The testimony of Curtis LaVerne Crafard was taken at 9:05 a.m, on April 8, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Messrs. Burt W. Griffin and Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Curtis LaVerne Crafard.
Mr. Crafard, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy, and I have been authorized by the Commission in accordance with law and regulations to take a sworn deposition from you.
The general nature of the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.
In particular as to you, Mr. Crafard, the nature of the inquiry is to determine what facts you know about the general inquiry, the death of Oswald and what you know about Jack Ruby.
Now, you have appeared here today by virtue of a subpena dated April 3, 1964, and issued by the Commission to you to appear here in this building, room 400, Veterans of Foreign Wars Building, 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, to be deposed.
When was this subpena served upon you?
Mr. CRAFARD. Last Saturday.
Mr. HUBERT. I think that would have been the 4th.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. The 4th of April. Would you rise and be sworn, please?
Raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. CRAFARD. I do.

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Mr. HUBERT. Will you state your full name for the record, please?
Mr. CRAFARD. Curtis LaVerne Crafard.
Mr. HUBERT. Where do you live, Mr. Crafard?
Mr. CRAFARD. 1219 Birch Street, Dallas, Oreg.
Mr. HUBERT. How old are you?
Mr. CRAFARD 23.
Mr. HUBERT. When precisely were you born?
Mr. CRAFARD. March 10, 1941.
Mr. HUBERT. What is your present occupation?
Mr. CRAFARD. At the present time I am unemployed.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, the subpena that you were served with calls for you to bring any documents that you may have concerning the matter under inquiry, and I would like you now to make a return, as it is called, as to the documents you do have so suppose you present those that you brought with you in response to the subpena.
Mr. CRAFARD. All I had was the subpena from the Jack Ruby murder trial. Some news clippings from the Ruby trial, and then more or less a diary I have been keeping for a little while of my own movements.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, Mr. Crafard, concerning the diary about your movements, do you have any objection if we have photostatic copies made of the pages on which you have made entries?
Mr. CRAFARD. No objection whatsoever.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you wish to retain the original of this yourself?
Mr. CRAFARD. Unless it is of some use to you.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, it may be, but on the other hand, I don't want to take it away from you unless you feel that you don't want to keep it or have no use for it yourself.
Mr. CRAFARD. Well, I would like to have the book because it comes in handy for a lot of things.
Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Crafard, who were your parents?
Mr. CRAFARD. Mr. Hugh Crafard, Mrs. Alice Irene Crafard.
Mr. HUBERT. Are they still living?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Are they living together?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Where do they live?
Mr. CRAFARD. At 1219 Birch Street, Dallas, Oreg.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you any brothers or sisters?
Mr. CRAFARD. I have one brother living. He is in the Army stationed in Los Angeles, Calif.
Mr. HUBERT. What is his name?
Mr. CRAFARD. Edward D. Crafard.
Mr. HUBERT. Is he married?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Does he have children?
Mr. CRAFARD. Two.
Mr. HUBERT. You don't have any other address for him than that which you have given us?
Mr. CRAFARD. I can't give you the address. All I know he is stationed there in the Army.
Mr. HUBERT. You don't know what organization in the Army?
Mr. CRAFARD. The Missile Corps, antiaircraft. I have three sisters.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, will you state their names, please, and whether they are married?
Mr. CRAFARD. Corabelle Crafard, she is married.
Mr. HUBERT. To whom?
Mr. CRAFARD. [Deleted].
Mr. HUBERT. Where does she live?
Mr. CRAFARD. She is residing in Clare, Mich.
Mr. HUBERT. Are they living together?
Mr. CRAFARD. He is in the "pen" right now.

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Mr. HUBERT. Penitentiary?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Which one?
Mr. CRAFARD. New Ionia State Penitentiary.
Mr HUBERT. What State is that in?
Mr. CRAFARD. Michigan.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what offense he has been convicted of?
Mr. CRAFARD. As far as I know, B and E, breaking and entering at night.
Mr. HUBERT. How long has he been in the penitentiary?
Mr. CRAFARD. About 7 months, I believe, now.
Mr. HUBERT. What term is he serving?
Mr. CRAFARD. Two-and-a-half to fifteen.
Mr. HUBERT. All right. Go on to the next sister.
Mr. CRAFARD. Norma Lee Crafard.
Mr. HUBERT. Who is she married to?
Mr. CRAFARD. Owen Neal.
Mr. HUBERT. N-e-a-I?
Mr. CRAFARD. N-e-a-1.
Mr. HUBERT. Where do they live?
Mr. CRAFARD. Dallas, Oreg.
Mr. HUBERT. Do they live together?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Do they have children?
Mr. CRAFARD. They have two children.
Mr. HUBERT. All right. What is----
Mr. CRAFARD. Alice LaLaine Crafard.
Mr. HUBERT. What is her husband's name?
Mr. CRAFARD. She is not married. She lives with my parents.
Mr. HUBERT. How old is she?
Mr. CRAFARD. She is 17.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you had any brothers or sisters who have died?
Mr. CRAFARD. I have one brother that died.
Mr. HUBERT. What was his name?
Mr. CRAFARD. Gary Harold Crafard.
Mr. HUBERT. How old was he when he died?
Mr. CRAFARD. Nine years old.
Mr. HUBERT. When did he die?
Mr. CRAFARD. 1954, I believe it was.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, you have told us where and when you were born. Now, I ask you where you were born?
Mr. CRAFARD. Farwell, Mich.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you live there after your birth?
Mr. CRAFARD. I am not sure of the length of time we lived right there. We lived around Farwell for 4 years, right around there.
Mr. HUBERT. After those 4 years where did you go?
Mr. CRAFARD. Went to California.
Mr. HUBERT. What part?
Mr. CRAFARD. San Joaquin Valley.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you stay there?
Mr. CRAFARD. Approximately 6 years.
Mr. HUBERT. That is until you were about 10 years old?
Mr. CRAFARD. Ten years old.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you go to school there?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. How much schooling did you finish there?
Mr. CRAFARD. First four grades.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the particular place in San Joaquin Valley that you lived?
Mr. CRAFARD. Well, I went to school at Woody, Calif., and Fairfax, Calif.
Mr. HUBERT. All right. After leaving those places, and particularly the San Joaquin Valley, where did you and your parents move to?
Mr. CRAFARD. We moved back to Michigan.

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Mr. HUBERT. What place, in Michigan?
Mr. CRAFARD. Clare.
Mr. HUBERT. C-l-a-i-r-e?
Mr. CRAFARD. C-l-a-r-e.
Mr. HUBERT. That is when you were 10 years old?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember it?
Mr. CRAFARD. I can remember going back; yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you live there?
Mr. CRAFARD. We lived in the vicinity of Clare then for about 4 years.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you go to school there?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; until I graduated from eighth grade.
Mr. HUBERT. Then what happened?
Mr. CRAFARD. We moved to Port Huron, Mich.
Mr. HUBERT. H-u-r-o-n, Mich.?
Mr. CRAFARD. I attended school at Yale, Mich., Yale High School for 2 years, and then we moved back to California to the San Joaquin Valley again.
Mr. HUBERT. Same place as before?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; we moved to a little place called Plainview where I attended school for a year, Strutmore High School and from there we went to Oregon. I dropped out of school and enlisted in the U.S. Army, September 18, 1958.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, do I understand you to say then that you had 3 years of high school education?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Was that--were those satisfactory years?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. I mean you have credit for those?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You lack 1 year to graduate?
Mr. CRAFARD. I lack about 6 months of finishing high school.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you enlist?
Mr. CRAFARD. I enlisted in Salem, Oreg.
Mr. HUBERT. And what assignments were you given?
Mr. CRAFARD. I enlisted in the antiaircraft.
Mr. HUBERT. That is U.S. Army?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you get basic training?
Mr. CRAFARD. Fort Ord.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you stay there?
Mr. CRAFARD. I was in Fort Ord for 2 months and then I went to Presidio, San Francisco, where I was stationed at an air defense school for a period of 2 months and then I was assigned to D Battery, 2d Missile Battalion, San Francisco Defense Organization.
From there I went to Germany in April of 1959. I was transferred to Germany to Deisley Kersne, and I was stationed with the D Battery, 2d Missile Battalion there. I stayed there until November of 1959 then I was transferred back to the United States where I was discharged November 10, 1959.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you serve altogether?
Mr. CRAFARD. Thirteen months.
Mr. HUBERT. Is that the usual tour?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir. The usual tour is 3 to 4 years.
Mr. HUBERT. Well now, what caused you to get out sooner?
Mr. CRAFARD. As far as I understand it is the next thing to a medical discharge.
Mr. HUBERT. What was it based upon, do you know?
Mr. CRAFARD. General, under honorable conditions.
Mr. HUBERT. You have a discharge reading general, under honorable conditions and you are now taking from your pocket a document which is a photostatic copy, I take it?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; DD214.
Mr. HUBERT. Of Defense Department Form 14.

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Mr. CRAFARD. 214.
Mr. HUBERT. 214. May I have a look at it?
Do you have any objection, Mr. Crafard if we have a photostatic copy of this document that you have just shown me?
Mr. CRAFARD. No objection.
Mr. HUBERT. So that it can be part of the record and we will give you back the original.
Mr. CRAFARD. No objection.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, what was the place of your discharge from the Army in the United States?
Mr. CRAFARD. Fort Sheridan, Ill.
Mr. HUBERT. When you were discharged, where did you go?
Mr. CRAFARD. I went to Kalkaska, Mich., where I resided with my brother-in-law and my sister.
Mr. HUBERT. Which one was that?
Mr. CRAFARD. At the present time it is Mrs. Ingersol. At that time it was Mrs. Richard Clair Tenniswood.
Mr. HUBERT. She had been married twice then?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, then we had better get that information about her. Who was her first husband?
Mr. CRAFARD. Richard Clair Tenniswood. She had two children, two girls by him.
Mr. HUBERT. How was that marriage disolved?
Mr. CRAFARD. By divorce.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know the grounds?
Mr. CRAFARD. I am not sure of the grounds sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did she divorce him or did he divorce her?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe she divorced him. I am not positive about that.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know him?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir; I knew him very well.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know where he is?
Mr. CRAFARD. He lives at Port Huron, Mich., just out of Port Huron, Mich.
Mr. HUBERT. What business is he in?
Mr. CRAFARD. Farmer.
Mr. HUBERT. Has he remarried?
Mr. CRAFARD. He plans to remarry this summer.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you seen him recently?
Mr. CRAFARD. Last time I saw him was about 2 months ago. A little over that.
Mr. HUBERT. About how long did you stay there?
Mr. CRAFARD. I stayed there for about, let's see, I stayed there until the following spring, in April.
Mr. HUBERT. That would have been April of 1960?
Mr. CRAFARD. April of 1960. Then I went back out home to Oregon.
Mr. HUBERT. When you left the U.S. Army, did you have any money?
Mr. CRAFARD. How is that?
Mr. HUBERT. When you left the U.S. Army did you have any money?
Mr. CRAFARD. Just what I got from my discharge pay.
Mr. HUBERT. How much was that?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe I had right around $400 all together.
Mr. HUBERT. Is that all you had?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is all I had; yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. I mean is that all the property you had of any sort whatsoever?
Mr. CRAFARD. I had a few items of personal clothing.
Mr. HUBERT. I mean you had no items such as rings or jewelry or things of that kind?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I never wear jewelry, rings.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have an automobile?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; not at that time.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn't own any real estate, I take it?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.

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Mr. HUBERT. You didn't have any cash but what you said?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. Would it be correct to estimate that your total worth other than the cash you just mentioned at that time was less han a hundred dollars?
Mr. CRAFARD. I would say so; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, how long did you stay with your sister?
Mr. CRAFARD. I stayed with them for about 6 or 7 months.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you work?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Where?
Mr. CRAFARD. In the pulpwoods.
Mr. HUBERT. What does that mean?
Mr. CRAFARD. We were cutting pulpwood.
Mr. HUBERT. What did that pay?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was piece work. We was making about $8 a cord.
Mr. HUBERT. About how much would that amount to a month?
Mr. CRAFARD. Oh, man.
Mr. HUBERT. Just an estimate?
Mr. CRAFARD. Probably right around $400.
Mr. HUBERT. That would be net before taxes, wouldn't it?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you assist your sister financially for board and so forth?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir; we was working together, my brother-in-law and I.
Mr. HUBERT. What I mean was were you able to save any money?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I didn't save any money there.
Mr. HUBERT. You did not. You stayed there about 7 months?
Mr. CRAFARD. About 7 months.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you go then?
Mr. CRAFARD. Then I went back out home.
Mr. HUBERT. That is to say where?
Mr. CRAFARD. To Dallas, Oreg.
Mr. HUBERT. At the time you made the move then from the home of your sister to Dallas, Oreg., how much money did you have then?
Mr. CRAFARD. About $150, enough to go out there.
Mr. HUBERT. Is it fair to state that you had spent all the money you had earned by working plus a good part of the savings or the money you had received from the Army?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. So that upon arrival at your parent's home in Dallas, Oreg., you had approximately $150.
Mr. CRAFARD. I was almost broke when I arrived home.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any other type of property?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you fix the time of your arrival back in Dallas, Oreg.?
Mr. CRAFARD. It would have been in March of 1960.
Mr. HUBERT. All right. How long did you stay there?
Mr. CRAFARD. My main residence then up until this last fall has been Dallas, Oreg. I have done a lot of traveling around.
Mr. HUBERT. What did you do to support yourself from the time you returned to your parents in March 1960?
Mr. CRAFARD. I went to work in the fruit----
Mr. HUBERT. In the fruit what?
Mr. CRAFARD. In the fruit, picking fruit. Then I went to work in a cannery. Then I was gone for a while and I worked with the carnivals when I was gone.
Mr. HUBERT. I think we had better get some details about that. How long did you work with the fruit industry?
Mr. CRAFARD. Probably right around a month.
Mr. HUBERT. That would have been in the spring of 1960?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Then you went to the cannery?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you work there?

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Mr. CRAFARD. I worked there for about 6 months.
Mr. HUBERT. What did you make there?
Mr. CRAFARD. I was making a $1.15 an hour.
Mr. HUBERT. What did it net you before taxes by the month about?
Mr. CRAFARD. I would say probably right around $400 for the month.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you leave your parent's home?
Mr. CRAFARD. I couldn't give you an exact date on this, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, would it be fair to say it was about 7 months after you arrived there from Michigan?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was in the spring of 1961. I believe, probably in April of 1961.
Mr. HUBERT. So that in fact you were with your parents after you moved from Michigan to Dallas, Oreg., for approximately 1 year?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Of which time you say you worked about 7 months?
Mr. CRAFARD. I went to school for about 6 months out of it, about 5 or 6 months out of the year, I attended high school.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you finish?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. What high school was that?
Mr. CRAFARD. Dallas High.
Mr. HUBERT. Oregon?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. You were not earning anything then?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. I take it that you left Dallas, Oreg., about April in 1961, is that correct?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you go next?
Mr. CRAFARD. I went to California where I joined the carnival.
Mr. HUBERT. What part of California?
Mr. CRAFARD. Let's see, in Oroville, Calif., where I joined the carnival.
Mr. HUBERT. Oroville?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What carnival was it?
Mr. CRAFARD. Royal West Golden Gate combined.
Mr. HUBERT. Royal West Golden Gate combined?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What type of carnival was it?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was more or less about the general run of the mill for a carnival. Mostly rides.
Mr. HUBERT. When you say "carnival" you are talking about a place where they have these rides for children and so forth?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. How big a carnival was it, I mean, how many people were involved?
Mr. CRAFARD. It is pretty hard to say exactly.
Mr. HUBERT. What did you do with it?
Mr. CRAFARD. I was working with the circus that was attached to the carnival.
Mr. HUBERT. Animal circus?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. They all traveled as a group?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. How long were you with that, in that sort of a group?
Mr. CRAFARD. I worked that for about 3 or 4 weeks.
Mr. HUBERT. That is all, 3 or 4 weeks?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, where did you go to next?
Mr. CRAFARD. I traveled through Georgia where I joined another carnival in Georgia, Jerry Lepke Ten in One.
Mr. HUBERT. What sort of a side show was it?

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Mr. CRAFARD. He had the sword box, ladder of swords, fire eater, two-headed baby show, and a snake girl show.
Mr. HUBERT. What did you do at that carnival?
Mr. CRAFARD. Roustabout and barker.
Mr. HUBERT. How long were you with them?
Mr. CRAFARD. I was with Lepke for about a week.
Mr. HUBERT. All right. After that?
Mr. CRAFARD. Then I went to Michigan.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you stay there?
Mr. CRAFARD. I visited with my sister and my brother-in-law again for a little while for about 2 weeks.
Mr. HUBERT. Which one?
Mr. CRAFARD. Tenniswood. Then I went to Detroit where I joined a kiddyland setup.
Mr. HUBERT. That is sort of a carnival strictly for children?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; parking lot carnival.
Mr. HUBERT. About what time was that then?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that was in the fall of 1961.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you stay with that organization?
Mr. CRAFARD. I was with him for about 2 weeks.
Mr. HUBERT. Then what did you do?
Mr. CRAFARD. I went back to Dallas, Oreg.
Mr. HUBERT. When you got to Dallas what did you do? Oregon, I mean.
Mr. CRAFARD. I went to work part time at the Muir and McDonald Leather Tannery and then I went to work for Boise Cascade Valzets Division for the Boise Cascade Plywood. I worked for them until in June of 1962, June 10th, 1962.
Mr. HUBERT. How long then did you work for them?
Mr. CRAFARD. For about 6 months, I believe it was.
Mr. HUBERT. What were you making there?
Mr. CRAFARD. I was making, I believe, $2.25 an hour.
Mr. HUBERT. About what did it amount to by the month before taxes?
Mr. CRAFARD. About $400, $450.
Mr. HUBERT. You were not married at this time?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you able to save money?
Mr. CRAFARD. I was spending my money just about as fast as I made it. I was traveling, paying for transportation back and forth to work, buying clothes. By that time I had bought a motorcycle or a motorbike, and I bought a few items, I bought a refrigerator for my mother or a dryer for my mother at that time.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, we have some information that you worked for Federal Aviation Agency through July and October of 1960 in Los Angeles?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; in Los Angeles--I believe they were out of Los Angeles, where I worked for them that was over in Nevada.
Mr. HUBERT. What kind of work did you do?
Mr. CRAFARD. Surveyor's assistant. I had forgotten I had worked for them.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us anything about your employment with Stewart-Hill in Berkeley, Calif., 1052 Dwight Way, Berkeley, Calif?
Mr. CRAFARD. 1 don't remember even.
Mr. HUBERT. That would have been between July and September of 1960?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't remember.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember working for the Teer Plating Co., Dallas, Tex.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us about it, please.
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe I worked for them 2 or 3 weeks, something like that.
Mr. HUBERT. How much did you make with them?
Mr. CRAFARD. I was making a dollar and a quarter an hour while I worked for them. I believe when I left there my last check was either $65 or $85.
Mr. HUBERT. Is that the first time you had ever been in Dallas, Tex.?
Mr. CRAFARD. Let's see, I believe it was, I am not certain of that.
Mr. HUBERT. That was between April and June of 1961, was it not?

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Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so. The way I have traveled around, I had a lot of jobs I even forgot about almost.
Mr. HUBERT. What was this Muir Co. you were talking about?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was a leather tannery.
Mr. HUBERT. In Dallas, Oreg.?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Muir McDonald?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. At 111 Street. Is that Dallas, Tex., or Dallas, Oreg.?
Mr. CRAFARD. Dallas, Oreg.
Mr. HUBERT. You worked for them for about almost year, with a couple of time outs, didn't you?
Mr. CRAFARD. Altogether I worked for them about 18 months. But including the time I worked part time and I worked part time for them for a while while I was working for J. C. Tracy.
Mr. HUBERT. What was J. C. Tracy?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is a cannery in Dallas, Oreg.
Mr. HUBERT. So that during one period you were working two jobs--with Muir McDonald and with J. C. Tracy?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir; I worked for Muir and McDonald an hour and a half, 2 hours, maybe 3 hours a week.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever work for Ablon Poultry Co.?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir; that was after I was married.
Mr. HUBERT. That was where?
Mr. CRAFARD. In Dallas, Tex. At that time I was residing at the Letot Trailer Park with my wife and family.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you leave Dallas, Oreg, then?
Mr. CRAFARD. When I went to work there, you mean?
Mr. HUBERT. You had gone to Dallas, Oreg., I think it was in the spring of 1961, wasn't it?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And you stayed there really about 18 months, right, working for Muir McDonald?
Mr. CRAFARD. All together.
Mr. HUBERT. When you left Dallas, Oreg., you were not married, were you?
Mr. CRAFARD. The last time I left Dallas----
Mr. HUBERT. No; I am talking about the time you left in the latter part of 1962 or early 1963.
Mr. CRAFARD. I was married June of 1962.
Mr. HUBERT. So your wife lived with you for some time in Dallas, Oreg.?
Mr. CRAFARD. For about 6 months we was living in Dallas, Oreg., from June 10 until I believe in December.
Mr. HUBERT. Where were you married?
Mr. CRAFARD. I was married in Dallas, Oreg.
Mr. HUBERT. Where was your wife from?
Mr. CRAFARD. Originally from Texas.
Mr. HUBERT. What was her name?
Mr. CRAFARD. Her maiden name was Wilma Jean Case.
Mr. HUBERT. C-a-s-e?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Had she been married before?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What was her husband's name?
Mr. CRAFARD. Donald Johnson.
Mr. HUBERT. How many times was she married before she married you?
Mr. CRAFARD. Just the one time.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you meet her?
Mr. CRAFARD. I met her in Amarillo, Tex.
Mr. HUBERT. When? How long before you married?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was in 1961.
Mr. HUBERT. What part of 1961?
Mr. CRAFARD. In the spring, I believe, it would have been in March of 1961.

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Mr. HUBERT. You knew her about 15 months then before you got married?
Mr. CRAFARD. All told; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you working in Dallas at the time you met her?
Mr. CRAFARD. I wasn't employed at the time I met my wife.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you meet her?
Mr. CRAFARD. I met her at the Salvation Army in Amarillo, Tex.
Mr. HUBERT. What was she doing?
Mr. CRAFAD. She was there with her husband Donald Johnson at that time.
Mr. HUBERT. She was living with him?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. When was she divorced from her husband?
Mr. CRAFARD. She was divorced in 1962, I believe, in April, I am not sure.
Mr. HUBERT. All the time you were living up in Oregon with your parents, did you see her or correspond with her?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I hadn't saw her for a year.
Mr. HUBERT. You had not seen her for a year when you married her?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I had--I went to Dallas, Tex., trying to find her. From Dallas, Tex., I went to Las Vegas, Nev., where I got in touch with her and where we corresponded for a period of about 5 months.
Mr. HUBERT. I gather from what you say that your interest in her as a person to be your wife grew up during this period?
Mr. CRAFARD. Mostly, yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. And she agreed to marry you and came up to Dallas, Oreg., to do so?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did she work while you were living in Dallas, Oreg.?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; she lived with my parents.
Mr. HUBERT. And so did you?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you have any children?
Mr. CRAFARD. I have one child by her. She has a stepson, I have a stepson, her son.
Mr. HUBERT. She had a son by the first marriage?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. What is that son's name?
Mr. CRAFARD. Don Johnson, Billy Don Johnson.
Mr. HUBERT. How old is he?
Mr. CRAFARD. He is 2 years old approximately.
Mr. HUBERT. He is 2 years old now?
Mr. CRAFARD. He was 2 years old in December. He will be 2 1/2.
Mr. HUBERT. And you have a child by her?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir; Robert Johnson.
Mr. HUBERT. When was that child born?
Mr. CRAFARD. He was born March 10, 1963--March 2, excuse me.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you move to Dallas, Tex.--let's take it chronologically. What happened after you left, where did you go after you left Dallas, Oreg.?
Mr. CRAFARD. I went to California, I left Dallas, Oreg., the first day of March 1963. I went to California where I spent the month, spent about 3 or 4 weeks, then I went to Dallas, Tex., where my wife was living. We had a reconciliation.
Mr. HUBERT. Before you tell us about the reconciliation, you had better tell us about the breakup because I don't think that is in the record yet.
Mr. CRAFARD. We--she had left me about 6 months after we married, and I stayed in Dallas, Oreg.
Mr. HUBERT. So she left you about December 1962?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I stayed in Dallas, Oreg, for about 6 months after that.
Mr. HUBERT. She was pregnant then, was she not?
Mr. CRAFARD. To my knowledge, as far as I know; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. The child was born in March of 1963.
Mr. CRAFARD. Well, I will tell you the truth, the doctor has some doubts himself so I couldn't say.

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Mr. HUBERT. I mean she was pregnant when she left is what I mean in December. I think we are thinking about two different things.
Mr. CRAFARD. No. I believe we are thinking about the same thing.
Mr. HUBERT. I am not asking you whether she was pregnant when you married her.
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I know that.
Mr. HUBERT. I am asking you whether she was pregnant when she left you in December of 1962, because you have just told us that the child was born in March of 1963.
Mr. CRAFARD. I will put it this way. When the doctor was informed she had a child, her doctor was then informed she had a child, he was very shocked and surprised that she had had a child, and she was his patient in May of 1962. He operated on her in May of 1962. So in other words, there is some doubt as to the fact that the child was mine and actually there is a little doubt as to the child is actually hers.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, I wish you would explain that latter part. How can there be some doubt that the child is hers?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't really understand it entirely myself. But the doctor that performed the operation when he was informed she had had the child he was very shocked and very surprised that she had had a child. He wouldn't say any reason for being so but he was. But I took him--I had understood from him that she wouldn't be able to have a child for about 2 years after the operation.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the cause of your breakup?
Mr. CRAFARD. That, I do not know.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean she just left?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did she leave any notes or anything?
Mr. CRAFARD. She didn't leave anything. I went to work on Tuesday morning and come home Tuesday and she was gone.
Mr. HUBERT. With her child?
Mr. CRAFARD. With the boy; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you attempt to find her?
Mr. CRAFARD. I put a tracer on her.
Mr. HUBERT. Well now, when you say you put a tracer, what do you mean?
Mr. CRAFARD. I had the law put a tracer out on her.
Mr. HUBERT. As a missing person?
Mr. CRAFARD. As a missing person; yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you get any reports?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I didn't.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you next see her or hear from her?
Mr. CRAFARD. I heard from her in February of 1963. The latter part.
Mr. HUBERT. In what way?
Mr. CRAFARD. She wrote to me and told me that she was going to have the baby, and then in March of 1963 I received a letter in California, my folks had sent down to me, from her saying that she had had the baby and would love for me to come see the baby if I wanted to. And I went to Dallas, Tex. And we had a reconciliation.
Mr. HUBERT. What date did you arrive in Dallas, do you know?
Mr. CRAFARD. Let's see, right around the 14th, I believe.
Mr. HUBERT. Of March?
Mr. CRAFARD. Of March.
Mr HUBERT. Did you have any money then?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Have any other kind of property?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; just a few clothes.
Mr. HUBERT. Is it fair to say you were. pretty broke?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir; I was.
Mr. HUBERT. Where was she living?
Mr CRAFARD. She was at that time staying with her mother and father in Dallas, Tex.
Mr. HUBERT. At what location?

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Mr. CRAFARD. At Letot Trailer Park.
Mr. HUBERT. How do you spell that?
Mr. CRAFARD. L-e-t-o-t.
Mr. HUBERT. Where is that located?
Mr CRAFARD. On Lombardy Lane.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you live with her then?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. What did you do, get another trailer?
Mr CRAFARD. For about a week I lived there with her and her parents. I went to work at the Ablon Poultry and her parents moved away and then for a while her brother and her sister-in-law lived with us; we lived together for a while.
Mr. HUBERT. At Letot's?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr HUBERT. What is their name?
Mr. CRAFARD. It is John Case, Mr. and Mrs. John Case.
Mr. HUBERT. Where do they live now?
Mr. CRAFARD. I have no idea of their present address.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you go to work in Dallas, Tex?
Mr. CRAFARD. About a week after I arrived there.
Mr. HUBERT. Where?
Mr. CRAFARD. At Ablon Poultry.
Mr. HUBERT. What kind of work were you doing there?
Mr. CRAFARD. I was working in the hanging racks, hanging chickens.
Mr. HUBERT How much were you making there?
Mr. CRAFARD. $1.10 an hour.
Mr. HUBERT. How much did that amount to by the month?
Mr. CRAFARD. Probably right around $200, $225, right around there; I am not sure.
Mr. HUBERT. You were still living with your wife then?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. What happened after that?
Mr. CRAFARD. I went to work at the Porter Building Co. in Dallas, Tex.
Mr. HUBERT. Where is that located?
Mr. CRAFARD. Harry Heinz Circle.
Mr. HUBERT. Is that the outfit called the Valley Office and School Equipment Co?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you work for that company?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe I did for a little while. It wasn't very long.
Mr. HUBERT. What about the Office Building Co. that you were talking about, how long did you work for them?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't remember, I don't even remember working for the company actually.
Mr. HUBERT. I am talking about the first one you mentioned yourself.
Mr. CRAFARD. The Porter Building Co?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. CRAFARD. I worked for them for about a month or a month and a half.
Mr. HUBERT. After that who did you work for?
Mr. CRAFARD. We went to Washington, the State of Washington, to Mount Angeles or Port Angeles in the State of Washington.
Mr. HUBERT. About when was that?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that was in May or--it was in June, I believe it was.
Mr. HUBERT. When you say "we" you mean you and your wife and your two children?
Mr. CRAFARD. And my two boys.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you travel?
Mr. CRAFARD. We went up by bus.
Mr. HUBERT. Had you been able to save any money then?
Mr. CRAFARD. I had money when we left there, I had been able to save some then. We stopped in California and I worked for a while 2 or 3 weeks in California.

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Mr. HUBERT. Where did you work?
Mr. CRAFARD. With a carnival. Then we went on up to Port Angeles, Wash.
Mr. HUBERT. Port Angeles?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you stay there?
Mr. CRAFARD. We was there for about 6 weeks.
Mr. HUBERT. Until what date?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't remember the date.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, it was the summer of 1963, wasn't it?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Was your wife still with you?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir; we were together at that time.
Mr. HUBERT. All right. What was your next move?
Mr. CRAFARD. The next thing happened she left me again.
Mr. HUBERT. On what date was that?
Mr. CRAFARD. I couldn't give you a date on that either.
Mr. HUBERT. Well----
Mr. CRAFARD. I can't remember the dates too well.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, it was the summer time?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir; it was in the summer. I believe it was in the latter part of August or the middle of August, I am not sure.
Mr. HUBERT. Did she leave any note this time when she left?
Mr. CRAFARD. She left a note with some friends of ours in Port Angeles, Wash.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the cause of her leaving, did she say?
Mr. CRAFARD. She didn't say.
Mr. HUBERT. Did she leave any forwarding address?
Mr. CRAFARD. She had went to my brother's in Los Angeles, Calif.
Mr. HUBERT. Which brother was that, that is the one in the Army?
Mr. CRAFARD. Crafard, yes, sir; Edward D.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did she stay with him?
Mr. CRAFARD. She was there about 2 weeks.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did she go?
Mr. CRAFARD. He brought her up to my folk's place, I went from Washington down to my folk's place.
Mr. HUBERT. That is Dallas, Oreg.?
Mr. CRAFARD. He brought her up to my folk's there, in Dallas, Oreg.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have a reconciliation again?
Mr. CRAFARD. We tried a reconciliation. It didn't work out.
Mr. HUBERT. So what happened?
Mr. CRAFARD. So subsequently, about 3 weeks later, I left home, my folk's place.
Mr. HUBERT. You left her there?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. She had already gone?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; she was still there over at my folk's place.
Mr. HUBERT. That is what I mean, you left her there?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I left her there.
Mr. HUBERT. Judging by the time schedule you had mentioned that would have been around the middle of September, is that correct?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so; I am not sure.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you go?
Mr. CRAFARD. Let's see, I went to California. I went down on the coast and I worked for a Chinese man down there raising strawberries.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you stay there?
Mr. CRAFARD. I was there for about a week. And from there I went to Long Beach, Calif. I went to work on the new Playland down on Long Beach. I was there for about a month, I believe it was. Then I went to Barstow, Calif, where I went to work for produce out there.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the name of that?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't remember the name of that outfit.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you stay there?
Mr. CRAFARD. I was with him for about 3 or 4 weeks, I believe it was.

