Volume VII
TESTIMONY OF GEORGE JEFFERSON APPLIN, JR.
The testimony of George Jefferson Applin, Jr. was taken at 4:05 p.m.,
on April 2, 1964, in the office of the U.S, attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant
counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. BALL. Will you stand up, Mr. Applin, and we--raise your right
hand to be sworn, please.
Mr. APPLIN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about
to give for this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing
but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. APPLIN. I do.
Mr. BALL. Will you be seated, please, and state your name for the
record.
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Mr. APPLIN. George Jefferson Applin, Jr.
Mr. BALL. Where do you live?
Mr. APPLIN. 714 East Hull, Denison, Tex.
Mr. BALL. What is your occupation?
Mr. APPLIN. Well, my occupation, common laborer, but I am working
for Phillips 66 there in Denison, service station.
Mr. BALL. You have come into Dallas from Denison, haven't you?
Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Well, that is about 68 miles?
Mr. APPLIN, Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And you are entitled to get compensation for your
transportation?
Mr. APPLIN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. And we'll have your name and address in the record, and I
will try to make arrangements for that information to take care of your
expenses. You came in when? This morning?
Mr. APPLIN. No; it was about 15 minutes after 2 o'clock, when I came
in here.
Mr. BALL. Came into Dallas?
Mr. APPLIN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. And-----Mr. APPLIN. No; I was here at 2 o'clock, but I had a flat and my car
stalled on me about three or four blocks over.
Mr. BALL. And you intend to return home tonight, do you?
Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. So, you won't have any hotel expense, will you?
Mr. APPLIN. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Now, tell me something about yourself, where you were
born and where you went to school, and how far in school, what you have
done since then?
Mr. APPLIN. Well, I was born in Madona Hospital in Denison, and
lived there near all my life.
Mr. BALL How old are you?
Mr. APPLIN. Twenty-two.
Mr. BALL. Did you go to school?
Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir; I went to LaMar School and junior high.
Mr. BALL And how far did you go? Finished junior high?
Mr. APPLIN. No, sir; I went to the eighth grade.
Mr. BALL. Have you been beyond the eighth grade?
Mr. APPLIN. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. What did you do after that?
Mr. APPLIN. Well, I helped my daddy some, and got odd jobs and
stuff.
Mr. BALL. Live with your mother now?
Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir; I do. I live with my parents.
Mr. BALL. Your mother and father?
Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. You have been doing mostly common labor, have you?
Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir; mostly common labor.
Mr. BALL. Ever been in trouble with the law of any sort?
Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir; I have.
Mr. BALL. What kind of trouble?
Mr. APPLIN. Burglary.
Mr. BALL. When was that?
Mr. APPLIN. In 1963.
Mr. BALL. Did you do any time?
Mr. APPLIN. No, sir; I got a probated sentence for it.
Mr. BALL. That is the only trouble you have ever had?
Mr. APPLIN. Well, for--except for minor traffic violations.
Mr. BALL. Outside of that you haven't had any trouble?
Mr. APPLIN. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Now, November 22, 1963, were you in Dallas?
Mr. APPLIN. Yes; I believe I was.
Mr. BALL. What were you doing here?
Mr. APPLIN. Well, I was working for the Rollform Corp.
Mr. BALL. How do you spell it?
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Mr. APPLIN. Well, I have got one of their checks--check stubs here in
my pocket, I believe. At least I think I have. Here it is [indicating].
Mr. BALL. What were you doing in Dallas?
Mr. APPLIN. Working.
Mr. BALL. Working here in Dallas?
Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What kind of work?
Mr. APPLIN. Well, I was working as, open-head crane operator, and
painter and front-end loader.
Mr. BALL. Did you go to the picture show that afternoon?
Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. BALL. How did you happen to be off duty that day?
Mr. APPLIN. They was installing a new cutting press for the rollers,
and they did not need me, so, they let me off for 2 days.
Mr. BALL. For 2 days?
Mr. APPLIN. For 2 days.
Mr. BALL. What did you do? Go to the picture show?
Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. BALL. What time of day did you go there?
