TESTIMONY
OF ROY SANSOM TRULY
Mr. BELIN. Next we will call Mr. Truly.
Mr. McCLOY. Will you raise your right hand, and stand.
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give in this case will be
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. TRULY. I do.
Mr. McCLOY. I would like to state, Mr. Truly, what the purpose of this
hearing is.
This is to hear the testimony of several witnesses, or people close to
the event of the assassination of the President, to get as much knowledge as we
can of' the facts concerning that event, which largely centers around the School
Book Depository and the people in it, on the afternoon of November 22d.
Will you state for the record your full name?
Mr. TRULY. Roy Sansom Truly.
Mr. BELIN. Mr. Truly, where do you live?
Mr. TRULY. I live at
Mr. BELIN. Are you originally from
Mr. TRULY. No. I have been in
Mr. BELIN. Where were you born, sir?
Mr. TRULY.
Mr. BELIN. And what was your birth date?
Mr. TRULY. August 29, 1907.
Mr. BELIN. Mr. Truly, where did you go to school?
Mr. TRULY. I finished high school at Hubbard--
Mr. BELIN. In
Mr. TRULY. In
Mr. BELIN. And what did you do after you finished high school?
Mr. TRULY. Well, I came to
Mr. BELIN. For whom did you become employed when you came to
Mr. TRULY. I believe my father ran a cafe here in
Mr. BELIN. What business is that?
Mr. TRULY. That is wholesale drygoods.
Mr. BELIN. And how long did you work with them?
Mr. TRULY. I believe a little less than a year.
Mr. BELIN. And then where did you
Mr. TRULY. I went to work for National Casket Co.
Mr. BELIN. And about how long did you work for them?
Mr. TRULY. I couldn't be certain. Several years--maybe 3 or 4 or 5 years.
Mr. BELIN. And in what capacity did you work for them?
Mr. TRULY. Well, I worked in the cloth room, learning the trade of
putting in the drapery and things in the caskets.
Mr. BELIN. And from there, where did you go?
Mr. TRULY. I worked a short time at the Dallas Coffin Co., several
months. It wasn't very long. And I left there and during the depression I worked
for several things. I drove a laundry truck off and on for a couple of years.
(At this point, Representative Ford withdrew from the hearing room.)
Mr. TRULY. I believe I even worked for the WPA back there in those days.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
And after the depression, where did you start working then?
Mr. TRULY. I went to work for the
Mr. BELIN. And have you been employed by the
Mr. TRULY. That is right.
(At this point, Mr. Dulles entered the hearing room.)
Mr. BELIN. In what capacity have you worked for that company?
Mr. TRULY. First, when I first went to work for this company, I had
charge of
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the
miscellaneous order department, which is actually a one-man operation. I filled
orders for books other than state-adopted textbooks.
Mr. BELIN. And then what?
Mr. TRULY. I worked on through that time until the present time. During
the war I worked in the North American plant at
Mr. BELIN. That is the North American Aviation?
Mr. TRULY. North American Aviation plant at
Well, I would go down to work 2, 3, 4 hours a day. Shortly after that, I
took charge of all the shipping.
Well, I have been superintendent of the operation since some time in the
late 1944.
Mr. BELIN. You have been superintendent of the
Mr. TRULY. I am a director--I am a member of the board of directors of
the
Mr. BELIN. Is that a state organization or a private company?
Mr. TRULY. It is a private corporation.
Mr. BELIN. Mr. Truly, when did you first hear of the name of Lee Harvey
Oswald?
Mr. TRULY. I heard the name on or about October 15th.
Mr. BELIN. Of what year?
Mr. TRULY. Of 1963.
Mr. BELIN. And from whom did you hear the name? Could you just relate to
the Commission the circumstances, if you would, please?
Mr. TRULY. I received a phone call from a lady in
Mr. BELIN. All right.
What did Mrs. Paine say, and what did you say?
Mr. TRULY. She said, "Mr. Truly,"---words to this effect---you
understand---" Mr. Truly, you don't know who I am but I have a neighbor
whose brother works for you. I don't know what his name is. But he tells his
sister that you are very busy. And I am just wondering if you can use another
man," or words to that effect.
And I told Mrs.---she said, "I have a fine young man living here
with his wife and baby, and his wife is expecting a baby--another baby, in a few
days, and he needs work desperately."
Now, this is not absolutely--this is as near as I can remember the
conversation over the telephone.
And I told Mrs. Paine that--to send him down, and I would talk to
him--that I didn't have anything in mind for him of a permanent nature, but if
he was suited, we could possibly use him for a brief time.
Mr. BELIN. Was there anything else from that conversation that you
remember at all, or not?
Mr. TRULY. No. I believe that was the first and the last time that I
talked to Mrs. Paine.
In fact, I could not remember her name afterwards until I saw her name in
print, and then it popped into my mind that this was the lady who called me.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Anything
else on--what was this--October 15th--about Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr. TRULY, Yes, sir; I am sure it was on October 15th.
Mr. BELIN. Anything else you can remember about Lee Harvey Oswald on that
day?
Mr. TRULY. She told me she would tell him to come down and see me.
So he came in, introduced himself to me, and I took him in my office and
interviewed him. He seemed to be quiet and well mannered.
I gave him an application to fill out, which he did.
Mr. BELIN. Did he fill it out in front of you, or not?
Mr. TRULY. Yes; he did. And he told me I asked him about experience that
he had had, or where he had worked, and he said he had just served his term in
the Marine Corps and had received an honorable discharge, and he listed some
things of an office nature that he had learned to do in the Marines.
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I questioned him about any past activities. I asked him if he had ever
had any trouble with the police, and he said, no. So thinking that he was just
out of the Marines, I didn't check any further back. I didn't have anything of a
permanent nature in mind for him. He looked like a nice young fellow to me--he
was quiet and well mannered. He used the word "sir", you know, which a
lot of them don't do at this time.
So I told him if he would come to work on the morning of the 16th, it was
the beginning of a new pay period. So he filled out his withholding slip, with
the exception of the number of dependents.
He asked me if I would hold that for 3 or 4 days, that he is expecting a
baby momentarily.
So some 4 days or so later--I don't remember the exact day--he told me
that he had this new baby, and he wanted to add one dependent.
He finished filling it out. And I sent it up to Mr. Campbell who makes
out the payroll for the company.
Mr. BELIN. Now, on October 15th you saw him fill out the application form
for employment in his own writing?
Mr. TRULY. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. You also saw him fill out the withholding slip, except for the
number of exemptions, in his own writing, is that correct?
Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Any other conversation that you can remember from your meeting
on October 15th?
Mr. TRULY. Well, he told me that he needed a job. He said he had a wife
and child to support. And he also repeated that he was expecting a child in a
few days.
And I told Lee Oswald that I had some work, that if he could fit in, of a
temporary nature, we could put him on. But I didn't have anything in mind of a
permanent job at that time, because I didn't have any openings for a permanent
person. And he said he would be glad to have any type of work I would give him,
because he did need-- and he stressed he really needed a job to support his
family.
Mr. BELIN. Anything else from that conversation on October 15th?
Mr. TRULY. Nothing that I can recall, except that he seemed to be
grateful that I was giving him the chance of a little extra work, if you want to
call it that.
He
left, and I didn't see him any more until the morning of the 16th.
Mr. BELIN. What were his hours of work to be?
Mr. TRULY, His hours were from 8 in the morning until 4:45 in the
afternoon. His lunch period was from 12 to 12:45.
Mr. BELIN. Did you have a time clock there that they punch or not?
Mr. TRULY. No, sir.
Mr. BELIN. The next morning, do you know whether or not he came to work?
Mr. TRULY. He came to work the next morning. I told him what his duties
were to be would be filling book orders. And I told Mr. Shelley, who is on that
floor and has charge of the miscellaneous department.
Now, this particular thing as to whether I called a boy or Mr. Shelley
did--anyway, we put Lee Oswald with another worker who was experienced in
filling orders. This boy showed him the location of the various publishers'
stock. He worked with him, it seems to me, like only an hour or two, and then he
started filling orders by himself. And from then on he worked alone.
He would occasionally ask the other boys where certain stock items were
when he couldn't find them. But he was filling small parcel post and a few
freight orders for the various schools--as they would come down from the office.
Mr. BELIN. Well, could you describe how his work progressed as he was
working with you?
Mr. TRULY. Well, he seemed to catch on and learn the location of the
stock. We have several thousand titles of books in our warehouse. But he was
filling mostly one or two publishers' orders.
Mr. BELIN. What publishers were those?
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Mr. TRULY. The main publisher was Scott, Foresman and Co.
Now, they have quite a lot of small orders, all through the year. They
are one of our biggest publishers. So it kept him busy filling mostly their
orders, plus some of the smaller publishers. Possibly he filled some of Gregg
Publishing Go. and others. But when he would run out of Scott, Foreman orders,
he would pick up other orders that might have had several publishers' books on
the same order.
Incidentally, not only Scott, Foresman orders were billed separately.
There would be other publishers' orders on the same invoice.
Mr. BELIN. Well, perhaps you might explain to the Commission just what
exactly the nature of your business is, and how an employee would go about
filling orders.
Mr. TRULY. We are agents for a number of publishers. We furnish offices
for those who desire them in
Now, we have most of the publishers' stock is lined up alphabetically by
titles or by stock numbers or code numbers, whichever determines that.
And the location of the books each publisher's books are to themselves.
They are not mixed in with several other publishers on the various floors.
On the first floor we have bin stock, shelf stock, we fill a lot of small
orders from.
And then in the basement the same.
The fifth and the sixth floor, and part of the seventh floor is overflow
stock. It is reserve stock.
But the boys have to go to those floors all during the day to pick up
stock and bring it to the first floor in order to process and complete the
orders for the checker.
Mr. DULLES. What would reserve stock mean?
Mr. TRULY. Actually it is not reserve stock--it is not surplus either. It
is part of our stock. But we can carry a limited. amount only on the first floor
where we do our shipping. So they may get an order for a hundred copies of a
certain book and there may only be 10 or 15 or 20 on the shelf on the first
floor. They will have to go upstairs and get a carton or two. And they replenish
the first floor stock from that.
And many of our freight orders are filled entirely from our reserve
stock. And they bring them to the first floor. All orders reach the first floor,
where they are checked and processed and packed and shipped from that floor.
Mr. BELIN. Where, generally, are Scott, Foresman books kept?
Mr. TRULY. On the first floor and the sixth floor. We have a large
quantity of their books on the sixth floor.
Mr. BELIN. And this is the area where Lee Harvey Oswald worked?
Mr. TRULY. That is right.
Mr. BELIN. That publisher?
Mr. TRULY. That publisher. He had occasion to go to the sixth floor quite
a number of times every day, each day, after books.
Mr. BELIN. Now, when an order would come in, how would it get to the
individual employee, so the employee would go out and pick out the books?
Mr. TRULY. The orders came into our office and were processed by our
girls, priced and billed by the bill clerks, and then were sent down a little
chute to the first floor, a little dumbwaiter, regardless of publisher.
The boys would take them off of this dumbwaiter and carry them over on to
a little table near the checker stand.
