DENNIS
HYMAN OFSTEIN Volume X
The testimony of Dennis Hyman Ofstein was taken at 2 p.m., on March 30,
1964, in the office of the
Mr. JENNER. I am Albert E. Jenner, Jr., counsel for the Commission, and
this is Miss Oliver. Would you rise and be sworn?
"Do you promise on this deposition which I am about to take of you
to tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Miss Oliver, this is Dennis Hyman Ofstein [spelling] D-e-n-n-i-s
H-y-m-a-n O-f-s-t-e-i-n. Is that correct?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And Mr. Ofstein, you received, did you, a letter from Mr.
Rankin?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes. sir.
Mr. JENNER. General counsel for the Commission, with which were enclosed
three documents, a copy of Executive Order 11130 creating the Commission to
investigate the assassination of President Kennedy.
Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER That is an order of the President of the United States, Lyndon
B. Johnson.
There is a copy of Senate Joint Resolution 137, authorizing the creation
of the Commission and a copy of the rules of procedure of the Commission which
we adopt.
Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And you appear voluntarily?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. The Commission, as you have leaned, from those documents, is
investigating all of the facts and circumstances surrounding the assassination
of President Kennedy, and to give particular attention to Lee Harvey Oswald and
anybody who had any contact with him during his lifetime. It is our information
that you had some contact with him, or with people who had contact with him. The
Commission is interested in that contact, and I would like to ask you questions
about it, if I may.
Mr. OFSTEIN. Very well, sir.
Mr. JENNER. First, tell me a little bit about yourself. Are you a former
serviceman?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER And what branch of service did you serve?
Mr. OFSTEIN. I was in the Army, sir.
Mr. JENNER And when did you go in and when were you discharged?
Mr. OFSTEIN. I went in in August, I believe, in 1957, and I was
discharged November 1960.
Mr. JENNER That was an honorable discharge, I assume?
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Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And do you reside in
Mr. OFSTEIN. I reside in
Mr. JENNER. Are you a native of
Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. What is your home town?
Mr. OFSTEIN. I reside in
Mr. JENNER. And are you a married man?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. How long have you lived in
Mr. OFSTEIN. Approximately 3 years.
Mr. JENNER. That would take us back into 1961--in any event?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And what has been, the nature of of your business,
occupation, employment, profession or vocation?
Mr. OFSTEIN. For the past 2 years I have been with Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall
as a cameraman.
Mr. JENNER As a cameraman?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. What was your work immediately prior to that, by whom, were
you employed?
Mr. OFSTEIN. I was working for Sinclair Refining Co. at a local service
station.
Mr. JENNER. Here in
Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did you become acquainted with Lee Harvey Oswald at any time
during his lifetime?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Here in
Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Start at the very beginning, and in your own words tell the
circumstances under which that acquaintance arose.
Mr. OFSTEIN. Well; it was when he became employed by Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall
as a cameraman trainee and he was in the same department I was and due to the
fact that I had worked there and knew a little bit about the job, I was--as well
as everyone else down there expected to help him and more or less not supervise,
but kind of keep my eye on him and help him along.
Mr. JENNER. What is your age, by the way?
Mr. OFSTEIN. I am 24.
Mr. JENNER. You were born in 1940?
Mr. OFSTEIN. 1939, sir.
Mr. JENNER. 1939, and Mr. Oswald's birth date was October 18, 1939,
you--so you were the same age?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. You were already employed by Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall when Lee
Oswald came there, were you?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes sir.
Mr. JENNER. Give me your best recollection as to when that was?
Mr. OFSTEIN. It seems like it was October or November 1962.
Mr. JENNER. I have his employment card here October 12, 1962---does that
sort of square with your recollection?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir; roughly.
Mr. JENNER. Had you had any prior experience as a cameraman when
you became employed by Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall?
Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. You are still employed by them?
Mr. OFSTEIN Yes sir.
Mr. JENNER. You were initially a trainee as well as Oswald?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes sir.
Mr. JENNER. And how did you become employed there?
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Mr. OFSTEIN. I was laid off by Sinclair Refining Co. and I registered
with the
Mr. JENNER. Did anybody in particular handle that over there at the
Commission?
Mr. OFSTEIN. I don't recall who the person was at the time.
Mr. JENNER. A lady or a gentleman?
Mr. OFSTEIN. I'm fairly certain it was a young lady and they sent me to
Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall.
Mr. JENNER. Does the name Latham--Louise Latham trigger any recollection?
Mr. OFSTEIN. The name is familiar--whether she was there or not--I don't
know.
Mr. JENNER. Is that name familiar in connection with the
Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. All right. I
interrupted you--go ahead.
Mr. OFSTEIN. I was sent there----
Mr. JENNER. And with whom did you talk when you came there?
Mr. OFSTEIN. I was there early for the appointment and I talked to
Leonard Calverly, who was the daytime foreman in the camera department, and he
showed me around the place, and he talked to me and told me the final decision
would be up to Mr. Graef.
Mr. JENNER. That's G-r-a-e-f [spelling]?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. He is head of what?
Mr. OFSTEIN. He is a supervisor in charge of the camera department, and I
talked with him at approximately 9 o'clock and he seemed satisfied--he would
give me a try as a trainee, and wanted to know when I could come to work, and I
told him that morning and I went to work immediately.
Mr. JENNER. Had you had any experience in the use of cameras?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Not in the same type of cameras--no, sir.
Mr. JENNER. What experience had you had in camera work?
Mr. OFSTEIN. It had been strictly pleasure photography with smaller
cameras.
Mr. JENNER. Had you done any developing work?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. You had had some darkroom experience?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Very much?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Not a whole lot--no, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did either of these gentlemen inquire of you as to your
experience in that direction?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Both of them?
Mr. OFSTEIN. I don't recall--I know that Mr. Graef did.
Mr. JENNER. What kind of photography work does Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall do?
Mr. OFSTEIN. It's strictly commercial--advertising type of photography.
We make posters and poster effects and different types of effects for different
advertising media--newspaper, magazines, and so forth--billboards.
Mr. JENNER. What kind of cameras are employed?
Mr. OFSTEIN. I'm not sure of the brand names we have.