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Mr. HUBERT. I take it that these jobs simply gave you enough money to live on and save up a little so you could move to the next place?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. All right. After that where did you go?
Mr. CRAFARD. I went to Michigan.
Mr. HUBERT. What place there?
Mr. CRAFARD. Fife Lake, Mich.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you live there?
Mr. CRAFARD. I was there overnight. My sister and brother-in-law, Ingersol lived there, and----
Mr. HUBERT. And you stayed with them?
Mr. CRAFARD. I stayed overnight there.
Mr. HUBERT. Then where did you go?
Mr. CRAFARD. Then I went to--down into the southern part of Michigan, I joined another carnival down there.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the name of the carnival.
Mr. CRAFARD. Happyland Amusements.
Mr. HUBERT. Who was the owner of it?
Mr. CRAFARD. I am just trying to think of the name. I can think of the first name but I can't think of his last name.
Mr. HUBERT. Suppose you give us that.
Mr. CRAFARD. His first name was Bob. There were two brothers owned it.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you stay with them?
Mr. CRAFARD. I was with them for about 3 weeks. We traveled from Michigan to Memphis, Tenn. We played the Memphis Fair.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you stay in Memphis?
Mr. CRAFARD. We was there for 2 weeks.
Mr. HUBERT. What was your next move?
Mr. CRAFARD. My next move was, while I was in Memphis I quit them and went to work for Leonard Wood who owned a trabant.
Mr. HUBERT. What is that?
Mr. CRAFARD. It is one of the newest owned rides out, it is a German-made ride.
Mr. HUBERT. Leonard Wood was his name?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir; that was in Memphis, Tenn.
Mr. HUBERT. And you joined him really to move, is that right?
Mr. CRAFARD. No. I made the move with a friend of mine.
Mr. HUBERT. I understood that you were working with the circus or carnival operated by a man named Bob and his brother?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And you quit them to join Leonard Wood's outfit.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; it was better pay.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you stay with Wood?
Mr. CRAFARD. I was with them for, I think it was the last 4 days of the fair, about 4 days.
Mr. HUBERT. Then you quit him?
Mr. CRAFARD. Actually I got fired from him. There was a girl there that kept hanging around the ride and we couldn't get rid of her and everybody tried to get rid of her. She thought she was in love with me or something.
Mr. HUBERT. So Leonard Wood fired you?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And what did you do next?
Mr. CRAFARD. I traveled to Dallas, Tex.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you travel?
Mr. CRAFARD. With a friend of mine, Mickey Spillane.
Mr. HUBERT. Mickey who?
Mr. CRARARD. Mickey Corday.
Mr. HUBERT. How do you spell the last name?
Mr. CRAFARD. C-o-r-d-a-y.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you travel?
Mr. CRAFARD. Traveled down in his car.
Mr. HUBERT. Where is he from, do you know?

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Mr. CRAFARD. I don't know where his home is.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know him prior to this time?
Mr. CRAFARD. I had seen him prior to this time and heard of him prior to this time.
Mr. HUBERT. I mean it wasn't a hitchhike?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I met him at the fairgrounds in Dallas, Tex., or in Memphis.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you drive straight to Dallas?
Mr. CRAFARD. We drove straight to Dallas, Tex.
Mr. HUBERT. Now when you arrived in Dallas, what did you do?
Mr. CRAFARD. I went to work with an outfit "How Hollywood Makes Movies" setup in the Dallas, Tex., State Fair.
Mr. HUBERT. Who was that?
Mr. CRAFARD. Deke Miles and Bob Craven.
Mr. HUBERT. Had you known them before?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. What date was that?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't remember the date on that. It was the first day of the fair.
Mr. HUBERT. It was the first day of what fair?
Mr. CRAFARD. The Dallas, Tex., State Fair.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This was in the fall of 1963?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. How much money did you make with them?
Mr. CRAFARD. I made $5 a day.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you live?
Mr. CRAFARD. I stayed in the tent. I was night watchman in the tent. They had a lot of props and equipment in the tent.
Mr. HUBERT. In the meantime what happened to your wife?
Mr. CRAFARD. I had no idea.
Mr. HUBERT. To this day?
Mr. CRAFARD. To this day, I found out what had happened later but right now I have no idea where she is at.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did she stay with your parents after you left?
Mr. CRAFARD. She was there with my parents for about 2 or 3 weeks and then she took a job babysitting. She stayed there for about a week and then she took sick I understand and was in the hospital for about 3 days. Was back with my parents for about a week and then they went to Dallas, Tex. She left the boys with my parents, was in Dallas, Tex., for 2 or 3 weeks, then she went back up home and picked the boys up and the last I had heard of she had went to Cuba, Mo., and left the boys with a woman there in Cuba, Mo., and was paying her to take care of the boys.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you find out all this?
Mr. CRAFARD. This woman in Missouri wrote to my mother, that is how I found out she had been there and my mother told me what had happened when she was still with them.
Mr. HUBERT. What is the last word you heard from your wife?
Mr. CRAFARD. How is that?
Mr. HUBERT. What is the last time you heard anything about her?
Mr. CRAFARD. The last time I heard anything about her, had any news or had any knowledge of her whatsoever was about, on Saturday the 7th, March 7 of this year.
Mr. HUBERT. You don't know where she is now?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Has she the children?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir; she has got the children.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you first meet Jack Ruby?
Mr. CRAFARD. I met Jack Ruby about the third day of the Dallas, Fair, at the fairgrounds.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us about how you met him.
Mr. CRAFARD. He was backing the--Mr. Craven and Mr. Miles, and he come out there to talk to them.

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Mr. HUBERT. Were you present when they spoke?
Mr. CRAFARD. I was out front when he come out there.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he seem to know them or----
Mr. CRAFARD. He knew them. They were acquainted.
Mr. HUBERT. They were acquainted?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You could tell that from the conversation?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, they just walked up to each other and shook hands and called each other by the first name.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the substance of the conversation?
Mr. CRAFARD. Mostly the conversation had to do with a twistboard exerciser that Ruby was trying to promote.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, go ahead.
Mr. CRAFARD. And he was there for about a half, 45 minutes that evening, and it was 2 or 3 days later before I saw him again.
Mr. HUBERT. Before you go on, would you tell us how long after you joined the fair did you first see this man Ruby?
Mr. CRAFARD. About 2 or 3 days, about 2 days after I joined the fair.
Mr. HUBERT. That would be about 2 days after the fair opened.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And the second time you saw him was about 3 days after that?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so, yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the occasion of seeing him the second time?
Mr. CRAFARD. He came out there to talk to Mr. Miles and Mr. Craven.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you overhear that conversation?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what was the purpose of the conversation?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe Mr. Miles--he had brought some props, a couple of prop chairs, some chairs used for props and a mirror used for a prop to be used.
Mr. HUBERT. Jack Ruby brought that out to them?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What was his interest in this fair?
Mr. CRAFARD. I had no idea.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he have any financial interest?
Mr. CRAFARD. He had some financial interest there.
Mr. HUBERT. How do you know that?
Mr. CRAFARD. Mr. Craven had told me, we had been talking and he told me that Ruby had some financial interest in it.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he indicate what it was about, how much?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, did Ruby put up money?
Mr. CRAFARD. From what I understood he had put up some money.
Mr. HUBERT. How much?
Mr. CRAFARD. I have no idea.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear Mr. Craven or Mr. Miles talk about what percentage he might have in the interests of the project?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; whenever I was around Mr. Craven and Mr. Miles I was pretty busy working most of the time.
Mr. HUBERT. And you lived in the tent all the time?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any friends in Dallas?
Mr. CRAFARD. There was a few people that I know there.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you name them?
Mr. CRAFARD. Well, at that time there was as far as I knew my brother-in-law, John Case, lived in Dallas.
Mr. HUBERT. He still did?
Mr. CRAFARD. And there was a few members of the church my wife and I went to still in Dallas there.
Mr. HUBERT. Who were they?
Mr. CRAFARD. Brother Lee Cooksey and Robert Roskydall I believe it is.
Mr. HUBERT. Who else?

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Mr. CRAFARD. And that was about the only ones I knew around there right then. I met some people during that fair.
Mr. HUBERT. As to these people you have named, how close a relationship did you develop?
Mr. CRAFARD. Just church members together.
Mr. HUBERT. What church was that?
Mr. CRAFARD. General Assembly and Church of the First Born.
Mr. HUBERT. Where is it located?
Mr. CRAFARD. Out North Dallas is all I can give you.
Mr. HUBERT. Was this State fair project called. "How Hollywood Makes Movies," a success financially?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; it was an absolute failure.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean people didn't flock to it?
Mr. CRAFARD. We went bankrupt, they went broke.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean they closed before the fair closed?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir; it was only open for about a week. I had heard rumors to the effect that Mr. Craven had wrote a lot of bad checks to start with.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you paid any salary by them?
Mr. CRAFARD. Mostly about all I got from them was expenses. It was supposed to be $5 a day but about all I got was my meals and cigarettes furnished.
Mr. HUBERT. You got money from them?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, did it actually close its doors and stop operating before the fair closed?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; about a week, it only ran about a week.
Mr. HUBERT. And the fair lasted how long?
Mr. CRAFARD. 2 weeks. When they left it was another outfit come in there with a dance band.
Mr. HUBERT. When you say, "come in there," you mean took over the space?
Mr. CRAFARD. Took over the space in the same tent.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you stay with that outfit?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I stayed with that outfit.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the name of it?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't believe they even had a real name for it.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us some of the people who were connected with it.
Mr. CRAFARD. Let's see. I can't even--there was Big Jess, he was one of the big shots around the State fair there.
Mr. HUBERT. Was he a musician?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; he owns two or three rides on the fair grounds, permanent rides on the Dallas Texas State Fair Grounds.
Mr. HUBERT. How was he connected with the organization that took the place of the other one?
Mr. CRAFARD. He took up the lease, the rent on the tent, on the space, and had this other outfit come in.
Mr. HUBERT. The other outfit I take it was a band?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; musical band.
Mr. HUBERT. How many pieces were there?
Mr. CRAFARD. Let's see, I believe it was three- and four-piece band.
Mr. HUBERT. How was it supposed to make money?
Mr. CRAFARD. Charged 50 cents to get in.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean to listen to the music?
Mr. CRAFARD. Mostly listen to the music.
Mr. HUBERT. What else?
Mr. CRAFARD. They had some couples on stage dancing.
Mr. HUBERT. They had some what?
Mr. CRAFARD. They had some couples on stage dancing.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean couples from the audience?
Mr. CRAFARD. At first and then they wouldn't allow them to have couples on the stage from the audience any more so they hired a couple of dancers.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did they hire them from?
Mr. CRAFARD. Girls around the fairgrounds.
Mr. HUBERT. Did they get any from Ruby's place?

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Mr. CRAFARD. One of the girls came out from Ruby's place.
Mr. HUBERT. What was her name?
Mr. CRAFARD. Joy Dale.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Dale?
Mr. CRAFARD. Dale. I don't know her real name. Her first name was Joyce from what I understood.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you recognize the name Joyce McDonald?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that was her last name, yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But her stage name was Joy, not Joyce?
Mr. CRAFARD. Joy Dale.
Mr. HUBERT. What kind of a dance did she do?
Mr. CRAFARD. About all she done was worked out front. She would get out front and more than anything just stand around out there. She would come out originally to help this "How Hollywood Makes Movies" setup. They used her as an attraction piece.
Mr. HUBERT. Did Ruby bring her out there then?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe the first time she came out there I believe Jack brought her out there and introduced her to Miles and Craven.
Mr. HUBERT. Did Jack have any interest in the second organization?
Mr. CRAFARD. To my knowledge, no. Except that he knew the man who was managing the setup there.
Mr. HUBERT. And you have given us his name, I think already.
Mr. CRAFARD. Dusty was the name of the guy who was managing it. He was another carnival, carnie. He was managing it, Jess was backing it but Dusty was managing it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know Dusty's last name?
Mr. CRAFARD. I can't recall it.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did he live?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't know--let's see, I think his home was somewhere in Ohio.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he stay with the organization until the end of it?
Mr. CRAFARD. He stayed with the organization until the law closed them down.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us about that.
Mr. CRAFARD. The stage dancers got, the last day they was getting, pretty wild.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean the last day of the fair?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; the last day they was open. It was 2 or 3 days before the fair closed, they were getting pretty wild.
Mr. HUBERT. What do you mean by that?
Mr. CRAFARD. With their dancing; it was getting real sexy.
Mr. HUBERT. It wasn't a striptease, was it?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; more than anything they were using the "Dirty Dog," and it can be made so filthy that it will almost turn a person's stomach if they do it right.
Mr. HUBERT. Do they actually use dogs in this dance?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; it is a dance called, "The Dog," but they have got what they call, "The Dirty Dog," too.
Mr. HUBERT. How many girls were involved in that?
Mr. CRAFARD. There were two girls and one guy.
Mr. HUBERT. One of those girls was the girl called Joy Dale?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. What was she doing at that time?
Mr. CRAFARD. As far as I know Joy was just working at the club, Carousel Club at that time.
Mr. HUBERT. She wasn't connected with the show at the fair?
Mr. CRAFARD. She hadn't been out there but about one time after the dance outfit took over.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know the names of the girls on the stage?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't remember their names.
Mr. HUBERT. Had they come from Jack Ruby?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT How do you know that?
Mr. CRAFARD. They met them on the fairgrounds. They put an ad and the girls contacted them.

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Mr. HUBERT. Did Ruby come around to that second thing?
Mr. CRAFARD. He was around a couple of times.
Mr. HUBERT. A couple of times?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he stay very long?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I could notice.
Mr. HUBERT. Who was he with?
Mr. CRAFARD. Mostly by himself when he came out there.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you get to know him?
Mr. CRAFARD. Well, just a couple of times talking to him around the fairgrounds there and he gave me a free pass into his club any time I wanted to go in.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you go in?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not until after the fair closed when I went to work for Ruby.
Mr. HUBERT. How much money did you make at the fair altogether?
Mr. CRAFARD. Altogether at the fair all I made was expenses.
Mr. HUBERT. As I understood you had very little when you got there.
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. So that when the fair closed you were just about flat broke.
Mr. CRAFARD. I was flat broke.
Mr. HUBERT. What happened after the fair closed?
Mr. CRAFARD. Ruby hired me then to tear some lumber down, a stage he had had there at the tent. He bought the lumber out of it and he had me tear that down and clean it up.
Mr. HUBERT. Of course, the thing had been closed for 2 days before the fair closed itself?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And I don't suppose it reopened in any other fashion?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did it take you to do the job that Ruby hired you for?
Mr. CRAFARD. About 4 hours all told.
Mr. HUBERT. And this stuff was moved?
Mr. CRAFARD. Moved to the Carousel Club, downstairs in the Carousel Club where it was stored.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have anything to do with the moving?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; helped move the lumber and clean it up.
Mr. HUBERT. Then your original employment by Ruby was for that job alone?
Mr. CRAFARD. When he hired me he said he had that for me that I could do and then he said I could stay, he wanted me to stay at the club that night, and the next day he talked to me and he had me stay with him.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us about your arrangement with Ruby?
Mr. CRAFARD. Mostly, there was no set salary, any time I needed salary I put a draw slip in the till and take it out of the till.
Mr. HUBERT. What were you supposed to do?
Mr. CRAFARD. Help clean the club up, work the lights on the girls on stage, answer the phone calls, answer the phone when he wasn't there. Work on the bar if they needed me or anything like that.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you did almost anything you were asked to do?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you live at that time?
Mr. CRAFARD. I stayed at the Carousel Club.
Mr. HUBERT. What accommodations did they have for sleeping and so on?
Mr. CRAFARD. We had a room with a cot in it.
Mr. HUBERT. Whose room was it?
Mr. CRAFARD. It had been at one time a dressing room for one of the stars he had in there, Jada, a stripper by the name of Jada.
Mr. HUBERT. Was she there when you first went there?
Mr. CRAFARD. When I first went there; yes. At that time I slept in Jack's office.
Mr. HUBERT. Then when you first went to the Carousel you slept in Jack's office?

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Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Was there a cot there, too?
Mr. CRAFARD. He had a couch in his office.
Mr. HUBERT. When you first went there it was the day the fair closed or the day after?
Mr. CRAFARD. The day after the fair closed.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the date of that?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don't remember the date.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you stay--strike that. How long did you sleep in Jack's office?
Mr. CRAFARD. For about a week.
Mr. HUBERT. And then you moved into Jada's room?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Or dressing room, that is after she had gone?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, after she had gone.
Mr. HUBERT. And you stayed there until you left finally?
Mr. CRAFARD. I left the 23d of November, I believe it was.
Mr. HUBERT. What were your hours there?
Mr. CRAFARD. Any hours. I would just get up, I usually got up about 8 o'clock in the morning and I would be lucky if I would get to bed before 3:30, 4 o'clock.
Mr. HUBERT. How come you would get up so early?
Mr. CRAFARD. Get the club cleaned up.
Mr. HUBERT. Wasn't there a man to help?
Mr. CRAFARD. I took care of that mostly myself.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Howard who used to do that stuff?
Mr. CRAFARD. Howard was a maintenance man.
Mr. HUBERT. What did he do?
Mr. CRAFARD. Just maintenance, upkeep of the building.
Mr. HUBERT. He didn't do the actual janitorial work?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Cleaning up the cigarettes and that sort of thing?
Mr. CRAFARD. He had a young fellow by the name of Andrew who was his assistant manager.
Mr. HUBERT. Is that Andrew Armstrong?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. When I first went there, Andrew was doing the cleaning up and then I started helping him, and then I had been there for about 2 weeks and I was doing all the cleaning up by myself.
Mr. HUBERT. The club usually closed you say about 2 or 3 in the morning?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; the club usually closed, I believe it was 1:30 or 2 o'clock in the morning the club closed.
Mr. HUBERT. You would get to bed about 2:30 or 3 o'clock?
Mr. CRAFARD. Before everybody got out of there it would be 2:30, 3 o'clock.
Mr. HUBERT. Then you went to bed?
Mr. CRAFARD. Then I went to bed.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did the cleaning up job usually take?
Mr. CRAFARD. If I started cleaning up at 9 o'clock I would be finished by 11:30.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you had 2 1/2 hours?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you then usually free?
Mr. CRAFARD. No. Jack would come in about 11:30 and be there 2 or 3 hours. After he left I had to stay there and answer the phone.
Mr. HUBERT. The club wasn't open then, was it?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, the club didn't open until 7:30 at night.
Mr. HUBERT. So your duties were to clean up as soon as you got up and that took 2 1/2 or 3 hours and then just to stay there answering phone calls?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you go to eat?
Mr. CRAFARD. Most of the time I eat at the Walgreen drugstore catercornered across the street.

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Mr. HUBERT. And you say you just took some money out of the cash register for that purpose?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did Jack permit you to do that?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, he told me; otherwise, I wouldn't have done so.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he have any limitation on how much to take?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. How much did it amount to?
Mr. CRAFARD. It usually amounted to $4, $5, maybe $6 a day, what with my cigarettes and what I ate.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any time off for yourself at all?
Mr. CRAFARD. A couple of nights after the club closed we went out to, he took us out to, the Vegas Club. We were out there until about 3 o'clock in the morning. And I had a couple of times I could, Andy was around the club and I could take off in the afternoon if Andy was around the club.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the purpose of keeping you around the club after your cleanup job was over?
Mr. CRAFARD. So far as I understand just mostly answer the phone.
Mr. HUBERT. Were there many phone calls to be answered?
Mr. CRAFARD. There was quite a few that would come in--generally, usually, people calling in, would start calling in about 1 o'clock for reservations.
Mr. HUBERT. Did Jack give you any instructions as to how you could handle the phone calls?
Mr. CRAFARD. He told me to answer the phone and ask them what they wanted, and if they had a message for Jack so they could give me a number for him to call back. If they had a reservation, how to take a reservation.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have to make notations about it?
Mr. CRAFARD Yes, I had a notebook there at the club.
Mr. HUBERT. So that when he called in you would just tell him who had called?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he sometimes give you instructions as to things you were to do?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not unless it was--a couple of times he told me to feed the dogs or something like that--when he would call in, he would ask me if I fed the dogs.
Mr. HUBERT. Where were they kept?
Mr. CRAFARD. They were kept in a room behind the kitchen area, a storeroom.
Mr. HUBERT. How many were there?
Mr. CRAFARD. When I first went there he had two dogs at the club and then his Sheba that he kept with him all the time.
Mr. HUBERT. You say when you first went he had that many dogs, did that change during the time you were there?
Mr. CRAFARD. About a week before the assassination, a man that he had given the dog to brought the dog back and Jack gave me instructions to check the freight prices to California, a friend of his out there had wanted the dog, and he was going to send it out there. So he gave me instructions to check the freight, how to ship it, and about the crate and food and everything for the dog--to ship it.
Mr. HUBERT. For a period then there were three dogs there?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Was that dog ever shipped to California?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not while I was there; no, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what the man's name was who the dog was to be shipped to in California?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I don't.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what place in California?
Mr. CRAFARD. Los Angeles, I believe it was.
Mr. HUBERT. You had to check that to get the rates?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you ever seen that man to whom it was to be shipped?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not as far as I--I am not positive I had seen him.

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Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have some idea you might have seen him?
Mr. CRAFARD. There was a couple of friends of Jack's there from California while I was there and it might have been one of them.
Mr. HUBERT. You don't know their names?
Mr. CRAFABD. No; I don't remember their names.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember when they were at Jack's place?
Mr. CRAFARD. As I say, I believe it was about the second or third week I was there with him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there--you say there were a couple of fellows?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Two or three or how many?
Mr. CRAFARD. I think they come at different times, I believe there was one guy come in one time and then about a week--3 or 4 days later another guy.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But they were both there together for a while?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don't believe so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Do you remember anything about the first man who came?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I couldn't even identify him if he was to stand in front of me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he spend a lot of time around the club?
Mr. CRAFARD. He wasn't there too much during the day.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would he come as a patron or was he working when he was there?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he came in as a guest of Jack's, a house guest.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you introduced to him, ever introduced to him?
Mr. CRAFARD. Jack introduced me to him the day he came in. I don't remember his name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever learn anything about what he did for a living?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I can recall.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The second man who came, were you introduced to him?
Mr. CRAFARD. More likely I was, but I don't recall him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall at all what he looked like, the second man?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall at all what the first man looked like?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, I don't; I saw so many people around the club.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The second man who came, how long did he stay?
Mr. CRAFARD. Saw him around, I think, two different days, two days in a row that he was in the club with Jack.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he come at night or during the day?
Mr. CRAFARD. During the day that I saw him. He might have been there at night but I didn't notice him if he was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you pick up that his business might have been there?
Mr. CRAFARD. All I figured, all I knew, was that he had come to see Jack.
Mr. HUBERT. You never heard them conversing?
Mr. CRAFARD. When Jack was talking to somebody I pretty much made it a habit to step back where I couldn't hear the conversation.
Mr. HUBERT. Why did you do that?
Mr. CRAFARD. I have done that every since I can recall. When I was younger I worked for a fellow and he started talking to somebody and I would stay right there and he got kind of angry a couple of times; so, since then, I have made it a habit to step back where I can't hear the conversation that is being held.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear from Andy Armstrong or anybody else anything about either of these two men?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I can recall.
Mr. HUBERT. What makes the visit of these two men a part of your memory now?
Mr. CRAFARD. Just that it was shortly before he had the dogs brought back to him, and he asked me to make arrangements to ship them to California. I believe they were from Los Angeles.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, the fact that you were making preparations to ship the dogs to California, and that they were from California, is the fact that causes you to associate the two, and to remember those two men?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.

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Mr. HUBERT. Is that all?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is all I can think of causing the association.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall, Larry, if at any time Jack had a photographer at the club?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; he did for publicity purposes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall where that photographer was from?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don't sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall any--how long was this photographer there?
Mr. CRAFARD. He was around there for 3 or 4 days in the evening before the show was going on. I believe he was from a magazine.
Mr. HUBERT. Was his name Eddie Rocco?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this one of the two men you have been talking about from California or were these two men different, from California?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't recall; it might have been. He might have been from California. But these two men were not photographers. They come in, it looked to me, it appeared to me to be businessmen, fellows----
Mr. HUBERT. Did they have long conversations with Ruby?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not in my presence. Not when they were around the club. They was never in the club with him more than 5 or 10 minutes when they were there.
Mr. HUBERT. What would happen, they would come in and talk to him?
Mr. CRAFARD. They would come in and he might have some phone calls to make or something and they would stay there while he made the phone calls and then they would leave.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know where they went?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Jack would go out with them?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you notice how long they stayed?
Mr. CRAFARD. I wouldn't know how long they would stay with Jack. He might take off at 11 o'clock in the morning and wouldn't be back all day.
Mr. HUBERT. What I mean is, do you have any recollection of seeing him leave with one of those men or either of them and then come back with them?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't recall him doing so. He might have.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you any recollection that having left with one of those men he came back alone and particularly at what time or how much longer did he come back alone, how much later did he come back alone?
Mr. CRAFARD. I have no recollection of that either. He was--people would come to the club to see him, he would go downstairs, leave with them, and sometimes he would be gone the rest of the afternoon or sometimes he would come back.
Mr. HUBERT. What we would like you to tell us is, what there was about these two men from California that makes their visits there still a part of your memory.
Mr. CRAFARD. Just the fact that shipping the dogs to California, I kind of more or less associated the fact and that they were from Los Angeles.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever gather where they were staying while they were in Dallas?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't know.
Mr. HUBERT. Who usually woke you up in the morning over there?
Mr. CRAFARD. Jack would usually call me in the morning.
Mr. HUBERT. About what time?
Mr. CRAFARD. Anywhere from 8 o'clock on.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any other way of waking up?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not unless Andrew would come by.
Mr. HUBERT. Was there an arrangement that one of them would wake you so you might commence your work?
Mr. CRAFARD. Jack would usually call me in the morning as soon as he got up.
Mr. HUBERT. Did Armstrong call you sometimes?
Mr. CRAFARD. A couple of times Andy would call me.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Ralph Paul?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

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Mr. HUBERT. How did you come to know him?
Mr. CRAFARD. Jack introduced me to him at the club.
Mr. HUBERT. Was he there often?
Mr. CRAFARD. He was there about six or seven times that I can recall. I believe he was a business associate of Jack's.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you find that out?
Mr. CRAFARD. He had a drive-in setup, drive-in cafe.
Mr. HUBERT. Where?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was out northeastern Texas, somewhere, Dallas, northeastern part of Dallas.
Mr. HUBERT. And you say Jack told you he had an interest in it?
Mr. CRAFARD. Jack said they were associated. He called him his partner all the time.
Mr. HUBERT. Did the man come on particular days of the week or just at random?
Mr. CRAFARD. No. Never knew when he was going to come.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see Jack give him any money?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I recall.
Mr. HUBERT. Is it correct to state then that all you know about whether Paul was or was not an associate is what Jack told you?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. You observed nothing of your own that would indicate that the man had some property interest in that club or some financial interest?
Mr. CRAFARD. Other than the fact that when he did come Jack and him would go into the office, almost every time he would come they would be in the office, from a half hour to 2 or 3 hours at a time talking.
Mr. HUBERT. But you didn't know about what?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, I didn't know about what.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack keep any books?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of books did he keep?
Mr. CRAFARD. As far as I know it was just his receipts and regular tax, regular books, business books.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean ledgers?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Who made the entries in them?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was either Jack Ruby or Andrew. He had an accountant do all his bookkeeping.
Mr. HUBERT. Who was that?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't remember who he was.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he was over the place one time while I was there during the day.
Mr. HUBERT. But you don't know his name?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. He asked for the books?
Mr. CRAFARD. Andy give him some papers.
Mr. HUBERT. Papers or books?
Mr. CRAFARD. Some of the the receipts, bar receipts and door receipts.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever see Jack and Ralph Paul go over any books together?
Mr. CRAFARD. No. I just says whenever they was together like that they would be together in the office, the office door would be locked and they would do talking. It was usually during when--during the evening when the club was in operation and I would be out front.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know Eva Grant?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Who is she?
Mr. CRAFARD. She was Jack Ruby's sister.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you come to meet her?
Mr. CRAFARD. I first met her at the fairgrounds, Jack first introduced me at the fairgrounds and then later I met her at the club.

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Mr. HUBERT. How often did you see her?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe I saw Eva about four times.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you get to know her as a person?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not too well.
Mr. HUBERT. On those four occasions how long were you in her company?
Mr. CRAFARD. Just for a few minutes at a time.
Mr. HUBERT. Did she have any interest in Ruby's affairs?
Mr. CRAFARD. She managed the Vegas Club for Jack.
Mr. HUBERT. Did she have an interest in the Carousel so far as you know?
Mr. CRAFARD. So far as I know; no.
Mr. HUBERT. Jack never told you that she did?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; as far as I knew the Carousel Club was Jack's as far as I knew.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you give us a physical description of her, how tall was she, how heavy was she?
Mr. CRAFARD. She is an oldish woman, probably weighs maybe 130, 135 pounds, stands probably right around 5'6", I would say.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So she is not a heavy woman?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not exceptionally heavy, no. For her age she is a real nice-looking woman.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know her age?
Mr. CRAFARD. How is that?
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know her age?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, but I believe she is Jack's older sister.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you get that information, from Jack?
Mr. CRAFARD. Well, from the way he talked. He had one older sister and a younger sister, and I met the family, the rest of his family at the trial and the other sister was younger than Jack, I knew that.
Mr. HUBERT. You have been to the Vegas, haven't you?
Mr. CRAFARD. Oh, yes; I was in the Vegas Club on several occasions.
Mr. HUBERT. You worked there?
Mr. CRAFARD. Two nights that I run the Vegas Club myself. One night I was the only one there. The next night I had a waitress there with me.
Mr. HUBERT. You stated that she was the manager of the Vegas Club for Jack?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you get that information?
Mr. CRAFARD. Jack said she was managing the club for him.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you there when she was there?
Mr. CRAFARD. I was there a couple of evenings after the Carousel Club closed we went over there to Vegas Club and she was there.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of George Senator?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Who was he?
Mr. CRAFARD. He was a friend of Jack's he was with Jack quite often.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, how often?
Mr. CRAFARD. He would come into the club with Jack three or four times a week anyway.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean when they would come in at night or in the afternoon this man Senator would be with him?
Mr. CRAFARD. It would be maybe during the day or maybe in the evenings.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you give us a description of him?
Mr. CRAFARD. He is a kind of heavy-set fellow about 5' 4", 5' 5".
Mr. HUBERT. A very short man?
Mr. CRAFARD. Fairly short. Wasn't much taller than Jack. He probably would, I would say, probably would weigh about 180, 185.
Mr. HUBERT. Fat or husky?
Mr. CRAFARD. Kind of on the fat side.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he have a limp?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he did, I am not sure.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know anything else about the relationship between him and Jack?

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Mr. CRAFARD. I believe him and Jack, he was rooming with Jack, I believe.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you ever at Jack's apartment?
Mr. CRAFARD. I was over to Jack's apartment on two different occasions.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you see then any evidence that they were living together?
Mr. CRAFARD. The only thing I knew for certain when I was over there was a two-bedroom apartment living room, kitchen and two bedrooms and he told me that one bedroom was George's room.
Mr. HUBERT. Ruby told you that?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see George at the apartment?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I can recall.
Mr. HUBERT. You only went there twice?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe I was there three times all told. I was there for a few minutes and then leave.
Mr. HUBERT. And you never saw Senator at the club--at the apartment?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I can recall.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know if Senator had any financial interest in Jack's affairs?
Mr CRAFARD. Not that I know of.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he work for Jack?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he was on the door a little bit, several times.
Mr. HUBERT. What does working on the door mean?
Mr. CRAFARD. He took the door price, he took the cover charge at the door.
Mr. HUBERT. How about a man named Bill DeMar, do you know him?
Mr. CRAFARD. Bill DeMar was a comedian.
Mr. HUBERT. Was he there when you were there?
Mr. CRAFARD. He came in while I was there, Jack hired him to come in.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did he stay?
Mr. CRAFARD. I think he was there yet when the club was closed, I believe.
Mr. HUBERT. What sort of a fellow was he?
Mr. CRAFARD. He was kind of an easygoing guy. Like most of your real good comedians, he was cracking a joke all the time.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, I gather from what you have told us about your life you can size these people up pretty well.
Mr. CRAFARD. I haven't only been wrong with my opinion once. I formed an opinion of a person with the first six or seven words they say and I have never been wrong in my life but once.
Mr. HUBERT. What do you think of Bill DeMar as to his truthfulness?
Mr. CRAFARD. He was a kind of a likable guy but to me he just didn't strike me, I didn't like him. I got along with him, I associated with him at the club but I wouldn't want to associate with him as a close friend.
Mr. HUBERT. What was there about him----
Mr. CRAFARD. He didn't strike me just right.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you think he is a fake?
Mr. CRAFARD. Well, I think 90 percent of him was fake, I would say. He was a fairly decent comedian but his way was "Big me and little you. I am everything and nobody else is anything," was the way he struck me.
Mr. HUBERT. He was there about how long?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he was there for about 2 weeks, I am not sure, between 2 and 3 weeks.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever get to converse with him?
Mr. CRAFARD. While he was there in the club I would speak with him, talk with him a little bit.
Mr. HUBERT. There was never any trouble between you, was there?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, there was never any trouble between us. I say he was an easy-going person.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see Joyce McDonald around there, the girl you previously identified?
Mr. CRAFARD. Joy was working on the stage.
Mr. HUBERT. What was she doing?
Mr. CRAFARD. She was a stripper.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the relationship between her and Jack, do you know?

