EUSEBIO
AZCUE HSCA Volume III
TESTIMONY
OF SENOR EUSEBIO AZCUE LOPEZ, FORMER
CUBAN
CONSUL IN
[The examination of Senor Azcue was conducted through the interpreter.]
Mr. CORNWELL. Would you state your name for the record.
Senor AZCUE. Eusebio Azcue Lopez.
Mr. CORNWELL. Senor Azcue, you are presently a resident and a citizen of
Cuba, is that correct?
Senor AZCUE. Yes, sir.
Mr. CORNWELL. What is your age?
Senor AZCUE. 67.
Mr. CORNWELL. And where were you born?
Senor AZCUE.
Mr. CORNWELL. You are presently retired?
Senor AZCUE. Yes, sir, I am retired.
Mr. CORNWELL. In 1963, what was your occupation?
Senor AZCUE. Consul of
Mr. CORNWELL. Senor Azcue, when did you first go to live in
Senor AZCUE. In 1944.
128
Senor AZCUE. I was an architect in
Mr. CORNWELL. For how long a period of time or until what date did you
hold that position?
Senor AZCUE. Until November 18, 1963, though since the month of September
of 1963 I had started to turn over affairs to the new consul who was to replace
me, Mr. Alfredo Mirabal.
Mr. CORNWELL. And on November 18, 1963, when you did ultimately turn over
that position to Senor Mirabal, where did you go?
Senor AZCUE. I went directly and definitively to
Mr. CORNWELL. I would like to direct your attention to an exhibit which
has been marked for identification as JFK exhibit F-408. That exhibit is
provided in an enlargement form, and a photograph of it in a smaller form has
been handed to the witness. Can you tell us what type of document that is?
Senor AZCUE. This form is a request that was given to foreigners who
approached the consulate requesting a visa to travel to
Mr. CORNWELL. May we have that exhibit admitted into evidence, Mr.
Chairman?
Chairman STOKES. Without objection, it may be entered in the record at
this point.
[The information follows:]
129
130
Senor AZCUE. Yes; it is a document that we used at the consulate to be
completed at the request of the applicant.
Mr. CORNWELL. The document bears the date 1963. Would you tell us what
function that document served during that period of time.
Senor AZCUE. This document?
Mr. CORNWELL. That is correct.
Senor AZCUE. We had large amounts of printed forms of this nature, of
these applications, and they had to be completed in sextuplicate, that is to say
six copies of this document, to which were attached their photographs. They had
to affix their signatures, as well as provide all the detailed information that
was required to accompany the request.
Mr. CORNWELL. Senor Azcue, this particular
document bears the name Lee Harvey Oswald, and the date September 27, 1963. Do
you recall the occasion upon which this application was filed with your
consulate?
Senor AZCUE. Fine. This gentleman wants me to narrate the antecedents of
the visits of this individual to the consulate. Is that the nature of the
question?
Mr. CORNWELL. That is correct. If you recall the occasion on which this
specific application was filed, would you describe that occasion for us.
Senor AZCUE. Certainly, with pleasure. Yes, this gentleman appeared on
the date indicated at the consulate, requesting a visa to travel to
Mr. CORNWELL. Senor Azcue, in a previous interview with the staff you
stated that the very first occasion to your memory on which you saw this
individual was 1 to 2 days before the date on this application. Is that still
accurate to the best of your memory?
Senor AZCUE. It is something that I cannot state categorically. I cannot
state whether it was on the very same day, a day before, or several days before,
and I am in a position to explain why.
Mr. CORNWELL. Please do.
Senor
AZCUE. He approaches us. The secretary normally takes care of the case. There is
no need for me personally to go out to see him unless he specifically requests
that I do so, as a special case, that he requests either my presence or the
presence of another Cuban consul responsible. He did so. He requested my
presence because when he initially formulated the application with the
secretary, the secretary explained to him all of the requirements that he would
have to fulfill in order to obtain the visa. And as he was carrying along
certain documents which he believed would be sufficient for the visa, and the
secretary could not resolve the case, he then calls upon me to see whether I,
upon examination of those documents, can proceed to issue the visa immediately.
I answered negatively.
The documents that he submits are not enough. He is exhibiting or
producing documents such as, one, attesting to his membership
131
Upon presentation of these documents, he thinks that I will be able to
solve his problem and grant him a visa.
I at that time tell him that this is not sufficient; that I must request
authorization from the Cuban Government. And at that point he agrees to proceed
to fill the application out in order to process the visa.
At that point, he leaves the consulate, conceivably to look for some
photographs. One could think whether he returned on that very same date with the
photographs; it is possible that he might have returned on that very same date
with the photographs, or that he might have returned the following day.
As far as the date that appears herein, and bearing in mind that I
received him on three occasions, maybe it would be possible to determine that on
this very same date, it is possible, I cannot fully guarantee this, it is
possible that on that same day he might have made the first two visits to the
consulate; one during the morning very early, and the second one a little later,
bringing the photographs in order to complete the application.
There is a sufficient time for such a thing.
Mr. CORNWELL. Was the first visit of this man that you have just
described to us during the normal working hours at the consulate?
Senor AZCUE. Yes, without a doubt. The consulate opened at 10 in the
morning and closed at 2.
Mr. CORNWELL. Directing your attention, then, to the second occasion on
which, as you have just described, the individual returned with photographs
which could be attached to the visa application, what occurred on that second
occasion?
Senor AZCUE. I did not assist. I was not present at the very time when
the secretary receives the photograph and fills the documents. That is a
function that pertains properly to her. He very probably insisted once again on
the need to proceed urgently to
As the amount of time required to process this document by our own
Government was one that I could not predetermine, it could be a matter of 15
days, 20 days, or the response could be negative, during this second visit that
he makes to me I bring up or note that if he already had a visa to go to the
Soviet Union, I would be in a position to grant him a visa to Cuba without the
need to consult my Government, in terms of a transit to the Soviet Union.
This should have been clearly stated or established during the course of
the second visit that he made. Whether it might have been on the same day or 2
days thereafter, I tend to believe that it will have been on the date that
appears on the application, that is to say on the 27th.
Mr. CORNWELL. So the second occasion that you have just described would
have been the date on the visa application, September 27, is that correct?
Senor AZCUE. That is very correct.
Mr. CORNWELL. At the termination of the conversation on this occasion,
what if anything did the individual do?
132
Mr. CORNWELL. After he left on this second occasion, did you have any
conversations with the Soviet Embassy about this routine, in other words, about
the possibility of him obtaining a visa from the Soviet Embassy?
Senor AZCUE. I don't know whether it was that very same day or on the
following day. A few years have gone by since, and it is very difficult to
determine or recall exactly the manner in which the events occurred exactly. It
is possible to reconstruct a sequence.
It could have been that very same day or the following day. But obviously
if the first two visits took place on the 27th, the third visit would have had
to take place on the following day, because in and during the same day it is not
possible to complete three visits that are separated by time, and at the same
time to undertake the necessary actions to obtain the photographs we needed.
In fact, after he left the consulate, I received a telephone call from
the consulate of the
Consequently, I cannot, in turn, grant him a visa to transit
Mr. CORNWELL. After that conversation, did you again see the individual,
did he return to the consulate?
Senor AZCUE. Yes, sir. That was the third and last time I saw him. He
possibly thinking that his documents had been legalized orally, verbally, that I
would consequently change my attitude and in view of the legality of the
document would grant him the visa; these were his hopes. And in addition one
noticed that he was very anxious that we grant him the visa, because we never
had any individual that was so insistent or persistent, in spite of our refusals
which were logical and legal.
Mr. CORNWELL. Did all three of these visits occur during normal working
hours at the consulate?
Senor AZCUE. We never received anybody, any individual, outside these
regular office hours.
Mr. CORNWELL. As I understood your testimony, the first visit may or may
not have been on September 27. The second visit was most probably on September
27. And the third visit would have been most probably on a day afterward, is
that correct?
Senor AZCUE. That is correct. I believe that on the 27th, that was the
day that the application was completed. I have no doubt about it.
