|
|
Thursday,
March 12, 1964 TESTIMONY
OF WILLIAM WAYNE WHALEY AND CECIL J. McWATTERS
The President's Commission met at 9:20 a.m. on March 12, 1964, 200
Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Senator John Cooper and
Representative Gerald R. Ford, members.
Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; Joseph A. Ball,
assistant counsel; David W. Belin, assistant counsel; Melvin Aron Eisenberg,
assistant counsel; Lewis F. Powell, Jr. and Charles Murray, observers. William
Wayne Whaley Page
253 TESTIMONY
OF WILLIAM WAYNE WHALEY
The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Whaley, the purpose of our meeting today is to take
some further testimony concerning the events surrounding the assassination of
President Kennedy, and we understand you have some facts that will bear on it in
a way and we would like to ask you questions concerning it.
Will you rise, please, raise your right hand to be sworn?
Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but
the truth, so help you God?
Mr. WHALEY. I do, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. Will you be seated, please? Mr. Ball will conduct the
examination.
Mr. BALL. Mr. Whaley, what is your business?
Mr. WHALEY. I am a taxi driver, sir.
Mr. BALL. How long have you been a taxi driver?
Mr. WHALEY. 37 years.
Mr. BALL. You worked all that time in
Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What is your residence?
Mr. WHALEY.
Mr. BALL. But you drive a taxicab in
Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Whom do you work for?
Mr. WHALEY. City Transportation Company.
Mr. BALL. You are an employee of theirs, are you?
Mr. WHALEY. Yes.
Mr. BALL. You don't own your own cab?
Mr. WHALEY. No, sir; they don't allow that in that city.
Mr. BALL. How long have you worked for that company?
Mr. WHALEY. 37 years. Not for that company, sir, but for the original
owners, it started out. I have been in with that original company but all banded
together in one cab company.
Mr. BALL. Were you on duty on the 22d of November 1963?
Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What were your hours that day at work?
Mr. WHALEY. Well, my hours run from 6 to 4, sir; 6 in the morning to 4 in
the afternoon.
253 Page
254
Mr. BALL. What kind of a cab were you driving on that day?
Mr. WHALEY. A 1961 Checker.
Mr. BALL. Was it equipped with radio equipment?
Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. You can call in to your dispatcher?
Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; I can.
Mr. BALL. By a two-way radio?
Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Do you operate on cab stands or do you cruise?
Mr. WHALEY. No, sir; you just go out in the morning and wherever they
send you you go to work and wherever you unload you check in they give you
another call like that.
Mr. BALL. About 12:30 that day where were you?
Mr. WHALEY. Well, about 12:30 as you say, sir; I was at the Greyhound bus
station. I have a copy of my trip sheet here.
Mr. BALL. Could I see that, please?
Mr. WHALEY. The FBI took the original and the pictures of the cab and
everything.
Mr. BALL. That is what I have been waiting for.
Mr. WHALEY. I think it is supposed to be delivered to you, sir.
Mr. BALL. That is right. I am glad you have that copy.
Mr. WHALEY. I thought maybe you might need it. You look down there it
says Greyhound, 500 North
Mr. BALL. I am going to let you use this manifest to refresh your memory,
Mr. Whaley. I have seen it. I am going to ask you some questions and you refresh
your memory if you will from the manifest.
First of all, describe the document you are using, what is that?
Mr. WHALEY. It is a trip sheet manifest. The company gets the amount of
money you have run, your meter reading and all, and they have to keep it because
of the city ordinance requirement that the taxis make this kind of manifest.
Mr. BALL. Tell me when you make the entries, you make the entries when?
Mr. WHALEY. Sometimes I make them right after I make the trips, sir, and
sometimes I make three or four trips before I make the entries.
Mr. BALL. Are you required by your employer to describe the trip, where
you went, how far it was?
Mr. WHALEY. Not by the employer, sir. All the employers are interested in
are the meter reading and your tolls. The city of
Mr. BALL. Now, the manifest does contain that information, though, does
it?
Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; it does.
Mr. BALL. Will you describe the different columns of the manifest, that
information that is in each column generally?
Mr. WHALEY. Over on the left side, where you see call or pickup, if you
get the call on your radio you mark with a "C" and if somebody hails
you on the street that is marked "P" for pickup.
In the next column it has the trip numbers from one to fifty.
Mr. BALL. The number of the trips you make that day?
Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. In the third column it says "from." Like
this first one, 4924
The next column is the "meter reading," what the meter said,
$1.75. The next column says "flat rate." If it had been an extra
passenger or so and you had a flat rate you would put it in that column.
The third column is "charge," the people who have the charge
accounts through the company in the car, you put the meter reading in there
because you don't get cash and you put charge, the company takes it off.
The next column says the number of passengers and that first trip was
four
254 Page
255 passengers,
time out six o'clock, I got that trip out of the barn and it is marked
"call."
6:20 is "time in." "Mileage in" was 44. Now, see I
didn't put the mileage out on the first one, the mileage out is up here, 35 to
44. It would have been nine miles I made on the first trip.
Over here on the side here, it has the number of trips I made that day
which is 21, on the meter registered 21 trips 45 cents a trip is $9.45 157
units, a unit is a dime clicks every four-tenths of a mile. That would be 157
units at $15.70. Added total of $25.15. I used 5 1/2 gallons of gas, had eight
pickups in 13 calls and 29 passengers. That is it complete, sir.
Mr. BALL. I see.
Now, look at your manifest and tell me where you were at 12 o'clock the
day of November 22, 1963.
Mr. WHALEY. 12 o'clock I got a call to the
Mr. BALL. Then where did you go at 12:15 according to you record?
Mr. WHALEY. According to my record I got a pickup at the Continental bus
station which is stand 16 and went to the Greyhound
which is 55 cents. I unloaded at the Greyhound, I have got it marked 12:30. See
there is that 15 minutes you say I am off, I just mark it 15, I don't put the
correct time on the sheet because they don't require it, sir, but anywhere
approximate.
Mr. BALL. In other words, it took you about 15 minutes to go--
Mr. WHALEY. It actually took about nine minutes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And you put the trip ending Greyhound around 12:30?
Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. You remember that trip, do you, you remember the fact that you
took the trip to the Greyhound and parked your car at the Greyhound or your cab
at the Greyhound, don't you?
Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; I remember it.
Mr. BALL. Were you standing at the Greyhound, at your cab stand at the
Greyhound, long before you picked up another passenger?
Mr. WHALEY. No, sir, there was no one at the Greyhound stand and when I
unloaded at the door I just pulled up about 30 feet to the stand and stopped and
then I wanted a package of cigarettes, I was out so I started to get out and I
saw this passenger coming so I waited for him.
Mr. BALL. He was coming down the street?
Mr. WHALEY. He was walking down the street.
Mr. BALL. What street was he walking down?
Mr. WHALEY. Lamar.
Mr. BALL. Would that mean he was walking south on Lamar?
Mr. WHALEY. He was walking south on Lamar from Commerce when I saw him.
Mr. BALL. That would be on which side of the street?
Mr. WHALEY. The west side of the street.
Mr. BALL. South on Lamar?
Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL Did you notice how he was dressed?
Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. I didn't pay much attention to it right then. But
it all came back when I really found out who I had. He was dressed in just
ordinary work clothes. It wasn't khaki pants but they were khaki material, blue
faded blue color, like a blue uniform made in khaki. Then he had on a brown
shirt with a little silverlike stripe on it and he had on some kind of jacket, I
didn't notice very close but I think it was a work jacket that almost matched
the pants.
He, his shirt was open three buttons down here. He had on a T-shirt. You
know, the shirt was open three buttons down there.
Mr. BALL. Now, what happened after that, will you tell us in your own
words what he did?
Mr. WHALEY. Well, on this which was the 14th trip when I picked up at the
Greyhound I marked it 12:30 to 12:45.
Mr. BALL. You say that can be off 15 minutes?
255 Page
256
Mr. WHALEY. That can be off either direction.
Mr. BALL. Anything up to 15 minutes, you say?
Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; I wrote that trip up the same time I wrote the one
up from the Continental bus station to the Greyhound, I marked this 12:15 to
12:30 and started 12:30 to 12:45. And the next one starts at 1:15 to 1:30 and it
goes on all day long every 15 minutes the time keeps pretty approximate.
Mr. BALL. Let's take the 12:30 trip, tell me
about that, what the passenger said.
Mr. WHALEY. He said, "May I have the cab?"
I said, "You sure can. Get in." And instead of opening the back
door he opened the front door, which is allowable there, and got in.
Mr. BALL. Got in the front door?
Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. The front seat. And about that time an old lady, I
think she was an old lady, I don't remember nothing but her sticking her head
down past him in the door and said, "Driver, will you call me a cab down
here?"
She had seen him get this cab and she wanted one, too, and he opened the
door a little bit like he was going to get out and he said, "I will let you
have this one," and she says, "No, the driver can call me one."
So, I didn't call one because I knew before I could call one would come
around the block and keep it pretty well covered.
Mr. BALL. Is that what you said?
Mr. WHALEY No, sir; that is not what I said, but that is the reason I
didn't call one at the time and I asked him where he wanted to go. And he said,
"500 North
Well, I started up, I started to that address, and the police cars, the
sirens was going, running crisscrossing everywhere, just a big uproar in that
end of town and I said, "What the hell. I wonder what the hell is the
uproar?"
And he never said anything. So I figured he was one of these people that
don't like to talk so I never said any more to him.
But when I got pretty close to 500 block at
Neches and North Beckley which is the 500 block, he said, "This will do
fine," and I pulled over to the curb right there. He gave me a dollar bill,
the trip was 95 cents. He gave me a dollar bill and didn't say anything, just
got out and closed the door and walked around the front of the cab over to the
other side of the street. Of course, traffic was moving through there and I put
it in gear and moved on, that is the last I saw of him.
Mr. BALL. When you parked your car you parked on
what street?
Mr. WHALEY. I wasn't parked, I was pulled to the curb on Neches and
Mr. BALL. Neches, corner of Neches and
Mr. WHALEY. Which is the 500 block.
Mr. BALL. What direction was your car?
Mr. WHALEY. South.
Mr. BALL. The cab was headed?
Mr. WHALEY. South.
Mr. BALL. And it would be on the west side of the street?
Mr. WHALEY. Parked, stopped on the west side of the intersection, yes,
sir.
Mr. BALL. When he got out of the tab did he go around in front of your
tab?
Mr. WHALEY. He went around in front, yes, sir; crossed the street.
Mr. BALL. Across to the east side of the street?
Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you see whether he walked south?
Mr. WHALEY. I didn't see whether he walked north or south from there.
Mr. BALL. In other words, he walked east from your cab and that is the
last time you saw him?
Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Was there anything in particular about him beside his clothing
that you could identify such as jewelry, bracelets?
Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; he had on a bracelet of some type on his left arm.
It looked like an identification bracelet. Just shiny, you know, how you see
256 Page
257 anything
shiny, an unusual watchband or something shiny, you notice things like that.
Mr. BALL. I have a map of
The CHAIRMAN. It will be so marked.
(The map referred to was marked Commission's Exhibit No. 371 for
identification.)
Mr. BALL. I would like to offer into evidence Exhibits Nos. 368 and 369
that were marked yesterday.
The CHAIRMAN. They may be admitted.
(Commission Exhibits Nos. 368 and 369, heretofore marked for
identification, were received in evidence.)
Mr. BALL. And 371 being a form map of
The CHAIRMAN. That may be done.
(Commission Exhibit No. 371, heretofore marked for identification was
received in evidence.)
Mr. BALL. There is a map here which is described as Dallas street map,
Republic National Bank of
Will you point on the map there to the Greyhound bus station?
Let's take the small map. It was on the corner of
Mr. WHALEY. And Lamar.
Mr. BALL. And Lamar.
Mr. WHALEY. The northwest corner, Greyhound bus station.
Mr. BALL. You have seen this map before, have you not?
Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; I am very familiar with that map.
Mr. BALL. And let's take Lamar, here is
Mr. WHALEY. Lamar is down here, sir.
Mr. BALL. This is
Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Here is
Mr. WHALEY. Well, the Greyhound bus station is on the northwest corner.
Mr. BALL. Suppose we make an "X" there at
Mr. WHALEY. All right, sir.
Mr. BALL. And Lamar. That is where you picked your passenger up?
Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. When you started out which direction did you go, and before you
mark just take this blunt end and then we will mark it after you describe it on
the map.
Now, the next street is
Mr. WHALEY. That is right.
Mr. BALL. All right.
Mr. WHALEY. I turned to the left.
Mr. BALL. All right.
Mr. WHALEY. I turned to the left off Lamar onto
Now, the reason for that is if you catch this light right at Lamar and
Jackson, this other light turns green as you make your turn here and the other
one turns green as you make your turn at Wood. You just move through traffic.
That was my reason for making the turn.
Then I turned left on Wood off
Mr. BALL. You call that the
Mr. WHALEY. Yes.
(At this point Representative Ford entered the hearing room.)
Mr. WHALEY. Went across the viaduct to Zangs, as soon as you get across
the angle to the left, that is
Mr. BALL. Take the black pen and draw your course along this small map as
far as you can go and we will go to the continuation of the map.
Now, can you tell us--did everybody see this course--now can you tell us
257 Page
258 where
you were when the sirens were blowing and you saw police cars all around?
Mr. WHALEY. I was still at the Greyhound, sir.
Mr. BALL. You were still there?
Mr. WHALEY. They were there when I loaded.
Mr. BALL. Now, in the course of your travel down to the
Mr. WHALEY. Oh, yes, sir; lots of them, what we call triangle,
three-wheeled motorcycle, they all seemed to be converging on one spot.
Mr. BALL. What spot?
Mr. WHALEY. Well, it seemed to be the courthouse, that is what it seemed
to me at that time. I didn't know what had happened.
Mr. BALL. The courthouse is about a block from the
Mr. WHALEY. You could throw a baseball from one building to the other.
Mr. BALL. Now, we will turn to the large map and we will still use
the--get downtown. Here we are. Will you use Lamar and Jackson again.
Mr. WHALEY. This will be kind of ticklish because that is very small.
Mr. BALL. That is right.
Mr. WHALEY.
Mr. BALL. Do the same thing.
