Duran, Sylvia   HSVA Volume III

 

SELECT COMMITTEE ON ASSASSINATIONS

 

Name:  Silvia Tirado (Duran)                   Date: June 6, 1978  Time:______________

Address:____________________                      Place:____________________

               ____________________

 

Interview:

 

Cornwell:                  Would you like to state your name?

Tirado:                      Silvia Tirado Bazan.

Cornwell:                  And where's your present home address?

Tirado?                     Avenida Universidad 1900  Edificio 12  Departmento 402

                        Colonia Numero De Terrenos

Cornwell:      For the record, my name is Gary Cornwell, and

                        with me here is Ed Lopez, Harold Leap and Dan

                        Hardway.  We represent the House Select Committee

                        on assassinations of the Congress of the United

                        States.  Also with us here today representing

                        the Mexican Goverment is Honorio Escondon, Dr.

                        Alfonso Orozco Contreras.  Today is June 6, 1978

                        and the time is approximately 5:45 in the afternoon.

                        Would you tell us what your date and place of birth is?

Tirado:                      22nd of November, 1937.

Cornwell:                  You speak English so if you like my questions

 

 

Interviewer Signature______________________________________

Typed Signature: Gary Cornwell

Date Transcribed: br 6-19-78 

 

 

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                        translated we'll be happy to, and likewise, if you'd like to                         

                        answer in English that would be fine, or if you'd rather                             

                        answer in Spanish, we'll translate it.

Tirado:                      I try to speak in English.

Cornwell:      All right.  If you have any question about the what I phrase                                  

                        something or you don't understand it, simply ask and Mr. Lopez                                   

                        will translate it for you.

                        Your name in 1963 was what?

Tirado:                      Silvia Tirado de Duran.

Cornwell:                  And your husband at that time was who?

Tirado?                     Horacio Duran.

Cornwell:                  Are you presently employed?

Tirado:                      Yes.

Cornwell:                  Where's that?

Tirado:                      Social Security.

Cornwell:                  Prior to that, what  jobs did you hold?

Tirado:                      A long while, Social Security.  I used to write.

Cornwell:                  And any other jobs?  Have you held any other jobs?

Tirado:                      No.

Cornwell:                  At one time you worked for the Cuban Consulate.

Tirado:                      Yes.

Cornwell:                  Is that the only other job you ever held?

Tirado:                      No.

 

 

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Cornwell:      Well, let's say back since about 1960, could you tell us                             

                        what the history of your employment is?  Have you had many                           

                        jobs?

Tirado:                      I don't remember exactly, but uh, I used to work for the

                        Olympic Games.  I was a translator for two months.  And uh,                   

                        another three months I used to work for the, I don't know, it        

                        was an Exhibit of Hispanic Art that was, I don't know he went    

                        all over the world and I helped him to choose the pieces and      

                        as translator.  I was married in 1960.  I separate in '68,       

                        July '68 and I start working.

Cornwell:      During 1963, did you hold any jobs during that year other than

                        your employment at the Cuban Consulate?

Tirado:                      No.

Cornwell:      When did you first obtain the job at the Consulate and how did

                        you obtain it.

Tirado:                      Well, because I was uh, coordinating the Cuban, the         

                        Mexican-Cuban institute, the cultural Institute in '62, I        

                        think, and that's where I met some people.  Yes.

Cornwell:      That was a private organization, is that correct?

Tirado:                      It's not exactly private  I don't know because all the

                        countries have--there is the American Institute, there is the

                        Russian Institute, there is the French Institute.  It's

                        cultural relations between the countries.

Cornwell:      Was that associated with the Mexican government?

 

 

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Tirado:                      I don't know exactly, but I think--you know that.  (Asks Orozco)

(Translation)            The objective is to present culturally the different embassies      of

Orozco                      and consulates that are in Mexico .

 

 

Cornwell:      What was you job with that organization?

Tirado:                      Coordinator.

Cornwell:      And in connection with that, did you know any of the employees

                        at the Cuban Consulate?

Tirado:                      Yes, at the Cultrual Attache.

Cornwell:      And what were the names of those persons?

Tirado:                      Teresa Proenza and Luis Alberu.

 

Cornwell:      And who?

Tirado:                      Luis Alberu

Cornwell:      Did you in any other way know any of t he other employees at

                        the Consulate?

Tirado:                      Yes, well I knew Azcue, Eusebio Azcue who was a consul, and

                        uh, Maria Carman Olivari -- she's dead.

Cornwell:      She, in the summer of 1963, was a secretary.  Is that correct?

                        (If you nod you head, the recorder will not make any record of

                        what your answer is.)

Tirado:                      Yes.

 

 

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Cornwell:      Would you then explain to us how it was that you obtained the

                        job at the Consulate?

Tirado:                      Because my friend Maria Carman, she was dead--she had an     

                        accident, and during the funeral I told Azcue that if he wants                  

                        me to help him, for some people come from Cuba , just to help   

                        him.  And of course he says yes.  They need some people they

                        can trust, and I'd been working in the Institute. 

                        So...

Cornwell:      How was it that you knew Eusebio Azcue by this time?

Tirado:                      I don't remember, because he was uh, he was an Architect and

                        he knew a lot of people, friends of ours, I mean my husband

                        and I.

Cornwell:      Had he lived in Mexico for a long period of time?

Tirado:                      Yes, yes.

Cornwell:      And, because of his occupation, he would have known your

                        husband.  Is that correct?

Tirado:                      Yeah, more or less.

Cornwell:      Your husband Horatio was also an architect at that time.

Tirado:                      Industrial designer.  Yes, sir.

Cornwell:      Approximately when was it that you first obtained the job?

Tirado:                      the end of July or August, early August.  I don't

 

 

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                        remember exactly.

Cornwell:      And for how long did you continue to work there?

Tirado:                      Three or four months.

Cornwell:      How long after the assassination of President Kennedy did you

                        work there?

Tirado:                      Only two days.

Cornwell:      During that period of time what were the hours of operation of

                        the consulate?

Tirado:                      It was about 9:30 or 10:00 to 2:00 and in the afternoon about      

                        5:00 to 8:00 or something.  If we have a lot of work, we     

                        stayed longer.

Cornwell:      The hours were 10:00 to 2:00 and then 5:00 to 8:00.  Is that         

                        correct?

Tirado:                      Yes, that's true.

Cornwell:      Was the Consulate open for visitors during both of those sets   

                        of hours?

Tirado:                      No, it was just in the morning.

Cornwell:      Would you mind sketching for us what the physical layout of

                        the Consulate looked like at that time?  (pause) You have            

                        drawn a rectangular shape.  What formed the outside of it?        

                        Was it a solid wall around the outside?  Was the outside of

                        the premises a wall?

Tirado:          Yes.

Cornwell:      All right.  And we'll just mark it the way you

 

 

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                        drew it.  In the lower left-hand corner, there is a small box

                        you drew.  What is that?

Tirado:                      The consular.

Cornwell:      That's the consulate's office?

Tirado:                      Yes.

Cornwell:      All right.  We'll just put a one in that box, so we'll know

                        that's the consulate's office.  Then, the door was... where,

                        on the corner?..you remember the name of the streets, still         

                        today?

Tirado:                      This is Tacubayo.  this is Francisco Marquez.  You want me to

                        write it down?

Cornwell:      If you remember, yes.

Tirado:                      Here were the houses.

Cornwell:      All right.  You've labeled three sides of the building with  

                        street names and on the fourth side which on the top of the

                        drawing, you said they are houses.  Correct?

Tirado:                      Yes.

Cornwell:      What is in the long triangular shape on the drawing above the   

                        Consular office?

Tirado:                      It was the commercial office.

Cornwell:      All right.  We'll just put a two in there.  That's..

Tirado:                      And here was the cultural office.

