Ho me Z - FILM AL T ERRED
Z - FILM AL T ERED
William Ke lly
Jan 31 2010, 07: 57 PM
Po st # 1
Supe r Me mbe r
Gro up: Me mbe rs
Po st s: 5008
Jo ine d: 20- O c t o be r 05
Me mbe r No .: 3667
Transc ribe d by William Ke lly - January , 2010
ARRB Int e rvie w wit h NPIC Emplo ye e Ho me r Mc Maho n
He aring Dat e July 14, 1997
Int e rvie we d by Do uglas P . Ho rne Chie f o f Milit ary Re c o rds o f ARRB
To t al T ime 1: 41: 19
Do uglas Ho rne :
D.H.: O kay , it is Mo nday , July 14t h, 1997, my name is Do ug Ho rne . I am wit h t he AARB. I am he re wit h Mr . Ho me r Mc Maho n, f o rme r NPIC e mplo ye e – Nat io nal Pho t o Int e rpre t at io n Ce nt e r . And I am also he re wit h
Mic he lle Co mbs ( sp?) o f t he AARB. And we be f o re we be gin I wo uld like t o c o nf irm wit h yo u o n t he re c o rd, is it o kay , do we have yo ur pe rmissio n t o t ape t his int e rvie w?
Ho me r Mc Maho n: Ye s, I am Ho me r Mc Maho n, I wasn' t NPIC, I was wit h t he CIA. T hat was my c o ve r at t he t ime , and yo u have my pe rmissio n. At t he t ime NPIC was a c lassif ie d t o pic .
DH. Ye s, sir . O kay . T hank yo u ve ry muc h. We may be jo ine d lat e r; t his is f o r t he re c o rd, by Mr . Je re my Gunn o f t he Re vie w Bo ard st af f and also by a ne w e mplo ye e ( Marie B.?) who is in t he building t o day also . Co uld
yo u summariz e f o r us sir , yo ur pro f e ssio nal e xpe rie nc e and t raining in pho t o graphy prio r t o and up t o 1963.
HM: I st art e d in pho t o graphy in 1938.
D.H.: O kay .
HM: I wo rke d o ne summe r at t he FBI lab. I' m no t sure o f t hat summe r . [Po ssible Re dac t io n e dit ] My bo ss was Dunlap, who lat e r be c ame , le f t and we nt int o busine ss f o r himse lf and I wo rke d f o r him part t ime , at
dif f e re nt t ime s.
I was in pho t o graphy whe n I was in high sc ho o l whe n I wo rke d as t he pho t o graphe r o n t he ye arbo o k c o mmit t e e . I use d t o wo rk at …f o r Po p Bake r , and t hat was at t he Ko dak pho t o f inishing at Ge o rge t o wn, also a
summe r sc ho o l. I was in pho t o graphy o n t he GI bill, I we nt t o t he Nat io nal Sc ho o l o f Pho t o graphy and I we nt t o t he Washingt o n Sc ho o l o f Pho t o graphy , and I t o o k se ve ral e xt e nsio n c o urse s at t he US GS Graduat e
Sc ho o l at t he Law Enf o rc e me nt Inst it ut e o f Pat ho lo gy at Walt e r Re e d.
I t o o k se ve ral c o urse s up at Ro c he st e r in Binghamt o n, unde r…..and Binghamt o n Ko dak, at Ro c he st e r . O t he r t han t hat , I ne ve r had a de gre e in pho t o graphy . In t ho se days it was st ric t ly vo c at io nal. T he re was no ,
yo u c o uld ge t a mast e rs de gre e up t he re …MBA, but I ne ve r….. o r wo rke d o n t hat le ve l, ….t o make nat io nal pre se nt at io ns. I was a me mbe r o f t he Pro f e ssio nal Pho t o graphe rs o f Ame ric a.
I we nt t o c o lle ge o n t he GI Bill at t he e nd o f t he Se c o nd Wo rld War . And t he n I we nt t o wo rk f o r t he CIA. My me nt o r Me l Fro mm ( sp. pho ne t ic ) was an o ld O SS o pe rat ive during t he Se c o nd Wo rld War . His dad ran
t he Nat io nal Sc ho o l o f Pho t o graphy; I spe nt t wo ye ars t he re , and he go t me a jo b int e rvie w wit h t he CIA. I we nt o ut .....?...St re e t . T hat was print ing se rvic e s divisio n, ....T hat was Aust in Yo ung ( ?) . I wo rke d t he re f o r
t wo o r t hre e ye ars. T he n I we nt int o busine ss f o r myse lf f o r f ive ye ars, and t he n we nt bac k f o r I t hink t e n ye ars….
DH: We nt bac k t o t he Age nc y?
HM: Ye a, but I didn' t go bac k t o t he print ing se rvic e divisio n, I we nt t o t he Sc ie nc e Divisio n. Whe n St e wart ' s Garage c lo se d do wn, ah, …Ke nne dy' s bro t he r Bo b go t t hat built . It was a spe c ial building, it was be hind
t he barrie r , t he barrie r walls, it c o uldn' t be pe ne t rat e d. It was in t he Navy Yard and I wo rke d t he re f o r I gue ss c lo se t o t e n ye ars. And t hat ' s whe n I was c hie f o f t he c o lo r lab, GS 1 1 – st e p 7, was my grade whe n I
wo rke d t he re .
DH: What . Do yo u re c all what ye ar it was t hat yo u re t urne d t o t he CIA and wo rke d f o r abo ut t e n ye ars, what ye ar it was, mo re o r le ss?
HM: No , I do n' t have an ac c urat e re c o lle c t io n.
DH: O kay . It wo uld be , c e rt ainly be f o re 1963, it wo uld be in t he 50s pe rhaps?
HM: O h, ye a. Ye s.
DH: O kay . Whe n yo u we nt bac k t o t he CIA f o r t he se c o nd t ime , we re yo u wo rking at t he St e wart s Mo t o rs building wit h…?
HM: No . I didn' t wo rk in t he St e wart Garage ; I' m no t go ing t o name name s o f pe o ple t hat I wo rke d wit h…
DH: O kay .
HM: I c o uld give yo u Mike …..he ' s re t ire d, he wo rke d at t he St e wart s but he re t ire d, and I t alke d t o him, and he said he c o uld ge t me an int e rvie w, and I was wo rking f o r Aust in Yo ung, ….right t he re at Kingst o n,
o r….King St re e t , I f o rge t whic h, - he c ame o ve r and int e rvie we d me and I t ransf e rre d. I was L V16, I was unde r t he GP A sc ale , I was in t he Print ing Se rvic e s Divisio n.
DH: O kay . Le t me go o f f t he re c o rd and int ro duc e yo u t o so me pe o ple who just arrive d.
DH: O kay bac k o n t he re c o rd. Mr . Je re my Gunn, Marie ( B.?) and St e ve T ille y have jo ine d us.
Mr . Mc Maho n do yo u re me mbe r whe n yo u be c ame he ad o f t he Co lo r Lab?
HM: Whe n I we nt o ve r I was hire d f o r t hat po sit io n and I t ransf e rre d f ro m a L V19 t o a GS 1 1 st e p 7.
DH: Appro ximat e ly what ye ar was t hat ?
HM: Lat e 50s.
DH: O kay , lat e 50s. We re yo u wo rking at t he Nat io nal Pho t o Int e rpre t at io n Ce nt e r in No ve mbe r , 1963?
HM: Ye s.
DH: O kay . We spo ke pre vio usly o n t he t e le pho ne o n June 9, Mr . Dave Mo nt ahue and I c alle d yo u. Yo u me nt io ne d t o us during t hat t e le pho ne c all t hat yo u we re invo lve d in analysis and o t he r e ve nt s wit h a ho me
mo vie o f t he assassinat io n. Can yo u t e ll us ho w yo u f irst he ad abo ut t his and who t o ld yo u t o c o me int o wo rk?
HM: O kay . I wasn' t an analyst . T hat was a t e c hnic al t e rm f o r so me o ne who did pho t o int e rpre t at io n in my branc h. I was a pho t o - t e c hno lo gist . What I did I t ime d…t o my be st re c o lle c t io n, I was I wo rke d in t he vault e d
are a be hind t he barrie r wit h pre t t y se nsit ive mat e rial. My c lassif ic at io n allo we d me t o wo rk o n anyt hing and e ve ryt hing t hat I had ne e d t o kno w, and I wo n' t t e ll yo u what t ho se we re …..but ….
DH: And I wo n' t ask.
HM: We had…it was…..a wo rld be yo nd. We had unlimit e d budge t ….we had anyt hing we want e d t o buy . Unlimit e d mo ne y . It was a palac e , it was Lundahl' s Palac e . I t hink t he y said 90% o f int e llige nc e c ame f ro m o ur
o pe rat io n. And t hat was, t hat was what t he analysist s and pho t o int e rpre t e rs did. T he y kne w alo ng wit h, …I was in t he sc ie nc e are a, but t he y also had ac c e ss and use d o t he r inf o rmat io n.
But t he be st I c an re me mbe r ho w I c ame t o wo rk o n t his pro je c t . O f c o urse , we all he ard o f yo u kno wn t hat mo t o rc ade whe re Ke nne dy go t kille d, and I t hink we shut up sho p and we nt ho me e arly af t e r t hat . And it
was wit hin t he ne xt t wo days a c hap was int ro duc e d t o me , and I was swo rn t o his se c re c y; it had no t hing t o do wit h t he age nc y' s se c re c y . And he was, t o t he be st o f my kno wle dge , he was int ro duc e d as Bill
Smit h, …
DH: Bill Smit h, o f …what ….?
HM: O h, Se c re t Se rvic e , he was an age nt . He had go t t e n a ro ll o f f ilm dire c t ly f ro m t he pe rso n t hat had pho t o graphe d it who c alle d t he Se c re t Se rvic e and t o ld t he m t hat he t ho ught he had o n f ilm he sho t wit h a
lit t le Bro wnie Do uble 8, and he t o o k it , he t o o k it t o Ro c he st e r . We had a divisio n up t he re - I wo n' t ge t int o t hat , but t he y pro c e sse d t he f ilm, it was Ko dac ro me , I t hink I o r II, t he daylight ve rsio n, whic he ve r t hat is,
it was Do uble 8 and, af t e r he go t it pro c e sse d, t he y t o ld him t he re t hat we we re pro bably t he o nly plac e t hat had t he e quipme nt t hat c o uld do what he want e d t o , - t ake e ve ry f rame o n t he re , o f t he e nt ire e ve nt , and
make t he be st po ssible qualit y re pro duc t io ns.
DH: Whe n yo u say t he y t o ld him, who do yo u me an?
HM: We ll. ( Ha, ha, ) …We ll, East man Ko dak had c o nt rac t s wit h t he US go ve rnme nt , and if yo u want t o kno w, yo u c an go t o t he CIA and t he y will t e ll yo u who t o ld him, but he go t t he f ilm pro c e sse d, and he bro ught it
t o us, and he and t hre e o t he r pe o ple t ime d t he f ilm, f o r t hro ugh o bse rvat io n yo u c an t e ll whe re t he gunsho t s ac t ually c ause d t he hit s and slumps. We didn' t kno w anyt hing abo ut any audio , it was just visual, and we
t ime d it , and de t e rmine d t he t ime - physic ally t ime d it wit h a st o p wat c h, whe re t he gunsho t s hit s hit . And we we nt f ro m I t hink maybe t wo f rame s be f o re t he f irst hit and t he n we hit e ve ry single f rame t hru….He
o nly c o unt e d t hre e hit s, po ssibly f o ur . I c o uldn' t t e ll I t hink, whe n Co nnally go t hit . It was o bvio us whe n he go t hit t he f irst t ime , and t he n t he se c o nd t ime he go t hit , go ing o f f int o an angle up, and…..
