WALDMAN-SCIBOR
Volume VII
TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM J.
WALDMAN
The testimony of William J. Waldman was taken on May 20, 1964, at
William J. Waldman, called as a witness herein, having been first duly
sworn, was examined and testified as follows:
Mr. BELIN. Would you please state your full name?
Mr. WALDMAN. William J. Waldman.
Mr. BELIN. And where do you live, Mr. Waldman?
Mr. WALDMAN.
Mr. BELIN. Is that a suburb of
Mr. WALDMAN. It's a suburb of
360
Page 361
Mr. BELIN. And what is your occupation?
Mr. WALDMAN. Vice president of Klein's Sporting Goods, Inc.
Mr. BELIN. How long have you been with Klein's?
Mr. WALDMAN. Approximately 12 years.
Mr. BELIN. And in your capacity as vice president, what are your general
areas of work?
Mr. WALDMAN. Supervising office, warehouse, and retail operations,
participating in the merchandising and advertising.
Mr. BELIN. What kinds of products does Klein's sell?
Mr. WALDMAN. Sporting goods in the majority, with some few specialty
items which appeal to the male consumer.
Mr. BELIN. Would these include goods such as fishing items or hunting
items?
Mr. WALDMAN. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. What is the fact as to whether or not included in the products
handled by Klein's are rifles?
Mr. WALDMAN. Would you restate the question?
Mr. BELIN. Does Klein's Sporting Goods, Inc., handle rifles in their line
of sporting goods?
Mr. WALDMAN. They do.
Mr. BELIN. For the record, we would like to have a little bit more of
your overall background. Were you originally born in
Mr. WALDMAN. No; I was born in
Mr. BELIN. Well, you went through high school?
Mr. WALDMAN. I completed high school, attended Carnegie
Mr. BELIN. Well, you had some college work then?
Mr. WALDMAN. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. And after you got out of college, what did you do?
Mr. WALDMAN. I got out of college and I was employed by Sears and
Roebuck, Spiegel's, Inc., and various other employment, served in the
Mr. BELIN. This is during World War II?
Mr. WALDMAN. During World War II. Following which I was employed for a
brief period in a family business, and subsequently by Klein's Sporting Goods.
Mr. BELIN. Mr. Waldman, I hand you what is being marked as Waldman
Deposition Exhibit I and ask you to state if you know what this is.
Mr. WALDMAN. I do.
Mr. BELIN. Could you please tell us what that statement constitutes?
Mr. WALDMAN. This constitutes a purchase order of Klein's directed to
Crescent Firearms Co. for Italian Carcano rifles prepared on January 2, 19--,
oh, wait a minute; hold that a moment, January 24, 1963, calling for 200 units
at a cost of $8.50.
Mr. BELIN. Now----
Mr. WALDMAN. I haven't finished.
Mr. BELIN. Let me just ask you this preliminary question: This is a
photostatic copy of a document, is it not?
Mr. WALDMAN. It is.
Mr. BELIN. And is the original copy, or was the original copy prepared by
someone under your direction or supervision?
Mr. WALDMAN. The original was prepared under a system which I originated
and this particular order was not prepared at my direction. It would be--the
merchandise was ordered in a routine basis at a time in which it was needed,
and----
Mr. BELIN. Do you know who the person is that filled out this order?
Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; his initials are so indicated as "M.W."
Mr. BELIN. Would that be the name at the lower lefthand corner of Exhibit
1?
Mr. WALDMAN. It is.
Mr. BELIN. And that is who?
Mr. WALDMAN. Mitchell W. Westra.
361
Page 362
Mr. BELIN. At that time was he an employee of your company?
Mr. WALDMAN. He was.
Mr. BELIN. Was he under your jurisdiction and supervision?
Mr. WALDMAN. He was not under my direct supervision, no. He was under the
supervision of Sam Kasper.
Mr. BELIN. And where is Sam Kasper now?
Mr. WALDMAN. He may or may not be here.
Mr. BELIN. I don't mean this afternoon. Is he with the company?
Mr. WALDMAN. He is the vice president of our company.
Mr. BELIN. He is the other vice president of the company?
Mr. WALDMAN. Correct.
Mr. BELIN. All right. Now, you started to go into the detail of what
Deposition Exhibit I constituted. I just wonder if you will pick up where you
left off here.
Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; on the same form we show a record of the receipt of the
rifles in question, specifically this extreme right-hand column which is filled
in, indicating that on February 22, delivery was made to us by Lifschultz
Trucking Co. I might explain the difference in the two dates here.
