SYLVIA ODIO  Volume XI

 

TESTIMONY OF SYLVIA ODIO

 

          The testimony of Sylvia Odio was taken at 9 a.m., on July 22, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building , Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas , Tex. , by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

 

          Mr. LIEBELER. Would you please rise and take the oath? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

          Mrs. ODIO. Yes; I do.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Please sit down. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am an attorney on the staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination

 

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of President Kennedy. I have been authorized to take your testimony by the Commission, pursuant to authority granted to the Commission by Executive Order 11130 dated November 29, 1963, and joint resolution of Congress No. 137.

          Under the rules of the Commission, you are entitled to have an attorney present, if you wish one. You are also entitled to 3 days' notice of the hearing, and you are not required to answer any question that you think might incriminate you or might violate some other privilege you may have. I think the Secret Service did call you, or Martha Joe Stroud, here in the U.S. attorney's office, called you and gave you notice.

          Mrs. ODIO. Yes.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Do you wish to have an attorney present?

          Mrs. ODIO. No; I don't think so.

          Mr. LIEBELER. We want to ask you some questions about the possibility that you saw Lee Harvey Oswald.

          Mrs. ODIO. Before you start, let me give you a letter of my father's which he wrote me from prison. You can have it. It was very funny, because at the time he wrote it, the FBI incident happened a week later. I told my father this man had been in my house and he introduced himself as your friend; and he wrote me back in December telling me that such people were not his friends, and he said not to receive anybody in my house, and not any of them were his friends, and he didn't know those people. At the time I did give the names of one or two, and he wrote back, "I actually don't know who they are."

          Mr. LIEBELER. Let's come to this during the course of the questioning, but I am glad you brought it up. I do want to get to it, because it may help us determine who these people were.

          Mrs. ODIO. Yes.

          Mr. LIEBELER. First of all, would you tell us where you were born?

          Mrs. ODIO. In Havana , Cuba .

          Mr. LIEBELER. Approximately when?

          Mrs. ODIO. 1937.

          Mr. LIEBELER. How long did you live in Cuba ?

          Mrs. ODIO. Until, well, I studied in the United States , so I mean--you mean my whole life until--it was 1960.

           Mr. LIEBELER. 1960?

          Mrs. ODIO. Yes.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Then you left Cuba and came to the United States , is that correct?

          Mrs. ODIO. Yes.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you come to in the United States ?

          Mrs. ODIO. We first came to Miami , and we stayed there just a few days and left for Ponce , Puerto Rico , and we stayed there 2 years.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Then from Ponce , did you come to Dallas ?

          Mrs. ODIO. From Ponce , I came straight to Dallas last year, March of last year.

          Mr. LIEBELER. So that you have been in Dallas since March of 1963, is that correct?

          Mrs. ODIO. That's right.

          Mr. LIEBELER. You indicated that you had gone to school in the United States . Where?

          Mrs. ODIO. Eden Hall Convent of The Sacred Heart, in Philadelphia .

          Mr. LIEBELER. How long did you go to school there?

          Mrs. ODIO. Three years.

          Mr. LIEBELER. That is what, high school?

          Mrs. ODIO. That's right. From 1951 to 1954.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Was that period of 3 years the only time you were in the United States prior to the time that you came to Dallas in March of 1963? The only time in the United States over any extended period of time?

          Mrs. ODIO. Excuse me, when I got married in 1957, I stayed 8 months--9 months in New Orleans .

          Mr. LIEBELER. So that you lived in the United States for 9 months in 1956?

          Mrs. ODIO. That's right.

 

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          Mr. LIEBELER. You had been in Philadelphia for 3 years from 1954 on, is that correct?

          Mrs. ODIO. No; from 1951 to 1954, when I graduated.

          Mr. LIEBELER. And for the period in New Orleans and when you came to the United States finally?

          Mrs. ODIO. In 1960, December 25, 1960.

          Mr. LIEBELER. So after you came in December of 1960, you went to Puerto Rico and lived in. Puerto Rico for 2 years, and you came to Dallas in 1963 and you have been here ever since?

          Mrs. ODIO. That's right.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us briefly what your educational background is, Mrs. Odio?

          Mrs. ODIO. Well, I had grammar school in Cuba . I started high school in Cuba and then I was sent to the Sacred Heart and I applied for college, and went back and studied law in the University of Villanova . I did not finish because my career was interrupted because of Castro, and I didn't finish law.

          Mr. LIEBELER. How much training did you have in law?

          Mrs. ODIO. I had almost 3 years.

          Mr. LIEBELER Of law study in Cuba ?

          Mrs. ODIO. Yes.

          Mr. LIEBELER. My record indicates that on December 18, 1963, you were interviewed by two agents of the FBI, Mr. James P. Hoary and Bardwell D. Odum. Do you remember that?

          Mrs. ODIO. That's correct.

          Mr. LIEBELER It is my understanding that they interviewed you at your place of work, is that correct?

          Mrs. ODIO. Yes.

          Mr. LIEBELER Do you remember approximately what they asked you and what you told them?

          Mrs. ODIO. I think I remember. Not exactly, but I think I can recall the conversation.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Would you give us the content of that conversation, as best you can recall

          Mrs. ODIO. They told me they were coming because of the assassination of President Kennedy, that they had news that I knew or I had known Lee Harvey Oswald. And I told them that I had not known him as Lee Harvey Oswald, but that he was introduced to me as Leon Oswald. And they showed me a picture of Oswald and a picture of Ruby. I did not know Ruby, but I did recall Oswald. They asked me about my activities in JURE. That is the Junta Revolutionary, and it is led by Manolo Ray. I told him that I did belong to this organization because my father and mother had belonged in Cuba , and I had seen him (Ray) in Puerto recently, and that I knew him personally, and that I did belong to JURE. They asked me about the members here in Dallas , and I told him a few names of the Cubans here. They asked me to tell the story about what happened in my house.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Who was it that you had seen in Puerto Rico ?

          Mrs. ODIO. Mr. Ray, I had seen. He was a very close friend of my father and mother. He hid in my house several times in Cuba .

          So they asked me to tell him how I came to know Oswald, and I told them that it was something very brief and I could not recall the time, exact date. I still can't. We more or less have established that it was the end of September. And, of course, my sister had recognized him at the same time I did, but I did not say anything to her. She came very excited one day and said, "That is the man that was in my house." And I said, "Yes; I remember."

          Mr. LIEBELER.  Tell us all the circumstances surrounding the event when Oswald came to your house.

          Mrs. ODIO. Well, I had been having little groups of Cubans coming to my house who have been asking me to help them in JURE. They were going to open a revolutionary paper here in Dallas . And I told them at the time I was very busy with my four children, and I would help, in other things like selling bonus to help buy arms for Cuba . And I said I would help as much as I could.

          Those are my activities before Oswald came. Of course, all the Cubans knew

 

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that I was involved in JURE, but it did not have a lot of sympathy in Dallas and I was criticized because of that.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Because of what now?

          Mrs. ODIO. Because I was sympathetic with Ray and this movement. Ray has always had the propaganda that he is a leftist and that he is Castro without Castro. So at that time I was planning to move over to Oak Cliff because it was much nearer to my work in Irving . So we were all involved in this moving business, and my sister Annie, who at the time was staying with some America friends, had come over that weekend to babysit for me.

          It either was a Thursday or 'a Friday. It must have been either one of those days, in the last days of September. And I was getting dressed to go out to a friend's house, and she was staying to babysit.

          Like I said, the doorbell rang and she went over--she had a housecoat on--she wasn't dressed properly--and came back and said, "Sylvia, there are three men at the door, and one seems to be an American, the other two seem to be Cubans. Do you know them ?" So I put a housecoat on and stood at the door. I never opened my door unless I know who they are, because I have had occasions where Cubans. have introduced themselves as having arrived from Cuba and known my family, and I never know.

          So I went to the door, and he said, "Are you Sarita Odio?" And I said, "I am not. That is my sister studying at the University of Dallas . I am Sylvia." Then he said, "Is she the oldest?" And I said, "No; I am the oldest." And he said, "It is you we are looking for." So he said, "We are members of JURE."

          This at the time struck me funny, because their faces did not seem familiar, and I asked them for their names. One of them said his name was Leopoldo. He said that was his war name. In all this underground, everybody has a war name. This was done for safety in Cuba .  So when everybody came to exile, everyone was known by their war names.

          And the other one did give me his name, but I can't recall. I have been trying to recall. It was something like Angelo. I have never been able to remember, and I couldn't be exact on this name, but the other one I am exact on; I remember perfectly.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Let me ask you this before you go ahead with the story. Which one of the men told you that they were members of JURE and did most of the talking? Was it the American?

