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Volume
XIV TESTIMONY
OF NANCY PERRIN RICH
The testimony of Nancy Perrin Rich was taken at 11 a.m., on June 2, 1964,
at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Messrs. Burt W. Griffin and
Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Nancy Perrin Rich.
Mrs. Rich, my name is Leon D. Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff
of the general counsel of the President's Commission on the Assassination of
President Kennedy.
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Under the provisions of the President's Executive Order No. 11130, dated
November 29, 1963, the joint resolution of Congress 137, and the rules of
procedure adopted by the President's Commission in conformance with that
Executive order and that resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn
deposition from you.
I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission's inquiry is
to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relevant to the assassination
of President Kennedy, and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.
In particular as to you, Mrs. Rich, the nature of the inquiry today is to
determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald, any participation in
that death, or the death of President Kennedy by Jack Ruby, certain particular
activities of Jack Ruby which you have heretofore told the FBI, and other
pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry.
Now, Mrs. Rich, I think you appear today here by virtue of a letter
written to you by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general counsel of the staff of the
President's Commission, is that right?
Mrs. RICH. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. And that--when did you receive that letter?
Mrs. RICH. I actually received in my hands the letter yesterday, Monday,
the 1st. I received notification of it via a telephone call from Mr. Fahety of
the FBI Bureau, It
was sent--and at this time I would like to state and opened by Mr. Rod Kennett,
of Executive Limited,
I want that in the record.
Mr. HUBERT. It is.
Mrs. RICH. I also want it in the record I came here of my own free will.
Also that I don't want it known and that I would like Kennett cautioned
to be quiet about this. I want someone to caution the Kennetts to keep quiet
about this. Rod opened the letter, and he has been tolling everybody in
Mr. HUBERT. Well, I am not in a position to pass upon your request. But I
am quite certain that the Commission will take it into account.
Mrs. RICH. I would appreciate it, because of some extracurricular work
that I do--it is not feasible for anyone to know that I go before any kind of
commission, for anything.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, let me get back to this. Under the rules adopted
by the Commission, you are entitled to a 3 day written notice prior to the
taking of this deposition. But the rules also provide that a witness may waive
the 3-day written notice if he so desires. And I ask you now if you wish to
waive the 3-day notice.
Mrs. RICH. Yes; I will waive it.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, will you stand, please, so I may administer the oath?
Raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to
give in this matter will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
truth?
Mrs. RICH. I do.
Mr. HUBERT. Will you please state your full name?
Mrs. RICH. Nancy Elaine Perrin Rich.
Mr. HUBERT. I understand that you recently married.
Mrs. RICH. That is correct.
Mr. HUBERT. What is your husband's name?
Mrs. RICH. Francis L. Rich.
Mr. HUBERT. Where do you reside?
Mrs. RICH.
Mr. HUBERT. When were you married?
Mrs. RICH. April 11, 1964.
Mr. HUBERT. Prior to that time, I think you had been married to a man by
the name of Perrin.
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Mrs. RICH. Robert L. Perrin.
Mr. HUBERT. And he died?
Mrs. RICH. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. When?
Mrs. RICH. August 29, 1962.
Mr. HUBERT. Where?
Mrs. RICH.
Mr. HUBERT. And you had been married prior to that time?
Mrs. RICH. Yes; I had.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the name of the husband you were married to prior to
the time you married Mr. Perrin?
Mrs. RICH. Husbands, in plural. Louis----
Mr. HUBERT. You mean there are more than one?
Mrs. RICH. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Give us the names.
Mrs. RICH. Louis Edward Musachio.
Mr. HUBERT. Before you pass away from him to the other husband, would you
tell us how your marriage was dissolved?
Mrs. RICH. By divorce.
Mr. HUBERT. Was he your first husband?
Mrs. RICH. He was my second.
Mr. HUBERT. Your second husband. And is he still alive?
Mrs. RICH. Yes; I gather.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know where he lives?
Mrs. RICH. No; I don't. The last known address was Lackland Air Force
Base. I believe he is retired out of the service since then.
Mr. HUBERT. What business was he in?
Mrs. RICH Air Force, a sergeant.
Mr. HUBERT. How long were you married to him?
Mrs. RICH. Married, I couldn't exactly say. I guess a year. I actually
lived with him about 9 months. Eight of those were spent on various--he spent in
various hospitals, including Walter Reed here, for operations, and in the
psychiatric locked ward.
Mr. HUBERT. When were you divorced from. him?
Mrs. RICH. Oh, dear. 1961, I believe.
Mr. HUBERT. Where?
Mrs. RICH. In the
Mr. HUBERT. Where were you married to him?
Mrs. RICH. I was married at L. G. Hanscomb Air Force Base,
Mr. HUBERT. What about your first husband?
Mrs. RICH. My first husband was Charles G. Wilson.
He was----
Mr. HUBERT. When did you marry him, and where?
Mrs. RICH. Well, I married him in
Mr. HUBERT. And how was that marriage dissolved?
Mrs. RICH. In divorce.
Mr. HUBERT. When and where?
Mrs. RICH. 1955, in
Mr. HUBERT. And how old are you, Ma'am?
Mrs. RICH. I am 27.
Mr. HUBERT. And what is your present occupation?
Mrs. RICH. Housewife.
Mr. HUBERT. You do not work for Executives Unlimited?
Mrs. RICH. Not any more.
Mr. HUBERT. You did work for them?
Mrs. RICH. I did.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you work for them?
Mrs. RICH. Oh, about 3 months.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you cease working for them?
Mrs. RICH. Upon my marriage.
Mr. HUBERT. Which is April 11?
Mrs. RICH. April 11.
Mr. HUBERT. What sort of business was that?
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Mrs. RICH. An employment agency.
Mr. HUBERT. Where is it located?
Mrs. RICH.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you any children?
Mrs. RICH. I have four.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you state their ages and tell us by which husband they
were born?
Mrs. RICE. I will start with my youngest. Diedre Pilar Perrin, age 4.
Mr. HUBERT. And she is the daughter of----
Mrs. RICH. Robert L. Perrin.
Mr. HUBERT. All right.
Mrs. RICH. Fellcia Helen Musachio, whereabouts unknown, by Louis Edward
Musachio.
Mr. HUBERT. How old is she?
Mrs. RICH. She would be 5.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, when you say whereabouts unknown, you mean you do not
know the whereabouts of the child or of her father?
Mrs. RICH. Both. She was, to quote the FBI, not kidnapped, childnapped.
Although I hold legal custody of her, I cannot find her.
Mr. HUBERT. All right. Will you go on to the others?
Mrs. RICH. Brian Russell Wilson, age 7, and Valerie Dawn Wilson, age 10,
both by Charles G. Wilson.
Mr. HUBERT. Where do these children live?
Mrs. RICH. The two
Mr. HUBERT. Your father and mother?
Mrs. RICH. That is correct. The whereabouts of Felicia is unknown.
And Deidre Perrin resides with me.
Mr. HUBERT. What is your present husband's occupation?
Mrs. RICH. He is the owner of North Quincy Taxi Co.
Mr. HUBERT. That is located----
Mrs. RICH. In
Mr. HUBERT. How long has he been so occupied?
Mrs. RICH. Oh, 20 years.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the occupation of Robert Perrin?
Mrs. RICH. Many things, from a master mechanic, on heavy equipment, cats,
et cetera, to a master foundry worker, patternmaker, moulder, to running a
foundry.
Mr. HUBERT. And other things?
Mrs. RICH. A writer, contracted by the old Street and Smith Co.
Mr. HUBERT. A writer?
Mrs. RICH. He is an author, short stories. Anything beyond that, I
couldn't tell you, because I don't know how much is true of what he told me of
his past.
Mr. HUBERT. What did he tell you of his past?
Mrs. RICE. May I ask a question?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes; if you wish.
Mrs. RICH. All of this is confidential?
Mr. HUBERT. I cannot give you the assurance that it is.
Mrs. RICH. Meaning this would not be publicized for the entire world, so
to speak. The average person outside of who it directly would be reported to.
Mr. HUBERT. I cannot give you the assurance that you ask for on that
point. If you would prefer not to answer the question, in the light of your
feelings about it, and the statement I have just rode to you, then we can pass
on to another point.
Mrs. RICH. Let me ask you this. Is it pertinent and important that you
know?
Mrs. HUBERT. Well, yes.
Mrs. RICH. Very well. Well, he claimed to----
Mr. HUBERT. Now, you understand, I am not giving you any assurance that
there will not be available to the public a transcript of this testimony.
Mrs. RICH. I understand this. I thoroughly understand this.
Mr. HUBERT. All right.
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Mrs. RICH. Well, he claimed to have worked for Jack Dragna, presently
residing at San Quentin.
Mr. HUBERT. That is to say he is in the penitentiary?
Mrs. RICH. That is correct.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know for what offense?
Mrs. RICH. Income tax evasion, I suppose. I don't know for sure.
Mr. HUBERT. All right.
Mrs. RICH. Let me state at this time that half of what I am about to
say--I am sorry--all of what I am about to say is hearsay. Half, I believe.
Mr. HUBERT. We understand that. You are telling us what he told you he
had done in the past, but that you don't know for sure whether it is true.
Mrs. RICH. That is correct. But I want that in the record. That he did
everything from handle Dragna's call girls to be a heavy, so to speak.
Mr. HUBERT. What do you mean by a heavy?
Mrs. RICH. Well, bodyguard.
Mr. HUBERT. Bodyguard for whom?
Mrs. RICH. Jack Dragna, and various subsequent members, shall we say, of
the organization that used to come into
Mr. HUBERT. What organization was that?
Mrs. RICH. Call it by what you will--syndicate, Mafia.
Mr. HUBERT. Who were some of the people involved?
Mrs. RICH. I could not tell you. I do know that he mentioned that he
personally knew Mickey Cohen and Virginia Hill.
Mr. HUBERT. You don't know any other names?
Mrs. RICH. Jimmy Gilreath.
Mr. HUBERT. Would G-i-l-r-e-a-t-h be about right?
Mrs. RICH. I would assume so.
Mr. HUBERT. So what you are telling us is that your former husband, now
deceased, Robert Perrin, had told you that among other things he acted as
bodyguard for certain members of a syndicate, as you call it, and you have
named, I think, four people who belonged to the syndicate.
Mrs. RICH. Supposedly, yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And what was the syndicate about, from what you learned from
your husband?
Mrs. RICH. Well, everything from prostitution to illegal gambling to
narcotics.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, all of this you know by hearsay alone?
Mrs. RICH. By hearsay alone.
Mr. HUBERT. I ask you that question because a moment ago you said that
half of what you said was hearsay.
Mrs. RICH. That is correct.
Mr. HUBERT. And I assume that the other half was not.
Mrs. RICH. I do know this, that he claimed that he ran guns--this was
years ago, when Franco was coming into power. I do know this to be a fact,
because he spent time in jail there.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did he spend time in jail?
Mrs. RICH. In
Mr. HUBERT. When you say you know that, I take it that you mean that he
told you so.
Mrs. RICH. No; I do not mean that, sir.
I mean I have seen written proof of this statement.
Mr. HUBERT. Such as what?
Mrs. RICH. Such as a prison record. Now, let me qualify that. I have seen
said statement on record, call it what you may. Now, how authentic it was, I
cannot swear to it.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean he showed you a prison record?
Mrs. RICH. I found it. From stuff in
Mr. HUBERT. What sort of a prison record was it?
Mrs. RICH. It wasn't as you would think of a prison record. It was merely
a piece of paper in Spanish with a list of articles on it that was on his person
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the time he was arrested. Another one was of a release signed by a Teniente
Enriquez, which would be a lieutenant here, at the
Mr. HUBERT. I think you better spell all that out, because you are using
a foreign language, and I am not sure that the reporter can get it except by the
sound.
Mrs. RICH. All right. To clarify this, it was written in Spanish. I will
quote it in English. "An article list, signed by Lieutenant Enriquez."
