PRESSURE DR. PERRY
SECRET SERVICE AGENT ELMER MOORE
Agency: HSCA
Record Number: 180-10109-10310
Agency File Number: 014182
Originator: HSCA
From: Gilbert, Howard M.
Title: Phone Interview; Gochenaur
Date: 06/01/77
Pages: 28
Subjects:
Gatton [sic - Gayton], Carver
Hosty, James
Moore, Elmer
Oswald, Lee Harvey
FBI; Association with Oswald, Lee Harvey
Conspiracy Theory
Box: 252
***
Select Committee of Assassination
U.S. House of Representatives
3342 House Office Building, Annex 2
Washington, D.C. 20515
June 1, 19 77
MEMORANDUM TO: Robert K. Tanenbaum
FROM: Howard M. Gilbert
SUBJECT: Telephone interview of Gochenaur
DATE: June 1, 1977
According to critic R. E. Sprague, he had been informed by James
Gochenaur that Gochenaur had had conversations with former FBI agent Carver
Gayton. According to Sprague, Gayton told Gochenaur that James Hosty had
stated that Lee Harvey Oswald was a paid informant who had been giving
information regarding the potential assassination of Kennedy. During the
telephone conversation with Gochenaur, he con-firmed the fact that he had had
conversations with Carver Gayton at the University of Washington, and that
Gayton had told Gochenaur that he, Gayton, and Hosty had worked together at the
Kansas City office after Hosty had been transferred from Dallas. Gochenaur
related that Hosty had said that Oswald had been paid by the FBI to inform, but
that Oswald had not come up with any information. According to Gochenaur,
there had been no discussion of an assassination, but that Hosty had gone to find
Oswald when he didn't make his re-port. Gochenaur also allegedly had
conversations with Secret Service agent Elmer Moore regarding the Secret
Service's feelings about Kennedy, and that Moore allegedly said that he had
induced one of the treating physicians in Dallas to change his statement. A tape
recording of the Gochenaur telephone conversation was made with the consent of
Gochenaur and a transcript is now being prepared. The address where
Gochenaur may be reached is contained in the transcript. Gochenaur gave an
affidavit to Senator Church with Gochenaur promised to send me, but hasn't.
HMG:mw
Telephone interview of: James Gochenaur
Interviewed by: Howard M. Gilbert
Date: May 10, 1977
Time: 3:20 p.m. EST
G: (Above information) . . . I am on the telephone with Mr. James Gochenaur, G-
o-c-h-e-n-a-u-r, is that correct, Mr. Gochenaur?
JG: That's right.
G: All right, and I have indicated to Mr. Gochenaur that I would like to tape this
telephone conversation, in lieu of taking written notes, with his permission. Is that
right?
JG: That's right.
G: And do you give your permission that this telephone conversation may be
recorded. Is that correct?
JG: Right, could you do me a favor?
G: Sure.
JG: Could you send me a transcript of it?
G: Certainly.
JG: Ah, thank you.
G: Your address, let me make sure I have your address correct. Is it 3515 E.
Tesch St.?
JG: Ha, no, I'm moving, but the problem is, I've forgotten the number, I want you
to mail it to my parents . . . .
G: Oh, you'd like it mailed to your parents address, and what is that?
JG: 2930 . . .
G: 2930
[end of page one of transcript]
2.
JG: South Harmon.
G. South Harmon.
JG: Milwaukee, and that's 53207.
G: Mil-waukee, [sic] what is the number?
JG: 53207.
G: 53207, Milwaukee, WI. OK? And why don't you give me their phone number,
too, just to . . . .
JG: 481-
G: 481-
JG: 2052
G: 2052
JG: Area code is 414. (414-481-2052)
G: Now Jim, let me just make sure that this is recording, so lets, stop for a
second and let me just check that.
JG: OK.
G: Now, what I'd like you to do is go back and go through this chronologically, as
to the first contact that you ever had with a man by the name of Carver Gayton.
And would you spell his last name for me please?
JG: G-a- G-a-t-
G: -t-e-n?
JG: -t-o-n, yeah, something like that. Carver.
G: It's either -ton or -ten.
JG: Right, -ton, I believe.
G: -ton, and his first name is Carver, C-a-r-v-e-r?
JG: Right.
G: And where was Mr. Gayton when you first met him?
[end of page two of transcript]
3.
JG: Ah, the situation was that my wife and I were looking for another apartment in
Seattle.
G: Seattle, Washington?
JG: Right. We were on 135 Harvard Ave. at that time, and my wife responded to
an an [sic] ad in the paper, and ah, called the guy, and gave him the particulars on
what we were looking for, what we were willing to pay, and everything, and he
said that he made a point of meeting the people before he, ah, you know, would
rent.
G: OK.
JG: Ah, he did come over and this was in December or 19- ah, I believe 1971.
G: December 1971 - were you a student at that time? Or working in
Washington?
JG: 1970, make it 1970, I blew it. Ah, yeah, I was a student at that time, at the
University of Washington in Seattle.
G: December of 1970. All right.
JG: Right.
G: And Gayton come [sic] over - or you went over to Gayton's?
JG: No, he came over to our place, he said he was in the area -- he didn't live too
far from where we were.
G: OK.
