FROM THE NEWSGROUPS
Thanks for that David, and for supplying the supporting documents and
records that indicate that what I say in #1 of my list, that there is
no witness, document, records or evidence that Oswald obtained the
rifle from the PO box 2915. He just shows up with it in the photo, and
everything that goes from Point A - Klines, to B. the PO Box 2915 to
C. Oswald, is congecture on the part of anyone.
More Unanswered Questions
If Oswald Did It
Things Oswald Must Have Done If He Was The Assassin
For Which There Is No Evidence, Record or Witness.
1) Obtain the rifle/pistol from the Post Office, where they were
mailed to someone not entitled to receive mail at the box – A.J.
Hidell, and someone must have handed him the package(s) over the
counter and created some receipt. No witness, no receipt, no evidence
Oswald did this.
But according to DVP he must have because he is seen in the backyard
photo with the guns, therefore he must have got them.
That is despite the fact that he was at work at Jaggers/Chiles/Stoval
on the day and the time he reportedly mailed and had postmarked the
money order for the rifle - March 12, and they day it was picked up -
March 25, both Tuesday workdays.
Unlike his job at the TSBD, where they didn't have a Time Card to
punch in, J/C/S was pretty serious about keeping track of what they're
employees were doing and for whom.
Also please note that on the morning that Oswald was supposed to have
mailed the money order for the rifle, he worked on a job for Sam
Bloom, the same guy who helped John Connally and the Secret Service
choose the Trade Mart over the Women's building and thus have the
motorcade drive by the TSBD. And you know, one of the six guys who
worked on the floor laying crew had previously worked as a Post Office
clerk. Maybe he's the one who handed the rifle over the counter to
Oswald/Hidell when he was supposed to working at J/C/S.?
March 25. When did Oswald pick up the rifle and pistol again?
Usually it is Conspiracy Theorists who accuse witnesses like Harry
Holmes, who also delayed Oswald leaving the DPD long enough for Ruby
to get into position to kill him. Holmes knew the PO regulation was to
maintain such records for two years, and he keeps saying "They" did
this and "They" did that. Who's "They." And what happened to the
person who handed the rifle over the counter to Oswald/Hidell? They
don't have Post Officer records who tell them who was working at that
PO that day?
Here, instead of J/C/S detailed records in Oswald's handwriting show
he was working that day, we are advised by the author of the
Chronology not to trust the Time Sheets of J/C/S becuase Oswald "lied"
on them. But they didn't ask Stovall if he allowed his employees to
leave the premesis and run around Dallas mailing money orders and
picking up weapons at the Post Office.
Chronology of Oswald in 1962-3 IN THE UNITED STATES
12 March 1963 (Tuesday)
Using a coupon clipped from the February issue of American Rifleman
magazine, Lee went to the main post office and ordered a high-powered
Italian carbine, called a Mannlicher-Carcano, from Klein's Sporting
Goods Company, a mail order house in Chicago. He sent the coupon air
mail with a postal money order for $21.78 for the rifle, $7.17 for the
scope, to be moounted by a gunsmith emplyed by Klein's and $1.50 for
postage and handling). The rifle was delivere to a "A. HIDELL, Post
Office Box 2915, Dallas, Texas.".
(FN: Oswald's time sheet on 12 March is evidence that he proably lied
sometimes about his hours. On the day he ordered the rifle, he signed
n from 8:00 a.m. to 5:15 p.m., (Exhibit no. 1855, Vol. 23, p. 605).
The U.S. Postal Inspector, Dallas, Harry D. Holmes, later testified
that OSWALD'S order for the rifle was issued "early on the morning of
March 12". This appears to have been the case, for the order was
imprinted on Klein's cash register March 13. Since the post office
window opoened only at 8:00 a.m., OSWALD probably lied when he signed
in then. Thus the time sheets have to be used with caution. M&L, .
But to Bill Kelly, instead of Oswald lying on his time sheets, I would
have asked Stovall if Oswald could have left the premesis and if he
wrote "Sam Bloom" on the account sheet, could have had run copy or
graphics over to the Bloom office for approval during the half hour-
hour time that he said he worked on their project?
