DELGADO
VOLUME VIII
TESTIMONY
OF NELSON DELGADO
The testimony of Nelson Delgado was taken on April 16, 1964, at the
Nelson Delgado, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified
as follows:
Mr. LIEBELER. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member of the legal
staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination of President
Kennedy. Staff members have been authorized to take the testimony of witnesses
by the Commission pursuant to authority granted to the Commission Executive
Order. No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress No.
137.
Under the Commission's rules for the taking of testimony, each witness is
to be provided with a copy of the Executive order and of the joint resolution,
and a copy of the rules that the Commission has adopted governing the taking of
testimony from witnesses.
The Commission will provide you copies of those documents. I cannot do it
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at
this point because I do not have them with me, but we will provide you with
copies of the documents to which I have referred.
Under the Commission's rules for the taking of testimony, each witness is
entitled to 3 days' notice, before he is required to come in and give testimony.
I don't think you had 3 days' notice.
Mr. DELGADO. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. But each witness can waive that notice requirement if he
wishes, and I assume that you would be willing to waive that notice requirement
since you are here; is that correct?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. We want to inquire of you this morning concerning the
association that the Commission understands you had with Lee Harvey Oswald
during the time that he was a member of the
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Before we get into the details of that, would you state
your full name for the record, please?
Mr. DELGADO. Nelson Delgado.
Mr. LIEBELER. You are now in the
Mr. DELGADO. That is correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. What is your rank?
Mr. DELGADO. Specialist 4.
Mr. LIEBELER. What is your serial number?
Mr. DELGADO. RA282 53 799.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where are you stationed?
Mr. DELGADO. I am stationed at Delta Battery, 4th Missile Battalion, 71st
Artillery, in
Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you been in the Army?
Mr. DELGADO. I joined the Army on November 1, 1960.
Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of work do you do in the Army?
Mr. DELGADO. I am a 94116, which means that I am a cook, with a linguist
digit, which means I can speak and write Spanish fluently. That is what that
last 6 in that digit means.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you go into the Army?
Mr. DELGADO. I went into the Army at
Mr. LIEBELER. And would you briefly tell us the training that you
received after you went into the Army and the places at which you were stationed
from the time you went into the Army up to the present time?
Mr. DELGADO. Well, in 1960, November 1960, I reported at
December the 15th, 14th, around there, I left for
Mr. LIEBELER. How long were you stationed in
Mr. DELGADO. I was stationed there approximately 2 years and a day.
Mr. LIEBELER. Were you stationed with the same outfit all that time?
Mr. DELGADO. No. Six months of the time I was with them; then I was
transferred to a line battery, C Battery, same missile battalion, same
artillery, and I was for a while the old man's driver, the captain's driver; and
then I was--I asked for a transfer to the messhall so I could get advanced in my
rating, and I was put in the messhall, then promoted there also, and I have been
a cook since then.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you stay with the C Battery until you left
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Approximately when did you leave
Mr. DELGADO. December the 8th. December
the 8th.
Mr. LIEBELER. 1962?
Mr. DELGADO. 1962, right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where were you stationed after that?
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Mr. DELGADO.
Mr. LIEBELER. And that is where you are assigned at the present time?
Mr. DELGADO. That is right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Are you working now as a cook?
Mr. DELGADO. That is right.
Mr. LIEBELER. You are also the mess steward of your messhall; is that
correct?
Mr. DELGADO. No, not mess steward; first cook.
Mr. LIEBELER First cook?
Mr. DELGADO. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. So you are not in charge of the messhall?
Mr. DELGADO. No; I am in charge of the personnel that work the day I am
working.
Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned that your MOS, I believe it is called, your
military occupation specialty, has an indication that you are qualified to speak
Spanish or another language; is that correct?
Mr. DELGADO. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you take tests while you were in the Army to establish
your proficiency in the Spanish language?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes, I took the language proficiency test, and also the OCS
test, the regular test they give you when you first go into the service, and I
passed them all. It's in my 201 files, my military records.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you pass the Spanish proficiency test?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes. In fact I was offered to be sent to
Mr. LIEBELER. To continue
your studies in connection with the Spanish language?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. You took the Spanish proficiency test when you came into
the Army at
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where were you born?
Mr. DELGADO. I was born in
Mr. LIEBELER. At what address? Where?
Mr. DELGADO. I believe it was
Mr. LIEBELER. Your parents still reside in
Mr. DELGADO.
Mr. LIEBELER. Your parents reside in
Mr. DELGADO. No. My parents are divorced. One lives in Puerto Rico, and
my mother lives in
Mr. LIEBELER. You lived at the address in Brooklyn that you just gave me
from the time you were born until the time you went into the Marine Corps; is
that correct?
Mr. DELGADO. That's correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us briefly where you went to school.
Mr. DELGADO. That's pretty hard to keep track of, because I was like a
yo-yo, back and forth from one parent to the other. But I went to school in P.S-
No. 2.
Mr. LIEBELER. In
Mr. DELGADO. In
Mr. LIEBELER. What city in
Mr. DELGADO.
Mr. LIEBELER. You have not graduated from high school?
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Mr. DELGADO. No. I have my high school graduation through USAFL.
Mr. LIEBELER. That is the United States Armed Forces Institute; is that
correct?
Mr. DELGADO. That's correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. When you dropped out of school here in
Mr. DELGADO. No. I held a job for a while at Van Dyk & Reeves, on
Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of a job was that?
Mr. DELGADO. It was just a regular laborer at an olive factory, making
Maraschino cherries and olives and so forth. And it lasted about 2 1/2 months,
and I joined the Marine Corps.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do both of your parents speak Spanish?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Are they both from
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Approximately when did they come from
Mr. DELGADO. My father came when he was roughly 20 years of age.
My mother came when she was about 13.
Mr. LIEBELER. Approximately hold old are your parents now?
Mr. DELGADO. My father is around 48. My mother is about 42.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you join the Marine Corps?
Mr. DELGADO. Down at
Mr. LIEBELER. What training did you receive? Where were you sent?
Mr. DELGADO. Well, when we left
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember when you were there at
Mr. DELGADO. I was there in 19--the the beginning of 1957.
Mr. LIEBELER. What is the exact title of the school that you went to? Do
you remember?
Mr. DELGADO. Electronics school is all I can remember. From there, upon
graduation from there, I received my choice of training, which was aircraft
control and warning, and I was sent to school at
Mr. LIEBELER. Approximately when did you arrive at
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Mr. DELGADO. The beginning of 1958.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you make the acquaintance of Lee Harvey Oswald at any
time prior to the time that you arrived at Santa Aria?
Mr. DELGADO. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't know Oswald while you were in school at
Mr. DELGADO. No. He was past that already.
Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald had been to these schools?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you learn subsequently that Oswald had been in school
in
Mr. DELGADO. All of us in MOS 6741 knew that he had been there.
Mr. LIEBELER. For the benefit of the record, MOS stands for Military
Occupation Specialty. Is that right?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And the MOS number that you have just referred to was what?
Mr. DELGADO. Airborne electronics operators is about the equivalent, I
guess.
Mr. LIEBELER. Airborne electronics operator?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes; our job was the surveillance of aircraft in distress,
control of intercepts and approaches, and mostly air surveillance and help of
aircraft running into problems.
Mr. LIEBELER. How long were you stationed at
Mr. DELGADO. From 1958, I would say, until November 2, 1959, when I got
discharged.
Mr. LIEBELER. So you were at Santa Ann after you completed your training,
throughout your entire Marine Corps career?
Mr. DELGADO. That's right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Until the time you were discharged?
Mr. DELGADO. That's right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have access to classified
information of any sort in the course of your work at Santa Aria?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes; we all had access to information, classified
information. I believe it was classified secret. We all had secret clearances.
There was some information there as to different codes and challenges that we
had to give to aircraft and challenges and so on.
Mr. LIEBELER. In other words, if I can understand correctly the nature of
your work, you actually worked in a control room?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Observing radar screens?
Mr. DELGADO. That's right.
Mr. LIEBELER. And when the radar screen would pick up an aircraft, you
would then challenge that aircraft?
Mr. DELGADO. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. And it would have to identify itself?
Mr. DELGADO. That's true.
Mr. LIEBELER. And the code or signals that you sent to the aircraft
requesting it to identify itself were classified information?
Mr. DELGADO. That's right, along with the range capabilities of the radar
sets and their blindspots and so forth and so on. You know, each site has
blind-spots, and we know the degrees where our blindspots are and who covers us
and that information. That's considered secret, what outfit covers us and things
like that.
Mr. LIEBELER. And what was the latter----
Mr. DELGADO. What outfit covers us, that we can see.
And as I say, the capabilities of the radars, as I said before.
Mr. LIEBELER. How far out they can reach?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And pick up an aircraft?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes; and how high----
Mr. LIEBELER. And how high----
Mr. DELGADO. And how low we can catch them and where we can't catch them.
Mr. LIEBELER. And I suppose all the men who worked, with the radar sets
knew these things?
Mr. DELGADO. They all knew. What do they call it now--authentication
charts, which is also a secret.
Mr. LIEBELER. What is the nature of these charts?
Mr. DELGADO. Authorization chart is, if we receive an order over the
phone, over the headsets--authentication. Pardon me. That's the word. Let's say
this order, we can question it. What it actually amounts to, he has to
authenticate it for us. Now, he should have the same table or code in front of
him that I have. He gives me a code. I would look it up in my authentication
chart, decipher it, and I could tell whether or not this man has the same thing
I am using. And this changes from hour to hour, see. There's no chance of
it--and day to day, also.
Mr. LIEBELER. So that the information, the code itself would not be of
any particular value to the enemy, since it is changed?
Mr. DELGADO. It's changed from day to day; no.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did there come a time when you were stationed at
Mr. DELGADO. Yes; in the beginning of 1959. He arrived at our outfit. I
didn't take no particular notice of him at the time, but later on we had--we
started talking, and we got to know each other quite well. This is all before
Christmas, before I took my leave.
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Mr. LIEBELER. This was in 1957 or 1958?
Mr. DELGADO. 1958. And we had basic interests. He liked Spanish, and he
talked to me for a while in Spanish or tried to, and since nobody bothered, you
know--I was kind of a loner, myself, you know.
I didn't associate with too many people.
Mr. LIEBELER. How old were you at that time?
Mr. DELGADO. I was 17--18 years of age; 17 or 18.
Mr. LIEBELER. About the same age as Oswald?
Mr. DELGADO. Right. He was the same age as I was. And nothing really
developed until I went on leave oh, yes. At the time he was--he was commenting
on the fight that Castro was having at Sierra Madres at the beginning, just
about the turn of 1959. When I went on leave, it just so happened that my leave
coincided with the first of January, when Castro took over. So when I got back,
he was the first one to see me, and he said, "Well, you took a leave and
went there and helped them, and they all took over." It was a big joke.
So we got along pretty well. He had trouble in one of the huts, and he
got transferred to mine.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know what trouble he had in the other hut?
Mr. DELGADO. Well, the way I understand it, he wouldn't hold his own.
Came time for cleanup, and general cleanliness of the barracks, he didn't want
to participate, and he would be griping all the time. So the sergeant that was
in charge of that hut asked to have him put out, you know. So consequently, they
put him into my hut.
Mr. LIEBELER. What were these huts? Were they quonset huts?
Mr. DELGADO. Quonset huts, right.
Mr. LIEBELER. And they served as barracks, right?
Mr. DELGADO. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. How many men----
Mr. DELGADO. Each quonset hut was divided in half.
Now, in each half lived six men, two to a room. They were divided into
two rooms with a bath room each side, each half of the quonset hut. I was living
in one room. Oswald in the other room. And then we had our barracks, we had
quite a bit of turnovers, because guys kept coming in and being transferred. Him
and I seemed to be the only ones staying in there. And we would meet during
working hours and talk. He was a complete believer that our way of government
was not quite right, that--I don't know how to say it; it's been so long. He was
for, not the Communist way of life, the Castro way of life, the way he was going
to lead his people. He didn't think our Government had too much to offer.
He never said any subversive things or tried to take any classified
information that I know of out or see anybody about it.
As I said to the men that interviewed me before, we went to the range at
one time, and he didn't show no particular aspects of being a sharpshooter at
all.
Mr. LIEBELER. He didn't seem to be particularly proficient with the
rifle; is that correct?
Mr. DELGADO. That's right.
Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of rifle did you use?
Mr. DELGADO. He had an M-1. We all had M-l's.
Mr. LIEBELER. Carbine or rifle?