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Mr. CRAFARD. That of boss and employee.
Mr. HUBERT. You never observed anything else?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. She was with him a lot, though, personally?
Mr. CRAFARD. She would talk with him around the club that I could see. She would talk with Jack.
Mr. HUBERT. Didn't she go out to dinner with him?
Mr. CRAFARD. To my knowledge, no.
Mr. HUBERT. Some time?
Mr. CRAFARD. She might have. I heard Jack make the remark at one time that he had been involved with every one of the girls that worked for him at one time.
Mr. HUBERT. You heard him say that?
Mr. CRAFARD. He made the remark to me, because of one of the waitresses worked for him was a real sweet-looking girl and she had a real wonderful personality.
Mr. HUBERT. Who was that?
Mr. CRAFARD. Marge, that is the only name I know her by, I don't know her last name.
Mr. HUBERT. She was a stripper?
Mr. CRAFARD. She was a waitress.
Mr. HUBERT. So what about Marge?
Mr. CRAFARD. How is that?
Mr. HUBERT. What about Marge?
Mr. CRAFARD. I said something, going out with her or something and he made the statement that he had had a relationship with everyone of the girls who worked for him.
Mr. HUBERT. When you say relationship or when he said it, you did understand him to refer to sexual relationship?
Mr. CRAFARD. Sexual relationship.
Mr. HUBERT. There can be no doubt about that?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. What did you infer from that remark of his relative to the remark you had made about your interest in Marge?
Mr. CRAFARD. Well, it would--my remark had been on the sexual basis.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, did you regard that as sort of a consent on his part for you to go ahead?
Mr. CRAFARD. No. He didn't want me to go, to have anything to do with any of the girls that worked for him.
Mr. HUBERT. So that in effect he was telling you that he was the one who was to have the sexual relationships with the girls and not anyone else?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is about the effect of it.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he say it as clearly as that?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; he didn't say it in so many words, but just an implied statement.
Mr. HUBERT. That is the meaning you got out of that colloquy, is that right?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us as best you can remember what the conversation was?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't know. I said something about I would like to get ahold of that or something, and Jack said, he said, he had already gotten into it or something like that, and something said about his girls, and I said so far as I am concerned--at that time it was a little later after I went to work for him--I said, "As far as I am concerned you haven't got a stripper I am interested in," and he said, "I have had a relationship with every one of them."
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you think Jack was puffing on that or did you believe him?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't know. As far as the strippers went I can very well believe that but the waitresses it was pretty hard to believe because little Marge, she ended up marrying a guy, and she was pretty stiff on him, and in fact, so much that I have tried everything I could to get her even to go out with me and she wouldn't do it. And the other girls didn't seem too much to me like the type that would do so.

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Mr. HUBERT. You did have a girl you went out with you used to meet at the Eatwell?
Mr. CRAFARD. One of the girls who worked for Jack.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was her name?
Mr. CRAFARD. She went to work for him later, I can't even remember her name now. The only one of the bunch I can remember, there were three girls there roomed together, the only one I can remember is Norma, and I first got acquainted with her was over the telephone and we had quite a conversation, and we became rather friendly over the telephone and when we met we was fairly friendly.
Mr. HUBERT. Did she work for Jack?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; Jack tried to get her to work as a stripper which he would do with every female, every nice looking girl, that he met. She would have nothing to do with it.
Mr. HUBERT. So you had this conversation with her on the telephone? Did you get to meet her?
Mr. CRAFARD. I met her at the club; yes. I met her in person and then I got to know her fairly well. We was together several times.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean on private dates?
Mr. CRAFARD. Well, it would be her and these other two girls. I was with the other girl mostly, and we would go over together and three of us sit together while we eat, and I would walk the girls home, something like that. They would come to the club and the club would close and I would walk this other girl home.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, there were two girls who worked for the club?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; only one worked for the club.
Mr. HUBERT. Which one was that, it was not Norma?
Mr. CRAFARD. Norma.
Mr. HUBERT. What was her name?
Mr. CRAFARD. I can't remember that girl's name. I can't remember the girl's name. She was a woman of about 29 years old, she had a real nice personality and was a wonderful person to talk to, all it was, just nice person to talk to and relax and just have an enjoyable time away from the club.
Mr. HUBERT. That was the one who was the waitress?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir; she was a cocktail waitress at the club. I knew her and her one girl friend were from back east somewhere and I met Norma back at the club.
Mr. HUBERT. Had Norma ever worked for the club?
Mr. CRAFARD. No. Jack was trying to get her to work for the club, was trying to get her to work as a stripper.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is Norma the girl you dated or saw quite a bit of?
Mr. CRAFARD. I saw her on two or three occasions before this other girl went to work for Jack.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And Norma is not a native of Dallas?
Mr. CRAFARD. She is a native of the Dallas area. Her home is about 20 miles north of Dallas, Carrollton, Tex.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever go out there?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I never went out there.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you know it was out there? How did you find out?
Mr. CRAFARD. She give me her address, address and phone number.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have that in the book you maintained for Jack?
Mr. CRAFARD. That was the reason for getting the phone and address. She called and inquired for a job, and I got her address and phone number which I do with all girls who come for a job.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you know Jack tried to get her to be a stripper?
Mr. CRAFARD. He had her at the club on several occasions talking her into being a stripper. He got her a job with Ralph Paul and he give her clothes and he gave her money and I went over with her to one store where to buy clothes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Jack bought her the clothes?
Mr. CRAFARD. He give me the money to buy the clothes.
Mr. HUBERT. How much was the amount?

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Mr. CRAFARD. $10 bill, I believe, at that time. Two or three times he bought clothes for the girl.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Ten dollar bill?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. She couldn't buy much with a $10 bill.
Mr. CRAFARD. She needed certain kinds of clothes, slacks and a blouse to work in when she went to work for Ralph Paul.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know what work she had been doing before she came to work for Paul?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; all I know she had been on several occasions in the club with Jack. They were pretty thick for a while, and then something happened between them to where she wouldn't have anything to do with Jack.
Mr. HUBERT. But you don't know what it was that happened?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I have no definite knowledge.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have some idea?
Mr. CRAFARD. I have an opinion; yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you give us an idea?
Mr. CRAFARD. He was making a big play for her, and my opinion is he got out of hand and she put a stop to it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anything else said by someone else that led you to believe it?
Mr. CRAFARD. Mostly she referred to it. She inferred it happened.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What would be getting out of hand in that situation, would it be simply Jack wanting to go to bed with her or would it be some unusual kind of sexual relations?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I would say wanting to go to bed with her as far as my knowledge. From what I knew of Norma she was a pretty decent girl. She was a little wild but she was a fairly decent girl.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How old a girl would you say she was?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe Norma was 18. She was a very friendly person, easy to like.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have a girl who worked at the Eatwell Restaurant that you dated?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. But you did go to the Eatwell Restaurant on Main Street, I think it was?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was on Commerce.
Mr. HUBERT. Commerce.
Mr. CRAFARD. I went there most of the time for my meals. It was, meals were cheap, nice place to go to, it was close, and I sat around there and joked with the girls and the one guy who worked in there I got acquainted with him a little bit.
Mr. HUBERT. How many girls in the club went there?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't believe the girls in the club went there to eat often.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Huey Reeves?
Mr. CRAFARD. The name isn't familiar to me.
Mr. HUBERT. Would it help you if I suggested that he worked at the Nichol's Garage next door?
Mr. CRAFARD. That would be the colored boy, I believe.
Mr. HUBERT. No; this was a white man.
Mr. CRAFARD. On a couple of occasions I sat in there and talked to him a couple of nights. We would sit in there and talk, maybe have a beer or two.
Mr. HUBERT. Beer or two where? At the Eatwell?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; the garage. In the office.
Mr. HUBERT. While you were there, who do you think were Ruby's best friends other than his business acquaintances?
Mr. CRAFARD. Oh, man, the man I seen him with mostly was Senator, that I know of him being was Senator, and Ralph Paul.
Mr. HUBERT. What about girl friends?
Mr. CRAFARD. He had one girl, I believe her name was Linda or something, she was a blond, she was a real nice looking girl that he went with quite a few times.

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Mr. HUBERT. Was she a stripper?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; she didn't work for him.
Mr. HUBERT. You don't know her first name?
Mr. CRAFARD. I am not positive of her name. I don't recall her name. Names is something to me that doesn't mean much. I meet so many people.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember the two fellows who ran the Eatwell Restaurant?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not too well.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there a couple of older men?
Mr. CRAFARD. One older man that worked behind the counter in the evenings.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack also eat at the Eatwell?
Mr. CRAFARD. He didn't eat there when I was there with him, after I went to work for him. I understood the guy knew Jack real well, in fact he got in the habit of calling me Jack Ruby, Jr., or Little Ruby, in a kind of teasing manner. He was a very friendly person.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that the older man?
Mr. CRAFARD. He was an older man; I believe the oldest man that I saw there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You don't recall his name, first name, do you?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don't recall his first name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was one of the fellows in there called Jimmy, that you recall?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I recall. There is one of those messes of pictures I would like to get hold of. There is one side of them I would just as soon get ahold of and tear up.
(Brief recess.)
Mr. HUBERT. You previously mentioned that there was a girl that Jack went out with socially.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did I understand you correctly that you said she did not work at the club?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. How often did he go out with her, to your knowledge?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't know how often. It was quite often.
Mr. HUBERT. How would it come to your attention that he was going out with her?
Mr. CRAFARD. Well, usually he would bring her in to the club with him before they would go, and after his club closed he would take her out to dinner.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you go out to dinner with them?
Mr. CRAFARD. On one occasion, I was at the Vegas, we went over to the Vegas Club, and then the three of us went afterwards and had dinner.
Mr. HUBERT. How do you know other than that one occasion when he went out with her that he took her to dinner?
Mr. CRAFARD. He would say that they was going to be taking her out to dinner.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see her at his apartment?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he ever indicate in any way that she did go to his apartment?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; not to my knowledge.
Mr. HUBERT. I am going to show you what I am marking five photographs on which I am writing as follows: "Washington, D.C., April 8, 1964, Exhibit 5200-A, Deposition of C. L. Crafard." And I am signing my name below there. On the next picture I am also marking, "Washington, D.C., April 8, 1964, Exhibit 5200-B, Deposition of C. L. Crafard," and I am placing my name below that. The third picture I am marking "Washington, D.C., April 8, 1964, Exhibit 5200-C, Deposition of C. L. Crafard," and signing my name below that. On the fourth picture I am marking "Washington, D.C., April 8, 1964, Exhibit 5200-D, Deposition of C. L. Crafard," and marking my name down on that; and on the fifth picture I am marking "Washington, D.C., April 8, 1964, Exhibit 5200-E, Deposition of C. L. Crafard" and signing my name.
(The pictures referred to were marked Exhibits Nos. 5200-A through E for identification.)
Mr. HUBERT. Now, I ask you to look at the pictures which have been marked for identification as follows: Exhibits 5200-A, 5200-B, 5200-C, 5200--D, and 5200-E, and I ask you if in any one or all of those pictures you can see the girl

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we have just been talking about, to wit, the girl that Jack took out to dinner and otherwise met socially?
Mr. CRAFARD. Her picture is in every one.
Mr. HUBERT. Her picture is in every one?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you identify the one that you are talking about by referring to her dress?
Mr. CRAFARD. In Exhibit A it would be the middle girl wearing a red and white striped dress.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember if it was red and white?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don't remember the color, but it seems to me it would be a stripe, something that people would wear.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, do you remember ever seeing that girl in a red and white dress similar to that dress?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe she was in the club one time with a red and white checkered dress on.
Mr. HUBERT. Not stripes like that?
Mr. CRAFARD. No. It was a softer----
Mr. HUBERT. So your remark that it was red and white was inadvertent, or do you really have any recollection?
Mr. CRAFARD. It would be an inadvertent remark.
Mr. HUBERT. All right. Go on to the next picture and call off the identification mark when you speak of it.
Mr. CRAFARD. Exhibit B, it would be the girl, in the middle in the striped dress.
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. CRAFARD. In Exhibit C it would be the girl behind Ruby looking over his shoulder in the striped dress. Exhibit D it would be the girl behind Ruby looking over his shoulder with the striped dress. Exhibit E would be the girl in the middle with the striped dress.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recognize Ruby in all of these pictures, too?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I do.
Mr. HUBERT. Who is the other girl?
Mr. CRAFARD. The other girl was one of the strippers in his club.
Mr. HUBERT. What was her name?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it is Tammi True.
Mr. HUBERT. That girl you have identified in all those pictures as having the striped dress, that is the girl you are talking about whom Ruby used to take out socially?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. And you don't know her name?
Mr. CRAFARD. Could I say that other girl is Kathy Kay, I am definite of that after looking at her picture closer.
Mr. HUBERT. The blond girl is Kathy Kay?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. So you want to change your opinion expressed a moment ago that it was Tammi True, is that correct?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Prior to the taking of this segment of the deposition dealing with the identification of these photos, I think you had looked at at least one of these photos and could not recognize the girl that you have now recognized as being the companion of Ruby.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. As being such. Then later you have come to the conclusion that it is the girl. Can you tell us why you have now come to the conclusion that it is the same girl?
Mr. CRAFARD. After looking at the whole group of pictures and the different angles of her head where you can see her features better, I came to the con- clusion that is the girl.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, when you first expressed doubt as to whether it was, you were looking at one picture only?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

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Mr. HUBERT. And after having looked at all of those pictures, that is to say five of them as identified, you now are positive that that is the girl?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. I understand you to say you had at least one occasion on which you actually had dinner with Jack and this girl is that correct?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. Would it be fair to say you were in her company therefore and could see her at close range for a period of at least an hour on that occasion?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. But you don't know who she is?
Mr. CRAFARD. I cannot recall her name, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. I wish you would give some thought to what her name is before you leave so perhaps we can----
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever have occasion to write her name down any place for Jack?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe her name was wrote down, I believe her name was wrote down in the notebook.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In the little notebook you were keeping for him?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I am not sure.
Mr. HUBERT. All right. Now, what other friends did you note that Ruby had? You mentioned George Senator, and you have mentioned this girl who was in the striped dress in the Exhibits 5200-A, -B, -C, -D, and -E. Who else do you know?
Mr. CRAFARD. Ralph Paul.
Mr. HUBERT. I think you have told us something about him.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Who else?
Mr. CRAFARD. There was a couple of the comedians from some of the other clubs that came up to the club quite often.
Mr. HUBERT. Who were they?
Mr. CRAFARD. I wouldn't know their names.
Mr. HUBERT. Were there any others than those you have already mentioned?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I can name; no, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. How long were you at the club from the time you first went there until the time you left?
Mr. CRAFARD. Approximately 6 weeks to a month or 2 months.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see any members of the Dallas police force there?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us something about that.
Mr. CRAFARD. Well, the uniformed patrolman would come up every once in awhile in the evening and have coffee on the club.
Mr. HUBERT. When you say on the club, you mean without paying for it?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. How do you know that?
Mr. CRAFARD. I on several occasions--I on several occasions served the coffee for them.
Mr. HUBERT. Normally you would collect for that?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. I mean normally you would collect from another patron.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. But you didn't collect from the police?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Why?
Mr. CRAFARD. Jack told me to go ahead and they could have coffee whenever they wanted.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you did not ask any money for the coffee because you had been instructed not to by Jack?
Mr. CRAFARD. The girls had told me that they was allowed to do so.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember which girl?
Mr. CRAFARD. The waitresses.
Mr. HUBERT. The waitresses?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

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Mr. HUBERT. Jack never did mention the subject to you?
Mr. CRAFARD. The only thing he ever mentioned was that the policemen went off duty, would come in there when they were off duty, got their drinks at a cut price.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the cut price?
Mr. CRAFARD. The normal price was 60 cents, and they got them for 40 cents.
Mr. HUBERT. That you say is when they were off duty?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he give you any instructions as to what the price was to be when they came in on duty?
Mr. CRAFARD. There was no charge for the coffee, and none would drink anything other than coffee, to my knowledge, when they were on duty or maybe a Coke or--a glass of Coke or a glass of 7-Up.
Mr. HUBERT. How did they identify themselves when they were off duty so that they got the cut rate?
Mr. CRAFARD. Well, most of them when they come in there, when they come to the door they got in the door free so they showed a card at the door, their identification at the door. And then it usually would be at the bar, the girls knew most of them that did come in there when they were off duty. Evidently I took it that Jack had introduced them as officers, and we had occasion one night to serve one of the gentlemen, we was talking, and one of the girls when I took over the bar from Andy, he had to leave early, and he told me this gentleman was a police officer. He said he only charged him 40 cents. So I had occasion to talk with them.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you get to know any by sight?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; not that I could--just when he walked in the door and say he was a police officer.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know any by name?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see any of those policemen at the Ruby trial?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't recall it, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How many different policemen would you say came in to Ruby's place during the period you were there?
Mr. CRAFARD. When they were off duty, to my knowledge, there was only about 4 or 5 of them would come in there, off duty, and it was usually the same ones that were on duty that would come in to have coffee, patrolmen. The others were usually plainclothesmen, detectives.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know what bureau any of them were attached to?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know whether there were any of them attached to the juvenile bureau?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; not definitely.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You have some thought that they were?
Mr. CRAFARD. You mentioned the juvenile bureau, it seems to me there was something mentioned about one of them being from the juvenile bureau or something.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is this something you read in the paper, or something that was mentioned at the club.
Mr. CRAFARD. No, something that was mentioned at the club.
Mr. HUBERT. Did Ruby follow a pretty close routine of life insofar as his activities were concerned?
Mr. CRAFARD. For him, yes. His routine was for myself, or for any ordinary businessmen that I have known, any businessmen that I have known, would have been a real rough, hurry-scurry routine.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, let's take it timewise. For instance, you say he usually called you in the morning. Was that pretty routine?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; that varied.
Mr. HUBERT. And I think you said that he came in usually sometime before noon.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Was that pretty regular?

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Mr. CRAFARD. Most of the time he would be in before noon, between 10:30 and 12 o'clock.
Mr. HUBERT. Then what would he do with the rest of the day?
Mr. CRAFARD. Well, he would be around the club for maybe anywhere from a half hour to 2 hours, then he would leave the club and I might not see him again until midnight.
Mr. HUBERT. And then he stayed until the club closed?
Mr. CRAFARD. When he came back to the club after the club opened he generally stayed until the club closed. On three or four occasions he stayed until the club closed and then he went over to the Vegas Club.
Mr. HUBERT. Normally what would he do?
Mr. CRAFARD. He would go over to the Vegas Club and pick up the receipts for the day.
Mr. HUBERT. And then what?
Mr. CRAFARD. As far as I know, go home maybe stop for a bite to eat.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What would he do with the receipts?
Mr. CRAFARD. He would carry them home with him and the next day bring them back to the Carousel.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have a safe?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; he bought a safe while I was with him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When was that?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was about 2 weeks prior to the assassination of President Kennedy.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did he happen to come to buy that safe?
Mr. CRAFARD. Well, he was always carrying quite a bit of cash and he was always worried about having somebody rob him or something, and I guess he wanted, he finally made up his mind to buy a safe and he went down to buy a safe.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you with him?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir; I was with him when he purchased the safe.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall where he went?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't recall the name of the company.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Whereabouts was it located?
Mr. CRAFARD. Let's see, it was a block and a half right straight behind the Carousel Club, but I can't recall the name of the street.
Mr. GRIFFIN. It would have been on Field?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, Commerce--Field is next to Commerce, I believe.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. CRAFARD. It was the next block back.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it a----
Mr. CRAFARD. It was a furniture, office furniture supply house.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Now, how big a safe was it that he bought?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was a wall safe, a floor safe.
Mr. GRIFFIN. About how high would you say that it stood off the floor?
Mr. CRAFARD. About 18 inches tall. The common type that is poured in the cement in the floor.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this poured in the cement?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Could somebody, if somebody had broken into the building, could they have carried this safe away?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir. The safe was in his office and the office was always locked and I was there all the time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But when you weren't there, if somebody had gotten into the building, and had broken into the office, why they could have carried this out?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir; they could have carried this out.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have the combination of the safe?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; Mr. Ruby and Andy was the only ones who had the combination.
Mr. GRIFFIN. After he bought this safe did he use it to keep his money in?
Mr. CRAFARD. To my knowledge he only used it for the night receipts from the Carousel Club and Andy when he checked out if Jack wasn't there, the safe had

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a compartment in the bottom they claimed was a burglarproof compartment in the bottom, had an envelope slot in it and he would drop an envelope with the money in it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What would be done with the money at the end of the night? What would he do with the money?
Mr. CRAFARD. The next day Jack would take the money out and count it up.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What would he do with it?
Mr. CRAFARD. He would put it in his pocket and go to the bank.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he bank some place?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did he bank?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was the First National, but I am not positive of that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you actually go with him to the bank when he----
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; not when he was banking the deposits.
Mr. GRIFFIN. At the end of, on a typical week night, about how much money would he have left, would he have at the end of the night?
Mr. CRAFARD. Oh, a typical night would maybe be anywhere from a $100 to $500 or $600.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Of course, he had more business on the weekends than he had during the week, didn't he?
Mr. CRAFARD. Usually; yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Just taking the nights Monday through Thursday, how much would he typically have on one of those nights?
Mr. CRAFARD. Between $100 and $300, I would say.
Mr. HUBERT. That is gross, isn't it?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. On a weekend night, on a Friday, Saturday or Sunday night how much would be take in?
Mr. CRAFARD. Anywhere from $100 to maybe $1,000. Depending on the type of what was doing there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you there any nights that he took in $1,000?
Mr. CRAFARD. The most I have ever known him to take in was one weekend, Friday and Saturday night, I believe it was $1,400 for the 2 nights.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to know that?
Mr. CRAFARD. I would usually be around when they counted the money up, and that weekend, I believe Sunday we was talking and Andy said something about that is the most money they took in any weekend for the last year or something like that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he deal with any particular distributor of beer?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the company that----
Mr. CRAFARD. He dealt with the different companies, one being the Pearl Beer, each different brand of beer had different distributors.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Had its own distributors?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about liquor, did he buy hard liquor?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, there was no hard liquor sold in the club.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So his only purchases were beer?
Mr. CRAFARD. Beer, coke and champagne.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who did he buy that from?
Mr. CRAFARD. Most of that was bought to my knowledge from the liquor store on the corner. I believe it was Segalis.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How much champagne would he stock any one time?
Mr. CRAFARD. When he bought champagne he would usually buy a case of 12 bottles and it would usually average about two cases a week.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did they serve food?
Mr. CRAFARD. The only food we served was pizzas.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was pizzas?
Mr. CRAFARD. Pizzas.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were those made at the Carousel or were they sent out from those----

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Mr. CRAFARD. We got those from Palumbo's Pizza House. All you had to do was stick them in a warmer and warm them up.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So his only expenses--tell me if you can think of any other expenses besides the one I recite here. He had the expenses of his entertainers, he had expenses for you and Andy Armstrong, he had rent and heat and light, and he had beer and pizza. Did he have any other expenses that you can think of?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I would say would be Carousel business expenses, no. He had a lot of sinking money into things all the time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What sort of things were those?
Mr. CRAFARD. Well, he was putting quite a bit of money into this twist board exerciser that he was promoting.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have any other promotions besides the twist board while you were with him?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I recall. He would buy records and he had to buy flashbulbs and film for the camera. He took Polaroid pictures every night, three of them each night.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Three Polaroid pictures each night?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; we had one girl who was, I believe it was Tammi True, would get on the stage and she would get a guy up there with her on the stage and take a picture of them and and give the picture of the man, that was the only photograph taken and that would go right to the man.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, what other business, you say he was always sinking money into things.
Mr. CRAFARD. Well, he had the Vegas Club and from what I understand he was taking money from the Vegas Club to keep the Carousel Club from what I understood which I never could figure out.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Why couldn't you figure that out?
Mr. CRAFARD. Well, we always made enough to clear our bills, the Carousel made enough to clear the bills.
Mr. GRIFFIN. By the bills you include the salaries of the entertainers?
Mr. CRAFARD. Most of that, yes. He was paying pretty good salaries. These girls got anywhere from $300 to $400, maybe $400, $500 a week for their enterraining.
Mr. GRIFFIN. They all didn't get that much.
Mr. CRAFARD. The entertainers, got anywhere from $300 to $500, $600 average, different.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that just the featured stripper or was that each stripper?
Mr. CRAFARD. Jada was there, I believe, she was drawing $700 a month and the other girls I think was drawing between $300 and $500, somewhere between $300 and $500.
Mr. GRIFFIN. A month?
Mr. CRAFARD. A month.
Mr. GRIFFIN. A month. How about "Little" Lynn when she came to work there, was she getting paid the same as the rest of them?
Mr. GRIFFIN. I believe so, I am not sure. I don't know what her wages were, I am not sure, positive about it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Other than the twist beards and the Carousel and the Vegas Club what other things was Jack putting money into?
Mr. CRAFARD. To my knowledge that is all he had. He never seemed to have any. He always claimed he was going broke all the time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he actually selling these twist beards?
Mr. CRAFARD. He had never had made any sales while I was with him.
Mr. HUBERT. Before you get into this, let me finish up this financial operation. I don't think you have mentioned what the waitresses got.
Mr. CRAFARD. The waitresses worked on tips.
Mr. HUBERT. Purely? There was no expense in connection with that?
Mr. CRAFARD. To my knowledge, no.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know if Armstrong got any salary?
Mr. CRAFARD. He got a salary.
Mr. HUBERT. How much was it?

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Mr. CRAFARD. I am not sure. I think he was drawing about $300 a month, I am not sure.
Mr. HUBERT. Then there was a man Howard. the maintenance man.
Mr. CRAFARD. Howard just got paid, whenever he worked he would get paid, I think a dollar an hour. He didn't work all the time. He might only get 4 or 5 hours a week.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How much would you estimate in a typical week Ruby took in?
Mr. CRAFARD. In a typical week it would be anywhere from one to three thousand.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know where these twist boards were manufactured?
Mr. CRAFARD. They were manufactured in Houston--Fort Worth, I mean.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the name of the company?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't recall the name of the company. I had it wrote down but I don't recall the name of it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember the name of a company called Plastolite Engineering.
Mr. CRAFARD. I remember something about it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But that wasn't the name of the company that was manufacturing the twist boards?
Mr. CRAFARD. It might have been, I am not sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How was Jack trying to sell these twist boards?
Mr. CRAFARD. Like I say, he promoted them out at the fair--State Fair, and he had a couple of different stores promoting them, and he had----
Mr. GRIFFIN. You mean they would be on display some place?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. And there was some set up, where some of the strippers went out to one place and done the twist on these twist exercisers.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But to your knowledge he never made a sale on one?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How much would one cost, if you wanted to buy it?
Mr. CRAFARD. The way he was selling them I believe it was two something. They were selling them in Texas but it was Penney's, I believe it was Penney's store was selling them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In Texas, you mean in Dallas?
Mr. CRAFARD. In Dallas. They were selling them for $3.95 apiece, I think it was and he was selling his for $2.95 apiece.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack have anybody else associated with him in these twist boards?
Mr. CRAFARD. He was trying to get his one brother to do something with them, and I believe it was in Chicago.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That would have been Hyman?
Mr. CRAFARD. How is that?
Mr. GRIFFIN. That would have been Hyman in Chicago?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was "Hy," yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you know he was trying to get "Hy" interested in it?
Mr. CRAFARD. He had me send some to him.
Mr. HUBERT. I gather from what you have testified to that you have been around carnivals and you have met a lot of people, and also I think you said that you form an impression of an individual pretty quickly and have found in your own experience you have only been wrong once, I think.
Mr. CRAFARD. I have been wrong twice that I can recall.
Mr. HUBERT, I would like you to tell us what your impression was of Ruby, and if you can, give us some factual examples and reasons, you know.
Mr. CRAFARD. Well, first he was a kind of a likable person. He was kind of impressable. I mean he impressed me somewhat. I had one instant feeling, I can't recollect, more or less the way he talked and his actions that the man might be somewhat queer.
Mr. HUBERT. When you say "queer" you mean what?
Mr. CRAFARD. As the general usage of the term.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean homosexual?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What caused you to feel that?

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Mr. CRAFARD. The way he talked and his general action.
Mr. HUBERT. Was he effeminate in his method of speaking?
Mr. CRAFARD. More or less.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he have a lisp?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I recall.
Mr. HUBERT. What other physical actions that you observed that you think support or supported your view that he might be homosexual?
Mr. CRAFARD. Well, mostly just the way he talked and mostly the way he walked.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he have any activity----
Mr. CRAFARD. When I first met him.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he have any activity with his hands or walk or dress?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is it, the way a person walks or moves or uses his hands, involve the appearance of this type of person which I have been in contact with quite a few of them in the type of things I have been doing.
Mr. HUBERT. So the overall impression that you had from his speech and from his movement of hands and his walk gave you the impression that he would fit into the category of people who in your experience were homosexuals?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have occasion to change that view?
Mr. CRAFARD. Oh, at the same time I kind of liked him, and I never really went as far as changing that opinion I never really changed it although he had never made any overtures toward me.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him make any overtures toward any man?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not to my knowledge, not that I ever saw.
Mr. HUBERT. You heard about some, I suppose?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I didn't. I never heard about any cases where he had.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear people express the view that he was homosexual?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not people that I met after I went to work for him. But this friend of mine that met him the same night I did, him and I were pretty well agreed on the subject that he seemed to be quite that type.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the name of that friend?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't even remember his name. He was a carnival worker, he worked at the carnival.
Mr. HUBERT. It was not one of the owners?
Mr. CRAFARD. Just a worker.
Mr. HUBERT. And he was not homosexual himself?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; he was a pretty straight kid.
Mr. HUBERT. How do you square that off, that opinion of him, with the fact that he was going out with a girl that you have identified in that Exhibit 5200 A, B, C, D, and E?
Mr. CRAFARD. I have known several people of this type that were married and had families.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you didn't think that was inconsistent with your former view, your earlier view?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; as far as being inconsistent with my knowledge of that type of person it isn't.
Mr. HUBERT. Is it fair to say that your original impression of Ruby that he might be homosexual still persists to this day?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right. Although he was a likable person and I liked him, and I have got one opinion, I don't care, I know for sure if a man is that way if he leaves me alone I can get along fine with him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have any friends or acquaintances whom you also thought were homosexuals?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; he did.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Which would those people be?
Mr. CRAFARD. George Senator, for one. He was the only one of his friends that I met that I really felt that way about.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you describe Senator so that we can understand why you felt he was a homosexual?
Mr. CRAFARD. More or less from the way he talked more than anything. It is

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kind of hard for me to explain it because I haven't got the education to use the words.
Mr. GRIFFIN. We don't want it--we, the only reason we are taking it this way is because we don't want to put words in your mouth.
Mr. CRAFARD. Well, mostly because of the way he talked, his actions.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well now, when you went into Jack's apartment, did you see anything in that apartment which would lead you to think that he and George were having homosexual relationships?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; just general bachelor apartment more than anything.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you notice that one of the beds had been slept in and the other hadn't, for example?
Mr. CRAFARD. I only saw the bed in Jack's room. The other bedroom the door was closed.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Senator have feminine mannerisms?
Mr. CRAFARD. Mostly in his speech, at times. It wasn't all the time but at times he would have the mannerisms in his speech, the way he uses his hands.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he giggling or what sort of manners?
Mr. CRAFARD. Oh, a lot about the way he laughed. He would get to talking about different things and the way his voice would sound more than anything.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the topics that you heard Jack and Senator talk about. Was there anything about the subjects of conversation that they had which would indicate that they were homosexual or had some sort of.
Mr. CRAFARD. No. The only thing I could say along that line was that they was always together, they were together an awful lot.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Were you able to tell from their relationship whether one of them was performing services for the other whether in the maintenance of the household, for example, one of them was assuming responsibilities or the other wasn't or taking care of clothes or things like that?
Mr. CRAFARD. Well, most of the cooking Jack done 90 percent, most of the cooking that was done in the apartment to my knowledge was done by Jack.
Mr. HUBERT. How do you know that?
Mr. CRAFARD. Well, on a couple of occasions Senator--Jack was billing Senator out because he had cooked something that he shouldn't have cooked or something, that--and it was something he didn't do very often was cook. I can't remember the name, what, everything what was said or everything. But it was to the fact that he didn't cook anything around the place and when he did cook it, the few times he did cook he would cook it wrong or something.
Mr. HUBERT. And you heard that from having heard Jack remonstrate with him?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Is it fair to state that except for the specific examples you have given here your impression of both these men, Ruby and Senator concerning their homosexual tendencies, is based upon your experience with other people of that same type.
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you any other specifics to mention?
Mr. CRAFARD. That would be about the only thing I could think of.
Mr. HUBERT. What would you say of Jack concerning his temper, and his reaction to situations?
Mr. CRAFARD. He had an erratic temper.
Mr. HUBERT. What do you mean, give us examples, you know.
Mr. CRAFARD. You never knew something that you thought would blow him up might not bother him, something that you thought would not bother him a bit he would blow up about.
Mr. HUBERT. Like what? I mean that must be based upon something that happened.
Mr. CRAFARD. Like Andy making a goof with regards to the gifts were supposed to work. They took nights off.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, tell us about that so we have it in the record.
Mr. CRAFARD. Well, the first time it happened Jack got pretty mad about it. The next time it happened, one of the girls was supposed to be there and didn't show up, Jack never said a word.