Cornwell:      And behind that, we'll mark it with a three, was the cultural          

                        office.  In the center of the drawing

 

 

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                        is what?

Tirado:                      The Embassy.

Cornwell:      All right.  We'll put a four in that.  That's the Embassy. 

                        And what's the small box in the lower right-hand corner?

Tirado:                      I don't know how to say it in English.

Cornwell:      An entryway?

Lopez:                       Housekeeper.

Cornwell:      Oh, a housekeeper?  Okay.  We'll put a five in there.  What is       

                        all the rest of the space inside the premises?

Tirado:                      Garden, it was garden.  And here was the entrance for the

                        cars.

Cornwell:      And where you indicated there was an entrance for cars, we'll   

                        mark that seven.  And all the interior space which was garden,  

                        we'll mark with an eight.

Tirado:                      Down here there was a movie room.

Cornwell:      Where, behind the...?

Tirado:                      Behind the cultural room?

Cornwell:      Want to draw that?

Tirado:                      No, because this is the first floor.

Cornwell:      Oh, it was on the second floor.

Tirado:                      Yeah.  On the first floor was a projection...movies

 

 

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Cornwell:      Were the space which we marked one, two, three and also four,            

                        were they all two-story?

Tirado:                      Yeah.

Cornwell:      Okay.  And above the space marked one, what was there?

Tirado:                      The Consulate.

Cornwell:      So it was on two floors.

Tirado:                      No, there was another floor over here but it was belongs to        

                        the commercial... Only on the first floor was the Consultae.

Cornwell:      I see.  What would be behind the Consulate on the first floor? 

                        In this area marked two?

Tirado:                      I don't remember.

Cornwell:      You don't remember.  So, where we marked two, that was a

                        second story in that area.  Correct?

Tirado:                      Warehouse perhaps.

Cornwell:      Just a storage area or something like that, perhaps, in the

                        lower area marked two.  In the space marked number one, which

                        was the Consular's office, who all occupied that area?

Tirado:                      Well, Consul, the Vice Consul and the secretary.

Cornwell:      Which was you.

Tirado:                      Yes.

Cornwell:      During the time that we're interested in.         

 

 

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                        The Consul's name of course was Eusebio Azcue.  The Vice     

                        Consul's name was what?

Tirado:                      I don't remember.

Cornwell:      All right.

Tirado:                      This was Consulate.

Cornwell:      All right.  You have divided the area that we originally

                        marked number one into two units.  The smaller unit indicates

                        where the Consul sat and you sat in a larger reception area        

                        in the front?

                        All right.  And then, behind the Consul's office, was there

                        another door?  You marked that with a heavier area, and that     

                        would be where he could walk out into the courtyard.  Is that     

                        corret.  So if you wanted to get into the Consul's office,

                        including the reception area from the courtyard, you needed to

                        walk through the Consul's office.  Is that accurate?

Tirado:                      Yes.

Cornwell:      Now, what kind of a door was at the corner, the lower       

                        left-hand corner here, so that if one were to walk from your         

                        office to the street, what kind of door was that?  Glass,                 

                        wood, solid, could you see through it?

Tirado:                      No, it was solid.  I don't remember exactly, but perhaps I was     

                        wood.  But it was solid.

 

 

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Cornwell:      You don't remember being able to see out on the street?

Tirado:                      No, no.

Cornwell:      Okay.

Lopez:           You enter the Consulate right, in here?

Tirado:                      Uh huh.

Lopez:                       And your office would be right around here.  Right?

Tirado:                      My desk was here.

Cornwell:      You have drawn a small box now inside the larger half of the     

                        area we originally marked area number one, that's where our

                        desk was?

Tirado:                      Yes.

Lopez:                       From where you sat to the entrance into the office where you

                        were, where would the entrance into the office be?  Not into       

                        the whole consulate, but just into your office?

Tirado:                      It was open.

Lopez.           Okay, it was open.

Tirado:                      You would enter here.  Here was the stairs for the second

                        floor, No?--and here I think there were chairs, or something        

                        like that.  For the people who were waiting.  And the desk was   

                        here.

Lopez:                       Okay.  Where would the entrance to your office be?

Tirado:                      Here, or here.

Lopez:                       Just to your office, not to the Consul's office. 

 

 

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                        It would be at the same entrance?

Tirado:                      Yes.

Lopez:                       And from where you sat, you couldn't see outside at all?

Tirado:                      No.

Lopez:                       You couldn't see any area in the yard?  There was no glass.

Tirado:                      No.  I can remember glass, a window, yeah.  I can remember      

                        windows here, and perhaps here, but I don't remember.

Cornwell:      Okay.  There may have been windows for you to see out in the

                        street?

Tirado:                      Yeah, but I couldn't see outside because perhaps they were

                        very high.

Cornwell:      While Mr. Lopez was asking you questions, he drew a diagonal

                        line across your office space.  Does that represent anything?    

                        That line should not have been drawn, is that correct?

Tirado:                      yeah.  (Laughs.)

Cornwell:      Now, did you know a Teresa Proenza?  Was she employed at the

                        Consulate or the Embassy.

Tirado:                      The Embassy.  She was the Cultural Attache.

Cornwell:      She would have worked in the area marked number four?  Is that

                        correct?

Tirado:                      Well, yes.  But this was, this construction was uh,  

                        afterwards.  This was the Embassy and the Consulate and

                        building was under construction,        

 

 

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                        constructed.  A building.

Cornwell:      Constructed?

Tirado:                      Later.  It was the old building.

Cornwell:      Did she work there during the same period of time you did?

Tirado:                      Yes.

Cornwell:      At the period where did she work?  What area?

Tirado:                      Here.

Cornwell:      That's the area we marked number three on the diagram.  Did    

                        you know a Louisa Calderon?

Tirado:                      Louisa?  Yes, she was in the commercial...

Cornwell:      And where would that be on the diagram?  In the area we marked

                        number two?

Tirado:                      I think her office was exactly above mine.  She was a        

                        secretary.  And I think it was above.

Cornwell:      Either above the area we marked one, or the area marked two,

                        but on the second level.

Tirado:                      Yes.

Cornwell:      Do you know the names of any other employees who worked there    

                        at the time?

Tirado:                      No, I don't remember.

Cornwell.      The man named Mirabal, he was to replace Eusebio Azcue, is    

                        that correct?

Tirado:                      Yes.

 

 

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Cornwell:      And do you recall aproximately when he arrived in Mexico city

                        and began to learn the job so he could take it over from   

                        Eusebio Azcue?

Tirado:                      I didn't understand, what did you say please?

Cornwell:      Do you remember approximately when he arrived?  And began to

                        learn the work from Azcue.

Tirado:                      No, some weeks earlier, I don't remember.

cornwell:       Would it be accurate to state that your best memory as you        

                        told us when we spoke to you informally before we turned the

                        tape recorders on, that he was already there when you met the

                        man you later identified as Oswald?

Tirado:                      Yes.

Cornwell:      Now.

Tirado:                      But he wasn't there when I started working at the Embassy, at  

                        the Consulate.

Cornwell:      Okay.  So he much have arrived in late summer or perhaps         

                        September, or something like that.

Tirado:                      Yes.

Cornwell:      Now, were there telephones in the office?

Tirado:                      Here.

Cornwell:      You had one at your desk?

Tirado:                      this is the desk and here was a little table.

                        I think it was the telephone.  Here was the

 

 

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                        safe box.  And here was the Archivo.

Lopez:                       Archives.

Cornwell:      So you've drawn two smaller boxes next to your desk.  One of

                        them was like a filing cabinet, or for storage of records?

Tirado:                      Yes.  This one.  The Files.

Cornwell:      And the other one was a table.

Tirado:                      No, here was the safe box.

