KLEIN’S-WALDMAN Volume VII
TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM J. WALDMAN
The testimony of William J. Waldman was taken on May 20, 1964, at 4540 West Madison Street, Chicago, Ill., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
William J. Waldman, called as a witness herein, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:
Mr. BELIN. Would you please state your full name?
Mr. WALDMAN. William J. Waldman.
Mr. BELIN. And where do you live, Mr. Waldman?
Mr. WALDMAN. 335 Central Avenue, Wilmette, Ill.
Mr. BELIN. Is that a suburb of Chicago?
Mr. WALDMAN. It's a suburb of Chicago.
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Mr. BELIN. And what is your occupation?
Mr. WALDMAN. Vice president of Klein's Sporting Goods, Inc.
Mr. BELIN. How long have you been with Klein's?
Mr. WALDMAN. Approximately 12 years.
Mr. BELIN. And in your capacity as vice president, what are your general areas of work?
Mr. WALDMAN. Supervising office, warehouse, and retail operations, participating in the merchandising and advertising.
Mr. BELIN. What kinds of products does Klein's sell?
Mr. WALDMAN. Sporting goods in the majority, with some few specialty items which appeal to the male consumer.
Mr. BELIN. Would these include goods such as fishing items or hunting items?
Mr. WALDMAN. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. What is the fact as to whether or not included in the products handled by Klein's are rifles?
Mr. WALDMAN. Would you restate the question?
Mr. BELIN. Does Klein's Sporting Goods, Inc., handle rifles in their line of sporting goods?
Mr. WALDMAN. They do.
Mr. BELIN. For the record, we would like to have a little bit more of your overall background. Were you originally born in Chicago?
Mr. WALDMAN. No; I was born in Sedalia, Mo., November 16, 1912. Education: I don't know just what you're after.
Mr. BELIN. Well, you went through high school?
Mr. WALDMAN. I completed high school, attended Carnegie Institute of Technology, New York University. I don't know the nature of how far you want this developed.
Mr. BELIN. Well, you had some college work then?
Mr. WALDMAN. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. And after you got out of college, what did you do?
Mr. WALDMAN. I got out of college and I was employed by Sears and Roebuck, Spiegel's, Inc., and various other employment, served in the U.S. Army, Air Corps branch.
Mr. BELIN. This is during World War II?
Mr. WALDMAN. During World War II. Following which I was employed for a brief period in a family business, and subsequently by Klein's Sporting Goods.
Mr. BELIN. Mr. Waldman, I hand you what is being marked as Waldman Deposition Exhibit I and ask you to state if you know what this is.
Mr. WALDMAN. I do.
Mr. BELIN. Could you please tell us what that statement constitutes?
Mr. WALDMAN. This constitutes a purchase order of Klein's directed to Crescent Firearms Co. for Italian Carcano rifles prepared on January 2, 19--, oh, wait a minute; hold that a moment, January 24, 1963, calling for 200 units at a cost of $8.50.
Mr. BELIN. Now----
Mr. WALDMAN. I haven't finished.
Mr. BELIN. Let me just ask you this preliminary question: This is a photostatic copy of a document, is it not?
Mr. WALDMAN. It is.
Mr. BELIN. And is the original copy, or was the original copy prepared by someone under your direction or supervision?
Mr. WALDMAN. The original was prepared under a system which I originated and this particular order was not prepared at my direction. It would be--the merchandise was ordered in a routine basis at a time in which it was needed, and----
Mr. BELIN. Do you know who the person is that filled out this order?
Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; his initials are so indicated as "M.W."
Mr. BELIN. Would that be the name at the lower lefthand corner of Exhibit 1?
Mr. WALDMAN. It is.
Mr. BELIN. And that is who?
Mr. WALDMAN. Mitchell W. Westra.
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Mr. BELIN. At that time was he an employee of your company?
Mr. WALDMAN. He was.
Mr. BELIN. Was he under your jurisdiction and supervision?
Mr. WALDMAN. He was not under my direct supervision, no. He was under the supervision of Sam Kasper.
Mr. BELIN. And where is Sam Kasper now?