Mr. WHALEY. To Austin, to Wood, to Houston, to the viaduct, across the
viaduct, let's see, Colorado comes in off this, this is the Zangs Boulevard, the
red line where it hits Marcel is here, that is Zangs Boulevard. Up past
Mr. BALL. You are going along Zangs, will you go along--
Mr. WHALEY. I am trying to find Beckley, the green light changed from red
to green on Beckley, right here is an intersection; Zangs Boulevard goes on up,
and Beckley turns off.
Mr. BALL. Here is
Mr. WHALEY. Let me see where
This is the intersection right there.
Mr. BALL. We put an "X" there.
Mr. WHALEY. That is where he got off.
Mr. BALL. That is where you dropped your passenger, is that right?
Mr. WHALEY. That is--as far as I can see that is
Mr. BALL. That is Neches, that is
Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; that is right, because that is the 500 block of
Mr. BALL. Now, we will mark the beginning of your trip on the large map
as "Y", and where you dropped your passenger as an "X".
Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. "Y" is the corner of Lamar and Jackson, and
"X" is the corner of Neches and
Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. O.K.
Can you tell me what distance that was?
Mr. WHALEY. Well, it was 95 cents on the meter, the meter starts off at
45 cents, then it goes four-tenths of a mile and it clicks a dime which would be
55, then a dime every four-tenths of a mile after that and it was almost ready
to click a $1.05 when it stopped, so I imagine that would be 55 cents, would be
eight-tenths of a mile and then after the first 45 cents it runs 25 cents a
mile, because it gets a dime every four-tenths.
Mr. BALL. So you had 95 cents?
Mr. WHALEY. 65 cents would be three, four-tenths, would be 1 mile and
two-tenths. 75 would be one mile and six-tenths .85 would be one--would be 2
miles .95 would be 2 and four-tenths, almost ready to click.
Mr. BALL. What do you give them for 45 cents?
Mr. WHALEY. Four-tenths of a mile.
Mr. BALL. Four-tenths of a mile?
Mr. WHALEY. It goes four-tenths of a mile.
Mr. BALL. Five clicks after the first?
258 Page
259
Mr. WHALEY. 45 cents.
Mr. BALL. Well, then, you ran about--
Mr. WHALEY. About 2 1/2 miles, sir.
Mr. BALL. Two and one-half miles?
Mr. WHALEY. Approximately.
Mr. BALL. Two miles and four-tenths approximately.
Mr. WHALEY Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Can you give me any estimate of the time it took you to go that
2 1/2 miles?
Mr. WHALEY. Not actually, sir. I run it again
with the policeman because the policeman was worried, he run the same trip and
he couldn't come out the same time I did. But he was turning off of Jackson and
Lamar when the light was wrong, and he was hitting a red light at Wood--I mean
at Austin and Jackson and he hit a red light at Wood and Austin, then he hit a
red light at Houston. Where I wait to make my turn until the light is right just
after it has been green, almost ready for it to come red, turn right then, then
the other lights turn green just as fast as you get to them, go on right
through, you save about 2 minutes in traffic that way. That is where I got the 2
minutes on him he never could make up. So I had to go back with him to make that
trip to--to show him I was right.
Mr. BALL. How much time, in that experiment, when you hit the lights
right, how long did it take you?
Mr. WHALEY. Nine
minutes.
Mr. BALL. Nine minutes?
Mr. WHALEY. Nine minutes.
Representative FORD. Now on this particular trip with Oswald, do you
recall the lights being with you?
Mr. WHALEY. They were with me, sir; for I timed them that way before I
took off. Because I made that so much that I know the light system and how they
are going to turn.
Representative FORD. So this was a typical trip?
Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. The witness has been driving a taxicab in
Mr. WHALEY. Thirty-seven, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. Thirty-seven.
Mr. WHALEY. You name an intersection in the city
of
Mr. BALL. Did you stop and let your passenger out on this run on the
north or south side of the intersection?
Mr. WHALEY. On the north side, sir.
Mr BALL. North side?
Mr. WHALEY. Yes.
Mr. BALL. That would be--
Mr. WHALEY. Northwest corner.
Mr. BALL. Northwest corner of Neches and
Mr. WHALEY. Northwest corner of Neches and
Mr BALL. I have some clothing here. Commission Exhibit No. 150, does that
look like the shirt?
Mr. WHALEY. That is the shirt, sir, it has my initials on it.
Mr. BALL. In other words, this is the shirt the man had on?
Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; that is the same one the FBI man had me identify.
Mr. BALL. This is the shirt the man had on who took your car at Lamar and
Jackson?
Mr. WHALEY. As near as I can recollect as I told him. I said that is the
shirt he had on because it had a kind of little stripe in it, light-colored
stripe. I noticed that.
Mr. BALL. Here are two pair of pants, Commission Exhibit No. 157 and
Commission Exhibit No. 156. Does it look anything like that?
Mr. WHALEY. I don't think I can identify the pants except they were the
same color as that, sir.
Mr. BALL. Which color?
259 Page
260
Mr. WHALEY. More like this lighter color, at least they were cleaner or
something.
Mr. BALL. That is 157?
Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. But you are not sure about that?
Mr. WHALEY. I am not sure about the pants. I wouldn't be sure of the
shirt if it hadn't had that light stripe in it. I just noticed that.
Mr. BALL. Here is Commission No. 162 which is a gray jacket with zipper.
Mr. WHALEY. I thank that is the jacket he had on when he rode with me in
the cab.
Mr. BALL. Look something like it?
And here is Commission Exhibit No. 163, does this look like anything he
had on?
Mr. WHALEY. He had this one on or the other one.
Mr. BALL. That is right.
Mr. WHALEY. That is what I told you I noticed. I told you about the shirt
being open, he had on the two jackets with the open shirt.
Mr. BALL. Wait a minute, we have got the shirt which you have identified
as the rust brown shirt with the gold stripe in it.
Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. You said that a jacket--
Mr. WHALEY. That jacket now it might have been clean, but the jacket he
had on looked more the color, you know like a uniform set, but he had this coat
here on over that other jacket, I am sure, sir.
Mr. BALL. This is the blue-gray jacket, heavy blue-gray jacket.
Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Later that day did you--were you called down to the police
department?
Mr. WHALEY. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Were you the next day?
Mr. WHALEY. No, sir; they came and got me, sir, the next day after I told
my superior when I saw in the paper his picture, I told my superiors that that
had been my passenger that day at noon. They called up the police and they came
up and got me.
Mr. BALL. When you saw in the newspaper the picture of the man?
Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. You went to your superior and told him you thought he was your
passenger?
Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did the
Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Or FBI agents?
Mr. WHALEY. The
Mr. BALL. Before they brought you down did they show you a picture?
Mr. WHALEY. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. They didn't?
Mr. WHALEY. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. They brought you down to the
Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What did you do there?
Mr. WHALEY. Well, I tried to get by the reporters, stepping over
television cables and you couldn't hardly get by, they would grab you and wanted
to know what you were doing down here, even with the detectives one in front and
one behind you. Then they took me in an office there and I think Bill Alexander,
the Assistant District Attorney, two or three, I was introduced to two or three
who were FBI men and they wanted my deposition of what happened.
So, I told them to the best of my ability. Then
they took me down in their room where they have their show-ups, and all, and me
and this other taxi driver who was with me, sir, we sat in the room awhile and
directly they brought in six men, young teenagers, and they all were handcuffed
together. Well, they wanted me to pick out my passenger.
260 Page
261
At that time he had on a pair of black pants and white T-shirt, that is
all he had on. But you could have picked him out without identifying him by just
listening to him because he was bawling out the policeman, telling them it
wasn't right to put him in line with these teenagers and all of that and they
asked me which one and I told them. It was him all right, the same man.
Mr. BALL. They had him in line with men much younger?
Mr. WHALEY. With five others.
Mr. BALL. Men much younger?
Mr. WHALEY. Not much younger, but just young kids they might have got
them in jail.
Mr. BALL. Did he look older than those other boys?
Mr. WHALEY. Yes.
Mr. BALL. And he was talking, was he?
Mr. WHALEY. He showed no respect for the policemen, he told them what he
thought about them. They knew
what they were doing and they were trying to railroad him and he wanted his
lawyer.
Mr. BALL. Did that aid you in the identification of the man?
Mr. WHALEY. No, sir; it wouldn't have at all, except that I said anybody
who wasn't sure could have picked out the right one just for that. It didn't aid
me because I knew he was the right one as soon as I saw him.
Mr. BALL. You don't think that that in any way influenced your
identification?
Mr. WHALEY. No, sir; it did not. When you drive a taxi, sir, as long as I
have, you can almost look at a man, in fact, you have to, to be able to tell
whether you can trust or whether you can't trust him, what he is.
Now, like you got in my taxicab and I looked you over and you told me
just wait for me here and went in the building, well, I will have to know
whether I could just say, "OK, sir." Or say, "Will you leave me a
$5 bill, sir?"
When you drive a taxi that long you learn to judge people and what I
actually thought of the man when he got in was that he was a wino who had been
off his bottle for about two days, that is the way he looked, sir, that was my
opinion of him.
Mr. BALL. What was there about his appearance that gave you that
impression? Hair mussed?
Mr. WHALEY. Just the slow way he walked up. He didn't talk. He wasn't in
any hurry. He wasn't nervous or anything.
Mr. BALL. He didn't run?
Mr. WHALEY. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did he look dirty?
Mr. WHALEY. He looked like his clothes had been slept in, sir, but he
wasn't actually dirty. The T-shirt was a little soiled around the collar but the
bottom part of it was white. You have to know those winos, or they will get in
and ride with you and there isn't nothing you can do but call the police, the
city gets the fine and you get nothing.
Mr. BALL. Who was the other cab driver?
Mr. WHALEY. I don't know his name, sir. He worked for the same company
but he works out of the Oak Cliff branch. They say he was the one who saw him
kill the policeman, the one who used the policeman's microphone.
Mr. BALL. Is that Mr. Scoggins?
Mr. WHALEY. What is his name?
Mr. BALL. Scoggins.
Mr. WHALEY. It could have been, sir.
Mr. BALL. You don't know him?
Mr. WHALEY. I just know he drives taxi 213. He works out of Oak Cliff
branch.
Mr. BALL. I would like to have a copy of the manifest temporarily marked
370.
Mr. WHALEY. You may have it, sir.
Mr. BALL. Commission 370, and offer it into evidence and ask leave to
submit the original, if it is brought in, when it is brought here by the FBI.
The CHAIRMAN. Yes, it may be admitted.
(The manifest referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 370 for
identification and received in evidence.)
261 Page
262
Mr. BALL. This will be 370.
Could we excuse Mr. Whaley now? There are two pieces of evidence to be
here and they are not here.
The CHAIRMAN. Excuse him and we will take the other witness.
Mr. BALL. We will excuse him and take the other witness.
Mr. CHAIRMAN. Mr. Whaley, will you wait outside until we get the other
exhibits and we will finish with you very shortly.
Mr. McWatters, would you be seated please. Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. Whalley continued in Volume VI after McWatters
The CHAIRMAN. The Commission is meeting today to take further testimony
concerning the events surrounding the assassination of President Kennedy, and it
is our understanding that you have some information that would bear on that
subject, and that is the reason for our asking you to come here and testify.
Would you raise your right hand to be sworn please. Do you solemnly swear
the testimony you give before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth
and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. McWATTERS. I do. Cecil
J. McWatters Page
262 TESTIMONY
OF CECIL J. McWATTERS
The CHAIRMAN. Would you be seated please, and Mr. Ball will conduct the
interrogation.
Mr. BALL. Mr. McWatters.
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What is your business?
Mr. McWATTERS. I am a bus driver.
Mr. BALL. How long have you been a bus driver?
Mr. McWATTERS. Let's see, this coming September will be 19 years.
Mr. BALL. Whom do you work for?
Mr. McWATTERS. The Dallas Transit Company.
Mr. BALL. How long have you worked for the Dallas Transit Company?
Mr. McWATTERS. It will be 19 years in September, I believe.
Mr. BALL. Where do you live?
Mr. McWATTERS.
Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, were you on duty as a driver?
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What kind of a bus were you driving?
Mr. McWATTERS. Well, I was driving a 44-passenger, let's see, it is a
44-passenger city bus made by White, I believe is the maker of the bus.
Mr. BALL. What hours of work were you assigned that day?
Mr. McWATTERS. Well, I was assigned that day on the particular run from
11:52 until 2:27.
Mr. BALL. What was your run?
Mr. McWATTERS. Do you mean the name of the run?
Mr. BALL. What course did you take, what part of
Mr. McWATTERS. Well, I went from.
Mr. BALL. Describe it generally, you don't need to go into any detail.
Mr. McWATTERS. I would say from northeast
Mr. BALL. Would that be northeast to southwest?
Mr. McWATTERS. That is right.
Mr. BALL. There is a place near the downtown area of
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; I have after I get into town, when I get into
the downtown part of it, now St. Paul Street is my official time point going in,
where they have a supervisor that stays at this checkpoint there, to check all
incoming vehicles.
Mr. BALL. You would be coming in from northeast
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; I am coming in from the
262 Page
263
Mr. BALL. And you got to the intersection of what street and
Mr. McWATTERS. That is Elm,
Mr. BALL. Elm and
Mr. McWATTERS. Elm and
Mr. BALL. If you are ahead of time do you stop there until you are
assigned a time to get in?
Mr. McWATTERS. Well, sir; no sir; you don't--a man he has his watch and
schedule. If you are ahead of your schedule he will come out and stop you, in
other words, and ask you if your watch is right or what is it, you know, the
idea of you being there. There is no excuse, you know for a man being ahead of
his schedule.
Mr. BALL. If you are ahead of your schedule does he stop you there until
you leave?
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, that is right.
Mr. BALL. What time are you due, according to your schedule, to leave the
corner of
Mr. McWATTERS. 12:36.
Mr. BALL. What time did you leave there that day?
Mr. McWATTERS. Well, I left there that day on time because coming into
town that day, I guess everybody done went to, down to, see the parade, I didn't
have over four or five passengers coming into downtown.
Mr. BALL. Were you ahead of your schedule?
Mr. McWATTERS. Well, I stopped about a block before now, just a block
before we get to St. Paul, there is a big theater there, and it has all loading
zones, no parking there and a lot of times if we are a minute or two ahead of
our schedule when we pull in in front of this theater before we get there in
time, in other words, we kill a minute.
Mr. BALL. What did you do this day?
