HENCHCLIFFE VOLUME VI

TESTIMONY OF MARGARET M. HENCHLIFFE

The testimony of Margaret M. Henchliffe. was taken at 2 p.m., on March 21, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. SPECTER. Miss Henchliffe, the purpose of our asking you to come in today is in connection with the investigation being conducted by the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. The Commission has not written to you because, we have learned from Mrs. Doris Nelson in the deposition

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taken yesterday that you have some information of value to provide to us so that the regular procedure has not been followed of sending you a copy of the Executive order or of the resolution concerning the procedures of the taking of testimony.

Permit me to make those documents available to you. (Handed instruments to the Witness Henchliffe.)

Let me say that since yesterday I have contacted Mr. J. Lee Rankin, General Counsel, in Washington and he has authorized the taking of this deposition by letter, which I received today, so that it has been authorized, and the real question I have with you is whether it is all right with you to provide us with the information you have today, as opposed to sometime next week after you have had the 3 days' notice which you are entitled to if you want it?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. It is all right with me.

Mr. SPECTER. Is it all right with you to proceed and have your deposition taken today ?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you shall give before this Commission as it is holding deposition proceedings now will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you state your full name, please?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Margaret M. Henchliffe.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your occupation or profession?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. I am a nurse, registered nurse.

Mr. SPECTER. And where are you employed?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Parkland Memorial Hospital.

Mr. SPECTER. And where were you employed on November 22, 1963?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Parkland Memorial Hospital.

Mr. SPECTER. And were you notified on that date that the President was on his way to the hospital?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. No, sir; I didn't know it at the time until later.

Mr. SPECTER. When did you first learn about it. if at all?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. I found out who it was when I went out to get blood.

Mr. SPECTER. About what time of day was that?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Well, I guess it was about 2 ,minutes after he came in.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe him at some place in the hospital?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. I was working with him in the emergency room.

Mr. SPECTER. Had he arrived in the emergency room when you first arrived at the site of the emergency room?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Do what?

Mr. SPECTER. Were you in the area of the emergency room before he came there?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see him actually wheeled into the emergency room?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Yes; in fact, I helped wheel him on into trauma room 1.

Mr. SPECTER. And, where was he when you first saw him?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. He was between trauma rooms 1 and 2.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see him when he was brought into the hospital itself?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. At the emergency entrance---no. It was after he came into the emergency room.

Mr. SPECTER. He came into the emergency area?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And then you saw him and helped wheel him, you say, into the emergency room No. 1?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And who else was present at the time you first saw him when he had just come into the emergency area?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Let me see, I think Dr. Carrico was there-he was there very shortly after--afterwards.

Mr. SPECTER. He was there when you arrived? Or arrived shortly after you did?

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Miss HENCHLIFFE. Well, actually I went in ahead of the cart with him and I was the first one in with him, and just in a minute, or seconds, Dr. Carrico came in.

Mr. SPECTER. And what other doctors arrived, if any?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Oh, gee. Let's see---there was Dr. Baxter, Dr. Perry, and you want all of them that were in the room?

Mr. SPECTER. If you can remember them.

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Dr. Kemp Clark, Dr. Jenkins, Dr. Peters, Dr. Crenshaw, and there was some woman anesthetist that I don't know which--who it was.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe to be the President's condition when you first saw him?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. I saw him breathe a couple of times and that was all.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see any wound anywhere on his body?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Yes; he was very bloody, his head was very bloody when I saw him at the time.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever see any wound in any other part of his body?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. When I first saw him---except his head.

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Yes; in the neck.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe it, please?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. It was just a little hole in the middle of his neck.

Mr. SPECTER. About how big a hole was it?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. About as big around as the end of my little finger.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever had any experience with bullet holes?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And what did that appear to you to be?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. An entrance bullet hole it looked to me like.

Mr. SPECTER. Could it have been an exit bullet hole?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. I have never seen an exit bullet hole I don't remember seeing one that looked like that.

Mr. SPECTER. What were the characteristics of the hole?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. It was just a little round---just a little round hole, just a little round jagged-looking---jagged a little bit.

Mr. SPECTER. What experience have you had in observing bullet holes, Miss Henchliffe?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Well, we take care of a lot of bullet wounds down there--I don't know how many a year.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever had any formal studies of bullet holes?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Oh, no; nothing except my experience in the emergency room.

Mr. SPECTER. In what?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. In the emergency room is all.

Mr. SPECTER. What was done to the President after he arrived at the emergency room?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Well the first thing, his endotracheal tube was inserted.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you present all the time he was in the emergency room?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Except when I left out to get blood.

Mr. SPECTER. And how long were you gone?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Oh, about 3 minutes or so--3 or 4 minutes.

Mr. SPECTER. And were you present when he was pronounced dead?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. What was done with the President's body after he was pronounced to be dead?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Well, after the last rites were said, we then undressed him and cleaned him up and wrapped him up in sheets until the coffin was brought.

Mr. SPECTER. And after the coffin arrived, what was done with his body?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. He was placed in the coffin.

Mr. SPECTER. What had he been on up until that time?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. An emergency room cart.

Mr. SPECTER. And is that also described as a stretcher?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. A stretcher---yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you describe what this stretcher looked like?

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Miss HENCHLIFFE. Well, how do you describe a stretcher---it's just a long----

Mr. SPECTER. Made of metal?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Yes; it's made of metal.

Mr. SPECTER. On roller wheels?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Roller wheels with a rubber mattress on it, rubber covered mattress on it.

Mr. SPECTER. And after he was taken off of the stretcher, what was left on the stretcher at that time?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Just some sheets and I guess there were some dirty syringes and needles laying on it that we picked up.

Mr. SPECTER. That you picked up---where were they placed?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. We placed them on a tray and took them all out to the utility room.

Mr. SPECTER. How many sheets were there on the stretcher?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Well, I am really not sure---there was probably about two or three.

Mr. SPECTER. And in what position were they all on the stretcher after President Kennedy's body was removed

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Well, one was covering the whole mattress and there was one or two that we had left just under his head, that had been placed under his head.

Mr. SPECTER. And what was done with those sheets?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. They were all rolled up and taken to the dirty linen hamper.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know who took those to the dirty linen hamper?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. To the best of my knowledge, the orderly.

Mr. SPECTER. And who was he?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. David Sanders---is that his name?

Mr. SPECTER. And what was done with the stretcher?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. It was rolled into the room across the hall.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you actually see the stretcher that President Kennedy was on rolled into the room across the hall?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And into which room was it rolled?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Room 2.

Mr. SPECTER. What was that?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Room 2.

Mr. SPECTER. Emergency room No. 2?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And, when it was rolled into emergency room 2, were the sheets still all on, or were they off at that time?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. I believe they were off.

Mr. SPECTER. Is it possible that the stretcher that Mr. Kennedy was on was rolled with the sheets on it down into the area near the elevator?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you sure of that?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. I am positive of that.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you anything to add that you think might be helpful to the Commission?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. No, sir; I don't think of anything.

Mr. SPECTER. Did I talk to you about the purpose of the Commission and the same questions that I have been asking and the answers that you have been giving for a few minutes before the Court reporter came in to take this down in shorthand?

Miss HENCHLIFFE.

Mr. SPECTER. And did you give me the same information at that time?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. To the best of my ability.

Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much for coming.

(At this point the witness, Henchliffe, was thereupon excused from the deposing room.)

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(In approximately 3 minutes thereafter the witness returned to the deposing room and the deposition continued as follows:)

Mr. SPECTER. Let me ask you a couple of questions more, Miss Henchliffe, one other question, or two, before you go.

Was the wound on the front of the neck surrounded by any blood?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there any blood at all in that area?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. What was there about the wound, if you recall anything special, which gave you the impression it was an entrance wound?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Well, it was just a small wound and wasn't jagged like most of the exit bullet wounds that I have seen.

Mr. SPECTER. If there was a high-powered rifle, or a high-powered rifle was going at a fast speed, as fast as 2,000 feet per second, which encountered only soft tissue in the body, would you have sufficient knowledge to know whether or not the appearance of that hole would be consistent with an exit wound?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Well, from some information I received in talking to someone about guns later on, they said that this is possible. But you have a small exit wound---you could have a small exit wound.

Mr. SPECTER. Under what circumstances?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. As you described---a very fast bullet that didn't hit anything but soft tissue going through.

Mr. SPECTER. And do you have any other source of information or basis for having an opinion whether it was an entrance wound or an exit wound other than that source of information you just described, plus your general experience here at Parkland as a nurse?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. How long have you been at Parkland as a nurse?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Well, I have had emergency room experience for about 5 years here and a couple of years at Baylor Hospital.

Mr. SPECTER. And is that the total sum of your experience?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. In the emergency room. what other experience have you had besides emergency room experience.

Miss HENCLIFFE. Well, in the operating room here

Mr. SPECTER. How long have you had operating room experience here?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. 3 years.

Mr. SPECTER. How long have you been a registered nurse altogether?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. 12 years--almost 12 years.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is the source of information about the appearance of an exit wound from a high-powered gun which you have just described?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. I don't remember who I was talking to now. I was just talking to someone one day about gunshots and after this-report came out that said that any high-powered gun that this could happen.

Mr. SPECTER. That it could be an exit wound which looked very much like an entrance wound with the missile striking nothing but soft tissue?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything else to add?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. No.

Mr. SPECTER Thank you very much.

Miss HENCHLIFFE. All right.

NELSON, DORIS Volume VI 147-143

TESTIMONY OF DORIS MAE NELSON

The testimony of Doris Mae Nelson was taken on March 20, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. SPECTER. Mrs. Nelson, this is Miss Oliver, the court reporter, and will you raise your right hand and take the oath?

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Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give in this proceeding will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mrs. NELSON. I do.

Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that Mrs. Doris Nelson is appearing to testify in this deposition proceeding conducted by the President's Commission on -the Assassination of President Kennedy to provide whatever facts, if any, she may know concerning the treatment received by President Kennedy and Governor Connally at Parkland Memorial Hospital on November 22, 1963.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you state your full name for the record, please?

Mrs. NELSON. Doris Mae Nelson. Do you want my maiden name?

Mr. SPECTER. Fine, yes; what is your maiden name?

Mrs. NELSON. Morris, M--o-r-r-i-s [spelling].

Mr. SPECTER. Mrs. Nelson, have you had an opportunity to view the joint resolution of the 88th Congress and the Executive order which established the President's Commission?

Mrs. NELSON. Yes; I read it yesterday.

Mr. SPECTER. And have you had an opportunity to view the resolution of the President's Commission covering questioning of witnesses by members of the Commission staff?

Mrs. NELSON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And are you willing to be questioned today concerning this matter, even though you have not had 3 days' notice?

Mrs. NELSON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Therefore waiving the right which you have, a 3 days' notice under the resolution?

Mrs. NELSON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your occupation or profession?

Mrs. NELSON. I am a registered nurse, supervisor of the emergency room at Parkland Memorial Hospital.

Mr. SPECTER. And how long have you been so occupied?

Mrs. NELSON. A year and 6 months as supervisor of the emergency room.

Mr. SPECTER. What were your duties in a general way on November 22, 1963?

Mrs. NELSON. I was primarily responsible for assigning personnel in the treatment of the injured patients and carrying out security measures with the Secret Service.

Mr. SPECTER. What notification, if any, did 'you receive on that date concerning injuries to President Kennedy?

Mrs. NELSON. I received a phone call approximately 3 to 5 minutes prior to their arrival, from the telephone operator, stating that the President had been shot and was being brought to the emergency room.

Mr. SPECTER. What action after that did you take in preparing for the President's arrival?

Mrs. NELSON. I immediately took the surgical resident into trauma room No.1, notified him of the incident, and asked the also told the head nurse that the President had been shot and was being brought to the emergency room.

Then, I went into trauma room 2, after the head nurse had told me that trauma room 1 was set up for any emergency, and proceeded to open a bottle of intravenous fluid and set it up for an emergency situation.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you know at that time that anyone else had been injured?

Mrs. NELSON. No; we were not notified as to anyone else being injured.

Mr. SPECTER. What occurred with respect to the arrival of any injured party at Parkland Memorial Hospital thereafter?

Mrs. NELSON. As I walked out-of trauma room No. 2 I heard someone calling for stretchers and an orderly ran back into the area and got a stretcher and ran out of the door, and a few seconds later Governor Connally, who at that time I did not. know who it was but recognized him as not being the President, arrived and I directed them into trauma room 2.

Mr. SPECTER. Did the orderly take out one stretcher, or was more than one Stretcher taken out?

Mrs. NELSON. I do not know exactly how many stretchers were taken out at the time because I was not out at that area.

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Mr. SPECTER. Did another stretcher come into the area?

Mrs. NELSON. Yes; immediately behind the Governor another stretcher was brought back into the emergency room and on this stretcher was President Kennedy.

Mr. SPECTER How were you able to identify President Kennedy?

Mrs. NELSON. Well, I could look and see him and tell that it was him.

Mr. SPECTER. What part did you see?

Mrs. NELSON. The---mainly his head.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there any coat covering his face?

Mrs. NELSON. There was a coat thrown across the top of him, not completely covering his face, and Mrs. Kennedy---do you want me to tell about Mrs. Kennedy and the flowers?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes; continue. Yes; in answering the questions, Mrs. Nelson, feel perfectly free to make as full an answer to the question--I hesitate to have you stop, so that the record we make will appear continuous and everything may be recorded fully for our record purposes.

Mrs. NELSON. Mrs. Kennedy was walking beside the stretcher and the roses that she had been given at the airport were lying on top of the President and her hat was also lying on top of the President as he was brought into the emergency room.

Mr. SPECTER. Where was he then taken?

Mrs. NELSON. He was immediately taken into trauma room 1.

Mr. SPECTER. And who, if anyone, was present at that time to attend him in a medical way?

Mrs. NELSON. Dr. Carrico, a surgical resident was there at the time that he was brought in, and Dr. Perry, an associate professor of surgery arrived shortly thereafter, and several doctors arrived, Dr. Baxter, associate professor of surgery, Dr. Kemp Clark, professor of neurosurgery and chairman of the department; Dr. Bashour--

Mr. SPECTER Spell, please.

Mrs. NELSON. B-a-s-h-o-u-r (spelling), chairman of the Department of Cardiology, and several other doctors who I cannot recall all the names at the present time.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you present inside of the emergency room where President Kennedy was taken?

Mrs. NELSON. When what?

Mr. SPECTER. Were you in there at the time they were treating him, caring for him at any time?

Mrs. NELSON. On one occasion I went into the room and this was mainly to ask Mrs. Kennedy if she had rather wait out in the hallway rather than in the room where they were treating the President, and I was told by the Secret Service agent that she may stay in there if she wished.

Mr. SPECTER. Is there any table, or was there any table in the emergency room to which President Kennedy was taken that he could be placed on from the stretcher?

Mrs. NELSON. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Is it the normal situation to have no table present in the emergency room?

Mrs. NELSON. The only one there is in case an ambulance should bring a patient in, but if a patient comes in the emergency room on a stretcher, then the stretcher that is in there is removed. Then the patient remains on the same stretcher that he comes into the emergency room on.

Mr. SPECTER. And was there a stretcher in the emergency room at the time President Kennedy was taken in on a second stretcher?

Mrs. NELSON. It was taken out when they wheeled it in.

Mr. SPECTER. Were there any sheets on the stretcher that President Kennedy was on?

Mrs. NELSON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. After President Kennedy was taken off of the stretcher, did you have occasion to observe that stretcher?

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Mrs. NELSON. Yes; the stretcher was stripped by the nursing personnel working in the room and the stretcher was moved across from trauma room 1 to trauma room 2 in order to get the stretcher out of the room.

Mr. SPECTER. What personnel stripped the stretcher?

Mrs. NELSON. Margaret Henchliffe, H-e-n-c-h-l-i-f-f-e [spelling], and Diana Bowron, D-i-a-n-a B-o-w-r-o-n [spelling].

Mr. SPECTER. Did you actually observe Diana Bowron or Margaret Henchliffe strip the stretcher?

Mrs. NELSON. No; I did not. This was the report that I received afterwards

Mr. SPECTER. From whom did you receive that report?

Mrs. NELSON. From these two nurses.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see the stretcher after it was stripped in the emergency room to which President Kennedy was taken?

Mrs. NELSON. No, I saw it after it was wheeled from trauma room 1 to trauma room 2, because I was standing there at the doorway between the two rooms with the Secret Service Police.

Mr. SPECTER. But it was actually in trauma room 1?

Mrs. NELSON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. As it was being wheeled out to trauma room 2 and at the time it was being wheeled out, was there any sheet on it at all---

Mrs. NELSON. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Rolled up on it in any way at all?

Mrs. NELSON. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see where the stretcher was then placed?

Mrs. NELSON. Yes, it was put into trauma room 2.

Mr. SPECTER. Where was President Kennedy's body at that time?

Mrs. NELSON. It was in---it had been placed in a casket in trauma room 1.

Mr. SPECTER. And was the casket on any sort of an object or was it on the floor or what?

Mrs. NELSON. It was on a form of roller---type table.

Mr. SPECTER. And did---do you know what President Kennedy's body was in, if anything, at that time?

Mrs. NELSON. Yes, one of the nurses, Miss Hutton, came out and said that the President was having extensive bleeding from the head and they had wrapped four sheets around it but it was still oozing through, so I sent her to the second floor to obtain a mattress cover, a plastic mattress cover, to put in the casket prior to putting his body in the casket, so the mattress cover was placed in the casket and I did not see this happen, but this is how it was explained to me by the nurse, and the plastic was placed on the mattress cover and the cover was around the mattress.

Mr. SPECTER. Which nurse explained that to you?

Mrs. NELSON. Miss Bowron and Miss Henchliffe.

Mr. SPECTER. And what was done with the sheets which had been used to absorb the blood from the President's body?

Mrs. NELSON. Well, there were approximately four sheets wrapped around him and the remaining sheets that were on the stretcher were pulled up and thrown in the linen hamper, according to Miss Bowron and Miss Henchliffe.

Mr. SPECTER. And where is that linen hamper located?

Mrs. NELSON. That linen hamper is located in the utility room area of the emergency room, which is just outside of the trauma room area.

Mr. SPECTER. And what floor is that on?

Mrs. NELSON. On the ground floor of the hospital.

Mr. SPECTER. What was done with Governor Connally?

Mrs. NELSON. Governor Connally was in the emergency room for a very short period, approximately 15 to 20 minutes, at which time he had chest tubes inserted, intravenous fluid started, anesthesia or oxygen given to him, and he was taken immediately from the emergency room to the operating room accompanied by several doctors.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see him inside trauma room No. 2?

Mrs. NELSON. Yes; I did

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Mr. SPECTER. And did you observe him when he was taken out of trauma room No. 2?

Mrs. NELSON. Yes, I saw him when he went upstairs to the operating room.

Mr. SPECTER. And how did he get upstairs to the operating room?

Mrs. NELSON. On a stretcher carried by several of the doctors. Miss Standridge went in front and opened doorways and went to the elevator. I could not see her at the elevator but this is what she told me.

Mr. SPECTER. How far could you see her?

Mrs. NELSON. Oh, approximately 30 feet.

Mr. SPECTER. And who is Miss Standridge?

Mrs. NELSON. Head nurse in the emergency room.

Mr. SPECTER. What is her first name?

Mrs. NELSON. Jeanette.

Mr. SPECTER. You say the stretcher was carried?

Mrs. NELSON. Well, it was wheeled.

Mr. SPECTER. And what does the stretcher look like that Governor Connally was on?

Mrs. NELSON. Well, there are no specific details, it's an average type of movable four-wheel stretcher, made out of metal, with a plastic mattress on the stretcher. It has an elevation between---on the sides, so that the---I don't know how to explain exactly.

Mr. SPECTER. A bumper-type effect?

Mrs. NELSON. It has a bumper on the side.

Mr. SPECTER. Is there a tray underneath the place where the body was resting?

Mrs. NELSON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And is that the same general description of a stretcher that President Kennedy was brought in on?

Mrs. NELSON. Yes; they were the same type.

Mr. SPECTER. Mrs. Nelson, I'm going to show you a four-page statement which is marked "Activities of Doris Nelson, R.N., beginning 12 noon, Friday, November 22, 1963," after I ask that it be marked as an exhibit in connection with this deposition.

(Reporter marked the instrument referred to as Nelson Exhibit No. 1.)

Mr. SPECTER. Is this a photostatic copy of the statement which you gave to Mr. Jack Price, the administrator of the hospital, concerning your activities on November 22, 1963, as they pertain to this matter?

Mrs. NELSON. Yes; it is.

Mr. SPECTER. And are the facts set forth heroin true and correct to the best of your knowledge, information and belief?

Mrs. NELSON. Yes; they are.

Mr. SPECTER. Did I meet with you for a few moments before we started this deposition and explain the purpose of the proceeding?

Mrs. NELSON. Yes; you did.

Mr. SPECTER. Did I ask you the same questions which we have discussed here during the course of my questioning before the court reporter?

Mrs. NELSON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much for providing this deposition to us.

Mrs. NELSON. You are quite welcome.

Mr. SPECTER. Off the record.

(Discussion off the record between Mr. Specter and the witness, Mrs. Doris Nelson.)

Mr. SPECTER. Back on the record, just a minute.

Mrs. Nelson, I will ask you if you would sign the end of this statement here, that it is your statement?

Mrs. NELSON. (Signed statement referred to.)

Mr. SPECTER. And are you willing to waive a requirement, if it is any formal requirement, as to the signing of this deposition?

Mrs. NELSON. Yes; I am.

Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much.

147

NURSE ROSS

TESTIMONY OF MRS. HENRIETTA M. ROSS

The testimony of Mrs. Henrietta M. Ross was taken at 6:50 p.m., on March 25, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that the oath has been administered to Mrs. Henrietta Ross who is appearing here in response to a letter request to testify as part of the inquiry of the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy, which involves the, treatment of President Kennedy and Governor Connally at Parkland Hospital.

Mrs. Ross has been asked to appear and testify concerning her knowledge about the stretcher cart on which Governor Connally was transported while in the hospital.

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Mr. SPECTER. With that preliminary statement, I'll ask you, Mrs. Ross, to state your full name?

Mrs. ROSS. Mrs. Henrietta Magnolia Ross.

Mr. SPECTER. And where are you employed?

Mrs. ROSS. Parkland Hospital.

Mr. SPECTER. In what capacity?

Mrs. ROSS. Operating room technician.

Mr. SPECTER. And what were your duties on November 22, 1963?

Mrs. ROSS. Stand in the hall and guard the. hall and not let anyone pass by I did not know.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to see Governor Connally?

Mrs. ROSS. Yes; as he came down the hall on the cart.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see him as he left the elevator?

Mrs. ROSS. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER About what time was that?

Mrs. ROSS. About--it should have been after 1 o'clock because I was supposed to go to a class that day and I couldn't go.

Mr. SPECTER. Who was with him at the time, if anyone?

Mrs. ROSS. There were doctors all around in the corridor and I don't know exactly who--I only remember one person and that was Dr. Gustafason, because he gave me his coat to hang up as he was passing.

Mr. SPECTER. Was Miss Jane Wester there?

Mrs. ROSS. She was up there; yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And what did you see them do with the Governor, if anything?

Mrs. ROSS. They pushed him down in front of room 5 and onto the operating table and put him on it.

Mr. SPECTER. What were they pushing him on?

Mrs. ROSS. On a stretcher from the emergency room.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe the stretcher for me, please, starting with what was it made of ?

Mrs. ROSS. It has four legs, four wheels and has a little rubber sheet on it. I mean, a rubber mattress, and the length of the normal body is the length of the cart.

Mr. SPECTER. Is it made of metal?

Mrs. ROSS. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And what was done with the stretcher cart after they rolled Governor Connally off of it?

Mrs. ROSS. It was pushed back up toward room 3.

Mr. SPECTER. Is that toward the elevator?

Mrs. ROSS. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And by whom was it pushed?

Mrs. ROSS. Jimison.

Mr. SPECTER. R. J. Jimison?

Mrs. Ross. I don't know Jimison's initials, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. He's one of the orderlies there?

Mrs. ROSS. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And where did you last see the stretcher?

Mrs. ROSS. In front of room 3.

Mr. SPECTER. Did Jimison have it in his control at that time?

Mrs. ROSS. The last time I looked he was pushing it; yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you talked to the Secret Service about this?

Mrs. ROSS. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. On how many occasions?

Mrs. ROSS. One time.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you talk to anyone else from the Federal Government about this matter?

Mrs. ROSS. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add which you think might be helpful to the Commission?

Mrs. ROSS. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much for appearing.

Mrs. ROSS. Thank you.

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NURSE STANDRIDGE VOLUME VI

TESTIMONY OF RUTH JEANETTE STANDRIDGE

The testimony of Ruth Jeanette Standridge was taken at 1:35 p.m., on March 21, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. SPECTER. Miss Standridge, would you stand up and raise your right hand, please?

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you give before the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy in these deposition proceedings will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Miss STANDRIDGE. I do.

Mr. SPECTER. All right, you may be seated.

Miss Standridge, the President's Commission is investigating the assassination of President Kennedy and all the facts relating thereto, and we have asked you to appear to have your deposition taken in connection with the treatment which was given to Governor Connally in Parkland Memorial Hospital and to President Kennedy in Parkland Memorial Hospital, and all facts relating to that. Have you received a letter from the President's Commission requesting that you appear?

Miss STANDRIDGE. Well, there was a letter came and I was out of town and they opened it, the supervisor opened it and she had the letter, but I haven't seen it yet.

Mr. SPECTER. You haven't seen it yet ?

Miss STANDRIDGE. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, let me show you the enclosures which were in the letter so that you may be familiar with them. Here is a copy of the White House Executive order establishing the Commission, and here is a resolution establishing the rules for taking testimony. Permit me to explain to you that the rules require that we give you 3 days' notice, so that if you would request it now, we could delay taking your deposition until sometime next week, if you would prefer, or if you are agreeable to have us take your deposition, we can go right ahead and take it now.

Miss STANDRIDGE. (reading instruments referred to). Thank you, you can just go ahead if you want to---it's all right with me.

Mr. SPECTER It doesn't make any difference to you whether it is today or next week?

Miss STANDRIDGE. No; it does not.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you state your full name, please?

Miss STANDRIDGE. Ruth Jeanette Standridge.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your occupation or profession?

Mr. SPECTER. At what hospital?

Miss STANDRIDGE. Parkland Memorial Hospital.

Mr. SPECTER. What were your duties on November 22, 1963?

Miss STANDRIDGE. I was working as charge nurse in the major surgery area in Parkland Memorial Hospital.

Mr. SPECTER. And did you receive notification that the President of the United States was en route to Parkland Hospital?

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Miss STANDRIDGE. Yes; by my supervisor, Doris Nelson.

Mr. SPECTER And st about what time did you receive that notification?

Miss STANDRIDGE. About 12:30, I guess.

Mr. SPECTER. And what action, if any, did you take as a result of getting that notice?

Miss STANDRIDGE. Immediately went to trauma room 2 and I was in trauma room 2 and began to set up Renger liquid and check the suction machine.

Mr. SPECTER. And was trauma room 1 set up?

Miss STANDRIDGE. Mrs. Nelson was setting trauma room 1 up at the same time.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you present when one or more of the victims arrived?

Miss STANDRIDGE. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And who was it arrived?

Miss STANDRIDGE. Governor Connally was brought into trauma room 2 first.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe President Kennedy arrive?

Miss STANDRIDGE. No; I was busy with the Governor..

Mr. SPECTER. And what did you do when the Governor arrived ?

Miss STANDRIDGE. Well, we began to take his clothing off and the orderlies continued that and the doctors and I started handing the syringe and medicine and things necessary to start the IV.

Mr. SPECTER. And, what do you mean by "IV"?

Miss STANDRIDGE. Intravenous fluids.

Mr. SPECTER And did you assist in the taking off of Governor Connally's clothes?

Miss STANDRIDGE. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER What, if anything, did you notice with respect to the Governor's shirt?

Miss STANDRIDGE. There was blood on the front of it.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there any bullet hole on the front of the shirt?

Miss STANDRIDGE. Not that I can say for sure.

Mr. SPECTER. There could have been or could not have been, but you just don't know?

Miss STANDRIDGE. There could have been, but mostly it was just blood that we noticed.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you notice anything on the coat?

Miss STANDRIDGE. There was blood on the coat.

Mr. SPECTER. Was he wearing his suit coat?

Miss STANDRIDGE. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you notice whether or not there was any bullet hole-in the coat?

Miss STANDRIDGE. I didn't see one.

Mr. SPECTER. What was Governor Connally's position when you first saw him?

Miss STANDRIDGE. He was laying on his back on the cart.

Mr. SPECTER. And what kind of cart was he lying on?

Miss STANDRIDGE. The emergency cart on rollers.

Mr. SPECTER. What is that emergency cart constructed of?

Miss STANDRIDGE. Well, it's just a thin fixture with rubber padding on the top, and it is used to transfer the patients to the wards, and to X-ray and to surgery.

Mr. SPECTER. Is it made of metal?

Miss STANDRIDGE. Of metal with four big tires on it.

Mr. SPECTER. With four roller tires on it?

Miss STANDRIDGE. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And what was on the cart underneath the Governor?

Miss STANDRIDGE. Well, there was just a sheet was all we had on there.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there anything on top of the Governor?

Miss STANDRIDGE. Well, we put a sheet, when we unclothed him.

Mr. SPECTER Was he completely undressed?

Miss STANDRIDGE. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And was he lying on top of that cart while he was being undressed?

Miss STANDRIDGE. Yes.

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Mr. SPECTER. And who assisted you in the process of undressing him?

Miss STANDRIDGE. Well, David Sanders was helping, he was my orderly that was in the room, and also an aid, Rosa Majors, and she took the money out of his pants, and Dr. Fueishier.

Mr. SPECTER. How do you spell that?

Miss STANDRIDGE. F-u-e-i-s-h-i-e-r (spelling), and Dr. Duke, and there was a couple of other doctors--I don't remember who they were, but they were up at the head, Dr. Fueishier and Dr. Duke, and Dr. Shaw came in before they got the Governor's clothes off.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you notice any object in Governor Connally's clothing?

Miss STANDRIDGE. Not unusual.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you notice a bullet, specifically?

Miss STANDRIDGE. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you hear the sound of anything fall?

Miss STANDRIDGE. I didn't.

Mr. SPECTER Were there other noises going on, in the room at that time?

Miss STANDRIDGE. Yes, there were.

Mr. SPECTER. Was Governor Connally completely undressed in the emergency room?

Miss STANDRIDGE. I believe so, to the best of my knowledge he was, I think everything was taken off.

Mr. SPECTER. And what was done with Governor Connally following the completion of his being undressed?

Miss STANDRIDGE. He was immediately carried to the elevator---emergency elevator.

Mr. SPECTER. And in what way was he carried to the emergency elevator?

Miss STANDRIDGE. On the emergency cart that he came into emergency room on.

Mr. SPECTER. Is that also describable as a stretcher?

Miss STANDRIDGE. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. You say "Yes"?

Miss STANDRIDGE. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you assist in pushing him into the elevator?

