Dr.
SHAW Volume IV
TESTIMONY
OF DR. ROBERT ROEDER SHAW
Senator COOPER. The Commission will come to order.
Dr. Shaw, you understand that the purpose of this inquiry is taken under
the order of the President appointing the Commission on the assassination of
President Kennedy to investigate all the facts relating to his assassination.
Dr. SHAW. I do.
Senator COOPER. And report to the public.
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give before this
Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so
help you God?
Dr. SHAW. I do.
Senator COOPER. Do you desire an attorney to be with you?
Dr. SHAW. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Will you state your full name for the record, please?
Dr. SHAW. Robert Roeder Shaw.
Mr. SPECTER. What is your profession, please?
Dr. SHAW. Physician and surgeon.
Mr. SPECTER. Will you outline briefly your educational background?
Dr. SHAW. I received my B.A. degree from the
Following that I served 2 years at the
On August 1, 1938, I entered private practice limiting my practice to
thoracic surgery in
Mr. DULLES. What kind of surgery?
Dr. SHAW. Thoracic surgery or surgery of the chest,
101
Page
102
I have practiced there continuously except for a period from June 1942,
until December 1945, when I was a member of the Medical Corps of the Army of the
I was away again from December 1961, until June of 1963, when I was head
of the MEDICO team and performed surgery at
Mr. DULLES. Will you tell us a little bit about MEDICO.
Is that the ship?
Dr. SHAW. No; that is HOPE. MEDICO was formed by the late Dr. Tom Dooley.
Mr. DULLES. Yes; I know him very well.
He was the man in
Dr. SHAW. Yes, sir; this was one of their projects.
Mr. DULLES. I see.
Dr. SHAW. I returned to----
Mr. DULLES. An interesting project.
Dr. SHAW. I returned to
In this position I also am chief of thoracic surgery at
Mr. SPECTER. Are you licensed to practice medicine in the State of
Dr. SHAW. I am.
Mr. SPECTER. Are you certified?
Dr. SHAW. By the board of thoracic surgery you mean?
Mr. SPECTER. Yes; by the board of thoracic surgery.
Dr. SHAW. Yes; as of 1948.
Mr. SPECTER. What experience, if any, have you had, Dr. Shaw, with bullet
wounds?
Dr. SHAW. I have had civilian experience, both in the work at
The chief experience I had, however, was during the Second World War when
I was serving as chief of the thoracic surgery center in
Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate as to the total number of bullet
wounds you have had experience with?
Dr. SHAW. It would be approximately 1,000, considering the large number
of admissions we had in
Mr. SPECTER What were your duties in a general way on November 22, 1963.
Dr. SHAW. On that particular date I had been at a conference at
Woodlawn and the Children's Hospital are approximately a mile away from
Mr. SPECTER. Were you called upon to render any aid to President Kennedy
on November 22?
Dr. SHAW. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Were you called upon to render medical aid to Gov. John B.
Connally on that day?
Dr. SHAW. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe briefly the circumstances surrounding your
being called into the case.
Dr. SHAW. As I was driving toward the medical school I came to an
intersection of
There is also a railroad crossing at this particular point.
I saw an open limousine pass this point at high speed with a police
escort. We were held up in traffic
because of this escort Finally, when
we were allowed to proceed,
102
Page
103
I
went on to the medical school expecting to eat lunch. I had the radio on because
it was the day that I knew the President was in Dallas and would be eating lunch
at the Trade Mart which was not far away, and over the radio I heard the report
that the President had been shot at while riding in the motorcade.
I went on to the medical school and as I entered the medical school a
student came in and joined three other students, and said the President has just
been brought into the emergency room at Parkland, dead on arrival.
The students said, "You are kidding, aren't you?" and he said,
"No, I am not. I saw him, and Governor Connally has-been shot through the
chest."
Hearing that I turned and walked over to the emergency room, which is
approximately 150 yards from. the medical school, and entered the emergency
room.
Mr. SPECTER. At approximately what time did you arrive at the emergency
room where Governor Connally was situated?
Dr. SHAW. As near as I could tell it was about 12:45.
Mr. SPECTER. Who was with Governor Connally, if anyone, at that time, Dr.
Shaw?
Dr. SHAW. I immediately recognized two of the men who worked with me in
thoracic surgery, Dr. James Duke and Dr. James Boland, Dr. Giesecke, who is an
anesthesiologist, was also there along with a Dr. David Mebane who is an
instructor in general surgery.
Mr. SPECTER. What was Governor Connally's condition at that time, based
on your observations?
Dr. SHAW. The Governor was complaining bitterly of difficulty in
breathing, and of pain in his right chest. Prior
to my arriving there, the men had very properly placed a tight occlusive
dressing over what on later examination proved to be a large sucking wound in
the front of his right chest, and they had inserted a rubber tube between the
second and third ribs in the front of the right chest, carrying this tube to
what we call a water seal bottle.
Mr. SPECTER What was the purpose?
Dr. SHAW. Yes; this is done to reexpand the right lung which had
collapsed due to the opening through the chest wall.
Mr. SPECTER. What wounds, if any, did you observe on the Governor at that
time?
Dr. SHAW. I observed no wounds on the Governor at this time.
It wasn't until he was taken to the operating room that I properly
examined him from the standpoint of the wound.
Mr. SPECTER. How long after your initial viewing of him was he taken to
the operating room?
Dr. SHAW. Within about 5 minutes. I
stepped outside to talk to Mrs. Con-natty because I had been given information
by Dr. Duke that blood had been drawn from the Governor, sent to the laboratory
for cross-matching for blood that we knew would be necessary, that the operating
room had already been alerted, and that they were ready and they were merely
awaiting my arrival.
Mr. SPECTER. How was Governor Connally transported from the emergency
room to the operating room?
Dr. SHAW. On a stretcher.
Mr. SPECTER. And was he transported up an elevator as well?
Dr. SHAW. Yes. It is two
floors above the emergency rooms.
Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe what happened next in connection with
Governor Connally's----
Mr. DULLES. Could I ask a question, putting in this tube is prior to
making an incision?
Dr. SHAW. Yes; a stab wound.
Mr. DULLES. Just a stab wound?
Dr. SHAW. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. What treatment next followed for Governor Connally, Doctor?
Dr. SHAW. He was taken to the operating room and there Dr. Giesecke
started the anesthesia. This entails giving an intravenous injection of sodium
pentothal and then after the Governor was asleep a gas was used, that will be on
the anesthetic record there.
103
Page
104
Mr. SPECTER. Do you know at approximately what time this procedure was
started?
Dr. SHAW. I will have to refresh my memory again from the record.
We had at the time I testified before, we had the
Mr. SPECTER. Permit me to make available to you a copy of the Parkland
Memorial Hospital operative record and let me ask you, first of all, if you can
identify these two pages on an exhibit heretofore marked as Commission Exhibit
392 as to whether or not this constitutes your report?
Dr. SHAW. Yes; this is a transcription of my dictated report of the
operation.
Mr. SPECTER. Are the facts set forth therein true and correct?
Dr. SHAW. Yes. On this it
states that the operation itself was begun at 1300 hours or 1 o'clock, 1 p.m.,
and that the actual surgery started at 1335 or 1:35 p.m.
The operation was concluded by me at 3--1520 which would be 3:20 p.m.
Mr. SPECTER. You have described, in a general way, the chest wound.
What other wounds, if any, was Governor Connally suffering from at the
time you saw him?
Dr. SHAW. I will describe then the wound of the wrist which was obvious.
He had a wound of the lower right forearm that I did not accurately examine
because I had already talked to Dr. Gregory while I was scrubbing for the
operation, told him that this wound would need his attention as soon as we were
able to get the chest in a satisfactory condition.
There was also, I was told, I didn't see the wound, on the thigh, I was
told that there was a small wound on the thigh which I saw later.
Mr. SPECTER. When did you first have an opportunity then to examine
Governor Connally's wound on the posterior aspect of his chest?
Dr. SHAW. After the Governor had been anesthetized.
As soon as he was asleep so we could manipulate him--before that time it
was necessary for an endotracheal tube to be in place so his respirations could
be controlled before we felt we could roll him over and accurately examine the
wound entrance. We knew this was the wound exit.
Mr. SPECTER. This [indicating an area below the right nipple on the
body]?
Dr. SHAW. Yes.
Mr. DULLES. How did you know it was a wound exit.
Dr. SHAW. By the fact of its size, the ragged edges of the wound.
This wound was covered by a dressing which could not be removed until the
Governor was anesthetized.
Mr. SPECTER. Indicating this wound, the wound on the Governor's chest?
Dr. SHAW. Yes; the front part.
Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe in as much detail as you can the wound on
the posterior side of the Governor's chest?
Dr. SHAW. This was a small wound approximately a centimeter and a half in
its greatest diameter. It was
roughly elliptical. It was just
medial to the axilliary fold or the crease of the armpit, but we could tell that
this wound, the depth of the wound, had not penetrated the shoulder blade.
Mr. SPECTER. What were the characteristics, if any, which indicated to
you that it was a wound of entrance then?
Dr. SHAW. Its small size, and the rather clean cut edges of the wound as
compared to the usual more ragged wound of exit.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, I hand you a diagram which is a body diagram on
Commission Exhibit No. 679, and ask you if, on the back portion of the figure,
that accurately depicts the point of entry into Governor Connally's back?
Dr. SHAW. Yes. The depiction
of the point of entry, I feel is quite accurate.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, with respect to the front side of the body, is the
point of exit accurately shown on the diagram?
Dr. SHAW. The point is----
Mr. SPECTER. We have heretofore, may the record show the deposition
covered much the same ground with Dr. Shaw, but the diagrams used now are new
diagrams which will have to be remarked in accordance with your recollection.
Dr. SHAW. Yes. Because I
would have to place they are showing here the angle.
104
Page
105
Mr. DULLES. Is this all on the record?
Mr. SPECTER. It should be.
Dr. SHAW. We are showing on this angle, the cartilage angle which it
makes at the end of the sternum.
Mr. SPECTER. That is an inverted V which appears in front of the body?
Dr. SHAW. Now the wound was above that.
They have shown it below that point so the wound would have to be placed
here as far as the point is concerned.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you draw on that diagram a more accurate depiction of
where the wound of exit occurred?
Dr. SHAW. Do you want me to initial this?
Mr. SPECTER. Yes; if you please, Dr. Shaw.
I hand you another body diagram marked Commission Exhibit 680 and I will
ask you if that accurately depicts the angle of decline as the bullet passed
through Governor Connally?
Dr. SHAW. I think the declination of this line is a little too sharply
downward. I would place it about 5°
off that line.
Mr. SPECTER. Will you redraw the line then, Dr. Shaw, and initial it,
indicating the more accurate angle?
Dr. SHAW. The reason I state this is that as they have shown this, it
would place the wound of exit a little too far below the nipple.
Also it would, since the bullet followed the line of declination of the
fifth rib, it would make the ribs placed in a too slanting position.
Mr. SPECTER. What operative procedures did you employ in caring for the
wound of the chest, Dr. Shaw.
Dr. SHAW. The first measure was to excise the edges of the wound of exit
in an elliptical fashion, and then this incision was carried in a curved
incision along the lateral portion of the right chest up toward the right axilla
in order to place the skin incision lower than the actual path of the bullet
through the chest wall.
After this incision had been carried down to the level of the muscles
attached to the rib cage, all of the damaged muscle which was chiefly the
serratus anterior muscle which digitates along the fifth rib at this position,
was cleaned away, cut away with sharp dissection.
As soon as--of course, this incision had been made, the opening through
the parietal pleura, which is the lining of the inside of the chest was very
obvious. It was necessary to trim away several small fragments of the rib which
were still hanging to tags of periosteum, the lining of the rib, and the ragged
ends of the rib were smoothed off with a rongeur.
Mr. SPECTER. What damage had been inflicted upon a rib, if any, Dr. Shaw?
Dr. SHAW. About 10 centimeters of the fifth rib
starting at the, about the mid-axillary line and going to the anterior axillary
line, as we describe it, or that would be the midline at the armpit going to the
anterior lateral portion of the chest had been stripped away by the missile.
Mr. SPECTER. What is the texture of the rib at the point where the
missile struck?
Dr. SHAW. The texture of the rib here is not of great density.
The cortex of the rib in the lateral portions of our ribs, is thin with
the so-called cancellus portion of the rib being very spongy, offering very
little resistance to pressure or to fracturing.
Mr. SPECTER. What effect, if any, would the striking of that rib have had
to the trajectory of the bullet?
Dr. SHAW. It could have had a slight, caused a slight deflection of the
rib, but probably not a great deflection of the rib, because of the angle at
which it struck and also because of the texture of the rib at this time.
Mr. SPECTER. You say deflection of the rib or deflection of the bullet?
Dr. SHAW. Deflection of the bullet, I am sorry.
Mr. SPECTER. Was any metallic substance from the bullet left in the
thoracic cage as a result of the passage of the bullet through the Governor's
body?
Dr. SHAW. No. We saw no
evidence of any metallic material in the X-ray that we had of the chest, and we
found none during the operation.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you brought the X-rays with you, Dr. Shaw, from
105
731-220 O---64---vol.IV----8
Page
106
Dr. SHAW. Yes; we have them here.
Mr. SPECTER. May the record show we have available a viewer for the
X-rays.
Dr. Shaw, would you, by use of the viewer, exhibit the X-rays of the
Governor's chest to show more graphically that which you have heretofore
described?
Dr. SHAW. This is the first X-ray that was taken, which was taken in the
operating room with the Governor on the operating table, and at this time
anesthetized. The safety pin that
you see here is used, was used, to secure the tube which had been put between
the second and third rib in expanding the Governor's lung.
We can dimly see also the latex rubber tube up in the chest coming to the
apex of the chest.
The variations that we see from normal here are the fact that first,
there is a great amount of swelling in the chest wall which we know was due to
bleeding and bruising of the tissues of the chest wall, and we also see that
there is air in the tissues of the chest wall here and here.
It is rather obvious.
Mr. SPECTER. When you say here and here, you are referring to the outer
portions, showing on the X-ray moving up toward the shoulder area?
Dr. SHAW. Yes; going from the lower chest up to the region near the angle
of the shoulder blade.
The honey framework of the chest, it is obvious that the fifth rib, we
count ribs from above downward, this is the first rib, second rib, third rib,
fourth rib, fifth rib, that a portion of this rib has been shattered, and we can
see a few fragments that have been left behind.
Also the rib has because of being broken and losing some of its
substance, has taken a rather inward position in relation to the fourth and the
sixth ribs on either side.
Mr. SPECTER. What effect was there, if any, on the upper portion of that
rib?
Dr. SHAW. This was not noticed at the time of this examination, Mr.
Specter. However, in subsequent examinations we can tell that there was a
fracture across the rib at this point due to the rib being struck and bent.
Mr. SPECTER. When you say this point, will you describe where that point
exists on the X-ray?
Dr. SHAW. This is a point approximately 4 centimeters from its connection
with the transverse process of the spine.
Mr. SPECTER. And is the fracture, which is located there, caused by a
striking there or by the striking at the end of the rib?
Dr. SHAW. It is caused by the striking at the end of the rib.
Mr. SPECTER. Fine. What else
then is discernible from the viewing of the X-ray, Dr. Shaw?
Dr. SHAW. There is a great amount of, we would say, obscuration of the
lower part of the right lung field which we know from subsequent examination was
due to blood in the pleural cavity and also due to a hematoma in the lower part
of the right lower lobe and also a severe laceration of the middle lobe with it
having lost its ability to ventilate at that time.
So, we have both an airless lung, and blood in the lung to account for
these shadows.
Mr. SPECTER. Is there anything else visible from the X-ray which is
helpful in our understanding of the Governor's condition?
Dr. SHAW. No; I don't think so.
Mr. SPECTER. Would it be useful--As to that X-ray, Dr. Shaw, will you
tell us what identifying data, if any, it has in the records of
Dr. SHAW. On this X-ray it has in pencil John G. Connally.
Mr. SPECTER. Is that G or C?
Dr. SHAW. They have a "G" November 22, 1963, and it has a
number 218-922.
Mr. SPECTER. Were those X-rays taken under your supervision?
Dr. SHAW. Yes, by a technician.
Mr. SPECTER. And that is, in fact, the X-ray then which was taken of
Governor Connally at the time these procedures were being performed?
Dr. SHAW. It is.
Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw, would any of the other X-rays be helpful in our
understanding of the Governor's condition?
Dr. SHAW. I believe the only--perhaps showing one additional X-ray would
106
Page
107
show
the fracture previously described which was not easily discernible on the first
film. This is quite often true but not important to the
here is the fracture that can be easily seen.
Mr. SPECTER. You are now referring to a separate and second X-ray.
Dr. SHAW. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Will you start out by telling us on what date this X-ray was
performed.
Dr. SHAW. This X-ray was made on the 29th of November 1963. 7 days
following the incident.
Mr. SPECTER. What does it show of significance?
Dr. SHAW. It shows that there has been considerable clearing in the lower
portion of the lung, and also that there is a fracture of the fifth rib as
previously described approximately 4 centimeters from the transverse process
posteriorly.
Mr. SPECTER. Is there anything else depicted by that X-ray of material
assistance in evaluating the Governor's wound?