133
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The first visit, however, could have been that very same day, earlier in
the day. And the third visit could have taken place the following day or could
have been on the same 27th if the first visit had taken place on the 26th.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But my private opinion, the first two visits took place on the 27th and
the last one, after my conversation with the Soviet consul, was on the following
day, that is to say September 28.
I believe this would be the most reasonable thing if one were to analyze
it.
Mr. CORNWELL. September 27, 1963, was a Friday. Does that mean that the
third visit could have occurred on the following Saturday?
Senor AZCUE. On Saturday, exactly.
Mr. CORNWELL. The consulate was open on Saturday.
Senor AZCUE. Saturday morning--not open to the public.
Mr. CORNWELL. Would you tell us how the conversation on the third visit
ended.
Senor AZCUE. He had great hopes that I would grant him the visa in
transit. When I told him no, that if the Soviet Union does not grant him the
visa as destination of his trip, I cannot grant him an in-transit visa to
He always had a face which reflected unhappiness. He was never friendly.
He was persistent. And he was not pleasant.
So on the last visit, when he loses the opportunity to obtain the visa,
he gets very worked up. And then in English, which is a language that I have not
full command, and all our conversations took place in English, and with great
effort on my part because it is a language that I do not have full command of,
but I do hear him make statements that are directed against us, and he accuses
us of being bureaucrats, and in a very discourteous manner.
At that point I also become upset and I tell him to leave the consulate,
maybe somewhat violently or emotionally. Then he leaves the consulate, and he
seems to be mumbling to himself, and he slams the door, also in a very
discourteous manner. That was the last time we saw him around.
Mr. CORNWELL. Was he with anyone on any of these occasions?
Senor AZCUE. With my colleague, Mirabal, who probably was always with me,
because I was together with him. I was the exiting consul and he was the new
consul. I am handling this case because I had a better knowledge of the English
language than he did. But we were both handling the case, he in order to become
more familiar with the situation and I also in order to train him.
So this was a colleague of mine who saw him, how many times I don't know,
whether on one or two or all three occasions; he was a colleague who was present
there, and I know that he also saw him.
And in addition to Consul Mirabal, he was also seen by the secretary,
because she was the one who took care of his application.
The three of us were the only ones who were able to see Oswald, nobody
else. He could not have seen anybody else, because the business that brought him
to us was one that was of the exclusive responsibility of the consulate. And
therein the only ones present were the three of us.
134
Senor AZCUE. I never saw. The private area of the consulate, from this
private area it is difficult to observe who comes in from the street. My
secretary from the chancery, maybe she was able to see. But whenever I emerged
from that area, and to the chancery, I always saw him alone.
Mr. CORNWELL. Did he say anything in any of the conversations with you
which would have indicated that he either had a companion with him in
Senor AZCUE. No, never. We did not hold any conversations other than
those directly related to the visa.
Mr. CORNWELL. If I could direct your attention again to the JFK exhibit
F-408, I would like to ask you first, was the document signed in your presence?
Senor AZCUE. No. It is not necessary. It is never necessary. This is a
document that is provided to him by the secretary. It is filled in by the
secretary. She affixes the photograph, turns it over to him, and right there he
signs, until it is sent, forwarded to
Mr. CORNWELL. Would it have been necessary, under the usual custom and
practice of your office at that time, for the document to have been signed on
the premises of the consulate?
Senor AZCUE. This document or this application does not leave the desk of
the secretary. She types it out and places the photograph, places the seal, and
hands it over for the individual's signature.
Mr. CORNWELL. You told us earlier that the normal procedure for the
preparation of such applications was that more than one copy of the document was
made, is that correct?
Senor AZCUE. Yes, six. Six photographs, six signatures, and six copies of
the application is complete.
Mr. CORNWELL. Do you feel certain about your memory today as to the
number of copies that are made or were made in 1963?
Senor AZCUE. Yes, absolutely. There was never an exception made. They
come already together in a bunch.
Mr. CORNWELL. The copies as opposed to the original, the carbon copies,
were they signed separately or was the carbon paper used to transfer a signature
from one to the other?
Senor AZCUE. No, one by one, because the paper is very thick. This is
mimeograph-type paper.
Chairman STOKES. Will counsel suspend for a moment? I think this would be
an appropriate place for us to take a 5-minute recess at this time. The Chair
requests that as the witness departs from the room, that all persons remain in
their seats please until the witness has left the room after which we will have
a 5-minute recess.
[A brief recess was taken.]
Chairman STOKES. The committee will come to order.
All persons in the hearing room are requested to remain in their seats
while the witness is being brought in to the witness table.
The Chair recognizes counsel for the committee, Mr. Cornwell.
135
Before we begin again, I believe that we neglected to have the
interpreter identify himself for the record. Would you do so?
Mr. HERVAS. My name is Anthony J. H-e-r-v-a-s.
Mr. CORNWELL. Thank you.
Senor Azcue, I would like at this time to show you JFK exhibit F-407. For
the record, that would appear to be a carbon copy of the previous JFK exhibit
F-408. The previous JFK exhibit, F-408, is a photograph of a visa application
which the staff of this committee took while they were in
The exhibit which we just placed on the easel, JFK F-407, is a photograph
of a visa application which was provided to the
Would the two documents in that form have been expected, based upon the
usual procedures in effect at the consulate in 1963?
Mr. HERVAS. May I ask a question? Did you say would the two documents
have been expected or inspected?
Mr. CORNWELL. Expected to be in that form with those type of variations
based upon the procedures in effect at the consulate in 1963?
Senor AZCUE. Do you have some other copy of the actual size that I could
be able to look at or analyze because from this distance it is for me very
difficult to see the exhibit on the easel.
Mr. CORNWELL. Senor Azcue, would you like to go to the easel to get a
better picture of the blowups? Do the representatives from the National Archives
have a small photograph of that document with them here today?
OK, we do have a smaller photograph we will show the witness. It is also
marked for identification as JFK F-407.
Senor AZCUE. As I stated before, the paper on which the application is
printed is a very thick or heavy paper. So it is not possible to prepare six
copies at one time, not even three in an ordinary typewriter such as the one
Sylvia Duran had in the consulate. Conceivably, she prepared them two at a time,
an original and one copy, an original and one copy, an original and one copy.
So conceivably it is possible that there be some differences between some
of them, between three, for instance.
Mr. CORNWELL. But at any rate your examination of the two documents would
indicate that JFK F-407 is a carbon copy of the original JFK-408; is that
correct?
Senor AZCUE. I am not an expert on these matters, but any one of you
could--and I cannot see very well either and the quality of the copy is not very
clear. However, in looking at these two documents I note that the words appear
exactly one on top of the other in both documents in the same places.
136
In spite of my limitations, I believe I can affirm that this one is the
original and this other one is the copy. One does notice, if one analyzes the
margin on the right side, that the text on both copies coincides perfectly one
with the other. That is very difficult to do otherwise.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mr. CORNWELL. Senor Azcue, the pictures on the upper lefthand portion of
each document would appear to be of the same individual; is that correct?
Senor AZCUE. Yes, sir.
Mr. CORNWELL. Do those pictures of that individual appear to you to be
the same individual who visited the consulate in
Senor AZCUE. Truly, this photograph is one that I saw for the first time
when the honorable
But my belief is that this gentleman was not, is not, the person or the
individual who went to the consulate.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mr. CORNWELL. Directing your attention to the period of time immediately
after the assassination, the day of the assassination or the day after the
assassination, did you during that period of time have an occasion to see
pictures of the alleged assassin in the newspapers or to observe on television
the man identified at that time as Lee Harvey Oswald?
Senor AZCUE. Yes, sir, not so close to the date, not in the first few
days, not immediately thereafter. Some time I calculate approximately-and I say
this because I am not a great movie fan, but it was in mid-December
approximately--I saw at that time the film in which Ruby appears assassinating
the Oswald who was there, and I was not able to identify him and only 2 months
had gone by since I had seen the Oswald who appeared at the consulate. And I had
a clear mental picture because we had had an unpleasant discussion and he had
not been very pleasant to me and I did not recognize when I first saw him. I did
not recognize Oswald.