Miss STANDRIDGE. I started and then there was enough doctors pushing him and I went back to get his clothing and by the time I came back up again---I went just as quickly as I could walk back to trauma room 2 and got the clothing, I ran back up to catch him, and the elevator was closing with him on it.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you actually see Governor Connally being wheeled into the elevator?

Miss STANDRIDGE. No, the door was closing as I got back around. I started with him down the hall and then before I got back, they had put him into the elevator.

Mr. SPECTER. Who assisted in pushing him out of the emergency room and down the hall---is it a little ways?

Miss STANDRIDGE. Well, it's through the OB and GYN section.

Mr. SPECTER. Is that "Obstetrics and Gynecology" section?

Miss STANDRIDGE. Yes; you go through that section to get to this elevator from the major surgery section.

Mr. SPECTER. How far did you help push him from the major surgery section?

Miss STANDRIDGE. About from the door that went into OBGN.

Mr. SPECTER. About how far is that?

Miss STANDRIDGE. Oh, about 20 feet, I guess, and they had about another 20 feet to go before they turned to the left to get to the elevator, which is about 6 or 8 feet.

Mr. SPECTER. So, you left him and went back to the emergency room to get his clothes, and when you came back, did you see any part of the stretcher?

Miss STANDRIDGE. Well, I could just see---I could see the stretchers---yes; and the doors and everybody in the elevator and the door was closed in.

Mr. SPECTER. Could you see Governor Connally on the stretcher?

Miss STANDRIDGE. No, not---I think his feet were at the end---I could just see feet---I believe the feet were there at that door, you know.

Mr. SPECTER. And, you saw the same doctors around the stretcher who were pushing him when you last saw him?

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Miss STANDRIDGE. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you sure that was Governor Connally?

Miss STANDRIDGE. No, that's what I said---I. Just saw his feet, which I assumed it was--it was the same doctors.

Mr. SPECTER. About how long elapsed from the time you stopped pushing

the stretcher until the time you got there to look and see just his feet?

Miss STANDRIDGE. Just a second, I mean, just a few seconds.

Mr. SPECTER. You went back and got his clothes?

Miss STANDRIDGE. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you do with those clothes?

Miss STANDRIDGE. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know what he did with it?

Miss STANDRIDGE. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you heard what he did with it?

Miss STANDRIDGE. I've heard that it got lost and they found it in Representative Gonzales' office in a closet.

Mr. SPECTER. And is he a Texas Representative?

Miss STANDRIDGE. I believe so.

Mr. SPECTER. In his office closet where?

Miss STANDRIDGE. In Washington, D.C.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you. limited in anyway from entering into the operating room area?

Miss STANDRIDGE. We are limited, but there is a place where the spots are painted on the floor that is is legal for us to go through into the hallway into the nurses' station.

Mr. SPECTER. You can go around in part of the operating room area?

Miss STANDRIDGE. Isn't into the premises---it's just in the hallway into the nurses' station.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is the reason for limiting you from going beyond that into the operating room area?

Miss STANDRIDGE. Well, we are not considered--we would be contaminating.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, is there some problem about flammable gases up there?

Miss STANDRIDGE. Anesthesia equipment, that's right, and these spots are painted there, and if you don't have the proper shoes on, they will be a conductor, you know, and these spots are there for that area.

Mr. SPECTER. Was Governor Connally removed from the stretcher at anytime while he was in the emergency room?

Miss STANDRIDGE. No; he wasn't. He never went to X-ray or he wasn't taken off at all.

Mr. SPECTER. Does the elevator that the stretcher was pushed into go only to the operating room?

Miss STANDRIDGE. No; it stops on first floor and also goes up to delivery-up to the delivery room on third floor.

Mr. SPECTER What is on first floor?

Miss STANDRIDGE.. No patients--only classrooms and administrative offices----business offices.

Mr. SPECTER. What is on third floor?

Miss STANDRIDGE. The delivery room---it opens up into the delivery room and then the post mortem wards.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything you would like to add which you think might be helpful to us in any way?

Miss STANDRIDGE. Well, not that I can think of other than that I have already stated.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see President Kennedy's stretcher at any time?

Miss STANDRIDGE. Yes; I was in the room---I took the mop in. The orderlies

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mopped the floor and we cleaned the wall, the blood off of the walls and so forth, to get it presentable before Mrs. Kennedy came back in.

Mr. SPECTER. And was President Kennedy in the room at that time?

Miss STANDRIDGE. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see him there?

Miss STANDRIDGE. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER And you identified him from what you knew he looked like?

Miss STANDRIDGE. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And how was he clothed at that time?

Miss STANDRIDGE.. Well, as far as from his waist up---was all that was uncovered and they were trying to protect his head with a sheet---it was wrapped around his head.

Mr. SPECTER. What clothing did he have on from the waist down?

Miss STANDRIDGE. It was just a sheet cover---I don't know of anything under the cover, whether there was or not. I assumed he was all unclothed, which we do routinely.

Mr. SPECTER. He was all unclothed?

Miss STANDRIDGE. I said I assumed he was---I don't know.

Mr. SPECTER. What did he have from the waist up?

Miss STANDRIDGE. Nothing.

Mr. SPECTER. What was he on at that time?

Miss. STANDRIDGE. A stretcher cart.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see 'what happened to that stretcher afterward?

Miss STANDRIDGE. I didn't notice. They moved it from the room.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know what happened to the sheets that were on the President's stretcher?

Miss STANDRIDGE. No; I don't.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you and I meet previously before I started to take the deposition here today and talk about the procedures for the investigation by the Warren Commission?

Miss STANDRIDGE. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And have you and I been discussing here, with me asking questions and you making answers all the things which we talked about before the court reporter came in?

Miss STANDRIDGE. I believe so.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever talked to any other representative of the Federal Government?

Miss STANDRIDGE. The Secret Service---yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And did you talk with them once or more than once?

Miss STANDRIDGE. Well, I talked with them one time in Mr. Wright's office and another time just briefly---he came to see the layout of the emergency room.

Mr. SPECTER. Whose office Mr. Wright?

Miss STANDRIDGE. Personnel manager here.

Mr. SPECTER. What did the Secret Service men ask you about on those occasions?

Miss STANDRIDGE. Well, just the same thing we have gone over today.

Mr. SPECTER. And you talked with the Secret Service man in another part of the hospital on another day, you say?

Miss STANDRIDGE. I think he came back up into the emergency room at that time.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you talk about in the emergency room at that time?

Miss STANDRIDGE. Well, Mrs. Nelson, she showed him the different areas.

Mr. SPECTER. And you identified some of the things?

Miss STANDRIDGE. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever talked with any other representative of the Federal Government?

Miss STANDRIDGE. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Any representative of the State government?

Miss STANDRIDGE. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much. Those are all---those are the only questions I have.

Miss STANDRIDGE. Thank you for that.

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731-2220---64 vol. VI 9

NURSE WESTER

TESTIMONY OF JANE CAROLYN WESTER

The testimony of Jane Carolyn Wester was taken on March 20, 1964, at Park-land Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. SPECTER. Miss Wester, this is Miss Oliver the court reporter and she will take down your testimony here and will you raise your right hand and take the oath?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you will give in this proceeding will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Miss WESTER. I do.

Mr. SPECTER. May the record preliminarily show that the purpose of this proceeding is in connection with the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy to ascertain facts relating to the assassination and all medical treatment obtained by President Kennedy and Governor Connally following their being shot.

The witness at the moment is Miss Jane Wester who has been asked to testify concerning any facts of which she has knowledge concerning treatment of President Kennedy or Governor Connally and the disposition of Governor Connally's clothing and sheet in which he was wrapped at the time the Governor was brought into the operating room at Parkland Memorial Hospital.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you state your full name, for the record, please?

Miss WESTER. Jane Carolyn Wester.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is your residence address, Miss Wester?

Miss WESTER. 1107 Brockbank, Dallas.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you received a letter of notification from the President.'s Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy advising you that I would contact you for the purpose of taking testimony from you in connection

with this proceeding, Miss Wester?

Miss WESTER. Yes; I have.

Mr. SPECTER. And at that time did you receive the copies of the Executive order creating the Commission and the rules and regulations relating to the taking of testimony?

Miss WESTER. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. SPECTER. And are you satisfied to appear here today and answer some questions relating to your participation in the treatment of Governor Connally?

Miss WESTER. Yes, sir; I am.

Mr. SPECTER. And President Kennedy?

Miss WESTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your occupation or profession, please?

Miss WESTER.. I am a registered nurse.

Mr. SPECTER. And at what institution are you employed ?

Miss WESTER. Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas.

Mr. SPECTER. And how long have you been so employed at Parkland Memorial Hospital ?

Miss WESTER. Nine years ---- or 9 1/2.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you outline your duties in a general way as they were back on November 22, 1963?

Miss WESTER. I am assistant supervisor in the operating room, and I assign personnel duties, direct them in their activities.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you receive notice on that date that President Kennedy and Governor Connally were en route to Parkland Memorial Hospital to receive treatment?

Miss WESTER. I was not aware that they were in the hospital.

Mr. SPECTER. When was it first brought to your attention, if at all?

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down there and as soon as the President did arrive in the operating room, would I please call them.

Mr. SPECTER. What was your next connection, if any, with respect to the treatment of either President Kennedy or Governor Connally at Parkland?

Miss WESTER. I received a phone call' from the emergency room asking us to set up for a craniotomy.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is a craniotomy in lay language?

Miss WESTER. That's an exploration of the head.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there any other request made at that time?

Miss WESTER. Yes--well--immediately following, following that I received a call to set up for a thoracotomy, which is an exploration of the chest.

Mr. SPECTER. And were those two set ups made in accordance with the requests you received?

Miss WESTER. Yes; I immediately assigned personnel to set up these two rooms for these two cases.

Mr. SPECTER. And what room was used for the craniotomy?

Miss WESTER. The craniotomy was set up in room 7.

Mr. SPECTER. And what room was used for the thoracotomy?

Miss WESTER. The thoracotomy was set up in room 5.

Mr. SPECTER. And on what floor were the two rooms?

Miss .WESTER. Well, on the south wing of the second floor.

Mr.. SPECTER. What happened next in connection with this matter?

Miss WESTER. I assigned personnel to take care of the doorways to keep traffic out of the operating room and keep people back---keep the halls clear. Shortly thereafter, Governor Connally arrived in the operating room with several doctors---arrived by stretcher.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, in what way did a stretcher arrive from the first floor, or by what means of locomotion?

Miss WESTER. The stretcher arrived by an elevator which is in the operating room---it comes directly from emergency room and which---there were several doctors with him that brought the stretchers up.

Mr. SPECTER. And what happened to the stretcher after it left the elevator on the second floor of the operating room area?

Miss WESTER. The doctors brought this and were proceeding down the hall, and I met them in the center of the operating room suite itself.

Mr. SPECTER. About how far is that from the elevator door?

Miss WESTER. Approximately 50 feet.

Mr. SPECTER. What was done then with Governor Connally on the stretcher, following the point where you met them?

Miss WESTER. We proceeded to room 5 and outside of room 5 we transferred Governor Connally from the stretcher onto an operating table and removed his clothes from the bottom of the stretcher and placed them in the hallway by the operating table.

Mr. SPECTER In what way was Governor Connally dressed or robed when you first saw him on the stretcher?

Miss WESTER. As far as I know, the only thing he had was a sheet on him. He had no hospital gown or anything else that I know of on.

Mr. SPECTER. Had his clothes then been removed by that time?

Miss WESTER. Yes; he arrived without his clothes. They were on the bottom of the cart in a paper sack.

Mr. SPECTER. And you said he was transferred from the stretcher onto an operating table?

Miss WESTER. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, was that inside the operating room? Or outside the operating room?

Miss WESTER. No; it's in the hallway right outside room 5--we transferred him onto the operating table, and then moved the table into the operating room.

Mr. SPECTER. And did he have any clothing on at the time you transferred him from the stretcher onto the operating table?

Miss WESTER. I don't recall any clothes that he had on.

Mr. SPECTER. What was then done with Governor Connally on the operating table?

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Miss WESTER. The operating table was moved into the operating room and at that time they proceeded to start anesthetics on him and put him to sleep.

Mr. SPECTER. What doctors were in attendance of Governor Connally at that time.

Miss WESTER. Dr.---there were many---Dr. Giesecke, G-i-e-s-e-c-k-e (spelling)---there were so many. Dr. Ray, I believe, was there, and there were many others---right offhand, I can't remember.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you go into the operating room at that time?

Miss WESTER. I went as far as the doorway with him.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, what was done with the stretcher on which he came to that point?

Miss WESTER. I took the stretcher and rolled it to the center area of the operating room suite--rolled the sheets up on the stretcher into a small bundle.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there one sheet or more than one sheet?

Miss WESTER. I believe there were two sheets and I rolled one inside the other up into a small bundle.

Mr. SPECTER. What is the next normal procedure with respect to the number of sheets on such a stretcher in like circumstances?

Miss WESTER. The cart---the mattress on the cart is covered with one sheet, the patient is usually covered with another. When they arrive in the operating room the sheet covering the patient is removed and a grey cotton blanket is placed over the patient and the sheets are rolled up and usually returned to the emergency room with the cart.

Mr. SPECTER. What else, if anything, was on that stretcher?

Miss WESTER. There were several glassine packets, small packets of hypodermic needles---well, packed in and sterilized in. There were several others---some alcohol sponges and a roll of 1-inch tape. Those things, I definitely know, were on the cart, and the sheets, of course.

Mr. SPECTER. Were there any other objects on the cart, on the stretcher cart?

Miss WESTER. Right off, I can't remember---

Mr. SPECTER. Do you recollect whether there were any gloves on the cart?

Miss WESTER. There could have been---I don't recall right off---I can't remember that.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall whether there were any tools on one end of the stretcher?

Miss WESTER. I know I set something down on the cart, I think it was a curved hemostat---I couldn't say for sure---I'm not sure.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, you have testified that you met Governor Connally on the stretcher when he was 50 feet from the elevator door. Is there any object at about that spot that is a landmark, so to speak, of that particular spot?

Miss WESTER.. There is a clock.

Mr. SPECTER. About how far from the clock is the door to the operating room, room 5, where Governor Connally was taken?

Miss WESTER. I would say approximately 75 feet.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, what did you do with the stretcher after Governor Connally was taken off of it ?

Miss WESTER. I moved the stretcher back to the center area, fairly close to the clock, it Wasn't right under it, but fairly close, and an orderly, R. J. Jimison, walked up---

Mr. SPECTER. His initials are R. J.?

Miss WESTER. And he stood at the cart while I rolled the sheets up and removed the items from the cart, and from there he took the cart and proceeded to the elevator with it and the last time I saw him he was standing at the elevator with the cart waiting for him to be picked up.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see that stretcher any more that day?

Miss WESTER. Not What I know of.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe in a general way what that stretcher looked like?

Miss WESTER. Well, it has four wheels and a lower shelf, a thin mattress on

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it, and side rails on it, on each side of the cart. It has a rubber rim at the edge of it, sort of a bumper type to the upper shelf of the cart.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is it constructed of ?

Miss WESTER. Well, it's a metal---steel.

Mr. SPECTER. What was done with the mattress?

Miss WESTER. It remained on the cart. It was not moved then, only the sheets were left and rolled into a bundle. And, when the sheets were rolled into a bundle, I didn't actually lift them up.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see Miss Jeanette Standridge at any time in connection with this particular movement of the stretcher?

Miss WESTER. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see Mrs. Henrietta Ross at any time in connection with this particular movement of the stretcher?

Miss WESTER NO; I believe she walked up on my right as I was rolling the sheets up.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see Darrell C. Tomlinson at any time in connection with this particular movement of the stretcher?

Miss WESTER No.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you interviewed. by the Secret Service about these events at some time in the past?

Miss WESTER. Yes; I was.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you interviewed by anyone else?

Miss WESTER No.

Mr. SPECTER. And did the Secret Service interview on one occasion or more than one occasion?

Miss WESTER. Only one occasion.

Mr. SPECTER. And immediately prior to your being sworn in and starting to take this deposition, did I have a very brief conversation with you about the purpose of this proceeding?

Miss WESTER. Yes; you did.

Mr. SPECTER. And about the facts to which you have testified since this formal deposition started?

Miss WESTER. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And at that did you tell me all the facts previously testified to here to this effect?

Miss WESTER. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Did the sheet on which the Governor was lying have anything on it?

Miss WESTER. It had some blood.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you made any notes or any written record of that sort concerning the matters about which you have testified here today?

Miss WESTER. No; I haven't.

Mr. SPECTER. That concludes the deposition, and I thank you very much for appearing here.

Miss WESTER. Fine.

Mrs. Henrietta M. Ross

NURSES & PARKLAND EMPLOYEES Volume VI

TESTIMONY OF JANE CAROLYN WESTER

The testimony of Jane Carolyn Wester was taken on March 20, 1964, at Park-land Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. SPECTER. Miss Wester, this is Miss Oliver the court reporter and she will take down your testimony here and will you raise your right hand and take the oath?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you will give in this proceeding will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Miss WESTER. I do.

Mr. SPECTER. May the record preliminarily show that the purpose of this proceeding is in connection with the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy to ascertain facts relating to the assassination and all medical treatment obtained by President Kennedy and Governor Connally following their being shot.

The witness at the moment is Miss Jane Wester who has been asked to testify concerning any facts of which she has knowledge concerning treatment of President Kennedy or Governor Connally and the disposition of Governor Connally's clothing and sheet in which he was wrapped at the time the Governor was brought into the operating room at Parkland Memorial Hospital.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you state your full name, for the record, please?

Miss WESTER. Jane Carolyn Wester.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is your residence address, Miss Wester?

Miss WESTER. 1107 Brockbank, Dallas.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you received a letter of notification from the President.'s Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy advising you that I would contact you for the purpose of taking testimony from you in connection

with this proceeding, Miss Wester?

Miss WESTER. Yes; I have.

Mr. SPECTER. And at that time did you receive the copies of the Executive order creating the Commission and the rules and regulations relating to the taking of testimony?

Miss WESTER. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. SPECTER. And are you satisfied to appear here today and answer some questions relating to your participation in the treatment of Governor Connally?

Miss WESTER. Yes, sir; I am.

Mr. SPECTER. And President Kennedy?

Miss WESTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your occupation or profession, please?

Miss WESTER.. I am a registered nurse.

Mr. SPECTER. And at what institution are you employed ?

Miss WESTER. Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas.

Mr. SPECTER. And how long have you been so employed at Parkland Memorial Hospital ?

Miss WESTER. Nine years ---- or 9 1/2.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you outline your duties in a general way as they were back on November 22, 1963?

Miss WESTER. I am assistant supervisor in the operating room, and I assign personnel duties, direct them in their activities.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you receive notice on that date that President Kennedy and Governor Connally were en route to Parkland Memorial Hospital to receive treatment?

Miss WESTER. I was not aware that they were in the hospital.

Mr. SPECTER. When was it first brought to your attention, if at all?

Miss WESTER. At noon, around noon---noontime---I'm not sure as to the exact time it was. I was relieving the secretary for lunch and the phone rang. Someone in the pathology department asked if the President were in the operating room and I answered them, "No," and they said that a Secret Service agent was

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down there and as soon as the President did arrive in the operating room, would I please call them.

Mr. SPECTER. What was your next connection, if any, with respect to the treatment of either President Kennedy or Governor Connally at Parkland?

Miss WESTER. I received a phone call' from the emergency room asking us to set up for a craniotomy.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is a craniotomy in lay language?

Miss WESTER. That's an exploration of the head.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there any other request made at that time?

Miss WESTER. Yes--well--immediately following, following that I received a call to set up for a thoracotomy, which is an exploration of the chest.

Mr. SPECTER. And were those two set ups made in accordance with the requests you received?

Miss WESTER. Yes; I immediately assigned personnel to set up these two rooms for these two cases.

Mr. SPECTER. And what room was used for the craniotomy?

Miss WESTER. The craniotomy was set up in room 7.

Mr. SPECTER. And what room was used for the thoracotomy?

Miss WESTER. The thoracotomy was set up in room 5.

Mr. SPECTER. And on what floor were the two rooms?

Miss .WESTER. Well, on the south wing of the second floor.

Mr.. SPECTER. What happened next in connection with this matter?

Miss WESTER. I assigned personnel to take care of the doorways to keep traffic out of the operating room and keep people back---keep the halls clear. Shortly thereafter, Governor Connally arrived in the operating room with several doctors---arrived by stretcher.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, in what way did a stretcher arrive from the first floor, or by what means of locomotion?

Miss WESTER. The stretcher arrived by an elevator which is in the operating room---it comes directly from emergency room and which---there were several doctors with him that brought the stretchers up.

Mr. SPECTER. And what happened to the stretcher after it left the elevator on the second floor of the operating room area?

Miss WESTER. The doctors brought this and were proceeding down the hall, and I met them in the center of the operating room suite itself.

Mr. SPECTER. About how far is that from the elevator door?

Miss WESTER. Approximately 50 feet.

Mr. SPECTER. What was done then with Governor Connally on the stretcher, following the point where you met them?

Miss WESTER. We proceeded to room 5 and outside of room 5 we transferred Governor Connally from the stretcher onto an operating table and removed his clothes from the bottom of the stretcher and placed them in the hallway by the operating table.

Mr. SPECTER In what way was Governor Connally dressed or robed when you first saw him on the stretcher?

Miss WESTER. As far as I know, the only thing he had was a sheet on him. He had no hospital gown or anything else that I know of on.

Mr. SPECTER. Had his clothes then been removed by that time?

Miss WESTER. Yes; he arrived without his clothes. They were on the bottom of the cart in a paper sack.

Mr. SPECTER. And you said he was transferred from the stretcher onto an operating table?

Miss WESTER. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, was that inside the operating room? Or outside the operating room?

Miss WESTER. No; it's in the hallway right outside room 5--we transferred him onto the operating table, and then moved the table into the operating room.

Mr. SPECTER. And did he have any clothing on at the time you transferred him from the stretcher onto the operating table?

Miss WESTER. I don't recall any clothes that he had on.

Mr. SPECTER. What was then done with Governor Connally on the operating table?

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Miss WESTER. The operating table was moved into the operating room and at that time they proceeded to start anesthetics on him and put him to sleep.

Mr. SPECTER. What doctors were in attendance of Governor Connally at that time.

Miss WESTER. Dr.---there were many---Dr. Giesecke, G-i-e-s-e-c-k-e (spelling)---there were so many. Dr. Ray, I believe, was there, and there were many others---right offhand, I can't remember.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you go into the operating room at that time?

Miss WESTER. I went as far as the doorway with him.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, what was done with the stretcher on which he came to that point?

Miss WESTER. I took the stretcher and rolled it to the center area of the operating room suite--rolled the sheets up on the stretcher into a small bundle.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there one sheet or more than one sheet?

Miss WESTER. I believe there were two sheets and I rolled one inside the other up into a small bundle.

Mr. SPECTER. What is the next normal procedure with respect to the number of sheets on such a stretcher in like circumstances?

Miss WESTER. The cart---the mattress on the cart is covered with one sheet, the patient is usually covered with another. When they arrive in the operating room the sheet covering the patient is removed and a grey cotton blanket is placed over the patient and the sheets are rolled up and usually returned to the emergency room with the cart.

Mr. SPECTER. What else, if anything, was on that stretcher?

Miss WESTER. There were several glassine packets, small packets of hypodermic needles---well, packed in and sterilized in. There were several others---some alcohol sponges and a roll of 1-inch tape. Those things, I definitely know, were on the cart, and the sheets, of course.

Mr. SPECTER. Were there any other objects on the cart, on the stretcher cart?

Miss WESTER. Right off, I can't remember---

Mr. SPECTER. Do you recollect whether there were any gloves on the cart?

Miss WESTER. There could have been---I don't recall right off---I can't remember that.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall whether there were any tools on one end of the stretcher?

Miss WESTER. I know I set something down on the cart, I think it was a curved hemostat---I couldn't say for sure---I'm not sure.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, you have testified that you met Governor Connally on the stretcher when he was 50 feet from the elevator door. Is there any object at about that spot that is a landmark, so to speak, of that particular spot?

Miss WESTER.. There is a clock.

Mr. SPECTER. About how far from the clock is the door to the operating room, room 5, where Governor Connally was taken?

Miss WESTER. I would say approximately 75 feet.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, what did you do with the stretcher after Governor Connally was taken off of it ?

Miss WESTER. I moved the stretcher back to the center area, fairly close to the clock, it Wasn't right under it, but fairly close, and an orderly, R. J. Jimison, walked up---

Mr. SPECTER. His initials are R. J.?

Miss WESTER. And he stood at the cart while I rolled the sheets up and removed the items from the cart, and from there he took the cart and proceeded to the elevator with it and the last time I saw him he was standing at the elevator with the cart waiting for him to be picked up.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see that stretcher any more that day?

Miss WESTER. Not What I know of.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe in a general way what that stretcher looked like?

Miss WESTER. Well, it has four wheels and a lower shelf, a thin mattress on

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it, and side rails on it, on each side of the cart. It has a rubber rim at the edge of it, sort of a bumper type to the upper shelf of the cart.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is it constructed of ?

Miss WESTER. Well, it's a metal---steel.

Mr. SPECTER. What was done with the mattress?

Miss WESTER. It remained on the cart. It was not moved then, only the sheets were left and rolled into a bundle. And, when the sheets were rolled into a bundle, I didn't actually lift them up.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see Miss Jeanette Standridge at any time in connection with this particular movement of the stretcher?

Miss WESTER. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see Mrs. Henrietta Ross at any time in connection with this particular movement of the stretcher?

Miss WESTER NO; I believe she walked up on my right as I was rolling the sheets up.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see Darrell C. Tomlinson at any time in connection with this particular movement of the stretcher?

Miss WESTER No.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you interviewed. by the Secret Service about these events at some time in the past?

Miss WESTER. Yes; I was.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you interviewed by anyone else?

Miss WESTER No.

Mr. SPECTER. And did the Secret Service interview on one occasion or more than one occasion?

Miss WESTER. Only one occasion.

Mr. SPECTER. And immediately prior to your being sworn in and starting to take this deposition, did I have a very brief conversation with you about the purpose of this proceeding?

Miss WESTER. Yes; you did.

Mr. SPECTER. And about the facts to which you have testified since this formal deposition started?

Miss WESTER. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And at that did you tell me all the facts previously testified to here to this effect?

Miss WESTER. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Did the sheet on which the Governor was lying have anything on it?

Miss WESTER. It had some blood.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you made any notes or any written record of that sort concerning the matters about which you have testified here today?

Miss WESTER. No; I haven't.

Mr. SPECTER. That concludes the deposition, and I thank you very much for appearing here.

Miss WESTER. Fine.

Mrs. Henrietta M. Ross

Page 123

TESTIMONY OF MRS. HENRIETTA M. ROSS

The testimony of Mrs. Henrietta M. Ross was taken at 6:50 p.m., on March 25, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that the oath has been administered to Mrs. Henrietta Ross who is appearing here in response to a letter request to testify as part of the inquiry of the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy, which involves the, treatment of President Kennedy and Governor Connally at Parkland Hospital.

Mrs. Ross has been asked to appear and testify concerning her knowledge about the stretcher cart on which Governor Connally was transported while in the hospital.

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Mr. SPECTER. With that preliminary statement, I'll ask you, Mrs. Ross, to state your full name?

Mrs. ROSS. Mrs. Henrietta Magnolia Ross.

Mr. SPECTER. And where are you employed?

Mrs. ROSS. Parkland Hospital.

Mr. SPECTER. In what capacity?

Mrs. ROSS. Operating room technician.

Mr. SPECTER. And what were your duties on November 22, 1963?

Mrs. ROSS. Stand in the hall and guard the. hall and not let anyone pass by I did not know.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to see Governor Connally?

Mrs. ROSS. Yes; as he came down the hall on the cart.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see him as he left the elevator?

Mrs. ROSS. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER About what time was that?

Mrs. ROSS. About--it should have been after 1 o'clock because I was supposed to go to a class that day and I couldn't go.

Mr. SPECTER. Who was with him at the time, if anyone?

Mrs. ROSS. There were doctors all around in the corridor and I don't know exactly who--I only remember one person and that was Dr. Gustafason, because he gave me his coat to hang up as he was passing.

Mr. SPECTER. Was Miss Jane Wester there?

Mrs. ROSS. She was up there; yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And what did you see them do with the Governor, if anything?

Mrs. ROSS. They pushed him down in front of room 5 and onto the operating table and put him on it.

Mr. SPECTER. What were they pushing him on?

Mrs. ROSS. On a stretcher from the emergency room.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe the stretcher for me, please, starting with what was it made of ?

Mrs. ROSS. It has four legs, four wheels and has a little rubber sheet on it. I mean, a rubber mattress, and the length of the normal body is the length of the cart.

Mr. SPECTER. Is it made of metal?

Mrs. ROSS. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And what was done with the stretcher cart after they rolled Governor Connally off of it?

Mrs. ROSS. It was pushed back up toward room 3.

Mr. SPECTER. Is that toward the elevator?

Mrs. ROSS. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And by whom was it pushed?

Mrs. ROSS. Jimison.

Mr. SPECTER. R. J. Jimison?

Mrs. Ross. I don't know Jimison's initials, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. He's one of the orderlies there?

Mrs. ROSS. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And where did you last see the stretcher?

Mrs. ROSS. In front of room 3.

Mr. SPECTER. Did Jimison have it in his control at that time?

Mrs. ROSS. The last time I looked he was pushing it; yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you talked to the Secret Service about this?

Mrs. ROSS. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. On how many occasions?

Mrs. ROSS. One time.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you talk to anyone else from the Federal Government about this matter?

Mrs. ROSS. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add which you think might be helpful to the Commission?

Mrs. ROSS. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much for appearing.

Mrs. ROSS. Thank you.

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R. J. Jimison

Page 125

TESTIMONY OF R. J. JIMISON

The testimony of R. J. Jimison was taken at 2:35 p.m., on March 21, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you stand up please, Mr. Jimison, and raise your right hand.

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you shall give before this Commission in the deposition proceedings will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. JIMISON. I do.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Jimison, have you received a letter of notification from the President's Commission advising you that you would be contacted to have your deposition taken?

Mr. JIMISON. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And did that letter contain in it a copy of the Executive order creating the Commission, a copy of the joint congressional resolution about the Commission, and the procedures for taking depositions by the Commission?

Mr. JIMISON. I believe it did.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you willing to have your deposition taken today, sir; do you have any objection to my asking you some questions and having them reported by the court reporter here?

Mr. JIMISON. No; I do not.

Mr. SPECTER. By whom are you employed, Mr. Jimison?

Mr. JIMISON. I would just say the hospital---County Hospital.

Mr. SPECTER. Parkland Memorial Hospital?

Mr. JIMISON. Yes; Parkland Memorial Hospital.

Mr. SPECTER. What kind of work do you do here?

Mr. JIMISON. Orderlyly.

Mr. SPECTER. Let the record show that you have a badge on which says, "R.J. Jimison."

Mr. JIMISON. Right.

Mr. SPECTER.. "Orderly." And is that your full name?

Mr. JIMISON. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And what does the "R" stand for?

Mr. JIMISON. That's just an initial name.

Mr. SPECTER.. And how about the "J"?

Mr. JIMISON. Same.

Mr. SPECTER. So, people call you "R. J."?

Mr. JIMISON. Right.