Mr. McWATTERS. Well, I was a little ahead of my schedule and I killed
about a minute, I guess, before I went to cross
Mr. BALL. After your dispatcher checked you in what time did you leave
that corner of
Mr. McWATTERS. Well, the best I can remember I don't recall even picking
up a passenger there. I think I discharged one lady passenger there on that, to
the best I can recall, because I remember that I had, when I crossed Field
Street, I think I had five passengers on my bus.
Mr. BALL. Well then, back to *the question, what time did you leave that
day, leave Elm and
Mr. McWATTERS. Well, I would have to say I left there around, in other
words, 12:36 because I know I was on good time when I come in there.
Mr. BALL. And you think you left at the time you were supposed to leave?
Mr. McWATTERS. Well, I am almost positive I did, because, as I say, we
generally come in on schedules on good time because from that street on is where
we generally--for the next seven or eight blocks--is where we get all of our
passengers going through the downtown area.
Mr. BALL. Had you heard any sirens before you got to
Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Do you know if your dispatcher keeps a written record?
Mr. McWATTERS. The only way he keeps a written record is if you are ahead
of your schedule. He has a little pad, and if a man is ahead of his schedule, in
other words, he writes, of course, we all go by badge numbers, in other words,
he would write your badge number, your bus number, and if you was ahead of
schedule he would write how much ahead of schedule you were, and--
Mr. BALL. Do you think he did anything, did he write anything up on you
on that day?
Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir; the guy that we have down there now, if you are
ahead of schedule he will come out, in other words, because he stands on the
corner all the time, and if you are a minute or two ahead of your schedule he
will come out and if nothing else, converse with you for a minute or two to see
that you leave it on time and very seldom, I mean, if ever--of course, a report
goes in on you, it goes against your record.
263 Page
264
Mr. BALL. In other words, if he did make a record it would be by way of a
reprimand to you?
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. As you went on down Elm you left your post at
Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you pick up any passengers?
Mr. McWATTERS. I picked up within a period of from the time I picked up
two or three passengers, I can't recall just exactly which stop. I have after I
leave St. Paul Street, I have Ervay Street and Akard Street, and Field Street
which would be three stops where I can't recall that, exactly where I discharged
or picked up passengers, because I had the few passengers that I had which I
came into town with.
Mr. BALL. Well then, do you remember picking up a passenger at a place
other than at a bus stop as you went down Elm?
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.
As I left Field Street, I pulled out into the, in other words, the first
lane of traffic and traffic was beginning to back up then; in other words, it
was blocked further down the street, and after I pulled out in it for a short
distance there I come to a complete stop, and when I did, someone come up and
beat on the door of the bus, and that is about even with Griffin Street.
In other words, it is a street that dead ends into Elm Street which there
is no bus stop at this street, because I stopped across Field Street in the
middle of the intersection and it is just a short distance onto Griffin Street,
and that is when someone, a man, came up and knocked on the door of the bus, and
I opened the door of the bus and he got on.
Mr. BALL. You were beyond Field and before you got to
Mr. McWATTERS. That is right. It was along about even with
Mr. BALL. And that is about seven or eight blocks from the
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. It would be seven, I would say that is seven, it
would be about seven blocks.
Mr. BALL. From there?
Mr. McWATTERS. From there, yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What did the man look like who knocked on your door and got on
your bus? Mr.
McWATTERS. Well, I didn't pay any particular attention to him. He was to me just
dressed in what I would call work clothes, just some type of little old jacket
on, and I didn't pay any particular attention to the man when he got on-
Mr. BALL. Paid his fare, did he?
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; he just paid his fare and sat down on the second
cross seat on the right.
Mr. BALL. Do you remember whether or not you gave him a transfer?
Mr. McWATTERS. Not when he got on; no, sir.
Mr. BALL. You didn't. Did you ever give him a transfer?
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; I gave him one about two blocks from where he
got on.
Mr. BALL. Did he ask you for a transfer?
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Do you remember what he said to you when he asked you for the
transfer?
Mr. McWATTERS. Well, the reason I recall the incident, I had--there was a
lady that when I stopped in this traffic, there was a lady who had a suitcase
and she said, "I have got to make a 1 o'clock train at Union Station,"
and she said, "I don't believe from the looks of this traffic you are going
to be held up."
She said, "Would you give me a transfer and I am going to walk on
down," which is about from where I was at that time about 7 or 8 blocks to
Union Station and she asked me if I would give her a transfer in case I did get
through the traffic if I would pick her up on the way.
So, I said, "I sure will." So I gave her a transfer and opened
the door and as she was going out the gentleman I had picked up about 2 blocks
asked for a
264 Page
265 transfer
and got off at the same place in the middle of the block where the lady did.
Mr. BALL. Where was that near, what intersection?
Mr. McWATTERS. It was the intersection near
Mr. BALL. He had been on the bus about 2 blocks?
Mr. McWATTERS. About 2 blocks; yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Up to that time had you heard any sirens?
Mr. McWATTERS. Not up until--now just about the time that, let's see,
that is when I left Griffin, right about the time this gentleman got on the bus
the traffic was starting and that was about the first that I can recall of
hearing the sirens, but when, in other words, when they started it seemed to me
like they was coming from all over town.
Mr. BALL. Did you have a radio in your bus?
Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you hear a radio from nearby cars announcing anything about
the President's assassination?
Mr. McWATTERS. Well, there was cars that were stopped alongside of the
bus and I think someone raised the window but I couldn't hear. I never did hear
anything outside of the--
Mr. BALL. Where were you when you first heard the President had been
shot?
Mr. McWATTERS. Well, I was sitting in the bus, there was some gentleman
in front of me in a car, and he came back and walked up to the bus and I opened
the door and he said, "I have heard over my radio in my car that the
President has been--" I believe he used the word--"has been
shot."
Mr. BALL. Is that when you were stalled in traffic?
Mr. McWATTERS. That is right. That is when I was stalled right there.
Mr. BALL. Was that before or after the man got off the bus that asked for
the transfer?
Mr. McWATTERS. That was before. In other words, at that time no one had
gotten off the bus.
Mr. BALL. What was your location then, near what street?
Mr. McWATTERS. Between Poydras and Lamar, in other words, because I
stayed stopped there for, I guess oh, 3 or 4 minutes anyway before I made any
progress at that one stop right there and that is where the gentleman got off
the bus. In fact, I was talking to the man, the man that come out of the car; in
other words, he just stepped up in the door of the bus, and was telling me that
what he had heard over his radio and that is when the lady who was standing
there decided she would walk and when the other gentleman decided he would also
get off at that point.
Mr. BALL. At that point.
What course did you take after that?
Mr. McWATTERS. Well, I still was going west, in other words, in the same
direction, going west, in other words, towards
When I got to
Mr. BALL. You went by the
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; I turned at the corner of Elm Street and Houston
which this book store is on the opposite corner from where I changed course
there.
Mr. BALL. Was traffic still heavy along there?
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; the traffic was still tied up, but the police,
they opened up a lane there, they had so many buses and everything that was tied
up, they opened up, moved traffic around that they run quite a few of these
buses through there.
In other words, from two blocks on this side of where the incident
happened they had, in other words, they was turning all the traffic to the right
and to the left, in other words, north and south.
Mr. BALL. You went on down to
265 731-218
O--64--vol.II---18 Page
266
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, I turned after they finally let--they weren't letting
any cars through at that time but they just run a bunch of those buses through
there.
Mr. BALL. Is there a bus stop in front of the
Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Where do you stop for that intersection?
Mr. McWATTERS. Well, you stop, in other words, on this side of the
street.
Mr. BALL. You stop on the south side of, the southeast corner of the
intersection?
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.
In other words, like you would be going, direct south towards the
Building, the bus stop is on this corner over here on this side.
Mr. BALL. You mean the corner of
Mr. McWATTERS. That is right.
Mr. BALL. Which corner, north, south, east, west?
Mr. McWATTERS. Well, it would be on the north.
Mr. BALL. North.
Mr. McWATTERS. On the north.
Mr. BALL. Here is a map and maybe you can show us where the bus stop is.
This is Exhibit No. 371.
Mr. McWATTERS. In other words, this is south, in other words.
Mr. BALL. This is west. You are going west on Elm.
Mr. McWATTERS. In other words, I am going--right here is where the police
had all traffic, they wasn't allowing anything to go any further than Market
Street here.
In other words, all the traffic there they were moving was turning either
to the right or left, on
Mr. BALL. Wait a minute, you turned to the left?
Mr. McWATTERS. I turned to the left.
Mr. BALL. On
Mr. McWATTERS. In other words, my last stop, in other words at this comer
right here on Record Street, all buses turning to the left have to stop at this
corner right here.
Mr. BALL. At Record and Elm?
Mr. McWATTERS. At Record and Elm.
Mr. BALL. Do you have a bus stop at
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; there is a bus stop there for the buses that go
on under the underpass.
Mr. BALL. Is there a bus stop for the buses that go south on
Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir; all the buses, we have to get in, this is a
one-way street and you have to get over in this lane here.
Mr. BALL. By the lane you mean the extreme left lane?
Mr. McWATTERS. The extreme left lane to make--
Mr. BALL. To make the left turn south on
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.
Mr. BALL. And your last bus stop, as you go west on Elm and before you
turn is the northeast corner of Record and Elm?
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. BALL. You went on over to
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; to the Oak Cliff section.
Mr. BALL. And there was some conversation occurred on that bus that you
told the FBI officers about?
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Tell us what that was?
Mr. McWATTERS. Well, there was a teenage boy, I would say 17 or 18 years
of age who was sitting to my right on the first cross seat and me and him had,
we had conversationed a little while we was tied up in the traffic, you know, of
266 Page
267 the
fact of we wondered where all, what all the excitement was due to the fact of
the sirens and others, and after I turned on Houston Street I said to him and I
made the remark, I wonder where the President was shot, and I believe he made
the remark that it was probably in the head if he was in a convertible or
something to that effect. I don't remember just exactly the way we worded it or
what it was, but it was a conversation about the President, in other words, to
where he was shot. In other words, and he made the remark or something, he was
probably shot in the head, if he was sitting in a convertible or to that effect.
I really don't know just exactly at that time. Just like I say I never thought
anything about it.
Mr. BALL. Didn't some lady say something?
Mr. McWATTERS. Well, yes, sir.
Now, as we got on out on Marsalis, along about it was either Edgemont or
Vermont, I believe it was Vermont Street, there was a lady who was fixing to
cross the intersection and I stopped and asked her if she was going to catch the
bus into town from the opposite direction, and she said that she was and I told
her that we was off schedule, that the other bus had done went into town, and I
asked her did she care to just ride on to the end of the line and come back and
she wouldn't have to stand there and wait, and she was getting on, and I asked
her had she heard the news of the President being shot, at the time that was all
I knew about it, and she said, "No, what are you--you are just kidding
me."
I said, "No, I really am not kidding you." I said, "It is
the truth from all the reliable sources that we have come in contact with,"
and this teenage boy sitting on the side, I said "Well, now, if you think I
am kidding you," I said, "Ask this gentleman sitting over here,"
and he kind of, I don't know whether it was a grinning or smile or whatever
expression it was, and she said, "I know you are kidding now, because he
laughed or grinned or made some remark to that effect."
And I just told her no it wasn't no kidding matter, but that was part of
the conversation that was said at that time.
Mr. BALL. Was this teenage boy--do you know where this teenage boy got on
the bus?
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; he got on at between, he got on at the stop, in
other words, I stopped in front of the Majestic theater which is a block before
I get to St. Paul; in other words, it is a middle of the stop, block stop, in
other words. We pull in and stop in the center of the block, and my next stop
would be
Mr. BALL. He was on the bus when this man knocked on the door of your bus
and got on?
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; he was.
Mr. BALL. He was on the bus when the man asked for the transfer and got
off?
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. That is right.
Mr. BALL. Were you later called down to the--did the teenage boy ask for
any transfer?
Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Now, you were called down to the
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What day was it?
Mr. McWATTERS. It was on the same day, the 22d.
Mr. BALL. 22d. Do you know how they happened to get in touch with you,
did you notify them that you.--
Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir; I didn't know anything to that effect.
Mr. BALL. Did they come out and get you?
Mr. McWATTERS. They come out and--
Mr. BALL. What did they ask you?
Mr. McWATTERS. Well, they stopped me; it was, I would say around 6:15 or
somewhere around 6:15 or 6:20 that afternoon.
Mr. BALL. You were still on duty, were you?
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.
267 Page
268
Mr. BALL. Still on your bus?
Mr. McWATTERS. I was on duty but I was on a different line and a
different bus.
Mr. BALL. What did they ask you when they came out?
Mr. McWATTERS. Well, they stopped me right by the city hall there when I
come by there and they wanted me to come in, they wanted to ask me some
questions. And I don't know what it was about or anything until I got in there
and they told me what happened.
Mr. BALL. What did they tell you?
Mr. McWATTERS. Well, they told me that they had a transfer that I had
issued that was cut for
Mr. BALL. Did your punch mark have a distinctive mark?
Mr. McWATTERS. It had a distinctive mark and it is registered, in other
words, all the drivers, every driver has a different punch mark.
Mr. BALL. What makes it different?
Mr. McWATTERS. Well, it is, it would be, the symbol of it or angle, in
other words, every one; it is different, in other words.
Mr. BALL. You have a punch there?
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; I have the punch right here.
Mr. BALL. Is that the punch that you used?
Mr. McWATTERS. That is the punch I used.
Mr. BALL. Will you punch a piece of paper and show us?
Mr. McWATTERS. In other words, that is the type of punch that this one
makes right here, in other words.
Mr. BALL. That is a different type of punch than any other driver has?
Mr. McWATTERS. Any driver, in other words.
Mr. BALL. On any bus in
Mr. McWATTERS. In other words, the superintendent has a list, in other
words, it would be just like this and every man has a punch and he has his name,
and everything. In other words, if anyone calls in about a transfer or anything,
I mean brings one in he can look right down the list by the punch mark and tell
whose punch it is, and who it is registered to.
Mr. BALL. Now, the sample of your punch there has been on a piece of
paper and we would like to have it marked as 372 at this time.
(The paper referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 372 and received
in evidence.)
Mr. BALL. If you punched, made a punch mark, on a transfer, did you
designate the time of the punch or the place of the punch?
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; I designate the time of the we have one general
transfer point. In other words,
In other words, if you was to arrive there at, say, 12:50 or in that
vicinity, you always give the passenger the 15 minutes, in other words, within
the hour of the transfer. In other words, is the way they have you to cut your
transfers across your cutter.