Mr. HUBERT. That is his last name?
Mrs. RICH. Yes; a release signed by someone in the Secret Service, which
is comparable to our detective system on a city police force.
Mr. HUBERT. It was a lease of what?
Mrs. RICH. A release.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you talk to him about these documents?
Mrs. RICH. He seemed quite proud of the fact.
Mr. HUBERT. I gather from that that you did talk to him about it?
Mrs. RICH. I did. Quite frankly, I asked him what in the heck it was all
about. At that time, he claimed, he said, "Well, you won't believe me. I
wasn't making it up." He claimed he ran guns and used to pilot a small
boat.
Mr. HUBERT. Ran guns where?
Mrs. RICH. Into
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the date of that document? Did it have any
date on it?
Mrs. RICH. I would say it was in the late thirties, I wouldn't be sure,
late thirties or early forties. It was either Just prior to him going into the
Mr. HUBERT. You think that it could not have been earlier than, say,
1935?
Mrs. RICH. No, it could not have.
Mr. HUBERT. Why are you sure of that?
Mrs. RICH. For the simple reason he was born in 1920. It couldn't have
been much prior to 1935. It was either late thirties or early forties. Again, I
would like to, for the record, state that my husband was a writer.
Mr. HUBERT. You are talking about Perrin now?
Mrs. RICH. Yes. And had a vivid imagination, as most writers do. Whether
or not these were authentic documents, I don't know.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he die a natural death?
Mrs. RICH. Suicide. The coroner's report was arsenic. I also would like
to state for the record at this time after my husband's death the Veterans'
Administration Hospital, I believe it is the one in Denver, that finally came up
with the report, came up with the report that my husband was discharged from the
service for hysteria, and had a history of mental disturbance.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you living with him at the time he died?
Mrs. RICH. I was.
Mr. HUBERT. You state to us now that the coroner's report in
Mrs. RICH. That is correct.
Mr. HUBERT. Showed that his death was caused by arsenic voluntarily
consumed, right?
Mrs. RICH. That is correct.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, you lived part of the time that you were married to
Perrin in
Mrs. RICH. Yes. Why I am hesitant--I would like to clarify that
statement. I went to
Mr. HUBERT. Where were you living when he left you?
Mrs. RICH. We were living in
Mr. HUBERT. What address?
Mrs. RICH.
Mr. HUBERT. How long after he left you did you seek him out in
Mrs. RICH. I was in
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Mr. HUBERT. What place did you call in
Mrs. RICH. I called the police department and a foundry he had mentioned
in a letter, and had read the name of a gentleman he had mentioned at this time
whose name eludes me--Youngblood--I take it back.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember his first name?
Mrs. RICH. No; I don't. But my husband claimed--and I couldn't ask him,
because if he was he couldn't have told me--claimed he was some sort of a
Government agent, which was in all probability true.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you contact Mr. Youngblood?
Mrs. RICH. Yes; he hadn't seen him. Then I proceeded to call
Mr. HUBERT. Did you actually contact the Dallas Police Department?
Mrs. RICH. Yes; I did.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you get any report from them?
Mrs. RICH. Except that he wasn't there. Or that they didn't know he was
there.
Mr. HUBERT. They did report that fact to you?
Mrs. RICH. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. How did they do so?
Mrs. RICH. By phone.
Mr. HUBERT. Go ahead.
Mrs. RICH. I then informed him that I would be there, which I did.
Subsequently, Mr. Perrin--and I will never understand----
Mr. HUBERT. How long after the events you have just told us about, to
wit, your coming home and finding that he wasn't there how long after those
events did you go to
Mrs. RICH. Approximately 1 week.
Mr. HUBERT. All right. When was that?
Mrs. RICH. Oh, gosh. That was in, I believe, May.
I can't give you the exact month. But I believe it was in May.
Mr. HUBERT. Of what year?
Mrs. RICH. Of 1961. Or was it 1962? '62. I am sorry--1962.
Mr. HUBERT. And how long--did you find Mr. Perrin?
Mrs. RICH. Again in a way. He wasn't in
Mr. HUBERT. Where was he?
Mrs. RICH. Well, afterwards, when he arrived in
Mr. HUBERT. In any case, when did you meet him in
Mrs. RICH. He wrote mother, found out where I was--and came to
Mr. HUBERT. Of 1962?
Mrs. RICH. That is correct.
Mr. HUBERT. So you had been there alone from May of 1962 until July of
1962?
Mrs. RICH. I am giving approximate dates, yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, when he did arrive, what happened?
Mrs. RICH. Just like nothing had happened. Everything was fine.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean there was a reconciliation between you?
Mrs. RICH. I loved my husband very much.
Mr. HUBERT. But, in any case, you proceeded to live together as husband
and wife?
Mrs. RICH. Oh, yes.
Mr. HUBERT. How much education have you had, Mrs. Rich?
Mrs. RICH. I have had 3 years of high school.
Mr. HUBERT. What high school?
Mrs. RICH.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you leave there?
Mrs. RICH. I left when I was 16. That would be in 1954 1953---I am sorry.
And I got married, and I go back, and I drop out because I am going to
have a child. Then after I have the child I go back, and I am doubling up on my
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and could have graduated. But I was too smart, and knew everything.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you had any other type of training?
Mrs. RICH. Depending on what you mean--formal education--meaning book
learning?
Mr. HUBERT. Well, yes.
Mrs. RICH. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Or other types of training, such as stenography?
Mrs. RICH. IBM, and police investigation.
Mr. HUBERT. What about the IBM aspect? Did you study that?
Mrs. RICH. I made a misquotation. It would be Remington Rand, actually.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you study?
Mrs. RICH. Not with Remington Rand as a company. For Craftsman Life and
Health Insurance Co. of Boston.
Mr. HUBERT. You worked there?
Mrs. RICH. I did.
Mr. HUBERT. And studied the operation of Remington Rand machines there?
Mrs. RICH. That is correct.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us the name of some of the people you worked
with there?
Mrs. RICH. Oh, you are going back too far, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Where was that place located?
Mrs. RICH. On
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the name of the manager?
Mrs. RICH. It may sound odd--whether this name has stuck in my mind or
not--but it seems to me his name is
Mr. HUBERT. How long were you
there?
Mrs. RICH. Oh, probably 6 months.
Mr. HUBERT. That was after you married?
Mrs. RICH. Oh, no. No--in fact, I was working there when I met Musachio.
That was back in 1958.
Mr. HUBERT. I see. You had divorced your first husband?
Mrs. RICH. That is correct.
Mr. HUBERT. I think you mentioned something else besides IBM.
Mrs. RICH. Police investigation.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, where did you learn that?
Mrs. RICH. From various police organizations, district attorney's
offices.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you name them, please?
Mrs. RICH. Yes; some with the Boston Police Department.
Mr. HUBERT. Who did you work with?
Mrs. RICH. We called him Papa McGill. Sergeant McGill, and John Dinatele,
I believe.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you work there?
Mrs. RICH. Well, I was a young kid, and didn't have any brains. I blew a
case, and that was it.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you paid?
Mrs. RICH. At that time; no.
Mr. HUBERT. Your answer suggests that at a later time you were paid.
Mrs. RICH. That is correct.
Mr. HUBERT. With the same department?
Mrs. RICH. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, with what police department?
Mrs. RICH. With the district attorney's office of
Mr. HUBERT.
Mrs. RICH. That is correct.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you work there?
Mrs. RICH. Well, this wasn't a question of working. I worked as needed,
or as a case came up. I Worked for Mr Oscar Kistle, Chief Deputy District
Attorney, who as of this January is now a judge.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you work with anybody else there?
Mrs. RICH. I worked with the Hayward Police Department, in
Mr. HUBERT. Who did you work with there?
Mrs. RICH. Lieutenant--I can't remember his name.
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Mr. HUBERT. How long did you work with that police department?
Mrs. RICH. Well, I left. That is why I discontinued my association with
them. Again, as needed.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, altogether, how long were you there?
Mrs. RICH. Altogether, if you want to put it running day by day, probably
3 weeks. If you want to say--actually I was associated with them probably 3 or 4
months.
Mr. HUBERT. That is what I meant.
Mrs. RICH. But not worked steadily.
Mr. HUBERT. I understand.
Mrs. RICH. And the Oakland Police Department.
Mr. HUBERT.
Mrs. RICH.
Mr. HUBERT. And who did you work with there?
Mrs. RICH. Oh, dear. I worked on grand theft. Lieutenant--I can't
remember---whoever the lieutenant is in charge of grand theft detail. Lt.
Parker.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you stay in
Mrs. RICH. Again, about the same length of time as
Mr. HUBERT. I don't think you mentioned
Mrs. RICH. The district attorney's office, yes, I have. At this time, if
necessary, I can introduce a letter into evidence verifying part of this
testimony.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, do you wish to do so?
Mrs. RICH. I believe I would.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, do you have the letter?
Mrs. RICH. I do. Note for the record I hand a letter to Mr. Hubert,
signed by Chief Deputy Kistle.
Mr. HUBERT. You have handed me this document. Do you wish--I assume you
wish to keep the original.
Mrs. RICH. That is the only one I have, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you mind if we had a copy made of it?
Mrs. RICH. I would not.
Mr. HUBERT. And then we can hand you back the original.
Mrs. RICH. That will be fine.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, when did you first meet Jack Ruby?
Mrs. RICH. When I first reached
Mr. HUBERT. What is his first name? Are you referring to the Tippit who
was shot on November 22d?
Mrs. RICH. I would say so. I believe it is the only Tippit on the police
force.
Mr. HUBERT. All right. So you met Mr. Tippit. And what happened then?
Mrs. RICH. I walked in and plunked $4 on the desk and said, "Here I
am." He said----
Mr. HUBERT. Well----
Mrs. RICH. This was a joke. When I called him from
He said, "Oh, no; I told you not to do it."
I had talked to him previously on the phone. So that was all right. So he
called in one of the patrolmen. And they get the Black Maria, go down to the bus
depot and get my bags. And I had called Associated Press. I have many friends
around the press world. Being in public relations, I would. And this Brice
someone or other said, "You can go and stay with my wife for a couple of
days until you get settled."
Three o'clock in the morning we start punching doorbells, with the
suitcases in a Black Maria, trying to find Ann, and I couldn't remember the last
name. So the next day they send up to pick me up and help me find a place and
job.
Mr. HUBERT. When you say "they----
Mrs. RICH. Meaning the police department of
Mr. HUBERT. What particular individuals?
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Mrs. RICH. I don't recall exactly who sent them up. I cannot remember the
guy's name. Really. I don't believe he is any longer with them, I understand.
Mr. HUBERT. In any case, some person from the police department came to
get you the next day?
Mrs. RICH. Yes. Subsequently, one Mr. Paul Rayburn, detective, juvenile,
came to pick me up, along with his partner, Detective House. Well, we managed to
find a place to live. And Paul suggested. he had a friend. And did I know
anything about bartending; well, I did.
Mr. HUBERT. What place did he find you to live in? Do you remember the
address?
Mrs. RICH. No; I don't. It was a rooming house. Actually, it was a
private home more or less cut into small apartments. I believe it was a
three-room apartment.
Mr. HUBERT. And how long did you live there?
Mrs. RICH. Here is where we are going to get into difficulty. I don't
remember. I cannot remember the length of time or addresses I lived at.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you live at more than one place prior to the time Mr.
Perrin joined you in July?
Mrs. RICH. Yes; I did.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember any of the addresses of the places where you
lived?
Mrs. RICH. Well, I remember I lived--when Mr. Perrin Joined me I was
living on
Mr. HUBERT. How many places do you suppose you lived in prior to the time
Mr. Perrin joined you?
Mrs. RICH. Two, I think.
Mr. HUBERT. One was on
Mrs. RICH. That was the one let's put it this way. Two including the one
I was living at when he joined me.