Cornwell:      Oh, a safe.  I see, a safe.  And there was a phone at the     

                        desk?

Tirado:                      Yes.

Cornwell:      And did Azcue also have a telephone?

Tirado:                      Yes, it was the same but with an extension.

Cornwell:      Extension.

Tirado:                      Here was the door.

Cornwell:      All right.  1963, where were you living?  Did you have more         

                        than one residence?

Tirado:                      Yes.  Constituyentes 143.

Cornwell:      And during what part of 1963 was that?

Tirado:                      When I moved there?

                        Before i started working, at the embassy.  But just a few

                        weeks...

Cornwell:      So sometime in the summer of 1963.  Did you have

 

 

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                        a telephone at your home?

Tirado:                      Not at the moment that Oswald came.  Because we had just

                        moved.  I think we moved in July because we were separated in

                        July, also, July '68 and it is when the contract finished.  So

                        perhaps...

Cornwell:      I see.  Your rent contract ran out in July of '68?

Tirado:                      Yes.

Cornwell:      About the same time that you and Horatio were divorced?

Tirado:                      Yes.

Cornwell:      Did you, you say that because of your move, it took some time

                        to get a telephone in your home?

Tirado:                      Yes.

cornwell:       And do you remember approximately when it was that you finally         

                        got that in?

Tirado:                      At the assassination we had, a, let me see, we didn't have

                        telephone--days later.

Cornwell:      It was sometime after the assassination that you first got a

                        telephone in this residence.

Tirado:                      Yes.

Cornwell:      And do you by any chance recall the telephone number at the

                        Consulate?

Tirado:                      Oh, so many times I write it down.  Perhaps it was 11-28-45,

                        perhaps?

 

 

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Cornwell:      Could it have been 11-28-47?

Tirado:                      Perhaps.

Cornwell:      When were you first advised that we wanted to speak to you?

Tirado:                      Last week.

Cornwell:      And since that time, of course, last Wednesday, I believe it

                        was, we spoke to you informatlly, and told you basically what

                        we were interested in.  And learned most of what you could

                        remember about the events we were interested in.  Correct?

Tirado:                      Yes.

Cornwell:      Apart from that, have you had any other oportunities to read      

                        anything, or speak to anyone, in order to refresh your memory

                        about the events?

Tirado:                      Yes.  In October of '76 some journalist from the Washington

                        Post came to interview me.

Cornwell:      We are familiar with the story that appeared in the Washington

                        Post at approximately that time.  Apart from that have you for     

                        instance read the Warren Commission Report?

Tirado:                      Yes. 

Cornwell:      When did you last have an occasion to read that?

Tirado:                      Oh, when Horacio told me you were coming, I was writing, and I

                        try to remember exactly and I'm starting saying that again,          

                        the nightmare came, and so on

 

 

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                        and so on, and I wanted to check the dates.

Cornwell:      So, last week sometime, you had a chance to read it over

                        again?

Tirado:                      No, not everything just the one little thing.

Cornwell:      Just the part that dealt with Mexico city and your testimony        

                        and that sort of thing.  Correct?

Tirado:                      Yes.

Cornwell:      Let me ask you, when you read that, was there any part of it       

                        that seemed to you to be inaccurate?

Tirado:                      Inaccurate?

Cornwell:      Not correct.

Tirado:                      Not correct?  Yes, but with the warren Commission, I get angry

                        when I start reading it because they make some afirmacionnes

                        (ph).

Lopez:                       Allegations or conclusions.

tirado:                        Yes.  I don't like it.  So I tried to erase it.

Cornwell:      Okay.  What specifically about the report was it that makes         

                        you angry?

Tirado:                      That I was a--let me see how to say it--, I don't remember

                        exactly, but uh, I did more to Oswald when he was here than      

                        was my job, that it was extra.

Cornwell:      You mean part of the report that suggests that you went

                        beyond your duties at that Consulate, that you exceeded your  

                        authority, and you thought that you did not do so.  Is that            

                        correct?

 

 

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Tirado:                      Correct.

Cornwell:      Is there anything else about the Warren Commission Report's   

                        resume of the facts that you felt was inaccurate, that made         

                        you mad?

Tirado:                      I cannot answer that because I only read at that time two

                        pages.  I didn't read the whole thing.

Cornwell:      Okay.  In addition to looking at that in order to refresh you          

                        memory, have you had a chance to speak to any one else?

Tirado:                      No, it was just for checking my writing.

Cornwell:      What writing was that?

Tirado:                      Well, I was trying to remember everything that happened in the

                        interrogatory.  It was not hard, I mean, what I felt, but uh,  

                        what the police had done to me, so it was my but I'm writing,      

                        I'm writing an autobiographia how do you say that, and this is   

                        a chapter.

Cornwell:      I see.

Tirado:                      (Laughs.)

Cornwell:      Directing your attention than to approximately late September

                        of 1963, as we learned from you the other day, a man came to

                        the Consulate, a man who you later associated with pictures in

                        the newspaper and a name in the newspaper of the alleged        

                        assassin of the President.  Is that correct?

 

 

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Tirado:                      Yes.

Cornwell:      Do you remember how many times he came to the Consulate?

Tirado:                      Three times.

Cornwell:      Do you remember the date or dates upon which those three

                        visits occurred?

Tirado:                      No, I saw the application.  You showed me the other day, and    

                        in the Warren Commission was September 27, but I didn't           

                        remember, of course, until I read it.

Cornwell:      All right.  Do you have a recollection whether it was all on

                        one day or on separate days.

Tirado:                      The same day.

Cornwell:      On the very first visit, would you describe to us what the man    

                        said and did, and what you said in response?

tirado:                        Yes, he, well, he enter and he ask me if I speak english and I       

                        say yes, and then he start asking me about requirements to go

                        to Cuba , to get a visa to go to cuba , and I explain it.

Cornwell:      What did you explain?

Tirado:                      Well, that he needed to, he said that a transit visa so that

                        he needs a visa to the country that he was going, from, if it

                        was a Socialist country, the visa was given, as soon

 

 

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                        as he gets the other visa, and uh...

Cornwell:      When he first asked about the requirements for a visa, did he

                        tell you that his objective was to go to cuba or to another            

                        country?

Tirado:                      To the Soviet Union .

Cornwell:      Did you ever suggest to him that there was any alternative

                        means to acquire a visa other than the in-transit visa        

                        requirement which you just described?

Tirado:                      I don't remember, I mean I hardly remember.  But what  used to

                        say is if you want to go to Cuba , you need or you have to have

                        friends in Cuba , so they may, what do you say, take          

                        responsibility, if you get the visa.  That was one way, no?           

                        And the other way was in-transit.

Cornwell:      Okay.  If I understand then, you don't have a distinct         

                        recollection about exactly what you said to Oswald, but you      

                        asumed it was what you said to everyone who came in, which was

                        that you explained both processes, that they either must have  

                        friends in Cuba or the in-transit visa could be granted if

                        they got a visa from another country.

Tirado:                      No, if only they asked me.  Because they usually go there and

                        say, "I want to go to Cuba ."  But if they say I'm just in

                        transit, then I explain

 

 

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Cornwell:      Okay, then.  Let me see if I can rephrase it and get what's in

                        your mind as best we can.  Is it your best recollection that           

                        you did explain both alternatives to Oswald?

Tirado:                      I don't remember exactly, because I think he immediately says

                        that he wants to go to Russia , and he was in transit to go to       

                        Cuba .  I think he immediately says so.

Cornwell:      Okay.  So then your best recollection that you may have only    

                        explained the in-transit visa process.  Is that correct?

Tirado:                      Yes.

Cornell:         But, I gather from the way you have answered the question,       

                        there is still the possibility that you also discussed with   

                        him going to cuba if he had friends, but you're not sure about

                        that second one.  Is that accurate?