The man who went to the consulate was a man over 30 years of age and very
thin, very thin faced. And the individual I saw in the movie was a young man,
considerably younger, and a fuller face.
Mr. CORNWELL. What color hair did the individual have to the best of your
memory who visited the consulate?
Senor AZCUE. He was blond, dark blond.
Mr. CORNWELL. Did the individual you saw in the movie, the person who was
killed by Jack Ruby, resemble more closely the individual in these photographs
to your memory than the individual who visited the consulate?
Senor AZCUE. I believe so.
Mr. CORNWELL. I would like to show you JFK exhibit F-434. Do the
representatives from the National Archives have the original or a small
photograph of that exhibit?
137
Chairman STOKES. Without objection it may be entered into evidence.
[The information follows:]
Chairman STOKES. Without objection it may be entered into evidence.
[The information follows:]
138
Senor AZCUE. No.
Mr. CORNWELL. What differences were there?
Senor AZCUE. Many differences. The individual who visited the consulate
is one whose physiognomy or whose face I recall very clearly. He had a hard
face. He had very straight eyebrows, cold, hard, and straight eyes. His cheeks
were thin. His nose was very straight and pointed. This gentleman looks like he
is somewhat heavier, more filled, his eyes are at an angle with the outside of
his
139
I believe I can recall with fairly good accuracy the individual in such a
way that I could recognize him now in a group of 100, that is better than a
photograph of him because obviously during a period of 15 years he might change.
I think I could recognize him, and this is not him.
Mr. CORNWELL. We would like to show you what has been previously admitted
into evidence in this case as Exhibit 194. As you can see, Senor Azcue, the
pictures on the right are simply blowups of the same visa application, but I
would like to direct your attention to the two pictures on the left which come
from photographs taken by the Dallas Police Department.
I ask you if that individual looks like the man who visited the
consulate?
Senor AZCUE. I would have never recognized him as I did not recognize him
in the movie where he dies, and I can, however, identify him as or think of him
as the person who was killed or assassinated by Ruby. It is a question of
personal evaluation on my part. But it is very clearly imprinted.
Mr. CORNWELL. The staff of the committee has had an opportunity to speak
to Mrs. Sylvia Duran, and during the interview with her she expressed no doubt
about the fact that the person who was killed in Dallas by Jack Ruby was the
individual who visited the consulate.
Do you have any reason to question her memory or the reason that her
memory might differ from yours?
Senor AZCUE. Categorically, I could not affirm it without any doubt.
However, it is possible that she might be more susceptible to impression or more
impressionable than I. I remember what I
saw on the film and also what I saw on TV later or maybe before. I remember that
moment when he was killed and I remember I did not recognize him. I did not have
any prejudices or preconceptions.
I wanted to recognize, however, only 2 months had gone by. It was between
September and November. At that time I was much younger. That was 15 years ago,
and I think that because of my own profession I probably had better eyes. And
because of the impression that was made by this person who visited the
consulate, for these reasons, maybe my version is correct or more correct.
Mr. CORNWELL. Thank you. I have no further questions.
Chairman STOKES. At this point the procedure will be as follows: The
Chair will recognize the gentleman from North Carolina, chairman of the Kennedy
subcommittee, Mr. Preyer, for such time as he may consume, after which the
committee will operate under the 5-minute rule.
The Chair recognizes Mr. Preyer.
Mr. PREYER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Azcue, it is good to see you
again.
As I understand it, at the time Lee Harvey Oswald visited the consul in
Senor AZCUE. That is correct.
Mr. PREYER. And you were the consul at that time and Mr. Mirabal was in
training to replace you as consul?
140
Senor AZCUE. I would say it was the opposite. The consul who was already
functioning as such was Mirabal. From the very time he arrived as a designated
consul. When the consul arrives--of course, there could be two or three
consuls--but when the consul arrives, he takes over the functions, the
responsibilities, and I was turning over the official business of the consulate
to him.
Mr. PREYER. What I was getting at was, you had been the consul before Mr.
Mirabal arrived?
Senor AZCUE. Yes.
Mr. PREYER. Mr. Mirabal came to replace you as consul?
Senor AZCUE. Yes.
Mr. PREYER. At the time of the assassination on November 22, you were no
longer in
Senor AZCUE. I had already returned to
Mr. PREYER. You returned to
Senor AZCUE. That was the case. I returned on November 18.
Mr. PREYER. Did your return to
Senor AZCUE. It was not related to any of those things. I returned to
I was not able to return before because they were not sending me a consul
to replace me, and the reason I did not leave immediately upon Mr. Mirabal's
arrival was, first, because I had to train him. He did not have any experience
in the handling of consular affairs there, and, second, because there was a
meeting or congress of consuls being held at that time and I was asked to stay.
This was because of my connections developed over the 5 years that I had spent
there.
Mr. PREYER. So that it is fair to sum up your answer by saying you were
not recalled by the Cuban Government, but, you, at your request, returned to
Mr. HERVAS. Excuse me, sir, did you say at your wish?
Mr. PREYER. Yes, at his wish.
Senor AZCUE. I cannot say it was at my wish exclusively. I need the
permission of the Government of
Mr. PREYER. I would like to turn to the visa application, the JFK exhibit
F-408, for a moment.
In the middle of that document, over on the right-hand side, there is a
printed date that says October 10, 1963. I don't believe there has been any
discussion about that as yet.
Could you tell us what that date is?
141
Senor AZCUE. I will relate the manner in which I believe that appeared.
We sent, of the six copies of the application with photographs, five to
Mr. PREYER. So that this was a date stamped on the document in
Senor AZCUE. I believe that that is so, because if we received the
reapplication on 27th, we never hold on to or retain, in order to protect the
interest of the applicant, the document for such a long period of time before
forwarding it to
Mr. PREYER. So it does not indicate that Lee Harvey Oswald was in
Senor AZCUE. No; in no manner. He never returned to the consulate. We
never saw him again. This date is completely independent of Mr. Oswald. This is
an internal matter.
Mr. PREYER. Looking again at this document, the visa application form,
doesn't it indicate on this form how long Oswald wanted to stay in
Senor AZCUE. Here it should be stated. Sometimes we included it, 2 weeks,
and, if possible, a longer period of time.
Mr. PREYER. Does it also indicate when Oswald wanted to leave for
Senor AZCUE. Proposed date of arrival in
Mr. PREYER. That was just 3 days after he applied for the visa, and I
believe you have testified earlier today that you had never seen anyone so
persistent in seeking a visa.
Did Oswald tell you why he was in such a hurry to get to
Senor AZCUE. None whatsoever. He arrived there convinced that with the
documents that he exhibited at the time, I would issue the visa
immediately, and one can analyze the fact that if he had a great need to
go to the Soviet Union, he would have chosen the shortest route, and that was
not through Cuba.
Mr. PREYER. But he gave you no explanation of why he was in such a hurry,
why he was so anxious to go to
Senor AZCUE. I do not recall it, and it is hard to find a reasonable
explanation, because if he is in a hurry, he can go through any other country.
Mr. PREYER. Down in the right-hand corner of the visa application there
is a signature.
Is that your signature?
142
Mr. PREYER. Is it Sylvia Duran's signature?
Senor AZCUE. It is a signature, and we have been able to check it
thereafter, of Alfredo Mirabal, who, as I have already mentioned earlier, he
already was empowered as a consul. He had already been named or appointed
consul.
Mr. PREYER. So it is Mr. Mirabal's signature.
Just above that signature there is a section, a printed section, that has
the title "Observations."
Now you have testified, in general, as to what those observations were,
but I wonder if you could read out loud for us, for the sake of the record, what
that section says.
Senor AZCUE. The applicant states that he is a member of the
He went to the Soviet Embassy in this city requesting that his visa be
forwarded to their embassy in
This is the very same thing I told the members of your committee in
Mr. PREYER. This section of the application was not filled in by you?
Senor AZCUE. No, no, I had never seen it. This was made or prepared by
Sylvia Duran, and it was signed by Mirabal, as it appears here. I repeat once
again that the first time I saw this document was when the committee showed it
to me in April.
