BREWER,
JOHNNY Volume VII
TESTIMONY
OF JOHNNY CALVIN BREWER
The testimony of Johnny Calvin Brewer was taken at 3:15 p.m., on April 2,
1964, in the office of the
Mr. BELIN. Will you stand and raise your right hand.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. BREWER. I do.
Mr. BELIN Would you please state your name for the record?
Mr. BREWER. Johnny Calvin Brewer.
Mr. BELIN. How old are you, Mr. Brewer?
Mr. BREWER. Twenty-two.
Mr. BELIN. Where do you live?
Mr. BREWER. 512 North
Mr. BELIN. What city and state?
Mr. BREWER.
Mr. BELIN. Were you born in
Mr. BREWER. Born in
Mr. BELIN. In
Mr. BREWER. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. When did you move to
Mr. BREWER. About 2 years after I was born. My father was foreman on a
construction company and we moved to
Mr. BELIN. Where did you go to school in
Mr. BREWER. I went first year in Lockhart. The second year we moved to
Mr. BELIN. You graduated from high school?
Mr. BREWER. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Did you go to school after you graduated from high school?
Mr. BREWER. I went to
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?
Mr. BREWER. I got married and quit school and went to work for Hardy's
Shoe Store. I----that was in September, and I got married in December.
And I have been with them ever since.
Mr. BELIN. When did you go to work for Hardy's Shoe Store?
Mr. BREWER. In September of
1961.
Mr. BELIN. Do they assign you
to any particular store?
Mr. BREWER. I worked at the
Mr. BELIN. In
Mr. BREWER. I was assistant
manager.
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Mr. BELIN. And they transferred you to a shop on
Mr. BREWER. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. In
Mr. BREWER. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. What is the address of that shop in
Mr. BREWER. 213 West
Mr. BELIN. They made you the manager of that shop?
Mr. BREWER. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. How long have you been manager?
Mr. BREWER. Since August of 1962.
Mr. BELIN. From August 1962 on?
Mr. BREWER. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Until the present time?
Mr. BREWER. Until the day I was made manager of the downtown store.
Mr. BELIN. Today is the 2d of April, or the 3d?
Mr. BREWER. Second.
Mr. BELIN. You were made manager of the Hardy's Downtown Shoe Store?
Mr. BREWER. Yes, sir.
It wasn't April Fool's. I thought they were firing me, but it turned out
they weren't.
Mr. BELIN. Did he call you in yesterday to tell you?
Mr. BREWER. Day before yesterday and told me to get ready for an audit,
that I would be going to town, if I wanted it, and I said yes.
Mr. BELIN. Would this be considered a promotion?
Mr. BREWER. A better store, more volume, and make more money.
It would be considered a promotion.
Mr. BELIN. Any children at all, Mr. Brewer?
Mr. BREWER. No.
Mr. BELIN. I want to take you back to November
22, 1963. This was the day that President Kennedy was assassinated. How did you
find out about the assassination, Mr. Brewer?
Mr. BREWER. We were listening to a transistor radio there in the store,
just listening to a regular radio program, and they broke in with the bulletin
that the President had been shot. And from then, that is all there was. We
listened to all of the events.
Mr. BELIN. Did you hear over the radio that the President had died?
Mr. BREWER. I heard a rumor. They said that----one of the Secret Service
men said that the President had died, and said that was just a rumor.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember hearing anything else over the radio
concerning anything that happened that afternoon?
Mr. BREWER. Well, they kept reconstructing what had happened and what
they had heard, and they talked about it in general. There wasn't too much to
talk about. They didn't have all the facts, and just repeated them mostly.
And they said a patrolman had been shot in Oak Cliff.
Mr. BELIN. Is Oak Cliff the
area in which your shoe store was located?
Mr. BREWER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. All right, would you describe what happened after you heard on
the radio that an officer had been shot?
Mr. BREWER. Well, there was heard a siren coming down East Jefferson
headed toward
Mr. BELIN. What is the dividing street between East and
Mr. BREWER.
Mr. BELIN. How far is
Mr. BREWER. Two blocks.
Mr. BELIN. Two blocks to the east or to the west?
