WALKER
Volume XI
TESTIMONY
OF MAJ. GEN. EDWIN A. WALKER AND
GEN.
CLYDE J.
Maj.
Gen. Edwin A. Walker
Page
404
The testimony of Maj. Gen. Edwin A. Walker was taken at 4:15 p.m., on
July 23, 1964, in the office of the
Mr. LIEBELER. Let the record indicate that General Walker is being
represented by Clyde J. Watts of
Would you rise, general, and raise your right hand? Do you solemnly swear
that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and
nothing but the truth, so help you God?
General WALKER. I do.
Mr. LIEBELER. Please sit down. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am an
attorney on the President's Commission investigating the assassination of
President John F. Kennedy. I have been authorized to take your testimony by the
Commission pursuant to authority granted to the Commission by President
Johnson's Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and the joint
resolution of Congress No. 137.
Pursuant to the Commission's rules of procedure, you are entitled to be
represented by counsel. As the record now indicates, you are represented by
counsel, General Watts. I understand that you are appearing voluntarily before
the Commission in response to its request to give testimony touching upon
certain matters relating to Lee Harvey Oswald and to the assassination of
President Kennedy. Is that correct?
General WALKER. That is correct
Mr. LIEBELER. I would like to have the record show that prior to the
commencement of this deposition, a discussion between General Watts and General
Walker and myself was had in which we reached an agreement under which a copy of
the transcript of the testimony which will be taken here today will be made
available here at the office of the U.S. attorney for examination by General
Walker and by his counsel. They will be given an opportunity to make whatever
changes in the testimony may be necessary, so that the transcript reflects
accurately what happened here today.
We also agreed and confirmed in a telephone conversation with Mr. Rankin,
the general counsel for the Commission, that as soon as a copy can reasonably be
made available, within 2 or 3 days after this transcript has been signed by
General Walker and approved by me, a copy of the transcript will be made
available to General Walker at his expense. It may be purchased from the court
reporter here in
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proper
at that time to give the general a corrected copy. Would you state your full
name for the record, please?
General WALKER. Edwin A. Walker. A stands for
Mr. LIEBELER. What is your address?
General WALKER.
Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you lived there?
General WALKER. I believe since December of 1961 or January of 1962. I am
not sure of the month I moved in.
Mr. LIEBELER. I don't think we have to indicate a great deal of your
background for the record, since I think we all know who you are, but you are a
retired major general, are you not?
General WALKER. No. I am former major general, now resigned from the
Mr. LIEBELER. You resigned from the Army. Where were you originally born
and raised, general?
General WALKER. At
Mr. LIEBELER. Since your resignation from the Army and your taking up
residence in
General WALKER. Patriotic and political endeavors.
Mr. LIEBELER. It is my understanding that on the evening of April 10,
1963, some person fired a shot at you while you were in your home on
General WALKER. That is correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell
us the circumstances surrounding that event, as you can now recall them?
General WALKER. I was sitting behind my desk. It was right at 9 o'clock,
and most of the lights were on in the house and the shades were up. I was
sitting down behind a desk facing out from a corner, with my head over a pencil
and paper working on my income tax when I heard a blast and a crack right over
my head.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did you do then?
General WALKER. I thought--we had been fooling with the screens on the
house and I thought that possibly somebody had thrown a firecracker, that it
exploded right over my head through the window right behind me. Since there is a
church back there, often there are children playing back there. Then I looked
around and saw that the screen was not out, but was in the window, and this
couldn't possibly happen, so I got up and walked around the desk and looked back
where I was sitting and I saw a hole in the wall which would have been to my
left while I was sitting to my right as I looked back, and the desk was
catercornered in the corner up against this wall. I noticed there was a hole in
the wall, so I went upstairs and got a pistol and came back down and went out
the back door, taking a look to see what might have happened.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you find anything outside that you could relate to this
attack on you?
General WALKER. No, sir; I couldn't. As I crossed a window coming
downstairs in front, I saw a car at the bottom of the church alley just making a
turn onto Turtle Creek. The car was unidentifiable. I could see the two back
lights, and you have to look through trees there, and I could see it moving out.
This car would have been about at the right time for anybody that was making a
getaway.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now as I understand it, there is an alley that runs
directly at the rear of your house; is that correct?
General WALKER. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Does that alley run directly into
General WALKER. No, sir; it joins with another alley, and it joins with
the street called Avondale.
Mr. LIEBELER. So that to get----
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General WALKER. At one end is Avondale, which runs into Turtle Creek
going downhill east, and at the other end it goes into the parking lot of the
church. As you enter that parking lot from my alley, if you turn directly right,
you go down the church alley going into Turtle Creek, and that is where the car
was going down that I referred to, and it was just making the turn out of the
church alley.
Mr. LIEBELER. The alley that runs into Turtle Creek?
General WALKER. No; directly from the church alley into the Turtle Creek
main boulevard. Now, there is another alley right at the entrance of my alley to
the church parking lot, which runs straight west practically to
Mr. LIEBELER. Now when you got that pistol, did you go out the back door
of your house?
General WALKER. I went out the back door.
Mr. LIEBELER. You went into the alley?
General WALKER. I went about halfway out to the alley.
Mr. LIEBELER. From that point you could observe this car that was just
turning?
General WALKER. No, sir. I observed that--it was already gone--I observed
that from the window upstairs as I came down with the pistol. I could see out
the south window, front and left.
Mr. LIEBELER. I would imagine that you assumed that that car had gone
from the church parking lot down the alley and was at that point entering
General WALKER. That is correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see which direction it turned?
General WALKER. Left, going north.
Mr. LIEBELER. Were you able to make any kind of identification of the
automobile at all?
General WALKER. None at all.
Mr. LIEBELER. Were you able to see how many people were in it?
General WALKER. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did it seem to be leaving in a hurry, or was it just
debarking?
General WALKER. There was no way to tell, because from the upstair's
windows you were looking through trees at the car and I probably wouldn't have
seen it unless I had seen the two taillights of it. It only has to go a few feet
and it is beyond the bank where you can hardly see.
Mr. LIEBELER. I show you a photograph which is a copy of a photograph
that has been marked Commission Exhibit No. 1008, and ask you if you can
identify that picture, or tell us what is portrayed in it.
General WALKER. Well, it looks like an old worn
out picture of the wall
beside my desk and the shot
hole as it appeared. It is not really a picture. They
used, evidently had plastered this silver foil-type peculiar stuff on the wall
previously and it is still there.
Mr. LIEBELER. But this does show the hole in the wall over your desk that
was made by the bullet that struck the wall; is that correct?
General WALKER. As far as I can identify it, that is what it looks like.
I could take the picture and probably match it up with those flowers. It is a
flower arrangement on this silver foil on the wall.
Mr. LIEBELER. That looks like your wallpaper, doesn't it?
General WALKER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. I show you a copy of a picture that has been marked as
Commission Exhibit No. 1007, and ask you if you can recognize what is shown in
that picture.
General WATTS. Can we go off
the record a minute?
Mr. LIEBELER. Certainly.
(Discussion off the record.)
General WALKER. Yes; I can identify this picture.
Mr. LIEBELER. What is it, generally?
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General WALKER. It is an outside picture taken looking into the house,
taken from the west. The camera pointed east and took the house, and it shows
the shot and the broken glass in the window.
Mr. LIEBELER. The window of your home?
General WALKER. The window of my home at
Mr. LIEBELER. That is the window through which the shot was fired at you
on April 10, 1963?
General WALKER. That is correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is it possible to see your desk?
General WALKER. Yes; you can see the chair. Let's go off the record a
minute.
Mr. LIEBELER. Let's stay on the record. It is all right.
General WALKER. All right, what I had mixed up, I never knew anybody got
a picture of me pointing at anything, and that looks like my hand. I didn't know
this photographer was outside at the time. I was thinking the picture was taken
from the inside, but I see it perfectly now and it is from the outside. This
looks like there is a table here, from this window, and in the corner running
that way.
Mr. LIEBELER. Just inside the window?
General WALKER. Just inside the window. Then there is a space between
that and the desk. Then the desk is here at an angle across this corner, and
that looks like the chair. No; I am not sure. I did have a chair in between me
and the table, which may be that chair. It is possible that you are not seeing
the desk chair. There are two windows in this wall, but those are too close to
be the windows. That is one of those panels, I suspect, like the flower panel.
The window is still further back here.
Mr. LIEBELER. So it is not possible to see your desk from that picture?
General WALKER. That picture is taken at this angle, see.
Mr. LIEBELER. So you can't really see your desk?
General WALKER. I would say my desk is back in that corner.
Mr. LIEBELER. But it would be directly, if you stood at the window and
looked straight through the window, you would be able to see your desk across
the room?
General WALKER. That is correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was your desk directly across the room from the window, or
was it sitting cater
cornered?