JG: And he came over, and talked for a while, and he mentioned that he'd
happened to have been an ex-FBI agent.
G: Did he initiate that usbject? [sic]
JG: Yes.
G: Now prior to your conversation with Gayton, had you had any connection at all
with the Kennedy assassination investigation?
JG: Not directly. What had happened prior to that is that I had been talking with
two people, one was a fellow who was involved with the Seattle Secret Service,
and I had met him in a sort of oblique way, and ah, what had happened was that I
was trying to get some photographs that had been taken in Dealy [sic] Plaza at
that time and I was going to make some photo silk-screen decals of them for an
art project.
G: OK.
JG: And when I tried to locate how I could get ahold of the
[end of the page three of the transcript]
4.
photographs, the UPI said that I'd have to call the Secret Service. And when I
called the Secret Service, I got, ah, this guy, ah, on the line, this Elmer Moore, and
started talking with me, and ah . . . .
G: OK. Well, let's take Mr. Moore at the -- after we finish with Mr. Gayton.
JG: Yeah, right, well, I'm saying what he . . . .
G: Right, I just wanted to know what information you had, so we know that you
had something.
JG: Ah, very, very skinty.
G: OK. Now Gayton mentioned in, ah, now did you bring that, elicit that, that he
had been a former FBI agent, or did he volunteer it?
JG: No, he - ah, I , he a - he asked me what I was doing and what my goals and
plans were, and after I told him, I said, by the way, what do you do? He said, well,
I used to be an FBI agent, since he's a black guy, you know, I said -- Oh, yeah?
'Cause I didn't really believe there were black FBI agents. OK?
G: All right.
JG: And, ah, he says, of sure I was, and we started talking and we talked about,
you know, all the whole situation at that time, Spiro Agnew was into his thing, you
know, and we were going on about various different subjects, and it finally came
around to the fact that he was very disturbed by the King assassination thing.
G: All right.
JG: Very, very disturbed. He said, by the way, by a curious coincidence, he said,
I happened to have been in, ah, assigned to the Kansas City field office . . . .
G: Now, is that Kansas City, MO.? [sic]
JG: Right.
G: OK.
JG: He was assigned to that office right after he got out of the FBI academy,
apparently.
G: Now do you recall what year that would have been? Did he indicate to you
what year he was assigned to that field office?
JG: He did say it a year, but I can't remember it.
G: All right.
[end of page four of transcript]
5.
G: Go ahead.
JG: Anyway, he didn't, he did say that he was talking with a guy by the name of
Hosty, that had been . . .
G: H-o-s-t-y?
JG: Right. Jim Hosty, who had been intimately involved with the Oswalds.
G: All right.
JG: And he said . . . .
G: He vol-, ex-, let me interrupt just for a second. Ah, Gayton was volunteering
this information to you?
JG: Right, well, I was asking him some questions as it was rolling along. We, it
was a very long conversation, you know?
G: OK.
JG: And I offered him some, ah, refreshment there, you know, and everything, we
were sitting there talking about it.
G: Do you recall the address where you were when he had this conversation with
you?
JG: Yeah, 135 E. Harvard Ave. [sic] in Seattle.
G: OK, and was your wife present also?
JG: Yes.
G: Was there anyone else present?
JG: (no audible reply)
G: I understand now, let me just see if my notes are correct, I was told by Dick
Sprague that perhaps other [sic] researcher had also been present at the time of
your conversation with Gayton.
JG: No, no, no.
G: OK.
JG: No, ah, just my wife and myself and ah, her sister was there for a little bit.
G: What was her sisters [sic] name?
JG: Tina Tingle.
G: And do you know, how old was she at that time?
[end of page five of transcript]
6.
JG: Seventeen, no, she would have been, take that back, she would have been
sixteen.
G: All right, and do you have a present address for her?
JG: No, I don't, I could get it . . . .
G: Is she -- are you still married to the same woman?
JG: No.
G: All right. What is Tina Tingle's name at this time, do you know?
JG: I'm assuming, ok, that it's the same.
G: All right, but you could locate her for us?
JG: Sure.
G: All right, would you go back in the conversation to the point that Gayton started
talking about the Oswald's [sic] and Hosty.
JG: Right, OK. He brought up the -- he says, by the way, he says, I said to him, I
said, you know there's some speculation, uh, words to this effect, and, I mean,
there's some speculation that Oswald was connected with the government, at
some point. He says -- oh, he was. I said, oh, you know that for a fact? He say,
[sic] oh, yeah. Hosty told me that he was, ah, what he was a security, ah,
potential security informant.
G: Now, did he say that Hosty used the term potential security informant?
JG: I -- yeah, that was his [sic] first thing that he said.
G: OK.
JG: And he said that, ah, the problem with Oswald was that he wasn't doing any
informing.
G: You mean he wasn't turning in sufficient information?
JG: He wasn't doing anything, apparently.
G: All right.
JG: He said that Hosty was irritated, he was getting pressure to find out why
Oswald wasn't giving information.
G: OK.
[end of page six of transcript]
7.
JG: And, ah, that he was running around trying to pressure Oswald into talking
with him about it at some length,
but . . . .
G: Did he, that'd be Gayton, indicate what type of information that Oswald was
supposed to be giving to the FBI?