Mr. BREWER. There is Zangs to the east. The first street is Zangs and the
next street is
Mr. BELIN. The
Mr. BREWER. Yes, right.
Mr. BELIN. Is your store
located to the north or south side of
Mr. BREWER. On the north.
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Mr. BELIN. All right.
Mr. BREWER. I looked up and out towards the street and the police
cars----
Mr. BELIN. When you looked
up, did you step out of the store at all?
Mr. BREWER. No; I
was Still in the store behind the counter, and I looked up and saw the
man enter the lobby.
Mr. BELIN. When you say the lobby of your store, first let me ask you to
describe how is----how wide is your store, approximately?
Mr. BREWER. About 20 feet.
Mr. BELIN. All right, is the entrance to your store right on the
sidewalk?
Mr. BREWER. The entrance to the store is about 15 feet from the sidewalk,
front doors.
Mr. BELIN. The front doors?
Mr. BREWER. Yes; they are recessed, and then there is windows, show
windows on each side.
Mr. BELIN. This would be, if we were if we would take a look at the
letter "U," or see the letter "V," your doorway would be at
the bottom part of the letter and the show cases would be at the sides of the
letter, is that correct?
Mr. BREWER. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. What you call this lobby, that is the area between the
sidewalk and your front door, is that correct?
Mr. BREWER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. All right, you saw a man going into what you referred to as
this lobby area?
Mr. BREWER. Yes; and he stood there with his back to the street.
Mr. BELIN. When did he go in now? What did you hear at the time that he
stepped into this lobby area?
Mr. BREWER. I heard the police cars coming up Jefferson, and he stepped
in, and the police made a U-turn and went back down East
Mr. BELIN. Where did he make the U-turn?
Mr. BREWER. At Zangs.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember the sirens going away?
Mr. BREWER. Yes; the sirens were going away.
I presume back to where the officer had been shot, because it was back
down that way. And when they turned
and left, Oswald looked over his shoulder and turned around and walked up
Mr. BELIN. Let me hold you a minute. You used the word Oswald. Did you
know who the man was at the time you saw him?
Mr. BREWER. No.
Mr. BELIN. So at the time, you didn't know what his name was?
Mr. BREWER. No.
Mr. BELIN. Will you describe the man you saw?
Mr. BREWER. He was a little man, about 5'9", and weighed about 150
pounds is all.
Mr. BELIN. How tall are you, by the way?
Mr. BREWER. Six three.
Mr. BELIN. So you say he was about 5'9"?
Mr. BREWER. About 5'9".
Mr. BELIN. And about 150?
Mr. BREWER. And had brown hair. He
had a brown sports shirt on. His
shirt tail was out.
Mr. BELIN. Any jacket?
Mr. BREWER. No.
Mr. BELIN. What color of trousers, do you remember?
Mr. BREWER. I don't remember.
Mr. BELIN. Light or dark?
Mr. BREWER. I don't remember that either.
Mr. BELIN. Any other clothing that you noticed?
Mr. BREWER. He had a T-shirt underneath his shirt.
Mr. BELIN. Was his shirt buttoned up all the way?
Mr. BREWER. A couple of buttons were unbuttoned at the time.
Mr. BELIN. Light complexioned or dark?
Mr. BREWER. Light complexioned.
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Mr. BELIN. All right. After
you saw him in the lobby of your store there, what you call a lobby area, which
is really kind of an extension of the sidewalk, then you saw him leave?
Mr. BREWER. Yes, he turned and walked up toward----
Mr. BELIN. Had the police
sirens subsided at the time he turned, or not?
Mr. BREWER. No; you could still hear sirens.
Mr. BELIN. Did they sound like they were coming toward you or going away?
Mr. BREWER. They were going away at that time.
Mr. BELIN. Going the other way?
Mr. BREWER. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. How could you tell?
Mr. BREWER. They were getting further in the distance.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you see this man do?
Mr. BREWER. He turned and
walked out of the lobby and went up
Mr. BELIN. What theatre is that?
Mr. BREWER. Texas Theatre.
Mr. BELIN. Why did you happen to watch this particular man?
Mr. BREWER. He just looked
funny to me. Well, in the first
place, I had seen him some place before. I think he had been in my store before.