          Mrs. ODIO. The American had not said a word yet.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Which one of the Cubans?

          Mrs. ODIO. The American was in the middle. They were leaning against the staircase. There was a tall one. Let me toll you, they both looked very greasy like the kind of low Cubans, not educated at all. And one was on the heavier side and had black hair. I recall one of them had glasses, if I remember. We have been trying to establish, my sister and I, the identity of this man. And one of them, the tall one, was the one called Leopoldo. Mr. LIEBELER. He did most of the talking?

          Mrs. ODIO. He did most of the talking. The other one kept quiet, and the American, we will call him Leon, said just a few little words in Spanish, trying to be cute, but very few, like "Hola," like that in Spanish.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have a chain on the door, or was the door completely opened?

          Mrs. ODIO. I had a chain.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Was the chain fastened?

          Mrs. ODIO. No; I unfastened it after a little while when they told me they were members of  JURE, and were trying to let me have them come into the house. When I said no, one of them said, "We are very good friends of your father." This struck me, because I didn't think my father could have such kind of friends, unless he knew them from anti-Castro activities. He gave me so many details about where they saw my father and what activities he was in. I mean, they gave me almost incredible details about things that somebody who knows him really would or that somebody informed well knows. And after a little while, after they mentioned my father, they started talking about the American.

          He said, "You are working in the underground." And I said, "No, I am sorry

 

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to say I am not working in the underground." And he said, "We wanted you to meet this American. His name is Leon Oswald." He repeated it twice. Then my sister Annie by that time was standing near the door. She had come to see what was going on. And they introduced him as an American who was very much interested in the Cuban cause. And let me see, if I recall exactly what they said about him. I don't recall at the time I was at the door things about him.

          I recall a telephone call that I had the next day from the so-called Leopoldo, so I cannot remember the conversation at the door about this American.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Did your sister hear this man introduced as Leon Oswald?

          Mrs. ODIO. She says she doesn't recall. She could not say that it is true. I mean, even though she said she thought I had mentioned the name very clearly, and I had mentioned the names of the three men.

          Mr. LIEBELER. But she didn't remember it?

          Mrs. ODIO. No; she said I mentioned it, because I made a comment. This I don't recall. I said, "I am going to see Antonio Alentado," which is one of the leaders of the JURE here in Dallas . And I think I just casually said, "I am going to mention these names to him to see if he knows any of them." But I forgot about them.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Did your sister see the men?

          Mrs. ODIO. She saw the three of them.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Have you discussed this with her since that time?

          Mrs. ODIO. I just had to discuss it because it was bothering me. I just had to know.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Did she think it was Oswald?

          Mrs. ODIO. Well, her reaction to it when Oswald came on television, she almost passed out on me, just like I did the day at work when I learned about the assassination of the President. Her reaction was so obvious that it was him, I mean. And my reaction, we remember Oswald the day he came to my house because he had not shaved and he had a kind of a very, I don't know how to express it, but some little hairs like if you haven't shaved, but it is not a thick moustache, but some kind of shadow. That is something I noticed. And he was wearing--the other ones were wearing white dirty shirts, but he was wearing a long sleeved shirt.

          Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of shirt was it, a white shirt?

          Mrs. ODIO. No; it was either green or blue, and he had it rolled up to here.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Almost to his elbows?

          Mrs. ODIO. No; less than that, just the ends of the sleeves.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Did he have a tie?

          Mrs. ODIO. No tie.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Was it a sport shirt, or working shirt?

          Mrs. ODIO. He had it open. I don't know if he had a collar or not, but it was open. And the other one had a white undershirt. One of them was very hairy. Where was I? I just want to remember everything.

          Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned when your sister saw Oswald's picture on television that she almost passed out. Did she recognize him, do you know, as the man that had been in the apartment?

          Mrs. ODIO. She said, "Sylvia, you know that man?" And I said, "Yes," and she said, "I know him." "He was the one that came to our door, and it couldn't be so, could it?"

          That was our first interview. We were very much concerned after that. We were concerned and very scared, because I mean, it was such a shock.

          This man, the other one, the second Cuban, took out a letter written in Spanish, and the content was something like we represent the revolutionary counsel, and we are making a big movement to buy arms for Cuba and to help overthrow the dictator Castro, and we want you to translate this letter and write it in English and send a whole lot of them to different industries to see if we can get some results.

          This same petition had been asked of me by Alentado who was one of the leaders of JURE, here in Dallas . He had made this petition to me, "Sylvia, let's write letters to different industries to see if we can raise. some money." I had told him too, I was very busy. So I asked and I said, "Are you sent by Alentado? Is this a petition?"

 

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          Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned this Alentado who was one of the JURE representatives here in Dallas . Is that his full name?

          Mrs. ODIO. His name is Antonio.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know a man by the name of  George Rodriguez  Alvareda?

          Mrs. ODIO Yes.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Who is he?

          Mrs. ODIO. He is another member of JURE. And at the time, a little after that, after December. I was more in contact with him, and I will tell you why later. They are all members of JURE here in Dallas , working hard.

          And so I asked him if they were sent by him, and he said, "No". And I said, "Do you know Eugeino?" This is the war name for_ _  _ _.That is his war name and everybody underground knows him as Eugenio.  So I didn't mention his real name. He didn't know.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Who did you ask this?

          Mrs. ODIO.  I asked these men when they came to the door--I asked if they had been sent by Alentado, became I explained to them that he had already asked me to do the letters and he said no.  And I said, "Were you sent by Eugenio," and he said no. And I said, "Were you sent by Ray," and he said no. And I said, "Well, is this on your own?"

          And he said, "We have just come from New Orleans and we have been trying to get this organized, this movement organized down there, and this is on on our own, but we think we could do some kind of work." This was all talked very fast, not as slow as I am saying it now. You know how fast Cubans talk.  And he put the letter back in his pocket when I said no. And then I think I asked something to the American, trying to be nice, "Have you ever been to Cuba ?"  And he said, "No, I have never been to Cuba ."

          And I said, "Are you interested in our movement?" And he said, "Yes."

          This I had not remembered until lately. I had not spoken much to him and I said, "If you will excuse me, I have to leave," and I repeated, "I am going to write to my father and tell him you have come to visit me."

          And he said, "Is he still in the Isle of Pines ?" And I think that was the extent of the conversation. They left, and I saw them through the window leaving in a car.  I can't recall the car. I have been trying to.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know which one of the men was driving?

          Mrs. ODIO. The tall one, Leopoldo.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Leopoldo?

          Mrs. ODIO. Yes; oh, excuse me, I forgot something very important. They kept mentioning that they had come to visit me at such a time of night, it was almost 9 o'clock, because they were leaving for a trip. And two or three times they said the same thing.

          They said, "We may stay until tomorrow, or we might leave tomorrow night, but please excuse us for the hour." And he mentioned two or three times they were leaving for a trip. I didn't ask where, and I had the feeling they were leaving for Puerto Rico or Miami .

          Mr. LIEBELER. But they did not indicate where they were going?

          Mrs. ODIO. The next day Leopoldo called me. I had gotten home from work, so I imagine it must have been Friday. And they had come on Thursday. I have been trying to establish that. He was trying to get fresh with me that night. He was trying to be too nice, telling me that I was pretty, and he started like that. That is the way he started the conversation. Then he said, "What do you think of the American?" And I said, "I didn't think anything."

          And he said, "You know our idea is to introduce him to the underground in Cuba , because he is great, he is kind of nuts." This was more or less--I can't repeat the exact words, because he was kind of nuts. He told us we don't have any guts, you Cubans, because President Kennedy should have been assassinated filter the Bay of Pigs, and some Cubans should have done that, because he was the one that was holding the freedom of Cuba actually. And I started getting a little upset with the conversation.

          And he said, "It is so easy to do it." He has told us. And he (Leopoldo) used two or three bad words, and I wouldn't repeat it in Spanish. And he repeated again they were leaving for a trip and they would like very much to see

 

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me on their return to Dallas . Then he mentioned something more about Oswald. They called him Leon. He never mentioned the name Oswald.

          Mr. LIEBELER. He never mentioned the name of Oswald on the telephone?

          Mrs. ODIO. He never mentioned his last name. He always referred to the American or Leon.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Did he mention his last name the night before?

          Mrs. ODIO. Before they left I asked their names again, and he mentioned their names again.

          Mr. LIEBELER. But he did not mention Oswald's name except as Leon ?