JG: No.
G: Did he indicate at that time whether or not Oswald was to be paid for the
information? Or was he receiving money at that time from the FBI?
JG: I'm trying to get it straight. I think that -- that he told me that Oswald was
being paid. He was being given a certain amount of money, but that Oswald
wasn't, 1) [sic] I can't remember distinctly, Oswald wasn't showing up at his drops,
he wasn't leaving the kind of information at these drops that he was supposed to,
and that he just simply wasn't communicating with the Bureau.
G: All right. Was there anything in this conversation relating to whether or not
Oswald was reporting information about potential assassination of the President.
JG: No.
G: OK. What else was said about Oswald and Hosty?
JG: Well, apparently ah, the reason that Hosty had talked with Gayton was the
fact that Gayton had bailed him out of a ticklish situation in Kansas City,
(cough) . . .
G: They were both agent -- FBI agents there together, weren't they?
JG: Right.
G: OK.
JG: Apparently Hosty had blown some sort of a cover for some sort of
surveillance and ah, I guess Hosty was being in a punishment situation, in Kansas
City, to begin with, and I guess more black marks against him had been a
problem. And apparently Gayton had covered up some indiscretion at the
stakeout of some sort. I really don't remember the details on [sic] it. Excuse me.
(Apparently someone called to him) Yes. (Voices)
G: Do you know the year that this conversation between Hosty and Gayton was
supposed to have taken place?
JG: No, no, I don't
G: OK.
[end of page seven of transcript]
8.
8.
JG: But, ah (cough) Gayton was ecstatic about the fact ah, something was wrong
with Oswald, and that ah, he was an informer at some level, some sort. But, he
wasn't talking, he wasn't giving information, he wasn't cooperating, and ah,
apparently ah, Hosty's mission, or one of the things that he had to do, was to try to
pressure Oswald into giving the information of talking information, but he wouldn't
do it.
G: Well, did Gayton indicate to you ah, the nature of the information or what
Hosty was trying to do to encourage Oswald to reveal the information?
JG: Not a bit, no. In fact, ah, I think, if I remember right, I asked the question,
well, do you know what he might have been informing about, and he said, well,
Hosty didn't tell me, and, ah, I left it at that. OK?
G: OK.
JG: He intrigued me about that of course, I felt that it was kind of interesting that
he would be talking to me about it. Ah, it seemed to me that as the conversation
was going along, he was getting more and more vented up that Hosty had been
wronged, somehow, by the Bureau, in the whole episode.
G: Well, did Ho-, did he reveal to you anything that Hosty had told him about the
assassination?
JG: No, no, he didn't. Not at that time.
G: Did he -- you had later conversations with him, did you?
JG: Yeah.
G: Did he reveal during that first conversation for what reason Hosty had been
moved to the Kansas City Office?
JG: Yes, he did say that ah, Hosty had opened his mouth somewhere along the
line and Hoover or, I guess they have some sort of an inspection bureau or
something, within the FBI, said, you known, that he did a transgression there in
handling the whole situation around the assassination situation, so they sent him
to Kansas City as part of a punitive situation.
G: During that first conversation, though, they didn't become more definite as to
what Hosty had done wrong.
JG: No, no.
G: OK. Was there anything else that went on during that first conversation?
[end of page eight of transcript]
9.
JG: Nothing other than the fact that he closed up the conversation by saying that
he was perfectly willing to rent the apartment, or actually it was a flat, to me, on
23rd St. and that he'd like to talk about it further. He had an interesting
conversation [sic]
G: All right. When's the next -- but you didn't become a tenant at that particular
point?
JG: No, it was about three weeks later that we moved in.
G: Was that -- would that have been after the first of the year?
JG: Right.
G: OK.
JG: But, see, I've got a -- I've got in my possession a -- a lease between Gayton
and myself.
G: All right.
JG: And, ah, I don't remember the exact dates but I remember it was right around
the first of the year, because I -- why I had to hold off was I got a student loan and
it hadn't come in yet.
G: All right. Can you furnish us with a copy of that lease?
JG: Sure.
G: OK. Now, when was the next contact that you had with Gayton?
JG: Next contact was probably about 3 or 4 weeks later, when he whetted my
appetite enough to start [sic] him some point blank questions, you know, about
the fact that while, OK, here you're saying that, OK, that Oswald indeed was some
sort of an informer and being paid for it.
G: Now, where did this conversation take place?
JG: At the University, I talked with Gayton on a phone on a number of occasions, I
didn't document a lot of them, OK?
G: Was he an administrator or, a teacher?
JG: Yeah, he was an administrator at the University of Washington.
[end of page nine of transcript]
10.
G: This is located in Seattle?
JG: Right, he was in the old main section.
G: Right, you're [sic] second conversation that you had with Gayton about this,
was there anyone else present?
JG: No.
G: Had you become a tenant by this time?
JG: Yes.
G: At the time that you actually formally became a tenant, did you have any
further conversation with Gayton, about the Kennedy [sic], or Hosty, or the
assassination, or Oswald?
JG: No.
G: So, the next time, then, was about when you saw him at the University?
JG: Right.
G: Would this have been sometime after the first of the year 1971?
JG: I think it was toward the latter part of January.
