Home

 

 

ROY TRULY

 

ROY TRULY   VOLUME III

 

TESTIMONY OF ROY SANSOM TRULY

 

            Mr. BELIN. Next we will call Mr. Truly.

            Mr. McCLOY. Will you raise your right hand, and stand.

            Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give in this case will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

            Mr. TRULY. I do.

            Mr. McCLOY. I would like to state, Mr. Truly, what the purpose of this hearing is.

            This is to hear the testimony of several witnesses, or people close to the event of the assassination of the President, to get as much knowledge as we can of' the facts concerning that event, which largely centers around the School Book Depository and the people in it, on the afternoon of November 22d.

            Will you state for the record your full name?

            Mr. TRULY. Roy Sansom Truly.

            Mr. BELIN. Mr. Truly, where do you live?

            Mr. TRULY. I live at 4932 Jade Drive , Dallas , Tex.

            Mr. BELIN. Are you originally from Dallas ?

            Mr. TRULY. No. I have been in Dallas since 1925.

            Mr. BELIN. Where were you born, sir?

            Mr. TRULY. Hubbard , Tex.

            Mr. BELIN. And what was your birth date?

            Mr. TRULY. August 29, 1907.

            Mr. BELIN. Mr. Truly, where did you go to school?

            Mr. TRULY. I finished high school at Hubbard--

            Mr. BELIN. In Texas ?

            Mr. TRULY. In Texas .

            Mr. BELIN. And what did you do after you finished high school?

            Mr. TRULY. Well, I came to Dallas in the fall of that year and I have been there ever since.

            Mr. BELIN. For whom did you become employed when you came to Dallas ?

            Mr. TRULY. I believe my father ran a cafe here in Dallas , and I worked with him a short while. And then in the fall of 1925, I went to work for Higginbotham, Bailey, Logan Co.

            Mr. BELIN. What business is that?

            Mr. TRULY. That is wholesale drygoods.

            Mr. BELIN. And how long did you work with them?

            Mr. TRULY. I believe a little less than a year.

            Mr. BELIN. And then where did you

            Mr. TRULY. I went to work for National Casket Co.

            Mr. BELIN. And about how long did you work for them?

            Mr. TRULY. I couldn't be certain. Several years--maybe 3 or 4 or 5 years.

            Mr. BELIN. And in what capacity did you work for them?

            Mr. TRULY. Well, I worked in the cloth room, learning the trade of putting in the drapery and things in the caskets.

            Mr. BELIN. And from there, where did you go?

            Mr. TRULY. I worked a short time at the Dallas Coffin Co., several months. It wasn't very long. And I left there and during the depression I worked for several things. I drove a laundry truck off and on for a couple of years.

            (At this point, Representative Ford withdrew from the hearing room.)

            Mr. TRULY. I believe I even worked for the WPA back there in those days.

            Mr. BELIN. All right.

            And after the depression, where did you start working then?

            Mr. TRULY. I went to work for the Texas School Book Depository in July 1934.

            Mr. BELIN. And have you been employed by the Texas School Book Depository since that date, since July 1934?

            Mr. TRULY. That is right.

            (At this point, Mr. Dulles entered the hearing room.)

            Mr. BELIN. In what capacity have you worked for that company?

            Mr. TRULY. First, when I first went to work for this company, I had charge of

 

                                                            212

 

Page 213

 

the miscellaneous order department, which is actually a one-man operation. I filled orders for books other than state-adopted textbooks.

            Mr. BELIN. And then what?

            Mr. TRULY. I worked on through that time until the present time. During the war I worked in the North American plant at Arlington .

            Mr. BELIN. That is the North American Aviation?

            Mr. TRULY. North American Aviation plant at Arlington , for around 14 months, at night. But I continued to hold my job.

            Well, I would go down to work 2, 3, 4 hours a day. Shortly after that, I took charge of all the shipping.

            Well, I have been superintendent of the operation since some time in the late 1944.

            Mr. BELIN. You have been superintendent of the Texas School Book Depository. And do you have any other positions with the company at this time?

            Mr. TRULY. I am a director--I am a member of the board of directors of the Texas School Book Depository.

            Mr. BELIN. Is that a state organization or a private company?

            Mr. TRULY. It is a private corporation.

            Mr. BELIN. Mr. Truly, when did you first hear of the name of Lee Harvey Oswald?

            Mr. TRULY. I heard the name on or about October 15th.

            Mr. BELIN. Of what year?

            Mr. TRULY. Of 1963.

            Mr. BELIN. And from whom did you hear the name? Could you just relate to the Commission the circumstances, if you would, please?

            Mr. TRULY. I received a phone call from a lady in Irving who said her name was Mrs. Paine.

            Mr. BELIN. All right.

            What did Mrs. Paine say, and what did you say?

            Mr. TRULY. She said, "Mr. Truly,"---words to this effect---you understand---" Mr. Truly, you don't know who I am but I have a neighbor whose brother works for you. I don't know what his name is. But he tells his sister that you are very busy. And I am just wondering if you can use another man," or words to that effect.

            And I told Mrs.---she said, "I have a fine young man living here with his wife and baby, and his wife is expecting a baby--another baby, in a few days, and he needs work desperately."

            Now, this is not absolutely--this is as near as I can remember the conversation over the telephone.

            And I told Mrs. Paine that--to send him down, and I would talk to him--that I didn't have anything in mind for him of a permanent nature, but if he was suited, we could possibly use him for a brief time.

            Mr. BELIN. Was there anything else from that conversation that you remember at all, or not?

            Mr. TRULY. No. I believe that was the first and the last time that I talked to Mrs. Paine.

            In fact, I could not remember her name afterwards until I saw her name in print, and then it popped into my mind that this was the lady who called me.

            Mr. BELIN. All right.

Anything else on--what was this--October 15th--about Lee Harvey Oswald?

            Mr. TRULY, Yes, sir; I am sure it was on October 15th.

            Mr. BELIN. Anything else you can remember about Lee Harvey Oswald on that day?

            Mr. TRULY. She told me she would tell him to come down and see me.

            So he came in, introduced himself to me, and I took him in my office and interviewed him. He seemed to be quiet and well mannered.

            I gave him an application to fill out, which he did.

            Mr. BELIN. Did he fill it out in front of you, or not?

            Mr. TRULY. Yes; he did. And he told me I asked him about experience that he had had, or where he had worked, and he said he had just served his term in the Marine Corps and had received an honorable discharge, and he listed some things of an office nature that he had learned to do in the Marines.

 

                                                            213

 

Page 214

 

            I questioned him about any past activities. I asked him if he had ever had any trouble with the police, and he said, no. So thinking that he was just out of the Marines, I didn't check any further back. I didn't have anything of a permanent nature in mind for him. He looked like a nice young fellow to me--he was quiet and well mannered. He used the word "sir", you know, which a lot of them don't do at this time.

            So I told him if he would come to work on the morning of the 16th, it was the beginning of a new pay period. So he filled out his withholding slip, with the exception of the number of dependents.

            He asked me if I would hold that for 3 or 4 days, that he is expecting a baby momentarily.

            So some 4 days or so later--I don't remember the exact day--he told me that he had this new baby, and he wanted to add one dependent.

            He finished filling it out. And I sent it up to Mr. Campbell who makes out the payroll for the company.

            Mr. BELIN. Now, on October 15th you saw him fill out the application form for employment in his own writing?

            Mr. TRULY. Yes.

            Mr. BELIN. You also saw him fill out the withholding slip, except for the number of exemptions, in his own writing, is that correct?

            Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.

            Mr. BELIN. Any other conversation that you can remember from your meeting on October 15th?

            Mr. TRULY. Well, he told me that he needed a job. He said he had a wife and child to support. And he also repeated that he was expecting a child in a few days.

            And I told Lee Oswald that I had some work, that if he could fit in, of a temporary nature, we could put him on. But I didn't have anything in mind of a permanent job at that time, because I didn't have any openings for a permanent person. And he said he would be glad to have any type of work I would give him, because he did need-- and he stressed he really needed a job to support his family.

            Mr. BELIN. Anything else from that conversation on October 15th?

            Mr. TRULY. Nothing that I can recall, except that he seemed to be grateful that I was giving him the chance of a little extra work, if you want to call it that.

He left, and I didn't see him any more until the morning of the 16th.

            Mr. BELIN. What were his hours of work to be?

            Mr. TRULY, His hours were from 8 in the morning until 4:45 in the afternoon. His lunch period was from 12 to 12:45.

            Mr. BELIN. Did you have a time clock there that they punch or not?

            Mr. TRULY. No, sir.

            Mr. BELIN. The next morning, do you know whether or not he came to work?

            Mr. TRULY. He came to work the next morning. I told him what his duties were to be would be filling book orders. And I told Mr. Shelley, who is on that floor and has charge of the miscellaneous department.

            Now, this particular thing as to whether I called a boy or Mr. Shelley did--anyway, we put Lee Oswald with another worker who was experienced in filling orders. This boy showed him the location of the various publishers' stock. He worked with him, it seems to me, like only an hour or two, and then he started filling orders by himself. And from then on he worked alone.

            He would occasionally ask the other boys where certain stock items were when he couldn't find them. But he was filling small parcel post and a few freight orders for the various schools--as they would come down from the office.

            Mr. BELIN. Well, could you describe how his work progressed as he was working with you?

            Mr. TRULY. Well, he seemed to catch on and learn the location of the stock. We have several thousand titles of books in our warehouse. But he was filling mostly one or two publishers' orders.

            Mr. BELIN. What publishers were those?

 

                                                            214

 

Page 215

 

            Mr. TRULY. The main publisher was Scott, Foresman and Co.

            Now, they have quite a lot of small orders, all through the year. They are one of our biggest publishers. So it kept him busy filling mostly their orders, plus some of the smaller publishers. Possibly he filled some of Gregg Publishing Go. and others. But when he would run out of Scott, Foreman orders, he would pick up other orders that might have had several publishers' books on the same order.

            Incidentally, not only Scott, Foresman orders were billed separately. There would be other publishers' orders on the same invoice.

            Mr. BELIN. Well, perhaps you might explain to the Commission just what exactly the nature of your business is, and how an employee would go about filling orders.

            Mr. TRULY. We are agents for a number of publishers. We furnish offices for those who desire them in Texas . And our business is shipping, inventorying, collecting, doing all the bookkeeping work for the various publishers' books.

            Now, we have most of the publishers' stock is lined up alphabetically by titles or by stock numbers or code numbers, whichever determines that.

            And the location of the books each publisher's books are to themselves. They are not mixed in with several other publishers on the various floors.

            On the first floor we have bin stock, shelf stock, we fill a lot of small orders from.

            And then in the basement the same.

            The fifth and the sixth floor, and part of the seventh floor is overflow stock. It is reserve stock.

            But the boys have to go to those floors all during the day to pick up stock and bring it to the first floor in order to process and complete the orders for the checker.

            Mr. DULLES. What would reserve stock mean?

            Mr. TRULY. Actually it is not reserve stock--it is not surplus either. It is part of our stock. But we can carry a limited. amount only on the first floor where we do our shipping. So they may get an order for a hundred copies of a certain book and there may only be 10 or 15 or 20 on the shelf on the first floor. They will have to go upstairs and get a carton or two. And they replenish the first floor stock from that.

            And many of our freight orders are filled entirely from our reserve stock. And they bring them to the first floor. All orders reach the first floor, where they are checked and processed and packed and shipped from that floor.

            Mr. BELIN. Where, generally, are Scott, Foresman books kept?

            Mr. TRULY. On the first floor and the sixth floor. We have a large quantity of their books on the sixth floor.