Mr. HUBERT. And one was on
Mrs. RICH. Yes. That was the big apartment building.
Mr. HUBERT. And the other was a rooming house?
Mrs. RICH. Well, I call it a rooming house. Perhaps I have named it
incorrectly. I would say a private home cut up into small apartments.
Mr. HUBERT. But you don't remember where that was?
Mrs. RICH. I cannot remember. I can remember the house. I would probably
know it if I see it. It is outside the city a little ways. It wasn't right in
the heart of downtown.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the name of the lady who owned the house?
Mrs. RICH. No; I don't.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, the other was an apartment building, you say.
Mrs. RICH. Yes. I believe now, put this as supposed--I believe it was
Mr. HUBERT. So that both places were on
Mrs. RICH. No, no. The one on Oak, I think, that was the address. I don't
recall what the first one was that Mr. Rayburn put me into.
Mr. HUBERT. Let's see if I get this straight. You lived in a boarding
house which was a house cut into small units, you say, and you don't know where
that was located.
Mrs. RICH. No; that is correct.
Mr. HUBERT. And how long did you stay there, do you suppose?
Mrs. RICH. Oh, maybe 3 or 4 weeks, 2 weeks, 3 weeks.
Mr. HUBERT. After which, as I understand, you then went to the larger
apartment house.
Mrs. RICH. Yes; on
Mr. HUBERT. And that was on
Mrs. RICH. Oak Street.
Mr. HUBERT. And you stayed there until Mr. Perrin joined you?
Mrs. RICH. Yes. And for a while after. Until we found a place comparable
but at less money.
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Mr. HUBERT. And where was that?
Mrs. RICH. That I don't remember.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you live there with Mr. Perrin?
Mrs. RICH. At the last address that I don't remember?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes; ma'am.
Mrs. RICH. Probably 3 or 4 months. I think we left
Mr. HUBERT. What year?
Mrs. RICH. Of 1962. Now, this is where I am getting confused. It had to
have been 1961. This is where I get confused. When I stated before that it was
May of 1962, it wasn't. It was May of 1961.
Mr. HUBERT. Why do you make that correction now?
Mrs. RICH. Well, it couldn't have possibly been in 1962.
Mr. HUBERT. Why?
Mrs. RICH. My husband died in August of 1962, in
Mr. HUBERT. You had been in
Mrs. RICH. Almost a year. Between
Mr. HUBERT. When did you leave
Mrs. RICH. It would be October of 1961.
Mr. HUBERT. That you left
Mrs. RICH. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And all of these previous dates, May and July, you now wish
to correct----
Mrs. RICH To 1961.
Mr. HUBERT. And you lived with Mr. Perrin after leaving
Mrs. RICH. 1961.
Mr. HUBERT. You lived in
Mrs. RICH. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And he died there?
Mrs. RICH. That is correct. You see, it was
Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, I had asked you when you had first met Jack Ruby,
and I think you were beginning to tell us when we got into the question of your
residences. So now will you tell us how you met Jack Ruby, and when?
Mrs. RICH. The when I could not tell you exactly. Some time during May or
June, I believe. Mr. Ruby's records could tell you, due to the fact that I
believe he probably took social security out. But the how was that Mr. Rayburn
took me up and got me the job up there. Detective Rayburn.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, how long after you had arrived in
Mrs. RICH. Again, the time element eludes me. It could be anywhere from 2
or 3 weeks to a month.
Mr. HUBERT. It is your thought that it might be that long after you
arrived in
Mrs. RICH. I don't know. A week, 2 weeks, 3 weeks. The last few years
time has become nothing for me.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, what was your occupation with Ruby, and where was
it?
Mrs. RICH. I was bartender at the Carousel Lounge, on Commercial--well,
the main street in
Mr. HUBERT. Commerce?
Mrs. RICH. Commerce.
Mr. HUBERT. What were some of the names of the other people who worked
with you at that time?
Mrs. RICH. Buddy King--I should say his professional name is Buddy
King--Robert J. Stewart. I am trying to think of the name of that MC. I have
been trying to think of it, and I cannot. Ray something or other, I believe.
They came and they went.
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Mr. HUBERT. How long were you employed by Ruby altogether?
Mrs. RICH. Probably a couple of months.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you work with Ruby after your husband joined you?
Mrs. RICH. Yes; I did.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you work until you left
Mrs. RICH. No; I did not.
Mr. HUBERT. How long before leaving
Mrs. RICH. Possibly a couple of months, 3 months. I wasn't in Dallas more
than maybe 5 months, 4 months at the most, 4 or 5 months at the most.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, when you say bartender, what do you mean? What were your
actual duties?
Mrs. RICH. I was actually a bartender.
I worked behind the bar mixing and serving drinks.
Mr. HUBERT. What sort of drinks?
Mrs. RICH. Whatever was allowed. Actually, you are not allowed to serve
mixed drinks there. We do to special customers. You are not allowed to serve
hard liquor. But I served beer, and wine, of course, and your setups.
Mr. HUBERT. What customers did you serve hard liquor to?
Mrs. RICH. Whomever I was told to.
Mr. HUBERT. You don't know their names?
Mrs. RICH. I couldn't quote you names, perhaps.
Mr. HUBERT. Who told you to serve them?
Mrs. RICH. Mr. Ruby. It was a standing order. For a particular group of
people. Then whenever he would come in and say, "This is private stock
stuff," that would mean for me to go where I knew the hard liquor was and
get it out, and get it ready for the people in his private office.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the particular group--who did it consist of?
Mrs. RICH. The police department.
Mr. HUBERT. Are you saying that Jack Ruby told you that when any member
of the police department came in, that there was a standing order that you could
serve them hard liquor?
Mrs. RICH. That is correct.
Mr. HUBERT. And are you also saying that you did so?
Mrs. RICH. I am saying that I needed a job and did so.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the names of any particular officers to whom
you served hard liquor?
Mrs. RICH. House, Rayburn----
Mr. HUBERT. Let's see if we can get some first names.
Mrs. RICH. I don't remember what House's first name was, but it was Paul
Rayburn, and Detective something House they were partners. They worked as a
team, juvenile. And the rest were just faces and uniforms.
Mr. HUBERT. How would you know them?
Mrs. RICH. At that time, I knew them.
Mr. HUBERT. You knew them to be police?
Mrs. RICH. Oh, yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did they pay?
Mrs. RICH. Oh, no; of course not.
Mr. HUBERT. Was that an order, too, from Mr. Ruby?
Mrs. RICH. That was. Unless they came in in the evening with their wives.
Then, of course, they paid. But then again, they didn't have hard liquor,
either, at that time. This is when they came in, by themselves, I was to go get
the private stock, as he called it, special stock.
They were served whatever they wanted on the house.
Mr. HUBERT. Was that widespread?
Mrs. RICH. I am not sure I understand what you mean by widespread.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, you have mentioned two names, and then said there were
others whose names you don't remember.
Mrs. RICH. Well, the only reason I remember House and Rayburn is because
they were personal friends of mine.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, how many others do you suppose you served?
Mrs. RICH. I couldn't estimate. I couldn't give you a true and accurate
figure. Anyone that came in from the police department. Including certain
attorneys in
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342 town.
One attorney I particularly remember was a fellow named Sy Victorson, who
subsequently became my attorney, and a personal friend.
Mr. HUBERT. And what?
Mrs. RICH. And a personal friend.
Mr. HUBERT. What was your salary there?
Mrs. RICH. I don't remember. $50, $60 a week, I guess.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any tips?
Mrs. RICH. Sometimes.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember a man by the name of Andy Armstrong or Andrew
Armstrong?
Mrs. RICH. The name Armstrong doesn't ring a bell. I guess, if my memory
serves me correctly--wasn't the colored man that cleaned up around there, Andy?
Mr. HUBERT. Is that the way you remember him?
Mrs. RICH. I wouldn't swear to it. I do know we had a colored man
cleaning up, but I would be darned if I remember his name.
Mr. HUBERT. You think it may have been Andy?
Mrs. RICH. I can't remember. I wouldn't even dare venture a guess.
In all honesty, I would have to say I can't really put a face to the
name.
Mr. HUBERT. But there was a colored man there?
Mrs. RICH. Yes; there was a colored man that cleaned up.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he stay on in the afternoon and at night?
Mrs. RICH. I don't remember.
Mr. HUBERT. What were your hours?
Mrs. RICH. I believe I would come in around 3, 4, 5 o'clock, I think,
sometimes I would come in at 6, or 7; I would work straight through to midnight.
Mr. HUBERT. Was this cleanup man present when you came in?
Mrs. RICH. If I came in the afternoon, yes, the colored man was there. As
I say, in all honesty, I could not dare venture a name on that.
Mr. HUBERT. But you don't remember any colored man who was there helping
at the bar in the night hours?
Mrs. RICH. You don't notice them. I mean they are there. If you have been
a bartender, you would know what I mean. You don't notice people like that. They
are taken for granted they are there, you have a bar helper. Heck, I don't
remember.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, what you are saying is that you do not remember that
there was any colored man who assisted with the bar at night.
Mrs. RICH. I will be darned if I can even put a face to whoever did bring
the bottles and stuff out to me, the cases.
Mr. HUBERT. Your answer to my question, then, is that you do not remember
that there was a colored man other than the cleaner that you mentioned.
Mrs. RICH. Well, he did everything. I do remember he lugged beer cases
out for me. I think if my memory is right---I think he stacked my cooler for me.
Mr. HUBERT. Would he leave before you?
Mrs. RICH. I don't really remember. As I say, these people you take for
granted, you don't pay any attention to them. I never gave it a second thought.
I had one thing on my mind, and it went against my grain. I was doing something
I knew to be illegal, and I knew I needed the job. Every night I expected a
raid. That was my prime concern.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you know a man by the name of Ralph Paul?
Mrs. RICH. Ralph Lee?
Mr. HUBERT. No; Ralph Paul.
Mrs. RICH. If he is the one I am thinking of, he was the manager at
Earl's Club.
Mr. HUBERT. Earl who?
Mrs. RICH. Earl's Club. I don't know what Earl's last name was. I forgot.
It is a private club in
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know a person by the name of Eva Grant?
Mrs. RICH. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Who was she?
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343
Mrs. RICH. Well, she managed Jack's other club; his sister managed the
Vegas Club.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever meet her?
Mrs. RICH. One time.
Mr. HUBERT. Where?
Mrs. RICH. She came in at the club there one time, was introduced as his
sister, and that she managed the Vegas Club, which I had never been out to.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any difficulty with Ruby?
Mrs. RICH. Except the fact I was about ready to throw a cash register on
his head, no.
Mr. HUBERT. What was that?
Mrs. RICH. I shouldn't have said that. I said except for the fact that I
was ready one night to throw a cash register on his head, no. I don't like to be
pushed around.
Mr. HUBERT. Are you suggesting that he did push you around?
Mrs. RICH. I am suggesting he threw me up against the bar and put a
bruise on my arm, and only because Bud King and one of the dancers there pulled
me off, I was going to kill him.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the argument about?
Mrs. RICH. The bar glasses were not clean enough to suit him. And I
wasn't pushing drinks to the customers fast enough.
Mr. HUBERT. And so he remonstrated with you?
Mrs. RICH. He did.
Mr. HUBERT. And that included pushing you around?
Mrs. RICH. That is correct. And I was refused the privilege of bringing
an assault and battery suit against him.
Mr. HUBERT. Who refused you that?
Mrs. RICH. The police department. I went down for information and was
going to Mr. Douglas--I believe he was--he is some attorney--I think he was--he
is with the DA's office. I don't remember his position. I can't remember his
last name. I wanted to file suit against Ruby. And I was refused. I was told if
I did that I would never win it, and get myself in more trouble than I bargained
for.
Mr. HUBERT. That was told to you by whom?
Mrs. RICH. By the Dallas Police Department.