G: All right, and what did this conversation entail?
JG: Well, basically I went up there to tell him, you know, that I was in, and that I
really liked the place and everything, and we started talking again, and I guess at
that point, he showed me a picture of (cough) Bobby Kennedy, OK?
G: Mm-hmm.
JG: With Kennedy's signature on it. OK?
G: Right.
JG: And he gave me a description of how people were being prepared to go into
shake hands with Hoover, and he was among the first group of black agents, ok?
I think he graduated in '64 or something like that, out of the academy.
G: All right.
JG: And he would give me a description of that and then I think I broke in with ah,
hey -- you know, you were telling me that, you know, that Oswald was in fact
some level of informer for the FBI and I think at that point I did ask him what he
was supposed to have been informing about, and (cough) Gayton said -- I don't
know.
[end of page ten of transcript]
11.
G: This was in your conversation at the University.
JG: Right. He said -- I, I, don't really know, all I really know is that ah, he said all I
really know is that Jim Hosty had been trying to pressure or find the guy, and pin
him down to why he wasn't, you know, cooperating.
G: All right, what else went on in that conversation. Did you get any more details
at all?
JG: Well, he did say one thing that I thought was fairly interesting. Apparently
Oswald had some sort of an apartment in (cough) in ah, some suburb of Dallas.
G: In Irving.
JG: Yeah. Ok, and apparently Hosty just went over there one evening, and tried
to locate him. OK? And he banged on the door a couple of times and nobody
answered, or anything like that, so what he did was that he took a note out, --
now, Hosty told Gayton this, and Gayton was relating this back to me. OK?
G: Ok.
JG: And he said that he wrote a telephone number and Hosty's name on this
paper and put the paper under the door.
G: Who did this, Hosty?
JG: Hosty, right.
G: And he slipped that under, ah, Oswald's wife's door?
JG: No, ah, ah, the apartment I believe.
G: The one in Irving?
JG: Yeah.
G: OK.
JG: And, ah, I guess Oswals [sic] never responded to it.
G: All right.
JG: And I guess at that point, ah, Hosty got pretty angry and was going to . . . .
G: Is this what Gayton told you that Hosty had related to him?
JG: Yeah.
G: All right.
[end of page eleven of transcript]
12.
JG: And then, as the conversation went along, ah, he started to get away from
any real substantive kind of detail on anything, he just kept on saying that, well,
you know, the whole episode was just a big embarrassment for everyone.
G: OK.
JG: And, he said that, ah, ah, that it . . . .
G: Di [sic] he . . . . go ahead.
JG: OK. he [sic] kept on, in fact that word was used quite a bit, - [sic] the whole
episode was quite embarrassing.
G: Now, did he at any time, ah, tell you that Hosty had discussed with him, a
particular note or threat, that Oswald was supposed to have left with the FBI for
Hosty.
JG: No.
G: OK. Now, did you have anything else -- did you discuss anything else about
the assassination or about Oswald, at [sic] that particular conversation?
JG: No, in fact, ah, he had to go, there was a person came [sic] into the room that
said that, ah, he had to go to a meeting of some sort. And I remember it was, all
in all, about 20 minutes or so, that I talked with him.
G: When is [sic] the next time that you discussed with him anything about Hosty,
of Oswald, or the assassination?
JG: Well, I think it was probably about 2 or 3 weeks later. I really didn't, as a
matter of fact, I didn't really get into a situation, like, like, Sprague likes to think of
me as a researcher, OK? Not really. I was interested, but I also had a hell of a lot
of other concerns, I was sort of just simply, you know, ah, catch as catch can, if I
saw Gayton, I decided to talk with him. You know.
G: All right.
JG: And . . . .
G: Well, did you get into any further conversations with Gayton regarding Hosty,
and what Hosty had said?
JG: No, ah, not . . . . , [sic] now, let me see . . . . I talked with Gayton a lot, ok?
G: Mmm-hm.
[end of page twelve of transcript]
13.
JG: And about a lot of other things, other than just the assassination situation,
and I think that when it was brought up about Hosty, ah, Gayton sort of tailed away
from it, somewhat, so to speak, OK? after [sic] that, but he did emphasize the
point that Hosty was mistreated by the whole episode, he did emphasize the point
that Hosty was very, very, very, ah, sure and clear of the fact was some sort of
security informant.
G: Did he ever say to you that Hosty had started or represented that Oswald had
been giving information about a proposed assassination?
JG: No, no, I never heard any words like that, at all. Ah, one day, toward the end
of the time that we were at Gayton's place, which was about a year, ah, I went
over to his office and I wrote him a letter, ah, and in it I expressly said that I think
that the information that you have about this other thing, should be given to some
Congressman.
G: What did you have reference to?
JG: As to other things?
G: Yes. Were you referring to the fact that Oswald was supposed to be an
informant for the FBI?
JG: Yes, I listed, ah, somewhere along the line I've got a copy of that letter, ok?
G: Mmm-hm.
JG: Uh, in it I listed a number of points that he had raised with me over the year
that I knew him, and . . . .
G: Would you send us a copy of that letter that you sent to Gayton? Together
with the lease?
JG: That one might be rough to find, but I think I can duplicate enough of it, that
you know, he might still have it, ok?