DH: Co uld I bre ak in and ask yo u a que st io n? Whe n yo u say he and t hre e o t he rs t ime d t he f ilm, do e s t his me an t hat yo u pe o ple vie we d it as a mo t io n pic t ure ?
HM: Ye s, we we re in a brie f ing ro o m, wit h a c ame ra and a large sc re e n - yo u said I c o uld use Be n Hunt e r' s name ? I wo rke d wit h Be n Hunt e r , Be n Hunt e r I t hink he was a GS 7 and he was wo rking wit h me as a t raine e
at t he t ime in t he c o lo r lab, and Bill Smit h, ah, ….e xc use me , t he re we re t hre e o f us, inc luding myse lf ( ha, ha) , t hat ' s it . To t he be st o f my kno wle dge .
DH: So t he t o t al numbe r o f pe o ple are - yo urse lf , Be n Hunt e r and Bill Smit h?
HM: Ye s. T hat ' s all t hat we re invo lve d t o my kno wle dge .
DH: Ho w we re yo u f irst no t if ie d t o go in? Did t his happe n during t he wo rk day o r af t e r ho urs? O r ho w did t he y f irst no t if y yo u?
HM: I have n' t t he f aint e st ide a, be c ause I' ve be e n c alle d in so many t ime s…ah…
DH: Fo r o t he r jo bs, right ? Do yo u re c all whe t he r yo u did t he jo b during t he day?
Je re my Gunn: I just want t o make sure f o r t he re c o rd. Whe n yo u say yo u we re c alle d in many t ime s, yo u me an f o r o t he r jo bs?
HM: Whe n t he go o se laid t he e gg, we we nt o n 12 t o 12, 12 ho ur shif t s unt il we wo rke d o ut t he missio n. I do n' t t hink t hat ' s impo rt ant . T he o t he r wo rk I did had no t hing t o do wit h t his.
DH: T hat ' s what t he que st io n was….whe n yo u said t hat st at e me nt , we re yo u re f e rring t o t his part ic ular f ilm o r o t he r jo bs?
HM: O kay , …I had o t he r c le aranc e s, but no ne o f t he se c le aranc e s t hat we re give n t o me unde r t he CIA o r o t he r c le aranc e s t hat I he ld f o r o t he r go ve rnme nt age nc ie s, t his was unde r st ric t ly a, I was t o ld t hat no ne
o f t his was t o be divulge d t o anyo ne . We had it , we did it , but I didn' t kno w who was go ing t o be brie f e d…..My gue ss, we no rmally brie f e d t he Jo int Chie f s o f St af f , t he Nat io nal Re c o nnaissanc e Co mmit t e e , and t he
Pre side nt o f t he Unit e d St at e s, wit h t he wo rk t hat I did. I didn' t do any o f t he analysis. I just did t he c o lo r part t hat was use d in t he brie f ing bo ards, and t he Te le pro mpt e rs and t hat kind o f wo rk, and it was also
dist ribut e d unde r To p Se c re t c lassif ic at io ns t o t he c o mmunit y .
JG: We we re o nly t rying t o c larif y if yo u we re c alle d in se ve ral t ime s, yo u we re o nly c alle d o nc e f o r t he f ilm o f t he assassinat io n.
HM: I wo rke d o n t hat o ne , and I wo rke d o n it unt il it was c o mple t e d and I t hink it was pro bably mo re t han a wo rk day .
HM: Whe n we spo ke o n June 9
t h
, yo u indic at e d t hat yo u we re c alle d in and yo u wo rke d basic ally all night lo ng. Do e s t hat re f re sh yo ur re c o lle c t io n?
HM: Ye s, …I do n' t t hink it was during my no rmal….I didn' t kno w what I was be ing c alle d in f o r . I didn' t have t he f aint e st ide a.
HM: Wo uld yo u allo w me t o t e st yo ur re c o lle c t io n o n so me t hing e lse ? Yo u said it was wit hin t wo days o f t he assassinat io n. Is t he re any part ic ular re aso n why yo u asso c iat e d it wit h o t he r e ve nt s wit hin a f e w days?
HM: I t hink I was t o ld t hat t o ge t t he f ilm f ro m t he individual, t o ge t it pro c e sse d, and ge t it bac k, it was a c o uple o f days. I' m no t sure .
DH: Do yo u re c all whe t he r t his wo rk t hat yo u did was be f o re t he f une ral o r af t e r t he f une ral o f t he pre side nt ?
HM: I' m pre t t y sure it was be f o re .
DH: Be f o re we ge t int o so me de t ails o f what yo u did, ho w wo uld yo u be st summariz e t he t asking t hat yo ur age nc y re c e ive d f ro m Mr . Smit h? Co uld yo u re visit t hat t o pic again?
HM: O kay . I do n' t kno w ho w it c ame t hro ugh c hanne ls t o us. I wasn' t t o ld t hat . What I' m re f le c t ing is what I t hink happe ne d. I kno w it wasn' t unde r any o f t he c le aranc e s I he ld, and I kno w it was be ing do ne f o r
analysis and brie f ing, but I' m no t sure who t hat was f o r .
DH: O kay . And what is it t hat he want e d yo u t o do again, o ne mo re t ime ?
HM: O kay , what he want e d us t o do , af t e r we c ame t o a de c isio n, af t e r we had t ime d it , was t o t ake a f rame by f rame pre se nt at io n o f t hat se que nc e , and make a…be st re c o lle c t io n f ive by se ve n int e rlays and I
print e d up e ight by t e n…Be n Hunt e r and myse lf , e xpo se d t he m and pro c e sse d t he m. T he n we had a pe rio d o f t ime we had t o wait f o r t he drying o f t he mat e rial, and t he n we we nt bac k and vie we d all o f t he
ne gat ive s, and we had t he m marke d and ide nt if ie d as t o t he se que nc e , and we made t hre e e ac h c o lo r c o nt ac t print s, and again t he n we we nt bac k and pro c e sse d t ho se and had t o wait f o r t he drying. Ah…
DH: So t he c o lo r print s we re t he same siz e t he n as t he int e r ne gat ive ?
HM: I' m pre t t y sure we c o nt ac t e d t he 8 x 10 ne gat ive s t hat we re e xpo se d…. And t he n t he y we re c ut apart and ide nt if ie d o n t he bac k, and I did no t do t hat , t he ide nt if ic at io n, I do n' t t hink I did t hat , I might have .
JG: It wasn' t c le ar t o me abo ut t he ne gat ive s and t he int e rne gat ive s. Yo u re f e r t o t he re be ing f ive by se ve n and e ight by t e n…. I do n' t kno w whe t he r t he y we re se parat e t hings o r we re yo u we re re f e rring….
HM: It ' s c alle d a wo rking…..Yo u t ake an 8 by 10 ne gat ive and print a f ive by se ve n o n a f ive by e ight , yo u print a ……t he n t urn it …se t up t he liquid gat e , and make t he o t he r o ne , and t he n put it in t he bo x. So yo u
f inish say t he f irst t wo and mo ve t he f rame t o t he t hird f rame . T his was pre c isio n e quipme nt t o make a o ne st age e nlarge me nt , and my be st gue ss is 40 x, is what we made t he lit t le image t o .
DH: By t hat yo u me an 40 t ime s t he o riginal siz e ?
HM: 40 t ime s t he half f rame supe r do uble e ight …o r what e ve r it was, we had t hre e dif f e re nt , we had a t e n t we nt y f o rt y….
DH: Is t hat t he e nlarging mac hine ?
HM: Ye s, t hat ' s t he e nlarging mac hine . Yo u se t it up wit h – t his is a c o he re nt light so urc e e nlarge r…We se t it up wit h a spe c if ic o pt ic al le ns, and a spe c if ic c o nde nse r , and a c o lo r pac k CC f ilt e rs, so we c o uld
e xpo se all t hre e laye rs o f t he Ko dac ro me o n t he se ne gat ive s.
DH: Yo u me nt io ne d we t gat e a mo me nt ago ?
HM: Ye a, it ' s a liquid gat e , a liquid gat e , it was t wo part s o f a…..o kay , we made o ur o wn liquid. And what t he purpo se o f t he liquid was, - it has a re f rac t io n inde x t o e liminat e t he surf ac e s o f t he f ilm whic h de grade
t he image , t he f ro nt and bac k surf ac e . It was c alle d 10- 20- 40 f luid, and t o my kno wle dge it was t wo part s o f ……( pause ) ……I do n' t have ….I c an' t re me mbe r t he …..
DH: It ' s alright . Was t his applie d by hand o r f ull imme rsio n we t gat e ?
HM: Yo u had ….inje c t io n….yo u had f ro nt le ns c o me do wn…it was pre c isio n e quipme nt , wit h t he e xc e ssive f luid we nt o ut , so it was f ull gat e , almo st like a mic ro sc o pe . And if yo u have air bubble s in it , yo u have t o
go bac k and st art again and re inje c t it and bring it bac k do wn.
DH: Alright . May I ask ano t he r que st io n be f o re we mo ve alo ng? Yo u me nt io ne d Do uble 8 f ilm a f e w t ime s. Do yo u re c all t he c o ndit io n o f t his mo vie whe n yo u saw it , had it be e n slit o r unslit ?
HM: I t hink it was unslit and I might have said t hat , and we might have slit it be f o re we use d it , but I t ho ught t he y we re t o ld t hat t he y didn' t want t o slit t he f ilm, and I do n' t , I do n' t t hink we slit it , I t hink we use d it
unslit in a 16 mm pro je c t o r…
DH: T hat was go ing t o be my ne xt que st io n, ho w did yo u pro je c t it ?
HM: I t hink it was unslit . T his was t he o riginal f ilm. I t hink t he y ran dupe s o f it , but we ac t ually ran t he ac quisit io n mat e rial o f t he o riginal f ilm.
DH: Is t his so me t hing yo u o bse rve d yo urse lf o r so me t hing t hat yo u we re t o ld by Mr . Smit h? Ho w do yo u c o me t o t he c o nc lusio n t o day t hat yo u had t he o riginal f ilm?
HM: I t hink it was a c o mbinat io n o f e ve ryt hing yo u said, alo ng wit h, ah, t he qualit y o f t he f ilm. No rmally whe n yo u dupe it , yo u lo o se a lo t o f re so lut io n and whe n we made t he m yo u c o uld ac t ually….Ko dac ro me is an
addit ive pro c e ss. It ' s blac k and whit e f ilm wit h f ile rs t hat give yo u c o lo r se parat io n ne gat ive s, yo u use ….die s….f lash t he m and re de ve lo p t he m se le c t ive ly o nt o t he o riginal f ilm, and it has a ye llo w c o uple r , a
mage nt a c o uple r , and c yan c o uple r t hat give yo u t he t hre e subt rac t ive primary c o lo rs t hat give yo u t he illusio n o f image and c o lo r and t he re was ve ry lit t le die t hat c hange s, …. it was e xc e lle nt image ry , and I do n' t
kno w if t hat st ill e xist s o r no t , but I' m pre t t y sure t hat ' s what I use d.
DH: O kay . O ne mo re f o llo w up o n t he f irst part o f t he int e rvie w, and t he n we ' ll mo ve alo ng. Ho w c e rt ain are yo u t hat Mr . Smit h said he we nt do wn t o pic k up t he f ilm f ro m t he pe rso n who t o o k it and t he n t o o k it t o
Ro c he st e r? Are yo u...