Checking with Bugliosi, who wrote 2,000 pages on how Oswald killed JFK
all by himself, you would think he would have devoted a few pages to
how Oswald obtained the rifle, but without any witnesses, documents,
records or any evidence he did so, the Bug simply writes:
”By coincidence, both weapons, pistol and carbine, were shipped to him
on the same day a little over a week later, on March 20. 1096 Marina
noticed the rifle several days later in Lee’s ‘office.’ He later
draped a coat over it for concealment.” p. 1097
Thanks to Robert and Greg for the J/C/S/ time sheet links and Rex at
Mary Ferrell for posting them.
more proof from Gil Jesus's website>>
On Jun 14, 11:54 am, tara <taralac...@mailinator.com>
> When in college, I was employed by the Sears-Roebuck catalog
> department. Often, when consumers ordered through the catalog and the
> merchandise was out of stock, I was ordered to substitute a similar
> product typically of more value.
> The fact that Kleins Sporting Goods may or may not have shipped the
> exact rifle ordered by Mr. Oswald demonstrates absolutely nothing more
> than shipping an article of merchandise to make a profit.
Or that it was even SENT AT ALL.
Creating The Illusion That Oswald Purchased A
Rifle From Klein's
Six days after announcing that Oswald paid $12.78 for the rifle, *the
FBI changed their story* and said that he paid $19.95 for the rifle
with the scope already attached (plus $1.50 for postage).
NOTE: **The author does not know why the FBI changed their story.
may have been because Klein's bank records did not show a deposit
matched that amount.
In order to create the illusion that Oswald paid $21.45 for the mail
order rifle from Klein's, the FBI had to "locate" a corresponding
deposit in Klein's account at the First National Bank of Chicago.
deposit had to be untraceable, which meant that it was made in cash
with a US postal money order. *The deposit could not be in the form
of a personal check, or money order issued by a private company such
as a bank , Cooks, or American Express.*
According to FBI reports, Bureau agents began tracking the $21.45
money order at 9:00 am on the morning of November 23, *even though
they announced a few hours later that Oswald paid $12.78 for the
rifle*. They ALLEGEDLY spoke with William Waldman, of Klein's
Sporting Goods, then ALLEGEDLY spoke with Lester Gohr, the Assistant
Cashier of the Federal Reserve Bank in Chicago. *These agents may
have interviewed these witnesses, but the information contained in
their reports suggests that they did not.*
At 9:00 am FBI agents Gale Johnson, James Hanlon, and Phillip
ALLEGEDLY interviewd Klein's vice-president William Waldman, who
ALLEDGEDLY told the agents that Klein's records showed that a money
order in the amount of $21.45 was deposited to the Klein's account at
the First National Bank of Chicago on March 15, 1963. *It is
that Waldman gave this information to these agents, because he had
seen an order from "A. Hidell" on the Klein's microfilm. He did not
know **the price paid for the rifle or the method of payment**. In
addition, Waldman had already given Klein's microfilm to agents
Toedt, and Mahan earlier that morning.*
After ALLEDGELY interviewing William Waldman agents Johnson, Hanlon,
and Wanerus ALLEDGELY interviewed Robert Wilmouth, Vice-President of
the First National Bank of Chicago *(on Sunday morning)*. According
to their FBI report, Wilmouth said that Klein's made a deposit in the
amount of $13,827.98 on Friday, March 15, 1963. This deposit
contained hundreds of entries on 5 pages of adding machine tape, with
*two entries* in the amount of $21.45 (the FBI report was wrong;
was only *one entry for $21.45* in he $13,827 deposit). Wilmouth
ALLEDGELY told the agents that one of the entries represented an
American Express money order and the second deposit item represented
postal money order, both in the amount of $21.45. *But how would
Wilmouth know if these deposits were made with money orders when
looking at numbers on adding machine tapes? (see Vol 21, p. 706).
Wilmouth, ALLEDGELY told the agents that both deposits were made on
March 15, were processed by his bank on March 16 (Saturday), and were
received by the Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago on March 18, 1963.
*But the date on the deposit slip reads "2/13/63-a month before the
rifle was ordered (p. 706, Volume 21).* *And how could Wilmouth
possibly know the date that a money order was deposited at the
Reserve Bank without looking at the cancelled money order, which he
did not have??* Wilmouth ALLEDEDLY told the agents, "Postal money
orders are sent to the Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago, which in turn
sends them to a central processing center located in KANSAS CITY,
NOTE: **If neither the First National Bank nor the Federal Reserve
Board had copies of a $21.45 money order (No. 2,202,130,462), then
Wilmouth could not possibly have known the date the money order was
received by the Federal Reserve.**
After ALLEDGELY interviewing Robert Wilmouth agents Johnson, Hanlon,
and Wanerus ALLEDGELY interviewed Lester Gohr, the Assistant Cashier
of the Federal Reserve Bank in Chicago-*on Saturday morning*.