Mr. BELIN. Go ahead.
Mr. WALDMAN. The February 21 date is the date in which the merchandise
came to our premises whereas the date of February 22, is the date in which they
were officially received by our receiving department.
Mr. BELIN. Your receiving department checks each order to see that the
physical contents match the stated shipment on the invoice; is that correct?
Mr. WALDMAN. They don't necessarily see that they match because they
frequently do not match, but they determine actually how much was received by
us.
Mr. BELIN. Now, I notice on Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. I a date well,
I might read everything under the column of description; it says Italian
Mannlicher-Carcano, Model 91TS, bolt action 6-shot rifle; and then cal.--that's
for caliber--6.5, and then there is an "X" and 52 mm Italian-select,
clean, and test-fired, changed to Beretta Terni M19, then a slash line 38 EFF,
and then the date of 4/16/62. Explain that date and that description.
Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; this general style of rifle was made by a number of
different manufacturers over a period of time and there were minor modifications
made by---developed by each of the manufacturers.
Mr. BELIN. Would this be similar to a number of manufacturers making the
Springfield rifle in this country?
Mr. WALDMAN. As for example, the different manufacturers making the
Springfield rifle. Basically, the weapons were of the same general design, but
as I say, there were details that were different.
We originally had ordered one style of Carcano rifle, one that was known
as the Model 91TS. As time went on, we changed to another model known as the
Model 91/38EFF, this on April 13, 1962.
Mr. BELIN. Now, I also note on Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 1, under
the item number--some letters here or numbers----
Mr. WALDMAN. C20-T749.
Mr. BELIN. What does that signify?
Mr. WALDMAN. This is an identification number assigned by us for internal
operating purposes.
Mr. BELIN. Would this be something akin to a catalog number?
Mr. WALDMAN. Yes.
Off the record now. Can I speak without being----
Mr. BELIN. Yes.
(Whereupon, discussion was had off the record.)
Mr. BELIN. On the record.
Now, Mr. Waldman, you just requested to go off the record and told me
that this is, the number that you read is not necessarily the only number that
is assigned to one of these model rifles. Do you ever have any other numbers
assigned to them?
Mr. WALDMAN. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. What would be the occasion for
assigning a different number?
Mr. WALDMAN. When the rifle is offered and sold together with a scope and
362
Page 363
mount, we
assign a different catalog number which describes the rifle, the scope and the
mount.
Mr. BELIN. Did you ever sell any of these particular rifles with scopes
and mounts?
Mr. WALDMAN. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Were these scopes and mounts purchased from the same source as
the rifle itself?
Mr. WALDMAN. No.
Mr. BELIN. Mr. Waldman, on Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 1, does the
date April 13, 1962, have anything to do with the time with which you received
orders from customers of Klein's for any of these rifles?
Mr. WALDMAN. That date has no reference to our activity with consumers as
such. It only indicates in our buying of these rifles we changed from one model
to another, both models being very similar.
Mr. BELIN. Both being the Mannlicher-Carcano 6.5 caliber rifle?
Mr. WALDMAN. Correct.
Mr. BELIN. I'm going to hand you what has been marked as Waldman
Deposition Exhibit 2 and ask you to state if you know what that is.
Mr. WALDMAN. I do.
Mr. BELIN. What is it?
Mr. WALDMAN. This is a delivery receipt from the Lifschultz Fast Freight
covering 10 cases of guns delivered to Klein's on February 21, 1963, from
Crescent Firearms.
Mr. BELIN. I note that there is some handwriting on Waldman Deposition
Exhibit No. 2 that says, "Klein's Sporting Goods, Inc., J. A. Mueller,
2--21-63." Would that be one of your employees at that time?
Mr. WALDMAN. He was. Mr. Mueller was in charge of our receiving
department at that time.
Mr. BELIN. And do you know how many guns or rifles would have been packed
in each carton or case?
Mr. WALDMAN. Referring to the various delivery
receipts, copies of which we have, these are packing slips, incidentally, not
receipts; these were packing receipts included in each case. It was indicated
there were 10 rifles in each case.
Mr. BELIN. I'm going to hand you what has been marked as Waldman
Deposition Exhibit No. 3 and ask you to state if you know what this is.
Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; these are memos prepared by Crescent Firearms showing
serial numbers of rifles that were shipped to us and each one of these
represents those rifles that were contained in a case.
