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Duran,
Sylvia HSVA Volume III SELECT
COMMITTEE ON ASSASSINATIONS Name:
Silvia Tirado (Duran)
Date: June 6, 1978 Time:______________
Address:____________________
Place:____________________
____________________ Interview: Cornwell:
Would you like to state your name? Tirado:
Silvia Tirado Bazan. Cornwell:
And where's your present home address? Tirado?
Avenida Universidad 1900 Edificio
12 Departmento 402
Colonia Numero De Terrenos Cornwell:
For the record, my name is Gary Cornwell, and
with me here is Ed Lopez, Harold Leap and Dan
Hardway. We represent the
House Select Committee
on assassinations of the Congress of the United
States. Also with us here
today representing
the Mexican Goverment is Honorio Escondon, Dr.
Alfonso Orozco Contreras. Today
is June 6, 1978
and the time is approximately 5:45 in the afternoon.
Would you tell us what your date and place of birth is? Tirado:
22nd of November, 1937. Cornwell:
You speak English so if you like my questions Interviewer
Signature______________________________________ Typed
Signature: Gary Cornwell Date
Transcribed: br 6-19-78 Page
7 7 Silvia
Tirado Interview Page
2.
translated we'll be happy to, and likewise, if you'd like to
answer in English that would be fine, or if you'd rather
answer in Spanish, we'll translate it. Tirado:
I try to speak in English. Cornwell:
All right. If you have any
question about the what I phrase
something or you don't understand it, simply ask and Mr. Lopez
will translate it for you.
Your name in 1963 was what? Tirado:
Silvia Tirado de Duran. Cornwell:
And your husband at that time was who? Tirado?
Horacio Duran. Cornwell:
Are you presently employed? Tirado:
Yes. Cornwell:
Where's that? Tirado:
Social Security. Cornwell:
Prior to that, what jobs did
you hold? Tirado:
A long while, Social Security. I
used to write. Cornwell:
And any other jobs? Have you
held any other jobs? Tirado:
No. Cornwell:
At one time you worked for the Cuban Consulate. Tirado:
Yes. Cornwell:
Is that the only other job you ever held? Tirado:
No. Page
8 8 Page
3. Cornwell:
Well, let's say
back since about 1960, could you tell us
what the history of your employment is?
Have you had many
jobs? Tirado:
I don't remember exactly, but uh, I used to work for the
Olympic Games. I was a
translator for two months. And uh,
another three months I used to work for the, I don't know, it
was an Exhibit of Hispanic Art that was, I don't know he went
all over the world and I helped him to choose the pieces and
as translator. I was married
in 1960. I separate in '68,
July '68 and I start working. Cornwell:
During 1963, did you hold any jobs during that year other than
your employment at the Cuban Consulate? Tirado:
No. Cornwell:
When did you first obtain the job at the Consulate and how did
you obtain it. Tirado:
Well, because I was uh, coordinating the Cuban, the
Mexican-Cuban institute, the cultural Institute in '62, I
think, and that's where I met some people.
Yes. Cornwell:
That was a private organization, is that correct? Tirado:
It's not exactly private I
don't know because all the
countries have--there is the American Institute, there is the
Russian Institute, there is the French Institute.
It's
cultural relations between the countries. Cornwell:
Was that associated with the Mexican government? Page
9 9 Silvia
Tirado Interview Page
4. Tirado:
I don't know exactly, but I think--you know that.
(Asks Orozco) (Translation)
The objective is to present culturally the different embassies
of Orozco
and consulates that are in
Cornwell:
What was you job with that organization? Tirado:
Coordinator. Cornwell:
And in connection with that, did you know any of the employees
at the Cuban Consulate? Tirado:
Yes, at the Cultrual Attache. Cornwell:
And what were the names of those persons? Tirado:
Teresa Proenza and Luis Alberu. Cornwell:
And who? Tirado:
Luis Alberu Cornwell:
Did you in any other way know any of t he other employees at
the Consulate? Tirado:
Yes, well I knew Azcue, Eusebio Azcue who was a consul, and
uh, Maria Carman Olivari -- she's dead. Cornwell:
She, in the summer of 1963, was a secretary.
Is that correct?
(If you nod you head, the recorder will not make any record of
what your answer is.) Tirado:
Yes. Page
10 10 Silvia
Tirado Interview Page
3. Cornwell:
Would you then explain to us how it was that you obtained the
job at the Consulate? Tirado:
Because my friend Maria Carman, she was dead--she had an
accident, and during the funeral I told Azcue that if he wants
me to help him, for some people come from
him. And of course he says
yes. They need some people they
can trust, and I'd been working in the Institute.
So... Cornwell:
How was it that you knew Eusebio Azcue by this time? Tirado:
I don't remember, because he was uh, he was an Architect and
he knew a lot of people, friends of ours, I mean my husband
and I. Cornwell:
Had he lived in Tirado:
Yes, yes. Cornwell:
And, because of his occupation, he would have known your
husband. Is that correct? Tirado:
Yeah, more or less. Cornwell:
Your husband Horatio was also an architect at that time. Tirado:
Industrial designer. Yes,
sir. Cornwell:
Approximately when was it that you first obtained the job? Tirado:
the end of July or August, early August.
I don't Page
11 11 Silvia
Tirado Interview Page
5.
remember exactly. Cornwell:
And for how long did you continue to work there? Tirado:
Three or four months. Cornwell:
How long after the assassination of President Kennedy did you
work there? Tirado:
Only two days. Cornwell:
During that period of time what were the hours of operation of
the consulate? Tirado:
It was about 9:30 or 10:00 to 2:00 and in the afternoon about
5:00 to 8:00 or something. If
we have a lot of work, we
stayed longer. Cornwell:
The hours were 10:00 to 2:00 and then 5:00 to 8:00.
Is that
correct? Tirado:
Yes, that's true. Cornwell:
Was the Consulate open for visitors during both of those sets
of hours? Tirado:
No, it was just in the morning. Cornwell:
Would you mind sketching for us what the physical layout of
the Consulate looked like at that time?
(pause) You have
drawn a rectangular shape. What
formed the outside of it?
Was it a solid wall around the outside?
Was the outside of
the premises a wall? Tirado:
Yes. Cornwell:
All right. And we'll just
mark it the way you Page
12 12 Silvia
Tirado Interview Page
7.
drew it. In the lower
left-hand corner, there is a small box
you drew. What is that? Tirado:
The consular. Cornwell:
That's the consulate's office? Tirado:
Yes. Cornwell:
All right. We'll just put a
one in that box, so we'll know
that's the consulate's office. Then,
the door was... where,
on the corner?..you remember the name of the streets, still
today? Tirado:
This is Tacubayo. this is
Francisco Marquez. You want me to
write it down? Cornwell:
If you remember, yes. Tirado:
Here were the houses. Cornwell:
All right. You've labeled
three sides of the building with
street names and on the fourth side which on the top of the
drawing, you said they are houses. Correct? Tirado:
Yes. Cornwell:
What is in the long triangular shape on the drawing above the
Consular office? Tirado:
It was the commercial office. Cornwell:
All right. We'll just put a
two in there. That's.. Tirado:
And here was the cultural office. Cornwell:
And behind that, we'll mark it with a three, was the cultural
office. In the center of the
drawing Page
13 13 Silvia
Tirado Interview Page
3.
is what? Tirado:
The Embassy. Cornwell:
All right. We'll put a four
in that. That's the Embassy.
And what's the small box in the lower right-hand corner? Tirado:
I don't know how to say it in English. Cornwell:
An entryway? Lopez:
Housekeeper. Cornwell:
Oh, a housekeeper? Okay.
We'll put a five in there. What
is
all the rest of the space inside the premises? Tirado:
Garden, it was garden. And
here was the entrance for the
cars. Cornwell:
And where you indicated there was an entrance for cars, we'll
mark that seven. And all the
interior space which was garden,
we'll mark with an eight. Tirado:
Down here there was a movie room. Cornwell:
Where, behind the...? Tirado:
Behind the cultural room? Cornwell:
Want to draw that? Tirado:
No, because this is the first floor. Cornwell:
Oh, it was on the second floor. Tirado:
Yeah. On the first floor was
a projection...movies Page
14 14 Silvia
Tirado Interview Page
9. Cornwell:
Were the space which we marked one, two, three and also four,
were they all two-story? Tirado:
Yeah. Cornwell:
Okay. And above the space
marked one, what was there? Tirado:
The Consulate. Cornwell:
So it was on two floors. Tirado:
No, there was another floor over here but it was belongs to
the commercial... Only on the first floor was the Consultae. Cornwell:
I see. What would be behind
the Consulate on the first floor?
In this area marked two? Tirado:
I don't remember. Cornwell:
You don't remember. So, where
we marked two, that was a
second story in that area. Correct? Tirado:
Warehouse perhaps. Cornwell:
Just a storage area or something like that, perhaps, in the
lower area marked two. In the
space marked number one, which
was the Consular's office, who all occupied that area? Tirado:
Well, Consul, the Vice Consul and the secretary. Cornwell:
Which was you. Tirado:
Yes. Cornwell:
During the time that we're interested in.
Page
15 15 Silvia
Tirado Interview Page
10.
The Consul's name of course was Eusebio Azcue.
The Vice
Consul's name was what? Tirado:
I don't remember. Cornwell:
All right. Tirado:
This was Consulate. Cornwell:
All right. You have divided
the area that we originally
marked number one into two units. The
smaller unit indicates
where the Consul sat and you sat in a larger reception area
in the front?
All right. And then, behind
the Consul's office, was there
another door? You marked that
with a heavier area, and that
would be where he could walk out into the courtyard.
Is that
corret. So if you wanted to
get into the Consul's office,
including the reception area from the courtyard, you needed to
walk through the Consul's office. Is
that accurate? Tirado:
Yes. Cornwell:
Now, what kind of a door was at the corner, the lower
left-hand corner here, so that if one were to walk from your
office to the street, what kind of door was that?
Glass,
wood, solid, could you see through it? Tirado:
No, it was solid. I don't
remember exactly, but perhaps I was
wood. But it was solid. Page
16 16 Silvia
Tirado Interview Page
11. Cornwell:
You don't remember being able to see out on the street? Tirado:
No, no. Cornwell:
Okay. Lopez:
You enter the Consulate right, in here? Tirado:
Uh huh. Lopez:
And your office would be right around here.
Right? Tirado:
My desk was here. Cornwell:
You have drawn a small box now inside the larger half of the
area we originally marked area number one, that's where our
desk was? Tirado:
Yes. Lopez:
From where you sat to the entrance into the office where you
were, where would the entrance into the office be?
Not into
the whole consulate, but just into your office? Tirado:
It was open. Lopez.
Okay, it was open. Tirado:
You would enter here. Here
was the stairs for the second
floor, No?--and here I think there were chairs, or something
like that. For the people who
were waiting. And the desk was
here. Lopez:
Okay. Where would the
entrance to your office be? Tirado:
Here, or here. Lopez:
Just to your office, not to the Consul's office.
Page
17 17 Silvia
Tirado Interview Page
12.
It would be at the same entrance? Tirado:
Yes. Lopez:
And from where you sat, you couldn't see outside at all? Tirado:
No. Lopez:
You couldn't see any area in the yard?
There was no glass. Tirado:
No. I can remember glass, a
window, yeah. I can remember
windows here, and perhaps here, but I don't remember. Cornwell:
Okay. There may have been
windows for you to see out in the
street? Tirado:
Yeah, but I couldn't see outside because perhaps they were
very high. Cornwell:
While Mr. Lopez was asking you questions, he drew a diagonal
line across your office space. Does
that represent anything?
That line should not have been drawn, is that correct? Tirado:
yeah. (Laughs.) Cornwell:
Now, did you know a Teresa Proenza? Was
she employed at the
Consulate or the Embassy. Tirado:
The Embassy. She was the
Cultural Attache. Cornwell:
She would have worked in the area marked number four?
Is that
correct? Tirado:
Well, yes. But this was, this
construction was uh,
afterwards. This was the
Embassy and the Consulate and
building was under construction,
Page
18 18 Silvia
Tirado Interview Page
13.
constructed. A building. Cornwell:
Constructed? Tirado:
Later. It was the old
building. Cornwell:
Did she work there during the same period of time you did? Tirado:
Yes. Cornwell:
At the period where did she work? What
area? Tirado:
Here. Cornwell:
That's the area we marked number three on the diagram.
Did
you know a Louisa Calderon? Tirado:
Louisa? Yes, she was in the
commercial... Cornwell:
And where would that be on the diagram?
In the area we marked
number two? Tirado:
I think her office was exactly above mine.
She was a
secretary. And I think it was
above. Cornwell:
Either above the area we marked one, or the area marked two,
but on the second level. Tirado:
Yes. Cornwell:
Do you know the names of any other employees who worked there
at the time? Tirado:
No, I don't remember. Cornwell.
The man named
Mirabal, he was to replace Eusebio Azcue, is
that correct? Tirado:
Yes. Page
19 19 Silvia
Tirado Interview Page
14. Cornwell:
And do you recall aproximately when he arrived in
and began to learn the job so he could take it over from
Eusebio Azcue? Tirado:
I didn't understand, what did you say please? Cornwell:
Do you remember approximately when he arrived?
And began to
learn the work from Azcue. Tirado:
No, some weeks earlier, I don't remember. cornwell:
Would it be accurate to state that your best memory as you
told us when we spoke to you informally before we turned the
tape recorders on, that he was already there when you met the
man you later identified as Oswald? Tirado:
Yes. Cornwell:
Now. Tirado:
But he wasn't there when I started working at the Embassy, at
the Consulate. Cornwell:
Okay. So he much have arrived
in late summer or perhaps
September, or something like that. Tirado:
Yes. Cornwell:
Now, were there telephones in the office? Tirado:
Here. Cornwell:
You had one at your desk? Tirado:
this is the desk and here was a little table.
