PAINE,
MICHAEL Volume IX
TESTIMONY
OF MICHAEL R. PAINE
The testimony of Michael R. Paine was taken at 2:30 p.m. on March 17,
1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Messrs. Wesley J.
Liebeler and Norman Redlich, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
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Mr. LIEBELER. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth,
and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. PAINE. I do.
Mr. LIEBELER. We have asked you to come here so we can take your
deposition to find out some of the background information that you have about
Lee Harvey Oswald as a result of your knowing him throughout part of 1963, up to
the time of the assassination.
We particularly want to ask you this afternoon about your knowledge of
the possible possession by Lee Harvey Oswald of the weapon that was allegedly
used to assassinate the President, or of any other weapon at the time while he
had some of his effects stored as we understand it in your garage in Texas.
I also want to inquire of you this afternoon concerning your knowledge of
Lee Oswald's financial affairs, whether you have lent him any money or whether
he ever, he or his wife ever, obtained any money through you or your wife, and
we will also ask you about other matters relating to the general subject of the
assassination and the subsequent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.
I want to go first, Mr. Paine, to the period September of 1963, but
before I do that, will you state your name for the record.
Mr. PAINE. Michael Paine.
Mr. LIEBELER. What is your address?
Mr. PAINE. 2515 West Fifth,
Mr. LIEBELER. By whom are you employed?
Mr. PAINE.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where are they located?
Mr. PAINE.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever make the acquaintance of Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us briefly the circumstances under which
that occurred?
Mr. PAINE. My wife invited Lee and his wife over to supper one evening.
Mr. LIEBELER. Will you tell us approximately when that was?
Mr. PAINE. I think it was in April.
Mr. LIEBELER. Of 1963?
Mr. PAINE. Yes; I have depended upon my wife for all the dates.
She has kept a calendar.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss with your wife the, after the assassination
the, approximate time when you first met the Oswalds?
Mr. PAINE. Yes, yes, we did. Or at least she had to .report that to other
people and I was listening in but I have forgotten the dates.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did your wife meet the Oswalds at the same time?
Mr. PAINE. No; she met them at a party that was held at a friend's house
and we were invited to, both of us were invited to, go meet this couple who were
represented as he having been an American who had defected to Russia, and came
back with a Russian wife. I think I was sick or something and for some reason I
couldn't go so I didn't meet him at that time.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us approximately when that was?
Mr. PAINE. It would be much more sensible to get all the exact dates from
my wife but I think that was in February.
Mr. LIEBELER. 1963?
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, after you first met Oswald, and we will go into the
conversation that you had with him when you met him and after that more in
detail to him before the Commission, when was the next time that you met him?
Mr. PAINE. I don't think I met him again until he joined
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us briefly the circumstances surrounding the
second meeting with Oswald?
Mr. PAINE. Well, Ruth had invited Marina to come and have her baby early
in the summer when she knew that she was pregnant, to come have her baby, if she
wished, at our house, where she would have the help of another woman who could
speak Russian. Ruth stopped by from
her visit on the east coast,
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stopped
on her way back to Texas, stopped in New Orleans to see them, and found that Lee
was out of work again, and picked up Marina at that time and brought her back to
Dallas which was the end of September, and Marina then and her child stayed
there and had another child, and stayed there until the assassination.
And about a week later
Mr. LIEBELER. Were you there when he came out?
Mr. PAINE. I don't remember. I would come normally, I was not living at
the house at the time, and I would normally appear on, regularly on, Fridays,
and generally some other day in the week, I think it was a Wednesday, Tuesday or
Wednesday, for supper.
So I would have seen him if it was a Friday but I don't happen to recall
the particular occasion. I think perhaps I wasn't there because I recall Ruth
telling me how glad
Mr. LIEBELER. You and your wife were separated at that time?
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us approximately when you were first
separated?
Mr. PAINE. Oh, we have been living apart about a year, I suppose .
Mr. LIEBELER. At that time, you mean in October?
Mr. PAINE. It had been a year; yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. So it would have been in October of 1962?
Mr. PAINE. Yes; I guess it was.
Mr. LIEBELER. Were you living in
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. How often would you visit your wife during the period that
you were separated particularly during the period of September-October?
Mr. PAINE. Well, as I say it was 2 nights a week, 2 evenings a week was a
regular thing, and I would frequently come around weekends.
The garage had been my shop, with my tools that I occasionally used and I
would stop by on weekends, on Sunday anyways, Friday for sure, Sunday
accidentally generally, I think, on a Tuesday or Wednesday.
Mr. LIEBELER. When you came to the house did you stay there overnight or
did you just come----
Mr. PAINE. No; I would just stay for supper in the evening.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you were residing entirely, spending your evenings in
your own apartment in
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall that your wife went on a trip to the eastern
part of the
Mr. PAINE. It was mostly the summer. She went about July and she spent a
couple of months, the end of July, I think.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know approximately when she got back to
Mr. PAINE. Well, I think she came by around September 24 is the date, I
don't remember whether that was the date she arrived in
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, after she did return to
Mr.
PAINE. Yes; I do remember she asked me to unpack or take some of the heavy
things out of the car. I think that was only dufflebags but whatever it was it
was so easy, I didn't really notice what it was to take out.
Mr. LIEBELER. That was shortly after she returned from her trip?
Mr. PAINE. That would suggest either the same day or the next day.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now----
Mr. PAINE. Go ahead.
Mr. LIEBELER. Go ahead.
Mr. PAINE. I was thinking it would be much better to get, if it is
important at all, to, she probably remembers these dates exactly and we could
judge that I would be there. It happened the 24th was a Friday.
(I.E.TUESDAY)
If that was the date she got
back, then I would know that I arrived the date they came back.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did you ever have occasion to go into the garage
toward the end of September after your wife had returned for any reason?
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Mr. PAINE. Yes. As I say that was, I still had a number of things there,
and the tools were there.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you used the tools from time to time?
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. During the time that you used the tools, did you ever see a
package wrapped in a blanket lying in the garage?
Mr. PAINE. Yes; that is one of the clearest things in my mind. I had had
to move that. The garage is rather crowded especially with their things in it.
It had degenerated from a shop into a storage place and in order to use the
tools at all I would have to move things out of the way, and one of the packages
was this blanket wrapped with a string and I had had to move it several times. I
knew it belonged to the Oswalds. I am polite so I don't look into a package or
even I wouldn't look into a letter if it were in an envelope which was unsealed.
But I picked up this package and the first time I picked it up I thought it was
a camping equipment and thought to myself they don't make camping equipment of
iron any more, and at another time I think I picked it up at least twice or
three times, and one time I had to put it on the floor, and there was a--I was a
little ashamed because I didn't know what I was putting on the floor and I was
going to get it covered with sawdust but I again supposed that it was camping
equipment that wouldn't be injured by it, being on the floor. I supposed it was
camping equipment because it was wrapped in this greenish rustic blanket and
that was the reason I thought it was a rustic thing.
I had also going a little further thought what kind of camping equipment
has something this way and one going off 45°, a short stub like that. Then
there was also a certain wideness at one end and then I thought of a folding
tool I had in the Army, a folding shovel and I was trying to think how a folding
shovel fit with the rest of this because that wasn't quite, the folding shovel
was too symmetrical. That was as far as my thinking went on the subject but at
one time or another those various thoughts would occur before I got to using the
tools myself.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever think there were tent poles in the package?
Mr. PAINE. Yes; I supposed they were tent poles, I first thought it was
tent poles and then I thought there are not enough poles here, enough to make a
tent. I didn't think very elaborately about it but just kind of in the back of
my mind before I got on to the next thing I visualized a pipe or possibly two,
and with something coming off, that must come off kind of abruptly a few inches
at 45° angle. I can draw you a picture of the thing as I had it. You know I
wasn't thinking of a rifle. Definitely that thought never occurred to me.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you draw us a picture for it and I hand you a yellow
pad and let me get you a pen. Would you draw a picture for us of what you
visualized to be in the package?
Mr. PAINE. Also this was--I visualized after I put the package down. I
would lift the package up, move it, put the package down and one time I was
trying to puzzle how you could make camping equipment out of something--this is
only one pipe in the package. That is the only thing. Then a little shovel which
I am speaking is an Army shovel which looks something like so, and it has a
folding handle on it.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you have drawn on this piece of paper two different
pictures, one of which you indicate as the shovel.
Mr. PAINE. I was trying to put these in the package to make something
that I thought was a pipe about 30 inches long. Of course; that actual package
as I visualized it--that is the outline, that is how it lay in the package.
Mr. LIEBELER. You have drawn a dotted line, outline around his first
picture that you drew which you indicated you thought, you conceived of as an
iron pipe of some sort.
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you mark this. I hand this to the reporter and ask
him to mark this as Exhibit 1.
(The drawing was marked "Michael Paine Exhibit No. 1".)
Mr. LIEBELER. When you moved this package around, did it appear to you
that there was more than one object inside of it or did it appear to be a solid
piece or just what was your feeling?
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Mr. PAINE. I didn't think. It remained in the package--nothing jelled.
I think I thought about it more than once because my thoughts didn't hold
together enough.
Mr LIEBELER. Did it rattle at all when you moved it?
Mr. PAINE. No; it didn't rattle.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now----
Mr. PAINE. I kind of rejected the shovel idea because that was not, that
was two symmetrical.
Mr. LIEBELER. What was too symmetrical?
Mr. PAINE. The shovel the shaft and the blade of the shovel are
symmetrical, the shaft is on the center line of the shovel and here this wider
area had to be offset somehow.
Mr. LIEBELER. You said you thought it was about 30 inches long?
Mr. PAINE. No; I am just telling you, I picked up a package which I first
thought camping equipment, heavy iron pipes, and then I tried, then later, maybe
when I had left. I tried to think, well, what kind of camping equipment has that
little stub on it that goes off at an angle or asymmetric like that, and the
flat end down there and I tried to put a shovel in there to fill out the bag,
and with the camping equipment, to the shape of the thing.
I never--I didn't put these in words, they were just kind of thoughts in
the back part of my mind. I wasn't particularly curious about it. I just had to
move this object and I think I have told you about the full extent of my
thinking.
Mr. LIEBELER. How long would you estimate the package to be?
Mr. PAINE. The package was about that long. That is 40 inches long.
Mr. LIEBELER. Let's get a ruler and have you indicate. Would you indicate
Mr. Paine, on the edge of the desk here approximately how long you think the
package was and then I will measure what you have indicated.
Mr. PAINE. I guess about that. That is including the blanket.
Mr. LIEBELER. The witness has indicated a
length of 37 1/2 inches.
Mr. PAINE. You had two twelves. All right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you say that was including the blanket, what do you
mean by that?
Mr. PAINE. Well, the blanket was wrapped around the end of it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was it wrapped tightly?
Mr. PAINE. Pretty snug.
Mr. LIEBELER. When you moved it did you have the impression that there
might have been any paper inside of it?
Mr. PAINE. No; I would have said no; I didn't have that impression.
Nothing crinkled, no sound.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you moved it several times?
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was there any indication by a crinkling or otherwise that
there might be paper wrapped inside the blanket?
Mr. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you said before that you had thought that they didn't
make camping equipment out of iron anymore. What do you mean by that?
Mr. PAINE. Well, I had had camping equipment, of course, camping
equipment we had was a tent with iron pipes.
Mr. LIEBELER. What prompted you to think of that thought in connection
with this particular package?
Mr. PAINE. I suppose it was the--I had a .22 when I was a kid.