General WALKER. It was sitting cater
cornered in the corner on the
opposite side of the room. I was facing out over the desk toward the center of
the room.
Mr. LIEBELER. When the shot was fired?
General WALKER. That is correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. So that you were almost facing the window at the time the
shot was fired; is that correct? Looking sideways?
General WALKER. No; I was looking to the center of the room.
Mr. LIEBELER. Sideways to the window? I am trying to drive at what kind
of shot the man had at you. Was he shooting at you from the side, from the back,
or from the front? I think it would be from the side.
General WALKER. More from the side than the front. Definitely from the
side but a little at an angle, because I was facing the center of the room.
Mr. LIEBELER. Right. I show you a copy of a photograph that has been
marked Commission Exhibit No. 1006, and ask you if this is not also a picture of
the window through which the shot was fired showing where the shot had
apparently hit the sash at one point?
General WALKER. That looks like the window and where the shot was fired
through the window into the room. It certainly must be the same shot.
Mr. LIEBELER. It purports to be a photograph that was turned over to the
Commission by the police department and it purports to be a picture of that
window.
General WALKER. That is the same shot then.
Mr. LIEBELER. The bullet apparently actually hit a portion of the window
frame before it went through. Does that accord with your recollection?
General WALKER. The bullet went through the screen frame.
Then it went through a portion of the window frame, and a portion of the
glass.
Mr. LIEBELER. I show you a copy of a photograph that has been marked
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Commission
Exhibit No. 1009, and ask you if this is not in fact a picture of the next room.
General WALKER. To closer identify that further, the screen frame has a
crosspiece in the center also, and the bullet went through the crosspiece in the
screen and then hit both the window frame and the glass.
Mr. LIEBELER. Commission Exhibit No. 1009 is a picture of the room next
to the one in which you were sitting, and shows some literature that was stored
and the place where the bullet came out.
General WALKER. That identifies the next room where the bullet went
through the wall by my desk and came out in the next room. The bullet was picked
up lying on a piece of the literature there.
Mr. LIEBELER. I have here a photograph which I am marking as Walker
Exhibit No. 1, and which I will initial for the purpose of identification, and
ask you to do the same so that we have no confusion as to the identification of
that picture.
(General Walker initials.)
Mr. LIEBELER. Now are you able to tell from looking at that picture what
it shows?
General WALKER. Yes; I can identify this picture. It is the backyard of
my house at 4011 Turtle Creek. It is a view from a position taken near the west
fence line, taken of the rear of my house, camera pointed east. It shows the
fence running down on the left side between my rented property, and the church
property.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you see the room in which you were sitting when this
shot was fired at you in that picture. I call your attention to where the police
officer is standing. There is a police officer standing over there in front of a
window, isn't there?
General WALKER. I can see the corner of the house. The window is right in
here.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now you have indicated that where the policeman is standing
in this Walker Exhibit No. 1, is part of the entrance to the house, but that is
not the room that you were sitting in at the time the shot was fired at you? You
were sitting in a room that is not even visible in this picture, because it is
behind some bushes and trees that appear to the left foreground of the picture;
is that correct?
General WALKER. That is correct. The policeman is to the left--to the
right. His position is to the right.
Mr. LIEBELER. As you face the picture?
General WALKER. Of the room I was sitting in.
Mr. LIEBELER. You can't actually see the window through which the shot
came in that picture?
General WALKER. Not in this picture, you can't see the window.
Mr. LIEBELER. The Dallas Police Department, of course, sent officers out
to investigate this after the shot was fired at you, did they not?
General WALKER. That is correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. You got out in the backyard and reviewed the possibilities,
to try and figure out what happened with them at that time, and specifically I
wonder----
General WALKER. Seems to me I talked to them in the room first and showed
them around. I believe I did. I can't recall whether they asked me out or not.
There wasn't much to tell them.
Mr. LIEBELER. Were you able to determine the spot from which it appeared
the shot had been fired?
General WALKER. We lined up the shot, the police did, and I noticed they
worked this whole area back here to the fence, and even went out into the alley
to find the lattice fence that sits right here.
Mr. LIEBELER. You mean the area immediately behind the picture?
General WALKER. Just behind the camera that took this picture.
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes;
General WALKER. I was convinced there wasn't any doubt the shot was fired
about where this camerman was standing, or a little bit behind him and outside
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the
lattice fence, probably firing through the fence which had spaces in it, squares
of about 4 to 6 inches.
Certainly the lineup of the holes in the two, in the window and in the
wall, gives the direction. The distance would be questionable to this point,
based on the information I have.
Mr. LIEBELER. I hand you a photograph that I have marked
Mr. LIEBELER. Now that in fact is a photograph, is it not, of the fence
to which you have just referred?
General WALKER. Yes; it is.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you think that the shot was probably from the other
side of that fence, behind the fence as we face it, and very likely the rifle
was rested on one of the slats and fired through it, is that correct?
I suggested that this picture was taken from inside the yard. General
Watts pointed out it was very likely taken looking from the alley, so if this
picture had been taken at the time the man was shooting, he would be in that
picture very likely with his back toward the camera with the rifle through the
fence?
General WALKER. If he fired through the fence, he would very likely have
been right in this picture, that is correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. Well, now, when I look at Walker Exhibit No. 1, since you
have indicated you thought that the shot was fired somewhere about where the
camera was located when this picture was taken, or slightly behind it on the
other side of the fence, I have considerable difficulty in that I can't see the
window through which the shot went. How could the shot have been fired from
there?
General WALKER. You can sit in the house and turn off your lights and
look right out through the fence and all the areas in the fence. It is just a
question of lighting. The difficulty you are having here is a question of
lighting of the picture, but if you are looking from the inside of the house,
you see that fence in many places, all places.
Mr. LIEBELER. So that this picture which was obviously taken at night
with a flash attachment does not give a true picture of the situation?
General WALKER. Not at all, because you can't see the house, and that is
why the picture with the policeman in it is so hard to identify. Windows don't
show there. There is a whole glassed-in porch to the left of the policeman, as
you look at this picture. There is a 5 by 6 glassed window there with a back
porch that sticks out a little bit that doesn't show.
Then there is a window beside that porch in the room I was sitting in.
Well, delete that. I don't think the cooler was in the window at that
time, but from that window, there is a space of 6 or 8 feet. Then you come to
the window that was fired through, and then there is 2 or 3 feet to the corner
of the house.
Then referring back to the picture we referred to, the policeman was in
you see the dark alley going down beside the house between the house and the
fence, which is the north side, in general, of the house.
Mr. LIEBELER. That picture, being
General WALKER. But I don't see how you could take a picture and see less
of the house, and it is definitely because of the lighting in the picture and
everything dark. The whole house is dark under the light, the way that picture
was taken, so that you see very little of the house except the policeman, what
he has of the light coming out behind him.
Mr. LIEBELER. Right. Now did you make any sudden movement on or about the
time that shot was fired?
General WALKER. None that I was aware of; no.
Just moving with a pencil and thoroughly engrossed in my income tax.
Mr. LIEBELER. How far is it from where you were sitting to the fence
where we think the shot was fired from? How many feet?
General WALKER. I would say 100 feet. I would say between 100 and 120
feet.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever say in words or substance after this shot was
fired at you that the guy must have been a lousy shot? That sounds like
something you might say, doesn't it?
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General WALKER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember saying that?
General WALKER. But I will tell you what I did think. I think I said
that, right. The police asked me to sit down. You want me to tell you?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.
General WALKER. The police asked me to sit down when I got there and they
went through the motions of lining up the shot from inside and outside.
And one policeman said,
"He couldn't have missed you."
And one said, a lieutenant I believe it was, said, "It was an
attempted assassination."
And I said, "What makes you call it that?" And he said,
"Because he definitely was out to get you."
And I said, "Your remark sounds like a natural remark." But as
I later was analyzing the thing, he couldn't see either with a scope or without
a scope. He couldn't see from his position any of the lattice work either in the
windows or in the screens because of the light. It would have looked like one
big lighted area, and he could have been a very good shot and just by chance he
hit the woodwork.
Mr. LIEBELER. Which he did in fact?
General WALKER. Which he did, and there was enough deflection in it to
miss me, except for slivers of the bullet, the casing of the bullet that went
into my arm laying on the desk--slivers of the shell jacket.
Mr. LIEBELER. I show you a photograph marked Commission Exhibit No. 2 and
ask you if you recognize the scene in that picture?
General WALKER. Yes; I identify this picture looking approximately south
down the alley, taken from about the entrance of where the alley enters the
church, a few steps short of where the alley enters the church parking area. It
is facing approximately south. Shows the back entrance to my back yard and the
tree and my garbage can and the lattice fence on the west.
Mr. LIEBELER. The alley that runs down there is the alley that runs
directly behind your house, isn't that correct?
