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Mirabal
DIAZ HSCA Volume
III TESTIMONY OF SENOR ALFREDO
MIRABAL DIAZ, ACCOMPANIED BY MR. HERVAS, INTERPRETER FROM THE STATE DEPARTMENT
Chairman STOKES. The Chair recognizes counsel, Michael Goldsmith.
Mr. GOLDSMITH. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Mirabal, when did you assume your position as Cuban consul in
Senor MIRABAL. September 2, 1963.
Mr. GOLDSMITH. How long had you worked in that capacity?
Senor MIRABAL. Eleven months.
Mr. GOLDSMITH. What hours of the day was the Cuban consulate open to the
public?
Senor MIRABAL. Ten in the morning to two in the afternoon.
Mr. GOLDSMITH. And what days of the week were these hours observed?
Senor MIRABAL. Monday through Friday.
Mr. GOLDSMITH. Was the consulate open to the public on Saturdays and
Sundays?
Senor MIRABAL. No.
Mr. GOLDSMITH. Mr. Mirabal, while you were Cuban consul in Mexico City,
did you ever see Lee Harvey Oswald?
Senor MIRABAL.
Twice, on two occasions, when he was at the consulate processing his visa
application.
Mr. GOLDSMITH. Did anything unusual happen when Oswald was applying for
his visa?
Senor MIRABAL. Yes; since he first came for the visa, I must note that I
do not know English, and therefore it was my colleague Azcue who took care of
him, though he had in fact concluded his responsibilities in the position. When
I arrived, he stayed on to help me out and he, together with the secretary, took
care of this visitor.
From inside my private office I could hear loud voices, and I came out of
my office several times to see what was happening in the area where the
secretary worked. I asked my colleague, Azcue, who was taking care of the
visitor, I did not know who the visitor was. But my colleague Azcue told me that
the visitor was in need Page 174 174 of an urgent visa, that he
was in a great hurry to travel to
Mr. GOLDSMITH. Did Mr. Oswald get involved in arguments with Mr. Azcue on
both occasions that he, Oswald, visited the consulate?
Senor MIRABAL
Yes; on both occasions there were discussions or arguments to such an extent
that from the very first moment it appeared to me as if this instance could be a
case of a provocation. I sensed that there was an intent to create some kind of
a scandal, of a disturbance. That was my feeling.
The second time
the same thing happened.
Mr.
GOLDSMITH. Approximately how long did these arguments last?
Senor MIRABAL.
Today I could not be exact or precise; 15 years have gone by since then. Some
time, 15, 20 minutes.
Mr. GOLDSMITH. And you had occasion to see Mr. Oswald on both of these
occasions?
Senor MIRABAL. Yes. I had an opportunity to see him. But it was from my
private office where I stuck my head over and had a look at him from that
vantage point.
Mr. GOLDSMITH. How far away from you was Mr. Oswald during these two
visits?
Senor MIRABAL. About 4 meters away.
Mr. GOLDSMITH. Do you recall when Mr. Oswald made his visits to the Cuban
consulate?
Senor MIRABAL. It was at the beginning or shortly after my arrival.
Mr. GOLDSMITH. At this time, Mr. Mirabal, I would like to refer your
attention to what has been marked as JFK exhibit F-408. That is the second
exhibit from the right. And I believe you have just been handed a copy of that
exhibit.
Mr. Mirabal, does the date on that application refresh your memory
as to when Oswald visited the Embassy?
Senor MIRABAL. Yes; it is close to the date of my arrival. Yes, in
addition the visa applications are filled in at the very time that they are
being requested, and this would be on the second occasion.
Mr. GOLDSMITH. Mr. Mirabal, please look at the picture that appears in
that application. Is the person whose picture appears in this visa application
the same Lee Harvey Oswald who visited the Cuban consulate requesting a visa?
Senor MIRABAL. I
really did not observe him with any great deal of interest. He for me was one of
many who visited the consulate. The image that I have of him, I believe that the
answer is yes, that he is the same person.