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Mr. HUBERT. When you say he got mad about it, how did he manifest his anger?
Mr. CRAFARD. Raising his voice, shouting and calling Andy some "stupid."
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack swear, use profanity?
Mr. CRAFARD. Very seldom. When he usually did it was usually "hell" or "damn."
Mr. HUBERT. Have you any other examples to give us that would throw light upon his temper?
Mr. CRAFARD. One day, I was using a vacuum cleaner and it wouldn't work and something went wrong with it, something like that, the club has got to be clean, you would think the man would be kind of perturbed about it and he wasn't the least bit bothered about it. I would be cleaning the club and he would come in while I was cleaning the club, and he would get pretty perturbed because I was working the vacuum cleaner while he was there and he would yell at me and make me quit cleaning until he had left.
Mr. HUBERT. Had you ever seen him in arguments with other people?
Mr. CRAFARD. A couple of times with, he got pretty perturbed at the M.C.s, the one M.C. because of some of the jokes he was telling, some of the stories.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us about that, please, start off with the name of the M.C. if you can.
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't remember the M.C.s name.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember what period of time it was?
Mr. CRAFARD. Working for Jack when I went to work for him. He was working for Jack.
Mr. HUBERT. How many M.C.s worked during that time?
Mr. CRAFARD. About three different M.C.s.
Mr. HUBERT. This was the one who was working when you first went to work with it?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us about that?
Mr. CRAFARD. He had quite a habit of telling racial jokes and Jack was pretty much against this and on several occasions he got pretty perturbed with the M.C. for telling the racial jokes.
Mr. HUBERT. When you say pretty perturbed, you see that doesn't tell us about what he did.
Mr. CRAFARD. To the point where he went in among the chairs right by the stage and was yelling at the M.C.
Mr. HUBERT. So that he could be heard all over the club?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. Very definitely.
Mr. HUBERT. And yelling, by yelling you mean that his voice was raised above the normal?
Mr. CRAFARD. Very much so.
Mr. HUBERT. What was he saying?
Mr. CRAFARD. Telling him, you know, "I don't like that kind of jokes in here." He said, stuff like that.
Mr. HUBERT. What kind of jokes were they?
Mr. CRAFARD. Racial jokes.
Mr. HUBERT. Well about what race?
Mr. CRAFARD. Colored people.
Mr. HUBERT. About the colored people?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; Jack was against a racial joke of any type, very much so.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you find that out from him or just from this occasion?
Mr. CRAFARD. From these different occasions like that.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he ever tell you himself that he was?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; not personally, but from the way he acted on different occasions like that that would happen he would chew the M.C. out pretty good for telling the racial jokes and for some pretty vulgar jokes he told on occasions.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean he objected to vulgar jokes?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; he said that his objection was the club was no place for that real vulgar type of joke.
Mr. HUBERT. By vulgar you mean a joke that dealt with sex?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; joke that would leave no doubt in a person's mind that it was a sexual joke. Some of them that he told were just that type of joke.

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Mr. HUBERT. You mean abnormal sex?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. So what he objected to were jokes that had to do with abnormal sex, is that correct?
Mr. CRAFARD. Well, there was, I think on one or two occasions there was, the M.C. told jokes of an abnormal sex, but there was things that were real vulgar jokes where he was cussing a lot or something in a joke he didn't care for too much. He don't like the foul language used in the club very much.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about--these comedians must have told sexual jokes, didn't they?
Mr. CRAFARD. Oh, yes; that is one of the things that put a comedian over in that kind of a club; they are there to sell sex, and if they don't tell a sexual joke the comedian is nothing.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you distinguish for us between the kind of sexual jokes that Jack would be upset about and those he accepted?
Mr. CRAFARD. [Deleted.]
Mr. HUBERT. Is that the type of joke that Ruby objected to?
Mr. CRAFARD. That type of joke would be acceptable because it leaves a person to figure out in his own mind, what the deal is.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind would be objectionable?
Mr. CRAFARD. [Deleted.]
Mr. HUBERT. That would be an objectionable joke?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; because there would be no question in anybody's mind.
Mr. HUBERT. Is that a specific example, or one that you were using?
Mr. CRAFARD. An example; the joke was not told in the club.
Mr. HUBERT. From what you have told us as a generalization it would seem to be this, that any joke that left it to the imagination of the listener would be all right with Jack, but if it was specific he objected to it.
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right. It was pretty well acceptable all over the country that way. You take even with a party joke. If a party joke leaves in a person's mind in most places, leaves it to a person to imagine it themselves, it is acceptable. But if there isn't any doubt it doesn't make it acceptable in a mixed party.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Larry, did you learn anything that would indicate whether Jack's attitude about these jokes
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you form any impression about Ralph Paul, as to whether Ralph Paul was a homosexual?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; Ralph was a pretty good, decent guy. I liked him, what little I did know of him. I like him. He was kind of a stuffed shirt, but he was a fair, likable guy.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you notice if Jack's club was visited by any people who would appear to you to be homosexuals?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I didn't notice that. I can't recall of any specific people coming in that would appear to be this way.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack ever talk to you about sex?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; very seldom; one or two occasions when I said something about a girl or something, when I said something about a girl or something.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was his interest in his dogs?
Mr. CRAFARD. Sheba was the only one that really meant a lot to him. He was like a lot of people who are alone, and get with animals.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You mean he was attached to them?
Mr. CRAFARD. Really attached.
Mr. GRIFFIN. To Sheba?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he breed Sheba?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. Sheba had been bred.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this something that he did, or did he send her some place to be bred?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he took her to another place, another place to be bred; I am not sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anything, any experience you had which indicated he had any sexual interest in these dogs?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I wouldn't say so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever see him try to sexually stimulate these dogs?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I ever saw.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear anything in that regard?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Now the example you gave us about Ruby putting the man out at the club is the only one that you ever perceived as an act of physical violence?
Mr. CRAFARD. Where he actually used physical violence. I have seen him where he was close to it at another M.C. at one time. Threatened for him to go out or he would throw him out, which was something which occurred every 2 or 3 months with other M.C.'s.
Mr. HUBERT. Were there any occasions when you say that Jack handled a situation that could have involved violence but did not?
Mr. CRAFARD. Well, the situation where he told that M.C. to get out. It could have really involved violence, Jack's just; he was about ready to grab the guy, and he just turned and walked away from him.
Mr. HUBERT. Jack walked away from that man?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You never saw him hit anybody?
Mr. CRAFARD. No. The only time I even saw him touch anybody was when he got the man's hand and knocked it down.
Mr. HUBERT. Was the comedian bigger than Jack?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; bigger than Jack.
Mr. HUBERT. Quite a bit bigger?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. How about the patron that he handled?

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Mr. CRAFARD. He was a bigger fellow. He stood about 6 foot. He is quite a bit bigger than I am, even. He was taller and heavier.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know anything about what Ruby did to keep in physical condition?
Mr. CRAFARD. I knew he worked with barbells quite a lot.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you know that?
Mr. CRAFARD. He told me about his barbells a couple of times and he was dieting, and I had heard that he went to a gymnasium quite often.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he seem to you to be a powerful man, considering his build and weight and size?
Mr. CRAFARD. For his type of build and flabbiness as he was, he had quite a bit of strength.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you know that?
Mr. CRAFARD. Well----
Mr. HUBERT. Well, I mean did you observe him in a situation which demonstrated the use of strength?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; not really where it would be a real test of strength or anything. I have never seen anything of that sort.
Mr. HUBERT. I was just wondering how you formed the impression that he was a pretty strong m occurred every 2 or 3 months with other M.C.'s.
Mr. HUBERT. Were there any occasions when you say that Jack handled a situation that could have involved violence but did not?
Mr. CRAFARD. Well, the situation where he told that M.C. to get out. It could have really involved violence, Jack's just; he was about ready to grab the guy, and he just turned and walked away from him.
Mr. HUBERT. Jack walked away from that man?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You never saw him hit anybody?
Mr. CRAFARD. No. The only time I even saw him touch anybody was when he got the man's hand and knocked it down.
Mr. HUBERT. Was the comedian bigger than Jack?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; bigger than Jack.
Mr. HUBERT. Quite a bit bigger?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. How about the patron that he handled?

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Mr. CRAFARD. He was a bigger fellow. He stood about 6 foot. He is quite a bit bigger than I am, even. He was taller and heavier.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know anything about what Ruby did to keep in physical condition?
Mr. CRAFARD. I knew he worked with barbells quite a lot.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you know that?
Mr. CRAFARD. He told me about his barbells a couple of times and he was dieting, and I had heard that he went to a gymnasium quite often.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he seem to you to be a powerful man, considering his build and weight and size?
Mr. CRAFARD. For his type of build and flabbiness as he was, he had quite a bit of strength.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you know that?
Mr. CRAFARD. Well----
Mr. HUBERT. Well, I mean did you observe him in a situation which demonstrated the use of strength?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; not really where it would be a real test of strength or anything. I have never seen anything of that sort.
Mr. HUBERT. I was just wondering how you formed the impression that he was a pretty strong man, considering his size.
Mr. CRAFARD. Well, for as heavy a man as he was, he was pretty solid for one thing; he was fairly solid.
Mr. HUBERT. You could tell that by looking at him?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. I suppose you have seen him with his coat off or something.
Mr. CRAFARD. I saw him with just his pants and a T-shirt on, or an undershirt and pants, on one occasion when I went to his house. He shaved and he said something and I stepped over to the bathroom door; I couldn't hear. He repeated it and I stepped back and sat down and watched television and then he went ahead and got cleaned up.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he carry a gun?
Mr. CRAFARD. He had one in the car. He very seldom carried it on his person.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did he keep it in the car?
Mr. CRAFARD. Usually in the trunk; it was in a money pouch, a money sack, which usually stayed in the trunk.
Mr. HUBERT. You say he didn't carry it on his person?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see it on his person or know it was there in some way?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir; one night that I knew for sure it was there.
Mr. HUBERT. What night was that?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't recall the date, but something happened, and Jack sent me down to the car to get the gun and bring it up to him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there some trouble in the Carousel?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't remember whether it was right in the Carousel or whether it was a phone call or what it was, really. There was something there----
Mr. HUBERT. He told you something that indicated he ought to have the gun, and he asked you to go get it?
Mr. CRAFARD. He sent me down after the gun.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he just simply send you down after the gun, or did he tell you that there was something that had happened?
Mr. CRAFARD. He sent me down after the gun. Something happened right there at the club. I can't----
Mr. HUBERT. Was it some sort of a disturbance?
Mr. CRAFARD. I can't recall just what it was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this an incident that other people would have been aware of; Andy Armstrong might have been aware of?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe Andy Armstrong was right there at the time. I believe most any of the girls who worked for him were aware of it at the time.
Mr. HUBERT. Did I misunderstand you? Did you say this incident where you were sent for the gun was preceded by a phone call?

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Mr. CRAFARD. I am not sure. He had been on the phone and then he went outside and then something happened at the club; he had an argument or something.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he do after you brought the gun?
Mr. CRAFARD. He was right there and the club was closed and I didn't see him until the next day. He seemed pretty angry.
Mr. GRIFFIN. He didn't try to throw anybody out?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was George Senator there at the time?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't recall.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember how close this incident was to the death of the President?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was either a week before or the same week, earlier the same week, that President Kennedy was assassinated.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it a weekday?
Mr. CRAFARD. No. It was during the week.
Mr. HUBERT. It was not on a weekend?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; it was during the week.
Mr. HUBERT. So it would have been sometime between the 17th, say, of November and prior to the 22d, or it would have been sometime between, the 11th and the 15th of November; is that correct?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever noticed any incidents of Ruby that would throw some light on whether he was a person who had a trait of kindness or benevolence toward other people?
Mr. CRAFARD. He was quite kindhearted.
Mr. HUBERT. Give us an example of that.
Mr. CRAFARD. One example was the way he took me in. He had no reason for doing it. He wasn't obligated to do it in any way.
Mr. HUBERT. You think you earned your pay?
Mr. CRAFARD. What is that?
Mr. HUBERT. Do you think you earned your pay?
Mr. CRAFARD. I think I earned everything I got.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you still think it was an act of kindness on his part to take you in?
Mr. CRAFARD. I think he was doing me a favor, and still in all he was getting some pretty cheap work, labor.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ask him for the job or did he ask you?
Mr. CRAFARD. He asked me. And then I know of another occasion where I was told about of this young fellow he took in didn't do a thing around the club and he had him around there for 3 or 4 months.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did it seem to you that Jack felt it was important that he have somebody at the club all the time?
Mr. CRAFARD. After I was there for a while he seemed to feel that way. At first, when I first got to know him, he didn't seem to feel that way.
Mr. HUBERT. This boy that had been there more or less doing the job that you did, but was there prior to you; did you know this fellow?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I didn't know him. I had heard--Andy had told me about him.
Mr. HUBERT. Isn't it a fact that you heard from Andy or otherwise there had been some trouble between Ruby and that man?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe there was something said about trouble.
Mr. HUBERT. Isn't it a fact that you heard that Ruby pistol-whipped him?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I can't recall of ever hearing that statement.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear that this boy was Jewish?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir. I had no idea; no knowledge of him.
Mr. HUBERT. You never met him?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I understand that there came a time when you asked Jack to put you on a different pay basis than you originally were.
Mr. CRAFARD. When I went to work it was on the understanding that I eventually

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would be with him a little while and then I would start being on a salary.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long were you with him? Well, let me put it this way: Did there come a time when you began to ask to be put on salary?
Mr. CPAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long after?
Mr. CRAFARD. Because I felt that the way things were, I didn't have any private life of my own. He wanted to tell me what I could do, who I could talk to, and who I couldn't talk to if he put me on a salary where I was maybe making $35 or $40 a week I could live on my own, which I would much prefer to do.
Mr. GRIFFIN. $35 or $40 plus the opportunity to live at the club?
Mr. CRAFARD. As long as it was $35 or $40, period. I could live on my own; for the work I done at the club, I could live on my own.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. How long had you been with Jack before you started to ask him about this?
Mr. CRAFARD. I probably had been with him about 4 or 5 weeks. That was about 2 weeks before President Kennedy was assassinated.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did Jack say when you mentiond that to him?
Mr. CRAFARD. He said he would see what he could do.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What do you mean by that? What did you understand by that?
Mr. CRAFARD. Well, he said what he could do; he would figure his bookwork out and see what he could do.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you remind him of the fact that he had told you that at the beginning?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
(Whereupon, at 12:10 p.m., the proceeding recessed.)

--------------------------

TESTIMONY OF CURTIS L. CRAFARD RESUMED

The proceeding reconvened at 1:30 p.m.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, Mr. Crafard, this is a continuation of the deposition which was recessed for the lunch hour. You understand that we are continuing this deposition by the same authority that we commenced it with, and likewise that you are under the same oath that you were under and that you took at the beginning of that deposition?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Is that agreeable to you?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, when did you first hear that the President was going to visit Dallas?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was about 3 or 4 weeks before he came to Dallas. It was advertised in the paper.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you working for Ruby at that time?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir; it came out in the papers that showed the proposed route and the proposed secondary route of this trip through the city.
Mr. HUBERT. Are you saying that the first time you found out that he, President Kennedy, was going to visit the city, was when you read it in the newspapers?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. And that in that account that you read in the newspapers, the proposed route and an alternate route was given?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. That would have been just a very few days before he actually came, wouldn't it?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that was at least a week before he came that that came out.
Mr. HUBERT. At any rate, whatever day the proposed route came out in the papers that was the first day that you found out that the President was coming to Dallas at all?
Mr. CRAFARD. They had been thinking he was going to come to Dallas. They

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said something about it, but there was nothing definite at that time, I didn't know anything definite about it until I read it in the paper.
Mr. HUBERT. You had read something in the paper about his coming prior to the time that the route was set out?
Mr. CRAFARD. There was something in the paper about it figured he would come or something but so far as I can recall there was nothing definite until that same issue.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, did you ever talk to Ruby about it?
Mr. CRAFARD. No. There wasn't much said about it in the club.
Mr. HUBERT. Was anything said about it?
Mr. CRAFARD. Something the day the paper came out with the proposed route, we all said something about the fact that he was coming to town, Dallas, that it would probably help Dallas a little bit.
Mr. HUBERT. Help in what way?
Mr. CRAFARD. Maybe bring a few more conventions or something.
Mr. HUBERT. Who said that?
Mr. CRAFARD. We all discussed it, Andy and Jack and I.
Mr. HUBERT. Including Ruby?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember specifically a conference, or conversation, rather, of which there were three, at least, Jack Ruby and Andy Armstrong, at which it was mentioned that it was a good thing for Dallas because it would bring more conventions?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was in the paper, when Jack came to the club we already had the paper there and Jack came to the club and he read the paper and said something about it and then he said something to the effect that it might help Dallas a little bit because it might bring more conventions to Dallas, or something to that effect.
Mr. HUBERT. That was the day that the paper came out with the route?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Had you talked to Ruby about the President's visit prior to that day?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I can recall.
Mr. HUBERT. Had you talked to anyone else?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I recall.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn't let me finish my question. Had you talked to anyone else about the fact that the President might be coming to Dallas?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't recall anything about it, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. When you say there was no conversation in the club about it other than what you have testified to----
Mr. CRAFARD. None that I can recall.
Mr. HUBERT. Was any mention made of the fact that in any conversation between you and Jack or anybody else about the fact that the parade would pass near the club?
Mr. CRAFARD. There was something said that we only have to walk a block, I think, or something like that, up where we could see the parade.
Mr. HUBERT. Who said that?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't remember whether it was Andy or myself.
Mr. HUBERT. Could it have been Ruby?
Mr. CRAFARD. It might have been. I don't know.
Mr. HUBERT. In any case, either you or Andy made such a remark, and was Jack present when it was made?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he was; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You have a distinct recollection of that?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't have a distinct recollection; no.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it on the same occasion that you mentioned earlier that he came in and said about how it would improve the business?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was the day before the President's trip, arrival in Dallas, Andy and I had been saying something about wanting to see it and some one of us said something about it was only about a block or something like that to go to see it.

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Mr. HUBERT. Did you ask Jack's permission to leave to go watch it?
Mr. CRAFARD. I think we both told Jack that we was going to go watch it.
Mr. HUBERT. You and Andy did?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I believe so.
Mr. HUBERT. Together?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; we didn't figure on going. Andy was taking the day off so he could go and I told Jack I was figuring going on up and watching the parade.
Mr. HUBERT. What did he say about it?
Mr. CRAFARD. He didn't say anything.
Mr. HUBERT. What?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't recall him saying anything.
Mr. HUBERT. You were asking him----
Mr. CRAFARD. Other than maybe telling me it was all right to go or something.
Mr. HUBERT. That is what I was wondering. Did he express any consent or disapproval?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't recall what he said.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he mention what he was going to do about watching it?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I recall.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you tell him where you were going to watch it, yourself?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. HUBERT. You recall, of course, the day that the President was shot.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall the night before that, which would have been Thursday night?
Mr. CRAFARD. As far as I can recall it was more or less a general night for the club.
Mr. HUBERT. Were there any special preparations by way of preparing for a larger crowd or for some program in connection with the President's visit?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I can recall.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, the night prior to the President's visit was a routine night?
Mr. CRAFARD. As far as I can recall.
Mr. HUBERT. I suppose you have put your mind to it since, particularly at the time it happened, because most people did, you know. They relate that historic event to their own lives and reconstruct what they were doing before and afterwards.
Did you do that? Have you ever done that?
Mr. CRAFARD. I have tried to think of what I was doing before, the night before, a couple nights before, or something like that. I don't recall anything out of the ordinary.
Mr. HUBERT. If it was the ordinary, then I suppose it would have been that the club were closed up at its usual hour.
Mr. CRAFARD. As far as I recall, yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And you were still sleeping there?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I was still sleeping there.
Mr. HUBERT. So you would have gone to sleep?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. And then I suppose Ruby would have wakened you?
Mr. CRAFARD. Andy woke me that morning. He come in early. Andy always put the beer in and he come in early to do that so that he could have the rest of the day off.
Mr. HUBERT. What time did Andy come in?
Mr. CRAFARD. I think it was about 9:30 or something like that.
Mr. HUBERT. Came in personally?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. He was there when the President was shot.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you asleep when he came in?
Mr. CRAFARD. I was asleep when he came in.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you waken up when he came in?
Mr. CRAFARD. I didn't wake up---Andy woke me up and told me that the President had been shot.

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Mr. HUNT. That was much later in the day, wasn't it?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so.
Mr. HUBERT. About 12:30?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Weren't you suppose to be doing your cleaning-up job?
Mr. CRAFARD. Ordinarily if I had been up, I would have been cleaning up; yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Ordinarily he would have awakened you when he came in, wouldn't he?
Mr. CRAFARD. Andy, when he came in he should have woke me up. I guess he said he had called me or something and I hadn't woke up, I hadn't got up or something.
Mr. HUBERT. Didn't he know you wanted to go and see the parade?
Mr. CRAFARD. He knew I said something about it I don't know, I think maybe he had been down and saw us--down to see some of it or something and then come back to the club or something.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn't leave word for anyone to call you to see the parade?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Wasn't it unusual for you to sleep that length of time?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not if I was tired and they didn't call me, I'd sleep if they didn't call me.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever done that before?
Mr. CRAFARD. I've seen the time when I went to sleep and slept 14 or 15 hours.
Mr. HUBERT. No, I am talking about while you were at the club.
Mr. CRAFARD. At the club a couple times I slept until 1:30 or 2 o'clock in the afternoon before somebody woke me up.
Mr. HUBERT. You had made no plans yourself to anticipate going to see the President?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not definite plans except if I got up I figured I'd go down and see it.
Mr. HUBERT. And you intended to get up?
Mr. CRAFARD. I figured I'd wake up. I didn't wake up.
Mr. HUBERT. What time did you go to bed, do you know?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't know, about 2:30 or 3 o'clock, or something.
Mr. HUBERT. You slept clean around until 12:30 or after?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. How do you know Andy came in earlier?
Mr. CRAFARD. The beer was all taken care of, so I figured he had been in the club.
Mr. HUBERT. You are not sure it was Andy that did that, then?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Put the beer on?
Mr. CRAFARD. Andy said something about doing it, he had done it earlier, or something.
Mr. HUBERT. Was the beer normally delivered at a regular time?
Mr. CRAFARD. We had the beer delivered 2 days a week. Andy come in every day and put the beer in the cooler.
Mr. HUBERT. Where was the beer delivered?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was delivered upstairs when it was delivered.
Mr. HUBERT. Did somebody have to receive it?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. When was it delivered that day, do you know?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was delivered on Tuesdays and Saturdays, I believe it was.
Mr. HUBERT. It wasn't delivered on this day, then?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, but he come up to put more beer in the cooler.
Mr. HUBERT. That was his job?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. He done that all the time.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn't have anything to do with it?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where would he carry the beer from, from what place to where?
Mr. CRAFARD. It would come in the front door of the club, there was a hallway

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off to the side here and come on over here and made an L. My room was here and he'd get the beer over here and take it out.
Mr. HUBERT. He had to pass your room?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. He had to pass by it?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. He would come in the back of the club where the beer was stored?
Mr. CRAFARD. Probably he'd come in the front door and go up here and get the beer. My room was down here on this corner, and he would get the beer here.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you leave the door open or closed?
Mr. CRAFARD. My door was closed.
Mr. HUBERT. Why was it closed?
Mr. CRAFARD. I closed it all the time.
Mr. HUBERT. Weren't you supposed to be sort of on guard, as it were, in addition to doing the job around there, that is part of your job having someone on the premises?
Mr. CRAFARD. I just figured having me sleep there, I guess. He never said anything to me about it.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he ever awaken you on other days when he brought the beer?
Mr. CRAFARD. If Andy came in when I was still in bed he'd usually wake me up, yes.
Mr. HUBERT. But he did not this morning?
Mr. CRAFARD. He said he called me but I hadn't woke up.
Mr. HUBERT. He called you by telephone or in person?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't know whether he called me by telephone, he said he tried to call me by telephone or called me when he come to the club or what.
Mr. HUBERT. If he called you by telephone where would the telephone have been in reference to your room?
Mr. CRAFARD. In the room next to my room.
Mr. HUBERT. Could you hear it?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Had you ever been awakened before by it?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, several times.
Mr. HUBERT. There is no doubt then that if he had called you by telephone it would have awakened you?
Mr. CRAFARD. More likely I figured it would have, yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Of course if he had tried to wake you by calling you, just through the door, that would have awakened you, I assume.
Mr. CRAFARD. I might have roused up, spoke to him and answered him and then got back down without even knowing it.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember that?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't remember it. I say I might have.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When did he tell you that he called you?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was shortly after he did wake me up.
Mr. HUBERT. How did he wake you up?
Mr. CRAFARD. He come in there and he had his radio up real loud when he come in there and he told me the President had been shot.
Mr. HUBERT. And that was at what time?
Mr. CRAFARD. He called me two or three times. It was just after the President had been shot.
Mr. HUBERT. How many times did he call you? You said two or three times?
Mr. CRAFARD. He called me two or three times at that time when he woke me up there he called me two or three times.
Mr. HUBERT. How do you know that?
Mr. CRAFARD. He said so.
Mr. HUBERT. You don't recall it two or three times?
Mr. CRAFARD. I recall hearing him call me twice that I know of right then.
Mr. HUBERT. And then that aroused you?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

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Mr. HUBERT. Had you been drinking the night before?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I recall.
Mr. HUBERT. What I am trying to get at, Larry, is why it was so difficult to wake you that morning.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I can understand that.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you any explanation for it?
Mr. CRAFARD. None that I can think of except that I probably was a little tired, except a little tired from the night before when I went to bed.
Mr. HUBERT. You do recall that?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I went to bed and went right to sleep. I didn't lie awake very long.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you normally lay awake sometimes?
Mr. CRAFARD. I normally lay awake anywhere from an hour and a half to 2 hours.
Mr. HUBERT. But this particular night you did not?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. You weren't drinking?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, not that I can recall.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you drink much?
Mr. CRAFARD. Very seldom. I drank, I think, three or four different times while I was there that I drank a beer or two, that was all.
Mr. HUBERT. So that your heavy sleep on the morning of the 22d couldn't be attributed to the fact that you had a hangover?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Or that you were suffering from any overindulgence in alcohol?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. You don't take any kind of sleeping pills or anything like that?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. So this was just normal sleep?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And his call failed to wake you?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. What did he tell you when he first came in?
Mr. CRAFARD. The first thing he said was President Kennedy had been shot. He said, "The President has been shot." I wouldn't hardly believe him.
Mr. HUBERT. What did you do?
Mr. CRAFARD. Immediately we went in and turned the television on. He had his radio going and I turned the television on and listened to his radio and then we had to turn the television up real loud where we could hear it. We were more interested in what was said than the pictures they was showing or anything like that.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember what time it was?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was something like----
Mr. HUBERT. I mean first of all when he woke you up.
Mr. CRAFARD. 20 or 25 to 12.
Mr. HUBERT. To 12?
Mr. CRAFARD. Or after 12, to 1, I mean. I think it was something like that. I'm not sure. I didn't have a watch on. I didn't have a watch at that time.
Mr. HUBERT. You began looking at the television. I suppose from the time that you woke up plus the time it took you to get dressed, or did you get dressed?
Mr. CRAFARD. As soon as he woke me up he went in and turned the television on while I was putting my pants on, putting my clothes on.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember what was the first thing you saw on television?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't remember, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it a news commentator?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember which one?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I don't.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the station it was on?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don't remember what station it was on, either.
It was one of the local--I believe it was 12 that Dallas-Fort Worth--I believe that was the station.

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Mr. HUBERT. It was a Dallas station or a Fort Worth station?
Mr. CRAFARD. It is one there they call the Dallas-Fort Worth, WWTV12, I think it is.
Mr. HUBERT. KLRD, is that what it is?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't know what station it is. I am not sure whether it was WWTV.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you stay there watching?
Mr. CRAFARD. We turned it up real loud where we could hear it and then listened to his radio, too, where we would hear both of them.
Mr. HUBERT. Go ahead, what happened next?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't recall exactly what was said except the fact that the President had been shot.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you continue to watch it?
Mr. CRAFARD. We watched it right up until--most of the day, I think, we had the television on there, then, most of the day.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you do any of your work?
Mr. CRAFARD. Oh, I started to clean up. When Jack come in he said not to. He said, "We're going to close the club for the weekend."
Mr. HUBERT. What time did he come in?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was about 2 or 2:30, something like that.
Mr. HUBERT. About 2 hours after, do you think?
Mr. CRAFARD. About that; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us what happened, how he looked, what he said and all that, when he came in?
Mr. CRAFARD. He was like everybody else, shocked.
Mr. HUBERT. How did he manifest that shock?
Mr. CRAFARD. How is that?
Mr. HUBERT. How did he manifest the shock? What did he do or say that gave you the impression that he was suffering from shock like everybody else?
Mr. CRAFARD. About the same thing as any of us said. We couldn't really believe it.
Mr. HUBERT. Was he crying, for example?
Mr. CRAFARD. He seemed to be very nervous. As far as really being crying, I couldn't say for sure he had been crying. He wasn't crying at the time, anyway.
Mr. HUBERT. Was his nervousness, or his shock greater than, say, that which you could observe in Armstrong?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I believe it was. He was much nervouser than Andy or I, either one was.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, how did that come across to you, by what he said or did?
Mr. CRAFARD. It come across that it struck him pretty deep that Kennedy had been assassinated, had been shot.
Mr. HUBERT. You see you have to get that impression from him in one of two ways. Either he said something or he did things, and that is what I want to find out, what he said or he did that creates an impression that now remains in your mind as being one of more shock than anybody else, and as you put it, extreme nervousness. You don't get that impression except what you saw or you heard.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now that is what I want to find out, because it is one thing to have your impression but it is another thing to have what caused your impression.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. He couldn't believe it had happened.
Mr. HUBERT. He said so?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What else did he do that was out of the ordinary?
Mr. CRAFARD. I was trying to think.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he cry? You said a moment ago he did not.
Mr. CRAFARD. He said it was an outrageous crime, that it would ruin the city of Dallas.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he say why, in what way it would ruin it?
Mr. CRAFARD. The fact that the President had been shot there in Dallas.
Mr. HUBERT. Would ruin it how?

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Mr. CRAFARD. As far as nightclubs, nightclub activity was concerned, for all nightclubs concerned, it would pretty well pull a lot of the conventions away, and such as that.
Mr. HUBERT. So that when Ruby came back and expressed his concern about the shooting of the President, he adverted to the fact that that crime would hurt Dallas?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Would hurt the convention business and would hurt his business?
Mr. CRAFARD. He just said all nightclubs. He said the nightclub business in general, I believe, more than his personal business.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he specifically advert to how that would affect the Carousel and the Vegas?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I can recall.
Andy and I both, I believe it was myself that made the statement that the guy, whoever had done that, had ought to hang, or something to that effect. and we was all pretty much in agreement on that subject. Our agreement on that was about the same.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, in this conference, I call it conference, I mean meeting that you and Andy and Jack had together, which commenced about 2 hours after the President's assassination, you discussed the fact that it was a terrible crime, that it would hurt the city and the nightclub business and that the man who did it ought to be punished?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And Jack was a part of that?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; we was all pretty much in agreement on that. We agreed to the fact it would----
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know at that time who had done it or who was suspected of having done it?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that earlier on the news, or something, I believe they suspected Oswald.
Mr. HUBERT. Had he been mentioned by name?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he had; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. That was prior to the time Ruby came in?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so, I'm not definite on that, but I believe so.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, Ruby came in, you are quite sure, about 2 hours after you heard of it?
Mr. CRAFARD. About 2 hours, yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And you heard of it at a little after 12:30?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; just shortly after it happened.
Mr. HUBERT. So Jack told you that there is no use cleaning up?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. He said, "We're going to close the club for the weekend."
Mr. HUBERT. What did he propose to do about the cleaning up job as to the club?
Mr. CRAFARD. Just leave it go until Monday.
Mr. HUBERT. Just let it stay as it was until Monday?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And he so told you?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Had he made up his mind at that time to close the club for the entire weekend?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he just said for Friday and Saturday night at that time. He said something about cleaning up later on, or something, and then he come back later and he left.
Mr. HUBERT. Let's see, how long did he stay, before we get to this point?
Mr. CRAFARD. He was there maybe a half hour or 45 minutes.
Mr. HUBERT. What else did he do there besides converse with you as you have already testified?
Mr. CRAFARD. That was about it right there, I guess.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he make any phone calls?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he called his sister. I'm not sure.