Tirado:                      Yes.

Cornwell:      Now, after this first basic explanation, what if anything did          

                        he say or do?

Tirado:                      Well, I don't remember exactly.  He show all the paper that he     

                        had, when he gave me the application when he came back,...

Cornwell:      Okay.  Wait a minute.  Just the first visit.  Is there anything           

                        else about the first visit?  Or,

 

 

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                        did he leave at that time and if he left, why did he leave?

Tirado:                      To have photographs of himself.

Cornwell:      Okay.  So your memory is that on the first occasion you also     

                        explained to him that he needed photographs and he left            

                        shortly thereafter to obtain them.

Tirado:                      Yes, and perhaps, but I'm not very sure, that, uh, he said

                        that he was a friend of the Cuban Revolution, and when he

                        showed me all the scrap paper that he has.

Cornwell:      All right.  You don't remember if that was on the first or the

                        second occasion.  Correct?

Tirado:                      Yeah, I don't remember.

Cornwell:      Nevertheless, he did leave to go get photographs, and he did    

                        return?

Tirado:                      Yes.

Cornwell:      Did he return with the photographs?

Tirado:                      With four photographs.

Cornwell:      Four of them.

tirado:                        Yeah.

Cornwell:      Were they all the same?  To the best of your memory, was he    

                        wearing the same kind of clothes that he was wearing that day

                        in the photographs?

Tirado:                      Yes.   

 

 

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Cornwell:      So, from all the circumstances, did it appear to your that he

                        just went somewhere locally and had the pictures made?

Tirado:                      Yeah.  I think that I already explained (to) him where he

                        could take the photographs.

Cornwell:      You told him some locations in town where ge could go?  Were            

                        there some right in the neighborhood of the Consulate there?

Tirado:                      That I don't remember.

Cornwell:      All right.  But at any rate you knew of some place at the    

                        time, mentioned one or two places to him?

Tirado:                      Yes.

Cornwell:      Correct?... Did you look at the photos when he brought them

                        back, careful about to be sure that it was the same man who      

                        was standing in front of you?

Tirado:                      Yes.

Cornwell:      And what did you do at that time?

Tirado:                      I filled out application.

Cornwell:      You personally typed it, and did you type it in duplicate or          

                        triplicate or just one copy?

Tirado:                      Duplicate.

Cornwell:      And was the second copy a carbon?

 

 

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Tirado:                      Carbon?

Cornwell:      Did you have it twice or did you type one and make two copies?

Tirado:                      Only one.

Cornwell:      And made two?

Tirado:                      Yes.

Cornwell:      And what did you do with the photographs?

Tirado:                      Stapled them.

Cornwell:      Stapled them?

Tirado:                      Yes.

Cornwell:      On top of the application.

Tirado:                      Yes.

Cornwell:      The application has a place on it for a date, is that correct?

Tirado:                      Yes.

Cornwell:      Did you type in the date that was in fact that day?

Tirado:                      Yes.

Cornwell:      Let's just talk hypothetically for a moment.  Is there any

                        chance that he was at the Consulate on more than one day?

Tirado:                      No.  I read yesterday, an article in the Reader's digest, and          

                        they say he was at the Consulate on three occasions.  He was  

                        in Friday, Saturday, and Monday...That's not true, that's   

                        false.

 

 

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Cornwell:      All right.  Let's try a different hypothetical.  If the one in

                        the Reader's Digest is definitely wrong, is it possible that            

                        he first came on like a Thursday, and then came back on a         

                        Friday?

Tirado:                      No, because I am positively sure about it.  That he came in         

                        the same day.

Cornwell:      Let me ask you then something about just the procedures or the

                        Consulate at the time.  Would it have been consistent with          

                        your normal procedures for you to have typed the application   

                        on his first visit, even though he didn't have a photograph to     

                        put on it?

Tirado:                      No.

Cornwell:      In other words, before you started the process of typing it,         

                        you were sure you had everything you needed to make it

                        complete.

Tirado:                      Yes.

Cornwell:      Did he tel you where he was staying at the time?

Tirado:                      No.

Cornwell:      Did you recall any problem with him not knowing any address,

                        where he was staying in Mexico City ?

Tirado:                      No, because he say that he has no time to wait, he was in a        

                        hotel and uh, I didn't ask  the address, in Mexico City        

                        because I mean didn't care.

Cornwell:      You didn't have a need to know that?

 

 

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Tirado:                      No.

Cornwell:      Do you recall any problem coming up where he needed to know

                        it?  For any other reason?

Tirado:                      Me to know his address?

Cornwell:      No, for him to know.  Did he have any problem, did he have any            

                        need to know it himself?  Do you remember anything along those

                        lines?

Tirado:                      No.

Cornwell:      Going back to the second visit, is it your memory that you

                        typed the application in duplicate, you stapled the pictures at    

                        the top of each copy, if that correct?

Tirado:                      Yes.

Cornwell:      Then what did you do with the application?

Tirado:                      Well, I used to put it in a file, and uh, I used to keep one    

                        copy, another to send, the original, we used to send to Cuba . 

                        And I think I have another file.

Cornwell:      Was he required to sign the application?

Tirado:                      He sighned it, yes.

Cornwell:      Did he sign one or both of them?

Tirado:                      I think both, it has to be.

Cornwell:      Was there any requirement in the Consulate that he do it in        

                        any particular person's presence?  Anyone have to watch him

                        while he signed it?

Tirado:                      I don't know, I mean I just don't remember.

 

 

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Cornwell:      As a hypothetical, did Azcue have to watch people sign the        

                        applications?

Tirado:                      No. He was in his office.

Cornwell:      So you could handle that all by yourself.

Tirado:                      yes.

Cornwell:      Did he sign it in your presence?

Tirado:                      Yes.

Cornwell:      Did anything else occur on the second visit, any other     

                        conversation, or any other event?

Tirado:                      No, but I told you, it's uh, he said that he was a friend of

                        the Cuban Revolution.  He show me letters to  the Communist   

                        Party, the American Communist Party, his labor card, and uh,

                        he's working in Russia , I don't remember exactly, but he said    

                        on his application, his licence number...

Cornwell:      Marriage license?

Tirado:                      (Spoke in spanish.)  Se dice serup los recortes del

Cornwell:      Okay, we had to pause for a second to turn the periodico tapes

                        over.  As I recall, you were explaining the kinds of things he       

                        brought with him.

Tirado:                      Yes, it was his labor card, form Russia , his us, marriage

                        pact, yes, that he was married with a Russian, and uh, a  

                        clipping that he was with two policemen taking him by his

                        arms, that he was in a meeting to support Cuba .  And a card

                        saying that he was a member of the Fair Play for Cuba in New

 

 

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                        Orleans .  And

Cornwell:      Do you recall what was said or what occurred that caused him

                        to produce all of these documents about his having a Russian  

                        wife and his Fair Play For Cuba activity?

Tirado:                      Just a minute.  (Spanish--what means recall?)

Lopez:                       Recordar.

                        He showed me all of these papers to demonstrate that he was a

                        friend of the revolution.

Cornwell:      But did you say anything to him or did anyone else say

                        anything to him that made him feel he needed to produce this

                        kind of documentation.

Tirado:                      No, I don't think so.  What I said is that when he said he was       

                        a member of the Party, of the Communist Party, the American, I

                        said why don't they arrange, the Party, your Party with the          

                        Cuban Party, and he said that he didn't have time to do it.

Cornwell:      Did you ask him why hw didn't just have the Communist Party  

                        arrange his trip to Cuba ?

Tirado:                      Yes.

Cornwell:      The Cuban Communist Party?  He just said he didn't have time?

Tirado:                      Yes.  Because there was a manner to do it.  I mean, we get,         

                        for instance, the visa directly

 

 

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                        from Cuba and saying give the visa to this people that's

                        coming and somebody say oh, yes, you have  you visa here.