In other words, it is just a little thing that you raise up and down and
you can adjust them, and right here is a book of them in which you can see the
time. It is one, in other words, 2:15, 3:30, and 4:45, and we set them in other
words, if you wanted at 1:15, 1 o'clock would be across this direction. If you
wanted it 1:15 you would cut across this direction or if you wanted it 1:45 you
would cut it in this direction. In other words, 1:15, - :30 and - :45. In other
words, the 15 minutes is always given at the time, at the general transfer
point.
Representative FORD. It is 10:25 now. How would you cut it right now?
Mr. McWATTERS. At 10:25.
Representative FORD. Why don't you cut one?
Mr. McWATTERS. I have a regular cutter, you see; let's see if he can get
something that would--in other words, 10:25, I will just cut it, in other words,
cut
268 Page
269 across
there, and cut it, in other words, at 10:30, in other words, it would show at
10:30.
(At this point, Senator Cooper entered the hearing room.)
Representative FORD. Where do you put your own identification?
Mr. McWATTERS. On here. Well, if it is in the morning or in the
afternoon, here is your a.m., or your p.m. In other words, it is before 12:45,
in other words, we consider up to 12:45 a.m., in other words, that is the way
they are.
In other words, I would punch it in the a.m. side of it, and if it was in
the afternoon, in other words, after that, it would be a p.m. transfer, and
whatever line that you are working has the name on it right here.
In other words, at that time that transfer I had punched was punched a
p.m.
Mr. BALL. Well now, do you punch the transfer when the passenger asks for
it?
Mr. McWATTERS. No. No, sir; in other words, when you leave this, you are
inbound when you are going into town or when you are going, in other words, out
of town, in other words.
I was coming in, in other words, when I got in
Mr. BALL. For downtown and you set them for what time?
Mr. McWATTERS. I set them for 1 o'clock.
Mr. BALL. You set them for 1 o'clock?
Mr. McWATTERS. 1 o'clock.
Mr. BALL. When you reached your end of the run in northeast Dallas then
you set your transfers for 1 o'clock, did you?
Mr. McWATTERS. That is right, when I was coming back in.
Mr. BALL. And when you gave this transfer near Poydras and Elm--
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you pull out a transfer that had already been set for 1
o'clock time?
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. In other words, I just reached up on my cutter
and just tore off one which is already punched.
Mr. BALL. Then did you punch it again or was it already punched?
Mr. McWATTERS. It was already punched.
Mr. BALL. And you had punched it at the end of the line?
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. So all you had to do is pull the transfer off of the pile of
transfers and hand it to the man?
Mr. McWATTERS. That is correct.
Mr. BALL. And you had anticipated at the end of the line that when you
got to about this point it would be a 1 o'clock transfer, is that correct?
Mr. McWATTERS. Well, that is right.
In other words, there is enough time on it, just like I say, within a
quarter of an hour, but--
Mr. BALL. When you got to the police station that day did they show you a
transfer?
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What did you tell them about the transfer?
Mr. McWATTERS. Well, I recognized the transfer as being the transfer that
1 had issued.
Mr. BALL. How did you recognize it?
Mr. McWATTERS. By my punch mark on it.
Mr. BALL. And what about the line?
Mr. McWATTERS. The line?
Mr. BALL.
Mr. McWATTERS The Lakewood punch on it, and where it was punched and
Mr. BALL. Were you able to identify it any further as a particular
transfer you had given to any particular passenger?
Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir. Only--
Mr. BALL. Go ahead.
Mr. McWATTERS. I only gave two transfers going through town on that trip
269 Page
270 and
that was at the one stop of where I gave the lady and the gentleman that got off
the bus, I issued two transfers. But that was the only two transfers that were
issued.
Mr. BALL. Did you tell the police in
Mr. McWATTERS. I don't remember whether I did or not.
Mr. BALL. But you do remember it now?
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.
(At this point Chief Justice Warren left the hearing room.)
Mr. BALL. All right. Now, what else did you do that day?
Mr. McWATTERS. Well, let's see
Mr. BALL. Did they show you any prisoner?
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; when they stopped me over there and took me into
the police department there, like I say, it was around 6:15 or 6:20, they took
me down before the lineup there and asked me if I could identify anyone in that
lineup as getting on my bus that day.
Mr. BALL. Did they take you down and show you a lineup?
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. You sat there with police officers and they brought men in
there?
Mr. McWATTERS. They brought four men out. In other words, four men under
the lights; in other words, they was all--
Mr. BALL. All the same age?
Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir; they were different ages, different sizes and
different heights. And they asked me if I could identify any man in particular
there, and I told them that I couldn't identify any man in particular, but there
was one man there that was about the size of the man. Now, I was referring back,
after they done showed me this transfer at that time and I knew which trip, that
I went through town on at that time, in other words, on the Lakewood trip and
just like I recalled, I only put out two transfers and I told them that there
was one man in the lineup was about the size and the height and complexion of a
man that got on my bus, but as far as positively identifying the man I could not
do it.
Mr. BALL. What was the size and the height and complexion of the man that
knocked on the window of this bus?
Mr. McWATTERS. Well, I would say, just like I told the police, to me he
was just a medium-sized man. To me he was, I could say, not, I wouldn't call
him--just of average weight, and I would say a light-complected, to the best of
my knowledge.
Mr. BALL. When you say "average weight" what do you mean?
Mr. McWATTERS. I figured just like I saw, the man, he looked like to me
the best way I can describe him would be 135 or 140 pounds.
Mr. BALL. What about height?
Mr. McWATTERS. Well, just like I told them, it looked like to me he would
probably be five-seven or five-eight, in that vicinity.
Mr. BALL. Anyway, you were not able to identify any man in the lineup as
the passenger?
Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. As the passenger who had gotten on?
Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. You said there was one man who closely resembled in height,
weight and color?
Mr. McWATTERS. That is right.
Mr. BALL. Do you know who that was?
Mr. McWATTERS. Just like I told them, I didn't know who was who or
anything.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever learn who that person was?
Mr. McWATTERS. Well, I don't know whether that was really the man or not,
I don't know.
Mr. BALL. I see.
Now, I have a map here.
(Discussion off the record.)
Representative FORD. All right, proceed.
Mr. BALL. You remember you told us about the man that knocked on the
window of the door of your bus just before you got to
270 Page
271
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; along about the vicinity of
Mr. BALL. You let him on the bus, and he paid his fare, how much is that
fare?
Mr. McWATTERS. It is 23 cents.
Mr. BALL. 23 cents, and you went about down almost to Poydras.
Mr. McWATTERS. Almost, between Poydras and Lamar.
Mr. BALL. Between Poydras and Lamar, closer to Lamar than to Poydras?
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And a man got on. Was it the same man?
Mr. McWATTERS. That was the same man who got on the bus that I picked up,
in other words.
Mr. BALL. And the man you gave the transfer to?
Mr. McWATTERS. The man I gave the transfer to when the woman--in other
words, when the man that got on
Mr. BALL. And he was only on the bus about 2 blocks?
Mr. McWATTERS. Two blocks was the only distance.
Mr. BALL. How long did it take you to go those 2 blocks?
Mr. McWATTERS. Now, he paid as far as from
Mr. BALL. In other words, how long was the man on your bus, the man who
got on, about
Mr. McWATTERS. Well, he got on, and when he got on, I made that one
block, and then the other, well, I would be safe in saying he wasn't on there 5
minutes.
Mr. BALL. And you think he got off or on around 12:40?
Mr. McWATTERS. 12:40 that is the best.
Mr. BALL. What time did you say he got on approximately?
Mr. McWATTERS. On the bus?
Mr. BALL. Yes.
Mr. McWATTERS. Well, I would say in the vicinity from where I left up
there it would be probably it took me, I would say, 3 minutes to come, let's
see, it would be Ervay, Akard and Field, that is about 3 blocks there where I
left my time point which I would say just a rough estimation it would be with no
traffic would be 2 or 3 minutes, I would say 3 minutes anyway. So, it must have
been somewheres 12:39 or--so.
Mr. BALL. When he got on the bus?
Mr. McWATTERS. 12:40.
Mr. BALL. And then he was on the bus about how many minutes?
Mr. McWATTERS. Well, just like I say he wasn't on the bus over 4 or 5
minutes, in other words, just made that 1 block there, and in other words, when
the traffic stopped, well, that is when he got off the bus.
Representative FORD. During the time he was on the bus this man rapped at
your door or was your door open, and spoke up and said that the President had
been shot?
Mr. McWATTERS. He was on the bus, you mean was the door open?
Representative FORD. No. You previously testified that while you were
stalled or jammed up in the traffic
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.
Representative FORD. A man came to the door of the bus and indicated by
word of mouth--
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.
Representative FORD. That the President had been shot.
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.
Representative FORD. Now, was the man to whom you issued the transfer on
the bus at that time?
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.
Representative FORD. Now, the man who spoke up and said that the
President had been shot, how loudly did he say that?
271 Page
272
Mr. McWATTERS. Well, he said it loud enough that I guess everybody on the
bus heard him when he stepped up in the bus.
Representative FORD. In other words, that would be your best impression
or best recollection that whoever said this, that the President had been shot,
said it loudly enough for not only you but the other bus passengers to hear it?
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. Because he stepped up in the bus and when he
made the statement in other words, he said that the President had been shot,
because I am pretty sure everybody--he said it to the fact. I think that
everybody, there might have been some, if there was anybody in the extreme back
of the bus, might not have heard it, but I think anyone who was near the front
part of the bus could have.
Representative FORD. But at that time when this man made this statement,
there was a teenager sitting in the first cross seat on the right-hand side of
the bus?
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.
Representative FORD. And the man who had gotten on the bus to whom you
later issued the transfer, was sitting in the second?
Mr. McWATTERS. In the second seat.
Representative FORD. What is the distance from the door of the bus where
the man was standing who made this statement to the second cross seat?
Mr. McWATTERS. Well, I would say, let's see, it would be I would say 6 or
8 feet.
Representative FORD. Was he sitting alone in the second cross seat?
Mr. McWATTERS. He was sitting alone.
Representative FORD. Did you notice any reaction on the part of any of
your passengers to this comment by this man who made this statement?
Mr. McWATTERS. Well, the only reaction that I knew is when he got up and
said that. well, that is when the lady got off first, which she jumped up and
got her suitcase and said, in other words, made a remark to something. "I
am afraid you are going to be tied up here in this traffic and I want to get
off."
Representative FORD. Where was this lady sitting who got up and asked for
this transfer?
Mr. McWATTERS. Now, this lady was sitting behind me, in other words, I am
the driver.
Representative FORD. On the left-hand side of the bus looking forward?
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; in other words, it is a cross seat. I mean a
side seat, in other words, like the driver sitting here, the first seat is the
one that runs parallel with the bus, in other words.
Representative FORD. Well now, the seat in which the lady was sitting
would be parallel to the second cross seat on the other side of the bus?
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, in other words--
Representative FORD. It would be on the same line?
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.
Representative FORD. The first seat would be ahead--the first seat on the
right-hand side of the bus would be ahead of the seat where the lady was
sitting?
Mr. McWATTERS. No, you mean the lady, I am referring to who got off
first?
Representative FORD. Yes.
Mr. McWATTERS. No, the lady--I was sitting in the driver's seat, she was
sitting right behind me, in other words, facing out his way.
Representative FORD. But she obviously heard what the man said about the
President being shot?
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.
Representative FORD. There is no doubt in your mind she heard that?
Mr. McWATTERS. I wouldn't think so because when she got up and stated she
wanted to get off--
Representative FORD. Was she any further from the man who made this
statement about the President being shot than the man who was sitting in the
second cross seat?
Mr. McWATTERS. She was closer to the man actually than the man that got
off with her was.
Representative FORD. How many feet or how much difference?
Mr. McWATTERS. Well, the lady in other words, from the door here, it is
272 Page
273 just
two cross seats, and two seats where you sit sideways and then the two seats in
which he would be back here.
Representative FORD. Could you diagram that as best as you can?
Mr. BELIN. Congressman, we have a diagram. We have a picture of the side
of the bus.
Mr. McWATTERS. Right here.
Representative FORD. Sit down.
Mr. McWATTERS. You can see it from this point right here, in other words.
You see this cross seat, in other words, these first two right here, the
driver's seat, you see the first two seats there, in other words.
Representative FORD. Could you sit down and mark it?
Mr. McWATTERS. This is the inside, let's see, this is the driver right
here. Here is your cross seat right here. Here, about back here, is where the
lady got off who was sitting on this seat.
Representative FORD. Will you mark that with an "L"?
Mr. McWATTERS. In other words, right here.
Representative FORD. Where was the man in the first cross seat sitting?
Mr. McWATTERS. Right here is the first. Right here is where the man that
was sitting, got off, in this seat right here, I believe it is.
Representative FORD. Will you mark that "M" where the man who
was sitting also got off who got the transfer?
Mr. BALL. Maybe we had better use a black pen that will show better on
that glazed surface.
Representative FORD. This is where the man was sitting who you issued the
transfer to at the same time the lady was issued the transfer?
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.
Representative FORD. And the teenager was sitting in what seat?
Mr. McWATTERS. Right here.
Representative FORD. Will you mark that "0"?
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.
Representative FORD. Where was the man standing who came to the bus and
said the President had been shot?
Mr. McWATTERS. Right here.
Representative FORD. On the step?
Mr. McWATTERS. On the step. I guess, I presume this would be the second
step there. To the best of my recollection he stepped up on the first step.
Representative FORD. Mark that "P."
Mr. McWATTERS. "P."
Representative FORD. Now, after the man who was standing at "P"
said the President was shot, what did the lady do who was sitting in
"L"?
Mr. McWATTERS. Well, the lady, she had a suitcase sitting right there
beside me and she left. When the lady got up and said she would like to get off
the bus, and that she was going to walk to the Union Station and asked me if I
would give her a transfer in case that I caught up with her, and asked me if I
would pick her up.
Representative FORD. You gave her a transfer?
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.
Representative FORD. What happened?
Mr. McWATTERS. She got off and by the time when she was talking to me
that is when he got up, this gentleman here in the seat got up, at seat
"M" got off. In other words, the door was never closed of the bus from
the time the gentleman stepped up in the door of that there, in other words,
when he said what he did, and got on back in his car, in other words, the lady
got off, and the man got off, too, both at the same stop.