Various ones would sort out the publishers--sort out the orders by
publishers.
Scott, Foresman could be here, there would be a stock of Gregg and
Southwestern over here, we have a number of small publishers, maybe we would
group them altogether. And the boys usually know which particular orders they
are supposed to fill from, because they-know the books, they can tell.
On each order it says, "SF" for Scott, Foresman on each invoice
and so forth.
Mr. BELIN. Do they just pick up the piece of paper for the order and
carry them around with them?
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Mr. TRULY. That is right, Most of them use a clipboard. They may have
several orders at a time on the clipboard. That saves them going back to the
table continually for one order. These orders amount from anything to $3 or $4
to $300 or $400, on up.
But usually if a boy is filling Scott, Foresman's orders, for instance,
and he sees half a dozen over there, he will pick up maybe that many.
But during our busy season, when we have stacks and stacks of orders on
the table, they don't try to put them all on a clipboard, they take a few at a
time when they go to the sixth floor after stock, they try to be certain what
they need for several orders at one trip.
Mr. BELIN. Who else worked on Scott, Foresman other than Lee Harvey
Oswald?
Mr. TRULY. Well, I assume that all of our boys, all of our order fillers
have worked at some time or other, because when the boys finish up the stocks
they are working, the orders they are filling, if there is anything left,
regardless of publisher, they go fill it.
But Scott, Foresman was one of our publishers that I would say would be
easiest for a new man to learn how to fill.
And we have a lot of those orders.
You can give a new man those orders, once he understands a little about
the alphabetical arrangement, the location of the stock, and he can go ahead and
fill orders, and you won't have to keep showing him things. They are easier to
fill.
Usually the boys that fill a lot of the other orders are the boys that
have had more experience overall, they have been there some time, and they will
know the general location of all the stock, and it is just easier for an
experienced man to fill some other orders.
Mr. BELIN. When they fill the orders, they go and get the books, and
bring them down to your wrapping and mailing section?
Mr. TRULY. That is right. And they are checked to see that they are in
correct quantities and titles and called for on the order, or the invoice.
Then they are weighed up on parcel post scales, if they go by parcel
post, or they are processed over on the floor if they are big enough for
freight.
Mr. BELIN. And, as I understand it, they would first look to see if the
title would be on the first floor in your bins, and then only if it wasn't on
the first floor would they go up to some of the upper floors with your reserve
stock, is that correct?
Mr. TRULY. That is right.
Mr. BELIN. Anything else you can think of with regard to the particular
nature of the type of work that Lee Harvey Oswald did when he was working for
your company?
Mr. TRULY. Nothing except that we have occasionally--we would check the
number of orders that each boy filled per day, to see if he is doing a day's
work. And each invoice which is the billing of the order, has a little section
for a checker's number. And the order filler's number. Our checker periodically
would count at the end of the day the number of orders that each order filler
filled that day.
We could tell at that time whether some of them were doing much more work
than others.
And we also kept a list of mistakes that he catches a boy making, such as
filling the wrong quantity of books, or the wrong title. We didn't do that every
day, because it is a top heavy thing, and if we have to keep a check on your
boys all the time, it is not worthwhile.
Mr. BELIN. What did you find generally--would you classify Lee Harvey
Oswald as an average employee--above average, or below average employee?
Mr. TRULY. I would say for the nature of the work and the time he was
there, the work that he did was a bit above average. I wasn't on that floor
constantly. The boy, from all reports to me, and what I have seen kept working
and talked little to anybody else. He just kept moving. And he did a good day's
work.
Mr. BELIN. What was his pay?
Mr. TRULY. $1.25 an hour.
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Mr. BELIN. 5-day week?
Mr. TRULY. Yes
Mr. BELIE. Did he miss many days of work?
Mr. TRULY. We had no record of him missing any days.
Mr. BELIN. By the way, was your company open on Armistice Day, November
11th, or not? If you know.
Mr. TRULY. We usually are closed on that day.
Now, I just cannot remember whether we were closed that day or not.
Mr. BELIN. I hand you what has been marked Commission Exhibit No. 496,
which appears to be a photostatic copy of a document, and I ask you to state if
you know what that is.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 496 for
identification.)
Mr. TRULY. This is a copy of the application blank that Oswald filled
out. I am not familiar with his handwriting, because he didn't do anything that
we have records of. All the work that he ever did was put his number or
something.
Mr. BELIN, Well, my first question is this: Is this particular form a
form of your company?
Mr. TRULY. That is one form; yes. We changed it a little bit, and this
might have been just one that I pulled out. I can't recall whether it is the one
we use now or the one we did use.
Mr. BELIN. Well, was this a form that you were using at about the time he
came for employment?
Mr. TRULY. Yes.
(At this point, Representative Ford entered the hearing room.)
Mr. BELIN. Did you see him fill this out? Was it in your office or not?
Mr. TRULY. Yes. He was sitting opposite me, and he filled it out on my
desk.
Mr. BELIN. He filled this Exhibit 496 out on your desk?
Mr. TRULY. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. At this time we offer in evidence Exhibit 496.
495 as yet has not been offered. And I don't know if 494 has been offered
or not.
But, in the event it has not, we offer that in evidence.
Mr. McCLOY. It may be admitted.
(The documents heretofore marked for identification as Commission
Exhibits Nos. 494, 495, and 496 were received in evidence.)
Mr. BELIN. Mr. Truly, are there any other observations you can give about
Lee Harvey Oswald as an employee during the month of October 1963, or during the
month of November, prior to November 22, 1963?
Mr. TRULY. Nothing that I can recall.
I would speak to him in the morning when I would come through, and I
would say, "Good morning, Lee," and he would say, "Good morning,
sir."
I would ask him how he was. Occasionally I would ask about his baby, and
he would usually smile a big smile when I asked him how his new baby was. And
that was just about the extent of my conversation that I can remember with the
boy.
But I usually saw him every morning as I would come through. He would be
working around the front part of the Scott, Foresman bins and shelf space.
Mr. BELIN. Did you ever see whether or not he seemed to strike up any
friendship or acquaintanceship with the other employees?
Mr. TRULY. No; I never noticed that anywheres. In fact, I would be
inclined--well--I never saw him with anyone else, except occasionally talking,
maybe asking where books were or something.
I don't know what he would say. But very little conversation he had with
anyone.
And he worked by himself. His job was something that he needed no help
with, other than to ask occasionally for stock. It wasn't a teamwork job at all.
Consequently, he didn't have much occasion to talk with the other boys.
I thought it was a pretty good trait at the time, because occasionally
you
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have
to spread your boys out and say, "Quit talking so much, let's get to
work."
And it seemed to me like he paid attention to his job.
Mr. BELIN. Did you notice whether or not he brought his lunch to work
generally?
Mr. TRULY. I never was aware that he brought a lunch. I would see him
occasionally in the shipping department eating some little snack or
something--didn't pay much attention: Offhand, it seemed to be not too much---a
Coca-Cola, Dr. Pepper, and some little thing.
Maybe he would be sitting there reading a book or a newspaper.
Mr. BELIN. You would see him occasionally reading a newspaper at the
lunch hour?
Mr. TRULY. I am sure so; yes.
And occasionally--I didn't always go to lunch at 12--usually a little
after. And he would have to pass my door to go out the front. Occasionally I had
seen the boy go out, and maybe he would be gone long enough to get across the
street and back, with something in his hand. I seem to recall possibly a
newspaper, maybe potato chips or something like that.
Mr. BELIN. Did you ever have any discussions with him about politics or
anything like that?
Mr. TRULY. Never.
Mr. BELIN. Prior to November 22, did you have any discussion with him
about the Presidential motorcade, or hear him tail to anyone about it?
Mr. TRULY. I never heard him talk to anyone, and I didn't talk to him
myself.
Mr. BELIN. Any other things about Lee Harvey Oswald prior to November 22
that you can think of?
Mr. TRULY. Offhand I cannot recall a thing.
Just like I said--he seemed to go about his business in a quiet way,
didn't talk much, seemed to be doing a satisfactory job.
Mr. BELIN. If you turn behind you, you will see Commission Exhibit No.
362, and it appears to be a floor plan which is entitled, "Texas School
Book Depository." You see the room marked Mr. Truly's office?
Mr. TRULY. That is right
Mr. BELIN. Does that appear to accurately depict where your office is
located?
This
is the front of the building here at the top.
Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. And it was in the place marked Mr. Truly's office that Lee
Harvey Oswald filled out in front of you on your desk Exhibit 496?
Mr. TRULY. That is right.
Mr. BELIN. And also the withholding slip?
Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Now I want to take you to the morning of November 22d.
First let me ask you when you first heard your employees discussing the
fact that the motorcade would be going by the Texas School Book Depository? Was
that first on the morning of November 22d that you heard that, or at any prior
date?
Mr. TRULY. I don't recall. I don't recall hearing any particular
discussion about him coming by. No, sir; I don't.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
What
time did you get to work on November 22d?
Mr. TRULY. Around 8 o'clock, or shortly thereafter.
Mr. BELIN. Did you see Lee Harvey Oswald at any time during that day?
Mr. TRULY. I am almost certain that I saw him early that morning as I
came in, and spoke to him.
Mr. BELIN. And where was he when you saw him?
Mr. TRULY. I think he was around the front part of the Scott, Foresman
bins.
Mr. BELIN. On what floor?
Mr. TRULY. On the first floor.
Mr. BELIN. Was he filling orders?
Mr. TRULY. Apparently; yes, sir. I don't recall too close. But I am
almost certain that I talked to him that morning.
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Mr. BELIN. Do you recall any conversation you might have had with him, or
he might have had with you?
Mr. TRULY. No, sir. If there was anything, I just said "Good
morning, Lee", and he said, "Good morning, sir" and that would be
the extent of my conversation, if I saw him that morning, which I am almost
certain I did.
Mr. BELIN. Did you see him any other time during that day?
Mr. TRULY. I cannot recall. I believe I saw him that morning later on,
around his work. But I probably wasn't on that floor too much, or out on the
floor that morning.
Mr. BELIN. Now, when did you leave for lunch, Mr. Truly?
Mr. TRULY. As near as I know, it was between somewheres around 12:10 or
shortly after, possibly 12:15.
Mr. BELIN. At that time did you go out to lunch?
Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Where did you go to eat?
Mr. TRULY. We didn't go anywheres. Mr. Campbell and I--
Mr. BELIN. That is Mr. O. V. Campbell?
Mr. TRULY. Mr. O. V. Campbell, vice president--and I had started out for
lunch. I don't know as we had any particular place in mind. We ate at several
places around there.
It was around 12:10 or 12:15, I would say, to the nearest of my memory.
As we got to the outside of the building, we noticed that it wouldn't be
long until the motorcade would come by, and we decided to wait and watch the
President come by.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember where you were standing with Mr. Campbell?
Mr. TRULY. I would judge out in Elm Street, 10 to 15 or 20 feet from the
front steps. We first stood on the steps, the bottom steps a few minutes, and
then we walked out in the line of spectators on the side of Elm Street.