Mr. DELGADO. The M-1 rifle.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have them in your quonset hut at all times?
Mr. DELGADO. No, sir; we had them in the armory, in the quonset hut
designated as the armory. And we went there periodically to clean them up. And
at the time in
Mr. LIEBELER. Each man was assigned a particular rifle; is that correct?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have to use the rifles to stand inspection?
Mr. DELGADO. That's right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether or not Oswald kept his rifle in
good shape, clean?
Mr. DELGADO. He kept it mediocre.. He always got gigged for his rifle.
Mr. LIEBELER. He did?
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Mr. DELGADO Yes; very seldom did he pass an inspection without getting
gigged for one thing or another.
Mr. LIEBELER. With respect to his rifle?
Mr. DELGADO. With respect to his rifle. He didn't spend as much time as
the rest of us did in the armory cleaning it up. He would, when he was told to.
Otherwise, he wouldn't come out by himself to clean it. He was basically a man
that complained quite frequently.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think he complained more than the other Marines?
Mr. DELGADO. Well, yes; a little bit more. Anything, anything that they
told him to do, he found a way to argue it to a point where both him and the man
giving him the order both got disgusted and mad at each other, and while the
rest of us were working, he's arguing with the man in charge. For him there was
always another way of doing things, an easier way for him to get something done.
Mr. LIEBELER. He didn't take too well to orders that were given to him?
Mr. DELGADO. No; he didn't.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever notice that he
responded better if he were asked to do something instead of ordered to do
something?
Mr. DELGADO. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you say that?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes; well, that's what I worked with him.
I never called him Lee or Harvey or Oswald. It was always Oz.
Mr. LIEBELER. Oz.
Mr. DELGADO. Ozzie. I would say, "Oz, how about taking care of the
bathroom today?" Fine, he would do it. But as far as somebody from the
outside saying, "All right, Oswald, I want you to take and police up that
area"--"Why? Why do I have to do it? Why are you always telling me to
do it?" Well, it was an order, he actually had to do it, but he didn't
understand it like that.
Mr. LIEBELER. How long were you and Oswald stationed together at
Mr. DELGADO. Basically there were 11 months, from January to the date of
my discharge or the date that he took off. He got discharged before I did.
Mr. LIEBELER. August or September 1959, approximately?
Mr. DELGADO. 1959, right.
Mr. LIEBELER. And when were you discharged?
Mr. DELGADO. I was discharged November 2, 1960--1959.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald tell you that he had been overseas prior to the
time he came to Santa Aria?
Mr. DELGADO. No; he didn't tell me has was overseas. I got that from the
fellows who knew him overseas,
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember their names?
Mr. DELGADO. No; I don't. I think one of them was Dijonovich. There was
two of them stationed with him overseas.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever learn whether Oswald had been any place else
overseas other than Atsugi?
Mr. DELGADO. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. You never heard that he was stationed in the
Mr. DELGADO. No; not that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know whether any of these other men that had been
stationed overseas with Oswald had been to the
Mr. DELGADO. No; if they went on a problem from there and got aboard a
small carrier, they probably may have taken him, say, to Hawaii or the
Philippines or Guam, something like that, for maneuvers, or Okinawa.
Mr. LIEBELER. But you had no knowledge of it at the time?
Mr. DELGADO. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. You were about to tell us, before I went into this question
of how long you and Oswald were together, about the rifle practice that you
engaged in. Would you tell us about that in as much detail as you can remember?
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Mr. DELGADO. We went out to the field, to the rifle range, and before we
set out we had set up a pot. High score would get this money; second highest,
and so forth down to about the fifth man that was high.
Mr. LIEBELER. How many men were there?
Mr. DELGADO. Oh, in our
company there was about roughly 80 men, 80 to 100 men, and I would say about 40
of us were in the pot. All low ranking EM's, though. By that I mean corporal or
below. None of the sergeants were asked to join. Nine times out of ten they
weren't firing, just watching you. They mostly watched to see who was the best
firer on the line.
Mr. LIEBELER. You say there were about 40 men involved in this pot?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you say that Oswald finished fifth from the highest?
Mr. DELGADO. No; he didn't even place there. He
didn't get no money at all. He just barely got his score, which I think was
about 170, I think it was, just barely sharpshooter.
Mr. LIEBELER. Sharpshooter is the minimum.
Mr. DELGADO. Minimum.
Mr. LIEBELER. Rank?
Mr. DELGADO. It's broken down into three
categories: sharpshooters--no; pardon me, take that back; it's marksman is the
lowest, sharpshooters, and experts. And then Oswald had a marksman's badge,
which was just a plain, little thing here which stated "Marksman" on
it.
Mr. LIEBELER. And that was the lowest one?
Mr. DELGADO. That was the lowest. Well, that was qualifying; then there
was nothing, which meant you didn't qualify.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you fire with Oswald?
Mr. DELGADO. Right; I was in the same line. By that I mean we were on
line together, the same time, but not firing at the same position, but at the
same time, and I remember seeing his. It was a pretty big joke, because he got a
lot of "Maggie's drawers,"
you know, a lot of misses, but he didn't give a darn.
Mr. LIEBELER. Missed the target completely?
Mr. DELGADO. He just qualified, that's it. He wasn't as enthusiastic as
the rest of us. We all loved--liked, you know, going to the range.
Mr. LIEBELER. My recollection of how the rifle ranges worked is that the
troops divided up into two different groups, one of which operates the targets.
Mr. DELGADO. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. And the other one fires?
Mr. DELGADO. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. When you said before that you were in the same line as
Oswald, you meant that you fired at the same time that he did?
Mr. DELGADO. Right. And then all of us went to the pits, our particular
lines; then we went to the pits, you know.
Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald worked the pits with you, the same time you did?
Mr. DELGADO. Right. And he was a couple of targets down. It was very
comical to see, because he had the other guy pulling the target down, you know,
and he will take and maybe gum it once in a while or run the disk up; but he had
the other guy pulling it up and bringing it down, you know. He wasn't hardly
going to exert himself.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember approximately how far away Oswald was in
the line from you when you fired?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes; he was just one over from me.
Mr. LIEBELER. The next one, the very next one?
Mr. DELGADO. Not the next one, but the one over from that.
Mr. LIEBELER. There was one man between you and Oswald?
Mr. DELGADO. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to him about his performance with the rifle at
that time?
Mr. DELGADO. Not during that day, because I was mostly interested in my
picking up the money, you know, and I wasn't worrying about what he was doing;
in fact if he wasn't bringing it in, I didn't care, you know. I didn't want no
competition.
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Mr. LIEBELER. Did you win any of the money?
Mr. DELGADO. Oh, yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. How many of the Marines won?
Mr. DELGADO. Just five of us.
Mr. LIEBELER. Just five?
Mr. DELGADO. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. And which one were you?
Mr. DELGADO. I was---I shot about 192. I came in about third.
Mr. LIEBELER. My recollection of the rifle range from the time I was in
the is that sometimes the scores that were reported---
Mr. DELGADO. Were erroneous.
Mr. LIEBELER. Were erroneous. Has that been your experience also?
Mr. DELGADO. Oh, yes; if there is not close
supervision. By this, that you have your buddy in back of you, he could be
penciling in your score; if you get a 4, he will put a 5 in there. It doesn't
work that way if you go to fire for record, like we did, because they have an
NCO line and they got a pit NCO. Now
they have a man at that target down there keeping score, and they also have a
man back here keeping score, and when both those score cards are turned into the
line officer, they both better correspond, and you have no way of communicating
with the man down the pit.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was that the way it was handled when you fired this time?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. So there was very little, if any, chance that Oswald's
score could have been fixed up; is that correct?
Mr. DELGADO. The only time you could fix up the score, when you go down
for just straight firing, what they call battery column firing, and there is
nobody to supervise, you pencil yourself. The Marines is pretty strict about
that when you go for line firing. They want both scorecards to correspond with
each other.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is this the only time that you fired----
Mr. DELGADO. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. With Oswald during the time that you were stationed at
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned before in your testimony that you had been
interviewed prior to this time?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. By whom?
Mr. DELGADO. FBI agents.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember their names?
Mr. DELGADO. No; I don't.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember approximately when they talked to you?
Mr. DELGADO. They talked to me about five times.
Mr. LIEBELER. About five times?
Mr. DELGADO. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Could it have been three times?
Mr. DELGADO. One is at home, twice in the battery--no, four times,
because they visited me once at home, twice at the battery. the same fellow;
then he brought another man in. Yes; four times. Two different fellows. And one
time one was a Spanish--I don't know, I guess he was a Spanish interpreter.
Mr. LIEBELER. He spoke Spanish?
Mr. DELGADO. He spoke Castilian Spanish.
Mr. LIEBELER. Castilian Spanish?
Mr. DELGADO. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. That is a different kind of Spanish from the kind you
speak?
Mr. DELGADO. All right. He
could go out here in
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Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have difficulty in understanding this agent when he
spoke to you in Spanish?
Mr. DELGADO. No. See, I took it in high school. But he had difficulty in
interpreting my Spanish.
Mr. LIEBELER. So you think he was likely to have gotten the opinion that
you weren't very proficient in Spanish?
Mr. DELGADO. Right. But I would be willing to challenge him if he and I
go down to Spanish
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form an impression of these FBI agents when they
talked to you? Were they----
Mr. DELGADO. The one fellow, the older one, white-haired fellow, he was a
nice guy. And the two other ones, I never seen them before, two different
fellows.
Mr. LIEBELER. How many agents talked to you altogether?
Mr. DELGADO. I don't know if this Spanish guy was an agent or not. He
never introduced himself. But there was this white-hatred fellow, and then two
different men; three men altogether, not including this Spanish guy.
Mr. LIEBELER. So there would have been four men altogether?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. You are quite sure about that?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell me approximately when these people talked to
you?
Mr. DELGADO. The first time I came in contact was, let's see, about
January was the first time I was contacted by the white-haired fellow.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was he the fellow who spoke Spanish?
Mr. DELGADO. No; he was the man from the Red Bank office, I believe he
said he was, Red Bank, N.J. And then 2 weeks later he came to the battery to see
me, about a month later he came back with this Spanish fellow, and about another
month these other two fellows came in. They were all FBI agents though. They
showed me their book.
Mr. LIEBELER. The first time that the white-haired agent talked to you
was when?
Mr. DELGADO. About January, about a month or a month and a half after
Kennedy's assassination.
Mr. LIEBELER. Could it have been in the middle of December?
Mr. DELGADO. No; I don't think it was that close. Let's see, November
22---I think it was more to the last part of December, not to the middle.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did this FBI agent talk to you about this rifle practice
that you have just told us about?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes; he did.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what you told him?
Mr. DELGADO. Basically the same thing I told you, except he didn't ask
for it like you did, about the possibility of forging the score, and I didn't
explain to him about the NCOs in the lines and in the pits, also keeping the
score.
Mr. LIEBELER. You told the FBI that in your opinion Oswald was not a good
rifle shot; is that correct?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And that he did not show any unusual interest in his rifle,
and in fact appeared less interested in weapons than the average marine?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
He was mostly a thinker, a reader. He
read quite a bit.
Mr. LIEBELER. You told us just a few minutes ago that you took third in
the pool; is that correct?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did the FBI agent ask you about that?
Mr. DELGADO. No. He asked me how I placed.
I told him I placed pretty high; that's about all.
Mr. LIEBELER. In the report that I have in front of me of an interview
that Special Agents Richard B. Murdoch and James A. Marley, Jr., took of you on
January 15, 1964, at Holmdel, N.J., which would have been at the base---is that
correct?
Mr. DELGADO. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. It appears from the record here, from the report that I
have, that the Spanish-speaking agent was Mr. Murdoch.
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Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. So that this would have been the time that the
Spanish-speaking man was there?
Mr. DELGADO. Right. That was the third visit I had from him.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss at that time the rifle practice, do you
remember?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes: I did. I discussed the rifle practice all the time they
came up.
Mr. LIEBELER. They asked you the same questions?
Mr. DELGADO. Right; same thing over and over again.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, the report that I have says that Oswald, like most
marines, took an interest in the pool--they call it a pool instead of a pot, but
that is the same thing?
Mr. DELGADO. Arm. Yes; pool.
Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald took an interest in the pool, which was started for
the marine getting the highest score. It
says, however, "Delgado said neither he nor Oswald came close to
winning."
Mr. DELGADO. No, no; that is erroneous, because I won. He didn't win at
all.
Mr. LIEBELER. You never told these FBI agents that you yourself did not
come close to winning?