Mr. WALDMAN. He may or may not be here.
Mr. BELIN. I don't mean this afternoon. Is he with the company?
Mr. WALDMAN. He is the vice president of our company.
Mr. BELIN. He is the other vice president of the company?
Mr. WALDMAN. Correct.
Mr. BELIN. All right. Now, you started to go into the detail of what Deposition Exhibit I constituted. I just wonder if you will pick up where you left off here.
Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; on the same form we show a record of the receipt of the rifles in question, specifically this extreme right-hand column which is filled in, indicating that on February 22, delivery was made to us by Lifschultz Trucking Co. I might explain the difference in the two dates here.
Mr. BELIN. Go ahead.
Mr. WALDMAN. The February 21 date is the date in which the merchandise came to our premises whereas the date of February 22, is the date in which they were officially received by our receiving department.
Mr. BELIN. Your receiving department checks each order to see that the physical contents match the stated shipment on the invoice; is that correct?
Mr. WALDMAN. They don't necessarily see that they match because they frequently do not match, but they determine actually how much was received by us.
Mr. BELIN. Now, I notice on Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. I a date well, I might read everything under the column of description; it says Italian Mannlicher-Carcano, Model 91TS, bolt action 6-shot rifle; and then cal.--that's for caliber--6.5, and then there is an "X" and 52 mm Italian-select, clean, and test-fired, changed to Beretta Terni M19, then a slash line 38 EFF, and then the date of 4/16/62. Explain that date and that description.
Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; this general style of rifle was made by a number of different manufacturers over a period of time and there were minor modifications made by---developed by each of the manufacturers.
Mr. BELIN. Would this be similar to a number of manufacturers making the Springfield rifle in this country?
Mr. WALDMAN. As for example, the different manufacturers making the Springfield rifle. Basically, the weapons were of the same general design, but as I say, there were details that were different.
We originally had ordered one style of Carcano rifle, one that was known as the Model 91TS. As time went on, we changed to another model known as the Model 91/38EFF, this on April 13, 1962.
Mr. BELIN. Now, I also note on Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 1, under the item number--some letters here or numbers----
Mr. WALDMAN. C20-T749.
Mr. BELIN. What does that signify?
Mr. WALDMAN. This is an identification number assigned by us for internal operating purposes.
Mr. BELIN. Would this be something akin to a catalog number?
Mr. WALDMAN. Yes.
Off the record now. Can I speak without being----
Mr. BELIN. Yes.
(Whereupon, discussion was had off the record.)
Mr. BELIN. On the record.
Now, Mr. Waldman, you just requested to go off the record and told me that this is, the number that you read is not necessarily the only number that is assigned to one of these model rifles. Do you ever have any other numbers assigned to them?
Mr. WALDMAN. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. What would be the occasion for assigning a different number?
Mr. WALDMAN. When the rifle is offered and sold together with a scope and
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mount, we assign a different catalog number which describes the rifle, the scope and the mount.
Mr. BELIN. Did you ever sell any of these particular rifles with scopes and mounts?
Mr. WALDMAN. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Were these scopes and mounts purchased from the same source as the rifle itself?
Mr. WALDMAN. No.
Mr. BELIN. Mr. Waldman, on Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 1, does the date April 13, 1962, have anything to do with the time with which you received orders from customers of Klein's for any of these rifles?
Mr. WALDMAN. That date has no reference to our activity with consumers as such. It only indicates in our buying of these rifles we changed from one model to another, both models being very similar.
Mr. BELIN. Both being the Mannlicher-Carcano 6.5 caliber rifle?
Mr. WALDMAN. Correct.
Mr. BELIN. I'm going to hand you what has been marked as Waldman Deposition Exhibit 2 and ask you to state if you know what that is.
Mr. WALDMAN. I do.
Mr. BELIN. What is it?
Mr. WALDMAN. This is a delivery receipt from the Lifschultz Fast Freight covering 10 cases of guns delivered to Klein's on February 21, 1963, from Crescent Firearms.
Mr. BELIN. I note that there is some handwriting on Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 2 that says, "Klein's Sporting Goods, Inc., J. A. Mueller, 2--21-63." Would that be one of your employees at that time?