Mr. HUBERT. But what individual of the Dallas Police Department?
Mrs. RICH. Again--and I wish to God I could--I can't remember his name.
There was a detective, plainclothesman.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you say that you had spoken to someone in the district
attorney's office?
Mrs. RICH. No; I said that is who I was going to go to. I wasn't advised.
I was flatly told not to.
Mr. HUBERT. And you did not go to anyone in the district attorney's
office?
Mrs. RICH. No; I did not.
Mr. HUBERT. Did that put an end to your employment with Ruby?
Mrs. RICH. No; I had already ceased with Ruby the night that that
happened. I walked out, and left him cold.
Mr. HUBERT. That is what I mean.
Mrs. RICH. That is correct.
Mr. HUBERT. After this altercation, you no longer worked for him?
Mrs. RICH. I did not. I was just biding my time until I found another
job, which I did find. This was on a Wednesday. I was going to give him notice
and leave him--I wasn't going to leave him over the weekend, but I was going to
start the other place the following Monday anyway. And this just hastened it.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you report that to your husband?
Mrs. RICH. I did.
Mr. HUBERT. He was employed in
Mrs. RICH. Yes; he was.
Mr. HUBERT. Where?
Mrs. RICH. At this time, I don't recall whether he was working for Paul
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344 Rayburn,
Detective Rayburn, at his used Car lot, or whether he was with Al's Automotive.
One of the two places.
Mr. HUBERT. What sort of a job did he have?
Mrs. RICH. Mechanic. Subsequently my husband went up and Jack Ruby threw
him out of the club. My husband was going to talk to him. And I found out about
it. Ruby had already kicked him out of the club. And then I disuaded him from
going back further. I said, "Forget it, just let it drop."
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any other employment in
Mrs. RICH. Yes, I did. At the--I think it was called just The Chalet.
Mr. HUBERT. Where was it located?
Mrs. RICH. Again I can't
remember. Again it was on the other
side of
Mr. HUBERT. What sort of work did you do there?
Mrs. RICH. This was a dining place. And I was a hostess. And in the place
they had this little booth, and they had a dart game, and you could throw darts
and win prizes, and I also ran that place for them.
Mr. HUBERT. Who was your employer there?
Mrs. RICH. Again, I cannot recall his name.
Mr. HUBERT. How long were you there?
Mrs. RICH. Until I left
Mr. HUBERT. How long were you unemployed--that is to say, what period was
there between the time you left Ruby and the time you got this employment at The
Chalet?
Mrs. RICH. Between the time I left Ruby and the time I went to The
Chalet, about 5 or 6 days. And then I quit The Chalet a little before we left.
And, of course, prior to going to Ruby's I wasn't employed. Then there was a
period of about a week, week and a-half, while I was at Ruby's, all of a sudden
he decided he didn't need a bartender. Then I am recalled back.
Mr. HUBERT. You left The Chalet about a week before you left
Mrs. RICH. Probably a little more than that. Maybe 2, 2 1/2 weeks.
Mr. HUBERT. Why did you leave The Chalet?
Mrs. RICH. Well, for one thing he was going to close down for
renovations. And then he said, "no, I am not; I am going to sell out."
And he decided to close it down anyway.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you work for a place called the Theater Lounge?
Mrs. RICH. Barney Weinstein--yes, I did.
Mr. HUBERT. When?
Mrs. RICH. That was during the time I had left Ruby and then went back to
Ruby.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you work for the Theater Lounge?
Mrs. RICH. No more than a week or two. I forgot all about working for
Barney. I have to laugh. His brother owned the other stripping place in town,
right next to Ruby, upstairs. And they had this amateur show, these amateur
strippers. Barney was going to promote me as a stripper. No thanks.
Mr. HUBERT. All right. Now, before we get into any other matter, I want
to go back to the letter that you handed me which was dated October 25, 1963. It
is addressed, "To Whom it May Concern:"
It purports to be signed by Oscar Kistle, chief deputy, district
attorney. It is on stationery of the office of the District Attorney of
Mrs. RICH. That is correct.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, I am marking the Xerox copy of that document for
identification by writing on the right-hand margin the following words; to wit:
"Washington, D.C., June 2, 1964, Exhibit No. 1, Deposition of Nancy Perrin
Rich," under which I have signed my name, and in order that the record may
show that there is no misunderstanding about it, I wonder if you would sign your
name as I 'have mine.
Mrs. RICH. Yes; I would. Note for the record that on the left-hand margin
I signed "Nancy E. Perrin Rich."
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Mr. HUBERT. I think the letter that you handed me was in an envelope,
which was plain, other than the fact that it had in the left-hand upper corner
the words "Office of District Attorney, Room 204, Courthouse, Sacramento
14, California" I am marking a Xerox copy of the original of that envelope,
which has been returned to you, for identification by writing on the Xerox copy
the following, to wit: "Washington, D.C., June 2, 1964, Exhibit 2,
Deposition of Nancy Perrin Rich," under which I have signed my name, and I
ask you to sign yours as you did with reference to Exhibit No. 1.
Mrs. RICH. Note for the record that I signed Nancy E. Perrin Rich under
Mr. Hubert's signature.
(The documents referred to were marked Nancy E. Perrin Rich Exhibits 1
and 2 for identification.)
Mr. HUBERT. Thank you, ma'am.
Mrs. RICH. At this time I would also, pertaining to my statement
concerning working for various police organizations, introduce into this
informal hearing, so to speak, another piece of material given to me by the
Oakland Police Department while working on a case for them, under the name of
Julie Anne Cody. Also under this name is a police record purposely devised by
the Oakland Police Department for obvious purposes, to coincide with this card
that I am about to hand to Mr. Hubert--also, how shall we say it--falsified,
made up by the Oakland Police Department, for obvious purposes. This was to get
me into a particular place---I had to have a police record--all done with the
sanction of the Oakland Police Department. May I also note that on that card the
dates and the names are fictitious, intentionally so. The card was in reality
printed in, I believe, November of 1963.
Mr. HUBERT. You say you want to introduce this card into this proceeding?
Mrs. RICH. Yes. And I will tell you why. If you note the date on that,
some of my statements--Let's say that this came into light, and I didn't give
the explanation of why and what this meant--the dates would conflict with some
of my testimony. And I want this understood that this was purely done to, shah
we say, consummate a case for the Oakland Police Department. I was not actually
in
Mr. HUBERT. When was this card issued to you?
Mrs. RICH. In reality, this card was issued in November of 1963. I ,was
working on a grand larceny case.
Mr. HUBERT. You want this card back, the original?
Mrs. RICH. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. All right. Now, as soon as we have a xerox copy made of the
card, we will identify it and sign the copies as we have done the other.
Meanwhile, let us pass on to another point. I think you have mentioned
that you saw Ruby at a certain meeting at which your husband was present and
there was a general discussion of guns or Cuban. refugees.
Mrs. RICH. Your statement is partially correct.
Mr. HUBERT. Will you tell us what is actually correct?
Mrs. RICH. At the first meeting there were four people present. There was
a colonel, or a light colonel, I forgot which. I also forget whether he was Air
Force or Army. It seems to me he was Army. And it seems to me he was regular
Army. There was my husband, Mr. Perrin, myself, and a fellow named Dave, and I
don't remember his last name. Dave C.--I think it was Cole, but I wouldn't be
sure.
Dave came to my husband with a proposition.
Mr. HUBERT. There were only four people present?
Mrs. RICH. Let me clarify the statement about Dave. He was a bartender
for the University Club on
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346
Mr. HUBERT. Do I understand from that that you and your husband were to
receive $10,000 for your services?
Mrs. RICH. Well, I was incidental.
Mr. HUBERT. No; I would like
to know.
Mrs. RICH. I say I was incidental. My husband was.
Mr. HUBERT. Your husband was to receive $10,000?
Mrs. RICH. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Who told him so?
Mrs. RICH. The colonel.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did this meeting take place?
Mrs. RICH. In
Mr. HUBERT. Would you describe it for us, please?
Mrs. RICH. Yes; it was sitting--if I may do it in diagram.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what section of the city it was?
Mrs. RICH. No; this I don't. You come along--let's say this is your main
street, that the apartment building set on. We have an apartment building, not
setting facing the street, but with the side towards the street. A hill slopes
up. There is a path that kind of winds around. There are flowers and gardens
here; and in them I believe there is a little fountain--and in them was
lights--illuminating the gardens; and you have to come up a little hill, and
walk around--I am not sure whether there was a gravel path or not, or whether it
is flagstone and into the building here. And
it was a double deck, I believe perhaps a triple.
Mr. HUBERT. Apartment house?
Mrs. RICH. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. How many apartments, roughly speaking?
Mrs. RICH. I could not say how many. The standard apartment building for
Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, at this point let us do this: You have handed us
the card that you referred to in your testimony previously. We have now had a
Xerox copy made of it. I am handing you back the original. For the purpose of
identification, I am marking the Xerox copy, front and back, as follows, to wit:
"
Mrs. RICH. Note for the record that I signed Nancy E. Perrin Rich under
Mr. Hubert's name on Exhibit No. 3. Will you note for the record that I signed
Nancy E. Perrin Rich under Mr. Hubert's name on Exhibit No. 3-A.
(The documents referred to were marked Nancy Perrin Rich Exhibits Nos. 3
and 3-A for identification.)
Mr. HUBERT. Now, a moment ago you were testifying concerning an apartment
house at which you and your husband met a colonel and another man by the name of
Dave C, I think you said.
Mrs. RICH. Yes; that is an initial--C. Dave took us there.
Mr. HUBERT. I am going to mark that document for the purpose of
identification "
Mrs. RICH. I didn't mean for this to be an exhibit. Will you note for the
record that I signed Nancy E. Perrin Rich under Mr. Hubert's name on Exhibit No.
4. Also note for the record the writing I am doing after signing is merely
designating what the lines mean.
(The document referred to was marked Nancy Perrin Rich Exhibit No. 4 for
identification.)
Mr. HUBERT. Am I correct in stating that prior to the writing you have
just put on the document, Exhibit No. 4, there were merely lines which indicated
a street and an apartment and a little path, showing a garden. And that since
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347 the
document has been identified, you have written in all that appears in
handwriting?
Mrs. RICH. That is correct.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember on what floor this apartment was that you
visited?
Mrs. RICH. I believe the first.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember whether it was to the left or the right as
you went in?
Mrs. RICH. There was no question of left or right as such. It was--you
just walked in. There was no hallway to indicate left or right, if that is what
you are referring to.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, this apartment actually opened on the path?
Mrs. RICH. That is correct.
Mr. HUBERT. How many rooms did it have?
Mrs. RICH. I don't recall whether it was a one or two bedroom.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you give us any other description of the apartment
building, first of all?
Mrs. RICH. The apartment itself wasn't too well furnished.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it a brick apartment?
Mrs. RICH. I believe it was. Either brick or stucco.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know the color of it?
Mrs. RICH. I don't. But I believe it had colored doors. Now, I could be
mistaken.
Mr. HUBERT. And the apartment itself was one or two bedrooms, and I think
you say it was not well furnished. Do you recall anything about the interior of
the apartment that would be significant?
Mrs. RICH. Let me clarify that. When I say not well furnished, I should
have said sparsely furnished. It looked like an unfurnished apartment that he
had just thrown some furniture into and not too much of it. I believe I remember
he said something about he just moved in; hadn't finished it.
Mr. HUBERT. Did it have lamps in it?
Mrs. RICH. I believe it did. I think it had one lamp on the table.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall anything about the furniture that was there?
Mrs. RICH. Yes; it was, I believe you call it Danish modern.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it upholstered?
Mrs. RICH. I don't recall. It was typical cheap apartment furniture. I
believe it had plastic upholstery.
Mr. HUBERT. I think you said you went there at night.
Mrs. RICH. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. About what time?
Mrs. RICH. It was after dark. Probably 9 o'clock.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall how long it took you to drive from where you
were living to this place?