HM: I kno w he t o o k it t o Ro c he st e r , and I' m no t c e rt ain o t he r t han I t hink he said he go t it f ro m t he o riginal pe rso n himse lf , but I am no t po sit ive . I am po sit ive t hat he said t hat he t o o k it t o Ro c he st e r , and go t it
pro c e sse d, and t he n bro ught it t o us t o dupe it . Ro c he st e r wasn' t se t up t o do t hat st uf f .
DH: In t he se nse t hat yo u had t he big e nlarge r and t he y did no t ?
HM: We had a c o mple t e wo rld be yo nd f ac ilit y ( ha, ha) , a mult i- billio n do llar pho t o lab, t hat t he Ke nne dy bro t he rs go t built f o r us in what , t hre e mo nt hs I t hink. T he y mo ve d o ut o f t he St e wart right in.
DH: Did t he NPIC re lo c at e af t e r t he Cuban Missile Crisis? Was it af t e r t he Cuban Missile Crisis in O c t o be r 1962 t hat yo u mo ve d?
HM: Whe n was Ke nne dy' s inaugurat io n t ake plac e ?
DH: January 1961
HM: It was sho rt ly af t e r t hat .
DH: Do yo u re me mbe r t he appro ximat e numbe r o f int e rne gat ive s t hat yo u made ?
HM: It was be f o re t he Cuban Missile Crisis, be c ause I….but I' m no t go ing t o t alk abo ut t hat . No w what was t hat que st io n again?
DH: Do yo u re me mbe r t he appro ximat e numbe r o f f rame s o n t he f ilm t hat yo u made int e rne gat ive s?
HM: T he be st re c o lle c t io n is 40 ( pause ) , and it might have be e n 20, be t we e n 20 and 40.
DH: And whic h pe rso n in t he ro o m de c ide d whic h, who de c ide d whic h f rame s wo uld…?
HM: We all did….
DH: It was a jo int t hing? ….
HM: Ye a, but in hindsight , Smit h said af t e rward t hat he wishe d he had do ne t he who le damn ro le .
DH: Whe n did he say t hat ?
HM: Af t e r we we re f inishe d ( ha ha) .
DH: Af t e r yo u vie we d it as a mo t io n pic t ure , ho w did yo u, did yo u lay it o ut o n a light t able and use a lo o p, what did yo u do f o r f urt he r st udy? I' m t rying t o ask yo u t o re c all t he pro c e ss?
HM: O kay . Af t e r it was vie we d, and I' m no t sure we use d a dupe o r we use d o r… ac quisit io n. We might have use d a dupe ro le t o pro je c t it . I kno w he had dupe s made o f it , and ye s, we c o uld use lo o ps and we c o uld
visually lo o k at t hat , but whe n yo u put it in t he t ype o f e quipme nt we had, yo u c an ac t ually physic ally se e it o n t he vac uum bo ard whe re t he f ilm go e s.
DH: T hat wo uld be supe rio r t o t he lo o ps vie wing?
HM: Ye s, and we also use d a T in- x magnif ie r t o grain f o c us t he image , e ac h image , be f o re we e xpo se d it o n t he int e r- ne gat ive , so we ac t ually we re ge t t ing t he ac quisit io n, t he grain o n t he ac quisit io n mat e rial int o
sharp f o c us, be c ause yo u c o uldn' t se e t he image so t e n t ime s f o rt y is f o ur hundre d…
DH: So yo u we re f o c using o n t he ac t ual grain?
HM: We ll, it ' s no t ac t ually grain; Ko dac ro me , t he grain is in t he ne gat ive , and yo u de ve lo p t hre e blac k and whit e ne gat ive s and t he n yo u se le c t ive ly e xpo se t he m wit h t he re d, gre e n and blue light and de ve lo p t he
c o mple me nt ary , adde d t he primary c o lo rs, whic h are t he primary c o lo rs, mage nt a, ye llo w and c yan c o uple rs, so whe n t he se are all de ve lo pe d o n t he t ri pac k o f f ilm yo u have , yo u have a po sit ive die image . T he
ne gat ive had t he grain; t he po sit ive had a re c ipro c al die image , whic h wo uld have be e n a muc h f ine r grain o f silve r . O kay t he c he mic al re ac t io n is t o re plac e t he f ine grain silve r po sit ive image wit h die , and t he n
yo u ble ac h o ut t he slive r and are le f t wit h just t he die , so it ' s no t t e c hnic ally grainy , it ' s pe rc e pt io n o f what use d t o be grainy .
DH: O kay . T hank yo u f o r t hat t e c hnic al e xplanat io n. Is t his pro c e ss whic h yo u have de sc ribe d, is it pro prie t ary t o Ko dak?
HM: Ye s. T he y had a pro prie t ary….We ll no , at t he t ime t he y passe d a law whe re t he y had t o re linquish t he pro c e ssing o f Ko dac ro me , and o ne branc h o f Ko dak we nt o ut and o pe ne d ano t he r c o mpany , so it was no t
pro prie t ary .
DH: Did it , at any t ime during t his wo rk was t he mo t io n pic t ure c o pie d as a mo t io n pic t ure ?
HM: No . No t in o ur o pe rat io n.
DH: So yo u o nly made int e r ne gat ive s and c o lo r print s, is t hat c o rre c t ?
HM: Ye s.
DH: And t he siz e o f t he print s again?
HM: I' m pre t t y sure t he y we re f ive by se ve n, if t he y we re t he o ne s I made .
DH: Af t e r t he print s we re made , I assume t he y had t o dry . What happe ne d ne xt ? Who we re t he y give n t o ?
HM: Ah, no w t he mo unt ing o n t he brie f ing bo ards and t he pho t o int e rpre t at io n, so t o spe ak, I was no t invo lve d in. And I t hink I we nt ho me ( ha, ha) . But Smit h pro bably we nt t o ano t he r are a, it ' s no t e ve n a vault e d
are a, it ' s a f inishing ro o m upst airs.....
END P ART I
T his po st has be e n e dit e d by William Ke lly: Jan 31 2010, 08: 02 PM
+
J.
Raymo nd
Carro ...
Jan 31 2010, 08: 57 PM
Po st # 2
Supe r
Me mbe r
Gro up:
Me mbe rs
Po st s:
1793
Jo ine d:
10- Marc h
05
Me mbe r
No .: 2672
Q UO T E ( William Ke lly @ Jan 31 2010, 08: 57 PM)
DH: What . Do yo u re c all what ye ar it was t hat yo u re t urne d t o t he CIA and wo rke d f o r abo ut t e n ye ars, what ye ar it was, mo re o r le ss?
HM: No , I do n' t have an ac c urat e re c o lle c t io n.
Q UO T E
HM: I t hink it was unslit and I might have said t hat , and we might have slit it be f o re we use d it ,
but I t ho ught t he y we re t o ld t hat t he y didn' t want t o slit t he f ilm, and I do n' t , I do n' t t hink we slit it
I t hink o ne t hing is c e rt ain, we e it he r slit t he f ilm, o r e lse we didn' t slit t he f ilm. It was DEFINIT EL Y o ne o r t he o t he r .
+
William
Ke lly
Fe b 1 2010, 12: 09 AM
Po st # 3
Supe r
Me mbe r
Q UO T E ( J. Raymo nd Carro ll @ Jan 31 2010, 09: 57 PM)
Q UO T E ( William Ke lly @ Jan 31 2010, 08: 57 PM)
DH: What . Do yo u re c all what ye ar it was t hat yo u re t urne d t o t he CIA and wo rke d f o r abo ut t e n ye ars, what ye ar it was, mo re o r le ss?
HM: No , I do n' t have an ac c urat e re c o lle c t io n.
Gro up:
Me mbe rs
Po st s:
5008
Jo ine d:
20-O c t o be r
05
Me mbe r
No .:
3667
Q UO T E
HM: I t hink it was unslit and I might have said t hat , and we might have slit it be f o re we use d it ,
but I t ho ught t he y we re t o ld t hat t he y didn' t want t o slit t he f ilm, and I do n' t , I do n' t t hink we slit it
I t hink o ne t hing is c e rt ain, we e it he r slit t he f ilm, o r e lse we didn' t slit t he f ilm. It was DEFINIT EL Y o ne o r t he o t he r .
Abso lut ly . O ne way o r t he o t he r .
And yo u are o nly de aling wit h o ne visit o f t he Z - f ilm t o NPIC, as Dino Brugio ni also says he wo rke d o n t he Z - f ilm t hat we e ke nd in a c o mple t e ly dif f e re nt se ssio n t hat also made e nlarge me nt s o f t he z - f ilm f rame s f o r brie f ing bo ards t hat we re
use d t o brie f CIA dire c t o r Jo hn Mc Co ne , who af t e r t he brie f ing, inf o rme d RFK t hat t he re was e vide nc e o f a se c o nd sho o t e r , and t hus a c o nspirac y .
Why was t he "o riginal" Z - f ilm t ake n t o t he NPIC t wic e , f o r t he same pro je c t - making e nlarge me nt s o f t he individual f rame f o r brie f ing bo ards?
Ne it he r Ho me r Mc Maho n no r Dino Brugio ni, bo t h CIA e mplo ye e s o f t he NPIC are making any alle gat io ns abo ut t he f ilm be ing alt e re d at all, but me re ly de sc ribing t he f ilm t hat t he y had in t he ir po sse ssio n t hat we e ke nd.
BK
+
William
Ke lly
Fe b 1 2010, 12: 40 AM
Po st # 4
Supe r
Me mbe r
Gro up:
Me mbe rs
Po st s:
5008
Jo ine d:
20-O c t o be r
05
Me mbe r
No .:
3667
Mc Maho n int e rvie w Part II.
DH: Did yo u and Mr . Hunt e r st o p wo rk at abo ut t he same t ime ?
HM: He might have st aye d o n and he lpe d. T he re was ano t he r c hap who was pro bably invo lve d in t hat wo rk. And it was pro bably was do ne by t he o t he r c hap, and I' m sure Bill Smit h. And I t hink yo u me nt io ne d t hat Be n Hunt e r said he didn' t
re c all Bill Smit h as t he name o f t he age nt t hat bro ught t he f ilm in?
DH: He did no t inde pe nde nt ly re c all t hat name .
HM: I re me mbe r Snuf f y Smit h, he was a Se nat o r f ro m Te xas, and I t hink I aske d t he guy , be c ause I had me t him o ve rse as, and I aske d him if he was any re lat io n? ( ha ha) …. I kne w he had be e n in Te xas, whe re he go t t he f ilm. And I aske d him
and he said no .
DH: T hat ' s int e re st ing. Yo u just me nt io ne d ano t he r c hap who may have be e n invo lve d wit h t he brie f ing bo ards and analysis…, do yo u re c all t he ir name ?
HM: I c an' t re c all t he name . I do n' t re c all, and e ve n if I did I wo uldn' t t e ll yo u…be c ause he was yo ung…
DH: Le t me ask yo u a que st io n abo ut name s. Do yo u re c all a pe rso n name d Sands? S- A- N- D- S?
HM: No . No re c o lle c t io n o f t hat name .
DH: If I wo uld c all t his pe rso n Capt ain Sands, wo uld t hat he lp anyway?
HM: O kay . We ll, we had an int e rme diat e , a naval o f f ic e r . T he y wo uld have had t o have so me o ne bring him in be c ause t he y wo uldn' t have had c le aranc e . To ge t be hind t he barrie r was pre t t y hard t o do wit ho ut pre side nt ial o r abo ve To p
Se c re t c le aranc e ( ha ha) . I had a CIA badge and t hat wo uld ge t me past t he guards, and t o ge t be hind t he barrie r I had ano t he r spe c ial badge and t hat had t o be pic ke d up and t urne d in whe n I we nt in and t he n we we re in a vault e d are a t hat
had c rypt o c o de yo u had t o run t o ge t in t he do o r . So it was virt ually no t pe ne t rat e able . And af t e r yo u go t in t he do o r yo u had t o have a pro c e dure t o disarm t he vault e d are a o r se c urit y wo uld be o n yo u…
DH: Ext e nsive se c urit y….Do yo u re me mbe r a Capt ain Sands was o n t he st af f at NPIC?