General.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recognize that object in the background that looks
like a building maybe under construction?
General WALKER. That is the bigger apartment house down south of me.
Mr. LIEBELER. I show you a photograph marked Commission Exhibit No. 1003,
that is a copy of Exhibit No. 1003, and ask you if that larger apartment
building shown in the right background of that picture is not in fact the same
building that is shown as being under construction in Commission Exhibit No. 2?
General WALKER. As well as I can identify it, it looks like the same
building.
Mr. LIEBELER. Looking further at Exhibit No. 1003, there is a house that
is circled and indicated by the letter "A." That is, in fact, your
house, is it not?
General WALKER. That is correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. And the street marked "E" is
General WALKER. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Of course, the whole picture is an aerial view of the
general vicinity of your house and the apartment building, is it not?
General WALKER. That is correct. And "H" would be Avondale.
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; that's right. And "G" is
General WALKER. That I don't know. Probably is.
The church alley shows up here going into Turtle Creek.
Mr. LIEBELER. Point that out to me, would you please?
General WALKER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. It is a little street that runs right between your house
and the big building immediately next to your house just outside the circle?
General WALKER. Which is the Mormon Church.
Mr. LIEBELER. This is the church, is that correct?
General WALKER. And the car was right here I referred to.
Mr. LIEBELER. Just turning from the church alley?
General WALKER. Just turning here, and turning this direction.
Mr. LIEBELER. Turning left up Turtle Creek?
General WALKER. Yes.
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Mr. LIEBELER. I show you a document, a picture which is a copy of
Commission Exhibit No. 5 and ask you if you recognize the scene portrayed in
that picture?
General WALKER. I recognize my house in this picture.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recognize anything else? Specifically, I draw your
attention to the automobile that is shown in there.
General WALKER. I do not recognize the car.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Charles Klihr?
General WALKER. Would you spell it again?
Mr. LIEBELER. I will spell it right in just a minute. K-l-i-h-r.
General WALKER. Not that spelling. I know a Charles Clyr. As I know the
spelling, it is C-l-y-r.
Mr. LIEBELER. Does he live out in
General WALKER. I think he does.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you recognize his address?
General WALKER. I wouldn't recognize his address. I don't recognize that
address. That could or couldn't be it.
Mr. LIEBELER. How about that car, do you recognize that as his car?
General WALKER. I don't
recognize that car.
Mr. LIEBELER. This gentleman that we may be talking about, we may be
talking about the same man, is a volunteer worker for you from time to time?
General WALKER. If it is the one I am referring to, he is in and out
quite often, right. He and his wife have helped me quite a bit.
Mr. LIEBELER. But you aren't able to identify that car as being his?
General WALKER. No; I am not.
Mr. LIEBELER. Does that car appear to be a 1957 Chevrolet? Or aren't you
able to tell by looking?
General WALKER. I am not able to tell. I am not very good on cars.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you indicate that to the very far left of this
photograph, Commission Exhibit No. 5, through these bushes there is a window,
and that is the window through which the shot was fired, is that correct?
General WALKER. That is correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. That is the window immediately left of the gasmeter there
as you look at the picture?
General WALKER. That is correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. You don't have any doubt that that is the back of your
house?
General WALKER. None at all. That is the back of the house.
Mr. LIEBELER. You have never seen that picture before, have you?
General WALKER. No; I haven't.
Mr. LIEBELER. I show you a photograph which is a copy of Commission
Exhibit No. 3. The photograph that I refer to is set forth in this copy, and I
refer specifically to the one denominated P-1 and ask you if you recognize the
scene portrayed therein.
General WALKER. Yes; I recognize that as the back of my house, a portion
of it.
Mr. LIEBELER. I have another photograph I have marked
General WALKER (initials). Can I look at it?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes, please. That is a picture of the back of your house,
too, isn't it?
General WALKER. Yes; it is.
Mr. LIEBELER. I have shown you another picture which is
General WALKER (initials). Yes; that is a picture of the alley looking
south toward the same apartment building we referred to before, down to where
the alley connects with Avondale showing the back fence and the entrance into my
backyard. I believe the picture is taken at a different date from the other one
we referred to, because the fence has been changed behind the house.
Mr. LIEBELER. That apartment is completed in the picture?
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General WALKER. That's right. There was work on the fence in the other
house and, also, the apartment building is in further advanced stage of
construction.
Mr. LIEBELER. In fact, it looks to be completed in
General WALKER. Yes; it does.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, I show you a series of photographs which are copies of
Commission Exhibits Nos. 998, 999, 1000, 1002, and 1004, and ask you if each and
every one is not, in fact, an aerial view of the general vicinity of your home
and surrounding area, and if the identification of landmarks in those pictures,
insofar as you can tell, is correct.
General WALKER. 998 is identification of my home. 1000 would certainly
include the area of my home. It is hard to identify the exact house marked
"A".
Mr. LIEBELER. Well, that big old apartment building is in there in 1000?
General WALKER. That is correct. So it is bound to include the area of my
home; 1002 is the area of my home, and it indicates my house; 1004 certainly
includes the area of my home, and it would be very difficult without further
study to definitely identify that as my home. They all include the area of my
home. My home definitely is in those pictures.
Mr. LIEBELER. You don't see any obvious mistakes, at least, as far as the
identification and the symbols on the pictures are concerned?
General WALKER. No; I don't.
Mr. LIEBELER. Going back to the record on this Klihr, it does appear, in
fact, to be K-l-i-h-r.
General WALKER. Why don't we ring the house and establish that that is
correct. LA 1-4415.
(General Watts called on phone and confirmed it was K-l-i-h-r.)
General WALKER. What is it?
General WATTS. K-l-i-h-r.
General WALKER. All right; .that is the original spelling you had?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.
General WALKER. OK; that is correct. It is Charles Klihr.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Robert Surrey?
General WALKER. Yes, I do.
Mr. LIEBELER. Has Mr. Surrey discussed with you the fact that on June 3,
1964, he was interviewed by an agent of the Federal Bureau of Investigation and
shown a picture, or a copy of a picture similar to Commission Exhibit No. 5,
which showed this automobile behind your house with the license plate
obliterated on it? Did he tell you he had been asked about that?
General WALKER. He told me about a picture being shown to him of the back
side of my house, and I believe he referred to it showing some automobile or
automobiles being behind the house, but I don't remember any reference to that
car or the hole in it. There wasn't any reference to that car, if that is a hole
in the car.
Mr. LIEBELER. I represent to you that Commission Exhibit No. 5 that we
have here is a copy of an original photograph, which in fact had a hole torn in
there right where the black part is on the car. The original picture itself has
a hole right through there.
General WALKER. Then it is not a hole in the car?
Mr. LIEBELER. No; it is a hole in the original photograph, of which this
thing I show you now is a copy.
General WALKER. Oh, I see.
Mr. LIEBELER. I thought exactly what you thought the first time I looked
at it; that that was a hole in the car. It is not. It is a hole in the picure.
General WALKER. He referred to being shown photographs with the back of
the premises and the car or something back there.
Mr. LIEBELER. But you don't remember him telling you that he was able to
identify this as Charles Klihr's car?
General WALKER. No; I don't remember that he identified the car.
Mr. LIEBELER Now, I understand that Mr. Surrey saw two men in the
vicinity of your house shortly before April 10, 1963, acting in a manner that he
regarded as suspicious. Did he report that to you at or about that time?
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General WALKER. He has reported that to me, and I don't remember the date
on which he did.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was it prior to the time that the shot was fired at you?
General WALKER. I can't recall.
Mr. LIEBELER. You have no recollection of the fact, if it is a fact, that
General WALKER. Yes; I do. I knew. He told me that he had come toward my
house and noticed a car, as I remember, parked on Avondale, and he went on by or
backed up or something and got out and came behind the car and saw two men
moving around in the area somewhere in the alley in the back part of my house.
Then he followed that car. They went down to the center of town, and he lost
them. I would suspect that he told me that the next morning, if not that night.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall whether or not you reported that to the
police?
General WALKER. Yes; that was called in to the police. As I recall, that
was. I believe there is a report at the house that it was called in to the
police. As I recall, it was, and I told them what we knew about it.
Mr. LIEBELER. As you reflect on that event, do you recall it was called
in to the police prior to the time the shot was fired?
General WALKER. As I reflect, it must have been called in either that
night or the next morning. I don't recall the exact time, but the police record
will show it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you make the call yourself, or did someone else do
that, if you remember?
General WALKER. As I recall, I made it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what kind of response you got from the
Dallas Police Department?
General WALKER. Seemed normal. Wasn't upset about it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, subsequent to April 10, 1963, of course, the Dallas
Police Department conducted an investigation of the attack on you; is that not
right?
General WALKER. Will you repeat that?
