Testimony of Hal Verb
Texas -- November 18, 1994 Hearing
MARWELL: Mr. Hal Verb.
CHAIRMAN TUNHEIM: Mr. Verb, we didn't have you on the list ahead of
time. Could you spell your name for the record?
VERB: Yes, my name is Hal, H-a-l, and the last name is Verb, that is
like pronoun, subject, V-e-r-b.
CHAIRMAN TUNHEIM: Go ahead, sir. Thank you.
VERB: I am from San Francisco. I am a private researcher. I have been
conducting research for about 30 years, in fact, almost from the very
first day of the assassination because it was a tremendous event in
American history, still unresolved in my mind, and still unresolved in
the minds of most of the American public. That is why I am here, and
that is why you are here.
here as a private citizen who is deeply concerned to know the full truth
about the assassination of President Kennedy. Today I wish to call
attention to a serious question that has long lingered about the event,
and that is precisely the accused assassin, Lee Harvey Oswald, and his
alleged association, connection or involvement with the U.S. Government
as a possible agent for an agency or agencies that represented the U.S.
Regardless of whether one believes or asserts that there was no
conspiracy or there was a conspiracy, the unresolved question of
Oswald's ties to the U.S. Government looms large and, indeed, hangs over
us like the proverbial Damocles sword, and that is over all of us,
including the U.S. Government, whether the U.S. Government is in any way
connected or not.
realize fully well that virtually no government reveals its agents or
its methods of operations, but in the matter of the President Kennedy's
death this question can no longer be ignored, and the longer it is
avoided the greater the harm that will befall us all.
focus the attention of the Review Board more closely in this regard, I
specifically call your attention to a radio program that I appeared on
in December 1966 which was several hours long and concerned the Kennedy
murder. I was in the radio station studio, this was in Oakland,
California, and the other half of the program was a telephone hook-up to
a Maryland writer and researcher Harold Weisberg who had written and
began a series of books called Whitewash, the Whitewash series.
end of the program, the program moderator received a call from an
individual who did not wish to be heard on the radio, and who stated he
wished to speak only to Mr. Weisberg confidentially. Now I was able to
hear the contents of this discussion, the entire discussion between Mr.
Weisberg and the caller, and the phone call from the individual who
insisted that he not be identified and who wanted to remain anonymous.
In fact, Weisberg asked the individual if you desire to come forward,
you always know how to reach me, but this individual never did step
going to go into what the nature of this call was. The gist of the phone
call was this. The caller had been a barracks roommate of Lee Harvey
Oswald who was stationed at El Toro Marine Corps Base in California. The
caller stated that about two weeks before Oswald received his so-called
alleged hardship discharge, which is all over the record, can be
established, he was constantly in the CID Headquarters being briefed for
a mission overseas.
The caller provided the information that Oswald also had a crypto
raise this matter because if, indeed, the CID was involved in such an
event -- I am not here to state flatly that they did engage in this, I
don't know, I want the evidence to be presented -- it would necessarily
follow that the ONI, which is the Office of Naval Intelligence, must
certainly have been aware of this. It just boggles my mind.
one time served in an intelligence section during the Korean War, and it
is impossible for me to believe that the CID could not have had in some
way connection or approval by the ONI.
mention ONI because there is a lot of speculation in the literature,
some of which you may have read, you may not have, and none of this
speculation has proven to be final, and this speculation is pointing to
Oswald being connected in some capacity with the ONI. Other writers will
suggest FBI, CIA, my concern here is with the ONI.
Recently Professor John Newman, who has appeared I believe at the last
hearing, he has been looking into this matter, and has stated that as
significant portion of the ONI files relative to JFK have been
destroyed. There are still remaining, however, at least two boxes of ONI
files that still have to be gone through. I have not, myself, seen these
so I do not know what the nature of those files consist of. I believe it
is incumbent upon this Board to reach a fairly definitive determination
as why, when and how these ONI files were destroyed and whose
responsibility it was for the destruction.
ONI files necessarily involve the Navy Department, it appears evident
that those individuals from the Secretary of the Navy on downward, and
those immediately below charged with their necessary responsibilities be
asked precisely about the issues and points raised in my statement
is not done, history will not be served, and the American people will
once again, as in prior investigations, be the ultimate losers.