Mr. JENNER. I'm thinking more of the size, weight, whether they are
portable or aren't portable, or whether they are fixed or aren't fixed.
Mr. OFSTEIN. They are fixed,
they move on a track to determine the size of the copy that is photographed, and
they have fixed mounted lenses in the walls.
Mr. JENNER. And you move from one lens to another, is that the way?
Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir; you mount the copy to be photographed on the board
and you move that board, and the board that you put your film on--to get it
different sizes.
Mr. JENNER. What is the character of the
training?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Mainly they start you out with doing small jobs--just
normal--what we call straight shots. It
amounts to getting a size and photographing it and developing it,
opaquing the negatives, and making nice clean prints, and then as you progress
you do more difficult type work.
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Mr. JENNER. Do you
know what lithography is, lithographing?
Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir; I have heard the term--that's all.
Mr. JENNER. Making metal plates?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Or reproductions?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Is there any lithographic work done by that company?
Mr. OFSTEIN. I'm not certain--I don't believe so.
Mr. JENNER. Do they do any printing themselves?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. What is the nature of that kind of work?
Mr. OFSTEIN. They have the photosetter machine which does the printing on
film usually for a transfer to some other surface. They have hot metal, they
have linotype and monotype, and, of course, they have reprint presses.
Mr. JENNER. And you were trained to do what?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Strictly camera work.
Mr. JENNER. Did your work extend beyond the
taking of the photographic imprint on a film?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir; we. were taught also to set filmotype, which is a
process of writing out on a sheet of paper from a film negative that's already
been put into a roll and making words and sentences and so on and photographing
that, also, distortion of negatives and different types of copy.
Mr. JENNER What do you do to the distortion work?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Well, they have different processes--they have what they
call perspective, which entails turning the copy board and the film mounting
board at different angles from each other to make one end look smaller going off
at a distance, and they have what is known as stretches and squats, which
entails putting mirrors before the copy board to make a character or letter
taller or smaller and doing circles.
Mr. JENNER. They would have a magnifying or
contracting mirror?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir; and circles which is done with a circle device
using a film positive to curve a straight line around and, of course, they have
their different reproduction effects, such as the screens and the halftones.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know whether this company
has done any confidential or secret work for any agency of the
Mr. OFSTEIN. I don't know the nature of the classification.
I do know that they do work for the
Mr. JENNER. Have you ever participated in any of that work?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Only during strike--approximately 2 weeks.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know whether Lee Oswald did?
Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir--I'm sure he didn't.
Mr. JENNER. Is that work confined to those in the plant who are
particularly skilled or trained to do that particular kind of work?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Had Lee Oswald at the time his employment there was
terminated reached that degree of skill?
Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir; that is handled by a different department
altogether.
Mr. JENNER. And how long had you been employed there when Lee Harvey came
with the company?
Mr. OFSTEIN. I was hired in March, 2 years ago, 1962--I would say
approximately 9 months.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall when he came about approximately when?
Mr. OFSTEIN. October 1962.
Mr. JENNER. You became acquainted with him when he became employed?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have any social contact with him during all the
period of his employment?
Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER Were you in contact with him because of the employment you had
and the work you were doing and the work he was doing?
Mr OFSTEIN, Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever become sufficiently acquainted with him that you
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either
sought to visit him or invite him to visit you, or did an occasion arise
ultimately in which you thought your acquaintance was sufficient or your
interest in him or his wife or both of them was sufficient that you sought to
have some social contact?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. When was that?
Mr. OFSTEIN. On the day that his employment terminated I told him that I
hoped he found another job and we would have to get together sometime,
being he was married and I was, and I believe it was approximately a week
later when I wrote a letter to him inviting him and his wife to come and visit
us some Saturday evening and have social activities.
Mr. JENNER. Was there any response to that letter?
Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir; none whatsoever.
Mr. JENNER. From, the day his employment terminated to the present, have
you seen him in person?
Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. From that day until the present, had you had any contact at
all with him?
Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir; only my attempt at inviting him and his wife to the
house.
Mr. JENNER. Other than that circumstance?
Mr. JENNER. How did you know where to write him?
Mr. OFSTEIN. He gave me his address--post office box.
Mr. JENNER. You made a note of it, I take it?
Mr. JENNER. And you still have it?
Mr. OFSTEIN. I believe so--yes, sir; Post Office
Mr. JENNER. Did he give you a telephone number?
Mr. JENNER. What, if anything do you know about Oswald's ability to
operate a motor vehicle?
Mr. OFSTEIN. None whatsoever.
Mr. JENNER. Did your acquaintance reach the point at which he talked with
you some of his past history?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Let's start back to the time he became employed in October
1962, and you start in your own words and tell us your acquaintance with him,
how that acquaintance ripened, if it did ripen, the nature of your work with him
at the Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall plant.
Mr. OFSTEIN. Well, after he became employed, we worked more or less side
by side while he was training and everything, and the contact I had with him--it
was necessary to teach him how to operate the cameras and how to opaque
negatives and make clean prints and just the general work around there.
Mr. JENNER. Now, Sticking right at that point what was his skill and
acquaintance in that connection when he first started?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Well, he seemed to take a great interest in it as far as
skill went--it was, I would say at the beginning approximately the same as
anyone else's would have been.
Mr. JENNER. Little or none?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Little or none; yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. All right,
proceed.
Mr. OFSTEIN. He did improve somewhat, as far as I could see, but never
turned out extreme quality work such as is required to leave the
plant, and, of course, that is what caused the termination of his
employment. It must have been about January of 1963, that--of course--at the
time, he was having trouble getting along with people.
He wasn't the outgoing type who tried to make friends.
You had to more or less stick with him and be with him constantly to even
talk to him freely. He would shove his way in places, he wouldn't wait his turn
at certain machines, and the reason I got along with him as well as I did,
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possibly,
is because I am outgoing and I try to get along with everybody, and I believe
that their own disposition is theirs. If I don't like it, I don't exactly have
to put up with it, but I feel that there are people who don't like me for things
I do, so I overlooked most of his bad traits and things that most of the other
fellows got upset about and mad about. And, we talked occasionally and he wanted
to know at one point if it was possible to make an enlargement of a normal
negative there such as is taken, in a small camera and I told him,
"Yes," and showed him how to do it, and he had one picture that he
wanted to enlarge. It showed a river of some sort, with a fairly nice looking
building in the background, and I asked him if that was in
Mr. JENNER..He told you he had?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir; and he said, "No, it wasn't in
Mr. JENNER. How much later did you find that out?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Possibly the latter part of February, or the middle part of
February 1963.