Cornwell:      Do you recall anything else happening on the second occasion?

                        Or have you related all that's in your mind on that?

Tirado:                      No.  It was strange.  I mean because I you are a Communist and

                        you're coming from a country where the Communist Party is not          

                        very well seen, and in Mexico City that the Communist Party      

                        was not legal at that moment -- crossing the border with all         

                        of his paper, it was not logical.  I mean if you're really

                        communist, you go with anything, I mean just nothing, just         

                        your passport, that's all.  And that was something that I

                        didn't like it but...

Cornwell:      So, you were a little suspicious of the amount of

                        documentation he brought?

Tirado:                      Yeah.

Cornwell:      Did you say anything to him about that?

tirado:                        Perhaps I told him, what are you doing with all of this?  And       

                        he said to prove I'm a friend of yours.

Cornwell:      Did you discuss your suspicions with anyone else?

Tirado:                      With the consul.

Cornwell:      With Azcue?

 

 

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Tirado:                      Yes.

Cornwell:      Do you remember when that discussion occurred?

Tirado:                      It was afterwards.

Cornwell:      Was that after his second visit as you recall?

Tirado:                      It was during his third visit.

Cornwell:      During his third visit.  All right.  Let's back up again for

                        just a moment.  what time of day as best as you recall did he      

                        come to the Consulate the first time?

Tirado:                      Perhaps it was eleven o'clock or something like that, ten

                        thirty.

Cornwell:      And the second time?

Tirado:                      About twelve, or eleven, no, about one o'clock.

Cornwell:      Okay.  The first one was roughly late morning, and the second

                        one was early afternoon.

Tirado:                      Yes.

Cornwell:      And then, when did he leave the second time?

Tirado:                      To get his Russian visa.

Cornwell:      Would it have been the standard procedure in the Cuban

                        Consulate, to take the application, have him sign it, and have     

                        it ready to go in the file if the request was in-transit, for

                        an in-transit visa, even though he did not have the visa from      

                        the third country.  Or from another country?

Tirado:                      Uh, huh.

 

 

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Cornwell:      All right.

Tirado:                      Yes, I did send it to Cuba .

Cornwell:      All right.  Okay.  So, then you sent him in effect, to the

                        Russian Embassy.  And it was at that point after he left that

                        you spoke to...

Tirado:                      No.

Cornwell:      No, you didn't speak to the Consulate at all yet.

Tirado:                      No.

Cornwell:      Had there been any problem at all yet?

Tirado:                      No.

Cornwell:      So far, it's like any normal visa appplication.

Tirado:                      Yes.

Cornwell:      Would it have been consistent with the procedures in the           

                        consulate or you to have allowed him to take one or both of       

                        the applications typed up outside the Consulate?

Tirado:                      I don't remember very well if uh, there were only two copies.      

                        I mean, one original and one copy, but uh, it could have   

                        happened, but I don't remember.

Cornwell:      Okay.  To the best of your memory then, the person who made

                        the application was not permitted to have a copy.

Tirado:                      I don't know.  I don't remember.

Cornwell:      Okay.  You're not sure.  But your tentative memory is that

                        would not have occurred.

 

 

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Page 33.

 

Tirado:                      No.

Cornwell:      Is that correct?

Tirado:                      Yes.

Cornwell:      Would you have ever allowed a person to take all of the

                        applications outside and attach the photos or sign them

                        themselves?

Tirado:                      Yes, because you may come, ask for the application and you may

                        keep it.

Cornwell:      You, on occasion, would allow someone just to have a blank     

                        copy.  Is that correct?

Tirado:                      Yes.  But he was different because he did not speak in Spanish

                        so I have to fill it.

Cornwell:      I see.  If he would have spoken Spanish or professed to having

                        someone with him who did speak Spanish, you might have allowed    

                        him to take the applications and fill them out.

Tirado:                      Perhaps.

Cornwell:      At least on other occasions you have done that, with other         

                        people.

Tirado:                      That's something that I really don't remember.

Cornwell:      There at least, there was no requirement that you type it  

                        there in the office, as long as it got filled out.

Tirado:                      I think I have to type it.  I have to type it because I have     

                        to make some observations, always.

Cornwell:      Down at the botton?

Tirado:                      Yes.

 

 

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                        And I think that if you fill it in handwriting, I have to type

                        it, for, to send it to Cuba .

Cornwell:      So, at most, you would allow someone to fill it out and bring      

                        it in so you could type it?

Tirado:                      Yes.

Cornwell:      If that procedure was employed, allowing someone else ot fill    

                        it out, would you still be required ot check the photograph to     

                        be sure it was accurate?

Tirado:                      Yes.

Cornwell:      Would you still require the person to sign it in your            

                        presence?

Tirado:                      Yes.

Cornwell:      Just so we can keep out documents straight, let's just mark       

                        now on the back a photograph and we'll ask you some questions        

                        about it.  We'll mark it as Exhibit Number 2.  This is a         

                        photograph of what would appear to be a visa application.         

                        Does it appear to be basically the type of visa application            

                        that we have been speaking about?

Tirado:                      Yes.  The numbers, I think they're mine.

Cornwell:      The numbers in the upper right-hand corner which are

                        hand-written?

Tirado:                      I think so.

 

 

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Cornwell:      Those appear to you to be in your handwriting.

Tirado:                      Yeah, because when I file I write in the number, the following     

                        number?

Cornwell:      Okay.  And on the very bottom of the application, where it

                        says "para uso de la mision" that means it's filled in by

                        someone associated with the Cuban Government.  Is that           

                        correct.  Or the Consulate?

Tirado:                      Yes.

Cornwell:      Who, according to the usual procedure, filled out that       

                        portion.

Tirado:                      Me.

Cornwell:      The other day when we talked to you informally, you read           

                        through the words in that section.  Is that correct?

Tirado:                      Yes.  I remember.

Cornwell:      And your memory is that you in fact typed that section on this   

                        application.

Tirado:                      Yes.  I used to do this with all the applications.

Cornwell:      And under that, there is a signature.

Tirado:                      Yes.

Cornwell:      Are you able to tell whose signature that is?

Tirado:                      No, I was thinking it was Mirabal, but no--I couldn't sign any       

                        papers.

Cornwell:      Okay.  So it was definitely not your signature?

Tirado:                      No.

Cornwell:      Do you know whether, according to normal procedure,

 

 

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                        any particular person routinely placed his name at that

                        location?

Tirado:                      No, only the Consulate.  People in the Consulate.

Cornwell:      What would be the purpose of a signature in the lower                 

                        right-hand corner?

Tirado:                      I don't know, perhaps to check that it was right as it was

                        written.

Cornwell:      Did you ever see the Consulate or any other employee

                        routinely sign the applications at the location?

Tirado:                      I don't remember, but what I used to do was put the originals     

                        in one packet and that was with a letter to the Minister, de           

                        Relaciones exterister (spanish).  How do you say that?  (Lopez

                        - Minister of Foreign Relations), and I used to give to the  

                        Consul so he sign the papers and send it to Cuba .

Cornwell:      Okay.   One copy stayed in the Consulate and one was mailed to

                        Cuba , to the Minister of Foreign Relations.

Tirado:                      Yes.

Cornwell:      Is it possible then that the signature in the lower right-hand        

                        corner is someone in Cuba ?

Tirado:                      Perhaps that one that get it.

Cornwell:      That receives it in cuba .  All right, the stamp,

 

 

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                        which appears slightly over the name, the handwritten name,    

                        Lee H. Oswald, when did that get laced on the application if        

                        you know?

Tirado:                      Perhaps in the moment that he sign?

Cornwell:      Was that part of the normal procedure?  Did you have a stamp

                        as you recall to do that?