          Mrs. ODIO. On the telephone conversation he referred to him as Leon or American. He said he had been a Marine and he was so interested in helping the Cubans, and he was terrific. That is the words he more or less used, in Spanish, that he was terrific. And I don't remember what else he said, or something that he was coming back or something, and he would see me. It's been a long time and I don't remember too well, that is more or less what he said.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have an opinion at that time as to why Leopoldo called you back? What was his purpose in calling you back?

          Mrs. ODIO. At first, I thought he was just trying to get fresh with me. The second time, it never occurred to me until I went to my psychiatrist.

          I used to go to see Dr. Einspruch in the Southwestern Medical School , and I used to tell him all the events that happened to me during the week. And he relates that I mentioned to him the fact that these men had been at my door, and the fact that these Cubans were trying to get in the underground, and thought I was a good contact for it, they were simply trying to introduce him. Anyhow, I did not know for what purpose.

          My father and mother are prisoners, and you never know if they can blackmail you or they are going to get them out of there, if you give them a certain amount of money. You never know what to expect. I expect anything. Later on I did establish opinions, because you can't help but establish opinions.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Did you establish that opinion after the assassination or before the assassination?

          Mrs. ODIO. This first opinion that I mentioned to my psychiatrist, I did not give it a second thought. I forgot to tell Alentado about it; except 3 days later I wrote to my father after they came, and mentioned the fact that the two men had called themselves friends of his. And later in December, because the letter takes a long time to get here, he writes me back, "I do not know any of these men. Do not get involved with any of them."

          Mr. LIEBELER. You have already given us a copy of the letter that you received from your father in which he told you that these people were not his friends, and told you not to get involved with them?

          Mrs. ODIO. That's right.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell your father the names of these men when you wrote to him?

          Mrs. ODIO. Yes.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Your father did not, however, mention their names in his letter, did he?

          Mrs. ODIO. He mentioned their war names, because this was the only thing I knew. I probably put an Americano came too, two Cubans with an American, and I gave the names of the Cubans.

          Mr. LIEBELER. The copy of the letter that you gave to me this morning, we will mark as Odio Exhibit No. 1.

          Mrs. ODIO. He mentioned in the second paragraph, "You are very alone there in. Dallas . You don't have anybody, so please do not open your door to anybody that calls themselves my friends."

          Mr. LIEBELER. I have initialed the letter and I would like to have you put your initials under my initials for the purpose of identifying the exhibit.

          Mrs. ODIO. Yes, okay.

          Mr. LIEBELER. The letter is in Spanish, and you have underlined certain parts of it about three-quarters of the way down, in Spanish. Would you read that translation to us?

          Mrs. ODIO. "Please tell me again who it is that calls himself my friend. Be careful. I do not have any friends that have been near me lately, not even in

 

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Dallas .  So do not establish any friendships until you give me their full names again."

          Mr. LIEBELER. Does he say their "full names" in there?

          Mrs. ODIO. Their full names again, which means I had given their war names.

          Mr. LIEBELER. So you must have given the name Leopold?

          Mrs. ODIO. He says, "You are very alone with no man to protect you, and you can be easily fooled." That is more or less what he says.  We are 10 brothers and sisters, a big family, and this has been very sad for both of them.

          I have little brothers in Dallas in an orphanage.  We have been, were a very united family, and he is always worried about us being alone after I divorced.

He is still more worried, and he was always thinking that somebody could come in my door. He also had a thought that somebody could come by demanding money or something like that.  You can probably have somebody who knows Spanish do a better translation.

          Mr. LIEBELER. This letter is dated December 25, 1963, is that correct?

          Mrs. ODIO. That's right.

          Mr. LIEBELER. And it is dated Nueva Gerona. Where is that?

          Mrs. ODIO. The capital of Isle of Pines .

          Mr. LIEBELER. Your father is a prisoner there?

          Mr. LIEBELER. Are the prisoners permitted to write letters back and forth?

          Mrs. ODIO. One letter a month, on one side.

          Mr. LIEBELER.  I would presume that the letters are read by Castro's men?

          Mrs. ODIO. They are all read. That is why I did not given him a lot of details. I managed to write very small so they would have a time reading it, like he does.  You can see how perfectly he writes a letter.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Now, let me ask you how you managed to establish that these men come in late September. You previously stated that you couldn't remember the date exactly, but you had managed to establish it as being in late September.  Would you tell me the procedure that you went through to establish that date in your mind?

          Mrs. ODIO. I told you my sister Annie was staying with some American friends. She did not live with me. She had gone to live with the Madlock's. And I called her many times to come and babysit for me during certain weekends, and she would come either on a Thursday or Friday, depending on when I called her.

          I told her that day that I was going out, but I wanted 'her to start packing for me because we were moving over to Oak Cliff. It must have been the last days of September, because we had already packages in the living room. We had already started to pack to go, and we had to move by the first of October since my rent was due that day, you see.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you did move?

          Mrs. ODIO. We did move the first of October to Oak Cliff.

          Mr. LIEBELER. What was the address of the apartment in which you lived before you moved to Oak Cliff? 

          Mrs. ODIO. Over in, it was, I am almost sure of the number-- 1024 Magellan  Circle . It is the Crestwood Apartments. I am not sure of the number; I think it is.                              Mr. LIEBELER. In any event, you were living at the Crestwood Apartments at the time these men came to your apartment?

          Mrs. ODIO. That's right. The Crestwood Apartments are full of Cubans.

          Mr. LIEBELER. You left the Crestwood Apartments as of the first of October  and moved to Oak Cliff?

          Mrs. ODIO. That's right exactly.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you are absolutely sure that these men came to your apartment before the first of October?

          Mrs. ODIO. Before the first of October.

          Mr. LIEBELER. It would have been sometime toward the end of September,  because you recall that you had already started to pack to move from the Crestwood Apartments to Oak Cliff?

          Mrs. ODIO. The packages were in the living room, and Annie was helping me.

 

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She was actually taking things out of the closet when they came. It took a long time to be sure of that, but I am certain of that.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Have you discussed this with your sister, Annie?

          Mrs. ODIO. We had to, yes, sir; and she was convinced it was in late September. Because she had not come the previous week. For 2 weeks, she had not come, but had come the last week to help me pack and move.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have a lease on your apartment, at the Crestwood Apartments?

          Mrs. ODIO. No; they don't take you by lease. You give a deposit, and you lose it if you move before 6 months.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Had you lived at the Crestwood Apartments 6 months?

          Mrs. ODIO. No. I have told you I moved several times, and it is because of reasons of my work, and because my children at the time were in Puerto Rico, I and I went down to get them in Puerto Rico June 29th.

          That was exactly the day that I saw Ray again. We had been trying to establish a contact in Dallas with Mr. Johnny Martin, who is from Uruguay . He is from there, and he had heard that I was involved in this movement. And he said that he had a lot of contacts in Latin America to buy arms, particularly in Brazil, and that if he were in contact with one of our chief leaders of the underground, he would be able to sell him second-hand arms that we could use in our revolution.

          I don't know if this is legal or illegal, I have no idea. But when he mentioned this fact, I jumped at the possibility that something could be done, because you kind of get desperate when you see your father and mother in prison, and you want to do something for them. So I called Eugenio long distance from Dallas .

          Mr. LIEBELER. When was that, approximately? Shortly after you came back from Puerto Rico ?

          Mrs. ODIO. I think I can give you the exact date. This was before I left for Puerto Rico . June 28, Eugenio arrived from Miami to see Johnny Martin.

          Mr. LIEBELER. So you say that on June 28 Eugenio arrived from Miami , is that correct?

          Mrs. ODIO. He was supposed to have arrived June 14, but he never did, and I called-two times to make another appointment with Johnny, and he just arrived in time for me to see him. Then it was a time when we met, not Alentado, the other one, Alvareda--Rodriguez Alvareda.

          So they went to my house. Now, I was living at the time at 6140 Oram Street , the day they arrived. But when I went back to Puerto Rico, the same day, June 29, I saw Ray, and I explained to him what Johnny Martin here in Dallas was up to, and then he said that he was planning a trip also to see if something could be worked out. Mr. Ray himself was planning a trip in connection with that. He was going to Washington to be interviewed by some high official.

          Mr. LIEBELER. But he was going to come by Dallas first?

          Mrs. ODIO. Yes. So I went to Ponce , Puerto Rico, to get my children, which were four of them, and I brought them back to Dallas . And this is when I moved to Magellan Circle to a bigger apartment, to the Crestwood Apartments.

          Mr. LIEBELER. You moved there, after you came back from Puerto Rico with your children?

          Mrs. ODIO. I moved there exactly the end of July, the end of the month, because I know when I moved, and then it was in August--let's see, I lived there July, August, and to the last day of September in this Magellan Circle, and then I moved to Oak Cliff.