            Mr. BELIN. And this is the area where Lee Harvey Oswald worked?

            Mr. TRULY. That is right.

            Mr. BELIN. That publisher?

            Mr. TRULY. That publisher. He had occasion to go to the sixth floor quite a number of times every day, each day, after books.

            Mr. BELIN. Now, when an order would come in, how would it get to the individual employee, so the employee would go out and pick out the books?

            Mr. TRULY. The orders came into our office and were processed by our girls, priced and billed by the bill clerks, and then were sent down a little chute to the first floor, a little dumbwaiter, regardless of publisher.

            The boys would take them off of this dumbwaiter and carry them over on to a little table near the checker stand.

            Various ones would sort out the publishers--sort out the orders by publishers.

            Scott, Foresman could be here, there would be a stock of Gregg and Southwestern over here, we have a number of small publishers, maybe we would group them altogether. And the boys usually know which particular orders they are supposed to fill from, because they-know the books, they can tell.

            On each order it says, "SF" for Scott, Foresman on each invoice and so forth.

            Mr. BELIN. Do they just pick up the piece of paper for the order and carry them around with them?

 

                                                            215

 

Page 216

 

            Mr. TRULY. That is right, Most of them use a clipboard. They may have several orders at a time on the clipboard. That saves them going back to the table continually for one order. These orders amount from anything to $3 or $4 to $300 or $400, on up.

            But usually if a boy is filling Scott, Foresman's orders, for instance, and he sees half a dozen over there, he will pick up maybe that many.

            But during our busy season, when we have stacks and stacks of orders on the table, they don't try to put them all on a clipboard, they take a few at a time when they go to the sixth floor after stock, they try to be certain what they need for several orders at one trip.

            Mr. BELIN. Who else worked on Scott, Foresman other than Lee Harvey Oswald?

            Mr. TRULY. Well, I assume that all of our boys, all of our order fillers have worked at some time or other, because when the boys finish up the stocks they are working, the orders they are filling, if there is anything left, regardless of publisher, they go fill it.

            But Scott, Foresman was one of our publishers that I would say would be easiest for a new man to learn how to fill.

            And we have a lot of those orders.

            You can give a new man those orders, once he understands a little about the alphabetical arrangement, the location of the stock, and he can go ahead and fill orders, and you won't have to keep showing him things. They are easier to fill.

            Usually the boys that fill a lot of the other orders are the boys that have had more experience overall, they have been there some time, and they will know the general location of all the stock, and it is just easier for an experienced man to fill some other orders.

            Mr. BELIN. When they fill the orders, they go and get the books, and bring them down to your wrapping and mailing section?

            Mr. TRULY. That is right. And they are checked to see that they are in correct quantities and titles and called for on the order, or the invoice.

            Then they are weighed up on parcel post scales, if they go by parcel post, or they are processed over on the floor if they are big enough for freight.

            Mr. BELIN. And, as I understand it, they would first look to see if the title would be on the first floor in your bins, and then only if it wasn't on the first floor would they go up to some of the upper floors with your reserve stock, is that correct?

            Mr. TRULY. That is right.

            Mr. BELIN. Anything else you can think of with regard to the particular nature of the type of work that Lee Harvey Oswald did when he was working for your company?

            Mr. TRULY. Nothing except that we have occasionally--we would check the number of orders that each boy filled per day, to see if he is doing a day's work. And each invoice which is the billing of the order, has a little section for a checker's number. And the order filler's number. Our checker periodically would count at the end of the day the number of orders that each order filler filled that day.

            We could tell at that time whether some of them were doing much more work than others.

            And we also kept a list of mistakes that he catches a boy making, such as filling the wrong quantity of books, or the wrong title. We didn't do that every day, because it is a top heavy thing, and if we have to keep a check on your boys all the time, it is not worthwhile.

            Mr. BELIN. What did you find generally--would you classify Lee Harvey Oswald as an average employee--above average, or below average employee?

            Mr. TRULY. I would say for the nature of the work and the time he was there, the work that he did was a bit above average. I wasn't on that floor constantly. The boy, from all reports to me, and what I have seen kept working and talked little to anybody else. He just kept moving. And he did a good day's work.

            Mr. BELIN. What was his pay?

            Mr. TRULY. $1.25 an hour.

 

                                                            216

 

Page 217

 

            Mr. BELIN. 5-day week?

            Mr. TRULY. Yes

            Mr. BELIE. Did he miss many days of work?

            Mr. TRULY. We had no record of him missing any days.

            Mr. BELIN. By the way, was your company open on Armistice Day, November 11th, or not? If you know.

            Mr. TRULY. We usually are closed on that day.

            Now, I just cannot remember whether we were closed that day or not.

            Mr. BELIN. I hand you what has been marked Commission Exhibit No. 496, which appears to be a photostatic copy of a document, and I ask you to state if you know what that is.

            (The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 496 for identification.)

            Mr. TRULY. This is a copy of the application blank that Oswald filled out. I am not familiar with his handwriting, because he didn't do anything that we have records of. All the work that he ever did was put his number or something.

            Mr. BELIN, Well, my first question is this: Is this particular form a form of your company?

            Mr. TRULY. That is one form; yes. We changed it a little bit, and this might have been just one that I pulled out. I can't recall whether it is the one we use now or the one we did use.

            Mr. BELIN. Well, was this a form that you were using at about the time he came for employment?

            Mr. TRULY. Yes.

            (At this point, Representative Ford entered the hearing room.)

            Mr. BELIN. Did you see him fill this out? Was it in your office or not?

            Mr. TRULY. Yes. He was sitting opposite me, and he filled it out on my desk.

            Mr. BELIN. He filled this Exhibit 496 out on your desk?

            Mr. TRULY. Yes.

            Mr. BELIN. At this time we offer in evidence Exhibit 496.

            495 as yet has not been offered. And I don't know if 494 has been offered or not.

            But, in the event it has not, we offer that in evidence.

            Mr. McCLOY. It may be admitted.

            (The documents heretofore marked for identification as Commission Exhibits Nos. 494, 495, and 496 were received in evidence.)

            Mr. BELIN. Mr. Truly, are there any other observations you can give about Lee Harvey Oswald as an employee during the month of October 1963, or during the month of November, prior to November 22, 1963?

            Mr. TRULY. Nothing that I can recall.

            I would speak to him in the morning when I would come through, and I would say, "Good morning, Lee," and he would say, "Good morning, sir."

            I would ask him how he was. Occasionally I would ask about his baby, and he would usually smile a big smile when I asked him how his new baby was. And that was just about the extent of my conversation that I can remember with the boy.

            But I usually saw him every morning as I would come through. He would be working around the front part of the Scott, Foresman bins and shelf space.

            Mr. BELIN. Did you ever see whether or not he seemed to strike up any friendship or acquaintanceship with the other employees?

            Mr. TRULY. No; I never noticed that anywheres. In fact, I would be inclined--well--I never saw him with anyone else, except occasionally talking, maybe asking where books were or something.

            I don't know what he would say. But very little conversation he had with anyone.

            And he worked by himself. His job was something that he needed no help with, other than to ask occasionally for stock. It wasn't a teamwork job at all.

            Consequently, he didn't have much occasion to talk with the other boys.

            I thought it was a pretty good trait at the time, because occasionally you

 

                                                            217

731-219 O--64--vol.III---15

 

 

Page 218

 

have to spread your boys out and say, "Quit talking so much, let's get to work."

            And it seemed to me like he paid attention to his job.

            Mr. BELIN. Did you notice whether or not he brought his lunch to work generally?

            Mr. TRULY. I never was aware that he brought a lunch. I would see him occasionally in the shipping department eating some little snack or something--didn't pay much attention: Offhand, it seemed to be not too much---a Coca-Cola, Dr. Pepper, and some little thing.

            Maybe he would be sitting there reading a book or a newspaper.

            Mr. BELIN. You would see him occasionally reading a newspaper at the lunch hour?

            Mr. TRULY. I am sure so; yes.

            And occasionally--I didn't always go to lunch at 12--usually a little after. And he would have to pass my door to go out the front. Occasionally I had seen the boy go out, and maybe he would be gone long enough to get across the street and back, with something in his hand. I seem to recall possibly a newspaper, maybe potato chips or something like that.

            Mr. BELIN. Did you ever have any discussions with him about politics or anything like that?

            Mr. TRULY. Never.

            Mr. BELIN. Prior to November 22, did you have any discussion with him about the Presidential motorcade, or hear him tail to anyone about it?

            Mr. TRULY. I never heard him talk to anyone, and I didn't talk to him myself.

            Mr. BELIN. Any other things about Lee Harvey Oswald prior to November 22 that you can think of?

            Mr. TRULY. Offhand I cannot recall a thing.

            Just like I said--he seemed to go about his business in a quiet way, didn't talk much, seemed to be doing a satisfactory job.

            Mr. BELIN. If you turn behind you, you will see Commission Exhibit No. 362, and it appears to be a floor plan which is entitled, "Texas School Book Depository." You see the room marked Mr. Truly's office?

            Mr. TRULY. That is right

            Mr. BELIN. Does that appear to accurately depict where your office is located?

This is the front of the building here at the top.

            Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.

            Mr. BELIN. And it was in the place marked Mr. Truly's office that Lee Harvey Oswald filled out in front of you on your desk Exhibit 496?

            Mr. TRULY. That is right.

            Mr. BELIN. And also the withholding slip?

            Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.

            Mr. BELIN. Now I want to take you to the morning of November 22d.

            First let me ask you when you first heard your employees discussing the fact that the motorcade would be going by the Texas School Book Depository? Was that first on the morning of November 22d that you heard that, or at any prior date?

            Mr. TRULY. I don't recall. I don't recall hearing any particular discussion about him coming by. No, sir; I don't.

            Mr. BELIN. All right.

What time did you get to work on November 22d?

            Mr. TRULY. Around 8 o'clock, or shortly thereafter.

            Mr. BELIN. Did you see Lee Harvey Oswald at any time during that day?

            Mr. TRULY. I am almost certain that I saw him early that morning as I came in, and spoke to him.

            Mr. BELIN. And where was he when you saw him?

            Mr. TRULY. I think he was around the front part of the Scott, Foresman bins.

            Mr. BELIN. On what floor?

            Mr. TRULY. On the first floor.

            Mr. BELIN. Was he filling orders?

            Mr. TRULY. Apparently; yes, sir. I don't recall too close. But I am almost certain that I talked to him that morning.

 

                                                            218

 

Page 219

 

            Mr. BELIN. Do you recall any conversation you might have had with him, or he might have had with you?

            Mr. TRULY. No, sir. If there was anything, I just said "Good morning, Lee", and he said, "Good morning, sir" and that would be the extent of my conversation, if I saw him that morning, which I am almost certain I did.

            Mr. BELIN. Did you see him any other time during that day?

            Mr. TRULY. I cannot recall. I believe I saw him that morning later on, around his work. But I probably wasn't on that floor too much, or out on the floor that morning.

            Mr. BELIN. Now, when did you leave for lunch, Mr. Truly?

            Mr. TRULY. As near as I know, it was between somewheres around 12:10 or shortly after, possibly 12:15.

            Mr. BELIN. At that time did you go out to lunch?

            Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.

            Mr. BELIN. Where did you go to eat?

            Mr. TRULY. We didn't go anywheres. Mr. Campbell and I--

            Mr. BELIN. That is Mr. O. V. Campbell?

            Mr. TRULY. Mr. O. V. Campbell, vice president--and I had started out for lunch. I don't know as we had any particular place in mind. We ate at several places around there.

            It was around 12:10 or 12:15, I would say, to the nearest of my memory.