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Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember that, yourself, or do you think perhaps you picked that up from reading about it somewhere?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I believe that he called his sister on the phone right by the front door.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean that is the public phone?
Mr. CRAFARD. No. We had three business phones on the same line in the club.
Mr. HUBERT. The same number, you mean?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, with the same number.
Mr. HUBERT. But there were different lines, you could make different calls from them?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. There was one phone with three extensions then?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Two extensions?
Mr. CRAFARD. Two extensions.
Mr. HUBERT. Was there a public phone there, too?
Mr. CRAFARD. The public phone was in the back in the hallway. I believe he called his sister from the front door phone there and talked to her and he told her he was coming over, or something.
Mr. HUBERT. You overheard that?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was either at that time or later in the afternoon when he come back.
Mr. HUBERT. On that first time that he was there, which was from 2:30 to about 3:15--would that be a fair estimate?
Mr. CRAFARD. About 3:15 or 3:30, or something.
Mr. HUBERT. Let's do this. You mentioned a moment ago that he came in about 2:30 and stayed about a half hour to three-quarters of an hour. He came at 2:30 and left at about 3:30.
Then there is a possibility he stayed there an hour on his first visit.
Mr. CRAFARD. He might have been there anywhere between a half hour and three-quarters of an hour.
Mr. HUBERT. Anyway, roughly between 3 and 3:30 is when he left?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And during that period he made one phone call, or you are not sure of that?
Mr. CRAFARD. I am not positive. I think he did, but I am not positive.
Mr. HUBERT. If it should turn out that he did not call his sister on that occasion, do you recall any other phone calls that he made during ths first visit?
Mr. CRAFARD. I'm not sure. It seems like there was a phone call to his brother or something that he called long distance either then or later in the day or something.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you know he had called long distance?
Mr. CRAFARD. Because he had me get the address, get the number or something. He had me give him the phone number.
Mr. HUBERT. Of which brother?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was the brother in Chicago--in Detroit, the Cobo Laundry.
Mr. HUBERT. You are talking about Earl, aren't you?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that is right.
Mr. HUBERT. He did not have Earl's number?
Mr. CRAFARD. He had it, he had it in his book at home, and I had it wrote down in the book of phone numbers there in the office.
Mr. HUBERT. And you then gave him the number, or dialed for him?
Mr. CRAFARD. I gave it to him, I believe, and he dialed it.
Mr. HUBERT. You were present when he dialed?
Mr. CRAFARD. Andy and I were both there in the main part of the club where he was at.
Mr. HUBERT. There was no one else in the club at that time?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; just Andy and I.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know why he didn't use his office phone?

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Mr. CRAFARD. No; I have no idea, except that during the day when there was nobody else there he would more frequently use the front phone than he would the office phone. We'd been out there talking. We could all three--he'd have the table space to work and everything, count his money out, figure out the papers, and everything.
Mr. HUBERT. You are unable to fix the time of that call to his brother, is that right?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. When did he come back after having left at, roughly, between 3 and 3:30?
Mr. CRAFARD. He come back about, I believe, about 4:30 or 5 o'clock.
Mr. HUBERT. Is it fair to say that he was gone about an hour to an hour and a half?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I would say so. He asked me if I wanted to go to his sister's with him. He made quite a point of it, and I told him I'd prefer to stay at the club.
Mr. HUBERT. What do you mean by making quite a point of it?
Mr. CRAFARD. He asked me two or three times about it.
Mr. HUBERT. Did it strike you as odd?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; it just struck me as if he kind of wanted me to go. He thought it wouldn't be--didn't think it would be very good for me to stay there at the club by myself.
Mr. HUBERT. Why not?
Mr. CRAFARD. I have no idea.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you that he thought----
Mr. CRAFARD. He said he thought it would be better for me to go with him than to stay at the club.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ask him why he had such thought?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I didn't. I didn't think about it.
Mr. HUBERT. What did you think of the nature of that remark to you?
Mr. CRAFARD. It didn't have no effect on me whatsoever at the time.
Mr. HUBERT. You had stayed at the club alone before, hadn't you?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Didn't you think it rather odd that he would suggest in some way that it wouldn't be proper for you to stay at the club?
Mr. CRAFARD. At that time it didn't strike me at all. I didn't even think about it. I was still pretty shook up, myself.
Mr. HUBERT. Had you been doing any work in the interval when he was gone?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; not that I can recall.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he make any phone calls when he came back?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he called his sister at that time. I'm not positive, but I believe he called her at that time and told her he'd be right over.
Mr. HUBERT. When did he leave after having returned?
Mr. CRAFARD. He was only there for about 10 or 15, maybe 20 minutes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he call his sister twice?
Mr. CRAFARD. He called her then, I'm almost positive that he called her that time and told her he'd be right over.
I told him that I'd prefer to stay at the club because, well, I knew his sister was highly emotional from what little I had talked to her on the telephone a couple of times, she called for Jack and she always seemed very nervous on the phone and everything.
Mr. HUBERT. As I understand you now, it is quite clear that he did call his sister Eva?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. When he came back the second time?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I'm almost positive.
Mr. HUBERT. That is when he stayed about 10 minutes?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. He left about 4:30 or 5, right?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Having stayed there only 10 minutes, whatever time he did come?

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Mr. CRAFARD. He stayed only 10 or 15 minutes. He hadn't been there very long.
Mr. HUBERT. From the time that you first heard of the President's death until he left that second time to go to his sister's, had he called his sister once or twice?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that was the second time he called her that day, I'm not positive.
Mr. HUBERT. So that the first call must have been through the first, during the first visit, mustn't it?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I believe so, because he only made the one phone call when he came back the last time.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, with relation to the call to his brother, is your memory fresh now as to whether that call was made during his first visit between 2:30 and 3 o'clock, 2:30 and 3:30, or on his second visit when he stayed 10 minutes?
Mr. CRAFARD. That was made on the first visit, I'm almost positive of that. I can only recall of one phone call he made and that was to his sister when he come back the second time.
Mr. HUBERT. He was there only 10 minutes, he called her and he asked you several times?
Mr. CRAFARD. He asked me two or three times to go with him and I told him I'd rather not because she was highly nervous and I didn't care to be around her. I hardly never----
Mr. HUBERT. What did he say to you about being worried about your staying at the club?
Mr. CRAFARD. He just thought it would be better for me to be with somebody than to be by myself, I guess, because I was shook up, kind of shook up about what had happened.
Mr. HUBERT. How were you showing that? I mean, what manifestations.
Mr. CRAFARD. I guess more or less a look in my face, or something.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he seem to indicate that he feared for your safety?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; not that I can recall.
Mr. HUBERT. But what you are telling us is that at the time you had no reaction whatsoever to that suggestion of his that it would be better for you not to stay at the club?
Mr. CRAFARD. I had no reaction at all to it.
Mr. HUBERT. You don't know whether he meant your safety or your own personal feelings or really what he meant?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn't ask him what he meant?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. So he just then openly allowed you to stay on?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Was Armstrong still there during that time?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; Andy--I was alone at the club.
Mr. HUBERT. When did Andy leave?
Mr. CRAFARD. Andy left just shortly after Jack had left the first time.
Mr. HUBERT. About what, 5 or 10 minutes after?
Mr. CRAFARD. About maybe 10 or 15 minutes later. When Jack was there the second time before he left, he give me a sign, he told me to make up a sign that said we'd be closed Friday and Saturday, put it downstairs about 6:30.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you do so?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you do it in pencil or pen?
Mr. CRAFARD. I made it with pencil and put it downstairs.
Mr. HUBERT. Was that before or after he asked you to----
Mr. CRAFARD. That was after he left the second time.
Mr. HUBERT. No; you misunderstood my question. Did he ask you to make that sign before or after he asked you to go to Eva's with him?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that was afterwards, after the first stay there at the club.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he give you any instructions as to what to do?

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Mr. CRAFARD. Make up a sign that we'd be closed. He had a closed sign. He said, "Take it down there and put it downstairs about 7:30 or quarter to eight", and he said, "Wait until the other clubs open. Let them"--he said, I think it was, "Let them damn guys stay open", or something to that effect, quite similar to the wording there, I'm not sure what the wording was, that wording was.
Mr. HUBERT. He got over to you, though, that he was going to close, that he wanted you to prepare and put up a sign, but to do it in such a way that his competitors wouldn't know he was anticipating that?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you so in so many words?
Mr. CRAFARD. He said, wait until they opened before I put it up. He said something like "Let those damn fools open if they want", or something to that effect, or "Stay open", or something like that.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he give you any other instructions?
Mr. CRAFARD. That was about it. He asked me where I was going to eat and I told him and he said something about he'd call me in about an hour. He said to go ahead and eat then and he said "I'll call you in about an hour."
So he called me---I don't even remember what he said then. It was just I guess he asked me if there had been any phone calls-or something. It wasn't much. The conversation wasn't but about a dozen words at most.
Mr. HUBERT. Had there been any phone calls?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; not while I was at the club. I waited until about 30 minutes after he left and then I went to eat.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you eat?
Mr. CRAFARD. To the drugstore, Walgreen Drugstore.
Mr. HUBERT. You ate alone?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You came back to the club?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; that's right.
Mr. HUBERT. What time was it when you got back?
Mr. CRAFARD. It must have been about 6:20 or 6:30, something like that, I guess--a little later.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you next hear from Ruby or see him?
Mr. CRAFARD. I never saw him again until the next morning. He called me from Eva's, talked with me for a few minutes, about an hour after he left. I just got back from eating.
Mr. HUBERT. How do you know he was at Eva's?
Mr. CRAFARD. He said he was at Eva's, and then I could hear her voice. They was watching on television.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the subject of that conversation?
Mr. CRAFARD. So far as I can recall, he just asked me if there had been any calls, as far as I can recall.
Mr. HUBERT. And you simply told him no?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he ask you about the sign?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I told him I had it ready and he made sure, he told me again what time not to put it up until after about 7:30 or a quarter to eight.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did that conversation last?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was just a very few minutes. It couldn't have been more than two dozen words spoken at the most.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he give you any indication as to what his plans were?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he say anything about going to church?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I can recall. I think he said something about I could reach him at Eva's if I needed him for anything, I think he said.
Mr. HUBERT. And this you think was between 6:15 and 6:30, or long in there?
Mr. CRAFARD. I prefer to say between 6:30 and 7.
Mr. HUBERT. What did you do with the rest of the day?
Mr. CRAFARD. I stayed at the club and watched it on television.
Mr. HUBERT. You were alone?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Nobody else came at all?

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Mr. CRAFARD. No. The door was locked downstairs, nobody could get up.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you put up the sign?
Mr. CRAFARD. I waited until about a quarter to eight before I put up the sign.
Mr. HUBERT. Were the other clubs open?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe they were closed too. I am not sure. I am not positive about that.
Mr. HUBERT. Any phone calls come at all the rest of the evening?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I recall.
Mr. HUBERT. You were there alone that night?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You just watched television until you went to bed?
Mr. CRAFARD. I watched television for quite a while. I watched television most of the afternoon. It seemed like the more I watched it, the worse it made me feel, in a way, so I just quit watching it. I had a couple of books there and I read most of the afternoon and the evening.
Mr. HUBERT. What time did you go to bed?
Mr. CRAFARD. I must have went to bed probably about 9 or 9:30, something like that.
Mr. HUBERT. And there were no phone calls?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I can recall. I believe there was--about midnight I believe it was, there was a call. I don't even know why this girl called. I don't even know why she called. I talked to her for a few minutes and then I took the phone out of the office. It had a big long cord on it and I carried it in by my bed. I stretched out on the bed and we talked for quite a long time.
Mr. HUBERT. Who was the girl?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't even remember her name. I had never met her before or ever heard from her again.
Mr. HUBERT. Who did she say she was?
Mr. CRAFARD. She give me her name. I don't remember what her name was.
Mr. HUBERT. What did she say her business was, why did she call?
Mr. CRAFARD. I think she said something about wanting a job with the club or something.
Mr. HUBERT. It was not a girl that worked at the club in any way?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; she was not connected with the club.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you think she did identify herself?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I know she identified herself.
Mr. HUBERT. But you don't remember who she was?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. You had never seen her before?
Mr. CRAFARD. No. I had never met the girl.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn't recognize the name?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you recognize the voice?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. As far as you could say then this was a complete stranger to you?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you speak to her?
Mr. CRAFARD. Oh, we must have talked altogether for about an hour, an hour and a half, and then hung up, and about 15 or 20 minutes she called back and talked for a couple of hours.
Mr. HUBERT. Now you talked to this girl for a total of about 3 hours that night?
Mr. CRAFARD. That's right.
Mr. HUBERT. What was it all about?
Mr. CRAFARD. Just more or less talking, getting acquainted. More than anything over the phone, the best I could.
Mr. HUBERT. Did she indicate where she was?
Mr. CRAFARD. She was baby sitting for a friend of hers. She give me to understand she was to catch a bus out of town the next morning, about 5:30.
Mr. HUBERT. In the course of the conversation did you try to find out why she had called the Carousel?

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Mr. CRAFARD. She called, she said, to start with, when we first started talking, she had called to find out about a job in the club. I don't know why she done it that way--that is what she said, as far as I can recall.
Mr. HUBERT. Was she aware that the President was dead?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I believe we discussed that a little bit too. I don't recall what was said.
Mr. HUBERT. The first time you spoke to her, you said it was about midnight--right?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You had been asleep?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe I had just started dozing off when the phone rang.
Mr. HUBERT. And you spoke to her then about an hour?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I believe I'm not sure I think Little Lynn called.
Mr. HUBERT. What time did she call?
Mr. CRAFARD. Just the one time that I can recall.
Mr. HUBERT. What time?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that was about 9:30 or 10 o'clock.
Mr. HUBERT. What did she say?
Mr. CRAFARD. After I laid down.
Mr. HUBERT. What did she want?
Mr. CRAFARD. She wanted to talk to Jack.
Mr. HUBERT. Did she tell you what about?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; she just said it was urgent. I believe I told her Jack was at Eva's and give her Eva's number.
Mr. HUBERT. Where was she?
Mr. CRAFARD. She was at her home in Fort Worth, as I understood.
Mr. HUBERT. Is that a long-distance call?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Any other workers, waitresses or girls come in that night?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, none. Jack had had Andy call all of them to tell them not to come in.
Mr. HUBERT. Now when you ended the conversation with this girl that began about midnight, was there an arrangement for one or the other of you to call up again in a few minutes?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I told her I'd like to talk to her again. I told her I'd like to meet her. I told her I'd like to get acquainted with her. I tried to get her to talk a little longer. She said she had to hang up. And then she called me back 15 or 20 minutes later.
Mr. HUBERT. And then you continued to talk for a couple of hours?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. How did that end up?
Mr. CRAFARD. Some one of the younger kids there woke up or something.
Mr. HUBERT. Had you made any arrangement to meet her, to see her?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; no definite arrangements. I tried to get her to tell me what bus station she was leaving out of. She wouldn't even tell me what bus station she was leaving out of. I told her I'd meet her before she caught the bus, but she wouldn't tell me where she was leaving.
Mr. HUBERT. This conversation in fact, Larry, was kind of a love making on the phone deal, wasn't it?
Mr. CRAFARD. More or less what you might say an attempt.
Mr. HUBERT. And part of that attempt of course would be trying to find out who she was and where you could meet her, wouldn't it?
Mr. CRAFARD. Who she was and where I could meet her at her likes and her dislikes, such as that.
Mr. HUBERT. She wouldn't tell you any of that?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, she wouldn't tell me where I could meet her at or anything, but other than we really talked as if we known each other for months, actually.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn't write down her name, Larry?
Mr. CRAFARD. I think I wrote her name down, but I never could get her phone number.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you write it down?

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Mr. CRAFARD. I believe I wrote it down in that notebook I had. I'm not sure. I don't have her name now. I never had her name after I left Texas, I know that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you recognize that name in the notebook?
Mr. CRAFARD. I'm not even sure of that.
Mr. HUBERT. We will have an opportunity.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did she sound like a young girl? How old a person was she?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe she said she was 19, 18 or 19 years old.
Mr. HUBERT. She told you, didn't she, that she had to be at the bus station at 5 o'clock?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was 5, 5:30 or 6 o'clock.
Mr. HUBERT. There is only one bus station there, isn't there?
Mr. CRAFARD. Two bus stations, Trailways and Greyhound.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you find out which one?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. She wouldn't tell you that?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did she tell you what time the bus was going to leave?
Mr. CRAFARD. I think she said something about she had to leave where she was at 5:30 or 6 o'clock to catch the bus.
Mr. HUBERT. To catch the bus?
Mr. CRAFARD. To catch the bus.
Mr. HUBERT. To go where?
Mr. CRAFARD. I think she said she was going to Chicago.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you try to find out what buses from either station were leaving around that time?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I didn't call the bus depots or anything. I wasn't that interested in it.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, you were interested enough in her to talk with her for 3 hours. I wondered if you weren't interested enough to find out if you couldn't meet her by going to one of the bus stations.
Mr. CRAFARD. She talked--she was leaving town and didn't figure on being back for quite a little while.
Mr. HUBERT. When did she tell you that?
Mr. CRAFARD. Shortly after we started--I believe just shortly before we finished the conversation I started to find out where to meet her at.
Mr. HUBERT. Which was it? What killed your interest? Is that what you are trying to tell us?
Mr. CRAFARD. I figured she was leaving town, there wasn't no sense in going to too much trouble to try and meet her if she was leaving town and wasn't figuring on being back.
First, she talked like she was going to be gone for the weekend, and then just shortly before we finished the conversation, she give me to understand that she would be gone on a prolonged, for a prolonged period of time.
Mr. HUBERT. So this girl then, who was going for a long period of time, you suggest was willing to talk with you for 3 hours and the conversation, the general tenor of which was sort of love making on the phone, as it were?
Mr. CRAFARD. As you would put it; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you find out or try to find out her phone number?
Mr. CRAFARD. I asked for her--I tried to get her phone number where she was at. I tried to get her home phone number. I tried to get her address. She wouldn't.
Mr. HUBERT. She wouldn't give you any of that?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you give us any idea what subject you could possibly have talked about for that length of time?
Mr. CRAFARD. Mostly we discussed our different hobbies, our likes and dislikes. Like I say, the conversation was more as if we had known each other for 2 or 3 weeks or better.
Mr. HUBERT. You must have made more than one effort to try to get her phone number and her address.
Mr. CRAFARD. Several times I tried.

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Mr. HUBERT. What reason did she ascribe for not giving it to you?
Mr. CRAFARD. She said she was at a neighbor's place. She was babysitting for some friends of hers.
Mr. HUBERT. Yes; but you had asked her for her home address as well?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Her home phone?
Mr. CRAFARD. She just wouldn't give me any reason for not giving me her home phone number that I can recall.
Mr. HUBERT. Let's see, that means that she was a person who was going out of town and did not want to talk to you any more, and didn't want to give you her number.
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. Or where you could reach her?
Mr. CRAFARD. That's right.
Mr. HUBERT. But she spoke to you for 3 hours?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Larry, when she called did she ask for anyone in particular?
Mr. CRAFARD. She asked if it was the Carousel.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And then what did she say?
Mr. CRAFARD. And I said yes, and I asked her if there was something I could do for her. I believe she said she had called in answer to an ad in the paper.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there an ad in the paper?
Mr. CRAFARD. Ruby continuously run an ad for girls. After I got to talking to her--it's kind of funny as all get-out-- getting ready to leave town the next morning and then calling in in response to this ad.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it you got the impression after talking with her for a while that she really hadn't called in response to that ad.
Mr. CRAFARD. I got the impression she was kind of a kook, in a way. I have known of girls to do this, call up strange people and talk to them as long as the person will talk to them.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you do that too?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I have never done that, not that way.
Mr. HUBERT. So it was not your normal way of doing?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. And it was the middle of the night, Larry?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. Why do you think you did that?
Mr. CRAFARD. Just talked to her, somebody to talk to. I wasn't sleepy. Somebody to talk to more than anything.
Mr. HUBERT. You see the point--that that would be a story that would be much easier to accept if the time element was not present.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I understand.
Mr. HUBERT. You must admit it is rather extraordinary for two strangers to speak as long as you did on two separate occasions when apparently there was no particular purpose about it, and no particular future to it.
Mr. CRAFARD. I can't explain it.
Mr. HUBERT. Did she indicate that she was somebody with the Carousel operation, what it was like?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; not that I can recall.
Mr. HUBERT. Did she say what she wanted to do there, what kind of a job she wanted?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was a job for waitresses was what he run all the time.
Mr. HUBERT. Did she mention that is what she was applying for?
Mr. CRAFARD. She mentioned the fact that she was calling in connection with the ad.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, you must have asked her what she looked like.
Mr. CRAFARD. Oh, yes; I asked her for a general description of herself, measurements and weight.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us what she said?
Mr. CRAFARD. As far as I can recall, she give me her general height and weight, color of her eyes, her hair.
Mr. HUBERT. What was all that?

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Mr. CRAFARD. I don't recall.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean you don't remember whether she was a blonde or a brunette?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe she said she had brown hair.
Mr. HUBERT. Then you do recall about that?
Mr. CRAFARD. I think that is what she said. I am not sure.
Mr. HUBERT. What about her height? What mental impression did you form as to what sort of a person she must look like?
Mr. CRAFARD. From the description she give me, I figured she must be a fairly nice looking girl.
Mr. HUBERT. I judged that you had that impression. Did she have a good figure?
Mr. CRAFARD. If I recall right, she more than likely must have had. That is about 90 percent of a girls looks anyway.
Mr. HUBERT. What is that?
Mr. CRAFARD. I figure that is about 90 percent of a girls looks, physical looks, is her figure.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean you are attentive to that sort of thing?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; like any other man.
Mr. HUBERT. I am not critical. It brings me back to the point that you said you didn't remember what she looked like. I suggest perhaps that you do. It is a little bit more than you are telling us.
Mr. CRAFARD. I figured that she must have been a pretty nice--had a pretty decent figure from her description and everything, or I wouldn't have thought she was a fairly good looking girl if she hadn't give a pretty good description of her figure. But as far as the measurements, I can't remember the exact measurements or anything like that.
Mr. HUBERT. But she was a brunette and she had a good figure. Did she say anything about her weight?
Mr. CRAFARD. She must have been fairly light. It seemed attractive to me because I like a smaller female. It must have been about 100 or 105, something like that. But I don't remember the exact weight or anything.
Mr. HUBERT. But you do remember that the weight was attractive to you?
Mr. CRAFARD. It must have been light.
Mr. HUBERT. And therefore it was light. Are there any other preferences of yours that would help us to determine that she told you?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I can think of, other than a good figure and a fairly decent height.
Mr. HUBERT. How did she describe her face?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't really remember how she described her face, it has been so blasted long ago.
Mr. HUBERT. When the first part of this conversation ended, did she tell you she was going to call you back?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe I said something to her about calling me back if she got the chance, or something.
Mr. HUBERT. Did she say why she had to end the conversation, the first conversation?
Mr. CRAFARD. I think she said something about the kids she was babysitting with, or something.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean that she had to attend to them?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And that she had to end the conversation?
Mr. CRAFARD. To tell you the truth what I thought, I kind of had the idea all the way through it sounded to me like it was a bunch of older guys and gals in the background giggling all the time. It seems to me like it was a dare they had put her up to just to see how long a person would talk to her, or something.
Mr. HUBERT. Then there were people?
Mr. CRAFARD. It sounded like.
Mr. HUBERT. Other than babies?
Mr. CRAFARD. She kept saying she was babysitting with these kids and that was all that was there was these young kids.

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Mr. HUBERT. But you heard adults in the background?
Mr. CRAFARD. It sounded to me like it was at least teenagers, kids at least in their midteens, if not older, and I kind of had the idea that they had probably put her up to a dare.
Mr. HUBERT. And you were willing to go along with that?
Mr. CRAFARD. Sure; why not? I would probably never see her.
Mr. HUBERT. And you haven't?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; not that I know of.
Mr. HUBERT. Let's put it this way: You may have met some girls since then, but in any case those that you have met have not identified themselves or become identified with that girl?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. That would take us until about 3 o'clock in the morning wouldn't it?
Mr. CRAFARD. Right about that; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you asleep?
Mr. CRAFARD. I think I dozed off about then, and by then this call came from Jack.
Mr. HUBERT. What time was that?
Mr. CRAFARD. That must have been between 3:30 and 3:45, I guess.
Mr. HUBERT. How long after the call with the girl?
Mr. CRAFARD. It wasn't but about--it couldn't have been more than a half hour.
Mr. HUBERT. Did Jack indicate that he had been trying to get you but the line had been busy?
Mr CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. What did he want?
Mr. CRAFARD. He wanted me to get dressed to meet him downstairs with the camera, Polaroid Land camera, with extra films and extra bulbs.
Mr. HUBERT. That is the camera you told us was previously used for taking the pictures of customers?
Mr. CRAFARD. Taking the pictures of what?
Mr. HUBERT. Of customers.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he ask you whether you knew how to operate that camera?
Mr. CRAFARD. I think there had been some discussion about the camera on a couple--on a previous occasion about it.
Mr. HUBERT. As a matter of fact, you had operated it?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I had operated it at the club a couple of times.
Mr. HUBERT. He knew you had?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I think there was something said a couple of nights before, something about it.
Mr. HUBERT. You had taken pictures of the customers, as you frequently did, to give them as they danced with the girls? And he knew that you had done that?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, see; yea, he knew that I had done it.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he ask you if you knew how to operate one?
Mr. CRAFARD. He asked me if I knew how to change the film, that is what it was. I told him yes.
Mr. HUBERT. So what happened then?
Mr. CRAFARD. So I went ahead and got dressed. I had just got dressed and got the film and bulbs and was starting to get the camera when this guy from the garage called up and told me Jack was downstairs and wanted me to hurry. So I went out downstairs and got in the car.
Mr. HUBERT. Who was the guy from the garage?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't remember what his name was.
Mr. HUBERT. A white man?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was a white boy.
Mr. HUBERT. White woman?
Mr. CRAFARD. White man.
Mr. HUBERT. White man. Did he telephone you or come up?

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Mr. CRAFARD. He telephoned up. He couldn't have come up. The door was locked.
Mr. HUBERT. So Jack was there?
Mr. CRAFARD. Outside in the car when I went down, Jack and George Senator.
Mr. HUBERT. How long was that after you had spoken to Jack?
Mr. CRAFARD. It couldn't have been more than a half hour at the most, because I hadn't much more than got dressed when he called from upstairs.
Mr. HUBERT. As I understood it, about a half hour after you finished talking to the girl you were just about dozing when Jack called?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And said he would be right down?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You got up and dressed?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. You fetched the camera?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. And the bulbs and the film?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you load the camera then?
Mr. CRAFARD. The camera was loaded.
Mr. HUBERT. It was already loaded?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he know that?
Mr. CRAFARD. He knew it was loaded but nobody had any idea exactly how many--we didn't know for sure how many pictures were left in it.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you take some extra film?
Mr.CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. It was all there?
Mr. CRAFARD. A roll of extra film.
Mr. HUBERT. All of that wouldn't take a half hour, would it?
Mr. CRAFARD. I washed up, I imagine, before I got dressed. I usually did.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you where you were going?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not until after we went out there. We took off and I said, "Where are we going?" He didn't say anything. He went on out there.
Mr. HUBERT. When he called by telephone the first time did he tell you where he was?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't know for sure. I don't remember whether he did or not.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know where he was?
Mr. CRAFARD. I took it for granted he was at the home as far as I figured.
Mr. HUBERT. Was there anything that you now recall that would help you remember as to whether he was calling from home or not?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; not that I can recall.
Mr. HUBERT. So in fact you really don't know where he was?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you think it was as much as a half hour after he called that you got the call from the garageman to come down?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And he and Senator were in the car?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. Senator was in front?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; Jack and Senator were both in front.
Mr. HUBERT. You got in the back?
Mr. CRAFARD. That's right.
Mr. HUBERT. And you drove off?
Mr. CRAFARD. That's right.
Mr. HUBERT. It is at that time I think you said you asked him what this was all about?
Mr. CRAFARD. I think I said something about where are we going.
Mr. HUBERT. What did he say?
Mr. CRAFARD. He said "I want you to take some pictures."
Mr.HUBERT. And did you ask him where?
Mr. CRAFARD. He was driving then.

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Mr. HUBERT. Did you ask him of what?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't recall if I asked him about what or not. I think him and Senator were talking.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember what they were talking about?
Mr. CRAFARD. Something about an ad, I think an ad, a sign or something like that. When we got out there, it was "Impeach Earl Warren" sign at the corner of the North Central Expressway.
Mr. HUBERT. And what?
Mr. CRAFARD. North Central and Hall, I believe it is.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you describe this intersection that you think that you took this sign----
Mr. CRAFARD. It was just like most of the expressway intersections are. Around--come around under this bridge under an overcrossing and a road into the side here, and another one comes square into it here over the other side of the bridge. It was a building set in here.
Mr. HUBERT. Let me ask you this: How do you know it was the North Expressway and Hall?
Mr. CRAFARD. The sign on the corner.
Mr. HUBERT. You saw the sign that said that?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. We parked right beside the sign.
Mr. HUBERT. And you have no questions about your memory on that? It was next to a sign saying North Expressway?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was on the North Central Expressway. I believe it was the North Central and Hall.
Mr. HUBERT. You parked by the sign which designated both streets?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe yes; I believe that was the name of the streets. I am not sure of the side street, but I believe it was Hall.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You drove out of town from the Carousel Club. Did you drive north on the North Central Expressway?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't know which way. I don't even know exactly which way the North Central Expressway runs.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you this: This overpass that was near the intersection, did you go under the overpass before you got to the sign?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now the sign, was that located facing traffic that comes into town or traffic that goes out of town?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was facing traffic coming into town; I am not sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And was there a place to park near that sign?
Mr. CRAFARD. On a side street that I believe is Hall.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Could you pull off what you believe to be Hall Street, could you pull off the road at that point and drive right up next to the sign?
Mr. CRAFARD. There was a curb up--you would have to go over the curb to do so, I believe. I think we parked along the curb here and got out and walked across this open, small open space to the building the sign was on.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How large was the sign?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was I think about 3-foot long and about the same height, 3 or 4 foot.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And what kind of a standard or support was it on?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was on a building.
Mr. GRIFFIN. It was actually plastered on a building?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. About how high up on the building was it?
Mr. CRAFARD. I'd say about 5 or 6 foot.
Mr. HUBERT. How many pictures did you take?
Mr. CRAFARD. I took three photographs.
Mr. HUBERT. Were those instantaneous print pictures?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; 10-second Polaroid.
Mr. HUBERT. After you had finished taking them, what happened?
Mr. CRAFARD. We got back in the car and went back into town to one of those cafes and had coffee.
Mr. HUBERT. What is the name of the cafe?

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Mr. CRAFARD. I don't remember the name of the cafe. I could take a person right to it, but I can't tell you the name.
Mr. HUBERT. How far away was it from the Carousel?
Mr. CRAFARD. About 2 1/2 blocks.
Mr. HUBERT. Which way?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it would be south.
Mr. HUBERT. What was it, on Commerce Street?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was half a block off Commerce, two blocks down Commerce and half a block off.
Mr. HUBERT. Was Senator with you then?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, the three of us were together. We went in and had coffee, and I believe Jack showed the pictures to the man there in the cafe.
Mr. HUBERT. What did Jack say about the pictures at any time, commencing from the time you took them till----
Mr. CRAFARD. There was some reference made between the address on the pictures and the address on an ad he had saw in the paper.
Mr. HUBERT. Who made that reference?
Mr. CRAFARD. Ruby made the reference.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the context of the reference, what the idea was contained in his reference?
Mr. CRAFARD. The fact that there was quite a similarity--he said something about the numbers were the same when turned around a little bit.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean that the numbers----
Mr. CRAFARD. In the address.
Mr. HUBERT. The numbers in the address of the sign of which you had taken a picture were similar to those in an advertisement of some sort?
Mr. CRAFARD. As far as I could understand, a hate advertisement that he had saw in the paper.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he have that hate advertisement with him?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I know of.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he express his thoughts as to what he proposed to do with those pictures?
Mr. CRAFARD. He said something about going down to the post office and checking this box number to see who had a box number, a certain box, or something.
Mr. HUBERT. Other than that, did he mention what he wanted the pictures for?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I recall, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you stay in the cafe?
Mr. CRAFARD. We was there long enough to drink coffee, and that is about it.
Mr. HUBERT. That would be about how many minutes?
Mr. CRAFARD. Oh, maybe 20 or 25 minutes.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you go next?
Mr. CRAFARD. Then they took me over to the Carousel Club and dropped me off at the Carousel Club.
Mr. HUBERT. What time was that?
Mr. CRAFARD. This was about 5, maybe 5:20. I'd say between 5 and 5:30.
Mr. HUBERT. What did you do next?
Mr. CRAFARD. I went back upstairs and put the camera up.
Mr. HUBERT. And then what?
Mr. CRAFARD. I think I picked up a book and read another book or something.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you go to sleep?
Mr. CRAFARD. Read a book or something.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you go to sleep?
Mr. CRAFARD. I wasn't sleepy at that time.
Mr. HUBERT. I said did you go to sleep?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; not that I can recall.
Mr. HUBERT. What is the next thing that happened?
Mr. CRAFARD. About 8:30, I think it was, I called Jack. When I had been with them I said something about dogfood, and Jack had said he'd bring some back, so I called him about 8:30 and said--I guess I woke him up or something. He was fairly shook up over the phone and chewed me out a little bit about waking him up at that time in the morning.