And when you wait on somebody, you recognize them, and he just seemed
funny. His hair was sort of messed
up and looked like he had been running, and he looked seared, and he looked
funny.
Mr. BELIN. Did you notice any of his actions when he was standing in your
lobby there?
Mr. BREWER. No; he just stood there and stared.
Mr. BELIN. He stared?
Mr. BREWER. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Was he looking at the merchandise?
Mr. BREWER. Not anything in particular. He was just standing there
staring.
Mr. BELIN. Well, would you state then what happened? You said that you
saw him walk into the Texas Theatre?
Mr. BREWSTER. He walked into the Texas Theatre and I walked up to the
theatre, to the box office and asked Mrs. Postal if she sold a ticket to a man
who was wearing a brown shirt, and she said no, she hadn't. She was listening to
the radio herself. And I said that a man walked in there, and I was going to go
inside and ask the usher if he had seen him.
So I walked in and Butch Burroughs.----
Mr. BELIN. Who was Burroughs?
Mr. BREWER. He was behind the counter. He operated the concession and
takes tickets. He was behind the concession stand and I asked him if he had seen
a man in a brown shirt of that description, matching that description, and he
said he had been working behind the counter and hadn't seen anybody.
And I asked him if he would come with me and show me where the exits were
and we would check the exits. And he asked me why.
I told him that I thought the guy looked suspicious.
Mr. BELIN. Could you tell whether or not he bought a ticket?
Mr. BREWER. No; he just turned and walked right straight in.
Mr. BELIN. When he walked fight straight in, could you see the box
office?
Mr. BREWER. Well, the box office is right in the middle in front of the
theatre, and he turned right at the corner and went in. You could see him if he
was buying a ticket, because the box office is flush with all the other
buildings.
Mr. BELIN. If he had purchased a ticket, would you have seen him
purchasing the ticket from where you were standing or walking?
Mr. BREWER. I could have seen him, yes; standing in front of the box
office.
Mr. BELIN. Then did you know when you saw him walk in and when you walked
up to Julia Postal that he had not bought a ticket?
Mr. BREWER. I knew that he hadn't.
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Mr. BELIN. Why did you ask Julia Postal whether he had or hadn't?
Mr. BREWER. I don't know.
Mr. BELIN. You just asked her?
Mr. BREWER. Just asked her whether he had bought or she had seen him go
in.
Mr. BELIN. She---did she say whether she had seen him, or don't you
remember?
Mr. BREWER. She said she
couldn't remember a man of that description going in.
Mr. BELIN. All right. You saw this person Butch?
Mr. BREWER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. You say he is the usher, too?
Mr. BREWER. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. What did you and Butch do?
Mr. BREWER. We walked down to the front of the theatre to the stage.
First we checked the front exit, and it hadn't been opened. We went to
the back and it hadn't been opened.
Mr. BELIN. How could you tell that it hadn't been opened?
Mr. BREWER. Well, you open it from the inside, and you raise a bar, and a
rod sticks into a hole at the bottom and then you open it. When you close it, it
doesn't fall back in. You have to raise the rod again to close it from the
inside.
Mr. BELIN. In other words, you have to close it from the inside?
Mr. BREWER. You can close it from the outside, but it won't lock.
Mr. BELIN. It was locked when you got there?
Mr. BREWER. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. So you knew that no one had left?
Mr. BREWER. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?
Mr. BREWER. We went back up front and went in the balcony and looked
around but we couldn't see anything.
Mr. BELIN. Now you first looked on the bottom floor and you did not see
him?
Mr. BREWER. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. How many patrons were in the theatre
at that time?
Mr. BREWER. I couldn't really tell. There weren't many, but it was dark
and we couldn't see how many people were in there. There were 15 or 20, I would
say, at the most, upstairs and downstairs.
Mr. BELIN. Together, 15 or 20?
Mr. BREWER. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Then you went upstairs. Did
you see him upstairs?
Mr. BREWER. No; I couldn't see anything upstairs.
Mr. BELIN. Did you hear any noises there?
Mr. BREWER. When we first went down to the exit by the stage, we heard a
seat pop up, but couldn't see anybody. And
we never did see him. But we went
back and upstairs and checked, and we came down and went back to the box office
and told Julia that we hadn't seen him.