Mr. BELIN. Now, you earlier mentioned that these were packed with the
case.
Mr. WALDMAN. Well, I would like to correct that. This particular company
does not include these with the cases, but sends these memos separately with
their invoice.
Mr. BELIN. Now, again, Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 3 is a photostatic
copy. Do you have the actual copies that came to you in front of you at this
time?
Mr. WALDMAN. I do.
Mr. BELIN. And is Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 3 an accurate photostat
of these other copies?
Mr. WALDMAN. It is.
Mr. BELIN. I notice that there are numbers on each of these papers with
10 serial numbers each. I see here No. 3672, 3504 on the first photostat of
Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 3. Do you see that?
Mr. WALDMAN. I do.
Mr. BELIN. I'm going to ask you to search through
these 10 photostats and see if you find any invoice number that has on it a
serial number, C-2766.
Mr. WALDMAN. Crescent Firearms delivery memo No. 3620 covering carton or
case No. 3376 does have a--indicate a rifle bearing serial No. 2766.
Mr. BELIN. Well, is it 2766 or is there a prefix to it?
Mr. WALDMAN. There is a prefix, C-2766.
Mr. BELIN. And you see that as also a part of Waldman Deposition Exhibit
No. 3; I believe you are reading from the actual document in your possession
363
Page 364
which Waldman
Deposition Exhibit No. 3 is a photostat of; is that correct?
Mr. WALDMAN. That's correct.
Mr. BELIN. When a shipment of rifles is received, what is your procedure
with regard to recordkeeping on the serial numbers of the rifles?
Mr. WALDMAN. We assign to each rifle a control number which is a number
used by us to record the history of the gun while it is in our possession and
until it is sold, thus each rifle will be tagged with both this control number
and with the serial number of the rifle which is stamped on the--imprinted on
the gun by the manufacturer.
Mr. BELIN. Do you have the
same--does the same manufacturer give different serial numbers for each weapon
that the manufacturer makes?
Mr. WALDMAN. The gun manufacturers imprint a different number on each
gun. It's stamped into the frame of the gun and serves as a unique
identification for each gun.
Mr. BELIN. Well, I hand you what has been marked as Waldman Deposition
Exhibit No. 4 and ask you to state if you know what this is.
Mr. WALDMAN. This is the record created by us showing the control number
we have assigned to the gun together with the serial number that is imprinted in
the frame of the gun.
Mr. BELIN. Now, this is a photostat, I believe, of records you have in
front of you on your desk right now?
Mr. WALDMAN. That's correct.
Mr. BELIN. Do you find anywhere on Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 4 the
serial number C--2766?
Mr. WALDMAN. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. And what is your control number for that?
Mr. WALDMAN. Our control number for that is VC-836.
Mr. BELIN. Now, I'm going to hand you what has been marked as Waldman
Deposition Exhibit No. 5 and ask you to state if you know what this is.
Mr. WALDMAN. This is an invoice rendered us by Crescent Firearms on their
date February 7, 1963, for one hundred each 6.5 Italian rifles.
Mr. BELIN. Is there, anything on that invoice that shows how the rifles
were shipped to you?
Mr. WALDMAN. It's indicated as having been shipped by the North Penn
Transfer-Lifschultz and that there were 10 cases or cartons.
Mr. BELIN. Does it show whether or not this invoice was paid?
Mr. WALDMAN. It shows that payment was made on March 4, 1963.
Mr. BELIN. Mr. Waldman, were you ever contacted
by any law enforcement agency about the disposition of this Mannlicher-Carcano
rifle that had the serial number C-2766 on it?
Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; on the night of November 22, 1963, the FBI contacted
our company in an effort to determine whether the gun had been in our possession
and, if so, what disposition we had made of it.
Mr. BELIN. Do you know how the FBI happened to
contact you or your company?
Mr. WALDMAN. The FBI had a record of a gun of this type and with this
serial number having been shipped to us by Crescent Firearms.
Mr. BELIN. Do you mean that Crescent Firearms gave the FBI this
information?
Mr. WALDMAN. Well, I--I must assume that's the case. I don't know it for
a fact.
Mr. BELIN. All right. What
did you and your company do when you were contacted by the FBI?
Mr. WALDMAN. We met with the FBI in our offices.
Mr. BELIN. Was this on Friday evening, November 22?
Mr. WALDMAN. On Friday evening, November 22.
Mr. BELIN. Did the FBI indicate at what time,
what period that they felt you might have received this rifle originally?
