Dr. Perry

Volume I

Volume II

Volume III

TESTIMONY OF DR. MALCOLM PERRY

The CHAIRMAN. Dr. Perry, will you be sworn now, please? Would you raise your right hand and be sworn, please?

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give before the Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Dr. PERRY. I do.

The CHAIRMAN. Will you be seated, please?

Mr. Specter will conduct the examination.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you state your full name for the record, please?

Dr. PERRY. Malcolm Oliver Perry.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your residence address?

Dr. PERRY. 4115 Parkland, Dallas, Tex.

Mr. SPECTER. Your professional address?

Dr. PERRY. 5323 Harry Hines Boulevard.

Mr. SPECTER. Is that the address of Parkland Memorial Hospital?

Dr. PERRY. That is the address of the University of Texas Southwestern Medical School.

Mr. SPECTER. Is that situated immediately adjacent to Parkland Memorial Hospital?

Dr. PERRY. That is correct.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you state your age, sir?

Dr. PERRY. 34.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your profession?

Dr. PERRY. I am a physician and surgeon.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you duly licensed to practice medicine by the State of Texas?

Dr. PERRY. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you outline briefly your educational background, please?

Dr. PERRY. After graduation from Plano High School in 1947, I attended the University of Texas and was duly graduated there in January of 1951 with a degree of Bachelor of Arts.

I subsequently graduated from the University of Texas Southwestern Medical School in 1955 with a degree of Doctor of Medicine. I served an internship of 12 months at Letterman Hospital in San Francisco, and after 2 more years in the Air Force I returned to Parkland for a 4-year residency in general surgery.

I completed that in--

Mr. DULLES. Where did you serve in the Air Force, by the way?

Dr. PERRY. I was in Spokane, Wash., Geiger Field.

At the completion of my surgery residency in June of 1962, I was appointed an instructor in surgery at the Southwestern Medical School.

But in September 1962, I returned to the University of California at San Francisco to spend a year in vascular surgery. During that time, I took and passed my boards for the certification for the American Board of Surgery.

I returned to Parkland Hospital and Southwestern in September of 1963, was appointed an assistant professor of surgery, attending surgeon and vascular consultant for Parkland Hospital and John Smith Hospital in Fort Worth.

Mr. SPECTER. What experience have you had, Dr. Perry, if any, in gunshot wounds?

Dr. PERRY. During my period in medical school and my residency, I have seen a large number, from 150 to 200.

Mr. SPECTER. What were your duties at Parkland Memorial Hospital, if any, on November 22d, 1963?

Dr. PERRY. On that day I had come over from the medical school for the usual 1 o'clock rounds with the residents, and Dr. Ronald Jones and I, he being

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chief surgical resident; were having dinner in the main dining room there in the hospital.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe how you happened to be called in to render assistance to President Kennedy?

Dr. PERRY. Somewhere around 12:30, and I cannot give you the time accurately since I did not look at my watch in that particular instant, an emergency page was put in for Dr. Tom Shires, who is chief of the emergency surgical service in Parkland. I knew he was in Galveston attending a meeting and giving a paper, and I asked Dr. Jones to pick up the page to see if he or I could be of assistance.

The CHAIRMAN. Doctor, at this time I must leave for a session at the Supreme Court, and the hearing will continue. Congressman Ford, I am going to ask you if you will preside, in my absence. If you are obliged to go to the Congress, Commissioner Dulles will preside, and I will be available as soon as the Court session is over to be here with you.

(At this point, Mr. Warren withdrew from the hearing room.)

Representative FORD. Will you proceed, please?

Mr. SPECTER. What action did you take after learning of the emergency call, Dr. Perry?

Dr. PERRY. The emergency room is one flight of stairs down from the main dining cafeteria, so Dr. Jones and I went immediately to the emergency room to render what assistance we could.

Representative FORD. May I ask this: In the confirmation of the page call, was it told to you that the President was the patient involved?

Dr. PERRY. It was told to Dr. Jones, who picked up the page, that President Kennedy had been shot and was being brought to Parkland. We went down immediately to the emergency room to await his arrival. However, he was there when we reached--

Mr. SPECTER. Who else was present at the time you arrived on the scene with the President?

Dr. PERRY. When Dr. Jones and I entered the emergency room, the place was filled with people, most of them officers and, apparently, attendants to the Presidential procession. Dr. Carrico was in attendance with the President in trauma room No. 1 when I walked in. There were several other people there. Mrs. Kennedy was there with some gentleman whom I didn't know. I have the impression there was another physician in the room, but I cannot recall at this time who it was. There were several nurses there.

Mr. SPECTER. Were any other doctors present besides Dr. Carrico?

Dr. PERRY. I think there was another doctor present, but I don't know who it was, I don't recall.

Mr. DULLES. Can I ask a question here, Mr. Specter?

Mr. SPECTER. Certainly.

Dr. PERRY. No, sir.

Mr. DULLES. But it would be very helpful to me--

Dr. PERRY. No, sir; it is perfectly proper.

Mr. DULLES. In reviewing the situation to see how you acted.

In a military situation, you have somebody who takes command.

Dr. PERRY. We do, too. And it essentially is based on the same kind of thing.

Mr. SPECTER. It is fine.

Dr. PERRY. It is based on rank and experience, essentially. For example, Dr. Carrico being the senior surgical resident in the area, at the time President Kennedy was brought in to the emergency suite, would have done what we felt was necessary and would have assumed control of the situation being as there were interns and probably medical students around the area, but being senior would take it. This, of course, catapulted me into this because I was the senior attending staff man when I arrived and at that time Dr. Carrico has noted I took over direction of the care since I was senior of all the people

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there and being as we are surgeons, the department of surgery operates that portion of the emergency room and directs the care of the patients.

Mr. DULLES. Did you try to clear the room of unnecessary people?

Dr. PERRY. This was done, not by me, but by the nurse supervisor, I assume, but several of the people were asked to leave the room. Generally, this is not necessary. In an instance such as this, it is a little more difficult, as you can understand.

Mr. DULLES. Yes.

Dr. PERRY. But this care of an acutely injured and acutely injured patients goes on quite rapidly. Over 90,000 a year go through that emergency room, and, as a result, people are well trained in the performance of their duties. There is generally no problem in asking anyone lo leave the room because everyone is quite busy and they know what they have to do and are proceeding to do it.

Mr. DULLES. Thank you very much.

Mr. SPECTER. Upon your arrival in the room, where President Kennedy was situated, what did you observe as to his condition?

Dr. PERRY. At the time I entered the door, Dr. Carrico was attending him. He was attaching the Bennett apparatus to an endotracheal tube in place to assist his respiration.

The President was lying supine on the carriage, underneath the overhead lamp. His shirt, coat, had been removed. There was a sheet over his lower extremities and the lower portion of his trunk. He was unresponsive. There was no evidence of voluntary motion. His eyes were open, deviated up and outward, and the pupils were dilated and fixed.

I did not detect a heart beat and was told there was no blood pressure obtainable.

He was, however, having ineffective spasmodic respiratory efforts.

There was blood on the carriage.

Mr. DULLES. What does that mean to the amateur, to the unprofessional?

Dr. PERRY. Short, rather jerky contractions of his chest and diaphragm, pulling for air.

Mr. DULLES. I see.

Mr. SPECTER. Were those respiratory efforts on his part alone or was he being aided in his breathing at that tame?

Dr. PERRY. He had just attached the machine and at this point it was not turned on. He was attempting to breathe.

Mr. SPECTER. So that those efforts were being made at that juncture at least without mechanical aid?

Dr. PERRY. Those were spontaneous efforts on the part of the President.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you continue, then, Dr. Perry, as to what you observed of his condition?

Dr. PERRY. Yes, there was blood noted on the carriage and a large avulsive wound on the right posterior cranium.

I cannot state the size, I did not examine it at all. I just noted the presence of lacerated brain tissue. In the lower part of the neck below the Adams apple was a small, roughly circular wound of perhaps 5 mm. in diameter from which blood was exuding slowly.

I did not see any other wounds.

I examined the chest briefly, and from the anterior portion did not see any thing.

I pushed up the brace on the left side very briefly to feel for his femoral pulse, but did not obtain any.

I did no further examination because it was obvious that if any treatment were to be carried out with any success a secure effective airway must be obtained immediately.

I asked Dr. Carrico if the wound on the neck was actually a wound or had he begun a tracheotomy and he replied in the negative, that it was a wound, and at that point--

Mr. DULLES. I am a little confused, I thought Dr. Carrico was absent. That was an earlier period.

Dr. PERRY. No, sir; he was present.

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Mr. DULLES. He was present?

Dr. PERRY. Yes; he was present when I walked in the room and, at that point, I asked someone to secure a tracheotomy tray but there was one already there. Apparently Dr. Carrico had already asked them to set up the tray.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Perry, backtracking just a bit from the context of the answer which you have just given, would you describe the quantity of blood which you observed on the carriage when you first came into the room where the President was located?

Dr. PERRY. Mr. Specter, this is an extremely difficult thing. The estimation of blood when it is either on the floor or on drapes or bandages is grossly inaccurate in almost every instance.

As you know, many hospitals have studied this extensively to try to determine whether they were able to do it with any accuracy but they cannot. I can just tell you there was considerable blood present on the carriage and some on his head and some on the floor but how much, I would hesitate to estimate. Several hundred CC's would be the closest I could get but it could be from 200 to 1,500 and I know by experience you cannot estimate it more accurately.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you characterize it as a very substantial or minor blood loss?

Dr. PERRY. A substantial blood loss.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, you mentioned the President's brace. Could you describe that as specifically as possible?

Dr. PERRY. No, sir; I did not examine it. I noted its presence only in an effort to reach the femoral pulse and I pushed it up just slightly so that I might palpate for the femoral pulse, I did no more examination.

Mr. SPECTER. In the course of seeking the femoral pulse, did you observe or note an Ace bandage?

Dr. PERRY. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. In the brace area?

Dr. PERRY. Yes, sir. It was my impression, I saw a portion of an Ace Bandage, an elastic supporting bandage on the right thigh. I did not examine it at all but I just noted its presence.

Mr. SPECTER. Did the Ace Bandage cover any portion of the President's body that you were able to observe in addition to the right thigh?

Dr. PERRY. No, sir; I did not go any further. I just noted its presence right there at the junction at the hip. It could have been on the lower trunk or the upper thigh, I don't know. I didn't care any further.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you continue to describe the resuscitative efforts that were undertaken at that time?

Dr. PERRY. At the beginning I had removed my coat and watch as I entered the room and dropped it off in the corner, and as I was talking to Dr. Carrico in regard to the neck wound, I glanced cursorily at the head wound and noted its severe character, and then proceeded with the tracheotomy after donning a pair of gloves. I asked that someone call Dr. Kemp Clark, of neurosurgery, Dr. Robert McClelland, Dr. Charles Baxter, assistant professors of surgery, to come and assist. There were several other people in the room by this time, none of which I can identify. I then began the tracheotomy making a transverse incision right through the wound in the neck.

Mr. SPECTER. Why did you elect to make the tracheotomy incision through the wound in the neck, Dr. Perry?

Dr. PERRY. The area of the wound, as pointed out to you in the lower third of the neck anteriorly is customarily the spot one would electively perform the tracheotomy.

This is one of the safest and easiest spots to reach the trachea. In addition the presence of the wound indicated to me there was possibly an underlaying wound to the neck muscles in the neck, the carotid artery or the jugular vein. If you are going to control these it is necessary that the incision be as low, that is toward the heart or lungs as the wound if you are going to obtain adequate control.

Therefore, for expediency's sake I went directly to that level to obtain control of the airway.

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Mr. SPECTER. Would you describe, in a general way and in lay terms, the purpose for the tracheotomy at that time?

Dr. PERRY. Dr. Carrico had very judicially placed an endotracheal but unfortunately due to the injury to the trachea, the cuff which is an inflatable balloon on the endotracheal tube was not below the tracheal injury and thus he could not secure the adequate airway that you would require to maintain respiration.

(At this point, Mr. McCloy entered the hearing room.)

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Perry, you mentioned an injury to the trachea.

Will you describe that as precisely as you can, please?

Dr. PERRY. Yes. Once the transverse incision through the skin and subcutaneous tissues was made, it was necessary to separate the strap muscles covering the anterior muscles of the windpipe and thyroid. At that point the trachea was noted to be deviated slightly to the left and I found it necessary to sever the exterior strap muscles on the other side to reach the trachea.

I noticed a small ragged laceration of the trachea on the anterior lateral right side. I could see the endotracheal tube which had been placed by Dr. Carrico in the wound, but there was evidence of air and blood around the tube because I noted the cuff was just above the injury to the trachea.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you now proceed to describe what efforts you made to save the President's life?

Dr. PERRY. At this point, I had entered the neck, and Dr. Baxter and Dr. McClelland arrived shortly thereafter. I cannot describe with accuracy their exact arrival. I only know I looked up and saw Dr. Baxter as I began the tracheotomy and he took a pair of gloves to assist me.

Dr. McClelland's presence was known to me at the time he picked up an instrument and said, "Here, I will hand it to you."

At that point I was down in the trachea. Once the trachea had been exposed I took the knife and incised the windpipe at the point of the bullet injury. And asked that the endotracheal tube previously placed by Dr. Carrico be withdrawn slightly so I could insert a tracheotomy tube at this level. This was effected and attached to an anesthesia machine which had been brought down by Dr. Jenkins and Dr. Giesecke for better control of circulation.

I noticed there was free air and blood in the right mediastinum and although I could not see any evidence, myself any evidence, of it in the pleura of the lung the presence of this blood in this area could be indicative of the underlying condition.

I asked someone to put in a chest tube to allow sealed drainage of any blood or air which might be accumulated in the right hemothorax.

This occurred while I was doing the tracheotomy. I did not know at the time when I inserted the tube but I was informed subsequently that Dr. Paul Peters, assistant professor of urology, and Dr. Charles Baxter, previously noted in this record, inserted the chest tube and attached it to underwater seal or drainage of the right pneumothorax.

Mr. DULLES. How long did this tracheotomy take, approximately?

Dr. PERRY. I don't know that for sure, Mr. Dulles. However, I have--a matter of 3 to 5 minutes, perhaps even less. This was very--I didn't look at the watch, I have done them at those speeds and faster when I have had to. So I would estimate that. At this point also Dr. Carrico, having previously attached and assisting with the attaching of the anesthesia machine was doing another cut down on the right leg; Dr. Ronald Jones was doing an additional cut down, venous section on the left arm for the insertion of plastic cannula into veins so one may rapidly and effectively infuse blood and fluids. These were being done.

It is to Dr. Carrico's credit, I think he ordered the hydrocortisone for the President having known he suffered from adrenal insufficiency and in this particular instance being quite busy he had the presence of mind to recall this and order what could have been a lifesaving measure, I think.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you identify who Dr. Baxter is?

Dr. PERRY. Yes. Dr. Charles Baxter is, when I noted when I asked for the call, is an assistant professor of surgery also and Dr. McClelland.

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Mr. SPECTER. And is Dr. McClelland occupying a similar position at Parkland Memorial Hospital. as Dr. Baxter?

Mr. SPECTER. Would you identify Dr. Jenkins?

Dr. PERRY. Dr. M. T. Jenkins is professor and chairman of the department of anesthesiology and chief of the anesthesia service, and Dr. Giesecke is assistant professor of anesthesiology at Parkland.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you now identified all of the medical personnel whom you can recollect who were present at the time the aid was being rendered to the President?

Dr. PERRY. No, sir; several other people entered the room. I recall seeing Dr. Bashour who is an associate professor of medicine and chief of the cardiology section at Parkland.

Dr. Don W. Seldin, who is professor and chairman of the department of medicine, and I previously mentioned Dr. Paul Peters, assistant professor of urology, and I believe that Dr. Jackie Hunt of the department of anesthesiology was also there, and there were other people, I cannot identify them, several nurses and several others.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. William Kemp Clark arrived at about that time?

Dr. PERRY. Dr. Clark's arrival was first noted to me after the completion of the tracheotomy, and at this point, the cardiotachyscope had been attached to Mr. Kennedy to detect any electrical activity and although I did not note any, being occupied, it was related to me there was initially evidence of a spontaneous electrical activity in the President's heart.

However, at the completion of the tracheotomy and the institution of the sealed tube drainage of the chest, Dr. Clark and I began external cardiac massage. This was monitored by Dr. Jenkins and Dr. Giesecke who informed us we were obtaining a satisfactory carotid pulse in the neck, and someone whose name I do not know at this time, said they could also feel a femoral pulse in the leg. We continued external cardiac massage, I continued it as Dr. Clark examined the head wound and observed the cardiotachyscope. The exact time interval that this took I cannot tell you. I continued it until Dr. Jenkins and Dr. Clark informed me there was no activity at all, in the cardiotachyscope and that there had been no neurological or muscular response to our resuscitative effort at all and that the wound which the President sustained of his head was a mortal wound, and at that point we determined that he had expired and we abandoned efforts of resuscitation.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you identify Dr. Clark's specialty for the record, please?

Dr. PERRY. Dr. Clark is professor and chairman of the department of neurosurgery at the University of Texas Southwestern Medical School, and chief of the neurosurgical services at Parkland Hospital.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, you described a condition in the right mediastinum. Would you elaborate on what your views were of the condition at the time you were rendering this treatment?

Dr. PERRY. The condition of this area?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes, sir.

Dr. PERRY. There was both blood, free blood and air in the right superior mediastinum. That is the space that is located between the lungs and the heart at that level.

As I noted, I did not see any underlying injury of the pleura, the coverings of the lungs or of the lungs themselves. But in the presence of this large amount of blood in this area, one would be unable to detect small injuries to the underlying structures. The air was indicated by the fact that there was some frothing of this blood present, bubbling which could have been due to the tracheal injury or an underlying injury to the lung.

Since the morbidity attendant upon insertion of an anterior chest tube for sealed drainage is negligible and the morbidity which attends a pneumothorax is considerable, I elected to have the chest tube put in place because we were giving him positive pressure oxygen and the possibility of inducing a tension on pneumothorax would be quite high in such instances.

Mr. SPECTER. What is pneumothorax?

Dr. PERRY. Hemothorax would be blood in the free chest cavity and pneumothorax

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would be air in the free chest cavity underlying collapse of the lungs.

Mr. SPECTER. Would that have been caused by the injury which you noted to the President's trachea?

Dr. PERRY. There was no evidence of a hemothorax or a pneumothorax my examination; only it is sufficient this could have been observed because of the free blood in the mediastinum.

Mr. SPECTER. Were the symptoms which excited your suspicion causable by the injury to the trachea?

Dr. PERRY. They were.

Mr. SPECTER. At what time was the pronouncement of death made?

Dr. PERRY. Approximately 1 o'clock.

Mr. SPECTER. By whom was death announced?

Dr. PERRY. Dr. Kemp Clark.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there any special reason why it was Dr. Kemp Clark who pronounced the President had died?

Dr. PERRY. It was the opinion of those of us who had attended the President that the ultimate cause of his demise was a severe injury to his brain with subsequent loss of neurologic function and subsequent massive loss of blood, and thus Dr. Clark, being a neurosurgeon, signed the death certificate.

Dr. PERRY. Barring the advent of complications this wound was tolerable, and I think he would have survived it.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you now described all of the treatment which was rendered to the President by the medical team in attendance at Parkland Memorial Hospital.

Dr. PERRY. In essence I have, Mr. Specter. I do not know the exact quantities of balance salt solutions or blood that was given. I mentioned the 300 mg. of hydrocortisone Dr. Carrico ordered and, of course, he was given oxygen under pressure which has been previously recorded. The quantities of substances or any other drugs I have no knowledge of.

Mr. SPECTER. In general you have recounted the treatment?

Dr. PERRY. That is correct.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you now stated for the record all of the individuals who were in attendance in treating the President that you can recollect at this time?

Dr. PERRY. Yes, sir; I have.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you now describe as specifically as you can, the injury which you noted in the President's head?

Dr. PERRY. I did not.

Dr. PERRY. There was.

Mr. SPECTER. Which might have obscured such a wound?

Dr. PERRY. There was a considerable amount of blood at the head of the cartilage.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you now describe as particularly as possible the neck wound you observed?

Dr. PERRY. This was situated in the lower anterior one-third of the neck, approximately 5 mm. in diameter.

It was exuding blood slowly which partially obscured it. Its edges were neither ragged nor were they punched out, but rather clean.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you now described the neck wound as specifically as you can?

Dr. PERRY. I have.

Mr. SPECTER. Based on your observations of the neck wound alone, do you

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have a sufficient basis to form an opinion as to whether it was an entrance wound or an exit wound.

Dr. PERRY. No, sir. I was unable to determine that since I did not ascertain the exact trajectory of the missile. The operative procedure which I performed was restricted to securing an adequate airway and insuring there was no injury to the carotid artery or jugular vein at that level and at that point I made the procedure.

Dr. PERRY. It could have been either.

Assume first of all that the President was struck by a 6.5 mm. copper-jacketed bullet fired from a gun having a muzzle velocity of approximately 2,000 feet per second, with the weapon being approximately 160 to 250 feet from the President, with the bullet striking him at an angle of declination of approximately 45 degrees, striking the President on the upper right posterior thorax just above the upper border of the scapula, being 14 cm. from the tip of the right acromion process and 14 cm. below the tip of the right mastoid process, passing through the President's body striking no bones, traversing the neck and sliding between the large muscles in the posterior portion of the President's body through a fascia channel without violating the pleural cavity but bruising the apex of the right pleural cavity, and bruising the most apical portion of the right lung inflicting a hematoma to the right side of the larynx, which you have just described, and striking the trachea causing the injury which you described, and then exiting from the hole that you have described in the midline of the neck.

Now, assuming those facts to be true, would the hole which you observed in the neck of the President be consistent with an exit wound under those circumstances?

Mr. SPECTER. Now, assuming one additional fact that there was no bullet found in the body of the President, and assuming the facts which I have just set forth to be true, do you have an opinion as to whether the wound which you observed in the President's neck was an entrance or an exit wound?

Dr. PERRY. A full jacketed bullet without deformation passing through skin would leave a similar wound for an exit and entrance wound and with the facts which you have made available and with these assumptions, I believe that it was an exit wound.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have sufficient facts available to you to render an opinion as to the cause of the injury which you observed in the President's head?

Dr. PERRY. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you had an opportunity to examine the autopsy report?

Dr. PERRY. I have.

Mr. SPECTER. And are the facts set forth in the autopsy report consistent with your observations and views or are they inconsistent in any way with your findings and opinions?

Dr. PERRY. They are quite consistent and I noted initially that they explained very nicely the circumstances as we observed them at the time.

Mr. SPECTER. Could you elaborate on that last answer, Dr. Perry?

Dr. PERRY. Yes There was some considerable speculation, as you will recall, as to whether there were one or two bullets and as to from whence they came. Dr. Clark and I were queried extensively in respect to this and in addition Dr. Carrico could not determine whether there were one or two bullets from our initial examination.

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Mr. SPECTER. But based on the additional factors provided in the autopsy report, do you have an opinion at this time as to the number of bullets there were?

Dr. PERRY. The wounds as described from the autopsy report and coupled with the wounds I have observed it would appear there were two missiles that struck the President.

Dr. PERRY. That I could not say. I can only determine their pathway, on the basis of these reports within the President's body.

As to their ultimate source not knowing any of the circumstances surrounding it, I would not have any speculation.

Mr. SPECTER. From what direction would the bullets have come based on all of those factors?

Dr. PERRY. The bullets would have come from behind the President based on these factors.

Mr. SPECTER. And from the level, from below or above the President?

Dr. PERRY. Not having examined any of the. wounds with the exception of the anterior neck wounds, I could not say. This wound, as I noted was about 5 mm., and roughly circular in shape. There is no way for me to determine.

Mr. SPECTER. Based upon a point of entrance in the body of the President which I described to you as being 14 cm. from the right acromion process and 14 cm. below the tip of the right mastoid process and coupling that with your observation of the neck wound, would that provide a sufficient basis for you to form an opinion as to the path of the bullet, as to whether it was level, up or down?

Dr. PERRY. Yes, it would.

In view of the fact there was an injury to the right lateral portion of the trachea and a wound in the neck if one were to extend a line roughly between these two, it would be going slightly superiorly, that is cephalad toward the head, from anterior to posterior, which would indicate that the missile entered from slightly above and behind.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Perry, have you been a part of or participated in any press conferences?

Dr. PERRY. Yes, sir; I have

Mr. SPECTER. And by whom, if. anyone, were the press conferences arranged?

Dr. PERRY. The initial press conference, to the best of my knowledge, was arranged by Mr. Hawkes who was identified to me as being of the White House Press, and Mr. Steve Landregan of the hospital administration there at Parkland, and Dr. Kemp Clark.

They called me, I was in the operating suite at the time to assist with the care of the Governor, and they called and asked me if it would be possible for me to come down to a press conference.

Mr. SPECTER. At about what time did that call come to you, doctor?

Dr. PERRY. I am not real sure about that but probably around 2 o'clock.

Mr. SPECTER. What action, if any, did you take in response to that call?

Dr. PERRY. I put in a page for Dr. Baxter and Dr. McClelland since they were also involved, and went down to the emergency room where I met Mr. Hawkes and Dr. Clark. And from there we went up to classrooms one and two which had been combined into a large press room, and was packed with gentlemen and ladies of the press.

Mr. SPECTER. In what building was that located?

Dr. PERRY. This was in Parkland Hospital, in the classroom section.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you able to identify which news media were present at that time?

Dr. PERRY. No, sir; there were numerous people in the room. I would estimate maybe a hundred.

Mr. SPECTER. What doctors spoke at that press conference?

Dr. PERRY. Dr. Clark and I answered the questions.

Mr. SPECTER. Who spoke first as between you and Dr. Clark?

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Dr. PERRY. I did.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you state as specifically as you can the questions which were asked of you at that time and the answers which you gave?

Dr. PERRY. Mr. Specter, I would preface this by saying that, as you know, I have been interviewed on numerous occasions subsequent to that time, and I cannot recall with accuracy the questions that were asked. They, in general, were similar to the questions that were asked here. The press were given essentially the same, but in no detail such as have been given here. I was asked, for example, what I felt caused the President's death, the nature of the wound, from whence they came, what measures were taken for resuscitation, who were the people in attendance, at what time was it determined that he was beyond our help.

Mr. SPECTER. What responses did you give to questions relating to the source of the bullets, if such questions were asked?

Dr. PERRY. I could not. I pointed out that both Dr. Clark and I had no way of knowing from whence the bullets came.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you asked how many bullets there were?

Dr. PERRY. We were, and our reply was it was impossible with the knowledge we had at hand to ascertain if there were 1 or 2 bullets, or more. We were given, similarly to the discussion here today, hypothetical situations. "Is it possible that such would have been the case, or such and such?" If it was possible that there was one bullet. To this, I replied in the affirmative, it was possible and conceivable that it was only one bullet, but I did not know.

Mr. SPECTER. What would the trajectory, or conceivable course of one bullet have been, Dr. Perry, to account for the injuries which you observed in the President, as you stated it?

Dr. PERRY. Since I observed only two wounds in my cursory examination, it would have necessitated the missile striking probably a bony structure and being deviated in its course in order to account for these two wounds.

Mr. SPECTER. What bony structure was it conceivably?

Dr. PERRY. It required striking the spine.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you express a professional opinion that that did, in fact, happen or it was a matter of speculation that it could have happened?

Dr. PERRY. I expressed it as a matter of speculation that this was conceivable. But, again, Dr. Clark and I emphasize that we had no way of knowing.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you now recounted as specifically as you can recollect what occurred at that first press conference or is it practical for you to give any further detail to the contents of that press conference?

Dr. PERRY. I do not recall any specific details any further than that--

Representative FORD. Mr. Specter was there ever a recording kept of the questions and answers at that interview, Dr. Perry?

Dr. PERRY. This was one of the things I was mad about, Mr. Ford. There were microphones, and cameras, and the whole bit, as you know, and during the course of it a lot of these hypothetical situations and questions that were asked to us would often be asked by someone on this side and recorded by some one on this, and I don't know who was recorded and whether they were broadcasting it directly. There were tape recorders there and there were television cameras with their microphones. I know there were recordings made but who made them I don't know and, of course, portions of it would be given to this group and questions answered here and, as a result, considerable questions were not answered in their entirety and even some of them that were asked, I am sure were misunderstood. It was bedlam.

Representative FORD. I was thinking, was there an official recording either made by the hospital officials or by the White House people or by any government agency?

Dr. PERRY. Not to my knowledge.

Representative FORD. A true recording of everything that was said, the questions asked, and the answers given?

Dr. PERRY. Not to my knowledge.

Mr. DULLES. Was there any reasonably good account in any of the press of this interview?

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Dr. PERRY. No, sir.

Representative FORD. May I ask--

Dr. PERRY. I have failed to see one that was asked.

Representative FORD. In other words, you subsequently read or heard what was allegedly said by you and by Dr. Clark and Dr. Carrico. Were those reportings by the news media accurate or inaccurate as to what you and others said?

Dr. PERRY. In general, they were inaccurate. There were some that were fairly close, but I, as you will probably surmise, was pretty full after both Friday and Sunday, and after the interviews again, following the operation of which I was a member on Sunday, I left town, and I did not read a lot of them, but of those which I saw I found none that portrayed it exactly as it happened. Nor did I find any that reported our statements exactly as they were given.

They were frequently taken out of context. They were frequently mixed up as to who said what or identification as to which person was who.

Representative FORD. This interview took place on Sunday, the 24th, did you say?

Dr. PERRY. No, there were several interviews, Mr. Ford. We had one in the afternoon, Friday afternoon, and then I spent almost the entire day Saturday in the administrative suite at the hospital answering questions to people of the press, and some medical people of the American Medical Association. And then, of course, Sunday, following the operation on Oswald, I again attended the press conference since I was the first in attendance with him. And, subsequently, there was another conference on Monday conducted by the American Medical Association, and a couple of more interviews with some people whom I don't even recall.

Representative FORD. Would you say that these errors that were reported were because of a lack of technical knowledge as to what you as a physician were saying, or others were saying?

Dr. PERRY. Certainly that could be it in part, but it was not all. Certainly a part of it was lack of attention. A question would be asked and you would incompletely answer it and another question would be asked and they had gotten what they wanted without really understanding, and they would go on and it would go out of context. For example, on the speculation on the ultimate source of bullets, I obviously knew less about it than most people because I was in the hospital at the time and didn't know the circumstances surrounding it until it was over. I was much too busy and yet I was quoted as saying that the bullet, there was probably one bullet, which struck and deviated upward which came from the front, and what I had replied was to a question, was it conceivable that this could have happened, and I said yes, it is conceivable.

I have subsequently learned that to use a straight affirmative word like "yes" is not good relations; that one should say it is conceivable and not give a straight yes or no answer.

"It is conceivable" was dropped and the "yes" was used, and this was happening over and over again. Of course, Shires, for example, who was the professor and chairman of the department was identified in one press release as chief resident.

Mr. DULLES. As what? I didn't get it.

Dr. PERRY. As chief resident. And myself, as his being my superior, whereas Dr. Ronald Jones was chief resident of course, nothing could be further from the truth in identifying Dr. Shires as chief resident. I was identified as a resident surgeon in the Dallas paper. And I am not impressed with the accuracy of the press reports.

Mr. McCLOY. I don't know whether you have covered this very well. Let me ask you about the wound, the wound that you examined in the President's neck.

You said that it would have been tolerable. Would his speech have been impaired?

Dr. PERRY. No, sir; I don't think so. The injury was below the larynx, and certainly barring the advent of any complication would have healed without any difficulty.

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Mr. McCLOY. He would have had a relatively normal life?

Dr. PERRY. Yes, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. Did you, any other time, or other than the press conference or any other period, say that you thought this was an exit wound?

Dr. PERRY. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. McCLOY. When the President was brought, when you first saw the President, was he fully clothed, or did you cut the clothing away?

Dr. PERRY. Not at the time I saw him. Dr. Carrico and the nurses were all in attendance, they had removed his coat and his shirt, which is standard procedure, while we were proceeding about the examination, for them to do so.

Mr. McCLOY. But you didn't actually remove his shirt?

Dr. PERRY. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. McCLOY. Did you get the doctor's experience with regard to gunshot wounds?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. McCLOY. You said something to the effect that, of knowing the President had an adrenalin insufficiency, is that something you could observe?

Dr. PERRY. This is common medical knowledge, sir, that he had had in the past necessarily taken adrenalin steroids to support this insufficiency. Dr. Carrico, at this moment of great stress, recalled this, and requested this be given to him at that time, this is extremely important because people who have adrenalin insufficiency are unable to mobilize this hormone at the time of any great stress and it may be fatal without support from exogeneous drugs.

Mr. McCLOY. In other words, you had a general medical history of the President before he was-- common knowledge.

Dr. PERRY. No more so than anyone else, sir, except this would have stuck with us, sir, since they were already in that line.

Mr. McCLOY. Did you discuss with any of the other doctors present, and you named quite a number of them, as to whether this was an exit wound or an entrance wound?

Dr. PERRY. Yes, sir; we did at the time. But our discussion was necessarily limited by the fact that none of us knew, someone asked me now--you must remember that actually the only people who saw this wound for sure were Dr. Carrico and myself, and some of the other doctors were quoted as saying something about the wound which actually they never said at all because they never saw it, because on their arrival I had already made the incision through the wound, and despite what the press releases may have said neither Dr. Carrico nor myself could say whether it was an entrance or an exit wound from the nature of the wound itself and Dr. McClelland was quoted, for example, as saying he thought it was an exit wound, but that was not what he said at all because he didn't even see it.

Mr. McCLOY. And it is a fact, is it not, that you did not see what we now are supposed to believe was the entrance wound?

Dr. PERRY. No, sir; we did not examine him. At that time, we attended to the matters of expediency that were life-saving and the securing of an adequate airway and the stanching of massive hemorrhage are really the two medical emergencies; most everything else can wait, but those must be attended to in a matter of minutes and consequently to termination of treatment I had no morbid curiosity, my work was done, and actually I was rather anxious to leave.

Mr. McCLOY. That is all.

Mr. SPECTER. Yes.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. DULLES. I suggest, Mr. Specter, if you feel it is feasible, you send to the doctor the accounts of his press conference or conferences.

And possibly, if you are willing, sir, you could send us a letter, send to the Commission a letter, pointing out the various points in these press conferences where you are inaccurately quoted, so we can have that as a matter of record.

Is that feasible?

Dr. PERRY. That is, sir.

Would you prefer that each clipping be edited individually or a general statement?

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Mr. DULLES. Well, I think it would be better to have each clipping dealt with separately. Obviously, if you have answered one point in one clipping it won't be necessary to answer that point if it is repeated in another clipping.

Dr. PERRY. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Just deal with the new points.

Dr. PERRY. I can and will do this.

Representative FORD. This would be where Dr. Perry is quoted himself, or Dr. Carrico, or anyone else, they would only pass judgment on the quotes concerning themselves.

Mr. DULLES. That would be correct.

Dr. PERRY. Yes, because some of the other circumstances in some of the press releases which have come to my attention have not been entirely accurate either, regarding sequence of events, and although I would not have knowledge about those you would not want those added necessarily, just any statement alluded to have been made by me.

Mr. DULLES. I think that would be better. Don't you think so, Mr. Chairman?

Representative FORD. I think it would be the proper procedure.

Is this a monumental job, Mr. Specter?

Mr. SPECTER. No, I think it is one which can be managed, Congressman Ford. I might say we have done that with some of the clippings.

There was an article, as the deposition records will show when you have an opportunity to review them, they have not been transcribed, as to an article which appeared in La Expres, statements were attributed to Dr. McClelland--

Mr. DULLES. Which paper?

Mr. SPECTER. A French paper, La Expres. And I questioned the doctors quoted therein and developed for the record what was true and what was false on the statements attributed to them, so we have undertaken that in some circles but not as extensively as you suggest as to Dr. Perry, because we have been trying diligently to get the tape records of the television interviews, and we were unsuccessful. I discussed this with Dr. Perry in Dallas last Wednesday, and he expressed an interest in seeing them, and I told him we would make them available to him prior to his appearance, before deposition or before the Commission, except our efforts at CBS and NBC, ABC and everywhere including New York, Dallas and other cities were to no avail.

The problem is they have not yet cataloged all of the footage which they have, and I have been advised by the Secret Service, by Agent John Howlett, that they have an excess of 200 hours of transcripts among all of the events and they just have not cataloged them and could not make them available.

Mr. DULLES. Do you intend to catalog them?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes, they do, Mr. Dulles. They intend to do that eventually in their normal process, and the Secret Service is trying to expedite the news media to give us those, and it was our thought as to the film clips, which would be the most direct or the recordings which would be the most direct, to make comparisons between the reports in the news media and what Dr. said at that time, and the facts which we have from the doctors through our depositions and transcript today.

Representative FORD. Can you give us any time estimate when this catalog and comparison might be made?

Mr. SPECTER. Only that they are working on it right now, have been for sometime, but it may be a matter of a couple of weeks until they can turn it over.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. McCLOY. Mr. Chairman, I have some doubt as to the present propriety of making, of having the doctor make, comments in respect to a particular group of newspaper articles. There have been comments, as we all know, around the world, of great variety and great extent, and it would be practically impossible, I suppose, to check all of the accounts and in failing to check one would not wish to have it suggested that others, the accuracy of others was being endorsed.

I would suggest that the staff make an examination of the files that we have of the comments, together with such tape recordings as may have been taken of the actual press conferences, and after that examination is made we can then determine, perhaps a little more effectively, what might be done to clarify this

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situation so that it would conform to the actual statements that the doctor has made.

Mr. DULLES. Well, Mr. McCloy, it is quite satisfactory with me and I agree with you we cannot run down all of the rumors in all of the press and it is quite satisfactory with me to wait and see whether we have adequate information to deal with this situation when we get in the complete tapes of the various television, radio and other appearances, so that we have a pretty complete record of what these two witnesses and others have said on the points we have been discussing here today.

So I quite agree we will await this presentation to the doctors until we have had a further chance to review this situation.

What I wanted to be sure was that when we are through with this we do have in our files and records adequate information to deal with a great many of the false rumors that have been spread on the basis of false interpretation of these appearances before television, radio, and so forth and so on.

Representative FORD. Is that all, Mr. Dulles, and Mr. McCloy?

Mr. DULLES. Yes.

Mr. McCLOY. May I ask at this point, did you examine Governor Connally, too?

Dr. PERRY. I was in the operating room briefly to see about his leg.

Mr. McCLOY. You haven't come to that point in your interrogation.

Mr. SPECTER. I did not.

Mr. McCLOY. I understood you to say you did examine Oswald.

Dr. PERRY. Yes, sir; I operated on Oswald.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you now described in general the press conferences in which you participated immediately after the treatment which you rendered to President Kennedy and following the treatment which you assisted in rendering to Mr. Oswald?

Dr. PERRY. To the best of my knowledge.

Mr. SPECTER. And did you make an effort to leave the area of Dallas immediately following the Monday after the weekend of the assassination and the killing of Oswald in an effort to get away from the press conferences?

Dr. PERRY. I left Monday afternoon approximately 3 o'clock.

Mr. SPECTER. Where did you

Dr. PERRY. I went to McAllen, Tex., to the home of my mother-in-law.

Mr. SPECTER. And how far is that from Dallas?

Dr. PERRY. About 560 miles.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you leave instructions as to revealing the destination that you set upon?

Dr. PERRY. No, only with Dr. Shires and my secretary.

Mr. SPECTER. And were you contacted by the press in McAllen?

Dr. PERRY. The following day.

Mr. SPECTER. And were your whereabouts given either by Dr. Shires or your secretary?

Dr. PERRY. No, it was not.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you relate briefly the sequence that followed in McAllen, Tex.

Dr. PERRY. The gentleman from UPI came out and knocked on the door, and I was quite surprised, not having told anyone where I was going, and I asked him if he would mind telling me how he found out how I was there, and looking back at it I was kind of naive, I went to a relative and told no one else. He had a wire in his hands which he showed me indicating it had come from the Dallas office, naming the place where I was, and the exact address, and who I was staying with.

Mr. SPECTER. Did he ask to take pictures of you?

Dr. PERRY. He did.

Mr. SPECTER. What was your response?

Dr. PERRY. This was denied.

Mr. SPECTER. And did he ask you questions?

Dr. PERRY. He did, essentially the same questions which I have reiterated as to the emergency treatment that was undertaken. He did not press the point as to the number of bullets or anything of that, and I told him I had no knowledge

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of that. He only asked about the emergency measures I had taken and I related them to him as I have to you.

Mr. SPECTER. Subsequently, did an article appear about you in the Saturday Evening Post?

Dr. PERRY. It did.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you outline briefly the circumstances surrounding the appearance of that article as you felt them to be?

Dr. PERRY. We were contacted, not I directly but Dr. Shires, by the medical editor of the Saturday Evening Post, this was all related to me by Dr. Shires, in regard to a possible story. This was declined, since Dr. Shires and those of us in the department felt that the news value was gone and this was commercialism, and they told Dr. Shires, I am told, that they would not print anything.

However, an article appearing under a New York Herald Tribune uncopyrighted by-line apparently was subsequently acquired by them and published.

Mr. SPECTER. And was that article accurate, inaccurate, or what was the level of accuracy of the contents thereof?

Dr. PERRY. The level of accuracy was not very good at all. It was overly dramatic, garish and in poor taste, and ethically damaging to me.

Mr. SPECTER. In what way was it ethically damaging to you, Dr. Perry?

Dr. PERRY. As you know, it is our policy that the physician's name in the treatment of any patient be essentially kept quiet. There are unusual circumstances surrounding this one, of course, and our names were made public.

But this mentions my name freely, published a photograph that apparently was taken of me at the press conference and had previously appeared in a newspaper, and a picture of the emergency room, trauma room No. 1, and although most of the people in the medical profession, I have subsequently been assured by the Society of Surgeons and AMA, that they realize I had no part in it, which is obvious to them because of the gross inaccuracies. Nonetheless it is harmful to me as a member of the faculty of the medical school to have such an article in print.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Perry, did you have occasion to discuss your observations with Comdr. James J. Humes of the Bethesda Naval Hospital?

Dr. PERRY. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. SPECTER. When did that conversation occur?

Dr. PERRY. My knowledge as to the exact accuracy of it is obviously in doubt. I was under the initial impression that I talked to him on Friday, but I understand it was on Saturday. I didn't recall exactly when.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have an independent recollection at this moment as to whether it was on Friday or Saturday?

Dr. PERRY. No, sir; I have thought about it again and the events surrounding that weekend were very kaleidoscopic, and I talked with Dr. Humes on two occasions, separated by a very short interval of, I think it was, 30 minutes or an hour or so, it could have been a little longer.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the medium of your conversation?

Dr. PERRY. Over the telephone.

Mr. SPECTER. Did he identify himself to you as Dr. Humes of Bethesda?

Dr. PERRY. He did.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you state as specifically as you can recollect the conversation that you first had with him?

Dr. PERRY. He advised me that he could not discuss with me the findings of necropsy, that he had a few questions he would like to clarify. The initial phone call was in relation to my doing a tracheotomy. Since I had made the incision directly through the wound in the neck, it made it difficult for them to ascertain the exact nature of this wound. Of course, that did not occur to me at the time. I did what appeared to me to be medically expedient. And when I informed him that there was a wound there and I suspected an underlying

wound of the trachea and even perhaps of the great vessels he advised me that he thought this action was correct and he said he could not relate to me any of the other findings.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you relate to me in lay language what necropsy is?

Dr. PERRY. Autopsy, postmortem examination.

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Mr. SPECTER. What was the content of the second conversation which you had with Comdr. Humes, please?

Dr. PERRY. The second conversation was in regard to the placement of the chest tubes for drainage of the chest cavity. And I related to him, as I have to you, the indications that prompted me to advise that this be done at that time.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Perry, did you observe any bruising of the neck muscles of President Kennedy when you were engaged in your operative procedure that you have described?

Dr. PERRY. This bruising, as you describe, would have been obscured by the fact that there was a large amount of blood, hematoma, present in the neck and the mediastinum and hence all the blood tissues were covered by this blood.

Mr. SPECTER. A few moments ago in response to a question by Mr. McCloy I believe you commented that, as you recollected it, very few of the doctors would have had an opportunity to observe the hole in the President's neck and I think you said that only you and Dr. Carrico would have had such an opportunity. Can you state, with absolute certainty, at which point the various doctors ar rived in the room? And bear in mind on this that while you have not had the opportunity to review the depositions, some of the other doctors have expressed the view that they have had an opportunity to see the wound. Specifically, Dr. M. T. Jenkins said in a deposition that he did see the wound, and I have not had an opportunity to ask you that question before, because you made the comment during the course of the testimony today.

But I would like your comment on, in your opinion, whether the other doctors would have had an opportunity, perhaps, to observe the neck wound prior to the tracheotomy?

Dr. PERRY. Since I don't know with accuracy the exact times of their arrival, it is conceivable that others could have seen it. And Dr. Jenkins was apparently one of the early arrivals in the room-

However, at the time that I arrived, as I related, Dr. Carrico was present and Dr. Jones and I. Dr. Jones immediately directed himself toward obtaining another intravenous infusion, and I immediately went to the neck wound. At the time of arrival of the other surgeons which assisted me in the operation, I had already made the incision.

Dr. Jenkins could have arrived at the time that I was preparing to make the incision and seen the wound. It is possible, I don't know when he came in the room. I know he did not examine the wound per se.

Mr. SPECTER. And similarly Dr. Jones has commented in the course of his deposition about the situation with respect to the wound in the neck.

Based on your observations, would it be consistent with what you know to be fact that he had an opportunity to examine the neck wound?

Dr. PERRY. I know he might have seen it because he and I entered the room simultaneously, we came down .together. To my knowledge, he did not examine

the wound although he might have noted the wound present as I went to work.

Mr. SPECTER. Specifically what did he do then as you went to work?

Dr. PERRY. He was standing immediately on my left at that point, doing a venesection, a cut down in the left arm for the administration of fluids so he was able to observe the performance of the tracheotomy.

Mr. SPECTER. In your opinion, Dr. Perry, was President Kennedy alive or dead on arrival at Parkland?

Dr. PERRY. The President was alive in that spontaneous ineffective respiratory motions were observed by me, and although I never detected a pulse or a heartbeat, I was told there was also electrical activity on the cardiotachyscope when it was initially attached indicating there was spontaneous activity of the heart.

He was, therefore alive for medical purposes.

Mr. SPECTER. Who told you about the electrical activity on the cardiotachyscope?

Dr. PERRY. Dr. Clark.

Mr. SPECTER. Was any bullet found by you or by any other doctor at Parkland in the Presidents body?

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Dr. PERRY. I found none. To the best of my knowledge neither did anyone else.

Mr. SPECTER. Was the President ever turned over at any time?

Dr. PERRY. Not by me nor did I see it done.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you present as long as any other doctor was present in the emergency room?

Dr. PERRY. No, sir; I think that at the time that I left trauma room one, I went outside, and washed my hands, and I opened the door briefly to retrieve my coat which I had left there on the floor and the nurse handed my coat.

At that time as I recall Doctor Jenkins was still in the room and there several other people there including Mrs. Kennedy and the priest, and gentlemen whom I did not know.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, did you make any effort to examine the clothing of President Kennedy?

Dr. PERRY. I did not.

(At this point, Representative Boggs entered the hearing room.)

Mr. SPECTER. Why was it, Dr. Perry, that there was no effort made to examine the clothing of President Kennedy and no effort to turn him over and examine the back of the President?

Dr. PERRY. At the termination of the procedure and after we had deter mined that Mr. Kennedy had expired, I cannot speak for the others but as for myself, my work was done. I fought a losing battle, and I actually obviously, having seen a lot of wounds, had no morbid curiosity, and actually was rather anxious to leave the room. I had nothing further to offer.

Mr. SPECTER. With the President having been declared dead, did you consider it was your function to make any further exploration of the President's body?

Dr. PERRY. This is not my function or my prerogative. This would be undertaken by suitable authorities at the time of postmortem, people with experience superior to mine in determining things of this sort.

Mr. SPECTER. Where was Mrs. Kennedy, if you know, during the course of the treatment which you have described that you performed?

Dr. PERRY. I had the initial impression she was in the room most of the time although I have been corrected on this. When I entered the room she was standing by the door, rather kneeling by the door, and someone was standing there beside her. I saw her several times during the course of the resuscitative measures, when I would look up from the operative field to secure an instrument from the nearby tray--

Mr. DULLES. Under your procedure who had the responsibility for declaring that the President was dead?

Dr. PERRY. This was a combination of factors, Mr. Dulles, undertaken by those of us all in attendance, by Dr. Clark and Dr. Jenkins and myself particularly since we were the senior people there.

I was informed subsequently that Mrs. Kennedy left the room several times to just outside the door but returned although as I say, I saw her several times in the room. I did not speak to her nor she to me so I do not have any knowledge as to exactly what she was doing.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any wound in the President's chest?

Dr. PERRY. I did not.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any wound on the left side of the President's head?

Dr. PERRY. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you heretofore during the course of your testimony today described all of the wounds in the President which you have observed?

Dr. PERRY. I have.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you and the other doctors affected, in your opinion, in your treatment of the President by virtue of the fact that he was the President of the United States?

Dr. PERRY. Yes, sir; I am sure that is true. At the time that I was going down the stairs to the emergency room I was, of course, quite concerned, not

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knowing any of the circumstances surrounding the incident nor in what condition I would find him, and at the time that I entered the room, and it was my initial impression that he had a mortal wound.

At that point I directed myself to doing that which I could do and, of course, the time then became quite compressed during the course of the procedures and it was really not until afterwards that the full impact of what had happened began to hit me.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any occasion to render any treatment to Governor Connally at Parkland Hospital?

Dr. PERRY. I saw the Governor in regard to the consultation in regard to the injury to his leg. As I related earlier I am consultant in vascular surgery to the hospital, and the estimated course of the missile in his leg presupposed that he might have an injury to his femoral artery or vein and Dr. Shires asked me if I would put on a scrub suit and come to the operating room too in case it was necessary to do some arterial surgery.

It was not, however, so I did not operate.

Mr. SPECTER. At what time approximately did you arrive at the operating room where Governor Connally was being cared for?

Dr. PERRY. I don't know, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Was it during the course of the operation performed by Dr. Shires?

Dr. PERRY. Yes, At that time I was there during the time Dr. Shires was there and Dr. Gregory was also operating on the arm at that point. Dr. Shaw had completed his portion of the procedure.

Mr. SPECTER. That would have been after the press conference had been completed?

Dr. PERRY. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Did-you have occasion to render medical aid to Lee Harvey Oswald on November 24?

Dr. PERRY. I did.

Mr. McCLOY. Before you get to that may I get clear, Dr. Shires and Dr. Gregory were in attendance?

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw in addition.

Dr. PERRY. Yes, and Shaw.

Mr. McCLOY. Shaw, Shires and Gregory?

Dr. PERRY. S-h-i-r-e-s.

Representative BOGGS. Before you get to Oswald may I ask one question? I am sure the doctor covered it. You said the minute you saw the President you felt he had suffered a mortal wound?

Dr. PERRY. Yes, sir.

Representative BOGGS. You saw the wound immediately then?

Dr. PERRY. Well, I saw his condition immediately, and as you are aware, I have attended a lot of people with severe injuries.

Representative BOGGS. Surely.

Dr. PERRY. And. he obviously was in extremis when I walked in the room. And then I noted very cursorily the wound in the head and it was obvious that this was an extremely serious wound.

Representative BOGGS Was he still alive when you saw him?

Dr. PERRY. He was.

Representative BOGGS. That is all.

Representative FORD. May I ask, Mr. Specter, during the total time that you were examining and treating the President, how much of his exposed body did you see?

Dr. PERRY. The upper trunk predominantly, Congressman Ford. His chest, and, of course, his arms were bare, neck and head. I did not examine any other portions of his body nor did I see any other portions except briefly when I felt for the femoral pulse on the left side.

Representative FORD. From the waist on up the front?

Dr. PERRY. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you describe the treatment rendered to Mr. Oswald at Parkland Memorial Hospital by yourself and by others as you observed it?

Dr.-PERRY. At the time I saw starting with when I was called?

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Mr. SPECTER. Yes.

Dr. PERRY. Well, I went immediately to the emergency room again, Jones and I who also was in the hospital again, and told me that I was the only attending surgeon present, and that they were bringing Mr. Oswald out, and I was in the surgery suite and I went directly to the emergency room just as he was being brought indoors.

Mr. SPECTER. At approximately what time was that?

Dr. PERRY. I really don't know, sir. It was about 11:15 or so when I was up in surgery. I had been seeing a baby in regard to an operation we had scheduled at 1 o'clock and then Dr. Jones came after me.

Mr. SPECTER. How long did it take you approximately to travel from the point where you received the notice that he was en route until your arrival at the emergency room?

Dr. PERRY. No more than 2 or 3 minutes.

Mr. SPECTER. And you say you arrived there simultaneously with Mr. Oswald?

Dr. PERRY. Just as he came in.

Mr. SPECTER. Precisely where in the hospital was it where you met Oswald?

Dr. PERRY. He was brought into the emergency room, trauma room number two, and as they wheeled him in I came around the corner.

Mr. SPECTER. What action did you take with respect to Mr. Oswald?

Dr. PERRY. Well, there were numerous people in attendance, more so than on the previous incident on Friday. He also obviously was quite seriously injured. He was cyanotic, very blue and although he also was attempting respirations, they were not effective, and an endotracheal tube was placed in him by one of the anesthesiologists, I think Dr. Jenkins, and I examined his chest and noted the entrance point of the bullet wound on the left side and I could feel the bullet just under the skin on the right side, right rear margin, indicating the bullet had passed entirely through his body and come to rest under the skin.

Mr. SPECTER. Where through his body?

Dr. PERRY. I beg your pardon sir, the bullet entered approximately the midaxillary line at about the 9th or 10th interspace on the left side of the chest cage, and came to rest just under the rib margin on the right side under the skin

Mr. SPECTER. Could you supply in lay language what cyanotic means?

Dr. PERRY. Blue from lack of oxygen.

Mr. SPECTER. Could you explain in lay language the midaxillary line?

Dr. PERRY. It is about the mid portion of the fold extending down from the armpit on the left. This is just rough because I glanced at that briefly and determined the nature of the path of the bullet and from looking at him it was obvious that this had traversed major structures in his body in order to reach that particular place, so while a cutdown was being done again to administer fluid, I asked someone to put in a left chest tube on him because it appeared it went in and I recalled surgery until they were bringing him directly up.

Dr. Tom Shires, Chief of the Surgical Services, came into the door at a point and Dr. McClelland, and we left and went to surgery to change clothes and they brought him from there immediately to surgery and we proceeded with the operation.

Mr. SPECTER. Who was present, if anyone, with Mr. Oswald at the time you arrived there?

Dr. PERRY. In the emergency room?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes.

Dr. PERRY. Dr. Jenkins was there, Dr. M. T. Jenkins Chief of Anesthesiology.

I think Dr. Giesecke was also there again, although I am not sure of that. I saw Dr. Risk who is a resident in urology and I saw Dr. Dulany who is a resident in surgery. Dr. Boland, I believe who is a resident in thoracic surgery and, of course, Dr. Jones and myself, and there were several other people, the nurses, I don't recall.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe briefly the physical layout utilized in taking

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Mr. Oswald from trauma room number two which you have already described up to the operating room?

Dr. PERRY. We have an express elevator that connects delivery room, operating room, emergency room and it is approximately 20 yards from trauma room two, I would estimate, just around the comer, in an even corridor and al though I was not there as they took him up, I was in the operating room preparing and scrubbing, he was wheeled directly there to the express elevator and taken to the second floor where the operating suites are.

Mr. SPECTER. Approximately how long does it take to get a patient from the trauma room up to the operating room?

Dr. PERRY. It depends on a lot of factors. One is if the elevator is there or not or if it happens to be in surgery or in the delivery room. But I have on occasion where it was necessary that you must go with all dispatch to the operating room, have done it in a matter of a few minutes.

They brought him right in the door, placed him on the elevator with a finger controlling the hemorrhage where you could take him directly to the operating room. I have done that in a matter, I am sure, of less than 3 or 4 minutes if I had to.

Mr. SPECTER. Approximately how long did it take to get Oswald from trauma room two to the operating room?

Dr. PERRY. I don't know, I was told subsequently it was 12 minutes from the time we had him up. And----

Representative BOGGS. How long was it from the time he was shot until he reached the hospital?

Dr. PERRY. I have no knowledge of that, sir.

Representative BOGGS. Do you know?

Mr. SPECTER. No; I don't know.

Mr. DULLES. Was he conscious at any time so far as you know?

Dr. PERRY. No, sir; he did not say a word.

Mr. DULLES. He was not conscious?

Dr. PERRY. No, sir; and even had he been, of course, once we had the endotracheal tube in he could not have spoken.

Mr. SPECTER. Who was in charge of the operation performed on Mr. Oswald?

Dr. PERRY. Dr. Tom Shires.

Mr. SPECTER. Who was in assistance with Dr. Shires?

Dr. PERRY. I first assisted Dr. Shires and then Ronald Jones and Dr. McClelland were also at the operation.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe the operative procedures employed on Mr. Oswald please?

Dr. PERRY. Yes. From the nature of the trajectory of the wound and the nature of the path of the bullet on the other side it was obvious that it had traversed major vessels, the aorta and vena cava. The aorta and vena cava, the heart area, and then a midline incision was made. A rapid prep with iodine was done, the patient was draped. An incision was carried rapidly into the abdominal cavity at which time we noticed approximately 3 litres of free blood which is an excess of three quarts. This was removed by suction, lap packs and by just moving it out in the form of clots with the hands. It was noted there was considerable bleeding appearing in both the right upper and left upper quadrants of the body. There was a large hematoma retroperitoneally in the midline also, causing the bowels to be pushed forward rather strikingly.

We immediately dissected over the portal vein on the right since it was apparently injured, and placed a vascular occlusive clamp of the Sittinsky type in this area to control the bleeding. Noted an injury to the right kidney and to the lobe of the liver. We also noted there was an injury to the stomach, the pancreas, the spleen. At that point it became apparent that he had indeed struck major vessels, and appeared to be the aorta, so the left colon was reflected very rapidly in order to allow us to enter the space behind the intestines, the retroperitoneal space, and at that point I controlled the bleeding from the aorta by finger pressure below and above this area.

The bullet had knocked the superior mesenteric artery completely off the aorta exposing a large area.

After I had controlled the bleeding Dr. Shires was able to dissect around the

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area sufficient to allow us to gain control of the aorta, superior artery and the vena cava and the placement of vascular clamps across these vessels in order to stop the hemorrhage.

At this point, he was being given blood and of course, the suitable anesthesia measures which were oxygen under pressure. He did not require an anesthetic agent, I am told.

Mr. SPECTER. Who told you that, Dr. Perry?

Dr. PERRY. I think one of the residents did, one of the anesthesia residents.

We at that point had restored his blood pressure. I don't know the exact recordings, but I was told subsequently it had returned to near normal levels since we had the bleeding controlled.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the situation with respect to his respiration at that time?

Dr. PERRY. It was being assisted and controlled, of course, by anesthesiology. This was no problem. We had a tube in place and was breathing for him so he had no problem with respiration. This was completely under control of anesthesia. The blood pressure was controlled and we stopped for a moment to determine how we would best go about repairing the structures and which would have priority, all the bleeding had stopped but, as I recall, the clamping of the aorta at the level of the superior mesenteric artery means, of course, that you must prevent blood from entering the kidneys, and this in itself can be hazardous if extended, and therefore we decided this must be repaired immediately in order to restore blood into the kidneys and the lower portion of the body.

Then Dr. Jenkins informed me and Dr. Shires that his cardiac action was becoming weak, and I don't remember all the details surrounding the medications and the things ,that were done at this particular time, but he developed a backward cardiac failure, his heart slowed abruptly and the blood pressure fell again and it was apparent the tremendous blood loss he had had set the stage for irreversible shock and lack of pumping action from the heart although he was being given massive transfusions, I don't know the exact number, probably he had 10 or 12 units. I believe it is in the record.

At this point when they told me a cardiac arrest had occurred as a result of the hemorrhage and blood loss I took a knife and opened the left chest in the fourth interspace and reached in to massage his heart, and the heart was flabby, and dilated, and apparently contained very little blood.

I began to massage the heart, to maintain it as we infused the blood and was able to obtain a palpable pulse in the carotid vessels going to the. neck and into the head. We were unable to get the heart to go, and it began to fibrillate which is an uncoordinated motion of the muscles of the heart itself and the successive electrical shocks were applied with the defibrillator and to stimulate heart action, and we failed in this and the cardiac pacemaker was sewn in place, and it was handed to me by the thoracic surgery resident, and I sewed it into the heart to artificially induce heart action, this also was without benefit.

We were never able to restore effective heart action and then Dr. Jenkins informed us neurologically he was not responding, that his reflexes were gone, and he felt that he had expired.

Mr. SPECTER. At approximately what time did that occur?

Dr. PERRY. I don't know, Mr. Specter, I would have to look at the record.

Mr. SPECTER. At approximately how long after he arrived at the hospital did that occur?

Dr. PERRY. I don't know that either.

Mr. SPECTER. Can you approximate the length of time of the operation itself?

Dr. PERRY. 45 minutes or so, I would say.

Mr. SPECTER. Is there any question but that he was alive during the course of your operative procedures?

Dr. PERRY. Oh, no, no question. The fact is we were very close, I think, to winning the battle. We have seen injuries of this magnitude, they rarely survive, this is a very serious injury and to the best of my knowledge I have not seen anyone with this particular set of injuries survive. But at one point once we controlled the hemorrhage and once I had control of the aorta and was

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able to stop the bleeding of that area I actually felt we had a very good chance since everything had proceeded with expediency.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you been interviewed by any representative of the Federal Government in connection with your treatment of President Kennedy, Dr. Perry?

Dr. PERRY. Yes, I have.

Mr. SPECTER. By whom were you interviewed?

Dr. PERRY. I regret that I do not recall their names. I was interviewed by two gentlemen from the Secret Service approximately the following week, as I recall, and again about a month ago.

Mr. SPECTER. And what questions were asked of you on the first interview by the Secret Service?

Dr. PERRY. Essentially in regard to the treatment and once again speculation as to where the bullets might have originated and what the nature of the wounds were and I was unable to supply them with any adequate in formation.

Mr. SPECTER. Were the responses given by you to the Secret Service on that first interview essentially the same as you have given today?

Dr. PERRY. With minor variations in wording, they are essentially the same.

Mr. SPECTER. Approximately when did the second interview occur with the Secret Service?

Dr. PERRY. I think approximately a month ago, although I am not sure of that.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the content of that interview?

Dr. PERRY. A gentleman identified himself as being connected with the Warren Commission and Secret Service. I asked for his credentials which he duly supplied and he asked me in regard to any further information I might have pertaining to the events of that weekend, and we reiterated some of these statements which I made previously, and since I had nothing more to add, why it was terminated.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you supply any information which was in any way different from that which you have testified to here today?

Dr. PERRY. In essence; no, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. On the second interview, did the man identify himself to you as a Secret Service agent who was conducting a further inquiry at the request of the President's Commission?

Dr. PERRY. Yes, sir; he said he was with the Warren Commission.

Mr. SPECTER. Did I discuss the facts within your knowledge or take your deposition in Dallas on Wednesday, March 25, 1964?

Dr. PERRY. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And was the information which you provided at that time in advance of the deposition and during the course of the deposition itself the same as the information which you provided here today concerning the treatment of President Kennedy, your observations and opinions on President Kennedy?

Dr. PERRY. It is.

Mr. SPECTER. Have I made that transcript available to you this morning before we started this testimony?

Dr. PERRY. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you at any time changed any opinion which you held concerning any matter relating to President Kennedy?

Dr. PERRY. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you prepare a handwritten report on your care of President Kennedy which became part of the record of Parkland Hospital?

Dr. PERRY. I did.

Mr. SPECTER. Which you identified during the course of the deposition proceeding as being your report?

Dr. PERRY. Yes, that is correct.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any other notes of your own relating to any of the matters which you testified here today?

Dr. PERRY. None.

Mr. McCLOY. What was the condition of, general physical condition, apart from the wounds, of Oswald, as you observed him? Was his body healthy?

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Dr. PERRY. I made only a very cursory examination, Mr. McCloy. He appeared rather thin to me.

Mr. McCLOY. Not, you wouldn't call him a muscular type?

Dr. PERRY. No, he would be what we would describe as a thinnish individual, that is very thin; was wiry rather than bulky muscles.

Mr. McCLOY. Were there any signs that you observed cursorily, symptoms of any prior disease?

Dr. PERRY. No, I did not look for those.

Mr. DULLES. No distinguishing marks on the body that you saw, prior operations?

Dr. PERRY. No, sir; I did not look. There was no evidence of previous surgical operation on his abdomen, and I didn't examine anything else.

Of course, this also can be missed unless you are looking for it. We went through the midline and unless one went looking for it we did not have time and we would not see it.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Perry, was the chest tube inserted in the President's chest abandoned or was that operation or operative procedure completed?

Dr. PERRY. The chest tube, to be placed there, was supposedly placed into the pleural cavity. However, I have knowledge that it was not.

Mr. SPECTER. And what was the reason for its not being placed into the plueral cavity?

Dr. PERRY. I did not speak with certainty but at that point I think that we were at the end of the procedure and they just did not continue with it.

Mr. SPECTER. Had it become apparent at that time that the President expired?

Dr. PERRY. That, I think, is probably true, but I did not state that with certainty because I cannot state the exact sequence. I was employed myself at the time, and I think if it had been determined that this was not in, it would have been completed, if there was still time, but I am not sure of that. That is speculation.

Mr. SPECTER. With respect to the condition of the neck wounds, was it ragged or pushed out in any manner?

Dr. PERRY. No, it was not. As I originally described it, the edges were neither cleancut, that is punched out, nor were they very ragged. I realize that is not a very specific description but it is in between those two areas.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there blood in that area which tended to obscure your view?

Dr. PERRY. It was exuding blood during that procedure and thus I did not examine it very closely. In retrospect, I think it would have been of much more value had I looked at these things more carefully but I had directed my attention to other things.

Mr. SPECTER. Those complete my questions.

Representative FORD. Mr. McCloy? Mr. Dulles?

Have you examined the autopsy report made by the officials in Bethesda?

Dr. PERRY. Yes, sir, I have.

Representative FORD. Does your testimony conform to the facts stated in that report?

Dr. PERRY. I think so. At the time the testimony which I have given here of my knowledge without the was given the same as it was without the basis of that report. But now having had access to that report. I think it ties in very nicely. I see no discrepancies at all. For example, had I known that he had these other two wounds, it would have been much easier at the time to state a little more categorically about the trajectory of the missiles, but not knowing about those I could only speculate.

Representative FORD. There is no basic conflict between what you have testified to or what you have said previously, and the autopsy report?

Dr. PERRY. None at all.

Representative BOGGS. Just one question. I presume this question has been asked.

This neck wound, was there any indication that that wound had come from the front?

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Dr. PERRY. There is no way to tell, sir, for sure. As you may recall, passage of a high velocity missile, the damage it does, is dependent on two factors, actually, one being deformation of the missile, increase in its relative caliber, and the other the expending of the energy of that missile in the object it strikes.

For example, the energy used to carry the missile beyond the object that it struck is obviously not going to cause much of an injury. If there is a missile of relatively high velocity, although I consider this a medium velocity weapon, that the missile for entrance or exit had the bullet not been deformed would not be substantially different, had it not been deformed nor particularly slowed in its velocity.

Representative BOGGS. By that, you mean it would be difficult to determine the point of exit and the point of entrance under those circumstances?

Dr. PERRY. Yes, sir; unless one were able to ascertain the trajectory. If you could, for example, make check points between what the missile might have struck, then you could ascertain trajectory. But with a relatively high velocity missile, this also is difficult due to the amount of blast injury which occurs in enclosed tissues, similar to those I am sure you have seen to those discussed, so blast injury can be an area remote from the exact passage of the missile itself.

Representative BOGGS. Of course, your main concern was to try to save the President's life and not

Dr. PERRY. Yes, sir; it actually never occurred to me until all the questions. began to come, and I was ill-prepared to meet them, but it never occurred to me that, to investigate, because I was busy, and I have done these types of things many times.

It just never occurred to me to look into it until afterwards.

Representative FORD. Any questions, Dean Storey?

Mr. STOREY. No, thank you, sir.

Representative FORD. Mr. Murray?

Mr. MURRAY. No.

Mr. DULLES. I have one more question I would like to ask.

Did you know anything about the spent bullet that was found on, I don't know what you call it-the litter?

Dr. PERRY. On the carriage?

Mr. DULLES. On the carriage.

Dr. PERRY. My first knowledge of that was one of the newspaper publications had said there was a bullet found there. I don't know now whether it was or was not. I didn't find it.

Mr. SPECTER. May I say, Mr. Dulles, on that subject, I took several depositions on that subject in the Dallas Hospital and I think we have a reasonably conclusive answer on that question; and, in fact, it came from the stretcher of Governor Connally.

Dr. PERRY. They were quoted as having removed a bullet from Governor Connally's leg, the press quoted that, but a bullet was not removed from Governor Connally's leg.

Mr. SPECTER. There was no bullet removed from Governor Connally's leg, but there was a wound there, but there was a very small fragment embedded in the femur, as the deposition of Drs. Shaw, Shires, and Gregory will show. But the bullet was found on a stretcher and the question arose as to whose stretcher it was, and we have traced the two stretchers in a way so as to exclude the possibility of its being the stretcher on which President Kennedy was carried, and we have traced the path of Governor Connally's stretcher and have narrowed it to two stretchers. And the bullet came off of one of the two stretchers, so that, through the circumstances of the facts, it is reasonably conclusive that it came from the stretcher of Governor Connally.

Representative FORD. How long did it take you to go from where you were when the page came to get down to trauma room No. 1?

Dr. PERRY. A matter of no more than a minute or so, Congressman Ford. It is down one flight of stairs and the door is almost immediately adjacent to the dining room where we would go and we did not wait on the elevator. We went down the stairs.

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Representative FORD. How long after the President was brought in before you went to trauma room No. 1?

Dr. PERRY. That I don't know either. My last recollection in regard to time was approximately 12:30 when I was having lunch prior to rounds, and Dr. Jones picked up the page and as we went downstairs I took off my watch and dropped it in my coat pocket, rather expecting to do some kind of procedure, and I took off my coat and I never looked at the clock until afterwards.

Mr. McCLOY. One more question, I want to get clear.

The extent to which you examined Governor Connally's wounds, as I gather, you were asked to stand by.

Dr. PERRY. That is right, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. Rather than to be involved in a close examination of the wounds.

Dr. PERRY. That is right, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. So you are not generally familiar?

Dr. PERRY. No, sir; all I did was come into the operating room, put on a scrub suit, cap and mask, and looked at the thigh wound before Dr. Shires started the operation. That was the extent of the episode into the wound, and I stayed there while he carried it down to the lower portion of the wound and indicated there was no serious injury and I left the operating room at that point.

Mr. McCLOY. And you didn't see the other two wounds?

Dr. PERRY. I didn't see the other wounds at all, sir.

Representative FORD Thank you very much, Dr. Perry. Your testimony has been most helpful.

(Whereupon, at 11:45 a.m., the President's Commission recessed.)

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Volume VI

TESTIMONY OF DR. MALCOLM OLIVER PERRY

The testimony of Dr. Malcolm Oliver Perry was taken at 3:25 p.m., on March 25, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. SPECTER May the record show that Dr. Malcolm O. Perry is present in response to a letter request that he appear here to have his deposition taken in connection with the proceedings of the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy, which is now inquiring into all facets of the

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shooting, including the medical attention received by President Kennedy at Parkland Hospital, in which Dr. Perry participated.

With that preliminary statement of purpose, would you please stand up, Dr. Perry, and raise your right hand?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give before the President's Commission in these deposition proceedings will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Dr. PERRY. I do.

Mr. SPECTER. All right. Would you state your full name for the record, please?

Dr. PERRY. Malcolm Oliver Perry.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your profession, sir?

Dr. PERRY. Physician and surgeon.

Mr. SPECTER. And how old are you?

Dr. PERRY. Thirty-four.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you duly licensed to practice medicine in the State of Texas?

Dr. PERRY. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you outline briefly your educational background, please?

Dr. PERRY. Starting with high school?

Mr. SPECTER. That will be fine.

Dr. PERRY. I attended high school at Allen High School and at Plano High School, graduating from the latter in 1947. I entered the University of Texas from whence I duly graduated with a degree of Bachelor of Arts in 1951. I went to Southwestern Medical School of the University of Texas for the subsequent 4 years, graduating in 1955 with a degree of Doctor of Medicine. I interned at Letterman's Army Hospital in San Francisco, and returned to a residency in surgery at Parkland Hospital in July 1958. I finished that residency in June 1962, and then returned to San Francisco and spent 1 year as additional specialization in vascular surgery. I then returned in September 1963, to Southwestern Medical School of the University of Texas as an assistant professor of surgery.

Mr. SPECTER. What were your duties on November 22, 1963?

Dr. PERRY. Well, as is accustomed, I was at that time on two services, both a general surgery service and a vascular surgery service as a consultant and attending surgeon.

Mr. SPECTER And, what were you doing specifically shortly after noontime on November 22?

Dr. PERRY. Well, at the time of the incident in question, I was having lunch in the main dining room with the chief resident, Dr. Ronald Jones, in preparation for the usual Friday rounds at 1 o'clock with the residents.

Mr. SPECTER And what occurred during the course of that luncheon?

Dr. PERRY. Dr. Jones, as I say, and I were having lunch when an emergency call came over the speaker system for Dr. Tom Shires, who is the chief of surgery. I knew that Dr. Shires was in Galveston giving a paper and was not in the hospital, so Dr. Jones picked up the page to see if he or I could be of assistance. We were informed by the hospital operator that Mr. Kennedy had been shot and was being brought to Parkland Hospital for care.

Mr. SPECTER. And what action did you take as a result of learning those factors ?

Dr. PERRY. The dining room was located one floor up from the emergency room, so Dr. Jones and I went immediately to the emergency room to render what assistance we could.

At the time of our arrival in the emergency room, the President was already there, and as I entered trauma room No. 1, Dr. James Carrico, the surgical resident on duty, had just placed an endotracheal tube to assist respiration.

Mr. SPECTER. Who was present in addition to Dr. Carrico, if you recall, at that time?

Dr. PERRY. I cannot with accuracy relate all the people that were there---- Dr. Carrico, I saw and spoke to briefly. There were several other people in the room. There were several nurses there---I don't know at this time who they were. Mrs. Kennedy was in the room and there was a gentleman with her and

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there were several other gentlemen beth in the door and right outside the door to the room. Some of them, I assume, part of the legal force.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any other doctors in the room at that time?

Dr. PERRY. No, sir; I did not. There was somebody else in the room, but I don't know who it was. I remember only Dr. Carrico---I had the impression that one of the interns was in the room, but this may be an impression gathered after the fact.

Mr. SPECTER. What did. you observe as to the President's condition at the time you first saw him ?

Dr. PERRY. He was lying supine on the emergency cart directly in the center of the room under the overhead lamp. His shirt had been removed, and intravenous infusion was being begun in the right leg, I believe. Dr. Carrico was at the head of the table attaching the oxygen apparatus to assist in respiration.

I noted there was a large wound of the right posterior parietal area in the head exposing lacerated brain. There was blood and brain tissue on the cart. The President's eyes were deviated and dilated and he was unresponsive. There was a small wound in the lower anterior third in the midline of the neck, from which blood was exuding very slowly.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe that wound as precisely as you can, please?

Dr. PERRY. The wound was roughly spherical to oval in shape, not a punched-out wound, actually, nor was it particularly ragged. It was rather clean cut, but the blood obscured any detail about the edges of the wound exactly.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the condition of the edges of the wound, if you can recollect?

Dr. PERRY. I couldn't state with certainty, due to the fact that they were covered by blood. and I did not make a minute examination. I determined only the fact that there was a wound there, roughly 5 mm. in size or so.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you now described it as precisely as you can; that wound?

Dr. PERRY. I think so.

Mr. SPECTER. What else, if anything, did you observe as to the condition of the President?

Dr. PERRY. Spasmodic respiratory efforts were obvious, but I did not detect a pulse nor a heart beat on a very rapid examination. It was apparent that respirations were ineffective, even with the use of the endotracheal tube and oxygen. At that point I asked Dr. Carrico if this was a wound in his neck or had he begun the tracheotomy, and he said it was a wound and I, at that point, asked someone to get me a tracheotomy tray, and put on some gloves and. initiated the procedure.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, have you described everything that you can recollect about your observations of the President before you started to work on him?

Dr. PERRY. There Was no evidence to that cursory examination of any other

wound. I did not move the President. I did not turn him over.

Mr. SPECTER. Why did you not turn him over?

Dr. PERRY. At that point it was necessary to attend to the emergent procedure and a satisfactory effective airway is uppermost in such a condition. If you are unable to obtain an effective airway, then the other procedures are to be of no avail.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, on the subject of turning him over, did you ever turn him over?

Dr. PERRY. I did not.

Mr. SPECTER. Why didn't you turn him over after you had taken the initial action on him?

Dr. PERRY. After the tracheotomy tube was in place and we were breathing for him, Dr. Clark and I had begun external cardiac massage, since we had been unable to detect a heart beat, blood pressure, or pulse. I continued with the cardiac massage while Dr. Clark examined the head wound, and he and Dr. Jenkins conferred in regard to the electrocardiogram. It was determined, that none of the resuscitative measures were effective and the procedures were then abandoned.

I had no further business in the room at that point, and I left the room momentarily. I returned within a minute or so, because I had left my coat

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where I dropped it and asked one of the nurses to hand me my coat, and I left the room and went to the operating suite from there.

Mr. SPECTER. And did that conclude your participation in the treatment of President Kennedy?

Dr. PERRY. It did.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate as to the time you arrived in the Emergency Room ?

Dr. PERRY. I really don't know the time. It was about 12:30 or so when I was eating and the call must have come thereabouts, and I didn't look at my watch at that time, nor did I have an opportunity to look at it again until after I had left the room.

Mr. SPECTER What is your best estimate as to the time which elapsed from the point that you knew it was 12:30, until the time you arrived at the emergency room?

Dr. PERRY. It must have been within the next few minutes. I really don't know. As I say, we were sitting there eating and I had no occasion to look at my watch again. At that time I was much too busy to consult it further

Mr. SPECTER What is your best estimate as to the time you left the emergency room after finishing your treatment and work on the President?

Dr. PERRY. After I left trauma room No. 1, I went outside and washed my hands and then I retrieved my coat and I sat down for a few minutes in a chair there in the emergency room for probably 10 or 15 minutes, I suppose, and then I went from there to the operating suite to assist in the care of the Governor, so I must have left the emergency room probably somewhere around 1:15 or 1:20, I would gather.

Mr. SPECTER At approximately what time was the President pronounced to be dead ?

Dr. PERRY. I don't know this for a fact, other than what was related to me by Dr. Clark, and he tells me that this was at 1 o'clock. Once again, I did not verify the time.

Mr. SPECTER Have you described all of the efforts which were made to revive the President?

Dr. PERRY. There were other procedures done that I did not do during this period. I did not describe in detail the performance of the tracheotomy. It seems that that is really not necessary at this time, unless you want it.

Mr. SPECTER Will you describe it in detail, the procedures which were followed in the efforts to save the President's life?

Dr. PERRY. All right. Well, to regress, then, at the time I began the tracheotomy, I made an incision right through the wound which was present in the neck in order to gain complete control of any injury in the underlying trachea.

I made a transverse incision right through this wound and carried it down to the superficial fascia, to expose the strap muscles overlying the thyroid and the trachea. There was an injury to the right lateral aspect of the trachea at the level of the external wound. The trachea was deviated slightly to the left and it was necessary to divide the strap muscles on the left side in order to gain access to the trachea. At this point, I recall, Dr. Jones right on my left was placing a catheter into a vein in the-left arm because he handed me a necessary instrument which I needed in the performance of the procedure.

The wound in the trachea was then enlarged to admit a cuffed tracheotomy tube to support respiration. I noted that there was free air and blood in the superior right mediastinum.

Although I saw no injury to the lung or to the pleural space, the presence of this free blood and air in this area could be indicative of a wound of the right hemithorax, and I asked that someone put a right chest tube in for seal drainage. At the time I did not know who did this, but I have been informed that Dr. Baxter and Dr. Paul Peters inserted the chest tube and connected it to underwater drainage.

Blood transfusions and fluid transfusions were being given at this time, and through the previous venesections that had been done by Dr. Jones and Dr. Carrico.

Also, the President had received 300 mg. of Solucortef in order to support

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his adrenal glands, since it was common medical knowledge that he suffered from adrenal insufficiency.

Of course, oxygen and pressure breathing were being effected under the guidance of Dr. Jenkins and Dr. Giesecke, who were handling the anesthesia machine at the head of the table.

Dr. Bashour and Dr. Seldin, in addition to Dr. Clark, had arrived and also assisted in monitoring cardiac actions, as indicated by the oscilloscope and the cardiotachioscope.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you now described all of the operative procedures performed on the President?

Dr. PERRY. Yes, all that I am familiar with.

Mr. SPECTER Are there any doctors who participated other than those whom you have already identified in the course of your description ?

Dr. PERRY. Yes, sir; immediately on arriving there, and as I say, Dr. Jones and I, and I saw Dr. Carrico, and I have the impression there was another physician there, but I don't know who it was. I asked that an emergency call be placed for Dr. Kemp Clark, chief of neurosurgery, for Dr. Robert McClelland, and Dr. Charles Baxter, assistant professors of surgery. They responded immediately. I don't know how long it took them to get there, but they were probably there within the next few minutes. My first recollection of Dr. McClelland and Dr. Baxter being there was when I was doing the tracheotomy, they suddenly were there assisting me. I don't know when they came in the room, nor do I know when Dr. Clark or the other gentlemen arrived, and there must have been 10 or 12 doctors all told by then.

Mr. SPECTER. Are there any others whom you could identify?

Dr. PERRY. Dr. Peters---I previously mentioned, Dr. Paul Peters, assistant professor of urology, Dr. Fouad Bashour, associate professor of medicine, and chief of cardiology, and Dr. Don Seldin, chief of medicine.

I mentioned Dr. M. T. Jenkins, chief of anesthesia, and Dr. Giesecke, his assistant professor of anesthesiology---that's the only people that I saw directly.

Mr. SPECTER. Could the first doctor whom you saw have been Dr. Don Curtis?

Dr. PERRY. That's entirely possible---I don't recall.

Mr. SPECTER. Was Dr. Dulany there?

Dr. PERRY. I have initially had the impression that Dr. Dulany was in the room when I came in there, but as I understand it, he actually was just going into the room across the hall, but he was there by the door when I came in, but I had the impression he was leaving that room, but I understand he was not, that actually he was going---just going in the room across the hall with the Governor, although I initially thought Dr. Dulany was there.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe, if anything with respect to bruising in the interior portion of the President's neck?

Dr. PERRY. There was considerable hematoma in the right lateral portion of the neck and the right superior mediastinum, as I noted. As for bruising, per se, it would be difficult to describe that, since by definition, hematoma would be a collection of blood, and there was so much blood that the tissues were discolored. I did not attempt to ascertain trajectory or path of the bullet at the time, but directed myself to obtaining an adequate airway and carried, my examination no further down than it was necessary to assure myself that the trachea was controlled and that there was no large vessel injury at that level.

Mr. SPECTER. Were there sufficient facts available to you for you to reach a conclusion as to the cause of the wound on the front side of the President's neck?

Dr. PERRY. No, sir, there was not. I could not determine whether or how this was inflicted, per se, since it would require tracing the trajectory.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe as to the President's head, specifically?

Dr. PERRY. I saw no injuries other than the one which I noted to you, which was a large avulsive injury of the right occipitoparietal area, but I did not do a minute examination of his head.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you notice a bullet hole below the large avulsed area?

Dr. PERRY. No; I did not.

Mr. SPECTER Dr. Perry, earlier I asked you whether you tuned over the

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President at any time during the course of your treatment or examination of him, and you indicated that you had not, and I then asked you why, and you proceeded to tell me of the things that you did in sequence, as being priority items to try to save his life. Why did you not turn him over at the conclusion of those operative procedures?

Dr. PERRY. Well, actually, I didn't have a specific reason, other than it had been determined that he had expired. There was nothing further that I could do and it was not my particular prerogative to make a minute examination to determine any other cause. I felt that that was a little bit out of my domain.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any occasion to examine the President's clothing to ascertain direction of the missile?

Dr. PERRY. No; I did not. The only aspect of clothing that I know about---I happen to recall pushing up the brace which he had on in an attempt to feel a femoral pulse when I arrived, and I could not, but the shirt had been removed by the personnel there in the emergency room, I assume.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe as to the description of that brace?

Dr. PERRY. I couldn't give you a description. I just saw and felt the lower edge of one, and 1 reached to feel the left femoral pulse.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see whether the President was wearing any sort of an Ace bandage on the midsection of his body when his trousers were taken down?

Dr. PERRY. There was evidence of an Ace bandage I saw it sticking out from the edge on the right side, as I recall. I don't believe it was on the midsection, although it may have been. I believe it was on his right leg--his right thigh.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know whether it was on the left leg and thigh as well?

Dr. PERRY. No, I don't. I just saw that briefly when I was reaching for that pulse and I didn't do any examination at all of the lower trunk or lower extremities.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you personally make any examination by feeling, or in any other way, of the President's back?

Dr. PERRY. I did not.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you participate in a press conference or press conferences following

the death of the President?

Dr. PERRY. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And when was the first of such press conferences?

Dr. PERRY. I don't know the exact time, Mr. Specter. It must have been within the hour, I would say; I don't know exactly.

Mr. SPECTER. And who was present at that press conference by way of identifying, if you can, the members of the news media?

Dr. PERRY. I have no idea. The press conference was held in classrooms 1 and 2 combined here at Parkland. The room was quite full of people. I remember noting. some surprise how quickly they had put in a couple of telephones at the back. There were numerous cameras and lights, and flashbulbs, and I went there with one of the administrators, Mr. Landregan, and Dr. Kemp Clark and Mr. Hawkes, who was identified to me as being with the White House Press. I don't know--there were numerous people of the press.

Mr. SPECTER. What doctors appeared and spoke at that press conference?

Dr. PERRY. Dr. Clark, myself, and Dr. Baxter was also there. He arrived a little bit late. I called him just before I went down and asked him and Dr. McClelland to come. I could not find Dr. McClelland. He apparently was busy with a patient at the time. I recall Dr. Baxter came in after the press conference had begun, but I don't believe he said anything. Dr. Clark and I answered the majority of the questions.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, what questions were asked of you and what responses did you give at that press conference?

Dr. PERRY. Well, there were numerous questions asked, all the questions I cannot remember, of course. Specifically, the thing that seemed to be of most interest at that point was actually trying to get me to speculate as to direction of the bullets, the number of bullets, and the exact cause of death.

The first two questions I could not answer, and my reply to them was that I did not know, if there were one or two bullets, and I could not categorically state about the nature of the neck wound, whether it was an entrance or an

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exit wound, not having examined the President further---I could not comment on any other injuries.

As regards the cause of death, Dr. Clark and I concurred that massive brain trauma with attendant severe hemorrhage was the underlying cause of death, and then there were questions asked in regard to what we did, and I described as I have for you, although not in such detail essentially the resuscitative measures that were taken at that time; namely, the reinfusion of a balanced salt solution of blood, Solucortef, assisting of respiration with oxygen and pressure apparatus, the tracheotomy, and the chest tubes and the monitoring with the cardiotachioscope.

Mr. SPECTER Did you express a view as to what might have happened with respect to the number of bullets?

Dr. PERRY. I was asked by several of the people of the press, initially, if there were one or two or more bullets, and to that, Dr. Clark and I both replied that we could not say. I was then asked if it was conceivable that it could have been caused by one bullet, and I replied in the affirmative, that I did not know, but it was conceivable.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you elaborate on how it could have been caused by one bullet?

Dr. PERRY I was asked if this were one bullet, how would it occur, and I said, "It is conceivable or possible that a bullet could enter and strike the

spinal column and he deviated superiorly to exit from the head."

Mr. SPECTER. And where would that point of entry have been ?

Dr. PERRY. The surmise was made that if the point of entry were in the neck, how would it have happened, and that is the way I would have reconstructed it. Again, this was speculation.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you denominate it clearly as speculation?

Dr. PERRY. I did.

Mr. SPECTER. Or, what could have been as opposed to what your opinion was?

Dr. PERRY. I did. I said this was conceivable this was possible, but again, Dr. Clark and I emphasized again that we did not know whether there was one or two bullets.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you express any view as to whether it might have been

one bullet or two bullets or either, or what?

Dr. PERRY. I said I did not know.

Mr. SPECTER. And were you asked any other questions at that press conference that you can recollect as being important at this time?

Dr. PERRY. Someone did ask us about Mrs. Kennedy, and I recall that I mentioned that I did not speak to her, but that she was very composed and very quiet.

Mr. SPECTER Now, were you a part of any other press conferences?

Dr. PERRY. Yes; I was.

Mr. SPECTER. And when did the next one occur ?

Dr. PERRY. There were several organized press conferences that occurred in the administration suite in the hospital, Mr. Specter, and I don't know the exact times of these. There were several later that afternoon. There were some the following day, on Saturday, also held in the administrator's office, and then there were subsequent conferences in relation to the other incident

that occurred on Sunday with Mr. Oswald. I don't know how many there were.

Mr. SPECTER. Were all these conferences set up by the administration of the hospital ?

Dr. PERRY. They were all conducted here. They weren't necessarily---I wouldn't say---set up by the administration. They were done here at the hospital, with one exception, of which you are aware, that I spoke with you about the gentleman that came to me when I was out of town.

Mr. SPECTER Will you elaborate upon what occurred on that occasion, please?

