TESTIMONY OF J. HERBERT SAWYER VOLUME VI

The testimony of J. Herbert Sawyer was taken at 3:45 p.m., on April 8, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BELIN. Would you stand and raise your right hand.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. SAWYER. I do.

Mr. BELIN. What As your occupation?

Mr. SAWYER. Inspector of Police.

Mr. BELIN. Of what Police Department?

Mr. SAWYER. Dallas Police Department.

Mr. BELIN. You live here in Dallas?

Mr. SAWYER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Inspector, how long have you been with the Police Department?

Mr. SAWYER. 23 years.

Mr. BELIN. That would be then you came to the Police Department around 1941 or so?

Mr. SAWYER. 1941, is right.

Mr. BELIN. You have been with them ever since 1941?

Mr. SAWYER. Except for a brief hitch in the Service during the war.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do in the Service?

Mr. SAWYER. I was a yeoman in the Navy.

Mr. BELIN. Honorable discharge?

Mr. SAWYER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Prior to going into the Service, what did you do?

Mr. SAWYER. Policeman.

Mr. BELIN. Before you went into the Service?

Mr. SAWYER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did you go to school here in Dallas?

Mr. SAWYER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Graduated from high school?

Mr. SAWYER. Yes. I didn't graduate. I lacked half a year.

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Mr. BELIN. Then you got out and you went in--did you go right on the police force then?

Mr. SAWYER. No.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do?

Mr. SAWYER. I worked as credit manager in a jewelry company. This was immediately prior to coming to the police department.

Before that, I was a doorman at the Mural Room of the Baker Hotel.

Mr. BELIN. When you first got out of high school, what did you do?

Mr. SAWYER. I went out to California and went to work as a clerk in a grocery store.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do after that?

Mr. SAWYER. Came back to Dallas and went to Business College, and then I went to work as a doorman at the Mural Room of the Baker Hotel. And then from there I went to the jewelry, and later became credit manager.

Mr. BELIN. And then after that?

Mr. SAWYER Then to the Police Department.

Mr. BELIN. You have been with the Police Department ever since except for this time in the Navy?

Mr. SAWYER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. How old are you?

Mr. SAWYER. 47.

Mr. BELIN. You are married ?

Mr. SAWYER Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Inspector, were you on duty on November 22, 1963?

Mr. SAWYER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. By the way, were you an Inspector at that time?

Mr. SAWYER. I was.

Mr. BELIN. Where were you stationed with reference to the motorcade? Just what were your duties?

Mr. SAWYER. I had charge of the crowd detail on Main Street from Akard to Harwood.

Mr. BELIN. After the motorcade passed, what did you do?

Mr. SAWYER. I headed west on Main Street.

Mr. BELIN. Did you immediately get in your car after the motorcade passed?

Mr. SAWYER. Well, not immediately, because the crowd was real thick and completely surrounded the car, but I did as soon as it was feasible to get back in the car.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember where your car was parked?

Mr. SAWYER. Yes. It was parked on Ervay Street, at the intersection of Ervay and Main, but it was, well, it was on the north side of Main Street on Ervay. It runs parallel to Main Street.

Mr. BELIN. All right, you got in your car shortly after the motorcade passed then?

Mr. SAWYER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. SAWYER. Well, I headed west, or tried to. I had to wait until the crowd cleared out, and as soon as the crowd cleared enough, I headed west on Main Street.

Mr. BELIN. Any particular reason why you headed west on Main Street?

Mr. SAWYER. Because that was the way the car was pointed at the time I got in.

Mr. BELIN. All right, then what did you do as you went west on Main Street?

Mr. SAWYER. I just went real slow down the street because of people crossing, and at the time, the radio broadcast came in about a lot of activity down at the lower end around Houston and Elm Street.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what radio broadcast this is? Who broadcast it?

Mr. SAWYER. I heard Sheriff Decker come on the radio and tell the dispatcher to get all of his men over to, and I thought he said Texas School Book Depository, but at least that was the overall gist of the conversation. That

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is what I gathered. He may not have said Texas School Book Depository, but the Texas School Book Depository was mentioned in the broadcasts that were made at that time.

Mr. BELIN. Was this on Channel 1 or Channel 2 if you remember?

Mr. SAWYER. Channel 2, I am sure.

Mr. BELIN. Did Sheriff Decker have any particular call number at all, or not, in your police number system?

Mr. SAWYER. No. I was wondering why he come on our radio, but then I think that he was with Chief Curry and probably using that radio.

Mr. BELIN. All right, in any event, a call was made from Chief Curry's car?

Mr. . SAWYER. Well, this I don't know either. I don't know what car it was made from, but I think it was Sheriff Decker talking. I could recognize his voice, yes.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do then?

Mr. SAWYER. Then I went on down to the Texas Book Depository.

Mr. BELIN. Where did you park your car?

Mr. SAWYER. In front of the Texas School Book Depository.

Mr. BELIN. In front of the main entrance there?

Mr. SAWYER. In front of the main entrance.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do then?

Mr. SAWYER. Immediately went into---well, talked to some of the officers around there who told me the story that they had thought some shots had come from one of the floors in the building, and I think the fifth floor was mentioned, but nobody seemed to know who the shots were directed at or what had actually happened, except there had been a shooting there at the time the President's motorcade had gone by.

And I went with a couple of officers and a man who I believed worked in the building. The elevator was just to the right of the main entrance, and we went to the top floor, which was pointed out to me by this other man as being the floor that we were talking about. We had talked about the fifth floor. And we went back to the storage area and looked around and didn't see anything.

Mr. BELIN. Now you took an elevator up, is that correct?

Mr. SAWYER. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. The route that you took to the elevator, you went to the front door?

Mr. SAWYER. Right.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. SAWYER. We got into the elevator. We run into this man.

Mr. BELIN. Well, when you say you got into the elevator, where was the elevator as you walked in the front door?

Mr. SAWYER. It was to the right.

Mr. BELIN. To the right?

Mr. SAWYER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Was it a freight elevator or a passenger elevator?

Mr. SAWYER. The best of my recollection, it was a passenger elevator.

Mr. BELIN. Did you push for the top button in that elevator?

Mr. SAWYER. Well, I don't know who pushed it, but we went up to the top floor.

Mr. BELIN. You went up to the top floor that the elevator would go to?

Mr. SAWYER. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. You got off, and were there officers there?

Mr. SAWYER. There was one or two other officers with me.

Mr. BELIN. Now when you got off, you say you went into the back there into a warehouse area?

Mr. SAWYER. Storage area; what appeared to be a storage area.

Mr. BELIN. Did you go into any place other than a warehouse or storage area?

Mr. SAWYER. No.

Mr. BELIN. Was there anything other than a warehouse or storage area there?

Mr. SAWYER. Well, to one side I could see an office over there with people in it. Some women that apparently were office workers.

Mr. BELIN. Now Inspector, what did you do then?

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Mr. SAWYER. Well, I didn't see anything that was out of the ordinary, so I immediately came back downstairs to check the security on the building.

Mr. BELIN. When you say check the security on the building, what do you mean by that?

Mr. SAWYER. Well, to be sure it was covered off properly, and then posted two men on the front entrance with instructions not to let anyone in or out.

Mr. BELIN. What about the rear entrance?

Mr. BELIN. When was the order given to cover the front entrance of the building?

Mr. SAWYER. Well, they had it covered when I got there. There were officers all around the front. The only thing I don't think had been done by the time I got there, was the instructions not to let anybody in or out.

Mr. BELIN. All right, now, did you give the instructions not to let anyone in or out?

Mr. SAWYER I did.

Mr. BELIN. Did you give those instructions before or after you came down from the fourth floor or top floor?

Mr. SAWYER. After I got down.

Mr. BELIN. So your procedure, if I understand it, was this. You were driving on Main Street when you heard Sheriff Decker on the radio?

Mr. SAWYER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Inspector, to try and reconstruct the time of sealing off the building, I believe you said that before you got to the building or at about the time you got to the building, you thought that you heard something about the Texas School Book Depository over the radio?

Mr. SAWYER. Right.

Mr. BELIN. At least some time before you left your car, is that correct?

Mr. SAWYER. Yes; it would have to be, in order to hear it.

Mr. BELIN. Now, I have with me the transcript of the radio log here of November 22, and I notice that, according to the log, at 12:30, and you have examined it, there appears there is a statement by Chief Curry, and then something by Sheriff Decker concerning, well, we'd better call this Sawyer's Deposition Exhibit A, which is a transcript of the radio log, and it reads right now--we will try and restaple it later on--but right now, Page 2 and 3 are reversed insofar as the order is concerned.

You see at 12:28 p.m., on this exhibit Curry calls in that they are near the triple underpass, and then at 12:30 p.m., it says, "Station Break," is that right?

Mr. SAWYER. Yes, sir.

Mr. SAWYER. Right.

Mr. BELIN. Then according to the transcript, the statement is made you might just read it here in front of you: "Go to the hospital, officers, Parkland Hospital, have them stand by. Get men on top of the underpass, see what happened up there, go up to the overpass. Have Parkland stand by." You see these words here, Inspector Sawyer?

Mr. SAWYER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Then on a continuation, "Dallas-l," which is marked in by someone as Sheriff Decker says: "I'm sure it's going to take some time to get your men in there. Put every one of my men there." Then there is a call back to Curry from 531, which is your home station, is that correct?

Mr. SAWYER. That's right. I really didn't quite understand all of it.

Mr. BELIN. Then Curry is quoted as saying: "Notify Station 5 to move all men available out of my department back into the railroad yard and try to determine what happened and hold everything secure until homicide and other investigators can get in there."

Mr. SAWYER. That is Decker speaking there.

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Mr. BELIN. That is Decker?

Mr. SAWYER That's right.

Mr. BELIN. You believe that is what Decker said?

Mr. SAWYER. That is what he said, yes, that's right.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. SAWYER. His number is Dallas-l, and they are talking to 1. They have that confused.

Mr. BELIN. Well, Curry is 1 also?

Mr. SAWYER That's right.

Mr. BELIN. But I think they were riding in the same car?

Mr. SAWYER. That might be correct, but this is actually Decker's voice here, and that is what he had to say.

Mr. BELIN. Well, then, the comment is made "Notify Station 5----"

Mr. SAWYER. That is the Sheriffs Office.

Mr. BELIN. "To move all men available out of my Department back into the railroad yard----"

And that you feel is Decker talking because of the reference to Station 5?

Mr. SAWYER Also, my memory serves that it was his voice that made that.

Mr. BELIN. All right, then, at 12:31, is a notation there that quotes, "It looks like the President has been hit."

This is the first reference in the log about the Texas School Book Depository, is that correct?

Mr. SAWYER That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. Do you feel that you heard in your car some reference to the Texas School Book Depository building?

Mr. SAWYER. I do.

Mr. BELIN. Would it be fair for me to assume then that you had not at least completely left your car by 12:34 p.m?

Mr. SAWYER. Correct.

Mr. BELIN. Then when you got to the Texas School Book Depository, well, you got out of the car and talked to some people or to some officers?

Mr. SAWYER. Officers.

Mr. BELIN. And then what did the officers tell you?

Mr. SAWYER. That their information was that the shots had come from the fifth floor of the Texas School Book Depository.

Mr. BELIN. Did any officers give you any other information about the source of the shots other than the fact that it came from the Texas School Book Depository, at that particular time?

Mr. SAWYER. I can't say whether it was officers or who, but there was a reference also made to the overpass.

Mr. BELIN. All right, in any event--pardon me, do you have anything else to add?

Mr. SAWYER. Also, there was a broadcast here in the transcript about the railroad yard.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. SAWYER. And this could be part of what I was thinking about, or what I had heard, was this broadcast on the radio about the railroad yard.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? You went inside the building, is that correct?

Mr. SAWYER. We immediately went inside the building. I took--I believe Sgt. Harkness may have gone with me. I am not positive of that.

Mr. BELIN. Was the elevator on the first floor when you got there, or did you have to wait for it to come down?

Mr. SAWYER. Best of my recollection, it was there.

Mr. BELIN. You got to the elevator, went up, looked around back there. How long did you spend up there at the top floor that the elevator took you to?

Mr. SAWYER Just took a quick look around and made sure there was nobody hiding on that floor. I doubt if it took over a minute at the most.

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Mr. BELIN. To go up and look around and come down?

Mr. SAWYER. To look around on the floor. How long it took to go up, it couldn't have been over 3 minutes at the most from the time we left, got up and back down.

Mr. BELIN. Then that would put it around no sooner than 12:37, if you heard the call at 12:34?

Mr. SAWYER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Then you got down and what did you do?

Mr. SAWYER. I asked the Sergeant to doublecheck the security around the building, and then I took two patrolmen and stationed them at the front door and told them, with instructions not to let anybody in or out.

Mr. BELIN. Now up to the time you did this, had anyone else sealed off the building, that you know of?

Mr. SAWYER. When I arrived, the sergeant told me he had the building sealed off. There were officers all around the building. To the best of my recollection, there was no officer actually stationed on the front door, at the front door. There was some on the sidewalk in front of the front door, and also, as far as I know, had no instructions been issued to anyone to let anybody in or out.

Mr. BELIN. So yours would have been the first instructions to stop traffic from coming in and out of the front door, am I correct in that?

Mr. SAWYER. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. All right, anybody that would have been seen leaving the building would have been stopped and interrogated by the officers that were there? Even before you instructed them?

Mr. SAWYER. Yes, because they were looking for something or anything, and I know that anybody coming out of the back doors, from what the Sergeant told me, they would have stopped them, too.

Mr. BELIN. What happened at the front door now. There were people standing. out on the area of the steps, were there not?

Mr. SAWYER. No. There were some people around, yes.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether or not any of those would have been stopped?

Mr. SAWYER. For sure, no; I don't.

Mr. BELIN. Now after you got down and you issued these orders, then what did you

Mr. SAWYER. I set up a command post in front. The various officers were bringing up different witnesses who had seen various things, and I saw that this was quite an involved situation. It was so many of these people that had information, that I knew I didn't have time to take this information down, and by this time several deputy sheriffs were standing there, and one of them, I think he was a supervisor, I had his name at one time, I can't think of it now, was there, and he offered the use of an interrogation room of Sheriff Decker's office, I think he said, for interrogating these people.

Mr. BELIN. That is located down the street a little bit there?

Mr. SAWYER. Well, it is catty-corner across the street.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. SAWYER. It is southeast across the street from the Texas School Book Depository, at least from the corner, and so we set up a group of officers and deputy sheriffs who were to take charge of the witnesses and take them over to see that affidavits were taken from them. They were more or less an escort service so the witness wouldn't get away.

And then as our detectives began to show up, I sent them over to the Sheriff's Office to assist in taking these depositions or affidavits.

Mr. BELIN. How many witnesses were there around there during this period of time that you talked to?

Mr. SAWYER. Well, during the entire period of time that I was there, I would venture to say between 25 to 50 different people had come up with information of one kind or another.

Mr. BELIN. Now, on this radio log, Sawyer's Deposition Exhibit A, do you

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notice your number there for any calls at all that might have come in? What number did you use?

Mr. BELIN. I notice here a No. 9, the first time that appears to come in here is at 12:40 p.m.; is that right?

Mr. SAWYER. That is the first one after 12:40, sir.

Mr. BELIN. The first one after 12:30?

Mr. SAWYER. The first one after 12:30, yes, that is true.

Mr. BELIN. Then at 12:40, there is a bunch of calls at 12:40, with the next call number at 12:43, so you assume sometime 12:40 and 12:43 you, as No. 9, called in, is that correct?

Mr. SAWYER. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. Would you read what it says that you said there?

Mr. SAWYER. "We need more manpower down here at the Texas Book Depository; there should be a bunch on Main if somebody can pick them up and bring them down here."

Mr. BELIN. Was that said before or after you came down from the elevator?

Mr. SAWYER. That was after.

Mr. BELIN. Was that before or after you told the men there to guard the front door and not let anyone in or out?

Mr. SAWYER. That was after.

Mr. BELIN. Now the next time that No. 9 appears is at what time?

Mr. SAWYER. Immediately after 12:43 and before 12:45.

Mr. BELIN. What did you say then?

Mr. SAWYER. "The wanted person in this is a slender white male about 30, 5 feet 10, 165, carrying what looks to be a 30-30 or some type of Winchester."

Mr. BELIN. Then the statement is made from the home office, "It was a rifle?"

Mr. SAWYER. I answered, "Yes, a rifle."

Mr. BELIN. Then the reply to you, "Any clothing description ?"

Mr. BELIN. Then the statement is made sometime before 12:45 p.m., and after the 12:43 p.m., call, "Attention all squads, description was broadcast and no further information at this time."

Does that mean the description you made was rebroadcast?

Mr. SAWYER. I rebroadcast that description. That is what that means.

Mr. BELIN. I then notice on this radio log---I don't see anything more under 9, at least until after the, well, it is down until we have gone as far as 1:30 p.m., I don't see anything else, do you, sir?

Mr. SAWYER. No. There is another broadcast in there somewhere, though. I put out another description on the colored boy that worked in that department.

Mr. BELIN. What do you mean the colored boy that worked in that depository?

Mr. SAWYER. He is one that had a previous record in the narcotics, and he was supposed to have been a witness to the man being on that floor. He was supposed to have been a witness to Oswald being there.

Mr. BELIN. Would Charles Givens have been that boy?

Mr. SAWYER. Yes, I think that is the name, and I put out a description on him.

Mr. BELIN. How do you know he was supposed to be a witness on that?

Mr. SAWYER. Somebody told me that. Somebody came to me with the information. And again, that particular party, whoever it was, I don't know. I remember that a deputy sheriff came up to me who had been over taking these affidavits, that I sent them over there, and he came over from the sheriff's office with a picture and a description of this colored boy and he said that he was supposed to have worked at the Texas Book Depository, and he was the one employee who was missing, or he was missing from the building.

He wasn't accounted for, and that he was suppose to have some information about the man that did the shooting.

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Mr. BELIN. When you say about the man who did the shooting, did you know at that time who did the shooting?

Mr. SAWYER. No.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know about what time in the afternoon this was?

Mr. SAWYER. Somewhere along in here; let's see if we can't find it.

Mr. BELIN. This doesn't go past 1:53 p.m.

Mr. SAWYER. What about your other transcript?

Mr. BELIN. I have a transcript of another one here, at least I did have.

Mr. SAWYER. I think we caught the man in the crowd later and sent him down. We sent him directly down to Captain Fritz's office.

Mr. BELIN. Well, just a minute now. I see here on No. 1, you have two channels there.

Mr. SAWYER. This is Channel 1, yes.

Mr. BELIN. We will call this Sawyer's Deposition Exhibit B.

I see here that you go on at 12:45 p.m., with this statement by your No. 9. You want to read it?

Mr. SAWYER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. "From this building it is unknown if he is still there or not. Unknown if he was there in the first place."

Mr. BELIN. Then it reads back here, "All the information we have received, indicates it did come from the fifth or fourth of that building." That is the central headquarters back to you, is that it?

Mr. SAWYER. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. That is at least after 12:45 p.m., and before 12:48 p.m.?

Mr. SAWYER. Right.

Mr. BELIN. Now looking down on this log until the next time your number appears, is 1:12 p.m. What does that say?

Mr. SAWYER. "We have found empty rifle hulls on the fifth floor and from all indications the man had been there for some time."

Mr. BELIN. Then is there anything else?

Mr. SAWYER. This was reported to me by somebody inside the building.

Mr. BELIN. That was at 1:12 p.m., that the hulls were found, or at least shortly prior to that? This doesn't say anything else. It apparently doesn't go in detail much past 1:58 p.m., on Sawyer Deposition. Exhibit B, and 1:53

p.m., on Sawyer's Deposition Exhibit A.

Mr. SAWYER. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. Do you still feel sometime after that you might have called out another description?

Mr. SAWYER. It was another, sometime after that, or it has been left out of I don't think it has been left out of this, but it must have been after

Mr. BELIN. All right, now, sir; you did broadcast that description out of this

Mr. SAWYER. Yes, that's correct. That shows on the radio log. Where did you get that description

Mr. SAWYER. We are talking now about the colored man?

Mr. BELIN. No, I am talking about the one that is on Sawyer's Deposition Exhibit A, that shows you at 12:43.

Mr. SAWYER. That description came to me mainly from one witness who claimed to have seen the rifle barrel in the fifth or sixth floor of the building, and claimed to have been able to see the man up there.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know this person's name?

Mr. SAWYER. I do not.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know anything about him, what he was wearing?

Mr. SAWYER. Except that he was--I don't remember what he was wearing. I remember that he was a white man and that he wasn't young and he wasn't old. He was there. That is the only two things that I can remember about him.

Mr. BELIN. What age would you categorize as young?

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Mr. SAWYER. Around 35 would be my best recollection of it, but it could be a few years either way.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember if he was tall or short, or can't you remember anything about him?

Mr. SAWYER. I can't remember that much about him. I was real hazy about that.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember where he said he was standing when he saw the person with the rifle?

Mr. SAWYER. I didn't go into detail with him except that from the best of my recollection, he was standing where he could have seen him. But there were too many people coming up with questions to go into detail. I got the description and sent him on over to the Sheriff's Office.

Mr. BELIN. Inspector, do you remember anything else about this person who you say gave you the primary description?

Mr. SAWYER. No, I do not, except that I did send him with an escort to the Sheriff's Office to give fuller or more complete detail.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know if he was taken there to see a lineup at the police station?

Mr. SAWYER. No.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever see him again?

Mr. SAWYER. Not to my knowledge.

Mr. BELIN. Now, you talked to other people there that said they had some information with regard to where the shots may have come from?

Mr. SAWYER. Yes, through a number of people.

Mr. BELIN. First I am going to ask you if you talked to any other people who said they saw a rifle or part of a rifle?

Mr. SAWYER. Yes. There were a few who claimed that they had seen this.

Mr. BELIN. Where did these people that claimed they saw a rifle or part of a rifle---

Mr. SAWYER. The ones that I talked to were pointing out one of the upper floors of the Texas School Book Depository, which at that time I thought was the fifth floor.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know what portion, what side of the building it was? Was it the northeast corner or west side of the building?

Mr. SAWYER. It was on the south side of the building, and in the southeast corner.

Mr. BELIN. What about this person, who I will call the primary description witness, did he say what side of the building it was on?

Mr. SAWYER. He went and pointed out the window which I now note to be the sixth floor, but when I talked to him, I thought it was the fifth floor.

Mr. BELIN. The fifth floor?

Mr. SAWYER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What side of the building?

Mr. SAWYER. On the south side of the building, and the southeast corner.

Mr. BELIN. Did you talk to any witness, or did any witness talk to you who claimed to see any rifle or portion of a rifle at any place other than a window of Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. SAWYER. No, did any---

Mr. BELIN. Did any officer give you any information about talking to anyone who saw a rifle or a portion of a rifle at any place other than a window in the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. SAWYER. No, not to my knowledge.

Mr. BELIN. Did you talk to people who attempted to locate the shots on the basis of what I would call their sense of hearing, rather than their sense of sight?

In other words, what they heard rather than what they saw?

Mr. SAWYER. Correct. That is correct. Some of them claimed that they had heard shots, or thought they heard shots from over the overpass.

Mr. BELIN. Did all the people you talked to say that they heard shots over the overpass? Claim they had some knowledge about where the shots came from?

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Did they all say they heard shots from the overpass, or did they say they heard some from other places?

Mr. SAWYER. No. Very few said they heard the shots come from the overpass, or thought they heard them from that area.

Mr. BELIN. Well, where did other people say they heard shots come from?

Mr. SAWYER. Most of the people that heard the shots pointed out the Texas Book Depository.

Mr. BELIN. Did some of the people that heard shots, or thought they heard shots from the Texas School Book Depository, all say they saw a rifle there?

Mr. SAWYER. No.

Mr. BELIN. Most of them say they saw a rifle there?

Mr. SAWYER. No, just a few, very few.

Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else you can think of that occurred at the Texas School Book Depository that afternoon while you were there that might have any relevancy about where the shots came from, other than what you have told thus far?

Mr. SAWYER. Well, I had heard some of the officers come to me and said there was supposed to be, somebody told them about a woman that had taken some pictures of that window, and then one of the sergeants came to me, and I am not sure who the sergeant is now, but anyway he said that there was on the building immediately west east, I am sorry cast of the Texas School Book Depository, that a man up in one of the upper windows up there was taking some moving pictures of what had gone on.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever contact this man? Do you know what his name is?

Mr. SAWYER. No; I don't know his name. The sergeant told me that the man would not give them the pictures, that he was waiting for the Secret Service or the FBI, I forget which now, and I sent the sergeant and two men back over there with instructions to bring that man and his pictures to me.

When they got back over there, Forrest Sorrels of the Secret Service was already there, and at least they so reported back to me, and was talking to this man.

So I told them to go ahead with their normal assignments and since Forrest was already there and talking to him, I knew that that part would be taken care of.

Mr. BELIN. You don't know what his name was or what the results of it was?

Mr. SAWYER. I don't know.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else?

Mr. SAWYER. Later that afternoon one of our colored officer detectives saw this colored man in this crowd across the street and we had previously broadcast a description on, and he took him into custody and sent him immediately down to Captain Fritz' office.

Mr. BELIN. He gave a statement, is that it?

Mr. SAWYER. This I don't know. I presume he did, but I didn't stop to talk to him or take any information. I just sent him on down there.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else you can think of at this time?

Mr. SAWYER. No.

Mr. BELIN. You spent most of the afternoon out in front of the building there?

Mr. SAWYER. I spent most of the afternoon up until 4 o'clock.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. SAWYER. I went back down to the City Hall and checked around there to see if anything further I could do, and then I went home.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do on Saturday, the 23d? Anything that has to do with the assassination or the investigation of the Tippit murder?

Mr. SAWYER. No. I happened to be off on Saturday, and I didn't go back down. The boss didn't call me, so I stayed home.

Mr. BELIN. What about Sunday?

Mr. SAWYER. Same thing. In fact, I didn't even hear about the other thing until way late in the afternoon.

Mr. BELIN. Is there any other information that you can think of, whether I have asked it or not, that might be in any way relevant here?

Mr. SAWYER. The only other thing I can remember that I did down there, was

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when the shooting on Officer Tippit came in, I released half a dozen men to go to Oak Cliff to help with that.

Mr. BELIN. Inspector, is there anything else that you can think of, whether I have asked it or not, that is in any way relevant here?

Mr. SAWYER. I can't think of anything.

Mr. BELIN. Sir, we certainly appreciate your cooperation in coming down here.

You have a right, if you would like, after this report is typewritten, to read it and sign it before it is sent to us, or you can waive the reading of it and have it sent to us directly.

It doesn't make a bit of difference to us.

Mr. SAWYER. Whichever you prefer It doesn't make any difference to me.

I would like to read it.

Mr. BELIN. Why don't we say you read it and sign it, and it will be sent to us.

Mr. SAWYER. Okay.

Gerald Dalton Henslee

Page 325

TESTIMONY OF GERALD DALTON HENSLEE

SAWYER INSPECTOR VOLUME VI

The testimony of J. Herbert Sawyer was taken at 3:45 p.m., on April 8, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BELIN. Would you stand and raise your right hand.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. SAWYER. I do.

Mr. BELIN. What As your occupation?

Mr. SAWYER. Inspector of Police.

Mr. BELIN. Of what Police Department?

Mr. SAWYER. Dallas Police Department.

Mr. BELIN. You live here in Dallas?

Mr. SAWYER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Inspector, how long have you been with the Police Department?

Mr. SAWYER. 23 years.

Mr. BELIN. That would be then you came to the Police Department around 1941 or so?

Mr. SAWYER. 1941, is right.

Mr. BELIN. You have been with them ever since 1941?

Mr. SAWYER. Except for a brief hitch in the Service during the war.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do in the Service?

Mr. SAWYER. I was a yeoman in the Navy.

Mr. BELIN. Honorable discharge?

Mr. SAWYER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Prior to going into the Service, what did you do?

Mr. SAWYER. Policeman.

Mr. BELIN. Before you went into the Service?

Mr. SAWYER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did you go to school here in Dallas?

Mr. SAWYER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Graduated from high school?

Mr. SAWYER. Yes. I didn't graduate. I lacked half a year.

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Mr. BELIN. Then you got out and you went in--did you go right on the police force then?

Mr. SAWYER. No.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do?

Mr. SAWYER. I worked as credit manager in a jewelry company. This was immediately prior to coming to the police department.

Before that, I was a doorman at the Mural Room of the Baker Hotel.

Mr. BELIN. When you first got out of high school, what did you do?

Mr. SAWYER. I went out to California and went to work as a clerk in a grocery store.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do after that?

Mr. SAWYER. Came back to Dallas and went to Business College, and then I went to work as a doorman at the Mural Room of the Baker Hotel. And then from there I went to the jewelry, and later became credit manager.

Mr. BELIN. And then after that?

Mr. SAWYER Then to the Police Department.

Mr. BELIN. You have been with the Police Department ever since except for this time in the Navy?

Mr. SAWYER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. How old are you?

Mr. SAWYER. 47.

Mr. BELIN. You are married ?

Mr. SAWYER Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Inspector, were you on duty on November 22, 1963?

Mr. SAWYER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. By the way, were you an Inspector at that time?

Mr. SAWYER. I was.

Mr. BELIN. Where were you stationed with reference to the motorcade? Just what were your duties?

Mr. SAWYER. I had charge of the crowd detail on Main Street from Akard to Harwood.

Mr. BELIN. After the motorcade passed, what did you do?

Mr. SAWYER. I headed west on Main Street.

Mr. BELIN. Did you immediately get in your car after the motorcade passed?

Mr. SAWYER. Well, not immediately, because the crowd was real thick and completely surrounded the car, but I did as soon as it was feasible to get back in the car.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember where your car was parked?

Mr. SAWYER. Yes. It was parked on Ervay Street, at the intersection of Ervay and Main, but it was, well, it was on the north side of Main Street on Ervay. It runs parallel to Main Street.

Mr. BELIN. All right, you got in your car shortly after the motorcade passed then?

Mr. SAWYER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. SAWYER. Well, I headed west, or tried to. I had to wait until the crowd cleared out, and as soon as the crowd cleared enough, I headed west on Main Street.

Mr. BELIN. Any particular reason why you headed west on Main Street?

Mr. SAWYER. Because that was the way the car was pointed at the time I got in.

Mr. BELIN. All right, then what did you do as you went west on Main Street?

Mr. SAWYER. I just went real slow down the street because of people crossing, and at the time, the radio broadcast came in about a lot of activity down at the lower end around Houston and Elm Street.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what radio broadcast this is? Who broadcast it?

Mr. SAWYER. I heard Sheriff Decker come on the radio and tell the dispatcher to get all of his men over to, and I thought he said Texas School Book Depository, but at least that was the overall gist of the conversation. That

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is what I gathered. He may not have said Texas School Book Depository, but the Texas School Book Depository was mentioned in the broadcasts that were made at that time.

Mr. BELIN. Was this on Channel 1 or Channel 2 if you remember?

Mr. SAWYER. Channel 2, I am sure.

Mr. BELIN. Did Sheriff Decker have any particular call number at all, or not, in your police number system?

Mr. SAWYER. No. I was wondering why he come on our radio, but then I think that he was with Chief Curry and probably using that radio.

Mr. BELIN. All right, in any event, a call was made from Chief Curry's car?

Mr. . SAWYER. Well, this I don't know either. I don't know what car it was made from, but I think it was Sheriff Decker talking. I could recognize his voice, yes.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do then?

Mr. SAWYER. Then I went on down to the Texas Book Depository.

Mr. BELIN. Where did you park your car?

Mr. SAWYER. In front of the Texas School Book Depository.

Mr. BELIN. In front of the main entrance there?

Mr. SAWYER. In front of the main entrance.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do then?

Mr. SAWYER. Immediately went into---well, talked to some of the officers around there who told me the story that they had thought some shots had come from one of the floors in the building, and I think the fifth floor was mentioned, but nobody seemed to know who the shots were directed at or what had actually happened, except there had been a shooting there at the time the President's motorcade had gone by.

And I went with a couple of officers and a man who I believed worked in the building. The elevator was just to the right of the main entrance, and we went to the top floor, which was pointed out to me by this other man as being the floor that we were talking about. We had talked about the fifth floor. And we went back to the storage area and looked around and didn't see anything.

Mr. BELIN. Now you took an elevator up, is that correct?

Mr. SAWYER. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. The route that you took to the elevator, you went to the front door?

Mr. SAWYER. Right.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. SAWYER. We got into the elevator. We run into this man.

Mr. BELIN. Well, when you say you got into the elevator, where was the elevator as you walked in the front door?

Mr. SAWYER. It was to the right.

Mr. BELIN. To the right?

Mr. SAWYER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Was it a freight elevator or a passenger elevator?

Mr. SAWYER. The best of my recollection, it was a passenger elevator.

Mr. BELIN. Did you push for the top button in that elevator?

Mr. SAWYER. Well, I don't know who pushed it, but we went up to the top floor.

Mr. BELIN. You went up to the top floor that the elevator would go to?

Mr. SAWYER. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. You got off, and were there officers there?

Mr. SAWYER. There was one or two other officers with me.

Mr. BELIN. Now when you got off, you say you went into the back there into a warehouse area?

Mr. SAWYER. Storage area; what appeared to be a storage area.

Mr. BELIN. Did you go into any place other than a warehouse or storage area?

Mr. SAWYER. No.

Mr. BELIN. Was there anything other than a warehouse or storage area there?

Mr. SAWYER. Well, to one side I could see an office over there with people in it. Some women that apparently were office workers.

Mr. BELIN. Now Inspector, what did you do then?

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Mr. SAWYER. Well, I didn't see anything that was out of the ordinary, so I immediately came back downstairs to check the security on the building.

Mr. BELIN. When you say check the security on the building, what do you mean by that?

Mr. SAWYER. Well, to be sure it was covered off properly, and then posted two men on the front entrance with instructions not to let anyone in or out.

Mr. BELIN. What about the rear entrance?

Mr. BELIN. When was the order given to cover the front entrance of the building?

Mr. SAWYER. Well, they had it covered when I got there. There were officers all around the front. The only thing I don't think had been done by the time I got there, was the instructions not to let anybody in or out.

Mr. BELIN. All right, now, did you give the instructions not to let anyone in or out?

Mr. SAWYER I did.

Mr. BELIN. Did you give those instructions before or after you came down from the fourth floor or top floor?

Mr. SAWYER. After I got down.

Mr. BELIN. So your procedure, if I understand it, was this. You were driving on Main Street when you heard Sheriff Decker on the radio?

Mr. SAWYER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Inspector, to try and reconstruct the time of sealing off the building, I believe you said that before you got to the building or at about the time you got to the building, you thought that you heard something about the Texas School Book Depository over the radio?

Mr. SAWYER. Right.

Mr. BELIN. At least some time before you left your car, is that correct?

Mr. SAWYER. Yes; it would have to be, in order to hear it.

Mr. BELIN. Now, I have with me the transcript of the radio log here of November 22, and I notice that, according to the log, at 12:30, and you have examined it, there appears there is a statement by Chief Curry, and then something by Sheriff Decker concerning, well, we'd better call this Sawyer's Deposition Exhibit A, which is a transcript of the radio log, and it reads right now--we will try and restaple it later on--but right now, Page 2 and 3 are reversed insofar as the order is concerned.

You see at 12:28 p.m., on this exhibit Curry calls in that they are near the triple underpass, and then at 12:30 p.m., it says, "Station Break," is that right?

Mr. SAWYER. Yes, sir.

Mr. SAWYER. Right.

Mr. BELIN. Then according to the transcript, the statement is made you might just read it here in front of you: "Go to the hospital, officers, Parkland Hospital, have them stand by. Get men on top of the underpass, see what happened up there, go up to the overpass. Have Parkland stand by." You see these words here, Inspector Sawyer?

Mr. SAWYER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Then on a continuation, "Dallas-l," which is marked in by someone as Sheriff Decker says: "I'm sure it's going to take some time to get your men in there. Put every one of my men there." Then there is a call back to Curry from 531, which is your home station, is that correct?

Mr. SAWYER. That's right. I really didn't quite understand all of it.

Mr. BELIN. Then Curry is quoted as saying: "Notify Station 5 to move all men available out of my department back into the railroad yard and try to determine what happened and hold everything secure until homicide and other investigators can get in there."

Mr. SAWYER. That is Decker speaking there.

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Mr. BELIN. That is Decker?

Mr. SAWYER That's right.

Mr. BELIN. You believe that is what Decker said?

Mr. SAWYER. That is what he said, yes, that's right.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. SAWYER. His number is Dallas-l, and they are talking to 1. They have that confused.

Mr. BELIN. Well, Curry is 1 also?

Mr. SAWYER That's right.

Mr. BELIN. But I think they were riding in the same car?

Mr. SAWYER. That might be correct, but this is actually Decker's voice here, and that is what he had to say.

Mr. BELIN. Well, then, the comment is made "Notify Station 5----"

Mr. SAWYER. That is the Sheriffs Office.

Mr. BELIN. "To move all men available out of my Department back into the railroad yard----"

And that you feel is Decker talking because of the reference to Station 5?

Mr. SAWYER Also, my memory serves that it was his voice that made that.

Mr. BELIN. All right, then, at 12:31, is a notation there that quotes, "It looks like the President has been hit."

This is the first reference in the log about the Texas School Book Depository, is that correct?

Mr. SAWYER That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. Do you feel that you heard in your car some reference to the Texas School Book Depository building?

Mr. SAWYER. I do.

Mr. BELIN. Would it be fair for me to assume then that you had not at least completely left your car by 12:34 p.m?

Mr. SAWYER. Correct.

Mr. BELIN. Then when you got to the Texas School Book Depository, well, you got out of the car and talked to some people or to some officers?

Mr. SAWYER. Officers.

Mr. BELIN. And then what did the officers tell you?

Mr. SAWYER. That their information was that the shots had come from the fifth floor of the Texas School Book Depository.

Mr. BELIN. Did any officers give you any other information about the source of the shots other than the fact that it came from the Texas School Book Depository, at that particular time?

Mr. SAWYER. I can't say whether it was officers or who, but there was a reference also made to the overpass.

Mr. BELIN. All right, in any event--pardon me, do you have anything else to add?

Mr. SAWYER. Also, there was a broadcast here in the transcript about the railroad yard.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. SAWYER. And this could be part of what I was thinking about, or what I had heard, was this broadcast on the radio about the railroad yard.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? You went inside the building, is that correct?

Mr. SAWYER. We immediately went inside the building. I took--I believe Sgt. Harkness may have gone with me. I am not positive of that.

Mr. BELIN. Was the elevator on the first floor when you got there, or did you have to wait for it to come down?

Mr. SAWYER. Best of my recollection, it was there.

Mr. BELIN. You got to the elevator, went up, looked around back there. How long did you spend up there at the top floor that the elevator took you to?

Mr. SAWYER Just took a quick look around and made sure there was nobody hiding on that floor. I doubt if it took over a minute at the most.

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Mr. BELIN. To go up and look around and come down?

Mr. SAWYER. To look around on the floor. How long it took to go up, it couldn't have been over 3 minutes at the most from the time we left, got up and back down.

Mr. BELIN. Then that would put it around no sooner than 12:37, if you heard the call at 12:34?

Mr. SAWYER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Then you got down and what did you do?

Mr. SAWYER. I asked the Sergeant to doublecheck the security around the building, and then I took two patrolmen and stationed them at the front door and told them, with instructions not to let anybody in or out.

Mr. BELIN. Now up to the time you did this, had anyone else sealed off the building, that you know of?

Mr. SAWYER. When I arrived, the sergeant told me he had the building sealed off. There were officers all around the building. To the best of my recollection, there was no officer actually stationed on the front door, at the front door. There was some on the sidewalk in front of the front door, and also, as far as I know, had no instructions been issued to anyone to let anybody in or out.

Mr. BELIN. So yours would have been the first instructions to stop traffic from coming in and out of the front door, am I correct in that?

Mr. SAWYER. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. All right, anybody that would have been seen leaving the building would have been stopped and interrogated by the officers that were there? Even before you instructed them?

Mr. SAWYER. Yes, because they were looking for something or anything, and I know that anybody coming out of the back doors, from what the Sergeant told me, they would have stopped them, too.

Mr. BELIN. What happened at the front door now. There were people standing. out on the area of the steps, were there not?

Mr. SAWYER. No. There were some people around, yes.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether or not any of those would have been stopped?

Mr. SAWYER. For sure, no; I don't.

Mr. BELIN. Now after you got down and you issued these orders, then what did you

Mr. SAWYER. I set up a command post in front. The various officers were bringing up different witnesses who had seen various things, and I saw that this was quite an involved situation. It was so many of these people that had information, that I knew I didn't have time to take this information down, and by this time several deputy sheriffs were standing there, and one of them, I think he was a supervisor, I had his name at one time, I can't think of it now, was there, and he offered the use of an interrogation room of Sheriff Decker's office, I think he said, for interrogating these people.

Mr. BELIN. That is located down the street a little bit there?

Mr. SAWYER. Well, it is catty-corner across the street.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. SAWYER. It is southeast across the street from the Texas School Book Depository, at least from the corner, and so we set up a group of officers and deputy sheriffs who were to take charge of the witnesses and take them over to see that affidavits were taken from them. They were more or less an escort service so the witness wouldn't get away.

And then as our detectives began to show up, I sent them over to the Sheriff's Office to assist in taking these depositions or affidavits.