Mr. WALDMAN. We were able to determine from our purchase records the date
in which the rifle had been received, and they also had a record of when it had
364
Page 365
been
shipped, so we knew the approximate date of receipt by us, and from that we
made---let's see, we examined our microfilm records which show orders from mail
order customers and related papers, and from this determined to whom the gun had
been shipped by us.
Mr. BELIN. Are these microfilm records part of your customary recording
of transactions of your company?
Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; they are.
Mr. BELIN. I'm handing you what has been marked as an FBI Exhibit D-77
and ask you if you know what this is.
Mr. WALDMAN. This is a microfilm record that---of mail order transactions
for a given period of time. It was turned over by us to the FBI.
Mr. BELIN. Do you know when it was turned over to the FBI?
Mr. WALDMAN. It was turned over to them on November 23, 1963.
Mr. BELIN. Now, you are reading from the carton containing that
microfilm. Do you know whose initials are on there?
Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; the initials on here are mine and they were put on the
date on which this was turned over to the FBI concerned with the investigation.
Mr. BELIN. You have on your premises a machine for looking at the
microfilm prints?
Mr. WALDMAN. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. And you can make copies of the microfilm prints?
Mr. WALDMAN. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. I wonder if we can adjourn the deposition upstairs to take a
look at these records in the microfilm and get copies of the appropriate records
that you found on the evening of November 22.
Mr. WALDMAN. Yes.
(Whereupon, the following proceedings were had at the microfilm machine.)
Mr. BELIN. Mr. Waldman, you
have just put the microfilm which we call D-77 into your viewer which is marked
a Microfilm Reader-Printer, and you have identified this as No. 270502,
according to your records. Is this just a record number of yours on this
particular shipment?
Mr. WALDMAN. That's a number which we assign for identification purposes.
Mr. BELIN. And on the
microfilm record, would you please state who it shows this particular rifle was
shipped
Mr. WALDMAN. Shipped to a Mr. A.--last name H-i-d-e-l-l, Post Office
Mr. BELIN. And does it show arts' serial number
or control number?
Mr. WALDMAN. It shows shipment of a rifle bearing our control number
VC-836 and serial number C-2766.
Mr. BELIN. Is there a price shown for that?
Mr. WALDMAN. Price is $19.95, plus $1.50 postage and handling, or a total
of $21.45.
Mr. BELIN. Now, I see another
number off to the left. What is this number?
Mr. WALDMAN. The number that you referred to, C20-T750 is a catalog
number.
Mr. BELIN. And after that, there appears some words of identification or
description. Can you state what that is?
Mr. WALDMAN. The number designates an item which we sell, namely, an
Italian carbine, 6.5 caliber rifle with the 4X scope.
Mr. BELIN. Is there a date of shipment which appears on this microfilm
record?
Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; the date of shipment was March 20, 1963.
Mr. BELIN. Does it show by what means it was shipped?
Mr. WALDMAN. It was shipped by parcel post as indicated by this circle
around the letters "PP."
Mr. BELIN. Does it show if any amount was enclosed with the order itself?
Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; the amount that was enclosed with the order was $21.45,
as designated on the right-hand side of this order blank here.
Mr. BELIN. Opposite the words "total amount enclosed"?
Mr. WALDMAN. Yes.
365
Page 366
Mr. BELIN. Is there anything which indicates in what form you received
the money?
Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; below the amount is shown the letters "MO"
designating money order.
Mr. BELIN. Now, I see the extreme top of this microfilm, the date, March
13, 1963; to what does that refer?
Mr. WALDMAN. This is an imprint made by our cash register indicating that
the remittance received from the customer was passed through our
register on that date.
Mr. BELIN. And to the right
of that, I see $21.45. Is that
correct?
Mr. WALDMAN. That's correct.
Mr. BELIN. Is there any other record that you have in connection with the
shipment of this rifle other than the particular microfilm negative frame that
we are looking at right now?
Mr. WALDMAN. We have a--this microfilm record of a coupon clipped from a
portion of one of our advertisements, which indicates by writing of the customer
on the coupon that he ordered our catalog No. C20-T750; and he has shown the
price of the item, $19.95, and gives as his name A. Hidell, and his address as
Post Office Box 2915, in Dallas, Tex.
Mr. BELIN. Anything else on that negative microfilm frame?
Mr. WALDMAN. The coupon overlays the envelope in which the order was
mailed and this shows in the upper left-hand corner .the return address of A.