Mr. BELIN. I hand you what has been marked Commission Exhibit 495, and
ask you to state, if you know, what this is.
Mr. TRULY. This is the front entrance to our building.
Mr. BELIN. In what direction would the camera be pointing?
Mr. TRULY. Almost straight out from it. It would not be well, it could be
on a little angle.
Mr. BELIN. I mean would the camera be pointing east, west, north, or
south?
Mr. TRULY. North.
Mr. BELIN. And the camera would be pointing north on Exhibit 495.
I wonder if on that exhibit you would put the place where you and Mr.
Campbell first stood, and mark that with the letter "A" if you would.
Mr. TRULY. The street curved there, I suppose. I think possibly along
here somewheres.
Mr. BELIN. You have marked a letter "A" on Exhibit 495. Now, I
believe you said that afterwards you went and moved out towards the street, is
that correct?
Mr. TRULY. That is right.
Mr. BELIN. I am going to put up on the board Commission Exhibit No. 361.
The
bottom of the picture is relatively north, sir.
And the top faces roughly south.
And here is the Texas School Book Depository Building--located at Houston
and Elm.
Mr. TRULY. That is right.
Mr. BELIN. I wonder if you could put on Exhibit 361 with the letter
"T" the spot at which you were standing when you moved to a closer
position to watch the motorcade.
Mr. TRULY. I could be off a few feet, but I believe possibly over this
way just a bit--that is within 3 or 4 or 5 feet of this area.
We were almost out in this. And I think when the motorcade came around,
we probably pushed out even a bit farther.
Mr. BELIN. Now, by this, you are referring to the entrance to the
parkway, is that correct?
Mr. TRULY. Yes.
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Mr. BELIN. And, you say that you are either at the spot marked by the
letter. "T" or perhaps a little bit to the east of that?
Mr. TRULY. That is right.
Mr. BELIN. And that you gradually might have moved a little bit towards
the south, towards the parkway, is that correct?
Mr. TRULY. That is correct.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Do you know approximately what time you got there, Mr. Truly? To the best
of your recollection.
Mr. TRULY. 3 or 4 minutes after we reached the entrance, the walkway, we
stood on the steps 2 or 3 minutes, and then I don't believe we just gradually
moved out a bit.
And then when the policemen leading the motorcade came off of Main on to
Houston, we saw them coming, and then we just moved out a little farther to the
edge of the parkway.
Mr. BELIN. Did you notice any other company employees with you other than
Mr. Campbell at that time?
Mr. TRULY. Well, I did. I noticed several. Mrs. Reid was standing there
close. And it seemed like there were several of the other employees standing out
in front of the building. But I cannot--I think Bill Shelley was standing over
to my right as I faced the motorcade--somewheres in that area.
I noticed just before the motorcade passed there were, I believe, three
of our colored boys had come out and started up, and two of them came back. And
I didn't see them when the motorcade passed.
But they had started across Houston Street up Elm, and they came back
later on, and I think those were the ones that were two of them were the ones on
the fifth floor. Possibly they could not see over the crowd. They are short
boys. I wasn't doing too well at that, myself.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
What did you next see with reference to the motorcade?
Mr. TRULY. Do you mind me-
Mr. BELIN. Do you want to turn that over, sir? Will that be easier for
you?
Mr. TRULY. It might be. easier for the gentlemen when I point this out.
Now, what was the question?
Mr. BELIN. My question is what did you see with reference to the
motorcade?
Mr. TRULY. All right.
We saw the motorcycle escort come off of Main and turn onto Houston
Street.
Mr. BELIN. Main would be down here, and it would be coming off Houston,
heading towards the building?
Mr. TRULY. Headed towards the building.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Mr. TRULY. And it went on down this way. And immediately after--
Mr. BELIN. By "this way" you mean the street marked Parkway?
Mr. TRULY. I assume that is the underpass that you have marked Parkway.
Mr. BELIN. The street leading to the expressway, that diagonal street?
Mr. TRULY. That is right.
And the President's car following close behind came along at an average
speed of 10 or 15 miles an hour. It wasn't that much, because they were getting
ready to turn. And the driver of the Presidential car swung out too far to the
right, and he came almost within an inch of running into this little abutment
here, between Elm and the Parkway. And he slowed down perceptibly and pulled
back to the left to get over into the middle lane of the parkway. Not being
familiar with the street, he came too far out this way when he made his turn.
Mr. BELIN. He came too far to the north before he made his curve, and as
he curved--as he made his left turn from Houston onto the street leading to the
expressway, he almost hit this north curb?
Mr. TRULY. That is right. Just before he got to it, he had to almost
stop, to pull over to the left.
If he had maintained his speed, he would probably have hit this little
section here.
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Mr. Belin. All right.
Now, what is your best estimate of the speed as he started to go down the
street here marked Parkway?
Mr. TRULY. He picked up a little speed along here, and then seemed to
have fallen back into line, and I would say 10 or 12 miles an hour in this area.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Then what did you see happen?
Mr. TRULY. I heard an explosion, which I thought was a toy cannon or a
loud firecracker from west of the building. Nothing happened at this first
explosion. Everything was frozen. And immediately after two more explosions,
which I realized that I thought was a gun, a rifle of some kind.
The President's--I saw the President's car swerve to the left and stop
somewheres down in this area. It is misleading here. And that is the last I saw
of his ear, because this crowd, when the third shot rang out--there was a large
crowd all along this abutment here, this little wall, and there was some around
us in front--they began screaming and falling to the ground. And the people in
front of myself and Mr. Campbell surged back, either in terror or panic. They
must have seen this thing. I became separated from Mr. Campbell. They just
practically bore me back to the first step on the entrance of our building.
Mr. BELIN. When you saw the President's car seem to stop, how long did it
appear to stop?
Mr. TRULY. It would be hard to say over a second or two or something like
that. I didn't see I just saw it stop. I don't know. I didn't see it start up.
Mr. BELIN, Then you stopped looking at it, or you were distracted by
something else?
Mr. TRULY. Yes. The crowd in front of me kind of congealed around me and
bore me back through weight of numbers, and I lost sight of it.
I think there were a lot of people trying to get out of the way of
something. They didn't know what.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do or see?
Mr. TRULY. I heard a policeman in this area along here make a remark,
"Oh, goddam," or something like that. I just remember that. It wasn't
a motorcycle policeman. It was one of the Dallas policeman, I think-- words to
that effect.
I wouldn't know him. I just remember there was a policeman standing along
in this area about 7, 8, or 10 feet from me.
But as I came back here, and everybody. was screaming and hollering, just
moments later-I saw a young motorcycle policeman run up to the building, up the
steps to the entrance of our building. He ran right by me. And he was pushing
people out of the way. He pushed a number of people out of the way before he got
to me. I saw him coming through, I believe. As he ran up the stairway--I mean up
the steps, I was almost to the steps, I ran up and caught up with him. I believe
I caught up with him inside the lobby of the building, or possibly the front
steps. I don't remember that close. But I remember it occurred to me that this
man wants on top of the building. He doesn't know the plan of the floor.
And-that is-that just pepped in my mind, and I ran in with him. As we got in the
lobby, almost on the inside of the first floor, this policeman asked me where
the stairway is. And I said, "This way". And I ran diagonally across
to the northwest corner of the building.
Mr. BELIN. Now, let me, if I can--turning to Exhibit 362 again, I wonder
if you would, with this--we can first do it with this pen, if you would--trace
your route inside there. Point out the place inside the lobby where you talked
to the policeman, where he said "where is the stairway."
Mr. TRULY. I believe along right there.
Mr. BELIN. All right. Could you put a "T" on Exhibit 362, if
you would.
Mr. TRULY. I could be wrong, but I am almost positive that is the place.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Now--and this is inside the glass or plastic set of doors shown on
Exhibit 495, is that correct?
Mr. TRULY. That is correct.
Mr. BELIN. Now, he said to you what?
Mr. TRULY. Where is the stairway.
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Mr. BELIN. And what did you say to him?
Mr. TRULY. I said "This way."
Mr. BELIN. Now, I wonder if you would take this pen and show the route
that you took with the policeman, or take your own pen, if you would,
sir---starting from point "T" on Exhibit 362.
Mr. TRULY. I ran in front of him.
Mr. BELIN. You better mark on the exhibit, sir.
Mr. TRULY. Took this route. There is a swinging door and a counter, what
we call our will call counter right here.
Mr. BELIN. Is it here, or here?
Mr. TRULY. No, wait a minute.
There
right here. We came in this way.
Mr. BELIN. Do you still want to put point "T" up here?
Mr. TRULY. No. This was on the steps, wasn't it? This is where I am sure
he asked me.
Mr. BELIN. You better cross out the other one, then.
Mr. TRULY. I saw this thing here, and I thought it was that little
swinging door.
Mr. BELIN. That would be the main door? Now, you have point
"T."
Now,
will you trace the route from point "T"?
Mr. TRULY. We came through this door here. The policeman right behind me.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Mr. TRULY. This is a counter and this is a counter built in that cut
inside this is where our customers come that pick up books.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
When you are pointing to the counter on Exhibit 362, you are pointing to
a rectangle that appears to be located immediately to the west of the
glass--looks like a glass partition to your office, is that correct?
Mr. TRULY. That is right.
Mr. BELIN. You call that the will call counter?
Mr. TRULY. That is right.
Mr. BELIN. What happened when you got there?
Mr. TRULY. There is a little swinging door that swings in and out that we
have there. We never keep it locked. But on the bottom is a little bolt that you
can lock it to keep people from pulling it out or pushing it in. And this bolt
had slid out. It has done that on occasions. I started to run through this
little opening, and I ran into the door, and the bolt hung against the side of
the counter, and the policeman ran into my back. And so I just pulled it
back
and continued on through.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Now, the door didn't swing through. The bolt stuck. So you were stuck by
the door. The policeman ran into you. And then you had to stop and pull the door
back and go through it.
Mr. TRULY. That is right.
Mr. BELIN. Then where did you go? You might continue with your pen on
Exhibit 362, showing the route.
All right.
Now, you have cut sort of diagonally across towards the rear, and you
have come to the west elevator in the rear.
Mr. TRULY. That is right.
Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this, Mr. Truly. I note on Exhibit 362 right
where you came in there appears to be some stairs there. Why didn't you go up
those stairs, instead of running to the back?
Mr. TRULY. Those stairs only reached to the second floor, and they
wouldn't have any way of getting up to the top without going to the back
stairway.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Mr. TRULY. So this is the logical stairway that goes all the way to the
seventh floor.
Mr. BELIN. And you are pointing to the stairway in what would be the
northwest corner?
Mr. TRULY. That is right.
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Mr. BELIN. Now, you got to the elevator, and what did you do then?
Mr. TRULY. I looked up. This is two elevators in the same well. This
elevator over hero
Mr. BELIN. You are pointing to the west one?
Mr. TRULY. I am pointing to the west one. This elevator was on the fifth
floor. Also, the east elevator-- as far as I can tell--both of them were on the
fifth floor at that time.
This elevator will come down if the gates are down, and you push a
button.
Representative FORD. Which elevator is that?