Mr. JENNER. How did you find that out?
Mr. OFSTEIN. He came down
with some Russian literature one day.
Mr. JENNER. Russian literature--what was the form of this literature?
Mr. OFSTEIN. It was a newspaper, I believe, at the time.
Mr. JENNER. English or Russian?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Russian.
Mr. JENNER. Printed in Russian hieroglyphics?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir; yes.
Mr. JENNER. In other words, it was a Russian language publication?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir; published in the
Mr. JENNER. Did he show it to you?
Mr. OFSTEIN. He didn't exactly show it to me, but it was in plain view.
Mr. JENNER. Did you look at it?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Do you remember anything about it that would tend to identify
it?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Not extremely clearly--it was possibly a copy of the Soviet
White Russian, I believe is what the title of it is, but I noticed that
there--we had a conversation about the paper.
Mr. JENNER. Was anybody present in addition to yourself and Oswald?
Mr. OFSTEIN. I don't believe so; no, sir.
Mr. JENNER. What was the substance of the conversation, first?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Well, he saw me looking at the
paper and he wanted to know if I understood anything that was written there, as
I had written down a couple of characters and I told him I read a little and
understood a little, and therefore I asked him if he could read the paper, and
he said, "Yes," he understood Russian very well, and that was possibly
the thing that brought our friendship or acquaintanceship closer to being a
friendship than anyone else's down there.
Mr. JENNER. You discovered a common interest other than your work?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Where had you learned to decipher Russian characters?
Mr. OFSTEIN. I learned this while I was in the service.
Mr. JENNER. Where were you stationed?
Mr. OFSTEIN. I was stationed in
Mr. JENNER Did you take any work in the language school out in
Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. What language did you study there?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Russian.
Mr. JENNER Tell me how that came about?
Mr. OFSTEIN Well, when I went in the service I was interested in radio--I
was a disc jockey at the time, and the closest thing my recruiting sergeant
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said
that I could get to radio would be possibly with the Army security agency, so I
signed up, and after basic training I went to Fort Devens, Mass., and was held
there on a temporary status while the agency determined what type training I
should have, and I was given a language ability test and passed that and had a
choice of three languages to take, and Russian was my first choice and I
was sent to Monterey to study.
Mr. JENNER. And how long were you at
Mr. OFSTEIN. One year.
Mr. JENNER. And was that entire year spent in the study of the Russian
language?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And I assume, with an entire year's study at that special
Mr. OFSTEIN. Not as well as I should have; no, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And why was that?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Well, I was a little on the young side then and I was
interested in other things and the freedom to leave the post and go to town and
the availability of recreation there deterred my studies.
Mr. JENNER. I see you acquired some facility in reading Russian?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And some facility in speaking Russian?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Was this conversational Russian?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir
Mr. JENNER. What about writing Russian?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir; all that was covered.
Mr. JENNER. And at the end of the 1 year what happened?
Mr. OFSTEIN. I was sent to an oversea duty station in
Mr. JENNER. Did you pursue your study of the Russian language at anytime
from the time you left
Mr. OFSTEIN. Only in little--what you might say, self study in spurts.
Mr. JENNER. All right. I interrupted you--you told him you could handle
few characters?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you then tell him about your study of the Russian
language when you were in the Army?
Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir; he asked me where I had learned it and I told him I
had picked it up during the time I was in the service, as well as the German
language, which I picked up while I was stationed in Germany, and I asked him
where he had learned to read Russian and he wouldn't elaborate on it at first,
and after a period of time I don't know how long--he did admit to me that he had
been in the Soviet Union and my assumption was possibly that he had worked as an
agent of the United States at the first.
Mr. JENNER. What did he tell you, if he ever did, as to where he acquired
his knowledge of and facility with the Russian language?
Mr. OFSTEIN. He never did elaborate on whether he learned it in the
Mr. JENNER. He was uncommunicative on that subject?
Mr. OFSTEIN. More or less; yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. But you did ask him directly?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And he did not respond?
Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did you attempt to converse with him in Russian or he with
you?
Mr. OFSTEIN. We said a few words in Russian to each other--I would more
or less ask him or tell him. "Good morning" and ask him how he was
feeling or some other things like that, and he would respond and usually make a
criticism on my ability to speak the language.
Mr. JENNER. He would make criticism--was that a friendly criticism on his
part?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.
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Mr. JENNER. It wasn't ridicule?
Mr. OFSTEIN. No sir.
Mr. JENNER. All right; go ahead.
Mr. OFSTEIN. And he seemed very happy of the fact that I was able to
speak a little Russian, and he seemed to enjoy that more than any of the other
things down there.
Mr. JENNER. With regard to your facility with the language, did you have
a greater facility to--understand it
when spoken by someone else than you did with reading it or speaking it
yourself?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And did he speak to you in Russian from time to time?
Mr. OFSTEIN. From time to time--very seldom.
Mr. JENNER. You say he asked you to help him make an enlargement of a
print or of a film?
Mr. OFSTEIN. It was a print and he wanted a negative on it, so I got him
a continuous tone negative, which is the type required for reproduction.
Mr. JENNER. Would you tell us what you mean by that--somebody has a
positive print?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And that's what he had?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Right.
Mr. JENNER. And it showed a river and a nice building in the background?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And he wanted it enlarged?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. What did you do?
Mr. OFSTEIN. I shot a negative of it from a masking film, which is
the type film required to reproduce a photograph such as is used by most
people of children or their houses or their cars, and showed him how to put it
in the enlarger and blow it up and the type of paper to use, the different
contrasts of paper, and he made the enlargement of the print. It was a pretty
rough print--it had been torn at one time.