G: You mean, now, this letter that you sent to Gayton?
JG: I hand delivered it to him.
G: Hand delivered a letter to Gayton.
JG: Right, in his office, and I, and I, intimated to him that my wife's relatives,
(clears throat) I have my wife's relative is a friend of Senator Proxmire, and that by
some means, you know that, what he should really do is, is tell what he knows,
you know, to an official person, you know, of some sort, and in it I, I went over the
fact that he had told me things that had to do with ah, Hosty, OK?
[end of page thirteen of transcript]
14.
G: The things that you have referred to me?
JG: Right.
G: Have been discussing with me?
JG: Right. Ah, things that had to do with certain situations at Seattle, and what
he supposedly knew about the King assassination.
G: OK. Did you have any further conversations after that with Gayton? -regarding
[sic] anything dealing with Oswald? Hosty? or [sic] the assassination?
JG: The only thing that I'm fairly clear about is the point in which we were -- ah --
one time I was down in the 23rd St. area, and I was hitch-hiking, and he picked
me up, and we were talking along the way, and he seemed to have -- ah -- he
intimated that, ah, you know, that -- ah, the Bureau thought of Kennedy as kind of
a play-boy nincompoop, a kind of person who was, ah, in fact, ah, incompetent,
ok? And that he probably deserved what he got. And he said that was what
some of the people in the Bureau thought.
G: Did he ever say that he thought that Hosty had made that statement?
JG: No, he didn't, but I the impression that thats [sic] what -- where it was coming
from, because in the next breath, he says, you know, poor old Hosty, he caught a
lot.
G: Did he explain that at all?
JG: No, He just, he, he ended up the conversation with the idea, you know, he
says, it was all a big embarrassment.
G: Was that the last time that you dealt with Gayton?
JG: Yeah, that's right.
G: When was the last time that you saw him?
JG: (sigh) Ooooh, [sic] I think it was just before we left, we left Seattle in March
of '72, and I think I caught a glimpse of him at the University and said "hi" to him,
and he went by.
G: All right. Now, when you gave your notes to Sen. Schweiker and the other
gentlemen who were in the room . . .
JG: Yeah.
G: . . . . did you discuss with him, ah, with them the things that you and I have
discussed now?
[end of page fourteen of transcript]
15.
JG: No, they concentrated on Moore.
G: Oh, they were speaking more about the Secret Service agent Moore, rather
than Hosty?
JG: Right.
G: Did your notes that you delivered to them -- and you're going to send us a copy
of those notes?
JG: Yes.
G: All right. Did they concern agent [sic] Hosty, the FBI agent?
JG: Ah, very briefly, I think toward the middle of the conversation I had with
Schweiker, very briefly they mentioned (cough) the Counsel, and I can't remember
his name -- mentioned that, well, he's also talked to a man by the name of Gayton
and he had told him that, ah, you know, that Hosty had this, and that, ok?
G: Now, the Counsel for the Schweiker Committee . . .
JG: Right.
G: . . . indicated to you that they, the Committee, had spoken with Gayton, about
Hosty?
JG: No, no, they didn't say that, no -- let me go back and tell you about that day,
ok? that [sic] I was in Washington.
G: All right.
JG: This was on the fourth and fifth of January in '76.
G: Go ahead.
JG: Ok [sic]. On the day that I arrived there, ok, they had me most of the
afternoon in conference, under oath, and all that. They -- the very next day, they
had Moore, ok, coming in, and what they were going to do is that if Moore had
denied that he had ever met me, they were going to spring me on him.
G: I see.
JG: And they had me waiting in a room adjacent to Moore, when they were
interviewing him.
G: This was after you had already testified.
JG: Right. Ok, now, when I was sitting in there, two other men came in the room,
and I remember their names, ok?
G: All right.
[end of page fifteen of transcript]
16.
JG: It [sic] was a short fellow, ah . . . .
G: Where was this room, here in Washington, D.C.?
JG: Right. It was right across the street from the Rayburn Bldg., it was a Hotel
[sic], old one.
G: Ok. Do you remember the name of it?
JG: Yeah, it would be on the -- ok, there's the Rayburn Bldg., and it faces, the
face that goes west, ok?
G: All right? [sic]
JG: It's [sic] right across the street, directly across the street, an old hotel.
G: All right. Let me ask you this. Do you, what year was this -- what year or
month, if you recall?
JG: That I was interviewed?
G: Yes.
JG: January, [sic] 1976.
G: All right. Go ahead then, with the occurrences.
JG: Ok, I was sitting in the room, there, waiting for them to spring me on Moore,
so to speak, and a little guy came in, small fellow, with glasses, ok?
G: Mm-hmmm.
JG: With an eastern accent. He introduced himself as a man that was
concerning himself with the King assassination. And that he had heard in
conversations that I had talked with a guy by the name of Carver Gayton. And I
said -- yes -- and I, he said, well, could you furnish us a little more information
about this guy, and I very briefly said that I knew him, I very briefly went into the
fact, you know, that I have a document that shows that I know him because I had
a, you know, a lease from the guy, signed by the guy, and that ah, you know, he'd
given me certain information and certain intimacies about, you know, how he felt
about the way the bureau [sic] handled things. The FBI.