Mr. BELIN. How many witnesses were there around there during this period of time that you talked to?

Mr. SAWYER. Well, during the entire period of time that I was there, I would venture to say between 25 to 50 different people had come up with information of one kind or another.

Mr. BELIN. Now, on this radio log, Sawyer's Deposition Exhibit A, do you

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notice your number there for any calls at all that might have come in? What number did you use?

Mr. BELIN. I notice here a No. 9, the first time that appears to come in here is at 12:40 p.m.; is that right?

Mr. SAWYER. That is the first one after 12:40, sir.

Mr. BELIN. The first one after 12:30?

Mr. SAWYER. The first one after 12:30, yes, that is true.

Mr. BELIN. Then at 12:40, there is a bunch of calls at 12:40, with the next call number at 12:43, so you assume sometime 12:40 and 12:43 you, as No. 9, called in, is that correct?

Mr. SAWYER. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. Would you read what it says that you said there?

Mr. SAWYER. "We need more manpower down here at the Texas Book Depository; there should be a bunch on Main if somebody can pick them up and bring them down here."

Mr. BELIN. Was that said before or after you came down from the elevator?

Mr. SAWYER. That was after.

Mr. BELIN. Was that before or after you told the men there to guard the front door and not let anyone in or out?

Mr. SAWYER. That was after.

Mr. BELIN. Now the next time that No. 9 appears is at what time?

Mr. SAWYER. Immediately after 12:43 and before 12:45.

Mr. BELIN. What did you say then?

Mr. SAWYER. "The wanted person in this is a slender white male about 30, 5 feet 10, 165, carrying what looks to be a 30-30 or some type of Winchester."

Mr. BELIN. Then the statement is made from the home office, "It was a rifle?"

Mr. SAWYER. I answered, "Yes, a rifle."

Mr. BELIN. Then the reply to you, "Any clothing description ?"

Mr. BELIN. Then the statement is made sometime before 12:45 p.m., and after the 12:43 p.m., call, "Attention all squads, description was broadcast and no further information at this time."

Does that mean the description you made was rebroadcast?

Mr. SAWYER. I rebroadcast that description. That is what that means.

Mr. BELIN. I then notice on this radio log---I don't see anything more under 9, at least until after the, well, it is down until we have gone as far as 1:30 p.m., I don't see anything else, do you, sir?

Mr. SAWYER. No. There is another broadcast in there somewhere, though. I put out another description on the colored boy that worked in that department.

Mr. BELIN. What do you mean the colored boy that worked in that depository?

Mr. SAWYER. He is one that had a previous record in the narcotics, and he was supposed to have been a witness to the man being on that floor. He was supposed to have been a witness to Oswald being there.

Mr. BELIN. Would Charles Givens have been that boy?

Mr. SAWYER. Yes, I think that is the name, and I put out a description on him.

Mr. BELIN. How do you know he was supposed to be a witness on that?

Mr. SAWYER. Somebody told me that. Somebody came to me with the information. And again, that particular party, whoever it was, I don't know. I remember that a deputy sheriff came up to me who had been over taking these affidavits, that I sent them over there, and he came over from the sheriff's office with a picture and a description of this colored boy and he said that he was supposed to have worked at the Texas Book Depository, and he was the one employee who was missing, or he was missing from the building.

He wasn't accounted for, and that he was suppose to have some information about the man that did the shooting.

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Mr. BELIN. When you say about the man who did the shooting, did you know at that time who did the shooting?

Mr. SAWYER. No.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know about what time in the afternoon this was?

Mr. SAWYER. Somewhere along in here; let's see if we can't find it.

Mr. BELIN. This doesn't go past 1:53 p.m.

Mr. SAWYER. What about your other transcript?

Mr. BELIN. I have a transcript of another one here, at least I did have.

Mr. SAWYER. I think we caught the man in the crowd later and sent him down. We sent him directly down to Captain Fritz's office.

Mr. BELIN. Well, just a minute now. I see here on No. 1, you have two channels there.

Mr. SAWYER. This is Channel 1, yes.

Mr. BELIN. We will call this Sawyer's Deposition Exhibit B.

I see here that you go on at 12:45 p.m., with this statement by your No. 9. You want to read it?

Mr. SAWYER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. "From this building it is unknown if he is still there or not. Unknown if he was there in the first place."

Mr. BELIN. Then it reads back here, "All the information we have received, indicates it did come from the fifth or fourth of that building." That is the central headquarters back to you, is that it?

Mr. SAWYER. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. That is at least after 12:45 p.m., and before 12:48 p.m.?

Mr. SAWYER. Right.

Mr. BELIN. Now looking down on this log until the next time your number appears, is 1:12 p.m. What does that say?

Mr. SAWYER. "We have found empty rifle hulls on the fifth floor and from all indications the man had been there for some time."

Mr. BELIN. Then is there anything else?

Mr. SAWYER. This was reported to me by somebody inside the building.

Mr. BELIN. That was at 1:12 p.m., that the hulls were found, or at least shortly prior to that? This doesn't say anything else. It apparently doesn't go in detail much past 1:58 p.m., on Sawyer Deposition. Exhibit B, and 1:53

p.m., on Sawyer's Deposition Exhibit A.

Mr. SAWYER. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. Do you still feel sometime after that you might have called out another description?

Mr. SAWYER. It was another, sometime after that, or it has been left out of I don't think it has been left out of this, but it must have been after

Mr. BELIN. All right, now, sir; you did broadcast that description out of this

Mr. SAWYER. Yes, that's correct. That shows on the radio log. Where did you get that description

Mr. SAWYER. We are talking now about the colored man?

Mr. BELIN. No, I am talking about the one that is on Sawyer's Deposition Exhibit A, that shows you at 12:43.

Mr. SAWYER. That description came to me mainly from one witness who claimed to have seen the rifle barrel in the fifth or sixth floor of the building, and claimed to have been able to see the man up there.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know this person's name?

Mr. SAWYER. I do not.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know anything about him, what he was wearing?

Mr. SAWYER. Except that he was--I don't remember what he was wearing. I remember that he was a white man and that he wasn't young and he wasn't old. He was there. That is the only two things that I can remember about him.

Mr. BELIN. What age would you categorize as young?

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Mr. SAWYER. Around 35 would be my best recollection of it, but it could be a few years either way.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember if he was tall or short, or can't you remember anything about him?

Mr. SAWYER. I can't remember that much about him. I was real hazy about that.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember where he said he was standing when he saw the person with the rifle?

Mr. SAWYER. I didn't go into detail with him except that from the best of my recollection, he was standing where he could have seen him. But there were too many people coming up with questions to go into detail. I got the description and sent him on over to the Sheriff's Office.

Mr. BELIN. Inspector, do you remember anything else about this person who you say gave you the primary description?

Mr. SAWYER. No, I do not, except that I did send him with an escort to the Sheriff's Office to give fuller or more complete detail.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know if he was taken there to see a lineup at the police station?

Mr. SAWYER. No.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever see him again?

Mr. SAWYER. Not to my knowledge.

Mr. BELIN. Now, you talked to other people there that said they had some information with regard to where the shots may have come from?

Mr. SAWYER. Yes, through a number of people.

Mr. BELIN. First I am going to ask you if you talked to any other people who said they saw a rifle or part of a rifle?

Mr. SAWYER. Yes. There were a few who claimed that they had seen this.

Mr. BELIN. Where did these people that claimed they saw a rifle or part of a rifle---

Mr. SAWYER. The ones that I talked to were pointing out one of the upper floors of the Texas School Book Depository, which at that time I thought was the fifth floor.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know what portion, what side of the building it was? Was it the northeast corner or west side of the building?

Mr. SAWYER. It was on the south side of the building, and in the southeast corner.

Mr. BELIN. What about this person, who I will call the primary description witness, did he say what side of the building it was on?

Mr. SAWYER. He went and pointed out the window which I now note to be the sixth floor, but when I talked to him, I thought it was the fifth floor.

Mr. BELIN. The fifth floor?

Mr. SAWYER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What side of the building?

Mr. SAWYER. On the south side of the building, and the southeast corner.

Mr. BELIN. Did you talk to any witness, or did any witness talk to you who claimed to see any rifle or portion of a rifle at any place other than a window of Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. SAWYER. No, did any---

Mr. BELIN. Did any officer give you any information about talking to anyone who saw a rifle or a portion of a rifle at any place other than a window in the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. SAWYER. No, not to my knowledge.

Mr. BELIN. Did you talk to people who attempted to locate the shots on the basis of what I would call their sense of hearing, rather than their sense of sight?

In other words, what they heard rather than what they saw?

Mr. SAWYER. Correct. That is correct. Some of them claimed that they had heard shots, or thought they heard shots from over the overpass.

Mr. BELIN. Did all the people you talked to say that they heard shots over the overpass? Claim they had some knowledge about where the shots came from?

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Did they all say they heard shots from the overpass, or did they say they heard some from other places?

Mr. SAWYER. No. Very few said they heard the shots come from the overpass, or thought they heard them from that area.

Mr. BELIN. Well, where did other people say they heard shots come from?

Mr. SAWYER. Most of the people that heard the shots pointed out the Texas Book Depository.

Mr. BELIN. Did some of the people that heard shots, or thought they heard shots from the Texas School Book Depository, all say they saw a rifle there?

Mr. SAWYER. No.

Mr. BELIN. Most of them say they saw a rifle there?

Mr. SAWYER. No, just a few, very few.

Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else you can think of that occurred at the Texas School Book Depository that afternoon while you were there that might have any relevancy about where the shots came from, other than what you have told thus far?

Mr. SAWYER. Well, I had heard some of the officers come to me and said there was supposed to be, somebody told them about a woman that had taken some pictures of that window, and then one of the sergeants came to me, and I am not sure who the sergeant is now, but anyway he said that there was on the building immediately west east, I am sorry cast of the Texas School Book Depository, that a man up in one of the upper windows up there was taking some moving pictures of what had gone on.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever contact this man? Do you know what his name is?

Mr. SAWYER. No; I don't know his name. The sergeant told me that the man would not give them the pictures, that he was waiting for the Secret Service or the FBI, I forget which now, and I sent the sergeant and two men back over there with instructions to bring that man and his pictures to me.

When they got back over there, Forrest Sorrels of the Secret Service was already there, and at least they so reported back to me, and was talking to this man.

So I told them to go ahead with their normal assignments and since Forrest was already there and talking to him, I knew that that part would be taken care of.

Mr. BELIN. You don't know what his name was or what the results of it was?

Mr. SAWYER. I don't know.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else?

Mr. SAWYER. Later that afternoon one of our colored officer detectives saw this colored man in this crowd across the street and we had previously broadcast a description on, and he took him into custody and sent him immediately down to Captain Fritz' office.

Mr. BELIN. He gave a statement, is that it?

Mr. SAWYER. This I don't know. I presume he did, but I didn't stop to talk to him or take any information. I just sent him on down there.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else you can think of at this time?

Mr. SAWYER. No.

Mr. BELIN. You spent most of the afternoon out in front of the building there?

Mr. SAWYER. I spent most of the afternoon up until 4 o'clock.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. SAWYER. I went back down to the City Hall and checked around there to see if anything further I could do, and then I went home.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do on Saturday, the 23d? Anything that has to do with the assassination or the investigation of the Tippit murder?

Mr. SAWYER. No. I happened to be off on Saturday, and I didn't go back down. The boss didn't call me, so I stayed home.

Mr. BELIN. What about Sunday?

Mr. SAWYER. Same thing. In fact, I didn't even hear about the other thing until way late in the afternoon.

Mr. BELIN. Is there any other information that you can think of, whether I have asked it or not, that might be in any way relevant here?

Mr. SAWYER. The only other thing I can remember that I did down there, was

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when the shooting on Officer Tippit came in, I released half a dozen men to go to Oak Cliff to help with that.

Mr. BELIN. Inspector, is there anything else that you can think of, whether I have asked it or not, that is in any way relevant here?

Mr. SAWYER. I can't think of anything.

Mr. BELIN. Sir, we certainly appreciate your cooperation in coming down here.

You have a right, if you would like, after this report is typewritten, to read it and sign it before it is sent to us, or you can waive the reading of it and have it sent to us directly.

It doesn't make a bit of difference to us.

Mr. SAWYER. Whichever you prefer It doesn't make any difference to me.

I would like to read it.

Mr. BELIN. Why don't we say you read it and sign it, and it will be sent to us.

Mr. SAWYER. Okay.

Gerald Dalton Henslee

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TESTIMONY OF GERALD DALTON HENSLEE

V-254-258.

TESTIMONY OF PATRICK T. DEAN

The President's Commission reconvened at 2 p.m.

(Chairman Warren presiding and Mr. Dulles present.)

The CHAIRMAN. All right, gentlemen.

Do you have a statement?

Mr. RANKIN. Sergeant Dean asked if he couldn't appear before the Commission and testify. We took his deposition in Dallas, and he asked, when he signed his

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deposition, whether he couldn't appear personally, so we are permitting him to do this.

The CHAIRMAN. We are very happy to have you, Sergeant. Will you raise your right hand and be sworn, please?

You solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give before the Commission shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. DEAN. I do.

The CHAIRMAN. Be seated, please.

Mr. Rankin, you may examine the witness.

Mr. RANKIN. Sergeant, will you give us your name, your address, please?

Mr. DEAN. Patrick T. Dean. I live at 2822 Nicholson Drive in Dallas.

Mr. RANKIN. Are you connected with the police department in Dallas?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. What is your position?

Mr. DEAN. I am a sergeant on patrol.

Mr. RANKIN. How long have you been an official in the police department?

Mr. DEAN. Eleven and a half years.

Mr. RANKIN. Will you tell us briefly any training or experience you have had?

Mr. DEAN. Well, I worked as a patrolman for 5 years. Then I was promoted to sergeant and remained in the patrol division. I have since been in the patrol division the rest of the time.

Mr. RANKIN. You have given us your deposition, have you not, Sergeant?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. And is that correct and true as far as anything you know?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. Is there any part of it that you want to change or correct or modify?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir; I feel the main reason I wanted to appear before the Commission was about the 20 or 25 minutes that was off the record that I feel I would like the Commission to have on the record, and this is between Mr. Griffin and I. He was the original one who started my deposition.

Mr. RANKIN. Well, do you want to tell that at this time?

First, is there anything about what you said on the record that was not correct?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. And the truth?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir.

Well, Mr. Griffin had questioned me about 2 hours, or maybe a little longer. There was no problems at all, no difficulties. And after that length of time, a little over 2 hours, Mr. Griffin desired to get off the record, and he advised the court reporter that he would be off the record and he could go smoke a cigarette or get a Coke, and he would let him know when he wanted him to get back on the record.

Well, after the court reporter left, Mr. Griffin started talking to me in a manner of gaining my confidence in that he would help me and that he felt I would probably need some help in the future.

My not knowing what he was building up to, I asked Mr. Griffin to go ahead and ask me what he was going to ask me. He continued to advise me that he wanted me to listen to what he had to say before he asked me whatever question he was going to ask me. I finally told him that whatever he wanted to ask me he could just ask me, and if I knew I would tell him the truth or if I didn't know, I would tell him I didn't know.

Mr. Griffin took my reports, one dated February 18, the subject of it was an interview with Jack Ruby, and one dated November 26, which was my assignment in the basement.

He said there were things in these statements which were not true and, in fact, he said both these statements, he said there were particular things in there that were not true, and I asked him what portions did he consider not true, and then very dogmatically he said that, "Jack Ruby didn't tell you that he entered the basement via the Main Street ramp."

And, of course, I was shocked at this. This is what I testified to, in fact, I was cross-examined on this, and he, Mr. Griffin, further said, "Jack Ruby

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did not tell you that he had thought or planned to kill Oswald two nights prior."

And he said, "Your testimony was false, and these reports to your chief of police are false."

So this, of course, all this was off the record. I told Mr. Griffin then this shocked me, and I told him it shocked me; that I couldn't imagine what he was getting at or why he would accuse me of this, and I asked him, and Mr Griffin replied he didn't or he wasn't at liberty to discuss that particular of it with me, and that he wasn't trying to cross-examine me here, but that under cross- examination he could prove that my testimony was false, and that is when I told Mr. Griffin that these are the facts and I can't change them. This is what I know about it.

I quoted Ruby just about verbatim, and since he didn't believe me, and I was saying they were true, we might as well terminate the interview.

Mr. Griffin then got back on the record, or before he did get back on the record, he said, "Well now, Sergeant Dean, I respect you as a witness, I respect you in your profession, but I have offered my help and assistance, and I again will offer you my assistance, and that I don't feel you will be subjecting yourself to loss of your job," or some words to that effect, "If you will go ahead and tell me the truth about it."

I again told Mr. Griffin that these were the facts and I couldn't change them, so with that we got back on the record.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you ask Mr. Griffin to ever put this part that was off the record on the record?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. RANKIN. Why didn't you at that time?

Mr. DEAN. Well, now the discussion was, I said, "Mr. Griffin, I have waived my rights for an attorney, of which. I don't feel like I need one." I still don't feel like I need one.

The CHAIRMAN. And you do not need one either Sergeant.

Mr. DEAN. True.

The CHAIRMAN. You will get along all right.

Mr. DEAN. Thank you.

I said, "I have come over here with the idea of giving you all the information that I have." In fact, I had some additional information that I had gotten the night before, and it was a call that I had received from some man in Victoria, Canada, who said he had a reel of movie film that he had taken of the assassination.

I got this man's name, where he called from, had the police department in Victoria check to crisscross the number, and I gave him the name well, all the information as to where the call had originated from, his name, also this man's attorney, he had given me his name, and I told him that the reason the man had called, had called especially for me at the police department, was that he had a reel of movie film that he had taken the day of the assassination and that these or the camera was on the President at the time of the assassination, and he described to me the position as to where he was, which was across and in trajectory of the line of fire, and that he felt that in addition to the assassination that he had gotten the School Book Depository.

I told Mr. Griffin at the time that I had told this man--I can't remember his name, the FBI has gotten it, and at the time I gave it to Mr. Griffin, I told this man on the telephone from Victoria that night that he should send these things, this film, that he said wasn't developed, to the Warren Commission.

He said, that is when he told me that he had contacted his attorney in Victoria and that his attorney's name was Batter, and he spelled it for me, B-a-t-t-e-r, and his attorney had advised him not to send this information to the Warren Commission but to contact someone in Dallas and send it to them.

This man told me that he had read something about my testimony and that he asked me would it be all right for him to send it to me, and I told him, "Yes," and I said I was supposed to go back to the Warren Commission and he could send it to me, and I would make it available for them.

This was just additional information that I told Mr. Griffin that I was---this is an example---- I was there to help them in any way I could.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, the differences in your testimony that Mr. Griffin was discussing

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with you off the record, you have gone into that in detail on the record, haven't you, in your deposition?

Mr. DEAN. Yes; I believe I have, about how Ruby entered the basement or how he told me how he entered the basement. Also that he had thought two nights prior when he saw Lee Oswald on a showup stand with a sarcastic sneer on his face is when he decided if he got the chance he would kill him. This was the thing that I testified in court about. I was cross-examined in court.

Mr. RANKIN. And you have explained all that in your deposition, haven't you?

Mr. DEAN. I believe so; I am not certain.

Mr. RANKIN. And did he ask you about why you didn't have your--this information about his planning to shoot Oswald the night before, or on the Friday----

Mr. DEAN. Now, are you asking did Mr. Griffin ask me why I didn't----

Mr. RANKIN. Why you didn't put it in your February--in your statement before the February 18 one?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir; I believe he did, and I explained to him this wasn't the subject--the subject of that November 26 report was my assignment. I didn't put any of the conversation as to what Mr. Sorrels and I talked to Mr. Ruby about. I did put at the closing paragraph, I think, and I have a copy of it here, that my main concern was how he got into the basement and how long he had been there because I was in charge of the security of the basement.

Mr. RANKIN. So you didn't put it in your prior reports?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir; this was later on. Chief Curry--I think probably it was February 18---and I think I probably wrote it that day, called me to his office and asked me had I heard all the interview of Ruby and Sorrels, and I told him that I did, and he asked me could I remember it pretty well, and I said, "Yes, I believe I can remember most all of it," and that is when Chief Curry told me that, he said, "Well, you are going to have to testify to it because Mr. Sorrels can't because.he says he didn't warn Mr. Ruby when he was questioning him.

Well, this was fine with me. I wrote the report. This was February 18.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you tell Mr. Griffin at that time that you thought it was unimportant or had some other reason for not including it?

Mr. DEAN. I believe that I told him that the investigation, the focal point, was as to how he got into the basement. There was an officer, and I knew who the officer was, I assigned him there myself, and I felt this was more of a part of the investigation in which it was investigated--Officer R. E. Vaughan was investigated as to whether or not he let Ruby into the basement or saw him in the basement, and, of course, he was cleared of this. I know of no--the only information I passed on about that was when Jack Ruby told me how he entered. I told my superiors and then they carried it on from there as far as the investigation.

Mr. RANKIN. And about his planning to shoot him prior to the day that----

Mr. DEAN. Now, this wasn't--the only time that I put that in the report was February 18.

Mr. RANKIN. Yes; did you explain to Mr. Griffin in your prior testimony why you didn't put it in?

Mr. DEAN. I believe that I did; I am not sure.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you want to add anything to that, just anything that you wanted, to the Commission?

The CHAIRMAN. Do you recall whether you were asked that specific question or not, Sergeant? May I ask, Mr. Rankin, was he asked that question, and did he answer it?

Mr. RANKIN. I have to look at the record to be sure.

Mr. Chief Justice, in answer to your question, he was asked about what was the first time that he had given this information and if this was the date. He was not asked for any explanation as to why he didn't give it at any earlier time.

The CHAIRMAN. Then we can't blame him if he didn't answer why.

Mr. RANKIN. No; I just wanted to find out if he wanted to add anything at this time that would complete the record.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes; all right.

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Mr. DEAN. Well, my main concern has been in some way this got out to the papers. The only thing I told the papers was that I can't give any statement. I said I have no comment, and I feel that the accusation started with my denial because I haven't had an opportunity to deny it. The story came out in the papers and it has been on the radio several times, and, in fact, several times since the original, some weeks or so after the paper learned of it of the so-called rift, as they put it.

They had the one side of it that he accused me of lying. He didn't use the word "lie," he just said, "These are false statements, and when you testified in court you testified falsely." He didn't use the word "lying," and a lot of papers have since then used the word "lying."

I feel like the accusation is a lot stronger than my denial because I haven't denied it. I haven't made any statement at all to press or radio or any news media. I just told them it will have to come from the Warren Commission or some other source.

Mr. RANKIN. What I was asking, Sergeant, was whether there is anything that you would like to tell the Commission or add to your testimony about why it wasn't in the earlier statement prior to February 18 that you haven't already told us.

Mr. DEAN. Well, I don't think I would like if I could, I would like to know why Mr. Griffin had accused me of perjury. Of course, this is something for you people to know, but I just--he wouldn't discuss it with me.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, Sergeant, I want to say to you that, of course, without knowing what your conversation was with Mr. Griffin, I have never talked to Mr. Griffin about this. I didn't know that you had this altercation with him, but I want to say this: That so far as the jurisdiction of this Commission is concerned and its procedures, no member of our staff has a right to tell any witness that he is lying or that he is testifying falsely. That is not his business. It is the business of this Commission to appraise the testimony of all the witnesses, and, at the time you are talking about, and up to the present time, this Commission has never appraised your testimony or fully appraised the testimony of any other witness, and furthermore, I want to say to you that no member of our staff has any power to help or injure any witness.

So, so far as that conversation is concerned, there is nothing that will be binding upon this Commission.

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. But, as I say, I don't know what your conversation was with Griffin, but I am just telling you as to what the limitations of the members of our staff are.

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir; thank you. That is about all I had.

Mr. RANKIN. That is all I have, Mr. Chief Justice.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, thank you, Sergeant, for coming and feeling as you do, I am glad you had the frankness to come and talk to the Commission, and offer to testify concerning it.

Mr. DEAN. Thank you. I appreciate the opportunity.

The CHAIRMAN. All right, Sergeant.

Mr. DEAN. Thank you. It is nice to have met you.

Mr. RANKIN. Waggoner, do you want to take the stand for a minute about that conversation?

The CHAIRMAN. You are going to ask the General about it? Have you been sworn?

Waggoner Carr

Page 258

TESTIMONY OF WAGGONER CARR

XII 415-449

TESTIMONY OF PATRICK TREVORE DEAN

The testimony of Patrick Trevore Dean was taken at 8 p.m., on March 24, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me state for the record, first of all, introduce myself. As you probably heard I am Burt Griffin. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel's office of the President's Commission to Investigate the Assassination of President Kennedy. Now, this Commission was set up under an Executive order of President Johnson, dated November 29, 1963, called Executive Order No. 11130. Also pursuant to a joint resolution of Congress. We have adopted a number of rules and so forth which I will explain to you a little bit beforehand, pursuant to all these resolutions, I have been authorized by the General Counsel to take the deposition of Sgt. P. T. Dean, who is right here.

I want to tell you a little bit about the general nature of the inquiry that we are going into here. As the title of the Commission would indicate,

VOICE. I hate to interrupt, but----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Off the record. (Discussion off the record. )

Mr. GRIFFIN. As I say, I want to tell you a little bit about the scope of this inquiry that we are going to go into. We have been authorized to inquire into and evaluate and report to the President on all the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and all the facts surrounding the death of Lee Harvey Oswald.

Calling you, Sergeant Dean, we are particularly interested in the facts that surround the death of Oswald, although we don't mean to preclude any other information that you may have which may pertain to the whole area in which we are going. There has been a written request made to Chief Curry, by the general counsel of our Commission staff, asking that you appear here some time during this particular week. Now, this is not quite in full keeping with the rules that have been set forth by the Commission. Under the rules of the Commission you are entitled to a 3-day written notice prior to having your deposition taken. This is going to be sworn testimony. The rules also provide, however, that you may waive this notice. I want to ask you right now, Sergeant Dean, if you are willing to waive the written 3-day notice which you can require us to give you?

Mr. DEAN. Yes. I will waive it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay. Now, I also want to tell you that you are entitled, under the rules of the Commission to have an attorney present, if you want, and I notice you are not here today with an attorney, and I presume that is your desire, but do you?

Mr. DEAN. I will waive that, also.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay. Now, will you raise your right hand? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth ?

Mr. DEAN. I do.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you state for the record your full name?

Mr. DEAN. Patrick Trevore Dean.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you live?

Mr. DEAN. 2822 Nicholson, Dallas.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Dallas, Tex. ?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where are you employed?

Mr. DEAN. Police department.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Dallas Police Department?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you been with the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. DEAN. 11 years.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And do you hold any particular rank in the department?

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Mr. DEAN. I am a sergeant.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you been a sergeant?

Mr. DEAN. 6 years.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What section were you assigned to in the police department?

Mr. DEAN. Patrol division.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That was on November 22, 23, and 24?

Mr. DEAN. That's correct.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, it's my understanding that you were not on duty on either November 22 or 23?

Mr. DEAN. That's correct.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are these your regular off duty days?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What time did you come to work on Sunday, November 24?

Mr. DEAN. At 7 o'clock.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Prior to the time that you came to work, had you heard anything about the proposed move of Lee Harvey Oswald ?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir; well, before I came to work, no, sir; I hadn't.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Before you came to work did you know that Oswald was going to be moved that day ?

Mr. DEAN. Just rumored that some time during the day that he would be moved.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How had you heard that?

Mr. DEAN. Well, rumors in around city hall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you been around the city hall on the 23d ?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Or the 22d ?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where then did you hear these rumors?

Mr. DEAN. I had just come into town just about the time the President landed on Friday. I had been out to south Texas deer hunting, and that day, I, of course, listened to all the news about the assassination, and also the next day, on the 23d, and then on the 24th at 7 o'clock is when I reported for duty.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, you indicated to me, though, that you had heard rumors around the police station?

Mr. DEAN. This was on the 24th. They had said that sometime during the day that Oswald would be moved. Now, who they are would be in the captain's office, around in the captain's office and in my office.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Referring to that period before you came on duty, had you heard any rumors then?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So when you arrived you didn't have any idea that Oswald was going to be moved that day ?

Mr. DEAN. Repeat it?

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you arrived at 7 o'clock Sunday morning----

Mr. DEAN. Right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You didn't have any idea Oswald was going to be moved that day?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you this: Did you drive down to work that day?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall where you parked your car?

Mr. DEAN. That being Sunday, I believe I parked in the 2100 block of Jackson Street.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And do you recall how you entered the police department building ?

Mr. DEAN. On the Commerce Street side going to the basement. Not into the parking area where the incident occurred, but going into the police and courts building from Commerce Street.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you entered at 7 o'clock--I know it's difficult to pick out what you saw at one time and what you saw at another time. Did you see any TV cables----

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Strung through that entrance?

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Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir; numerous television cables and cameras.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Try to think back as best you can and tell us, as you walked in from Commerce Street, you know, you come down the steps----

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You have to open the door?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And that will take you into the hallway?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That leads to the records room. Now, as you got into that area there where you open up the door and so forth, did you see any TV cables strung through that doorway?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir; I believe there was a lot of TV cable down at the end of the hall there, toward the jail office.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well now, talking now about right up at the----

Mr. DEAN. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did any TV cables come through that Commerce Street entrance?

Mr. DEAN. I don't recall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what did you do when you got inside?

Mr. DEAN. I went immediately to the basement, changed clothes into my uniform and then went to the second floor, which is the patrol captains office, where I report for duty.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who did you report to there?

Mr. DEAN. Captain Talbert.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you have a conversation with Talbert at that time?

Mr. DEAN. Nothing specific; no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Talbert give you an assignment at that time?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Talbert talk to you in anyway about the movement of Oswald at that time?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you learn somewhere after you arrived at work that someone had made a telephone call in connection with the movement of Oswald, threatening Oswald's life?

Mr. DEAN. Yes; did I learn of a telephone call?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. DEAN. I heard Captain Frazier, I believe it was, talking to Captain Talbert, and in my presence, and several others. I don't remember which ones, sergeants and a lieutenant or so, that I believe it was Sheriff Decker called during the night and asked that Oswald be moved during the night sometime.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did this conversation take place; how soon after you came to work?

Mr. DEAN. It was some time--probably it would have been a little before 7 o'clock because we meet downstairs at 7 o'clock sharp.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see.

Mr. DEAN. In the detail room.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So this would have been almost within a few minutes of the time that you had walked in?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, were Talbert and Frazier--and who else was present during the conversation?

Mr. DEAN. I believe Lieutenant Pierce was there, myself and Sergeant Putnam might have been there. Several other sergeants. See, this is the change time and all of his supervisors, Captain Frazier's and Captain Talbert's, the ones that are working that day, they will generally be in the office at that time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Off the record. (Discussion off the record.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. Could you tell me where we were? (The record was here read by the reporter. )

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember any other things that were said? Try to think about what these people said when this topic was brought up.

Mr. DEAN. Captain Frazier said something to the effect that he had called Captain Fritz when Sheriff Decker called to request the movement of Oswald, and

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Captain Fritz stated that he didn't think that Chief Curry wanted him moved during the night, that it was--he would be moved some time this day, that day, rather than in the night. It would be this day. That's where I got it that he was to be moved on the 24th.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I take it that this was sort of changing of the guard at this point, and Frazier was going off duty and he was sort of passing on the word to Talbert?

Mr. DEAN. Right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did Talbert say in response to that information?

Mr. DEAN. I don't remember. The thing that I got, or impression that I got, was that they were just waiting for Chief Curry to say to move him, until they had proper authorization to move him, from our department rather than from the sheriff.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Rio Pierce present at that time?

Mr. DEAN. I think that he was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And it is my understanding of this situation that you had there at that time is Captain Talbert, Lieutenant Pierce and the sergeants that were all under them, kind of a general briefing?

Mr. DEAN. That's correct.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did Talbert then discuss this matter with you people who were on his shift?

Mr. DEAN. Not at this time. We went back downstairs to the basement to the whole detail. This is to assign the patrolmen out on their tour of duty, to brief them of the new orders, if there had been any, and generally to get the men out in the field in the squad cars. This happens at 7 o'clock.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you send all the men out that you normally would send out?

Mr. DEAN. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. At that time?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir; with some few that we would use, the ones of which I can't recall. I imagine it would have been equivalent to three or four men that we would have kept in the city hall itself.

Mr. GRIFFIN. At that time did you have any thought of how you would assemble the necessary men to handle the transfer?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, after you had this initial meeting with Talbert, what did you do?

Mr. DEAN. Now, you are referring to after the detail?

Mr. GRIFFIN. After you assigned these men, and what you called the general orders?

Mr. DEAN. We went back to the second floor, back to Captain Talbert's office, which is the general offices for the patrol division.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What happened up there?

Mr. DEAN. Well, I don't remember anything specific until about--I, myself, went to the third floor to familiarize myself with the happenings, about the news cameramen and just to get an idea of what was going on and who was to be present, such as that, because I had been off. This was my first day back since in a week, in fact. I had been on a few days vacation to go hunting.

Mr. GRIFFIN. At the time you went up to the third floor, did you have any idea as to what your general responsibilities were going to be for the day?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir; not at that time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I think I am misleading you. First of all, you have some general responsibility, standard responsibilities that you have every day?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What are those particular responsibilities?

Mr. DEAN. Well, I am assigned to a zone area that has a group of 6 squads that work for me, equivalent to 15 men.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What zone is that?

Mr. DEAN. No. 110. It's in the eastern portion of Dallas.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that the Love Field area?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir; this is the--Love Field area is north Dallas. I am in the eastern portion of Dallas.

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Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. And do you normally handle most of your duties from right within the police station?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir; I have various paperwork to do in the office at times. Generally I am out in the car, answering calls with the squads, or when they need advice, supervision, well, I generally answer their calls.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, when you met with Talbert the second time upon the second floor, did you have any idea at that time that your duties would be any different on Sunday than they were on any other date?

Mr. DEAN. I assumed that I would probably confine myself to the city hall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to make that assumption?

Mr. DEAN. Well, because of my seniority. It was just assumed that they would want me there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, so you went up to the third floor then?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And who did you talk to and who did you see up there on the third floor?

Mr. DEAN. No one in particular, I just went up to see what was going on on the third floor. This is the first time I had been to the third floor. There were numerous cameras there, lot of cables. Just as you get off the elevator there was a lot of cameras.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What time would you estimate that you were up on the third floor?

Mr. DEAN. Probably 8 o'clock.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you go up to the third floor again during the morning; that is between that time and the time that Oswald was shot, did you have occasion to go back to the third floor?

Mr. DEAN. I believe I did, but for no specific purpose.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, if you can separate out the different times that you might have been up there, I want to know as best you recall whether there were news people up there on the third floor when you went up this first time, around--what did you say, 8 o'clock ?

Mr. DEAN. Yes. Were there news people up there ?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see newspaper people up there at that time?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall whether the TV cameras were manned at that time?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall whether these people seemed to be operating the cameras, shooting footage or did they seem to be in any sort of operation?

Mr. DEAN. They did have a monitor, small monitor set that they had the cameras on. However, they weren't broadcasting at the time. They might have been taping. I don't know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see any other people that you thought were newsmen up there, other than those manning the cameras?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. Pressmen. Newspaper people, none of which I can recall that I knew myself.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What's your best estimate of the number of news people that were up there at about 8 o'clock?

Mr. DEAN. Twenty-five, possibly.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did this create to you what appeared to be a crowded condition?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, how long did you remain up there on the third floor?

Mr. DEAN. Oh, maybe 10 or 15 minutes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And do you recall if you went into the homicide bureau?

Mr. DEAN. Sometime during that morning I did step into the homicide bureau However, I don't know who I talked to. And then there wasn't any specific reason that I did go in there. I just stepped in. The hall was very crowded. It might have been just that I was close to the homicide office and I stepped in there to get out of the crowd, because it was the least congested. There were no newsmen or pressmen in there, no cameras.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you able to tell, when you were up there at about 8 o'clock, what the general impression seemed to be as to when Oswald would be moved?

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Mr. DEAN. The impression I got, there was anticipation from the newsmen that--and the hopes of the newsmen, that he would probably be moved that day.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But as to how early in the day, did you get any idea of what they were thinking of?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir. This was at anytime. This was the impression I got, at anytime he could be moved. They were ready to start shooting, or go live television, I am sure, at anytime, at a moment's notice.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did they ask you any particular questions?

Mr. DEAN. None specific; no, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did they attempt to approach you or shout things at you?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember any other bureaus you went in on the third floor?

Mr. DEAN. That was all.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, where did you go from the third floor?

Mr. DEAN. Went back down to the second floor.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And who did you see down there?

Mr. DEAN. Captain Talbert, Lieutenant Pierce.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember any conversation you had with them?

Mr. DEAN. Well, general conversation that morning was when possibly Oswald might be moved. Of course, I was waiting for instructions as to what to do when he was moved. I received my first instructions about 9 o'clock.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who did you receive those instructions from?

Mr. DEAN. From Lieutenant Pierce.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And do you know who Lieutenant Pierce received his instructions

Mr. DEAN. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did Pierce tell you?

Mr. DEAN. His instructions were for me to take a group of men and--or whatever men I needed, and thoroughly search the garage portion of the basement, to vacate it and then thoroughly search it. I----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you--go ahead.

Mr. DEAN. I took about 13 reserve officers that were waiting in the assembly room, which is on the ground floor, the basement floor, along with Sergeant Putnam, Officer L. E. Jez, and A. R. Brock, and these 13 reserves that were in the detail room at that time, names of which I don't know. They were commanded by Captain Arnett. I do know this. And Captain Arnett assisted in the search, too. We vacated the basement of all people.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Are you talking about just the garage area or the entire basement?

Mr. DEAN. The garage area. And I assigned Officer R. E. Vaughn to the entrance ramp, which is entering on Main Street, Officer R. C. Nelson to the doorway coming from the police and court building and into the basement, and Officer B. G. Patterson the Commerce Street ramp, which is the exit, and I assigned one reserve officer to the southern portion of the basement, to the stairways that lead into the subbasement or the machine room.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, the regular officers that you assigned were Vaughn, Nelson, and Patterson, is that right?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were any of those men members of your platoon ?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir; all of them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did they happen to be in the building at that time?

Mr. DEAN. I believe they were the officers that we retained that morning to assist us for whatever might have to be done in the morning, or during the day.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did they normally have assignments in patrol cars some place?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir; all of them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who made the decision to keep those men in?

Mr. DEAN. I would imagine Lieutenant Pierce. To retain them at city hall during the day?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. DEAN. I imagine Lieutenant Pierce did.

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Mr. GRIFFIN. Can I ask you directly, you did not, if I understand correctly, you did not make that decision?

Mr. DEAN. To retain them at the city hall?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. DEAN. No, sir; they were there and I utilized them for this purpose.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, were there other people who were retained at city hall besides those three men in the platoon?

Mr. DEAN. There were other men that were called back in from patrol duty to supplement what men we had at the central headquarters.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But these were the only three men who actually stayed back and never went out to the field at all?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Any particular reason that you can think of why those three men should have been kept there?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir; other than just assignment, routine assignment. I mean it could have been someone else as well as it was them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you assigned reserve officers--somebody, rather----

Mr. DEAN. To the southern portion of the basement?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why did you put a guard on that door, or in that area?

Mr. DEAN. For security reasons.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any reason to think that it would be possible to get through from the subbasement?

Mr. DEAN. Well, I knew that there were doors going into the subbasement from--however, I checked them and they were locked, but still there was a possibility, since you did have doors there, or ingress from the street.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know where the ingress from the street to the subbasement is?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir; as you enter on Commerce Street, going down into the basement, there is a door on the southern side of the--just before you go into the main part of the basement, that leads down. It's the porters' quarters, that leads down to the porters' quarters.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there any other entrance into that subbasement?

Mr. DEAN. The elevators in the new city hall is the only ones that you can get in, is the only place, other than the ramp--we had all places covered. In fact, I assigned----

Mr. GRIFFIN. No. I am talking about the subbasement now.

Mr. DEAN. The garage portion?

Mr. GRIFFIN. That's right.

Mr. DEAN. No, sir; there is no other place.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Other than that door that comes into Commerce Street?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir; well, there is a door that was locked, another door that's used as a--oh, I think they sometimes throw materials--it's not even an elevator. It appears to be an elevator door, if you open it up, it's a straight drop into the subbasement.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where is that?

Mr. DEAN. I had the maintenance man open this door for me. He did and I could see that you couldn't--or it would be hard for a man to climb up a straight wall to open these doors. You couldn't open them from the inside or the subbasement side of the door.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you have a clear recollection as to whether or not any TV or radio or other wires came through the subbasement door up to the basement area in the garage?

Mr. DEAN. There were none coming out. From the subbasement into the garage area?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. DEAN. There were not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there any TV or radio or other wires coming into the garage area other than through the ramps?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you give these people you stationed in the garage area,

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Nelson and the reserve officer and--who was it that you stationed--did you station somebody by the elevators at that time?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir; Brock.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Those three men, did you give them any specific instructions?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What were those instructions?

Mr. DEAN. That they were to let no one in other than--well, first that they were to let no one in until we had completely searched the basement, and then that we would notify them after we had completed the search, and then they were to let no one in except authorized pressmen, properly identified pressmen, newsmen, or policemen.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have some reason to think that those people might be coming through the entranceways that they were guarding?