            As we got to the outside of the building, we noticed that it wouldn't be long until the motorcade would come by, and we decided to wait and watch the President come by.

            Mr. BELIN. Do you remember where you were standing with Mr. Campbell?

            Mr. TRULY. I would judge out in Elm Street, 10 to 15 or 20 feet from the front steps. We first stood on the steps, the bottom steps a few minutes, and then we walked out in the line of spectators on the side of Elm Street.

            Mr. BELIN. I hand you what has been marked Commission Exhibit 495, and ask you to state, if you know, what this is.

            Mr. TRULY. This is the front entrance to our building.

            Mr. BELIN. In what direction would the camera be pointing?

            Mr. TRULY. Almost straight out from it. It would not be well, it could be on a little angle.

            Mr. BELIN. I mean would the camera be pointing east, west, north, or south?

            Mr. TRULY. North.

            Mr. BELIN. And the camera would be pointing north on Exhibit 495.

            I wonder if on that exhibit you would put the place where you and Mr. Campbell first stood, and mark that with the letter "A" if you would.

            Mr. TRULY. The street curved there, I suppose. I think possibly along here somewheres.

            Mr. BELIN. You have marked a letter "A" on Exhibit 495. Now, I believe you said that afterwards you went and moved out towards the street, is that correct?

            Mr. TRULY. That is right.

            Mr. BELIN. I am going to put up on the board Commission Exhibit No. 361.

The bottom of the picture is relatively north, sir.

            And the top faces roughly south.

            And here is the Texas School Book Depository Building--located at Houston and Elm.

            Mr. TRULY. That is right.

            Mr. BELIN. I wonder if you could put on Exhibit 361 with the letter "T" the spot at which you were standing when you moved to a closer position to watch the motorcade.

            Mr. TRULY. I could be off a few feet, but I believe possibly over this way just a bit--that is within 3 or 4 or 5 feet of this area.

            We were almost out in this. And I think when the motorcade came around, we probably pushed out even a bit farther.

            Mr. BELIN. Now, by this, you are referring to the entrance to the parkway, is that correct?

            Mr. TRULY. Yes.

 

                                                            219

 

Page 220

 

            Mr. BELIN. And, you say that you are either at the spot marked by the letter. "T" or perhaps a little bit to the east of that?

            Mr. TRULY. That is right.

            Mr. BELIN. And that you gradually might have moved a little bit towards the south, towards the parkway, is that correct?

            Mr. TRULY. That is correct.

            Mr. BELIN. All right.

            Do you know approximately what time you got there, Mr. Truly? To the best of your recollection.

            Mr. TRULY. 3 or 4 minutes after we reached the entrance, the walkway, we stood on the steps 2 or 3 minutes, and then I don't believe we just gradually moved out a bit.

            And then when the policemen leading the motorcade came off of Main on to Houston, we saw them coming, and then we just moved out a little farther to the edge of the parkway.

            Mr. BELIN. Did you notice any other company employees with you other than Mr. Campbell at that time?

            Mr. TRULY. Well, I did. I noticed several. Mrs. Reid was standing there close. And it seemed like there were several of the other employees standing out in front of the building. But I cannot--I think Bill Shelley was standing over to my right as I faced the motorcade--somewheres in that area.

            I noticed just before the motorcade passed there were, I believe, three of our colored boys had come out and started up, and two of them came back. And I didn't see them when the motorcade passed.

            But they had started across Houston Street up Elm, and they came back later on, and I think those were the ones that were two of them were the ones on the fifth floor. Possibly they could not see over the crowd. They are short boys. I wasn't doing too well at that, myself.

            Mr. BELIN. All right.

            What did you next see with reference to the motorcade?

            Mr. TRULY. Do you mind me-

            Mr. BELIN. Do you want to turn that over, sir? Will that be easier for you?

            Mr. TRULY. It might be. easier for the gentlemen when I point this out. Now, what was the question?

            Mr. BELIN. My question is what did you see with reference to the motorcade?

            Mr. TRULY. All right.

            We saw the motorcycle escort come off of Main and turn onto Houston Street.

            Mr. BELIN. Main would be down here, and it would be coming off Houston, heading towards the building?

            Mr. TRULY. Headed towards the building.

            Mr. BELIN. All right.

            Mr. TRULY. And it went on down this way. And immediately after--

            Mr. BELIN. By "this way" you mean the street marked Parkway?

            Mr. TRULY. I assume that is the underpass that you have marked Parkway.

            Mr. BELIN. The street leading to the expressway, that diagonal street?

            Mr. TRULY. That is right.

            And the President's car following close behind came along at an average speed of 10 or 15 miles an hour. It wasn't that much, because they were getting ready to turn. And the driver of the Presidential car swung out too far to the right, and he came almost within an inch of running into this little abutment here, between Elm and the Parkway. And he slowed down perceptibly and pulled back to the left to get over into the middle lane of the parkway. Not being familiar with the street, he came too far out this way when he made his turn.

            Mr. BELIN. He came too far to the north before he made his curve, and as he curved--as he made his left turn from Houston onto the street leading to the expressway, he almost hit this north curb?

            Mr. TRULY. That is right. Just before he got to it, he had to almost stop, to pull over to the left.

            If he had maintained his speed, he would probably have hit this little section here.

 

                                                            220

 

Page 221

 

            Mr. Belin. All right.

            Now, what is your best estimate of the speed as he started to go down the street here marked Parkway?

            Mr. TRULY. He picked up a little speed along here, and then seemed to have fallen back into line, and I would say 10 or 12 miles an hour in this area.

            Mr. BELIN. All right.

            Then what did you see happen?

            Mr. TRULY. I heard an explosion, which I thought was a toy cannon or a loud firecracker from west of the building. Nothing happened at this first explosion. Everything was frozen. And immediately after two more explosions, which I realized that I thought was a gun, a rifle of some kind.

            The President's--I saw the President's car swerve to the left and stop somewheres down in this area. It is misleading here. And that is the last I saw of his ear, because this crowd, when the third shot rang out--there was a large crowd all along this abutment here, this little wall, and there was some around us in front--they began screaming and falling to the ground. And the people in front of myself and Mr. Campbell surged back, either in terror or panic. They must have seen this thing. I became separated from Mr. Campbell. They just practically bore me back to the first step on the entrance of our building.

            Mr. BELIN. When you saw the President's car seem to stop, how long did it appear to stop?

            Mr. TRULY. It would be hard to say over a second or two or something like that. I didn't see I just saw it stop. I don't know. I didn't see it start up.

            Mr. BELIN, Then you stopped looking at it, or you were distracted by something else?

            Mr. TRULY. Yes. The crowd in front of me kind of congealed around me and bore me back through weight of numbers, and I lost sight of it.

            I think there were a lot of people trying to get out of the way of something. They didn't know what.

            Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do or see?

            Mr. TRULY. I heard a policeman in this area along here make a remark, "Oh, goddam," or something like that. I just remember that. It wasn't a motorcycle policeman. It was one of the Dallas policeman, I think-- words to that effect.

            I wouldn't know him. I just remember there was a policeman standing along in this area about 7, 8, or 10 feet from me.

            But as I came back here, and everybody. was screaming and hollering, just moments later-I saw a young motorcycle policeman run up to the building, up the steps to the entrance of our building. He ran right by me. And he was pushing people out of the way. He pushed a number of people out of the way before he got to me. I saw him coming through, I believe. As he ran up the stairway--I mean up the steps, I was almost to the steps, I ran up and caught up with him. I believe I caught up with him inside the lobby of the building, or possibly the front steps. I don't remember that close. But I remember it occurred to me that this man wants on top of the building. He doesn't know the plan of the floor. And-that is-that just pepped in my mind, and I ran in with him. As we got in the lobby, almost on the inside of the first floor, this policeman asked me where the stairway is. And I said, "This way". And I ran diagonally across to the northwest corner of the building.

            Mr. BELIN. Now, let me, if I can--turning to Exhibit 362 again, I wonder if you would, with this--we can first do it with this pen, if you would--trace your route inside there. Point out the place inside the lobby where you talked to the policeman, where he said "where is the stairway."

            Mr. TRULY. I believe along right there.

            Mr. BELIN. All right. Could you put a "T" on Exhibit 362, if you would.

            Mr. TRULY. I could be wrong, but I am almost positive that is the place.

            Mr. BELIN. All right.

            Now--and this is inside the glass or plastic set of doors shown on Exhibit 495, is that correct?

            Mr. TRULY. That is correct.

            Mr. BELIN. Now, he said to you what?

            Mr. TRULY. Where is the stairway.

 

                                                            221

 

Page 222

 

            Mr. BELIN. And what did you say to him?

            Mr. TRULY. I said "This way."

            Mr. BELIN. Now, I wonder if you would take this pen and show the route that you took with the policeman, or take your own pen, if you would, sir---starting from point "T" on Exhibit 362.

            Mr. TRULY. I ran in front of him.

            Mr. BELIN. You better mark on the exhibit, sir.

            Mr. TRULY. Took this route. There is a swinging door and a counter, what we call our will call counter right here.

            Mr. BELIN. Is it here, or here?

            Mr. TRULY. No, wait a minute.

There right here. We came in this way.

            Mr. BELIN. Do you still want to put point "T" up here?

            Mr. TRULY. No. This was on the steps, wasn't it? This is where I am sure he asked me.

            Mr. BELIN. You better cross out the other one, then.

            Mr. TRULY. I saw this thing here, and I thought it was that little swinging door.

            Mr. BELIN. That would be the main door? Now, you have point "T."

Now, will you trace the route from point "T"?

            Mr. TRULY. We came through this door here. The policeman right behind me.

            Mr. BELIN. All right.

            Mr. TRULY. This is a counter and this is a counter built in that cut inside this is where our customers come that pick up books.

            Mr. BELIN. All right.

            When you are pointing to the counter on Exhibit 362, you are pointing to a rectangle that appears to be located immediately to the west of the glass--looks like a glass partition to your office, is that correct?

            Mr. TRULY. That is right.

            Mr. BELIN. You call that the will call counter?

            Mr. TRULY. That is right.

            Mr. BELIN. What happened when you got there?

            Mr. TRULY. There is a little swinging door that swings in and out that we have there. We never keep it locked. But on the bottom is a little bolt that you can lock it to keep people from pulling it out or pushing it in. And this bolt had slid out. It has done that on occasions. I started to run through this little opening, and I ran into the door, and the bolt hung against the side of the counter, and the policeman ran into my back. And so I just pulled it

back and continued on through.

            Mr. BELIN. All right.

            Now, the door didn't swing through. The bolt stuck. So you were stuck by the door. The policeman ran into you. And then you had to stop and pull the door back and go through it.

            Mr. TRULY. That is right.

            Mr. BELIN. Then where did you go? You might continue with your pen on Exhibit 362, showing the route.

            All right.

            Now, you have cut sort of diagonally across towards the rear, and you have come to the west elevator in the rear.

            Mr. TRULY. That is right.

            Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this, Mr. Truly. I note on Exhibit 362 right where you came in there appears to be some stairs there. Why didn't you go up those stairs, instead of running to the back?

            Mr. TRULY. Those stairs only reached to the second floor, and they wouldn't have any way of getting up to the top without going to the back stairway.

            Mr. BELIN. All right.

            Mr. TRULY. So this is the logical stairway that goes all the way to the seventh floor.

            Mr. BELIN. And you are pointing to the stairway in what would be the northwest corner?

            Mr. TRULY. That is right.

 

                                                            222

 

Page 223

 

            Mr. BELIN. Now, you got to the elevator, and what did you do then?