G: All right.
JG: And the guy said he'd be very interested in talking with me over the phone
about it, ok? And I said -- sure, fine -- and then he left the room. And the guy
never got to me. Let's put it that way.
[end of page sixteen of transcript]
17.
G: Ok.
JG: And, ah, I don't know, he said he would like to -- I remember him saying that
he would like, he said ah, have you talked with Gayton in the last two years? You
know. And I said -- no.
G: All right.
JG: In fact, I haven't had any conversation . . . .
G: You don't know what the name of this individual was then?
JG: No, all I can do is give you a physical description.
G: Did he give you, show you credentials showing who he was with?
JG: No. He came in with that guy that, ah, he came in with a guy that was the
Counsel for Schweiker.
G: All right. OK. What is a brief physical description of the man?
JG: He is a short man, I would say that he is probably Jewish, I would say that he
was, ah, slightly balding . . .
G: What age?
JG: I would say, early forties. Late thirties. Ah, very intelligent guy, had good
command, ah, good communications skills.
G: Any facial hair, do you remember?
JG: No.
G: All right.
JG: He had glasses, dark rim.
G: Did you get the impression as to whether or not he was an attorney?
JG: Yes, he was an attorney.
G: All right.
JG: He identified himself as an attorney, and a counsel, and handling a certain
aspect of the King thing.
G: All right. Was he with the Schweiker Committee?
JG: (sigh) I believe he was, yes.
G: All right.
[end of page seventeen of transcript]
18.
G: Well, now, you've mentioned also the Secret Service agent Moore. Did that
have any connection to the Kennedy assassination?
JG: Yes.
G: What information do you have with respect to that?
JG: Let me ask you this. Ah, do you have access to Schweiker Committee files?
G: Well, limited amounts.
JG: Ok. Well, I, I heh, you know, . . . . [sic]
G: I can't answer that totally because that's not my area. So . . . .
JG: What I'm saying is that everything that I, that I would tell you is detailed, --
[sic] they, they, took copies of everything that I writ-, [sic] that I had, ah, given
them. Ok?
G: Mm-hmmm.
JG: They put them in a large, thick folio. OK?
G: Mn-hmmm. [sic]
JG: And they had three thick folios when I was there, they had one that had, ah, I
saw the name Elmer Moore and that was the thickest one, ok?
G: Yes.
JG: Then there was a very thin [sic] with me, then there was another name I
couldn't see that was about as thick as Moore's.
G: All right. Do you -- can you send copies to us of the information that you gave
them on Moore?
JG: Yeah, I, I, I, [sic] my own impression is that Moore is ten times more
important than Gayton, because it's . . . .
G: Can you give me a very brief indication of why, what areas that Moore had
anything to do with.
JG: OK. Moore was a Secret Service agent, assigned to the Dallas area on
November 22, '63. He's the only agent that wasn't there. He said he was in San
Francisco. He was in charge of the interrogation of the Doctors, [sic] he was in
charge of the Secret Service interrogation of Ruby, and he was liaison between
the staff of the Warren Commission and the Secret Service. I think he directly
reported to a man by the name of Kelly [sic], in the Secret Service. And Moore
gave me, he said two things that I think are important to me and caused a little bit
of stir when I
[end of page eighteen of transcript]
19.
mentioned them when I was at the thing with Schweiker. When I was, I went to
Moore's office one time, to talk to him, ok? and While [sic] I was there he got
pret- (end of tape)
G: Hello?
JG: Yeah.
G: Just let it go for a second here 'til we make sure we're recording.
JG: OK.
G: Let me just test it again to make sure. OK? Hold on a second.
G: OK, we're recording properly now, go ahead. You were telling me about
Moore now.
JG: Yeah, well, Moore said something -- he said ah, he said ah, to me in effect,
he said -- well, he said ah, I still think the little son-of-a-bitch, referring to Oswald,
did some shooting that day. And I said -- hey, wait a minute, you're telling me
that, you know, he did the shooting. He said, well, he said, all I know is this. He
said, we know he met with a subversive the day before the assassination.
G: Did he say what subversive?
JG: No, but when I mentioned that Schweiker, when I was talking with
Schweiker, Schweiker interrupted me and he said -- are you sure he didn't say
three days before? And I said -- no. Moore said that he thought that he saw, that
he met with this guy a day before the assassination.
G: All right.
JG: And, ah, as far as I know, I've heard any reference to Oswald meeting a
subversive anywhere. And I . . . .
G: What was your connection with Moore?
JG: Ah, he's a guy that I had called, ok? when [sic] I wanted to get some pictures
for an art project, and the guy held me on the line for a long time, he kept saying --
well, hey, you know, he says, I was intimately in-, [sic] he took the assumption,
ok, that I was some sort of a critic.
G: All right. Now, he was still with the Secret Service when you called?
JG: He still is.
G: Ok, still is.
[end of page nineteen of transcript]
20.
JG: But, ah, you know, he . . . .
G: His first name is what?
JG: Elmer.
G: Elmer Moore. Ok.