I think it was the telephone. Here
was the Page
20 20 Silvia
Tirado Interview Page
15.
safe box. And here was the
Archivo. Lopez:
Archives. Cornwell:
So you've drawn two smaller boxes next to your desk.
One of
them was like a filing cabinet, or for storage of records? Tirado:
Yes. This one.
The Files. Cornwell:
And the other one was a table. Tirado:
No, here was the safe box. Cornwell:
Oh, a safe. I see, a safe.
And there was a phone at the
desk? Tirado:
Yes. Cornwell:
And did Azcue also have a telephone? Tirado:
Yes, it was the same but with an extension. Cornwell:
Extension. Tirado:
Here was the door. Cornwell:
All right. 1963, where were
you living? Did you have more
than one residence? Tirado:
Yes. Constituyentes 143. Cornwell:
And during what part of 1963 was that? Tirado:
When I moved there?
Before i started working, at the embassy.
But just a few
weeks... Cornwell:
So sometime in the summer of 1963. Did
you have Page
21 21 Silvia
Tirado Interview Page
16.
a telephone at your home? Tirado:
Not at the moment that Oswald came. Because
we had just
moved. I think we moved in
July because we were separated in
July, also, July '68 and it is when the contract finished.
So
perhaps... Cornwell:
I see. Your rent contract ran
out in July of '68? Tirado:
Yes. Cornwell:
About the same time that you and Horatio were divorced? Tirado:
Yes. Cornwell:
Did you, you say that because of your move, it took some time
to get a telephone in your home? Tirado:
Yes. cornwell:
And do you remember approximately when it was that you finally
got that in? Tirado:
At the assassination we had, a, let me see, we didn't have
telephone--days later. Cornwell:
It was sometime after the assassination that you first got a
telephone in this residence. Tirado:
Yes. Cornwell:
And do you by any chance recall the telephone number at the
Consulate? Tirado:
Oh, so many times I write it down. Perhaps
it was 11-28-45,
perhaps? Page
22 22 Silvia
Tirado Interview Page
17. Cornwell:
Could it have been 11-28-47? Tirado:
Perhaps. Cornwell:
When were you first advised that we wanted to speak to you? Tirado:
Last week. Cornwell:
And since that time, of course, last Wednesday, I believe it
was, we spoke to you informatlly, and told you basically what
we were interested in. And
learned most of what you could
remember about the events we were interested in.
Correct? Tirado:
Yes. Cornwell:
Apart from that, have you had any other oportunities to read
anything, or speak to anyone, in order to refresh your memory
about the events? Tirado:
Yes. In October of '76 some
journalist from the
Post came to interview me. Cornwell:
We are familiar with the story that appeared in the
Post at approximately that time. Apart
from that have you for
instance read the Tirado:
Yes. Cornwell:
When did you last have an occasion to read that? Tirado:
Oh, when Horacio told me you were coming, I was writing, and I
try to remember exactly and I'm starting saying that again,
the nightmare came, and so on Page
23 23 Silvia
Tirado Interview Page
18.
and so on, and I wanted to check the dates. Cornwell:
So, last week sometime, you had a chance to read it over
again? Tirado:
No, not everything just the one little thing. Cornwell:
Just the part that dealt with
and that sort of thing. Correct? Tirado:
Yes. Cornwell:
Let me ask you, when you read that, was there any part of it
that seemed to you to be inaccurate? Tirado:
Inaccurate? Cornwell:
Not correct. Tirado:
Not correct? Yes, but with
the warren Commission, I get angry
when I start reading it because they make some afirmacionnes
(ph). Lopez:
Allegations or conclusions. tirado:
Yes. I don't like it.
So I tried to erase it. Cornwell:
Okay. What specifically about
the report was it that makes
you angry? Tirado:
That I was a--let me see how to say it--, I don't remember
exactly, but uh, I did more to Oswald when he was here than
was my job, that it was extra. Cornwell:
You mean part of the report that suggests that you went
beyond your duties at that Consulate, that you exceeded your
authority, and you thought that you did not do so.
Is that
correct? Page
24 24 Silvia
Tirado Interview Page
19. Tirado:
Correct. Cornwell:
Is there anything else about the
resume of the facts that you felt was inaccurate, that made
you mad? Tirado:
I cannot answer that because I only read at that time two
pages. I didn't read the
whole thing. Cornwell:
Okay. In addition to looking
at that in order to refresh you
memory, have you had a chance to speak to any one else? Tirado:
No, it was just for checking my writing. Cornwell:
What writing was that? Tirado:
Well, I was trying to remember everything that happened in the
interrogatory. It was not
hard, I mean, what I felt, but uh,
what the police had done to me, so it was my but I'm writing,
I'm writing an autobiographia how do you say that, and this is
a chapter. Cornwell:
I see. Tirado:
(Laughs.) Cornwell:
Directing your attention than to approximately late September
of 1963, as we learned from you the other day, a man came to
the Consulate, a man who you later associated with pictures in
the newspaper and a name in the newspaper of the alleged
assassin of the President. Is
that correct? Page
25 25 Silvia
Tirado Interview Page
20 Tirado:
Yes. Cornwell:
Do you remember how many times he came to the Consulate? Tirado:
Three times. Cornwell:
Do you remember the date or dates upon which those three
visits occurred? Tirado:
No, I saw the application. You
showed me the other day, and
in the
remember, of course, until I read it. Cornwell:
All right. Do you have a
recollection whether it was all on
one day or on separate days. Tirado:
The same day. Cornwell:
On the very first visit, would you describe to us what the man
said and did, and what you said in response? tirado:
Yes, he, well, he enter and he ask me if I speak english and I
say yes, and then he start asking me about requirements to go
to Cornwell:
What did you explain? Tirado:
Well, that he needed to, he said that a transit visa so that
he needs a visa to the country that he was going, from, if it
was a Socialist country, the visa was given, as soon Page
26 26 Silvia
Tirado Interview Page
21.
as he gets the other visa, and uh... Cornwell:
When he first asked about the requirements for a visa, did he
tell you that his objective was to go to
country? Tirado:
To the Cornwell:
Did you ever suggest to him that there was any alternative
means to acquire a visa other than the in-transit visa
requirement which you just described? Tirado:
I don't remember, I mean I hardly remember.
But what used to
say is if you want to go to
friends in
responsibility, if you get the visa.
That was one way, no?
And the other way was in-transit. Cornwell:
Okay. If I understand then,
you don't have a distinct
recollection about exactly what you said to Oswald, but you
asumed it was what you said to everyone who came in, which was
that you explained both processes, that they either must have
friends in
they got a visa from another country. Tirado:
No, if only they asked me. Because
they usually go there and
say, "I want to go to
transit, then I explain Page
27 27 Silvia
Tirado Interview Page
22. Cornwell:
Okay, then. Let me see if I
can rephrase it and get what's in
your mind as best we can. Is
it your best recollection that
you did explain both alternatives to Oswald? Tirado:
I don't remember exactly, because I think he immediately says
that he wants to go to
Cornwell:
Okay. So then your best
recollection that you may have only
explained the in-transit visa process.
Is that correct? Tirado:
Yes. Cornell:
But, I gather from the way you have answered the question,
there is still the possibility that you also discussed with
him going to
that second one. Is that
accurate? Tirado:
Yes. Cornwell:
Now, after this first basic explanation, what if anything did
he say or do? Tirado:
Well, I don't remember exactly. He
show all the paper that he
had, when he gave me the application when he came back,... Cornwell:
Okay. Wait a minute.
Just the first visit. Is
there anything
else about the first visit? Or, Page
28 28 Silvia
Tirado Interview Page
23.
did he leave at that time and if he left, why did he leave? Tirado:
To have photographs of himself. Cornwell:
Okay. So your memory is that
on the first occasion you also
explained to him that he needed photographs and he left
shortly thereafter to obtain them. Tirado:
Yes, and perhaps, but I'm not very sure, that, uh, he said
that he was a friend of the Cuban Revolution, and when he
showed me all the scrap paper that he has. Cornwell:
All right. You don't remember
if that was on the first or the
second occasion. Correct? Tirado:
Yeah, I don't remember. Cornwell:
Nevertheless, he did leave to go get photographs, and he did
return? Tirado:
Yes. Cornwell:
Did he return with the photographs? Tirado:
With four photographs. Cornwell:
Four of them. tirado:
Yeah. Cornwell:
Were they all the same? To
the best of your memory, was he
wearing the same kind of clothes that he was wearing that day
in the photographs? Tirado:
Yes. Page
29 29 Silvia
Tirado Interview Page
24. Cornwell:
So, from all the circumstances, did it appear to your that he
just went somewhere locally and had the pictures made? Tirado:
Yeah. I think that I already
explained (to) him where he
could take the photographs. Cornwell:
You told him some locations in town where ge could go?
Were
there some right in the neighborhood of the Consulate there? Tirado:
That I don't remember. Cornwell:
All right. But at any rate
you knew of some place at the
time, mentioned one or two places to him? Tirado:
Yes. Cornwell:
Correct?... Did you look at the photos when he brought them
back, careful about to be sure that it was the same man who
was standing in front of you? Tirado:
Yes. Cornwell:
And what did you do at that time? Tirado:
I filled out application. Cornwell:
You personally typed it, and did you type it in duplicate or
triplicate or just one copy? Tirado:
Duplicate. Cornwell:
And was the second copy a carbon? Page
30 30 Silvia
Tirado Interview Page
23. Tirado:
Carbon? Cornwell:
Did you have it twice or did you type one and make two copies? Tirado:
Only one. Cornwell:
And made two? Tirado:
Yes. Cornwell:
And what did you do with the photographs? Tirado:
Stapled them. Cornwell:
Stapled them? Tirado:
Yes. Cornwell:
On top of the application. Tirado:
Yes. Cornwell:
The application has a place on it for a date, is that correct? Tirado:
Yes. Cornwell:
Did you type in the date that was in fact that day? Tirado:
Yes. Cornwell:
Let's just talk hypothetically for a moment.
Is there any
chance that he was at the Consulate on more than one day? Tirado:
No. I read yesterday, an
article in the Reader's digest, and
they say he was at the Consulate on three occasions.
He was
in Friday, Saturday, and Monday...That's not true, that's
false. Page
31 31 Silvia's
Tirado Interview Page
26. Cornwell:
All right. Let's try a
different hypothetical. If the one
in
the Reader's Digest is definitely wrong, is it possible that
he first came on like a Thursday, and then came back on a
Friday? Tirado:
No, because I am positively sure about it.
That he came in
the same day. Cornwell:
Let me ask you then something about just the procedures or the
Consulate at the time. Would
it have been consistent with
your normal procedures for you to have typed the application
on his first visit, even though he didn't have a photograph to
put on it? Tirado:
No. Cornwell:
In other words, before you started the process of typing it,
you were sure you had everything you needed to make it
complete. Tirado:
Yes. Cornwell:
Did he tel you where he was staying at the time? Tirado:
No. Cornwell:
Did you recall any problem with him not knowing any address,
where he was staying in Tirado:
No, because he say that he has no time to wait, he was in a
hotel and uh, I didn't ask the
address, in
because I mean didn't care. Cornwell:
You didn't have a need to know that? Page
32 32 Silvia
Tirado Interview Page
27. Tirado:
No. Cornwell:
Do you recall any problem coming up where he needed to know
it? For any other reason? Tirado:
Me to know his address? Cornwell:
No, for him to know. Did he
have any problem, did he have any
need to know it himself? Do
you remember anything along those
lines? Tirado:
No. Cornwell:
Going back to the second visit, is it your memory that you
typed the application in duplicate, you stapled the pictures at
the top of each copy, if that correct? Tirado:
Yes. Cornwell:
Then what did you do with the application? Tirado:
Well, I used to put it in a file, and uh, I used to keep one
copy, another to send, the original, we used to send to
And I think I have another file. Cornwell:
Was he required to sign the application? Tirado:
He sighned it, yes. Cornwell:
Did he sign one or both of them? Tirado:
I think both, it has to be. Cornwell:
Was there any requirement in the Consulate that he do it in
any particular person's presence? Anyone
have to watch him
while he signed it? Tirado:
I don't know, I mean I just don't remember. Page
32 33 Silvia
Tirado Interview Page
23. Cornwell:
As a hypothetical, did Azcue have to watch people sign the
applications? Tirado:
No. He was in his office. Cornwell:
So you could handle that all by yourself. Tirado:
yes. Cornwell:
Did he sign it in your presence? Tirado:
Yes. Cornwell:
Did anything else occur on the second visit, any other
conversation, or any other event? Tirado:
No, but I told you, it's uh, he said that he was a friend of
the Cuban Revolution. He show
me letters to the Communist
Party, the American Communist Party, his labor card, and uh,
he's working in
on his application, his licence number... Cornwell:
Marriage license? Tirado:
(Spoke in spanish.) Se dice
serup los recortes Cornwell:
Okay, we had to pause for a second to turn the periodico tapes
over. As I recall, you were
explaining the kinds of things he
brought with him. Tirado:
Yes, it was his labor card, form
pact, yes, that he was married with a Russian, and uh, a
clipping that he was with two policemen taking him by his
arms, that he was in a meeting to support
saying that he was a member of the Fair Play for Page
34 34 Silvia
Tirado Interview Page
29.
Cornwell:
Do you recall what was said or what occurred that caused him
to produce all of these documents about his having a Russian
wife and his Fair Play For Tirado:
Just a minute. (Spanish--what
means recall?) Lopez:
Recordar.
He showed me all of these papers to demonstrate that he was a
friend of the revolution. Cornwell:
But did you say anything to him or did anyone else say
anything to him that made him feel he needed to produce this
kind of documentation. Tirado:
No, I don't think so. What I
said is that when he said he was
a member of the Party, of the Communist Party, the American, I
said why don't they arrange, the Party, your Party with the
Cuban Party, and he said that he didn't have time to do it. Cornwell:
Did you ask him why hw didn't just have the Communist Party
arrange his trip to Tirado:
Yes. Cornwell:
The Cuban Communist Party? He
just said he didn't have time? Tirado:
Yes. Because there was a
manner to do it. I mean, we get,
for instance, the visa directly Page
35 35 Silvia
Tirado Interview Page
30.
from
coming and somebody say oh, yes, you have
you visa here. Cornwell:
Do you recall anything else happening on the second occasion?