Mr. PREYER. Is there anything in those observations that would make you
think that the person who wrote them believed that Oswald would be given a visa?
Senor AZCUE. Probably no, this is something that is written or addressed
to
Mr. PREYER. Incidentally, to clear up one point on that, I believe you
testified this morning that you initiated the call to the Soviet Embassy.
No, I'm afraid I have that just reversed. I believe this morning you
testified that it was the Soviet Embassy that called you, but in the
observations it states you initiated the call to the Soviet Embassy.
Would you like to clarify that point?
Senor AZCUE. It is relatively easy, I believe, if one analyzes it.
Conceivably, I was under the impression that the Soviet Embassy had called me
because I was told to pick up the telephone. I did not call. It is possible,
however, that at Oswald's request, Sylvia might have called the Embassy and then
would have transferred the call to me, and thereafter I was under the impression
that it was the Soviet Embassy that had called me, and I was always under that
143
Mr. PREYER. One final question.
Going back to the observations written on the bottom of the application,
written by Sylvia Duran, in your opinion, did Sylvia Duran ever pressure you to
grant the visa or encourage you to grant the visa to Oswald?
Senor AZCUE. She, the poor woman, was in no position to pressure me. She
might have been in a position to make a personal recommendation, and the
recommendation was not a personal matter.
Yet she might have believed that because of the
fact that he was a resident in the Soviet Union and he was a member of the North
American Communist Party, she might have believed that we might have been
in a position to make an exception, but this is simply as a comment, a possible
comment. She did not exert pressure or any such thing.
Mr. PREYER. Did she make any personal recommendation or did she evidence
any unusual interest in Oswald's case?
Senor AZCUE. No; she might have thought that we might be in a position to
grant him a visa because of his personal conditions or circumstances, not for
any reason of friendship. It wasn't any such thing. She never spoke again about
him, nor did we ever speak about him. As in the case of many of the hundreds of
applicants who come through a consulate, we see them at that time, and
thereafter we never remember them again or discuss them again. And if it hadn't
been for the unfortunate incident, I would have by now completely forgotten
about this gentleman.
Mr. PREYER. After Oswald visited you the first time, that visit ended
when you sent him out to have a photograph taken, as I understand it.
Was there a place nearby where he could have had the photograph taken?
Senor AZCUE. Yes, yes, about four or five blocks away in a street known
as Calzada de Tacubaya. There are photographic studios. Possibly Sylvia might
have pointed out to him where he could obtain the photographs, or maybe he
already had the photos.
Mr. PREYER. Well, in the photographs on the application, and also in the
passport, Oswald appears to have on a tie and a sweater. How was he dressed when
he came to the Embassy, to the consulate?
Senor AZCUE. I always imagine him or visualize him as wearing a suit,
coat and pants, trousers, with a pattern of crossed lines, not very clear
design. Blue, some reddish. I never conceived of him or visualized him wearing a
light sweater.
When I saw this photograph in April of this year, I also noticed that the
clothing he was wearing was not the same.
Mr. PREYER. So that the clothing he was wearing in the photographs was
not similar to that which he was wearing when he actually visited you in the
Embassy.
Senor AZCUE. I am almost in a position to assure that.
Mr. PREYER. When he returned with the photographs and with his
application, visa application form, and his passport pictures,
144
Senor AZCUE. No, I did not see the photograph, nor did I witness the
preparation of the form. I did not see the photograph at that time. I only saw
this photograph last April, when they came to
Mr. PREYER. So that at the time of processing his visa and the passport,
you never looked at the photographs, you never compared them with the man
standing before you.
Senor AZCUE. No, I was never present during the preparation of this form
nor of the affixing of the photograph. And it is also signed by Mirabal. And in
the normal course of business this is a matter that goes to
Mr. PREYER. You have indicated to us that you
don't believe the man whose photograph appears on the visa application and the
passport was the same man who appeared before you in the consulate. Have you
ever seen a photograph of the man you believed to have appeared before you in
the consulate?
Senor AZCUE. Never. I shall explain. The committee brought to me an album
with many photographs. I shall try to explain. It is very possible that amongst
all of those photographs which were made available to us by those persons who
took pictures of every person that went near the consulate or the Embassy and
that were contained in those that I was shown, it is very difficult when I
consider all of the photos that I saw, that anyone could escape being
photographed if he approached the consulate during working hours, that is,
escape without having his photograph taken.
It would be easy for them, having at hand the photographs and the dates,
to facilitate or make available the photograph of the person who went to the
consulate, be it the decedent or the dead man or the other person that I think I
saw went to the consulate.
It is indeed curious that they did not provide that photograph, because
if it were the same man, you would have recognized him in that photograph. And
if I remembered the face, I would have recognized it amongst those photos. And
there was no photo of either.
This is very curious, that something like that should happen, especially
among individuals or men who are so efficient and who spied on our consulate and
our Embassy.
Mr. PREYER. I would like to ask if we could have exhibit 437 displayed.
Mr. Azcue, I will ask if that is a picture of you in
Senor AZCUE. Right. That is a photograph of myself with the photo album
that you provided me.
Mr. PREYER. And I believe you recognized none of the photographs in that
album as being the man whom you feel you saw in the Embassy. Have you ever seen
that man again, the man who you believe you saw in the consulate?
Senor AZCUE. No, never. This is what I stated before.
Mr. PREYER. I believe you said that the man who signed the visa
application did not sign it in your presence, as far as you recall.
145
Mr. PREYER. If analysis of that handwriting, of that signature on the
visa application showed it to be Lee Harvey Oswald's signature, would you still
believe that the man who visited you in the consulate was not Oswald?
Senor AZCUE. Under such circumstances I would have to accept that I was
being influenced or that I was seeing visions.
Mr. PREYER. Mr. Chairman, I am at a point now at which there are two
other areas that I wanted to ask Mr. Azcue some questions. It will probably take
about 15 minutes. Would you prefer to go forward or to recess until after lunch
at this time?
First, Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask that JFK exhibit F-437 be
admitted into evidence at this point.
Chairman STOKES. Without objection, it may be entered into the record at
this point.
[The information follows:]
146
I request at this time that all persons remain in their seats until the
witness has been escorted from the hearing room, after which we will declare a
recess.
[Whereupon, at 12:45 p.m., a recess was taken until 2 p.m.]
147
Chairman STOKES. The committee will come to order.
All persons in the hearing room are requested to take their seats and to
remain seated while the witness is being brought into the room and to the
witness table. Thereafter you may move about if you please, but then once again,
whenever the witness departs the room, you are also further requested to remain
in your seats for security purposes.
You may bring the witness in.
The Chair at this time recognizes the gentleman from
I would like to ask that JFK exhibit F-428 be placed on the easel,
please.
Do we have JFK exhibit F-428?
In the earlier testimony that was read to the committee today from Sylvia
Duran, mention was made of a newspaper article by a reporter named Comer Clark
which appeared in an american paper. This is a copy of that article.
I would like to read you about the first five or six paragraphs of that
article, Mr. Azcue, and get your comments upon it.
I would suggest to the translator that I might read by sections of it and
give you a copy of the article and you can translate it directly, in the
interest of time.
The article reads in the first paragraph, it begins in quotation marks:
"Yes, I heard of Lee Harvey Oswald's plan to kill President Kennedy.
It's possible that I could have saved him.
"I
might have been able to--but I didn't. I never believed the plan would be put
into effect."
These were the dramatic words spoken to me by
"Lee Oswald came to the Cuban Embassy in Mexico City twice,"
Castro went on.
The first time--I was told--he wanted to work for us.
"He was asked to explain, but he wouldn't. "He wouldn't go into
details.
"The second time he said he wanted to 'free
"Then he said something like: 'Someone ought to shoot that President
Kennedy.'
"Then Oswald said--and this was exactly how it was reported to
me--'Maybe I'll try to do it.'
"This was less than 2 months before the U.S President was
assassinated."
Mr. Azcue, would you comment on that statement?