Mr. DELGADO. No; because I was--I was one of the highest ones there, I
always had an expert badge on me.
Mr. LIEBELER. You were a good rifle shot?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes; just like I got one now [indicating].
Mr. LIEBELER. That is an expert?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes. This is a sharpshooter.
Mr. LIEBELER. You have both a sharpshooter and an expert badge; is that
correct?
Mr. DELGADO. Right. One for
the M-1 rifle and the other for the carbine rather, this is the M-14, the new
one.
Mr. LIEBELER. The scores that you got on that practice would be reflected
in your military records, would they not?
Mr. DELGADO. Right; in all our--well, I think they call them 201 flies
also in the Marines Corps--I can't remember what they are now, but they are all
there, especially that one particular day, because that goes into your records.
That's why they are so strict.
Mr. LIEBELER. And there is no chance in connection with that
qualification firing that you can pencil in your score?
Mr. DELGADO. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. You did not tell the FBI that in your opinion Oswald had
penciled in his qualifying score, did you? Or did you tell them that?
Mr. DELGADO. He may have done, you know; but if you got away with it you
were more than lucky.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to the FBI about that possibility?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes, I told him he ,nay have, to qualify, because there was
a lot of "Maggie's drawers" on his side. Now, he may have had some way
of knowing who was pulling, that is another thing. Yon don't know who is out
there in the pits, pulling it, see; and it could be a buddy of yours or somebody
you know, and they will help you out. you know, get together, like before we all
go and separate, you know, and I will say to my buddy, "Well, look, I want
to try and get on line 22, you get on target 22 and I will try to be the first
one on line"; so help each other like that. And when they 7.o to the pits,
they have their choice of getting on the lines, you know, so I will try to work
it out with the fellow out there. But sometimes it doesn't work out that way.
You just have to take your chances.
Mr. LIEBELER. You told us that in this particular rifle practice, or
firing, that the scores were kept by NCOs.
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was it a common practice for the privates to make deals
like this with the noncommissioned officers in connection with a thing like
this?
Mr. DELGADO. They are making a deal with the other guys pulling the
targets. See, the guy back there is also keeping a score.
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Now, your NCO, particularly your NCO, may want to push you or make you
qualify, because he doesn't want to spend another day out there on the rifle
range, see; so it's not all that strict. Like
if I was line NCO and I had five men in my section, and four of them qualified,
that means that some other day, maybe on my day off, I will have to come in with
this other fellow, so I will help him along and push each other along.
You don't try to mess nobody up, but you can't take a man that is
shooting poorly and give him a 190 score, see; you could just give him the bare
minimum, 170 or 171, to make it look good.
Mr. LIEBELER. Just to qualify him?
MR. DELGADO. Just to qualify him.
MR. LIEBELER. So it is a possibility that that might have happened even
in this?
MR. DELGADO. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. You said that you came in about third in this pool?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember who the marines were that won it and took
second place?
Mr. DELGADO. No. These men were mostly transients. Like I said, I didn't
have too many close friends in the Marine Corps.
I went to school with quite a few of them that were stationed with us,
but I never got real close to any of them.
Mr. LIEBELER. This statement in this FBI report indicates that you said
that neither you nor Oswald came close to winning the pool and that just must be
a mistake; is that correct?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes, Correct. I think in the first statement, too I said
that I have won too, I believe, the first one he took. I won, but he didn't.
Mr. LIEBELER. The first report indicates that you said that Oswald was a
poor shot and didn't do well, but it doesn't say anything about how you did.
Do you remember discussing how you did with the FBI in the first
interview that you had?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes, the first one was at home.
We had more time to talk, and I was at ease there.
Mr. LIEBELER. And where would that have been?
Mr. DELGADO. The address?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.
Mr. DELGADO.
Mr. LIEBELER. You say that this incident where you had to go out and
qualify was some time in the spring of 1959?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember any closer than that?
Mr. DELGADO. No. I just knew it was the spring because that is the time
everyone goes out to fire. It's either going to be warm or it's going to be very
cold when they go out there; it's never in between. I could have said that, but
that was the day I was upset, because this guy kept on badgering me.
Mr. LIEBELER. You are talking now about the interview when the
Spanish-speaking agent was present?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Which one of them kept badgering you?
Mr. DELGADO. The Spanish agent.
Mr. LIEBELER. What was he badgering you about?
Mr. DELGADO. He kept on sitting--he'd been talking, he'd been looking at
me, doing this [indicating], you know, and he was sitting just about where this
gentleman is now, and I'd been looking out of the corner of my eye, because I
couldn't concentrate on what he was saying because he kept staring at me, and he
was giving me a case of jitters, you know.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have the impression that he didn't believe you?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes. But I told him, it's all right in the textbooks, that's
fine, you know, but my theory, my way is you are not going to get anything--I
mean the majority of the stuff out of books, you have got to apply yourself on
the outside; and he may have gotten an A in Spanish, and may write in--be able
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to
decipher anything in Spanish into English, which is fine, as long as he stays in
the lower court, you know, where they are going to speak high Spanish, but when
you go to mingle with the people and speak their language, you know, don't go in
there with a college Spanish, because, to begin with, they are going to tell
right off, you know, well, this guy is a highfalutin fellow, you know, They are
not going to have anything to do with him.
You know, common Spanish is quite often overlooked, and that is where we
make our mistake When we go---I think when we go abroad, because we try to speak
Spanish the way El Camino Real tells you to speak Spanish, and that is not going
to do.
If you come, a fellow comes and tries to be friends with you, and he is
giving you all these thees and thous, first of all you are not going to hit it
off right. Speak like they do.
If they say damn; say damn, you know, get with them.
Mr. LIEBELER. You and this agent did not strike it off too well?
Mr. DELGADO. No, I am afraid not. We
just spent hours arguing back and forth.
Mr. LIEBELER. Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. LIEBELER. We just referred to the El Camino Real that you mentioned,
and you mentioned that that was a Spanish textbook; is that correct?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. One in which the Castilian Spanish is taught?
Mr. DELGADO. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us some more about your discussions with
Oswald concerning the Castro movement or the situation in
Mr. DELGADO. We had quite many discussions regarding Castro. At the time
I was in favor of Castro, I wholeheartedly supported him, and made it known that
I thought he was a pretty good fellow, and that was one of the main things
Oswald and I always hit off so well, we were along the same lines of thought.
Castro at the time showed all possibilities of being a freedom-loving man, a
democratic sort of person, that was going to do away with all tyranny and
finally give the Cuban people a break. But then he turned around and started to
purge the Russian purge, started executing all these pro-Batistas or anybody
associated with a pro-Batista, just word of mouth. I would say he is a Batista,
and right away they would grab him, give him a kangaroo court and shoot him. He
and I had discussed about that, and right and wrong way that he should have gone
about doing it.
Castro at the time, his brother Raoul was the only known Communist, and I
mentioned the fact that he was a Communist, but that although Castro was the
leader, I doubt if he would follow the Communist line of life, you know. At the
time I don't remember Che Guevra being there. He came in after that.
And we talked how we would like to go to
Mr. LIEBELER. You and Oswald did?
Mr. DELGADO. Right. We were going to become officers, you know, enlisted
men. We are dreaming now, right? So
we were going to become officers. So we had a head start, you see. We were
getting honorable discharges, while Morgan--there was a fellow in
Mr. LIEBELER. A fellow named Morgan?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes; Henry Morgan--not Henry, but it was Morgan, though; and
at the end of the revolution he came out with the rank of major, you know.
So we were all thinking, well, honorable discharge, and I speak Spanish
and he's got his ideas of how a government should be run, you know, the same
line as Castro did at that time.
Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald?
Mr. DELGADO. Right. So we
could go over there and become officers and lead an expedition to some of these
other islands and free them too, you know, from--this was really weird, you
know, but----
Mr. LIEBELER. That is what you and Oswald talked about?
Mr. DELGADO. Right, things like that; and how we would go to take over,
to make a republic, you know, because that was another form of Batista,
American-
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supported
government, you know. And one of his
main, pet peeves was that he thought that Batista was being supported by the
Mr. LIEBELER. So against Castro?
Mr. DELGADO. Right, because of the fact that we had lost so much and were
about to lose so much money in Cuba, because now that our man was out.
And we would talk about how we would do away with
I told him, to begin with, you have got to be trusted--right--in any
country you go to you have got to be trusted, so the best way to be trusted is
to know their language, know their customs, you know; so he started applying
himself to Spanish, he started studying. He
bought himself a dictionary, a Spanish-American dictionary. He would come to me
and we would speak in Spanish. You know, not great sentences but enough.
After a while he got to talk to me, you know, in Spanish.
Mr. LIEBELER. How much of a fluency did Oswald develop in Spanish?
Mr. DELGADO. He didn't acquire too much. He
could, speak a common Spanish, like "How are you?
I am doing fine. Where are
you going? Which way is this? Common
stuff, you know, everyday stuff.
As far as getting in involved political argument, say, or like debate of
some sort, he couldn't hold his own.
Mr. LIEBELER. He couldn't speak Spanish well enough to do something like
that?
Mr. DELGADO. No.
But as far as meeting the people out in public and asking for things and
telling them something.
And, let's see, what else? Oh,
yes, then he kept on asking me about how about--how he could go about helping
the Castro government. I didn't know
what to tell him, so I told him the best thing that I know was to get in touch
with a Cuban Embassy, you know. But at that time that I told him this we were on
friendly terms with
After a while he told me he was in contact with them.
Mr. LIEBELER. With the Cuban Embassy?
Mr. DELGADO. Right. And I took it to be just a---one of his, you know,
lies, you know, saying he was in contact with them, until one time I had the
opportunity to go into his room, I was looking for--I was going out for the
weekend, I needed a tie, he lent me the tie, and I seen this envelope in his
footlocker, wall-locker, and it was addressed to him, and they had an official
seal on it, and as far as I could recollect that was mail from Los Angeles, and
he was telling me there was a Cuban Consul. And just after he started receiving
these letters--you see, he would never go out, he'd stay near the post all the
time. He always had money. That's why.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did you just say?
Mr. DELGADO. He always had money, you know, he never spent it.
He was pretty tight.
So then one particular instance, I was in the train station in
We rode into
I came to find out later on he had come back Saturday. He didn't stay
like we did, you know, come back Sunday night, the last train.
Very seldom did he go out. At
one time he went with us down to
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Mr. LIEBELER. Before we get into that, tell me all that you can remember
about Oswald's contact with the Cuban Consulate.
Mr. DELGADO.
Well, like I stated to these FBI men, he had one visitor; after he
started receiving letters be had one visitor.
It was a man, because I got the call from the MP guard shack, and they
gave me a call that Oswald had a visitor at the front gate.
This man had to be a civilian, otherwise they would
have let him in. So I had to
find somebody to relieve Oswald, who was on guard, to go down there to visit
with this fellow, and they spent about an hour and a half, 2 hours talking, I
guess, and he came back. I don't know who the man was or what they talked about,
but he looked nonchalant about the whole thing when he came back.
He never mentioned who he was, nothing.
Mr. LIEBELER. How long did he talk to him, do you remember?
Mr. DELGADO. About an hour and a half, 2 hours.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was he supposed to be on duty that time?
Mr. DELGADO. Right. And he had the guy relieve him, calling me about
every 15 minutes, where is his, the relief, where is the relief, you know,
because he had already pulled his tour of duty and Oswald was posted to walk 4
hours and he only walked about an hour and a half before he received this
visitor, you know, which was an odd time to visit, because it was after 6, and
it must have been close to 10 o'clock when he had that visitor, because anybody,
civilian or otherwise, could get on post up to 9 o'clock at night..
After 9 o'clock, if you are not military you can't get on that post.
So it was after 9 o'clock at night that he had the visitor, it was late
at night.
I don't think it could be his brother or father because I never knew that
he had one, you know; in fact the only one I knew was a sick mother, and then
later on, towards the end of our friendship there, he was telling me he was
trying to get a hardship discharge because his mother was sick.
Mr. LIEBELER. You never asked Oswald who this fellow was that he talked
to?
Mr. DELGADO. No, no.
Mr. LIEBELER. What time did the shifts of duty run?
This was a guard duty that he was on; is that right?
Mr. DELGADO. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. How did those shifts run?
Mr. DELGADO. They ran, let's see, from 12 to 4, 4 to 8, 8 to 12, 12 to 4,
4 to 8, like that; and he was roughly on 8-to-10 shift, you know.
Must have been about 9 o'clock when the guy called.