HM: Eve n if I kne w I c o uldn' t t e ll yo u. It was a ge o - milit ary o pe rat io n.
DH: Be n Hunt e r re c alle d t hat a Capt ain Sands who bro ught in t he f ilm. Subse que nt ly he said t he re might have be e n a Se c re t Se rvic e Age nt , but he re me mbe re d a Capt ain Sands.
HM: Mo st o f t he ge o - milit ary who we re t he re we re unde rc o ve r , and I c an' t me nt io n t he m.
DH: O kay . Did yo u c re at e o r do yo u re c all anyo ne t aking any no t e s during yo ur wo rk?
HM: I t hink Hunt e r and I did t he o nly re c o rds o f t he wo rk, and I t hink t he re was o n e it he r a ye llo w….ye llo w…..( ha ha)
DH: Yo u just put yo ur hand o n a ye llo w le gal pad.
HM: Ye s…it was a le gal t ype pad. Unle ss it was re c o rde d o n;
, we made o ur marks o n so me o f t he …t o ke e p, but I did no t put any c lassif ic at io n o r anyt hing o f t hat nat ure , I didn' t put any c lassif ic at io n o r c o nt ro l, o n any o f t he do c ume nt s. No rmally t hat is re quire d be f o re it c o uld le ave t he vault , it has
t o be c o nt ro lle d wit h a To p Se c re t Co ve r she e t , but I did no t do t hat . No w af t e r t he brie f ing bo ard is made f ro m t he mat e rial, and t hat c lassif ic at io n pre c e de s, t hat wo uld have also had c lassif ic at io ns. We made brie f ing bo ards,
Te le pro mpt e rs and graphs f o r disse minat io n t o t he int e llige nc e c o mmunit y .
DH: Fo r o t he r t ype s o f wo rk, but f o r t his jo b yo u may have made no t e s o n a ye llo w le gal pad?
HM: No w I' m sure t his did no t go t o t he int e llige nc e c o mmunit y , it was no t part o f t he CIA. It was no t ….T his was a Ne e d To Kno w basis and it was use d by who e ve r bro ught it in, ( ha ha) e it he r f o r t he Warre n Co mmissio n o r t o brie f so me bo dy
e lse . It wasn' t f o r hist o ry , ….I t hink it was… I do n' t kno w what it was f o r…
DH: Be f o re we mo ve alo ng and be f o re I sho w yo u t he no t e s t hat t he Arc hive s have , le t me re visit wit h yo u, what e xac t ly Mr . Smit h said abo ut se c re c y o r no n- disc lo sure re garding t his e ve nt ? Co uld yo u t e ll me t hat st o ry again?
HM: I kno w t hat my imme diat e supe rviso r was no t allo we d in t he vault , t hat it was so se nsit ive , and he had all t he t ic ke t s, and he was no t allo we d in t he ro o m. It was st ric t ly o n a ne e d t o kno w, do t he jo b and ge t it o ut , and no o ne ne e ds t o
kno w abo ut it , t he re was no re c o rds….
JG: Whe n yo u say he had all t he t ic ke t s, yo u me an he had had c le aranc e s?
HM: He had all t he c le aranc e s I had, but was no t allo we d, it was no t t he CIA o r , I had all t he c le aranc e s – t he At o mic Ene rgy , t he Nat io nal Se c urit y Age nc y , and it was no t unde r any o f t he se .
JG: Was t he re any o t he r c o mpart me nt , o r a name ?
HM: T he re was no c o de name o n it t hat I kno w o f and if t he re was I c o uldn' t t e ll yo u. ( ha, ha)
DH: Did Mr . Smit h t e ll yo u it was c lassif ie d at a c e rt ain le ve l?
HM: Ye s, he said it was de f iant ly o n a Ne e d t o Kno w Basis….and he didn' t give me anyt hing o t he r t han I was swo rn t o se c re c y . I do n' t kno w if I signe d a do c ume nt , I do n' t re c all, but I kno w it c o uldn' t be divulge d.
DH: Did it have a le ve l o f c lassif ic at io n, like Co nf ide nt ial o r Se c re t ?
HM: No , it did no t have …He said it was Abo ve To p Se c re t , and t hat me ant it had t o have a c o de name . No w I do n' t kno w what t urne d up o n t he brie f ing bo ards, I ne ve r saw t he m.
DH: Be f o re we e xamine t he no t e s t hat t he Arc hive s has, Je re my did yo u want t o ask a f o llo w up que st io n?
Je re my Gunn: Ye s, I' d like t o go bac k t o so me t hing yo u said e arlie r in t he int e rvie w whe re yo u said, "Whe n I re c all…he t o o k t hre e hit s, po ssibly f o ur , " and it wasn' t c le ar t o me if he was, we re yo u we re t alking abo ut Ke nne dy o r Co nnally . Did
yo u re ac h a c o nc lusio n as t o t he numbe r o f hit s o n Pre side nt Ke nne dy?
HM: My gue ss, I t ho ught six o r e ight , but t he c o nse nsus was t wo o r t hre e . T he y said it hit Ke nne dy and hit Co nnally , ric o c he t …
DH: Did t he y say t hat t hat night ?
HM: We we re just t rying t o ge t we re all t he sho t s o f ac t io n….and I kne w t hat lat e r t he y f o und so me so und audio t ape s and c o uld ge t vo ic e print s o n so und and c o uld t e ll ho w many se parat e we apo ns and dire c t io ns it sho we d up o n o ne o f
t he po lic e t ape s t hat was re c o rde d, o ne o f t he mo t o rc yc le s had it o n…..I do n' t kno w.
JG: Ho w is yo u and t he o t he rs, ho w did yo u c o me t o c o nc lude t he numbe r o f hit s? Was it f ro m t he f ilm while it was ro lling, o r was t hat a f rame by f rame analysis?
HM: We ll t he pe rso n who bro ught t he f ilm in, he had alre ady saw it , he had pre - kno wle dge be f o re we had it , so maybe we we re swaye d t o go alo ng wit h his f irst impre ssio n. I do n' t kno w.
JG: Did he say anyt hing? Co uld yo u so rt o f re c o unt what happe ne d, was it Bill Smit h, what Bill Smit h said what he alre ady kne w abo ut t he f ilm and what it sho we d.?
HM: He vie we d it af t e r it was pro c e sse d at East man Ko dak –
TAPE RUNS O UT 51: 08
DH: We ' re bac k o n re c o rd. Turne d t he t ape o ve r .
HM: I was just se le c t e d t o do t he jo b t hat I c o ve re d, and I do n' t t hink I sho uld t alk abo ut what happe ne d be f o re , be c ause it is he arsay kno wle dge t hat I have no re al kno wle dge o f it .
JG: …Just so it ' s c le ar…..T hat ' s what we ' re asking abo ut . It ' s impo rt ant f o r us t o ge t as muc h inf o rmat io n as we c an abo ut t he pro c e ssing and analysis o f t he f ilm o f t he assassinat io n, and t he o t he r wo rk we ' re no t asking abo ut , but t his is
so me t hing we want t o ge t as muc h inf o rmat io n as we c an. If Bill Smit h t o ld yo u so me t hing abo ut t he f ilm, it ' s impo rt ant t o us, so if yo u c o uld yo u just t e ll us what he said happe ne d?
HM: O kay , t o t he be st o f my re c o lle c t io n he said, t hat he was c o nt ac t e d by his o rganiz at io n abo ut a f ilm, a pe rso n c alle d up and t he y said t he y had it , and t he y f e lt t he y didn' t want t o give t o anyo ne , se ll it , o r make a pro f it o n it , and t he y
want e d it t o go t o t he Se c re t Se rvic e , and le t t he m have t hat , and he gave t he o riginal f ilm - t he pe rso n who did t he pho t o graphy , t o t he Se c re t Se rvic e , and I do n' t t hink anyo ne e lse kne w abo ut it unt il muc h lat e r .
JG: Le t me t ry a que st io n….Yo u are ac quaint e d wit h t he Z aprude r f ilm, t he f ilm c alle d t he Z aprude r f ilm? Is t his t he Z aprude r f ilm o r a dif f e re nt f ilm?
HM: I have n' t se e n it f o r 35 ye ars. Ah, I ne ve r he ard Dalc rude r at t he t ime . I he ard t hat muc h, muc h lat e r .
DH: Do yo u me an Dalc rude r? Did yo u say Dalc rude r?
HM: He did. T he man who t o o k t he mo st f amo us f ilm was Abraham Z aprude r .
HM: Abraham Z aprude r . I ne ve r he ard t hat , o r if I did I do n' t re me mbe r it .
JG: Right no w, yo u' re no t c e rt ain if t he f ilm yo u wo rke d wit h was t he Z aprude r f ilm o r ano t he r f ilm?
HM: I was t o ld it was t he o nly c o ve rage t he y had. T hat was it . No o ne e lse pho t o graphe d it . T he y said it was t he o nly f ilm, and I do n' t kno w if it was o r if it was t he hist o ric f ilm.
JG: What did Mr . Smit h say had happe ne d t o t he f ilm prio r t o t he t ime whe n yo u go t it , re garding pro c e ssing?
HM: O kay . Be c ause o f e xpe dit e , and t he e xpe dit e part is t he y want e d t o f ind o ut what happe ne d, and t he y had f ilm t hat was ge ne ro usly t urne d in by a ve ry pat rio t ic pe rso n, who t o ld it was give n t o t he m be c ause it might he lp in t he
inve st igat io n. T his is what he was t o ld, what I was t o ld, and t hat it was o f t he ut mo st urge nc y , so he hand- c arrie d it and f le w t o Ro c he st e r , and go t it pro c e sse d at t he pro c e ssing divisio n t he re . And t he y we re made aware t hat he was c o ming,
and did it imme diat e ly f o r him, and I also t hink t he y made duplic at io ns o f t hat , whic h I was t o ld, and t he n he c ame bac k. Be c ause t he y t o ld him t he y c o uldn' t do what he want e d t o ge t do ne , and t hat NPIC c o uld do it , it f e ll o n o ur laps and we
did it .
JG: Whe n yo u say t he y c o uldn' t do what t he y want e d do ne , was t hat e nlarge me nt s o r was t he re so me o t he r?
HM: T he y didn' t have a labo rat o ry t hat c o uld do t he qualit y o f wo rk t hat he want e d. He want e d maximum sharpne ss, t he mo st se e - abilit y , and t hat ' s what we c o uld do and we we re way be yo nd t he st at e o f t he art and t he qualit y t hat was
t urne d o ut .
JG: Be f o re t he f ilm o f t he assassinat io n, was it yo ur unde rst anding t hat anyt hing mo re t hat c o uld be do ne be side s….?
HM: T he print s we re duplic at io ns o f t he o riginal f ilm.
DH: Was anyt hing e lse do ne t o t he f ilm?
HM: No , no t t o my kno wle dge .
DH: Was it yo ur unde rst anding t hat Mr . Smit h had c o me dire c t ly t o Washingt o n f ro m Ro c he st e r?
HM: Ye s, ye s, he go t o f f t he airplane at t he Nat io nal Airpo rt and c ame dire c t ly t o us, t o o ur building.