Or have you related all that's in your mind on that? Tirado:
No. It was strange.
I mean because I you are a Communist and
you're coming from a country where the Communist Party is not
very well seen, and in
was not legal at that moment -- crossing the border with all
of his paper, it was not logical. I
mean if you're really
communist, you go with anything, I mean just nothing, just
your passport, that's all. And
that was something that I
didn't like it but... Cornwell:
So, you were a little suspicious of the amount of
documentation he brought? Tirado:
Yeah. Cornwell:
Did you say anything to him about that? tirado:
Perhaps I told him, what are you doing with all of this?
And
he said to prove I'm a friend of yours. Cornwell:
Did you discuss your suspicions with anyone else? Tirado:
With the consul. Cornwell:
With Azcue? Page
36 36 Silvia
Tirado Interview Page
31. Tirado:
Yes. Cornwell:
Do you remember when that discussion occurred? Tirado:
It was afterwards. Cornwell:
Was that after his second visit as you recall? Tirado:
It was during his third visit. Cornwell:
During his third visit. All
right. Let's back up again for
just a moment. what time of
day as best as you recall did he
come to the Consulate the first time? Tirado:
Perhaps it was eleven o'clock or something like that, ten
thirty. Cornwell:
And the second time? Tirado:
About twelve, or eleven, no, about one o'clock. Cornwell:
Okay. The first one was
roughly late morning, and the second
one was early afternoon. Tirado:
Yes. Cornwell:
And then, when did he leave the second time? Tirado:
To get his Russian visa. Cornwell:
Would it have been the standard procedure in the Cuban
Consulate, to take the application, have him sign it, and have
it ready to go in the file if the request was in-transit, for
an in-transit visa, even though he did not have the visa from
the third country. Or from
another country? Tirado:
Uh, huh. Page
37 37 Silvia
Tirado Interview Page
32. Cornwell:
All right. Tirado:
Yes, I did send it to Cornwell:
All right. Okay.
So, then you sent him in effect, to the
Russian Embassy. And it was
at that point after he left that
you spoke to... Tirado:
No. Cornwell:
No, you didn't speak to the Consulate at all yet. Tirado:
No. Cornwell:
Had there been any problem at all yet? Tirado:
No. Cornwell:
So far, it's like any normal visa appplication. Tirado:
Yes. Cornwell:
Would it have been consistent with the procedures in the
consulate or you to have allowed him to take one or both of
the applications typed up outside the Consulate? Tirado:
I don't remember very well if uh, there were only two copies.
I mean, one original and one copy, but uh, it could have
happened, but I don't remember. Cornwell:
Okay. To the best of your
memory then, the person who made
the application was not permitted to have a copy. Tirado:
I don't know. I don't
remember. Cornwell:
Okay. You're not sure.
But your tentative memory is that
would not have occurred. Page
38 38 Silvia
Tirado Interview Page
33. Tirado:
No. Cornwell:
Is that correct? Tirado:
Yes. Cornwell:
Would you have ever allowed a person to take all of the
applications outside and attach the photos or sign them
themselves? Tirado:
Yes, because you may come, ask for the application and you may
keep it. Cornwell:
You, on occasion, would allow someone just to have a blank
copy. Is that correct? Tirado:
Yes. But he was different
because he did not speak in Spanish
so I have to fill it. Cornwell:
I see. If he would have
spoken Spanish or professed to having
someone with him who did speak Spanish, you might have allowed
him to take the applications and fill them out. Tirado:
Perhaps. Cornwell:
At least on other occasions you have done that, with other
people. Tirado:
That's something that I really don't remember. Cornwell:
There at least, there was no requirement that you type it
there in the office, as long as it got filled out. Tirado:
I think I have to type it. I
have to type it because I have
to make some observations, always. Cornwell:
Down at the botton? Tirado:
Yes. Page
39 39 Silvia
Tirado Interview Page
34.
And I think that if you fill it in handwriting, I have to type
it, for, to send it to Cornwell:
So, at most, you would allow someone to fill it out and bring
it in so you could type it? Tirado:
Yes. Cornwell:
If that procedure was employed, allowing someone else ot fill
it out, would you still be required ot check the photograph to
be sure it was accurate? Tirado:
Yes. Cornwell:
Would you still require the person to sign it in your
presence? Tirado:
Yes. Cornwell:
Just so we can keep out documents straight, let's just mark
now on the back a photograph and we'll ask you some questions
about it. We'll mark it as
Exhibit Number 2. This is a
photograph of what would appear to be a visa application.
Does it appear to be basically the type of visa application
that we have been speaking about? Tirado:
Yes. The numbers, I think
they're mine. Cornwell:
The numbers in the upper right-hand corner which are
hand-written? Tirado:
I think so. Page
40 40 Silvia
Tirado Interview Page
35. Cornwell:
Those appear to you to be in your handwriting. Tirado:
Yeah, because when I file I write in the number, the following
number? Cornwell:
Okay. And on the very bottom
of the application, where it
says "para uso de la mision" that means it's filled in by
someone associated with the Cuban Government.
Is that
correct. Or the Consulate? Tirado:
Yes. Cornwell:
Who, according to the usual procedure, filled out that
portion. Tirado:
Me. Cornwell:
The other day when we talked to you informally, you read
through the words in that section. Is
that correct? Tirado:
Yes. I remember. Cornwell:
And your memory is that you in fact typed that section on this
application. Tirado:
Yes. I used to do this with
all the applications. Cornwell:
And under that, there is a signature. Tirado:
Yes. Cornwell:
Are you able to tell whose signature that is? Tirado:
No, I was thinking it was Mirabal, but no--I couldn't sign any
papers. Cornwell:
Okay. So it was definitely
not your signature? Tirado:
No. Cornwell:
Do you know whether, according to normal procedure, Page
41 41 Silvia
Tirado Interview Page
36.
any particular person routinely placed his name at that
location? Tirado:
No, only the Consulate. People
in the Consulate. Cornwell:
What would be the purpose of a signature in the lower
right-hand corner? Tirado:
I don't know, perhaps to check that it was right as it was
written. Cornwell:
Did you ever see the Consulate or any other employee
routinely sign the applications at the location? Tirado:
I don't remember, but what I used to do was put the originals
in one packet and that was with a letter to the Minister, de
Relaciones exterister (spanish). How
do you say that? (Lopez
- Minister of Foreign Relations), and I used to give to the
Consul so he sign the papers and send it to Cornwell:
Okay. One copy stayed
in the Consulate and one was mailed to
Tirado:
Yes. Cornwell:
Is it possible then that the signature in the lower right-hand
corner is someone in Tirado:
Perhaps that one that get it. Cornwell:
That receives it in Page
42 42 Silvia
Tirado Interview Page
37.
which appears slightly over the name, the handwritten name,
Lee H. Oswald, when did that get laced on the application if
you know? Tirado:
Perhaps in the moment that he sign? Cornwell:
Was that part of the normal procedure?
Did you have a stamp
as you recall to do that? Tirado:
Yes. Cornwell:
And was that a means of authenticating the signature, that you
would stamp on top of it like that? Tirado:
I think so. Because let me
see.
This was signed by
This was the answer, perhaps. Cornwell:
So there's a date you just pointed to, around the middle of
the application reading 10-Oct. 1963 and you are assuming, I
take it, that that was the date placed on the document in
Tirado:
Perhaps but I don't know.
I don't know the date of when we send the application. Cornwell:
Or it was placed on there when you mailed it? Tirado:
Yes. Cornwell:
Do you know which? Tirado:
I don't know. Cornwell:
You don't remember which? Could
it have been the date upon
which the application was received Page
43 43 Silvia
Tirado Interview Page
38.
in the Consulate here in Tirado:
In return. cornwell:
In return? Back from
Is that what you mean? Tirado:
Perhaps. I don't know that. Cornwell:
Could it have been the date you received it from Oswald? Tirado:
No, because it was the same date. Cornwell:
Okay. The only date on here
of receipt from Oswald was the
one near the top, the second line, which reads:
27 Sep. 1963. Tirado:
Yes. Cornwell:
So I guess the best we can do is say that you don't have a
distinct recollection of how the 10th of October date would
have gotten placed on here. Correct? Tirado:
Yeah. Cornwell:
How long normally would it have taken between the receipt of
an application and the date that it would have been mailed to
Tirado:
Well, it depends on the flight. We
had, I don't remember in
that time, if we were three flights from
from
do, if we have a lot of work we wouldn't have sent it
immediately or,--valise diplomatica, How do you say it? Cornwell:
Diplomatic pouch. Page
44 44 Silvia
Tirado Interview Page
39. Cornwell:
Would there have been some usual amount of time?
How much could it vary? Tirado:
The flights were Monday, Wednesday and Friday, I think.
And
uh, well, we send a bunch if, I think, I don't know, when what
day in the week was the 27th? Perhaps
if it was Wednesday, we
would send next Friday, or next Monday.
Or... Cornwell:
I have another photograph of just the upper left-hand corner
of the same document, which we'll mark as Exhibit 3 on the
back, and ask you if, to the best of your recollection, that
is a photograph of the man whom you saw on or about the 27th
of September? Tirado:
Yes. Cornwell:
I don't understand. A moment
ago, did you say that there was
a normal time of the week that mailings to Tirado:
Would you please repeat the question? Cornwell:
Was there a usual day, did the mailings to
on one given day of the week? Tirado:
Yes, I don't remember exactly, but I think it was on Friday,
perhaps, that we make, we send applications.
Yeah, it was one
day to send all the applications. Cornwell:
All right. So, if we were to
tel you the 27th of Page
45 45 Silvia
Tirado Interview Page
41. Cornwell:
What happened? Tirado:
Somebody took them to the Consulate. cornwell:
Okay. you said the main gate.
Was that the area that, on
Exhibit one, you marked as beign the door to your office, or
some other area? Tirado:
He was closed. In the
afternoon he was closed. But perhaps
he came... Cornwell:
The door on Area One was locked up. Okay? Tirado:
Yes. And then he was open. Cornwell:
Over near Number Seven, is that correct?
Where they let the cars in? Tirado:
Yes. Cornwell:
There was a door there too? Tirado:
Yes. It was the garage and
another door. Cornwell:
And the doorman from that area brought him to your office? Tirado:
Yes. Cornwell:
What occurred on that occasion? Tirado:
What? Cornwell:
What happened on that occasion. Tirado:
Well, he came in and he said that he already have his Russian
Visa and uh, he want to get his Cuban visa.
And I said that
that was not possible because he has to be first sent to
and then Page
46 46 Sylvia
Tirado Interview Page
41. Cornwell:
What happened? Tirado:
Somebody took them to the Consulate. Cornwell:
Okay. You said the main gate.
Was that the area
that, on Exhibit one, you marked as being the
door to your office, or some other area? Tirado:
He was closed. In the
afternoon he was closed. But perhaps
he came... Cornwell:
The door on Area One was locked up. Okay? Tirado:
Yes. And then he was open. Cornwell:
Over near Number Seven, is that correct?
Where they let the cars in? Tirado:
Yes. Cornwell:
There was a door there too? Tirado:
Yes. It was the garage and
another door. Cornwell:
And the doorman from that area brought him ot your office? Tirado:
Yes. Cornwell:
What occurred on that occasion? Tirado:
What? Cornwell:
What happened on that occasion? Tirado:
Well, he came in and he said that he already have his Russian
visa and uh, he want to get his Cuban visa. And I said that
that was not possible because he has to be first sent to
and then Page
47 47 Silvia
Tirado Interview Page
42.
wait for the answer, no, it was necessary that he has to have
first a Socialist visa, the Russian visa.
And, uh,... Cornwell:
Did he show you his passport with a visa in it?
From the
Russian Embassy. Tirado:
No, No. I don't remember
exactly but what I remember is he
says that he already has his Russian visa and I said I don't
see it and well, I don't remember exactly what we discussed in
that moment. But, he was very
stubborn. So, I say, well, I'm
going to call to the Russian Consul, so I called the russian
Consul and I said hey, listen, here's a man that, he say that
he already got his Russian visa. And
he said, yes, I remember
it. He came to us for visa
but uh, the answer will be in
three or four months, that
was the usual time. Cornwell:
So as you recall, then, the person t the Russian Embassy said
in effect, no, he doesn't have it yet, he's only applied
for it. Is that right? Tirado:
Yes. Cornwell:
Okay. Go ahead. Tirado:
And uh, and I told him what the Russian Consulate says and
then, he was angry. He age
angry. And he insisted that he
was a friend of the Cuban Page
48 48 Silvia
Tirado Interview Page
43.
Revolution, that he has already been in jail for
the Cuban Revolution, that uh, oh, that he
wanted that visa and that he couldn't wait for
so long time because uh, his Mexican visa was
finished in three days. So he
was insistent and uh,
I didn't have time and well, I couldn't make him
understand that. So, I went
to the Consul's
office and I explained to him, and would you please
come and talk with him? Axcue
came, Misrabel I
think he didn't speak English, so Azcue came and
told him those things, all the requirements that he
needs to fly to
was red and he was almost crying and uh, he was
insisting and insisting so Azcue told him to go away
because if he didn't go away at that moment he was
going to kick him, or something like that.
So,
Azcue went to the door, he opened the door and
told Oswald to go away. Cornwell:
Okay.