In other words, the bus hadn't moved at that stop.
Mr. BALL. I would like to mark this as the next exhibit, Commission's
exhibit, which will be the diagram of the bus with the initials "M,"
"O," "L," "P," will be marked as Commission's
Exhibit 373.
Representative FORD. It will be so admitted.
(The diagram referred to was marked Commission's Exhibit No. 373 for
identification and received in evidence.)
273 Page
274
Mr. BALL. And a photograph of the interior of the bus, I would like to
have marked as 374.
And a diagram of the bus itself showing front and side as 375.
(The photograph and diagram referred to were marked Commission Exhibits
Nos. 374 and 375, respectively, and received in evidence.)
Mr. BALL. I will hand you a photograph of the exterior of the bus.
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; in other words, that is the same bus number.
Mr. BALL. That is right.
Mr. McWATTERS. That is the bus it was.
Mr. BALL. That is the bus. Number --
Mr. McWATTERS. 433.
Representative FORD. So admitted.
Mr. BALL. These are all admitted.
Now, we have this map which is Commission's Exhibit 371. Can You show me
your starting point which is where you started your time on Elm and what street?
Mr. McWATTERS. That is Elm and
Mr. BALL. Will you mark an "X" there with your black pen, or
let's take red pen this time for you, on this same map, here it is right there,
that is where you commenced your time, is that right?
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Put an "O" there.
Mr. McWATTERS. Put an "O" here.
Mr. BALL. Just circle that intersection.
Mr. McWATTERS. O.K.
Mr. BALL. Now, you went along Elm, westerly along Elm?
Mr. McWATTERS. That is right--
Mr. BALL. Put a "P" about the place where the man knocked on
the window of your door of your bus and got on. Here is
Mr. McWATTERS. This is
Mr. BALL. And put an "R" at the place where the man got off the
bus.
Mr. McWATTERS. Let's see.
Mr. BALL. Here is Lamar.
Mr. McWATTERS. Here is Lamar here. I want to find Poydras.
Mr. BALL. That is right in here.
Mr. McWATTERS. That would be, in other words, about the center here would
be, in other words, a little bit closer to Lamar than--
Mr. BALL. Put an "R" there to indicate the approximate position
where he got off.
"O" is where you started, so you had better raise those up to
Elm. The place he got on and the place he got off.
Perhaps, if you would just draw a line up and put your "R" it
would be easier.
Mr. McWATTERS. On
Mr. BALL. Where he got on, wherever it was.
Mr. McWATTERS. Is that where you want the "P"?
Mr. BALL. That is where he got on?
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes. O.K. right here.
Mr. BALL. And where he got off "R".
Mr. McWATTERS. That is a very short block right in between Poydras and
Lamar here.
Mr. BALL. All right.
Now, let's use the map here. You made your start at
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Now, you picked up a man who knocked on the window of your bus
at a place in the street that was not a bus stop, is that right?
Mr. McWATTERS. That is correct.
Mr. BALL. And its approximate location was where?
Mr. McWATTERS. At
Mr. BALL. And you have marked that as "P"?
Mr. McWATTERS. Marked that as "P".
Mr. BALL. That same man stayed on your bus until you got to what
location?
274 Page
275
Mr. McWATTERS. Well, the location was between Poydras and In
other words, I would say closer to Lamar than to Poydras.
Mr. BALL. At that point he got off the bus?
Mr. McWATTERS. He got off the bus.
Mr. BALL. And you gave him a transfer?
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.
Mr. BALL. And you have marked that "R", is that correct?
Mr. McWATTERS. That is right, yes.
Mr. BALL. There is another map I would like to show you that hasn't been
marked yet as a Commission Exhibit, and I will have that marked as 376, a map of
You have already marked on this map, haven't you, or it has been marked
in advance then by someone.
(The map referred to was marked Commission's Exhibit No. 376 and received
in evidence.)
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Now, take a look at this map and tell me if that map, the blue
line on the map, indicates your route on that day, where you started in
northeast
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, that is the original starting line there.
Mr. BALL. What is the street?
Mr. McWATTERS. I believe--I can't even see that small print on that. That
is Ellsworth and Anita, that is where it is coming back there.
Mr. BALL. Ellsworth and Anita, and then you proceeded downtown along that
course, did you?
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. This is
Mr. BALL. Do you have an alternative route through there?
Mr. McWATTERS. No, in other words, that is where the main thoroughfare
starts right there at
Mr. BALL. You went down Gaston to Pacific?
Mr. McWATTERS. Went down Gaston to, let's see this is
Mr. BALL. Then you went left on Hawkins to Elm?
Mr. McWATTERS. To Elm Street, yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Then you went on Elm.
Mr. McWATTERS. Went from Elm to, this would be
Mr. BALL. Turned on
Mr. McWATTERS. Left on
Mr. BALL. To Marsalis?
Mr. McWATTERS. In other words, this is the
Mr. BALL. Then you go south how far?
Mr. McWATTERS. Go south all the way to, let's see, it is
Mr. BALL. A straight run south?
Mr. McWATTERS. Straight run.
Mr. BALL. Then you make a turn and go back?
Mr. McWATTERS. I make a turn, in other words, on
Mr. BALL. And go back.
Mr. McWATTERS. And right back down Marsalis.
Mr. BALL. Marsalis is how far from
Mr. McWATTERS. Marsalis is, let's see--
Mr. BALL. This is
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. You can count the streets there, can you?
Mr. McWATTERS. In other words, it would be seven blocks.
Mr. BALL. Seven blocks,
275 Page
276
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Your bus line doesn't run down
Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. It doesn't run seven blocks, close to
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; there is.
Mr. BALL. Can you get a bus that goes down
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; the bus comes, the Beckley bus comes in on St.
Paul and Elm, in other words, at the time that I was, before we started, in
other words, that is where the Beckley bus enters Elm Street there and then he
goes the same route through town.
Mr. BALL. Same route you go down to the
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes. In other words, after the Book Depository down there,
he goes straight on.
Mr. BALL. Let me ask you this: The
Mr. McWATTERS. St. Paul, in other words, the time element is the same. In
other words, he comes in there.
Mr. BALL. Then that
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. But instead of turning south on the
Mr. McWATTERS. That is correct.
Mr. BALL. Can you show us the bus stop for the
Mr. McWATTERS. Well, yes; his last bus stop would be right here at the
corner of--
Mr. BALL. Let's put a mark on this. Here is a red pencil, and put a mark
on this in red and show us the place where the
Mr. McWATTERS. It would stop--in other words, we consider this corner of
this intersection right here, any letter or what.
Mr. BALL. Just put a rectangular mark about the size of a bus indicating
bus stop--take black ink and indicating a place where the bus would stop.
Mr. McWATTERS. In other words, the bus would stop along in this place
right here.
Mr. BALL. All right, now that is bus stop for
Mr. McWATTERS. That is bus stop for
Mr. BALL. Northeast corner
Mr. McWATTERS. Northeast corner of
Mr. BALL. The
Mr. McWATTERS. That is correct.
Mr. BALL. As your bus gets into another lane of traffic and does not stop
at
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Then the
Representative FORD. How long have you been on this run that you had the
day of November 22?
Mr. McWATTERS. I worked this run for, I would say, this is the, second
year. This makes 2 years that I worked this.
Representative FORD. Two years consecutively?
Mr. McWATTERS. 2 years consecutively that I have been on this run and
worked it.
Representative FORD. So you would be familiar with the route?
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; just like I say. I worked it, this is the second
year that I have worked the same, in other words, the same hours, and the same
route.
276 Page
277
Representative FORD. How many hours a day do you work this route?
Mr. McWATTERS. Well, now, this one particular route right here, I work it
only 2 hours and 35 minutes.
Representative FORD. Each day?
Mr. McWATTERS. Each day.
Representative FORD. How many days a week?
Mr. McWATTERS. 5 days, Monday through Friday. And after that, in other
words, I work on another a different bus line.
But this one particular one here is just 2 hours and 35 minutes each day.
Representative FORD. When you say a different bus line, you mean the same
company but a different route?
Mr. McWATTERS. A different route.
Representative FORD. You would be familiar with the time schedules and
all of the stops on this particular route from your 2 years experience?
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.
Senator COOPER. May I ask a question?
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.
Senator COOPER. Have you testified that you saw this passenger whom you
later recognized in the lineup, get on the bus in the vicinity of Murphy
Street--is Murphy Street on your right?
Mr. McWATTERS. Murphy Street is the street that, in other words, that
comes in--
Senator COOPER. Does it run into
Mr. McWATTERS. It runs into Elm Street, it dead ends, in other words,
into
Here is Field Street, in other words, across this intersection and we
stopped across the intersection of Field, and Murphy Street comes in to the
intersection at about where the bus stops, in other words, where Field Street
stops and I guess that Griffin is the next small street that comes in just, it
is just a short distance below.
Senator COOPER. Well, did the passenger that you have testified about,
and whom you stated that you later identified, did he get on in the vicinity of
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.
Senator COOPER. Murphy Street--you proceeded from
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.
Senator COOPER. Is that correct?
Mr. McWATTERS. That is correct.
Senator COOPER. Was the passenger that got on near Murphy Street the same
passenger that you later have testified about who told you that the President
had been shot in the temple?
Mr. McWATTERS. Well, they told me later that it was, but at the time they
didn't tell me.
Senator COOPER. Who didn't tell you?
Mr. McWATTERS. The police didn't.
Senator COOPER. When you say this passenger got on near
Mr. McWATTERS. Well, no, sir. I wouldn't say there was. He was, I would
say, he didn't have on no suit or anything, he had on, I believe, some type of
jacket, cloth jacket.
Senator COOPER. What caused you to remember him getting on?
Mr. McWATTERS. What caused me to remember?
Senator COOPER. Yes; at the time he got on.
Mr. McWATTERS. Because, the reason I remembered exactly because I didn't
put out but two transfers, and that, in other words, from where he got on and
everything, I didn't have but one, there wasn't but one man on the bus and that
was the teenage boy, when he got on the bus, in other words, when he got off, he
was the only man except the teenage boy who was on the bus at the time.
Senator COOPER. Now was this man that you saw got on the bus the same one
who told you that the President had been shot in the temple?
Mr. McWATTERS. The man who got on the bus now?
277 Page
278
Senator COOPER. Yes. The man to whom you have just referred as getting on
the bus near
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.
Senator COOPER. Is he the same man who told you that the President had
been shot in the temple?
Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir.
Senator COOPER. Who told you that?
Mr. McWATTERS. A man in an automobile in front of me, in other words,
that was sitting in a car come back and told me.
Senator COOPER. Told you what?
Mr. McWATTERS. That the President had been shot, that he had heard over
his radio in his car that the President had been shot.
Senator COOPER. I think you have testified that someone, some passenger
on the bus, in response to a question that you had asked, "I wonder where
they shot the President" said, "They shot him in the temple."
Mr. McWATTERS. Oh, that was now, that was after we had done, that is when
I turned on
Senator COOPER. It was the teenage boy who told you that?
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; it was the teenage boy, sitting on his right
side of the side seat there, the one that I conversationed with about the
President being shot in the head or the temple, I don't remember, but the
teenage boy was the one.
That was after the man that already got off that had boarded my bus up
around
Senator COOPER. Then the one who told you the President had been shot in
the temple was not the one you later identified in the police lineup?
Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir.
Senator COOPER. This probably has been testified to, but where did the
man that you later identified in the police lineup get off the bus?
Mr. McWATTERS. Got off between Poydras and
Senator COOPER. Was that after you crossed over the viaduct or before?
Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir; that was before I crossed over.
Senator COOPER. When did the teenage boy get off the bus?
Mr. McWATTERS. He got off at Oak Cliff, I believe. He got off at Marsalis
and Brownley.
Senator COOPER. Was that after the bus had crossed the viaduct?
Mr. McWATTERS. That is after the bus had--
Senator COOPER. Past the
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; that is about 3 or 4 miles out in the Oak Cliff
section where the teenage boy got off of the bus.
Senator COOPER. From the time the man got on the bus, which you later
identified in the police lineup until he got off, had you noticed him, had you
looked at him again?
Mr. McWATTERS. Had I looked at him again?
Senator COOPER. Yes.
Mr. McWATTERS. Not until just like I say he was sitting--I was talking to
this teenage boy and he was sitting right behind this boy, but I didn't pay him
any particular attention, to the man.
Senator COOPER. You saw him get on the bus?
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.
Senator COOPER. Did you see him get off?
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes; I gave him a transfer when he got off the bus, the
same place that was, the same place I was stopped where the man come back and
stepped up in the bus and told me what he had heard over his radio in his car,
the same place that the lady got off, with a suitcase, is the place that the man
got off.
Senator COOPER. The man you later identified in the police lineup?
Mr. McWATTERS. That is correct; yes, sir.
Senator COOPER. Did you pay any particular attention to him when he got
off?
Mr. McWATTERS. Not no more than I did than, I think, when he got on.
Senator COOPER. Do you remember anything about his clothes or his general
appearance in any way?
278 Page
279
Mr. McWATTERS. Just like I say, I remember he had on, to me he had on
just work clothes, he didn't have on a suit of clothes, and some type of jacket.
I would say a cloth jacket.
Senator COOPER. I believe that is all.
Mr. BALL. You didn't--as I understand it, when you were at the police
lineup, you told us that you didn't--weren't able to identify this man in the
lineup as the man who got off, that you gave the transfer to.
Mr. McWATTERS. I told them to the best of my knowledge, I said the man
that I picked out was the same height, about the same height, weight and
description. But as far as actually saying that is the man I couldn't--
Mr. BALL. You couldn't do it?
Mr. McWATTERS. I wouldn't do it and I wouldn't do it now.
Mr. BALL. You signed an affidavit for the Dallas Police Department, do
you remember that?
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. I will show you a copy of it, we can get the original if you
want, but there is a copy of it, a picture taken of it. Will you read it,
please?
(At this point, Representative Ford withdrew from the hearing room.)
Mr. BALL. This document, I would like to have marked as 377, at this
time, Commission Exhibit, with the understanding that we may substitute the
photostat for the original.
Senator COOPER. Very well; let it be substituted. It has been identified,
and will be identified.
Mr. BALL. Yes, it will be; I will identify it for the record as a
photostat of an affidavit of Cecil J. McWatters made before Patsy Collins,
Notary Public of Dallas County, Tex. November 22, 1963.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit 377, and received
in evidence.)