Mr. LIEBELER. A .22 caliber rifle?
Mr. PAINE. Yes; I had two of them. I kept that in better condition, I
mean, this was a rustic looking blanket, it looked as though it had been kicked
around. It was dusty, and it seemed to me it was wrapped with a twine or
something tied up with a twine. So I
thought of, it looked to me like the kind of blanket I had used for a bed roll
on the ground.
I suppose that is the thought that started me thinking in the line of
camping equipment. And then I suppose I must have felt, I felt a pipe, at least,
and maybe some sense of there being more than one pipe but I drew that picture
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that
I drew, I didn't sense that there being another pipe I didn't put it in because
I never did place another pipe around it.
Mr. LIEBELER. You never placed another pipe----
Mr. PAINE. I had the idea there might have been more than one pipe here
or I didn't know where the other pipe might be.
Mr. LIEBELER. At the time you picked it up, at any time that you picked
it up, did you have the idea that there might be more than two pipes inside the
package.
Mr. PAINE. Well, I would never have mentioned camping equipment, you see,
without, you can't make anything without more than one pipe.
Mr. LIEBELER. Think of the configuration of the package or of the way it
acted when you moved it, was there any indication in that sense that there was
more than one pipe inside.
Mr. PAINE. No; I think it was a homogenous, that is to say it didn't move
one part with respect to another.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was it tied tightly?
Mr. PAINE. It was tied quite firmly. It seemed to me the blanket was
wrapped double or something that the blanket itself would have made two pipes
trying to hold still in the blanket.
Mr. LIEBELER. How wide was the package?
Mr. PAINE. Well, apparently, it was lopsided because I remember not being
able to fit the shovel in it, but if you are to draw that outline or something,
I think that would go around the blanket.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you want to draw something additional here?
Mr. PAINE. It was smaller at this end. It was smaller at this one end and
that was generally the end that I carried in my right hand.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you mark the area on the drawing that you are
indicating, mark it with an "A" on the drawing. And you indicate that
it was smaller at the end marked "A" than at the other end or it was
not as wide?
Mr. PAINE. I can't remember how it was wrapped at this end because I
could grab my hand around the paper whereas this end, I think was folded over.
Mr. LIEBELER. You say that the blanket, you think the blanket was folded
over at the other end opposite from "A"?
Mr. PAINE. Yes; I don't know, there were two separate different thoughts
at the time.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now you have drawn a solid line completely around the first
drawing that you made on No. 1?
Mr. PAINE. Yes; I don't think I made this one, my solid line should be
much longer. It should have gone out there. I will scratch it out.
Mr. LIEBELER. Okay. The witness is scratching out the first line at end
"B" and drawing in another line.
Mr. PAINE. This is the widest dimension here, and I was indicating,
between 7 and 8 inches.
Mr. LIEBELER. Mark that "C".
Mr. PAINE. All right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now the witness has stated that the dimension marked
"C" on the drawing was approximately 7 or 8 inches. Would you mark a
"B" at the end opposite from "A" on the drawing so we can
keep the record straight as to what we have been talking about?
Mr. PAINE. [Marking.]
Mr. LIEBELER. We have now gotten two dimensions roughly of the package,
the length and the height.
Mr. PAINE. My hand went around it pretty well, It didn't close around it
but it went around it to the grabbing of the fashion where the pipe went
actually through my fingers and thumb.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did your hand actually close around it?
Mr. PAINE. It did not close around it. At the other end I grabbed it when
I picked it up, grabbing it, I will draw my fingers here. This is the thumb.
Mr. LIEBELER The witness has sketched-----
Mr. PAINE. In that fashion there. That was, say, 2 inches thick with the
blanket.
Mr. LIEBELER. Witness has drawn at the end marked "'B" his hand
indicating
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how
he picked it up and said that at that end it was about 2 inches thick, including
the blanket.
When you grabbed it at that end could you tell whether the blanket was
wrapped tight up around the object that was inside or whether it was just a fold
of the blanket at that end?
Mr. PAINE. I thought it was, my impression was that it was all tightly
wrapped and that the blanket had strings around it--I can't recall exactly but
it was tied with strings, I don't remember where the strings were and I thought
the fold of in the blanket came up along here somewhere.
I thought it was wrapped, the
blanket was folded over.
Mr. LIEBELER. In other words, your testimony is that at end
"B"?
Mr. PAINE. But my memory there is so feeble, so uncertain. I remember
this measurement of the pipe because
I pictured that in my mind at the time so I was thinking about that.
I was trying to fit the shovel in and I remember saying that is too
asymmetric. My impression was I
would have said that there would have been a fold over it. I have read since
that
Mr. LIEBELER. In the testimony you have just given you have indicated
that the blanket was folded over the end of the object marked "B" on
our drawing.
Would you indicate approximately by a line which I will ask you to mark
"D" how far the blanket came up on the object itself, after it was
folded over, the "B" end, can you do that for us?
Mr. PAINE. This is totally unreliable as a memory. It was only based on
an impression that I thought it was
well wrapped, in other words, dirt wouldn't be sifting into the inside of the
package. I put it under the saw, right below where the saw sifts the sawdust out
so I was concerned not getting these things dirty. So I will draw a line here.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, in the drawing you have made for us you have indicated
this object inside the package, you have drawn an object and a package, and on
your drawing the object ends before the end of the package does, the steel pipe
that you have drawn.
What impression did you have of what was in the rest of the package?
Mr. PAINE. I must have drawn my outline incorrectly. The line of this
pipe here shown didn't--the package, I must draw another package then. The
package must have sloped.
Mr. LIEBELER. Well, do you remember how it was?
Mr. PAINE. No; I don't remember the shape of the package. It was a
blanket, I mean it was a--- reconstruct the blanket or something but this is not
a continuous pipe because it was loose, it was stuck through the outline of the
package, then I drew the package wrong then. I didn't think of it all at one
time, you know, I just had these individual separate thoughts of trying to fit
an object or objects that came to my mind into this package.
Mr. LIEBELER. Your testimony is then that instead of drawing a new
package you think the object you have drawn inside the package should have gone
right to the end of the blanket?
Mr. PAINE. Yes; that 30 inches of pipe would have come close to the edge
of the blanket.
Mr. LIEBELER. Let me show you a----
Mr. PAINE. But here, you see there may have been another pipe alongside
of it, I didn't particularly arrange it.
Mr. LIEBELER. I show you a blanket which has been previously marked as
Commission Exhibit 140, and ask you if that is the blanket that you saw in the
garage?
Mr. PAINE. Well, I think it looks cleaner than it was, than it struck me
then. And I may have said that it had more colors in it but that is the mood of
the colors there.
I think I would have--I can't absolutely identify this blanket.
But green and brown, it may have also had blue spots in it or something
like that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you say
that this is not the blanket that was in the
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garage?
Take your time and examine it as closely as you want to, do anything you
want to with it.
Mr. PAINE. I would guess that--it looks a little, in here it looks
cleaner than I remember but otherwise it looks--the light isn't very good in
there and I always moved it around in the dark, I mean in the night time. I had
an impression that it was, it was somewhat more mottling of the colors in it,
that is to say, I can't identify this absolutely.
It is a very good substitute for it, a good resemblance or good candidate
for, my memory of the blanket.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, there were lights in the garage, were there not?
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you would have them on when you were working in there?
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. You said at one point you stored the blanket under your
saw?
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. You had lights near your saw, didn't you?
Mr. PAINE. It is very dark there. There is a light on the saw but that
shines on the table.
Mr. LIEBELER. There is no light directly over the saw?
Mr. PAINE. No; there is one light in the garage out
in the middle of the room.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you say that at any time that you moved the blanket
around in the garage that you would have had enough light to determine the
colors of the blanket?
Mr. PAINE. The green and the brown, those colors were in that blanket. I
had thought there was, it was dirtier, and I would have put blue spots with it,
something like that to make it fully come up to the impression I had of the
blanket.
Mr. LIEBELER. And those blue spots would have been a part of the pattern
of the blanket?
Mr. PAINE. Yes; sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether the design of this blanket,
Commission Exhibit 148, is approximately the same as the design on the blanket
which you saw in your garage or was it different?
Mr. PAINE. I don't remember the design of the blanket I saw in the
garage. I think somewhat, I didn't, if I had been the least bit curious I could
have at least felt of this blanket but I was aware of personal privacy, so I
don't investigate something.
Now what comes to my hand from touching the thing unavoidably I am free
to think about, but I think I was aware of not looking through his belongings,
the moral dictate. I know I was aware of that, I remember. I remember that
feeling.
Mr. LIEBELER. What about the texture of this blanket, does it seem like
the blanket?
Mr. PAINE. Yes; that is a good----
Mr. LIEBELER. It is similar?
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. This blanket we have here is sewn around the edges with
brown thread, is it not?
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Around some of the edges at any rate?
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER Do you recall seeing anything like that on the blanket that
was in the garage?
Mr. PAINE. No; I don't know, but I didn't look at it that closely.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, a part of that exhibit is a piece of string. When I
unfolded the blanket, Commission Exhibit 140, a piece of string was found to be
present, and I would like to ask the reporter to mark it as the next exhibit on
this deposition.
(The string referred to was marked Michael Paine Exhibit No. 2 for
identification.)
Mr. LIEBELER. I ask you, Mr. Paine, whether that piece of string which
has
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been
marked as Exhibit 2 on this deposition is similar to or different from the
string that was used to tie this package up when you saw it in the garage, if
you remember?
Mr. PAINE. I don't remember exactly. I think this is a very good
candidate again. I remember thinking it was wrapped in a twine, by which I meant
it was not wrapped in a cotton, tight wound expensive cotton, string.
I didn't think it was wrapped, didn't have in mind the manila type or
sisal type. This is the right
strength. I can't actually remember whether it was or not.
Mr. LIEBELER. It appears to be similar?
Mr. PAINE. That is about as good as could come to my memory.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was there just one string wrapped on the blanket?
Mr. PAINE. No; I think it was wrapped at both ends.
Mr. LIEBELER. With two strings?
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Well now this blanket has a pin in one end. I call your
attention to that, the blanket which is Commission Exhibit 140.
Did you notice that pin?
Mr. PAINE. No; I don't think so.
Mr. LIEBELER. Present in the blanket at the time it was in your garage?
Mr. PAINE. No; I don't think I do.
Mr. LIEBELER. I am going to lay the blanket out here on the conference
table and I am going to produce Commission Exhibit 139 which is the rifle that
was found in the Texas School Book Depository Building on November 22, 1963, and
I will ask you if you can construct out of these materials that we have here
this rifle, and the blanket and the string something that resembles or
duplicates the package that you saw in your garage?
Mr. PAINE. It seemed to me this end up here was not as bulky as the
whole----
Mr. REDLICH. By "this end" what do you mean?
Mr. PAINE. "A", I have drawn as "A", was not as bulky
as if I had wrapped it and pulled the blanket over.
Mr. LIEBELER.
You are having difficulty in making it as small as when you remember it in the
garage?
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. We want you just to continue to work with it and take your
time because we want you to be able to satisfy yourself to the fullest extent
possible, on this question, one way or the other.
Mr. PAINE. It is getting fairly close but I don't know what he did with
this end. This way of wrapping it seems to combine the functions. I also had a
notion that it was somehow folded over but it seems too thick to do it that way.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you have wrapped the rifle in the blanket. I will ask
you if this appears to be, this wrapped package appears to be similar to the one
you saw in your garage?
Mr. PAINE. I should say quite big enough here.