JG: Just so we are c le ar o n so me t hing. It was o ur unde rst anding t hat t he f ilm had be e n pro c e sse d by Ko dak. Whe n yo u said it was do ne in Ro c he st e r , was t hat an inf e re nc e t hat yo u dre w whe n t he y said it had be e n pro c e sse d by Ko dak o r
did t he y spe c if ic ally me nt io n Ro c he st e r?
HM: No w yo u' re ge t t ing int o c lassif ie d gro unds, t hat I c an' t answe r t hat que st io n. I kno w but I c an' t t alk abo ut it . T he re was ano t he r t o p se c re t lab t hat t he go ve rnme nt use d.
JG: If yo u are unc o mf o rt able t alking abo ut it , we c an st o p t hat he re and t hat wo uld be f ine , but t his is so me t hing t hat is impo rt ant f o r us t o do , and we c an go bac k t o t he age nc y and t alk t o t he m.
HM: Yo u c an do t hat bac k t hro ugh t he age nc y , and I kno w t hat hasn' t be e n do ne , ( ha ha) o r it is in t he public do main….
DH: I t hink t he re is a way t o re phrase t he que st io n wit ho ut yo u pe rc e iving a c lassif ie d int e nt – Did Mr . Smit h say t his was do ne at Ko dak o r did he say t his was de ve lo pe d at Ro c he st e r?
HM: O kay , again, I kno w whe re it was do ne , and I kno w who did it , and I' m no t go ing t o answe r .
DH: O kay , is t he re any c hanc e t hat whe re it was do ne c o uld t hat be in a Ko dak lab in Dallas?
HM: To my kno wle dge no . ( Pause ) Whe n yo u are in be d wit h t he o t he r ( ?) guy , we had t he ir t o p sc ie nt ist s and pho t o c he mist s and o pt ic al pe o ple wo rking in t he wo rld be yo nd. We had t he ir pe o ple - I sho uldn' t e ve n be t alking abo ut it , so rry ,
and t he re was a de f init e link o n t he nat io nal le ve l, whe re we had t he be st t he re was wo rking wit h us….
JG: Wo uld it be f air t o say t hat t he re was ano t he r f ac ilit y whe re it is yo ur unde rst anding t hat is whe re it was pro c e sse d….in t e rms o f t he name o f it
HM: Ye s.
JG: …..whe re it was yo ur unde rst anding it was pro c e sse d….In t e rms o f t he name o f it , we do n' t ne e d t hat ..
HM: Ye s…but I do n' t kno w if t he re was…..Yo u c o uldn' t say Nat io nal Pho t o Int e rpre t at io n Ce nt e r…..Yo u c o uld say NPIC, and t hat was se c re t . My c o ve r was t hat I wo rke d f o r t he CIA. I did no t wo rk f o r NPIC. T he milit ary t hat wo rke d t he re
wo rke d f o r t he milit ary , whe t he r it was Navy , Army , Air Fo rc e , what e ve r . T he y did no t wo rk f o r t he CIA.
DH: I' d like t o ask a f o llo w o n que st io n o n t he o pinio ns in t he ro o m o n t he disc ussio n o f t he hit s o n t he go ve rno r and t he pre side nt . Did Mr . Smit h t e ll yo u t he dire c t io ns t he sho t s c ame f ro m, o r did yo u pe o ple t ry t o de t e rmine t hat o n yo ur
o wn f ro m yo ur st udy?
HM: I may no t answe r t hat que st io n, le t me t ake a de t o ur . I' m an army brat . My dad was in t he f irst and se c o nd wo rld war . He was an o f f ic e r . Whe n I was f o ur ye ars o ld, I was t aught t o sho o t t ric ks. I was o ne o f t he gre at e st t ric k sho t art ist s.
Whe n I was sixt e e n I use d t o f ire at Pe rry , at Camp Pe rry , O hio , I was in t he NRA nat io nal c hampio nships. I' m t alking abo ut t arge t sho o t ing, no t t ric ks. I was what t he y c alle d a sight sho o t e r . I c o uld hit wit ho ut aiming. In o t he r wo rds I was a
t ric k sho t art ist . My dad wo uld ho ld a dime be t we e n his f inge rs and at f if t y f o o t I c o uld sho o t it o ut ( ha ha) wit h a lit t le t ric k gun. I' d pump t hre e balls, go lf balls and c o uld pump and hit t he t hre e o f t he m be f o re t he y hit t he gro und. I use d t o
have a rif le range in my base me nt and I wo uld sho o t e ve ry day and I be c ame ….it was like driving a c ar and af t e r yo u' ve do ne it f o r so lo ng yo u' re re f le xe s do it aut o mat ic ally . I c o uld sho o t wit ho ut lo o king. I didn' t c lo se o ne e ye and lo o k
t hro ugh a sight . I c o uld ac t ually sho o t and hit what I want e d t o hit . And I t hink I c o uld re ally se e t he bulle t s hit t ing t he o bje c t , and t he ir t raje c t o ry , I c o uld se e t he pat h o f t he bulle t , and I c o uld c o mpe nsat e f o r t hat if I misse d. It was a
f e e dbac k me c hanism. And I was ve ry go o d at what I did. In f ac t I' d make mo ne y in t he mo ne y mat c he s wit h t he large r rif le s, and I c o uld make f o ur o r f ive hundre d do llars in priz e mo ne y f iring, so I was a pro f e ssio nal sho o t e r , and ye s, I c o uld
lo o k at t he pic t ure s and t e ll yo u ho w many sho t s and po ssibly whe re t he y c ame f ro m up, do wn, right , le f t , and t his is int uit io n, and I c o uldn' t e xplain ho w I kno w t hat .
DH: What was it , ho w many sho t s we re t he re in t he assassinat io n? What is yo ur o pinio n?
HM: Abo ut e ight sho t s.
DH: Whe re did t he y c o me f ro m?
HM: Fro m t hre e dif f e re nt dire c t io ns, at le ast .
DH: Co uld yo u re me mbe r what t he dire c t io ns we re ?
HM: No , but if yo u have t he f ilm, yo u c an plo t ve c t o rs. Be c ause yo u c an go o ut , I' m a pho t o gramist as we ll. T he re ' s a way t o do it , be lie ve me .
DH: We re yo u aske d t o do t hat ?
HM: No .
DH: Did yo u say t hat yo u we re lo o king at t he f ilm wit h t he o t he rs….
HM: I wasn' t a pho t o gramac ist at t he t ime ….I lat e r wo rke d as ae rial pho t o graphe r and I did ae rial pho t o graphy f o r what do yo u c all it , f o r mapping, f irst , se c o nd and t hird o rde r surve ying. I did t hat f o r t e n o r t we lve ye ars….and….No w I was a
sho o t e r , and t hat is t he o nly re aso n I c an t e ll yo u what I saw and t ho ught I saw, and it wasn' t supe rio r visio n, it was just int uit io n. And no I did no t agre e wit h t he ir analysis at t he t ime I was do ing t he wo rk, and I didn' t have t o be c ause I wasn' t
a pho t o analysist , ( ha ha) I was no t paid t o do t hat .
DH: What did Mr . Smit h t hink?
HM: He t ho ught t he re we re t hre e sho t s.
JG: Fro m what dire c t io n.
HM: He he ld t o t he st andard c o nc e pt , t hat O swald f ire d o ut o f t he se c o nd st o ry…yo u have psyc ho lo gic al pro f ile s o f O swald…yo u have t o ns o f it , yo u o ught t o be able t o f igure o ut …( ha ha)
JG: Was t he re a se le c t io n made o f t he pho t o s – f rame s t o be e nlarge d?
HM: I didn' t make any se le c t io n. It was all se que nt ial, f ro m t hat gro up, e ve ryt hing was se que nt ial, no t hing was le f t o ut .
JG: Wo uld t hat be f ro m t he f irst t ime yo u c o uld ide nt if y t he re was a sho t ?
HM: Up t o what t he y t ho ught we re t he sho t s.
JG: Appro ximat e ly ho w many f rame s we re t he re be t we e n….
DH: …..We ll t he limo o c c upant s disappe ar be hind t he sign at abo ut f rame 190 and t he f at al he ad sho t ac c o rding t o t he Warre n Co mmissio n was 313, so t hat ' s quit e a f e w f rame s.
JG: So t he que st io n I have is ho w many f rame s we re ac t ually made ?
HM: We ll, maybe what t he y t ho ught we re t hre e sho t s, so maybe we we did be f o re and af t e r , I' m no t c le ar o n t hat . I t ho ught t he y we re se que nt ial, o ne f rame af t e r t he o t he r , whe n I did it , and again, I' m o nly t alking abo ut f o rt y sho t s t hat I was
invo lve d in making…
DH: 40 f rame s?
HM: 40 f rame s….so maybe it might have be e n t he y did it be f o re e ac h hit t he y t ho ught was de t e c t able , but I t ho ught t he re we re o t he rs…
DH: Did yo u e xpre ss yo ur o pinio n?
HM: Ye s, I e xpre sse d my o pinio n, ( ha ha) but yo u kno w, it was pre c o nc e ive d. T hat ' s t he way I t ho ught abo ut it . Yo u do n' t f ight c it y hall and I wasn' t t he re t o f ight t he m. I was t he re t o do t he wo rk.
JG: Whe n yo u say pre c o nc e ive d, yo u me an t he Se c re t Se rvic e man had pre c o nc e ive d no t io n?
HM: Ye s, and I didn' t c are . I had no ve st e d int e re st in what was happe ning.
JG: Se c re t Se rvic e age nt
HM: I didn' t c are …..
JG: Mo t io n pic t ure ?
HM: It was a pro je c t o r . And we had t he st ill f rame s t hat we c o uld put in and st o p it and run it bac kwards. It was a unique o ne , no t a c he ap o ne .
JG: Was it 16 mm pro je c t o r?
HM: I se e m t o re c all it as be ing a 16 mm, but t hat again, we had e ve ry kind o f pro je c t o r . It was in a brie f ing ro o m, we we nt up t o o ne o f o ur brie f ing ro o ms and t he y have all t hat e quipme nt up t he re .
JG: Whe n yo u say Do uble 8 f ilm I assume yo u re f e r t o a f ilm t hat had o ne se rie s o f image s o n o ne side and o ne se rie s o n t he o t he r?
HM: Ye s.
JG: If it was 16 mm yo u wo uld se e o ne go ing up and t he o t he r upside do wn, do have a re c o lle c t io n o f t hat happe ning.
HM: I t hink t hat happe ne d f ro m t he o riginal f ilm whe n I put it o n t he o pt ic al pre c isio n e nlarge r , be c ause , but we , yo u c o uld c e nt e r t he f ilm in t he liquid gat e , t he f rame , right in t he c e nt e r o f it , and yo u do n' t se e it .
JG: I assume t hat whe n yo u made t he ne gat ive yo u wo uld f o c us o n t he single f rame s o f t he assassinat io n; do yo u have any re c o lle c t io n no w if t he re was anyt hing in t he o t he r part , t hat wasn' t t he assassinat io n part ?
HM: …..I c an' t re ally answe r t hat . Mo st o f my re f le c t io ns are what I have re c alle d and re me mbe re d af t e r t he f ac t . In o t he r wo rds, I did it o nc e , and t he n I re c alle d it , and re me mbe re d it .......
T his po st has be e n e dit e d by William Ke lly: Fe b 1 2010, 01: 00 AM
+
J.
Raymo nd
Carro ...