Tirado:                      Yes.

Cornwell:      And was that a means of authenticating the signature, that you

                        would stamp on top of it like that?

Tirado:                      I think so.  Because let me see.

                        This was signed by Cuba , I think because this was October 10.             

                        This was the answer, perhaps.

Cornwell:      So there's a date you just pointed to, around the middle of          

                        the application reading 10-Oct. 1963 and you are assuming, I     

                        take it, that that was the date placed on the document in  

                        Cuba ?

Tirado:                      Perhaps but I don't know.

                        I don't know the date of when we send the application.

Cornwell:      Or it was placed on there when you mailed it?

Tirado:                      Yes.

Cornwell:      Do you know which?

Tirado:                      I don't know.

Cornwell:      You don't remember which?  Could it have been the date upon

                        which the application was received

 

 

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                        in the Consulate here in mexico City ?

Tirado:                      In return.

cornwell:       In return?  Back from cuba ?      

                        Is that what you mean?

Tirado:                      Perhaps.  I don't know that.

Cornwell:      Could it have been the date you received it from Oswald?

Tirado:                      No, because it was the same date.

Cornwell:      Okay.  The only date on here of receipt from Oswald was the     

                        one near the top, the second line, which reads:  27 Sep. 1963.

Tirado:                      Yes.

Cornwell:      So I guess the best we can do is say that you don't have a          

                        distinct recollection of how the 10th of October date would         

                        have gotten placed on here.  Correct?

Tirado:                      Yeah.

Cornwell:      How long normally would it have taken between the receipt of

                        an application and the date that it would have been mailed to     

                        Cuba ?

Tirado:                      Well, it depends on the flight.  We had, I don't remember in          

                        that time, if we were three flights from Cuba to Mexico and

                        from Mexico to Cuba and it depends on the work that we have to

                        do, if we have a lot of work we wouldn't have sent it          

                        immediately or,--valise diplomatica, How do you say it?

Cornwell:      Diplomatic pouch.

 

 

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Cornwell:      Would there have been some usual amount of time?

                        How much could it vary?

Tirado:                      The flights were Monday, Wednesday and Friday, I think.  And

                        uh, well, we send a bunch if, I think, I don't know, when what     

                        day in the week was the 27th?  Perhaps if it was Wednesday, we

                        would send next Friday, or next Monday.  Or...

Cornwell:      I have another photograph of just the upper left-hand corner     

                        of the same document, which we'll mark as Exhibit 3 on the       

                        back, and ask you if, to the best of your recollection, that            

                        is a photograph of the man whom you saw on or about the 27th

                        of September?

Tirado:                      Yes.

Cornwell:      I don't understand.  A moment ago, did you say that there was

                        a normal time of the week that mailings to Cuba occurred?

Tirado:                      Would you please repeat the question?

Cornwell:      Was there a usual day, did the mailings to Cuba usually occur   

                        on one given day of the week?

Tirado:                      Yes, I don't remember exactly, but I think it was on Friday,

                        perhaps, that we make, we send applications.  Yeah, it was one            

                        day to send all the applications.

Cornwell:      All right.  So, if we were to tel you the 27th of

 

 

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Cornwell:      What happened?

Tirado:                      Somebody took them to the Consulate.

cornwell:       Okay.  you said the main gate.  Was  that the area that, on

                        Exhibit one, you marked as beign the door to your office, or

                        some other area?

Tirado:                      He was closed.  In the afternoon he was closed.  But perhaps

                        he came...

Cornwell:      The door on Area One was locked up.  Okay?

Tirado:                      Yes.  And then he was open.

Cornwell:      Over near Number Seven, is that correct?

                        Where they let the cars in?

Tirado:                      Yes.

Cornwell:      There was a door there too?

Tirado:                      Yes.  It was the garage and another door.

Cornwell:      And the doorman from that area brought him to your office?

Tirado:                      Yes.

Cornwell:      What occurred on that occasion?

Tirado:                      What?

Cornwell:      What happened on that occasion.

Tirado:                      Well, he came in and he said that he already have his Russian   

                        Visa and uh, he want to get his Cuban visa.  And I said that

                        that was not possible because he has to be first sent to Cuba    

                        and then

 

 

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Cornwell:      What happened?

Tirado:                      Somebody took them to the Consulate.

Cornwell:      Okay.  You said the main gate.  Was that the area

                        that, on Exhibit one, you marked as being the

                        door to your office, or some other area?

Tirado:                      He was closed.  In the afternoon he was closed.  But perhaps

                        he came...

Cornwell:      The door on Area One was locked up.  Okay?

Tirado:                      Yes.  And then he was open.

Cornwell:      Over near Number Seven, is that correct?

                        Where they let the cars in?

Tirado:                      Yes.

Cornwell:      There was a door there too?

Tirado:                      Yes.  It was the garage and another door.

Cornwell:      And the doorman from that area brought him ot your office?

Tirado:                      Yes.

Cornwell:      What occurred on that occasion?

Tirado:                      What?

Cornwell:      What happened on that occasion?

Tirado:                      Well, he came in and he said that he already have his Russian   

                        visa and uh, he want to get his Cuban visa. And I said that

                        that was not possible because he has to be first sent to Cuba    

                        and then

 

 

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                        wait for the answer, no, it was necessary that he has to have

                        first a Socialist visa, the Russian visa.  And, uh,...

Cornwell:      Did he show you his passport with a visa in it?  From the

                        Russian Embassy.

Tirado:                      No, No.  I don't remember exactly but what I remember is he

                        says that he already has his Russian visa and I said I don't         

                        see it and well, I don't remember exactly what we discussed in  

                        that moment.  But, he was very stubborn.  So, I say, well, I'm      

                        going to call to the Russian Consul, so I called the russian         

                        Consul and I said hey, listen, here's a man that, he say that         

                        he already got his Russian visa.  And he said, yes, I remember  

                        it.  He came to us for visa but uh, the answer will be in      

                        three or four months,  that was the usual time.

Cornwell:      So as you recall, then, the person t the Russian Embassy said

                        in effect, no, he doesn't have it yet, he's only applied         

                        for it.  Is that right?

Tirado:                      Yes.

Cornwell:      Okay.  Go ahead.

Tirado:                      And uh, and I told him what the Russian Consulate says and     

                        then, he was angry.  He age angry.  And he insisted that he

                        was a friend of the Cuban

 

 

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                        Revolution, that he has already been in jail for

                        the Cuban Revolution, that uh, oh, that he

                        wanted that visa and that he couldn't wait for

                        so long time because uh, his Mexican visa was

                        finished in three days.  So he was insistent and uh,

                        I didn't have time and well, I couldn't make him

                        understand that.  So, I went to the Consul's

                        office and I explained to him, and would you please

                        come and talk with him?  Axcue came, Misrabel I

                        think he didn't speak English, so Azcue came and

                        told him those things, all the requirements that he

                        needs to fly to Cuba , and he was really angry.  He

                        was red and he was almost crying and uh, he was

                        insisting and insisting so Azcue told him to go away

                        because if he didn't go away at that moment he was

                        going to kick him, or something like that.  So,

                        Azcue went to the door, he opened the door and

                        told Oswald to go away.

Cornwell:      Okay.  So he went to the door which was in the

                        area we marked 'one,' which was at the Consulate

                        Office?

Tirado:                      Yes...Remember, I was feeling pity for him

                        because he looked desperate.

Cornwell:      He looked desperate?

Tirado:                      Yes.

 

 

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Cornwell:      So, you felt kind of sorry for him?

Tirado:                      Yes.

Cornwell:      At any time during these three contacts, did he

                        indicate to you that he could speak or understand

                        Spanish?

Tirado:                      No.

Cornwell:      During this period was your normal work week, did

                        it include Saturdays?