Mr. TRULY. The west one. But the east one will not come down unless you
get on it and bring it down. You cannot call it if the gates are down.
Representative FORD. That is the east elevator?
Mr. TRULY. The east elevator?
There is a button and a little bell here. I pressed
Mr. BELIN. You might put a "B" on Exhibit 362 by the elevator
for "button."
Mr. TRULY. That is right on this surface. There is a little button. I
pressed the button and the elevator didn't move.
I called upstairs , "Turn loose the elevator."
Mr. BELIN. When you say call up, in what kind of a voice did you call?
Mr. TRULY. Real loud. I suppose in an excited voice. But loud enough that
anyone could have heard me if they had not been over stacking or making a little
noise. But I rang the bell and pushed this button.
Mr. BELIN. What did you call?
Mr. TRULY. I said, "Turn loose the elevator." Those boys
understand that language.
Mr. BELIN. What does that mean?
Mr. TRULY. That means if they have the gates up, they go pull the gates
down, and when you press the button, you can pull it down.
Mr. BELIN. And how many times did you yell that?
Mr. TRULY. Two times.
Mr. BELIN. After you had first pushed the button?
Mr. TRULY. That is right. I had pressed the button twice I believe, and
called up for the elevator twice.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? First of all, did the elevator come
down?
Mr. TRULY. It did not.
Mr. BELIN. All right. Then what did you do?
Mr. TRULY. I went up on a run up the stairway.
Mr. BELIN. Could you again follow--from Point B, could you show which way
you went? All right.
Mr. TRULY. What is this here?
Mr. BELIN. This is to show this is a stairway, and there is a stairway
above it, too. But you went up the stairs right here?
Mr. TRULY. That is right.
Mr. BELIN. Okay. And where was this officer at that time?
Mr. TRULY. This officer was right behind me and coming up the stairway.
By the time I reached the second floor, the officer was a little further
behind me than he was on the first floor, I assume--I know.
Mr. BELIN. Was he a few feet behind you then?
Mr. TRULY. He was a few feet. It is hard for me to tell. I ran right on
around to my left, started to continue on up the stairway to the third floor,
and on up.
Mr. BELIN. Now when you say you ran on to your left, did you look
straight ahead to see whether there was anyone in that area, or were you intent
on just going upstairs?
Mr. TRULY. If there had been anybody in that area, I would have seen him
on the outside. But I was content--I was trying to show the officer the pathway
up, where the elevators--I mean where the stairways continued.
Mr. BELIN. Now, I hand you what has been marked Exhibit 497.
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(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 497, for
identification.)
Mr. BELIN. This is entitled "Texas School Book Depository, Diagram
of Second Floor."
You can sit down, if you would, please, Mr. Truly.
And would you, on Exhibit 497, if you would kind of take an arrow to show
the route that you took going out-or up from the first floor, and starting up
the stairs towards the third.
Now, you marked that with pen.
Could you put a "T" on that, if you would, please?
Now, there appears to be some kind of a vestibule or hall of one kind or
another with the No. 22 in a circle on it, on Exhibit 497. Is this completely
clear, or are there books there from time to time?
Mr. TRULY. No; that is always clear. There is a few cartons of office
stock, invoices, blank invoices and stationery and stuff up and down here. But
there is always a pathway. There is a post, right about where this 22 is. You
can always clear it and come by there. I don't think there would ever be stock
here that would obstruct your view of the other area across there.
Mr. BELIN. Now, I hand you what has been marked Commission Exhibit 498.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 498 for
identification.)
Mr. BELIN. I ask you to state, if you know what this is.
Mr. TRULY. Yes. This is the vestibule, when you first come up the stairs
on the second floor--this is what you will find right there.
Mr. BELIN. Now, as you take a look at the picture Exhibit 498, is this a
post immediately to the left side of the picture, to the extreme left of the
picture?
Mr. TRULY. No.
Mr. BELIN. What is this to the extreme left? Is that the wall for the
staircase?
Mr. TRULY. Yes; there is an opening on this side, and the staircase is
back over here. This picture is just part of this vestibule out here.
Mr. BELIN. And what direction does the camera appear to be pointing, or
what is shown there?
Mr. TRULY. It appears to be pointing east.
Mr. BELIN. And I see a door with a glass in it.
Could you show where on this diagram Exhibit 497 this door with the glass
is?
Do you see a number with an arrow pointing to the door?
Mr. TRULY. That is it.
Mr. BELIN. What number is that?
Mr. TRULY. It is number 23.
Mr. BELIN. All right. Number 23, the arrow points to the door that has
the glass in it.
Now, as you raced around, how far did you start up the stairs towards the
third floor there?
Mr. TRULY. I suppose I was up two or three steps before I realized the
officer wasn't following me.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?
Mr. TRULY. I came back to the second floor landing.
Mr. BELIN. What did you see?
Mr. TRULY. I heard some voices, or a voice, coming from the area of the
lunchroom, or the inside vestibule, the area of 24.
Mr. BELIN. All right. And I see that there appears to be on the second
floor diagram, a room marked lunchroom.
Mr. TRULY. That is right.
Mr. BELIN. What did you do then?
Mr. TRULY. I ran over and looked in this door No. 23.
Mr. BELIN. Through the glass, or was the door open?
Mr. TRULY. I don't know. I think I opened the door. I feel like I did. I
don't remember.
Mr. BELIN. It could have been open or it could have been closed, you do
not remember?
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Mr. TRULY. The chances are it was closed.
Mr. BELIN. You thought you opened it?
Mr. TRULY. I think I opened it. I opened the door back and leaned in this
way.
Mr. BELIN. What did you see?
Mr. TRULY. I saw the officer almost directly in the doorway of the
lunch-room facing Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mr. BELIN. And where was Lee Harvey Oswald at the time you saw him?
Mr. TRULY. He was at the front of the lunchroom, not very far inside he
was just inside the lunchroom door.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Mr. TRULY. 2 or 3 feet, possibly.
Mr. BELIN. Could you put an "O" where you saw Lee Harvey
Oswald?
All right.
You have put an "O" on Exhibit 497.
What did you see or hear the officer say or do?
Mr. TRULY. When I reached there, the officer had his gun pointing at
Oswald. The officer turned this way and said, "This man work here?"
And I said, "Yes."
Mr. BELIN. And then what happened?
Mr. TRULY. Then we left Lee Harvey Oswald immediately and continued to
run up the stairways until we reached the fifth floor.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Let me ask you this now. How far was the officer's gun from Lee Harvey
Oswald when he asked the question?
Mr. TRULY. It would be hard for me to say, but it seemed to me like it
was almost touching him.
Mr. BELIN. What portion of his body?
Mr. TRULY. Towards the middle portion of his body.
Mr. BELIN. Could you see Lee Harvey Oswald's hands?
Mr. TRULY. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Could you see--
Mr. TRULY. I am sure I could, yes. I could see most of him, because I was
looking in the room on an angle, and they were this way.
Mr. BELIN. When you say you were looking in the room on an angle--
Mr. TRULY. What I mean--this door offsets the lunchroom door.
Mr. BELIN. By this door, you mean door No. 23 is at an angle to door No.
24?
Mr. TRULY. Yes. One this way and the other one is this way.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Could you see whether or not Lee Harvey Oswald had anything in either
hand?
Mr. TRULY. I noticed nothing in either hand.
Mr. BELIN. Did you see both of his hands?
Mr. TRULY. I am sure I did. I could be wrong, but I am almost sure. I
did.
Mr. BELIN. About how long did Officer Baker stand there with Lee Harvey
Oswald after you saw them?
Mr. TRULY. He left him immediately after I told him--after he asked me,
does this man work here. I said, yes. The officer left him immediately.
Mr. BELIN. Did you hear Lee Harvey Oswald say anything?
Mr. TRULY. Not a thing.
Mr. BELIN. Did you see any expression on his face? Or weren't you paying
attention?
Mr. TRULY. He didn't seem to be excited or overly afraid or anything. He
might have been a bit startled, like I might have been if somebody confronted
me. But I cannot recall any change in expression of any kind on his face.
Mr. BELIN. Now, I hand you what the reporter has marked as Exhibit 499.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 499 for
identification.)
Mr. BELIN. I ask you to state if you know what this is.
Mr. TRULY. That is the interior of the lunchroom.
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Mr. BELIN. And what direction does the camera appear to be pointing on
Exhibit 499?
Mr. TRULY. East.
Mr. BELIN. And does this appear to be the doorway in the very foreground
of the picture?
Mr. TRULY. I believe so.
Representative FORD. Which doorway would that be?
Mr. TRULY. Number 24. The camera seems to be right in the doorway when
that picture was taken. You cannot see the doorway very well.
Mr. DULLES. May I ask you a question?
Do you know why it was that the officer didn't follow you up the stairs,
but instead was distracted, as it were, and went with Lee Harvey Oswald into the
lunchroom?
Mr. TRULY. I never knew until a day or two ago that he said he saw a
movement, saw a man going away from him.
Mr. DULLES. As he was going up the stairs?
Mr. TRULY. As he got to the second floor landing. While I was going
around, he saw a movement.
Mr. DULLES. And he followed that?
Mr. TRULY. That is right.
Representative FORD. He saw a movement in the lunchroom or a man go into
the lunchroom?
Mr. TRULY. He saw the back of a man inside the door--I suppose door No.
23.
But that isn't my statement. I didn't learn about that, you see, until
the other day.
Mr. BELIN. I believe we have some additional pictures of the lunchroom.
Perhaps we can just briefly identify them.
Here is a picture which has been marked Commission Exhibit 500.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 500 for
identification.)
Mr. BELIN. I will ask you to state what this is.
Mr. TRULY. This is a picture of the lunchroom.
Mr. BELIN. What direction is the camera facing there?
Mr. TRULY. East.
Mr. BELIN. What about Exhibit 501?
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 501 for
identification.)
Mr. TRULY. This picture is part of the lunchroom. And I would say the
camera must be facing northeast.
Mr. BELIN. What about Exhibit 502?
Mr. TRULY. This is the lunchroom looking west. Northwest, I would say.
Mr. BELIN. Is this door clear to the left of the picture, the door in
which you saw Officer Baker standing when he was talking to Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Now, Mr. Truly, you then went up to the third floor with
Officer Baker.
Mr. TRULY. We continued on until we reached the fifth floor.
Mr. BELIN. Now, by the way, I have used the name Officer Baker. When did
you find out what his name was?
Mr. TRULY. I never did know for sure what his name was until he was
down
to the building and you were interviewing him last week.
Mr. BELIN. This was on Friday, March 20th
Mr. TRULY. I had heard his name was Baker or Burton or various other
names.
But
I never did try to find out what his name was.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 502 for
identification.)
Mr. BELIN. Now, Mr. Truly, did you notice when you got to the third
floor--first of all. On the second floor, was there any elevator there?
Mr. TRULY. No, sir.
Mr. BELIN. What about the third floor?
Mr. TRULY. No, sir.
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Mr. BELIN. Fourth floor?
Mr. TRULY. No, I am sure not.
Mr. BELIN. What about the fifth floor?