Fe b 1 2010, 01: 36 AM
Po st # 5
Supe r
Me mbe r
Gro up:
Me mbe rs
Po st s:
1793
Jo ine d:
10- Marc h
05
Me mbe r
No .: 2672
Q UO T E
HM: We we re just t rying t o ge t we re all t he sho t s o f ac t io n….and I kne w t hat lat e r t he y f o und so me so und audio t ape s and c o uld ge t vo ic e print s o n so und and c o uld t e ll ho w many se parat e we apo ns and dire c t io ns it sho we d up o n o ne o f
t he po lic e t ape s t hat was re c o rde d, o ne o f t he mo t o rc yc le s had it o n…..I do n’ t kno w.
Wo w! T His guy' s re ally up t o dat e . He re me mbe rs so me t hing abo ut t he HSCA.
Q UO T E
I do n’ t t hink I sho uld t alk abo ut what happe ne d be f o re , be c ause it is he arsay kno wle dge t hat I have no re al kno wle dge o f it .
HM: O kay , again, I kno w whe re it was do ne , and I kno w who did it , and I’ m no t go ing t o answe r .
HM: Ye s…but I do n’ t kno w if t he re was…..
T RANSLAT IO N: I DO N"T kno w whe re it was, and I DO kno w whe re it was, but I wo uldn' t t e ll yo u e it he r way . Anyway , IT ' S ALL HEARSA Y .
Q UO T E
HM: ye s, I c o uld lo o k at t he pic t ure s and t e ll yo u ho w many sho t s and po ssibly whe re t he y c ame f ro m up, do wn, right , le f t , and t his is int uit io n, and I c o uldn’ t e xplain ho w I kno w t hat .
HM: Abo ut e ight sho t s.
T hanks Ho me r . ANO T HER myst e ry so lve d.
Q UO T E
HM: I se e m t o re c all it as be ing a 16 mm, but t hat again, we had e ve ry kind o f pro je c t o r .
HM: …..I c an’ t re ally answe r t hat . Mo st o f my re f le c t io ns are what I have re c alle d and re me mbe re d af t e r t he f ac t . In o t he r wo rds, I did it o nc e , and t he n I re c alle d it , and re me mbe re d it .......
Ah Me mo rie s.
But I am CERTAIN in my MEMO RY abo ut o ne t hing: Whe t he r it was 8 millime t e r o r 16 miilime t e r o r so me o t he r millime t e r e nt ire ly , it was de f init e ly A PRO JECT O R.
T his po st has be e n e dit e d by J. Raymo nd Carro ll: Fe b 1 2010, 01: 42 AM
+
William
Ke lly
Fe b 1 2010, 03: 36 AM
Po st # 6
Supe r
Me mbe r
Gro up:
Me mbe rs
Po st s:
5008
Jo ine d:
20-O c t o be r
05
Me mbe r
No .:
3667
Q UO T E ( J. Raymo nd Carro ll @ Fe b 1 2010, 02: 36 AM)
Q UO T E
HM: We we re just t rying t o ge t we re all t he sho t s o f ac t io n….and I kne w t hat lat e r t he y f o und so me so und audio t ape s and c o uld ge t vo ic e print s o n so und and c o uld t e ll ho w many se parat e we apo ns and dire c t io ns it sho we d up o n o ne o f
t he po lic e t ape s t hat was re c o rde d, o ne o f t he mo t o rc yc le s had it o n…..I do n' t kno w.
Wo w! T His guy' s re ally up t o dat e . He re me mbe rs so me t hing abo ut t he HSCA.
Q UO T E
I do n' t t hink I sho uld t alk abo ut what happe ne d be f o re , be c ause it is he arsay kno wle dge t hat I have no re al kno wle dge o f it .
HM: O kay , again, I kno w whe re it was do ne , and I kno w who did it , and I' m no t go ing t o answe r .
HM: Ye s…but I do n' t kno w if t he re was…..
T RANSLAT IO N: I DO N"T kno w whe re it was, and I DO kno w whe re it was, but I wo uldn' t t e ll yo u e it he r way . Anyway , IT ' S ALL HEARSA Y .
Q UO T E
HM: ye s, I c o uld lo o k at t he pic t ure s and t e ll yo u ho w many sho t s and po ssibly whe re t he y c ame f ro m up, do wn, right , le f t , and t his is int uit io n, and I c o uldn' t e xplain ho w I kno w t hat .
HM: Abo ut e ight sho t s.
T hanks Ho me r . ANO T HER myst e ry so lve d.
Q UO T E
HM: I se e m t o re c all it as be ing a 16 mm, but t hat again, we had e ve ry kind o f pro je c t o r .
HM: …..I c an' t re ally answe r t hat . Mo st o f my re f le c t io ns are what I have re c alle d and re me mbe re d af t e r t he f ac t . In o t he r wo rds, I did it o nc e , and t he n I re c alle d it , and re me mbe re d it .......
Ah Me mo rie s.
But I am CERTAIN in my MEMO RY abo ut o ne t hing: Whe t he r it was 8 millime t e r o r 16 miilime t e r o r so me o t he r millime t e r e nt ire ly , it was de f init e ly A PRO JECT O R.
I agre e wit h yo u 100 % And yo u have n' t e ve n go t t e n t he be st o f it , ye t .
It is my humble o pinio n, t hat Ho me r Mc Maho n was a ve ry re luc t ant wit ne ss, who wo uld ne ve r have e ve n be e n kno wn t o ARRB if it wasn' t f o r t he ir o nly public he aring o n t he Z - f ilm t hat was sho wn o n CSP AN and c aught t he at t e nt io n o f Be n
Hunt e r' s wif e . And af t e r Mc Maho n gave up t he f arm, he re aliz e d it and did e ve ryt hing he c o uld t o disc re dit himse lf .
Part III c o ming t o yo u so o n.
BK
+
J.
Raymo nd
Carro ...
Fe b 1 2010, 02: 17 PM
Po st # 7
Supe r
Me mbe r
Gro up:
Me mbe rs
Po st s:
1793
Jo ine d:
10- Marc h
05
Me mbe r
No .: 2672
Q UO T E ( William Ke lly @ Fe b 1 2010, 04: 36 AM)
And af t e r Mc Maho n gave up t he f arm, he re aliz e d it and did e ve ryt hing he c o uld t o disc re dit himse lf .
We ll he c e rt ainly suc c e e de d in disc re dit ing himse lf , Bill. His t e st imo ny he re is o ne big JO KE.
+
William
Ke lly
Fe b 1 2010, 03: 20 PM
Po st # 8
Supe r
Me mbe r
Gro up:
Me mbe rs
Po st s:
5008
Jo ine d:
20-O c t o be r
05
Me mbe r
No .:
3667
Q UO T E ( J. Raymo nd Carro ll @ Fe b 1 2010, 03: 17 PM)
Q UO T E ( William Ke lly @ Fe b 1 2010, 04: 36 AM)
And af t e r Mc Maho n gave up t he f arm, he re aliz e d it and did e ve ryt hing he c o uld t o disc re dit himse lf .
We ll he c e rt ainly suc c e e de d in disc re dit ing himse lf , Bill. His t e st imo ny he re is o ne big JO KE.
Eve ry wit ne ss c an be disc re dit e d, but I t hink he disc re dit e d himse lf int e nt io nally , no t kno wing what t he be ans we re t hat he spille d.
Ho w do yo u sque e z e t he go o d inf o rmat io n f ro m a JO KE?
Mc Maho n' s side kic k, Be n Hunt e r also pro vide s inf o rmat io n t hat yo u have n' t se e n ye t , right ?
O f c o urse , t he y re ally did wo rk f o r t he CIA at NPIC, and it has be e n inde pe nde nt ly ve rif ie d f ro m Sydne y Gre ybe al t hat 70- 90% o f t he st rat e gic int e llige nc e o f t hat t ime c ame o ut o f NPIC, whe re t he y also f igure d in t he inf o rmat io n o bt aine d
f ro m o t he r se c re t so urc e s - inc luding Pe nko vsky , so he go t t hat part right .
So , as a re luc t ant and disc re dit e d wit ne ss, e ve ryt hing he says must be inde pe nde nt ly ve rif ie d, and c an be .
It just so happe ns t hat he is o ne o f t he so urc e s o f t he handwrit t e n no t e s o n t he ye llo w le gal pad, ve rif if e d t hro ugh handwrit ing, and he did in f ac t make t he e nlarge d c o lo r print s f o r t he se c o nd se t o f brie f ing bo ards.
No w, did he use t he o riginal Z - f ilm as he says, and did it in f ac t c o me f ro m Ro c he st e r , t he o ne t hing he was po sit ive ly sure abo ut ?
T ho se who t hink Mc Maho n disc re dit e d o r a JO KE do n' t have t o go t he re .
BK
T his po st has be e n e dit e d by William Ke lly: Fe b 1 2010, 03: 22 PM
+
William
Ke lly
Fe b 1 2010, 03: 34 PM
Po st # 9
ARRB Int e rvie w wit h Ho me r Mc Maho n. Part III
Supe r
Me mbe r
Gro up:
Me mbe rs
Po st s:
5008
Jo ine d:
20-O c t o be r
05
Me mbe r
No .:
3667
HM: ......I do n' t kno w ho w t he mind wo rks, but I do kno w I am no t .... I am a re c o ve ring drug addic t and alc o ho lic . Do yo u kno w what a ....we t f rame is? We ll, yo u' re lo o king at o ne . I damn ne ar die d. And I' m no t a c o mpe t e nt wit ne ss be c ause I
do n' t have ac c urat e re c all. I do n' t have abso lut e re c all.
JG: Wit h re gards t o t he o t he r e ve nt s t hat yo u t alke d abo ut , ho w do yo u t hink t he ac c urac y is?
HM: I just t o ld yo u, I do n' t have a f ull de c k. I do n' t kno w ho w I am pre se nt ing anyt hing he re . T his is no t …at t he t ime I did it I was no t impaire d, but I lat e r be c ame impaire d. So whe t he r yo u are t alking t o a re liable wit ne ss o r no t , t hat ' s up f o r
yo u t o de c ide .
DH: Shall we mo ve o n t o t he no t e s? I' m go ing t o go o f f t he re c o rd t o ge t no t e s t hat t he Arc hive s.
DH: Bac k o n re c o rd. No t e s: Fro m Re c o rd Gro up 233 – 90A Do c . ID# 1993.07.22.08: 41: 07- 6200 ? T it le d Analysis o f t he Z aprude r Fil Dat e 5- 22- 1975
I' m no w go ing t o hand t he se no t e s t o Mr . Mc Maho n and t o le t him re ad t he m and t o se e if he ' s se e n t he m be f o re . Lo o k at t he m and t ake yo ur t ime .
01: 16: 00 - 01: 17: 09
HM: So me o f t he writ ing is mine . I do n' t kno w who se t his is.
DH: And t he page yo u are no t sure abo ut is….
HM: T his is my writ ing.
DH: What Maho n has ide nt if ie d as his writ ing is o n t he bac kside o f t he half page : whic h re ads: "….pro c e ss….a t o t al o f se ve n ho urs." T hat ' s in pe nc il. Be lo w t hat is so me lo ng divisio ns, and …..T hat ' s yo ur writ ing?
HM: Ye s.
DH: What is t his t he lo ng divisio ns and addit io ns? Do yo u re c all what t he y are ?
HM: It ' s my writ ing; I t hink it is e it he r mine o r Be n' s. Do yo u have Be n' s handwrit ing?
DH: I c an sho w yo u I have o ne se c t io n o f t he no t e s t hat he re c alle d was his handwrit ing, what he said…
HM: T his lo o ks like Be n' s writ ing….