Mr. APPLIN. Well, actually, I went to---I was over in Oak Cliff, around
about, I guess, about 12 o'clock, I imagine is what time it was. I was there
and the show hadn't opened up, so, I was sitting in my car listening to the
radio up until the time that the show opened.
Mr. BALL. You went in the show when it opened?
Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Paid your way?
Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And where did you take your seat? What part of the
theatre?
Mr. APPLIN. About six rows down, I got in the middle aisle, about the
middle of the chairs.
Mr. BALL. Middle aisle, six rows from the rear?
Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And you were how far from the middle aisle into the row of
seats?
Mr. APPLIN. Well, about--seemed quite a little while since I thought
about this. I guess I was about four or five seats over from the aisle.
Mr. BALL. From the aisle. Now, did something happen there during
that showing of that picture that you remember?
Mr. APPLIN. Well, I know this much, Audie Murphy introduced the
picture.
Mr. BALL. Then some police officers came in there?
Mr. APPLIN. No, sir; the lights came on.
Mr. BALL. Then what do you remember happening?
Mr. APPLIN. I seen the officers come down the right-hand aisle.
Mr. BALL. From the rear, or from the front?
Mr. APPLIN. From the rear.
Mr. BALL. Come in from the screen side, or the place you enter?
Mr. APPLIN. Where you enter it.
Mr. BALL. From your rear?
Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir; came in on the right-hand aisle over against the
wall.
Mr. BALL. Did he have anything in his hands?
Mr. APPLIN. Yes; I believe he had a shotgun. Might have been a rifle.
Mr. BALL. What else did you see?
Mr. APPLIN. Well, when I seen him, I was wondering what was the
matter and what about the lights.
Mr. BALL. You got up and ran up to the front?
Mr. APPLIN. Went to the front to find out what was happened--was
happened-- happening. As I was going up an officer passed me going down
and I stopped to find out.
Mr. BALL. Did you ask him?
Mr. APPLIN. No, sir; he passed me before I got a chance to ask him.
Mr. BALL. What did he do?
Mr. APPLIN. Went to the front and turned around and started back
up.
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Mr. BALL. Started back up the aisle?
Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Towards you?
Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And what did you see him do?
Mr. APPLIN. Well, he stopped and asked two boys sitting down in the
front, asked them to stand up and----Mr. BALL. Did he search them?
Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir; they shuffled them down.
Mr. BALL. Did he search you?
Mr. APPLIN. No, sir; they came on up to Oswald, where he was
sitting.
Mr. BALL. Where was he sitting?
Mr. APPLIN. I--he was sitting, I guess, about 3 or 4 rows down.
Mr. BALL. You mean from the rear of the theatre?
Mr. APPLIN. From the rear.
Mr. BALL. And how far over from the aisle?
Mr. APPLIN. I guess that would be about three seats. They was
sitting about two or three seats.
Mr. BALL. What did you see him do?
Mr. APPLIN. He started off, the officer said, "Will you stand up,
please?" And he stood up.
Mr. BALL. How close were you to the officer and this man when you
heard the officer say, "Stand up"?
Mr. APPLIN. I guess it was about--it was not over four seats down
from the back, rear.
Mr. BALL. Were you at the rear?
Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir; I was at the rear of the show.
Mr. BALL. You were at the rear of the show?
Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir; well, there was a partition here. A partition here
[indicating], and there was about, oh, I guess about four rows down from
me.
Mr. BALL. All right. In other words, the officer hadn't reached you yet,
when he asked Oswald to stand up?
Mr. APPLIN. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. You stood up and went toward the rear of the theatre, did
you?
Mr. APPLIN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. And going to ask the officer what was going on?
Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Then, you were about four rows away from where Oswald
was----Mr. APPLIN. Apprehended.
Mr. BALL. And did you hear the officer, what he said?
Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir; heard mainly what both of them said.
Mr. BALL. What did the officer say?
Mr. APPLIN. The officer said, "Will you stand up, please."
Mr. BALL. What did the man say?
Mr. APPLIN. Well, he just stood up.
Mr. BALL. Did he say anything?