Mr. Ball, Now, having read that, first of all, does that look like your
signature, Mr. McWatters?
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; it does.
Mr. BALL. Do you remember the circumstances under which you made that
affidavit?
Mr. McWATTERS. Well, I just told them the best I could remember.
Mr. BALL. I am showing this to you for the purpose of refreshing your
memory.
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, I know.
Mr. BALL. I know it has been several months.
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, I know what you mean.
Mr. BALL. And sometimes when you see something that you signed before it
refreshes your memory.
Mr. McWATTERS. It sure does.
Yes, that is what you mean, I know what you mean, I said that looked like
the man I saw.
Mr. BALL. In this affidavit, it says, it mentions the fact that when you
went to Marsalis and picked up a woman.
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.
Mr. BALL. You asked her if she knew the President had been shot, you told
us about that a few moments ago.
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.
Mr. BALL. She thought you were kidding, and you told her, "I told
her if she didn't believe me to ask the man behind her, that he had told me the
President was shot in the temple."
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Was the man, was that the teenager?
Mr. McWATTERS. That is right, sir, that was the teenage boy. In other
words, he was, I would say, around 17 or 18 years old.
Mr. BALL. You said here, "The man didn't say anything but he was
grinning."
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Do you think that happened?
Mr. McWATTERS. Well, when the lady asked him, he just kind of grinned,
279 Page
280 in
other words, and she said, "This is not a grinning or laughing
matter," or something to that effect I don't remember just exactly what she
did say.
Mr. BALL. Now you told them at that time you didn't know where you let
this man off.
Mr. McWATTERS. That is right, I didn't at that time, I didn't know where
he got off.
Mr. BALL. You told us a few moments ago you thought he got off another
place.
Mr. McWATTERS. That is right, sir.
Mr. BALL. What was that place?
Mr. McWATTERS. He got off at Brownley, because the man rode with me the
next day.
Mr. BALL. You went out there the next day, did you?
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. With an FBI man or a
Mr. McWATTERS. No, I mean--
Mr. BALL. The same teenager?
Mr. McWATTERS. The same teenager rode with me the next day.
Mr. BALL. And you noticed he got off there?
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, and I noticed, and I asked him, like I told him, I
said that I was--I thought that, you know, that he was, when he first got on
down there, I says, "From all indications, we had you kind of pinpointed as
the man who might have been mixed up in the assassination and everything."
And--
Mr. BALL. Do I understand the day after you made the affidavit, this
would be the 23d of November?
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.
Mr. BALL. That this same teenager got on your bus again?
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, he got on.
Mr. BALL. And you noticed where you let him off?
Mr. McWATTERS. I noticed where I let him off, yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Is that the reason that today you remember he got off?
Mr. McWATTERS. That is it today I remember, just like I say, I remember I
talked to him the next day, and he told me where he got on, and he told me where
he got on, and where he got off and where he lived, and, you know that--
Mr. BALL. Has he been on your bus since?
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.
Mr. BALL. He has?
Mr. McWATTERS. He has rode with me since.
Mr. BALL. Yes. I see. Did you give him a transfer that day?
Mr. McWATTERS. No, because he gets on and he lives within about two
blocks of the busline, in other words, where he gets off.
Mr. BALL. Do you know this boy's name?
Mr. McWATTERS. I believe his name is Milton Jones.
Mr. BALL. Milton Jones?
Mr. McWATTERS. Milton Jones. I don't believe I know where he lives, but I
pass where he lives. But he told me his name was Milton Jones and he told me he
was 17.
Mr. BALL. Did he ever tell you where he works?
Mr. McWATTERS. He told me that, I believe, he goes to school half a day,
I believe he said and I believe he goes home and he has a part-time job, but he
never did state where he works.
Mr. BALL. Did he tell you where he went to school?
Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir; he never did tell me where he went to school.
Mr. BALL. Or where he worked?
Mr. McWATTERS. Where he worked, either one.
Mr. BALL. You notice in the affidavit there it says, "This
man"--referring to the man who was grinning--
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.
Mr. BALL. "This man looks like the No. 1 man I saw in the lineup
today."
280 Page
281
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Who was the No. 2 man you saw in the lineup on November 22,
1963?
Mr. McWATTERS. Well, just like I say, he was the shortest man in the
lineup, in other words, when they brought these men out there, in other words,
he was about the shortest, and the lightest weight one, I guess, was the reason
I say that he looked like the man, because the rest of them were larger men
than--
Mr. BALL. Well, now, at that time, when you saw the lineup--
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Were you under the impression that this man that you saw in the
lineup and whom you pointed out to the police, was the teenage boy who had been
grinning?
Mr. McWATTERS. I was, yes, sir; I was under the impression--
Mr. BALL. That was the fellow?
Mr. McWATTERS. That was the fellow.
Mr. BALL. You were not under the impression then that night when you saw
the lineup that the No. 2 man in the lineup was the man who got off the bus, to
whom you had given a transfer?
Mr. McWATTERS. That is what I say. In other words, when I told them, I
said, the only way is the man, that he is smaller, in other words, he kind of
had a thin like face and he weighs less than any one of them. The only one I
could identify at all would be the smaller man on account he was the only one
who could come near fitting the description.
Mr. BALL. Let me ask you this, though. Did you tell them the man, the
smaller man, you saw in the lineup, did you tell them that you thought he was
the man who got off your bus and got the transfer or the man who was on the bus
who was the teenager who was grinning?
Mr. McWATTERS. Well, I really thought he was the man who was on the bus.
Mr. BALL. That stayed on the bus?
Mr. McWATTERS. That stayed on the bus.
Mr. BALL. And you didn't think he was the man who got off the bus and to
whom you gave a transfer?
Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. At that time you didn't?
Mr. McWATTERS. That is why I say I pinpointed that transfer on that boy
as far as that is concerned. But at first, just like I say, I really thought
from the height and weight of the two men, 1 mean was just like I say, was both
of them were small. In the lineup they had, in other words, bigger men, in other
words, he was the smallest man at the lineup-
Mr. BALL. We have got--we have this diagram that you have already drawn
of the bus which has several initials on it. Could you tell me where on the bus
this lady sat who told the teenager it was no grinning matter?
Mr. McWATTERS. Well, now, that is, in other words, I don't think at that
time now this teenager was still on the bus near, but I had a couple of more
passengers on there, I believe I had two women on there, but I can't recall
just, when I picked her up where she sat down on the bus.
Mr. BALL. Do you remember you said to the woman, "Look at that man
behind you?"
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, she was standing up here at the fare, paying fare.
Mr. BALL. And the teenager was where?
Mr. McWATTERS. He was sitting right here.
Mr. BALL. At the place "O", is that right?
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, at the place "O".
Mr. BALL. I see--
Mr. McWATTERS. That is where the conversation was going on.
Mr. BALL. Mr. McWatters, that affidavit you have there, will you look at
another item you have there?
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. "Today, November 22, 1963, about 12:40 p.m., I was driving
Marsalis Bus No. 1213."
Mr. McWATTERS. That is right.
281 731-218
O--64--vol.II---19 Page
282
Mr. BALL. First of all, you have referred to that as another bus, Munger
Bus, is that the same bus?
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; in other words, that number there is my run
number right here on my card.
Mr. BALL. I understand that, but do you call that run the Marsalis run as
well as the Munger run?
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. Well, here you can--let me show you here on this
schedule right here, Marsalis, Ramona, Elwood and Munger.
Mr. BALL. Can we take this and have a Xerox--
Mr. McWATTERS. You can just take the whole thing.
Mr. BALL. All right. We will have a Xerox of this and mark it 378, a
Xerox copy.
Will you identify that document and tell me what it is?
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit 378, for
identification.)
Mr. McWATTERS. This is a schedule, I will just say a bus schedule.
Mr. BALL. That is for the Marsalis-Ramona-Elwood-Munger run?
Mr. McWATTERS. That is correct.
Mr. BALL. Run 1213. Is this the run schedule that was in effect on
November 22, 1963?
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. BALL. It shows here at
Mr. McWATTERS. That is correct.
Mr. BALL. We will make a photostat of that and we will give you back the
original.
Mr. McWATTERS. You can keep that if you want to. They made another copy
of it.
Mr. BALL. All right, then, we will keep this as an original. Can this be
introduced into evidence, Senator?
Senator COOPER. Yes, let it be made a part of the evidence.
(The document heretofore marked for identification as Commission Exhibit
No. 378, was received in evidence.)
Mr. BALL. I have a few more questions to ask you, a few more questions,
Mr. McWatters.
Let's look again at this affidavit.
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. "I picked up a man on the lower end of town on Elm around
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Do you remember having picked up any man around the lower end
of town at Elm around
Mr. McWATTERS. Elm and
Mr. BALL. Yes.
Mr. McWATTERS. No, no, sir; I didn't pick up. I made a statement here I
picked up--
Mr. BALL. Take a look at it, "I picked up a man on the lower end of
town on Elm around
Mr. McWATTERS. No, I didn't. I picked--"I picked a man up at the
lower end of town at Elm," no, sir, I didn't pick up no man.
No, I was tied up in traffic there. Market Street is the--I must not have
read that very good when I signed that, because I sure didn't. No, I didn't.
Mr. BALL. Did you pick up a man at Record and
Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. You didn't?
Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir; that is not even no stop.
Mr. BALL. In other words, this statement is not an accurate statement?
Mr. McWATTERS. That is right, sir, because in fact that day the police
wouldn't let nobody, in other words they run them buses through but they
wouldn't let nothing stop there, in other words.
282 Page
283
Mr. BALL. Let's get back to that lineup.
Did you pick out one man or two men that night as people you had seen, as
a person you had seen before?
Mr. McWATTERS. Well, I picked out, the only one that I told them it was
the short man that I picked out up there.
Mr. BALL. And you thought he was the teenager whom you described?
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, first that is what I thought he was.
Mr. BALL. Now you have named him Milton Jones.
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, he was--
Mr. BALL. Now you realize you were mistaken in your identification that
night?
Mr. McWATTERS. That is right.
Mr. BALL. As I understand it, neither then nor now are you able to
identify or say that you have again seen the man that got off your bus to whom
you gave a transfer?
Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir; I couldn't. I could not identify him.
Mr. BALL. This
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. The same as your bus, the Marsalis bus?
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.
Mr. BALL. What is the difference in the time run, what time does the
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Using the same schedule, can you tell me at what time around
12:30 or so that the
Mr. McWATTERS. He is scheduled in there the same time as I am, 12:36.
Mr. BALL. 12:36. Was that bus in the line?
Mr. McWATTERS. No. In other words, that bus was behind me, in other
words, because when I got there as a general rule, when we pull up there every
day, in other words, I am coming in one direction and he is another, in other
words, most every day, we will pull up at this intersection at the same time.
Now, whichever way the light changes is who gets, in other words, who
gets in front of who. But at that day, I am sure that I was ahead of the
Mr. BALL. You are sure you were ahead of it?
Mr. McWATTERS. Because there wasn't another bus in front of me. I was the
first bus down there that was tied up in there in the traffic.
Mr. BALL. Did you see the
Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. You don't remember whether he was behind you or not?
Mr. McWATTERS. I don't remember whether he was behind me or not.
Mr. BALL. Can you transfer from your bus to the
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; sure can.
Mr. BALL. Any particular transfer point?
Mr. McWATTERS. Well, there are particular transfer points, but we don't
question anybody within the downtown section with a transfer.
Mr. BALL. If you gave a transfer to your bus, then that transfer would be
good on a
Mr. McWATTERS. That is right, it sure would.
Mr. BALL. Up to the place where you change courses?
Mr. McWATTERS. It would be accepted; yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Your course is westerly on Elm, is identical with that of the
Mr. McWATTERS. That is correct.
Mr. BALL. And from that point you go south on
Mr. McWATTERS. That is correct.
Mr. BALL. So that would be a normal transfer point, wouldn't it?
283 Page
284
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL.
Mr. McWATTERS. That would be a transfer. In other words, now, like I say,
Lamar is the general transfer point of where all the buses cross.
Mr. BALL. Now, that night of the lineup, when you identified this one
short man--
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.
Mr. BALL. As being probably the teenager that had been on the bus--
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Was there anything unusual in the conduct of anyone in the
lineup?
Mr. McWATTERS. No.
Mr. BALL. Did any man in the lineup talk more than anyone else?
Mr. McWATTERS. No, I believe they had a guy that asked them their
address, and they said, "address" and I don't know, he asked them, I
believe he asked some of them where they lived or some of them where they
worked, or I don't remember just what, in other words, he asked some enough,
every one of them to say some few words.
Mr. BALL. You could hear them talk?
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; you could hear them talk.
Mr. BALL. Was any one man boisterous, mean, loud, anything of that sort?
Mr. McWATTERS. No, not that I could tell any difference. They all talked
to me as, in other words, you just asked them their name and address. If they
did, I didn't pay any attention to it.
(At this point, Representative Ford entered the hearing room.)
Mr. BALL. This is Exhibit No. 376 that I will show you again. You have
indicated on the map the course of your bus south on Marsalis. Is there any
other bus route that goes south on any street east of Marsalis?
Mr. McWATTERS. You mean that crosses it this way?
Mr. BALL. No, goes south.
Mr. McWATTERS. Well, let's see.
Mr. BALL. Is there a main highway called Denley? Is there a bus route on
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. Bus route on
Mr. BALL. That goes south on
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Does that bus come anywhere near, does that bus run down Elm?
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Where does it turn to get to
Mr. McWATTERS. In other words, it turns, it goes just like the Marsalis
bus here goes, until he gets--
Mr. BALL. Let's start up at Elm here, Elm and
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Does it go by
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Have a starting point there?
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; it is a final point for it right there.
Mr. BALL. And it goes west on Elm?
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Where does it turn off Elm?
Mr. McWATTERS. It turns the same place as I do, in other words.
Mr. BALL. South on
Mr. McWATTERS. South on
Mr. BALL. And then does it go across the
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Then it turns on, how does it get onto
Mr. McWATTERS. It comes on out to Marsalis to, let's see, I have to find
the zoo. That is where it turns right there at the Marsalis Park, and turns and
goes over to Ewing, let's see, what is the name of that--this bus turns to the
left off Marsalis there, it is a park--there is a big expressway there and it is
the first street when it crosses over the expressway where it turns off of
Marsalis on
284 Page
285 Opera.
The name of the bus is Ramona, it is the same, in other words, it is the same
line as this other one.