Hidell, Post Office Box 2915, in Dallas, Tex.
There is a postmark of
Mr. BELIN. Can you see the actual cancelled stamp in the upper right-hand
corner?
Mr. WALDMAN. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. And the stamp itself says "
Mr. WALDMAN. That's correct.
Mr. BELIN. And underneath
that, someone has written "airmail"; is that correct?
Mr. WALDMAN. That's true.
Mr. BELIN. And someone has
written it addressed to you; is that correct?
Mr. WALDMAN. That's right.
Mr. BELIN. And is it possible on this machine to make prints of these
negatives?
(Whereupon, it was attempted to make copies of said documents.)
Mr. BELIN. I think the record
should show that all of this testimony has been taken upstairs with the court
reporter present in front of the actual microfilm machine itself; is that
correct?
Mr. WALDMAN. That's correct.
Mr. BELIN. Now, let us
adjourn to your office and continue the taking of this testimony, please.
(Whereupon, the following proceedings were had at the office where the
deposition originally commenced)
Mr. BELIN. Mr. Waldman, I'm
going to mark what has FBI Exhibit D-77 on it as Waldman Deposition Exhibit No.
6, being the container with your initials and the microfilm record itself, which
you placed on the microfilm reader and about which you have just testified
upstairs.
Now, I'm going to hand you what has been marked as Waldman Deposition
Exhibit No. 7 and ask you to state if you know what this is.
Mr. WALDMAN. This is a cops made from our microfilm reader-printer of
Mr. BELIN. This Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7 is a print from the
micro- film negative which we just viewed upstairs; is that correct?
Mr. WALDMAN. That's correct.
Mr. BELIN. And Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 8 is also a print from the
366
Page 367
microfilm record we
viewed upstairs showing the actual coupon and the envelope in which the coupon
was enclosed; is that correct?
Mr. WALDMAN. That's correct.
Mr. BELIN. And do you have any general
advertising program whereby you advertise in gun magazines?
Mr. WALDMAN. We do.
Mr. BELIN. Can you just give us one or more of the magazines in which
this coupon might have been taken?
Mr. WALDMAN. Well, this coupon was specifically taken from American
Rifleman Magazine, issue of February 1963. It's identified by the department
number which is shown as--now, if I can read this--shown as Department 358 on
the coupon.
Mr. BELIN. And that number also appears in the address on the envelope to
you, is that correct, or to your company?
Mr. WALDMAN. That's correct.
Mr. BELIN. Now, I believe that you said the total amount was $19.95, plus
$1.50 for shipping charges, or $21.45; is that correct?
Mr. WALDMAN. The $1.50 is for both shipping charges and handling.
Mr. BELIN. I hand you what has been marked as Commission Exhibit No. 788,
which appears to be a U.S. postal money order payable to the order of Klein's
Sporting Goods, and marked that it's from a purchaser named A. Hidell, and as
the purchaser's street address is Post Office Box No. 2915, and the purchaser's
City, Dallas, Tex.; March 12, 1963: and underneath the amount of $21.45, the
number 2,202,130,462. And on the
reverse side there appears to be an endorsement of a bank.
I wonder if you would read that endorsement, if you would, and examine
it, please.
Mr. WALDMAN. This is a stamped endorsement reading "Pay to the order
of the First National Bank of Chicago," followed by our account No. 50
space 91144, and that, in turn, followed by "Klein's Sporting Goods,
Inc."
Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether or not that is your company's endorsement
on that money order?
Mr. WALDMAN. It's identical to our endorsement.
Mr. BELIN. And I hand you what has been marked as Waldman Deposition
Exhibit No. 9 and ask you if you can state what this is.
Mr. WALDMAN. This is our endorsement stamp which reads the same as that
shown on the money order in question.
Mr. BELIN. You have just now stamped Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 9
with your endorsement stamp?
Mr. WALDMAN. Correct.
Mr. BELIN. Do you have any way of knowing when exactly this money order
was deposited by your company?
Mr. WALDMAN. I cannot specifically say when this money order was
deposited by our company; however, as previously stated, a money order for
$21.45 passed through our cash register on March 13, 1963.
Mr. BELIN. You're reading from Waldman---
Mr. WALDMAN. From a Mr. A. Hidell of Post Office Box No. 2915, from
Mr. BELIN. And you are now reading from Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7?
Mr. WALDMAN. As indicated on Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7.