JG: And, ah, he -- when I first talked to him, ah, he, he, was you know, just
completely and totally ah, into the thing that I was trying to write him about the
whole Kennedy thing, and all I really wanted to do is get information where I can
get ahold of a photo. And ah, I call him now, he said, call me, you know, if you
have any questions, and so I did a couple of times, and he says, hey, why don't
you come on over to my office one day, we'll sit down and talk about it. I said --
fine. Heh. So I went over there, and I talked with him for about five hours,
and . . . .
G: Where is his office located?
JG: In Seattle, Washington. The Court House.
G: Ok.
JG: One the second floor.
G: Now, he had been attached to the Secret Service -- to the Dallas office? Of
the Secret Service?
JG: Right.
G: Ok. Now, what did your conversation with him pertain to?
JG: Ah, basically, him venting his anger at Kennedy, and ah, . . . . [sic]
G: What was his anger based on? Did he say?
JG: Well, he said he was a traitor.
G: He said Kennedy was a traitor?
JG: Yeah.
G: This is what Elmer Moore said?
JG: Right.
G: Now, why he say [sic] -- how did he explain that? What did he mean?
[end of page twenty of transcript]
21.
JG: Well, he prefaced it by saying that ah, well, he said, you know, no matter how
strange things get here, we've got it better than they do. But he was giving every
thing away to the. That's what he was saying.
G: He was saying Kennedy was giving things away?
JG: Yeah, to the Russians. Ok?
G: All right.
JG: And, ah, then he went on to say that ah, well, ah, one of the things that was
pretty impressive to me was the fact that when I was talking with him, he said that
ah, we had to do what we were told, in regards to, you know, the way the way
they were investigating the assassination, or we get our heads cut off.
G: Did he say who told, [sic] who gave them the orders?
JG: No.
G: Did he explain what he meant he meant [sic] by getting his head cut-off?
JG: No, but he certainly was shaking at that time, he was ah, he went from-, [sic]
ok, let me explain that when I talked to him it was on May -- trying to think -- it was
May, May 7 . . . .
G: What year?
JG: 1970, I believe. May 7, 1970, in the evening, I had come over there roughly
around 4:30 or so, and I stayed until about eight o'clock with him. And ah, as, as
the evening wore along, the guy got more and more -- fact is, he was scaring me.
He was giving, you know, his speech mannerisms were getting pretty violent. Ok?
G: Well, did you think it was odd that he was being this candid with you, a
complete stranger?
JG: Completely. Ah, I -- to tell you the truth, if I were to all put it down into words,
I'm very amazed by the whole series of events.
[end of page twenty-one of transcript]
22.
G: Well, he, this was at the Secret Service Office that you met him, right?
JG: Right.
G: Ok. Was there any one else present?
JG: No.
G: All right. What did he have to say about Kennedy? Or anything that indicates
to you that he may have knowledge -- ah, or may have done something wrong in
the investigation.
JG: Ok, what he told me was this, he said that he had badgered Doctor Perry into
changing his testimony, he did not feel good about that.
G: He -- being Moore?
JG: Yes, Moore talked to Perry and, I guess, really laid it on to the poor guy.
G: In what respect, what areas did he badger Perry with respect t [sic]
JG: Ah, what Perry had seen, as he was doing his emergency operation,
apparently.
G: Well, in what way's did he indicate to you that he had Perry distort the truth?
JG: In -- I think that what he was trying to say was him [sic] to making a flat
statement that there was no entry wound in the neck, or that where the position of
the wound in the back [sic], what Moore was telling me after he talked about that
was the fact that his study, and the study that went into talking with the Doctors
[sic], is that there was no conclusive evidence where any of the shots had come
from, at that point. Ok? If the report that he had written up . . . .
G: Now, this was on the day of the assassination, you mean?
JG: I don't know when it was, I don't, I don't know the date that it was. He
showed me a couple of papers . . . .
G: Well, did he, did he indicate to you in any way, or can you recollect as best
you can, the exact words or substance that he used with respect to what he did to
Perry?
JG: Apparently, well, he said that he had come back from San Francisco the day
after the assassination. He went to Washington first. From Washington, he got
some marching orders to go down and talk with the doctors at Parkland Hospital.
And ah . . . .
[end of page twenty-two of transcript]
23.
G: So, he didn't get to -- there 'til the 23rd, then.
JG: Something like that, I, I, I [sic] really wish I could remember clearly what he
had said on that, but I do know that he went to Washington, first, and then went to
-- he immediately went to talk with the doctors, and he talked to Perry, and
apparently he told me that there was one thing that he did during the whole thing
that he didn't have a very good feeling about, was, the way he put it, badgering
Perry. And ah . . . .
G: Did he explain to you what he meant by this Oswald meeting with the
subversive, the day before the assassination?
JG: No, other than when -- well, he gave the idea . . . .
G: 'Cause he was in San Francisco the day -- he, being the agent, Moores (sic)
[sic] . . . .
JG: Right. So he says.
G: So, how would he know what Oswald did the day before the assassination?
JG: Good question. When ok, when everything started to get heated was when I
asked him -- were you really in San Francisco that day, you know, then the guy
really blew up.
G: What did he say?