According to the FBI report, Gohr said that records of postal money
orders were only kept for 6 months and that *he had no records prior
to May 29, 1963.*
From the information ALLEDGELY obtained from these bankers, we
that if they were interviewd on Saturday morning it is highly
they furnished the information that appears in the FBI reports.
*Also, if they had furnished information about a $21.45 money order
FBI agents on Saturday morning, then the Bureau would never have
announced that Oswald paid $12.78 for the mail order rifle a few
later!* It is far more likely that these FBI reports were fabricated
in order to create the illusion that a $21.45 postal money order was
received by Klein's, deposited to their bank account and then sent to
the Federal Reserve.
We have already learned the $21.45 money order published in the
Volumes was **never deposited into a bank or financial institution.**
*This means the mony order was not deposited to Klein's account at
First National Bank of Chicago, nor deposited with the Federal
Bank, nor then returned to the Federal Records Center in Alexandria,
VA. It also means that the information contained in the FBI reports
of Johnson, Hanlon, and Wanerus was fabricated in order to create the
illusion that Oswald purchased a $21.45 money order which was
routinely processed through the federal banking system.
The "Official Story" of how the $21.45 money order was found.
At 1:45 pm on Saturday, November 23 Secret Service agent Edward Z.
Tucker arrived at Klein's Sporting Goods and began interviewing
William Waldman. At first Waldman was reluctant to speak with Agent
Tucker, *because he had been told by the FBI agents not to discuss
investigation with anyone.* He alledgely told Tucker the price of
Mannlicher-Carcano rifle was $21.45, including postage, and payment
may have been made with a money order. Tucker spoke with Secret
Service agent Griffith, who then called Chicago Postal Inspector
Knight and requested help in locating a postal money order in the
amount of $21.45.
One of the FBI agents who reviewed the Klein's microfilm, John Toedt,
ALLEDGELY contracted the Post Office in Chicago and also asked for
their assistance in locating a postal money order. Toedt was told to
contract the division headquarters in KANSAS CITY.
After receiving a call from the SS, Chicago Postal Inspector Martin
McGee ALLEDGELY telephoned Dallas Postal Inspector Cox, who in turn
contacted Harry Holmes, who stated he thought *he (Holmes) would be
able to find a record of a $21.45 money order in Dallas.*
NOTE: **Most of the background information relating to the $21.45
money order that is found in the reports of the US Post Office
originated with Harry Holmes and, therefore, should be considered
Holmes told the WC, "I passed the information to the men (Dallas
postal employees) who were looking for this money order 'STUB' to
which would designate, which would show the number of the money
and that is the onley way you could find one...within 10 minutes they
called back and said they had a money order in that amount issued on,
I don't know that I show, but it was that money order in an amount
issued at the main post office, which is the same place as this post
office box was at the time, box 2915, and the money order had been
issued **early on the morning of March 12th**, 1963.
NOTE: ** US post offices always kept the end "stub" of all money
orders sold to customers for their records. ***But neither Holmes
anyone else produced the "stub" or any postal records to support his
claim that Dallas postal employees in Dallas located the "stub" for
postal money order No. 2,202,130,462.***
**Holmes told the WC the money order was issued ***early on the
morning of March 12th.***, 1963. Yet there is nothing on a postal
mony order that shows the time of day it was sold. The Commission
should have asked Holmes how he knew the money order was issued
"**early on the morning of March 12, 1963.***"
**The only indication the money order was purchased on the morning of
March 12 was the postmark show on the microfilm copy of the envelop
ALLEDGELY mailed to Klein's which read, "10:30 am." The Kleins'
microfilm was never shown to Holmes and therefore Holmes could not
have known that a postal money order was issued ***early on the
morning of March 12, 1963***. The only way Holmes could have known
about the postmark would be if he had previously seen, or handled,
envelope, or if had been told to say that.**
At 3:30 pm (November 23) Harry Holmes contacted Inspector Lloyd H.
Stephens in Fort Worth and told him that postal money order No.
2,202,130,462, in the amount of $21.45, had been used to pay for the
rifle. Stephens then contacted Inspector Duggan in Washington, DC
game him the same information.