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Mr. HUBERT. Had you ever wakened him up at that time before?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I had never called him before in the morning, like that.
Mr. HUBERT. What made you do so on this occasion?
Mr. CRAFARD. He wanted me to be sure and feed the dogs, and I didn't have any dogfood to feed them. He was usually up by that time in the morning, the way he talked. He said he always got up at 7 o'clock every morning, and I called him, figured when he did come down he could bring dogfood down.
Mr. HUBERT. You expressed two thoughts a little while ago. I want to, there again, get the factual basis for those thoughts or impressions. One, that he was shook up, and the other that he chewed you out. Those are both impressions that are based upon facts. What were the facts?
Mr. CRAFARD. Well, the way he answerd the phone, he was kind of teed off, you know, sort of teed off. He answered the phone in a grumpy way. He had never spoke to me on the phone that way before.
Mr. HUBERT. What did he say?
Mr. CRAFARD. He just give me the daylights for calling him.
Mr. HUBERT. How did he give you the daylights?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't remember what he said exactly.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he curse?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't believe so.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he say that you were stupid? Did he use some words that you didn't like, that gave you the impression he was mad at you?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't remember what he said, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. But, in any case, whatever words they were, they were not polite?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Shall I put it that way?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was his general way of speaking to me, more like he talked to me more like he always did with Andy, when he was mad with Andy, when he was bawling Andy out for something.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it the tone of voice more than the actual words?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was both. One thing his voice was very loud, and he knew how that grated on me.
Mr. HUBERT. He had talked to you like that before?
Mr. CRAFARD. On one occasion, and I had stopped him. I told him I didn't like it. I told him if he wanted to talk to me, to talk to me, not to yell at me.
Mr. HUBERT. How long ago had that been before?
Mr. CRAFARD. Just shortly after I went to work for him.
Mr. HUBERT. And he had never done it since?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. But he did do it on this occasion?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. You also said that he seemed shook up, I think, or what were the words you used there?
Mr. GRIFFIN. That are used?
Mr. HUBERT. No; that he used.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I think he said "shook up.”
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe I did.
Mr. HUBERT. And that he had chewed you out. I had asked you for a separate basis of facts for both of those, both of those mental impressions you got. Is your explanation intended to cover both of them?
Mr. CRAFARD. About the only thing I could figure, it would be the same for the other.
Mr. HUBERT. As I gather it then----
Mr. CRAFARD. He was shook up, mad.
Mr. HUBERT. He was mad at you?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is what I believe I was using the term "shook up" to mean.
Mr. HUBERT. He was mad at you and he chewed you out.
Mr. CRAFARD. That's right.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he mention anything about the President?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't recall.

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Mr. HUBERT. Was it simply that here was a man who had been asleep and who had been wakened and he was mad because somebody had wakened him up?
Mr. CRAFARD. It could have been. That is what I took it as.
Mr. HUBERT. That is what you took it as?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. He used the tone of voice with you that he had used once before which you didn't like, and you told him about?
Mr. CRAFARD. He said something else. I don't remember what it was he said.
Mr. HUBERT. What was it like?
Mr. CRAFARD. How's that?
Mr. HUBERT. What was it like in addition to this? Was it something particularly more aggravating to you?
Mr. CRAFARD. I would, think it was pertaining to the President or somethingthere. I don't remember what it was.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, pass it. Perhaps we will come back to it in a little while. How long did that conversation last, about?
Mr. CRAFARD. Maybe 5 minutes at time most.
Mr. HUBERT. What did he say about the dogs?
Mr. CRAFARD. He said he would bring some dog food down.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you when?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; he said, "When you come."
Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you when to come?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. This you say was about 8:30?
Mr. CRAFARD. About 8:30.
Mr. HUBERT. It lasted 5 minutes?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Had Andy come yet?
Mr. CRAFARD. How's that?
Mr. HUBERT. Had Andy come yet?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; Andy wasn't coming in. The club was closed.
Mr. HUBERT. The club still hadn't been cleaned up?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. What happened next?
Mr. CRAFARD. I think I went over and had breakfast.
Mr. HUBERT. Right away?
Mr. CRAFARD. Shortly after that. Within 10 or 15 minutes, it was.
Mr. HUBERT. You were still dressed, I take it, because you had never undressed?
Mr. CRAFARD. That's right.
Mr. HUBERT. You hadn't been to sleep at all?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. You hadn't been to sleep at all that night?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not very much, dozed off a couple of times or so, I guess.
Mr. HUBERT. I mean what with reading the book after you went to bed and the telephone conversation, or both of them, with the girl?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. And then the visit outside with Jack and then going back and reading some more, and then the call at 8:30, as I understand you, correct me if I am wrong, you didn't really sleep at all that night?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; that's right.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you go to breakfast?
Mr. CRAFARD. I went over to the Walgreen drugstore.
Mr. HUBERT. What time did you get back?
Mr. CRAFARD. I was gone about a half hour, approximately--probably 9:15 or 9:30.
Mr. HUBERT. All right. What happened then?
Mr. CRAFARD. I sat around the club there for quite a while. Then I decided to leave, so I took off.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you reach your decision to leave?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't know. It must have been about 11 or 11:15, something like that.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any money?

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Mr. CRAFARD. I had $5, and that was it.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you owed any money?
Mr. CRAFARD. Like I say, there was no--he had come to an agreement to give me some money, but I didn't know how much he had figured on giving me, or anything. I think I took $5 out of the till, if I remember correct, and left a draw slip in the till.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any money other than the $5?
Mr. CRAFARD. I think I had $2 in my pocket.
Mr. HUBERT. So you had $7, all together?
Mr. CRAFARD. That's right.
Mr. HUBERT. Where were you going?
Mr. CRAFARD. I went to Michigan.
Mr. HUBERT. Had you determined at that time that you were going to Michigan?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I had wrote to my sister quite a while before that, and I had got no answer, and I had been worrying, wondering what the devil was wrong there because she never failed to answer me right away.
Mr. HUBERT. Was that the reason that you decided to go, to find out?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was the only reason that I know of I was going.
Mr. HUBERT. What I want to get at is what was your motivation for leaving.
Mr. CRAFARD. Well, I had been wanting to go up to Michigan to see my sister and find out what was wrong.
Mr. HUBERT. And that was the reason you went?
Mr. CRAFARD. That's right.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, then, this little rhubarb you had with Sack wasn't the real cause of it?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. That had nothing to do with your decision?
Mr. CRAFARD. That's right.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you leave any note to say what you were doing?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I left the key down with the boy at the garage, and told him to give it to Jack when Jack come in.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you leave any verbal message that you were leaving?
Mr. CRAFARD. I think I told him to tell Jack I said goodby.
Mr. HUBERT. Don't you think you owed him more than that?
Mr. CRAFARD. I never stopped to give it a thought.
Mr. HUBERT. Why didn't you call him and tell him that you wanted to go and see your sister?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't know. I haven't got any idea.
Mr. HUBERT. Why didn't you wait until he came in and tell him?
Mr. CRAFARD. I made up my mind to go, and that was it.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you propose to travel that distance with $7?
Mr. CRAFARD. Hitchhike.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you done that before in your life?
Mr. CRAFARD. That's right.
Mr. HUBERT. You told absolutely nobody but the garageman that you were leaving; is that right?
Mr. CRAFARD. That's right. He is the only one I spoke to. I gave him the key and told him to tell Jack I said goodby.
Mr. HUBERT. You did not tell him where you were going?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you in fact go? What route did you take?
Mr. CRAFARD. I went out and took, I think it is 77, I believe it is--right outside of Dallas.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you walk there?
Mr. CRAFARD. I walked out about 15 or 18 blocks, I think it is, and a guy I had met Out at the fair picked me up. He saw me.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you arrange for him to pick you up?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; he was going by, he saw me, and he recognized me.
Mr. HUBERT. What is his name?
Mr. CRAFARD. How's that?
Mr. HUBERT. What is his name?

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Mr. CRAFARD. I don't remember what his name is. He worked out there for a while. I never did know his name. I don't think he knew my name. He recognized me as having worked out there.
Mr. HUBERT. You were on the highway hitchhiking at that time?
Mr. CRAFARD. That's right.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have a bag?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. How large was it?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was a regular satchel and I had another bag.
Mr. HUBERT. What kind of a car was he driving?
Mr. CRAFARD. I think he had a 1954 or 1955 Chevy, I believe it was.
Mr. HUBERT. He was alone?
Mr. CRAFARD. He had his son with him.
Mr. HUBERT. How old is his son?
Mr. CRAFARD. Nine or ten years old, I believe.
Mr. HUBERT. How far did you go with him?
Mr. CRAFARD. He took me about 20 or 25 or 30 miles out. It wasn't in Dallas.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you tell him where you were heading?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I told him I was going up to Michigan.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you discuss the route to go to Michigan?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I knew the route I wanted.
Mr. HUBERT. Had you looked it up?
Mr. CRAFARD. I had been across that route previously and knew.
Mr. HUBERT. Hitchhiking?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. How long before?
Mr. CRAFARD. My wife and I left Dallas in 1963. We went up 77 to 66.
Mr. HUBERT. But you weren't hitchhiking then, were you?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; we hitchhiked. She wouldn't take the bus. I had money for her to take the bus with her and the kids, and she refused to do so.
Mr. HUBERT. You told us earlier you had gone by bus.
Mr. CRAFARD. We went part way by bus.
Mr. HUBERT. Which part did you go by bus?
Mr. CRAFARD. We went I think from Sacramento, took the bus out.
Mr. HUBERT. You hitchhiked to Sacramento?
Mr. CRAFARD. We hitchhiked to Bakersfield, and picked up a motorcycle I had there and went on the motorcycle. I worked in California there for about 3 weeks.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you go by bus?
Mr. CRAFARD. From Sacramento we took the bus on up to Washington.
Mr. HUBERT. But you hitchhiked the previous time?
Mr. CRAFARD. To Bakersfield.
Mr. HUBERT. With your wife?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And it was at her request? She wanted to hitchhike?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Rather than go by bus?
Mr. CRAFARD. That's right.
Mr. HUBERT. Did she give any reason for that?
Mr. CRAFARD. She didn't want to leave me.
Mr. HUBERT. Didn't want to what?
Mr. CRAFARD. She didn't want to leave, let me go by myself or something.
Mr. HUBERT. But you said you offered to take her by bus.
Mr. CRAFARD. I offered to send her by bus and I'd hitchhike. That is what I figured on doing. I had the money to send her and the two boys, but I didn't have money enough to take the bus myself.
Mr. HUBERT. So the three of you hitchhiked--the four of you hitchhiked?
Mr. CRAFARD. That's right.
Mr. HUBERT. There were two young babies and you and your wife?
Mr. CRAFARD. That's right.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any difficulty with that?
Mr. CRAFARD. None whatsoever.

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Mr. HUBERT. Now you have hitchhiked a lot, Larry---isn't it true that it is much harder for a group of people to hitchhike than an individual?
Mr. CRAFARD. It depends on the group. You take a group like that and it is much easier for a family group like that to get a hitchhike than it is for a single person.
Mr. HUBERT. Why?
Mr. CRAFARD. Oh, people seem to stop a lot faster for a family group like that than they would for a single person.
Mr. HUBERT. But you had never hitchhiked north, had you?
Mr. CRAFARD. I figured to myself that we would take a route across from Dallas to Amarillo, that that was a pretty hard route to hichhike under any circumstances, and figured that would be a lot easier, to go up 77 to hit 66, than it would be to go through to Amarillo.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you consult a map at all in planning this trip?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Where?
Mr. CRAFARD. We picked it up at the gas station.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean after you started out?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I picked up a map right there.
Mr. HUBERT. Where?
Mr. CRAFARD. In Dallas, Tex., about a block from where my wife and I had been living.
Mr. HUBERT. I am talking about consulting a map with reference to going to see your sister when you left Ruby's place.
Mr. CRAFARD. I knew that 77 would carry me right into 66, and 66 would carry me almost in to Chicago.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn't have to consult a map then?
Mr. CRAFARD. That's right.
Mr. HUBERT. Is that what you are telling us?
Mr. CRAFARD. That's right.
Mr. HUBERT. All right. This boy picked you up then and carried you about 30 miles, you say?
Mr. CRAFARD. That's right.
Mr. HUBERT. To what place?
Mr. CRAFARD. Out the other side of Carrollton a little ways.
Mr. HUBERT. What State?
Mr. CRAFARD. Texas.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he live there?
Mr. CRAFARD. He had a place there on the lake he was working on, he was going out there.
Mr. HUBERT. What lake was that?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't remember the name of the lake.
Mr. HUBERT. But it was at Carrollton?
Mr. CRAFARD. Out the other side of Carrollton.
Mr. HUBERT. How far beyond Carrollton?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't know. He went out and turned off on a country road.
Mr. HUBERT. But he left you on the highway?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it a country road that went east or west of the highway you were on?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he went to the west, I am not sure.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you how far he had to go up the road?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. He was going to work, is that it?
Mr. CRAFARD. How's that?
Mr. HUBERT. He was going to work?
Mr. CRAFARD. He was going to go up and do some work on his cabin.
Mr. HUBERT. On his cabin on the lake?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did this man know Ruby?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I know of.
Mr. HUBERT. Could he have met Ruby as you did out at the fair?

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Mr. CRAFARD. He could have, yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You don't know that he did?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I know of.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you speak to him about what you had been doing in the interim since you had last seen him?
Mr. CRAFARD. I told him that I had been working in Dallas at the Carousel.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you mention that you had been working for Ruby?
Mr. CRAFARD. I probably told him that Ruby ran the Carousel Club.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he show any signs of recognizing he had seen Ruby out at the State Fair?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Or that he knew him in any other way?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. So far as you know then, the man didn't know Ruby?
Mr. CRAFARD. That's right.
Mr. HUBERT. He gave no manifestations of knowing him at all?
Mr. CRAFARD. That's right.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, then. What happened next?
Mr. CRAFARD. I hitchhiked on up to Michigan.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you wait for your next hitch?
Mr. CRAFARD. Oh, barely about 10 or 15 minutes.
Mr. HUBERT. The same spot or were you walking along?
Mr. CRAFARD. I stayed right there, walked about a hundred yards, maybe, up to an entryway where the cars came into the freeway.
Mr. HUBERT. Then you got another ride?
Mr. CRAFARD. Got another ride, right there.
Mr. HUBERT. Who was that with?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't remember.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us something about him, what kind of a car it was, was it a man, a woman?
Mr. CRAFARD. Oh, man; I believe it was a ride with a man.
Mr. HUBERT. How far did you go with this second driver?
Mr. CRAFARD. Wait a minute, it was a man and his wife that picked me up, carried me on up across the line, up to where he hit 66.
Mr. HUBERT. What kind of a car was it, do you know?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe they had an old Chevy, or an old Ford.
Mr. HUBERT. What license car?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was a Texas car.
Mr. HUBERT. And they carried you across the Texas line?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. They was going up to visit some relatives of his up there.
Mr. HUBERT. Where? Is there a town at the Texas line that he dropped you off?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; it was on up about 50 or 60 miles across the other side of the line.
Mr. HUBERT. Oh, I thought from what you said that he had dropped you off at the line. In fact he had brought you about 60 miles beyond the line.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And into what State?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was Oklahoma.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you ride with him?
Mr. CRAFARD. We was together for about 5 or 6 hours.
Mr. HUBERT. What time of day was it when he dropped you off?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was night when I got off there.
Mr. HUBERT. What time had he picked you up?
Mr. CRAFARD. He picked me up about between 12:30 and a quarter to 1.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the town it was in?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was one of the big towns there, if I can think of it.
Mr. HUBERT. Tulsa, Oklahoma City?
Mr. CRAFARD. Oklahoma City, I think it was.
Mr. HUBERT. You rode in the back?

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Mr. CRAFARD. I rode in the front seat with them. They were driving the car.
Mr. HUBERT. What?
Mr. CRAFARD. I rode in the front seat with them.
Mr. HUBERT. The three of you in the front?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, they had stuff in the back seat.
Mr. HUBERT. And I understood you to say that they didn't tell you their names at all?
Mr. CRAFARD. They give me their name, but I don't remember it.
Mr. HUBERT. But that they were going to visit some relatives in Oklahoma City?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. They was visiting his dad.
Mr. HUBERT. His father. And that would have been around 6:30 or 7 at night?
Mr. CRAFARD. Right around there; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you have lunch?
Mr. CRAFARD. We stopped along the road at a cafe and had lunch.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you stop on the road with the couple or with that friend?
Mr. CRAFARD. With the couple.
Mr. HUBERT. You paid for your own lunch?
Mr. CRAFARD. That's right.
Mr. HUBERT. That I think was your first expenditure on the trip?
Mr. CRAFARD. That's right.
Mr. HUBERT. How much did that cost you?
Mr. CRAFARD. Maybe $1, a dollar and a half.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you pay for their lunch?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; they paid for their own.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, what did you do then?
Mr. CRAFARD. They let me out. I hitchhiked on up to Michigan.
Mr. HUBERT. Did they leave you in downtown?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; they took me out to the edge of town to hitch a ride.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it in the direction they were going?
Mr. CRAFARD. They dropped by there, by his dad's place, and we sat there and we each had a cup of coffee and he took me out to the edge of town.
Mr. HUBERT. So you met his dad too?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You don't know what street that was on?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don't.
Mr. HUBERT. You don't know the name of the people?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Was there anybody else there besides the father?
Mr. CRAFARD. There was the father and one son that was at home.
Mr. HUBERT. An adult son?
Mr. CRAFARD. He was in school I understand.
Mr. HUBERT. How old a boy was he?
Mr. CRAFARD. He must have been about 16 or 17.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you stay there?
Mr. CRAFARD. We was there maybe a half an hour.
Mr. HUBERT. And had coffee?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. No supper?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Then they took you from there to a spot on the highway on the other side of Oklahoma City--that is, on the north side did they?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. And dropped you off for your next hitch?
Mr. CRAFARD. That's right.
Mr. HUBERT. How long a drive was it to get you there?
Mr. CRAFARD. Oh, maybe about 4 or 5 miles.
Mr. HUBERT. Miles you say?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. The man and his wife or just the man?

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Mr. CRAFARD. Him and his wife, and I think his brother was with him, him and his wife and his brother.
Mr. HUBERT. They dropped you off?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Any suggestions made that you might rest overnight there?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. And you did not?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you get a hitch?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Right away?
Mr. CRAFARD. Oh, I stood there maybe a half hour, 45 minutes, I was standing under a street light.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you get supper?
Mr. CRAFARD. I think I ate about 10 or 11 o'clock that night.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us about your third hitch, how long it was, and so forth.
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it carried me through most of the night, through the rest of the night I believe.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it a man, woman?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was a man.
Mr. HUBERT. Alone?
Mr. CRAFARD. As far as I can figure.
Mr. HUBERT. How old?
Mr. CRAFARD. Maybe in his late thirties.
Mr. HUBERT. What sort of an automobile?
Mr. CRAFARD. I think he had a Buick.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the color?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don't.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the license, what State license?
Mr. CRAFARD. Oklahoma.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you sit in the back or in the front?
Mr. CRAFARD. I sat in the front.
Mr. HUBERT. And he carried you how far?
Mr. CRAFARD. We traveled most of the night. He was traveling back east.
Mr. HUBERT. What time did he drop you off and where?
Mr. CRAFARD. I think he dropped me off just the other side of Missouri, in Missouri, just outside of St. Louis on 66.
Mr. HUBERT. Which side of St. Louis?
Mr. CRAFARD. The south side.
Mr. HUBERT. Which way was he going?
Mr. CRAFARD. That would be the west side of 66, of St. Louis, on 66. going into St. Louis.
Mr. HUBERT. Where was he going after that?
Mr. CRAFARD. As far as I know, he was going back home.
Mr. HUBERT. East?
Mr. CRAFARD. I was going up on 66. So far as I know he was stopping in St. Louis.
Mr. HUBERT. I thought you said he was going east.
Mr. CRAFARD. From where he picked me up it was east, from where he picked me up.
Mr. HUBERT. What I mean, was St. Louis his final destination?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. That was it as far as he was concerned?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You say you had supper with him?
Mr. CRAFARD. We stopped at about 10 or 10:30 and had a bite to eat.
Mr. HUBERT. Where?
Mr. CRAFARD. I think we stopped at a truck stop.
Mr. HUBERT. You don't know what place?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. How long after you had been tiding with him did you stop?

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Mr. CRAFARD. He picked me up, it must have been about 8 o'clock, or 8:30. We didn't stop until about 10 or 10:30 for lunch, for a bite to eat.
Mr. HUBERT. Two and a half hours?
Mr. CRAFARD. About that.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you think you could have run a hundred miles or so?
Mr. CRAFARD. Easily.
Mr. HUBERT. It wasn't a city which you stopped at?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, it was just a little truck stop on the highway.
Mr. HUBERT. On 66?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you fall asleep there?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe I did, yes.
Mr. HUBERT. At what time, do you know?
Mr. CRAFARD. I have no idea.
Mr. HUBERT. You are not sure then that you did fall asleep?
Mr. CRAFARD. I fell asleep, but I have no idea when it was.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know how long you slept?
Mr. CRAFARD. I slept until about a half hour out of St. Louis, when I woke up.
Mr. HUBERT. What time did you get to St. Louis?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't remember.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it daylight?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so.
Mr. HUBERT. How much had you spent for supper?
Mr. CRAFARD. Maybe a dollar; a dollar and a half.
Mr. HUBERT. You were down to about $4 then?
Mr. CRAFARD. That's right.
Mr. HUBERT. What happened next?
Mr. CRAFARD. Then I went on up. I got a ride there.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you have to wait until you got that next hitch?
Mr. CRAFARD. Maybe a haft hour.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us about that one; what time it was, what kind of a car it was, the people in it.
Mr. CRAFARD. I imagine it was a man alone.
Mr. HUBERT. Don't imagine if you can help it. If you can't remember, but try to recollect.
Mr. CRAFARD. I can't recall.
Mr. HUBERT. How far did you go on that hitch?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he carried me clear up into Chicago.
Mr. HUBERT. How far a run would that be?
Mr. CRAFARD. How's that?
Mr. HUBERT. How much of a run would that be?
Mr. CRAFARD. That would be about a 7- or 8-hour ride, driving time, I believe.
Mr. HUBERT. It was daylight then?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. So you were on that hitch about 7 hours?
Mr. CRAFARD. That's right.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us whether it was a man or a woman?
Mr. CRAFARD, It was a man.
Mr. HUBERT. Was he alone?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; most of your rides are with men alone.
Mr. HUBERT. A little while ago you told us that you didn't know whether it was a man or a woman or anything; you didn't remember. Now you tell us it was a man.
Mr. CRAFARD. That's right.
Mr. HUBERT. And then you really do remember that it was a man?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. As a matter of fact, I daresay you can describe him, can't you?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I can't describe him.
Mr. HUBERT. Was he a young'man or an old man?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he was in his late twenties.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, what about the automobile?
Mr. CRAFARD. It seems to me like it was a red and white Chevy.

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Mr. HUBERT. You say you were with that person and in that automobile about 7 or 8 hours clean into Chicago. So you had a lot of opportunity to observe such things as who you were riding with.
Mr. CRAFARD. It has been quite a while back, too.
Mr. HUBERT. Is it your memory that you now say he was a man in his late twenties; about 29?
Mr. CRAFARD. I would say in his late twenties.
Mr. HUBERT. And that you don't remember the type of car?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was a Chevy.
Mr. HUBERT. You don't remember the State license plate?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you do any stopping with him?
Mr. CRAFARD. I imagine we probably stopped a couple of times and gassed up; stopped and had a bite to eat.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the cost of that meal?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don't. It couldn't have been more than about a dollar or a dollar and a half, at the most.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn't pay for his meal or buy the gas?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Is it customary for hitchhikers to help out that way?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not very often. A man usually figures if he picks up a hitchhiker he figures on feeding him when he picks him up.
Mr. HUBERT. What is that?
Mr. CRAFARD. A man who usually picks up somebody who is hitchhiking, they usually figure on feeding him.
Mr. HUBERT. These people didn't feed you?
Mr. CRAFARD. No. I try to have money in my pocket when I am hitchhiking.
Mr. HUBERT. What time did you get to Chicago?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was in the afternoon.
Mr. HUBERT. What part of the afternoon.
Mr. CRAFARD. I'm not sure.
Mr. HUBERT. Would it have been early afternoon or getting toward dark? This time of the year it gets dark early; it did at that time.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I know.
Mr. HUBERT. You say you had been with him about 7 1/2 hours?
Mr. CRAFARD. About that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me get the time straight here a little bit.
Mr. HUBERT. I thought we did have it straight.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am not straight.
Mr. HUBERT. Let me see if I can't get this straight. You rode through the night of the 23d?
Mr. CRAFARD. That's right.
Mr. HUBERT. Until the man left you off on the morning of the 24th on the west side of St. Louis on Highway 66; is that right?
Mr. CRAFARD. That's right.
Mr. HUBERT. It was daylight then, and you had been with that man since about 8 o'clock the night before. Now, do you remember the time that he left you off? I think you stated that, didn't you?
Mr. CRAFARD. I'm not exactly sure what the time was. Probably about 6 or 6:30; something like that.
Mr. HUBERT. And then you rode with this other man from that time or about a half hour after that time, you said; so that is about 7 o'clock on the morning of the 24th, you rode with him about 7 1/2 hours to Chicago?
Mr. CRAFARD. About that; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. So then we can reconstruct that you must have reached Chicago or nearby Chicago at approximately half past 2 or 3 in the afternoon.
Mr. CRAFARD. It must have been in there somewhere.
Mr. HUBERT. But you had stopped a little while for lunch.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And gas and so forth. What do you think is the fair time to state, Larry?
Mr. CRAFARD. How's that?

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Mr. HUBERT. What do you think is the fair time to state that the man let you off in Chicago, given the time schedule that we have been able to work out to the extent that it helps your memory? You were there. What we are trying to do is to get the facts.
Mr. CRAFARD. It must have been about 2:30, 3 o'clock, because I got through Chicago all right without any trouble.
Mr. HUBERT. He didn't take you through Chicago?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I bypassed most of Chicago.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you do that?
Mr. CRAFARD. On a couple alternate routes.
Mr. HUBERT. With hitchhikers?
Mr. CRAFARD. Different rides.
Mr. HUBERT. Different rides?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. How many?
Mr. CRAFARD. I got three or four different rides in Chicago.
Mr. HUBERT. With these several rides around Chicago, bypassing it, how long did it take you to get around Chicago?
Mr. CRAFARD. Probably 2 or 3 hours.
Mr. HUBERT. And these were all short ones?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall your next long one that really took you out of Chicago good?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe I had a ride carried me over to Lansing.
Mr. HUBERT. What distance is that from Chicago?
Mr. CRAFARD. I'm not sure of the exact distance.
Mr. HUBERT. What time did that man pick you up, a woman, or whoever it was?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was a man. It must have been getting on toward night; it must have been.
Mr. HUBERT. Toward 9, or night?
Mr. CRAFARD. Night. It must have been getting toward dark. It was getting dark pretty quick at that time.
Mr. HUBERT. Was that man alone?
Mr. CRAFARD. As far as I can recall.
Mr. HUBERT. And you had that ride clean on from Chicago to Lansing, Mich.?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What time did you get to Lansing?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't remember.
Mr. HUBERT. Of course, it was night?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You weren't at your destination yet, were you?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you stay in Lansing very long?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; not too long. I had to pretty well walk through quite a bit of Lansing; about an hour and a half walk, I guess it was.
Mr. HUBERT. Well----
Mr. GRIFFIN. You walked for an hour and a half?
Mr. CRAFARD. About that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And you had two bags with you?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn't attempt to take any streetcars or buses?
Mr. CRAFARD. No city buses running when I got there.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you judge that it was too late for the buses?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I think it was.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it after midnight?
Mr. CRAFARD. I think so; I'm not sure.
Mr. HUBERT. That was a man, too, you think?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you have supper?
Mr. CRAFARD. I think we must have stopped; I think we stopped before we got to Lansing at a care to get supper.

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Mr. HUBERT. How far out of Lansing? If you don't remember the miles, you might tell us about how long before he dropped you off.
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't know that, either.
Mr. HUBERT. You don't know?
Mr. CRAFARD. It must have been 8 or 4 hours. Probably about halfway between Chicago and Lansing.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you think you were with him about 8 hours, then?
Mr. CRAFARD. I think so; I'm not sure.
Mr. HUBERT. And he picked you up about dark?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; that is about a 400- or 500-mile ride.
Mr. HUBERT. He picked you up about dark in Chicago?
Mr. CRAFARD. Just about toward dark.
Mr.HUBERT. Five in the afternoon?
Mr.CRAFARD. It must have been 5 or 5:30.
Mr. HUBERT. So it was something like midnight or shortly after when you got to Lansing?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And you say about halfway between; that is when you had lunch or supper?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. Or about 8 o'clock, do you think; 9 o'clock?
Mr. CRAFARD. It must have been about 8--8 or 8:30--something like that.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you first hear that Oswald had been shot?
Mr. CRAFARD. I had heard that Oswald had been shot Sunday evening.
Mr. HUBERT. Where?
Mr. CRAFARD. It must have been while I was getting through Chicago.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you hear that?
Mr. CRAFARD. Over the radio.
Mr. HUBERT. What radio?
Mr. CRAFARD. The car radio.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know that Ruby had done it?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I didn't find out who had done it until the following Monday, the following morning, Monday.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you find that out?
Mr. CRAFARD. I heard that over the radio.
Mr. HUBERT. As a matter of fact, Larry, I suppose all of those cars you were in had radios, didn't they?
Mr. CRAFARD. A lot of people don't listen to the radio when they are riding like that. That was the first I'd heard of it---was Sunday evening, the first I heard Oswald had been shot.
Mr. HUBERT. Sunday afternoon, wasn't it?
Mr. CRAFARD. How is that?
Mr. HUBERT. You said it was while you were working your way through Chicago.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Which took you two or three different cars; about 2 hours or so?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. It was in one of those that you heard it?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. There was no announcement that Ruby had done it?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't believe so, because I didn't know Ruby had done it until Monday morning.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you find that out?
Mr. CRAFARD. I heard that over the news.
Mr. HUBERT. In a car?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. During the night when you were driving from Chicago to Lansing, during the period from 5 in the afternoon to about midnight, didn't you hear any radio announcements about any of this matter?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did that car have a radio in it?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so.