Mr. WALDMAN. He was. Mr. Mueller was in charge of our receiving department at that time.
Mr. BELIN. And do you know how many guns or rifles would have been packed in each carton or case?
Mr. WALDMAN. Referring to the various delivery receipts, copies of which we have, these are packing slips, incidentally, not receipts; these were packing receipts included in each case. It was indicated there were 10 rifles in each case.
Mr. BELIN. I'm going to hand you what has been marked as Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 3 and ask you to state if you know what this is.
Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; these are memos prepared by Crescent Firearms showing serial numbers of rifles that were shipped to us and each one of these represents those rifles that were contained in a case.
Mr. BELIN. Now, you earlier mentioned that these were packed with the case.
Mr. WALDMAN. Well, I would like to correct that. This particular company does not include these with the cases, but sends these memos separately with their invoice.
Mr. BELIN. Now, again, Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 3 is a photostatic copy. Do you have the actual copies that came to you in front of you at this time?
Mr. WALDMAN. I do.
Mr. BELIN. And is Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 3 an accurate photostat of these other copies?
Mr. WALDMAN. It is.
Mr. BELIN. I notice that there are numbers on each of these papers with 10 serial numbers each. I see here No. 3672, 3504 on the first photostat of Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 3. Do you see that?
Mr. WALDMAN. I do.
Mr. BELIN. I'm going to ask you to search through these 10 photostats and see if you find any invoice number that has on it a serial number, C-2766.
Mr. WALDMAN. Crescent Firearms delivery memo No. 3620 covering carton or case No. 3376 does have a--indicate a rifle bearing serial No. 2766.
Mr. BELIN. Well, is it 2766 or is there a prefix to it?
Mr. WALDMAN. There is a prefix, C-2766.
Mr. BELIN. And you see that as also a part of Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 3; I believe you are reading from the actual document in your possession
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which Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 3 is a photostat of; is that correct?
Mr. WALDMAN. That's correct.
Mr. BELIN. When a shipment of rifles is received, what is your procedure with regard to record keeping on the serial numbers of the rifles?
Mr. WALDMAN. We assign to each rifle a control number which is a number used by us to record the history of the gun while it is in our possession and until it is sold, thus each rifle will be tagged with both this control number and with the serial number of the rifle which is stamped on the--imprinted on the gun by the manufacturer.
Mr. BELIN. Do you have the same--does the same manufacturer give different serial numbers for each weapon that the manufacturer makes?
Mr. WALDMAN. The gun manufacturers imprint a different number on each gun. It's stamped into the frame of the gun and serves as a unique identification for each gun.
Mr. BELIN. Well, I hand you what has been marked as Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 4 and ask you to state if you know what this is.
Mr. WALDMAN. This is the record created by us showing the control number we have assigned to the gun together with the serial number that is imprinted in the frame of the gun.
Mr. BELIN. Now, this is a photostat, I believe, of records you have in front of you on your desk right now?
Mr. WALDMAN. That's correct.
Mr. BELIN. Do you find anywhere on Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 4 the serial number C--2766?
Mr. WALDMAN. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. And what is your control number for that?
Mr. WALDMAN. Our control number for that is VC-836.
Mr. BELIN. Now, I'm going to hand you what has been marked as Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 5 and ask you to state if you know what this is.
Mr. WALDMAN. This is an invoice rendered us by Crescent Firearms on their date February 7, 1963, for one hundred each 6.5 Italian rifles.
Mr. BELIN. Is there, anything on that invoice that shows how the rifles were shipped to you?
Mr. WALDMAN. It's indicated as having been shipped by the North Penn Transfer-Lifschultz and that there were 10 cases or cartons.
Mr. BELIN. Does it show whether or not this invoice was paid?
Mr. WALDMAN. It shows that payment was made on March 4, 1963.
Mr. BELIN. Mr. Waldman, were you ever contacted by any law enforcement agency about the disposition of this Mannlicher-Carcano rifle that had the serial number C-2766 on it?
Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; on the night of November 22, 1963, the FBI contacted our company in an effort to determine whether the gun had been in our possession and, if so, what disposition we had made of it.