Now, we cannot specifically say when this money order was deposited, but
on our deposit of March 13, 1963, we show an item of $21.45, as indicated on the
Xerox copy of our deposit slip marked, or identified by--as Waldman Deposition
Exhibit No. 10.
Mr. BELIN. And I have just marked as a document what you are reading
from, which appears to be a deposit with the First National Bank of
Mr. WALDMAN. That's correct.
Mr. BELIN. And on that deposit, one of the items is $21.45, out of a
total deposit that day of $13,827.98; is that correct?
367
Page 368
Mr. WALDMAN. That's correct.
Mr. BELIN. Now, when we examined. Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 1, had a
control number of which the last four numbers were T749, and when you shipped
the rifle, you had the control number with the last four numbers as T750;
otherwise the control number is the same. Could you tell us what accounts for
the difference?
Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; these numbers that you
referred to are not control numbers, as previously stated. These are known as
catalog numbers. The number C20-T749 describes a rifle only, whereas the catalog
No. C20-T750 describes the Italian carbine rifle with a four-power scope, which
is sold as a package unit.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what the rifle would have cost without the
scope?
Mr. WALDMAN. As I recall, it was either $12.78 or $12.95.
Mr. BELIN. Would the advertisement run in the Rifleman's Magazine of
February 1963, have given the purchaser the option to buy with or without the if
you remember?
Mr. WALDMAN. Without specific reference to the ad, I would say that it
Most usually we did.
Mr. BELIN. And the purchaser would signify his preference in what manner?
Mr. WALDMAN. The customer designates whether he wants the rifle only or
whether he wants the rifle with the scope by his selection of catalog numbers.
Mr. BELIN. When this rifle came to your company,
was the scope already mounted on it when you got it from Crescent?
Mr. WALDMAN. No.
Mr. BELIN. Who put the scope on the rifle?
Mr. WALDMAN. The scope was mounted on the rifle in our gun ,shop, most
probably by a gunsmith named William Sharp.
Mr. BELIN. Would Mr. Sharp drill whatever holes were necessary for the
mounting and do the actual mounting then himself?
Mr. WALDMAN. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Would Mr. Sharp or anyone else in your company in any way
sight in the sight, whether it would be boresighting or actual firing with the
sight?
Mr. WALDMAN. No; it's very unlikely in an inexpensive rifle of this sort
that he would do anything other than roughly aline the scope with the rifle.
Mr. BELIN. Do you have any records which show where you purchased the
scope?
Mr. WALDMAN. It's reasonably certain the scope was purchased from Martin
B. Retting, Inc.,
Mr. BELIN. Would it have any identification on the scope itself, if you
know?
Mr. WALDMAN. It's most probable it carried the name "Ordnance
Optics."
Mr. BELIN. Now, Mr. Waldman, perhaps we'd better further identify the
microfilm which show your control numbers. We marked the microfilm as Waldman
Deposition Exhibit No. 6. Do you
have any control numbers on this at all which indicate which microfilm this is?
Mr. WALDMAN. This is our film No. 38, which covers our transactions Nos.
269688 through 270596.
Mr. BELIN. And I believe that you already testified to the control number
or transaction number that appears on Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7 as being
number what?
Mr. WALDMAN. 270502.
Mr. BELIN. Mr. Waldman,
referring to Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 3, which are the serial numbers of
the 100 rifles which were made in this shipment from Crescent Firearms to you,
and Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 5, which is the invoice from Crescent
Firearms which has stamped on it that it was paid by your company on March 4, is
there any way to verify that this payment pertained to rifles which are shown on
Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 3?
Mr. WALDMAN. The forms submitted by Crescent Firearms showing serial
numbers of rifles included in the shipment covered by their invoice No. 3178
indicate that the rifle carrying serial No. C-2766 was included in that
shipment.
Mr. BELIN. Now, those
forms----
368
Page 369
Mr. WALDMAN. Those forms are your exhibit captioned Waldman Deposition
Exhibit No. 3. Now, our payment
voucher No. 28966 of March 1, 1963, which is your Waldman Deposition Exhibit No.
5 shows in the lower portion, second column from the left, the number 3178,
which ties in with Crescent Firearms invoice No. 3178.
Mr. BELIN. And you have before you a carbon copy of a check that was
written by your company to Crescent Firearms in the amount of $850, and attached
to it, the attachment that shows it's for invoice No. 3178?
Mr. WALDMAN. That's correct.