            Mr. TRULY. I looked up. This is two elevators in the same well. This elevator over hero

            Mr. BELIN. You are pointing to the west one?

            Mr. TRULY. I am pointing to the west one. This elevator was on the fifth floor. Also, the east elevator-- as far as I can tell--both of them were on the fifth floor at that time.

            This elevator will come down if the gates are down, and you push a button.

            Representative FORD. Which elevator is that?

            Mr. TRULY. The west one. But the east one will not come down unless you get on it and bring it down. You cannot call it if the gates are down.

            Representative FORD. That is the east elevator?

            Mr. TRULY. The east elevator?

            There is a button and a little bell here. I pressed

            Mr. BELIN. You might put a "B" on Exhibit 362 by the elevator for "button."

            Mr. TRULY. That is right on this surface. There is a little button. I pressed the button and the elevator didn't move.

            I called upstairs , "Turn loose the elevator."

            Mr. BELIN. When you say call up, in what kind of a voice did you call?

            Mr. TRULY. Real loud. I suppose in an excited voice. But loud enough that anyone could have heard me if they had not been over stacking or making a little noise. But I rang the bell and pushed this button.

            Mr. BELIN. What did you call?

            Mr. TRULY. I said, "Turn loose the elevator." Those boys understand that language.

            Mr. BELIN. What does that mean?

            Mr. TRULY. That means if they have the gates up, they go pull the gates down, and when you press the button, you can pull it down.

            Mr. BELIN. And how many times did you yell that?

            Mr. TRULY. Two times.

            Mr. BELIN. After you had first pushed the button?

            Mr. TRULY. That is right. I had pressed the button twice I believe, and called up for the elevator twice.

            Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? First of all, did the elevator come down?

            Mr. TRULY. It did not.

            Mr. BELIN. All right. Then what did you do?

            Mr. TRULY. I went up on a run up the stairway.

            Mr. BELIN. Could you again follow--from Point B, could you show which way you went? All right.

            Mr. TRULY. What is this here?

            Mr. BELIN. This is to show this is a stairway, and there is a stairway above it, too. But you went up the stairs right here?

            Mr. TRULY. That is right.

            Mr. BELIN. Okay. And where was this officer at that time?

            Mr. TRULY. This officer was right behind me and coming up the stairway.

            By the time I reached the second floor, the officer was a little further behind me than he was on the first floor, I assume--I know.

            Mr. BELIN. Was he a few feet behind you then?

            Mr. TRULY. He was a few feet. It is hard for me to tell. I ran right on around to my left, started to continue on up the stairway to the third floor, and on up.

            Mr. BELIN. Now when you say you ran on to your left, did you look straight ahead to see whether there was anyone in that area, or were you intent on just going upstairs?

            Mr. TRULY. If there had been anybody in that area, I would have seen him on the outside. But I was content--I was trying to show the officer the pathway up, where the elevators--I mean where the stairways continued.

            Mr. BELIN. Now, I hand you what has been marked Exhibit 497.

 

                                                            223

 

Page 224

 

            (The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 497, for identification.)

            Mr. BELIN. This is entitled "Texas School Book Depository, Diagram of Second Floor."

            You can sit down, if you would, please, Mr. Truly.

            And would you, on Exhibit 497, if you would kind of take an arrow to show the route that you took going out-or up from the first floor, and starting up the stairs towards the third.

            Now, you marked that with pen.

            Could you put a "T" on that, if you would, please?

            Now, there appears to be some kind of a vestibule or hall of one kind or another with the No. 22 in a circle on it, on Exhibit 497. Is this completely clear, or are there books there from time to time?

            Mr. TRULY. No; that is always clear. There is a few cartons of office stock, invoices, blank invoices and stationery and stuff up and down here. But there is always a pathway. There is a post, right about where this 22 is. You can always clear it and come by there. I don't think there would ever be stock here that would obstruct your view of the other area across there.

            Mr. BELIN. Now, I hand you what has been marked Commission Exhibit 498.

            (The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 498 for identification.)

            Mr. BELIN. I ask you to state, if you know what this is.

            Mr. TRULY. Yes. This is the vestibule, when you first come up the stairs on the second floor--this is what you will find right there.

            Mr. BELIN. Now, as you take a look at the picture Exhibit 498, is this a post immediately to the left side of the picture, to the extreme left of the picture?

            Mr. TRULY. No.

            Mr. BELIN. What is this to the extreme left? Is that the wall for the staircase?

            Mr. TRULY. Yes; there is an opening on this side, and the staircase is back over here. This picture is just part of this vestibule out here.

            Mr. BELIN. And what direction does the camera appear to be pointing, or what is shown there?

            Mr. TRULY. It appears to be pointing east.

            Mr. BELIN. And I see a door with a glass in it.

            Could you show where on this diagram Exhibit 497 this door with the glass is?

            Do you see a number with an arrow pointing to the door?

            Mr. TRULY. That is it.

            Mr. BELIN. What number is that?

            Mr. TRULY. It is number 23.

            Mr. BELIN. All right. Number 23, the arrow points to the door that has the glass in it.

            Now, as you raced around, how far did you start up the stairs towards the third floor there?

            Mr. TRULY. I suppose I was up two or three steps before I realized the officer wasn't following me.

            Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

            Mr. TRULY. I came back to the second floor landing.

            Mr. BELIN. What did you see?

            Mr. TRULY. I heard some voices, or a voice, coming from the area of the lunchroom, or the inside vestibule, the area of 24.

            Mr. BELIN. All right. And I see that there appears to be on the second floor diagram, a room marked lunchroom.

            Mr. TRULY. That is right.

            Mr. BELIN. What did you do then?

            Mr. TRULY. I ran over and looked in this door No. 23.

            Mr. BELIN. Through the glass, or was the door open?

            Mr. TRULY. I don't know. I think I opened the door. I feel like I did. I don't remember.

            Mr. BELIN. It could have been open or it could have been closed, you do not remember?

 

                                                            224

 

Page 225

 

            Mr. TRULY. The chances are it was closed.

            Mr. BELIN. You thought you opened it?

            Mr. TRULY. I think I opened it. I opened the door back and leaned in this way.

            Mr. BELIN. What did you see?

            Mr. TRULY. I saw the officer almost directly in the doorway of the lunch-room facing Lee Harvey Oswald.

            Mr. BELIN. And where was Lee Harvey Oswald at the time you saw him?

            Mr. TRULY. He was at the front of the lunchroom, not very far inside he was just inside the lunchroom door.

            Mr. BELIN. All right.

            Mr. TRULY. 2 or 3 feet, possibly.

            Mr. BELIN. Could you put an "O" where you saw Lee Harvey Oswald?

            All right.

            You have put an "O" on Exhibit 497.

            What did you see or hear the officer say or do?

            Mr. TRULY. When I reached there, the officer had his gun pointing at Oswald. The officer turned this way and said, "This man work here?" And I said, "Yes."

            Mr. BELIN. And then what happened?

            Mr. TRULY. Then we left Lee Harvey Oswald immediately and continued to run up the stairways until we reached the fifth floor.

            Mr. BELIN. All right.

            Let me ask you this now. How far was the officer's gun from Lee Harvey Oswald when he asked the question?

            Mr. TRULY. It would be hard for me to say, but it seemed to me like it was almost touching him.

            Mr. BELIN. What portion of his body?

            Mr. TRULY. Towards the middle portion of his body.

            Mr. BELIN. Could you see Lee Harvey Oswald's hands?

            Mr. TRULY. Yes.

            Mr. BELIN. Could you see--

            Mr. TRULY. I am sure I could, yes. I could see most of him, because I was looking in the room on an angle, and they were this way.

            Mr. BELIN. When you say you were looking in the room on an angle--

            Mr. TRULY. What I mean--this door offsets the lunchroom door.

            Mr. BELIN. By this door, you mean door No. 23 is at an angle to door No. 24?

            Mr. TRULY. Yes. One this way and the other one is this way.

            Mr. BELIN. All right.

            Could you see whether or not Lee Harvey Oswald had anything in either hand?

            Mr. TRULY. I noticed nothing in either hand.

            Mr. BELIN. Did you see both of his hands?

            Mr. TRULY. I am sure I did. I could be wrong, but I am almost sure. I did.

            Mr. BELIN. About how long did Officer Baker stand there with Lee Harvey Oswald after you saw them?

            Mr. TRULY. He left him immediately after I told him--after he asked me, does this man work here. I said, yes. The officer left him immediately.

            Mr. BELIN. Did you hear Lee Harvey Oswald say anything?

            Mr. TRULY. Not a thing.

            Mr. BELIN. Did you see any expression on his face? Or weren't you paying attention?

            Mr. TRULY. He didn't seem to be excited or overly afraid or anything. He might have been a bit startled, like I might have been if somebody confronted me. But I cannot recall any change in expression of any kind on his face.

            Mr. BELIN. Now, I hand you what the reporter has marked as Exhibit 499.

            (The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 499 for identification.)

            Mr. BELIN. I ask you to state if you know what this is.

            Mr. TRULY. That is the interior of the lunchroom.

 

                                                            225

 

Page 226

 

            Mr. BELIN. And what direction does the camera appear to be pointing on Exhibit 499?

            Mr. TRULY. East.

            Mr. BELIN. And does this appear to be the doorway in the very foreground of the picture?

            Mr. TRULY. I believe so.

            Representative FORD. Which doorway would that be?

            Mr. TRULY. Number 24. The camera seems to be right in the doorway when that picture was taken. You cannot see the doorway very well.

            Mr. DULLES. May I ask you a question?

            Do you know why it was that the officer didn't follow you up the stairs, but instead was distracted, as it were, and went with Lee Harvey Oswald into the lunchroom?

            Mr. TRULY. I never knew until a day or two ago that he said he saw a movement, saw a man going away from him.

            Mr. DULLES. As he was going up the stairs?

            Mr. TRULY. As he got to the second floor landing. While I was going around, he saw a movement.

            Mr. DULLES. And he followed that?

            Mr. TRULY. That is right.

            Representative FORD. He saw a movement in the lunchroom or a man go into the lunchroom?

            Mr. TRULY. He saw the back of a man inside the door--I suppose door No. 23.

            But that isn't my statement. I didn't learn about that, you see, until the other day.

            Mr. BELIN. I believe we have some additional pictures of the lunchroom. Perhaps we can just briefly identify them.

            Here is a picture which has been marked Commission Exhibit 500.

            (The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 500 for identification.)

            Mr. BELIN. I will ask you to state what this is.

            Mr. TRULY. This is a picture of the lunchroom.

            Mr. BELIN. What direction is the camera facing there?

            Mr. TRULY. East.

            Mr. BELIN. What about Exhibit 501?

            (The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 501 for identification.)

            Mr. TRULY. This picture is part of the lunchroom. And I would say the camera must be facing northeast.

            Mr. BELIN. What about Exhibit 502?

            Mr. TRULY. This is the lunchroom looking west. Northwest, I would say.

            Mr. BELIN. Is this door clear to the left of the picture, the door in which you saw Officer Baker standing when he was talking to Lee Harvey Oswald?

            Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.

            Mr. BELIN. Now, Mr. Truly, you then went up to the third floor with Officer Baker.

            Mr. TRULY. We continued on until we reached the fifth floor.

            Mr. BELIN. Now, by the way, I have used the name Officer Baker. When did you find out what his name was?

            Mr. TRULY. I never did know for sure what his name was until he was

down to the building and you were interviewing him last week.

            Mr. BELIN. This was on Friday, March 20th

            Mr. TRULY. I had heard his name was Baker or Burton or various other names.

But I never did try to find out what his name was.