Mr. LIEBELER. The
General WALKER. Oh, subsequent to it; yes. Subsequent, right; they did.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did they discuss with you any possible suspects that they
might have come up with, any leads they had on it as to who might have been
involved?
General WALKER. I don't recall that they did. They may have, and I may
have told them who had been in and about around the house, or who had worked for
me. I don't recall this definitely, but the records will probably show.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any records like that here?
General WALKER. No; I don't.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did the name Lee Harvey Oswald come up in connection with
this investigation in any way at that time?
General WALKER. No; it didn't.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know William Duff?
General WALKER. I know who William Duff is under that name; yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. In fact, he lived in your house for a while and worked for
you as a batman?
General WALKER. Yes; that is what he calls himself; right.
Mr. LIEBELER. When did you first make the acquaintance of Mr. Duff?
General WALKER. He walked in the house late one evening and said he was
out of a job and out of a place to sleep, and I put him up and put him to work.
The date I would have to get for you; I don't remember.
Mr. LIEBELER. Well, was it sometime prior to April 10, 1963, in any
event?
General WALKER. Yes; it was.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was Duff living in your house at the time of the attack on
you?
General WALKER. No; he wasn't.
Mr. LIEBELER. About how long
had he been gone; can you remember?
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General WALKER. As general figures, I would say he worked about 3 months
for me, and he had been gone a month or two. I would have to verify these.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now the fact is that you suspected, possibly, that Duff
might have been involved in this attack on your life, didn't you?
General WALKER. I suspected that he might be involved.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you conducted an investigation of that possibility, did
you not?
General WALKER. That is correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. In connection with that investigation, two detectives from
General Watts' office, one, Kester, and one, Roberts, came down to Dallas and
engaged in an investigation, did they not?
General WALKER. They did.
Mr. LIEBELER. Will you tell us about that, please?
General WALKER. They were in and out, as I remember, in the
investigation, and in contact with my house from time to time during it, and
even drove Duff around in a car, finally, and he explained how he would have
shot at me if he had intended to, or if he had any such intentions.
General WATTS. I got a call--I don't remember the exact date but I do
have a record of it. I got a call from Mrs. Kenecht in General Walker's office
to the effect that an anonymous telephone call came in from some lady who
advised Mrs. Kenecht that this boy Duff had been going with the lady's daughter
and had bragged to the daughter that he had been in on the shooting at General
Walker.
So I sent these two investigators whose names were just mentioned,
connected with our office. They are ex-detectives or policemen from the Oklahoma
City Police Department and do freelance investigating. I sent them down here
with a tape recorder to verify as much as they could from Duff, because we were
very apprehensive that he might take another shot at
We couldn't get Duff to admit that he actually fired the shot, but he
professed to readiness to stage another attempt if someone would raise $5,000.
It is my recollection that the tape recording was turned over to .the Dallas
Police Department.
Mr. LIEBELER. Let me ask: Were you, General Walker, generally familiar
with the events at the time, and reports were made to you about the progress?
General WALKER. I was familiar with the progress of the investigation and
got a final copy of it. I thought it solved nothing, but Duff was telling his
usual lies.
Mr. LIEBELER. General Watts' description of these events is accurate, to
the best of your knowledge; is that correct?
General WALKER. That is correct, except that I do not agree with General
Watts' statement that Duff had implicated himself in the attack on me by
statements to the daughter of this woman who called Mrs. Kenecht. My information
is only to the effect that the girls mother was upset about her daughter's
friendship with Duff. As far as I know, she never said that Duff admitted being
involved in the attack on me that occurred on April 10, 1963.
Mr. LIEBELER. General Watts, you indicated you had some additional
information on Mr. Duff.
General WATTS. Yes; one Friday evening--I could get the exact date--I was
dictating in my bedroom at home, and I looked up and there stood Duff whom I
hadn't seen since he had worked at General Walker's, but whom we had
investigated, and he told me a rather weird story.
He had gone to the Army and was stationed at
He professed to me that he had been living at Fort Sill, although not
under arrest, but without pay since the previous December, and had no funds, and
was about to be discharged. So in order to keep tab on him, I arranged for him
to get a job with a friend, Paul Blakeley, for whom he worked for a short
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time,
and later got him another job with a contractor, W. H. Thompson, for whom he is,
as far as I know, still working. And after things get quieted down, I fully
intend to see what information I can get out of Duff, if you can depend on what
he says, and if he knows anything, he has never told anybody up to this date.
Mr. LIEBELER. In fact, the inference to be drawn is that Duff is an
extremely unreliable individual, so far as telling the truth?
General WALKER. I wouldn't believe anything the boy would say unless it
was verified.
General WATTS. I did call
Mr. LIEBELER. As far as the attempt on General
General WATTS. That is right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Well, now, what makes you think that he does know something
about that?
Let me say this. Since this is almost a friendly, if I may say so,
session, I assume that we can take it that the remarks that you are making will
be under oath, is that correct? And you will swear to that?
General WATTS. Yes.
General WALKER. They should be identified as that of my attorney because
they don't necessarily agree with my opinion.
General WATTS. My opinion and General Walker's don't frequently jibe.
Mr. LIEBELER. Let us swear you. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony
you have given and you will give throughout the rest of this deposition will be
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
General WATTS. I do.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you indicated that you had some belief that Duff might
know something about the attempt on General Walker that he hasn't told you. Do
you have any basis for that?
General WATTS. My only basis is suspicion. First; his generally
unreliable nature. Second; I have never fully satisfied myself as to the
accuracy of the investigation these boys made where Duff undoubtedly had made
some kind of an alarming statement to this unknown woman who called in. We have
never been able to locate or identify her. I have never reconciled his tape
recorder statement that he had not shot at
Mr. LIEBELER. General Walker, were you satisfied, or did you reach a
conclusion as a result of these investigations or any other way, as to Duff's
involvement in the attack made on you on April 10. Do you think he knows
anything about it that he hasn't told us, or do you think he was involved in it
in any way? Do you have any evidence to indicate that he was?
General WALKER. I also know
that I wouldn't believe 90 percent of what Duff said about anything. I have come
to no conclusion even after the investigation that he was even involved. Knowing
Duff; I felt that if the investigators were a little bit naive, they got tricked
more than Duff got tricked.
Mr. LIEBELER. But these investigators weren't able to develop anything
that led you to think that Duff had been involved in the attack on you made on
April 10, 1963, isn't that right?
General WALKER. It led me to believe what?
Mr. LIEBELER. That Duff had been involved in the attack on you.
General WALKER. According to his fantastic stories, it might lead to the
belief that he had been involved, like my attorney says, but Duff is so
fantastic that I don't believe a word he says.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any evidence other than the statement that Duff
is alleged to have made to his girl friend that would indicate that he was
involved in the attack on you? Do you have any indication that he was involved
in it at all?
General WALKER. None; other than, as I remember what he has stated, and
there is something else. And based on Duff's nature.
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Mr. LIEBELER. You wouldn't believe what he said?
General WALKER. He never appeared a vicious fellow, and I rather liked
the guy for what he was supposed to do at the time I had him, until I realized
that nothing was truthful that he said, and I felt that he had left feeling
friendly, actually, except that he left by having been ushered to the door while
I was gone and told not to come back.
General WATTS. He truly professes to feeling very friendly to General
Walker. I have never confronted him with the fact that the investigators have a
tape recording that he was anxious to get a shot at
General WALKER. It is certainly true, to further my counsel statement,
that Duff certainly lived in the area of night clubs and beer joints and so
forth, and he could still know something and not be involved himself.
General WATTS. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, have you any information of any kind that would
indicate or suggest who actually took that shot at you?
General WALKER. None; other than the indications that have been brought
up here with respect to Duff. He did appear back in my house at one time after
this, just walked in. Which I don't bring up now as an idea that that gave
further indication that he did. I can't seem to recall exactly what the purpose
of his visit was, but I wasn't very warm toward him and he was soon out the door
after talking to him maybe 5 or 10 minutes.
Other than Duff and what we have covered here, the only indications of
anybody that might have taken a shot at me is what has been said and expressed
by other people regarding Oswald's connection in the case of shooting at me.
Mr. LIEBELER. So aside from Duff and aside from what has been made public
as regards Oswald's involvement, you have no other leads or conclusions or ideas
as to who might have taken the shot at you on April 10, 1963?
General WALKER. No; I am pretty well blocked by you all and the fact
that--not particularly you, as the FBI having taken the information on the case
from the city police, and it is difficult to find who is now responsible for an
open case, and also the lack of contact with my counsel at any time regarding
Oswald's position in this from the time the shot was fired or even after the
events of November 22, 1963.
Mr. LIEBELER. Well, of course, all that information will be made public
eventually, and aside from that, the basic thrust of my question at this moment
is, you don't have any other information other than what we have already covered
here that would give us any ideas as to who might have done that, is that
correct?