Mr. APPLIN. No, sir; I didn't hear him say anything at that time.
Mr. BALL. And what happened then?
Mr. APPLIN. Well, when he stood up, the officer stepped over to
search him down. The officer, Oswald, or the man, took a swing at him.
When he did, the officer grabbed him.
Mr. BALL. Took a swing at him with his fist?
Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir; he did.
Mr. BALL. With his left or right?
Mr. APPLIN. Right fist.
Mr. BALL. Took a swing at him and what happened then?
Mr. APPLIN. Well, the officer, I heard him say, "Here he is." And
during the proceeding of that, I guess about 5 or 10 seconds later, there
was another--I think it was two officers, or one, passed me and ran down
there to him.
Mr. BALL. Did you see a gun?
Mr. APPLIN. Well, the gun didn't come into view until after about four
or five officers were there.
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Mr. BALL. Then did you see a gun?
Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir; but only--there was one gun. The pistol. It
came into view before any of the other officers got there.
Mr. BALL. That is what I mean. What do you say happened about
that? Who pulled a gun?
Mr. APPLIN. Well, anyhow, the officer was facing this way
[indicating] and Oswald was facing this way [indicating]. And then the gun
was pointed out that way [indicating].
Mr. BALL. Wait a minute. I can't follow you when you say it was
"this way," sir. You told me that this officer asked Oswald to stand up?
Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did he stand up?
Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir; he did.
Mr. BALL. Then did he put his hand some place on Oswald?
Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir; along about
Mr. BALL. Where?
Mr. APPLIN. I guess about his hips.
Mr. BALL. Then what did Oswald do?
Mr. APPLIN. He took a right-hand swing at him.
Mr. BALL What did the officer do?
Mr. APPLIN. The officer grabbed him then.
Mr. BALL. Had you seen the pistol up to that time?
Mr. APPLIN. No, sir; there was not one in view then.
Mr. BALL. How soon after that did you see the pistol?
Mr. APPLIN. I guess it was about--I guess it was about 2 or 3
seconds.
Mr. BALL. Who pulled the pistol?
Mr. APPLIN. I guess it was Oswald, because--for one reason, that he
had on a short sleeve shirt, and I seen a man's arm that was connected to
the gun.
Mr. BALL. What did the officer do?
Mr. APPLIN. Well, the officer was scuffling with him there, and----Mr. BALL. Did you hear anything?
Mr. APPLIN. Well, about the only thing I heard was the snap of the
gun and the officer saying, "Here he is."
Mr. BALL. You heard the snap of a gun?
Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Are you familiar with guns?
Mr. APPLIN. Well, yes, sir; I am familiar with a few guns.
Mr. BALL. Pistols? Have you ever shot a pistol?
Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir; I have shot my daddy's nine-shot .22 pistol.
Mr. BALL. Sounded like a hammer of a pistol failing?
Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Then what happened after that? You say several officers
came down?
Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir; they started wrestling and scuffling with him.
Mr. BALL. How many of them?
Mr. APPLIN. Well, there was about five officers, I believe.
Mr. BALL. Did you see any officers strike him?
Mr. APPLIN. I seen one strike him with a shotgun.
Mr. BALL. How did he do it?
Mr. APPLIN. He grabbed the muzzle of the gun and drawed it back
and swung and hit him in the back.
Mr. BALL. With what?
M. APPLIN. With the butt end of the gun.
Mr. BALL. Looked like a hard blow?
Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir; it--I guess-it was. You could--yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And he struck Oswald where?
Mr. APPLIN. In the back.
Mr. BALL. What part of the back?
Mr. APPLIN. Well, somewheres along in the middle of the back,
somewheres.
Mr. BALL. With the butt end of a shotgun?
Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir.
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Mr. BALL. Did you see the officer strike Oswald with his fist?
Mr. APPLIN. No, sir; I do not believe so.
Mr. BALL. Now, how many officers were struggling with Oswald
when you saw the officer strike him with the butt end of the shotgun?
Mr. APPLIN. I believe about four.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever see them handcuff Oswald?
Mr. APPLIN. Uh-huh?