Mr. LIEBELER. The 8-to-12 shift?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes; and I had to relieve another guard and put him on.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you connect this visit that Oswald had at that time
with the Cuban Consulate?
Mr. DELGADO. Personally; I did; because I thought it funny for him to be
receiving a caller at such a late date time.
Also, up to this time he hardly ever received mail; in fact he very
seldom received mail from home, because I made it a policy, I used to pick up
the mail for our hut and distribute it to the guys in there, and very seldom did
I see one for him. But every so
often, after he started to get in contact with these Cuban people, he started
getting little pamphlets and newspapers, and he always got a Russian paper, and
I asked him if it was, you know, a Commie paper--they let you get away with this
in the Marine Corps in a site like this--and he said, "No, it's not
Communist; it's a White Russian. To
me that was Greek, you know, White Russian, so I guess he is not a Communist;
but he was steady getting that periodical. It
was a newspaper.
Mr. LIEBELER. In the Russian language?
Mr. DELGADO. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. And he received that prior to the time he contacted the
Cuban consulate; did he not?
Mr. DELGADO. Right.
And he also started receiving letters, you know, and no books, maybe
pamphlets, you know, little like church, things we get from church, you know,
but it wasn't a church.
Mr. LIEBELER. Were they written in Spanish, any of them, do you know?
Mr. DELGADO. Not that I can recall; no.
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Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have
any reason to believe that these things came to Oswald from the Cuban consulate?
Mr. DELGADO. Well, I took it for granted that they did after I seen the
envelope, you know.
Mr. LIEBELER. What was on this envelope that made you think that?
Mr. DELGADO. Something like a Mexican eagle, with a big, impressive seal,
you know. They had different colors on it, red and white; almost looked like our
colors, you know. But I can't recall the seal. I just knew it was in Latin,
United, something like that. I couldn't understand. It was Latin.
Mr. LIEBELER. You don't know for sure whether it was from the Cuban
consulate?
Mr. DELGADO. No. But he had told me prior, just before I found that
envelope in his wall locker, that he was receiving mail from them, and one time
he offered to show it to me, but I wasn't much interested because at the time we
had work to do, and I never did ask to see that paper again, you know.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you what his correspondence with the Cuban
consulate was about?
Mr. DELGADO. No; he didn't.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever
indicate to you that it had to do with the conversation that you had about going
over to
Mr. DELGADO. No. The only
thing he told me was that right after he had this conversation with the Cuban
people was that he was going to---once he got out of the service he was going to
Switzerland, he was going to a school, and this school in Switzerland was
supposed to teach him in 2 years--in 6 months what it had taken him to learn in
psychology over here in 2 years, something like that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you the name of the school?
Mr. DELGADO. No; but he
applied for it while in the service, and as far as I knew, that's where he was
going once he got discharged.
Mr. LIEBELER. This conversation that you and Oswald had about going over
in
Mr. DELGADO. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't seriously consider----
Mr. DELGADO. No; but that's when I started getting scared.
He started actually making plans, and how we would go about going to
Mr. LIEBELER. So you got the
impression that he started to get serious about going to
Mr. DELGADO. Yes. And about this time Castro started changing colors, so
I wasn't too keen on that idea, myself.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to Oswald about this change in Castro's
attitude and his approach?
Mr. DELGADO. Right. He said that was all due to mal--bad newspaper
reporting, that we were distorting the true facts, and for the same reason I
told you that, because we were mad, because now we wasn't getting the money from
Cuba that we were before.
Mr. LIEBELER. So Oswald basically took the position that you were getting
a distorted view of
Mr. DELGADO. Right; and we weren't getting the true facts of what was
happening in
Mr. LIEBELER. You have no definite way of knowing how much correspondence
Oswald received from the Cuban consulate, do you?
Mr. DELGADO. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. He told you that he had received some correspondence?
Mr. DELGADO. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. You don't know whether the Russian newspaper that he got
came from the Cuban consulate?
Mr. DELGADO. No. He was getting that way before he even started
corresponding with them.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether Oswald ever received any books or
pamphlets or materials in any language other than Russian---aside from English,
of course?
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Mr. DELGADO. No.
He had one book that was English, Das Kapital.
I think it was Russian, a book, like I said. I go-by Russian when it's
big block letters.
And he had one book like that. He
spoke Russian pretty good, so I understand.
Mr. LIEBELER. How do you understand that?
Mr. DELGADO. He tried to teach me some Russian.
He would put out a whole phrase, you know.
In return for my teaching him Spanish, he would try to teach me Russian.
But it's a tongue twister.
Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't have any understanding of the Russian language?
Mr. DELGADO. No. Basically I wasn't interested in it. In order to learn a
language, I think you have to be motivated.
You have to have a desire to use this language, you know, and I had no
need to learn Russian. And just the
reverse of him. He wanted to learn
Spanish. He had some idea of using
Spanish later on. I'm sure if this hadn't happened, he probably would be over
there now, if he hadn't been already.
Mr. LIEBELER. In
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any reason to believe that he has been in
Mr. DELGADO. Well, a guy like him would find--would have no difficulty in
getting into
Mr. LIEBELER. How do you know
that he was involved in the Fair Play for
Mr. DELGADO. Well, this was brought out in the newscast at the time of
his arrest.
Mr. LIEBELER. You have no direct knowledge of that, though?
Mr. DELGADO. No. In one of the news pictures I seen him distributing
pamphlets out in the street.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever see Oswald after----
Mr. DELGADO. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. After you were discharged from the Marine Corps?
Mr. DELGADO. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. You said before that you were in
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. You never met Oswald at any time while you were in
Mr. DELGADO. No. I wanted to---I knew that he was over there going to
school, and I can't for the life of me recall where I got the scoop that I
thought he was going to some school in Berlin, and I was thinking of going over
there, to see if I could find him, but I never did follow through. There was too
much redtape.
Mr. LIEBELER. You say that
you thought he was in
Mr. DELGADO. Yes. For some
reason or other. I can't say right
now why, but it just seemed to me that I thought he was going to school there.
Mr. LIEBELER. After you were discharged from the Marine Corps, you
learned that Oswald had gone to the
Mr. DELGADO. I knew he had gone to the
Mr. LIEBELER. When were you discharged?
Mr. DELGADO. In November.
As--when I got back, I saw the pictures all over the papers as him having
defected. and then we had the investigation there.
Mr. LIEBELER. But even though you had heard before you had gotten out of
the Marine Corps that Oswald had gone to the Soviet Union, while you were the
Army in Germany you gained the impression that somehow that he was in Berlin,
going to school?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes; in the university there.
Mr. LIEBELER. But you don't have any recollection of where you got this
idea?
Mr. DELGADO. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. You were under
the impression, then, that he had left the
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Mr. DELGADO. Yes. I
couldn't--Oswald loved to travel, right, but if he couldn't take military life,
where everything was told to him, I'm sure he couldn't take no life in
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think that he was perhaps at the same university
that you spoke of before, that he had applied for when he was in the Marines?
Mr. DELGADO. No; because I--the way I understand it, it's--there's two
big psychologists institutes in
Mr. LIEBELER. So you figured that because he had this interest in
psychology, and .since he was interested in communism, he probably wouldn't have
gone to the university in
Mr. DELGADO. Well, actually it was on their own level.
They would train him their way.
(Short recess.)
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think that Oswald was an agent of the Soviet Union
or was acting as an agent for the
Mr. DELGADO. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Whom did you mean to refer to when you said that they would
train him their way?
Mr. DELGADO. Well, after he was defecting, I assumed he would take the
Communist way of life, and I would imagine that they would put him to use to the
best of their advantage. But this was later brought out to be false, because
they came out and said that all he did was work in a factory. Whether or not
that's so, I can't say. That's what they said.
Mr. LIEBELER. But at the time you were in Europe, you were speculating to
yourself that he might have been in the
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. You received no particular information? You just figured
this out for yourself?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Just how well do you think Oswald learned to speak Spanish
during the time that he was associated with you in the Marine Corps?
Mr. DELGADO. He could meet
the average people from the streets and hold a conversation with them.
He could make himself understood and be understood. That's not too clear,
is it?
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think Oswald was an
intelligent person?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes; I did. More intelligent than I am, and I have a 117,
supposedly,
IQ, and he could comprehend things faster and was interested in things that I
wasn't interested in: politics, music, things like that, so much so like an
intellectual. He didn't read poetry or anything like that, but as far as books
and concert music and things like that, he was a great fan.
Mr. LIEBELER. You said before that Oswald was not sufficiently proficient
in Spanish so that he could carry on a political argument or anything like that.
Mr. DELGADO. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did you talk to the FBI about this question of how
well Oswald could speak Spanish?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes; I did.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what you told him?
Mr. DELGADO. I told him basically the same thing I told you, only then
this fellow came out, this other agent came out with this test he gave me.
Mr. LIEBELER. He gave you a test?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. In Spanish?
Mr. DELGADO. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Just in speaking to you, you mean?
Mr. DELGADO. No; a written thing.
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Mr. LIEBELER. He gave you a
written test?
Mr. DELGADO. I told him off
the bat, I can't--my spelling is bad, you know.
I told him right then. But
outside of the spelling, I could read it and write it, you know.
So he gave me a test, and he didn't tell me what the outcome was, but I
gathered it wasn't too favorable.
Mr. LIEBELER. What made you gather that?
Mr. DELGADO. The sarcasm in his voice when he said, "What makes you
think you speak Spanish so good?"--after he gave me the test, you know.
Well, I told him, "Your Spanish is all right in its place, you know,
college or something like that, but people have a hard time understanding
you," which is true. If you have any Spanish-speaking fellows working here,
let's say, a clerk or something, well, ask him what the word
"peloloso" means, and I would bet you 9 out of 10 times he would not
know. That's the Castilian word for
"lazy". We got words for
"lazy," three or four of them, "bago," "lento,"
things like that. That's one of the
things I brought up to him. But he just laughed it off.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell the FBI that Oswald was so proficient in
Spanish that he would discuss his ideas on socialism in Spanish?
Mr. DELGADO. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't tell them that?
Mr. DELGADO. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. You are absolutely sure of that?
Mr. DELGADO. No; he wouldn't argue with me.
All those arguments on socialism and communism and our way of life and
their way of life were held in English. He talked, but he couldn't hold his own.
He would speak three or four words and then ,bring it out in English.
But as far as basic conversation and debate; no.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell the FBI agent that Oswald would speak about
socialism and things like that in Spanish and that it seemed to give him a
feeling of superiority to talk about things like that in Spanish in front of the
officers so that the officers couldn't understand him?
Mr. DELGADO. We were speaking Spanish. That gave him a sense of
superiority, because they didn't know what we were talking about. In fact, more
than once we were reprimanded for speaking Spanish, because we were not supposed
to do it, and they didn't forbid us to speak Spanish--now, no political
discussions were talked about. This was small talk when we were talking Spanish.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, the FBI report that I have of an interview with you on
December 10, according to this report, 1963, at Leonardo----
Mr. DELGADO. Yes; that's my home.
Mr. LIEBELER. This FBI agent says that you told
him that Oswald became so proficient in Spanish that Oswald would discuss his
ideas on socialism in Spanish.
Mr. DELGADO. He would discuss his ideas, but not anything against our
Government or--nothing Socialist, mind you.
Mr. LIEBELER. In Spanish?
Mr. DELGADO. He would speak to me in Spanish in front of the people, in
front of the officers in the ward, what we call the wardroom. Basically the fact
that they could be standing over us and we would be talking, and they wouldn't
understand what we were saying. But no ideas were exchanged, political ideas
were exchanged during those times. Whenever we talked about the Communist
or Socialist way of life, we would do it either in our hut or, you know, in low
whispers doing the wardroom----
Mr. LIEBELER. That was in in English?
Mr. DELGADO. In English.
Mr. LIEBELER. He never spoke of these things in Spanish?
Mr. DELGADO. No; he couldn't.
Mr. LIEBELER. He didn't know Spanish that well?
Mr. DELGADO. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned one time that you and Oswald and a couple of
other fellows went to
Mr. DELGADO. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Had Oswald learned the Spanish language at that time?
Mr. DELGADO. He knew the Spanish language at that time, because when we
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went
to the bar, the girls would come along, and I was Spanish---they knew that right
off the bat, and they would tell me something in Spanish that was funny, and him
and I would laugh, and he would laugh understandingly, and he would be talking
small talk with the girls, you know, which was in my--you know, I had taught him
just what he knew, and he was very fast learning.