Mr. BELIN. Mr. Waldman, do
your records show whether or not the rifle was shipped with the scope mounted on
it or is there any way that you know whether or not it was?
Mr. WALDMAN. Our catalog No. C20-T750, which was
the number indicated on the coupon prepared by A. Hidell, designates a rifle
with scope attached. And we would
have so shipped it unless the customer specifically specified that he did not
wish to have it attached. There is
nothing in our records to indicate that there was any request made by the
customer, and therefore we would have every reason to believe that it was
shipped as a rifle with scope-mounted.
Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether or not the rifle would have been broken
down in shipment or whether or not it would have been shipped fully assembled?
Mr. WALDMAN. It was customary
for us to ship all of these rifles and scopes fully assembled, and I would have
no reason to believe that this particular one would have been shipped otherwise.
Mr. BELIN. And do you know in what kind of a container it would have been
shipped?
Mr. WALDMAN. It was customary for us to ship these rifles with scopes
attached in a corrugated cardboard carton made for us by the Rudd Container
Corporation of
Mr. BELIN. About how long
would that carton be in size, if you know?
Mr. WALDMAN. Approximately 60 inches.
Mr. BELIN. Did you ever furnish any samples of this carton or any
wrapping paper or tape to the FBI?
Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; we did furnish a sample of the carton together with the
type of sealing tape that was generally used and such craft paper that may have
been used for inner cushioning packing.
Mr. BELIN. Mr. Waldman, when we testified upstairs in front of the
microfilm machine, was the microfilm itself more clear or less clear than the
photostats or prints that have been made from it?
Mr. WALDMAN. More clear.
Mr. BELIN. So it would be possible to read items on the microfilm itself
that might not come out clear on the printed copies?
Mr. WALDMAN. That's correct.
Mr. BELIN. Mr. Waldman, the President's Commission on the Assassination
of President Kennedy appreciates all the cooperation which your company, and in
particular you, have given to this situation. And we know that it's not a happy
situation to you, and that the gun could have been purchased anywhere. As it
happens, this particular gun was purchased with your company, and we want to
thank you very much for your cooperation.
Mr. WALDMAN. Thank you.
Mr. BELIN. Do you want to see the deposition before you sign it?
Mr. Waldman, you have the right to read the deposition and sign it before
anything further is done with it, or you can waive the signing of it, whatever
you like.
Mr. WALDMAN. It would be well for me to read this because of the
possibility of a transposition of numbers or other errors in the recording.
Mr. BELIN. All right. (To
reporter.) Perhaps you can keep the
original copy here, if you would, and give it to Mr. Waldman and mail the other
copies directly to us in Washington, and then could you make whatever
corrections there are and send it directly to us in Washington, and I'll give
you my name if you would mail it to my attention.
369
Mitchell J. Scibor
Page 370
TESTIMONY OF MITCHELL
J. SCIBOR
The testimony of Mitchell J. Scibor was taken on May, 20, 1964, at
Mitchell J. Scibor, called as a witness herein, having been first duly
sworn, was examined and testified as follows:
Mr. BELIN. Would you please
state your name for the record?
Mr. SCIBOR. Mitchell J.
Scibor.
Mr. BELIN. And where do you live?
Mr. SCIBOR.
Mr. BELIN. What is your occupation?
Mr. SCIBOR. Employed by Klein's Sporting Goods.
Mr. BELIN. In what capacity?
Mr. SCIBOR. General operating manager.
Mr. BELIN. Were you so employed on or about November 22, 1963?
Mr. SCIBOR. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Were you at any time on that date
contacted by any law enforcement agency with regard to a particular rifle,
Serial No. C-2766?
Mr. SCIBOR. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. And could you tell us the circumstances surrounding this?
Mr. SCIBOR. I got a call Friday evening, November 22, asking if it would
be possible to get at the records---at our records to see if that gun had been
in our possession or sold by us. I got permission from one of the executives to
open the store and view our records, and I came down here somewhere between 10
and 11 o'clock.
Mr. BELIN. And what did you do when you got down here?
Mr. SCIBOR. We went in with the Government men and--just before we went
in, Mr. Waldman came down and we came in and he took over as far as getting--
trying to find the information that we needed.
Mr. BELIN. How did you try to find that information?
Mr. SCIBOR. By looking in our microfilm records of sales of merchandise
for that particular gun.
The FBI furnished us with information stating that we had received the
gun from Crescent Firearms.
Mr. BELIN. Well, did you look at the microfilms of your purchasers or
your sales or what?