Dr. SHAW. No.
Mr. McCLOY. Were there any photographs taken as distinguished from X-rays
of the body?
Dr. SHAW. There were no photographs.
Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw, we shall then, subject to the approval of the
Commission, for the record, have the X-rays reproduced at Parkland Memorial
Hospital, and, if possible, also have a photograph of the X-ray made for the
permanent records of the Commission to show the actual X-ray, which Dr. Shaw has
described during his testimony here this afternoon.
Senator COOPER. It is directed that it be made a part of the record of
these hearings.
Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw, what additional operative procedures did you
perform on Governor Connally's chest?
Dr. SHAW. I will continue with my description of the operative procedure.
The opening that had been made through the rib after the removal of the
fragments was adequate for further exploration of the pleural cavity.
A self-retaining retractor was put into place to maintain exposure.
Inside the pleural cavity there were approximately 200 cc. of clotted blood.
It was found that the middle lobe had been lacerated with the laceration
dividing the lobe into roughly two equal parts.
The laceration ran from the lower tip of the middle lobe up into its root
or hilum.
However, the lobe was not otherwise damaged, so that it could he repaired
using a running suture of triple zero chromic catgut.
The anterior basal segments of the right lower lobe had a large hematoma,
and blood was oozing out of one small laceration that was a little less than a
centimeter in length, where a rib fragment had undoubtedly been driven into the
lobe. To control hemorrhage a single suture of triple zero chromic gut was
placed in this laceration. There
were several small matchstick size fragments of rib within the pleural cavity.
Examination, however, of the pericardium of the diaphragm and the upper
lobe revealed no injury to these parts of the chest.
A drain was placed in the eighth space in the posterior axillary line
similar to the drain which had been placed in the second interspace in the front
of the chest.
The drain in the front of the chest was thought to be a little too long
so about 3 centimeters of it were cut away.
Attention was then turned on the laceration of the latissimus dorsi
muscle where the missile had passed through it.
Several sutures of chromic gut where used to repair this muscle.
The incision was then closed with interrupted No. zero chromic gut in the
muscles of the chest wall--first, I am sorry, in the intercostale muscle, and
muscles of the chest wall, and the same suture material was used to close the
serratus anterior muscle in the subcutaneous tissue, and interrupted vertical
sutures of black silk were used to close the skin.
Attention was then turned to the wound of entrance which, as previously
described, was about a centimeter and a half in its greatest diameter, roughly
107
Page
108
elliptical
in shape. The skin edges of this
wound were incised excised, I beg
your pardon--I have to go back just a little bit.
Prior to examination of this wound, a stab wound was made at the angle of
the scapula to place a drain in the subscapular space.
In the examination of the wound of entrance, the examining finger could
determine that this drain was immediately under the wound of entrance, so that
it was adequately draining the space.
Two sutures were placed in the facia of the muscle, and the skin was
closed with interrupted vertical matching sutures of black silk.
That concluded the operation. Both
tubes were connected to a water seal bottle, and the dressing was applied.
Mr. SPECTER. Who was in charge then of the subsequent care on the
Governor's wrist?
Dr. SHAW. Dr. Charles Gregory who had been previously alerted and then
came in to take care of the wrist.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, with respect to the wound on the wrist, did you have
any opportunity to examine it by way of determining points of entry and exit?
Dr. SHAW. My examination of the wrist was a very cursory one.
I could tell that there was a compound comminuted fracture because there
was motion present, and there was a ragged wound just over the radius above the
wrist joint. But that was the extent of my examination of the wrist.
Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw, did I take your deposition at
Dr. SHAW. Yes; you did.
Mr. SPECTER. Has that deposition been made available to you?
Dr. SHAW. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. To you here this afternoon?
Dr. SHAW. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you subsequent to the giving of
that deposition on March 23, 1964, had an opportunity to examine Governor
Connally's clothing which we have available in the Commission room here today?
Dr. SHAW. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, based on all facts now within your knowledge, is there
any modification which you would care to make in terms of the views which you
expressed about entrance and exit wounds back on March 23, based on the
information which was available to you at that time?
Dr. SHAW. From an examination of the clothing, it is very obvious that
the wound of entrance was through the coat sleeve.
Mr. SPECTER. While you are testifying in that manner, perhaps it would be
helpful if we would make available to you the actual Jacket, if it pleases the
Commission.
We shall reserve Exhibits Nos. 681 for the X-ray of November 22; 682 for
the X-ray of November 29; and we shall now mark a photograph of the coat for our
permanent records as "Commission Exhibit No. 683".
Dr. Shaw, I hand you at this time what purports to be the coat worn by
Governor Connally, which we introduce subject to later proof when Governor
Connally appears later this afternoon; and, for the record, I ask you first of
all if this photograph, designated as Commission Exhibit No. 683, is a picture
of this suit coat?
Dr. SHAW. It is.
Mr. SPECTER. I had interrupted you when you started to refer to the hole
in the sleeve of the coat. Will you
proceed with what you were testifying about there?
Dr. SHAW. The hole in the sleeve of the coat is within hall a centimeter
of the very edge of the sleeve, and lies----
Mr. DULLES. This is the right sleeve, is it not?
Dr. SHAW. I am sorry, yea
Thank you. Of the right
sleeve, and places it, if the coat sleeve was in the same position, assuming it
is in the same position that my coat sleeve is in, places it directly over the
lateral portion of the wrist, really not directly on the volar or the dorsum of
the surface of the wrist,
108
Page
109
but
on the lateral position or the upper position, as the wrist is held in a neutral
position.
Mr. SPECTER. With the additional information provided by the coat, would
that enable you to give an opinion as to which was the wound of entrance and
which the wound of exit on the Governor's wrist?
Dr. SHAW. There is only one tear in the Governor's garment as far as the
appearance of the tear is concerned, I don't think I could render an opinion as
to whether this is a wound of entrance or exit.
Mr. SPECTER. Then, do you have sufficient information at your disposal in
total, based on your observations and what you know now to give any meaningful
opinion as to which was the wound of entrance and which the wound of exit on the
Governor's wrist?
Dr. SHAW. I would prefer to have Dr. Gregory testify about that, because
he has examined it more carefully than I have.
Mr. SPECTER. Fine.
Mr. DULLES. Could you tell at all how the arm was held from that mark or
that hole in the sleeve?
Dr. SHAW. Mr. Dulles, I thought I knew Just how the Governor was wounded
until I saw the pictures today, and it becomes a little bit harder to explain.
I felt that the wound had been caused by the same bullet that came out
through the chest with the Governor's arm held in approximately this position.
Mr. SPECTER. Indicating the right hand held close to the body?
Dr. SHAW. Yes, and this is still a possibility.
But I don't feel that it is the only possibility.
Senator COOPER. Why do you say you don't think it
is the only possibility? What causes you now to say that it is the location----
Dr. SHAW. This is again the testimony that I believe Dr. Gregory will be
giving, too. It is a matter of whether the wrist wound could be caused by the
same bullet, and we felt that it could but we had not seen the bullets until
today, and we still do not know which bullet actually inflicted the wound on
Governor Connally.
Mr. DULLES. Or whether it was one or two wounds?
Dr. SHAW. Yes.
Mr. DULLES. Or two bullets?
Dr. SHAW. Yes; or three.
Mr. DULLES. Why do you say three?
Dr. SHAW. He has three separate wounds.
He has a wound in the chest, a wound of the wrist, a wound of the thigh.
Mr. DULLES. Oh, yes; we haven't. come to the wound of the thigh yet, have
we?
Mr. McCLOY. You have no firm opinion that all these three wounds were
caused by one bullet?
Dr. SHAW. I have no firm opinion.
Mr. McCLOY. That is right.
Dr. SHAW. Asking me this now if it was true. If you had asked me a month
ago I would have.
Mr. DULLES. Could they have been caused by one bullet, in your opinion?
Dr. SHAW. They could.
Mr. McCLOY. I gather that what the witness is saying is that it is
possible that. they might have been caused by one bullet.
But that he has no firm opinion now that they were.
Mr. DULLES. As I understand it too. Is
our understanding correct?
Dr. SHAW. That is correct.
Senator COOPER. When you say all three are you referring to the wounds
you have just described to the chest, the wound in the wrist, and also the wound
in the thigh?
Dr. SHAW. Yes.
Senator COOPER. It was possible?
Dr. SHAW. Our original assumption, Senator Cooper, was that the Governor
was approximately in this attitude at the time he was----
Senator COOPER. What attitude is that now?
Dr. SHAW. This is an attitude sitting in a jump seat as we know he was,
109
Page
110
upright,
with his right forearm held across the lower portion of the chest. In this
position, the trajectory of the bullet could have caused the wound of entrance,
the wound of exit, struck his wrist and proceeded on into the left thigh.
But although this is a possibility, I can't give a firm opinion that this
is the actual way in which it occurred.
Mr. SPECTER. If it pleases the Commission, we propose to go through that
in this testimony; and we have already started to mark other exhibits in
sequence on the clothing. So that it
will be more systematic, we plan to proceed with the identification of clothing
and then go on to the composite diagram which explains the first hypothesis of
Dr. Shaw and the other doctors of Park- land.
And then proceed from that, as I intend to do, with an examination of the
bullet, which will explore the thinking of the doctor on that subject.
Dr. Shaw, for our record, I will hand you Commission Exhibit No. 684 and
ask you if that is a picture of the reverse side of the coat, which we will
later prove to have been worn by Governor Connally, the coat which is before
you?
Dr. SHAW. It is.
Mr. SPECTER. What, if anything, appears on the back of that coat and also
on the picture in line with the wound which you have described on the Governor's
posterior chest?
Dr. SHAW. The picture the
coat and the picture of the coat, show a rent in the back of the coat
approximately 2- centimeters medial to the point where the sleeve has been
joined to the main portion of the garment.
The lighter-colored material of the lining of the coat can be seen
through this rent in the coat.
Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw, I show you a shirt, subject to later proof that it
was the shirt worn by Governor Connally, together with a photograph marked
"Commission Exhibit No. 685," and ask you if that is a picture of that
shirt, the back side of the shirt?
Dr. SHAW. Yes; it is a picture of the back side of the shirt.
However, in this particular picture I am not able to make out the hole in
the shirt very well.
Now I see it, I believe; yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe the hole as you see it to exist in the
shirt? Aside from what you see on the picture, what hole do you observe on the
back of the shirt itself?
Dr. SHAW. On the back of the shirt itself there is a hole, a punched out
area of the shirt which is a little more than a centimeter in its greater
diameter. The whole shirt is soiled by brown stains which could have been due to
blood.
Mr. SPECTER. How does the hole in the back of the shirt correspond with
the wound on the Governor's back?
Dr. SHAW. It does correspond exactly.
Mr. SPECTER. Now turning the same shirt over to the front side, I ask you
if the photograph, marked "Commission Exhibit No. 386," is a picture
of the front side of this shirt?
Dr. SHAW. It is.
Mr. SPECTER. What does the picture of the shirt show with respect to a
hole, if any, on the right side of the front of the shirt?
Dr. SHAW. The picture and the shirt show on the right side a much larger
rent in the garment with the rent being approximately 4 centimeters in its
largest diameter.
Mr. SPECTER. What wound, if any, did the Governor sustain on his thigh,
Dr. Shaw?
Mr. DULLES. Just one moment, are you leaving this?
Mr. SPECTER. Yes.
Mr. DULLES. I wonder whether or not it would not be desirable for the
doctor to put on this photograph where these holes are, because they are not at
all clear for the future if we want to study those photographs.
Dr. SHAW. This one is not so hard.
Mr. DULLES. That one appears but the other one doesn't appear and I think
it would be very helpful.
Dr. SHAW. How would you like to have me outline this?
110
Page
111
Mr. SPECTER. Draw a red circle of what you conceive to be the hole there,
Doctor.
Mr. DULLES. The actual hole is not nearly as big as your circle, it is
the darkened area inside that circle, is it not?
Dr. SHAW. Yes; the darkened area is enclosed by the circle.
Mr. SPECTER. Are you able to note on the photograph of the back of the
shirt, 685?
Will you draw a red circle around the area of the hole on the photograph
then, Dr. Shaw?
Mr. DULLES. Would you just initial those two circles, if you can.
Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw, what wounds, if any, did the Governor sustain on
his left thigh?
Dr. SHAW. He sustained a small puncture-type wound on the medial aspect
of the left thigh.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you have an opportunity to examine that closely?
Dr. SHAW. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you have an opportunity to examine it sufficiently to
ascertain its location on the left thigh?
Dr. SHAW. No; I didn't examine it that closely, except for its general
location.
Mr. SPECTER. Where was it with respect to a general location then on the
Governor's thigh?
Dr. SHAW. It is on the medial anterior aspect of the thigh.
Mr. DULLES. Nontechnically, what does it mean?
Dr. SHAW. Well, above, slightly above, between, in other words, the
medial aspect would be the aspect toward the middle of the body, but as far as
being how many centimeters or inches it is from the knee and the groin, I am not
absolutely sure.
Mr. SPECTER. I now show you a pair of trousers which we shall later
identify as being those worn by the Governor.
I will, first of all, ask you if a photograph bearing Commission Exhibit
No. 687 is a picture of those trousers?
Dr. SHAW. It is.
Mr. SPECTER. And what hole, if any did you observe on the trousers and on
the picture of the trousers?
Dr. SHAW. There is a hole in the garment that has been made by some
instrument which has carried away a part of the Governor's garment.
In other words, it is not a tear but is a punched out hole, and this is
approximately 4 centimeters on the inner aspect from the crease of the trousers.
Mr. DULLES. Can you tell where the knee is there and how far above the
knee approximately?
Dr. SHAW. I can't tell exactly.
Mr. DULLES. I guess you can't tell.
Dr. SHAW. From the crotch I would say it would be slightly, it is a
little hard to tell, slightly more toward the knee than the groin.
Mr. SPECTER. Does that hole in the left leg of the trousers match up to
the wound on the left thigh of the Governor?
Dr. SHAW. To the best of my recollection it does.
Mr. DULLES. Are there any other perforations in these trousers at all,
any other holes?
Dr. SHAW. No.
Mr. DULLES. So that means that whatever made the hole on the front side
did not come through and make a hole anywhere else in the trousers?
Dr. SHAW. That is correct. It
had to be a penetrating wound and not a perforating wound, it didn't go on
through.
Mr. SPECTER. Will you turn those trousers over, Dr. Shaw?
Dr. SHAW. I believe we had already looked at it.
Mr. SPECTER. On the reverse side, and state whether or not this picture
bearing Commission Exhibit No. 688 accurately depicts the reverse side of the
trousers?
Dr. SHAW. Yes; it does.
Mr. SPECTER. Is there any hole shown either on the picture or on the
trousers themselves?
Dr. SHAW. No.
111
Page
112
Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw, I now show you a body diagram which is marked
"Commission Exhibit No. 689."
Senator COOPER. May I ask a question before you ask that question?
When you first saw Governor Connally in the emergency room was he dressed
or undressed?
Dr. SHAW. His trousers were still on.
He had his shorts on, I should say, Senator Cooper, but his coat, shirt,
and trousers had been removed.
Mr. SPECTER. Were his clothes anywhere in the vicinity where you could
have seen them?
Dr. SHAW. No; I never saw them. This
is the first time that I saw them.
Mr. SPECTER. That is earlier today when you examined them in this room?
Dr. SHAW. That is Correct.
Mr. SPECTER. Looking at Commission Exhibit No. 689, is that a drawing
which was prepared, after consultation with you, representing the earlier theory
of all of the Governor's wounds having been inflicted by a single missile?
Dr. SHAW. That is Correct.
Mr. SPECTER. With reference to that diagram, would you explain the
position that you had earlier thought the Governor to have been in when he was
wounded here?
Dr. SHAW. We felt that the Governor was in an upright sitting position,
and at the time of wounding was turning slightly to the right.
This would bring the three wounds, as we know them, the wound in the
chest, the wound in the wrist, and the wound in the thigh into a line assuming
that the right forearm was held against the lower right chest in front.
The line of inclination of this particular diagram is a little more
sharply downward than is probably correct in view of the inclination of the ribs
of the chest.
Mr. SPECTER. Will you redraw that line, Dr. Shaw, to conform with what
you believe to be----
Dr. SHAW. The fact that the muscle bundles on either side of the fifth
rib were not damaged meant that the missile to strip away 10 centimeters of the
rib had to follow this rib pretty much along its line of inclination.
Mr. DULLES. I wonder if you could use that red pencil to make it a little
clearer for us?
Dr. SHAW. I think these would probably work well on this paper.
Perhaps this isn't a tremendous paint but it slopes just a little too
much.
Mr. SPECTER. You have initialed that to show your incline?
Dr. SHAW. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. With respect to the wound you described on the thigh, Dr.
Shaw, was there any point of exit as to that wound?
Dr. SHAW. No.
Mr. SPECTER. I now show you----
Mr. DULLES. Could I ask one more question there, how deep was the wound
of entry, could you tell at all?
Dr. SHAW. Mr. Dulles, I didn't examine the wound of the thigh so I can't
testify as to that. Dr. Gregory, I
think, was there at the time that the debris was carried out and he may have
more knowledge than I have.