Mrs. RICH. No; I do not.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you get there?
Mrs. RICH. In Dave's car. Now, again, I said four people present. I
should have counted--he had a girl with him. She wasn't in it or anything, just
some girl he had along for the evening. She war never part of it. In fact, I
think she stayed in the car.
Mr. HUBERT. How long were you in the place?
Mrs. RICH. Oh, probably half an hour, 45 minutes, an hour at the most.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the general discussion?
Mrs. RICH. Feeling each other out. I just kind of sat there and listened.
The general gist of it was we were going to obtain a boat, the colonel could
obtain various things, and nothing specific was mentioned on what the various
things were at that time. And we were going to go and pick up--they were
deciding where to pick them up-pick up Cuban refugees, and bring them over to
the main coast, meaning Miami, which, quite frankly, I adhered to because at
that time, as I say, Castro is or was what we suppose him to be today, and quite
frankly I had seen underprivileged countries and at that time thought it was a
good idea.
Mr. HUBERT. Was the sum of $10,000 mentioned at that meeting?
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Mrs. RICH. Yes; it was.
Mr. HUBERT. Who mentioned it?
Mrs. RICH. The colonel. And it seemed awfully exorbitant for something
like this. I smelled a fish, to quote a maxim.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean you thought that there was too much money involved
for this sort of operation?
Mrs. RICH. Yes; I did.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn't express that view, of course?
Mrs. RICH. No; I didn't say anything. I just kept quiet.
Mr. HUBERT. How were matters left at the end of that meeting?
Mrs. RICH. That there were more people involved, and that we were to
attend a meeting at some later date, of which we would be advised.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you advised?
Mrs. RICH. We were.
Mr. HUBERT. Did another meeting take place?
Mrs. RICH. Yes; it did.
Mr. HUBERT. How long after the first?
Mrs. RICH. Oh, probably 5 or 6 days, give or take a day or 2.
Mr. HUBERT. At the same place?
Mrs. RICH. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it at night?
Mrs. RICH. It was.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you get there then?
Mrs. RICH. We went in our own car, but with Dave with us.
At that time, Dave and my husband and I were in our car.
Mr. HUBERT. All right. Tell us what happened.
Mrs. RICH. Well, we got there and at that time there was the colonel and
another middle-aged woman, kind of a real old granite face I would describe her,
steel-gray hair. Looked rather mannish. And there was a rather----
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know her name?
Mrs. RICH. No; I was introduced. Names were mentioned around. I don't
recall it. And then there was another rather pugnacious-looking fellow, who
looked at though he might have been an ex-prizefighter.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you introduced to him?
Mrs. RICH. I was introduced to everyone.
Mr. HUBERT. Who else was there?
Mrs. RICH. The colonel, the woman, and the prizefighter type, a couple of
other men that just kind of sat off in the corner. One of them looked rather
dark, like he might have been Cuban or Latin American, and Dave, my husband, and
myself.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us what happened at that meeting.
Mrs. RICH. Well, apparently from what I could discern, they had some kind
of a hitch in their plans. And at that time I point blank spoke up and said,
"Well, suppose we discuss the plans in full before we"--meaning my
husband and myself--"get into this. I would like to know what we are
getting into. And at this point you know by now I certainly have a say in this
matter." Then it came out-- boom---quite blank. We were going to bring
Cuban refugees out---but we were going to run military supplies and
Mr. HUBERT. Who made that statement?
Mrs. RICH. I believe it was the Latin-looking fellow that first made the
statement. But the colonel clarified it. The colonel seemed to be the head of it
and seemed to do all the talking.
Mr. HUBERT. He was in uniform?
Mrs. RICH. Yes; he was.
Mr. HUBERT. Could you describe what the colonel looked like?
Mrs. RICH. Vaguely. I would say approximately 45 to 50, perhaps a little
younger. He was kind of bald, and that may have made him look older. As I
recall, a rather slightly built man--and I would not swear to it.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he have any other characteristics?
Mrs. RICH. Not that I can recall, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Was he in summer uniform?
Mrs. RICK. Yes; he was.
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Mr. HUBERT. Short sleeves?
Mrs. RICH. If my memory serves me; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you whom he was representing in the matter?
Mrs. RICH. Not exactly. That fact never did come clear to me. A group of
people.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, did he indicate in anyway that he was acting
officially, in his official capacity?
Mrs. RICH. No; he was not acting officially.
Mr. HUBERT. How do you know that?
Mrs. RICH. Because of certain statements that were made statements such
as that the guns would have to come in via
Mr. HUBERT. He was also in uniform on the first occasion?
Mrs. RICH. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. The same type of uniform?
Mrs. RICH. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You say you never saw him out of uniform? All of the times
you saw him he was in uniform?
Mrs. RICH. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Summer uniform?
Mrs. RICH. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. So at that meeting it came out that the project had two
purposes. One was to bring arms in, and the other was to take refuges out.
Mrs. RICH. Yes; to make money both ways. Then it became crystal clear why
so much money was to be paid for the pilot of the boat.
Mr. HUBERT. And how was that meeting left?
Mrs. RICH. Well, at that time when he said that, my first thought was
"
Mr. HUBERT. That was at the second meeting?
Mrs. RICH. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, what facts
occurred to give you the impression that there was a hitch with respect to
money?
Mrs. RICH. Oh, just that they were talking about, well, first of all when
I say we a group of people were supposed to go to Mexico to make the arrangement
for rifles but "Well, no, you can't leave tomorrow"--they dropped it.
And just evasive statements that led me to believe that perhaps they were
lacking in funds.
And then Ruby comes in, and everybody looks like this, you know, a big
smile like here comes the Saviour, or something. And he took one look at me, I
took one look at him, and we glared, we never spoke a word. I don't know if you
have ever met the man. But he has this nervous air about him. And he seemed
overly nervous that night. He bustled on in. The colonel rushed out into the
kitchen or bedroom, I am not sure which. Ruby had--and he always did carry a
gun--and I noticed a rather extensive bulge in his--about where his breast
pocket would be. But at that time I thought it was a shoulder holster, which he
was in the habit of carrying.
Mr. HUBERT. He was in the habit of carrying?
Mrs. RICH. Yes. Either a shoulder holster or a gun stuck in his pocket. I
always had a gun behind the bar. That is normal.
Mr. HUBERT. You had seen it at his shoulder?
Mrs. RICH. Yes; which was normal--because he made the bank deposit. I
made the bank deposit a couple of times for him and carried a gun when I made
it.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he show any signs of recognition of you?
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Mrs. RICH. Yes; he glared at me and I glared back, as much as to say to
each other what the beck are you doing here.
Mr. HUBERT. Had you told the colonel and Dave what your name was prior to
that?
Mrs. RICH. At that time we I think it will be obvious to you gentlemen
the reason--we were going under Jack Start and Nancy Starr.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you mean that is the name that Ruby knew you under?
Mrs. RICH. No. Jack Ruby knew me as Nancy Perrin.
Mr. HUBERT. And he knew your husband was Robert Perrin?
Mrs. RICH. Yes. But like I
say for obvious reasons we used the name Jack and Nancy Starr.
Mr. HUBERT. That is to say, you told the colonel and Dave that your
name----
Mrs. RICH. No; Dave knew our real name.
Mr. HUBERT. The colonel----
Mrs. RICH. The colonel and everyone else involved, with the exception of
Ruby and Dave.
Mr. HUBERT. They knew you as Nancy Start?
Mrs. RICH. Yes. Also let me state that my husbands' nom de plume as a
writer was Jack Starr. I have also published under Nancy Starr.
Mr. HUBERT. All right. What happened?
Mrs. RICH. Well, they went in and came out and the bulge was gone, and
everybody was really happy, and all of a sudden they seemed to be happy. So it
was my impression Ruby brought money in.
Mr. HUBERT. They walked out of the apartment?
Mrs. RICH. Ruby left. He didn't stay. He wasn't there for more than 15
minutes at the most.
Mr. HUBERT. You say all of a sudden the bulge was gone?
Mrs. RICH. The bulge was gone from Ruby when he left.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he leave the room?
Mrs. RICH. He left the apartment.
Mr. HUBERT. I mean from the time he came in until he left.
Mrs. RICH. He came in. To everyone else except my husband and I he said,
"Hi." He and the colonel rushed into--I forget whether it was the
kitchen or the bedroom. They were in there about 10 minutes. I heard some rather
loud undistinguishable words. They closed the door. When they came out everybody
looked relieved. And Ruby just walked out.
Mr. HUBERT. And said nothing to you?
Mrs. RICH. No.
Mr. HUBERT. You say the money was forthcoming?
Mrs. RICH. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you get it?
Mrs. RICH. No; we didn't. First they had to pay for this
pugnacious-looking fellow and one of the Latins who were going down to
Mr. HUBERT. You did not see Jack Ruby hand any money to anybody?
Mrs. RICH. No; I did not.
Mr. HUBERT. Nor did you see any money handed to anyone else?
Mrs. RICH. No; I did not.
Mr. HUBERT. So the way it was left then, these people, the others, were
going to go to
Mrs. RICH. Actually they were going to leave not the day following, but
the day after that--2 days later they were going to leave for
Mr. HUBERT. Did they say they did not have the finances, or was it your
assumption that they did not?
Mrs. RICH. When someone is stalling around, and not setting a concrete
date and saying, "Well, we have to wait" and that it will get here
soon, and statements like that that I hear in conversation, then all of a sudden
in comes a man with a bulge and hands it to the colonel in. the back room, so to
speak, and all of
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351 a
sudden, boom, the reservations are made then and there, I think that is a pretty
good assumption.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, those are the facts that you observed upon
which you base the assumptions that you have made.
Mrs. RICH. That is correct. And the big sigh of relief, so to speak,
afterwards.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, did you then ask about your portion of the money?
Mrs. RICH. At that time it was to be decided, as I say, among the
bigwigs. I had asked for $25,000.
Mr. HUBERT. Was that before Ruby came in?
Mrs. RICH. Yes; in fact it was just a few minutes before he knocked on
the door. They decided they did not know, and they were going to have a
meeting--- there were some other people involved higher up than they were. They
would have to talk it over with them. At that time I had it in my mind I would
go ahead and play ball--and I was stalling when I asked for the $25,000--that I
would notify the Federal authorities. As I say, bringing the refugees out is one
thing. Running in guns is another thing, for a Communist country which at that
time it was.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did that meeting last?
Mrs. RICH. They were still going when we left.
And we were there about 2 1/2 hours.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean you and your husband?
Mrs. RICH. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Dave remained behind?
Mrs. RICH. He remained. Well, actually at that point business was over,
and it just became a party. Neither my husband nor I drink, so we left.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you leave it with them? Who was going to make the
next move?
Mrs. RICH. We were to be notified as to the time and place of the next
meeting and as to the decision on upping the ante, so to speak.
Mr. HUBERT. They did not reject your offer of $25,000?
Mrs. RICH. It was to be discussed.
Mr. HUBERT. $10,000 was all right.
Mrs. RICH. Yes; $10,000 was offered.
Mr. HUBERT. $25,000, which was your counter offer, had to be discussed.
Mrs. RICH. That's correct.
Mr. HUBERT. And they told you they would discuss that and let you know.
Mrs. RICH. With some other people that were higher up.
Mr. HUBERT. They told you they were higher up?
Mrs. RICH. Yes; the colonel said that they were higher up. I do not know
the exact words.
Mr. HUBERT. What happened then?
Mrs. RICH. I think his exact words were something like "I will
discuss it with my bosses."
Mr. HUBERT. What happened after that?
Mrs. RICH. Well, about 3 or 4 days later we were told there was going to
be another meeting to attend. Dave came over and told us. And we went. And----
Mr. HUBERT. What happened at that meeting? First of all, who was there?
How did you go?
Mrs. RICH. My husband and I.