            Mr. BELIN. All right.

            (The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 502 for identification.)

            Mr. BELIN. Now, Mr. Truly, did you notice when you got to the third floor--first of all. On the second floor, was there any elevator there?

            Mr. TRULY. No, sir.

            Mr. BELIN. What about the third floor?

            Mr. TRULY. No, sir.

 

                                                            226

 

Page 227

 

            Mr. BELIN. Fourth floor?

            Mr. TRULY. No, I am sure not.

            Mr. BELIN. What about the fifth floor?

            Mr. TRULY. When we reached the fifth floor, the east elevator was on that floor.

            Mr. BELIN. What about the west elevator? Was that on the fifth floor?

            Mr. TRULY. No, sir. I am sure it wasn't, or I could not have seen the east elevator.

            Mr. BELIN. All right.

            Mr. TRULY. I am almost positive that it wasn't there.

            Mr. DULLES. You said you released the elevator and let it go down?

            Mr. TRULY. No; the east elevator was the one on the fifth floor.

            Mr. BELIN. Now, Exhibit 487 appears to be a diagram of the fifth floor. As I understand it, you might mark on that diagram the way you went from the stairs over to the east elevator.

            Mr. TRULY. Well, I started around towards the stairway, and then I noted that this east elevator was there. So I told the officer, "Come on, here is an elevator," and then we ran down to the east side, and got on the east elevator.

            Mr. BELIN. Could you put the letter "T" at the end of that line, please?

            All right.

            Now, where did you go with the east elevator, to what floor?

            Mr. TRULY. We rode the east elevator to the seventh floor.

            Mr. BELIN. Did you stop at the sixth floor at all?

            Mr. TRULY. No, sir.

            Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got to the seventh floor?

            Mr. TRULY. We ran up a little stairway that leads out through a little penthouse on to the roof.

            Mr. BELIN. What did you do on the roof?

            Mr. TRULY. We ran immediately to the west side of the building. There is a wall around the building that you cannot see over without getting your foot between the mortar of the stones and, or some such toehold. We did that and looked over the ground and the railroad tracks below. There we saw many officers and a lot of spectators, people running up and down.

            Mr. BELIN. Did the officer say to you why he wanted to go up to the roof?

            Mr. TRULY. No. At that time, he didn't.

            Mr. BELIN. Did he ever prior to meeting you again on March 20th tell you why he wanted to go on the roof?

            Mr. TRULY. No, sir.

            Mr. BELIN. Where did you think the shots came from?

            Mr. TRULY. I thought the shots came from the vicinity of the railroad or the WPA project, behind the WPA project west of the building.

            Mr. BELIN. Did you have any conversation with the officer that you can remember? About where you thought the shots came from?

            Mr. TRULY. Yes. When--some time in the course, I believe, after we reached the roof, the officer looked down over the boxcars and the railroad tracks and the crowd below. Then he looked around the edge of the roof for any evidence of anybody being there. And then looked up at the runways and the big sign on the-roof.

            He saw nothing.

            He came over. And some time about then I said, "Officer, I think"--let's back up.

            I believe the officer told me as we walked down into the seventh floor, "Be careful, this man will blow your head off."

            And I told the officer that I didn't feel like the shots came from the building.

            I said, "I think we are wasting our time up here," or words to that effect, "I don't believe these shots came from the building."

            Mr. BELIN. Did he say anything to that at all?

            Mr. TRULY. I don't recall exactly what he said. I believe he said, yes, or somebody said they did, or some such thing as that. I don't remember. I have heard so many things since, you know.

            Mr. BELIN. All right.

            Now, Mr. Truly, on March 20th, you and I visited about this particular incident

 

                                                            227

 

Page 228

 

you have related about the running into the building and up the stairs with this officer, is that correct?

            Mr. TRULY. That is correct.

            Mr. BELIN. And as a matter of fact you and Officer Baker and I tried to reconstruct the incident in an effort to determine how long it took you to do all this, is that correct?

            Mr. TRULY. That is correct.

            Mr. BELIN. And do you remember watching me getting over with Officer Baker in front of the sheriff's office on Market Street--pardon me Houston Street, with a stopwatch?

            Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.

            Mr. BELIN. And then you saw Officer Baker race his motorcycle over and come in front of the building, and then you ran in with him, is that correct?

            Mr. TRULY. That is correct.

            Mr. BELIN. And then what is the fact as to whether or not you and Officer Baker and I recreated the incident as you have testified to here, going into the lobby with the conversation you had with Officer Baker, and running into that swinging door, and going back to the elevator and pushing the elevator button, and then calling or yelling twice for the elevator to come down, and then coming up the stairs to the second floor. Do you remember that?

            Mr. TRULY. I remember that.

            Mr. BELIN. When we recreated that incident, did we walk or run?

            Mr. TRULY. We walked. We trotted.

            Mr. BELIN. We trotted.

            Did we get out of breath, do you remember?.

            Mr. TRULY. Yes.

            Mr. BELIN. Did we go at about the speed that you feel you went on that day with Officer Baker?

            Mr. TRULY. I think so--which was a little more than a trot, I would say.

            Mr. BELIN. Do you remember offhand what the stopwatch timed us at--I think we did it twice, is that correct?

            Mr. TRULY. No, sir--not from the time that he got on his motorcycle, I don't remember.

            Mr. BELIN. All right.

            Mr. TRULY. But I was thinking it was somewheres under 2 minutes. Between a minute and a half and 2 minutes.

            Mr. BELIN. Officer Baker, I think, will be able to testify to that in the morning.

            Representative FORD. But in reconstructing the incident, you went more or less at a similar pace, took about the same time you did on November 22d?

            Mr. TRULY. As far as I can tell; yes, sir.

            Mr. BELIN. You ran at about the same speed, do you believe?

            Mr. TRULY. Yes; I believe so.

            We tried to--we had a few people we had to push our way through to start in the building the other time, and possibly didn't run quite so fast at first.

            Mr. BELIN. Would you say that again?

            Mr. TRULY. I said when the officer and I ran in, we were shouldering people aside in front of the building, so-we possibly were slowed a little bit more coming in than we were when he and I came in March 20th. I don't believe so. But it wouldn't be enough to matter there.

            Mr. BELIN. Would you say that the reconstruction that we did on March 20th was a minimum or a maximum time?

            Mr. TRULY. Oh, I would say that would be the minimum time.

            Mr. BELIN. Mr. Truly, when you took the elevator to the fifth--from the fifth to the seventh floor, that east elevator did you see the west elevator at all as you passed the sixth floor, when you got to the seventh floor?

            Mr. TRULY. No, sir; because I could not see the west elevator while operating the east elevator.

            Mr. BELIN. You mean because you were not looking at it, or you just couldn't see it?

            Mr. TRULY. Well, the back of the east elevator is solid metal, and if I passed--yes; I could. I beg your pardon.

 

                                                            228

 

Page 229

 

            I could see it from the fifth floor. I didn't notice it anywheres up there. I wasn't really looking for it, however.

            Mr. BELIN. Now, after you got--when did you notice that west elevator next? If you know.

            Mr. TRULY. I don't know.

            Mr. BELIN. I believe you said when you first saw the elevators, you thought they were both on the same floor, the fifth floor.

            Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.

            Mr. BELIN. Then how do you explain that when you got to the fifth floor, one of the elevators was not there?

            Mr. TRULY. I don't know, sir. I think one of my boys was getting stock off the fifth floor on the back side, and probably moved the elevator at the time somewheres between the time we were running upstairs. And I would not have remembered that. I mean I wouldn't have really heard that, with the commotion we were making running up the enclosed stairwell.

            Mr. BELIN. Did you see anyone on the fifth floor?

            Mr. TRULY. Yes. When coming down I am sure I saw Jack Dougherty getting some books off the fifth floor.

            Now, this is so dim in my mind that I could be making a mistake.

            But I believe that he was getting some stock, that he had already gone back to work, and that he was getting some stock off the fifth floor.

            Mr. BELIN. You really don't know who was operating the elevator, then, is that correct?

            Mr. TRULY. That is correct.

            Mr. BELIN. What is your best guess?

            Mr. TRULY. My best guess is that Jack Dougherty was.

            Mr. BELIN. Now, after you got down from the seventh floor, you then went down to the sixth floor with Officer Baker?

            Mr. TRULY. Yes.

            Mr. BELIN. Did he look around on the sixth floor at all or not?

            Mr. TRULY. Just before we got on the elevator on the seventh floor, Officer Baker ran over and looked in a little room on the seventh floor, and glanced around on that floor, which is open, and it didn't take much of a search. And then we reached the sixth floor. I stopped. He glanced over the sixth floor quickly.

            Mr. BELIN. Could you see the southeast corner of the sixth floor from there?

            Mr. TRULY. I don't think so; no, sir. You could not.

            Mr. BELIN. Then what?

            Mr. TRULY. Then we continued on down, and we saw officers on the fourth floor.

            I don't recall that we stopped any more until we reached the first floor. But I do recall there was an officer on the fourth floor, by the time we got down that far.

            Mr. BELIN. All right.

            And then you got down eventually to the first floor?

            Mr. TRULY. That is right.

            Mr. BELIN. About how long after these shots do you think it took you to go all the way up and look around the roof and come all the way down again?

            Mr. TRULY. Oh, we might have been gone between 5 and 10 minutes. It is hard to say.

            Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got back to the first floor, or what did you see?

            Mr. TRULY. When I got back to the first floor, at first I didn't see anything except officers running around, reporters in the place. There was a regular madhouse.

            Mr. BELIN. Had they sealed off the building yet, do you know?

            Mr. TRULY. I am sure they had.

            Mr. BELIN. Then what?

            Mr. TRULY. Then in a few minutes--it could have been moments or minutes at a time like that--I noticed some of my boys were over in the west corner of the shipping department, and there were several officers over there taking their names and addresses, and so forth.

 

                                                            229

 

Page 230

 

            There were other officers in other parts of the building taking other employees, like office people's names. I noticed that Lee Oswald was not among these boys.

            So I picked up the telephone and called Mr. Aiken down at the other warehouse who keeps our application blanks. Back up there.

            First I mentioned to Mr. Campbell--I asked Bill Shelley if he had seen him, he looked around and said no.

            Mr. BELIN. When you asked Bill Shelley if he had seen whom?

            Mr. TRULY. Lee Oswald. I said, "Have you seen him around lately," and he said no.

            So Mr. Campbell is standing there, and I said, "I have a boy over here missing. I don't know whether to report it or not." Because I had another one or two out then. I didn't know whether they were all there or not. He said, "What do you think"? And I got to thinking. He said, "Well, we better do it anyway." It was so quick after that.

            So I picked the phone up then and called Mr. Aiken, at the warehouse, and got the boy's name and general description and telephone number and address at Irving.

            Mr. BELIN. Did you have any address for him in Dallas, or did you just have an address in Irving?

            Mr. TRULY. Just the address in Irving. I knew nothing of this Dallas address. I didn't know he was living away from his family.

            Mr. BELIN. Now, would that be the address and the description as shown on this application, Exhibit 496?

            Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.

            Mr. BELIN. Did you ask for the name and addresses of any other employees who might have been missing?

            Mr. TRULY. No, sir.

            Mr. BELIN. Why didn't you ask for any other employees?

            Mr. TRULY. That is the only one that I could be certain right then was missing.

            Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do after you got that information?

            Mr. TRULY. Chief Lumpkin of the Dallas Police Department was standing a few feet from me. I told Chief Lumpkin that I had a boy missing over here "I don't know whether it amounts to anything or not." And I gave him his description. And he says, "Just a moment. We will go tell Captain Fritz."