Mr. BELIN. Do you know how the FBI happened to contact you or your company?
Mr. WALDMAN. The FBI had a record of a gun of this type and with this serial number having been shipped to us by Crescent Firearms.
Mr. BELIN. Do you mean that Crescent Firearms gave the FBI this information?
Mr. WALDMAN. Well, I--I must assume that's the case. I don't know it for a fact.
Mr. BELIN. All right. What did you and your company do when you were contacted by the FBI?
Mr. WALDMAN. We met with the FBI in our offices.
Mr. BELIN. Was this on Friday evening, November 22?
Mr. WALDMAN. On Friday evening, November 22.
Mr. BELIN. Did the FBI indicate at what time, what period that they felt you might have received this rifle originally?
Mr. WALDMAN. We were able to determine from our purchase records the date in which the rifle had been received, and they also had a record of when it had
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been shipped, so we knew the approximate date of receipt by us, and from that we made---let's see, we examined our microfilm records which show orders from mail order customers and related papers, and from this determined to whom the gun had been shipped by us.
Mr. BELIN. Are these microfilm records part of your customary recording of transactions of your company?
Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; they are.
Mr. BELIN. I'm handing you what has been marked as an FBI Exhibit D-77 and ask you if you know what this is.
Mr. WALDMAN. This is a microfilm record that---of mail order transactions for a given period of time. It was turned over by us to the FBI.
Mr. BELIN. Do you know when it was turned over to the FBI?
Mr. WALDMAN. It was turned over to them on November 23, 1963.
Mr. BELIN. Now, you are reading from the carton containing that microfilm. Do you know whose initials are on there?
Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; the initials on here are mine and they were put on the date on which this was turned over to the FBI concerned with the investigation.
Mr. BELIN. You have on your premises a machine for looking at the microfilm prints?
Mr. WALDMAN. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. And you can make copies of the microfilm prints?
Mr. WALDMAN. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. I wonder if we can adjourn the deposition upstairs to take a look at these records in the microfilm and get copies of the appropriate records that you found on the evening of November 22.
Mr. WALDMAN. Yes.
(Whereupon, the following proceedings were had at the microfilm machine.)
Mr. BELIN. Mr. Waldman, you have just put the microfilm which we call D-77 into your viewer which is marked a Microfilm Reader-Printer, and you have identified this as No. 270502, according to your records. Is this just a record number of yours on this particular shipment?
Mr. WALDMAN. That's a number which we assign for identification purposes.
Mr. BELIN. And on the microfilm record, would you please state who it shows this particular rifle was shipped
Mr. WALDMAN. Shipped to a Mr. A.--last name H-i-d-e-l-l, Post Office Box 2915, Dallas, Tex.
Mr. BELIN. And does it show arts' serial number or control number?
Mr. WALDMAN. It shows shipment of a rifle bearing our control number VC-836 and serial number C-2766.
Mr. BELIN. Is there a price shown for that?
Mr. WALDMAN. Price is $19.95, plus $1.50 postage and handling, or a total of $21.45.
Mr. BELIN. Now, I see another number off to the left. What is this number?
Mr. WALDMAN. The number that you referred to, C20-T750 is a catalog number.
Mr. BELIN. And after that, there appears some words of identification or description. Can you state what that is?
Mr. WALDMAN. The number designates an item which we sell, namely, an Italian carbine, 6.5 caliber rifle with the 4X scope.
Mr. BELIN. Is there a date of shipment which appears on this microfilm record?
Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; the date of shipment was March 20, 1963.
Mr. BELIN. Does it show by what means it was shipped?
Mr. WALDMAN. It was shipped by parcel post as indicated by this circle around the letters "PP."
Mr. BELIN. Does it show if any amount was enclosed with the order itself?
Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; the amount that was enclosed with the order was $21.45, as designated on the right-hand side of this order blank here.
Mr. BELIN. Opposite the words "total amount enclosed"?
Mr. WALDMAN. Yes.
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Mr. BELIN. Is there anything which indicates in what form you received the money?
Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; below the amount is shown the letters "MO" designating money order.