Mr. HUBERT. You went in your car?
Mrs. RICH. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What kind of a car did you have?
Mrs. RICH. At that time I believe we had a 1956 blue and white Ford, if I
am not mistaken.
Mr. HUBERT. What license plate?
Mrs. RICH.
Mr. HUBERT. Under the name of Perrin?
Mrs. RICH. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. All right. So you went with your husband. This was the third
visit. Same place?
Mrs. RICH. Same place.
Mr. HUBERT. Same apartment?
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Mrs. RICH. That is correct.
Mr. HUBERT. No change in the furniture or decorations or anything of that
sort?
Mrs. RICH. Not that I recall. I did not really notice.
Mr. HUBERT. And this third meeting was about 4 or 5 days after the first?
Mrs. RICH. Three or four; after the second.
Mr. HUBERT. How were you notified to come to the first meeting?
Mrs. RICH. To come to the first meeting?
Mr. HUBERT. No; the third.
Mrs. RICH. Dave.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, Dave was the man who was in between, as it
were.
Mrs. RICH. Well, Dave was in it. It was only because he was our friend.
Mr. HUBERT. Was he to get anything out of it?
Mrs. RICH. I don't know; never did.
Mr. HUBERT. Didn't you discuss that with him?
Mrs. RICH. In that sort of business, you don't discuss things,
apparently.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, you did.
Mrs. RICH. Well, not to that point. It wouldn't have done me any good. I
would have just gotten a "none of your business" answer.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn't know that to be a fact, did you?
Mrs. RICH. Yes; I did.
Mr. HUBERT. Why?
Mrs. RICH. Well, call it intuition. I don't know. I just wouldn't have
gotten an answer.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you think that Dave expected some money?
Mrs. RICH. I suppose so. I never did get his position quite clear in my
mind.
Mr. HUBERT. He was the one that had brought you into the picture in the
first place.
Mrs. RICH. Yes. It seemed to me like a front man for them, or something,
or a recruiter almost.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, you were concerned about the question of money involved
in this thing, because as you said you let them know that you would have a say
about this.
Mrs. RICH. That's right.
Mr. HUBERT. But you did not discuss with Dave whether he was to be paid
by you or the other side, as it were.
Mrs. RICH. Oh, no; he wasn't to be paid by us. He brought us into the
group, so to speak. The only thing I could make him out to be is a recruiter.
Not to be paid by us. Nothing was ever mentioned of Dave going on any of these
trips.
Mr. HUBERT. But he was not to get a fee for finding you.
Mrs. RICH. I don't know. I really don't.
Mr. HUBERT. And you did not raise the point with him.
Mrs. RICH. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Nor did your husband, to your knowledge.
Mrs. RICH. I don't know. I didn't ask him.
Mr. HUBERT. Did it concern you that Dave might want some of the money
that you were going to get?
Mrs. RICH. Not particularly, because at that time I had already made up
my mind to go to the authorities with it.
Mr. HUBERT. You had made up your mind when?
Mrs. RICH. After the second meeting, I found out they were going to run
rifles in, and military supplies and things that apparently--again apparently
were being pilfered from a base somewhere.
Mr. HUBERT. You made up your mind at the end really of the second
meeting.
Mrs. RICH. Yes; and then they said to run rifles and stolen military
supplies in--that was it.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you tell your husband so?
Mrs. RICH. I did.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you tell Dave so?
Mrs. RICH. I did not.
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Mr. HUBERT. Did you go to the authorities?
Mrs. RICH. I never had the chance.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us why?
Mrs. RICH. Well, we went back to that third meeting and apparently by
mutual consent we got out of it.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us what happened at the third meeting, including who was
there.
Mrs. RICH. Well, who was there--there was the colonel, again this
pugnacious-looking fellow who supposedly had gone to
Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever been able to do so?
Mrs. RICH. Yes; I have.
Mr. HUBERT. Who was it?
Mrs. RICH. Again, unless I am awfully mistaken, and I have yet to be able
to find a picture of this man, but I recall seeing a picture and I know why I
had associated him--of his father.
Mr. HUBERT. Whose father?
Mrs. RICH. This particular man. Now, again, what I am about to say is not
fact. It is something that I have never quite been able to get clear in my mind
and never will, until I can find a picture. Unless I am very mistaken, the man
at that third meeting was Vito Genovese's son.
Mr. HUBERT. He was not introduced as such?
Mrs. RICH. He was introduced as Tony. That was all.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know Vito Genovese?
Mrs. RICH. No; I never did.
Mr. HUBERT. But you knew his picture.
Mrs. RICH. I had seen his picture.
Mr. HUBERT. You thought there was a resemblance between that picture and
this man?
Mrs. RICH. Yes. For a week this bothered me.
And all of a sudden it came crystal clear.
Mr. HUBERT. What became clear?
Mrs. RICH. That unless I was way off base, that is who it was.
And I do know that a lot of people----
Mr. HUBERT. It was a week after the third meeting?
Mrs. RICH. Yes. I had been trying to put a name to that face.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, what else happened at the third meeting?
Mrs. RICH. Well, No. 1, the raise of ante was turned down. The colonel
asked us if we would accept $15,000. My husband started to say something. I
hushed him up and said "No." I said, "I don't know. I want some
time to think about it." So then the phone rang, and quite a lengthy
conversation took place in the other room. I could not swear to who was on the
other end of the phone, I have a pretty good idea. And the colonel came back out
and said, "I don't know. We are
going to call this off for a while anyway. There has just been a change of
plans. We are going to have to postpone this for 3 or 4 months. There will be
one more meeting." And at that time I stood up and I said, "Look,
quite frankly I don't believe we want any part of this at all." All I
wanted to do then and there was to get the devil out of there. I quite frankly
was scared. So I grabbed my old man and we cleared out.
Mr. HUBERT. But before clearing out, you told them you wanted no part of
it.
Mrs. RICH. Yes; that was after the colonel had said there was going to be
a 3- or 4-month delay and change of plans, and all this, that and the other. I
did not quite figure that maybe things were kosher.
Mr. HUBERT. How did they accept your suggestion that you would bail out?
Mrs. RICH. I don't know. We left. I wasn't going to wait around to find
out.
Mr. HUBERT. So you never did report it to the authorities.
Mrs. RICH. No; I never did.
Mr. HUBERT. Why?
Mrs. RICH. Well, my husband got picked up in
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this was true--he said it wasn't--the policeman said it was. My husband had a
.45. It was not registered.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean a pistol?
Mrs. RICH. Yes; a service automatic. He had no right carrying it. He had
it in the car. At that time he had a little old Nash Rambler station wagon of
his own. This cop says when he picked my husband up my husband was standing in a
little clearing beside the road there on the way out to Rayburn, brandishing a
gun around saying he was going to kill somebody. He come to find out if it was a
cop he was going to kill. I will never know to this day whether this was true or
not.
Mr. HUBERT. How long after the third meeting did this happen?
Mrs. RICH. That happened between the second and third meeting, if my time
elements are right.
Mr. HUBERT. Was your husband arrested?
Mrs. RICH. Yes; he was. That is when this Sy Victorson I mentioned
earlier in my testimony came in. He was an attorney. Perhaps not too honest in
some of the things he does, but a good attorney. And he got my husband out of
it. I had to pay some money. I will never know to this day whether it was true.
I can't believe it.
Mr. HUBERT. And that event took place between the second and third
meeting, is that right?
Mrs. RICH. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. How long after the third meeting did you leave
Mrs. RICH. Oh, possibly 2 weeks.
Mr. HUBERT. And what was the reason for leaving
Mrs. RICH. The minute I put a name to that face I said to Bob, "We
are getting out of here, and we are getting out fast, right now." That was
about 5 o'clock at night. At 8 o'clock we was packed in a U-Haul trailer and
out.
Mr. HUBERT. But you did not put the name to the face at the third
meeting.
Mrs. RICH. No; not until about a week later.
Mr. HUBERT. You then drove to
Mrs. RICH. Yes. But by then everything had fallen into place, because
Ruby had had various characters visit him, both from
Mr. HUBERT. How do you know that?
Mrs. RICH. I was introduced to some of them. I was asked to go out with
some of them.
(At this point, a short recess was taken.)
Mr. HUBERT. Now, I think we left off at the place where you were saying
that subsequent to the third meeting Ruby was visited by certain people whose
names I do not think you mentioned.
Mrs. RICH. No; this was prior. This is while I worked for Ruby.
Mr. HUBERT. I see.
Mrs. RICH. I saw them come and go.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you see Ruby any more after the third meeting?
Mrs. RICH. I did not. I did not see him in fact at the third meeting.
Mr. HUBERT. I mean after the second.
Mrs. RICH. Oh, perhaps on the
street.
Mr. HUBERT. You did not converse with him about this matter at all?
Mrs. RICH. I did not. I wanted no truck with the man.
Mr. HUBERT. And your reason for leaving
Mrs. RICH. I smelled an element that I did not want to have any part of.
Mr. HUBERT. And that element was what?
Mrs. RICH. Police characters, let's say.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, specifically it was, as I understood your testimony,
that you suddenly identified the man who was at the third meeting, but not at
any other, as possibly being the son of Vito Genovese.
Mrs. RICH. Possibly.
Mr. HUBERT. And that you made that recognition, or you associated that
man whom you saw with Vito Genovese, solely because you had seen a picture of
Vito Genovese.
Mrs. RICH. That's correct.
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Mr. HUBERT. And you came to the conclusion, then, that Vito Genovese and
that group of .people were involved in this matter.
Mrs. RICH. Within my own mind; yes. I thought--then I got thinking
perhaps the higher-up that the colonel spoke of was perhaps the element I did
not want to deal with that was running the guns in, and God knows what else.
Mr. HUBERT. Why didn't you report it to the authorities in the interval
between the third meeting and the time you left
Mrs. RICH. For the simple reason that I was hesitant about mentioning
anything about my husband's past. I did not know how much of what my husband had
told me was true. I did not know how much of that he knew before I knew it, or
how deeply he was involved in anything. And quite frankly if my husband was
still alive, I would never have gone to the FBI.
Mr. HUBERT. But you already told us at the end of the second meeting you
had decided to tell the authorities.
Mrs. RICH. Not when I see that element there.
Mr. HUBERT. But that element does not affect----
Mrs. RICH. That element, if what my husband had told me was true, could
have involved him a lot deeper than I suspected. And quite frankly I am not
stupid enough, shall we say, to believe if I ever went to the authorities and
that element was involved that I would ever live to tell a second story. And if
my suppositions were true as to who the man's identity really is--a combination
of fear for myself and protecting my husband. And at that time I thought, I
suppose many citizens do, well, let the next fellow do it, they will catch them
eventually. I chose to close my eyes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You still have the fear of that element?
Mrs. RICH. No; I do not.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Why is that?
Mrs. RICH. Well, since then I have become involved more extensively or
intensively in police work--and I don't know--perhaps I have got some sense in
my head. I am just not. I was told to tell you this--by the way, I had better
bring it in now--I don't know if it has any direct result on this or not--but I
was advised by Mr. Sweeny from the Secret Service and Mr. Fahety from the FBI to
tell you of this. A week----
Mr. HUBERT. When did Mr. Sweeny and Mr. Fahety tell you what you are
about to tell us?
Mrs. RICH. Fahety said it on
Monday--Sweeny said it on Monday.
Mr. HUBERT. Last Monday?
Mrs. RICH. Yesterday. And Fahety told me Friday.
Mr. HUBERT. Where?
Mrs. RICH. On the phone, when I talked to the FBI and the Secret Service,
respectively.
Mr. HUBERT. You did?
Mrs. RICH. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. They called you?
Mrs. RICH. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What did they tell you?
Mrs. RICH. Well, the FBI had called me to advise me of my receiving this
letter, because Kennett had called them. And Sweeny called me to advise me of my
tickets and transportation.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who called the FBI?