            Mr. BELIN. All right. And then what happened?

            Mr. TRULY. So Chief Lumpkin had several officers there that he was talking to, and I assumed that he gave him some instructions of some nature I didn't hear it. And then he turned to me and says, "Now we will go upstairs".

            So we got on one of the elevators, I don't know which, and rode up to the sixth floor. I didn't know Captain Fritz was on the sixth floor. And he was over in the northwest corner of the building.

            Mr. BELIN. By the stairs there?

            Mr. TRULY. Yes; by the stairs.

            Mr. BELIN. All right.

            Mr. TRULY. And there were other officers with him. Chief Lumpkin stepped over and told Captain Fritz that I had something that I wanted to tell him.

            Mr. BELIN. All right. And then what happened

            Mr. TRULY. So Captain Fritz left the men he was with and walked over about 8 or 10 feet and said, "What is it, Mr. Truly," or words to that effect.

            And I told him about this boy missing and gave him his address and telephone number and general description. And he says, "Thank you, Mr. Truly. We will take care of it.

            And I went back downstairs in a few minutes.

            There was a reporter followed me away from that spot, and asked me who Oswald was. I told the reporter, "You must have ears like a bird, or something. I don't want to say anything about a boy I don't know anything about. This is a terrible thing." Or words to that effect.

            I said, "Don't bother me. Don't mention the name. Let's find something out."

            So I went back downstairs with Chief Lumpkin.

            Mr. BELIN. When you got on the sixth floor, did you happen to go over to the southeast corner of the sixth floor at about that time or not?

 

                                                            230

 

Page 231

 

            Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I sure didn't.

            Mr. BELIN. When did you get over to the southeast corner of the sixth floor?

            Mr. TRULY. That I can't answer. I don't remember when I went over there. It was sometime before I learned that they had found either the rifle or the spent shell cases. It could have been at the time I went up and told them about Lee Harvey Oswald being missing. I cannot remember. But I didn't know it. I didn't see them find them, and I didn't know at the time I don't know how long they had the things.

            Mr. BELIN. There has been some-testimony here, Mr. Truly, about some bins for storing books on the fifth floor near the stairway. I am going to hand you an exhibit which has been marked as Commission Exhibit 490, and ask you to state, if you know--were you there when these pictures were taken on the fifth floor? On Friday, March 20th?

            The CHAIRMAN. The fifth floor?

            Mr. BELIN. The fifth floor; yes, sir.

            Mr. TRULY. Yes; I was, I believe. Some of them I may not have been when all of them were taken. I was not there when this picture was taken, no, sir.

            Mr. BELIN. You are familiar with those bins on the fifth floor, are you not?

            Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.

            Mr. BELIN. How long have those bins by the stairway been there?

            Mr. TRULY. Well, it would be hard for me to say, but they have been there, I suppose, almost from the time we moved in--nearly 2 years. They were there at the time of November 22.

            Mr. BELIN. On Commission Exhibit 487, the line marked "W", will you state whether or not this appears to be the approximate line where the bins are located?

            Mr. TRULY. Yes, it would be.

            Mr. BELIN. Can you see over those bins?

            Mr. TRULY. You cannot.

            Mr. BELIN. I mean when you are at the window--say you are in the southwest corner.

            Mr. Truly. No, sir; you cannot. They obscure the stairway.

            Mr. BELIN. All right.

            Now, there was a floor laying project that was going along on the sixth floor at about the time of November 22, is that correct?

            Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.

            Mr. BELIN. Handing you Commission Exhibit 483, could you state, if you know, approximately where on the sixth floor they were laying new plywood floor around November 22d?

            Mr. TRULY. This is it

            Mr. BELIN. This is north right here?

            Mr. TRULY. They were in this area right here.

            Mr. BELIN. Well, there is a blank line that appears to have a "W" at one end or the other. Would that be a fairly accurate?

            Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir; in the west end of the building.

            Mr. BELIN. Where they were laying the floor?

            Mr. TRULY. That is where they were laying the floor.

            Mr. BELIN. Now, when you were--were you familiar with the fact that they had moved books in the process of laying that floor?

            Mr. TRULY. I knew they had to. I didn't know where they moved them particularly until that time. I don't suppose I had been up on that floor in several days.

            Mr. BELIN. By that time, you mean November 22?

            Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.

            Mr. BELIN. Where did it appear that they had moved them?

            Mr. TRULY. They moved a long row of books down parallel to the windows on the south side, following the building, and had quite a lot of cartons on the north--let's see-- the southeast corner of the building.

            Mr. BELIN. Sometime on November 22d did you go to the southeast corner of the building?

            Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.

 

                                                            231

 

Page 232

 

            Mr. BELIN. Did you notice anything particularly about the books that were in the southeast corner?

            Mr. TRULY. I didn't at that time with the exception of a few cartons that were moved. But, I did not know any pattern that the boys used in putting these cartons up there. They were just piled up there more or less at that time

            Mr. BELIN. Well, handing you what has been marked as Exhibit 503, which is a picture, does this appear to portray the southeast corner of the sixth floor as you saw it on November 22d?

            Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.

            (The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit. No. 503 for identification.)

            Mr. BELIN. Now, I notice some rows of books along the east wall. Did those books go all the way to the corner or not?

            Mr. TRULY. They did not in front of the window extend very much in height, but they did go all the way on the floor to the corner of the building.

            Mr. BELIN. Was this prior to November 22d?

            Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.

            Mr. BELIN. When you got there on November 22d, did those books still go to the corner of the east wall of the sixth floor?

            Mr. TRULY. No, sir. There were several cartons that had been moved out of the corner and apparently placed on top of the cartons next to them in front of the east window -

            Mr. BELIN. Do you have any books that are called Rolling Readers?

            Mr. TRULY. Yes sir.

            Mr. BELIN. Do you know what floor those Rolling Readers are usually kept on?

            Mr. TRULY. The first floor and the sixth floor. Most of them are on the sixth floor.

            Mr. BELIN. Do you know where on the sixth floor the Rolling Readers are?

            Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.

            Mr. BELIN. Approximately where?

            Mr. TRULY. They were I would say they were thirty or forty feet from the corner. They were not in the area that the boys moved books from.

            Mr. BELIN. Well, handing you Exhibit 483, I wonder if you would mark with your pen the letters "RR" for Rolling Readers. Would there have been any occasion at all to move any Rolling Readers from the area you have marked on Exhibit 483 to the southeast corner of the sixth floor?

            Mr. TRULY. No, sir; because the boys had not finished much of the ply wood work, and they would-- none of that stock was moved at that time for any purpose.

            Mr. BELIN. Are the Rolling Reader cartons average size or small size or large size?

            Mr. TRULY. They are much smaller than the average size cartons on that floor.

            Mr. McCLOY. Do you in, tend to offer all of these exhibits en bloc later on?

            Mr. BELIN. Yes, sir.

            Now, handing you Commission Exhibit 504, there appear to be some boxes near a window on a floor of your building. And I note that on two of the boxes they are marked "Ten Rolling Readers." Are those the Rolling Reader cartons that you referred to, with the letters "RR" on Commission Exhibit 483

            (The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 504 for identification.)

            Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir; that is right.

            Representative FORD. The Rolling Reader boxes were not ordinarily in that southeast corner?

            Mr. TRULY. No, sir. That was not the place for them. They were 40 feet or so away.

            Representative FORD. May I ask--the job that Oswald had, how did you designate it?

            Mr. TRULY. Well, he filled orders.

            Representative FORD. He was an order filler?

            Mr. TRULY. Order filler.

 

                                                            232

 

Page 233

 

            Representative FORD. Do you keep records of the orders that are filled by each order filler every day?

            Mr. TRULY. Not every day; no, sir. Occasionally we would double check on the employees, or the checker would count up the number and give me the number each employee filled in that clay, or several days in succession for a whole week.

            Representative FORD. Would you know what orders Oswald filled November 22d?.

            Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I would not.

            Representative FORD. You would have no way of checking that?

            Mr. TRULY. No. They would have been some orders that he filled the 21st that were not checked and out of the house on the 22d. And I could not tell how many he filled or when he filled his orders, no, sir.

            Representative FORD. When an order filler fills an order, does he make his initial or mark on--

            Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir; he does. Up there where it says "L", which is layout, he puts his number, and then the checker puts his number under "C" when he checks the order and sees that it is all right, and sends it on for packing.

            Representative FORD. Well, it would seem to me that every order that was filled on a particular day by an order filler could be identified as to the individual

            Mr. TRULY. You see, we don't always get out our orders the same day they are shipped. The order fillers fill lots of orders, and they are filling orders on up to quitting time in the afternoon, and those wouldn't go out until the next day, or sometime, if they get ahead of the checker. They don't put the date on them when they fill them.

            Representative FORD. What I am trying to find out--is there any way to trace by the orders that were filled by Oswald on the morning of November 22d as to whether or not in the process of filling orders he was taken to the sixth floor?

            Mr. TRULY. No, sir; we could not tell whether he fired any orders that might be dated November 22d-- might have been filled--if they were dated November 22d and had Oswald's number on it, we would know that he filled those on November 22d. But if they were billed and dated on the 20th and 21st, and there was a number of those filled, we could not tell how many filled on the 22d.

            Representative FORD. Have you ever gone back through your orders for the--

            Mr. TRULY. No, sir.

            Representative FORD. Just to take a survey?

            Mr. TRULY. We have thousands and thousands of accounts, and they run from A to Z alphabetically in our files. We would have to take we would have to go through every invoice in each file, from A to Z, in order to find any orders he might have filled on that day. And it would he hard to prove that he filled them on that date because, unless we found one that had his number on it and was dated November 22d--because we know he wasn't there after that--but if it was dated November 21st, he could easily-have filled a good number of those orders that morning of the 22d. But we could not tell whether he filled them the 21st or the 22d.

            Mr. BELIN. Mr. Truly, in line with Congressman Ford's questions, was there ever a clipboard found in your building at all?

            Mr. TRULY. Yes sir. Sometime later there was a clipboard found that had two or three orders on it.

            Mr. BELIN. What were those orders dated?

            Mr. TRULY. I don't remember, sir.

            Mr. BELIN. Do you remember where the clipboard was found?

            Mr. TRULY. I later learned it was found up on the sixth floor, near the stairway, behind some cartons. I do not remember just exactly how many orders were on it, but I think it was only two or three.

            Mr. BELIN. Do you remember who found it?

            Mr. TRULY. A boy by the name of Frankie Kaiser.

            Mr. BELIN. Is he still one of your employs?

            Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.

 

                                                            233

731-219 O--64--vol.III---16

 

Page 234

 

            Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether this was ever identified as having ever belonged to any particular employee of yours?

            Mr. TRULY. Well, he brought the clipboard to Bill Shelley and told him about it, and he said, "This is an old clipboard I used, to use. This is the one that Oswald was using." It was a kind of homemade affair.

            Mr. BELIN. When you say he brought it to Bill Shelley, who are you referring to?

            Mr. TRULY. I am referring to Frankie Kaiser who brought the clipboard with the orders downstairs and told Bill Shelley that he had found Oswald's clipboard with some orders on it.

            Mr. BELIN. Had those orders ever been filled or not?

            Mr. TRULY. No, sir. You see, when they fill the orders, they take them off the clipboard. They may have 25 on the clipboard, and after a while they will have 15 or 10 or something.

            Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether or not those orders were ever eventually filled that were found on the clipboard?

            Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir; they were filled.

            Mr. BELIN. What did you do with the clipboard and the order blanks that were on there?