Respectfully, that is my -- I will be willing to send you this entire
statement in a letter which I will forward to the Board, and I will
answer any questions that you have about this.
CHAIRMAN TUNHEIM: Thank you, Mr. Verb.
GRAFF: What do you mean, Mr. Verb, by crypto security clearance?
VERB: Well, a crypto secret clearance has to do, as the caller
explained -- I didn't get into it further. Actually crypto secret
clearance is mentioned in the Warren Commission documents, in its actual
Warren Commission volumes. I found that out after having looked into it.
You can find them.
secret clearance is a very specialized high security clearance that
very, very few people would obtain in any capacity, and it is
interesting to note that at this time while Oswald was in the Marine
Corps he was receiving "Communist literature," so you have a
pro-Communist, Marxist having crypto secret clearance.
talked to a General who was an aide to President Kennedy, who
accompanied President Kennedy, I asked him about crypto secret
clearance. He knew about it. He said, I have not confirmed this, that
the only way that you could obtain crypto secret clearance is that you
had first top secret clearance. Crypto secret clearance had to do with
black box stuff, which is the information provided on atomic warhead
missiles in case of atomic attack. I understand the Strategic Air
Command has the capacity for this kind of information. I don't know
precisely the nature of it, I haven't looked into it further.
have spoken to people who have had crypto secret clearance, many people,
in fact, that I have spoken to who have pretty much asserted that what I
have learned through this broadcast and other means turns out to be
fairly accurate, and I only go by what I can document. I am not
interested in speculation. I do not go by hearsay to the extent that I
simply believe every single theory. I want documentation to prove what
can be clearly set in the record and determined to be the truth.
HALL: Have you made requests of the United States Government?
VERB: No, I have not. I have not. In fact, I have never issued a single
FOIA request in the years that I have been doing this, although I have
relied on other FOIA requests from other -- not necessarily connected
with this particular issue, but I have interviewed people who would have
been in a position to know precisely what this kind of clearance was,
and the nature of ONI and related matters.
HALL: Well, the issue that you raise, of course, is one that goes to the
availability or the destruction of materials held by the United States
HALL: May I ask why you decided or have foregone the opportunity to use
the Freedom of Information Act?
VERB: To be quite honest, I am primarily involved in so many other
areas. My area that I have been looking into is the photographic
evidence, and that takes an enormous amount of time. I write letters and
fact, I should mention one important thing that may go to the heart of
the matter. I recently received a call from a person who took Oswald's
place in the Marine Corps in his very position after he left and went to
Soviet Russia. I hope to be in communication with this person to find
out precisely what the nature, if he knows anything at all, about crypto
answer would be, I simply have not had the time to do this. If you have
been involved in this case, it is very time consuming. I have a
full-time job during the day. I am not a member of any particular group
or organization, nobody is sponsoring me. All the money I have put into
this basically simply because I desire the truth, and I think justice
will be served if the truth is known.
HALL: I do think it is the case that part of what the Board is
interested in is the efficacy and efficiency of the Freedom of
Information Act as it relates to this matter, so my questions are
directed to that issue and not directed necessarily to your personal
VERB: I understand that. Right.
CHAIRMAN TUNHEIM: Other questions?
VERB: Thank you for the opportunity.
CHAIRMAN TUNHEIM: Thank you, Mr. Verb. We appreciate your being here
Testimony of Roy Schaeffer
Dallas, Texas -- November 18, 1994 Hearing
MR. SCHAEFFER: My name is Roy Schaeffer and I am a private citizen,
and I never met Hal Verb, but I am --
CHAIRMAN TUNHEIM: Could you spell your name for the record?
MR. SCHAEFFER: Okay, it is S-c-h-a-e-f-f-e-r.
CHAIRMAN TUNHEIM: Thank you.