Mr. LIEBELER. When you say this end, you are referring to the end marked
"B" on the drawing, which in
the package is the end, the butt end of the rifle, isn't that right?
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. You say that end is too thick.
Mr. PAINE. As I have it wrapped.
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; and you say in the center of the package in which we
have the rifle wrapped you say that is not thick enough. But by thick enough do
you mean the width or the actual thickness of the package?
Mr. PAINE. I thought of the package pretty much as all of the same
thickness, calling the width from type calling the rifle and the scope of the
rifle the width.
Mr. LIEBELER. The width?
Mr. PAINE. The width across the belt, the direction of the bolt as the
thickness. So I thought of it as a more or less constant thickness of the
package and not quite so--I would have to wrap it in some manner to move some of
this bulk up into here, but I don't want to do it so much that I can't grab that
feel of pipe.
That feels, it is quite a lot like it and there could almost have been
two pipes there.
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Mr. LIEBELER. When you say it is quite a lot like it you grasped the
"A" end rifle or the muzzle of the rifle, is that correct?
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Are we saying now that its thickness is not as you remember
the package in your garage or the same width?
Mr. PAINE. Well, most likely this end down here is perhaps, the butt end
of the rifle.
Mr. LIEBELER. The "B" end?
Mr. PAINE. As I have it wrapped is a little bit too full.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you think that appears to be thicker----
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Than the package that was in your garage?
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And as far as the middle is concerned, you say that is
what, not as thick nor not as wide?
Mr. PAINE. Yes; somehow it should be a little wider, or a little fuller.
Mr. LIEBELER. It was a package which wasn't quite so tapering?
Mr. PAINE. Quite so tapered.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is that approximately the length of the package that you
remember in your garage?
Mr. PAINE. Yes; I think that is good, I grabbed it in some way or
another, I don't know what he did with this end.
Mr. LIEBELER. Referring to the "A"?
Mr. PAINE. There was a string, there were two strings on it.
Mr. LIEBELER. When you estimated the length of the package before, would
you have estimated it with the flap of the blanket that is now on the
"A" end folded over or extended a little bit as it happens to be in
this particular package?
Mr. PAINE. I don't think it was--I think the package is still all right
if you fold it over, and I would not, the length I was estimating was the kind
of length that I would grab there.
Mr. LIEBELER. So you think that the length would be more appropriate if
you folded this flap over here at "A"?
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you measure the length of that package and tell us
what it is?
Mr. PAINE. That is 41 inches.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, after going through the process that we have gone
through here, of trying to wrap this rifle in this blanket, do you think that
the package that you saw in your garage could have been a package containing a
rifle similar to the one we have here?
Mr. PAINE. Yes; I think so. This has the right weight and solidness.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did you estimate, did you ever estimate, the weight of
that package?
Mr. PAINE. No; I don't think I did.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever tell the FBI approximately how much you
thought it weighed?
Mr. PAINE. Oh, I may have said 7 or 8 pounds. But that was all after the
fact. I mean I didn't do it at the time.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss with the FBI the question of whether
or not the object in the package that you saw, let's assume for the moment that
it was a rifle, did you ever discuss with the FBI whether the rifle could have
had a telescopic sight mounted on it or not?
Mr. PAINE. I don't remember whether I discussed that with the FBI. I
haven't thought much about it. I didn't feel in the area of the package where
the sight is. In my memory of the tubes, I did picture too more than one tube.
Mr. LIEBELER. You did picture more than one tube----
Mr. PAINE. I didn't picture it anywhere. I assumed there was going to be
there was more than one tube. I hadn't placed it in any picture therefore that
it was----
Mr. LIEBELER. When you say----
Mr. PAINE. I think I assumed that, I think, because this line along the
top of the package was not straight enough to be the tube I have drawn there. I
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should
say, in other words, either the bulk of the package as well as the out in the
middle or there could have been a sight there.
Mr.
LIEBELER. Did the FBI or any other investigatory agency of the Government ever
show you a picture of the rifle that was supposed to have been used to
assassinate the President?
Mr. PAINE. They asked me at first, the
first night of the assassination if I could locate,
identify the place where Lee was standing when he was holding this rifle and
some, the picture on the cover of Life.
Mr. LIEBELER. Were you able to?
Mr. PAINE. I identified the place by the fine clapboard structure of the
house.
Mr. LIEBELER. By the what?
Mr. PAINE. By the small clapboard structure, the house has an unusually
small clapboard.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did you identify the place as being?
Mr. PAINE. The Neely Street address. He didn't drive a car, so to have
them over for dinner I had to go over and pick them up.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever tell the FBI that at first you felt if the
object was a gun in the package it
did not have a scope on it, but after seeing pictures of the gun and noting the
small size of the scope on the weapon used to assassinate the President that the
object you lifted could have been a rifle with the
scope mounted on it?
Mr. PAINE. I don't remember saying that; no.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember being interviewed by FBI agents Odum and
Peggs on November 24, 1963?
Mr.
PAINE. Well, of course, I have seen Bob Odum frequently, Peggs is an unfamiliar
name. It doesn't mean he couldn't have been there. That night I mostly went into
the police station, spent much of it at the police station.
Mr. LIEBELER. On November 24?
Mr. PAINE. Is that a Sunday night or Monday?
Mr. LIEBELER. Sunday, the 24th would be a Sunday.
Mr. PAINE. I am too confused. Maybe it was on the next night that I spent
at the police station.
Mr. LIEBELER. Well, let's go back and tell us about as best as you can
recall how many times did the FBI interview you starting with the day of the
assassination, the 22d of November. Did the FBI interview you on that day?
Mr. PAINE. There was someone at the police station, first the police took
us to the station and asked us questions and we filled out an affidavit right in
there.
Mr. LIEBELER. That is the
Mr. PAINE. The
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember the name of that agent?
Mr.
PAINE. Now, I don't believe I met, I was introduced to, Odum prior to the 22d. I
do not remember that man, and it is possible that--I don't think it was Odum,
but I wouldn't recall that out and I do not remember the name of that man. I
don't know what he looks like.
Mr. LIEBELER. Were you interviewed by the FBI on Saturday, November 23?
Mr. PAINE. I am not going to be able to remember when I was interviewed
without being able to have something to hang it on. There were news reporters.
First the news reporters were more in evidence, and then the police came
out again, and both of them stick in my mind more because they are more
objectionable. I mean there is more----
Mr. LIEBELER. Would it refresh your recollection if I mentioned the name
of Richard E. Harrison as an FBI agent who interviewed you on November 22, 1963,
at the
Mr. PAINE. No. I don't remember the name.
Mr. LIEBELER. Reconstruct for us the events of Saturday, November 23 as
best you can. And perhaps I can help you if I ask you first, did you stay in
your apartment in
Mr. PAINE. No, I don't think so. No, we had a late supper there, Life
reporters , were there, and-----
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Mr. LIEBELER. At
Mr. PAINE. At
Mr. LIEBELER. And the Life reporters came on Saturday morning again?
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. The 23d. What happened, how long did they stay and what
happened after they left?
Mr. PAINE Well, they left quite early, I think, it might have been 9
o'clock, relatively speaking, 9 or 9:30, talking to Marina Oswald.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did you do after they left?
Mr. PAINE. I don't remember. I think I went over to the
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you go to your place of business at any time, to the
Mr. PAINE. Well, my apartment was close by it. I think somebody has asked
me this question before and I think at the time I said no, and I don't remember
now, that is my closest memory to that occasion.
Mr. LIEBELER. Your recollection is that you did not go to the helicopter
plant?
Mr. PAINE. My recollection now is now fuzzier than ever but I recall
previously I thought about it and I said, no.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you go to the police station in
Mr. PAINE. Yes. I recall the FBI came, not the FBI, the Dallas police
came and took me in their car. We went back via
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you come back to
Mr. PAINE. Yes, probably 8 or 9 at night.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you stay at
Mr. PAINE. I think I probably stayed Saturday evening and went back,
spent Sunday evening in
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember talking to your wife on the telephone on
Saturday, November 23?
Mr. PAINE. I may have called her from the police station or something
like that.
Mr. LIEBELER. I am going to unwrap the package with the rifle which was
wrapped in the blanket, and I want to ask you if you had ever seen this rifle,
Commission Exhibit 139, before?
Mr. PAINE. Not to my--the first time I saw a rifle, I didn't realize that
he had a rifle. I thought, I knew he liked rifles because he spoke fondly of
them in the Soviet Union although he regretted that he couldn't own a rifle, and
I supposed that he still didn't have one so I didn't see a rifle until the night
of the 22d when Marina was shown a rifle in an adjoining cubicle glass between
us.
Mr. LIEBELER. You observed through the glass a rifle being shown to
Marina Oswald?
Mr. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear any of the questions being asked her at that
time?
Mr. PAINE. No; I couldn't hear.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did your wife see this rifle being shown to Marina Oswald?
Mr. PAINE. She was in the room with her.
Mr. LIEBELER. She was in the room with Marina Oswald?
Mr. PAINE Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, after Marina Oswald was shown this rifle, did your
wife tell you anything about the questions that were asked of Marina Oswald at
that time?
Mr. PAINE. Yes; she said
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Mr. LIEBELER This is what----
Mr. PAINE. I will say it again. I think Ruth reported at that time or
this is a recollection I have of a report that Ruth made and I think it was at
that time, that
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Ruth tell you anything that Marina Oswald said about
the presence or absence of a telescopic sight on the rifle at that interview
with the
Mr. PAINE. I don't remember anything that she my have said about that.
Mr. LIBELER. But you are quite clear that your wife told you that
Mr. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, I want to draw your attention specifically to a sling
or a device that serves the purpose of sling on this rifle, which is Commission
Exhibit 139, and ask you if you have ever seen anything like that before?
Mr. PAINE. I am taking your question to mean did I see it on the rifle, a
sling on the rifle I saw that was shown to
Mr. LIEBELER. I also want you to consider whether you have ever seen a
device----
Mr. PAINE. No; I have never seen a sling built like that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever seen any device that looks like this at all
whether it was designed for a rifle or for any other purpose? Do you have any
idea what this might be?
Mr. PAINE. No; I don't recognize it. I have never seen it.
Mr. LIEBELER. You don't remember ever having seen anything like this
around your own house or garage in
Mr. PAINE No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, we have here the parts of a rifle which is similar to
the Commission Exhibit 139, and I will lay these on the blanket, and I will ask
the reporter to indicate on the record that the counterpart rifle has been
identified by FBI No. C-250. I want to ask you, Mr. Paine, to try to wrap this
in the package, the broken down rifle and see if that works out any better or
any worse than the attempt we made to wrap the complete rifle.
Mr. PAINE. I guess all that happened was I lifted up the thing in the
same fashion. I don't think that is going to help the problem. It makes the
package a little bit shorter but that other package--I wouldn't have got the
sense of pipe.
Mr. LIEBELER. The witness indicates that because of the stock and the
rifle barrel are separate when the rifle is broken down, it seems natural, does
it not, Mr. Paine, to place the barrel and action of the rifle directly over the
top of the stock when wrapping it this way?
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. If you do that, you would not have the sense of grasping
the muzzle of the rifle or of a pipe when you picked up the package?
Mr. PAINE. And this, putting the barrel below the stock, doesn't leave,
offset the package in the way that gave me the problem with the folding shovel
there. The symmetrical shovel if I wrapped that in some fashion Also it mustn't
rattle. He is going to have to tie it firmly with string not to have it as
monolithic or solid as it had been. The barrel, I must have just felt the
barrel, I felt a pipe, and the barrel had to be sticking out beyond the stock.