Mr. SPECTER. What were your duties back on November 22, 1963, Mr. Jimison?

Mr. JIMISON. My duties was the same as usual; that is, to transport patients to and fro, reclean rooms, betwixt each case.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to see President Kennedy on that day?

Mr. JIMISON. I did not.

Mr. SPECTER.. Did you have occasion to see Governor Connally on that day?

Mr. JIMISON. I did.

Mr. SPECTER. What were the circumstances under which you saw Governor Connally?

Mr. JIMISON. Well, I would say it wasn't such a pleasant circumstance, but he was lying on a carriage, a hospital carriage, and I was---I assisted in helping move him from the carriage to the operating table.

Mr. SPECTER. Where was he when you first saw him?

Mr. JIMISON. He was on the second floor in the operating room suite, near room 4, where his operation was performed.

Mr. SPECTER. Was he taken to room 4 or room 5?

Mr. JIMISON. He was taken in room---I thought it was room 4, but maybe it could have been room 5, but I taken it to be room 4, because like I told you, I helped lift him off of the table, but usually we help put them in the room--at that time there was so many doctors that I didn't.

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Mr. SPECTER. Did you see Governor Connally from the time he came off of the elevator?

Mr. JIMISON. No.

Mr. SPECTER. What floor were you on when you first saw him?

Mr. JIMISON. I was on two.

Mr. SPECTER. How far was he from the elevator when you first saw him?

Mr. JIMISON. I guess he must have been about 20 feet.

Mr. SPECTER. And how far was it from the elevator to the place where you were?

Mr. JIMISON. About how ninny feet? About 20 or 30 feet

Mr. SPECTER. Was he near the big clock when you first saw him, the clock that is overhead in the center there?

Mr. JIMISON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And were there doctors around him at that time?

Mr. JIMISON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And did you help push the stretcher from that point to---

Mr. JIMISON. (interrupting) No; I followed behind him to room 4 and I helped them take him off.

Mr. SPECTER. You helped them take Governor Connally and put him on the operating table?

Mr. JIMISON. I did.

Mr. SPECTER. And what then was done with the stretcher that he was on?

Mr. JIMISON. Well, the stretcher at that time was moved back from the table, of course, because they had to make room for the doctors to get up close to the table, which was back just always and when I got free---whether it was Miss Wester or Mrs. Ross there---they pushed it back a little further, but they didn't get quite to the elevator with it; I came along and pushed it onto the elevator myself and loaded it on and pushed the door closed.

Mr. SPECTER. What was on the stretcher at that time?

Mr. JIMISON. I noticed nothing more than a little fiat mattress and two sheets as usual.

Mr. SPECTER. And what was the position of the sheets?

Mr. JIMISON. Of course, them sheets was, of course, as usual, flat out on the bed.

Mr. SPECTER. Had they been rolled up?

Mr. JIMISON. More or less, not rolled, which, yes, usually they is, the mattress and sheets are all just throwed, one of them about halfway, it would be just throwed about halfway.

Mr. SPECTER. Were the sheets flat or just turned over?

Mr. JIMISON. Well, just turned over.

Mr. SPECTER. Were they crumpled up in any way?

Mr. JIMISON. Well, there was a possibility it was strictly---a tragic day.

Mr. SPECTER. It was what?

Mr. JIMISON. It was a tragic day.

Mr. SPECTER. Right, and everybody was a little shook up on account of it?

Mr. JIMISON. We didn't look too close.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there anything else on the stretcher?

Mr. JIMISON. I never noticed anything else at all.

Mr. SPECTER. Could there have been some empty packets of hypodermic needles alcohol sponge?

Mr. JIMISON. There could have been.

Mr. SPECTER. Or a l-inch roll of tape?

Mr. JIMISON. There could have been something--small stuff, but nothing large like bundles or anything like that.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you do with the stretcher then, you said?

Mr. JIMISON. Pushed it on the rear elevator, which goes downstairs.

Mr. SPECTER. Is there any other elevator which goes downstairs to the emergency area?

Mr. JIMISON. Not close in the emergency area----that's the only one.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the purpose for your putting it on that elevator?

Mr. JIMISON. It goes back to emergency because it can be cleaned up there and remade and put in use again.

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Mr. SPECTER. Is it customarily your Job to put it back on the elevator?

Mr. JIMISON. Yes; it is.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever take it down and put it in order yourself?

Mr. JIMISON. No, sir; we never carry it down ourselves. The fact is---the purpose is---we have enough to do up there, and we have men up there to take care of that.

Mr. SPECTER. Somebody else is supposed to take the elevator up there? Is that right?

Mr. JIMISON. One of them---we put it on the elevator, then it becomes the responsibility of the emergency room.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there any other stretcher placed on that elevator later that day?

Mr. JIMISON. Not during my shift.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you the only man who would put the stretcher on the elevator if there were one?

Mr. JIMISON. No, I is not, but might near--I could might near see of anybody--from where the elevator sits from where the halls were--I could might near see all of the stretchers put on there.

Mr. SPECTER. If a stretcher was put on there it would have to be in your presence?

Mr. JIMISON. I would have had to be hid where I wouldn't be able to see it.

Mr. SPECTER What time did you put the stretcher from Governor Connally on the elevator?

Mr. JIMISON. I'm not too sure I know of the time. I really don't know exactly the time.

Mr. SPECTER Well, about how long after he was taken into the operating room, did you?

Mr. JIMISON. It was lesser than 10 minutes before or after.

Mr. SPECTER. What time did you get off that day?

Mr. JIMISON. 3:30.

Mr. SPECTER. And you say there was no other stretcher placed on that elevator from the time you put Governor Connally's stretcher on until the end of the day ?

Mr. JIMISON. Until the end of my shift. You see, that's the emergency---- from the emergency that we had from that time that he was brought up until I was relieved from duty that afternoon.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you notice any bullets on the stretcher?

Mr. JIMISON. I never noticed any at all.

Mr. SPECTER. Did I sit down and tall with you for a few minutes before the court reporter came in to take this all down here today?

Mr. JIMISON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And have I asked you questions and have you given me answers just like in our short discussion before this deposition started?

Mr. JIMISON. (No response.)

Mr. SPECTER. Did you and I talk about the same things we have been talking about since. the court reporter came in?

Mr. JIMISON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever been talked to by any other person from the Federal Government?

Mr. JIMISON. Yes, I have.

Mr. SPECTER. And who was that?

Mr. JIMISON. I don't remember his name, but shortly after that happened---I don't know, as I say, it was the Federal Government.

Mr. SPECTER. What branch was he from?

Mr. JIMISON. I thought he was from the Secret Service.

Mr. SPECTER. How many times did you talk to somebody from the Secret Service.

Mr. JIMISON. Well, I talked to him once; he just talked to me once.

Mr. SPECTER. And what about?

Mr. JIMISON. The same thing.

Mr. SPECTER. And did you ever talk to anybody else about this fact?

Mr. JIMISON. No.

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Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add, that you think might be helpful to us?

Mr. JIMISON. Well, no, because the fact is--because that's pretty well covered---just, I actually want to give facts about something I know something about, and during the time I know something about, and what actually happened from the time I got off---I couldn't tell you, but I do know there wasn't no carriage from the time that carriage was picked up until I got off from duty.

This ain't actually-not in it, but due to this---this is---what I'm fixing to say is off of the book---I couldn't see after President Kennedy because I didn't---I never did get up to the floor---so I didn't see him. I am glad if was any kind of help, Mr. Specter.

Mr. SPECTER. You have been, Mr. Jimison, and we appreciate your coming in and helping us a lot.

Mr. JIMISON. Same back to you.

Mr. SPECTER. Thank you.

Darrell C. Tomlinson

Page 128

TESTIMONY OF DARRELL C. TOMLINSON

The testimony of Darrell C. Tomlinson was taken on March 20, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Tomlinson, this is Miss Oliver, and she is the court reporter. Will you stand up and hold up your right hand and take the oath, please ?

Do you solemnly swear that in the taking of your deposition in these proceedings, you will tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. TOMLINSON. I do.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you state your full name, for the record?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Darrell Carlisle Tomlinson.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Tomlinson, the purpose of this deposition proceeding is to take your deposition in connection with an inquiry made by the President's Commission in connection with the Assassination of President Kennedy to determine from you all the facts, if any, which you know concerning the events surrounding the assassination of President Kennedy and any treatment which was given at Parkland Memorial Hospital to either President Kennedy or Governor Connally, or anything that happened to any physical objects connected with either one of those men.

First of all, did you receive a letter advising you that the Commission was interested in having one of its staff lawyers take your deposition concerning this matter?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And did that letter include in it a copy of the Executive order creating the Commission?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And a copy of the congressional resolution concerning the creation of the President's Commission?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And a copy of the resolution governing questioning of witnesses by members of the Commission's staff?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And are you willing today for me to ask you some questions about what you observed or know about this matter?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And it is satisfactory with you to proceed today rather than to have 3 days from the time you got the letter, which was yesterday?

Mr. TOMLINSON. It's immaterial.

Mr. SPECTER. It's immaterial to you?

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Mr. TOMLINSON. It's immaterial---it's at your convenience.

Mr. SPECTER. That's fine. We appreciate that, Mr. Tomlinson.

The reason is, that you have the right to a 3-day notice, but if it doesn't matter to you, then we would like to go ahead and take your information today.

Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. We call that a waiver under the law, if it is all right with you to talk with you today, then I want to go ahead and do that; is that all right?

Mr. TOMLINSON.. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, where are you employed, Mr. Tomlinson?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Parkland Hospital.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is your capacity ?

Mr. TOMLINSON. I am classed as the senior engineer.

Mr. SPECTER. And what duties are involved in general?

Mr. TOMLINSON. I'm in charge of the powerplant here at the hospital, which takes care of the heating and air- conditioning services for the building.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe the general physical layout relating to the emergency area and how you get from the emergency area, say, to the second Floor emergency operating rooms of Parkland Memorial Hospital?

Mr. TOMLINSON. You mean just the general lay?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes, sir; please.

Mr. TOMLINSON. Well, we have one elevator that goes from the basement to the third floor, that's what we call the emergency elevator. It's in the south section of the hospital and that would be your most direct route to go from the ground floor, which emergency is on, to the operating rooms on two.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, did you have anything to do with that elevator on November 22, sometime around the noon hour?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And what did you have to do with that elevator?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Well, we received a call in the engineer's office, the chief engineer's office, and he requested someone to operate the elevator.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there any problem with the elevator with respect to a mechanical difficulty of any sort?

Mr. TOMLINSON. No, sir; it was an ordinary type elevator, and if it isn't keyed off it. will stop every time somebody pushes a button, and they preferred it to go only to the second floor and to the ground floor unless otherwise instructed by the administrator.

Mr. SPECTER. So, what were you to do with this elevator?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Key it off the ground, between ground and second floor.

Mr. SPECTER. So that you would operate it in that way?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes; make a manual operation out of it.

Mr. SPECTER. When you came upon that elevator, what time was it, to the best of your recollection ?

Mr. TOMLINSON. It was around 1 o'clock.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there anything on the elevator at that time?

Mr. TOMLINSON. There was one stretcher.

Mr. SPECTER. And describe the appearance of that stretcher, if you will, please.

Mr. TOMLINSON. I believe that stretcher had sheets on it and had a white covering on the pad.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you say about the covering on the pad, excuse me?

Mr. TOMLINSON. I believe it was a white sheet that was on the pad.

Mr. SPECTER. And was there anything else on that?

Mr. TOMLINSON. I don't believe there was on that one, I'm not sure, but I don't believe there was.

Mr. SPECTER. What, if anything, did you do with that stretcher?

Mr. TOMLINSON. I took it off of the elevator and put it over against the south wall.

Mr. SPECTER. On what floor?

Mr. TOMLINSON. The ground floor.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there any other stretcher in that area at that time?

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Mr. TOMLINSON. There was a stretcher about 2 feet from the wall already there.

(Indicating on drawing to which the witness referred.)

Mr. SPECTER. Now, you have just pointed to a drawing which you have made of this situation, have you not, while we were talking a few minutes before the court reporter started to take down your testimony?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, would you mark in ink with my pen the stretcher which you pushed off of the elevator?

Mr. TOMLINSON. I think that it was this one right here (indicating).

Mr. SPECTER. Will you draw the outline of it in ink and mark an "A" right in the center of that?

(Witness complied with request of Counsel Specter.)

Mr. SPECTER. Now, would you mark in ink the position of the stretcher which was already on the first floor?

Mr. TOMLINSON. This was the ground floor.

Mr. SPECTER. Pardon me, on the ground floor? Is there a different designation for the first floor?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Where is the first floor?

Mr. TOMLINSON. One above the ground. We have basement, ground, first, second, and third on that elevator.

Mr. SPECTER. What floor was Governor Connally taken to, if you know?

Mr. TOMLINSON. He was on two, he was in the operating rooms up on two. That's our surgical suites up there.

Mr. SPECTER. And what level is the emergency entrance of the hospital on?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Well, it's the ground floor---it's there at the back of the hospital, you see, it's built on the incline there.

Mr. SPECTER. And the elevator which you found in this area was on the ground floor?

Mr. TOMLINSON. The elevator?

Mr. SPECTER. The stretcher.

Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you mark with a "B" the stretcher which was present at the time you pushed stretcher "A" off of the elevator?

Mr. TOMLINSON. (Witness complied with the request of Counsel Specter.) I believe that's it.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, what, if anything, did you later observe as to stretcher

Mr. TOMLINSON. Well, sir; I don't recall how long it had been exactly, but an intern or doctor, I didn't know which, came to use the men's room there in the elevator lobby.

Mr. SPECTER. Where is the men's room located on this diagram?

Mr. TOMLINSON. It would be right there (indicating) beside the "B" stretcher.

Mr. SPECTER Would you draw in ink there the outline of that room in a general way?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Well, I really don't know.

Mr. SPECTER. And would you mark that with the letter "C"?

(Witness complied with request of Counsel Specter.)

Mr. SPECTER. That's fine. What happened when that gentleman came to use the men's room?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Well, he pushed the stretcher out from the wall to get in, and then when he came out he just walked off and didn't push the stretcher back up against the wall, so I pushed it out of the way where we would have clear area in front of the elevator.

Mr. SPECTER. And where did you push it to?

Mr. TOMLINSON. I pushed it back up against the wall.

Mr. SPECTER. What, if anything, happened then?

Mr. TOMLINSON, I bumped the wall and a spent cartridge or bullet rolled out that apparently had been lodged under the edge of the mat.

Mr. SPECTER. And that was from which stretcher?

Mr. TOMLINSON. I believe that it was "B".

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Mr. SPECTER. And what was on "B", if you recall; if anything?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Well, at one end they had one or two sheets rolled up; I didn't examine them. They were bloody. They were rolled up on the east end of it and there were a few surgical instruments on, the opposite end and a sterile pack or so.

Mr. SPECTER. A sterile what?

Mr. TOMLINSON. A sterile pack.

Mr. SPECTER. What do you mean by that?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Like gauze or something like that.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there an alcohol sponge?

Mr. TOMLINSON. There could have been.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there a roll of 1-inch tape?

Mr. TOMLINSON. No; I don't think so.

Mr. SPECTER. Were there any empty packets from hypodermic needles?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Well, now, it had some paper there but I don't know what they came from.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, Mr. Tomlinson, are you sure that it was stretcher "A" that you took out of the elevator and not stretcher "B"?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Well, really, I can't be positive, just to be perfectly honest about it, I can't be positive, because I really didn't pay that much attention to it. The stretcher was on the elevator and I pushed it off of there and I believe we made one or two calls up before I straightened out the stretcher up against the wall.

Mr. SPECTER. When you say "one or two calls," what do you mean by that?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Went to pick up the technician from the second floor to bring him down to the ground floor to get blood.

Mr. SPECTER. And when you say before you straightened the stretcher up, what do you mean by that?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Well, we Just rolled them out of the way where we had some room on the elevator-that's a small elevator.

Mr. SPECTER. So, when you rolled them out of the elevator, when you rolled the stretcher out of the elevator, did you place it against the wall at 'that time?

Mr. TOMLINSON. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Were both of these stretchers constructed in the same way?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Similar--yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe the appearance of the stretcher with reference to what it was made of and how many shelves it had, and that sort of thing?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Well, it's made of tubed steel with a fiat iron frame on the top where you lay the patient and it has one shelf down between the four wheels.

Mr. SPECTER. Does it have any bumpers on it?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes, and it has rubber bumpers.

Mr. SPECTER. Does it have any rail to keep the patient on?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes; they have the rails on the side made of tubed steel. The majority of them have those.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, just before we started this deposition, before I placed you under oath and before the court reporter started to take down my questions and your answers, you and I had a brief talk, did we not?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And we discussed in a general way the information which you have testified about, did we not?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And at the time we started our discussion, it was your recollection at that point that the bullet came off of stretcher A, was it not ?

Mr. TOMLINSON. B.

Mr. SPECTER. Pardon me, stretcher B, but it was stretcher A that you took off of the elevator.

Mr. TOMLINSON. I believe that's right.

Mr. SPECTER. But there is no question but that at the time we started our discussion a few minutes before the court reporter started to take it down,

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that your best recollection was that it was stretcher A which came off of the elevator?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes, I believe that was it--yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you been interviewed about this matter by any other Federal representative?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER.. Who interviewed you about it?

Mr. TOMLINSON. I don't remember the name of either one of them, but one was the FBI man and one was the Secret Service man.

Mr. SPECTER. How many times did the FBI interview you?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Once.

Mr. SPECTER. How many times did the Secret Service interview you?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Once.

Mr. SPECTER. When did the FBI interview you?

Mr. TOMLINSON. I believe they were the first to do it.

Mr. SPECTER. Approximately when was that?

Mr. TOMLINSON. I think that was the latter part of November.

Mr. SPECTER. And when did the Secret Service interview you?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Approximately a week later, the first part of December.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, do you recollect what the FBI man asked you about?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Just about where I found the bullet.

Mr. SPECTER. Did he ask you about these stretchers?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Well, he asked me about the stretchers, yes, just about the same thing we've gone over here.

Mr. SPECTER. What did the Secret Service man ask you about?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Approximately the same thing, only, we've gone into more detail here.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you tell the Secret Service man about which stretcher you took off of the elevator?

Mr. TOMLINSON. I told him that I was not sure, and I am not--I'm not sure of it, but as I said, I would be going against the oath which I took a while ago, because I am definitely not sure.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you remember if you told the Secret Service man which stretcher you thought you took off of the elevator?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Well, we talked about taking a stretcher off of the elevator, but then when it comes down on an oath, I wouldn't say for sure, I really don't remember.

Mr. SPECTER. And do you recollect whether or not you told the Secret Service man which stretcher you took off of the elevator?

Mr. TOMLINSON. What do you mean ?

Mr. SPECTER. You say you can't really take an oath today to be sure whether it was stretcher A or stretcher B that you took off the elevator?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Well, today or any other day, I'm just not sure of it, whether it was A or B that I took off.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, has your recollection always been the same about the situation, that is, today, and when you talked to the Secret Service man and when you talked to the FBI man?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes; I told him that I wasn't sure.

Mr. SPECTER. So, what you told the Secret Service man was just about the same thing as you have told me today?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. When I first started to ask you about this, Mr. Tomlinson, you

initially identified stretcher A as the one which came off of the elevator car?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes; I think it's just like that

Mr, SPECTER. And, then, when

Mr. TOMLINSON. (interrupting). Here's the deal--I rolled that thing off, we got a call, and went to second floor, picked the man up and brought him down. He went on over across, to clear out of the emergency area, but across from it, and picked up two pints of, I believe it was, blood. He told me to hold for him, he had to get right back to the operating room, so I held, and the minute he hit there, we took off for the second floor and I came. back to the ground. Now, I don't know how many people went through that---I don't know how many

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people hit them--I don't know anything about what could have happened to them in between the time I was gone, and I made several trips before I discovered the bullet on the end of it there.

Mr. SPECTER. You think, then, that this could have been either, you took out of the elevator as you sit here at the moment, or you just can't be sure?

Mr. TOMLINSON. It could be, but I can't be positive or positively sure I think it was A, but I'm not sure.

Mr. SPECTER. That you took off of the elevator?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, before I started to ask you questions under oath, which have been taken down here, I told you, did I not, that the Secret Service man wrote a report where he said that the bullet was found on the stretcher which you took off of the elevator---I called that to your attention, didn't I?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes; you told me that.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, after I tell you that, does that have any effect on refreshing your recollection of what you told the Secret Service man?

Mr. TOMLINSON. No it really doesn't---it really doesn't.

Mr. SPECTER. So, would it be a fair summary to say that when I first started to talk to you about it, your first view was that the stretcher you took off of the elevator was stretcher A, and then I told you that the Secret Service man said it was---that you had said the stretcher you took off of the elevator was the one that you found the bullet off, and when we talked about the whole matter and talked over the entire situation, you really can't be completely sure about which stretcher you took off of the elevator, because you didn't push the stretcher that you took off of the elevator right against the wall at first?

Mr. TOMLINSON. That's right.

Mr. SPECTER. And, there was a lot of confusion that day, which is what you told me before?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Absolutely. And now, honestly, I don't remember telling him definitely-I know we talked about it, and I told him that it could have been. Now, he might have drawed his own conclusion on that.

Mr. SPECTER. You told the Secret Service agent that you didn't know where---

Mr. TOMLINSON. (interrupting). He asked me if it could have been brought down from the second floor.

Mr. SPECTER. You got the stretcher from where the bullet came from, whether it was brought down from the second floor?

Mr. TOMLINSON. It could have been--I'm not sure whether it was A I took off.

Mr. SPECTER. But did you tell the Secret Service man which one you thought it was you took off of the elevator?

Mr. TOMLINSON. I'm not clear on that---whether I absolutely made a positive statement to that effect.

Mr. SPECTER. You told him that it could have been B you took off of the elevator?

Mr. TOMLINSON. That's right.

Mr. SPECTER. But, you don't remember whether you told him it was A you took off of the elevator?

Mr. TOMLINSON. I think it was A---I'm not really sure.

Mr. SPECTER. Which did you tell the Secret Service agent--that you thought it was A that you took off of the elevator?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Really, I couldn't be real truthful in saying I told him this or that.

Mr. SPECTER. You Just don't remember for sure whether you told him you thought it was A or not?

Mr. TOMLINSON. No, sir; I really don't remember. I'm not accustomed to being questioned by the Secret Service and the FBI and by you and they are writing down everything, I mean.

Mr. SPECTER. That's all right. I understand exactly what you are saying and I appreciate it and I really just want to get your best recollection.

We understand it isn't easy to remember all that went on, on a day like November 22d, and that a man's recollection is not perfect like every other part of a man, but I want you to tell me just what you remember, and that's the

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best you can do today, and I appreciate that, and so does the President's Commission, and that's all we can ask a man.

Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes, I'm going to tell you all I can, and I'm not going to tell you something I can't lay down and sleep at night with either.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know where the stretcher came from that you found on the elevator?

Mr. TOMLINSON. No, sir; I do not. It could have come from two, it could have come from three, it could have come from some other place.

Mr. SPECTER. You didn't see anybody put it there?

Mr. TOMLINSON. No, sir--it was on the elevator when I got there. There wasn't anyone on the elevator at the time when I keyed it off.

Mr. SPECTER. And when you say "keyed it off," you mean?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Put it in manual operation.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Tomlinson, does it make any difference to you whether you sign this deposition at the end or not?

Mr. TOMLINSON. No.

Mr. SPECTER. We very much appreciate your coming, Mr. Tomlinson. Thank you very much. Those are all the questions I have.

Mr. TOMLINSON. All right. Thank you.

Mr. SPECTER. Off the record.

(Discussion between counsel and the witness Tomlinson regarding a proposed exhibit.)

Mr. SPECTER. On the record.

Now that the deposition of Mr. Tomlinson has been concluded, I am having the paper marked as Tomlinson Exhibit No. 2.

(Instrument marked by the reporter as Tomlinson Exhibit No. 2, for identification.)

Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that Mr. Tomlinson is present, and will you identify this paper marked Tomlinson Exhibit No. 2 as the one which contains the diagram of the emergency room and the letters A and B of the stretchers we have been discussing?

Mr. TOMLINSON. That's just the elevator lobby in emergency.

Mr. SPECTER. And this is the diagram which you drew for us?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. That's all, and thank you very much.

Diana Hamilton Bowron

Page 134

TESTIMONY OF DIANA HAMILTON BOWRON

The testimony of Diana Hamilton Bowron was taken at 2:05 p.m., on March 24, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that Diana Bowron is present following a verbal request that she appear here to have her deposition taken. During the course of deposition proceedings on March 20 and March 21, it came to my attention that Miss Bowron would have information of value to the Commission, and authorization was provided through the General Counsel, J. Lee Rankin, for her deposition to be taken.

Miss Bowron, the President's Commission is investigating the assassination of President Kennedy and is interested in certain facts relating to his treatment and presence at Parkland Memorial Hospital, and we have asked you to appear here to testify concerning your knowledge of his presence here.

Now, I have shown you,. have I not, the Executive order appointing the Presidential Commission and the resolution authorizing the taking of testimony at depositions by Commission staff members, have I not?

Miss BOWRON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And are you willing to have your deposition taken today without 3 days' written notice, as we ordinarily provide?

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Miss BOWRON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. So, are you willing to waive that technical requirement?

Miss BOWRON. Yes; I am.

Mr. SPECTER. All right. Will you stand up and raise your right hand?

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give before the President's Commission in these deposition proceedings will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Miss BOWRON. I do.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your permanent residence address, Miss Bowron?

Miss BOWRON. 1107 Brockbank, Dallas 29, Tex.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you spell that street name and speak up more loudly?

Miss BOWRON. B-r-o-c-k-b-a-n-k [spelling].

Mr. SPECTER. Thank you. Are you a native of Dallas, or of some other area?

Miss BOWRON. I am a native of England.

Mr. SPECTER. And how long have you been in Dallas?

Miss BOWRON . Since August 4, 1963.

Mr. SPECTER. And what are the circumstances surrounding your employment here at Parkland Memorial Hospital?

Miss BOWRON. I answered an advertisement in August and came over on a year's contract and to work in the emergency room.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you a registered nurse?

Miss BOWRON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is your educational background?

Miss BOWRON. I went to private boarding school and to secondary school, and then I went through nurses' training for 3 years and 3 months in England. I finished in February of last year.

Mr. SPECTER. And how old are you at the present time?

Miss BOWRON. Twenty-two.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to render assistance to President Kennedy back on November 22, 1963?

Miss BOWRON. I did; yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you relate briefly the circumstances surrounding your being called in to assist in that case?

Miss. BOWRON. I was assigned to work in the minor medicine and surgery area and I was passing through major surgery and I heard over the intercom that they needed carts out at the emergency room entrance, so the orderly from the triage desk, which was passing through and he and I took one cart from major surgery and ran down the hall and by the cashier's desk, there were some men I assume were Secret Service men.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you know at that time whom you were going to aid?

Miss BOWRON. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. You later assumed they were Secret Service men?

Miss BOWRON. Yes, sir; and they encouraged us to run down to the door.

Mr. SPECTER. And did you have a stretcher with you at that time?

Miss BOWRON. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And was one stretcher or more than one stretcher being brought forward at that time?

Miss BOWRON. There was another stretcher being brought forward from the OB--GYN section.

Mr. SPECTER. That's the obstetrics and gynecology section?

Miss BOWMAN. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And were you wheeling one stretcher by yourself, or was someone helping?

Miss BOWRON. No; the orderly from the triage desk was helping us.

Mr. SPECTER. Was helping you ?

Miss BOWRON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Who was that?

Miss BOWRON. Joe---I've forgotten what his last name is, I'm sorry. I know his first name is Joe and he's on duty today.

Mr. SPECTER. And who was bringing the other stretcher?

Miss BOWRON. I don't know, sir, I heard afterwards that Dr. Midgett took one stretcher. I don't know who was assisting him.

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Mr. SPECTER. And what is Dr. Midgett's first name?

Miss BOWRON. Bill.

Mr. SPECTER. And, where did you take your stretcher?

Miss BOWRON. To the left-hand side of the car as you are facing it, and we had to move Governor Connally out first because he was in the front. We couldn't get to the back seat. While all the Secret Service men were moving Governor Connally I went around to the other side of the car to try to help with the President and then we got him onto the second cart and then took him straight over to trauma room 1.

Mr. SPECTER. Trauma room No. 1?

Miss BOWRON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And describe in a general way Governor Connally's condition when you first saw him?

Miss BOWRON. He was very pale, he was leaning forward and onto Mrs. Connally but apparently---I didn't notice very much---I was more concerned with the person in the back of the car---the President.

Mr. SPECTER. And what, in a general way, did you observe with respect to President Kennedy's condition?

Miss BOWRON. He was very pale, he was lying across Mrs. Kennedy's knee and there seemed to be blood everywhere. When I went around to the other side of the car I saw the condition of his head.

Mr. SPECTER. You saw the condition of his what?

Miss BOWRON. The back of his head.

Mr. SPECTER. And what was that condition?

Miss BOWRON. Well, it was very bad---you know.

Mr. SPECTER. How many holes did you see?

Miss BOWRON. I just saw one large hole.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see a small bullet hole beneath that one large hole?

Miss BOWRON. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you notice any other wound on the President's body?

Miss BOWRON. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And what action did you take at that time, if any?

Miss BOWRON. I helped to lift his head and Mrs. Kennedy pushed me away and lifted his head herself onto the cart and so I went around back to the cart and walked off with it. We ran on with it to the trauma room and she ran beside us.

Mr. SPECTER. And who was in the trauma room when you arrived there?

Miss BOWRON. Dr. Carrico.

Mr. SPECTER. Where did Dr. Carrico join you?

Miss BOWRON. At the---I couldn't really tell you exactly, but it was inside major surgery. Miss Henchliffe, the other nurse who is assigned to major surgery, was in the trauma room already setting the I.V.'s---the intravenous bottles up.

Mr. SPECTER. And were there any other nurses present at that time when

the President arrived in the trauma area?

Miss BOWRON. I don't think so, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Were there any doctors present besides Dr. Carrico?

Miss BOWRON. I didn't notice anybody---there may have been.

Mr. SPECTER. What action did you observe Dr. Carrico take, if any?

Miss BOWRON. We tried to start an I.V. cutdown and I don't know whether it was his left or his right leg, and Miss Henchliffe and I cut off his clothing and then after that everybody just arrived at once and it was more or less everybody sort of helping everybody else. We opened the chest tube trays and the venesectron trays.

Mr. SPECTER. How long were you present in the emergency room No. 1?

Miss BOWRON. I was in there until they needed some blood, which was the second lot of blood. I went---ran out across to the blood bank and came back and went into the trauma room. By that time they had decided that he was dead, they said.

And then, we stayed in there with him and cleaned him up, removed all of his clothing and put them all together and Miss Henchliffe gave them to

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one of the Secret Service men, and we stayed with the body until the coffin came, and helped put him in there, and then we--

Mr. SPECTER When you say "we", whom do you mean by "we"?

Miss BOWRON. Miss Henchliffe and myself.

Mr. SPECTER. Anybody besides the two of you?