So he went to the door which was in the
area we marked 'one,' which was at the Consulate
Office? Tirado:
Yes...Remember, I was feeling pity for him
because he looked desperate. Cornwell:
He looked
desperate? Tirado:
Yes. Page
49 49 Silvia
Tirado Interview page
44. Cornwell:
So, you felt kind of sorry for him? Tirado:
Yes. Cornwell:
At any time during these three contacts, did he
indicate to you that he could speak or understand
Spanish? Tirado:
No. Cornwell:
During this period was your normal work week, did
it include Saturdays? Tirado
Yes. Cornwell
Is it possible that, in addition to his visits on
Friday, he also came back the following day on
Saturday mourning? Tirado:
No. Cornwell:
How can you be sure of that? Tirado:
Because, uh, I told you before, that it was easy
to remember, because not all the Americans that
came there were married with a Russian woman, they
have live(d) in Russian and uh, we didn't used to
fight with those people because if you, they came
for going to
no? So we were nice to them
with this man we fight,
I mean we had a hard discussion so we didn't want
to have anything to do with him. Cornwell:
Okay. I understand that but I
don't understand
how that really answers the question.
In other Page
50 50 Silvia
Tirado Interview Page
45.
words, the question is, what is it about the
events that makes you sure that he did not come
back on Saturday, and have another conversation
with you? Tirado:
Because I remember the fight. So
if he (come)
back, I would have remembered. Cornwell:
Did Azcue work on Saturdays? Tirado:
Yes, we used to work in the office but not for
the public. Cornwell:
Was there a guard, was there a guard out here at
the corner near number seven on your diagram on
Saturdays? Tirado:
Excuse me? Cornwell:
Was there a doorman out near the area that you
marked as number seven, on the diagram? Tirado:
Yes, but on Saturday he never let people ... Cornwell:
Never let people in. Tirado:
No. Cornwell:
Not even if they came up to the doorman and didn't
speak Spanish? And were very
insistent? Tirado:
No,
because they could answer or something. They
could ask me for instance, no ? by the inter-phone. Cornwell:
They could do that on a Friday, though. Page
51 51 Silvia
Tirado Interview Page
46 Tirado:
But what I remember is that Oswald has my tele-
phone number and my name and perhaps he show to
the doorman (Spanish). Cornwell:
When did you give him the telephone number and
name? Tirado:
In the second visit, perhaps. Cornwell:
Okay. Tirado:
I used to do that to all the people,
so they don't
have to come and to bother me. So
I used to give
the telephone number and my name and say "give me
a call next week to see if your visa arrived." Cornwell:
Well. Are you saying that
based on your memory
the guard was allowed to bring people in during the
five till eight o'clock at night uh, sessions
during the week but not on Saturdays? Tirado:
No. Cornwell:
Is that correct? Tirado:
Yes. Cornwell:
Do you have a distinct recollection with respect
to telephone calls to the Russian Consulate, was
it just one call or was it more than one call? Tirado:
Only one. Cornwell:
Just one.
The ... I believe I asked you this, but just to
be sure, although the application was typed with Page
52 52 Silvia
Tirado Interview Page
47.
a carbon to make two copies with one typing,
did he have to sign both independently?
Or did
you allow them to use a carbon to sign the paper? Tirado:
No, no. It was the original. Cornwell:
Two original signatures. All
right. Tirado:
Yes. Cornwell:
Was anything said that you
recall at this time
which looking back on it indicated the possibility,
even on that date, Oswald had on his mind some
intension of killing the President of the United
States? Tirado:
No, I don't think so. Cornwell:
Let me read something to you, and ask you if it at
all refreshes your memory or if hour have a memory
of a conversation similar to this?
I don't believe I read this to you before, when
we talked the other day, or did I? Did
I rea
and excerpt from Daniel Schorr's book to you? Tirado:
No, you told me. Cornwell:
Okay. I'll read it to you
then at this time.
It's an excerpt from a book called Clearing the
Air, written by Daniel Schorr, published in the
follows:
"In and interview in July 1967 with a
British journalist, Comer Clark, Castro Page
53 53 Silvia
Tirado Interview Page
48
(meaning Fidel Castro) said that Oswald
had come to the Cuban Consulate twice,
each time for about fifteen minutes.
The
first time, I was told, he wanted to work
for us. He was asked to
explain but he
wouldn't, he wouldn't go into details.
The
second time he said he wanted to free
from American imperialism. Then
he said
something like 'Someone ought to shoot
that President Kennedy.' Then
Oswald said,
and this is exactly how is was reported to
me, maybe I'll try to do it."
Do you recall any conversation like that in
either what was said to you by Oswald or that
was said by Oswald to Azcue or anyone else that
you might have overheard? Tirado:
No, I don't remember. Cornwell:
Did any part of that conversation occur? Tirado:
No, because I don't remember that he says he was
to go to work in
wanted to go in-transit. That's
what I remember. Cornwell:
What do you
think, well, first let me ask you,
do you think that conversation could have occurred
and you just forgot it? In
other words, is that
the kind of conversation which, if it occurred,
you would definitely remember it? Tirado:
Yes. Because in the fight
with Azcue there was
shouting and crying and things like that.
I could
miss something, but not, because even if would
say so, I mean, I could have heard, no, I mean Page
54 54 Silvia
Tirado Interview Page
49
if you kill President you're not going to
change the whole system.
You see, that's why I give you answer,
even Azcue. I mean that's no
the, I don't think
so, that he had that conversation with anyone.
He was arguing. . . Cornwell:
Do you remember any part of the conversation
indicating that Oswald blaming the
or President Kennedy for his inability to get
to Tirado:
I don't remember but that could be possible. Cornwell:
In other words, if he's frustrated and he comes
to the Cuban Consulate, he might feel animosity
or anger towards various people. He
might be
angry at you, or Azcue, or at the Cuban Govern-
ment or at the Russian Government or perhaps the
United States Government, depending on how the
conversation went. What do
you recall about that?
Who was he angry at when told
he couldn't go to
Tirado:
He was angry at us. That's
why I called Azcue
Because he was not a strong man but anyway, I
didn't like to fight with him. He
was very angry
and he was blaming me and Azcue because he thought
it was in our hands to give the visa immediately,
and he couldn't understand that the visa has to Page
55 55 Silvia
Tirado Interview Page
50
come from Cornwell:
You mentioned
earlier that you had discussed
with Azcue on this, as I understood this, during
the third visit with Oswald, the suspicion that
you had about the documents. Is
that accurate
or did I misunderstand? Tirado:
No, it was the third time when I told Azcue that
there was a man that bother me, that when I told
him about. this man, I mean because it was normal, I
used to that was my job, to attend people who
come in so I didn't have to bother the Consul
for every man who came, because there was a lot
crazy men from the
to go to Cornwell:
Okay. So, from what I
understand then, when you
went in to Azcue to bother him, since you normally
didn't do that sort of thing, yo gave him a sort
of background resume of your dealings with Oswald.
Is that correct? Tirado:
Yes. Cornwell:
And was it at that point that you told him of your
suspicion about the documents? Tirado:
I
think so. Cornwell:
What was his reaction? Azcue's? Tirado:
He was worrying. When he went
to my office. Page
56 56 Silvia
Tirado Interview Page
51
he was very tranquil, hw was very polite, hw
was explaining things, very polite. And
uh,
he was starting to get angry when he saw that he
was a stubborn man, that he didn't want to under-
stand, and he said uh, I remember now, he said
you're not a friend of the Cuban Revolution, be-
cause if you are a friend, you have to understand
that we have to take care, to be very careful
with the people that are going to
you don't understand this, you are not friend of
the Cuban Revolution. And he
was shouting and,
I don't remember how long was this conversation,
but uh, they got really angry, both. Leap:
May I call you Silvia? Tirado:
Yes. Leap:
At any time during you conversation with the
Consul, did you discuss the possibility that
Oswald was a penetration agent? Intelligence
agent for a foreign power? Did
you discuss that
possibility? Tirado:
No. I don't think so because
we didn't have
time. Because this man was in
my office and
I was in Azcue's office so I couldn't leave him
many times alone. Leap:
Did you ever have conversations with Ascue out-
side of Oswald's presence relative to the issue? Page
57 57 Silvia
Tirado Interview Page
52 Tirado:
Repeat the question please. Lopez:
Did you ever have a conversation with Azcue when Oswald was
not in the office about the possibility that he was an
intelligence agent for some country? Tirado:
No, no. I don't think so.
We only thought that he was a
crazy man, an adventurer, or something like that. Leap:
Did it ever enter your mind that that he was a penetration
agent? Tirado:
Perhaps. Perhaps, because it
happened, it happened sometimes
that somebody came and say this is a policeman or something
like that. Leap:
That's all the questions that I have. Tirado:
The only thing that I can say, it was that it was strange,
traveling with all of his documents just to prove one thing. Lopez:
Do you think now, looking back on what happened then, that he
may have been an intellegence agent? Tirado:
Perhaps. Cornwell:
Did anything else ever come to your attention?
That caused
that suspicion? Other than
just his presentation of the
documentation? Anything else
ever happen? Tirado:
With him? No, no.
The only thing that was strange is that if
you belong to the Communist Party, Page
58 58 Silvia
Tirado Interview Page
53
any party. Your French, but
French could get Cuban visa but
Mexico, for instance, if you're Mexican and you're a member of
the party, of the Communist Party, you don't have to go and
ask for application visa because the party writes to the Cuban
Communist Party, and they
arrange everything. That was the
strange thing. There's no need. At
first, he said that he was
a Communist. That was
strange. Because it would be really
easy for him to get the visa through the Communist Party. Cornwell:
At any point in the conversations that you have told us about,
did Oswald say anything indicating that he really wanted to
stay in Tirado:
No. He just wanted to go and
visit and saw what was the
Revolution. Cornwell:
Okay. That's sort of what I
meant. In other words, he did
indicate that he didn't just want to pass through, that he
wanted to spend some time there. Is
that correct? Tirado:
Yes. Cornwell:
What do you recall about that part of the conversations? Tirado:
I told him that he get to
and there was a plane going to Page
59 59 Silvia
Tirado Interview Page
54.
Russia at five o'clock, he has to stay in the airport, in the
Cuban airport. That he
couldn't go out. Cornwell:
Why didn't you tell him that? Tirado:
Because he was saying that he wanted to go to
and to see what the revolution had made. Cornwell:
Did you ever see him again, after the argument with Azcue? Tirado:
No. Cornwell:
Did you ever talk to him again? Tirado:
No. Cornwell:
Not in person nor by telephone. Tirado:
No, he never call He could
have called when I wasn't there,
but I used to get the message, if somebody answer, I used to
get a message. Cornwell:
Did anyone else overhear any of the conversations you have
described? Other than the one
time in which Azcue was
involved? Tirado:
Yes. Could be that people
from the Commercial Office, could
be Mirabal. Cornwell:
Was there anyone else physically persent in the Consulate's
office during those conversations as you can recall? Page
60 60 Silvia
Tirado Interview Page
55. Tirado:
I can't remember. The only
thing that I remember is that it
was only Mirabal. Cornwell:
And did Mirabal come out in the reception area during the
conversations as you recall? Tirado:
No, I think he stay in his office. Cornwell:
But he could have overheard it at the time. Tirado:
Yes, everybody who was passing through, even in the streets,
they were shouting, really? Cornwell:
Were the windows up as I guess they might have been at that
time of year? Tirado:
(Didn't understand) Cornwell:
The windows would have been up? The
windows to the Consulate
Office would have been open? Tirado:
What? I.. Cornwell:
In other words, you're saying people on the street might have
overheard it? Tirado:
Yes, yes. If you were here
and there was always a police
here, they could have heard the shouting, the crying.
(Lots
of background, unintelligible.) Page
61 61 KENNEDY SELECT
COMMITTEE ON ASSASSINATIONS TAPE
2 Name:
Silvia Tirado (Duran)
Date: June 5, 1978
Time: Address:
Place: Interview: Cornwell:
You told us previously when we discussed informally with you
that you were sympathetic towards the Cuban Revolution during
the early 1960's-- Tirado:
Yes. Cornwell
Did you ever overhear any conversation either in the Consulate
or among any of the people you may have associated with
concerning the possibility of killing the President? Tirado:
No, because I think the people I used to know during that
time, they think like me, and I think the death of a man
doesn't make anything good, I mean, you have to change the
structures, I mean, it's just like a building, to?
The
President is like, I mean, for instance, a roof--not the top,
but if you take the top, the building still stands.
You have
to destroy the whole building, not one man.
If you kill the
man, you make a hero. So, is
no good. Cornwell:
What were your own feelings towards President Kennedy? Interviewer
Signature Typed
Signature Gary Cornwell
Date transcribed 6-26-78
By: br
Form #4A Page
62 62 Silvia
Tirado Interview Page
2. Tirado:
Well, I like him. I mean, he
was very nice, he was very
intelligent. And I think of
the relations with
remember now, they were very good in the commercial area, the
cultural area. He came ot
They loved him. They liked
him very much. Cornwell:
And, what you're saying is, you're describing what you
understood to be the basic reaction of the Mexican people?
Is
that correct? Tirado:
Yes. Cornwell:
Was that feeling the same even among the part of the Mexican
people who were sympathetic towards the Cuban Revolution? Tirado:
Uh, translate, please, Ed. I
want to be sure of the question. Lopez:
Would you repeat the question, please? Cornwell:
Was the feeling that you just described as being that of the
Mexican people? Lopez:
(Translated question.) Tirado:
In general. Cornwell:
The same with respect to that part of the Mexican people like
yourself who were sympathetic to the Cuban Revolution? Lopez:
(Translated.) Tirado:
Well, yes, more or less. because
I mean, if you're uh, how
can I explain this, uh, if you're a President Page
63 63 Silvia
Tirado Interview Page
3.
of a country that is against uh, against
undeveloped countries, you don't love them, of course, but you
may see that is different, that he has been a good President,
that he was, I think he was ingenious with his
Progress, that he tried to have more friends, not like Dulles
who said we don't have friends, we have interests, things like
that. Do you know that
phrase? Cornwell:
One more time. Lopez:
(Speaks to Tirado in Spanish.) Dulles. Tirado:
He said once the
interests. (Speaks in
Spanish.) And Kennedy tried to
destroy
that phrase, saying we want to have friends.