Mr. DULLES. We will hear Dr. Gregory later?
Mr. SPECTER. Yes; he is scheduled to testify as soon as Dr. Shaw
concludes.
Dr. Shaw, I now show you Commission Exhibit 399 which has heretofore been
identified as being a virtually whole bullet weighing 158 grains.
May I say for the record, that in the depositions which have been taken
in Parkland Hospital, that we have ascertained, and those depositions are part
of the overall record, that is the bullet which came from the stretcher of
Governor Connally.
First, Dr. Shaw, have you had a chance to examine that bullet earlier
today?
Dr. SHAW. Yes; I examined it this morning.
Mr. SPECTER. Is it possible that the bullet which went through the
Governor's chest could have emerged being as fully intact as that bullet is?
Dr. SHAW. Yes; I believe it is possible because of the fact that the
bullet
112
Page
113
struck
the fifth rib at a very acute angle and struck a portion of the rib which would
not offer a great amount of resistance.
Mr. SPECTER. Does that bullet appear to you to have any of its metal
flaked off?
Dr. SHAW. I have been told
that the one point on the nose of this bullet that is deformed was cut off for
purposes of examination. With that
information, I would have to say that this bullet has lost literally none of its
substance.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, as to the wound on the thigh, could that bullet have
gone into the Governor's thigh without causing any more damage than appears on
the face of that bullet?
Dr. SHAW. If it was a spent bullet; yes. As far as the bullet is
concerned it could have caused the Governor's thigh wound as a spent missile.
Mr. SPECTER. Why do you say it is a spent missile, would you elaborate on
what your thinking is on that issue?
Dr. SHAW. Only from what I have been told by Dr. Shires and Dr. Gregory,
that the depth of the wound was only into the subcutaneous tissue, not actually
into the muscle of the leg, so it meant that missile had penetrated for a very
short period. Am I quoting you correctly, Dr. Gregory?
Mr. SPECTER. May the record show Dr. Gregory is present during this
testimony and----
Dr. GREGORY. I will say yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And indicates in the affirmative.
Do you have sufficient knowledge of the wound of the wrist to render an
opinion as to whether that bullet could have gone through Governor Connally's
wrist and emerged being as much intact as it is?
Dr. SHAW. I do not.
Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw, assume if you will certain facts to be true in
hpyothetical form, that is, that the President was struck in the upper portion
of the back or lower portion of the neck with a 6.5-mm. missile passing between
the strap muscles of the President's neck, proceeding through a facia channel
striking no bones, not violating the pleural cavity, and emerging through the
anterior third of the neck, with the missile having been fired from a weapon
having a muzzle velocity of approximately 2,000 feet per second, with the muzzle
being approximately 160 to 250 feet from the President's body; that the missile
was a copper jacketed bullet. Would it be possible for that bullet to have then
proceeded approximately 4 or 5 feet and then would it be possible for it to have
struck Governor Connally in the back and have inflicted the wound which you have
described on the posterior aspect of his chest, and also on the anterior aspect
of his chest?
Dr. SHAW. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And what would your reason be for giving an affirmative
answer to that question, Dr. Shaw?
Dr. SHAW. Because I would feel that a missile with this velocity and
weight striking no more than the soft tissues of the neck would have adequate
velocity and mass to inflict the wound that we found on the Governor's chest.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, without respect to whether or not the bullet identified
as Commission Exhibit 399 is or is not the one which inflicted the wound on the
Governor, is it possible that a missile similar to the one which I have just
described in the hypothetical question could have inflicted all of the
Governor's wounds in accordance with the theory which you have outlined on
Commission Exhibit No. 689?
Dr. SHAW. Assuming that it also had passed through the President's neck
you mean?
Mr. SPECTER. No; I had not added that factor in.
I will in the next question.
Dr. SHAW. All right. As far
as the wounds of the chest are concerned, I feel that this bullet could have
inflicted those wounds. But the
examination of the wrist both by X-ray and at the time of surgery showed some
fragments of metal that make it difficult to believe that the same missile could
have caused these two wounds. There
seems to be more than three grains of metal missing as far as the I mean in the
wrist.
Mr. SPECTER. Your answer there, though, depends upon the assumption that
the bullet which we have identified as Exhibit 399 is the bullet which did the
113
Page
114
damage
to the Governor. Aside from whether
or not that is the bullet which inflicted the Governor's wounds.
Dr. SHAW. I see.
Mr. SPECTER. Could a bullet traveling in the path which I have described
in the prior hypothetical question, have inflicted nil of the wounds on the
Governor?
Dr. SHAW. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And so far as the velocity and the dimension of the bullet
are concerned, is it possible that the same bullet could have gone through the
President in the way that I have described and proceed through the Governor
causing all of his wounds without regard to whether or not it was bullet 399?
Dr. SHAW. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. When you started to comment about it not being possible, was
that in reference to the existing mass and shape of bullet 399?
Dr. SHAW. I thought you were referring directly to the bullet shown as
Exhibit 399.
Mr. SPECTER. What is your opinion as to whether bullet 399 could have
inflicted all of the wounds on the Governor, then, without respect at this point
to the wound of the President's neck?
Dr. SHAW. I feel that there would be some difficulty in explaining all of
the wounds as being inflicted by bullet Exhibit 399 without causing more in the
way of loss of substance to the bullet or deformation of the bullet.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw, have you had an opportunity today here in the
Cornmission building to view the movies which we referred to as the Zapruder
movies and the slides taken from these movies?
Dr. SHAW. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And what, if any, light did those movies shed on your
evaluation and opinions on this matter with respect to the wounds of the
Governor?
Dr. SHAW. Well, my main interest was to try to place the time that the
Governor was struck by the bullet which inflicted the wound on his chest in
reference to the sequence of the three shots, as has been described to us.
(At this point the Chief Justice entered the hearing room.)
This meant trying to carefully examine the position of the Governor's
body in the car so that it would fall in line with what we knew the trajectory
must be for this bullet coming from the point where it has been indicated it did
come from. And in trying to place
this actual frame that these frames are numbered when the Governor was hit, my
opinion was that it was frame number, let's see, I think it was No. 36.
Mr. SPECTER 236?
Dr. SHAW. 236, give or take 1 or 2 frames.
It was right in 35, 36, 37, perhaps.
Mr. SPECTER. I have heretofore asked you questions about what possibly
could have happened in terms of the various combinations of possibilities on
missiles striking the Governor in relationship to striking the President as
well. Do you have any opinion as to
what, in fact, did happen?
Dr. SHAW. Yes. From the
pictures, from the conversation with Governor Connally and Mrs. Connally, it
seems that the first bullet hit the President in the shoulder and perforated the
neck, but this was not the bullet that Governor Connally feels hit him; and in
the sequence of films I think it is hard to say that the first bullet hit both
of these men almost simultaneously.
Mr. SPECTER. Is that view based on the information which Governor
Connally provided to you?
Dr. SHAW. Largely.
Mr. SPECTER. As opposed to any objectively determinable facts from the
bullets, the situs of the wounds or your viewing of the pictures?
Dr. SHAW. Yes. I was
influenced a great deal by what Governor Connally knew about his movements in
the car at this particular time.
Mr. DULLES. You have indicated a certain angle of declination on this
chart here which the Chief Justice has.
Dr. SHAW. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you know enough about the angle of declination of the
bullet that hit the President to Judge at all whether these two angles of
declination are consistent?
114
Page
115
Dr. SHAW. We know that the angle of declination was a downward one from
hack to front so that I think this is consistent with the angle of declination
of the wound that the Governor sustained.
Senator COOPER. Are you speaking of the angle of declination in the
President's body?
Dr. SHAW. Of the first wound?
Mr. SPECTER. Yes.
Dr. SHAW. First wound.
Mr. SPECTER. What you have actually seen from pictures to show the angle
of declination?
Dr. SHAW. That is right.
Mr. SPECTER. In the wounds in the President's body?
Dr. SHAW. Yes; that is right. I did not examine the President.
Mr. DULLES. And that angle taking into account say the 4 feet difference
between where the President was sitting and where the Governor was sitting,
would be consistent with the point of entry of the Governor's body as you have
shown it?
Dr. SHAW. The jump seat in the car, as we could see, placed the Governor
sitting at a lower level than the President, and I think conceivably these two
wounds could have been caused by the same bullet.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything else to add, Dr. Shaw, which you think
would be helpful to the Commission in any way?
Dr. SHAW. I don't believe so Mr. Specter.
Mr. SPECTER. May it please the Commission then I would like to move into
evidence Commission Exhibits Nos. 679 and 680, and then reserve Nos. 681 and 682
until we get the photographs of the X-rays and I now move for admission into
evidence Commission Exhibits Nos. 683 through 689.
Senator COOPER. They have all been identified, have they?
Mr. SPECTER. Yes, sir; during the course of Dr. Shaw's testimony.
Senator COOPER. It is ordered then that these exhibits be received in the
record.
(The documents referred to, previously identified as Commission Exhibits
Nos. 679, 680, and 683-689 for identification were received in evidence.)
Mr. McCLOY. Just one or two questions.
It is perfectly clear, Doctor, that the wound, the lethal wound on the
President did not--the bullet that caused the lethal wound on the President, did
not cause any wounds on Governor Connally, in your opinion?
Dr. SHAW. Mr. McCloy, I couldn't say that from my knowledge.
Mr. McCLOY. We are talking about the, following up what Mr. Dulles said
about the angle of declination, the wound that came through the President's
collar, you said was consistent between the same bullet. I just wondered whether
under all the circumstances that you know about the President's head wound on
the top that would also be consistent with a wound in Governor Connally's body?
Dr. SHAW. On the chest, yes; I am not so sure about the wrist.
I can't quite place where his wrist was at the time his chest was struck.
Mr. McCLOY. Now perhaps this is Dr. Gregory's testimony, that is the full
description of the wrist wound, that would be his rather than your testimony?
Dr. SHAW. I think he could throw just as much light on it as I could.
And more in certain aspects.
Mr. McCLOY. It did hit bone?
Dr. SHAW. Obviously.
Mr. McCLOY. And there must have been a considerable diminution in the
velocity of the bullet after penetrating through the wrist?
Dr. SHAW. Yes.
Mr. DULLES. The wound inflicted on it, the chest wound on Governor
Connally, if you move that an inch or two, 1 inch or the other, could that have
been lethal, go through an area that could easily have been lethal?
Dr. SHAW. Yes; of course, if it had been moved more medially it could
have struck the heart and the great vessels.
Mr. McCLOY. Let me ask you this, Doctor, in your experience with gunshot
wounds, is it possible for a man to be hit sometime before he realizes it?
115
Page
116
Dr. SHAW. Yes. There can be a delay in the sensory reaction.
Mr. McCLOY. Yes; so that a man can think as of a given instant he was not
hit, and when actually he could have been hit.
Dr. SHAW. There can be an extending. sensation and then just a gradual
building up of a feeling of severe injury.
Mr. McCLOY. But there could be a delay in any appreciable reaction
between the time of the impact of the bullet and the occurrence?
Dr. SHAW. Yes; but in the case of a wound which strikes a bony substance
such as a rib, usually the reaction is quite prompt.
Mr. McCLOY. Yes.
Dr. SHAW. Yes.
Mr. McCLOY. Now, you have indicated, I think, that this bullet traveled
along, hit and traveled along the path of the rib, is that right?
Dr. SHAW. Yes.
Mr. McCLOY. Is it possible that it could have not, the actual bullet
could not have hit the rib at all but it might have been the expanding flesh
that would cause the wound or the proper contusion, I guess you would call it on
the rib itself?
Dr. SHAW. I think we would have to postulate that the bullet hit the rib
itself by the neat way in which it stripped the rib out without doing much
damage to the muscles that lay on either side of it.
Mr. McCLOY. Was---up until you gave him the anesthetic--the Governor was
fully conscious, was he?
Dr. SHAW. I would not say fully, but he was responsive.
He would answer questions.
Mr. McCLOY. I think that is all I have.
The CHAIRMAN. I have no questions of the doctor.
Mr. DULLES. There were no questions put to him that were significant as
far as our testimony is concerned?
Dr. SHAW. No; we really don't
have to question him much. Our
problem was pretty clearcut, and he told us it hurt and that was about his only
response as far as----
Senator COOPER. Could I ask you a question, doctor?
I think you said from the time you came into the emergency room and the
time you went to the operating room was about 5 minutes?
Dr. SHAW. Yes; it was just the time that it took to ask a few simple
questions, what has been done so far, and has the operating room been alerted,
and then I went out and talked to Mrs. Connally, just very briefly, I told her
what the problem was in respect to the Governor and what we were going to have
to do about it and she said to go ahead with anything that was necessary.
So this couldn't have taken more than 5 minutes or so.
Mr. DULLES. Did he say anything or did anyone say anything there about
the circumstances of the shooting?
Dr. SHAW. Not at that time.
Mr. DULLES. Either of Governor Connally or the President?
Dr. SHAW. Not at that time. All of our conversation was later.
Mr. DULLES. Was the President in the same room?
Dr. SHAW. No.
Mr. DULLES. Did you see him?
Dr. SHAW. I only saw his shoes and his feet. He was in the room
immediately opposite. As I came into
the hallway, I could recognize that the President was on it, in the room to my
right. I knew that my problem was concerned with Governor Connally, and I turned
and went into the room where I saw that he was.
Mr. DULLES. Did you hear at that time or have any knowledge, of a bullet
which had been found on the stretcher?
Dr. SHAW. No; this was later knowledge.
Mr. DULLES. When did you first hear that?
(At this point Senator Russell entered the hearing room.)
Dr. SHAW. This information was first given to me by a man from the Secret
Service who interviewed me in my office several weeks later. It is the first
time I knew about any bullet being recovered.
116
Page
117
Senator COOPER. I think, of course, it is evident from your testimony you
have had wide experience in chest wounds and bullet wounds in the chest.
What experience have you had in, say, the field of ballistics?
Would this experience you
have been dealing in chest wounds caused by bullets--have provided you knowledge
also about the characteristics of missiles, particularly bullets of this type?
Dr. SHAW. No; Senator. I believe that my information about ballistics is
just that of an average layman, no more. Perhaps
a little more since I have seen deformed bullets from wounds, but I haven't gone
into that aspect of wounds.
Senator COOPER. In the answers to the hypothetical questions that were
addressed to you, based upon the only actual knowledge which you could base that
answer, was the fact that you had performed the operation on the wound caused in
the chest, on the wound in the chest?
Dr. SHAW. That is true. I have seen many bullets that have passed through
bodies or have penetrated bodies and have struck bone and I know manners from
which they are deformed but I know very little about the caliber of bullets, the
velocity of bullets, many things that other people have much more knowledge of
than I have.
Senator COOPER. That is all.
The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much, Dr. Shaw.
Dr.
Charles Francis Gregory
Page
117
TESTIMONY
OF DR. CHARLES FRANCIS GREGORYTESTIMONY OF DR. ROBERT ROEDER SHAW
Senator COOPER. The Commission will come to order.
Dr. Shaw, you understand that the purpose of this inquiry is taken under
the order of the President appointing the Commission on the assassination of
President Kennedy to investigate all the facts relating to his assassination.
Dr. SHAW. I do.
Senator COOPER. And report to the public.
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give before this
Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so
help you God?
Dr. SHAW. I do.
Senator COOPER. Do you desire an attorney to be with you?
Dr. SHAW. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Will you state your full name for the record, please?
Dr. SHAW. Robert Roeder Shaw.
Mr. SPECTER. What is your profession, please?
Dr. SHAW. Physician and surgeon.
Mr. SPECTER. Will you outline briefly your educational background?
Dr. SHAW. I received my B.A. degree from the
Following that I served 2 years at the
On August 1, 1938, I entered private practice limiting my practice to
thoracic surgery in
Mr. DULLES. What kind of surgery?
Dr. SHAW. Thoracic surgery or surgery of the chest,
101
Page
102
I have practiced there continuously except for a period from June 1942,
until December 1945, when I was a member of the Medical Corps of the Army of the
I was away again from December 1961, until June of 1963, when I was head
of the MEDICO team and performed surgery at
Mr. DULLES. Will you tell us a little bit about MEDICO.
Is that the ship?
Dr. SHAW. No; that is HOPE. MEDICO was formed by the late Dr. Tom Dooley.
Mr. DULLES. Yes; I know him very well.
He was the man in
Dr. SHAW. Yes, sir; this was one of their projects.
Mr. DULLES. I see.
Dr. SHAW. I returned to----
Mr. DULLES. An interesting project.
Dr. SHAW. I returned to
In this position I also am chief of thoracic surgery at
Mr. SPECTER. Are you licensed to practice medicine in the State of
Dr. SHAW. I am.
Mr. SPECTER. Are you certified?
Dr. SHAW. By the board of thoracic surgery you mean?
Mr. SPECTER. Yes; by the board of thoracic surgery.
Dr. SHAW. Yes; as of 1948.
Mr. SPECTER. What experience, if any, have you had, Dr. Shaw, with bullet
wounds?
Dr. SHAW. I have had civilian experience, both in the work at
The chief experience I had, however, was during the Second World War when
I was serving as chief of the thoracic surgery center in
Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate as to the total number of bullet
wounds you have had experience with?