Tirado                        Yes.

Cornwell       Is it possible that, in addition to his visits on

                        Friday, he also came back the following day on

                        Saturday mourning?

Tirado:                      No.

Cornwell:      How can you be sure of that?

Tirado:                      Because, uh, I told you before, that it was easy

                        to remember, because not all the Americans that

                        came there were married with a Russian woman, they

                        have live(d) in Russian and uh, we didn't used to

                        fight with those people because if you, they came

                        for going to Cuba , so apparently they were friends,

                        no?  So we were nice to them with this man we fight,

                        I mean we had a hard discussion so we didn't want

                        to have anything to do with him.

Cornwell:      Okay.  I understand that but I don't understand

                        how that really answers the question.  In other

 

 

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                        words, the question is, what is it about the

                        events that makes you sure that he did not come

                        back on Saturday, and have another  conversation

                        with you?

Tirado:                      Because I remember the fight.  So if he (come)

                        back, I would have remembered.

Cornwell:      Did Azcue work on Saturdays?

Tirado:                      Yes, we used to work in the office but not for

                        the public.

Cornwell:      Was there a guard, was there a guard out here at

                        the corner near number seven on your diagram on

                        Saturdays?

Tirado:                      Excuse me?

Cornwell:      Was there a doorman out near the area that you

                        marked as number seven, on the diagram?

Tirado:                      Yes, but on Saturday he never let people ...

Cornwell:      Never let people in.

Tirado:                      No.

Cornwell:      Not even if they came up to the doorman and didn't

                        speak Spanish?  And were very insistent?

Tirado:          No, because they could answer or something.  They

                        could ask me for instance, no ? by the inter-phone.

Cornwell:      They could do that on a Friday, though.

 

 

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Tirado:                      But what I remember is that Oswald has my tele-

                        phone number and my name and perhaps he show to

                        the doorman  (Spanish).

Cornwell:      When did you give him the telephone number and

                        name?

Tirado:                      In the second visit, perhaps.

Cornwell:      Okay.

Tirado:                      I used to do that to all the  people, so they don't

                        have to come and to bother me.  So I used to give

                        the telephone number and my name and say "give me

                        a call next week to see if your visa arrived."

Cornwell:      Well.  Are you saying that based on your memory

                        the guard was allowed to bring people in during the

                        five till eight o'clock at night uh, sessions

                        during the week but not on Saturdays?

Tirado:                      No.

Cornwell:      Is  that correct?

Tirado:                      Yes.

Cornwell:      Do you have a distinct recollection with respect

                        to telephone calls to the Russian Consulate, was

                        it just one call or was it more than one call?

Tirado:                      Only one.

Cornwell:      Just one.

                        The ... I believe I asked you this, but just to

                        be sure, although the application was typed with

 

 

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                        a carbon to make two copies with one typing,

                        did he have to sign both independently?  Or did

                        you allow them to use a carbon to sign the paper?

Tirado:                      No, no.  It was the original.

Cornwell:      Two original signatures.  All right.

Tirado:                      Yes.

Cornwell:      Was  anything said that you recall at this time

                        which looking back on it indicated the possibility,

                        even on that date, Oswald had on his mind some

                        intension of killing the President of the United

                        States?

Tirado:                      No, I don't think so.

Cornwell:      Let me read something to you, and ask you if it at

                        all refreshes your memory or if hour have a memory

                        of a conversation similar to this?

                        I don't believe I read this to you before, when

                        we talked the other day, or did I?  Did I rea

                        and excerpt from Daniel Schorr's book to you?

Tirado:                      No, you told me.

Cornwell:      Okay.  I'll read it to you then at this time.

                        It's an excerpt from a book called Clearing the

                        Air, written by Daniel Schorr, published in the

                        United States in 1977.  And page 177 reads as

                        follows:

 

                                                "In and interview in July 1967 with a

                                    British journalist, Comer Clark, Castro

 

 

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                                    (meaning Fidel Castro) said that Oswald

                                    had come to the Cuban Consulate twice,

                                    each time for about fifteen minutes.  The

                                    first time, I was told, he wanted to work

                                    for us.  He was asked to explain but he

                                    wouldn't, he wouldn't go into details.  The

                                    second time he said he wanted to free Cuba

                                    from American imperialism.  Then he said

                                    something like 'Someone ought to shoot

                                    that President Kennedy.'  Then Oswald said,

                                    and this is exactly how is was reported to

                                    me, maybe I'll try to do it."

 

                        Do you recall any conversation like that in

                        either what was said to you by Oswald or that

                        was said by Oswald to Azcue or anyone else that

                        you might have overheard?

Tirado:                      No, I don't remember.

Cornwell:      Did any part of that conversation occur?

Tirado:                      No, because I don't remember that he says he was

                        to go to work in Cuba because he only that he

                        wanted to go in-transit.  That's what I remember.

Cornwell:      What do you think, well, first let me ask you,

                        do you think that conversation could have occurred

                        and you just forgot it?  In other words, is that

                        the kind of conversation which, if it occurred,

                        you would definitely remember it?

Tirado:                      Yes.  Because in the fight with Azcue there was

                        shouting and crying and things like that.  I could

                        miss something, but not, because even if would

                        say so, I mean, I could have heard, no, I mean

 

 

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                        if you kill President you're not going to

                        change the whole system.

                        You see, that's why I give you answer,

                        even Azcue.  I mean that's no the, I don't think

                        so, that he had that conversation with anyone.

                        He was arguing. . .

Cornwell:      Do you remember any part of the conversation

                        indicating that Oswald blaming the United States

                        or President Kennedy for his inability to get

                        to Cuba ?

Tirado:                      I don't remember but that could be possible.

Cornwell:      In other words, if he's frustrated and he comes

                        to the Cuban Consulate, he might feel animosity

                        or anger towards various people.  He might be

                        angry at you, or Azcue, or at the Cuban Govern-

                        ment or at the Russian Government or perhaps the

                        United States Government, depending on how the

                        conversation went.  What do you recall about that?

                        Who was he angry at  when told he couldn't go to

                        Cuba

Tirado:                      He was angry at us.  That's why I called Azcue

                        Because he was not a strong man but anyway, I

                        didn't like to fight with him.  He was very angry

                        and he was blaming me and Azcue because he thought

                        it was in our hands to give the visa immediately,

                        and he couldn't understand that the visa has to

 

 

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                        come from Cuba .

Cornwell:      You mentioned earlier that you had discussed

                        with Azcue on this, as I understood this, during

                        the third visit with Oswald, the suspicion that

                        you had about the documents.  Is that accurate

                        or did I misunderstand?

Tirado:                      No, it was the third time when I told Azcue that

                        there was a man that bother me, that when I told

                        him about. this man, I mean because it was normal, I

                        used to that was my job, to attend people who

                        come in so I didn't have to bother the Consul

                        for every man who came, because there was a lot

                        crazy men from the United States that they wanted

                        to go to Cuba .

Cornwell:      Okay.  So, from what I understand then, when you

                        went in to Azcue to bother him, since you normally

                        didn't do that sort of thing, yo gave him a sort

                        of background resume of your dealings with Oswald.

                        Is that correct?

Tirado:                      Yes.

Cornwell:      And was it at that point that you told him of your

                        suspicion about the documents?

Tirado:          I think so.

Cornwell:      What was his reaction?  Azcue's?

Tirado:                      He was worrying.  When he went to my office.

 

 

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                        he was very tranquil, hw was very polite, hw

                        was explaining things, very polite.  And uh,

                        he was starting to get angry when he saw that he

                        was a stubborn man, that he didn't want to under-

                        stand, and he said uh, I remember now, he said

                        you're not a friend of the Cuban Revolution, be-

                        cause if you are a friend, you have to understand

                        that we have to take care, to be very careful

                        with the people that are going to Cuba , and if

                        you don't understand this, you are not friend of

                        the Cuban Revolution.  And he was shouting and,

                        I don't remember how long was this conversation,

                        but uh, they got really angry, both.