Postal inspectors at the Federal Postal Money Order in Kansas City
began searching for money order No. 2, 202,130,462, while a
General Staff meeting was held in Washington DC. A summary of the
meeting prepared by the SS stated, "The initial request for the
identification and location of the subject US Postal Money order had
come from Postal Inspector Lloyd Stephens, Fort Worth, Texas.....as a
result of a conference between Mr. Donald Duggan, Deputy Chief,
Inspection Service, Washington DC, and Postal Inspection Service at
Fort Worth, Texas, **the original US Postal Money Order would be
furnished to this service (Secret Service).**
At 7:30 pm (CST) Chicago Postal Inspector Glenn Knight advised
Service Agent Griffith that Postal Inspectors were attempting to
locate the postal money order in Kansas City. **Postal inspectors in
Kansas City had already spent 4 hours looking for postal money order
No. 2,202,130,462, without success.**
The Federal Postal Money Order Center in Kansas City was the same
facility at which 5 other postal money orders were located that had
been purchased by Oswald and used to repay his $435.71 loan from the
Department of State. FBI SA Donald E. Stangel obtained the following
information from the Department of State and the USPS.
He shows a chart with categories Ser # or M.O.; Amount; Issue Date;
Location; and Rec'd by State Dept
The first 5 postal money orders (beginning with series 1,156,417,562)
purchaed by Oswald in Fort Worth and Dallas were returned to the
Federal Postal Money Order Center in Kansas City. The last 3 postal
money ordrs (series 2,202,000,060) were returned to the Federal
Records Center in Alexander, VA. Money order No. 2,202,130.462,
ALLEDGELY purchased by Oswald from the GPO in Dallas, was ALLEDGELY
located at the Federal Records Center in Alexandria, VA on the
of November 23, 1963.
According to the serial numbers on these money orders, the GPO in
Dallas sold approxiamtely 1200 money orders per week (3888 from
November 14, 1962-December 6, 1962; 3475 from Jan. 5, 1963-Jan. 25,
1963). Using 1200 money orders per week as a guide, the serial
of the money order ALLEDGELY purchased by Oswald on Mar. 12, 1963,
2,202,130,462 (***118,527 numbers higher***). This serial number
indicates that this money order came from a stack of money orders
should not have been sold by the GPO in Dallas until late 1964 or
early 1965, if sold in numerical order.
NOTE: **The Commission failed to ask the Postal Service when money
orders beginning with 2,202,130 were sent to the Dallas GPO. They
also failed to ask Holmes for the name of the postal employee who
allededly found the "stub" for the $21.45 money order.** While
Inspectors continued to search for the $21.45 money order in Kansas
City, Dallas Postal Inspector/FBI Informatn Harry Holmes advised the
money ordr could be found in Washington DC. Holmes told the
Commission, "This number (2,202,130,462) was transmitted to the Chief
Inspector in Washington, who immediately got the money order center
Washington to begin a search, which they use IBM equipment to kick
this money order and sent it oer, ***so they said***, by special
conveyance to the Secret Service, chief of the Secret Service at
Washington now, and it turned out, ***so they said***, to be the
correct money order. **Holmes was the first and only person in
to know the number of the money order, and the first to suggest the
money order could be located in Washington, DC.**
NOTE: **The WC could not understand why it took nearly ***16
to locate the money order. Harry Holmes said the delay was caused
because the FBI provided him with incorrect information. Holmes said
the Bureau advised him the amount of the money order was $21.95
instead of $21.45, which caused him to look for a different money
order, ***but not a single person corroborated Holmes' story.***
In Washington, DC, the Deputy Chief of the Postal Inspection Service,
Donald D. Duggan, insturcted Postal Finance Officer ***J. Harold
Marks*** to indicate a search for the money order in Washington, DC,
at 6:30 PM (CST).