Mrs. RICH. Rod Kennett had opened the letter from you people. And at this
time----
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us what they advised you.
Mrs. RICH. They advised me to tell you what I am about to tell you. A
week ago last Saturday night I got home about 10:30, my brother-in-law had a
stroke----
Mr. HUBERT. Let's get the date of that.
Mrs. RICH. That would be a week ago last Saturday.
Mr. HUBERT. Last Saturday was the 30th--the 23d of May.
Mrs. RICH. I believe so.
Mr. HUBERT. All right.
Mrs. RICH. About 10:30 at night I got home. And some phone calls started.
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356 Again,
let me say this may not or it may have a bearing on this. My life was directly
threatened. I called the
Last Thursday I was on my way from my home up to
Mr. HUBERT. And the
Mrs. RICH. That is correct.
Mr. HUBERT. And you also reported it to the police of----
Mrs. RICH.
Mr. HUBERT. He recently contacted you?
Mrs. RICH. Well, the day I was up there we got talking and come to find
out I could probably help him--in fact, me being here today stopped me from
actually doing it.
Mr. HUBERT. And the day you saw him was last Thursday?
Mrs. RICH. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And it was at that time he said he might be able to use your
services?
Mrs. RICH. Yes; most definitely. And then again, come Friday, and I get
notification of this, I was just wondering whether or not it added in.
It may and it may not. But I was told to tell you. And I have done so.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, what happened on Friday?
Mrs. RICH. No. I received notification, your letter.
Mr. HUBERT. I see what you mean.
Mrs. RICH. And I wondered if it did not somehow have a bearing on this.
Mr. HUBERT. But this tailing was after you got the letter, and after you
had spoken to----
Mrs. RICH. No; it started the day before. It was the same week. Thursday
I started to be tailed. Rod got the letter Thursday, called the FBI, and God
knows how many people he told. Thursday afternoon I picked up a tail.
Mr. HUBERT. And you reported that to the
Mrs. RICH That was the first time I saw a policeman that I could pull
over and say, "Get the guy, he is tailing me." And he most definitely
was.
Mr. HUBERT. But there were two occasions when you observed that you were
being tailed.
Mrs. RICH. No; from last Thursday up until Sunday night I had a tail on
me.
Mr. HUBERT. But you reported to the chief of police in
Mrs. RICH. The
Mr. HUBERT. It was a different person, then, you think.
Mrs. RICH. The person that has been tailing me Friday, Saturday, and
Sunday is not the same person that has been tailing me Thursday. They caught the
guy Thursday.
Mr. HUBERT. What sort of an automobile was it that was tailing you?
Mrs. RICH. Thursday?
Mr. HUBERT. No. Well, Thursday first.
Mrs. RICH. Thursday was a black Pontiac, Massachusetts registration, a
Mr. Alberto, from
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Mr. HUBERT. That is his name, Alberto?
Mrs. RICH. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What is his first name?
Mrs. RICH. I have forgotten.
Mr. HUBERT. And the other car that has been tailing you?
Mrs. RICH. Plural.
Mr. HUBERT. What?
Mrs. RICH. More than one.
Mr. HUBERT. More than one individual, or more than one car, or both?
Mrs. RICH. Both. Friday and Saturday it was a green, I would say,
probably 1961, 1962 Chevrolet.
Mr. HUBERT. Green?
Mrs. RICH. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it the same man?
Mrs. RICH. No; it was not. It was an older man.
The fellow following me was probably maybe 21, 23 years old.
Mr. HUBERT. That is the first fellow.
Mrs. RICH. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Friday and Saturday it was the same man?
Mrs. RICH. Middle aged; I didn't get a real good look at him--I would say
probably in his forties. He rather looked to be a husky-looking fellow. And
Sunday I picked up a tail, and it was a man and a woman. And I thought I
recognized the girl, and I cannot be sure.
Mr. HUBERT. Same automobile?
Mrs. RICH. No; it was not the same vehicle.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us about that automobile.
Mrs. RICH. The vehicle that was on me Sunday was a blue two-door hardtop.
And I do not know the make of the car.
Mr. HUBERT. And you have not reported those last incidents?
Mrs. RICH. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, they tailed you from where to where?
Mrs. RICH. Wherever I went. I would leave the house, and believe me I
think I know when I am being tailed. When I pull over to the side of the road,
and a car pulls up and doesn't pass me I will do this two or three times. And
when I take a turnoff where nobody else will take, and the car is still there, I
think they are tailing me.
Mr. HUBERT. You tried to shake them?
Mrs. RICH. Precisely.
Mr. HUBERT. And you were not able to do so.
Mrs. RICH. That's correct.
Mr. HUBERT. When you get to your house, did they park around it?
Mrs. RICH. The one time the man did, down on the bridge--the boundary
line to our property is a river. And he sat down there and pretended to be
looking in the water. And then I would see him down by
Mr. HUBERT. What about at night? Did
you observe anything?
Mrs. RICH. I didn't go out at night.
Mr. HUBERT. Therefore you did not observe anything.
Mrs. RICH. No; I didn't bother. Saturday I went to
Mr. HUBERT. How did you get to
Mrs. RICH. By plane; American Airlines.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you notice anything about being tailed in that regard?
Mrs. RICH. I didn't notice. I don't think I was. I left my house in my
own car and drove to
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358 different.
I think it has to do with the names of some bookmakers and a couple of
abortionists I turned in to the district attorney in
Mr. HUBERT. Now, you mentioned to me earlier that this card which has
been identified as Exhibit No. 3 is a card that is usually issued--am I not
right--that it is a card usually issued under the requirements of
Mrs. RICH. No; that is not correct. No. 1, the card is obsolete. That is
why it was back-dated. It was merely a pawnshop identification card.
Mr. HUBERT. I think you mentioned that it would establish your status in
someway for, I think you used the word, obvious purposes. What would this card
do in connection with the work that you were supposed to do?
Mrs. RICH. Well, the card in itself, nothing. It would prove I was there
when I said I was, because I had to attend associations with certain people, who
at that time were safely tucked away, but at the time I was supposedly supposed
to be there they were not--I was supposedly supposed to have worked for these
people. If I recall correctly I said that I have a police record under that same
name of Julie Anne Cody.
Mr. HUBERT. And that name--that police record--is a fictitious record in
the sense that the offenses listed under the name of Julie Anne Cody really did
not ever occur.
Mrs. RICH. That is correct.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you have any record under your right name?
Mrs. RICH. Yes, I do.
Mr. HUBERT. What is that?
Mrs. RICH. That is in
Mr. HUBERT. Is that fictitious?
Mrs. RICH. That is not.
Mr. HUBERT. Is that the only record you have?
Mrs. RICH. That's correct--that I know of.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, I assume that you would know all the records you have.
Mrs. RICH. Well, when I say that, I was picked up twice in
Mr. HUBERT. Were you ever charged?
Mrs. RICH. Not that I know of.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you ever booked?
Mrs. RICH. I don't believe so.
Mr. HUBERT. But you were arrested.
Mrs. RICH. Yes. One time I was in jail for a couple of hours, the other
time 5 hours, because they could not get hold of Sy, who was on the golf course.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you told why you were being arrested?
Mrs. RICH. I was arrested for investigation of vag, narcotics----
Mr. HUBERT. Of what?
Mrs. RICH. Vag--vagrancy. Narcotics, prostitution, and anything else they
could dream up. This is very shortly after I had threatened to go and bring suit
against Mr. Ruby. I was told I might find the climate outside of
Mr. HUBERT. Who told you that?
Mrs. RICH. The time I went down and wanted to bring charges against Ruby
for assault and battery, I was told not to, and at that time I was also
advised--I was not told to leave the city or anything like that, but that it was
nice in
Mr. HUBERT. And I think you said that you did not remember the name of
the man.
Mrs. RICH. I cannot remember the name of the detective that I spoke to;
no.
Mr. HUBERT. But he was the detective on the police force?
Mrs. RICH. He was. Jack Ruby is very well known in
Mr. HUBERT. What do you mean by that?
Mrs. RICH. Just a personal opinion. I believe now, this is not a fact,
this is just talk, this is just personal opinion--I believe at the time of
the--am I naming it correctly--Oswald assassination, it was claimed that Ruby
got in there
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359 pretending
to be a reporter. Am I correct that that was in the printed page?
Mr. HUBERT. Well, what comment have you got to make to that?
Mrs. RICH. Anyone that made that statement would be either a damn liar or
a damn fool.
Mr. HUBERT. Why?
Mrs. RICH. There is no possible way that Jack Ruby could walk in
Mr. HUBERT. Is that your opinion?
Mrs. RICH. That is not my personal opinion. That is a fact.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, on what do you base it?
Mrs. RICH. Ye gods, I don't think there is a cop in
Mr. HUBERT. When you say even the lowest patrolman on the beat, what do
you mean?
Mrs. RICH. Everybody from the patrolmen on the beat in uniform to, I
guess everybody with the exception of Captain Fritz, used to come in there, knew
him personally. He used to practically live at the station. I am not saying that
Captain Fritz didn't know him. I am saying he was never--I have never seen him
in the Carousel. He has always been, I think, a little too far above things for
that.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, you have seen other high-ranking officers there?
Mrs. RICH. Yes; I have.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you name them, please?
Mrs. RICH. I would if I could. I would be only too glad to.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean you don't know?
Mrs. RICH. I cannot recall names, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you know they were high-ranking officers?
Mrs. RICH. At that time I knew them. Two years from now, if somebody
asked me your name, I would remember I knew you, I had seen you, but I could not
tell him your name.
Mr. HUBERT. You remember Captain Fritz' name.
Mrs. RICH. Everybody remembers Captain Fritz. Will Fritz is quite a
famous man. And I would say he is of the highest integrity. Probably the only
one I know of on the police department that is.
Mr. HUBERT. I think you mentioned in one interview you had with the FBI
that you had some information that a contact in regard to this gunrunning
business was to be made at the Hotel Nueva Gallina in the city of
Mrs. RICH. To the best of my knowledge; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you get the information from?
Mrs. RICH. In the conversation at the second or third meeting.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you mention that to the FBI people in any of your
interviews prior to January?
Mrs. RICH. Not that I recall. I never talked about it prior to the time I
went there.
Mr. HUBERT. You spoke to the FBI in November and again in December.
Mrs. RICH. Let's put it this way. When you say prior to me going to the
FBI--I went to the FBI the first time I believe in
Mr. HUBERT. I think it is a fact, is it not, that you contacted the FBI
in
Mrs. RICH. I believe it was in January. It was in
Mr. HUBERT. It was in
Mrs. RICH. Yes. I believe it was Mr. Stoddard I talked to.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the additional information?
Mrs. RICH. Right now I do not even remember.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall that you found something among your things
359 Page
360 which
indicated that the contact during the gunrunning proposition was supposed to be
at this hotel in
Mrs. RICH. I don't remember what it was I turned up. I think it was
then--I know I turned up an address book with a telephone number in it. I forgot
whether that was here or in
Mr. HUBERT. But the information that you had gotten concerning the
contact point as being in this hotel in
Mrs. RICH. It was obtained there; yes. And if I remember, it had eluded
me when I first talked to them. And if I am not mistaken--I should have brought
it--I have it on the back of a business card at home, that I turned up among
some of my old business cards from
Mr. GRIFFIN. Whose name was on the front of the business card?
Mrs. RICH. Some advertising agency. It was just some card I marked it
down on.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you in the advertising business in 1961?
Mrs. RICH. Yes; I was.
Mr. HUBERT. Where?
Mrs. RICH. In
Mr. HUBERT. What part of 1961?
Mrs. RICH. The first week in April we had the Governor proclaim it.
Mr. HUBERT. Who said that the contact was going to be at this hotel in
Mrs. RICH. I don't know which
one said it, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember at what meeting this was said?
Mrs. RICH. I believe at the third--the second. I wouldn't swear, but I
think the third.