Dr. SHAW. It would be approximately 1,000, considering the large number
of admissions we had in
Mr. SPECTER What were your duties in a general way on November 22, 1963.
Dr. SHAW. On that particular date I had been at a conference at
Woodlawn and the Children's Hospital are approximately a mile away from
Mr. SPECTER. Were you called upon to render any aid to President Kennedy
on November 22?
Dr. SHAW. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Were you called upon to render medical aid to Gov. John B.
Connally on that day?
Dr. SHAW. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe briefly the circumstances surrounding your
being called into the case.
Dr. SHAW. As I was driving toward the medical school I came to an
intersection of
There is also a railroad crossing at this particular point.
I saw an open limousine pass this point at high speed with a police
escort. We were held up in traffic
because of this escort Finally, when
we were allowed to proceed,
102
Page
103
I
went on to the medical school expecting to eat lunch. I had the radio on because
it was the day that I knew the President was in Dallas and would be eating lunch
at the Trade Mart which was not far away, and over the radio I heard the report
that the President had been shot at while riding in the motorcade.
I went on to the medical school and as I entered the medical school a
student came in and joined three other students, and said the President has just
been brought into the emergency room at Parkland, dead on arrival.
The students said, "You are kidding, aren't you?" and he said,
"No, I am not. I saw him, and Governor Connally has-been shot through the
chest."
Hearing that I turned and walked over to the emergency room, which is
approximately 150 yards from. the medical school, and entered the emergency
room.
Mr. SPECTER. At approximately what time did you arrive at the emergency
room where Governor Connally was situated?
Dr. SHAW. As near as I could tell it was about 12:45.
Mr. SPECTER. Who was with Governor Connally, if anyone, at that time, Dr.
Shaw?
Dr. SHAW. I immediately recognized two of the men who worked with me in
thoracic surgery, Dr. James Duke and Dr. James Boland, Dr. Giesecke, who is an
anesthesiologist, was also there along with a Dr. David Mebane who is an
instructor in general surgery.
Mr. SPECTER. What was Governor Connally's condition at that time, based
on your observations?
Dr. SHAW. The Governor was complaining bitterly of difficulty in
breathing, and of pain in his right chest. Prior
to my arriving there, the men had very properly placed a tight occlusive
dressing over what on later examination proved to be a large sucking wound in
the front of his right chest, and they had inserted a rubber tube between the
second and third ribs in the front of the right chest, carrying this tube to
what we call a water seal bottle.
Mr. SPECTER What was the purpose?
Dr. SHAW. Yes; this is done to reexpand the right lung which had
collapsed due to the opening through the chest wall.
Mr. SPECTER. What wounds, if any, did you observe on the Governor at that
time?
Dr. SHAW. I observed no wounds on the Governor at this time.
It wasn't until he was taken to the operating room that I properly
examined him from the standpoint of the wound.
Mr. SPECTER. How long after your initial viewing of him was he taken to
the operating room?
Dr. SHAW. Within about 5 minutes. I
stepped outside to talk to Mrs. Con-natty because I had been given information
by Dr. Duke that blood had been drawn from the Governor, sent to the laboratory
for cross-matching for blood that we knew would be necessary, that the operating
room had already been alerted, and that they were ready and they were merely
awaiting my arrival.
Mr. SPECTER. How was Governor Connally transported from the emergency
room to the operating room?
Dr. SHAW. On a stretcher.
Mr. SPECTER. And was he transported up an elevator as well?
Dr. SHAW. Yes. It is two
floors above the emergency rooms.
Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe what happened next in connection with
Governor Connally's----
Mr. DULLES. Could I ask a question, putting in this tube is prior to
making an incision?
Dr. SHAW. Yes; a stab wound.
Mr. DULLES. Just a stab wound?
Dr. SHAW. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. What treatment next followed for Governor Connally, Doctor?
Dr. SHAW. He was taken to the operating room and there Dr. Giesecke
started the anesthesia. This entails giving an intravenous injection of sodium
pentothal and then after the Governor was asleep a gas was used, that will be on
the anesthetic record there.
103
Page
104
Mr. SPECTER. Do you know at approximately what time this procedure was
started?
Dr. SHAW. I will have to refresh my memory again from the record.
We had at the time I testified before, we had the
Mr. SPECTER. Permit me to make available to you a copy of the Parkland
Memorial Hospital operative record and let me ask you, first of all, if you can
identify these two pages on an exhibit heretofore marked as Commission Exhibit
392 as to whether or not this constitutes your report?
Dr. SHAW. Yes; this is a transcription of my dictated report of the
operation.
Mr. SPECTER. Are the facts set forth therein true and correct?
Dr. SHAW. Yes. On this it
states that the operation itself was begun at 1300 hours or 1 o'clock, 1 p.m.,
and that the actual surgery started at 1335 or 1:35 p.m.
The operation was concluded by me at 3--1520 which would be 3:20 p.m.
Mr. SPECTER. You have described, in a general way, the chest wound.
What other wounds, if any, was Governor Connally suffering from at the
time you saw him?
Dr. SHAW. I will describe then the wound of the wrist which was obvious.
He had a wound of the lower right forearm that I did not accurately examine
because I had already talked to Dr. Gregory while I was scrubbing for the
operation, told him that this wound would need his attention as soon as we were
able to get the chest in a satisfactory condition.
There was also, I was told, I didn't see the wound, on the thigh, I was
told that there was a small wound on the thigh which I saw later.
Mr. SPECTER. When did you first have an opportunity then to examine
Governor Connally's wound on the posterior aspect of his chest?
Dr. SHAW. After the Governor had been anesthetized.
As soon as he was asleep so we could manipulate him--before that time it
was necessary for an endotracheal tube to be in place so his respirations could
be controlled before we felt we could roll him over and accurately examine the
wound entrance. We knew this was the wound exit.
Mr. SPECTER. This [indicating an area below the right nipple on the
body]?
Dr. SHAW. Yes.
Mr. DULLES. How did you know it was a wound exit.
Dr. SHAW. By the fact of its size, the ragged edges of the wound.
This wound was covered by a dressing which could not be removed until the
Governor was anesthetized.
Mr. SPECTER. Indicating this wound, the wound on the Governor's chest?
Dr. SHAW. Yes; the front part.
Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe in as much detail as you can the wound on
the posterior side of the Governor's chest?
Dr. SHAW. This was a small wound approximately a centimeter and a half in
its greatest diameter. It was
roughly elliptical. It was just
medial to the axilliary fold or the crease of the armpit, but we could tell that
this wound, the depth of the wound, had not penetrated the shoulder blade.
Mr. SPECTER. What were the characteristics, if any, which indicated to
you that it was a wound of entrance then?
Dr. SHAW. Its small size, and the rather clean cut edges of the wound as
compared to the usual more ragged wound of exit.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, I hand you a diagram which is a body diagram on
Commission Exhibit No. 679, and ask you if, on the back portion of the figure,
that accurately depicts the point of entry into Governor Connally's back?
Dr. SHAW. Yes. The depiction
of the point of entry, I feel is quite accurate.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, with respect to the front side of the body, is the
point of exit accurately shown on the diagram?
Dr. SHAW. The point is----
Mr. SPECTER. We have heretofore, may the record show the deposition
covered much the same ground with Dr. Shaw, but the diagrams used now are new
diagrams which will have to be remarked in accordance with your recollection.
Dr. SHAW. Yes. Because I
would have to place they are showing here the angle.
104
Page
105
Mr. DULLES. Is this all on the record?
Mr. SPECTER. It should be.
Dr. SHAW. We are showing on this angle, the cartilage angle which it
makes at the end of the sternum.
Mr. SPECTER. That is an inverted V which appears in front of the body?
Dr. SHAW. Now the wound was above that.
They have shown it below that point so the wound would have to be placed
here as far as the point is concerned.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you draw on that diagram a more accurate depiction of
where the wound of exit occurred?
Dr. SHAW. Do you want me to initial this?
Mr. SPECTER. Yes; if you please, Dr. Shaw.
I hand you another body diagram marked Commission Exhibit 680 and I will
ask you if that accurately depicts the angle of decline as the bullet passed
through Governor Connally?
Dr. SHAW. I think the declination of this line is a little too sharply
downward. I would place it about 5°
off that line.
Mr. SPECTER. Will you redraw the line then, Dr. Shaw, and initial it,
indicating the more accurate angle?
Dr. SHAW. The reason I state this is that as they have shown this, it
would place the wound of exit a little too far below the nipple.
Also it would, since the bullet followed the line of declination of the
fifth rib, it would make the ribs placed in a too slanting position.
Mr. SPECTER. What operative procedures did you employ in caring for the
wound of the chest, Dr. Shaw.
Dr. SHAW. The first measure was to excise the edges of the wound of exit
in an elliptical fashion, and then this incision was carried in a curved
incision along the lateral portion of the right chest up toward the right axilla
in order to place the skin incision lower than the actual path of the bullet
through the chest wall.
After this incision had been carried down to the level of the muscles
attached to the rib cage, all of the damaged muscle which was chiefly the
serratus anterior muscle which digitates along the fifth rib at this position,
was cleaned away, cut away with sharp dissection.
As soon as--of course, this incision had been made, the opening through
the parietal pleura, which is the lining of the inside of the chest was very
obvious. It was necessary to trim away several small fragments of the rib which
were still hanging to tags of periosteum, the lining of the rib, and the ragged
ends of the rib were smoothed off with a rongeur.
Mr. SPECTER. What damage had been inflicted upon a rib, if any, Dr. Shaw?
Dr. SHAW. About 10 centimeters of the fifth rib starting at the, about
the mid-axillary line and going to the anterior axillary line, as we describe
it, or that would be the midline at the armpit going to the anterior lateral
portion of the chest had been stripped away by the missile.
Mr. SPECTER. What is the texture of the rib at the point where the
missile struck?
Dr. SHAW. The texture of the rib here is not of great density.
The cortex of the rib in the lateral portions of our ribs, is thin with
the so-called cancellus portion of the rib being very spongy, offering very
little resistance to pressure or to fracturing.
Mr. SPECTER. What effect, if any, would the striking of that rib have had
to the trajectory of the bullet?
Dr. SHAW. It could have had a slight, caused a slight deflection of the
rib, but probably not a great deflection of the rib, because of the angle at
which it struck and also because of the texture of the rib at this time.
Mr. SPECTER. You say deflection of the rib or deflection of the bullet?
Dr. SHAW. Deflection of the bullet, I am sorry.
Mr. SPECTER. Was any metallic substance from the bullet left in the
thoracic cage as a result of the passage of the bullet through the Governor's
body?
Dr. SHAW. No. We saw no
evidence of any metallic material in the X-ray that we had of the chest, and we
found none during the operation.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you brought the X-rays with you, Dr. Shaw, from
105
731-220 O---64---vol.IV----8
Page
106
Dr. SHAW. Yes; we have them here.
Mr. SPECTER. May the record show we have available a viewer for the
X-rays.
Dr. Shaw, would you, by use of the viewer, exhibit the X-rays of the
Governor's chest to show more graphically that which you have heretofore
described?
Dr. SHAW. This is the first X-ray that was taken, which was taken in the
operating room with the Governor on the operating table, and at this time
anesthetized. The safety pin that
you see here is used, was used, to secure the tube which had been put between
the second and third rib in expanding the Governor's lung.
We can dimly see also the latex rubber tube up in the chest coming to the
apex of the chest.
The variations that we see from normal here are the fact that first,
there is a great amount of swelling in the chest wall which we know was due to
bleeding and bruising of the tissues of the chest wall, and we also see that
there is air in the tissues of the chest wall here and here.
It is rather obvious.
Mr. SPECTER. When you say here and here, you are referring to the outer
portions, showing on the X-ray moving up toward the shoulder area?
Dr. SHAW. Yes; going from the lower chest up to the region near the angle
of the shoulder blade.
The honey framework of the chest, it is obvious that the fifth rib, we
count ribs from above downward, this is the first rib, second rib, third rib,
fourth rib, fifth rib, that a portion of this rib has been shattered, and we can
see a few fragments that have been left behind.
Also the rib has because of being broken and losing some of its
substance, has taken a rather inward position in relation to the fourth and the
sixth ribs on either side.
Mr. SPECTER. What effect was there, if any, on the upper portion of that
rib?
Dr. SHAW. This was not noticed at the time of this examination, Mr.
Specter. However, in subsequent examinations we can tell that there was a
fracture across the rib at this point due to the rib being struck and bent.
Mr. SPECTER. When you say this point, will you describe where that point
exists on the X-ray?
Dr. SHAW. This is a point approximately 4 centimeters from its connection
with the transverse process of the spine.
Mr. SPECTER. And is the fracture, which is located there, caused by a
striking there or by the striking at the end of the rib?
Dr. SHAW. It is caused by the striking at the end of the rib.
Mr. SPECTER. Fine. What else
then is discernible from the viewing of the X-ray, Dr. Shaw?
Dr. SHAW. There is a great amount of, we would say, obscuration of the
lower part of the right lung field which we know from subsequent examination was
due to blood in the pleural cavity and also due to a hematoma in the lower part
of the right lower lobe and also a severe laceration of the middle lobe with it
having lost its ability to ventilate at that time.
So, we have both an airless lung, and blood in the lung to account for
these shadows.
Mr. SPECTER. Is there anything else visible from the X-ray which is
helpful in our understanding of the Governor's condition?
Dr. SHAW. No; I don't think so.
Mr. SPECTER. Would it be useful--As to that X-ray, Dr. Shaw, will you
tell us what identifying data, if any, it has in the records of
Dr. SHAW. On this X-ray it has in pencil John G. Connally.
Mr. SPECTER. Is that G or C?
Dr. SHAW. They have a "G" November 22, 1963, and it has a
number 218-922.
Mr. SPECTER. Were those X-rays taken under your supervision?
Dr. SHAW. Yes, by a technician.
Mr. SPECTER. And that is, in fact, the X-ray then which was taken of
Governor Connally at the time these procedures were being performed?
Dr. SHAW. It is.
Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw, would any of the other X-rays be helpful in our
understanding of the Governor's condition?
Dr. SHAW. I believe the only--perhaps showing one additional X-ray would
106
Page
107
show
the fracture previously described which was not easily discernible on the first
film. This is quite often true but not important to the
here is the fracture that can be easily seen.
Mr. SPECTER. You are now referring to a separate and second X-ray.
Dr. SHAW. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Will you start out by telling us on what date this X-ray was
performed.
Dr. SHAW. This X-ray was made on the 29th of November 1963. 7 days
following the incident.
Mr. SPECTER. What does it show of significance?
Dr. SHAW. It shows that there has been considerable clearing in the lower
portion of the lung, and also that there is a fracture of the fifth rib as
previously described approximately 4 centimeters from the transverse process
posteriorly.
Mr. SPECTER. Is there anything else depicted by that X-ray of material
assistance in evaluating the Governor's wound?
Dr. SHAW. No.
Mr. McCLOY. Were there any photographs taken as distinguished from X-rays
of the body?
Dr. SHAW. There were no photographs.
Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw, we shall then, subject to the approval of the
Commission, for the record, have the X-rays reproduced at Parkland Memorial
Hospital, and, if possible, also have a photograph of the X-ray made for the
permanent records of the Commission to show the actual X-ray, which Dr. Shaw has
described during his testimony here this afternoon.
Senator COOPER. It is directed that it be made a part of the record of
these hearings.
Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw, what additional operative procedures did you
perform on Governor Connally's chest?
Dr. SHAW. I will continue with my description of the operative procedure.
The opening that had been made through the rib after the removal of the
fragments was adequate for further exploration of the pleural cavity.
A self-retaining retractor was put into place to maintain exposure.
Inside the pleural cavity there were approximately 200 cc. of clotted blood.
It was found that the middle lobe had been lacerated with the laceration
dividing the lobe into roughly two equal parts.
The laceration ran from the lower tip of the middle lobe up into its root
or hilum.
However, the lobe was not otherwise damaged, so that it could he repaired
using a running suture of triple zero chromic catgut.
The anterior basal segments of the right lower lobe had a large hematoma,
and blood was oozing out of one small laceration that was a little less than a
centimeter in length, where a rib fragment had undoubtedly been driven into the
lobe. To control hemorrhage a single suture of triple zero chromic gut was
placed in this laceration. There
were several small matchstick size fragments of rib within the pleural cavity.
Examination, however, of the pericardium of the diaphragm and the upper
lobe revealed no injury to these parts of the chest.
A drain was placed in the eighth space in the posterior axillary line
similar to the drain which had been placed in the second interspace in the front
of the chest.
The drain in the front of the chest was thought to be a little too long
so about 3 centimeters of it were cut away.
Attention was then turned on the laceration of the latissimus dorsi
muscle where the missile had passed through it.
Several sutures of chromic gut where used to repair this muscle.
The incision was then closed with interrupted No. zero chromic gut in the
muscles of the chest wall--first, I am sorry, in the intercostale muscle, and
muscles of the chest wall, and the same suture material was used to close the
serratus anterior muscle in the subcutaneous tissue, and interrupted vertical
sutures of black silk were used to close the skin.