Mr. GOLDSMITH. Mr. Mirabal, after the assassination of President Kennedy,
was there ever any discussion at the Cuban consulate or Embassy concerning
whether the Oswald arrested in Dallas was actually the same person identified as
Oswald who visited your consulate requesting a visa in September 1963?
Senor MIRABAL. Yes; on the day following the assassination it is my own
secretary that communicates this information to me in the morning when I arrive
at the consulate. At that point, she advises Page 175 175 me of the fact that the
assassination has occurred. Later, and I cannot recall exactly how late or how
soon thereafter, she communicates to me the fact that the alleged assassin is
the same person that came to the consulate.
Mr. GOLDSMITH. Mr. Mirabal, at this time I would like to read to you a
quotation from Comer
"Lee
Oswald came to the Cuban embassy in
"He
was asked to explain, but he wouldn't.
"He
wouldn't go into details.
"The
second time he said he wanted to 'free
"Then he said something like: 'Someone ought to shoot that President
Kennedy.'
"Then
Oswald said--and this was exactly how it was reported to me--- 'Maybe I'll try
to do it.'
Mr.
Mirabal, do you recall Mr. Oswald making the remarks that are allegedly
attributed to him?
Senor MIRABAL. I
feel that what has just been read is totally absurd, it is incredible. In
addition, it is completely false, it is a lie, and it is impossible to imagine
that that has been stated.
Mr. GOLDSMITH. Thank you very much, Mr. Mirabal. I have no further
questions at this time.
Chairman STOKES. Does any member seek recognition?
Mr. DODD. Mr. Chairman.
Chairman STOKES. The gentleman from
Mr. DODD. Mr. Mirabal, let me just follow up the one line of questioning
I had for Mr. Azcue, and that is with regard to how the photo on the visa
application got there.
Can you enlighten us at all as to how that photograph got on the
application, what either the normal operating procedures were or if there were
any unique operating procedures in this case which would explain how that
photograph ended up on that visa application?
Senor MIRABAL. The entire matter of the processing of the paper work
relating to the application was entrusted to the secretary. I did not
participate in any manner. She was most efficient, and we trusted her in this
task.
Mr. DODD. In other words, you never saw the visa application when it was
in the consulate in
Senor MIRABAL. Yes, I did. In fact, there is a footnote with a series of
remarks or a remark or observation that I included or I made.
Mr. DODD. Do you recall that photograph as the photograph of the man that
you saw, granted not all that clearly, during the 30 minutes or so, the total
period of time that he was in your office back in September of 1963?
Senor MIRABAL. I know that this was the photograph that was affixed to
the request of the application, but at no point did I verify whether this
photograph was in fact that of the person who submitted the application, because
this was not a matter that I took care of. It was the secretary who was
responsible for this, and when she brought these documents to me, I assumed that
everything was in order.
Mr. DODD. Fine. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Page 176 176
Chairman STOKES. The gentleman from
Mr. SAWYER. Yes, I just have one question.
You stated that the statement attributed to President Castro as to the
statements made in the consulate by Lee Harvey Oswald were not correct and were
a lie or something to that effect.
At that time, I understood you could not speak English and did not
understand English; is that correct?
Senor MIRABAL. Yes, it is true. I did not speak English at that time.
However, my colleague, Senor Azcue, and the secretary would, without any doubt,
have informed me if he had stated anything of such a nature. I have complete
trust in my colleague, Azcue, and in the secretary, and obviously because of the
unusual and extremely alarming nature of any observations or statements of that
kind, I feel sure that they would have advised me had they heard them.
Mr. SAWYER. I just wanted the record to be clear that you are repeating
what the other two told you rather than stating an observation as to what he
said yourself. You are nodding your head yes.
Senor MIRABAL. Yes; I don't understand English. Even if I heard it in
English, I wouldn't have understood it--yes, it was my colleague, Azcue, and the
secretary who took care of the application submitted by Lee Harvey Oswald. It
was also them who provided me with all of the information that enabled me to add
the observation contained in that footnote to the effect that he was requesting
at the same time a visa to go to the
In fact, I noticed that he presented a card or credentials as belonging
to the Communist Party of the
I must say that I also have been a Communist for a number of years and
that generally we do not use credentials or a card to identify ourselves as
members of the party. Rather, we are identified to ourselves as Communists by
our own behavior and by our own ideas. I was surprised by his unusual interest
in using identification as a Communist.