Miss BOWRON. Yes; there was an orderly called David Sanders who helped us to clean the floor, because there were leaves and sheets and everything was rather a mess on the floor and he came to clean the floor for us so that it wouldn't look so bad when Mrs. Kennedy went in. And then Mrs. Kennedy wanted to be alone with him after the priests left, so we all came out and sat there outside and she was alone with him in the trauma room, and we didn't go in any more after that.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see him at any time after that?

Miss BOWRON. No, sir---only when they were wheeling him out in the coffin.

Mr. SPECTER. What doctors were present during the time he was being treated

Miss BOWRON. Dr. Carrico and---who else was there---there were so many.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall any of the names?

Miss BOWRON. I don't.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there any other nurses present other than those you have already mentioned?

Miss BOWRON. Miss Standridge, Jeanette Standridge came in, Mrs. Nelson--- the supervisor.

Mr. SPECTER. Any other nurses present there?

Miss BOWRON. Not that I could say, sir---I don't know the name of any.

Mr. SPECTER. While the doctors were working on President Kennedy, did you ever have any opportunity to observe his neck?

Miss BOWRON. No; I didn't, until afterwards..

Mr. SPECTER. Until after what?

Miss BOWRON. Until after they had pronounced him dead and we cleaned up and removed the trach tube, and indeed we were really too shocked to really take much notice.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever see his neck prior to the time you removed the trach tube?

Miss BOWRON. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, did you personally participate in removing President Kennedy's body from the stretcher?

Miss BOWRON. No, sir---I didn't touch him. We held him with the sheet.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you present when his body was removed from the stretcher?

Miss BOWRON. Yes; I was.

Mr. SPECTER. And did you observe the stretcher from which his body was removed to be the same stretcher that he had been brought into trauma room No. 1

Miss BOWRON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. That's the stretcher you took out there for him?

Miss BOWRON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And what sheets were present on the stretcher or in the adjacent area used in the care of President Kennedy?

Miss BOWRON. The sheets that had already been on the stretcher when we took it out with the President on. When we came back after all the work had been done on him---so that Mrs. Kennedy could have a look before he was, you know, really moved into the coffin. We wrapped some extra sheets around his head so it wouldn't look so bad and there were some sheets on the floor so that nobody would step in the blood. Those were put down during all the work that was going on so the doctors wouldn't slip.

Mr. SPECTER. What was done with all of the sheets on the stretcher and on floor area there?

Miss BOWRON. They were all gathered up and put into a linen scape.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you gather them up yourself?

Miss BOWRON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER All of them?

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Miss BOWRON. Yes; with the help of Miss Henchliffe.

Mr. SPECTER. And did the two of you put them in the linen hamper?

Miss BOWRON. Yes; I put them in the linen hamper myself.

Mr. SPECTER. What was done with the stretcher then?

Miss BOWRON. The stretcher was then wheeled across into trauma room No.2 which was empty.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there anything on the stretcher at all when it was wheeled into trauma room No. 2?

Miss BOWRON. Not that we noticed, except the rubber mattress that was left on it.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you have noticed anything had anything been on that stretcher ?

Miss BOWRON. Yes; I think so.

Mr. SPECTER. And where was the stretcher when you last saw it?

Miss BOWRON. Being wheeled across into trauma room 2.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, I am going to show you three photostatic copies of newspaper stories which I will ask the Court Reporter to mark Bowron Exhibit Nos. 2, 3 and 4.

(Instruments referred to marked by the Reporter as Bowron Exhibit Nos. 2, 3, and 4, for identification.)

Mr. SPECTER. Will you look at those and tell me whether or not those are photostatic copies of newspaper accounts of your story of this assassination day?

Miss BOWRON. They are photostatic copies of the articles that appeared in the newspapers, but they are not all my story.

Mr. SPECTER. What newspapers did they appear in?

Miss BOWRON. I believe this is the "Observer".

Mr. SPECTER. You are referring to BX Number 2 and what city is that published in?

Miss BOWRON. London.

Mr. SPECTER. And BX Number 3 came from where?

Miss BOWRON. I think that this was "The Mail---The Daily Mail".

Mr. SPECTER. Appearing in what city?

Miss BOWRON. It appears in all cities. It is a national newspaper.

Mr. SPECTER. In England?

Miss BOWRON. Yes; it is prepared in England.

Mr. SPECTER. And how about BX-4?

Miss BOWRON. Well, this I think was "The Mirror" I think.

Mr. SPECTER. What city is The Mirror published in?

Miss BOWRON. That is a national newspaper.

Mr. SPECTER. Appearing in England?

Miss BOWRON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Were there any stories in any other newspapers about you and your participation in .the events of the day at Parkland?

Miss BOWRON. I believe there was one---I think it was an Australian paper and Mrs. Nelson received a letter from there with an article and which was the same as I think---as this one.

Mr. SPECTER. BX-4?

Miss BOWRON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And does that constitute all the stories which appeared about your participation in this event?

Miss BOWRON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, will you state briefly the circumstances under which this information was obtained, if you know?

Miss BOWRON. Mrs. Nelson spoke to me and told me that there had been two English reporters in Dallas who had been asking about me, and she told them where to get in touch with me, and the next day they came to the emergency room and wanted to speak to me and I said I couldn't tell them anything other than I was from England, gave them my home address, and the fact that I had been present and I was the one who went out to the car and brought the President in and being with him until they finished, and that was all that I told them.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you give them any information beyond that?

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Miss BOWRON. No, sir; and they told me that there would probably be some English reporters calling on my parents at home, and I am the only child and my mother worries, so I called home the next---that night and told my parents that I had been on duty and that there would probably be some reporters calling on them, and they weren't to worry about it but they weren't to say anything that except that I had been on duty and that was all.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you been interviewed by any representative of the Federal Government prior to today?

Miss BOWRON. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. By whom?

Miss BOWRON. I don't really know-he was an FBI agent.

Mr. SPECTER. And when was that?

Miss BOWRON. It was a week or two, I think, after the assassination.

Mr. SPECTER. And what did he ask you and what did you tell him?

Miss BOWRON. He asked us more or less the same questions you have asked us.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you tell him?

Miss BOWRON. The same as I told you.

Mr. SPECTER. When you say "us", whom do you mean by "us"?

Miss BOWRON. Mrs. Nelson was there and Miss Henchliffe and myself.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you talked to any other representatives of the Federal Government prior to today?

Miss BOWRON. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And did I discuss with you the purpose of the deposition and the nature of the questions that I would ask you immediately before we went on the record with this being taken down by the Court Reporter?

Miss BOWRON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And did you give me the same information which you have put on the record here today?

Miss BOWRON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add that you think might be helpful in any way to the Commission?

Miss BOWRON. Yes. When we were doing a cutdown on the President's left arm, his gold watch was in the way and they broke it---you know, undid it and it was slipping down and I just dropped it off of his hand and put it in my pocket and forgot completely about it until his body was being taken out of the emergency room and then I realized, and ran out to give it to one of the Secret Service men or anybody I could find and found this Mr. Wright.

Mr. SPECTER. Was that the same day?

Miss BOWRON. Yes--he had only just gone through O.B.---I was just a few feet behind him.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you think of anything else that might be of assistance to the Commission?

Miss BOWRON. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much for coming, Miss Bowron.

Miss BOWRON. Thank you.

Mr. SPECTER. Thank you a lot.

Miss BOWRON. All right, thank you.

Margaret M. Henchliffe

Page 139

TESTIMONY OF MARGARET M. HENCHLIFFE

The testimony of Margaret M. Henchliffe. was taken at 2 p.m., on March 21, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. SPECTER. Miss Henchliffe, the purpose of our asking you to come in today is in connection with the investigation being conducted by the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. The Commission has not written to you because, we have learned from Mrs. Doris Nelson in the deposition

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taken yesterday that you have some information of value to provide to us so that the regular procedure has not been followed of sending you a copy of the Executive order or of the resolution concerning the procedures of the taking of testimony.

Permit me to make those documents available to you. (Handed instruments to the Witness Henchliffe.)

Let me say that since yesterday I have contacted Mr. J. Lee Rankin, General Counsel, in Washington and he has authorized the taking of this deposition by letter, which I received today, so that it has been authorized, and the real question I have with you is whether it is all right with you to provide us with the information you have today, as opposed to sometime next week after you have had the 3 days' notice which you are entitled to if you want it?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. It is all right with me.

Mr. SPECTER. Is it all right with you to proceed and have your deposition taken today ?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you shall give before this Commission as it is holding deposition proceedings now will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you state your full name, please?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Margaret M. Henchliffe.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your occupation or profession?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. I am a nurse, registered nurse.

Mr. SPECTER. And where are you employed?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Parkland Memorial Hospital.

Mr. SPECTER. And where were you employed on November 22, 1963?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Parkland Memorial Hospital.

Mr. SPECTER. And were you notified on that date that the President was on his way to the hospital?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. No, sir; I didn't know it at the time until later.

Mr. SPECTER. When did you first learn about it. if at all?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. I found out who it was when I went out to get blood.

Mr. SPECTER. About what time of day was that?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Well, I guess it was about 2 ,minutes after he came in.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe him at some place in the hospital?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. I was working with him in the emergency room.

Mr. SPECTER. Had he arrived in the emergency room when you first arrived at the site of the emergency room?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Do what?

Mr. SPECTER. Were you in the area of the emergency room before he came there?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see him actually wheeled into the emergency room?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Yes; in fact, I helped wheel him on into trauma room 1.

Mr. SPECTER. And, where was he when you first saw him?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. He was between trauma rooms 1 and 2.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see him when he was brought into the hospital itself?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. At the emergency entrance---no. It was after he came into the emergency room.

Mr. SPECTER. He came into the emergency area?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And then you saw him and helped wheel him, you say, into the emergency room No. 1?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And who else was present at the time you first saw him when he had just come into the emergency area?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Let me see, I think Dr. Carrico was there-he was there very shortly after--afterwards.

Mr. SPECTER. He was there when you arrived? Or arrived shortly after you did?

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Miss HENCHLIFFE. Well, actually I went in ahead of the cart with him and I was the first one in with him, and just in a minute, or seconds, Dr. Carrico came in.

Mr. SPECTER. And what other doctors arrived, if any?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Oh, gee. Let's see---there was Dr. Baxter, Dr. Perry, and you want all of them that were in the room?

Mr. SPECTER. If you can remember them.

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Dr. Kemp Clark, Dr. Jenkins, Dr. Peters, Dr. Crenshaw, and there was some woman anesthetist that I don't know which--who it was.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe to be the President's condition when you first saw him?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. I saw him breathe a couple of times and that was all.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see any wound anywhere on his body?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Yes; he was very bloody, his head was very bloody when I saw him at the time.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever see any wound in any other part of his body?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. When I first saw him---except his head.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see any wound on any other part of his body?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Yes; in the neck.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe it, please?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. It was just a little hole in the middle of his neck.

Mr. SPECTER. About how big a hole was it?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. About as big around as the end of my little finger.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever had any experience with bullet holes?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And what did that appear to you to be?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. An entrance bullet hole it looked to me like.

Mr. SPECTER. Could it have been an exit bullet hole?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. I have never seen an exit bullet hole I don't remember seeing one that looked like that.

Mr. SPECTER. What were the characteristics of the hole?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. It was just a little round---just a little round hole, just a little round jagged-looking---jagged a little bit.

Mr. SPECTER. What experience have you had in observing bullet holes, Miss Henchliffe?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Well, we take care of a lot of bullet wounds down there--I don't know how many a year.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever had any formal studies of bullet holes?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Oh, no; nothing except my experience in the emergency room.

Mr. SPECTER. In what?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. In the emergency room is all.

Mr. SPECTER. What was done to the President after he arrived at the emergency room?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Well the first thing, his endotracheal tube was inserted.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you present all the time he was in the emergency room?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Except when I left out to get blood.

Mr. SPECTER. And how long were you gone?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Oh, about 3 minutes or so--3 or 4 minutes.

Mr. SPECTER. And were you present when he was pronounced dead?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. What was done with the President's body after he was pronounced to be dead?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Well, after the last rites were said, we then undressed him and cleaned him up and wrapped him up in sheets until the coffin was brought.

Mr. SPECTER. And after the coffin arrived, what was done with his body?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. He was placed in the coffin.

Mr. SPECTER. What had he been on up until that time?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. An emergency room cart.

Mr. SPECTER. And is that also described as a stretcher?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. A stretcher---yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you describe what this stretcher looked like?

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Miss HENCHLIFFE. Well, how do you describe a stretcher---it's just a long----

Mr. SPECTER. Made of metal?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Yes; it's made of metal.

Mr. SPECTER. On roller wheels?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Roller wheels with a rubber mattress on it, rubber covered mattress on it.

Mr. SPECTER. And after he was taken off of the stretcher, what was left on the stretcher at that time?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Just some sheets and I guess there were some dirty syringes and needles laying on it that we picked up.

Mr. SPECTER. That you picked up---where were they placed?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. We placed them on a tray and took them all out to the utility room.

Mr. SPECTER. How many sheets were there on the stretcher?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Well, I am really not sure---there was probably about two or three.

Mr. SPECTER. And in what position were they all on the stretcher after President Kennedy's body was removed

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Well, one was covering the whole mattress and there was one or two that we had left just under his head, that had been placed under his head.

Mr. SPECTER. And what was done with those sheets?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. They were all rolled up and taken to the dirty linen hamper.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know who took those to the dirty linen hamper?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. To the best of my knowledge, the orderly.

Mr. SPECTER. And who was he?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. David Sanders---is that his name?

Mr. SPECTER. And what was done with the stretcher?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. It was rolled into the room across the hall.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you actually see the stretcher that President Kennedy was on rolled into the room across the hall?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And into which room was it rolled?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Room 2.

Mr. SPECTER. What was that?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Room 2.

Mr. SPECTER. Emergency room No. 2?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And, when it was rolled into emergency room 2, were the sheets still all on, or were they off at that time?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. I believe they were off.

Mr. SPECTER. Is it possible that the stretcher that Mr. Kennedy was on was rolled with the sheets on it down into the area near the elevator?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you sure of that?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. I am positive of that.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you anything to add that you think might be helpful to the Commission?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. No, sir; I don't think of anything.

Mr. SPECTER. Did I talk to you about the purpose of the Commission and the same questions that I have been asking and the answers that you have been giving for a few minutes before the Court reporter came in to take this down in shorthand?

Miss HENCHLIFFE.

Mr. SPECTER. And did you give me the same information at that time?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. To the best of my ability.

Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much for coming.

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Okay.

(At this point the witness, Henchliffe, was thereupon excused from the deposing room.)

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(In approximately 3 minutes thereafter the witness returned to the deposing room and the deposition continued as follows:)

Mr. SPECTER. Let me ask you a couple of questions more, Miss Henchliffe, one other question, or two, before you go.

Was the wound on the front of the neck surrounded by any blood?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there any blood at all in that area?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. What was there about the wound, if you recall anything special, which gave you the impression it was an entrance wound?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Well, it was just a small wound and wasn't jagged like most of the exit bullet wounds that I have seen.

Mr. SPECTER. If there was a high-powered rifle, or a high-powered rifle was going at a fast speed, as fast as 2,000 feet per second, which encountered only soft tissue in the body, would you have sufficient knowledge to know whether or not the appearance of that hole would be consistent with an exit wound?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Well, from some information I received in talking to someone about guns later on, they said that this is possible. But you have a small exit wound---you could have a small exit wound.

Mr. SPECTER. Under what circumstances?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. As you described---a very fast bullet that didn't hit anything but soft tissue going through.

Mr. SPECTER. And do you have any other source of information or basis for having an opinion whether it was an entrance wound or an exit wound other than that source of information you just described, plus your general experience here at Parkland as a nurse?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. How long have you been at Parkland as a nurse?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Well, I have had emergency room experience for about 5 years here and a couple of years at Baylor Hospital.

Mr. SPECTER. And is that the total sum of your experience?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. In the emergency room. what other experience have you had besides emergency room experience.

Miss HENCLIFFE. Well, in the operating room here

Mr. SPECTER. How long have you had operating room experience here?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. 3 years.

Mr. SPECTER. How long have you been a registered nurse altogether?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. 12 years--almost 12 years.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is the source of information about the appearance of an exit wound from a high-powered gun which you have just described?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. I don't remember who I was talking to now. I was just talking to someone one day about gunshots and after this-report came out that said that any high-powered gun that this could happen.

Mr. SPECTER. That it could be an exit wound which looked very much like an entrance wound with the missile striking nothing but soft tissue?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything else to add?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. No.

Mr. SPECTER Thank you very much.

Miss HENCHLIFFE. All right.

Doris Mae Nelson

Page 143

TESTIMONY OF DORIS MAE NELSON

The testimony of Doris Mae Nelson was taken on March 20, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. SPECTER. Mrs. Nelson, this is Miss Oliver, the court reporter, and will you raise your right hand and take the oath?

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Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give in this proceeding will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mrs. NELSON. I do.

Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that Mrs. Doris Nelson is appearing to testify in this deposition proceeding conducted by the President's Commission on -the Assassination of President Kennedy to provide whatever facts, if any, she may know concerning the treatment received by President Kennedy and Governor Connally at Parkland Memorial Hospital on November 22, 1963.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you state your full name for the record, please?

Mrs. NELSON. Doris Mae Nelson. Do you want my maiden name?

Mr. SPECTER. Fine, yes; what is your maiden name?

Mrs. NELSON. Morris, M--o-r-r-i-s [spelling].

Mr. SPECTER. Mrs. Nelson, have you had an opportunity to view the joint resolution of the 88th Congress and the Executive order which established the President's Commission?

Mrs. NELSON. Yes; I read it yesterday.

Mr. SPECTER. And have you had an opportunity to view the resolution of the President's Commission covering questioning of witnesses by members of the Commission staff?

Mrs. NELSON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And are you willing to be questioned today concerning this matter, even though you have not had 3 days' notice?

Mrs. NELSON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Therefore waiving the right which you have, a 3 days' notice under the resolution?

Mrs. NELSON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your occupation or profession?

Mrs. NELSON. I am a registered nurse, supervisor of the emergency room at Parkland Memorial Hospital.

Mr. SPECTER. And how long have you been so occupied?

Mrs. NELSON. A year and 6 months as supervisor of the emergency room.

Mr. SPECTER. What were your duties in a general way on November 22, 1963?

Mrs. NELSON. I was primarily responsible for assigning personnel in the treatment of the injured patients and carrying out security measures with the Secret Service.

Mr. SPECTER. What notification, if any, did 'you receive on that date concerning injuries to President Kennedy?

Mrs. NELSON. I received a phone call approximately 3 to 5 minutes prior to their arrival, from the telephone operator, stating that the President had been shot and was being brought to the emergency room.

Mr. SPECTER. What action after that did you take in preparing for the President's arrival?

Mrs. NELSON. I immediately took the surgical resident into trauma room No.1, notified him of the incident, and asked the also told the head nurse that the President had been shot and was being brought to the emergency room.

Then, I went into trauma room 2, after the head nurse had told me that trauma room 1 was set up for any emergency, and proceeded to open a bottle of intravenous fluid and set it up for an emergency situation.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you know at that time that anyone else had been injured?

Mrs. NELSON. No; we were not notified as to anyone else being injured.

Mr. SPECTER. What occurred with respect to the arrival of any injured party at Parkland Memorial Hospital thereafter?

Mrs. NELSON. As I walked out-of trauma room No. 2 I heard someone calling for stretchers and an orderly ran back into the area and got a stretcher and ran out of the door, and a few seconds later Governor Connally, who at that time I did not. know who it was but recognized him as not being the President, arrived and I directed them into trauma room 2.

Mr. SPECTER. Did the orderly take out one stretcher, or was more than one Stretcher taken out?

Mrs. NELSON. I do not know exactly how many stretchers were taken out at the time because I was not out at that area.

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Mr. SPECTER. Did another stretcher come into the area?

Mrs. NELSON. Yes; immediately behind the Governor another stretcher was brought back into the emergency room and on this stretcher was President Kennedy.

Mr. SPECTER How were you able to identify President Kennedy?

Mrs. NELSON. Well, I could look and see him and tell that it was him.

Mr. SPECTER. What part did you see?

Mrs. NELSON. The---mainly his head.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there any coat covering his face?

Mrs. NELSON. There was a coat thrown across the top of him, not completely covering his face, and Mrs. Kennedy---do you want me to tell about Mrs. Kennedy and the flowers?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes; continue. Yes; in answering the questions, Mrs. Nelson, feel perfectly free to make as full an answer to the question--I hesitate to have you stop, so that the record we make will appear continuous and everything may be recorded fully for our record purposes.

Mrs. NELSON. Mrs. Kennedy was walking beside the stretcher and the roses that she had been given at the airport were lying on top of the President and her hat was also lying on top of the President as he was brought into the emergency room.

Mr. SPECTER. Where was he then taken?

Mrs. NELSON. He was immediately taken into trauma room 1.

Mr. SPECTER. And who, if anyone, was present at that time to attend him in a medical way?

Mrs. NELSON. Dr. Carrico, a surgical resident was there at the time that he was brought in, and Dr. Perry, an associate professor of surgery arrived shortly thereafter, and several doctors arrived, Dr. Baxter, associate professor of surgery, Dr. Kemp Clark, professor of neurosurgery and chairman of the department; Dr. Bashour--

Mr. SPECTER Spell, please.

Mrs. NELSON. B-a-s-h-o-u-r (spelling), chairman of the Department of Cardiology, and several other doctors who I cannot recall all the names at the present time.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you present inside of the emergency room where President Kennedy was taken?

Mrs. NELSON. When what?

Mr. SPECTER. Were you in there at the time they were treating him, caring for him at any time?

Mrs. NELSON. On one occasion I went into the room and this was mainly to ask Mrs. Kennedy if she had rather wait out in the hallway rather than in the room where they were treating the President, and I was told by the Secret Service agent that she may stay in there if she wished.

Mr. SPECTER. Is there any table, or was there any table in the emergency room to which President Kennedy was taken that he could be placed on from the stretcher?

Mrs. NELSON. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Is it the normal situation to have no table present in the emergency room?

Mrs. NELSON. The only one there is in case an ambulance should bring a patient in, but if a patient comes in the emergency room on a stretcher, then the stretcher that is in there is removed. Then the patient remains on the same stretcher that he comes into the emergency room on.

Mr. SPECTER. And was there a stretcher in the emergency room at the time President Kennedy was taken in on a second stretcher?

Mrs. NELSON. It was taken out when they wheeled it in.

Mr. SPECTER. Were there any sheets on the stretcher that President Kennedy was on?

Mrs. NELSON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. After President Kennedy was taken off of the stretcher, did you have occasion to observe that stretcher?

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Mrs. NELSON. Yes; the stretcher was stripped by the nursing personnel working in the room and the stretcher was moved across from trauma room 1 to trauma room 2 in order to get the stretcher out of the room.

Mr. SPECTER. What personnel stripped the stretcher?

Mrs. NELSON. Margaret Henchliffe, H-e-n-c-h-l-i-f-f-e [spelling], and Diana Bowron, D-i-a-n-a B-o-w-r-o-n [spelling].

Mr. SPECTER. Did you actually observe Diana Bowron or Margaret Henchliffe strip the stretcher?

Mrs. NELSON. No; I did not. This was the report that I received afterwards

Mr. SPECTER. From whom did you receive that report?

Mrs. NELSON. From these two nurses.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see the stretcher after it was stripped in the emergency room to which President Kennedy was taken?

Mrs. NELSON. No, I saw it after it was wheeled from trauma room 1 to trauma room 2, because I was standing there at the doorway between the two rooms with the Secret Service Police.

Mr. SPECTER. But it was actually in trauma room 1?

Mrs. NELSON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. As it was being wheeled out to trauma room 2 and at the time it was being wheeled out, was there any sheet on it at all---

Mrs. NELSON. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Rolled up on it in any way at all?

Mrs. NELSON. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see where the stretcher was then placed?

Mrs. NELSON. Yes, it was put into trauma room 2.

Mr. SPECTER. Where was President Kennedy's body at that time?

Mrs. NELSON. It was in---it had been placed in a casket in trauma room 1.

Mr. SPECTER. And was the casket on any sort of an object or was it on the floor or what?

Mrs. NELSON. It was on a form of roller---type table.

Mr. SPECTER. And did---do you know what President Kennedy's body was in, if anything, at that time?

Mrs. NELSON. Yes, one of the nurses, Miss Hutton, came out and said that the President was having extensive bleeding from the head and they had wrapped four sheets around it but it was still oozing through, so I sent her to the second floor to obtain a mattress cover, a plastic mattress cover, to put in the casket prior to putting his body in the casket, so the mattress cover was placed in the casket and I did not see this happen, but this is how it was explained to me by the nurse, and the plastic was placed on the mattress cover and the cover was around the mattress.

Mr. SPECTER. Which nurse explained that to you?

Mrs. NELSON. Miss Bowron and Miss Henchliffe.

Mr. SPECTER. And what was done with the sheets which had been used to absorb the blood from the President's body?

Mrs. NELSON. Well, there were approximately four sheets wrapped around him and the remaining sheets that were on the stretcher were pulled up and thrown in the linen hamper, according to Miss Bowron and Miss Henchliffe.

Mr. SPECTER. And where is that linen hamper located?

Mrs. NELSON. That linen hamper is located in the utility room area of the emergency room, which is just outside of the trauma room area.

Mr. SPECTER. And what floor is that on?

Mrs. NELSON. On the ground floor of the hospital.

Mr. SPECTER. What was done with Governor Connally?

Mrs. NELSON. Governor Connally was in the emergency room for a very short period, approximately 15 to 20 minutes, at which time he had chest tubes inserted, intravenous fluid started, anesthesia or oxygen given to him, and he was taken immediately from the emergency room to the operating room accompanied by several doctors.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see him inside trauma room No. 2?

Mrs. NELSON. Yes; I did

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Mr. SPECTER. And did you observe him when he was taken out of trauma room No. 2?

Mrs. NELSON. Yes, I saw him when he went upstairs to the operating room.

Mr. SPECTER. And how did he get upstairs to the operating room?

Mrs. NELSON. On a stretcher carried by several of the doctors. Miss Standridge went in front and opened doorways and went to the elevator. I could not see her at the elevator but this is what she told me.

Mr. SPECTER. How far could you see her?

Mrs. NELSON. Oh, approximately 30 feet.

Mr. SPECTER. And who is Miss Standridge?

Mrs. NELSON. Head nurse in the emergency room.

Mr. SPECTER. What is her first name?

Mrs. NELSON. Jeanette.

Mr. SPECTER. You say the stretcher was carried?

Mrs. NELSON. Well, it was wheeled.

Mr. SPECTER. And what does the stretcher look like that Governor Connally was on?

Mrs. NELSON. Well, there are no specific details, it's an average type of movable four-wheel stretcher, made out of metal, with a plastic mattress on the stretcher. It has an elevation between---on the sides, so that the---I don't know how to explain exactly.

Mr. SPECTER. A bumper-type effect?

Mrs. NELSON. It has a bumper on the side.

Mr. SPECTER. Is there a tray underneath the place where the body was resting?

Mrs. NELSON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And is that the same general description of a stretcher that President Kennedy was brought in on?

Mrs. NELSON. Yes; they were the same type.

Mr. SPECTER. Mrs. Nelson, I'm going to show you a four-page statement which is marked "Activities of Doris Nelson, R.N., beginning 12 noon, Friday, November 22, 1963," after I ask that it be marked as an exhibit in connection with this deposition.

(Reporter marked the instrument referred to as Nelson Exhibit No. 1.)

Mr. SPECTER. Is this a photostatic copy of the statement which you gave to Mr. Jack Price, the administrator of the hospital, concerning your activities on November 22, 1963, as they pertain to this matter?

Mrs. NELSON. Yes; it is.

Mr. SPECTER. And are the facts set forth heroin true and correct to the best of your knowledge, information and belief?

Mrs. NELSON. Yes; they are.

Mr. SPECTER. Did I meet with you for a few moments before we started this deposition and explain the purpose of the proceeding?

Mrs. NELSON. Yes; you did.

Mr. SPECTER. Did I ask you the same questions which we have discussed here during the course of my questioning before the court reporter?

Mrs. NELSON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much for providing this deposition to us.

Mrs. NELSON. You are quite welcome.

Mr. SPECTER. Off the record.

(Discussion off the record between Mr. Specter and the witness, Mrs. Doris Nelson.)

Mr. SPECTER. Back on the record, just a minute.

Mrs. Nelson, I will ask you if you would sign the end of this statement here, that it is your statement?

Mrs. NELSON. (Signed statement referred to.)

Mr. SPECTER. And are you willing to waive a requirement, if it is any formal requirement, as to the signing of this deposition?

Mrs. NELSON. Yes; I am.

Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much.

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Charles Jack Price

Page 148

TESTIMONY OF CHARLES JACK PRICE

The testimony of Charles Jack Price was taken at 4:50 p.m., on March 25, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that C. Jack Price is present to have his deposition taken in connection with the inquiry of the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy, which is concerned with the medical care rendered at Parkland Memorial Hospital to President John F. Kennedy and to Governor John B. Connally.

Authorization has been obtained to take the deposition of Mr. Price and he has had access to the copy of the Executive order creating the President's Commission---

Mr. PRICE. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And the rules relating to the taking of depositions of witnesses. Is it satisfactory with you to have your deposition taken without having the 3-day waiting period between the request and the taking of the deposition?

Mr. PRICE. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you stand up, Mr. Price, and raise your right hand?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give before the President's Commission and in this deposition proceeding will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but-the truth, so help you God?

Mr. PRICE. I do.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you state your full name for the record, please?

Mr. PRICE. Charles Jack Price.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is your official title here?

Mr. PRICE. Administrator, Dallas County Hospital district, comprised of Parkland Memorial Hospital and Woodlawn Hospital.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Price, in connection with your duties at Parkland Memorial Hospital, did you request that all of the individuals who participated in the care and treatment of President Kennedy and Governor Connally, or at least those who were principally concerned with that treatment, prepare and submit reports to you concerning that treatment?

Mr. PRICE. Yes; through Dr. Kemp Clark, who is chairman of our medical records committee.

Mr. SPECTER. And where have those records been kept after submission through Dr. Kemp Clark?

Mr. PRICE. The records were brought directly to my office. In fact, some of the records were written in my office and since that time have been kept in my custody, specifically under lock and key in my desk drawer.

Mr. SPECTER. I show you a document which has heretofore been marked as "Commission Exhibit No. 392," and I ask you if this constitutes all of the records of the doctors who examined and treated President Kennedy and Governor Connally which are in your possession, that is all the records which were made by the examining doctors?

Mr. PRICE. (Examining instrument referred to.) Do you want my comments as I go through this or do you want me to look through it and say "Yes," or "No"?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes; I would like to just be sure for the record that those are all of the records. You and I went through them the other day informally and at that time you supplemented my records to some extent, which I will put on the deposition record here.

Mr. PRICE. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Perhaps, before going to Commission Exhibit No. 392, permit me to have this photostatic copy marked Mr. Price's Exhibit No. 2.

(Instrument referred to marked by the reporter as Price Exhibit No. 2, for identification.)

Mr. SPECTER. And I ask you if this is a photostatic copy of a letter which was sent by Dr. Kemp Clark to Dr. Burkley, the President's private physician?

Mr. PRICE. It is.