DH: O t he r side , whic h is a de sc ript io n o f brie f ing bo ard pane ls…. Pane l o ne , t wo , t hre e , f o ur…print numbe r f rame numbe r….Be n ide nt if ie d…T he se are t he o nly t wo t hat he t ho ught was his handwrit ing. Unde r Pane l O ne .
HM: T his is….t his lo o ks like Be n' s writ ing, and t his lo o ks like mine .
DH: T his is at t he bo t t o m o f t he page whe re it t alks abo ut t ime be t we e n sho t s.
HM: I' m no t sure abo ut t his. T his lo o ks like mine and t his lo o ks like ….
DH: Just f o r t he re c o rds, t he de sc ript io ns o f t he t ime it t o o k t o make int e rne gat ive s and print s is in Mr . Mc Maho n' s writ ing.
HM: T his is no t my writ ing.
DH: O kay , Mr . Mc Maho n is no w lo o king at , ….what he says t hat whe re it says f if t e e n f rame s pe r se c o nd, he says t hat is no t his writ ing.
HM: T his is no t my writ ing. T hat might be Be n' s.
DH: …..Page o n t he right hand c o rne r re ads: "Q ue st io ns…..f irst and se c o nd sho t ?"
HM: O kay , we didn' t have ……we we re t o ld what t he y t ho ught t he y we re , and t his is what we c o nc lude d t he y we re , and t his is what we se t t he pho t o graphy t o ….t hat ' s t he be st I c an do ….
JG: Do yo u re me mbe r whe n yo u pre pare d t he no t e s t hat yo u just lo o ke d at ?
HM: Ye a, we we re in t he brie f ing ro o m, in Building 213 in t he Navy Yard, and it was, we we re vie wing it t he re be c ause o f t he e quipme nt .
JG: T he se we re made o n t he day t hat yo u pro c e sse d…?
HM: Ye s, t he se are f airly ac c urat e t ime s…. 16 f rame s pe r se c o nd, I do n' t kno w if I agre e o n t he 18 se c o nds….T his might be a f urt he r analysis…..
JG: Do yo u kno w if t he o t he r pe rso n made t he no t e s at t he same t ime …
HM: T he y c o nf o rme d, my be st re c o lle c t io n, t o what we wro t e …..I do n' t kno w why I re me mbe r t hat .
DH: Yo u me an t he ye llo w le gal siz e pape r?
HM: Ye a.
DH: O kay , we wo uld like t o sho w yo u f o ur brie f ing bo ard pane ls t hat survive d t o se e if yo u re c o gniz e t he print s.
O f f T he Re c o rd While we f igure o ut ho w t o mo ve t he brie f ing bo ard in.
Bac k o n Re c o rd:
01: 23: 51
DH: T he dat e o n t his Rif f Do c ume nt is 90 – A RIF# 1993.07.21 154804.930600
Brie f ing Pane ls c o nt aining Z aprude r Pho t o s. Dat e d 1 1, 23, 1963. I am handing Mr . Mc Maho n Pane l o ne o f f o ur f o r his e xaminat io n.
HM: T he y' ve be e n t rimme d o ut but t hat ' s what we sho t .
DH: Yo u say it ' s be e n t rimme d?
HM: Ye s.
DH: But yo u re c o gniz e it as print s yo u have made ?
HM: Ye s. To t he be st o f my kno wle dge .
DH: We will ask yo u t he same abo ut e ac h pane l. T his is labe le d Pane l 2.
HM: Ye s.
DH: Yo u also re c o gniz e t he se as pho t o s yo u made . If at any t ime yo u se e so me t hing t hat is no t print s yo u made , ple ase say so . T his is Pane l 3.
HM: T he re ' s so me missing.
DH: T his is t he f inal pane l, Pane l 4.
HM: Ye s. I did all t ho se .
DH: No w t hat yo u' ve se e n all f o ur pane ls do yo u f e e l t his is all yo u made ?
HM: No , t he re we re mo re .
DH: T he no t e s say , 28, yo u said e arlie r t he re we re be t we e n 20 and 40.
HM: Yo u me nt io n t he y we nt be hind t he sign and c ame o ut again. I do n' t t hink we had all t hat se que nc e t he re ….And t he n t he re was t he FBI….no t t he FBI, t he bo dy guard, jumping o n t he bac k…..and o ne whe re his he ad f e ll o n he r lap
DH: Whe n yo u say his he ad yo u me an t he pre side nt ?
HM: T he n again t hat might have be e n no t use d.
DH: Pane l 4, has Se c re t Se rvic e Age nt Clint Hill o n t he re ar o f t he limo usine , t he o nly f rame t hat sho ws him.
HM: I t hink t he re might have be e n t wo age nt s no t he bac k, but t hat was af t e r t he barn do o r…was c lo se d at t hat po int …..
DH: Le t ' s lo o k at Pane l 1…….ro ad sign. Do e s t his se que nc e se e m like it re pre se nt s….?
HM: Ye s, but I t ho ught t he re was so me be f o re t he ro ad sign….maybe t he y de t e rmine d…..
DH: T his f irst f rame o n Pane l 1 – alt ho ugh it is no t labe le d o n t he pane l, t his is Labe le d 188. Do yo u re me mbe r if t he re we re any pane ls prio r t o 188?
HM: Ye s… whe re t he re was so me ac t io n o f so me so rt …
DH: I' d like t o c larif y f o r t he re c o rds, …...Did yo u se e t he ac t ual brie f ing bo ards t hat night ?
HM: No . I made t he pic t ure s, and I made t hre e e ac h, c o pie s o f e ac h…..
DH: Did yo u give t he m t o Mr . Smit h whe n yo u we re f inishe d?
HM: I re me mbe r Be n Hunt e r , and if it was…Smit h, o r who e ve r he was, and Be n Hunt e r , t o o k t he m upst airs t o make t he pane ls, and I didn' t st ay . I didn' t st ay t o se e t he f inishe d pro duc t . T he y had t o ….. and I t hink t he y had t o put
c lassif ic at io ns o n t he m, but I' m no t po sit ive t he y did.
DH: In re lat io n t o t he disc ussio ns t hat we re he ld t hat night be t we e n yo u, Mr . Smit h and Mr . Hunt e r , do yo u have any o pinio ns what t he se t riangle s are , o n t he f irst ro w, a blue t riangle …o n Pane l 2?
HM: I have n' t t he f aint e st ide a.
DH: O kay…. Do yo u re c all what happe ne d t o t he int e r- ne gat ive s?
HM: Ye s, all o f t he inf o rmat io n, inc luding t he sc raps, we re give n t o Bill Smit h. Eve ryt hing we had, sc raps, t e st she e t s, e ve ryt hing, no part s we re save d, we didn' t e ve n put it in t he c lassif ie d t rash, we gave t he t rash bac k.
DH: O kay . Is t he re anyt hing abo ut t his e ve nt t hat we have no t c o ve re d, t hat we sho uld c o ve r? Anyt hing t hat c o me s t o mind. T hat maybe t he re ' s so me t hing impo rt ant t hat we sho uld c o ve r t hat we have n' t aske d yo u abo ut ?
HM: Ye s. Yo u kno w what o pinio ns are ? O pinio ns, e ve rybo dy has an o pinio n, and ye s, I am ve ry o pinio nat e d, and I have a lo t o f o pinio ns, we all have o pinio ns. I kno w t his is f o r hist o ry , and I do n' t want t o int e rje c t anyt hing int o t his t hat
sho uldn' t be . I' m t rying t o be as o pe n and ho ne st , and t e lling what I re me mbe r , and I do n' t have go o d re me mbranc e . I' m almo st 70 ye ars o ld, I' m almo st 80 ye ars o ld, I' m almo st 90 ye ars o ld, I do n' t kno w, but t hat ' s t he be st o f my kno wle dge .
DH: Mic he lle is t he re anyt hing yo u want e d t o ask?
Mic he lle : I have o ne ve ry quic k que st io n. Who c alle d yo u in? We re yo u in t he building whe n yo u we re c o nt ac t e d?
HM: O kay , I t hink t hat I was, o kay whe n I' m c o nt ac t e d f ro m ho me , it ' s by a se c urit y o f f ic e r , a dut y o f f ic e r , be c ause t he y pro bably had t o o pe n t he lab, t urn o n t he e le c t ric it y , light s, and I kno w it was an all night af f air and t he re must be so me
se c urit y re c o rds, if t he y ke pt t ho se re c o rds. …..T he se had de t e riat e d rat he r badly . T he re ' s die , t re me ndo us die lo ss….yo u c o uld se e t he pic t ure s, t he f ac e s…muc h c le are r whe n I o riginally made t he m, so t he re ' s be e n a t re me ndo us lo ss o f
image and qualit y . Yo u' ve lo st abo ut 60% o f t he ….mage nt a re sin c o rps c o uple r , and ….pe rc e nt o f t he c o rps, and …, so t he re ' s a lo t o f inf o rmat io n t hat ' s no t t he re . T hat was a pro ble m wit h t he o ld re sin c o rps c o uple rs, t he y we re no t st able ,
buf f ing so lut io ns c o uldn' t st abiliz e t he die s f o r 35 ye ars.
DH: T hank yo u ve ry muc h f o r sharing yo ur re c o lle c t io ns and o pinio ns, and …..misunde rst o o d by pe o ple , inc luding myse lf . Yo u' ve be e n ve ry he lpf ul. T hank yo u ve ry muc h.
DH: We ' re bac k o n t he re c o rd and I just f o und ano t he r pho t o , bigge r t han t he o t he rs, …
Dat e d 1 1/23/6, an 8 by 10 c o lo r print o f Z - f ilm in be t we e n t he sign and t he he ad sho t , and o n bac k. Co lo r c ro wn marking 80 x. and I' d like Mr . Mc Maho n t o e xplain t his.
HM: T his…2x e nlarge me nt .do ne o n a De ve ir ( ?) , no t a pre c isio n e nlarge r , it sho ws, …it was made t o sho w what t he e nlarge me nt wo uld lo o k like . T he c o nt ac t print was o f a be t t e r qualit y . We had t o …do it o n a c he ape r It alian….e nlarge r , …
c o uld have go t t e n e qual qualit y in re so lut io n and sharpne ss, but we c o uldn' t f o r so me re aso n use t hat e quipme nt and we had t o use a le sse r , big e no ugh, go wit h t he sharpe r re so lut io n. To o muc h lo ss.
DH: To o muc h lo ss...
HM: …..f ro m t he o riginal 40x int e rne g, so we e le c t e d no t t o go t hat way .
DH: So t his was a t e st prio r t o t he print s f o r t he brie f ing bo ard?
HM: ….we re be t t e r qualit y…..
DH: I se e , but yo u didn' t ?
HM: Fo r so me re aso n it was do wn.
DH: Is t hat yo ur writ ing?
HM: Ye s.
DH: It lo o ks like a nine …do yo u re c o gniz e t hat numbe r ...?
TAPE ENDS.....
O ve r at 1: 41: 19
[siz e ="3"] [/siz e ]
T his po st has be e n e dit e d by William Ke lly: Fe b 1 2010, 03: 40 PM
+
J.
Raymo nd
Carro ...
Fe b 1 2010, 04: 21 PM
Po st # 10
Supe r
Me mbe r
Gro up:
Me mbe rs
Po st s:
1793
Jo ine d:
10- Marc h
05
Me mbe r
No .: 2672
Q UO T E
HM And I' m no t a c o mpe t e nt wit ne ss be c ause I do n' t have ac c urat e re c all.
I just t o ld yo u, I do n' t have a f ull de c k.
at t he t ime I did it I was no t impaire d, but I lat e r be c ame impaire d. So whe t he r yo u are t alking t o a re liable wit ne ss o r no t , t hat ' s up f o r yo u t o de c ide .