          Mr. LIEBELER. You actually did meet with Eugenio here in Dallas before you went to Puerto Rico ?

          Mrs. ODIO. Oh, yes.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Did Eugenio come to Dallas at any other time after that to meet you?

          Mrs. ODIO. No.

          Mr. LIEBELER. How many times have you met-with Eugenio here in Dallas ?

          Mrs. ODIO. Once.

          Mr. LIEBELER. That was in June of 1963?

          Mrs. ODIO. That's right.

 

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          Mr. LIEBELER. So it was not Eugenio who was with Leon when those men came to your apartment?

          Mrs. ODIO. No; I would have known Eugenio. He was a very close friend of my family and he did underground activity with my mother and father.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever tell anybody that it was Eugenio who had come to the apartment with Leon ?

           Mrs. ODIO. No.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Father McKann?

          Mrs. ODIO. Yes.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember that he called you on the telephone?

          Mrs. ODIO. Yes; he did call me on the telephone.

          Mr. LIEBELER. On April 30, 1964?

          Mrs. ODIO. The date, I don't recall. Probably.

          Mr. LIEBELER.  It was approximately the end of April or early May of 1964 when he called you from New Orleans ?

          Mrs. ODIO. From New Orleans .

          Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember discussing this whole question with him at that time?

          Mrs. ODIO. Yes. He asked me if I was withholding evidence of any kind.

          Mr. LIEBELER.  What did you tell him?

          Mrs. ODIO. I told him that everything that I knew I had already told him, and that I didn't know anything else that I could recall that could be important to you.

          Mr. LIEBELER. The only time that you were ever interviewed by anybody in connection with this was when Agent Hosty came to your place of work that day, isn't that correct?

          Mrs. ODIO. That's correct. But three times I noticed a car standing in front of my door where I live on Lovers Lane . I don't know if it belonged to the Secret Service or the FBI, but I was kind of concerned about it.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell Father McKann that one of the men--did you tell him the names of the men who were there?

          Mrs. ODIO. I told him what I knew, the names of the men that I knew.

          Mr. LIEBELER.  You told him one was Leopoldo?

          Mrs. ODIO. Yes.

          Mr. LIEBELER. But you did not tell him that you could identify the other man as Eugenio?

          Mrs. ODIO. That's right.

          Mr. LIEBELER. You did not tell him that?

          Mrs. ODIO. No.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Now, I have a report before me of an interview with Father McKann by a representative of the U.S. Secret Service in which it states that Father McKann told this Secret Service agent that you had told him that one of the men was Eugenio. But you indicated now that that is not so?

          Mrs. ODIO. No. Perhaps he could have misunderstood me, because he has the same problems with names. Probably I did tell him that the man was not Eugenio.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember discussing with him Eugenio's visit to you in June?

          Mrs. ODIO. I think I discussed it with him, yes.

          Mr. LIEBELER. During that telephone conversation?

          Mrs. ODIO. Yes; I think I discussed it.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell Father McKann that the name Oswald was never used in your presence by any of these men?

          Mrs. ODIO. Never was used except to introduce me, and the time when they left. They did not refer to him as Oswald.

          Mr. LIEBELER.  But they did in fact, introduce him as Leon Oswald? 

          Mrs. ODIO. And I shook hands with him.

          Mr. LIEBELER. That is also what you told Agent Hoary when he interviewed you on December 18, 1963, and that is indicated in his report?

          Mrs. ODIO. Oh, yes.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Now, a report that we have from Agent Hosty indicates that when you told him about Leopoldo's telephone call to you the following day,

 

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that you told Agent Hosty that Leopoldo told you he was not going to have anything more to do with Leon Oswald since Leon was considered to be loco?

          Mrs. ODIO. That's right. He used two tactics with me, and this I have analyzed. He wanted me to introduce this man. He thought that I had something to do with the underground, with the big operation, and I could get men into Cuba . That is what he thought, which is not true.

          When I had no reaction to the American, he thought that he would mention that the man was loco and out of his mind and would be the kind of man that could do anything like getting underground in Cuba, like killing Castro. He repeated several times he was an expert shotman. And he said, "We probably won't have anything to do with him. He is kind of 1oco."

          When he mentioned the fact that we should have killed President Kennedy--and this I recall in my conversation he was trying to play it safe. If I liked him, then he would go along with me, but if I didn't like him, he was kind of retreating to see what my reaction was. It was cleverly done.

          Mr. LIEBELER. So he actually played both sides of the fence?

          Mrs. ODIO. That's right, both sides of the fence.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Did Leopoldo tell you that Leon had been in the Armed Forces?

          Mrs. ODIO. Yes.

          Mr. LIEBELER. What did he tell you about that?

          Mrs. ODIO. He said he had been in the Marines. That is what he said.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Did he. tell you that Leon could help in the underground activities in which you were presumably engaged?

          Mrs. ODIO. That's right.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever talked to Eugenio about this matter since it happened?

          Mrs. ODIO. No, I have not even contacted him.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Is your sister Annie in Dallas now?

          Mrs. ODIO. She is coming now the end of July.

          Mr. LIEBELER. She is not here now?

          Mrs. ODIO. No, she is coming from Florida . She is coming to live with me. She spent 6 months with my brother.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us what her address is in Florida ?

          Mrs. ODIO. Yes. She is in--wait 1 second-- Southwest 82d Place , Miami , Fla.

          Mr. LIEBELER. How old were these two men that were with Leon ?

          Mrs. ODIO. One of them must have been--he had a mark on his face like, I can't explain it--his complexion wasn't too soft. He was kind of like as if he had been in the sun. So he must have been about near 40, one of them.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Which one was that?

          Mrs. ODIO. But the other one was young. That was the tall one.

          Mr. LIEBELER. That was not Leopoldo?

          Mrs. ODIO. Yes.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Alentado was younger?

          Mrs. ODIO. Yes.

          Mr. LIEBELER.  How old was he, would you say?

          Mrs. ODIO. About 34, something like that.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Now how old would you say Oswald was? Did you form an opinion about that when you saw him at the time?

          Mrs. ODIO. No; I have never thought about it. I mean, I never thought how old he was. He seemed to be a young man. I mean, not an old man. I would say he was a young man; yes.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Could you say how old you thought he was after you saw him that day in your apartment?

          Mrs. ODIO. I can't say that. I can establish in my thoughts; yes, I could establish an age, but I didn't think of it at the time.

          Mr. LIEBELER. What age would you establish you thought about it?

          Mrs. ODIO. Oh, 34 or 35.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Have you read the newspapers and watched television since the assassination and observed Oswald?

          Mrs. ODIO. I read some of it.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Did you read how old he was?

          Mrs. ODIO. I don't even know what age he is.

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          Mr. LIEBELER. About how tall was he?

          Mrs. ODIO. He wasn't too tall. He was maybe 4 inches taller than I am.

          Mr. LIEBELER. How tall are you?

          Mrs. ODIO. I am 5 feet 6 inches.

          Mr. LIEBELER.  So you think he was about 5 feet 10?

          Mrs. ODIO. Probably.

          Mr. LIEBELER About how was he built? Was he a heavy man or a light man?

          Mrs. ODIO. He was kind of a skinny man, because the shirt looked big on him, like it was borrowed.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Like it was borrowed from somebody else?

          Mrs. ODIO. Yes; that is the impression he gave me, because it kind of hung loose.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Didn't fit well?

          Mrs. ODIO. It didn't fit.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever had anything to do with the DRE movement here in Dallas ?

          Mrs. ODIO. Students Revolutionary Council, not at all.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know any representatives of the DRE?

          Mrs. ODIO. I just knew one.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Who was that?

          Mrs. ODIO. Sarah Castilo. Now, I have heard about the directorate in New Orleans, because I have family there and they told me about all the incidents about him in New Orleans, about Oswald giving propaganda in the street and how he was down in front of a judge and caused a fight with Carlos Bringuier, and that, of course, this man had been working pro-Castro in this Fair Play for Cuba.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald, you mean?

          Mrs. ODIO. Oswald.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Carlos?

          Mrs. ODIO. Yes; I have met him. I don't think he would remember me, but I know who Carlos Bringuier is. They call him Carlitos.

          Mr. LIEBELER. When did you meet him?

          Mrs. ODIO. I think it was a long time ago in Cuba , or I was introduced to him.

          Mr. LIEBELER. You have never met him here in the United States ?

          Mrs. ODIO. No.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Who in New Orleans told you about this incident between Bringuier and Oswald?

          Mrs. ODIO. My family discussed it in New Orleans how he had been handed the propaganda. The other member of the directorate came along, and they had a problem with him, because they were taken in front of a judge. This was true.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Have you read about that in the newspapers?