            Mr. TRULY. I think someone else filled the order blanks and the clipboard lay around there for a while until it was mentioned. I don't recall what happened to it. At the time nobody considered it of too much significance, I suppose that the boy was just filling orders up there and he had just thrown his clipboard over. I believe that someone from a government agency either got the clip-board or looked at it. I have this thing all mixed up. It hasn't been very long ago, you know, about the clipboard. I don't know the solution of it. They were trying to identify this clipboard just a short while ago for someone the FBI or the Secret Service, or it could be you, could it?

            Mr. BELIN. No, sir.

            Mr. TRULY. Just shortly before you.

            Mr. BELIN. Well, let me ask you this question?

            Are there any ways in which your orders are posted that show anything along the lines that Congressman Ford suggested as to who might fill an order or when an order would be posted? In other words, if you come to an order and you see that the order is dated maybe November 21st, but you do not know whether it was filled on November 21st or November 22d, would your posting system of entries on your ledger or journal in any way show when it was filled

            Mr. TRULY. No, sir. The date that we go by is the date the checker checks the order, and then he puts the date stamp on it. He puts it over on the table in a little conveyor belt, and the boys wrap it. When he separates the packing list and the invoice itself ---he puts the packing list and the label with the order. Then he dates the invoice as of that date, and it goes upstairs to be matched with the other copies, and then charged to the customer.

            Mr. BELIN. Well, you mentioned earlier that periodically your checkers get a check to ascertain how many orders were filled by the various employees. Do you know of any such check made on the morning of November 22d?

            Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I do not recall having made a check in several days before that. We would usually run a check of errors for a week, and then we would run a check occasionally of orders filled. And checking on the errors the various boys made maybe we have an unusual number for us of teachers writing in saying that they got the wrong book. So we try to check and see which one of these boys possibly was making these errors.

            Mr. BELIN. Is it your testimony that you do not recall any check being made on November 22d, or you are sure there was no check on November 22d?

            Mr. TRULY. There was no check that I recall. And I am sure there wasn't.

            (At this point, The Chairman left the hearing room.)

            Representative FORD. Could you tell us the approximate date that this individual found the clipboard and brought it to your attention?

            Mr. TRULY. No, sir.

            Representative FORD. Was it a few days after the assassination, or several weeks?

 

                                                            234

 

Page 235

 

            Mr. TRULY. I think it was just a few days afterward because now, we would have to check upstairs. If these orders are not filled and processed and gone upstairs and matched with the copies in several days there, then we go looking for the order like the boys missed them. We have copies in the office, and

they do not come through in a reasonable time, we think that someone has lost some orders, and we get to checking them. If we cannot find them, we have to duplicate the orders.

            Representative FORD. In other words, if 2 weeks had passed without the order being filled according to your records, you would have instituted a more thorough search to find out where the unfilled order blank was.

            Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir--less than that, I would say, because we do not---our customers would probably write to us before then, if they did not receive it. But the girls on it--usually 3 or 4 days, if those orders have not cleared, they come to check about them, to see if we are holding one back because we do not have the stock, or if we have lost it, the boys have lost it.

            (At this point, The Chairman entered the hearing room.)

            Representative FORD. Who is the man who brought the clipboard to you?

            Mr. TRULY. Bill Shelley called my attention to it. At that time I do not recall anything being done except maybe one of the boys filling the orders and just forgetting about that part of--

            Representative FORD. To your best recollection, who gave the clipboard to Bill Shelley?

            Mr. TRULY. Frankie Kaiser.

            Representative FORD. Was he an employee of the Texas School Book Depository?

            Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.

            Representative FORD. Do you know generally where Kaiser found the clipboard?

            Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.

            Representative FORD. Can you point it out to us on one of the exhibits?

            Mr. BELIN. The diagram of the sixth floor has been marked as Exhibit No. 483. Perhaps you can mark on Exhibit No. 483 with the letter "O" where you think the clipboard was found.

            I might at this point on the record say for the Commission that Exhibit 506 purports to be the position of the clipboard when it was discovered--the cupboard is circled, and the number on the picture, on Exhibit 506, is numbered 36, and on the Exhibit 483 appears at the end of the arrow with the number 36 on it, which is near where Mr. Truly put his "C". And the number 35 on that same exhibit--the number 35 will be shown tomorrow to be the position of the rifle when it was discovered.

            Representative FORD. And 36 is the position of the clipboard?

            Mr. BALL. I don't think you can take that as evidence.

            Mr. BELIN. This is not evidence. This is just background.

            Mr. BALL. This is really an offer of proof on our part. That is the most you can consider it--because we intend to take the deposition of Kaiser who found the clipboard.

            Representative FORD. Is there someone here, the staff or Mr. Truly, who knows approximately when the clipboard was found?

            Mr. BELIN. Yes, sir. I can give you that date in about one minute. According to our records, Frankie Kaiser, when interviewed on December 2d, said that on the morning of December 2d he found a clipboard which he had made and which he had turned over to Lee Harvey Oswald with orders. And we have a list of the orders also in one of the Commission documents. It is Document 7, page 381.

            But we are going to have to actually take the deposition of Mr. Kaiser, which we will do when we go to Dallas next week or the week after, or whenever we get to him.

            Representative FORD. Off the record.

            (Discussion off the record.)

            Representative FORD. Back on the record.

            Mr. BELIN. Three more pictures, Mr. Truly.

            I hand you what the reporter has marked as Exhibit 505.

 

                                                            235

 

Page 236

 

            (The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 505 for identification.)

            I ask you to state if this appears to be the stairway leading from the second to the third floor, or can't you tell?

            Mr. TRULY. I believe so; yes.

            Mr. BELIN. And that is the stairway that you went up two or three steps before you came down to get Officer Baker?

            Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.

            Mr. BELIN. Now, I note with regard to the floor plan on the second floor that when you want to get to the lunchroom from the elevator, if you want to get to the lunchroom from the west elevator you have to walk-in the area through that door marked number 23. Is that correct?

            Mr. TRULY. That's right.

            Mr. BELIN. If you want to get there from the east elevator, what do you do?

            Mr. TRULY. Well, there is a side door, a north door, coming into the lunch-room that they can come through.

            Mr. BELIN. Does that north door appear on Exhibit 501?

            Mr. TRULY. Yes.

            Mr. BELIN. That appears to be located east of the Coca Cola machine, is that correct?

            Mr. TRULY. That is correct.

            Mr. BELIN. Now, if someone wanted to take an elevator and get off on the second floor, and go through the back door to get to the lunchroom, would there be any way for that elevator to leave the second floor other than for someone to get back on that east elevator and personally operate it?

            Mr. TRULY. No, sir.

            Mr. BELIN. In other words, the east elevator you have to actually have an operator on it and it cannot be moved by just pushing a button?

            Mr. TRULY. That's right.

            Mr. BELIN. One other question. Just what are Rolling Readers? Is Rolling a company or what is it?

            Mr. TRULY. Well, if you would look at it you wouldn't know what it was after you opened the box. But it is a new concept in material for reading for children in the first grade, kindergarten and so forth. They are little blocks with words on them that roll out, and then you turn them over. It is something like know way back in my childhood they would use number blocks and things like that. But it has words and sentences and things they can put together.

            Mr. DULLES. A square like dice?

            Mr. TRULY. That's right. It looks like dice, only they are bigger. They have the theory that these can interest a lot of children because of the noise they put out here, and they pick them up when they hit the floor and put them together into sentences and things. Something to stimulate the interest of children who are not quite as advanced in their reading.

            Mr. BELIN. Are they relatively heavy or light cartons?

            Mr. TRULY. They are very light.

            Mr. BELIN. The cartons themselves. About how much would a carton of 10 Rolling Readers weigh?

            Mr. TRULY. I don't think they would weigh over between five and ten pounds.

            Mr. BELIN. And by 10 Rolling Readers you mean there were 10 sets of the Rolling Readers in each of these cartons shown on Exhibit 504?

            Mr. TRULY. That's right.

            Mr. BELIN. At this time we offer in evidence exhibits 490 through 506 inclusive.

            Mr. McCLOY. They may be admitted.

            (The documents heretofore marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 490 through 506, inclusive, for identification, were received in evidence.)

            Mr. McCLOY. Truly, I think I heard you say when you were describing the first contact that you had with Oswald that you said, "That is the last time I saw him until November 16th."

            Did I hear you say that?

            Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I did not. If I did, it was a mistake. I saw him on October 16th, the morning he came to work.

 

                                                            236

 

Page 237

 

            Mr. McCLOY. I put down here that was the last time you had seen him until November 16th.

            Mr. TRULY. For the record, if I said that, that is wrong. I meant October 16th.

            The CHAIRMAN. Which was the next morning?

            Mr. TRULY. That was the next morning after he was told to come to work.

            Mr. DULLES. Do you recall, Mr. Truly, whether you hired any personnel for work in this particular building, in the School Depository, after the 15th of October and before the 22d of November?

            Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I don't recall hiring anyone else other than Oswald for that building the same day that I hired Oswald. I believe, if I am not mistaken, I hired another boy for a temporary job, and put him in the other warehouse at 1917 North Houston.

            Mr. DULLES. At a different warehouse?

            Mr. TRULY. At a different warehouse. He was laid off November 15th, I believe November 15th, or something like that.

            Mr. DULLES. What I was getting at is whether an accomplice could have gotten in in that way. That is why I was asking the question.

            Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I don't recall. Actually, the end of our fall rush--if it hadn't existed a week or 2 weeks longer, or if we had not been using some of our regular boys putting down this plywood, we would not have had any need for Lee Oswald at that time, which is a tragic thing for me to think about.

            Mr. McCLOY. Mr. Truly, while Oswald was in your employ, did you have any inquiries made of you by any of the United States agencies, such as FBI, regarding him?

            Mr. TRULY. No, sir; nothing ever.

            Mr. DULLES. Did Oswald mention to you anything about his trip to Russia and return from Russia?

            Mr. TRULY. No, sir; he did not. He just told me that he just recently was

discharged from the Marines with an honorable discharge. And I suppose that if he had had some background of a few jobs, skipping here and there, I might have investigated those jobs thoroughly.

            Mr. DULLES. He did not tell you about those short-time jobs he had?

            Mr. TRULY. No. The thing is I thought he was just discharged from the service, and we have worked with boys in the past, and they have gone on and got on their feet and got a better job. And I did not give it a thought that he was really just not discharged from the Marines.

            Mr. BELIN. Mr. Truly, you mentioned the fact that you thought Jack Dougherty was the one operating that west elevator. Is that correct?

            Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.

            Mr. BELIN. Could you tell us a little bit about Jack Dougherty?

            Mr. TRULY. Jack Dougherty has been working for us 12 or 14 years. Until we moved into this building, he has been mostly in our State Department, the building at 1917 North Houston. He would fill orders for--that called for many cartons of books on a three-textbook-order basis to the various schools in Texas. And he seemed to be intelligent and smart and a hard worker. The main thing is he just worked all the time.

            I have never had any occasion to have any hard words for Jack. A few times he would get a little bit---maybe do a little something wrong, and I would mention it to him, and he would just go to pieces--not anything--but anything the rest of the day or the next day would not be right. [Deletion.] He is a great big husky fellow. I think he is 39 years old. He has never been married. He has no interest in women. He gets flustered, has a small word for it, at times. He has never had any trouble. He is a good, loyal, hard working employee. He always has been.

            Mr BELIN. Would you _consider him of average intelligence?

            Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir. I think what is wrong with him mostly is his emotional makeup. I would say that for the work he is doing, he is of average intelligence.

 

                                                            237

 

Page 238

 

            Mr. BELIN. When you got to the fifth floor, as I understand it, the west elevator was not there, but when you started up from the first floor, you thought it was on the fifth floor.