Dr. PERRY. I had taken the course of complying-with the press insofar as was possible about what I could speak that was common knowledge and which had already been covered at the initial press conference. I had done that in the administrative suite or in the hospital or in the medical school under an organized situation as opposed to doing it, say, at home.

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I left town Monday following the incident on Sunday with Oswald, in order to secure a little bit of rest for myself and my family, and approximately 36 hours later, members of the press had located me and requested an interview, which I granted, denying any photographs and the interview consisted of essentially the same thing that I had given to the previous press conference at the hospital.

Mr. SPECTER. Where was that interview conducted?

Dr. PERRY. That was in McAllen, Tex.

Mr. SPECTER. In the course of all of these press conferences did you say anything other than that which you have already related you said during the course of the first press conference?

Dr. PERRY. That would require a little bit of thought. I don't think in essence I said anything different. Of course, the wording certainly would have been different. I subsequently had a little bit more knowledge about the initial episode attendant of course upon my discussions with the other doctors and the writing out of our statements, knowledge which I did not have initially, which may have made subsequent statements perhaps more accurate as regards to time and people, but in essence, things that I did and things that I said that I did are essentially the same in all of these.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Perry, I now show you a group of papers heretofore identified as Commission Exhibit No. 392, and I turn to two sheets which are dated November 22, 1963, which have the name "Perry" beside the doctor and purport to bear your signature, and the time---1630 hours, 22 November 1963, and I ask you if this is a photostatic copy of the handwritten report which you submitted concerning the attention you gave to the President on the day of the assassination?

Dr. PERRY. Yes; it is.

Mr. SPECTER. Is this your signature appearing on the second sheet?

Dr. PERRY. That is my signature.

Mr. SPECTER. And are the facts set forth herein true and correct?

Dr. PERRY. They are, to the best of my knowledge, correct.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Perry, have contents of the autopsy report conducted at Bethesda Naval Hospital been made available to you?

Dr. PERRY. They have.

Mr. SPECTER. And are the findings in the autopsy report consistent with your observations and conclusions concerning the source and nature of the President's wounds?

Dr. PERRY. Yes; they are. I think there are no discrepancies at all. I did not have that information initially, and as a result was somewhat confused about the nature of the wounds, as I noted--I could not tell whether there was one or two bullets, or from whence they came, but the findings of the autopsy report are quite compatible with those findings which I noted at the time that I saw the President.

Mr. SPECTER. And have you noted in the autopsy report the reference to the presence of a wound on the upper right posterior thorax Just above the upper border of the scapula, being 7 by 4 mm. in oval dimension and being located 14 cm. from the tip of the right acromion process and 14 cm. below the tip of the right mastoid process?

Dr. PERRY. Yes; I saw that.

Mr. SPECTER. Assuming that was a point of entry of a missile, which parenthetically was the opinion of the three autopsy surgeons, and assuming still further that the missile which struck the President at that spot was a 6.5-mm. jacketed bullet shot from a rifle at a distance of 160 to 250 feet, having a muzzle velocity of approximately 2,000 feet per second, and that upon entering the President's body, the bullet traveled between two strap muscles, through a fascia channel, without violating the pleural cavity, striking the trachea, causing the damage which you testified about being on the interior of the President's throat, and exited from the President's throat in the wound which you have described in the midline of his neck, would your findings and observations as to the nature of the wound on the throat be consistent with the set of facts I just presented to you?

Dr. PERRY. It would be entirely compatible.

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Mr. SPECTER. And what is the basis for your conclusion that the situation that I presented to you would be entirely compatible with your observations and findings?

Dr. PERRY. The wound in the throat, although as I noted, I did not examine it minutely, was fairly small in nature, and an undeformed, unexpanded missile exiting at rather high speed would leave very little injury behind, since the majority of its energy was expended after it had left the tissues.

Mr. SPECTER. And would the hole that you observed on the President's throat then be consistent with such an exit

wound?

Dr. PERRY. It would. There is no way to determine from my examination as to exactly how accurately I could depict an entrance wound from an exit wound, without ascertaining the entire trajectory. Such a wound could be produced by such a missile.

Mr. SPECTER. Were any facts on trajectory available to you at the time of the press

conferences that you described.

Dr. PERRY. They were not.

Mr. SPECTER. In response to an earlier question which I asked you, I believe you testified that you did not have sufficient facts available initially to form an opinion as to the source or direction of the cause of the wound, did you not?

Dr. PERRY. That's correct, although several leading questions were directed toward me at the various conferences.

Mr. SPECTER. And to those leading questions you have said here today that you responded that a number of possibilities were present as to what might have happened?

Dr. PERRY. That's correct. I had no way of ascertaining, as I said, the true trajectory. Often questions were directed as to---in such a manner as this: "Doctor, is it possible that if he were in such and such a position and the bullet entered here, could it have done that?" And my reply, "Of course, if it were possible, yes, that is possible, but similarly, it did not have to be so, necessarily."

Mr. SPECTER. So that, from the physical characteristics which you observed in and of themselves, you could not come to any conclusive opinion?

Dr. PERRY. No, sir; I could not, although I have been quoted, I think, as saying, and I might add parenthetically, out of context, without the preceding question which had been directed, as saying that such was the case, when actually, I only admitted that the possibility existed.

Mr. SPECTER. And in the hypothetical of the rather extended nature that I just gave you that your statement that that is consistent with what you found, is that also predicated upon the veracity of the factors, which I have asked you to assume?

Dr. PERRY. That is correct, sir. I have no way to authenticate either by my own knowledge.

Mr. SPECTER. Has your recollection of the nature of the President's neck wound changed at any time from November 22 to the present time?

Dr. PERRY. No, sir. I recall describing it initially as being between 3 and 5 cm. in size and roughly spherical in shape, not unlike a rather large puncture wound, I believe is the word I used initially,

Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever changed your opinion on the possible alternatives as to what could have caused the President's wounds?

Dr. PERRY. No, sir; I have no knowledge even now of my own as to the cause of the wounds. All I can report on is what I saw, and the wound is that as I have described it. It could have been caused conceivably by any number of objects.

Mr. SPECTER. So, that the wound that you saw on the President's neck would be consistent with an exit wound under the factors that I described to you?

Dr. PERRY. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Or, it might be consistent with an entry wound under a different set of factors?

Dr. PERRY. That's correct, sir. I, myself, have no knowledge of that. I do not think that it is consistent, for example, with an exit wound of a large expanded bullet-voluntarily I would add that.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, would a jacketed 6.5-mm. bullet fit the description of a large expanded bullet?

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Dr. PERRY: No, sir; it would not.

Mr. SPECTER. Based on the information in the autopsy report about a 6- by 15-mm. hole in the lower part of the President's skull on the right side in conjunction with the large part of the skull of the President which you observed to be missing, would you have an opinion as to the source of the missile which inflicted those wounds?

Dr. PERRY. Since I did not see the initial wound which you mentioned, the smaller one, and only saw the large avulsive wound of the head and the scalp, there is no way for me to determine from whence it came.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, if you assume the presence of the first small wound, taking as a fact that there was such a wound, now, would that present sufficient information for you to formulate an opinion as to source or trajectory?

Dr. PERRY. Well, I couldn't testify as to exact source, but if the wound, the smaller wound that you noted were present, it could certainly result in the large avulsive wound as it exited from the skull. As to the ultimate source, there would still be no way for me to tell.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, could you tell sufficient to comment on whether it came from the front or back of the President?

Dr. PERRY. In the absence of other wounds of the head, the presence of the small wound which you described, in addition to the large avulsive wound of the skull and the scalp which I observed would certainly indicate that the two were related and would indicate both an entrance and an exit wound, if there were no other wounds.

Mr. SPECTER. And which would be the wound of entrance, then?

Dr. PERRY. The smaller wound--the smaller wound.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, did you have occasion to talk via the telephone with Dr . James J. Humes of the Bethesda Naval Hospital?

Dr. PERRY. I did.

Mr. SPECTER. And will you relate the circumstances of the calls indicating first the time when they occurred.

Dr. PERRY. Dr. Humes called me twice on Friday afternoon, separated by about 30-minute intervals, as I recall. The first one, I, somehow think I recall the first one must have been around 1500 hours, but I'm not real sure about that; I'm not positive of that at all, actually.

Mr. SPECTER. Could it have been Saturday morning?

Dr. PERRY. Saturday morning--was it? It's possible. I remember talking with him twice. I was thinking it was shortly thereafter.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, the record will show.

Dr. PERRY. Oh, sure, it was Saturday morning--yes.

Mr. SPECTER. What made you change your view of that?

Dr. PERRY. You mean Friday?

Mr. SPECTER. Did some specific recollection occur to you which changed your view from Friday to Saturday?

Dr. PERRY. No, I was trying to place where I was at that time---Friday afternoon, and at that particular time, when I paused to think about it, I was actually up in the operating suite at that time, when I thought that he called initially. I seem to remember it being Friday, for some reason.

Mr. SPECTER: Where were you when you received those calls?

Dr. PERRY. I was in the Administrator's office here when he called.

Mr. SPECTER. And what did he ask you, if anything?

Dr. PERRY. He inquired about, initially, about the reasons for my doing a tracheotomy, and I replied, as I have to you, during this procedure, that there was a wound in the lower anterior third of the neck, which was exuding blood and was indicative of a possible tracheal injury underlying, and I did the tracheotomy through a transverse incision made through that wound, and I described to him' the right lateral injury to the trachea and the completion of the operation.

He subsequently called back--at that time he told me, of course, that he could not talk to me about any of it and asked that I keep it in confidence, which I did, and he subsequently called back and inquired about the chest tubes, and why they were placed and I replied in part as I have here. It was somewhat more detailed. After having talked to Drs. Baxter and Peters and I identified them

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as having placed it in the second interspace, anteriorly, in the midclavicular line, in the right hemithorax, he asked me at that time if we had made any wounds in the back. I told him that I had not examined the back nor had I knowledge of any wounds of the back.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you relate the circumstances surrounding an article which appeared about you in the Saturday Evening Post, Dr. Perry?

Dr. PERRY. The Saturday Evening Post contacted the department of surgery here, and talked with Dr. Tom Shires, chief of surgical services, in regard to a possible article on the treatment of the President. This was declined by us, and we requested that no such article be printed, and Dr. Shires informed me shortly thereafter about this conversation. Subsequently, an article was printed, which apparently was a copyrighted item. It first appeared in the New York Herald Tribune. It contained my picture and a picture of trauma room No. 1, and described the incidents surrounding the treatment of the President. Some of that information was obtained by personal interview of myself and Dr. Shires on Saturday morning, and I assume that the rest of it was obtained from various people here.

Mr. SPECTER. Was the content of that story accurate?

Dr. PERRY. There were certain inaccuracies--the overall content was fairly consistent--there were inaccuracies in identification of participants and there were some inaccuracies in regards to conversations purported to have been held, and I do not, however, have knowledge about some of the other references made in the article, since they were apparently based on interviews with people other than myself.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Perry, have you talked to any representatives of the Federal Government about this matter prior to today?

Dr. PERRY. Yes, I have.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you relate whom you have talked to and on what occasions? As best you can recollect it.

Dr. PERRY. Well, I talked to several people, and I regret that I did not keep a record of it, and I find at this time that a lot of these things such as Dr. Humes' call, I suppose I should have kept a little better record, since everything was so kaleidoscopic that I have a very difficult time putting the proper sequence on it. I talked to several people who identified themselves both by name and with credentials as being affiliated with the Secret Service.

Mr. SPECTER. On how many occasions have you talked with Secret Service personnel?

Dr. PERRY. At least three times, sir. Now, I can't give you the exact dates of these, and unfortunately the last two gentlemen, I can't even remember their names now.

Mr. SPECTER. How about the first gentleman?

Dr. PERRY. No, his either. I was trying to think of the last two. I indicated that they both had the same last name, but at the present time it escapes me.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you tell them in essence?

Dr. PERRY. Essentially what I have told you in regard to my impressions and my care of the President.

Mr. SPECTER. Has there ever been any variation in the information which you have given the Federal investigators?

Dr. PERRY. No, sir; not in essence. There may have been a variation in wording or sequence of my presentation, but the treatment as I outlined it to you and as I outlined it to them, to the best of my knowledge, has been essentially consistent.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you talked to any other representatives of the Federal Government besides the Secret Service men?

Dr. PERRY. I talked to two gentlemen initially within--who identified them-

selves as being with the Federal Bureau of Investigation. I do not recall their names either.

Mr. SPECTER. What did they ask you about?

Dr. PERRY. Essentially the same questions in regard to what I might speculate as to the origin of the missiles and their trajectory, and I replied to them as I have to you that I could not ascertain this of my own knowledge, and described the wounds to the extent I saw them.

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Mr. SPECTER. Have you set forth here today the same information which you gave to the FBI?

Dr. PERRY. Yes, I think this is considerably in more detail, being essentially the same thing.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you now told me about all of the talks you have had with representatives of the Federal Government prior to today?

Dr. PERRY. I think I have.

Mr. SPECTER. And did you and I sit down and talk about the purpose of this deposition and the questions which I would be asking you on the record, before this deposition started?

Dr. PERRY. Yes; we did.

Mr. SPECTER. And did you give me the same information which you provided on the record here today?

Dr. PERRY. I have.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add which you think might be helpful in any way to the President's Commission?

Dr. PERRY. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Perry, we appreciate your coming for your deposition today, and I have given you a letter requesting your presence in Washington on Monday morning at 9 o'clock and I would ask you, for the record, to acknowledge receipt of letter, if you will, please.

Dr. PERRY. Yes; I have the letter here and I will be there.

Mr. SPECTER. Thank you, very much, sir. Let me ask you one more question, Dr. Perry, for the record, before we terminate this deposition. What experience have you had, if any, with gunshot wounds?

Dr. PERRY. I think in the course of my training here at Parkland, which is a city-county hospital and handles the great majority of the trauma cases that occur in Dallas County, that I have seen a fairly considerable number of traumatic wounds caused by knives, automobile accidents, gunshot wounds of various types.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you had any experience with gunshot wounds, in addition to that obtained here at Parkland?

Dr. PERRY. You mean, in the service?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes, sir.

Dr. PERRY. No, I had occasion to see only one gunshot wound while I was in the service.

Mr. SPECTER. Can you estimate how many gunshot wounds you have seen while you have been at Parkland?

Dr. PERRY. Probably it would be numbered in the hundreds.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you had any formal training in ballistics?

Dr. PERRY. No, other than the fact that I do some hunting and amateur hand loader.

Mr. SPECTER. Amateur what?

Dr. PERRY. Amateur hand loader--hand load ammunition.

Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much.

Dr. PERRY. All right. Thank you.

DR. PETERS Volume VI

TESTIMONY OF DR. PAUL CONRAD PETERS

The testimony of Dr. Paul Conrad Peters was taken at 4 p.m., on March 24, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that Dr. Paul Peters is present, having responded to a request to have his deposition taken in connection with the investigation of the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy, which is investigating all aspects of the assassination, including the medical treatment of President Kennedy at Parkland Memorial Hospital, and for the latter sequence of events we have asked Dr. Peters to appear and testify what he knows, if anything, concerning that medical attention.

With that statement of purpose in calling you, Dr. Peters, may I ask you to rise and raise your right hand?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give before the President's Commission in this deposition proceeding will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Dr. PETERS. I do.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, will you state your full name for the record, please?

Dr. PETERS. Paul Conrad Peters.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is your profession, sir?

Dr. PETERS. Doctor of medicine.

Mr. SPECTER. And will you outline for me briefly your educational background?

Dr. PETERS. I went to college at Indiana University in Bloomington, Ind., and received an A.B. degree from Indiana University in 1950, and received an M.D. degree from Indiana University in 1953. I took my internship at the Philadelphia General Hospital, 1953 and 1954. I took my residency in Urological Surgery at Indiana University from 1954 to 1957, and from 1957 to 1963 I was chief of Urology at U.S.A.F. Hospital, Carswell, which is the largest hospital in SAC, and I was regional consultant to the surgeon general in Urological surgery. Since July 1963, I have been assistant professor of Urology at Southwestern Medical School.

Mr. SPECTER. And are you board certified, Dr. Peters ?

Dr. PETERS. I am certified by the American Board of Urology--1960.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to render medical services to President John Kennedy on November 22, 1963?

Dr. PETERS. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And would you outline briefly the circumstances relating to your arriving on the scene where he was?

Dr. PETERS. As I just gave you a while ago ?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes.

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Dr. PETERS. I was in the adjacent portion of the hospital preparing material for a lecture to the medical students and residents later in the day, when I heard over the radio that the President had been shot and there was a great deal of confusion at the time and the extent of his injuries was not immediately broadcast over the radio, and I thought, because of the description of the location of the tragedy he would probably, be brought to Parkland for care, and so I went to the emergency room to see if I could render assistance.

Mr. SPECTER. And at about what time did you arrive at the emergency room?

Dr. PETERS. Well, could I ask a question or two?

Mr. SPECTER. Sure.

Dr. PETERS. As I recall, he was shot about 12:35 our time; is that correct?

Mr. SPECTER. I believe that's been fixed most precisely at 12:30, Dr. Peters.

Dr. PETERS. So, I would estimate it was probably about 12:50 when I got there, I really don't know for certain.

Mr. SPECTER. Whom did you find present, if anyone, when you arrived?

Dr. PETERS. When I arrived the following people I noted were present in the room : Dr. Perry, Baxter, Ron Jones, and McClelland. The first thing I noticed, of course, was that President Kennedy was on the stretcher and that his feet were slightly elevated. He appeared to be placed in a position in which we usually treat a patient who is in shock, and I noticed that Dr. Perry and Dr. Baxter were present and that they were working on his throat. I also noticed that Dr. Ron Jones was present in the room. I took off my coat and asked what I could do to help, and then saw it was President Kennedy. I really didn't know it was President Kennedy until that time. Dr. Perry was there and he and Dr. Baxter were doing the tracheotomy and we asked for a set of tracheotomy tubes to try and, get one of the appropriate size. I then helped Dr. Baxter assemble the tracheotomy tube which he inserted into the tracheotomy wound that he and Dr. Perry had created.

Mr. SPECTER. Were there any others present at that time, before you go on as to what aid you rendered?

Dr. PETERS. I believe Dr. Carrico--

Mr. SPECTER. Any other doctors present?

Dr. PETERS. And Dr. Jenkins was present.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you now covered all of those who were present at that time?

Dr. PETERS. And Dr. Shaw walked into the room and left--for a moment--but he didn't stay. He just sort of glanced at the President and went across the hall. Mrs. Kennedy was in the corner with someone who identified himself as the personal physician of the President--I don't remember his name.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Burkley ?

Dr. PETERS. I don't know his name. That's just who he said he was, because he was asking that the President be given some steroids, which was done.

Mr. SPECTER. He requested that.

Dr. PETERS. That's right, he said he should have some steroids because he was an Addisonian.

Mr. SPECTER. What do you mean by that in lay language?

Dr. PETERS. Well, Addison's disease is a disease of the adrenal cortex which is characterized by a deficiency in the elaboration of certain hormones that allow an individual to respond to stress and these hormones are necessary for life, and if they cannot be replaced, the individual may succumb.

Mr. SPECTER. And Dr. Burkley, or whoever was the President's personal physician, made a request that you treat him as an Addisonian?

Dr. PETERS. That's right--he recommended that he be given steroids because he was an Addisonian--that's what he said.

Mr. SPECTER. Were there any nurses present at that time?

Dr. PETERS. I don't remember a nurse being in the room all the time, but they were coming in and out.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you identified all the people who were present to the best of your recollection ?

Dr. PETERS. Did I mention Dr. Robert McClelland, he was also there.

Mr. SPECTER Was Dr. Dulany there?

Dr. PETERS. I don't remember him, he may have been

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Mr. SPECTER. Who else was there, if anyone, that you can recall, or have you now given me everyone you can recall ?

Dr. PETERS. Well, I am giving you my impression of the situation as I walked in and those are the ones I remember right now. Dr. Kemp Clark also came in during the maneuvering.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, who else came in during the course of the operative procedures ?

Dr. PETERS. The anesthesiologists, Drs. Jenkins and Gene Akin, I believe, came in.

Mr. SPECTER. Did anyone else come

Dr. PETERS. I am not certain of anyone else.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, tell us what aid was rendered to President Kennedy.

Dr. PETERS. Dr. Perry and Dr. Baxter were doing the tracheotomy and a set of tracheotomy tubes was obtained and the appropriate size was determined and I gave it to Baxter, who helped Perry put it into the wound, and Perry noted also that there appeared to be a bubbling sensation in the chest and recommended that chest tubes be put in. Dr. Ron Jones put a chest tube in on the left side and Dr. Baxter and I put it in on the right side I made the incision in the President's chest, and I noted that there was no bleeding from the wound.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you put that chest tube all the way in on the right side?

Dr. PETERS. That's our presumption--yes.

Mr. SPECTER And what else was done for the President?

Dr. PETERS. About the same time there was a question of whether he really had an adequate pulse, and so Dr. Ronald Jones and I pulled his pants down and noticed that he was wearing his brace which had received a lot of publicity in the lay press, and also that he had an elastic bandage wrapped around his pelvis at--in a sort of a figure eight fashion, so as to encompass both thighs and the lower trunk.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the purpose of that bandage?

Dr. PETERS. I presume that it was--my thoughts at the time were that he probably had been having pelvic pain and had put this on as an additional support to stabilize his lower pelvis. It seemed quite interesting to me that the President of the United States had on an ordinary $3 Ace bandage probably in an effort to stabilize his pelvis. I suppose he had been having some back pain and that was my thought at the time, but we removed this bandage in an effort to feel a femoral, pulse. We were never certain that we got a good pulse.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you describe in as much detail as you can the type of brace he was wearing?

Dr. PETERS. Well, it appeared similar to a corset.

Mr. SPECTER How thick was it?

Dr. PETERS. I would estimate it was one-eighth of an inch.

Mr. SPECTER. An eighth of an inch thick?

Dr. PETERS. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And how high was it?

Dr. PETERS. Well, it completely encompassed his midsection.

Mr. SPECTER It encompassed his midsection?

Dr. PETERS. His circumference--yes--and it was probably, I would guess about 8 to 11 inches.

Mr. SPECTER. In width?

Dr. PETERS. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Running in his waist area at the top of his hips up to the lower part of his chest?

Dr. PETERS. I would estimate that it went from the lower part of his chest to the pelvic girdle. About this time it was noted also that he had no effective heart action, and Dr. Perry asked whether he should open the chest and massage the heart. In the meantime, of course, the tracheotomy had been done and completed and had been hooked on to apparatus for assisting his respiration.

Mr. SPECTER. And what action, if any, was taken on the open-heart massage?

Dr. PETERS. It was pointed out that an examination of the brain had been done. Dr. Jenkins had observed the brain and Dr. Clark had observed the brain and it was pointed out to Dr. Perry that it appeared to be a mortal wound, and

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involving the brain, and that open-heart massage would probably not add anything to what had already been done, and that external cardiac massage is known to be as efficient as direct massage of the heart itself.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there any further treatment rendered to the President?

Dr. PETERS. Yes, Dr. Perry began immediate external compression of the chest in an effort to massage the heart, even before he asked the question as to whether the thoracotomy should be done. As soon as there was a question as to whether there was a pulse or not, he immediately began external chest compression.

Mr. SPECTER. What other action was taken to aid the President, if any ?

Dr. PETERS. Well, cut downs were done on the extremities, and tubes were inserted in the veins, and I know on the right ankle anteriorly, and I believe in the left arm and also in the left leg, in order to administer fluid and blood which he did receive.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you now described all of the medical attention given the President?

Dr. PETERS. Well, I believe I have.

Mr. SPECTER. And was the President subsequently pronounced dead?

Dr. PETERS. That's correct.

Mr. SPECTER. And about what time was that pronouncement made?

Dr. PETERS. I could not give you the time within 5 or 10 minutes--I can tell you this much, though, I know what actually did happen.

Mr. SPECTER. Tell me that.

Dr. PETERS. I was--we pronounced him dead and I was in the room, present while the priest gave him the last rites, during which time there was Dr. Jenkins and Dr. Baxter and Dr. McClelland, Mrs. Kennedy, the priest, and myself. Dr. Perry had left, as had most of the others by that time.

Mr. SPECTER. Why did you remain?

Dr. PETERS. Well, I just hadn't gotten out of the door when the priest first came in and Dr. Jenkins asked everyone to leave except those people I have just named.

Mr. SPECTER. Why did he exclude those from the group which were to leave?

Dr. PETERS. Well, I think they were nurses, and several other people he thought just best not remain and I'm sure that there was no intention to personally exclude anyone behind his request. He just sort of looked around and saw who appeared to be there and asked the others to leave.

Mr. SPECTER What did you observe as to the nature of the President's wound?

Dr. PETERS. Well, as I mentioned, the neck wound had already been interfered with by the tracheotomy at the time I got there, but I noticed the head wound, and as I remember--I noticed that there was a large defect in the occiput.

Mr. SPECTER What did you notice in the occiput?

Dr. PETERS. It seemed to me that in the right occipitalparietal area that there was a large defect. There appeared to be bone loss and brain loss in the area.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you notice any holes below the occiput, say, in this area below here?

Dr. PETERS. No, I did not and at the time and the moments immediately following the injury, we speculated as to whether he had been shot once or twice because we saw the wound of entry in the throat and noted the large occipital wound, and it is a known fact that high velocity missiles often have a small wound of entrance and a large wound of exit, and I'm just giving you my honest impressions at the time.

Mr. SPECTER. What were they?

Dr. PETERS. Well, I wondered whether or not he had been shot once or twice that was my question at the time.

Mr. SPECTER. When you say "we speculate," whom do you mean by that?

Dr. PETERS. Well, the doctors in attendance there.

Mr. SPECTER. Any doctor specifically?

Dr. PETERS. I wouldn't mention anyone specifically, we all discussed it. I did not know whether or not he had been shot once or twice.

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Mr. SPECTER. Did you have an opportunity to observe the wound on his neck prior to the time the tracheotomy was performed?

Dr. PETERS. No, I did not. The tracheotomy was already being done by Dr. Baxter and Dr. Perry when I got in the room. I did not see the wound on his neck.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you make any written reports on the treatment of President Kennedy?

Dr. PETERS. No, I did not; no one asked me to.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you prepare any notes of any sort, or do you have any notes of any sort?

Dr. PETERS. No; I do not.

Mr. SPECTER What was the cause of death in your opinion?

Dr. PETERS. I would assume that it was irreversible damage to the centers in the brain which control the heart and respiration.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you talked to any representatives of the Federal Government about this matter prior to today?

Dr. PETERS. No; I have not.

Mr. SPECTER. And prior to the time the court reporter came in, did you and I have a brief discussion as to the nature of this deposition and the questions that I would ask you?

Dr. PETERS. No; I was not informed as to any specific questions. I knew the general nature of the testimony which I would give.

Mr. SPECTER From the discussion?

Dr. PETERS. From the letter I had received from the counsel signed by Mr. Rankin.

Mr. SPECTER. And did you and I have a brief conversation here in this room today before the court reporter came in?

Dr. PETERS. Yes; we did.

Mr. SPECTER Do you have anything to add which you think might he of assistance to the President's Commission in its investigation?

Dr. PETERS. I do not--regarding the immediate condition of the President.

Mr. SPECTER Thank you very much for coming, Dr. Peters, we are very much obliged to you.

Dr. PETERS. Thank you.

Dr. Adolph Hartung Giesecke, Jr.

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TESTIMONY OF DR. ADOLPH HARTUNG GIESECKE, JR.

Dr. Ronald Jones (1^st on scene Video)

Volume VI

TESTIMONY OF DR. RONALD COY JONES

The testimony of Dr. Ronald Coy Jones was taken at 10:20 a.m., on March 24, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

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Mr. SPECTER. May the record show at this point that Dr. Ronald Jones has arrived in response to a letter of request to give his deposition for the President's Commission on the assassination of President Kennedy.

Dr. Jones, the purpose of the President's Commission is to investigate all the facts relating to the shooting and subsequent medical treatment of President Kennedy and we have asked you to appear to testify concerning your knowledge of that treatment.

With that statement of purpose, will you stand up and raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you give before the President's Commission during the course of this deposition proceeding will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Dr. JONES. I do.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you state your full name for the record, please?

Dr. JONES. Ronald Coy Jones.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your profession, sir?

Dr. JONES. General Surgery--resident physician.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you duly licensed by the State of Texas to practice medicine?

Dr. JONES. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you outline briefly your educational background?

Dr. JONES. I graduated--I went to undergraduate school at the University of Arkansas from 1950 to 1953, in pre-med. From 1953 through 1957, I went to medical school and graduated from the University of Tennessee in Memphis, and in 1957 through 1958 I took an internship in Los Angeles County General Hospital.

From there I went to the University of Oklahoma and took a 2-year general practice residency, 1 year, the first year, entailing a year of internal medicine and its subspecialties, and a second year of surgery and its subspecialties, which was approved by the American Board of Surgeons for 1 year of surgical training, and from 1960 until the present time I have taken an additional 4 years of general surgery at Parkland, and have served as Chief Resident of Surgery.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to aid in the medical treatment of President Kennedy on November 22, 1963 ?

Dr. JONES. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you relate briefly the circumstances surrounding your being called into the case ?

Dr. JONES. I was eating lunch with Dr. Perry and I heard the operator page Dr. Tom Shires of the staff on two occasions, and the second time I answered the phone and the operator told me that the President had been shot and was being brought to the emergency room.

I turned around and immediately notified Miss Audrey Bell, who is the operating room supervisor so that any arrangements could be made for immediate surgery, and Dr. M. T. Jenkins, who is the Chief of the Anesthesiology Department. From there I went across the room and notified Dr. Perry of the shooting and we both went together to the emergency room, and it was at that time we arrived shortly after the President had been brought in.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate as to the time you arrived at the emergency room ?

Dr. JONES. It was, I would say, around 23 or 25 minutes until 1.

Mr. SPECTER. And who was present, if anyone, at the time you arrived ?

Dr. JONES. Dr. James Carrico, and possibly Dr. Richard Dulany, and I'm not sure that he was there or was there for just a few minutes after we arrived. I do recall seeing him there as one of the first ones.

Mr. SPECTER. Was any nurse present at that time?

Dr. JONES. The head nurse in the emergency room was present and--

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know her name ?

Dr. JONES. It's left my mind right now-- I know her.

Mr. SPECTER. Could that be Miss Henchliffe?

Dr. JONES. She was there, I believe.

Mr. SPECTER. Mrs. Bowron ?

Dr. JONES. No--just the--

Mr. SPECTER. Mrs. Nelson?

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Dr. JONES. Nelson.

Mr. SPECTER. Was anyone else present then, other than those whom you have already mentioned at the time you arrived?

Dr. JONES. There were three nurses there--Mrs. Nelson, Miss Henchliffe and Miss Bowron.

Mr. SPECTER. And were any other doctors present when you arrived?

Dr. JONES. Dr. Carrico was the only doctor other than possibly Dr. Dulany, and I do know Dr. Carrico was there when I arrived.

Mr. SPECTER. Was Dr. Don Curtis there when you arrived?

Dr. JONES. I didn't see him.

Mr. SPECTER. And who arrived with you, if you recall?

Dr. JONES. Dr. Perry.

Mr. SPECTER. And what did you observe the President's condition to be upon your arrival?

Dr. JONES. He appeared to be terminal, if not already expired, and Dr. Carrico said that he had seen some attempted respirations, agonal respirations, and with that history, we went ahead with emergency measures to try to restore the airway.

Mr. SPECTER. When you say "attempted agonal respiration," do you mean an effort by the President?

Dr. JONES. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Or, an effort by someone else to induce respiration?

Dr. JONES. No, these apparently were as Dr. Carrico saw the President was attempting to respire on his own, however, I did not personally see this in the brief seconds that I stood there before I went ahead and started work.

Mr. SPECTER. What is the lay definition for agonal respiration ?

Dr. JONES. These are the respirations that are somewhat of a strain, that is, seen in a patient who is expiring--just very short, irregular type respirations.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you continue now to describe what you observed to be the President's condition?

Dr. JONES. We felt that he was in extreme shock, merely by the fact that there was no motion, that he was somewhat cyanotic, his eyes were--appeared to be fixed; there was no evidence of motion of the eyes; and we noticed that he did not have a satisfactory airway or was not breathing on his own in a satisfactory way to sustain life so that we felt that either an endotracheal tube had to be instituted immediately, which was done by Dr. Carrico. We felt that this was not adequate and since tracheotomy equipment was in the room, we felt that he would profit more by tracheotomy and that we could be certain that he was getting adequate oxygen.

Mr. SPECTER. What was done with respect to applying oxygen to the President then ?

Dr. JONES. Well, a tracheotomy was done, and then an adapter was fitted to this tube, and we had an anesthesia machine there by this time with Dr. Jenkins available so that he could give him straight oxygen from the machine.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe anything else with respect to the President's condition at that time?

Dr. JONES. You mean as far as wounds--that he had?

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any wounds ?

Dr. JONES. As we saw him the first time, we noticed that he had a small wound at the midline of the neck, just above the superasternal notch, and this was probably no greater than a quarter of an inch in greatest diameter, and that he had a large wound in the right posterior side of the head.

Mr. SPECTER. When you say "we noticed," whom do you mean by that?

Dr. JONES. Well, Dr. Perry and I were the two that were there at this time observing.

Mr. SPECTER. Did Dr. Perry make any comment about the nature of the wound at that time? Either wound?

Dr. JONES. Not that I recall.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe as precisely as you can the nature of the head wound?

Dr. JONES. There was large defect in the back side of the head as the President lay on the cart with what appeared to be some brain hanging out of this

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wound with multiple pieces of skull noted next with the brain and with a tremendous amount of clot and blood.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe as precisely as you can the wound that you observed in the throat?

Dr. JONES. The wound in the throat was probably no larger than a quarter of an inch in diameter. There appeared to be no powder burn present, although this could have been masked by the amount of blood that was on the head and neck, although there was no obvious, amount of powder present. There appeared to be a very minimal amount of disruption of interruption of the surrounding skin. There appeared to be relatively smooth edges around the wound, and if this occurred as a result of a missile, you would have probably thought it was a missile of very low velocity and probably could have been compatible with a bone fragment of either--probably exiting from the neck, but it was a very small, smooth wound.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you notice any lump in the throat area?

Dr. JONES. No; I didn't.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there any blood on the throat area in the vicinity of the wound which you have described of the throat?

Dr. JONES. Not a great deal of blood, as if in relation to the amount that was around the head--not too much.

Mr. SPECTER. What further action was taken by the medical team in addition to that which you have described on the tracheotomy?

Dr. JONES: Well, as Dr. Perry started the tracheotomy, I started the cut down in the left arm to insert a large polyethylene catheter, to give an I.V. so that we could give I.V. solutions as well as blood, and at the same time another doctor or two were doing some cutdowns in the lower extremities around the ankle. We made the cutdown in the left arm in the cephalic vein very rapidly and I.V. fluids were started immediately and as I was doing this, Dr. Perry was performing the tracheotomy, and it was about this time that Dr. Baxter came in and went ahead to assist Dr. Perry with the tracheotomy, and as they made a deeper incision in the neck to isolate the trachea, they thought they saw some gush of air and the possibility of a pneumothorax on one side or the other was entertained, and since I was to the left of the President, I went ahead and put in the anterior chest tube in the second intercostal space.

Mr. SPECTER. Was that tube fully inserted, Doctor?

Dr. JONES. I felt that the tube was fully inserted, and this was immediately connected to underwater drainage.

Mr. SPECTER. What do you mean by "connected to underwater drainage", Dr. Jones?

Dr. JONES. The tube is connected to a bottle whereby it aerates in the chest from a pneumothorax and as the patient breathes, the air is forced out under the water and produces somewhat of a suction so that the lung will reexpand and will not stay collapsed and this will give adequate aeration to the body, and we decided to go ahead and put in a chest tube on the opposite side; since I could not reach the opposite side due to the number of people that were working on the President. Dr. Baxter was over there helping Dr. Perry on that side, as well as Dr. Paul Peters, the assistant head of urology here, and the three of us then inserted the chest tube on the right side, primarily done by Dr. Baxter and Dr. Peters on the right side.

Mr. SPECTER. Then what other treatment, if any, was afforded President Kennedy?

Dr. JONES. After the tracheotomy was done, the intravenous fluid blood was started--I believe that the President was also administered some hydrocortisone because of his history of adrenal insufficiency, and at this time an electrocardiogram had been connected and it showed no evidence of a heartbeat. Closed cardiac massage was then first begun by Dr. Perry and then I believe that after about 5 minutes no significant or no myocardial activity was present and he was pronounced dead.

Mr. SPECTER. What history did you refer to of President Kennedy's adrenal insufficiency ?

Dr. JONES. As I recall, there had been in news that the President had several years ago been on some type of steroid therapy and that he possibly had

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Addison's disease. We had no documented evidence that he did or did not, but caution was taken nonetheless in case his insufficiency was of severe enough nature, because at the time of severe trauma a patient with adrenal insufficiency often goes into a rapid degree of adrenal insufficiency and can expire from lack of steroids being produced from the adrenal gland in such a stressed situation.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you obtain that history from Mrs. Kennedy, or any other person on the scene?

Dr. JONES. No.

Mr. SPECTER. You just relied upon what had been occurring in the news?

Dr. JONES. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. What would that reaction cause, if anything, if the President had no adrenal insufficiency?

Dr. JONES. This would not cause severe effects on any organ at all if the adrenal gland were producing enough steroids.

Mr. SPECTER. Did any other doctors arrive during the time this treatment was going on, other than those whom you have already mentioned?

Dr. JONES. Several doctors did subsequently appear in the room--Dr. McClelland appeared shortly after Dr. Baxter, within a matter of just a very few minutes, as well as Dr. Kemp Clark, who is head of neurosurgery here.

Mr. SPECTER. Any other doctors?

Dr. JONES. Dr. Jenkins was there and I think these are primarily the ones that actually had any part, as far as taking care of the President, although there were some other doctors in the room.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Jones, I now hand you a report which purports to bear your signature, labeled "Summary of treatment of the President," dated November 23, 1963, which I shall now ask the Court Reporter to mark as Dr. Jones' Exhibit No. 1.

(Instrument mentioned marked by the Reporter as Dr. Jones' Exhibit No. 1, for identification.)

Mr. SPECTER. I ask you if this in fact is your signature ?

Dr. JONES. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And I ask you if this was the report which you submitted concerning your participation of the treatment of President Kennedy?

Dr. JONES. Yes; it was.

Mr. SPECTER. In this report, Dr. Jones, you state the following, "Previously described severe skull and brain injury was noted as well as a small hole in anterior midline of the neck thought to be a bullet entrance wound. What led you to the thought that it was a bullet entrance wound, sir?

Dr. JONES. The hole was very small and relatively clean cut, as you would see in a bullet that is entering rather than exiting from a patient. If this were an exit wound, you would think that it exited at a very low velocity to produce no more damage than this had done, and if this were a missile of high velocity, you would expect more of an explosive type of exit wound, with more tissue destruction than this appeared to have on superficial examination.

Mr. SPECTER. Would it be consistent, then, with an exit wound, but of low velocity, as you put it?

Dr. JONES. Yes; of very low velocity to the point that you might think that this bullet barely made it through the soft tissues and just enough to drop out of the skin on the opposite side.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your experience, Doctor, if any, in the treatment of bullet wounds?

Dr. JONES. During our residency here we have approximately 1 complete year out of the 4 years on the trauma service here, and this is in addition to the 2 months that we spend every other day and every other night in the emergency room during our first year, so that we see a tremendous number of bullet wounds here in that length of time, sometimes as many as four and five a night.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever had any formal training in bullet wounds?

Dr. JONES. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever had occasion to observe a bullet wound which was inflicted by a missile at approximate size of a 6.5 ram. bullet which passed

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through the body of a person and exited from a neck without striking anything but soft tissue from the back through the neck, where the missile came from a weapon of the muzzle velocity of 2,000 feet per second, and the victim was in the vicinity of 160 to 250 feet from the weapon?

Dr. JONES. No; I have not seen a missile of this velocity exit in the anterior portion of the neck. I have seen it in other places of the body, but not in the neck.

Mr. SPECTER. What other places in the body have you seen it, Dr. Jones?

Dr. JONES. I have seen it in the extremity and here it produces a massive amount of soft tissue destruction.

Mr. SPECTER. Is that in the situation of struck bone or not struck bone or what?

Dr. JONES. Probably where it has struck bone.

Mr. SPECTER. In a situation where it strikes bone, however, the bone becomes so to speak a secondary missile, does it not, in accentuating the soft tissue damage?

Dr. JONES. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Jones, did you have any speculative thought as to accounting for the point of wounds which you observed on the President, as you thought about it when you were treating the President that day, or shortly thereafter?

Dr. JONES. With no history as to the number of times that the President had been shot or knowing the direction from which he had been shot, and seeing the wound in the midline of the neck, and what appeared to be an exit wound in the posterior portion of the skull, the only speculation that I could have as far as to how this could occur with a single wound would be that would enter the anterior neck and possibly strike a vertebral body and then change its course and exit in the region of the posterior portion of the head. However, this was--there was some doubt that a missile that appeared to be of this high velocity would suddenly change its course by striking, but at the present-at that time, if I accounted for it on the basis of one shot, that would have been the way I accounted for it.

Mr. SPECTER. And would that account take into consideration the extensive damage done to the top of the President's head ?

Dr. JONES. If this were the course of the missile, it probably--possibly could have accounted for it, although I would possibly expect it to do a tremendous amount of damage to the vertebral column that it hit and if this were a high velocity missile would also think that the entrance wound would probably be larger than the one that was present at the time we saw

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe whether or not there was any damage to the vertebral column ?

Dr. JONES. No, we could not see this.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you discuss this theory with any other doctor or doctors?

Dr. JONES. Yes; this was discussed after the assassination.

Mr. SPECTER. With whom ?

Dr. JONES. With Dr. Perry--is the only one that I recall specifically, and that was merely as to how many times the President was shot, because even immediately after death, within a matter of 30 minutes, the possibility of a second gunshot wound was entertained and that possibly he had been shot more than once.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any wound on the President's back?

Dr. JONES. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Was the President ever turned over?

Dr. JONES. Not while I was in the room.

Mr. SPECTER. What was he on when you first saw him?

Dr. JONES. He was on an emergency room cart, which is on wheels and can be changed to varying heights and also varying positions, as far as elevating the head or elevating the feet, lowering the head and so forth.

Mr. SPECTER. Was he ever taken off that cart from the time he was brought into the emergency room to the time he was pronounced to be dead?

Dr. JONES. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Doctor, are you working toward board certification at this time?

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Dr. JONES. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is your status on your progress with that, generally?

Dr. JONES. I will finish my formal training in surgery in July of this year, which will complete 5 years of general surgery residency.

Mr. SPECTER. How old are you at the present time, Dr. Jones?

Dr. JONES. Thirty-one.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you discussed this matter with any representatives of the Federal Government prior to today ?

Dr. JONES. Yes, I believe the Secret Service has been here on at least two occasions.

Mr. SPECTER. And what did they ask you on those occasions?

Dr. JONES. I think, primarily, to verify that what I had written was true and that I had been one of the first doctors to be in the room with the President.

Mr. SPECTER. Did they ask you anything else other than that?

Dr. JONES. On one occasion they asked if there were any other pieces of paper that had been written on as to the care that had been administered to the President that I had not turned in, and I told them "No."

Mr. SPECTER. And did you and I sit down and talk for a few minutes before we went on the record in this deposition, with me indicating to you the general purpose and the line of questioning, and you setting forth the same information which we have put on the record here today?

Dr. JONES. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add which you think might be helpful to the Commission in any way?

Dr. JONES. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. That concludes the deposition. Thank you very much, Dr. Jones.

Dr. JONES. All right.

Dr. Don Teel Curtis

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TESTIMONY OF DR. DON TEEL CURTIS

Dr. SAYLER Volume VI

TESTIMONY OF DR. KENNETH EVERETT SALYER

The testimony of Dr. Kenneth Everett Salyer was taken at 6:15 p.m., on March 25, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that Dr. Kenneth Salyer is present in response to an inquiry that he appear to have his deposition taken in connection with the inquiries being conducted by the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy, which is looking into all facets of the shooting, including the wounds of the President and the care he received at Parkland Hospital.

With that preliminary statement of purpose, Dr. Salyer, will you stand up and raise your right hand?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you will give before the President's Commission in the course of this deposition will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Dr. SALYER. I do.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you had an opportunity to examine the document or the Executive order creating the President's Commission and Rules for the taking of testimony?

Dr. SALYER. Yes; I have.

Mr. SPECTER. And are you willing to have your deposition taken today without having the formal three days of written notice, which you have a right to, if you wish?

Dr. SALYER. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. You are willing to waive that right, is that right?

Dr. SALYER. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you state your full name for the record, please?

Dr. SALYER. Kenneth Everett Salyer.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your profession?

Dr. SALYER. Physician.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you duly licensed to practice medicine by the State of Texas?

Dr. SALYER. Yes; I am.

Mr. SPECTER. And would you outline briefly your educational background, please?

Dr. SALYER. A B.S. degree at the University of Kansas, an M.D. degree at the University of Kansas, and internship at Parkland, and now a first year resident in surgery at Parkland Hospital.

Mr. SPECTER. In what year did you graduate from the University of Kansas Medical School?

Dr. SALYER. 1962.

Mr. SPECTER. And how old are you, Dr. Salyer?

Dr. SALYER. I am 27.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you relate briefly the circumstances surrounding your being called in to assist in the treatment of President Kennedy?

Dr. SALYER. Well, for the month of November, as part of our rotation on surgery, I spent that month on neurosurgery, and being on call that day for any emergencies which come in to our emergency room related to neurosurgical problems, we would be called down to the emergency room to see these, and I was upstairs viewing a movie when I heard that the President had arrived and so I thought I should go down to the emergency room and see what the situation was.

Mr. SPECTER. And, upon your arrival at the emergency room, who was present?

Dr. SALYER. Oh, I don't recall--I know that there were a room full of doctors--I could list specific ones that I remember if you would like.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you please?

Dr. SALYER. I don't really think I could give you every one, but I remember Dr. Jenkins and Dr. Perry and Dr. Baxter, and also Dr. Bob McClelland and Dr. Carrico and Dr. Crenshaw, and I think a Dr. Gene Akin was there also---at that time, when I first came in.

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Mr. SPECTER. Can you think of any others?

Dr. SALYER. No; I don't recall any others--there could have been some, there were a lot of people sort of moving in and out. There certainly were a lot of nurses in there at that time.

Mr. SPECTER. Can you identify any of the nurses who were there?

Dr. SALYER. No; I can't.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the President's condition at the time you arrived?

Dr. SALYER. It was critical.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe about him with respect to any wounds he may have sustained?

Dr. SALYER Well, I observed that he did have some sucking wound of some type on his neck, and that he also had a wound of his right temporal region--these were the two main wounds.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have an opportunity to observe his throat?

Dr. SALYER No; I really did not. I think there were a lot of people--a lot of doctors more closely around him. I might mention also, I think just right after I came in the room Dr. Clark and Dr. Grossman also arrived.

Mr. SPECTER Doctor who?

Dr. SALYER Dr. Grossman, just briefly. He's a neurosurgeon also.

Mr. SPECTER. What is his name?

Dr. SALYER Dr. Grossman--Bob Grossman He was just there, I think, briefly.

Mr. SPECTER. How long was he there?

Dr. SALYER. I couldn't say--I'm not sure he came in the room. I know they were together--I cannot say that for sure.

Mr. SPECTER. To what extent did Dr. Crenshaw participate?

Dr. SALYER. Dr. Crenshaw participated about the extent that I did. We were occupied in making sure an I.V. was going and hanging up a bottle of blood.

Mr. SPECTER. Is the--is Dr. Crenshaw a resident?

Dr. SALYER. Yes, he is third-year resident. That's the reason I remember him specifically because we were sort of working there together on that.

Mr. SPECTER. I had asked you a moment ago whether you had an opportunity to observe the condition of the President's throat.

Dr. SALYER. Right.

Mr. SPECTER. What was your answer to that question?

Dr. SALYER The answer was--there were a lot of doctors standing around, and I didn't really get to observe the nature of the wound in the throat.

Mr. SPECTER. At approximately what time did you arrive at the emergency room where the President was situated ?

Dr. SALYER. I really don't know.

Mr. SPECTER. What was done for the President by way of treatment that you observed ?

Dr. SALYER. Well, an adequate airway eventually, of course, some external cardiac massage he had I.V.'s---intravenous fluids going in a number of sites, and all of the acute measures we administered him.

Mr. SPECTER. I didn't hear you at the end of your answer.

Dr. SALYER. I said--all of the many other measures that we administered--I don't recall specifically some of the other details as far as medications and so forth.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe with respect to the head wound?

Dr. SALYER. I came in on the left side of him and noticed that his major wound seemed to be in his right temporal area, at least from the point of view that I could see him, and other than that--nothing other than he did have a gaping scalp wound-- cranial wound.

Mr. SPECTER. Has anyone from the Federal Government talked to you about your observations of this matter?

Dr. SALYER No one has.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add which you think may be of aid to the President's Commission in its inquiry?

Dr. SALYER. No, I believe not.

Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much, Dr. Salyer.

Dr. SALYER. Thank you.

Dr. Shires Volume VI CHEST

TESTIMONY OF DR. GEORGE T. SHIRES

The testimony of Dr. George T. Shires was taken at 4:35 p.m., on March 23, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex. by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr SPECTER. Let the record show that as we are reconvening this session and about to commence the deposition of Dr. George T. Shires, that the preliminary statement is being made that this is pursuant to the investigation being conducted by the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy to determine all the facts relating to the shooting, including the treatment rendered to Governor Connally as well as President Kennedy, and that Dr. Shires has appeared here today in response to a letter of request from the President's Commission to testify concerning his knowledge of the treatment which he and other medical personnel at Parkland Hospital performed on Governor Connally.

Will you rise, please, Dr. Shires and raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you will give before the President's Commission in this deposition proceeding will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Dr. SHIRES. I do.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you state your full name, please, for the record?

Dr. SHIRES. George Thomas Shires.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is your profession, sir?

Dr. SHIRES. Professor of Surgery and Chairman of the Department of Surgery, University of Texas, Southwestern Medical School.

Mr. SPECTER. And you are a medical doctor by profession, I assume?

Dr. SHIRES. Yes; M.D.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you outline briefly your educational background?

Dr. SHIRES. Undergraduate education at the University of Texas in Austin, Tex.; graduate medical education at the University of Texas, Southwestern Medical School in Dallas; internship, Massachusetts Memorial Hospital in Boston, Mass.; surgical residency---Parkland Memorial Hospital in Dallas, Tex.; two tours of active duty in the United States Navy, first as research investigator at the Naval Medical Research Institute, National Naval Medical Center, Bethesda, Md.; second as Associate Surgeon, United States Naval Hospital Ship Haven--do you want staff positions?

Mr. SPECTER. Please, give me those, as well.

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Dr. SHIRES. Subsequently, Clinical Instructor in Surgery, University of Texas, Southwestern Medical School, progressing through Assistant Professor of Surgery, Associate Professor of Surgery, Professor of Surgery, and Chairman of the Department of Surgery.

Mr. SPECTER. What was your year of graduation from college, Dr. Shires?

Dr. SHIRES. This was premedical, and at that time the war was on, so it was a premedical 3 years---it was 1944.

Mr. SPECTER. And what year did you receive your medical degree?

Dr. SHIRES. 1948.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you Board certified at the present time?

Dr. SHIRES. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And, in what year were you so certified?

Dr. SHIRES. I was certified by the American Board of Surgery in 1956.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to render any medical treatment for President Kennedy back on November 22, 1963?

Dr. SHIRES. No; I was not in town at the time the shooting occurred. I was in Galveston, Tex., at the meeting of the Western Surgical Association.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to render medical attention and services to Governor Connally, Dr. Shires?

Dr. SHIRES. Yes.

Dr. SHIRES. After the President and the Governor were brought to Parkland Hospital, it was determined-well-all aid was given to the President that was available, and it was determined that Governor Connally's injuries were multiple, the primary injury to Governor Connally was to the chest.

Dr. Shaw, who is the professor of surgery---I don't need to tell their titles---- you will have all that?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes---correct.

Dr. SHIRES. Dr. Shaw ascertained the condition of Governor Connally, instituted therapy, and had the hospital notify me in Galveston of the status of the President and also the Governor.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to return then to Dallas in time to assist in the operative procedures on Governor Connally?

Dr. SHIRES. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And at approximately what time did you return to Dallas?

Dr. SHIRES. Approximately 3 pm.

Mr. SPECTER. And what participation did you have in the operative procedures on Governor Connally?

Dr. SHIRES. At the time I returned, the chest procedure was in progress. The orthopedic procedure on the arm and the leg debridement were ready to be started. I scrubbed and performed the leg procedure.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe, if anything, as to the condition of Governor Connally's chest wound?

Dr. SHIRES. At the time I arrived, the chest wound had been debrided and was being closed. His general condition at that point was very good. He was receiving blood and the arm and leg wounds were being prepared for surgery.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any opportunity to observe the wound on his back?

Dr. SHIRES. Not at that time.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any opportunity to observe a wound on his chest?

Dr. SHIRES. Once again, not at that time later, but not at that time.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, what did you observe at a later time concerning the wound on his back and on his chest?

Dr. SHIRES. Well, in part of his postoperative care, which was a large part of the treatment, we were concerned, of course, with all the wounds. and he had several chest wounds. These, at the time I saw them, had been debrided and were the site of draining, so that their initial appearance was completely altered by having had surgical debridement, so they were clean postsurgical wounds with drainage, at the time I first saw them.

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Dr. SHIRES. They would---really.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe at the time you arrived at the hospital as to the condition of his wrist, if anything?

Dr. SHIRES. At that point his wrist was being prepared for surgery, and although I did not examine this in detail, since I was concerned with the thigh wound, there appeared to be. a through and through wound of the wrist which looked like a missile wound.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to formulate any opinion as to the point of entry or the point of exit?

Dr. SHIRES. No; since I didn't examine it in detail; no, not really.

Mr. SPECTER. And what did you observe as to the wound on the thigh ?

Dr. SHIRES. The wound on the thigh was a peculiar one. There was a 1 cm. punctate missile wound over the junction of the middle and lower third of the leg and the medial aspect of the, thigh. The peculiarity came in that the X-rays of the left leg showed only a very small 1 mm. bullet fragment imbedded in the femur of' the left leg. Upon exploration of this wound, the other peculiarity was that there was very little soft tissue damage, less than one would expect from an entrance wound of a centimeter in diameter, which was seen on the skin. So, it appeared, therefore, that the skin wound was either a tangential wound or that a larger .fragment had penetrated or stopped in the skin and had subsequently fallen out of the entrance wound.

Mr. SPECTER. What size fragment was there in the Governor's leg at that time?

Dr. SHIRES. We recovered none. The small one that was seen was on X-ray and it was still in the femur and being that small, with no tissue damage after the debridement, it was thought inadvisable to remove this small fragment.

Mr. SPECTER. Is that fragment in the bone itself at the present time?

Dr. SHIRES. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. What would your best estimate be as to the size of that fragment?

Dr. SHIRES. One millimeter in diameter---one to two.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you have any estimate as to how much that might weigh in grains?

Dr. SHIRES. In grains---a fraction of a grain, maybe, a tenth of a grain---very small.

Mr. SPECTER. A tenth of one grain?

Dr. SHIRES. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. What size bullet would it take to create the punctate hole which you described in the thigh?

Dr. SHIRES. This would depend entirely on the angle and the speed and weight of the bullet. For example, a small missile on a tangent may create a surprisingly large defect. A large bullet with fast or a relatively slow velocity will create the same defect.

Mr. SPECTER. What operative procedures did you employ?

Dr. SHIRES. Progressive debridement from skin, fat, fascia, muscle, irrigation, and through and through enclosure with stainless steel alloy wire and removable sutures.

Mr. SPECTER. Does that complete a general description of what you did to Governor Connally?

Dr. SHIRES. In the operating room, yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Approximately what time did that operation start?

Dr. SHIRES. Approximately 1 o'clock.

Mr. SPECTER The operation that you were concerned with?

Dr. SHIRES. Oh, the operation that I was concerned with must have started at 3:30 or 4 o'clock, I guess it was.

Mr. SPECTER. And about what time did it end?

Dr. SHIRES. My portion of it---about 20 minutes later.

Mr. SPECTER. And who, if anyone, assisted you in that portion of the operation?

Dr. SHIRES. Doctors Robert McClelland, Charles Baxter, and Ralph Don Patman.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shires, I am showing you a document identified heretofore

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as Commission Exhibit No. 392, which is the report of Parkland Hospital on the treatment of President Kennedy and Governor Connally, and I show you a Parkland Memorial Hospital operative record, dated November 22, 1963, which lists you as the surgeon, and ask you whether or not this represents the report made by you on the operative procedures on Governor Connally?

Dr. SHIRES. Yes; it does.

Mr. SPECTER. And, are those the same as the matters which you have heretofore described during the course of this deposition as to what you did?

Dr. SHIRES. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, what treatment, if any, have you performed on Governor Connally subsequent to November 22?

Dr. SHIRES. A tremendous amount---postoperative care was of the essence here in that he had multiple injuries, massive blood and fluid replacement, so that to describe the care is really a detail of postoperative---I don't know how much of this you want---in other words, he had clotting defects---I don't know whether you want to take this down---I just want to ask you how much detail you would like?

Mr. SPECTER. Start off with a general description---perhaps, I will direct your attention to some specific areas to abbreviate it. First of all, how frequently did you see him after November 22, 1963?

Dr. SHIRES. For the first several days I saw him approximately every 2 to 4 hours for an hour or so each visit, and many times for 6 and 8 hours at a stretch.

Mr. SPECTER. And after that time how frequently did you see him?

Dr. SHIRES. Decreasing frequency over the next 3 weeks---never less than three or four times a day, even after he was convalescing.

Mr. SPECTER. How long was he in the hospital?

Dr. SHIRES. I don't really know the number of days he was in the hospital.

Mr. SPECTER. After he left the hospital, have you seen him?

Dr. SHIRES. Yes: I saw him again approximately 2 weeks, I guess it was, after he left the hospital, in Austin. He developed a superficial saphenous thrombophlebitis in the right leg, not the one that the injury occurred in. This was undoubtedly incident to a catheter cutdown having been placed in this leg for administration of blood and fluids while he was in the hospital. He unequivocably had a clot in the saphenous vein and at this time was placed on bed rest, antibiotics, anticoagulants and responded very satisfactorily

Mr. SPECTER. Do you anticipate seeing him in the future?

Dr. SHIRES. Do I?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes.

Dr. SHIRES. Not for his wounds. No--the only followup care that he really requires at the moment is the bone---the orthopedic followup, which incidentally is also completely healed.

Mr. SPECTER. Doctor, look, if you will, at a document which we have marked Dr. Gregory X-l, used in the course of the deposition of Dr. Gregory, which immediately preceded yours and directing your attention first to Diagram Number 1, would the entry and exit holes on Governor Connally's back and chest, being entry and exit, respectively, and the exit and entry on the wrist

with the entry being on the back side of the wrist and the exit on the front side of the wrist, correspond with your observations of Governor Connally .

Dr. SHIRES. Yes; they would

Mr. SPECTER. Now, going to Diagram 2, which depicts a man standing, would that correspond to the angle of the entry and exit wounds?

Dr. SHIRES. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, going to Diagram No. 3, would that diagram correspond with the wounds on Governor Connally as you recollect them to be?

Dr. SHIRES. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Going now to Diagram 4, would that again correspond with the wounds on Governor Connally ?

Dr. SHIRES. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And as to Diagram No. 5, what does that represent?

Dr. SHIRES. This, at the time of the discussion of Governor Connally's injuries with his wife, before he really regained consciousness from surgery, was the

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apparent position that he was in in the car, which would explain one missile producing all three wounds.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have a discussion with Mrs. Connally?

Dr. SHIRES. Yes; with Mrs. Connally.

Mr. SPECTER. And when was that discussion?

Dr. SHIRES. Right after the surgery---this was the 22d, late in the afternoon.

Mr. SPECTER. And what, if anything, did she tell you as to the Governor's position?

Dr. SHIRES. She had thought, and I think correctly so, that he had turned to his right after he heard the first shot, apparently, to see what had happened to the President, and he then later confirmed this, that he heard the first shot, turned to his right, and then was hit. I forgot about that a moment ago, incidentally. He definitely remembers turning after hearing the first shot, before he was struck with a bullet. I forgot about that.

Mr. SPECTER. When did Governor Connally tell you that?

I)r. SHIRES. Oh, several days later.

Mr. SPECTER. While he was in the hospital?

Dr. SHIRES. Oh, yes---4 or 5 days later and we were constructing the events.

Mr. SPECTER What was the occasion for your conversation with him?

Dr. SHIRES. In part of his routine care one morning, as he was reconstructing his memory of events, because his memory was quite hazy, since he had a sucking wound of the chest and came in here relatively in anoxia, he had some cyanosis, as you know.

Mr. SPECTER. What is cyanosis?

Dr. SHIRES. Not enough oxygen of the tissues and this means they turn blue.

Mr. SPECTER. Would that affect his memory?

Dr. SHIRES. Yes; sure would and did, and he remembers very little after he fell over in the car--he is very hazy, until, oh, probably the second day post operatively.

Dr. SHIRES. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Or, would that affect only his memory while he was suffering from lack of oxygen?

Dr. SHIRES. Probably Just while he was suffering from lack of oxygen. He didn't have that much hypoxia. Hypoxia or anoxia or lack of oxygen could affect his memory. Had this been severe, this could have affected his memory for preceding events, but his hypoxia fortunately did not. last that long, and .he never showed real evidence of brain damage from the anoxia, so that I think his memory for events up until the time he recalls falling over in the car is probably accurate.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you relate just as exactly as you can for us what he said to you, and the nature of the conversation, with your replies, and how it went as closely as you can recount it now?

Dr. SHIRES. He recounted, and as I remember this particular occasion, Mrs. Connally was in the room too, and reconstructing events, she related the story of her last conversation with the President, relating to him, that the reception had been warm and that she was glad he couldn't say that people of Texas and in Dallas didn't like him and admire him, and she was very pleased with the way things had gone the. whole visit. Then, the next event that occurred was that she remembers hearing a shot, he remembered hearing a shot---he remembers turning to the right, he remembered being struck by a bullet, and his next thought as he fell over toward his wife was "They're going to kill all of us," and that's the last really clear memory that he expressed to me until he remembers vaguely being in the emergency room, but very little of that and then he remembers waking up in the recovery room several hours later.

Mr. SPECTER. Did he say anything to you about who he meant by "they"?

Dr. SHIRES. He didn't say---he didn't comment on it at all.

Mr. SPECTER. Did he describe the nature of the sound which he heard?

Dr. SHIRES. I don't believe he did---no.

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Mr. SPECTER. Did anybody describe the nature of the sound?

Dr. SHIRES. I think Mrs. Connally did. I think she thought it was, if I'm not wrong, she thought it was a loud retort, either a gun or a firecracker. think she thought it was a bullet and I think he did too---thought it was gun---I believe he did too.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, did Governor Connally say anything about hearing President Kennedy say anything?

Dr. SHIRES. No--no, he didn't.

Mr. SPECTER. Did Mrs. Connally say anything about whether President Kennedy said anything?

Dr. SHIRES. No, she didn't. She remembered Mrs. Kennedy saying some things, but she didn't remember anything about the President having uttered a word.

Mr. SPECTER What did Mrs. Kennedy say, according to Mrs. Connally?

Dr. SHIRES. Oh, it's vague, even in my memory, but things to the effect that her husband had been shot and---well, that was really the essence of it. It wasn't phrased that way.

Mr. SPECTER. Focusing on the time sequence---what did Governor Connally say as to the timing, number one, the time he was hit, and number two, the time he had heard a sound, and number three, the time he turned-those three factors? In what sequence did he relate them?

Dr. SHIRES. As he recalled it, he heard a shot, he turned to the right and felt himself receiving a shot--in that order--in a matter of a few seconds

Dr. SHIRES. In the right chest.

Mr. SPECTER Did he make any comment about feeling anything in his wrist?

Dr. SHIRES. No; I don't believe he did.

Mr. SPECTER How about feeling anything in his thigh?

Dr. SHIRES. I don't believe he ever commented on that to me.

Mr. SPECTER Did he say anything else to you at 'that time about his recollections on the day of the assassination?

Dr. SHIRES. No; other than this striking feeling he had after he was hit, that someone was trying to kill all of them---apparently he remembers that quite clearly, right after he was hit, but that's all.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you discuss his recollection of the events of the assassination day with Governor Connally on any other occasion?

Dr. SHIRES. Oh, yes; sporadically, during his convalescence.

Mr. SPECTER What else did he say to you at any other time?

Dr. SHIRES. He was just simply asking questions about things that happened to him in the Emergency Room, in the Operating Room, and he was a little surprised that he didn't recall them better, but this was after he was wounded in here, but that was really the main thing---he was surprised that he didn't remember some of the things--like the cutdowns for blood and that sort of thing that were done to him, and, of course, this is obviously because he was so anoxic at the time.

Mr. SPECTER. Did he ever describe anything in more detail in his recollection

of the things on the day of the assassination?

Dr. SHIRES. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, going back to the first conversation you had with Mrs. Connally on November 22d, did she say anything more to you other than that which you have already testified about?

Dr. SHIRES. No---those were mainly the remarks that she made. I don't remember any others, except---well, no---most of the others were---we were discussing the Governor's condition and outlook and chances for recovery and that sort of thing.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, looking again at Diagram No. 5, what is your professional opinion, if you have one, as to whether Governor Connally's chest injury, wrist injury, and thigh injury were caused by the same bullet?

Dr. SHIRES. Well we all thought, me included, that this was probably one missile, one bullet.

Mr. SPECTER. When you say "we all thought," whom. do you mean by that?

Dr. SHIRES. Dr. Shaw, Dr. Gregory---as we were reconstructing the events

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in the operating room in an attempt to plot out trajectory as best we could, this appeared to be our opinion.

Mr. SPECTER. Did any of your assistants consult with you in those calculations?

Dr. SHIRES. I guess nearly all of them we have listed.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. McClelland, Dr. Baxter and Dr. Patman?

Dr. SHIRES. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. How about Dr. Osborne and Dr. Parker?

Dr. SHIRES. They were working with Dr. Gregory. If they discussed it, I'm sure they did---it was before I got there.

Mr. SPECTER. How about Dr. Boland and Dr. Duke who worked with Dr. Shaw?

Dr. SHIRES. Now, again, I talked to them and they were discussing it as they did the chest procedure, and again thought the same thing. Everyone was under the impression this was one missile---through and through the chest, through and through the arm and the thigh.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there any one of the doctors on either of these three teams who had a different point of view?

Dr. SHIRES. Not that I remember.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you think it is possible that Governor Connally could have been struck by two bullets, one entering his back and emerging from his chest and the second going into his wrist?

Dr. SHIRES. I'm sure it is possible, because missile sites are so variable, depending upon the size of the bullet, the speed at which it travels, whether it was tumbling or not. We have seen all kinds of combinations of entrance and exit wounds and it's just impossible to state with any certainty, looking at a given wound, what the nature of the missile was, so I am sure it is possible.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you think it is possible that, assuming a missile being a bullet 6.5 ram. with a velocity of over 2,000 feet per second, and the distance between the weapon and the victim being approximately 160 to 250 feet, that the same bullet might have passed through President Kennedy, entering his back near the midline and emerging from his neck, and then entering Governor Connally in the back and emerging from his chest, into his wrist, through his wrist and into the thigh?

Dr. SHIRES. I assume that it would be possible. The main thing that would make me think that this was not the case in that he remembers so distinctly hearing a shot and having turned prior to the time he was hit, and in the position he must have been, particularly here in Figure 5, I think it's obvious that he did turn rather sharply to the right and this would make me think that it was a second shot, but this is purely conjecture, of course.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, is there anything, aside from what he told you, that is, anything in the characteristics of the wounds on President Kennedy and the wounds on Governor Connally which would lead you to conclude that it was not the same bullet?

Dr. SHIRES. No--there is nothing. It could have been---purely from the standpoint of the wounds, it is possible.

Mr. SPECTER. You referred just a minute ago to his turning position?

Dr. SHIRES. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Is the postulation of a turning by Governor Connally necessary to explain the point of entry in the back, exit in the chest, entry in the wrist, and exit in the wrist, and entry into the thigh, in order to have that line---to state it differently, is it necessary to postulate turning by the Governor?

Dr. SHIRES. Depending upon the angle of the trajectory---I suppose not. I don't know what the angle of the trajectory was from where the bullet was fired.

Mr. SPECTER. Assuming an angle of declination of approximately 45 degrees?

Dr. SHIRES. This, I don't know without drawing it out, but as long as his right arm is drawn in front of him next to the exit wound on the chest, he is in a sitting position, if the angle of declination was right, then I think he could have received this facing straight forward.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, on the wrist, would that be palm of the wrist, back of the wrist, or how?

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Dr. SHIRES. I don't understand.

Mr. SPECTER. In what position would the wrist have had to be in, in order to have the same bullet make all three wounds?

Dr. SHIRES. The main point was that his arm be up here. In other words, in some fashion, however his hand happened to be turned, but he had to have his right arm raised up next to his chest.

Mr. SPECTER. His wrist would have to be up with the palm down, would it not?

Dr. SHIRES. As depicted here.

Mr. SPECTER. In order for the point of entry to be on the dorsal side?

Dr. SHIRES. That's right, again, which makes it a little more likely he was turning, since ordinarily you pronate your wrist as you turn, whereas, this would have' been a little strange for him to have been sitting like this, but again, depending on what he had in his hand. It's just a question of which side is up.

Mr. SPECTER. But it would be more natural, you say, for the palm to be down in the turning, which was as contrasted with a relaxed sitting position where it would be more likely his palm would be facing in towards his chest area?

Dr. SHIRES. Right.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any knowledge as to the damage which was done to the rib?

Dr. SHIRES. Only from hearsay from Dr. Shaw, that's all.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any knowledge as to what fragments there were in the chest, bullet fragments, if any?

Dr. SHIRES. No, again except from postoperative X-rays, there is a small fragment remaining, but the initial fragments I think Dr. Shaw saw before I arrived.

Mr. SPECTER. How about the fragments in the wrist, do you have any knowledge of that?

Dr. SHIRES. Again, there were small fragments which I saw during the procedure on the wrist, but I was not directly involved in that procedure.

Mr. SPECTER. What opinion do you have, if any, Dr. Shires, as to whether the wound in the thigh might have been inflicted from a missile that did not pass through any other part of the Governor's body, assuming that it was a 6.5-mm. bullet with a muzzle velocity of 2,000 feet per second, traveling approximately 160 to 250 feet between the end of the weapon and the point of impact on the thigh?

Dr. SHIRES. Well, again, in that wound---it was strange in that the hole in the skin was too large for the amount of damage inflicted on the underlying tissues, so that had this been the case, this would have had to have been a tangential wound. Had it been a tangential wound, then it's possible that small fragments could have gone into bone as it did and that the damage to the soft tissues was done only by that small fragment, so that the major portion of the bullet simply hit the skin in a tangent and went on in its course elsewhere.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, is it possible that the bullet could have hit Governor Connally with the thigh being the initial point of impact and do the damage which was done there with the high velocity missile that I have just described for you?

Dr. SHIRES. Is it possible to get a wound like that?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes, sir.

Dr. SHIRES. Yes; as long as it's on a tangent.

Mr. SPECTER. Is it likely to receive a wound like that from a high velocity weapon of 2,000 feet per second and at about 160 to 250 feet?

Dr. SHIRES. If it's a tangential wound, tangential wounds can be very strange. A large bullet can cause a small hole if its on a tangent or a small bullet can rip out a fairly large hole on a tangent. It just depends on the time of contact and the angle of contact with the skin. That's why it's awfully hard to predict.

Mr. SPECTER. So that wound could have either been the first striking of the Governor from the bullet, or it could have been from a missile whose velocity

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was spent after going through President Kennedy and through the Governor's body and wrist and then caused that wound in the thigh?

Dr. SHIRES. That's right, if it was a tangential bullet.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shires, have you ever been contacted by any representative of the Federal Government prior to today?

Dr. SHIRES. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And who was it who contacted you?

Dr. SHIRES. I don't recall the name---it was two individuals from the Secret Service. They presented their credentials at the time to the administration and then subsequently to me and they were given copies of our operative reports, statements made by people concerned with the President and Governor at the time, and then subsequently one of those same two men from Secret Service returned and charted the entrance and exit wounds which you have described previously, or we have looked at previously in these five diagrams.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever been interviewed by any other representative of the Federal Government before today?

Dr. SHIRES. No; not in person. I discussed over the phone with the FBI--- well, that was with regard to Oswald. I discussed over the phone what happened to the bullet that was taken from Oswald, but not with regard to the President or the Governor---no.

Mr. SPECTER. On your prior interviews by the Secret Service, sir, did they cover the same subjects which you and I have gone over today, or were other subjects covered?

Dr. SHIRES. No; essentially the same subjects.

Mr. SPECTER. And was any different information given to you by the Secret Service at that time of either of those two occasions?

Dr. SHIRES. No; the same as we have discussed here.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, prior to the time when you were sworn in and the court reporter started to take the deposition in shorthand form, did you and I have a brief discussion about the purpose of the deposition and the subject matters of interest to the Commission?

Dr. SHIRES. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And was the same information given by you to me during the course of that informal discussion as you have testified to on the record here this afternoon?

Dr. SHIRES. Yes; in less detail.

Mr. SPECTER. And do you have anything which you would care to add which

you think might be helpful to the Commission in its work?

Dr. SHIRES. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, fine, that concludes the deposition, thank you very much, Dr. Shires.

Dr. SHIRES. Are you interested in Oswald---that's my only other question?

Mr. SPECTER. Well, let's talk about it a little off the record.

(Discussion between Counsel Specter and witness Dr. Shires off the record at this point.)

Mr. SPECTER. Let's go back on the record. Dr. Shires, before concluding the deposition, permit me to ask you Just a few additional questions about care for Lee Harvey Oswald.

First of all, I again show you Commission Exhibit No. 392, the last two pages which purport to he an operative record of Parkland Memorial Hospital on November 24, 1963, concerning treatment of Mr. Oswald, with you listed as the surgeon, and I'll ask you to take a look at these two sheets and tell us whether or not that is a report which you prepared on treatment of Mr. Oswald?

Dr. SHIRES. Yes, it is.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you outline in a very general way what his condition was when you first saw him?

Dr. SHIRES. When he was first seen in the emergency room, he was unconscious, without blood pressure or pulse, but with an audible heart beat, and attempts, feeble though they were, attempts in respiration. There was an entrance wound over the left lower chest and the bullet could be felt subcutaneously over the lower chest lateral projecting this trajectory through the body and looking

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at his general condition, it was fairly obvious that the bullet had transgressed virtually every major organ and vessel in the abdominal cavity, which later proved to be the case.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you do for him?

Dr. SHIRES. He was given resuscitation, including an endotracheal tube, intravenous fluids, blood, moved to the operating room, prepared, draped, an abdominal incision, laparotomy made, just as is described in the record. The injuries were in fact mortal and involved both major vessels in the abdomen, the aorta, the inferior vena cava, and there had been massive exanguinating hemorrhage into the abdomen--in and around the abdomen.

After securing control of all the many, many bleeding points and the bleeding organs, he never had regained consciousness. Approximately 15, 16--whatever it is, approximately, pints of blood had been given, and he had suffered irreparable anoxia from the initial massive blood loss incident to the gunshot wound. When his heart did stop, even though we felt this was a terminal cessation of heartbeat, efforts were made at resuscitation by open heart massage and all that went with it, but never once was an effective heartbeat obtained, so that our initial impression was that it was correct in that this was simply cardiac death and not cardiac arrest.

Mr. SPECTER a. Did you come close to saving him, in the vernacular---in lay terms?

Dr. SHIRES. There has never been recorded in medical literature recovery from a wound like this. There was too much blood lost too fast. Had the injury occurred fight outside the operating room, it might have been possible to reduce the period of anoxia that comes from overwhelming blood loss like this, sufficiently to have corrected it. We did control all the bleeding points with a lot of difficulty, finally all bleeding points were controlled and this was a mortal wound--there was no question about that.

Mr. SPECTER. Are the details of your observations, examination, and treatment of Mr. Oswald set forth in the two pages of this report which I have just shown you in Commission No. 392?

Dr. SHIRES. Yes, the operative reports that are contained there.

Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much, Dr. Shires.

Dr. SHIRES. Thank you.

Dr. Richard Brooks Dulany

Page 113

TESTIMONY OF DR. RICHARD BROOKS DULANY

Dr. Shires Volume VI

TESTIMONY OF DR. GEORGE T. SHIRES

The testimony of Dr. George T. Shires was taken at 4:35 p.m., on March 23, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex. by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr SPECTER. Let the record show that as we are reconvening this session and about to commence the deposition of Dr. George T. Shires, that the preliminary statement is being made that this is pursuant to the investigation being conducted by the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy to determine all the facts relating to the shooting, including the treatment rendered to Governor Connally as well as President Kennedy, and that Dr. Shires has appeared here today in response to a letter of request from the President's Commission to testify concerning his knowledge of the treatment which he and other medical personnel at Parkland Hospital performed on Governor Connally.

Will you rise, please, Dr. Shires and raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you will give before the President's Commission in this deposition proceeding will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Dr. SHIRES. I do.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you state your full name, please, for the record?

Dr. SHIRES. George Thomas Shires.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is your profession, sir?

Dr. SHIRES. Professor of Surgery and Chairman of the Department of Surgery, University of Texas, Southwestern Medical School.

Mr. SPECTER. And you are a medical doctor by profession, I assume?

Dr. SHIRES. Yes; M.D.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you outline briefly your educational background?

Dr. SHIRES. Undergraduate education at the University of Texas in Austin, Tex.; graduate medical education at the University of Texas, Southwestern Medical School in Dallas; internship, Massachusetts Memorial Hospital in Boston, Mass.; surgical residency---Parkland Memorial Hospital in Dallas, Tex.; two tours of active duty in the United States Navy, first as research investigator at the Naval Medical Research Institute, National Naval Medical Center, Bethesda, Md.; second as Associate Surgeon, United States Naval Hospital Ship Haven--do you want staff positions?

Mr. SPECTER. Please, give me those, as well.

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Dr. SHIRES. Subsequently, Clinical Instructor in Surgery, University of Texas, Southwestern Medical School, progressing through Assistant Professor of Surgery, Associate Professor of Surgery, Professor of Surgery, and Chairman of the Department of Surgery.

Mr. SPECTER. What was your year of graduation from college, Dr. Shires?

Dr. SHIRES. This was premedical, and at that time the war was on, so it was a premedical 3 years---it was 1944.

Mr. SPECTER. And what year did you receive your medical degree?

Dr. SHIRES. 1948.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you Board certified at the present time?

Dr. SHIRES. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And, in what year were you so certified?

Dr. SHIRES. I was certified by the American Board of Surgery in 1956.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to render any medical treatment for President Kennedy back on November 22, 1963?

Dr. SHIRES. No; I was not in town at the time the shooting occurred. I was in Galveston, Tex., at the meeting of the Western Surgical Association.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to render medical attention and services to Governor Connally, Dr. Shires?

Dr. SHIRES. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you state briefly the circumstances under which you were called into this case?

Dr. SHIRES. After the President and the Governor were brought to Parkland Hospital, it was determined-well-all aid was given to the President that was available, and it was determined that Governor Connally's injuries were multiple, the primary injury to Governor Connally was to the chest.

Dr. Shaw, who is the professor of surgery---I don't need to tell their titles---- you will have all that?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes---correct.

Dr. SHIRES. Dr. Shaw ascertained the condition of Governor Connally, instituted therapy, and had the hospital notify me in Galveston of the status of the President and also the Governor.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to return then to Dallas in time to assist in the operative procedures on Governor Connally?

Dr. SHIRES. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And at approximately what time did you return to Dallas?

Dr. SHIRES. Approximately 3 pm.

Mr. SPECTER. And what participation did you have in the operative procedures on Governor Connally?

Dr. SHIRES. At the time I returned, the chest procedure was in progress. The orthopedic procedure on the arm and the leg debridement were ready to be started. I scrubbed and performed the leg procedure.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe, if anything, as to the condition of Governor Connally's chest wound?

Dr. SHIRES. At the time I arrived, the chest wound had been debrided and was being closed. His general condition at that point was very good. He was receiving blood and the arm and leg wounds were being prepared for surgery.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any opportunity to observe the wound on his back?

Dr. SHIRES. Not at that time.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any opportunity to observe a wound on his chest?

Dr. SHIRES. Once again, not at that time later, but not at that time.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, what did you observe at a later time concerning the wound on his back and on his chest?

Dr. SHIRES. Well, in part of his postoperative care, which was a large part of the treatment, we were concerned, of course, with all the wounds. and he had several chest wounds. These, at the time I saw them, had been debrided and were the site of draining, so that their initial appearance was completely altered by having had surgical debridement, so they were clean postsurgical wounds with drainage, at the time I first saw them.

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Mr. SPECTER. Would their alteration and condition preclude you from giving an opinion as to whether they were points of entry or points of exit?

Dr. SHIRES. They would---really.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe at the time you arrived at the hospital as to the condition of his wrist, if anything?

Dr. SHIRES. At that point his wrist was being prepared for surgery, and although I did not examine this in detail, since I was concerned with the thigh wound, there appeared to be. a through and through wound of the wrist which looked like a missile wound.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to formulate any opinion as to the point of entry or the point of exit?

Dr. SHIRES. No; since I didn't examine it in detail; no, not really.

Mr. SPECTER. And what did you observe as to the wound on the thigh ?

Dr. SHIRES. The wound on the thigh was a peculiar one. There was a 1 cm. punctate missile wound over the junction of the middle and lower third of the leg and the medial aspect of the, thigh. The peculiarity came in that the X-rays of the left leg showed only a very small 1 mm. bullet fragment imbedded in the femur of' the left leg. Upon exploration of this wound, the other peculiarity was that there was very little soft tissue damage, less than one would expect from an entrance wound of a centimeter in diameter, which was seen on the skin. So, it appeared, therefore, that the skin wound was either a tangential wound or that a larger .fragment had penetrated or stopped in the skin and had subsequently fallen out of the entrance wound.

Mr. SPECTER. What size fragment was there in the Governor's leg at that time?

Dr. SHIRES. We recovered none. The small one that was seen was on X-ray and it was still in the femur and being that small, with no tissue damage after the debridement, it was thought inadvisable to remove this small fragment.

Mr. SPECTER. Is that fragment in the bone itself at the present time?

Dr. SHIRES. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. What would your best estimate be as to the size of that fragment?

Dr. SHIRES. One millimeter in diameter---one to two.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you have any estimate as to how much that might weigh in grains?

Dr. SHIRES. In grains---a fraction of a grain, maybe, a tenth of a grain---very small.

Mr. SPECTER. A tenth of one grain?

Dr. SHIRES. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. What size bullet would it take to create the punctate hole which you described in the thigh?

Dr. SHIRES. This would depend entirely on the angle and the speed and weight of the bullet. For example, a small missile on a tangent may create a surprisingly large defect. A large bullet with fast or a relatively slow velocity will create the same defect.

Mr. SPECTER. What operative procedures did you employ?

Dr. SHIRES. Progressive debridement from skin, fat, fascia, muscle, irrigation, and through and through enclosure with stainless steel alloy wire and removable sutures.

Mr. SPECTER. Does that complete a general description of what you did to Governor Connally?

Dr. SHIRES. In the operating room, yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Approximately what time did that operation start?

Dr. SHIRES. Approximately 1 o'clock.

Mr. SPECTER The operation that you were concerned with?

Dr. SHIRES. Oh, the operation that I was concerned with must have started at 3:30 or 4 o'clock, I guess it was.

Mr. SPECTER. And about what time did it end?

Dr. SHIRES. My portion of it---about 20 minutes later.

Mr. SPECTER. And who, if anyone, assisted you in that portion of the operation?

Dr. SHIRES. Doctors Robert McClelland, Charles Baxter, and Ralph Don Patman.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shires, I am showing you a document identified heretofore

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as Commission Exhibit No. 392, which is the report of Parkland Hospital on the treatment of President Kennedy and Governor Connally, and I show you a Parkland Memorial Hospital operative record, dated November 22, 1963, which lists you as the surgeon, and ask you whether or not this represents the report made by you on the operative procedures on Governor Connally?

Dr. SHIRES. Yes; it does.

Mr. SPECTER. And, are those the same as the matters which you have heretofore described during the course of this deposition as to what you did?

Dr. SHIRES. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, what treatment, if any, have you performed on Governor Connally subsequent to November 22?

Dr. SHIRES. A tremendous amount---postoperative care was of the essence here in that he had multiple injuries, massive blood and fluid replacement, so that to describe the care is really a detail of postoperative---I don't know how much of this you want---in other words, he had clotting defects---I don't know whether you want to take this down---I just want to ask you how much detail you would like?

Mr. SPECTER. Start off with a general description---perhaps, I will direct your attention to some specific areas to abbreviate it. First of all, how frequently did you see him after November 22, 1963?

Dr. SHIRES. For the first several days I saw him approximately every 2 to 4 hours for an hour or so each visit, and many times for 6 and 8 hours at a stretch.

Mr. SPECTER. And after that time how frequently did you see him?

Dr. SHIRES. Decreasing frequency over the next 3 weeks---never less than three or four times a day, even after he was convalescing.

Mr. SPECTER. How long was he in the hospital?

Dr. SHIRES. I don't really know the number of days he was in the hospital.

Mr. SPECTER. After he left the hospital, have you seen him?

Dr. SHIRES. Yes: I saw him again approximately 2 weeks, I guess it was, after he left the hospital, in Austin. He developed a superficial saphenous thrombophlebitis in the right leg, not the one that the injury occurred in. This was undoubtedly incident to a catheter cutdown having been placed in this leg for administration of blood and fluids while he was in the hospital. He unequivocably had a clot in the saphenous vein and at this time was placed on bed rest, antibiotics, anticoagulants and responded very satisfactorily

Mr. SPECTER. Do you anticipate seeing him in the future?

Dr. SHIRES. Do I?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes.

Dr. SHIRES. Not for his wounds. No--the only followup care that he really requires at the moment is the bone---the orthopedic followup, which incidentally is also completely healed.

Mr. SPECTER. Doctor, look, if you will, at a document which we have marked Dr. Gregory X-l, used in the course of the deposition of Dr. Gregory, which immediately preceded yours and directing your attention first to Diagram Number 1, would the entry and exit holes on Governor Connally's back and chest, being entry and exit, respectively, and the exit and entry on the wrist

with the entry being on the back side of the wrist and the exit on the front side of the wrist, correspond with your observations of Governor Connally .

Dr. SHIRES. Yes; they would

Mr. SPECTER. Now, going to Diagram 2, which depicts a man standing, would that correspond to the angle of the entry and exit wounds?

Dr. SHIRES. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, going to Diagram No. 3, would that diagram correspond with the wounds on Governor Connally as you recollect them to be?

Dr. SHIRES. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Going now to Diagram 4, would that again correspond with the wounds on Governor Connally ?

Dr. SHIRES. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And as to Diagram No. 5, what does that represent?

Dr. SHIRES. This, at the time of the discussion of Governor Connally's injuries with his wife, before he really regained consciousness from surgery, was the

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apparent position that he was in in the car, which would explain one missile producing all three wounds.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have a discussion with Mrs. Connally?

Dr. SHIRES. Yes; with Mrs. Connally.

Mr. SPECTER. And when was that discussion?

Dr. SHIRES. Right after the surgery---this was the 22d, late in the afternoon.

Mr. SPECTER. And what, if anything, did she tell you as to the Governor's position?

Dr. SHIRES. She had thought, and I think correctly so, that he had turned to his right after he heard the first shot, apparently, to see what had happened to the President, and he then later confirmed this, that he heard the first shot, turned to his right, and then was hit. I forgot about that a moment ago, incidentally. He definitely remembers turning after hearing the first shot, before he was struck with a bullet. I forgot about that.

Mr. SPECTER. When did Governor Connally tell you that?

I)r. SHIRES. Oh, several days later.

Mr. SPECTER. While he was in the hospital?

Dr. SHIRES. Oh, yes---4 or 5 days later and we were constructing the events.

Mr. SPECTER What was the occasion for your conversation with him?

Dr. SHIRES. In part of his routine care one morning, as he was reconstructing his memory of events, because his memory was quite hazy, since he had a sucking wound of the chest and came in here relatively in anoxia, he had some cyanosis, as you know.

Mr. SPECTER. What is cyanosis?

Dr. SHIRES. Not enough oxygen of the tissues and this means they turn blue.

Mr. SPECTER. Would that affect his memory?

Dr. SHIRES. Yes; sure would and did, and he remembers very little after he fell over in the car--he is very hazy, until, oh, probably the second day post operatively.

Mr. SPECTER Would that affect his memory as to what happened before the wound?

Dr. SHIRES. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Or, would that affect only his memory while he was suffering from lack of oxygen?

Dr. SHIRES. Probably Just while he was suffering from lack of oxygen. He didn't have that much hypoxia. Hypoxia or anoxia or lack of oxygen could affect his memory. Had this been severe, this could have affected his memory for preceding events, but his hypoxia fortunately did not. last that long, and .he never showed real evidence of brain damage from the anoxia, so that I think his memory for events up until the time he recalls falling over in the car is probably accurate.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you relate just as exactly as you can for us what he said to you, and the nature of the conversation, with your replies, and how it went as closely as you can recount it now?