Senor AZCUE. I have already commented to you, in the course of previous
conversations, that Mr. Oswald did not see nor could he have seen, either at the
consulate or the Embassy, any persons or individuals other than we. He did not
have any contact other than contact with us, consul Mirabal, I as consul, and
Sylvia Duran as a secretary. He did not mention any such thing to any of us, and
much less would we have passed this information on to Fidel.
So I see no way in which our Commander in Chief could have been aware of
a conversation that Oswald says he held with one of our agents. The only agents
present were those three I have mentioned-the two consuls and the secretary.
148
What would become of us should we have intervened? This is ridiculous
that we should attempt to walk into the mouth of the lion, and this has been
repeatedly asserted by our Commander in Chief. We have never used terrorism. We
have never supported terrorism, and we have never even supported terrorism even
in those cases in which we sympathize with the views of those who did practice
it.
Mr. PREYER. So that the man who appeared before you in the consulate did
not say these words as set out in the article, nor anything that sounded like
those words.
Senor AZCUE. I repeat once again that I would not have tolerated it
because I would have taken this as a provocation, and our behavior in this
context is extraordinarily clear and clean.
Mr. PREYER. Moving to another area, Mr. Azcue, Sylvia Duran and her
husband often entertained, I believe, in
Did you socialize with the Durans from time to time? Did you attend their
parties?
Senor AZCUE. Yes; in
Mr. PREYER. Do you know if they had any parties in September of 1963;
that is, the time when Lee Harvey Oswald was in
Senor AZCUE. It is possible, but it is difficult that they would have
held such a party without inviting me, a person that was so close to them. And I
recall that the last gathering that I attended at the Duran home was one that
was carried out in order to bid me farewell in preparation for my return to
Cuba, and it was during the month of November, a few days before my departure
from Mexico.
Mr. PREYER. Do you know Elena Garro de Paz?
Senor AZCUE. Yes. I have seen her on some occasions in the home of one of
her sisters, whose husband is a Mexican painter, Horacio, whose name is Guerrero
Galvan, and who was a friend of mine.
Mr. PREYER. I believe her husband is Octavio Paz, the Mexican poet?
Senor AZCUE. Yes, Octavio Paz, who was also Mexican Ambassador to Paris
and a distinguished poet, was her husband at the time I met her.
Mr. PREYER. Elena Garro de Paz was a friend of the Durans and also a
friend of yours, I believe; is that correct?
Senor Azcue. That is correct; yes. She was related to Horacio Duran.
Mr. PREYER. And did I understand you to say that the painter, Guerrero
Galvan--is that the way you pronounce that?--was a
149
Senor AZCUE. Exactly.
Mr. PREYER. Perhaps I should get the blackboard out and draw some lines
to spell out the family tree there.
But let me just sum up by asking: You knew Elena Garro de Paz fairly
well?
Senor AZCUE. Not very well. I have met her on two, maybe three
opportunities because she was living at that time in her sister's home, the home
of Mrs. Guerrero Galvan, the home that I used to visit with a certain frequency,
but we were not intimate friends. It was simply a social acquaintance.
Mr. PREYER. Would you describe her as an emotionally stable person?
Senor AZCUE. She appeared to me to be a delicate person, a refined
person, a cultured writer.
Mr. PREYER. Did she have what we might call a vivid imagination about
things other than her writing?
Senor AZCUE. I believe it is very difficult in the course of two or three
visits to be able to fully understand the character of a lady without being a
close or intimate friend, and her writings I have only read from the standpoint
of literary criticism or review. I would not attempt to make a critical
evaluation of her personality or character because I am not a psychologist.
Mr. PREYER. Let me put it this way. If she told you a story about
something that had happened, would you be apt to believe her?
Senor AZCUE. It would depend on the kind of story she would be telling
me.
Mr. PREYER. If she told you something of a serious nature, would you be
apt, likely to believe that she would be telling the truth about it?
Senor AZCUE. I repeat once again that it will depend on the subject
matter. It depends on the issue itself, not who is telling the story. If it has
some viability or credibility, I would accept it. If not, I would not.
Mr. PREYER. Did you ever hear that Lee Harvey Oswald had attended one of
the Durans' parties when he was in
Senor AZCUE. No, never, and that is one of the things I would not
believe, no matter who would tell me, because I knew the Durans well, and I knew
that this gentleman, I know that this gentleman who turned up at the consulate
to request a visa had no other activities or purpose while there. He came to the
consulate and thereafter we never talked about him or saw him any other time.
And I repeat once again that I wouldn't believe that either Sylvia or Horacio
would host a gathering during those days without inviting me.
Mr. PREYER. Did you know a man named Emilio Carbellido, a Mexican writer,
I believe?
Senor AZCUE. Yes, of course, very well known in
Mr. PREYER. Did you ever discuss President Kennedy with Mr. Carbellido?
150
Mr. PREYER. Would Mr. Carbellido have been at the parties or some of the
parties that the Durans gave from time to time?
Senor AZCUE. It is possible. I do not recall his presence at any specific
one, but it is possible that he might have attended.
Mr. PREYER. I have asked you some questions earlier, Mr. Azcue, about
Miss Elena Garro de Paz, and as to whether you would be likely to believe a
story if she told it to you.
Miss Garro has told us that on one occasion she was at a
party at one of the Durans' houses, and that you and Oswald were both at the
party. She has told us that at another party at one of the Durans' homes she
overheard a conversation in which you and Emilio Carbellido were discussing
President Kennedy. She says that at the conclusion of that conversation, you
stated that there was no alternative than to kill President Kennedy. Would you
care to comment on her allegations?
Senor AZCUE. Yes; first, because it is not possible or conceivable in my
own mind to kill anyone, much less so the President of the United States, and
much more so because of the possible implications or effects upon our own
revolution, which I would defend with every effort that I could muster. It would
be necessary to ask this lady why she makes such statements; it is incredible.
Because, I repeat, I have seen her only two or three times in my whole life, and
much earlier than the time when this gentleman showed up at our consulate. With
some analysis, I could probably even determine the date of these meetings with
her. And I know that the last time I saw her was much before Mirabal arrived at
the consulate, and Mirabal arrived on September 2. I can almost fix the date.
The previous secretary, the one who preceded Sylvia Duran, was a relative
of mine who died on July 19. And I clearly recall that the son of Guerrero
Galvan, the painter, who was a student of medicine, was discussing with me the
unfortunate death of my secretary, who was, in turn, my relative, as a result of
a car accident in a Volkswagen, and he was explaining to me how dangerous it was
to be in an accident in a Volkswagen because of the shortness of the car and the
proximity of the riders to the windshield, and it was a date so close to July 19
that he was telling me that, during that same period, those same days, there had
been three fatal accidents similar to the one in which my secretary had died,
and that was the last opportunity on which I saw Elena Garro.
What did they offer Elena Garro to make such absurd statements or
declarations?
Mr. PREYER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have no further questions at this
time.
Chairman STOKES. The time of the gentleman has expired.
The Chair now recognizes the gentleman from
Mr. DODD. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
*************************************************************************************************
Page
151
151
Senor AZCUE. Glad to meet you, sir.
Mr. DODD. I am not going to speak in Spanish. My Spanish isn't that good.
Could you please tell me, Mr. Azcue, how long you had been the consul in
Senor Azcue. When the revolution achieved its victory, I was appointed
consulate the beginning of January 1959. Thereafter they called upon me,
thereafter the Government of
Mr. DODD. Am I to understand, then, that you assumed the duties of consul
in 1960, some time early in 1960, the end of 1960? What period of time did you
assume those responsibilities?
Senor AZCUE. Yes, it was in April of 1961, after the
Mr. DODD. Now, did I understand your testimony correctly, that you were
not aware of how the photograph on the exhibit, the visa application, you are
not aware of how that photo got on that application?
In fact, you had not seen the photograph on the application?
Senor AZCUE. That is the case. Sylvia Duran was handling that area. She
typed in the form, affixed the photo, had the applicant sign the forms. In the
meantime there was no reason for us consuls to be present there observing the
procedure. We were simply in our private offices. We had a lot of work.