General WALKER. That is correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any basis for believing that there was any
connection between Duff and Oswald?
General WALKER. None at all.
Mr. LIEBELER. You never even heard of Oswald?
General WALKER. Only with respect to what we have passed over with regard
to what we have said about Duff, and we have heard said about Oswald. I have no
information of Oswald's name ever being mentioned in my house, and I had never
heard of the name with regard to the individual we are referring to at any time
since I have been in
Mr. LIEBELER. You have never heard of any connection until the
assassination?
General WALKER. Until his activities of November 22. More specifically,
no knowledge or no reference of any indication that Duff was in any way
connected with Oswald. I still think that the information that Kirk Coleman gave
is very relevant to this case, and I would like to say as far as I am concerned,
our efforts are practically blocked. I
would like to see at least a capability of my counsel being able to talk to
these witnesses freely and that you or the FBI give a release on them with
respect to being able to discuss it as it involves me.
Mr. LIEBELER. Well, has your counsel attempted to talk to Mr. Coleman and
Mr. Coleman refused to talk to him? So far as I know, this Commission----
General WATTS. I never tried to talk to Coleman.
General WALKER. The word we got is, the boy has been told not to say
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anything.
That may not be the direct information, but I think you will find it about what
the situation is.
General WATTS. This is off the record. (Discussion off the record.)
Mr. LIEBELER. The last question was, has your counsel attempted to talk
to Mr. Coleman and Mr. Coleman refused to talk to him?
General WALKER. No; I have no knowledge of my counsel trying to speak to
him, but I was told by others that tried to get to him that he has been advised
and wasn't talking, and that he had been advised not to talk.
Mr. LIEBELER. When was that, General Walker, do you remember?
General WALKER. Oh, it's been at least 3 or 4 months ago.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know who told him he wasn't supposed to talk to
anybody?
General WALKER. No; I don't. It is my understanding some law enforcement
agency in some echelon. But the important thing we would like to find out is who
is responsible for the open case, if it is back in the hands of the city police
or if it is still held under advisement, and as soon as it got back into their
hands, we can go to dealing with them. Until it does, under your requirements,
if there are such requirements, the question becomes when can we get into this
further?
Mr. LIEBELER. I want the record to indicate that the Commission, to my
knowledge at least, and I think I would know about it, has never told anybody
not to talk to you about the attack on you in any way, shape or form whatsoever,
and has no intention of doing so. That is point 1. Point
2 is that the Commission is conducting its own investigation into this matter,
and has requested the Federal Bureau of Investigation to conduct an
investigation into the matter, which it has done at the request of the
Commission, and the report will include a finding one way or the other as to
whether Oswald was the man who was involved in this attack on you.
General WALKER. It will have such a finding?
Mr. LIEBELER. It certainly will, and will be a complete disclosure.
General WALKER. Then it must be handling the case, because we have
information that the city police turned all the information over to the FBI and
there was nothing for us to deal with them about.
My counsel went to the city police on this. Then the FBI definitely said
that they had turned it over to the Commission, and then they were under
whatever wraps there were, but wraps that kept them from carrying on any
development of the cases.
Mr. LIEBELER. No activity of this Commission has ever foreclosed any
other law enforcement agency from doing anything that they saw fit to do. The
FBI conducts its investigation in any way it sees fit, and the Dallas Police
Department does the same thing.
General WALKER. I think we should have a round robin discussion with the
city police, FBI, and yourself, if you all have what you have stated, so that we
will understand this too, and place this case and the Warren Reynolds case back
where they should be. I would think that we should get together to establish who
is responsible for the open cases in the city of
Mr. LIEBELER. Well, the President's Commission on the investigation of
the assassination of President Kennedy is certainly not responsible for open
cases in the city of
General WALKER. Then I want to go on the record that the city police has
misused the Commission and also the FBI.
Mr. LIEBELER. I have no knowledge of that.
General WALKER. I think it is--I can't straighten it out and neither can
my counsel. I think it is perfectly obvious that somebody is misusing somebody,
the fact that we have no starting point and this is an open case, and this is
true with Warren Reynolds as well as myself.
Mr. LIEBELER. I am glad you brought that subject up. Tell us what you
know about that.
General WALKER. I certainly will.
Mr. LIEBELER. Before you do, I think I did hear the witness come in out
here. Go ahead.
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General WALKER. I would prefer you to question me on which way you want
me to discuss this case and I will answer what is necessary.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Warren Reynolds?
General WALKER. I do know Warren Reynolds.
Mr. LIEBELER. When did you meet him?
General WALKER. My first contact with Warren Reynolds was by telephone, I
would say sometime in the area of 8 or 10 days after he was shot through the
temple. I thought I had the date of that, or the press release, but I didn't
seem to bring it with me. But you probably have that date.
It doesn't make much
difference. I would say sometime I saw a notice in the paper when it came out to
the effect that Warren Reynolds had been shot in the head and a Latin type was
seen running away.
I left on a trip and came
back to the house, and I was curious about Warren Reynolds and I asked somebody
in the house to call and see about Reynolds, and was told to call the hospital.
I found out that day finally
after calling out to his place of business, found out he was out walking around
that afternoon. I think we found out he had just been released from the hospital
that day. I would say that was about
10 days from the time he was fired at.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have the date of that?
General WALKER. That was approximately January 23 or January 24, 1964,
and within a day or two I had a telephone conversation over there.
I talked to Warren Reynolds finally and he said he wanted to talk to me
or said he would talk to me, and I asked him the circumstances of what had
happened to him.
Within a day or two I would say--I said, "If you want to see me, you
can."
And
he came to the house and discussed what had happened to him with regard to being
shot through the head, how it all happened, and I have been quite interested in
his case.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, am I correct in understanding that you initiated the
contact with Mr. Reynolds?
General WALKER. I did.
Mr. LIEBELER. How many times have you seen him?
General WALKER. Sir?
Mr. LIEBELER. When was the first time you actually saw him in person, if
you ever did, and I believe that you did.
General WALKER. I don't remember the exact date, but a week after the
first telephone conversation, within a week or so after the first telephone
conversation, I believe he dropped by the house with his brother.
Mr. LIEBELER. How many times have you seen him in person altogether?
General WALKER. I believe he has been in the house twice.
Mr. LIEBELER. You have also had various telephone conversations with him,
isn't that right, General Walker?
General WALKER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. In fact, you talked on the telephone with him yesterday
noon, didn't you?
General WALKER. Very likely.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall whether you did?
General WALKER. I talked to him yesterday, yes. I don't remember the
exact time.
Mr. LIEBELER. Will you tell us the substance, the general substance of
your conversation with him over this
period that you have been in contact with him.
General WALKER. I was very much interested in his case and why they would
have, why there would have been an attempt on his life, since, according
to his story, you might say he was the last one to see Oswald in the domestic
state after he had killed Police Officer Tippit.
I have had these conversations with him to get all the details I could
regarding why he thought he was shot at or who shot at him and what the police
were doing about it, and how he felt about it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate to you the first time that he talked to you
that he thought there was some connection between the attack on him and his
observation of Oswald?
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General WALKER. Pardon?
Mr. LIEBELER. Following the time that Oswald shot Officer Tippit?
General WALKER. Will you repeat the question?
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Reynolds tell you that he thought there was some
connection between the attack on him and Oswald killing Tippit?
General WALKER. We discussed that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that he thought there was a connection
between the two?
General WALKER. He seemed to think there might be.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think there is?
General WALKER. Yes; I do.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any evidence to indicate that there is?
General WALKER. I think there is a definite--I don't know that you could
call it evidence but you can anticipate that people would like to shut up
anybody that knows anything about this case. People right here in
Mr. LIEBELER. In fact, he doesn't know very much, does he?
General WALKER. He would become a very good example, regardless of what
he knew, to let everybody know that they better keep their mouths shut.
Mr. LIEBELER. Well, now, wouldn't it be fair to say that that is pure
speculation on your part?
General WALKER. Yes, but everything is speculation until you prove it or
disprove it.
Mr. LIEBELER. But my basic problem is this, and I am not just trying to
harass you.
I want to know if you have any evidence or can give us some idea on how
to approach this problem to find out if there is any connection, because the
Commission would certainly like to know if there is.
General WALKER. I would be much interested in the hanging of the woman in
the prison here in the cell that said she had worked in the Carousel Club, her
only claim to fame, who I believe was the same woman, as I remember my
information at this point, was the same woman that was driven over to this used
car lot where the Reynolds brothers worked.
Mr. LIEBELER. Well, now, in point of fact, your primary source of
information in connection with this whole thing is the newspaper story written
by Bob Considine; isn't that right? That is where you first got all this
information?
General WALKER. He did cite this case; that is correct. That was one of
the pieces of information I had.