          Mrs. ODIO. No; I haven't. This I know from my family, the information we heard from New Orleans .

          Mr. LIEBELER. How much of your family are living in New Orleans ?

          Mrs. ODIO. I have an uncle and a cousin; a married cousin.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Which one of them told you about this?

          Mrs. ODIO. I think it was my uncle.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Were you there at that time?

          Mrs. ODIO. Yes.

          Mr. LIEBELER. In New Orleans ?

          Mrs. ODIO. Yes.

          Mr. LIEBELER. What is your uncle's name?

          Mrs. ODIO. Agustin Guitar.

          Mr. LIEBELER. When was this that you discussed this with him?

          Mrs. ODIO. February.

          Mr. LIEBELER. In February of 1964?

          Mrs. ODIO. Yes. I remember that, because I had just come out of an operation.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know a man by the name of Joaquin Martinez de Pinillos?

          Mrs. ODIO. No.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Emanuel Salvat?

 

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          Mrs. ODIO. I have heard about him very much. I know who he is, but I don't know him.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Do you associate him with one of the Cuban organizations, Salvat?

          Mrs. ODIO. If I have heard something about him, it has been attached to some organization.

          Mr. LIEBELER. You don't remember which one?

          Mrs. ODIO. No.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Would it be the DRE?

          Mrs. ODIO. I can't say for sure.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know a woman by the name of Anna Silvera?

          Mrs. ODIO. I have heard about her, too.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any idea how these three men came to your apartment? Have you ever thought about it and tried to establish any contact that they might have had with someone else that would have told them to come to your apartment?

          Mrs. ODIO. They were coming from New Orleans .

          Mr. LIEBELER. They came directly from New Orleans to your apartment?

          Mrs. ODIO. If it was true. It is very easy to find out any Cuban's in Dallas . Either you look in the phone book, or you call the Catholic Relief Service. If you say you are a friend of so and so, they will give you information enough.  They will tell you where they live and what their phone number is and how to contact them.

          Mr. LIEBELER. But you have no actual knowledge as to how these men came by your address?

          Mrs. ODIO. I kind of asked them, and they told me because they knew my family. That is how they established the conversation. They knew him and wanted to help me, and knew I belonged to JURE and all this.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Now, can you remember anything else about the incident when Leon and the two men came to your apartment, or about the telephone call that you got from Leopoldo, that you haven't already told me about?

          Mrs. ODIO. No. If I have forgotten something, but I think all the important things I have told you, like the trip, that they were leaving for a trip. And this struck me funny, because why would they want to meet me, if they were leaving for some reason or purpose. And it has been a long time. You don't think about these things every day and I am trying real hard to remember everything I can.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Now  is there anything else that you think we should know about that we haven't already asked you about in connection with this whole affair?

          Mrs. ODIO. No. It would be involving my opinion, but anything that is real facts of the thing, that really happened.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Is this the only time you ever saw the man called Leon Oswald?

          Mrs. ODIO. The only time.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever told anybody else that you have seen him other times?

          Mrs. ODIO. No, I don't think. It would be silly to withhold any information. I mean, the involvement was very slight, and look how much involved you get just from meeting him once. I have a pretty good idea who called the FBI.

          Mr. LIEBELER. About what?

          Mrs. ODIO. You see, I did not call the FBI to tell them this fact.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Why not?

          Mrs. ODIO. I was going to, but I had to get around to it to do it myself, because at the time everything was so confused and everybody was so excited about it, and I wanted to wait to see if it was important.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Who do you think called the FBI?

          Mrs. ODIO. Mrs. Connell, I think.

          Mr. LIEBELER. When you were interviewed by the FBI at your place of work, did you have any opinion about the way that interview was conducted?

          Mrs. ODIO. Yes. It brought me a lot of problems in my work. The two men were extremely polite and nice, the two gentlemen from the FBI. You know

 

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how people were afraid at the time, and my company, some officials of it were quite concerned that the FBI should have come to see me.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Have you discussed with Alentado these two men and how they came to see you?

          Mrs. ODIO. I never talked to him about it. I decided not to. mention anything after the FBI came to see me, because I thought they were going to contact him. I think I gave them the address and the telephone number.

          Mr. LIEBELER. You gave that to the FBI?

          Mrs. ODIO. Yes. He actually wouldn't know anything about it.

          Mr. LIEBELER. You say that because you asked these men if they had been sent by Alentado and they said no?

          Mrs. ODIO. That's right.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Mrs. Connell that you refer to is Mrs. C. L. Connell, is that correct?

          Mrs. ODIO. Yes.

          Mr. LIEBELER. How do you know her?

          Mrs. ODIO. It is a strange thing. Everything that has happened to me in the past year has been very strange. But I came from Ponce because I was mentally sick at the time. I was very emotionally disturbed, and they thought that a change from Puerto Rico to Dallas where my sister was would improve me, which it did, of course.  And I was supposed to see Dr. Cowley in Terrell. He is a Cuban psychiatrist, but he was busy at the time and he couldn't help me. Mrs. Connell belonged to the mental health and at the time she had helped the Cuban group some because they had money, and I was introduced by my sister.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Which one?

          Mrs. ODIO. Sarita. She actually sent part of the money for my trip to come here to Dallas .

          Mr. LIEBELER. Mrs. Connell?

          Mrs. ODIO. Yes. So I met her. We became very, very close friends, extremely close, and she talked to Dr. Stubblefield and she got me a psychiatrist which was Dr. Einspruck. I was here 4 months before I went to get my children.  We were close, like I said.

          Mr. LIEBELER. What makes you think she called the FBI about this?

          Mrs. ODIO. I am not certain of this, but I did discuss this with her after it happened, because I trusted her completely. I discussed it and told her that I was frightened, I didn't know what to do. I did not know if it was anything of importance that I should tell the FBI. And I was the only person--she was the only person I told.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell Dr. Einspruch about it?

          Mrs. ODIO. Yes; but the things you talk with a doctor in an office, he will tell you before that he is going to say it. He would have told me, "I am going to tell the FBI." You have to trust a doctor, especially a psychiatrist. I know they talked to him later, but I don't think it was him that called the FBI.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell Mrs. Connell that you had seen Oswald at some anti-Castro meetings, and that he had made some talks to these groups of refugees, and that he was very brilliant and clever and captivated the people to whom he had spoken?

          Mrs. ODIO. No.

          Mr. LIEBELER. You are sure you never told her that?

          Mrs. ODIO. No.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever seen Oswald at any meetings?

          Mrs. ODIO. Never. This is something when you talk to somebody, she probably was referring--we did have some meetings, yes. John Martino spoke, who was an American, who was very clever and brilliant. I am not saying that she is lying at all. When you are excited, you might get all your facts mixed up, and Martino was one of the men who was in Isle of Pines for 3 years. And he mentioned the fact that he knew Mr. Odio, that Mr. Odio's daughters were in Dallas , and she went to that meeting. I did not go, because they kept it quiet from me so I would not get upset about it. I don't know if you know who John Martino is.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Is that the same man as Johnny Martin?

 

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          Mrs. ODIO. No.

          Mr. LIEBELER. A different one?

          Mrs. ODIO. Yes.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Who is he?

          Mrs. ODIO. Martino is one that has written a book called "I was a Prisoner in Castro Cuba ," and he was on the Isle of Pines for 3 years. He came to Dallas and gave a talk to the Cubans about conditions in Cuba , and she was one of the ones that went to the meeting.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Mrs. Connell?

          Mrs. ODIO. Yes; and my sister Annie went, too.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Did Dr. Einspruch tell you that he had talked to the FBI?

          Mrs. ODIO. Yes.

          Mr. LIEBELER. About this?

          Mrs. ODIO. Yes.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you roughly what his conversation with the FBI was?

          Mrs. ODIO. He told me that they had asked him if I had hallucinations, that I was a person who was trying to make up some kind of story. That was the context of our story. I trusted Dr. Einspruch very much. He always told me the truth.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you he had told the FBI that you did not have hallucinations and you had probably not made this up?

          Mrs. ODIO. Yes. Other people make it up, but--

          Mr. LIEBELER. Did Mr. Einspruch tell you he had discussed this question with some representatives of the President's Commission?

          Mrs. ODIO. Yes.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you what that conversation was about?

          Mrs. ODIO. He told me that they had talked about an hour and a half about this whole thing, and he told them that he had already told me the whole facts of the thing, and he said let's not mention it any more. You know what we discussed. Don't be afraid.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Are you Still seeing Dr. Einspruch?

          Mrs. ODIO. No; I am through with therapy. He left.

          Mr. LIEBELER. He is no longer in Dallas ?