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Mr. HUBERT. Wasn't it playing?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I recall.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you discuss the shooting?
Mr. CRAFARD. After I found out that Oswald had been shot we discussed it a little bit. We couldn't understand. Both of us, as far as I can recall---the gentleman I was riding with and myself--we both said we would like to have seen him come to trial.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you mention to the man that you were from Dallas?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't recall.
Mr. HUBERT. Isn't it customary for hitchhikers to discuss what is a subject common to them, and that is where you have been and where you are going?
Mr. CRAFARD. Most of the time; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Didn't you, in fact, do that with this man; tell him you were from Dallas?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't recall whether I did or not.
Mr. HUBERT. There is a difference between telling us that you don't know and that you did not.
Mr. CRAFARD. That is what I say. I don't recall whether I did or not.
Mr. HUBERT. So, really, it is not that you are saying to us that you didn't, but just that you don't remember?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right, I don't recall whether I had been doing so. I more than likely did, because it is usually something that they say; it is a subject that most people would discuss--where their destination is and where they have come from.
Mr. HUBERT. And I would think that if you did, if there was a possibility that you did, and you mentioned that you were from Dallas, that that would be another topic of conversation that might be interesting between two people riding along that way.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. That is to say, that you had been in the city at which the President was killed.
Mr. CRAFARD. We would have discussed that.
Mr. HUBERT. Doesn't that refresh your memory on the subject?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; it doesn't, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. You still don't remember?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don't.
Mr. HUBERT. Talking to that man about the fact that you were in Dallas?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don't.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember having any indication that it was known who had shot Oswald?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I don't.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you talk to anyone about the fact that it was a nightclub owner?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't recall, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did the radio remain on after you heard this announcement?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't remember whether the radio stayed on, or whether he turned it off, or what.
Mr. HUBERT. In any case, what you are telling us--it is your best memory now that you heard it over the radio that Oswald had been shot. That is as much as you did hear?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. You did not hear who had done it or even the type of person who had done it, or what business the person was in who had done it, and that you never discussed it with anybody that you rode with in any one of those rides in Chicago and with the ride to Lansing?
Mr. CRAFARD. So far as I recall, I don't recall--I lmagine it was discussed, but I don't recall discussing it. I don't remember it.
Mr. HUBERT. Let's put it this way: If you had discussed with anybody the killing of Oswald, the man accused of killing Oswald, you would remember that now, wouldn't you, Larry?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I would, if I discussed anything about who had been

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accused of it, but, like I say, the first knowledge I had of who had shot Oswald was Monday morning.
Mr. HUBERT. We will get to that in a moment. Now, you had to go through Lansing, and you say it took but an hour and a half?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. What was your next hitch?
Mr. CRAFARD. As far as I can remember, I had a series of short rides, 20 or 25 miles to a ride.
Mr. HUBERT. How far along did these series of short rides take you?
Mr. CRAFARD. I think I probably traveled about 60 or 70 miles before I got a good ride.
Mr. HUBERT. That point, 60 or 75 miles beyond Lansing being the same point at which you got a good ride, was what place?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't remember.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it a large city, a small town?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was a small place as far as I can remember.
Mr. HUBERT. Was that the last hitch you had?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe I got one more after that. I think that one carried me to Mount Pleasant.
Mr. HUBERT. To Mount Pleasant?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. How far is Mount Pleasant from Lansing?
Mr. CRAFARD. I'm not sure.
Mr. HUBERT. Perhaps we can get it by approaching the times. Apparently you left Lansing about an hour and a half after you got there, after you got there about midnight or so, and correct me if I am wrong. We could assume that you left Lansing with a series of short rides which took you 60 miles, approximately 1:30 to 2 o'clock on the morning of the 25th, is that correct?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, it must have been about that.
Mr. HUBERT. And would you care to estimate for us as to how long it took you with the series of short rides to cover the 60 miles to which you have referred?
Mr. CRAFARD. It would be an hour and a half, 2 hours, 2 hours and a half.
Mr. HUBERT. Perhaps it would help if you look at it in this way. Do you remember whether the next long ride that took you into Mount Pleasant you got before or after daylight?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was before daylight.
Mr. HUBERT. It was still dark?
Mr. CRAFARD. I walked about--where this guy let me off at it was about 5 miles from where there was any light and I walked up where there was light to get a ride.
Mr. HUBERT. I didn't quite understand that.
The man who picked you up 60 miles on the other side of Lansing let you off before light?
Mr. CRAFARD. I walked about 5 miles before I got a ride with him.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it light when you got a ride with him?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't believe so. I have lost some time somewhere between leaving Dallas and getting there because I didn't get into Clare until 9:30 at night. It was 9:30 at night when I got into Clare.
Mr. HUBERT. At the present time, you are telling us that you picked up this last long ride took you into Mount Pleasant. Let's find out what time you got into Mount Pleasant, because, you see, you told us you don't know what place it was where you picked up that ride, except that it was somewhat about 60 miles on the other side of Lansing.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir; I didn't get into Clare until, I think it was 9 or 9:30 at night. I've lost at least 8 hours of time.
Mr. HUBERT. Of course I don't know that you have because I don't know what geography or distance we are talking about.
Mr. CRAFARD. The distance isn't that great. It only is 15 miles from Mount Pleasant to Clare.
Mr. HUBERT. Let's start this way. What time did you get to Mount Pleasant?
Mr. CRAFARD. I think it was about 8:30 at night when I got to Mount Pleasant because it was 9:30, I'm almost positive it was 9 or 9:30 when I got

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into Clare, because I went over to my cousin's house in Clare. I remember that.
Mr. HUBERT. It was before dark and before dawn when you picked up the driver somewhere approximately 6 miles on the other side of Lansing who took you into Mount Pleasant. Now, how long did you ride with him, and how far is it between the two?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is what I mean. I have lost some time earlier somewhere, because it is not that long a ride. I could have made it from Lansing to Clare and back again during the day.
Mr. HUBERT. Larry, we want to get it straight.
Mr. CRAFARD. That is what I am trying to do, myself.
Mr. HUBERT. If you want to figure out any place where you have made any mistake about the time----
Mr. CRAFARD. That is what I was trying to do.
Mr. HUBERT. We can start all over again. It seemed to fit as I went along, but I wasn't aware of the distances.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask him this question: I understand you said that you walked through Lansing.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did it take you to walk through Lansing?
Mr. CRAFARD. About an hour, hour and a half, something like that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And at that time the cars were not running, the transit, the public transportation was not running, or were you out of money at that time?
Mr. CRAFARD. I still had money I have to eat on.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Lansing is how far from Clare?
Mr. CRAFARD. Lansing isn't over, I don't believe it is over 225 miles from Clare to Lansing.
Mr. HUBERT. It may be that you are making a mistake, Larry. Let's see if we can't refresh your memory from the time you got that last long hitch that took you to Mount Pleasant because you remember getting to Mount Pleasant at night, about 8:30.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And that, you say, is a run of what--about 5 hours, 6 hours?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't believe it would take that long.
Mr. HUBERT. So if you got there at about 8:30 at night, then either you didn't get any hitches for a long period of time, or else something else happened.
Mr. CRAFARD. I'm just trying to----
Mr. HUBERT. Because you told us, and if it is not so, why we want you to correct it. Everybody can make mistakes.
Mr. CRAFARD. That is what I was trying to do.
Mr. HUBERT. You said that you picked up this ride at a point 60 miles outside of Lansing and into Mount Pleasant prior to dawn on the 25th. Now, maybe that is wrong. Maybe you got that ride late in the day. Let's put it this way. Was that a continuous ride straight on?
Mr. CRAFARD. It carried me straight on through to Mount Pleasant.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you stop at all?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I can recall. It isn't that long a run across there.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you stop for lunch or anything of that sort?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't believe so.
Mr. HUBERT. And it is about a 6-hour run?
MR. CRAFARD. No; I don't believe it is that long a run across there.
Mr. HUBERT. If you got there at 8:30 at night, and if you are firm about that----
Mr. CRAFARD. I'm positive it was 8:30 or 9 o'clock when I got into Clare.
Mr. HUBERT. I am talking about Mount Pleasant. You had no difficulty getting from Mount Pleasant to Clare, did you?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you say an hour would suffice for that?
Mr. CRAFARD. Plenty, plenty of time.
Mr. HUBERT. You got there between 8:30 and 9, that is into Clare, right?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

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Mr. HUBERT. Let's back off from there, then. Did you spend any time in Mount Pleasant before leaving for Clare?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. So that you must have left Clare about 7:30.
Mr. CRAFARD. I got into Clare about----
Mr. HUBERT. I mean left Mount Pleasant about 7:30, right?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I left Clare Mount Pleasant about 8 or 8:30. It was about 9 o'clock when I got into Clare.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you start on your way to Clare immediately after this man left you off at Mount Pleasant?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And had you run directly through without stopping from the time the man picked you up and dropped you off in Mount Pleasant?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right, 15 miles.
Mr. HUBERT. 15 miles? No; I am talking about the run from----
Mr. CRAFARD. From Mount Pleasant to Clare.
Mr. HUBERT. No; I'm talking about the run to Mount Pleasant.
Mr. GRIFFIN. From Lansing to Mount Pleasant.
Mr. HUBERT. A point outside of Lansing to Mount Pleasant. That is about a 4-hour run, you say.
Mr. CRAFARD. At the most, from Lansing to Clare.
Mr. HUBERT. That last long hitch was about a 4-hour hitch?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; the last long ride was maybe 2 1/2 hours.
Mr. HUBERT. 2 1/2 hours?
Mr. CRAFARD. Or 3 hours.
Mr. HUBERT. And that was the man who brought you into Mount Pleasant?
Mr. CRAFARD. Mount Pleasant.
Mr. HUBERT. Therefore, if you got to Mount Pleasant about 8, he must have picked you up about 5 in the afternoon.
Mr. CRAFARD. It must have been.
Mr. HUBERT. Then there is some mistake in timing of about 12 hours.
Mr. CRAFARD. That is what I was saying. I've lost some time there.
Mr. HUBERT. Perhaps it needs a lithe clarifying. Let me touch on another point.
Mr. CRAFARD. It seems to me I got mixed up on my routes going out of Oklahoma City.
Mr. HUBERT. Think about it a moment and let me touch upon something else before we go back to it. I think you said that you heard, that Ruby had done this on the morning of the 25th.
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right,
Mr. HUBERT. Now, could you tell us how you heard it? Did you hear it by newspaper, radio, television, or what?
Mr. CRAFARD. I'm not sure whether it was over the radio or whether I saw it in the newspaper.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, that must have made a terrific impact on you, because, after all, that was your boss.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. So I suggest that if you will just put your mind to it, you can tell us pretty well how it was and where it was.
Was it in a restaurant or automobile?
Mr. CRAFARD. I think I saw it in the newspaper, saw something about Oswald and then the assassination or something like that, and then I read the rest of it.
Mr. HUBERT. You bought a newspaper?
Mr. CRAFARD. I think so. I must have.
Mr. HUBERT. Didn't you keep it?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don't believe so because I didn't have one with me when I got into Clare.
Mr. HUBERT. And it was morning?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; it must have been. It was about 8 in the morning.
Mr. HUBERT. 8 in the morning?
Mr. CRAFARD. About that, somewhere.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you with anybody, do you know?

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Mr. CRAFARD. I believe I was walking through a small town.
Mr. HUBERT. What was your reaction to it?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was pretty hard to believe.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you tell anybody about it?
Mr. CRAFARD. I think something was said to somebody I was riding with about it or something. Somebody picked me up shortly after I saw it, somebody I was riding with, and we had stopped in a cafe or something. I am pretty sure I discussed it with the person I was riding with.
Mr. HUBERT. You are pretty sure now?
Mr. CRAFARD. The fact that I stated to him that it seemed almost impossible to believe. It seemed to be awfully hard to believe it.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you tell that person that you knew him?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you tell that person that you had started to hitchhike up?
Mr. CRAFARD. I to1d him I had worked for him, that I had left the day after Kennedy was shot, coming up from Texas.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he say?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't recall.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you with that person very long? Was he the one, for example, who took you into Mount Pleasant?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don't believe so.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, let me see. I think you have refreshed your memory to some extent. You tell us now you are quite sure it was a newspaper.
Mr. CRAFARD. I am pretty sure it was.
Mr. HUBERT. That gave you the first information.
Mr. CRAFARD. I still think that--I'm almost positive I got mixed up on my routes in Oklahoma City somewhere, or just out of Oklahoma City.
Mr. HUBERT. We will try to straighten out that route business a little later. You are quite clear that you arrived at Clare, Mich., about 9 o'clock?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. Was that your destination from the start?
Mr. CRAFARD. My main destination was about Kalkaska, Mich.
Mr. HUBERT. How far is that from Clare?
Mr. CRAFARD. It is about 3 hours running.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you stop on the night of the 25th, about 9 o'clock, at Clare?
Mr. CRAFARD. I stayed at my counsin's at Clare.
Mr. HUBERT. What is your cousin's name?
Mr. CRAFARD. Clifford Roberts.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the address?
Mr. CRAFARD. 307 East Seventh Street.
Mr. HUBERT. Were they expecting you?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. How long since you last saw them?
Mr. CRAFARD. At the time it had been, I think it had been, several years since I saw him at that time.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you know they were there?
Mr. CRAFARD. They wrote to my folks while I was living in Dallas, Oreg.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it-----
Mr. CRAFARD. Wait a minute; excuse me. I saw him before I went to work, before I went to work with the carnival. My sister told me where they was living at there.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you intend to stop with him that night or just to visit?
Mr. CRAFARD. Well, I figured when I got in there at that time of night, I knew what the road to Kalkaska was---it was pretty rough overnight, so I figured I would stop. I would be perfectly welcome.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did they recognize you?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you talk to them about the Ruby matter?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. We talked quite a bit of it that night.

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Mr. HUBERT. What was the nature of the conversation?
Mr. CRAFARD. About the fact that I told them I had worked for him. It was kind of a surprise to them to know somebody who worked for him; asked me what kind of a guy he was, and everything.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you tell them?
Mr. CRAFARD. What I could, the best I could, what kind of a guy he was.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you tell them under what circumstances--did you tell them the circumstances under which you had left?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes: told them how I had left.
Mr. HUBERT. Did they express any surprise about that?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; because they knew me.
Mr. HUBERT. They didn't seem to be concerned about it?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Who was there?
Mr. CRAFARD. There was my cousin and his wife.
Mr. HUBERT. Just the two?
Mr. CRAFARD. And their children.
Mr. HUBERT. How old are their children?
Mr. CRAFARD. The oldest one, I think, is 7 or 8, something like that.
Mr. HUBERT. No friends came over?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't believe there was anybody over that night.
Mr. HUBERT. You did stay there that night?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. What time did you go to bed?
Mr. CRAFARD. It must have been about an hour and a half after I got there, 2 hours.
Mr. HUBERT. And you slept through the night?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you remain there the next day?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe I went on up to Harrison.
Mr. HUBERT. Was that in the direction of Kalkaska?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; along the best traveled road.
Mr. HUBERT. What time did you leave Clare?
Mr. CRAFARD. Probably about 9:30 or 10 o'clock.
Mr. HUBERT. Did your cousin Roberts know your destination?
Mr. CRAFARD. He knew where I was going to go on to my sister's.
Mr. HUBERT. He knew you were going to hitchhike?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Had he been in touch with your sister, do you know?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't believe he had been in touch with her for quite a while.
Mr. HUBERT. I mean, did he know she was there?
Mr. CRAFARD. She might have told her that he was living up there---I think mother told my sister where he lived, or something.
Mr. HUBERT. What is the distance between Clare and your sister's place in Kalkaska, is it?
Mr. CRAFARD. Kalkaska, about 100, 120 miles.
Mr. HUBERT. Is that a rural community?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. No cities along that route?
Mr. CRAFARD. Well, there is one about 60 miles from it.
Mr. HUBERT. What is the name of it?
Mr. CRAFARD. Cadillac. It is about 60 miles from Traverse City.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have enough money at that time to get a bus ride in?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. You had about $4 or $5 left, didn't you?
Mr. CRAFARD. I had a couple of dollars left.
Mr. HUBERT. $2?
Mr. CRAFARD. $2 or $3.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you attempt to borrow any money from your cousin to take the trip?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he offer to give you any?

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Mr. CRAFARD. No; he was in no position to. He had a large family.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you make inquiry as to how much it would cost?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. I think you said that you knew that that was a bad road for hitchhikers.
Mr. CRAFARD. At night, I said.
Mr. HUBERT. It is all right in the day?
Mr. CRAFARD. Fairly decent road; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you make it that day into Kalkaska?
Mr. CRAFARD. I went up to Harrison that day and spent a couple of hours with an aunt I have in Harrison, and then went to Kalkaska.
Mr. HUBERT. What is her name?
Mr. CRAFARD. Jean Eaton.
Mr. HUNBERT. Is she married?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What is her married name?
Mr. CRAFARD. Eaton.
Mr. HUBERT. I see. Do you know her husband's first name?
Mr. CRAFARD. Ed.
Mr. HUBERT. Is he living with her so that it is Mrs. Ed Eaton?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Where does she live?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't know the name of the street she lives on. They get their mail through a post office box.
Mr. HUBERT. You spent a couple of hours there?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And you hitchhiked there?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. How far is Harrison from Kalkaska?
Mr. CRAFARD. About 90, 95 miles, I think.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you get to Kalkaska that night?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't recall whether I went that night or whether I stayed with my aunt and uncle that night.
Mr. HUBERT. We are talking now about Tuesday, the 26th of November.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember whether you got there Tuesday or Wednesday?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't remember, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember sleeping at your aunt's house?
Mr. CRAFARD. I have spent on several occasions, I have spent the night with my aunt and uncle.
Mr. HUBERT. I mean on that occasion.
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't remember for sure whether I stayed with my aunt.
Mr. HUBERT. I thought you said for a couple of hours there, and I was wondering whether you had slept there that night. You said you visited a couple of hours.
Mr. CRAFARD. I went up there, I got up there before the kids come home for lunch.
Mr. HUBERT, Did you stay 2 hours or more?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe I spent the rest of the day there.
Mr. HUBERT. And slept there?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so. Then I went up to my sister's the next day.
Mr. HUBERT. Did anybody--did your aunt and uncle have a car?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; he was working.
Mr. HUBERT. You weren't able to get a ride?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; not with them.
Mr. HUBERT. You had to hitchhike?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. HUBET. You didn't even at that point consider bus travel?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. So then you got to your sister's house on Wednesday, then?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. About what time of day?

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Mr. CRAFARD. It must have been about 2:30 or 3 o'clock in the afternoon, imagine.
Mr. HUBERT. She didn't know you were coming?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. That is in Kalkaska?
Mr. CRAFARD. She lives about, I think about 20 miles out of Kalkaska, or she did at that time.
Mr. HUBERT. So that when you got to Kalkaska you still had to go another 20 miles?
Mr. CRAFARD. About that, yes.
Mr. HUBERT. That was a rural road?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was about---most of it was a well-traveled road, one of the main roads through the State.
Mr. HUBERT. From Kalkaska to where she lived?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was then about two miles off the road.
Mr. HUBERT. She lives off the main highway?
Mr. CRAFARD. She did at that time.
Mr. HUBERT. Did she live in a log cabin or something of that kind?
Mr. CRAFARD. She was living in a farm house.
Mr. HUBERT. Farm house. About 20 miles from Kalkaska?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; a little place called Mancelona.
Mr. HUBERT. Mancelona?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. It is in County Antrim; isn't it?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I believe so.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you tell her about your experience?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What was her reaction?
Mr. CRAFARD. Well, about the same as everybody else.
Mr. HUBERT. Did she know about Ruby?
Mr. CRAFARD. I am not sure whether she did or not. They didn't have their radio or TV either, so I don't know. I think they had heard about it, but I am not sure.
Mr. HUBERT. But, in any case, she didn't know you had been working for him?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it at that place that the FBI man interviewed you?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What day was that?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is where he picked me up. He picked me up there on Thanksgiving Day.
Mr. HUBERT. What time did he pick you up? Did he arrest you?
Mr. CRAFARD. No. They came out the house about 7 o'clock Thanksgiving Day.
Mr. HUBERT. 7 o'clock at night?
Mr. CRAFARD. In the morning, and he had me go for an interview.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you go?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was about 10 miles from there. It is a little town where the police station was. I don't remember the name of the town.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know how they located you?
Mr. CRAFARD. How is that?
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know how they located you?
Mr. CRAFARD. Well, they went to my aunt's.
Mr. HUBERT. How did they----
Mr. CRAFARD. That is one thing I know.
Mr. HUBERT. How did they come to go to your aunt's?
Mr. CRAFARD. When I was in Dallas, I had got a letter from my cousin, I had left the envelope laying when I left there. They found her address.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean Roberts?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; my aunt's niece, Mickey--my aunt's daughter.
Mr. HUBERT. What is her name?
Mr. CRAFARD. Gail Eaton.
Mr. HUBERT. She is the one who lives in Harrison?

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Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. She had written you or you had written her?
Mr. CRAFARD. I had wrote her, and then she had wrote me.
Mr. HUBERT. The letter you wrote to her I don't think you mailed.
Mr. CRAFARD. I mailed a couple of them. One or two anyway.
Mr. HUBERT. I think you left one behind, didn't you?
Mr. CRAFARD. I might have; I am not sure.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what day they went to your aunt's house?
Mr. CRAFARD. From what I understood, it was the night before they talked to me.
Mr. HUBERT. And she told them, I suppose, that you were going up to your sister's house?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. And then the next morning they interviewed you?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did that interview take?
Mr. CRAFARD. About, I believe, 4 1/2 to 5 hours I talked to the men there. That is when they took me back out to the house, and then he asked me to go into Kalkaska the following morning and meet him so he could take some pictures with a Polaroid camera.
Mr. HUBERT. And he did so?
Mr. CRAFARD. He took some pictures, and I talked to him between an hour and a half and 2 hours again that morning.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he go over with you the details of your trip up by hitchhiking?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't believe he developed that too closely.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever been interviewed by the FBI since?
Mr. CRAFARD. I talked to an agent last Saturday at my home in Dallas, Oreg.
Mr. HUBERT. Other than that you have not talked----
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. I think this man who had interviewed you, this FBI man who interviewed you in Kalkaska, had asked you to keep in touch with them?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. How was that to be done?
Mr. CRAFARD. Dropping him a card or line letting him know where I was at to get in touch with me.
Mr. HUBERT. That is if you moved?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you stay with your sister?
Mr. CRAFARD. I was there a couple of days. Then I went back down to Clare. I think I spent the night there, and then I was going to go to Florida, and I was hitchhiking, and this guy picked me up, and he said it was pretty nasty out, and he said it was too cold and nasty out to hitchhike. He said, "I have got a room over here. I won't be using it tonight, and you'll be welcome to use it, and then I will bring you back on the road in the morning." I went out there with him, and he was working with an oil field drilling crew, and one of the men had quit, and they needed a man, so I went to work that night. Then I worked up until, with them up until, about the 17th or 18th of February.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was that?
Mr. CRAFARD. The main office was out of Mount Pleasant, Michigan. We were moving over the southern portion of the State of Michigan.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you let the FBI know where you were?
Mr. CRAFARD. I wrote to them and told them they could contact me through the North American Drilling office in Mount Pleasant, Michigan. When I left there in February I went to Dallas, Tex. I was at the trial, and then I went out to----
Mr. HUBERT. How did you go to Dallas?
Mr. CRAFARD. I hitchhiked.
Mr. HUBERT. Why did you go to Dallas?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was on a personal matter.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I didn't get that answer.
Mr. HUBERT. It was on a personal matter.

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Mr. CRAFARD. I was trying to locate my wife and children.
Mr. HUBERT. That was in February?
Mr. CRAFARD. Let's see.
Mr. HUBERT. I think you said you worked for them until--we may he able to clarify that. I just want to hit the highlights right now.
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe I left in March.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask this question. What is the name of the drilling company?
Mr. CRAFARD. North American Drilling Company. I spent a week or 2 weeks around Clare there before I left. I believe it was in March, the latter part of April.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You are sure you got that job by accident?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; it was purely accident.
Mr. HUBERT. You stayed with them until February, as I understand it?
Mr. CRAFARD. I worked with them until about the 18th of February.
Mr. HUBERT. Then you quit, or what happened?
Mr. CRAFARD. I had bought a rattletrap of a car, and we had moved locations, and I had car trouble. I was staying about 40 miles from where we was working, and I had car trouble and I missed out, I missed about five days of work, and in the meantime they got another man.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This drilling company was drilling for oil?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, when did you get the subpena to appear at Ruby's trial?
Mr. CRAFARD. I got that in Dallas, Tex. at the courthouse, at the county courthouse.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, your trip to Dallas was not for the purpose of attending the trial?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; not--mostly no.
Mr. HUBERT. You say not mostly.
Mr. CRAFARD. That wasn't my main reason for going.
Mr. HUBERT. Had you been connected by anybody to appear at the trial prior to the time you left the North American Drilling Company?
Mr. CRAFARD. Eva Grant's sister had wrote to my cousin, Mrs. Eaton, wanting information as to my whereabouts so they could locate me.
Mr. HUBERT. And she gave it to them?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; she refused to.
Mr. HUBERT. But your cousin let you know?
Mr. CRAFARD. They told me about it.
Mr. HUBERT. What did you do?
Mr. CRAFARD. Then when I arrived in Dallas, I went up to find out what it was all about. I didn't know for sure what it was about.
Mr. HUBERT. Who did you go to see?
Mr. CRAFARD. I went to the courthouse, and then I talked--the first one I saw was Andy. Then I talked to the lawyer, Mr. Phil Burleson, and he subpenaed me then.
Mr. HUBERT. About what date was that, do you know?
Mr. CRAFARD. March 10, I believe it was; yes; it was on my birthday.
Mr. HUBERT. Did it take you from the 18th of February or so to get to Dallas?
Mr. CRAFARD. I stayed around Clare for, I think, a couple a week or two. It was, let's see, it must have been about the 7th of March because I was only 3 days going from Clare to Dallas.
Mr. HUBERT. Your purpose in going to Dallas was to try to find your wife?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you succeed in that, by the way?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. You haven't yet?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. When you saw Burleson then, he told you he wanted you to remain?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he place you under that subpena?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

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Mr. HUBERT. Did they use you at the trial?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us roughly what the substance of your testimony was at the trial?
Mr. CRAFARD. To the effect that I had took the pictures of the "Impeach Earl Warren" sign and to the effect that he had only planned on shipping one of his dogs to California.
Mr. HUBERT. That is all that was brought out?
Mr. CRAFARD. That was about the main gist of my testimony.
Mr. HUBERT. You were a witness for the defense, I take it?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you subjected to any cross-examination?
Mr. CRAFARD. I think there were two or three questions put to me on cross- examination.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you get to talk to Ruby then?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you see Eva?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And Andy Armstrong?
Mr. CRAFARD. How is that?
Mr. HUBERT. Andy.
Mr. CRAFARD. I saw him before--I don't believe I talked to him after I appeared on the witness stand.
Mr. HUBERT. He was the first one you contacted?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; he was the first one I saw.
Mr. HUBERT. In Dallas. Did you go over to the club?
Mr. CRAFARD. No. I went to the courthouse.
Mr. HUBERT. And you saw him at the courthouse?
Mr. CRAFARD. Andy saw me; I didn't see him. Andy saw me and he recognized me.
Mr. HUBERT. I see. Who else did you talk to while you were in Dallas on this last occasion?
Mr. CRAFARD. I talked to the Grants, to the Rubys--the brothers and sisters.
Mr. HUBERT. What about?
Mr. CRAFARD. I talked to them after the trial was over, after I had appeared on the witness stand.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn't talk to them before?
Mr. CRAFARD. No. I think I had saw Miss Grant one time, and at the time when I did Burleson was standing right beside me when I spoke to her, let her know I was there.
Mr. HUBERT. Did she know where you could be located?
Mr. CRAFARD. She didn't know, but Burleson did. While I was in Dallas, you mean?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. CRAFARD. Burleson knew.
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. CRAFARD. Burleson knew.
Mr. HUBERT. She didn't call you to locate you?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. How long were you in Dallas before you testified?
Mr. CRAFARD. Let's see, I landed in Dallas on Sunday. I was in Dallas for about 4 days all together before I testified.
Mr. HUBERT. How long were you in Dallas before you contacted Burleson or met Burleson?
Mr. CRAFARD. I arrived in Dallas Sunday, and I contacted Burleson Tuesday.
Mr. HUBERT. And you testified on Thursday?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And you left on what day?
Mr. CRAFARD. I think it was, I think I spent--let's see, I left Dallas the following Wednesday, I believe it was. I went to California where I stopped and visited a very good friend of the family's. I spent--I arrived there Thursday night about 2 o'clock in the morning. He had just got home from work, and

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then I spent Thursday night, Friday, Saturday night there, and then I left there Sunday. They were making a trip up north, and they took me up north quite a ways with them, and then I hitchhiked up home.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you were in Dallas, Tex, where did you stay?
Mr. CRAFARD. I stayed at the mission most of the time.
Mr. HUBERT. What mission is that?
Mr. CRAFARD. City mission.
Mr. HUBERT. Where is it located?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it is on Ervay Street.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean it is a religious organization?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Runs sort of a hostel or hotel for----
Mr. CRAFARD. Place for guys on the road to stay.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you manage for money on your trip from up north to Dallas, and Dallas on down west, and then again north to Washington?
Mr. CRAFARD. I had some money when I left Dallas, when I left Clare.
Mr. HUBERT. How much did you have.
Mr. CRAFARD. $40, $50, something like that.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you work at anytime after you left Clare?
Mr. CRAFARD. Oh, no; I'didn't work after I left Clare.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn't earn any money during that period?
Mr. CRAFARD. No. I haven't worked since about the 18th of February, I think it is, at a job.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who else did you see in Dallas beside the lawyers, Andy Armstrong, and the Ruby family?
Mr. CRAFARD. I saw the people around the mission, and i say, I did work i day in Dallas, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Where, and how much did you make?
Mr. CRAFARD. I made about $7; I think I got about $7 out of it. It was out of the labor pool.
Mr. HUBERT. How much money did you have when you got to Dallas?
Mr. CRAFARD. I was just about broke when I got into Dallas.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you manage to live?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is why I said I stayed at the mission.
Mr. HUBERT. It still required money for food.
Mr. CRAFARD. It is a place where they feed you and they give you a place to sleep.
Mr. HUBERT. Did anybody in Dallas give you any money?
Mr. CRAFARD. After I had appeared, after I had appeared on the witness stand, Eva Grant gave me, her and her brother all together, I think gave me $8.
Mr. HUBERT. $8?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right; all total.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the purpose of that?
Mr. CRAFARD. Money to eat on.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ask them or they asked you?
Mr. CRAFARD. They asked me how I was living, and I told them, and I told them---they give me money to eat on, and I spent Monday, Tuesday--Sunday, I think Sunday, Monday and Tuesday night that I slept in the Carousel Club. They gave me the key to the club so I could stay there.
Mr. HUBERT. Who did; Eva?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was the club in operation at that time?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. That was after you testified?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Had it been changed from the time you had seen it before?
Mr. CRAFARD. There had been no redecoration or anything. I don't think they called it the Carousel. There was a Club de Copa or something, they had run it a little while, and then they revoked her liquor license.
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But the interior of the club, did you notice any changes?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.

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Mr. GRIFFIN. Was the safe still there?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Where was Andy; was he still there?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; Andy was working some place else; I have no idea where.
Mr. HUBERT. When you left, did you return the key to her?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see Ralph Paul or George Senator while you were there?
Mr. CRAFARD. I saw George Senator at the courthouse, that was all.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn't see Ralph Paul or talk to him?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't remember seeing him. I know I never talked to him, and I don't remember seeing him.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you talk to any of the strippers or the waitresses who used to be there?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Think hard now. Was there anybody else that you talked to in Dallas outside of the people you saw in connection with the Ruby trial?
Mr. CRAFARD. These people that I saw around the mission there I talked to is all, and the. police department. I asked them to put a tracer on my wife.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see Mr. Case?
Mr. CRAFARD. Case?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Bob Case.
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. You just arrived in Dallas from Oregon, I think when you were served with these papers to come here?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I had been home for a little while.
Mr. HUBERT. How long?
Mr. CRAFARD. I had arrived there, I had been there, let's see, I got in Monday--it would have been 2 weeks this last Monday that I had been home. I spent my time looking for a job since I have been home.
Mr. HUBERT. You haven't found any yet?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever been in trouble in your life in the sense of being charged with any offense?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; sir, I have got two times that I have been picked up, picked up on a rag charge.
Mr. HUBERT. What?
Mr. CRAFARD. Vagrancy charge; Findlay, Ohio, and drunk in a public street in Dallas, Oreg. That is the only two times I have ever been charged.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you actually prosecuted on those two cases?
Mr. CRAFARD. I paid a fine on the drunk on public street, and the other one I was just--I spent 72 hours in the jail and was let go.
Mr. HUBERT. The police have not reported to you on the tracer on your wife?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When was your wife last known to you to be in Dallas, Tex.?
Mr. CRAFARD. I didn't know she was in Dallas. I had an idea she was around the Dallas area somewhere.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you left Dallas on November 23, did you have an idea that your wife was around the area at that time?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you come to believe that she was around the area?
Mr. CRAFARD. Well, I had wrote to my folks asking them for information, if she had been in touch with them, if they knew where she was, and I had a cousin who had been back out west and visited my folks and they told me, they was telling me, they had gotten a letter from this woman in Cuba, Mo., where my wife had been, so when I left Michigan, I went to Cuba, Mo., and I talked to the woman there and, as far as she knew, my wife had went back to the Dallas area, the last she knew of her.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long had that been?
Mr. CRAFARD. It had been, this was Christmastime.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is when the woman in Cuba, Mo., had seen her?
Mr. CRAFARD. That was the last time.