Mr. LIEBELER You think that because the barrel of the rifle had to be
sticking out behind the stock and because when the rifle is placed in the
package in two different pieces, it is difficult to tie it tightly enough to
keep it rattling and you would infer that the rifle was put together when it was
the package in your garage, assuming that there was a rifle in the package in
the garage? Did you ever tell the FBI that you were sure in the light of recent
events that you were sure it was a rifle in the package?
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Mr. PAINE. I told the FBI the description or the suggestion of a rifle as
the object brought together these loose pieces or loose concepts on the offset
bulk which was the butt end, and the pipe, the 30-inch pipe I drew in the
picture, so it made sense. The picture jelled when the rifle was suggested as an
object.
Mr. LIEBELER. And so you concluded that it was likely that there was, in
fact, a rifle in the package?
Mr. PAINE. Yes; I thought that was so.
Mr. LIEBELER. I show you Commission Exhibit 364, which is a replica of a
paper sack or package which was found in the School Book Depository, after the
assassination. I point out to you that Commission 364 is merely a replica of the
actual sack that was found. The actual sack that was found is Commission Exhibit
142, and it has now been discolored because it has been treated by the FBI for
fingerprints.
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. But there is a part of the package that has not been
treated, and I ask you if that part of 142 that has not been treated is similar
to Commission Exhibit 364 as far as color and texture are concerned. I want you
to examine both of these pieces of paper in any event.
Mr. PAINE. Well, it looks to me as if 364 is a more usual kind of paper,
the difference is pretty slight.
Mr. LIEBELER. You do not notice a difference between the two papers,
however?
Mr. PAINE. Yes; is seems to me that is unusually crisp; yes, I would say
there is a difference.
Mr. LIEBELER And you note that the difference is, 142 is more crisp than
364?
Mr. PAINE. Yes. It seems to me this is the kind of paper, it seems to me
this is more common.
Mr. LIEBELER. Referring to 364?
Mr. PAINE. 364, yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you think that is a more commonly observed type of
paper?
Mr. PAINE. Yes; that is an unusual paper. You don't find paper bags made
of that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Referring to 142. Now, examine after examining both 142 and
364, did you have any paper of that type as far as you know in your garage or at
your home in
Mr. PAINE. Well, most of the things that are paper have been added to the
garage since I moved out, so I am not very familiar with them. We stored some
rugs in, I think, in polyethylene, but I am not sure all of them were in
polyethylene, and there were some curtain rods or something like that which are
still there. I don't know how they came.
Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of curtain rods?
Mr. PAINE. These expanding rods that are----
Mr. LIEBELER. And you have no idea where they came from?
Mr. PAINE. Let's see, no, those came down from--I think those were in the
house, I guess they weren't bought. I think Ruth took them down because the
children were allergic to something, and she was taking them down, took down the
curtains, and left only shades. Bought shades, I guess, she bought curtain
shades to go up, new shades. That is a question, well, of course, paper could
have been--I don't remember any particular, I didn't have any rolls of this kind
of paper or a supply of it, wrapping paper.
Mr. LIEBELER. Let's go back to the curtain rods for just a minute. You
say they were in the house at the time in
Mr. PAINE. Yes, curtain rods came to my mind recently because they are
junk that I try to keep propped up on the shelves or above the work bench, and I
think they were in our house and there were curtains on them and she took
the curtains down to get rid of the fabric that might be holding dust and put up
instead some new curtains, new window shades in the bedrooms.
Mr. LIEBELER. Approximately when did she do that, do you remember?
Mr. PAINE. You will have to ask Ruth herself. She put down a new floor,
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also,
getting rid of the old rugs for the same purpose, and I thought it was in the
fall, but I can't place when it was.
Mr. LIEBELER. In the fall of 1963?
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you say the curtain rods are still in the garage?
Mr. PAINE. Yes, I think so.
Mr. LIEBELER. Approximately how long are they?
Mr. PAINE. Well, I think this is, when they expand, I guess the curtain
rods themselves are 32 1/2 inches to 3 feet, but the two of them slide together
to make a pair, this expanding type just of rod metal.
Mr. LIEBELER. Approximately how long are they, would you say, when they
are fitted together and in their collapsed state or their----
Mr. PAINE. As I say, those
came out of house or she would not have, I was trying to think of some of the
paper she might have had that resembles this, but the thing she bought new would
be the shades, the window shades to go in place of those curtain rods.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember seeing any paper in the garage that might
have been a package in which those shades came?
Mr. PAINE. No, I don't recall any.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever have a conversation with your wife about these
curtain rods in connection with the assassination?
Mr. PAINE. No. I think we did both read that he had said he was, to
Frazier, that he was carrying, maybe it was curtain rods or something to do with
windows in my mind.
Mr. LIEBELER. But your wife
didn't mention to you that Oswald ever mentioned to her anything about the
curtains rods?
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, place yourself in the garage on or about November 21,
22, 1963, or shortly before that time, and tell me everything that you can
remember as being in that garage.
Mr. PAINE. Well, there is a bench along, in front of, a fiberglass window
panel. That bench is generally
covered with boxes, there are boxes underneath that bench. On the end of the
bench is a drill press. My recollection is confused by the fact I am much more
familiar with it now that I have moved back and I have moved my stuff into that
garage, so it is fuzzy in my memory.
Mr. LIEBELER. Were
you present on November 22 when the police or the FBI or any other authorities
searched the garage?
Mr. PAINE. No, I wasn't.
Mr. LIEBELER. What time did you get to the
Mr. PAINE. I think just about 3 o'clock.
Mr. LIEBELER. 3 o'clock on Friday afternoon?
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. What were the circumstances under which you first heard of
the assassination on that day?
Mr. PAINE. I was eating lunch in the bowling alley, and the waitress came
and told me. I thought she was joking, and we went and listened to somebody's
transistor, and then I went back to the lab.
Mr. LIEBELER. At that time you had heard only that the President had been
shot, is that correct?
Mr. PAINE. Yes, that is correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. There was no connection with Oswald?
Mr. PAINE. That is correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. And the assassination at that time?
Mr. PAINE. That is right. Went back to the lab and then----
Mr. LIEBELER. Before you get back to the lab let me ask you this, who was
with you at the first time you heard the assassination?
Mr. PAINE. Dave Noel.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was Mr. Krystinik with you?
Mr. PAINE. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear during this first period of time when you
first heard of the assassination, that the President had been shot near the
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Mr. PAINE. I don't believe so. I think, I heard that he had been shot, I
listened over some of the crowd's shoulders, a little cluster of people
listening to a transistor radio thereby knowing it was no joke, so we went back
to the lab where there is a radio. So I didn't hear it until I got back to the
lab. As soon as I got back to the lab it was not very long after that that it
was mentioned, that the Texas School Book Depository Building was mentioned, and
then I mentioned to Frank Krystinik that is where Lee worked, and, then in the
course of the next half hour Frank and I were discussing whether to report to
the FBI that Lee worked there, and----
Mr. LIEBELER. Tell me what you said and what he said.
Mr. PAINE. He was urging me to do it, and or asking whether I didn't
think we should do it, and I was torn but I came up with the decision no, the
FBI already knows he works there. Everybody will be jumping on him because he is
a black sheep, and I didn't want to join the hysterical mob in his harassment.
So I decided I wouldn't call, I didn't say that I couldn't but I said I wasn't
going to call the FBI on it.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you told him that?
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did he say?
Mr. PAINE. Well, I think he accepted it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did it occur to you at that time that Oswald had in fact
had anything to do with the assassination?
Mr. PAINE. Yes, of course, it did, I am sure it made by heart leap to
hear that building mentioned. But I thought--I didn't see how it helped the
causes that he presumably was concerned about, so I thought it unlikely on that
account alone.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think he was capable of doing that at that time?
Mr. PAINE. We heard or somewhere I read or heard a report, and an eye
witness, presumably eye witness, report saying the man who was shooting the
President took his good old time or, in other words, fired with deliberateness.
This seemed in character.
Mr. LIEBELER. With Oswald?
Mr. PAINE. With Oswald, yes. I don't think he was a person with
compassion, or--the only reason I didn't think he was because I didn't see how
it fitted in with his philosophy or how it was going to forward his causes, not
because it seemed--not because it was not possible to his nature or his
character.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you call Ruth after you learned of the assassination
and prior to the time that you heard Oswald----
Mr. PAINE. Yes, I did call her.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did you say and what did she say?
Mr. PAINE. We said very little. That must have been, I guess I called her
immediately getting back to the lab, so she would be watching and listening and
getting clued in to the news, start watching the news. That must have also been
before the
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to her after you learned that the TSBD was
involved, but before you learned that Oswald was suspected of being involved?
Mr. PAINE. No, I don't believe I called her again.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you subsequently learn that Oswald had been arrested?
Mr. PAINE. Yes. As soon as I heard his name mentioned, then I went home.
His name, of course, was mentioned not in connection with the
Mr. LIEBELER. Because you knew he did work at the TSBD?
Mr. PAINE. Yes, of course, Frank and I were having this heart-wrenching
discussion about the right thing to do. And justification for my action was
based on the thought that he was probably not the one and, therefore, it was a
cruelty to be adding to the harassment that he would inevitably encounter
because anyone who knew him for very long surely knew his views. That is he
would, he would be a black sheep in any crowd of Americans.
Mr. LIEBELER. Let's go back to the question of this paper. Do you have
any
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recollection
of ever seeing any paper like either one of these two samples in front of you,
142 and 364, in or about your place in
And in connection with this question consider also the gummed wrapping
tape with which the packages are reconstructed?
Mr. PAINE. We have a roll of gummed wrapping paper at home but this is 3
inches wide and we have 2-inch wide. Do you have a ruler here? Yes, this is
3-inch tape.
Now I don't remember for certain what the tape is we had at home,but I
the impression it was a 2-inch tape.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any recollection that the authorities inquired
about this question before?
Mr. PAINE. No, I don't recall that question at all.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you still have that tape?
Mr. PAINE. Yes, we do.
Mr. LIEBELER. I would like to have you make sure that it doesn't get lost
when we come down to
Mr. PAINE. All right. Do you want me to make a note of it?
Mr. LIEBELER. In fact, I will ask you if you would, when you return to
Irving, if you would take a sample of that tape and mail it to me at the
Commission so that between now and the time I come to Texas the FBI will have an
opportunity to examine it and compare it with the tape which has been used in
making bags. Do you recall whether that tape was at your premises on November
22?
Mr. PAINE. I think so. It has been there for quite a long time. That is
presumably, I don't think it has been used up. I was using it fairly recently. I
didn't use much so it would still be there, and I think it had been a big roll
and now it is a small roll. We don't use much.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where was it located on the 22d of November, do you
remember?
Mr. PAINE. Yes; there is a drawer which it is possible he knew of. The
desk---I think he helped us move the furniture around at that time the desk was
moved to its present position, which is right beside the garage door. There is a
kitchen-dining area and from that the door leads into the garage and it is right
beside that door in the bottom drawer.
Mr. LIEBELER. What about the paper. Do you think that there is any
possibility that Oswald could have gotten the paper from which he presumably
made this bag at your place?
Mr. PAINE. Well, I don't recognize that paper.
Mr. LIEBELER. Referring to 142?
Mr. PAINE. Or as I say, this looks more common or cheaper grade of paper.
Mr. LIEBELER. Referring to 364.