Mr. BELIN. Now, I see the extreme top of this microfilm, the date, March 13, 1963; to what does that refer?
Mr. WALDMAN. This is an imprint made by our cash register indicating that the remittance received from the customer was passed through our register on that date.
Mr. BELIN. And to the right of that, I see $21.45. Is that correct?
Mr. WALDMAN. That's correct.
Mr. BELIN. Is there any other record that you have in connection with the shipment of this rifle other than the particular microfilm negative frame that we are looking at right now?
Mr. WALDMAN. We have a--this microfilm record of a coupon clipped from a portion of one of our advertisements, which indicates by writing of the customer on the coupon that he ordered our catalog No. C20-T750; and he has shown the price of the item, $19.95, and gives as his name A. Hidell, and his address as Post Office Box 2915, in Dallas, Tex.
Mr. BELIN. Anything else on that negative microfilm frame?
Mr. WALDMAN. The coupon overlays the envelope in which the order was mailed and this shows in the upper left-hand corner .the return address of A. Hidell, Post Office Box 2915, in Dallas, Tex.
There is a postmark of Dallas, Tex., and a postdate of March 12, 1963, indicating that the order was mailed by airmail.
Mr. BELIN. Can you see the actual cancelled stamp in the upper right-hand corner?
Mr. WALDMAN. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. And the stamp itself says "United States Airmail"?
Mr. WALDMAN. That's correct.
Mr. BELIN. And underneath that, someone has written "airmail"; is that correct?
Mr. WALDMAN. That's true.
Mr. BELIN. And someone has written it addressed to you; is that correct?
Mr. WALDMAN. That's right.
Mr. BELIN. And is it possible on this machine to make prints of these negatives?
(Whereupon, it was attempted to make copies of said documents.)
Mr. BELIN. I think the record should show that all of this testimony has been taken upstairs with the court reporter present in front of the actual microfilm machine itself; is that correct?
Mr. WALDMAN. That's correct.
Mr. BELIN. Now, let us adjourn to your office and continue the taking of this testimony, please.
(Whereupon, the following proceedings were had at the office where the deposition originally commenced)
Mr. BELIN. Mr. Waldman, I'm going to mark what has FBI Exhibit D-77 on it as Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 6, being the container with your initials and the microfilm record itself, which you placed on the microfilm reader and about which you have just testified upstairs.
Now, I'm going to hand you what has been marked as Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7 and ask you to state if you know what this is.
Mr. WALDMAN. This is a cops made from our microfilm reader-printer of Dallas, Tex. I want to clarify that this is not the order, itself, received from Mr. Hidell, but it's a form created by us internally from an order received from Mr. Hidell on a small coupon taken from an advertisement of ours in a magazine.
Mr. BELIN. This Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7 is a print from the micro- film negative which we just viewed upstair; is that correct?
Mr. WALDMAN. That's correct.
Mr. BELIN. And Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 8 is also a print from the
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microfilm record we viewed upstairs showing the actual coupon and the envelope in which the coupon was enclosed; is that correct?
Mr. WALDMAN. That's correct.
Mr. BELIN. And do you have any general advertising program whereby you advertise in gun magazines?
Mr. WALDMAN. We do.
Mr. BELIN. Can you just give us one or more of the magazines in which this coupon might have been taken?
Mr. WALDMAN. Well, this coupon was specifically taken from American Rifleman Magazine, issue of February 1963. It's identified by the department number which is shown as--now, if I can read this--shown as Department 358 on the coupon.
Mr. BELIN. And that number also appears in the address on the envelope to you, is that correct, or to your company?
Mr. WALDMAN. That's correct.
Mr. BELIN. Now, I believe that you said the total amount was $19.95, plus $1.50 for shipping charges, or $21.45; is that correct?
Mr. WALDMAN. The $1.50 is for both shipping charges and handling.
Mr. BELIN. I hand you what has been marked as Commission Exhibit No. 788, which appears to be a U.S. postal money order payable to the order of Klein's Sporting Goods, and marked that it's from a purchaser named A. Hidell, and as the purchaser's street address is Post Office Box No. 2915, and the purchaser's City, Dallas, Tex.; March 12, 1963: and underneath the amount of $21.45, the number 2,202,130,462. And on the reverse side there appears to be an endorsement of a bank.