Attention was then turned to the wound of entrance which, as previously
described, was about a centimeter and a half in its greatest diameter, roughly
107
Page
108
elliptical
in shape. The skin edges of this
wound were incised excised, I beg
your pardon--I have to go back just a little bit.
Prior to examination of this wound, a stab wound was made at the angle of
the scapula to place a drain in the subscapular space.
In the examination of the wound of entrance, the examining finger could
determine that this drain was immediately under the wound of entrance, so that
it was adequately draining the space.
Two sutures were placed in the facia of the muscle, and the skin was
closed with interrupted vertical matching sutures of black silk.
That concluded the operation. Both
tubes were connected to a water seal bottle, and the dressing was applied.
Mr. SPECTER. Who was in charge then of the subsequent care on the
Governor's wrist?
Dr. SHAW. Dr. Charles Gregory who had been previously alerted and then
came in to take care of the wrist.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, with respect to the wound on the wrist, did you have
any opportunity to examine it by way of determining points of entry and exit?
Dr. SHAW. My examination of the wrist was a very cursory one.
I could tell that there was a compound comminuted fracture because there
was motion present, and there was a ragged wound just over the radius above the
wrist joint. But that was the extent of my examination of the wrist.
Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw, did I take your deposition at
Dr. SHAW. Yes; you did.
Mr. SPECTER. Has that deposition been made available to you?
Dr. SHAW. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. To you here this afternoon?
Dr. SHAW. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you subsequent to the giving of that deposition on
March 23, 1964, had an opportunity to examine Governor Connally's clothing which
we have available in the Commission room here today?
Dr. SHAW. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, based on all facts now within your knowledge, is there
any modification which you would care to make in terms of the views which you
expressed about entrance and exit wounds back on March 23, based on the
information which was available to you at that time?
Dr. SHAW. From an examination of the clothing, it is very obvious that
the wound of entrance was through the coat sleeve.
Mr. SPECTER. While you are testifying in that manner, perhaps it would be
helpful if we would make available to you the actual Jacket, if it pleases the
Commission.
We shall reserve Exhibits Nos. 681 for the X-ray of November 22; 682 for
the X-ray of November 29; and we shall now mark a photograph of the coat for our
permanent records as "Commission Exhibit No. 683".
Dr. Shaw, I hand you at this time what purports to be the coat worn by
Governor Connally, which we introduce subject to later proof when Governor
Connally appears later this afternoon; and, for the record, I ask you first of
all if this photograph, designated as Commission Exhibit No. 683, is a picture
of this suit coat?
Dr. SHAW. It is.
Mr. SPECTER. I had interrupted you when you started to refer to the hole
in the sleeve of the coat. Will you
proceed with what you were testifying about there?
Dr. SHAW. The hole in the sleeve of the coat is within hall a centimeter
of the very edge of the sleeve, and lies----
Mr. DULLES. This is the right sleeve, is it not?
Dr. SHAW. I am sorry, yea Thank
you. Of the right sleeve, and places
it, if the coat sleeve was in the same position, assuming it is in the same
position that my coat sleeve is in, places it directly over the lateral portion
of the wrist, really not directly on the volar or the dorsum of the surface of
the wrist,
108
Page
109
but
on the lateral position or the upper position, as the wrist is held in a neutral
position.
Mr. SPECTER. With the additional information provided by the coat, would
that enable you to give an opinion as to which was the wound of entrance and
which the wound of exit on the Governor's wrist?
Dr. SHAW. There is only one tear in the Governor's garment as far as the
appearance of the tear is concerned, I don't think I could render an opinion as
to whether this is a wound of entrance or exit.
Mr. SPECTER. Then, do you have sufficient information at your disposal in
total, based on your observations and what you know now to give any meaningful
opinion as to which was the wound of entrance and which the wound of exit on the
Governor's wrist?
Dr. SHAW. I would prefer to have Dr. Gregory testify about that, because
he has examined it more carefully than I have.
Mr. SPECTER. Fine.
Mr. DULLES. Could you tell at all how the arm was held from that mark or
that hole in the sleeve?
Dr. SHAW. Mr. Dulles, I thought I knew Just how the Governor was wounded
until I saw the pictures today, and it becomes a little bit harder to explain.
I felt that the wound had been caused by the same bullet that came out
through the chest with the Governor's arm held in approximately this position.
Mr. SPECTER. Indicating the right hand held close to the body?
Dr. SHAW. Yes, and this is still a possibility.
But I don't feel that it is the only possibility.
Senator COOPER. Why do you say you don't think it is the only
possibility? What causes you now to say that it is the location----
Dr. SHAW. This is again the testimony that I believe Dr. Gregory will be
giving, too. It is a matter of whether the wrist wound could be caused by the
same bullet, and we felt that it could but we had not seen the bullets until
today, and we still do not know which bullet actually inflicted the wound on
Governor Connally.
Mr. DULLES. Or whether it was one or two wounds?
Dr. SHAW. Yes.
Mr. DULLES. Or two bullets?
Dr. SHAW. Yes; or three.
Mr. DULLES. Why do you say three?
Dr. SHAW. He has three separate wounds.
He has a wound in the chest, a wound of the wrist, a wound of the thigh.
Mr. DULLES. Oh, yes; we haven't. come to the wound of the thigh yet, have
we?
Mr. McCLOY. You have no firm opinion that all these three wounds were
caused by one bullet?
Dr. SHAW. I have no firm opinion.
Mr. McCLOY. That is right.
Dr. SHAW. Asking me this now if it was true. If you had asked me a month
ago I would have.
Mr. DULLES. Could they have been caused by one bullet, in your opinion?
Dr. SHAW. They could.
Mr. McCLOY. I gather that what the witness is saying is that it is
possible that. they might have been caused by one bullet.
But that he has no firm opinion now that they were.
Mr. DULLES. As I understand it too. Is
our understanding correct?
Dr. SHAW. That is correct.
Senator COOPER. When you say all three are you referring to the wounds
you have just described to the chest, the wound in the wrist, and also the wound
in the thigh?
Dr. SHAW. Yes.
Senator COOPER. It was possible?
Dr. SHAW. Our original assumption, Senator Cooper, was that the Governor
was approximately in this attitude at the time he was----
Senator COOPER. What attitude is that now?
Dr. SHAW. This is an attitude sitting in a jump seat as we know he was,
109
Page
110
upright,
with his right forearm held across the lower portion of the chest. In this
position, the trajectory of the bullet could have caused the wound of entrance,
the wound of exit, struck his wrist and proceeded on into the left thigh.
But although this is a possibility, I can't give a firm opinion that this
is the actual way in which it occurred.
Mr. SPECTER. If it pleases the Commission, we propose to go through that
in this testimony; and we have already started to mark other exhibits in
sequence on the clothing. So that it
will be more systematic, we plan to proceed with the identification of clothing
and then go on to the composite diagram which explains the first hypothesis of
Dr. Shaw and the other doctors of Park- land.
And then proceed from that, as I intend to do, with an examination of the
bullet, which will explore the thinking of the doctor on that subject.
Dr. Shaw, for our record, I will hand you Commission Exhibit No. 684 and
ask you if that is a picture of the reverse side of the coat, which we will
later prove to have been worn by Governor Connally, the coat which is before
you?
Dr. SHAW. It is.
Mr. SPECTER. What, if anything, appears on the back of that coat and also
on the picture in line with the wound which you have described on the Governor's
posterior chest?
Dr. SHAW. The picture the
coat and the picture of the coat, show a rent in the back of the coat
approximately 2- centimeters medial to the point where the sleeve has been
joined to the main portion of the garment.
The lighter-colored material of the lining of the coat can be seen
through this rent in the coat.
Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw, I show you a shirt, subject to later proof that it
was the shirt worn by Governor Connally, together with a photograph marked
"Commission Exhibit No. 685," and ask you if that is a picture of that
shirt, the back side of the shirt?
Dr. SHAW. Yes; it is a picture of the back side of the shirt.
However, in this particular picture I am not able to make out the hole in
the shirt very well.
Now I see it, I believe; yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe the hole as you see it to exist in the
shirt? Aside from what you see on the picture, what hole do you observe on the
back of the shirt itself?
Dr. SHAW. On the back of the shirt itself there is a hole, a punched out
area of the shirt which is a little more than a centimeter in its greater
diameter. The whole shirt is soiled by brown stains which could have been due to
blood.
Mr. SPECTER. How does the hole in the back of the shirt correspond with
the wound on the Governor's back?
Dr. SHAW. It does correspond exactly.
Mr. SPECTER. Now turning the same shirt over to the front side, I ask you
if the photograph, marked "Commission Exhibit No. 386," is a picture
of the front side of this shirt?
Dr. SHAW. It is.
Mr. SPECTER. What does the picture of the shirt show with respect to a
hole, if any, on the right side of the front of the shirt?
Dr. SHAW. The picture and the shirt show on the right side a much larger
rent in the garment with the rent being approximately 4 centimeters in its
largest diameter.
Mr. SPECTER. What wound, if any, did the Governor sustain on his thigh,
Dr. Shaw?
Mr. DULLES. Just one moment, are you leaving this?
Mr. SPECTER. Yes.
Mr. DULLES. I wonder whether or not it would not be desirable for the
doctor to put on this photograph where these holes are, because they are not at
all clear for the future if we want to study those photographs.
Dr. SHAW. This one is not so hard.
Mr. DULLES. That one appears but the other one doesn't appear and I think
it would be very helpful.
Dr. SHAW. How would you like to have me outline this?
110
Page
111
Mr. SPECTER. Draw a red circle of what you conceive to be the hole there,
Doctor.
Mr. DULLES. The actual hole is not nearly as big as your circle, it is
the darkened area inside that circle, is it not?
Dr. SHAW. Yes; the darkened area is enclosed by the circle.
Mr. SPECTER. Are you able to note on the photograph of the back of the
shirt, 685?
Will you draw a red circle around the area of the hole on the photograph
then, Dr. Shaw?
Mr. DULLES. Would you just initial those two circles, if you can.
Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw, what wounds, if any, did the Governor sustain on
his left thigh?
Dr. SHAW. He sustained a small puncture-type wound on the medial aspect
of the left thigh.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you have an opportunity to examine that closely?
Dr. SHAW. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you have an opportunity to examine it sufficiently to
ascertain its location on the left thigh?
Dr. SHAW. No; I didn't examine it that closely, except for its general
location.
Mr. SPECTER. Where was it with respect to a general location then on the
Governor's thigh?
Dr. SHAW. It is on the medial anterior aspect of the thigh.
Mr. DULLES. Nontechnically, what does it mean?
Dr. SHAW. Well, above, slightly above, between, in other words, the
medial aspect would be the aspect toward the middle of the body, but as far as
being how many centimeters or inches it is from the knee and the groin, I am not
absolutely sure.
Mr. SPECTER. I now show you a pair of trousers which we shall later
identify as being those worn by the Governor.
I will, first of all, ask you if a photograph bearing Commission Exhibit
No. 687 is a picture of those trousers?
Dr. SHAW. It is.
Mr. SPECTER. And what hole, if any did you observe on the trousers and on
the picture of the trousers?
Dr. SHAW. There is a hole in the garment that has been made by some
instrument which has carried away a part of the Governor's garment.
In other words, it is not a tear but is a punched out hole, and this is
approximately 4 centimeters on the inner aspect from the crease of the trousers.
Mr. DULLES. Can you tell where the knee is there and how far above the
knee approximately?
Dr. SHAW. I can't tell exactly.
Mr. DULLES. I guess you can't tell.
Dr. SHAW. From the crotch I would say it would be slightly, it is a
little hard to tell, slightly more toward the knee than the groin.
Mr. SPECTER. Does that hole in the left leg of the trousers match up to
the wound on the left thigh of the Governor?
Dr. SHAW. To the best of my recollection it does.
Mr. DULLES. Are there any other perforations in these trousers at all,
any other holes?
Dr. SHAW. No.
Mr. DULLES. So that means that whatever made the hole on the front side
did not come through and make a hole anywhere else in the trousers?
Dr. SHAW. That is correct. It
had to be a penetrating wound and not a perforating wound, it didn't go on
through.
Mr. SPECTER. Will you turn those trousers over, Dr. Shaw?
Dr. SHAW. I believe we had already looked at it.
Mr. SPECTER. On the reverse side, and state whether or not this picture
bearing Commission Exhibit No. 688 accurately depicts the reverse side of the
trousers?
Dr. SHAW. Yes; it does.
Mr. SPECTER. Is there any hole shown either on the picture or on the
trousers themselves?
Dr. SHAW. No.
111
Page
112
Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw, I now show you a body diagram which is marked
"Commission Exhibit No. 689."
Senator COOPER. May I ask a question before you ask that question?
When you first saw Governor Connally in the emergency room was he dressed
or undressed?
Dr. SHAW. His trousers were still on.
He had his shorts on, I should say, Senator Cooper, but his coat, shirt,
and trousers had been removed.
Mr. SPECTER. Were his clothes anywhere in the vicinity where you could
have seen them?
Dr. SHAW. No; I never saw them. This
is the first time that I saw them.
Mr. SPECTER. That is earlier today when you examined them in this room?
Dr. SHAW. That is Correct.
Mr. SPECTER. Looking at Commission Exhibit No. 689, is that a drawing
which was prepared, after consultation with you, representing the earlier theory
of all of the Governor's wounds having been inflicted by a single missile?
Dr. SHAW. That is Correct.
Mr. SPECTER. With reference to that diagram, would you explain the
position that you had earlier thought the Governor to have been in when he was
wounded here?
Dr. SHAW. We felt that the Governor was in an upright sitting position,
and at the time of wounding was turning slightly to the right.
This would bring the three wounds, as we know them, the wound in the
chest, the wound in the wrist, and the wound in the thigh into a line assuming
that the right forearm was held against the lower right chest in front.
The line of inclination of this particular diagram is a little more
sharply downward than is probably correct in view of the inclination of the ribs
of the chest.
Mr. SPECTER. Will you redraw that line, Dr. Shaw, to conform with what
you believe to be----
Dr. SHAW. The fact that the muscle bundles on either side of the fifth
rib were not damaged meant that the missile to strip away 10 centimeters of the
rib had to follow this rib pretty much along its line of inclination.
Mr. DULLES. I wonder if you could use that red pencil to make it a little
clearer for us?
Dr. SHAW. I think these would probably work well on this paper.
Perhaps this isn't a tremendous paint but it slopes just a little too
much.
Mr. SPECTER. You have initialed that to show your incline?
Dr. SHAW. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. With respect to the wound you described on the thigh, Dr.
Shaw, was there any point of exit as to that wound?
Dr. SHAW. No.
Mr. SPECTER. I now show you----
Mr. DULLES. Could I ask one more question there, how deep was the wound
of entry, could you tell at all?
Dr. SHAW. Mr. Dulles, I didn't examine the wound of the thigh so I can't
testify as to that. Dr. Gregory, I
think, was there at the time that the debris was carried out and he may have
more knowledge than I have.
Mr. DULLES. We will hear Dr. Gregory later?
Mr. SPECTER. Yes; he is scheduled to testify as soon as Dr. Shaw
concludes.
Dr. Shaw, I now show you Commission Exhibit 399 which has heretofore been
identified as being a virtually whole bullet weighing 158 grains.
May I say for the record, that in the depositions which have been taken
in Parkland Hospital, that we have ascertained, and those depositions are part
of the overall record, that is the bullet which came from the stretcher of
Governor Connally.
First, Dr. Shaw, have you had a chance to examine that bullet earlier
today?
Dr. SHAW. Yes; I examined it this morning.
Mr. SPECTER. Is it possible that the bullet which went through the
Governor's chest could have emerged being as fully intact as that bullet is?
Dr. SHAW. Yes; I believe it is possible because of the fact that the
bullet
112
Page
113
struck
the fifth rib at a very acute angle and struck a portion of the rib which would
not offer a great amount of resistance.
Mr. SPECTER. Does that bullet appear to you to have any of its metal
flaked off?
Dr. SHAW. I have been told
that the one point on the nose of this bullet that is deformed was cut off for
purposes of examination. With that
information, I would have to say that this bullet has lost literally none of its
substance.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, as to the wound on the thigh, could that bullet have
gone into the Governor's thigh without causing any more damage than appears on
the face of that bullet?
Dr. SHAW. If it was a spent bullet; yes. As far as the bullet is
concerned it could have caused the Governor's thigh wound as a spent missile.
Mr. SPECTER. Why do you say it is a spent missile, would you elaborate on
what your thinking is on that issue?
Dr. SHAW. Only from what I have been told by Dr. Shires and Dr. Gregory,
that the depth of the wound was only into the subcutaneous tissue, not actually
into the muscle of the leg, so it meant that missile had penetrated for a very
short period. Am I quoting you correctly, Dr. Gregory?
Mr. SPECTER. May the record show Dr. Gregory is present during this
testimony and----
Dr. GREGORY. I will say yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And indicates in the affirmative.
Do you have sufficient knowledge of the wound of the wrist to render an
opinion as to whether that bullet could have gone through Governor Connally's
wrist and emerged being as much intact as it is?
Dr. SHAW. I do not.
Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw, assume if you will certain facts to be true in
hpyothetical form, that is, that the President was struck in the upper portion
of the back or lower portion of the neck with a 6.5-mm. missile passing between
the strap muscles of the President's neck, proceeding through a facia channel
striking no bones, not violating the pleural cavity, and emerging through the
anterior third of the neck, with the missile having been fired from a weapon
having a muzzle velocity of approximately 2,000 feet per second, with the muzzle
being approximately 160 to 250 feet from the President's body; that the missile
was a copper jacketed bullet. Would it be possible for that bullet to have then
proceeded approximately 4 or 5 feet and then would it be possible for it to have
struck Governor Connally in the back and have inflicted the wound which you have
described on the posterior aspect of his chest, and also on the anterior aspect
of his chest?
Dr. SHAW. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And what would your reason be for giving an affirmative
answer to that question, Dr. Shaw?
Dr. SHAW. Because I would feel that a missile with this velocity and
weight striking no more than the soft tissues of the neck would have adequate
velocity and mass to inflict the wound that we found on the Governor's chest.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, without respect to whether or not the bullet identified
as Commission Exhibit 399 is or is not the one which inflicted the wound on the
Governor, is it possible that a missile similar to the one which I have just
described in the hypothetical question could have inflicted all of the
Governor's wounds in accordance with the theory which you have outlined on
Commission Exhibit No. 689?
Dr. SHAW. Assuming that it also had passed through the President's neck
you mean?
Mr. SPECTER. No; I had not added that factor in.
I will in the next question.
Dr. SHAW. All right. As far
as the wounds of the chest are concerned, I feel that this bullet could have
inflicted those wounds. But the
examination of the wrist both by X-ray and at the time of surgery showed some
fragments of metal that make it difficult to believe that the same missile could
have caused these two wounds. There
seems to be more than three grains of metal missing as far as the I mean in the
wrist.
Mr. SPECTER. Your answer there, though, depends upon the assumption that
the bullet which we have identified as Exhibit 399 is the bullet which did the
113
Page
114
damage
to the Governor. Aside from whether
or not that is the bullet which inflicted the Governor's wounds.
Dr. SHAW. I see.
Mr. SPECTER. Could a bullet traveling in the path which I have described
in the prior hypothetical question, have inflicted nil of the wounds on the
Governor?
Dr. SHAW. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And so far as the velocity and the dimension of the bullet
are concerned, is it possible that the same bullet could have gone through the
President in the way that I have described and proceed through the Governor
causing all of his wounds without regard to whether or not it was bullet 399?
Dr. SHAW. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. When you started to comment about it not being possible, was
that in reference to the existing mass and shape of bullet 399?
Dr. SHAW. I thought you were referring directly to the bullet shown as
Exhibit 399.
Mr. SPECTER. What is your opinion as to whether bullet 399 could have
inflicted all of the wounds on the Governor, then, without respect at this point
to the wound of the President's neck?
Dr. SHAW. I feel that there would be some difficulty in explaining all of
the wounds as being inflicted by bullet Exhibit 399 without causing more in the
way of loss of substance to the bullet or deformation of the bullet.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw, have you had an opportunity today here in the
Cornmission building to view the movies which we referred to as the Zapruder
movies and the slides taken from these movies?
Dr. SHAW. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And what, if any, light did those movies shed on your
evaluation and opinions on this matter with respect to the wounds of the
Governor?
Dr. SHAW. Well, my main interest was to try to place the time that the
Governor was struck by the bullet which inflicted the wound on his chest in
reference to the sequence of the three shots, as has been described to us.
(At this point the Chief Justice entered the hearing room.)
This meant trying to carefully examine the position of the Governor's
body in the car so that it would fall in line with what we knew the trajectory
must be for this bullet coming from the point where it has been indicated it did
come from. And in trying to place
this actual frame that these frames are numbered when the Governor was hit, my
opinion was that it was frame number, let's see, I think it was No. 36.
Mr. SPECTER 236?
Dr. SHAW. 236, give or take 1 or 2 frames.
It was right in 35, 36, 37, perhaps.
Mr. SPECTER. I have heretofore asked you questions about what possibly
could have happened in terms of the various combinations of possibilities on
missiles striking the Governor in relationship to striking the President as
well. Do you have any opinion as to
what, in fact, did happen?
Dr. SHAW. Yes. From the
pictures, from the conversation with Governor Connally and Mrs. Connally, it
seems that the first bullet hit the President in the shoulder and perforated the
neck, but this was not the bullet that Governor Connally feels hit him; and in
the sequence of films I think it is hard to say that the first bullet hit both
of these men almost simultaneously.
Mr. SPECTER. Is that view based on the information which Governor
Connally provided to you?
Dr. SHAW. Largely.
Mr. SPECTER. As opposed to any objectively determinable facts from the
bullets, the situs of the wounds or your viewing of the pictures?
Dr. SHAW. Yes. I was
influenced a great deal by what Governor Connally knew about his movements in
the car at this particular time.
Mr. DULLES. You have indicated a certain angle of declination on this
chart here which the Chief Justice has.
Dr. SHAW. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you know enough about the angle of declination of the
bullet that hit the President to Judge at all whether these two angles of
declination are consistent?
114
Page
115
Dr. SHAW. We know that the angle of declination was a downward one from
hack to front so that I think this is consistent with the angle of declination
of the wound that the Governor sustained.
Senator COOPER. Are you speaking of the angle of declination in the
President's body?
Dr. SHAW. Of the first wound?
Mr. SPECTER. Yes.
Dr. SHAW. First wound.
Mr. SPECTER. What you have actually seen from pictures to show the angle
of declination?
Dr. SHAW. That is right.
Mr. SPECTER. In the wounds in the President's body?
Dr. SHAW. Yes; that is right. I did not examine the President.
Mr. DULLES. And that angle taking into account say the 4 feet difference
between where the President was sitting and where the Governor was sitting,
would be consistent with the point of entry of the Governor's body as you have
shown it?
Dr. SHAW. The jump seat in the car, as we could see, placed the Governor
sitting at a lower level than the President, and I think conceivably these two
wounds could have been caused by the same bullet.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything else to add, Dr. Shaw, which you think
would be helpful to the Commission in any way?
Dr. SHAW. I don't believe so Mr. Specter.
Mr. SPECTER. May it please the Commission then I would like to move into
evidence Commission Exhibits Nos. 679 and 680, and then reserve Nos. 681 and 682
until we get the photographs of the X-rays and I now move for admission into
evidence Commission Exhibits Nos. 683 through 689.
Senator COOPER. They have all been identified, have they?
Mr. SPECTER. Yes, sir; during the course of Dr. Shaw's testimony.
Senator COOPER. It is ordered then that these exhibits be received in the
record.
(The documents referred to, previously identified as Commission Exhibits
Nos. 679, 680, and 683-689 for identification were received in evidence.)
Mr. McCLOY. Just one or two questions.
It is perfectly clear, Doctor, that the wound, the lethal wound on the
President did not--the bullet that caused the lethal wound on the President, did
not cause any wounds on Governor Connally, in your opinion?
Dr. SHAW. Mr. McCloy, I couldn't say that from my knowledge.
Mr. McCLOY. We are talking about the, following up what Mr. Dulles said
about the angle of declination, the wound that came through the President's
collar, you said was consistent between the same bullet. I just wondered whether
under all the circumstances that you know about the President's head wound on
the top that would also be consistent with a wound in Governor Connally's body?
Dr. SHAW. On the chest, yes; I am not so sure about the wrist.
I can't quite place where his wrist was at the time his chest was struck.
Mr. McCLOY. Now perhaps this is Dr. Gregory's testimony, that is the full
description of the wrist wound, that would be his rather than your testimony?
Dr. SHAW. I think he could throw just as much light on it as I could.
And more in certain aspects.
Mr. McCLOY. It did hit bone?
Dr. SHAW. Obviously.
Mr. McCLOY. And there must have been a considerable diminution in the
velocity of the bullet after penetrating through the wrist?
Dr. SHAW. Yes.
Mr. DULLES. The wound inflicted on it, the chest wound on Governor
Connally, if you move that an inch or two, 1 inch or the other, could that have
been lethal, go through an area that could easily have been lethal?
Dr. SHAW. Yes; of course, if it had been moved more medially it could
have struck the heart and the great vessels.
Mr. McCLOY. Let me ask you this, Doctor, in your experience with gunshot
wounds, is it possible for a man to be hit sometime before he realizes it?
115
Page
116
Dr. SHAW. Yes. There can be a delay in the sensory reaction.
Mr. McCLOY. Yes; so that a man can think as of a given instant he was not
hit, and when actually he could have been hit.
Dr. SHAW. There can be an extending. sensation and then just a gradual
building up of a feeling of severe injury.
Mr. McCLOY. But there could be a delay in any appreciable reaction
between the time of the impact of the bullet and the occurrence?
Dr. SHAW. Yes; but in the case of a wound which strikes a bony substance
such as a rib, usually the reaction is quite prompt.
Mr. McCLOY. Yes.
Dr. SHAW. Yes.
Mr. McCLOY. Now, you have indicated, I think, that this bullet traveled
along, hit and traveled along the path of the rib, is that right?
Dr. SHAW. Yes.
Mr. McCLOY. Is it possible that it could have not, the actual bullet
could not have hit the rib at all but it might have been the expanding flesh
that would cause the wound or the proper contusion, I guess you would call it on
the rib itself?
Dr. SHAW. I think we would have to postulate that the bullet hit the rib
itself by the neat way in which it stripped the rib out without doing much
damage to the muscles that lay on either side of it.
Mr. McCLOY. Was---up until you gave him the anesthetic--the Governor was
fully conscious, was he?
Dr. SHAW. I would not say fully, but he was responsive.
He would answer questions.
Mr. McCLOY. I think that is all I have.
The CHAIRMAN. I have no questions of the doctor.
Mr. DULLES. There were no questions put to him that were significant as
far as our testimony is concerned?
Dr. SHAW. No; we really don't
have to question him much. Our
problem was pretty clearcut, and he told us it hurt and that was about his only
response as far as----
Senator COOPER. Could I ask you a question, doctor?
I think you said from the time you came into the emergency room and the
time you went to the operating room was about 5 minutes?
Dr. SHAW. Yes; it was just the time that it took to ask a few simple
questions, what has been done so far, and has the operating room been alerted,
and then I went out and talked to Mrs. Connally, just very briefly, I told her
what the problem was in respect to the Governor and what we were going to have
to do about it and she said to go ahead with anything that was necessary.
So this couldn't have taken more than 5 minutes or so.
Mr. DULLES. Did he say anything or did anyone say anything there about
the circumstances of the shooting?
Dr. SHAW. Not at that time.
Mr. DULLES. Either of Governor Connally or the President?
Dr. SHAW. Not at that time. All of our conversation was later.
Mr. DULLES. Was the President in the same room?
Dr. SHAW. No.
Mr. DULLES. Did you see him?
Dr. SHAW. I only saw his shoes and his feet. He was in the room
immediately opposite. As I came into
the hallway, I could recognize that the President was on it, in the room to my
right. I knew that my problem was concerned with Governor Connally, and I turned
and went into the room where I saw that he was.
Mr. DULLES. Did you hear at that time or have any knowledge, of a bullet
which had been found on the stretcher?
Dr. SHAW. No; this was later knowledge.
Mr. DULLES. When did you first hear that?
(At this point Senator Russell entered the hearing room.)
Dr. SHAW. This information was first given to me by a man from the Secret
Service who interviewed me in my office several weeks later. It is the first
time I knew about any bullet being recovered.
116
Page
117
Senator COOPER. I think, of course, it is evident from your testimony you
have had wide experience in chest wounds and bullet wounds in the chest.
What experience have you had in, say, the field of ballistics?
Would this experience you
have been dealing in chest wounds caused by bullets--have provided you knowledge
also about the characteristics of missiles, particularly bullets of this type?
Dr. SHAW. No; Senator. I believe that my information about ballistics is
just that of an average layman, no more. Perhaps
a little more since I have seen deformed bullets from wounds, but I haven't gone
into that aspect of wounds.
Senator COOPER. In the answers to the hypothetical questions that were
addressed to you, based upon the only actual knowledge which you could base that
answer, was the fact that you had performed the operation on the wound caused in
the chest, on the wound in the chest?
Dr. SHAW. That is true. I have seen many bullets that have passed through
bodies or have penetrated bodies and have struck bone and I know manners from
which they are deformed but I know very little about the caliber of bullets, the
velocity of bullets, many things that other people have much more knowledge of
than I have.
Senator COOPER. That is all.
The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much, Dr. Shaw.
Dr.
Charles Francis Gregory
Page
117
TESTIMONY
OF DR. CHARLES FRANCIS GREGORY
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dr.
SHAW Volume VI
TESTIMONY
OF DR. ROBERT SHAW
The testimony of Dr. Robert
Shaw was taken at 6 p.m., on March 23, 1964, at
Mr. SPECTER. May the record
show that Dr. Robert Shaw is present, having responded to a request to have his
deposition taken in connection with the President's Commission on the
Assassination of President Kennedy, which is investigating all facts relating to
the medical care of President Kennedy and Governor Connally, and Dr. Shaw has
been requested to appear and testify concerning the treatment on Governor
Connally.
Dr. Shaw, will you rise and raise your right hand, please.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give before the President's
Commission in the course of this deposition proceeding will be the truth, the
whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Dr. SHAW. I do.
Mr. SPECTER Will you state your full name for the record, please?
83
Page
84
Dr. SHAW. Robert Roeder Shaw.
Mr. SPECTER. And what is your profession, sir?
Dr. SHAW. Physician and surgeon.
Mr. SPECTER. Will you outline briefly your educational background,
please?
Dr. SHAW. I received my B.A. degree from the
Mr. SPECTER. Yes; will you outline your medical career in brief form
subsequent to that date, please?
Dr.
SHAW. I entered private practice, limited to thoracic surgery, August 1, 1938.
I have continuously practiced this specialty in
Mr. SPECTER. Are you Board certified, Dr. Shaw?
Dr. SHAW. Yes. I am certified
'by the Board of Thoracic Surgery, date of certification--1948. At the present
time I am professor of thoracic surgery and chairman of the division of thoracic
surgery at the
Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to perform any medical care for
President Kennedy on November 22, 1963?
Dr. SHAW. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to care for Governor Connally?
Dr. SHAW. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you relate the circumstances of your being called in
to care for the Governor, please?
Dr. SHAW. I was returning to Parkland Hospital and the medical school
from a conference I had attended at Woodlawn Hospital, which is approximately a
mile away, when I saw an open limousine going past the intersection of
Industrial Boulevard and Harry Hines Boulevard under police escort.
As soon as traffic had cleared, I proceeded on to the medical school.
On the car radio I heard that the President had been shot at while riding
in the motorcade. Upon entering the medical school, a medical student came in
and joined three other medical students. He stated that President Kennedy had
been brought in dead on arrival to the emergency room of
Mr. SPECTER. Where did you find Governor Connally at that time, Dr. Shaw?
Dr. SHAW. I found Governor Connally lying on a stretcher in emergency
room No. 2. In attendance were
several men, Dr. James Duke, Dr. David Mebane, Dr. Giesecke, an
anesthesiologist. As emergency
measures, the open wound on the Governor's right chest had been covered with. a
heavy dressing and manual pressure was being applied.
A drainage tube had been inserted into the second interspace in the
anterior portion of the right chest and connected to a water-sealed bottle to
bring about partial reexpansion of the collapsed right lung.
An intravenous needle had been inserted into a vein in the left arm and
intravenous fluid was running.
I
was informed by Dr. Duke that blood had already been drawn and sent to the
laboratory to be crossmatched with 4 pints of blood to be available at surgery.
He also stated that the operating room had been alerted and that they
were merely waiting for my arrival to take the Governor to surgery, since it was
obvious that the wound would have to be debrided and closed.
Mr..SPECTER. At what time did the operation actually start, Dr. Shaw?
Dr.
SHAW. That, I would have to refresh my memory on that--now, this, of course--the
point he began the anesthesia--that would be about right--but I have to refresh
my memory.
84
Page
85
Mr.
SPECTER. Permit me to make available on the record for you the operative record
which has been heretofore marked as Commission Exhibit No. 392, with the exhibit
consisting of the recorded of Parkland Hospital on President Kennedy as well as
Governor Connally and I call your attention to a 2-page report which bears your
name as the surgeon, under date of November 22, 1963, of thoracic surgery for
Governor Connally, and, first, I ask you if in fact this report was prepared by
you?
Dr. SHAW. It was.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, with that report, is your recollection refreshed as to
the starting time of the operation on Governor Connally's chest?
Dr. SHAW. Yes; the anesthesia was begun at 1300 hours.
Mr. SPECTER. Which would be 1 p.m. ?
Dr. SHAW. 1 p.m., and the actual incision was made at 1335 or 1:35 p.m.
Mr. SPECTER. And what time did that operation conclude?
Dr. SHAW. My operation was completed at 1520 hours, or 3:20.
Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe Governor Connally's condition, Dr. Shaw,
directing your attention first to the wound on his back?
Dr. SHAW. When Governor Connally was examined,, it was found that there
was a small wound of entrance, roughly elliptical in shape, and approximately a
cm. and a half in its longest diameter, in the right posterior shoulder, which
is medial to the fold of the axilla.