Mr. TRULY. When we reached the fifth floor, the east elevator was on that
floor.
Mr. BELIN. What about the west elevator? Was that on the fifth floor?
Mr. TRULY. No, sir. I am sure it wasn't, or I could not have seen the
east elevator.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Mr. TRULY. I am almost positive that it wasn't there.
Mr. DULLES. You said you released the elevator and let it go down?
Mr. TRULY. No; the east elevator was the one on the fifth floor.
Mr. BELIN. Now, Exhibit 487 appears to be a diagram of the fifth floor.
As I understand it, you might mark on that diagram the way you went from the
stairs over to the east elevator.
Mr. TRULY. Well, I started around towards the stairway, and then I noted
that this east elevator was there. So I told the officer, "Come on, here is
an elevator," and then we ran down to the east side, and got on the east
elevator.
Mr. BELIN. Could you put the letter "T" at the end of that
line, please?
All right.
Now, where did you go with the east elevator, to what floor?
Mr. TRULY. We rode the east elevator to the seventh floor.
Mr. BELIN. Did you stop at the sixth floor at all?
Mr. TRULY. No, sir.
Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got to the seventh floor?
Mr. TRULY. We ran up a little stairway that leads out through a little
penthouse on to the roof.
Mr. BELIN. What did you do on the roof?
Mr. TRULY. We ran immediately to the west side of the building. There is
a wall around the building that you cannot see over without getting your foot
between the mortar of the stones and, or some such toehold. We did that and
looked over the ground and the railroad tracks below. There we saw many officers
and a lot of spectators, people running up and down.
Mr. BELIN. Did the officer say to you why he wanted to go up to the roof?
Mr. TRULY. No. At that time, he didn't.
Mr. BELIN. Did he ever prior to meeting you again on March 20th tell you
why he wanted to go on the roof?
Mr. TRULY. No, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Where did you think the shots came from?
Mr. TRULY. I thought the shots came from the vicinity of the railroad or
the WPA project, behind the WPA project west of the building.
Mr. BELIN. Did you have any conversation with the officer that you can
remember? About where you thought the shots came from?
Mr. TRULY. Yes. When--some time in the course, I believe, after we
reached the roof, the officer looked down over the boxcars and the railroad
tracks and the crowd below. Then he looked around the edge of the roof for any
evidence of anybody being there. And then looked up at the runways and the big
sign on the-roof.
He saw nothing.
He came over. And some time about then I said, "Officer, I
think"--let's back up.
I believe the officer told me as we walked down into the seventh floor,
"Be careful, this man will blow your head off."
And I told the officer that I didn't feel like the shots came from the
building.
I said, "I think we are wasting our time up here," or words to
that effect, "I don't believe these shots came from the building."
Mr. BELIN. Did he say anything to that at all?
Mr. TRULY. I don't recall exactly what he said. I believe he said, yes,
or somebody said they did, or some such thing as that. I don't remember. I have
heard so many things since, you know.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Now, Mr. Truly, on March 20th, you and I visited about this particular
incident
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you
have related about the running into the building and up the stairs with this
officer, is that correct?
Mr. TRULY. That is correct.
Mr. BELIN. And as a matter of fact you and Officer Baker and I tried to
reconstruct the incident in an effort to determine how long it took you to do
all this, is that correct?
Mr. TRULY. That is correct.
Mr. BELIN. And do you remember watching me getting over with Officer
Baker in front of the sheriff's office on Market Street--pardon me Houston
Street, with a stopwatch?
Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. And then you saw Officer Baker race his motorcycle over and
come in front of the building, and then you ran in with him, is that correct?
Mr. TRULY. That is correct.
Mr. BELIN. And then what is the fact as to whether or not you and Officer
Baker and I recreated the incident as you have testified to here, going into the
lobby with the conversation you had with Officer Baker, and running into that
swinging door, and going back to the elevator and pushing the elevator button,
and then calling or yelling twice for the elevator to come down, and then coming
up the stairs to the second floor. Do you remember that?
Mr. TRULY. I remember that.
Mr. BELIN. When we recreated that incident, did we walk or run?
Mr. TRULY. We walked. We trotted.
Mr. BELIN. We trotted.
Did we get out of breath, do you remember?.
Mr. TRULY. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Did we go at about the speed that you feel you went on that
day with Officer Baker?
Mr. TRULY. I think so--which was a little more than a trot, I would say.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember offhand what the stopwatch timed us at--I
think we did it twice, is that correct?
Mr. TRULY. No, sir--not from the time that he got on his motorcycle, I
don't remember.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Mr. TRULY. But I was thinking it was somewheres under 2 minutes. Between
a minute and a half and 2 minutes.
Mr. BELIN. Officer Baker, I think, will be able to testify to that in the
morning.
Representative FORD. But in reconstructing the incident, you went more or
less at a similar pace, took about the same time you did on November 22d?
Mr. TRULY. As far as I can tell; yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. You ran at about the same speed, do you believe?
Mr. TRULY. Yes; I believe so.
We tried to--we had a few people we had to push our way through to start
in the building the other time, and possibly didn't run quite so fast at first.
Mr. BELIN. Would you say that again?
Mr. TRULY. I said when the officer and I ran in, we were shouldering
people aside in front of the building, so-we possibly were slowed a little bit
more coming in than we were when he and I came in March 20th. I don't believe
so. But it wouldn't be enough to matter there.
Mr. BELIN. Would you say that the reconstruction that we did on March
20th was a minimum or a maximum time?
Mr. TRULY. Oh, I would say that would be the minimum time.
Mr. BELIN. Mr. Truly, when you took the elevator to the fifth--from the
fifth to the seventh floor, that east elevator did you see the west elevator at
all as you passed the sixth floor, when you got to the seventh floor?
Mr. TRULY. No, sir; because I could not see the west elevator while
operating the east elevator.
Mr. BELIN. You mean because you were not looking at it, or you just
couldn't see it?
Mr. TRULY. Well, the back of the east elevator is solid metal, and if I
passed--yes; I could. I beg your pardon.
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I could see it from the fifth floor. I didn't notice it anywheres up
there. I wasn't really looking for it, however.
Mr. BELIN. Now, after you got--when did you notice that west elevator
next? If you know.
Mr. TRULY. I don't know.
Mr. BELIN. I believe you said when you first saw the elevators, you
thought they were both on the same floor, the fifth floor.
Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Then how do you explain that when you got to the fifth floor,
one of the elevators was not there?
Mr. TRULY. I don't know, sir. I think one of my boys was getting stock
off the fifth floor on the back side, and probably moved the elevator at the
time somewheres between the time we were running upstairs. And I would not have
remembered that. I mean I wouldn't have really heard that, with the commotion we
were making running up the enclosed stairwell.
Mr. BELIN. Did you see anyone on the fifth floor?
Mr. TRULY. Yes. When coming down I am sure I saw Jack Dougherty getting
some books off the fifth floor.
Now, this is so dim in my mind that I could be making a mistake.
But I believe that he was getting some stock, that he had already gone
back to work, and that he was getting some stock off the fifth floor.
Mr. BELIN. You really don't know who was operating the elevator, then, is
that correct?
Mr. TRULY. That is correct.
Mr. BELIN. What is your best guess?
Mr. TRULY. My best guess is that Jack Dougherty was.
Mr. BELIN. Now, after you got down from the seventh floor, you then went
down to the sixth floor with Officer Baker?
Mr. TRULY. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Did he look around on the sixth floor at all or not?
Mr. TRULY. Just before we got on the elevator on the seventh floor,
Officer Baker ran over and looked in a little room on the seventh floor, and
glanced around on that floor, which is open, and it didn't take much of a
search. And then we reached the sixth floor. I stopped. He glanced over the
sixth floor quickly.
Mr. BELIN. Could you see the southeast corner of the sixth floor from
there?
Mr. TRULY. I don't think so; no, sir. You could not.
Mr. BELIN. Then what?
Mr. TRULY. Then we continued on down, and we saw officers on the fourth
floor.
I don't recall that we stopped any more until we reached the first floor.
But I do recall there was an officer on the fourth floor, by the time we got
down that far.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
And then you got down eventually to the first floor?
Mr. TRULY. That is right.
Mr. BELIN. About how long after these shots do you think it took you to
go all the way up and look around the roof and come all the way down again?
Mr. TRULY. Oh, we might have been gone between 5 and 10 minutes. It is
hard to say.
Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got back to the first floor, or what
did you see?
Mr. TRULY. When I got back to the first floor, at first I didn't see
anything except officers running around, reporters in the place. There was a
regular madhouse.
Mr. BELIN. Had they sealed off the building yet, do you know?
Mr. TRULY. I am sure they had.
Mr. BELIN. Then what?
Mr. TRULY. Then in a few minutes--it could have been moments or minutes
at a time like that--I noticed some of my boys were over in the west corner of
the shipping department, and there were several officers over there taking their
names and addresses, and so forth.
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There were other officers in other parts of the building taking other
employees, like office people's names. I noticed that Lee Oswald was not among
these boys.
So I picked up the telephone and called Mr. Aiken down at the other
warehouse who keeps our application blanks. Back up there.
First I mentioned to Mr. Campbell--I asked Bill Shelley if he had seen
him, he looked around and said no.
Mr. BELIN. When you asked Bill Shelley if he had seen whom?
Mr. TRULY. Lee Oswald. I said, "Have you seen him around
lately," and he said no.
So Mr. Campbell is standing there, and I said, "I have a boy over
here missing. I don't know whether to report it or not." Because I had
another one or two out then. I didn't know whether they were all there or not.
He said, "What do you think"? And I got to thinking. He said,
"Well, we better do it anyway." It was so quick after that.
So I picked the phone up then and called Mr. Aiken, at the warehouse, and
got the boy's name and general description and telephone number and address at
Irving.
Mr. BELIN. Did you have any address for him in Dallas, or did you just
have an address in Irving?
Mr. TRULY. Just the address in Irving. I knew nothing of this Dallas
address. I didn't know he was living away from his family.
Mr. BELIN. Now, would that be the address and the description as shown on
this application, Exhibit 496?
Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Did you ask for the name and addresses of any other employees
who might have been missing?
Mr. TRULY. No, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Why didn't you ask for any other employees?
Mr. TRULY. That is the only one that I could be certain right then was
missing.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do after you got that information?
Mr. TRULY. Chief Lumpkin of the Dallas Police Department was standing a
few feet from me. I told Chief Lumpkin that I had a boy missing over here
"I don't know whether it amounts to anything or not." And I gave him
his description. And he says, "Just a moment. We will go tell Captain
Fritz."
Mr. BELIN. All right. And then what happened?
Mr. TRULY. So Chief Lumpkin had several officers there that he was
talking to, and I assumed that he gave him some instructions of some nature I
didn't hear it. And then he turned to me and says, "Now we will go up
So we got on one of the elevators, I don't know which, and rode up to the
sixth floor. I didn't know Captain Fritz was on the sixth floor. And he was over
in the northwest corner of the building.
Mr. BELIN. By the stairs there?
Mr. TRULY. Yes; by the stairs.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Mr. TRULY. And there were other officers with him. Chief Lumpkin stepped
over and told Captain Fritz that I had something that I wanted to tell him.