Mr. PAINE. And I don't remember paper of either kind, of course, in the
garage itself.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any recollection of the authorities inquiring
about the presence or absence of paper like this at your place?
Mr. PAINE. No, I don't remember.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any discussions about any questions which the
FBI or the other authorities may have asked your wife about this question?
Mr. PAINE. I don't remember anything on it. One way or the other about
that.
Mr. LIEBELER. To the best of your recollection the subject has never been
mentioned between yourself and your wife?
Mr. PAINE. I am certain that I have never discussed tape with anyone. I
did know it was reported in the paper that Lee went to work that morning with
something wrapped in brown paper, curtain rods, I guess he did call it. Whether
we had some discussion or I think it is we may have had some discussion, I just
don't remember the burden of it.
Mr. LIEBELER. I have a list of names of people who I think lived in the
Dallas and Fort Worth area and I want to ask you whether you know them or
whether their names are familiar to you. Mr. and Mrs. Peter Gregory?
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Mr. PAINE. The name has been mentioned. Ruth, I think, Russian speaking
people, Ruth has mentioned the name.
Mr. LIEBELER. You have never met them?
Mr. PAINE. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any recollection of what Ruth told you about
them?
Mr. PAINE. I don't believe she had met them either. No, I don't recall
what she said about them.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you that she had called Mr. Peter Gregory in
connection with some work she wanted to do in the Russian language, subsequent
to the assassination?
Mr. PAINE. I don't remember the context in which she mentioned Peter
Gregory's name.
Mr. LIEBELER. Max Clark.
Mr. PAINE. That is an unfamiliar name.
Mr. LIEBELER. Gali Clark?
Mr. PAINE. No, I don't know that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Elena Hall, Mrs John Hall?
Mr. PAINE. No, I don't remember that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. George Bouhe?
Mr. PAINE. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Anna Meller?
Mr. PAINE. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Anna Ray?
Mr. PAINE. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. And that is Mr. and Mrs. Frank Ray?
Mr. PAINE. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. George De Mohrenschildt?
Mr. PAINE. It was, the name there is familiar. I don't believe I have met
them. They were friends of
Mr. LIEBELER. Moved into De Mohrenschildt's house?
Mr. PAINE. Yes; they were, they had been in
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Mr. Glover tell you that?
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. You never met De Mohrenschildt?
Mr. PAINE. I have--
Mr. LIEBELER. You don't know anything about them?
Mr. PAINE. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever speak of them?
Mr. PAINE. I think he did, yes, yes; he did.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what he said?
Mr. PAINE. I remember, I don't remember what he said about them. I
was--it is possibly because he said the name twice and I didn't catch it until
after the second time he had spoken of it or it didn't ring a bell, De
Mohrenschildt didn't ring a bell, or he didn't pronounce it with such clarity or
something. So it didn't really register and I didn't connect it up with whatever
he was saying at the time.
Mr. LIEBELER. Gary and Alexandra Taylor?
Mr. PAINE. No; I don't think so.
Mr. LIEBELER. Tatiana Biggers?
Mr. PAINE.
Mr. LIEBELER. The name previously mentioned, Mr. Everett Glover, is he a
close friend of yours?
Mr. PAINE. We have known him a long time since we have been in
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him
only occasionally when he would go to the madrigals and once I went skating with
him. Occasionally we have met also at the theater center. He has been there
also. Occasionally also I have stopped by--there is a--he showed up once or
twice at a single adult party dance of the
Mr. LIEBELER. He doesn't work with
Mr. PAINE. No; he works for an oil company, I think.
Mr. LIEBELER. He is a geologist?
Mr. PAINE. He may be something of that sort.
Mr. LIEBELER. Richard Pierce?
Mr. PAINE,. Yes; he lived with
Mr. LIEBELER. How well do you know him?
Mr. PAINE. I know him much less than Everett. When we visited
Mr. LIEBELER. What about Mr. and Mrs. Norman Fredricksen?
Mr. PAINE. That name doesn't ring a bell either.
Mr. LIEBELER. Volkmar Schmidt?
Mr. PAINE. He is in that same category with Mr. Pierce living with
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know a Mr. and Mrs. Thomas Ray?
Mr. PAINE. I don't think I know Ray.
Mr. LIEBELER. Ilya Mamantov?
Mr. PAINE. I suppose that is Mr. Mamantov whom I recognize by sight but I
may have shaken his hand.
Mr. LIEBELER. How do you have occasion to recognize him by sight?
Mr. PAINE. Well, he is the son-in-law, if Ilya is the right name I don't
know, I know him as Mr. Mamantov, Ruth's tutor, I have forgotten his name at
this time.
Mr. LIEBELER. Dorothy Gravitis?
Mr. PAINE. That is right. And I have seen him around SMU and he was an
interpreter at the police station.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know anybody by the name of Harten?
Mr. PAINE. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Warner Kloepfer?
Mr. PAINE. No; I don't think so.
Mr. LIEBELER. Has Ruth ever spoken to you of the Kloepfers?
Mr. PAINE. Not that I can recall.
Mr. LIEBELER. My understanding is they lived there in
Mr. PAINE. Oh, then I don't know them. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know a Charles Edward Harris?
Mr. PAINE. No.
Mr. LIEBELER.
Mr. PAINE. I know Elizabeth MacDonald, I think it is.
Mr. LIEBELER. Who is she?
Mr. PAINE. She was a friend of---she would come to these madrigal groups
and I think she was a friend of either of
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Col. J. D. Wilmeth?
Mr. PAINE. No; I don't know
him. A colleague at work lives nearby who shares a well with him and keeps it
repaired.
Mr. LIEBELER. Who does?
Mr. PAINE. Clark Benham, another colleague at work, uses the water from
Colonel Wilmeth's well and has to keep the well operating so I hear stories
about Mr. Wilmeth and he lives with his old, ancient mother. I haven't met him
myself, I don't believe.
Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned that---did you mention that he called you at
your office at one time?
Mr. PAINE. Yes; I think he has, yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us the circumstances of that event?
Mr. PAINE Well, he wanted to see Marina, I think, he wanted to hear, I
think he said he wanted to hear the native tongue spoken or spoken by a native.
And
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so
he was quite eager to meet both Ruth and Marina and called me to ask how and
when and what not. So, he may have called me more than once on that subject.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any idea why he called you at work? In order to
contact these women?
Mr. PAINE. It seemed very appropriate. Maybe Clark, Clark, of course,
sees him quite frequently, and maybe Clark told him that
Mr. LIEBELER. You never have met Colonel Wilmeth?
Mr. PAINE. I don't believe so.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Ruth ever tell you that Colonel Wilmeth had come to
call on her and Marina?
Mr. PAINE. Yes; that call or one or two calls he made to the lab to me
was asking me if I would make it possible for him to meet them and so I told
Ruth, and either Ruth called or I told her that he was, he would like to come on
the weekend or something or he would call, I forget, but anyway I was a
go-between to help in a polite way to meet Ruth.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Ruth tell you about the meeting when he came?
Mr. PAINE. She did; yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us about it.
Mr. PAINE. I think she said she had a good time, I don't remember.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember any of the details of what she said?
Mr. PAINE. I don't remember the details; no.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know a gentleman by the name of
Mr. PAINE. No; I don't.
Mr. LIEBELER. He is a barber in
Mr. PAINE. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you ordinarily get your hair cut in
Mr. PAINE. I used to get my hair cut, and I don't think that is the name
of the person or where it used to be done but for the year that I was living in
Grand Prairie, I found a barber I liked better over there and I had it done over
there all the time, almost all the time. I guess I haven't in months. I had
another barber down in
Mr. LIEBELER. How much does a haircut cost in
Mr. PAINE. I think more frequently it is a dollar fifty; when I get it
over in
Mr. LIEBELER. Is there a standard price so far as you know for barber
shops in
Mr. PAINE. I would suppose a dollar and fifty was.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever know Oswald to associate with any young boys?
There has been a report that he was seen in the presence of, in the company of a
14-year-old boy. Do you know of anyone fitting that description?
Mr. PAINE. I don't know of anyone with whom he associated. I didn't--I
was aware of not asking him how he spent his free time.
Mr. LIEBELER. There has also been a report from Mr. Leonard Edwin
Hutchison who apparently runs Hutch's Supermarket in
Mr. PAINE. No; I haven't.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Mr. Hutchison?
Mr. PAINE. No; I don't believe I did.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know, are you familiar with Hutch's Market,
Supermarket?
Mr. PAINE. I am trying to think of the name of the market that is on
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever take Oswald to any supermarket?
Mr. PAINE. I didn't; no.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever use your automobile?
Mr. PAINE. Not to my knowledge. Presumably he couldn't drive. He couldn't
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have
used my automobile very well because I don't believe he knew where my second key
was, and I would always have the key.
Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of an automobile do you own?
Mr. PAINE. It is a French Citroen.
Mr. LIEBELER. What model?
Mr. PAINE. 1959; year 1959.
Mr. LIEBELER. Not a 2CV?
Mr. PAINE. No; it is an ID-19, I guess.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is that the only automobile that you own?
Mr. PAINE. While they were here I bought a second automobile; an Olds,
'55 or '56 Oldsmobile, '56, I believe.
Mr. LIEBELER. When was this?
Mr. PAINE. During the time, sometime between September and November, I
bought a secondhand '56 Oldsmobile.
Mr. LIEBELER. For your own personal use?
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. So that you then had two cars?
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And Ruth has a station wagon, doesn't she?
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And that is her own car?
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is that the only automobile that she owns?
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. What model is that?
Mr. PAINE. '55.
Mr. LIEBELER. Chevrolet station wagon?
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether Oswald used that?
Mr. PAINE. Ruth took Oswald to practice driving in a parking lot.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you about that?
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did she tell you?
Mr. PAINE. I can't remember whether she has told me so much more since
November 22 and I can't remember whether she may have said before that. She was
telling me how he was persistent, diligent in trying to learn, not very
particularly skilled, and apparently quite pleased at the whole process. He was
grateful to her and one of the nicest kinds of communication she had with him.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did she say anything about his ability to drive a car?
Mr. PAINE. She thought it was pretty crude. He was having trouble
operating the clutch, and over-controlling the stick, or the steering wheel.
Those are my words. She didn't use "over-controlling" but put it in
some other way.
Mr. LIEBELER. The station wagon has a straight transmission.
Mr. PAINE. No; it is an automatic transmission, power brakes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was he practicing on the station wagon or----
Mr. PAINE. Yes; over-controlling the stick, I was thinking of an
airplane.
Mr. LIEBELER. I thought you mentioned the clutch.
Mr. PAINE. Maybe it was the brake; did I mention the clutch?
Mr. LIEBELER. At any event she wasn't overly impressed with his ability
to manipulate the controls?
Mr. PAINE. She was impressed with how much a person has to learn when
they learn to drive a car.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever lend Oswald any money?
Mr. PAINE. No; I didn't.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever give him any?
Mr. PAINE. No; I didn't.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether your wife did?
Mr. PAINE. I don't believe she gave Lee any money. She gave
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any
idea of how much she gave
Mr. PAINE. Generally she would pay for things that
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and
things like that. I think she also gave her pocket money. It may have been five
dollars a week or something like that. It could have been ten dollars a week. I
doubt if it would be that much.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any knowledge of Oswald spending any money for
bus fare from
Mr. PAINE. He would come out and I suppose by bus to
Mr. LIEBELER. At the bus station in
Mr. PAINE. At the bus station in
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you say it was just twice that he did that?