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Mr. SPECTER. And with that, the summary of all the treatments performed at Parkland, which was prepared by Dr. Kemp Clark?

Mr. PRICE. That's right.

Mr. SPECTER. And below that, another summary sheet which bears the corrected notation, with your signature over it, that the President arrived at the emergency room at exactly 12:38 p.m., with 12:43 scratched out?

Mr. PRICE. That's correct.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, as you move through your file, permit me to also ask the reporter to mark as Mr. Price's Exhibit No. 3, an affidavit of Ulah McCoy, and I'll ask you if that is a copy of an original in your file?

(Instrument referred to marked by the reporter as Price Exhibit No. 3, for identification.)

Mr. PRICE. Yes; it is.

Mr. SPECTER. And I will ask her to mark as Mr. Price Exhibit No. 4 an affidavit of Doris Nelson and I'll ask you if that is a copy of a report in your possession ?

(Instrument referred to marked by the reporter as Price Exhibit No. 4, for identification. )

Mr. PRICE. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Your next report is one from Dr. M. T. Jenkins ?

Mr. PRICE. Professor and chairman of the department of anesthesiology.

Mr. SPECTER. And is that a copy of the document which you are looking at here?

Mr. PRICE. It is.

Mr. SPECTER. As part of Exhibit 392?

Mr. PRICE. That's right, and my next one is the statement of Dr. W. Kemp Clark.

Mr. SPECTER. And is that the original of a copy of which appears in this group of papers as Exhibit No. 392?

Mr. PRICE. Yes; it is. The next one that I have is the statement of Dr. Perry.

Mr. SPECTER. And is that the original of a copy of a statement which appears in Exhibit 392?

Mr. PRICE. Yes; the statement of Dr. Charles W. Baxter.

Mr. SPECTER. Is that the original of a copy which appears in Exhibit 392?

Mr. PRICE. Yes; it is; that's the statement of Dr. Carrico.

Mr. SPECTER. And is this the copy of the original of Dr. Carrico's statement?

Mr. PRICE. Yes; it is; and this is Dr. McClelland's statement.

Mr. SPECTER. I now show you a photostatic copy of what purports to be Dr. McClelland's statement, and is that a copy of the original in your file?

Mr. PRICE. Yes; it is.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your next report?

Mr. PRICE. My next report is Dr. Bashour's report.

Mr. SPECTER. And I show you a sheet in the group of papers marked Exhibit 392, and ask you if that is a photostatic copy of the original in your file?

Mr. PRICE. Yes; it is.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is next?

Mr. PRICE. My next one is the summary of Dr. Ronald C. Jones.

Mr. SPECTER.. Now, I'll ask you if this is a photostatic copy of the original of the statement by Dr. Ronald Jones which is in your file?

Mr. PRICE. May I see it, please?

Mr. SPECTER Yes.

(Handed instrument referred to to the witness.)

Mr. PRICE. Yes; it is.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, does that constitute all of the original records concerning the treatment of President John F. Kennedy in your file?

Mr. PRICE. With one exception---there is in the file that I have of Governor Connally the original of the transcript of "Registration of patients," which I furnished you a photostat of, our number being 01811.

Mr. SPECTER. And is this a photostatic copy of that registration of patients?

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Mr. PRICE. It is; and I think I reviewed it with you at the time I gave this to you---the transverse of patients No. 2 and No.

Mr. SPECTER. No. 5 is marked John Connally and No. 2 is John F. Kennedy, and how should that have been marked?

Mr. PRICE. The first patient in the hospital was Governor Connally.

Mr. SPECTER. So, he should have been No. 2?

Mr. PRICE. So, he should have been No. 2 as shown on the transcript.

Mr. SPECTER. And the President should have been noted as No. 5?

Mr. PRICE. 'The President should have been noted as No. 5.

(Instrument referred to marked by the reporter as Price Exhibit No. 5, for identification.)

Mr. PRICE. The simultaneous arrival at the ambulance dock would not affect the time as shown in the corrected copy that I gave you of the arrival there.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, turn if you will, to the records on Governor Connally and I will ask you if as part of Commission Exhibit 392, we have photostatic copies of the operative records starting, first with the operation performed by Dr. Shaw.

Mr. PRICE. I have the original of that but this is the complete medical charts that I have here.

Mr. SPECTER. As to this report alone, do you have the original in that record?

Mr. PRICE. Here it is.

Mr. SPECTER. And is this an exact photocopy of the original report prepared by Dr. Robert Shaw. the original of which appears in your record on Governor Connally?

Mr. PRICE. It is.

Mr. SPECTER. Is this an exact photostatic copy of the report of Dr. Charles Gregory?

Mr. PRICE. There has been since this photostat was made and forwarded to you-Dr. Gregory, prior to signing the official copy, did make some pencil corrections, and I will be glad to have the original photostated or Xeroxed now and give you a corrected copy if you would like?

Mr. SPECTER. That would be fine, and perhaps it would be faster just to read those changes into our record here. However, let's pursue the line of getting a Xerox copy. Now, turning to the report of Dr. Shires, is this a true and correct photostatic copy of Dr. Shires' report?

Mr. PRICE.. It is; it is a correct copy.

Mr. SPECTER Now, I show you a large group of papers which I am going to ask the reporter to mark Mr. Price Exhibits Nos. 6, 7. 8, and 9.

(Instruments referred to marked by the reporter as Price Exhibits Nos. 6. 7, 8, and 9, for identification.)

Mr. SPECTER. I now show you a group of papers, and as they are being marked, if you would take a look at them. Price Exhibit No. 6--I'll ask you if these are photostatic copies of reports which you have made available to me of originals which you have in your file made by various members of your staff. concerning the events of November 22, and November 24.

Mr. PRICE. Do you want these individually or as a group?

Mr. SPECTER. If you would identify the contents of the statement by the exhibit number which we have put on it, starting with the first numerical designation, would probably be the simplest. Exhibit 6 is what?

Mr. PRICE. Exhibit No. 6 is a Xerox copy of the floor plan of the emergency area. This is correct. The Exhibit No. 7, the statement is unsigned, but this is the Xerox copy of the summary submitted to me by my assistant, Mr. Steve Landregan.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is his position with the hospital?

Mr. PRICE. He is assistant administrator.

Mr. SPECTER. In charge of press relations among other things?

Mr. PRICE. In charge of press relations among other things.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is Exhibit No. 8?

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Mr. PRICE. Exhibit No. 8 is a Xerox copy of Peter Geilich's statement to me. Mr. Geilich is administrative assistant, with primary assignment over at the Woodlawn unit, and he is also the acting director of our outpatient clinic.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is Exhibit No. 9?

Mr. PRICE. Exhibit No. 9 is a summary of the activities of Robert Dutton, Bob Dutton, who is administrative assistant and is currently our evening administrator.

(Instruments marked as Price Exhibits Nos. 10 through 32 at this time, for identification.)

Mr. SPECTER. Exhibit 10 is what?

Mr. PRICE. Exhibit 10 is a summary of activities of Mrs. Carol Reddick, who is administrative aide. Exhibit No. 11 is a summary of activities of Mrs. Elizabeth L. Wright, our director of nursing service.

Mr. SPECTER. What is Exhibit No. 12?

Mr. PRICE. Exhibit No. 12 is a summary, of the activities of Diana Bowron, who is an emergency room nurse.

Mr. SPECTER. Exhibit No.

Mr. PRICE. Exhibit No. 13 is a summary of the activities of Sallie Lennon.

Mr. SPECTER. What is her position?

Mr. PRICE. She is a nurse.

Mr. SPECTER. I hand you Price Exhibit No. 14.

Mr. PRICE. This is a statement of the activities of C. Watkins, who is an R.N. in the emergency room.

Mr. SPECTER. And I. hand you Price Exhibit No. 15

Mr. PRICE. Exhibit No. 15 is a report of the activities of Faye Dean Shelby, and she is a nurse in the emergency room.

Mr. SPECTER. Price Exhibit No. 16?

Mr. PRICE. This is the activities of Era Lumpkin, an aide in the emergency area.

Mr. SPECTER. Price Exhibit No. 17?

Mr. PRICE. Exhibit No. 17 is a report on the activities of Jean Tarrant, who is an aide in the major medicine emergency room.

Mr. SPECTER. I now hand you Price Exhibit No. 18.

Mr. PRICE. Exhibit 18 is the activities of Frances Scott, who is assigned to the emergency room.

Mr. SPECTER. Exhibit No. 19?

Mr. PRICE. Exhibit No. 19 is the activities of Willie Haywood, who is an orderly in the emergency room.

Mr. SPECTER. I now hand you Price Exhibit No. 20.

Mr. PRICE. This is a summary of the activities of Bertha L. Lozano, who is a registered nurse in the emergency room.

Mr. SPECTER. Price Exhibit No. 21?

Mr. PRICE. Exhibit No. 21 is a summary of the activities of Pat Hutton, who is an aide in the emergency room.

Mr. SPECTER. I'll hand you Price Exhibit No. 22.

Mr. PRICE. I'm sorry, I said Hutton was an aide. She's an R.N. in registration a nurse.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is Exhibit No. 22?

Mr. PRICE. It is a summary of the activities of Shirley Randall, an aide in the emergency room.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is Price Exhibit No. 23?

Mr. PRICE. A summary of the activities of Rosa M. Majors, an aide in the emergency room.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is Price Exhibit 24?

Mr. PRICE. Price Exhibit 24 is a summary of the activities of Jill Pomeroy, who is a ward clerk in the emergency room.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is Price Exhibit No.

Mr. PRICE. A summary of the activities of David Sanders, who is an orderly in the emergency room.

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Mr. SPECTER. And what is Price Exhibit No. 26?

Mr. PRICE. Exhibit 26 is a summary of the activities of Tommy Dunn, who is an orderly in the emergency room.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is Price Exhibit No. 27?

Mr. PRICE. A summary of the activities of Joe Richards, an orderly in the emergency room.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is Price Exhibit No. 28?

Mr. PRICE. Exhibit No. 28 is a statement of the activities of Jeanette Stand-ridge, an R.N. in the emergency room.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is Price Exhibit 29?

Mr. PRICE. A summary of the activities of O. P. Wright, who is the personnel director and a director of hospital security, and reports from the individual guards under his supervision.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is Price Exhibit No. 30?

Mr. PRICE. A summary of the activities of Margaret Henchliffe, who is assigned to the emergency room.

Mr. SPECTER. What is Price Exhibit No. 31?

Mr. PRICE. A summary of the activities of Doris Nelson, who is the emergency room supervisor.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is Price Exhibit No. 32?

Mr. PRICE. A summary of the activities of Robert G. Holcomb, who is assistant administrator in charge of correlating the professional services of the hospital.

Mr. SPECTER. What is Price Exhibit No. 33?

Mr. PRICE. This is a summary of my personal impressions of the events that transpired on November 24.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is Price Exhibit 34?

Mr. PRICE. This is a summary of my activities at the office Saturday and Sunday, the 23d and 24th.

Mr. SPECTER. Are those all of the summaries of those who made reports to you?

Mr. PRICE. Yes; they are. These are primarily the summaries of individuals who were involved in the care of our late President, in the care of Governor Connally, and in the care of Oswald, who were requested to make these summaries to my office as their activities would not normally be stated on patients' charts or in other records of the hospital.

Mr. SPECTER. I now hand you Price Exhibit No. 35 and ask you if that is a photostatic copy of the report of Dr. Charles Gregory, after it was altered in a few minor respects as shown on the face of the record?

Mr. PRICE. Well, if I may change this terminology?

Mr. SPECTER. Sure.

Mr. PRICE. This is a copy of Dr. Charles Gregory's records as it appears in Governor Connally's charts, which he corrected prior to signing the transcript. What I was trying to say, or wanted to make clear, was that frequently in transcribing, the medical secretaries who transcribe operative records, they make mistakes, and I wanted to be sure that there was no suggestion that the record was altered, when what Dr. Gregory has done was to write in corrections that were noticed at the time he read it and signed it.

Mr. SPECTER. I understand it was transcribed, and when he reviewed it before signing it he noticed inaccuracies in the transcription.

Mr. PRICE. That's right. This is correct. Your phraseology is much better than mine.

Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much, Mr. Price.

Mr. PRICE. Thank you, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. That's all. I wanted to put all of these in the record, Jack, to show that they are duly authenticated by the appropriate custodian of the records.

Mr. PRICE. Well, I wanted to be sure that there was no hint that the record had been altered here.

Mr. SPECTER. Yes; I understand that. I think you are absolutely right on that. Thank you.

Mr. PRICE. All right. Thank you.

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BOWRON, Volume VI

TESTIMONY OF DIANA HAMILTON BOWRON

The testimony of Diana Hamilton Bowron was taken at 2:05 p.m., on March 24, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that Diana Bowron is present following a verbal request that she appear here to have her deposition taken. During the course of deposition proceedings on March 20 and March 21, it came to my attention that Miss Bowron would have information of value to the Commission, and authorization was provided through the General Counsel, J. Lee Rankin, for her deposition to be taken.

Miss Bowron, the President's Commission is investigating the assassination of President Kennedy and is interested in certain facts relating to his treatment and presence at Parkland Memorial Hospital, and we have asked you to appear here to testify concerning your knowledge of his presence here.

Now, I have shown you,. have I not, the Executive order appointing the Presidential Commission and the resolution authorizing the taking of testimony at depositions by Commission staff members, have I not?

Miss BOWRON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And are you willing to have your deposition taken today without 3 days' written notice, as we ordinarily provide?

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Miss BOWRON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. So, are you willing to waive that technical requirement?

Miss BOWRON. Yes; I am.

Mr. SPECTER. All right. Will you stand up and raise your right hand?

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give before the President's Commission in these deposition proceedings will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Miss BOWRON. I do.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your permanent residence address, Miss Bowron?

Miss BOWRON. 1107 Brockbank, Dallas 29, Tex.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you spell that street name and speak up more loudly?

Miss BOWRON. B-r-o-c-k-b-a-n-k [spelling].

Mr. SPECTER. Thank you. Are you a native of Dallas, or of some other area?

Miss BOWRON. I am a native of England.

Mr. SPECTER. And how long have you been in Dallas?

Miss BOWRON . Since August 4, 1963.

Mr. SPECTER. And what are the circumstances surrounding your employment here at Parkland Memorial Hospital?

Miss BOWRON. I answered an advertisement in August and came over on a year's contract and to work in the emergency room.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you a registered nurse?

Miss BOWRON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is your educational background?

Miss BOWRON. I went to private boarding school and to secondary school, and then I went through nurses' training for 3 years and 3 months in England. I finished in February of last year.

Mr. SPECTER. And how old are you at the present time?

Miss BOWRON. Twenty-two.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to render assistance to President Kennedy back on November 22, 1963?

Miss BOWRON. I did; yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you relate briefly the circumstances surrounding your being called in to assist in that case?

Miss. BOWRON. I was assigned to work in the minor medicine and surgery area and I was passing through major surgery and I heard over the intercom that they needed carts out at the emergency room entrance, so the orderly from the triage desk, which was passing through and he and I took one cart from major surgery and ran down the hall and by the cashier's desk, there were some men I assume were Secret Service men.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you know at that time whom you were going to aid?

Miss BOWRON. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. You later assumed they were Secret Service men?

Miss BOWRON. Yes, sir; and they encouraged us to run down to the door.

Mr. SPECTER. And did you have a stretcher with you at that time?

Miss BOWRON. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And was one stretcher or more than one stretcher being brought forward at that time?

Miss BOWRON. There was another stretcher being brought forward from the OB--GYN section.

Mr. SPECTER. That's the obstetrics and gynecology section?

Miss BOWMAN. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And were you wheeling one stretcher by yourself, or was someone helping?

Miss BOWRON. No; the orderly from the triage desk was helping us.

Mr. SPECTER. Was helping you ?

Miss BOWRON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Who was that?

Miss BOWRON. Joe---I've forgotten what his last name is, I'm sorry. I know his first name is Joe and he's on duty today.

Mr. SPECTER. And who was bringing the other stretcher?

Miss BOWRON. I don't know, sir, I heard afterwards that Dr. Midgett took one stretcher. I don't know who was assisting him.

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Mr. SPECTER. And what is Dr. Midgett's first name?

Miss BOWRON. Bill.

Mr. SPECTER. And, where did you take your stretcher?

Miss BOWRON. To the left-hand side of the car as you are facing it, and we had to move Governor Connally out first because he was in the front. We couldn't get to the back seat. While all the Secret Service men were moving Governor Connally I went around to the other side of the car to try to help with the President and then we got him onto the second cart and then took him straight over to trauma room 1.

Mr. SPECTER. Trauma room No. 1?

Miss BOWRON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And describe in a general way Governor Connally's condition when you first saw him?

Miss BOWRON. He was very pale, he was leaning forward and onto Mrs. Connally but apparently---I didn't notice very much---I was more concerned with the person in the back of the car---the President.

Miss BOWRON. He was very pale, he was lying across Mrs. Kennedy's knee and there seemed to be blood everywhere. When I went around to the other side of the car I saw the condition of his head.

Mr. SPECTER. You saw the condition of his what?

Miss BOWRON. The back of his head.

Mr. SPECTER. And what was that condition?

Miss BOWRON. Well, it was very bad---you know.

Mr. SPECTER. How many holes did you see?

Miss BOWRON. I just saw one large hole.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see a small bullet hole beneath that one large hole?

Miss BOWRON. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you notice any other wound on the President's body?

Miss BOWRON. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And what action did you take at that time, if any?

Miss BOWRON. I helped to lift his head and Mrs. Kennedy pushed me away and lifted his head herself onto the cart and so I went around back to the cart and walked off with it. We ran on with it to the trauma room and she ran beside us.

Mr. SPECTER. And who was in the trauma room when you arrived there?

Miss BOWRON. Dr. Carrico.

Mr. SPECTER. Where did Dr. Carrico join you?

Miss BOWRON. At the---I couldn't really tell you exactly, but it was inside major surgery. Miss Henchliffe, the other nurse who is assigned to major surgery, was in the trauma room already setting the I.V.'s---the intravenous bottles up.

Mr. SPECTER. And were there any other nurses present at that time when

the President arrived in the trauma area?

Miss BOWRON. I don't think so, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Were there any doctors present besides Dr. Carrico?

Miss BOWRON. I didn't notice anybody---there may have been.

Mr. SPECTER. What action did you observe Dr. Carrico take, if any?

Miss BOWRON. We tried to start an I.V. cutdown and I don't know whether it was his left or his right leg, and Miss Henchliffe and I cut off his clothing and then after that everybody just arrived at once and it was more or less everybody sort of helping everybody else. We opened the chest tube trays and the venesectron trays.

Mr. SPECTER. How long were you present in the emergency room No. 1?

Miss BOWRON. I was in there until they needed some blood, which was the second lot of blood. I went---ran out across to the blood bank and came back and went into the trauma room. By that time they had decided that he was dead, they said.

And then, we stayed in there with him and cleaned him up, removed all of his clothing and put them all together and Miss Henchliffe gave them to

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one of the Secret Service men, and we stayed with the body until the coffin came, and helped put him in there, and then we--

Mr. SPECTER When you say "we", whom do you mean by "we"?

Miss BOWRON. Miss Henchliffe and myself.

Mr. SPECTER. Anybody besides the two of you?

Miss BOWRON. Yes; there was an orderly called David Sanders who helped us to clean the floor, because there were leaves and sheets and everything was rather a mess on the floor and he came to clean the floor for us so that it wouldn't look so bad when Mrs. Kennedy went in. And then Mrs. Kennedy wanted to be alone with him after the priests left, so we all came out and sat there outside and she was alone with him in the trauma room, and we didn't go in any more after that.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see him at any time after that?

Miss BOWRON. No, sir---only when they were wheeling him out in the coffin.

Mr. SPECTER. What doctors were present during the time he was being treated

Miss BOWRON. Dr. Carrico and---who else was there---there were so many.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall any of the names?

Miss BOWRON. I don't.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there any other nurses present other than those you have already mentioned?

Miss BOWRON. Miss Standridge, Jeanette Standridge came in, Mrs. Nelson--- the supervisor.

Mr. SPECTER. Any other nurses present there?

Miss BOWRON. Not that I could say, sir---I don't know the name of any.

Mr. SPECTER. While the doctors were working on President Kennedy, did you ever have any opportunity to observe his neck?

Miss BOWRON. No; I didn't, until afterwards..

Mr. SPECTER. Until after what?

Miss BOWRON. Until after they had pronounced him dead and we cleaned up and removed the trach tube, and indeed we were really too shocked to really take much notice.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever see his neck prior to the time you removed the trach tube?

Miss BOWRON. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, did you personally participate in removing President Kennedy's body from the stretcher?

Miss BOWRON. No, sir---I didn't touch him. We held him with the sheet.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you present when his body was removed from the stretcher?

Miss BOWRON. Yes; I was.

Mr. SPECTER. And did you observe the stretcher from which his body was removed to be the same stretcher that he had been brought into trauma room No. 1

Miss BOWRON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. That's the stretcher you took out there for him?

Miss BOWRON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And what sheets were present on the stretcher or in the adjacent area used in the care of President Kennedy?

Miss BOWRON. The sheets that had already been on the stretcher when we took it out with the President on. When we came back after all the work had been done on him---so that Mrs. Kennedy could have a look before he was, you know, really moved into the coffin. We wrapped some extra sheets around his head so it wouldn't look so bad and there were some sheets on the floor so that nobody would step in the blood. Those were put down during all the work that was going on so the doctors wouldn't slip.

Mr. SPECTER. What was done with all of the sheets on the stretcher and on floor area there?

Miss BOWRON. They were all gathered up and put into a linen scape.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you gather them up yourself?

Miss BOWRON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER All of them?

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Miss BOWRON. Yes; with the help of Miss Henchliffe.

Mr. SPECTER. And did the two of you put them in the linen hamper?

Miss BOWRON. Yes; I put them in the linen hamper myself.

Mr. SPECTER. What was done with the stretcher then?

Miss BOWRON. The stretcher was then wheeled across into trauma room No.2 which was empty.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there anything on the stretcher at all when it was wheeled into trauma room No. 2?

Miss BOWRON. Not that we noticed, except the rubber mattress that was left on it.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you have noticed anything had anything been on that stretcher ?

Miss BOWRON. Yes; I think so.

Mr. SPECTER. And where was the stretcher when you last saw it?

Miss BOWRON. Being wheeled across into trauma room 2.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, I am going to show you three photostatic copies of newspaper stories which I will ask the Court Reporter to mark Bowron Exhibit Nos. 2, 3 and 4.

(Instruments referred to marked by the Reporter as Bowron Exhibit Nos. 2, 3, and 4, for identification.)

Mr. SPECTER. Will you look at those and tell me whether or not those are photostatic copies of newspaper accounts of your story of this assassination day?

Miss BOWRON. They are photostatic copies of the articles that appeared in the newspapers, but they are not all my story.

Mr. SPECTER. What newspapers did they appear in?

Miss BOWRON. I believe this is the "Observer".

Mr. SPECTER. You are referring to BX Number 2 and what city is that published in?

Miss BOWRON. London.

Mr. SPECTER. And BX Number 3 came from where?

Miss BOWRON. I think that this was "The Mail---The Daily Mail".

Mr. SPECTER. Appearing in what city?

Miss BOWRON. It appears in all cities. It is a national newspaper.

Mr. SPECTER. In England?

Miss BOWRON. Yes; it is prepared in England.

Mr. SPECTER. And how about BX-4?

Miss BOWRON. Well, this I think was "The Mirror" I think.

Mr. SPECTER. What city is The Mirror published in?

Miss BOWRON. That is a national newspaper.

Mr. SPECTER. Appearing in England?

Miss BOWRON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Were there any stories in any other newspapers about you and your participation in .the events of the day at Parkland?

Miss BOWRON. I believe there was one---I think it was an Australian paper and Mrs. Nelson received a letter from there with an article and which was the same as I think---as this one.

Mr. SPECTER. BX-4?

Miss BOWRON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And does that constitute all the stories which appeared about your participation in this event?

Miss BOWRON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, will you state briefly the circumstances under which this information was obtained, if you know?

Miss BOWRON. Mrs. Nelson spoke to me and told me that there had been two English reporters in Dallas who had been asking about me, and she told them where to get in touch with me, and the next day they came to the emergency room and wanted to speak to me and I said I couldn't tell them anything other than I was from England, gave them my home address, and the fact that I had been present and I was the one who went out to the car and brought the President in and being with him until they finished, and that was all that I told them.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you give them any information beyond that?

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Miss BOWRON. No, sir; and they told me that there would probably be some English reporters calling on my parents at home, and I am the only child and my mother worries, so I called home the next---that night and told my parents that I had been on duty and that there would probably be some reporters calling on them, and they weren't to worry about it but they weren't to say anything that except that I had been on duty and that was all.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you been interviewed by any representative of the Federal Government prior to today?

Miss BOWRON. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. By whom?

Miss BOWRON. I don't really know-he was an FBI agent.

Mr. SPECTER. And when was that?

Miss BOWRON. It was a week or two, I think, after the assassination.

Mr. SPECTER. And what did he ask you and what did you tell him?

Miss BOWRON. He asked us more or less the same questions you have asked us.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you tell him?

Miss BOWRON. The same as I told you.

Mr. SPECTER. When you say "us", whom do you mean by "us"?

Miss BOWRON. Mrs. Nelson was there and Miss Henchliffe and myself.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you talked to any other representatives of the Federal Government prior to today?

Miss BOWRON. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And did I discuss with you the purpose of the deposition and the nature of the questions that I would ask you immediately before we went on the record with this being taken down by the Court Reporter?

Miss BOWRON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And did you give me the same information which you have put on the record here today?

Miss BOWRON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add that you think might be helpful in any way to the Commission?

Miss BOWRON. Yes. When we were doing a cutdown on the President's left arm, his gold watch was in the way and they broke it---you know, undid it and it was slipping down and I just dropped it off of his hand and put it in my pocket and forgot completely about it until his body was being taken out of the emergency room and then I realized, and ran out to give it to one of the Secret Service men or anybody I could find and found this Mr. Wright.

Mr. SPECTER. Was that the same day?

Miss BOWRON. Yes--he had only just gone through O.B.---I was just a few feet behind him.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you think of anything else that might be of assistance to the Commission?

Miss BOWRON. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much for coming, Miss Bowron.

Miss BOWRON. Thank you.

Mr. SPECTER. Thank you a lot.

Miss BOWRON. All right, thank you.

Margaret M. Henchliffe

Page 139

TESTIMONY OF MARGARET M. HENCHLIFFE

The testimony of Margaret M. Henchliffe. was taken at 2 p.m., on March 21, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. SPECTER. Miss Henchliffe, the purpose of our asking you to come in today is in connection with the investigation being conducted by the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. The Commission has not written to you because, we have learned from Mrs. Doris Nelson in the deposition

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Nurse Diana Bowron Volume VI page 134-139

TESTIMONY OF DIANA HAMILTON BOWRON

The testimony of Diana Hamilton Bowron was taken at 2:05 p.m., on March 24, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that Diana Bowron is present following a verbal request that she appear here to have her deposition taken. During the course of deposition proceedings on March 20 and March 21, it came to my attention that Miss Bowron would have information of value to the Commission, and authorization was provided through the General Counsel, J. Lee Rankin, for her deposition to be taken.

Miss Bowron, the President's Commission is investigating the assassination of President Kennedy and is interested in certain facts relating to his treatment and presence at Parkland Memorial Hospital, and we have asked you to appear here to testify concerning your knowledge of his presence here.

Now, I have shown you,. have I not, the Executive order appointing the Presidential Commission and the resolution authorizing the taking of testimony at depositions by Commission staff members, have I not?

Miss BOWRON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And are you willing to have your deposition taken today without 3 days' written notice, as we ordinarily provide?

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Miss BOWRON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. So, are you willing to waive that technical requirement?

Miss BOWRON. Yes; I am.

Mr. SPECTER. All right. Will you stand up and raise your right hand?

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give before the President's Commission in these deposition proceedings will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Miss BOWRON. I do.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your permanent residence address, Miss Bowron?

Miss BOWRON. 1107 Brockbank, Dallas 29, Tex.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you spell that street name and speak up more loudly?

Miss BOWRON. B-r-o-c-k-b-a-n-k [spelling].

Mr. SPECTER. Thank you. Are you a native of Dallas, or of some other area?

Miss BOWRON. I am a native of England.

Mr. SPECTER. And how long have you been in Dallas?

Miss BOWRON . Since August 4, 1963.

Mr. SPECTER. And what are the circumstances surrounding your employment here at Parkland Memorial Hospital?

Miss BOWRON. I answered an advertisement in August and came over on a year's contract and to work in the emergency room.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you a registered nurse?

Miss BOWRON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is your educational background?

Miss BOWRON. I went to private boarding school and to secondary school, and then I went through nurses' training for 3 years and 3 months in England. I finished in February of last year.

Mr. SPECTER. And how old are you at the present time?

Miss BOWRON. Twenty-two.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to render assistance to President Kennedy back on November 22, 1963?

Miss BOWRON. I did; yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you relate briefly the circumstances surrounding your being called in to assist in that case?

Miss. BOWRON. I was assigned to work in the minor medicine and surgery area and I was passing through major surgery and I heard over the intercom that they needed carts out at the emergency room entrance, so the orderly from the triage desk, which was passing through and he and I took one cart from major surgery and ran down the hall and by the cashier's desk, there were some men I assume were Secret Service men.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you know at that time whom you were going to aid?

Miss BOWRON. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. You later assumed they were Secret Service men?

Miss BOWRON. Yes, sir; and they encouraged us to run down to the door.

Mr. SPECTER. And did you have a stretcher with you at that time?

Miss BOWRON. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And was one stretcher or more than one stretcher being brought forward at that time?

Miss BOWRON. There was another stretcher being brought forward from the OB--GYN section.

Mr. SPECTER. That's the obstetrics and gynecology section?

Miss BOWMAN. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And were you wheeling one stretcher by yourself, or was someone helping?

Miss BOWRON. No; the orderly from the triage desk was helping us.

Mr. SPECTER. Was helping you ?

Miss BOWRON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Who was that?

Miss BOWRON. Joe---I've forgotten what his last name is, I'm sorry. I know his first name is Joe and he's on duty today.

Mr. SPECTER. And who was bringing the other stretcher?

Miss BOWRON. I don't know, sir, I heard afterwards that Dr. Midgett took one stretcher. I don't know who was assisting him.

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Mr. SPECTER. And what is Dr. Midgett's first name?

Miss BOWRON. Bill.

Mr. SPECTER. And, where did you take your stretcher?

Miss BOWRON. To the left-hand side of the car as you are facing it, and we had to move Governor Connally out first because he was in the front. We couldn't get to the back seat. While all the Secret Service men were moving Governor Connally I went around to the other side of the car to try to help with the President and then we got him onto the second cart and then took him straight over to trauma room 1.

Mr. SPECTER. Trauma room No. 1?

Miss BOWRON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And describe in a general way Governor Connally's condition when you first saw him?

Miss BOWRON. He was very pale, he was leaning forward and onto Mrs. Connally but apparently---I didn't notice very much---I was more concerned with the person in the back of the car---the President.

Miss BOWRON. He was very pale, he was lying across Mrs. Kennedy's knee and there seemed to be blood everywhere. When I went around to the other side of the car I saw the condition of his head.