Mr. BELIN. All right. And then what happened
Mr. TRULY. So Captain Fritz left the men he was with and walked over
about 8 or 10 feet and said, "What is it, Mr. Truly," or words to that
effect.
And I told him about this boy missing and gave him his address and
telephone number and general description. And he says, "Thank you, Mr.
Truly. We will take care of it.
And I went back downstairs in a few minutes.
There was a reporter followed me away from that spot, and asked me who
Oswald was. I told the reporter, "You must have ears like a bird, or
something. I don't want to say anything about a boy I don't know anything about.
This is a terrible thing." Or words to that effect.
I said, "Don't bother me. Don't mention the name. Let's find
something out."
So I went back downstairs with Chief Lumpkin.
Mr. BELIN. When you got on the sixth floor, did you happen to go over to
the southeast corner of the sixth floor at about that time or not?
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Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I sure didn't.
Mr. BELIN. When did you get over to the southeast corner of the sixth
floor?
Mr. TRULY. That I can't answer. I don't remember when I went over there.
It was sometime before I learned that they had found either the rifle or the
spent shell cases. It could have been at the time I went up and told them about
Lee Harvey Oswald being missing. I cannot remember. But I didn't know it. I
didn't see them find them, and I didn't know at the time I don't know how long
they had the things.
Mr. BELIN. There has been some-testimony here, Mr. Truly, about some bins
for storing books on the fifth floor near the stairway. I am going to hand you
an exhibit which has been marked as Commission Exhibit 490, and ask you to
state, if you know--were you there when these pictures were taken on the fifth
floor? On Friday, March 20th?
The CHAIRMAN. The fifth floor?
Mr. BELIN. The fifth floor; yes, sir.
Mr. TRULY. Yes; I was, I believe. Some of them I may not have been when
all of them were taken. I was not there when this picture was taken, no, sir.
Mr. BELIN. You are familiar with those bins on the fifth floor, are you
not?
Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. How long have those bins by the stairway been there?
Mr. TRULY. Well, it would be hard for me to say, but they have been
there, I suppose, almost from the time we moved in--nearly 2 years. They were
there at the time of November 22.
Mr. BELIN. On Commission Exhibit 487, the line marked "W", will
you state whether or not this appears to be the approximate line where the bins
are located?
Mr. TRULY. Yes, it would be.
Mr. BELIN. Can you see over those bins?
Mr. TRULY. You cannot.
Mr. BELIN. I mean when you are at the window--say you are in the
southwest corner.
Mr. Truly. No, sir; you cannot. They obscure the stairway.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Now, there was a floor laying project that was going along on the sixth
floor at about the time of November 22, is that correct?
Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Handing you Commission Exhibit 483, could you state, if you
know, approximately where on the sixth floor they were laying new plywood floor
around November 22d?
Mr. TRULY. This is it
Mr. BELIN. This is north right here?
Mr. TRULY. They were in this area right here.
Mr. BELIN. Well, there is a blank line that appears to have a
"W" at one end or the other. Would that be a fairly accurate?
Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir; in the west end of the building.
Mr. BELIN. Where they were laying the floor?
Mr. TRULY. That is where they were laying the floor.
Mr. BELIN. Now, when you were--were you familiar with the fact that they
had moved books in the process of laying that floor?
Mr. TRULY. I knew they had to. I didn't know where they moved them
particularly until that time. I don't suppose I had been up on that floor in
several days.
Mr. BELIN. By that time, you mean November 22?
Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Where did it appear that they had moved them?
Mr. TRULY. They moved a long row of books down parallel to the windows on
the south side, following the building, and had quite a lot of cartons on the
north--let's see-- the southeast corner of the building.
Mr. BELIN. Sometime on November 22d did you go to the southeast corner of
the building?
Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.
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Mr. BELIN. Did you notice anything particularly about the books that were
in the southeast corner?
Mr. TRULY. I didn't at that time with the exception of a few cartons that
were moved. But, I did not know any pattern that the boys used in putting these
cartons up there. They were just piled up there more or less at that time
Mr. BELIN. Well, handing you what has been marked as Exhibit 503, which
is a picture, does this appear to portray the southeast corner of the sixth
floor as you saw it on November 22d?
Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit. No. 503 for
identification.)
Mr. BELIN. Now, I notice some rows of books along the east wall. Did
those books go all the way to the corner or not?
Mr. TRULY. They did not in front of the window extend very much in
height, but they did go all the way on the floor to the corner of the building.
Mr. BELIN. Was this prior to November 22d?
Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. When you got there on November 22d, did those books still go
to the corner of the east wall of the sixth floor?
Mr. TRULY. No, sir. There were several cartons that had been moved out of
the corner and apparently placed on top of the cartons next to them in front of
the east window -
Mr. BELIN. Do you have any books that are called Rolling Readers?
Mr. TRULY. Yes sir.
Mr. BELIN. Do you know what floor those Rolling Readers are usually kept
on?
Mr. TRULY. The first floor and the sixth floor. Most of them are on the
sixth floor.
Mr. BELIN. Do you know where on the sixth floor the Rolling Readers are?
Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Approximately where?
Mr. TRULY. They were I would say they were thirty or forty feet from the
corner. They were not in the area that the boys moved books from.
Mr. BELIN. Well, handing you Exhibit 483, I wonder if you would mark with
your pen the letters "RR" for Rolling Readers. Would there have been
any occasion at all to move any Rolling Readers from the area you have marked on
Exhibit 483 to the southeast corner of the sixth floor?
Mr. TRULY. No, sir; because the boys had not finished much of the ply
wood work, and they would-- none of that stock was moved at that time for any
purpose.
Mr. BELIN. Are the Rolling Reader cartons average size or small size or
large size?
Mr. TRULY. They are much smaller than the average size cartons on that
floor.
Mr. McCLOY. Do you in, tend to offer all of these exhibits en bloc later
on?
Mr. BELIN. Yes, sir.
Now, handing you Commission Exhibit 504, there appear to be some boxes
near a window on a floor of your building. And I note that on two of the boxes
they are marked "Ten Rolling Readers." Are those the Rolling Reader
cartons that you referred to, with the letters "RR" on Commission
Exhibit 483
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 504 for
identification.)
Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir; that is right.
Representative FORD. The Rolling Reader boxes were not ordinarily in that
southeast corner?
Mr. TRULY. No, sir. That was not the place for them. They were 40 feet or
so away.
Representative FORD. May I ask--the job that Oswald had, how did you
designate it?
Mr. TRULY. Well, he filled orders.
Representative FORD. He was an order filler?
Mr. TRULY. Order filler.
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Representative FORD. Do you keep records of the orders that are filled by
each order filler every day?
Mr. TRULY. Not every day; no, sir. Occasionally we would double check on
the employees, or the checker would count up the number and give me the number
each employee filled in that clay, or several days in succession for a whole
week.
Representative FORD. Would you know what orders Oswald filled November
22d?.
Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I would not.
Representative FORD. You would have no way of checking that?
Mr. TRULY. No. They would have been some orders that he filled the 21st
that were not checked and out of the house on the 22d. And I could not tell how
many he filled or when he filled his orders, no, sir.
Representative FORD. When an order filler fills an order, does he make
his initial or mark on--
Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir; he does. Up there where it says "L", which
is layout, he puts his number, and then the checker puts his number under
"C" when he checks the order and sees that it is all right, and sends
it on for packing.
Representative FORD. Well, it would seem to me that every order that was
filled on a particular day by an order filler could be identified as to the
individual
Mr. TRULY. You see, we don't always get out our orders the same day they
are shipped. The order fillers fill lots of orders, and they are filling orders
on up to quitting time in the afternoon, and those wouldn't go out until the
next day, or sometime, if they get ahead of the checker. They don't put the date
on them when they fill them.
Representative FORD. What I am trying to find out--is there any way to
trace by the orders that were filled by Oswald on the morning of November 22d as
to whether or not in the process of filling orders he was taken to the sixth
floor?
Mr. TRULY. No, sir; we could not tell whether he fired any orders that
might be dated November 22d-- might have been filled--if they were dated
November 22d and had Oswald's number on it, we would know that he filled those
on November 22d. But if they were billed and dated on the 20th and 21st, and
there was a number of those filled, we could not tell how many filled on the
22d.
Representative FORD. Have you ever gone back through your orders for
the--
Mr. TRULY. No, sir.
Representative FORD. Just to take a survey?
Mr. TRULY. We have thousands and thousands of accounts, and they run from
A to Z alphabetically in our files. We would have to take we would have to go
through every invoice in each file, from A to Z, in order to find any orders he
might have filled on that day. And it would he hard to prove that he filled them
on that date because, unless we found one that had his number on it and was
dated November 22d--because we know he wasn't there after that--but if it was
dated November 21st, he could easily-have filled a good number of those orders
that morning of the 22d. But we could not tell whether he filled them the 21st
or the 22d.
Mr. BELIN. Mr. Truly, in line with Congressman Ford's questions, was
there ever a clipboard found in your building at all?
Mr. TRULY. Yes sir. Sometime later there was a clipboard found that had
two or three orders on it.
Mr. BELIN. What were those orders dated?
Mr. TRULY. I don't remember, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember where the clipboard was found?
Mr. TRULY. I later learned it was found up on the sixth floor, near the
stairway, behind some cartons. I do not remember just exactly how many orders
were on it, but I think it was only two or three.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember who found it?
Mr. TRULY. A boy by the name of Frankie Kaiser.
Mr. BELIN. Is he still one of your employs?
Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.
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Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether this was ever identified as having ever
belonged to any particular employee of yours?
Mr. TRULY. Well, he brought the clipboard to Bill Shelley and told him
about it, and he said, "This is an old clipboard I used, to use. This is
the one that Oswald was using." It was a kind of homemade affair.
Mr. BELIN. When you say he brought it to Bill Shelley, who are you
referring to?
Mr. TRULY. I am referring to Frankie Kaiser who brought the clipboard
with the orders downstairs and told Bill Shelley that he had found Oswald's
clipboard with some orders on it.
Mr. BELIN. Had those orders ever been filled or not?
Mr. TRULY. No, sir. You see, when they fill the orders, they take them
off the clipboard. They may have 25 on the clipboard, and after a while they
will have 15 or 10 or something.
Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether or not those orders were ever eventually
filled that were found on the clipboard?
Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir; they were filled.
Mr. BELIN. What did you do with the clipboard and the order blanks that
were on there?
Mr. TRULY. I think someone else filled the order blanks and the clipboard
lay around there for a while until it was mentioned. I don't recall what
happened to it. At the time nobody considered it of too much significance, I
suppose that the boy was just filling orders up there and he had just thrown his
clipboard over. I believe that someone from a government agency either got the
clip-board or looked at it. I have this thing all mixed up. It hasn't been very
long ago, you know, about the clipboard. I don't know the solution of it. They
were trying to identify this clipboard just a short while ago for someone the
FBI or the Secret Service, or it could be you, could it?
Mr. BELIN. No, sir.
Mr. TRULY. Just shortly before you.
Mr. BELIN. Well, let me ask you this question?