Mr. BALL. Did you see them handcuff the man?
Mr. APPLIN. No, sir; I didn't actually see the handcuffing.
Mr. BALL. What did you see them do after the struggle?
Mr. APPLIN. Well, they were scuffling, and they were over to the
middle, about the far side of the aisle, and come up the other side of the
aisle.
Mr. BALL. With the man?
Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And then when they went out, did they come out through
the doors?
Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir; they came up through and one of the officers
hollered out, "Don't let nobody see him," and they came in right behind me.
Mr. BALL. In behind you?
Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And went on out?
Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And did you go out and follow them out?
Mr. APPLIN. No, sir; I went out to the candy counter out there and the
officer said, if there's anybody in there that seen it--and asked--there was
about two or three, the candyman himself, and said--that one boy said that
he seen him, through the front--I mean out from behind the picture where it
came out---supposed to came out behind the picture.
Mr. BALL. Did you give them your name there?
Mr. APPLIN. He asked my name and address and where I was staying
at the time.
Mr. BALL. Later did you go down to the police station and make a
statement?
Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. BALL. When?
Mr. APPLIN. Well, it was after--I guess after they got everybody's
name. I rode down with three officers.
Mr. BALL. That same day, did you?
Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. You didn't go back to the picture show?
Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir; I did. There was a patrolman that carried me
back out and I was going to see the rest of it, but I never did get back in
time to.
Mr. BALL. You didn't get to see the show?
Mr. APPLIN. Well, I seen part of it, but I didn't get to see all of it.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever see the man they arrested at the theatre?
Mr. APPLIN. No, sir; I didn't see him after that.
Mr. BALL. Now, I have talked to you a little while before we took your
deposition, didn't I?
Mr. APPLIN. I wasn't actually; no, sir.
Mr. BALL. Well, I mean, you and I came up----Mr. APPLIN. Oh, yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And we sat and talked a few minutes?
Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir; we did.
Mr. BALL. And you have told us everything that you told me
before----Mr. APPLIN. This was taken here?
Mr. BALL. Before it was taken.
Mr. APPLIN. Yes; I believe I did.
Mr. BALL. This will be written up, and you will have a chance to read
it and sign it. You can waive your signature and we'll forward it to the
Commission just as you have said it here in the way this young lady has
written it up. Does it make any difference to you now?
Mr. APPLIN. No, sir; it don't make any difference. Anyway you do it.
Mr. BALL. You are waiving your signature then, are you?
Mr. APPLIN. Well, I will sign it if you want me to.
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Mr. BALL. You don't have to if you don't want to. In other words, but
you may if you want to.
Mr. APPLIN. I can sign it. If I sign it then you won't have any trouble
with it, will you?
Mr. BALL. Well, no.
Mr. APPLIN. Well, then, I will sign it for you then.
Mr. BALL. Okay, fine, that is all, Mr. Applin.
Mr. APPLIN. But, there is one thing puzzling me.
Mr. BALL. What is that?
Mr. APPLIN. And I don't even know if it has any bearing on the case,
but there was one guy sitting in the back row right there where I was
standing at, and I said to him, I said, "Buddy, you'd better move. There is a
gun." And he says--just sat there. He was just back like this. Just like this.
Just watching.
Mr. BALL. Just watching the show?
Mr. APPLIN. No; I don't think he could have seen the show. Just
sitting just like this, just looking at me.
Mr. BALL. Did you know the man?
Mr. APPLIN. No; I didn't.
Mr. BALL. Ever seen him since?
Mr. APPLIN. No, sir; didn't. I tapped him on the shoulder and said,
"Buddy, you'd better move," and----Mr. BALL. Were you scared?
Mr. APPLIN. Well, when I seen the gun I was.
Mr. BALL. Did you tell the police officer about this man?
Mr. APPLIN. No, sir; at the time, I didn't think about it, but I did tell--I
didn't even think about it when I went before the Secret Service man, but I
did tell one of the FBI men about it.
Mr. BALL. Okay. I guess that is all, Mr. Applin. Thank you very much.
Mr. APPLIN. All right.
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