Mr. JENNER, You mean his print had been torn?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Was it a photograph or a postcard, or was it something that
you were under the impression he had taken?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Himself?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Right.
Mr. JENNER. With a camera--what I would call a Brownie camera?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. That sort of thing?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Right.
Mr. JENNER. All right; go ahead.
Mr. OFSTEIN. After I showed him how to do that, he experimented with it a
little bit and got what he thought was possibly the best reproduction he could
have gotten of it, and several times thereafter he made enlargements of pictures
that he had while he was in the service, pictures that he said were taken in
Japan, showing snow on the ground in bivouac areas and so on with himself in
several of them.
Mr. JENNER. Were there any more pictures of
Mr. OFSTEIN. Not that I noticed. If he
had any he didn't show them.
Mr. JENNER. But he did not have the facility himself to make these
enlargements, you had to show him how to do it?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. About what period of time was this with respect to when he
started working and when his employment was terminated?
Mr. OFSTEIN. I would just make a guess that it was about 1 month after he
started, because he seemed interested in whether the company would allow him to
reproduce his own pictures, and I told him that while they didn't sanction that
sort of thing, that people do it now and then.
They do it occasionally and end up reproducing a couple of pictures that
wasn't anything out of the way.
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Mr. JENNER. He did reach a point where he told you something of his
background?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. His past history?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Tell us about that.
Mr. OFSTEIN. Well he said that he was in the
Marine Corps and that after he disclosed that he had been in the Soviet Union,
he told me that that had been after his tour of service with the Marines, and
again he wouldn't elaborate on how he was there or why he was there, and as I
say, at that time I presumed he was possibly with the U.S. Government or on a
scholarship basis or some other basis and just didn't want to talk about it, so
I didn't pursue it any further, and I discarded this idea after I learned that
he had a Russian wife.
Mr. JENNER. When did that develop?
Mr. OFSTEIN. That must have been about the middle or the latter part of
February of 1963.
Mr. JENNER. How did you learn that?
Mr. OFSTEIN. He brought it up one day when we were speaking of the
Russian language and I was talking to him about it--or we were talking together,
I should say, about the
Mr. JENNER. Can you tell us now what he said about what his life over
there and his reactions to it--what did he say in that whole area in substance?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Well, the main thing--he dwelled on their difference of life
mainly to do with their food and the habits of the people and the military
installations and the disbursement of the military units.
He mentioned that they used caviar over there on bread the way we use
butter, because of the lack of butter and dairy products, and how you would find
things like loaves of bread on the tables in the cafes and restaurants the way
we would find salt and pepper over here. He also mentioned about the Russian
guards. At this time he disclosed that the building in the photograph was some
military headquarters and that the guards stationed there were armed with
weapons and ammunition and had orders to shoot any trespassers or anyone trying
to enter the building without permission.
He also mentioned about the disbursement of the military units, saying
that they didn't intermingle their armored divisions and infantry divisions and
various units the way we do in the United States, that they would have all of
their aircraft in one geographical location and their tanks in another
geographical location, and their infantry in another, and he mentioned that in
Minsk he never saw a vapor trail, indicating the lack of aircraft in the area.
He also said about the Russian people that they were sentimental or serious
people and somewhat simple, that----
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me; I just wondered if you misspoke--you said they
were sentimental and serious, did you intend both of those words?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Well, I was more
or less searching for the right words. I remember he said they were simple and
more or less serious minded. They were more mindful of world events than he
thought the American people were, but that they didn't have the war hysteria, as
he called it, that the people in the
He said whenever you saw any indication in the Russian newspapers of war,
that the Soviet people thought it was relatively close because of the lack of
publication about it, such as at the Lebanon crisis and he mentioned that he had
been in Moscow, I believe, and a couple of other cities other than Minsk.
Mr. JENNER. Did he name any others besides
Mr. OFSTEIN. He possibly did, but I don't recall what they would have
been.
Mr. JENNER. Is it your recollection that he did mention some others,
though you cannot recall the name or, are you uncertain that he did mention any
others at all that he had been in?
Mr. OFSTEIN. I'm not extremely certain at all; it's possible that he did.
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Mr. JENNER. All right; when you were speaking freely without any
prompting on my part, you mentioned
Mr. OFSTEIN. That he had mentioned them, but exactly what they were,
whether they were large towns or whether they were small towns--I don't recall--
whether he just visited them or had some purpose in being there, he never did
mention that at all.
He mentioned that he was in Moscow for the May
Day parade at one time and that the Soviets made a big show of power of their
latest tanks and planes and so forth, and I asked him at one time about his
freedom of movement, and he said that he had complete freedom of movement over
there, that the MVD, I believe it was, had inquired of his neighbors about him
and had talked to him on one occasion or two, but that they didn't put any holds
on him or restrict him from any areas or anything like that, and I believe it
was about this time that he mentioned he had married the White Russian girl.
Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about where the Russian girl he married
was?
Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. What was your impression as to where she was?
Mr. OFSTEIN. My impression was that he was living with her--that he had
her here in the
Mr. JENNER. But he didn't say anything that would lead you now to think
or recall the statement on his part that she was with him in the
Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes; he did mention it. He mentioned that he had gotten
several books from the library at times to take home for him and his wife to
read.
Mr. JENNER. In his discussions of life in
Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did you get any impression as to how he regarded his life in
Mr. OFSTEIN. Only that he didn't think it was the type of life that he
wanted to lead.
Mr. JENNER. Did he expand on that to any extent?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Well, he said that the people there were poor, they worked
and made just about enough to buy their clothes and their food; that the only
ones who had enough money to buy anything else, any of the luxuries in life,
were those who were Communist Party officials or high ranking members in party,
and I asked him at one time if he were a Communist and he said, "No."
Mr. JENNER. Did he voice any criticism of the Communist Party
members--did he make any negative remarks?
Mr. OFSTEIN. No; only that he didn't think that he would enjoy the
Communist way of life.
Mr. JENNER. Did he express any views to you with respect to his reaction
to the Government of the
Mr. OFSTEIN. No; he mentioned the last day he was with Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall--I
asked him what he was going to do, where he would go to work, and he said he
didn't know. He liked the type of work at the company and that he would like to
stay with this type of work and he would look around and if he didn't find
anything else he could always go back to the Soviet Union, and sort of laughed
about it.