          Mrs. ODIO. No; he left for Philadelphia for the U.S. Naval Hospital .

          Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell Dr. Einspruch that you had seen Oswald .in more than one anti-Castro Cuban meeting?

          Mrs. ODIO. No; I don't think so, because I have never seen him before except the day he came to the door.

          Mr. LIEBELER. You have never seen him since?

          Mrs. ODIO. No.

          Mr. LIEBELER. You told us before that you had a fainting spell after you heard about the assassination. Would you tell us about that, please?

          Mrs. ODIO. Well, 'I had been having fainting spells all the past year. I would pass out for hours, and .this was part of my emotional problems. I was doing quite well except that I had come back from lunch, and I can, not deny that the news was a great shock to me, and I did pass out. I was taken in an ambulance to a hospital in Irving .

          Mr. LIEBELER. Did you pass out as soon as you had heard that the President had been shot?

          Mrs. ODIO. No; when I started thinking about it.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Had you heard that Oswald was involved in it before you passed out?

          Mrs. ODIO.  Can  I say something off the record?

          Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.

          (Witness talks off the record.)

          Mr. LIEBELER. At this point let's go back on the record. You indicated that you thought perhaps the three men who had come to your apartment had something to do with the assassination?

          Mrs. ODIO. Yes.

          Mr. LIEBELER. And you thought of that before you had the fainting spell?

 

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          Mrs. ODIO. Yes. Of course, I have "psychiatric thinking." My psychiatrist says I have psychiatric thinking. I mean, I can perceive things very well.

          Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of thinking?

          Mrs. ODIO. He says I have tremendous intuition about things and psychiatric thinking, which has helped me many times. So immediately, for some reason, in my mind, I established a connection between the two greasy men that had come to my door and the conversation that the Cubans should have killed President Kennedy, and I couldn't believe it. I was so upset about it. So probably the lunch had something to do with it, too, and I was so upset, but that is probably why I passed out.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Had you heard the name Oswald before you passed out?

          Mrs. ODIO. No, sir. It was only the connection.

          Mr. LIEBELER. You had made the connection in your mind between these three men that came to your apartment, and the assassination?

          Mrs. ODIO. Yes.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Primarily because of the remarks they had made about how the Cubans should have assassinated President Kennedy because of the Bay of Pigs situation, is that correct?

          Mrs. ODIO. That's right.

          Mr. LIEBELER. You had not seen any pictures of Oswald or heard his name prior to the time of your passing out?

          Mrs. ODIO. No; I don't recall--maybe you could tell me what the exact time they mentioned by the radio the name of the suspect. They spoke of a suspect all the time, but they did not mention any name. And I think I came out about 8 o'clock that night. They gave me a shot, so I did not know any name until that night.

          Mr. LIEBELER. What time did you pass out?

          Mrs. ODIO. I came back from lunch about 5 minutes before I o'clock, because we had to punch the clock at 1, and by 1:30 we knew the President was dead, and we all decided to leave, and it was about 10 minutes to 2 that we walked out of the office, and I think I passed out back in the warehouse.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Just after you left the office?

          Mrs. ODIO. Yes.

          Mr. LIEBELER. So it would have been sometime before 2 o'clock or right after?

          Mrs. ODIO. Yes.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Did these men indicate that they had an come from New Orleans together?

          Mrs. ODIO. I am pretty sure that is what he said. Either that they had been, or that they had just come. I cannot be sure of either one, but they had been in New Orleans , or had just come from New Orleans .

          Mr. LIEBELER. Would you recognize these men again if you saw their pictures, do you think?

          Mrs. ODIO. I think I could recognize one of them.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think they definitely took like Cubans?

          Mrs. ODIO. Well, this is my opinion. They looked very much like Mexicans. But I might be wrong at that, because I don't remember any Mexican accent. But the color of Mexicans, when I am referring to greasy, that kind of complexion, that is what I mean.

          Mr. LIEBELER. When did you first become aware of the fact that this man who had been at your apartment was the man who had been arrested in connection with the assassination?

          Mrs. ODIO. It was immediately.

          Mr. LIEBELER. As soon as you saw his picture?

          Mrs. ODIO. Immediately; I was so sure.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any doubt about it?

          Mrs. ODIO. I don't have any doubts.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any doubt about it then?

          Mrs. ODIO.  I kept saying it can't be to myself; it just can't be. I mean it couldn't be, but when my sister walked into the hospital and she said, "Sylvia, have you seen the man?" And I said, "Yes." And she said, "That was the man that was at the door of my house." So I had no doubts then.

 

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          Mr. LIEBELER. Would you recognize this man's voice?

          Mrs. ODIO. I don't know. I am not sure.

          Mr. LIEBELER. I show you a photograph that has been marked as Bringuier Exhibit No. 1, and ask you if you can identify anybody in that photograph?

          Mrs. ODIO. That is Oswald.

          Mr. LIEBELER With the X?

          Mrs. ODIO. Yes.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recognize anybody else in the picture?

          Mrs. ODIO. No.

          Mr. LIEBELER.  I specifically call your attention to the man standing to Oswald's right, the second man behind him, who is facing the camera and has in his hand some leaflets.

          Mrs. ODIO. Does he have some glasses on?

          Mr. LIEBELER. The man that I just described?

          Mrs. ODIO. Does he have any glasses?

          Mr. LIEBELER. Let me see the picture.

          Mrs. ODIO. He has the same build that that man has in the back.

          Mr. LIEBELER. He has the same build?

          Mrs. ODIO. A lot of hair here [pointing to the right temple].

          Mr. LIEBELER. You are pointing to this man here?

          Mrs. ODIO. Yes.

          Mr. LIEBELER. You say that his hair appeared to be pulled back in some way?

          Mrs. ODIO. One of them, Leopoldo, or the other one. One has very thick hair.

          Mr. LIEBELER. You are describing Leopoldo?

          Mrs. Ohio . He had hair in front, but he has it pushed back in here.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Like sort of a bald spot in his front?

          Mrs. ODIO. Yes.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Excuse me just a minute, I will be back. Now, you have indicated that the individual standing immediately behind Oswald and to his left, actually in front of the door of this building might look something like one of the men that was in your apartment?

          Mrs. ODIO. That's right. That height and that tall. 

          Mr. LIEBELER. Now, what about the man standing immediately next to him, so we have in the picture starting from the right, a head, and then a man standing in the opposite direction from Oswald, and then we have Oswald, and then we have the individual that you have just referred to about his pushed back hair, or the bald spot in the front, and then we have another man who has a group of leaflets in his hand.

          Mrs. ODIO. He looks familiar, but I don't think that was one of the men I saw there at the door. I don't know, Cubans sometimes have the same physique and everything, the narrowness of the shoulders. I mean the back looks something like this man I am telling you about.

          Mr. LIEBELER. But you are unable to identify positively anybody else in the picture other than Oswald?

          Mrs. ODIO. No; that's correct.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Now, I show you a picture that has been marked Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-B, which appears to show a front view of the man with the bald spot, and I ask you if you recognize him as one of the men that was with Oswald in the apartment.

          Mrs. ODIO. No.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Are you sure that it was not, or you are unable to say?

          Mrs. ODIO. No; that man was thinner and a little taller than that picture.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you are referring--

          Mrs. ODIO. I am referring to this man now.

          Mr. LIEBELER. You are referring to a man with the white shirt whose back is toward the camera?

          Mrs. ODIO. Yes.

          Mr. LIEBELER What about the man immediately behind Oswald?

          Mrs. ODIO. No; he was taller than that.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Let's refer to this as No. 1. Does it appear to you that the man who is standing sort of sideways to the camera immediately behind Oswald

 

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in Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-B is the same man as this man who is immediately behind Oswald and facing away from the camera in Bringuier Exhibit No. 1?

          Mrs. ODIO. No; it seems like a different back to me. Actually, possibly the same person, but for some reason, maybe the picture gives trim a slimmer look.

          Mr. LIEBELER.  You keep referring in Pizzo's exhibit to the man whose back is to the camera with a white shirt?

          Mrs. ODIO. Yes; he came with a white shirt.

          Mr. LIEBELER. I am having trouble, because I first thought that this man here, who I will mark with the number 1 in Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-B is the same as the man who I will mark as No. 1 in Bringuier's Exhibit No. 1, but it appears that that is not so?

          Mrs. ODIO. No; this man is this man in the picture.

          Mr. LIEBELER. So we have established that No. 2 in Bringuier's Exhibit No. 1 is the same as the man marked No. 1 in Pizzo's Exhibit No. 453-B?

          Mrs. ODIO. Exactly.