Mr. SPECTER. You saw the condition of his what?

Miss BOWRON. The back of his head.

Mr. SPECTER. And what was that condition?

Miss BOWRON. Well, it was very bad---you know.

Mr. SPECTER. How many holes did you see?

Miss BOWRON. I just saw one large hole.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see a small bullet hole beneath that one large hole?

Miss BOWRON. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you notice any other wound on the President's body?

Miss BOWRON. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And what action did you take at that time, if any?

Miss BOWRON. I helped to lift his head and Mrs. Kennedy pushed me away and lifted his head herself onto the cart and so I went around back to the cart and walked off with it. We ran on with it to the trauma room and she ran beside us.

Mr. SPECTER. And who was in the trauma room when you arrived there?

Miss BOWRON. Dr. Carrico.

Mr. SPECTER. Where did Dr. Carrico join you?

Miss BOWRON. At the---I couldn't really tell you exactly, but it was inside major surgery. Miss Henchliffe, the other nurse who is assigned to major surgery, was in the trauma room already setting the I.V.'s---the intravenous bottles up.

Mr. SPECTER. And were there any other nurses present at that time when

the President arrived in the trauma area?

Miss BOWRON. I don't think so, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Were there any doctors present besides Dr. Carrico?

Miss BOWRON. I didn't notice anybody---there may have been.

Mr. SPECTER. What action did you observe Dr. Carrico take, if any?

Miss BOWRON. We tried to start an I.V. cutdown and I don't know whether it was his left or his right leg, and Miss Henchliffe and I cut off his clothing and then after that everybody just arrived at once and it was more or less everybody sort of helping everybody else. We opened the chest tube trays and the venesectron trays.

Miss BOWRON. I was in there until they needed some blood, which was the second lot of blood. I went---ran out across to the blood bank and came back and went into the trauma room. By that time they had decided that he was dead, they said.

And then, we stayed in there with him and cleaned him up, removed all of his clothing and put them all together and Miss Henchliffe gave them to

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one of the Secret Service men, and we stayed with the body until the coffin came, and helped put him in there, and then we--

Mr. SPECTER When you say "we", whom do you mean by "we"?

Miss BOWRON. Miss Henchliffe and myself.

Mr. SPECTER. Anybody besides the two of you?

Miss BOWRON. Yes; there was an orderly called David Sanders who helped us to clean the floor, because there were leaves and sheets and everything was rather a mess on the floor and he came to clean the floor for us so that it wouldn't look so bad when Mrs. Kennedy went in. And then Mrs. Kennedy wanted to be alone with him after the priests left, so we all came out and sat there outside and she was alone with him in the trauma room, and we didn't go in any more after that.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see him at any time after that?

Miss BOWRON. No, sir---only when they were wheeling him out in the coffin.

Mr. SPECTER. What doctors were present during the time he was being treated

Miss BOWRON. Dr. Carrico and---who else was there---there were so many.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall any of the names?

Miss BOWRON. I don't.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there any other nurses present other than those you have already mentioned?

Miss BOWRON. Miss Standridge, Jeanette Standridge came in, Mrs. Nelson--- the supervisor.

Mr. SPECTER. Any other nurses present there?

Miss BOWRON. Not that I could say, sir---I don't know the name of any.

Mr. SPECTER. While the doctors were working on President Kennedy, did you ever have any opportunity to observe his neck?

Miss BOWRON. No; I didn't, until afterwards..

Mr. SPECTER. Until after what?

Miss BOWRON. Until after they had pronounced him dead and we cleaned up and removed the trach tube, and indeed we were really too shocked to really take much notice.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever see his neck prior to the time you removed the trach tube?

Miss BOWRON. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, did you personally participate in removing President Kennedy's body from the stretcher?

Miss BOWRON. No, sir---I didn't touch him. We held him with the sheet.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you present when his body was removed from the stretcher?

Miss BOWRON. Yes; I was.

Mr. SPECTER. And did you observe the stretcher from which his body was removed to be the same stretcher that he had been brought into trauma room No. 1

Miss BOWRON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. That's the stretcher you took out there for him?

Miss BOWRON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And what sheets were present on the stretcher or in the adjacent area used in the care of President Kennedy?

Miss BOWRON. The sheets that had already been on the stretcher when we took it out with the President on. When we came back after all the work had been done on him---so that Mrs. Kennedy could have a look before he was, you know, really moved into the coffin. We wrapped some extra sheets around his head so it wouldn't look so bad and there were some sheets on the floor so that nobody would step in the blood. Those were put down during all the work that was going on so the doctors wouldn't slip.

Mr. SPECTER. What was done with all of the sheets on the stretcher and on floor area there?

Miss BOWRON. They were all gathered up and put into a linen scape.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you gather them up yourself?

Miss BOWRON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER All of them?

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Miss BOWRON. Yes; with the help of Miss Henchliffe.

Mr. SPECTER. And did the two of you put them in the linen hamper?

Miss BOWRON. Yes; I put them in the linen hamper myself.

Mr. SPECTER. What was done with the stretcher then?

Miss BOWRON. The stretcher was then wheeled across into trauma room No.2 which was empty.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there anything on the stretcher at all when it was wheeled into trauma room No. 2?

Miss BOWRON. Not that we noticed, except the rubber mattress that was left on it.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you have noticed anything had anything been on that stretcher ?

Miss BOWRON. Yes; I think so.

Mr. SPECTER. And where was the stretcher when you last saw it?

Miss BOWRON. Being wheeled across into trauma room 2.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, I am going to show you three photostatic copies of newspaper stories which I will ask the Court Reporter to mark Bowron Exhibit Nos. 2, 3 and 4.

(Instruments referred to marked by the Reporter as Bowron Exhibit Nos. 2, 3, and 4, for identification.)

Mr. SPECTER. Will you look at those and tell me whether or not those are photostatic copies of newspaper accounts of your story of this assassination day?

Miss BOWRON. They are photostatic copies of the articles that appeared in the newspapers, but they are not all my story.

Mr. SPECTER. What newspapers did they appear in?

Miss BOWRON. I believe this is the "Observer".

Mr. SPECTER. You are referring to BX Number 2 and what city is that published in?

Miss BOWRON. London.

Mr. SPECTER. And BX Number 3 came from where?

Miss BOWRON. I think that this was "The Mail---The Daily Mail".

Mr. SPECTER. Appearing in what city?

Miss BOWRON. It appears in all cities. It is a national newspaper.

Mr. SPECTER. In England?

Miss BOWRON. Yes; it is prepared in England.

Mr. SPECTER. And how about BX-4?

Miss BOWRON. Well, this I think was "The Mirror" I think.

Mr. SPECTER. What city is The Mirror published in?

Miss BOWRON. That is a national newspaper.

Mr. SPECTER. Appearing in England?

Miss BOWRON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Were there any stories in any other newspapers about you and your participation in .the events of the day at Parkland?

Miss BOWRON. I believe there was one---I think it was an Australian paper and Mrs. Nelson received a letter from there with an article and which was the same as I think---as this one.

Mr. SPECTER. BX-4?

Miss BOWRON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And does that constitute all the stories which appeared about your participation in this event?

Miss BOWRON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, will you state briefly the circumstances under which this information was obtained, if you know?

Miss BOWRON. Mrs. Nelson spoke to me and told me that there had been two English reporters in Dallas who had been asking about me, and she told them where to get in touch with me, and the next day they came to the emergency room and wanted to speak to me and I said I couldn't tell them anything other than I was from England, gave them my home address, and the fact that I had been present and I was the one who went out to the car and brought the President in and being with him until they finished, and that was all that I told them.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you give them any information beyond that?

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Miss BOWRON. No, sir; and they told me that there would probably be some English reporters calling on my parents at home, and I am the only child and my mother worries, so I called home the next---that night and told my parents that I had been on duty and that there would probably be some reporters calling on them, and they weren't to worry about it but they weren't to say anything that except that I had been on duty and that was all.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you been interviewed by any representative of the Federal Government prior to today?

Miss BOWRON. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. By whom?

Miss BOWRON. I don't really know-he was an FBI agent.

Mr. SPECTER. And when was that?

Miss BOWRON. It was a week or two, I think, after the assassination.

Mr. SPECTER. And what did he ask you and what did you tell him?

Miss BOWRON. He asked us more or less the same questions you have asked us.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you tell him?

Miss BOWRON. The same as I told you.

Mr. SPECTER. When you say "us", whom do you mean by "us"?

Miss BOWRON. Mrs. Nelson was there and Miss Henchliffe and myself.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you talked to any other representatives of the Federal Government prior to today?

Miss BOWRON. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And did I discuss with you the purpose of the deposition and the nature of the questions that I would ask you immediately before we went on the record with this being taken down by the Court Reporter?

Miss BOWRON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And did you give me the same information which you have put on the record here today?

Miss BOWRON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add that you think might be helpful in any way to the Commission?

Miss BOWRON. Yes. When we were doing a cutdown on the President's left arm, his gold watch was in the way and they broke it---you know, undid it and it was slipping down and I just dropped it off of his hand and put it in my pocket and forgot completely about it until his body was being taken out of the emergency room and then I realized, and ran out to give it to one of the Secret Service men or anybody I could find and found this Mr. Wright.

Mr. SPECTER. Was that the same day?

Miss BOWRON. Yes--he had only just gone through O.B.---I was just a few feet behind him.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you think of anything else that might be of assistance to the Commission?

Miss BOWRON. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much for coming, Miss Bowron.

Miss BOWRON. Thank you.

Mr. SPECTER. Thank you a lot.

Miss BOWRON. All right, thank you.

Margaret M. Henchliffe

Page 139

TESTIMONY OF MARGARET M. HENCHLIFFE

The testimony of Margaret M. Henchliffe. was taken at 2 p.m., on March 21, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. SPECTER. Miss Henchliffe, the purpose of our asking you to come in today is in connection with the investigation being conducted by the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. The Commission has not written to you because, we have learned from Mrs. Doris Nelson in the deposition

139

On 3/13/2010 3:03 PM, John Canal wrote:
> In article<ec38a787-909c-4321-8b14-cceedc01813a@u5g2000prd.googlegroups.com>,
> pjspeare@AOL.COM says...
>>
>> On Mar 12, 6:54=A0pm, John Canal<John_mem...@newsguy.com>  wrote:
>>> At roughtly 4:00 PM, EST, on 11-22-63, the following announcement by Dan
>>> Rather, was televised on CBS' Dallas affiliate, KRLD-TV, and microwaved to
>>> CBS' NY HQ for national transmission.
>>>
>>> <quote on>
>>>
>>> Walter, we have some additional film......the fatal wound entered at the
>>> base of the throat and exited at the base of the neck on the BACK SIDE [my
>>> caps].
>>>
>>> <quote off>
>>>
>>> Unless I missed it (and that's quite possible), there was no mention of
>>> any "back side" hole in the PH Press Conference (transcript)...so
>>> presumably that information was obtained by a KRLD-TV reporter from one of
>>> the PH doctors and telephoned over to Rather....who in turn relayed it to
>>> CBS' Cronkite et al. in NY.
>>>
>>> In any event, I find it interesting that, considering the "official" story
>>> that the PH docs weren't able to see JFK's BOH, a wound to his "base of
>>> his neck on the back side" was reported.
>>>
>>> I'm sure you have a good explanation, which I'd like to hear.
>>>
>>> Oh, congratulations on your book.
>>>
>>> --
>>> John Canal
>>> jca...@webtv.net
>>
>> John, not that it matters much, but I went back and checked Rather's
>> purported statement against the actual footage, and it turns out the
>> quote attributed to Rather by Mae Brussell is not quite accurate.
>>
>> He actually said "the fatal wound entered at the base of the throat
>> and came out at the base of the neck on the back side." He said "came
>> out" and not "exited." Not that it really matters. But I expect that
>> you'll be using this quote a lot, and figured you'd want to get it
>> right.
>
> Thanks, I was trying to transcribe from the cassete recording I have of
> Rather's announcement and didn't get it exactly right...but I think I
> didn't distort the intended meaning.
>
> As far as using that quote a lot, I don't think so. But someone removed
> his clothes and must have seen his back side during that process....and

Logical fallacy. It is not necessary to see the back when removing the
clothes.

> I'd like to know who it was and if they looked at either the BOH and or
> the upper back and if they told anyoe about what they were able to see.
>

Yes, she did.

Subject: Re: Those "Unreliable" Parkland Nurses 1.
Date: 27 Jun 2003 14:29:18 GMT
From: Martin Shackelford <mshack@concentric.net>
Organization: Concentric Internet Services
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk

In case the copy with the photo doesn't download properly, here's the
text without the photo:

Harrison Livingstone has granted permission for me to post the contents
of a letter from Diana Bowron, dated 24th January 1993, and which
arrived too late for inclusion in High Treason 2. He recently ran across
it again, and thought it might be of interest. The only items omitted
are several personal notes, salutations, and her married name, which she
asked not be published.

The Cover Letter:

I have enclosed two photostats of photographs which may be of help to you.

1. From the Illustrated London News dated Nov 30th 1963 showing the
arrival of the casket at Andrews Air Force Base. That is the casket in
which we placed the President's body. The colour was bronzeand according
to the people from the funeral home it was the best they had.

2. From the Hospital Highlights the news letter of the Dallas County
Hospital District, of the trauma room where Kennedy was treated. The
photograph was taken for that edition of the news letter so it shows the
room as it was at the time of the assassination. I thought it might help
with the placement or non-placement of photographs, eg. tiles, also
gurney covers which were black. As I remember all the wall tiles in the
emergency room were the same height.

I understood the last time I was in Dallas, about two years after the
assassination, that the Emergency Room was to be moved and enlarged so I
am assuming that it no longer exists in its original form.

[Note: The photostats were not enclosed, as both pictures are widely
available.]

[A copy of a JFK back photo, F5, is enclosed, indicating "This is where
I remember the wound," but adding, "This is not the back I saw." The
location is indicated on the attached copy of the photo.]

[The main statement follows:]

The following is in answer to your questions.

When the president expired everyone left the room apart from Miss
Hinchcliffe, a male orderly and myself. We tidied the room and changed
the linen on the gurney and washed the body as best we could. Miss
Hinchcliffe and the orderly left the room, but I was told to remain with
the body until the casket arrived. I was told that I had to stay because
I had been one of the people who had taken the body from the car. I
remained in the room while the widow paid her respects. After she had
left I was asked, by a man I assumed was Secret Service, to collect all
pieces of skull and brain I could find and place them in a plastic bag
which he gave me. This I did and returned the bag to him (there were
only a few fragments of bone that had stuck to the dressings and towels
that we had used to pack the hole in the back of the head). I remained
in the room until the people from the funeral home arrived. After we had
placed the body in the casket and it had been closed I was allowed to
leave. During the time I was with the body only the widow and the priest
came into the room, any dealings I had with the Secret Service were done
in the doorway; no one else entered the room and no photographs were taken.

Apart from 2-3 mins, when I left the trauma room to collect blood from
the Blood Bank, I was with the body from the car until it was placed in
the casket.

Being new to the establishment, I was assigned to Minor Medicine and
Surgery, which was across the hall from the Triage desk and the major
sections of the Emergency room. It being very quiet, there were only two
or three patients waiting for the results of tests, I was talking with
the Triage nurse when the call went up for gurneys. I grabbed a gurney
in the hall and together with an orderly ran to the entrance. I saw that
the person in the back of the car was injured so I climbed in to render
what assistance I could until such time as we could move him to a
trolley, then to the trauma room (others were assisting the Governor in
the front seat). I saw that there was a massive amount of blood on the
back seat and in order to find the cause I lifted his head and my
fingers went into a large wound in the back of his head; I turned his
head and seeing the size of the wound realized that I could not stop the
bleeding. I turned his head back and saw an entry wound in the front of
the throat, I could feel no pulse at the jugular and having seen the
extent of the injury to the back of the head I assumed that he was dead.
(not my job, only a Doctor can certify death) When we got the President
to the Trauma room, word had reached the Trauma team and they were ready
with I.Vs etc. I worked with the team, assisting where needed for about
10 mins (time is difficult to judge in those circumstances), when I was
told to go to the Blood Bank. I was away 2-3 mins and on my return I
continued to assist where needed until the President was declared dead.

Miss Margaret Hinchcliffe and an African-American orderly and I prepared
the body for the coffin.  [Marginal note: David Sanders]

I observed no strange activity of any kind and saw no bullets.

As explained above, I thought after examination in the car that he was
dead. There was no damage to the front of his face, only the gaping
wound in the back of his head and the entry wound in his throat.

When we prepared the body for the coffin we washed the face and closed
the eyes; there was no damage to the face, there was no flap of scalp on
the right, neither was there a laceration pointing toward the right
eyebrow from the scalp.

When we were preparing the body for the coffin we rolled it over in
order to remove the bloodstained sheet from underneath and to wipe away
the blood from the back of the body. I saw another entry wound in the
upper back (the other entry wound being in the front of the throat).
With reference to the photograph The Back (F5) I only saw one wound, and
not the number of wounds in the photograph; I do not think that the
photo (F5) is of the President. I have marked for you on the photostat
that you sent me where I think the entry wound was.

I first saw the large wound in the back of the head in the car; when we
were preparing the body for the coffin I had the opportunity to examine
it more closely. It was about 5ins in diameter, there was no flap of
skin covering it, just a fraction of skin along part of the edges of
bone, there was however some hair hanging down from the top of the head
which was caked with blood, and most of the brain was missing. The wound
was so large I could almost put my whole fist inside.

When we prepared the body I washed as much blood as I could from the
hair; while doing this I didnot see any other wound either in the
temples or in other parts of the head.

I did not see anything suspicious about any of the doctors, though there
were far more doctors there than they should have been; perhaps because
it was the president they all wanted to get in on the act. You must
remember that I had only been there a short time and I did not know all
the doctors, some I never saw again, but they were all known to each
other. With regard to a post: in this context I think it would refer to
a gathering of the doctors after the event, to discuss the case. This
was standard practice, when more than one or two doctors were involved.

When the body was placed in the coffin the wound at the back of the head
was packed with gauze squares and wrapped in small white sheet, there
was no terrycloth or other type of towel used.

The coffin or casket was bronze with plain fittings, as in the enclosed
photograph. [This refers to the Andrews Air Force Base photo.]

I don't think the body was removed from the coffin. After I left the
Trauma room I was in a position to see if any one entered or left the
room. No one entered or left until they removed the coffin.

A clear plastic sheet was placed in the bottom of the coffin, which may
have been a mattress cover; the body was wrapped in at the most two
sheets plus the one around the head, all the sheets were white and none
had zips. There was no "body bag".

Perhaps the following will be of interest to you.

As soon as the coffin left the trauma room, I went back to Minor Med.
and Surg. to resume my work: I don't know anything about the fight with
Earl Rose, which happened at that time.

When I arrived there I found that the patients had been moved elsewhere,
and the department had been taken over by the Vice President and his
staff. They were getting ready to leave when I got there, as they passed
me I heard the Vice President say to his wife "Make a note of what
everyone says and does".

Again I hope this is of some help to you.


[Signed] Diana Bowron

> If no one voluneered that information, and those who removed the clothes
> weren't asked about what they saw....once again, that'd be pretty sloppy
> investigating, IMO.
>


Now wait a God damn minute. That's our government you are talking about.
You know, the one which thoroughly investigated al Qaeda and prevented
the attacks on 9/11!

What are you, some damn Communist or something?

DR. GIESECKE Volume VI

TESTIMONY OF DR. ADOLPH HARTUNG GIESECKE, JR.

The testimony of Dr. Adolph Hartung Giesecke, Jr., was taken at 1:40 p.m., on March 25, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that Dr. A. H. Giesecke, Jr., is present in response to a letter request from the Commission to appear at this deposition proceeding in connection with the President's Commission to Investigate the Assassination of President Kennedy, including his medical treatment at Parkland Hospital.

Dr. Giesecke has been asked to appear to testify about his knowledge of the treatment that President Kennedy and Governor Connally received at Parkland Hospital on November 22, and with that preliminary statement of purpose and objective, would you please stand up, Dr. Giesecke, and raise your right hand?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give before this President's Commission in these deposition proceedings will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Dr. GIESECKE. Yes; I do.

Mr. SPECTER Will you state your full name, please, for the record?

Dr. GIESECKE. Adolph Hartung Giesecke, Jr. H-a-r-t-u-n-g (spelling).

Mr. SPECTER What is your profession?

Dr. GIESECKE. I am a physician and anesthesiologist.

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Mr. SPECTER. Are you duly licensed to practice medicine in the State of Texas?

Dr. GIESECKE. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you board-certified?

Dr. GIESECKE. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you working for board-certification?

Dr. GIESECKE Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you outline briefly your educational background, please?

Dr. GIESECKE. I graduated--how far back do you want me to go?

Mr. SPECTER. Start with college, graduation from college, if you would, please.

Dr. GIESECKE. I was on an accelerated plan through the University of Texas but have no college degree. I matriculated to medical school in 1953, September 1953, graduated May 30, 1957, from the University of Texas Medical Branch at Galveston, Tex. I did my internship at William Beaumont Army Hospital at El Paso, following which I served 24 months on active duty in the Army as an aviation medical officer. I was stationed primarily at the Presidio at San Francisco, Calif. Upon discharge from the Army, I came to Parkland Hospital, completed a 3-year residency in anesthesiology in July 1963. Since that time I have been an assistant professor on the anesthesiology staff at Southwestern Medical School.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to render medical attention to President Kennedy on November 22, 1963?

Dr. GIESECKE. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you outline the circumstances under which you were called into that matter?

Dr. GIESECKE. I was eating lunch in the cafeteria when Dr. Jenkins approached the table and told me that the President had been shot and asked me to bring some resuscitative equipment from the operating room to the emergency room, which I did.

Mr. SPECTER. And at what time did you arrive at the emergency room, approximately ?

Dr. GIESECKE. Can I look and see when I induced the Governor?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes. May the record show that Dr. Giesecke is now referring to a letter from A. H. Giesecke, Jr., M.D., to Mr. C. J. Price, administrator, dated November 25, 1963, which I will ask the reporter to mark as "Dr. Giesecke's Exhibit No. 1."

(Instrument referred to marked by the reporter as "Dr. Giesecke Exhibit No. 1," for identification. )

Mr. SPECTER. Let me ask you a question or two, first about this, Dr. Giesecke, to qualify--is this a copy of the report which you submitted to Mr. Price?

Dr. GIESECKE. Yes, that is a real copy.

Mr. SPECTER. And all the facts contained in this report are true and correct?

Dr. GIESECKE. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And do they concern the treatment which was rendered by you to President Kennedy and Governor Connally?

Dr. GIESECKE. That's correct.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, refer to that if you wish, if it will help you answer the last question.

Dr. GIESECKE. I arrived in the emergency room at 12:40 p.m., between 12:40 and 12:45.

Mr. SPECTER. And who was present at the time you arrived?

Dr. GIESECKE. Dr. Jenkins was present, Dr. Carrico, Dr. Dulany, Dr. Baxter, Dr. Perry, Dr. McClelland, and Drs. Akin and Hunt arrived at the same time that I did.

Mr. SPECTER, Were there any other people present, such as nurses?

Dr. GIESECKE. Mrs. Kennedy was in the room--I could not say--I can't say who else was there. There may have been a nurse there, I just don't remember. It seemed to me there was a Secret Service man there too, with Mrs. Kennedy.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you sure Dr. Dulany was there, as distinguished from being with Governor Connally ?

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Dr. GIESECKE. Perhaps--perhaps--I'm shaky on that.

Mr SPECTER. The reason I asked you about that specifically is because Dr. Carrico testified this morning that he and Dr. Dulany were on duty and Dr. Dulany went immediately with Governor Connally and Dr. Carrico went to President Kennedy.

Dr. GIESECKE. That may well be.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the condition of the President when you arrived?

Dr. GIESECKE. There was a great deal of blood loss which was apparent when he came in the room--the cart was covered with blood and there was a great deal of blood on the floor. There was--I could see no spontaneous motion on the part of the President. In other words, he made no movement during the time that I was in the room. As I moved around towards the head of the emergency cart with the anesthesia machine and the resuscitative equipment and helped Dr. Jenkins to hook the anesthesia machine up to the President to give him oxygen, I noticed that he had a very large cranial wound, with loss of brain substance, and it seemed that most of the bleeding was coming from the cranial wound.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe specifically as to the nature of the cranial wound ?

Dr. GIESECKE. It seemed that from the vertex to the left ear, and from the browline to the occiput on the left-hand side of the head the cranium was entirely missing.

Mr. SPECTER. Was that the left-hand side of the head, or the right-hand side of the head ?

Dr. GIESECKE. I would say the left, but this is just my memory of it.

Mr. SPECTER. That's your recollection ?

Dr. GIESECKE. Right, like I say, I was there a very short time really.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any other wound or bullet hole below the large area of missing skull ?

Dr. GIESECKE. No; when I arrived the tracheotomy was in progress at that time and so I observed no other wound except the one on the cranium.

Mr. SPECTER. On the cranium itself, did you observe another bullet hole below the portion of missing skull ?

Dr. GIESECKE. No, sir; this was found later by Dr. Clark--I didn't see this.

Mr. SPECTER. What makes you say that that hole was found later by Dr. Clark?

Dr. GIESECKE. Well, this is hearsay--I wasn't there when they found it and I didn't notice it.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, Dr. Clark didn't observe that hole.

Dr. GIESECKE. Oh, he didn't--I'm sorry.

Mr. SPECTER. From whom did you hear that the hole had been observed, if you recollect?

Dr. GIESECKE-. Oh--I must be confused. We talked to so many people about these things--I don't remember.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, with respect to the condition of the President's neck, what was its status at the time you first observed it?

Dr. GIESECKE. Well, like I say, they were performing the tracheotomy, and I personally saw no wound in the neck other than the tracheotomy wound. As soon as the tracheotomy was completed, we removed the endotracheal tube and hooked the anesthesia machine to the tracheotomy tube and efforts were made then to put in a chest tube, an anterior chest tube.

Mr. SPECTER. How long were you with President Kennedy altogether?

Dr. GIESECKE. Approximately 5 minutes.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you now described everything which was done during the time you were there?

Dr. GIESECKE.. No--after having assisted Dr. Jenkins in establishing a ventilation, I then hooked up a cardiotachioscope or an electronic electrocardiographic monitor to the President by putting needles in the skin and plugging the thing in the wall, plugging the monitor in the wall. Before the machine had sufficient time to warm up to see if there were any electrical activity, then I was called out of the room.

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Mr. SPECTER. And did you have any occasion to return to the room where the President was ?

Dr. GIESECKE. No.

Mr. SPECTER. And where were you called to?

Dr. GIESECKE. I was called across the hall where Governor Connally was being moved out of the emergency treatment room and toward the operating room.

Mr. SPECTER. And what action did you take at that time, if any?

Dr. GIESECKE. I had my equipment with me I had taken my equipment with me from the room where the President was, having ascertained that Dr. Jenkins didn't need anything that I had, and so I proceeded to the elevator. We moved the equipment and the Governor--the Governor went on the first elevator and I caught the second one.

Mr. SPECTER. And where did you go on the second elevator?

Dr. GIESECKE. To the second floor where the operating suite is, moved off of the elevator and down to operating room 5, which was being set up for the Governor. The Governor had arrived and I obtained from the anesthesia orderly an anesthesia machine, checked it for safe operation, and discussed the Governor's condition a little bit with him, and determined that he was conscious and that he could respond to questions and that he hadn't eaten in the previous several hours, and proceeded to induce an anesthesia.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, are all the details of your activity in connection with Governor Connally's operation contained in the report marked "Dr. Giesecke's Exhibit No. 1" ?

Dr. GIESECKE. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, you mentioned a few minutes ago that you talked about this matter with a number of people whom have you talked to, Dr. Giesecke?

Dr. GIESECKE. Well, of course, we discussed it with Dr. Jenkins and various members of the anesthesia staff. We have discussed it with--I've forgotten that gentleman's name, but he was from the American Medical Association, as a historian. We discussed it with Dr. Mike Bush, who then reported it in the Anesthesiology Newsletter, which is a publication of the American Society of Anesthesiologists, and then discussed it with the Secretary of may I retract that. That's about it--that's the extent of the discussion, except with other members of the surgical staff and the anesthesia staff and these people.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever discussed this matter with any representative of the Federal Government prior to today?

Dr. GIESECKE. Yes; there was a well documented Secret Service man here who said he was from the Warren Commission about a month ago, I imagine.

Mr. SPECTER. What do you mean by "well documented" ?

Dr. GIESECKE. Well, I mean he had a badge and a card and he seemed to be legitimate.

Mr. SPECTER. And what did you tell him, if anything?

Dr. GIESECKE. He was asking rather specifically if we had made other notes than the reports that we had already submitted, so in essence it was just a matter of telling him, "No, I didn't have any other information written down except what I had already given."

Mr. SPECTER And what had you already given--that letter report?

Dr. GIESECKE. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. That is marked "Giesecke Exhibit No. 1" ?

Dr. GIESECKE. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Has any other representative talked to you from the Federal Government about this matter?

Dr. GIESECKE. No.

Mr. SPECTER. This afternoon prior to the time we went on the record, did I ask you a few questions and discuss the nature of this deposition proceeding, and did you give me information just as you have on the record here after the court reporter started to take everything down?

Dr. GIESECKE. Yes; that's correct- She was out of the room for a few minutes before we started.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add which you think might be helpful to the Warren Commission in its investigation?

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Dr. GIESECKE. No, I think that pretty well covers what I did.

Mr. SPECTER. May I thank you very much, Dr. Giesecke? That's fine.

Dr. GIESECKE.. Thank you.

Dr. Jackie Hansen Hunt

Page 76

TESTIMONY OF DR. JACKIE HANSEN HUNT

Dr. JONES Volume VI

TESTIMONY OF DR. RONALD COY JONES

The testimony of Dr. Ronald Coy Jones was taken at 10:20 a.m., on March 24, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

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Mr. SPECTER. May the record show at this point that Dr. Ronald Jones has arrived in response to a letter of request to give his deposition for the President's Commission on the assassination of President Kennedy.

Dr. Jones, the purpose of the President's Commission is to investigate all the facts relating to the shooting and subsequent medical treatment of President Kennedy and we have asked you to appear to testify concerning your knowledge of that treatment.

With that statement of purpose, will you stand up and raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you give before the President's Commission during the course of this deposition proceeding will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Dr. JONES. I do.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you state your full name for the record, please?

Dr. JONES. Ronald Coy Jones.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your profession, sir?

Dr. JONES. General Surgery--resident physician.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you duly licensed by the State of Texas to practice medicine?

Dr. JONES. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you outline briefly your educational background?

Dr. JONES. I graduated--I went to undergraduate school at the University of Arkansas from 1950 to 1953, in pre-med. From 1953 through 1957, I went to medical school and graduated from the University of Tennessee in Memphis, and in 1957 through 1958 I took an internship in Los Angeles County General Hospital.

From there I went to the University of Oklahoma and took a 2-year general practice residency, 1 year, the first year, entailing a year of internal medicine and its subspecialties, and a second year of surgery and its subspecialties, which was approved by the American Board of Surgeons for 1 year of surgical training, and from 1960 until the present time I have taken an additional 4 years of general surgery at Parkland, and have served as Chief Resident of Surgery.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to aid in the medical treatment of President Kennedy on November 22, 1963 ?