JG: He started shouting, he said, he came out with that phrase I told you about --
we were -- I did everything -- how'd he put is [sic] -- he says, ah -- I did everything I
was told, we all did everything we were told, or we'd get our heads cut off. You
better believe that, is the way he put it. Then he went in, launched into the thing
about -- right, immediately after that launched into the thing that ah, you know,
Kennedy was ah, you know, dealing the wrong way with the Russians, he felt that,
ah, you know, he had a traitor (teen) [sic] to him. (cough)
G: Was there anything else in your conversation with Moore that related to the
assassination, or anything that Moore did?
JG: Well, when he drove me home, he drove -- or offered to drive me home,
which was -- hnn [sic] -- at that point I was not in such good shape. I said, -- [sic]
ok, drive me home. And ah, as we were driving along, he said, you know, he
says, ah, I don't know, he says, maybe Oswald didn't act alone. He says, I guess
we'll never know, because he's dead. But he says, where was the money, we
were trying to find the money, and we couldn't find where the money came from.
G: Now, what money is he speaking of.
JG: Good question, I d--, I didn't follow up on it. Ah, I was,
[end of page twenty-three of transcript]
24.
JG: (cont.) you know, twenty-one, twenty-two, no, how old was I? I was about
twenty-three years old, I wasn't too -- heh -- I don't know how to put it, I, I, [sic] my
mind wasn't working as quick as it should have been, I should have followed up
everything that I had talked about, and I -- I've gone over this with my head a
number of times, but I do remember he saying something to the effect that -- well,
we couldn't find the money so we had to leave it alone, or something to that effect.
OK?
G: Did he say where he looked for the money?
JG: No. No, he said -- we couldn't find how, how, ah, he said -- we couldn't trace
the money . . .
G: But did he tell you what money he was referring to?
JG: No, but it sure came up in the conversation.
G: What was that?
JG: Well, I don't know. There wa -, [sic] there was something about a Marina
Oswald trust fund. I don't know what, how that came up, but I remember him
saying, he says, well we know there was a Marina Oswald trust fund. And, ah,
then he said something to the effect about, ah, well, we couldn't trace the money.
Now, Oswald and me have acted with others, and maybe there was a good
possibility he did, but he's dead now, was the way he put it.
G: I see. He didn't have any other substantive information?
JG: No.
G: Do you know what the results of the Schweiker Committee talking to him
was?
JG: No, they wouldn't, in fact they were, ah, the guy that I talked to, afterwards, I
said, well, what's you think of Moore? And he said, damn, I wish you had a tape
recorder when you were talking to the guy.
G: Hm. [sic]
JG: And he said, ah, something to the effect as I was leaving, he said, ah, I wish
you had had your shit together out there, you know?
G: Ok, uh, have you been contacted by anybody else, ah, any official agency,
since your testimony in front of the Schweiker Committee?
JG: No.
[end of page twenty-four of transcript]
25.
G: Ok, Jim, is there anything else ah, ah, that you, that you want to add at this
point in time?
JG: I don't know, I- It probably sounds quite senile and staccato the way that I've
been talking to you, but what I'm getting at is, very simply, is that my minds really
not together at all of the things that have happened, and if I had those notes in
front of me I think I could give you a clearer picture . . . .
G: All right.
JG: . . . . (double voice) with Moore, ah (cough Gayton, I think, is just simply a
guy venting, you know, a lot of frustration.
Would you take down my name and address, and get a copy of that lease and the
notes, and any other materials you have, and send it off to me, just as soon as
you can?
JG: Yeah.
G: All right. You got [sic] a pencil and paper?
JG: Mmm-hmmm.
G: My last name is Gilbert, G-i-l-b-e-r-t.
JG: Mhhh-hmmm.
G: My first name is Howard.
JG: Mhh-hmmm.
G: You send it to the Committee, Select Committee of Assassinations, House
Annex Bldg . . . .
JG: Hold on, House Annex?
G: Yeah. A-n-n-e-x.
JG: OK.
G: Bldg. #2. Washington, D.C.
JG: Zip?
G: 20515.
JG: OK.
G: All right. What do you do right now, Jim?
[end of page twenty-five of transcript]
26.
JG: I'm an employment counselor with a national employment agency.
G: All right. Do you have a college degree?
JG: Yes.
G: In what field, and from what University?
JG: Ah, I've got a BF- [sic] ah, MFA in Art, and that's ceramics major, from the
University of Washington, Seattle.
G: OK.
JG: (cough, cough)
G: Very good, ah, Jim, I appreciate talking to you, ah, soon as we get a transcript
on -- we're a little short on stenography ah, help, here . . . .
JG: Ha-ha.
G: . . . . so, it will be a little while before we get it to you.Its' now, ah, 4:02 in the
afternoon, on May 10, and would you please try and get those notes to us, ah, and
the lease, copy of the lease, just as soon as possible?
JG: Ok. When are you going to -- ah -- are you going to be talking with Gayton
pretty soon?
G: Pretty soon, and so I'd appreciate it if you could, ah, do you think you can get
those to us in the next day or so?
JG: Yeah, I'll get that out to you tonight.
G: Ok, I appreciate that, very much.
JG: With a hand written note that I think would be more helpful.
G: Yes, I'm sure they will help a lot.OK, very good, now, nice talking to you.
JG: Thank you.
G: All right, Bye-bye.
JG: Bye. (end of conversation)
[end of page twenty-six of transcript and end of document]
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