          Mr. LIEBELER. And the man who we will mark 2 in Pizzo's Exhibit No. 453-B is the man marked 1 in Bringuier's Exhibit No. 1?

          Mrs. ODIO. That's right.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Now, as far as the man marked No. 1 in Bringuier's Exhibit No. 1 is concerned, you think when you see him there, that might look like the man who was in the apartment?

          Mrs. ODIO. He has the same build in the back, and same kind of profile, this side. Here he looks a little broader, and that is not him. It is the same man, but that wasn't the way Leopoldo looked.

          Mr. LIEBELER. So the man marked 2 in Exhibit No. 453-B, Pizzo, does not look like the man who was in your apartment?

          Mrs. ODIO. No.

          Mr. LIEBELER. You cannot in any event recognize the man who we shall mark 3 in ,both pictures; is that correct?

          Mrs. ODIO. Correct. Let me look at that man here [looking]. He wasn't one of them, but he looks so familiar to somebody, this one, the one that has his hand on his face.

          Mr. LIEBELER. You indicate that the man who we shall mark 4 in, Pizzo's Exhibit No. 453-B looks somewhat familiar?

          Mrs. ODIO. Somewhat familiar; yes.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Now, I Show you Pizzo Exhibit 453-A and ask you if you recognize anybody in that picture?

          Mrs. ODIO. Who is this man?

          Mr. LIEBELER.  You are referring to the man who we shall mark 1 on Exhibit No. 453-A. Does he look familiar to you?

          Mrs, ODIO. The color of him looks familiar. That was more or less the color of that short man. He did not look real white.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Does it appear to you that the man we have marked 1 in Exhibit No. 453-A is an oriental?

          Mrs. ODIO. Is an oriental?

          Mr. LIEBELER. I don't know. Does it look like it to you?

          Mrs. ODIO. I don't know. I am just talking about the color of his face, the same color. Now he looks more familiar in this picture, you see.

          Mr. LIEBELER. When you say this, you point to the man who we will mark 2 in Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-A, and he is the same man who is No. 2 in Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-B, and No. 1 in Bringuier's Exhibit No. 1? They all seem to be the same man, don't they?

          Mrs. ODIO. I think they are all the same man, but for some reason in this picture, he is wearing glasses, isn't he?

          Mr. LIEBELER. Well, it looks like it; doesn't it?

          Mrs. ODIO. Yes.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Did this man wear glasses who was in your apartment?

          Mrs. ODIO. Yes.

          Mr. LIEBELER. He did?

          Mrs. ODIO. Didn't wear them all the time.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Now, do you recognize Oswald in any of these pictures; in Exhibit No. 453-A?

 

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          Mrs. ODIO. [Pointing.]

          Mr. LIEBELER. You indicate the man with the green X over his head as being Oswald, and that is the man who was in your apartment?

          Mrs. ODIO. He looks a little bit fatter. I don't know if it is the picture. He looked thinner when he was in the apartment, than he looks in this picture. He was kind of drawn when he was there. His face was kind of drawn. But he looks more familiar there. He looks more like he looked that day.

          Mr. LIEBELER. In Exhibit No. 453-B, the man with the green line over his head looks more like the man that was in your apartment; is that correct?

          Mrs. ODIO. That's correct.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any doubt that that man with the green line over his head in Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-B Was the man who was in your apartment?

          Mrs. ODIO. Well, if it is not, it is his twin.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Now, I show you a photograph that has been marked Garner Exhibit No. I and ask you if you recognize that man.

          Mrs. ODIO. That is Oswald.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Is that the man who was in your apartment?

          Mrs. ODIO. Yes.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Are you sure?

          Mrs. ODIO. He doesn't have the little thing, the little moustache that he had that day. He looks shaved there, and he did not look shaved that day.

          Mr. LIEBELER. I show you Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-C and ask you if that looks like the man who was in your apartment?

          Mrs. ODIO. That is not the expression he had, but he has the same forehead and everything. But his lips, the only thing that confuses me is the lips that did not look like the same man. It is that unshaved thing that got me that day.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Does Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-C appear to you, does the man in that picture appear to be Somewhat unshaven, or similar to the one you saw in your apartment?

          Mrs. ODIO. I think he was not. The only thing he had not shaved was around where the mouth is, and everything else was shaved. That is way he looked, kind of clothes hanging on him.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think this man in Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-C is Lee Harvey Oswald?

          Mrs. ODIO. Yes; I think that is him.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think that is the man that was in your apartment?

          Mrs. ODIO. Well, let me say something. I think this man was the one that was in my apartment. I am not too sure of that picture. He didn't look like this. He was smiling that day. He was more smiling than in this picture.

          Mr. LIEBELER. We have to put the pictures down on the record, because when somebody reads the record-- you say that he--

          Mrs. ODIO. He looks more relaxed in Exhibit No. 453-C. He looks more smiling, like Exhibit No. 453-B, or different countenance.

          Mr. LIEBELER. I have some motion pictures of the scene that we have been looking at here in these still pictures. These pictures that have been marked Exhibit Nos. 453-B and 453-C were taken from a movie that was made of that, and we also have on that movie a picture of Lee Oswald as he appeared on the television program in New Orleans on a sound track. I want you to look at those pictures and tell us after you have looked at the pictures if you think that man was the same man who was in your apartment.

          I have not yet made arrangements for the projector to be set up, and there is an FBI agent bringing another picture over here from the FBI office that I want you to look at this morning before you leave. But I would like to have you--and I have another witness waiting for me, and I have nine more witnesses. Could you come back later this evening to look at the motion pictures? And in the meantime, I will have the Secret Service set up a projection room to view the films?

          Mrs. ODIO. Yes.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Why don't we terminate momentarily now, and as soon as the FBI comes over, I will show you this picture, and I will call the Secret Service

 

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and find out when he can set up the viewing of this film, and I will tell You what time to come back.

          Mrs. ODIO. Since I am going to be downtown, do you want me to come back any special time?

          Mr. LIEBELER. I will tell you as soon as I talk to Mr. Sorrels.

          Mrs. ODIO. Before I leave?

          Mr. LIEBELER. I can't tell you before you leave. I will see if I can set up a time. When you say that these men came to your apartment in late September of 1963, can you give me your best recollection as to how long before the first of October they came? You moved out of your apartment in the Crestwood Apartments on the very last day of September; is that correct? Or can you. remember? Is there any way you can check that by finding out when you moved into your apartment in Oak Cliff?

          Mrs. ODIO. The day I moved, I had gone to work, so it must have been on a Monday or Tuesday. This man must have come by the end of the previous weekend.

          Mr. LIEBELER. I show you a 1963 calendar and point out to you that the last day of September was Monday.

          Mrs. ODIO. That is probably the day I moved.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Did you say that you also started working at a new job that same day?

          Mrs. ODIO. No, sir.

          Mr. LIEBELER. But you had been working on the day that you did move?

          Mrs. ODIO. I started working initially the 15th of September, because it was too far away where I lived in Irving. I started the 15th of September, I am almost sure of the 15th or the 9th.  Let me see what day was the 9th. It was a Monday. It was the 9th, sir, that I started working at National Chemsearch.

          (Special Agent Bardwell O. Odum of the Federal Bureau of Investigation entered the hearing room.)

          Mr. LIEBELER. This is Mr. Odum from the FBI. As a matter of fact, Mr. Odum was the man that interviewed you.

          Mrs. ODIO. I remember. He looked very familiar.

          Mr. ODUM. What is the name?

          Mrs. ODIO. Odio.

          Mr. ODUM. I interview so many people, it slips my mind at the moment.

           (Agent Odum left the hearing room.)

          Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you have indicated on the calendar, you circled the 30th of September, and you drew a line around the 26th, 27th, and 28th of September. Can you tell me what you meant by that?

          Mrs. ODIO. The 30th was the day I moved. The 26th, 27th, and 28th, it could have been either of those 3 days. It was not on a Sunday.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Now you indicated previously that Leopoldo called you the immediately following day after they had been there; is that correct?

          Mrs. ODIO. That's correct.

          Mr. LIEBELER. And you also testified, according to my recollection, that you had been at work on the day that Leopoldo called you; is that correct?

          Mrs. ODIO. Yes; it would be the 26th or the 27th for sure.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Would you work on Saturday?

          Mrs. ODIO. No; but he could have called me Saturday.  But they would have come Thursday or Friday.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Thursday or Friday?

          Mrs. ODIO. That's right.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Because you had been at work on the day they came?

          Mrs. ODIO. Yes.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether you had been at work on the day that Leopoldo called you?

          Mrs. ODIO. I don't recall that.

          Mr. LIEBELER. You can't recall that?

          Mrs. ODIO. No. I know I was very busy with the kids, but I don't remember.