Just like I told the FBI agent that there's a couple of fellows in my
outfit now that wanted to learn, you know, Spanish, and would walk up to me, and
I tried to teach them the best I can. One of them wanted to learn it, because he
was going to
Mr. LIEBELER. This is a fellow that you just referred to now, in your
outfit?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. In
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. What is his name?
Mr. DELGADO. Jones.
Mr. LIEBELER. Jones?
Mr. DELGADO. Willie Jones.
Mr. LIEBELER. What is his rating?
Mr. DELGADO. Specialist 4.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is he in C
Mr. DELGADO. No. Delta
Mr. LIEBELER. What does he do?
Mr. DELGADO. He's a radar operator also.
And there's another fellow, George Bradford, specialist 5. He's asked for
it, and I've reached--taught him to speak Spanish. In fact, I'll ask him for
some money, you know, and he'll come out and say, "I'm broke right now.
I haven't got it with me." Or, "Have you got a cigarette,
George?" in Spanish, you know. "No, but I'll get you one," or
things like that. Now, I met this fellow in
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you say that Bradford and Jones knew about the same
amount of Spanish as Oswald knew?
Mr. DELGADO. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Not as much?
Mr. DELGADO. They don't know as much as Oswald. Oswald knew more than
they did," because he applied himself more. These guys would pick up a book
once or twice a week and learn a phrase here and there. But Oswald was
continuously trying to learn something, and more often as not he would come in
to me any time we were off, and he would be asking me for this phrase. Spanish
is very tricky. There's some sentences you can use, and if you use them, let's
see how can I--well, the pants and present, you know, past and present tense of
a sentence. He would get a misinterpretation and say, "I can't say this in
a conversation?", and I would say "No. You don't say this this
particular time. You use it some place else." Like, "Yo voy al
teatro"-"I'm going to the theatre"--you know. And there's a
correct way of saying that and there's a wrong way of saying it.
The best way--let me see if I can get you a good phrase. I can't fight
offhand think of a phrase that would fit. But some of these things when he
picked up the language, some things he couldn't put into a sentence right away,
and he would want to know why. That's the type of guy he was.
"Why can't these things be used?
Why is it that you use it now and not later?" Things like that.
Mr. LIEBELER. He would learn
some of the words and then he would try to put them in a sentence logically?
Mr. DELGADO. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. And the language just wasn't constructed that way?
Mr. DELGADO. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. And he had difficulty in understanding that?
Mr. DELGADO. You see, in English you say things straight out; right?
In Spanish, 9 times out of 10 it is just the reverse. I am going to the
show. But if I was to translate it
into Spanish, it would come, out the show I will go, or
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to
the show I will go. So you have got
to turn it around, you know, for him. That
is what I was trying to explain.
Mr. LIEBELER. He tried to construct Spanish sentences in pretty much the
same way English sentences would be constructed after he learned the Spanish
words?
Mr. DELGADO. Right; and that is where he got his help from me, you know.
Mr. LIEBELER. But as far as ordinary, simple ideas, you think that Oswald
could make himself understood in Spanish.
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. But you wouldn't, would you, say that he was highly
proficient in the Spanish language, but at least he knew some Spanish phrases
and he could speak some sentences and make his basic ideas known?
Mr. DELGADO. If there is a word, you know, like semiproficient, he wasn't
necessarily low, or was he as high Spanish like I speak, you know; he was right
in the middle. Of course, there would be words, if you taught him, he may not
understand, but basically he understood and made himself understood.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what kind of Spanish dictionary he had?
Mr. DELGADO. No; I don't. It was just regular pocketbook edition, the
kind you buy out there for about $2.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know
whether Oswald spoke any other language. You
mentioned before he spoke Russian.
Mr. DELGADO. Russian.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think that he was proficient in Russian at that
time or highly proficient?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes; I imagine he would be, because he was reading the
paper, and basically if he can read it, you know, I imagine he could speak it
also.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear him speak Russian?
Mr. DELGADO. Well, like I say, he tried to teach me Russian, but then
another time I had some thought that what he was speaking to me was German; but
according to the agent, he messed me all up, and I couldn't figure whether it
was Hebrew or German. I tried to
tell him that some of the words he had mentioned to me at the time I didn't
recognize them, but when I came back from
Mr. LIEBELER. It seemed to you like it was German?
Mr. DELGADO. Like German; yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. But you only came to that conclusion after you had been to
Mr. DELGADO. Right.
At the time it could have been Yiddish or German, you know.
Mr. LIEBELER. Could it have been Russian?
Mr. DELGADO. No; different gutteral sounds altogether.
Mr. LIEBELER. But you did not know whether Oswald spoke this other
language to any extent; he just used a few words?
Mr. DELGADO. No; I just remember his particular language, which I am in
doubt about, had a "ch" gutteral sound to it [indicating], you know;
and I could only assume it was Jewish or German, and later on when I was in
Germany, I think, I am pretty sure it was German that he was speaking.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he speak it well or did he
just use a few words?
Mr. DELGADO. He speaks it
like I speak it now, you know, like, just phrases, you know.
Where he picked them up, I don't know.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you teach anybody else Spanish while you were in the
Marines?
Mr. DELGADO. Just one fellow, but he denied that I taught him any
Spanish.
Mr. LIEBELER. Who was that?
Mr. DELGADO. Don Murray. He took Spanish in college, and we were
stationed in
Mr. LIEBELER. Was he stationed with you at
Mr. DELGADO. That's right.
Mr. LIEBELER. What makes you say he denied that you taught him any
Spanish?
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Mr. DELGADO. That is what the agent interviewing me told me.
Mr. LIEBELER. The FBI agent told you that?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did you say then?
Mr. DELGADO. I told him that was his prerogative, but I had taught him--I
mean I had talked to him in Spanish, and he had asked for my help. I assumed
that he wanted to know my association with this thing that is happening now.
Mr. LIEBELER.
Did you get the impression that the agent was trying to get you to change
your story?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. He was trying to get you to back away from the proposition
that Oswald understood Spanish?
Mr. DELGADO. Well, am I allowed to say what I want to say?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; I want you to say exactly what you want to say.
Mr. DELGADO. I had the impression now, wholeheartedly, I want to believe
that Oswald did what he was supposed to have done, but I had the impression they
weren't satisfied with my testimony of him not being an expert shot. His Spanish
wasn't proficient where he would be at a tie with the Cuban government.
Mr. LIEBELER. First of all, you say you got the impression that the FBI
agents that talked to you didn't like the statement that you made about Oswald's
inability to use the rifle well; is that right?
Mr. DELGADO. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. What about this Spanish thing, what impression did you get
about the agents?
Mr. DELGADO. Well, they tried to make me out that I didn't have no
authority to consider myself so fluent in Spanish where I could teach somebody
else. That is there opinion and they
can have it as far as I am concerned.
If a man comes up to me without knowing a bit of Spanish, if within 6
months--and I told these FBI men--he could hold a conversation with me, I
consider myself as being some sort of an authority on teaching, my ability to
teach somebody to speak Spanish, which I told him I could take any man with a
sincere desire to learn Spanish and I could teach him my Spanish, the Spanish
the people speak, you know, I could teach him in, I could have him hold a
conversation, I would say, in 3 months' time he could hold a conversation.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, the FBI tried to indicate to you that you yourself
were not good at Spanish?
Mr. DELGADO. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. And did you have any feeling about
the FBI agents' attitude toward Oswald's ability with the Spanish language?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes; they didn't think he was too well versed, you know, he
didn't know too much Spanish, as much as I wanted them to think he did, you
know. In other words, they felt he could say "I have a dog. My dog is
black." And "I have an
automobile," and things like that, you know, basic Spanish, but I don't
teach--I mean I am not a teacher. I don't go with that, you know.
If a guy wants to learn Spanish, I don't tell him, "Well, let's
start off with 'I have a dog,' "you know. That is no practical use for him,
you know.
to
ask questions like this and understand them; is that right?
Mr. DELGADO. Right. Now, we had Mexican fellows in our outfit, and Oswald
could understand their Spanish, and made it known to me that he could understand
their Spanish, but in return those Mexicans could not understand my Spanish
because the Puerto Ricans, Cubans, the Dominican Republics, they all speak real
fast. Your Mexican is your Southern equivalent to your Southern drawl, you know,
"You all," and real slow. Well, that is the Mexicans, you know. And
when we speak Spanish to them, Puerto Rican, rather, or Spanish, they have a
hard time understanding you. But he could understand what was going on, and
sometimes he would tell me, "Well, these guys here are planning a beer bust
tonight," he said. "Are
you going?" He'd overhear and
tell me, you know.
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Mr. LIEBELER. When did the FBI agents tell you that
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. The Spanish-speaking agent only talked to you once; is that
right?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you find that you have to mix English words with your
Spanish to express yourself completely?
Mr. DELGADO. No; what I meant to tell the fellow there--I think is what
that sentence you have in front of you is--that, say-- how can I say it?--you
speak to me in English, and I could say it in Spanish just about as fast as you
could tell me in English, you know, like he is working there, you know, all
coming to his fingertips, like the other fellow was telling me. I could
translate that fast, you know, and deciphering is the only proper way of saying
it, you know. And
I made another statement at home, you know, my family was speaking, and
the majority of the words being Spanish, and English just come out, you know.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you speak Spanish around the home?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is your wife Puerto Rican?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Does she speak Spanish?
Mr. DELGADO: Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was your wife born in
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. When did she come to the
Mr. DELGADO. About 1944, 1945.
Mr. LIEBELER. How old was she then?
Mr. DELGADO. She was about 13.
Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned that Oswald used to go into
Mr. DELGADO. Once he went with me.
Mr. LIEBELER. Just once?
Mr. DELGADO. Just once.
That was, you know, he just stayed a night, as far as I can remember.
Mr. LIEBELER. So that Oswald only went into
Mr. DELGADO. That I know; yes. Right after he corresponded with these
people.
Mr. LIEBELER. With the Cuban Consulate?
Mr. DELGADO. I assumed he was going there to see somebody.
I never asked him. It wasn't
my business, you know.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he later tell you that he had been to the Cuban
Consulate?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes; but I thought it was just his, you know, bragging of
some sort.
Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't really believe that he had?
Mr. DELGADO. Well, no; I didn't have no interest in it, whether or not.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you learn that Oswald had gone into
Mr. DELGADO. No; not that I knew of.
Mr. LIEBELER. The only thing that you know----
Mr. DELGADO. That I am sure of was that one particular incident, one
particular time, it struck me as being odd that he had gone out, you know.
Mr. LIEBELER. So that Oswald only went into
Mr. DELGADO. Yes; that I can recall.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did the FBI agent ask you about this?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes; he asked me that, and I believe I gave him the same
answer I have given you now, because the other time they had two men, that other
fellow was asking me questions too, you know, this is back and forth, trying to
answer you, and he is asking me something else, you know.
I was sitting in the old
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man's
office, the commanding officer's office, you know, and I wasn't too at ease
there either.
Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald did not go with you to
Mr. DELGADO. No, no. I went every week to
Mr. LIEBELER. Every week?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes; every weekend that I was off, you know, roughly three
weekends a month.
Mr. LIEBELER. But Oswald only accompanied you on one occasion?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. You don't know of your own knowledge of any other times
that he went into
Mr. DELGADO. No. The only outstanding thing I can remember was that
Oswald was a casual dresser. By that I mean he would go with a sport shirt,
something like that, and this particular instance he was suited up; white shirt,
dark suit, dark tie.
Mr. LIEBELER. You told the FBI that Oswald enjoyed classical music; is
that right?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And that he
would often talk at length about the opera; is that correct?
Mr. DELGADO. Right. I tried
to be a listener, but I wasn't too interested.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald seem
to be interested in girls?
Mr. DELGADO. No; not to my knowledge. He didn't have a girl friend write
him, I know that for a fact; he didn't have no girl writing; never went to a
dance down at the service club; always by himself.
And when we had no duty, him and I used to go to the show, you know, 9
times out of 10 I ended up paying for it.
Mr. LIEBELER. How about sports, did he eve,- show any interest in sports?
Mr. DELGADO. No. That is something I would like to bring up.
Mr. LIEBELER. Go ahead.
Mr. DELGADO. May I go on the record, because
there was a statement I read in Life Magazine?
Mr. LIEBELER. Go ahead.
Mr. DELGADO. And it's erroneous.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did it say?
Mr. DELGADO. It is quoting a Lieutenant Cupenack, and he made a statement
there in Life, last month, I believe it was. He made a statement saying he was
Oswald's commanding officer, Oswald was on the football team. He was on the
football team, that is the only true fact in the whole statement that he made.