Mr. BALL. As I understand it now the bus that goes down Ewing comes off
the Houston Street viaduct as far as, comes down he Houston Street viaduct as
far as Marsalis, does it?
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; and it goes south on Marsalis.
Mr. BALL. It goes south on Marsalis?
Mr. McWATTERS. That is right.
Mr. BALL. And it turns over to Ewing, that would be east on
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes; that would be east.
Mr. BALL. At or about what point?
Mr. McWATTERS. Well, in other words, that is the Marsalis Zoo is where it
is, after you cross the expressway there, it is the first street, Opera is the
name of that and it goes right down to Ewing.
Mr. BALL. Then at the corner of 11th, at the intersection of 11th and
Marsalis both buses travel the same route?
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; they sure do. Both buses travel the same route
to Marsalis and the Ramona bus on that part travel the same route.
Mr. BALL. Probably on the same route.
Now, I show you this document which is the bus schedule of Marsalis-Ramona-Elwood-
Munger, and it shows you leave St. Paul at 12:36 and you arrive at Lamar 12:40.
The bus transfers are punched you told me for 1 o'clock. We have a
transfer here that you have seen or we will show you in a few minutes as soon as
it gets here, which has a punch mark of 1 o'clock. You told Senator Cooper that
you usually punched within 15 minutes of the time you reached the transfer
points?
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.
Mr. BALL. If that is the case, what--
Mr. McWATTERS. You mean why did I have it punched at 1 o'clock?
Mr. BALL. Yes.
Mr. McWATTERS. Because I punch it p.m. In other words, I have a punch, I
am going to
Mr. BALL. Do you punch within 15 minutes of the time you reach the
transfer points?
Mr. McWATTERS. That is the way that the transfers are supposed to be cut.
Mr. BALL. Well, if you reach Lamar, if you were to reach Lamar at 12:40,
what time, according to the rules should you punch it?
Mr. McWATTERS. I should have punched it at 12:45.
Mr. BALL. At 12:45?
Mr. McWATTERS. But I would have to punch one book a.m. and another one
p.m., so I just punched both of them p.m.
Mr. BALL. In other words, what you do is punch on the hour rather than
the 45 and 15 minutes usually?
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.
Mr. BALL. In other words, your usual practice is not to punch on the
15-minute interval, is that right, but to punch on the hour?
Mr. McWATTERS. Well, just like I say within the closest of the hour like
that, in other words.
Mr. BALL. Suppose today you were wanting to punch some transfers at the
end of the line and you knew you were going to get to Lamar at 12:40. Would you
punch--what would you punch it?
Mr. McWATTERS. I work that run all the time, I punch at 1 o'clock every
day. As I say I worked it 2 years and as I say in order to keep from punching
one of them a.m. and one p.m., for the difference in the hour there, I just
punch them p.m.
Mr. BALL. I don't quite understand that. Doesn't your p.m. start at after
12 o'clock?
Mr. McWATTERS. Well, the way the transfers are there, did you notice how
285 Page
286 they
was, they run them until--see how 12:45 there, in other words, that is what they
use that up to a.m. in other words.
Mr. BALL. It is 12:45 a.m., it runs up to a.m.
Mr. McWATTERS. That is what they run it to a.m. In other words, after
12:45 or in there, in other words, everything is punched p.m.
Mr. BALL. In other words, everything in the hour from 12 on is punched
a.m., the day time, 12 to one is a.m., 12 to 12:45, for that hour, a transfer
good in that hour is punched a.m., is that right?
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, it can be punched a.m. up to, just like 12:45.
Mr. BALL. And the next punch is 1 o'clock and that is p.m?
Mr. McWATTERS. That is p.m.; yes, sir. That is the way they have them.
Representative FORD. The day that you punched this particular transfer.
November 22?
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.
Representative FORD. You punched them the same that day as you did every
other day?
Mr. McWATTERS. That is right. Every day, in other words, I just punch
them p.m. I punch them p.m., and in other words, so it will be just a straight
cut across it.
Representative FORD. Is that the usual practice for all bus drivers to
use this practice? Mr.
McWATTERS. The practice they are supposed to cut them within the quarter of the
hour, but in other words, I just have been working that run and I just, it is
p.m., and I just make one trip one way and one, back the other, and so I--all I
carry are two books of transfers and so I just punch two books p.m., using one
going one way at 1 o'clock and the other coming back at 2.
Representative FORD. This is the practice you have used for 2 years
approximately?
Mr. McWATTERS. That is right, when I worked that run, in other words,
when I am going one way at 1 o'clock, coming back from the other end of the line
I set them at 2. I am back in there at, my next trip I am back in there at
Mr. BALL. We have a couple of more pictures here. 378 and 379 which are
pictures of the interior of the bus--Nos. 379 and 380. (Picture marked for
identification as Commission Exhibit No. 374 is the same as Commission Exhibit
No. 379.)
I will first show you 379. Is that a picture of the bus from front to
rear of your bus?
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; that is the front and that is the rear.
Mr. BALL. Here is 380, is that a picture of the bus taken from the front
taken looking towards the rear?
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. I offer these in evidence, too.
Representative FORD. So admitted.
(The pictures referred to were marked Commission's Exhibits Nos. 379 and
380 and received in evidence.)
Mr. BALL. I have here an exhibit which I would like to have marked as 381
which can be identified as a transfer issued by Dallas Transit Company, Friday,
November 22, 1963.
Do you identify it, can you tell me, if you have ever seen that transfer
before?
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, that is my punch mark right on that there; p.m.
(The transfer was marked Commission Exhibit No. 381 for identification.)
Mr. BALL. You issued it, did you?
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Tell me when you issued it, on what run?
Mr. McWATTERS. I issued it on Marsalis and Munger line at I would say,
around to the best of my knowledge it would be around 12:40 or somewheres in
that vicinity on November 22.
Mr. BALL. And it has your punch mark, has it?
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; that is my punch mark.
Mr. BALL. Identify it punched in the p.m. section?
Mr. McWATTERS. Of the
286 Page
287
Mr. BALL. When did you punch it exactly? Where were you when you punched
it?
Mr. McWATTERS. I punched it before I left the end of the line, in other
words.
Mr. BALL. This is number 004459, is the transfer number. Entitled
"The Shoppers Transfer." Every transfer has a separate number, has it?
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; everyone has a separate number.
Mr. BALL. What we would like to do is mark a photostat of the, transfer
as 381A and substitute the photostat and we can return the transfer to the
custody of the FBI.
Representative FORD. The exhibit will be admitted.
(The photostat referred to was marked Commission Exhibit 381A and
received in evidence.)
Representative FORD. How many of those transfers did you issue on this
particular run?
Mr. McWATTERS. Well--
Representative FORD. Up to the time you passed the
Mr. McWATTERS. I really don't know because I didn't, see, I didn't know
anything--I didn't put out any--most of the transfers that you put out at this
time or that time of day are for elderly women which get the shopper's
transfers, in other words. It has got a line there, and it entitles them to a
free ride back to where they came from in other words, and that time of the
morning, because when I get downtown, in other words, you can catch a bus at Elm
Street going to any place that I would go without
having a transfer, in other words.
Representative FORD. Would you have any recollection of how many
passengers you picked up from the beginning of the line to the time that this
man got on at the middle of the block on
Mr. McWATTERS. Well, I don't--I recall that I didn't have very many
passengers that day, because I figured that everybody had done gone to town to
see the parade, to see the President, and it just wasn't what few passengers I
recall was mostly elderly women that was going into town. I
don't recall just how many of them I did have on the bus.
Representative FORD. But you did have these two men, the teenager and
this other young man?
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; that were on the bus.
Representative FORD. And you very specifically recall giving a transfer
to this woman with the suitcase and the man who was in the second seat on the
right-hand side?
Mr. McWATTERS. On the right side that got off. In other words, to the
best of my knowledge that is the only two transfers that I put out going through
town that I can recall at all, I mean, because I don't recall putting out any
more transfers than those two that I put out when I was held up there in
traffic.
Mr. BALL. Mr. McWatters, on this transfer is the name of Shopper's
Transfer. Does that have any significance?
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; that is what I was telling him. In other words,
if they want a Shoppers; well I put my punch mark in that Shoppers there, which
they cannot use it for a transfer, in other words, any more than other than--all
the stores, most of them in downtown Dallas, if you buy as much as a dollar's
worth between the period of ten and four in the afternoon they give you a little
white slip which entitled you to ride what is called the Shopper's Pass. It
rides you back, but in other words you have to, a passenger has to, ask for it
in other words.
When they say a Shopper, you take a punch and punch your punch mark where
it says Shoppers, but they are not supposed to use the transfer then to transfer
to another bus. They are supposed, in other words, where it is punched in the
store, get it exchanged for their return fare.
Mr. BALL. In other words, all your transfers have on them printed the
word "Shopper's Transfer"?
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; they do.
Mr. BALL. And in order to make it a Shopper's Transfer so that the
transfer can be exchanged for a merchandise coupon to ride home, it has to have
your punch in the Shopper's Transfer area, is that right?
Mr. McWATTERS. That is correct, yes, sir.
287 Page
288
Mr. BALL. Did you know, did you remember, an elderly woman getting on
your bus some place on Elm after you left
Mr. McWATTERS. Not that I recall.
Mr. BALL. Do you remember when this man, do you remember when this man
knocked on your window, and you opened your bus and let him on, some place
around Murphy or Griffin and Elm, that an elderly woman got up in the bus and
moved?
Did you see that or anything like that?
Mr. McWATTERS. No, I don't recall.
Mr. BALL. Do you know whether or not you left an elderly woman off down
around in the Oak Cliff area some place?
Mr. McWATTERS. The best I can recall I had two or three or four elderly
women, the best I can remember on the bus when I left town, but I don't recall
where any of them got off.
Mr. BALL. Do you know a woman named Mary Bledsoe? Did you pick anybody up
at
Mr. McWATTERS. I really don't--I really can't recall whether I did or
not.
Mr. BALL. I have no further questions.
Senator COOPER. I would like to ask a few, if I may.
Am I correct in saying that the direction of your bus at the time of
these events you have testified to it was going west on
Mr. McWATTERS. West on Elm. In other words, west, the streets of
Senator COOPER. But when you got to
Mr. McWATTERS. I turned south, that is correct.
Senator COOPER. Did your bus pass the
Mr. McWATTERS. Well--
Senator COOPER. I mean does it pass it directly?
Mr. McWATTERS. It doesn't pass it directly, no, sir. In other words,
where I turn to the left on
Senator COOPER. Now, as you reached
Mr. McWATTERS. You mean--yes, I have to pass
Senator COOPER. Now, this first affidavit you made on November 22--
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.
Senator COOPER. Which has been referred to in the testimony.
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.
Senator COOPER. It stated in this affidavit that, "I picked up a man
on the lower end of town on Elm around
Now, you picked up a man at that time it would have been after you passed
Mr. McWATTERS. It would have been after I passed Lamar.
Senator COOPER. The remainder of the affidavit, which has been made a
part of the testimony
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.
Senator COOPER. Refers to that you picked up a woman and you asked her if
she knew the President had been shot, and then the man--you asked her then to
speak to the man behind her.
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.
Senator COOPER. "Who said the President was shot in the
temple." Now, then, this incident that you testified to in this affidavit,
was after you had passed
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; that is right.
Senator COOPER. Was the man that you were talking about in this affidavit
the teenager?
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.
Senator COOPER. At the time this affidavit was made, were you asked about
any other man who may have been on the run that day at that time?
Mr. McWATTERS. I don't remember whether I was or not.
288 Page
289
Senator COOPER. What was it then that caused you at some time later to
remember that another man had got on the bus near Murphy and had left the bus,
as you have stated in 2 or 3 blocks in the vicinity of
Mr. McWATTERS. Well, just like I say, the best I can remember is the man,
I believe in fact beside the boy, I believe he was the only man on board the
bus. After I got to recall, in other words--
Senator COOPER. But what I am asking you is what it was that caused you
to remember the teenager at the time you made this affidavit on the 22d, and
what it was that, why it was that, you didn't at that time speak of the other
man who had got on the bus?
Mr. McWATTERS. That is what I say, it just didn't--it just doesn't
register, I don't know.
Senator COOPER. Were you asked whether or not any other man was on the
bus?
Mr. McWATTERS. I don't remember whether I was or not.
Senator COOPER. When was it that you remembered about the second man
being on the bus, the man that you now state got on around
Mr. McWATTERS. Well, I just studied and tried to remember everything that
I could. In other words, I still, you know, just try to see if I could remember
any incidents or anything that was said or done that I hadn't thought of and
everything.
Senator COOPER. I think you stated you did not give the teenager any
transfer?
Mr. McWATTERS. No, I don't--no.
Senator COOPER. Was the fact then that you were shown a transfer by the
police that called your attention to that?
Mr. McWATTERS. I guess that would probably be--
Senator COOPER. Another man?
Mr. McWATTERS. That would probably be the reason.
I don't know of any other reason that it would be unless it was the
transfer, that I can recall.
Senator COOPER. Are you absolutely certain that you did see another man
on that bus?
Mr. McWATTERS. Do you mean the day?
Senator COOPER. A man other than the teenager?
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; I picked up a man.
Senator COOPER. Where?
Mr. McWATTERS. Along about
Senator COOPER. Is that near Murphy?
Mr. McWATTERS. That is near Murphy, in other words, Murphy is over here
zig-zags,
Senator COOPER. Why was it then that when you made this affidavit, you
wouldn't remember that a man knocked on the door to get in the bus?
Mr. McWATTERS. Just like I say, I guess it never did dawn on me until I
just got to thinking about it and everything, and I had this boy, I mean was the
one I was referring to in that affidavit right there.
In other words, he was just kind of a slight build, so far as him and
Oswald, I guess they probably somewhere in the same size, I don't know. But I
was mistaken in that, in other words, that was the boy right there--
Senator COOPER. Did the police ask you if any man other than the
teenagers was on the bus?
Mr. McWATTERS. I don't recall whether they did or not.
Senator COOPER. Did you tell the police at that time on the 22d or the
Federal Bureau of Investigation on the 23d about a man knocking on the window
and wanting to get into the bus?
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, I believe I did.
Senator COOPER. What is it about this transfer that makes you know that
it was a transfer which you issued?