          Mr. LIEBELER. I show you a picture which depicts the same individual that is depicted in an exhibit which has previously been marked Commission Exhibit No. 237, and I ask you if you recognize that man.

 

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          Mrs. ODIO. No, sir.

          Mr. LIEBELER. That is not the man that was with Leon when he came to your apartment?

          Mrs. ODIO. No. I wish I could point him to you. One was very tall and slim, kind of. He had glasses, because he took them off and put them back on before he left, and they were not sunglasses. And the other one was short, very Mexican looking. Have you ever seen a short Mexican with lots of thick hair and a lot of hair on his chest?

          Mr. LIEBELER. So there was was a shorter one and a tall one, and the shorter one was rather husky?

          Mrs. ODIO. He was not as big as this man.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Not as big as the man in Exhibit No. 237?

          Mrs. ODIO. That's right.

          Mr. LIEBELER. IS that the man in Exhibit No. 237 that had a pushed back spot on his head?

          Mrs. ODIO. It was different. In the middle of his head it was thick, and it looked like he didn't have any hair, and the other side, I didn't notice that.

          Mr. LIEBELER. This was the taller man; is that right? The one known as Leopoldo?

          Mrs. ODIO. Yes.

          Mr. LIEBELER. About how much did the taller man weigh, could you guess?

          Mrs. ODIO. He was thin--about 165 pounds.

          Mr. LIEBELER. How tall was he, about?

          Mrs. ODIO. He was about 3 1/2 inches, almost 4 inches taller than I was. Excuse me, he couldn't have. Maybe it was just in the position he was standing. I know that made him look taller, and I had no heels on at the time, so he must have been 6 feet; yes.

          Mr. LIEBELER. And the shorter man was about how tall, would you say? Was he taller or shorter than Oswald?

          Mrs. ODIO. Shorter than Oswald.

          Mr. LIEBELER. About how much, could you guess?

          Mrs. ODIO. Five feet seven, something like that.

          Mr. LIEBELER. So he could have been 2 or 3 inches shorter than Oswald?

          Mrs. ODIO. That's right.

          Mr. LIEBELER. He weighed about how much, would you say?

          Mrs. ODIO. 170 pounds, something like that, because he was short, but he was stocky, and he was the one that had the strange complexion.

          Mrs. LIEBELER. Was it pock marked, would you say?

          Mrs. ODIO. No; it was like it wasn't, because he was, oh, it was like he had been in the sun for a long time.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Let's terminate now and we will resume when we show the film to you tonight.

 

-----------

 

TESTIMONY OF SYLVIA ODIO RESUMED

 

          The testimony of Sylvia Odio was taken at 6:30 p.m., on July 22, 1964, at the office of the Secret Service, 505 North Ervay Street, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Forrest Sorrels and John Joe Howlett, special agents of the U.S. Secret Service were present.

 

          Mr. LIEBELER. This is the continued deposition of Mrs. Sylvia Odio, which is now being continued in the office of the Secret Service. We have made arrangements in the presence of Agent Forrest Sorrels and Agent Howlett, to show some movie films of some street scenes in the city of New Orleans, and also a television appearance that Lee Harvey Oswald made over station WDSU in New Orleans in August of 1963. I want to ask Mrs. Odio to watch the film, and if you recognize anybody in the film at any time say so as you see him and point the individual out and we will run the film backward and see what it looks like at that time. Please go ahead, John.

 

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          Mrs. ODIO [viewing film]. The man from the back with the glasses, I have seen him, the tall thin one.   I would like to see the beginning where the man started coming in.

          (Film was rerun.)

          Mrs. ODIO. You see the one with the glasses, that thin man. He doesn't have a mustache, though.

          Mr. LIEBELER. That third man there?

          Mrs. ODIO. I will show you the back when he comes. The man over to the right in the white shirt from the back, that looks so familiar.

          Mr. LIEBELER. That one right over there?

          Mrs. ODIO. Right; he has the same build.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Can you back it up, John? Let me ask you this now, Sylvia.  Did you recognize Lee Harvey Oswald?

          Mrs. ODIO. Oh, yes; definitely. He made a television appearance. He looked much more similar than the pictures from New Orleans. He had the same mustache here.

          Mr. LIEBELER. In the television appearance?

          Mrs. ODIO. Yes.

          Mr. LIEBELER. What about in the pictures that you saw in the police station of him standing against the wall when he walked out of the police station, did that look like the man that was in your apartment?

          Mrs. ODIO. Yes.

          Mr. LIEBELER. What about his voice? Did you recognize any similarity in his voice?

          Mrs. ODIO. No. I don't know if it was because in the television it changed, or something, and he didn't speak too much that day, and it is hard to remember a voice after such a long time.

          Mr. LIEBELER. After looking at this picture, are you more convinced, or less convinced, or do you still have about the same feeling that you had before you looked at it that the man who was in your apartment late in September was the same man as Lee Harvey Oswald?

          Mrs. ODIO. I have to be careful about that, because I have the same feeling that it was, but at the same time I have been looking at papers for months and months of pictures, and these help you to remember too much. I wish I could isolate the incident without remembering the other pictures. I have a feeling there are certain pictures that do not resemble him. It was not the Oswald that was standing in front of my door. He was kind of tired looking. He had a little smile, but he was sunken in in the face that day. More skinny, I would say.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Well, do you have any doubts in your mind after looking at these pictures that the man that was in your apartment was the same man as Lee Harvey Oswald?

          Mrs. ODIO. I don't have any doubts.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Do you want to run the picture once more, John?

          Mrs. ODIO. What I am trying to establish is the man with the bald in the back was similar to the profile, but he seems lighter in this picture. But the men looked like Mexicans. They did not look like Cubans.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Now we have here two pictures that have been made from films of this movie.

          Mrs. ODIO. In that picture he didn't resemble that at all [pointing].

          Mr. LIEBELER. You are referring to Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-B; the man marked with the number 2?

          Mrs. ODIO. That's right.

          Mr. LIEBELER. That is the same man you have been talking about as looking similar?

          Mrs. ODIO. That's right. But in the motion picture he looks thinner and I was trying to give you an idea of the man that I saw that day.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think that the man you saw in the motion picture, who is the same man marked number 2 in Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-B, could have been the same man that was in your apartment with Oswald?

          Mrs. ODIO. I think he had a mustache, and this man in the apartment does not have any mustache.

 

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          Mr. LIEBELER. But otherwise, you think that he looks similar?

          Mrs. ODIO. They have the same stature and same build and profile. I can say he was standing to the side in the door, and his hair was pulled back on one side.

          Mr. LIEBELER.  Do you want to run through it again, please?

          (Film was rerun.)

          Mrs. ODIO. The picture that resembled most, even though his hair was not so cut that day.

          Mr. LIEBELER. You have referred to the individual that was walking out of the police station?

          Mrs. ODIO. With his back.

          Mr. LIEBELER. He had a mustache, and he had glasses on?

          Mrs. ODIO. That day he did not have a mustache. He just had glasses, and he would take them off and on. Lee Oswald-- Leon is fatter in this picture than what I actually saw him.

          Mr. LIEBELER. You think this man standing on the corner, who is No. 2 in Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-B, is the same man you saw walking out of the police station?

          Mrs. ODIO. No.

          Mr. LIEBELER. It is a different man?

          Mrs. ODIO. That's right. The one that is walking out of the door, kind of thin-looking individual, is darker.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Is the man that was walking out of the police station?

          Mrs. ODIO. You want me to point it out?

          Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. Run it back. I think we should indicate in the record there was a confusion in my mind, because I think it is pretty clear that the man that was walking out of the police station is a different man than is in Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-B.

          Mrs. ODIO. He looked greasy looking. I will tell you when [looking at film].

          Mr. LIEBELER. Is it that man with the sunglasses that walked out of the door?

          Mrs. ODIO. That is the picture I see. That picture is what I mean.

          Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. There he is again [indicating individual with mustache leaving police station with Carios Bringuier and others depicted on film].

          Mrs. ODIO. There he is again; big ears, but from the front, he doesn't resemble it. It is the same build from the back, that thin neck.

          Mr. LIEBELER.  You think that that man we have Just seen in the picture resembles one of the men that was in your apartment?

          Mrs. ODIO. From the back, because I remember that I put the light on on the porch, and I saw them get in the car. I wanted to be sure they were gone.

          Mr. LIEBELER. But it is clearly not the same individual?

          Mrs. ODIO. No, sir; clearly not the same. I am trying to see something, to put something in paper that would make me remember. [The film was rerun but the witness did not recognize anyone depicted on it except as indicated above.]

          Mr. LIEBELER. Thank you very much, Mrs. Odio.