Dr. SHIRES. He recounted, and as I remember this particular occasion, Mrs. Connally was in the room too, and reconstructing events, she related the story of her last conversation with the President, relating to him, that the reception had been warm and that she was glad he couldn't say that people of Texas and in Dallas didn't like him and admire him, and she was very pleased with the way things had gone the. whole visit. Then, the next event that occurred was that she remembers hearing a shot, he remembered hearing a shot---he remembers turning to the right, he remembered being struck by a bullet, and his next thought as he fell over toward his wife was "They're going to kill all of us," and that's the last really clear memory that he expressed to me until he remembers vaguely being in the emergency room, but very little of that and then he remembers waking up in the recovery room several hours later.

Mr. SPECTER. Did he say anything to you about who he meant by "they"?

Dr. SHIRES. He didn't say---he didn't comment on it at all.

Mr. SPECTER. Did he describe the nature of the sound which he heard?

Dr. SHIRES. I don't believe he did---no.

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Mr. SPECTER. Did anybody describe the nature of the sound?

Dr. SHIRES. I think Mrs. Connally did. I think she thought it was, if I'm not wrong, she thought it was a loud retort, either a gun or a firecracker. think she thought it was a bullet and I think he did too---thought it was gun---I believe he did too.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, did Governor Connally say anything about hearing President Kennedy say anything?

Dr. SHIRES. No--no, he didn't.

Mr. SPECTER. Did Mrs. Connally say anything about whether President Kennedy said anything?

Dr. SHIRES. No, she didn't. She remembered Mrs. Kennedy saying some things, but she didn't remember anything about the President having uttered a word.

Mr. SPECTER What did Mrs. Kennedy say, according to Mrs. Connally?

Dr. SHIRES. Oh, it's vague, even in my memory, but things to the effect that her husband had been shot and---well, that was really the essence of it. It wasn't phrased that way.

Mr. SPECTER. Focusing on the time sequence---what did Governor Connally say as to the timing, number one, the time he was hit, and number two, the time he had heard a sound, and number three, the time he turned-those three factors? In what sequence did he relate them?

Dr. SHIRES. As he recalled it, he heard a shot, he turned to the right and felt himself receiving a shot--in that order--in a matter of a few seconds

Dr. SHIRES. In the right chest.

Mr. SPECTER Did he make any comment about feeling anything in his wrist?

Dr. SHIRES. No; I don't believe he did.

Mr. SPECTER How about feeling anything in his thigh?

Dr. SHIRES. I don't believe he ever commented on that to me.

Mr. SPECTER Did he say anything else to you at 'that time about his recollections on the day of the assassination?

Dr. SHIRES. No; other than this striking feeling he had after he was hit, that someone was trying to kill all of them---apparently he remembers that quite clearly, right after he was hit, but that's all.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you discuss his recollection of the events of the assassination day with Governor Connally on any other occasion?

Dr. SHIRES. Oh, yes; sporadically, during his convalescence.

Mr. SPECTER What else did he say to you at any other time?

Dr. SHIRES. He was just simply asking questions about things that happened to him in the Emergency Room, in the Operating Room, and he was a little surprised that he didn't recall them better, but this was after he was wounded in here, but that was really the main thing---he was surprised that he didn't remember some of the things--like the cutdowns for blood and that sort of thing that were done to him, and, of course, this is obviously because he was so anoxic at the time.

Mr. SPECTER. Did he ever describe anything in more detail in his recollection

of the things on the day of the assassination?

Dr. SHIRES. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, going back to the first conversation you had with Mrs. Connally on November 22d, did she say anything more to you other than that which you have already testified about?

Dr. SHIRES. No---those were mainly the remarks that she made. I don't remember any others, except---well, no---most of the others were---we were discussing the Governor's condition and outlook and chances for recovery and that sort of thing.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, looking again at Diagram No. 5, what is your professional opinion, if you have one, as to whether Governor Connally's chest injury, wrist injury, and thigh injury were caused by the same bullet?

Dr. SHIRES. Well we all thought, me included, that this was probably one missile, one bullet.

Mr. SPECTER. When you say "we all thought," whom. do you mean by that?

Dr. SHIRES. Dr. Shaw, Dr. Gregory---as we were reconstructing the events

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in the operating room in an attempt to plot out trajectory as best we could, this appeared to be our opinion.

Mr. SPECTER. Did any of your assistants consult with you in those calculations?

Dr. SHIRES. I guess nearly all of them we have listed.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. McClelland, Dr. Baxter and Dr. Patman?

Dr. SHIRES. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. How about Dr. Osborne and Dr. Parker?

Dr. SHIRES. They were working with Dr. Gregory. If they discussed it, I'm sure they did---it was before I got there.

Mr. SPECTER. How about Dr. Boland and Dr. Duke who worked with Dr. Shaw?

Dr. SHIRES. Now, again, I talked to them and they were discussing it as they did the chest procedure, and again thought the same thing. Everyone was under the impression this was one missile---through and through the chest, through and through the arm and the thigh.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there any one of the doctors on either of these three teams who had a different point of view?

Dr. SHIRES. Not that I remember.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you think it is possible that Governor Connally could have been struck by two bullets, one entering his back and emerging from his chest and the second going into his wrist?

Dr. SHIRES. I'm sure it is possible, because missile sites are so variable, depending upon the size of the bullet, the speed at which it travels, whether it was tumbling or not. We have seen all kinds of combinations of entrance and exit wounds and it's just impossible to state with any certainty, looking at a given wound, what the nature of the missile was, so I am sure it is possible.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you think it is possible that, assuming a missile being a bullet 6.5 ram. with a velocity of over 2,000 feet per second, and the distance between the weapon and the victim being approximately 160 to 250 feet, that the same bullet might have passed through President Kennedy, entering his back near the midline and emerging from his neck, and then entering Governor Connally in the back and emerging from his chest, into his wrist, through his wrist and into the thigh?

Dr. SHIRES. I assume that it would be possible. The main thing that would make me think that this was not the case in that he remembers so distinctly hearing a shot and having turned prior to the time he was hit, and in the position he must have been, particularly here in Figure 5, I think it's obvious that he did turn rather sharply to the right and this would make me think that it was a second shot, but this is purely conjecture, of course.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, is there anything, aside from what he told you, that is, anything in the characteristics of the wounds on President Kennedy and the wounds on Governor Connally which would lead you to conclude that it was not the same bullet?

Dr. SHIRES. No--there is nothing. It could have been---purely from the standpoint of the wounds, it is possible.

Mr. SPECTER. You referred just a minute ago to his turning position?

Dr. SHIRES. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Is the postulation of a turning by Governor Connally necessary to explain the point of entry in the back, exit in the chest, entry in the wrist, and exit in the wrist, and entry into the thigh, in order to have that line---to state it differently, is it necessary to postulate turning by the Governor?

Dr. SHIRES. Depending upon the angle of the trajectory---I suppose not. I don't know what the angle of the trajectory was from where the bullet was fired.

Mr. SPECTER. Assuming an angle of declination of approximately 45 degrees?

Dr. SHIRES. This, I don't know without drawing it out, but as long as his right arm is drawn in front of him next to the exit wound on the chest, he is in a sitting position, if the angle of declination was right, then I think he could have received this facing straight forward.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, on the wrist, would that be palm of the wrist, back of the wrist, or how?

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Dr. SHIRES. I don't understand.

Mr. SPECTER. In what position would the wrist have had to be in, in order to have the same bullet make all three wounds?

Dr. SHIRES. The main point was that his arm be up here. In other words, in some fashion, however his hand happened to be turned, but he had to have his right arm raised up next to his chest.

Mr. SPECTER. His wrist would have to be up with the palm down, would it not?

Dr. SHIRES. As depicted here.

Mr. SPECTER. In order for the point of entry to be on the dorsal side?

Dr. SHIRES. That's right, again, which makes it a little more likely he was turning, since ordinarily you pronate your wrist as you turn, whereas, this would have' been a little strange for him to have been sitting like this, but again, depending on what he had in his hand. It's just a question of which side is up.

Mr. SPECTER. But it would be more natural, you say, for the palm to be down in the turning, which was as contrasted with a relaxed sitting position where it would be more likely his palm would be facing in towards his chest area?

Dr. SHIRES. Right.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any knowledge as to the damage which was done to the rib?

Dr. SHIRES. Only from hearsay from Dr. Shaw, that's all.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any knowledge as to what fragments there were in the chest, bullet fragments, if any?

Dr. SHIRES. No, again except from postoperative X-rays, there is a small fragment remaining, but the initial fragments I think Dr. Shaw saw before I arrived.

Mr. SPECTER. How about the fragments in the wrist, do you have any knowledge of that?

Dr. SHIRES. Again, there were small fragments which I saw during the procedure on the wrist, but I was not directly involved in that procedure.

Mr. SPECTER. What opinion do you have, if any, Dr. Shires, as to whether the wound in the thigh might have been inflicted from a missile that did not pass through any other part of the Governor's body, assuming that it was a 6.5-mm. bullet with a muzzle velocity of 2,000 feet per second, traveling approximately 160 to 250 feet between the end of the weapon and the point of impact on the thigh?

Dr. SHIRES. Well, again, in that wound---it was strange in that the hole in the skin was too large for the amount of damage inflicted on the underlying tissues, so that had this been the case, this would have had to have been a tangential wound. Had it been a tangential wound, then it's possible that small fragments could have gone into bone as it did and that the damage to the soft tissues was done only by that small fragment, so that the major portion of the bullet simply hit the skin in a tangent and went on in its course elsewhere.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, is it possible that the bullet could have hit Governor Connally with the thigh being the initial point of impact and do the damage which was done there with the high velocity missile that I have just described for you?

Dr. SHIRES. Is it possible to get a wound like that?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes, sir.

Dr. SHIRES. Yes; as long as it's on a tangent.

Mr. SPECTER. Is it likely to receive a wound like that from a high velocity weapon of 2,000 feet per second and at about 160 to 250 feet?

Dr. SHIRES. If it's a tangential wound, tangential wounds can be very strange. A large bullet can cause a small hole if its on a tangent or a small bullet can rip out a fairly large hole on a tangent. It just depends on the time of contact and the angle of contact with the skin. That's why it's awfully hard to predict.

Mr. SPECTER. So that wound could have either been the first striking of the Governor from the bullet, or it could have been from a missile whose velocity

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was spent after going through President Kennedy and through the Governor's body and wrist and then caused that wound in the thigh?

Dr. SHIRES. That's right, if it was a tangential bullet.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shires, have you ever been contacted by any representative of the Federal Government prior to today?

Dr. SHIRES. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And who was it who contacted you?

Dr. SHIRES. I don't recall the name---it was two individuals from the Secret Service. They presented their credentials at the time to the administration and then subsequently to me and they were given copies of our operative reports, statements made by people concerned with the President and Governor at the time, and then subsequently one of those same two men from Secret Service returned and charted the entrance and exit wounds which you have described previously, or we have looked at previously in these five diagrams.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever been interviewed by any other representative of the Federal Government before today?

Dr. SHIRES. No; not in person. I discussed over the phone with the FBI--- well, that was with regard to Oswald. I discussed over the phone what happened to the bullet that was taken from Oswald, but not with regard to the President or the Governor---no.

Mr. SPECTER. On your prior interviews by the Secret Service, sir, did they cover the same subjects which you and I have gone over today, or were other subjects covered?

Dr. SHIRES. No; essentially the same subjects.

Mr. SPECTER. And was any different information given to you by the Secret Service at that time of either of those two occasions?

Dr. SHIRES. No; the same as we have discussed here.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, prior to the time when you were sworn in and the court reporter started to take the deposition in shorthand form, did you and I have a brief discussion about the purpose of the deposition and the subject matters of interest to the Commission?

Dr. SHIRES. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And was the same information given by you to me during the course of that informal discussion as you have testified to on the record here this afternoon?

Dr. SHIRES. Yes; in less detail.

Mr. SPECTER. And do you have anything which you would care to add which

you think might be helpful to the Commission in its work?

Dr. SHIRES. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, fine, that concludes the deposition, thank you very much, Dr. Shires.

Dr. SHIRES. Are you interested in Oswald---that's my only other question?

Mr. SPECTER. Well, let's talk about it a little off the record.

(Discussion between Counsel Specter and witness Dr. Shires off the record at this point.)

Mr. SPECTER. Let's go back on the record. Dr. Shires, before concluding the deposition, permit me to ask you Just a few additional questions about care for Lee Harvey Oswald.

First of all, I again show you Commission Exhibit No. 392, the last two pages which purport to he an operative record of Parkland Memorial Hospital on November 24, 1963, concerning treatment of Mr. Oswald, with you listed as the surgeon, and I'll ask you to take a look at these two sheets and tell us whether or not that is a report which you prepared on treatment of Mr. Oswald?

Dr. SHIRES. Yes, it is.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you outline in a very general way what his condition was when you first saw him?

Dr. SHIRES. When he was first seen in the emergency room, he was unconscious, without blood pressure or pulse, but with an audible heart beat, and attempts, feeble though they were, attempts in respiration. There was an entrance wound over the left lower chest and the bullet could be felt subcutaneously over the lower chest lateral projecting this trajectory through the body and looking

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at his general condition, it was fairly obvious that the bullet had transgressed virtually every major organ and vessel in the abdominal cavity, which later proved to be the case.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you do for him?

Dr. SHIRES. He was given resuscitation, including an endotracheal tube, intravenous fluids, blood, moved to the operating room, prepared, draped, an abdominal incision, laparotomy made, just as is described in the record. The injuries were in fact mortal and involved both major vessels in the abdomen, the aorta, the inferior vena cava, and there had been massive exanguinating hemorrhage into the abdomen--in and around the abdomen.

After securing control of all the many, many bleeding points and the bleeding organs, he never had regained consciousness. Approximately 15, 16--whatever it is, approximately, pints of blood had been given, and he had suffered irreparable anoxia from the initial massive blood loss incident to the gunshot wound. When his heart did stop, even though we felt this was a terminal cessation of heartbeat, efforts were made at resuscitation by open heart massage and all that went with it, but never once was an effective heartbeat obtained, so that our initial impression was that it was correct in that this was simply cardiac death and not cardiac arrest.

Mr. SPECTER a. Did you come close to saving him, in the vernacular---in lay terms?

Dr. SHIRES. There has never been recorded in medical literature recovery from a wound like this. There was too much blood lost too fast. Had the injury occurred fight outside the operating room, it might have been possible to reduce the period of anoxia that comes from overwhelming blood loss like this, sufficiently to have corrected it. We did control all the bleeding points with a lot of difficulty, finally all bleeding points were controlled and this was a mortal wound--there was no question about that.

Mr. SPECTER. Are the details of your observations, examination, and treatment of Mr. Oswald set forth in the two pages of this report which I have just shown you in Commission No. 392?

Dr. SHIRES. Yes, the operative reports that are contained there.

Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much, Dr. Shires.

Dr. SHIRES. Thank you.

Dr. Richard Brooks Dulany

Page 113

TESTIMONY OF DR. RICHARD BROOKS DULANY

Dr. JENKINS Volume VI

TESTIMONY OF DR. MARION THOMAS JENKINS

The testimony of Dr. Marion Thomas Jenkins was taken at 5:30 p.m., on March 25, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that Dr. M. T. Jenkins has appeared in response to a letter request in connection with the inquiry of the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy, to testify concerning his observations and medical treatment performed by him on President Kennedy, and with this preliminary statement of purpose, would you stand up, please, Dr. Jenkins, and raise your right hand.

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you give before the President's Commission in this deposition proceeding, will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Dr. JENKINS. I do.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you state your full name for the record, please?

Dr. JENKINS. Marion Thomas Jenkins.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your profession, please?

Dr. JENKINS. I'm a physician.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you licensed by the State of Texas to practice medicine?

Dr. JENKINS. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is your specialty, Dr. Jenkins?

Dr. JENKINS. Anesthesiology.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you outline your educational background for me, please?

Dr. JENKINS. I am a graduate of the University of Texas in 1937. I have a B.A. degree and an M.D. degree from the University of Texas Medical Branch at Galveston in 1940, rotating internship at the University of Kansas Hospital, Kansas City, Kans., 1940-41; Assistant Residency in Internal Medicine, John Sealy Hospital in Galveston, Tex., 1941-42; active duty in the U.S. Navy as a Medical Officer, 1942 to 1946; Resident in Surgery--Parkland Hospital, Dallas, 1946-47; Resident in anesthesiology in the Massachusetts General Hospital, Boston, 1947-48; and Director of the Department of Anesthesiology, Parkland Hospital and Parkland Memorial Hospital, 1948 to the present; Professor and Chairman of the Department of Anesthesiology, University of Texas, Southwestern Medical School--since 1951. Diplomate--other certification, do you want this?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes, what Boards are you certified?

Dr. JENKINS. I am a Diplomate of the American Board of Anesthesiology and also fellow of the American College of Anesthesiologists.

Mr. SPECTER. And what year were you certified by the American Board?

Dr. JENKINS. 1952.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to assist in the treatment of President Kennedy on November 22, 1963?

Dr. JENKINS. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And will you relate briefly the circumstances surrounding your being called into that case?

Dr. JENKINS. Well, I was in the dining room with other members of the hospital staff when we heard the Chief of Surgery, Dr. Tom Shires, being paged "Stat." This is a rather unusual call, for the Chief of any service to be called "Stat" as this is the emergency call.

Mr. SPECTER. What does that mean, "Stat"?

Dr. JENKINS. "Stat" means emergency, that's just a code word that has been used for years in medical terms. He was paged twice this way, and one of the

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surgical residents, Dr. Ronald Jones, answered the phone, thinking some thing bad must be up and that he would call the Chief of Surgery. I was sitting near the telephone and Dr. Jones immediately came back by with very anguished look and the color was drained from his face-- I'm sure I had that impression, and he said, "The President has been shot and is on his way to the hospital." At the same time we heard the sirens of the ambulance as they turned into the driveway from Harry Hines into the hospital drive, and it was obvious that this was the car coming in because the ambulance sirens usually stop in the street, but these came on clear to the building.

Mr. SPECTER. That's Harry Hines Boulevard right in front of the hospital

Dr. JENKINS. Yes; I ran up the stairs to the Anesthesia Department, that's on the second floor-one floor above the dining room, where I was, and notified two members of the Department, the first two I saw, my Chief Associate, Dr. A. H. Giesecke, Jr., and Dr. Jackie Hunt, that the President had been shot and was being brought to the emergency room and for them to bring all the resuscitative equipment we have including an anesthesia machine. The emergency room is set up well, but we are used to working with our own equipment and I asked them to bring it down and I ran down the back stairs, two flights down, and I arrived in the emergency room just after or right behind him, being wheeled in, I guess.

Mr. SPECTER At about what time did you arrive at the emergency room

Dr. JENKINS. Oh, this was around 12:30-12:35 to 12:40. I shouldn't be indefinite about this--in our own specialty practice, we watch the clock closely and there are many things we have to keep up with, but I didn't get that time exactly, I'll admit.

Mr. SPECTER Who was present at the time of your arrival in the emergency room, if anyone?

Dr. JENKINS. The hallway was loaded with people.

Mr. SPECTER. What medical personnel were in attendance?

Dr. JENKINS. Including Mrs. Kennedy, I recognized, and Secret Service men, I didn't know whether to block the way or get out of it, as it turned out. Dr. James Carrico and Dr. Dulany-Dick Dulany, I guess you have his name, and several nurses were in the room.

Mr. SPECTER. Could you identify the nurses?

Dr. JENKINS. Well, not really. I could identify them only having later looked around and identified from my own record that I have, the names of all who were there later. Now, whether they are the same ones when I first went there, I don't know. I have all the names in my report, it seemed to me

Mr. SPECTER. Could you now identify all of the nurses from your later observations of them?

Dr. JENKINS. Well, I can identify who was in there at the close of the procedure, that is, the doctors, as well as those who were helping.

Mr. SPECTER. Fine, would you do that for us, please?

Dr. JENKINS. These included a Mrs. or Miss Patricia Hutton and Miss Diana Bowron, B-o-w-r-o-n (spelling), and a Miss Henchliffe--I don't know her first name, but I do know it is Henchliffe.

Mr. SPECTER Margaret?

Dr. JENKINS. Margaret---certainly. Those three--there were probably some student nurses too, whom I didn't recognize. Shall I continue?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes, please. Have you now covered all the people you recollect as being in the room?

Dr. JENKINS. Well, as I came into the room, I saw only the, actually--you know, in the haste of the coming of the President, two doctors whom I recognized, and there were other people and I have identified all I remember

Mr. SPECTER What did you observe as to the President's condition when you arrived in the emergency room?

Dr. JENKINS. Well, I was aware of what he was in an agonal state. This is not a too unfamiliar state that we see in the Service, as much trauma as we see, that is, he had the agonal respiratory gasp made up of jerking movements of the mylohyoid group of muscles. These are referred to sometimes as chin jerk, tracheal tug or agonal muscles of respiration. He had this

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characteristic of respiration. His eyes were opened and somewhat exophthalmic and color was greatly suffused, cyanotic---a purplish cyanosis.

Still, we have patients in the state, as far as cyanosis and agonal type respiration, who are resuscitatable. Of course, you don't step at this time and think, "Well, this is a hopeless circumstance,"--because one in this state can often be resusciated--this represents the activities prior to one's demise sometimes, and if it can be stepped, such as the patient is oxygenated again and circulation reinstituted, he can be saved.

Dr. Carrico had just introduced an endotracheal tube, I'm very proud of him for this because it's not as easy as it sounds. At times and under the circumstances--it was harder--he had. just completed a 3-month rotation on the anesthesiology service, and I thought this represented good background training for a smart individual, and he told me he had a cuff on the endotracheal tube and he introduced it below the wound.

The reason I said this, of course, this is a reflex--there is a tube, the endotracheal tube, if it is pushed down a little too far it can go into the right main stem of the bronchus impairing respiration from both lungs, or both chest.

There was in the room an intermittent positive pressure breathing apparatus, which can be used to respire for a patient. As I connected this up, however, Dr. Carrico and I connected it up to give oxygen by artificial respiration, Dr. Giesecke and Dr. Hunt arrived on the scene with the anesthesia machine and I connected it up instead with something I am more familiar with--not for anesthesia, I must insist on that--it was for the oxygenation, the ability to control ventilation with 100 percent oxygen.

As I came in there, other people came in also. This is my recollection. Now, by this time I was in familiar surroundings, despite the anguish of the circumstance.

Despite the unusual circumstance, in terms of the distinguished personage who was the patient, I think the people who had gathered or who had congregated were so accustomed to doing resuscitative procedures of this nature that they knew where to fit into the resuscitation team without having a preconceived or predirected plan, because, as obviously--some people were doing things not necessarily in their specialty, but there was the opening and there was the necessity for this being done.

There were three others who came in as I did who recognized at once the neck wound, in fact, where the wound was, would indicate that we would have serious pulmonary problems unless a tracheotomy tube was put in. This is one way of avoiding pushing air out through a fractured trachea and down into each chest cavity, which would cause a pneumothorax or a collapse of the lungs. These were doctors Malcolm Perry, Charley Baxter, and Robert McClelland, who with Dr. Carrico's help, I believe, started the tracheotomy.

About this time Drs. Kemp Clark and Paul Peters came in, and Dr. Peters because of the appearance of the right chest, the obvious physical characteristics of a pneumothorax, put in a closed chest drainage chest tube. Because I felt no peripheral pulse and was not aware of any pulse, I reported this to Dr. Clark and he started closed chest cardiac massage.

There were other people--one which started an I.V. in a cutdown in the right leg and one a cutdown in the left arm. Two of my department connected up the cardioscope, in which we had electrical silence on the cardioscope as Dr. Clark started closed chest massage. That's the sequence of events as I reconstructed them that day and dictated them on my report, which you have here, I think.

Mr. SPECTER Speaking of your report, Dr. Jenkins, permit me to show you a group of papers heretofore identified as Commission Exhibit No. 392 which has also been identified by Mr. Price, the hospital Administrator, as being photostatic copies of original reports in his possession and controlled as Custodian of Records, and I show you what purports to be a report from you to Mr. Price, dated November 22, 1963, and ask you if in fact this 2-page report was submitted by you to Mr. Price?

Dr. JENKINS. Yes; it was.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, going back to the wound which you observed in the neck, did you see that wound before the tracheotomy was performed?

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Dr. JENKINS. Yes; I did, because I was just connecting up the endotracheal tube to the machine at the time and that's when Dr. Carrico said there was a wound in the neck and I looked at it.

Mr. SPECTER Would you describe that wound as specifically as you can?

Dr. JENKINS. Well, I'm afraid my description of it would not be as accurate, of course, as that of the surgeons who were doing the tracheotomy, because my look was a quick look before connecting up the endotracheal tube to the apparatus to help in ventilation and respiration for the patient, and I was aware later in the day, as I should have put it in the report, that I thought this was a wound of exit because it was not a clean wound, and by "clean" clearly demarcated, round, punctate wound which is the usual wound of an entrance wound, made by a missile and at some speed. Of course, entrance wounds with a lobbing type missile, can make a jagged wound also, but I was of the impression and I recognized I had the impression it was an exit wound. However, my mental appreciation for a wound--for the wound in the neck, I believe, was sort of--was overshadowed by recognition of the wound in the scalp and skull plate.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you now described the wound in the neck as specifically as you can at this moment?

Dr. JENKINS. I believe so.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, will you now describe the wound which you observed in the head?

Dr. JENKINS. Almost by the time I was--had the time to pay more attention to the wound in the head, all of these other activities were under way. I was busy connecting up an apparatus to respire for the patient, exerting manual pressure on the breathing bag or anesthesia apparatus, trying to feel for a pulse in the neck, and then reaching up and feeling for one in the temporal area, seeing about connecting the cardioscope or directing its being connected, and then turned attention to the wound in the head.

Now, Dr. Clark had begun closed chest cardiac massage at this time and I was aware of the magnitude of the wound, because with each compression of the chest, there was a great rush of blood from the skull wound. Part of the brain was herniated; I really think part of the cerebellum, as I recognized it, was herniated from the wound; there was part of the brain tissue, broken fragments of the brain tissue on the drapes of the cart on which the President lay.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any wounds immediately below the massive loss of skull which you have described?

Dr. JENKINS. On the right side?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes, sir.

Dr. JENKINS. No---I don't know whether this is right or not, but I thought there was a wound on the left temporal area, right in the hairline and right above the zygomatic process.

Mr. SPECTER. The autopsy report discloses no such development, Dr. Jenkins.

Dr. JENKINS. Well, I was feeling for---I was palpating here for a pulse to see whether the closed chest cardiac massage was effective or not and this probably was some blood that had come from the other point and so I thought there was a wound there also.

Mr. SPECTER. At approximately what time was President Kennedy pronounced dead?

Dr. JENKINS. Well, this was pronounced, we know the exact time as 1300, according to my watch, at least, at the time.

Mr. SPECTER. And what, in your opinion, was the cause of death?

Dr. JENKINS. Cerebral injury--brain injury.

Mr. SPECTER. Was President Kennedy ever turned over during the course of this treatment at Parkland?

Dr. JENKINS. No.

Mr. SPECTER Why was he not turned over, Dr. Jenkins?

Dr. JENKINS. Oh, I think this was beyond our prerogative completely. I think as we pronounced the President dead, those in attendance who were there just sort of melted away, well, I guess "melted" is the wrong word, but we felt like we were intruders and left. I'm sure that this was considerably beyond our prerogative, and the facts were we knew he had a fatal wound, and I think my

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own personal feeling was that this was--would have been meddlesome on anybody's part after death to have done any further search.

Mr. SPECTER. Was any examination of his back made before death, to your knowledge?

Dr. JENKINS. No, no; I'm sure there wasn't.

Mr. SPECTER. Did he remain on the stretcher cart at all times while he was being cared for?

Dr. JENKINS. Yes, sir. Can I say something that isn't in the report here, or not?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes; let's go off the record a minute.

(Discussion off the record between Counsel Specter and the witness, Dr. Jenkins.)

Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that we are back on the record and Dr. Jenkins has made an interesting observation about the time of the declaration of death, and I will ask you, Dr. Jenkins, for you to repeat for the record what you have just said off the record.

Dr. JENKINS. As the resuscitative maneuvers were begun, such as "chest cardiac massage," there was with each compression of the sternum, a gush of blood from the skull wound, which indicated there was massive vascular damage in the skull and the brain, as well as brain tissue damage, and we recognized by this time that the patient was beyond the point of resuscitation, that he was in fact dead, and this was substantiated by getting a silent electrical pattern on the electrocardiogram, the cardioscope that was connected up.

However, for a period of minutes, but I can't now define exactly, since I didn't put this in a report, after we knew he was dead, we continued attempted resuscitative maneuvers.

When we saw the two priests who arrived in the corridor outside the emergency room where this was taking place, I went to the door and asked one of those after turning over my ventilation, my respiration job to another one of my department-and asked him what is the proper time to declare one dead. That is, I am not a Catholic and I was not sure of the time for the last rites. As I remember now, he said, "The time that the soul leaves the body--is not at exactly the time that medical testimony might say that death was declared." There would be a period of time and so if we wished to declare him dead at that time they would still have the final rites.

Mr. SPECTER Did they then have the final rites after the time he was declared dead medically?

Dr. JENKINS. Well, just a minute now--I suspect that was hazy to me that day--I'm not sure, it's still hazy. This was a very personal---on the part of the very anguished occasion, and Mrs. Kennedy had come back into the room and most of the people were beginning to leave because they felt like this was such a grief stricken and private affair that they should not be there. It was real intrusion even after they put forth such efforts at resuscitation and I'm not sure now whether the priests came in while I was still doing the resuscitative procedure, respiration at least, and while Dr. Clark was still doing the other. My memory is that we had stopped. I was still present, however, and that's the reason I'm not clear, because I hadn't left the room and I was still there as the rites were performed and a prayer was said.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Jenkins, would your observation of the wound and your characterization of it as an exit hole be consistent with a set of facts which I will ask you to assume for purposes of giving me your view or opinion.

Assume, first of all, if you will, that President Kennedy had a wound on the upper right posterior thorax just above the upper border of the scapula, measuring 14 cm. from the tip of the right acromion process and 14 cm. below the tip of the right mastoid process, and that the missile was a 6.5 mm. jacketed bullet fired from a weapon having a muzzle velocity of approximately 2,000 feet per second and approximately 160 to 250 feet from the President, and that after entering the President's body at the point indicated, the missile traveled between two strap muscles and through a fascia plane without violating the pleura cavity, and then struck the right side of the trachea and exited through

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the throat, would the throat wound which you observed be consistent with such a wound inflicted in the manner I have just described?

Dr. JENKINS. As far as I know, it wouldn't be inconsistent with it, Mr. Specter.

Mr. SPECTER What has your experience been with gunshot wounds, that is, to what extent have you had experience with such wounds?

Dr. JENKINS. Well, having been Chief of the Anesthesia Service here for this 16 years, we have a rather large trauma emergency service, and so I see gunshot wounds many times a week. I'm afraid I couldn't hazard a guess at the moment as to how many we see a year, and I'm afraid probably if I knew, I would not like to admit to this number, but I do go further in saying that my main interest is not in the tracks of the wounds. My main interest is what physiological changes that they have caused to the patient that I am to anesthetize or a member of the department is to anesthetize, what has happened to the cardiovascular system, respiratory, and neurological, and so I am aware of the wounds of entrance and exit only by a peripheral part of my knowledge and activities during the time.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever had any formal training in ballistics or in exit wounds or entrance wounds--bullet wounds?

Dr. JENKINS. No, I have not.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you talked to any representative of the Federal Government at any time prior to today?

Mr. JENKINS. Oh, there was a man whose name I don't remember now, who showed what looked like the proper credentials from the FBI, who came to ask only whether the report I had submitted to Mr. Price for the hospital record or for Mr. Price's record constituted all the reports I had. That's the only time and that was the extent of our conversation, I think.

Mr. SPECTER. And is that the only written record you have of your participation in the treatment of the President?

Dr. JENKINS. Oh, I submitted one to the Dean of the Medical School, essentially the same, and a very little more. I don't think you have that. I don't know whether you want it or not.

Mr. SPECTER. Yes, I would like to see it.

Dr. JENKINS. It is essentially the same report--however---can I ask you something off of the record here?

Mr. SPECTER. Sure.

(Discussion between Counsel Specter and the witness, Dr. Jenkins, off the record.)

Mr. SPECTER. The record will show that we have been off the record on a couple of matters which I am going to now put on the record, but I will ask the court reporter to identify this as Dr. Jenkins' Exhibit No. 36.

(Instrument referred to marked by the Reporter as Dr. Jenkins' Exhibit No. 36, for identification.)

Mr. SPECTER. I will ask you, Dr. Jenkins, for the record to identify this as a report which you submitted to Dean Gill.

Dr. JENKINS. Yes, it is.

Mr. SPECTER. And is this in conjunction with the report you submitted to Mr. Price--do these reports constitute all the writings you have on your participation in the treatment of President Kennedy?

Dr. JENKINS. Yes; that's right.

Mr. SPECTER. One of the comments we were just discussing off the record---I would like to put on the record, Dr. Jenkins, is the question as to whether or not the wound in the neck would have been fatal in your opinion, absent the head wound. What would your view of that be?

Mr. JENKINS. Well, from my knowledge of the wound in the neck, this would not have been fatal, except for one thing, and that is--you have not told me whether the wound with its point of entrance and point of exit had contacted the vertebral column in its course?

Mr. SPECTER. It did not.

Dr. JENKINS. In that case I would not expect this wound to have been fatal.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your view, Dr. Jenkins, as to whether the wounds which you observed were caused by one or two bullets?

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Dr. JENKINS. I felt quite sure at the time that there must have been two bullets--two missiles.

Mr. SPECTER. And, Dr. Jenkins, what was your reason for that?

Dr. JENKINS. Because the wound with the exploded area of the scalp, as I interpreted it being exploded, I would interpret it being a wound of exit, and the appearance of the wound in the neck, and I also thought it was a wound of exit.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever changed any of your original opinions in connection with the wounds received by President Kennedy ?

Dr. JENKINS. I guess so. The first day I had thought because of his pneumothorax, that his wound must have gone--that the one bullet must have traversed his pleura, must have gotten into his lung cavity, his chest cavity, I mean, and from what you say now, I know it did not go that way. I thought it did.

Mr. SPECTER. Aside from that opinion, now, have any of your other opinions about the nature of his wounds or the sources of the wounds been changed in any way ?

Dr. JENKINS. No; one other. I asked you a little bit ago if there was a wound in the left temporal area, right above the zygomatic bone in the hairline because there was blood there and I thought there might have been a wound there (indicating).

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating the left temporal area?

Dr. JENKINS. Yes; the left temporal, which could have been a point of entrance and exit here (indicating), but you have answered that for me. This was my only other question about it.

Mr. SPECTER. So, that those two points are the only ones on which your opinions have been changed since the views you originally formulated?

Dr. JENKINS. Yes, I think so.

Mr. SPECTER. On the President's injuries?

Dr. JENKINS. Yes, I think so.

Mr. SPECTER. Is the conversation you had with that Secret Service Agent the only time you were interviewed by anyone from the Federal Government prior to today about this subject?

Dr. JENKINS. As far as I remember--I don't believe so.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, you say that was the only time you were interviewed?

Dr. JENKINS. Yes, as far as I remember--I have had no formal interviews. I have been asked--there have been some people calling on the phone. As you know, there were many calls from various sources all over the country after that, wanting to know whether we had done this method of treatment or some other method and what principles we followed.

Mr. SPECTER. But the only one you can identify as being from the Federal Government is the one you have already related from the Secret Service?

Dr. JENKINS. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And did you and I have a very brief conversation before the deposition started today, when you gave me some of your views which you expounded and expanded upon during the course of the deposition on the record?

Dr. JENKINS. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And is there anything which you think of to add that you believe would be of some assistance or any assistance to the President's Commission in its inquiry?

Dr. JENKINS. I believe not, Mr. Specter.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, thank you very much, Dr. Jenkins.

Dr. JENKINS. All right.

Ronald Coy Jones

Page 51

TESTIMONY OF DR. RONALD COY JONES

The testimony of Dr. Ronald Coy Jones was taken at 10:20 a.m., on March 24, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

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Dr. Dziemian Volume V

TESTIMONY OF DR. ARTHUR J. DZIEMIAN

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Dziemian.

Mr. DULLES. Doctor, will you raise your right hand, please? Do you solemnly swear the testimony you give in this proceeding is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

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Dr. DZIEMIAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Dziemian, as you know, the purpose of the proceeding is to question you concerning the experiments which were performed at Edgewood Arsenal which may shed light on the assassination of President Kennedy. With that brief statement of purpose, will you state your full name for the record, please?

Dr. DZIEMIAN. Arthur J. Dziemian.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your profession or occupation, sir?

Dr. DZIEMIAN. I am a physiologist at the U.S. Army Chemical Research and Development Laboratories, and am chief of the Biophysics Division.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you outline your educational background briefly, please?

Dr. DZIEMIAN. Yes; A.B. and Ph.D. from Princeton, Ph.D. in 1939. I was national research fellow at the University of Pennsylvania in the physiology department of the medical school and fellow in anatomy at Johns Hopkins University Medical School.

Mr. SPECTER. In a general way, what have your professional activities been since 1939?

Dr. DZIEMIAN. Since 1939?

Well, these fellowships that I had. Then I went to Edgewood Arsenal, was there for a few months and then went into the Army, was in the Army for 3 years, in the sanitary corps, officer in the sanitary corps, and then I returned to Edgewood Arsenal in 1947 and in 1947 I went into wound ballistics work and have been in it since 1947.

Mr. SPECTER. And how long have you been chief of the Biophysics Division?

Dr. DZIEMIAN. Since November of 1959.

Mr. DULLES. Where is this Biophysics Division?

Dr. DZIEMIAN. U.S. Army Chemical Research and Development Laboratories, Edgewood Arsenal, Md.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you describe in a general way the tests which are performed at the Edgewood Arsenal, please?

Dr. DZIEMIAN. Yes; well, our mission, the division's mission is to study the antipersonnel effects of munitions, including kinetic energy munitions, incendiary, and some chemical munitions.

Mr. SPECTER. Is it the regular function of your unit then to test the effects of bullet wounds on various parts of the human body?

Dr. DZIEMIAN. Yes; it is.

Mr. SPECTER. And does Dr. Olivier function under your direction in his capacity as chief of the Wounds Ballistics Branch?

Dr. DZIEMIAN. Yes; his branch is one of the branches of the Biophysics Division.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you been present today to hear the full testimony of Dr. Olivier?

Dr. DZIEMIAN. Yes; I have.

Mr. SPECTER. Were the tests which he described, performed under your general supervision and direction as his superior?

Dr. DZIEMIAN. Yes; they were.

Mr. SPECTER. As to the underlying facts which those tests disclosed, do you have any details to add as to results which you think would be helpful or significant for the Commission to know?

Dr. DZIEMIAN. Well, I think that Dr. Olivier described them pretty well on the whole, got all the details in.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you agree with the recitation of the detailed findings, then, as described by Dr. Olivier?

Dr. DZIEMIAN. I do, yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Then moving to the general topic of reconstructing the events in terms of what professional opinion you may have as to what actually occurred at Dallas, permit me to ask you some questions in terms of the known medical facts, and in the light of the results of this series of tests which you have performed. First of all, have you had access to the autopsy report on President Kennedy?

Dr. DZIEMIAN. Yes, I have.

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Mr. SPECTER. And have you had access to the same general information described by Dr. Olivier on the wounds inflicted on Governor Connally?

Dr. DZIEMIAN. Yes, I have. I did not speak to the surgeons. I was not here at that time. My information on Dr. Connally's wounds----

Mr. DULLES. Governor Connally.

Dr. DZIEMIAN. Governor Connally, are from the reports and from discussions with Dr. Light or Dr. Olivier.

Mr. SPECTER. So that all of the information available to Dr. Light and Dr. Olivier obtained through consultations with Governor Connally's doctors, Dr. Shaw and Dr. Gregory, have been passed on to you? In addition, you have had access to the records of Parkland Hospital on Governor Connally's treatment there?

Dr. DZIEMIAN. That is right.

Mr. SPECTER. And have you had an opportunity to observe certain films known as the Zapruder films showing the assassination?

Dr. DZIEMIAN. No; I did not see those.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you had, then, brought to your attention the approximate. distances involved from the situation here, to wit; that the shots were fired from a 6th floor window at a distance of approximately 160 to 250 feet at a moving vehicle, striking the Governor and the President at angles estimated from 25 to 45 degrees, the angle of impact on President Kennedy being given by the autopsy surgeon as a 45-degree angle of declination, and the angle on Governor Connally being described as 25 to 27 degrees?

Dr. DZIEMIAN. Yes, I did----

Mr. DULLES. You are speaking now of the first two wounds, aren't you?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. You are not speaking now of the brain wound at all, are you?

Mr. SPECTER. Correct, Mr. Dulles. The wound that I am referring to on the President is the wound which entered the back of his neck and exited from the front part of his neck in accordance with the prior testimony of the doctors in the case.

Now, based on the tests which have been performed, and the other factors which I will ask you to assume, since you weren't present; for purposes of expressing an opinion, what is your opinion as to whether all of the wounds on Governor Connally were inflicted by one bullet?

Dr. DZIEMIAN. My opinion is that it is most probably so, that one bullet produced all the wounds on Governor Connally.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is your opinion as to whether the wound through President Kennedy's neck and all of the wounds on Governor Connally were produced by one bullet?

Dr. DZIEMIAN. I think the probability is very good that it is, that all the wounds were caused by one bullet.

Mr. SPECTER. When you say all the wounds, are you excluding from that the head wound on President Kennedy?

Dr. DZIEMIAN. I am excluding the head wound, yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is the reasoning behind your conclusion that one bullet caused the neck wound on President Kennedy and all of the other wounds on Governor Connally?

Dr. DZIEMIAN. I am saying that the probability is high that that was so.

Mr. SPECTER. What is the reason for your assessment of that high probability?

Dr. DZIEMIAN. The same reasons that Dr. Olivier gave, based on the same information, that especially the wound to the wrist. That higher velocity strike on the wrist would be caused by the bullet slowing down by going through all this tissue would cause more damage to the wrist and also more damage to the thigh.

Mr. SPECTER. Had the bullet only gone through Governor Connally's chest then, what is your opinion as to whether or not there would have been greater damage to the Governor's wrist?

Dr. DZIEMIAN. I think there would have been greater damage to the Governor's wrist, and also to the thigh from the information, from the experiments obtained by Dr. Olivier's group.

Mr. DULLES. Could I ask a question here? Does that take into account any

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evidence as to the angle of fire and the relative positions of the two men, or excluding that?

Dr. DZIEMIAN. Excluding that. I do not know enough details about that to make an opinion on that. This is just on the basis of the velocities of the bullets.

Mr. SPECTER. Would the nature of the wounds on the Governor's wrist and thigh, then, be explained by the hypothesis that the bullet passed through the President first, then went through the Governor's chest before striking the wrist and in turn the thigh?

Dr. DZIEMIAN. I think that could be a good explanation.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your opinion as to whether or not a fragment of a bullet striking the President's head could have caused the wound to Governor Connally's wrist?

Dr. DZIEMIAN. I think it is unlikely.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your opinion as to whether or not Governor Connally's wrist wound could have been caused by a pristine bullet?

Dr. DZIEMIAN. That is unlikely, too. Our results with pristine bullets were very different from the wound that the Governor had.

Mr. SPECTER. Based on the description provided to you of the nature of the Wound in the Governor's back, what is your opinion as to whether, or not, that was a pristine bullet or had yaw in it, just on the basis of the nature of the wound on the Governor's back?

Dr. DZIEMIAN. It could very well have yaw in it because of the rather large wound that was produced in the Governor's back. The wound from a nonyawing bullet could be considerably smaller.

Mr. SPECTER. For the record, would you define in lay terms what yaw means?

Dr. DZIEMIAN. It is the procession of the bullet. The bullet is wobbling on its axis, so that as it wobbles, it presents different presented areas to the target or to the air, and this changes the drag coefficient of the bullet. It will slow down the bullet more both in the air and in tissues, in the yawing.

Mr. SPECTER. What is the course of a bullet, then, which is a pristine bullet or the nature of the bullet immediately after coming out of the muzzle of a rifle before it strikes anything?

Dr. DZIEMIAN. A pristine bullet is normally stable. It does not wobble in the air. It presents the same presented area along most of its trajectory until it slows down, so that the drag coefficient in air or in the tissue of this type of bullet is less than the drag coefficient----

Mr. SPECTER. What do you mean by drag coefficient?

Dr. DZIEMIAN. It is a measurement of the resistance of the target material or the air to the bullet. The greater the drag coefficient, the more the resistance to the bullet, the more the bullet slows down within a given time.

Mr. SPECTER. So would a bullet with yaw cause a greater or lesser hole on the surface which it strikes than a bullet without yaw?

Dr. DZIEMIAN. It would normally cause a greater hole. It usually would have more presented area, that is more the surface of the bullet would hit the skin.

Mr. SPECTER. And would a bullet with yaw decrease in velocity to a greater, lesser, or the same extent as a bullet without yaw?

Dr. DZIEMIAN. It would decrease in velocity to a greater extent.

Mr. SPECTER. Whether it passed through air or----

Dr. DZIEMIAN. Or through tissue, and the important thing in tissue is that it transfers more energy to the target than would a nonyawing bullet.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Dziemian, Governor Connally testified that he experienced the sensation of a striking blow on his back which he described as being similar to a hard punch received from a doubled-up fist. Do you have an opinion as to whether that sensation would necessarily occur immediately upon impact of a wound such as that received by Governor Connally, or could there be a delayed reaction in sensing that feeling?

Dr. DZIEMIAN. I don't have too much of an opinion on that. All I can say is that some people are struck by bullets and do not even know they are hit. This happens in wartime. But I don't know about that.

Mr. SPECTER. So that it is possible in some situations there is some delay in reaction?

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Dr. DZIEMIAN. I couldn't say.

Mr. SPECTER. Is it a highly individual matter as to the reaction of an individual on that subject?

Dr. DZIEMIAN. I don't know.

Mr. DULLES. But take a wound like the wrist wound of Governor Connally. He couldn't get that without knowing it, could he?

Dr. DZIEMIAN. I think he said that he didn't know he had a wrist wound until much later.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. SPECTER. I have no further questions of Dr. Dziemian, Commissioner Dulles.

Mr. DULLES. Thank you very much.

Dr. Frederick W. Light, Jr.

Dr. GREGORY Volume VI

TESTIMONY OF DR. CHARLES FRANCIS GREGORY

The testimony of Dr. Charles Francis Gregory was taken at 2:30 p.m., on March 23, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that at the start of this session that I have here at the moment Dr. Charles Gregory, who has appeared here in response to a letter of request from the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy.

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May I say to you, Dr. Gregory, that the purpose of the Commission is to investigate all facets relating to the assassination, including the wounding of President Kennedy, and the wounding of Governor Connally, and we have asked you to appear here for the purpose of testifying concerning your treatment of Governor Connally. Our rules specify that we make a brief statement of the purpose of the Commission, and the purpose of our calling on you. Now, will you stand up and raise your right hand?

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give before the President's Commission in this deposition proceeding will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Dr. GREGORY . I do.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you state your full name for the record, please ?

Dr. GREGORY. Dr. Charles Francis Gregory.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is your profession, sir?

Dr. GREGORY. I am a physician and surgeon.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you outline your educational background, please?

Dr. GREGORY. Yes; I received a bachelor of science degree from Indiana University in 1941, and a doctor of medicine in 1944. I have completed 5 years of post-graduate training in orthopedic surgery at the Indiana University Medical Center in 1951. I remained there excepting for an interlude with the U.S. Navy in 1953 and 1954, until 1956. In 1956 I assumed my present position, which is that of professor of orthopedic surgery and chairman of the division of orthopedic surgery at the Southwestern Medical School, University of Texas.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Gregory, are you certified by the American Board?

Dr. GREGORY. I am certified by the American Board of Orthopedic Surgery; yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And what year were you so certified?

Dr. GREGORY. In 1953. I am now a member of the American Board of Orthopedic Surgery, as a matter of fact.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Gregory, what experience, if any, have you had in the treatment of gunshot wounds?

Dr. GREGORY. My experience with the treatment of gunshot wounds began with my training in orthopedic surgery, but its greatest impetus occurred in 1953 and 1954 in the Korean theatre of operations with the U.S. Navy. Since that time here at the Parkland Hospital in Dallas our service has attended a considerable number of such injuries, plus my experience is continuing.

Mr. SPECTER. Could you approximate the total number of gunshot wounds you have had experience with?

Dr. GREGORY. I have had personal experience with, I suppose, in approximately 500 such missile wounds.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Gregory, back on November 22, 1963, did you have occasion

to treat Governor Connally?

Dr. GREGORY. I did.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you relate briefly the circumstances surrounding your call to treat the Governor?

Dr. GREGORY. I had been seeing patients in the health service at the medical school building on the morning of November 22 and was there when word was received that the President had been shot. I did not then know that the Governor had also been injured. I came to the emergency room of Parkland Hospital and upon gaining entrance to it, inquired as to whether or not Mr. Kennedy's wounds were of a nature that would require my assistance.

I was advised that they were not. I then took a number of persons from the emergency room area with me away from it in order to reduce the confusion, and I went to the orthopedic ward on the fifth floor west of Parkland Hospital. After attending some of the patients on that ward, I was preparing to leave the hospital and went by the operating room area to see whether or not I could be of any other assistance, and was apprised then that a page was out for me. At that time Dr. Shaw advised me that Governor Connally had been wounded and that among his wounds were those to the right forearm and the left thigh. He had asked that I stay and attend those wounds after he had completed care of the Governor's chest wound.

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Mr. SPECTER. At approximately what time did you have that conversation with Dr. Shaw?

Dr. GREGORY. To the best of my knowledge. that conversation must have been about between 1 and 1:15 in the afternoon of November 22.

Mr. SPECTER. And that conversation was with Dr. Shaw ?

Dr. GREGORY. Dr. Robert Shaw.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, what part did Dr. Robert Shaw have in the treatment of Governor Connally in a general way?

Dr. GREGORY. Well, Dr. Robert Shaw attended the most serious wound that the Governor sustained, which was one to his right chest, and it was his operation which took precedence over all others.

Mr. SPECTER. And, was that operation completed before your operation commenced ?

Dr. GREGORY. Yes; Dr. Shaw's operation had been completed before we even arranged the Governor's right arm and left thigh for definitive care.

Mr. SPECTER. At approximately what time did your operation of Governor Connally begin?

Dr. GREGORY. My operation on Governor Connally began about 4 o'clock p.m. on Friday, November 22.

Mr. SPECTER. And approximately how long did it last?

Dr. GREGORY. The better part of an hour--I should judge---45 to 50 minutes.

Mr. SPECTER. Who, if anyone, assisted you in that operation?

Dr. GREGORY. I was assisted by the junior orthopedic resident, Dr. William Osborne, and the orthopedic intern, Dr. John Parker.

Mr. SPECTER. What was Governor Connally's condition when you first saw him with respect to his chest wounds, first, if you will, please tell us?

Dr. GREGORY. I did not see Governor Connally myself until he had been taken into the operating room and had had an endotracheal tube placed in his larynx and had been anesthetized. Having accomplished this, the very precarious mechanics of respiration had been corrected and his general status at that time was quite satisfactory.

Mr. SPECTER. What observations did you have with respect to his wound in the chest?

Dr. GREGORY. I had none, really, for the business of prepping and draping was underway at that time, and I did not intrude other than to observe very casually, and I don't remember any details of it.

Now, I did see in the course of the operation the wound in his chest, the wound of entry, and its posterior surface and the wound of exit on the anterior surface.

Mr. SPECTER. What did the wound of entry look like, Doctor?

Dr. GREGORY. It appeared to me that the wound of entry was sort of a linear wound, perhaps three-quarters of an inch in length with a rounded central portion. Whereas, the wound of exit was rather larger than this, perhaps an inch and a half across.

Mr. SPECTER. And at approximately what part of the body was the wound that you described as the wound of entry?

Dr. GREGORY. In view of the drapes that were on the Governor at the time, I will have to speculate, but as I recall best, it was in an area probably 2 inches below and medial to the right nipple.

Mr. SPECTER. Is that the wound of entry or exit?

Dr. GREGORY. That's the wound of exit.

Mr. SPECTER. How about the wound of entry?

Dr. GREGORY. The wound of entry was too obscure for me to identify, since it was just in general over the posterior aspect of his chest.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe with respect to the wound of his wrist?

Dr. GREGORY. I didn't see the wound of his wrist until after the chest operation had been completed, because his arm was covered by the operation drapes, the surgical drapes for the chest procedure.

Mr. SPECTER. And when you did have an opportunity to observe the wound of the wrist, what did you then see?

Dr. GREGORY. I observed the wound on the dorsal aspect of his wrist, which was about 2 cm. in length, ragged, somewhat irregular, and lay about an inch

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and a half or 2 inches above the wrist joint. It was a little to the radial side of the wrist area.

There was a second wound in the wrist on the volar surface, about a centimeter and a half proximal to the distal flexion crease and this wound was a transverse laceration no more than a centimeter in length and did not gape.

Mr. SPECTER. When you say on the dorsal aspect, what is that?

Dr. GREGORY. In lay terms, that's equivalent to the back of the hand.

Mr. SPECTER. And the volar is equivalent to what?

Dr. GREGORY. The palm surface of the hand.

Mr. SPECTER. What conclusion, if any, did you reach as to which was the wound of entry and exit on the wrist ?

Dr. GREGORY. Based on certain findings in the wound at the time the debridement was carried out--

Mr. SPECTER. Will you define debridement before you proceed with that?

Dr. GREGORY. Yes; debridement is a surgical term used to designate that procedure in attending a wound which removes by sharp excision all nonvital tissue in the area together with any identifiable foreign objects.

In attending this wound, it was evident early that clot had been carried into the wound from the dorsal surface to the bone and into the fracture. This would imply that an irregular missile had passed through the wrist from the dorsal to the volar aspect.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, were there any characteristics in the volar aspect which would indicate that it was a wound of exit?

Dr. GREGORY. No; there were none, really. It was my assumption that the missile had expended much of its remaining energy in passing through the radius bone, which it did before it could emerge through the soft tissues.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any foreign objects identifiable as bits of fragments or portions of a bullet missile?

Dr. GREGORY. A preliminary X-ray had indicated that there were metallic fragments or at least metallic fragments which cast metallic shadows in the soft tissues around the wounded forearm. Two or three of these were identified and were recovered and were observed to be metallic in consistency. These were turned over to appropriate authorities for further disposition.

Mr. SPECTER. Approximately how large were those fragments, Dr. Gregory?

Dr. GREGORY. I would judge that they were first--fiat, rather thin, and that their greatest dimension would probably not exceed one-eighth of an inch. They were very small.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you have sufficient experience with gunshot wounds to comment as to whether a 6.5-mm. bullet could have passed through the Governor's wrist in the way you have described, leaving the fragments which you have described and still have virtually all the bullet missile intact, or having 158 grains of a bullet at that time?

Dr. GREGORY. Well, I am not an expert on ballistics, but one cannot escape certain ballistic implications in this business.

I would say, first of all, that how much of the missile remains intact as a mass depends to some extent on how hard the metal is. Obviously, if it is very soft, as lead, it may lose more fragments and therefore more weight and volume than it might if it is made of a harder material or is jacketed in some way.

Now, the energy in the missile is a product, not so much of its mass as it is of its velocity, for by doubling the velocity, you can increase the kinetic energy in the force it transmits, fourfold, since the formula for determining energy in these cases is a matter of mass times velocity squared, rather than just linear functional velocity. So, some knowledge of how much of the cartridge force might have been behind the missile would be useful here too.

Mr. SPECTER. For the purpose of this consideration, I am interested to know whether the metal which you found in the wrist was of sufficient size so that the bullet which passed through the wrist could not have emerged virtually completely intact or with 158 grains intact, or whether the portions of the metallic fragments were so small that that would be consistent with having Virtually the entire 6.5-mm. bullet emerge.

Dr. GREGORY. Well, considering the small volume of metal as seen by X-ray, and the very small dimensions of the metal which was recovered, I think several

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such fragments could have been flaked off of a total missile mass without reducing its volume greatly.

Now, just how much, depends of course upon what the original missile weighed. In other words, on the basis of the metal left behind in Governor Connally's body, as far as I could tell, the missile that struck it could be virtually intact, insofar as mass was concerned, but probably was distorted.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you have any idea at all as to what the fragments which you observed in the Governor's wrist might weigh, Doctor?

Dr. GREGORY. No, not really, but it would have been very small---very small. Mr. SPECTER. What treatment or action did you take with respect to treating the Governor's wrist for him, Dr. Gregory?

Dr. GREGORY. Upon completing the debridement, we were then faced with a decision as to whether we should suture his wound in the conventional manner or not, and we chose not to, leaving the wound open in deference to potential infection that might be produced by retained fragments of clothing. Having decided upon that course of action, the fractured radius bone was then manipulated into a reduced position and the entire limb was encased in a plaster-paris cast.

Mr. SPECTER. Did that complete your operative procedure?

Dr. GREGORY. That completed my operative procedure for that day for Governor Connally--yes.

Mr. SPECTER. What other wounds, if any, did you notice on the Governor at that time?

Dr. GREGORY. In addition to the chest wound and the wound just described in his right forearm there was a wound in the medical aspect of his left thigh. This was almost round and did not seem to have disturbed the tissues badly, but did definitely penetrate and pass through the skin and to the fascia beneath. I could not tell from the superficial inspection whether it had passed through the fascia. An X-ray was made of his thigh at that time and there was not present in his thigh any missile of sufficient magnitude, in my opinion, to have produced the wound observed on his medial aspect. Repeat X-rays failed to reveal any such missile and an additional examination failed to reveal any wound of exit.

Mr. SPECTER. What did the X-rays reveal with respect to the presence of a missile?

Dr. GREGORY. In the thigh there was a very small shadow, perhaps 1 mm. by 2 mm. in dimension, lying close to the medial aspect of the femur, that is, the thigh bone, but was in my opinion much too small to have accounted for the dimensions of the wound on the medial aspect of his thigh or a wound of that character.

Mr. SPECTER. What were the dimensions of the wound on the medial aspect of his thigh.

Dr. GREGORY. I would say that that wound was about a centimeter in diameter, much larger than the identifiable fragment of metal in the thigh. I might add that this prompted some speculation on our part, my part, which was voiced to someone that some search ought to be made in the Governor's clothing or perhaps in the auto or some place, wherever he may have been, for the missile which had produced this much damage but which was not resident in him.

Mr. SPECTER. Approximately what type of a missile would it have taken to produce a wound which you have described on his thigh ?

Dr. GREGORY. Well, it would take a fragment of metal of approximately the same diameter--a centimeter, and in general---round.

Mr. SPECTER. Would that correspond with the measurement of a 6.5-mm. missile ?

Dr. GREGORY. I will have to guess--I don't know what dimension-of a 6.5-mm.--yes, a 6.5-mm. would be .65 cm., approximately, yes, that could have very well have occurred from such a missile, yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Gregory, I now show you two typewritten pages which are a portion of a document identified as Commission Exhibit No. 392, which in its total aspect constitutes all of the medical records from Parkland Hospital on President Kennedy and Governor Connally and the two pages to which I direct your attention relate an operation on Governor Connally, where you are

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listed as the surgeon, and I ask you if you will take a minute and look those over and tell us whether or not that is your report on the operation which you have just been describing.

Dr. GREGORY. (Examining instrument referred to.) Yes, this appears to be the essence of the report which I dictated at the conclusion of my operation on Governor Connally.

Mr. SPECTER. And are the facts contained in this report the same as those to which you have testified here today?

Dr. GREGORY. I think they are---I hope so.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, will you describe in a general way what treatment you have given Governor Connally following the time when you completed this report on November 22, 1963?

Dr. GREGORY. The Governor remained in Parkland Hospital for some 2 weeks after his admission. On the 5th day after the operation, in the Governor's hospital room, the wound on the dorsal surface of his wrist was closed by wire sutures and this was carried out in the room. On the 10th day, I believe it was, the 10th day from injury, the Governor was taken back to the operating room and there under a light general anesthesia, his wounds were dressed and inspected, and a new plaster of paris cast was applied at that time.

The Governor was then permitted up and about with his arm in a sling, and shortly thereafter returned to the Governor's Mansion in Austin. I visited Governor Connally in the Governor's Mansion in Austin about 1 week after his discharge from the hospital, simply for check-up examination and I found things to be in a satisfactory state.

I saw the Governor again about 1 month after his discharge, in the office of Dr. Robert A. Dennison in Austin, Tex., and another examination this time, including an X-ray, was made, and again the condition of his right forearm and of the fractured bone were considered to be satisfactory.

Now, I've got to think of the next date--off of the record or on as you wish---

Mr. SPECTER. All right, we will go off of the record, Doctor, while you are thinking that through.

Dr. GREGORY. All right,

(Discussion between Counsel Specter and the Witness Gregory off the record.)

Mr. SPECTER. All right, Dr. Gregory.

Dr. GREGORY. I'll say on or about February 14, the Governor came to Dallas and on that occasion we removed his cast, obtained an X-ray, found his fracture to be healing satisfactorily, and so we applied a new cast. The Governor wore that cast until 1 week ago, when he again came to Dallas. The cast was removed, and X-ray revealed satisfactory healing of his fracture, and the cast, as a continuous form of treatment, was discontinued.

At the present time the Governor is on a regiment of exercises, and he wears a demountable splint, whenever it looks as though the electorate may be over enthusiastic by shaking his hand.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you anticipate any future cast for Governor Connally?

Dr. GREGORY. I anticipate probably an uneventful, though slow, recovery of normal function in his right arm and wrist and hand.

I think he will have some permanent impairment, but I think he will have a very minimal amount of disability, and I do not at this time anticipate any need for any further surgical intervention. That will have to become manifest by the appearance of some other as yet unanticipated symptom.

I would like to add that on each of the examination interviews here in Dallas, the Governor was also checked over by Dr. Robert Shaw, from the point of view of recovery from his chest wound.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Gregory, I now show you a series of diagrams which are a part of reports bearing Commission No. 326 and may the record show these differ from Commission Exhibit numbers, reflecting the number assigned to reports.

I am going to ask the Court Reporter to make this particular copy as Dr. Gregory's Exhibit No. 1.

(Instrument marked by the Reporter as Dr. Gregory's Exhibit No. 1, for identification.)

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Mr. SPECTER. I am going to ask you, pointing first to Diagram No. 1, whether or not this accurately depicts the wounds of Governor Connally ?

Dr. GREGORY. This one does not.

Mr. SPECTER. In what respect?

Dr. GREGORY. In the respect that the wound of entry is shown to exist on the volar surface of the forearm, whereas, it was on the dorsal surface of the forearm in my view---in my opinion---and the reverse holds for the wound of exit.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you take my pen and correct those as they should be, Doctor Gregory?

Dr. GREGORY. (Complied with request of Counsel Specter.)

Mr. SPECTER. Now, turning to Exhibit, Diagram No. 2 on this exhibit, and calling your attention specifically to the point of entry and the point of exit on the diagram of a man standing, does that correspond with the angle of declination on Governor Connally's wound?

Dr. GREGORY. To the best of my knowledge, this would fairly accurately depict that angle. If I were to have any reservation at all, it would be with reference to the height or the position of the wounds of entry, as being marked a little high, but this is recalling from memory, and it may not be correct.

Mr. SPECTER. I now call your attention to Diagram No. 3 on this sequence and ask if this accurately depicts the condition of the Governor's wounds?

Dr. GREGORY. I think that this one comes more closely into line with their actual location, especially with reference to the wound of entry in the posterior aspect of the chest. It is a little lower here, as I recall it to be. Those of the wrist, I think are accurately depicted, and that of the thigh are believed to be accurately depicted.

Mr. SPECTER And on these wrist wounds, do they show the point of entry to be on the dorsal aspect and the point of exit to be on the volar aspect?

Dr. GREGORY. According to the anatomical position, I believe that they do; yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, looking at Diagram No. 4, does this again correspond with your recollection of the angle of decline on Governor Connally?

Dr. GREGORY. Again, if I have a reservation it would be to the wound of entry and the posterior aspect as being shown a little higher than it actually existed.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, Dr. Gregory, I turn to Diagram No. 5, which depicts a seated man and what does Diagram No. 5 depict to your eye with respect to what action is described on the seated man ?

Dr. GREGORY. Well, I should say that this composite has alined the several parts of the body demonstrated in such a way that a single missile following a constant trajectory could have accounted for all of the wounds which are shown.

Moreover, this is consistent with the point of entry which is depicted on the side views showing the angle of declination. I submit that the angle of declination in passing through the chest could be very simply altered by having an individual lean forward a few degrees, and similarly could be made much deeper by having him lean backward, without really changing the basic relationship between the parts, nor in any way affecting the likelihood that all parts could have come into this same trajectory.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you consider it possible, in your professional opinion, for the same bullet to have inflicted all of the wounds which you have described on Governor Connally?

Dr. GREGORY. Yes; I believe it very possible, for a number of reasons. One of these is the apparent loss of energy manifested at each of the various body surfaces, which I transacted, the greatest energy being at the point of entry on the posterior aspect of the chest and of the fifth rib, where considerable destruction was .done and the least destruction having been done in the medial aspect of the thigh where the bullet apparently expended itself.

Mr. SPECTER. What destruction was done on the fifth rib, Dr. Gregory?

Dr. GREGORY. It is my understanding from conversations with Dr. Shaw, and I believe his medical reports bear this out, that the fifth rib was literally shattered by the missile.

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We know that high velocity bullets striking bone have a strong tendency to shatter bones and the degree to which the fifth rib was shattered was considerably in excess of the amount of shattering which occurred in the radius--the forearm.

Mr. SPECTER. And what conclusion, if any, did you draw as to the velocity of the missile, as to the time it struck each of those bony portions?

Dr. GREGORY. I think that the missile was continually losing velocity with each set of tissues which it encountered and transacted, and the amount of damage done is progressively less from first entrance in the thorax to the last entrance in the thigh.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you think it possible that Governor Connally was shot by two bullets, with one hitting in the posterior part of his body and the second one striking the back side of his wrist?

Dr. GREGORY. The possibility exists, but I would discount it for these reasons--ordinarily, a missile in flight---I'll qualify that---a high velocity missile in flight does not tend to carry organic material into the wound which it creates.

I believe if you will inspect the record which was prepared by Dr. Shaw, there is no indication that any clothing or other organic material was found in the chest wound.

An irregular missile can carry debris into a wound and such debris was carried into the wound of the wrist. I would have expected that an undistorted high velocity missile striking the wrist would not have carried material into it.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there any other characteristic which led and leads you to conclude that the wrist was not the initial point of impact of a single high velocity bullet?

Dr. GREGORY. Yes. Based on our experience with high velocity missile wounds of the forearm produced by rifles of the deer hunting calibre, there is tremendous soft tissue destruction as well as bone fragmentation which not infrequently culminates in amputation of the part.

I do not believe that the missile wound in Governor Connally's right forearm was produced by a missile of such magnitude at the time it struck him. It either had to be one of lower initial energy or a missile which had been partially expended elsewhere before it struck his wrist.

Mr. SPECTER. Would that opinion apply if you assumed that the missile had initial velocity when leaving the muzzle of the weapon of 200 feet per second?

Dr. GREGORY. That's not a very high velocity missile.

Mr. SPECTER. Pardon me---2,000 feet per second.

Dr. GREGORY. I should say that a missile at 2,000 feet per second that strikes the forearm is likely to blow it very nearly off, if it is a missile of any mass as well.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, assume that you have a muzzle velocity of 2,000 feet per second and assume the mass is 6.5 mm, and assume further that the distance between the muzzle and the wrist is approximately 160 to 250 feet away, what would you expect, based on your experience, that the consequences would be on that wrist?

Dr. GREGORY. I will have to say that most of the high velocity rifle wounds that I have seen of the forearm have, in fact, been at a closer range than that which you have stipulated, but I doubt that a range of 155 or 200 feet would seriously reduce the energy, and I would expect a similar wound, under the circumstances which you have described.

Mr. SPECTER. Let me add another possibility in this sequence, Dr. Gregory, and ask you your opinion with respect to an additional intervening victim in the path of the same bullet to this effect---assume that President Kennedy was riding in an open automobile directly behind Governor Connally, and that at a distance of approximately 175 feet President Kennedy was struck by a bullet from a weapon with a muzzle velocity of 2,000 feet per second, carrying a 6.5 mm. missile and that the missile entered in the upper right of the President's back very near the neckline and passed through his body, striking no bony material, and emerged from the throat of the President. Is it possible that missile could have then entered the back of the Governor and inflicted the chest wound which you have described ?

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Dr. GREGORY. I would have to concede that that would be possible---yes.

Mr. SPECTER. What would your professional opinion be, if you can formulate one, as to whether or not that actually did happen in this situation?

Dr. GREGORY. I really couldn't formulate an objective opinion about it. Only, for this reason, that it would then become a question simply of trajectories, and lining the two bodies up in such a way that this sequence of events could have occurred. I would hazard one guess, that is, that had the missile that struck Governor Connally passed through President Kennedy first, that though the missile would not have been distorted necessarily, it would very probably have

begun to tumble. Now, if you like, I will define that for you.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you please?

Dr. GREGORY. A tumbling is a second---it actually is a third component of motion that a missile may go through in its trajectory. First, there is a linear motion from muzzle to target on point of impact. In order to keep a missile on its path, there is imparted to it a rotary motion so that it is spinning. Now, both of these are commensurate with the constant trajectory. A third component, which is tumbling, and is literally the end over end motion, which may be imparted to a missile should it strike something in flight that deflects but does not stop it---in this circumstance the wound of entry created by such a missile usually is quite large and the destruction it creates is increased, as a matter of fact, by such tumbling, and I would have therefore expected to see perhaps some organic material carried into a large wound of entry in Governor Connally's back.

These are only theoretical observations, but these are some of the reasons why I would believe that the missile in the Governor behaved as though it had never struck anything except him.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe the nature of the wound in the Governor's back?

Dr. GREGORY. Only so far as I saw it as Dr. Shaw was preparing to operate on it, but I was unable to see the nature of the wound as he carried out his operation. I did, however, specifically question him about this matter of containing foreign material, clothing, etc.

Mr. SPECTER. What did he say about that?

Dr. GREGORY. Well, as I recall it, he said none was found, and I would not have expected any to be found as I explained to you, if this was the initial impact of that missile.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, wouldn't you think it possible, bearing in mind that my last question only went as to whether the same bullet could have gone through President Kennedy and inflicted the wound on Governor Connally's chest, would you think it possible that the same missile could have gone through President Kennedy in the way I described and have inflicted all three of the wounds, that is, the entry and exit on the chest, the entry and exit on the wrist, and the entry into the thigh which you described.

Dr. GREGORY. I suspect it's possible, but I would say it would have to be a remarkably powerful missile to have done so.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Gregory, have you been interviewed about this matter prior to today by any representative of the Federal Government?

Dr. GREGORY. Yes; on two or three occasions I have talked to a properly identified member of the Secret Service, Mr. Warren, I believe it was.

Mr. SPECTER. And what was the nature of the information which you gave to Mr. Warren on those occasions?

Dr. GREGORY. Essentially the same thing as I have told you here, but in much less detail.

Mr. SPECTER. And have you ever talked to anyone besides Mr. Warren and me about these matters, from the Federal Government?

Dr. GREGORY. No; not that I know of. I was on a day or so after the assassination spoken to in these offices by a member of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, but it was a very brief interview.

Mr. SPECTER. What was that about?

Dr. GREGORY. And I think it was the question of whether or not I had been able to recover any metal from Governor Connally which they might use for ballistic analysis.

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I regret to say I don't know the gentleman's name, but he too was properly identified.

Mr. SPECTER. And prior to the time when the Court Reporter started to transcribe the deposition which you have been kind enough to provide us with, had you and I been talking about the same subjects which you have answered

questions on all during the course of this deposition?

Dr. GREGORY. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And during the time that you first were interviewed by the Secret Service down through the present moment, have you had the same general opinion concerning the matters which you have testified about here today ?

Dr. GREGORY. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add which you think would be helpful in any way to the work of the Commission?

Dr. GREGORY. No; not really. This is the only articulation I have had with this whole episode concerning Governor Connally's wound and his subsequent recovery and none other.

Mr. SPECTER Thank you very much, Dr. Gregory, for coming.

Dr. GREGORY. Very well.

Dr. George T. Shires

Page 104

TESTIMONY OF DR. GEORGE T. SHIRES

Dr. Gregory

Volume IV

TESTIMONY OF DR. CHARLES FRANCIS GREGORY

Senator COOPER. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are going to give to this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Dr. GREGORY. I do.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you state your full name for the record, please?

Dr. GREGORY. Doctor Charles Francis Gregory.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your profession, sir?

Dr. GREGORY. I am a physician and surgeon.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you outline your educational background briefly, please?

Dr. GREGORY. I received a bachelor of science degree from the University of Indiana in 1941, and an M.D. degree in medicine from the Indiana University School of Medicine in 1944.

Following 1-year internship and a tour of duty in the U.S. Navy, I undertook 5 years of postgraduate training in orthopedic surgery at Indiana University Medical Center.

Upon completing that training I became a member of the faculty at Indiana University Medical School, and remained so until November of 1952, when I re-entered the U.S. Navy for another 20 months.

In 1956 I was appointed professor and then chairman of the Division of Orthopedic Surgery at the University of Texas Southwestern Medical School, where I presently am.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you certificated by the American Board of Orthopedic Surgery?

Dr. GREGORY. I am, in 1953.

Mr. SPECTER. What experience, if any, have you had with bullet wounds, Doctor?

Dr. GREGORY. Beyond the rather indigenous nature of such wounds in the main teaching hospital at Southwestern Medical School, my experience has covered a tour of duty in the, Navy during World War II, and a considerably more active period of time in the Korean war in support of the 1st Marine Corps Division.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate as to the total number of bullet wounds you have had an opportunity to observe and treat?

Dr. GREGORY. I would estimate that I have dealt directly with approximately 500 such wounds.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you a licensed doctor in the State of Texas at the present time?

Dr. GREGORY. I am.

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Mr. SPECTER. What were your duties in a general way back on November 22, 1963, with Parkland Hospital?

Dr. GREGORY. On that date, November 22, 1963, I was seeing patients in the health service of the adjacent medical school building when about noon I was advised that the President of the United States had been admitted to Parkland Hospital due to gunshot injuries.

I went immediately to the emergency room area of the Parkland Hospital, and upon gaining admission to the emergency room, I encountered the hospital superintendent.

I inquired of him then as to whether or not the President had injuries which might require my attention and he indicated that they were not of that nature.

I, therefore, took a number of unnecessary onlookers like myself from the emergency area in order to reduce the confusion, and I went to the fifth floor of the hospital, which is the orthopedic ward.

And after attending a number of patients there, I prepared to leave. the hospital, but stopped by the surgical suite on my way out, to check and see if any need for my services might have come up, and encountered there Dr. Shaw who indicated to me that Governor Connally had also been injured, and that these included injuries to his extremities for which I would be retained.

Mr. SPECTER. Did Dr. Shaw then call upon you to perform operative aid for Governor Connally?

Dr. GREGORY. He did.

Mr. SPECTER. And when did you first see Governor Connally then?

Dr. GREGORY. I first saw Governor Connally after Dr. Shaw had prepared him and draped him for the surgical procedures which he carried out on the Governor's chest.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, did you have any opportunity to observe the wound on the Governor's chest?

Dr. GREGORY. I could see the wounds on the Governor's chest, but I could see them only through the apertures available in the surgical drapes, and therefore I had difficulty orienting the exact positions of the wounds, except for the wound identified as the wound of exit which could be related to the nipple in the right chest which was exposed.

Mr. SPECTER. Now what did you observe with respect to the wound on the Governor's wrist?

Dr. GREGORY. I did not have an opportunity to examine the wound on the Governor's wrist until Dr. Shaw had completed his surgical treatment of the Governor's chest wound.

At that time he was turned to his back and it was possible to examine both the right upper extremity and the left lower extremity for wounds of the wrist and left thigh respectively.

The right wrist was the site of a perforating wound, which by assumption began on a dorsal lateral surface. In lay terms this is the back of the hand on the thumb side at a point approximately 5 centimeters above the wrist joint.

There is a second wound presumed to be the wound of exit which lay in the midline of the wrist on its palmar surface about 2 centimeters, something less than 1 inch above the wrist crease, the most distal wrist crease.

Mr. SPECTER. You say that the, wound on the dorsal or back side of the wrist you assume to be the wound of entrance. What factors, if any, led you to that assumption?

Dr. GREGORY. I assumed it to be a wound of entrance because of the general ragged appearance of the wound, but for other reasons which I can delineate in a lighter description which came to light during the operative procedure and which are also hallmarked to a certain extent by the X-rays.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you proceed to tell us, even though it is out of sequence, what those factors, later. determined to be, were which led you to assume that it was the wound of entrance?

Dr. GREGORY. Yes. Assuming that the wrist wound, which included a shattering fracture of the wrist bone, of the radial bone just above the wrist, was produced by a missile there were found in the vicinity of the wound two things

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which led me to believe that it passed from the. dorsal or back side to the volar. The first of these----

Mr. SPECTER. When you say volar what do you mean by that?

Dr. GREGORY. The palm side.

Mr. SPECTER. Proceed.

Dr. GREGORY. The first of these was evidence of clothing, bits of thread and cloth, apparently from a dark suit or something of that sort which had been carried into the wound, from the skin into the region of the bone.

The second of these were two or three small fragments of metal which presumably were shed by the missile after their encounter with the firm substance which is bone.

Mr. SPECTER. As to the bits of cloth which you describe, have you had an opportunity earlier today to examine a coat, heretofore identified and marked by a picture bearing Commission Exhibit No. 683, which we will have later testimony on as being Governor Connally's coat?

Dr. GREGORY. I have.

Mr. SPECTER. And what, if anything, did your examination disclose with respect to the wound of the right wrist?

Dr. GREGORY. Well, the right sleeve of the coat has a tear in it close to the margin at a point which is, I think, commensurate with the location of the dorsal surface, the back side of the wrist, forearm where the two may have been super imposed and both damaged by the same penetrating body.

Mr. SPECTER. Is the nature of the material of the suit coat the same as that which you found in the wound of the wrist?

Dr. GREGORY. It is. As a matter of fact, at the time that the wound was treated, and the cloth was found, the speculation was made as to the kind the color of the suit the Governor was wearing and moreover the thread was almost identifiable as mohair or raw silk or something of that nature and entirely consistent with this fabric.

Mr. SPECTER. Was the color, which you speculated about, the same as which you see in this Jacket?

Dr. GREGORY. Yes; it was my impression it was black or either dark blue.

Mr. SPECTER. You say there was something in the X-ray work which led you to further conclude that that was the wound of entrance?

Dr. GREGORY. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you proceed now to show the Commission those X-rays, please?

Dr. GREGORY. This is an X-ray made in the lateral view of the Governor's wrist at the time he was brought to the hospital prior to any surgical intervention.

Mr. SPECTER. As to the first X-ray, Dr. Gregory, would you identify the date when it was taken?

Dr. GREGORY. Yes; this film was made on November 22, 1963, as indicated by a pencil marking on that film, and it further hears the assigned X-ray number of 219-992, which was that of the patient, Governor John Connally.

Mr. SPECTER. May it please the Commission we shall reserve number 690 and 691 for later identification of those photographs and X-rays.

Senator COOPER. So ordered.

Dr. GREGORY. If you will notice in addition to the apparent fracture of this, the radial bone here.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you now describing a second X-ray?

Dr. GREGORY. No; these are two taken at right angle of the Governor's wrist prior to attention. These are diagnostic film, one made with the hand palm down and one with the hand turned 90°.

Mr. SPECTER. Do they bear identical numbers then?

Dr. GREGORY. They do.

Mr. SPECTER. Is there any mark on them at the present time which distinguishes them by way of marking or number?

Dr. GREGORY. Other than the pencil markings on each of these two films and my own which I attached last evening for convenience.

Mr. SPECTER. Can you mark one of them as "A" and one as "B," so that when you describe them here we will know which you are referring to?

Dr. GREGORY. Very well. Let the record show that "A" stands for the anteroposterior

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view, Exhibit No. 691, and "B" stands for the lateral view, Exhibit No. 690, of the right wrist and forearm. "A" then demonstrates a comminuted fracture of the wrist with three fragments.

Mr. SPECTER. What do you mean by comminuted?

Dr. GREGORY. Comminuted refers to shattering, to break into more than two pieces, specifically many pieces, and if I may, I can point out there is a fragment here, a fragment here, a fragment here, a fragment here, and there are several smaller fragments lying in the center of these three larger ones.

Mr. SPECTER. How many fragments are there in total, sir, in your opinion?

Dr. GREGORY. I would judge from this view that counting each isolated fragment there are fully seven or eight, and experience has taught that when these things are dismantled directly under direct vision that there very obviously may be more than that.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you continue to describe what that X-ray shows with respect to metallic fragments, if any?

Dr. GREGORY. Three shadows are identified as representing metallic fragments. There are other light shadows in this film which are identified or interpreted as being artifacts.

Mr. SPECTER. What is the basis of distinction between that which is an artifact and that which is a real shadow of the metallic substance?

Dr. GREGORY. A real shadow of metallic substance persist and be seen in other views, other X-ray copies, whereas artifacts which are produced by irregularities either in the film or film carrier will vary from one X-ray to another.

Mr. SPECTER. Is it your view that these other X-ray films led you to believe that those are, in fact, metallic substances?

Dr. GREGORY. As a matter of fact, it is the mate to this very film, the lateral view marked "B", which shows the same three fragments in essentially the same relationship to the various levels of the forearm that leads me to believe that these do, in fact, represent metallic fragments.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe as specifically as you can what those metallic fragments are by way of size and shape, sir?

Dr. GREGORY. I would identify these fragments as varying from five-tenths of a millimeter in diameter to approximately 2 millimeters in diameter., and each fragment is no more than a half millimeter in thickness. They would represent in lay terms flakes, flakes of metal.

Mr. SPECTER. What would your estimate be as to their weight in total?

Dr. GREGORY. I would estimate that they would be weighed in micrograms which is very small amount of weight. I don't know how to reduce it to ordinary equivalents for you.

It is the kind of weighing that requires a microadjustable scale, which means that it is something less than the weight of a postage stamp.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you now described all the metallic substances which you observed either visually or through the X- rays in the Governor's wrist?

Dr. GREGORY. These are the three metallic substance items which I saw. Now if I may use these to indicate why I view the path as being from dorsal to volar, from the back of the wrist to the palm side, these have been shed on the volar side suggesting that contact with this bone resulted in there being flaked off, as the remainder of the missile emerged from the volar side leaving the small flakes behind.

Mr. SPECTER. Are the X-rays helpful in any other way in ascertaining the point of entry and the point of exit?

Dr. GREGORY. There is a suggestion to be seen in Exhibit B, the lateral view, a suggestion of the pathway as seen by distortion of soft tissues. This has become a bit irregular on the dorsal side. There is evidence of air in the tissues on this side suggesting that the pathway was something like this.

Mr. SPECTER. And when you say indications of air on which side did you mean by "this side," Doctor?

Dr. GREGORY. Air distally on the volar side. There is some evidence of air in the tissue on the volar side too but they are at different levels and this suggests that they gained access to the tissue plans in this fashion.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you elaborate on just what do you mean by "this fashion,"

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indicating the distinctions on the level of the air which suggest that conclusion to you?

Dr. GREGORY. Recall that I suggested that the wound of entrance, certainly the dorsal wound lay some distance, 5 cm. above the wrist joint, approximately here, that the second wound considered to be the wound of exit was only 2 cm. above this point, making the pathway an oblique one.

Mr. DULLES. Would you show that on your own wrist?

Dr. GREGORY. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. We have to explain this a little for the record but I think it would be very useful.

Dr. GREGORY. I think you will have an opportunity to see the real thing a little later if the Governor makes his appearance here.

But the wound of entry I considered to be, although on his right hand, of course, to be approximately at this point on the wrist, and the wound of exit here, which is about the right level for my coat sleeve held at a casual position.

Mr. SPECTER. Let the record show you made two red marks on your wrist, which are in the same position as that which you have described heretofore in technical language.

Dr. GREGORY. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER Had you finished the complete explanation on the indicator from the air levels which you had mentioned before?

Dr. GREGORY. Yes. The air is a little bit more visible to the dorsal surface, closer to the skin here, not so close down at the lower portion, not so much tissue destruction had occurred at the point of the emergence.

Mr. SPECTER. Before proceeding to the other factors indicating point of entry and point of exit, Dr. Gregory, I call your attention to Commission Exhibit No. 399, which is a bullet and ask you first if you have had an opportunity to examine that earlier today?

Dr. GREGORY. I have.

Mr. SPECTER. What opinion, if any, do you have as to whether that bullet could have produced the wound on the Governor's right wrist and remained as intact as it is at the present time?

Dr. GREGORY. In examining this bullet, I find a small flake has been either knocked off or removed from the rounded end of the missile.

(At this point Representative Boggs entered the room.)

I was told that this was removed for the purpose of analysis. The only other deformity which I find is at the base of the missile at the point where it Joined the cartridge carrying the powder, I presume, and this is somewhat flattened and deflected, distorted. There is some irregularity of the darker metal within which I presume to represent lead.

The only way that this missile could have produced this wound in my view, was to have entered the wrist backward. Now, this is not inconsistent with one of the characteristics known for missiles which is to tumble. All missiles in flight have two motions normally, a linear motion from the muzzle of the gun to the target, a second motion which is a spinning motion having to do with maintaining the integrity of the intial linear direction, but if they strike an object they may be caused to turn in their path and tumble end over, and if they do, they tend to produce a greater amount of destruction within the strike time or the target, and they could possibly, if tumbling in air upon emergence, tumble into another target backward. That is the only possible explanation I could offer to correlate this missile with this particular wound.

Mr. SPECTER. Is them sufficient metallic substance missing from the back or rear end of that bullet to account for the metallic substance which you have described in the Governor's wrist?

Dr. GREGORY. It is possible but I don't know enough about the structure of bullets or this one in particular, to know what is a normal complement of lead or for this particular missile. It is irregular, but how much it may have lost, g have no idea.

Mr. DULLES. Would the nature of the entry wound give you any indication as to whether it entered backward or whether it entered forward?

Dr. GREGORY. My initial impression was that whatever produced the wound of the wrist was an irregular object, certainly not smooth nosed as the business

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end of this particular bullet is because of two things. The size of the wound of entrance, and the fact that it is irregular surfaced permitted it to pick up organic debris, materials, threads, and carry them into the wound with it.

Now, you will note that Dr. Shaw earlier in his testimony and in all of my conversations with him, never did indicate that there was any such loss of material into the wrist, nor does the back of this coat which I have examined show that it lost significant amounts of cloth but I think the tear in this coat sleeve does imply that there were bits of fabric lost, and I think those were resident in the wrist. I think we recovered them.

Mr. SPECTER. Is the back of that bullet characteristic of an irregular missile so as to cause the wound in the wrist?

Dr. GREGORY. I would say that the back of this being fiat and having sharp edges is irregular, and would possibly tend to tear tissues more than does an inclined plane such as this.

Mr. SPECTER. Would the back of the missile be sufficiently irregular to have caused the wound of the right wrist, in your opinion?

Dr. GREGORY. I think it could have; yes. It is possible.

Mr. SPECTER. Would it be consistent with your observations of the wrist for that missile to have penetrated and gone through the right wrist?

Dr. GREGORY. It is possible; yes. It appears to me since the wound of exit was a small laceration, that much of the energy of the missile that struck the Governor's wrist was expended in breaking the bone reducing its velocity sufficient so that while it could make an emergence through the underlying soft tissues on his wrist, it did not do great damage to them.

Mr. SPECTER. Is there any indication from the extent of the damage to the wrist whether the bullet was pristine, that is: was the wrist struck first in flight or whether there had been some reduction in the velocity of the missile prior to striking the wrist?

Dr. GREGORY. I would offer this opinion about a high velocity rifle bullet striking a forearm.

Mr. SPECTER. Permit me to inject factors which we have not put on the record although it has been brought to your attention previously: Assume this is a 6.5-millimeter missile which was shot from a rifle having a muzzle velocity of approximately 2,000 feet per second, with a distance of approximately 160 to 200 feet between the weapon and the victim; and answer the prior question, if you would, Dr. Gregory, with those factors in mind?

Dr. GREGORY. I would fully expect the first object struck by that missile to be very badly damaged, and especially if it were a rigid bone such as the wrist bone is, to. literally blow it apart. I have had some experience with rifle wound injuries of the forearm produced by this type of missile, and the last two which I attended myself have culminated in amputation of the limb because of the extensive damage produced by the missile as it passed through the arm.

Considerably more than was evidenced in the Governor's case either by examination of the limb itself or an examination of these X-rays.

Mr. SPECTER Now, as to the experience you had which you experienced which resulted in amputations, what was the range between the weapon and the victim's limb, if you know?

Dr. GREGORY. The range in those two instances, I concede was considerably shorter but I cannot give you the specific range. By short I mean perhaps no more than 15 or 20 yards at the most.

Mr. SPECTER. Would the difference between the 15 or 20 yards and the 160 to 250 feet make any difference in your opinion, though, as to the damage which would be inflicted on the wrist had that bullet struck it as the first point of impact?

Dr. GREGORY. No, sir; I don't think it would have made that much difference.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know what the color was of the fragments in the wrist of the Governor, Dr. Gregory?

Dr. GREGORY. As I recall them they were lead colored, silvery, of that color. I did not recall them as being either brass or copper.

Mr. SPECTER. Are there any other X-rays of the Governor's wrist which would aid the Commission in its understanding of the injuries to the wrist?

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Dr. GREGORY. Only to indicate that there were two fragments of metal retrieved in the course of dealing with this wound surgically.

For the subsequent X-rays of the same area, after the initial surgery indicate that those fragments are no longer there.