Mr. SCIBOR. Yes; we used two machines and looked at the microfilms of our
sales until we had found that particular gun with the serial number.
Mr. BELIN. You were upstairs when Mr. Waldman was looking at the
microfilm of which a printed copy is Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7; is that
correct?
Mr. SCIBOR. Correct.
Mr. BELIN. And on Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7, there is a Serial No
C-2766?
Mr. SCIBOR. Correct.
Mr. BELIN. Was this serial number on Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7 the
first contact you had on Friday evening that led you to believe that you had
shipped this particular rifle?
Mr. SCIBOR. That's correct.
Mr. BELIN. When did you discover or find out this information, if you
know--strike the question.
I believe you said you got down here about 10 o'clock that night?
Mr. SCIBOR. Between 10 and 11.
Mr. BELIN. And then you started going through
your microfilm records?
Mr. SCIBOR. Right.
Mr. BELIN. About when did you actually find the microfilm of which
Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7 is a print?
Mr. SCIBOR. About 4 o'clock in the roaming, as far as I can remember.
Mr. BELIN. You then turned this information over to the FBI?
Mr. SCIBOR. Mr. Waldman did.
370
Page 371
Mr. BELIN. Now, I'm going to hand you what has been marked as Waldman
Deposition Exhibit No. 4 and ask you to state if you know what this is.
Mr. SCIBOR. Yes; it's a copy of our receiving record which we use to
identify firearms or guns by assigning a weapon a particular booking number or
control number along with the serial number so at a future date we can identify
that particular gun.
Mr. BELIN. Have you ever seen Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7 before?
Mr. SCIBOR. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. I notice the date and the notations in the upper lefthand
corner, RR-1243; underneath that, the date 2-22-63.
Do you know what that has reference to?
Mr. SCIBOR. Yes; the "RR" stands for receiving record No. 1243,
and that merchandise was booked or actually received by our receiving-department
on 2-22-63.
Mr. BELIN. Does it show from whom it was received?
Mr. SCIBOR. Yes; Crescent Firearms.
Mr. BELIN. And underneath the "Crescent Firearms," what does it
say?
Mr. SCIBOR. Italian Carcano T38, 6.5 Italian caliber rifle.
Mr. BELIN. Now, there are some notations in the upper righthand corner,
what does that have reference to?
Mr. SCIBOR. Those are
notations strictly for the receiving department.
I have the men back there keep these in rotation so that I can always
fill--in the same rotation as they come out of.
Mr. BELIN. And did you do any of that writing at all?
Mr. SCIBOR. No.
Mr. BELIN. What is the fact as to whether or not these serial numbers are
assigned by people under your supervision?
Mr. SCIBOR. Repeat that.
Mr. BELIN. Well, do you have any supervision or control over the people
making the entries on the serial numbers and your control numbers?
Mr. SCIBOR. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. I don't believe we went into your background, general
background. You might state where you were born and what educational background
you have, for the record.
Mr. SCIBOR. I was born in
Mr. BELIN. You're married?
Mr. SCIBOR. I have been with
Klein's for 18 years.
Mr. BELIN. You have been with Klein's for 18----
Mr. SCIBOR. Approximately 18
years.
Mr. BELIN. And you're
married?
Mr. SCIBOR. Married and two children.
Mr. BELIN. Where is Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 4 filed customarily?
Mr. SCIBOR. That is filed in a ,desk drawer back in the receiving
department, which I designated that those should be filed.
Mr. BELIN. Do you have any
master control ledger or book of any kind that has these control numbers on
them?
Mr. SCIBOR. Yes. One copy is sent to what we call the booking department,
and those are put into a master book, control book.
Mr. BELIN. Are you required by law to keep records of serial numbers of
guns?
Mr. SCIBOR. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. And do you find on Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 4 your
control number for a rifle with the serial number C-2766?
Mr. SCIBOR. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. What is your control number?
Mr. SCIBOR. VC-836.
Mr. BELIN. How are these serial numbers obtained for placement on Waldman
Deposition Exhibit No. 4?
Mr. SCIBOR. Directly off the guns.
Mr. BELIN. Does someone actually look at the gun?
Mr. SCIBOR. Yes; someone looks; visually they are taken off the guns.
371
Page 372
Mr. BELIN. We want to thank
you very much, sir, for your cooperation in helping obtaining this information.
Heinz W. Michaelis
Page 372
TESTIMONY OF HEINZ W.
MICHAELIS