Mr. SPECTER. What is the axilla, in lay language, Dr Shaw?
Dr. SHAW. The arm pit.
Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw, will you describe next the wound of exit?
Dr.
SHAW. Yes; the wound of exit was below and slightly medial to the nipple on the
anterior right chest. It was a
round, ragged wound, approximately 5 cm. in diameter.
This wound had obviously torn the pleura, since it was a sucking wound,
allowing air to pass to and fro between the pleura cavity and the outside of the
body.
Mr. SPECTER Define the pleura, please. Doctor, in lay language.
Dr. SHAW. The pleura is the lining of the chest cavity with one layer of
pleura, the parietal pleura lining the inside of the chest wall, diaphragm and
the mediastinum, which is the compartment of the body containing the heart, its
pericardial sac, and great vessels.
Mr. SPECTER. What were the characteristics of these two bullet wounds
which led you to believe that one was a wound of entry and one was a wound of
exit, Dr Shaw?
Dr. SHAW. The wound of entrance is almost invariably the smaller wound,
since it perforates the skin and makes a wound approximately or slightly larger
than the missile. The wound of exit,
especially if it has shattered any bony material in the body, will be the larger
of the wounds.
Mr. SPECTER. What experience, Doctor, have you had, if any, in evaluating
gunshot wounds?
Dr.
SHAW. I have had considerable experience with gunshot wounds and wounds due to
missiles because of my war experience. This
experience was not only during the almost 2 years in
Mr. SPECTER. Would you be able to give an approximation of the total
number of bullet wounds you have had occasion to observe and treat?
Dr.
SHAW. Considering the war experience and the addition of wounds seen in civilian
practice, it probably would number well over a thousand, since we had over 900
admissions to the hospital in
Mr. SPECTER. What was the line of trajectory, Dr. Shaw, between the point
in the back of the Governor and the point in the front of the Governor, where
the bullet wounds were observed?
Dr. SHAW. Considering the wound of entrance and the wound of exit, the
trajectory of the bullet was obliquely downward, considering the fact that the
Governor was in a sitting position at the time of wounding.
Mr. SPECTER. As an illustrative guide here, Dr. Shaw--
Dr. SHAW. May I add one sentence there?
Mr. SPECTER. Please do.
85
Page
86
Dr. SHAW. The bullet, in
passing through the Governor's chest wall struck the fifth rib at its midpoint
and roughly followed the slanting direction of the fifth rib, shattering
approximately 10 cm. of the rib. The
intercostal muscle bundle above the fifth rib and below the fifth rib were
surprisingly spared from injury by the shattering of the rib, which again
establishes the trajectory of the bullet.
Mr. SPECTER. Would the
shattering of the rib have had any effect in deflecting the path of the bullet
from a straight line?
Dr. SHAW. It could have, except that in the case of this injury, the rib
was obviously struck so that not too dense cancellus portion of the rib in this
position was carried away by the bullet and probably there was very little in
the way of deflection.
Mr. SPECTER At this time, Dr. Shaw,. I would like to call your attention
to an exhibit which we have already had marked as Dr. Gregory's Exhibit No. 1,
because we have used this in the course of his deposition earlier today and this
is a body diagram, and I ask you, first of all, looking at Diagram No. 1, to
comment as to whether the point of entry marked on the right shoulder of
Governor Connally is accurate?
Dr. SHAW. Yes. The point of
entry as marked on this exhibit I consider to be quite accurate.
Mr. SPECTER. Is the size and dimension of the hole accurate on scale, or
would you care to make any adjustment or modification in that characterization
by picture?
Dr. SHAW. As the wound entry is marked on this figure, I would say that
the scale is larger than the actual wound or the actual depicting of the wound
should be. As I described it, it was
approximately a centimeter and a half in length.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you draw, Dr. Shaw, right above the shoulder as best
you can recollect, what that wound of entry appeared at the time you first
observed it? Would you put your initials right beside that?
(The witness, Dr. Shaw, complied with the request of Counsel Specter.)
Mr. SPECTER. Now, directing your attention to the figure right beside,
showing the front view, does the point of exit on the lower chest of the figure
there correspond with the point of exit on the body of Governor Connally?
Dr. SHAW. Yes; I would say that it conforms in every way except that it
was a little nearer to the right nipple than depicted here. Off the record, just
a minute.
(Discussion between Counsel
Specter and the witness, Dr. Shaw, off the record. )
Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw, in our off-the-record conversation, you called my
attention to your thought that the nipple line is incorrectly depicted on that
figure, would you, therefore, in ink mark on there the nipple line which would
be more accurate proportionately to that body?
Dr. SHAW. Yes; I feel the nipple line as shown on this figure is a little
high and should be placed at a lower point on the body, which would bring the
wound of exit, which I feel is in the proper position, more in line with the
actual position of the nipple.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, with the wound of exit as it is shown there, does that
correspond in position with the actual situation on Governor Connally's body as
you have redrawn the proportion to the nipple line?
Dr. SHAW. It does.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you put an "X" through the old nipple line
so we have obscured that and put your initials beside those two marks, if you
would, please?
Dr. SHAW. By the "X-1"?
Mr. SPECTER. Yes, please.
(The witness, Dr. Shaw,
complied with request of Counsel Specter in drawing on the figure heretofore
mentioned. )
Mr. SPECTER. Now, as to the proportion of the hole depicting the point of
exit, is that correct with respect to characterizing the situation on Governor
Connally?
Dr. SHAW. It is, and corresponds with the relative size of the two wounds
as I have shown on the other figure.
86
Page
87
Mr. SPECTER. Would you at this time, right above the right shoulder
there, draw the appearances of the point of exit as nearly as you can recollect
it on Governor Connally?
Dr. SHAW. This is right.
Mr. SPECTER You say the hole which appears on Governor Connally is just
about the size that it would have been on his body?
Dr. SHAW. Yes; it is drawn in good scale.
Mr. SPECTER In good scale to the body?
Dr. SHAW. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you draw
it on another portion of the paper here in of its absolute size?
Dr. SHAW. Five cm. it would be about like that--do you want me to mark
that?
Mr. SPECTER. Put your initials right in the center of that circle.
Dr. SHAW. I'll just put "wound of exit."
Mr. SPECTER Fine--just put "wound of exit--actual size" and put
your initials under it.
(The witness, Dr. Shaw, complied with request of Counsel Specter.)
Mr. SPECTER. Let the record show that Dr. Shaw has marked "wound of
exit--actual size" with his initials R.R.S. on the diagram 1.
Now, looking at diagram 2, Dr. Shaw, does the angle of declination on the
figure correspond with the angle that the bullet passed through Governor
Connally's chest?
Dr. SHAW. It does.
Mr. SPECTER. Is there any feature of diagram 3 which is useful in further
elaborating that which you have commented about on diagram 1?
Dr. SHAW. No. Again off the record?
Mr. SPECTER All right, off the record.
(Discussion between Counsel Specter and the witness, Dr. Shaw, off the
record.)
Mr.
SPECTER. You have just commented off the record, Dr. Shaw, that the wound of
entry is too large proportionately to the wound of exit, but aside from that, is
there anything else on diagram 3 which will be helpful to us?
Dr. SHAW. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Is there anything else on diagram 4 which would be helpful
by way of elaborating that which appeared on diagram 2?
Dr. SHAW. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Now as to the treatment or operative procedure which you
performed on Governor Connally, would you now describe what you did for him?
Dr.
SHAW. As soon as anesthesia had been established and an endotracheal tube was in
place so that respiration could be controlled with positive pressure, the large
occlusive dressing which had been applied in the emergency room was removed.
This permitted better inspection of the wound of exit, air passed to and fro
through the damaged chest wall, there was obvious softening of the bony
framework of the chest wall as evidenced by exaggerated motion underneath the
skin along the line of the trajectory of the missile.
The
skin of the chest wall axilla and back were thoroughly cleaned and aseptic
solution was applied for further cleaning of the skin, the whole area was draped
so as to permit access to both the wound of exit and the entrance wound.
Temporarily, the wound of entrance was covered with a sterile towel.
First an elliptical incision was made to remove the ragged edges of the
wound of exit. This incision was
then extended laterally and upward in a curved direction so as to not have the
incision through the skin and subcutaneous tissue directly over the line of the
trajectory of the bullet where the chest had been softened.
It
was found that approximately 10 cm. of the fifth rib had been shattered and the
rib fragments acting as secondary missiles had been the major contributing
factor to the damage to the anterior chest wall and to the underlying lung.
Mr. SPECTER. What do you mean, Doctor, by the words "fragments
acting as secondary missiles"?
87
731--222
0--64--vol. VI----7
Page
88
Dr. SHAW. When bone is struck by a high velocity missile it fragments and
acts much like bowling pins when they are struck by a bowling ball--they fly in
all directions.
Mr. SPECTER. Will you continue now and further describe the treatment
which you performed?
Dr.
SHAW. The bony fragments were removed along with all obviously damaged muscle.
It was found that the fourth and fifth intercoastal muscle bundles were
almost completely intact where the rib had been stripped out. There was damage
to the latissimus dorsi muscle, but this was more in the way of laceration, so
that the damage could be repaired by suture.
The portion of parietal pleura which had not been torn by the injury was
opened along the length of the resected, portion of the fifth rib. The jagged
ends of the fifth rib were cleaned with a rongeur; approximately 200 cc. of clot
and liquid blood was removed from the pleura cavity; inspection of the lung
revealed that the middle lobe had a long tear which separated the lobe into
approximately two equal segments. This
tear extended up into the hilum of the lobe, but had not torn a major bronchus
or a major blood vessel. The middle
lobe was repaired with a running No. 3 O chromic gut approximating the tissue of
the depths of the lobe, with two sutures, and then approximating the visceral
pleura on both the medial and lateral surface with a running suture of the same
material--same gut.
Upon
repair of the lobe it expanded well upon pressure on the anesthetic bag with
very little in the way of peripheral leak.
Attention was next turned to the lower lobe.
There was a large hematoma in the anterior basal segment of the right
lower lobe extending on into the median basal segment.
At one point there was a laceration in the surface of the lobe
approximating a centimeter in length, undoubtedly caused by one of the
penetrating rib fragments. A single
mattress suture No. 3 O chromic gut of an atromitac needle was used to close
this laceration from which blood was oozing.
Next, the diaphragm and all parts of the right mediastinum was examined
but no injury was found.
The portion of the drainage tube which had already been placed. in the
second interspace in the anterior axillary line which protruded into the chest
was cut away, since it was deemed to be longer than necessary.
A second drainage tube was placed through a stab wound in the eighth
interspace in the posterior axillary line and both of these tubes were connected
to a water sealed bottle. The fourth
and fifth intercoastal muscle bundles were then approximated with interrupted
sutures of No. O chromic gut.
The remaining portion of the serratus anterior muscle was then
approximated across the closure of the intercostal muscles.
The laceration at the latissimus dorsi muscle was then approximated with
No. O chromic guts suture. Before
closing the skin and subcutaneous tissue a stab wound approximately 2 cm. in
length was made near the lower tip of the right scapula and a latex rubber drain
was drawn up through this stab wound to drain subscapular space.
This drain was marked with a safety pin. The subcutaneous tissue was then
closed with interrupted sutures of No. O chromic gut, inverting the knots.
The skin was closed with interrupted vertical mattress sutures of black
silk.
Attention was next turned to the wound of entrance.
The skin surrounding the wound was removed in an elliptical fashion,
enlarging the incision to approximately 3 cm.
Examination of the depths of this wound reveal that the latissimus dorsi
muscle alone was injured, and the latex rubber drain could be felt immediately
below the laceration in the muscle. A
single mattress suture was used to close the laceration in the muscle.
The skin was then closed with interrupted vertical mattress sutures of
black silk. The drainage tubes going
into the pleura cavity were then secured with safety pins and adhesive tape and
a dressing applied to the entire incision. This
concluded the operation for the wound of the chest, and at this point Dr.
Gregory and Dr. Shires entered the operating room to care for the wounds of the
right wrist and left thigh.
Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe, Dr. Shaw, as to the wound of the right
wrist?
Dr. SHAW. Well, I would have to say that my observations are probably not
accurate. I knew that the wound of
the wrist had fractured the lower end of
88
Page
89
the
right radius and I saw one large wound on the
I guess you would call it the volar surface of the right arm and a small
wound on the dorsum of the right wrist.
Mr. SPECTER. Which appeared to you to be the point of entrance, Dr. Shaw?
Dr. SHAW. To me, I felt that the wound of entrance was the wound on the
volar surface or the anterior surface with the hand held in the upright or the
supine position, with the wound of exit being the small wound on the dorsum.
Mr. SPECTER. What were the characteristics of those wounds which led you
to that conclusion?
Dr.
SHAW. Although the wound of entrance, I mean, although the wound that I felt was
a wound of entrance was the larger of the two, it was my feeling that
considering the large wound of exit from the chest, that this was consistent
with the wound that I saw on the wrist. May we go off the record?
Mr. SPECTER. Sure.
(Discussion between Counsel Specter and the witness. Dr. Shaw off the
record.)
Mr. SPECTER Now, let's go back on the record.
Dr.
SHAW. I'll start by saying that my
examination of the wrist was a cursory one because I realized that Dr. Gregory
was going to have the responsibility of doing what was necessary surgically for
this wrist.
Mr. SPECTER. Had you conferred with him preliminarily to starting your
operation on the chest so that you knew he would be standing by, I believe as
you testified earlier, to perform the wrist operation?
Dr. SHAW. Yes--Dr. Gregory was in the hallway of the operating room
before I went in to operate on Governor Connally and while I was scrubbing
preparatory to the operation, I told him that there was a compound comminuted
fracture of the radius of the Governor's right hand that would need his
attention.
Mr. SPECTER. Let the record show that while we were off the record here a
moment ago, Dr. Shaw, you and I were discussing the possible angles at which the
Governor might have been sitting in relation to a trajectory of a bullet
consistent with the observations which you recollect and consistent with what
seems to have been a natural position for the Governor to have maintained, in
the light of your view of the situation. And
with that in mind, let me resume the questioning and put on the record very much
of the comments and observations you were making as you and I were discussing
off the record as this deposition has proceeded.
Now,
you have described a larger wound on the volar or palm side of the wrist than
was present on the dorsal or back side of the wrist, and you have expressed the
opinion that it was the point of entry on the volar side of the wrist as opposed
to a point of exit on the back side of the wrist, even though as you earlier
said, ordinarily the point of entry is smaller and the point of exit is larger.
Now, will you repeat for the record, Dr. Shaw, the thinking--your
thinking which might explain a larger point of entry and a smaller point of exit
on the wrist.
Dr. SHAW. Yes. As a matter of
fact, when I first examined Governor Connally's wrist, I did not notice the
small wound on the dorsum of the wrist and only saw the much larger wound on the
radial side of the volar surface of the wrist.
I didn't know about the second small wound until I came in when Dr.
Gregory was concluding his operation on the wrist.
He informed me that there was another small wound through the skin
through which a missile had obviously passed.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, which wound was that, Dr. Shaw?
Dr. SHAW. This was the wound on the dorsum or the dorsal surface of the
wrist.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you then observe that wound?
Dr. SHAW. Yes; I saw this wound.
Mr. SPECTER. And where was that wound located to the best of your
recollection ?
Dr.
SHAW. This wound was slightly more distal on the arm than the larger wound and
located almost in the midportion of the dorsum of the wrist.
89
Page
90
Mr.
SPECTER. Would that correspond with this location which I read from Dr.
Gregory's report on the dorsal aspect of the right wrist over the junction of
the distal fourth of the radius and shaft approximately 2 cm. in length.
Dr. SHAW. The wound was approximately 2 cm. in length?
Mr. SPECTER. Yes; would that correspond with the wound which you
observed?
Dr. SHAW. Yes; I saw it at the time that he was closing it and that would
correspond with the wound I observed.
Mr. SPECTER. He has described that as what he concluded to be the wound
of entry on the dorsal aspect of the right wrist, but your thought was that
perhaps that was the wound of exit?
Dr. SHAW. Yes; in trying to reconstruct the position of Governor
Connally's body, sitting in the jump seat of the limousine, and the attitude
that he would assume in turning to the right--this motion would naturally bring
the polar surface of the right wrist in contact with the anterior portion of the
right chest.
Mr.
SPECTER. Well, is your principal reason for thinking that the wound on the
dorsal aspect is a wound of exit rather than a wound of entry because of what
you consider to be the awkward position in having the dorsal aspect of the wrist
either pointing upward or toward the chest?
Dr.
SHAW. Yes, I think I am influenced a great deal by the fact that in trying to
assume this position, I can't comfortably turn my arm into a position that would
explain the wound of the dorsal surface of the wrist as a wound of entrance,
knowing where the missile came out of the chest and assuming that one missile
caused both the chest wound and the arm wound.
Mr. SPECTER. Might not then that conclusion be affected if you discard
the assumption that one missile caused all the wounds?
Dr.
SHAW. Yes, if two missiles struck the Governor, then it would not be necessary
to assume that the larger wound is the wound of entrance.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, would not another explanation for the presence of a
wound on the dorsal aspect of the wrist be if the Governor were sitting in an
upright position on the jump seat with his arm resting either on an arm rest
inside the ear or on a window of the ear with the elbow protruding outward, and
as he turned around, turning in a rotary motion, his wrist somewhat toward his
body so that it was present in an angle of approximately 45 degrees to his body,
being slightly moving toward his body.