Mr. LIEBELER. You cited from this newspaper story and the statements that
Warren Reynolds has made to you, and your observations about what you have been
told about the facts regarding this stripper.
Are these the only things that led you to believe, plus your other
statement about keeping people quiet, are the only things that led you to
believe there might be some connection between these two events? Isn't that a
fair statement?
General WALKER. It would seem significant to me from Reynolds' story that
he was only checked by the law enforcement agencies 2 days before he was shot,
that somebody was watching what was going on.
There are many things that would make me go into a lot of leads which no
doubt make you all go into a lot of leads. Probably what you already know, but
just to say that one particular thing is the only thing that makes me curious
about this attempt on Warren's life as the one out of a hundred of used car lot
operators in Dallas, to attempt the assassination of Warren who had seen Oswald,
makes this quite unusual.
Mr. LIEBELER. I want you to tell us right now on the record all of the
things that you can think of that led you to believe that there is some
connection between these two events, in addition to the ones that you have
already suggested.
General WALKER. I have just referred to one.
Mr. LIEBELER. That one that you referred to is the----
General WALKER The fact that there has not been, as far as I know, any
finding of the man who attempted to kill him, is another one.
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Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned previously that Reynolds had said that the
law enforcement--you didn't say Reynolds said it--you said that you understood
that the law enforcement officers had checked Reynolds just 2 days before he had
been shot; is that correct?
General WALKER. That is correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. That is what Reynolds told you?
General WALKER. That is correct. I believe he referred to them as FBI.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any other indications of any possible
relationship between these things, that would help the Commission try to find
out if there is a relationship between these events?
General WALKER. I don't think of anything else; no.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now you sent a telegram to the Commission suggesting that
we question Warren Reynolds?
General WALKER. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. As you probably know, of course, we have questioned him
yesterday.
General WALKER., Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss Mr. Reynolds' appearance with us, with him?
General WALKER. I did. He called me on the telephone and we discussed it.
He said you were a very nice young man.
Mr.
LIEBELER. Thank you, General Walker. Thank Mr. Reynolds.
You didn't say that. That is what he said. That isn't what you said.
General WALKER. I may call him tonight and tell him the same thing. I
think we are working in the same effort and same direction. I haven't done
anything to hide on this thing. I do ask that you all get the chain of command
straightened out here, or chain of responsibility with respect to the case.
Mr. LIEBELER. Those problems
came up many times because there isn't any real chain of command or
responsibility between these people. We don't have very much to do with the
Dallas Police Department.
General WALKER. When they pass things to the FBI and the FBI is
responsible to you, then it gives me a feeling it is probably out of their
hands. Certainly they have used that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now do you have any knowledge or any information that would
indicate that Oswald was involved in a conspiracy of any type on the
assassination of the President?
General WALKER. I think he designated his own conspiracy when he said he
was a member of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee. That to me is a definite
recognition of conspiracy.
Mr. LIEBELER. Suggesting that
the Fair Play for Cuba Committee was involved?
General WALKER. I would say as a member of the Fair Play for Cuba
Committee, it could not be segregated from being involved in it when one of its
members does it, who thinks like they do.
Mr. LIEBELER. Well, that is of course, your view. My question of you is
this. Do you have any evidence or any knowledge that would either the
involvement of organization in a conspiracy or plot to assassinate the
President.
The fact that Oswald may have been a member of this organization, which
he was, of course, is a fact that can be viewed from many different ways.
But my question to you is somewhat different from that, and that is, do
you know of or have any evidence to indicate that this organization or any other
organization or any other person was involved with Oswald in the assassination
of the President?
General WALKER. My answer to you is that I have exactly the evidence that
you have, which is evidence that it was involved in the conspiracy, he said he
was a member of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee, and I consider the objectives
of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee a Communist activity a conspiracy.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know if anyone discussed the assassination with
prior to the time that he assassinated the President, if he did the
assassination: do you have any indication of that?
General WALKER. I have no personal knowledge that they did.
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Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any indication that they did?
General WALKER. I certainly
do.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us what that is?
General WALKER. The indications seem to be not only mine, but all over
the country that Rubenstein and Oswald had some association.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you indicate to us what it was?
General WALKER. Well, I are wondering about one thing, how Rubenstein can
take his car in to be fixed and Oswald can sign the ticket and pick up the car.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now can you tell us when and where that happened?
General WALKER. I haven't been able to verify that it happened for sure,
but I have been told that it happened.
Mr. LIEBELER. Who told you that?
General WALKER. My information came from a repairman, from another fellow
to a friend of mine, to me.
Mr. LIEBELER. Could you give us the name of the person?
General WALKER. I don't think it is necessary. I think you have all the
information, because the information also includes the fact that the records
were picked up in the repair shop.
Mr. LIEBELER. Whether we have the information or not, I am asking you if
you know the name of that repairman who said that Oswald said he picked up his
car?
General WALKER. No; I don't.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know the name of the garage?
General WALKER. No; I don't. As I remember, it was a hotel garage.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you give us the name of the people that brought the
information to you, so it can be traced back to this source? Who the garage-man
is, apparently as you say, that it came from a garageman somewhere.
General WALKER. No; I think your sources are better than mine on this.
Mr. LIEBELER. That is not my question. My question is, do you know their
names?
General WALKER. Yes; I do, but I am not telling.
Mr. LIEBELER. So you are not going to tell us the names of these people?
General WALKER. Hold up. Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
General WALKER. We are all working in the best interests of this thing. I
don't see where my sources of information have to be revealed. You know whether
the information is any good or not, and I don't see any reason to get any more
people involved than are already involved in it. The information is either
correct or incorrect, and can be substantiated by your Commission, or it is not.
This that I am telling you is the information I have got. Now, if you all
find out that it is absolutely necessary to your information, but revelation of
the names of the people isn't necessary to your information with regard to the
assassination. I think we have covered the assassination, and--as helpful as I
can be--don't think I wouldn't be delighted to see exactly all the truth that
can probably come out of it, come out of it.
Mr. LIEBELER. All we are asking you to do is give us whatever information
you have that can help us in this investigation.
General WALKER. That I think we have covered, haven't we?
Mr. LIEBELER. I don't know whether we have or not.
General WALKER. If you find out you need the further information that
will really help the assassination story--we will leave it like this--I will do
the best I can to cooperate on it, but I don't think it is necessary to reveal
all the sources of my information, and the story which you all should have the
basic facts. The basic facts are the records on the story and you either know
whether or not they are true or not. I haven't done all this investigation.
Mr. LIEBELER. Well, I am not able to make a determination as to whether
or not the information that you have would be helpful to the Commission's work
because I don't know what information you have.
General WALKER. Let's leave that, because if it is in the best interest
of finding anything, that there is a hole in their findings, why we will reveal
it.
Mr. LIEBELER. I am going to let the question stand. I do ask you to tell
me
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who
advised you or who apprised you of information that Oswald picked up Jack Ruby's
car, because I am not able to make a determination as to whether or not that
information would be worthless to the Commission. It might be helpful and it it
might be that these people should be questioned by people on the Commission
staff or by the FBI. So for that reason, I am compelled to let the question
stand, and I do renew my request for you to give me the answer.
General WALKER. I will answer that at some later date if you find it
necessary, I will reconsider it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, aside from the matter we have just discussed, can you
tell us what other common acquaintances Mr. Ruby and Mr. Oswald had, as that is
the statement that started all this? You indicated that Ruby and Oswald had
common acquaintances.
General WALKER. I thought DeMar's statements--I believe the man is
De-Mar--were very interesting, and they were only by hearsay from the newspaper,
if you call that hearsay.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any other indication that Oswald and Ruby were
connected?
General WALKER. I am going back on the other question. I say it was only
from newspapers. They have been also from the owner or editor of the newspaper,
who may have told me that his reporter had been in touch with DeMar. I believe
the town is on the Tennessee-Kentucky border or somewhere up there. I don't
recall the name of the town where he was at the time.
Mr. LIEBELER. This is DeMar that was up there?
General WALKER. Yes. Have I got the right name? DeMar is the man that was
on the program in one of Rubenstein's clubs.
Mr. LIEBELER. The name seems familiar to me. I don't know the man's name
actually myself.
General WALKER. As I recall, it was DeMar, the one that made the original
statement that he saw Oswald in the club one night. That was printed in the
press.
Mr. LIEBELER. Aside from the fellow DeMar having made the statement, do
you know of any other connection between Ruby and Oswald or any other common
acquaintances that they may have?
General WALKER. I believe we verified that Oswald had been for a short
period living in the same apartment house where Ruby's sister lived.
Mr. LIEBELER. What is Ruby's sister's name?
General WALKER. Eva Grant.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know what apartment house that is?
General WALKER. No; I don't recall.