Also that he had a run-in with a captain that was on the football team,
and because of this argument he went off the team.
To begin with, our company commander was a light colonel, lieutenant
colonel. Lieutenant Cupenack was a supply officer. He seldom came in contact
with Oswald, and when he did, it was only when Oswald was on details or when
Lieutenant Cupenack had duty that particular night in the war room when Oswald
was on. And as far as a captain being on the football team, the only captain we
had was in the S-3 section where we worked, and he was too old to play football.
Lieutenant Cupenack played football.
He was good. He was tackle.
I remember I played against him plenty of times myself. And why Oswald
left, I don't know. I don't think he
went out, he just bugged out, it's what he wanted, and he had it for a while,
and he just quit.
Mr. LIEBELER. He did come out for football though?
Mr. DELGADO. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell the FBI agents about this?
Mr. DELGADO. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did they ask about it?
Mr. DELGADO. No; I didn't tell them.
I just couldn't see why a big agency like Life would not check into the
story and let something like this, you know, get out. I mean it's all well, you
know, to go along and believe what the fellow did, but bring out the truth.
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Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember
which article in Life Magazine this was? Was
this the issue----
Mr. DELGADO. The big writeup on him, the latest one, where he had the
picture of him in the
Mr. LIEBELER. The one that they had Oswald's
picture on the cover, holding the rifle?
Mr. DELGADO. Right. And right now he is an instructor of philosophy or
psychology in
Mr. LIEBELER. This lieutenant?
Mr. DELGADO. Right. I just thought it funny, him saying that he was
commanding officer over Oswald; that he had a lot of trouble with Oswald.
And you have been m the Army, a supply officer hardly ever comes in
contact with the troops, and to say that a lieutenant is going to override a
lieutenant colonel is ridiculous.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell the FBI that Oswald did not show any interest
in sports?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes; I told them he didn't show any interest in sports.
Mr. LIEBELER. In spite of the fact that he had actually gone on the
football team?
Mr. DELGADO. That is just one example, the football. But he never went
out for basketball, baseball, or handball, like the rest of us did, you know.
And myself, I didn't go out for sports either, just football and
handball; and that was it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was Oswald a good football player?
Mr. DELGADO. Mediocre, he was so-so.
Mr. LIEBELER. What position did he play?
Mr. DELGADO. He played tackle or end, you know, never fullback,
quarterback or anything like that, you know.
Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of football teams were these?
Mr. DELGADO. Flag. Flag football.
Mr. LIEBELER. That is, the different companies or batteries?
Mr. DELGADO. Well, when Oswald went out for the team, it was in the
battery, getting the lines set up, but he quit before we went for competition.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was this regular football or just touch football.
Mr. DELGADO. Flag football.
Mr. LIEBELER. Touch football?
Mr. DELGADO. Touch football.
Mr. LIEBELER. Go back and tell us all that you can remember about this
trip to
Mr. DELGADO. Well, it
happened on one of our weekends off.
Mr. LIEBELER. When was it, approximately?
Mr. DELGADO. Oh, you got me
there. I would say about May,
something like that.
Mr. LIEBELER. In 1959.
Mr. DELGADO. 1959; right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you
remember whether your trip to
Mr. DELGADO. After.
Mr. LIEBELER. How much after?
Mr. DELGADO. Oh, about 3 to 4 weeks. Within the same month period,
because we were about just gotten paid, you know.
Mr. LIEBELER. Go ahead.
Mr. DELGADO. And these two colored fellows we had in our outfit, I can't
remember their names, like I told the agents, I don't know why because they
worked in a different department than I did there, never had no trouble with
them, they wanted to go down to Tijuana; so I had the car, and they asked me if
I would take them down there.
So
I told them yeah, they are going to pay for the gas, so why not, I will go for a
free trip. So in the process of getting ready I asked Oswald if he wanted to go
there, you know, and I have asked him to go to L.A. with me plenty of times and
he never bothered going--I said, "Oswald, let's go to Tijuana."
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He said, "Okay, fine." Like
a casual dresser, he went like the rest of us were, in casual clothes.
We went down to
Mr. LIEBELER. To the Flamingo?
Mr. DELGADO. Flamingo, right. And as far as I know it's still there.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is this outside of
Mr. DELGADO. It's outside of
Mr. LIEBELER. No.
Mr. DELGADO. No. Well, it's
the street before the bullring. You have got to make a right-hand turn and you
go out for about 1 mile, 2 miles out into the boondocks, the country.
It's out in the country, about 2 miles away from the center of the town.
When we arrived in there, the way the agents tried to ask me if he had
known anybody, I told them no; the way it looked, he just had been there before,
but nobody recognized him. The only things I can remember, like I told these
agents, were the two contrasting bartenders, you know, a real good-looking
woman, amazon; she must have been at least 6-foot tall; and then there was this
fragile-looking fellow behind the bar, one of those funny men, you know, and
outside of being a very nice and exclusive club, you know--it wasn't one of
these clip joints they had downtown, it was far different from that; it was
really nice, a nice place.
Mr. LIEBELER. The bartender was a homosexual?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was that apparent to you?
Mr. DELGADO. Oh, yes; it was apparent to us sitting on the bar stool, he
looked like a little kitten; and the other bartender was this big girl. She was
a good-looking doll. And that's
about all.
Nothing eventful happened there. There is where the girls were telling
stories, you know. They got these girls, you pick them up there, you know, and
they started telling us stories, and he'd laugh just about the same time I
laughed, and he understood what they were saying.
Mr. LIEBELER. They spoke Spanish?
Mr. DELGADO. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did anything else happen at the Flamingo that you can
remember?
Mr. DELGADO. No; during the night though I had lost my wallet. That was
when I went to the provost marshal--not the provost marshal--the M.P. gate, and
reported it, but that is neither here nor there.
I had to put in for a new I.D. card and what have you.
Mr. LIEBELER. This was in
Mr. DELGADO. In
Mr. LIEBELER. The shore patrol had an office across----
Mr. DELGADO. Right at the border.
Mr. LIEBELER. Right at the border?
Mr. DELGADO. Right at the border they have an M.P. shack, right in the
customs office, but they couldn't do nothing, what money I had was gone.
Like I said, these two Negro fellows, they paid for the way back, you
know.
Mr. LIEBELER. You did have to put in for a new I.D. card; is that right?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER Did you stay in
Mr. DELGADO. No; we stayed in downtown
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember where?
Mr. DELGADO. Right across the street from the jai-alai games, there are
some hotels, these houses, you know; and as far as I knew, Oswald had a girl. I
wasn't paying too much attention, you know, but it seemed to me like he had one.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he show any interest in the jai-alai games?
Mr. DELGADO. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. You stayed over only one night; is that right?
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Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Saturday night?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. On Sunday you drove back to the base?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald say anything about his trip down there, his
experiences, that you can remember?
Mr. DELGADO. No; it was--nothing extraordinary was said. The way of life
down there was so poor, you know. They
shouldn't allow a town like that to exist, things like that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald said that?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you mention to the FBI the fact that Oswald had a copy
of Das Kapital?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned that in your testimony previously too?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald have any other books that you can remember?
Mr. DELGADO. He had Mein
Kampf, Hitler's bible, but that was circulating throughout the battery,
everybody got a hold of that one time or another, you know, and he asked me, how
did I know he was reading Das Kapital. I said, well, the man had the book, and
he said that doesn't necessarily mean that he was reading it.
So I told him in one instance I walked into the room and he was laying
the book down, you know, as he got up to greet me, you know.
He says that still doesn't prove that he was reading it.
Well, if you are sitting, reading a book, and somebody walks into the
room, you are not going to keep on reading the book; you are going to put it
down and greet whoever it is; and then I assume he is going to assume you have
been reading the book, if it is open. It's the only logical explanation.
They didn't want to go for that; they wanted to know did I actually see
him reading the book, which I couldn't unless I sneaked up on the guy, you know.
Mr. LIEBELER. This is the FBI agent you are talking about?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. But you do remember that when you would walk into the room
Oswald would be sitting there with this book and it would be open?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes; and then he had this other book. I am still trying to
find out what it is. It's about a
farm, and about how all the animals take over and make the farmer work for them.
It's really a weird book, the way he was explaining it to me, and that
struck me kind of funny. But he told
me that the farmer represented the imperialistic world, and the animals were the
workers, symbolizing that they are the socialist people, you know, and that
eventually it will come about that the socialists will have the imperialists
working for them, and things like that, like these animals, these pigs took over
and they were running the whole farm and the farmer was working for them.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is that what Oswald explained to you?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell the FBI about this?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did they know
the name of the book?
Mr. DELGADO. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. The FBI did not know the name of the book?
Mr. DELGADO. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you want to know the name of the
book?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. It is called
the Animal Farm. It is by George Orwell.
Mr. DELGADO. He didn't tell
me. I asked him for the thing, but
he wouldn't tell me. I guess he
didn't know. The Animal Farm. Did
you read it?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.
Mr. DELGADO. Is it really like that?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; there is only one thing that Oswald did not mention
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apparently
and that is that the pigs took over the farm, and then they got to be just like
the capitalists were before, they got fighting among themselves, and there was
one big pig who did just the same thing that the capitalist had done before.
Didn't Oswald tell you about that?
Mr. DELGADO. No; just that the pigs and animals had revolted and made the
farmer work for them. The Animal
Farm. Is that a socialist
book?
Mr. LIEBELER. No.
Mr. DELGADO. That is just the
way you interpret it; right?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; I think
so. It is actually supposed to be
quite an anti-Communist book.
Mr. DELGADO. Is it really?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. You and Oswald finally began to cool off toward each
other a little bit; is that right?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. How did that come about?
Mr. DELGADO. Well, like I
said, his ideas about Castro kept on persisting in the same way as at the
beginning, when evidence was being shown that Castro was reverting to a
Communist way of government, you know, and secret state, secret police state,
and the turning point came about when there was this one corporal Batista had in
his army, very thin, small fellow, and he had no significant job whatsoever, he
was just a corporal in the army, and because of the fact that a lady stepped
forward at the tribunal and said that this corporal was in charge of mass
murdering all these people, that Batista was supposed to have done away with,
they executed him on the pure fact of one lady's statement with no proof
whatsoever.
So I brought that to his attention and he said, "Well, in all new
governments some errors have to occur, but you can be sure that something like
this was investigated prior to his execution but you will never know about it
because they won't publicize that hearing," you know.
I couldn't see that, what was happening over there then, when they
started executing these people on just mere word of mouth.
Batista executed them when he had them, a regular blood bath going on
there. But that's when I started cooling off, and he started getting more
reverent toward Castro, he started thinking higher----
Mr. LIEBELER. More highly?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes; more highly of Castro than I
did, and about a month later I was on leave, and when I came back he was gone.
And it must have been a fast processing, because I wasn't gone over 15
days; when I come back he was already gone.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you and Oswald stay in the same hut together until he
actually got out of the Marines?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever put in for a transfer to another hut to get
away from Oswald before you went on leave?
Mr. DELGADO. I did, but it never went through. I was the hut NCO, and all
the other huts had NCO's, and if I went into another hut I would be under
another guy.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you didn't want to do that?
Mr. DELGADO. No; I had my rank.
Mr. LIEBELER. So you stayed there and remained NCO in charge of the hut?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes; but he never got into arguments with me.
He liked to talk politics with one fellow particularly, Call, and he
would argue with him, and Oswald would get to a point where he would get utterly
distrusted with the discussion and got out of the room.
Whenever it got to the point where anger was going to show, he would stop
cold and walk out and leave the conversation in the air.
Mr. LIEBELER. He never got
mad at anybody?
Mr. DELGADO. Not physically
mad, no.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever know him to get into a fight with anybody at
Mr. DELGADO. No.
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Mr. LIEBELER. You say you did put in for a transfer to another hut; is
that right?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was that permission granted?
Mr. DELGADO. I was waiting for it to be granted. I turned it in to the
section sergeant, and I never knew what the outcome was. I never found out. They
never notified me as to why I wanted to get transferred to the other huts.
Mr. LIEBELER. You never did move from your hut to another hut?
Mr. DELGADO. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. You actually were discharged, from the Marines before this
question of your transfer ever came up?
Mr. DELGADO. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. When did you go
into the Marines? You told us
before. Let us review that for a
moment.
Mr. DELGADO. I went into the Marines November 1, 1956.
Mr. LIEBELER. You were discharged 1 November, approximately----
Mr. DELGADO. 1959.