Mr. McWATTERS. Well, you look at that old punch mark, I guess as many
times as I have punched it--
Senator COOPER. Does each--does each-driver have a different punch?
289 Page
290
Mr. BALL. When you weren't here he showed us his punch and he punched it
for us. He has got his punch.
Mr. McWATTERS. Each driver has a different punch. They all are
registered. In other words, regardless of how many there are--that is my punch
right there--there is some shape or form different, just like I say the
superintendent has every man's name and a punch mark right on down, in other
words, so when--
Senator COOPER. Do you know whether the punches are different in the
shape that they make?
Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir; no, sir; I don't know anything about that. I
know--
Senator COOPER. What you are saying is, then, you have punched so many of
these transfer that you recognize your own punch?
Mr. McWATTERS. I can recognize my own punchmark. I don't think there is
supposed to be another--
Senator COOPER. Is there anything else on the transfer which indicates
that it was one which would be issued on your bus?
Mr. McWATTERS. Well, except only where it is punched--in other words, I
come off of
Senator COOPER. Did anyone tell you, either the police or the FBI or any
other officer or any other person, tell you at the time you made your first
affidavit or later that there was another man reported to have been on your bus
and got off?
Mr. McWATTERS. I don't recall.
Senator COOPER. Have you ever reported to the police the fact that you
have carried as a passenger since November 22d the teenager whom you have now
identified as having the name of Milton Jones?
Mr. McWATTERS. Did I ever report it to the police?
Senator COOPER. Yes.
Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir.
Senator COOPER. Have they ever been back to talk to you any more about
this?
Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir.
Senator COOPER. About this matter?
Mr. McWATTERS. They have never, been back to me. The only time they have
talked to me
Senator COOPER. Did you ever see--
Mr. McWATTERS. I beg pardon?
Senator COOPER. You saw--was any of the men in the police lineup ever
identified to you as being Lee Oswald?
Mr. McWATTERS. Any men in the--
Senator COOPER. Yes, I think you saw the men in the lineup, didn't you?
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.
Senator COOPER. Before you were asked to select a man in the lineup, did
the police or any officer identify any one of them as bearing the name of Lee
Oswald?
Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir; they never stated anything.
Senator COOPER. Later was he identified to you in any way?
Mr. McWATTERS. Was he identified to me?
Senator COOPER. As being Lee Oswald?
Mr. McWATTERS. No, they didn't tell me as far as saying, mentioning any
name Lee Oswald, it was never, the name Lee Oswald, I don't believe was ever
mentioned while we was back there.
Senator COOPER. Did you ever see this same man you call No. 2 in the
lineup again--did you ever go back there after that time and see this same
person again?
Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir.
Senator COOPER. Identified as No. 2?
Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir; I never did go back any more, that was the only
time I was ever there was the one on November 22, about 6 something in the
afternoon.
Senator COOPER. Have you seen photographs of a man who is named in those
photographs as being Lee Oswald?
Mr. McWATTERS. Have I saw them?
290 Page
291
Senator COOPER. Yes, sir.
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.
Senator COOPER. Well, now, you have seen this young man, Milton Jones,
several times since then?
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.
Senator COOPER. Now after having seen him several times since then, and
having seen these photographs of the man who is identified as Lee Oswald--
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.
Senator COOPER. Does Milton Jones look like Lee Oswald?
Mr. McWATTERS. Well, they both, just like I say, about the same height,
and same build, and everything, as far as identifying looking at a man in the
face of course, I know him now, distinctly.
Senator COOPER. But at this time would you identify him as Lee Oswald
from the photographs you have seen of Lee Oswald?
Mr. McWATTERS. Right now?
Senator COOPER. Yes.
Mr. McWATTERS. No. At the time, I couldn't then, in other words, even
from the recalling of what I seen him then, I mean just to say that the height
and size of him, no, I wouldn't make the statement that I could now.
Senator COOPER. Are you certain that you did see some man who knocked on
the window of your door of your bus and wanted to get in your bus at some point
near Murphy?
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; I am positive about that. There was--
Senator COOPER. You saw that man get off later?
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.
Senator COOPER. Before you got to--
Mr. McWATTERS. Before I got to
Senator COOPER. That is all.
Mr. McWATTERS. The best I can remember is that is where I issued two
transfers. That is the best I can remember.
Mr. BALL. To clear this matter up with your punch, you have your punch
there, have you?
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.
Mr. BALL. That was issued to you by the Dallas Transit Company?
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Does that make a different mark in a transfer than any other
punch issued to any other driver in the Dallas Transit Company?
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. It is a distinctive mark?
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; it is supposed to be, there is not supposed to
be any driver that has a punch that makes a punchmark like my punch.
Mr. BALL. So your supervisor could take this transfer and compare it with
his list in his office?
Mr. McWATTERS. That is right.
Mr. BALL. And he could see McWatters issued this transfer?
Mr. McWATTERS. That is right; that is the way, if they have any
complaint, any transfers brought in to him, he has a list. When he looked at the
punch-mark he knows the man's name, and his badge number.
Mr. BALL. And this document here which is 381, you have identified that
punchmark as the one made by your punch?
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; that punchmark was made by that punch right
there.
Mr. BALL. Now, there are on this transfer two punches, there is one in
p.m., and there is marked punch
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. But
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. If this transfer was issued around the Lamar area or
Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir.
291 Page
292
Mr. BALL. You always punch at the end of your destination?
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, that is the usual procedure on it.
Mr. BALL. Now, on one side of
Mr. McWATTERS. Well, that is on the opposite of town from--
Mr. BALL. The other side is Capital. Where is that?
Mr. McWATTERS. Capital, well, Capital is in north
Mr. BALL. Are those
Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir; I don't--you mean on the transfer?
Mr. BALL. Yes.
Mr. McWATTERS. Well, that is, in other words, we all--they have so many
of the lines listed, in other words, I believe they have two divisions, I
believe all the buses that work out of the east Dallas division have--
Mr. BALL. We can make this pretty simple. You have on this transfer
certain names. When you are running Marsalis-Ramona-Elwood-Munger, how many
possible punches would--location punches would you make?
Mr. McWATTERS. In other words, if I was--Marsalis when I left the end of
Marsalis out there I would punch my transfer Marsalis, if I left the end of
Ramona I would punch them Ramona. In other words, that is so they can't ride
them, in other words, they can't ride the transfer.
Mr. BALL. Now,
Mr. McWATTERS. That is right.
Mr. BALL. And Marsalis-Ramona-Elwood is the other, is that right?
Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. So you would punch one of those names?
Mr. McWATTERS. Going that way, while at Marsalis, I would punch the
Lakewood when I would leave Marsalis coming toward Lakewood, I would have
Lakewood on the front of my bus but I would punch the transfer Marsalis.
Mr. BALL. I have no further questions.
Representative FORD. Thank you very much, Mr. McWatters.
Mr. McWATTERS. Thank you, gentlemen. William
Wayne Whaley Page
292 TESTIMONY
OF WILLIAM WAYNE WHALEY RESUMED
Mr. BALL. Mr. Whaley, I have here an exhibit which I will mark 370.
(The document was marked Commission Exhibit No. 370 for identification.)
Mr. BALL. 370 is a photostat of a manifest of yours, and it is dated
November 22, 1963. I mark this 370. Do you recognize that?
Mr. WHALEY. That is the original trip sheet.
Mr. BALL. In your handwriting?
Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; in my handwriting.
Mr. BALL. I will offer this into evidence at this time, and the original
trip sheet as Exhibit No. 382.
Representative FORD. So admitted.
(Commission Exhibits Nos. 370 and 382 were received in evidence.)
Mr. BALL. I have here a bracelet which is marked 383. Take a look at it
and tell me if you have ever seen it before.
Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; as near as I can tell that is the bracelet he was
wearing the day I carried him, the shiny bracelet I was talking about.
Mr. BALL. You mentioned the fact that the man who sat in the front seat
of your cab, which you drove from the Greyhound Station on Lamar Street over to
500 North Beckley, had an identification bracelet on him.
Mr. WHALEY. Yes, it looked like an identification bracelet. It looks like
this one, sir, it was shiny, I couldn't tell exactly whether that was the
bracelet or not.
Mr. BALL. But it looks like one of them?
Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; it looks like it.
Mr. BALL. Offer this in evidence.
Representative FORD. So admitted.
(Commission Exhibit No. 383 was withdrawn and a photograph of the
bracelet was received as Commission Exhibit No. 383-A.)
292 Page
293
Representative FORD. What hand or what arm did he have it on?
Mr. WHALEY. He had it on the arm next to me, which was the left arm.
Representative FORD. Was it protruding below the sleeve or jacket?
Mr. WHALEY. His coatsleeve was like this when he stretches his arm out it
was short, that is when I saw it.
Representative FORD. Where was his hand when you saw it, if you can
recollect it?
Mr. WHALEY. Well, just moving. You know you catch any bright object, why
you notice it, that is how I noticed it. He was just moving his hand around.
When the old lady stuck her head in the door and asked me to call her a cab. why
he reached over to the door to open it like he told her she could have that one
but she decided that she would wait for the next one because he already had that
one. And that is when I saw it, sir. In the picture, I believe, I don't think he
had it on in that picture in the paper the next morning.
Representative FORD. This is something you clearly noticed while he was
riding in the car with you?
Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; I noticed it; yes, sir. I always notice watchbands,
unusual watchbands, and identification bracelets like these, because I make them
myself. I made this one.
Representative FORD. In other words, you have a particular interest in
them?
Mr. WHALEY. Yes, I particularly notice things like that.
Representative FORD. Did you notice anything unusual about it?
Mr. WHALEY. No, sir, it was just a common stretchband identification
bracelet. A lot of them are made of chain links and not stretchbands.
Stretchbands are unusual because there is very few of them.
Representative FORD. In other words, this was an unusual band?
Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; this one was a stretchband like the one you showed
me.
Representative FORD. It is sort of a hobby with you to make these kinds
of wristbands?
Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; I make watchbands like that.
Mr. BALL. Do you recall when you told, talked to the
Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir, I told them about the bracelet.
Mr. BALL. You told the FBI officers, also?
Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; but I don't remember saying it was heavy because I
wouldn't have known how heavy it was without handling it.
Mr. BALL. You described the bracelet?
Mr. WHALEY. I just described the bracelet as a shiny bracelet.
Mr. BALL. A moment ago you told us about this man getting into your cab
and an old lady coming up and asking for a cab.
Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did the man sitting next to you open the door?
Mr. WHALEY. He just started to, sir, just reached for door handle and she
said she wanted me to call one. She didn't want that.
Mr. BALL. Did the man who was sitting beside you in the cab say anything?
Mr. WHALEY. Only that she could have that one.
Mr. BALL. He said that?
Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. I think that is all.
Any other questions of this witness?
Did you describe the shirt that this man had on to the police?
Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir, I did.
Mr. BALL. What did you tell them?
Mr. WHALEY. To the best of my ability, I did, sir. I just told them it
was a dark colored shirt with what looked like a silver lining.
Mr. BALL. Were you shown the shirt later?
Mr. WHALEY. About, it was at least a week later, sir, an FBI man brought
the shirt over and showed it to me.
Mr. BALL. Is that the same shirt you saw here?
293 Page
294
Mr. WHALEY. I think it is, sir. I am not positive but it had the same
kind of silver streak in it.
Mr. BALL. What did you tell the FBI man who brought the shirt to you?
Mr. WHALEY. I told him to the best of my ability that was the shirt he
had on.
Mr. BALL. Did the man riding with you say anything at all except tell you
where he-wanted to go?
Mr. WHALEY. That is all, sir, except he said when we got to where he
wanted to go he said, "This will do fine," when I pulled over.
Mr. BALL. Now, in the police lineup now, and this man was talking to the
police and telling them he wanted a lawyer, and that they were trying to, you
say he said they were trying to, frame him or something of that sort--
Mr. WHALEY. Well, the way he talked that they were doing him an injustice
by putting him out there dressed different than these other men he was out there
with.
Mr. BALL. Now, did anyone, any policeman, who was there, say anything to
him?
Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; Detective Sergeant Leavelle, I believe it was, told
him that they had, would get him his lawyers on the phone, that they didn't
think they were doing him wrong by putting him out there dressed up.
Representative FORD. Did the man you identified have any reaction when
they brought the group out, did he have any reaction that you noticed at the
time you identified him?
Mr. WHALEY. Only that he was the only one that had the bruise on his
head, sir. The only one who acted surly. In other words, I told this Commission
this morning you wouldn't have had to have known who it was to have picked him
out by the way he acted. But he was the man that I carried in my taxicab. I told
them when I identified him. I didn't identify him as the man who shot the
President. I identified him as the man who rode from the Greyhound to 1500
Representative FORD. Did you point him out with your hand?
Mr. WHALEY. No, sir; I did not. They asked me which number he was
standing under and he was standing under No. 2.
Representative FORD. Could he hear you make this identification?
Mr. WHALEY. No, sir; he couldn't see me.
Representative FORD. He couldn't see you?
Mr. WHALEY. No, sir; they had the black silk screen that keeps the
prisoners from seeing the people who show up.
Mr. BALL. I have no further questions.
Senator COOPER. I have no questions.
Mr. BALL. Do you know a taxi driver named Darrell Click?
Mr. WHALEY. I may know his face, sir, but not his name.
Mr. BALL. You don't know his name?
Mr. WHALEY. We go mostly by numbers.
Mr. BALL. Okay, no further questions. The witness is excused.
Representative FORD. May we wait just a moment, please? Would you like to
make a statement, Mr. Powell?
Mr. POWELL. Mr. Chairman, I think I might say just this: I am here
representing Mr. Walter Craig, as I think the Commission understands. I have
been here the last two days. In a conversation with Mr. Rankin yesterday morning
we agreed that rather than my asking questions directly of witnesses, I would
make suggestions to Mr. Ball or to one of his associates, and I have been
following that practice yesterday and today, after consulting with Mr. Murray
who is also here for Mr. Craig, and Mr. Ball and his associates have followed up
these suggestions that we have made.
Representative FORD. The suggestions you have made have been transmitted
to Mr. Ball or his associates and have been asked of the various witnesses?
Mr. POWELL. That is correct.
Representative FORD. Any other questions? Thank you very much, Mr.
Whaley.
Mr. WHALEY. Thank you, sir. I am glad to be able to be of service.
(Whereupon, at 12:30 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)
294 CONTINUE WHALLEY>>> TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM W. WHALEY Volume VI
|