Are there any ways in which your orders are posted that show anything
along the lines that Congressman Ford suggested as to who might fill an order or
when an order would be posted? In other words, if you come to an order and you
see that the order is dated maybe November 21st, but you do not know whether it
was filled on November 21st or November 22d, would your posting system of
entries on your ledger or journal in any way show when it was filled
Mr. TRULY. No, sir. The date that we go by is the date the checker checks
the order, and then he puts the date stamp on it. He puts it over on the table
in a little conveyor belt, and the boys wrap it. When he separates the packing
list and the invoice itself ---he puts the packing list and the label with the
order. Then he dates the invoice as of that date, and it goes upstairs to be
matched with the other copies, and then charged to the customer.
Mr. BELIN. Well, you mentioned earlier that periodically your checkers
get a check to ascertain how many orders were filled by the various employees.
Do you know of any such check made on the morning of November 22d?
Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I do not recall having made a check in several days
before that. We would usually run a check of errors for a week, and then we
would run a check occasionally of orders filled. And checking on the errors the
various boys made maybe we have an unusual number for us of teachers writing in
saying that they got the wrong book. So we try to check and see which one of
these boys possibly was making these errors.
Mr. BELIN. Is it your testimony that you do not recall any check being
made on November 22d, or you are sure there was no check on November 22d?
Mr. TRULY. There was no check that I recall. And I am sure there wasn't.
(At this point, The Chairman left the hearing room.)
Representative FORD. Could you tell us the approximate date that this
individual found the clipboard and brought it to your attention?
Mr. TRULY. No, sir.
Representative FORD. Was it a few days after the assassination, or
several weeks?
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Mr. TRULY. I think it was just a few days afterward because now, we would
have to check upstairs. If these orders are not filled and processed and gone
upstairs and matched with the copies in several days there, then we go looking
for the order like the boys missed them. We have copies in the office, and
they
do not come through in a reasonable time, we think that someone has lost some
orders, and we get to checking them. If we cannot find them, we have to
duplicate the orders.
Representative FORD. In other words, if 2 weeks had passed without the
order being filled according to your records, you would have instituted a more
thorough search to find out where the unfilled order blank was.
Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir--less than that, I would say, because we do not---our
customers would probably write to us before then, if they did not receive it.
But the girls on it--usually 3 or 4 days, if those orders have not cleared, they
come to check about them, to see if we are holding one back because we do not
have the stock, or if we have lost it, the boys have lost it.
(At this point, The Chairman entered the hearing room.)
Representative FORD. Who is the man who brought the clipboard to you?
Mr. TRULY. Bill Shelley called my attention to it. At that time I do not
recall anything being done except maybe one of the boys filling the orders and
just forgetting about that part of--
Representative FORD. To your best recollection, who gave the clipboard to
Bill Shelley?
Mr. TRULY. Frankie Kaiser.
Representative FORD. Was he an employee of the Texas School Book
Depository?
Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.
Representative FORD. Do you know generally where Kaiser found the
clipboard?
Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.
Representative FORD. Can you point it out to us on one of the exhibits?
Mr. BELIN. The diagram of the sixth floor has been marked as Exhibit No.
483. Perhaps you can mark on Exhibit No. 483 with the letter "O" where
you think the clipboard was found.
I might at this point on the record say for the Commission that Exhibit
506 purports to be the position of the clipboard when it was discovered--the
cupboard is circled, and the number on the picture, on Exhibit 506, is numbered
36, and on the Exhibit 483 appears at the end of the arrow with the number 36 on
it, which is near where Mr. Truly put his "C". And the number 35 on
that same exhibit--the number 35 will be shown tomorrow to be the position of
the rifle when it was discovered.
Representative FORD. And 36 is the position of the clipboard?
Mr. BALL. I don't think you can take that as evidence.
Mr. BELIN. This is not evidence. This is just background.
Mr. BALL. This is really an offer of proof on our part. That is the most
you can consider it--because we intend to take the deposition of Kaiser who
found the clipboard.
Representative FORD. Is there someone here, the staff or Mr. Truly, who
knows approximately when the clipboard was found?
Mr. BELIN. Yes, sir. I can give you that date in about one minute.
According to our records, Frankie Kaiser, when interviewed on December 2d, said
that on the morning of December 2d he found a clipboard which he had made and
which he had turned over to Lee Harvey Oswald with orders. And we have a list of
the orders also in one of the Commission documents. It is Document 7, page 381.
But we are going to have to actually take the deposition of Mr. Kaiser,
which we will do when we go to Dallas next week or the week after, or whenever
we get to him.
Representative FORD. Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Representative FORD. Back on the record.
Mr. BELIN. Three more pictures, Mr. Truly.
I hand you what the reporter has marked as Exhibit 505.
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(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 505 for
identification.)
I ask you to state if this appears to be the stairway leading from the
second to the third floor, or can't you tell?
Mr. TRULY. I believe so; yes.
Mr. BELIN. And that is the stairway that you went up two or three steps
before you came down to get Officer Baker?
Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Now, I note with regard to the floor plan on the second floor
that when you want to get to the lunchroom from the elevator, if you want to get
to the lunchroom from the west elevator you have to walk-in the area through
that door marked number 23. Is that correct?
Mr. TRULY. That's right.
Mr. BELIN. If you want to get there from the east elevator, what do you
do?
Mr. TRULY. Well, there is a side door, a north door, coming into the
lunch-room that they can come through.
Mr. BELIN. Does that north door appear on Exhibit 501?
Mr. TRULY. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. That appears to be located east of the Coca Cola machine, is
that correct?
Mr. TRULY. That is correct.
Mr. BELIN. Now, if someone wanted to take an elevator and get off on the
second floor, and go through the back door to get to the lunchroom, would there
be any way for that elevator to leave the second floor other than for someone to
get back on that east elevator and personally operate it?
Mr. TRULY. No, sir.
Mr. BELIN. In other words, the east elevator you have to actually have an
operator on it and it cannot be moved by just pushing a button?
Mr. TRULY. That's right.
Mr. BELIN. One other question. Just what are Rolling Readers? Is Rolling
a company or what is it?
Mr. TRULY. Well, if you would look at it you wouldn't know what it was
after you opened the box. But it is a new concept in material for reading for
children in the first grade, kindergarten and so forth. They are little blocks
with words on them that roll out, and then you turn them over. It is something
like know way back in my childhood they would use number blocks and things like
that. But it has words and sentences and things they can put together.
Mr. DULLES. A square like dice?
Mr. TRULY. That's right. It looks like dice, only they are bigger. They
have the theory that these can interest a lot of children because of the noise
they put out here, and they pick them up when they hit the floor and put them
together into sentences and things. Something to stimulate the interest of
children who are not quite as advanced in their reading.
Mr. BELIN. Are they relatively heavy or light cartons?
Mr. TRULY. They are very light.
Mr. BELIN. The cartons themselves. About how much would a carton of 10
Rolling Readers weigh?
Mr. TRULY. I don't think they would weigh over between five and ten
pounds.
Mr. BELIN. And by 10 Rolling Readers you mean there were 10 sets of the
Rolling Readers in each of these cartons shown on Exhibit 504?
Mr. TRULY. That's right.
Mr. BELIN. At this time we offer in evidence exhibits 490 through 506
inclusive.
Mr. McCLOY. They may be admitted.
(The documents heretofore marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 490 through
506, inclusive, for identification, were received in evidence.)
Mr. McCLOY. Truly, I think I heard you say when you were describing the
first contact that you had with Oswald that you said, "That is the last
time I saw him until November 16th."
Did I hear you say that?
Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I did not. If I did, it was a mistake. I saw him on
October 16th, the morning he came to work.
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Mr. McCLOY. I put down here that was the last time you had seen him until
November 16th.
Mr. TRULY. For the record, if I said that, that is wrong. I meant October
16th.
The CHAIRMAN. Which was the next morning?
Mr. TRULY. That was the next morning after he was told to come to work.
Mr. DULLES. Do you recall, Mr. Truly, whether you hired any personnel for
work in this particular building, in the School Depository, after the 15th of
October and before the 22d of November?
Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I don't recall hiring anyone else other than Oswald
for that building the same day that I hired Oswald. I believe, if I am not
mistaken, I hired another boy for a temporary job, and put him in the other
warehouse at 1917 North Houston.
Mr. DULLES. At a different warehouse?
Mr. TRULY. At a different warehouse. He was laid off November 15th, I
believe November 15th, or something like that.
Mr. DULLES. What I was getting at is whether an accomplice could have
gotten in in that way. That is why I was asking the question.
Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I don't recall. Actually, the end of our fall
rush--if it hadn't existed a week or 2 weeks longer, or if we had not been using
some of our regular boys putting down this plywood, we would not have had any
need for Lee Oswald at that time, which is a tragic thing for me to think about.
Mr. McCLOY. Mr. Truly, while Oswald was in your employ, did you have any
inquiries made of you by any of the United States agencies, such as FBI,
regarding him?
Mr. TRULY. No, sir; nothing ever.
Mr. DULLES. Did Oswald mention to you anything about his trip to Russia
and return from Russia?
Mr. TRULY. No, sir; he did not. He just told me that he just recently was
discharged
from the Marines with an honorable discharge. And I suppose that if he had had
some background of a few jobs, skipping here and there, I might have
investigated those jobs thoroughly.
Mr. DULLES. He did not tell you about those short-time jobs he had?
Mr. TRULY. No. The thing is I thought he was just discharged from the
service, and we have worked with boys in the past, and they have gone on and got
on their feet and got a better job. And I did not give it a thought that he was
really just not discharged from the Marines.
Mr. BELIN. Mr. Truly, you mentioned the fact that you thought Jack
Dougherty was the one operating that west elevator. Is that correct?
Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Could you tell us a little bit about Jack Dougherty?
Mr. TRULY. Jack Dougherty has been working for us 12 or 14 years. Until
we moved into this building, he has been mostly in our State Department, the
building at 1917 North Houston. He would fill orders for--that called for many
cartons of books on a three-textbook-order basis to the various schools in
Texas. And he seemed to be intelligent and smart and a hard worker. The main
thing is he just worked all the time.
I have never had any occasion to have any hard words for Jack. A few
times he would get a little bit---maybe do a little something wrong, and I would
mention it to him, and he would just go to pieces--not anything--but anything
the rest of the day or the next day would not be right. [Deletion.] He is a
great big husky fellow. I think he is 39 years old. He has never been married.
He has no interest in women. He gets flustered, has a small word for it, at
times. He has never had any trouble. He is a good, loyal, hard working employee.
He always has been.
Mr BELIN. Would you _consider him of average intelligence?
Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir. I think what is wrong with him mostly is his
emotional makeup. I would say that for the work he is doing, he is of average
intelligence.
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Mr. BELIN. When you got to the fifth floor, as I understand it, the west
elevator was not there, but when you started up from the first floor, you
thought it was on the fifth floor.
Mr. TRULY. No. When I came down from the second floor---from the seventh
floor with the officer, I thought I saw Jack Dougherty on the fifth floor, which
he would have had plenty of time to move the elevator down and up and get some
stock and come back.