Mr. LIEBELER. Who verified this?
General WALKER. I say I believe I verified it.
Mr. LIEBELER. You did yourself?
General WALKER. With assistance.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you are telling me that you conducted an investigation
of some sort into the possibility that Ruby's sister, Eva Grant, and Oswald
lived in the same apartment house? Now is that in the city of Dallas?
General WALKER. That is correct. And as I recall the address, I never did
pinpoint it, but as I recall, it wouldn't be too far from where I live. And of
course, I am still interested in my case with respect to Oswald, if there is any
significance.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now can you
tell me when they were supposed to have lived in this apartment house?
General WALKER. I don't recall the date.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was it 1963?
General WALKER. This is getting pretty old in my mind.
It definitely would have been in 1963; yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. 1963?
General WALKER. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was the apartment on Neely Street, if you remember?
General WALKER. As I recall--is Neely over in Oak Cliff or on this side?
Mr. LIEBELER. It is in Oak
Cliff.
General WALKER. No; it wasn't that far away.
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Mr. LIEBELER. It wasn't in Oak Cliff at all?
General WALKER. Well, I had the idea at the time that it was on this side
of town, out the side I am on.
Mr. LIEBELER. Well, from the time Oswald came back from the Soviet Union
and moved to Dallas and the time he was killed, he lived in an apartment on
Neely Street, and on Elsbeth Street and in a room on Marsalis Street, and 1026
North Beckley Street. Those are the only four places he ever lived. Was it on
any one of those four streets that this is supposed to have happened?
General WALKER. I can't recall definitely. Are they over in Oak Cliff?
Mr. LIEBELER. I believe each and every one of them, with the possible
exception of Marsalis, is.
General WALKER. I can get the information that I must have recorded
somewhere on the address we have.
Mr. LIEBELER. If you have any indication that Oswald lived in the same
apartment house that Ruby's sister lived, I will appreciate it very much if you
would supply it to the Commission.
General WALKER. Take a note on that, will you. I believe there is a paper
release on it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any other information that would indicate any
connection between Ruby and Oswald? By that question I do not mean to
characterize the previous testimony.
General WALKER. If Oswald was the one that was at my house, I wonder
where he was from the time he left until he got home, since the Las Vegas Club
is not too far from my house.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any indication that Oswald went to that club?
General WALKER. No; I don't.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any other information that would suggest a
connection between these two men?
General WALKER. I think the two boxes in the post office are very
interesting.
Mr. LIEBELER. Well, are you suggesting that because two men both happened
to have post office boxes in the same post office, that that suggests there is
some connection between them and indicates conspiracy to assassinate the
President?
General WALKER. The boxes were rented the same week.
Mr. LIEBELER Were what?
General WALKER. I believe the boxes were arranged the same week in the
post office.
Mr. LIEBELER. Rented?
General WALKER. Rented.
Mr. LIEBELER. You think that suggests a conspiracy between Oswald and
Ruby to assassinate the President?
General WALKER. I think that is more information.
Mr. LIEBELER. But I want to know.
General WALKER. That suggests a possible relationship. I think the fact
that Rubenstein shot Oswald suggests plenty. I am convinced he couldn't have
shot him except for one basic reason, and maybe many others, but to keep him
quiet. That is what shooting people does. I think the whole city of Dallas is
very interested. I would be interested in the information on a Professor Wolf,
William T. Wolf.
Mr. LIEBELER. Who is he?
General WALKER. William T.
Mr. LIEBELER. What information is that?
General WALKER. The first man we found in the paper that seemed to have
come to death after the attempted shot at me.
Mr. LIEBELER. I am not familiar with the circumstances surrounding that.
Would you tell me about Dr. Wolf?
General WALKER. William T. Wolf is a professor that was supposedly burned
up in an apartment, which seems impossible to have burned a man up, a normal man
with his normal faculties, because the apartment, he couldn't have been trapped
in it on the first floor.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know Dr. Wolf?
General WALKER. Never heard of him until I read about him in the paper,
and I believe I read about him 8 days after they shot at me.
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Mr. LIEBELER. You think there is some connection between Dr. Wolf's death
and the shot at you?
General WALKER. No; but I think there is some connection with respect to
what is going on in Dallas.
Mr. LIEBELER. Well, now, does this relate to the possibility of a
conspiracy between Oswald and Ruby to assassinate President Kennedy?
General WALKER. I think many unusual deaths in the city of Dallas might
show some indication of what is going on in Dallas, to include what happened on
the 22d of November. And I would refer to one other, a professor by the name of
Deen. His name is George C. Deen.
Mr. LIEBELER. What has that got to do with the assassination of President
Kennedy? What are the facts about it?
General WALKER. I would think it has to do with the investigation.
Mr. LIEBELER. Well, in what way?
General WALKER. It seems rather mysterious that a young doctor of
psychiatry at Timberlawn would, so far as I can tell, only show up in the
obituary page.
Mr. LIEBELER. What happened to this fellow?
General WALKER. Reported died of natural causes, I believe, or certainly
nothing more than the obituary, so far as I can find.
Mr. LIEBELER. Are you familiar with the organization known as The
Minutemen?
General WALKER. In general terms.
Mr. LIEBELER. Are you a member of that organization?
General WALKER. I am not.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know of any connection between The Minutemen and the
assassination of President Kennedy?
General WALKER. I do not.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know of any conspiracy or connection on the part of
any so-called rightwing organization and the assassination of President Kennedy?
General WALKER. I do not.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know of any connection between any of the people who
associate themselves with and who, shall we say, follow you as a political
leader, and the assassination of President Kennedy?
General WALKER. No. People that follow me are for constitutional
government. This is absolutely in violation of constitutional government. Very
destructive to what we stand for.
Mr. LIEBELER. So you say that there is no involvement of any kind or
nature whatever between any of the organizations or people that associate with
you or are involved with you in the assassination of President Kennedy?
General WALKER. I certainly know of none, and I certainly wouldn't be
suspicious of any. I would be suspicious from the center to the left.
Mr. LIEBELER. In any event, you don't have any knowledge of or
information that would suggest to you any such conspiracy or involvement of any
rightwing organization or person; is that correct?
General WALKER. That is correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, I asked General Watts to bring whatever records you
have that would indicate your whereabouts in October and after that in 1963.
Particularly, I want to know whether you were at a political rally or meeting
that was held immediately prior to the visit of Adlai Stevenson to the city of
Dallas in October of 1963.
General WALKER. Yes, I was the speaker on the day before Mr. Stevenson
appeared in the auditorium. I was the speaker in the same room and the same
platform on October 22.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was that event called U.S. Day?
General WALKER. U.S. Day rally.
Mr. LIEBELER. How many people would you say were there at that rally?
General WALKER. The room holds about 1,700 seats, and there were about
1,300 to 1,400.
Mr. LIEBELER. Were you aware of the fact that Lee Harvey Oswald claims to
have been at that meeting?
General WALKER. No, sir; I wasn't.
Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't know he was there at the time?
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General WALKER. I don't know yet.
Mr. LIEBELER. In any event, you didn't know then?
General WALKER. Certainly didn't.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall speaking--pardon me, not speaking, but going
to any meetings of anti-Castro Cuban groups during the month of October 1963?
General WALKER. During what month?
Mr. LIEBELER. October.
General WALKER. I don't remember a date of attendance.
Mr. LIEBELER. Isn't it a fact that there were some meetings here in
Dallas sponsored by an organization known as DRE, which is a revolutionary group
that is opposed to Fidel Castro? Do you remember that?
General WALKER. What does DRE
stand for?
Mr. LIEBELER. It is the initials of a lot of Spanish words which stands
for the Student Revolutionary Council. It is an anti-Castro organization.
General WALKER. What does DRE stand for? How would they have advertised
themselves?
Mr. LIEBELER. I think it is probably DRE.
General WALKER. Meaning what?
Mr. LIEBELER. It is Spanish words I am not familiar with.
General WALKER. Well, there is a student directorate group, which I
remember they call themselves, and that is the way they identified themselves. I
attended a meeting sometime and listened to some speakers.
Mr. LIEBELER. They came from Miami?
General WALKER. I believe they came from Miami.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you contributed $5 to the organization that night?
General WALKER. I believe I did.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see Lee Harvey Oswald at that meeting?
General WALKER. No; I did not.
Mr. LIEBELER. In point of fact, it would be correct to state that, to
your knowledge, you never saw or heard of Lee Harvey Oswald at any time prior to
the time that his name was announced after the assassination on November 22,
1963?
General WALKER. That is correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. You had no connection of any sort whatsoever with him prior
to that time?
General WALKER. None at all.
Mr. LIEBELER. Or since that time?
General WALKER. Or with anybody that I ever knew that was associated with
him, unless Duff turns out to be.
General WATTS. Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Helmet Hubert Muench?