            Mr. TRULY. No. When I came down from the second floor---from the seventh floor with the officer, I thought I saw Jack Dougherty on the fifth floor, which he would have had plenty of time to move the elevator down and up and get some stock and come back.

            Mr. BELIN. But when you got to the fifth floor that west elevator was not there?

            Mr. TRULY. No, sir.

            Mr. BELIN. Was it on any floor below the fifth floor?

            Mr. TRULY. I didn't look.

            Mr. BELIN. As you were climbing up the floors, you did not see it?

            Mr. TRULY. No, sir.

            Mr. BELIN. And if it wasn't on the fifth floor when you got there, it could have been on the sixth or seventh, I assume.

            Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I don't believe so, because I think I would have heard or seen it coming downstairs when I got on the fifth floor elevator, on the east side.

            Mr. BELIN. Well, suppose it was just stopped on the sixth floor when you got on the fifth floor elevator. Would you have seen it then?

            Mr. TRULY. I think so, yes, sir. As we started up from the fifth floor, you could see the top of it at an angle.

            Mr. BELIN. Were you looking in that direction as you rode up on the fifth floor, or were you facing the east?

            Mr. TRULY. No, sir. I don't know which way I was looking. I was only intent on getting to the seventh floor.

            Mr. BELIN. So you cannot say when you passed the sixth floor whether or not an elevator was there?

            Mr. TRULY. I cannot.

            Mr. BELIN. When you got to the seventh floor, you got out of the east elevator.

Was the west elevator on the seventh floor?

            Mr. TRULY. No, sir.

            Mr. BELIN. Are you sure it was not on the seventh floor?

            Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.

            Mr. BELIN. Did you hear the west elevator running at any time when you were riding the elevator from the fifth to the seventh?

            Mr. TRULY. I was not aware of it.

            Mr. BELIN. All right. I have no further questions.

            The CHAIRMAN. Any other questions?

            Representative FORD. How many employees do you have in the building on the corner of Houston and Elm?

            Mr. TRULY. I cannot tell you the figures, the total number of the office and all employees. We had about 15, I think. We had 19-warehouse and order-filler boys in both warehouses, and there are only four or five down at the other place. I think we had 15 men working in our warehouse at Houston and Elm on that day.

            Representative FORD. On November 22d.

            Mr. DULLES. Would all of them normally have had access to the sixth floor, or might have gone to the sixth floor?

            Mr. TRULY. Possibly any--possibly so. We have one man that checks. He hardly fills any orders. And we have one or two that write up freight. But any of the order-fillers there might be a possibility--there might be a possibility they might need something off the sixth floor.

            Representative FORD. When you noticed the police assembling the employees after the assassination, what prompted you to think that Oswald was not among them?

            Mr. TRULY. I have asked myself that many times. I cannot give an answer. Unless it was the fact that I knew he was on the second floor, I had seen him 10 or 15 minutes, or whatever it was, before that. That might have brought that boy's name to my mind--because I was looking over there and he was the only one I missed at that time that I could think of. Subconsciously it

 

                                                            238

 

Page 239

 

might have been because I saw him on the second floor and I knew he was in the building.

            Representative FORD. Had there been any traits that you had noticed from the time of his employment that might have made you think then that there was a connection between the shooting and Oswald?

            Mr. TRULY. Not at all. In fact, I was fooled so completely by the sound of--the direction of the shot, that I did not believe still did not believe maybe I could not force myself to believe, that the shots came from that building until I learned that they found the gun and the shells there. So I had no feeling whatever that they did come from there. I am sure that did not bring Oswald in my mind. But it was just the fact that they were trying to get people's names.

            Mr. DULLES. When you reported that Oswald was missing, do you recall whether you told the police that he had been on the second floor?

            Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I did not.

            Mr. DULLES. You did not?

            Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I just said, "I have a man that is missing. I don't know whether it means anything, but this is the name."

            Representative FORD. Do you know about what time that was that you told the police?

            Mr. TRULY. I could be wrong, but I think it was around 15--between 15 minutes or 20 minutes after the shots, or something. I could be as far off as 5 minutes or so. I don't know. I did not seem to think it was very long. We might have spent more time up on the roof and coming down, and then I might have walked out in the shipping department. Everybody was running up asking questions. Time could fool me. But I did not think it was but about 15 or 20 minutes later.

            Representative FORD. In your description of Oswald to Captain Fritz, did you describe the kind of clothes that Oswald had on that day?

            Mr. TRULY. I don't know, sir. No, sir; I just told him his name and where he lived and his telephone number and his age, as 23, and I said 5 feet, 9, about 150 pounds, light brown hair--whatever I picked up off the description there. I did not try to depend on my memory to describe him. I just put down what was on this application blank. That's the reason I called Mr. Aiken, because I did not want to mislead anybody as to a description. I might call a man brown-halted, and he might be blonde.

            Mr. DULLES. When you, and the officer saw Oswald in the luncheon room. did any words pass between you?

            Mr. TRULY. No. The officer said something to the boy.

            Mr. DULLES. I mean between you and Oswald.

            Mr. TRULY. No, sir. Oswald never said a word. Not to me.

            Mr. DULLES. What was he doing?

            Mr. TRULY. He was just standing there.

            Mr. DULLES. Did he have a coke?

            Mr. TRULY. No, sir.

            Mr. DULLES. No drink?

            Mr. TRULY. No drink at all. Just standing there.

            Mr. DULLES. Anything about his appearance that was startling or unusual?

            Mr. TRULY. No, sir. No, sir; I didn't see him panting like he had been running or anything.

            Mr. DULLES. Didn't appear to be doing anything special, moving in any direction?

            Mr. TRULY. No, sir. He was standing still facing the doorway to the lunch-room. The officer was there with a gun pointed at him, around towards his middle, almost touching.

            Mr. DULLES. How long before the President's actual visit on the 22d of November did you know of the visit and of the route that he was going to take.

            Mr. TRULY. Well, I think they said it was announced 72 hours before the assassination that he would take that route.

            Mr. DULLES. Was there any discussion, as far as you know, among your employees, of the fact that the procession would go near the School Depository?

            Mr. TRULY. No, sir; not that I know of.

 

                                                            239

 

Page 240

 

            Mr. McCLOY. Did you ever have any reason to suspect any other member--any other of your boys of being in any way connected with this affair?

            Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I never have found anything or any actions to make me feel that they might be connected with it.

            Mr. McCLOY. You never observed Oswald conversing with any strange or unidentified characters during his employment with you?

            Mr. TRULY. Never.

            Mr. DULLES. Did Oswald have any visitors as far as you know?

            Mr. TRULY. Never knew of a one; no, sir.

            Mr. McCLOY. Did he have the use of a telephone when he was in the building?

            Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir. We have a telephone on the first floor that he was free to use during his lunch hour for a minute. He was supposed to ask permission to use the phone. But he could have used the phone.

            Mr. DULLES. Pay telephone or office telephone?

            Mr. TRULY. No, sir; it is a regular office telephone. It is a pushbutton type.

            Mr. McCLOY. Did he strike you as being a frequent user of that telephone?

            Mr. TRULY. I never remember ever seeing him on the telephone.

            Mr. DULLES. Would you have any record or be able to find out now whether he had ever used it?

            Mr. TRULY. No, sir.

            Mr. McCLOY. You did not see him on November 22d with any package or any bundle?

            Mr. TRULY. No, sir.

            Mr. BELIN. Mr. Truly, when we were there on March 20th, did you take a walk down from the southeast corner window on the sixth floor with Officer Baker and a Secret Service Agent Howlett--we walked along from that window at the southeast corner of the sixth floor, walked along the east wall to the northeast corner of the building, and then across there around the elevators, and Secret Service Agent Howlett simulated putting a rifle at the spot where the rifle was found; and then we took the stairs down to the second floor lunch-room where Officer Baker encountered Lee Harvey Oswald? You remember us doing that?

            Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.

            Mr. BELIN. How fast were we going--running, trotting, walking or what?

            Mr. TRULY. Walking at a brisk walk, and then a little bit faster, I would say.

            Mr. BELIN. You remember what time that was? How long did it take?

            Mr. TRULY. It seemed to me like it was a minute and 18 seconds, and a minute and 15 seconds. We tried it twice. I believe that is about as near as I remember.

            Mr. BELIN. If a person were in that southeast corner window, just knowing the way the books were laid up there, would that have been the most practicable route to use to get out of there, to get down the stairs?

            Mr. TRULY. I believe so. I believe it to be.

            Mr. McCLOY. In your judgment, you think that is the route that Oswald took?

            Mr. TRULY. I think--he had two possible routes there. One of them, he could come half way down the east wall and down this way, but he would have to make one more turn. But if he came all the way down the east wall to where the rows of books stop, he had a straight run toward the sixth floor stairs.

            Mr. DULLES. You do not think he used any of the elevators at any time to get from the sixth to the second floor?

            Mr. TRULY. You mean after the shooting? No, sir; he just could not, because those elevators, I saw myself, were both on the fifth floor, they were both even. And I tried to get one of them, and then when we ran up to the second floor--it would have been impossible for him to have come down either one of those elevators after the assassination. He had to use the stairway as his only way of getting down--since we did see the elevators in those positions.

            Mr. DULLES. He could not have taken it down and then have somebody else go up to, that floor and leave it?

            Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I don't believe he would have had time for that.

            Representative FORD. He couldn't have taken an elevator down and then sent it up to a higher floor?

 

                                                            240

 

Page 241

 

            Mr. TRULY. No, sir. Yes; he could. I suppose he could put his hand through the slotted bars and touched one of the upper floors.

            Mr. BELIN. On both elevators?

            Mr. TRULY. That is just the west one only.

            Representative FORD. That was feasible, even though it might be a little difficult?

            Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.

            Representative FORD. There was no button on the outside that permitted him to send an elevator up to a higher floor?

            Mr. TRULY. No, sir. It would take him quite a little job to get his hand all through there and press one.

            Mr. DULLES. Would he have to break any glass to do it?

            Mr. TRULY. No, sir. The car gate and then there was an outside gate slatted---slats about this far apart.

            Mr. McCLOY. When you entered the building with the officer behind you, when you were presumably trying to get to the roof, there had been no cordon at that time thrown around the building?

            Mr. TRULY. No, sir.

            Mr. McCLOY. So that Oswald could have slipped out without an officer having been at the doorway at that point?

            Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir; I think so. There were many officers running down west of the building. It appears many people thought the shots came from there because of the echo or what.

            Mr. DULLES. Is it your view he went out the front door rather than one of the back doors?

            Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir; it is. From the nature. from the direction he was walking through the office, and the front stairway, to reach the second floor--it is my view that he walked down the front stairs and just out through the crowd there, probably a minute or two before the police had everything stopped.

            Mr. McCLOY. From what you know of these young men who testified before you today, are they trustworthy?

            Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir; I think they are. They are good men. They have been with me, most of them, for some time. I have no reason to doubt their word. I do know that they have been rather, as the expression goes, shook up about this thing, especially this tall one, Bonnie Williams. He is pretty superstitious, I would say. For 2 or 3 weeks the work was not normal, or a month. The boys did not put out their normal amount of work. Their hearts were not in it. But after that, they have picked up very well. They are doing their work well.

            Mr. BELIN. If we can go off the record for just a moment.

            (Discussion off the record.)

            The CHAIRMAN. Back on the record.

            Mr. TRULY. I thank you very much.

            The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, sir. You have helped us a good deal. We will recess at this time until 9 o'clock tomorrow morning.

            (Whereupon, at 6 p.m. the President's Commission recessed.)