Mr. PAINE. I think that is about all.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any idea what the bus fare from
Mr. PAINE. No; I don't have any idea.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether Oswald spent any money for telephone
calls?
Mr. PAINE. I never saw Oswald spend any money.
Mr. LIEBELER. For anything, under any circumstances at any time?
Mr. PAINE. Yes. Of course, that shouldn't be
you construe that as you please, but if you think it is penny-pinching it
may be. But I saw him at home and not in any position to spend money. He didn't
have any money jingling in his pockets that I recalled.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether Oswald owned any cameras?
Mr. PAINE. I wasn't aware of it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether he ever bought any records, musical
records?
Mr. PAINE. Well, they made some records for us, I thought they were
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know whether Oswald received any periodicals or
mail at your address in
Mr. PAINE. Yes. The Daily Worker, or it is not the Daily Worker now but
the Worker, what is it called now?
Mr. LIEBELER. The Worker.
Mr. PAINE. Would come. Ruth said he received all his, The Militant also
there. I don't remember, recall, seeing The Militant there but generally, I
didn't see the mail very much. She would put my mail apart, I had half my mail
or more than half my mail would come to that address, since I didn't feel the
one at Grand Prairie was a permanent address, so I didn't see most of the mail.
She would separate my mail into a separate pile and I would pick it up.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever have any discussion with Oswald about these
periodicals?
Mr. PAINE. Yes. He said in regard to, I think, the Worker or at least it
was the Worker he gave me to look at as the result of his conversation, he told
me if you knew how to read the thing and read between the lines a little bit you
could see what they wanted you to do.
Mr. LIEBELER. He said that?
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. When did he say that?
Mr. PAINE. I think that was a week or two after he came, pretty soon
after coming back. I talked to him rather less and less as the weeks rolled by.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ask him what he meant by that remark?
Mr. PAINE. Well, I certainly wish I had, no; I didn't. I took the issue
he gave me just to make my eye go over it. I thought to myself instead here is a
person who is pretty, well, out of it again if this is the way he gets his
communications from headquarters.
Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us everything that you can remember about that
conversation.
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Mr. PAINE. That wasn't much of a conversation. It happened in an
afternoon. I am afraid I can't remember anything more about it. I remember only
the thoughts, I sort of smiled to myself when he said this.
Mr. LIEBELER. Why?
Mr. PAINE. Thinking of the kind of person--what it said about him so it
suggested to me he wanted to be a party to something or a part of a group that
had objectives. In other words, he wanted to be an activist of some sort. And he
wasn't aware of--it seemed somewhat childish to me.
Mr. LIEBELER. Why do you say that?
Mr. PAINE. Well it would have seemed more competent to have more explicit
communication clandestine, if it would have to be clandestine. And if you had
more explicit communication of some sort you wouldn't mention receiving your
directions from the newspaper, reading between the lines of a newspaper.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever say anything to you that would indicate that he
had ever received more explicit instructions from anybody regarding any subject
in the political field?
Mr. PAINE. No; he didn't, and it was these various--there weren't many
occasions. Another time at the ACLU, in this talk that he had with Frank or this
argument that he had with Frank and a third person on the way home he asked me
if I knew that third person and whether I thought he was a Communist, and he
said he thought he was a Communist, Lee thought the third person was a
Communist, and he gave me some reason and a receptivity to some words spoken
about Castro. And I thought that was such a feeble reason or explanation of a
Communist that again I thought to myself he must be out of it if that is the way
he has to find his fellow travelers.
Mr. LIEBELER. When you use the expression "out of it" do you
mean to convey the idea that he was not closely associated with any Communist
group or he just had a very tenuous grip on reality?
Mr. PAINE. No; I mean in this case he was not associated with a cell or a
Communist group. This I didn't know. That was the impression and thought in the
back of my mind from the things he had said.
Mr. LIEBELER. When he made this remark about the person at the ACLU
meeting being a Communist how was the remark made, did he seem to indicate to
you some desire to reach out and to know this person, to meet this person, to
associate with him or was he just making a general remark or were you thinking
in the perjurative sense, how did he speak, what impression did he give you?
Mr. PAINE. I had the impression that he hoped he would be a Communist and
he would like to meet him again, yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you notice the person. this third person?
Mr. PAINE. No; I didn't.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was he an elderly person?
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know a Reverend Helligas?
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. This was not him?
Mr. PAINE. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you observe Oswald speak with Reverend Helligas that
evening at the meeting?
Mr. PAINE. No; I didn't.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever learned the identity of this third person?
Mr. PAINE. No; I haven't.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever seen him again?
Mr. PAINE. I think that is the last ACLU meeting I have been to. They
convene very infrequently.
Mr. LIEBELER. By that do you mean you have not seen this person again?
Mr. PAINE. Therefore, I have not seen him again. I expect he is a
registered member of the ACLU. I had the impression he was an ACLU member. He is
rather softspoken, a quiet man.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you recognize him again if you saw him?
Mr. PAINE. I probably would.
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Mr. LIEBELER. Have you discussed him with anybody else in the ACLU?
Mr. PAINE. I joined Frank to the ACLU now.
Mr. LIEBELER. You discussed him with Frank?
Mr. PAINE. Yes; that is Frank Krystinik.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you attempted to identify this third person?
Mr. PAINE. No; I never, I have not.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever know Oswald to give Marina any money during
the time that Marina lived at your house?
Mr. PAINE. No; I did not.
Mr. LIEBELER. When Oswald stayed at your home in Irving on the weekends,
did he eat all of his meals there?
Mr. PAINE. I came only for Friday's supper and would leave and would
sometimes be there on Sunday. Therefore, I couldn't be--I was not in a position
to say. I think he did.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether he ever made any contribution in
respect to those meals?
Mr. PAINE. Oh, no, he didn't.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he make any contribution to any of the other expenses
of the household?
Mr. PAINE. No, he didn't. I for one didn't expect him to. I didn't--I
would have been surprised had he done so.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether he packed lunch in the morning when he
left for work and took it with him or ate breakfast there before he left?
Mr. PAINE. He would eat breakfast there. This again was just what Ruth
has told me, he would eat a breakfast consisting of coffee and maybe a piece of
toast. I forget what it is. I don't believe he packed a lunch.
Mr. LIEBELER. You do believe?
Mr. PAINE. I don't believe he did.
Mr. LIEBELER. You don't believe.
Mr. PAINE. I don't know of it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever discuss finances with you or in your
presence?
Mr. PAINE. Well, I raised the problem when he obtained the job at the
Book Depository Building, I mentioned that one and a quarter, I wanted to
confirm at one and a quarter, and I did somehow.
Mr. LIEBELER. Why did you want to confirm that?
Mr. PAINE It seemed to me that is still a pretty slim pickings to live
on, also I was concerned about how long the job might last, and I inquired,
therefore, about the number of people working there and how come he was employed
after all after the school year began so if he was employed then it was possible
that it was a full year occupation. I would have normally expected the rush of
employment to be prior to the school year. And then to lay off after the books
had been sent. I was concerned in other words that he should be able to keep his
job, but also I would have preferred had it been a little bit more money he
would be a happier person.
Mr. LIEBELER. That later part is your own surmise?
Mr. PAINE. Yes; but it is my own experience.
Mr. LIEBELER. In terms of Oswald?
Mr. PAINE. He was pleased to get the job, and I avoided talking too
directly about the possibility of his losing that job because I felt it was, he
would be concerned about the same matter, and now perhaps I was projecting but I
do remember not asking as many questions about that as were in my mind just
because I didn't want to arouse the anxiety that he must feel in regard to the
job.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever indicate to you that he felt that the FBI was
responsible for his not being able to obtain a job?
Mr. PAINE. No; he didn't.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever indicate that he thought the FBI was
responsible for his losing a job?
Mr. PAINE. No; he never mentioned losing a job with me. I surmised from
the first time I met him, he was at the Neely Street address, and Marina was
packing, took about half an hour to leave and Marina was packing things for
Junie. And so he and I sat on the sofa and talked.
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Mr. LIEBELER. This is before he went to New Orleans?
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And they were packing to go to New Orleans?
Mr. PAINE. No, no; packing to come over to our house for dinner.
Mr. LIEBELER. I see.
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. This was the first time you met him?
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did he
say?
Mr. PAINE. And there he mentioned how he didn't have people at work,
people who talked about this subject of politics and economics and he also
mentioned with some bitterness how his employer made more money than he did and
the things that his employer had that he did not have. It was the only time I
observed personal animosity, and I thought to myself, he must be rather
difficult, that animosity or resentment must show through to his employer.
This was just in what he said. It struck me that these things must
happen. When he later lost his job, I don't know whether it was later or not but
he may have lost the job already, I didn't realize it, I thought he was still
employed there. These seemed to me adequate reasons, sub rosa reasons for his
dismissal.
Mr. LIEBELER. You never had any indication from anyone that he felt the
FBI was in any way responsible for his losing his job?
Mr. PAINE. He never mentioned the FBI to me. And I never talked with
anyone else who knew him except Ruth. Ruth did, of course indicate, told me of
his extreme allergy to the FBI.
Mr. LIEBELER. But she didn't indicate that he felt that they had caused
him to lose jobs?
Mr. PAINE. I think she mentioned this, she asked me not to mention this
to other people but I guess you are not just other people. She read this note
which he had left on her desk, I had the impression it was a couple of days;
actually it was only a day or so. He had written, typed it but had written a
rough draft which he left on her desk; she gave the note, her copy of it,
perhaps, she copied it for me to read. I didn't really absorb it, I did read it,
and I did read he spoke of the notorious FBI.
Ruth cited the letter to me as an example of how he could lie. She hadn't
been aware of his lying before. She thought his trip to Mexico, which he
mentioned his trip to Mexico in his letter hadn't been true and it was a
fabrication, but it was, we talked, therefore, a little bit about his---also, I
think----
Mr. LIEBELER. His feeling about the FBI?
Mr. PAINE. We talked a little bit about his abuse of the FBI there. And
also I think it was mentioned that, Ruth mentioned to me that, the FBI had been
out once or twice or had reported this to me, and that Lee seemed to resent
that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Let's go back to this letter, when did Ruth first show you
this letter, and I take it you are referring to a draft of a letter from Oswald
to the Russian Embassy?
Mr. PAINE. I didn't know who it was written to.
Mr. LIEBELER. But the letter referred to the notorious FBI?
Mr. PAINE. Yes; I don't think it was the Russian Embassy. I thought it
was a friend to whom he was speaking in a rather braggart way of what he had
done. He had gone down to the Cuban Consulate in Mexico, and they had, I think
this is the letter, I could be mixed up, and that they had not given him a
visa--actually, I had made a mistake in the heading because I thought--it said,
"Dear Sirs," but I though it said, "Dear Lisa." Ruth told me
it had said, "Dear Sirs."
Mr. LIEBELER. This was in Russian or in English?
Mr. PAINE. She must have shown me the letter in his hand, therefore, yes.
I thought it was "Dear Lisa," English.
Mr. LIEBELER. When did she show you this letter?
Mr. PAINE. This is a confusing matter, because I was reading some other
magazine at the time, and she intruded this thing on my attention, and I didn't
really shift attention too well.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was it before the assassination or afterwards?