Mr. DEAN. Did I have some reason to think this?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. DEAN. It was strictly security. I was doing exactly what my orders were, to keep all people out. As far as any reason other than strictly security; no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What I am suggesting, really, is that you could have given them a blanket order, "Don't let anybody in there" ?

Mr. DEAN. That's right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Any reason why you didn't give them that blanket order? Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where were we?

(The record was here read by the reporter. )

Mr. DEAN. To just let no one in?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. DEAN. Well, just a moment. Let me--I knew that the pressmen--I am wondering where I--it was just generally assumed to me that the pressmen would be allowed to witness the movement of Oswald.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But from these doors, now, the men that were on the ramps, of course, you would expect an influxion of people down those ramps, but from those interior doors in the garage, I am wondering what expectation you could have that anybody would be coming through there? I am not asking this question to try to trip you up or anything like that, but I am just wondering if you thought about this? You might think of something that you had in mind that might shed some light on this.

Mr. DEAN. No, sir; the only thing, I was searching the basement and to do this I had to clear the basement to satisfy myself that there was no one in the basement, and after I was satisfied with this, then the press and the police officers could come back in the basement, if they were properly identified.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you instructed Nelson and Brock and the reserve officer, were Vaughn and Patterson also present?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Of course, they were guarding the ramps?

Mr. DEAN. Right. Patterson, Vaughn were guarding the ramps, and that was my instructions to them, to keep everyone out until we had completed the search. Then after we had completed the search, to let no one in other than properly identified pressmen or policemen, and to not to leave those assignments unless they were relieved by myself or Sergeant Putnam.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, can you give us some idea of how many cars there were in the garage at that time ?

Mr. DEAN. Some, I would say 25 or 30.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were these cars eventually moved out at any time?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir; some few of them were district squad cars that had come in with prisoners, and then, of course, they left, but as a mass movement to move the cars out, we didn't.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who checked the stairway door in the garage that leads up into the municipal building?

Mr. DEAN. The stairway door?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

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Mr. DEAN. I don't know of any door that leads up into the--the stairway?

Mr. GRIFFIN. There is a stairway----

Mr. DEAN. That goes down into the subbasement?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well now, over where the elevators are

Mr. DEAN. Oh. Oh, yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You know what I am talking about?

Mr. DEAN. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who checked that door?

Mr. DEAN. Sergeant Putnam checked it once and I checked it once and it was locked.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know at the time you checked it that even though the door was locked from the outside, it could be opened from the inside?

Mr. DEAN. [No response.]

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me state this again. Even though the door would be locked from the garage side, that from the stairway side it would be unlocked; were you aware of that?

Mr. DEAN. I believe we asked the maintenance man about this, and I believe he locked it so as it couldn't be unlocked from either side unless they had a key. I believe Sergeant Putnam called this to the maintenance man's attention, and I recall being there at the time they were discussing it, and I think at that time the maintenance man locked the door so it couldn't be unlocked from either side other than with a key.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall the name of this maintenance man?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir; I don't know. I didn't know his name to start with. However, I did know he was the maintenance man, by sight.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you get ahold of this maintenance man?

Mr. DEAN. Sergeant Putnam, I believe, had gotten--or had thought about this and asked him, or he had gotten in touch with him some way.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this at the same time you had the 13 men in the garage searching, or at some later time?

Mr. DEAN. This was during the search.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And do you know where this maintenance man was located----

Mr. DEAN. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When Putnam found him?

Mr. DEAN. I don't. I do know I sent for him one time, or had an officer to go page the maintenance man to meet me, to have him unlock this door in question, that I thought--or I wanted it opened so I could see in it, to see if it was a service elevator or what. I had never seen that door opened before.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you make any inquiries about the passenger elevators?

Mr. DEAN. Coming into the garage portion?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. DEAN. Yes; they were operating at the time. I think there were two colored boys that were operating the elevators, and we told them not to come down to the basement for any reason. And we posted Brock there at the elevators.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, so that we understand what we are talking about, my recollection is that there is another elevator that's a service elevator also?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. This was the one that was operating, primarily, that morning.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I think we can help things out here somewhat. This is a diagram of the basement area, and I am going to mark this "Dallas, Tex., Sergeant Dean, March 24, 1964, Exhibit 5007."

Now, making reference, Sergeant, to this particular diagram here, at the time you searched the garage, it is my understanding that what's marked on here as elevators Nos. 1 and 2 were operable, that there were some colored boys in there, or somebody who was operating those elevators?

Mr. DEAN. No. I believe those were not in operation, Nos. 1 and 2. The service elevator was, I do know. There was the parking attendant, a colored boy, and he sits here [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don't you put a mark on that diagram there, make it an X?

Mr. DEAN. All right [indicating].

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Mr. GRIFFIN. And do you want to label that parking attendant, or whatever you think is appropriate?

Mr. DEAN. All right [indicating], this is a colored boy that usually sits here. He has a bench there he sits on until he is needed. We made him leave.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Made him leave?

Mr. DEAN. In fact, I think he was relieved from duty that day, because I took him out of the Commerce Street ramp.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And was there somebody operating that service elevator?

Mr. DEAN. The service elevator?

Mr. GRIFFIN. How many people were in that service elevator?

Mr. DEAN. There was one. When I said two persons I was thinking of the elevator operator, which is also a colored boy, and the parking attendant.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you want to just put an X on the service elevator, to indicate there was somebody in there?

Mr. DEAN. All right, sir [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you want to place a mark at approximately the place that you stationed the men who were guarding the entrance to the subbasement, this reserve officer?

Mr. DEAN. Oh, the subbasement. Let me see [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me explain this diagram to you. This is the basement, this dotted line here is the upstairs [indicating].

Mr. DEAN. Oh, I see.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This actually goes under the sidewalk here [indicating].

Mr. DEAN. This is where the reserve officer was [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, where did you station Brock?

Mr. DEAN. Put him in a position that he could see this door here and also these three elevators [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, who else did you station in the basement?

Mr. DEAN. No One well, Nelson was--let's see, Nelson was here [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. And where did you place Vaughn and where did you place Patterson?

Mr. DEAN. Is this the exit proper, door, here to the--[indicating]?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. This would be the top of the ramp here [indicating].

Mr. DEAN. All right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, you want to sign this down here and mark on there the time, sign it there and then in the middle of the diagram, so it doesn't confuse things here, put the well, sign it over under here. If we put time in here, somebody may think that was the time that you made the mark on here. Then if you would label this status of basement, whenever it was that--[ indicating].

Mr. DEAN. During the search?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. DEAN. [Indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay. Very good. Now, you have marked on here approximately 9:15 to 9:30 a.m. I am not going to ask you what you found there and so forth, because you have made a full statement on it. We know, for example, you found a rifle in the back of one of the police cars?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, after the search was completed, where did you go?

Mr. DEAN. The pressmen were allowed to come back in.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you this, where had they been removed to?

Mr. DEAN. Into the police court building, or the basement.

Mr. GRIFFIN. By the records room?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. And they were allowed back in the basement?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What is your best estimate of the number of policemen that came back into the basement?

Mr. DEAN. Well, of course, it increased as the time went on, so it would be hard to----

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Mr. GRIFFIN. How many newspapermen did you have to clear out of the basement at 9:15, approximately?

Mr. DEAN. Oh, approximately 15 or 20, maybe 25.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you went down into the basement, before the search, were there any TV cameras down there?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir; I believe there was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you want to indicate on the map here where it is that you think the TV cameras, or camera was placed ?

Mr. DEAN. [Indicating.]

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall if there was a TV camera at this location [indicating] ?

Mr. DEAN. I believe there was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I am referring, so that the record will reflect this, to a TV camera that's in the entranceway from the ramp, towards the jail office, and it's on the Commerce Street wall, along the Commerce Street wall. Did you move that TV camera at that time ?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir. Moved the operators away from it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what did you do after that, after you completed the search and let the people back into the basement?

Mr. DEAN. Let me think. I believe I stayed in the basement area.

Mr. GRIFFIN. At the time that you completed the search, had you heard anything about the time that Oswald would be moved?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you heard anything about the route that he would be moved by?

Mr. DEAN. At the time----

Mr. GRIFFIN. That you completed the search?

Mr. DEAN. Yes. About, somewhere around 9:45, Captain Talbert sent me a group of regular officers that had been called in off of patrol district. [Indicating.]

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, can I help you?

Mr. DEAN. My report [indicating]?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes [indicating].

Mr. DEAN. I didn't have in my original report, I do have in my original notes in my locker, as to some traffic assignments that I made. This was about 9:45. These men were sent to me by Captain Talbert. I briefed them about here in the basement, away from everyone, to let no one know the route. This is when Captain Talbert advised me that the route would be to leave the Commerce Street side, go to the expressway, north to Main [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that Pearl Expressway or Central Expressway?

Mr. DEAN. Central Expressway. And then west on Main to the county courthouse, or the sheriff's office.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me try to refresh your recollection a little bit here. Up to this point had you heard anything about a proposed route that would have gone from Central Expressway and turned at Elm Street, rather than Main Street?

Mr. DEAN. I was thinking it was--I knew that they changed it, after I made my assignment I had to change them again, because they said they wasn't going to use it. It was either Main Street that they weren't going to use, they were going to Commerce--however, I think you are right. I think originally my assignments were made at the intersections--not Commerce, but Elm, and then they changed the--they being Captain Talbert, and told me that they would not use Elm, that they would use Main Street.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you draw a big circle in this area where you instructed these men, to show roughly what area the men covered, and would you put an appropriate note on there as to what happened and what time?

Mr. DEAN. [Indicating.]

Mr. GRIFFIN. About how many men did you give instructions to?

Mr. DEAN. 13, 15.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don't you just put that number there?

Mr. DEAN. [Indicating.]

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did those men then take police vehicles and go to their appointed spots?

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Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. Immediately to their squad cars that had been parked outside and then--they reported into the basement to me for these assignments, they went immediately to these assignments, and these assignments were made at various intersections along the proposed route that Oswald would be transferred.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, was Brock in the basement at the time that you gave that assignment?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. However, he was still at the elevators then.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Patterson and Vaughn?

Mr. DEAN. They were at their stations.

Mr. GRIFFIN. After you made those assignments, what did you do?

Mr. DEAN. I moved back to the area, when you come out of the jail office, to the ramp, and this is when Lieutenant Pierce came up to me and appeared to be in a hurry--well now, the armored car had already backed into the ramp.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. How much before----

Mr. DEAN. This armored car had backed into the ramp as I was standing here [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let's place these times a little bit. How long was it between the time that you instructed these 13 to 15 men to go on their posts and the time that the armored car arrived?

Mr. DEAN. Oh, 10 minutes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don't put down here where you made that note, about 10 minutes before armored car arrived?

Mr. DEAN. [Indicating.]

Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay. Now, how much time elapsed between the time you made assignment to these men and the time that you searched the basement?

Mr. DEAN. Fifteen or twenty minutes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Right. Why don't you put down here then 15 or 20 minutes before assignment to Elm Street?

Mr. DEAN. Elm Street?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. DEAN. [Indicating.]

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, I understand about the time that the armored car arrived, or was it shortly after the armored car arrived, you had a conversation with Lieutenant Pierce?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How much after the armored car arrived would you say that conversation occurred?

Mr. DEAN. Five minutes after the armored car arrived.

Mr. GRIFFIN. We don't need to mark that. And this conversation with Lieutenant Pierce occurred in the entranceway, off the Main Street ramp toward the jail office?

Mr. DEAN. Right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was anybody else there when you talked with Pierce?

Mr. DEAN. There were several people around, but they didn't hear his instructions to me, I am sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. What did Pierce tell you?

Mr. DEAN. He said for me to go to the armored car, to the rear of the armored car, and to get him two men to go with him, and he said, "Now." Sergeant Putnam was maybe 15 or 20 feet from me, and I instructed him to get an unassigned man immediately and to go with Lieutenant Pierce, and Lieutenant Pierce, by this time, of course, he was going to get his car, or walking over to his car. Sergeant Putnam got--told Sergeant Maxey to go with him, and those three got into Lieutenant Pierce's car with Lieutenant Pierce driving, and I went to the rear of the armored car that had backed in, which was some, I guess 30 feet, 30 to 35 feet from where the shooting was. This armored car backed down, and I imagine it would probably be around 30 to 35 feet. As soon as I got to the armored car I turned around and looked back, and this is when I saw Lieutenant Pierce in this plain black car trying to get past the newsmen and to go out the wrong way.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Up the Main Street ramp?

Mr. DEAN. Right.

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Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, is my understanding correct that from the time that you placed your guards in the basement and then began the search, until Pierce's car drove up the ramp, you did not leave the basement area?

Mr. DEAN. That's right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, as you saw Pierce's car go out of the--move out of the garage area, who was in that car?

Mr. DEAN. Sergeant Maxey and Sergeant Putnam, Lieutenant Pierce was driving it. I do recall that Sergeant Putnam had to get out of the car and tell some people to move out of the way so they could drive out.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, where did he get out of the car?

Mr. DEAN. Just as they were turning from the basement to go up the ramp, about this location [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see him get back in the car?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you see him get back in the car?

Mr. DEAN. Same place.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So when he drove through this next line of newsmen, when the car went through this next line of newsmen, is it your recollection that Sergeant Putnam was back in the car, or did he follow the car up ahead and clear these others?

Mr. DEAN. I believe he walked on up for a few steps, not too far, and then when he did see that the way was clear he got into the car then, but he did get out of the car to clear the way for the car to move out of the basement.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Now, did you watch him go out of the ramp up there?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you see what he did when he got to the top of the ramp?

Mr. DEAN. I couldn't see to the top of the ramp. It's obscured, from where I was. I was halfway up this ramp and I couldn't see to the top of the ramp.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you watch him, though, go up until you lost sight of him.

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, during the period that you were looking toward Putnam's car, were you able to see the people behind the car in this particular--across the Main Street ramp?

Mr. DEAN. Just as a group. I mean as a group of people.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see anybody in that group that you recognized?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see any police officers that you recognized there, other than Putnam?

Mr. DEAN. None that I paid any attention to. I mean if I had noticed them I could have probably seen someone that I recognized.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. Now, of course, you have known Jack Ruby for 4 or 5 years?

Mr. DEAN. I have known Jack Ruby since, I believe 19-- the early part of 1960 or the early part of 1961. It was the time that I came downtown from Oak Cliff, as a sergeant. I met him. Now, the record, or your report from the FBI says that I had known him since 1959, which is erroneous.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay. We will do that at the end of the deposition, because I want to get that straightened out.

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But you knew Ruby well enough so that you would recognize him on sight?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you see Ruby in that area there?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, after you lost sight of Pierce's car going up the ramp, what did you do?

Mr. DEAN. Well, my attention was focused to this point, because this was a tense time, and I was, of course, watching the exit here from the jail office [indicating].

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Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you watch how the security developed along in here; what the officers did to maintain security along here [indicating] ?

Mr. DEAN. I knew that they had just lined up. However, I didn't pay any attention particularly to this at the time. I knew that Oswald was, in all probability, going to be brought out pretty soon.

Mr. GRIFFIN. As you looked toward the Main Street ramp and saw the newsmen re-form along there, can you recall how deep this line of newsmen was? Do you understand what I mean by how deep?

Mr. DEAN. You mean lengthwise?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. DEAN. It was probably going to about somewhere along here. They were all trying to be within view of the----[indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there just a single line along there or were there four of five or six different lines; you know, four or five behind each other, or how many?

Mr. DEAN. I know there was a double line and possibly some were standing behind them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, had you given any instructions prior to the time that Rio Pierce's car went up the ramp, to any men as to how to maintain security along this line of newsmen ?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir; I hadn't. The majority of those, I think, were detectives or plainclothesmen.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know if anybody had responsibility for giving instructions to that group?

Mr. DEAN. To my knowledge, I don't know of anyone. I am sure that they did, but I don't know who did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you receive instructions from anybody concerning how to maintain security along the path from the jail office door to the car that Oswald would be loaded into?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir; at one time I know that there were several cameras set up in this area, and Chief Batchelor told them that they would have to leave this area and move to the basement area. I was present during Chief Batchelor's--or when he told these TV men to move out of that area, inside the jail office, that----

Mr. GRIFFIN. TV cameras inside the jail office?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir; and lights set up. This was, I believe, before the search or shortly after the search. I am thinking it was shortly after the search, that these men were told to move out of this area and move their cameras and equipment out into the garage portion of the basement.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, sergeant, did there come a time when you learned that the route was being changed?

Mr. DEAN. The route to the sheriff's office?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. DEAN. This was--I believe I received both of those instructions when I assigned those men. I had already assigned--well, I do know that I had already assigned all these men along this traffic route, and then it had been changed. Captain Talbert said, "No; they are not going to use Main Street--or Elm Street. They are going to use Main," I believe.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you learn this after you had already sent the men out?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, is there anything that makes you sure about that?

Mr. DEAN. Because I reassigned them, at the same time I briefed them, and made these other assignments. I learned that the route had been changed, and I reassigned them, at the same time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you assign a man to the corner of Main and Pearl Expressway ?

Mr. DEAN. Yes; I know that I did, but I can't recall who it was. I have that information in my locker, my original assingments.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it you have a lot of notes in your locker, or you have some notes?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir; at a later time I will bring those to you, if you like.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I would very much appreciate it. Do you want to make a note

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of that? If you send them over to us tomorrow, I would appreciate that very much.

Mr. DEAN. Tomorrow?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; and we don't need the originals if you want to----

Mr. DEAN. No; you can have them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, what did you do after you saw Pierce's car go up the ramp ?

Mr. DEAN. I stood at the rear of the armored car and watched--my attention was focused to this point here, to the exit from the jail office, or the corridor here. I noticed that these two plain cars had pulled up behind, or in my same direction, and I assumed that these two cars would be loaded with officers that would follow the armored car. However, they hadn't loaded. They were pulling into position here and had gotten into position when all the confusion started [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me interrupt your train of thought here. In looking at this map, it occurs to me that we don't have Nelson marked on this map [indicating].

Mr. DEAN. Nelson is here [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. Oh, okay; now, do you know if Brock was pulled off this station at anytime prior to the shooting of Oswald?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir; he was told to stay there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But you don't know of your own knowledge

Mr. DEAN. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Whether he was there at that time?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, as the two police cars moved into position on the Commerce Street ramp behind the armored car, what happened, what did you see happen and what did you do?

Mr. DEAN. I heard someone say, "Here he comes, they are bringing him out." Of course, you could hear voices, loud voices, or excitement, and then I saw a man just dart in--this was during all the confusion, before the shooting, but I do recall seeing a man dart out. I couldn't tell who he was. It was that fast [witness snaps fingers].

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did he seem to dart from?

Mr. DEAN. From the rail over here. The side-- just dart out from a group of people that were standing against the rail facing the exit [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Can you mark there with an "X" and a circle around it, approximately where he was and how close he was to this railing? Do you think he was right on the railing or [indicating]----

Mr. DEAN. Well, the railing--you have a curb there and then I don't recall how wide that curb is, but the railing, you can lean against standing on the ramp itself [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; how far would you say he was from that railing?

Mr. DEAN. I would say he was up against the railing.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, is that the man that shot Oswald?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don't you put a circle and an "X" down there and write Ruby?

Mr. DEAN. [Indicating.]

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, where was "Blackie" Harrison standing ?

Mr. DEAN. I didn't recognize or didn't notice "Blackie" Harrison. I do recall now and I know where he was standing, next to him, from films I have seen since then. However, I didn't even know he was there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, as I understand from your statement, and interrupt me if I am incorrect, when you saw Ruby shoot Oswald, you moved toward the struggle and then Ruby was taken into the jail office, and did you follow them on in ?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. I ran immediately, jumped over these cars, or one of them, jumped over the hood of it, over the top of it, and they were dragging--Ruby and several detectives that were subduing him were about at the door, or [indicating]----

Mr. GRIFFIN. I had just as soon not have you mark at this point.

Mr. DEAN. Okay.

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Mr. GRIFFIN. I understand why you want to, but----

Mr. DEAN. All right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you hear, between the time that you saw Ruby move toward Oswald and the time that you reached him, did you hear anything said?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what did you do when you reached Ruby?

Mr. DEAN. Well, I ran to assist, whatever I could do, or assist the officers, not knowing exactly what had happened--or I knew that there had been a shooting. However, they had enough men that were subduing him, and I asked the question, when they had him on the floor inside the jail office, "Who in the world is it?" And----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Couldn't you tell by looking at him?

Mr. DEAN. No; at the time I couldn't see him because there were so many over him. And they were well, his face was hidden from me by the amount of officers that were around him. I said, "Who in the world is it?" And evidently I was talking loud over all the other voices, and evidently Ruby heard me and said, "I am Jack Ruby. You all know me."

Mr. GRIFFIN. And how long did you remain with Jack Ruby there in the jail office?

Mr. DEAN. I immediately walked around to where Oswald was laying.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And how long did you remain there where Oswald was?

Mr. DEAN. Oh, maybe less than a minute. I saw that the doctor--there was an emergency doctor working on him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you go from there?

Mr. DEAN. I went back out to the basement, out to where the shooting happened.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do out there?

Mr. DEAN. I was trying to keep all the people in. I heard Captain Talbert say, "Don't let anyone out." And I was echoing his instructions to the men on the ramp, to not let anyone in or out, no one.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did there come a time while you were down there in the basement that you were interviewed by TV men?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir; that was after I had--just some few minutes, I don't know, that several newsmen had--or did interview me, yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember which TV station that was?

Mr. DEAN. Tom Pettit is with NBC, I believe. I did know one of the local men, Bob Huffaker. He is with KRLD-TV. But there were several. I don't know----

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, there was also a time, undoubtedly, that you were interviewed, or somebody quoted you in the newspapers, and there was a great to-do about this, as I understand, in the police department. Somebody claimed----

Mr. DEAN. Misquoted me, yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, was that at this particular TV interview; was that when you made the statement?

Mr. DEAN. The newspaper article that appeared, the news or the writer of that story told me that he wrote that story from my initial interview that was given shortly after the shooting, yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you recall talking with that man down there?

Mr. DEAN. The man that wrote the----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. DEAN. No, sir. I wouldn't know him by sight now.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall ever seeing that man ?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, after you had this TV interview, what did you do?

Mr. DEAN. I went to the third floor.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And where did you go on the third floor?

Mr. DEAN. Just as I got off of the elevator Chief Curry approached me, along with another man. He introduced him very quickly as Forrest V. Sorrels, with the Secret Service, or head of the Secret Service here in Dallas, gave me his keys to the outer door that has--or access to the jail elevator, told me to take Mr. Sorrels to the fifth floor to talk to Ruby.

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Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, between the time that you left the jail office----

Mr. DEAN. All right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And you went into the basement area and had the TV interview and then went up to the third floor, did you talk with any of the police officers who had been down there in the basement area?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. While you were in the jail office, before you came out, did you talk to any of the officers who were there, who were in the jail office; did you talk with them?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, why were you going up to the third floor?

Mr. DEAN. I was going to Captain Fritz' office.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And what were you going to do up there?

Mr. DEAN. I was just going to see if Jack Ruby was in Captain Fritz' office, or whether he was taken immediately to the jail. I didn't know where he was taken to.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why did you want to go up to see Jack Ruby?

Mr. DEAN. To see if they were--this was in my mind, to see if they were going to go ahead and identify him, because I knew other pressmen and other people were going to be asking me, since I had this interview, and see if--did he want me to go ahead and identify him or do what I did in the initial interview, say that this information will have to come from Captain Fritz' office. It really wasn't significant. I knew that I would be talked to at later times all during the day and pressed for the identity of this man, and I wanted to ask them there did they want us to release it or want them to keep it and release it themselves.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You had already told the newsmen?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. I had already told the newsmen this. I didn't identify the man.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You had already told the newsmen that the man who shot Oswald was Ruby?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir. I didn't. I didn't identify the man. They asked me did I recognize this man. I said "Yes." And they asked me could I tell them who he was, and I said I had rather not, and I did not identify him as Ruby. I identified him as a businessman in the city of Dallas, but I did tell them that I recognized the man by sight.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you got up on the third floor, where did you see Chief Curry?

Mr. DEAN. Just as I got off of the elevator.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you ask him to discuss this problem with you?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir. He immediately introduced--said, "This is Mr. Forrest V. Sorrels, head of the Secret Service in Dallas, and take my keys and take him to the fifth floor to interview Ruby."

Mr. GRIFFIN. You got up to the fifth floor, who was with Ruby?

Mr. DEAN. Detective Archer, D. R. Archer, Detective T. D. McMillon and Detective B. S. Clardy is the three, and that's the only three I can recall standing there. I think that was all that was with him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there a jailer there?

Mr. DEAN. Not standing there necessarily by him. There, of course, are jailers all over the floor, and you know, there were not particularly around him though. The only ones I can recall standing close to Ruby was those three detectives.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What state of dress or undress was Ruby in at that time?

Mr. DEAN. He was stripped to his shorts.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what did you do when you got up there?

Mr. DEAN. I walked immediately to him. I heard--well, immediately I told him, I said, "This is Mr. Forrest V. Sorrels"--started the introduction, and Ruby stopped me and he said, "I know who he is. He is with the FBI." Mr. Sorrels then informed him. He said, "No. I am not with the FBI. I am with the Secret Service." And then he again told him, "I want you to know that I am not with the FBI. I am with the Secret Service." And so Ruby said

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something to the effect, "Well, I knew that you were working for the Government."

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember Ruby making any remark to Sorrels to the effect, "Are you with the newspapermen"?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. I recall most all of that conversation.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us what that conversation was.

Mr. DEAN. After Sorrels had identified himself as a Secret Service man, he said, "I want to ask you some questions." And then Ruby asked him, "Is this for the magazines or press?" And he said, "No. It's for my information, as an agent." And he said, "Okay. I will answer all your questions."

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember any discussion with him, anything Sorrels said about his acquaintanceship in the Jewish community?

Mr. DEAN. Sorrels asked him first, I believe----

Mr. GRIFFIN. No. I am not making myself clear. I am sorry. Did Sorrels say anything to Ruby about Sorrels' acquaintanceship among the Jewish merchants, that you recall?

Mr. DEAN. No. I don't--seems like he said something, that he had--that he knew some Jewish--I don't recall exactly what, but relative to what you are asking, he did say something about he was acquainted with some person that was a Jew, something to that effect.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you acquainted with the name of a guy named Honest Joe?

Mr. DEAN. Right. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us what you remember about that.

Mr. DEAN. Well, he said, "Well, I know Honest Joe or"--In other words, the only thing that I got out of that was that he knew Honest Joe. This wasn't relative to what I wanted to find out from Ruby, and I just disregarded this from my mind.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did this take place inside the jail cell?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir. He was in the hallway or the corridor outside a jail cell. He hadn't been placed in a cell.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And were Archer, Clardy, and McMillon around during this conversation ?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. I think they stood there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And how long would you say that Sorrels talked with Ruby?

Mr. DEAN. Oh, 10 minutes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you remember anything that Sorrels learned from Ruby?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us what that was?

Mr. DEAN. Yes. He asked him what possessed him to do it. Of course, I have testified to all this in court. And he said that he was---had been despondent over the assassination of the President, also Officer Tippit, and that he was a very emotional man, and that out of grief for both these people, was one of the motivations, and that he couldn't see any reason for a long and lengthy trial, even though he believed in due process of law.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he talk with Sorrels at all at that time about how he got into the basement?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir. I asked him--Sorrels didn't ask any questions relative to that. I did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long after Sorrels finished talking with Ruby did you ask that question?

Mr. DEAN. Immediately. After Mr. Sorrels said, "Okay. Thank you." And I don't recall whether Mr. Sorrels stayed there or whether he walked off.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who else was present when you asked Ruby that question?

Mr. DEAN. I think McMillon and them were still there. I just really didn't--I knew that I wasn't by myself with him. I knew that there was someone there and I believe it was McMillon and Archer that had stayed there. I am not sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What else did you talk with Ruby about, after Sorrels finished talking to him?

Mr. DEAN. After Sorrels finished, I said, "Ruby, I want to ask you a couple of questions myself." And he said, "All right." I said, "How did you get in the

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basement?" And he said, "I walked in the Main Street ramp." And he told me, he said, "I have just been to the Western Union to mail a money order to Fort Worth." And he said, "I walked from the Western Union to the ramp." And he said, "I saw Sam Pierce--" and he referred to him as Sam Pierce--"drive out of the basement. At that time, at the time the car drove out is when I walked in."

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there a Sam Pierce on the force?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. He is a lieutenant. He is here tonight.

Mr. GRIFFIN. His name is also Rio Pierce?

Mr. DEAN. Lt. Rio S. Pierce, yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Does he go by the name Sam?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Does he also go by the name Rio?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is one used----

Mr. DEAN. Just as much as the other. Depends on who met him under which name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, what else did he talk to you about at that particular time?

Mr. DEAN. After he answered that question, I said, "How long had you been in the basement when Oswald came into your view?" And he said, "I just walked in. I just walked to the bottom of the ramp when he came out."

Mr. GRIFFIN. What else did you talk to him about at that time?

Mr. DEAN. That's all. I heard all of Sorrels' questions and I heard all of Ruby's answers.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, as far as the questioning of Sorrels is concerned, did you testify to that at the Ruby trial?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, after you finished this conversation with Ruby about how he got down into the basement, what did you do?

Mr. DEAN. Caught the elevator back down to the basement and got my gun that had been taken there by a patrolman. If I am not mistaken, I rode down on the same elevator with Mr. Sorrels, and then I went back up to the third floor to Chief Curry's office and took him his keys that he had given me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What were the keys to?

Mr. DEAN. They were well, it was a keyring with a lot of keys on it, but he had given me these to gain entrance to the door that's always locked on the third floor of the jail elevator.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And then how long did you stay down there with Chief Curry?

Mr. DEAN. Just long enough to give him his keys.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you go after that?

Mr. DEAN. [No response.]

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you go back to homicide?

Mr. DEAN. No; I didn't go back to homicide. I don't remember whether I went back to the basement--I believe that I did, went back to the basement to see how things were down there. And, of course, a great number of people had left the basement, and I assume were en route or were going to the Parkland Hospital to check on--since the focal point had gone to Parkland Hospital, I assumed that's where all these people had gone.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you tell Chief Curry what Ruby had told you?

Mr. DEAN. At that time; no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do, now, after you went down to the first floor, the basement, you say; what did you do then?

Mr. DEAN. Well, I don't remember exactly what I did. I did go to Parkland Hospital and I got there before Oswald was pronounced dead, which I think was at 1:07, wasn't it? Somewhere around 1 o'clock?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. DEAN. Yes; anyhow, I stayed at Parkland Hospital and----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who did you see out at Parkland Hospital?

Mr. DEAN. Well, I talked to Lee Harvey Oswald's mother, and in fact, I had taken her along with some--I assumed some Secret Service men, I assumed they were Secret Service men that were with her when I started talking to her. I

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went in with her into view the body, her and Marina Oswald, to view the body of Lee.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did somebody assign you to go out to Parkland Hospital?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to go out there?

Mr. DEAN. To check on the condition of Oswald. I knew that--well, it was just reaction for me to go out there, because I knew that I would probably be needed out there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you check in with Captain Talbert before you went out?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir; I did check out with the dispatcher on the radio, that I was en route to Parkland Hospital.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Lieutenant Pierce, did, you check out with him?

Mr. DEAN. I think when I got to Parkland Hospital I called him and advised him that I would be at Parkland until I notified him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you got out to Parkland Hospital and before you saw Mrs. Oswald, Marguerite Oswald, did you talk with any police officers?

Mr. DEAN. At Parkland?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. DEAN. Well, I am sure that I talked to some. Nothing specific or no orders given, no assignments or anything. I was, more than anything, I was answering questions as to what happened in the basement, from everyone, even policemen and everyone else.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you tell them about the conversation you had with Ruby?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why not?

Mr. DEAN. I just didn't tell anyone about it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, where did you find Marguerite Oswald?

Mr. DEAN. She was waiting in a room just out of the emergency room there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember what Secret Service agents were with her at that time?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you wait with Marguerite in that room with the Secret Service agents?

Mr. DEAN. No. That's--shortly after I went in to where Marguerite and Marina were, Marguerite wanted to see the body, and they tried to explain to her that they really hadn't gotten him in shape to view yet. He just came out of the operating room, and she said, well, she wanted to see him then, and she more or less was directing her statements and demands to me, since I was the only uniformed officer there, and said that she would like to go in and see him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why did you happen to go to Marguerite?

Mr. DEAN. Well, I was just standing outside the door there where they said he was, and someone had pointed her out, and said that's the mother and the wife. No particular reason. But I did, after she asked to go in and see him, they said--the doctor said it would be all right for them, and I did go in with them, when they went in to view the body. During the time that we were in this room where Oswald's body was Mrs. Oswald, the mother, turned to me and said that at this time she wanted to make a statement to me in regard to the allegations against her son, that she could--something to the effect that she could prove that they were wrong, and about this time she was interrupted by one of the nurses telling me that I was wanted on the phone. So I left and didn't see----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who had called you at that time?

Mr. DEAN. Lieutenant Pierce.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was he ?

Mr. DEAN. He was at central headquarters.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he have to say?

Mr. DEAN. He asked me how long I thought I was going to be there and I said, well, I was leaving now. And then I left and came back to the city hall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you talked to Pierce on the telephone, did you tell him about your conversation with Ruby?

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Mr. DEAN. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you drove out to Parkland Hospital, did you drive out alone?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you drove back, did you drive back with anybody?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir; by myself.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what did you do when you got back to central police headquarters?

Mr. DEAN. I went to our office on the second floor, the patrol captain's office.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And who was there?

Mr. DEAN. Well, I don't recall exactly. I know this was again getting close to the change time. It was somewhere around 2 o'clock, and the secretary told me that I had several phone calls waiting on me, and one of--well, there were some long distance calls that had seen me on television, and I didn't answer all of them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Any phone calls from anybody you knew?

Mr. DEAN. No; my wife had called. I mean there had just been a lot of people calling.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you make any phone calls when you got that message that you had calls?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir; at the time, about--the only phone call that I had taken was the dispatcher called and--just about the time I walked in, and said that I had a long distance call from--oh, Chicago or somewhere, and they transferred it down there, and, of course, they were asking who this man was, how did he get in, questions that newsmen--it was from some radio station.. I didn't ----

Mr. GRIFFIN. In Chicago. And did you tell them?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then what did you do after that long distance telephone call from Chicago?

Mr. DEAN. Well, there was newsmen from KLIF came into the office, asked would I give him a short interview, which I did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who were those people?

Mr. DEAN. This man, it was Glen Duncan. I didn't know him before, I hadn't seen him before.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Anybody else that you remember with him?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir; he was by himself.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And was that a tape-recorded interview ?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir; station KLIF.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And how long did that interview last?

Mr. DEAN. Gosh, I don't know. Maybe 4 or 5 minutes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever get a copy of that interview from them?

Mr. DEAN. He sent me one, and it's at home somewhere. It didn't play on my recorder and I didn't even try to play it since then.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you supply that to the Commission?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. If you would make a note of that, I would appreciate it.

Mr. DEAN. Any particular speed that you want this?

Mr. GRIFFIN. No; and incidentally, if you would like it transcribed at a speed that will play on your recorder, I am sure we would be happy to do that for you, and just exchange tapes, since we are taking a tape from you, we will give it back to you at a speed you can play.

Mr. DEAN. Okay; all right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, where did this KLIF interview take place?

Mr. DEAN. It was on the second floor there in the small room that was unoccupied at the time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do after that interview?

Mr. DEAN. I stayed around the office. I don't remember anything particularly that I did do. Again, answering questions of people coming on. I think that some men had been called in from off duty to report for duty. Gosh, I don't even remember what time I got off from work that day.

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Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you stay around the office all the rest of the time that you were there, that you were on duty?

Mr. DEAN. Well, I would imagine that I went back to the basement. Let me think. The rest of the time I didn't do anything in particular. I mean any specific assignment that I can recall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But you seem to have some idea that you went back to the basement?

Mr. DEAN. Well, the reason I think that I did, I had been away from there about an hour and a half, and I just wanted to go back. I am sure that I went back down there just to check on the situation and the confusion that might have been in the basement, to see if possibly I would have to notify the on-coming platoon how many men they might need to stay around the city hall, quell this confusion.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you go back up to the third floor at all?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The rest of that day?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir; I don't think so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk to any officers from the homicide bureau at all, that day, the rest of that day?

Mr. DEAN. Not that I recall; no, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk with any police officers that day, about how Ruby got into the basement?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who did you talk to?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir; now, you are bringing something back. I know now what I did immediately--we will have to go back on the record. When I got back to the city hall, I contacted Lieutenant Pierce and advised him--that's when I talked to Pierce about my conversation with Ruby, and I told him that I had talked to Ruby and that he told me that--how he had gotten into the basement, which was breaking security, and that Officer R. E. Vaughn was the man involved.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Ruby told you--or you told him----

Mr. DEAN. I told Lieutenant Pierce that Ruby had told me he had came in through the Main Street ramp, at which Officer Vaughn was posted.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And then what did you and Pierce do?

Mr. DEAN. He notified the captain of this.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Talbert?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And did Talbert come in? Were you present when Pierce notified Talbert ?

Mr. DEAN. I was present when--I do know that they called Vaughn in, but I think that he had already gone home that day, and that he was off the next day, and I think they called him to tell him to come, to report to the office this next morning, to investigate whether he did let Ruby in or how he got in, or why he said he came in through his post.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You didn't talk with Vaughn the rest of the day?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And to your knowledge Pierce didn't talk with him the rest of that day?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Or Talbert?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what else was done that day, as you recall, as a result of your telling Pierce about the conversation with Ruby?

Mr. DEAN. I am sure that--I don't know. I am thinking that Captain Talbert called Chief Fisher, notified him of it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What's your best estimate of what time of the day that would have been, that you talked with Pierce?

Mr. DEAN. It was that afternoon, I believe, after I had gotten back from the hospital. I didn't remember it a while ago, but I think when I did get back from the hospital, that's when I told Lieutenant Pierce about it, somewhere around 2:30 or 3.

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Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there any kind of record that you would have maintained, or the police department would have maintained, that would give us some better way of fixing that time?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir; not that I know of.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Dispatchers? Did you call the dispatcher to tell them you were coming back?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir; now, it was about 2 when I was talking--or had taken Mrs. Oswald in to view Lee, and I left then, somewhere around 2. So I got back to the station, maybe around 2:25 or 2:30, so when I told Lieutenant Pierce about it, it should have been somewhere around, maybe 3, or the first time I saw him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you, after coming back and talking with Pierce, make any further efforts or make any effort to talk with people who you had assigned in the basement, or who you knew were working in the basement, concerning the security of the basement?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir; I did ask Nelson could he say for sure that this man didn't come through his post, and he said he could say for sure that he didn't come through the police and court building, Nelson's post.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when did you talk with Nelson?

Mr. DEAN. This was, I am sure, when I got back--probably when I got back from the hospital. I don't recall. It might have been before I went. This was my main thought, as to how the man got into the basement.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you call Vaughn at that time?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir; I asked him, just as I asked the others, had this man come through, because I knew the focal point was going to be on Vaughn, and I knew the investigation was going to be on Vaughn.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you talk with Vaughn that afternoon?

Mr. DEAN. It seems that Lieutenant Pierce and I talked to him, and I think Captain Talbert was there. It was up on the second floor. It seems that we did talk to him that day, asked him did he have any knowledge of how he got into the basement. Captain Talbert was doing most of the questioning. I told Lieutenant Pierce and Captain Talbert what Ruby had told me, and from this he was questioning Vaughn.

Now, I think this was in the afternoon and Vaughn was scheduled to be off the next day, and Captain Talbert told him he better come on into work the next day, for the purpose, I assumed, of more investigation.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Nelson, when was Nelson talked to?

Mr. DEAN. Well now, I talked to Nelson myself. I don't know. I am sure that somebody else did too, but I don't know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that before or after you talked with Vaughn?

Mr. DEAN. I don't remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And where did that conversation with Nelson take place?

Mr. DEAN. He was still on his post when I talked to him. Of course, this--whether it was before I went to the hospital or--I am sure that it probably was before I went to the hospital, that I asked Nelson could he say for certain that this man hadn't come by him, and he said yes. And then I asked Patterson, all of them; Patterson, Nelson, Vaughn, stated the man did not come by their post, but I--the focal would be on Vaughn, since I had been told that that's where Ruby came in, by Ruby himself.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well now, Nelson gave a statement----

VOICE. Excuse me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. Nelson was interviewed by the Bureau--Federal Bureau of Investigation on December 4, and the Bureau indicates that he told them, and this is the Bureau's language and not his, talking about his post, he said the other officer assigned there with him was a reserve officer whose name he does not know. He was there for just 3 or 4 minutes, when Sergeant Putnam told them to station themselves just behind the first jail office window, for people were coming in, in regard to jail office business, such as seeing prisoners. They were instructed not to let any unauthorized persons through the door or ramp leading into the basement.

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Okay, when I read that I was mistaken as to where I thought he was standing, so that I was under the impression he was pulled off of his post, but that would be entirely consistent. Apparently all they did was to move him a few feet. Well, the jail office window, you have three here. One, two, and three windows--so [indicating]. Well now, did you talk with Bobby Patterson at all?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir; I asked him could he say for sure that this man didn't come in his post.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And when did you talk with him?

Mr. DEAN. Some time before I went to the hospital.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk with a reserve officer by the name of Newman?