And as I stated, I thought I had retrieved two of them. The major one or ones now being missing. The small one related to the bone or most closely related to the bone, and I will put back up here----

Mr. SPECTER. On the new X-rays which you put up, would you identify them first by indicating the date the X-ray was taken?

Dr. GREGORY. Yes; the date of the X-ray is the same, November 22, 1963, and they may be identified as Exhibit "C" anteroposterior view postoperative, which is this one.

Mr. SPECTER. Did they bear the same numbers, Dr. Gregory?

Dr. GREGORY. They will bear the same numbers; yes.

Mr. DULLES. I think you had better get them marked. We haven't got them marked yet "A," "B," and "C."

Representative BOGGS. Postoperative, these are after the operation?

Dr. GREGORY. These two. This one was made before the wound was dealt with.

Mr. SPECTER Which one?

Dr. GREGORY. "A" is the one made before the wound was dealt with surgically.

Senator COOPER. Could you mark it 4 "A," "B," "C," and "D," Doctor?

Mr. McCLOY. Is that "B," we have had another "B" here, you know?

Dr. GREGORY. This is "C." "A" and "C" are comparable X-rays, one made before and one made after the operation was carried out.

Before the operation, you will note a large fragment of metal visible here, not visible in this one. You will also note a small satellite fragment not visible here. A second piece of metal visible preoperatively is still present postoperatively.

No effort incidentally is made to dissect for these fragments. They are small, they are proverbial needles in hay stacks, and we know from experience that small flakes of metal of this kind do not ordinarily produce difficulty in the future, but that the extensive dissection required to find them may produce such consequences and so we choose to leave them inside unless we chance upon them, and on this occasion, those bits of metal recovered were simply found by chance in the course of removing necrotized material.

Other than that the X-rays have nothing more to offer so far as the wrist is concerned.

Mr. SPECTER. May we then reserve 692 for "C" and 693 for "D"?

Dr. GREGORY. I will put the other marks on these.

Senator COOPER. So ordered.

Dr. GREGORY. For your convenience.

Mr. DULLES. Was the wound of exit in the wrist also jagged like the wound of entry or was there, what differences were there between the wound of entry and the wound of exit?

Dr. GREGORY. The wound of exit was disposed transversely across the wrist exactly as I have it marked here. It was in the nature of a small laceration, perhaps a centimeter and a half in length, about a half an inch long, and it lay in the skin creases so that as you examined the wrist casually it was a very innocent looking thing indeed, and it was not until it was probed that its true nature in connection with the remainder of the wound was evident.

Senator RUSSELL. When did you first see this bullet, Doctor, the one you have just described in your testimony?

Dr. GREGORY. This bullet?

Senator RUSSELL. Yes.

Dr. GREGORY. This morning, sir.

Senator RUSSELL. You had never seen it until this morning?

Dr. GREGORY. I had never seen it before this time.

Mr. SPECTER Dr. Gregory, what was then the relative size of the wounds on the back and front side of the wrist itself?

Dr. GREGORY. As I recall them, the wound dimensions would be so far as

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the wound on the back of the wrist is concerned about a haft a centimeter by two and a half centimeters in length. It was rather linear in nature. The upper end of it having apparently lost some tissue was gapping more than the lower portion of it.

Mr. SPECTER. How about on the volar or front side of the wrist?

Dr. GREGORY. The volar surface or palmar surface had a wound disclosed transversely about a half centimeter in length and about 2 centimeters above the flexion crease to the wrist.

Mr. SPECTER. Then the wound on the dorsal or back side of the wrist was a little larger than the wound on the volar or palm side of the wrist?

Dr. GREGORY. Yes; it was.

Mr. SPECTER. And is that characteristic in terms of entry and exit wounds?

Dr. GREGORY. It is not at all characteristic of the entry wound of a pristine missile which tends to make a small wound of entrance and larger wound of exit.

Mr. SPECTER. Is it, however, characteristic of a missile which has had its velocity substantially decreased?

Dr. GREGORY. I don't think that the exchange in the velocity will alter the nature of the wound of entrance or exit excepting that if the velocity is low enough the missile may simply manage to emerge or may not emerge at all on the far side of the limb which has been struck.

Mr. DULLES. Would this be consistent with a tumbling bullet or a bullet that had already tumbled and therefore entered back side too?

Dr. GREGORY. The wound of entrance is characteristic in my view of an irregular missile in this case, an irregular missile which has tipped itself off as being irregular by the nature of itself.

Mr. DULLES. What do you mean by irregular?

Dr. GREGORY. I mean one that has been distorted. It is in some way angular, it has edges or sharp edges or something of this sort. It is not rounded or pointed in the fashion of an ordinary missile. The irregularity of it also, I submit, tends to pick up organic material and carry it into the limb, and this is a very significant takeoff, in my opinion.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you now described all of the characteristics on the Governor's wrist which indicate either the point of entry or the point of exit?

Dr. GREGORY. There is one additional piece of information that is of pertinence but I don't know how effectively it can be applied to the nature of the missile. That is the fact that dorsal branch of the radial nerve, a sensory nerve in this immediate vicinity was partially transected together with one tendon leading to the thumb, which was totally transected.

This could have been produced by a missile entering in the ordinary fashion, undisturbed, undistorted. But again it is more in keeping with an irregular surface which would tend to catch and tear a structure rather than push it aside.

Mr. SPECTER. Would that then also indicate the wound of entrance where that striking took place?

Dr. GREGORY. I believe it is more in keeping with it, yes.

Mr. SPECTER. As to the thigh wound, what, if anything, did you observe as to a wound on the thigh, Dr. Gregory?

Dr. GREGORY. I was apprised that the Governor had a wound of the thigh, and I did examine it immediately the limb was available for it after Dr. Shaw had completed the surgery.

The wound was located on the inner aspect of the thigh, a little to the front surface about a third of the way up from the knee. The wound appeared to me to be rounded, almost a puncture type of wound in dimension about equal to a pencil eraser, about 6 mm.

I suspected that there might be a missile buried here and so an X-ray was obtained of that limb, and----

Mr. SPECTER. Have you brought the X-ray with you?

Dr. GREGORY. Yes; I have.

Mr. SPECTER. On what date was that X-ray taken?

Dr. GREGORY. This X-ray is marked as having been taken on November 22, 1963. It indicates that it was made of the left thigh, and it belongs to John Connally, John G. Connally.

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Mr. SPECTER. That Says "G" instead of "C"?

Dr. GREGORY. Yes. It appears to me to be a "G." The number again is 219-922.

Mr. SPECTER. Is that the same number as the other X-rays bear?

Dr. GREGORY. I believe it is, yes.

Mr. SPECTER. May we reserve then Commission Exhibit No. 694 for that X-ray?

Senator COOPER. It may be so done.

Dr. GREGORY. There are a series of these films. Would you like them marked subsequently "E", "F," and "G"?

Mr. SPECTER. Insofar as you feel they are helpful in characterizing the wounds, do mark them in that way.

Dr. GREGORY. All right.

This I understand is Exhibit E, then and it is a single X-ray made on the anterior posterial view of Mr. Connally's thigh. The only thing found is a very small fleck of metal marked with an arrow here. It is that small, and almost likely to be overlooked. This was not consonant with the kind of wound on the medial aspect of his thigh.

Our next natural assumption was that that missile having escaped from the thigh had escaped the confines of this X-ray and lay somewhere else. So that additional X-rays were made of the same date and l submit two additional X-rays identified again as belonging to John G. Connally, the left lower extremity, November 22, 1963, and these two are numbered 218-922, and they are an anterial posterior view which I will mark "F," and a lateral view which I will mark "G."

Mr. SPECTER. May we reserve 695 for "F," and 696 for "G"?

Senator COOPER. So ordered.

Dr. GREGORY. Careful examination of this set of X-rays illustrated or demonstrates, I should say, a number of artificial lines, this is one and there is one. These lines I think represent rather hurried development of these films for they were taken under emergency conditions. They were intended simply to let us know if there was another missile in the Governor's limb where it might be located.

The only missile turned up is the same one seen in the original film which lies directly opposite the area indicated as the site of the missile wound or the wound in the thigh, but a fragment of metal, again microscopic measuring about five-tenths of a millimeter by 2 millimeters, lies just beneath the skin, about a half inch on the medial aspect of the thigh.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate of the weight of that metallic fragment?

Dr. GREGORY. This again would be in micrograms, postage stamp weight thereabouts, not much more than that.

Mr. SPECTER. Could that fragment, in your opinion, have caused the wound which you observed in the Governor's left thigh?

Dr. GREGORY. I do not believe it could have. The nature of the wound in the left thigh was such that so small a fragment as this would not have produced it and still have gone no further into the soft tissues than it did.

Mr. SPECTER. Would the wound that you observed in the soft tissue of the left thigh be consistent with having been made by a bullet such as that identified as Commission Exhibit 399?

Dr. GREGORY. I think again that bullet, Exhibit 399, could very well have struck the thigh in a reverse fashion and have shed a bit of its lead core into the fascia immediately beneath the skin, yet never have penetrated the thigh sufficiently so that it eventually was dislodged and was found in the clothing.

I would like to add to that we were disconcerted by not finding a missile at all. Here was our patient with three discernible wounds, and no missile within him of sufficient magnitude to account for them, and we suggested that someone ought to search his belongings and other areas where he had been to see if it could be identified or found, rather.

Mr. SPECTER. Had the missile gone through his wrist in reverse, would it likely have Continued in that same course until it reached his thigh, in your opinion?

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Dr. GREGORY. The missile that struck his wrist had sufficient energy left after it passed through the radius to emerge from the soft tissues on the under surface of the skin. It could have had enough to partially enter his thigh, but not completely.

Mr. SPECTER. In the way which his thigh was wounded?

Dr. GREGORY. I believe so; yes.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you do, Dr. Gregory, with the missile fragments which you removed from his wrists?

Dr. GREGORY. Those were turned over to the operating room nurse in attendance with instructions that they should be presented to the appropriate authorities present, probably a member of the Texas Rangers, but that is as far as I went with it myself.

Mr. SPECTER. I now show you a part of a document heretofore identified as Commission Exhibit 392, a two-page report which bears your name on the second page, and I ask you if this is the report you made of the operation on Governor Connally?

Dr. GREGORY. It appears to be the same; yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Are the facts set forth therein true and correct?

Dr. GREGORY. In essence they are true and correct; yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Gregory, does that report show the name of the nurse to whom you turned over the metallic fragments?

Dr. GREGORY. There are two nurses who are identified on this page. One is the scrub nurse, Miss Rutherford, and the second is the circulating nurse, Mrs. Schrader.

Mr. SPECTER. And is one or the other the nurse to whom you turned over the metallic fragments?

Dr. GREGORY. I do not remember precisely to whom I handed them. I do not know.

Mr. SPECTER. I now hand you a document marked Commission Exhibit No. 679, which Dr. Shaw used to identify the wounds on the Governor's back, and I ask you to note whether these documents accurately depict the place and the identity of the entry and exit wounds.

Dr. GREGORY. They do not in that, though the location of the wounds on the forearm is correct, and the dimensions, it is my opinion that entrance and exit terms have been reversed.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you delete the inaccurate statement and insert the accurate statement with your initials by the side of the changes, please? Will you now describe the operative procedures----

Mr. DULLES. Could I ask one question that relates, I think, to your question. Assuming that the wrist wound and the thigh wound were caused by the same bullet, would you agree that the approximate trajectory is as indicated in this chart where Dr. Shaw has drawn a trajectory that he assumed taking into account three bullets instead of two? I am only asking you about the two wounds, namely the wrist and the thigh.

Dr. GREGORY. It would strike me, sir, that the trajectory to the wrist and the subsequent wound of the thigh could be lined up easily in a sitting position.

Now, those two could probably be lined up with a trajectory of the wound in the chest as well, but this would require a more precise positioning of the individual.

Mr. DULLES. But do you agree in general, taking the two wounds with which you are particularly familiar, that that would have been the trajectory as between the wrist and the thigh as drawn on that chart?

Dr. GREGORY. Yes, essentially so; yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. For the record, how was that chart identified, Doctor?

Dr. GREGORY. This is identified as Commission Exhibit 689.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you outline briefly the operative procedures which you performed on the Governor, please?

Dr. GREGORY. Yes. The wound on the dorsum of the Governor's wrist was treated by debridement, which means to remove by sharp surgical excision all contaminated tissues and those which are presumed to have been rendered nonviable by force. This meant removing a certain amount of skin, subcutaneous

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tissue, fat, and all of the particles of clothing, threads of cloth, which we could identify; and, incidentally, a bit of metal or two.

That wound was subsequently left open; in other words, we did not suture it or sew it together. This is done in deference to potential infection which we know often to be associated with retained organic material such as cloth.

The wound on the volar surface or the palmar side of his wrist was enlarged. The purpose in enlarging it was an uncertainty as to the condition of the major nerves in the volar side of the wrist, and so these nerves were identified and explored and found to be intact, as were adjacent tendons. So that that wound was then sutured, closed.

After this, the fracture was manipulated into a hopefully respectable position of the fragments, and a cast was applied, and some traction, using rubber bands, was applied to the finger and the thumb in order to better hold the fracture fragments in their reduced or repositioned state.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Gregory, could all of the wounds which were inflicted on the Governor, that is. those described by Dr. Shaw. and those which you have described during your testimony, have been inflicted from one missile if that missile were a 6.5 millimeter bullet fired from a weapon having a muzzle velocity of approximately 2,000 feet per second at a distance of approximately 160 to 250 feet, if you assumed a trajectory with an angle of decline approximately 45 degrees?

Dr. GREGORY. I believe that the three wounds could have occurred from a single missile under these specifications.

Mr. SPECTER. Assume, if you will, another set of hypothetical circumstances: That the 6.5 millimeter bullet traveling at the same muzzle velocity, to wit, 2,000 feet per second, at approximately 165 feet between the weapon and the victim, struck the President in the back of the neck passing through the large strap muscles, going through a fascia channel, missing the pleural cavity, striking no bones and emerging from the lower anterior third of the neck, after striking the trachea. Could such a projectile have then passed into the Governor's back and inflicted all three or all of the wounds which have been described here today?

Dr. GREGORY. I believe one would have to concede the possibility, but I believe firmly that the probability is much diminished.

Mr. SPECTER. Why do you say that, sir?

Dr. GREGORY. I think that to pass through the soft tissues of the President would certainly have decelerated the missile to some extent. Having then struck the Governor and shattered a rib, it is further decelerated, yet it has presumably retained sufficient energy to smash a radius.

Moreover, it escaped the forearm to penetrate at least the skin and fascia of the thigh, and I am not persuaded that this is very probable. I would have to yield to possibility. I am sure that those who deal with ballistics can do better for you than I can in this regard.

Mr. SPECTER. What would your assessment of the likelihood be for a bullet under those hypothetical circumstances to have passed through the neck of the President and to have passed through only the chest of the Governor without having gone through either the wrist or into the thigh?

Dr. GREGORY. I think that is a much more plausible possibility or probability.

Mr. SPECTER. How about the likelihood of passing through the President and through the Governor's chest, but missing his wrist and passing into his thigh?

Dr. GREGORY. That, too, is plausible, I believe.

Mr. SPECTER. Are there any other circumstances of this event which have been related to you, including the striking of the President's head by a third bullet, which would account in any way, under any possibility, in your view, for the fracture of the right wrist which was apparently caused by a missile?

Mr. GREGORY. May I refer to this morning's discussions?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes, please do.

Dr. GREGORY. This morning I was shown two additional missiles or portions of missiles which are rather grossly distorted.

Mr. SPECTER. Let me make those a part of the record here, and ask if those are the missiles which have heretofore been identified as Commission Exhibit 568 and Commission Exhibit 570.

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Dr. GREGORY. These items represent distorted bits of a missile, a jacket in one case, and part of a jacket and a lead core in the other.

These are missiles having the characteristics which I mentioned earlier, which tend to carry organic debris into wounds and tend to create irregular wounds of entry. One of these, it seems to me, could conceivably have produced the injury which the Governor incurred in his wrist.

Mr. DULLES. In his wrist?

Dr. GREGORY. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. And in his thigh?

Dr. GREGORY. I don't know about that, sir. It is possible. But the rather remarkably round nature of the wound in the thigh leads me to believe that it was produced by something like the butt end of an intact missile.

Mr. SPECTER. I now hand you an exhibit heretofore identified as Commission Exhibit 388, which depicts the artist's drawing of the passage of a bullet through the President's head, and I ask you, first of all, if you have had an opportunity to observe that prior to this moment?

Dr. GREGORY. Yes, I saw this illustration this morning.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, if you assume that the trajectory through the President's head was represented by the path of a 6.5-mm. bullet which fragmented upon striking the skull, both the rear and again the top, is it possible that a fragment coming at the rate of 2,000 feet per second from the distance of approximately 160 to 250 feet, could have produced a fragment which then proceeded to strike the Governor's wrist and inflict the damage which you have heretofore described?

Dr. GREGORY. I think it is plausible that the bullet, having struck the President's head, may have broken into more than one fragment. I think you apprised me of the fact that it did, in fact, disperse into a number of fragments, and they took tangential directions from the original path apparently.

Mr. SPECTER. Assuming the fact that the autopsy surgeon presented for the record a statement that the fragments moved forward into the vicinity of the President's right eye, as the diagram shows, that there were approximately 40 star-like fragments running on a line through the head on the trajectory, and that there was substantial fragmentation of the bullet as it passed through the head, what is your view about that?

Dr. GREGORY. I think it is possible that a fragment from that particular missile may have escaped and struck the Governor's right arm.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have an opportunity to observe the slides and films commonly referred to as the Zapruder film this morning?

Dr. GREGORY. Yes; I saw those this morning.

Mr. SPECTER. Did they shed any light on the conclusions--as to your conclusions with respect to the wounds of the Governor and what you observed in the treatment of the Governor?

Dr. GREGORY. Yes, to this extent. It seemed to me in frames marked 234, 235, and 236, Governor Connally was in a position such that a single missile entered his back, could have passed through his chest, through his right forearm, and struck his thigh. That is a possibility.

I looked at the film very carefully to see if I could relate the position of Governor Connally's right arm to the movement when the missile struck the President's head, presumably the third missile, and I think that the record will show that those are obscured to a degree that the Governor's right arm cannot be seen. In the Governor's own words, he did not realize his right arm had been injured, and he has no idea when it was struck. This is historical fact to us at the time of the initial interview with him.

Mr. DULLES. Could I ask just one question? If a bullet had merely struck the Governor's arm without previously having struck anything else, is it conceivable that impediment of the bone that it hit there would be consistent with merely a flesh wound on the thigh? Do you follow me?

Dr. GREGORY. Yes; I follow you. I would doubt it on the basis of the kind of wound that the Governor has. Now the kind of wound in the Governor's right forearm is the kind that indicates there was not an excessive amount of energy expended there, which means either that the missile producing it had dissipated much of its energy, either that or there was an impediment to it someplace else along the way.

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It is simply that there was not enough energy loss there, and one would expect a soft tissue injury beyond that point to be of considerably greater magnitude.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Gregory, did I take your deposition hack on March 23. 1964, at Parkland Hospital?

Dr. GREGORY. Yes; you did.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you had an opportunity to review that deposition prior to today?

Dr. GREGORY. Yes; I have looked it over.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add, Dr. Gregory, that you think would be helpful to the Commission in any way?

Dr. GREGORY. No, sir; I do not.

Mr. DULLES. Are you in agreement with the deposition as given?

Dr. GREGORY. Yes. I don't think there are any--there is any need to change any of the essence of the deposition. There are a few typographical errors and word changes one might make, but the essence is essentially as I gave it.

Mr. SPECTER. I have no further questions, sir.

Senator COOPER. I would just ask this question. In your long experience of treating wounds, you said some 500 wounds caused by bullets, have you acquired, through that. knowledge of ballistics and characteristics of bullets?

Dr. GREGORY. Within a very limited sphere.

Senator COOPER. I know your testimony indicates that.

Dr. GREGORY. I have been concerned with the behavior of missiles in contact with tissues, but I am not very knowledgeable about the design of a missile nor how many grains of powder there are behind it. My concern was with the dissipation of the energy which it carries and the havoc that it wreaks when it goes off.

Senator COOPER. You derived that knowledge from your actual study of wounds and their treatment?

Dr. GREGORY. Study of wounds together with what I have read from the Army proving grounds, various centers, for exploring this kind of thing. I don't own a gun myself.

Mr. McCLOY. You are from Texas and you do not own a gun?

Dr. GREGORY. Well, sir, I went from Indiana to Texas. My father gave me a .410 shotgun, but he took it away from me shortly after he gave it to me.

The CHAIRMAN. Doctor, thank you very much.

Dr. GREGORY. Thank you very much, sir, Mr. Chief Justice.

(A short recess was taken.)

The CHAIRMAN. Governor, the Commission will come to order, please.

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Volume VI

TESTIMONY OF DR. CHARLES FRANCIS GREGORY

The testimony of Dr. Charles Francis Gregory was taken at 2:30 p.m., on March 23, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that at the start of this session that I have here at the moment Dr. Charles Gregory, who has appeared here in response to a letter of request from the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy.

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May I say to you, Dr. Gregory, that the purpose of the Commission is to investigate all facets relating to the assassination, including the wounding of President Kennedy, and the wounding of Governor Connally, and we have asked you to appear here for the purpose of testifying concerning your treatment of Governor Connally. Our rules specify that we make a brief statement of the purpose of the Commission, and the purpose of our calling on you. Now, will you stand up and raise your right hand?

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give before the President's Commission in this deposition proceeding will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Dr. GREGORY . I do.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you state your full name for the record, please ?

Dr. GREGORY. Dr. Charles Francis Gregory.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is your profession, sir?

Dr. GREGORY. I am a physician and surgeon.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you outline your educational background, please?

Dr. GREGORY. Yes; I received a bachelor of science degree from Indiana University in 1941, and a doctor of medicine in 1944. I have completed 5 years of post-graduate training in orthopedic surgery at the Indiana University Medical Center in 1951. I remained there excepting for an interlude with the U.S. Navy in 1953 and 1954, until 1956. In 1956 I assumed my present position, which is that of professor of orthopedic surgery and chairman of the division of orthopedic surgery at the Southwestern Medical School, University of Texas.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Gregory, are you certified by the American Board?

Dr. GREGORY. I am certified by the American Board of Orthopedic Surgery; yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And what year were you so certified?

Dr. GREGORY. In 1953. I am now a member of the American Board of Orthopedic Surgery, as a matter of fact.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Gregory, what experience, if any, have you had in the treatment of gunshot wounds?

Dr. GREGORY. My experience with the treatment of gunshot wounds began with my training in orthopedic surgery, but its greatest impetus occurred in 1953 and 1954 in the Korean theatre of operations with the U.S. Navy. Since that time here at the Parkland Hospital in Dallas our service has attended a considerable number of such injuries, plus my experience is continuing.

Mr. SPECTER. Could you approximate the total number of gunshot wounds you have had experience with?

Dr. GREGORY. I have had personal experience with, I suppose, in approximately 500 such missile wounds.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Gregory, back on November 22, 1963, did you have occasion

to treat Governor Connally?

Dr. GREGORY. I did.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you relate briefly the circumstances surrounding your call to treat the Governor?

Dr. GREGORY. I had been seeing patients in the health service at the medical school building on the morning of November 22 and was there when word was received that the President had been shot. I did not then know that the Governor had also been injured. I came to the emergency room of Parkland Hospital and upon gaining entrance to it, inquired as to whether or not Mr. Kennedy's wounds were of a nature that would require my assistance.

I was advised that they were not. I then took a number of persons from the emergency room area with me away from it in order to reduce the confusion, and I went to the orthopedic ward on the fifth floor west of Parkland Hospital. After attending some of the patients on that ward, I was preparing to leave the hospital and went by the operating room area to see whether or not I could be of any other assistance, and was apprised then that a page was out for me. At that time Dr. Shaw advised me that Governor Connally had been wounded and that among his wounds were those to the right forearm and the left thigh. He had asked that I stay and attend those wounds after he had completed care of the Governor's chest wound.

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Mr. SPECTER. At approximately what time did you have that conversation with Dr. Shaw?

Dr. GREGORY. To the best of my knowledge. that conversation must have been about between 1 and 1:15 in the afternoon of November 22.

Mr. SPECTER. And that conversation was with Dr. Shaw ?

Dr. GREGORY. Dr. Robert Shaw.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, what part did Dr. Robert Shaw have in the treatment of Governor Connally in a general way?

Dr. GREGORY. Well, Dr. Robert Shaw attended the most serious wound that the Governor sustained, which was one to his right chest, and it was his operation which took precedence over all others.

Mr. SPECTER. And, was that operation completed before your operation commenced ?

Dr. GREGORY. Yes; Dr. Shaw's operation had been completed before we even arranged the Governor's right arm and left thigh for definitive care.

Mr. SPECTER. At approximately what time did your operation of Governor Connally begin?

Dr. GREGORY. My operation on Governor Connally began about 4 o'clock p.m. on Friday, November 22.

Mr. SPECTER. And approximately how long did it last?

Dr. GREGORY. The better part of an hour--I should judge---45 to 50 minutes.

Mr. SPECTER. Who, if anyone, assisted you in that operation?

Dr. GREGORY. I was assisted by the junior orthopedic resident, Dr. William Osborne, and the orthopedic intern, Dr. John Parker.

Mr. SPECTER. What was Governor Connally's condition when you first saw him with respect to his chest wounds, first, if you will, please tell us?

Dr. GREGORY. I did not see Governor Connally myself until he had been taken into the operating room and had had an endotracheal tube placed in his larynx and had been anesthetized. Having accomplished this, the very precarious mechanics of respiration had been corrected and his general status at that time was quite satisfactory.

Mr. SPECTER. What observations did you have with respect to his wound in the chest?

Dr. GREGORY. I had none, really, for the business of prepping and draping was underway at that time, and I did not intrude other than to observe very casually, and I don't remember any details of it.

Now, I did see in the course of the operation the wound in his chest, the wound of entry, and its posterior surface and the wound of exit on the anterior surface.

Mr. SPECTER. What did the wound of entry look like, Doctor?

Dr. GREGORY. It appeared to me that the wound of entry was sort of a linear wound, perhaps three-quarters of an inch in length with a rounded central portion. Whereas, the wound of exit was rather larger than this, perhaps an inch and a half across.

Mr. SPECTER. And at approximately what part of the body was the wound that you described as the wound of entry?

Dr. GREGORY. In view of the drapes that were on the Governor at the time, I will have to speculate, but as I recall best, it was in an area probably 2 inches below and medial to the right nipple.

Mr. SPECTER. Is that the wound of entry or exit?

Dr. GREGORY. That's the wound of exit.

Mr. SPECTER. How about the wound of entry?

Dr. GREGORY. The wound of entry was too obscure for me to identify, since it was just in general over the posterior aspect of his chest.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe with respect to the wound of his wrist?

Dr. GREGORY. I didn't see the wound of his wrist until after the chest operation had been completed, because his arm was covered by the operation drapes, the surgical drapes for the chest procedure.

Mr. SPECTER. And when you did have an opportunity to observe the wound of the wrist, what did you then see?

Dr. GREGORY. I observed the wound on the dorsal aspect of his wrist, which was about 2 cm. in length, ragged, somewhat irregular, and lay about an inch

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and a half or 2 inches above the wrist joint. It was a little to the radial side of the wrist area.

There was a second wound in the wrist on the volar surface, about a centimeter and a half proximal to the distal flexion crease and this wound was a transverse laceration no more than a centimeter in length and did not gape.

Mr. SPECTER. When you say on the dorsal aspect, what is that?

Dr. GREGORY. In lay terms, that's equivalent to the back of the hand.

Mr. SPECTER. And the volar is equivalent to what?

Dr. GREGORY. The palm surface of the hand.

Mr. SPECTER. What conclusion, if any, did you reach as to which was the wound of entry and exit on the wrist ?

Dr. GREGORY. Based on certain findings in the wound at the time the debridement was carried out--

Mr. SPECTER. Will you define debridement before you proceed with that?

Dr. GREGORY. Yes; debridement is a surgical term used to designate that procedure in attending a wound which removes by sharp excision all nonvital tissue in the area together with any identifiable foreign objects.

In attending this wound, it was evident early that clot had been carried into the wound from the dorsal surface to the bone and into the fracture. This would imply that an irregular missile had passed through the wrist from the dorsal to the volar aspect.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, were there any characteristics in the volar aspect which would indicate that it was a wound of exit?

Dr. GREGORY. No; there were none, really. It was my assumption that the missile had expended much of its remaining energy in passing through the radius bone, which it did before it could emerge through the soft tissues.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any foreign objects identifiable as bits of fragments or portions of a bullet missile?

Dr. GREGORY. A preliminary X-ray had indicated that there were metallic fragments or at least metallic fragments which cast metallic shadows in the soft tissues around the wounded forearm. Two or three of these were identified and were recovered and were observed to be metallic in consistency. These were turned over to appropriate authorities for further disposition.

Mr. SPECTER. Approximately how large were those fragments, Dr. Gregory?

Dr. GREGORY. I would judge that they were first--fiat, rather thin, and that their greatest dimension would probably not exceed one-eighth of an inch. They were very small.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you have sufficient experience with gunshot wounds to comment as to whether a 6.5-mm. bullet could have passed through the Governor's wrist in the way you have described, leaving the fragments which you have described and still have virtually all the bullet missile intact, or having 158 grains of a bullet at that time?

Dr. GREGORY. Well, I am not an expert on ballistics, but one cannot escape certain ballistic implications in this business.

I would say, first of all, that how much of the missile remains intact as a mass depends to some extent on how hard the metal is. Obviously, if it is very soft, as lead, it may lose more fragments and therefore more weight and volume than it might if it is made of a harder material or is jacketed in some way.

Now, the energy in the missile is a product, not so much of its mass as it is of its velocity, for by doubling the velocity, you can increase the kinetic energy in the force it transmits, fourfold, since the formula for determining energy in these cases is a matter of mass times velocity squared, rather than just linear functional velocity. So, some knowledge of how much of the cartridge force might have been behind the missile would be useful here too.

Mr. SPECTER. For the purpose of this consideration, I am interested to know whether the metal which you found in the wrist was of sufficient size so that the bullet which passed through the wrist could not have emerged virtually completely intact or with 158 grains intact, or whether the portions of the metallic fragments were so small that that would be consistent with having Virtually the entire 6.5-mm. bullet emerge.

Dr. GREGORY. Well, considering the small volume of metal as seen by X-ray, and the very small dimensions of the metal which was recovered, I think several

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such fragments could have been flaked off of a total missile mass without reducing its volume greatly.

Now, just how much, depends of course upon what the original missile weighed. In other words, on the basis of the metal left behind in Governor Connally's body, as far as I could tell, the missile that struck it could be virtually intact, insofar as mass was concerned, but probably was distorted.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you have any idea at all as to what the fragments which you observed in the Governor's wrist might weigh, Doctor?

Dr. GREGORY. No, not really, but it would have been very small---very small. Mr. SPECTER. What treatment or action did you take with respect to treating the Governor's wrist for him, Dr. Gregory?

Dr. GREGORY. Upon completing the debridement, we were then faced with a decision as to whether we should suture his wound in the conventional manner or not, and we chose not to, leaving the wound open in deference to potential infection that might be produced by retained fragments of clothing. Having decided upon that course of action, the fractured radius bone was then manipulated into a reduced position and the entire limb was encased in a plaster-paris cast.

Mr. SPECTER. Did that complete your operative procedure?

Dr. GREGORY. That completed my operative procedure for that day for Governor Connally--yes.

Mr. SPECTER. What other wounds, if any, did you notice on the Governor at that time?

Dr. GREGORY. In addition to the chest wound and the wound just described in his right forearm there was a wound in the medical aspect of his left thigh. This was almost round and did not seem to have disturbed the tissues badly, but did definitely penetrate and pass through the skin and to the fascia beneath. I could not tell from the superficial inspection whether it had passed through the fascia. An X-ray was made of his thigh at that time and there was not present in his thigh any missile of sufficient magnitude, in my opinion, to have produced the wound observed on his medial aspect. Repeat X-rays failed to reveal any such missile and an additional examination failed to reveal any wound of exit.

Mr. SPECTER. What did the X-rays reveal with respect to the presence of a missile?

Dr. GREGORY. In the thigh there was a very small shadow, perhaps 1 mm. by 2 mm. in dimension, lying close to the medial aspect of the femur, that is, the thigh bone, but was in my opinion much too small to have accounted for the dimensions of the wound on the medial aspect of his thigh or a wound of that character.

Mr. SPECTER. What were the dimensions of the wound on the medial aspect of his thigh.

Dr. GREGORY. I would say that that wound was about a centimeter in diameter, much larger than the identifiable fragment of metal in the thigh. I might add that this prompted some speculation on our part, my part, which was voiced to someone that some search ought to be made in the Governor's clothing or perhaps in the auto or some place, wherever he may have been, for the missile which had produced this much damage but which was not resident in him.

Mr. SPECTER. Approximately what type of a missile would it have taken to produce a wound which you have described on his thigh ?

Dr. GREGORY. Well, it would take a fragment of metal of approximately the same diameter--a centimeter, and in general---round.

Mr. SPECTER. Would that correspond with the measurement of a 6.5-mm. missile ?

Dr. GREGORY. I will have to guess--I don't know what dimension-of a 6.5-mm.--yes, a 6.5-mm. would be .65 cm., approximately, yes, that could have very well have occurred from such a missile, yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Gregory, I now show you two typewritten pages which are a portion of a document identified as Commission Exhibit No. 392, which in its total aspect constitutes all of the medical records from Parkland Hospital on President Kennedy and Governor Connally and the two pages to which I direct your attention relate an operation on Governor Connally, where you are

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listed as the surgeon, and I ask you if you will take a minute and look those over and tell us whether or not that is your report on the operation which you have just been describing.

Dr. GREGORY. (Examining instrument referred to.) Yes, this appears to be the essence of the report which I dictated at the conclusion of my operation on Governor Connally.

Mr. SPECTER. And are the facts contained in this report the same as those to which you have testified here today?

Dr. GREGORY. I think they are---I hope so.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, will you describe in a general way what treatment you have given Governor Connally following the time when you completed this report on November 22, 1963?

Dr. GREGORY. The Governor remained in Parkland Hospital for some 2 weeks after his admission. On the 5th day after the operation, in the Governor's hospital room, the wound on the dorsal surface of his wrist was closed by wire sutures and this was carried out in the room. On the 10th day, I believe it was, the 10th day from injury, the Governor was taken back to the operating room and there under a light general anesthesia, his wounds were dressed and inspected, and a new plaster of paris cast was applied at that time.

The Governor was then permitted up and about with his arm in a sling, and shortly thereafter returned to the Governor's Mansion in Austin. I visited Governor Connally in the Governor's Mansion in Austin about 1 week after his discharge from the hospital, simply for check-up examination and I found things to be in a satisfactory state.

I saw the Governor again about 1 month after his discharge, in the office of Dr. Robert A. Dennison in Austin, Tex., and another examination this time, including an X-ray, was made, and again the condition of his right forearm and of the fractured bone were considered to be satisfactory.

Now, I've got to think of the next date--off of the record or on as you wish---

Mr. SPECTER. All right, we will go off of the record, Doctor, while you are thinking that through.

Dr. GREGORY. All right,

(Discussion between Counsel Specter and the Witness Gregory off the record.)

Mr. SPECTER. All right, Dr. Gregory.

Dr. GREGORY. I'll say on or about February 14, the Governor came to Dallas and on that occasion we removed his cast, obtained an X-ray, found his fracture to be healing satisfactorily, and so we applied a new cast. The Governor wore that cast until 1 week ago, when he again came to Dallas. The cast was removed, and X-ray revealed satisfactory healing of his fracture, and the cast, as a continuous form of treatment, was discontinued.

At the present time the Governor is on a regiment of exercises, and he wears a demountable splint, whenever it looks as though the electorate may be over enthusiastic by shaking his hand.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you anticipate any future cast for Governor Connally?

Dr. GREGORY. I anticipate probably an uneventful, though slow, recovery of normal function in his right arm and wrist and hand.

I think he will have some permanent impairment, but I think he will have a very minimal amount of disability, and I do not at this time anticipate any need for any further surgical intervention. That will have to become manifest by the appearance of some other as yet unanticipated symptom.

I would like to add that on each of the examination interviews here in Dallas, the Governor was also checked over by Dr. Robert Shaw, from the point of view of recovery from his chest wound.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Gregory, I now show you a series of diagrams which are a part of reports bearing Commission No. 326 and may the record show these differ from Commission Exhibit numbers, reflecting the number assigned to reports.

I am going to ask the Court Reporter to make this particular copy as Dr. Gregory's Exhibit No. 1.

(Instrument marked by the Reporter as Dr. Gregory's Exhibit No. 1, for identification.)

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Mr. SPECTER. I am going to ask you, pointing first to Diagram No. 1, whether or not this accurately depicts the wounds of Governor Connally ?

Dr. GREGORY. This one does not.

Mr. SPECTER. In what respect?

Dr. GREGORY. In the respect that the wound of entry is shown to exist on the volar surface of the forearm, whereas, it was on the dorsal surface of the forearm in my view---in my opinion---and the reverse holds for the wound of exit.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you take my pen and correct those as they should be, Doctor Gregory?

Dr. GREGORY. (Complied with request of Counsel Specter.)

Mr. SPECTER. Now, turning to Exhibit, Diagram No. 2 on this exhibit, and calling your attention specifically to the point of entry and the point of exit on the diagram of a man standing, does that correspond with the angle of declination on Governor Connally's wound?

Dr. GREGORY. To the best of my knowledge, this would fairly accurately depict that angle. If I were to have any reservation at all, it would be with reference to the height or the position of the wounds of entry, as being marked a little high, but this is recalling from memory, and it may not be correct.

Mr. SPECTER. I now call your attention to Diagram No. 3 on this sequence and ask if this accurately depicts the condition of the Governor's wounds?

Dr. GREGORY. I think that this one comes more closely into line with their actual location, especially with reference to the wound of entry in the posterior aspect of the chest. It is a little lower here, as I recall it to be. Those of the wrist, I think are accurately depicted, and that of the thigh are believed to be accurately depicted.

Mr. SPECTER And on these wrist wounds, do they show the point of entry to be on the dorsal aspect and the point of exit to be on the volar aspect?

Dr. GREGORY. According to the anatomical position, I believe that they do; yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, looking at Diagram No. 4, does this again correspond with your recollection of the angle of decline on Governor Connally?

Dr. GREGORY. Again, if I have a reservation it would be to the wound of entry and the posterior aspect as being shown a little higher than it actually existed.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, Dr. Gregory, I turn to Diagram No. 5, which depicts a seated man and what does Diagram No. 5 depict to your eye with respect to what action is described on the seated man ?

Dr. GREGORY. Well, I should say that this composite has alined the several parts of the body demonstrated in such a way that a single missile following a constant trajectory could have accounted for all of the wounds which are shown.

Moreover, this is consistent with the point of entry which is depicted on the side views showing the angle of declination. I submit that the angle of declination in passing through the chest could be very simply altered by having an individual lean forward a few degrees, and similarly could be made much deeper by having him lean backward, without really changing the basic relationship between the parts, nor in any way affecting the likelihood that all parts could have come into this same trajectory.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you consider it possible, in your professional opinion, for the same bullet to have inflicted all of the wounds which you have described on Governor Connally?

Dr. GREGORY. Yes; I believe it very possible, for a number of reasons. One of these is the apparent loss of energy manifested at each of the various body surfaces, which I transacted, the greatest energy being at the point of entry on the posterior aspect of the chest and of the fifth rib, where considerable destruction was .done and the least destruction having been done in the medial aspect of the thigh where the bullet apparently expended itself.

Mr. SPECTER. What destruction was done on the fifth rib, Dr. Gregory?

Dr. GREGORY. It is my understanding from conversations with Dr. Shaw, and I believe his medical reports bear this out, that the fifth rib was literally shattered by the missile.

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We know that high velocity bullets striking bone have a strong tendency to shatter bones and the degree to which the fifth rib was shattered was considerably in excess of the amount of shattering which occurred in the radius--the forearm.

Mr. SPECTER. And what conclusion, if any, did you draw as to the velocity of the missile, as to the time it struck each of those bony portions?

Dr. GREGORY. I think that the missile was continually losing velocity with each set of tissues which it encountered and transacted, and the amount of damage done is progressively less from first entrance in the thorax to the last entrance in the thigh.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you think it possible that Governor Connally was shot by two bullets, with one hitting in the posterior part of his body and the second one striking the back side of his wrist?

Dr. GREGORY. The possibility exists, but I would discount it for these reasons--ordinarily, a missile in flight---I'll qualify that---a high velocity missile in flight does not tend to carry organic material into the wound which it creates.

I believe if you will inspect the record which was prepared by Dr. Shaw, there is no indication that any clothing or other organic material was found in the chest wound.

An irregular missile can carry debris into a wound and such debris was carried into the wound of the wrist. I would have expected that an undistorted high velocity missile striking the wrist would not have carried material into it.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there any other characteristic which led and leads you to conclude that the wrist was not the initial point of impact of a single high velocity bullet?

Dr. GREGORY. Yes. Based on our experience with high velocity missile wounds of the forearm produced by rifles of the deer hunting calibre, there is tremendous soft tissue destruction as well as bone fragmentation which not infrequently culminates in amputation of the part.

I do not believe that the missile wound in Governor Connally's right forearm was produced by a missile of such magnitude at the time it struck him. It either had to be one of lower initial energy or a missile which had been partially expended elsewhere before it struck his wrist.

Mr. SPECTER. Would that opinion apply if you assumed that the missile had initial velocity when leaving the muzzle of the weapon of 200 feet per second?

Dr. GREGORY. That's not a very high velocity missile.

Mr. SPECTER. Pardon me---2,000 feet per second.

Dr. GREGORY. I should say that a missile at 2,000 feet per second that strikes the forearm is likely to blow it very nearly off, if it is a missile of any mass as well.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, assume that you have a muzzle velocity of 2,000 feet per second and assume the mass is 6.5 mm, and assume further that the distance between the muzzle and the wrist is approximately 160 to 250 feet away, what would you expect, based on your experience, that the consequences would be on that wrist?

Dr. GREGORY. I will have to say that most of the high velocity rifle wounds that I have seen of the forearm have, in fact, been at a closer range than that which you have stipulated, but I doubt that a range of 155 or 200 feet would seriously reduce the energy, and I would expect a similar wound, under the circumstances which you have described.

Mr. SPECTER. Let me add another possibility in this sequence, Dr. Gregory, and ask you your opinion with respect to an additional intervening victim in the path of the same bullet to this effect---assume that President Kennedy was riding in an open automobile directly behind Governor Connally, and that at a distance of approximately 175 feet President Kennedy was struck by a bullet from a weapon with a muzzle velocity of 2,000 feet per second, carrying a 6.5 mm. missile and that the missile entered in the upper right of the President's back very near the neckline and passed through his body, striking no bony material, and emerged from the throat of the President. Is it possible that missile could have then entered the back of the Governor and inflicted the chest wound which you have described ?

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Dr. GREGORY. I would have to concede that that would be possible---yes.

Mr. SPECTER. What would your professional opinion be, if you can formulate one, as to whether or not that actually did happen in this situation?

Dr. GREGORY. I really couldn't formulate an objective opinion about it. Only, for this reason, that it would then become a question simply of trajectories, and lining the two bodies up in such a way that this sequence of events could have occurred. I would hazard one guess, that is, that had the missile that struck Governor Connally passed through President Kennedy first, that though the missile would not have been distorted necessarily, it would very probably have

begun to tumble. Now, if you like, I will define that for you.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you please?

Dr. GREGORY. A tumbling is a second---it actually is a third component of motion that a missile may go through in its trajectory. First, there is a linear motion from muzzle to target on point of impact. In order to keep a missile on its path, there is imparted to it a rotary motion so that it is spinning. Now, both of these are commensurate with the constant trajectory. A third component, which is tumbling, and is literally the end over end motion, which may be imparted to a missile should it strike something in flight that deflects but does not stop it---in this circumstance the wound of entry created by such a missile usually is quite large and the destruction it creates is increased, as a matter of fact, by such tumbling, and I would have therefore expected to see perhaps some organic material carried into a large wound of entry in Governor Connally's back.

These are only theoretical observations, but these are some of the reasons why I would believe that the missile in the Governor behaved as though it had never struck anything except him.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe the nature of the wound in the Governor's back?

Dr. GREGORY. Only so far as I saw it as Dr. Shaw was preparing to operate on it, but I was unable to see the nature of the wound as he carried out his operation. I did, however, specifically question him about this matter of containing foreign material, clothing, etc.

Mr. SPECTER. What did he say about that?

Dr. GREGORY. Well, as I recall it, he said none was found, and I would not have expected any to be found as I explained to you, if this was the initial impact of that missile.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, wouldn't you think it possible, bearing in mind that my last question only went as to whether the same bullet could have gone through President Kennedy and inflicted the wound on Governor Connally's chest, would you think it possible that the same missile could have gone through President Kennedy in the way I described and have inflicted all three of the wounds, that is, the entry and exit on the chest, the entry and exit on the wrist, and the entry into the thigh which you described.

Dr. GREGORY. I suspect it's possible, but I would say it would have to be a remarkably powerful missile to have done so.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Gregory, have you been interviewed about this matter prior to today by any representative of the Federal Government?

Dr. GREGORY. Yes; on two or three occasions I have talked to a properly identified member of the Secret Service, Mr. Warren, I believe it was.

Mr. SPECTER. And what was the nature of the information which you gave to Mr. Warren on those occasions?

Dr. GREGORY. Essentially the same thing as I have told you here, but in much less detail.

Mr. SPECTER. And have you ever talked to anyone besides Mr. Warren and me about these matters, from the Federal Government?

Dr. GREGORY. No; not that I know of. I was on a day or so after the assassination spoken to in these offices by a member of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, but it was a very brief interview.

Mr. SPECTER. What was that about?

Dr. GREGORY. And I think it was the question of whether or not I had been able to recover any metal from Governor Connally which they might use for ballistic analysis.

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I regret to say I don't know the gentleman's name, but he too was properly identified.

Mr. SPECTER. And prior to the time when the Court Reporter started to transcribe the deposition which you have been kind enough to provide us with, had you and I been talking about the same subjects which you have answered

questions on all during the course of this deposition?

Dr. GREGORY. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And during the time that you first were interviewed by the Secret Service down through the present moment, have you had the same general opinion concerning the matters which you have testified about here today ?

Dr. GREGORY. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add which you think would be helpful in any way to the work of the Commission?

Dr. GREGORY. No; not really. This is the only articulation I have had with this whole episode concerning Governor Connally's wound and his subsequent recovery and none other.

Mr. SPECTER Thank you very much, Dr. Gregory, for coming.

Dr. GREGORY. Very well.

Dr. JACKIE HUNT Volume VI

TESTIMONY OF DR. JACKIE HANSEN HUNT

The testimony of Dr. Jackie Hansen Hunt was taken at 1:12 p.m., on March 24, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that Dr. Jackie H. Hunt is present, and may I show for the record that the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy is conducting an inquiry into all the facts surrounding the assassination of the President, and the medical care performed on President Kennedy at Parkland Memorial Hospital.

Dr. Hunt appears here today in response to a letter requesting that her deposition be taken; and may the record reflect the additional fact that Dr. Hunt is a lady doctor.

Would you at this time, Dr. Hunt, stand up and raise your right hand?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give before the President's Commission in this deposition proceeding will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?

Dr. HUNT. I do, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you state your full name, please?

Dr. HUNT. Jackie Hansen Hunt, H-a-n-s~e-n (spelling).

Mr. SPECTER And what is your profession?

Dr. HUNT. Medical doctor.

Mr. SPECTER And, are you duly licensed to practice medicine by the State of Texas?

Dr. HUNT. I am.

Mr. SPECTER. And in what year were you so licensed?

Dr. HUNT. 1950.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you outline briefly your educational background, please?

Dr. HUNT. I graduated from medical school at Tulane College of Medicine in 1949. I had a year of rotating internship followed by a year of pediatric residency. In 1961 I started a residency in anesthesiology, which I completed in 1963, and I am now a fellow in anesthesiology.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you board certified, then, Dr. Hunt, at this time?

Dr. HUNT. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you working toward board certification?

Dr. HUNT. Yes, I am. I am eligible and will take the first part in June.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion on November 22 to render medical aid to the late President Kennedy ?

Dr. HUNT. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you relate briefly the circumstances surrounding your being called into the case?

Dr. HUNT. I was in Parkland Hospital on duty with the anesthesiology department and was notified by our chief of staff, Dr. M. T. Jenkins, that the President had been shot. Together with Dr. Giesecke and Dr. Akin, I got an anesthesia machine and put it on an elevator and checked it out and set it up on the way to the emergency room and took it into the emergency room where the President was and he had been intubated, and I helped Dr. Jenkins connect the anesthesia machine to the endotracheal tube which at that time was being run, I believe, by a Bird machine, and after making certain that the connections were properly done, I placed the equipment in Dr. Jenkins' hands.

Mr. SPECTER. What doctors were present when you arrived there, Dr. Hunt?

Dr. HUNT. Dr. Jenkins, Dr. Male Perry--quite a number of others--I just can't remember who was there today.

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Mr. SPECTER. Were any nurses present?

Dr. HUNT. Yes--I don't know the names of any of them.

Mr. SPECTER. What, if anything, did you observe as to the condition of President Kennedy?

Dr. HUNT. The first good look I took at him I noticed that his eyes were opened and that the pupils were widely dilated and fixed and so I assumed that he was in essence dead.

Mr. SPECTER. At approximately what time did you arrive in the emergency room?

Dr. HUNT. I don't know--it would have been--I would think near 12:45, but I've really never even thought about it and I frankly don't remember.

Mr. SPECTER. And how long after you arrived did you have an opportunity to observe the President in the way which you have just described?

Dr. HUNT. How long was it from the time I came in until I looked at him?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes ma'am.

Dr. HUNT. A minute--2 minutes.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any other observations at that time?

Dr. HUNT. No--other than that everyone was working on him. They were doing cardiac massage, closed chest massage, I.V.'s were running, and others were being started.

Mr. SPECTER. I.V.s?

Dr. HUNT. Intravenous fluids and, of course, our department was breathing for him.

Mr. SPECTER. And when you say "breathing for him," what do you mean by that ?

Dr. HUNT. Ventilating him--an endotracheal tube down into the trachea attached to an anesthesia machine with 100 percent oxygen going, and by manual compression of the bag, ventilating him.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any wounds on the President?

Dr. HUNT. I actually did not see the wounds.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you at any time see a wound to the head?

Dr. HUNT. No; I didn't see it.

Mr. SPECTER. And was there something obscuring your view from seeing the head wound?

Dr. HUNT. Yes; I could see his face and I could also see that a great deal of blood was running off of the table from his right side and I was on his left side.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you near his head or foot or the middle of the body?

Dr. HUNT. I was about midbody actually, well, no-more at his shoulder, when I leaned over to look at him.

Mr. SPECTER: Did you ever observe any wound in the neck?

Dr. HUNT. I did not actually see the wound in the neck. I say that because I assumed there was a wound--someone's hand was there and there was blood present, but there was blood on nearly everyone.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the condition of his throat when you first observed him, if you did observe it at all?

Dr. HUNT. I couldn't--I don't know--I can't say. You mean, as far as inside or outside?

Mr. SPECTER Outside.

Dr. HUNT. I don't actually remember seeing anything except someone's hands were using a sponge or something was present in the area.

Mr. SPECTER. What medical operation, if any, was performed on his throat?

Dr. HUNT. I don't know.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe a tracheotomy being performed on his throat?

Dr. HUNT. No--that's not to say that they were not doing one.

Mr. SPECTER What else was done for the President other than that which you have already described?

Dr. HUNT. Well, let's see, I don't--as far as actual observation, I didn't-- other things were done--I left at this time and went to Governor Connally.

Mr. SPECTER. At about what time did you leave President Kennedy?

Dr. HUNT. I was probably in the room no more than 4 minutes at the most.

Mr. SPECTER. Had he been pronounced dead by the time you left?

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Dr. HUNT. No; he had not.

Mr. SPECTER. And where did you go when you left the President's room?

Dr. HUNT. Straight across to operating room 2.

Mr. SPECTER. And what did you find in operating room 2 when you arrived there?

Dr. HUNT. Governor Connally was present there and--

Mr. SPECTER. What doctors, if any, were present when you arrived?

Dr. HUNT. Red Duke I'm sorry,. I just don't remember who the others were. There were three or four.

Mr. SPECTER. What action was being taken with respect to Governor Connally upon your arrival there?

Dr. HUNT. They were placing chest tubes, as a matter of fact, they had one in and were putting the other one in, and were--they had an I.V. going, I believe someone had done a cutdown, and they were checking other wounds. He had a wound on his arm and another wound down on his leg, I think, and that was about it--preparing to take him promptly up to surgery.

Mr. SPECTER. And what did you do on that occasion?

Dr. HUNT. I walked in and Dr. Duke looked up and the first thing I did was to look at the Governor--I took his pulse and he spoke to me and said something, and noted his color.

Mr. SPECTER. What did the Governor say to you?

Dr. HUNT. He said something like, "It hurts," not anything real specific, but he did at least speak, and it was a conscious thought type of thing, so that he was more or less alert, responding, so then I stepped back into the hall and signaled a fellow, a medical student who has been in our department, that is rotating through anesthesia, and I happened to see him just outside the door, and I asked him to please go upstairs and bring me another unit of equipment and then came back in and told Dr. Duke I had sent for equipment, although I didn't believe the Governor was going to need it, and he said that he was very glad that I had and he, too, didn't think he would need it, but he should have it as a standby, and then they brought me a machine and my table down and I stayed with the Governor until he was ready to go upstairs, but he did not require any respiratory aid because he was not that critical.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you participate any further with the treatment of Governor Connally ?

Dr. HUNT. When we were ready to go upstairs, I went back to the room where the President was and Dr. Giesecke, who is a staff member from our department, appeared relatively free and I asked him if he would come and go upstairs with the Governor and I came on upstairs in a different route. I didn't go in the elevator with the Governor--Dr. Giesecke went with him, and helped Dr. Giesecke get under way with the surgery.

Mr. SPECTER. How did you go upstairs, by what route?

Dr. HUNT. I don't know--I don't remember.

Mr. SPECTER. Is there any other elevator going up to the operating rooms?

Dr. HUNT. Yes; there are four elevators.

Mr. SPECTER. But do those lead from the emergency rooms?

Dr. HUNT. No; you come down this long hallway up to those of the ground floor.

Mr. SPECTER. Is there more than one elevator for the stretcher to go through from the emergency room up to the second floor operating rooms?

Dr. HUNT. Yes; they can--they come up to these.

Mr. SPECTER. What route would they have to take to do this?

Dr. HUNT. They would have to come directly out of the emergency room and down this main hallway to this front bank of elevators.

Mr. SPECTER. That would be a pretty long route, would it not ?

Dr. HUNT. Actually, it isn't very long. I don't know in yards or paces even, but there are three elevators there.

Mr. SPECTER. What route did Governor Connally use?

Dr. HUNT. I. think they took him by the back elevator, the one that comes down into the emergency room.

Mr. SPECTER. Is that the one they customarily use to take people from the emergency area into the operating room ?

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Dr. HUNT. Yes; if there is an emergency it goes straight up---they usually use that one.

Mr. SPECTER. You say you went back to President Kennedy's room?

Dr. HUNT. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And what did you observe there at that time?

Dr. HUNT. At that time I did notice, and possibly this was there earlier, I noticed that they had gotten more monitoring equipment in and connected the electronic equipment for monitoring the electrocardiogram.

Mr. SPECTER. At what time did you return to President Kennedy's room?

Dr. HUNT. I don't know--it would probably have been maybe 3 or 4 or 5 minutes from the time I stepped out, because I went across the hall--I didn't know the Governor was there, and someone told me and I went in and just took a brief look at him to sort of size up his condition, and stepped out and sent for my equipment and went back in and stayed until they brought my equipment. It would have been a little longer than 4 or 5 minutes because they had to bring the equipment down the elevator and it had arrived and been there a few minutes---3 or 4 minutes before we were ready to take him upstairs.

Mr. SPECTER. And what was going on in the President's room when you returned there?

Dr. HUNT. Well, there were still a goodly number of people, oh, at least 10 people, possibly there were more--I'm not real sure, but there were still--at that time there were, I know, at least three anesthesiologists in there--Dr. Jenkins, Dr. Akin, and Dr. Giesecke, and I believe Dr. Baxter was in there and Dr. Perry was still there.

Mr. SPECTER. Were they still working on the President at that time?

Dr. HUNT. Yes, sir; I don't know what they were doing.

Mr. SPECTER. How long did you stay on that occasion?

Dr. HUNT. Just, oh, a minute just long enough to catch Dr. Giesecke's eye and let him know I was there and going out.

Mr. SPECTER. And did you ever return to the President's room?

Dr. HUNT. No; I don't believe I did--no; I'm sure I didn't, because I came on upstairs with Governor Connally.

Mr. SPECTER. And did you participate then with Governor Connally's operation?

Dr. HUNT. I helped Dr. Giesecke during the induction of anesthesia.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you talked to any representative of the Federal Government prior to today?

Dr. HUNT. No; I haven't.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you make any written report of your participation in the care of Governor Connally and President Kennedy?

Dr. HUNT. Not directly. Dr. Giesecke called me one day and said that, I think it was the A.M.A. was here and just wanted to verify my movements for the day, which I told him and he in turn told them that--I did not appear before them.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you make any written reports yourself?

Dr. HUNT. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any notes of any sort concerning your participation?

Dr. HUNT. None whatsoever.

Mr. SPECTER. Prior to the time the court reporter started to take down the transcript of my questions and your answers, did you and I have a brief discussion about the purpose of this deposition?

Dr. HUNT. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And the questions I would ask you?

Dr. HUNT. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And is the information which you have provided on the record the same as you told me before the written deposition started?

Dr. HUNT. Elaborated somewhat.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add which you think might be of aid to the Commission in its investigation?

Dr. HUNT. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much for appearing, Dr. Hunt.

Dr. HUNT. Thank you.

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Dr. Kenneth Everett Salyer

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TESTIMONY OF DR. KENNETH EVERETT SALYER

Dr McClelland Volume VI

TESTIMONY OF DR. ROBERT NELSON McCLELLAND

The testimony of Dr. Robert Nelson McClelland was taken on March 21, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you raise your right hand?

Dr. McCLELLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give in these proceedings will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?

Dr. McCLELLAND. I do.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. McClelland, the purpose of this proceeding is to take your deposition in connection with an investigation which is being conducted by the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy, and the specific purpose of our requesting you to answer questions relates to the topic of the medical care which President Kennedy received at Parkland Memorial Hospital.

Dr. McClelland, will you tell us your full name for the record, please?

Dr. McCLELLAND. Robert Nelson McClelland.

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Mr. SPECTER. Have you received a letter from the Commission which enclosed a copy of the Executive order creating the Commission, and a copy of the Congressional Resolution pertaining to the Commission, and a copy of the procedures for taking testimony under the Commission?

Dr. McCLELLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And is it satisfactory with you to answer these questions for us today, even though you haven't had the 3 days between the time of the receipt of the letter and today?

Dr. McCLELLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your profession, Doctor?

Dr. McCLELLAND. I am a doctor of medicine.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you outline briefly your educational background, starting with your graduation from college, please?

Dr. McCLELLAND. Since graduation from college I attended medical school at the University of Texas, medical branch in Galveston, Tex., and received the M.D. degree from that school in 1954. I then went to Kansas City, Kans., where I did a rotating internship at the University of Kansas Medical Center from June 1954 to June 1955. Following that period I was a general medical officer in the Air Force for 2 years in Germany, and subsequent to my release from active duty, I became a general surgery resident at Parkland Memorial Hospital in Dallas in August of 1957. I remained at Parkland from that date to August 1959, at which time I entered private practice for ten months, and then reentered my general surgery training program at Parkland in June 1960. I completed my 4 years of, general surgical training in June 1962. Following that time I became a full-time instructor of surgery on the staff of the University of Texas, Southwestern Medical School, and I am at the present time an associate professor of surgery at that school.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. McClelland, in connection with your duties at Parkland Hospital, or before, have you had any experience with gunshot wounds?

Dr. McCLELLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Where in your background did you acquire that experience?

Dr. McCLELLAND. Largely during residency training and subsequent to that in my capacity here on the staff.

Mr. SPECTER. And what has provided the opportunity for your experience here at Parkland in residency training and on the staff with respect to acquiring knowledge of gunshot wounds?

Mr. SPECTER. Could you approximate for me the total number of gunshot wounds which you have had an opportunity to observe?

Dr. McCLELLAND. I would estimate that it would be in excess of 200.

Mr. SPECTER. What was your duty assignment back on November 22, 1963?

Dr. McCLELLAND. At that time I was showing a film on surgical techniques to a group of students and residents on the second floor of Parkland Hospital in the surgical suite, where I was notified of the fact that President Kennedy was being brought to the Parkland emergency room after having been shot.

Mr. SPECTER. And what action, if any, did you take following that notification?

Mr. SPECTER. And approximately what time did you arrive in Emergency Room 1?

Dr. McCLELLAND. This is a mere approximation, but I would approximate or estimate, rather, about 12:40.

Mr. SPECTER And who was present, if anyone, at the time of your arrival?

Dr. McCLELLAND. At the time I arrived, Dr. Perry---would you like the full names of all these?

Mr. SPECTER. That would be fine, I would appreciate that.

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Mr. SPECTER. Were they all present at the time you arrived?

Dr. McCLELLAND. They were not present when I arrived.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you start with the ones who were present?

Dr. McCLELLAND. Starting with the ones who were present, I'm sorry, the ones who were present when I arrived were Drs. Carrico, Perry and Baxter. The others I mentioned arrived subsequently or about the same time that I did.

Mr. SPECTER. Then, what other doctors, if any, arrived after you did, in addition to those whom you have already mentioned?

Dr. McCLELLAND. In addition, the ones that arrived afterwards, were Dr. Kenneth Salyer.

Mr. SPECTER. S-a-l-y-e-r?

Dr. McCLELLAND. S-a-l-y-e-r, Dr. Fouad, F-o-u-a-d Bashour, Dr. Donald Seldin-----

Mr. SPECTER. S-el-d-i-n?

Dr. McCLELLAND. S-e-l-d-i-n--I believe that's all.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe as to President Kennedy's condition at that time?

Mr. SPECTER. "Cyanotic"---may I interrupt-just what do you mean by that in lay terms?

Dr. McCLELLAND. This mean bluish discoloration, bluish-black discoloration of the tissue. The eyes were somewhat protuberant, which is usually seen after massive head injuries denoting increased intracranial pressure, and it seemed that he perhaps was not making, at the time at least, spontaneous respiratory movements, but was receiving artificial respiration from a machine, an anesthesia machine.

Mr. SPECTER Who was operating that machine?

Dr. McCLELLAND. The machine---there was a changeover, just as I came in, one of the doctors in the room, I don't recall which one, had been operating what we call an intermittent positive pressure breathing machine.

Mr. SPECTER. Had that machine been utilized prior to your arrival?

Dr. McCLELLAND. It was in use as I arrived, yes, and about the same time I arrived----this would be one other doctor who came in the room that I forgot about----Dr. Jenkins, M. T. Jenkins, professor of anesthesiology, came into the room with a larger anesthesia machine, which is a better type machine with which to maintain control of respiration, and this was then attached to the tube in the President's tracheotom; anyway, respiratory movements were being made for him with these two machines, which were in the process of being changed when I came in.

Then, as I took my post to help with the tracheotomy, I was standing at the end of the stretcher on which the President was lying, immediately at his head, for purposes of holding a tracheotom, or a retractory in the neck line.

Dr. McCLELLAND. The neck wound, when I first arrived, was at this time converted into a tracheotomy incision. The skin incision had been made by Dr. Perry, and he told me---although I did not see that---that he had made the incision through a very small, perhaps less than one quarter inch in diameter wound in the neck.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall whether he described it any more precisely than that?

Dr. McCLELLAND. He did not at that time.

Mr. SPECTER. Has he ever described it any more precisely for you?

Dr. McCLELLAND. He has since that time.

Mr. SPECTER. And what description has he given of it since that time?

Dr. MCCLELLAND. As well as I can recall, the description that he gave was essentially as I have just described, that it was a very small injury, with clear

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cut, although somewhat irregular margins of less than a quarter inch in diameter, with minimal tissue damage surrounding it on the skin.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, was there anything left for you to observe of that bullet wound, or had the incision obliterated it?

Dr. McCLELLAND. The incision had obliterated it, essentially, the skin portion, that is.

Mr. SPECTER. Before proceeding to describe what you did in connection with the tracheostomy, will you more fully describe your observation with respect to the head wound?

Mr. SPECTER. Was he alive at the time you first saw him?

Dr. McCLELLAND. I really couldn't say, because as I mentioned in the hectic activity---I really couldn't say what his blood pressure was or what his pulse was or anything of that sort. The only thing I could say that would perhaps give evidence---this is not vital activity---at most, is that maybe he made one or two spontaneous respiratory movements but it would be difficult to say, since the machine was being used on him, whether these were true spontaneous respirations or not.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you now describe the activity and part that you performed in the treatment which followed your arrival?

Mr. SPECTER. In conducting that operation, did you observe any interior damage to the President?

Dr. McCLELLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe that for me, please?

Dr. McCLELLAND. That damage consisted mainly of a large amount of contusion and hematoma formation in the tissue lateral to the right side of the trachea and the swelling and bleeding around this site was to such extent that the trachea was somewhat deviated to the left side, not a great deal, but to a degree at least that it required partial cutting of some of the neck muscles in order to get good enough exposure to put in the tracheotomy tube, but there was a good deal of soft tissue damage anal damage to the trachea itself where apparently the missile had gone between the trachea on the right side and the strap muscles which were applied closely to it.

Mr. SPECTER. What other treatment was given to President Kennedy at the time you were performing the procedures you have just described?

Dr. McCLELLAND. To the best of my knowledge, the other treatment had consisted of the placement of cutdown sites in his extremities, namely, the making of incisions over large veins in the arms and, I believe, in the leg; however, I'm not sure about that, since I was not paying too much attention to that part of the activity, and large plastic tubes were placed into these veins for the giving of blood and fluids, and as I recall, he received a certain amount of blood, but I don't know exactly how much, since I was not actually giving the blood.

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In addition to that, of course, while we were working on the tracheotomy incision, the other physicians that I have mentioned were attaching the President rapidly to a cardiac monitor, that is to say, an electrocardiogram, for checking the presence of cardiac activity, and in addition, chest tubes were being placed in the right and left chest---both, as I recall.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall who was placing those tubes?

Dr. McCLELLAND. One of the tubes, I believe, was placed by Dr. Peters. The other one, I'm not right certain, I don't really recall---I perhaps better not say.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know about how long that took in placing those chest tubes?

Dr. McCLELLAND. As well as I am aware, the tubes were both placed in. What this involves is simply putting a trocar, a large hollow tube, and that is put into the small incision, into the anterior chest wall and slipping the tube into the chest between a group of ribs for purposes of relieving any collection of air or fluid which is present in the lungs. The reason this was done was because it was felt that there was probably quite possibly a mediastinal injury with perhaps suffusion of blood and sir into one or both pleural cavities.

Mr. SPECTER. What effect did this medical treatment have on President Kennedy?

Mr. SPECTER. Was he conscious at that time that you saw him?

Dr. McCLELLAND. No.

Mr. SPECTER. And, at what time did he expire?

Dr. McCLELLAND. He was pronounced dead at 1 p.m. on November 22.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the cause of death in your opinion?

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe anything in the nature of a wound on his body other than that which you have already described for me?

Dr. McCLELLAND. No.

Mr. SPECTER. In what position was President Kennedy maintained from the time you saw him until the pronouncement of death ?

Dr. McCLELLAND. On his back on the cart.

Mr. SPECTER. On his what?

Dr. McCLELLAND. On his back on the stretcher.

Mr. SPECTER. Was he on the stretcher at all times?

Dr. McCLELLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. In the trauma room No. 1 you described, is there any table onto which he could be placed from the stretcher?

Dr. McCLELLAND. No; generally we do not move patients from the stretcher until they are ready to go into the operating room and then they are moved onto the operating table.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, in fact, was he left on the stretcher all during the course of these procedures until he was pronounced dead?

Dr. McCLELLAND. That's right.

Mr. SPECTER. Then, at any time was he positioned in a way where you could have seen the back of his body?

Dr. McCLELLAND. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any gunshot wound on his back?

Dr. McCLELLAND. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you had discussions with the other doctors who attended President Kennedy as to the possible nature of the wound which was inflicted on him?

Dr. MCCLELLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And what facts did you have available either to you or to the

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other doctors whom you talked this over with, with respect to the nature of the wound, source of the wounds, and that sort of thing?

Dr. McCLELLAND. Immediately we had essentially no facts. We knew nothing of the number of bullets that had supposedly been fired. We knew nothing of the site from which the bullet had been fired, essentially none of the circumstances in the first few minutes, say, 20 or 30 minutes after the President was brought in, so that our initial impressions were based upon extremely incomplete information.

Mr. SPECTER. What were your initial impressions?

Mr. SPECTER. Through the use of the pronoun "we" in your last answer, to whom do you mean by "we"?

Dr. McCLELLAND. Essentially all of the doctors that have previously been mentioned here.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe the condition of the back of the President's head ?

Dr. McCLELLAND. Well, partially; not, of course, as I say, we did not lift his head up since it was so greatly damaged. We attempted to avoid moving him any more than it was absolutely necessary, but I could see, of course, all the extent of the wound.

Mr. SPECTER. You saw a large opening which you have already described?

Dr. McCLELLAND. I saw the large opening which I have described.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any other wound on the back of the head?

Dr. McCLELLAND. No.

Dr. McCLELLAND. No.

Dr. McCLELLAND. I would say it would be equally consistent with either type wound, either an entrance or an exit type wound. It would be quite difficult to say--impossible.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. McClelland, I show you now a statement or a report which has been furnished to the Commission by Parkland Hospital and has been identified in a previous Commission hearing as Commission Exhibit No. 392, and I direct your attention specifically to a page, "Third Report", which was made by you, and I would ask you first of all if this is your signature which appears at the bottom of Page 2, and next, whether in fact you did make this report

and submit it to the authorities at Parkland Hospital ?

Dr. McCLELLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And are all the facts set forth true and correct to the best of your knowledge, information and belief?

Dr. McCLELLAND. To the best of my knowledge, yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. McCLELLAND, did you and I sit down together for just a few minutes before I started to take your deposition today?

Dr. McCLELLAND Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And I discussed this matter with you?

Dr. McCLELLAND. Yes.

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Mr. SPECTER. And, during the course of our conversations at that time, we cover the same material in question form here and to which you have responded in answer form with the court reporter here today?

Dr. McCLELLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And has the information which you have given me on record been the same as that which you gave me off of the record in advance?

Dr. McCLELLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any interest, Dr. McClelland in reading your testimony over or signing it at the end, or would you be willing to waive such signature of the testimony?

Dr. McCLELLAND. I would be willing to waive my signature.

Mr. SPECTER. Thank you so much for coming and giving us your deposition today.

Dr. McCLELLAND. All right, thank you.

TESTIMONY OF DR. ROBERT M. McCLELLAND RESUMED

The testimony of Dr. Robert M. McCLELLAND was taken at 3:25 p.m., March 25, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that Dr. Robert M. McClelland has return to have a brief additional deposition concerning a translation of "L' Express which has been called to my attention in the intervening time which has elapsed between March 21, when I took Dr. McClelland's deposition on the first occasion, and today.

Dr. McCLELLAND, will you raise your right hand? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you will give to the President's Commission in this deposition proceeding will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?

Dr. McCLELLAND. I do.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. McClelland, I show you a translation from the French, of the magazine, "L' Express" issue of February 20, 1964, and ask you if you would read this item, with particular emphasis on a reference to a quotation or statement made by you to a reporter from the St, Louis Post Dispatch.

Dr. McCLELLAND. (Examined instrument referred to.)

Mr. SPECTER, Now, have you had an opportunity to read over that excerpt?

Dr. McCLELLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you talk to a reporter from the St. Louis Post Dispatch about this matter ?

Dr. McCLELLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And what was his name?

Dr. MCCLELLAND. Richard Dudman.

Mr. SPECTER. And when did you have that conversation with Mr. Dudman

Dr. McCLELLAND. As well as I recall, it was the day after the assassination, as nearly as I can recall, but I'm not certain about that.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you tell me as closely as you remember what he said to you and you said to him, please?

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Mr. SPECTER. Now, had you actually observed the wound prior to the time the tracheotomy was performed on that neck wound?

Dr. Perry looked up briefly and said that they had made an incision and were in the process of making an incision in the neck, which extended through the middle of the wound in question in the front of the neck.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, you have just characterized it in that last answer as an entrance wound.

Dr. McCLELLAND. Well, perhaps I shouldn't say the wound anyway, not the entrance wound--that might be a slip of the tongue.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have a firm opinion at this time as to whether it is an entrance wound or exit wound or whatever?

Dr. McCLELLAND. Of course, my opinion now would be colored by everything that I've heard about it and seen since, but I'll say this, if I were simply looking at the wound again and had seen the wound in its unchanged state, and which I did not, and, of course, as I say, it had already been opened up by the tracheotomy incision when I saw the wound--but if I saw the wound in its state in which Dr. Perry described it to me, I would probably initially think this were an entrance wound, knowing nothing about the circumstances as I did at the time, but I really couldn't say--that's the whole point. This would merely be a calculated guess, and that's all, not knowing anything more than just seeing the wound itself.

Mr. SPECTER. But did you, in fact, see the wound prior to the time the incision was made?

Dr. McCLELLAND. No.

Mr. SPECTER. So that any preliminary thought you had even, would be based upon what you had been told by Dr. Perry?

Dr. McCLELLAND. That's right.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, did you tell Mr. Dudman of the St. Louis Post Dispatch that you did not in fact see the wound in the neck, but your only information of it came from what Dr. Perry had told you?

Dr. McCLELLAND. I don't recall whether I told him that or not. I really don't remember whether I said I had seen the wound myself or whether I was merely referring to our sort of collective opinion of it, or whether I told him I had not seen the wound and was merely going by Dr. Perry's report of it to me. I don't recall now, this far away in time exactly what I said to him.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. McClelland, I want to ask you a few additional questions, and some of these questions may duplicate questions which I asked you last Saturday, and the reason for that is, we have not yet had a chance to transcribe the deposition of last Saturday, so I do not have before me the questions I asked you at that time and the answers you gave, and since last Saturday I have taken the depositions of many, many doctors on the same topics, so it is not possible for me to be absolutely certain of the specific questions which I asked you at that time, but permit me to ask you one or several more questions on the subject.

First, how many bullets do you think were involved in inflicting the wounds on President Kennedy which you observed?

Dr. McCLELLAND. At the present time, you mean, or at the immediate moment?

Mr. SPECTER. Well, take the immediate moment and then the present time.

This would have been a very circuitous route for the bullet to have made, so that when .we did find later on what the circumstances were surrounding the

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assassination, this was much more readily explainable to ourselves that the two wounds were made by two separate bullets.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is your view or opinion today as to how many bullets inflicted the injuries of President Kennedy?

Dr. McCLELLAND. Two.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, what would be the reason for your changing your opinion in that respect?

Dr. MCCLELLAND. Oh, just simply the later reports that we heard from all sources, of all the circumstances surrounding the assassination. Certainly no further first-hand information came to me and made me change my mind in that regard.

Dr. McCLELLAND. Yes; I think so.

Mr. SPECTER. And what would your reasoning be for thinking that that would be a possible hole of exit on those factors as I have outlined them to you?

Dr. McCLELLAND. Well, I think my reasoning would be basically that the missile was traveling mainly through soft tissue, rather than exploding from a bony chamber and that by the time it reached the neck that it had already lost, because of the distance from which it was fired, even though the muzzle velocity was as you stated--would have already lost a good deal of it's initial velocity and kinetic strength and therefore would have perhaps made, particularly, if it were a fragment of the bullet as bullets do sometimes fragment, could have made a small hole like this in exiting. It certainly could have done that.

Mr. SPECTER. What would have happened then to the other portion of the bullet if it had fragmented?

Dr. McCLELLAND. It might have been left along, or portions of it along the missile track--sometimes will be left scattered up and down this. Other fragments will maybe scatter in the wound and sometimes there will be multiple fragments and sometimes maybe only a small fragment out of the main bullet, sometimes a bullet will split in half--this is extremely difficult for me to say just what would happen in a case lake that.

Dr. McCLELLAND. I think even then you could make the statement that this wound could have resulted from this type bullet fired through this particular mass of soft tissue, losing that much velocity before it exited from the body. Where you would expect to see this really great hole that is left behind would be, for instance, from a very high velocity missile fired at close range with a heavy caliber bullet, such as a .45 pistol fired at close range, which would make a small entrance hole, relatively, and particularly if it entered some portion of the anatomy such as the head, where there was a sudden change in density from the brain to the skull cavity, as it entered. As it left the body, it would still have a great deal of force behind it and would blow up a large segment of tissue as it exited. But I don't think the bullet of this nature fired from that distance and going through this large area of homogenous soft tissue would necessarily

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make the usual kind of exit wound like I just described, with a close range high velocity heavy caliber bullet.

This is why it would be difficult to say with certainty as has been implied in some newspaper articles that quoted me, that you could tell for sure that this was an entrance or an exit wound. I think this was blown up a good deal.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. McClelland, why wasn't the President's body turned over?

Dr. McCLELLAND. The President's body was not turned over because the initial things that were done as in all such cases of extreme emergency are to first establish an airway and second, to stop hemorrhage and replace blood, so that these were the initial things that were carried out immediately without taking time to do a very thorough physical examination, which of course would have required that these other emergency measures not be done immediately.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you make any examination of the President's back at all?

Dr. McCLELLAND. No.

Mr. SPECTER Was any examination of the President's back made to your knowledge?

Dr. MCCLELLAND. Not here no.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add which you think might be helpful in any way to the Commission?

Dr. MCCLELLAND. No; I think not except again to emphasize perhaps that some of our statements to the press about the nature of the wound may have been misleading, possibly--probably ,because of our fault in tolling it in such a way that they misinterpreted our certainty of being able to tell entrance from exit wounds, which as we say, we generally can make an educated guess about these things but cannot be certain about them. I think they attributed too much certainty to us about that.

Mr. SPECTER Now, have you talked to anyone from the Federal Government about this matter since I took your deposition last Saturday?

Dr. McCLELLAND. No.

Mr. SPECTER. And did you and I chat for a moment or two with my showing you this translation of "L' Express" prior to the time we went on the record here ?

Dr. McCLELLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And is the information which you gave to me in response to my questions the same that we put on the record here?

Dr. McCLELLAND. To the best of my knowledge---yes

Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much, Dr. McClelland.

Dr. McCLELLAND. All right. Thank you

Dr. Charles Rufus Baxter

Page 39

TESTIMONY OF DR. CHARLES RUFUS BAXTER

Dr. SHAW Volume IV

TESTIMONY OF DR. ROBERT ROEDER SHAW

Senator COOPER. The Commission will come to order.

Dr. Shaw, you understand that the purpose of this inquiry is taken under the order of the President appointing the Commission on the assassination of President Kennedy to investigate all the facts relating to his assassination.

Dr. SHAW. I do.

Senator COOPER. And report to the public.

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Dr. SHAW. I do.

Senator COOPER. Do you desire an attorney to be with you?

Dr. SHAW. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you state your full name for the record, please?

Dr. SHAW. Robert Roeder Shaw.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your profession, please?

Dr. SHAW. Physician and surgeon.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you outline briefly your educational background?

Dr. SHAW. I received my B.A. degree from the University of Michigan in 1927, and my M.D. degree from the same institution in 1933.

Following that I served 2 years at the Roosevelt Hospital in New York City from July 1934, to July 1936, in training in general surgery. I had then 2 years of training in thoracic surgery at the University Hospital, Ann Arbor, Mich., from July 1936 to July 1933.

On August 1, 1938, I entered private practice limiting my practice to thoracic surgery in Dallas, Tex.

Mr. DULLES. What kind of surgery?

Dr. SHAW. Thoracic surgery or surgery of the chest,

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I have practiced there continuously except for a period from June 1942, until December 1945, when I was a member of the Medical Corps of the Army of the United States serving principally in the European theater of operations.

I was away again from December 1961, until June of 1963, when I was head of the MEDICO team and performed surgery at Avicenna Hospital in Kabul, Pakistan.

Mr. DULLES. Will you tell us a little bit about MEDICO. Is that the ship?

Dr. SHAW. No; that is HOPE. MEDICO was formed by the late Dr. Tom Dooley.

Mr. DULLES. Yes; I know him very well. He was the man in Laos.

Dr. SHAW. Yes, sir; this was one of their projects.

Mr. DULLES. I see.

Dr. SHAW. I returned to----

Mr. DULLES. An interesting project.

Dr. SHAW. I returned to Dallas and on September 1, 1963, started working full time with the University of Texas Southwestern Medical School as professor of thoracic surgery and chairman of the division of thoracic surgery.

In this position I also am chief of thoracic surgery at Parkland Memorial Hospital in Dallas which is the chief hospital from the standpoint of the medical facilities of the school.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you licensed to practice medicine in the State of Texas?

Dr. SHAW. I am.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you certified?

Dr. SHAW. By the board of thoracic surgery you mean?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes; by the board of thoracic surgery.

Dr. SHAW. Yes; as of 1948.

Mr. SPECTER. What experience, if any, have you had, Dr. Shaw, with bullet wounds?

Dr. SHAW. I have had civilian experience, both in the work at Parkland Hospital, where we see a great amount of trauma, and much of this involves bullet wounds from homicidal attempts and accidents.

The chief experience I had, however, was during the Second World War when I was serving as chief of the thoracic surgery center in Paris, France. And during this particular experience we admitted over 900 patients with chest wounds of various sort, many of them, of course, being shell fragments rather than bullet wounds.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate as to the total number of bullet wounds you have had experience with?

Dr. SHAW. It would be approximately 1,000, considering the large number of admissions we had in Paris.

Mr. SPECTER What were your duties in a general way on November 22, 1963.

Dr. SHAW. On that particular date I had been at a conference at Woodlawn Hospital, which is our hospital for medical chest diseases connected with the medical school system. I had just gone to the Children's Hospital to see a small patient that I had done a bronchoscopy on a few days before and was returning to Parkland Hospital, and the medical school.

Woodlawn and the Children's Hospital are approximately a mile away from Parkland Hospital.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you called upon to render any aid to President Kennedy on November 22?

Dr. SHAW. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you called upon to render medical aid to Gov. John B. Connally on that day?

Dr. SHAW. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe briefly the circumstances surrounding your being called into the case.

Dr. SHAW. As I was driving toward the medical school I came to an intersection of Harry Hines Boulevard and Industrial Boulevard.

There is also a railroad crossing at this particular point. I saw an open limousine pass this point at high speed with a police escort. We were held up in traffic because of this escort Finally, when we were allowed to proceed,

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I went on to the medical school expecting to eat lunch. I had the radio on because it was the day that I knew the President was in Dallas and would be eating lunch at the Trade Mart which was not far away, and over the radio I heard the report that the President had been shot at while riding in the motorcade. I went on to the medical school and as I entered the medical school a student came in and joined three other students, and said the President has just been brought into the emergency room at Parkland, dead on arrival.

The students said, "You are kidding, aren't you?" and he said, "No, I am not. I saw him, and Governor Connally has-been shot through the chest."

Hearing that I turned and walked over to the emergency room, which is approximately 150 yards from. the medical school, and entered the emergency room.

Mr. SPECTER. At approximately what time did you arrive at the emergency room where Governor Connally was situated?

Dr. SHAW. As near as I could tell it was about 12:45.

Mr. SPECTER. Who was with Governor Connally, if anyone, at that time, Dr. Shaw?

Dr. SHAW. I immediately recognized two of the men who worked with me in thoracic surgery, Dr. James Duke and Dr. James Boland, Dr. Giesecke, who is an anesthesiologist, was also there along with a Dr. David Mebane who is an instructor in general surgery.

Mr. SPECTER. What was Governor Connally's condition at that time, based on your observations?

Dr. SHAW. The Governor was complaining bitterly of difficulty in breathing, and of pain in his right chest. Prior to my arriving there, the men had very properly placed a tight occlusive dressing over what on later examination proved to be a large sucking wound in the front of his right chest, and they had inserted a rubber tube between the second and third ribs in the front of the right chest, carrying this tube to what we call a water seal bottle.

Mr. SPECTER What was the purpose?

Dr. SHAW. Yes; this is done to reexpand the right lung which had collapsed due to the opening through the chest wall.

Mr. SPECTER. What wounds, if any, did you observe on the Governor at that time?

Dr. SHAW. I observed no wounds on the Governor at this time. It wasn't until he was taken to the operating room that I properly examined him from the standpoint of the wound.

Mr. SPECTER. How long after your initial viewing of him was he taken to the operating room?

Dr. SHAW. Within about 5 minutes. I stepped outside to talk to Mrs. Con-natty because I had been given information by Dr. Duke that blood had been drawn from the Governor, sent to the laboratory for cross-matching for blood that we knew would be necessary, that the operating room had already been alerted, and that they were ready and they were merely awaiting my arrival.

Mr. SPECTER. How was Governor Connally transported from the emergency room to the operating room?

Dr. SHAW. On a stretcher.

Mr. SPECTER. And was he transported up an elevator as well?

Dr. SHAW. Yes. It is two floors above the emergency rooms.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe what happened next in connection with Governor Connally's----

Mr. DULLES. Could I ask a question, putting in this tube is prior to making an incision?

Dr. SHAW. Yes; a stab wound.

Mr. DULLES. Just a stab wound?

Dr. SHAW. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. What treatment next followed for Governor Connally, Doctor?

Dr. SHAW. He was taken to the operating room and there Dr. Giesecke started the anesthesia. This entails giving an intravenous injection of sodium pentothal and then after the Governor was asleep a gas was used, that will be on the anesthetic record there.

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Mr. SPECTER. Do you know at approximately what time this procedure was started?

Dr. SHAW. I will have to refresh my memory again from the record. We had at the time I testified before, we had the

Mr. SPECTER. Permit me to make available to you a copy of the Parkland Memorial Hospital operative record and let me ask you, first of all, if you can identify these two pages on an exhibit heretofore marked as Commission Exhibit 392 as to whether or not this constitutes your report?

Dr. SHAW. Yes; this is a transcription of my dictated report of the operation.

Mr. SPECTER. Are the facts set forth therein true and correct?

Dr. SHAW. Yes. On this it states that the operation itself was begun at 1300 hours or 1 o'clock, 1 p.m., and that the actual surgery started at 1335 or 1:35 p.m.

The operation was concluded by me at 3--1520 which would be 3:20 p.m.

Mr. SPECTER. You have described, in a general way, the chest wound. What other wounds, if any, was Governor Connally suffering from at the time you saw him?

Dr. SHAW. I will describe then the wound of the wrist which was obvious. He had a wound of the lower right forearm that I did not accurately examine because I had already talked to Dr. Gregory while I was scrubbing for the operation, told him that this wound would need his attention as soon as we were able to get the chest in a satisfactory condition. There was also, I was told, I didn't see the wound, on the thigh, I was told that there was a small wound on the thigh which I saw later.

Mr. SPECTER. When did you first have an opportunity then to examine Governor Connally's wound on the posterior aspect of his chest?

Dr. SHAW. After the Governor had been anesthetized. As soon as he was asleep so we could manipulate him--before that time it was necessary for an endotracheal tube to be in place so his respirations could be controlled before we felt we could roll him over and accurately examine the wound entrance. We knew this was the wound exit.

Mr. SPECTER. This [indicating an area below the right nipple on the body]?

Dr. SHAW. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. How did you know it was a wound exit.

Dr. SHAW. By the fact of its size, the ragged edges of the wound. This wound was covered by a dressing which could not be removed until the Governor was anesthetized.

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating this wound, the wound on the Governor's chest?

Dr. SHAW. Yes; the front part.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe in as much detail as you can the wound on the posterior side of the Governor's chest?

Dr. SHAW. This was a small wound approximately a centimeter and a half in its greatest diameter. It was roughly elliptical. It was just medial to the axilliary fold or the crease of the armpit, but we could tell that this wound, the depth of the wound, had not penetrated the shoulder blade.

Mr. SPECTER. What were the characteristics, if any, which indicated to you that it was a wound of entrance then?

Dr. SHAW. Its small size, and the rather clean cut edges of the wound as compared to the usual more ragged wound of exit.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, I hand you a diagram which is a body diagram on Commission Exhibit No. 679, and ask you if, on the back portion of the figure, that accurately depicts the point of entry into Governor Connally's back?

Dr. SHAW. Yes. The depiction of the point of entry, I feel is quite accurate.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, with respect to the front side of the body, is the point of exit accurately shown on the diagram?

Dr. SHAW. The point is----

Mr. SPECTER. We have heretofore, may the record show the deposition covered much the same ground with Dr. Shaw, but the diagrams used now are new diagrams which will have to be remarked in accordance with your recollection.

Dr. SHAW. Yes. Because I would have to place they are showing here the angle.

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Mr. DULLES. Is this all on the record?

Mr. SPECTER. It should be.

Dr. SHAW. We are showing on this angle, the cartilage angle which it makes at the end of the sternum.

Mr. SPECTER. That is an inverted V which appears in front of the body?

Dr. SHAW. Now the wound was above that. They have shown it below that point so the wound would have to be placed here as far as the point is concerned.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you draw on that diagram a more accurate depiction of where the wound of exit occurred?

Dr. SHAW. Do you want me to initial this?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes; if you please, Dr. Shaw.

I hand you another body diagram marked Commission Exhibit 680 and I will ask you if that accurately depicts the angle of decline as the bullet passed through Governor Connally?

Dr. SHAW. I think the declination of this line is a little too sharply downward. I would place it about 5° off that line.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you redraw the line then, Dr. Shaw, and initial it, indicating the more accurate angle?