General WALKER. That name is not familiar to me. Can you give me anything
to refresh me?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. He is a West German journalist who wrote an article
that appeared in the Deutsche Nationalzeitung und Soldatenzeitung, a Munich,
Germany, newspaper.
General WALKER. No; I don't know him.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever talk to him?
General WALKER. Not that I know of.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to him on a transatlantic telephone call in
which you told him about the fact or the alleged fact that Lee Harvey Oswald was
the person who made an attempt on your life?
General WALKER. I don't recall that name. Did he speak English?
I don't speak German.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever seen a copy of that newspaper?
General WALKER. Yes; I have.
Mr. LIEBELER. In fact, I suggest that you have seen the November 29,
1963, copy of that newspaper which had on its front page a story entitled in
German "The Strange Case of Oswald", that told about how Oswald had
allegedly attacked you.
General WALKER. November 29,
that is correct.
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Mr. LIEBELER. Now, where did that newspaper get that information, do you
know?
General WALKER. I do not. There was all article in the paper that he
probably got from me.
Mr. LIEBELER. Well, in fact, the issue of that newspaper has right on the
front page what purports to be a transcript of a telephone conversation between
you and some other person.
General WALKER. Thorsten?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. Hasso Thorsten, is that the man?
General WALKER. He called me in Shreveport.
Mr. LIEBELER. When were you in Shreveport?
General WALKER. He called me the morning of November 23, 1963, about 7
a.m.
Mr. LIEBELER. That is when you gave him this information about Oswald
having attacked you?
General WALKER. I didn't give him all the information--I think the
portion you are referring to, I didn't give him, because I had no way of knowing
that Oswald attacked me. I still don't. And I am not very prone to say in fact
he did. In fact, I have always claimed he did not, until we can get into the
case or somebody tells us differently that he did.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have a record here that indicates when you were in
Shreveport?
General WALKER. I don't know that I have a record here. I can tell you
definitely when I was in Shreveport.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you?
General WALKER. Well, starting back to make the record clear, I had a
speaking engagement in Hattiesburg, Miss., either the 18th or 19th of November.
I went from there to New Orleans and stayed 2 or 3 days. I was in the airplane
between New Orleans and Shreveport about halfway, when the pilot announced that
the President had been assassinated. I landed in Shreveport and went to the
Captain Shreve Hotel and stayed there two nights and returned to Dallas and was
walking into my house, just about the time of the immediate rerun of the
shooting of Oswald. I had been out of the city on speaking engagements.
Mr. LIEBELER. The question was, when were you in Shreveport, and when did
you talk to this man?
General WALKER. I was in Shreveport the night of the 23d and the night of
the 22d. Do you have a transcript of my conversation with Mr. Thorsten?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes, sir.
General WALKER. Sir?
Mr. LIEBELER. I have what appears to be that; yes.
General WALKER. Where did you get that?
Mr. LIEBELER. It is apparently taken from the newspaper. The newspaper
itself had a transcript printed right in it.
General WALKER. I believe the article you referred to in the newspaper
was separate from the other article in the paper which evolved out of the
conversation.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now so that there were in this particular issue of the
newspaper two transcripts of a conversation between yourself and Thorsten, and
also a story about how Oswald had allegedly fired at you, is that correct?
General WALKER. In the newspaper I remember two separate articles. One
based upon the conversation we had between us, as he understood it, and then as
a separate article which I consider that the newspaper had done on its own.
Mr. LIEBELER. What was the separate article about?
Did that have any reference to the fact that Oswald had allegedly fired
at you?
General WALKER. Yes. As I remember the article, it alleged that Oswald
was the one that had fired at me, and that this had been known earlier, and that
this had been known and that nothing was done about it.
And if something had been done about it at that time, he wouldn't have
been the man that--it wouldn't have been possible for him to have killed the
President.
Mr. LIEBELER. Well, now, did you tell anybody from this newspaper that
Oswald had shot at you and that this had been known prior to the time of the
assassination of the President?
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General WALKER. No; I did not. I wouldn't have known it. It was much
later that they began to tie Oswald into me, and I don't even know it yet.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you certainly didn't know it before November 22?
General WALKER. Or the morning of the 23d, certainly not. I was very
surprised to see the article.
Mr. LIEBELER. So the best of your recollection is that you never provided
them with the information?
General WALKER. I did not. I didn't know it at the time of this
conversation at all. I didn't know it until I started reading the newspaper,
which would have been later than then.
Mr. LIEBELER. I think that is right, so that you only had two
conversations with these people, is that correct?
General WALKER. In connection with this incident, as I remember, there
was a call back to verify something on the original conversation? I don't
remember how the conversation came about. There were two telephone
conversations; right.
Mr. LIEBELER. They both took place while you were down in Louisiana, the
23d and the 22d of November?
General WALKER. The first one was 7 o'clock in the morning the 23d, and
it woke me up.
Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't have the faintest idea that Oswald had taken a
shot at you and you didn't make a statement to that effect to the newspaper?
General WALKER. No; I didn't know.
Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't make a statement to the newspaper or anybody
connected with it at any other time, isn't that a fact?
General WALKER. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is it not a fact?
General WALKER. I might have said that the reports over here had
connected Oswald with me some subsequent time.
Mr. LIEBELER. I am somewhat puzzled by the whole thing, because the
newspaper in which this apparently appeared is dated November 29, and in fact,
that information was not known to anybody that I know of until a later date than
that----
General WALKER. Much later.
Mr. LIEBELER. Several days, at any rate.
General WALKER. People began to guess it immediately. I should say guess
at it.
Mr. LIEBELER. It might have been that the article was based on
speculation, and it might have been the newspaper was postdated too. I think
that sometimes happens.
General WALKER. I think that paper was definitely postdated.
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; that would explain it. That is what I mean, predated.
General WALKER. That is something else.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any other information that you think the
Commission ought to have that we haven't already talked about?
General WALKER. Yes. I think the Commission should look into George De
Mohrenschildt, if it hasn't.
Mr. LIEBELER. What do you know about Mr. De Mohrenschildt?
General WALKER. I know that my information indicates that he lived next
door to the professor that was supposed to have burned up.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any information that would connect De
Mohrenschildt to the assassination of President Kennedy in any way?
General WALKER. I have the information the paper had that connected him
with the Oswalds.
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes?
General WALKER. Of course, it is common knowledge that De Mohrenschildt
was associated with Oswald now.
Mr. LIEBELER. Other than that, do you have any information to indicate
that De Mohrenschildt was involved in any way with the assassination of
President Kennedy?
General WALKER. Not directly.
General WATTS. Do you have any indirect evidence?
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General WALKER. I am tired of them blaming the rightwing, and I have had
enough of this, and it is about time that the Commission cleared the city of
Dallas.
Mr. LIEBELER. Well, now, do you have any indirect indication or evidence
that would associate De Mohrenschildt with the assassination of President
Kennedy in any way?
General WALKER. I think it is very important that De Mohrenschildt knew
Oswald. I think it is very interesting. My information is that De Mohrenschildt
went to Haiti. I have nothing further to add.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, is there anything else that you think the Commission
ought to know that we have not already mentioned here this evening? It is now
7:15.
General WALKER. Where am I at?
Mr. LIEBELER. I didn't mean to suggest--I just wanted to let the record
show we are both working very hard.
General WALKER. I will stay here all night.
Mr. LIEBELER. If you have anything else that you think the Commission
should know or that you consider to be of material importance, I want you to say
so, General Walker, because I think that you have--I hope you realize that the
Commission is trying to do the best job that it can with the situation, and that
if you can be of help to us, or if anybody else could be of help to us, we want
your help.
General WALKER. That is my approach to the problem. We certainly want the
truth. We want the truth to come out.
General WATTS. Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
General WALKER. I believe it has been released to the press that, and I
am not sure that it has, but some information has gotten to me, I can't recall
how, but the bullet that was fired at me matched the gun of the type that Oswald
used on the 22d. That sounds rather vague, but I believe that is the way the
information has come.
General WATTS. This is off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. LIEBELER. General Watts has indicated that he had some ammunition the
investigators got from Mr. Duff and I request you to forward that ammunition, to
deliver it to the FBI in Oklahoma City and ask them to forward it to the FBI
laboratory, and I will contact the FBI in Washington when I get back.
General WALKER. Don't you want to clarify that where they found that in
the apartment, wasn't it?
General WATTS. Yes. I will get the investigator and get the detailed
source of the ammunition and turn the ammunition over to the FBI in
General WALKER. I can think of nothing else that I am not sure hasn't
already come to the Commission one way or another.
Mr. LIEBELER. Very well. I have no more questions. I want to thank you
very much for coming down and appearing before us and giving us the testimony
you have. We appreciate it.
General WALKER. Thank you very much. If I can do anything further for
you, we will be happy to.
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