Dr. SHAW. Well, I myself, am not able to get my arm into that position.
If the wound, as I assume to be in the midportion of the forearm here and the
wound of exit would be here (illustrating) I can't get my arm into that position
as to correspond to what we know about the trajectory of the bullet into the
chest.
Mr. SPECTER. Assuming that the bullet through the chest then also went
through
the wrist?
Dr. SHAW. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, aside from the trajectory and the explanation of one
bullet causing all the damage and focusing just on the nature of the wound on
the wrist, what conclusion would you reach as to which was the point of entrance
and which was the point of exit?
Dr. SHAW. I would feel that the wound on the polar surface of the wrist
was the wound of entrance and that perhaps the bullet being partially spent by
its passage through the chest wall, struck the radius, fragmenting it, but
didn't pass through the wrist, and perhaps tumbled out into the clothing of
Governor Connally with only a small fragment of this bullet passing on through
the wrist to go out into the left thigh.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, would that be consistent with a fragment passing
through the wrist which was so small that virtually the entire missile, or 158
grains of it, would remain in the central missile?
Dr. SHAW. Yes. The wound on
the volar surface, I'm sorry, on the dorsum of the wrist and the wound in the
thigh which was obviously a wound of entrance, since the fragment is still
within the thigh, were not too dissimilar in size.
Mr. SPECTER. Was the wound in the thigh itself, that is, aside from the
size
90
Page
91
of
the fragment which remains in the leg, as small as the hole on the dorsal aspect
of the wrist?
Dr. SHAW. My memory is that the wound in the thigh through the skin was
about the same as the wound on the skin of the dorsum of the wrist, but I didn't
make an accurate observation at the time.
Mr.
SPECTER. Would your thinking on that be affected any if I informed you that Dr.
Shires was of the view and bad the recollection that the wound on the thigh was
much larger than a hole accounted for by the size of fragments which remained in
the femur.
Dr. SHAW. Of course, Dr. Shires actually treated and closed this wound,
but since this wound was made through the skin in a tangential manner--
Mr. SPECTER. Now, you are referring to the wound of the thigh?
Dr. SHAW. I am referring to the wound of the thigh--was made in a
tangential manner, it did not go in at a direct right angle, the slit in the
skin in the thigh could be considerably longer than the actual size of the
missile itself, because this is a sharp fragment that would make a cutting--it
would cause a laceration rather than a puncture wound.
Mr. SPECTER. So, the hole in the thigh would be consistent with a very
small fragment in the femur?
Dr. SHAW. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, a moment ago I asked you what would be your opinion as
to the point of entry and the point of exit based solely on the appearances of
the holes on the dorsal and volar aspects of the wrist, and you responded that
you still thought, or that you did think that the volar aspect was the point of
entry with the additional thought that the missile might not have gone through
the wrist, but only a fraction having gone through the wrist--now, my question
is in giving that answer, did you consider at that time the hypothesis that the
wound on the wrist was caused by the same missile which went through the
Governor's chest, or was that answer solely in response to the characteristics
of the wound on the wrist alone?
Dr. SHAW. I have always felt that the wounds of Governor Connally could
be explained by the passage of one missile through his chest, striking his wrist
and a fragment of it going on into his left thigh.
I had never entertained the idea that he had been struck by a second
missile.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, focusing for just a minute on the limited 'question of
the physical characteristics of the wounds on the wrist, .if you had that and
nothing more in this case to go on, what would your opinion be as to which point
was entry and which point was exit?
Dr. SHAW. Ordinarily, we usually find the wound of entrance is smaller
than the wound of exit. In the
Governor's wound on the wrist, however, if the wound on the dorsum of the wrist
is the wound of entrance, and this large missile passed directly through his
radius, I'm not clear as to why there was not a larger wound of exit than there
was.
Mr. SPECTER You mean on the volar aspect?
Dr. SHAW. Yes; if a whole bullet hit here
Mr. SPECTER. Indicating the dorsal aspect?
Dr. SHAW. Yes; and came out through here, why it didn't carry more bone
out through the wrist than it did, and the bone was left in the wrist--the bone
did not come out. In other words,
when it struck the fifth rib it made a hole this big around (indicating) in the
chest in carrying bone fragments out through the chest wall.
Mr.
SPECTER. Wouldn't that same question arise if it went through the volar aspect
and exited through the dorsal aspect?
Dr.
SHAW. It wouldn't if you postulated that the bullet did not pass through the
wrist, but struck the wrist.
Mr.
SPECTER. That would be present in either event, though, if you postulated if the
bullet struck the dorsal aspect of the wrist, and did not pass through, but only
a missile passed through the volar aspect.
Dr. SHAW. Yes; in that case,
however, considering the wound of exit from the chest, and if that same bullet
went on through the wrist, I would still expect a pretty good wound of entrance.
Mr. SPECTER. You see, I am trying now, Dr. Shaw, to disassociate the
thought
91
Page
92
that
this is the same missile, so that I'm trying to look at it just from the
physical characteristics of the appearance of the wounds on the two sides of the
wrist.
Dr. SHAW. May we go off the record just a minute?
Mr. SPECTER. Sure off the
record.
(Discussion between Counsel Specter and the witness, Dr. Shaw, off the
record.)
Mr.
SPECTER. Let us go back on the record and let the record reflect that we have
been discussing another aspect concerning Dr. Shaw's thought that if the main
missile had gone through the entire radius, that there would have been more
damage, presumably, to the arteries and tendons on the underside of the wrist,
and I then called Dr. Shaw's attention to one additional factor in Dr. Gregory's
testimony which is reflected in his report that "on the radial' side of the
arm, small fine bits of cloth consistent with fine bits of mohair were
found," which was one of the reasons for Dr. Gregory's thinking that the
path was from the dorsal
aspect
to the volar aspect.
Dr. SHAW. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And Dr. Shaw's reply, if this is correct, Doctor, that you
would know of no readily available explanation for that factor in the situation?
Dr. SHAW. Except that it might have been carried by the small fragment
which obviously passed through the wrist and attached to that.
Mr. SPECTER. But could the fragment have carried it from the radial side
on it if it had been traveling from the volar side to the radial side ?
Dr.
SHAW. Yes; it could have carried it through. and deposited it on the way
through.
Mr. SPECTER. I see, so it might have started. on the volar aspect and
could have gone on through.
Dr. SHAW. You know, if we could get that suit of his, it would help a
lot.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, we are going to examine clothing if at all possible.
Dr. SHAW. Because, I think it would have been almost impossible
I think if you examine the clothing and if you had a hole here in his
coat and no hole on this side----
Mr. SPECTER. Indicating a hole on the femur side----
Dr. SHAW. That would almost clear that thing up.
Mr. SPECTER. Yes; it would be very informational in our analysis of the
situation.
Dr. SHAW. I doubt if there is a hole in both sides of the sleeve---the
sleeve wouldn't be quite that long, I don't think.
Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw, my next question involves whether you have ever
had a conversation with Governor Connally about the sequence of events of the
day he was shot?
Dr.
SHAW. Yes, we have talked on more than one occasion about this.
The Governor admits that certain aspects of the whole incident are a bit
hazy. He remembers hearing a shot. He
recognized it as a rifle shot and turned to the right to see whether President
Kennedy had been injured. He
recognized that the President had been injured, but almost immediately, he
stated, that he felt a severe shock to his right chest.
He immediately experienced some difficulty in breathing, and as he stated
to me, he thought that he had received a mortal wound.
Mr. SPECTER. Did he tell you why he thought the wound was mortal?
Dr. SHAW. He just knew that he was badly hit, as he expressed it.
Mr. SPECTER. Did he comment on whether or not he heard a second shot
before he felt this wound in his chest?
Dr. SHAW. He says that he did not hear a second shot, but did hear---no,
wait a minute, I shouldn't say that. He
heard only two shots so that he doesn't know which shot other than the first one
he did not hear. He only remembers hearing two shots, his wife says distinctly
she heard three.
Mr. SPECTER. Mrs. Connally said she heard three?
Dr. SHAW. Mrs. Connally distinctly remembered three shots.
Mr. SPECTER. And, Governor Connally said he heard two shots?
Dr. SHAW. Two shots.
Mr. SPECTER. Would that not be consistent with a situation where he was
hit by the second shot and lost consciousness?
92
Page
93
Dr. SHAW. Yes; the shock of the wounding might have prevented him from
hearing the rifle report.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you have expected him to hear a third shot after he
was wounded by a second shot?
Dr. SHAW. He didn't lose consciousness at that time, although he said he
did lose consciousness during a part of the trip from the point of wounding to
the hospital.
Mr.
SPECTER. Did Governor Connally tell you whether or not he heard President
Kennedy say anything?
Dr. SHAW. He said that all he heard was the President say,
"Oh," that's the only thing he told me.
Mr. SPECTER. Did Mrs. Connally state whether or not she heard the
President say anything?
Dr. SHAW. My memory isn't good for that. I don't remember what Mrs.
Connally told me on that.
Mr. SPECTER. Are you continuing to treat Governor Connally at the present
time?
Dr. SHAW. Yes, although the treatment of the chest is practically at an
end, because the chest has reached a satisfactory state of healing.
Mr.
SPECTER. Did you continue to treat the Governor all during his stay at
Dr. SHAW. Yes, I attended him several times daily.
Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw, would you think it consistent with the facts that
you know as to Governor Connally's wounds that he could have been struck by the
same bullet which passed through President Kennedy, assuming that a missile with
the muzzle velocity of 2,000 feet per second, a 6.5-millimeter bullet, passed
through President Kennedy at a distance of 160 to 250 feet from the rifle,
passing through President Kennedy's body, entering on his back and striking only
soft tissue and exiting on his neck; could that missile have also gone through
Governor Connally's chest in your opinion ?
Dr. SHAW. Yes, taking your description of the first wound sustained by
the President, which I, myself, did not observe, and considering the position of
the two men in the limousine, I think it would be perfectly possible for the
first bullet to have passed through the soft tissues of the neck of President
Kennedy and produced the wounds that we found on Governor Connally.
Mr. SPECTER. Could that bullet then have produced all the wounds that you
found on Governor Connally ?
Dr.
SHAW. Yes, I would still be postulating that Governor Connally was struck by one
missile.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, as you sit
here at the moment on your postulation that Governor Connally was struck by one
missile, is that in a way which is depicted by diagram No. 5 on the exhibit
heretofore marked as "Dr. Gregory's Exhibit No. 1?"
Dr. SHAW. Yes; I feel that the line of trajectory as marked on this
diagram is accurate as it could be placed from my memory of this wound.
Mr. SPECTER. And, on that trajectory;, how do you postulate the bullet
then passed through the wrist from dorsal to volar or from volar to dorsal?
Dr. SHAW. My postulation would be from volar to dorsal.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, then, going back to diagram No. 1, Dr. Shaw, there is
one factor that we did not call your attention to or have you testify about, and
that is--the marking that the exit is on the volar side and the entry is on the
dorsal side as it was remarked by Dr. Gregory, that would then be inconsistent
of your view of the situation, would it not?
Dr. SHAW. Yes, it would be.
Mr. SPECTER. And similarly on
diagram No. 3, where the exit is marked on the volar, and the entry is marked on
the dorsal, that would also be inconsistent with your view of the situation ?
Dr.
SHAW. Yes---he has the wound on the back being quite a bit larger than the wound
on the front here, doesn't he?
Mr. SPECTER. Yes, the wound as it appears here on the diagram is larger.
Dr. SHAW. That wasn't my memory.
93
Page
94
Mr. SPECTER. But I don't think that that is necessarily as to scale in
this situation. Would it be possible from your knowledge of the facts here, Dr.
Shaw, that President Kennedy might have been struck by the bullet passing
through him, hitting nothing but soft tissues, and that bullet could have passed
through Governor Connally's chest and a second bullet might have struck Governor
Connally's wrist?
Dr. SHAW. Yes; this is a perfectly tenable theory.
Mr. SPECTER. And, then, the damage to Governor Connally's thigh might
have come from either of the bullets which passed through the chest or a second
bullet which struck the wrist?
Dr. SHAW. That is true as far as the wounds are concerned, this theory, I
feel, is tenable. It doesn't conform to the description of the sequence of the
events as described by Mrs. Connally.
Mr. SPECTER. In what respect Dr. Shaw?
Dr. SHAW. Well she feels that the Governor was only struck by one bullet.
Mr. SPECTER. Why does she feel that way; do you know, sir?
Dr. SHAW. As soon as he was struck she pushed him to the bottom of the
car and got on top of him and it would mean that there would be a period well if
there were 5 1/2 seconds between the three shots, there would be a couple
seconds there that would have given her time to get him down into the car, and
as she describes the sequence, it is hard to see how he could have been struck
by a second bullet.
Mr. SPECTER. If she pushed him down immediately after he was shot on the
first occasion?
Dr. SHAW. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. But if her reaction was not that fast so that he was struck
twice, of course then there would be a different situation, depending entirely
on how fast she reacted.
Dr. SHAW. I think if he had been struck first in the wrist and not struck
in the chest, he would have known that. He only remembers the hard blow to the
back of his chest and doesn't remember being struck in the wrist at all.
Mr.
SPECTER. Might he not have been struck in the chest first and struck by a
subsequent shot in the wrist?
Dr.
SHAW. Yes; but that's hard to postulate if he was down in the bottom of the car.
Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw, have you been interviewed by any representatives
of
the
Federal Government prior to today?
Dr. SHAW. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And who talked to you about this case?
Dr. SHAW. I don't have his name. I perhaps could find it. It was a member
of the Secret Service.
Mr.
SPECTER. On how many occasions were you talked to by a Secret Service man?
Dr. SHAW. Once.
Mr. SPECTER. And what did you tell him?
Dr. SHAW. I told him approximately the same that has been told in this
transcript.
Mr. SPECTER. And prior to the time we started to go on the record with
the court reporter taking this down verbatim, did you and I have a discussion
bout the purpose of the deposition and the questions that I would ask you?
Dr. SHAW. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And were the answers which you provided me at that time the
same as those which you have testified to on the record here this afternoon?
Dr. SHAW. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any other written record of the operation on
Governor Connally other than that which has been identified here in Commission
Exhibit No. 392?
Dr.
SHAW. No; this is a copy of the operative record that went on to the chart of
Governor Connally which is in the possession of the record room of
Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything else which you could tell us which you
think might be helpful to the Commission in any way, Dr. Shaw?
94
Page
95
Dr. SHAW. No; I believe that we have covered all of the points that are
germane to this incident. Anything else that I would have would actually be
hearsay.
Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much, sir, for appearing.
Dr. SHAW. All right, you are welcome.
Mr. SPECTER. Off the record.
(Discussion between Counsel Specter and the witness, Dr. Shaw, off the
record.)
Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw, permit me to ask you one or two more questions.
Did you find any bullets in Governor Connally's body?
Dr. SHAW. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you find any fragments of bullets in his chest?
Dr. SHAW. No; only fragments of shattered rib.
Mr. SPECTER. And did you find, or do you know whether any fragment was
found in his wrist or the quantity of fragments in his wrist?
Dr. SHAW. It is my understanding that only foreign material from the suit
of Governor Connally was found in the wrist, although in the X-ray of the wrist
there appeared to be some minute metallic fragments in the wrist.
Mr.
SPECTER. As to the wound on the back of Governor Connally, was there any
indication that the bullet was tumbling prior to the time it struck him?
Dr.
SHAW. I would only have to say that I'm not a ballistics expert, but the wound
on his chest was not a single puncture wound, it was long enough so that there
might have been some tumbling.
Mr. SPECTER. You mean the wound on his back?
Dr. SHAW. The wound on his back--yes, it was long enough so that there
might have been some tumbling. In other words, it was not a spherical puncture
wound.
Mr. SPECTER. So it might have had some tumbling involved, or it might not
have?
Dr. SHAW. Yes; I don't know whether the clothes would have occasioned
this or not.
Mr. SPECTER. My question would be that perhaps some tumbling might have
been involved as a result of decrease in velocity as the bullet passed through
President Kennedy, whether there was any indication from the surface of the
wound which would indicate tumbling.
Dr. SHAW. The wound entrance was an elliptical wound.
In other words, it had a long diameter and a short diameter. It didn't
have the appearance of a wound caused by a high velocity bullet that had not
struck anything else; in other words, a puncture wound. Now, you have to also
take into consideration, however, whether the bullet enters at a right angle or
at a tangent. If it enters at a
tangent there will be some length to the wound of entrance.
Mr. SPECTER. So, would you say in net that there could have been some
tumbling occasioned by having it pass through another body or perhaps the
oblique character of entry might have been occasioned by the angle of entry.
Dr. SHAW. Yes; either would have explained a wound of entry.
Mr. SPECTER. Fine, thank you very much, Doctor.
Dr. SHAW. Thank you.
Dr.
Charles Francis Gregory
Page
95
TESTIMONY
OF DR. CHARLES FRANCIS GREGORY
Contact Information tomnln@cox.net
Page Visited
Times