Mr. BELIN. Julia Postal is the cashier?
Mr. BREWER. Yes; and she called the police, and we went----Butch went to
the front exit, and I went down by the stage to the back exit and stood there
until the police came.
Mr. BELIN. Then what happened?
Mr. BREWER. Well, just before they came. they turned the house lights on,
and I looked out from the curtains and saw the man.
Mr. BELIN. Where was he when you saw him?
Mr. BREWER. He was in the center section about six or seven rows, from
the back, toward the back.
Mr. BELIN. Toward the back? Are you sure?
Mr. Brewer, do you know exactly which row he was in from the back?
Mr. BREWER. No; I don't know which row.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you see?
Mr. BREWER. He stood up and
walked to the aisle to his right and then he turned around and walked back and
sat down and at this time there was no place I could see.
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Mr. BELIN. Did he sit down in
the same seat he had been in to begin with?
Mr. BREWER. I don't remember
if it was the same seat or not.
Mr. BELIN. Then what happened?
Mr. BREWER. I heard a noise outside, and I opened the door, and the
alley, I guess it was filled with police cars and policemen were on the fire
exits and stacked around the alley, and they grabbed me, a couple of them and
held and searched me and asked me what I was doing there, and I told them that
there was a guy in the theatre that I was suspicious of, and he asked me if he
was still there.
And I said, yes, I just seen him. And he asked me if I would point him
out.
And I and two or three other officers walked out on the stage and I
pointed him out, and there were officers coming in from the front of the show, I
guess, coming toward that way, and officers going from the back.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you see?
Mr. BREWER. Well, I saw this policeman approach Oswald, and Oswald stood
up and I heard some hollering. I don't know exactly what he said, and this man
hit Patrolman McDonald.
Mr. BELIN. You say this man hit Patrolman McDonald. Did you know it was
Patrolman McDonald?
Mr. BREWER. I didn't know his name, but I had seen him quite a few times
around Oak Cliff. But I didn't know
his name.
Mr. BELIN. Then you later found out this was Patrolman McDonald?
Mr. BREWER. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Did you say this man was the same man?
Mr. BREWER. The same man that had stood in my lobby that I followed to
the show.
Mr. BELIN. Who hit who first?
Mr. BREWER. Oswald hit McDonald first, and he knocked him to the seat.
Mr. BELIN. Who knocked who?
Mr. BREWER. He knocked McDonald down.
McDonald fell against one of the seats. And then real quick he was back
up.
Mr. BELIN. When you say he was----
Mr. BREWER. McDonald was back up. He just knocked him down for a second
and he was back up. And I jumped off the stage and was walking toward that, and
I saw this gun come up and----in Oswald's hand, a gun up in the air.
Mr. BELIN. Did you see from where the gun came?
Mr. BREWER. No.
Mr. BELIN. You saw the gun up in the air?
Mr. BREWER. And somebody hollered "He's got
a gun."
And there were a couple of officers fighting him and taking the gun away
from him, and they took the gun from him, and he was fighting, still fighting,
and I heard some of the police holier, I don't know who it was, "Kill the
President, will you." And I saw fists flying and they were hitting him.
Mr. BELIN. Was he fighting back at that time?
Mr. BREWER. Yes; he was fighting back.
Mr. BELIN. Then what happened?
Mr. BREWER. Well, just in a short time they put the handcuffs on him and
they took him out.
Mr. BELIN. Did you see police officers hit him after they got the
handcuffs on him?
Mr. BREWER. No; I didn't see them.
Mr. BELIN. Did you see any police officer hit Oswald after Oswald stopped
fighting?
Mr. BREWER. No.
Mr. BELIN. Did you hear Oswald say anything?
Mr. BREWER. As they were taking him out, he stopped and turned around and
hollered, "I am not resisting arrest," about twice.
"I am not resisting arrest." And they took him on outside.
Mr. BELIN. Then what happened?
Mr. BREWER. Well, then, the police officers and plainclothesmen, whoever
they were, got everybody that was in the theatre and set them aside, and
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another
officer was taking their names and addresses of all the people that were in the
theatre.