And he was
changing the politics of Cornwell:
So, you're saying that because of President Kennedy's policies
towards
people who were sympathetic to the Cuban Revolution, they also
very much liked President Kennedy? Tirado:
I think so. Now, I'm not
sure, I mean I-- Cornwell:
At least-- Tirado:
Yeah, but you make the difference with one President and
another. Cornwell:
I understood your answer to my question a moment ago but let
me ask it one more time, nevertheless. Page
64 64 Silvia
Tirado Interview Page
4.
I asked you if at any time during the early 1960's you had
overheard any conversations among among people who were in
favor of the Cuban Revolution to the effect that they would
consider killing the President, and you answered with a
statement on the logic of the situation, that you don't change
the system by changing the President.
Nevertheless, let me
ask you again, more pointedly. Did
you, nevertheless, ever
overhear any such conversations? Tirado:
No. Cornwell:
Did you ever overhear them within the Cuban Consulate or
outside it? Tirado:
No. Cornwell:
I'm sorry, go ahead. Tirado:
No, but I'm Mexican ad I was in
and you have to see that uh, even though the Cuban people know
I was a friend, they would not say things like that in front
of me, of course, no? Cornwell:
When the news came over the television and in the newspapers
that President Kennedy had been killed, and then you heard the
name Lee Harvey Oswald, and saw the picture, I guess you
immediately reflected back on your contact, correct? Tirado:
Yes. Cornwell:
At that time, did anything come into your mind
Page
65 65 Silvia
Tirado Interview Page
3.
in connection with those contacts that you could have read as
foreknowledge, in other words, did it totally surprise you
that that was the alleged assassin, or was there anything
about your contact with him which him it understandable? Tirado:
No. No, even now I don't
think that he would have done it. Cornwell:
You still don't think that he killed him? Tirado:
No, because I think that he was a weak man.
I saw that he
could get angry, but uh, for me, he was not a man that could
kill the President, because even when I saw him on television
and he said all the time, "I'm innocent"
and if I kill
someone very important, I would be proud.
I mean, because
even if I'm with police I know that I'm going to be killed or
die or something like that, I'd say, "Yes, I killed the
President" and I don't think so. Cornwell:
So based on all of your contacts with him, you do not think
that he killed the President? Tirado:
I don't think so. Cornwell:
Let me ask you just some miscellaneous questions about the
nature of your contact with him. Was
there ever any
conversations or indications about money problems that he had?
Was that ever the subject Page
66 66 Silvia
Tirado Interview Page
6
of a conversation? Tirado:
No. The thing that I remember
only that he was very in a
hurry because his visa was finished and I think he said, he
mentioned that he only had three days to stay here in
City. Cornwell:
Did he ever indicate that he hoped the Cuban Government would
finance his trip? Tirado:
I don't think so. Cornwell:
Had you ever done that before? Had
the Consulate ever done
that sort of thing? Tirado:
No, no. We used to do that
but they were visitors and we had
instructions from Cornwell:
Only visitors from cuba, is that what you mean? Tirado:
No, no. For instance,
your--the Cuban Revolutionary
Anniversary, they invite people, they do have everything paid. Cornwell:
In other words, it was persons that had been invited to go to
Tirado:
Yes, yes. Cornwell:
Well, even though, then would not have financed this trip, did
he ask for such assistance? Tirado:
At the time that I was working there, it never happens. Cornwell:
Specifically Oswald. Page
67 67 Silvia
Tirado Interview Page
7. Tirado:
No. Cornwell:
Did he ask for monetary assistance? Tirado:
I don't remember. I don't
think so. But I don't remember. Cornwell:
Did he ever say anything or did you ever observe anything to
indicate that he had traveling companions in Tirado:
No, he didn't mention it. Cornwell:
Did he ever say anything or do anything that indicated that he
knew other people in Tirado:
I don't know. I don't
remember. Cornwell:
To the best of your knowledge he knew no one, is that correct? Tirado:
Yes. Cornwell:
Do you know when he left Tirado:
No. Cornwell:
By what form of transportation? Tirado:
No. Cornwell:
Did anyone ever call or come by the Consulate of his behalf? Tirado:
No. Cornwell:
Did they ever deliver anything to the Consulate for him? Tirado:
No. Cornwell:
There have, let me ask you this--Has any allegation ever been
brought to your attention that you met Page
68 68 Silvia
Tirado Interview Page
8.
with Oswald outside of the Consulate? Tirado:
No. Cornwell:
On--let me show you two books, one of which is labeled photo
ident book and has roughly three inch by five inch pictures in
it and the other one which is labeled JFK Document 7549 and
has smaller pictures in it, and I'll turn the recorder off for
a second and give you a few minutes to look through them and
ask us, and I will ask you if you recognize any of the people
in these photos. Recorder
turned off. Cornwell:
Okay. We've turned the tape
recorder back on and you've had
five minutes, maybe ten, I don't know, to look through the two
books. In the first book, you
only picked out photograph-- Tirado:
This looks like Fidel. But no
exactly. Cornwell:
Which one: Number 12? Tirado:
Yeah. Cornwell:
Who does that look like? Tirado:
Fidel but not exactly. Cornwell:
All right. Just a little. Tirado:
Yeah. Page
69 69 Silvia
Tirado Interview Page
9 Cornwell:
Okay. And you also I believe
pointed to number 57 when you
went through the book. Tirado:
Yes. Cornwell:
And who do you think that is? Tirado:
Oswald. cornwell:
Lee Harvey Oswald. Now, many
of the pictures in the book are
not that clear, of course. When
you saw him the first time in
the book, you indicated that that looked like him except that
as you recalled him, he had either blue or green eyes and
blond hair. Correct? Tirado:
Yes. Cornwell:
When you say blond hair, what color is that?
Is it very
light? Tirado:
Light. Cornwell:
Let's see if we can find an example.
Looking in the second
book--that's all you found in the first book, correct? Tirado:
Yes. Cornwell:
All right. Looking in the
second book, uh, take as an
example, Number 266 04 268, would that be basically what you
recall to be the color of his hair, blond? Tirado:
Yes. Here it looks very, very
light, not that light. Cornwell:
Okay. That would be what you
describe as blond but your
memory is that it was close but not quite as Page
70 70
light as that? Tirado:
Yes. Cornwell:
Okay, but the tape recorder was back away from us so just to
make sure we got that answer, you picked out in
the first
book photograph #57. You
stated that it looked like the way
you recalled the man who came ot the Consulate except that he
had blue or green eyes and blond hair. And
then we were
trying to determine what shade you recall the blond hair
being, and I asked you--all these are black and white--if it
would be similar to photos #266 and #268 in the book 7549?
And you said in those pictures that it looks very light and
that it would not have been that light, quite that light to
your memory. Is that right? Tirado:
Yes. (Long
break.) Cornwell:
I don't know how, working with black and white photos, we can
do much better than that? But-- Tirado:
A little lighter than my eyebrows? There's
another photo...In
the second book, number 26 or 27. You
also pointed to those
photos when you went through the book.
Would the color of
that hair approximate the way you remember it? Page
71 71 Silvia
Tirado Interview Page
11. Tirado:
No, because he had very light, almost white... Cornwell:
Okay, again, it would be not as light as that? Tirado:
No. Cornwell:
All right. Then going to the
second book, you pointed to
photograph #4, when you looked at the book the first time.
What is your memory about that? Tirado:
He reminds me of Mirabal, he reminds me but not exactly. Cornwell:
All right. He looks a little
like Mirabal? Tirado:
Yes. Cornwell:
If I skip a photograph you remember looking at, let me know,
but I jotted down some notes as you came to 'em when you
looked at the book. You next
pointed to number 26 and 27.
Does that appear to you to be the same man? Tirado:
Yes. Cornwell:
And who was that? Tirado:
Ernesto Lefel. He used to
work with my husband. Cornwell:
Ernesto Lefel. And what's the
nature of the association
between he and your husband? Tirado:
He was working with him. Cornwell:
In the architectural business? Tirado:
Yes, yes. He's a designer. Cornwell:
He's a designer? Page
72 72 Silvia
Tirado Interview Page
12. Tirado:
He started working with us. He
learned some-- Cornwell:
Is he a social acquaintance of yours in addition? Tirado:
Is what? Cornwell:
Do you know him on
a social basis in addition to his being a
business associate your husband? Tirado:
No business associate. He was
working for him, for Horacio. Cornwell:
Okay. That's what I meant.
He was an assistant. Tirado:
Assistant. Cornwell:
All right. Tirado:
No social. Sometimes he came
to our house to dinner, or
something like that. Cornwell:
Next, you I believe pointed to Number 57.
Is that correct?
Fifty-seven? Tirado:
Yes. Cornwell:
Who does that look like? Tirado:
He looks like Gavino Fernandez. Cornwell:
What's the first name? Tirado:
Gavino. Cornwell:
Gavino? And who is he? Tirado:
Well, he's uh, dignitary, and he used to go to the Cuban
Institute. Cornwell:
He was a dignitary of what? Tirado:
He was working for the Social Security and he was working, not
in this government period, in the last Page
73 73 Silvia
Tirado Interview Page
13.
one, and he was working even with the President. Cornwell:
I see, so he was a dignitary of the Mexican Government. Tirado:
Yes. Cornwell:
Okay. Tirado:
But when he was going to the Cuban Institute, no, he didn't? Cornwell:
You also knew him from the Cuban Institute? Tirado:
He's an economist. Cornwell:
He's a what? Tirado:
Economist. Cornwell:
Economist. You then pointed
to number 65. Tirado:
Perhaps. Cornwell:
And that's a face that you're not sure you recognize? Tirado:
Yes. Cornwell:
but looks a little bit like who? Tirado:
Solchi Vargas. Cornwell:
But looks a little but like who? Tirado:
Solchi Vargas. Cornwell:
Solchi Vargas? ]Tirado:
Yes. Cornwell:
Okay. And who was she? Tirado:
She's Mexican lady who was married with a journalist, he used
to work for the Cuban press, and she used to live in
And now she's at the Cuban Institute. Cornwell:
I believe you next pointed to Number 111--- Page
74 74 Silvia
Tirado Interview Page
14. Tirado:
Yes. Cornwell:
And that's a, sort of a three-quarter shot from behind. tirado:
yes. Cornwell:
Of a man you think you might recognize, is that correct? Tirado:
Yes. cornwell:
I'm sort of trying to recall the way you stated it when you
first looked at the photographs, so if I misstated it, just
correct me. Who do you think
that man may be? Tirado:
The attache, the Cuban Cultural Attache at that time, Luis
Alberu. Cornwell:
Alberu? Tirado:
Alberu. Cornwell:
And then I believe you next indicated that you may recognize
Photograph 115? Tirado:
Yes. Cornwell:
And who is that? Tirado:
Luis Alberu. Cornwell:
That of course is a front and you can clearly recognize him
from that photograph, is that correct? Tirado:
Yes. Cornwell:
Then, you next pointed to Photograph 133.
Do you recognize
that man? Tirado:
Yes. Cornwell:
Who is he? Page
75 75 Silvia
Tirado Interview Page
15. Tirado:
The doorman. Now I don't
remember the name. Cornwell:
But he's the doorman who left Lee Harvey Oswald into the
Consulate on his third visit? Tirado:
Yes. Cornwell:
That's accurat? Tirado:
Uh?...I said yes. Cornwell:
Okay. And then I believe you
pointed to photograph 158? Tirado:
Numbers 157 and 158. Cornwell:
157 and 158. Who was that? Tirado:
I think that he was working at the Consulate in Vera Cruz? Cornwell:
And do you know what his position was at the Consulate? Tirado:
I think he was vice Consul but I'm not really sure. Cornwell:
And which Consulate is that? Tirado:
In Vera Cruz, Cuban, the Cuban Consulate. Cornwell:
The Cuban Consulate in vera Cruz. And
I believe finally you
recognized possibly the center man in the group photograph
labeled 275. Tirado.
Yes. Cornwell:
And who do you think he is? Tirado:
An American. Cornwell:
Do you remember anything more about him?
Page
76 76 Silvia
Tirado Interview Page
16. Tirado:
No. Cornwell:
Do you remember where you saw him? Tirado:
No. Cornwell:
Do you think you recognized the photo from a personal contact
or from a picture? Tirado:
From a picture I think. I
think he was an American
Ambassador. Cornwell:
American Ambassador? Tirado:
Or something like that. Cornwell:
All right. And you don't have
any memory what his name might
be? Tirado:
No. Cornwell:
Okay. Uh... Tirado:
But tell me, who is it? (Laughter.)
For a change. Cornwell:
Do you recognize the man in photo 266?
Yes, that's the one I
want. 266? Tirado:
No. He looks like Russian. Cornwell:
Do you recognize the man in 265? Tirado:
No. Cornwell:
Do you recognize the man in 213? Tirado:
No. You're not going to tell
me who's that man? Cornwell:
Not right now. (Laughter.)
But maybe later. When the
assassination occurred, do you remember where you were, when
you first heard the news reports? Page
77 77 Silvia
Tirado Interview Page
17. Tirado:
At the consulate. Cornwell:
And do you know what you did at that time? Tirado:
No, it was almost noon, I mean the lunch hour, about two
o'clock, or near two o'clock, and somebody came and said
Kennedy was killed, and all was confusion and, uh, well, we
were really sorry. Everybody
came in and went out and there
was confusion. All over.