Mr. JENNER. Do you think that comment of his with respect to returning to
the
Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes; it was sort of a flippant remark--"If I don't get
a job here, I can go someplace else," and I mentioned at the time to him of
a couple other shops around town that did that kind of work and suggested that
he go see them.
Mr. JENNER. What was his response, if any to that?
Mr. OFSTEIN. He said he might give them a try.
Mr. JENNER. This was at the tail end of his employment with this company?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes; this was the last day.
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Mr. JENNER. How did he appear that day or react to the news which he
received that his employment was being terminated?
Mr. OFSTEIN. He seemed like he was calm, just like any other day except
that he told me this was his last day with the company and more or less like it
was just the end of the job and he was going to try to find another one.
Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything of whether he had been let out or whether
he had quit?
Mr. OFSTEIN. He just said he had been relieved from his duties as
cameraman.
Mr. JENNER Did he express any resentment in that connection?
Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. When he first came with the company, how did he get along
with his fellow employees?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Not very well---just enough to talk to the people who were
working alongside of him to learn what he had to do.
Mr. JENNER. Did those conditions or relations improve as the months went
along?
Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir; they worsened.
Mr. JENNER. They worsened?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did they worsen before this Russian language newspaper turned
up, or did they really begin to worsen when the Russian language newspaper
turned up?
Mr. OFSTEIN. They worsened before this.
Mr. JENNER. You saw him every day that he worked?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And that you worked?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And you had some interest in him as a person?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. What was the reason for the difficulties he had with respect
to fellow employees, and why did those relationships worsen?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Well, we work in a rather tight area. There is little room
to move around in the darkroom, just about enough room for a man to stand by the
developing trays and allow one person to squeeze behind him and get by, and he
would make it a habit of just bursting through there head on with no regard to
who was in the room if anyone was there, and also we were required to get proofs
of the work we had done on a Bruning machine, which is somewhat like a Thermofax--it
works on the same principle of making proof
of it or a copy of it.
Mr. JENNER. I tried a patent case against the
Bruning Co., so I know what their machines are.
Mr. OFSTEIN. But the other department with which we shared the Bruning
machine requires a little more delicate work with the machine, as their proofs
are proofread. Ours are just for further use in case a job comes back and we
need to know what was on the job. He would burst in there and if someone else
was on it, didn't make him any difference, he would go ahead and put his work
through and, of course, this made people mad about it.
Mr. JENNER. How would you describe all this, that he was inconsiderate?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And selfish and
aggressive with respect to himself and impatient with the rights of others?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes; I think he thought he had the right of way in any case,
either that or he was just in a hurry to get through, and through his hurrying
be made no regard for anyone else's well-being or anyone else's jobs.
Mr. JENNER. Go ahead.
Mr. OFSTEIN. I never heard
him ask anyone to go to lunch with him, or no one, including myself, that I
recall, asked him to go to lunch, I believe I might have asked him at one time
and he always ate alone.
Mr. JENNER. Did he eat with you?
Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Even though you asked him?
Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir;
not a bit.
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Mr. JENNER. But you did ask him?
Mr. OFSTEIN. I believe I did; yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And he declined?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And at least he didn't accept the invitation?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Right.
Mr. JENNER. Did you notice in particular, since you mentioned this
without my prompting, that he did eat all by himself?
Mr. OFSTEIN. I noticed that he didn't eat with anyone in the shop.
Mr. JENNER. He was not a friendly person, then?
Mr. OFSTEIN. He wasn't an outgoing person. I thought he could be friendly
if, as with the Russian language incident--there was something in common,
something that would take an interest in.
Mr. JENNER. But he made no effort to develop things in common with
others; is that right?
Mr. OFSTEIN. No; that's right.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have any impression that he had an attitude of
resentment toward anybody or anything or his lot in life?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Not extremely or exactly resentment. I would say he didn't
get along with people and that several people had words with him at times about
the way he barged around the plant, and one of the fellows back in the
photosetter department almost got in a fight with him one day, and I believe it
was Mr. Graef that stepped in and broke it up before it got started, but he was
also offered rides by Mr. Graef, and I offered him a ride a couple of times
either to his home or wherever he
wanted to catch a bus, and I know that he always declined my offer of a ride.
Mr. JENNER. What did he say?
Mr. OFSTEIN. He said; no, he would go ahead and walk, and usually in the
evening when he would leave he would say, "I am going up to the post office
to pick up my mail, and a couple of
times I would offer to give him a ride up this way, as it wasn't much out of my
way and I have to come in this direction anyway to Live Oak before I turn, which
is only about a block difference, and he always declined to ride and would walk.
Mr. JENNER. Did the subject matter of his experience with firearms ever
arise?
Mr. OFSTEIN. I don't believe so.
Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion at any time in which he indicated or
in which there was discussion of his ability in the use of firearms?
Mr. OFSTEIN. It seems that he said while he was in the Marines that he
qualified as a marksman.
Mr. JENNER. By the way, what is that rating; do you know?
Mr. OFSTEIN. I'm not certain in the Marines--it differs from
the Army, I am sure.
Mr. JENNER. What is a marksman in the Army, what level of skill is that?
Mr. OFSTEIN. If I remember correctly, marksman is just barely qualifying,
and "expert," of course, is the top you can go.
Mr. JENNER. I have read about snipers--are they "experts", is
that their classification?
Mr. OFSTEIN. I'm not certain, but I'm sure they have to be fairly handy
with a weapon.
Mr. JENNER. Your recollection is a little uncertain in this area, is it
not?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. That is, with respect to what Oswald might or did say to you
on the subject?
Mr. OFSTEIN. I know he said he qualified and I'm almost certain that he
said as a marksman.
Mr. JENNER. Did your discussion go beyond that; did he elaborate on it in
other words?
Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And that's about the only instance in your recollection in
which there was a discussion on the
subject?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER What about his industry, his promptness, his attendance?