Dr. JONES. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you relate briefly the circumstances surrounding your being called into the case ?

Dr. JONES. I was eating lunch with Dr. Perry and I heard the operator page Dr. Tom Shires of the staff on two occasions, and the second time I answered the phone and the operator told me that the President had been shot and was being brought to the emergency room.

I turned around and immediately notified Miss Audrey Bell, who is the operating room supervisor so that any arrangements could be made for immediate surgery, and Dr. M. T. Jenkins, who is the Chief of the Anesthesiology Department. From there I went across the room and notified Dr. Perry of the shooting and we both went together to the emergency room, and it was at that time we arrived shortly after the President had been brought in.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate as to the time you arrived at the emergency room ?

Dr. JONES. It was, I would say, around 23 or 25 minutes until 1.

Mr. SPECTER. And who was present, if anyone, at the time you arrived ?

Dr. JONES. Dr. James Carrico, and possibly Dr. Richard Dulany, and I'm not sure that he was there or was there for just a few minutes after we arrived. I do recall seeing him there as one of the first ones.

Mr. SPECTER. Was any nurse present at that time?

Dr. JONES. The head nurse in the emergency room was present and--

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know her name ?

Dr. JONES. It's left my mind right now-- I know her.

Mr. SPECTER. Could that be Miss Henchliffe?

Dr. JONES. She was there, I believe.

Mr. SPECTER. Mrs. Bowron ?

Dr. JONES. No--just the--

Mr. SPECTER. Mrs. Nelson?

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Dr. JONES. Nelson.

Mr. SPECTER. Was anyone else present then, other than those whom you have already mentioned at the time you arrived?

Dr. JONES. There were three nurses there--Mrs. Nelson, Miss Henchliffe and Miss Bowron.

Mr. SPECTER. And were any other doctors present when you arrived?

Dr. JONES. Dr. Carrico was the only doctor other than possibly Dr. Dulany, and I do know Dr. Carrico was there when I arrived.

Mr. SPECTER. Was Dr. Don Curtis there when you arrived?

Dr. JONES. I didn't see him.

Mr. SPECTER. And who arrived with you, if you recall?

Dr. JONES. Dr. Perry.

Mr. SPECTER. And what did you observe the President's condition to be upon your arrival?

Dr. JONES. He appeared to be terminal, if not already expired, and Dr. Carrico said that he had seen some attempted respirations, agonal respirations, and with that history, we went ahead with emergency measures to try to restore the airway.

Mr. SPECTER. When you say "attempted agonal respiration," do you mean an effort by the President?

Dr. JONES. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Or, an effort by someone else to induce respiration?

Dr. JONES. No, these apparently were as Dr. Carrico saw the President was attempting to respire on his own, however, I did not personally see this in the brief seconds that I stood there before I went ahead and started work.

Mr. SPECTER. What is the lay definition for agonal respiration ?

Dr. JONES. These are the respirations that are somewhat of a strain, that is, seen in a patient who is expiring--just very short, irregular type respirations.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you continue now to describe what you observed to be the President's condition?

Dr. JONES. We felt that he was in extreme shock, merely by the fact that there was no motion, that he was somewhat cyanotic, his eyes were--appeared to be fixed; there was no evidence of motion of the eyes; and we noticed that he did not have a satisfactory airway or was not breathing on his own in a satisfactory way to sustain life so that we felt that either an endotracheal tube had to be instituted immediately, which was done by Dr. Carrico. We felt that this was not adequate and since tracheotomy equipment was in the room, we felt that he would profit more by tracheotomy and that we could be certain that he was getting adequate oxygen.

Mr. SPECTER. What was done with respect to applying oxygen to the President then ?

Dr. JONES. Well, a tracheotomy was done, and then an adapter was fitted to this tube, and we had an anesthesia machine there by this time with Dr. Jenkins available so that he could give him straight oxygen from the machine.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe anything else with respect to the President's condition at that time?

Dr. JONES. You mean as far as wounds--that he had?

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any wounds ?

Dr. JONES. As we saw him the first time, we noticed that he had a small wound at the midline of the neck, just above the superasternal notch, and this was probably no greater than a quarter of an inch in greatest diameter, and that he had a large wound in the right posterior side of the head.

Mr. SPECTER. When you say "we noticed," whom do you mean by that?

Dr. JONES. Well, Dr. Perry and I were the two that were there at this time observing.

Mr. SPECTER. Did Dr. Perry make any comment about the nature of the wound at that time? Either wound?

Dr. JONES. Not that I recall.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe as precisely as you can the nature of the head wound?

Dr. JONES. There was large defect in the back side of the head as the President lay on the cart with what appeared to be some brain hanging out of this

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wound with multiple pieces of skull noted next with the brain and with a tremendous amount of clot and blood.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe as precisely as you can the wound that you observed in the throat?

Dr. JONES. The wound in the throat was probably no larger than a quarter of an inch in diameter. There appeared to be no powder burn present, although this could have been masked by the amount of blood that was on the head and neck, although there was no obvious, amount of powder present. There appeared to be a very minimal amount of disruption of interruption of the surrounding skin. There appeared to be relatively smooth edges around the wound, and if this occurred as a result of a missile, you would have probably thought it was a missile of very low velocity and probably could have been compatible with a bone fragment of either--probably exiting from the neck, but it was a very small, smooth wound.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you notice any lump in the throat area?

Dr. JONES. No; I didn't.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there any blood on the throat area in the vicinity of the wound which you have described of the throat?

Dr. JONES. Not a great deal of blood, as if in relation to the amount that was around the head--not too much.

Mr. SPECTER. What further action was taken by the medical team in addition to that which you have described on the tracheotomy?

Dr. JONES: Well, as Dr. Perry started the tracheotomy, I started the cut down in the left arm to insert a large polyethylene catheter, to give an I.V. so that we could give I.V. solutions as well as blood, and at the same time another doctor or two were doing some cutdowns in the lower extremities around the ankle. We made the cutdown in the left arm in the cephalic vein very rapidly and I.V. fluids were started immediately and as I was doing this, Dr. Perry was performing the tracheotomy, and it was about this time that Dr. Baxter came in and went ahead to assist Dr. Perry with the tracheotomy, and as they made a deeper incision in the neck to isolate the trachea, they thought they saw some gush of air and the possibility of a pneumothorax on one side or the other was entertained, and since I was to the left of the President, I went ahead and put in the anterior chest tube in the second intercostal space.

Mr. SPECTER. Was that tube fully inserted, Doctor?

Dr. JONES. I felt that the tube was fully inserted, and this was immediately connected to underwater drainage.

Mr. SPECTER. What do you mean by "connected to underwater drainage", Dr. Jones?

Dr. JONES. The tube is connected to a bottle whereby it aerates in the chest from a pneumothorax and as the patient breathes, the air is forced out under the water and produces somewhat of a suction so that the lung will reexpand and will not stay collapsed and this will give adequate aeration to the body, and we decided to go ahead and put in a chest tube on the opposite side; since I could not reach the opposite side due to the number of people that were working on the President. Dr. Baxter was over there helping Dr. Perry on that side, as well as Dr. Paul Peters, the assistant head of urology here, and the three of us then inserted the chest tube on the right side, primarily done by Dr. Baxter and Dr. Peters on the right side.

Mr. SPECTER. Then what other treatment, if any, was afforded President Kennedy?

Dr. JONES. After the tracheotomy was done, the intravenous fluid blood was started--I believe that the President was also administered some hydrocortisone because of his history of adrenal insufficiency, and at this time an electrocardiogram had been connected and it showed no evidence of a heartbeat. Closed cardiac massage was then first begun by Dr. Perry and then I believe that after about 5 minutes no significant or no myocardial activity was present and he was pronounced dead.

Mr. SPECTER. What history did you refer to of President Kennedy's adrenal insufficiency ?

Dr. JONES. As I recall, there had been in news that the President had several years ago been on some type of steroid therapy and that he possibly had

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Addison's disease. We had no documented evidence that he did or did not, but caution was taken nonetheless in case his insufficiency was of severe enough nature, because at the time of severe trauma a patient with adrenal insufficiency often goes into a rapid degree of adrenal insufficiency and can expire from lack of steroids being produced from the adrenal gland in such a stressed situation.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you obtain that history from Mrs. Kennedy, or any other person on the scene?

Dr. JONES. No.

Mr. SPECTER. You just relied upon what had been occurring in the news?

Dr. JONES. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. What would that reaction cause, if anything, if the President had no adrenal insufficiency?

Dr. JONES. This would not cause severe effects on any organ at all if the adrenal gland were producing enough steroids.

Mr. SPECTER. Did any other doctors arrive during the time this treatment was going on, other than those whom you have already mentioned?

Dr. JONES. Several doctors did subsequently appear in the room--Dr. McClelland appeared shortly after Dr. Baxter, within a matter of just a very few minutes, as well as Dr. Kemp Clark, who is head of neurosurgery here.

Mr. SPECTER. Any other doctors?

Dr. JONES. Dr. Jenkins was there and I think these are primarily the ones that actually had any part, as far as taking care of the President, although there were some other doctors in the room.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Jones, I now hand you a report which purports to bear your signature, labeled "Summary of treatment of the President," dated November 23, 1963, which I shall now ask the Court Reporter to mark as Dr. Jones' Exhibit No. 1.

(Instrument mentioned marked by the Reporter as Dr. Jones' Exhibit No. 1, for identification.)

Mr. SPECTER. I ask you if this in fact is your signature ?

Dr. JONES. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And I ask you if this was the report which you submitted concerning your participation of the treatment of President Kennedy?

Dr. JONES. Yes; it was.

Mr. SPECTER. In this report, Dr. Jones, you state the following, "Previously described severe skull and brain injury was noted as well as a small hole in anterior midline of the neck thought to be a bullet entrance wound. What led you to the thought that it was a bullet entrance wound, sir?

Dr. JONES. The hole was very small and relatively clean cut, as you would see in a bullet that is entering rather than exiting from a patient. If this were an exit wound, you would think that it exited at a very low velocity to produce no more damage than this had done, and if this were a missile of high velocity, you would expect more of an explosive type of exit wound, with more tissue destruction than this appeared to have on superficial examination.

Mr. SPECTER. Would it be consistent, then, with an exit wound, but of low velocity, as you put it?

Dr. JONES. Yes; of very low velocity to the point that you might think that this bullet barely made it through the soft tissues and just enough to drop out of the skin on the opposite side.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your experience, Doctor, if any, in the treatment of bullet wounds?

Dr. JONES. During our residency here we have approximately 1 complete year out of the 4 years on the trauma service here, and this is in addition to the 2 months that we spend every other day and every other night in the emergency room during our first year, so that we see a tremendous number of bullet wounds here in that length of time, sometimes as many as four and five a night.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever had any formal training in bullet wounds?

Dr. JONES. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever had occasion to observe a bullet wound which was inflicted by a missile at approximate size of a 6.5 ram. bullet which passed

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through the body of a person and exited from a neck without striking anything but soft tissue from the back through the neck, where the missile came from a weapon of the muzzle velocity of 2,000 feet per second, and the victim was in the vicinity of 160 to 250 feet from the weapon?

Dr. JONES. No; I have not seen a missile of this velocity exit in the anterior portion of the neck. I have seen it in other places of the body, but not in the neck.

Mr. SPECTER. What other places in the body have you seen it, Dr. Jones?

Dr. JONES. I have seen it in the extremity and here it produces a massive amount of soft tissue destruction.

Mr. SPECTER. Is that in the situation of struck bone or not struck bone or what?

Dr. JONES. Probably where it has struck bone.

Mr. SPECTER. In a situation where it strikes bone, however, the bone becomes so to speak a secondary missile, does it not, in accentuating the soft tissue damage?

Dr. JONES. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Jones, did you have any speculative thought as to accounting for the point of wounds which you observed on the President, as you thought about it when you were treating the President that day, or shortly thereafter?

Dr. JONES. With no history as to the number of times that the President had been shot or knowing the direction from which he had been shot, and seeing the wound in the midline of the neck, and what appeared to be an exit wound in the posterior portion of the skull, the only speculation that I could have as far as to how this could occur with a single wound would be that would enter the anterior neck and possibly strike a vertebral body and then change its course and exit in the region of the posterior portion of the head. However, this was--there was some doubt that a missile that appeared to be of this high velocity would suddenly change its course by striking, but at the present-at that time, if I accounted for it on the basis of one shot, that would have been the way I accounted for it.

Mr. SPECTER. And would that account take into consideration the extensive damage done to the top of the President's head ?

Dr. JONES. If this were the course of the missile, it probably--possibly could have accounted for it, although I would possibly expect it to do a tremendous amount of damage to the vertebral column that it hit and if this were a high velocity missile would also think that the entrance wound would probably be larger than the one that was present at the time we saw

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe whether or not there was any damage to the vertebral column ?

Dr. JONES. No, we could not see this.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you discuss this theory with any other doctor or doctors?

Dr. JONES. Yes; this was discussed after the assassination.

Mr. SPECTER. With whom ?

Dr. JONES. With Dr. Perry--is the only one that I recall specifically, and that was merely as to how many times the President was shot, because even immediately after death, within a matter of 30 minutes, the possibility of a second gunshot wound was entertained and that possibly he had been shot more than once.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any wound on the President's back?

Dr. JONES. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Was the President ever turned over?

Dr. JONES. Not while I was in the room.

Mr. SPECTER. What was he on when you first saw him?

Dr. JONES. He was on an emergency room cart, which is on wheels and can be changed to varying heights and also varying positions, as far as elevating the head or elevating the feet, lowering the head and so forth.

Mr. SPECTER. Was he ever taken off that cart from the time he was brought into the emergency room to the time he was pronounced to be dead?

Dr. JONES. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Doctor, are you working toward board certification at this time?

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Dr. JONES. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is your status on your progress with that, generally?

Dr. JONES. I will finish my formal training in surgery in July of this year, which will complete 5 years of general surgery residency.

Mr. SPECTER. How old are you at the present time, Dr. Jones?

Dr. JONES. Thirty-one.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you discussed this matter with any representatives of the Federal Government prior to today ?

Dr. JONES. Yes, I believe the Secret Service has been here on at least two occasions.

Mr. SPECTER. And what did they ask you on those occasions?

Dr. JONES. I think, primarily, to verify that what I had written was true and that I had been one of the first doctors to be in the room with the President.

Mr. SPECTER. Did they ask you anything else other than that?

Dr. JONES. On one occasion they asked if there were any other pieces of paper that had been written on as to the care that had been administered to the President that I had not turned in, and I told them "No."

Mr. SPECTER. And did you and I sit down and talk for a few minutes before we went on the record in this deposition, with me indicating to you the general purpose and the line of questioning, and you setting forth the same information which we have put on the record here today?

Dr. JONES. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add which you think might be helpful to the Commission in any way?

Dr. JONES. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. That concludes the deposition. Thank you very much, Dr. Jones.

Dr. JONES. All right.

Dr. Kemp Clark Volume VI

TESTIMONY OF DR. WILLIAM KEMP CLARK

The testimony of Dr. William Kemp Clark was taken at 11:50 a.m., on March 21, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you stand up please, Dr. Clark, and raise your right hand?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you will give before the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy in this deposition

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proceeding will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Dr. CLARK. I do.

Mr. SPECTER. You may be seated.

Dr. CLARK. Thank you.

Mr. SPECTER. The President's Commission is investigating all facts related to the Assassination of President Kennedy, and you have been asked to testify in this deposition proceeding relating to the medical treatment received by President Kennedy at Parkland Memorial Hospital and all facts incident thereto.

Dr. Clark, have you received a letter from the President's Commission enclosing a copy of the Executive Order establishing 'the Commission' and a copy of a Senate and House Joint Resolution about the Commission, and a letter relating

to the taking of testimony by the Commission?

Dr. CLARK. I have.

Mr. SPECTER. And are you willing to proceed with this deposition today, even though 3 days have not elapsed between the time you received the letter and this morning?

Dr. CLARK. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you state your full name for the record, please?

Dr. CLARK. William Kemp Clark.

Mr. SPECTER Will you outline in a general way your educational background, please?

Dr. CLARK. Yes. I graduated from the University of Texas in Austin, 1944. I graduated from the University of Texas Medical Branch at Galveston in 1948. I interned at Indiana University Medical Center and was a resident in surgery there from 1948 to 1950. I spent 2 years in the Air Force and then took my residency in neurological surgery at Columbia Presbyterian Hospital in New York City. This was from 1953 to 1956, at which time I came to the University of Texas, Southwestern Medical School, as chairman of the division of neurological surgery.

Would you like the professional qualifications?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes; may I have the professional qualifications in summary form, if you will, please.

Dr. CLARK. I am beard certified by the American Board of Neurological Surgery. I am a Fellow with the American College of Surgeons. I am a member of the Harvey Cushing Society.

Mr. SPECTER. What is the Harvey Cushing Society, by the way?

Dr. CLARK. It is the largest society of neurological surgeons in the world.

Mr. SPECTER. And what do your duties consist of with respect to the Southwestern Medical School of the University of Texas?

Dr. CLARK. I am in charge of the division of neurological surgery and carry the responsibility of administering this department or this division, to arrange the instruction of medical students in neurological surgery and to conduct research in this field.

Mr. SPECTER. What were your duties back on November 22, 1963?

Dr. CLARK. Essentially these. I also, as chairman of the division, have the responsibility as director of neurological surgery at Parkland Memorial Hospital which is the major teaching hospital of the medical school.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you receive notification on November 22, 1963, that the President had been wounded and was en route to this hospital?

Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know at approximately what time you got that notification?

Dr. CLARK. Approximately 12:20 or 12:30.

Mr. SPECTER. And what action, if any, did you take as a result of receiving that notification ?

Dr. CLARK. I went immediately to the emergency room at Parkland Hospital. I was in the laboratory at Southwestern Medical School when this word reached me by phone from the hospital.

Mr. SPECTER. And at approximately what time did you then arrive at the emergency room ?

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Dr. CLARK. I would estimate it took a minute and a half to two minutes, so I would guess that I arrived approximately 12:30.

Mr. SPECTER. And who was present, if anyone, upon your arrival, attending to the President?

Dr. CLARK. Dr. Jenkins, that is M. T. Jenkins, I suppose I ought to say, Dr. Ronald Jones, Dr. Malcolm Perry, Dr. James Carrico; arriving either with me or immediately thereafter were Dr. Robert McClelland, Dr. Paul Peters, and Dr. Charles Baxter.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe the President's condition to be on your arrival there?

Dr. CLARK. The President was lying on his back on the emergency cart. Dr. Perry was performing a tracheotomy. There were chest tubes being inserted. Dr. Jenkins was assisting the President's respirations through a tube in his trachea. Dr. Jones and Dr. Carrico were administering fluids and blood intravenously. The President was making a few spasmodic respiratory efforts. I assisted. in withdrawing the endotracheal tube from the throat as Dr. Perry was then ready to insert the tracheotomy tube . I then examined the President briefly.

My findings showed his pupils were widely dilated, did not react to light, and his eyes were deviated outward with a slight skew deviation.

I then examined the wound in the back of the President's head. This was a large, gaping wound in the right posterior part, with cerebral and cerebellar tissue being damaged and exposed. There was considerable blood loss evident on the carriage, the floor, and the clothing of some of the people present. I would estimate 1,500 cc. of blood being present.

As I was examining the President's wound, I felt for a carotid pulse and felt none. Therefore, I began external cardiac massage and asked that a cardiotachioscope be connected. Because of my position it was difficult to administer cardiac massage. However, Dr. Jones stated that he felt a femoral pulse.

Mr. SPECTER. What is a femoral pulse?

Dr. CLARK. A femoral artery is the main artery going to the legs, and at the junction of the leg and the trunk you can feel the arterial pulsation in this artery. Because of my position, cardiac massage was taken over by Dr. Malcolm Perry, who was more advantageously situated.

Mr. SPECTER. What did the cardiotachioscope show at that time?

Dr. CLARK. By this time the cardiotachioscope, we just call it a cardiac monitor for a better word----

Mr. SPECTER. That's a good word.

Dr. CLARK. The cardiotachioscope had been attached and Dr. Found Bashour had arrived. There was transient electrical activity of the President's heart of an undefined type. Approximately, at this time the external cardiac massage became ineffectual and no pulsations could be felt. At this time it was decided to pronounce the President dead.

Mr. SPECTER. At what time was this fixed ?

Dr. CLARK. Death was fixed at 1 p.m.

Mr. SPECTER. Was that a precise time or an approximate time, or in what way did you fix the time of death at 1 o'clock?

Dr. CLARK. This was an approximation as it is, first, extremely difficult to stage precisely when death occurs. Secondly, no one was monitoring the clock, so an approximation of 1 o'clock was chosen.

Mr. SPECTER. Who was it who actually fixed the time of death?

Dr. CLARK. I did.

Mr. SPECTER. And did you have any part in the filling out of the death certificate?

Dr. CLARK. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And what did you do with respect to that?

Dr. CLARK. I filled out the death certificate at the request of Dr. George Burkley, the President's physician at the White House, signed the death certificate as a registered physician in the State of Texas, and gave this to him to accompany the body to Washington.

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Mr. SPECTER. Did you advise anyone else in the Presidential party of the death of the President?

Dr. CLARK. Yes; I told Mrs. Kennedy, the President's wife, of his death.

Mr. SPECTER. And what, if anything, did she respond to you?

Dr. CLARK. She told me that she knew it and thanked me for our efforts.

Mr. SPECTER. Were any bullets or parts of bullets found in the President's body?

Dr. CLARK. Not by me, nor did I see any such missiles recovered at Parkland Hospital.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you a part of any press conference which followed on the day of the assassination?

Dr. CLARK. Yes sir; I was.

Mr. SPECTER. And who made the arrangements for the press conference?

Dr. CLARK. Mr. Malcolm Kilduff, the Presidential press secretary.

Mr. SPECTER. At what time did the press conference occur?

Dr. CLARK. Approximately 2:30.

Mr. SPECTER. Where was it held?

Dr. CLARK. It was held in room 101-102, Parkland Hospital.

Mr. SPECTER. What mechanical instruments were used, if any, by the press at the conference?

Dr. CLARK. Tape recorders and television cameras, as well as the usual note pads and pencils, and so forth.

Mr. SPECTER. And who was interviewed during the course of the press conference and photographed?

Dr. CLARK. Dr. Malcolm Perry and myself.

Mr. SPECTER. No one else?

Dr. CLARK. No.

Mr. SPECTER. What, if anything, did you say then in the course of that press conference?

Dr. CLARK. I described the President's wound in his head in very much the same way as I have described it here. I was asked if this wound was an entrance wound, an exit wound, or what, and I said it could be an exit wound, but I felt it was a tangential wound.

Mr. SPECTER. Which wound did you refer to at this time?

Dr. CLARK. The wound in the head.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you describe at that time what you meant by "tangential"?

Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. SPECTER. What definition of "tangential" did you make at that time?

Dr. CLARK. As I remember, I defined the word "tangential" as being---striking an object obliquely, not squarely or head on.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe at this time in somewhat greater detail the consequences of a tangential wound as contrasted with another type of a striking?

Dr. CLARK. Let me begin by saying that the damage suffered by an organ when struck by a bullet or other missile---

Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that I interrupted the deposition for about 2 minutes to ascertain what our afternoon schedule would be here because the regular administration office ordinarily closes at 12 o'clock, which was just about 15 minutes ago, and then we resumed the deposition of Dr. Clark as he was discussing the concept of tangential and other types of striking. Go ahead, Doctor.

Dr. CLARK. The effects of any missile striking an organ or a function of the energy which is shed by the missile in passing through this organ when a bullet strikes the head, if it is able to pass through rapidly without shedding any energy into the brain, little damage results, other than that part of the brain which is directly penetrated by the missile. However, if it strikes the skull at an angle, it must then penetrate much more bone than normal, therefore, is likely to shed more energy, striking the brain a more powerful blow.

Secondly, in striking the bone in this manner, it may cause pieces of the bone to be blown into the brain and thus act as secondary missiles. Finally, the bullet itself may be deformed and deflected so that it would go through or penetrate parts of the brain, not in the usual direct line it was proceeding.

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Mr. SPECTER. Now, referring back to the press conference, did you define a tangential wound at that time?

Dr. CLARK. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And what else did you state at the press conference at 2:30 on November 22?

Dr. CLARK. I stated that the President had lost considerable blood, that one of the contributing causes of death was this massive blood loss, that I was unable to state how many wounds the President had sustained or from what angle they could have come. I finally remember stating that the President's wound was obviously a massive one and was insurvivable.

Mr. SPECTER. What did Dr. Perry say at that time, during the course of that press conference, when the cameras were operating?

Dr. CLARK. As I recall, Dr. Perry stated that there was a small wound h the President's throat, that he made the incision for the tracheotomy through this wound. He discovered that the trachea was deviated so he felt that the missile had entered the President's chest. He asked for chest tubes then to be placed in the pleural cavities. He was asked if this wound in the throat was an entrance wound or an exit wound. He said it was small and clean so it could have been an entrance wound.

Mr. SPECTER. Did he say anything else that you can recollect now in response to the question of whether it was a wound of entrance or exit?

Dr. CLARK. No, sir; I cannot recall.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you a part of a second press conference, Dr. Clark?

Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And when did that second press conference occur?

Dr. CLARK. On Saturday, the 23d.

Mr. SPECTER. At about what time?

Dr. CLARK. Sometime in the morning, as I recall.

Mr. SPECTER. Going back to the first press conference for just a minute, which television networks were involved on that ?

Dr. CLARK. Without sounding facetious, everyone, including some I had never heard of.

Mr. SPECTER. Can you recollect any besides the three major networks--ABC, CBS, and NBC?

Dr. CLARK. This is all I remember. I remember seeing in the room two reporters from Dallas newspapers whom I know and the radio and television stations were also present.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, going back to the second conference which I had started asking you about, had you had an opportunity to tell me what time of day that was?

Dr. CLARK. It was in the morning, as I recall.

Mr. SPECTER. And what television stations or networks were involved in the conference ?

Dr. CLARK. Again, all three major networks, and I believe through our local affiliates. It does not seem as though this one was as Jammed and as full as t first one.

Mr. SPECTER. And who arranged that press conference?

Dr. CLARK. That press conference was arranged by Mr. Steve Landregan assistant administrator and public relations officer for the hospital. This is his office.

Mr. SPECTER. And who spoke at that press conference while the television cameras were grinding?

Dr. CLARK. Dr. Perry and myself.

Mr. SPECTER. And what did you say at that time?

Dr. CLARK. Essentially the same thing as I had on the first press conference again defining tangential, and again describing the' President's wound as be massive and unsurvivable.

Mr. SPECTER. And what did Dr. Perry, at that time, say ?

Dr. CLARK. Dr. Perry said very little. He described the President's condition as he first saw him, when he was first called, and he described the manner which he was called to the emergency room.

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Mr. SPECTER. Did he say anything about whether the neck wound was a point of entry or exit?

Dr. CLARK. I do not remember---I specifically discussed this---may I add something to what I said in the first press conference?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes; please do, if you find something that comes to mind, please feel free to add that.

Dr. CLARK. All right. Let me check what I remember Dr. Perry said at the first press conference. He was asked if the neck wound could be a wound of entrance or appeared to be a wound of exit, and Dr. Perry said something like "possibly or conceivably," or something of this sort.

Mr. SPECTER. And, did he elaborate as to how that projectory would have been possible in that press conference?

Dr. CLARK. He did not elaborate on this. One of the reporters with gestures indicated the direction that such a bullet would have to take, and Dr. Perry quite obviously had to agree that this is the way it had to go to get from there to the top of his head.

Mr. SPECTER. But that was a possible trajectory under the circumstances?

Dr. CLARK. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. How would that have been postulated in terms of striking specific parts of the body ?

Dr. CLARK. Well, on a speculation, this would mean that the missile would have had to have been fired from below-- upward or that the President was hanging upside down.

Mr. SPECTER. Did Dr. Perry discuss anything with you prior to that second conference about a telephone call from Washington, D.C.?

Dr. CLARK. Yes; he did.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you relate briefly what Dr. Perry told you about that subject ?

Dr. CLARK. Yes; Dr. Perry stated that he had talked to the Bethesda Naval Hospital on two occasions that morning and that he knew what the autopsy findings had shown and that he did not wish to be questioned by the press, as he had been asked by Bethesda to confine his remarks to that which he knew from having examined the President, and suggested that the major part of this press conference be conducted by me.

Mr. SPECTER. Was anyone else present when he expressed those thoughts to you?

Dr. CLARK. I believe that Mr. Price and Dr. Shires were present. I could be wrong on that.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, were you a part of a third press conference?

Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And when did that occur?

Dr. CLARK. During the following week--I have forgotten exactly the day.

Mr. SPECTER And what networks were involved at that time ?

Dr. CLARK. It was CBS.

Mr. SPECTER. Was that a television conference?

Dr. CLARK. Yes; this was filmed.

Mr. SPECTER. And who arranged that conference?

Dr. CLARK. Again, Mr. Landregan.

Mr. SPECTER. And who spoke at that conference?

Dr. CLARK. Dr. Shaw, Dr. Shires, Dr. Baxter, Dr. McClelland, Dr. Jenkins, Dr. Gieseke, and myself.

Mr. SPECTER. Was Dr. Perry there at that time ?

Dr. CLARK. Yes; Dr. Perry was there.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you outline briefly what you said at that time, if it differed in any way from what you said before?

Dr. CLARK. No, sir; it did not.

Mr. SPECTER. What did Dr. Perry say at that time?

Dr. CLARK. Essentially the same thing that he had said before, describing the wound in the throat, describing the condition of the President, how he was called and so forth.

Mr. SPECTER. Did he comment at that time as to whether it was an entrance wound or an exit wound or what?

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Dr. CLARK. I don't remember.

Mr. SPECTER. And what did Dr. Shaw say at that time?

Dr. CLARK. Dr. Shaw described Governor Connally's chest wound. He described what was done for him, the operation in some detail. He described the fact that Governor Connally was conscious up until the time he was anesthetized in the operating room.

Mr. SPECTER. And what did Dr. Shires say at that time?

Dr. CLARK. Dr. Shires described the wounds suffered by Oswald and what was done in an attempt to save him.

Mr. SPECTER. And how about Dr. Gieseke, what did he say?

Dr. CLARK. Dr. Gieseke corroborated Dr. Shaw's statements regarding Governor Connally's condition and his remaining conscious until he was anesthetized by Dr. Gieseke.

Mr. SPECTER. What did Dr. Baxter say at that conference?

Dr. CLARK. Dr. Baxter described President Kennedy's condition as he saw it, stated that he had assisted in the placing in the chest tubes on President Kennedy, and that he had been present at Oswald's operation.

Mr. SPECTER. Did Dr. Baxter describe the neck wound that President Kennedy suffered with specific respect as to whether it was point of entry or exit?

Dr. CLARK. I don't remember--I don't believe he did.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, have we covered all the doctors who spoke at that press conference?

Dr. CLARK. Except Dr. Jenkins.

Mr. SPECTER. And what did Dr. Jenkins say at that time?