Mr. LIEBELER. 1959; is that correct?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you go on leave prior to your discharge?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes; I did.
Mr. LIEBELER. Terminal leave?
Mr. DELGADO. What?
Mr. LIEBELER. Was it a
terminal leave, and you just took your leave and left, or did you go on leave
and then come back?
Mr. DELGADO. No.
I went on leave and then came back.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you go on leave?
Mr. DELGADO. About in August, I think--September to October, something
like that. A 15-day leave, to go to
Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you go on leave: to
Mr. DELGADO. To
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to the FBI just about this series of events?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what you told them?
Mr. DELGADO. I told them that I had gone on leave, and when I came back
Oswald had been discharged and that then they came out with the story that he
defected, I think, then, and that we all had gone under investigation.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell the FBI agents when you went on leave?
Mr.. DELGADO. Yes. I gave them a specific date.
I think I told them about August.
Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't tell them June or July?
Mr. DELGADO. No. I don't believe so.
Mr. LIEBELER. Could you have told them it was June or July?
Mr. DELGADO. I may have told them June or July.
I'm not too sure. I know it
was the midsummer; because I came into
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell the FBI agents that you had actually
transferred to another hut?
Mr. DELGADO. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't tell them that?
Mr. DELGADO. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. You are
positive of that?
Mr. DELGADO. No; but I told
them that Oswald was transferred. The
only transfer that occurred was Oswald to my hut, and that I put in for a
transfer, and transfer was waiting to be approved for an NCO to be bumped into
my hut, but it never got approved. I
guess things came up, and about 2 or 3 weeks later I went on leave.
Mr. LIEBELER. When you came back from leave, Oswald was gone?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes Prior to my leaving I knew he was putting in for a
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hardship
discharge because he had gone to see the old man and so forth and so on, but,
like I say, it usually took so long time to get a hardship discharge, too.
Mr. LIEBELER. So you and Oswald were actually quartered in the same
quonset hut up to the time Oswald Was discharged?
Mr. DELGADO. Up to the time I went on leave.
Mr. LIEBELER. And when you came back Oswald was gone?
Mr. DELGADO. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. You never saw him after that?
Mr. DELGADO. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald say anything to you while you were in the
Marines together about going to
Mr. DELGADO. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. He never did?
Mr. DELGADO. No; I couldn't understand where he got the money to go.
Mr. LIEBELER. You said before he didn't spend very much money.
Mr. DELGADO. Yes; but I imagine the way it costs now, it costs at least
$800 to a $1,000 to travel across Europe, plus the red tape you have to go
through.
Mr. LIEBELER. When did you see this official-looking envelope that you
mentioned before with the seal on it? Do
you remember when that was?
Mr. DELGADO. Outside of being prior to one of my departures for
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; if you can remember it. I mean, was it----
Mr. DELGADO. It's hard to say, because we were together so long.
It was one of the weekends I was going into
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether it was before or after your rifle
practice?
Mr. DELGADO. No; It was after, because prior to our rifle practice I
don't think we had any political discussions at all.
Mr. LIEBELER. Most of those were after the rifle qualifications?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes; you see, this all happened,, oh, between when I say,
May to September or May to August, of going on leave, all these incidents, you
know.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember how long you were back at
Mr. DELGADO. About 2 months, I guess.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did the FBI agents ask you about that?
Mr. DELGADO. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned this fellow by the name of Call.
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Richard Call?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was he in your quonset hut?
Mr. DELGADO. No; he was in our company.
He was in a different quonset hut.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was he a friend of Oswald?
Mr. DELGADO. Semifriendly. I know personally that he used to call Oswald
Oswaldovich or Comrade. We all
called him Comrade, which is German for friend. We didn't put no communistic
influence whatsoever. But then he
made the statement saying, no, he never called Oswald "Comrade," or
anything like that, you know.
Mr. LIEBELER. Who said that?
Mr. DELGADO. Call.
Mr. LIEBELER. How do you know?
Mr. DELGADO. The FBI agent told me.
Mr. LIEBELER. The FBI agent told you that?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. You just mentioned the term "Oswaldovich"; is
that right?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes; he asked me
if anyone had called him Oswaldovich. No.
Comrade commissar; yes. We all used
to kid around that language. He used
to like it, and he would come out, we would call him "comrade," and he
would go straight, jack up and give a big impression.
But Call said he didn't. Well, that's his prerogative.
He didn't want to get mixed up in it.
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Mr. LIEBELER. But you are
pretty sure you never heard him call Oswaldovich?
Mr. DELGADO. That's right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Who is Private, First Class Wald? Was he in your hut, too?
Mr. DELGADO. He was in our outfit.
Mr. LIEBELER. And was he a friend of Oswald?
Mr. DELGADO. Just speaking acquaintances.
That's all. He didn't have
too many close friends.
Mr. LIEBELER. Who didn't?
Mr. DELGADO. Oswald And these
guys were all different, like Wald was a for
sports. And Call was the closest you
would come to Oswald, because he liked classical music and good books, now.
Mr. LIEBELER. But Wald and Osborne, they were more in sports and that
sort of thing?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. What about
Sergeant Funk? Did you mention him
to the FBI?
Mr. DELGADO Yes; Sergeant Funk wasn't in our outfit too long to know
Oswald. Oswald and him didn't hit it
off at all.
Mr. LIEBELER. How did that come about?
Mr. DELGADO. Well, one instance was when we were all standing formation,
waiting for work call. We were off
this day. And Call and some other
fellows were all around there, you know, making like they were, you know,
shooting their guns off, you know, just playing around.
So it just happens, when Funk came out Oswald was the only one doing it.
So they grabbed Oswald and rode him march with a full field pack around
the football field in the area. And he bitched when he pulled that tour of duty,
and it stuck in my mind, because it's the first time since basic that I seen
that happen. But it happened when Funk stepped out, Oswald the first one he
seen.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald complain about Funk after that?
Mr. DELGADO. He had nothing
to do with him. Always tried to find
fault. The man had a lot of faults.
He was very sloppy.
Mr. LIEBELER. Who?
Mr. DELGADO. Funk. And he had a tendency to---he was very--very bad
leader, in my opinion, because NCO's in the Marine Corps, you carry a sword, and
we loved to see him carry a sword, because when you salute him, he brings the
sword up to here (indicating) like this, and one of these days it's going to
happen, because the blade would be swinging next to his ear, and we're all
waiting for that thing to happen. That's
what I remember about Funk. He wasn't there too long.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know any
of the other fellows in the outfit who might have known Oswald?
Mr. DELGADO. No. There was
one sergeant I was trying to think of, but I couldn't think of his name. I think
I gave a name to the FBI agents, Holbrook or--something like that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember
a Corporal Botelho?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes. Botelho. He was from upstate
Mr. LIEBELER. What was his relationship with Oswald?
Mr. DELGADO. The same as the rest of the fellows: Not too close.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever have any arguments with any of these
people?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes. Quite frequently' he had arguments, but Botelho usually
would have arguments about, well, Botelho was pretty proud about his car, you
know, and Oswald would find some fault in it, not the right make he had a Chevy,
a 1956 Chevy, and one time I walked in on the discussion. I didn't know what it
was about. And they were pretty mad at each other. And, as I said, Oswald just
took off. But Botelho was a pretty quiet fellow.
Mr. LIEBELER. What about Private, First Class Roussel?
Do you remember mentioning him to the FBI agents?
Mr. DELGADO. Roussel?
Yes. He was a sports enthusiast. A
little, short
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fellow
from
Mr. LIEBELER. What rank was call?
Mr. DELGADO. At the time at
the time when Oswald was in the outfit, he was corporal. But then later on he
got promoted to a sergeant.
Mr. LIEBELER. What was your rank when you were discharged?
Mr. DELGADO. Corporal.
Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald was what?
Mr. DELGADO. Private.
Mr. LIEBELER. Just a straight
private?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever complain about the fact that he hadn't been
promoted?
Mr. DELGADO. No, never.
Never. I don't guess he expected it.
I knew he was court-martialed.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you
that?
Mr. DELGADO. No.
I got that from the scuttlebutt, one of the guys who knew him from
overseas.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear what he was court-martialed for?
Mr. DELGADO. No. After all
this came out later, I read about it.
Mr. LIEBELER. What is the silent area?
Mr. DELGADO. That's what I referred to.
He put silent area. That's
the war room.
Mr. LIEBELER. He, you mean the FBI agent?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. This is where you actually worked in watching----
Mr. DELGADO. Watching the scopes.
Mr. LIEBELER. According to the FBI agent's notes, you and Oswald were
passing notes back and forth.
Mr. DELGADO. We worked in a room similar to this, and there would be a
big plotting board there with the aircraft in flight, and radar sets would be
back there, with the officers back there, and he and I, when we weren't watching
the scopes, we would be writing down what aircraft were up, and we had a small
lamp on our table. So when we wanted to talk, he would hand a note to me.
Mr. LIEBELER. You were not permitted to talk during this time?
Mr. DELGADO. The enlisted men.
Mr. LIEBELER. The enlisted men?
Mr. DELGADO. Well, the enlisted men were permitted to talk, but not at
this ones permitted to talk were the controllers who had the aircraft
on their scopes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Your job was to watch one of the scopes?
Mr. DELGADO. Watch one of the scopes, and when we were relieved from
doing that, we sat on the front table and kept track of the aircraft on the
plotting board.
Mr. LIEBELER. So while you were actually watching the scope, you were
permitted to speak? You had to talk
at that time?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes, to the aircraft.
Mr. LIEBELER. To keep track of the aircraft?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes. That's why they didn't want too much noise in there.
Just enough for the controller to understand the pilot and vice versa.
Mr. LIEBELER. There are two of these FBI reports here that tell me that
you told the FBI that Oswald used to go to
Mr. DELGADO. I used to go to
Mr. LIEBELER. But not Oswald?
Mr. DELGADO. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you are sure that you told that to the FBI?
Mr. DELGADO. Positive.
Mr. LIEBELER. You have no
question about that at all?
Mr. DELGADO. No question about that at all.
Otherwise I wouldn't have made the statement that he had been with me one
time. It would have been common to
see him in the train station. But it
wasn't.
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Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember Lieutenant Depadro?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. What was he?
Mr. DELGADO. He was a first lieutenant. He was from
Mr. LIEBELER. Who was he?
Mr. DELGADO. He was just a
section officer. He worked as a
controller, and he was also our platoon officer.
Mr. LIEBELER. The FBI report indicates that you have told Lieutenant
Depadro that Oswald was receiving Russian language newspapers; is that correct?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes. I mentioned that to him on the way from the guard shack
at one time, and he just brushed it off. He
didn't seem to care.
Mr. LIEBELER. Who is Sergeant Lusk?
Mr. DELGADO. Our sergeant major.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember talking to the FBI agents about Sergeant
Lusk?
Mr. DELGADO. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did you tell them?
Mr. DELGADO. I told them that in one instance Sergeant Lusk had the
misfortune of waking us up in the morning. Nobody
bothered waking us up, and the formation had gathered, and we were all sleeping
away.
Mr. LIEBELER. The men in your quonset hut?
Mr. DELGADO. Right.
And I'm the one in charge of them, and about 8 o'clock in the morning I
hear the door open up, and I see this guy walking into my room.
The first thing I wake up and see was the diamond, the stripes, and he
says, "I want to see you men in the old man's office, in class A's."
So I knew it was a bad step. We
went up there, and he chewed us out for sleeping.
And on the way back he said, "You're getting as bad as Oz."
But it wasn't our fault. It
wasn't Oswald's fault. He slept away
with the rest of us. It was too far
for the CQ. And he just didn't feel
like walking that far. So I told the
agents that I was the only corporal on restriction at the same time.
Mr. LIEBELER. They restricted your barracks for that?
Mr. DELGADO. Right. Well, it's better to be restricted than to be
court-martialed for it.
Mr. LIEBELER. It is. Do you
remember discussing extradition treaties with Oswald?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. What was that discussion?
Mr. DELGADO. Any crime perpetrated in the States, say somebody was to do
something wrong in the
Mr. LIEBELER. In that discussion what did Oswald say?
Mr. DELGADO. Nothing that I remember.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he say he would go to
Mr. DELGADO. If he ever got
in trouble; yes. But this is the
period of time we are talking about, of taking over the
Now, I can't imagine who he meant. I
thought he was referring to this later case.
But the FBI agent confused me all to heck.