Mr. DODD. The reason I asked you that question, is that when several of
us had the opportunity to interview you in Cuba a few short months ago, on page
14 of our interview, which I hope you have a copy of, I was questioning you and
I asked you:
Going back to the physical appearance of Lee Harvey Oswald, apart from
having a receding hairline, was there any gray in Lee Harvey Oswald's hair?
You responded:
You know he had blond hair. It is all very interesting. You see this
picture, I really did not study carefully. The picture was taken by the
secretary and she applied it to the application.
It would seem from your response to my question then that, one, you did
see the picture on the application or that you did not see the picture on the
application then, but were merely looking at it when it was in front of you, and
that you had very specific knowledge as to how the picture got on the
application, that in fact Sylvia Duran stapled it to the application.
Chairman STOKES. The time of the gentleman has expired.
The Chair will permit the witness to respond to the question.
Senor AZCUE. Yes; it is a matter of routine. She is the one who
handles all of these detailed operations. I could assure that she was the
one who did it without having seen her do it. There was no one,
152
Mr. DODD. All right, then.
May I ask unanimous consent, Mr. Chairman, just to proceed and finish
this line of questioning, which should take just a couple of minutes? I will try
to make my questions brief for the translations.
Chairman STOKES. Without objection, the gentleman may proceed.
Mr. DODD. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Based on the testimony you have given, if we are to believe your
testimony with regard to the description of the individual that you said you saw
that day, it would vary quite significantly, or significantly from the actual
photographs of Lee Harvey Oswald, the one on the visa application and the
photograph that you see to your left over here. They would be different than the
person that you saw in the Cuban Consulate, isn't that correct?
Senor AZCUE. For me, yes. When I saw in April the photograph placed on
the application, I was surprised by his looks or similarity with the Lee Harvey
Oswald who had been killed. This was my reaction in front of you. You were the
ones who showed me that picture. That was the first time that I saw that
application completed with the photos and all of the other information.
Mr. DODD. But what you saw was someone that was very different looking
from the person that you met in the Cuban Consulate in September of 1963?
Senor AZCUE. Yes, as different as I found him when I saw him in film. The
image I had of the individual who showed up at the consulate was the man in his
thirties, maybe 35 years old, and with the very thin face. You will recall that
he had very natural lines, very thin straight nose, except for all of the items
I mentioned, and this gentleman appeared to me to be much younger and with a
much fuller face. That is the evaluation I have with absolute certainty. It is
my truth.
Mr. DODD. My question is this, after having gone through that, I am left
with two choices that I perceive that caused this to occur, since according to
your testimony and the testimony of others, there were three people who were
working in the consul's section. There was Mr. Mirabal, there was yourself and
there was Sylvia Duran. It was either a terrible mistake on the part of Sylvia
Duran, who also saw this individual come into the office and who stapled this on
here, or there was complicity in placing the photograph on the application at
the time. If the two people were that different, then the only people who could
have been involved would have been people at the consulate.
Would you please help me out with that possible contradiction?
Senor AZCUE. Well, I am sure that it was not a case of complicity. It is
possibly a matter of what I see as the truth and what she sees as the truth, my
image of the individual present there, her image of the individual there, and
whether she carefully studied the photo. These types of photographs are not
necessarily that precise. They are not as
regular passport pictures which have to be very clear. And there is, of
course, one other possibility, and I cannot guarantee that this is the case, but
it is conceivable that
153
Mr. DODD. In effect suggesting that there was an enormous error.
Senor AZCUE. It is a mistake that results very often in the case of the
course of one's work, in the normal or ordinary case.
Mr. DODD. And that also, if I understood you, the third option being is
that you could be mistaken as to separating the identity of the two people.
Senor AZCUE. It is possible. We are all exposed to error or mistake. It
is not, however, my view. My view is that I am right. Now I have to say I am not
infallible.
Mr. DODD. I wasn't suggesting that.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate the additional amount of time.
Chairman STOKES. The time of the gentleman has expired. The gentleman
from
Mr. SAWYER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I am just curious. You had been in
Senor
AZCUE. 1944.
Mr. SAWYER. You were a Cuban by birth and had lived in
Senor AZCUE. Yes, many years.
Mr. SAWYER. Why had you spent so long a time in
Senor AZCUE. I first left
Mr. SAWYER. So then since about 1931, up until about 1959, you were what
you might say a political refugee, or political exile, in effect, from
Senor AZCUE. A voluntary exile. Nobody forced me not to live in my
country. I did not find it pleasant because of the political climate in my
country to live there.
Mr. SAWYER. Thank you. That is all I have, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. THONE. Mr. Chairman, I wonder if I could ask just one question in
line with the gentleman from Connecticut, Mr. Dodd, on which I am a
little confused.
Chairman STOKES. Certainly. The gentleman is recognized.
Mr. THONE. Consul Azcue, did I understand, and I may not have gotten it
right this morning, that when you went back to Cuba you saw a film which
depicted the shooting by a Mr. Ruby of Lee Harvey Oswald, and at the time you
were concerned that this wasn't the same person at all that was at the consul
applying for a visa?
154
Mr. THONE. Exactly. Now my question. Did you report this to the Cuban
Government, and if so to whom and what happened on your report in this regard?
Senor AZCUE. I reported this to some of my friends in the Ministry of
Foreign Affairs. But in fact, in truth I was aware of the fact that it was
testimony of my own, it was of my own imagination. And that the conditions under
which I had seen him in the film at the time he was killed, with distorted
features as a result of pain, it is conceivable that I might be mistaken.
I reaffirmed my view when Attorney Garrison of New Orleans stated that
the Oswald who visited or was at the consulate was not the one who allegedly
killed Kennedy, because of the date he departed New Orleans and the date he had
visited the consulate in Cuba. So that confirmed my own view, and at that point
I believed that as being the truth. And then I communicated this. And that was
probably filed, recorded.
I did not write a report. I made an oral report. But it would be
necessary to investigate whether such a report in writing exists or does not.
But that was the time when I saw my own views confirmed in my opinion
that there were two Oswalds. Garrison shares the same opinion.
Mr. THONE. Senor Azcue, I don't want to be too repetitious. But just a
quick followup question. Again, to whom in the Foreign Division, or Service,
down in
Senor AZCUE. These were colleagues of mine in the Ministry of Foreign
Affairs. But at that time all three of us were working in the National Council
for Culture. And it was Mr. Lechuga and Mr. Otero.
Mr. THONE. And when did you make that report?
Senor
AZCUE. Immediately after reading Garrison's statements in the newspaper.
Possibly at the end of 1964. That would be something very easy to check out. Or
maybe beginning of 1965.
Mr. THONE. Last this, and it is probably a question you cannot answer. Do
you know what action at all was taken within the Ministry of Foreign Affairs on
your report in this regard?
Senor
Azcue. Honestly, I do not know that.
Mr. THONE. Because this is quite a startling development here. You would
have thought that your government would have done something with the report from
the consul who supposedly had three confrontations with the man reported to be
Lee Harvey Oswald. And when you came up with this information that this was not
the same person that was down there, you would have thought something would have
happened. Just a comment. I don't know that it needs a response, Mr. Consul,
unless you would have a thought on it.
Senor AZCUE. Yes. It is very possible, it is a possibility that they did
not believe me at all, that they might have thought that this was simply my own
impression or evaluation. And moreover, that
155
Chairman STOKES. The time of the gentleman has expired. The gentleman
from
Mr. FORD. Mr. Chairman, I yield back my time to the Chair.
Chairman STOKES. The time of the gentleman has expired. The gentleman
from Indiana, Mr. Fithian.
Mr. FITHIAN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Azcue, you testified that Oswald produced a document showing his
membership in the
Senor AZCUE. I did not concentrate much of my attention on the documents
themselves. And I could not see whether they were authentic or not. The person
who saw them, or the person who made the notations might have been Sylvia. But
she had no way of telling whether they were authentic or not, any of the
documents. That is the reason that he addresses himself to the Soviet Embassy,
so that they in turn could tell us whether the Soviet documents are or are not
valid.
Mr. FITHIAN. Thank you. At your consulate, whose responsibility was it to
compare the applicant in person with the picture on the application, or the
picture offered to be put on the application, to assure that the photo was
indeed the photo of the person applying for a visa?