MR. SCHAEFFER: I am the person Hal Verb mentioned, I am the person
who replaced Oswald after he left El Toro in 1960. He left in 1959, and
I joined his unit. So I did have a crypto clearance. I don't want to get
Basically, what I would like to mention is, I am a private probably
an assassination buff more or less. In 1986, I contacted Jim Garrison,
and before he died he had sent -- well, when he got the Zapruder film
down at the trial on '66, he ran off 100 copies. Sometime in 1989, you
know, I received a copy from him, and then I have been researching using
a copy of the 100 that was made.
Now what I had found then at first, you know, I am interested in this
flawed editing of the Zapruder film, and I wondered, Zapruder said that
he had set his camera on a film speed of 24, and so over the years it
got me thinking. In 1963, I worked for the Dayton Daily News, and Hess &
Eisenhart was the company that rebuilt the Presidential Limousine, so I
had gone down there with a fellow reporter because I had like a
Okay, so anyway what was unique about that time was the emergency
lights on the Presidential car. Now the lights were interesting in one
aspect, they blinked, they would blink on one side and then on the
other. So one problem I had in -- so I know there was a constant blink
rate. Now, I have taken a lot of eight millimeter film. In other words,
if something has a constant blink rate and you are photographing it
through, like Zapruder, that Bell & Howell camera, then it would show a
In other words, if it found that the blink rate was .41 seconds, so
it would show a rate of nine blinks in the film. Now what I had
submitted, I believe you have that record I gave to Mr. Gunn, I plotted
from 133 to 238, and the pattern does not show up that way. So I am
suggesting, you know, to yourselves that that proves that alterations
was done to the Zapruder film.
Also on the night of the assassination, what I believe, the film --
in other words, Zapruder took the film to the Kodak lab in Dallas. Now I
have some film expertise. I served a six-year government sponsored
apprenticeship in film, and that had what they call a 14K process. This
14K process is how they developed Kodachrome. It is quite complicated.
At that time, the only place that had that process was here in Dallas
next to Love Field, and that was at the Dallas Eastman-Kodak lab.
From my information on the Max B. Phillips minimal, I think Paul Halp
talked about that on Commission Exhibit 450, that it shows that the
Zapruder film, and I believe three copies were flown to Washington the
night of the assassination, I believe they were taken into -- they had
five hours from my timetable. I worked with a Dr. James Fetzer on this,
and also Mike Pinser, he is an attorney. So any way, I interjected on
that, but anyway I lost my place when I said that. Could you help me? I
lost my place.
DR. HALL: You were saying only the Dallas Eastman-Kodak lab.
MR. SCHAEFFER: Okay. So anyway, it is a very complicated process, and
it takes about 45 seconds, so it is called the K-14 but the 14K process
because it is what they call a subtractive process. It is a reversal
film that like comes into a color transparency after it is developed.
So, in other words, I believe that they took the original film to the
National Interpretation Lab and at that point they altered it down to
approximately 18 frames per second. Like I say, in 1960 -- so what I am
saying is that I believe Frame Z-133 to 238 is where they altered that.
Now the way I found that out was, I personally had the film and I
went through and I plotted each blinking light per frame, and that is
how I derived that the film was altered. Unless you have the actual
film, you can't -- there is no way you can determine that.
So that is pretty much what I had to say. I thank you for your time.
CHAIRMAN TUNHEIM: Any questions for Mr. Schaeffer?
DR. NELSON: I have one. You say you replaced
Oswald, that is to say you took over all of his functions, his job?
MR. SCHAEFFER: That's correct.
DR. NELSON: Which were? What was the job assignment?
MR. SCHAEFFER: We worked at TACC, Tactical Air Control Center,
basically, and it was basically tracking IFF boxes. In other words
Strategic Air Command, and then they had like IFF boxes. And then they
would set those in the morning, and then your crypt orders would come
down from Washington, and they were like Zulu Time Rated, 24-hour time,
and then there was what you call
authentifications. So that is what a person that has crypt does.
So our job was, when the planes left the United States through the
EDACs area was to clear them and plot them, and so that was basically
what our job function was there at El Toro, and I am sure Oswald did the
MR. MARWELL: Mr. Chairman, in fact, Mr. Smith had signed up earlier.
CHAIRMAN TUNHEIM: Thank you, Mr. Schaeffer, we appreciate your help.
MR. SCHAEFFER: Thank you.