He told me it was a year
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later
that these two guys from the
Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald did this?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Your recollection is that he mentioned two men who also
defected to
Mr. DELGADO. The same route; yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. But the FBI man said that didn't happen until a year
afterwards?
Mr. DELGADO. A year later.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you checked up on this to find out when these men did
defect?
Mr. DELGADO. No. I took it for granted they had the scoop, you know.
I assume that I may have been interpreting these events and running the
two together. But in my estimation I don't think it was possible. I remember him
at the time mentioning two men that had defected, and we were wondering how they
got there, and he said this is how he would get there, now.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he say these two men had gone from the
Mr. DELGADO. He said, "This is the route they took. This is the way
I would go about it. This is the way they apparently did it."
Something to that effect.
Mr. LIEBELER. Your
recollection isn't too clear on that?
Mr. DELGADO. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. But you do recall that Oswald mentioned that if he were
going to go to
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you read in the newspapers after the assassination
that
Mr. DELGADO. Yes; that he was in
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you read in the newspaper that Oswald had gone to
Mr. DELGADO. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. You had never read that in the newspaper?
Mr. DELGADO. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't know that before now?
Mr. DELGADO. No; outside of him being in
Mr. LIEBELER. Well, now, I am not saying that he actually went to
Mr. DELGADO. Or had any----
Mr. LIEBELER. I am saying he went to
Mr. DELGADO. I didn't read that far.
Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't read that?
Mr. DELGADO. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. So there is no chance that you read this later and are
confusing this as something that Oswald said before?
Mr. DELGADO. No. This was definitely said then, in 1959, and according to
the FBI records this supposed same route or near to the same route was done in
1960 or 1961.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you and Oswald ever talk about religion?
Mr. DELGADO. He was--he didn't believe in God. He's a devout atheist.
That's the only thing he and I didn't discuss, because he knew I was religious.
Mr. LIEBELER. He knew that you are religious?
Mr. DELGADO. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. You are religious?
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Mr. DELGADO. Well, to the effect that I believe there is a God or a
Maker.
Mr. LIEBELER. You attend church regularly?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes; and in one instance he told me that God was a myth or a
legend, that basically our whole life is built around this one falsehood, and
things like that. I didn't like that
kind of talk.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you
remember anything else that he said about religion?
Mr. DELGADO. No; outside of condemning anything that had to do with
religion, you know. He laughed.
He used to laugh at Sunday school, you know, mimic the guys that fell out
to go to church on Sundays. He
himself never went.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever
quote from the Bible or anything like that?
Mr. DELGADO. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever
make fun of the Bible?
Mr. DELGADO. No. It was just
being a good book, written by a few men, you know, that had gotten together and
wrote up a novel. That's all.
Outside of being a well-written book, there's no fact to it.
Mr. LIEBELER. But he didn't quote sections from the Bible just to show
how wrong it was?
Mr. DELGADO. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to the FBI men about this question?
Mr. DELGADO. No. I don't think I did. They asked me about religion, and I
told them he was an atheist. That's
all.
Mr. LIEBELER. You don't remember telling them that Oswald used to quote
from the Bible and show you how wrong it was and tried to make it look silly?
Mr. DELGADO. No.
That was typical of him.
Mr. LIEBELER. But you have no recollection of him doing that?
Mr. DELGADO. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any recollection of telling the FBI men he did
that?
Mr. DELGADO. No; I don't.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, this question of socialism, discussions of socialism
that you had with Oswald: Did he
compare that with the military life?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did he say about that?
Mr. DELGADO. Well, this is--military life is the closest to the Socialist
way of life, where you had--let's see. How
did he phrase it---everything was common or something like that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald seem to think that socialism would be a good
thing?
Mr. DELGADO. That's right, for people.
If they worked for the military, they could work for everybody, instead
of everybody being an individualist and just a few of them having--if they all
got together in one common denominator, if everybody worked with the state
owning everything, and everybody worked for the state.
Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald didn't really like the Marine Corps, did he?
Mr. DELGADO. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. How could he say that socialism was like the military, and
like socialism, and still hate the military?
Mr. DELGADO. He liked the
life but hated the military. Some
people love to be bossed around, you know, and told what to do.
Yet, the same people may not like for certain individuals, let's say like
Sergeant Funk, for instance, to tell them what to do.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever have the feeling that Oswald disliked
discipline as a general proposition, or just individual people that told him
what to do?
Mr. DELGADO. I would say discipline by certain individuals, you know. He
used to take orders from a few people there without no trouble at all.
Just a few people that didn't like him or he didn't like them, or he
thought to be---he thought Funk to be too stupid to give him any kind of order.
That was beyond his level. That was fact. This man was a complete moron,
according to Oswald. Why should he, because he's been longer, have the authority
to give him orders, you know? So he
had no respect for him. If he had respect, he would follow, go along with you.
But if he thought you to be inferior to him or mentally--mental idiot, he
wouldn't like anything you told him to do.
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Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember any other discussions about this
comparison of socialism with the Marine Corps or the military?
(Short recess.)
(Question read.)
Mr. DELGADO. Well, according
to the point where he would bring out that the military, there was always one
boss, and if he tells everybody to do something, they all do it with no
question, and everything runs along smoothly. But in our government, no one
person could give that order where the whole populace would obey or act to it.
There were a whole bunch of individualists. Some may, some won't, and some would
argue about it. That's not the same exact word he used, but that's----
Mr. LIEBELER. He indicated that he thought it was a good thing that
somebody should give orders like this and----
Mr. DELGADO. That everybody would obey without question.
Mr. LIEBELER. Were you surprised when you learned that Oswald had gone to
the
Mr. DELGADO, Yes; I was.
Mr. LIEBELER. You had no reason to believe----
Mr. DELGADO. No.
Mr. LIEBELER From your association with him that he was intending to do
any such thing?
Mr. DELGADO. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. While he was in the Marine Corps; is that correct?
Mr. DELGADO. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. He never spoke to you or indicated to you in any way that
he planned to go to
Mr. DELGADO. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. You thought he was going, as you mentioned before----
Mr. DELGADO. To
Mr. LIEBELER. To school in
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. You are absolutely certain that you did not indicate to the
FBI that Oswald accompanied you to
Mr. DELGADO. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. You just told them he went with you once?
Mr. DELGADO. Once.
Mr. LIEBELER. In connection with this discussion of extradition treaties,
did Oswald say that he would go to
Mr. DELGADO. He had mentioned Russia as a place of refuge if he ever got
into any trouble, but the answers went around to the other countries, well, I
would say, "excluding Russia or Cuba, Argentina would be the next
best."
Mr. LIEBELER. But you didn't get any impression from him that he intended
to go to
Mr. DELGADO. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. This was just a general discussion of extradition treaties?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Just general conversation?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. This Pfc,
Roussel----
Mr. DELGADO. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Henry R.
Roussel, Jr.?
Mr. DELGADO. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. He was from
Mr. DELGADO. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Roussel was from
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember discussing Roussel with the FBI?
Mr. DELGADO. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember telling them where he was from?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did you tell them?
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Mr. DELGADO.
Mr. LIEBELER. This is when you were at
Mr. DELGADO. No; this is at the terminal when we got discharged. Roussel
was on leave. I was discharged.
I took Call--Call was discharged also, and Call and myself and Roussel
and another two or three two other guys, we made a trip to the east coast, but
we went down to the South to take Roussel home. And I remember it well, because
it was the year Billy Cannon was famous down there at the LSU.
Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't tell the FBI that Roussel was from
Mr. DELGADO. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember this Pfc.
Mr. DELGADO. Don.
Mr. LIEBELER. Don?
Mr. DELGADO. Don.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember him as knowing Spanish to about the same
extent that Oswald knew Spanish, or more or less?
What is your recollection on that?
Mr. DELGADO. He knew less than Oswald did when Oswald--the last time I
seen Oswald.
Mr. LIEBELER. How would you describe
Mr. DELGADO. Not too good. In his particular instance it was phrases, you
know, that kind of talk.
Mr. LIEBELER. So that you weren't as successful in your attempts to
teach----
Mr. DELGADO. I didn't have the time.
See, when we were in
Mr. LIEBELER. Did
Mr. DELGADO. He lived about--after I got there, about 2 months, and then
his wife he went to
Mr. LIEBELER. What did most of the marines call Oswald?
Did they call him Lee or----
Mr. DELGADO. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald, just by his last name?
Mr. DELGADO. Just Os or
Oswald. Very seldom do you find in
the military, at least I haven't come in contact with, where one fellow referred
to another fellow by the first name. It's
always by the last name, mainly because the name is written on his jacket, you
know. I didn't even know his name
was Lee.
Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't know that his first name was Lee?
Mr. DELGADO. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you say that you, concerning your contact with
Murray, just taught him a few phrases or answered questions when he asked you
questions about Spanish, or would you say that you engaged in any kind of real
program to teach him Spanish?
Mr. DELGADO. No; just answer some questions he had or phrases that he
wanted interpreted, that's it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember
a fellow by the name of Charley Brown in your outfit?
Mr. DELGADO. Charley Brown?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.
Mr. DELGADO. No; that is a name I gave him. I believe it was one of the
fellows that was in the barracks with us at one time or another, Charley Brown,
but I can't recall.
Mr. LIEBELER. That doesn't ring a bell?
Mr. DELGADO. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you mention the name of Charley Brown to the FBI?
Mr. DELGADO. I may have. We got a Charley Brown in our outfit now.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now?
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Mr. DELGADO. Yes; but I may have, may not have mentioned Charley Brown. I
gave them the name of who I thought---felt who the one or two colored fellows
were, but I couldn't think of it, and just made a stab in the dark.
Mr. LIEBELER. You don't remember what the name was that you told the FBI
now?
Mr. DELGADO. No; Walt, Walt--
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you think of anything else about Oswald that you think
might be of some help to the Commission in its investigation?
Mr. DELGADO. He didn't like
the immediate people over him in this particular outfit. All of them weren't as
intelligent as he was in his estimation.
Mr. LIEBELER. What about your estimation, did you think that they were as
smart as Oswald was?
Mr. DELGADO. Oswald, I remember, for instance, that Oswald used to get in
heated discussions with a couple of the officers there.
Mr. LIEBELER. The officers?
Mr. DELGADO. Right. And they'd be talking about let's say, politics,
which came up quite frequently during a break, let's say, and I would say out of
the conversation Oswald had them stumped about four out of five times. They just
ran out of words, they couldn't come back, you know. And every time this
happened, it made him feel twice as good, you know. He thought himself quite
proficient with current events and politics.
Mr. LIEBELER. He used to
enjoy doing this to the officers, I could imagine.
Mr. DELGADO. He used to cut up anybody that was high ranking, he used to
cut up-and make himself come out top dog. That's why whenever he got in a
conversation that wasn't going his way he would get mad, he'd just walk off, you
know, and leave.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you think of anything else about him?
Mr. DELGADO. He didn't drink. He didn't drink too much. Occasional beer.
I never seen him drunk.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any reason to think that he had any homosexual
tendencies?
Mr. DELGADO. No; never once.
It was odd that he wouldn't go out with girls, but never once did he show
any indications of being that. In
fact we had two fellows in our outfit that were caught at it, and he thought it
was kind of disgusting that they were in the same outfit with us, and that is
also in the records of the outfit, these two fellows they caught.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever tell you why he wasn't interested in girls or
did you ever discuss that with him?
Mr. DELGADO. No; I figured this fellow here looked to me like he was
studying and applying himself for a goal, he wanted to become somebody, you know
what I mean; later on, after he reached that goal, he will go and get married,
or something like that; but the time I knew him he was more or less interested
in reading and finding out different ideas here and there. That is, he'd ask
what we thought of a current crisis, you know, and he'd argue that point.
Mr. LIEBELER. He was a pretty serious-minded fellow?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes; he was.
Very seldom clowned around, you know.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think
he had much of a sense of humor?
Mr. DELGADO. No; he didn't appreciate it. You couldn't pull a practical
joke on him, very sarcastic sneer all the time, you know.
He had only one bad charteristic, one thing that can really identify him
was a quirk he had. I don't know what it was, when he spoke, the side of his
face would sink in and cause a hollow and he'd kind of speak through open lips
like that, you know, and that's the only thing you could remember about Oswald
when he spoke, you know, something like that, you know [indicating].
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever
think that he was mentally unbalanced?
Mr. DELGADO. He never got real mad where he'd show any ravings of any
sort, you know. He controlled himself pretty good.
Mr. LIEBELER. If you can't remember anything else about Oswald, I have no
more questions. On behalf of the
Commission I want to thank you very much.
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