I wonder if you would read that endorsement, if you would, and examine it, please.
Mr. WALDMAN. This is a stamped endorsement reading "Pay to the order of the First National Bank of Chicago," followed by our account No. 50 space 91144, and that, in turn, followed by "Klein's Sporting Goods, Inc."
Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether or not that is your company's endorsement on that money order?
Mr. WALDMAN. It's identical to our endorsement.
Mr. BELIN. And I hand you what has been marked as Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 9 and ask you if you can state what this is.
Mr. WALDMAN. This is our endorsement stamp which reads the same as that shown on the money order in question.
Mr. BELIN. You have just now stamped Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 9 with your endorsement stamp?
Mr. WALDMAN. Correct.
Mr. BELIN. Do you have any way of knowing when exactly this money order was deposited by your company?
Mr. WALDMAN. I cannot specifically say when this money order was deposited by our company; however, as previously stated, a money order for $21.45 passed through our cash register on March 13, 1963.
Mr. BELIN. You're reading from Waldman---
Mr. WALDMAN. From a Mr. A. Hidell of Post Office Box No. 2915, from Dallas, Tex.
Mr. BELIN. And you are now reading from Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7?
Mr. WALDMAN. As indicated on Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7. Now, we cannot specifically say when this money order was deposited, but on our deposit of March 13, 1963, we show an item of $21.45, as indicated on the Xerox copy of our deposit slip marked, or identified by--as Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 10.
Mr. BELIN. And I have just marked as a document what you are reading from, which appears to be a deposit with the First National Bank of Chicago by your company; is that correct?
Mr. WALDMAN. That's correct.
Mr. BELIN. And on that deposit, one of the items is $21.45, out of a total deposit that day of $13,827.98; is that correct?
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Mr. WALDMAN. That's correct.
Mr. BELIN. Now, when we examined. Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 1, had a control number of which the last four numbers were T749, and when you shipped the rifle, you had the control number with the last four numbers as T750; otherwise the control number is the same. Could you tell us what accounts for the difference?
Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; these numbers that you referred to are not control numbers, as previously stated. These are known as catalog numbers. The number C20-T749 describes a rifle only, whereas the catalog No. C20-T750 describes the Italian carbine rifle with a four-power scope, which is sold as a package unit.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what the rifle would have cost without the scope?
Mr. WALDMAN. As I recall, it was either $12.78 or $12.95.
Mr. BELIN. Would the advertisement run in the Rifleman's Magazine of February 1963, have given the purchaser the option to buy with or without the if you remember?
Mr. WALDMAN. Without specific reference to the ad, I would say that it Most usually we did.
Mr. BELIN. And the purchaser would signify his preference in what manner?
Mr. WALDMAN. The customer designates whether he wants the rifle only or whether he wants the rifle with the scope by his selection of catalog numbers.
Mr. BELIN. When this rifle came to your company, was the scope already mounted on it when you got it from Crescent?
Mr. WALDMAN. No.
Mr. BELIN. Who put the scope on the rifle?
Mr. WALDMAN. The scope was mounted on the rifle in our gun ,shop, most probably by a gunsmith named William Sharp.
Mr. BELIN. Would Mr. Sharp drill whatever holes were necessary for the mounting and do the actual mounting then himself?
Mr. WALDMAN. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Would Mr. Sharp or anyone else in your company in any way sight in the sight, whether it would be boresighting or actual firing with the sight?
Mr. WALDMAN. No; it's very unlikely in an inexpensive rifle of this sort that he would do anything other than roughly aline the scope with the rifle.
Mr. BELIN. Do you have any records which show where you purchased the scope?
Mr. WALDMAN. It's reasonably certain the scope was purchased from Martin B. Retting, Inc., 1129 Washington Boulevard, Culver City, Calif.
Mr. BELIN. Would it have any identification on the scope itself, if you know?
Mr. WALDMAN. It's most probable it carried the name "Ordnance Optics."