Mr. PAINE. It was before, yes. No; afterwards, I would have paid close
attention
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to
it. Since recently, I have, Ruth has, figured out that it must have been, he
must have started writing on Friday or something and she cleaned up or removed
the desk, it was that time when we moved the furniture. It had been written just
prior to that, and we did that on a Sunday night. Maybe she preserved his
original draft, I don't remember what happened, because I would have guessed
that in order to misread the "Dear Sirs" for "Dear Lisa," I
would have seen it, I would have read it correctly in her hand.
Mr. LIEBELER. Recapitulate for me, if you can, the number of times and
the dates on which you saw Oswald after he returned from New Orleans up until
the time of the assassination. You said you saw him, I believe shortly after he
returned from wherever he had been.
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And that was around October 4, was it not?
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. The first part of October. When was the next time you saw
him?
Mr. PAINE. I think I probably saw him on each weekend except the one
preceding the assassination. There were at least one or two, I think there were
two before he had a job and then he had a job and a birthday party.
Mr. LIEBELER. That would have been October 18, would it not,
approximately, when he had a birthday party or represented to you that his
birthday was October 18?
Mr. PAINE. Yes; he may have celebrated the next day but----
Mr. LIEBELER. And your recollection is that you saw him each weekend
after that except for the weekend immediately prior to the assassination?
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. The weekend of November 8, 9, and 10 was a long weekend,
was it not?
Mr. PAINE. He was there then. I remember we didn't have a long weekend,
Bell didn't. He had another day to sit in front of the TV.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was that the last weekend that you saw him then?
Mr. PAINE. If that is the one prior, two weekends, yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, starting at November 8, 9, and 10, which was the last
time you saw him, consider when your wife showed you the draft of the letter
that we spoke of just before. Would it have been that weekend or after that?
Mr. PAINE. Well, I suppose it would be after that. They weren't in the
house when she showed it to me or at least he wasn't. I don't remember when he
wrote that letter or when we moved the furniture.
Mr. LIEBELER. You don't remember whether you saw Oswald after you read
the letter or not?
Mr. PAINE. That is a good question, I can see some point to it now. One
would surmise that, and I would think it reasonable that I would have looked at
him with somewhat different point of view after having read the letter, and I
don't remember looking at him with that different point of view, so quite
possibly I didn't see him again.
Mr. LIEBELER. So we would--the conclusion would be suggested that she
showed you the letter sometime after November 8 or 9, 1963?
Mr. PAINE. Yes; yes, I would guess that she, as I say, I would come to a
dinner when he was not there on either of the Tuesday or the Wednesday and that
would have been a reasonable time that she would have shown me the letter.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have a discussion with her about this subject of
his having gone to Mexico which was discussed in the letter, was it not?
Mr. PAINE. She thought it was a fabrication, a complete fabrication. And
she did not discuss, she gave me the letter, and as I say I was reading some
other magazine and I read the letter and went back to my magazine. How dense
people can be. But anyway----
Mr. LIEBELER. Did she----
Mr. PAINE. So we did not talk about it until later, then she took the
letter back and put it in an envelope or something, she didn't want me to see
it. She was sort of irked that I didn't.
Mr. LIEBELER. Look at it when she wanted you to look at it?
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Mr. PAINE. Pay more attention to this thing, yes. But she didn't want me
to see it again. "If You didn't see anything in it never mind looking at
it."
Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you about any discussions she had with Marina
Oswald about Oswald's having been in Mexico?
Mr. PAINE. I was under the impression that Ruth didn't know he had been
in Mexico until after the assassination and, therefore, and I think Ruth later
said, was dismayed also that Marina had been apparently, had apparently known
and deceived her in this matter.
Mr. LIEBELER. Well, did Ruth mention the fact that Marina had a little
charm made out of Mexican peso.
Mr. PAINE. Yes; but we didn't put that two and two together there until
the FBI came and we looked on our drill press to see if they had used the tools
in the shop to mount the sights on the gun and we found these little metal
filings and then Ruth remembered that he had drilled out a coin to give to
Marina and she never--I can't remember whether she realized then that it was a
peso or Ruth hadn't thought that much about it until afterward.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you didn't discuss that subject prior to the
assassination, with your wife?
Mr. PAINE. I didn't know about this whole thing, this medallion.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did your wife mention the fact that Marina Oswald had a
record of Mexican music?
Mr. PAINE. No; I didn't know that until now. I don't recall it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did your wife tell you anything about the nature of her
relationship with Marina Oswald during this period from the first of October up
to the assassination?
Mr. PAINE. It all seemed perfectly reasonable to me. When Ruth had met
Marina back in the spring, I had seen that Marina Oswald--when I met them in
their apartment, Oswald had spoken very loudly and harshly to Marina, and I
thought to myself, isn't it amazing to see a little fellow who insists on
wearing the pants, strongly. And then later on in discussions which followed the
discussion which followed, that evening at the house, our house, he would not
let her have a contrary opinion, and I also saw she was allergic to gibes, and
he would gibe frequently.
Mr. LIEBELER. She was allergic to them?
Mr. PAINE. It seemed to me so.
Mr. LIEBELER. They affected her greatly?
Mr. PAINE. Yes. This all went on in Russian, and I don't know what he was
saying. But I could see the object about which the statement was made, and later
Ruth also told me some of the things that he had said.
But I felt that he was keeping her a vassal, and since I was more eager
to hear her opinions of Russia than his opinions of Russia, I was eager that she
should learn English, and when--Ruth told me that Marina thought she must have
to go back to the Soviet Union, and I thought out of largesse of this country it
should be possible for her to stay here if she wanted to stay here and she quite
apparently did, she struck me as a somewhat apolitical person and yet true,
just, and conscientious, so it was agreeable to me to look forward to financing
her stay until she could make her own way here.
It added--Ruth also wanted to learn Russian, this was a cheap way for her
to learn Russian, than to pay tutoring. And, as it happened, it was costing me
less. She didn't go out shopping so much.
Mr. LIEBELER. When she was home learning Russian from Marina?
Mr. PAINE. When Marina was there to keep her company. She would go mad
with boredom, I would think. So that it--we were somewhat saddened, or I think
Ruth was, I think we shared--Ruth, of course, didn't want to stand in the way of
Marina and Lee if they were happy together, but would have been glad to see
Marina break away and make her own way. And she was a nice companion for Ruth.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any impression of how Marina and Ruth got
along together, what they did with their time during the day, that sort of
thing? (Discussion off the record.)
Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Paine, you mentioned before these curtain rods that
were in your garage. Can you tell us approximately how many curtain rods there
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were
in the garage when you last saw them and tell us when you last saw them?
Mr. PAINE. I saw them quite recently, 2 weeks ago.
Mr. LIEBELER. How many curtain rods were there then?
Mr. PAINE. There might be as many as four.
Mr. LIEBELER. Were there ever any more than that?
Mr. PAINE. I don't believe so. These were normally up on the shelf above
the bench, and for some reason, they recently, I had to take them down, or
something like that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember seeing them shortly before November 22 at
any time?
Mr. PAINE. They never particularly impressed themselves on my
recollection.
Mr. LIEBELER. Those are all the questions I have.
PAINE,
MICHAEL Volume XI
TESTIMONY
OF MICHAEL RALPH PAINE
The
testimony of Michael Ralph Paine was taken at 12:05 p.m., on July 23, 1964, in
the office of the U.S. Attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay
Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the
President's Commission.
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Mr. LIEBELER. Would you raise your right hand and take the oath, please?
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the
truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. PAINE. Yes; I do.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you state your name for the record?
Mr. PAINE. Michael Ralph Paine.
Mr. LIEBELER. You are familiar with the Commission's procedure and you
have testified before the Commission as I have heretofore indicated, isn't that
correct?
Mr. PAINE. I have testified before---yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. You testified previously that when you first met Lee Oswald
in April 1963, that you discussed to some extent Gen. Edwin A. Walker?
Mr. PAINE. Yes; I think we did discuss him in passing.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever indicate to you in any way that he had been
involved in the attempt on General Walker's life?
Mr. PAINE. Not that I remember at all--nothing whatsoever. I think the
only thing he did--the only thing that I can remember now, was that he seemed to
have a smile in regard to that person. It was .inscrutable I didn't know what he
was smiling about--I just thought perhaps it was--the guy assumed it was rapport
for a person who was an extreme proponent of a certain kind of patriotism or
something.
Mr. LIEBELER. General Walker was?
Mr. PAINE. General Walker was--yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, when you first met Oswald, as I recall, on April 2, I
believe it was, of 1963?
Mr. PAINE. You have been keeping up with this--I haven't been thinking
about Oswald for a year.
Mr. LIEBELER. You don't have any recollection as to the date at this
point?
Mr. PAINE. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. In any event, you did meet Oswald sometime in April, for
the first time; do you recall whether it was before or after that Walker had
been attacked?
Mr. PAINE. I don't recall now; and as I remember--back in the fall--I
wasn't aware then whether it was before or after. It isn't just a lapse of
memory now.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember discussing with Oswald the fact that
someone had shot at General Walker?
Mr. PAINE. No---I don't. That
would have led me to think it was prior to his being shot at.
Mr. LIEBELER. You are referring to this specific date. Now, my question
means to comprehend any time do you remember discussing at any time with Oswald
the fact that General Walker had been attacked?
Mr. PAINE. No; I did not. I didn't see him--I saw him that one evening,
you see, and then I didn't see him for a space of some time.
Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't see him after that one time in April until after
he had returned from New Orleans?
Mr. PAINE. I guess that's right.
Mr. LIEBELER. So, that would have been in October 1963?
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. On June 11, 1964, Marina Oswald testified before the
Commission at which time the following colloquy occurred, as indicated on page
7368 of the Commission's transcript:
Mr. McKENZIE. Mrs. Oswald, you say, or you said a few minutes ago,
that Mr. Paine knew or knows more about your husband's attitude about the
United States than you do. Why did you say that?
Mrs. OSWALD. Because my husband's favorite topic of discussion was
politics and whoever he was with. he talked to them politics and Mr. Paine was
with him a fair amount and I am not sure they talked about politics.
Apparently it should have been "I am quite sure they talked about
politics." But, at any rate, the transcript does read, "I
am not sure they talked about politics."
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They went to meetings of some kind together. I don't know what kind of
meetings.
Mr. McKENZIE. Do you know where the meetings were?
Mrs. OSWALD. In Dallas. After they came back from some meeting, my
husband said to me something about Walker being at this meeting.
Do you remember going at any meeting with Lee Oswald at which Mr. Walker
was present?
Mr. PAINE. No---the only meeting I went to was the ACLU meeting, that I
recall.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall going to any meeting yourself in October
1963, with or without Oswald, at which General Walker was present?
Mr. PAINE. General Walker was present at the Oswald mentioned the U.N.-
U.S. Day meeting held by the rightists, which occurred a day or two or two
nights .before the ACLU meeting. He had been to that by himself. I had gone that
same evening to a John Birch meeting. We were not together, but they were two
things that occurred simultaneously, and that's where Lee, by his report at the
ACLU meeting said he was and Walker was there. Maybe that's what Marina had in
mind.
Mr. LIEBELER. But you, yourself, don't have any recollection of your ever
being at a meeting when he was there?
Mr. PAINE. No; I have never
seen General Walker that I can recall.
Mr. LIEBELER. You have never seen Walker?
Mr. PAINE. Unless he was--in a year previous to that I had been to the
Indignation Committee meeting--no-- that is the answer to your previous
question.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do--to the best of your recollection, you don't ever
remember seeing General Walker present?
Mr. PAINE. That's right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Or having been at a meeting at which you subsequently
learned that he was present, although you didn't see him?