Mr. BELIN. But when you got to the fifth floor that west elevator was not
there?
Mr. TRULY. No, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Was it on any floor below the fifth floor?
Mr. TRULY. I didn't look.
Mr. BELIN. As you were climbing up the floors, you did not see it?
Mr. TRULY. No, sir.
Mr. BELIN. And if it wasn't on the fifth floor when you got there, it
could have been on the sixth or seventh, I assume.
Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I don't believe so, because I think I would have
heard or seen it coming downstairs when I got on the fifth floor elevator, on
the east side.
Mr. BELIN. Well, suppose it was just stopped on the sixth floor when you
got on the fifth floor elevator. Would you have seen it then?
Mr. TRULY. I think so, yes, sir. As we started up from the fifth floor,
you could see the top of it at an angle.
Mr. BELIN. Were you looking in that direction as you rode up on the fifth
floor, or were you facing the east?
Mr. TRULY. No, sir. I don't know which way I was looking. I was only
intent on getting to the seventh floor.
Mr. BELIN. So you cannot say when you passed the sixth floor whether or
not an elevator was there?
Mr. TRULY. I cannot.
Mr. BELIN. When you got to the seventh floor, you got out of the east
elevator.
Was
the west elevator on the seventh floor?
Mr. TRULY. No, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Are you sure it was not on the seventh floor?
Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Did you hear the west elevator running at any time when you
were riding the elevator from the fifth to the seventh?
Mr. TRULY. I was not aware of it.
Mr. BELIN. All right. I have no further questions.
The CHAIRMAN. Any other questions?
Representative FORD. How many employees do you have in the building on
the corner of Houston and Elm?
Mr. TRULY. I cannot tell you the figures, the total number of the office
and all employees. We had about 15, I think. We had 19-warehouse and
order-filler boys in both warehouses, and there are only four or five down at
the other place. I think we had 15 men working in our warehouse at Houston and
Elm on that day.
Representative FORD. On November 22d.
Mr. DULLES. Would all of them normally have had access to the sixth
floor, or might have gone to the sixth floor?
Mr. TRULY. Possibly any--possibly so. We have one man that checks. He
hardly fills any orders. And we have one or two that write up freight. But any
of the order-fillers there might be a possibility--there might be a possibility
they might need something off the sixth floor.
Representative FORD. When you noticed the police assembling the employees
after the assassination, what prompted you to think that Oswald was not among
them?
Mr. TRULY. I have asked myself that many times. I cannot give an answer.
Unless it was the fact that I knew he was on the second floor, I had seen him 10
or 15 minutes, or whatever it was, before that. That might have brought that
boy's name to my mind--because I was looking over there and he was the only one
I missed at that time that I could think of. Subconsciously it
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might
have been because I saw him on the second floor and I knew he was in the
building.
Representative FORD. Had there been any traits that you had noticed from
the time of his employment that might have made you think then that there was a
connection between the shooting and Oswald?
Mr. TRULY. Not at all. In fact, I was fooled so completely by the sound
of--the direction of the shot, that I did not believe still did not believe
maybe I could not force myself to believe, that the shots came from that
building until I learned that they found the gun and the shells there. So I had
no feeling whatever that they did come from there. I am sure that did not bring
Oswald in my mind. But it was just the fact that they were trying to get
people's names.
Mr. DULLES. When you reported that Oswald was missing, do you recall
whether you told the police that he had been on the second floor?
Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. DULLES. You did not?
Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I just said, "I have a man that is missing. I
don't know whether it means anything, but this is the name."
Representative FORD. Do you know about what time that was that you told
the police?
Mr. TRULY. I could be wrong, but I think it was around 15--between 15
minutes or 20 minutes after the shots, or something. I could be as far off as 5
minutes or so. I don't know. I did not seem to think it was very long. We might
have spent more time up on the roof and coming down, and then I might have
walked out in the shipping department. Everybody was running up asking
questions. Time could fool me. But I did not think it was but about 15 or 20
minutes later.
Representative FORD. In your description of Oswald to Captain Fritz, did
you describe the kind of clothes that Oswald had on that day?
Mr. TRULY. I don't know, sir. No, sir; I just told him his name and where
he lived and his telephone number and his age, as 23, and I said 5 feet, 9,
about 150 pounds, light brown hair--whatever I picked up off the description
there. I did not try to depend on my memory to describe him. I just put down
what was on this application blank. That's the reason I called Mr. Aiken,
because I did not want to mislead anybody as to a description. I might call a
man brown-halted, and he might be blonde.
Mr. DULLES. When you, and the officer saw Oswald in the luncheon room.
did any words pass between you?
Mr. TRULY. No. The officer said something to the boy.
Mr. DULLES. I mean between you and Oswald.
Mr. TRULY. No, sir. Oswald never said a word. Not to me.
Mr. DULLES. What was he doing?
Mr. TRULY. He was just standing there.
Mr. DULLES. Did he have a coke?
Mr. TRULY. No, sir.
Mr. DULLES. No drink?
Mr. TRULY. No drink at all. Just standing there.
Mr. DULLES. Anything about his appearance that was startling or unusual?
Mr. TRULY. No, sir. No, sir; I didn't see him panting like he had been
running or anything.
Mr. DULLES. Didn't appear to be doing anything special, moving in any
direction?
Mr. TRULY. No, sir. He was standing still facing the doorway to the
lunch-room. The officer was there with a gun pointed at him, around towards his
middle, almost touching.
Mr. DULLES. How long before the President's actual visit on the 22d of
November did you know of the visit and of the route that he was going to take.
Mr. TRULY. Well, I think they said it was announced 72 hours before the
assassination that he would take that route.
Mr. DULLES. Was there any discussion, as far as you know, among your
employees, of the fact that the procession would go near the School Depository?
Mr. TRULY. No, sir; not that I know of.
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Mr. McCLOY. Did you ever have any reason to suspect any other member--any
other of your boys of being in any way connected with this affair?
Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I never have found anything or any actions to make me
feel that they might be connected with it.
Mr. McCLOY. You never observed Oswald conversing with any strange or
unidentified characters during his employment with you?
Mr. TRULY. Never.
Mr. DULLES. Did Oswald have any visitors as far as you know?
Mr. TRULY. Never knew of a one; no, sir.
Mr. McCLOY. Did he have the use of a telephone when he was in the
building?
Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir. We have a telephone on the first floor that he was
free to use during his lunch hour for a minute. He was supposed to ask
permission to use the phone. But he could have used the phone.
Mr. DULLES. Pay telephone or office telephone?
Mr. TRULY. No, sir; it is a regular office telephone. It is a pushbutton
type.
Mr. McCLOY. Did he strike you as being a frequent user of that telephone?
Mr. TRULY. I never remember ever seeing him on the telephone.
Mr. DULLES. Would you have any record or be able to find out now whether
he had ever used it?
Mr. TRULY. No, sir.
Mr. McCLOY. You did not see him on November 22d with any package or any
bundle?
Mr. TRULY. No, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Mr. Truly, when we were there on March 20th, did you take a
walk down from the southeast corner window on the sixth floor with Officer Baker
and a Secret Service Agent Howlett--we walked along from that window at the
southeast corner of the sixth floor, walked along the east wall to the northeast
corner of the building, and then across there around the elevators, and Secret
Service Agent Howlett simulated putting a rifle at the spot where the rifle was
found; and then we took the stairs down to the second floor lunch-room where
Officer Baker encountered Lee Harvey Oswald? You remember us doing that?
Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. How fast were we going--running, trotting, walking or what?
Mr. TRULY. Walking at a brisk walk, and then a little bit faster, I would
say.
Mr. BELIN. You remember what time that was? How long did it take?
Mr. TRULY. It seemed to me like it was a minute and 18 seconds, and a
minute and 15 seconds. We tried it twice. I believe that is about as near as I
remember.
Mr. BELIN. If a person were in that southeast corner window, just knowing
the way the books were laid up there, would that have been the most practicable
route to use to get out of there, to get down the stairs?
Mr. TRULY. I believe so. I believe it to be.
Mr. McCLOY. In your judgment, you think that is the route that Oswald
took?
Mr. TRULY. I think--he had two possible routes there. One of them, he
could come half way down the east wall and down this way, but he would have to
make one more turn. But if he came all the way down the east wall to where the
rows of books stop, he had a straight run toward the sixth floor stairs.
Mr. DULLES. You do not think he used any of the elevators at any time to
get from the sixth to the second floor?
Mr. TRULY. You mean after the shooting? No, sir; he just could not,
because those elevators, I saw myself, were both on the fifth floor, they were
both even. And I tried to get one of them, and then when we ran up to the second
floor--it would have been impossible for him to have come down either one of
those elevators after the assassination. He had to use the stairway as his only
way of getting down--since we did see the elevators in those positions.
Mr. DULLES. He could not have taken it down and then have somebody else
go up to, that floor and leave it?
Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I don't believe he would have had time for that.
Representative FORD. He couldn't have taken an elevator down and then
sent it up to a higher floor?
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Mr. TRULY. No, sir. Yes; he could. I suppose he could put his hand
through the slotted bars and touched one of the upper floors.
Mr. BELIN. On both elevators?
Mr. TRULY. That is just the west one only.
Representative FORD. That was feasible, even though it might be a little
difficult?
Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.
Representative FORD. There was no button on the outside that permitted
him to send an elevator up to a higher floor?
Mr. TRULY. No, sir. It would take him quite a little job to get his hand
all through there and press one.
Mr. DULLES. Would he have to break any glass to do it?
Mr. TRULY. No, sir. The car gate and then there was an outside gate
slatted---slats about this far apart.
Mr. McCLOY. When you entered the building with the officer behind you,
when you were presumably trying to get to the roof, there had been no cordon at
that time thrown around the building?
Mr. TRULY. No, sir.
Mr. McCLOY. So that Oswald could have slipped out without an officer
having been at the doorway at that point?
Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir; I think so. There were many officers running down
west of the building. It appears many people thought the shots came from there
because of the echo or what.
Mr. DULLES. Is it your view he went out the front door rather than one of
the back doors?
Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir; it is. From the nature. from the direction he was
walking through the office, and the front stairway, to reach the second
floor--it is my view that he walked down the front stairs and just out through
the crowd there, probably a minute or two before the police had everything
stopped.
Mr. McCLOY. From what you know of these young men who testified before
you today, are they trustworthy?
Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir; I think they are. They are good men. They have been
with me, most of them, for some time. I have no reason to doubt their word. I do
know that they have been rather, as the expression goes, shook up about this
thing, especially this tall one, Bonnie Williams. He is pretty superstitious, I
would say. For 2 or 3 weeks the work was not normal, or a month. The boys did
not put out their normal amount of work. Their hearts were not in it. But after
that, they have picked up very well. They are doing their work well.
Mr. BELIN. If we can go off the record for just a moment.
(Discussion off the record.)
The CHAIRMAN. Back on the record.
Mr. TRULY. I thank you very much.
The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, sir. You have helped us a good deal. We will
recess at this time until 9 o'clock tomorrow morning.
(Whereupon, at 6 p.m. the President's Commission recessed.)