Mr. DEAN. I don't recall the name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk with this reserve officer who was stationed over in this area here, as you have indicated on the map [indicating]?

Mr. DEAN. I asked Sergeant Putnam--in fact, we had talked during the day about this man, whether to keep him or not, and I said definitely keep him there, tell him to remain there. Now, I don't recall talking to this man specifically about seeing if anyone had come through here. I was fairly certain that they hadn't. The main thing I was thinking about was that Ruby told me he came in here. I had no reason to doubt him, but I didn't know how he had gotten in, other than what he had said, just walking down, and I knew that this was putting R. E. Vaughn in dereliction of his duty.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, now; it's my understanding you talked with Patterson before you went to Parkland Hospital?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And you talked with Vaughn and Nelson after you went to Parkland?

Mr. DEAN. Well, I probably asked all of them the question, "Did you see this man come in here; do you know him?" And, of course, Vaughn said he knew him, Patterson said he knew him. I don't recall whether Nelson said he knew him or not, but that Patterson and Vaughn both stated, and along with Nelson, that he did not come through their post.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you talk with any of the other men who were stationed down there in the basement?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir; these were the men that I assigned and gave my instructions, and those were the ones that I could talk to.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember, on November 24, talking at all with "Blackie" Harrison?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. About this?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about L. D. Miller?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about McMillon?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you saw McMillon and, as I understand----

Mr. DEAN. He was with Jack Ruby when we interviewed him up in the jail.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. DEAN. And he asked no questions. I am sure that he stood there and listened, as an interested party, or----

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Bob Lowery?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir; I didn't talk to him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, after you had passed this information on to Pierce, as I recall, you said that you thought you might have talked with Vaughn some time that afternoon?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember anything else you did that afternoon besides possibly talking with Vaughn ?

Mr. DEAN. Not anything else particularly, other than asking Nelson and Patterson, along with Vaughn, separately, rather, or individually, that I did ask them did this man come by them, and they said no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. By the time you left work that day, had any instructions been given with respect to preparing reports as to what happened?

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Mr. DEAN. No, sir; this was the next morning.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you file a report at the end of the day?

Mr. DEAN. At the end of the day?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. DEAN. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you make any notes that particular day, on the 24th?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir; my assignments.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And other than your assignments, did you make any other notes?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir

Mr. GRIFFIN. And do you keep those in a regular assignment book?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir; just a small notebook that I had. I always--when I deal with a group of men, rather than try to remember where I put them, I always write it down.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When was the first time that you made any notes about the events, or wrote a report about the events of the 24th?

Mr. DEAN. November the--I think probably I wrote this report on the 25th, which was the next day, but it's headed November the 26th, but I imagine that's the time the typist got to it. She was doing a lot of typing from then on, but I think the next morning is when I wrote this report.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you have the original notes that you made, that you used to write that report up ?

Mr. DEAN. This report; yes, sir. This is the one that I will supply to you.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Good. When was the next time that you saw Jack Ruby, after your interview or session with him up there?

Mr. DEAN. The next time I saw him?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. DEAN. In the courtroom during the trial.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Off the record.

(Discussion off the record. )

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I am going to hand you what I have marked for identification as Exhibit 5008, which is marked "Dallas, Texas, Sergeant Dean, March 25, 1964, Exhibit 5008." This is actually stapled to Exhibit 5007, but Exhibit 5008 is the report of the interview that you had with FBI Agents Paul L. Scott and Edmond C. Hardin, on December 2, 1963, in Dallas. Will you look at that, Sergeant Dean, and tell me if you had a chance to read that over? Let me ask you first of all, if you have had a chance to read it over?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir; last night. There are some corrections [indicating]----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Will you state to us what you think should be corrected in that statement?

Mr. DEAN. On page 1, the last paragraph, I don't know whether it's too important. It says, "Dean recalled that before starting the search of the basement he assigned Officer B. G. Patterson to stand at the Commerce Street ramp leading to the basement." Now, this is actually the exit from the basement, if that means anything. The way it reads here it sounds like that's the entrance.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don't you take my pen and change that. You might make it read, "which is the exit"----

Mr. DEAN. Exit from the basement.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; and if you would, just out in the margin, put your initials and the date.

Mr. DEAN. Page 2, paragraph 4, same error, Commerce Street ramp leading into the basement [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay.

Mr. DEAN. I will mark it "exit". Page 4, paragraph 3--off the record.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; all right; that's all right.

Mr. DEAN. It says, "Dean has known Jack Ruby since 1959." This is erroneous.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How should it read ?

Mr. DEAN. It should be either 1960 or 1961, whatever date I could find out and let you know for sure, the time that I came downtown from the Oak Cliff area, as a sergeant. I was assigned to the downtown area, which includes the location of Carousel Club. I have been downtown some 4 or 5 months before

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I was assigned to this location. So I would say it would have been about 4 or 5 months after I was transferred to the downtown area that I met Jack Ruby.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long were you assigned to that downtown area?

Mr. DEAN. About a year and a half.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And were you a sergeant at that time?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any men working under your direction?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How many men worked under your direction down there?

Mr. DEAN. Well, it would vary from the hours that I worked, from 12 to 17 or 17 men, depending on the hours. Twelve regular men, or 13 regular men.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, was Vaughn under your direction at that time?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir. Vaughn has never worked for me directly.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Nelson ?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Bobby Patterson?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. Patterson worked for me when I was assigned to the area in the 100, district 100, in the downtown area.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And was that the area that Jack Ruby's nightclub was in?

Mr. DEAN. Patterson occasionally worked on the district that Ruby's Carousel Club was on. Not as a regular man.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know if Patterson was friendly with Ruby?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You just don't know?

Mr. DEAN. I don't know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you consider yourself a friend of Patterson's?

Mr. DEAN. Not intimately; no, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you see Patterson on a social basis ?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Does Patterson still work under your direction?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Whose direction is he under now?

Mr. DEAN. Sergeant Jennings, W. G. Jennings. He is still assigned to that area. Not the specific district that the Carousel was on, or has been on, but let's see--I don't recall exactly what district he is assigned to; 103 I believe.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Go ahead, if there is anything else. Incidentally, on this date, have we turned the page on that? The date there, why don't you make a correction as to what you think it is, and if you feel, when you check your notes, that you want to correct it even more exactly, why you can be free to do it [indicating].

Mr. DEAN. I would like to clarify this one thing. "On occasions when driving in the area with another officer, he would go up to the Carousel, usually once or twice a week." This is true, as far as once or twice a week, and sometimes three times a week. However, this--with another officer is erroneous. Usually it would be with some friend of mine that would be riding with me, rather than another officer.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay. Why don't you put that down ?

Mr. DEAN. Mutual friend or----

Mr. GRIFFIN. This would be somebody that would be interested in sort of riding with the police officer, like newspaper reporters do?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. "In addition, Dean said he had gone to the club while off duty on four occasions." I would say four would be the outside, but I think I have been there only three times since I have known him, since 1960 or 1961 [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don't you change that, then. When is the time you were there most recently?

Mr. DEAN. The last time I had been in his place was--well, we will say relative to the shooting, I haven't been in there since, and I think 6 or 8 months before would be the last time I had been in there, and in fact, that long since I had seen Ruby.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know any of Ruby's employees?

Mr. DEAN. By name. No, sir.

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Mr. GRIFFIN. But you knew them to talk to?

Mr. DEAN. To speak only. The people that were in the trial, well, George Senator, I didn't know his name. I couldn't place it--knew the face but I didn't know his name until the trial, and he was a bartender regularly at the club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, was he the bartender there on a regular basis in 1960 or 1961?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. He was a regular there all the time that I worked there, or worked in that area.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who else did you recognize at the trial whom you remember from the Carousel Club?

Mr. DEAN. I don't believe I recognized anyone, other than this fellow George Senator.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there a Negro man named Andy Armstrong that testified at the trial ?

Mr. DEAN. I don't know. I don't know Andy Armstrong.

Mr. GRIFFIN. He is one of Ruby's workers there. Okay. Anything else in there that [indicating]----

Mr. DEAN. Well, I would like for the record to show that my visits while off duty to the Carousel was definitely an exception rather than rule, and it would usually be when out-of-town people would come to town, and this, by my working in that area, had gone in there frequently on duty, I knew--or there had never been any trouble in there, to my knowledge, as far as fights and such as that. I knew it was a safe place for an off-duty officer to go, and interesting to someone that hadn't seen it. So this is the exception that I went there. I recall now, by reading this investigation by the FBI, that soon after I had left the basement after this shooting, or left the immediate area where Oswald was laying, I do recall now asking R. C. Nelson, that was stationed at that doorway, had he come in that way, and he then stated he was positive he hadn't. This was reflected in this--I do remember. I wanted it to show that I do remember now, after reading that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, let me stop you here, Sergeant.

Mr. DEAN. All right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me direct your attention to one portion of that report. Have you read that portion of the report which deals with this lengthy discussion that you and I had about the talk, the one talk you had with Ruby on the date that Ruby shot Oswald; have you read that portion of the report?

Mr. DEAN. In the FBI report?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. DEAN. Let's see. I don't recall reading it. You mean now have I read it?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. Have you just read it?

Mr. DEAN. No; I haven't read it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you find that, or I can maybe find it for you quicker, but would you find that portion in there and would you read that and tell me if that reports everything that you learned from Ruby at that time ?

Mr. DEAN. If it's included in this report [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. And I don't have simply reference to the discussion about entering the basement, but if it reports everything of importance that he told you during that interview?

Mr. DEAN. I believe that this February 18 report would--the FBI report doesn't include--it has the questions that I asked of Ruby and not of Sorrels, if that's what you mean,, it does. But this February 18 report is what [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me hand you, then, what I have marked for identification as Exhibit 5010. It's a copy of a letter signed by you, dated February 18, 1964, addressed to Mr. J. E. Curry, chief of police. Did you prepare that letter?

Mr. DEAN. Yes; I did [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. And let me ask you this, is that a true and accurate copy of the actual original letter that you sent?

Mr. DEAN. That's a copy I made myself, a Xerox copy [indicating].

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Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you write that letter on the basis of any notes?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir; from memory.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you prepare any prior reports to the police department or anybody else, in connection with the events that are recounted in that February 18th letter, other than the letter dated November 26, to Chief Curry, which I have marked Exhibit 5009, and this interview report, which we have designated 5008; are there any other writings that you prepared prior to February 18?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir; there is one report that I had written regarding the article in the newspaper, that I had seen Ruby come into the basement.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see.

Mr. DEAN. Do you have that?

Mr. GRIFFIN. I don't know if I have got that or not. Could you get us a copy of that? I don't know if we have that or not.

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir; now, I think the FBI made several or made a report of that, also. The investigation about the department there, I don't know----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, I know they made an investigation of it, and I don't have the actual copy of the report. I have got the results of their investigation but not the report.

Mr. DEAN. I see.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Other than that report on the newspaper article and these two other exhibits that I have referred to, are there any other writings that you made that relate to the subject matters as recounted in this February 18----

Mr. DEAN. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Letter. Now, how did you come to write this letter of February 18, 1964?

Mr. DEAN. Chief Stevenson called me, while I was in the office on that date, and asked me to come up to see him, and I did. And he asked me was I present during the entire interview with Ruby and Mr. Sorrels. I told him I was. And he asked me did I remember most of the interview; could I recollect most of the interview and the answers that Ruby had given and I said, "Yes, sir." Then he advised me to make a report of it, asked me would I make a report of it, recalling everything that I could of that interview. To the best of my knowledge, that's all I could remember. And I did testify to all this stuff in the trial.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is this the first time that you told anyone that Ruby had told Sorrels that he thought about killing Oswald two nights prior when he saw him in the showup room?

Mr. DEAN. Well, I don't recall telling it to any particular person. I knew that this would probably be later used as testimony, I felt, since it was--did make an impression on me, that I could remember it, and it's written as I do remember, just about as it happened, it correlates pretty well, even though we didn't get together with Mr. Sorrels' report.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But you can't remember?

Mr. DEAN. Talking to anyone especially or specifically about what Ruby had told me, other than how he got into the basement and how long he had been there; no, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Or of any particular reference to the statement that Ruby made to Sorrels that you have reported in here, about thinking about killing Oswald two nights before; you can't remember that you ever----

Mr. DEAN. No, sir; I did feel at the time that I would probably testify to this in court. I did witness Mr. Sorrels taking his notes, and I felt if I had to, since I did witness it, I could use the notes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I think there is one other exhibit that I haven't identified. We have talked about it, and that's Exhibit 5009, which is a copy of a letter which purports to have been prepared by you, addressed to Chief Curry, dated November 26, 1963. Would you look at Exhibit 5009 [indicating] ?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir; that's my report [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. And you have read that over many times, have you not?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir; would you like for me to sign it?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir; I would like for you to sign both 5008 and 5009.

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Mr. DEAN. All right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are there any additions or corrections you wanted to make to that?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Put a date by that, by your signature also, if you will [indicating].

Mr. DEAN. All right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And let me hand you 5010, and ask you to sign that and date it [indicating].

Mr. DEAN. It's been signed----of course, this is a Xerox copy- Do you want me to go ahead and sign it again?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. DEAN. All right [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you take this one here, Exhibit 5008, and would you sign that and date it [indicating] ?

Mr. DEAN. Where [indicating]?

Mr. GRIFFIN. On the front page, I think probably is just as well [indicating]. Off the record.

(Discussion off the record. )

Mr. GRIFFIN. Sergeant, you and I have been talking here off the record for--I don't have a watch, but I would guess for 15 or 20 minutes, with respect to other matters, and you indicated to me just before we brought the court reporter in, that you had obtained some information that apparently had not been previously made available to the Commission, and I wonder if you could tell us what that is?

Mr. DEAN. It was relative to a telephone call that I received last night at about 2 o'clock in the morning. I didn't mark the time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where were you?

Mr. DEAN. At city hall. In the office there. The city hall operator had called me and told me that she had a man, or an operator on the line from Victoria, British Columbia, in Canada, and that she had been--this operator had told her she had been talking to a man in Victoria about some films that he had of the assassination, and asked me did I want to take the call, and it wasn't--it was a collect call, and the operator said that she couldn't unless it was by my authorization, but she did tell me she heard this man talk enough that she believed he was serious and had something that possibly could be used by the Warren Commission. And, of course, I heard some of the conversation, and the man sounded rational, and the operator in Victoria, her name was Bernice Williamson, she is the night supervisor of the B.C. Telephone Company, said that she had talked to this man long enough that she thought he probably had something. And so I accepted the call. This man's name was Ralph Simpson. He was calling from 384-3780, and he told me that he had been standing on the southern part of the plaza when the assassination took place, and he had a wide scope movie camera that he believed would have taken in the building and the motorcade at the time the shots were fired; that he had talked it over with his attorney--and the name of the attorney was Batter [spelling] B-a-t-t- e-r, is what I got, and that Batter advised him to call someone here, but not the Warren Commission. And he asked me--when I accepted the call, he asked me what I would suggest, and I told him that first he should mail them to the Warren Commission. And then he asked me had I been to the Warren Commission. He recognized my name, that I had been testifying, and I said, "Yes; and I am scheduled to go back tomorrow night." And he said, "Well, I will send the films to you. They haven't been--". Well, he said they hadn't been developed, and he wasn't going to have them developed, that he would send them to me airmail. This was about 2 o'clock in the night--on the morning of the 24th, this morning [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. You have in front of you, Sergeant, a piece of paper?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir; what I took notes----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are those your original notes?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can I mark that for identification?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.

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Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to mark this, "Dallas, Tex., Sergeant Dean, March 24, 1964, Exhibit 5012." Now, let me see if I understand you correctly. This was a collect call placed from Canada to the police department?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. By a man by the name of Simpson, Ralph Simpson?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you actually talk with Simpson?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did the telephone call last?

Mr. DEAN. Four minutes and three seconds, I think.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is this the name of the operator that put the call through, Bernice Williamson?

Mr. DEAN. She was the Victoria operator.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you get the name of the city operator?

Mr. DEAN. The city operator was Patsy. I don't know her last name. Patsy. She is the night operator at city hall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you indicate that Patsy handled that? Did Patsy listen in on the call?

Mr. DEAN. Yes [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. And have you talked with her about this since?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir; she called back and gave me the time and charges on it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And is there a record of that in the police department?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you get that for us?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I would appreciate that.

Mr. DEAN. Now, when she called me back to give me the time and charges she said that the operator had further checked this number 384-3780, and that number was--the call was made from the residence of the initials R. H. W., last name [spelling] S-m-e-l-e [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who had checked that, now?

Mr. DEAN. The police department

Mr. GRIFFIN. Patsy?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir; this night supervisor, Bernice Williamson in Canada, had contacted the police department there and asked them could they cross that number, or furnish her the address or name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Bernice Williamson tell you this after you finished the telephone call?

Mr. DEAN. She told Patsy, the city hall operator this, and this is----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Patsy reconveyed that to you?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And you learned this from Patsy after the conversation with Simpson?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir; this R. H. W. Smele has an address of 1141 Caldonia in Victoria.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Have you reported this to anybody else?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I appreciate your bringing it to us then, very much. Would you sign that exhibit, Sergeant?

Mr. DEAN. [Indicating.]

Mr. GRIFFIN. We will certainly look into that right away.

Off the record.

(Discussion off the record. )

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Sergeant, we have been off the record here awhile, and you indicated that the man said something about having been here on vacation and some other thing. Will you tell us what else?

Mr. DEAN. He said he had been here on vacation and that when he learned of the President's coming, he had stationed himself on the southwestern part of the plaza, toward the railroad tracks, and that he had a wide scope--he referred to it as a full wide scope camera, and that he believed that he had gotten the assassination. He was taking pictures at the time of the assassination, and he believed that he had the building in the background, because it's in direct

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trajectory of the line of fire. My impression of him was that since he said that he had talked it over with his attorney and didn't know what to do with these things, that he seemed to be scared as to whether to keep them or throw them away or what. When he told me that he would send them to me, that he said, "You can have them. I haven't developed them, and you don't have to send me any copies of them back."

Mr. GRIFFIN. Will you notify us as soon as they receive those films?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And turn them over to us?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. You want all the records from the city hall operator?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Telephone call; yes.

Mr. DEAN. This has been signed and dated [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay. Now, I don't know if you have had a chance to read this or not, but this is what I have marked as Exhibit 5011, which is an interview with you by Special Agent Paul Scott of the Federal Bureau of Investigation on December 9, 1963. Would you look that over and then----

Mr. DEAN. Sign it?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Sign it and make any changes or additions that you want to make in it.

Mr. DEAN. [Indicating.]

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then let me state for the record that I appreciate very much the assistance that Sergeant Dean has given us here this evening, and I hope, and I am sure that if anything further comes to light which he thinks would be of value to the Commission, that he will come forward with it voluntarily, as you have here today?

Mr. DEAN. Burt, this--of course, I was cleared of all of this, as far as this newspaper article----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. DEAN. I was just wondering if you had the FBI report on it?

Mr. GRIFFIN. We do. And I just wanted to make sure that as far as any statements are concerned, that you have made, or report, that you had a chance to look at them, and to my knowledge, I think I have shown you every one that we have on it.

Mr. DEAN. All right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay. That's all.

--------------

TESTIMONY OF PATRICK TREVORE DEAN RESUMED

The testimony of Patrick Trevore Dean was taken at 4:45 p.m., on April 1, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Mr. P. T. Dean was accompanied by his lawyer, Mr. Ted MacMasters.

Mr. HUBERT. Note that I am present. Note that Sgt. P. T. Dean is present and Mr. Ted MacMasters assistant city attorney of Dallas, and appearing as attorney for Mister--Sergeant Dean. Now, Sergeant Dean, your deposition was begun on----

Mr. DEAN. I believe it was a Tuesday.

Mr. MACMASTERS. March 24.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Burt Griffin as the member of the Commission's advisory staff conducting the examination. At that time you took an oath, I believe?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Are you willing to consider that this is simply a continuation of that deposition?

Mr. DEAN. Yes; I am.

Mr. HUBERT. And that you are under the same oath that you were before?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I wish to advise you that I have been authorized by Mr. J. Lee

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Rankin, general counsel for the Commission's staff to take your deposition under oath also. In other words, both Mr. Griffin and I have been so authorized, and I think he advised you of the general conditions and the right of notice and waiver and so forth?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. So that as far as I am concerned, I will just ask you if you have anything to add to your deposition or anything to say at all in any way?

Mr. DEAN. I told Mr. Griffin on that date that I would bring him additional information that he wanted.

One was a record of the telephone call received on the 24th. Now, that would make your interview on the 25th, actually, I believe. Now, no, no; that's right. The morning, early morning hours of the 24th is when I received this call from Victoria, Canada.

That is a record of it from the city hall operator. That was pertaining to the film from the fellow in Alaska--or--correction, in Canada that he said he would----

Mr. MACMASTERS. Do you want to identify this?

Mr. HUBERT. You have handed me two documents and I judge that one of them is a photostatic copy of a front of a document, and the other is a photostatic copy of the rear of that document?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Well; I am going to mark them for identification as follows: "Dallas, Tex., April 1, 1964. Exhibit--" We'll use number--5136, continuation of deposition of Sgt. P. T. Dean." And I am signing my name for the purposes of identification and I am signing the second document which you state is a photostatic copy of the back of the document now identified as Exhibit 5136, as follows: "Dallas, Tex. April 1, 1964. Exhibit 5136-A, continuation of Deposition of P. T. Dean." Signing my name on the back of this, and for the purposes of identification and to show that we are both talking about the same document, would you mind putting your name below mine?

Mr. DEAN. All right, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, will you identify what these two documents were? Perhaps we'd better do it again, in the light of their identification numbers, so, let me ask you what are the documents that have now been marked for identification as 5136 and 5136-A?

Mr. DEAN. A record of the city hall's operator receiving a call from Victoria, Canada, on that date of March 24, about 4 o'clock in the morning and at that time I talked to--I believe it is Jack Simpson, or it is Ralph Simpson, and he stated that he had a reel of movie film that he had taken of the assassination and the trajectory of the line of fire which was on the far side of the plaza, which would be on the south side of Commerce Street. Mr. Simpson told me on the phone that he believed he had gotten not only the assassination, but also the building from where the bullet was fired. But I advised him--he wanted to know what to do with this film, and I advised him to send it to the Warren Commission in Washington, and he said that he had talked to his attorney and the attorney, Batter [phonetic] in Victoria, I didn't get the first name, his attorney had advised him to contact someone in Dallas and to send them to whatever place they said other than to the Warren Commission. He then asked me could he send them to me and I told him that he could. I checked with my office then just before coming over here today and the film hadn't come in.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he say he was going to send them by mail?

Mr. DEAN. Yes; he said he would airmail them the next day.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he indicate why he had called you, or just that you were on duty?

Mr. DEAN. Just on the advice of his attorney.

Mr. HUBERT. But, I mean, your particular name?

Mr. DEAN. No; he didn't ask for me particularly. However, he said that he recognized my name from reading of my testimony in the papers.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, he made the call, he was calling specifically to you. You happened to be on duty, and therefore, the call came to you?

Mr. DEAN. That's right, and that is the record of the call received. That is what Mr. Griffin wanted.

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Mr. HUBERT. And the other part that you told us about was the substance of a phone call?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Right. Okay. Now, if you are going to talk about another document let's get it identified first and get numbers on it. Now, Mr. Dean, you are handing me a document consisting of three pages being apparently a photostatic copy of a letter dated April 8, 1963, addressed to J. E. Curry, Chief of Police. Last page shows "P. Treavor Dean----

Mr. MACMASTERS. I believe that is December 8. You said April.

Mr. HUBERT. Oh, 110, no. December S. Couldn't be April 8, we aren't there yet.

"P. Treavor Dean, Sergeant Police Control Division," and in order that it may be identified and that the record may show what we're talking about, I am marking this first page in the right-hand margin, "Dallas, Tex., April 1, 1964. Exhibit 5137, Continuation of Deposition of P. T. Dean," signing my name below that, and the inscription on the second page, placing my initial in the right-hand lower corner and on the third page I am doing the same, and also ask you to sign the pages and initial them as I have done.

Mr. DEAN. All right.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir. Now, do you have any comments to make with reference to this Document 5137, which you have handed me?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir; I believe it is self-explanatory.

Mr. HUBERT. Is this one of the documents that----

Mr. DEAN. Mr. Griffin asked me would I bring.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir. Thank you.

Mr. DEAN. Mr. Griffin also asked me to bring a copy, if I had one, of my original notes that I had taken in the basement that day of my assignments and I have those.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, what day are you speaking of? The 24th?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir; November 24.

Mr. HUBERT. November 24.

Mr. DEAN. They are not all--all my assignments are not here. However, the majority of them are.

Mr. HUBERT. When you say your assignments, you mean the people you assigned, or the job you were assigned to?

Mr. DEAN. The people that I assigned to various locations in the basement.

Mr. HUBERT. I see. Now, do you propose to let me then have that or a photostatic copy of it, or do you propose simply to dictate the information into the record?

Mr. DEAN. Well how about me just dictating it and I will keep this?

Mr. HUBERT. All right. Now, if Mr. Griffin's purpose was to find out whether they existed, then perhaps I ought to look at them so I can state I have seen these things myself.

Mr. DEAN. All right, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Therefore, let the record show that as Mr. Dean reads the information he is going to read, I am following him, and if he reads them correctly, I will say nothing. If he reads them incorrectly, or in a way that I do not understand, I will call it to his attention so that we may get it clear. All right?

Mr. DEAN. My first assignments were made just prior to our searching the basement. They were Officer Vaughn. R. E. Vaughn I assigned to the Main Street ramp, which is the north ramp entering the basement. Officer Patterson, B. G. Patterson to the Commerce Street ramp, which is the exit onto Commerce Street. These men were to be--were assigned to the top of these ramps. Officer Brock was assigned to the elevator in the basement. Officer Nelson was assigned in the hall at the jail doors. Well, in--at the jail window.

Mr. HUBERT. What is that?

Mr. DEAN. This is "Commerce ramp". All right, now, Officer Jez, I assigned him with Patterson at the Commerce Street ramp.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, of course, these notes are not exactly like that. You

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have added a few words, but let the record show that there is--displayed to me a paper which has, in substance, all that Mr. Dean has testified to.

Mr. MACMASTERS. You are interpolating your notes, aren't you?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir; and adding initials and--yes, sir. These two other men here, I don't know which one for sure, but they are Reserve Officers Fred A. Briederdorf, it looks like [spelling] B-r-i-e-d-e-r--or, B-e-r-d-r-f, and also another man by the name of Hunt, initials of which I don't know, or the first name. They were assigned to the basement, and I think that one of these two men I assigned to the entrance into the basement, or the machinery room.

Mr. HUBERT. There is a word here.

Mr. DEAN. Reserve.

Mr. HUBERT. Oh, that is reserve

Mr. DEAN. This is the page where I started to make some traffic assignments and they changed it, so, I--now, these are the traffic assignments just prior to the movement of Oswald. At Commerce and Pearl I assigned Officer Erwin, initials I don't know. At Commerce and Central, Officer Burton. At Central and Main, Officer Wages. At Central and Elm, Officer Gregory. At Pearl and Elm, Officer Tolbert. At Harwood and Elm, Officer Fox. At St. Paul and Elm, Officer Wise. At Elm and Ervay, shows here Brock. Brock. At Stone and Elm, Officer Raz. Akard and Elm, Officer Hibbs. At Field and Elm, Officer Anderson, and at Lamar and Elm, Officer Ferris. Now, these were just tentative assignments. I think in one of my reports that is already in evidence is the permanent assignments, but these are the originals that I made that afternoon which were tentative.

Now, this is just a note that I had written down from a Bob Stewart. He worked for WRR, and he was giving me some information that he had received. I don't remember from where he had received it, but he stated to me, and I had written it down here, a Serge Fliger, he is with Mutual News in Vienna, Austria, and that in essence now, I can interpret these notes for you, if you would rather.

Mr. HUBERT. Why don't you just read them and then interpret them.

Mr. DEAN. That source of Serge's information from behind the Iron Curtain that a man told him, and he--it was a man that he stated that he trusted completely, that there was a group of dissident Russian soldiers, that this whole thing was an international plot, and that the Communists would kill off Oswald as quick as possible.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, with reference to those last few notes about Fliger, what you have read is not exactly what is in the book itself, but it is rather your----

Mr. DEAN. More of an interpretation of my notes, because I had written it rather hurriedly.

Mr. HUBERT. But, let the record show that as I read the notes the interpretation of them seems consistent with what I read.

Mr. DEAN. I believe that is all that is in here, Mr. Hubert. I believe that's all.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, may I ask this; were all those notes that you have just shown to me and read into the record with interpolations written in your own hand?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Were they written at the time that you made the various assignments and so forth ?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And that includes also that information about that Serge Fliger from Austria?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. All right.

Mr. DEAN. And also, Mr. Griffin wanted me to find, if I could obtain a copy of the--regarding a tape recording. It was an interview with radio station KLIF, and this interview took place about 2:30 on November 24.

Mr. HUBERT. 2:30 p.m.?

Mr DEAN. That afternoon. Yes, sir; I do have a copy of that and I have listened to it and it is true and correct to the best of my knowledge, sir.

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Mr. HUBERT. Are you proposing to give me the tape itself, or a transcription of it?

Mr. DEAN. Well, that is a transcript, I assume. I just asked KLIF would they make me a copy of it and this is a transcript.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you propose to let me have the film, or this little record, or seems to be tape on a regular roll. Do you want it back?

Mr. DEAN. Could I have it back when the Commission gets through with it?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes, sir; but I don't know when that will be, you know.

Mr. DEAN. Well, whenever it might be.

Mr. HUBERT. I am trying to see how we are going to mark this.

Mr. MACMASTER. Could it be placed in a sealed envelope and initialed across it and seal it and so forth?

Mr. HUBERT. I have placed my initials, LDH, on one end of the tape, and I have done that also, on the other end of the tape and giving the exhibit number of--by marking it "EX, 5138," with ball point pen on both ends of the tape, and then I'm also marking the small box, "5138" on one side, and "5138" on the other side, with my initials on both sides.

Mr. DEAN. Do you want me to initial it?

Mr. HUBERT. Oh, I don't know that that is necessary if you have heard that recording.

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And it is a true recording of an interview of you, as I understand it,. that you had with some reporter of the----

Mr. DEAN. At KLIF.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember his name?

Mr. DEAN. Glenn Duncan. It is on the tape also.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir. You think it is a correct recording of a conversation?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, anything else?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir; I, well, when these film, if they do come in, this fellow does send them to me, I will make them available to you.

Mr. HUBERT. You can do so through Mr. Barefoot Sanders. Contact us immediately.

Mr. DEAN. All right, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I will accept this and place these various exhibits you have given me today in with the other exhibits in the folder that we are putting all these exhibits in.

Mr. DEAN. All right.

Mr. HUBERT. Any other matters?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. That is all. Thank you very much. Mr. MacMasters, thank you very much.

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BAKER Volume III

TESTIMONY OF MARRION L. BAKER

The CHAIRMAN. Would you raise your right hand and be sworn please?

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you give before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you God?

Mr. BAKER. I do, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. You may be seated. I will read a little short brief statement to you, Mr. Baker, which will indicate the purpose of our meeting today.

The purpose of today's hearing is to hear the testimony of M. L. Baker, Mrs. R. A. Reid, Eugene Boone, Luke Mooney, and M. N. McDonald. Officer Baker and Mrs. Reid were in the vicinity of the Texas School Book Depository Building at the time of the assassination.

Deputy Sheriffs Boone and Mooney assisted in the search of the sixth floor of the Texas School Depository Building shortly after the assassination and Officer McDonald apprehended Lee Harvey Oswald at the Texas theater.

I read this to you just so you will know the general nature of the inquiry we are making today and we will make of you. Mr. Belin will conduct the examination.

Mr. BELIN. Officer Baker, would you state your legal name, please for the Commission?

Mr. BAKER. Marrion L. Baker.

Mr. BELIN. You are known as M. L. Baker?

Mr. BAKER. That is right, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What is your occupation?

Mr. BAKER. With Dallas Police Department.

Mr. BELIN. How long have you been with the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. BAKER. Almost 10 years.

Mr. BELIN. How old are you, Officer Baker?

Mr. BAKER. Thirty-three.

Mr. BELIN. Where were you born?

Mr. BAKER. In a little town called Blum, Tex.

Mr. BELIN. Did you go to school in Blum, Tex.?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; I think I went to about the sixth grade.

Mr. BELIN. Then where did you go?

Mr. BAKER. We moved to Dallas and I continued schooling at the Roger Q. Mills School Elementary, went to junior high school, I believe it was called Storey, and then I finished high school in Adamson High School.

Mr. BELIN. In Dallas?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do after you graduated from high school?

Mr. BAKER. I think I got married.

The CHAIRMAN. Gentlemen, at this time I must go to the court, we have a session of the court today hearing arguments and Mr. Dulles, you are going to be here through the morning, so if you will conduct the meeting from this time on.

Excuse me, gentlemen.

(At this point, the Chief Justice left the hearing room.)

Mr. BELIN. After you got married, sir, what did you do. I mean in the way of vocation?

Mr. BAKER. I took up a job as a sheetmetal man at the Continental Tin Co.

Mr. BELIN. How long did you work for Continental?

Mr. BAKER. Approximately 3 months.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. BAKER. At that time I quit this job and went to the Ford Motor Co.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do at Ford?

Mr. BAKER. Well, at that time I stayed there approximately 11 months and

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they laid me off and I went to the, I believe they call it Chance Vought at that time, aircraft.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do at Ford, sir?

Mr. BAKER. I was a glass installer, I believe that is what you would call it.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

When you went to this aircraft factory what did you do?

Mr. BAKER. I was a material clerk.

Mr. BELIN. How long did you work for them?

Mr. BAKER. I didn't understand?

Mr. BELIN. How long did you work for the aircraft company?

Mr. BAKER. It seemed like somewhere around a year and a half.

Mr. BELIN. All right, then what did you do?

Mr. BAKER. At that time it. was uncertain out there whether you would stay there or not, they were laying off a few of the men and I went with the neighbor's trailer company which was located in Oak Cliff there.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do there?

Mr. BAKER. I was, I guess you would call it a mechanic. I did a little bit of everything there, I did all the road work, and did all the delivering at that time.

Mr. BELIN. How long did you stay with them?

Mr. BAKER. A little over 3 years.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you. do?

Mr. BAKER. Then I became, I went with the city of Dallas.

Mr. BELIN. With the police department?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you take a course of instruction for the police department?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; I went to the Dallas Police Academy School out there.

Mr. BELIN. How long was this schooling period, approximately?

Mr. BAKER. Four months.

Mr. BELLS. After you were graduated from the Dallas Police Academy, did you right away become a motorcycle policeman or were you first a patrolman or what did you do?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir; at first I was a patrolman and I spent some 23 months in radio patrol division. And then I volunteered solo division.

Mr. BELIN. When you were in this radio car, was this a patrol car where two men would be--

Mr. BAKER. That is right, sir.

Mr. BELIN. And have you been a motorcycle policeman then, say, for the last 7 or 8 years?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; that is pretty close to it.

(At this point, Representative Ford left the hearing room.)

Mr. BELIN. By the way, you use the word solo; generally do people in police cars ride in pairs during the daytime or solos or what?

Mr. BAKER. If you are talking about the squad cars at the time that I worked in the radio patrol division, most of them were two-men squads.

Mr. BELIN. Were there some one-man squads, too?

Mr. BAKER. Very few.

Mr. BELIN. What about today, do you know what the situation is?

Mr. BAKER. They still have, say, very few two-men squads and a lot of one-man squads now.

Mr. BELIN. They have a lot of one-man squads now?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Is that because of a shortage of men for the jobs to cover?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Not because of the procedures?

Mr. BAKER. Now, at night they try to ride them two men.

Mr. BELIN. In the daytime what is the situation now?

Mr. BAKER. Usually the downtown squads which I work are two men, and the outlying squads are one man.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Coming down to November 22, 1963, what was your occupation on that day?

Mr. BAKER. I was assigned to ride a motorcycle.

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Mr. BELIN. And where were you assigned to ride the motorcycle?

Mr. BAKER. At this particular day in the office up there before we went out, I was, my partner and I, we received instructions to ride right beside the President's car.

Mr. BELIN. About when was this that you received these instructions?

Mr. BAKER. Let's see, I believe we went to work early that day, somewhere around 8 o'clock.

Mr. BELIN. And from whom did you receive your original instructions to ride by the side of the President's car?

Mr. BAKER. Our sergeant is the one who gave us the instructions. This is all made up in the captain's office, I believe.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. DULLES. Captain Curry?

Mr. BAKER. Chief Curry; our captain is Captain Lawrence.

Mr. BELIN. Were these instructions ever changed?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. When we got to the airport, our sergeant instructed me that there wouldn't be anybody riding beside the President's car.

Mr. BELIN. Did he tell you why or why not?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir. We had several occasions where we were assigned there and we were moved by request.

Mr. BELIN. On that day, you mean?

Mr. BAKER. Well, that day and several other occasions when I have escorted them.

Mr. BELIN. On that day when did you ride or where were you supposed to ride after this assignment was changed?

Mr. BAKER. They just--the sergeant told us just to fall in beyond it, I believe he called it the press, behind the car.

Mr. BELIN. Beyond the press?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did he tell you this after the President's plane arrived at the airport or was it before?

Mr. BAKER It seemed like it was after he arrived out there.

Mr. BELIN. Had you already seen him get out of the plane?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. About what time was it before the motorcade left that you were advised of this, was it just before or 5 or 10 minutes before, or what?

Mr. BAKER. It was 5 or 10 minutes before.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Then the motorcade left and you rode along on a motorcycle in the motorcade?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Was it a two-wheeler or a three-wheeler?

Mr. BAKER. It was a two-wheeler.

Mr. BELIN. You rode with the motorcade as it traveled through downtown Dallas?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. And eventually what is the fact as to whether or not the motorcade got to Main Street?

Mr. BAKER. You say how fast?

Mr. BELIN. No; did the motorcade get to Main Street in Dallas, was it going down Main Street at anytime?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; it did.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

I wonder if you would pick up your actions with the motorcade as it went down Main Street commencing at, say, Main and Record Streets.

Mr. BAKER. Well, it was the usual escort. We were traveling about somewhere around 5 to 10 miles an hour.

Mr. DULLES. There is a map right behind you.

(Discussion off the record)

Mr. BELIN. Back on the record again.

Mr. DULLES. Would you state exactly where you were riding? We know a good deal about this, the cars the way they were paced. There was a car

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right behind the President's car that followed it, I think 6 or 7 feet right behind the President's car

Mr. BAKER. That was the Secret Service car.

Mr. DULLES. That is right. Were you in that gap between the two cars or what?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir; I was, it seemed to me like, there was this car.

Mr. DULLES. When you say "this car" what do you mean?

Mr. BAKER. That Secret Service car.

Mr. DULLES. The Secret Service car right behind the President?

Mr. BAKER And there was one more car in there.

Mr. DULLES. Behind that?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. That was the Vice President's car, wasn't it?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. And then?

Representative BOGGS. The last press car?

Mr. DULLES. The last press car?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. So you were roughly how far behind the President's car at this stage?

Mr. BAKER. Sometimes we got, at this stage we were possibly a half block.

Mr. DULLES. A half block?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; as I say as I turned the corner the front of it was turning the corner at Elm Street.

Mr. BELIN. You mean as you were turning right from Main on to Houston Street heading north onto Houston, the President's car had already turned to the left off Houston heading down that entrance to the expressway, is that correct?

Mr. BAKER. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

I believe pardon me, Mr. Dulles, does that answer your question?

Mr. DULLES. That answers my question. I wanted to see where he was.

Mr. BELIN. You said you were going down Main Street at around Record at from 5 to 10 miles an hour?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Will you take up your trip from there, please?

Mr. BELIN. How fast would you estimate the speed of your motorcycle as you turned the corner, if you know?

Mr. BAKER. I would say--it wasn't very fast. I almost lost balance, we were just creeping along real slowly.

Mr. DULLES. That is turning from Main into Houston?

Mr. BAKER. That is right, sir.

Mr. BELIN. You turned-do you have any actual speed estimate as you turned that corner at all or just you would say very slow?

Mr. BAKER. I would say from around 5 to 6 or 7 miles an hour, because you can't hardly travel under that and you know keep your balance.

Mr. BAKER. Due north.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Now, tell us what happened after you turned on to Houston Street?

Mr. BAKER. AS I got myself straightened up there, I guess it took me some 20, 30 feet, something like that, and it was about that time that I heard these shots come out.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Could you just tell us what you heard and what you saw and what you did?

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Mr. BAKER. As I got, like I say as I got straightened up there, I was, I don't know when these shots started coming off, I just--it seemed to me like they were high, and I just happened to look right straight up---

Mr. DULLES. I wonder if you would just tell us on that chart and I will try to follow with the record where you were at this time, you were coming down Houston.

Mr. BELIN. Sir, if you can--I plan to get that actual chart in a minute. If we could----

Mr. DULLES. I want to see where he was vis-a-vis the building on the chart there.

Mr. BAKER. This is Main Street and this is Houston. This is the corner that I am speaking of; I made the right turn here. The motorcade and all, as I was here turning the front car was turning up here, and as I got somewhere about right here----

Mr. DULLES. That is halfway down the first block.

Mr. BELIN. No, sir; can I interrupt you for a minute?