And then I went home to have lunch. Cornwell:
Did you speak to Horatio or anyone else prior to going home? Tirado:
I don't remember, really. Cornwell:
When you went home was he at home? Tirado:
We used to have lunch. Cornwell:
And? As you recall he was
there on that day? Tirado:
It was my birthday so he has to be there. (Laughter.) Cornwell:
What if any conversation do you recall having with him at that
time about the assassination? Tirado:
No, I don't remember. I only
remember at night. Cornwell:
All right. You had a birthday
party planned that night. Is
that correct? Tirado:
Yes. Cornwell:
During the day, prior to the birthday party, had you received
or heard as part of the news broadcast the name Lee Harvey
Oswald? Tirado:
No, only in the afternoon. Page
78 78 Silvia
Tirado Interview Page
18. Cornwell:
In the afternoon, after lunch? Tirado:
Yes. Cornwell:
After you returned to the consulate, is that correct? Tirado:
Perhaps. Cornwell:
And at that time, did you think you remembered the name? Tirado:
It was, I think, at night, because, it was in the afternoon,
perhaps when they start saying about Oswald.
Right? and, it
was at night and uh, I don't know if I call my husband or we
were un the kitchen mixing some drinks or food, I don't know,
but we were in the Kitchen and I told him, I think this man
went to the Embassy to ask for a visa. Cornwell:
And at that time, had you heard his name? Tirado:
His name? Cornwell:
His name, seen his picture, or both? Tirado:
No, no. The picture was in
the newspapers the next day. Cornwell:
Okay. So you only thought
that you might have recalled the
name. Is that correct? Tirado:
No, not the name, but when they say Lee Harvey Oswald, married
to the Russian woman and he live in
that. Cornwell:
Okay. Did you have any other
discussion that you can recall
with him about it? based on
that news Page
79 79 Silvia
Tirado Interview Page
19.
report? About your contact? Tirado:
With my husband? Cornwell:
Yes. Tirado:
I only told him, I think this man came to the Embassy. Cornwell:
then, the next morning you saw a newspaper. Tirado:
Yes. Cornwell:
Were you sure at that time that that was the man? Tirado:
Yes. Cornwell:
Do you remember who was at the birthday party that night?
Do
you remember whether or not you discussed these events with
any one else at the party? Tirado:
Yes, we were talking about it. Cornwell:
Whoever was at the party. Tirado:
The whole night, yes. Cornwell:
What was the time of the party? Tirado:
Sorrow. And speculation,
what's going on? Because with
Kennedy we knew that was going on, but now, what will happen? Cornwell:
The next morning what did you do? Tirado:
I show the paper to Horatio and told him this is the man that
went to the Embassy and I went to the Consulate and I look in
the Archivos and I sqaw the application, I saw that it was the
man and I went to the Embassy and I talked to the Ambassador
and I told him that this... Page
80 80 Solvia
Tirado Interview Page
20 Cornwell:
What was the nature of your conversation with the Ambassador?
Just to tell him that that was the man? Tirado:
Yes. I think so. Cornwell:
What was his name? Tirado:
Fernandez Armes (or Hernandez). Cernwell:
And, did you do anything else? Did
you pull the file on him
or make any other attempts to put the facts together? Tirado:
I think I leave the file with him. Cornwell:
Pulled the file and left it with the Ambassador? Tirado:
Yeah, the whole bunch. Cornwell:
What would have been in the file besides the application, if
anything? Tirado:
Another applications. Cornwell:
I see, you pulled the whole file which included his
application? Tirado:
Yes. Cornwell:
Did anything else happen that morning at work? Tirado:
No. Cornwell:
Then, did you go home for lunch again? Tirado:
Yes. Cornwell:
And what occurred at that time? Tirado:
Uh, my brothers-in-law, servant, maid came and when she saw
me, she cried, she started crying, and she said "You're
alive?" And I say "why?", because some man Page
81 81 Silvia
Tirado Interview Page
21.
came to the house and says that uh, you had an accident and
you were dead and they take away Senor Ruben to identify you."
Then we went to Ruben's house and it was full of men and they
catch me. Cornwell:
They caught you. Okay.
And the men were representatives of
the Mexican police, is that corect? Tirado:
Yeah, but they never told me. Cornwell:
What happened when you walked into the house, to Ruben's
house? Tirado:
I saw my brothers-in-law, wife, and the same thing.
She
cries, and says "Silvia, you're okay?"
"Yes, I'm okay." She
was between two men and she couldn't get near to me, but I was
walking and I saw in the bedroom, it was Ruben, and full of
photographs on the bed and he said the same thing--"Silvia,
you're okay, you're all right?" and I say "Yes" and
"What
happened?" Then I saw
the telephone and I try to get the
telephone and a man hold my hand and he says you can't call
because you are under arrest, and they say, I don't remember,
but they say, ah, this is the accomplice of Kennedy.
I
thought that's what they told but I say I don't remember.
They told me, "You're under arrest."
I sat down on the bed
and I said "You have to show me an order signed by a judge
that I am under arrest." Then
they hold Page
82 82 Silvia
Tirado Interview Page
22.
me, my hands, and I try to defend myself, and they kicked
somebody and they took me-- Cornwell:
You were trying to kick them and keep them from taking you
with them, right? Tirado:
Yes, yes. Cornwell:
Who were you going to call on the telephone? Tirado:
The police. (Laughter.) Tirado:
The police, the lawyer, I don't know.
And when they took me
out of the house and I was crying, "Call the police, call the
police!" and they, he
covered my mouth, and they took me to
stationwagon that was parked at the corner.
There was a man
there but I didn't know him and I was quiet, and they say,
"Don't cry. Scandalous
woman." "Scandalous old
woman, shut
up. Because where we are
going we will see what's going to
happen to you." So, in
that moment, I said quit. Cornwell:
So you were taken to the police station. Tirado:
No. It's
not the police station. The office
where the
security, that was where the intelligence agencies were in.
But I didn't know that because that building belongs to the
State Social Security. Not
the one I work for. Cornwell:
Then? Tirado:
For government employees. Page
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Tirado Interview Page
23. Cornwell:
And who else was taken down there besides you? Tirado:
The whole--my brother-in-law, his wife, my sister-in-law, a
friend of hers, another woman that was there, and me, but they
were taken in another car. Cornwell:
And, at the police station what inquiries were made of you?
What did they ask? Tirado:
Everything. Everything.
They asked me my name, where was I
born, my jobs, when I married, my status, everything.
They
have my finger-prints, photographs of myself, everything.
And
uh, well, they ask me where I was working, if I had been in
Cuba, some people that I saw in Cuba, and what I was doing at
the Consulate, that there was a tunnel, that makes me laugh,
it was a tunnel from the Cuban Embassy to the Russian Embassy,
and uh, well, a lot of foolish questions. Cornwell:
Specifically, what did they allege that you had done? Tirado:
What? Cornwell:
Specifically, what did they allege you had done?
What did
they accuse you of doing? Tirado:
Nothing. They never said-- Cornwell:
During the questioning on all the subject matters that you had
mentioned, did they make a verbatim transcript? Tirado:
They used a little machine. They
say it is a stenograph or
something like that. Cornwell:
They made a stenograph record. Tirado:
Yeah, and a man was writing. Page
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Tirado Interview Page
24. Cornwell:
All the questions and all the answers? Tirado:
Yes. Cornwell:
Did any of the procedures that we have asked you about cause
you to say anything to the police that was not the truth? Tirado:
No, I don't think so. I don't
have nothing to hide.
So... Cornwell:
Everything that you told them was the truth? Tirado:
Yes. Cornwell:
At any time during the questioning did they ever allege that
you had met with Oswald outside the consulate? Tirado:
Yes. A lot of times. Cornwell:
Did they ever ask you any questions about a Negro? Tirado:
I don't remember. Cornwell:
You don't remember anything about that? Tirado:
No. Cornwell:
Did you ever know, during this same period of time, any
Negroes? Tirado:
Yes. At the Commercial
Attache was a Negro. Cornwell:
Anyone else? Tirado:
The doorman. Cornwell:
Anyone else? Tirado:
The wife of the Commercial Attache. And
the children. Cornwell:
Is that all? Did they ask any
specific questions about them? Page
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Tirado Interview Page
25. Tirado:
No. Cornwell:
What was his name? Tirado:
I don't remember. I even
don't remember if he was there when
Kennedy was shot. Cornwell:
Were they from Tirado:
Yes. Cornwell:
Did you know any other Negroes from
Consulate? Tirado:
I don't think so. Well, this
man, the boy at Consulado at
Vera Cruz. He was a Negro,
not completely, but-- Cornwell:
The one you showed us in the photograph? Tirado:
Yes. Cornwell:
Did you know any Negroes who had red hair?
None of the ones
you described did? Tirado:
No, we used to call "Red to a boy who was working there but he
was like Spanish; I mean he was white and-- Cornwell:
Not even very dark skinned? Tirado:
No. Cornwell:
Remember his name? Tirado:
Rogelio, Rogelio Rodriguez, I think, something like that. Cornwell:
After the questioning, first, how did that terminate?
When
did they finally release you? Tirado:
About One o'clock. Cornwell:
Did you meet again with your family, your husband? Page
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Tirado Page
26. Tirado:
Yes. Well, they were waiting for me and...
we went to have lunch, something to eat because we haven't
had. And well, we talk about
it. Cornwell:
Remember where you went? Tirado:
No. Horacio told me we went
to Sanborn's. I don't remember.
I even don't remember when I got home and what happened.
Next
day everyone know. Cornwell:
Did the officers from the Securidad Department ever suggest to
you during the questioning that they had information that you
and Oswald had been lovers? Tirado:
Yes, and also that we were communists and that we were
planning the Revolution and uh, a lot of false things. Cornwell:
What happened the next day? Tirado:
Well, we stayed home and at night a friend of ours came and we
didn't say anything. Cornwell:
Why was that? Tirado:
Why? Cornwell:
Why did you not say anything? Tirado:
Because these people told me to keep quiet. Cornwell:
The police? Tirado:
Yes. Cornwell:
Or the officers? Tirado:
Yes. Cornwell:
Did you then go back over to the Consulate either Sunday or
Monday? Page
87 87 Silvia
Tirado Page
27. Tirado:
On Monday. Cornwell:
Okay. What happened then? Tirado:
When I got there everybody ask me what happened?
And I say
"Why?" And in the newspaper was the this part of the question
that I told you about, Azcue telling Oswald to go away. Cornwell:
It was in the newspapers? Tirado:
Yes. Cornwell:
How did the newspapers get that story? Tirado:
I don't know. Cornwell:
You never had any idea? Tirado:
Well, of course. The police
gave it to Excelsior. It was
the
first government newspaper. Cornwell:
So you just always thought they got it from the police? Cornwell:
But the people at the Consulate said they had read the
newspaper and asked you what had happened, right? Tirado:
Yes. cornwell:
Did you discuss that with anybody that you can remember
specifically? Tirado:
With the Ambassador. Cornwell:
And what was the nature of that conversation? Tirado:
I tried to repeat all the questions. Cornwell:
Okay. Uh..would that have
been a violation of what the police
asked you to do? To talk to
the Page
88 88 Silvia
Tirado Interview Page
23.
Ambassador about that? Tirado:
Huh? Cornwell:
Was that a violation of what the police asked you to do?
Was
that... Tirado:
Well, of course, They told me
to keep quiet. I never says
anything about what happened on Saturday.
Never. but when I
saw in the papers I couldn't say "Well, nothing happened."
It
was all in the paper and it was exactly what I said to the
police. Cornwell:
What did the Ambassador say to you? Tirado:
That he was going to write a report and he sent it in the
plane. Cornwell:
What if anything did you consider doing at the time? Tirado:
What? Cornwell:
Did you consider taking any course of action at the time? Tirado:
Oh. I was going to make a
protest to the Mexican Government.
We went to, a friend of mine was a daughter of the Chief of
Tinetraph and we could reach the President and we were going
to ask to explain what happened and you know, there was an
illegal (tape stops)... Cornwell:
Did in additional to your considering filing formal protest
with the Mexican government, did you also consider taking a
trip out of the country? Tirado:
No. Page
89 89 Silvia
Tirado Interview Page
29. Cornwell:
Did you consider going to Tirado:
No. Cornwell:
What happened after that? Tirado:
Well, I told to the Ambassador all that happened during the
questioning and I told him also about the protest that we
wanted to make and I asked him, "Don't do anything because we
are trying to do something here, against these police."
And
after that, uh, Tuesday, I went to work and Wednesday morning
when I was going to have breakfast the police came again, two
agents, and they asked me, very polite, if I want to go with
them, just to answer some questions.
They wanted to know
something. And, uh, it was
unnecessary to take my car because
they were going to take me and bring me back.
So I called uh,
the Consulate. That's why I
remember I already had the
telephone and I said I'm coming in late because I'm going to
the police station. okay
don't worry, we wait for you. And
they keep me two days and a half. Cornwell:
And why did they tell you that they kept you this time? Tirado:
Oh, to protect me. Cornwell:
Did they tell you anything in any more detail?
Was there a
specific threat? Page
90 90 Silvia
Tirado Interview Page
30. Tirado:
No. They were very rough this
time. They were very angry
with me, the man that I told you, that I kicked him in his
balls. He was very angry, and
they repeat the same questions
but they were more, how you say, how do you say anticipito? Lopez:
They anticipated her. Tirado:
And they were, wanted to know exactly what I have done in
asking me questions about all the people that were working in
the Embassy and uh, this time I wanted to go to the bathroom
and they wouldn't take me and it was longer, because it was
about 10:00 from 10:00, I think almost 6:00, they questioned
me. Cornwell:
Were you afraid during the two periods they held you? Tirado:
Yes. I don't know exactly
what happened but I was uh, I was
innocent. So I said, what am
I doing here, no? And uh, the
only thing that I have, I had the feeling that I was going to
die and I said okay, if I'm going to die, I'm going to die,
how you say it, with pride, my child will not be shamed.