I would think it would be interesting to know how he obtained the card.
It did have his name, and it did coincide with the same name that appeared in
the other document. And, as I indicated, it was my colleague, Azcue, who brought
all these documents and all this information to my desk for my report. It is
then that I talked with the Soviet consul, and when I mentioned this to him, he
told me that Oswald had in fact requested a visa for the Soviet Union but that
he had been told that it would take about 4 months to obtain a response, and
that is the reason that I included that information in the footnote that was to
be sent to Havana.
Mr. SAWYER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman STOKES. The time of the gentleman has expired.
Mr. Mirabal, was it standard operating procedure for an applicant to
affix his signature to the application in the presence of a consulate official?
Senor MIRABAL. That was normal. And it was always applied in that manner. Page 177 177
Chairman STOKES. Were there ever any occasions when an application form
would be signed in blank?
Senor MIRABAL. During the 11 months that I was there, that was never
done.
Chairman STOKES. And under the procedure as you knew it, were applicants
ever permitted to take the application forms out of the consular office?
Senor MIRABAL. To my knowledge, no. The ministry did not allow that to be
done. I could not authorize it, and as far as I know, it was never done.
Chairman STOKES. Thank you, Mr. Mirabal. Is there anything further?
The gentleman from
Mr. FORD. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Could I get Mr. Mirabal to describe Mr. Oswald's demeanor, please?
Senor MIRABAL. What I recall, and this, of course, is not only an image
that time has eroded, but also I looked at him without concentrating great
attention on him. At that time his appearance was not a cause of concern, but
rather the events that were taking place at that time, the loud conversation, et
cetera.
As I recall him, he was a rather small man, medium height or somewhat
less, narrow shoulders. I believe he was wearing a coat, short hair. I do not
recall him having a moustache. He did have a serious expression on his face. He
appeared hard or tough, someone who is upset or unhappy.
That is the image that I retain of him.
Chairman STOKES. The time of the gentleman has expired. Is there anyone
else seeking recognition?
Mr. Mirabal, at the conclusion of a witness' testimony before our
committee, he is entitled under the rules of this committee and of the House to
address the committee for a period of 5 minutes in the event he desires to in
any way clarify his testimony or expand upon it or explain it. I would at this
time extend to you 5 minutes for that purpose if you so desire.
Senor MIRABAL. Thank you. I would like to state to the members of the
committee that in connection with this entire process of the two visits that he
made to the consulate, my impression from the very first moment was that it was
in fact a provocation. He insisted on the urgency of his need for a visa. He
indicated that he was being persecuted. He indicated that he could not stay long
in
On the first day he was not given the visa because he did not fulfill the
necessary requirements, requirements that are asked of all individuals who are
visa applicants.
On the second time he came to file the application, and yet he insisted
that he needed to have it processed rapidly with great urgency. It was because
of these demands of his that the argument with Mr. Azcue and with the secretary
followed, and in fact during the argument he accused us all of not being true
revolutionaries, of not being sensitive to the fact that he was being
persecuted.
I must say that from the very beginning I considered this a provocation,
and I assured that in the manner in which we handled the case we followed the
directives of the Foreign Ministry in the Page 178 178 sense that all individuals
have to follow certain procedures in order to obtain a visa.
I would also like to say personally that as far as I am concerned, it is
a source of great satisfaction to be present here before the committee because
in the first place I consider this a very important investigation in itself and
also because we are very interested in its successful outcome.
I am individually--and my government wants to insure--that things will be
perfectly cleared up as a result. We feel that there have been efforts at making
propaganda, at conducting campaigns, and
From the reports that have been read here, apparently even I had been
linked to this event, and I can assure that neither
Chairman STOKES. Thank you very much, Mr. Mirabal.
We also want to thank you for having volunteered to be here today and to
testify before this committee, and we are deeply appreciative for your
appearance.