Dr. SHAW. The reason I state this is that as they have shown this, it would place the wound of exit a little too far below the nipple. Also it would, since the bullet followed the line of declination of the fifth rib, it would make the ribs placed in a too slanting position.

Mr. SPECTER. What operative procedures did you employ in caring for the wound of the chest, Dr. Shaw.

Dr. SHAW. The first measure was to excise the edges of the wound of exit in an elliptical fashion, and then this incision was carried in a curved incision along the lateral portion of the right chest up toward the right axilla in order to place the skin incision lower than the actual path of the bullet through the chest wall.

After this incision had been carried down to the level of the muscles attached to the rib cage, all of the damaged muscle which was chiefly the serratus anterior muscle which digitates along the fifth rib at this position, was cleaned away, cut away with sharp dissection.

As soon as--of course, this incision had been made, the opening through the parietal pleura, which is the lining of the inside of the chest was very obvious. It was necessary to trim away several small fragments of the rib which were still hanging to tags of periosteum, the lining of the rib, and the ragged ends of the rib were smoothed off with a rongeur.

Mr. SPECTER. What damage had been inflicted upon a rib, if any, Dr. Shaw?

Mr. SPECTER. What is the texture of the rib at the point where the missile struck?

Dr. SHAW. The texture of the rib here is not of great density. The cortex of the rib in the lateral portions of our ribs, is thin with the so-called cancellus portion of the rib being very spongy, offering very little resistance to pressure or to fracturing.

Mr. SPECTER. What effect, if any, would the striking of that rib have had to the trajectory of the bullet?

Dr. SHAW. It could have had a slight, caused a slight deflection of the rib, but probably not a great deflection of the rib, because of the angle at which it struck and also because of the texture of the rib at this time.

Mr. SPECTER. You say deflection of the rib or deflection of the bullet?

Dr. SHAW. Deflection of the bullet, I am sorry.

Mr. SPECTER. Was any metallic substance from the bullet left in the thoracic cage as a result of the passage of the bullet through the Governor's body?

Dr. SHAW. No. We saw no evidence of any metallic material in the X-ray that we had of the chest, and we found none during the operation.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you brought the X-rays with you, Dr. Shaw, from Parkland Hospital?

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Dr. SHAW. Yes; we have them here.

Mr. SPECTER. May the record show we have available a viewer for the X-rays.

Dr. Shaw, would you, by use of the viewer, exhibit the X-rays of the Governor's chest to show more graphically that which you have heretofore described?

Dr. SHAW. This is the first X-ray that was taken, which was taken in the operating room with the Governor on the operating table, and at this time anesthetized. The safety pin that you see here is used, was used, to secure the tube which had been put between the second and third rib in expanding the Governor's lung.

We can dimly see also the latex rubber tube up in the chest coming to the apex of the chest.

The variations that we see from normal here are the fact that first, there is a great amount of swelling in the chest wall which we know was due to bleeding and bruising of the tissues of the chest wall, and we also see that there is air in the tissues of the chest wall here and here. It is rather obvious.

Mr. SPECTER. When you say here and here, you are referring to the outer portions, showing on the X-ray moving up toward the shoulder area?

Dr. SHAW. Yes; going from the lower chest up to the region near the angle of the shoulder blade.

The honey framework of the chest, it is obvious that the fifth rib, we count ribs from above downward, this is the first rib, second rib, third rib, fourth rib, fifth rib, that a portion of this rib has been shattered, and we can see a few fragments that have been left behind.

Also the rib has because of being broken and losing some of its substance, has taken a rather inward position in relation to the fourth and the sixth ribs on either side.

Mr. SPECTER. What effect was there, if any, on the upper portion of that rib?

Dr. SHAW. This was not noticed at the time of this examination, Mr. Specter. However, in subsequent examinations we can tell that there was a fracture across the rib at this point due to the rib being struck and bent.

Mr. SPECTER. When you say this point, will you describe where that point exists on the X-ray?

Dr. SHAW. This is a point approximately 4 centimeters from its connection with the transverse process of the spine.

Mr. SPECTER. And is the fracture, which is located there, caused by a striking there or by the striking at the end of the rib?

Dr. SHAW. It is caused by the striking at the end of the rib.

Mr. SPECTER. Fine. What else then is discernible from the viewing of the X-ray, Dr. Shaw?

Dr. SHAW. There is a great amount of, we would say, obscuration of the lower part of the right lung field which we know from subsequent examination was due to blood in the pleural cavity and also due to a hematoma in the lower part of the right lower lobe and also a severe laceration of the middle lobe with it having lost its ability to ventilate at that time. So, we have both an airless lung, and blood in the lung to account for these shadows.

Mr. SPECTER. Is there anything else visible from the X-ray which is helpful in our understanding of the Governor's condition?

Dr. SHAW. No; I don't think so.

Mr. SPECTER. Would it be useful--As to that X-ray, Dr. Shaw, will you tell us what identifying data, if any, it has in the records of Parkland Hospital, for the record?

Dr. SHAW. On this X-ray it has in pencil John G. Connally.

Mr. SPECTER. Is that G or C?

Dr. SHAW. They have a "G" November 22, 1963, and it has a number 218-922.

Mr. SPECTER. Were those X-rays taken under your supervision?

Dr. SHAW. Yes, by a technician.

Mr. SPECTER. And that is, in fact, the X-ray then which was taken of Governor Connally at the time these procedures were being performed?

Dr. SHAW. It is.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw, would any of the other X-rays be helpful in our understanding of the Governor's condition?

Dr. SHAW. I believe the only--perhaps showing one additional X-ray would

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show the fracture previously described which was not easily discernible on the first film. This is quite often true but not important to the here is the fracture that can be easily seen.

Mr. SPECTER. You are now referring to a separate and second X-ray.

Dr. SHAW. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you start out by telling us on what date this X-ray was performed.

Dr. SHAW. This X-ray was made on the 29th of November 1963. 7 days following the incident.

Mr. SPECTER. What does it show of significance?

Dr. SHAW. It shows that there has been considerable clearing in the lower portion of the lung, and also that there is a fracture of the fifth rib as previously described approximately 4 centimeters from the transverse process posteriorly.

Mr. SPECTER. Is there anything else depicted by that X-ray of material assistance in evaluating the Governor's wound?

Dr. SHAW. No.

Mr. McCLOY. Were there any photographs taken as distinguished from X-rays of the body?

Dr. SHAW. There were no photographs.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw, we shall then, subject to the approval of the Commission, for the record, have the X-rays reproduced at Parkland Memorial Hospital, and, if possible, also have a photograph of the X-ray made for the permanent records of the Commission to show the actual X-ray, which Dr. Shaw has described during his testimony here this afternoon.

Senator COOPER. It is directed that it be made a part of the record of these hearings.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw, what additional operative procedures did you perform on Governor Connally's chest?

Dr. SHAW. I will continue with my description of the operative procedure. The opening that had been made through the rib after the removal of the fragments was adequate for further exploration of the pleural cavity. A self-retaining retractor was put into place to maintain exposure. Inside the pleural cavity there were approximately 200 cc. of clotted blood.

It was found that the middle lobe had been lacerated with the laceration dividing the lobe into roughly two equal parts. The laceration ran from the lower tip of the middle lobe up into its root or hilum.

However, the lobe was not otherwise damaged, so that it could he repaired using a running suture of triple zero chromic catgut.

The anterior basal segments of the right lower lobe had a large hematoma, and blood was oozing out of one small laceration that was a little less than a centimeter in length, where a rib fragment had undoubtedly been driven into the lobe. To control hemorrhage a single suture of triple zero chromic gut was placed in this laceration. There were several small matchstick size fragments of rib within the pleural cavity. Examination, however, of the pericardium of the diaphragm and the upper lobe revealed no injury to these parts of the chest.

A drain was placed in the eighth space in the posterior axillary line similar to the drain which had been placed in the second interspace in the front of the chest.

The drain in the front of the chest was thought to be a little too long so about 3 centimeters of it were cut away.

Attention was then turned on the laceration of the latissimus dorsi muscle where the missile had passed through it. Several sutures of chromic gut where used to repair this muscle.

The incision was then closed with interrupted No. zero chromic gut in the muscles of the chest wall--first, I am sorry, in the intercostale muscle, and muscles of the chest wall, and the same suture material was used to close the serratus anterior muscle in the subcutaneous tissue, and interrupted vertical sutures of black silk were used to close the skin.

Attention was then turned to the wound of entrance which, as previously described, was about a centimeter and a half in its greatest diameter, roughly

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elliptical in shape. The skin edges of this wound were incised excised, I beg your pardon--I have to go back just a little bit.

Prior to examination of this wound, a stab wound was made at the angle of the scapula to place a drain in the subscapular space. In the examination of the wound of entrance, the examining finger could determine that this drain was immediately under the wound of entrance, so that it was adequately draining the space.

Two sutures were placed in the facia of the muscle, and the skin was closed with interrupted vertical matching sutures of black silk.

That concluded the operation. Both tubes were connected to a water seal bottle, and the dressing was applied.

Mr. SPECTER. Who was in charge then of the subsequent care on the Governor's wrist?

Dr. SHAW. Dr. Charles Gregory who had been previously alerted and then came in to take care of the wrist.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, with respect to the wound on the wrist, did you have any opportunity to examine it by way of determining points of entry and exit?

Dr. SHAW. My examination of the wrist was a very cursory one. I could tell that there was a compound comminuted fracture because there was motion present, and there was a ragged wound just over the radius above the wrist joint. But that was the extent of my examination of the wrist.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw, did I take your deposition at Parkland Memorial Hospital on March 23 of 1964?

Dr. SHAW. Yes; you did.

Mr. SPECTER. Has that deposition been made available to you?

Dr. SHAW. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. To you here this afternoon?

Dr. SHAW. Yes.

Dr. SHAW. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, based on all facts now within your knowledge, is there any modification which you would care to make in terms of the views which you expressed about entrance and exit wounds back on March 23, based on the information which was available to you at that time?

Dr. SHAW. From an examination of the clothing, it is very obvious that the wound of entrance was through the coat sleeve.

Mr. SPECTER. While you are testifying in that manner, perhaps it would be helpful if we would make available to you the actual Jacket, if it pleases the Commission.

We shall reserve Exhibits Nos. 681 for the X-ray of November 22; 682 for the X-ray of November 29; and we shall now mark a photograph of the coat for our permanent records as "Commission Exhibit No. 683".

Dr. Shaw, I hand you at this time what purports to be the coat worn by Governor Connally, which we introduce subject to later proof when Governor Connally appears later this afternoon; and, for the record, I ask you first of all if this photograph, designated as Commission Exhibit No. 683, is a picture of this suit coat?

Dr. SHAW. It is.

Mr. SPECTER. I had interrupted you when you started to refer to the hole in the sleeve of the coat. Will you proceed with what you were testifying about there?

Dr. SHAW. The hole in the sleeve of the coat is within hall a centimeter of the very edge of the sleeve, and lies----

Mr. DULLES. This is the right sleeve, is it not?

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but on the lateral position or the upper position, as the wrist is held in a neutral position.

Mr. SPECTER. With the additional information provided by the coat, would that enable you to give an opinion as to which was the wound of entrance and which the wound of exit on the Governor's wrist?

Dr. SHAW. There is only one tear in the Governor's garment as far as the appearance of the tear is concerned, I don't think I could render an opinion as to whether this is a wound of entrance or exit.

Mr. SPECTER. Then, do you have sufficient information at your disposal in total, based on your observations and what you know now to give any meaningful opinion as to which was the wound of entrance and which the wound of exit on the Governor's wrist?

Dr. SHAW. I would prefer to have Dr. Gregory testify about that, because he has examined it more carefully than I have.

Mr. SPECTER. Fine.

Mr. DULLES. Could you tell at all how the arm was held from that mark or that hole in the sleeve?

Dr. SHAW. Mr. Dulles, I thought I knew Just how the Governor was wounded until I saw the pictures today, and it becomes a little bit harder to explain.

I felt that the wound had been caused by the same bullet that came out through the chest with the Governor's arm held in approximately this position.

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating the right hand held close to the body?

Dr. SHAW. Yes, and this is still a possibility. But I don't feel that it is the only possibility.

Dr. SHAW. This is again the testimony that I believe Dr. Gregory will be giving, too. It is a matter of whether the wrist wound could be caused by the same bullet, and we felt that it could but we had not seen the bullets until today, and we still do not know which bullet actually inflicted the wound on Governor Connally.

Mr. DULLES. Or whether it was one or two wounds?

Dr. SHAW. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. Or two bullets?

Dr. SHAW. Yes; or three.

Mr. DULLES. Why do you say three?

Dr. SHAW. He has three separate wounds. He has a wound in the chest, a wound of the wrist, a wound of the thigh.

Mr. DULLES. Oh, yes; we haven't. come to the wound of the thigh yet, have we?

Mr. McCLOY. You have no firm opinion that all these three wounds were caused by one bullet?

Dr. SHAW. I have no firm opinion.

Mr. McCLOY. That is right.

Dr. SHAW. Asking me this now if it was true. If you had asked me a month ago I would have.

Mr. DULLES. Could they have been caused by one bullet, in your opinion?

Dr. SHAW. They could.

Mr. McCLOY. I gather that what the witness is saying is that it is possible that. they might have been caused by one bullet. But that he has no firm opinion now that they were.

Mr. DULLES. As I understand it too. Is our understanding correct?

Dr. SHAW. That is correct.

Senator COOPER. When you say all three are you referring to the wounds you have just described to the chest, the wound in the wrist, and also the wound in the thigh?

Dr. SHAW. Yes.

Senator COOPER. It was possible?

Dr. SHAW. Our original assumption, Senator Cooper, was that the Governor was approximately in this attitude at the time he was----

Senator COOPER. What attitude is that now?

Dr. SHAW. This is an attitude sitting in a jump seat as we know he was,

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upright, with his right forearm held across the lower portion of the chest. In this position, the trajectory of the bullet could have caused the wound of entrance, the wound of exit, struck his wrist and proceeded on into the left thigh. But although this is a possibility, I can't give a firm opinion that this is the actual way in which it occurred.

Mr. SPECTER. If it pleases the Commission, we propose to go through that in this testimony; and we have already started to mark other exhibits in sequence on the clothing. So that it will be more systematic, we plan to proceed with the identification of clothing and then go on to the composite diagram which explains the first hypothesis of Dr. Shaw and the other doctors of Park- land. And then proceed from that, as I intend to do, with an examination of the bullet, which will explore the thinking of the doctor on that subject.

Dr. Shaw, for our record, I will hand you Commission Exhibit No. 684 and ask you if that is a picture of the reverse side of the coat, which we will later prove to have been worn by Governor Connally, the coat which is before you?

Dr. SHAW. It is.

Mr. SPECTER. What, if anything, appears on the back of that coat and also on the picture in line with the wound which you have described on the Governor's posterior chest?

Dr. SHAW. The picture the coat and the picture of the coat, show a rent in the back of the coat approximately 2- centimeters medial to the point where the sleeve has been joined to the main portion of the garment.

The lighter-colored material of the lining of the coat can be seen through this rent in the coat.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw, I show you a shirt, subject to later proof that it was the shirt worn by Governor Connally, together with a photograph marked "Commission Exhibit No. 685," and ask you if that is a picture of that shirt, the back side of the shirt?

Dr. SHAW. Yes; it is a picture of the back side of the shirt. However, in this particular picture I am not able to make out the hole in the shirt very well.

Now I see it, I believe; yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe the hole as you see it to exist in the shirt? Aside from what you see on the picture, what hole do you observe on the back of the shirt itself?

Dr. SHAW. On the back of the shirt itself there is a hole, a punched out area of the shirt which is a little more than a centimeter in its greater diameter. The whole shirt is soiled by brown stains which could have been due to blood.

Mr. SPECTER. How does the hole in the back of the shirt correspond with the wound on the Governor's back?

Dr. SHAW. It does correspond exactly.

Mr. SPECTER. Now turning the same shirt over to the front side, I ask you if the photograph, marked "Commission Exhibit No. 386," is a picture of the front side of this shirt?

Dr. SHAW. It is.

Mr. SPECTER. What does the picture of the shirt show with respect to a hole, if any, on the right side of the front of the shirt?

Dr. SHAW. The picture and the shirt show on the right side a much larger rent in the garment with the rent being approximately 4 centimeters in its largest diameter.

Mr. SPECTER. What wound, if any, did the Governor sustain on his thigh, Dr. Shaw?

Mr. DULLES. Just one moment, are you leaving this?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. I wonder whether or not it would not be desirable for the doctor to put on this photograph where these holes are, because they are not at all clear for the future if we want to study those photographs.

Dr. SHAW. This one is not so hard.

Mr. DULLES. That one appears but the other one doesn't appear and I think it would be very helpful.

Dr. SHAW. How would you like to have me outline this?

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Mr. SPECTER. Draw a red circle of what you conceive to be the hole there, Doctor.

Mr. DULLES. The actual hole is not nearly as big as your circle, it is the darkened area inside that circle, is it not?

Dr. SHAW. Yes; the darkened area is enclosed by the circle.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you able to note on the photograph of the back of the shirt, 685?

Will you draw a red circle around the area of the hole on the photograph then, Dr. Shaw?

Mr. DULLES. Would you just initial those two circles, if you can.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw, what wounds, if any, did the Governor sustain on his left thigh?

Dr. SHAW. He sustained a small puncture-type wound on the medial aspect of the left thigh.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have an opportunity to examine that closely?

Dr. SHAW. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have an opportunity to examine it sufficiently to ascertain its location on the left thigh?

Dr. SHAW. No; I didn't examine it that closely, except for its general location.

Mr. SPECTER. Where was it with respect to a general location then on the Governor's thigh?

Dr. SHAW. It is on the medial anterior aspect of the thigh.

Mr. DULLES. Nontechnically, what does it mean?

Dr. SHAW. Well, above, slightly above, between, in other words, the medial aspect would be the aspect toward the middle of the body, but as far as being how many centimeters or inches it is from the knee and the groin, I am not absolutely sure.

Mr. SPECTER. I now show you a pair of trousers which we shall later identify as being those worn by the Governor. I will, first of all, ask you if a photograph bearing Commission Exhibit No. 687 is a picture of those trousers?

Dr. SHAW. It is.

Mr. SPECTER. And what hole, if any did you observe on the trousers and on the picture of the trousers?

Dr. SHAW. There is a hole in the garment that has been made by some instrument which has carried away a part of the Governor's garment. In other words, it is not a tear but is a punched out hole, and this is approximately 4 centimeters on the inner aspect from the crease of the trousers.

Mr. DULLES. Can you tell where the knee is there and how far above the knee approximately?

Dr. SHAW. I can't tell exactly.

Mr. DULLES. I guess you can't tell.

Dr. SHAW. From the crotch I would say it would be slightly, it is a little hard to tell, slightly more toward the knee than the groin.

Mr. SPECTER. Does that hole in the left leg of the trousers match up to the wound on the left thigh of the Governor?

Dr. SHAW. To the best of my recollection it does.

Mr. DULLES. Are there any other perforations in these trousers at all, any other holes?

Dr. SHAW. No.

Mr. DULLES. So that means that whatever made the hole on the front side did not come through and make a hole anywhere else in the trousers?

Dr. SHAW. That is correct. It had to be a penetrating wound and not a perforating wound, it didn't go on through.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you turn those trousers over, Dr. Shaw?

Dr. SHAW. I believe we had already looked at it.

Mr. SPECTER. On the reverse side, and state whether or not this picture bearing Commission Exhibit No. 688 accurately depicts the reverse side of the trousers?

Dr. SHAW. Yes; it does.

Mr. SPECTER. Is there any hole shown either on the picture or on the trousers themselves?

Dr. SHAW. No.

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Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw, I now show you a body diagram which is marked "Commission Exhibit No. 689."

Senator COOPER. May I ask a question before you ask that question?

When you first saw Governor Connally in the emergency room was he dressed or undressed?

Dr. SHAW. His trousers were still on. He had his shorts on, I should say, Senator Cooper, but his coat, shirt, and trousers had been removed.

Mr. SPECTER. Were his clothes anywhere in the vicinity where you could have seen them?

Dr. SHAW. No; I never saw them. This is the first time that I saw them.

Mr. SPECTER. That is earlier today when you examined them in this room?

Dr. SHAW. That is Correct.

Mr. SPECTER. Looking at Commission Exhibit No. 689, is that a drawing which was prepared, after consultation with you, representing the earlier theory of all of the Governor's wounds having been inflicted by a single missile?

Dr. SHAW. That is Correct.

Mr. SPECTER. With reference to that diagram, would you explain the position that you had earlier thought the Governor to have been in when he was wounded here?

Dr. SHAW. We felt that the Governor was in an upright sitting position, and at the time of wounding was turning slightly to the right. This would bring the three wounds, as we know them, the wound in the chest, the wound in the wrist, and the wound in the thigh into a line assuming that the right forearm was held against the lower right chest in front.

The line of inclination of this particular diagram is a little more sharply downward than is probably correct in view of the inclination of the ribs of the chest.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you redraw that line, Dr. Shaw, to conform with what you believe to be----

Dr. SHAW. The fact that the muscle bundles on either side of the fifth rib were not damaged meant that the missile to strip away 10 centimeters of the rib had to follow this rib pretty much along its line of inclination.

Mr. DULLES. I wonder if you could use that red pencil to make it a little clearer for us?

Dr. SHAW. I think these would probably work well on this paper. Perhaps this isn't a tremendous paint but it slopes just a little too much.

Mr. SPECTER. You have initialed that to show your incline?

Dr. SHAW. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. With respect to the wound you described on the thigh, Dr. Shaw, was there any point of exit as to that wound?

Dr. SHAW. No.

Mr. SPECTER. I now show you----

Mr. DULLES. Could I ask one more question there, how deep was the wound of entry, could you tell at all?

Dr. SHAW. Mr. Dulles, I didn't examine the wound of the thigh so I can't testify as to that. Dr. Gregory, I think, was there at the time that the debris was carried out and he may have more knowledge than I have.

Mr. DULLES. We will hear Dr. Gregory later?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes; he is scheduled to testify as soon as Dr. Shaw concludes.

Dr. Shaw, I now show you Commission Exhibit 399 which has heretofore been identified as being a virtually whole bullet weighing 158 grains.

May I say for the record, that in the depositions which have been taken in Parkland Hospital, that we have ascertained, and those depositions are part of the overall record, that is the bullet which came from the stretcher of Governor Connally.

First, Dr. Shaw, have you had a chance to examine that bullet earlier today?

Dr. SHAW. Yes; I examined it this morning.

Mr. SPECTER. Is it possible that the bullet which went through the Governor's chest could have emerged being as fully intact as that bullet is?

Dr. SHAW. Yes; I believe it is possible because of the fact that the bullet

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struck the fifth rib at a very acute angle and struck a portion of the rib which would not offer a great amount of resistance.

Mr. SPECTER. Does that bullet appear to you to have any of its metal flaked off?

Dr. SHAW. I have been told that the one point on the nose of this bullet that is deformed was cut off for purposes of examination. With that information, I would have to say that this bullet has lost literally none of its substance.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, as to the wound on the thigh, could that bullet have gone into the Governor's thigh without causing any more damage than appears on the face of that bullet?

Dr. SHAW. If it was a spent bullet; yes. As far as the bullet is concerned it could have caused the Governor's thigh wound as a spent missile.

Mr. SPECTER. Why do you say it is a spent missile, would you elaborate on what your thinking is on that issue?

Dr. SHAW. Only from what I have been told by Dr. Shires and Dr. Gregory, that the depth of the wound was only into the subcutaneous tissue, not actually into the muscle of the leg, so it meant that missile had penetrated for a very short period. Am I quoting you correctly, Dr. Gregory?

Mr. SPECTER. May the record show Dr. Gregory is present during this testimony and----

Dr. GREGORY. I will say yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And indicates in the affirmative. Do you have sufficient knowledge of the wound of the wrist to render an opinion as to whether that bullet could have gone through Governor Connally's wrist and emerged being as much intact as it is?

Dr. SHAW. I do not.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw, assume if you will certain facts to be true in hpyothetical form, that is, that the President was struck in the upper portion of the back or lower portion of the neck with a 6.5-mm. missile passing between the strap muscles of the President's neck, proceeding through a facia channel striking no bones, not violating the pleural cavity, and emerging through the anterior third of the neck, with the missile having been fired from a weapon having a muzzle velocity of approximately 2,000 feet per second, with the muzzle being approximately 160 to 250 feet from the President's body; that the missile was a copper jacketed bullet. Would it be possible for that bullet to have then proceeded approximately 4 or 5 feet and then would it be possible for it to have struck Governor Connally in the back and have inflicted the wound which you have described on the posterior aspect of his chest, and also on the anterior aspect of his chest?

Dr. SHAW. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And what would your reason be for giving an affirmative answer to that question, Dr. Shaw?

Dr. SHAW. Because I would feel that a missile with this velocity and weight striking no more than the soft tissues of the neck would have adequate velocity and mass to inflict the wound that we found on the Governor's chest.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, without respect to whether or not the bullet identified as Commission Exhibit 399 is or is not the one which inflicted the wound on the Governor, is it possible that a missile similar to the one which I have just described in the hypothetical question could have inflicted all of the Governor's wounds in accordance with the theory which you have outlined on Commission Exhibit No. 689?

Dr. SHAW. Assuming that it also had passed through the President's neck you mean?

Mr. SPECTER. No; I had not added that factor in. I will in the next question.

Dr. SHAW. All right. As far as the wounds of the chest are concerned, I feel that this bullet could have inflicted those wounds. But the examination of the wrist both by X-ray and at the time of surgery showed some fragments of metal that make it difficult to believe that the same missile could have caused these two wounds. There seems to be more than three grains of metal missing as far as the I mean in the wrist.

Mr. SPECTER. Your answer there, though, depends upon the assumption that the bullet which we have identified as Exhibit 399 is the bullet which did the

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damage to the Governor. Aside from whether or not that is the bullet which inflicted the Governor's wounds.

Dr. SHAW. I see.

Mr. SPECTER. Could a bullet traveling in the path which I have described in the prior hypothetical question, have inflicted nil of the wounds on the Governor?

Dr. SHAW. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And so far as the velocity and the dimension of the bullet are concerned, is it possible that the same bullet could have gone through the President in the way that I have described and proceed through the Governor causing all of his wounds without regard to whether or not it was bullet 399?

Dr. SHAW. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. When you started to comment about it not being possible, was that in reference to the existing mass and shape of bullet 399?

Dr. SHAW. I thought you were referring directly to the bullet shown as Exhibit 399.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your opinion as to whether bullet 399 could have inflicted all of the wounds on the Governor, then, without respect at this point to the wound of the President's neck?

Dr. SHAW. I feel that there would be some difficulty in explaining all of the wounds as being inflicted by bullet Exhibit 399 without causing more in the way of loss of substance to the bullet or deformation of the bullet.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw, have you had an opportunity today here in the Cornmission building to view the movies which we referred to as the Zapruder movies and the slides taken from these movies?

Dr. SHAW. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And what, if any, light did those movies shed on your evaluation and opinions on this matter with respect to the wounds of the Governor?

Dr. SHAW. Well, my main interest was to try to place the time that the Governor was struck by the bullet which inflicted the wound on his chest in reference to the sequence of the three shots, as has been described to us.

(At this point the Chief Justice entered the hearing room.)

This meant trying to carefully examine the position of the Governor's body in the car so that it would fall in line with what we knew the trajectory must be for this bullet coming from the point where it has been indicated it did come from. And in trying to place this actual frame that these frames are numbered when the Governor was hit, my opinion was that it was frame number, let's see, I think it was No. 36.

Mr. SPECTER 236?

Dr. SHAW. 236, give or take 1 or 2 frames. It was right in 35, 36, 37, perhaps.

Mr. SPECTER. I have heretofore asked you questions about what possibly could have happened in terms of the various combinations of possibilities on missiles striking the Governor in relationship to striking the President as well. Do you have any opinion as to what, in fact, did happen?

Dr. SHAW. Yes. From the pictures, from the conversation with Governor Connally and Mrs. Connally, it seems that the first bullet hit the President in the shoulder and perforated the neck, but this was not the bullet that Governor Connally feels hit him; and in the sequence of films I think it is hard to say that the first bullet hit both of these men almost simultaneously.

Mr. SPECTER. Is that view based on the information which Governor Connally provided to you?

Dr. SHAW. Largely.

Mr. SPECTER. As opposed to any objectively determinable facts from the bullets, the situs of the wounds or your viewing of the pictures?

Dr. SHAW. Yes. I was influenced a great deal by what Governor Connally knew about his movements in the car at this particular time.

Mr. DULLES. You have indicated a certain angle of declination on this chart here which the Chief Justice has.

Dr. SHAW. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know enough about the angle of declination of the bullet that hit the President to Judge at all whether these two angles of declination are consistent?

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Dr. SHAW. We know that the angle of declination was a downward one from hack to front so that I think this is consistent with the angle of declination of the wound that the Governor sustained.

Senator COOPER. Are you speaking of the angle of declination in the President's body?

Dr. SHAW. Of the first wound?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes.

Dr. SHAW. First wound.

Mr. SPECTER. What you have actually seen from pictures to show the angle of declination?

Dr. SHAW. That is right.

Mr. SPECTER. In the wounds in the President's body?

Dr. SHAW. Yes; that is right. I did not examine the President.

Mr. DULLES. And that angle taking into account say the 4 feet difference between where the President was sitting and where the Governor was sitting, would be consistent with the point of entry of the Governor's body as you have shown it?

Dr. SHAW. The jump seat in the car, as we could see, placed the Governor sitting at a lower level than the President, and I think conceivably these two wounds could have been caused by the same bullet.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything else to add, Dr. Shaw, which you think would be helpful to the Commission in any way?

Dr. SHAW. I don't believe so Mr. Specter.

Mr. SPECTER. May it please the Commission then I would like to move into evidence Commission Exhibits Nos. 679 and 680, and then reserve Nos. 681 and 682 until we get the photographs of the X-rays and I now move for admission into evidence Commission Exhibits Nos. 683 through 689.

Senator COOPER. They have all been identified, have they?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes, sir; during the course of Dr. Shaw's testimony.

Senator COOPER. It is ordered then that these exhibits be received in the record.

(The documents referred to, previously identified as Commission Exhibits Nos. 679, 680, and 683-689 for identification were received in evidence.)

Mr. McCLOY. Just one or two questions. It is perfectly clear, Doctor, that the wound, the lethal wound on the President did not--the bullet that caused the lethal wound on the President, did not cause any wounds on Governor Connally, in your opinion?

Dr. SHAW. Mr. McCloy, I couldn't say that from my knowledge.

Mr. McCLOY. We are talking about the, following up what Mr. Dulles said about the angle of declination, the wound that came through the President's collar, you said was consistent between the same bullet. I just wondered whether under all the circumstances that you know about the President's head wound on the top that would also be consistent with a wound in Governor Connally's body?

Dr. SHAW. On the chest, yes; I am not so sure about the wrist. I can't quite place where his wrist was at the time his chest was struck.

Mr. McCLOY. Now perhaps this is Dr. Gregory's testimony, that is the full description of the wrist wound, that would be his rather than your testimony?

Dr. SHAW. I think he could throw just as much light on it as I could. And more in certain aspects.

Mr. McCLOY. It did hit bone?

Dr. SHAW. Obviously.

Mr. McCLOY. And there must have been a considerable diminution in the velocity of the bullet after penetrating through the wrist?

Dr. SHAW. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. The wound inflicted on it, the chest wound on Governor Connally, if you move that an inch or two, 1 inch or the other, could that have been lethal, go through an area that could easily have been lethal?

Dr. SHAW. Yes; of course, if it had been moved more medially it could have struck the heart and the great vessels.

Mr. McCLOY. Let me ask you this, Doctor, in your experience with gunshot wounds, is it possible for a man to be hit sometime before he realizes it?

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Dr. SHAW. Yes. There can be a delay in the sensory reaction.

Mr. McCLOY. Yes; so that a man can think as of a given instant he was not hit, and when actually he could have been hit.

Dr. SHAW. There can be an extending. sensation and then just a gradual building up of a feeling of severe injury.

Mr. McCLOY. But there could be a delay in any appreciable reaction between the time of the impact of the bullet and the occurrence?

Dr. SHAW. Yes; but in the case of a wound which strikes a bony substance such as a rib, usually the reaction is quite prompt.

Mr. McCLOY. Yes.

Dr. SHAW. Yes.

Mr. McCLOY. Now, you have indicated, I think, that this bullet traveled along, hit and traveled along the path of the rib, is that right?

Dr. SHAW. Yes.

Mr. McCLOY. Is it possible that it could have not, the actual bullet could not have hit the rib at all but it might have been the expanding flesh that would cause the wound or the proper contusion, I guess you would call it on the rib itself?

Dr. SHAW. I think we would have to postulate that the bullet hit the rib itself by the neat way in which it stripped the rib out without doing much damage to the muscles that lay on either side of it.

Mr. McCLOY. Was---up until you gave him the anesthetic--the Governor was fully conscious, was he?

Dr. SHAW. I would not say fully, but he was responsive. He would answer questions.

Mr. McCLOY. I think that is all I have.

The CHAIRMAN. I have no questions of the doctor.

Mr. DULLES. There were no questions put to him that were significant as far as our testimony is concerned?

Dr. SHAW. No; we really don't have to question him much. Our problem was pretty clearcut, and he told us it hurt and that was about his only response as far as----

Senator COOPER. Could I ask you a question, doctor?

I think you said from the time you came into the emergency room and the time you went to the operating room was about 5 minutes?

Dr. SHAW. Yes; it was just the time that it took to ask a few simple questions, what has been done so far, and has the operating room been alerted, and then I went out and talked to Mrs. Connally, just very briefly, I told her what the problem was in respect to the Governor and what we were going to have to do about it and she said to go ahead with anything that was necessary. So this couldn't have taken more than 5 minutes or so.

Mr. DULLES. Did he say anything or did anyone say anything there about the circumstances of the shooting?

Dr. SHAW. Not at that time.

Mr. DULLES. Either of Governor Connally or the President?

Dr. SHAW. Not at that time. All of our conversation was later.

Mr. DULLES. Was the President in the same room?

Dr. SHAW. No.

Mr. DULLES. Did you see him?

Dr. SHAW. I only saw his shoes and his feet. He was in the room immediately opposite. As I came into the hallway, I could recognize that the President was on it, in the room to my right. I knew that my problem was concerned with Governor Connally, and I turned and went into the room where I saw that he was.

Mr. DULLES. Did you hear at that time or have any knowledge, of a bullet which had been found on the stretcher?

Dr. SHAW. No; this was later knowledge.

Mr. DULLES. When did you first hear that?

(At this point Senator Russell entered the hearing room.)

Dr. SHAW. This information was first given to me by a man from the Secret Service who interviewed me in my office several weeks later. It is the first time I knew about any bullet being recovered.

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Senator COOPER. I think, of course, it is evident from your testimony you have had wide experience in chest wounds and bullet wounds in the chest.

What experience have you had in, say, the field of ballistics? Would this experience you have been dealing in chest wounds caused by bullets--have provided you knowledge also about the characteristics of missiles, particularly bullets of this type?

Dr. SHAW. No; Senator. I believe that my information about ballistics is just that of an average layman, no more. Perhaps a little more since I have seen deformed bullets from wounds, but I haven't gone into that aspect of wounds.

Senator COOPER. In the answers to the hypothetical questions that were addressed to you, based upon the only actual knowledge which you could base that answer, was the fact that you had performed the operation on the wound caused in the chest, on the wound in the chest?

Dr. SHAW. That is true. I have seen many bullets that have passed through bodies or have penetrated bodies and have struck bone and I know manners from which they are deformed but I know very little about the caliber of bullets, the velocity of bullets, many things that other people have much more knowledge of than I have.

Senator COOPER. That is all.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much, Dr. Shaw.

Dr. Charles Francis Gregory

Page 117

TESTIMONY OF DR. CHARLES FRANCIS GREGORYTESTIMONY OF DR. ROBERT ROEDER SHAW

Senator COOPER. The Commission will come to order.

Dr. Shaw, you understand that the purpose of this inquiry is taken under the order of the President appointing the Commission on the assassination of President Kennedy to investigate all the facts relating to his assassination.

Dr. SHAW. I do.

Senator COOPER. And report to the public.

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Dr. SHAW. I do.

Senator COOPER. Do you desire an attorney to be with you?

Dr. SHAW. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you state your full name for the record, please?

Dr. SHAW. Robert Roeder Shaw.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your profession, please?

Dr. SHAW. Physician and surgeon.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you outline briefly your educational background?

Dr. SHAW. I received my B.A. degree from the University of Michigan in 1927, and my M.D. degree from the same institution in 1933.

Following that I served 2 years at the Roosevelt Hospital in New York City from July 1934, to July 1936, in training in general surgery. I had then 2 years of training in thoracic surgery at the University Hospital, Ann Arbor, Mich., from July 1936 to July 1933.

On August 1, 1938, I entered private practice limiting my practice to thoracic surgery in Dallas, Tex.

Mr. DULLES. What kind of surgery?

Dr. SHAW. Thoracic surgery or surgery of the chest,

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I have practiced there continuously except for a period from June 1942, until December 1945, when I was a member of the Medical Corps of the Army of the United States serving principally in the European theater of operations.

I was away again from December 1961, until June of 1963, when I was head of the MEDICO team and performed surgery at Avicenna Hospital in Kabul, Pakistan.

Mr. DULLES. Will you tell us a little bit about MEDICO. Is that the ship?

Dr. SHAW. No; that is HOPE. MEDICO was formed by the late Dr. Tom Dooley.

Mr. DULLES. Yes; I know him very well. He was the man in Laos.

Dr. SHAW. Yes, sir; this was one of their projects.

Mr. DULLES. I see.

Dr. SHAW. I returned to----

Mr. DULLES. An interesting project.

Dr. SHAW. I returned to Dallas and on September 1, 1963, started working full time with the University of Texas Southwestern Medical School as professor of thoracic surgery and chairman of the division of thoracic surgery.

In this position I also am chief of thoracic surgery at Parkland Memorial Hospital in Dallas which is the chief hospital from the standpoint of the medical facilities of the school.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you licensed to practice medicine in the State of Texas?

Dr. SHAW. I am.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you certified?

Dr. SHAW. By the board of thoracic surgery you mean?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes; by the board of thoracic surgery.

Dr. SHAW. Yes; as of 1948.

Mr. SPECTER. What experience, if any, have you had, Dr. Shaw, with bullet wounds?

Dr. SHAW. I have had civilian experience, both in the work at Parkland Hospital, where we see a great amount of trauma, and much of this involves bullet wounds from homicidal attempts and accidents.

The chief experience I had, however, was during the Second World War when I was serving as chief of the thoracic surgery center in Paris, France. And during this particular experience we admitted over 900 patients with chest wounds of various sort, many of them, of course, being shell fragments rather than bullet wounds.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate as to the total number of bullet wounds you have had experience with?

Dr. SHAW. It would be approximately 1,000, considering the large number of admissions we had in Paris.

Mr. SPECTER What were your duties in a general way on November 22, 1963.

Dr. SHAW. On that particular date I had been at a conference at Woodlawn Hospital, which is our hospital for medical chest diseases connected with the medical school system. I had just gone to the Children's Hospital to see a small patient that I had done a bronchoscopy on a few days before and was returning to Parkland Hospital, and the medical school.

Woodlawn and the Children's Hospital are approximately a mile away from Parkland Hospital.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you called upon to render any aid to President Kennedy on November 22?

Dr. SHAW. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you called upon to render medical aid to Gov. John B. Connally on that day?

Dr. SHAW. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe briefly the circumstances surrounding your being called into the case.

Dr. SHAW. As I was driving toward the medical school I came to an intersection of Harry Hines Boulevard and Industrial Boulevard.

There is also a railroad crossing at this particular point. I saw an open limousine pass this point at high speed with a police escort. We were held up in traffic because of this escort Finally, when we were allowed to proceed,

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I went on to the medical school expecting to eat lunch. I had the radio on because it was the day that I knew the President was in Dallas and would be eating lunch at the Trade Mart which was not far away, and over the radio I heard the report that the President had been shot at while riding in the motorcade. I went on to the medical school and as I entered the medical school a student came in and joined three other students, and said the President has just been brought into the emergency room at Parkland, dead on arrival.

The students said, "You are kidding, aren't you?" and he said, "No, I am not. I saw him, and Governor Connally has-been shot through the chest."

Hearing that I turned and walked over to the emergency room, which is approximately 150 yards from. the medical school, and entered the emergency room.

Mr. SPECTER. At approximately what time did you arrive at the emergency room where Governor Connally was situated?

Dr. SHAW. As near as I could tell it was about 12:45.

Mr. SPECTER. Who was with Governor Connally, if anyone, at that time, Dr. Shaw?

Dr. SHAW. I immediately recognized two of the men who worked with me in thoracic surgery, Dr. James Duke and Dr. James Boland, Dr. Giesecke, who is an anesthesiologist, was also there along with a Dr. David Mebane who is an instructor in general surgery.

Mr. SPECTER. What was Governor Connally's condition at that time, based on your observations?

Dr. SHAW. The Governor was complaining bitterly of difficulty in breathing, and of pain in his right chest. Prior to my arriving there, the men had very properly placed a tight occlusive dressing over what on later examination proved to be a large sucking wound in the front of his right chest, and they had inserted a rubber tube between the second and third ribs in the front of the right chest, carrying this tube to what we call a water seal bottle.

Mr. SPECTER What was the purpose?

Dr. SHAW. Yes; this is done to reexpand the right lung which had collapsed due to the opening through the chest wall.

Mr. SPECTER. What wounds, if any, did you observe on the Governor at that time?

Dr. SHAW. I observed no wounds on the Governor at this time. It wasn't until he was taken to the operating room that I properly examined him from the standpoint of the wound.

Mr. SPECTER. How long after your initial viewing of him was he taken to the operating room?

Dr. SHAW. Within about 5 minutes. I stepped outside to talk to Mrs. Con-natty because I had been given information by Dr. Duke that blood had been drawn from the Governor, sent to the laboratory for cross-matching for blood that we knew would be necessary, that the operating room had already been alerted, and that they were ready and they were merely awaiting my arrival.

Mr. SPECTER. How was Governor Connally transported from the emergency room to the operating room?

Dr. SHAW. On a stretcher.

Mr. SPECTER. And was he transported up an elevator as well?

Dr. SHAW. Yes. It is two floors above the emergency rooms.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe what happened next in connection with Governor Connally's----

Mr. DULLES. Could I ask a question, putting in this tube is prior to making an incision?

Dr. SHAW. Yes; a stab wound.

Mr. DULLES. Just a stab wound?

Dr. SHAW. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. What treatment next followed for Governor Connally, Doctor?

Dr. SHAW. He was taken to the operating room and there Dr. Giesecke started the anesthesia. This entails giving an intravenous injection of sodium pentothal and then after the Governor was asleep a gas was used, that will be on the anesthetic record there.

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Mr. SPECTER. Do you know at approximately what time this procedure was started?

Dr. SHAW. I will have to refresh my memory again from the record. We had at the time I testified before, we had the

Mr. SPECTER. Permit me to make available to you a copy of the Parkland Memorial Hospital operative record and let me ask you, first of all, if you can identify these two pages on an exhibit heretofore marked as Commission Exhibit 392 as to whether or not this constitutes your report?

Dr. SHAW. Yes; this is a transcription of my dictated report of the operation.

Mr. SPECTER. Are the facts set forth therein true and correct?

Dr. SHAW. Yes. On this it states that the operation itself was begun at 1300 hours or 1 o'clock, 1 p.m., and that the actual surgery started at 1335 or 1:35 p.m.

The operation was concluded by me at 3--1520 which would be 3:20 p.m.

Mr. SPECTER. You have described, in a general way, the chest wound. What other wounds, if any, was Governor Connally suffering from at the time you saw him?

Dr. SHAW. I will describe then the wound of the wrist which was obvious. He had a wound of the lower right forearm that I did not accurately examine because I had already talked to Dr. Gregory while I was scrubbing for the operation, told him that this wound would need his attention as soon as we were able to get the chest in a satisfactory condition. There was also, I was told, I didn't see the wound, on the thigh, I was told that there was a small wound on the thigh which I saw later.

Mr. SPECTER. When did you first have an opportunity then to examine Governor Connally's wound on the posterior aspect of his chest?

Dr. SHAW. After the Governor had been anesthetized. As soon as he was asleep so we could manipulate him--before that time it was necessary for an endotracheal tube to be in place so his respirations could be controlled before we felt we could roll him over and accurately examine the wound entrance. We knew this was the wound exit.

Mr. SPECTER. This [indicating an area below the right nipple on the body]?

Dr. SHAW. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. How did you know it was a wound exit.

Dr. SHAW. By the fact of its size, the ragged edges of the wound. This wound was covered by a dressing which could not be removed until the Governor was anesthetized.

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating this wound, the wound on the Governor's chest?

Dr. SHAW. Yes; the front part.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe in as much detail as you can the wound on the posterior side of the Governor's chest?

Dr. SHAW. This was a small wound approximately a centimeter and a half in its greatest diameter. It was roughly elliptical. It was just medial to the axilliary fold or the crease of the armpit, but we could tell that this wound, the depth of the wound, had not penetrated the shoulder blade.

Mr. SPECTER. What were the characteristics, if any, which indicated to you that it was a wound of entrance then?

Dr. SHAW. Its small size, and the rather clean cut edges of the wound as compared to the usual more ragged wound of exit.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, I hand you a diagram which is a body diagram on Commission Exhibit No. 679, and ask you if, on the back portion of the figure, that accurately depicts the point of entry into Governor Connally's back?

Dr. SHAW. Yes. The depiction of the point of entry, I feel is quite accurate.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, with respect to the front side of the body, is the point of exit accurately shown on the diagram?

Dr. SHAW. The point is----

Mr. SPECTER. We have heretofore, may the record show the deposition covered much the same ground with Dr. Shaw, but the diagrams used now are new diagrams which will have to be remarked in accordance with your recollection.

Dr. SHAW. Yes. Because I would have to place they are showing here the angle.

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Mr. DULLES. Is this all on the record?

Mr. SPECTER. It should be.

Dr. SHAW. We are showing on this angle, the cartilage angle which it makes at the end of the sternum.

Mr. SPECTER. That is an inverted V which appears in front of the body?

Dr. SHAW. Now the wound was above that. They have shown it below that point so the wound would have to be placed here as far as the point is concerned.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you draw on that diagram a more accurate depiction of where the wound of exit occurred?

Dr. SHAW. Do you want me to initial this?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes; if you please, Dr. Shaw.

I hand you another body diagram marked Commission Exhibit 680 and I will ask you if that accurately depicts the angle of decline as the bullet passed through Governor Connally?

Dr. SHAW. I think the declination of this line is a little too sharply downward. I would place it about 5° off that line.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you redraw the line then, Dr. Shaw, and initial it, indicating the more accurate angle?

Dr. SHAW. The reason I state this is that as they have shown this, it would place the wound of exit a little too far below the nipple. Also it would, since the bullet followed the line of declination of the fifth rib, it would make the ribs placed in a too slanting position.

Mr. SPECTER. What operative procedures did you employ in caring for the wound of the chest, Dr. Shaw.

Dr. SHAW. The first measure was to excise the edges of the wound of exit in an elliptical fashion, and then this incision was carried in a curved incision along the lateral portion of the right chest up toward the right axilla in order to place the skin incision lower than the actual path of the bullet through the chest wall.

After this incision had been carried down to the level of the muscles attached to the rib cage, all of the damaged muscle which was chiefly the serratus anterior muscle which digitates along the fifth rib at this position, was cleaned away, cut away with sharp dissection.

As soon as--of course, this incision had been made, the opening through the parietal pleura, which is the lining of the inside of the chest was very obvious. It was necessary to trim away several small fragments of the rib which were still hanging to tags of periosteum, the lining of the rib, and the ragged ends of the rib were smoothed off with a rongeur.

Mr. SPECTER. What damage had been inflicted upon a rib, if any, Dr. Shaw?

Dr. SHAW. About 10 centimeters of the fifth rib starting at the, about the mid-axillary line and going to the anterior axillary line, as we describe it, or that would be the midline at the armpit going to the anterior lateral portion of the chest had been stripped away by the missile.

Mr. SPECTER. What is the texture of the rib at the point where the missile struck?

Dr. SHAW. The texture of the rib here is not of great density. The cortex of the rib in the lateral portions of our ribs, is thin with the so-called cancellus portion of the rib being very spongy, offering very little resistance to pressure or to fracturing.

Mr. SPECTER. What effect, if any, would the striking of that rib have had to the trajectory of the bullet?

Dr. SHAW. It could have had a slight, caused a slight deflection of the rib, but probably not a great deflection of the rib, because of the angle at which it struck and also because of the texture of the rib at this time.

Mr. SPECTER. You say deflection of the rib or deflection of the bullet?

Dr. SHAW. Deflection of the bullet, I am sorry.

Mr. SPECTER. Was any metallic substance from the bullet left in the thoracic cage as a result of the passage of the bullet through the Governor's body?

Dr. SHAW. No. We saw no evidence of any metallic material in the X-ray that we had of the chest, and we found none during the operation.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you brought the X-rays with you, Dr. Shaw, from Parkland Hospital?

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Dr. SHAW. Yes; we have them here.

Mr. SPECTER. May the record show we have available a viewer for the X-rays.

Dr. Shaw, would you, by use of the viewer, exhibit the X-rays of the Governor's chest to show more graphically that which you have heretofore described?

Dr. SHAW. This is the first X-ray that was taken, which was taken in the operating room with the Governor on the operating table, and at this time anesthetized. The safety pin that you see here is used, was used, to secure the tube which had been put between the second and third rib in expanding the Governor's lung.

We can dimly see also the latex rubber tube up in the chest coming to the apex of the chest.

The variations that we see from normal here are the fact that first, there is a great amount of swelling in the chest wall which we know was due to bleeding and bruising of the tissues of the chest wall, and we also see that there is air in the tissues of the chest wall here and here. It is rather obvious.

Mr. SPECTER. When you say here and here, you are referring to the outer portions, showing on the X-ray moving up toward the shoulder area?

Dr. SHAW. Yes; going from the lower chest up to the region near the angle of the shoulder blade.

The honey framework of the chest, it is obvious that the fifth rib, we count ribs from above downward, this is the first rib, second rib, third rib, fourth rib, fifth rib, that a portion of this rib has been shattered, and we can see a few fragments that have been left behind.

Also the rib has because of being broken and losing some of its substance, has taken a rather inward position in relation to the fourth and the sixth ribs on either side.

Mr. SPECTER. What effect was there, if any, on the upper portion of that rib?

Dr. SHAW. This was not noticed at the time of this examination, Mr. Specter. However, in subsequent examinations we can tell that there was a fracture across the rib at this point due to the rib being struck and bent.

Mr. SPECTER. When you say this point, will you describe where that point exists on the X-ray?

Dr. SHAW. This is a point approximately 4 centimeters from its connection with the transverse process of the spine.

Mr. SPECTER. And is the fracture, which is located there, caused by a striking there or by the striking at the end of the rib?

Dr. SHAW. It is caused by the striking at the end of the rib.

Mr. SPECTER. Fine. What else then is discernible from the viewing of the X-ray, Dr. Shaw?

Dr. SHAW. There is a great amount of, we would say, obscuration of the lower part of the right lung field which we know from subsequent examination was due to blood in the pleural cavity and also due to a hematoma in the lower part of the right lower lobe and also a severe laceration of the middle lobe with it having lost its ability to ventilate at that time. So, we have both an airless lung, and blood in the lung to account for these shadows.

Mr. SPECTER. Is there anything else visible from the X-ray which is helpful in our understanding of the Governor's condition?

Dr. SHAW. No; I don't think so.

Mr. SPECTER. Would it be useful--As to that X-ray, Dr. Shaw, will you tell us what identifying data, if any, it has in the records of Parkland Hospital, for the record?

Dr. SHAW. On this X-ray it has in pencil John G. Connally.

Mr. SPECTER. Is that G or C?

Dr. SHAW. They have a "G" November 22, 1963, and it has a number 218-922.

Mr. SPECTER. Were those X-rays taken under your supervision?

Dr. SHAW. Yes, by a technician.

Mr. SPECTER. And that is, in fact, the X-ray then which was taken of Governor Connally at the time these procedures were being performed?

Dr. SHAW. It is.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw, would any of the other X-rays be helpful in our understanding of the Governor's condition?

Dr. SHAW. I believe the only--perhaps showing one additional X-ray would

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show the fracture previously described which was not easily discernible on the first film. This is quite often true but not important to the here is the fracture that can be easily seen.

Mr. SPECTER. You are now referring to a separate and second X-ray.

Dr. SHAW. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you start out by telling us on what date this X-ray was performed.

Dr. SHAW. This X-ray was made on the 29th of November 1963. 7 days following the incident.

Mr. SPECTER. What does it show of significance?

Dr. SHAW. It shows that there has been considerable clearing in the lower portion of the lung, and also that there is a fracture of the fifth rib as previously described approximately 4 centimeters from the transverse process posteriorly.

Mr. SPECTER. Is there anything else depicted by that X-ray of material assistance in evaluating the Governor's wound?

Dr. SHAW. No.

Mr. McCLOY. Were there any photographs taken as distinguished from X-rays of the body?

Dr. SHAW. There were no photographs.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw, we shall then, subject to the approval of the Commission, for the record, have the X-rays reproduced at Parkland Memorial Hospital, and, if possible, also have a photograph of the X-ray made for the permanent records of the Commission to show the actual X-ray, which Dr. Shaw has described during his testimony here this afternoon.

Senator COOPER. It is directed that it be made a part of the record of these hearings.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw, what additional operative procedures did you perform on Governor Connally's chest?

Dr. SHAW. I will continue with my description of the operative procedure. The opening that had been made through the rib after the removal of the fragments was adequate for further exploration of the pleural cavity. A self-retaining retractor was put into place to maintain exposure. Inside the pleural cavity there were approximately 200 cc. of clotted blood.

It was found that the middle lobe had been lacerated with the laceration dividing the lobe into roughly two equal parts. The laceration ran from the lower tip of the middle lobe up into its root or hilum.

However, the lobe was not otherwise damaged, so that it could he repaired using a running suture of triple zero chromic catgut.

The anterior basal segments of the right lower lobe had a large hematoma, and blood was oozing out of one small laceration that was a little less than a centimeter in length, where a rib fragment had undoubtedly been driven into the lobe. To control hemorrhage a single suture of triple zero chromic gut was placed in this laceration. There were several small matchstick size fragments of rib within the pleural cavity. Examination, however, of the pericardium of the diaphragm and the upper lobe revealed no injury to these parts of the chest.

A drain was placed in the eighth space in the posterior axillary line similar to the drain which had been placed in the second interspace in the front of the chest.

The drain in the front of the chest was thought to be a little too long so about 3 centimeters of it were cut away.

Attention was then turned on the laceration of the latissimus dorsi muscle where the missile had passed through it. Several sutures of chromic gut where used to repair this muscle.

The incision was then closed with interrupted No. zero chromic gut in the muscles of the chest wall--first, I am sorry, in the intercostale muscle, and muscles of the chest wall, and the same suture material was used to close the serratus anterior muscle in the subcutaneous tissue, and interrupted vertical sutures of black silk were used to close the skin.

Attention was then turned to the wound of entrance which, as previously described, was about a centimeter and a half in its greatest diameter, roughly

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elliptical in shape. The skin edges of this wound were incised excised, I beg your pardon--I have to go back just a little bit.

Prior to examination of this wound, a stab wound was made at the angle of the scapula to place a drain in the subscapular space. In the examination of the wound of entrance, the examining finger could determine that this drain was immediately under the wound of entrance, so that it was adequately draining the space.

Two sutures were placed in the facia of the muscle, and the skin was closed with interrupted vertical matching sutures of black silk.

That concluded the operation. Both tubes were connected to a water seal bottle, and the dressing was applied.

Mr. SPECTER. Who was in charge then of the subsequent care on the Governor's wrist?

Dr. SHAW. Dr. Charles Gregory who had been previously alerted and then came in to take care of the wrist.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, with respect to the wound on the wrist, did you have any opportunity to examine it by way of determining points of entry and exit?

Dr. SHAW. My examination of the wrist was a very cursory one. I could tell that there was a compound comminuted fracture because there was motion present, and there was a ragged wound just over the radius above the wrist joint. But that was the extent of my examination of the wrist.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw, did I take your deposition at Parkland Memorial Hospital on March 23 of 1964?

Dr. SHAW. Yes; you did.

Mr. SPECTER. Has that deposition been made available to you?

Dr. SHAW. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. To you here this afternoon?

Dr. SHAW. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you subsequent to the giving of that deposition on March 23, 1964, had an opportunity to examine Governor Connally's clothing which we have available in the Commission room here today?

Dr. SHAW. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, based on all facts now within your knowledge, is there any modification which you would care to make in terms of the views which you expressed about entrance and exit wounds back on March 23, based on the information which was available to you at that time?

Dr. SHAW. From an examination of the clothing, it is very obvious that the wound of entrance was through the coat sleeve.

Mr. SPECTER. While you are testifying in that manner, perhaps it would be helpful if we would make available to you the actual Jacket, if it pleases the Commission.

We shall reserve Exhibits Nos. 681 for the X-ray of November 22; 682 for the X-ray of November 29; and we shall now mark a photograph of the coat for our permanent records as "Commission Exhibit No. 683".

Dr. Shaw, I hand you at this time what purports to be the coat worn by Governor Connally, which we introduce subject to later proof when Governor Connally appears later this afternoon; and, for the record, I ask you first of all if this photograph, designated as Commission Exhibit No. 683, is a picture of this suit coat?

Dr. SHAW. It is.

Mr. SPECTER. I had interrupted you when you started to refer to the hole in the sleeve of the coat. Will you proceed with what you were testifying about there?

Dr. SHAW. The hole in the sleeve of the coat is within hall a centimeter of the very edge of the sleeve, and lies----

Mr. DULLES. This is the right sleeve, is it not?

Dr. SHAW. I am sorry, yea Thank you. Of the right sleeve, and places it, if the coat sleeve was in the same position, assuming it is in the same position that my coat sleeve is in, places it directly over the lateral portion of the wrist, really not directly on the volar or the dorsum of the surface of the wrist,

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but on the lateral position or the upper position, as the wrist is held in a neutral position.

Mr. SPECTER. With the additional information provided by the coat, would that enable you to give an opinion as to which was the wound of entrance and which the wound of exit on the Governor's wrist?

Dr. SHAW. There is only one tear in the Governor's garment as far as the appearance of the tear is concerned, I don't think I could render an opinion as to whether this is a wound of entrance or exit.

Mr. SPECTER. Then, do you have sufficient information at your disposal in total, based on your observations and what you know now to give any meaningful opinion as to which was the wound of entrance and which the wound of exit on the Governor's wrist?

Dr. SHAW. I would prefer to have Dr. Gregory testify about that, because he has examined it more carefully than I have.

Mr. SPECTER. Fine.

Mr. DULLES. Could you tell at all how the arm was held from that mark or that hole in the sleeve?

Dr. SHAW. Mr. Dulles, I thought I knew Just how the Governor was wounded until I saw the pictures today, and it becomes a little bit harder to explain.

I felt that the wound had been caused by the same bullet that came out through the chest with the Governor's arm held in approximately this position.

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating the right hand held close to the body?

Dr. SHAW. Yes, and this is still a possibility. But I don't feel that it is the only possibility.

Senator COOPER. Why do you say you don't think it is the only possibility? What causes you now to say that it is the location----

Dr. SHAW. This is again the testimony that I believe Dr. Gregory will be giving, too. It is a matter of whether the wrist wound could be caused by the same bullet, and we felt that it could but we had not seen the bullets until today, and we still do not know which bullet actually inflicted the wound on Governor Connally.

Mr. DULLES. Or whether it was one or two wounds?

Dr. SHAW. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. Or two bullets?

Dr. SHAW. Yes; or three.

Mr. DULLES. Why do you say three?

Dr. SHAW. He has three separate wounds. He has a wound in the chest, a wound of the wrist, a wound of the thigh.

Mr. DULLES. Oh, yes; we haven't. come to the wound of the thigh yet, have we?

Mr. McCLOY. You have no firm opinion that all these three wounds were caused by one bullet?

Dr. SHAW. I have no firm opinion.

Mr. McCLOY. That is right.

Dr. SHAW. Asking me this now if it was true. If you had asked me a month ago I would have.

Mr. DULLES. Could they have been caused by one bullet, in your opinion?

Dr. SHAW. They could.

Mr. McCLOY. I gather that what the witness is saying is that it is possible that. they might have been caused by one bullet. But that he has no firm opinion now that they were.

Mr. DULLES. As I understand it too. Is our understanding correct?

Dr. SHAW. That is correct.

Senator COOPER. When you say all three are you referring to the wounds you have just described to the chest, the wound in the wrist, and also the wound in the thigh?

Dr. SHAW. Yes.

Senator COOPER. It was possible?

Dr. SHAW. Our original assumption, Senator Cooper, was that the Governor was approximately in this attitude at the time he was----

Senator COOPER. What attitude is that now?

Dr. SHAW. This is an attitude sitting in a jump seat as we know he was,

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upright, with his right forearm held across the lower portion of the chest. In this position, the trajectory of the bullet could have caused the wound of entrance, the wound of exit, struck his wrist and proceeded on into the left thigh. But although this is a possibility, I can't give a firm opinion that this is the actual way in which it occurred.

Mr. SPECTER. If it pleases the Commission, we propose to go through that in this testimony; and we have already started to mark other exhibits in sequence on the clothing. So that it will be more systematic, we plan to proceed with the identification of clothing and then go on to the composite diagram which explains the first hypothesis of Dr. Shaw and the other doctors of Park- land. And then proceed from that, as I intend to do, with an examination of the bullet, which will explore the thinking of the doctor on that subject.

Dr. Shaw, for our record, I will hand you Commission Exhibit No. 684 and ask you if that is a picture of the reverse side of the coat, which we will later prove to have been worn by Governor Connally, the coat which is before you?

Dr. SHAW. It is.

Mr. SPECTER. What, if anything, appears on the back of that coat and also on the picture in line with the wound which you have described on the Governor's posterior chest?

Dr. SHAW. The picture the coat and the picture of the coat, show a rent in the back of the coat approximately 2- centimeters medial to the point where the sleeve has been joined to the main portion of the garment.

The lighter-colored material of the lining of the coat can be seen through this rent in the coat.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw, I show you a shirt, subject to later proof that it was the shirt worn by Governor Connally, together with a photograph marked "Commission Exhibit No. 685," and ask you if that is a picture of that shirt, the back side of the shirt?

Dr. SHAW. Yes; it is a picture of the back side of the shirt. However, in this particular picture I am not able to make out the hole in the shirt very well.

Now I see it, I believe; yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe the hole as you see it to exist in the shirt? Aside from what you see on the picture, what hole do you observe on the back of the shirt itself?

Dr. SHAW. On the back of the shirt itself there is a hole, a punched out area of the shirt which is a little more than a centimeter in its greater diameter. The whole shirt is soiled by brown stains which could have been due to blood.

Mr. SPECTER. How does the hole in the back of the shirt correspond with the wound on the Governor's back?

Dr. SHAW. It does correspond exactly.

Mr. SPECTER. Now turning the same shirt over to the front side, I ask you if the photograph, marked "Commission Exhibit No. 386," is a picture of the front side of this shirt?

Dr. SHAW. It is.

Mr. SPECTER. What does the picture of the shirt show with respect to a hole, if any, on the right side of the front of the shirt?

Dr. SHAW. The picture and the shirt show on the right side a much larger rent in the garment with the rent being approximately 4 centimeters in its largest diameter.

Mr. SPECTER. What wound, if any, did the Governor sustain on his thigh, Dr. Shaw?

Mr. DULLES. Just one moment, are you leaving this?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. I wonder whether or not it would not be desirable for the doctor to put on this photograph where these holes are, because they are not at all clear for the future if we want to study those photographs.

Dr. SHAW. This one is not so hard.

Mr. DULLES. That one appears but the other one doesn't appear and I think it would be very helpful.

Dr. SHAW. How would you like to have me outline this?

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Mr. SPECTER. Draw a red circle of what you conceive to be the hole there, Doctor.

Mr. DULLES. The actual hole is not nearly as big as your circle, it is the darkened area inside that circle, is it not?

Dr. SHAW. Yes; the darkened area is enclosed by the circle.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you able to note on the photograph of the back of the shirt, 685?

Will you draw a red circle around the area of the hole on the photograph then, Dr. Shaw?

Mr. DULLES. Would you just initial those two circles, if you can.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw, what wounds, if any, did the Governor sustain on his left thigh?

Dr. SHAW. He sustained a small puncture-type wound on the medial aspect of the left thigh.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have an opportunity to examine that closely?

Dr. SHAW. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have an opportunity to examine it sufficiently to ascertain its location on the left thigh?

Dr. SHAW. No; I didn't examine it that closely, except for its general location.

Mr. SPECTER. Where was it with respect to a general location then on the Governor's thigh?

Dr. SHAW. It is on the medial anterior aspect of the thigh.

Mr. DULLES. Nontechnically, what does it mean?

Dr. SHAW. Well, above, slightly above, between, in other words, the medial aspect would be the aspect toward the middle of the body, but as far as being how many centimeters or inches it is from the knee and the groin, I am not absolutely sure.

Mr. SPECTER. I now show you a pair of trousers which we shall later identify as being those worn by the Governor. I will, first of all, ask you if a photograph bearing Commission Exhibit No. 687 is a picture of those trousers?

Dr. SHAW. It is.

Mr. SPECTER. And what hole, if any did you observe on the trousers and on the picture of the trousers?

Dr. SHAW. There is a hole in the garment that has been made by some instrument which has carried away a part of the Governor's garment. In other words, it is not a tear but is a punched out hole, and this is approximately 4 centimeters on the inner aspect from the crease of the trousers.

Mr. DULLES. Can you tell where the knee is there and how far above the knee approximately?

Dr. SHAW. I can't tell exactly.

Mr. DULLES. I guess you can't tell.

Dr. SHAW. From the crotch I would say it would be slightly, it is a little hard to tell, slightly more toward the knee than the groin.

Mr. SPECTER. Does that hole in the left leg of the trousers match up to the wound on the left thigh of the Governor?

Dr. SHAW. To the best of my recollection it does.

Mr. DULLES. Are there any other perforations in these trousers at all, any other holes?

Dr. SHAW. No.

Mr. DULLES. So that means that whatever made the hole on the front side did not come through and make a hole anywhere else in the trousers?

Dr. SHAW. That is correct. It had to be a penetrating wound and not a perforating wound, it didn't go on through.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you turn those trousers over, Dr. Shaw?

Dr. SHAW. I believe we had already looked at it.

Mr. SPECTER. On the reverse side, and state whether or not this picture bearing Commission Exhibit No. 688 accurately depicts the reverse side of the trousers?

Dr. SHAW. Yes; it does.

Mr. SPECTER. Is there any hole shown either on the picture or on the trousers themselves?

Dr. SHAW. No.

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Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw, I now show you a body diagram which is marked "Commission Exhibit No. 689."

Senator COOPER. May I ask a question before you ask that question?

When you first saw Governor Connally in the emergency room was he dressed or undressed?

Dr. SHAW. His trousers were still on. He had his shorts on, I should say, Senator Cooper, but his coat, shirt, and trousers had been removed.

Mr. SPECTER. Were his clothes anywhere in the vicinity where you could have seen them?

Dr. SHAW. No; I never saw them. This is the first time that I saw them.

Mr. SPECTER. That is earlier today when you examined them in this room?

Dr. SHAW. That is Correct.

Mr. SPECTER. Looking at Commission Exhibit No. 689, is that a drawing which was prepared, after consultation with you, representing the earlier theory of all of the Governor's wounds having been inflicted by a single missile?

Dr. SHAW. That is Correct.

Mr. SPECTER. With reference to that diagram, would you explain the position that you had earlier thought the Governor to have been in when he was wounded here?

Dr. SHAW. We felt that the Governor was in an upright sitting position, and at the time of wounding was turning slightly to the right. This would bring the three wounds, as we know them, the wound in the chest, the wound in the wrist, and the wound in the thigh into a line assuming that the right forearm was held against the lower right chest in front.

The line of inclination of this particular diagram is a little more sharply downward than is probably correct in view of the inclination of the ribs of the chest.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you redraw that line, Dr. Shaw, to conform with what you believe to be----

Dr. SHAW. The fact that the muscle bundles on either side of the fifth rib were not damaged meant that the missile to strip away 10 centimeters of the rib had to follow this rib pretty much along its line of inclination.

Mr. DULLES. I wonder if you could use that red pencil to make it a little clearer for us?

Dr. SHAW. I think these would probably work well on this paper. Perhaps this isn't a tremendous paint but it slopes just a little too much.

Mr. SPECTER. You have initialed that to show your incline?

Dr. SHAW. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. With respect to the wound you described on the thigh, Dr. Shaw, was there any point of exit as to that wound?

Dr. SHAW. No.

Mr. SPECTER. I now show you----

Mr. DULLES. Could I ask one more question there, how deep was the wound of entry, could you tell at all?

Dr. SHAW. Mr. Dulles, I didn't examine the wound of the thigh so I can't testify as to that. Dr. Gregory, I think, was there at the time that the debris was carried out and he may have more knowledge than I have.

Mr. DULLES. We will hear Dr. Gregory later?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes; he is scheduled to testify as soon as Dr. Shaw concludes.

Dr. Shaw, I now show you Commission Exhibit 399 which has heretofore been identified as being a virtually whole bullet weighing 158 grains.

May I say for the record, that in the depositions which have been taken in Parkland Hospital, that we have ascertained, and those depositions are part of the overall record, that is the bullet which came from the stretcher of Governor Connally.

First, Dr. Shaw, have you had a chance to examine that bullet earlier today?

Dr. SHAW. Yes; I examined it this morning.

Mr. SPECTER. Is it possible that the bullet which went through the Governor's chest could have emerged being as fully intact as that bullet is?

Dr. SHAW. Yes; I believe it is possible because of the fact that the bullet

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struck the fifth rib at a very acute angle and struck a portion of the rib which would not offer a great amount of resistance.

Mr. SPECTER. Does that bullet appear to you to have any of its metal flaked off?

Dr. SHAW. I have been told that the one point on the nose of this bullet that is deformed was cut off for purposes of examination. With that information, I would have to say that this bullet has lost literally none of its substance.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, as to the wound on the thigh, could that bullet have gone into the Governor's thigh without causing any more damage than appears on the face of that bullet?

Dr. SHAW. If it was a spent bullet; yes. As far as the bullet is concerned it could have caused the Governor's thigh wound as a spent missile.

Mr. SPECTER. Why do you say it is a spent missile, would you elaborate on what your thinking is on that issue?

Dr. SHAW. Only from what I have been told by Dr. Shires and Dr. Gregory, that the depth of the wound was only into the subcutaneous tissue, not actually into the muscle of the leg, so it meant that missile had penetrated for a very short period. Am I quoting you correctly, Dr. Gregory?

Mr. SPECTER. May the record show Dr. Gregory is present during this testimony and----

Dr. GREGORY. I will say yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And indicates in the affirmative. Do you have sufficient knowledge of the wound of the wrist to render an opinion as to whether that bullet could have gone through Governor Connally's wrist and emerged being as much intact as it is?

Dr. SHAW. I do not.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw, assume if you will certain facts to be true in hpyothetical form, that is, that the President was struck in the upper portion of the back or lower portion of the neck with a 6.5-mm. missile passing between the strap muscles of the President's neck, proceeding through a facia channel striking no bones, not violating the pleural cavity, and emerging through the anterior third of the neck, with the missile having been fired from a weapon having a muzzle velocity of approximately 2,000 feet per second, with the muzzle being approximately 160 to 250 feet from the President's body; that the missile was a copper jacketed bullet. Would it be possible for that bullet to have then proceeded approximately 4 or 5 feet and then would it be possible for it to have struck Governor Connally in the back and have inflicted the wound which you have described on the posterior aspect of his chest, and also on the anterior aspect of his chest?

Dr. SHAW. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And what would your reason be for giving an affirmative answer to that question, Dr. Shaw?

Dr. SHAW. Because I would feel that a missile with this velocity and weight striking no more than the soft tissues of the neck would have adequate velocity and mass to inflict the wound that we found on the Governor's chest.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, without respect to whether or not the bullet identified as Commission Exhibit 399 is or is not the one which inflicted the wound on the Governor, is it possible that a missile similar to the one which I have just described in the hypothetical question could have inflicted all of the Governor's wounds in accordance with the theory which you have outlined on Commission Exhibit No. 689?

Dr. SHAW. Assuming that it also had passed through the President's neck you mean?

Mr. SPECTER. No; I had not added that factor in. I will in the next question.

Dr. SHAW. All right. As far as the wounds of the chest are concerned, I feel that this bullet could have inflicted those wounds. But the examination of the wrist both by X-ray and at the time of surgery showed some fragments of metal that make it difficult to believe that the same missile could have caused these two wounds. There seems to be more than three grains of metal missing as far as the I mean in the wrist.

Mr. SPECTER. Your answer there, though, depends upon the assumption that the bullet which we have identified as Exhibit 399 is the bullet which did the

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damage to the Governor. Aside from whether or not that is the bullet which inflicted the Governor's wounds.

Dr. SHAW. I see.

Mr. SPECTER. Could a bullet traveling in the path which I have described in the prior hypothetical question, have inflicted nil of the wounds on the Governor?

Dr. SHAW. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And so far as the velocity and the dimension of the bullet are concerned, is it possible that the same bullet could have gone through the President in the way that I have described and proceed through the Governor causing all of his wounds without regard to whether or not it was bullet 399?

Dr. SHAW. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. When you started to comment about it not being possible, was that in reference to the existing mass and shape of bullet 399?

Dr. SHAW. I thought you were referring directly to the bullet shown as Exhibit 399.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your opinion as to whether bullet 399 could have inflicted all of the wounds on the Governor, then, without respect at this point to the wound of the President's neck?

Dr. SHAW. I feel that there would be some difficulty in explaining all of the wounds as being inflicted by bullet Exhibit 399 without causing more in the way of loss of substance to the bullet or deformation of the bullet.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw, have you had an opportunity today here in the Cornmission building to view the movies which we referred to as the Zapruder movies and the slides taken from these movies?

Dr. SHAW. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And what, if any, light did those movies shed on your evaluation and opinions on this matter with respect to the wounds of the Governor?

Dr. SHAW. Well, my main interest was to try to place the time that the Governor was struck by the bullet which inflicted the wound on his chest in reference to the sequence of the three shots, as has been described to us.

(At this point the Chief Justice entered the hearing room.)

This meant trying to carefully examine the position of the Governor's body in the car so that it would fall in line with what we knew the trajectory must be for this bullet coming from the point where it has been indicated it did come from. And in trying to place this actual frame that these frames are numbered when the Governor was hit, my opinion was that it was frame number, let's see, I think it was No. 36.

Mr. SPECTER 236?

Dr. SHAW. 236, give or take 1 or 2 frames. It was right in 35, 36, 37, perhaps.

Mr. SPECTER. I have heretofore asked you questions about what possibly could have happened in terms of the various combinations of possibilities on missiles striking the Governor in relationship to striking the President as well. Do you have any opinion as to what, in fact, did happen?

Dr. SHAW. Yes. From the pictures, from the conversation with Governor Connally and Mrs. Connally, it seems that the first bullet hit the President in the shoulder and perforated the neck, but this was not the bullet that Governor Connally feels hit him; and in the sequence of films I think it is hard to say that the first bullet hit both of these men almost simultaneously.

Mr. SPECTER. Is that view based on the information which Governor Connally provided to you?

Dr. SHAW. Largely.

Mr. SPECTER. As opposed to any objectively determinable facts from the bullets, the situs of the wounds or your viewing of the pictures?

Dr. SHAW. Yes. I was influenced a great deal by what Governor Connally knew about his movements in the car at this particular time.

Mr. DULLES. You have indicated a certain angle of declination on this chart here which the Chief Justice has.

Dr. SHAW. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know enough about the angle of declination of the bullet that hit the President to Judge at all whether these two angles of declination are consistent?

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Dr. SHAW. We know that the angle of declination was a downward one from hack to front so that I think this is consistent with the angle of declination of the wound that the Governor sustained.

Senator COOPER. Are you speaking of the angle of declination in the President's body?

Dr. SHAW. Of the first wound?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes.

Dr. SHAW. First wound.

Mr. SPECTER. What you have actually seen from pictures to show the angle of declination?

Dr. SHAW. That is right.

Mr. SPECTER. In the wounds in the President's body?

Dr. SHAW. Yes; that is right. I did not examine the President.

Mr. DULLES. And that angle taking into account say the 4 feet difference between where the President was sitting and where the Governor was sitting, would be consistent with the point of entry of the Governor's body as you have shown it?

Dr. SHAW. The jump seat in the car, as we could see, placed the Governor sitting at a lower level than the President, and I think conceivably these two wounds could have been caused by the same bullet.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything else to add, Dr. Shaw, which you think would be helpful to the Commission in any way?

Dr. SHAW. I don't believe so Mr. Specter.

Mr. SPECTER. May it please the Commission then I would like to move into evidence Commission Exhibits Nos. 679 and 680, and then reserve Nos. 681 and 682 until we get the photographs of the X-rays and I now move for admission into evidence Commission Exhibits Nos. 683 through 689.

Senator COOPER. They have all been identified, have they?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes, sir; during the course of Dr. Shaw's testimony.

Senator COOPER. It is ordered then that these exhibits be received in the record.

(The documents referred to, previously identified as Commission Exhibits Nos. 679, 680, and 683-689 for identification were received in evidence.)

Mr. McCLOY. Just one or two questions. It is perfectly clear, Doctor, that the wound, the lethal wound on the President did not--the bullet that caused the lethal wound on the President, did not cause any wounds on Governor Connally, in your opinion?

Dr. SHAW. Mr. McCloy, I couldn't say that from my knowledge.

Mr. McCLOY. We are talking about the, following up what Mr. Dulles said about the angle of declination, the wound that came through the President's collar, you said was consistent between the same bullet. I just wondered whether under all the circumstances that you know about the President's head wound on the top that would also be consistent with a wound in Governor Connally's body?

Dr. SHAW. On the chest, yes; I am not so sure about the wrist. I can't quite place where his wrist was at the time his chest was struck.

Mr. McCLOY. Now perhaps this is Dr. Gregory's testimony, that is the full description of the wrist wound, that would be his rather than your testimony?

Dr. SHAW. I think he could throw just as much light on it as I could. And more in certain aspects.

Mr. McCLOY. It did hit bone?

Dr. SHAW. Obviously.

Mr. McCLOY. And there must have been a considerable diminution in the velocity of the bullet after penetrating through the wrist?

Dr. SHAW. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. The wound inflicted on it, the chest wound on Governor Connally, if you move that an inch or two, 1 inch or the other, could that have been lethal, go through an area that could easily have been lethal?

Dr. SHAW. Yes; of course, if it had been moved more medially it could have struck the heart and the great vessels.

Mr. McCLOY. Let me ask you this, Doctor, in your experience with gunshot wounds, is it possible for a man to be hit sometime before he realizes it?

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Dr. SHAW. Yes. There can be a delay in the sensory reaction.

Mr. McCLOY. Yes; so that a man can think as of a given instant he was not hit, and when actually he could have been hit.

Dr. SHAW. There can be an extending. sensation and then just a gradual building up of a feeling of severe injury.

Mr. McCLOY. But there could be a delay in any appreciable reaction between the time of the impact of the bullet and the occurrence?

Dr. SHAW. Yes; but in the case of a wound which strikes a bony substance such as a rib, usually the reaction is quite prompt.

Mr. McCLOY. Yes.

Dr. SHAW. Yes.

Mr. McCLOY. Now, you have indicated, I think, that this bullet traveled along, hit and traveled along the path of the rib, is that right?

Dr. SHAW. Yes.

Mr. McCLOY. Is it possible that it could have not, the actual bullet could not have hit the rib at all but it might have been the expanding flesh that would cause the wound or the proper contusion, I guess you would call it on the rib itself?

Dr. SHAW. I think we would have to postulate that the bullet hit the rib itself by the neat way in which it stripped the rib out without doing much damage to the muscles that lay on either side of it.

Mr. McCLOY. Was---up until you gave him the anesthetic--the Governor was fully conscious, was he?

Dr. SHAW. I would not say fully, but he was responsive. He would answer questions.

Mr. McCLOY. I think that is all I have.

The CHAIRMAN. I have no questions of the doctor.

Mr. DULLES. There were no questions put to him that were significant as far as our testimony is concerned?

Dr. SHAW. No; we really don't have to question him much. Our problem was pretty clearcut, and he told us it hurt and that was about his only response as far as----

Senator COOPER. Could I ask you a question, doctor?

I think you said from the time you came into the emergency room and the time you went to the operating room was about 5 minutes?

Dr. SHAW. Yes; it was just the time that it took to ask a few simple questions, what has been done so far, and has the operating room been alerted, and then I went out and talked to Mrs. Connally, just very briefly, I told her what the problem was in respect to the Governor and what we were going to have to do about it and she said to go ahead with anything that was necessary. So this couldn't have taken more than 5 minutes or so.

Mr. DULLES. Did he say anything or did anyone say anything there about the circumstances of the shooting?

Dr. SHAW. Not at that time.

Mr. DULLES. Either of Governor Connally or the President?

Dr. SHAW. Not at that time. All of our conversation was later.

Mr. DULLES. Was the President in the same room?

Dr. SHAW. No.

Mr. DULLES. Did you see him?

Dr. SHAW. I only saw his shoes and his feet. He was in the room immediately opposite. As I came into the hallway, I could recognize that the President was on it, in the room to my right. I knew that my problem was concerned with Governor Connally, and I turned and went into the room where I saw that he was.

Mr. DULLES. Did you hear at that time or have any knowledge, of a bullet which had been found on the stretcher?

Dr. SHAW. No; this was later knowledge.

Mr. DULLES. When did you first hear that?

(At this point Senator Russell entered the hearing room.)

Dr. SHAW. This information was first given to me by a man from the Secret Service who interviewed me in my office several weeks later. It is the first time I knew about any bullet being recovered.

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Senator COOPER. I think, of course, it is evident from your testimony you have had wide experience in chest wounds and bullet wounds in the chest.

What experience have you had in, say, the field of ballistics? Would this experience you have been dealing in chest wounds caused by bullets--have provided you knowledge also about the characteristics of missiles, particularly bullets of this type?

Dr. SHAW. No; Senator. I believe that my information about ballistics is just that of an average layman, no more. Perhaps a little more since I have seen deformed bullets from wounds, but I haven't gone into that aspect of wounds.

Senator COOPER. In the answers to the hypothetical questions that were addressed to you, based upon the only actual knowledge which you could base that answer, was the fact that you had performed the operation on the wound caused in the chest, on the wound in the chest?

Dr. SHAW. That is true. I have seen many bullets that have passed through bodies or have penetrated bodies and have struck bone and I know manners from which they are deformed but I know very little about the caliber of bullets, the velocity of bullets, many things that other people have much more knowledge of than I have.

Senator COOPER. That is all.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much, Dr. Shaw.

Dr. Charles Francis Gregory

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TESTIMONY OF DR. CHARLES FRANCIS GREGORY

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Dr. SHAW Volume VI

TESTIMONY OF DR. ROBERT SHAW

The testimony of Dr. Robert Shaw was taken at 6 p.m., on March 23, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that Dr. Robert Shaw is present, having responded to a request to have his deposition taken in connection with the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy, which is investigating all facts relating to the medical care of President Kennedy and Governor Connally, and Dr. Shaw has been requested to appear and testify concerning the treatment on Governor Connally.

Dr. Shaw, will you rise and raise your right hand, please.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give before the President's Commission in the course of this deposition proceeding will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Dr. SHAW. I do.

Mr. SPECTER Will you state your full name for the record, please?

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Dr. SHAW. Robert Roeder Shaw.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is your profession, sir?

Dr. SHAW. Physician and surgeon.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you outline briefly your educational background, please?

Dr. SHAW. I received my B.A. degree from the University of Michigan in 1927 and M.D. degree in 1933. My surgical training was obtained at Roosevelt Hospital in New York City, July 1934 to July 1936, and my training in thoracic surgery at the University Hospital, Ann Arbor, Mich, July 1936 to July 1938. Do you want me to say what happened subsequent to then ?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes; will you outline your medical career in brief form subsequent to that date, please?

Dr. SHAW. I entered private practice, limited to thoracic surgery, August 1, 1938. I have continuously practiced this specialty in Dallas, with the exception of the period from June 1942 to December 1945, when I was a member of the Medical Corps of the Army of the United States, serving almost all of this period in the European theatre of operations. I was again absent from Dallas from December 1961 until June 1963, when I headed the medico team and performed surgery at the Avicenna Hospital at Kabul, Afghanistan.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you Board certified, Dr. Shaw?

Dr. SHAW. Yes. I am certified 'by the Board of Thoracic Surgery, date of certification--1948. At the present time I am professor of thoracic surgery and chairman of the division of thoracic surgery at the University of Texas, Southwestern Medical School.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to perform any medical care for President Kennedy on November 22, 1963?

Dr. SHAW. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to care for Governor Connally?

Dr. SHAW. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you relate the circumstances of your being called in to care for the Governor, please?

Dr. SHAW. I was returning to Parkland Hospital and the medical school from a conference I had attended at Woodlawn Hospital, which is approximately a mile away, when I saw an open limousine going past the intersection of Industrial Boulevard and Harry Hines Boulevard under police escort. As soon as traffic had cleared, I proceeded on to the medical school. On the car radio I heard that the President had been shot at while riding in the motorcade. Upon entering the medical school, a medical student came in and joined three other medical students. He stated that President Kennedy had been brought in dead on arrival to the emergency room of Parkland Hospital and that Governor Connally had been shot through the chest. Upon hearing this, I proceeded immediately to the emergency room of the hospital and arrived at the emergency room approximately 5 minutes after the President and Governor Connally had arrived.

Mr. SPECTER. Where did you find Governor Connally at that time, Dr. Shaw?

Dr. SHAW. I found Governor Connally lying on a stretcher in emergency room No. 2. In attendance were several men, Dr. James Duke, Dr. David Mebane, Dr. Giesecke, an anesthesiologist. As emergency measures, the open wound on the Governor's right chest had been covered with. a heavy dressing and manual pressure was being applied. A drainage tube had been inserted into the second interspace in the anterior portion of the right chest and connected to a water-sealed bottle to bring about partial reexpansion of the collapsed right lung. An intravenous needle had been inserted into a vein in the left arm and intravenous fluid was running.

I was informed by Dr. Duke that blood had already been drawn and sent to the laboratory to be crossmatched with 4 pints of blood to be available at surgery. He also stated that the operating room had been alerted and that they were merely waiting for my arrival to take the Governor to surgery, since it was obvious that the wound would have to be debrided and closed.

Mr..SPECTER. At what time did the operation actually start, Dr. Shaw?

Dr. SHAW. That, I would have to refresh my memory on that--now, this, of course--the point he began the anesthesia--that would be about right--but I have to refresh my memory.

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Mr. SPECTER. Permit me to make available on the record for you the operative record which has been heretofore marked as Commission Exhibit No. 392, with the exhibit consisting of the recorded of Parkland Hospital on President Kennedy as well as Governor Connally and I call your attention to a 2-page report which bears your name as the surgeon, under date of November 22, 1963, of thoracic surgery for Governor Connally, and, first, I ask you if in fact this report was prepared by you?

Dr. SHAW. It was.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, with that report, is your recollection refreshed as to the starting time of the operation on Governor Connally's chest?

Dr. SHAW. Yes; the anesthesia was begun at 1300 hours.

Mr. SPECTER. Which would be 1 p.m. ?

Dr. SHAW. 1 p.m., and the actual incision was made at 1335 or 1:35 p.m.

Mr. SPECTER. And what time did that operation conclude?

Dr. SHAW. My operation was completed at 1520 hours, or 3:20.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe Governor Connally's condition, Dr. Shaw, directing your attention first to the wound on his back?

Dr. SHAW. When Governor Connally was examined,, it was found that there was a small wound of entrance, roughly elliptical in shape, and approximately a cm. and a half in its longest diameter, in the right posterior shoulder, which is medial to the fold of the axilla.

Mr. SPECTER. What is the axilla, in lay language, Dr Shaw?

Dr. SHAW. The arm pit.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw, will you describe next the wound of exit?

Dr. SHAW. Yes; the wound of exit was below and slightly medial to the nipple on the anterior right chest. It was a round, ragged wound, approximately 5 cm. in diameter. This wound had obviously torn the pleura, since it was a sucking wound, allowing air to pass to and fro between the pleura cavity and the outside of the body.

Mr. SPECTER Define the pleura, please. Doctor, in lay language.

Dr. SHAW. The pleura is the lining of the chest cavity with one layer of pleura, the parietal pleura lining the inside of the chest wall, diaphragm and the mediastinum, which is the compartment of the body containing the heart, its pericardial sac, and great vessels.

Mr. SPECTER. What were the characteristics of these two bullet wounds which led you to believe that one was a wound of entry and one was a wound of exit, Dr Shaw?

Dr. SHAW. The wound of entrance is almost invariably the smaller wound, since it perforates the skin and makes a wound approximately or slightly larger than the missile. The wound of exit, especially if it has shattered any bony material in the body, will be the larger of the wounds.

Mr. SPECTER. What experience, Doctor, have you had, if any, in evaluating gunshot wounds?

Dr. SHAW. I have had considerable experience with gunshot wounds and wounds due to missiles because of my war experience. This experience was not only during the almost 2 years in England, but during the time that I was head of the Thoracic Center in Paris, France, for a period of approximately a year.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you be able to give an approximation of the total number of bullet wounds you have had occasion to observe and treat?