Mr. DULLES. Certainly.

Mr. BELIN. Officer Baker, when we were in Dallas on March 20, Friday, you walked over with me and showed me about the point you thought your motorcycle was when you heard the first shot, do you remember doing that?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. And then we paced this off measuring it from a distance which could be described as the north curbline of Main Street as extended?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; that would be this one right across here.

Mr. BELIN. And we paced it off as to where you thought your motorcycle was when you heard the first shot and do you remember offhand about where you said this was as to what distance it was, north of the north curbline of Main Street?

Mr. DULLES. Thank you.

Mr. BELIN. Does that answer your question?

Mr. DULLES. That answers my question entirely.

Mr. BELIN. In any event you heard the first shot, or when you heard this noise did you believe it was a shot or did you believe it was something else?

Mr. BAKER. It hit me all at once that it was a rifle shot because I had just got back from deer hunting and I had heard them pop over there for about a week.

Mr. BELIN. What kind of a weapon did it sound like it was coming from?

Mr. BAKER. It sounded to me like it was a high-powered rifle.

Mr. BELIN. All right. When you heard the first shot or the first noise, what did you do and what did you see?

Mr. BAKER. Well, to me, it sounded high and I immediately kind of looked up, and I had a feeling that it came from the building, either right in front of me or of the one across to the right of it.

Mr. BELIN. What would the building right in front of you be?

Mr. BAKER. It would be this Book Depository Building.

Mr. BELIN. That would be the building located on what corner of Houston and Elm?

Mr. BAKER. That would be the northwest corner.

Mr. BELIN. All right. And you thought it was either from that building or the building located where?

Mr. BAKER. On the northeast corner.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Did you see or hear or do anything else after you heard the first noise?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. As I was looking up, all these pigeons began to fly up to the top of the buildings here and I saw those come up and start flying around.

Mr. BELIN. From what building, if you know, do you think those pigeons came from?

Mr. BAKER. I wasn't sure, but I am pretty sure they came from the building right on the northwest corner.

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Mr. BELIN. Then what did you see or do?

Mr. BAKER. Well, I immediately revved that motorcycle up and was going up there to see if I could help anybody or see what was going on because I couldn't see around this bend.

Mr. BELIN. Well, between the time you revved up the motorcycle had you heard any more shots?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; I heard--now before I revved up this motorcycle, I heard the, you know, the two extra shots, the three shots.

Mr. BELIN. Do you have any time estimate as to the spacing of any of these shots?

Mr. BAKER. It seemed to me like they just went bang, bang, bang; they were pretty well even to me.

Mr. BELIN. They were pretty well even.

Anything else between the time of the first shot and the time of the last shot that you did up to the time or saw--

Mr. BAKER No, sir; except I was looking up and I could tell it was high and I was looking up there and I saw those pigeons flying around there.

Mr. BELIN. Did you notice anything in either of those two buildings either on the northeast or northwest corner of Houston and Elm?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BELIN. Were you looking at any of those windows?

Mr. BAKER. I kind of glanced over them, but I couldn't see anything.

Mr. BELIN. How many shots did you hear?

Mr. BAKER. Three.

Mr. BELIN. All right. After the third shot, then, what did you do?

Mr. BAKER. Well, I revved that motorcycle up and I went down to the corner which would be approximately 180 to 200 feet from the point where we had first stated, you know, that we heard the shots.

Mr. BELIN. What distance did you state? What we did on Friday afternoon, we paced off from the point you thought you heard the first shot to the point at which you parked the motorcycle, and this paced off to how much?

Mr. BELIN. That is where you parked the motorcycle?

Mr. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

I wonder if we could go on this plat, Officer Baker, and first if you could put on here with this pen, and I have turned it upside down.

With Exhibit 361, show us the spot at which you stopped your motorcycle approximately and put a "B" on it, if you would.

Mr. BAKER. Somewhere at this position here, which is approximately 10 feet from this signal light here on the northwest corner of Elm and Houston.

You have put a dot on Exhibit 361 with the line going to "B" and the dot represents that signal light, is that correct

Mr. BAKER. That is right, sir.

Mr. BELIN. You, on Friday, March 20, parked your motorcycle where you thought it was parked on November 22 and then we paced off the distance from the nearest point of the motorcycle to the stop light and it was 10 feet, is that correct?

Mr. BAKER. That is correct, sir.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Now, I show you Exhibit 478 and ask you if you will, on this exhibit put an arrow with the letter "B" to this stoplight.

Mr. BAKER. Talking about this one here?

Mr. BELIN. The stoplight from which we measured the distance to the motorcycle. The arrow with the letter "B" points to the stoplight, is that correct?

Mr. BAKER. That is correct, sir.

Mr. BELIN. And you stopped your motorcycle 10 feet to the east of that stoplight, is that correct?

Mr. BAKER. That is correct, sir.

Mr. BELIN. We then paced off the distance as to approximately how far it

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was from the place your motorcycle was parked to the doorway of the School Book Depository Building, do you remember doing that, on March 20?

Mr. BAKER, Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. And it appears on Exhibit 477 that that doorway is recessed, is that correct?

Mr. BAKER. That is correct, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember how far that was from the place your motorcycle was parked to the doorway?

Mr. BAKER. Approximately 45 feet.

Mr. BELIN. This same stoplight appears as you look at Exhibit 477 to the left of the entranceway to the building, is that correct?

Mr. BAKER. That is correct, sir.

Mr. BELIN. After you parked your motorcycle, did you notice anything that was going on in the area?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. As I parked here

Mr. BELIN. You are pointing on Exhibit 361 to the place that you have marked with "B."

Mr. BAKER_. And I was looking westward which would be in this direction.

Mr. BELIN. By that, you are pointing down the entrance to the freeway and kind of what I will call the peninsula of the park there?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Toward the triple underpass.

Representative BOGGS. Where is the underpass?

Mr. BAKER. The underpass is down here. This is really Elm Street, and this would be Main and Commerce and they all come together here, and there is a triple overpass.

Representative BOGGS. Right.

Mr. BAKER. At this point, I looked down here as I was parking my motorcycle and these people on this ground here, on the sidewalk, there were several of them falling, and they were rolling around down there, and all these people were rushing back, a lot of them were grabbing their children, and I noticed one, I didn't know who he was, but there was a man ran out into the crowd and back.

Mr. BELIN. Did you notice anything else?

Mr. BAKER. Except there was a woman standing--well, all these people were running, and there was a woman screaming, "Oh, they have shot that man, they have shot that man."

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Now, you are on Exhibit 361, and you are pointing to people along the area or bordering the entrance to that expressway and that bit of land lying to the west and north, as to where you describe these people, is that correct?

Mr. BAKER. That is correct, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Would you mark where the overpass would be, right at the end of those lines, just so we get oriented on it.

Mr. BELIN. I am trying to see down here.

Mr. DULLES. I just wanted to get a general idea.

Mr. BELIN. On Exhibit 361, sir, it wouldn't show but it basically would be off in this direction coming down this way. The entrance to the freeway would go down here and the overpass would roughly be down here.

Mr. DULLES. As far as that?

Mr. BELIN. Yes, sir; I think Mr. Redlich is going to get a picture that will better describe it.

Mr. DULLES. All right.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Is there anything else you saw there, Officer Baker, before you ran to the building?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir; not at that time.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Then what did you do after surveying the situation?

Mr. BAKER. I had it in mind that the shots came from the top of this building here.

Mr. BELIN. By this building, you are referring to what?

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Mr. BAKER. The Book Depository Building.

Mr. BELIN. Go on.

Representative BOGGS. You were parked right in front of the Building?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; ran right straight to it.

Representative BOGGS. Right.

Let me ask you a question. How far away, approximately, were these people who were running and falling and so forth from the entrance to the Building?

Mr. BAKER. Well, now, let me say this. From this position here.

Mr. BELIN. That is position "B" on Exhibit 361?

Mr. BAKER. There were people running all over this here.

Mr. BELIN. And you are pointing to the street and the parkway all in front of the School Building?

Mr. BAKER. You see, it looked to me like there were maybe 500 or 600 people in this area here.

Representative BOGGS. Yes.

Mr. BAKER. As those shots rang out, why they started running, you know, every direction, just trying to get back out of the way.

Mr. DULLES. For the record, by this area right here, you have that little peninsula between the Elm Street extension and the Building?

Mr. BAKER. That is right. This little street runs down in front of the building down here to the property of the railroad tracks and this is all a parkway.

Mr. DULLES. Yes. I just wanted to get it for the record.

Mr. BELIN. You then ran into the Building, is that correct?

Mr. BAKER. That is correct, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What did you see and what did you do as you ran into the building?

Mr. BAKER. As I entered this building, there was, it seems to me like there was outside doors and then there is a little lobby.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. BAKER. And then there are some inner doors and another door you have to go through, a swinging door type.

As I entered this lobby there were people going in as I entered. And I asked, I just spoke out and asked where the stairs or elevator was, and this man, Mr. Truly, spoke up and says, it seems to me like he says, "I am a building manager. Follow me, officer, and I will show you." So we immediately went out through the second set of doors, and we ran into the swinging door.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Now, during the course of running into the swinging door, did you bump into the back of Mr. Truly?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. BELIN. Then what happened?

Mr. BAKER. We finally backed up and got through that little swinging door there and we kind of all ran, not real fast but, you know, a good trot, to the back of the Building, I was following him.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Then what did you do?

Mr. BAKER. We went to the northwest corner, we was kind of on the, I would say, the southeast corner of the Building there where we entered it, and we went across it to the northwest corner which is in the rear, back there.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. BAKER. And he was trying to get that service elevator down there.

Mr. BELIN. All right. What did you see Mr. Truly do?

Mr. BAKER. He ran over there and pushed the button to get it down.

Mr. BELIN. Did the elevator come down after he pushed the button?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir; it didn't.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did he do?

Mr. BAKER. He hollered for it, said, "Bring that elevator down here."

Mr. BELIN. How many times did he holler, to the best of your recollection?

Mr. BAKER. It seemed like he did it twice.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Then what did he do?

Mr. BAKER. I said let's take the stairs.

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Mr. BELIN. All right. Then what did you do?

Mr. BAKER. He said, "Okay" and so he immediately turned around, which the stairs is just to the, would be to the, well, the west of this elevator.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. BAKER. And we went up them.

Mr. BELIN. You went up the stairs then?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. When you started up the stairs what was your intention at that--

Mr. BAKER. My intention was to go all the way to the top where I thought the shots had come from, to see if I could find something there, you know, to indicate that.

Mr. BELIN. And did you go all the way up to the top of the stairs right away?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir; we didn't.

Mr. BAKER. What happened?

Mr. BAKER. As I came out to the second floor there, Mr. Truly was ahead of me, and as I come out I was kind of scanning, you know, the rooms, and I caught a glimpse of this man walking away from this--I happened to see him through this window in this door. I don't know how come I saw him, but I had a glimpse of him coming down there.

Mr. DULLES. Where was he coming from, do you know?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir. All I seen of him was a glimpse of him go away from me.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do then?

Mr. BAKER. I ran on over there

Representative BOGGS. You mean where he was?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. There is a door there with a glass, it seemed to me like about a 2 by 2, something like that, and then there is another door which is 6 foot on over there, and there is a hallway over there and a hallway entering into a lunchroom, and when I got to where I could. see him he was walking away from me about 20 feet away from me in the lunchroom.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do?

Mr. BAKER. I hollered at him at that time and said, "Come here."He turned and walked right straight back to me.

Mr. BELIN. Where were you at the time you hollered?

Mr. BAKER. I was standing in the hallway between this door and the second door, right at the edge of the second door.

Mr. BELIN. He walked back toward you then?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BAKER. This 24 would be the position where I was standing.

Mr. BELIN. The arrow which is represented by No. 24, is that correct?

Mr. BAKER. That is correct.

On Exhibit 497. When you first saw him in which direction was he walking?

Mr. BAKER. He was walking east.

Mr. BELIN. Was--his back was away from you, or not, as you first saw him?

Mr. BAKER. As I first caught that glimpse of him, or as I saw him, really saw him?

Mr. BELIN. As you really saw him.

Mr. BAKER. He was walking away from me with his back toward me.

Mr. DULLES. Can I suggest if you will do this, put on there where the officer was and where Lee Oswald was, or the man who turned out to be Lee Oswald, and which direction he was walking in. I think that is quite important.

Mr. BELIN. Yes, sir. We are going to get to that with one more question, if I can, sir. When you saw him, he then turned around, is that correct, and then walked back toward you?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

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Mr. BAKER. He had nothing at that time.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Were you carrying anything in either of your hands?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; I was.

Mr. BELIN. What were you carrying?

Mr. BAKER. I had my revolver out.

Mr. BELIN. When did you take your revolver out?

Mr. BAKER. AS I was starting up the stairway.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Now, turning to Exhibit 497, if you would approximate on Exhibit 497 with a pen the point at which you saw this man in the lunch room when you told him to turn around.

Mr. DULLES. Could we get first where he first saw him.

Representative BOGGS. You have that already.

Mr. DULLES. I don't think you have it on the chart where he was.

Mr. BELIN. This is when he first saw him after he got in the room, sir. If I can go off the record.

Mr. DULLES. What I wanted to get is where he first saw him as he was standing down here, as he was going up the stairs and stopped and then in what direction he was--he seemed to be moving at that time before he saw.

Mr. BELIN. Just answer the question, if you will. Where were you when you first caught a glimpse of this man?

Mr. BAKER. I was just coming up these stairs just around this corner right here.

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Where was he when you first saw him?

Mr. BAKER. At this doorway right here, this 23.

Mr. BELIN. At 23.

Representative BOGGS. May I ask a couple of questions because I have to--

Mr. BELIN. Surely.

Representative BOGGS. Were you suspicious of this man?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir; I wasn't.

Representative BOGGS. And he came up to you, did he say anything to you?

Mr. BAKER. Let me start over. I assumed that I was suspicious of everybody because I had my pistol out.

Representative BOGGS. Right.

Mr. BAKER. And as soon as I saw him, I caught a glimpse of him and I ran over there and opened that door and hollered at him.

Representative BOGGS. Right.

Mr. DULLES. He had not seen you up to that point probably?

Mr. BAKER. I don't know whether he had or not.

Representative BOGGS. He came up to you?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; and when I hollered at him he turned around and walked back to me.

Representative BOGGS. Right close to you?

Mr. BAKER. And we were right here at this position 24, right here in this doorway.

Representative BOGGS. Right. What did you say to him?

Mr. BAKER. I didn't get anything out of him. Mr. Truly had come up to my side here, and I turned to Mr. Truly and I says, "Do you know this man, does he work here?" And he said yes, and I turned immediately and went on out up the stairs.

Mr. BELIN. Then you continued up the stairway?

Representative BOGGS. Let me ask one other question. You later, when you recognized this man as Lee Oswald, is that right, saw pictures of him?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. I had occasion to see him in the homicide office later that evening after we got through with Parkland Hospital and then Love Field and we went back to the City Hall and I went up there and made this affidavit.

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Representative BOGGS. After he had been arrested?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Could you tell us anything more about his appearance, what he was doing, get an impression of the man at all? Did he seem to be hurrying, anything of that kind?

Mr. BELIN. What door number on that?

Mr. BAKER. This would be 23.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. BAKER And at that position there he was already down here some 20 feet away from me.

Representative BOGGS. When you saw him, was he out of breath, did he appear to have been running or what?

Mr. BAKER. It didn't appear that to me. He appeared normal you know.

Representative BOGGS. Was he calm and collected?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. He never did say a word or nothing. In fact, he didn't change his expression one bit.

Mr. BELIN. Did he flinch in anyway when you put the gun up in his face?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir.

Mr. DULLES. There is no testimony that he put the gun up in his face.

Mr. BAKER. I had my gun talking to him like this.

Mr. DULLES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. How close was your gun to him if it wasn't the face whatever part of the body it was?

Mr. BAKER. About as far from me to you.

Mr. BELIN. That would be about how far?

Mr. BAKER. Approximately 3 feet.

Mr. BELIN. Did you notice, did he say anything or was there any expression after Mr. Truly said he worked here?

Mr. BAKER. At that time I never did look back toward him. After he says, "Yes, he works here," I turned immediately and run on up, I halfway turned then when I was talking to Mr. Truly.

How long would you say it was from the time that you first heard the shots until that episode occurred?

Mr. BAKER. We went back and made two trial runs on that, and---

Mr. BELIN. Was that on Friday, March 20?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. BAKER. And the first run we made it was a minute and 30 seconds, and--

Mr. DULLES. Will you say from what time to what time, from the last shot?

Mr. BAKER. From the last shot.

Mr. BELIN. The first shot.

Mr. DULLES. The first shot?

Mr. BAKER. The first shot.

We simulated the shots and by the time we got there, we did everything that I did that day, and this would be the minimum, because I am sure that I, you know. it took me a little longer.

Mr. DULLES. I want to get clear in my mind and for the record, it started at the first shot and when did it terminate, when you saw Oswald?

Mr. BAKER. When we saw Oswald.

Mr. DULLES. When you saw Oswald?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. And that time is how much?

Mr. BAKER. The first run would be a minute and 30 seconds, and then we did it over, and we did it in a minute and 15 seconds.

(At this point, Representative Boggs left the hearing room.)

Mr. BELIN. Were we walking or running when we did this?

Mr. BAKER The first time we did it a little bit slower, and the second time we hurried it up a little bit.

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Mr. BELIN. Were we running or walking, when we moved, did we run or walk?

Mr. BAKER. From the time I got off the motorcycle we walked the first time and then we kind of run the second time from the motorcycle on into the building.

Mr. BELIN. All right. When we got inside the building did we run or trot or walk?

Mr. BAKER. Well, we did it at kind of a trot, I would say, it wasn't a real fast run, an open run. It was more of a trot, kind of.

Mr. BELIN. You mentioned the relationship between what we did on March 20 and what actually occurred on November 22. Would you estimate that what we did on March 20 was the maximum or the minimum as for the time you took?

Mr. BAKER I would say it would be the minimum.

Mr. BELIN. For instance, on March 20 did we do anything about trying to get through any people on the front steps of the building at all? Did we slow down at all for that?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did we slow down at all on March 20 for the time it took you to look over the scene as to what was happening in the area down Elm Street and the Parkway?

Mr. BAKER No, sir.

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; we did.

Mr. BELIN. With the stopwatch?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did we make any or do any stopwatch tests about any route from the southeast corner of the sixth floor down to the lunchroom?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; we made two test runs.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Do you remember what the route was?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; we started on the sixth floor on the east side of the building.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. BAKER. We walked down the east wall.

Mr. BELIN. We started at that particular corner?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; we started in the southeast corner.

Mr. BELIN. All right. We walked down the east wall, you say?

Mr. BAKER. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. All right, then where did we go?

Mr. BAKER. To the north wall and then we walked down the north wall to the west side of where the stairs was.

Mr. BELIN. All right, we walked from the southeast corner to the northeast corner?

Mr. BAKER That is right.

Mr. BELIN. Then along the northeast corner, around the elevators, do you remember who was with us when we did this?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. There was, it seems to me like his name was John--anyway, he was a Secret Service man.

Mr. BELIN. John Howlett.

Mr. BAKER. John Howlett. That is right, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did Mr. Howlett simulate anyone putting a gun in any particular place?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; he did.

Mr. BELIN. And then what did we do when we got to the where did he do that, do you remember?

Mr. BAKER. That would be as we approached the stairway, there were some cases of books on the left- hand side there.

Mr. BELIN. All right. And Secret Service Agent Howlett went over to these books and leaned over as if he were putting a rifle there?

Mr. BAKER. That is right, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did he do?

Mr. BAKER. Then we continued on down the stairs.

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Mr. BELIN. To the lunchroom?

Mr. BAKER. That is right, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember how long that took?

Mr. BAKER. The first run with normal walking took us a minute and 18 seconds.

Mr. BELIN. What about the second time?

Mr. BAKER. And the second time we did it at a fast walk which took us a minute and 14 seconds.

Mr. BELIN. You saw the stopwatch on all of these timing occasions when it was started and when it was stopped, is that correct?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. BELIN. Now, I want to go back to the sixth floor a minute with Mr. Dulles' questions.

Mr. DULLES. Can we go off the record here one moment?

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. BELIN. On the record.

Officer Baker, when you related your story earlier you said that as you ran back on the first floor you first ran to the elevator shaft, is that correct?

Mr. BAKER. That is right, sir.

Mr. BELIN. And you stopped at the east or the west elevator door?

Mr. BAKER. That would be the west.

Mr. BELIN. All right. This was on the first floor, and did you look up the elevator shaft at that time?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; at that time I did.

Mr. BELIN. This was while Mr. Truly was calling for the elevator?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Was there any kind of a gate between you and the elevator shaft?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; there was.

Mr. BELIN. Wood or metal, do you remember?

Mr. BAKER. It is wood.

Mr. BELIN. What did you see when you looked up the elevator shaft?

Mr. BAKER. At that time I thought there was just one elevator there, you know, one big freight elevator, and to me they looked like they were up there, I didn't know how many floors in that building but you could see them up there, it looked like just at that time, I thought it was just one, when I looked up there, and it looked to me anywhere from three to four floors up.

Mr. BELIN. Was either elevator moving at the time or--pardon me, was there any elevator moving at the time you saw and looked up the shaft?

Mr. BAKER No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you hear any elevator moving?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Truly pushed the button, I believe you said.

Mr. BAKER. That is right, sir.

Mr. BELIN. When he pushed the button did any elevator start moving?

Mr. BAKER No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. When you looked up the elevator shaft did it appear as if there was one elevator covering the complete shaft or did it appear there was one elevator that you saw covering half of the shaft?

Mr. BAKER. Like I say, I thought it was one elevator there and it was covering the whole deal up there so to me it appeared to be one.

Mr. BELIN. It didn't appear to be two elevators on different floors?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Now, you got up to floor number two at the time and

you did that with the stairs.

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. At the time you got up there was there any elevator on floor number two that you can remember, if you can remember? Maybe you cannot remember, I don't know.

Mr. BAKER. Evidently--now, I didn't look, evidently it wasn't because it seemed to me like the next floor up Mr. Truly said let's take the elevator.

Mr. BAKER. At some higher floor after that?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

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(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. BELIN. Officer Baker, first of all, handing you what the court reporter has marked as Exhibit 498, I would like you to state if you know whether or not this appears to be the door leading from the second floor hallway into the vestibule going into the lunchroom.

Mr. BAKER Yes, sir; it does.

Mr. BELIN. Is this the door through which you glanced as you came around the stairs coming up from the first floor?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What did you see that caused you to turn away from going up to the third floor?

Mr. BAKER As I came out of that stairway running, Mr. Truly had already gone on around, see, and I don't know, as I come around----

Mr. DULLES. Gone on around and up?

Mr. BAKER He had already started around the bend to come to the next elevation going up, I was coming out this one on the second floor, and I don't know, I was kind of sweeping this area as I come up, I was looking from right to left and as I got to this door here I caught a glimpse of this man, just, you know, a sudden glimpse, that is all it was now, and it looked to me like he was going away from me.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Then what did you do?

Mr. BAKER I ran on up here and opened this door and when I got this door opened I could see him walking on down.

Mr. DULLES. Had he meanwhile gone on through the door ahead of you?

Mr. BELIN. You are pointing by "this door" to the door on Exhibit 498?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. You mean you might have seen him as he was opening and going through the door almost?

Mr. BAKER Well, to me it was the back of it. Now, through this window you can't see too much but I just caught a glimpse of him through this window going away from me and as I ran to this door and opened it, and looked on down in the lunchroom he was on down there about 20 feet so he was moving about as fast as I was.

Mr. DULLES. How far were you as you left the stairwell, the stairway----

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. From that door through which you eventually went through and then saw Oswald?

Mr. BAKER. I would say that was approximately 15, 20 feet, something like that.

Mr. BELIN. All right. On Exhibit 499 is this a picture of the lunchroom?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; it is.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know what direction the camera is pointing to take this picture?

Mr. BAKER. It would be pointed eastward.

Mr. BELIN. All right. I see a coke machine off on the left. When you saw Oswald after you got to this doorway inside the lunchroom, had he gone as far as the coke machine?

Mr. BAKER. I didn't notice the coke machine or any item in the room there All I was looking at was the man, and he seemed to be approximately 20 feet down there from me.

Mr. BELIN. As you got to the doorway which on Exhibit 497 is marked as number, what number is that, you are referring to this number 24 here?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Now, with relation to Exhibit 497 perhaps you can try to trace your route as you came out from the stairway, as to the route you took and the point you were when you first caught a glimpse of some movement through that window or door?

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I was just stepping out on to the second floor when I caught this glimpse of this man through this doorway.

letter "B" on Exhibit 497 when you first saw the movement.

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. And then you, from that point, could you kind of trace your route to the

Mr. DULLES. Could I ask one question before you ask this question, and this is a bit of a leading question, and think carefully.

If Oswald had been coming down the stairs and going into the lunchroom would he have been following the course insofar as you saw a course, that he--that you saw him follow?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. The reason I say that, this hallway to the right.

Mr. BELIN. By the right you mean the hallway that goes to the-- this is--

Mr. BAKER. This is a hallway right here.

Mr. BELIN. It is a hallway that has the number 27 on it?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; from what I understand these are offices in there.

Mr. DULLES. Yes.

Mr. BAKER. And he had no business in there and the lunchroom would be the only place that he would be going, and there is a door out here that you can get out and to the other part of the building.

Mr. BELIN. I think Mr. Dulles' question relates to whether or not any person would have taken a stairway or elevator to have gotten to that point, is that correct?

Mr. DULLES. Yes; that is correct. I am clear as you come up the stairs you take a certain course you would go into the lunchroom.

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. I am not quite clear as to where you would end up on the second floor as you come down the stairs, is it the same point?

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Dulles, if you will look on Exhibit 497, the stairway appears to be the same stairway. You see the letter, the arrow, 21, points to the stairway going up to the third floor which, of course, would be the same stairway going down from the third floor and on the building.

Mr. DULLES. You would cross if you were going up and down, you would cross right there at the same point?

Mr. BELIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. And if a man were going up the stairs and then going to the lunchroom and then coming down the stairs and going to the lunchroom, he would be approximately following the same course from the time he got off the stairs and went into that room before you get to the lunchroom.

Mr. BELIN. Yes, sir.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. BAKER. That is correct, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Could you trace your route from point "B" to the doorway 23, if you would, sir.

Mr. BAKER. I ran right straight across here and through this doorway and this is approximately where, I would say 23 here, is approximately where I looked through this lunchroom and saw a man on down here.

Mr. BELIN. All right. I am going to put an arrow at that point on Exhibit 497, and this arrow in pen, I am going to put a "B-I" and, at that arrow which is just to the left of the circle with the number 24 in it you say you then looked through the doorway and saw a man in the lunchroom, right?

Mr. BAKER Yes, sir; walking away from me.

Mr. BELIN. Walking away from you. And then where did you move from point "B-I"?

Mr. BAKER. I moved on to this position 24 right here in this doorway.

Mr. BELIN. All right. I am going to put--you have put an "X" there, and

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I am going to put that on Exhibit 497 as an arrow pointing to it, with "B.-2". Is this where you stood when you called to the man to come back to you?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you move from that time until the man came up to you?

Mr. BAKER. As I called, I remember moving forward a little bit and meeting him right here in this doorway.

Mr. BELIN. As you called you say you remembered moving forward. and. meeting him right in the doorway which would be marked with the arrow with number 24 on it on Exhibit 497, is that right?

Mr. BAKER. That is right, sir.

Mr. BAKER. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you notice what clothes the man was wearing as he came up to you?

Mr. BAKER. At that particular time I was looking at his face, and it seemed to me like he had a light brown jacket on and maybe some kind of white-looking shirt.

Anyway, as I noticed him walking away from me, it was kind of dim in there that particular day, and it was hanging out to his side.

Mr. BELIN. Handing you what has been marked as Commission Exhibit 150, would this appear to be anything that you have ever seen before?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; I believe that is the shirt that he had on when he came. I wouldn't be sure of that. It seemed to me like that other shirt was a little bit darker than that whenever I saw him in the homicide office there.

Mr. BELIN. What about when you saw him in the School Book Depository Building, does this look familiar as anything he was wearing, if you know?

Mr. BAKER. I couldn't say whether that was--it seemed to me it was a light-colored brown but I couldn't say it was that or not.

Mr. DULLES. Lighter brown did you say, I am just asking what you said. I couldn't quite hear.

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; all I can remember it was in my recollection of it it was a light brown jacket.

Mr. BELIN. Are you referring to this Exhibit 150 as being similar to the jacket or similar to the shirt that you saw or, if not, similar to either one?

Mr. BAKER. Well, it would be similar in color to it--I assume it was a jacket, it was hanging out. Now, I was looking at his face and I wasn't really paying any attention. After Mr. Truly said he knew him, so I didn't pay any attention to him, so I just turned and went on.

Mr. BELIN. Now, you did see him later at the police station, is that correct?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Was he wearing anything that looked like Exhibit 150 at the police station?

Mr. BAKER. He did have a brown-type shirt on that was out.

Mr. BELIN. Did it appear to be similar to any clothing you had seen when you saw him at the School Book Depository Building?

Mr. BAKER. I could have mistaken it for a jacket, but to my recollection it was a little colored jacket, that is all I can say.

Mr. DULLES. You saw Oswald later in the lineup or later

Mr. BAKER. I never did have a chance to see him in the lineup. I saw him when I went to give the affidavit, the statement that I saw him down there, of the actions of myself and Mr. Truly as we went into the building and on up what we are discussing now.

(At this point Senator Cooper entered the hearing room.)

Mr. BELIN. Officer Baker

Mr. DULLES. I didn't get clearly in mind, I am trying to check up, as to whether you saw Oswald maybe in the same costume later in the day. Did you see Oswald later in the day of November 22d?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. DULLES. Under what circumstances? Don't go into detail, I just want to tie up these two situations.

Mr. BAKER. As I was in the homicide office there writing this, giving this affidavit, I got hung in one of those little small offices back there, while the

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Secret Service took Mr. Oswald in there and questioned him and I couldn't get out by him while they were questioning him, and I did get to see him at that time.

Mr. DULLES. You saw him for a moment at that time?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BAKER. That is right, sir.

Mr. BELIN. How long did you stay in the lunchroom after Truly identified this person as being an employee?

Mr. BAKER. Just momentarily. As he said, "Yes, he works here," I turned and went on up the stairs.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Do you have any time estimate as to the period of time that elapsed between the time that you first got to the head of the stairs and saw some movement through that first doorway and the time you left-to go back up to the flight of stairs going to the third floor?

Mr. BAKER. I would say approximately maybe 30 seconds, something like that. It was a real quick interview, you know, and then I left.

Mr. BELIN. All right. As you left, did you notice whether or not the man in the lunchroom did anything or started moving anywhere?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir. As I left he was still in the position that he was when. ever I was facing him.

Mr. BELIN. You then went where?

Mr. BAKER. I immediately turned and went on, started on, up the stairways.

Mr. BELIN. All right. After going up the stairways, do you know what numbered floor it was---I will ask you this, did you take the stairway all the way to the top?

Mr. BAKER No, sir; we caught that elevator, it seemed like we went up either one or two floors, and Mr. Truly said "Let's take the elevator, here it is."

Mr. BELIN. Did you take an east or west elevator?

Mr. BAKER. We took the east elevator.

Mr. BELIN. Now, the nearest elevator to you when you got off a flight of stairs would have been the east or the west?

Mr. BAKER The west.

Mr. BELIN. When You got off the flight of stairs Mr. Truly said, "Here is an elevator," did the west elevator appear to be there?

Mr. BAKER. I didn't notice. I was looking around over the building at the time he said, "Let's take the elevator" and I just followed him on around.

Mr. BELIN. You went to an east elevator?

Mr. BAKER. That is right, sir.

Mr. BELIN. How far did it appear you rode up the elevator?

Mr. BAKER. It was a. short ride. We just, either went one or two floors. I couldn't remember. I was still looking at the floors, you know, as we went up.

Mr. BELIN. As you rode up on the elevator, did you notice whether or not you passed the elevator on the west side?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir; I didn't notice.

Mr. BELIN. Did you notice or hear anything to indicate that the elevator on the west side might have been moving?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you take the east elevator as far as it would go?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; we did.

Mr. BELIN. And then what did you do?

Mr. BAKER. We had to walk up another flight of stairs to get up to the top floor.

Mr. BELIN. To get up to the roof?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. When you got off on the seventh floor or the top floor--

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you notice whether or not the other elevator was there?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BELIN. You didn't notice. You got off the east elevator and then what did you do?

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Mr. BAKER. We walked up the flight of stairs to the top.

Mr. BELIN. To the top. What did you do when you got to the top?

Mr. BAKER. We went out on the roof.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do on the roof?

Mr. BAKER. I immediately went around all the sides of the ledges up there, and after I got on top I found out that a person couldn't shoot off that roof because when you stand up you have to put your hands like this, at the top of that ledge and if you wanted to see over you would have to tiptoe to see over it.

Mr. DULLES. If you look right behind you, Officer, you will see a picture and you might point out what the top wall that is shown on that photograph of the building is how high?

Mr. BAKER. Well, it is about 5 feet. I know I had to put my hand on top of it and tiptoe to see over it.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Mr. Dulles is referring to the picture of the School Book Depository building on Exhibit 362 and in demonstrating before the Commission as to where your hands were about how high are they in relation to your shoulders or mouth or chin or what-have-you?

Mr. BAKER. Approximately 5 feet.

Mr. BELIN. Your hands are 5 feet high? Did you go over just to one roof side or to all sides of the roof?

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. BAKER. And then I ran, kind of running walk, went all the way around. First I glanced over this side here, because the last thing I heard here on the radio was the chief saying, "Get some men up on that railroad track."

Mr. BELIN. Did you hear that on your police radio?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; that was the last thing I heard.

Mr. BELIN. As you were getting off your motorcycle?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Senator COOPER. I didn't hear what he said he heard on the radio?

Mr. BAKER. I heard Chief Curry, the chief of the police over there, say, "Get some men over on the railroad track." I think everyone at that time thought these shots came from the railroad track.

Mr. BELIN. By "everyone" do you include you, too?

Mr. BAKER. No, Sir. I had it--I was in a better position due to the wind and you know under it, that I knew it was directly ahead, and up, and it either had to be this building here or this one over here.

Mr. BELIN. You are pointing to either the first building, you are pointing to the School Book Depository Building, and the second one you are pointing to is the one across the street. When you heard this announcement on your radio was it while you were parking your motorcycle?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Go ahead, if you would, please. You are on the roof now.

Mr. BELIN. You are saying as you are looking over the south and over the west?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. BAKER. Then after I looked to see what was going on down there, and then I figured out that he wouldn't have shot from that ledge he would have shot from this sign or this old room, building back here on the back side.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Now, you are pointing to Exhibit 362 to the sign on the top of the School Book Depository Building, the Hertz sign, and some kind of a structure on the northeast corner of the building, is that correct?

Mr. BAKER. That is correct.

Mr. BAKER. As I finished going all around this building here and then I came to this sign and I looked up there to see if I could find anybody hiding up

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there and I started up these steps, it is a ladder there on that sign, and I got on, say, 10 feet up there and I came back down, I seen that nobody would shoot from up there. He wouldn't have no place to hold on.

Mr. BELIN. By that you are referring to climbing the ladder to climb up the sign, is that correct?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; this large Hertz sign here.

Mr BELIN. On the top of the School Book Depository Building on Exhibit 362. All right. Then what did you do?

Mr. BAKER. Then I came back down and I went and checked this building right here. It is an old deserted room there of some type.

Mr. BELIN. Some kind of a shack on the northeast corner of the building?

Mr. BAKER. That is right, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Out there. What did you see when you saw that shack?

Mr. BAKER. As I approached it, and looked under it, there wasn't anything under it, and you could tell that pigeons had been roosting there for sometime.

Mr. BELIN. All right. There were indications that pigeons had been roosting there?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. BAKER. No indications that anyone would be around there.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see any pigeons there as you approached it?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir. They had all--at the time I kind of glanced and they were still flying around in the sky up there.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do?

Senator COOPER. You referred to pigeons, did you see some pigeon droppings?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. Had they been disturbed in any way?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. BAKER. At that time I went on back. Mr. Truly was standing over here on this northwest corner and we descended on the stairs there.

Mr. BELIN. You went from the stairs to the roof to where, to the top floor of the building?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got to the top floor of the building?

Mr. BAKER. We walked on down one more flight of stairs and then we caught the same elevator back down.

Mr. DULLES. The top floor was the seventh floor, is it not?

Mr. BAKER. Well, you have one flight of stairs going from the top floor on up.

Mr. DULLES. Yes.

Mr. BAKER. And then we caught the elevator back down, the same elevator that we took up.

Mr. BELIN. When you referred to one flight of stairs, are you referring to the flight of stairs from the roof to the top floor that you took or the flight of stairs from the top floor to the next to the top floor?

Mr. BAKER. Well, there are two flights of stairs there. The one from the roof down to the top floor and then there is another one there.

Mr. BELIN. When you took the elevator back did you take it from the top floor down or from the next to the top floor down?

Mr. BAKER. That elevator to me, it didn't go to the top floor, it goes to the next to the top.

Mr. BELIN. Did you take it as far as it went?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. When--did you take an elevator down or did you take the stairs down?

Mr. BAKER. We took the elevator down.

Mr. BELIN. Did you take the same elevator down you took up or did you take a different elevator down?

Mr. BAKER. We took the same one.

Mr. BELIN. When you went to take that elevator going back down did you notice whether or not the other elevator was there?

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Mr. BAKER. I didn't notice. It would be to my back and I was looking out forward.

Mr. BELIN. It would be to your back from where you came off the stairs going to the roof?

Mr. BAKER. Are you talking about when we got on the elevator?

Mr. BELIN. When you got on the elevator to make the return trip?

Mr. BAKER. There wasn't one there whenever we come around out of the stairway, you know, to get on, you know we had to get on the east side instead of just stepping over on the west elevator.

Mr. BELIN. Officer Baker, I am going to hand you what the court reporter, what the Commission reporter, has marked as Exhibit 507 which purports to be a diagram of the seventh floor of the Texas School Book Depository Building and on that diagram you will see at the top the marks of two elevators and then, what looks to be the south, a stairway marked "Ladder to the roof."

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What is the fact as to whether or not this stairway marked "Ladder to the roof" is the stairway that you took to go to the roof?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; it would be.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Now, when you got off the elevator which you took up to the top floor, which you said was the east elevator?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you have any occasion to notice whether or not the west elevator was on this top floor?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir; I didn't notice it.

Mr. BELIN. You didn't notice whether it was or whether it was not?

Mr. BAKER. That is right, sir?

Mr. BELIN. When you got back down from the roof to this top floor, did you have any occasion to notice whether or not the west elevator was on that top floor or not?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir; I still didn't look at the elevator. I was following Mr. Truly and every time I had a chance I would look around over the building.

Mr. BELIN. You would look over the floor itself rather than the other elevator?

Mr. BAKER. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. You then got on the elevator to go on back down?

Mr. BAKER. That is correct.

Mr. BELIN. And I believe you said it was the east elevator, is that correct?

Mr. BAKER. That is correct.

Mr. BELIN. How far did you take the east elevator down?

Mr. BAKER. As we descended, somewhere around--we were still talking and I was still looking over the building.

Mr. BELIN. As the elevator was moving?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; downward.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. BAKER. The next thing that I noticed was Inspector Sawyer, he was on one of those floors there, he is a police inspector.

Mr. DULLES. City of Dallas Police?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. And he was on, I really didn't notice which floor he was on, but that is the first thing I saw as we descended how this freight elevator, you know, it has got these picket boards in front of it and it has got it open so far, and it seemed to me like we stopped for a moment and I spoke to him and I told him that I had been to the roof, and there wasn't anything on the roof that would indicate anybody being up there, and then we started on down.

Mr. BELIN. Did you stay on the elevator while you spoke to him?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what floor it was that you spoke to him on or how many floors down that you went from the top before you saw him?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir; not at that time. It seemed to me like it was on either the third or the fourth floor.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember about how long you stayed on the roof?

Mr. BAKER. It was a little over 5 minutes.

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Mr. BELIN. When you continued moving on the elevator after you talked to Inspector Sawyer how far did you go on the elevator?

Mr. BAKER. We went to the, I believe it would be the first floor there.

Mr. BELIN. All right. You got off the elevator then?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you leave Mr. Truly or did you stay with him?

Mr. BAKER. I left Mr. Truly there.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. BAKER. I immediately went on out. I was with this motorcade and I went right on straight through the front door and got on my motorcycle and tried to find out what happened to the motorcade.

Mr. BELIN. Officer Baker, when you left the building had the building been sealed off or not?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; there was an officer at the front door.

Mr. BELIN. The officer at the front door, was he stopping people from coming in and out or what?

Mr. BAKER. I assumed that he was but I, you know, just went on out.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

When you got to the first floor on the east elevator did you notice whether the west elevator was there?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BELIN. Was there anything else that you observed in or about the Texas School Book Depository Building at that day that you haven't told us about that you can think of right now?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir; I can't think of anything else.

Mr. BAKER. I would say that I was in there approximately 15 minutes.

Mr. BELIN. And you left there right at the time that you left Mr. Truly on the first floor?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. In this time sequence you mentioned you were on the roof more than 5 minutes, that could be 25 or 30 or 10 or 15 or what?