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Mr. GRIFFIN. Were the children still with the woman in Cuba, Mo.
Mr. CRAFARD. No; the children was with my wife; she had the children.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But you didn't contact her brother?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I tried to, but I couldn't find out. Didn't know where he was living or had no way of getting in touch with him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Had he moved from the last time?
Mr. CRAFARD. The last I knew where he was at he was working on a ranch, and I never could get ahold of the ranch. Nobody had ever heard of it out around Carrollton, and nobody had ever heard of the place. I knew he was there because I had been out there with him when he got the job, but I didn't have any transportation, so I had no way of going out there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, you thought she was in the Dallas area. Where specifically in the Dallas area did you have in mind?
Mr. CRAFARD. There is a little place about 30 miles out of Dallas called, I think, Greenfield, or something like that, that I was told she was around. She had got a letter from her in that area in February.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who had?
Mr. CRAFARD. This daughter of this woman in Missouri.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And did the woman, did she, show you the letter?
Mr. CRAFARD. She couldn't find the letter, she couldn't locate it. She put it up in some of her stuff and couldn't locate the letter at that time.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you check out around Greenville for her?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I didn't get out to Greenville.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you contact the Greenville police?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you tell the Dallas tracer people?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. That the last you had heard she was in Greenville?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You didn't know until you arrived at Cuba, Mo., that your wife might be in Dallas, did you?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So when you left Michigan on your way to Dallas you really didn't have any idea that your wife would be in Dallas. You expected she might be in Cuba, Mo.
Mr. CRAFARD. When I left Michigan my destination was Cuba, Mo., as far as I knew. As far as I knew, my wife was in Cuba, Mo. or around there some place close.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you left Cuba, Mo., the only information you had about your wife was that she was somewhere near, might be somewhere in the vicinity of Greenville, Tex.?
Mr. CRAFARD. Around the Dallas area is what--she had got this letter from Greenville, and she was in the vicinity, as far as they knew, in the Greenville area of Dallas.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The letter was not written by your wife?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; it had been written by my wife to this daughter of this woman in Cuba, Mo.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What were you told the letter said?
Mr. CRAFARD. Just, she just said, she didn't say anything about what the letter said. She just said it had been wrote from Greenville, and that this girl had wrote back to my wife, and the letter had come back, nobody at that address, no forwarding address.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What direction is Greenville from Dallas?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is out sort of the northeast of Dallas, about 35 miles.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What route is that on?
Mr. CRAFARD. I am not sure. I don't think it is on a main route. It is, I think, on a smaller highway.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you ever heard of this place Greenville, Tex., before?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I knew approximately where it was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How had you happened to hear of it?
Mr. CRAFARD. When my wife and I were in Dallas, I had worked for this

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outfit that built these portable buildings and they built some over in that area.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know of any friends your wife had in Greenville?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This letter that the woman in Cuba, Mo., received, did it give any indication of how your wife was supporting herself or what her connection was with the party that she was staying with?
Mr. CRAFARD. To my knowledge, it didn't.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The woman in Cuba, how did she happen to be friendly with your wife?
Mr. CRAFARD. My wife was on the road hitchhiking when she picked her up with the boys. Her and her husband picked my wife up with the boys.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When was that?
Mr. CRAFARD. That was about 6 months--it would have been in the middle of the summer last year.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I mean, did your wife keep in contact with this woman from time to time?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. She left, the wife, the Children with this woman for a while, and she was getting a child-support check for her oldest son, my stepson, and she turned the check over to the woman in Missouri.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did the woman come to know about your mother in Dallas, Oreg.?
Mr. CRAFARD. I guess my wife said something about it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, had the woman in Cuba, Mo., written your mother to tell your mother that your wife had left, or something, or what was the occasion for that?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe she wrote trying to find out what kind of a person my wife was more than anything. I be1ieve that was her main reason for writing my mother. From the information I got from her, when my wife would come back, my wife would be gone 2 to 3 weeks, she would come back at least once a month with the check, to sign the check and turn it over to the woman, and she said when my wife did come back she apparently did appear to have quite a bit of money, and always had new clothes and real good clothes, but she said she appeared--she did not. appear to have a job of any kind, because of the fact she would come back maybe on a weekend or maybe it would be in the middle of the week.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What is the name of this woman in Cuba, Mo.?
Mr. CRAFARD. I can't even remember right now. I have got it wrote down in that little book, but I can't even remember right now.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When was it that the lady in Cuba last saw your wife?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was Christmas Day.
Mr. HUBERT. Cuba, Mo.?
Mr. GRIFFIN. She saw her Christmastime?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. My wife come back and got the children on Christmas Day.
Mr. GRIFFIN. She also got a letter from her about that time?
Mr. CRAFARD. The letter was received after that, I understand.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When the woman in Cuba, Mo., saw your wife at Christmas-time, did your wife say where she was going?
Mr. CRAFARD. As far as the woman knew, she was going to Texas.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know a gift by the name of Gloria that was with Ruby on November 20?
Mr. CRAFARD. I couldn't give you any particular dates, but I know a girl Gloria that he took out, that he went out with a couple of times.
Mr. HUBERT. Is she the same girl as you have identified in this exhibit which has been marked----
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. 5200-A, -B, -C, -D, and -E?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. That is Gloria McDonald?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The last name is McDonald.

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Mr. CRAFARD. I didn't know what her last name was, I couldn't say, but her first name was Gloria.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did she live?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was either Oak Lawn, the Oak Lawn area, or the Oak Ridge area, I am not sure which.
Mr. HUBERT. Did she live alone or with someone?
Mr. CRAFARD. As far as I knew, she was living alone.
Mr. HUBERT. Let me ask when you say something like that, do you mean you don't know or you have some reason to believe she was living alone?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't know, I will put it that way.
Mr. HUBERT. You really don't know?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Because the way you put it, you see, you infer she is living alone, and if you really have no knowledge about it then you don't know.
Mr. CRAFARD. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. She was the girl that you had breakfast with one morning at the Lucas B&B; isn't that correct?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When, how long after you began to work for Jack Ruby, did you become aware that Gloria was somebody whom he saw from time to time?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe Gloria come to the club in answer to an ad, I am not sure. But I believe that is where, how, I met her, when she come to the club in answer to one of the ads we put in the paper.
Mr. HUBERT. Along those lines now, is it your impression that Ruby didn't know this girl Gloria prior to the time she answered an ad?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is my impression, yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember when she came in?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, I don't.
Mr. HUBERT. But your thought is that Ruby did not know her prior to the time that you went to work for Ruby?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is what I understood.
Mr. HUBERT. When we say Gloria we are talking about this girl with the striped dress you have identified in Exhibits 5200-A, -B, -C, -D, and -E ; right?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How many waitresses did Jack employ at any one time?
Mr. CRAFARD. Counting the cocktail gifts, there were about six or seven gifts.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, of these six or seven girls did any of them--were any of them employed at the Carousel Club at the entire time you were there?
Mr. CRAFARD. Most of them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How many girls left his employ during the time you were there?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe there was two or three left his employ, not counting Jada, the stripper.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember which girls left his employ?
Mr. CRAFARD. One I was with quite often there, we had meals together.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was her name, again?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't remember her name. I believe there was one other one there. I would like to change one thing. The name you mentioned, the name of that girl, I never did remember the name, the name Gloria. She worked as a cocktail gift for 2 or 3 nights, and she never made anything at all, couldn't make enough money to buy cigarettes with, and she left.
Mr. HUBERT. The girl in Exhibit 5200-A, -B, -C, -D, and -E was Gloria, wasn't it?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And she was there only 3 days?
Mr. CRAFARD. She worked for him for 2 or 3 nights, and then she left. She couldn't even make enough money to buy cigarettes.
Mr. HUBERT. But then she continued to see him on a social basis?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Wherewas she working, do you know?
Mr. CRAFARD. How is that?
Mr. HUBERT. After she left him where did she go to work?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't know.

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Mr. HUBERT. Do you know whether she went to work or you just don't know anything about her?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't know.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you any indication that Jack was supporting her in any way?
Mr. CRAFARD. I have no idea.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When Jack placed these ads for waitresses, was it that he needed help?
Mr. CRAFARD. He had to run a continuous ad for girls. I think mostly he was wanting to get girls to start them as strippers.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And he would sort of start them out as waitresses first, is that it, if they showed any prospects----
Mr. CRAFARD. He did with a couple of them, yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the waitresses, did he have some requirements for the waitresses as to their looks?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't know. They were all fairly nice-looking girls, but I wouldn't say they were real beauties or anything.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he provide them with uniforms?
Mr. CRAFARD. About a week or 2 weeks before President Kennedy was assassinated, he bought uniforms for the girls. But prior to that they hadn't wore uniforms.
Mr. GRIFFIN. They had no uniforms?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But they did have a common style of dress?
Mr. CRAFARD. Most of them wore slacks and a blouse or a sweater.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to mark this "Washington, D.C., Exhibit 5201, April 1964, Deposition, C. L. Crafard," and I will sign my name to it.
(Photograph marked Crafard Exhibit No. 5201 for identification.)
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, Larry, I am going to show you what I have marked as Exhibit 5201. You will notice the picture of a girl there, a brunette, scantily clad. Is she wearing the uniform that you referred to that Jack bought?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize the girl in that photograph?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't believe so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever see anybody around the Carousel in an outfit like that?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Does that appear to be a picture of the inside of the Carousel Club?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not as I know it, no. We didn't have all this back bar.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize anybody in that photograph, 5201?
Mr. CRAFARD. This man looks familiar, but----
Mr. GRIFFIN. The man at the table looks familiar to you?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you probe your memory some and try to tell us why he looks familiar?
Mr. CRAFARD. He looks like somebody I saw in the Carousel Club.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would he be one of the men from Los Angeles that you referred to?
Mr. CRAFARD. It could be. I wouldn't swear to it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How often do you think that you saw that man around the Carousel Club?
Mr. CRAFARD. It wasn't but a couple of times. It couldn't have been.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that a picture of any club that you recognize in Dallas?
Mr. CRAFARD. None that I have ever been in. I was never in any of the other clubs excpet to the Carousel and the Vegas.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you be sure that that is not a picture of any part of the Vegas?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, it is not a picture of the Vegas. They didn't have a back bar there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you see the man who appears to be a bartender in that picture?

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Mr. CRAFARD. I should know him because it looks like he looks like an older fellow who was around the club quite often with Jack, but I can't remember.
Mr. HUBERT. Let the record show that the witness was referring to the picture identified as Exhibit 5201.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember a fellow by the name of Ryan, who was friendly with Jack Ruby, and who also went by the name of Roy William Pike?
Mr. CRAFARD. William Ryan is familiar, but this other man, it wouldn't be Mickey?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Mickey Ryan. Is that Mickey Ryan that worked the bar?
Mr. CRAFARD. I couldn't say. The picture is really--if I would see the man together I might be able to----
Mr. HUBERT. When you say the man in the picture, which man are you talking about?
Mr. CRAFARD. The man who appears to be a bartender.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me see if I understand. Do you make some association in your mind between the picture of the bartender here and the fellow you remember as Mickey Ryan?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. There is quite a similarity.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But you are not---
Mr. CRAFARD. I am not positive.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know of a place in Dallas called the Gun Club?
Mr. CRAFARD. I have heard mention of a place by that name, but I have never been there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever meet any of Jack's friends from Chicago?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I know of.
Mr. HUBERT. Let me ask you a bit more about the man seated at the table in the foreground of the picture identified as Exhibit 5201. Did I understand you to say he bore a resemblance to someone you had seen before?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And that someone was who?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't----
Mr. HUBERT. It was suggested to you that it might have been one of the people you identified as, earlier in this deposition as, having come from California and as having come in to see Ruby on several occasions, and to sit down and chat for a little while and then he would go off with them. Do you remember that testimony?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, is that man seated at the table as described by me a moment ago possibly one, of those men?
Mr. CRAFARD. It could possibly be, yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What is it about him that refreshes your memory so that you are able to say that he could possibly be that man from California?
Mr. CRAFARD. Mostly his face; his facial features mostly.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Larry, did Jack Ruby know your full name?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did he know you?
Mr. CRAFARD. As Larry.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he know your last name at all?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't believe so. I don't recall telling him. I did--I told him my last name when that letter came in from my cousin in Michigan, and he gave it to me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did Eva Grant know where to look for you?
Mr. CRAFARD. I am not sure except for the fact, like I say, I had left an envelope with my cousin's address at the Carousel.
Mr. HUBERT. Andy knew your last name, didn't he?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did Andy come to learn your last name?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe on this same occasion with the letter.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I asked you about the show "How Hollywood Makes Movies." What kind of a show was that?
Mr. CRAFARD. That was, it showed a few of the different tricks and stunts that was used in moviemaking process, such as shooting a mirror without breaking

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the mirror, or shooting a glass off the bar counter, and how they broke a chair over a man's head and how a chair or table broke when a man was knocked into it, such as that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How many actors did they have in this show?
Mr. CRAFARD. There was, I believe, six Hollywood personnel all together.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did the show last in terms of each performance?
Mr. CRAFARD. The show was approximately about 45 minutes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How much did they charge for admission?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe they was charging 75 cents, if I remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who conceived of the show?
Mr. CRAFARD. As far as I know, from what I knew of it, it was Craven and Miles.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What do you know about Craven, what was his background?
Mr. CRAFARD. All I know he come from Hollywood, was supposed to be some producer from Hollywood.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And how about the Miles fellow?
Mr. CRAFARD. Deke Miles, as far as I know, was a director from Hollywood, a Hollywood director.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to decide to go to Dallas, Tex., in the fall of 1963?
Mr. CRAFARD. Because I knew there was one of the biggest fairs in the country held in Dallas, Tex. and I had some friends working over at Dallas, Tex., and I figured this would be as good a place to get a job with a carnival as anywhere.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to go to Dallas the first time you moved there the year before?
Mr. CRAFARD. I was going there to have a reconciliation with my wife.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And you stayed about 3 months; is that it?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; about that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you live with her at that time?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you live?
Mr. CRAFARD. Letot Trailer Park on Lombardy Lane.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did one of you own a house trailer?
Mr. CRAFARD. We rented a house trailer.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you drive an automobile?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When Ruby bought the lumber from the dance-band show that closed, what was he going to use that lumber for?
Mr. CRAFARD. Remodeling on the inside of his Carousel Club.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he use it for that purpose?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he do with the lumber?
Mr. CRAFARD. He stored it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did he store it?
Mr. CRAFARD. Downstairs below the Carousel Club.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he make any effort to remodel?
Mr. CRAFARD. He was doing some remodelling while I was there, building a cloakroom. That was about all that was being done, building a cloakroom, while I was there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Jack Ruby ever away from his Carousel all day?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't remember a day that I didn't see him at least once during the day.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You do?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't, I say. I don't remember a day.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But ordinarily Jack would come about 11:30 in the morning----
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Stay just a short while----
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And would be gone all day until sometime in the late evening?
Mr. CRAFARD. Usually; sometimes he would come back in the middle of the afternoon for a little while, or maybe he wouldn't come back until after the club opened at 7:30.

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Mr. GRIFFIN. What did Jack actually have to do to manage the Carousel?
Mr. CRAFARD. That I couldn't really say.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did it appear he had very much to do?
Mr. CRAFARD. As far as the management of the club, to my knowledge, it shouldn't have took him more than 3 hours a day at the most, that is, including all the bookwork be would have to do.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he do the bookwork?
Mr. CRAFARD. He kept a set of books, but he had a bookkeeper to keep his books, an accountant.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I mean--you mean he personally kept the books or somebody else made the entries?
Mr. CRAFARD. Andrew made most of the entries.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, during the 6 weeks or 2 months that you were there, how many different strippers did he have?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was mostly the same girls. He fired one and hired another one.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was the one that he fired?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was Jada.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And who did he hire in her place?
Mr. CRAFARD. Little Lynn.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long after he fired Jada did Little Lynn come on?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was 2 or 3 days between them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Could there have been more than that?
Mr. CRAFARD. It might have been a week, I don't believe so--I don't believe it was much more than that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you present during the incident that resulted in the firing of Jada?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe there were several different incidents that built up to that event.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What were they, as you recall?
Mr. CRAARD. I don't know most of them, but the one instance I believe, Jack shut the lights out on her as she went too far with her disrobing.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And then did they have a right of some sort afterwards?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe there was; yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you present?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe I was in the club, but I don't know--I didn't know what went on even.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long had you known Little Lynn before she was hired as a stripper?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe I met her one day and she was hired the next evening, something like that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Had Jack known her before?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't believe so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about her husband, Bruce Carlin, did you meet him?
Mr. CRAFARD. I met him at the same time I met Little Lynn.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How often did Bruce use to come to the club?
Mr. CRAFARD. When Little Lynn went to work for the club at first he was there almost every night--he was there every night.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did he get along with Jack?
Mr. CRAFARD. I never seen any difficulty between them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How would you describe Bruce Carlin?
Mr. CRAFARD. He seemed like a pretty likable young fellow to me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk with him?
Mr. CRAFARD. Slightly; not very much.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What time would he generally come and what time would he leave?
Mr. CRAFARD. He would usually, when he come in, he would be there when Little Lynn was on the stage, and he would leave, and she would go back in time for her to come back on the stage, and he would come back in again.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he and Little Lynn go out some place together?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe they went out a couple of times between her acts. I don't remember.

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Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Little Lynn remain around the club while Bruce was out?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; most of the time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long would you say Little Lynn worked for Jack?
Mr. CRAFARD. Oh, man; I believe it was 2 or 3 weeks. I am not sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So he had the same group of strippers except that Little Lynn replaced Jada?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. He had three different M.C.'s?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And Billy DeMar was one of them?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And the M.C. is the same person as the comedian?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the band? Did he have the same band all the way through?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So you would say that while you were there there wasn't any other turnover in personnel?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That you knew of.
I think you mentioned on two nights you ran the Vegas Club all by yourself.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When were those two nights?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't remember the dates. It was during the week, week nights. The one night I was the only one at the club, I didn't even have a band, all we had was the jukebox.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the bartender?
Mr. CRAFARD. I was doing the bartending.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And taking the tickets also?
Mr. CRAFARD. We didn't have any cover charge that night, just a jukebox and beer. The next night we had the band, and I had a waitress.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long was that before the assassination of the President?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that was the week before, but I am not sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the reason that Jack didn't have anybody to run the Vegas Club?
Mr. CRAFARD. The club wasn't making any money. During the week it didn't make hardly any money, and that was the slowest night of the week for the club, and his sister was sick one night, so he had me go over and run the Vegas Club the first night, and the next night his sister was sick again, and I only had the band and a waitress with me at night.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was his sister in the hospital or anything while you were employed there?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe she was. She was in the hospital--I think she was in the hospital, but when, I'm not sure. I'm not sure whether she was or not.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see her after the two nights you worked in the Vegas Club?
Mr. CRAFARD. I think I saw her over at the Vegas Club two or three nights later, but I'm not sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you meet Pauline Hall?
Mr. CRAFARD. Who?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you meet a woman named Pauline Hall?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How many times did you see her, would you say?
Mr. CRAFARD. All together I believe I saw her about four different times.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you describe her physically?
Mr. CRAFARD. Fairly nice looking woman, I would say maybe in her mid-thirties--a little older, but a nice build, and what I saw of her, and when I talked to her, she had a fairly nice personality.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there any woman at the Vegas Club who was employed there who was noticeably heavy, who was fat?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't recall of seeing one.

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Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the Carousel, did he have anybody employed, any woman employed at the Carousel Club who was noticeably fat?
Mr. CRAFARD. There was a colored woman by the name of Alice who more or less took care of the coffee and the pizzas, was real heavy.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you saw--do you know if Eva Grant worked at the Vegas any nights after the two nights that you worked there?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don't.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know anything about the man who runs the Colony Club, Abe Weinstein?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I--I don't. I believe I met the man on one occasion.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you meet him?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe I met him at the Carousel Club. He was the one who got--Jack hired Little Lynn through him. I believe it was that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were Jack and Abe Weinstein friendly?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I wouldn't say so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did Jack happen to hire Little Lynn through Abe?
Mr. CRAFARD. He needed a girl, and Abe had one that he didn't need, and he knew Jack needed girls through the union setup, so he told Jack about her, brought her over and introduced her.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Had Little Lynn been a stripper at Abe Weinstein's place?
Mr. CRAFARD. I understand she was an amateur.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever talk with Jack about the amateur nights that Weinstein had?
Mr. CRAFARD. There was some--I wouldn't say actually I discussed it with him. I should say he told me about it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did Jack tell you?
Mr. CRAFARD. Well, the fact that he---the unions had sent out an order for the clubs to stop the so-called amateur night, and Ruby had done so, but the other clubs in town hadn't, and they had failed to comply with the union order, and nothing had happened about it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When did Jack talk with you about that?
Mr. CRAFARD. When I showed up and went to work for him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And, to your knowledge, did Jack do--what was Jack doing about it?
Mr. CRAFARD. He was doing his best to get the union to force them to stop. He had stopped.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was he doing that you know of?
Mr. CRAFARD. He was writing to some of the bigger, some of the higher officials in the union, and friends of his that he knew that had position or something.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you you ever make any telephone calls for him or write any letters or mail any letters in connection with that?
Mr. CRAFARD. I might have mailed some letters, I don't recall it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about telephone calls?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't recall it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever drive Jack's car?
Mr. CRAFARD. No. At the time I was working for Ruby all I had, the only license I had, was a restricted motorcycle operator's license.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Other than that at that time that you--you had driven with Jack, hadn't you, in his car, a number of times?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And did Jack keep a lot of things in his car?
Mr. CRAFARD. His trunk was always full of stuff.
Mr. GRIFFIN. It was? How about the inside of the car?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not so much in the back.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What sort of things did he keep in the trunk?
Mr. CRAFARD. Pictures of girls, these twist boards he was pushing, and cards for advertisements, and cards with the picture
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to see these things? These things in the trunk of the car.
Mr. CRAFARD. I straightened the trunk of his car up several times at his request.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he keep any keys in the car?

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Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he had some in a box in the back.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of keys were they?
Mr. CRAFARD. From what I could tell more or less house keys, keys for doors.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were they loose or in a key chain?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe there was a bunch of them on a keyring.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You say he kept them in a box of some sort?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of a box did he keep them in?
Mr. CRAFARD. Just a cardboard box he had in the back of his car.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he keep anything else in that cardboard box?
Mr. CRAFARD. There was vitamin pills he was taking, and some of his diet stuff he kept in that box. He always had a bunch of soap in the car, bar soap.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he travel out of town or something that would cause him to need that stuff?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Why would he have kept those things in the trunk of the car?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he keep clothes in the car?
Mr. CRAFARD. He sometimes would have clothes in the car. Maybe he would put clothes in the car that he would take to the cleaner and they would bein there 2 or 3 days before he would take them in the cleaners.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where would they be in the trunk?
Mr. CRAFARD. Right in the trunk of the car.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about in the glove compartment of the car, did you ever have any occasion to go into the glove compartment?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he keep the trunk of his car locked?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And the times that you went into the trunk of the car, how did you get into the trunk?
Mr. CRAFARD. With the key.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where would you get the key?
Mr. CRAFARD. He would give it to me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he keep this key loose in his pocket or did he have it on a key chain?
Mr. CRAFARD. He had it on a key chain.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What else did he keep on that key chain?
Mr. CRAFARD. The keys for the car.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Anything else?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he had his apartment house key and the key to both clubs.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this actually a chain or a ring or what?
Mr. CRAFARD. A keyring.
Mr. GRIFFIN. To your knowledge did he keep---did he have any separate set of car keys that he kept on a separate ring or on a holder of any kind?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You say at one time you went down to his car and got a gun out of the car?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did he keep the gun?
Mr. CRAFARD. He kept that locked in the trunk.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever see any political literature of any sort in Jack's car or in the apartment or in the Carousel Club or any place else?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I can recall seeing.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever see any radio scripts of any sort that Jack had?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have access to his office?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did he maintain his desk?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was pretty much of a mess most of the time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this a desk that had drawers in it?

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Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And how about the drawers, did he keep things in the drawers?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, they was always full of stuff.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever have occasion to go through any of these drawers?
Mr. CRAFARD. I went through, completely through the desk on different occasions.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall seeing any kinds of political literature of any sort in there, and by political I don't mean just partisan, but, oh, anything that might have to do with any kind of issue or political philosophy?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't recall it, of seeing any.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever recall seeing anything from an organization called Lifeline or that was a piece of literature that was put out by an organization called Lifeline, or denominated Lifeline?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe there was a Lifeline book or magazine around once or twice. I never paid no attention to it; saw the book and that was all.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear Jack talk about any public events?
Mr. CRAFARD. No. About all we would discuss would be the club.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What sort of person was Ruby as far as a person who talked about what he was doing?
Mr. CRAFARD. He didn't talk too much about things, things he was doing, other than the club itself. He talked about what had to be done about the club, but other than that he didn't talk too much.
Mr. GRIFFIN. He didn't tell you what he was doing outside the club?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So as I understand it, atypical for Ruby, he appeared at the club before noon, wouldn't come back until late evening, he would spend 8 or 10 or what would presumably be waking hours away from the club each day.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he ever talk about what he was doing during that period of time?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear anything, or do you have any idea of what he was doing during that period of time?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever attempt to talk to him about what he was doing?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. About that time? Did you ever hear anybody else try to talk to him about it?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know Jack, or see Jack, or talk with him often enough so that you were able to form an opinion as to what Jack thought of his own sexual abilities?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I would have no opinion on that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he ever talk to you about other than the incidents that you mentioned earlier about his sexual conquests of his girl friends or something like that?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Griffin, how about his efforts to keep in shape physically, keep himself physically fit, and what not?
Mr. CRAFARD. I never saw any talk toward that effect. The only thing I knew for sure was he was dieting and trying to lose weight.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This is because he told you?
Mr. CRAFARD. I saw him take these diet pills.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have some sort of a schedule that he would take this on?
Mr. CRAFARD. He took it every morning.
Mr. GRIFFIN. About what time did he take them?
Mr. CRAFARD. Well, the way I understood, about the first thing he got up he would take this.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would he take it at the club or at home?
Mr. CRAFARD. At home; or sometimes at the club.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see him take it?

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Mr. CRAFARD. He was trying to take it--I guess he figured about noontime he would take his medicine, this diet stuff, instead of eating.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did this come in?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was in powder form, you use it in tea or coffee. It prevents you from getting hungry.
Mr. GRIFFIN. On the 22d when Jack came back after the President had been shot, the first time, did he make any telephone calls to any of his employees, to anybody, to people, to tell them not to come in?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; he had Andrew make calls.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Andy make all the calls?
Mr. CRAFARD. So far as I know; yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack---how about the newspapers, was anything done about notifying the newspapers that the club was not going to be open?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't know as it was Jack who done it--there was--he done so outside the club.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did anybody come to the club during the afternoon of the 22d?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't remember of anybody coming to the club.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did any of the strippers show up that day?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't remember, I don't recall any coming down.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did Andy stay at the club?
Mr. CRAFARD. He was there until about 15 or 20 minutes after Jack left.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The first time or the second?
Mr. CRAFARD. The first time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Which means that he would have left sometime before 4 o'clock?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you and Senator and Jack went out to take the picture of the Earl Warren sign, do you recall anything being in the car at that time?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have any newspapers in the car?
Mr. CRAFARD. I couldn't remember any.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you sit, in the front or back?
Mr. CRAFARD. I sat in the back seat.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack know how to use the Polaroid camera?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don't believe so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. It doesn't take anything to run that Polaroid camera.
Mr. CRAFARD. No; but I don't believe he had ever----
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it his camera?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was his camera. I don't believe he had ever took any patience to learn how to reload it. They can be quite complicated to reload if you don't know how to do it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have to reload after every shot?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How much film did you have on there?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was four pictures.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That you took?
Mr. CRAFARD. There was three pictures on it that I took. We thought there was four, and there was only three of them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And you didn't have to reload then, did you?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I didn't reload.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you all talk about when you drove out there?
Mr. CRAFARD. They were talking about this Earl Warren sign and a hate ad that Ruby had saw in the paper.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was Jack saying about it?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was something about the similarity of the numbers and the addresses of the two.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was Senator saying about it?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't recall what Senator said.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you get some idea of what the purpose was, why Jack was concerned about this?
Mr. GRIFFIN No; I was completely in the dark about it. Something, I believe, was said about the sign of "Impeach Earl Warren," business being done by maybe the Birch Society or something like that.

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Mr. GRIFFIN. What did Jack have to say about the Birch Society?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was either Jack or Senator said something about this sign, the "Impeach Earl Warren" sign being--having something to do with the "Birchites," or something like that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What were they going to do with this?
Mr. CRAFARD. I have no idea.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack say anything to you about what he had been doing the rest of the day?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; that was early in the morning when we took the pictures.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And you hadn't seen him for probably 12 hours?
Mr. CRAFARD. Something like that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Before that, and in the 12 hours that he had been gone, did he indicate or he or Senator indicate at all what had gone on?
Mr. CRAFARD. Something had been said about Jack not having gotten any sleep.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack indicate that he was doing this for anybody else, taking these pictures?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; he didn't give any indication about that fact.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Senator indicate what he had been doing that day?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was your attitude after you went out there on this picture-taking enterprise?
Mr. CRAFARD. Well, it was just something he wanted done. It meant no more to me than taking a picture at the club, actually, except I was kind of curious as to what the devil it was all about.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ask him?
Mr. CRAFARD. Something, they were talking about the "Impeach Earl Warren" sign. I made some suggestion about a box number, "Write for free information"; I made some suggestion about maybe writing for free information and finding out what I had come back, as I can recall.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What happened?
Mr. CRAFARD. Nothing more was said about that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was the box number written down or anything?
Mr. CRAFARD. The box number was on the photograph, that is all.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there a name on this, in addition to the box number, was there a name to anybody that you should write to?
Mr. CRAFARD. I think it was just "Impeach Earl Warren Committee" or something like that. I am not sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You don't remember?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Go ahead. You were going to say something else.
Mr. CRAFARD. I was going to say either that or it was an organization in Massachusetts somewhere or something that you had to write to. I know the sign had been printed in, I believe, Massachusetts.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What conversation did you have about this sign after you drove back?
Mr. CRAFARD. After going back in, we had coffee, and they said something about going down to the post office and checking this box number to see if they could find out who had the box or something, and they let me off at the Carousel. That was the last I saw of them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You mentioned in connection with that telephone call that you had had, the 3-hour telephone conversation with that girl----
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You thought there were some people in the background.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And you indicated you thought they might have been teenagers or something.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there something particular about the voices and so forth that made you think it was teenagers?
Mr. CRAFARD. Well, some of the giggles I heard were kind of silly, like some silly giggle that some of the young teenage girls would do or make.

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Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anybody telling this girl to get off the phone?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You also said something about the conversation was almost like you had, known this girl.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; it was. It was just the way we talked--I mean.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did she sound like she knew things about you?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; but it was like people that has known each other for a little while trying to get to know each other when talking, talking about their hobbies and things they like and things they didn't like, and such as that. It wasn't like two people who had just started talking over the telephone.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was the voice one that you had ever recognized at all?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; the voice meant nothing to me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I think you mentioned that Little Lynn called on Friday night sometime.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When was it that you think she called?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe---I said I believe it was 9 or 9:30, I believed it was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was it that she said when she called?
Mr. CRAFARD. She wanted to get ahold, of Jack, it was urgent or something to that effect.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And did she indicate she knew the club had been closed?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; she knew the club had been closed.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And at that time did she know how long it was going to be closed?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I know of.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You mean that you just don't know or that you have the impression she didn't know?
Mr. CRAFARD. I had the impression she didn't know any more about it than I knew.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was your impression?
Mr. CRAFARD. That we would be closed, Friday and Saturday.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Friday and Saturday. So her--when was this decision to close Friday and Saturday, when was that made?
Mr. CRAFARD. Friday afternoon.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And that was made before Andy began to make the telephone calls?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So that anybody who had been called by Andy would have known that the club was going to be closed Friday and, Saturday night?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember closing the club on Thursday night?
Mr. CRAFARD. On Thursday night?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Thursday night is the night before the assassination.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; we closed at the regular time, the usual time, 2:30 or 3 o'clock.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was done with the money that night?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe Jack had it with him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, Friday morning was there any money in the safe when you woke up, Friday morning?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. There was no money taken into the Carousel Club after Thursday night, was there?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you indicated before that Jack had the practice of depositing his money in the bank.
Mr. CRAFARD. As far as I know; yes. That is what I figure he was doing anyway, was depositing.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any information he was doing that?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I did, not know. definite, but that was what I figured he was doing, keep it with him, and then every 2 or 3 days he said he would go to the bank or something.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This North American Drilling Co., do you know anything about the people who manage that?

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Mr. CRAFARD. No; all I know about it is originally it was the old McClure Drilling Co. and the old Union Drilling Co. combined together to form the North American Drilling Co.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were those Michigan companies or were they people----
Mr. CRAFARD. Michigan companies.
Mr. GRIFFIN. We will continue tomorrow morning at 9 o'clock.