Dr. SHAW. Considering the war experience and the addition of wounds seen in civilian practice, it probably would number well over a thousand, since we had over 900 admissions to the hospital in Paris.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the line of trajectory, Dr. Shaw, between the point in the back of the Governor and the point in the front of the Governor, where the bullet wounds were observed?

Dr. SHAW. Considering the wound of entrance and the wound of exit, the trajectory of the bullet was obliquely downward, considering the fact that the Governor was in a sitting position at the time of wounding.

Mr. SPECTER. As an illustrative guide here, Dr. Shaw--

Dr. SHAW. May I add one sentence there?

Mr. SPECTER. Please do.

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Dr. SHAW. The bullet, in passing through the Governor's chest wall struck the fifth rib at its midpoint and roughly followed the slanting direction of the fifth rib, shattering approximately 10 cm. of the rib. The intercostal muscle bundle above the fifth rib and below the fifth rib were surprisingly spared from injury by the shattering of the rib, which again establishes the trajectory of the bullet.

Mr. SPECTER. Would the shattering of the rib have had any effect in deflecting the path of the bullet from a straight line?

Dr. SHAW. It could have, except that in the case of this injury, the rib was obviously struck so that not too dense cancellus portion of the rib in this position was carried away by the bullet and probably there was very little in the way of deflection.

Mr. SPECTER At this time, Dr. Shaw,. I would like to call your attention to an exhibit which we have already had marked as Dr. Gregory's Exhibit No. 1, because we have used this in the course of his deposition earlier today and this is a body diagram, and I ask you, first of all, looking at Diagram No. 1, to comment as to whether the point of entry marked on the right shoulder of Governor Connally is accurate?

Dr. SHAW. Yes. The point of entry as marked on this exhibit I consider to be quite accurate.

Mr. SPECTER. Is the size and dimension of the hole accurate on scale, or would you care to make any adjustment or modification in that characterization by picture?

Dr. SHAW. As the wound entry is marked on this figure, I would say that the scale is larger than the actual wound or the actual depicting of the wound should be. As I described it, it was approximately a centimeter and a half in length.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you draw, Dr. Shaw, right above the shoulder as best you can recollect, what that wound of entry appeared at the time you first observed it? Would you put your initials right beside that?

(The witness, Dr. Shaw, complied with the request of Counsel Specter.)

Mr. SPECTER. Now, directing your attention to the figure right beside, showing the front view, does the point of exit on the lower chest of the figure there correspond with the point of exit on the body of Governor Connally?

Dr. SHAW. Yes; I would say that it conforms in every way except that it was a little nearer to the right nipple than depicted here. Off the record, just a minute.

(Discussion between Counsel Specter and the witness, Dr. Shaw, off the record. )

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw, in our off-the-record conversation, you called my attention to your thought that the nipple line is incorrectly depicted on that figure, would you, therefore, in ink mark on there the nipple line which would be more accurate proportionately to that body?

Dr. SHAW. Yes; I feel the nipple line as shown on this figure is a little high and should be placed at a lower point on the body, which would bring the wound of exit, which I feel is in the proper position, more in line with the actual position of the nipple.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, with the wound of exit as it is shown there, does that correspond in position with the actual situation on Governor Connally's body as you have redrawn the proportion to the nipple line?

Dr. SHAW. It does.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you put an "X" through the old nipple line so we have obscured that and put your initials beside those two marks, if you would, please?

Dr. SHAW. By the "X-1"?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes, please.

(The witness, Dr. Shaw, complied with request of Counsel Specter in drawing on the figure heretofore mentioned. )

Mr. SPECTER. Now, as to the proportion of the hole depicting the point of exit, is that correct with respect to characterizing the situation on Governor Connally?

Dr. SHAW. It is, and corresponds with the relative size of the two wounds as I have shown on the other figure.

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Mr. SPECTER. Would you at this time, right above the right shoulder there, draw the appearances of the point of exit as nearly as you can recollect it on Governor Connally?

Dr. SHAW. This is right.

Mr. SPECTER You say the hole which appears on Governor Connally is just about the size that it would have been on his body?

Dr. SHAW. Yes; it is drawn in good scale.

Mr. SPECTER In good scale to the body?

Dr. SHAW. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you draw it on another portion of the paper here in of its absolute size?

Dr. SHAW. Five cm. it would be about like that--do you want me to mark that?

Mr. SPECTER. Put your initials right in the center of that circle.

Dr. SHAW. I'll just put "wound of exit."

Mr. SPECTER Fine--just put "wound of exit--actual size" and put your initials under it.

(The witness, Dr. Shaw, complied with request of Counsel Specter.)

Mr. SPECTER. Let the record show that Dr. Shaw has marked "wound of exit--actual size" with his initials R.R.S. on the diagram 1.

Now, looking at diagram 2, Dr. Shaw, does the angle of declination on the figure correspond with the angle that the bullet passed through Governor Connally's chest?

Dr. SHAW. It does.

Mr. SPECTER. Is there any feature of diagram 3 which is useful in further elaborating that which you have commented about on diagram 1?

Dr. SHAW. No. Again off the record?

Mr. SPECTER All right, off the record.

(Discussion between Counsel Specter and the witness, Dr. Shaw, off the record.)

Mr. SPECTER. You have just commented off the record, Dr. Shaw, that the wound of entry is too large proportionately to the wound of exit, but aside from that, is there anything else on diagram 3 which will be helpful to us?

Dr. SHAW. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Is there anything else on diagram 4 which would be helpful by way of elaborating that which appeared on diagram 2?

Dr. SHAW. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Now as to the treatment or operative procedure which you performed on Governor Connally, would you now describe what you did for him?

Dr. SHAW. As soon as anesthesia had been established and an endotracheal tube was in place so that respiration could be controlled with positive pressure, the large occlusive dressing which had been applied in the emergency room was removed. This permitted better inspection of the wound of exit, air passed to and fro through the damaged chest wall, there was obvious softening of the bony framework of the chest wall as evidenced by exaggerated motion underneath the skin along the line of the trajectory of the missile.

The skin of the chest wall axilla and back were thoroughly cleaned and aseptic solution was applied for further cleaning of the skin, the whole area was draped so as to permit access to both the wound of exit and the entrance wound. Temporarily, the wound of entrance was covered with a sterile towel.

First an elliptical incision was made to remove the ragged edges of the wound of exit. This incision was then extended laterally and upward in a curved direction so as to not have the incision through the skin and subcutaneous tissue directly over the line of the trajectory of the bullet where the chest had been softened.

It was found that approximately 10 cm. of the fifth rib had been shattered and the rib fragments acting as secondary missiles had been the major contributing factor to the damage to the anterior chest wall and to the underlying lung.

Mr. SPECTER. What do you mean, Doctor, by the words "fragments acting as secondary missiles"?

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Dr. SHAW. When bone is struck by a high velocity missile it fragments and acts much like bowling pins when they are struck by a bowling ball--they fly in all directions.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you continue now and further describe the treatment which you performed?

Dr. SHAW. The bony fragments were removed along with all obviously damaged muscle. It was found that the fourth and fifth intercoastal muscle bundles were almost completely intact where the rib had been stripped out. There was damage to the latissimus dorsi muscle, but this was more in the way of laceration, so that the damage could be repaired by suture. The portion of parietal pleura which had not been torn by the injury was opened along the length of the resected, portion of the fifth rib. The jagged ends of the fifth rib were cleaned with a rongeur; approximately 200 cc. of clot and liquid blood was removed from the pleura cavity; inspection of the lung revealed that the middle lobe had a long tear which separated the lobe into approximately two equal segments. This tear extended up into the hilum of the lobe, but had not torn a major bronchus or a major blood vessel. The middle lobe was repaired with a running No. 3 O chromic gut approximating the tissue of the depths of the lobe, with two sutures, and then approximating the visceral pleura on both the medial and lateral surface with a running suture of the same material--same gut.

Upon repair of the lobe it expanded well upon pressure on the anesthetic bag with very little in the way of peripheral leak.

Attention was next turned to the lower lobe. There was a large hematoma in the anterior basal segment of the right lower lobe extending on into the median basal segment. At one point there was a laceration in the surface of the lobe approximating a centimeter in length, undoubtedly caused by one of the penetrating rib fragments. A single mattress suture No. 3 O chromic gut of an atromitac needle was used to close this laceration from which blood was oozing.

Next, the diaphragm and all parts of the right mediastinum was examined but no injury was found.

The portion of the drainage tube which had already been placed. in the second interspace in the anterior axillary line which protruded into the chest was cut away, since it was deemed to be longer than necessary. A second drainage tube was placed through a stab wound in the eighth interspace in the posterior axillary line and both of these tubes were connected to a water sealed bottle. The fourth and fifth intercoastal muscle bundles were then approximated with interrupted sutures of No. O chromic gut.

The remaining portion of the serratus anterior muscle was then approximated across the closure of the intercostal muscles. The laceration at the latissimus dorsi muscle was then approximated with No. O chromic guts suture. Before closing the skin and subcutaneous tissue a stab wound approximately 2 cm. in length was made near the lower tip of the right scapula and a latex rubber drain was drawn up through this stab wound to drain subscapular space. This drain was marked with a safety pin. The subcutaneous tissue was then closed with interrupted sutures of No. O chromic gut, inverting the knots. The skin was closed with interrupted vertical mattress sutures of black silk.

Attention was next turned to the wound of entrance. The skin surrounding the wound was removed in an elliptical fashion, enlarging the incision to approximately 3 cm. Examination of the depths of this wound reveal that the latissimus dorsi muscle alone was injured, and the latex rubber drain could be felt immediately below the laceration in the muscle. A single mattress suture was used to close the laceration in the muscle. The skin was then closed with interrupted vertical mattress sutures of black silk. The drainage tubes going into the pleura cavity were then secured with safety pins and adhesive tape and a dressing applied to the entire incision. This concluded the operation for the wound of the chest, and at this point Dr. Gregory and Dr. Shires entered the operating room to care for the wounds of the right wrist and left thigh.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe, Dr. Shaw, as to the wound of the right wrist?

Dr. SHAW. Well, I would have to say that my observations are probably not accurate. I knew that the wound of the wrist had fractured the lower end of

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the right radius and I saw one large wound on the I guess you would call it the volar surface of the right arm and a small wound on the dorsum of the right wrist.

Mr. SPECTER. Which appeared to you to be the point of entrance, Dr. Shaw?

Dr. SHAW. To me, I felt that the wound of entrance was the wound on the volar surface or the anterior surface with the hand held in the upright or the supine position, with the wound of exit being the small wound on the dorsum.

Mr. SPECTER. What were the characteristics of those wounds which led you to that conclusion?

Dr. SHAW. Although the wound of entrance, I mean, although the wound that I felt was a wound of entrance was the larger of the two, it was my feeling that considering the large wound of exit from the chest, that this was consistent with the wound that I saw on the wrist. May we go off the record?

Mr. SPECTER. Sure.

(Discussion between Counsel Specter and the witness. Dr. Shaw off the record.)

Mr. SPECTER Now, let's go back on the record.

Dr. SHAW. I'll start by saying that my examination of the wrist was a cursory one because I realized that Dr. Gregory was going to have the responsibility of doing what was necessary surgically for this wrist.

Mr. SPECTER. Had you conferred with him preliminarily to starting your operation on the chest so that you knew he would be standing by, I believe as you testified earlier, to perform the wrist operation?

Dr. SHAW. Yes--Dr. Gregory was in the hallway of the operating room before I went in to operate on Governor Connally and while I was scrubbing preparatory to the operation, I told him that there was a compound comminuted fracture of the radius of the Governor's right hand that would need his attention.

Mr. SPECTER. Let the record show that while we were off the record here a moment ago, Dr. Shaw, you and I were discussing the possible angles at which the Governor might have been sitting in relation to a trajectory of a bullet consistent with the observations which you recollect and consistent with what seems to have been a natural position for the Governor to have maintained, in the light of your view of the situation. And with that in mind, let me resume the questioning and put on the record very much of the comments and observations you were making as you and I were discussing off the record as this deposition has proceeded.

Now, you have described a larger wound on the volar or palm side of the wrist than was present on the dorsal or back side of the wrist, and you have expressed the opinion that it was the point of entry on the volar side of the wrist as opposed to a point of exit on the back side of the wrist, even though as you earlier said, ordinarily the point of entry is smaller and the point of exit is larger.

Now, will you repeat for the record, Dr. Shaw, the thinking--your thinking which might explain a larger point of entry and a smaller point of exit on the wrist.

Dr. SHAW. Yes. As a matter of fact, when I first examined Governor Connally's wrist, I did not notice the small wound on the dorsum of the wrist and only saw the much larger wound on the radial side of the volar surface of the wrist. I didn't know about the second small wound until I came in when Dr. Gregory was concluding his operation on the wrist. He informed me that there was another small wound through the skin through which a missile had obviously passed.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, which wound was that, Dr. Shaw?

Dr. SHAW. This was the wound on the dorsum or the dorsal surface of the wrist.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you then observe that wound?

Dr. SHAW. Yes; I saw this wound.

Mr. SPECTER. And where was that wound located to the best of your recollection ?

Dr. SHAW. This wound was slightly more distal on the arm than the larger wound and located almost in the midportion of the dorsum of the wrist.

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Mr. SPECTER. Would that correspond with this location which I read from Dr. Gregory's report on the dorsal aspect of the right wrist over the junction of the distal fourth of the radius and shaft approximately 2 cm. in length.

Dr. SHAW. The wound was approximately 2 cm. in length?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes; would that correspond with the wound which you observed?

Dr. SHAW. Yes; I saw it at the time that he was closing it and that would correspond with the wound I observed.

Mr. SPECTER. He has described that as what he concluded to be the wound of entry on the dorsal aspect of the right wrist, but your thought was that perhaps that was the wound of exit?

Dr. SHAW. Yes; in trying to reconstruct the position of Governor Connally's body, sitting in the jump seat of the limousine, and the attitude that he would assume in turning to the right--this motion would naturally bring the polar surface of the right wrist in contact with the anterior portion of the right chest.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, is your principal reason for thinking that the wound on the dorsal aspect is a wound of exit rather than a wound of entry because of what you consider to be the awkward position in having the dorsal aspect of the wrist either pointing upward or toward the chest?

Dr. SHAW. Yes, I think I am influenced a great deal by the fact that in trying to assume this position, I can't comfortably turn my arm into a position that would explain the wound of the dorsal surface of the wrist as a wound of entrance, knowing where the missile came out of the chest and assuming that one missile caused both the chest wound and the arm wound.

Mr. SPECTER. Might not then that conclusion be affected if you discard the assumption that one missile caused all the wounds?

Dr. SHAW. Yes, if two missiles struck the Governor, then it would not be necessary to assume that the larger wound is the wound of entrance.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, would not another explanation for the presence of a wound on the dorsal aspect of the wrist be if the Governor were sitting in an upright position on the jump seat with his arm resting either on an arm rest inside the ear or on a window of the ear with the elbow protruding outward, and as he turned around, turning in a rotary motion, his wrist somewhat toward his body so that it was present in an angle of approximately 45 degrees to his body, being slightly moving toward his body.

Dr. SHAW. Well, I myself, am not able to get my arm into that position. If the wound, as I assume to be in the midportion of the forearm here and the wound of exit would be here (illustrating) I can't get my arm into that position as to correspond to what we know about the trajectory of the bullet into the chest.

Mr. SPECTER. Assuming that the bullet through the chest then also went

through the wrist?

Dr. SHAW. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, aside from the trajectory and the explanation of one bullet causing all the damage and focusing just on the nature of the wound on the wrist, what conclusion would you reach as to which was the point of entrance and which was the point of exit?

Dr. SHAW. I would feel that the wound on the polar surface of the wrist was the wound of entrance and that perhaps the bullet being partially spent by its passage through the chest wall, struck the radius, fragmenting it, but didn't pass through the wrist, and perhaps tumbled out into the clothing of Governor Connally with only a small fragment of this bullet passing on through the wrist to go out into the left thigh.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, would that be consistent with a fragment passing through the wrist which was so small that virtually the entire missile, or 158 grains of it, would remain in the central missile?

Dr. SHAW. Yes. The wound on the volar surface, I'm sorry, on the dorsum of the wrist and the wound in the thigh which was obviously a wound of entrance, since the fragment is still within the thigh, were not too dissimilar in size.

Mr. SPECTER. Was the wound in the thigh itself, that is, aside from the size

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of the fragment which remains in the leg, as small as the hole on the dorsal aspect of the wrist?

Dr. SHAW. My memory is that the wound in the thigh through the skin was about the same as the wound on the skin of the dorsum of the wrist, but I didn't make an accurate observation at the time.

Mr. SPECTER. Would your thinking on that be affected any if I informed you that Dr. Shires was of the view and bad the recollection that the wound on the thigh was much larger than a hole accounted for by the size of fragments which remained in the femur.

Dr. SHAW. Of course, Dr. Shires actually treated and closed this wound, but since this wound was made through the skin in a tangential manner--

Mr. SPECTER. Now, you are referring to the wound of the thigh?

Dr. SHAW. I am referring to the wound of the thigh--was made in a tangential manner, it did not go in at a direct right angle, the slit in the skin in the thigh could be considerably longer than the actual size of the missile itself, because this is a sharp fragment that would make a cutting--it would cause a laceration rather than a puncture wound.

Mr. SPECTER. So, the hole in the thigh would be consistent with a very small fragment in the femur?

Dr. SHAW. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, a moment ago I asked you what would be your opinion as to the point of entry and the point of exit based solely on the appearances of the holes on the dorsal and volar aspects of the wrist, and you responded that you still thought, or that you did think that the volar aspect was the point of entry with the additional thought that the missile might not have gone through the wrist, but only a fraction having gone through the wrist--now, my question is in giving that answer, did you consider at that time the hypothesis that the wound on the wrist was caused by the same missile which went through the Governor's chest, or was that answer solely in response to the characteristics of the wound on the wrist alone?

Dr. SHAW. I have always felt that the wounds of Governor Connally could be explained by the passage of one missile through his chest, striking his wrist and a fragment of it going on into his left thigh. I had never entertained the idea that he had been struck by a second missile.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, focusing for just a minute on the limited 'question of the physical characteristics of the wounds on the wrist, .if you had that and nothing more in this case to go on, what would your opinion be as to which point was entry and which point was exit?

Dr. SHAW. Ordinarily, we usually find the wound of entrance is smaller than the wound of exit. In the Governor's wound on the wrist, however, if the wound on the dorsum of the wrist is the wound of entrance, and this large missile passed directly through his radius, I'm not clear as to why there was not a larger wound of exit than there was.

Mr. SPECTER You mean on the volar aspect?

Dr. SHAW. Yes; if a whole bullet hit here

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating the dorsal aspect?

Dr. SHAW. Yes; and came out through here, why it didn't carry more bone out through the wrist than it did, and the bone was left in the wrist--the bone did not come out. In other words, when it struck the fifth rib it made a hole this big around (indicating) in the chest in carrying bone fragments out through the chest wall.

Mr. SPECTER. Wouldn't that same question arise if it went through the volar aspect and exited through the dorsal aspect?

Dr. SHAW. It wouldn't if you postulated that the bullet did not pass through the wrist, but struck the wrist.

Mr. SPECTER. That would be present in either event, though, if you postulated if the bullet struck the dorsal aspect of the wrist, and did not pass through, but only a missile passed through the volar aspect.

Dr. SHAW. Yes; in that case, however, considering the wound of exit from the chest, and if that same bullet went on through the wrist, I would still expect a pretty good wound of entrance.

Mr. SPECTER. You see, I am trying now, Dr. Shaw, to disassociate the thought

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that this is the same missile, so that I'm trying to look at it just from the physical characteristics of the appearance of the wounds on the two sides of the wrist.

Dr. SHAW. May we go off the record just a minute?

Mr. SPECTER. Sure off the record.

(Discussion between Counsel Specter and the witness, Dr. Shaw, off the record.)

Mr. SPECTER. Let us go back on the record and let the record reflect that we have been discussing another aspect concerning Dr. Shaw's thought that if the main missile had gone through the entire radius, that there would have been more damage, presumably, to the arteries and tendons on the underside of the wrist, and I then called Dr. Shaw's attention to one additional factor in Dr. Gregory's testimony which is reflected in his report that "on the radial' side of the arm, small fine bits of cloth consistent with fine bits of mohair were found," which was one of the reasons for Dr. Gregory's thinking that the path was from the dorsal

aspect to the volar aspect.

Dr. SHAW. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And Dr. Shaw's reply, if this is correct, Doctor, that you would know of no readily available explanation for that factor in the situation?

Dr. SHAW. Except that it might have been carried by the small fragment which obviously passed through the wrist and attached to that.

Mr. SPECTER. But could the fragment have carried it from the radial side on it if it had been traveling from the volar side to the radial side ?

Dr. SHAW. Yes; it could have carried it through. and deposited it on the way through.

Mr. SPECTER. I see, so it might have started. on the volar aspect and could have gone on through.

Dr. SHAW. You know, if we could get that suit of his, it would help a lot.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, we are going to examine clothing if at all possible.

Dr. SHAW. Because, I think it would have been almost impossible I think if you examine the clothing and if you had a hole here in his coat and no hole on this side----

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating a hole on the femur side----

Dr. SHAW. That would almost clear that thing up.

Mr. SPECTER. Yes; it would be very informational in our analysis of the situation.

Dr. SHAW. I doubt if there is a hole in both sides of the sleeve---the sleeve wouldn't be quite that long, I don't think.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw, my next question involves whether you have ever had a conversation with Governor Connally about the sequence of events of the day he was shot?

Dr. SHAW. Yes, we have talked on more than one occasion about this. The Governor admits that certain aspects of the whole incident are a bit hazy. He remembers hearing a shot. He recognized it as a rifle shot and turned to the right to see whether President Kennedy had been injured. He recognized that the President had been injured, but almost immediately, he stated, that he felt a severe shock to his right chest. He immediately experienced some difficulty in breathing, and as he stated to me, he thought that he had received a mortal wound.

Mr. SPECTER. Did he tell you why he thought the wound was mortal?

Dr. SHAW. He just knew that he was badly hit, as he expressed it.

Mr. SPECTER. Did he comment on whether or not he heard a second shot before he felt this wound in his chest?

Dr. SHAW. He says that he did not hear a second shot, but did hear---no, wait a minute, I shouldn't say that. He heard only two shots so that he doesn't know which shot other than the first one he did not hear. He only remembers hearing two shots, his wife says distinctly she heard three.

Mr. SPECTER. Mrs. Connally said she heard three?

Dr. SHAW. Mrs. Connally distinctly remembered three shots.

Mr. SPECTER. And, Governor Connally said he heard two shots?

Dr. SHAW. Two shots.

Mr. SPECTER. Would that not be consistent with a situation where he was hit by the second shot and lost consciousness?

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Dr. SHAW. Yes; the shock of the wounding might have prevented him from hearing the rifle report.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you have expected him to hear a third shot after he was wounded by a second shot?

Dr. SHAW. He didn't lose consciousness at that time, although he said he did lose consciousness during a part of the trip from the point of wounding to the hospital.

Mr. SPECTER. Did Governor Connally tell you whether or not he heard President Kennedy say anything?

Dr. SHAW. He said that all he heard was the President say, "Oh," that's the only thing he told me.

Mr. SPECTER. Did Mrs. Connally state whether or not she heard the President say anything?

Dr. SHAW. My memory isn't good for that. I don't remember what Mrs. Connally told me on that.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you continuing to treat Governor Connally at the present time?

Dr. SHAW. Yes, although the treatment of the chest is practically at an end, because the chest has reached a satisfactory state of healing.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you continue to treat the Governor all during his stay at Parkland Hospital ?

Dr. SHAW. Yes, I attended him several times daily.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw, would you think it consistent with the facts that you know as to Governor Connally's wounds that he could have been struck by the same bullet which passed through President Kennedy, assuming that a missile with the muzzle velocity of 2,000 feet per second, a 6.5-millimeter bullet, passed through President Kennedy at a distance of 160 to 250 feet from the rifle, passing through President Kennedy's body, entering on his back and striking only soft tissue and exiting on his neck; could that missile have also gone through Governor Connally's chest in your opinion ?

Dr. SHAW. Yes, taking your description of the first wound sustained by the President, which I, myself, did not observe, and considering the position of the two men in the limousine, I think it would be perfectly possible for the first bullet to have passed through the soft tissues of the neck of President Kennedy and produced the wounds that we found on Governor Connally.

Mr. SPECTER. Could that bullet then have produced all the wounds that you found on Governor Connally ?

Dr. SHAW. Yes, I would still be postulating that Governor Connally was struck by one missile.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, as you sit here at the moment on your postulation that Governor Connally was struck by one missile, is that in a way which is depicted by diagram No. 5 on the exhibit heretofore marked as "Dr. Gregory's Exhibit No. 1?"

Dr. SHAW. Yes; I feel that the line of trajectory as marked on this diagram is accurate as it could be placed from my memory of this wound.

Mr. SPECTER. And, on that trajectory;, how do you postulate the bullet then passed through the wrist from dorsal to volar or from volar to dorsal?

Dr. SHAW. My postulation would be from volar to dorsal.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, then, going back to diagram No. 1, Dr. Shaw, there is one factor that we did not call your attention to or have you testify about, and that is--the marking that the exit is on the volar side and the entry is on the dorsal side as it was remarked by Dr. Gregory, that would then be inconsistent of your view of the situation, would it not?

Dr. SHAW. Yes, it would be.

Mr. SPECTER. And similarly on diagram No. 3, where the exit is marked on the volar, and the entry is marked on the dorsal, that would also be inconsistent with your view of the situation ?

Dr. SHAW. Yes---he has the wound on the back being quite a bit larger than the wound on the front here, doesn't he?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes, the wound as it appears here on the diagram is larger.

Dr. SHAW. That wasn't my memory.

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Mr. SPECTER. But I don't think that that is necessarily as to scale in this situation. Would it be possible from your knowledge of the facts here, Dr. Shaw, that President Kennedy might have been struck by the bullet passing through him, hitting nothing but soft tissues, and that bullet could have passed through Governor Connally's chest and a second bullet might have struck Governor Connally's wrist?

Dr. SHAW. Yes; this is a perfectly tenable theory.

Mr. SPECTER. And, then, the damage to Governor Connally's thigh might have come from either of the bullets which passed through the chest or a second bullet which struck the wrist?

Dr. SHAW. That is true as far as the wounds are concerned, this theory, I feel, is tenable. It doesn't conform to the description of the sequence of the events as described by Mrs. Connally.

Mr. SPECTER. In what respect Dr. Shaw?

Dr. SHAW. Well she feels that the Governor was only struck by one bullet.

Mr. SPECTER. Why does she feel that way; do you know, sir?

Dr. SHAW. As soon as he was struck she pushed him to the bottom of the car and got on top of him and it would mean that there would be a period well if there were 5 1/2 seconds between the three shots, there would be a couple seconds there that would have given her time to get him down into the car, and as she describes the sequence, it is hard to see how he could have been struck by a second bullet.

Mr. SPECTER. If she pushed him down immediately after he was shot on the first occasion?

Dr. SHAW. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. But if her reaction was not that fast so that he was struck twice, of course then there would be a different situation, depending entirely on how fast she reacted.

Dr. SHAW. I think if he had been struck first in the wrist and not struck in the chest, he would have known that. He only remembers the hard blow to the back of his chest and doesn't remember being struck in the wrist at all.

Mr. SPECTER. Might he not have been struck in the chest first and struck by a subsequent shot in the wrist?

Dr. SHAW. Yes; but that's hard to postulate if he was down in the bottom of the car.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw, have you been interviewed by any representatives of

the Federal Government prior to today?

Dr. SHAW. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And who talked to you about this case?

Dr. SHAW. I don't have his name. I perhaps could find it. It was a member of the Secret Service.

Mr. SPECTER. On how many occasions were you talked to by a Secret Service man?

Dr. SHAW. Once.

Mr. SPECTER. And what did you tell him?

Dr. SHAW. I told him approximately the same that has been told in this transcript.

Mr. SPECTER. And prior to the time we started to go on the record with the court reporter taking this down verbatim, did you and I have a discussion bout the purpose of the deposition and the questions that I would ask you?

Dr. SHAW. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And were the answers which you provided me at that time the same as those which you have testified to on the record here this afternoon?

Dr. SHAW. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any other written record of the operation on Governor Connally other than that which has been identified here in Commission Exhibit No. 392?

Dr. SHAW. No; this is a copy of the operative record that went on to the chart of Governor Connally which is in the possession of the record room of Parkland Hospital.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything else which you could tell us which you think might be helpful to the Commission in any way, Dr. Shaw?

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Dr. SHAW. No; I believe that we have covered all of the points that are germane to this incident. Anything else that I would have would actually be hearsay.

Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much, sir, for appearing.

Dr. SHAW. All right, you are welcome.

Mr. SPECTER. Off the record.

(Discussion between Counsel Specter and the witness, Dr. Shaw, off the record.)

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw, permit me to ask you one or two more questions. Did you find any bullets in Governor Connally's body?

Dr. SHAW. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you find any fragments of bullets in his chest?

Dr. SHAW. No; only fragments of shattered rib.

Mr. SPECTER. And did you find, or do you know whether any fragment was found in his wrist or the quantity of fragments in his wrist?

Dr. SHAW. It is my understanding that only foreign material from the suit of Governor Connally was found in the wrist, although in the X-ray of the wrist there appeared to be some minute metallic fragments in the wrist.

Mr. SPECTER. As to the wound on the back of Governor Connally, was there any indication that the bullet was tumbling prior to the time it struck him?

Dr. SHAW. I would only have to say that I'm not a ballistics expert, but the wound on his chest was not a single puncture wound, it was long enough so that there might have been some tumbling.

Mr. SPECTER. You mean the wound on his back?

Dr. SHAW. The wound on his back--yes, it was long enough so that there might have been some tumbling. In other words, it was not a spherical puncture wound.

Mr. SPECTER. So it might have had some tumbling involved, or it might not have?

Dr. SHAW. Yes; I don't know whether the clothes would have occasioned this or not.

Mr. SPECTER. My question would be that perhaps some tumbling might have been involved as a result of decrease in velocity as the bullet passed through President Kennedy, whether there was any indication from the surface of the wound which would indicate tumbling.

Dr. SHAW. The wound entrance was an elliptical wound. In other words, it had a long diameter and a short diameter. It didn't have the appearance of a wound caused by a high velocity bullet that had not struck anything else; in other words, a puncture wound. Now, you have to also take into consideration, however, whether the bullet enters at a right angle or at a tangent. If it enters at a tangent there will be some length to the wound of entrance.

Mr. SPECTER. So, would you say in net that there could have been some tumbling occasioned by having it pass through another body or perhaps the oblique character of entry might have been occasioned by the angle of entry.

Dr. SHAW. Yes; either would have explained a wound of entry.

Mr. SPECTER. Fine, thank you very much, Doctor.

Dr. SHAW. Thank you.

Dr. Charles Francis Gregory

Page 95

TESTIMONY OF DR. CHARLES FRANCIS GREGORY

Dr. Shaw Volume IV page 113.

Mr. SPECTER. No; I had not added that factor in. I will in the next question.

Mr. SPECTER. Your answer there, though, depends upon the assumption that the bullet which we have identified as Exhibit 399 is the bullet which did the

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This meant trying to carefully examine the position of the Governor's body in the car so that it would fall in line with what we knew the trajectory must be for this bullet coming from the point where it has been indicated it did come from. And in trying to place this actual frame that these frames are numbered when the Governor was hit, my opinion was that it was frame number, let's see, I think it was No. 36.

Mr. SPECTER 236?

Dr. SHAW. 236, give or take 1 or 2 frames. It was right in 35, 36, 37, perhaps.

Mr. SPECTER. I have heretofore asked you questions about what possibly could have happened in terms of the various combinations of possibilities on missiles striking the Governor in relationship to striking the President as well. Do you have any opinion as to what, in fact, did happen?

Mr. SPECTER. Is that view based on the information which Governor Connally provided to you?

Dr. SHAW. Largely.

Mr. SPECTER. As opposed to any objectively determinable facts from the bullets, the situs of the wounds or your viewing of the pictures?

Dr. SHAW. Yes. I was influenced a great deal by what Governor Connally knew about his movements in the car at this particular time.

Mr. DULLES. You have indicated a certain angle of declination on this chart here which the Chief Justice has.

Dr. SHAW. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know enough about the angle of declination of the bullet that hit the President to Judge at all whether these two angles of declination are consistent?

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Dr. Shaw

Volume IV Page 101

TESTIMONY OF DR. ROBERT ROEDER SHAW

Senator COOPER. The Commission will come to order.

Dr. Shaw, you understand that the purpose of this inquiry is taken under the order of the President appointing the Commission on the assassination of President Kennedy to investigate all the facts relating to his assassination.

Dr. SHAW. I do.

Senator COOPER. And report to the public.

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Dr. SHAW. I do.

Senator COOPER. Do you desire an attorney to be with you?

Dr. SHAW. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you state your full name for the record, please?

Dr. SHAW. Robert Roeder Shaw.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your profession, please?

Dr. SHAW. Physician and surgeon.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you outline briefly your educational background?

Dr. SHAW. I received my B.A. degree from the University of Michigan in 1927, and my M.D. degree from the same institution in 1933.

Following that I served 2 years at the Roosevelt Hospital in New York City from July 1934, to July 1936, in training in general surgery. I had then 2 years of training in thoracic surgery at the University Hospital, Ann Arbor, Mich., from July 1936 to July 1933.

On August 1, 1938, I entered private practice limiting my practice to thoracic surgery in Dallas, Tex.

Mr. DULLES. What kind of surgery?

Dr. SHAW. Thoracic surgery or surgery of the chest,

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I have practiced there continuously except for a period from June 1942, until December 1945, when I was a member of the Medical Corps of the Army of the United States serving principally in the European theater of operations.

I was away again from December 1961, until June of 1963, when I was head of the MEDICO team and performed surgery at Avicenna Hospital in Kabul, Pakistan.

Mr. DULLES. Will you tell us a little bit about MEDICO. Is that the ship?

Dr. SHAW. No; that is HOPE. MEDICO was formed by the late Dr. Tom Dooley.

Mr. DULLES. Yes; I know him very well. He was the man in Laos.

Dr. SHAW. Yes, sir; this was one of their projects.

Mr. DULLES. I see.

Dr. SHAW. I returned to----

Mr. DULLES. An interesting project.

Dr. SHAW. I returned to Dallas and on September 1, 1963, started working full time with the University of Texas Southwestern Medical School as professor of thoracic surgery and chairman of the division of thoracic surgery.

In this position I also am chief of thoracic surgery at Parkland Memorial Hospital in Dallas which is the chief hospital from the standpoint of the medical facilities of the school.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you licensed to practice medicine in the State of Texas?

Dr. SHAW. I am.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you certified?

Dr. SHAW. By the board of thoracic surgery you mean?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes; by the board of thoracic surgery.

Dr. SHAW. Yes; as of 1948.

Mr. SPECTER. What experience, if any, have you had, Dr. Shaw, with bullet wounds?

Dr. SHAW. I have had civilian experience, both in the work at Parkland Hospital, where we see a great amount of trauma, and much of this involves bullet wounds from homicidal attempts and accidents.

The chief experience I had, however, was during the Second World War when I was serving as chief of the thoracic surgery center in Paris, France. And during this particular experience we admitted over 900 patients with chest wounds of various sort, many of them, of course, being shell fragments rather than bullet wounds.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate as to the total number of bullet wounds you have had experience with?

Dr. SHAW. It would be approximately 1,000, considering the large number of admissions we had in Paris.

Mr. SPECTER What were your duties in a general way on November 22, 1963.

Dr. SHAW. On that particular date I had been at a conference at Woodlawn Hospital, which is our hospital for medical chest diseases connected with the medical school system. I had just gone to the Children's Hospital to see a small patient that I had done a bronchoscopy on a few days before and was returning to Parkland Hospital, and the medical school.

Woodlawn and the Children's Hospital are approximately a mile away from Parkland Hospital.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you called upon to render any aid to President Kennedy on November 22?

Dr. SHAW. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you called upon to render medical aid to Gov. John B. Connally on that day?

Dr. SHAW. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe briefly the circumstances surrounding your being called into the case.

Dr. SHAW. As I was driving toward the medical school I came to an intersection of Harry Hines Boulevard and Industrial Boulevard.

There is also a railroad crossing at this particular point. I saw an open limousine pass this point at high speed with a police escort. We were held up in traffic because of this escort Finally, when we were allowed to proceed,

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I went on to the medical school expecting to eat lunch. I had the radio on because it was the day that I knew the President was in Dallas and would be eating lunch at the Trade Mart which was not far away, and over the radio I heard the report that the President had been shot at while riding in the motorcade. I went on to the medical school and as I entered the medical school a student came in and joined three other students, and said the President has just been brought into the emergency room at Parkland, dead on arrival.

The students said, "You are kidding, aren't you?" and he said, "No, I am not. I saw him, and Governor Connally has-been shot through the chest."

Hearing that I turned and walked over to the emergency room, which is approximately 150 yards from. the medical school, and entered the emergency room.

Mr. SPECTER. At approximately what time did you arrive at the emergency room where Governor Connally was situated?

Dr. SHAW. As near as I could tell it was about 12:45.

Mr. SPECTER. Who was with Governor Connally, if anyone, at that time, Dr. Shaw?

Dr. SHAW. I immediately recognized two of the men who worked with me in thoracic surgery, Dr. James Duke and Dr. James Boland, Dr. Giesecke, who is an anesthesiologist, was also there along with a Dr. David Mebane who is an instructor in general surgery.

Mr. SPECTER. What was Governor Connally's condition at that time, based on your observations?

Dr. SHAW. The Governor was complaining bitterly of difficulty in breathing, and of pain in his right chest. Prior to my arriving there, the men had very properly placed a tight occlusive dressing over what on later examination proved to be a large sucking wound in the front of his right chest, and they had inserted a rubber tube between the second and third ribs in the front of the right chest, carrying this tube to what we call a water seal bottle.

Mr. SPECTER What was the purpose?

Dr. SHAW. Yes; this is done to reexpand the right lung which had collapsed due to the opening through the chest wall.

Mr. SPECTER. What wounds, if any, did you observe on the Governor at that time?

Dr. SHAW. I observed no wounds on the Governor at this time. It wasn't until he was taken to the operating room that I properly examined him from the standpoint of the wound.

Mr. SPECTER. How long after your initial viewing of him was he taken to the operating room?

Dr. SHAW. Within about 5 minutes. I stepped outside to talk to Mrs. Con-natty because I had been given information by Dr. Duke that blood had been drawn from the Governor, sent to the laboratory for cross-matching for blood that we knew would be necessary, that the operating room had already been alerted, and that they were ready and they were merely awaiting my arrival.

Mr. SPECTER. How was Governor Connally transported from the emergency room to the operating room?

Dr. SHAW. On a stretcher.

Mr. SPECTER. And was he transported up an elevator as well?

Dr. SHAW. Yes. It is two floors above the emergency rooms.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe what happened next in connection with Governor Connally's----

Mr. DULLES. Could I ask a question, putting in this tube is prior to making an incision?

Dr. SHAW. Yes; a stab wound.

Mr. DULLES. Just a stab wound?

Dr. SHAW. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. What treatment next followed for Governor Connally, Doctor?

Dr. SHAW. He was taken to the operating room and there Dr. Giesecke started the anesthesia. This entails giving an intravenous injection of sodium pentothal and then after the Governor was asleep a gas was used, that will be on the anesthetic record there.

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Mr. SPECTER. Do you know at approximately what time this procedure was started?

Dr. SHAW. I will have to refresh my memory again from the record. We had at the time I testified before, we had the

Mr. SPECTER. Permit me to make available to you a copy of the Parkland Memorial Hospital operative record and let me ask you, first of all, if you can identify these two pages on an exhibit heretofore marked as Commission Exhibit 392 as to whether or not this constitutes your report?

Dr. SHAW. Yes; this is a transcription of my dictated report of the operation.

Mr. SPECTER. Are the facts set forth therein true and correct?

Dr. SHAW. Yes. On this it states that the operation itself was begun at 1300 hours or 1 o'clock, 1 p.m., and that the actual surgery started at 1335 or 1:35 p.m.

The operation was concluded by me at 3--1520 which would be 3:20 p.m.

Mr. SPECTER. You have described, in a general way, the chest wound. What other wounds, if any, was Governor Connally suffering from at the time you saw him?

Dr. SHAW. I will describe then the wound of the wrist which was obvious. He had a wound of the lower right forearm that I did not accurately examine because I had already talked to Dr. Gregory while I was scrubbing for the operation, told him that this wound would need his attention as soon as we were able to get the chest in a satisfactory condition. There was also, I was told, I didn't see the wound, on the thigh, I was told that there was a small wound on the thigh which I saw later.

Mr. SPECTER. When did you first have an opportunity then to examine Governor Connally's wound on the posterior aspect of his chest?

Dr. SHAW. After the Governor had been anesthetized. As soon as he was asleep so we could manipulate him--before that time it was necessary for an endotracheal tube to be in place so his respirations could be controlled before we felt we could roll him over and accurately examine the wound entrance. We knew this was the wound exit.

Mr. SPECTER. This [indicating an area below the right nipple on the body]?

Dr. SHAW. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. How did you know it was a wound exit.

Dr. SHAW. By the fact of its size, the ragged edges of the wound. This wound was covered by a dressing which could not be removed until the Governor was anesthetized.

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating this wound, the wound on the Governor's chest?

Dr. SHAW. Yes; the front part.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe in as much detail as you can the wound on the posterior side of the Governor's chest?

Dr. SHAW. This was a small wound approximately a centimeter and a half in its greatest diameter. It was roughly elliptical. It was just medial to the axilliary fold or the crease of the armpit, but we could tell that this wound, the depth of the wound, had not penetrated the shoulder blade.

Mr. SPECTER. What were the characteristics, if any, which indicated to you that it was a wound of entrance then?

Dr. SHAW. Its small size, and the rather clean cut edges of the wound as compared to the usual more ragged wound of exit.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, I hand you a diagram which is a body diagram on Commission Exhibit No. 679, and ask you if, on the back portion of the figure, that accurately depicts the point of entry into Governor Connally's back?

Dr. SHAW. Yes. The depiction of the point of entry, I feel is quite accurate.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, with respect to the front side of the body, is the point of exit accurately shown on the diagram?

Dr. SHAW. The point is----

Mr. SPECTER. We have heretofore, may the record show the deposition covered much the same ground with Dr. Shaw, but the diagrams used now are new diagrams which will have to be remarked in accordance with your recollection.

Dr. SHAW. Yes. Because I would have to place they are showing here the angle.

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Mr. DULLES. Is this all on the record?

Mr. SPECTER. It should be.

Dr. SHAW. We are showing on this angle, the cartilage angle which it makes at the end of the sternum.

Mr. SPECTER. That is an inverted V which appears in front of the body?

Dr. SHAW. Now the wound was above that. They have shown it below that point so the wound would have to be placed here as far as the point is concerned.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you draw on that diagram a more accurate depiction of where the wound of exit occurred?

Dr. SHAW. Do you want me to initial this?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes; if you please, Dr. Shaw.

I hand you another body diagram marked Commission Exhibit 680 and I will ask you if that accurately depicts the angle of decline as the bullet passed through Governor Connally?

Dr. SHAW. I think the declination of this line is a little too sharply downward. I would place it about 5° off that line.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you redraw the line then, Dr. Shaw, and initial it, indicating the more accurate angle?

Dr. SHAW. The reason I state this is that as they have shown this, it would place the wound of exit a little too far below the nipple. Also it would, since the bullet followed the line of declination of the fifth rib, it would make the ribs placed in a too slanting position.

Mr. SPECTER. What operative procedures did you employ in caring for the wound of the chest, Dr. Shaw.

Dr. SHAW. The first measure was to excise the edges of the wound of exit in an elliptical fashion, and then this incision was carried in a curved incision along the lateral portion of the right chest up toward the right axilla in order to place the skin incision lower than the actual path of the bullet through the chest wall.

After this incision had been carried down to the level of the muscles attached to the rib cage, all of the damaged muscle which was chiefly the serratus anterior muscle which digitates along the fifth rib at this position, was cleaned away, cut away with sharp dissection.

As soon as--of course, this incision had been made, the opening through the parietal pleura, which is the lining of the inside of the chest was very obvious. It was necessary to trim away several small fragments of the rib which were still hanging to tags of periosteum, the lining of the rib, and the ragged ends of the rib were smoothed off with a rongeur.

Mr. SPECTER. What damage had been inflicted upon a rib, if any, Dr. Shaw?

Mr. SPECTER. What is the texture of the rib at the point where the missile struck?

Dr. SHAW. The texture of the rib here is not of great density. The cortex of the rib in the lateral portions of our ribs, is thin with the so-called cancellus portion of the rib being very spongy, offering very little resistance to pressure or to fracturing.

Mr. SPECTER. What effect, if any, would the striking of that rib have had to the trajectory of the bullet?

Dr. SHAW. It could have had a slight, caused a slight deflection of the rib, but probably not a great deflection of the rib, because of the angle at which it struck and also because of the texture of the rib at this time.

Mr. SPECTER. You say deflection of the rib or deflection of the bullet?

Dr. SHAW. Deflection of the bullet, I am sorry.

Mr. SPECTER. Was any metallic substance from the bullet left in the thoracic cage as a result of the passage of the bullet through the Governor's body?

Dr. SHAW. No. We saw no evidence of any metallic material in the X-ray that we had of the chest, and we found none during the operation.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you brought the X-rays with you, Dr. Shaw, from Parkland Hospital?

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Dr. SHAW. Yes; we have them here.

Mr. SPECTER. May the record show we have available a viewer for the X-rays.

Dr. Shaw, would you, by use of the viewer, exhibit the X-rays of the Governor's chest to show more graphically that which you have heretofore described?

Dr. SHAW. This is the first X-ray that was taken, which was taken in the operating room with the Governor on the operating table, and at this time anesthetized. The safety pin that you see here is used, was used, to secure the tube which had been put between the second and third rib in expanding the Governor's lung.

We can dimly see also the latex rubber tube up in the chest coming to the apex of the chest.

The variations that we see from normal here are the fact that first, there is a great amount of swelling in the chest wall which we know was due to bleeding and bruising of the tissues of the chest wall, and we also see that there is air in the tissues of the chest wall here and here. It is rather obvious.

Mr. SPECTER. When you say here and here, you are referring to the outer portions, showing on the X-ray moving up toward the shoulder area?

Dr. SHAW. Yes; going from the lower chest up to the region near the angle of the shoulder blade.

The honey framework of the chest, it is obvious that the fifth rib, we count ribs from above downward, this is the first rib, second rib, third rib, fourth rib, fifth rib, that a portion of this rib has been shattered, and we can see a few fragments that have been left behind.

Also the rib has because of being broken and losing some of its substance, has taken a rather inward position in relation to the fourth and the sixth ribs on either side.

Mr. SPECTER. What effect was there, if any, on the upper portion of that rib?

Dr. SHAW. This was not noticed at the time of this examination, Mr. Specter. However, in subsequent examinations we can tell that there was a fracture across the rib at this point due to the rib being struck and bent.

Mr. SPECTER. When you say this point, will you describe where that point exists on the X-ray?

Dr. SHAW. This is a point approximately 4 centimeters from its connection with the transverse process of the spine.

Mr. SPECTER. And is the fracture, which is located there, caused by a striking there or by the striking at the end of the rib?

Dr. SHAW. It is caused by the striking at the end of the rib.

Mr. SPECTER. Fine. What else then is discernible from the viewing of the X-ray, Dr. Shaw?

Dr. SHAW. There is a great amount of, we would say, obscuration of the lower part of the right lung field which we know from subsequent examination was due to blood in the pleural cavity and also due to a hematoma in the lower part of the right lower lobe and also a severe laceration of the middle lobe with it having lost its ability to ventilate at that time. So, we have both an airless lung, and blood in the lung to account for these shadows.

Mr. SPECTER. Is there anything else visible from the X-ray which is helpful in our understanding of the Governor's condition?

Dr. SHAW. No; I don't think so.

Mr. SPECTER. Would it be useful--As to that X-ray, Dr. Shaw, will you tell us what identifying data, if any, it has in the records of Parkland Hospital, for the record?

Dr. SHAW. On this X-ray it has in pencil John G. Connally.

Mr. SPECTER. Is that G or C?

Dr. SHAW. They have a "G" November 22, 1963, and it has a number 218-922.

Mr. SPECTER. Were those X-rays taken under your supervision?

Dr. SHAW. Yes, by a technician.

Mr. SPECTER. And that is, in fact, the X-ray then which was taken of Governor Connally at the time these procedures were being performed?

Dr. SHAW. It is.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw, would any of the other X-rays be helpful in our understanding of the Governor's condition?

Dr. SHAW. I believe the only--perhaps showing one additional X-ray would

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show the fracture previously described which was not easily discernible on the first film. This is quite often true but not important to the here is the fracture that can be easily seen.

Mr. SPECTER. You are now referring to a separate and second X-ray.

Dr. SHAW. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you start out by telling us on what date this X-ray was performed.

Dr. SHAW. This X-ray was made on the 29th of November 1963. 7 days following the incident.

Mr. SPECTER. What does it show of significance?

Dr. SHAW. It shows that there has been considerable clearing in the lower portion of the lung, and also that there is a fracture of the fifth rib as previously described approximately 4 centimeters from the transverse process posteriorly.

Mr. SPECTER. Is there anything else depicted by that X-ray of material assistance in evaluating the Governor's wound?

Dr. SHAW. No.

Mr. McCLOY. Were there any photographs taken as distinguished from X-rays of the body?

Dr. SHAW. There were no photographs.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw, we shall then, subject to the approval of the Commission, for the record, have the X-rays reproduced at Parkland Memorial Hospital, and, if possible, also have a photograph of the X-ray made for the permanent records of the Commission to show the actual X-ray, which Dr. Shaw has described during his testimony here this afternoon.

Senator COOPER. It is directed that it be made a part of the record of these hearings.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw, what additional operative procedures did you perform on Governor Connally's chest?

Dr. SHAW. I will continue with my description of the operative procedure. The opening that had been made through the rib after the removal of the fragments was adequate for further exploration of the pleural cavity. A self-retaining retractor was put into place to maintain exposure. Inside the pleural cavity there were approximately 200 cc. of clotted blood.

It was found that the middle lobe had been lacerated with the laceration dividing the lobe into roughly two equal parts. The laceration ran from the lower tip of the middle lobe up into its root or hilum.

However, the lobe was not otherwise damaged, so that it could he repaired using a running suture of triple zero chromic catgut.

The anterior basal segments of the right lower lobe had a large hematoma, and blood was oozing out of one small laceration that was a little less than a centimeter in length, where a rib fragment had undoubtedly been driven into the lobe. To control hemorrhage a single suture of triple zero chromic gut was placed in this laceration. There were several small matchstick size fragments of rib within the pleural cavity. Examination, however, of the pericardium of the diaphragm and the upper lobe revealed no injury to these parts of the chest.

A drain was placed in the eighth space in the posterior axillary line similar to the drain which had been placed in the second interspace in the front of the chest.

The drain in the front of the chest was thought to be a little too long so about 3 centimeters of it were cut away.

Attention was then turned on the laceration of the latissimus dorsi muscle where the missile had passed through it. Several sutures of chromic gut where used to repair this muscle.

The incision was then closed with interrupted No. zero chromic gut in the muscles of the chest wall--first, I am sorry, in the intercostale muscle, and muscles of the chest wall, and the same suture material was used to close the serratus anterior muscle in the subcutaneous tissue, and interrupted vertical sutures of black silk were used to close the skin.

Attention was then turned to the wound of entrance which, as previously described, was about a centimeter and a half in its greatest diameter, roughly

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elliptical in shape. The skin edges of this wound were incised excised, I beg your pardon--I have to go back just a little bit.

Prior to examination of this wound, a stab wound was made at the angle of the scapula to place a drain in the subscapular space. In the examination of the wound of entrance, the examining finger could determine that this drain was immediately under the wound of entrance, so that it was adequately draining the space.

Two sutures were placed in the facia of the muscle, and the skin was closed with interrupted vertical matching sutures of black silk.

That concluded the operation. Both tubes were connected to a water seal bottle, and the dressing was applied.

Mr. SPECTER. Who was in charge then of the subsequent care on the Governor's wrist?

Dr. SHAW. Dr. Charles Gregory who had been previously alerted and then came in to take care of the wrist.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, with respect to the wound on the wrist, did you have any opportunity to examine it by way of determining points of entry and exit?

Dr. SHAW. My examination of the wrist was a very cursory one. I could tell that there was a compound comminuted fracture because there was motion present, and there was a ragged wound just over the radius above the wrist joint. But that was the extent of my examination of the wrist.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw, did I take your deposition at Parkland Memorial Hospital on March 23 of 1964?

Dr. SHAW. Yes; you did.

Mr. SPECTER. Has that deposition been made available to you?

Dr. SHAW. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. To you here this afternoon?

Dr. SHAW. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you subsequent to the giving of that deposition on March 23, 1964, had an opportunity to examine Governor Connally's clothing which we have available in the Commission room here today?

Dr. SHAW. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, based on all facts now within your knowledge, is there any modification which you would care to make in terms of the views which you expressed about entrance and exit wounds back on March 23, based on the information which was available to you at that time?

Dr. SHAW. From an examination of the clothing, it is very obvious that the wound of entrance was through the coat sleeve.

Mr. SPECTER. While you are testifying in that manner, perhaps it would be helpful if we would make available to you the actual Jacket, if it pleases the Commission.

We shall reserve Exhibits Nos. 681 for the X-ray of November 22; 682 for the X-ray of November 29; and we shall now mark a photograph of the coat for our permanent records as "Commission Exhibit No. 683".

Dr. Shaw, I hand you at this time what purports to be the coat worn by Governor Connally, which we introduce subject to later proof when Governor Connally appears later this afternoon; and, for the record, I ask you first of all if this photograph, designated as Commission Exhibit No. 683, is a picture of this suit coat?

Dr. SHAW. It is.

Mr. SPECTER. I had interrupted you when you started to refer to the hole in the sleeve of the coat. Will you proceed with what you were testifying about there?

Dr. SHAW. The hole in the sleeve of the coat is within hall a centimeter of the very edge of the sleeve, and lies----

Mr. DULLES. This is the right sleeve, is it not?

Dr. SHAW. I am sorry, yea Thank you. Of the right sleeve, and places it, if the coat sleeve was in the same position, assuming it is in the same position that my coat sleeve is in, places it directly over the lateral portion of the wrist, really not directly on the volar or the dorsum of the surface of the wrist,

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but on the lateral position or the upper position, as the wrist is held in a neutral position.

Mr. SPECTER. With the additional information provided by the coat, would that enable you to give an opinion as to which was the wound of entrance and which the wound of exit on the Governor's wrist?

Dr. SHAW. There is only one tear in the Governor's garment as far as the appearance of the tear is concerned, I don't think I could render an opinion as to whether this is a wound of entrance or exit.

Mr. SPECTER. Then, do you have sufficient information at your disposal in total, based on your observations and what you know now to give any meaningful opinion as to which was the wound of entrance and which the wound of exit on the Governor's wrist?

Dr. SHAW. I would prefer to have Dr. Gregory testify about that, because he has examined it more carefully than I have.

Mr. SPECTER. Fine.

Mr. DULLES. Could you tell at all how the arm was held from that mark or that hole in the sleeve?

Dr. SHAW. Mr. Dulles, I thought I knew Just how the Governor was wounded until I saw the pictures today, and it becomes a little bit harder to explain.

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating the right hand held close to the body?

Dr. SHAW. Yes, and this is still a possibility. But I don't feel that it is the only possibility.

Senator COOPER. Why do you say you don't think it is the only possibility? What causes you now to say that it is the location----

Dr. SHAW. This is again the testimony that I believe Dr. Gregory will be giving, too. It is a matter of whether the wrist wound could be caused by the same bullet, and we felt that it could but we had not seen the bullets until today, and we still do not know which bullet actually inflicted the wound on Governor Connally.

Mr. DULLES. Or whether it was one or two wounds?

Dr. SHAW. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. Or two bullets?

Dr. SHAW. Yes; or three.

Mr. DULLES. Why do you say three?

Dr. SHAW. He has three separate wounds. He has a wound in the chest, a wound of the wrist, a wound of the thigh.

Mr. DULLES. Oh, yes; we haven't. come to the wound of the thigh yet, have we?

Mr. McCLOY. You have no firm opinion that all these three wounds were caused by one bullet?

Dr. SHAW. I have no firm opinion.

Mr. McCLOY. That is right.

Dr. SHAW. Asking me this now if it was true. If you had asked me a month ago I would have.

Mr. DULLES. Could they have been caused by one bullet, in your opinion?

Dr. SHAW. They could.

Mr. McCLOY. I gather that what the witness is saying is that it is possible that. they might have been caused by one bullet. But that he has no firm opinion now that they were.

Mr. DULLES. As I understand it too. Is our understanding correct?

Dr. SHAW. That is correct.

Senator COOPER. When you say all three are you referring to the wounds you have just described to the chest, the wound in the wrist, and also the wound in the thigh?

Dr. SHAW. Yes.

Senator COOPER. It was possible?

Dr. SHAW. Our original assumption, Senator Cooper, was that the Governor was approximately in this attitude at the time he was----

Senator COOPER. What attitude is that now?

Dr. SHAW. This is an attitude sitting in a jump seat as we know he was,

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upright, with his right forearm held across the lower portion of the chest. In this position, the trajectory of the bullet could have caused the wound of entrance, the wound of exit, struck his wrist and proceeded on into the left thigh. But although this is a possibility, I can't give a firm opinion that this is the actual way in which it occurred.

Mr. SPECTER. If it pleases the Commission, we propose to go through that in this testimony; and we have already started to mark other exhibits in sequence on the clothing. So that it will be more systematic, we plan to proceed with the identification of clothing and then go on to the composite diagram which explains the first hypothesis of Dr. Shaw and the other doctors of Park- land. And then proceed from that, as I intend to do, with an examination of the bullet, which will explore the thinking of the doctor on that subject.

Dr. Shaw, for our record, I will hand you Commission Exhibit No. 684 and ask you if that is a picture of the reverse side of the coat, which we will later prove to have been worn by Governor Connally, the coat which is before you?

Dr. SHAW. It is.

Mr. SPECTER. What, if anything, appears on the back of that coat and also on the picture in line with the wound which you have described on the Governor's posterior chest?

Dr. SHAW. The picture the coat and the picture of the coat, show a rent in the back of the coat approximately 2- centimeters medial to the point where the sleeve has been joined to the main portion of the garment.

The lighter-colored material of the lining of the coat can be seen through this rent in the coat.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw, I show you a shirt, subject to later proof that it was the shirt worn by Governor Connally, together with a photograph marked "Commission Exhibit No. 685," and ask you if that is a picture of that shirt, the back side of the shirt?

Dr. SHAW. Yes; it is a picture of the back side of the shirt. However, in this particular picture I am not able to make out the hole in the shirt very well.

Now I see it, I believe; yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe the hole as you see it to exist in the shirt? Aside from what you see on the picture, what hole do you observe on the back of the shirt itself?

Dr. SHAW. On the back of the shirt itself there is a hole, a punched out area of the shirt which is a little more than a centimeter in its greater diameter. The whole shirt is soiled by brown stains which could have been due to blood.

Mr. SPECTER. How does the hole in the back of the shirt correspond with the wound on the Governor's back?

Dr. SHAW. It does correspond exactly.

Mr. SPECTER. Now turning the same shirt over to the front side, I ask you if the photograph, marked "Commission Exhibit No. 386," is a picture of the front side of this shirt?

Dr. SHAW. It is.

Mr. SPECTER. What does the picture of the shirt show with respect to a hole, if any, on the right side of the front of the shirt?

Dr. SHAW. The picture and the shirt show on the right side a much larger rent in the garment with the rent being approximately 4 centimeters in its largest diameter.

Mr. SPECTER. What wound, if any, did the Governor sustain on his thigh, Dr. Shaw?

Mr. DULLES. Just one moment, are you leaving this?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. I wonder whether or not it would not be desirable for the doctor to put on this photograph where these holes are, because they are not at all clear for the future if we want to study those photographs.

Dr. SHAW. This one is not so hard.

Mr. DULLES. That one appears but the other one doesn't appear and I think it would be very helpful.

Dr. SHAW. How would you like to have me outline this?

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Mr. SPECTER. Draw a red circle of what you conceive to be the hole there, Doctor.

Mr. DULLES. The actual hole is not nearly as big as your circle, it is the darkened area inside that circle, is it not?

Dr. SHAW. Yes; the darkened area is enclosed by the circle.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you able to note on the photograph of the back of the shirt, 685?

Will you draw a red circle around the area of the hole on the photograph then, Dr. Shaw?

Mr. DULLES. Would you just initial those two circles, if you can.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw, what wounds, if any, did the Governor sustain on his left thigh?

Dr. SHAW. He sustained a small puncture-type wound on the medial aspect of the left thigh.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have an opportunity to examine that closely?

Dr. SHAW. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have an opportunity to examine it sufficiently to ascertain its location on the left thigh?

Dr. SHAW. No; I didn't examine it that closely, except for its general location.

Mr. SPECTER. Where was it with respect to a general location then on the Governor's thigh?

Dr. SHAW. It is on the medial anterior aspect of the thigh.

Mr. DULLES. Nontechnically, what does it mean?

Dr. SHAW. Well, above, slightly above, between, in other words, the medial aspect would be the aspect toward the middle of the body, but as far as being how many centimeters or inches it is from the knee and the groin, I am not absolutely sure.

Mr. SPECTER. I now show you a pair of trousers which we shall later identify as being those worn by the Governor. I will, first of all, ask you if a photograph bearing Commission Exhibit No. 687 is a picture of those trousers?

Dr. SHAW. It is.

Mr. SPECTER. And what hole, if any did you observe on the trousers and on the picture of the trousers?

Dr. SHAW. There is a hole in the garment that has been made by some instrument which has carried away a part of the Governor's garment. In other words, it is not a tear but is a punched out hole, and this is approximately 4 centimeters on the inner aspect from the crease of the trousers.

Mr. DULLES. Can you tell where the knee is there and how far above the knee approximately?

Dr. SHAW. I can't tell exactly.

Mr. DULLES. I guess you can't tell.

Dr. SHAW. From the crotch I would say it would be slightly, it is a little hard to tell, slightly more toward the knee than the groin.

Mr. SPECTER. Does that hole in the left leg of the trousers match up to the wound on the left thigh of the Governor?

Dr. SHAW. To the best of my recollection it does.

Mr. DULLES. Are there any other perforations in these trousers at all, any other holes?

Dr. SHAW. No.

Mr. DULLES. So that means that whatever made the hole on the front side did not come through and make a hole anywhere else in the trousers?

Dr. SHAW. That is correct. It had to be a penetrating wound and not a perforating wound, it didn't go on through.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you turn those trousers over, Dr. Shaw?

Dr. SHAW. I believe we had already looked at it.

Mr. SPECTER. On the reverse side, and state whether or not this picture bearing Commission Exhibit No. 688 accurately depicts the reverse side of the trousers?

Dr. SHAW. Yes; it does.

Mr. SPECTER. Is there any hole shown either on the picture or on the trousers themselves?

Dr. SHAW. No.

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Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw, I now show you a body diagram which is marked "Commission Exhibit No. 689."

Senator COOPER. May I ask a question before you ask that question?

When you first saw Governor Connally in the emergency room was he dressed or undressed?

Dr. SHAW. His trousers were still on. He had his shorts on, I should say, Senator Cooper, but his coat, shirt, and trousers had been removed.

Mr. SPECTER. Were his clothes anywhere in the vicinity where you could have seen them?

Dr. SHAW. No; I never saw them. This is the first time that I saw them.

Mr. SPECTER. That is earlier today when you examined them in this room?

Dr. SHAW. That is Correct.

Dr. SHAW. That is Correct.

Mr. SPECTER. With reference to that diagram, would you explain the position that you had earlier thought the Governor to have been in when he was wounded here?

Dr. SHAW. We felt that the Governor was in an upright sitting position, and at the time of wounding was turning slightly to the right. This would bring the three wounds, as we know them, the wound in the chest, the wound in the wrist, and the wound in the thigh into a line assuming that the right forearm was held against the lower right chest in front.

The line of inclination of this particular diagram is a little more sharply downward than is probably correct in view of the inclination of the ribs of the chest.

Dr. SHAW. The fact that the muscle bundles on either side of the fifth rib were not damaged meant that the missile to strip away 10 centimeters of the rib had to follow this rib pretty much along its line of inclination.

Mr. DULLES. I wonder if you could use that red pencil to make it a little clearer for us?

Dr. SHAW. I think these would probably work well on this paper. Perhaps this isn't a tremendous paint but it slopes just a little too much.

Mr. SPECTER. You have initialed that to show your incline?

Dr. SHAW. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. With respect to the wound you described on the thigh, Dr. Shaw, was there any point of exit as to that wound?

Dr. SHAW. No.

Mr. SPECTER. I now show you----

Mr. DULLES. Could I ask one more question there, how deep was the wound of entry, could you tell at all?

Dr. SHAW. Mr. Dulles, I didn't examine the wound of the thigh so I can't testify as to that. Dr. Gregory, I think, was there at the time that the debris was carried out and he may have more knowledge than I have.

Mr. DULLES. We will hear Dr. Gregory later?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes; he is scheduled to testify as soon as Dr. Shaw concludes.

Dr. Shaw, I now show you Commission Exhibit 399 which has heretofore been identified as being a virtually whole bullet weighing 158 grains.

May I say for the record, that in the depositions which have been taken in Parkland Hospital, that we have ascertained, and those depositions are part of the overall record, that is the bullet which came from the stretcher of Governor Connally.

First, Dr. Shaw, have you had a chance to examine that bullet earlier today?

Dr. SHAW. Yes; I examined it this morning.

Mr. SPECTER. Is it possible that the bullet which went through the Governor's chest could have emerged being as fully intact as that bullet is?

Dr. SHAW. Yes; I believe it is possible because of the fact that the bullet

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struck the fifth rib at a very acute angle and struck a portion of the rib which would not offer a great amount of resistance.

Mr. SPECTER. Does that bullet appear to you to have any of its metal flaked off?

Dr. SHAW. I have been told that the one point on the nose of this bullet that is deformed was cut off for purposes of examination. With that information, I would have to say that this bullet has lost literally none of its substance.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, as to the wound on the thigh, could that bullet have gone into the Governor's thigh without causing any more damage than appears on the face of that bullet?

Dr. SHAW. If it was a spent bullet; yes. As far as the bullet is concerned it could have caused the Governor's thigh wound as a spent missile.

Mr. SPECTER. Why do you say it is a spent missile, would you elaborate on what your thinking is on that issue?

Dr. SHAW. Only from what I have been told by Dr. Shires and Dr. Gregory, that the depth of the wound was only into the subcutaneous tissue, not actually into the muscle of the leg, so it meant that missile had penetrated for a very short period. Am I quoting you correctly, Dr. Gregory?

Mr. SPECTER. May the record show Dr. Gregory is present during this testimony and----

Dr. GREGORY. I will say yes.

Dr. SHAW. I do not.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw, assume if you will certain facts to be true in hpyothetical form, that is, that the President was struck in the upper portion of the back or lower portion of the neck with a 6.5-mm. missile passing between the strap muscles of the President's neck, proceeding through a facia channel striking no bones, not violating the pleural cavity, and emerging through the anterior third of the neck, with the missile having been fired from a weapon having a muzzle velocity of approximately 2,000 feet per second, with the muzzle being approximately 160 to 250 feet from the President's body; that the missile was a copper jacketed bullet. Would it be possible for that bullet to have then proceeded approximately 4 or 5 feet and then would it be possible for it to have struck Governor Connally in the back and have inflicted the wound which you have described on the posterior aspect of his chest, and also on the anterior aspect of his chest?

Dr. SHAW. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And what would your reason be for giving an affirmative answer to that question, Dr. Shaw?

Dr. SHAW. Because I would feel that a missile with this velocity and weight striking no more than the soft tissues of the neck would have adequate velocity and mass to inflict the wound that we found on the Governor's chest.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, without respect to whether or not the bullet identified as Commission Exhibit 399 is or is not the one which inflicted the wound on the Governor, is it possible that a missile similar to the one which I have just described in the hypothetical question could have inflicted all of the Governor's wounds in accordance with the theory which you have outlined on Commission Exhibit No. 689?

Dr. SHAW. Assuming that it also had passed through the President's neck you mean?

Mr. SPECTER. No; I had not added that factor in. I will in the next question.

Mr. SPECTER. Your answer there, though, depends upon the assumption that the bullet which we have identified as Exhibit 399 is the bullet which did the

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damage to the Governor. Aside from whether or not that is the bullet which inflicted the Governor's wounds.

Dr. SHAW. I see.

Mr. SPECTER. Could a bullet traveling in the path which I have described in the prior hypothetical question, have inflicted nil of the wounds on the Governor?

Dr. SHAW. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And so far as the velocity and the dimension of the bullet are concerned, is it possible that the same bullet could have gone through the President in the way that I have described and proceed through the Governor causing all of his wounds without regard to whether or not it was bullet 399?

Dr. SHAW. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. When you started to comment about it not being possible, was that in reference to the existing mass and shape of bullet 399?

Dr. SHAW. I thought you were referring directly to the bullet shown as Exhibit 399.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your opinion as to whether bullet 399 could have inflicted all of the wounds on the Governor, then, without respect at this point to the wound of the President's neck?

Dr. SHAW. I feel that there would be some difficulty in explaining all of the wounds as being inflicted by bullet Exhibit 399 without causing more in the way of loss of substance to the bullet or deformation of the bullet.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw, have you had an opportunity today here in the Cornmission building to view the movies which we referred to as the Zapruder movies and the slides taken from these movies?

Dr. SHAW. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And what, if any, light did those movies shed on your evaluation and opinions on this matter with respect to the wounds of the Governor?

Dr. SHAW. Well, my main interest was to try to place the time that the Governor was struck by the bullet which inflicted the wound on his chest in reference to the sequence of the three shots, as has been described to us.

(At this point the Chief Justice entered the hearing room.)

This meant trying to carefully examine the position of the Governor's body in the car so that it would fall in line with what we knew the trajectory must be for this bullet coming from the point where it has been indicated it did come from. And in trying to place this actual frame that these frames are numbered when the Governor was hit, my opinion was that it was frame number, let's see, I think it was No. 36.

Mr. SPECTER 236?

Dr. SHAW. 236, give or take 1 or 2 frames. It was right in 35, 36, 37, perhaps.

Mr. SPECTER. I have heretofore asked you questions about what possibly could have happened in terms of the various combinations of possibilities on missiles striking the Governor in relationship to striking the President as well. Do you have any opinion as to what, in fact, did happen?

Dr. SHAW. Yes. From the pictures, from the conversation with Governor Connally and Mrs. Connally, it seems that the first bullet hit the President in the shoulder and perforated the neck, but this was not the bullet that Governor Connally feels hit him; and in the sequence of films I think it is hard to say that the first bullet hit both of these men almost simultaneously.

Mr. SPECTER. Is that view based on the information which Governor Connally provided to you?

Dr. SHAW. Largely.

Mr. SPECTER. As opposed to any objectively determinable facts from the bullets, the situs of the wounds or your viewing of the pictures?

Dr. SHAW. Yes. I was influenced a great deal by what Governor Connally knew about his movements in the car at this particular time.

Mr. DULLES. You have indicated a certain angle of declination on this chart here which the Chief Justice has.

Dr. SHAW. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know enough about the angle of declination of the bullet that hit the President to Judge at all whether these two angles of declination are consistent?

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Dr. SHAW. We know that the angle of declination was a downward one from hack to front so that I think this is consistent with the angle of declination of the wound that the Governor sustained.

Senator COOPER. Are you speaking of the angle of declination in the President's body?

Dr. SHAW. Of the first wound?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes.

Dr. SHAW. First wound.

Mr. SPECTER. What you have actually seen from pictures to show the angle of declination?

Dr. SHAW. That is right.

Mr. SPECTER. In the wounds in the President's body?

Dr. SHAW. Yes; that is right. I did not examine the President.

Mr. DULLES. And that angle taking into account say the 4 feet difference between where the President was sitting and where the Governor was sitting, would be consistent with the point of entry of the Governor's body as you have shown it?

Dr. SHAW. The jump seat in the car, as we could see, placed the Governor sitting at a lower level than the President, and I think conceivably these two wounds could have been caused by the same bullet.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything else to add, Dr. Shaw, which you think would be helpful to the Commission in any way?

Dr. SHAW. I don't believe so Mr. Specter.

Mr. SPECTER. May it please the Commission then I would like to move into evidence Commission Exhibits Nos. 679 and 680, and then reserve Nos. 681 and 682 until we get the photographs of the X-rays and I now move for admission into evidence Commission Exhibits Nos. 683 through 689.

Senator COOPER. They have all been identified, have they?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes, sir; during the course of Dr. Shaw's testimony.

Senator COOPER. It is ordered then that these exhibits be received in the record.

(The documents referred to, previously identified as Commission Exhibits Nos. 679, 680, and 683-689 for identification were received in evidence.)

Mr. McCLOY. Just one or two questions. It is perfectly clear, Doctor, that the wound, the lethal wound on the President did not--the bullet that caused the lethal wound on the President, did not cause any wounds on Governor Connally, in your opinion?

Dr. SHAW. Mr. McCloy, I couldn't say that from my knowledge.

Mr. McCLOY. We are talking about the, following up what Mr. Dulles said about the angle of declination, the wound that came through the President's collar, you said was consistent between the same bullet. I just wondered whether under all the circumstances that you know about the President's head wound on the top that would also be consistent with a wound in Governor Connally's body?

Dr. SHAW. On the chest, yes; I am not so sure about the wrist. I can't quite place where his wrist was at the time his chest was struck.

Mr. McCLOY. Now perhaps this is Dr. Gregory's testimony, that is the full description of the wrist wound, that would be his rather than your testimony?

Dr. SHAW. I think he could throw just as much light on it as I could. And more in certain aspects.

Mr. McCLOY. It did hit bone?

Dr. SHAW. Obviously.

Mr. McCLOY. And there must have been a considerable diminution in the velocity of the bullet after penetrating through the wrist?

Dr. SHAW. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. The wound inflicted on it, the chest wound on Governor Connally, if you move that an inch or two, 1 inch or the other, could that have been lethal, go through an area that could easily have been lethal?

Dr. SHAW. Yes; of course, if it had been moved more medially it could have struck the heart and the great vessels.

Mr. McCLOY. Let me ask you this, Doctor, in your experience with gunshot wounds, is it possible for a man to be hit sometime before he realizes it?

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Dr. SHAW. Yes. There can be a delay in the sensory reaction.

Mr. McCLOY. Yes; so that a man can think as of a given instant he was not hit, and when actually he could have been hit.

Dr. SHAW. There can be an extending. sensation and then just a gradual building up of a feeling of severe injury.

Mr. McCLOY. But there could be a delay in any appreciable reaction between the time of the impact of the bullet and the occurrence?

Dr. SHAW. Yes; but in the case of a wound which strikes a bony substance such as a rib, usually the reaction is quite prompt.

Mr. McCLOY. Yes.

Dr. SHAW. Yes.

Mr. McCLOY. Now, you have indicated, I think, that this bullet traveled along, hit and traveled along the path of the rib, is that right?

Dr. SHAW. Yes.

Mr. McCLOY. Is it possible that it could have not, the actual bullet could not have hit the rib at all but it might have been the expanding flesh that would cause the wound or the proper contusion, I guess you would call it on the rib itself?

Dr. SHAW. I think we would have to postulate that the bullet hit the rib itself by the neat way in which it stripped the rib out without doing much damage to the muscles that lay on either side of it.

Mr. McCLOY. Was---up until you gave him the anesthetic--the Governor was fully conscious, was he?

Dr. SHAW. I would not say fully, but he was responsive. He would answer questions.

Mr. McCLOY. I think that is all I have.

The CHAIRMAN. I have no questions of the doctor.

Mr. DULLES. There were no questions put to him that were significant as far as our testimony is concerned?

Dr. SHAW. No; we really don't have to question him much. Our problem was pretty clearcut, and he told us it hurt and that was about his only response as far as----

Senator COOPER. Could I ask you a question, doctor?

I think you said from the time you came into the emergency room and the time you went to the operating room was about 5 minutes?

Dr. SHAW. Yes; it was just the time that it took to ask a few simple questions, what has been done so far, and has the operating room been alerted, and then I went out and talked to Mrs. Connally, just very briefly, I told her what the problem was in respect to the Governor and what we were going to have to do about it and she said to go ahead with anything that was necessary. So this couldn't have taken more than 5 minutes or so.

Mr. DULLES. Did he say anything or did anyone say anything there about the circumstances of the shooting?

Dr. SHAW. Not at that time.

Mr. DULLES. Either of Governor Connally or the President?

Dr. SHAW. Not at that time. All of our conversation was later.

Mr. DULLES. Was the President in the same room?

Dr. SHAW. No.

Mr. DULLES. Did you see him?

Dr. SHAW. I only saw his shoes and his feet. He was in the room immediately opposite. As I came into the hallway, I could recognize that the President was on it, in the room to my right. I knew that my problem was concerned with Governor Connally, and I turned and went into the room where I saw that he was.

Mr. DULLES. Did you hear at that time or have any knowledge, of a bullet which had been found on the stretcher?

Dr. SHAW. No; this was later knowledge.

Mr. DULLES. When did you first hear that?

(At this point Senator Russell entered the hearing room.)

Dr. SHAW. This information was first given to me by a man from the Secret Service who interviewed me in my office several weeks later. It is the first time I knew about any bullet being recovered.

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Senator COOPER. I think, of course, it is evident from your testimony you have had wide experience in chest wounds and bullet wounds in the chest.

What experience have you had in, say, the field of ballistics? Would this experience you have been dealing in chest wounds caused by bullets--have provided you knowledge also about the characteristics of missiles, particularly bullets of this type?

Dr. SHAW. No; Senator. I believe that my information about ballistics is just that of an average layman, no more. Perhaps a little more since I have seen deformed bullets from wounds, but I haven't gone into that aspect of wounds.

Senator COOPER. In the answers to the hypothetical questions that were addressed to you, based upon the only actual knowledge which you could base that answer, was the fact that you had performed the operation on the wound caused in the chest, on the wound in the chest?

Dr. SHAW. That is true. I have seen many bullets that have passed through bodies or have penetrated bodies and have struck bone and I know manners from which they are deformed but I know very little about the caliber of bullets, the velocity of bullets, many things that other people have much more knowledge of than I have.

Senator COOPER. That is all.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much, Dr. Shaw.

Volume V

Volume VI

TESTIMONY OF DR. ROBERT SHAW

The testimony of Dr. Robert Shaw was taken at 6 p.m., on March 23, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that Dr. Robert Shaw is present, having responded to a request to have his deposition taken in connection with the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy, which is investigating all facts relating to the medical care of President Kennedy and Governor Connally, and Dr. Shaw has been requested to appear and testify concerning the treatment on Governor Connally.

Dr. Shaw, will you rise and raise your right hand, please.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give before the President's Commission in the course of this deposition proceeding will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Dr. SHAW. I do.

Mr. SPECTER Will you state your full name for the record, please?

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Dr. SHAW. Robert Roeder Shaw.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is your profession, sir?

Dr. SHAW. Physician and surgeon.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you outline briefly your educational background, please?

Dr. SHAW. I received my B.A. degree from the University of Michigan in 1927 and M.D. degree in 1933. My surgical training was obtained at Roosevelt Hospital in New York City, July 1934 to July 1936, and my training in thoracic surgery at the University Hospital, Ann Arbor, Mich, July 1936 to July 1938. Do you want me to say what happened subsequent to then ?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes; will you outline your medical career in brief form subsequent to that date, please?

Dr. SHAW. I entered private practice, limited to thoracic surgery, August 1, 1938. I have continuously practiced this specialty in Dallas, with the exception of the period from June 1942 to December 1945, when I was a member of the Medical Corps of the Army of the United States, serving almost all of this period in the European theatre of operations. I was again absent from Dallas from December 1961 until June 1963, when I headed the medico team and performed surgery at the Avicenna Hospital at Kabul, Afghanistan.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you Board certified, Dr. Shaw?

Dr. SHAW. Yes. I am certified 'by the Board of Thoracic Surgery, date of certification--1948. At the present time I am professor of thoracic surgery and chairman of the division of thoracic surgery at the University of Texas, Southwestern Medical School.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to perform any medical care for President Kennedy on November 22, 1963?

Dr. SHAW. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to care for Governor Connally?

Dr. SHAW. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you relate the circumstances of your being called in to care for the Governor, please?

Dr. SHAW. I was returning to Parkland Hospital and the medical school from a conference I had attended at Woodlawn Hospital, which is approximately a mile away, when I saw an open limousine going past the intersection of Industrial Boulevard and Harry Hines Boulevard under police escort. As soon as traffic had cleared, I proceeded on to the medical school. On the car radio I heard that the President had been shot at while riding in the motorcade. Upon entering the medical school, a medical student came in and joined three other medical students. He stated that President Kennedy had been brought in dead on arrival to the emergency room of Parkland Hospital and that Governor Connally had been shot through the chest. Upon hearing this, I proceeded immediately to the emergency room of the hospital and arrived at the emergency room approximately 5 minutes after the President and Governor Connally had arrived.

Mr. SPECTER. Where did you find Governor Connally at that time, Dr. Shaw?

Dr. SHAW. I found Governor Connally lying on a stretcher in emergency room No. 2. In attendance were several men, Dr. James Duke, Dr. David Mebane, Dr. Giesecke, an anesthesiologist. As emergency measures, the open wound on the Governor's right chest had been covered with. a heavy dressing and manual pressure was being applied. A drainage tube had been inserted into the second interspace in the anterior portion of the right chest and connected to a water-sealed bottle to bring about partial reexpansion of the collapsed right lung. An intravenous needle had been inserted into a vein in the left arm and intravenous fluid was running.

I was informed by Dr. Duke that blood had already been drawn and sent to the laboratory to be crossmatched with 4 pints of blood to be available at surgery. He also stated that the operating room had been alerted and that they were merely waiting for my arrival to take the Governor to surgery, since it was obvious that the wound would have to be debrided and closed.

Mr..SPECTER. At what time did the operation actually start, Dr. Shaw?

Dr. SHAW. That, I would have to refresh my memory on that--now, this, of course--the point he began the anesthesia--that would be about right--but I have to refresh my memory.

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Mr. SPECTER. Permit me to make available on the record for you the operative record which has been heretofore marked as Commission Exhibit No. 392, with the exhibit consisting of the recorded of Parkland Hospital on President Kennedy as well as Governor Connally and I call your attention to a 2-page report which bears your name as the surgeon, under date of November 22, 1963, of thoracic surgery for Governor Connally, and, first, I ask you if in fact this report was prepared by you?

Dr. SHAW. It was.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, with that report, is your recollection refreshed as to the starting time of the operation on Governor Connally's chest?

Dr. SHAW. Yes; the anesthesia was begun at 1300 hours.

Mr. SPECTER. Which would be 1 p.m. ?

Dr. SHAW. 1 p.m., and the actual incision was made at 1335 or 1:35 p.m.

Mr. SPECTER. And what time did that operation conclude?

Dr. SHAW. My operation was completed at 1520 hours, or 3:20.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe Governor Connally's condition, Dr. Shaw, directing your attention first to the wound on his back?

Dr. SHAW. When Governor Connally was examined,, it was found that there was a small wound of entrance, roughly elliptical in shape, and approximately a cm. and a half in its longest diameter, in the right posterior shoulder, which is medial to the fold of the axilla.

Mr. SPECTER. What is the axilla, in lay language, Dr Shaw?

Dr. SHAW. The arm pit.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw, will you describe next the wound of exit?

Dr. SHAW. Yes; the wound of exit was below and slightly medial to the nipple on the anterior right chest. It was a round, ragged wound, approximately 5 cm. in diameter. This wound had obviously torn the pleura, since it was a sucking wound, allowing air to pass to and fro between the pleura cavity and the outside of the body.

Mr. SPECTER Define the pleura, please. Doctor, in lay language.

Dr. SHAW. The pleura is the lining of the chest cavity with one layer of pleura, the parietal pleura lining the inside of the chest wall, diaphragm and the mediastinum, which is the compartment of the body containing the heart, its pericardial sac, and great vessels.

Mr. SPECTER. What were the characteristics of these two bullet wounds which led you to believe that one was a wound of entry and one was a wound of exit, Dr Shaw?

Dr. SHAW. The wound of entrance is almost invariably the smaller wound, since it perforates the skin and makes a wound approximately or slightly larger than the missile. The wound of exit, especially if it has shattered any bony material in the body, will be the larger of the wounds.

Mr. SPECTER. What experience, Doctor, have you had, if any, in evaluating gunshot wounds?

Dr. SHAW. I have had considerable experience with gunshot wounds and wounds due to missiles because of my war experience. This experience was not only during the almost 2 years in England, but during the time that I was head of the Thoracic Center in Paris, France, for a period of approximately a year.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you be able to give an approximation of the total number of bullet wounds you have had occasion to observe and treat?

Dr. SHAW. Considering the war experience and the addition of wounds seen in civilian practice, it probably would number well over a thousand, since we had over 900 admissions to the hospital in Paris.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the line of trajectory, Dr. Shaw, between the point in the back of the Governor and the point in the front of the Governor, where the bullet wounds were observed?

Dr. SHAW. Considering the wound of entrance and the wound of exit, the trajectory of the bullet was obliquely downward, considering the fact that the Governor was in a sitting position at the time of wounding.

Mr. SPECTER. As an illustrative guide here, Dr. Shaw--

Dr. SHAW. May I add one sentence there?

Mr. SPECTER. Please do.

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Dr. SHAW. The bullet, in passing through the Governor's chest wall struck the fifth rib at its midpoint and roughly followed the slanting direction of the fifth rib, shattering approximately 10 cm. of the rib. The intercostal muscle bundle above the fifth rib and below the fifth rib were surprisingly spared from injury by the shattering of the rib, which again establishes the trajectory of the bullet.

Mr. SPECTER. Would the shattering of the rib have had any effect in deflecting the path of the bullet from a straight line?

Dr. SHAW. It could have, except that in the case of this injury, the rib was obviously struck so that not too dense cancellus portion of the rib in this position was carried away by the bullet and probably there was very little in the way of deflection.

Mr. SPECTER At this time, Dr. Shaw,. I would like to call your attention to an exhibit which we have already had marked as Dr. Gregory's Exhibit No. 1, because we have used this in the course of his deposition earlier today and this is a body diagram, and I ask you, first of all, looking at Diagram No. 1, to comment as to whether the point of entry marked on the right shoulder of Governor Connally is accurate?

Dr. SHAW. Yes. The point of entry as marked on this exhibit I consider to be quite accurate.

Mr. SPECTER. Is the size and dimension of the hole accurate on scale, or would you care to make any adjustment or modification in that characterization by picture?

Dr. SHAW. As the wound entry is marked on this figure, I would say that the scale is larger than the actual wound or the actual depicting of the wound should be. As I described it, it was approximately a centimeter and a half in length.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you draw, Dr. Shaw, right above the shoulder as best you can recollect, what that wound of entry appeared at the time you first observed it? Would you put your initials right beside that?

(The witness, Dr. Shaw, complied with the request of Counsel Specter.)

Mr. SPECTER. Now, directing your attention to the figure right beside, showing the front view, does the point of exit on the lower chest of the figure there correspond with the point of exit on the body of Governor Connally?

Dr. SHAW. Yes; I would say that it conforms in every way except that it was a little nearer to the right nipple than depicted here. Off the record, just a minute.

(Discussion between Counsel Specter and the witness, Dr. Shaw, off the record. )

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw, in our off-the-record conversation, you called my attention to your thought that the nipple line is incorrectly depicted on that figure, would you, therefore, in ink mark on there the nipple line which would be more accurate proportionately to that body?

Dr. SHAW. Yes; I feel the nipple line as shown on this figure is a little high and should be placed at a lower point on the body, which would bring the wound of exit, which I feel is in the proper position, more in line with the actual position of the nipple.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, with the wound of exit as it is shown there, does that correspond in position with the actual situation on Governor Connally's body as you have redrawn the proportion to the nipple line?

Dr. SHAW. It does.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you put an "X" through the old nipple line so we have obscured that and put your initials beside those two marks, if you would, please?

Dr. SHAW. By the "X-1"?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes, please.

(The witness, Dr. Shaw, complied with request of Counsel Specter in drawing on the figure heretofore mentioned. )

Mr. SPECTER. Now, as to the proportion of the hole depicting the point of exit, is that correct with respect to characterizing the situation on Governor Connally?

Dr. SHAW. It is, and corresponds with the relative size of the two wounds as I have shown on the other figure.

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Mr. SPECTER. Would you at this time, right above the right shoulder there, draw the appearances of the point of exit as nearly as you can recollect it on Governor Connally?

Dr. SHAW. This is right.

Mr. SPECTER You say the hole which appears on Governor Connally is just about the size that it would have been on his body?

Dr. SHAW. Yes; it is drawn in good scale.

Mr. SPECTER In good scale to the body?

Dr. SHAW. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you draw it on another portion of the paper here in of its absolute size?

Dr. SHAW. Five cm. it would be about like that--do you want me to mark that?

Mr. SPECTER. Put your initials right in the center of that circle.

Dr. SHAW. I'll just put "wound of exit."

Mr. SPECTER Fine--just put "wound of exit--actual size" and put your initials under it.

(The witness, Dr. Shaw, complied with request of Counsel Specter.)

Mr. SPECTER. Let the record show that Dr. Shaw has marked "wound of exit--actual size" with his initials R.R.S. on the diagram 1.

Now, looking at diagram 2, Dr. Shaw, does the angle of declination on the figure correspond with the angle that the bullet passed through Governor Connally's chest?

Dr. SHAW. It does.