Mr. BELIN. When you first saw this man. when you saw him leave what you
referred to as the lobby of your shoestore building, what is it, marble or
concrete?
Mr. BREWER. Terrazzo.
Mr. BELIN. Terrazzo between the sidewalk and your front door?
Mr. BREWER. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Where were you when you first saw him?
Mr. BREWER. I was behind the counter there by the hose bar.
Mr. BELIN. About how far were
you from the front door?
Mr. BREWER. Ten feet.
Mr. BELIN. Could you see through there to get a good view?
Mr. BREWER. Yes; the doors are solid glass.
Mr. BELIN. Then you saw this man leave?
Mr. BREWER. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?
Mr. BREWER. I went out the front door and stood in front of the store and
watched him.
Mr. BELIN. You stood in front of the door?
Mr. BREWER. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Where was he walking when you first saw him? As you got out in
front of your store?
Mr. BREWER. He was, I would say, he was in front of the furniture store.
What is the name of that?
Mr. BELIN. Would that be Thompson's Furniture Store?
Mr. BREWER. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Did you know----notice how fast this man was walking?
Mr. BREWER. Just a little faster than usual.
Mr. BELIN. Faster than usual walk?
Mr. BREWER. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Then about how far were you behind him?
Mr. BREWER. Well, I stood there until he walked into the theatre. I don't
really know what I was thinking about.
Mr. BELIN. You stood in front of your store as he walked into the
theatre?
Mr. BREWER. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. About how far is the entrance of the theatre from your store?
Mr. BREWER. I would say 50 or 60 feet----yards.
Mr. BELIN. Then after you saw him turn into the theatre, what did you do?
Mr. BREWER. Than I walked toward the theatre.
Mr. BELIN. At an average pace, or above average?
Mr. BREWER. I don't know.
Mr. BELIN. You don't remember? About how long after you got to the
theatre did the police come in, if you can remember?
Mr. BREWER. I don't remember that either.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember about what time it was when the police came
in?
Mr. BREWER. No.
Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else you can think of that in any way bears
on this?
Mr. BREWER. No.
Mr. BELIN. Mr. Brewer, I am handing you what has been marked
"Commission Exhibit 150," and ask you to state whether or not that
looks like the shirt you saw the man wear?
Mr. BREWER. That looks like the shirt, yes.
Mr. BELIN. Did you 'notice whether the man that wore it had any holes in
the elbows at all, or not?
Mr. BREWER. I didn't notice.
Mr. BELIN. But this Exhibit 150, looks like the shirt?
Mr. BREWER. It looks like the shirt.
Mr. BELIN. Was he wearing a jacket? I believe you answered that before.
Mr. BREWER. No, he didn't have on a jacket.
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Mr. BELIN. Did you hear this man as he was in the theatre say anything
other than "I am not resisting arrest."?
Mr. BREWER. No.
Mr. BELIN. Did he say anything, or could you not understand it?
Mr. BREWER. He said something, but I couldn't understand what it was.
Mr. BELIN. When he said, "I am not resisting arrest," was this
before or after they had the handcuffs on him?
Mr. BREWER. After.
Mr. BELIN. Mr. Brewer, you have the right, if you want, to come back and
read this' deposition and sign it, or you can just waive the signing of it and
let the court reporter send it directly to us in
Mr. BREWER. No.
Mr. BELIN. Do you want to waive it?
Mr. BREWER. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. We want to thank you for all of your cooperation on this. I
might ask one other question. We chatted for a few minutes when we first met
before we started taking this deposition, did we not?
Mr. BREWER. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Is there anything we talked there about that isn't recorded in
this written testimony?
Mr. BREWER. No.
Mr. BELIN. Is there anything you said which is different insofar as
stating the facts and what you have stated here on the record?
Mr. BREWER. No.
Mr. BELIN. When we first met, what is the fact as to whether or not I
just asked you to tell your story, or whether or not I tried to tell you what I
thought the story was?
Mr. BREWER. You asked me to tell the story first.
Mr. BELIN. Is that what you did?
Mr. BREWER. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Anything else you can think of?
Mr. BREWER. No.
Mr. BELIN. Please thank Hardy's Shoe Store for us for letting you take
the time to be here. We thank you very much.
Mr. BREWER. Okay.
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