Senor AZCUE. The first one that should have checked that out was Sylvia.
And I feel that we also should have checked. But fatally I did not make the
comparison or that check. I had not seen that photograph until April of the
present year.
Mr. FITHIAN. May I direct a question to counsel, Mr. Cornwell. Would the
passport, the application that we have on the display board, would we have
gotten that from
Mr. CORNWELL. The passport and the passport application came from
Mr. FITHIAN. I am talking about the visa application that was submitted
to the Cuban consulate in
Mr. CORNWELL. Two visa applications; No. 408 is the one on the right,
that is a photograph of an original visa application which was provided to us
for inspection during our trip to
Mr. FITHIAN. My question, Mr. Cornwell, goes to the stamping of October
10 on it. Obviously if it were from the Cuban consulate at
Mr. CORNWELL. I don't believe there is testimony solving that issue yet.
The only testimony I believe we have had is with respect to the exhibit 408, and
as I recall, Senor Azcue provided information about his understanding of the
date October 10 on that document. He was not asked why there was no similar date
on document 407, to my memory.
156
Senor AZCUE. He did not provide any information on his own
background other than the presentation of the documentation that he had brought
forth in connection with his application. It was clear, and I was able to check
out from the first time, that his only intent was to obtain a visa immediately.
Therefore his background, especially his nonrevolutionary background, was of a
nature that he had no interest at all in communicating to us.
He was interested in telling me that he was a member of the Communist
Party, that he was a resident of the
He did not speak a single word outside of that issue.
Chairman STOKES. The time of the gentleman has expired.
Does counsel have anything further? Excuse me. The gentleman from
Mr. DODD. Mr. Chairman, I would just like to pursue one other line of
questioning, if I may, and I will try and be brief on it.
Could you tell me, Mr. Azcue, what the Cuban surveillance of the Cuban
consulate in
Senor AZCUE. We were very young, maybe trusting. We did not have great
experience. And we had great trust in our neighbors. At first we did not
mistrust anyone. Intuitively we might have had certain reasons to be concerned
or to fear certain individuals, but we did not take any photographs, nor did we
have any mechanisms or systems. We simply took measures to protect ourselves
from some possible aggression or aggressive act. But it was a result of our own
action. And with some small security protection or guard that the Mexican
Government provided outside the premises, and our own colleagues within the
Embassy, who might be able to react to outside aggression, but with nothing much
other than their own physical ability to do so, with their bodies.
Mr. DODD. As I understood your testimony, you were in
Senor AZCUE. I left on the 18th.
Mr. DODD. I presume Once it became--once the knowledge was acquired
in
157
Chairman STOKES. The time of the gentleman has again expired. The Chair
will permit the witness to answer the question.
Senor AZCUE. Immediately, as soon as I saw the name, I communicated it,
or got in touch myself with the Foreign Ministry, and after a quick interview
with the Minister and with the Chief of the Bureau, I was immediately sent to
the person responsible for such matters in the Interior Ministry, and that was
Commandante Pineiro. Naturally this event constituted a great commotion for us
because we feared that we might be involved in that dirty business.
At that time the Commander in Chief, in his speech of November 27, he is
already informed in advance of all those points on which I had personally
reported, reported to Commander Pineiro of the Ministry of the Interior.
Therefore it is in that speech that Fidel comments or reflects and states what 1
have always stated.
Mr. DODD. Did you make any effort or are you aware of any effort that was
made to also talk to either Sylvia Duran, Mr. Mirabal, anyone else that could
possibly shed any light as to what actually happened in the consulate in Mexico,
other than talking to yourself?
Senor AZCUE. Our colleague, Sylvia Duran, was arrested by the Mexican
Government in order to obtain from her clarification or other types of
statements from her.
Regarding other possible investigations on the part of the Cuban
Government, I am not aware of them, because I am not an intelligence agent of
the Cuban Government. I provide the information I hold so that it might be
processed or acted on.
Mr. DODD. So am I to understand that you gave oral testimony, there was
no written statement, there was no tape recording or any stenographer that took
your statement at the time?
Senor AZCUE. No. Commander Pineiro and I were alone in his office. But a
few days thereafter I heard the speech of Fidel and I realized that the
Commander in Chief was fully informed of all points. So the precise report
summarized in brief form is incorporated in the speech of Prime Minister Castro.
All of the information is contained therein, and consequently printed in the
press and televised and transmitted through radio.
Mr. DODD. Mr. Chairman, I just want to ask whether or not we as a
committee have asked the Cuban Government for any and all documentation which
they may have prepared or have at their disposal as a result of their
investigation of this particular aspect of the case at the time that they became
aware of Lee Harvey Oswald's visa application in Mexico. Have we made that
request, and, if so, have we had a response?
Mr. BLAKEY. Mr. Dodd, we have indeed asked the Cuban Government to
provide us with any written reports filed at that time by either Mr. Azcue or
any of the people with whom he dealt. And they have informed us that this was
handled orally; that no written reports were made at that time.
158
Chairman STOKES. The time of the gentleman has expired.
Mr. Azcue, at the conclusion of a witness' testimony before this
committee, the witness is entitled, under the rules of this committee, and of
the House, to have extended to him 5 minutes in which he may comment upon the
testimony he has given before our committee, and I would extend to you 5 minutes
for that purpose at this time, if you so desire.
Senor AZCUE. Thank you very much. I will use the 5 minutes or possibly
less.
First, I want to thank you for the good reception that we have had in
this visit here during our trip, for all attentions extended. It has been more
than we could have expected. And at the same time I want to state or express
that it is in our greatest interest that this entire issue be clarified to the
utmost, and that we have always cooperated, and that you must have been able to
note it as a result of statements made by our own Prime Minister reflecting our
sincere cooperation, without holding back any information, an attitude which we
have consistently maintained.
We have the greatest interest in seeing that the issue is clarified,
possibly an interest equaling your own interest in having it clarified.
At any and all times we are available to you and at your disposition
within the context of our possibilities.
We have always played with clean decks, with clean cards, as has always
been our custom.
Once again, thank you very much.
Chairman STOKES. Mr. Azcue, I want to also say to you it is nice to see
you again. We enjoyed the visit we had with you in
So on behalf of the committee and the House of Representatives, we thank
you for the cooperation you have given this committee. You are now excused.
Senor AZCUE. [in English]. You are welcome, Mr. Stokes. Can I go?
Chairman STOKES. Yes, you may go. All persons are requested to remain in
their seats until the witness has departed from the hearing room.
Mr. STANDARD. Mr. Chairman, if I may, for a moment.
Chairman STOKES. Yes, counsel.
Mr. STANDARD. The witness has made reference today to two speeches of
Prime Minister Fidel Castro of November 23 and November 27, 1963, and I ask they
be incorporated as part of this record.
Chairman STOKES. Without objection, your request is granted. JFK exhibit
F-684 may be entered into the record at this point. [The exhibit follows:]
159
160
161
162
163
164
165
166
167
168
169
170
171
172
Chairman STOKES. You may proceed.
Mr. STANDARD. Congressman Thone addressed himself to what in fact
happened to the discussion which Senior Azcue had, and I would refer him to what
I believe is part of the interviews of your committee and your staff with Mr.
Otero, which is not yet part of this record as far as I know; and second to the
transcription of the 4-hour interview with President Castro, which I understand
will be made part of this record by reference when the witnesses have completed
their testimony.
Chairman STOKES. That is correct. The full transcript of the statement
with President Castro will be made and incorporated into the entire record.
Mr. STANDARD. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman STOKES. Thank you, counsel. At this time, Mr. Azcue, you are
excused. All persons are requested to remain in their seats while the witness
leaves the room.
Mr. STANDARD. Mr. Chairman, the witness would like to remain in the room;
if I could provide a chair for him, I would.
Chairman STOKES. Professor Blakey.
Mr. BLAKEY. Mr. Chairman, in light of the questions raised as to the
identity of the man who visited the Cuban consulate, that is whether or not he
was Lee Harvey Oswald, the committee decided to test by handwriting analysis the
authenticity of the signature on the visa application. The committee was advised
by the Cuban Government that the visa applications had to be typed in duplicate
and that the applicant had to sign both copies.