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Mr. OFSTEIN. He seemed to usually arrive on time
and expressed a desire to work overtime if he was needed, except during the week
at times there were periods when he said he had to go to school and he would
leave with some books, I believe they were typing books from the library, and he
mentioned that he was going to Crozier Tech at night, and I believe this was one
night a week or two at the most. Other than that, he was there every day, the
best I recall, and he did work one Saturday.
Mr. JENNER. Did he have difficulty obtaining Saturday work from the
company?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Why?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Well, they go on an experience and seniority basis as to
overtime. The people with more seniority have a choice as to whether they want
to work or not and usually they do.
Mr. JENNER. To make that extra money?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And also, does skill have anything to do with it--you
mentioned experience---you meant to include in that experience his skill for the
level of attainment?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER, And he had not reached the point at which all of these
factors combined enabled him to command or be reasonably fortunate in respect to
having overtime work?
Mr. OFSTEIN Right.
Mr. JENNER. Had your skills reached the point at which you had overtime
work on Saturday when you sought it?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. What about his aptitudes with respect to the work for which
he was being trained?
Mr. OFSTEIN. He always strived to try to do good. It seemed like he was
fast, but I noticed that quite a few of his jobs that he did perform did come
back within a normal working day.
Mr. JENNER. More than the normal?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir; I would say so.
Mr. JENNER. There are errors always made, I suppose, by everybody?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. But your impression is that his percentage of error was above
average?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion of that in and among your fellow
workers and with Mr. Graef?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes; it was battered around for quite awhile exactly how
long, I don't know. About the way that he was turning out a lot of work, because
it had to be redone, therefore wasting company materials.
Mr. JENNER. And time?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir; and they had decided, I believe, it must have been
a month before they finally let him go--to dismiss him.
Mr. JENNER Was that the general scuttlebutt around the place?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. That he was reaching the end of his employment?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did ever the occasion. arise when
you learned anything with respect to whether he was ever able to operate
an automobile or ever owned one or got in one to drive it?
Mr. OFSTEIN . No, sir; every time I saw him on the street coming down,
this way after work he was walking.
Mr. JENNER. Did he ever bring any of these books to work--books as
distinguished from newspapers?
Mr. OFSTEIN . I don't recall
if he did or not, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Was it a Russian newspaper that elicited this discussion
between you as to the use of the Russian language, or was it a book?
Mr. OFSTEIN . It was a newspaper.
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Mr JENNER. Not a book?
Mr. OFSTEIN. No sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did you tell him where you had learned Russian?
Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir; I just said while I was in
the service I had picked it up.
Mr. JENNER. Did he at any
time ever say or did you ever get the impression
that he had studied Russian while he was in the service?
Mr. OFSTEIN No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Your impression was what in that connection?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Well, that he
could either have learned it while in the
Mr. JENNER. At a private
school?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes; private
or public school.
Mr. JENNER. But not while he
was in the service?
Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir; he
never led me to believe that.
Mr. JENNER. The information
he gave you with respect to the disposition of military units in Russia--that
information was of the character you have already related--that the tanks were
in one area?
Mr. OFSTEIN . Yes, sir.
Mr JENNER. And the other
types of equipment in another, and
did he tell you where these
various units
were?
Mr. OFSTEIN. The best I
recall, he mentioned that, as I say, that he never
saw a vapor trail of a plane around
Mr. JENNER. Of what?
Mr. OFSTEIN. In the
Mr. JENNER. In relating this to you, was it in terms of
his having seen these units?
Mr. OFSTEIN. That was the impression I got, though he never directly said
so.
Mr. JENNER . Did he say anything about--after you learned that he was
married to a Russian woman--did he say anything to you about how he had met her
and courted her or any of the circumstances with respect to his marrying her?
Mr. OFSTEIN . No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. It was just that he had married a Russian citizen?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Right.
Mr. JENNER. And brought her
to this country?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did he say a
thing about his military career?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Only that he had
served in the Marines and that he
had served in
Mr. JENNER. Did he say
anything about his discharge from the Marines?
Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. By the way when you first met this man, had you
ever heard of him before or
anything about him to your then
recollection?
Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. What else
did he say about the military dispositions?
Mr. OFSTEIN. He said he felt it was a rather poor way to distribute
the military because of
the fact that support needed by one type
of unit, such as the infantry, needs
tanks--took such a long delay because they had to move it
from another segment of the
country and that he thought this was a rather poor situation.
Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about the location of
the--these units--were they widely disbursed, that is--let's take a tank
unit--did you get the impression that the unit would be located far away from
Minsk or near Minsk?
Mr. OFSTEIN. I believe he
said the tanks were in the north and I'm not
familiar whether
Mr. JENNER. Did you get the impression they were not in
Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes sir.
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Mr. JENNER. What did he say, if anything, about units that were located
in and about
Mr. OFSTEIN. The only thing he mentioned along that line was the military
headquarters and to the best of my recollection, it was a secret police.
Mr. JENNER. You mentioned in the--is that what you mean by the secret
police, the NVD?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER And, that they had a headquarters there in
Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did he make any comment about the MVD?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Only that they had inquired about him several times and that
they didn't follow him around. He said they were somewhat like our own Federal
Bureau of Investigation.
Mr. JENNER Did he ever make any comparison that was, you thought, an
attempt at being invidious with respect to the FBI as against the MVD?
Mr. OFSTEIN . No, sir; he just said that their operations were somewhat
similar in checking out people they wanted to check on.
Mr. JENNER. Other than that, did he ever say anything about the FBI?
Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about his observations that regarded, for
example, an area in which he could see jet contrails, whether he would also find
nearby, or even at a distance, any other military units?
Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir; he said if he saw tank treads of tanks, that he
wouldn't see aircraft or infantry units nearby, and that if he saw contrails, it
was the same as the infantry units, that they just wouldn't intermingle them.
Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything to you about what had led him to make
these observations?
Mr. OFSTEIN . Well, as I said earlier that he had never seen any
contrails, he said, in the Minsk area and that he had been in Moscow and I
presumed he had seen the type units that were stationed at Minsk and possibly at
Moscow.
Mr. JENNER. Is there any work done at Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall
with the use of microdot?
Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER . Do you know what a microdot is?
Mr. OFSTEIN. That was explained to me by Lee Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. Tell us about that.