T hanks f o r t he He ads- up, Ho me r .
Q UO T E
I do n' t kno w why I re me mbe r t hat .
HM: I t hink t he re might have be e n t wo age nt s o n t he bac k, but t hat was af t e r t he barn do o r…was c lo se d at t hat po int …..
HM: I didn' t st ay t o se e t he f inishe d pro duc t .
HM: I have n' t t he f aint e st ide a.
Gre at , Ho me r . T hat is ve ry he lpf ul.
Q UO T E
HM: Ye s. Yo u kno w what o pinio ns are ? O pinio ns, e ve rybo dy has an o pinio n, and ye s, I am ve ry o pinio nat e d, and I have a lo t o f o pinio ns, we all have o pinio ns. I kno w t his is f o r hist o ry , and I do n' t want t o int e rje c t anyt hing int o t his t hat
sho uldn' t be . I' m t rying t o be as o pe n and ho ne st , and t e lling what I re me mbe r
Go o d man Ho me r , yo u t e ll ' e m.
Q UO T E
and I do n' t have go o d re me mbranc e . I' m almo st 70 ye ars o ld, I' m almo st 80 ye ars o ld, I' m almo st 90 ye ars o ld, I do n' t kno w, but t hat ' s t he be st o f my kno wle dge .
We ll le t ' s just say yo u' re ge t t ing up in ye ars, anyway .
Q UO T E
Do ug Ho rne : T hank yo u ve ry muc h f o r sharing yo ur re c o lle c t io ns and o pinio ns, and …..misunde rst o o d by pe o ple , inc luding myse lf . Yo u' ve be e n ve ry he lpf ul. T hank yo u ve ry muc h. [/siz e ] [/f o nt ]
Ye s, T hank yo u Ho me r , and t hank yo u Bill Ke lly , and t hank yo u Do ug Ho rne .
T his t hre ad is a barre l o f laughs.
+
William
Ke lly
Fe b 1 2010, 04: 21 PM
Po st # 1 1
Supe r
Me mbe r
Gro up:
Me mbe rs
Po st s:
5008
Jo ine d:
20-O c t o be r
05
Me mbe r
No .:
3667
[/siz e ]
Ho me r Mc Maho n: We had a c o mple t e wo rld be yo nd f ac ilit y ( ha, ha) , a mult i- billio n do llar pho t o lab, t hat t he Ke nne dy bro t he rs go t built f o r us in what , t hre e mo nt hs I t hink. T he y mo ve d o ut o f t he St e uart right in.
DH: Did t he NPIC re lo c at e af t e r t he Cuban Missile Crisis? Was it af t e r t he Cuban Missile Crisis in O c t o be r 1962 t hat yo u mo ve d?
HM: Whe n was Ke nne dy' s inaugurat io n t ake plac e ?
DH: January 1961
HM: It was sho rt ly af t e r t hat .
BK No t e s: He go t t hat wro ng. It was January 1963 t hat t he ne w NPIC o pe ne d at t he Navy Yard ac c o rding t o :
Fro m: T he Wiz ards o f Langle y: Inside t he CIA' s Dire c t o rat e ...
ht t p: //bo o ks.go o gle .c o m/bo o ks?
id=bM9r_83It o 8C&pg=P A162&lpg=P A162&dq=NPIC+5t h+%26+K+St .&so urc e =bl&o t s=qFGUG7gapl&sig=xRrkVvh5J6y3Vc vpvk8ALdZ bZ RM&hl=e n&e i=b8VGS_HwJMHBlAe ylY wN&sa=X&o i=bo o k_re sult &c t =re sult &re snum=1&ve d=0CAc Q 6AEwAA
- v=o ne page &q=&f =f alse : //ht t p: //bo o ks.go o gle .c o m/bo o ks?id=bM...e [/f o nt ] : //ht t p: //bo o ks.go o gle .c o m/bo o ks?id=bM...e [/siz e ] [/f o nt ]
In 1962, De f e nse Se c re t ary Ro be rt Mc Namara and me mbe rs o f t he Pre side nt ' s Fo re ign Int e llige nc e Adviso ry Bo ard visit e d and we re sho c ke d by t he c o ndit io ns at 5
t h
and K and advise d t he Pre side nt t hat NPIC ne e de d a ne w building. 3
Ke nne dy pro mpt ly t o ld DCI Jo hn Mc Co ne "t o ge t t he m o ut o f t hat st ruc t ure " and want e d t o kno w ho w so o n a mo ve c o uld be ac c o mplishe d. Mc Co ne re c o mme nde d t hat t he Naval Gun Fac t o ry appe are d t o be a re aso nable c ho ic e but t hat it
wo uld re quire a ye ar t o re f urbish it . Ke nne dy' s re ply was "All right , yo u do it ." 4
O n January 1, 1963, NPIC mo ve int o it s ne w ho me – Building 213 in t he Washingt o n Navy Yard, o f t e n re f e rre d t o as t he "Lundahl Hilt o n." It was, ac c o rding t o Mc Co ne , a "rags- t o - ric he s" sit uat io n. T he 200, 000 square f e e t o f f lo o r spac e me ant
t hat hundre ds o f mo re wo rke rs c o uld be adde d. T he building had large e le vat o rs, air c o ndit io ning, and go o d se c urit y . Mo st o f all, it was t he nat io nal c e nt e r t hat Lundahl had e nvisio ne d almo st t e n ye ars e arlie r . Mo st pe o ple in t he building
wo rke d f o r t he CIA - t he pe o ple who t ype d le t t e rs, dro ve c o urie r t ruc ks, ran t he c o mput e s and library se arc he s, and pro duc e d he graphic s. 5
But t he pho t o int e rpre t e rs c ame f ro m t he CIA, DIA, Army , Navy , Air Fo rc e , and o t he r o rganiz at io ns. An Air Fo rc e int e rpre t e r who st udie d pho t o s o f So vie t silo s might ride t he e le vat o r wit h a CIA int e rpre t e r who po re d o ve r pho t o s o f Chine se
nuc le ar f ac ilit ie s and a Navy re pre se nt at ive who se saf e was f ille d wit h t he lat e st pho t o graphy o f So vie t submarine s.
O f c o urse , t he e nviro nme nt at t he Washingt o n Navy Yard, it se lf lo c at e d in a rundo wn are a o f Washingt o n, was f ar f ro m luxurio us. And wo rking in a building who se windo ws, f o r se c urit y re aso ns, we re bric ke d up c e rt ainly c o uld be
c laust ro pho bic . But at le ast NPIC pe rso nne l we re lo c at e d in a large r f ac ilit y wit h so me ame nit ie s.
Eve n be f o re t he f irst KH- 9 missio n, NPIC o f f ic ials, inc luding dire c t o r Art hur Lundahl and se nio r manage r Dino Brugio ni, re aliz e d t hat …..
T his po st has be e n e dit e d by William Ke lly: Fe b 2 2010, 09: 58 PM
+
J.
Raymo nd
Carro ...
Fe b 1 2010, 04: 27 PM
Po st # 12
Supe r
Me mbe r
Gro up:
Me mbe rs
Po st s:
1793
Jo ine d:
10- Marc h
05
Me mbe r
No .: 2672
Q UO T E ( William Ke lly @ Fe b 1 2010, 05: 21 PM)
BK No t e s: He go t t hat wro ng. It was January 1963 t hat t he ne w NPIC o pe ne d at t he Navy Yard
He y Bill, give po o r Ho me r a bre ak. He was o nly o f f by a c o uple o f ye ars, and t hat ' s no t hing f o r a guy who ' s almo st 70 o r almo st 80 o r almo st 90 ye ars o ld.
+
Craig
Lamso n
Fe b 1 2010, 04: 39 PM
Po st # 13
Supe r
Me mbe r
Gro up:
Me mbe rs
Po st s:
3250
Jo ine d:
15-No ve mbe r
04
Me mbe r
No .: 1913
Q UO T E ( J. Raymo nd Carro ll @ Fe b 1 2010, 04: 27 PM)
Q UO T E ( William Ke lly @ Fe b 1 2010, 05: 21 PM)
BK No t e s: He go t t hat wro ng. It was January 1963 t hat t he ne w NPIC o pe ne d at t he Navy Yard
He y Bill, give po o r Ho me r a bre ak. He was o nly o f f by a c o uple o f ye ars, and t hat ' s no t hing f o r a guy who ' s almo st 70 o r almo st 80 o r almo st 90 ye ars o ld.
Go t t a laugh t o o . NPIC had EVERY T HING, mo ne y was no o bje c t ...e xc e pt f o r a f ilm pro c e sso r t o pro c e ss t he lo ng ro ll f ilm f ro m t he KH- 9' s. Maybe Ke lly and Ho rne c an e xplain t hat away .
+
Jo hn
Gille spie
Fe b 1 2010, 05: 26 PM
Po st # 14
Advanc e d
Me mbe r
Gro up:
Me mbe rs
Po st s:
428
Jo ine d:
4- July 05
Fro m:
Bo st o n,
MA
Me mbe r
No .: 3160
Q UO T E ( J. Raymo nd Carro ll @ Jan 31 2010, 08: 57 PM)
Q UO T E ( William Ke lly @ Jan 31 2010, 08: 57 PM)
DH: What . Do yo u re c all what ye ar it was t hat yo u re t urne d t o t he CIA and wo rke d f o r abo ut t e n ye ars, what ye ar it was, mo re o r le ss?
HM: No , I do n' t have an ac c urat e re c o lle c t io n.
Q UO T E
HM: I t hink it was unslit and I might have said t hat , and we might have slit it be f o re we use d it ,
but I t ho ught t he y we re t o ld t hat t he y didn' t want t o slit t he f ilm, and I do n' t , I do n' t t hink we slit it
I t hink o ne t hing is c e rt ain, we e it he r slit t he f ilm, o r e lse we didn' t slit t he f ilm. It was DEFINIT EL Y o ne o r t he o t he r .
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -( "Is yo u is o r is yo u ain' t my baby")
I re ad so me whe re t hat it was ge ne rally c o nc e de d t hat t he y didn' t give a slit .
JG
+
William Ke lly
Fe b 2 2010, 01: 53 AM
Po st # 15
Supe r Me mbe r
Gro up: Me mbe rs
Po st s: 5008
Jo ine d: 20-O c t o be r 05
Me mbe r No .: 3667
Q UO T E ( Craig Lamso n @ Fe b 1 2010, 05: 39 PM)
Q UO T E ( J. Raymo nd Carro ll @ Fe b 1 2010, 04: 27 PM)
Q UO T E ( William Ke lly @ Fe b 1 2010, 05: 21 PM)
BK No t e s: He go t t hat wro ng. It was January 1963 t hat t he ne w NPIC o pe ne d at t he Navy Yard
He y Bill, give po o r Ho me r a bre ak. He was o nly o f f by a c o uple o f ye ars, and t hat ' s no t hing f o r a guy who ' s almo st 70 o r almo st 80 o r almo st 90 ye ars o ld.
Go t t a laugh t o o . NPIC had EVERY T HING, mo ne y was no o bje c t ...e xc e pt f o r a f ilm pro c e sso r t o pro c e ss t he lo ng ro ll f ilm f ro m t he KH- 9' s. Maybe Ke lly and Ho rne c an e xplain t hat away .
It ' s no t my int e nt io n t o e xplain anyt hing away .
T his is t he CIA' s guy , no t mine .
And I unde rst and ho we ve r o ld he is, he ' s st ill alive , so he c an be c alle d bac k t o a be que st io ne d pro pe rly be f o re a Co nre ssio nal O ve rsight He aring, if t he y e ve r ho ld any .
BK
+
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