I
remember I do anything that--I was very dramatic in those
moments. So, sometimes I lost
my temper. I never say no bad
words or nothing. I cry
sometimes, I shout and things like
that but then I sat down again. Cornwell:
As I understand it, they tried to scare you, is that correct? Page
91 91 Silvia
Tirado Interview Page
31. Tirado:
Yes. The first time. Cornwell:
The first time. Because of
that was there anything that you
knew that you simply refused to tell them? Tirado:
That's what they thought. Because
all the time they tell me
that I was a Communist and I said I'm not a Communist, but do
you believe in Socialism? Yes,
I believe in Socialism but I'm
not a Communist; and they insisted that I was a very important
people for the government, the Cuban Government, and that I
was the link for the International Communists--the Cuban
Communists, the Mexican Communists and the American
Communists, and that we were going to kill Kennedy, and I was
the link. For them I was very
important. Of course, it was
not true. Cornwell:
Okay. Even though you were
innocent of those charges, you had
not conspired to kill the President and were not in the
Communist Party. Tirado:
Yes. Cornwell:
Because that was what they were interested in, because that
was the nature of the allegation, did you withhold any part of
your story? Were you afraid
that something you had done,
although innocent, they might have misconstrued,
misunderstood, so did you withhold any information from them
because of the very severe accusations they were making? Tirado:
No. I tried to answer it,
what they asked me I tried to
answer. All the time. Page
92 92 Silvia
Tirado Interview Page
32. Cornwell:
You understand though, the kind of question I'm asking you? (Tirado
spoke to Lopez in Spanish, who asked Cornwell to repeat the question.) Cornwell:
Okay, let me just ask you a hypothetical.
Sometimes, a person
has done something completely innocent but then they are
confronted with avery severe accusation.
They may think that
their innocent act will be misunderstood by their accusers so
they might withhold the innocent act simply to be sure that
they don't get into more trouble-- Tirado:
No. Cornwell:
Simply to be sure they don't get into more trouble than they
apparently are already in. Tirado:
No. cornwell:
There was no thing that you had done or seen or knew about
that you withheld because of that? Tirado:
No. No, I explain everything
that they wanted to know and uh,
I think sometimes they were fools. Cornwell:
They were what? Lopez:
Fools. Cornwell:
Fools. Tirado:
Tonto. Fools. Cornwell:
After they finally released you, they held you for another
two, two and a half days. Did
you make any Page
93 93 Silvia
Tirado Interview Page
33.
trips out of the country then? Tirado:
No. Cornwell:
How long did you continue to be married to Horatio after that? Tirado:
Five years. Cornwell:
Why were you finally divorced? Tirado:
We separate and we divorce perhaps four years after. Cornwell:
Why was that? Tirado:
Why? Why we divorce four
years after? Because we don't like. Cornwell:
Go ahead. Tirado:
Because he did not want to get legal problems and he said that
it was a lot of problems to get divorced.
He was married once
so he said that it was nonsense. Cornwell:
Why were you separated? Tirado:
Because I used to believe in the romantic love, and even we
have a very, how you say that, uh, we loved each other very
much but it was not the passionate love that I used to believe
in, so I thought it better to divorce, get divorced.
It is
very difficult to explain. (Tirado
speaks to Lopez in Spanish.) Lopez:
They were incompatible, had incompatible characters. Cornwell:
You have not spoken to anybody in the news media or any
official investigating body since 1963 about these events, is
that correct, except for the
Page
94 94 Silvia
Tirado Interview Page
34.
Washington Post and that was approximately a year or so ago, a
year and a half ago? Tirado:
Yeah. Cornwell:
You indicate that you read some part of the
Report recently. Do you
recall anything about that that was
inaccurate other than what you have already related?
The
part that you read. Tirado:
What? Cornwell:
Was there any part of that which was inaccurate that you can
recall? Tirado:
What I said. That I was
exceeding my duties. Cornwell:
Had you either done anything or offered to do
anything for Oswald other than what you have already
described to us? Tirado:
No. Cornwell:
And was that all within the scope of your responsibility? Tirado:
It was...? Cornwell:
Was it all within the scope of your authority? Tirado:
Scope? (Lopez
translates.) Tirado:
Yes. (Tirado
speaks to Lopez in Spanish.) Cornwell:
Did you ever have any of the people at the Cuban Consulate
attend parties in your home? Was
there Page
95 95 Silvia
Tirado interview Page
35.
a social relationship with any of them? Tirado:
Yes. Cornwell:
Which ones? Tirado:
Azcue, Maria Carmen, I think Luisa, she went once. Cornwell:
Who is that? Luisa? Tirado:
Luisa Caldaron, the one you ask me. Cornwell:
Okay. Azcue, Luisa, and the
secretary who was killed, is that
correct? Tirado:
Before, before this, before I used to work at the Embassy,
uh, and before we move to Constitutyentes we make some
parties, for instance, when Armando Hart (Ph.) was here, he
was the Minister of Education, and with the Ambassador he was
in that time and Organa, who was Director of the Movies
Institute. Some people who
came from
invite. Cornwell:
Okay. How about Theresa
Proenza? Tirado:
Perhaps she came. Cornwell:
Did you ever receive any indication from them that any of them
had ever had a contact with Oswald? Tirado:
No. Cornwell:
Did Elena or Elinita Garro do Paz ever come to those parties?
In your home? Tirado:
No. Cornwell:
Or in the home of Ruben? Page
96 96 Silvia
Tirado Interview Page
36. Tirado:
Once, but it was, I think it was before that I was in the
Cuban Embassy. Cornwell:
Would it have been aproximately around '63? Tirado:
I don't know because when they came from Cornwell:
Approximately 1963? Tirado:
I only, perhaps, I don't know. Hardy:
Did you say that it was when they came from Tirado:
Yes. Hardway:
It was after they returned from
of the parties? Tirado:
Yeah, to Ruben's house. Hardway:
At Ruben's house. Tirado:
Yeah. That was
the whole family there. I
only saw Elensa a
few times. One was the day
that I got married and another
time was somewhere else, I think three times I only saw her. Cornwell:
Did you know General Clark Flores? Tirado:
Yeah, but not very well. Cornwell:
Was he ever at those parties? Tirado:
I don't remember. Perhaps
once, at Ruben's house but not at
my house. Cornwell:
Did you know Emilio Carbillido? Tirado:
Yes. Cornwell:
Did he ever attend those parties? Tirado:
I don't remember. Page
97 97 Silvia
Tirado Interview Page
37. Cornwell:
Did Devaci? Tirado:
Devaci. Elena's sister. Cornwell:
Did she attend those parties? Tirado:
No, she went, I think I saw her sometimes at the Embassy. Cornwell:
How about Eunice Odio? Tirado:
No. I know her, I mean I met
her sometime. But, no.
She was
not a close friend. Cornwell:
Over the years, have any of those people ever indicated to you
that they had any knowledge of Oswald's trip to Tirado:
No. Cornwell:
Have they ever professed to have either seen him or heard any
stories about any one who did see or meet with him? Tirado:
No. Cornwell:
Has anyone else ever come to you since 1963 and professed to
have knowledge of Oswald's trip to Tirado:
No. Cornwell:
Would you have any reason to believe that if we spoke to any
of those people they could have information of help to us? Tirado:
I don't know. Cornwell:
Have you ever had any association with any intelligence
agency of any country, including our own? Page
98 98 Silvia
Tirado Interview Page
38. Tirado:
Once I met a Russian when I was working at the Press Agency
but he was from the Russian Press, and they say that he was
from the police, the Russian Police but I don't know. Cornwell:
But you just met him one time? Tirado:
Yes. Cornwell:
I don't have any additional questions. Lopez:
I have a few questions of Ms. Duran.
As normal procedure,
when a person came to the Cuban Consulate, do you explain to
them that there are different types of visas? Tirado:
No. Lopez:
So they would normally come to you and ask you for a special
type of visa, and then you would get that kind of application? Tirado:
Uh, huh. Lopez:
Okay. Tirado:
the application was the same. Lopez:
Same application. But they
were different visas. Tirado:
There were only two visas. Transit
visa and normal visa. Lopez:
You didn't normally explain to people whether there were two
different types of visas when they came to you until after-- Tirado:
Perhaps. Page
99 99 Silvia
Tirado Interview Page
39. Lopez:
Okay. I just wanted to read
to you a couple of sections of what
was recorded in the
happened was, there was a report given by the mexican
authorities to the
the report given by the Mexican authorities to the
Commission and it was published in the report and let me read
you one sentence, okay?
The declarant complied with her duties, took down all the
information and completed the appropriate application form,
and the declarant admittedly, exceeding her responsibilities,
informally telephoned the Russian Consulate with the intention
of doing what she could to faciliate issuance of the Russian
visa to Lee Harvey Oswald.
Is that statement accurate? Tirado:
It's that one and I don't like it. The
other one? Lopez:
That part about admittedly exceeding her responsibilities? Tirado:
Uh, huh. Cornwell:
That's the part you had reference to earlier when you told us
that you had read something-- Tirado:
Yes. Lopez:
It says here that you telephoned the Russian Consulate. Tirado:
Yes. Lopez:
Did he ever telephone you back? Tirado:
No. Lopez:
Okay. And it says here with
the intention of doing what she
could to facilitate issuance of the Russian visa.
Did you
ever do anything else to facilitate the issuance of the visa? Page
100 100 Silvia
Tirado Interview Page
40. Tirado:
No, nothing. I couldn't do
anything. Lopez:
Did you ever explain to him that in order to get a visa he
could have a recommendation letter from a fellow Communist or
a fellow Cuban citizen, and then if he had that letter, he
could get a visa? Tirado:
Yeah, that was one of the requirements. Lopez:
And then, did you ever send him to anyone, give him the name
of anybody? Tirado:
No, never. I mean I never did
that. Lopez:
I see. Okay.
Then there's another section here that says:
However, they told her (this is the Russian Consulate)
that there would be a delay of about four months in processing
the case.
Was that the first time that you explained to Lee Harvey
Oswald that it would take him about four months to get a visa? Tirado:
Yes, I didn't know it. Lopez:
Was that when he became angry? Tirado:
More or less. Lopez:
More or less. And that would
have been on his third visit? tirado:
Yes. Lopez:
Okay. Then there's one other
section here. It says:
The Consulate who came out and began a heated discussion
in English with Oswald, that concluded by Azcue telling him
that if it were up to him he would not give him the visa and a
person of this type was harming Page
101 101 Silvia
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41.
the Cuban Revolution rather than helping it.
It being
understood that in the conversation they were talking about
the Russian Socialist Revolution and not the Cuban.
Is that correct? Tirado:
No. Lopez:
What is your understanding of that? Tirado:
The conversation that he had with Azcue, was exclusively with
the Cuban Revolution. Lopez:
Exclusively with the Cuban Revolution.
I wanted to ask you,
in this report here, they don't say how many times Lee Harvey
Oswald visited the Cuban Consulate. Did
you ever tell the
Mexican officials how many times he had visited? Tirado:
I think so. Lopez:
And it was probably taken down by a stenographer. Tirado:
Yes. Lopez:
Do you consider this report which is about a page long to be
completely fair and accurate and complete? Tirado:
No, because about exceeding my duties and about Azcue speaking
about the Russian Revolution, that's not true. Lopez:
But, my question is, they interrogated you from about four in
the afternoon until about twelve at night, and in that process
you spoke to them for eight whole hours and yet the whole
conversation, interrogation, has been reduced to one page.
Do
you consider Page
102 102 Silvia
Tirado Interview Page
42.
this accurate? Is it
complete? Tirado:
No, of course not. Because
they ask me a lot of questions
that has not been in the
my job atthe Institute, the Cuban Institute, about why I have
been Communist, as they say, and i say I'm not a Communist,
and it takes hours to explain them. And
as you explain you
are not a Communist, if you are a member of the Communist
Party, things like that, and where did you take your beliefs,
no? I say at the University,
oh, at the University, and then
there's a discussion and uh, the classes I take at the
University, and things like that. Lopez:
Okay. You do remember telling
the Mexican officials when they
questioned you how many times Oswald visited the Consulate? Tirado:
I think so. And I, they asked
me I don't know how many times,
the way that I used to give my name and telephone number and
they made me write and they take the paper out and then again,
they ask me, how do you do this, and I write it down, and I
give the paper. I think I did
it five or six times. Lopez:
And did they ever ask you to describe Oswald? Tirado:
Yes. Lopez:
Would you do me a favor and describe him for me now? Page
103 103 Solvia
Tirado Interview Page
43. Tirado:
Yes. Lopez:
For example, let's start at the beginning.
Was he tall,
short? Tirado:
Short. Lopez:
Short. Could you stand up for
a minute, (Laughter.)
Would you say he was as tall as Tirado:
Yeah, more or less. Lopez:
Would you say he was taller than Tirado:
No, I think just the same. He
was about my size. Lopez:
About your height? Tirado:
Yeah. Lopez:
Okay. And what's your height? Tirado:
160. I think 160 or 162. Lopez:
Was he skinny? Tirado:
Yes. Skinny. Lopez:
Could you estimate how much he weighed? Tirado:
About your weight, more or less. Lopez:
About my weight. We already
went over... Tirado:
He has stronger shoulders, perhaps, than yours. Lopez:
Just for the record, my weight is 199 pounds.
You told us
before he had a suit on. Tirado:
That I don't remember very well. I
think he was wearing a
jacket but what I can remember is that he was not wearing nice
clothers, expensive clothing. Page
104 104 Silvia
Tirado Interview Page
44.
He was cheap, perhaps. Lopez:
Do you remember what his nose looked like?
Was it skinny?
Fat? Tirado:
No. He was normal. There
was nothing that you may remember.
The eyes were small. Lopez:
Small eyes. Tirado:
Smaller than yours. Lopez:
Smaller than mine, for the record. I
can't do that. Tirado:
If you describe, you say small eyes. Cornwell:
Okay. In sum, you identified
a picture in the book as being
as best as you can remember his face and hair.