Mr. OFSTEIN. He asked me one day if I knew the term "microdot",
and I told him, "no", I wasn't familiar with it and he told me that
that was the method of taking a large area of type or a picture and .reducing it
down to an extremely small size for condensing and for purposes, such as where
you had a lot of type to photograph to confine them into a small area, and he
said that that is the way spies sometimes sent messages and pictures of diagrams
and so on, was to take a microdot photograph of it and place it under a stamp
and send it. I presumed that he had either read this in a book or had some
knowledge of it from somewhere, but where, I didn't know.
Mr. JENNER. When did this conversation occur with respect to the
termination of his employment?
Mr. OFSTEIN. This was possibly 2 or 3 months before.
Mr. JENNER. So, this was after the time that the Russian newspaper had
shown up?
Mr. OFSTEIN. I believe it
was; yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER Was it after the time you learned that he married a Russian
girl and brought her to this country?
Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. That occurred
afterwards?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. What reaction did you have when
Oswald talked about--raised the subject of microdots and their use or possible
use in espionage?
Mr. OFSTEIN. I just thought that as far as he was concerned, it was
possibly another phase of
photography and that he was
interested in it. It has since, come up down at the company--the use of
microdots and the different techniques,
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but
we are still not employing those techniques and I thought possibly that he might
have also, as I have several times, come to read things about microfilm and, of
course, you see it in these science fiction movies of space travel and so the
use of microfilm, and I presumed this was along the same lines.
Mr. JENNER. Did it ever arouse in you any alarm or any doubt?
Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir; I just thought it was possibly a passing piece of
conversation.
Mr. JENNER. Here again you didn't become suspicious or concerned?
Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did you speak to anybody about that incident?
Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir. After Oswald was released from employment, I did
ask the recruiting sergeant for Army security here in town, who I was stationed
with overseas, about the possibility of getting the FBI to run a routine check
on him because of the fact that I have done security work, and the. fact that I
also--this was just before I wrote the letter to Oswald inviting him and his
wife over--due to the fact that I wanted to keep my record clean. Well, I didn't
suspect him as being a spy or anything like
that--I just wanted to make sure I was with the right company, and he told me
that it was probably nothing.
Mr. JENNER. You wanted to inquire not only with respect to him but also
whether you were with the right company?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Well, sir, I
wouldn't jeopardize losing any chance of getting a security clearance at anytime
I needed it.
Mr. JENNER. And, Sergeant Crozier, did you say his name was--I believe it
is Sergeant Geiger.
Mr. OFSTEIN. His first name
is Tom--I
can't remember his last name now.
Mr. JENNER. Or, is it Kriegler?
Mr. OFSTEIN . Kriegler yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. He had been in the service with you, you had served together?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And, he reassured you?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir; he said that it was probably nothing to worry
about.
Mr. JENNER. When you discussed this Russian language newspaper with
Oswald, was there anything said as to the source of the paper?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Not immediately. I believe it was possibly about 2 months
before he left--I asked him where he got the paper and I said that I wanted to
find a little more up-to-date material to study Russian with, than what you find
in the library, and that I had looked around town and on the newsstands that I
saw handling them--Russian language newspapers and he mentioned that he got it
from a firm in New York or Washington--Victor A. Kamkin.
Mr. JENNER. That's K-a-m-k-i-n [spelling]?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And, he gave you the address in
Mr. OFSTEIN. It was
Mr. JENNER. The fact is you were uncertain, but you indicated
to the FBI more positively?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir; whenever the agent came to my home and picked up
the materials, the address was there and we clarified that.
Mr. JENNER. What materials did he pick up?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Well, Lee Oswald had given me a Russian newspaper, "The
Soviet White Russian," and a couple of magazines--the one being a
magazine newspaper type thing and
one a magazine, and the FBI agent wanted these--one of them had his handwriting
on the back.
Mr. JENNER. And, those were turned over to the
FBI?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did the FBI approach you or did you approach the FBI?
Mr. OFSTEIN. They approached me.
Mr. JENNER. When was that?
Mr. OFSTEIN. I believe it was sometime in December of last year.
Mr. JENNER. Of 1963?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.
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Mr. JENNER. It was after the assassination?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did any FBI agent to your knowledge ever speak to you about
Oswald anytime prior to November 22, 1963?
Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And, other than your talk with the recruiting sergeant,
Sergeant Kriegler, had you drawn the matter to the attention of any Government
agent or agency?
Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Do any of these names refresh your recollection as to the
newspapers or magazines .that he had--"Soviet White Russian"?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall that as being what?
Mr. OFSTEIN. A local newspaper from the White Russian portion of the
Mr. JENNER. And "The Crocodile"?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir; that was a--it would be hard to say whether that
would be a newspaper or a magazine. It seemed like it was thick and stapled as a
magazine, but in the form of a newspaper.
Mr. JENNER. And, then "The Agitator"?
Mr. OFSTEIN. That was a magazine.
Mr. JENNER. Now, did he speak of these or did he have one or more of
these off and on during his employment, or was there just one occasion that you
saw them?
Mr. OFSTEIN. I believe the only time he had them down there was one
incident when I picked them up and the other time later on when he brought these
to me with the address of Victor Kamkin.
Mr. JENNER. After the specific instance about which you have testified,
there was a subsequent instance in which he brought you for possible ordering
purposes, some additional either periodicals or newspapers?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Right.
Mr. JENNER. Among which were the names of which I have related to you?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Right. Now, he did mention that "The Agitator" was
a political magazine and that I probably wouldn't want to order.
Mr. JENNER. He did say that it might well be something you wouldn't want
to order?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Had you heard of "The Agitator" up to this point?
Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. At no time while you were at
Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Do they use Russian language
newspapers and periodicals, that is, printed in
Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. In the
Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did he surrender these pairs and these periodicals to you?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes; he gave them to me and I told him--I thanked him for
them and told him I would bring them back within a couple of days and I was
going to glance through them and he said that would be all right, that I could
keep them.
Mr. JENNER. That you could keep them and you didn't have to return them?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Right.
Mr. JENNER. You surrendered them to the FBI, did you?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. On those--it seems to me you said earlier there was some
handwriting on one or more of these newspapers or periodicals?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Whose handwriting?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Lee Oswald's.