Mr. BAKER. This, to my recollection, it seemed like I shouldn't have stayed up there over 10 minutes anyway, if that long.

Mr. BELIN. So you would say somewhere between 5 and 10 minutes?

Mr. BAKER. I just ran around up there looking for something; I didn't find it and then we came on down.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Dulles, are there any questions that you have?

Mr. DULLES. I have no more questions. Have you any questions?

Mr. BELIN. Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. BELIN. Officer Baker, I believe you testified that you later saw Lee Harvey Oswald at the police station of the homicide office, is that correct?

Mr. BAKER. That is correct, sir.

. Mr. BELIN. Was this later on that same day?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, it was.

Mr. BAKER. He was the same man.

Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else about his clothes that you can remember or his dress that you haven't talked about here?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir; I can't.

Mr. BAKER. Actually just looking at him, he looked like he didn't have the same thing on.

Mr. BELIN. He looked as though he did not have the same thing on?

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Mr. BAKER. He looked like he did not have the same on.

Senator COOPER. Did you say when you first saw this man walking away from you in the lunchroom, walking away in the opposite direction, that you said for him to come toward you.

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. Did he turn around?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, air; he did.

Mr. DULLES. The officer testified he had a pistol in his hand at that time, Officer Baker?

Senator COOPER. He did have a pistol in his hand?

Mr. BAKER I had the pistol.

Mr. DULLES. Officer Baker had a pistol in his hand.

Senator COOPER. I see. Did he move toward you?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; he did.

Senator COOPER. Was there anything about his appearance that was unusual?

And he said, "Yes," and that is whenever I turned and went on up the stairs. At that time he didn't say a word, he didn't change the expression or nothing on him.

Mr. DULLES. You testified, I believe, that he did not seem to be out of breath?

Mr. BAKER. That is right, sir.

Senator COOPER. He did not show any evidence of any emotion?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir.

Senator COOPER. Did you see anyone else while you were in the building, other than this man you have identified later as Oswald, and Mr. Truly?

Mr. BAKER. On the first floor there were two men. As we came through the main doorway to the elevators, I remember as we tried to get on the elevators I remember two men, one was sitting on this side and another one between 20 or 30 feet away from us looking at us.

Mr. DULLES. Were they white men?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

It is a little bit upside down from the usual top being north.

You will notice here the stairway in the front of the building.

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. And then there is a glass swinging door which I believe is shown there.

Could you mark the point at which you believe you were when you called out for someone to tell you where the stairway or elevator was?

Mr. BAKER Is that the steps on the outside and this is the----

Mr. BELIN. These are the steps on the outside, this is the door, the first door and this is kind of the main lobby here, below the words "Main Entrance."

Mr. BAKER. Well, as you come up the steps, there is a glass door here in front of the building.

Mr. BELIN. Pardon me, this will be the recessed glass door right here swinging?

Mr. BAKER. All of this is the lobby.

Mr. BELIN. Yes, that is all the lobby.

Mr. BAKER. OK. This is the first door that you open to get in.

Mr. BELIN. Yes.

Mr. BAKER. And this is the lobby.

Mr. BELIN. Yes.

Mr. BAKER. And then you have another set of glass doors.

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Mr. BELIN. There is another door right here, yes.

Mr. BAKER. And on through this one you have a swinging door, a little old counter-type door that swings--

Mr. BELIN. This would be the swinging door which would be to the west of the room marked " Mr. Truly's office" on Exhibit 362?

Mr. BAKER. That is right, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Where would you have been when you were yelling would someone tell you about the stain or the elevator?

Mr. BAKER. At this point approximately where the "T" is here.

Mr. BELIN. You would be where the "T" is?

Mr. BAKER. I was standing inside the front doors and I wasn't too far from this door here.

Mr. BELIN. That would be the, what I call the, middle set of doors as you come in, between the front set of doors and the doors by the side of Mr. Truly's office, that little half door there.

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. And you were at the point as marked on Exhibit 362 approximately where the word "T" is.

Mr. BAKER. This lobby, to the best of my recollection, it seemed to me like, would--I would say, about 15 feet wide or something like that.

Mr. BELIN. Yes.

Mr. BAKER. And I had come in there, oh, say, 4 or 5 feet whenever I said, "Where is the stairway or the elevator?"

Mr. BELIN. I wonder if you could show us on Exhibit 362 the route that you took from the first floor to the time you went to the elevator?

Mr. BAKER. I came through the first set of doors, the second set and this second little old counter-type here, and kind of ran through that, from the southwest corner here through this swinging door.

Mr. BELIN. That is by Mr. Truly's office?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; to the northwest corner here.

Mr. BELIN. By the west elevator.

Mr. BAKER. West elevator, that is right.

Mr. BELIN. Would this be roughly along the pen line already in there, would you estimate?

. Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; that is pretty close to it.

Mr. BELIN. You then went to the east elevator where Mr. Truly first pushed the button for the elevator?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Any further questions? Mr. Attorney General, do you have any questions?

Mr. CARR. There is just one. There were many people around there at that time, and the rest of the day

Mr. DULLES. You are talking now about the Depository Building?

Mr. CARR. Yes, sir; at the time he has been testifying about. Did you have occasion during the rest of the day either in passing visits or idle conversation or anything of that type with any of the people that were there at the time who might have seen something or told you some theory they had about what might have happened?

Mr. BAKER. Not until last Friday morning. Chief Lunday, which is my chief in traffic, called me and asked me to go down to this Texas Depository Building, and I had--I have worked traffic outside several times but I never did go inside or talk to any of the employees.

Mr. CARR. I am referring to the people who were out there at the time of the shooting. Did you have a chance during that day to talk with any of them or did you overhear any conversations that might be material to the investigation here?

Mr. BAKER. The only ones that I talked to would be the solo officers who were around him.

Mr. DULLES. Around whom?

Mr. BAKER. Around the President's car at that time.

Mr. DULLES. What was the nature of those conversations?

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know where, how it happened, and really none of us knew how it happened, it just happened, and where they was at in place, you know, in reference to the car, would be about the only thing they could say, and at the time the first shot they didn't know where the shot came from.

The second shot they still didn't know, and then the third shot some of them over to the left-hand side, the blood and everything hit their helmets and their windshields and then they knew it had to come from behind.

Mr. BAKER. Yes, I believe Officer B. J. Martin---

Mr. BELIN. Is he a motorcycle policeman?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; he is.

Mr. BELIN. On a one- or two-wheeler or three-wheeler?

Mr. BAKER. He is a solo motorcycle, two-wheeler.

Mr. BELIN. Where was he riding at this time?

Mr. BAKER. He was on the left front.

Mr. BELIN. Of what?

Mr. BAKER. There were five motorcycle officers in front. There were four, two on each right side behind.

Mr. BELIN. When you say in front and behind of what vehicle?

Mr. BAKER. We are referring to the President's car.

Mr. BELIN. All right. He was on the front and to the left of the President's car.

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; that is right.

Mr. BELIN. What did he say to you about blood or something?

Mr. BAKER. Like I say, we were talking about where the shot came from, and he said the first shot he couldn't figure it Out where it came from. He turned his head backward, reflex, you know, and then he turned back and the second shot came off, and then the third shot is when the blood and everything hit his helmet and his windshield.

Mr. BELIN. Did it hit the inside or the outside of his windshield, did he say?

Mr. BELIN. Of his helmet?

Mr. BAKER. On his uniform also.

Mr. BELIN. On his uniform.

Mr. BAKER. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. And he was riding to the left of the President and you say ahead of the President?

Mr. BAKER. On the left-hand side.

Mr. DULLES. But a little ahead of him?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. They were immediately in front of the car.

Mr. DULLES. Any other conversations--pardon me, does that answer your question?

Mr. CARR. I was more interested, sir, in that, of course, but with the lay-men around there. There was a lot of talk and theorizing at the time and I was just wondering what he might have heard from any of the laymen, or just ordinary onlookers of the parade, did you get a chance to talk to any of them?

Mr. BAKER. At that time I didn't get a chance to talk to any of those. At that time I immediately got on my motorcycle and went on down to the Trade Mart down there where he was set up for the luncheon and at the time I got on there I didn't stop until here come a sergeant and a medical examiner and they wanted me to take them code 3 to Parkland, at the time I got there we stood around the President's car there and kept the crowd back, and that is where I stayed until, I think we left after they loaded the body, we went to Love Field and stayed there for, say, 30 minutes or something like that.

Mr. BELIN. Did you talk to--pardon me, sir, does that take care of your questions?

Mr. CARR. Yes, sir; thank you very much.

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Mr. DULLES, Any further questions?

Mr. CARR. No; thank you, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you talk to any of the other officers who were in or about the President's vehicle at the time of the shooting?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; I talked to several of them and all of them had kind of had the same story, you know. It had to come from above and behind.

Mr. BELIN. When did you talk to these officers, like Officer Martin?

Mr. BAKER That was--I didn't talk to him until we got back to the city hall, which we got off, we were supposed to get off at 3 o'clock that day, we got off around 4 the same time, they called us all in together.

Mr. BELIN. What other officers did you talk to and what did they say that you remember?

Mr. BELIN. Where was he?

Mr. BAKER. He was on the right rear of the car or to the side, and then at that time the chief of police, he didn't know anything about this, and he moved up and told him, and then that was during the time that the Secret Service men were trying to get in the car, and at the time, after the shooting, from the time the first shot rang out, the car stopped completely, pulled to the left and stopped.

Mr. BELIN. The President's car?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. Now, I have heard several of them say that, Mr. Truly was standing out there, he said it stopped. Several officers said it stopped completely.

Mr. DULLES. You saw it stop, did you?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir; I didn't see it stop.

Mr. DULLES. You just heard from others that it had stopped?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; that it had completely stopped, and then for a moment there, and then they rushed on out to Parkland.

Mr. BELIN. Officer Baker, did this Officer Chaney say anything else about, for instance, where he thought the source of the shots was?

Mr. BAKER. Not--he knew they came from behind him but he didn't know where. He said from down there they was kind of going down that hill and said that shot, the sound of it, you couldn't tell just exactly where it came from.

Mr. BELIN. How did he know it came from behind then?

Mr. BAKER. Because he was riding from behind, and whenever it hit the President, he said he would see him fall.

Mr. BELIN. Now, you are giving a motion now, did he see him fall backwards first or forwards or when you say fall what do you mean by that?

Mr. BAKER. Well, he just said, when they hit he kind of fell, so I assumed he went to the left of him.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Did any other officer say anything to you about what he saw or thought what happened?

Mr. BAKER. I talked to several of them but I can't remember exactly, you know, just what their story was.

Mr. BELIN. Was there anyone you talked to who thought the shots-came from the front?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir; not except that the chief of police that is the only one.

Now, that, like I say, that is the last thing I heard over that radio is "Get some men up on that railroad." Now, that could mean they either came from the side, which is due north, or right across in front of him. You know--

Mr. BELIN. Well, apart from the statement you testified to that the chief of police made over the radio about the underpass, was there any policeman or patrolman who was in the motorcade who in any way indicated to you that the shots came from the front?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir.

Senator COOPER. I would like to ask a couple of questions.

I think you said when you went inside the depository you saw no one

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except the man you later identified as Oswald, and Mr. Truly. There were two people sitting down on the first floor.

Mr. BAKER. As I entered that depository building, I was--people were running toward you, I don't know whether they worked there or whether they were just trying to get out of the way.

Mr. DULLES. From inside the building?

Mr. BAKER. No; from the street in. As I ran in I was pushing them aside and running through them, and some way, Mr. Truly got from my back to my front.

Now, he said he was right behind me. I never did see him until I got in and asked the question of where the stairs was, so evidently whenever I went in the door why he came on in. There were several people coming in as I, you know, came in, there were several in front of me and also around my sides and my back. And it seemed to me like a double door deal.

Senator COOPER. As you went up on the elevator could you see out of the elevator onto floors?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. The best that I could, that is the reason I wasn't paying too much attention to the elevator I was looking around all those floors.

Senator COOPER. Did you see anyone?

Mr. BELIN. When you say up on the elevator, he didn't get on the elevator until he had got up on the stairs.

Senator COOPER. I am aware of that.

Mr. BAKER. I was still looking.

Senator COOPER. You went up on the second floor by stairs?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. Then you got on the elevator.

Mr. BELIN. No, sir; he didn't get on the elevator until the fifth floor.

Senator COOPER. Anyway, as you walked up the stairs could you see into each floor space as you passed from floor to floor?

Mr. BAKER. Partly. Now, this building has got pillars in it, you know, and then it has got books, cases of books stacked all in it. And the best that I could, you know, I would look through there and see if I could see anybody.

Senator COOPER. Did you see anyone?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir.

Senator COOPER. When you looked?

Mr. BAKER. Not from the second floor on up.

Senator COOPER. As you approached the building by motorcycle, did you notice whether anyone was looking out of the windows of the Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. Those windows, I would say a number of them were open and I tell you, to the best of my recollection, I scanned those windows, but I can't recall anybody looking out of them, you know. I looked at all them buildings so much and there were people looking out of every one of them, every doorway and every window, and I really was looking high more at the roof of it than I was anything, and I really didn't see nothing in the windows.

Senator COOPER. I may be repeating because I missed the first part of his testimony.

Mr. DULLES. Go ahead.

Senator COOPER. But when you heard the shot, you said later you saw some pigeons fly up.

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. What was the sequence of time between the time you saw the flight of the pigeons and you heard the shot?

Mr. BAKER. As I got that motorcycle straightened up, and I hadn't gone just a very few feet there, it didn't seem like, you know, I went very far, but it is possible I went, we figured maybe 80, 60 to 80 feet there, and I looked up, as the shots started, I immediately looked up, you know. I was already facing ahead and I just kind of raised, I sighted up, and while I was looking-up, those other two shots came off, and as I come up, I noticed those pigeons start to fly up there, but I really didn't see which, there were so many of them I

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couldn't tell which building they were coming from but I know they were all over.

Say you were facing north like Houston they were in the sky facing north in the street.

Senator COOPER. Which way were the pigeons going?

Mr. BAKER. They were just coming up, you know.

Senator COOPER. I assume you are a hunter, aren't you, from what you said?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; I try to be.

Senator COOPER. Have you seen birds in flight when they are suddenly startled?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. Well, was this the character of the flight of pigeons you saw?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; that is the way it seemed to me, that these birds, you know, just with a sudden uprush.

Mr. BAKER. No, sir; that was the only words that I remember that was said over the radio from the time the shots rang out until I started parking that motorcycle, and when I came off of it I heard those words.

Senator COOPER. Could you see the railroad yards?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; I could see it--this track ran under this triple under-pass to my left, all out behind this building.

Senator COOPER. Did you see anything there which attracted your attention other than---

Mr. BAKER. Nothing except---

Senator COOPER. Crowd?

Senator COOPER. Were there any officers that you saw near the School Book Depository when you went in?

Mr. DULLES. By that corner you mean the corner of Elm and Houston?

Mr. BAKER. That is right, sir. J. W. Williams who is a motorcycle officer, was, I thought, over on the left-hand side of me, and he was right with me, but as I ran in this building, I found out that I was by myself. I didn't know where anybody went.

Senator COOPER. Did you later see J. W. Williams, Officer Williams?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. He stated that when the motorcade left with the President, and they immediately went code 3 to Parkland, why he was up there with him and he went up there with him. And I later saw him out there at Parkland.

Mr. DULLES. You testified, I believe, that you did not yourself see the President's car stop. You just were told it was stopped by several other officers?

Mr. BAKER. Let me say, as I parked that motorcycle, I looked down there, well, the car had swerved to the left, and I saw this man run out into this crowd and back. I don't know who he was but I saw that and I saw these people following him, and all these pressmen jumping out of their cars and running down the street toward him.

Mr. BELIN. Officer Baker, do you know from where this man ran off into the crowd at all or not?

Mr. BELIN. All right.

You mentioned the fact that you had gone or come back from deer hunting just prior to November 22, 1963.

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What kind of a weapon did you have when you went deer hunting?

Mr. BAKER. I had one of these .30-06, I believe the Springfield type.

Mr. BELIN. Is it a rifle?

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Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Automatic or bolt action?

Mr. BAKER Bolt action.

Mr. BELIN. How long have you owned a rifle, any rifle?

Mr. BAKER. This particular one I have had it approximately 7 years.

Mr. BELIN. Have you had much experience to go hunting?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. Every year.

Mr. BELIN. Every year you go deer hunting?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. You have had occasion to hear shots from your rifle?

Mr. BAKER. That is right, sir.

Mr. BELIN. From other rifles?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did this in any way influence your decisions as to what you did on November 22 as you heard the first sound?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; it did.

Mr. BELIN. In what way did it influence them?

Mr. BAKER. To me it was immediately a rifle shot. A lot of the solo officers said they thought it was the backfire from a motorcycle because you can make those motorcycles pop pretty loud. But that instant it just, I don't know, it just hit me as a rifle shot.

Senator COOPER. How long have you been firing a rifle?

Mr. BAKER. Say, from the time I was about 17 years old.

Senator COOPER. Have you fired other types of rifles other than the one you used?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; the first one I had was a 30-30 Marlin lever type.

Senator COOPER. Have you ever seen the rifle that is alleged to have belonged to Lee Oswald?

Mr. BAKER. I saw it, a photograph of it, in the newspaper.

Senator COOPER. Do you know what kind of rifle it is?

Mr. BAKER. Not offhand. I heard it was some foreign make gun. Most of the boys down there at the police department have had dealings with foreign type guns, rifles, you know of this kind, and a lot of them sell them, and a lot of them rework them, you know, make them into deer rifles.

Senator COOPER. What were the characteristics of the report that you heard, three reports, which made you believe that it was a shot from a rifle?

Mr. BELIN. Officer Baker, did it appear to you that these sounds that you heard were from the same rifle or from possibly more than one rifle?

Mr. BAKER. I would say they was from the same rifle.

Mr. BELIN. Did it appear that the sounds all came from the same source?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. With regard to the closeness of these sounds together, how fast they came, did it appear that it came from or that it could have come from a weapon that had to be operated by bolt action as opposed to a semiautomatic or an automatic weapon?

Mr. BAKER. It seemed to me like you could either fire a semi or bolt action in about the same time.

Mr. BELIN. Have you had occasion to use a bolt action rifle and fire shots quickly one after the other?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; I have.

Mr. BELIN. Did it appear that, from what you heard, that from your experience you could have operated your own bolt action rifle as quickly as those shots came?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BAKER. I would say just about as fast as you could bolt one of those bolt action rifles which wouldn't be-- I don't believe it would be over 3 seconds apart.

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Mr. DULLES. Over what?

Mr. BAKER. Three seconds apart.

Mr. BELIN. From each shot?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Three seconds from the first to the second and another 3 seconds from the second to the third?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. You are saying not over 3 seconds?

Mr. BAKER. Not over 3 seconds.

Mr. DULLES. Any further questions?

Thank you very much, Officer Baker. Your testimony has been very helpful.

(At this point Senator Cooper left the hearing room.)

Mrs. Robert A. Reid

Page 270

TESTIMONY OF MRS. ROBERT A. REID

BOONE III 290

290

Eugene Boone

Page 291

TESTIMONY OF EUGENE BOONE

The CHAIRMAN. Sit right down, Mr. Boone.

Senator COOPER. The purpose of this hearing is to hear the testimony of M. L. Baker, Mrs. R. A. Reid, Eugene Boone, Luke Mooney, and M. N. McDonald. Officer Baker and Mrs. Reid were in the vicinity of the Texas School Book Depository Building at the time of the assassination. Deputy Sheriffs Boone and Mooney assisted in the search of the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository Building shortly after the assassination, and Officer McDonald apprehended Lee Harvey Oswald at the Texas theatre.

Will you be sworn? Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. BOONE. I do.

Senator COOPER. You understand the purpose of this inquiry?

Mr. BOONE. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. You have come here voluntarily to testify?

Mr. BOONE. Yes.

Senator COOPER. Do you have a counsel with you?

Mr. BOONE. No.

Senator COOPER. Do you desire one?

Mr. BOONE. No.

Mr. BALL. What is your business?

Mr. BOONE. I am a deputy sheriff in or for the county of Dallas.

Mr. BALL. How long have you been a deputy sheriff?

Mr. BOONE. A year and a half.

Mr. BALL. Where were you born?

Mr. BOONE. Dallas, Tex.

Mr. BALL. Go to school there?

Mr. BOONE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. How far through school did you go?

Mr. BOONE. High school.

Mr. BALL. In Dallas?

Mr. BOONE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did you do after you got out of school?

Mr. BOONE. I was working with the Dallas Times Herald Newspaper there, in the advertising department.

Mr. BALL. How long did you work there?

Mr. BOONE. Well, I worked there part time when I was going to school, up until the time I quit, 8 years.

Mr. BALL. Is that the time you went with the sheriff's office?

Mr. BOONE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. How old are you?

Mr. BOONE. Twenty-six.

Mr. BALL. On the 22d of November, where were you working?

Mr. BOONE. I was working downtown. I was out viewing the parade.

Mr. BALL. Where did you view the parade?

Mr. BOONE. Right in front of the sheriff's office.

Mr. BALL. Had you been assigned a place, a job that day?

Mr. BOONE. No.

Mr. BALL. You were out in front of the sheriff's office on Main Street?

Mr. BOONE. That is correct.

Mr. BALL. Near Houston?

Mr. BOONE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And who were you with?

Mr. BOONE. Officer Mooney was out there, I believe, and several of the office personnel, women in the office, clerk-typist and what have you. Ralph Walters, Buddy Walthers, Allen Sweatt, L. C. Smith. Officer Gramstaff. That is about all I can remember.

Mr. BALL. What happened there?

Mr. BOONE. Well, it was approximately 1 o'clock when we heard the shots. The motorcade had already passed by us and turned back to the north on

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Houston Street. And we heard what we thought to be a shot. And there seemed to be a pause between the first shot and the second shot and third shots--a little longer pause. And we raced across the street there.

Mr. BALL. You raced across what street?

Mr. BOONE. Houston Street.

Mr. BALL. You turned to your right and went west?

Mr. BOONE. Well, there is a big cement works out there. We went on west across Houston Street, and then cut across the grass out there behind the large cement works there. Some of the bystanders over there seemed to think the shots came from up over the railroad in the freight yards, from over the triple underpass.

So there was some city officer, I don't know who he was, motorcycle officer had laid his motorcycle down and was running up the embankment to get over a little retaining wall that separates the freight yards there. He went over the wall first, and I was right behind him, going into the freight yards. We searched out the freight yards. We were unable to find anything.

Mr. BALL. A good many officers over there searching?

Mr. BOONE. Yes; there were. Most all of the officers--well, all of the officers in front of the sheriff's office there. There were others that I don't recall. There were other officers in the area. Also, they all ran in that general direction, over around the depository and also down into the freight yards.

Mr. BALL. Any railroad employees around there?

Mr. BOONE. There was one colored boy way on back down in the freight yards. He had been working on one of the pullmans down there.

Mr. BALL. And didn't you talk to somebody that was also in a tower?

Mr. BOONE. Yes; I did.

Mr. BALL. A man named Bowers?

Mr. BOONE. I don't know what his name was. He was up in the tower and I hollered up there to see if he had seen anybody running out there in the freight yards, or heard any shots. And he said he didn't hear any shots, and he hadn't seen anybody racing around out there in the yard.

Mr. BALL. That was a railroad tower?

Mr. BOONE. Yes; it is situated between the tracks and the school book depository. Almost directly west of the building.

Mr. BALL. After that, what did you do?

Mr. BOONE. Well, I finally went around and was talking to some of the spectators that were in the area there, located a boy by the name of Betzer. He had taken what he thought was some photographs, or there were photo-graphs--he thought he might have had a portion of the building.

Later on we were able to ascertain that the shots had come from the building, from that southeast corner over there. And he had some photographs, but they didn't extend past the second floor on the building.

Mr. BALL. Did you go up into the building then?

Mr. BOONE. I took him on over to the sheriff's office, and placed him in the sheriff's office, took his camera, to bring it back to the ID Bureau to be developed. Placed him in the sheriff's office at that time to await somebody to take a statement from him.

Then some other officers, Ralph Walters and Officer Gramstaff, and I don't know whether--I don't remember Officer Mooney was with them or not at that time they headed back to get some heavy power flashlights. They said they wanted to look around in the attic. And there were a bunch of pallets, that they moved the books around, and it was dark and they couldn't see. So we got the lights and went over to the building.

At that time, we proceeded directly to the sixth floor.

Mr. BALL. Somebody tell you to go to the sixth floor?

Mr. BOONE. Well, that is just where everybody was going. And they said five floors below that--I believe Inspector Sawyer with the city was out there, and he said the other floors were in the process of being searched or had been already searched. This was after Officer Mooney found the shells.

Mr. BALL. Did somebody tell you Officer Mooney had found some shells?

Mr. BOONE. Not him in particular. They said the shells had been found on the sixth floor. At that time, I didn't know he had found them.

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Mr. BALL. What did you do after you got up to the sixth floor?

Mr. BOONE. Well, I proceeded to the east end of the building, I guess, and started working our way across the building to the west wall, looking in, under, and around all the boxes and pallets, and what-have-you that were on the floor. Looking for the weapon. And as I got to the west wall, there were a row of windows there, and a slight space between some boxes and the wall. I squeezed through them.

When I did--I had my light in my hand. I was slinging it around on the floor, and I caught a glimpse of the rifle, stuffed down between two rows of boxes with another box or so pulled over the top of it. And I hollered that the rifle was here.

Mr. BALL. What happened then?

Mr. BOONE. Some of the other officers came over to look at it. I told them to stand back, not to get around close, they might want to take prints of some of the boxes, and not touch the rifle. And at that time Captain Fritz and an ID man came over. I believe the ID man's name was Lieutenant Day--I am not sure. They came over and the weapon was photographed as it lay. And at that time Captain Fritz picked it up by the strap, and it was removed from the place where it was.

Mr. BALL. You saw them take the photograph?

Mr. BOONE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Were you alone at that time?

Mr. BOONE. There was an Officer Weitzman, I believe. He is a deputy constable.

Mr. BALL. Where was the rifle located on the floor, general location?

Mr. BOONE. Well, it was almost--the stairwell is in the corner of the building, something like this, and there is a wall coming up here, making one side of the stairwell with the building acting as the other two sides. And from that, it was almost directly in front or about 8 feet south, I guess, it would be, from that partition wall that made up the stairwell.

Mr. BALL. The rifle was about 3 feet from the--

Mr. BOONE. Yes, sir; behind a row of boxes. There was a row of boxes that came across there. Then the rifle was behind that first row of boxes.

Mr. BALL. I show you 514. Is that the way it looked when you saw it?

Mr. BOONE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Is that the way it was when the picture was taken?

Mr. BOONE. Yes; I believe so.

Mr. BALL. This shows the rifle as you saw it, does it?

Mr. BOONE. That is right. Then you could kneel down over here and see that it had a scope, a telescopic sight on it, by looking down underneath the boxes.

Mr. BALL. Now, I show you 515. Does that look anything like the area where you found the rifle?

Mr. BOONE. Yes; it did.

Mr. BALL. Will you put that down on the table so that everyone can see where it is, and show us where the rifle was with reference to the stairwell?

Mr. BOONE. This is that retaining wall here that I was talking about here. Now, the rifle was right down in this area right here, almost directly. This is the west end of the building here, this being the north side, as I recall.

Mr. BALL. That is the northwest corner?

Mr. BOONE. Yes. And it is about 3 feet from the edge you cannot see the edge of it, because it is behind this.

Mr. BALL. The edge of what?

Mr. BOONE. The stairwell wall here. It is about 3 feet from where this partition ends over to---back behind these cases of books here.

Mr. BALL. Can you mark with an arrow there the exact space between the boxes where you found the rifle as shown on this exhibit, which is 514?

Mr. BOONE. What do you mean--the exact space? It was in this space right in here, like this.

Mr. BALL. The arrow marks the space.

Mr. BOONE. I had come around these boxes here, next to the windows over here, and that is when I saw it, looking down across this way.

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Mr. BALL. You came along the west wall, near the windows shown in this picture

514?

Mr. BOONE. That is correct.

Mr. BALL. And when you looked in the direction that would be easterly, that is when you saw the rifle?

Mr. BOONE. Northeasterly.

Mr. BALL. Here is another picture which we will mark as 516.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 516 for identification.)

Mr. BALL. Now, 515 contains the arrow which shows the space between boxes where you found the rifle, is that right?

Mr. BOONE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Now, I show you an exhibit marked 516. Does that show--what corner of the building does that show? Or do you recognize it?

Mr. BOONE. It appears to be the same general location here.

Mr. BALL. Show

Mr. BOONE. This is the stairwell back here in the corner. If I am not mistaken, there is a freight elevator over here.

Mr. BALL. That would be the right of the picture?

Mr. BOONE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Now, point to the boxes where you found the rifle.

Mr. BOONE. Right down in this general direction.

Mr. BALL. Draw another arrow. I show you Exhibit 483, a diagram of the sixth floor. Now, by referring to these numbers, can you show us approximately where the rifle was found?

Mr. BOONE. Roughly in the area here, designated by the arrow No. 35.

Mr. BALL. The diagram on the sixth floor, as the Commission knows, has been correlated with certain pictures. I now have Commission Exhibit 517 marked, which has the figure 35 on it, which corresponds to the position of the camera at the time the picture was taken.

In other words, at about point 35 on this map. And now I show you a photograph marked 517. Is that about the way the rifle looked when you first saw it?

Mr. BOONE. Yes; it is. There was some newsman up there right behind Officer Whitman and myself who took movie film of it too. I don't know his name.

Mr. BALL. What time was it?

Mr. BOONE. 1:22 p.m. in the afternoon.

Mr. BALL. 1 :22?

Mr. BOONE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. You looked at your watch?

Mr. BOONE. That is correct.

Mr. BALL. And made a note of it?

Mr. BOONE. Yes; I did.

Mr. BALL. I show you a rifle which is Commission Exhibit 139. Can you tell us whether or not that looks like the rifle you saw on the floor that day?

Mr. BOONE. It looks like the same rifle. I have no way of being positive.

Mr. BALL. You never handled it?

Mr. BOONE. I did not touch the weapon at all.

Mr. BALL. I would like to offer all the exhibits we have offered with this witness, which is 515 to 516 and 517, into evidence.

Senator COOPER. Let the exhibits be admitted in evidence.

(The documents referred to marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 515, 516, and 517 were received in evidence.)

Mr. BALL. I have no further questions.

The CHAIRMAN. I think you said that the reason you didn't touch it was because of the danger of fingerprints on there, is that right?

Mr. BOONE. That is correct. The city officers had personnel in charge up there. Captain Fritz, I believe, was in charge, senior officer on the floor.

He was called to the location as soon as I found the rifle. He came over, and it was photographed then.

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Senator COOPER. Did you notice whether the rifle that you discovered had a telescopic sight?

Mr. BOONE. Yes, it did.

Senator COOPER. Did it have a sling?

Mr. BOONE. Yes, it did. Because Captain Fritz picked it up by the sling when he removed it from its resting place.

Senator COOPER. Looking at Exhibit 483, which represents the floor plan of the sixth floor, you have marked on there the place where you found the rifle. Is that near the stairwell?

Mr. BOONE. Yes, sir; this is the stairwell right here in the northeast corner.

Senator COOPER. Also near the elevators?

Mr. BOONE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Pardon me, Senator Cooper, I think you said northeast.

Mr. BOONE. Northwest--I beg your pardon.

Senator COOPER. Do you remember whether Officer Mooney came up after you found the rifle?

Mr. BOONE. I don't recall. There were officers, both city and county officers, and constables officers up in the area on the floor. Now, whether he was among the crowd there, I do not know.

Senator COOPER. When you climbed over the retaining wall at the railroad yard, can you describe what the situation in the railroad yard was at that time? Were there railroad cars in the area?

Mr. BOONE. There were four railroad cars down approximately 100 yards from the retaining wall, right over the Elm Street tunnel, or portion of the triple underpass. Then there were some people down to the south of the triple underpass which had viewed the parade, or were viewing the parade I don't know. The city officer went back south, as I recall, and I went off to the north, northwest.

Senator COOPER. Thank you.

The CHAIRMAN. Sheriff, thank you very much.

Mr. BALL. There is one question. Did you hear anybody refer to this rifle as a Mauser that day?

Mr. BOONE. Yes, I did. And at first, not knowing what it was, I thought it was 7.65 Mauser.

Mr. BALL. Who referred to it as a Mauser that day?

Mr. BOONE. I believe Captain Fritz. He had knelt down there to look at it, and before he removed it, not knowing what it was, he said that is what it looks like. This is when Lieutenant Day, I believe his name is, the ID man was getting ready to photograph it.

We were just discussing it beck and forth. And he said it looks like a 7.65 Mauser.

Mr. BALL. Thank you.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much, Sheriff. You have been very helpful.

Mr. BALL. Call Officer McDonald.

M. N. McDonald

HARKNESS VOLUME VI

TESTIMONY OF D. V. HARKNESS

The testimony of D. V. Harkness was taken at 11:30 a.m., on April 9, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BELIN. Will you stand and raise your right hand? Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. HARKNESS. I do.

Mr. BELIN. Your name, sir, would you please state?

Mr. HARKNESS. D. V. Harkness, Dallas Police Department.

Mr. BELIN. Where do you live?

Mr. HARKNESS. 2123 San Pablo.

Mr. BELIN. Is that in Dallas?

Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What position do you have with the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. HARKNESS. Sergeant of police.

Mr. BELIN. How long have you been with the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. HARKNESS. Little over 17 years.

Mr. BELIN. How old are you, sir?

Mr. HARKNESS. Forty-two.

Mr. BELIN. Did you go to school here in Dallas?

Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. How far did you get through school?

Mr. HARKNESS. High school.

Mr. BELIN. High school graduate?

Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. HARKNESS. One year worked for the East Texas Refining Co.

Mr. BELIN. Then what?

Mr. HARKNESS. Then I worked for the Baker Hotel in the auditing office.

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Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. HARKNESS. Went in the service for 4 years.

Mr. BELIN. Army?

Mr. HARKNESS. Coast Guard.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do in the Coast Guard, generally?

Mr. HARKNESS. I was a boatswain's mate second when I was discharged.

Mr. BELIN. Doing what?

Mr. HARKNESS. Let's see, I was on the troop transport at the time of my discharge.

Mr. BELIN. Honorable discharge?

Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you

Mr. HARKNESS. Come back and went to work for Alexander Motor Co.

Mr. BELIN. As what?

Mr. HARKNESS. Worked in the office in the purchasing department.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. HARKNESS. Went with the Dallas Police Department..

Mr. BELIN. Been there ever since?

Mr. HARKNESS. Ever since.

Mr. BELIN. Were you on duty November 22, 1963?

Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Doing what?

Mr. HARKNESS. Supervising the traffic officers from Main and Field along the parade route to Elm and Houston.

Mr. BELIN. Where were you around 12:30 p.m.?

Mr. HARKNESS. At Main and Houston.

Mr. BELIN. On the east or west side of Houston?

Mr. HARKNESS. West side of Houston.

Mr. BELIN. Did you watch the motorcade come by?

Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Where were you when you heard the shots?

Mr. HARKNESS. I had started west on Main Street to the, I don't know what they call this area here.

Mr. BELIN. Plaza.

Mr. HARKNESS. On the plaza area with the crowd to observe the President as he went west on Elm Street.

Mr. BELIN. How many shots did you hear?

Mr. HARKNESS. Three.

Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do?

Mr. HARKNESS. When I saw the first shot and the President's car slow down to almost a stop----

Mr. BELIN. When you saw the first shot, what do you mean by that?

Mr. HARKNESS. When I heard the first shot and saw the President's car almost come to a stop and some of the agents piling off the car, I went back to the intersection to get my motorcycle.

Mr. BELIN. You were in the process of doing that when you heard the second and third shots?

Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Where did the shots sound like they came from?

Mr. HARKNESS. I couldn't tell. They were bouncing off the buildings down there. I couldn't tell.

Mr. BELIN. You mean the reverberations?

Mr. HARKNESS. Yes.

Mr. HARKNESS. I went west on Main to observe the area between the railroad tracks .and Industrial.

Mr. BELIN. Why did you go down there?

Mr. HARKNESS. By the way the people, when I went into this area, everybody

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was hitting the ground, and someone led us to indicate that the shots were coming into the cars.

Mr. BELIN. You mean from some point in front of the cars?

Mr. HARKNESS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know who that someone was?

Mr. HARKNESS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What did that person do that indicated that?

Mr. HARKNESS. I don't remember.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you

Mr. HARKNESS. I went down to Industrial to see if I could see anyone fleeing that area.

Mr. BELIN. What did you see?

Mr. HARKNESS. I didn't see anyone, so I come back to the front of the Book Depository and went around to this fence that was across the street from Elm Street.

Mr. BELIN. What do you mean across the street from Elm Street?

Mr. BELIN. Behind the building?

Mr. HARKNESS. No, sir; this area right here. See, Elm Street goes down.

Mr. BELIN. What you are really saying---

Mr. HARKNESS. This area.

Mr. BELIN. You are pointing to a place between what would be the extension of Elm that doesn't go down into the parkway but the actual extension of Elm?

Mr. HARKNESS. Yes; to the plaza area.

Mr. BELIN. The plaza area?

Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What did you find there?

Mr. HARKNESS. I found a little colored boy, Amos Euins, who told me he saw the shots come from that building.

Mr. BELIN. Now you just picked out a little small book, one of those little pocket notebooks?

Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Or a notepad from your pocket here. Is that the original notation that you made?

Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. When did you make that notation?

Mr. HARKNESS. Immediately after the shooting.

Mr. BELIN. Is that your own record that you have kept in your possession since then?

Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir. I turned

Mr. BELIN. You turned what?

Mr. HARKNESS. After I took his name and address and put this information on the radio, I then took him on the back of my three-wheel motorcycle and put him in Inspector Sawyer's car.

Mr. BELIN. Now you mentioned that you put something on the radio here, and I hand you here what has been marked as Sawyer Deposition Exhibit A. Before doing that, do you remember what call number you used, you were using on that day?

Mr. HARKNESS. I believe 260.

Mr. BELIN. Well, I notice here that there is a call with a notation at 12:36 p.m., 260 to 531. 531 is your office in the main station?

Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What does it say there on that transcript?

Mr. HARKNESS. "Witness says shots came from fifth floor, Texas Book Depository store at Houston and Elm. I have him with me now and we are sealing off the building."

Mr. BELIN. All right, that was at 12:36 p.m.?

Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Had the building been sealed off at that time?

Mr. HARKNESS. Not to my knowledge. There were several officers around it, but I don't know whether it had been sealed off or not.

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Mr. BELIN. In the process of sealing off the building, what did you do?

Mr. HARKNESS. Asked for a squad.

Mr. BELIN. How long did it take you after that to have the back part sealed off?

Mr. HARKNESS. The guard was arriving by the time I got off my motorcycle. There was already additional squads en route.

Mr. BELIN. How soon after 12:36 p.m., would you say the building was sealed off?

Mr. HARKNESS. It was sealed off then because I was back there and two other men.

Mr. BELIN. You are talking about the back part of the building?

Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What about the front part of the building? When was that sealed off?

Mr. HARKNESS. Inspector Sawyer and two officers were there.

Mr. BELIN. By the time you got around to the front part of the building?

Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir; by the time I put the witness in his car, I went immediately to the back.

Mr. BELIN. In other words, as I understand the sequence, you first went to the back of the building and had that sealed off first, or not?

Mr. HARKNESS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. You tell me what happened then.

Mr. HARKNESS. I had this witness with me. I didn't want to lose this witness.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. HARKNESS. So I took him to the car.

Mr. BELIN. To Inspector Sawyer's car?

Mr. HARKNESS. To Inspector Sawyer's car, which was right in front.

Mr. BELIN. Which was parked in front of the Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. HARKNESS. And left the witness there and went around to the back.

Mr. BELIN. On whose radio did you call? Did you call in before or after you left the witness in the car?

Mr. HARKNESS. I don't remember in exact sequence there, but it was in the process of going to the car there.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. HARKNESS. See, here is the thing. The radio traffic was heavy at the time, and it depended on how long you had to wait to get in.

Mr. BELIN. All right, in any event, after you made the call, what did you do on the radio? And after you got the man in the car?

Mr. HARKNESS. Well---

Mr. BELIN. The witness in the car, what did you do?

Mr. HARKNESS. Stayed at the back of the building until I was relieved by a squad.

Mr. BELIN. So you then went to the back of the building?

Mr. HARKNESS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. When you were at Inspector Sawyer's car, did you see him there?

Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Was he at his car?

Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir; he was by his car, near his car.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether or not he had gone inside the building.

Mr. HARKNESS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. You mean you don't know?

Mr. HARKNESS. Don't know whether he had gone in or not. Actually, he was standing there in front taking information. All the information was being funneled to Inspector Sawyer.

Mr. BELIN. Did you tell him you had a witness?

Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. In his car?

Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir.

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Mr. BELIN. At that time, had the building been sealed off yet when you told him that?

Mr. HARKNESS. At that time?

Mr. BELIN. When you told Inspector Sawyer that you had a witness that said the shot came from the building, up to that particular moment, had the front part of the building been sealed off yet?

Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. It had already been sealed off?

Mr. HARKNESS. There .was two officers with Inspector Sawyer at the front.

Mr. BELIN. Were they stopping people from going in and out?

Mr. HARKNESS. I don't know.

Mr. BELIN. You don't know?