Mr. HUBERT. It was definitely not the first.
Mrs. RICH. No; definitely not the first. Either the second or the third.
Mr. HUBERT. It was at the second that you had raised your price, I think,
to $25,000.
Mrs. RICH. That is correct.
Mr. HUBERT. And it was either that meeting or the third meeting that you
got the information about the contact point being in this hotel.
Mrs. RICH. I am not sure which one it was, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You indicated that you did not know where this house was
located in
Mrs. RICH. I couldn't give you a street; no.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you give us a general area of
Mrs. RICH. I am sorry, sir, I wish I could. I would recognize the house
if I saw it. I cannot explain the human mind to you. Why is it that sometimes if
you don't want to remember something, you can block things off? It was something
distasteful to me. I have perhaps not been a model person but----
Mr. HUBERT. Have you heard from this man Dave since you left
Mrs. RICH. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Does the name Dave Cherry mean anything to you?
Mrs. RICH. That's it. I have been wracking my brain for that name. A
swell-looking fellow--crewcut, young, real college-looking type.
Mr. HUBERT. How long had you known him?
Mrs. RICH. A couple of months.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you meet him?
Mrs. RICH. University Club. I believe I met him there. Just precisely
where I met him I don't know. I think the University Club.
Mr. HUBERT. Is that prior to the time your husband came to
Mrs. RICH. I don't remember if I met him before or after, to be truthful.
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Mr. HUBERT. In any case, he was the man who made the contact.
Mrs. RICH. Again, as I told the FBI, I will swear about 99 percent of it
that he was the one.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, you went there--he was present at three meetings.
Mrs. RICH. That is correct.
Mr. HUBERT. And you knew him for 2 months prior to that.
Mrs. RICH. That is correct--about.
Mr. HUBERT. Why should there be any doubt in your mind whatsoever?
Mrs. RICH. Because somewhere another face keeps popping up.
And don't ask me to go into it, because I could not if I tried.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean you think it might not be Dave Cherry?
Mrs. RICH. No; that it is. I
am about 1 percent unsure. And I told the FBI that. But that is the only face I
can put with that. And I keep putting Dave in that car and over there with us.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you advise your husband about being tailed recently?
Mrs. RICH. Yes; my husband is aware of it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now----
Mrs. RICH. As I say, I don't believe this has anything to do with this at
all. I told you merely because I was told to. Otherwise I would never point it
out.
Mr. HUBERT. Perhaps we ought to get for the record what the names of
these Secret Service and FBI agents are. I think you mentioned their last names.
Do you know their first names?
Mrs. RICH. No; I do not, sir. I would not know them if I saw them.
Mr. HUBERT. They just spoke to you on the telephone?
Mrs. RICH. That's correct.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you know they were FBI agents?
Mrs. RICH. The first time when Mr. Fahety called me I was not sure, and I
would not answer any questions. So he said, "Call me back collect" and
I called the FBI back collect and it was true enough. Mr. Sweeny I know it was,
because he said he bought the tickets and had information only the Secret
Service would know, and that Mr. Milton would pick me up subsequently, which he
did.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You mentioned, I think, Mrs. Rich, that you were going to
use a boat to transport the guns to
Mrs. RICH. That's correct.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was this boat located?
Mrs. RICH. From what I understood; in
Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of a boat was it?
Mrs. RICH. I don't know. I was under the impression it might have been an
old picket boat.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What gave you that impression?
Mrs. RICH. Just the talk about it. I kind of got the impression that it
might have been one that had been--you know how the Coast Guard and the Navy
would sell them off sometime.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Had Dave Cherry been a friend of your husband's?
Mrs. RICH. No; I don't believe so. I do not know who his friends were
when he was in
Mr. GRIFFIN. How soon after your husband came to
Mrs. RICH. I could not really say, actually.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, what was the nature of his friendship for Dave Cherry?
Mrs. RICH. How did he meet him?
Mr. GRIFFIN. No. To what extent were they friendly?
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362
Mrs. RICH. I don't know. They would go off some time and I would not even
be there. Actually a lot of the stuff that transpired I could not tell you.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this before or after the meeting with the colonel?
Mrs. RICH. He know Dave before the meeting.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And how had he met him?
Mrs. RICH. Through me. And then again I am not clear whether I met
him--this is another point I am not clear on. I am not clear whether Bob met
Dave and introduced him to me or I introduced Dave to Bob. Here again I am not
clear. This may sound ridiculous, but I am not.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was your husband's experience with boats?
Mrs. RICH. Again, factually I cannot tell you. Supposedly he had been in
gun running before.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is the only experience you know of that he had with
boats?
Mrs. RICH. He claimed he owned a big boat, he and Lee Dell owned a big
boat out in
Mr. GRIFFIN. And you don't know what your role was to be in this?
Mrs. RICH. Oh, you mean in this gun-running stuff to
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mrs. RICH. Just by sheer force of will and apparently because they wanted
my husband, I was going to go along.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You were going to go along as a passenger?
Mrs. RICH. I was going to help working the boat, because I had knowledge
of boats.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What knowledge did you have of the boats?
Mrs. RICH. I was born and brought up in
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall any occasion on which you went to the
University Club and had some drinks and didn't pay for them?
Mrs. RICH. I don't think I ever paid for drinks at the University Club.
Mr. HUBERT. Why?
Mrs. RICH. Dave never took money.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you go alone?
Mrs. RICH. I don't remember. I believe so. Maybe, maybe not.
Mr. HUBERT. But they would not take your money?
Mrs. RICH. Dave never charged me. He always told me it was all right. And
I don't drink anyway. All I drink is coke. Once in a great, great while I will
drink either a grasshopper or like last night I was all keyed up so I had a
brandy Alexander before I went to bed. But I might have done this five times in
10 years.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember an argument you had with your former and
deceased husband, Robert Perrin, in the University Club, which argument was
witnessed by Dave Cherry?
Mrs. RICH. I never had an argument with my husband in the University Club
or anywhere else.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the manager of the University Club telling
you that neither you nor your husband could return to the club thereafter?
Mrs. RICH. I do not.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever telephone Cherry advising him that you were
leaving for
Mrs. RICH. I believe I did. I might have, because that is what my plans
happened to have been.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you in fact work for the Playboy Club?
Mrs. RICH. Yes, I did.
Mr. HUBERT. For how long?
Mrs. RICH. 2 or 3 nights.
Mr. HUBERT. What happened?
Mrs. RICH. I didn't like it. For one thing, you were not allowed to keep
tips.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you live in
Mrs. RICH. Part of the time down in one of the Sisters' places, down in
the
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363 French
Quarter, on St. Philip's Street. And then 1713 Calhoun. That is where my husband
died. And various other places which I cannot remember, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. What did your husband do for a living while you were in
Mrs. RICH. The last time he had the best position I have ever seen him
hold. He was working for a
construction company.
Mr. HUBERT. Which one?
Mrs. RICH. Oh, dear. Dickie Bennett, Mr. McHane, those were two of his
bosses--Mr. White.
Mr. HUBERT. What construction was he working on?
Mrs. RICH. Well, he was a mechanic for the heavy equipment. He was just
getting a raise and everything when this happened.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know the location where he was working?
Mrs. RICH. Yes, out in Jeff Parish.
Mr. HUBERT. Was the building going up there?
Mrs. RICH. No, they had this contract for the phone company. They would
lay all their roads, and the poles and stuff, and various things. He would go
out on jobs. I got him the job through Dickie Bennett.
Mr. HUBERT. You did not work at that time?
Mrs. RICH. I----
Mr. HUBERT. I mean the time you were in
Mrs. RICH. I would rather not answer that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This----
Mrs. RICH. I will answer to this extent. For one thing, I dealt black
jack.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Mrs. Rich, you mentioned the name of a man by the name of
Brawner. Now, did Mr. Brawner ever attend any of these meetings with the
colonel?
Mrs. RICH. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So his only knowledge of this would be what your husband
might have told him.
Mrs. RICH. That is correct.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What does Mr. Brawner do for a living?
Mrs. RICH. I don't know what Eddie does--odd jobs.
Mr. HUBERT. How old a man is he?
Mrs. RICH. Middle age--40, maybe. Does a lot of work with kids in these
go carts--soap box derbies and stuff. I guess they used to be in the carnival
together. As I say, everything I say, I don't know how much truth there is in it
from what my husband told me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where does Mr. Brawner live?
Mrs. RICH.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know where in
Mrs. RICH. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is he married?
Mrs. RICH. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Does he have a family?
Mrs. RICH. Yes; he does. I believe his wife's name is Mary.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How many children does he have?
Mrs. RICH. I don't remember--quite a few--three or four.
I would like one thing known. Until the time I met my husband and since
he died I have done nothing that I would be ashamed of, nothing I would not do
in public. Now that I am married to Mr. Rich I do not want any recriminations
due to the fact of the period of time I was married to my husband. My
husband--the first year and a half of our marriage was beautiful. Then my
husband turned me out. Don't ask me why I didn't leave him. Everyone else asked
me that. It is not easy being something that is against everything that you
believe in or stand for 2 years. There were periods--I told the FBI this, and I
might as well state it right here. I was a prostitute--call it what you
may--call girl, madam. It still boils down to the same damn thing. When I
worked, he worked. When I quit, he quit.
Mr. HUBERT. You are talking about Robert Perrin?
Mrs. RICH. I am talking about Robert Perrin.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you marry Mr. Perrin?
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Mrs. RICH. July of--August of 1960, I believe 1961. I have forgotten.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Prior to that time you had never been in any trouble with
the police?
Mrs. RICH. No; except when I was 16, I was driving a car with no license
and had been taking some medicine and I hit a pole with it, and lied to my
uncle, who was the judge, and he made me pay a fine. He made me spend overnight
in our own little jail in our own little town to teach me a lesson, and it did.
He said if I had not lied, it would have been all right.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the significance of your remark that when you worked
he worked, and when you did not work----
Mrs. RICH. As long as I was hustling he would work, and as long as I
wasn't hustling he would not work.
Mr. HUBERT. Does that mean he was----
Mrs. RICH. My husband turned me out. That is what it means.
Mr. HUBERT. Turned you out of the house?
Mrs. RICH. This is an expression used in that particular trade.
Mr. HUBERT. What you mean is----
Mrs. RICH. He taught me how
to be a prostitute, obtained dates for me, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. I
married into a very respectable family. I come from a respectable family. And I
came here today all set on any question such as this to take the fifth
amendment, or just refuse to answer.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, ma'am, let the record show that a moment ago, when you
said you would rather not go into this, you were not pressed into going into it,
but you said you wished to do so, is that correct?
Mrs. RICH. That is not correct.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the situation?
Mrs. RICH. Why did I do it?
Mr. HUBERT. No; why did you tell us about this?
Mrs. RICH. I am sorry. Change my statement from that is not correct to
that is correct.
Mr. HUBERT. That is to say a moment ago--let me get this clear--when you
said that is a matter you did not want to go into, you will agree with me, will
you not, that I did not pursue the matter, but that you then said "I might
as well tell you" and proceeded to do so.
Mrs. RICH. That is correct. Why did I do so?
Mr. HUBERT. No, ma'am; I am not asking you why.
Mrs. RICH. All right, that's fine.
Mr. HUBERT. I think we do have the date of your husband's death.
Mrs. RICH. August 29, 1962, city of
Mr. HUBERT. And you say there was an autopsy made?
Mrs. RICH. Yes; there was. He had been dead 2 days before I knew it. I
wasn't there. I think all I felt was a great sense of relief.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, Mrs. Rich, is it not a fact that there has been no
off-the-record conversation between us at all?
Mrs. RICH. That is correct?
Mr. HUBERT. Is it not a fact that all that has occurred between you and
me in this interview, with Mr. Griffin, is all on the record?
Mrs. RICH. That is correct.
Mr. HUBERT. All right. Thank you, Mrs. Rich. ------------------- |