Mr. SPECTER. Is there any feature of diagram 3 which is useful in further elaborating that which you have commented about on diagram 1?

Dr. SHAW. No. Again off the record?

Mr. SPECTER All right, off the record.

(Discussion between Counsel Specter and the witness, Dr. Shaw, off the record.)

Mr. SPECTER. You have just commented off the record, Dr. Shaw, that the wound of entry is too large proportionately to the wound of exit, but aside from that, is there anything else on diagram 3 which will be helpful to us?

Dr. SHAW. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Is there anything else on diagram 4 which would be helpful by way of elaborating that which appeared on diagram 2?

Dr. SHAW. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Now as to the treatment or operative procedure which you performed on Governor Connally, would you now describe what you did for him?

Dr. SHAW. As soon as anesthesia had been established and an endotracheal tube was in place so that respiration could be controlled with positive pressure, the large occlusive dressing which had been applied in the emergency room was removed. This permitted better inspection of the wound of exit, air passed to and fro through the damaged chest wall, there was obvious softening of the bony framework of the chest wall as evidenced by exaggerated motion underneath the skin along the line of the trajectory of the missile.

The skin of the chest wall axilla and back were thoroughly cleaned and aseptic solution was applied for further cleaning of the skin, the whole area was draped so as to permit access to both the wound of exit and the entrance wound. Temporarily, the wound of entrance was covered with a sterile towel.

First an elliptical incision was made to remove the ragged edges of the wound of exit. This incision was then extended laterally and upward in a curved direction so as to not have the incision through the skin and subcutaneous tissue directly over the line of the trajectory of the bullet where the chest had been softened.

It was found that approximately 10 cm. of the fifth rib had been shattered and the rib fragments acting as secondary missiles had been the major contributing factor to the damage to the anterior chest wall and to the underlying lung.

Mr. SPECTER. What do you mean, Doctor, by the words "fragments acting as secondary missiles"?

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Dr. SHAW. When bone is struck by a high velocity missile it fragments and acts much like bowling pins when they are struck by a bowling ball--they fly in all directions.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you continue now and further describe the treatment which you performed?

Dr. SHAW. The bony fragments were removed along with all obviously damaged muscle. It was found that the fourth and fifth intercoastal muscle bundles were almost completely intact where the rib had been stripped out. There was damage to the latissimus dorsi muscle, but this was more in the way of laceration, so that the damage could be repaired by suture. The portion of parietal pleura which had not been torn by the injury was opened along the length of the resected, portion of the fifth rib. The jagged ends of the fifth rib were cleaned with a rongeur; approximately 200 cc. of clot and liquid blood was removed from the pleura cavity; inspection of the lung revealed that the middle lobe had a long tear which separated the lobe into approximately two equal segments. This tear extended up into the hilum of the lobe, but had not torn a major bronchus or a major blood vessel. The middle lobe was repaired with a running No. 3 O chromic gut approximating the tissue of the depths of the lobe, with two sutures, and then approximating the visceral pleura on both the medial and lateral surface with a running suture of the same material--same gut.

Upon repair of the lobe it expanded well upon pressure on the anesthetic bag with very little in the way of peripheral leak.

Attention was next turned to the lower lobe. There was a large hematoma in the anterior basal segment of the right lower lobe extending on into the median basal segment. At one point there was a laceration in the surface of the lobe approximating a centimeter in length, undoubtedly caused by one of the penetrating rib fragments. A single mattress suture No. 3 O chromic gut of an atromitac needle was used to close this laceration from which blood was oozing.

Next, the diaphragm and all parts of the right mediastinum was examined but no injury was found.

The portion of the drainage tube which had already been placed. in the second interspace in the anterior axillary line which protruded into the chest was cut away, since it was deemed to be longer than necessary. A second drainage tube was placed through a stab wound in the eighth interspace in the posterior axillary line and both of these tubes were connected to a water sealed bottle. The fourth and fifth intercoastal muscle bundles were then approximated with interrupted sutures of No. O chromic gut.

The remaining portion of the serratus anterior muscle was then approximated across the closure of the intercostal muscles. The laceration at the latissimus dorsi muscle was then approximated with No. O chromic guts suture. Before closing the skin and subcutaneous tissue a stab wound approximately 2 cm. in length was made near the lower tip of the right scapula and a latex rubber drain was drawn up through this stab wound to drain subscapular space. This drain was marked with a safety pin. The subcutaneous tissue was then closed with interrupted sutures of No. O chromic gut, inverting the knots. The skin was closed with interrupted vertical mattress sutures of black silk.

Attention was next turned to the wound of entrance. The skin surrounding the wound was removed in an elliptical fashion, enlarging the incision to approximately 3 cm. Examination of the depths of this wound reveal that the latissimus dorsi muscle alone was injured, and the latex rubber drain could be felt immediately below the laceration in the muscle. A single mattress suture was used to close the laceration in the muscle. The skin was then closed with interrupted vertical mattress sutures of black silk. The drainage tubes going into the pleura cavity were then secured with safety pins and adhesive tape and a dressing applied to the entire incision. This concluded the operation for the wound of the chest, and at this point Dr. Gregory and Dr. Shires entered the operating room to care for the wounds of the right wrist and left thigh.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe, Dr. Shaw, as to the wound of the right wrist?

Dr. SHAW. Well, I would have to say that my observations are probably not accurate. I knew that the wound of the wrist had fractured the lower end of

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the right radius and I saw one large wound on the I guess you would call it the volar surface of the right arm and a small wound on the dorsum of the right wrist.

Mr. SPECTER. Which appeared to you to be the point of entrance, Dr. Shaw?

Dr. SHAW. To me, I felt that the wound of entrance was the wound on the volar surface or the anterior surface with the hand held in the upright or the supine position, with the wound of exit being the small wound on the dorsum.

Mr. SPECTER. What were the characteristics of those wounds which led you to that conclusion?

Dr. SHAW. Although the wound of entrance, I mean, although the wound that I felt was a wound of entrance was the larger of the two, it was my feeling that considering the large wound of exit from the chest, that this was consistent with the wound that I saw on the wrist. May we go off the record?

Mr. SPECTER. Sure.

(Discussion between Counsel Specter and the witness. Dr. Shaw off the record.)

Mr. SPECTER Now, let's go back on the record.

Dr. SHAW. I'll start by saying that my examination of the wrist was a cursory one because I realized that Dr. Gregory was going to have the responsibility of doing what was necessary surgically for this wrist.

Mr. SPECTER. Had you conferred with him preliminarily to starting your operation on the chest so that you knew he would be standing by, I believe as you testified earlier, to perform the wrist operation?

Dr. SHAW. Yes--Dr. Gregory was in the hallway of the operating room before I went in to operate on Governor Connally and while I was scrubbing preparatory to the operation, I told him that there was a compound comminuted fracture of the radius of the Governor's right hand that would need his attention.

Mr. SPECTER. Let the record show that while we were off the record here a moment ago, Dr. Shaw, you and I were discussing the possible angles at which the Governor might have been sitting in relation to a trajectory of a bullet consistent with the observations which you recollect and consistent with what seems to have been a natural position for the Governor to have maintained, in the light of your view of the situation. And with that in mind, let me resume the questioning and put on the record very much of the comments and observations you were making as you and I were discussing off the record as this deposition has proceeded.

Now, you have described a larger wound on the volar or palm side of the wrist than was present on the dorsal or back side of the wrist, and you have expressed the opinion that it was the point of entry on the volar side of the wrist as opposed to a point of exit on the back side of the wrist, even though as you earlier said, ordinarily the point of entry is smaller and the point of exit is larger.

Now, will you repeat for the record, Dr. Shaw, the thinking--your thinking which might explain a larger point of entry and a smaller point of exit on the wrist.

Dr. SHAW. Yes. As a matter of fact, when I first examined Governor Connally's wrist, I did not notice the small wound on the dorsum of the wrist and only saw the much larger wound on the radial side of the volar surface of the wrist. I didn't know about the second small wound until I came in when Dr. Gregory was concluding his operation on the wrist. He informed me that there was another small wound through the skin through which a missile had obviously passed.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, which wound was that, Dr. Shaw?

Dr. SHAW. This was the wound on the dorsum or the dorsal surface of the wrist.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you then observe that wound?

Dr. SHAW. Yes; I saw this wound.

Mr. SPECTER. And where was that wound located to the best of your recollection ?

Dr. SHAW. This wound was slightly more distal on the arm than the larger wound and located almost in the midportion of the dorsum of the wrist.

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Mr. SPECTER. Would that correspond with this location which I read from Dr. Gregory's report on the dorsal aspect of the right wrist over the junction of the distal fourth of the radius and shaft approximately 2 cm. in length.

Dr. SHAW. The wound was approximately 2 cm. in length?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes; would that correspond with the wound which you observed?

Dr. SHAW. Yes; I saw it at the time that he was closing it and that would correspond with the wound I observed.

Mr. SPECTER. He has described that as what he concluded to be the wound of entry on the dorsal aspect of the right wrist, but your thought was that perhaps that was the wound of exit?

Dr. SHAW. Yes; in trying to reconstruct the position of Governor Connally's body, sitting in the jump seat of the limousine, and the attitude that he would assume in turning to the right--this motion would naturally bring the polar surface of the right wrist in contact with the anterior portion of the right chest.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, is your principal reason for thinking that the wound on the dorsal aspect is a wound of exit rather than a wound of entry because of what you consider to be the awkward position in having the dorsal aspect of the wrist either pointing upward or toward the chest?

Dr. SHAW. Yes, I think I am influenced a great deal by the fact that in trying to assume this position, I can't comfortably turn my arm into a position that would explain the wound of the dorsal surface of the wrist as a wound of entrance, knowing where the missile came out of the chest and assuming that one missile caused both the chest wound and the arm wound.

Mr. SPECTER. Might not then that conclusion be affected if you discard the assumption that one missile caused all the wounds?

Dr. SHAW. Yes, if two missiles struck the Governor, then it would not be necessary to assume that the larger wound is the wound of entrance.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, would not another explanation for the presence of a wound on the dorsal aspect of the wrist be if the Governor were sitting in an upright position on the jump seat with his arm resting either on an arm rest inside the ear or on a window of the ear with the elbow protruding outward, and as he turned around, turning in a rotary motion, his wrist somewhat toward his body so that it was present in an angle of approximately 45 degrees to his body, being slightly moving toward his body.

Dr. SHAW. Well, I myself, am not able to get my arm into that position. If the wound, as I assume to be in the midportion of the forearm here and the wound of exit would be here (illustrating) I can't get my arm into that position as to correspond to what we know about the trajectory of the bullet into the chest.

Mr. SPECTER. Assuming that the bullet through the chest then also went

through the wrist?

Dr. SHAW. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, aside from the trajectory and the explanation of one bullet causing all the damage and focusing just on the nature of the wound on the wrist, what conclusion would you reach as to which was the point of entrance and which was the point of exit?

Dr. SHAW. I would feel that the wound on the polar surface of the wrist was the wound of entrance and that perhaps the bullet being partially spent by its passage through the chest wall, struck the radius, fragmenting it, but didn't pass through the wrist, and perhaps tumbled out into the clothing of Governor Connally with only a small fragment of this bullet passing on through the wrist to go out into the left thigh.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, would that be consistent with a fragment passing through the wrist which was so small that virtually the entire missile, or 158 grains of it, would remain in the central missile?

Dr. SHAW. Yes. The wound on the volar surface, I'm sorry, on the dorsum of the wrist and the wound in the thigh which was obviously a wound of entrance, since the fragment is still within the thigh, were not too dissimilar in size.

Mr. SPECTER. Was the wound in the thigh itself, that is, aside from the size

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of the fragment which remains in the leg, as small as the hole on the dorsal aspect of the wrist?

Dr. SHAW. My memory is that the wound in the thigh through the skin was about the same as the wound on the skin of the dorsum of the wrist, but I didn't make an accurate observation at the time.

Mr. SPECTER. Would your thinking on that be affected any if I informed you that Dr. Shires was of the view and bad the recollection that the wound on the thigh was much larger than a hole accounted for by the size of fragments which remained in the femur.

Dr. SHAW. Of course, Dr. Shires actually treated and closed this wound, but since this wound was made through the skin in a tangential manner--

Mr. SPECTER. Now, you are referring to the wound of the thigh?

Dr. SHAW. I am referring to the wound of the thigh--was made in a tangential manner, it did not go in at a direct right angle, the slit in the skin in the thigh could be considerably longer than the actual size of the missile itself, because this is a sharp fragment that would make a cutting--it would cause a laceration rather than a puncture wound.

Mr. SPECTER. So, the hole in the thigh would be consistent with a very small fragment in the femur?

Dr. SHAW. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, a moment ago I asked you what would be your opinion as to the point of entry and the point of exit based solely on the appearances of the holes on the dorsal and volar aspects of the wrist, and you responded that you still thought, or that you did think that the volar aspect was the point of entry with the additional thought that the missile might not have gone through the wrist, but only a fraction having gone through the wrist--now, my question is in giving that answer, did you consider at that time the hypothesis that the wound on the wrist was caused by the same missile which went through the Governor's chest, or was that answer solely in response to the characteristics of the wound on the wrist alone?

Dr. SHAW. I have always felt that the wounds of Governor Connally could be explained by the passage of one missile through his chest, striking his wrist and a fragment of it going on into his left thigh. I had never entertained the idea that he had been struck by a second missile.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, focusing for just a minute on the limited 'question of the physical characteristics of the wounds on the wrist, .if you had that and nothing more in this case to go on, what would your opinion be as to which point was entry and which point was exit?

Dr. SHAW. Ordinarily, we usually find the wound of entrance is smaller than the wound of exit. In the Governor's wound on the wrist, however, if the wound on the dorsum of the wrist is the wound of entrance, and this large missile passed directly through his radius, I'm not clear as to why there was not a larger wound of exit than there was.

Mr. SPECTER You mean on the volar aspect?

Dr. SHAW. Yes; if a whole bullet hit here

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating the dorsal aspect?

Dr. SHAW. Yes; and came out through here, why it didn't carry more bone out through the wrist than it did, and the bone was left in the wrist--the bone did not come out. In other words, when it struck the fifth rib it made a hole this big around (indicating) in the chest in carrying bone fragments out through the chest wall.

Mr. SPECTER. Wouldn't that same question arise if it went through the volar aspect and exited through the dorsal aspect?

Dr. SHAW. It wouldn't if you postulated that the bullet did not pass through the wrist, but struck the wrist.

Mr. SPECTER. That would be present in either event, though, if you postulated if the bullet struck the dorsal aspect of the wrist, and did not pass through, but only a missile passed through the volar aspect.

Dr. SHAW. Yes; in that case, however, considering the wound of exit from the chest, and if that same bullet went on through the wrist, I would still expect a pretty good wound of entrance.

Mr. SPECTER. You see, I am trying now, Dr. Shaw, to disassociate the thought

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that this is the same missile, so that I'm trying to look at it just from the physical characteristics of the appearance of the wounds on the two sides of the wrist.

Dr. SHAW. May we go off the record just a minute?

Mr. SPECTER. Sure off the record.

(Discussion between Counsel Specter and the witness, Dr. Shaw, off the record.)

Mr. SPECTER. Let us go back on the record and let the record reflect that we have been discussing another aspect concerning Dr. Shaw's thought that if the main missile had gone through the entire radius, that there would have been more damage, presumably, to the arteries and tendons on the underside of the wrist, and I then called Dr. Shaw's attention to one additional factor in Dr. Gregory's testimony which is reflected in his report that "on the radial' side of the arm, small fine bits of cloth consistent with fine bits of mohair were found," which was one of the reasons for Dr. Gregory's thinking that the path was from the dorsal

aspect to the volar aspect.

Dr. SHAW. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And Dr. Shaw's reply, if this is correct, Doctor, that you would know of no readily available explanation for that factor in the situation?

Dr. SHAW. Except that it might have been carried by the small fragment which obviously passed through the wrist and attached to that.

Mr. SPECTER. But could the fragment have carried it from the radial side on it if it had been traveling from the volar side to the radial side ?

Dr. SHAW. Yes; it could have carried it through. and deposited it on the way through.

Mr. SPECTER. I see, so it might have started. on the volar aspect and could have gone on through.

Dr. SHAW. You know, if we could get that suit of his, it would help a lot.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, we are going to examine clothing if at all possible.

Dr. SHAW. Because, I think it would have been almost impossible I think if you examine the clothing and if you had a hole here in his coat and no hole on this side----

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating a hole on the femur side----

Dr. SHAW. That would almost clear that thing up.

Mr. SPECTER. Yes; it would be very informational in our analysis of the situation.

Dr. SHAW. I doubt if there is a hole in both sides of the sleeve---the sleeve wouldn't be quite that long, I don't think.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw, my next question involves whether you have ever had a conversation with Governor Connally about the sequence of events of the day he was shot?

Dr. SHAW. Yes, we have talked on more than one occasion about this. The Governor admits that certain aspects of the whole incident are a bit hazy. He remembers hearing a shot. He recognized it as a rifle shot and turned to the right to see whether President Kennedy had been injured. He recognized that the President had been injured, but almost immediately, he stated, that he felt a severe shock to his right chest. He immediately experienced some difficulty in breathing, and as he stated to me, he thought that he had received a mortal wound.

Mr. SPECTER. Did he tell you why he thought the wound was mortal?

Dr. SHAW. He just knew that he was badly hit, as he expressed it.

Mr. SPECTER. Did he comment on whether or not he heard a second shot before he felt this wound in his chest?

Dr. SHAW. He says that he did not hear a second shot, but did hear---no, wait a minute, I shouldn't say that. He heard only two shots so that he doesn't know which shot other than the first one he did not hear. He only remembers hearing two shots, his wife says distinctly she heard three.

Mr. SPECTER. Mrs. Connally said she heard three?

Dr. SHAW. Mrs. Connally distinctly remembered three shots.

Mr. SPECTER. And, Governor Connally said he heard two shots?

Dr. SHAW. Two shots.

Mr. SPECTER. Would that not be consistent with a situation where he was hit by the second shot and lost consciousness?

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Dr. SHAW. Yes; the shock of the wounding might have prevented him from hearing the rifle report.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you have expected him to hear a third shot after he was wounded by a second shot?

Dr. SHAW. He didn't lose consciousness at that time, although he said he did lose consciousness during a part of the trip from the point of wounding to the hospital.

Mr. SPECTER. Did Governor Connally tell you whether or not he heard President Kennedy say anything?

Dr. SHAW. He said that all he heard was the President say, "Oh," that's the only thing he told me.

Mr. SPECTER. Did Mrs. Connally state whether or not she heard the President say anything?

Dr. SHAW. My memory isn't good for that. I don't remember what Mrs. Connally told me on that.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you continuing to treat Governor Connally at the present time?

Dr. SHAW. Yes, although the treatment of the chest is practically at an end, because the chest has reached a satisfactory state of healing.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you continue to treat the Governor all during his stay at Parkland Hospital ?

Dr. SHAW. Yes, I attended him several times daily.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw, would you think it consistent with the facts that you know as to Governor Connally's wounds that he could have been struck by the same bullet which passed through President Kennedy, assuming that a missile with the muzzle velocity of 2,000 feet per second, a 6.5-millimeter bullet, passed through President Kennedy at a distance of 160 to 250 feet from the rifle, passing through President Kennedy's body, entering on his back and striking only soft tissue and exiting on his neck; could that missile have also gone through Governor Connally's chest in your opinion ?

Dr. SHAW. Yes, taking your description of the first wound sustained by the President, which I, myself, did not observe, and considering the position of the two men in the limousine, I think it would be perfectly possible for the first bullet to have passed through the soft tissues of the neck of President Kennedy and produced the wounds that we found on Governor Connally.

Mr. SPECTER. Could that bullet then have produced all the wounds that you found on Governor Connally ?

Dr. SHAW. Yes, I would still be postulating that Governor Connally was struck by one missile.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, as you sit here at the moment on your postulation that Governor Connally was struck by one missile, is that in a way which is depicted by diagram No. 5 on the exhibit heretofore marked as "Dr. Gregory's Exhibit No. 1?"

Dr. SHAW. Yes; I feel that the line of trajectory as marked on this diagram is accurate as it could be placed from my memory of this wound.

Mr. SPECTER. And, on that trajectory;, how do you postulate the bullet then passed through the wrist from dorsal to volar or from volar to dorsal?

Dr. SHAW. My postulation would be from volar to dorsal.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, then, going back to diagram No. 1, Dr. Shaw, there is one factor that we did not call your attention to or have you testify about, and that is--the marking that the exit is on the volar side and the entry is on the dorsal side as it was remarked by Dr. Gregory, that would then be inconsistent of your view of the situation, would it not?

Dr. SHAW. Yes, it would be.

Mr. SPECTER. And similarly on diagram No. 3, where the exit is marked on the volar, and the entry is marked on the dorsal, that would also be inconsistent with your view of the situation ?

Dr. SHAW. Yes---he has the wound on the back being quite a bit larger than the wound on the front here, doesn't he?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes, the wound as it appears here on the diagram is larger.

Dr. SHAW. That wasn't my memory.

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Mr. SPECTER. But I don't think that that is necessarily as to scale in this situation. Would it be possible from your knowledge of the facts here, Dr. Shaw, that President Kennedy might have been struck by the bullet passing through him, hitting nothing but soft tissues, and that bullet could have passed through Governor Connally's chest and a second bullet might have struck Governor Connally's wrist?

Dr. SHAW. Yes; this is a perfectly tenable theory.

Mr. SPECTER. And, then, the damage to Governor Connally's thigh might have come from either of the bullets which passed through the chest or a second bullet which struck the wrist?

Dr. SHAW. That is true as far as the wounds are concerned, this theory, I feel, is tenable. It doesn't conform to the description of the sequence of the events as described by Mrs. Connally.

Mr. SPECTER. In what respect Dr. Shaw?

Dr. SHAW. Well she feels that the Governor was only struck by one bullet.

Mr. SPECTER. Why does she feel that way; do you know, sir?

Dr. SHAW. As soon as he was struck she pushed him to the bottom of the car and got on top of him and it would mean that there would be a period well if there were 5 1/2 seconds between the three shots, there would be a couple seconds there that would have given her time to get him down into the car, and as she describes the sequence, it is hard to see how he could have been struck by a second bullet.

Mr. SPECTER. If she pushed him down immediately after he was shot on the first occasion?

Dr. SHAW. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. But if her reaction was not that fast so that he was struck twice, of course then there would be a different situation, depending entirely on how fast she reacted.

Dr. SHAW. I think if he had been struck first in the wrist and not struck in the chest, he would have known that. He only remembers the hard blow to the back of his chest and doesn't remember being struck in the wrist at all.

Mr. SPECTER. Might he not have been struck in the chest first and struck by a subsequent shot in the wrist?

Dr. SHAW. Yes; but that's hard to postulate if he was down in the bottom of the car.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw, have you been interviewed by any representatives of

the Federal Government prior to today?

Dr. SHAW. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And who talked to you about this case?

Dr. SHAW. I don't have his name. I perhaps could find it. It was a member of the Secret Service.

Mr. SPECTER. On how many occasions were you talked to by a Secret Service man?

Dr. SHAW. Once.

Mr. SPECTER. And what did you tell him?

Dr. SHAW. I told him approximately the same that has been told in this transcript.

Mr. SPECTER. And prior to the time we started to go on the record with the court reporter taking this down verbatim, did you and I have a discussion bout the purpose of the deposition and the questions that I would ask you?

Dr. SHAW. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And were the answers which you provided me at that time the same as those which you have testified to on the record here this afternoon?

Dr. SHAW. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any other written record of the operation on Governor Connally other than that which has been identified here in Commission Exhibit No. 392?

Dr. SHAW. No; this is a copy of the operative record that went on to the chart of Governor Connally which is in the possession of the record room of Parkland Hospital.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything else which you could tell us which you think might be helpful to the Commission in any way, Dr. Shaw?

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Dr. SHAW. No; I believe that we have covered all of the points that are germane to this incident. Anything else that I would have would actually be hearsay.

Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much, sir, for appearing.

Dr. SHAW. All right, you are welcome.

Mr. SPECTER. Off the record.

(Discussion between Counsel Specter and the witness, Dr. Shaw, off the record.)

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw, permit me to ask you one or two more questions. Did you find any bullets in Governor Connally's body?

Dr. SHAW. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you find any fragments of bullets in his chest?

Dr. SHAW. No; only fragments of shattered rib.

Mr. SPECTER. And did you find, or do you know whether any fragment was found in his wrist or the quantity of fragments in his wrist?

Dr. SHAW. It is my understanding that only foreign material from the suit of Governor Connally was found in the wrist, although in the X-ray of the wrist there appeared to be some minute metallic fragments in the wrist.

Mr. SPECTER. As to the wound on the back of Governor Connally, was there any indication that the bullet was tumbling prior to the time it struck him?

Dr. SHAW. I would only have to say that I'm not a ballistics expert, but the wound on his chest was not a single puncture wound, it was long enough so that there might have been some tumbling.

Mr. SPECTER. You mean the wound on his back?

Dr. SHAW. The wound on his back--yes, it was long enough so that there might have been some tumbling. In other words, it was not a spherical puncture wound.

Mr. SPECTER. So it might have had some tumbling involved, or it might not have?

Dr. SHAW. Yes; I don't know whether the clothes would have occasioned this or not.

Mr. SPECTER. My question would be that perhaps some tumbling might have been involved as a result of decrease in velocity as the bullet passed through President Kennedy, whether there was any indication from the surface of the wound which would indicate tumbling.

Dr. SHAW. The wound entrance was an elliptical wound. In other words, it had a long diameter and a short diameter. It didn't have the appearance of a wound caused by a high velocity bullet that had not struck anything else; in other words, a puncture wound. Now, you have to also take into consideration, however, whether the bullet enters at a right angle or at a tangent. If it enters at a tangent there will be some length to the wound of entrance.

Mr. SPECTER. So, would you say in net that there could have been some tumbling occasioned by having it pass through another body or perhaps the oblique character of entry might have been occasioned by the angle of entry.

Dr. SHAW. Yes; either would have explained a wound of entry.

Mr. SPECTER. Fine, thank you very much, Doctor.

Dr. SHAW. Thank you.

Dr. Shaw

Volume IV

TESTIMONY OF DR. ROBERT ROEDER SHAW

Senator COOPER. The Commission will come to order.

Dr. Shaw, you understand that the purpose of this inquiry is taken under the order of the President appointing the Commission on the assassination of President Kennedy to investigate all the facts relating to his assassination.

Dr. SHAW. I do.

Senator COOPER. And report to the public.

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Dr. SHAW. I do.

Senator COOPER. Do you desire an attorney to be with you?

Dr. SHAW. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you state your full name for the record, please?

Dr. SHAW. Robert Roeder Shaw.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your profession, please?

Dr. SHAW. Physician and surgeon.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you outline briefly your educational background?

Dr. SHAW. I received my B.A. degree from the University of Michigan in 1927, and my M.D. degree from the same institution in 1933.

Following that I served 2 years at the Roosevelt Hospital in New York City from July 1934, to July 1936, in training in general surgery. I had then 2 years of training in thoracic surgery at the University Hospital, Ann Arbor, Mich., from July 1936 to July 1933.

On August 1, 1938, I entered private practice limiting my practice to thoracic surgery in Dallas, Tex.

Mr. DULLES. What kind of surgery?

Dr. SHAW. Thoracic surgery or surgery of the chest,

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I have practiced there continuously except for a period from June 1942, until December 1945, when I was a member of the Medical Corps of the Army of the United States serving principally in the European theater of operations.

I was away again from December 1961, until June of 1963, when I was head of the MEDICO team and performed surgery at Avicenna Hospital in Kabul, Pakistan.

Mr. DULLES. Will you tell us a little bit about MEDICO. Is that the ship?

Dr. SHAW. No; that is HOPE. MEDICO was formed by the late Dr. Tom Dooley.

Mr. DULLES. Yes; I know him very well. He was the man in Laos.

Dr. SHAW. Yes, sir; this was one of their projects.

Mr. DULLES. I see.

Dr. SHAW. I returned to----

Mr. DULLES. An interesting project.

Dr. SHAW. I returned to Dallas and on September 1, 1963, started working full time with the University of Texas Southwestern Medical School as professor of thoracic surgery and chairman of the division of thoracic surgery.

In this position I also am chief of thoracic surgery at Parkland Memorial Hospital in Dallas which is the chief hospital from the standpoint of the medical facilities of the school.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you licensed to practice medicine in the State of Texas?

Dr. SHAW. I am.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you certified?

Dr. SHAW. By the board of thoracic surgery you mean?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes; by the board of thoracic surgery.

Dr. SHAW. Yes; as of 1948.

Mr. SPECTER. What experience, if any, have you had, Dr. Shaw, with bullet wounds?

Dr. SHAW. I have had civilian experience, both in the work at Parkland Hospital, where we see a great amount of trauma, and much of this involves bullet wounds from homicidal attempts and accidents.

The chief experience I had, however, was during the Second World War when I was serving as chief of the thoracic surgery center in Paris, France. And during this particular experience we admitted over 900 patients with chest wounds of various sort, many of them, of course, being shell fragments rather than bullet wounds.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate as to the total number of bullet wounds you have had experience with?

Dr. SHAW. It would be approximately 1,000, considering the large number of admissions we had in Paris.

Mr. SPECTER What were your duties in a general way on November 22, 1963.

Dr. SHAW. On that particular date I had been at a conference at Woodlawn Hospital, which is our hospital for medical chest diseases connected with the medical school system. I had just gone to the Children's Hospital to see a small patient that I had done a bronchoscopy on a few days before and was returning to Parkland Hospital, and the medical school.

Woodlawn and the Children's Hospital are approximately a mile away from Parkland Hospital.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you called upon to render any aid to President Kennedy on November 22?

Dr. SHAW. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you called upon to render medical aid to Gov. John B. Connally on that day?

Dr. SHAW. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe briefly the circumstances surrounding your being called into the case.

Dr. SHAW. As I was driving toward the medical school I came to an intersection of Harry Hines Boulevard and Industrial Boulevard.

There is also a railroad crossing at this particular point. I saw an open limousine pass this point at high speed with a police escort. We were held up in traffic because of this escort Finally, when we were allowed to proceed,

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I went on to the medical school expecting to eat lunch. I had the radio on because it was the day that I knew the President was in Dallas and would be eating lunch at the Trade Mart which was not far away, and over the radio I heard the report that the President had been shot at while riding in the motorcade. I went on to the medical school and as I entered the medical school a student came in and joined three other students, and said the President has just been brought into the emergency room at Parkland, dead on arrival.

The students said, "You are kidding, aren't you?" and he said, "No, I am not. I saw him, and Governor Connally has-been shot through the chest."

Hearing that I turned and walked over to the emergency room, which is approximately 150 yards from. the medical school, and entered the emergency room.

Mr. SPECTER. At approximately what time did you arrive at the emergency room where Governor Connally was situated?

Dr. SHAW. As near as I could tell it was about 12:45.

Mr. SPECTER. Who was with Governor Connally, if anyone, at that time, Dr. Shaw?

Dr. SHAW. I immediately recognized two of the men who worked with me in thoracic surgery, Dr. James Duke and Dr. James Boland, Dr. Giesecke, who is an anesthesiologist, was also there along with a Dr. David Mebane who is an instructor in general surgery.

Mr. SPECTER. What was Governor Connally's condition at that time, based on your observations?

Dr. SHAW. The Governor was complaining bitterly of difficulty in breathing, and of pain in his right chest. Prior to my arriving there, the men had very properly placed a tight occlusive dressing over what on later examination proved to be a large sucking wound in the front of his right chest, and they had inserted a rubber tube between the second and third ribs in the front of the right chest, carrying this tube to what we call a water seal bottle.

Mr. SPECTER What was the purpose?

Dr. SHAW. Yes; this is done to reexpand the right lung which had collapsed due to the opening through the chest wall.

Mr. SPECTER. What wounds, if any, did you observe on the Governor at that time?

Dr. SHAW. I observed no wounds on the Governor at this time. It wasn't until he was taken to the operating room that I properly examined him from the standpoint of the wound.

Mr. SPECTER. How long after your initial viewing of him was he taken to the operating room?

Dr. SHAW. Within about 5 minutes. I stepped outside to talk to Mrs. Con-natty because I had been given information by Dr. Duke that blood had been drawn from the Governor, sent to the laboratory for cross-matching for blood that we knew would be necessary, that the operating room had already been alerted, and that they were ready and they were merely awaiting my arrival.

Mr. SPECTER. How was Governor Connally transported from the emergency room to the operating room?

Dr. SHAW. On a stretcher.

Mr. SPECTER. And was he transported up an elevator as well?

Dr. SHAW. Yes. It is two floors above the emergency rooms.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe what happened next in connection with Governor Connally's----

Mr. DULLES. Could I ask a question, putting in this tube is prior to making an incision?

Dr. SHAW. Yes; a stab wound.

Mr. DULLES. Just a stab wound?

Dr. SHAW. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. What treatment next followed for Governor Connally, Doctor?

Dr. SHAW. He was taken to the operating room and there Dr. Giesecke started the anesthesia. This entails giving an intravenous injection of sodium pentothal and then after the Governor was asleep a gas was used, that will be on the anesthetic record there.

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Mr. SPECTER. Do you know at approximately what time this procedure was started?

Dr. SHAW. I will have to refresh my memory again from the record. We had at the time I testified before, we had the

Mr. SPECTER. Permit me to make available to you a copy of the Parkland Memorial Hospital operative record and let me ask you, first of all, if you can identify these two pages on an exhibit heretofore marked as Commission Exhibit 392 as to whether or not this constitutes your report?

Dr. SHAW. Yes; this is a transcription of my dictated report of the operation.

Mr. SPECTER. Are the facts set forth therein true and correct?

Dr. SHAW. Yes. On this it states that the operation itself was begun at 1300 hours or 1 o'clock, 1 p.m., and that the actual surgery started at 1335 or 1:35 p.m.

The operation was concluded by me at 3--1520 which would be 3:20 p.m.

Mr. SPECTER. You have described, in a general way, the chest wound. What other wounds, if any, was Governor Connally suffering from at the time you saw him?

Dr. SHAW. I will describe then the wound of the wrist which was obvious. He had a wound of the lower right forearm that I did not accurately examine because I had already talked to Dr. Gregory while I was scrubbing for the operation, told him that this wound would need his attention as soon as we were able to get the chest in a satisfactory condition. There was also, I was told, I didn't see the wound, on the thigh, I was told that there was a small wound on the thigh which I saw later.

Mr. SPECTER. When did you first have an opportunity then to examine Governor Connally's wound on the posterior aspect of his chest?

Dr. SHAW. After the Governor had been anesthetized. As soon as he was asleep so we could manipulate him--before that time it was necessary for an endotracheal tube to be in place so his respirations could be controlled before we felt we could roll him over and accurately examine the wound entrance. We knew this was the wound exit.

Mr. SPECTER. This [indicating an area below the right nipple on the body]?

Dr. SHAW. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. How did you know it was a wound exit.

Dr. SHAW. By the fact of its size, the ragged edges of the wound. This wound was covered by a dressing which could not be removed until the Governor was anesthetized.

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating this wound, the wound on the Governor's chest?

Dr. SHAW. Yes; the front part.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe in as much detail as you can the wound on the posterior side of the Governor's chest?

Dr. SHAW. This was a small wound approximately a centimeter and a half in its greatest diameter. It was roughly elliptical. It was just medial to the axilliary fold or the crease of the armpit, but we could tell that this wound, the depth of the wound, had not penetrated the shoulder blade.

Mr. SPECTER. What were the characteristics, if any, which indicated to you that it was a wound of entrance then?

Dr. SHAW. Its small size, and the rather clean cut edges of the wound as compared to the usual more ragged wound of exit.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, I hand you a diagram which is a body diagram on Commission Exhibit No. 679, and ask you if, on the back portion of the figure, that accurately depicts the point of entry into Governor Connally's back?

Dr. SHAW. Yes. The depiction of the point of entry, I feel is quite accurate.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, with respect to the front side of the body, is the point of exit accurately shown on the diagram?

Dr. SHAW. The point is----

Mr. SPECTER. We have heretofore, may the record show the deposition covered much the same ground with Dr. Shaw, but the diagrams used now are new diagrams which will have to be remarked in accordance with your recollection.

Dr. SHAW. Yes. Because I would have to place they are showing here the angle.

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Mr. DULLES. Is this all on the record?

Mr. SPECTER. It should be.

Dr. SHAW. We are showing on this angle, the cartilage angle which it makes at the end of the sternum.

Mr. SPECTER. That is an inverted V which appears in front of the body?

Dr. SHAW. Now the wound was above that. They have shown it below that point so the wound would have to be placed here as far as the point is concerned.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you draw on that diagram a more accurate depiction of where the wound of exit occurred?

Dr. SHAW. Do you want me to initial this?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes; if you please, Dr. Shaw.

I hand you another body diagram marked Commission Exhibit 680 and I will ask you if that accurately depicts the angle of decline as the bullet passed through Governor Connally?

Dr. SHAW. I think the declination of this line is a little too sharply downward. I would place it about 5° off that line.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you redraw the line then, Dr. Shaw, and initial it, indicating the more accurate angle?

Dr. SHAW. The reason I state this is that as they have shown this, it would place the wound of exit a little too far below the nipple. Also it would, since the bullet followed the line of declination of the fifth rib, it would make the ribs placed in a too slanting position.

Mr. SPECTER. What operative procedures did you employ in caring for the wound of the chest, Dr. Shaw.

Dr. SHAW. The first measure was to excise the edges of the wound of exit in an elliptical fashion, and then this incision was carried in a curved incision along the lateral portion of the right chest up toward the right axilla in order to place the skin incision lower than the actual path of the bullet through the chest wall.

After this incision had been carried down to the level of the muscles attached to the rib cage, all of the damaged muscle which was chiefly the serratus anterior muscle which digitates along the fifth rib at this position, was cleaned away, cut away with sharp dissection.

As soon as--of course, this incision had been made, the opening through the parietal pleura, which is the lining of the inside of the chest was very obvious. It was necessary to trim away several small fragments of the rib which were still hanging to tags of periosteum, the lining of the rib, and the ragged ends of the rib were smoothed off with a rongeur.

Mr. SPECTER. What damage had been inflicted upon a rib, if any, Dr. Shaw?

Mr. SPECTER. What is the texture of the rib at the point where the missile struck?

Dr. SHAW. The texture of the rib here is not of great density. The cortex of the rib in the lateral portions of our ribs, is thin with the so-called cancellus portion of the rib being very spongy, offering very little resistance to pressure or to fracturing.

Mr. SPECTER. What effect, if any, would the striking of that rib have had to the trajectory of the bullet?

Dr. SHAW. It could have had a slight, caused a slight deflection of the rib, but probably not a great deflection of the rib, because of the angle at which it struck and also because of the texture of the rib at this time.

Mr. SPECTER. You say deflection of the rib or deflection of the bullet?

Dr. SHAW. Deflection of the bullet, I am sorry.

Mr. SPECTER. Was any metallic substance from the bullet left in the thoracic cage as a result of the passage of the bullet through the Governor's body?

Dr. SHAW. No. We saw no evidence of any metallic material in the X-ray that we had of the chest, and we found none during the operation.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you brought the X-rays with you, Dr. Shaw, from Parkland Hospital?

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Dr. SHAW. Yes; we have them here.

Mr. SPECTER. May the record show we have available a viewer for the X-rays.

Dr. Shaw, would you, by use of the viewer, exhibit the X-rays of the Governor's chest to show more graphically that which you have heretofore described?

Dr. SHAW. This is the first X-ray that was taken, which was taken in the operating room with the Governor on the operating table, and at this time anesthetized. The safety pin that you see here is used, was used, to secure the tube which had been put between the second and third rib in expanding the Governor's lung.

We can dimly see also the latex rubber tube up in the chest coming to the apex of the chest.

The variations that we see from normal here are the fact that first, there is a great amount of swelling in the chest wall which we know was due to bleeding and bruising of the tissues of the chest wall, and we also see that there is air in the tissues of the chest wall here and here. It is rather obvious.

Mr. SPECTER. When you say here and here, you are referring to the outer portions, showing on the X-ray moving up toward the shoulder area?

Dr. SHAW. Yes; going from the lower chest up to the region near the angle of the shoulder blade.

The honey framework of the chest, it is obvious that the fifth rib, we count ribs from above downward, this is the first rib, second rib, third rib, fourth rib, fifth rib, that a portion of this rib has been shattered, and we can see a few fragments that have been left behind.

Also the rib has because of being broken and losing some of its substance, has taken a rather inward position in relation to the fourth and the sixth ribs on either side.

Mr. SPECTER. What effect was there, if any, on the upper portion of that rib?

Dr. SHAW. This was not noticed at the time of this examination, Mr. Specter. However, in subsequent examinations we can tell that there was a fracture across the rib at this point due to the rib being struck and bent.

Mr. SPECTER. When you say this point, will you describe where that point exists on the X-ray?

Dr. SHAW. This is a point approximately 4 centimeters from its connection with the transverse process of the spine.

Mr. SPECTER. And is the fracture, which is located there, caused by a striking there or by the striking at the end of the rib?

Dr. SHAW. It is caused by the striking at the end of the rib.

Mr. SPECTER. Fine. What else then is discernible from the viewing of the X-ray, Dr. Shaw?

Dr. SHAW. There is a great amount of, we would say, obscuration of the lower part of the right lung field which we know from subsequent examination was due to blood in the pleural cavity and also due to a hematoma in the lower part of the right lower lobe and also a severe laceration of the middle lobe with it having lost its ability to ventilate at that time. So, we have both an airless lung, and blood in the lung to account for these shadows.

Mr. SPECTER. Is there anything else visible from the X-ray which is helpful in our understanding of the Governor's condition?

Dr. SHAW. No; I don't think so.

Mr. SPECTER. Would it be useful--As to that X-ray, Dr. Shaw, will you tell us what identifying data, if any, it has in the records of Parkland Hospital, for the record?

Dr. SHAW. On this X-ray it has in pencil John G. Connally.

Mr. SPECTER. Is that G or C?

Dr. SHAW. They have a "G" November 22, 1963, and it has a number 218-922.

Mr. SPECTER. Were those X-rays taken under your supervision?

Dr. SHAW. Yes, by a technician.

Mr. SPECTER. And that is, in fact, the X-ray then which was taken of Governor Connally at the time these procedures were being performed?

Dr. SHAW. It is.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw, would any of the other X-rays be helpful in our understanding of the Governor's condition?

Dr. SHAW. I believe the only--perhaps showing one additional X-ray would

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show the fracture previously described which was not easily discernible on the first film. This is quite often true but not important to the here is the fracture that can be easily seen.

Mr. SPECTER. You are now referring to a separate and second X-ray.

Dr. SHAW. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you start out by telling us on what date this X-ray was performed.

Dr. SHAW. This X-ray was made on the 29th of November 1963. 7 days following the incident.

Mr. SPECTER. What does it show of significance?

Dr. SHAW. It shows that there has been considerable clearing in the lower portion of the lung, and also that there is a fracture of the fifth rib as previously described approximately 4 centimeters from the transverse process posteriorly.

Mr. SPECTER. Is there anything else depicted by that X-ray of material assistance in evaluating the Governor's wound?

Dr. SHAW. No.

Mr. McCLOY. Were there any photographs taken as distinguished from X-rays of the body?

Dr. SHAW. There were no photographs.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw, we shall then, subject to the approval of the Commission, for the record, have the X-rays reproduced at Parkland Memorial Hospital, and, if possible, also have a photograph of the X-ray made for the permanent records of the Commission to show the actual X-ray, which Dr. Shaw has described during his testimony here this afternoon.

Senator COOPER. It is directed that it be made a part of the record of these hearings.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw, what additional operative procedures did you perform on Governor Connally's chest?

Dr. SHAW. I will continue with my description of the operative procedure. The opening that had been made through the rib after the removal of the fragments was adequate for further exploration of the pleural cavity. A self-retaining retractor was put into place to maintain exposure. Inside the pleural cavity there were approximately 200 cc. of clotted blood.

It was found that the middle lobe had been lacerated with the laceration dividing the lobe into roughly two equal parts. The laceration ran from the lower tip of the middle lobe up into its root or hilum.

However, the lobe was not otherwise damaged, so that it could he repaired using a running suture of triple zero chromic catgut.

The anterior basal segments of the right lower lobe had a large hematoma, and blood was oozing out of one small laceration that was a little less than a centimeter in length, where a rib fragment had undoubtedly been driven into the lobe. To control hemorrhage a single suture of triple zero chromic gut was placed in this laceration. There were several small matchstick size fragments of rib within the pleural cavity. Examination, however, of the pericardium of the diaphragm and the upper lobe revealed no injury to these parts of the chest.

A drain was placed in the eighth space in the posterior axillary line similar to the drain which had been placed in the second interspace in the front of the chest.

The drain in the front of the chest was thought to be a little too long so about 3 centimeters of it were cut away.

Attention was then turned on the laceration of the latissimus dorsi muscle where the missile had passed through it. Several sutures of chromic gut where used to repair this muscle.

The incision was then closed with interrupted No. zero chromic gut in the muscles of the chest wall--first, I am sorry, in the intercostale muscle, and muscles of the chest wall, and the same suture material was used to close the serratus anterior muscle in the subcutaneous tissue, and interrupted vertical sutures of black silk were used to close the skin.

Attention was then turned to the wound of entrance which, as previously described, was about a centimeter and a half in its greatest diameter, roughly

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elliptical in shape. The skin edges of this wound were incised excised, I beg your pardon--I have to go back just a little bit.

Prior to examination of this wound, a stab wound was made at the angle of the scapula to place a drain in the subscapular space. In the examination of the wound of entrance, the examining finger could determine that this drain was immediately under the wound of entrance, so that it was adequately draining the space.

Two sutures were placed in the facia of the muscle, and the skin was closed with interrupted vertical matching sutures of black silk.

That concluded the operation. Both tubes were connected to a water seal bottle, and the dressing was applied.

Mr. SPECTER. Who was in charge then of the subsequent care on the Governor's wrist?

Dr. SHAW. Dr. Charles Gregory who had been previously alerted and then came in to take care of the wrist.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, with respect to the wound on the wrist, did you have any opportunity to examine it by way of determining points of entry and exit?

Dr. SHAW. My examination of the wrist was a very cursory one. I could tell that there was a compound comminuted fracture because there was motion present, and there was a ragged wound just over the radius above the wrist joint. But that was the extent of my examination of the wrist.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw, did I take your deposition at Parkland Memorial Hospital on March 23 of 1964?

Dr. SHAW. Yes; you did.

Mr. SPECTER. Has that deposition been made available to you?

Dr. SHAW. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. To you here this afternoon?

Dr. SHAW. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you subsequent to the giving of that deposition on March 23, 1964, had an opportunity to examine Governor Connally's clothing which we have available in the Commission room here today?

Dr. SHAW. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, based on all facts now within your knowledge, is there any modification which you would care to make in terms of the views which you expressed about entrance and exit wounds back on March 23, based on the information which was available to you at that time?

Dr. SHAW. From an examination of the clothing, it is very obvious that the wound of entrance was through the coat sleeve.

Mr. SPECTER. While you are testifying in that manner, perhaps it would be helpful if we would make available to you the actual Jacket, if it pleases the Commission.

We shall reserve Exhibits Nos. 681 for the X-ray of November 22; 682 for the X-ray of November 29; and we shall now mark a photograph of the coat for our permanent records as "Commission Exhibit No. 683".

Dr. Shaw, I hand you at this time what purports to be the coat worn by Governor Connally, which we introduce subject to later proof when Governor Connally appears later this afternoon; and, for the record, I ask you first of all if this photograph, designated as Commission Exhibit No. 683, is a picture of this suit coat?

Dr. SHAW. It is.

Mr. SPECTER. I had interrupted you when you started to refer to the hole in the sleeve of the coat. Will you proceed with what you were testifying about there?

Dr. SHAW. The hole in the sleeve of the coat is within hall a centimeter of the very edge of the sleeve, and lies----

Mr. DULLES. This is the right sleeve, is it not?

Dr. SHAW. I am sorry, yea Thank you. Of the right sleeve, and places it, if the coat sleeve was in the same position, assuming it is in the same position that my coat sleeve is in, places it directly over the lateral portion of the wrist, really not directly on the volar or the dorsum of the surface of the wrist,

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but on the lateral position or the upper position, as the wrist is held in a neutral position.

Mr. SPECTER. With the additional information provided by the coat, would that enable you to give an opinion as to which was the wound of entrance and which the wound of exit on the Governor's wrist?

Dr. SHAW. There is only one tear in the Governor's garment as far as the appearance of the tear is concerned, I don't think I could render an opinion as to whether this is a wound of entrance or exit.

Mr. SPECTER. Then, do you have sufficient information at your disposal in total, based on your observations and what you know now to give any meaningful opinion as to which was the wound of entrance and which the wound of exit on the Governor's wrist?

Dr. SHAW. I would prefer to have Dr. Gregory testify about that, because he has examined it more carefully than I have.

Mr. SPECTER. Fine.

Mr. DULLES. Could you tell at all how the arm was held from that mark or that hole in the sleeve?

Dr. SHAW. Mr. Dulles, I thought I knew Just how the Governor was wounded until I saw the pictures today, and it becomes a little bit harder to explain.

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating the right hand held close to the body?

Dr. SHAW. Yes, and this is still a possibility. But I don't feel that it is the only possibility.

Senator COOPER. Why do you say you don't think it is the only possibility? What causes you now to say that it is the location----

Dr. SHAW. This is again the testimony that I believe Dr. Gregory will be giving, too. It is a matter of whether the wrist wound could be caused by the same bullet, and we felt that it could but we had not seen the bullets until today, and we still do not know which bullet actually inflicted the wound on Governor Connally.

Mr. DULLES. Or whether it was one or two wounds?

Dr. SHAW. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. Or two bullets?

Dr. SHAW. Yes; or three.

Mr. DULLES. Why do you say three?

Dr. SHAW. He has three separate wounds. He has a wound in the chest, a wound of the wrist, a wound of the thigh.

Mr. DULLES. Oh, yes; we haven't. come to the wound of the thigh yet, have we?

Mr. McCLOY. You have no firm opinion that all these three wounds were caused by one bullet?

Dr. SHAW. I have no firm opinion.

Mr. McCLOY. That is right.

Dr. SHAW. Asking me this now if it was true. If you had asked me a month ago I would have.

Mr. DULLES. Could they have been caused by one bullet, in your opinion?

Dr. SHAW. They could.

Mr. McCLOY. I gather that what the witness is saying is that it is possible that. they might have been caused by one bullet. But that he has no firm opinion now that they were.

Mr. DULLES. As I understand it too. Is our understanding correct?

Dr. SHAW. That is correct.

Senator COOPER. When you say all three are you referring to the wounds you have just described to the chest, the wound in the wrist, and also the wound in the thigh?

Dr. SHAW. Yes.

Senator COOPER. It was possible?

Dr. SHAW. Our original assumption, Senator Cooper, was that the Governor was approximately in this attitude at the time he was----

Senator COOPER. What attitude is that now?

Dr. SHAW. This is an attitude sitting in a jump seat as we know he was,

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upright, with his right forearm held across the lower portion of the chest. In this position, the trajectory of the bullet could have caused the wound of entrance, the wound of exit, struck his wrist and proceeded on into the left thigh. But although this is a possibility, I can't give a firm opinion that this is the actual way in which it occurred.

Mr. SPECTER. If it pleases the Commission, we propose to go through that in this testimony; and we have already started to mark other exhibits in sequence on the clothing. So that it will be more systematic, we plan to proceed with the identification of clothing and then go on to the composite diagram which explains the first hypothesis of Dr. Shaw and the other doctors of Park- land. And then proceed from that, as I intend to do, with an examination of the bullet, which will explore the thinking of the doctor on that subject.

Dr. Shaw, for our record, I will hand you Commission Exhibit No. 684 and ask you if that is a picture of the reverse side of the coat, which we will later prove to have been worn by Governor Connally, the coat which is before you?

Dr. SHAW. It is.

Mr. SPECTER. What, if anything, appears on the back of that coat and also on the picture in line with the wound which you have described on the Governor's posterior chest?

Dr. SHAW. The picture the coat and the picture of the coat, show a rent in the back of the coat approximately 2- centimeters medial to the point where the sleeve has been joined to the main portion of the garment.

The lighter-colored material of the lining of the coat can be seen through this rent in the coat.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw, I show you a shirt, subject to later proof that it was the shirt worn by Governor Connally, together with a photograph marked "Commission Exhibit No. 685," and ask you if that is a picture of that shirt, the back side of the shirt?

Dr. SHAW. Yes; it is a picture of the back side of the shirt. However, in this particular picture I am not able to make out the hole in the shirt very well.

Now I see it, I believe; yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe the hole as you see it to exist in the shirt? Aside from what you see on the picture, what hole do you observe on the back of the shirt itself?

Dr. SHAW. On the back of the shirt itself there is a hole, a punched out area of the shirt which is a little more than a centimeter in its greater diameter. The whole shirt is soiled by brown stains which could have been due to blood.

Mr. SPECTER. How does the hole in the back of the shirt correspond with the wound on the Governor's back?

Dr. SHAW. It does correspond exactly.

Mr. SPECTER. Now turning the same shirt over to the front side, I ask you if the photograph, marked "Commission Exhibit No. 386," is a picture of the front side of this shirt?

Dr. SHAW. It is.

Mr. SPECTER. What does the picture of the shirt show with respect to a hole, if any, on the right side of the front of the shirt?

Dr. SHAW. The picture and the shirt show on the right side a much larger rent in the garment with the rent being approximately 4 centimeters in its largest diameter.

Mr. SPECTER. What wound, if any, did the Governor sustain on his thigh, Dr. Shaw?

Mr. DULLES. Just one moment, are you leaving this?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. I wonder whether or not it would not be desirable for the doctor to put on this photograph where these holes are, because they are not at all clear for the future if we want to study those photographs.

Dr. SHAW. This one is not so hard.

Mr. DULLES. That one appears but the other one doesn't appear and I think it would be very helpful.

Dr. SHAW. How would you like to have me outline this?

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Mr. SPECTER. Draw a red circle of what you conceive to be the hole there, Doctor.

Mr. DULLES. The actual hole is not nearly as big as your circle, it is the darkened area inside that circle, is it not?

Dr. SHAW. Yes; the darkened area is enclosed by the circle.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you able to note on the photograph of the back of the shirt, 685?

Will you draw a red circle around the area of the hole on the photograph then, Dr. Shaw?

Mr. DULLES. Would you just initial those two circles, if you can.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw, what wounds, if any, did the Governor sustain on his left thigh?

Dr. SHAW. He sustained a small puncture-type wound on the medial aspect of the left thigh.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have an opportunity to examine that closely?

Dr. SHAW. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have an opportunity to examine it sufficiently to ascertain its location on the left thigh?

Dr. SHAW. No; I didn't examine it that closely, except for its general location.

Mr. SPECTER. Where was it with respect to a general location then on the Governor's thigh?

Dr. SHAW. It is on the medial anterior aspect of the thigh.

Mr. DULLES. Nontechnically, what does it mean?

Dr. SHAW. Well, above, slightly above, between, in other words, the medial aspect would be the aspect toward the middle of the body, but as far as being how many centimeters or inches it is from the knee and the groin, I am not absolutely sure.

Mr. SPECTER. I now show you a pair of trousers which we shall later identify as being those worn by the Governor. I will, first of all, ask you if a photograph bearing Commission Exhibit No. 687 is a picture of those trousers?

Dr. SHAW. It is.

Mr. SPECTER. And what hole, if any did you observe on the trousers and on the picture of the trousers?

Dr. SHAW. There is a hole in the garment that has been made by some instrument which has carried away a part of the Governor's garment. In other words, it is not a tear but is a punched out hole, and this is approximately 4 centimeters on the inner aspect from the crease of the trousers.

Mr. DULLES. Can you tell where the knee is there and how far above the knee approximately?

Dr. SHAW. I can't tell exactly.

Mr. DULLES. I guess you can't tell.

Dr. SHAW. From the crotch I would say it would be slightly, it is a little hard to tell, slightly more toward the knee than the groin.

Mr. SPECTER. Does that hole in the left leg of the trousers match up to the wound on the left thigh of the Governor?

Dr. SHAW. To the best of my recollection it does.

Mr. DULLES. Are there any other perforations in these trousers at all, any other holes?

Dr. SHAW. No.

Mr. DULLES. So that means that whatever made the hole on the front side did not come through and make a hole anywhere else in the trousers?

Dr. SHAW. That is correct. It had to be a penetrating wound and not a perforating wound, it didn't go on through.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you turn those trousers over, Dr. Shaw?

Dr. SHAW. I believe we had already looked at it.

Mr. SPECTER. On the reverse side, and state whether or not this picture bearing Commission Exhibit No. 688 accurately depicts the reverse side of the trousers?

Dr. SHAW. Yes; it does.

Mr. SPECTER. Is there any hole shown either on the picture or on the trousers themselves?

Dr. SHAW. No.

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Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw, I now show you a body diagram which is marked "Commission Exhibit No. 689."

Senator COOPER. May I ask a question before you ask that question?

When you first saw Governor Connally in the emergency room was he dressed or undressed?

Dr. SHAW. His trousers were still on. He had his shorts on, I should say, Senator Cooper, but his coat, shirt, and trousers had been removed.

Mr. SPECTER. Were his clothes anywhere in the vicinity where you could have seen them?

Dr. SHAW. No; I never saw them. This is the first time that I saw them.

Mr. SPECTER. That is earlier today when you examined them in this room?

Dr. SHAW. That is Correct.

Dr. SHAW. That is Correct.

Mr. SPECTER. With reference to that diagram, would you explain the position that you had earlier thought the Governor to have been in when he was wounded here?

Dr. SHAW. We felt that the Governor was in an upright sitting position, and at the time of wounding was turning slightly to the right. This would bring the three wounds, as we know them, the wound in the chest, the wound in the wrist, and the wound in the thigh into a line assuming that the right forearm was held against the lower right chest in front.

The line of inclination of this particular diagram is a little more sharply downward than is probably correct in view of the inclination of the ribs of the chest.

Dr. SHAW. The fact that the muscle bundles on either side of the fifth rib were not damaged meant that the missile to strip away 10 centimeters of the rib had to follow this rib pretty much along its line of inclination.

Mr. DULLES. I wonder if you could use that red pencil to make it a little clearer for us?

Dr. SHAW. I think these would probably work well on this paper. Perhaps this isn't a tremendous paint but it slopes just a little too much.

Mr. SPECTER. You have initialed that to show your incline?

Dr. SHAW. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. With respect to the wound you described on the thigh, Dr. Shaw, was there any point of exit as to that wound?

Dr. SHAW. No.

Mr. SPECTER. I now show you----

Mr. DULLES. Could I ask one more question there, how deep was the wound of entry, could you tell at all?

Dr. SHAW. Mr. Dulles, I didn't examine the wound of the thigh so I can't testify as to that. Dr. Gregory, I think, was there at the time that the debris was carried out and he may have more knowledge than I have.

Mr. DULLES. We will hear Dr. Gregory later?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes; he is scheduled to testify as soon as Dr. Shaw concludes.

Dr. Shaw, I now show you Commission Exhibit 399 which has heretofore been identified as being a virtually whole bullet weighing 158 grains.

May I say for the record, that in the depositions which have been taken in Parkland Hospital, that we have ascertained, and those depositions are part of the overall record, that is the bullet which came from the stretcher of Governor Connally.

First, Dr. Shaw, have you had a chance to examine that bullet earlier today?

Dr. SHAW. Yes; I examined it this morning.

Mr. SPECTER. Is it possible that the bullet which went through the Governor's chest could have emerged being as fully intact as that bullet is?

Dr. SHAW. Yes; I believe it is possible because of the fact that the bullet

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struck the fifth rib at a very acute angle and struck a portion of the rib which would not offer a great amount of resistance.

Mr. SPECTER. Does that bullet appear to you to have any of its metal flaked off?

Dr. SHAW. I have been told that the one point on the nose of this bullet that is deformed was cut off for purposes of examination. With that information, I would have to say that this bullet has lost literally none of its substance.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, as to the wound on the thigh, could that bullet have gone into the Governor's thigh without causing any more damage than appears on the face of that bullet?

Dr. SHAW. If it was a spent bullet; yes. As far as the bullet is concerned it could have caused the Governor's thigh wound as a spent missile.

Mr. SPECTER. Why do you say it is a spent missile, would you elaborate on what your thinking is on that issue?

Dr. SHAW. Only from what I have been told by Dr. Shires and Dr. Gregory, that the depth of the wound was only into the subcutaneous tissue, not actually into the muscle of the leg, so it meant that missile had penetrated for a very short period. Am I quoting you correctly, Dr. Gregory?

Mr. SPECTER. May the record show Dr. Gregory is present during this testimony and----

Dr. GREGORY. I will say yes.

Dr. SHAW. I do not.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw, assume if you will certain facts to be true in hpyothetical form, that is, that the President was struck in the upper portion of the back or lower portion of the neck with a 6.5-mm. missile passing between the strap muscles of the President's neck, proceeding through a facia channel striking no bones, not violating the pleural cavity, and emerging through the anterior third of the neck, with the missile having been fired from a weapon having a muzzle velocity of approximately 2,000 feet per second, with the muzzle being approximately 160 to 250 feet from the President's body; that the missile was a copper jacketed bullet. Would it be possible for that bullet to have then proceeded approximately 4 or 5 feet and then would it be possible for it to have struck Governor Connally in the back and have inflicted the wound which you have described on the posterior aspect of his chest, and also on the anterior aspect of his chest?

Dr. SHAW. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And what would your reason be for giving an affirmative answer to that question, Dr. Shaw?

Dr. SHAW. Because I would feel that a missile with this velocity and weight striking no more than the soft tissues of the neck would have adequate velocity and mass to inflict the wound that we found on the Governor's chest.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, without respect to whether or not the bullet identified as Commission Exhibit 399 is or is not the one which inflicted the wound on the Governor, is it possible that a missile similar to the one which I have just described in the hypothetical question could have inflicted all of the Governor's wounds in accordance with the theory which you have outlined on Commission Exhibit No. 689?

Dr. SHAW. Assuming that it also had passed through the President's neck you mean?

Mr. SPECTER. No; I had not added that factor in. I will in the next question.

Mr. SPECTER. Your answer there, though, depends upon the assumption that the bullet which we have identified as Exhibit 399 is the bullet which did the

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damage to the Governor. Aside from whether or not that is the bullet which inflicted the Governor's wounds.

Dr. SHAW. I see.

Mr. SPECTER. Could a bullet traveling in the path which I have described in the prior hypothetical question, have inflicted nil of the wounds on the Governor?

Dr. SHAW. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And so far as the velocity and the dimension of the bullet are concerned, is it possible that the same bullet could have gone through the President in the way that I have described and proceed through the Governor causing all of his wounds without regard to whether or not it was bullet 399?

Dr. SHAW. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. When you started to comment about it not being possible, was that in reference to the existing mass and shape of bullet 399?

Dr. SHAW. I thought you were referring directly to the bullet shown as Exhibit 399.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your opinion as to whether bullet 399 could have inflicted all of the wounds on the Governor, then, without respect at this point to the wound of the President's neck?

Dr. SHAW. I feel that there would be some difficulty in explaining all of the wounds as being inflicted by bullet Exhibit 399 without causing more in the way of loss of substance to the bullet or deformation of the bullet.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw, have you had an opportunity today here in the Cornmission building to view the movies which we referred to as the Zapruder movies and the slides taken from these movies?

Dr. SHAW. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And what, if any, light did those movies shed on your evaluation and opinions on this matter with respect to the wounds of the Governor?

Dr. SHAW. Well, my main interest was to try to place the time that the Governor was struck by the bullet which inflicted the wound on his chest in reference to the sequence of the three shots, as has been described to us.

(At this point the Chief Justice entered the hearing room.)

This meant trying to carefully examine the position of the Governor's body in the car so that it would fall in line with what we knew the trajectory must be for this bullet coming from the point where it has been indicated it did come from. And in trying to place this actual frame that these frames are numbered when the Governor was hit, my opinion was that it was frame number, let's see, I think it was No. 36.

Mr. SPECTER 236?

Dr. SHAW. 236, give or take 1 or 2 frames. It was right in 35, 36, 37, perhaps.

Mr. SPECTER. I have heretofore asked you questions about what possibly could have happened in terms of the various combinations of possibilities on missiles striking the Governor in relationship to striking the President as well. Do you have any opinion as to what, in fact, did happen?

Dr. SHAW. Yes. From the pictures, from the conversation with Governor Connally and Mrs. Connally, it seems that the first bullet hit the President in the shoulder and perforated the neck, but this was not the bullet that Governor Connally feels hit him; and in the sequence of films I think it is hard to say that the first bullet hit both of these men almost simultaneously.

Mr. SPECTER. Is that view based on the information which Governor Connally provided to you?

Dr. SHAW. Largely.

Mr. SPECTER. As opposed to any objectively determinable facts from the bullets, the situs of the wounds or your viewing of the pictures?

Dr. SHAW. Yes. I was influenced a great deal by what Governor Connally knew about his movements in the car at this particular time.

Mr. DULLES. You have indicated a certain angle of declination on this chart here which the Chief Justice has.

Dr. SHAW. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know enough about the angle of declination of the bullet that hit the President to Judge at all whether these two angles of declination are consistent?

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Dr. SHAW. We know that the angle of declination was a downward one from hack to front so that I think this is consistent with the angle of declination of the wound that the Governor sustained.

Senator COOPER. Are you speaking of the angle of declination in the President's body?

Dr. SHAW. Of the first wound?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes.

Dr. SHAW. First wound.

Mr. SPECTER. What you have actually seen from pictures to show the angle of declination?

Dr. SHAW. That is right.

Mr. SPECTER. In the wounds in the President's body?

Dr. SHAW. Yes; that is right. I did not examine the President.

Mr. DULLES. And that angle taking into account say the 4 feet difference between where the President was sitting and where the Governor was sitting, would be consistent with the point of entry of the Governor's body as you have shown it?

Dr. SHAW. The jump seat in the car, as we could see, placed the Governor sitting at a lower level than the President, and I think conceivably these two wounds could have been caused by the same bullet.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything else to add, Dr. Shaw, which you think would be helpful to the Commission in any way?

Dr. SHAW. I don't believe so Mr. Specter.

Mr. SPECTER. May it please the Commission then I would like to move into evidence Commission Exhibits Nos. 679 and 680, and then reserve Nos. 681 and 682 until we get the photographs of the X-rays and I now move for admission into evidence Commission Exhibits Nos. 683 through 689.

Senator COOPER. They have all been identified, have they?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes, sir; during the course of Dr. Shaw's testimony.

Senator COOPER. It is ordered then that these exhibits be received in the record.

(The documents referred to, previously identified as Commission Exhibits Nos. 679, 680, and 683-689 for identification were received in evidence.)

Mr. McCLOY. Just one or two questions. It is perfectly clear, Doctor, that the wound, the lethal wound on the President did not--the bullet that caused the lethal wound on the President, did not cause any wounds on Governor Connally, in your opinion?

Dr. SHAW. Mr. McCloy, I couldn't say that from my knowledge.

Mr. McCLOY. We are talking about the, following up what Mr. Dulles said about the angle of declination, the wound that came through the President's collar, you said was consistent between the same bullet. I just wondered whether under all the circumstances that you know about the President's head wound on the top that would also be consistent with a wound in Governor Connally's body?

Dr. SHAW. On the chest, yes; I am not so sure about the wrist. I can't quite place where his wrist was at the time his chest was struck.

Mr. McCLOY. Now perhaps this is Dr. Gregory's testimony, that is the full description of the wrist wound, that would be his rather than your testimony?

Dr. SHAW. I think he could throw just as much light on it as I could. And more in certain aspects.

Mr. McCLOY. It did hit bone?

Dr. SHAW. Obviously.

Mr. McCLOY. And there must have been a considerable diminution in the velocity of the bullet after penetrating through the wrist?

Dr. SHAW. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. The wound inflicted on it, the chest wound on Governor Connally, if you move that an inch or two, 1 inch or the other, could that have been lethal, go through an area that could easily have been lethal?

Dr. SHAW. Yes; of course, if it had been moved more medially it could have struck the heart and the great vessels.

Mr. McCLOY. Let me ask you this, Doctor, in your experience with gunshot wounds, is it possible for a man to be hit sometime before he realizes it?

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Dr. SHAW. Yes. There can be a delay in the sensory reaction.

Mr. McCLOY. Yes; so that a man can think as of a given instant he was not hit, and when actually he could have been hit.

Dr. SHAW. There can be an extending. sensation and then just a gradual building up of a feeling of severe injury.

Mr. McCLOY. But there could be a delay in any appreciable reaction between the time of the impact of the bullet and the occurrence?

Dr. SHAW. Yes; but in the case of a wound which strikes a bony substance such as a rib, usually the reaction is quite prompt.

Mr. McCLOY. Yes.

Dr. SHAW. Yes.

Mr. McCLOY. Now, you have indicated, I think, that this bullet traveled along, hit and traveled along the path of the rib, is that right?

Dr. SHAW. Yes.

Mr. McCLOY. Is it possible that it could have not, the actual bullet could not have hit the rib at all but it might have been the expanding flesh that would cause the wound or the proper contusion, I guess you would call it on the rib itself?

Dr. SHAW. I think we would have to postulate that the bullet hit the rib itself by the neat way in which it stripped the rib out without doing much damage to the muscles that lay on either side of it.

Mr. McCLOY. Was---up until you gave him the anesthetic--the Governor was fully conscious, was he?

Dr. SHAW. I would not say fully, but he was responsive. He would answer questions.

Mr. McCLOY. I think that is all I have.

The CHAIRMAN. I have no questions of the doctor.

Mr. DULLES. There were no questions put to him that were significant as far as our testimony is concerned?

Dr. SHAW. No; we really don't have to question him much. Our problem was pretty clearcut, and he told us it hurt and that was about his only response as far as----

Senator COOPER. Could I ask you a question, doctor?

I think you said from the time you came into the emergency room and the time you went to the operating room was about 5 minutes?

Dr. SHAW. Yes; it was just the time that it took to ask a few simple questions, what has been done so far, and has the operating room been alerted, and then I went out and talked to Mrs. Connally, just very briefly, I told her what the problem was in respect to the Governor and what we were going to have to do about it and she said to go ahead with anything that was necessary. So this couldn't have taken more than 5 minutes or so.

Mr. DULLES. Did he say anything or did anyone say anything there about the circumstances of the shooting?

Dr. SHAW. Not at that time.

Mr. DULLES. Either of Governor Connally or the President?

Dr. SHAW. Not at that time. All of our conversation was later.

Mr. DULLES. Was the President in the same room?

Dr. SHAW. No.

Mr. DULLES. Did you see him?

Dr. SHAW. I only saw his shoes and his feet. He was in the room immediately opposite. As I came into the hallway, I could recognize that the President was on it, in the room to my right. I knew that my problem was concerned with Governor Connally, and I turned and went into the room where I saw that he was.

Mr. DULLES. Did you hear at that time or have any knowledge, of a bullet which had been found on the stretcher?

Dr. SHAW. No; this was later knowledge.

Mr. DULLES. When did you first hear that?

(At this point Senator Russell entered the hearing room.)

Dr. SHAW. This information was first given to me by a man from the Secret Service who interviewed me in my office several weeks later. It is the first time I knew about any bullet being recovered.

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Senator COOPER. I think, of course, it is evident from your testimony you have had wide experience in chest wounds and bullet wounds in the chest.

What experience have you had in, say, the field of ballistics? Would this experience you have been dealing in chest wounds caused by bullets--have provided you knowledge also about the characteristics of missiles, particularly bullets of this type?

Dr. SHAW. No; Senator. I believe that my information about ballistics is just that of an average layman, no more. Perhaps a little more since I have seen deformed bullets from wounds, but I haven't gone into that aspect of wounds.

Senator COOPER. In the answers to the hypothetical questions that were addressed to you, based upon the only actual knowledge which you could base that answer, was the fact that you had performed the operation on the wound caused in the chest, on the wound in the chest?

Dr. SHAW. That is true. I have seen many bullets that have passed through bodies or have penetrated bodies and have struck bone and I know manners from which they are deformed but I know very little about the caliber of bullets, the velocity of bullets, many things that other people have much more knowledge of than I have.

Senator COOPER. That is all.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much, Dr. Shaw.

Volume V

Volume VI

TESTIMONY OF DR. ROBERT SHAW

The testimony of Dr. Robert Shaw was taken at 6 p.m., on March 23, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that Dr. Robert Shaw is present, having responded to a request to have his deposition taken in connection with the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy, which is investigating all facts relating to the medical care of President Kennedy and Governor Connally, and Dr. Shaw has been requested to appear and testify concerning the treatment on Governor Connally.

Dr. Shaw, will you rise and raise your right hand, please.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give before the President's Commission in the course of this deposition proceeding will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Dr. SHAW. I do.

Mr. SPECTER Will you state your full name for the record, please?

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Dr. SHAW. Robert Roeder Shaw.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is your profession, sir?

Dr. SHAW. Physician and surgeon.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you outline briefly your educational background, please?

Dr. SHAW. I received my B.A. degree from the University of Michigan in 1927 and M.D. degree in 1933. My surgical training was obtained at Roosevelt Hospital in New York City, July 1934 to July 1936, and my training in thoracic surgery at the University Hospital, Ann Arbor, Mich, July 1936 to July 1938. Do you want me to say what happened subsequent to then ?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes; will you outline your medical career in brief form subsequent to that date, please?

Dr. SHAW. I entered private practice, limited to thoracic surgery, August 1, 1938. I have continuously practiced this specialty in Dallas, with the exception of the period from June 1942 to December 1945, when I was a member of the Medical Corps of the Army of the United States, serving almost all of this period in the European theatre of operations. I was again absent from Dallas from December 1961 until June 1963, when I headed the medico team and performed surgery at the Avicenna Hospital at Kabul, Afghanistan.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you Board certified, Dr. Shaw?

Dr. SHAW. Yes. I am certified 'by the Board of Thoracic Surgery, date of certification--1948. At the present time I am professor of thoracic surgery and chairman of the division of thoracic surgery at the University of Texas, Southwestern Medical School.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to perform any medical care for President Kennedy on November 22, 1963?

Dr. SHAW. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to care for Governor Connally?

Dr. SHAW. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you relate the circumstances of your being called in to care for the Governor, please?

Dr. SHAW. I was returning to Parkland Hospital and the medical school from a conference I had attended at Woodlawn Hospital, which is approximately a mile away, when I saw an open limousine going past the intersection of Industrial Boulevard and Harry Hines Boulevard under police escort. As soon as traffic had cleared, I proceeded on to the medical school. On the car radio I heard that the President had been shot at while riding in the motorcade. Upon entering the medical school, a medical student came in and joined three other medical students. He stated that President Kennedy had been brought in dead on arrival to the emergency room of Parkland Hospital and that Governor Connally had been shot through the chest. Upon hearing this, I proceeded immediately to the emergency room of the hospital and arrived at the emergency room approximately 5 minutes after the President and Governor Connally had arrived.

Mr. SPECTER. Where did you find Governor Connally at that time, Dr. Shaw?

Dr. SHAW. I found Governor Connally lying on a stretcher in emergency room No. 2. In attendance were several men, Dr. James Duke, Dr. David Mebane, Dr. Giesecke, an anesthesiologist. As emergency measures, the open wound on the Governor's right chest had been covered with. a heavy dressing and manual pressure was being applied. A drainage tube had been inserted into the second interspace in the anterior portion of the right chest and connected to a water-sealed bottle to bring about partial reexpansion of the collapsed right lung. An intravenous needle had been inserted into a vein in the left arm and intravenous fluid was running.

I was informed by Dr. Duke that blood had already been drawn and sent to the laboratory to be crossmatched with 4 pints of blood to be available at surgery. He also stated that the operating room had been alerted and that they were merely waiting for my arrival to take the Governor to surgery, since it was obvious that the wound would have to be debrided and closed.

Mr..SPECTER. At what time did the operation actually start, Dr. Shaw?

Dr. SHAW. That, I would have to refresh my memory on that--now, this, of course--the point he began the anesthesia--that would be about right--but I have to refresh my memory.

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Mr. SPECTER. Permit me to make available on the record for you the operative record which has been heretofore marked as Commission Exhibit No. 392, with the exhibit consisting of the recorded of Parkland Hospital on President Kennedy as well as Governor Connally and I call your attention to a 2-page report which bears your name as the surgeon, under date of November 22, 1963, of thoracic surgery for Governor Connally, and, first, I ask you if in fact this report was prepared by you?

Dr. SHAW. It was.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, with that report, is your recollection refreshed as to the starting time of the operation on Governor Connally's chest?

Dr. SHAW. Yes; the anesthesia was begun at 1300 hours.

Mr. SPECTER. Which would be 1 p.m. ?

Dr. SHAW. 1 p.m., and the actual incision was made at 1335 or 1:35 p.m.

Mr. SPECTER. And what time did that operation conclude?

Dr. SHAW. My operation was completed at 1520 hours, or 3:20.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe Governor Connally's condition, Dr. Shaw, directing your attention first to the wound on his back?

Dr. SHAW. When Governor Connally was examined,, it was found that there was a small wound of entrance, roughly elliptical in shape, and approximately a cm. and a half in its longest diameter, in the right posterior shoulder, which is medial to the fold of the axilla.

Mr. SPECTER. What is the axilla, in lay language, Dr Shaw?

Dr. SHAW. The arm pit.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw, will you describe next the wound of exit?

Dr. SHAW. Yes; the wound of exit was below and slightly medial to the nipple on the anterior right chest. It was a round, ragged wound, approximately 5 cm. in diameter. This wound had obviously torn the pleura, since it was a sucking wound, allowing air to pass to and fro between the pleura cavity and the outside of the body.

Mr. SPECTER Define the pleura, please. Doctor, in lay language.

Dr. SHAW. The pleura is the lining of the chest cavity with one layer of pleura, the parietal pleura lining the inside of the chest wall, diaphragm and the mediastinum, which is the compartment of the body containing the heart, its pericardial sac, and great vessels.

Mr. SPECTER. What were the characteristics of these two bullet wounds which led you to believe that one was a wound of entry and one was a wound of exit, Dr Shaw?

Dr. SHAW. The wound of entrance is almost invariably the smaller wound, since it perforates the skin and makes a wound approximately or slightly larger than the missile. The wound of exit, especially if it has shattered any bony material in the body, will be the larger of the wounds.

Mr. SPECTER. What experience, Doctor, have you had, if any, in evaluating gunshot wounds?

Dr. SHAW. I have had considerable experience with gunshot wounds and wounds due to missiles because of my war experience. This experience was not only during the almost 2 years in England, but during the time that I was head of the Thoracic Center in Paris, France, for a period of approximately a year.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you be able to give an approximation of the total number of bullet wounds you have had occasion to observe and treat?

Dr. SHAW. Considering the war experience and the addition of wounds seen in civilian practice, it probably would number well over a thousand, since we had over 900 admissions to the hospital in Paris.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the line of trajectory, Dr. Shaw, between the point in the back of the Governor and the point in the front of the Governor, where the bullet wounds were observed?

Dr. SHAW. Considering the wound of entrance and the wound of exit, the trajectory of the bullet was obliquely downward, considering the fact that the Governor was in a sitting position at the time of wounding.

Mr. SPECTER. As an illustrative guide here, Dr. Shaw--

Dr. SHAW. May I add one sentence there?

Mr. SPECTER. Please do.

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Dr. SHAW. The bullet, in passing through the Governor's chest wall struck the fifth rib at its midpoint and roughly followed the slanting direction of the fifth rib, shattering approximately 10 cm. of the rib. The intercostal muscle bundle above the fifth rib and below the fifth rib were surprisingly spared from injury by the shattering of the rib, which again establishes the trajectory of the bullet.

Mr. SPECTER. Would the shattering of the rib have had any effect in deflecting the path of the bullet from a straight line?

Dr. SHAW. It could have, except that in the case of this injury, the rib was obviously struck so that not too dense cancellus portion of the rib in this position was carried away by the bullet and probably there was very little in the way of deflection.

Mr. SPECTER At this time, Dr. Shaw,. I would like to call your attention to an exhibit which we have already had marked as Dr. Gregory's Exhibit No. 1, because we have used this in the course of his deposition earlier today and this is a body diagram, and I ask you, first of all, looking at Diagram No. 1, to comment as to whether the point of entry marked on the right shoulder of Governor Connally is accurate?

Dr. SHAW. Yes. The point of entry as marked on this exhibit I consider to be quite accurate.

Mr. SPECTER. Is the size and dimension of the hole accurate on scale, or would you care to make any adjustment or modification in that characterization by picture?

Dr. SHAW. As the wound entry is marked on this figure, I would say that the scale is larger than the actual wound or the actual depicting of the wound should be. As I described it, it was approximately a centimeter and a half in length.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you draw, Dr. Shaw, right above the shoulder as best you can recollect, what that wound of entry appeared at the time you first observed it? Would you put your initials right beside that?

(The witness, Dr. Shaw, complied with the request of Counsel Specter.)

Mr. SPECTER. Now, directing your attention to the figure right beside, showing the front view, does the point of exit on the lower chest of the figure there correspond with the point of exit on the body of Governor Connally?

Dr. SHAW. Yes; I would say that it conforms in every way except that it was a little nearer to the right nipple than depicted here. Off the record, just a minute.

(Discussion between Counsel Specter and the witness, Dr. Shaw, off the record. )

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw, in our off-the-record conversation, you called my attention to your thought that the nipple line is incorrectly depicted on that figure, would you, therefore, in ink mark on there the nipple line which would be more accurate proportionately to that body?

Dr. SHAW. Yes; I feel the nipple line as shown on this figure is a little high and should be placed at a lower point on the body, which would bring the wound of exit, which I feel is in the proper position, more in line with the actual position of the nipple.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, with the wound of exit as it is shown there, does that correspond in position with the actual situation on Governor Connally's body as you have redrawn the proportion to the nipple line?

Dr. SHAW. It does.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you put an "X" through the old nipple line so we have obscured that and put your initials beside those two marks, if you would, please?

Dr. SHAW. By the "X-1"?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes, please.

(The witness, Dr. Shaw, complied with request of Counsel Specter in drawing on the figure heretofore mentioned. )

Mr. SPECTER. Now, as to the proportion of the hole depicting the point of exit, is that correct with respect to characterizing the situation on Governor Connally?

Dr. SHAW. It is, and corresponds with the relative size of the two wounds as I have shown on the other figure.

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Mr. SPECTER. Would you at this time, right above the right shoulder there, draw the appearances of the point of exit as nearly as you can recollect it on Governor Connally?

Dr. SHAW. This is right.

Mr. SPECTER You say the hole which appears on Governor Connally is just about the size that it would have been on his body?

Dr. SHAW. Yes; it is drawn in good scale.

Mr. SPECTER In good scale to the body?

Dr. SHAW. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you draw it on another portion of the paper here in of its absolute size?

Dr. SHAW. Five cm. it would be about like that--do you want me to mark that?

Mr. SPECTER. Put your initials right in the center of that circle.

Dr. SHAW. I'll just put "wound of exit."

Mr. SPECTER Fine--just put "wound of exit--actual size" and put your initials under it.

(The witness, Dr. Shaw, complied with request of Counsel Specter.)

Mr. SPECTER. Let the record show that Dr. Shaw has marked "wound of exit--actual size" with his initials R.R.S. on the diagram 1.

Now, looking at diagram 2, Dr. Shaw, does the angle of declination on the figure correspond with the angle that the bullet passed through Governor Connally's chest?

Dr. SHAW. It does.

Mr. SPECTER. Is there any feature of diagram 3 which is useful in further elaborating that which you have commented about on diagram 1?

Dr. SHAW. No. Again off the record?

Mr. SPECTER All right, off the record.

(Discussion between Counsel Specter and the witness, Dr. Shaw, off the record.)

Mr. SPECTER. You have just commented off the record, Dr. Shaw, that the wound of entry is too large proportionately to the wound of exit, but aside from that, is there anything else on diagram 3 which will be helpful to us?

Dr. SHAW. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Is there anything else on diagram 4 which would be helpful by way of elaborating that which appeared on diagram 2?

Dr. SHAW. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Now as to the treatment or operative procedure which you performed on Governor Connally, would you now describe what you did for him?

Dr. SHAW. As soon as anesthesia had been established and an endotracheal tube was in place so that respiration could be controlled with positive pressure, the large occlusive dressing which had been applied in the emergency room was removed. This permitted better inspection of the wound of exit, air passed to and fro through the damaged chest wall, there was obvious softening of the bony framework of the chest wall as evidenced by exaggerated motion underneath the skin along the line of the trajectory of the missile.

The skin of the chest wall axilla and back were thoroughly cleaned and aseptic solution was applied for further cleaning of the skin, the whole area was draped so as to permit access to both the wound of exit and the entrance wound. Temporarily, the wound of entrance was covered with a sterile towel.

First an elliptical incision was made to remove the ragged edges of the wound of exit. This incision was then extended laterally and upward in a curved direction so as to not have the incision through the skin and subcutaneous tissue directly over the line of the trajectory of the bullet where the chest had been softened.

It was found that approximately 10 cm. of the fifth rib had been shattered and the rib fragments acting as secondary missiles had been the major contributing factor to the damage to the anterior chest wall and to the underlying lung.

Mr. SPECTER. What do you mean, Doctor, by the words "fragments acting as secondary missiles"?

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Dr. SHAW. When bone is struck by a high velocity missile it fragments and acts much like bowling pins when they are struck by a bowling ball--they fly in all directions.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you continue now and further describe the treatment which you performed?

Dr. SHAW. The bony fragments were removed along with all obviously damaged muscle. It was found that the fourth and fifth intercoastal muscle bundles were almost completely intact where the rib had been stripped out. There was damage to the latissimus dorsi muscle, but this was more in the way of laceration, so that the damage could be repaired by suture. The portion of parietal pleura which had not been torn by the injury was opened along the length of the resected, portion of the fifth rib. The jagged ends of the fifth rib were cleaned with a rongeur; approximately 200 cc. of clot and liquid blood was removed from the pleura cavity; inspection of the lung revealed that the middle lobe had a long tear which separated the lobe into approximately two equal segments. This tear extended up into the hilum of the lobe, but had not torn a major bronchus or a major blood vessel. The middle lobe was repaired with a running No. 3 O chromic gut approximating the tissue of the depths of the lobe, with two sutures, and then approximating the visceral pleura on both the medial and lateral surface with a running suture of the same material--same gut.

Upon repair of the lobe it expanded well upon pressure on the anesthetic bag with very little in the way of peripheral leak.

Attention was next turned to the lower lobe. There was a large hematoma in the anterior basal segment of the right lower lobe extending on into the median basal segment. At one point there was a laceration in the surface of the lobe approximating a centimeter in length, undoubtedly caused by one of the penetrating rib fragments. A single mattress suture No. 3 O chromic gut of an atromitac needle was used to close this laceration from which blood was oozing.

Next, the diaphragm and all parts of the right mediastinum was examined but no injury was found.

The portion of the drainage tube which had already been placed. in the second interspace in the anterior axillary line which protruded into the chest was cut away, since it was deemed to be longer than necessary. A second drainage tube was placed through a stab wound in the eighth interspace in the posterior axillary line and both of these tubes were connected to a water sealed bottle. The fourth and fifth intercoastal muscle bundles were then approximated with interrupted sutures of No. O chromic gut.

The remaining portion of the serratus anterior muscle was then approximated across the closure of the intercostal muscles. The laceration at the latissimus dorsi muscle was then approximated with No. O chromic guts suture. Before closing the skin and subcutaneous tissue a stab wound approximately 2 cm. in length was made near the lower tip of the right scapula and a latex rubber drain was drawn up through this stab wound to drain subscapular space. This drain was marked with a safety pin. The subcutaneous tissue was then closed with interrupted sutures of No. O chromic gut, inverting the knots. The skin was closed with interrupted vertical mattress sutures of black silk.

Attention was next turned to the wound of entrance. The skin surrounding the wound was removed in an elliptical fashion, enlarging the incision to approximately 3 cm. Examination of the depths of this wound reveal that the latissimus dorsi muscle alone was injured, and the latex rubber drain could be felt immediately below the laceration in the muscle. A single mattress suture was used to close the laceration in the muscle. The skin was then closed with interrupted vertical mattress sutures of black silk. The drainage tubes going into the pleura cavity were then secured with safety pins and adhesive tape and a dressing applied to the entire incision. This concluded the operation for the wound of the chest, and at this point Dr. Gregory and Dr. Shires entered the operating room to care for the wounds of the right wrist and left thigh.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe, Dr. Shaw, as to the wound of the right wrist?

Dr. SHAW. Well, I would have to say that my observations are probably not accurate. I knew that the wound of the wrist had fractured the lower end of

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the right radius and I saw one large wound on the I guess you would call it the volar surface of the right arm and a small wound on the dorsum of the right wrist.

Mr. SPECTER. Which appeared to you to be the point of entrance, Dr. Shaw?

Dr. SHAW. To me, I felt that the wound of entrance was the wound on the volar surface or the anterior surface with the hand held in the upright or the supine position, with the wound of exit being the small wound on the dorsum.

Mr. SPECTER. What were the characteristics of those wounds which led you to that conclusion?

Dr. SHAW. Although the wound of entrance, I mean, although the wound that I felt was a wound of entrance was the larger of the two, it was my feeling that considering the large wound of exit from the chest, that this was consistent with the wound that I saw on the wrist. May we go off the record?

Mr. SPECTER. Sure.

(Discussion between Counsel Specter and the witness. Dr. Shaw off the record.)

Mr. SPECTER Now, let's go back on the record.

Dr. SHAW. I'll start by saying that my examination of the wrist was a cursory one because I realized that Dr. Gregory was going to have the responsibility of doing what was necessary surgically for this wrist.