Mr. HARKNESS. No, sir; I don't know that, because I didn't go up and talk to them.

Mr. BELIN. Did you notice whether or not people were coming in and out of the building?

Mr. HARKNESS. No. I was interested in getting around to the back of the building to make sure it was.

Mr. BELIN. Then am I correct that your testimony is that you didn't notice whether people were coming in and out? Did you notice, or did you not notice whether people were coming out of the building at that time?

Mr. HARKNESS. Several officers at the area, and it was a lot of people around. I don't know whether they were going in or out or not. I couldn't say that.

Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Was anyone around in the back when you got there?

Mr. HARKNESS. There were some Secret Service agents there. I didn't get them identified. They told me they were Secret Service.

Mr. BELIN. Then did you say around the back of the building?

Mr. HARKNESS. Yes; I stayed at the back until the squad got there.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. HARKNESS. I went back to the front, and Inspector Sawyer---helped get the crowd back first, and then Inspector Sawyer assigned me to some freight cars that were leaving out of the yard, to go down and search all freight cars that were leaving the yard.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. HARKNESS. Well, we got a long freight that was in there, and we pulled some people off of there and took them to the station.

Mr. BELIN. You mean some transients?

Mr. HARKNESS. Tramps and hoboes.

Mr. BELIN. That were on the freight car?

Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. HARKNESS. That was all my assignment, because they shook two long freights down that were leaving, to my knowledge, in all the area there.

We had several officers working in that area.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether or not anyone found any suspicious people of any kind or nature down there in the railroad yard

Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir. We made some arrests, I put some people in.

Mr. BELIN. Were these what you call hoboes or tramps?

Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Were all those questioned?

Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir; they were taken to the station and questioned.

Mr. BELIN. Any guns of any kind found?

Mr. HARKNESS'. Not to my knowledge.

Mr. BELIN. I want to go back to this Amos Euins. Do you remember what he said to you and what you said to him when you first saw him?

Mr. HARKNESS. I went in that crowd up there near the area there, and asked did anyone see any place where the shots come from, and there was an unidentified person pointed to him, said this boy here saw it, saw the shots, where the shots came from, and he told me it was.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did he say?

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Mr. HARKNESS. He told me that the shots came from the window under the ledge.

Mr. BELIN. Of what building?

Mr. HARKNESS. Of the School Book Depository.

Mr. BELIN. Now have you since gone back to that building?

Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know where the ledge is?

Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir; let's see, I have been by the place a million times. The ledge there is the one window where it came from, I believe.

Mr. BELIN. You can't right now definitely state what floor the ledge would be?

Mr. HARKNESS. Well---

Mr. BELIN. If you can't, I would rather not have you guess, but if you do know, I would like to have you state.

Mr. HARKNESS. I believe that it---

Mr. BELIN. Sergeant, now, do you know where that ledge is now?

Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Between what floors is the ledge?

Mr. HARKNESS. The ledge is between, over the sixth floor.

Mr. BELIN. All right, well here in your police report I show you Sawyer Deposition Exhibit A, you said the, "Witness says shots came from fifth floor Texas School Book Depository." Did the witness say it was from the sixth floor, or did he say' it was from the fifth floor?

Mr. HARKNESS. He said it was from the fifth floor.

Mr. BELIN. What were the exact words of the witness?

Mr. HARKNESS. The exact words of the witness "It was under the ledge," which would put it on the sixth floor. It was my error in a hasty count of the floors.

Mr. BELIN. Did the witness say what particular window on that floor that he saw it on? On the floor under the ledge?

Mr. HARKNESS. Said it was the last window, which would indicate it would be the last window on the east side of the building.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say to his right as he saw it, or did he just say the last window from where he was standing?

Mr. HARKNESS. Last window from where he was standing, and at that point it would indicate that it would be the last window on the east side of the building facing Elm Street.

Mr. BELIN. Were you standing at the time, on the north or south side of Elm when you talked to this witness?

Mr. HARKNESS. I was.

Mr. BELIN. When you were with this witness, had this Amos Euins, were you standing on the north or the south side of Elm as it goes into the Parkway there?

Mr. HARKNESS. Elm as it goes under the Parkway--was between Elm where it goes under the triple underpass, and the extension of Elm there in that park area.

Mr. BELIN. So that is where you were standing?

Mr. HARKNESS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. So that would be north of Elm as it goes into the underpass, but south of the extension of Elm ?

Mr. HARKNESS. Where that building is, yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Would you have been west of the School Book Depository Building at that time?

Mr. HARKNESS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. So the witness pointed to the last one on that floor? That would be the last one which would be to the east, is that correct?

Mr. HARKNESS. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else you can remember this witness said?

Mr. HARKNESS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say whether or not he saw a rifle?

Mr. HARKNESS. He couldn't tell.

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Mr. BELIN. Sergeant, do you remember anything else that you said?

Mr. HARKNESS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you actually talk to any other person whose name you recorded in your little book there?

Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir; Arnold Rowland.

Mr. BELIN. Arnold Rowland?

Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What did he say?

Mr. HARKNESS. He said that he saw a man on one of those floors. He didn't clearly identify it, as he saw a man with a high-powered rifle walking around up there.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say anything else that you could have recorded there?

Mr. HARKNESS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else you remember?

Mr. HARKNESS. Except his address. I have his address as 3026 Hammerly.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say anything else?

Mr. HARKNESS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else that happened that day that might in any way be relevant to this investigation?

Mr. HARKNESS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do on Saturday?

Mr. HARKNESS. Saturday I was assigned to traffic at Elm and Houston, between Elm and Main.

Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else that you did on Saturday or on Sunday that might in any way be relevant to this area of inquiry?

Mr. HARKNESS. On Saturday had a large crowd down there, and I observed Jack Ruby at the entrance of the jail down there on Saturday.

Mr. BELIN. You saw Jack Ruby near the entrance of the jail on Saturday?

Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Has your statement already been taken by anyone before on the President's Commission?

Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. But you did see Jack Ruby?

Mr. HARKNESS. I testified in Ruby's trial to that effect.

Mr. BELIN. Anyone else or anything else that might be in any way relevant here?

Mr. HARKNESS. The only thing, on Sunday I was leaving town; going to Whitesboro, and my wife and kids, we heard over the radio that Oswald had been shot.

When I arrived in Whitesboro, I called Capt. Fritz of the Dallas Police Department, and told him that I had seen Ruby near the entrance of the county jail the day before, which was a Saturday.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else?

Mr. HARKNESS. That is all.

Mr. BELIN. But did you ever talk to Ruby at any time afterwards?

Mr. HARKNESS. No, sir: not afterwards.

Mr. BELIN. Did you know Ruby at all, or not?

Mr. HARKNESS. I had met him, and being downtown traffic sergeant, I had seen him before, and I knew who he was, but other than that, that is all.

Mr. BELIN. Is there any other thing you can think of, whether I have asked it or not, that might in any way be relevant to the investigation of the assassination or the shooting of Officer Tippit?

Mr. HARKNESS. No, sir; I don't have anything on that, other than what I heard over the radio.

Mr. BELIN. By the way, did your witness ever say whether the person he saw at the window was a white man or Negro?

Mr. HARKNESS. He just told me, he just said he couldn't identify him. That is what he told me.

Mr. BELIN. Did he tell you whether or not it was a man?

Mr. HARKNESS. I don't remember, because I knew I couldn't get any information out of him, enough to put out a description on it.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else?

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Mr. HARKNESS. No, Sir.

Mr. BELIN. Sir, we want to thank you very much for coming down here and testifying.

You have an opportunity, if you would like, to come back and read your deposition when it is typed, and sign it, or you can waive reading and signing it and just have the court reporter send the transcript to us directly in Washington. If you have any preference, you might let us know.

Mr. HARKNESS. l have no preference. I just hope I have been able to help you on these directions, because they are complicated to give directions, especially when you try to convince.

Mr. BELIN. In any event, do you want to sign or waive signing? You have a right to sign or you can waive the signing of it and send it directly to us, whatever you want to do.

Mr. HARKNESS. Waiver is customary? It doesn't make any difference.

Mr. BELIN. Some people do one way and some the other way. Do you want to come back and read it and sign it, or do you want to waive signing it and let the court reporter send us the transcript direct?

Mr. HARKNESS. What has most of them been doing?

Mr. BELIN. Gosh, I have them doing both ways. I couldn't tell you what most have been doing, sir.

Mr. HARKNESS. I will just waive.

HAYGOOD Volume VI

TESTIMONY OF CLYDE A. HAYGOOD

Testimony of Clyde A. Haygood was taken at 9:15 a.m., on April 9, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BELIN. Would you stand and raise your right hand.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. HAYGOOD. I do.

Mr. BELIN. Would you please state your name.

Mr. HAYGOOD. Clyde A. Haygood.

Mr. BELIN. What is your occupation?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Dallas police officer, solo motorcycle section.

Mr. BELIN. How old are you ?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Thirty-two.

Mr. BELIN. Born in Texas?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Go to school here in Texas?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. How far did you get through school?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Finished high school.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Went into the service.

Mr. BELIN. What branch?

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Mr. HAYGOOD. Air Force.

Mr. BELIN. How long?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Four years to the day.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do in the Air Force, generally?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Ground crew chief, flight engineer.

Mr. BELIN. DO you have an honorable discharge?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got out of the Air Force?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Went to work for the Dallas Police Department.

Mr. BELIN. What year was that?

Mr. HAYGOOD. 1955.

Mr. BELIN. You have been with them ever since?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Other than 11 months in which I left the department.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do in that 11 months?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Went into a business of my own.

Mr. BELIN. Then went back to the department?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Were you on duty on November 22, 1963?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What was your assignment that day?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Solo motorcycle officer on escort of the Presidential motorcade.

Mr. BELIN. You started with the motorcade at Love Field

Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Went through town with him?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Where were you riding as you went through town?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Riding to the right rear of the Presidential car.

Mr. BELIN. How many cars back, if you remember?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Well, it varied. It would be hard to say as to how many cars back.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether Officer M. L. Baker was riding?

Mr. HAYGOOD. He was riding in front of me.

Mr. BELIN. So You would be riding several cars back, generally, from the President's car, is that correct?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did you hear any shots at all?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Where were you when you heard the shots?

Mr. HAYGOOD. I was on Main Street just approaching Houston Street.

Mr. BELIN. How many shots did you hear?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Three.

Mr. BELIN. Were the three spaced equally distant?

Mr. HAYGOOD. No.

Mr. BELIN. Go ahead.

Mr. HAYGOOD. No.

Mr. BELIN. Was one more close than the other one?

Mr. HAYGOOD. The last two were closer than the first. In other words, it was the first, and then a pause, and then the other two were real close.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do after you heard the sounds?

Mr. HAYGOOD. I made the shift down to lower gear and went on to the scene of the shooting.

Mr. BELIN. What do you mean by the scene of the shooting?

Mr. HAYGOOD. There on Main Street.

Mr. BELIN. On Main Street?

Mr. HAYGOOD. I am sorry, on Elm Street.

Mr. BELIN. What position of Elm Street?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Be just west of Houston Street.

Mr. BELIN. By the scene of the shooting, do you mean the place where you believed the President's car was when the bullets struck?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got there?

Mr. HAYGOOD. When I first got to the location there, I was still on Houston

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Street, and in the process of making a left turn onto Elm Street I could see all these people laying on the ground there on Elm. Some of them were pointing back up to the railroad yard, and a couple of people were headed back up that way, and I immediately tried to jump the north curb there in the 400 block, which was too high for me to get over.

Mr. BELIN. You mean with your motorcycle?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. HAYGOOD. And I left my motor on the street and ran to the railroad yard.

Mr. BELIN. Now when you ran to the railroad yard, would that be north or south of Elm?

Mr. HAYGOOD. The railroad yard would be located at the---it consists of going over Elm Street and back north of Elm Street.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got there?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Well, there was nothing. There was quite a few people in the area, spectators, and at that time I went back to my motorcycle it was on the street--to the radio.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see any people running away from there?

Mr. HAYGOOD. No. They was all going to it.

Mr. BELIN. Did you talk to any people over there or not?

Mr. HAYGOOD. In the railroad yard, I talked to one of the people I presumed to be a railroad detective that was in the yard.

Mr. BELIN. Had he been in the yard before or not?

Mr. HAYGOOD. No. He was just coming into the area after I was.

Mr. BELIN. He was coming into the area after the shooting?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say anything to you, that you remember?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Nothing that I remember.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. HAYGOOD. I went back to my motorcycle, which was sitting on Elm Street.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. HAYGOOD. At that time some people came up and started talking to me as to the shooting.

Mr. BELIN. What did they say?

Mr. HAYGOOD. One Stated that he had seen the President when the first shot was fired, and that he definitely was hit.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say where the shot came from?

Mr. HAYGOOD. And I asked him about where the shots came from, and he stated that he didn't know, that he was looking at him when the first shot was fired, and that he slumped. And when the second shot was fired, he went completely out of sight.

Mr. BELIN. You talked to any other witnesses there?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes. There was another one came up who was located, at the time he stated, on the south side of Elm Street back toward the triple underpass. Back, well, it would be north of the underpass there, and said he had gotten hit by a piece of concrete or something, and he did have a slight cut on his right cheek, upper portion of his cheek just to the right of his nose.

Mr. BELIN. Would he have been to the front or to the back of the Presidential car at the time of the shot?

Mr. HAYGOOD. I don't know what you mean to the front or the back.

Mr. BELIN. When he was standing, was he to the west or to the east of the President's car at the time of the shooting?

Mr. HAYGOOD. He would be to the south of it and then west.

Mr. BELIN. Southwest of it?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Talk to anyone else?

Mr. HAYGOOD. And at that time, approximately, well, I was talking to him at the time this other man came up and told me that he didn't know what it was about, but he was quite sure the shot had come from this building there which he pointed out to be the Texas School Book Depository Building.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say why?

Mr. HAYGOOD. He said when the-first shot was fired he glanced back and

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there was something in the building, he couldn't determine what it was, but it was just something there that he couldn't explain, but he was definite that the shots did come from there.

And after talking to him and the man that was on the other side that complained he was hit by a piece of concrete from the ricochet at that time, I called the dispatcher and asked for squads to cover the Texas School Book Depository Building off.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what your number was that day?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Beg your pardon?

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what number you used for calling the dispatcher that day?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes. My original call number is 142.

Mr. BELIN. I have here a Sawyer Deposition Exhibit A, which appears to be a transcript of a police radio log, and I notice that at 12:35 p.m., there is a call from 142 to 531. 531 is your station headquarters ?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Right.

Mr. BELIN. Do you want to read what you said ?

Mr. HAYGOOD. "I talked to a guy at the scene who says the shots were fired from the Texas School Book Depository Building with the Hertz Rent A Car sign on top."

Mr. BELIN. Is that what you said?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Approximately. I don't recall the exact words.

Mr. BELIN. There was a response to you. What does it say there?

Mr. HAYGOOD. "Get his name, address, phone number and all information you can."

Mr. BELIN. Did you do that?

Mr. HAYGOOD. No, I never.

Mr. BELIN. What happened?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Because I was told to go to the School Book Depository Building. I instructed the three different people to come to the front of the School Book Depository Building and remain there until they were talked to.

Mr. BELIN. You took these people that you had with you?

Mr. HAYGOOD. I did not take them, no.

Mr. BELIN. You instructed them to go there?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. In front of the School Book Depository?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. And remain there until someone talked to them?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Right.

Mr. BELIN. You don't know the names of these people?

Mr. HAYGOOD. No, I don't.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know who talked to thereat all?

Mr. HAYGOOD. No; I don't.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do then?

Mr. HAYGOOD. At that time I went to the School Building at the rear location of it, which would be

Mr. BELIN. To the back door?

Mr. HAYGOOD. North side of it, yes.

Mr. BELIN. Where that door leads out there to the dock?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes; on the northeast corner there.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do then?

Mr. HAYGOOD. At that time I talked to the colored male that was standing at the door and asked him how long he had been there, and he said he had been there some 5 minutes or so. And I asked him if anyone had came out that door, and he said that they had not.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember his name?

Mr. HAYGOOD. No; I don't.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. HAYGOOD. At that time, it was people, squads and all arriving at the scene, and I went on into the building, which they stayed outside, and helped them search the building.

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Mr. BELIN. Anything else?

Mr. HAYGOOD. That is about all.

Mr. BELIN. Did you search the building on the sixth floor or not?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Were you there when they found the rifle?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Were you there when they found the shells?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Where were you when the shells were found?

Mr. HAYGOOD. I was on the sixth floor when the shells were found. I was still on the sixth when they found the rifle on the fifth.

Mr. BELIN. On the fifth?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Sixth floor, rather, I am sorry.

Mr. BELIN. Where on the sixth floor were you when the shells were found?

Mr. HAYGOOD. I don't recall just exactly where it was at. It was on the floor though. It was just a big open floor.

Mr. BELIN. Do you mean they were somewhere on that open floor?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did you hear someone say they have shells, something like that?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember who that was?

Mr. HAYGOOD. No; I don't.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do then?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Went up to another location there.

Mr. BELIN. You saw some shells there?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Where did you see them?

Mr. HAYGOOD. They were there under the window.

Mr. BELIN. Which window?

Mr. HAYGOOD. On the southeast corner.

Mr. BELIN. South side or east side?

Mr. HAYGOOD. On the southeast corner facing south.

Mr. BELIN. See any paper bags or anything around there?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes; there was a lunch bag there. You could call it a lunch bag.

Mr. BALL. Where was that?

Mr. HAYGOOD. There at the same location where the shells were.

Mr. BELIN. Was there a coke bottle or anything with it?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Dr. Pepper bottle.

Mr. BELIN. See any long bags which would be a foot or foot and a half or more long?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes; just a plain brown paper bag with tape in the corner.

Mr. BELIN. What tape?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes; there was just brown paper tape on it. Just a brown paper bag with paper tape. It had been taped up.

Mr. BELIN. How long was that, if you can remember?

Mr. HAYGOOD. The exact length, I couldn't say. It was approximately rifle length.

Mr. BELIN. Would this have been right under the window, or to the east or west of the window, if you remember?

Mr. HAYGOOD. As I remember, it was directly in the corner, in the southeast corner.

Mr. BELIN. Well, as you remember, was the window directly in the southeast corner, or was the window a little bit to the west of that corner, if you remember?

Mr. HAYGOOD. The window at that location faces south, on the southeast corner.

Mr. BELIN. About how far from the east corner of the building is the window?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Well, it is just approximately like that, and then the corner here. Like the window would be there, and then it would be a corner.

Mr. BELIN. As far as the window in this room from that corner [indicating in room]?

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Mr. HAYGOOD. I wouldn't even attempt to say the approximate distance of the window from the corner. I don't know.

Mr. BELIN. Well, if you don't know, that is what I want to find out.

Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Was the bag right under the window?

Mr. HAYGOOD. It was in the corner.

Mr. BELIN. Not under the window?

Mr. HAYGOOD. No; it was in the corner of the building, the southeast corner.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else you noticed up there?

Mr. HAYGOOD. That is all.

Mr. BELIN. Now, where were you when you saw the when you heard a rifle had been found?

Mr. HAYGOOD. On the floor there, best as I can remember, and I went to that same location as the other one, just like I stated on the other one where the shells was found.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember where that rifle was found, roughly, or not?

Mr. HAYGOOD. It was in a row of books back on the opposite corner. Be on the west side of the building, back to the northwest corner.

Mr. BELIN. All right, anything else you remember while you were there?

Mr. HAYGOOD. No.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do after that, after the rifle was found?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Well, it still wasn't determined whether the assailant wasn't still in the building even at that time, even after the rifle was found, and the search was continued in the building for a while after that.

Mr. BELIN. Then' what did you do?

Mr. HAYGOOD. At that time after that I went to the street, went downstairs to the street.

Mr. BELIN. Did you participate in any other investigation that day?

Mr. HAYGOOD. No.

Mr. BELIN. What about on Saturday?

Mr. HAYGOOD. On Saturday I was on my way to Colorado.

Mr. BELIN. So you weren't around on Sunday either?

Mr. HAYGOOD. No. On Sunday when the other shooting was taking place, I was knee deep in snow in Colorado.

Mr. BELIN. Is there any other information you can think of, whether I. have asked it or not, that in any way would be relevant to the assassination of the President or the shooting of Officer Tippit?

Mr. HAYGOOD. No, nothing; I was out of town.

Mr. BELIN. All right, sir. We thank you very much for your cooperation here. You have an opportunity, if you want to come down and read this deposition and sign it before it goes to Washington, or you can waive the reading and signing of it and just have the court reporter send it directly to us, whatever you want to do?

Mr. HAYGOOD. It makes no difference.

Mr. BELIN. It makes no difference to us either.

Mr. HAYGOOD. Just waive the signing. I don't know when I can get back over here.

(Officer Haygood was summoned back in a few minutes from across the street at the Republic National Bank Building to answer the following question.)

Mr. BELIN. Officer Haygood, I will continue your deposition with one more question, if you would, and you are still under oath.

You mentioned in your sworn deposition that you talked to about two people that you saw, and you pointed it out in your transmission at 12:35 p.m., under your Call No. 142.

Is that correct?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Right.

Mr. BELIN. I notice on there another transmission at 12:37 p.m. Could you read what the transcript has there.

Mr. HAYGOOD. Well, this part of the deposition I covered it a while ago but I gave you, is when I called to have the Texas School Book Depository covered there. That is one of the witnesses I had that believed the shot came from that location.

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Mr. BELIN. Could you read what you said there?

Mr. HAYGOOD. It says, "Get men to cover the building, Texas School Book Depository, believe the shots came from there, facing it on Elm Street looking at the building it will be the second window from the end in the upper right hand corner."

Mr. BELIN. Did you say that?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Then the transmission made to you, 531 to 142 calling, "How many do you have there?" And you made a response which is?

Mr. HAYGOOD. "One guy possibly hit by a ricochet off the concrete and another seen the President slump."

Mr. BELIN. Were there two more people in addition to the one that you saw?

Mr. HAYGOOD. They are still the same people I was referring to back on the transmission that I made.

Mr. BELIN. How many different people did you talk to? One that was possibly hit by a ricochet?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Piece of concrete.

Mr. BELIN. Was he the one that saw the President slump?

Mr. HAYGOOD. No.

Mr. BELIN. Was there someone that saw the President slump, and a third stated it was from the second window from the end in the upper right-hand corner?

Mr. HAYGOOD. I don't recall how many it was. There was quite a chaos there at that time.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember if there were two or more than two?

Mr. HAYGOOD. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember anything about the description of the man that said that the shot came from the second window from the end in the upper right-hand corner?

Mr. HAYGOOD. No.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember if he was white or Negro?

Mr. HAYGOOD. He was a white man.

Mr. BELIN. Man or woman?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Man.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether he was young or medium or old?

Mr. HAYGOOD. That would be a guess on my part. I don't recall. He was just a medium age.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember if he was dressed in a suit or not a suit?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Best I remember, just sports clothes. I mean, it consisted of no tie or coat.

Mr. BELIN. Okay, thank you, sir.

E. D. Brewer

J. M. SMITH

TESTIMONY OF JOE MARSHALL SMITH

The testimony of Joe Marshall Smith was taken at 1 p.m., on July 23, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you rise and raise your right hand? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

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Mr. SMITH. I do.

Mr. LIEBELER. Please sit down. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am an attorney on the staff of the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. I have been authorized to take your testimony by the Commission, pursuant to authority granted to it by Executive Order No. 11130 dated November 29, 1963, and joint resolution of Congress No. 137. Under the rules of procedure, you are entitled to have an attorney present, and you are entitled to 3 days' notice of your hearing. I know you didn't get that, because I just called you this morning, but I assume that since you are here, you are prepared to go ahead without an attorney, is that correct?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you state your full name for the record?

Mr. SMITH. Joe Marshall Smith.

Mr. LIEBELER. What is your address?

Mr. SMITH. 12015 Androck. That is in Mesquite.

Mr. LIEBELER. When were you born?

Mr. SMITH. May 1, 1932.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where?

Mr. SMITH. Kleburg, Tex.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you outline briefly for us your educational background?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir. I went to grade school in Seagoville up to the second grade. Then I went to Houston, Tex., and finished elementary school there, and then to junior high school, and through high school in Houston, Tex. Then I went into the U.S. Navy.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are presently a uniformed officer of the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. SMITH. That's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you been with the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. SMITH. Oh, nearly 8 years, in September it will be.

Mr. LIEBELER. During that time, you have been working basically as a uniformed officer, patrolman?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you been working in any specific type of assignment, or just what has been the nature of your work?

Mr. SMITH. Well, I was in radio patrol 3 1/2 years. Then I went to traffic division point control, and that is what I am doing presently.

Mr. LIEBELER. I understand that you were assigned to work in the vicinity of Elm and Houston on November 22, 1963, is that correct?

Mr. SMITH. Correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us when you first got that assignment and what you were told.

Mr. SMITH. At approximately 8:45 or 9 o'clock that morning, November 22, we made detail, and Capt. P. W. Lawrence gave us the instructions that we were to, of course, hold the traffic up when the motorcade came through, and to assist in the crowd control, and be specifically on the lookout for anyone throwing anything from the crowd. That is about all I remember.

Mr. LIEBELER. How many officers were with you as you were instructed at the detail at 8:45? That means, there was a formation of something in the office?

Mr. SMITH. There was quite a few there. I don't know how many were there, but nearly the whole traffic department was there.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did they all receive instructions from Captain Lawrence at the same time, or were they different specific instructions broken down?

Mr. SMITH. There were some broken down instructions that some of the men had to stay over to get different detail aimed to them, but that was my instructions.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you receive those instructions in writing, or delivered orally?

Mr. SMITH. Delivered orally.

Mr. LIEBELER. In other words, the captain or someone working with the captain would have a list and he assigned certain men to certain places and gave them general instructions as to what they were to do; is that correct?

Mr. SMITH. That's correct.

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Mr. LIEBELER. Men from the department were assigned all along the motorcade route from the airport into downtown Dallas; is that correct?

Mr. SMITH. Correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. And other men were given instructions similar to or the same as the ones that you were given?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Which was to keep traffic out of the way when the motorcade was coming, and keep an open and clear route, and to engage in general crowd control activities?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were there any instructions given to you men about scanning buildings?

Mr. SMITH. Sir, I don't remember. It is more or less the general thing to do. I mean, just police the area. But I don't remember any specific instructions on that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now after you received your instructions at 8:45, what did you do?

Mr. SMITH. I proceeded to the intersection of Elm and Houston, and it was about 9:50 or 10 o'clock when I was on the corner there. At approximately 11:50 or 12 o'clock, there was a white male that had an epileptic seizure on the esplanade on Houston Street between Main and Elm. Well, I went down to see if any assistance was needed, and I stayed there until the white male was loaded into an ambulance and sent to a hospital. Then I proceeded back to my assignment.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were there any other officers there in connection with this fellow that had the epileptic fit?

Mr. SMITH. Yes; there was one more. He was a radio patrolman.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember his name?

Mr. SMITH. I don't remember his name. I swear, I was trying to think of it before this even.

Mr. LIEBELER. He was a radio patrolman? You mean he was driving a motorcycle or had a car?

Mr. SMITH. No; he was assigned, I think, if I am not mistaken, I think he was assigned to Main and Houston, and he was down there with the man when arrived at the scene.

Mr. LIEBELER. So you called an ambulance, or an ambulance was called and this man was taken away, and you went back to the corner of Elm and Houston Streets?

Mr. SMITH. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. How many officers were assigned at Elm and Houston?

Mr. SMITH. Three of us.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who were the other two men?

Mr. SMITH. W. E. Barnett, and E. L. Smith. I think that is his initials. I know it is another Smith boy anyway.

Mr. LIEBELER. How did you station yourself when you got there?

Mr. SMITH. Just after we got the epileptic seizure en route to the hospital, I hadn't gotten back to the corner but just a few minutes until the motorcade was coming, so I stationed myself on Elm Street in the middle from the southeast curb of Elm and Houston and held traffic up.

Mr. LIEBELER. Which direction would this traffic have been coming from that you held up?

Mr. SMITH. It was heading west on Elm.

Mr. LIEBELER. Coming down Elm toward the triple underpass? Coming into the intersection of Elm and Houston?

Mr. SMITH. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. So you were the individual patrolman who went back and held up the traffic to Elm. Street; is that right?

Mr. SMITH. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. So you would have been on the eastern side of Houston Street on Elm Street holding up the traffic that was coming down Elm Street?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. From that position, could you have observed the windows on

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the side of the Texas School Book Depository Building from which the shots were fired?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; I could see some of the windows. I couldn't see them all, but I was pretty busy getting traffic held up, and I must admit I had my back to the Texas School Book Depository Building.

Mr. LIEBELER. Because you were facing traffic that was coming down Elm Street toward the triple underpass toward the intersection of Houston Street?

Mr. SMITH. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. So you had no opportunity to scan the windows of the Texas School Book Depository Building at all?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you did not scan the building?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now did you notice anything extraordinary in the crowd as far as a crowd control is concerned? Did you have any problems in that connection, or was it just a matter of holding up the traffic?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir; we didn't have any trouble with the crowd at that .particular intersection. They stayed back pretty well as they were told, and I got all the cars stopped, so I thought we had it made.

Mr. LIEBELER. I show you a picture, an aerial view of the area that is marked Commission Exhibit No. 354. Could you locate the Texas School Book Depository Building in there?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; it should be right there.

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; that is it on the left-hand side of the picture, and of course, the intersection of Elm and Houston is right off opposite the corner there, right at the corner of the Texas School Book Depository Building, and you were standing to the east?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; right here.

Mr. LIEBELER. Of Houston?

Mr. SMITH. Right along in this area.

Mr. LIEBELER. There is, in fact, a picture of a car stopped there right at the intersection of Elm and Houston, and you had been standing back in the vicinity of the automobile?

Mr. SMITH. Just about the middle of Elm Street here.

Mr. LIEBELER. I will put the No. 4 in a circle on the spot of approximately where you were standing at the time the motorcade went by. Is that approximately correct?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. You were facing east up Elm Street away from the triple underpass?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. So that your back was in fact turned to the School Book Depository Building?

Mr. SMITH. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now there are two or three other buildings here in the immediate vicinity as you are facing east on Elm Street. There is a building on your left, which is directly across Houston Street from the School Book Depository Building. Do you know what building that is?

Mr. SMITH. I know, but I can't remember now.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you observe any activity in any of the windows of that building?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir; I didn't

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have occasion to look to the windows of that building at any time when the motorcade came by? That would be the building to your left.

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir. I don't recall, but I know that I must have, because. I was trying to keep all the crowd in sight that was around. I know that I must have glanced at it, but I don't recall seeing anything unusual.

Mr. LIEBELER. What about the building across Elm Street on your right? That is the county building?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. There are a series of windows in that building facing the

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triple underpass. Could you observe those windows from the point where you were standing?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir; not where I could tell whether they were open or closed.

Mr. LIEBELER. Because you were standing too far up Elm Street to have a good vantage point from which to observe these windows?

Mr. SMITH. I mean on Houston Street.

Mr. LIEBELER. That is what I mean.

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. You wouldn't have been able to see the windows of the building that is down on the intersection of Main and Houston Streets at all from where you were standing?

Mr. SMITH. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. If you could have seen, it would have been with great difficulty, so you weren't in position to observe those windows, and you didn't in fact observe them, is that correct?

Mr. SMITH. Correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. While you were standing here and the motorcade went by, tell us what happened at that point.

Mr. SMITH. I heard the shots.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you turn to watch the motorcade? Did you turn to watch the President as the motorcade went by?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; I glanced around and was watching the crowd to make sure they stayed back out of the way of the motorcade, and also to make sure none of the cars started up or anything. Then I heard the shots, and I immediately proceeded from this point.

Mr. LIEBELER. Point 4 on Commission Exhibit No. 354?

Mr. SMITH. I started up toward this Book Depository after I heard the shots, and I didn't know where the shots came from. I had no idea, because it was such a ricochet.

Mr. LIEBELER. An echo effect?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.; and this woman came up to me and she was just in hysterics. She told me, "They are shooting the President from the bushes." So I immediately proceeded up here.

Mr. LIEBELER. You proceeded up to an area immediately behind the concrete structure here that is described by Elm Street and the street that runs immediately in front of the Texas School Book Depository, is that right?

Mr. SMITH. I was checking all the bushes and I checked all the cars in the parking lot.

Mr. LIEBELER. There is a parking lot in behind this grassy area back from Elm Street toward the railroad tracks, and you went down to the parking lot and looked around?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; I checked all the cars. I looked into all the cars and checked around the bushes. Of course, I wasn't alone. There was some deputy sheriff with me, and I believe one Secret Service man when I got there.

I got to make this statement, too. I felt awfully silly, but after the shot and this woman, I pulled my pistol from my holster, and I thought, this is silly, I don't know who I am looking for, and I put it back. Just as I did, he showed me that he was a Secret Service agent.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you accost this man?

Mr. SMITH. Well, he saw me coming with my pistol and right away he showed me who he was.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember who it was?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir; I don't--because then we started checking the cars. In fact, I was checking the bushes, and I went through the cars, and I started over here in this particular section.

Mr. LIEBELER. Down toward the railroad tracks where they go over the triple underpass?

Mr. SMITH. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any basis for believing where the shots came from, or where to look for somebody, other than what the lady told you?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir; except that maybe it was a power of suggestion. But it sounded to me like they may have came from this vicinity here.

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Mr. LIEBELER. Down around the---let's put a No. 5 there at the corner here behind this concrete structure where the bushes were down toward the railroad tracks from the Texas School Book Depository Building on the little street that runs down in front of the Texas School Book Depository Building.

Mr. SMITH. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now you say that you had the idea that the shots may have come from up in that area?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; that is just what, well, like I say, the sound of it. That was the most helpless and hopeless feeling I ever had.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, you mentioned before there was an echo from the shots in the area.

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Probably caused by the fact that there are some large buildings around the area where the shots were fired from?

Mr. SMITH. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now did you at any time have occasion to look up to the railroad tracks that went across the triple underpass?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; I looked up there after I was going up to check there.

Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't have any occasion to 'look up there before you heard the shots?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. After you heard the shots, you proceeded down along the bushes here between the street that runs in front of the Texas School Book Depository Building and Elm Street to approximately point 5, and then when you went down looking to the cars, you then had occasion to look up at the railroad tracks running over the triple underpass?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see anybody up there?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; there was two other officers there, I know.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were there any other people up there, that you can remember?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir; none that I remember.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you remember that there were two police officers up there?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now you searched these cars in this parking lot area down there by the railroad tracks on from point 5 down toward the main railroad tracks that cross over the triple underpass. Did you find anything that you could associate in any way with the assassination?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. How long did you remain down in that area?

Mr. SMITH. Oh, I would say approximately 15 to 20 minutes.

Mr. LIEBELER. During that time, you continued searching through automobiles and searching the general area in the parking lot back there; is that right?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did you do after you had searched this area?

Mr. SMITH. Well, it was, I don't remember whether this was a deputy sheriff--I don't know his name he was in civilian clothes--he said they came from the building up here. And by that time, of course, all the police around there sealed the building off, and I went to the front door here on the, well, you might say, the Houston Street side. I and Barnett, and we sealed the front door and didn't let anyone in or out until he was passed by the chief.

Mr. LIEBELER. Let me ask you this. Before you went up to the School Book Depository Building, am I correct in understanding that you did thoroughly search the area of the parking lot, you and the other officers?

Mr. SMITH. Well, now, I didn't go into all the cars. I looked into them, and I was well satisfied in my mind that he wasn't around there.

Some of the cars were locked, and I just looked into all of them around there, and I went back to the building.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who gave you instructions to go to the front door of that building, do you remember?

Mr. SMITH. I believe it was Sergeant Howard.

Mr. LIEBELER. Sergeant Howard?

Mr. SMITH. Sergeant Howard, or Sergeant Harkness.

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Mr. LIEBELER. So to the best of your recollection, it was one of those two men?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir. Wait---let's strike that. No; it wasn't. It was Chief Lumpkin give us the direct order, I and Barnett, not to let anyone in or out of that building; that's right--Deputy Chief Lumpkin.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you see him in order to receive that order?

Mr. SMITH. I started back up here to the building, and we were just about at the front door when he contacted me and Barnett then.

Mr. LIEBELER. He instructed you and Barnett to stand at the front door and not let anyone in or out?

Mr. SMITH. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know approximately what time that was?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir; it must have been about 1. It was after I o'clock. I don't remember; no.

Mr. LIEBELER. How long did you and Barnett remain there at the front door?

Mr. SMITH. Until about 2:30; I think I got off there.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you at any time go into the building?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether other men were assigned to watch the back door?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir; I don't know. I am quite certain there was.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you had no personal knowledge of it at the time?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Because you were assigned to the front door, and that is where you stayed?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. In fact, did you let anybody in or out of the building?

Mr. SMITH. Well, now, we let police officers in, of course, and firemen.

Mr. LIEBELER. The firemen came into the building?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; there was something on that that they had to get some--- what was that, I don't recall what it was that they come in there for now.

Mr. LIEBELER There were some firemen from the Dallas Fire Department that went into the building?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did they come back to the front door?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. How about Secret Service; were there any Secret Service agents around?

Mr. SMITH. I don't know, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Agent Sorrels, the agent in charge of the Dallas office of the Secret Service?

Mr. SMITH. I saw him a few minutes, but I don't know him personally.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember seeing him around that day?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir; I don't remember.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you at any time see Lee Harvey Oswald come in or out of the building, or in the area at all?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is there anything that happened while you were standing there with Barnett at the front door that you think would be of significance that the Commission should know about that I haven't asked you about?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. LIEBELER. You just maintained the general guard duty there and only let the police officers and fire department in, and you don't have any specific recollection as to Secret Service agents. How about FBI agents; were there some of those?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; there were FBI agents.

Mr. LIEBELER. You let them go in?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember any specific FBI agents that were there?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir; I don't remember any of the names.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who finally relieved you from that particular duty post?

Mr. SMITH. Let me think here a minute now. Chief Lumpkin, I know--I don't recall who the officer was.

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Mr. LIEBELER. I don't think it is of any particular importance if you can't recall. What did you do after you were finally relieved?

Mr. SMITH. I don't know if this is of significance either, but they had set up, the Salvation Army had some coffee and I had a cup of coffee and proceeded on back to the Mercantile Bank. I had an extra job there that evening.

Mr. LIEBELER. You were relieved from your duty post?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. And went on about your own personal affairs?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you conduct any additional investigation or have to do with the investigation of the assassination after that?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know Officer Tippit?

Mr. SMITH. Remotely. I didn't know him real well. Just knew him when I saw him.

Mr. LIEBELER. When did you first hear about Oswald's capture?

Mr. SMITH. It was after I left my post.

Mr. LIEBELER. After you left your post?

Mr. SMITH. Yes; in fact, just before I got off from working at the bank. Just before 6 o'clock. A squad of detectives, I don't recall their names, but they told me they got a man over at the Texas Theatre that they thought might have been the one.

Mr. LIEBELER. After you heard the shots and went from point 4 on Commission Exhibit No. 354 down to point 5 searching the bushy area here, did you have any occasion to look up in the windows of any of the buildings surrounding the intersection of Elm and Houston Streets?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir; I was--pardon the expression--beating the bushes and checking the cars.

Mr. SMITH. No sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Are you familiar with the traffic patterns on these three streets here, Commerce, Main, and Elm Streets, as they go down under the triple underpass?

Mr. SMITH Yes sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. The motorcade came down Main Street from the east to intersection of Main Street and Houston, did it not?

Mr. SMITH. Yes; headed west on Main.

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; and it turned right on Houston Street and then turned left on Elm and was headed toward the triple underpass when the assassination occurred. What would have prevented the motorcade from going directly down Main Street under the triple underpass, remembering now that the motorcade wanted to go onto Stemmons Freeway?

Mr. SMITH. I don't know, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, could you have gone straight down Main Street and gotten onto Stemmons Freeway down here?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where the three streets go under the triple overpass, there is a concrete barrier between Elm Street and Main Street; is there not?

Mr. SMITH. What do you mean?

Mr. LIEBELER. Where the streets actually go under the railroad tracks here.

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIBELER. Now where is the entrance as we go off, as we see the three streets going off the picture here, Commission Exhibit No. 354? Where is the entrance to the Stemmons Freeway?

Mr. SMITH. It is back off.

Mr. LIEBELER. It is not shown on the picture?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir; it is back off here.

Mr. LIEBELER. To go down Stemmons Expressway or Freeway towards the trade mart, you would have to turn how? Would you turn to your right?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now could you have actually gone off to the right and crossed

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over Elm Street if you had been on Main Street and gone under the triple underpass?

Mr. SMITH. They merge.

Mr. LIEBELER. They all merge together down there?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. So as far as you know, there was no reason why the motorcade couldn't have gone straight down Elm Street and gone on to the Stemmons Freeway headed for the trade mart?

Mr. SMITH. As far as I know, there is no reason.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is it possible that as you come down Main Street, if you stayed directly on Main Street going under the triple underpass, that you might have difficulty in making the turn with a big car from Main Street to go onto Stem-mons Freeway?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. I don't think I have any more questions about the situation, unless you can think of something else that you might have seen or observed that day that I haven't asked you about, that you think the Commission should know.

Mr. SMITH. Sir, I just can't think of anything else.

Mr. LIEBELER. I want to thank you very much for coming over. I appreciate your cooperation.

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; thank you.