Mr. PAINE. That's right--I can't remember about the previous year, but I
don't think that has relevancy.
Mr. LIEBELER. Well, since the time you met Oswald--you were at no
meetings at which General Walker was present, to your knowledge?
Mr. PAINE. That's true.
Mr. LIEBELER. Marina Oswald goes on to testify and I will recapitulate
part of it, "After they came back from some meeting, my husband said to me
something about Walker being at this meeting and he said, Paine knows that I
shot him.'"
Do you have any reason to believe that--the first question, of course, is
and I have already asked you that and you testified you did not know Oswald shot
Walker prior to the assassination of President Kennedy; is that correct?
Mr. PAINE. That's right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, do you have any reason to believe that Oswald might
have thought that you knew that he, Oswald, had shot at General Walker?
Mr. PAINE. I can't see how he would have thought I knew that. I just
don't see--he might have said something that revealed that and I didn't catch
his meaning, so it never sunk in to me at all, that is, to assume that he wasn't
lying and that is the only way I can explain it.
Mr. LIEBELER. So that you think that this testimony that Marina has given
is either the result of a misapprehension, or a lie on Oswald's part or on
Marina's part?
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you don't have any doubt about that whatsoever?
Mr. PAINE. I am perfectly certain that I didn't know he shot at Walker.
Mr. LIEBELER. Marina herself goes on to say:
I
don't know whether this was the truth or not, I don't know whether it was true
or not, but this is what they told me. And I presume she means that's what Lee
had told her.
Mr. PAINE. Now, wait--this is--it would be well to check for that
"they"---this is testimony in June, you said, and that
"they" could possibly be Martin
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and
Thorne. I don't know much about Martin and Thorne either, but I had the
impression that they were telling her stories.
Mr. LIEBELER. Well, of course, this is what the translator said Marina
had said. Marina is going to be here tomorrow and I will ask her about this then
and see if she can clarify the record, but the point we want to bring out now at
this time is that your testimony is quite clear that you did not know before the
assassination that Oswald had shot at General Walker?
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. You testified before that Oswald had shown you one of those
newspapers of his one day and said you could tell what they wanted you to do by
doing some reading between the lines; is that correct?
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And my recollection is that he was specifically referring
to a copy of The Worker that he showed you at that time?
Mr. PAINE. It was.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever see Oswald reading The Militant?
Mr. PAINE. I do not now remember which are the things that I have come to
realize later and which I knew at the time. I was not particularly aware of The
Militant, as I recall. I really have to remember what my feelings were back in
the fall when I was questioned on the matter and that, as I recall, the name and
quality or the name and nature of The Militant wasn't really very familiar to
me.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever have any discussion with Oswald about the U.S.
policies toward Cuba?
Mr. PAINE. Well, I don't think we did discuss that except in the very
brief talk in the car when he was reciting someone else's approval--apparent
approval of Castro and citing that he was a Communist.
Mr. LIEBELER. I remember you testified about that before that it was on
the way back home after an ACLU meeting.
Mr. PAINE. That's right.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you told him, or thought if that was what he had to go
on to identify anyone as a Communist, that he apparently was reaching quite far?
Mr. PAINE. I thought so, yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall that in the fall of 1963 there was a climate
of what might be called, and what was in fact called, detente between the United
States and the Soviet Union that apparently led people in. some quarters to
believe that the Soviet Union would withdraw its support from the Castro regime
or at least modify its attitude?
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever have any discussion with Oswald about that?
Mr. PAINE. No, we did not.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever indicate in any way that he was aware of
such a thing?
Mr. PAINE. We very seldom spoke about it. Most of our discussions were to
the more specific elements, since there was such a wide area of disagreement it
didn't seem best to talk about smaller points, so we didn't talk about
Soviet-American relations as I recall it in that regard.
Mr. LIEBELER. I show you a
photograph which depicts the same individual as is depicted in Commission
Exhibit No. 237 and ask you to examine it and tell me if you recognize the
individual?
Mr. PAINE. I remember the same face on a picture that I saw earlier, but
I had not at that time, and do not now, recognize the person., but he could work
at Bell.
Mr. LIEBELER. In our discussions in Washington, we had some conversations
about what you thought Oswald's possible motive might have been for the
assassination--I don't think you have really ever set them forth for us on the
record, and if you care to give us your views on that, I would appreciate having
them.
Mr. PAINE. I was more eager to speak about it then--I was thinking about
it then. Since that time I haven't thought about it at all.
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Mr. LIEBELER. Can you reconstruct the thoughts that you had at the time
You were in Washington?
Mr. PAINE. I think my thoughts then were brief and they certainly are
now. I thought it was a very spur of the moment idea that came into his head
when he realized that he would have the opportunity with sort of a duck blind
there, an opportunity to change the course of history, even though he couldn't
predict from that action what course history would take, that in my opinion
would not have deterred him from doing it. I thought that he was of the mind
that something small or evolutionary changes were never going to be of any
effect. It had to be, though he never revealed to me what kind of actions or
policies he would have advocated or did advocate or did want to see I had
frequently had the impression that it was--it had to be of a rather drastic
nature, where kindness or good feelings should not stand in the way of those
actions.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever discuss with you his notion of how society
ought to be structured?
Mr. PAINE. Yes--he did discuss them but not in a way--did he ever
describe anything that could be real. It was more a way that society should not
be structured, that he talked about. Now, I shouldn't really say that--it was a
negative description of how society should not be, and I never did get a
description of what he would like or what one of a more positive nature would be
like.
Mr. LIEBELER. You had the feeling that whatever it was, if in fact he had
a notion about it, would have required a drastic and sudden change?
Mr. PAINE. Well, I don't know about the suddeness but he assumed that the
society was all tied together, the church and the power structure and our
education was all the same vile system and therefore there would have to be an
overthrow of the whole thing. Just how he was going to overthrow it or what he
was going to overthrow toward--it was not clear to me, especially, because it
was also apparent that he didn't particularly admire Russia, so I didn't--I
never did get it clear in my mind what program he was going to inaugurate with
his new world.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever tell you he had written about this subject?
Mr. PAINE. No; he didn't.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you never read any of the things he wrote?
Mr. PAINE. No; I didn't.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know he had written about anything?
Mr. PAINE. No; if I had thought he had written about something, I would
certainly have been eager to have read it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever have any opinion that this man was
psychologically disturbed, suffering from personality disturbances and neurosis
or psychosis--you pick it.
Mr. PAINE. No; truthfully, I should say that did not appear to be a good
description. It seemed simpler and more to the point to say he was extremely
bitter and couldn't believe there was much good will in people. There was mostly
evil, conniving, or else stupidity--was the description--that was his opinion or
would be his description of most people. That's my description, and the best
description I can give of him--to call him other psychological names--names of
paranoia or paranoid or something like that.
Mr. LIEBELER. What made you pick that particular name?
Mr. PAINE. Well, that kind of suspicion of people expecting them to be
consciously perpetrating evil or ill toward him or toward the oppressed
people--workers-is perhaps a trait of paranoia.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think that he exhibited this trait?
Mr. PAINE. Yes; he did, but it didn't seem to be uncontrollable. He
didn't generally take it--I would say he was paranoid if he always took it
personally, but he always seemed to transfer it to, or put himself in the class
of people who were oppressed, so that's the distinction why I wouldn't call him
sick or wouldn't have then called him sick---before the assassination.
Mr. LIEBELER. Because he seemed to describe this feeling of his in
institutional terms?
Mr. PAINE. That's right.
Mr. LIEBELER. And in terms of the social structure and the impact the
world had on classes and groups of people?
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Mr. PAINE. He was in the exploited class.
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; there was no doubt about that--I mean, as far as his
own mind was concerned--that's what he thought?
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. So, that he would describe these terrible misfortunes that
were being perpetrated on a class of people, but he would make it clear that he
did regard himself as being included in that class of people.
Mr. PAINE. That's correct. Now, I think he was a little--I can't remember
now where I got the impression that he was allergic to the FBI, which is another
case of him mentioning being sensitive to a person--a sense of persecution, but
the only thing that I do remember that he did mention that surprised me a little
bit was his sense of personal exploitation by his employer at the photoengraving
company.
Mr. LIEBELER. And when you say you cannot remember where you got the idea
that he was allergic to the FBI, you mean you don't remember whether you were
aware of that before the assassination?
Mr. PAINE. That's correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. Were you aware of it before the assassination or can't you
remember?
Mr. PAINE. I think I learned that from Ruth's statement of things that he
had said and I don't remember whether that was before or after.
Mr. LIEBELER. For instance, if you were told that he in fact did have
quite an allergy to the FBI, whether you were aware of it or not at that time, I
suppose that that would provide an example of one or two things either an
accurate description of what was going on or a slightly exaggerated or greatly
exaggerated notion of what was going on and to that extent a manifestation of
this feeling of persecution, as he put it.
Mr. PAINE. Yes; it was greatly exaggerated--it had, of course, some
grounds, so you wouldn't be too inclined to call it paranoia and the fact that
he also perhaps wanted to continue doing the things that would have to have the
legitimate fear of the surveillance by the FBI because he would want to be
attempting to do something that wasn't legal or proper. In other words, that
would agitate him with grounds--for other reasons than paranoia.
Mr. LIEBELER. One of the witnesses who knew him in the Marine Corps
testified that he thought that Oswald had a persecution complex which he strove
to maintain--had you ever thought of it in that way?
Mr. PAINE. Well, he was certainly--I wanted to give him some sense of
letting him participate in some sense of being effective to change the world and
to let him be a little more generous in his thinking toward his enemies--his
employers by suggesting that they weren't so fully in control of the social
situation as he made out, and he certainly resisted all efforts on my part to
think in a more generous and active way toward people toward whom he felt
bitter. In other words, he had no inclination or tendency to try to get out of
that mood--I don't remember now any illogical way he would have maintained that
attitude.
I suppose, though, he just had to fight so hard, or fighting is about the
only way he would or could get it out. He perhaps never had any experience of
relieving the feeling of hate or bitterness through being kind to someone, so
you just wouldn't imagine he would think that that was just pious or just
talking to suggest that that was a way out of that feeling.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever have the feeling that he had a considerable
degree of hostility toward the society in general, toward our particular
society?
Mr. PAINE. Yes; he had unreasonable and unrealistic and pervasive
feelings.
Mr. LIEBELER. In that it affected his attitude toward almost everything?
Mr. PAINE Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever discuss with you his personal relations with
his wife?
Mr. PAINE. No; he did not--he never spoke of girls at all. I thought he
was very proper.
Mr. LIEBELER. What was that?
Mr. PAINE. Well, this is the way I supposed he was. I knew that he didn't
smoke or drink and it seemed inconsistent with a libertine attitude toward
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women
or even a sensual enjoyment of women would be a form of life that would be
contradictory to his ethics.
Mr.
LIEBELER. You had no idea that he had been engaged in the Fair Play for
Mr. PAINE. No; I did not.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever talk to Ruth about Oswald's employment
situation in
Mr. PAINE. Not that I can recall--no. I think I asked her what kind of a
job he had found, and that was the extent of it.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did she tell you he had found?
Mr. PAINE. She said he had found the same kind of work he left here--the
engraving business--or something like that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember Ruth ever mentioning that Oswald had said
that he had gotten fired from his job in
Mr. PAINE. No; I don't remember her mentioning that.
Mr. LIEBELER. I don't think I have any more questions. Thank you very
much for coming.
Mr. PAINE. All right.
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