Mr. BELIN. Now, Mr. Waldman, perhaps we'd better further identify the microfilm which show your control numbers. We marked the microfilm as Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 6. Do you have any control numbers on this at all which indicate which microfilm this is?
Mr. WALDMAN. This is our film No. 38, which covers our transactions Nos. 269688 through 270596.
Mr. BELIN. And I believe that you already testified to the control number or transaction number that appears on Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7 as being number what?
Mr. WALDMAN. 270502.
Mr. BELIN. Mr. Waldman, referring to Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 3, which are the serial numbers of the 100 rifles which were made in this shipment from Crescent Firearms to you, and Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 5, which is the invoice from Crescent Firearms which has stamped on it that it was paid by your company on March 4, is there any way to verify that this payment pertained to rifles which are shown on Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 3?
Mr. WALDMAN. The forms submitted by Crescent Firearms showing serial numbers of rifles included in the shipment covered by their invoice No. 3178 indicate that the rifle carrying serial No. C-2766 was included in that shipment.
Mr. BELIN. Now, those forms----
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Mr. WALDMAN. Those forms are your exhibit captioned Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 3. Now, our payment voucher No. 28966 of March 1, 1963, which is your Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 5 shows in the lower portion, second column from the left, the number 3178, which ties in with Crescent Firearms invoice No. 3178.
Mr. BELIN. And you have before you a carbon copy of a check that was written by your company to Crescent Firearms in the amount of $850, and attached to it, the attachment that shows it's for invoice No. 3178?
Mr. WALDMAN. That's correct.
Mr. BELIN. Mr. Waldman, do your records show whether or not the rifle was shipped with the scope mounted on it or is there any way that you know whether or not it was?
Mr. WALDMAN. Our catalog No. C20-T750, which was the number indicated on the coupon prepared by A. Hidell, designates a rifle with scope attached. And we would have so shipped it unless the customer specifically specified that he did not wish to have it attached. There is nothing in our records to indicate that there was any request made by the customer, and therefore we would have every reason to believe that it was shipped as a rifle with scope-mounted.
Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether or not the rifle would have been broken down in shipment or whether or not it would have been shipped fully assembled?
Mr. WALDMAN. It was customary for us to ship all of these rifles and scopes fully assembled, and I would have no reason to believe that this particular one would have been shipped otherwise.
Mr. BELIN. And do you know in what kind of a container it would have been shipped?
Mr. WALDMAN. It was customary for us to ship these rifles with scopes attached in a corrugated cardboard carton made for us by the Rudd Container Corporation of Chicago.
Mr. BELIN. About how long would that carton be in size, if you know?
Mr. WALDMAN. Approximately 60 inches.
Mr. BELIN. Did you ever furnish any samples of this carton or any wrapping paper or tape to the FBI?
Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; we did furnish a sample of the carton together with the type of sealing tape that was generally used and such craft paper that may have been used for inner cushioning packing.
Mr. BELIN. Mr. Waldman, when we testified upstairs in front of the microfilm machine, was the microfilm itself more clear or less clear than the photostats or prints that have been made from it?
Mr. WALDMAN. More clear.
Mr. BELIN. So it would be possible to read items on the microfilm itself that might not come out clear on the printed copies?
Mr. WALDMAN. That's correct.
Mr. BELIN. Mr. Waldman, the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy appreciates all the cooperation which your company, and in particular you, have given to this situation. And we know that it's not a happy situation to you, and that the gun could have been purchased anywhere. As it happens, this particular gun was purchased with your company, and we want to thank you very much for your cooperation.
Mr. WALDMAN. Thank you.
Mr. BELIN. Do you want to see the deposition before you sign it? Mr. Waldman, you have the right to read the deposition and sign it before anything further is done with it, or you can waive the signing of it, whatever you like.
Mr. WALDMAN. It would be well for me to read this because of the possibility of a transposition of numbers or other errors in the recording.
Mr. BELIN. All right. (To reporter.) Perhaps you can keep the original copy here, if you would, and give it to Mr. Waldman and mail the other copies directly to us in Washington, and then could you make whatever corrections there are and send it directly to us in Washington, and I'll give you my name if you would mail it to my attention.
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