Does counsel have any statement to make?
Mr. STANDARD. Just this, Mr. Chairman. In anticipation of your
incorporating in this record the 4 hour approximate transcript of the interview
with President Castro, I ask that you incorporate into the record and make it a
part of it a series of articles which are referred to but not with specificity
by date or name.
First, a series of three articles by the French journalist, Jean Daniel,
one which appeared in L'Express in French and two articles which appeared in the
magazine, The New Republic.
Second, in the course of the interview several references are made to
Ambassador William Atwood. Those statements describe his role in contacting the
Cuban Government at the behest of President Kennedy. And I ask that those be
included as well.
Chairman STOKES. Without objection, counsel's request is hereby granted.
JFK exhibit F-685 may be entered into therecord at this point.
[The information follows:] Page 179 179 JFK EXHIBIT F-685 Page 180 180 JFK EXHIBIT F-685 cont. Page 181 181 JFK EXHIBIT F-685 cont. Page 182 182 JFK EXHIBIT F-685 cont. Page 183 183 JFK EXHIBIT F-685 cont. Page 184 184 JFK EXHIBIT F-685 cont. Page 185 185 JFK EXHIBIT F-685 cont. Page 186 186 JFK EXHIBIT F-685 cont. Page 187 187 JFK EXHIBIT F-685 cont. Page 188
188 JFK EXHIBIT F-685 cont. Page 189 189 JFK EXHIBIT F-685 cont. Page 190 190 JFK EXHIBIT F-685 cont. Page 191 191 JFK EXHIBIT F-685 cont. Page 192 192 JFK EXHIBIT F-685 cont. Page 193 193
Mr.
STANDARD. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman STOKES. Because of the lateness of the hour, it will be the plan
of the committee to make the presentation tomorrow morning of the interview with
President Fidel Castro in
This committee made two trips to
I want to acknowledge the presence here today at the witness table of one
of the gentlemen who was extremely helpful and cooperative to this committee in
terms of both of those trips, Senor Ricardo Escartin, who is the Consul and the
First Secretary of the Cuban Interest Section. It was necessary for Mr. Escartin
and other members of the Cuban Interest Section to meet with me on many
occasions and also with Professor Blakey and members of this staff. We spent a
great deal of time and received a great deal of cooperation from him on every
occasion.
Also, in
I also want to acknowledge the presence here at the witness table today
of another gentleman who was extremely cooperative with us, and that was Senor
Felipe Villa, Captain of the Ministry of the Interior, and during the course of
both of our trips he extended a great deal of cooperation and help and
assistance to this committee.
I would like also to mention two very talented and able Cuban translators
who were extremely helpful to us, Ms. Juanita Vera Nellie and Ruiz de Sarade.
Others who gave cooperation and hospitality to this committee were Dr.
Mondo Torres Santrail, the Minister of Justice; Oscar Fernandez Mel, the mayor
of
In addition, we want to express our deep appreciation to President Fidel
Castro. On the first trip we made to
During that period of time, the President made it very clear that it was
the purpose of the Cuban Government to make it very clear that their government
had nothing to do whatsoever with this very tragic occurrence in this country.
It was the intent of their government to do everything possible to cooperate and
see that the Cuban Government did everything in its power to clear up whatever
it could around a tragedy of this type.
So we are indeed grateful for the kind of cooperation that this
congressional committee has received, and we want to thank each of you gentlemen
for the assistance you have given us in this very important matter. Page 194 194
If there is nothing further at this time, I might also say that we are
once again indebted to the U.S. Marshall Service for the security arrangements
here around the distinguished witnesses who have appeared here today.
We also would like to thank the interpreter from the State Department,
Mr. Hervas, for a very efficient job he has done here today.
At this time the chair will request that everyone remain seated until our
witnesses have departed from the hearing room. Thereafter, we will adjourn these
hearings until 9 a.m. tomorrow morning. Thank you, gentlemen. You are excused.
[Whereupon, at 4:22 p.m., the committee recessed, to reconvene at 9 a.m.,
Tuesday, September 19, 1978.] |