Mr. SPECTER. Had you conferred with him preliminarily to starting your operation on the chest so that you knew he would be standing by, I believe as you testified earlier, to perform the wrist operation?

Dr. SHAW. Yes--Dr. Gregory was in the hallway of the operating room before I went in to operate on Governor Connally and while I was scrubbing preparatory to the operation, I told him that there was a compound comminuted fracture of the radius of the Governor's right hand that would need his attention.

Mr. SPECTER. Let the record show that while we were off the record here a moment ago, Dr. Shaw, you and I were discussing the possible angles at which the Governor might have been sitting in relation to a trajectory of a bullet consistent with the observations which you recollect and consistent with what seems to have been a natural position for the Governor to have maintained, in the light of your view of the situation. And with that in mind, let me resume the questioning and put on the record very much of the comments and observations you were making as you and I were discussing off the record as this deposition has proceeded.

Now, you have described a larger wound on the volar or palm side of the wrist than was present on the dorsal or back side of the wrist, and you have expressed the opinion that it was the point of entry on the volar side of the wrist as opposed to a point of exit on the back side of the wrist, even though as you earlier said, ordinarily the point of entry is smaller and the point of exit is larger.

Now, will you repeat for the record, Dr. Shaw, the thinking--your thinking which might explain a larger point of entry and a smaller point of exit on the wrist.

Dr. SHAW. Yes. As a matter of fact, when I first examined Governor Connally's wrist, I did not notice the small wound on the dorsum of the wrist and only saw the much larger wound on the radial side of the volar surface of the wrist. I didn't know about the second small wound until I came in when Dr. Gregory was concluding his operation on the wrist. He informed me that there was another small wound through the skin through which a missile had obviously passed.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, which wound was that, Dr. Shaw?

Dr. SHAW. This was the wound on the dorsum or the dorsal surface of the wrist.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you then observe that wound?

Dr. SHAW. Yes; I saw this wound.

Mr. SPECTER. And where was that wound located to the best of your recollection ?

Dr. SHAW. This wound was slightly more distal on the arm than the larger wound and located almost in the midportion of the dorsum of the wrist.

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Mr. SPECTER. Would that correspond with this location which I read from Dr. Gregory's report on the dorsal aspect of the right wrist over the junction of the distal fourth of the radius and shaft approximately 2 cm. in length.

Dr. SHAW. The wound was approximately 2 cm. in length?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes; would that correspond with the wound which you observed?

Dr. SHAW. Yes; I saw it at the time that he was closing it and that would correspond with the wound I observed.

Mr. SPECTER. He has described that as what he concluded to be the wound of entry on the dorsal aspect of the right wrist, but your thought was that perhaps that was the wound of exit?

Dr. SHAW. Yes; in trying to reconstruct the position of Governor Connally's body, sitting in the jump seat of the limousine, and the attitude that he would assume in turning to the right--this motion would naturally bring the polar surface of the right wrist in contact with the anterior portion of the right chest.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, is your principal reason for thinking that the wound on the dorsal aspect is a wound of exit rather than a wound of entry because of what you consider to be the awkward position in having the dorsal aspect of the wrist either pointing upward or toward the chest?

Dr. SHAW. Yes, I think I am influenced a great deal by the fact that in trying to assume this position, I can't comfortably turn my arm into a position that would explain the wound of the dorsal surface of the wrist as a wound of entrance, knowing where the missile came out of the chest and assuming that one missile caused both the chest wound and the arm wound.

Mr. SPECTER. Might not then that conclusion be affected if you discard the assumption that one missile caused all the wounds?

Dr. SHAW. Yes, if two missiles struck the Governor, then it would not be necessary to assume that the larger wound is the wound of entrance.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, would not another explanation for the presence of a wound on the dorsal aspect of the wrist be if the Governor were sitting in an upright position on the jump seat with his arm resting either on an arm rest inside the ear or on a window of the ear with the elbow protruding outward, and as he turned around, turning in a rotary motion, his wrist somewhat toward his body so that it was present in an angle of approximately 45 degrees to his body, being slightly moving toward his body.

Dr. SHAW. Well, I myself, am not able to get my arm into that position. If the wound, as I assume to be in the midportion of the forearm here and the wound of exit would be here (illustrating) I can't get my arm into that position as to correspond to what we know about the trajectory of the bullet into the chest.

Mr. SPECTER. Assuming that the bullet through the chest then also went

through the wrist?

Dr. SHAW. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, aside from the trajectory and the explanation of one bullet causing all the damage and focusing just on the nature of the wound on the wrist, what conclusion would you reach as to which was the point of entrance and which was the point of exit?

Dr. SHAW. I would feel that the wound on the polar surface of the wrist was the wound of entrance and that perhaps the bullet being partially spent by its passage through the chest wall, struck the radius, fragmenting it, but didn't pass through the wrist, and perhaps tumbled out into the clothing of Governor Connally with only a small fragment of this bullet passing on through the wrist to go out into the left thigh.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, would that be consistent with a fragment passing through the wrist which was so small that virtually the entire missile, or 158 grains of it, would remain in the central missile?

Dr. SHAW. Yes. The wound on the volar surface, I'm sorry, on the dorsum of the wrist and the wound in the thigh which was obviously a wound of entrance, since the fragment is still within the thigh, were not too dissimilar in size.

Mr. SPECTER. Was the wound in the thigh itself, that is, aside from the size

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of the fragment which remains in the leg, as small as the hole on the dorsal aspect of the wrist?

Dr. SHAW. My memory is that the wound in the thigh through the skin was about the same as the wound on the skin of the dorsum of the wrist, but I didn't make an accurate observation at the time.

Mr. SPECTER. Would your thinking on that be affected any if I informed you that Dr. Shires was of the view and bad the recollection that the wound on the thigh was much larger than a hole accounted for by the size of fragments which remained in the femur.

Dr. SHAW. Of course, Dr. Shires actually treated and closed this wound, but since this wound was made through the skin in a tangential manner--

Mr. SPECTER. Now, you are referring to the wound of the thigh?

Dr. SHAW. I am referring to the wound of the thigh--was made in a tangential manner, it did not go in at a direct right angle, the slit in the skin in the thigh could be considerably longer than the actual size of the missile itself, because this is a sharp fragment that would make a cutting--it would cause a laceration rather than a puncture wound.

Mr. SPECTER. So, the hole in the thigh would be consistent with a very small fragment in the femur?

Dr. SHAW. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, a moment ago I asked you what would be your opinion as to the point of entry and the point of exit based solely on the appearances of the holes on the dorsal and volar aspects of the wrist, and you responded that you still thought, or that you did think that the volar aspect was the point of entry with the additional thought that the missile might not have gone through the wrist, but only a fraction having gone through the wrist--now, my question is in giving that answer, did you consider at that time the hypothesis that the wound on the wrist was caused by the same missile which went through the Governor's chest, or was that answer solely in response to the characteristics of the wound on the wrist alone?

Dr. SHAW. I have always felt that the wounds of Governor Connally could be explained by the passage of one missile through his chest, striking his wrist and a fragment of it going on into his left thigh. I had never entertained the idea that he had been struck by a second missile.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, focusing for just a minute on the limited 'question of the physical characteristics of the wounds on the wrist, .if you had that and nothing more in this case to go on, what would your opinion be as to which point was entry and which point was exit?

Dr. SHAW. Ordinarily, we usually find the wound of entrance is smaller than the wound of exit. In the Governor's wound on the wrist, however, if the wound on the dorsum of the wrist is the wound of entrance, and this large missile passed directly through his radius, I'm not clear as to why there was not a larger wound of exit than there was.

Mr. SPECTER You mean on the volar aspect?

Dr. SHAW. Yes; if a whole bullet hit here

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating the dorsal aspect?

Dr. SHAW. Yes; and came out through here, why it didn't carry more bone out through the wrist than it did, and the bone was left in the wrist--the bone did not come out. In other words, when it struck the fifth rib it made a hole this big around (indicating) in the chest in carrying bone fragments out through the chest wall.

Mr. SPECTER. Wouldn't that same question arise if it went through the volar aspect and exited through the dorsal aspect?

Dr. SHAW. It wouldn't if you postulated that the bullet did not pass through the wrist, but struck the wrist.

Mr. SPECTER. That would be present in either event, though, if you postulated if the bullet struck the dorsal aspect of the wrist, and did not pass through, but only a missile passed through the volar aspect.

Dr. SHAW. Yes; in that case, however, considering the wound of exit from the chest, and if that same bullet went on through the wrist, I would still expect a pretty good wound of entrance.

Mr. SPECTER. You see, I am trying now, Dr. Shaw, to disassociate the thought

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that this is the same missile, so that I'm trying to look at it just from the physical characteristics of the appearance of the wounds on the two sides of the wrist.

Dr. SHAW. May we go off the record just a minute?

Mr. SPECTER. Sure off the record.

(Discussion between Counsel Specter and the witness, Dr. Shaw, off the record.)

Mr. SPECTER. Let us go back on the record and let the record reflect that we have been discussing another aspect concerning Dr. Shaw's thought that if the main missile had gone through the entire radius, that there would have been more damage, presumably, to the arteries and tendons on the underside of the wrist, and I then called Dr. Shaw's attention to one additional factor in Dr. Gregory's testimony which is reflected in his report that "on the radial' side of the arm, small fine bits of cloth consistent with fine bits of mohair were found," which was one of the reasons for Dr. Gregory's thinking that the path was from the dorsal

aspect to the volar aspect.

Dr. SHAW. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And Dr. Shaw's reply, if this is correct, Doctor, that you would know of no readily available explanation for that factor in the situation?

Dr. SHAW. Except that it might have been carried by the small fragment which obviously passed through the wrist and attached to that.

Mr. SPECTER. But could the fragment have carried it from the radial side on it if it had been traveling from the volar side to the radial side ?

Dr. SHAW. Yes; it could have carried it through. and deposited it on the way through.

Mr. SPECTER. I see, so it might have started. on the volar aspect and could have gone on through.

Dr. SHAW. You know, if we could get that suit of his, it would help a lot.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, we are going to examine clothing if at all possible.

Dr. SHAW. Because, I think it would have been almost impossible I think if you examine the clothing and if you had a hole here in his coat and no hole on this side----

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating a hole on the femur side----

Dr. SHAW. That would almost clear that thing up.

Mr. SPECTER. Yes; it would be very informational in our analysis of the situation.

Dr. SHAW. I doubt if there is a hole in both sides of the sleeve---the sleeve wouldn't be quite that long, I don't think.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw, my next question involves whether you have ever had a conversation with Governor Connally about the sequence of events of the day he was shot?

Dr. SHAW. Yes, we have talked on more than one occasion about this. The Governor admits that certain aspects of the whole incident are a bit hazy. He remembers hearing a shot. He recognized it as a rifle shot and turned to the right to see whether President Kennedy had been injured. He recognized that the President had been injured, but almost immediately, he stated, that he felt a severe shock to his right chest. He immediately experienced some difficulty in breathing, and as he stated to me, he thought that he had received a mortal wound.

Mr. SPECTER. Did he tell you why he thought the wound was mortal?

Dr. SHAW. He just knew that he was badly hit, as he expressed it.

Mr. SPECTER. Did he comment on whether or not he heard a second shot before he felt this wound in his chest?

Dr. SHAW. He says that he did not hear a second shot, but did hear---no, wait a minute, I shouldn't say that. He heard only two shots so that he doesn't know which shot other than the first one he did not hear. He only remembers hearing two shots, his wife says distinctly she heard three.

Mr. SPECTER. Mrs. Connally said she heard three?

Dr. SHAW. Mrs. Connally distinctly remembered three shots.

Mr. SPECTER. And, Governor Connally said he heard two shots?

Dr. SHAW. Two shots.

Mr. SPECTER. Would that not be consistent with a situation where he was hit by the second shot and lost consciousness?

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Dr. SHAW. Yes; the shock of the wounding might have prevented him from hearing the rifle report.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you have expected him to hear a third shot after he was wounded by a second shot?

Dr. SHAW. He didn't lose consciousness at that time, although he said he did lose consciousness during a part of the trip from the point of wounding to the hospital.

Mr. SPECTER. Did Governor Connally tell you whether or not he heard President Kennedy say anything?

Dr. SHAW. He said that all he heard was the President say, "Oh," that's the only thing he told me.

Mr. SPECTER. Did Mrs. Connally state whether or not she heard the President say anything?

Dr. SHAW. My memory isn't good for that. I don't remember what Mrs. Connally told me on that.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you continuing to treat Governor Connally at the present time?

Dr. SHAW. Yes, although the treatment of the chest is practically at an end, because the chest has reached a satisfactory state of healing.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you continue to treat the Governor all during his stay at Parkland Hospital ?

Dr. SHAW. Yes, I attended him several times daily.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw, would you think it consistent with the facts that you know as to Governor Connally's wounds that he could have been struck by the same bullet which passed through President Kennedy, assuming that a missile with the muzzle velocity of 2,000 feet per second, a 6.5-millimeter bullet, passed through President Kennedy at a distance of 160 to 250 feet from the rifle, passing through President Kennedy's body, entering on his back and striking only soft tissue and exiting on his neck; could that missile have also gone through Governor Connally's chest in your opinion ?

Dr. SHAW. Yes, taking your description of the first wound sustained by the President, which I, myself, did not observe, and considering the position of the two men in the limousine, I think it would be perfectly possible for the first bullet to have passed through the soft tissues of the neck of President Kennedy and produced the wounds that we found on Governor Connally.

Mr. SPECTER. Could that bullet then have produced all the wounds that you found on Governor Connally ?

Dr. SHAW. Yes, I would still be postulating that Governor Connally was struck by one missile.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, as you sit here at the moment on your postulation that Governor Connally was struck by one missile, is that in a way which is depicted by diagram No. 5 on the exhibit heretofore marked as "Dr. Gregory's Exhibit No. 1?"

Dr. SHAW. Yes; I feel that the line of trajectory as marked on this diagram is accurate as it could be placed from my memory of this wound.

Mr. SPECTER. And, on that trajectory;, how do you postulate the bullet then passed through the wrist from dorsal to volar or from volar to dorsal?

Dr. SHAW. My postulation would be from volar to dorsal.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, then, going back to diagram No. 1, Dr. Shaw, there is one factor that we did not call your attention to or have you testify about, and that is--the marking that the exit is on the volar side and the entry is on the dorsal side as it was remarked by Dr. Gregory, that would then be inconsistent of your view of the situation, would it not?

Dr. SHAW. Yes, it would be.

Mr. SPECTER. And similarly on diagram No. 3, where the exit is marked on the volar, and the entry is marked on the dorsal, that would also be inconsistent with your view of the situation ?

Dr. SHAW. Yes---he has the wound on the back being quite a bit larger than the wound on the front here, doesn't he?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes, the wound as it appears here on the diagram is larger.

Dr. SHAW. That wasn't my memory.

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Mr. SPECTER. But I don't think that that is necessarily as to scale in this situation. Would it be possible from your knowledge of the facts here, Dr. Shaw, that President Kennedy might have been struck by the bullet passing through him, hitting nothing but soft tissues, and that bullet could have passed through Governor Connally's chest and a second bullet might have struck Governor Connally's wrist?

Dr. SHAW. Yes; this is a perfectly tenable theory.

Mr. SPECTER. And, then, the damage to Governor Connally's thigh might have come from either of the bullets which passed through the chest or a second bullet which struck the wrist?

Dr. SHAW. That is true as far as the wounds are concerned, this theory, I feel, is tenable. It doesn't conform to the description of the sequence of the events as described by Mrs. Connally.

Mr. SPECTER. In what respect Dr. Shaw?

Dr. SHAW. Well she feels that the Governor was only struck by one bullet.

Mr. SPECTER. Why does she feel that way; do you know, sir?

Dr. SHAW. As soon as he was struck she pushed him to the bottom of the car and got on top of him and it would mean that there would be a period well if there were 5 1/2 seconds between the three shots, there would be a couple seconds there that would have given her time to get him down into the car, and as she describes the sequence, it is hard to see how he could have been struck by a second bullet.

Mr. SPECTER. If she pushed him down immediately after he was shot on the first occasion?

Dr. SHAW. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. But if her reaction was not that fast so that he was struck twice, of course then there would be a different situation, depending entirely on how fast she reacted.

Dr. SHAW. I think if he had been struck first in the wrist and not struck in the chest, he would have known that. He only remembers the hard blow to the back of his chest and doesn't remember being struck in the wrist at all.

Mr. SPECTER. Might he not have been struck in the chest first and struck by a subsequent shot in the wrist?

Dr. SHAW. Yes; but that's hard to postulate if he was down in the bottom of the car.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw, have you been interviewed by any representatives of

the Federal Government prior to today?

Dr. SHAW. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And who talked to you about this case?

Dr. SHAW. I don't have his name. I perhaps could find it. It was a member of the Secret Service.

Mr. SPECTER. On how many occasions were you talked to by a Secret Service man?

Dr. SHAW. Once.

Mr. SPECTER. And what did you tell him?

Dr. SHAW. I told him approximately the same that has been told in this transcript.

Mr. SPECTER. And prior to the time we started to go on the record with the court reporter taking this down verbatim, did you and I have a discussion bout the purpose of the deposition and the questions that I would ask you?

Dr. SHAW. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And were the answers which you provided me at that time the same as those which you have testified to on the record here this afternoon?

Dr. SHAW. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any other written record of the operation on Governor Connally other than that which has been identified here in Commission Exhibit No. 392?

Dr. SHAW. No; this is a copy of the operative record that went on to the chart of Governor Connally which is in the possession of the record room of Parkland Hospital.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything else which you could tell us which you think might be helpful to the Commission in any way, Dr. Shaw?

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Dr. SHAW. No; I believe that we have covered all of the points that are germane to this incident. Anything else that I would have would actually be hearsay.

Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much, sir, for appearing.

Dr. SHAW. All right, you are welcome.

Mr. SPECTER. Off the record.

(Discussion between Counsel Specter and the witness, Dr. Shaw, off the record.)

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw, permit me to ask you one or two more questions. Did you find any bullets in Governor Connally's body?

Dr. SHAW. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you find any fragments of bullets in his chest?

Dr. SHAW. No; only fragments of shattered rib.

Mr. SPECTER. And did you find, or do you know whether any fragment was found in his wrist or the quantity of fragments in his wrist?

Dr. SHAW. It is my understanding that only foreign material from the suit of Governor Connally was found in the wrist, although in the X-ray of the wrist there appeared to be some minute metallic fragments in the wrist.

Mr. SPECTER. As to the wound on the back of Governor Connally, was there any indication that the bullet was tumbling prior to the time it struck him?

Dr. SHAW. I would only have to say that I'm not a ballistics expert, but the wound on his chest was not a single puncture wound, it was long enough so that there might have been some tumbling.

Mr. SPECTER. You mean the wound on his back?

Dr. SHAW. The wound on his back--yes, it was long enough so that there might have been some tumbling. In other words, it was not a spherical puncture wound.

Mr. SPECTER. So it might have had some tumbling involved, or it might not have?

Dr. SHAW. Yes; I don't know whether the clothes would have occasioned this or not.

Mr. SPECTER. My question would be that perhaps some tumbling might have been involved as a result of decrease in velocity as the bullet passed through President Kennedy, whether there was any indication from the surface of the wound which would indicate tumbling.

Dr. SHAW. The wound entrance was an elliptical wound. In other words, it had a long diameter and a short diameter. It didn't have the appearance of a wound caused by a high velocity bullet that had not struck anything else; in other words, a puncture wound. Now, you have to also take into consideration, however, whether the bullet enters at a right angle or at a tangent. If it enters at a tangent there will be some length to the wound of entrance.

Mr. SPECTER. So, would you say in net that there could have been some tumbling occasioned by having it pass through another body or perhaps the oblique character of entry might have been occasioned by the angle of entry.

Dr. SHAW. Yes; either would have explained a wound of entry.

Mr. SPECTER. Fine, thank you very much, Doctor.

Dr. SHAW. Thank you.

Dr. Shires

Volume III

Volume IV

Volume VI

TESTIMONY OF DR. GEORGE T. SHIRES

The testimony of Dr. George T. Shires was taken at 4:35 p.m., on March 23, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex. by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr SPECTER. Let the record show that as we are reconvening this session and about to commence the deposition of Dr. George T. Shires, that the preliminary statement is being made that this is pursuant to the investigation being conducted by the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy to determine all the facts relating to the shooting, including the treatment rendered to Governor Connally as well as President Kennedy, and that Dr. Shires has appeared here today in response to a letter of request from the President's Commission to testify concerning his knowledge of the treatment which he and other medical personnel at Parkland Hospital performed on Governor Connally.

Will you rise, please, Dr. Shires and raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you will give before the President's Commission in this deposition proceeding will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Dr. SHIRES. I do.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you state your full name, please, for the record?

Dr. SHIRES. George Thomas Shires.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is your profession, sir?

Dr. SHIRES. Professor of Surgery and Chairman of the Department of Surgery, University of Texas, Southwestern Medical School.

Mr. SPECTER. And you are a medical doctor by profession, I assume?

Dr. SHIRES. Yes; M.D.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you outline briefly your educational background?

Dr. SHIRES. Undergraduate education at the University of Texas in Austin, Tex.; graduate medical education at the University of Texas, Southwestern Medical School in Dallas; internship, Massachusetts Memorial Hospital in Boston, Mass.; surgical residency---Parkland Memorial Hospital in Dallas, Tex.; two tours of active duty in the United States Navy, first as research investigator at the Naval Medical Research Institute, National Naval Medical Center, Bethesda, Md.; second as Associate Surgeon, United States Naval Hospital Ship Haven--do you want staff positions?

Mr. SPECTER. Please, give me those, as well.

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Dr. SHIRES. Subsequently, Clinical Instructor in Surgery, University of Texas, Southwestern Medical School, progressing through Assistant Professor of Surgery, Associate Professor of Surgery, Professor of Surgery, and Chairman of the Department of Surgery.

Mr. SPECTER. What was your year of graduation from college, Dr. Shires?

Dr. SHIRES. This was premedical, and at that time the war was on, so it was a premedical 3 years---it was 1944.

Mr. SPECTER. And what year did you receive your medical degree?

Dr. SHIRES. 1948.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you Board certified at the present time?

Dr. SHIRES. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And, in what year were you so certified?

Dr. SHIRES. I was certified by the American Board of Surgery in 1956.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to render any medical treatment for President Kennedy back on November 22, 1963?

Dr. SHIRES. No; I was not in town at the time the shooting occurred. I was in Galveston, Tex., at the meeting of the Western Surgical Association.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to render medical attention and services to Governor Connally, Dr. Shires?

Dr. SHIRES. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you state briefly the circumstances under which you were called into this case?

Dr. Shaw, who is the professor of surgery---I don't need to tell their titles---- you will have all that?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes---correct.

Dr. SHIRES. Dr. Shaw ascertained the condition of Governor Connally, instituted therapy, and had the hospital notify me in Galveston of the status of the President and also the Governor.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to return then to Dallas in time to assist in the operative procedures on Governor Connally?

Dr. SHIRES. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And at approximately what time did you return to Dallas?

Dr. SHIRES. Approximately 3 pm.

Mr. SPECTER. And what participation did you have in the operative procedures on Governor Connally?

Dr. SHIRES. At the time I returned, the chest procedure was in progress. The orthopedic procedure on the arm and the leg debridement were ready to be started. I scrubbed and performed the leg procedure.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe, if anything, as to the condition of Governor Connally's chest wound?

Dr. SHIRES. At the time I arrived, the chest wound had been debrided and was being closed. His general condition at that point was very good. He was receiving blood and the arm and leg wounds were being prepared for surgery.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any opportunity to observe the wound on his back?

Dr. SHIRES. Not at that time.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any opportunity to observe a wound on his chest?

Dr. SHIRES. Once again, not at that time later, but not at that time.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, what did you observe at a later time concerning the wound on his back and on his chest?

Dr. SHIRES. Well, in part of his postoperative care, which was a large part of the treatment, we were concerned, of course, with all the wounds. and he had several chest wounds. These, at the time I saw them, had been debrided and were the site of draining, so that their initial appearance was completely altered by having had surgical debridement, so they were clean postsurgical wounds with drainage, at the time I first saw them.

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Mr. SPECTER. Would their alteration and condition preclude you from giving an opinion as to whether they were points of entry or points of exit?

Dr. SHIRES. They would---really.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe at the time you arrived at the hospital as to the condition of his wrist, if anything?

Dr. SHIRES. At that point his wrist was being prepared for surgery, and although I did not examine this in detail, since I was concerned with the thigh wound, there appeared to be. a through and through wound of the wrist which looked like a missile wound.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to formulate any opinion as to the point of entry or the point of exit?

Dr. SHIRES. No; since I didn't examine it in detail; no, not really.

Mr. SPECTER. And what did you observe as to the wound on the thigh ?

Mr. SPECTER. What size fragment was there in the Governor's leg at that time?

Dr. SHIRES. We recovered none. The small one that was seen was on X-ray and it was still in the femur and being that small, with no tissue damage after the debridement, it was thought inadvisable to remove this small fragment.

Mr. SPECTER. Is that fragment in the bone itself at the present time?

Dr. SHIRES. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. What would your best estimate be as to the size of that fragment?

Dr. SHIRES. One millimeter in diameter---one to two.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you have any estimate as to how much that might weigh in grains?

Dr. SHIRES. In grains---a fraction of a grain, maybe, a tenth of a grain---very small.

Mr. SPECTER. A tenth of one grain?

Dr. SHIRES. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. What size bullet would it take to create the punctate hole which you described in the thigh?

Dr. SHIRES. This would depend entirely on the angle and the speed and weight of the bullet. For example, a small missile on a tangent may create a surprisingly large defect. A large bullet with fast or a relatively slow velocity will create the same defect.

Mr. SPECTER. What operative procedures did you employ?

Dr. SHIRES. Progressive debridement from skin, fat, fascia, muscle, irrigation, and through and through enclosure with stainless steel alloy wire and removable sutures.

Mr. SPECTER. Does that complete a general description of what you did to Governor Connally?

Dr. SHIRES. In the operating room, yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Approximately what time did that operation start?

Dr. SHIRES. Approximately 1 o'clock.

Mr. SPECTER The operation that you were concerned with?

Dr. SHIRES. Oh, the operation that I was concerned with must have started at 3:30 or 4 o'clock, I guess it was.

Mr. SPECTER. And about what time did it end?

Dr. SHIRES. My portion of it---about 20 minutes later.

Mr. SPECTER. And who, if anyone, assisted you in that portion of the operation?

Dr. SHIRES. Doctors Robert McClelland, Charles Baxter, and Ralph Don Patman.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shires, I am showing you a document identified heretofore

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as Commission Exhibit No. 392, which is the report of Parkland Hospital on the treatment of President Kennedy and Governor Connally, and I show you a Parkland Memorial Hospital operative record, dated November 22, 1963, which lists you as the surgeon, and ask you whether or not this represents the report made by you on the operative procedures on Governor Connally?

Dr. SHIRES. Yes; it does.

Mr. SPECTER. And, are those the same as the matters which you have heretofore described during the course of this deposition as to what you did?

Dr. SHIRES. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, what treatment, if any, have you performed on Governor Connally subsequent to November 22?

Dr. SHIRES. A tremendous amount---postoperative care was of the essence here in that he had multiple injuries, massive blood and fluid replacement, so that to describe the care is really a detail of postoperative---I don't know how much of this you want---in other words, he had clotting defects---I don't know whether you want to take this down---I just want to ask you how much detail you would like?

Mr. SPECTER. Start off with a general description---perhaps, I will direct your attention to some specific areas to abbreviate it. First of all, how frequently did you see him after November 22, 1963?

Dr. SHIRES. For the first several days I saw him approximately every 2 to 4 hours for an hour or so each visit, and many times for 6 and 8 hours at a stretch.

Mr. SPECTER. And after that time how frequently did you see him?

Dr. SHIRES. Decreasing frequency over the next 3 weeks---never less than three or four times a day, even after he was convalescing.

Mr. SPECTER. How long was he in the hospital?

Dr. SHIRES. I don't really know the number of days he was in the hospital.

Mr. SPECTER. After he left the hospital, have you seen him?

Dr. SHIRES. Yes: I saw him again approximately 2 weeks, I guess it was, after he left the hospital, in Austin. He developed a superficial saphenous thrombophlebitis in the right leg, not the one that the injury occurred in. This was undoubtedly incident to a catheter cutdown having been placed in this leg for administration of blood and fluids while he was in the hospital. He unequivocably had a clot in the saphenous vein and at this time was placed on bed rest, antibiotics, anticoagulants and responded very satisfactorily

Mr. SPECTER. Do you anticipate seeing him in the future?

Dr. SHIRES. Do I?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes.

Dr. SHIRES. Not for his wounds. No--the only followup care that he really requires at the moment is the bone---the orthopedic followup, which incidentally is also completely healed.

Mr. SPECTER. Doctor, look, if you will, at a document which we have marked Dr. Gregory X-l, used in the course of the deposition of Dr. Gregory, which immediately preceded yours and directing your attention first to Diagram Number 1, would the entry and exit holes on Governor Connally's back and chest, being entry and exit, respectively, and the exit and entry on the wrist

with the entry being on the back side of the wrist and the exit on the front side of the wrist, correspond with your observations of Governor Connally .

Dr. SHIRES. Yes; they would

Mr. SPECTER. Now, going to Diagram 2, which depicts a man standing, would that correspond to the angle of the entry and exit wounds?

Dr. SHIRES. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, going to Diagram No. 3, would that diagram correspond with the wounds on Governor Connally as you recollect them to be?

Dr. SHIRES. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Going now to Diagram 4, would that again correspond with the wounds on Governor Connally ?

Dr. SHIRES. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And as to Diagram No. 5, what does that represent?

Dr. SHIRES. This, at the time of the discussion of Governor Connally's injuries with his wife, before he really regained consciousness from surgery, was the

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apparent position that he was in in the car, which would explain one missile producing all three wounds.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have a discussion with Mrs. Connally?

Dr. SHIRES. Yes; with Mrs. Connally.

Mr. SPECTER. And when was that discussion?

Dr. SHIRES. Right after the surgery---this was the 22d, late in the afternoon.

Mr. SPECTER. And what, if anything, did she tell you as to the Governor's position?

Dr. SHIRES. She had thought, and I think correctly so, that he had turned to his right after he heard the first shot, apparently, to see what had happened to the President, and he then later confirmed this, that he heard the first shot, turned to his right, and then was hit. I forgot about that a moment ago, incidentally. He definitely remembers turning after hearing the first shot, before he was struck with a bullet. I forgot about that.

Mr. SPECTER. When did Governor Connally tell you that?

I)r. SHIRES. Oh, several days later.

Mr. SPECTER. While he was in the hospital?

Dr. SHIRES. Oh, yes---4 or 5 days later and we were constructing the events.

Mr. SPECTER What was the occasion for your conversation with him?

Dr. SHIRES. In part of his routine care one morning, as he was reconstructing his memory of events, because his memory was quite hazy, since he had a sucking wound of the chest and came in here relatively in anoxia, he had some cyanosis, as you know.

Mr. SPECTER. What is cyanosis?

Dr. SHIRES. Not enough oxygen of the tissues and this means they turn blue.

Dr. SHIRES. Yes; sure would and did, and he remembers very little after he fell over in the car--he is very hazy, until, oh, probably the second day post operatively.

Mr. SPECTER Would that affect his memory as to what happened before the wound?

Dr. SHIRES. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Or, would that affect only his memory while he was suffering from lack of oxygen?

Dr. SHIRES. Probably Just while he was suffering from lack of oxygen. He didn't have that much hypoxia. Hypoxia or anoxia or lack of oxygen could affect his memory. Had this been severe, this could have affected his memory for preceding events, but his hypoxia fortunately did not. last that long, and .he never showed real evidence of brain damage from the anoxia, so that I think his memory for events up until the time he recalls falling over in the car is probably accurate.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you relate just as exactly as you can for us what he said to you, and the nature of the conversation, with your replies, and how it went as closely as you can recount it now?

Mr. SPECTER. Did he say anything to you about who he meant by "they"?

Dr. SHIRES. He didn't say---he didn't comment on it at all.

Mr. SPECTER. Did he describe the nature of the sound which he heard?

Dr. SHIRES. I don't believe he did---no.

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Mr. SPECTER. Did anybody describe the nature of the sound?

Dr. SHIRES. I think Mrs. Connally did. I think she thought it was, if I'm not wrong, she thought it was a loud retort, either a gun or a firecracker. think she thought it was a bullet and I think he did too---thought it was gun---I believe he did too.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, did Governor Connally say anything about hearing President Kennedy say anything?

Dr. SHIRES. No--no, he didn't.

Mr. SPECTER. Did Mrs. Connally say anything about whether President Kennedy said anything?

Dr. SHIRES. No, she didn't. She remembered Mrs. Kennedy saying some things, but she didn't remember anything about the President having uttered a word.

Dr. SHIRES. Oh, it's vague, even in my memory, but things to the effect that her husband had been shot and---well, that was really the essence of it. It wasn't phrased that way.

Mr. SPECTER. Focusing on the time sequence---what did Governor Connally say as to the timing, number one, the time he was hit, and number two, the time he had heard a sound, and number three, the time he turned-those three factors? In what sequence did he relate them?

Dr. SHIRES. As he recalled it, he heard a shot, he turned to the right and felt himself receiving a shot--in that order--in a matter of a few seconds

Mr. SPECTER. Where did he feel himself receive a shot?

Dr. SHIRES. In the right chest.

Mr. SPECTER Did he make any comment about feeling anything in his wrist?

Dr. SHIRES. No; I don't believe he did.

Mr. SPECTER How about feeling anything in his thigh?

Dr. SHIRES. I don't believe he ever commented on that to me.

Mr. SPECTER Did he say anything else to you at 'that time about his recollections on the day of the assassination?

Dr. SHIRES. No; other than this striking feeling he had after he was hit, that someone was trying to kill all of them---apparently he remembers that quite clearly, right after he was hit, but that's all.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you discuss his recollection of the events of the assassination day with Governor Connally on any other occasion?

Dr. SHIRES. Oh, yes; sporadically, during his convalescence.

Mr. SPECTER What else did he say to you at any other time?

Dr. SHIRES. He was just simply asking questions about things that happened to him in the Emergency Room, in the Operating Room, and he was a little surprised that he didn't recall them better, but this was after he was wounded in here, but that was really the main thing---he was surprised that he didn't remember some of the things--like the cutdowns for blood and that sort of thing that were done to him, and, of course, this is obviously because he was so anoxic at the time.

Mr. SPECTER. Did he ever describe anything in more detail in his recollection

of the things on the day of the assassination?

Dr. SHIRES. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, going back to the first conversation you had with Mrs. Connally on November 22d, did she say anything more to you other than that which you have already testified about?

Dr. SHIRES. No---those were mainly the remarks that she made. I don't remember any others, except---well, no---most of the others were---we were discussing the Governor's condition and outlook and chances for recovery and that sort of thing.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, looking again at Diagram No. 5, what is your professional opinion, if you have one, as to whether Governor Connally's chest injury, wrist injury, and thigh injury were caused by the same bullet?

Dr. SHIRES. Well we all thought, me included, that this was probably one missile, one bullet.

Mr. SPECTER. When you say "we all thought," whom. do you mean by that?

Dr. SHIRES. Dr. Shaw, Dr. Gregory---as we were reconstructing the events

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in the operating room in an attempt to plot out trajectory as best we could, this appeared to be our opinion.

Dr. SHIRES. I guess nearly all of them we have listed.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. McClelland, Dr. Baxter and Dr. Patman?

Dr. SHIRES. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. How about Dr. Osborne and Dr. Parker?

Dr. SHIRES. They were working with Dr. Gregory. If they discussed it, I'm sure they did---it was before I got there.

Mr. SPECTER. How about Dr. Boland and Dr. Duke who worked with Dr. Shaw?

Dr. SHIRES. Now, again, I talked to them and they were discussing it as they did the chest procedure, and again thought the same thing. Everyone was under the impression this was one missile---through and through the chest, through and through the arm and the thigh.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there any one of the doctors on either of these three teams who had a different point of view?

Dr. SHIRES. Not that I remember.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you think it is possible that Governor Connally could have been struck by two bullets, one entering his back and emerging from his chest and the second going into his wrist?

Dr. SHIRES. I'm sure it is possible, because missile sites are so variable, depending upon the size of the bullet, the speed at which it travels, whether it was tumbling or not. We have seen all kinds of combinations of entrance and exit wounds and it's just impossible to state with any certainty, looking at a given wound, what the nature of the missile was, so I am sure it is possible.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you think it is possible that, assuming a missile being a bullet 6.5 ram. with a velocity of over 2,000 feet per second, and the distance between the weapon and the victim being approximately 160 to 250 feet, that the same bullet might have passed through President Kennedy, entering his back near the midline and emerging from his neck, and then entering Governor Connally in the back and emerging from his chest, into his wrist, through his wrist and into the thigh?

Dr. SHIRES. I assume that it would be possible. The main thing that would make me think that this was not the case in that he remembers so distinctly hearing a shot and having turned prior to the time he was hit, and in the position he must have been, particularly here in Figure 5, I think it's obvious that he did turn rather sharply to the right and this would make me think that it was a second shot, but this is purely conjecture, of course.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, is there anything, aside from what he told you, that is, anything in the characteristics of the wounds on President Kennedy and the wounds on Governor Connally which would lead you to conclude that it was not the same bullet?

Dr. SHIRES. No--there is nothing. It could have been---purely from the standpoint of the wounds, it is possible.

Mr. SPECTER. You referred just a minute ago to his turning position?

Dr. SHIRES. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Is the postulation of a turning by Governor Connally necessary to explain the point of entry in the back, exit in the chest, entry in the wrist, and exit in the wrist, and entry into the thigh, in order to have that line---to state it differently, is it necessary to postulate turning by the Governor?

Dr. SHIRES. Depending upon the angle of the trajectory---I suppose not. I don't know what the angle of the trajectory was from where the bullet was fired.

Mr. SPECTER. Assuming an angle of declination of approximately 45 degrees?

Dr. SHIRES. This, I don't know without drawing it out, but as long as his right arm is drawn in front of him next to the exit wound on the chest, he is in a sitting position, if the angle of declination was right, then I think he could have received this facing straight forward.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, on the wrist, would that be palm of the wrist, back of the wrist, or how?

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Dr. SHIRES. I don't understand.

Mr. SPECTER. In what position would the wrist have had to be in, in order to have the same bullet make all three wounds?

Dr. SHIRES. The main point was that his arm be up here. In other words, in some fashion, however his hand happened to be turned, but he had to have his right arm raised up next to his chest.

Mr. SPECTER. His wrist would have to be up with the palm down, would it not?

Dr. SHIRES. As depicted here.

Mr. SPECTER. In order for the point of entry to be on the dorsal side?

Dr. SHIRES. That's right, again, which makes it a little more likely he was turning, since ordinarily you pronate your wrist as you turn, whereas, this would have' been a little strange for him to have been sitting like this, but again, depending on what he had in his hand. It's just a question of which side is up.

Mr. SPECTER. But it would be more natural, you say, for the palm to be down in the turning, which was as contrasted with a relaxed sitting position where it would be more likely his palm would be facing in towards his chest area?

Dr. SHIRES. Right.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any knowledge as to the damage which was done to the rib?

Dr. SHIRES. Only from hearsay from Dr. Shaw, that's all.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any knowledge as to what fragments there were in the chest, bullet fragments, if any?

Dr. SHIRES. No, again except from postoperative X-rays, there is a small fragment remaining, but the initial fragments I think Dr. Shaw saw before I arrived.

Mr. SPECTER. How about the fragments in the wrist, do you have any knowledge of that?

Dr. SHIRES. Again, there were small fragments which I saw during the procedure on the wrist, but I was not directly involved in that procedure.

Mr. SPECTER. What opinion do you have, if any, Dr. Shires, as to whether the wound in the thigh might have been inflicted from a missile that did not pass through any other part of the Governor's body, assuming that it was a 6.5-mm. bullet with a muzzle velocity of 2,000 feet per second, traveling approximately 160 to 250 feet between the end of the weapon and the point of impact on the thigh?

Dr. SHIRES. Well, again, in that wound---it was strange in that the hole in the skin was too large for the amount of damage inflicted on the underlying tissues, so that had this been the case, this would have had to have been a tangential wound. Had it been a tangential wound, then it's possible that small fragments could have gone into bone as it did and that the damage to the soft tissues was done only by that small fragment, so that the major portion of the bullet simply hit the skin in a tangent and went on in its course elsewhere.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, is it possible that the bullet could have hit Governor Connally with the thigh being the initial point of impact and do the damage which was done there with the high velocity missile that I have just described for you?

Dr. SHIRES. Is it possible to get a wound like that?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes, sir.

Dr. SHIRES. Yes; as long as it's on a tangent.

Mr. SPECTER. Is it likely to receive a wound like that from a high velocity weapon of 2,000 feet per second and at about 160 to 250 feet?

Dr. SHIRES. If it's a tangential wound, tangential wounds can be very strange. A large bullet can cause a small hole if its on a tangent or a small bullet can rip out a fairly large hole on a tangent. It just depends on the time of contact and the angle of contact with the skin. That's why it's awfully hard to predict.

Mr. SPECTER. So that wound could have either been the first striking of the Governor from the bullet, or it could have been from a missile whose velocity

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was spent after going through President Kennedy and through the Governor's body and wrist and then caused that wound in the thigh?

Dr. SHIRES. That's right, if it was a tangential bullet.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shires, have you ever been contacted by any representative of the Federal Government prior to today?

Dr. SHIRES. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And who was it who contacted you?

Dr. SHIRES. I don't recall the name---it was two individuals from the Secret Service. They presented their credentials at the time to the administration and then subsequently to me and they were given copies of our operative reports, statements made by people concerned with the President and Governor at the time, and then subsequently one of those same two men from Secret Service returned and charted the entrance and exit wounds which you have described previously, or we have looked at previously in these five diagrams.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever been interviewed by any other representative of the Federal Government before today?

Dr. SHIRES. No; not in person. I discussed over the phone with the FBI--- well, that was with regard to Oswald. I discussed over the phone what happened to the bullet that was taken from Oswald, but not with regard to the President or the Governor---no.

Mr. SPECTER. On your prior interviews by the Secret Service, sir, did they cover the same subjects which you and I have gone over today, or were other subjects covered?

Dr. SHIRES. No; essentially the same subjects.

Mr. SPECTER. And was any different information given to you by the Secret Service at that time of either of those two occasions?

Dr. SHIRES. No; the same as we have discussed here.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, prior to the time when you were sworn in and the court reporter started to take the deposition in shorthand form, did you and I have a brief discussion about the purpose of the deposition and the subject matters of interest to the Commission?

Dr. SHIRES. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And was the same information given by you to me during the course of that informal discussion as you have testified to on the record here this afternoon?

Dr. SHIRES. Yes; in less detail.

Mr. SPECTER. And do you have anything which you would care to add which

you think might be helpful to the Commission in its work?

Dr. SHIRES. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, fine, that concludes the deposition, thank you very much, Dr. Shires.

Dr. SHIRES. Are you interested in Oswald---that's my only other question?

Mr. SPECTER. Well, let's talk about it a little off the record.

(Discussion between Counsel Specter and witness Dr. Shires off the record at this point.)

Mr. SPECTER. Let's go back on the record. Dr. Shires, before concluding the deposition, permit me to ask you Just a few additional questions about care for Lee Harvey Oswald.

First of all, I again show you Commission Exhibit No. 392, the last two pages which purport to he an operative record of Parkland Memorial Hospital on November 24, 1963, concerning treatment of Mr. Oswald, with you listed as the surgeon, and I'll ask you to take a look at these two sheets and tell us whether or not that is a report which you prepared on treatment of Mr. Oswald?

Dr. SHIRES. Yes, it is.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you outline in a very general way what his condition was when you first saw him?

Dr. SHIRES. When he was first seen in the emergency room, he was unconscious, without blood pressure or pulse, but with an audible heart beat, and attempts, feeble though they were, attempts in respiration. There was an entrance wound over the left lower chest and the bullet could be felt subcutaneously over the lower chest lateral projecting this trajectory through the body and looking

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at his general condition, it was fairly obvious that the bullet had transgressed virtually every major organ and vessel in the abdominal cavity, which later proved to be the case.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you do for him?

Dr. SHIRES. He was given resuscitation, including an endotracheal tube, intravenous fluids, blood, moved to the operating room, prepared, draped, an abdominal incision, laparotomy made, just as is described in the record. The injuries were in fact mortal and involved both major vessels in the abdomen, the aorta, the inferior vena cava, and there had been massive exanguinating hemorrhage into the abdomen--in and around the abdomen.

After securing control of all the many, many bleeding points and the bleeding organs, he never had regained consciousness. Approximately 15, 16--whatever it is, approximately, pints of blood had been given, and he had suffered irreparable anoxia from the initial massive blood loss incident to the gunshot wound. When his heart did stop, even though we felt this was a terminal cessation of heartbeat, efforts were made at resuscitation by open heart massage and all that went with it, but never once was an effective heartbeat obtained, so that our initial impression was that it was correct in that this was simply cardiac death and not cardiac arrest.

Mr. SPECTER a. Did you come close to saving him, in the vernacular---in lay terms?

Dr. SHIRES. There has never been recorded in medical literature recovery from a wound like this. There was too much blood lost too fast. Had the injury occurred fight outside the operating room, it might have been possible to reduce the period of anoxia that comes from overwhelming blood loss like this, sufficiently to have corrected it. We did control all the bleeding points with a lot of difficulty, finally all bleeding points were controlled and this was a mortal wound--there was no question about that.

Mr. SPECTER. Are the details of your observations, examination, and treatment of Mr. Oswald set forth in the two pages of this report which I have just shown you in Commission No. 392?

Dr. SHIRES. Yes, the operative reports that are contained there.

Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much, Dr. Shires.

Dr. SHIRES. Thank you.

DONOVAN Volume VIII

TESTIMONY OF JOHN E. DONOVAN

The testimony of John E. Donovan was taken at 10:30 a.m., on May 5, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Mr. John Hart Ely, member of the staff of the President's Commission. Richard M. Mosk, also a member of the staff, was present.

Mr. ELY. Would you stand, please?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. DONOVAN. I do.

Mr. ELY. Please be seated. My name is John Ely.

The gentleman directly to my right is Richard Mosk. We are both members of the staff of the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy, which was appointed by President Johnson to investigate all the facts and circumstances surrounding the death of President Kennedy.

The rules of the Commission require that I give to you a copy of the Executive Order No. 11130, which is the President's order creating this Commission, a copy of the Joint Resolution of Congress, and a copy of the Commission's rules which relate to the questioning of witnesses.

Is it correct to say that I have given you a copy of each of these documents?

Mr. DONOVAN. You gave them to me, and I gave them a cursory reading.

Mr. ELY. Would you state your full name, please?

Mr. DONOVAN. John E. Donovan.

Mr. ELY. And where do you live?

Mr. DONOVAN. 2009 Belmont Road, NW., Washington, D.C.

Mr. ELY. What is your occupation?

Mr. DONOVAN. I teach school at Ascension Academy, Alexandria, Va.

Mr. ELY. And prior to teaching at Ascension Academy, what did you do?

Mr. DONOVAN. I attended medical school last year at Georgetown University.

Mr. ELY. You did not, however, get a medical degree?

Mr. DONOVAN. That is correct.

Mr. ELY. Previous to attending medical school, what did you do?

Mr. DONOVAN. I attended the University of Dayton; Dayton, Ohio.

Mr. ELY. This is after you got out of the Marine Corps?

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Mr. DONOVAN. Yes. Eight months prior to that, I worked for a bank Boston, Mass. Prior to that, I was employed by the U.S. Marine Corps.

Mr. ELY. For how long?

Mr. DONOVAN. Three years and 3 months, I think.

Mr. ELY. And what was the rank at which you were discharged?

Mr. DONOVAN. First lieutenant.

Mr. ELY. You had had higher education before you entered the Marine Corps?

Mr. DONOVAN. Prior to the Marine Corps I completed Georgetown University School of Foreign Service in 1956.

Mr. ELY. And you received a bachelor of arts degree?

Mr. DONOVAN. A bachelor of science, foreign service.

Why don't you, in your own words, outline your contact with Oswald, and I will interrupt with questions.

Mr. DONOVAN. In the spring of 1959, I returned from a tour in Japan. I was assigned to Marine Air Control Squadron 9 in Santa Ann, Calif.

Mr. ELY. Excuse me. There is something in these service records that confuses me. Is the installation at Santa Ana separate from the one at El Toro?

Mr. DONOVAN. It comes under the command of El Toro, but it is, I believe, 5 miles removed.

El Toro is a jet type base. Santa Ana is still known by the title of "LTA", which stands for lighter than air, which stems from the fact that in World War II it was a blimp base. It is now a helicopter base and a radar base.

In that spring, I was the assistant operations officer and the training officer at Marine Air Control Squadron 9, and it is there that I came into contact with Oswald.

Mr. ELY. What was your rank at this time?

Our function at that base was to surveil for aircraft, but basically to train both enlisted and officers for later assignment overseas. Some of my fellow officers there had served with Oswald in Japan, and as all ranks, from generals to privates probably do, they discussed their contemporaries and how to get along with them.

I was informed that Oswald was very competent, but a little bit nuts on foreign affairs.

Mr. ELY. Who told you this?

Mr. ELY. Let me interrupt a moment to define a little more closely the relationship between you and Oswald.

Would it be a fair characterization to say that you were his commanding officer?

Mr. DONOVAN. No; that is not correct. The commanding officer was a lieutenant colonel. Oswald served on a crew, a radar crew, and on that crew I was the officer in command.

Mr. ELY. I understand. How many men were on the crew?

Mr. DONOVAN. I believe that there were always about three officers and about seven enlisted men. It varied from time to time. We were supposed to have 12 enlisted men, but we were seldom up to strength.

Mr. ELY. So Oswald would have been one of the six or seven enlisted men with whom you were in closest contact?

Mr. DONOVAN. Correct. I served with him on a 4-hour watch once a day, usually five days a week--sometimes that was the morning watch, sometimes the afternoon, and sometimes it was a rather extensive night watch.

During night watch, you had to stay up until all aircraft were in. Often

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this was quite boring. And this is when I had the most occasion to talk to him.

Mr. ELY. It amazed me how much you remembered about Oswald in view of the fact that you were an officer and he was an enlisted man.

Do you think your memory of him is atypical, or would you remember all the enlisted men in that crew approximately the same?

Mr. DONOVAN. I would remember, I believe, all of them equally well. Most of them I had served with in Japan.

Mr. ELY. You had not known Oswald in Japan?

Mr. DONOVAN. If I knew him in Japan, I don't remember. They played football on a team that I coached overseas, which to a degree gives you a common bond.

You were constantly in communication with the center concerning aircraft, if something was going on you talked to them on the intercommunication system. And it was quite ordinary to talk to them, standing at the back of the radar room in off hours.

I think I can remember all the men on that crew pretty well.

Sometimes he was a little moody. But I never heard him wise off to a sergeant or any officer. And in working with most people, as long as they do their job, if they are moody, that is their business.

He was always neat. He was neat. Sometimes his lack of enthusiasm got people in dutch, which the other members of the crew did not always appreciate.

Mr. ELY. When you say he was neat, was your only contact with him in regard to this crew? In other words, it was not your job to inspect his quarters or his rifle or his uniform?

Mr. DONOVAN. His quarters were not exceptionally neat, and I did have occasion to inspect them.

But he always cleaned up sufficiently so that he passed inspection. I don't think he was that way by nature. But I think he had figured out that the Marine Corps demanded this of him. And he at least complied in that respect.

Mr. ELY. Do you remember an occasion on which he was transferred out of a quonset hut because of a refusal to clean up?

Mr. DONOVAN. I recall that there was some difficulty. Two or three inspections had gone badly. And that the other members of his quonset hut said he was at fault. It is difficult for a sergeant ever to say who is at fault. But after the complaints came in long enough, I believe he was transferred to another hut.

Mr. DONOVAN. Sloppy--no; he was not sloppy.

Mr. ELY. I wonder, Mr. Donovan, if you could return to your description of the way Oswald performed his job, perhaps with particular reference to how he reacted to stress situations.

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arose, and in turning around and reporting it to the crew chief and to myself---and to me, simultaneously, he would tell you what the status of the emergency was, if anyone could tell, and what he thought the obvious action we should take. And he was right. There was usually an obvious solution. Then he waited fox you to tell him what to do, and he did it, no matter what you told him.

Mr. ELY. Did he remain calm at all times; or was he excitable with regard to his job?

Mr. DONOVAN. I don't recall him being particularly excitable.

Mr. ELY. Would you characterize him as "very cool," or do you think that might be overstating the case in the other direction?

Mr. DONOVAN. I just think in that respect he was normal.

Mr. ELY. Did you have occasion to observe the relation between Oswald and his fellow enlisted men?

Mr. DONOVAN. At times; yes.

Mr. ELY. Did it seem that he was normal to you with regard to mixing with his peers?

Mr. DONOVAN. No; he did not share a common interest with them. For better or for worse, the average young American male in that age is interested in saving enough money to go buy another beer and get another date. This I don't believe would characterize him at all. He read a great deal.

Mr. ELY. Excuse me. Do you remember anything that he read specifically?

Mr. DONOVAN. No; I know that the men always told me that he subscribed to a Russian newspaper.

Mr. ELY. When you say Russian newspaper, do you recall whether that was one printed in the Russian language?

Mr. DONOVAN. No; I do not.

Mr. ELY. You never saw that newspaper?

Mr. DONOVAN. I never saw the newspaper.

Mr. ELY. Did you ever question Oswald about his reading of it?

Mr. DONOVAN. Yes; I did. And he did not apparently take this stuff as gospel--although----

Mr. ELY. When you say that, are you implying that it not only was a Russian newspaper, but it was also a Communist newspaper?

Mr. DONOVAN. Yes; I implied that. And I felt that he thought this presented a very different and perhaps equally just side of the international affairs in comparison with the United States newspapers.

Mr. ELY. Was 'the paper printed in Russia, do you know?

Mr. DONOVAN. I do not know.

Mr. ELY. And, of course, you don't know the name of the paper?

Mr. DONOVAN. That is correct.

Mr. ELY. Did he tell you at that time why he subscribed to the paper?

Mr. DONOVAN. Yes; he said he was interested in learning Russian. And he took great pride in the fact that he could speak it. He couldn't prove it by me, because I don't speak Russian. But he said he could, and his contemporaries believed he could. As far as I know, he could.

Mr. ELY. But you also got the idea that he enjoyed this paper for its ideological content?

Mr. DONOVAN. To a degree. I think he enjoyed international affairs in all respects. He enjoyed studying them. He thought there were many great---there were many grave injustices concerning the affairs in the international situation.

His bend with me was that I was a recent graduate of the Foreign Service School, at least fairly well acquainted with situations throughout the world. And he would take great pride in his ability to mention not only the leader of a country, but five or six subordinates in that country who held positions of prominence. He took great pride in talking to a passing officer coming in or out of the radar center, and in a most interested manner, ask him what he thought

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of a given situation, listen to that officer's explanation, and say, "Thank you very much."

As soon as we were alone again, he would say, "Do you agree with that?"

In many cases it was obvious that the officer had no more idea about that than he did about the polo races---or polo matches in Australia.

And Oswald would then say, "Now, if men like that are leading us, there is something wrong--when I obviously have more intelligence and more knowledge than that man."

And I think his grave misunderstanding that I tried to help him with is that these men were Marine officers and supposed to be schooled in the field of warfare as the Marine Corps knows it, and not as international political analysts. And in some respects he Was probably better informed than most people in the Marine Corps, namely, on international affairs.

Mr. ELY. Do you remember any specific international events or situations which he questioned officers about?

Mr. DONOVAN. No; not particularly.

I know that Cuba interested him more than most other situations. He was fairly well informed about Mr. Batista. He referred to atrocities in general, not in particular. I think that we all know that there were injustices committed under the Batista administration. And he was against that. And he was against this sort of dictatorship.

But I never heard him in any way, shape or form confess that he was a Communist, or that he ever thought about being a Communist.

Mr. ELY. What did he say?

Mr. DONOVAN. I don't recall any particulars, except that it was a godsend that somebody had overthrown Batista.

Mr. ELY. Did he ever express to you any desire that he personally would take part in clearing up injustices, either in Cuba or anywhere else?

Mr. DONOVAN. He not only never said it to me, I never heard of him saying it to anyone else.

Mr. ELY. Based on your observation of men throughout your military career, would you say that Oswald constituted a typical case of someone whose interests were different from the rest of the enlisted men? Do you think that his loneliness, his desire to be alone, exceeded that or would you say it was a more or less normal thing for somebody interested in other things?

Mr. ELY. You mentioned that the sort of unit with which you were associated was one that drew enlisted men of a higher intellectual caliber. For this reason, were there men in the unit who shared Oswald's interests, or even given this he was still the only one interested in serious reading?

Mr. DONOVAN. Not that I know of. But as I have told both the FBI and the Secret Service, he had living in his barracks a boy whose name I am sorry I cannot remember, whose nickname was Beezer.

Mr. ELY. Would the man's name be Roussel?

Mr. DONOVAN. That is it. He was from Louisiana, I believe. And this boy fixed me up with his sister who was an airline stewardess. I took her out on one occasion, I believe that this boy was at least interested enough in Oswald that he fixed Oswald up with her once. And she related to me that he could speak Russian, which I had heard before. And she referred to him as kind of an oddball. You probably have her name and can talk to her.

Mr. ELY. Was her name Rosaleen Quinn?

Would that ring a bell? You don't remember?

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Mr. DONOVAN. No, I am sorry, it doesn't ring a bell.

Mr. ELY. But you feel that if we could locate this woman, she could tell us something that would be of interest in reconstructing his personality?

Mr. DONOVAN. She went out with him once maybe twice. Maybe more than that, I don't know about. I don't know if she could or not.

Mr. ELY. Do you remember any fields other than foreign affairs which Oswald did extensive reading in?

Mr. DONOVAN. No, I do not.

Mr. ELY. Have you ever stated that Oswald prided himself on knowing the names of the great philosophers, or would this statement, if attributed to you, have been a mistake?

Mr. DONOVAN. No, that is a correct statement. He knew the names of some philosophers.

Mr. ELY. Is it your feeling that he read philosophy?

Mr. DONOVAN. Manuscripts are available to all of us which mention these gentlemen's names in support of some idea. Quite often, if you read the philosopher you see that it is taken out of context.

I only had 2 years of philosophy and 2 years of theology at Georgetown. But even with that limited amount, it was obvious that he often knew the name, and that was it.

Mr. ELY. Do you remember any of the philosophers that he did mention?

Mr. DONOVAN. Hegel, which would be appropriate concerning his later action.

Mr. ELY. Hegel.

Did he mention Marx?

Mr. DONOVAN. No, I don't recall him--oh, he must have mentioned Marx, but I don't ever recall him using Marxist philosophy to support anything in particular.

Mr. ELY. Is it your general impression that the philosophers who interested him were ones that were somehow tied in with political philosophy?

Mr. DONOVAN. Social revolutions.

Mr. ELY. Do you know whether Oswald had any knowledge of languages other than Russian and English?

Mr. DONOVAN. No, I do not. I recall that we had occasion to speak Spanish on the radio, because ham operators from Mexico were forever cutting in. He may have known a few words. But he did not--I don't believe he had a command of Spanish.

Mr. ELY. You have no recollection of his speaking or understanding German at all?

Mr. DONOVAN. I have no recollection.

Mr. ELY. Did he ever speak to you about his plans for after he got out of the Marine Corps?

Mr. DONOVAN. No, I cannot say that he did.

Mr. ELY. Did he ever express to you an interest in attending school anywhere?

There was another boy named Sergeant Park, from Washington, who, I believe, lived in his same quonset hut, who definitely intended to attend school. I have given this gentleman's name to both the FBI and the Secret Service.

Mr. ELY. Did Oswald ever mention to you that he would like to attend school in any foreign country?

Mr. DONOVAN. Never. It came as a complete surprise to me that he had turned up in Moscow.

Mr. ELY. In fact, he never mentioned thoughts of traveling at all anywhere outside the country.

Mr. DONOVAN. He never mentioned it to me.

Mr. ELY. Did you ever hear of his mentioning it to anybody else?

Mr. DONOVAN. I never heard of it being mentioned to anyone. Evidently that was a rather well kept secret, that he intended to depart so suddenly.

Mr. ELY. You mentioned that Oswald spoke of injustices which took place

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during the Batista regime. Do you remember his referring to any other country specifically with regard to injustices?

Mr. DONOVAN. No, I don't, except for Asia in general. I think in talking with the FBI and the Secret Service I mentioned Guatemala or something, and I tried to tell them that was only all example, that I never heard him specifically refer to Guatemala, or Venezuela, or wherever I was talking with them about.

But he had served in the Orient, and he had seen poverty in the extreme, as anyone who goes to the Orient does, and he had mentioned that that was unjust.

Mr. DONOVAN. Yes. I would say that he was particularly interested in Latin America. He, for instance, was relatively familar with the Betancourt family, which is a prominent North, South American and Central American family, and their regime as a family.

Mr. ELY. Did he ever mention the Dominican Republic by name?

Mr. DONOVAN. If he did, I don't recall it.

Mr. ELY. Did he ever have any specific suggestions as to what should be done about problems in Asia or Latin America?

Mr. DONOVAN. No. His only solution that I could see was that authority, particularly the Marine Corps, ought to be able to recognize talent such as his own, without a given magic college degree, and put them in positions of prominence. His talent was obviously unrecognized by the Marine Corps for commission or staff NCO ability, if it existed.

Mr. ELY. This is his opinion?

Mr. DONOVAN. This is his opinion.

Mr. ELY. You mentioned that Oswald did not, in your view, have an inordinate interest in competitive sports.

Do you remember any excursions into the field of competitive sports?

Mr. DONOVAN. Yes; he went out for the squadron football team, and I believe he played end. As I stated before, he often tried to make calls in the huddle for better or for worse, again, I should say, a quarterback is in charge of the team and should make the calls. A quarterback did. And I don't know if he quit or I kicked him off. But, at any rate, he stopped playing.

Mr. ELY. Let me make a comment with regard to something you said.

Undoubtedly there are many things you covered with the FBI and the Secret Service. We now have to bring them out under oath, so we can introduce them into the record of the Commission. So we know we are being repetitive. We will just ask you to bear with us on this.

Were you the captain of this team?

Mr. DONOVAN. No; I was the coach of the team. The captain was a gentleman named Tibbet Czik, and Captain Czik is still on active duty in the Marine Corps. Last summer he was stationed at New River, N.C. And Captain Czik would not remember this fellow very well, because at that time he was recently reinstated in the Marine Corps after having been out for a few years. He knew at that time very little about radar and was in a more or less student status. I don't believe he would remember him.

Mr. ELY. Was Czik the quarterback?

Mr. DONOVAN. Czik was the quarterback. Czik was the quarterback all through college of some college in New Jersey, and had a lot of talent.

Mr. ELY. Was Oswald a proficient football player?

Mr. DONOVAN. No; he had his share of ability. But he was too light. I think the boy only weighed about 125, 130 pounds, as I remember. He had a slender build.

Mr. ELY. Would you say, however, that he was normal in terms of speed and agility?

Mr. DONOVAN. Oh, yes; he was fast enough.

Mr. ELY. So would you characterize him as athletic, but too light to be a really good football player?

Mr. DONOVAN. I don't think that he would ever make first string high school in a good high school.

Mr. ELY. On any kind of team, or are you just speaking about football?

Mr. DONOVAN. Football. I never saw him play basketball that I recall, although

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he might have been talented in that field. He was coordinated to normal degree.

Mr. ELY. Did you notice any special lack of team spirit on his part?

Mr. DONOVAN. Yes; like the other experiences I had with him, he thought he should be boss, and when he was not immediately accepted as such, there was discontent on his part, which, of course, is lack of team spirit.

Mr. ELY. You mentioned earlier that you at times inspected Oswald's quarters. Did you have occasion to inspect his rifle?

Mr. DONOVAN. Yes; I did. And I don't recall anything out of order.

Mr. ELY. Are you saying that you don't recall the results of this inspection, or that you do recall the results of the inspection and that you don't remember that his rifle was extraordinarily sloppy?

Mr. DONOVAN. I don't recall that his rifle was extraordinarily sloppy. I do recall, after having talked with you about it, the barracks incident, in which there was some discontent on the part of his contemporaries that the hut was being punished for his lack of order.

Mr. ELY. But your impression is that he kept his rifle as neat as anybody else?

Mr. DONOVAN. I don't recall to the contrary.

Mr. ELY. Would you have any reason to have an impression as to Oswald's proficiency in firing the rifle?

Mr. DONOVAN. No; I would not. I saw his record book, and I believe at that time he was qualified as a sharpshooter--or maybe a marksman. If he had not been qualified as a marksman, which is the minimum standard, I am sure I would have been aware of it, because I was training officer, and that is one of the things that you must try to train men in.

Mr. ELY. But you never had occasion to be with him when he fired a rifle?

Mr. DONOVAN. That is correct.

Mr. ELY. The marksmanship scores which are recorded in the Marine Corps--are they reliable, or is there an opportunity to falsify a score?

I don't personally know of it ever having happened, but it might. If he had a score of 210, which would make him sharpshooter, I would assume that from the standing position he could hit a 10-inch bullseye 8 times out of 10.

Mr. ELY. Do you know how the score was recorded? Did the firer of the weapon ever go down personally to inspect the target?

Mr. ELY. In order that a friend could cheat for you, he would have to know ahead of time which point you were firing on, get to that point, and punch the target before the NCO got there?

Mr. ELY. Earlier in your deposition you stated, I believe, that you never heard Oswald wise off to any NCO. When speaking to the FBI, did you characterize him as a wise guy, or is that the agent's characterization?

Mr. DONOVAN. He was a wise guy in the sense that he could be disrespectful in a way that you would accept. He would in a very respectful manner argue with someone and in most cases it was obvious to people listening that he knew

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more than the person he was arguing with. We had one fellow on our crew, a S. Sgt. Cornelius Brown, and Sergeant Brown is the most competent sergeant in the field of radar that I have ever encountered. Sergeant Brown could barely write. He could read, but again barely read. He could read a newspaper.

But most people like to think they are well informed on all subjects. And it was characteristic of Oswald to bait people, particularly on foreign affairs. He would listen interestedly, ask questions in an interested manner, and then if the person were not too high in rank, could point out a dozen places they didn't know what they were talking about.

Mr. ELY, Do you feel that he ever asked questions about foreign affairs because he truly wanted to know the person's opinion?

Mr. DONOVAN. No; I think his mind was made up. I think he wanted to ask questions to later expose to his comrades that he knew far more than a person in a position of authority. I think he tried to make. it evident to his contemporaries that in many cases he was more gifted and more intelligent than people who were in charge of him. And this in itself was ridiculous---according to his way of thinking. I don't think that he ever asked information of anyone on foreign affairs, including me, whose opinion he particularly respected. He had his mind made up and was willing to discuss that point of view with anyone.

Mr. ELY. How did Oswald's fellow enlisted men react to his baiting of NCOs and officers?

Mr. DONOVAN. Well, sometimes, if he tried to humiliate the sergeant in the presence of others, the sergeant has many ways of getting even, and he can make a cleanup detail much more detailed, he can make barracks inspections much more frequently, and I don't think this particularly made his fellow marines enthusiastic about his attitude.

Mr. ELY. Do you think his fellow marines accepted his view that he was brighter than the officers he was talking to?

Mr. DONOVAN. Yes; I think that they accepted the view that he was brighter than most people, and was particularly capable in the field of world affairs. In respect to them, I think he knew more than they did, at least in facts.

I think they admired his ability to pursue Russian on his own and learn it. And I think anyone must admit that this reflects a degree of intelligence.

Mr. ELY. While you and Oswald were in the same unit, was he ever in any trouble of a nature which would require administrative action?

Mr. DONOVAN. Not that I recall.

Mr. ELY. Returning to this date that you had with this airline stewardess, did she tell you anything about Oswald?

Mr. DONOVAN. As I recall, the only thing she said was that he was rather strange. And I do recall that either she or her brother at that time mentioned that he does speak Russian and reads Russian newspapers.

Mr. ELY. Did she say in what way he was strange?

Mr. DONOVAN. I don't recall in what way she said he was strange.

Mr. ELY. Did you get the feeling that she hadn't enjoyed herself when she was with him?

Mr. DONOVAN. I got that impression. But I think that they didn't share any common interest. I think he was truly interested in international affairs, and that is not typical of her or other stewardesses I have known.

Mr. ELY. Do you recall the circumstances under which Oswald left the Marine Corps?

Mr. DONOVAN. Yes; I do.

Mr. ELY. Could you relate them to us, please?

I recall that he was gone for some period of time, and shortly before I got out of the Marine Corps, which was mid-December 1959, we received word that he had showed up in Moscow. This necessitated a lot of change of aircraft call signs, codes, radio frequencies, radar frequencies.

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If you had asked me a month after I left that area, I could not have told you any but our own. Had I wanted to record them, I certainly could have secretly, and taken them with me. Unless he intentionally with malice aforethought wrote them down, I doubt if he wonts have been able to recall them a month later, either.

Mr. ELY. You recall that various codes were changed. Now, at what level were these changed? Was this an action of your specific unit, or a fairly widespread action?

Mr. DONOVAN. Well, I did not witness the changing in any other squadrons, but it would have to be, because the code is obviously between two or more units. Therefore, the other units had to change it. These codes are a grid, and two lines correspond.

And he gives the grid that you want, and he reads back "AB," or whatever the reply is supposed to be, the authentication is supposed to be.

Mr. ELY. Are authentication codes changed from time to time as a matter of course?

Mr. DONOVAN. They are changed from time to time, that is right.

Mr. ELY. Are they changed even if there is no specific incident which elicits the change?

Mr. DONOVAN. They are methodically changed anyway. There are some things which he knew on which he received instruction that there is no way of changing, such as the MPS 16 height-finder radar gear. That had recently been integrated into the Marine Corps system. It had a height-finding range far in excess of our previous equipment, and it has certain limitations. He had been schooled on those limitations.

It cannot operate above a given altitude in setting--in other words, you cannot place the thing above a given terrain height.

He had also been schooled on a piece of machinery called a TPX-1, which is used to transfer radio---radar and radio signals over a great distance. Radar is very susceptible to homing missiles, and this piece of equipment is used to put your radar antenna several miles away, and relay the information back to your site which you hope is relatively safe. He had been schooled on this. And that kind of stuff you cannot change

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Mr. DONOVAN. He must have had secret clearance to work in the radar center, because that was a minimum requirement for all of us.

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Mr. ELY. Was the spot at which he worked such that in order to gain admittance one would have to show some sort of credentials?

Mr. ELY Were you the one who picked the crew chief?

Mr. DONOVAN. I was in a rather favorable position, since I was the training officer and assistant operations officer, that I had first choice of crew chiefs. I always picked one of two men either Sgt. Cornelius Brown or Sgt. Eugene Holmburg. I have already told you where Sergeant Brown is.

Sergeant Holmburg is now a commissioned warrant officer and still on active duty in the Marine Corps.

Mr. DONOVAN. There was occasion when Oswald acted as crew chief. If one of these sergeants had another duty somewhere else, and Oswald was senior man present, he was crew chief. And I had no complaint about his work.

Mr. ELY. Did he show any special ability in this direction?

Mr. DONOVAN. Yes; I think he was competent, very competent. And I think

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he did his job well. I don't recall anything coming up that he could not handle.

Mr. ELY. In acting as crew chief, do you think he demonstrated leadership qualities?

Mr. DONOVAN. I don't think he was a leader.

Mr. DONOVAN. I would not hesitate to use him as a crew chief.

Mr. ELY. When the other men in the unit found out that Oswald was in the process of getting a hardship discharge, did they make any offers to help, other than the ones you have mentioned concerning transportation?

Mr. ELY. Did he accept these offers?

Mr. DONOVAN. He did not from me, and to the best of my knowledge he did not from anyone.

Mr. ELY. Did he give a reason for refusing them?

Mr. DONOVAN. He didn't need the help.

Mr. ELY. Did you find out about his attempt to get a hardship discharge through observation of his papers, or did he mention it to you?

Mr. DONOVAN. I have no idea. I don't recall seeing any papers. Just word around the squadron.

Mr. ELY. Would you have any idea of how long in advance of his actual discharge you or others heard about the fact that he was trying to get a discharge?

Mr. DONOVAN. I do not recall.

Mr. ELY. Did he ever discuss with you the reasons for the discharge?

Mr. DONOVAN. I don't recall if he ever discussed them or not. I did know that his mother needed help. And, at that time, I recall that I believed he was a sole surviving son. Since that date I have read that he has a brother. At that time, as I recall, I believed him to be an only son, and his mother needed help.

Mr. ELY. Did you observe on the part of Oswald anything that could be termed mental instability?

Mr. DONOVAN. No; except that he had an extreme passion for this field of foreign affairs---or at least in his discussions with me and they might have been limited to me, I don't know. But it is unusual when anyone is solely interested in one given thing.

Mr. ELY. During discussions of foreign affairs, did he get visibly angry, did he raise his voice?

Mr. DONOVAN. No; he never raised his voice, but he could become passionate in the defense of a point, and become quite enthusiastic in trying to get you to see what he saw.

Mr. ELY. But he always retained physical control of himself, in terms of pounding the table, screaming?

Mr. DONOVAN. Oh, yes; I don't believe he became any more physically worked up than people we talk with every day.

Mr. ELY. Did you observe Oswald to complain about the Marine Corps any more than the average Marine complains about the Marine Corps?

Mr. DONOVAN. No; he stuck in my mind in that respect only because he was particularly opposed to the recognition promotion program. Most guys complain about having to stand so many inspections, having to clean up the barracks so many times, having to go on KP so many times, et cetera.

Mr. ELY. Do you know whether he ever took an OCS qualification exam?

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Mr. DONOVAN. I do not recall that he did.

Mr. ELY. Do you recall any interest on Oswald's part in music?

Mr. DONOVAN. No; I do not.

Mr. ELY. Fine. I am going to run down a list of short questions like that and the answer to many of them may be simply that you don't remember. These are things that have been suggested to us.

Mr. DONOVAN. Yes; I do recall. I have played chess with him some nights. And, as a matter of fact, he was a pretty good chess player. I won the base championship that year in chess. I know that on occasion he beat me. That was not a very big base. But he and I were comparable players. I think I beat him more times than I lost to him.

Mr. ELY. Did he ever have occasion to discuss with you his religious beliefs?

Mr. DONOVAN. I don't recall that he ever expressed any belief in God.

Mr. ELY. Do you recall that he----

Mr. DONOVAN. I don't recall that he ever expressed any denial of God.

Mr. ELY. Never mentioned the subject at all?

Mr. DONOVAN. If he did, I don't recall it.

Mr. ELY. Do you recall his getting into any fights while he and you were at Santa Ana?

Mr. DONOVAN. I do not recall his getting into any fights.

Mr. ELY. I believe you mentioned earlier that he did not seem to you particularly interested in girls.

Was this just because he was interested in other things, or do you have any reason to believe that there was anything abnormal about his desires?

Mr. DONOVAN. I have no reason to suspect that he was homosexual, and in that squadron at that time one fellow was discharged from the service for being homosexual. He was in no way tied in with it that I know of. His lack of interest in girls may be only my belief, because as an officer I cannot have occasion to know him socially, but in our conversations he never was particularly Interested in talking about them.

Mr. ELY. Do you know whether he smoked?

Mr. DONOVAN. I don't recall.

Mr. ELY. Would you say that he had a good sense of humor?

Mr. DONOVAN. If my sense of humor is good, he did not.

Mr. ELY. Did he attempt to be funny?

Mr. DONOVAN. He attempted it at times.

Mr. ELY. And, in your opinion, failed?

Mr. DONOVAN. And in my opinion he was a failure in that respect.

Mr. ELY. You have mentioned that he read a Russian newspaper. Do you remember any other possessions or habits or affectations which would suggest an interest in the Soviet Union?

Mr. DONOVAN. No, I do not.

However, I do recall that in college we had some monumentally boring textbooks to read concerning GATT, et cetera--at least at the time they were monumentally boring. And on occasion he would bring up one of these books--I don't recall which one but say, "Are you familiar with this?" And it was my good fortune to have studied it. And he would ask about something. And in some respects he would ask you about a term he did not know. But he never would ask you about a concept, except in an effort to get you to discuss it or argue it. But he would ask you what some word meant in economics. He was interested in international economics.

Mr. ELY. Could you state for the record what GATT stands for?

Mr. DONOVAN. General Agreement on Trade and Tariff.

Mr. ELY. Do you recall his having any nicknames?

Mr. DONOVAN. Yes.

Mr. ELY. What were they?

Mr. DONOVAN. Ozzie.

Mr. ELY. Anything else?

Mr. DONOVAN. Not that I recall.

Mr. ELY. Did most people call him Ozzie?

Mr. DONOVAN. Or Oz.

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Mr. ELY. Did you ever know or hear of his being in contact with the Cuban consulate, either in person or by mail?

Mr. DONOVAN. I never heard of that.

Mr. ELY. Do you remember whether----

Mr. DONOVAN. Are you talking about then, or now?

Mr. ELY. I am talking about then, right.

Do you recall whether he made any trips, when he had time off?

Mr. DONOVAN. Yes; I think he took a couple of trips down to Tijuana, but I don't think those were for reasons of studying international economies, although they might well have been.

Mr. ELY. Did he ever tell you what he did in Tijuana?

Mr. DONOVAN. Never, and I never inquired.

Mr. ELY. Do you know whether he took any trips to Los Angeles?

Mr. DONOVAN. I don't know it, but I am sure he did, because it was common for all those boys to go in and out of Los Angeles or Hollywood, or up to Disneyland--whether they wanted to go up for a beer or a date or something.

Mr. ELY. Did you notice that he either took more trips than the average marine, or that he took fewer trips?

Mr. DONOVAN. I did not recognize his itinerary as being anything out of the ordinary in that respect.

Mr. DONOVAN. I do not recall his receiving any visitors.

Mr. ELY. Does the name Lieutenant Cupenak mean anything to you?

Mr. DONOVAN. Means absolutely nothing to me.

Mr. ELY. Cupenak does not even sound like any name that means anything to you?

Mr. DONOVAN. Yes, I knew a Lieutenant John Cuaka. C-u-a-k-a. That spelling is strictly phonetic.

Mr. ELY. Was he at Santa Ana at that time?

Mr. DONOVAN. I do not believe he was. I knew him in the Philippines and in Japan. He was a radar maintenance officer that generally served with a GCA, standing for Ground Control Approach unit. But Cupenak doesn't ring a bell at all.

Mr. ELY. Finally, Mr. Donovan, I would like to get your opinion on which of the men who were at. Santa Ana at the time that both you and Oswald were there would be most helpful to us in reconstructing the personality of Oswald. I will mention the names that I have to you, and see whether you think----

Mr. DONOVAN. You mean which in the plural or singular? You want me to say which would be most----

Mr. ELY. I will read the names to you, and you can comment on them individually.

Mr. DONOVAN. I don't recall the name at all.

Mr. ELY. All right.

How about a man named Lewis?

Mr. DONOVAN. Don't recall the name at all.

Mr. ELY. Botelho?

Mr. DONOVAN. Yes, Botelho was a man in our squadron. I cannot recall his face. But I do recall the man being in our squadron. And he went by the nickname, normally enough, of Bo.

Mr. ELY. Do you remember whether or not he knew Oswald well?

Mr. DONOVAN. No, I do not.

Mr. ELY. Do you remember a man named Call?

Mr. DONOVAN. I certainly do. He is from Allentown, Pa. I tried to look him up after my discharge. I was passing through his town. He was a corporal, later sergeant, I believe, buck sergeant.

Mr. ELY. Do you recall whether he knew Oswald?

Mr. DONOVAN. He must have. Call was another boy I played chess with.

Mr. ELY. Would you characterize Call as an intellectual?

Mr. DONOVAN, I would characterize Call as being modestly intelligent--

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modestly not referring to his degree of intelligence, but in reference to his character concerning his intelligence.

Mr. ELY. Do you remember a man named Delgado?

Mr. DONOVAN. I certainly do--quite well. Delgado was on my crew. He was one of the boys that used to speak with the Mexican ham operators to ask them to leave the air when we were talking to aircraft. And Delgado had a command of Mexican more than Spanish. Delgado was a very dependable boy.

Mr. ELY. Do you think he would be able to help us concerning Oswald?

Mr. DONOVAN. He could tell you much more about Oswald's personal life than I can, because he lived in the same barracks area with him; Delgado played on the football team. He many times served on the same crew with Oswald.

Mr. ELY. Do you remember a man named Murray?

Mr. DONOVAN. Yes, Murray was a clerk. He had a radar specialization number, but we used him as a clerk. And, as I recall, he wanted to go back to medical school. I think he was from the South somewhere, I believe. Very efficient, very intelligent, very competent, capable man.

Mr. ELY. Do you recall whether he knew Oswald well, or would it be fair to say that all the men on the crew would know him?

Mr. DONOVAN. Well, Murray I don't think you would say was on the crew so much. Murray, because of his administrative ability, worked more in the office. Murray was married. And that puts him in a little different light, too. I think he was very happily married. At the end of the day he went home whereas Oswald stayed in the barracks area.

Mr. ELY. Do you remember a man named Powers?

Mr. DONOVAN. The name rings a bell, but I don't really remember him.

Mr. ELY. Osborne?

Mr. DONOVAN. Yes.

Mr. ELY. Do you recall whether Osborne was an acquaintance of Oswald's?

Mr. DONOVAN. Yes. Osborne I knew quite well. He played football with us for some time. He must have known him. I don't know if he actually lived in the same barracks. He knew him. I don't know how well he knew him.

Mr. ELY. Now, you have mentioned Captain Trail to us, and also Sergeant Brown.

Mr. DONOVAN. Captain Trail was Lieutenant Trail when I knew him. I think he is now Captain Trail.

Mr. ELY. Yes. Can you think of any other names that neither you nor I have already mentioned?

Mr. DONOVAN. Yes; another fellow that I am sure knew him was a fellow named Elmer Ellsworth Randolph. And he is now a salesman for Brock Candy Co., somewhere in the Chicago area.

Another fellow that probably knows him is now on active duty--Fred Walker. He is a captain. I believe Walker knew him.

Captain Block, Robert Block, was the operations officer at that time. I don't know if he would remember Oswald or not.

Mr. ELY. Do you recall whether Oswald ever went to night clubs? Bars?

Mr. DONOVAN. I think he used to go down to the enlisted men's club to drink beer. I recall going down there one night to talk to some boys on a disturbance and I vaguely remember him being there, but I would not swear to that.

Mr. ELY. Would you have any personal knowledge of whether he attended offpost bars or night clubs?

Mr. DONOVAN. No, I would not.

Mr. ELY. Did he drink more than the average marine, the same amount, less?

Mr. DONOVAN. I believed not. However, after the assassination of President Kennedy, I talked to Lieutenant Trail on the phone and Trail told me that he had been mixed up in some drinking bouts in Japan.

Mr. ELY. But from your own----

Mr. DONOVAN. From my own personal knowledge, I do not know that he drank to excess.

Mr. ELY. But he did drink some?

Mr. DONOVAN. I don't ever recall seeing him drink. But as I recall the conversation, I believe he did. But I don't know that for a fact.

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Mr. ELY. Well, in that case, Mr. Donovan, I think that is all the questions I have for you.

Do you think of anything else that might be helpful to us in trying to figure out what sort of a man Oswald was?

Mr. DONOVAN. There is one name that you did not mention that I know that lived in the same barracks he did. Cpl. Sherman Cooley. He also served on that crew. I served with Cooley overseas, and in Santa Ana. Cooley is another fellow that was intelligent, but very modest about it.

The reason I remember his first name, it always struck me as strange that someone named Sherman would live in Louisiana.

Another boy's name is Dejanovich. That is phonetic. Dejanovich lived in Chicago, and after I was discharged from the service I called him on the phone a couple of times, passing through there.

Another guy that would know him is a boy named Jurarado, I believe. I don't know how much these boys knew about him. They are just people that were there at the same time.

Mr. ELY. Your mention of Dejanovich reminds me of a question I intended to ask you.

Do you recall any of Oswald's former marines calling him Oswaldovich, or anything that sounded like that?

Mr. DONOVAN. No.

Mr. ELY. Do you recall fellow marines referring to him as "Comrade?"

Mr. DONOVAN. No.

Mr. ELY. Well, if you have nothing more to add, Mr. Donovan, on behalf of the Commission, I would like to thank you for giving us your time and testimony. It has been very helpful.

Allison G. Folsom, Lt. Col., USMC

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TESTIMONY OF ALLISON G. FOLSOM, LT. COL, USMC

Dr. DULANEY Volume VI

TESTIMONY OF DR. RICHARD BROOKS DULANY

The testimony of Dr. Richard Brooks Dulany was taken at 6:20 p.m., on March 25, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex. by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that Dr. Richard Dulany is present in response to the request that he appear to have his deposition taken and he has been requested to appear here because he has been identified in prior depositions as perhaps being one of the first doctors to see President Kennedy. Dr. Dulany, have you had an opportunity to examine the Executive Order

creating the President's Commission?

Dr. DULANY. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And the rules and regulations relating to the taking of testimony?

Dr. DULANY. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you willing to have your deposition taken here today, even though you haven't had the 3 days' notice which you have a right to, if you want it?

Dr. DULANY, Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. You are willing to waive that requirement?

Dr. DULANY. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you stand up now and raise your right hand?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give before the President's

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Commission in this deposition proceeding will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Dr. DULANY. I do.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you state your full name for the record?

Dr. DULANY. Richard Brooks Dulany.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your profession?

Dr. DULANY. M.D.---Medical Doctor.

Mr. SPECTER Are you licensed to practice medicine in the State of Texas?

Dr. DULANY. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And would you outline your educational background, please, starting with college---graduation from college?

Dr. DULANY. From college I went to the University Medical School of Oklahoma and then took my internship here at Parkland Hospital and was in the service for 2 years in the Navy, and I just got back from the service in November, and started a residency here in surgery.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to participate in the care of President Kennedy on November 22, 1963?

Dr. DULANY. Is this all recorded now?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes.

Dr. DULANY. Well, as I stated, I principally cared for the Governor and then after his emergency treatment had been cared for, I went into the room where President Kennedy was being cared for.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you present from the start of the Governor's treatment?

Dr. DULANY. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And about what time did you go into the room where the President was being treated?

Dr. DULANY. Well, I believe the Governor was supposed to have been in the surgery suite upstairs within 12 minutes after he came in, and so I'm sure I must have been in the room where the President was, about 7 minutes or so afterwards.

Mr. SPECTER. What time was that, about, as best you can place it?

Dr. DULANY. I don't really recollect the specific times.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe as to the condition of the President when you entered?

Dr. DULANY. Well, at this time his pupils were fixed and dilated and he had a large head wound---that was the first thing I noticed.

There was already a tracheotomy tube in the neck wound or what was later described as a wound, and had a cutdown running and several other doctors were putting chest tubes in.

Mr. SPECTER. What doctors were present at that time?

Dr. DULANY. I really can't be accurate on that. I remember Dr. Clark and Dr. Jenkins and Dr. Giesecke, Dr. Carrico, Dr. Martin White, and of course, the doctor that was probably down first of the staff members, Dr. Malcolm Perry, and I remember Dr. McClelland, and Dr. Peters were in there.

Mr. SPECTER. Are those all the doctors you remember as being down there?

Dr. DULANY. I believe those are all.

Mr. SPECTER. Can you identify any of the nurses who were there?

Dr. DULANY. No, I don't believe so. I can't remember them.

Mr. SPECTER. Is there anything that you think that you know would be helpful to the President's Commission in its inquiry into this matter?

Dr. DULANY. I don't believe I could add anything any more than you probably already know.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any neck wound on the President?

Dr. DULANY. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. SPECTER. The tracheotomy had already been performed?

Dr. DULANY. It had been placed in.

Mr. SPECTER. Had the incision already been made when you first saw the President's neck?

Dr. DULANY. I really didn't examine it close enough to make any statement along that line.

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Mr. SPECTER. Then, did you observe any wound in the President's neck at all?

Dr. DULANY. No, I just know that the tracheotomy was in and later I was told that this was a wound when it was first seen--you know, that's the best I can tell you.

Mr. SPECTER. That's fine, Dr. Dulany, thank you very much for appearing here today.

Dr. DULANY. Yes; thank you.

Ruth Jeanette Standridge

Dr. AKIN Volume VI

TESTIMONY OF DR. GENE COLEMAN AKIN

The testimony of Dr. Gene Coleman Akin was taken at 11:30 a.m., on March 25, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that Dr. Gene Akin is present in response to a letter request that he appear to have his deposition taken in connection with an inquiry being conducted by the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. Dr. Akin is being asked to appear here today to testify concerning his knowledge, if any, about the condition of President Kennedy on arrival in Parkland Hospital and his treatment here.

With that preliminary statement of purpose, Dr. Akin, will you rise and raise your right hand, please?

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you shall give before the President's Commission in this deposition proceeding will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Dr. AKIN. I do.

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Mr. SPECTER. Will you state your full name, please?

Dr. AKIN. Gene Coleman Akin.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your profession ?

Dr. AKIN. Medicine.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you duly licensed to practice in Texas, to practice medicine?

Dr. AKIN. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any specialty?

Dr. AKIN. Anesthesiology.

Mr. SPECTER. And are you board-certified?

Dr. AKIN. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you working toward board-certification ?

Dr. AKIN. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you outline briefly your educational background?

Dr. AKIN. Premedical school at University of Texas in Austin, medical school, Southwestern Medical School Branch of the University of Texas, internship, Dallas Methodist Hospital, and anesthesiology residence at Parkland Memorial Hospital, starting in July 1962.

Mr. SPECTER. And, in what year did you graduate from medical school?

Dr. AKIN. 1961.

Mr. SPECTER. And how old are you at the present time, Doctor?