Leap:             May I call you Silvia?

Tirado:                      Yes.

Leap:             At any time during you conversation with the

                        Consul, did you discuss the possibility that

                        Oswald was a penetration agent?  Intelligence

                        agent for a foreign power?  Did you discuss that

                        possibility?

Tirado:                      No.  I don't think so because we didn't have

                        time.  Because this man was in my office and

                        I was in Azcue's office so I couldn't leave him

                        many times alone.

Leap:             Did you ever have conversations with Ascue out-

                        side of Oswald's presence relative to the issue?

 

 

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Tirado:                      Repeat the question please.

Lopez:                       Did you ever have a conversation with Azcue when Oswald was          

                        not in the office about the possibility that he was an

                        intelligence agent for some country?

Tirado:                      No, no.  I don't think so.  We only thought that he was a

                        crazy man, an adventurer, or something like that.

Leap:             Did it ever enter your mind that that he was a penetration

                        agent?

Tirado:                      Perhaps.  Perhaps, because it happened, it happened sometimes        

                        that somebody came and say this is a policeman or something

                        like that.

Leap:             That's all the questions that I have.

Tirado:                      The only thing that I can say, it was that it was strange,    

                        traveling with all of his documents just to prove one thing.

Lopez:                       Do you think now, looking back on what happened then, that he          

                        may have been an intellegence agent?

Tirado:                      Perhaps.

Cornwell:      Did anything else ever come to your attention?  That caused     

                        that suspicion?  Other than just his presentation of the    

                        documentation?  Anything else ever happen?

Tirado:                      With him?  No, no.  The only thing that was strange is that if       

                        you belong to the Communist Party,

 

 

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                        any party.  Your French, but French could get Cuban visa but   

                        Mexico, for instance, if you're Mexican and you're a member of

                        the party, of the Communist Party, you don't have to go and      

                        ask for application visa because the party writes to the Cuban  

                        Communist  Party, and they arrange everything.  That was the  

                        strange thing. There's no need.  At first, he said that he was       

                        a Communist.  That was strange.  Because it would be really     

                        easy for him to get the visa through the Communist Party.

Cornwell:      At any point in the conversations that you have told us about,   

                        did Oswald say anything indicating that he really wanted to        

                        stay in Cuba ?

Tirado:                      No.  He just wanted to go and visit and saw what was the

                        Revolution.

Cornwell:      Okay.  That's sort of what I meant.  In other words, he did            

                        indicate that he didn't just want to pass through, that he

                        wanted to spend some time there.  Is that correct?

Tirado:                      Yes.

Cornwell:      What do you recall about that part of the conversations?

Tirado:                      I told him that he get to Cuba , for instance, at two o'clock,           

                        and there was a plane going to

 

 

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                        Russia at five o'clock, he has to stay in the airport, in the

                        Cuban airport.  That he couldn't go out.

Cornwell:      Why didn't you tell him that?

Tirado:                      Because he was saying that he wanted to go to Cuba to visit     

                        and to see what the revolution had made.

Cornwell:      Did you ever see him again, after the argument with Azcue?

Tirado:                      No.

Cornwell:      Did you ever talk to him again?

Tirado:                      No.

Cornwell:      Not in person nor by telephone.

Tirado:                      No, he never call  He could have called when I wasn't there,       

                        but I used to get the message, if somebody answer, I used to

                        get a message.

Cornwell:      Did anyone else overhear any of the conversations you have    

                        described?  Other than the one time in which Azcue was

                        involved?

Tirado:                      Yes.  Could be that people from the Commercial Office, could

                        be Mirabal.

Cornwell:      Was there anyone else physically persent in the Consulate's     

                        office during those conversations as you can recall?

 

 

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Tirado:                      I can't remember.  The only thing that I remember is that it

                        was only Mirabal.

Cornwell:      And did Mirabal come out in the reception area during the

                        conversations as you recall?

Tirado:                      No, I think he stay in his office.

Cornwell:      But he could have overheard it at the time.

Tirado:                      Yes, everybody who was passing through, even in the streets,

                        they were shouting, really?

Cornwell:      Were the windows up as I guess they might have been at that   

                        time of year?

Tirado:                      (Didn't understand)

Cornwell:      The windows would have been up?  The windows to the Consulate

                        Office would have been open?

Tirado:                      What?  I..

Cornwell:      In other words, you're saying people on the street might have   

                        overheard it?

Tirado:                      Yes, yes.  If you were here and there was always a police            

                        here, they could have heard the shouting, the crying.  (Lots        

                        of background, unintelligible.)

 

 

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KENNEDY

 

SELECT COMMITTEE ON ASSASSINATIONS

 

TAPE 2

 

Name:  Silvia Tirado (Duran)                               Date:  June 5, 1978  Time:

Address:                                                                               Place:

 

Interview:

Cornwell:      You told us previously when we discussed informally with you

                        that you were sympathetic towards the Cuban Revolution during         

                        the early 1960's--

Tirado:                      Yes.

Cornwell       Did you ever overhear any conversation either in the Consulate

                        or among any of the people you may have associated with         

                        concerning the possibility of killing the President?

Tirado:                      No, because I think the people I used to know during that           

                        time, they think like me, and I think the death of a man

                        doesn't make anything good, I mean, you have to change the    

                        structures, I mean, it's just like a building, to?  The

                        President is like, I mean, for instance, a roof--not the top,

                        but if you take the top, the building still stands.  You have           

                        to destroy the whole building, not one man.  If you kill the           

                        man, you make a hero.  So, is no good.

Cornwell:      What were your own feelings towards President Kennedy?

 

Interviewer Signature

Typed Signature  Gary Cornwell

                                                                                                Date transcribed  6-26-78

                                                                                                                            By: br   Form #4A

 

 

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Tirado:                      Well, I like him.  I mean, he was very  nice, he was very

                        intelligent.  And I think of the relations with Mexico , as I

                        remember now, they were very good in the commercial area, the

                        cultural area.  He came ot Mexico and he was very acclamation.            

                        They loved him.  They liked him very much.

Cornwell:      And, what you're saying is, you're describing what you

                        understood to be the basic reaction of the Mexican people?  Is

                        that correct?

Tirado:                      Yes.

Cornwell:      Was that feeling the same even among the part of the Mexican

                        people who were sympathetic towards the Cuban Revolution?

Tirado:                      Uh, translate, please, Ed.  I want to be sure of the question.

Lopez:                       Would you repeat the question, please?

Cornwell:      Was the feeling that you just described as being that of the        

                        Mexican people?

Lopez:                       (Translated question.)

Tirado:                      In general.

Cornwell:      The same with respect to that part of the Mexican people like     

                        yourself who were sympathetic to the Cuban Revolution?

Lopez:                       (Translated.)

Tirado:                      Well, yes, more or less.  because I mean, if you're uh, how

                        can I explain this, uh, if you're a President

 

 

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                        of a country that is against uh, against Latin America ,       

                        undeveloped countries, you don't love them, of course, but you

                        may see that is different, that he has been a good President,

                        that he was, I think he was ingenious with his Alliance for

                        Progress, that he tried to have more friends, not like Dulles

                        who said we don't have friends, we have interests, things like   

                        that.  Do you know that phrase?

Cornwell:      One more time.

Lopez:                       (Speaks to Tirado in Spanish.)  Dulles.

Tirado:                      He said once the United States has no friends, they have

                        interests.  (Speaks in Spanish.)  And Kennedy tried to destroy   

                        that phrase, saying we want to have friends.  And he was            

                        changing the politics of Latin America , Kennedy.