Dr. CLARK. Dr. Jenkins described being called to attend President Kennedy, how he got there with his anesthesia machine, that he found an endotrachea tube had already been inserted. He hooked up and he described the activities in the emergency room, operating room No. 1, and he described the stopping of the President's heart and the decision to pronounce him dead. He went ahead to describe the operation on Mr. Oswald and the extent of blood loss, etc., which he had sustained.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, were you involved in still a subsequent press conference?

Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir; I was.

Mr. SPECTER. And with whom was that press conference?

Dr. CLARK. This was with NBC and was approximately 2 weeks after the assassination.

Mr. SPECTER. And who arranged that press conference?

Dr. CLARK. Mr. Landregan.

Mr. SPECTER. And was that filmed?

Dr CLARK. Yes, that was also filmed.

Mr. SPECTER. And who spoke at that time?

Dr. CLARK. I spoke alone as a representative of the department and so in the conference.

Mr. SPECTER. And what did you say at that time?

Dr. CLARK. Essentially the same thing as had been stated before.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, were you a part of still another press conference?

Dr .CLARK. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. When was that?

Dr. CLARK. The week after the assassination.

Mr. SPECTER. And with whom was that press conference

Dr. CLARK. With BBC.

Mr. SPECTER. Who arranged that?

Dr. CLARK. Mr. Landregan, again.

Mr. SPECTER. And did anyone else participate in that press conference with you?

Dr. CLARK. No.

Mr. SPECTER. And was that televised, filmed, or simply recorded?

Dr. CLARK. It was simply recorded.

Mr. SPECTER. And what did you say at that time?

Dr. CLARK. Exactly the same thing as I have said at the previous conferences, describing the President's condition, his wound, and what transpired after I arrived.

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Mr. SPECTER. At any of the press conferences were you asked about a hole on the left side of the President's head?

Dr. CLARK. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. At which conference or conferences?

Dr. CLARK. I was asked about this at the CBS conference and I stated that I personally saw no such wound.

Mr. SPECTER. And who asked you about it at that time, if' you recall?

Dr. CLARK. The man who was conducting the conference. This was brought up by one of the physicians, I think Dr. McClelland, that there was some discussion of such a wound.

Mr. SPECTER. Did Dr. McClelland say that he had seen such a wound?

Dr. CLARK. No.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the origin, if you know, as to the inquiry on the wound, that is, who suggested that there might have been a wound on the left side?

Dr. CLARK. I don't recall--I don't recall.

Mr. SPECTER. Had there been some comment that the priests made a comment that there was a wound on the left side of the head?

Dr. CLARK. I heard this subsequently from one of the reporters who attended the press conference with NBC.

Mr. SPECTER. Were priests actually in trauma room 1 ?

Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Where were they in relation to the President at that time?

Dr. CLARK. They were on the right side of the President's body.

Mr. SPECTER Now, you described the massive wound at the top of the President's head, with the brain protruding; did you observe any other hole or wound on the President's head?

Dr. CLARK. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe, to make my question very specific, a bullet hole or what appeared to be a bullet hole in the posterior scalp, approximately 2.5 cm. laterally to the right, slightly above the external occipital protuberant, measuring 15 by 6 mm.

Dr. CLARK. No, sir; I did not. This could easily have been hidden in the blood and hair.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any bullet wounds or any other wound on the back side of the President?

Dr. CLARK. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. SPECTER. Was the President ever turned over while he was in the emergency room?

Dr. CLARK. Not in my presence; no, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And did you leave before, with, or after all the other doctors who were in attendance?

Dr. CLARK. I left after all the other doctors who were in attendance, because I stayed with Dr. Burkley until we had the death certificate signed and the arrangements had been made to transport the President's body out of Parkland Hospital.

Mr. SPECTER. You say Dr. Burkley or Buckley?

Dr. CLARK. Dr. Burkley.

Mr. SPECTER. That's the President's private physician?

Dr. CLARK. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Clark, would your observations be consistent with some other alleged facts in this matter, such as the presence of a lateral wound measuring 15 by 6 ram. on the posterior scalp approximately 2.5 cm. laterally to the right and slightly above the external occipital proturberant--that is to say, could such a hole have been present without your observing it?

Dr. CLARK. Yes, in the presence of this much destruction of skull and scalp above such a wound and lateral to it and the brief period of time available for examination--yes, such a wound could be present.

Mr. SPECTER. The physicians, surgeons who examined the President at the autopsy specifically, Commander James J. Humes, H-u-m-e-s (spelling); Commander J. Thornton Boswell, B-o-s-w-e-l-l (spelling), and Lt. Col. Pierre A. Finck, F-i-n-c-k (spelling), expressed the Joint opinion that the wound which

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I have just described as being 15 by 6 mm. and 2.5 cm. to the right and slightly above the external occipital protuberant was a point of entrance of a bullet in the President's head at a time when the President's head was moved slightly forward with his chin dropping into his chest, when he was riding in an open car at a slightly downhill position. With those facts being supplied to them in a hypothetical fashion, they concluded that the bullet would have taken a more or less straight course, exiting from the center of the President's skull at a point indicated by an opening from three portions of the skull reconstructed, which had been brought to them---would those findings and those conclusions be consistent with your observations if you assumed the additional facts which I have brought to your attention, in addition to those which you have personally observed?

Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Clark, in the line of your specialty, could you comment as to the status of the President with respect to competency, had he been able to survive the head injuries which you have described and the total wound which he had?

Dr. CLARK. This, of course, is a question of tremendous importance. Just let me state that the loss of cerebrellar tissue would probably have been of minimal consequence in the performance of his duties. The loss of the right occipital and probably part of the right parietal lobes would have been of specific importance. This would have led to a visual field deficit, which would have interfered in a major way with his ability to read, not the interpretation of reading matter per se, but the acquisition of information from the printed page. He would have had specific difficulty with finding the next line in a book or paper. This would have proven to be a specific handicap in getting information on which, as the President of the United States, he would have to act.

How much damage he would have had to his motor system, that is, the ability to control or coordinate his left extremities, I would not know. This conceivably could have been a problem in enabling him to move about, to appear in public, et cetera. Finally, and probably most important, since the brain, far as at its higher levels, largely as a unit, the loss of this much brain tissue likely would have impaired his ability in abstract reasoning, imagination; whereas, the part of the President's brain struck is not that part specifically concerned with these matters. The effect of loss of considerable brain tissue does affect the total performance of the organ in these matters. There would be grave doubts in my mind as to our ability as physicians to give a clear answer regarding his ability to function as President of the United States.

Our ability to judge this is sometimes sorely tried when dealing with people with considerably less intellectual and moral demands made upon them.

Mr. SPECTER. Doctor, did you prepare certain written reports based on your participation in the treatment of President Kennedy?

Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. SPECTER. And I now show you a document which has been supplied to the President's Commission, which we have marked as Commission Exhibit No. 392, and I now show you the second and third sheets, which purport to be the summary made by you and ask if that was prepared by you?

Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir; it was.

Mr. SPECTER. And, are the facts set forth in those two sheets true and correct?

Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And I now show you a 2 3/4-page summary which purports to bear your signature, being dated November 22, 1963, and I ask you if that, in fact, is your signature?

Dr. CLARK. Yes; it is.

Mr. SPECTER. And, was, in fact, this report made in your own hand concerning the treatment which you rendered to the President?

Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER And are the facts set forth therein true and correct?

Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you made any other written report or other writings of any sort concerning this matter?

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Dr. CLARK. No; I have not.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you been interviewed or discussed this matter with any Federal representative prior to today?

Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir; I have.

Mr. SPECTER. And whom did you talk to?

Dr. CLARK. I talked to an FBI agent a few days after the assassination, in Mr. Jack Price's office.

Mr. SPECTER. And who is Mr. Price, for the record at this point?

Dr. CLARK. He is .the administrator of Parkland Memorial Hospital. This agent asked me if I had recovered any missiles or fragments of missiles from the President's body. I said I did not, and he asked me if I knew of anyone in

Parkland Hospital who had recovered such evidence and I assured him I did not.

Mr. SPECTER. Did he ask you anything further?

Dr. CLARK. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you tell him anything further?

Dr. CLARK. No, sir. I offered to answer any questions he might have asked and he said that was all he wished to know.

Mr. SPECTER. And did you talk to any other representative of the Federal Government at any time before today?

Dr. CLARK. Yes; I talked to a member of the Secret Service approximately a .month after the assassination. I talked to him on ,two occasions, once by phone, and he asked me if I had a copy of the written report submitted by Dr. Ronald Jones, and I told him I did not.

I subsequently talked to him in person. He showed me the summary that I prepared .and sent to Dr. Burkley, the same document I just identified here, and my own handwritten report of the events of the afternoon of the 22d of November. He asked me if I prepared these and I told him I had. He asked me if I had any other written records. I told him I did not. He said,

"Do you have any additional information than you have written?" I said I did not. He thanked me very much for coming.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you now summarized all of the conversations you have

had with any representative of the Federal Government prior to today?

Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And have you had any conversations with any representative of the State government prior to today?

Dr. CLARK. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Before you were sworn in to have your deposition taken, did you and I have a discussion about this matter?

Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir; a pleasant discussion of what the function of this Commission is.

Mr. SPECTER. And, also, all of what I would be asking once the record was

open and we started taking your deposition?

Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And have we covered on the record with the court reporter transcribing all the subjects which you and I discussed informally and prior to the start of the more formal session here?

Dr. CLARK. Yes, air.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything which you would care to add, which you think might possibly be helpful to the Commission in any way, Dr. Clark?

Dr. CLARK. No, sir; I'm afraid I don't.

Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much for coming. We surely appreciate it, Dr. Clark. Thank you, Dr. Clark.

Dr. CLARK. Thank you.

TESTIMONY OF DR. KEMP CLARK RESUMED

The testimony of Dr. Kemp Clark was taken at 12:05 p.m., on March 25, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex. by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

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Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that Dr. Kemp Clark has returned to have a few additional questions asked of him following the deposition which was taken on March 21.

Dr. Clark, the purpose of this additional deposition is the same as the first one, except that I am going to ask you a few additional questions based upon a translation of an article which appeared in "L' Express", which has been provided to me since the deposition of last Saturday.

Would you please stand up again and raise your right hand?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you will give before the President's Commission in this deposition proceeding will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Dr. CLARK. I do.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Clark, I have made available to you, have I not, what purports to be a translation from French of the "L' Express" issue of February 20, 1964?

Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And let me read for the record and for you this excerpt.

"On his part according to the New York Times of November 27, 'Dr. Kemp Clark, who signed the Kennedy death certificate, declared that a bullet hit him right where the knot of his necktie was.' He added," apparently referring to you, " 'this bullet penetrated into his chest and did not come out'. The surgeon went on to say that .the second wound of the President was 'tangential' and that it had been caused by a bullet which hit 'the right side of his head' "

Dr. Clark, my first question is--what, if anything, did you say to a New York Times representative or anyone, for that matter, with respect to whether a bullet hit the President where the knot of his necktie was.

Dr. CLARK. I remember using the phrase to describe the location of a wound in the President's throat as being at the point of his knot of his necktie. I do not recall ever specifically stating that this was an entrance wound, as has been said before. I was not present when the President arrived and did not see this wound. If any statement regarding its entrance or exit was made by me, it was indicating that there was a small wound described there by the physicians who first saw the President.

A specific quotation regarding entrance or exit, I feel, is a partial quotation or incompletely quoted from me. The part pertaining to the bullet entering the President's chest rests on the reasons for the placing of the chest tubes which were being inserted when I arrived. It was the assumption, based on the previously described deviation of the trachea and the presence of blood in the strap muscles of the neck that a wound or missile wound might have entered the President's chest.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, what was there, Dr. Clark, in the deviation of the trachea and the presence of blood in the strap muscles of the neck which so indicated?

Dr. CLARK. Assuming that a missile had entered the pleural space, if there had been bleeding into the pleural space, the trachea would have been deviated or had there been leakage of air into the pleural space, the trachea would have been deviated, as it is the main conduit of air to the two lungs. Collapse of a lung would have produced, or will produce deviation of the trachea. There being a wound in the throat, there being blood in the strap muscles and there being deviation of the trachea in the presence of a grievously wounded patient without opportunity for X-ray or other diagnostic measures, Dr. Perry assumed that the findings in the neck were due to penetration of the missile into the chest. For this reason, he requested chest tubes to be placed.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, is the deviation of the trachea and the presence of bleeding on the strap muscles of the neck and the other factors which you have recited equally consistent with a wound of exit on the neck?

Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir. Furthermore, let me say that the presence of the deviation of the trachea, with blood in the strap muscles, are by no means diagnostic of penetration of the chest, and the placing of the chest tubes was prophylactic had such an eventuality occurred.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there any external indication that there was a missile in the chest?

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Dr. CLARK. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Was it the preliminary thought that the missile might have been in the chest by virtue of the fact that this wound was noted on the neck?

Dr. CLARK. Yes; with the other factors I have enumerated.

Mr. SPECTER. And at that time, not knowing what the angle might have been or any of the surrounding circumstances, then you proceeded to take precautionary measures as if there might have been a missile in the chest at some point?

Dr. CLARK.. That is correct. Measures were taken, assuming the worst had happened.

Mr. SPECTER. As the quotation appears in the issue of "L' Express," "This bullet penetrated into his chest and did not come out," would that then be an accurate quotation of something that you said, Dr. Clark?

Dr. CLARK. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Clark, while you are here again, I would like to ask you a few additional questions.

Let the record show that since I have taken your deposition, I have taken the depositions of many additional witnesses and none has been transcribed, so I am not in a position to refer to a record to see what I asked you before or to frankly recollect precisely what I asked you before, so, to some extent these questions may be overlapping. Did you observe the President's back at that time when he was in the emergency room?

Dr. CLARK. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the reason for your not looking at his back?

Dr. CLARK. First, the duration of time that the President was alive in the emergency room was a brief duration. All efforts were bent toward saving his life rather than inspection for precise location of wounds. After his death it was not our position to try to evaluate all of the conceivable organs or areas of the body, knowing that an autopsy would be performed and that this would be far more meaningful than a cursory external examination here.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there any bleeding wound in the President's back?

Dr. CLARK. In the back of his head.

Mr. SPECTER. But how about on the back of his body, was there any bleeding wound noted?

Dr. CLARK. Since we did not turn the President over, I cannot answer that specifically. We saw none, as I previously stated.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you undertake any action to ascertain whether there had been a violation to a major extent of the back part of his body?

Dr. CLARK. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. That is, none was taken by you personally?

Dr. CLARK. That's correct.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Carrico testified earlier today, being the first doctor to reach him, that he felt the President's back to determine whether there was any major violation of that area. Would that be a customary action to take to ascertain whether there was any major wound, by the doctor who first examined the patient?

Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Assuming that the President had a bullet wound of entry on the upper right-posterior thorax, just above the upper border of the scapula, 14 cms. from the right acromion process, 14 cm. below the tip of the right mastoid process, would there have been a bloody type wound?

Dr. CLARK. I'm sorry--your question?

Mr. SPECTER. Would such a wound of entry by a missile traveling approximately 2,000 feet per second, approximately

Dr. CLARK. No, sir. Such a wound could have easily been overlooked in the presence of the much larger wound in the right occipital region of the President's skull, from which considerable blood loss had occurred which stained the back of his head, neck and upper shoulders.

Mr. SPECTER, Dr. Clark, I want to ask you a question as it is raised here in "L' Express".

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"How did the practitioner who signed the death certificate of the President fail to take the trouble to turn him over?" Of course, that refers to you and will you give me your answer to that question, as the news media has posed it?

Dr. CLARK. Quite simply, as I previously stated, the duration of time the President was alive was occupied by attempts to save his life. When these failed, further examination of the patient's body was not done, as it was felt that little could be gained or learned that would be helpful in deciding the course of events leading up to his assassination, that is, examination by me, as I knew an autopsy would be performed which would be far more meaningful and revealing than any cursory external examination conducted in the emergency room by me.

Mr. SPECTER.. Now, was the action taken by you in signing the death certificate based upon the examination which you made in accordance with what you believed to be good medical practice?

Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. So that the characterization here of "L' Express" that the failure to turn the President over would not constitute gross negligence in your professional Judgment, as they have characterized it here.

Dr. CLARK. No, sir. One other point, if I may here?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes.

Dr. CLARK. In order to move the President's body to Bethesda where the autopsy was to be performed, a death certificate had to be filled out in conformance with Texas State law to allow the body to be transported.

This is the second part of the signing of the death certificate.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add, Dr. Clark, which you think might be helpful at all in the inquiry being made by the President's Commission?

Dr. CLARK. NO; I don't think so.

Mr. SPECTER. And did you and I chat for just a moment or two about the questions I would ask you on this supplemental deposition before it went on the record?

Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And have you talked to any representative of the Federal Government between the time I took your deposition last Saturday and this Wednesday morning?

Dr. CLARK. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much, Dr. Clark.

Dr. CLARK. All right.

Dr. Robert Nelson McClelland

Dr. LIGHT Volume V

TESTIMONY OF DR. FREDERICK W. LIGHT, JR.

Mr. DULLES. Doctor, would you give your full name?

Dr. LIGHT. Frederick W. Light, Jr.

Mr. DULLES. Would you raise your right hand? Do you swear that the testimony that you will give before this Commission is the truth, the whole truth, so help you God?

Dr. LIGHT. I do.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Light, the purpose of asking you to appear today is to question you concerning the results of tests taken at the Edgewood Arsenal. With that brief statement of purpose, I will ask you to state your full name for the record, please.

Dr. LIGHT. Frederick W. Light, Jr.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your business or profession, sir?

Dr. LIGHT. I am a physician specializing in pathology.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your educational background?

Dr. LIGHT. I have an A.B. from Lafayette in 1926, M.D. from Johns Hopkins Medical School in 1930, and Ph.D. from Hopkins in 1948.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you outline your experience since 1933 in a very general way, please?

Dr. LIGHT. Well, in 1933 I was still at the Reading Hospital, resident in pathology. Between then and 1940 I was pathologist in Clarksburg, W. Va., and later in Springfield, Ill. In 1940 I returned to Johns Hopkins University to study mathematics for awhile.

Mr. DULLES. To study mathematics?

Dr. LIGHT. Yes. And then in 1952, or 1951, excuse me, I began working at Edgewood Arsenal where I am at the present time.

Mr. SPECTER. What have your duties consisted of while working at Edgewood Arsenal?

Dr. LIGHT. Primarily the study of pathology of wounding.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your formal title there now, Dr. Light?

Dr. LIGHT. I am chief of the Wound Assessment Branch and assistant chief of the Biophysics Division.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is your relationship to Dr. Olivier and Dr. Dziemian?

Dr. LIGHT. Dr. Dziemian is the chief of the division. Dr. Olivier is chief of one of the branches, and I am chief of one of the other branches.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you been present here today to hear the full testimony of Dr. Olivier?

Dr. LIGHT. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And were the tests which he described conducted under your joint supervision with Dr. Olivier?

Dr. LIGHT. Only a very general way. I wouldn't want to say I supervised him at all. We discussed what he was going to do.

Mr. SPECTER. Would it be more accurate to state that you coordinated with him in the tests which were under his general supervision?

Dr. LIGHT. Yes; that might be stretching it a bit even.

Mr. SPECTER. How would you characterize your participation?

Dr. LIGHT. Largely---originally Dr. Dziemian, as I recall, was ill, and by the

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time we began to do these specific tests that you mention, Dr. Dziemian was back on the job again. So he took over whatever supervision was needed.

Mr. SPECTER. Were the tests which Dr. Olivier described made at the request of the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy?

Dr. LIGHT. Yes; they were.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add by way of any detail to the findings reported by Dr. Olivier in his testimony here earlier today?

Dr. LIGHT. No; I think he covered it very thoroughly.

Mr. SPECTER. And as to the conclusions and opinions which he expressed, do you agree or disagree, to some extent, on his conclusions?

Dr. LIGHT. I agree in general at least. I am not quite so certain about some of the things, but generally I certainly agree with what he said.

Mr. DULLES. What are the things on which you are not quite so certain?

Dr. LIGHT. For example, I am not quite as sure in my mind as I believe he is that the bullet that struck the Governor was almost certainly one which had hit something else first. I believe it could have produced that wound even though it hadn't hit the President or any other person or object first.

Mr. DULLES. That is the wound, then, in the thigh?

Dr. LIGHT. No; in the chest.

Mr. DULLES. I was thinking that the wound in the thigh--let me start again. As I understand the previous testimony, Dr. Olivier would have expected the wound in the thigh to be more serious if it had not hit some object.

Dr. LIGHT. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. Prior to entering Governor Connally's body, but you feel that the wound in the thigh might be consistent?

Dr. LIGHT. The wound in the thigh is the terminal end, is the far end of the whole track. I don't believe that in passing through the tissue which was simulated by what Dr. Olivier described first, 13 or 14 centimeters of gelatin, I don't believe that the change in velocity introduced by the passage through that much tissue can be relied upon to make such a definite difference in the effect.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you believe that if the Governor had been struck by a pristine bullet which had gone through his chest, that it would have caused no more damage than which appeared on the Governor's chest?

Dr. LIGHT. I think that is possible; yes. I might say I think perhaps the best, the most likely thing is what everyone else has said so far, that the bullet did go through the President's neck and then through the chest and then through the wrist and then into the thigh.

Mr. SPECTER. You think that is the most likely possibility?

Dr. LIGHT. I think that is probably the most likely, but I base that not entirely on the anatomical findings but as much on the circumstances.

Mr. SPECTER. What are the circumstances which lead you to that conclusion?

Dr. LIGHT. The relative positions in the automobile of the President and the Governor.

Mr. SPECTER. Are there any other circumstances which contribute to that conclusion, other than the anatomical findings?

Dr. LIGHT. And the appearance of the bullet that was found and the place it was found, presumably, the bullet was the one which wounded the Governor.

Mr. SPECTER. The whole bullet?

Dr. LIGHT. The whole bullet.

Mr. SPECTER. Identified as Commission Exhibit No. 399?

Dr. LIGHT. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And what about that whole bullet leads you to believe that the one bullet caused the President's neck wound and all of the wounds on Governor Connally?

Dr. LIGHT. Nothing about that bullet. Mainly the position in which they are seated in the automobile.

Mr. SPECTER. So in addition to the----

Dr. LIGHT. And the fact that the bullet that passed through the President's body lost very little velocity since it passed through soft tissue, so that it would strike the Governor, if it did, with a velocity only, what was it, 100 feet per second, very little lower than it would have if it hadn't struck anything else

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first. I am not sure, I didn't see, of course, none of us saw the wounds in the Governor in the fresh state or any other time, and I am not too convinced from the measurements and the descriptions that were given in the surgical reports and so on that the actual holes through the skin were unusually large.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you had access to the autopsy records?

Dr. LIGHT. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And have you had access to the reports of Parkland Hospital on the Governor's operations there?

Dr. LIGHT. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. All three of them?

Dr. LIGHT. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And have you had an opportunity to view the films of the assassination commonly known as the Zapruder films?

Dr. LIGHT. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And the slides?

Dr. LIGHT. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And have you had an opportunity to talk to Dr. Shaw and Dr. Gregory who performed the thoracic and wrist operations on Governor Connally?

Dr. LIGHT. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And you heard Governor Connally's version yourself?

Dr. LIGHT. Yes; but not in----

Mr. SPECTER. Not in the Commission?

Dr. LIGHT. Not in the Commission session.

Mr. SPECTER. But at the time when the films were viewed by the Governor?

Dr. LIGHT. Yes; I did.

Mr. SPECTER. At the VFW building on the first floor?

Dr. LIGHT. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Focusing on a few of the specific considerations, do you believe that there would have been the same amount of damage done to the Governor's wrist had the pristine bullet only passed through the Governor's body without striking the President first?

Dr. LIGHT. I think that is possible; yes. It won't happen the same way twice in any case, so you have got a fairly wide range of things that can happen if a person is shot in more or less this way.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you think it is as likely that the damage would have been inflicted on the Governor's wrist as it was, with the bullet passing only through the Governor's chest as opposed to passing through the President's neck and the Governor's chest?

Dr. LIGHT. I think the difference in likelihood is negligible on that basis alone.

Mr. SPECTER. So the damage on the Governor's wrist would be equally consistent----

Dr. LIGHT, Equally consistent; yes.

Mr. SPECTER. With (A) passing only through the Governor's chest, or (B) passing through the President's neck and the Governor's chest?

Dr. LIGHT. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, as to the damage on the thigh, would the nature of that wound again be equally consistent with either going through (A) the President's neck, the Governor's chest, the Governor's wrist, and then into the thigh, or (B) only through the Governor's chest, the Governor's wrist and into the thigh?

Dr. LIGHT. I'd say equally consistent; yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And based on the descriptions which have been provided to you about the nature of the wound on the Governor's back, do you have an opinion as to whether the bullet was yawing or not at the time it struck the Governor's back?

Mr. LIGHT. No; I don't. That is really one of the points----

Mr. SPECTER. It would be either way?

Dr. LIGHT. Yes; I don't feel too certain that it was yawing. The measurements were not particularly precise as far as I could tell. You wouldn't expect them to be in an operating room. So I think it is difficult to be sure there that

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the missile wasn't presenting nose on. It undoubtedly struck not at normal instance, that is to say it was a certain obliquity, just in the nature of the way the shoulder is built.

Mr. SPECTER. Then do you think based on only the anatomical findings and the results of the tests which Dr. Olivier has performed that the scales are in equipoise as to whether the bullet passed through the President first and then through the Governor or passed only through the Governor?

Dr. LIGHT. Yes; I would say I don't feel justified in drawing a conclusion one way or the other on that basis alone.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any preference of any sort?

Dr. LIGHT. Yes; I do, for other reasons.

Mr. SPECTER. But only for the other reasons?

Dr. LIGHT. As I mentioned, their positions in the automobile, the fact that if it wasn't the way--if one bullet didn't produce all of the wounds in both of the individuals, then that bullet ought to be somewhere, and hasn't been found. But those are not based on Dr. Olivier's tests nor are they based on the autopsy report or the surgeon's findings in my mind.

( Discussion off the record.)

Mr. DULLES. On the record.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Light, do you have an opinion as to whether or not the wound inflicted on Governor Connally's wrist could have been caused by a fragment which struck the President's head?

Dr. LIGHT. It is barely conceivable but I do not believe that that is the case.

Mr. SPECTER. You say barely?

Dr. LIGHT. Barely conceivable. I mean a fragment probably had enough velocity, it couldn't have produced that wound, in my mind, but it can't be ruled out with complete certainty.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add which you think would be helpful to the Commission in any way?

Dr. LIGHT. I don't believe I do.

Mr. SPECTER. Those are all the questions I have, Commissioner Dulles.

Mr. DULLES. Thank you very much indeed. I express our appreciation. I didn't realize these tests were being carried out. I am very glad they have been. It is a very useful thing to do and very helpful to the Commission. Thank you very much I want to thank all three of you doctors for having so fully cooperated in this matter, and I think that these tests that you have run have made a real contribution to the Commission's work.

(Whereupon, at 5:10 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)

Dr. MARTIN WHITE Volume VI

TESTIMONY OF DR. MARTIN G. WHITE

The testimony of Dr. Martin G. White was taken at 6:35 p.m., on March 25, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex.. by Mr. Arlen Specter assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that Dr. Martin White is present in response to a request that be appear to have his deposition taken because he has been identified in prior depositions as being one of the doctors in attendance on President Kennedy.

Dr. White, have you had an opportunity to examine the Executive order creating the Presidential Commission?

Dr. WHITE. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And have you had an opportunity to examine the resolution setting forth the rules for taking depositions?

Dr. WHITE Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you willing to have your deposition taken without the 3-day notice to which you have a right under the rules, if you wish to receive formal written notice? And have three days after mailing before you appear to have your deposition taken?

Dr. WHITE. No, I want to have it taken now.

Mr. SPECTER. You are willing to waive that requirement?

Dr. WHITE. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you stand up, then, and raise your right hand?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give before the President's Commission in this deposition proceeding will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Dr. WHITE. I do.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you state your full name for the record, please?

Dr. WHITE.. Martin G. White.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your profession, sir?

Dr. WHITE. M.D.--physician.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you duly licensed in the State of Texas to practice medicine?

Dr. WHITE. In this institution.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your educational background, please?

Dr. WHITE. I have a bachelor of medicine degree from Northwestern University and a master of science degree from Northwestern University and a doctor of medicine degree from Northwestern University.

Mr. SPECTER. How old are you, Doctor?

Dr. WHITE. Twenty-five.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you in attendance when President Kennedy was being treated on November 22, 1963?

Dr. WHITE. I was.

Mr. SPECTER. And what were the circumstances of your being called into the case?

Dr. WHITE. I was the intern assigned to the surgery section of the emergency room on that day and was there when the President's body was brought into the emergency room.

Mr. SPECTER. And what did you do in connection with the President's treatment?

Dr. WHITE. I put an intervenous cutdown in the President's right foot.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have an opportunity to observe any of his wounds?

Dr. WHITE. I saw the wound in his head as he was brought into the trauma room where he was treated.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any other wounds?

Dr. WHITE. No, I did not see any other.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe specifically a wound in the neck?

Dr. WHITE. I did not look and did not observe any.

Mr.-SPECTER. How long were you present while the President was being treated?

Dr. WHITE. I would estimate about 10 to 15 minutes.

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Mr. SPECTER. And did you leave prior to the time he was pronounced to be dead ?

Dr. WHITE. Yes; I did.

Mr. SPECTER. Why did you leave?

Dr. WHITE. My duties had been completed and there was work elsewhere, with the Governor, to be done.

Mr. SPECTER. Who was present at the time you were there, Dr. White?

Dr. WHITE. As best I can recall, Dr. Carrico and I were the physicians immediately present when the President's body was brought in, plus a number of individuals who accompanied the cart on which his body was lying, and the only individual who I knew in that group was his wife, Mrs. Kennedy.

Mr. SPECTER. And what doctors were present at the time you left the room?

Dr. WHITE. Well, it would be impossible for me to tell you all the people that were there, but I knew Dr. Carrico, Dr. Baxter, Dr. Perry and Dr. Zedelitz, Z-e-d-e-l-i-t-z (spelling)--I know they were there.

Mr. SPECTER. Doctor who--what is his first name?

Dr. WHITE. William Zedelitz.

Mr. SPECTER. To what extent did he participate?

Dr. WHITE. I don't believe that he had any--I don't know what he did other than the fact that when I was doing the cutdown he assisted me by just placing some tape over the catheters we used to do this with.

Mr. SPECTER. Is he an intern as you are?

Dr. WHITE. He is a surgical resident here at this hospital.

Mr. SPECTER. Who else was present?

Dr. WHITE. I can't be sure that I saw anyone else, although, as I say--many people were there whose faces I can't recall.

Mr. SPECTER. Can you identify any of the nurses who were present?

Dr. WHITE. Yes; one of the nurses--there were two there, Jeanette, and her last name--I don't know at the present time, and she is chief nurse in the emergency room.

Mr. SPECTER. Doris Nelson?

Dr. WHITE. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Jeanette Standridge?

Dr. WHITE. Yes; Jeanette Standridge was the other nurse.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add which you think might be of help to the Commission?

Dr. WHITE. No; I don't.

Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much, Dr. White for coming.

Dr. WHITE. All right, thank you.