Was there
anything about that which in your memory was different from
the picture other than the fact that you do remember his eyes
being blue or green and his hair being very light colored or
blond but not as light as some of the other pictures look. Tirado:
And he has not very much. He
was, has few, poco pelo. Lopez:
He didn't have very much hair. Cornwell:
Is there anything else about that picture in the book which
does not look like your memory of him? Tirado:
No, but because even when I saw the television when he was
shot, I used to remember him. I
mean it was the same that I
remember.. Lopez:
I understand. If you bear
with me just a few more
minutes--his hair line, was it receding? Page
105 105 Silvia
Tirado Interview Page
45. Tirado:
Yeah, yeah. Quite a bit. Lopez:
Okay. And his cheeks, were
they high cheek bones or low cheek
bones? Do you remember that? Tirado:
Well, I remember that he was a little, I don't know what you
call it (spoke with Lopez in Spanish.) Lopez
An elongated face. Tirado:
Uh huh. Lopez:
Did he have a long chin? Tirado:
No. Lopez:
(To Cornwell) : Do you have any more questions about his
description? Lopez:
(To Duran): Just wanted to ask you a few other questions.
Did
Luis Aparicio ever attend any of those twist parties that you
had, or that Ruben had? Tirado:
No, Ruben never, Ruben never have parties for the people at the
Embassy. Lopez:
Did he ever attend? Tirado:
Aparico, he was, I don't remember, where he was, I think he
works in the Commercial Office. I
don't remember. Lopez:
You don't remember if he went to any parties? tirado:
No. But he was at the Cuban
Embassy. Lopez;
Okay. Do you know a person
named Eunice Odio? Tirado:
Yes. Page
106 106 Silvia
Tirado Interview Page
46. Lopez:
What was your relationship to Eunice Odio? Tirado:
It was not close. I know her
because she's a poetess and uh,
well, I know a lot of painters, things like that, but just
hello and..perhaps if I meet her now I don't know if I could
recognize or even she recognize me. Lopez:
I see. And did she ever
attend any of those parties? Tirado:
No. Lopez:
Do you know a person named Ricardo Guerra? Tirado:
Yes. Lopez:
And what was your relationship to him? Tirado:
Very close. Lopez:
Very close. Could you
elaborate? Tirado:
Well, when I was unmarried I had a lot of friends and his
sisters were friends of mine, that's when I met him, before I
got married. And when I
married, we continued our friendship
and uh, he got married with a writer, but I admire her very
much, and he was a very close friend of mine, and we continue
the relation all the time that we were married.
Both. And
uh, how was professor at the philosophy faculty, he was my
teacher also. I mean he was a
close friend. Lopez:
I see. He was a professor,
you said. Tirado:
Yes. Lopez:
Did you ever attend any seminars at the
where he was lecturing? Page
107 107 Silvia
Tirado Interview Page
47. Tirado:
No, we used to have in our house. Lopez:
What were those seminars about? Tirado:
Marxism seminar. Lopez:
You never, though, attended any seminars at the University of
Tirado:
No, he was a teacher and I used to take lessons with him.
Existentialism, you know? (Spoke
in Spanish.) Only two
courses. Lopez:
Do you know if he ever held seminars at the University of
Tirado:
He had to. Lopez:
By any chance do you remember if he would ever hold seminars
on Saturdays? Tirado:
No. Lopez:
No, he did not or no, you do not remember? Tirado:
I don't know, I don't know. Hardway:
I've just got a few questions that if you'll bear with me...
During the three times that you met Oswald, did you ever hear
him speak any language other than English? Tirado:
No. Hardway:
In general, in the Consulate's Office, was it common for any
other language other than Spanish to be spoken? Page
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Tirado Interview Page
48. Tirado:
No. Hardway:
Was Russian ever commonly spoken at the Consulate's Office? Tirado:
No. Hardway:
Do you remember anyone having spoken Russian in that office? Tirado:
No. Hardway:
At any time? Tirado:
No, I don't think. The only language they speak, it was
English and not everybody, just a few of them. Hardway:
When Oswald came back the third time, did he tell you that he
had a Russian visa or that the Russians had told him that
there wouldn't be any problem? Tirado:
That he was going to get the Russian visa, that there was no
problem. Hardway:
Did he tell you that he was going to get it, or that he
already had it? Tirado:
He said I already got it. hardway:
And he told you that he already had it as oposed to telling
that they had assured him that there was no problem? Tirado:
Yes. Hardway:
Could you tell me what Eusebio Azcue thought about John
Fitzgerald Kennedy, President Kennedy? Tirado:
What he thought? About the
assassination? Page
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49. Hardway:
No, about President Kennedy. Tirado:
I don't know, I don't remember. Hardway:
Did you ever discuss President Kennedy with consul Azcue? Tirado:
No, he was not about the assassination but about Kennedy and
his policies and things like that. Tirado:
No. Hardway.
Did you ever hear
Azcue discuss it with anyone else? Tirado:
No. Hardway:
Did-- Lopez:
I don't remember if he came. His
son came, and I don't
remember if he came once to
conversation that he had with Fidel Castro but I told you the
other day what Fidel Castro but I told you the other day what
Fidel says and all of that and t he way they write a protest
to
if he was his son, or if he was Azcue. Lopez:
Would you have seen Azcue at any time during the last two
years? Tirado:
So, I think that I never saw him again.
His son, he came, I
saw him, but, Azcue, I don't remember. Lopez:
Do you know if Eusebio Azcue is still in Page
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Tirado Interview Page
50. Tirado:
I think so. I don't know. Hardway:
Did you ever discuss with Consul Azcue the policies of United
States towards Tirado:
Perhaps we did, but I don't remember. Hardway:
Do you remember by chance what Azcue's views would have been
on that? Did you ever discuss
Azcue's views on changing that
policy? Tirado:
What I remember is that during the Blockade (spoke to Lopez in
Spanish.) Lopez:
The Student Economic Bloc of 1968. The
strike, I'm sorry.
The economic blockade. Tirado:
What I remember but I don't remember exactly if it was Azcue,
the Commercial Attache, the Ambassador, but what I remember,
it was all the people, they have expectations and they were
how you say, trusting, that with Kennedy, the policy of the
American Government was changing. They
were hoping... Hardway:
Did you or anyone else at the Consulate ever offer Lee Harvey
Oswald any aid of any kind? Tirado:
No. Harday:
Did you ever know a person by the name of Guillermo Ruiz? Tirado:
No. Hardway:
Just for the record, when you were arrested on that Saturday
afternoon, what time that arrest was, approximately? Page
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Tirado Interview Page
51 Tirado:
About three o'clock. Hardway:
Was the interrogation that was conducted at that time
transcribed or taped? tirado:
It was written and when I sign I read it. Hardway:
Was it written out in a summary form or was it written out as
you said it? Tirado:
They change, because once it was a man with a little machine,
and another moment it was a man writing, typing. Hardway:
But most of it was taken down literally, as you said it?
Or
did you sign a summary of that? (Lopez
translated.) Tirado:
No, no, no. They were typing,
all the time. They were typing
all the time, even once, I don't know how many times, they
told me, slow, because he was writing.
But they didn't write
exactly what I said sometimes because when I read all of that
bunch of papers they say, come on, it's one o'clock, here,
sign this. I said, no, I'm
not going to sign this if I not
read it. And sometimes I said
this, I didn't say that. For
instance, no? For instance,
I'd remember, they say she was
very, very glad when Kennedy came. And
I say no. I said I
like it but I didn't say that I was Page
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Tirado Interview Page
52.
very, very glad. Things like
that, no?
But almost, it was what I said. But
they didn't want to
change anything. Hardway:
Okay.
Did you ever discuss the allegation that they made that
you had been lee Harvey Oswald's lover with your husband? Tirado:
Well, I told him almost all what happened.
He told me what
they did to him and I told him what they did to me. Hardway:
Do you remember specifically talking about that specific
allegation with your husband? Tirado:
No, it was not important. Hardway:
Going back to when you recognized Oswald, the man whose
picture you had seen in the paper as the man who had been at
the Embassy three times. Were
you certain that the man in the
papers was the same man, before you checked your records at the
archives? Tirado:
Yes. Immediately I saw the
paper, I told him. This was the
man that I want to check. Hardway:
To your knowledge, was Horatio ever a member of the communist
Party? Tirado:
I think that he was, I don't know if he was exactly member,
but he was sympathizer and we had a lot of friends that they
were members of the Communist Party. Hardway:
Uh, to your knowledge, was Horatio ever a member of any
intelligence organization? Page
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Tirado Interview Page
53. Tirado:
I don't remember exactly. I
think he was working for the, how
you say that? I think he was
in a campaign. Against the
drugs. Hardway:
Do you know when that would have been? Tirado:
No. Hardway:
Do you know when he would have been a sympathizer for, with the
Communist Party? Tirado:
Well, I'm completely sure. Being
Communist, being policeman.
All of that, it was after I meet him. Hardway:
Do you know why-- Tirado:
Do you know why they asked you to keep quiet after the first
interrogation? Tirado:
No, I don't. Hardway:
Did you ever attned a party where Lee Harvey Oswald was
present? Tirado:
The party where Lee, no, I don't know that he attends some
parties. Hardway:
The question was, did you ever attend a party where he was
present? Tirado:
No. Hardway:
That's all I've got. Page
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Tirado Interview Page
54. Cornwell:
Just two brief matters and I promise we will and this very
long questioning session. The
questions which were just
asked you about which languages he spoke, by Mr. Hardway, when
the call was made to the Russian Embassy, what language was
spoken there? Tirado:
Spanish. Cornwell:
Did the Russians speak Spanish too? Tirado:
Yes. Cornwell:
Did at any point in that conversation Russian-speaking people
get involved? Did anyone at
the Russian Embassy speak Russian
to you? Tirado:
I don't speak Russian. Cornwell:
Well. I understand that.
Did you at any point put Oswald on
the phone and let him talk? Tirado:
No, no. Cornwell:
The reason I'm asking of course is to try to jog your memory.
Did he at any point in that transaction speak Russian?
Did
Oswald speak Russian that you recall? Tirado:
No. Cornwell:
The second question, just to be sure that we've got your
memory as accurate as we can on it, have you not spoken to
Azcue at all since 1963? Page
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Tirado Interview Page
55. Tirado:
That's something that I don't exactly remember.
If he came
once or if he was with his son, but I knew all about Fidel's
and Azcue's conversations. Cornwell:
So you do remember either talking to Azcue or his son about
the Oswald trip? Tirado:
Not the Oswald trip, the Fidel, what he says.
Because Azcue
was called by Fidel Castro in that day when the Cuban
Ambassador sent my report. That's
what I told you the other
day. In the same day they
speak to azcue, Fidel, they spoke,
they have a conversation, and then on the second day, that
Sunday present, they protest to Mexican Ambassador. Cornwell:
You described to us earlier hwo the Ambassador filed a report.
Did you ever see the report? Tirado:
No. Cornwell:
Do you know what was in to by any other means?
To the best of
your knowledge, it would at least have (Tape
ends.) Page
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Tirado (Duran) Page
1. Cornwell:
Okay. The first part of your
memory is that, as I understand
it, the Ambassador filed a report within three days or so
after the assassination and your arrest, right?
Then you
mentioned something about Fidel talking to Azcue is that
correct? Tirado:
Yes. Cornwell:
How did you learn that? Tirado:
That's what I don't remember. Cornwell:
Okay. At any rate, what can
you remember about the nature of
the contact. between Azcue
and Fidel? Tirado:
Fidel asked him what happened exactly that day in the
Consulate and Azcue tried to remember everything and he said
what he knew, that Fidel was afraid of uh, if I was going to
say something false to, because I was threatened by the
police, and uh, Ascue says that no, that I was honest and I
was not going to do anything false. that
that was not the
right thing, the truth... Cornwell:
Okay. In other words, Fidel
was worried about the possibility
that you would say something against the Cuban Government? Tirado:
Yes. Cornwell:
And that's because you were a Mexican citizen, is that
correct? Page
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Tirado Page
2. Tirado:
And I was,...(asked lopez how to translate) threatened. Cornwell:
Okay. So he was afraid that
the Mexican authorities might
threaten you and that you might say something against the
Cuban Government? Tirado:
Yeah. Because the police many
times told me, you have to say
the truth. Remember that you
have a little child.
And...remember, you have a daughter.
And remember you have a
daughter. All the time they
were telling me this. Cornwell:
Okay. Did you possess any
information that might have
incriminated the Cuban Government? Tirado:
No. Cornwell:
And you can't remember how it is that you learned about this
questioning of Azcue by Fidel, is that right? Tirado:
Yeah. Cornwell:
Then, several years later, you had another conversation with
either Azcue or his son, is that correct? Tirado:
Yes. Cornwell:
Do you think it might have been Azcue? Tirado:
Could be. Cornwell:
Is that when you learned about his conversations with Fidel? Tirado:
Yes. Page
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Tirado Page
3. Cornwell:
During that period of time, when you spoke to Azcue two or
three years later, what if anything did he have to say about
the assassination? Tirado:
What did he say? Cornwell:
Yes. Tirado:
I don't know. Cornwell:
When you believed you may have talked to him.
Did he have any
theories or speculation? Tirado:
I don't remember. I only
remember the part that they were talking about me. Cornwell:
Did he believe as strongly as you apparently do that the
person who was on television and in the newspapers was the
same man who went into the Consulate? Tirado:
Yes. I don't know about
television because he was not here. Cornwell:
He was not on television here? Tirado:
No, no. Azcue was not here. Cornwell:
I know, but I mean when you talked to him two or three years
later. Did he say anything
about that? Tirado:
No. I don't remember. Cornwell:
Do you think for sure that the man who was on television was
the man who came to the Consulate? Tirado:
Yes. Cornwell:
The man who was killed by Jack Ruby? Tirado:
Yes. Page
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Tirado Page
4. Cornwell:
Did you see him being killed by Ruby on television? Tirado:
Yes, yes. Cornwell:
Was there anything about him that looked different to you? Tirado:
No. It was black and white.
So I couldn't see the color.
But he looks like the one that I met. Cornwell:
Guess that's all the questions and thank you again for being
so patient with us and answering all of our endless questions. Lopez:
It is 9:15 p.m. Page
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