Welcome Eugene Barnett

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Page 539

JOHNSON, MARVIN DPD Volume VII

TESTIMONY OF MARVIN JOHNSON

The testimony of Marvin Johnson was taken at 4 p.m. on April 6, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BELIN. Would you want to stand and raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. JOHNSON. I do.

Mr. BELIN. Would you please state your name?

Mr. JOHNSON. Marvin Johnson.

Mr. BELIN. Where do you live, Mr. Johnson?

Mr. JOHNSON. Route 3, Box 279, Terrell, Tex.

Mr. BELIN. What is your occupation?

Mr. JOHNSON. Police officer.

Mr. BELIN. For whom?

Mr. JOHNSON. Employed by the city of Dallas.

Mr. BELIN. Were you born and raised in Texas?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Go to school in Texas?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. How far did you go through high school?

Mr. JOHNSON. I finished the eighth grade.

Mr. BELIN. You finished the eighth grade?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. JOHNSON. Went to work.

Mr. BELIN. By way of general background, what kind of work did you do?

Mr. JOHNSON. I started out working with a dairy, and dairy farm. And went from that to ice route. From there I went to work at North American Aircraft, and then the Army.

Mr. BELIN. When did you go in the Army?

Mr. JOHNSON. Infantry.

Mr. BELIN. When was that?

Mr. JOHNSON. 1944. September 1944.

Mr. BELIN. Then you were discharged in 1946?

Mr. JOHNSON. February 1946; yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Honorably discharged?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. JOHNSON. Then I went back to Aircraft.

Mr. BELIN. How long did you work in Aircraft?

Mr. JOHNSON. I worked there 11 months that time, and they had a layoff. I got laid off, and I went back to peddling ice, and peddled ice for about 6 months. Well, one summer. Then that is when I went to Terrell and went in the dairy business for myself.

Mr. BELIN. You went what?

Mr. JOHNSON. I went to Terrell and went in the dairy business for myself.

Mr. BELIN. Yes.

Mr. JOHNSON. Then I had that 5 years, and then came here.

Mr. BELIN. So you have been with the Dallas Police Department since what year?

Mr. JOHNSON. 1953.

Mr. BELIN. How old are you?

Mr. JOHNSON. Forty-three.

Mr. BELIN. What was your position with the Dallas Police Department in November of 1963?

Mr. JOHNSON. Detective, assigned to the homicide and robbery bureau.

Mr. BELIN. Are you still assigned to that bureau today?

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Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. As a detective?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. On November 22, 1963, were you on duty?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you have anything to do with the Presidential motorcade?

Mr. JOHNSON. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. At approximately what time did you find out about the shooting of the President, to the best of your recollection?

Mr. JOHNSON. Must have been about 12:40, I guess.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do after you found out about it?

Mr. JOHNSON. Returned to the office.

Mr. BELIN. Returned to your office?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Had you been out on duty in a patrol car away from the office at the time?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir. We had just made an arrest prior to checking out on a hijacking.

Mr. BELIN. Did you have a chance to eat that day or not? I mean lunch.

Mr. JOHNSON. No, sir; didn't eat lunch.

Mr. BELIN. Well, you got back to the office. Then what did you do?

Mr. JOHNSON. I was instructed by Lieutenant Wells to go to the Texas Book Depository.

Mr. BELIN. To go to the Texas Book Depository?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. About what time did you get there?

Mr. JOHNSON. Around 1 o'clock.

Mr. BELIN. Where did you go when you got there?

Mr. JOHNSON. To the sixth floor.

Mr. BELIN. Any particular reason why you went to the sixth floor?

Mr. JOHNSON. When we first arrived, we asked--we walked into the building and there was a uniform officer on duty there at the door, and we asked him if Captain Fritz was there, and he said yes.

And we asked him where, and he said he went on up to the sixth floor.

So at that time we were interested really in contacting Captain Fritz for any particular assignment he might want to give us, so we went on up to the sixth floor, and he was there, and that is when he assigned L. D. Montgomery, my partner and myself to the scene where the shooting occurred.

Mr. BELIN. When he assigned it to you, did he say anything that this was the scene where the shooting occurred, or did he just assign an area at that time which you later found out to be the scene from which the shooting occurred?

Mr. JOHNSON. We had already been there a few minutes when he told us to stay there and preserve the scene. Actually at the time he told us that, we knew that that was where the shooting had occurred, because that is, the hulls were on the floor. We knew all that already.

Mr. BELIN. In other words, when you got there, or when you talked to Captain Fritz, the hulls, the three hulls had already been found in a particular portion of the sixth floor, is that correct?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir; I had heard somebody already say. I had already seen them.

Mr. BELIN. You mentioned the No. 3, is that how many there were?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know or remember what portion of the sixth floor this was?

Mr. JOHNSON. Well, yes; they were underneath a window right near a window.

Mr. BELIN. On what side of the building was the window on, north, east, south, or west?

Mr. JOHNSON. That is east. The window is actually on the south side of the building, and the window is the farthest east.

Mr. BELIN. The window would be the furtherest east window on the south side of the building, is that correct?

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Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Would you call that the southeast corner of that floor?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. How soon after the hulls were found did you go over to see them?

Mr. JOHNSON. I couldn't say.

Mr. BELIN. Were you there when they actually found it?

Mr. JOHNSON. Well, Captain Fritz was already there. There is a possibility--I am pretty sure they already found that when we got up there.

Mr. BELIN. What did Captain Fritz instruct you to do?

Mr. JOHNSON. To remain there and protect the scene.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Handing you what has already been marked "RLS Deposition Exhibit G"--the RLS stands for R. L. Studebaker--I would ask you to state if you know, whether or not these shell cases appear to be in the same position as they were when you saw them there?

Mr. JOHNSON. There is only two that show in that photograph, that I see.

Mr. BELIN. Well, I see one, two right by the window. You see those two

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Then there is one over here, which would be the west, by a box that is marked from "Scott Foresman & Company." See that there?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, I see it. All I can say, at the time these hulls were mentioned, I went over there and looked. I don't remember them being that far out.

Mr. BELIN. What I am asking is your best recollection. Let's take the hulls one by one. There are two hulls that appear to be right next to the bricks?

Mr. JOHNSON. Next to the wall; yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Do they appear to be in the approximate position when you first saw them?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Does the one which is the farthest to the east appear to be as close to the next one lying at the brick wall as it was?

Mr. JOHNSON. Well, of course, I couldn't remember exactly how far. It was my impression that they were all three next to the wall. I could have been wrong.

Mr. BELIN. Your impression, at least the best of your recollection is that this third shell which is in the picture next to the book carton, was closer to the wall?

Mr. JOHNSON. I thought they were all three closer to the wall.

Mr. BELIN. When Captain Fritz told you to preserve the scene, what did you do?

Mr. JOHNSON. Now you got to remember he told L. D. Montgomery, my partner, and I to preserve the scene, and we remained there near that corner.

Now over to the right, which would be back toward the west of the window, there was a lunch sack--a brown paper bag--and some remnants of fried chicken, and a pop bottle.

And I stayed closer to that pop bottle while we were waiting for the crime lab to finish their work.

Mr. BELIN. Now there was a sack and a pop bottle. Was there anything else other than the sack and the pop bottle?

Mr. JOHNSON. And the remnants of fried chicken.

Mr. BELIN. The remnants of fried chicken, was that right by that window, or was it by another set of windows?

Mr. JOHNSON. That was by some other window.

Mr. BELIN. Now there are, I believe, on the south side of the building, seven pairs of windows?

Mr. JOHNSON. I didn't count them. I couldn't say.

Mr. BELIN. Would you say it was toward the east, or the west, or the center?

Mr. JOHNSON. Where the sack was?

Mr. BELIN. Yes.

Mr. JOHNSON. It would be toward the west. I believe the next set of windows to my--I am pretty sure it was.

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Mr. BELIN. You said it would be in the second pair of windows counting from the east wall?

Mr. JOHNSON. To the west.

Mr. BELIN. Is where you found it, was it between the second and the third set of windows or between the first and the second, or right by the second?

Mr. JOHNSON. Right by the second pair of windows.

Mr. BELIN. Now you stayed over there?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. And your partner, Detective Montgomery, stayed over by the first pair of windows?

Mr. JOHNSON. By the corner.

Mr. BELIN. By the corner window, southwest corner of the sixth floor?

Were you there when Lieutenant Day and Studebaker came in to take pictures?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know of your own personal knowledge whether anything prior to the time that they took the first set of pictures up had been moved there?

Mr. JOHNSON. No, sir; as far as I know, they hadn't been moved. They weren't supposed to have been, and that was our job to keep them out of there, and nobody came in there, I am pretty sure.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Now, a rifle was found on the sixth floor, was it not?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. When the rifle was found, did you leave your post?

Mr. JOHNSON. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What about Detective Montgomery?

Mr. JOHNSON. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you find anything else up in the southeast corner of the sixth floor? We have talked about the rifle, we have talked about the shells, we have talked about the chicken bones and the lunch sack and the pop bottle by that second pair of windows. Anything else?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir. We found this brown paper sack or case. It was made out of heavy wrapping paper. Actually, it looked similar to the paper that those books was wrapped in. It was just a long narrow paper bag.

Mr. BELIN. Where was this found?

Mr. JOHNSON. Right in the corner of the building.

Mr. BELIN. On what floor?

Mr. JOHNSON. Sixth floor.

Mr. BELIN. Which corner?

Mr. JOHNSON. Southeast corner.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know who found it?

Mr. JOHNSON. I know that the first I saw of it, L. D. Montgomery, my partner, picked it up off the floor, and it was folded up, and he unfolded it.

Mr. BELIN. When it was folded up, was it folded once or refolded?

Mr. JOHNSON. It was folded and then refolded. It was a fairly small package.

Mr. BELIN. Now do you know where this sack was with relation to the first window, counting from the east portion of the south side of the building?

Mr. JOHNSON. It still would be over toward the east from the windows.

Mr. BELIN. It would be east of the windows?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes; right at the corner. Of course, those windows are not too far from the east wall, but that sack was right in the corner.

Mr. BELIN. Handing you what has been marked "RLS Deposition Exhibit"-that appears to be G--it is picture No. 26, there are some pipes that appear to be in that picture, is that correct? Some vertical pipes?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Where would the sack have been found with reference to those vertical pipes? These vertical pipes, I believe, on the south side of the sixth floor near the east corner?

Mr. JOHNSON. That sack would be over near the corner of the building here [pointing].

Mr. BELIN. Would all the sack be east of the pipes, or would part of the sack be sticking out west of the pipes?

Mr. JOHNSON. The way it was folded, it would all have to be over here.

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Mr. BELIN. Your testimony then is that all the sack would have been east of the pipes. Is that correct?

Mr. JOHNSON. I would say that the sack was folded up here and it was east of the pipes in the corner. To the best of my memory, that is where my partner picked it up. I was standing there when he picked it up.

Mr. BELIN. You were standing there when he picked it up?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, because the Crime Lab was already finished where I was, and I had already walked off to where he was.

Mr. BELIN. Now there was a book carton located, one standing by itself in that picture----it would be located northeast of the pipes. Is that correct?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did the sack appear to be as long as that book carton was?

Mr. JOHNSON. I didn't compare it to that book carton.

Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this. Do you remember book cartons there to the north of where the sack was found?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir. Actually, these cartons were stacked all the way around this thing.

I don't know, this book carton right here, unless that is the one that is stacked there, if I had a picture showing this whole scene you see, there was some other cartons stacked in front of this window. Now I don't know whether this is the one that was behind them or not. This might be just one sitting out over there out of the way.

Mr. BELIN. We don't have a picture here that shows all of the cartons, at least I don't have it right here at the time we are taking this deposition, that shows all of the cartons, but let me--

Mr. JOHNSON. Just from memory, I would say that that sack would be a little longer than those book cartons.

Mr. BELIN. All right, what is the fact as to whether or not the penned rectangle on RLS Deposition Exhibit G--does any portion of that rectangle represent the place where the paper was found, assuming that is the southeast corner?

Mr. JOHNSON. It looks like somebody penned that in to show the sack was laying there. That would show it unfolded.

Mr. BELIN. Well, what you would say then is that the penned portion is actually longer than the sack before it was unfolded, is that what you are saying?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes. It shows to be here, if you are taking this as actual size.

Mr. BELIN. Right. Of course, this is photographed at an angle and sometimes this can be inaccurate insofar as perspective. But would this penned in the approximate same distance from the south wall that you saw the sack?

Mr. JOHNSON. Well, I couldn't say exact distance. All I know is my partner picked that up right out of that corner, and how far it was from the wall in either direction, I don't know.

Mr. BELIN. Would it be somewhere in the location of where the penned in rectangle is on RLS Deposition Exhibit G?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes; it would be in this corner, in the southeast corner of the building, and there were some pipes on that side. It would be in that corner--in the southeast corner of that building.

Mr. BELIN. All right, is there anything else you can remember about that sack?

Mr. JOHNSON. No; other than like I said, my partner picked it up and we unfolded it and it appeared to be about the same shape as a rifle case would be. In other words, we made the remark that that is what he probably brought it in.

That is why, the reason we saved it.

Mr. BELIN. Did you find anything else up in the sixth floor that you feel might be relevant insofar as the investigation of the assassination is concerned?

Mr. JOHNSON. No; I don't remember anything right off. Anything else that was preserved as evidence?

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Mr. BELIN. Yes.

Mr. JOHNSON. Other than I know we kept the lunch sack and the Dr. Pepper bottle.

Mr. BELIN. You did keep the lunch sack?

Mr. JOHNSON. Sir?

Mr. BELIN. You did keep the lunch sack?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Where is it?

Mr. JOHNSON. We turned it into the crime lab.

Mr. BELIN. You mean your police department crime lab?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever dust it for prints or not, or do you know?

Mr. JOHNSON. Well, now, the lunch sack itself, sir?

Mr. BELIN. Yes.

Mr. JOHNSON. I don't know whether they did or not. Now that sack we are talking about, it was dusted right there at the scene.

Mr. BELIN. That is the long paper sack you found in the southeast corner? I mean as far as the lunch sack is concerned?

Mr. JOHNSON. No, the lunch sack, I don't know. We turned it in, but I never did hear after that what he did with it. I am pretty sure they did use it for something.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else you can think of that is relevant in any way whatsoever to the investigation of the assassination?

Mr. JOHNSON. No; I don't remember anything else.

Mr. BELIN. Well, we surely want to thank you for your cooperation, Mr. Johnson.

You have the right, if you desire, to read the transcription of your testimony here and then sign the deposition, or you can waive the signing and have the court reporter send it to us directly in Washington. Do you care to read it, or do you want to waive the signing of it?

Mr. JOHNSON. I'd better read it.

Mr. BELIN. All right, you will be contacted when it is ready.

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SAWYER VOLUME VI

The testimony of J. Herbert Sawyer was taken at 3:45 p.m., on April 8, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BELIN. Would you stand and raise your right hand.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. SAWYER. I do.

Mr. BELIN. What As your occupation?

Mr. SAWYER. Inspector of Police.

Mr. BELIN. Of what Police Department?

Mr. SAWYER. Dallas Police Department.

Mr. BELIN. You live here in Dallas?

Mr. SAWYER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Inspector, how long have you been with the Police Department?

Mr. SAWYER. 23 years.

Mr. BELIN. That would be then you came to the Police Department around 1941 or so?

Mr. SAWYER. 1941, is right.

Mr. BELIN. You have been with them ever since 1941?

Mr. SAWYER. Except for a brief hitch in the Service during the war.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do in the Service?

Mr. SAWYER. I was a yeoman in the Navy.

Mr. BELIN. Honorable discharge?

Mr. SAWYER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Prior to going into the Service, what did you do?

Mr. SAWYER. Policeman.

Mr. BELIN. Before you went into the Service?

Mr. SAWYER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did you go to school here in Dallas?

Mr. SAWYER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Graduated from high school?

Mr. SAWYER. Yes. I didn't graduate. I lacked half a year.

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Mr. BELIN. Then you got out and you went in--did you go right on the police force then?

Mr. SAWYER. No.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do?

Mr. SAWYER. I worked as credit manager in a jewelry company. This was immediately prior to coming to the police department.

Before that, I was a doorman at the Mural Room of the Baker Hotel.

Mr. BELIN. When you first got out of high school, what did you do?

Mr. SAWYER. I went out to California and went to work as a clerk in a grocery store.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do after that?

Mr. SAWYER. Came back to Dallas and went to Business College, and then I went to work as a doorman at the Mural Room of the Baker Hotel. And then from there I went to the jewelry, and later became credit manager.

Mr. BELIN. And then after that?

Mr. SAWYER Then to the Police Department.

Mr. BELIN. You have been with the Police Department ever since except for this time in the Navy?

Mr. SAWYER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. How old are you?

Mr. SAWYER. 47.

Mr. BELIN. You are married ?

Mr. SAWYER Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Inspector, were you on duty on November 22, 1963?

Mr. SAWYER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. By the way, were you an Inspector at that time?

Mr. SAWYER. I was.

Mr. BELIN. Where were you stationed with reference to the motorcade? Just what were your duties?

Mr. SAWYER. I had charge of the crowd detail on Main Street from Akard to Harwood.

Mr. BELIN. After the motorcade passed, what did you do?

Mr. SAWYER. I headed west on Main Street.

Mr. BELIN. Did you immediately get in your car after the motorcade passed?

Mr. SAWYER. Well, not immediately, because the crowd was real thick and completely surrounded the car, but I did as soon as it was feasible to get back in the car.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember where your car was parked?

Mr. SAWYER. Yes. It was parked on Ervay Street, at the intersection of Ervay and Main, but it was, well, it was on the north side of Main Street on Ervay. It runs parallel to Main Street.

Mr. BELIN. All right, you got in your car shortly after the motorcade passed then?

Mr. SAWYER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. SAWYER. Well, I headed west, or tried to. I had to wait until the crowd cleared out, and as soon as the crowd cleared enough, I headed west on Main Street.

Mr. BELIN. Any particular reason why you headed west on Main Street?

Mr. SAWYER. Because that was the way the car was pointed at the time I got in.

Mr. BELIN. All right, then what did you do as you went west on Main Street?

Mr. SAWYER. I just went real slow down the street because of people crossing, and at the time, the radio broadcast came in about a lot of activity down at the lower end around Houston and Elm Street.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what radio broadcast this is? Who broadcast it?

Mr. SAWYER. I heard Sheriff Decker come on the radio and tell the dispatcher to get all of his men over to, and I thought he said Texas School Book Depository, but at least that was the overall gist of the conversation. That

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is what I gathered. He may not have said Texas School Book Depository, but the Texas School Book Depository was mentioned in the broadcasts that were made at that time.

Mr. BELIN. Was this on Channel 1 or Channel 2 if you remember?

Mr. SAWYER. Channel 2, I am sure.

Mr. BELIN. Did Sheriff Decker have any particular call number at all, or not, in your police number system?

Mr. SAWYER. No. I was wondering why he come on our radio, but then I think that he was with Chief Curry and probably using that radio.

Mr. BELIN. All right, in any event, a call was made from Chief Curry's car?

Mr. . SAWYER. Well, this I don't know either. I don't know what car it was made from, but I think it was Sheriff Decker talking. I could recognize his voice, yes.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do then?

Mr. SAWYER. Then I went on down to the Texas Book Depository.

Mr. BELIN. Where did you park your car?

Mr. SAWYER. In front of the Texas School Book Depository.

Mr. BELIN. In front of the main entrance there?

Mr. SAWYER. In front of the main entrance.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do then?

Mr. SAWYER. Immediately went into---well, talked to some of the officers around there who told me the story that they had thought some shots had come from one of the floors in the building, and I think the fifth floor was mentioned, but nobody seemed to know who the shots were directed at or what had actually happened, except there had been a shooting there at the time the President's motorcade had gone by.

And I went with a couple of officers and a man who I believed worked in the building. The elevator was just to the right of the main entrance, and we went to the top floor, which was pointed out to me by this other man as being the floor that we were talking about. We had talked about the fifth floor. And we went back to the storage area and looked around and didn't see anything.

Mr. BELIN. Now you took an elevator up, is that correct?

Mr. SAWYER. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. The route that you took to the elevator, you went to the front door?

Mr. SAWYER. Right.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. SAWYER. We got into the elevator. We run into this man.

Mr. BELIN. Well, when you say you got into the elevator, where was the elevator as you walked in the front door?

Mr. SAWYER. It was to the right.

Mr. BELIN. To the right?

Mr. SAWYER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Was it a freight elevator or a passenger elevator?

Mr. SAWYER. The best of my recollection, it was a passenger elevator.

Mr. BELIN. Did you push for the top button in that elevator?

Mr. SAWYER. Well, I don't know who pushed it, but we went up to the top floor.

Mr. BELIN. You went up to the top floor that the elevator would go to?

Mr. SAWYER. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. You got off, and were there officers there?

Mr. SAWYER. There was one or two other officers with me.

Mr. BELIN. Now when you got off, you say you went into the back there into a warehouse area?

Mr. SAWYER. Storage area; what appeared to be a storage area.

Mr. BELIN. Did you go into any place other than a warehouse or storage area?

Mr. SAWYER. No.

Mr. BELIN. Was there anything other than a warehouse or storage area there?

Mr. SAWYER. Well, to one side I could see an office over there with people in it. Some women that apparently were office workers.

Mr. BELIN. Now Inspector, what did you do then?

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Mr. SAWYER. Well, I didn't see anything that was out of the ordinary, so I immediately came back downstairs to check the security on the building.

Mr. BELIN. When you say check the security on the building, what do you mean by that?

Mr. SAWYER. Well, to be sure it was covered off properly, and then posted two men on the front entrance with instructions not to let anyone in or out.

Mr. BELIN. What about the rear entrance?

Mr. BELIN. When was the order given to cover the front entrance of the building?

Mr. SAWYER. Well, they had it covered when I got there. There were officers all around the front. The only thing I don't think had been done by the time I got there, was the instructions not to let anybody in or out.

Mr. BELIN. All right, now, did you give the instructions not to let anyone in or out?

Mr. SAWYER I did.

Mr. BELIN. Did you give those instructions before or after you came down from the fourth floor or top floor?

Mr. SAWYER. After I got down.

Mr. BELIN. So your procedure, if I understand it, was this. You were driving on Main Street when you heard Sheriff Decker on the radio?

Mr. SAWYER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Inspector, to try and reconstruct the time of sealing off the building, I believe you said that before you got to the building or at about the time you got to the building, you thought that you heard something about the Texas School Book Depository over the radio?

Mr. SAWYER. Right.

Mr. BELIN. At least some time before you left your car, is that correct?

Mr. SAWYER. Yes; it would have to be, in order to hear it.

Mr. BELIN. Now, I have with me the transcript of the radio log here of November 22, and I notice that, according to the log, at 12:30, and you have examined it, there appears there is a statement by Chief Curry, and then something by Sheriff Decker concerning, well, we'd better call this Sawyer's Deposition Exhibit A, which is a transcript of the radio log, and it reads right now--we will try and restaple it later on--but right now, Page 2 and 3 are reversed insofar as the order is concerned.

You see at 12:28 p.m., on this exhibit Curry calls in that they are near the triple underpass, and then at 12:30 p.m., it says, "Station Break," is that right?

Mr. SAWYER. Yes, sir.

Mr. SAWYER. Right.

Mr. BELIN. Then according to the transcript, the statement is made you might just read it here in front of you: "Go to the hospital, officers, Parkland Hospital, have them stand by. Get men on top of the underpass, see what happened up there, go up to the overpass. Have Parkland stand by." You see these words here, Inspector Sawyer?

Mr. SAWYER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Then on a continuation, "Dallas-l," which is marked in by someone as Sheriff Decker says: "I'm sure it's going to take some time to get your men in there. Put every one of my men there." Then there is a call back to Curry from 531, which is your home station, is that correct?

Mr. SAWYER. That's right. I really didn't quite understand all of it.

Mr. BELIN. Then Curry is quoted as saying: "Notify Station 5 to move all men available out of my department back into the railroad yard and try to determine what happened and hold everything secure until homicide and other investigators can get in there."

Mr. SAWYER. That is Decker speaking there.

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Mr. BELIN. That is Decker?

Mr. SAWYER That's right.

Mr. BELIN. You believe that is what Decker said?

Mr. SAWYER. That is what he said, yes, that's right.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. SAWYER. His number is Dallas-l, and they are talking to 1. They have that confused.

Mr. BELIN. Well, Curry is 1 also?

Mr. SAWYER That's right.

Mr. BELIN. But I think they were riding in the same car?

Mr. SAWYER. That might be correct, but this is actually Decker's voice here, and that is what he had to say.

Mr. BELIN. Well, then, the comment is made "Notify Station 5----"

Mr. SAWYER. That is the Sheriffs Office.

Mr. BELIN. "To move all men available out of my Department back into the railroad yard----"

And that you feel is Decker talking because of the reference to Station 5?

Mr. SAWYER Also, my memory serves that it was his voice that made that.

Mr. BELIN. All right, then, at 12:31, is a notation there that quotes, "It looks like the President has been hit."

This is the first reference in the log about the Texas School Book Depository, is that correct?

Mr. SAWYER That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. Do you feel that you heard in your car some reference to the Texas School Book Depository building?

Mr. SAWYER. I do.

Mr. BELIN. Would it be fair for me to assume then that you had not at least completely left your car by 12:34 p.m?

Mr. SAWYER. Correct.

Mr. BELIN. Then when you got to the Texas School Book Depository, well, you got out of the car and talked to some people or to some officers?

Mr. SAWYER. Officers.

Mr. BELIN. And then what did the officers tell you?

Mr. SAWYER. That their information was that the shots had come from the fifth floor of the Texas School Book Depository.

Mr. BELIN. Did any officers give you any other information about the source of the shots other than the fact that it came from the Texas School Book Depository, at that particular time?

Mr. SAWYER. I can't say whether it was officers or who, but there was a reference also made to the overpass.

Mr. BELIN. All right, in any event--pardon me, do you have anything else to add?

Mr. SAWYER. Also, there was a broadcast here in the transcript about the railroad yard.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. SAWYER. And this could be part of what I was thinking about, or what I had heard, was this broadcast on the radio about the railroad yard.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? You went inside the building, is that correct?

Mr. SAWYER. We immediately went inside the building. I took--I believe Sgt. Harkness may have gone with me. I am not positive of that.

Mr. BELIN. Was the elevator on the first floor when you got there, or did you have to wait for it to come down?

Mr. SAWYER. Best of my recollection, it was there.

Mr. BELIN. You got to the elevator, went up, looked around back there. How long did you spend up there at the top floor that the elevator took you to?

Mr. SAWYER Just took a quick look around and made sure there was nobody hiding on that floor. I doubt if it took over a minute at the most.

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Mr. BELIN. To go up and look around and come down?

Mr. SAWYER. To look around on the floor. How long it took to go up, it couldn't have been over 3 minutes at the most from the time we left, got up and back down.

Mr. BELIN. Then that would put it around no sooner than 12:37, if you heard the call at 12:34?

Mr. SAWYER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Then you got down and what did you do?

Mr. SAWYER. I asked the Sergeant to doublecheck the security around the building, and then I took two patrolmen and stationed them at the front door and told them, with instructions not to let anybody in or out.

Mr. BELIN. Now up to the time you did this, had anyone else sealed off the building, that you know of?

Mr. SAWYER. When I arrived, the sergeant told me he had the building sealed off. There were officers all around the building. To the best of my recollection, there was no officer actually stationed on the front door, at the front door. There was some on the sidewalk in front of the front door, and also, as far as I know, had no instructions been issued to anyone to let anybody in or out.

Mr. BELIN. So yours would have been the first instructions to stop traffic from coming in and out of the front door, am I correct in that?

Mr. SAWYER. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. All right, anybody that would have been seen leaving the building would have been stopped and interrogated by the officers that were there? Even before you instructed them?

Mr. SAWYER. Yes, because they were looking for something or anything, and I know that anybody coming out of the back doors, from what the Sergeant told me, they would have stopped them, too.

Mr. BELIN. What happened at the front door now. There were people standing. out on the area of the steps, were there not?

Mr. SAWYER. No. There were some people around, yes.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether or not any of those would have been stopped?

Mr. SAWYER. For sure, no; I don't.

Mr. BELIN. Now after you got down and you issued these orders, then what did you

Mr. SAWYER. I set up a command post in front. The various officers were bringing up different witnesses who had seen various things, and I saw that this was quite an involved situation. It was so many of these people that had information, that I knew I didn't have time to take this information down, and by this time several deputy sheriffs were standing there, and one of them, I think he was a supervisor, I had his name at one time, I can't think of it now, was there, and he offered the use of an interrogation room of Sheriff Decker's office, I think he said, for interrogating these people.

Mr. BELIN. That is located down the street a little bit there?

Mr. SAWYER. Well, it is catty-corner across the street.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. SAWYER. It is southeast across the street from the Texas School Book Depository, at least from the corner, and so we set up a group of officers and deputy sheriffs who were to take charge of the witnesses and take them over to see that affidavits were taken from them. They were more or less an escort service so the witness wouldn't get away.

And then as our detectives began to show up, I sent them over to the Sheriff's Office to assist in taking these depositions or affidavits.

Mr. BELIN. How many witnesses were there around there during this period of time that you talked to?

Mr. SAWYER. Well, during the entire period of time that I was there, I would venture to say between 25 to 50 different people had come up with information of one kind or another.

Mr. BELIN. Now, on this radio log, Sawyer's Deposition Exhibit A, do you

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notice your number there for any calls at all that might have come in? What number did you use?

Mr. BELIN. I notice here a No. 9, the first time that appears to come in here is at 12:40 p.m.; is that right?

Mr. SAWYER. That is the first one after 12:40, sir.

Mr. BELIN. The first one after 12:30?

Mr. SAWYER. The first one after 12:30, yes, that is true.

Mr. BELIN. Then at 12:40, there is a bunch of calls at 12:40, with the next call number at 12:43, so you assume sometime 12:40 and 12:43 you, as No. 9, called in, is that correct?

Mr. SAWYER. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. Would you read what it says that you said there?

Mr. SAWYER. "We need more manpower down here at the Texas Book Depository; there should be a bunch on Main if somebody can pick them up and bring them down here."

Mr. BELIN. Was that said before or after you came down from the elevator?

Mr. SAWYER. That was after.

Mr. BELIN. Was that before or after you told the men there to guard the front door and not let anyone in or out?

Mr. SAWYER. That was after.

Mr. BELIN. Now the next time that No. 9 appears is at what time?

Mr. SAWYER. Immediately after 12:43 and before 12:45.

Mr. BELIN. What did you say then?

Mr. SAWYER. "The wanted person in this is a slender white male about 30, 5 feet 10, 165, carrying what looks to be a 30-30 or some type of Winchester."

Mr. BELIN. Then the statement is made from the home office, "It was a rifle?"

Mr. SAWYER. I answered, "Yes, a rifle."

Mr. BELIN. Then the reply to you, "Any clothing description ?"

Mr. BELIN. Then the statement is made sometime before 12:45 p.m., and after the 12:43 p.m., call, "Attention all squads, description was broadcast and no further information at this time."

Does that mean the description you made was rebroadcast?

Mr. SAWYER. I rebroadcast that description. That is what that means.

Mr. BELIN. I then notice on this radio log---I don't see anything more under 9, at least until after the, well, it is down until we have gone as far as 1:30 p.m., I don't see anything else, do you, sir?

Mr. SAWYER. No. There is another broadcast in there somewhere, though. I put out another description on the colored boy that worked in that department.

Mr. BELIN. What do you mean the colored boy that worked in that depository?

Mr. SAWYER. He is one that had a previous record in the narcotics, and he was supposed to have been a witness to the man being on that floor. He was supposed to have been a witness to Oswald being there.

Mr. BELIN. Would Charles Givens have been that boy?

Mr. SAWYER. Yes, I think that is the name, and I put out a description on him.

Mr. BELIN. How do you know he was supposed to be a witness on that?

Mr. SAWYER. Somebody told me that. Somebody came to me with the information. And again, that particular party, whoever it was, I don't know. I remember that a deputy sheriff came up to me who had been over taking these affidavits, that I sent them over there, and he came over from the sheriff's office with a picture and a description of this colored boy and he said that he was supposed to have worked at the Texas Book Depository, and he was the one employee who was missing, or he was missing from the building.

He wasn't accounted for, and that he was suppose to have some information about the man that did the shooting.

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Mr. BELIN. When you say about the man who did the shooting, did you know at that time who did the shooting?

Mr. SAWYER. No.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know about what time in the afternoon this was?

Mr. SAWYER. Somewhere along in here; let's see if we can't find it.

Mr. BELIN. This doesn't go past 1:53 p.m.

Mr. SAWYER. What about your other transcript?

Mr. BELIN. I have a transcript of another one here, at least I did have.

Mr. SAWYER. I think we caught the man in the crowd later and sent him down. We sent him directly down to Captain Fritz's office.

Mr. BELIN. Well, just a minute now. I see here on No. 1, you have two channels there.

Mr. SAWYER. This is Channel 1, yes.

Mr. BELIN. We will call this Sawyer's Deposition Exhibit B.

I see here that you go on at 12:45 p.m., with this statement by your No. 9. You want to read it?

Mr. SAWYER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. "From this building it is unknown if he is still there or not. Unknown if he was there in the first place."

Mr. BELIN. Then it reads back here, "All the information we have received, indicates it did come from the fifth or fourth of that building." That is the central headquarters back to you, is that it?

Mr. SAWYER. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. That is at least after 12:45 p.m., and before 12:48 p.m.?

Mr. SAWYER. Right.

Mr. BELIN. Now looking down on this log until the next time your number appears, is 1:12 p.m. What does that say?

Mr. SAWYER. "We have found empty rifle hulls on the fifth floor and from all indications the man had been there for some time."

Mr. BELIN. Then is there anything else?

Mr. SAWYER. This was reported to me by somebody inside the building.

Mr. BELIN. That was at 1:12 p.m., that the hulls were found, or at least shortly prior to that? This doesn't say anything else. It apparently doesn't go in detail much past 1:58 p.m., on Sawyer Deposition. Exhibit B, and 1:53

p.m., on Sawyer's Deposition Exhibit A.

Mr. SAWYER. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. Do you still feel sometime after that you might have called out another description?

Mr. SAWYER. It was another, sometime after that, or it has been left out of I don't think it has been left out of this, but it must have been after

Mr. BELIN. All right, now, sir; you did broadcast that description out of this

Mr. SAWYER. Yes, that's correct. That shows on the radio log. Where did you get that description

Mr. SAWYER. We are talking now about the colored man?

Mr. BELIN. No, I am talking about the one that is on Sawyer's Deposition Exhibit A, that shows you at 12:43.

Mr. SAWYER. That description came to me mainly from one witness who claimed to have seen the rifle barrel in the fifth or sixth floor of the building, and claimed to have been able to see the man up there.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know this person's name?

Mr. SAWYER. I do not.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know anything about him, what he was wearing?

Mr. SAWYER. Except that he was--I don't remember what he was wearing. I remember that he was a white man and that he wasn't young and he wasn't old. He was there. That is the only two things that I can remember about him.

Mr. BELIN. What age would you categorize as young?

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Mr. SAWYER. Around 35 would be my best recollection of it, but it could be a few years either way.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember if he was tall or short, or can't you remember anything about him?

Mr. SAWYER. I can't remember that much about him. I was real hazy about that.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember where he said he was standing when he saw the person with the rifle?

Mr. SAWYER. I didn't go into detail with him except that from the best of my recollection, he was standing where he could have seen him. But there were too many people coming up with questions to go into detail. I got the description and sent him on over to the Sheriff's Office.

Mr. BELIN. Inspector, do you remember anything else about this person who you say gave you the primary description?

Mr. SAWYER. No, I do not, except that I did send him with an escort to the Sheriff's Office to give fuller or more complete detail.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know if he was taken there to see a lineup at the police station?

Mr. SAWYER. No.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever see him again?

Mr. SAWYER. Not to my knowledge.

Mr. BELIN. Now, you talked to other people there that said they had some information with regard to where the shots may have come from?

Mr. SAWYER. Yes, through a number of people.

Mr. BELIN. First I am going to ask you if you talked to any other people who said they saw a rifle or part of a rifle?

Mr. SAWYER. Yes. There were a few who claimed that they had seen this.

Mr. BELIN. Where did these people that claimed they saw a rifle or part of a rifle---

Mr. SAWYER. The ones that I talked to were pointing out one of the upper floors of the Texas School Book Depository, which at that time I thought was the fifth floor.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know what portion, what side of the building it was? Was it the northeast corner or west side of the building?

Mr. SAWYER. It was on the south side of the building, and in the southeast corner.

Mr. BELIN. What about this person, who I will call the primary description witness, did he say what side of the building it was on?

Mr. SAWYER. He went and pointed out the window which I now note to be the sixth floor, but when I talked to him, I thought it was the fifth floor.

Mr. BELIN. The fifth floor?

Mr. SAWYER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What side of the building?

Mr. SAWYER. On the south side of the building, and the southeast corner.

Mr. BELIN. Did you talk to any witness, or did any witness talk to you who claimed to see any rifle or portion of a rifle at any place other than a window of Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. SAWYER. No, did any---

Mr. BELIN. Did any officer give you any information about talking to anyone who saw a rifle or a portion of a rifle at any place other than a window in the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. SAWYER. No, not to my knowledge.

Mr. BELIN. Did you talk to people who attempted to locate the shots on the basis of what I would call their sense of hearing, rather than their sense of sight?

In other words, what they heard rather than what they saw?

Mr. SAWYER. Correct. That is correct. Some of them claimed that they had heard shots, or thought they heard shots from over the overpass.

Mr. BELIN. Did all the people you talked to say that they heard shots over the overpass? Claim they had some knowledge about where the shots came from?

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Did they all say they heard shots from the overpass, or did they say they heard some from other places?

Mr. SAWYER. No. Very few said they heard the shots come from the overpass, or thought they heard them from that area.

Mr. BELIN. Well, where did other people say they heard shots come from?

Mr. SAWYER. Most of the people that heard the shots pointed out the Texas Book Depository.

Mr. BELIN. Did some of the people that heard shots, or thought they heard shots from the Texas School Book Depository, all say they saw a rifle there?

Mr. SAWYER. No.

Mr. BELIN. Most of them say they saw a rifle there?

Mr. SAWYER. No, just a few, very few.

Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else you can think of that occurred at the Texas School Book Depository that afternoon while you were there that might have any relevancy about where the shots came from, other than what you have told thus far?

Mr. SAWYER. Well, I had heard some of the officers come to me and said there was supposed to be, somebody told them about a woman that had taken some pictures of that window, and then one of the sergeants came to me, and I am not sure who the sergeant is now, but anyway he said that there was on the building immediately west east, I am sorry cast of the Texas School Book Depository, that a man up in one of the upper windows up there was taking some moving pictures of what had gone on.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever contact this man? Do you know what his name is?

Mr. SAWYER. No; I don't know his name. The sergeant told me that the man would not give them the pictures, that he was waiting for the Secret Service or the FBI, I forget which now, and I sent the sergeant and two men back over there with instructions to bring that man and his pictures to me.

When they got back over there, Forrest Sorrels of the Secret Service was already there, and at least they so reported back to me, and was talking to this man.

So I told them to go ahead with their normal assignments and since Forrest was already there and talking to him, I knew that that part would be taken care of.

Mr. BELIN. You don't know what his name was or what the results of it was?

Mr. SAWYER. I don't know.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else?

Mr. SAWYER. Later that afternoon one of our colored officer detectives saw this colored man in this crowd across the street and we had previously broadcast a description on, and he took him into custody and sent him immediately down to Captain Fritz' office.

Mr. BELIN. He gave a statement, is that it?

Mr. SAWYER. This I don't know. I presume he did, but I didn't stop to talk to him or take any information. I just sent him on down there.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else you can think of at this time?

Mr. SAWYER. No.

Mr. BELIN. You spent most of the afternoon out in front of the building there?

Mr. SAWYER. I spent most of the afternoon up until 4 o'clock.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. SAWYER. I went back down to the City Hall and checked around there to see if anything further I could do, and then I went home.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do on Saturday, the 23d? Anything that has to do with the assassination or the investigation of the Tippit murder?

Mr. SAWYER. No. I happened to be off on Saturday, and I didn't go back down. The boss didn't call me, so I stayed home.

Mr. BELIN. What about Sunday?

Mr. SAWYER. Same thing. In fact, I didn't even hear about the other thing until way late in the afternoon.

Mr. BELIN. Is there any other information that you can think of, whether I have asked it or not, that might be in any way relevant here?

Mr. SAWYER. The only other thing I can remember that I did down there, was

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when the shooting on Officer Tippit came in, I released half a dozen men to go to Oak Cliff to help with that.

Mr. BELIN. Inspector, is there anything else that you can think of, whether I have asked it or not, that is in any way relevant here?

Mr. SAWYER. I can't think of anything.

Mr. BELIN. Sir, we certainly appreciate your cooperation in coming down here.

You have a right, if you would like, after this report is typewritten, to read it and sign it before it is sent to us, or you can waive the reading of it and have it sent to us directly.

It doesn't make a bit of difference to us.

Mr. SAWYER. Whichever you prefer It doesn't make any difference to me.

I would like to read it.

Mr. BELIN. Why don't we say you read it and sign it, and it will be sent to us.

Mr. SAWYER. Okay.

Gerald Dalton Henslee

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TESTIMONY OF GERALD DALTON HENSLEE