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Mr. JENNER. Was the
handwriting on those newspapers or periodicals placed on those items in your
presence?
Mr. OFSTEIN. I believe they were--I believe that was the address of
Victor Kamkin on the back of one of them.
Mr. JENNER. That is, Oswald in your presence wrote the address of Kamkin
on some one of these documents?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes. sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did you seek to have him help you with your Russian
beyond what you have now related to us?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes. sir; I asked him if he knew any other
people who spoke Russian, and he indicated that he did--that he knew
several Russian immigrants and I asked him at the time if he would be able to
give me anyone's address so that I could speak with them and build up my
vocabulary and my ability to speak it, and he just kept putting me off and
saying, "In time you will meet them, in time you'll meet them" and I
never did meet any of them.
Mr. JENNER. Did. he give any reason for his apparent putting you off?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir; he said that these people liked to speak with
Americans who had an interest in their language, but they wouldn't want
to take just anyone who went down to the library and pick up a book and
sputtered off a few words. He said they enjoyed having someone around who could
more or less keep up a running conversation with them.
Mr. JENNER You
thought he was classifying you as one who had a fairly poor command of
the language?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes. sir.
Mr. JENNER. And that he had some hesitation about throwing you in with a
group that spoke fluently?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. This was not a derogatory attitude on his part?
Mr. OFSTEIN.
No, sir; he said with a little bit of study that I could
possibly get in with the groups
and speak with them.
Mr. JENNER And your feeling
is fairly firm that his reluctance in that connection was along the lines you
have indicated rather than a desire on his part to keep you from that group?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER Do you feel that
had you had a better command of the Russian language he would have been willing
to introduce you into that circle?
Mr. OFSTEIN. I believe he
would have; yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know whether he had any social contact with any of the
people in the plant?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Not to my knowledge
no, sir.
Mr. JENNER. What is your impression as to whether he did or didn't?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Well, I feel that he possibly got along with me better than
anyone else down there and we had no social contact.
Mr. JENNER. He had none with you and you rationalized from that he had
none with anybody else?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes. sir.
Mr. JENNER. That judgment was affected
by the fact also that he appeared not to be getting along very well with
others in the plant?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did he say
anything about being a Marxist?
Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Was the subject ever mentioned?
Mr. OFSTEIN. No.
Mr. JENNER. You mentioned the secret police, did any conversation ever
occur with respect to any contact
his with or any contact by,
the secret police with him?
Mr. OFSTEIN. He said that
they talked to him once or twice while he was there and that was all out that
mainly it was just like the FBI would be running a check on someone her they
would speak with people who knew them or who were located
round them.
Mr. JENNER. Was there anything ever discussed during the period he was
employed about any particular problems of his
in
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this--any
attempt on his part to defect from the
Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Any illnesses on his part?
Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Any difficulties he may or did or might have encountered in
connection with his return to the
Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Or of his getting his wife out of
Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Was the subject
of his getting out of
Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Was the problem with the Cuban
nation or with Mr. Castro or any of Castro's activities ever discussed?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir; at one time when they were having a little
difficulty down there, I don't recall just what the difficulty was at the time,
but I made a rather derogatory remark about Fidel Castro's ancestry, and he
never seemed to get upset about it.
Mr. JENNER. You just got no response out of him at all on that?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Just a sort of a shrug of the shoulders.
Mr. JENNER. I noticed there was a discussion between you or he with you,
at least, about keeping to yourself the fact that he had been in
Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Was there such an incident?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER, Will you tell us about it--how it arose, what the
circumstances were, and what he said and what you said?
Mr. OFSTEIN. I believe it was the same time that he informed me that he
had been in the Soviet Union--he mentioned that he didn't want it to get around,
at this time this was the time I got the impression that possibly he had been an
agent--what was a fleeting impression--and I remarked later that apparently he
had told someone else down there because someone mentioned it to me about his
having a Russian wife .
Mr. JENNER. Was this before he told you he had one?
Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir; this was after in fact, I believe it was after he
had been released from employment, but at the time, that he did ask me to keep
the fact that he had been in Russia to myself, I presumed that I was the only
one that knew anything about his Russian activities, that he had even been in
the Soviet Union or had a Russian wife.
Mr. JENNER. I wonder if this would sort, of refresh your
recollection--Victor Kamkin Bookstore, Inc.,
Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir; that seems like it, that seems like it.
Mr. JENNER. That sparks your recollection--with
Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever write Kamkin?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes; I got several catalogues from him.
Mr JENNER. Did you ever order any Russian literature from him?
Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Is there anything that occurs to you that you think might be
pertinent to the subject matter of the Commission's investigation, which I
haven't prompted up to the moment?
Mr. OFSTEIN. As directly related to the assassination?
Mr. JENNER. Well--either way you feel free to say.
Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir to the best of my knowledge no.
Mr. JENNER. Is there anything on the subject matter along the lines that
I have questioned you that is in your contacts with Lee Oswald which have not
been brought out, that you would like to tell
us about, which you think might be helpful?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Nothing that I can recall.
As I say, most of the things that he did tell me I thought were mainly in
the lines of conversation and nothing more,
and that he never made any political advances one way or the other or
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gave
his own political views. I mean, he
never told me anything derogatory
about the
Mr. JENNER. All right, if you wish, you may read your deposition and make
any corrections in it and sign it, or you are of liberty to waive that if you
wish. You can do whatever you want
either way, but you have the right to read it and correct it if it needs
correcting or additions and to sign it. I
would like to know either way so that in case you decide to waive it, the
reporter has a kind of a certification different from the kind
hat is put on when you elect to sign it.
Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And you are entitled to a copy
of the deposition if you wish to purchase one from this young lady, and
you can make arrangements with her in that respect.
Mr. OFSTEIN. Fine. I will waive the right to sign.
Mr. JENNER. And if at anytime you want a copy of your deposition, call
Miss Oliver and if you happen to forget her name, talk to the
Mr. OFSTEIN. Fine.
Mr. JENNER. Thank you very much for coming.
Mr. OFSTEIN. All right. Thank
you .
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