At 7:55 PM (CST), Chicago Secret Service Agent Griffith was told that
postal money order No. 2,202,130,462 had been located in Washington,
DC (8:55 EST). Griffith then telephoned agent Mroz, in Kansas City,
and advised him the $21.45 postal money order had been recovered in
NOTE: **Apparently the Dallas FBI office was not aware the money
order had been located. At 9:30 PM (CST) the Dallas office sent an
airtel to the Director and SAC's in Chicago and New York. The
said, "Advised inst. money order culd not be located today, but would
be located *Nov. twenty four next."*
Postal money order No. 2,202,190,462 was ALLEDGELY found at the
Federal Records Center in Alexandria, VA by Robert Jackson, *an
employee of the National Archives.*
NOTE: **This $21.45 money order was never deposited into a financial
institution and therefore could not have been routed through the
banking system and returned to the Federal Records Center in
Alexandria, VA. This money order was probably obtained from the GPO
in Dallas in the early afternoon of November 23, hand-delivered to
Washington, DC, and "planted" at the Federal Records Center in the
**It remains unknown whether Robert Jackson "found" the money order
the Federal Records Center or it was given to him. There were no
witnesses present and neither Jackson, Marks, Parker, nor anyone from
the National Archives and Records Service were interviewed by the
Secret Service, or Warren Commission.**
Robert Jackson hand-delivered the $21.45 money order to the home of
**J. Harold Marks** in Washington, DC, who had been told to locate
money order by Deputy Chief Donald D. Duggan. A summary report
prepared by Secret Service Agent Donald E. Burke on November 26, 1963
provided the details of how the money order was given to the Secret
"At 10:10 PM (EST-9:10 CST) November 23 1963 SA Parker obtained the
original US Postal Money Order from Mr. Harold Marks at Mr. Marks's
home. At that time Jackson was identified as Robert H. Jackson, 2121
Lee Wood Drive, Alexandria, Virginia, telephone, SO 5-7501, and
employee of the National Archives and Records Service....He informed
SA Parker that he obtained subject original postal money order and
surrendered it to Mr. Marks. Both Jackson and Marks initialed and
dated the original money order, after which it was surrendered to SA
Parker, who in turn initialed and dated the money order.
On the evening of November 23, 1963 the $21.45 postal money order was
initialed and dated by Robert H. Jackson (RHJ), J. Harold Marks
and John E. Parker (JEP). A summary report by the SS explained how
copies of the money order were sent to the Dallas office:
"SA Phillips (Secret Service, Dallas) advised, after consultation
Inspector Kelley of this service, that two photstats be made of
subject postal money order and that these photostates be placed on
Flight #107, Braniff Airlines, departing Washington, DC, at (9:00 am
on November 24, 1963, and arriving at Dallas, Texas at 11:50 A.M.
SA Parker made five photostats of subject US Postal Money Order and
placed them in an envelope. SA Parker surrendered the envelop to
Captain Davis of Flight #107, Braniff Airlines, departing National
Airport, Washington, DC, at 9 AM on November 24, 1963, for delivery
Special Agent in Charge, US Secret Service at Dallas.
The secret service provided the Dallas Police with a copy of the
order, which was published among their exhibits in the Warren
CE 2003 (DPD file). The Secret Service summary report explained what
happened to the ***original*** $21.45 money order:
"SA (Max D.) Phillips also requested that a chain of custody be
maintained, and that ***original postal money order be retained by
Washington Field Office safe.***
SA Parker then surrendered the original US Postal Money Order to SAIC
Gaiglein, which he had previously placed in a sealed white envelope
after which SA Parker placed the ***original US Postal Money Order
sealed in this envelope in the WFO (Washington Field Office) safe.***
On the morning of November 24, 1963, Deputy Chief Paterni (Secret
Service, Washington), when informed by SA John H. Grimes, Jr., of
Secret Service that the Postal Inspection Service, through Postal
Inspector Joseph A. Verant advised that the original US Postal Money
Order ws being sought by the FBI, authorized SA Grimes to surrender
the original Postal Money Order to the Federal Bureau of
Investigation. Immediately thereafter, while SA Grimes was
to make telephone contact with SAIC Glenn Gillies, Washington Field
Office, Federal Bureau of Investigation, SA Leslie B. Chisholm, FBI,
telephonicall contacted the reporting agent concerning this original
US Postal Money Order. SA Chisholm was advised that the postal money
order was available and he stated he or an agent of the FBI would
up this money order at the Washington Field Ofice of this Secret
SA Grimes of this service removed the sealed envelope containing the
original US Postal Money ORder from the WFO safe; removed the
money order from this envelope; initialed and dated the money order;
made four photostats of it, and surrendered it to SA Chisholm of the
FBI who executed a receipt."
On November 24, SA Chisholm delivered the original money order to
James T. Freeman at the FBI laboratory in Washington, DC. The
"This paid order was located at the Records Center in Alexandria,
Virginia on the early evening of November 23. It was turned over to
Secret Service agent in Washington, DC who flew it to Dallas."
NOTE: **The information that a secret service agent hand carried the
original money order to Dallas came from Harry Holmes. As we have
seen, this did not happen and was yet another of Holmes'
fabrications. ***Copies** of the money order were sent to Dallas,
the original uncashed and undepostited money order was turned over to
the FBI laborator.**
What is the origin of the unused $21.45 money order?
To be considered later.
Taken from Harvey and Lee pgs 461-67