In 1964, one of the forms allegedly signed by Mr. Oswald was turned over
to the
In 1978 the committee obtained the second copy, which has been
incorporated in the record, in
Consequently, there are two checks to be made in a handwriting analysis
of this question, one, to determine that both visa application forms were signed
by the same person, and two, to determine if possible whether the signatures
were in fact or are in fact identical with the other writings attributable to
Lee Harvey Oswald.
For the purposes of verification, the committee asked its handwriting
experts to compare the signatures on the two forms which are part of the record
with two other writings. Those other writings were the signature on Oswald's
fingerprint card at the time of his arrest in
Mr. Chairman, the committee's panel of handwriting experts have in fact
made that analysis, and a representative of it will be with the committee on
Monday to report in full on those findings.
In essence, however, it is that Lee Harvey Oswald signed both of the visa
applications.
That representative of the handwriting panel will be Mr. Joseph P.
McNally. The committee will recall that Mr. McNally has already testified before
the committee and will be available again on Monday to be fully cross-examined
on this and several other issues that have arisen in the handwriting area.
173
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
At this time, Mr. Chairman, it would be appropriate to note that another
member of the Cuban consulate staff who was present when Oswald allegedly
applied for a visa was Senor Alfredo Mirabal Diaz. Senor Mirabal succeeded Senor
Azcue as Cuban consul in
It would be appropriate at this time, Mr. Chairman, to call Senor Mirabal.
Chairman STOKES. Will the witness please stand. Raise your right hand and
be sworn.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give before this committee
is the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God.
[The testimony of Senor Mirabal was given through the interpreter.]
Senor MIRABAL. I do.
Chairman STOKES. Thank you. You may be seated.
Page
173
TESTIMONY
OF SENOR ALFREDO MIRABAL DIAZ, ACCOMPANIED BY MR. HERVAS, INTERPRETER FROM THE
STATE DEPARTMENT
Chairman STOKES. The Chair recognizes counsel, Michael Goldsmith.
Mr. GOLDSMITH. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Mirabal, when did you assume your position as Cuban consul in
Senor MIRABAL. September 2, 1963.
Mr. GOLDSMITH. How long had you worked in that capacity?
Senor MIRABAL. Eleven months.
Mr. GOLDSMITH. What hours of the day was the Cuban consulate open to the
public?
Senor MIRABAL. Ten in the morning to two in the afternoon.
Mr. GOLDSMITH. And what days of the week were these hours observed?
Senor MIRABAL. Monday through Friday.
Mr. GOLDSMITH. Was the consulate open to the public on Saturdays and
Sundays?
Senor MIRABAL. No.
Mr. GOLDSMITH. Mr. Mirabal, while you were Cuban consul in Mexico City,
did you ever see Lee Harvey Oswald?
Senor MIRABAL. Twice, on two occasions, when he was at the consulate
processing his visa application.
Mr. GOLDSMITH. Did anything unusual happen when Oswald was applying for
his visa?
Senor MIRABAL. Yes; since he first came for the visa, I must note that I
do not know English, and therefore it was my colleague Azcue who took care of
him, though he had in fact concluded his responsibilities in the position. When
I arrived, he stayed on to help me out and he, together with the secretary, took
care of this visitor.
From inside my private office I could hear loud voices, and I came out of
my office several times to see what was happening in the area where the
secretary worked. I asked my colleague, Azcue, who was taking care of the
visitor, I did not know who the visitor was. But my colleague Azcue told me that
the visitor was in need
Page
174
174
of
an urgent visa, that he was in a great hurry to travel to
Mr. GOLDSMITH. Did Mr. Oswald get involved in arguments with Mr. Azcue on
both occasions that he, Oswald, visited the consulate?
Senor MIRABAL Yes; on both occasions there were discussions or arguments
to such an extent that from the very first moment it appeared to me as if this
instance could be a case of a provocation. I sensed that there was an intent to
create some kind of a scandal, of a disturbance. That was my feeling.
The second time the same thing happened.
Mr. GOLDSMITH. Approximately how long did these arguments last?
Senor MIRABAL. Today I could not be exact or precise; 15 years have gone
by since then. Some time, 15, 20 minutes.
Mr. GOLDSMITH. And you had occasion to see Mr. Oswald on both of these
occasions?
Senor MIRABAL. Yes. I had an opportunity to see him. But it was from my
private office where I stuck my head over and had a look at him from that
vantage point.
Mr. GOLDSMITH. How far away from you was Mr. Oswald during
these two visits?
Senor MIRABAL. About 4 meters away.
Mr. GOLDSMITH. Do you recall when Mr. Oswald made his visits to the Cuban
consulate?
Senor MIRABAL. It was at the beginning or shortly after my arrival.
Mr. GOLDSMITH. At this time, Mr. Mirabal, I would like to refer your
attention to what has been marked as JFK exhibit F-408. That is the second
exhibit from the right. And I believe you have just been handed a copy of that
exhibit.
Mr. Mirabal, does the date on that application refresh your memory as to
when Oswald visited the Embassy?
Senor MIRABAL. Yes; it is close to the date of my arrival. Yes, in
addition the visa applications are filled in at the very time that they are
being requested, and this would be on the second occasion.
Mr. GOLDSMITH. Mr. Mirabal, please look at the picture that appears in
that application. Is the person whose picture appears in this visa application
the same Lee Harvey Oswald who visited the Cuban consulate requesting a visa?
Senor MIRABAL. I really did not observe him with any great deal of
interest. He for me was one of many who visited the consulate. The image that I
have of him, I believe that the answer is yes, that he is the same person.
Mr. GOLDSMITH. Mr. Mirabal, after the assassination of President Kennedy,
was there ever any discussion at the Cuban consulate or Embassy concerning
whether the Oswald arrested in Dallas was actually the same person identified as
Oswald who visited your consulate requesting a visa in September 1963?
Senor MIRABAL. Yes; on the day following the assassination it is my own
secretary that communicates this information to me in the morning when I arrive
at the consulate. At that point, she advises
Page
175
175
me
of the fact that the assassination has occurred. Later, and I cannot recall
exactly how late or how soon thereafter, she communicates to me the fact that
the alleged assassin is the same person that came to the consulate.
Mr. GOLDSMITH. Mr. Mirabal, at this time I would like to read to you a
quotation from Comer
"Lee
Oswald came to the Cuban embassy in Mexico City twice," Castro went on.
"The first time--I was told--he wanted to work for us.
"He
was asked to explain, but he wouldn't.
"He
wouldn't go into details.
"The
second time he said he wanted to 'free
"Then he said something like: 'Someone ought to shoot that President
Kennedy.'
"Then Oswald said--and this was exactly how it was reported to me---
'Maybe I'll try to do it.'
Mr. Mirabal, do you recall Mr. Oswald making the remarks that are
allegedly attributed to him?
Senor MIRABAL. I feel that what has just been read is totally absurd, it
is incredible. In addition, it is completely false, it is a lie, and it is
impossible to imagine that that has been stated.
Mr. GOLDSMITH. Thank you very much, Mr. Mirabal. I have no further
questions at this time.
Chairman STOKES. Does any member seek recognition?
Mr. DODD.
Mr. Chairman.
Chairman STOKES. The gentleman from
Mr. DODD. Mr. Mirabal, let me just follow up the one line of questioning
I had for Mr. Azcue, and that is with regard to how the photo on the visa
application got there.
Can you enlighten us at all as to how that photograph got on the
application, what either the normal operating procedures were or if there were
any unique operating procedures in this case which would explain how that
photograph ended up on that visa application?
Senor MIRABAL. The entire matter of the processing of the paper work
relating to the application was entrusted to the secretary. I did not
participate in any manner. She was most efficient, and we trusted her in this
task.
Mr. DODD. In other words, you never saw the visa application when it was
in the consulate in
Senor MIRABAL. Yes, I did. In fact, there is a footnote with a series of
remarks or a remark or observation that I included or I made.
Mr. DODD. Do you recall that photograph as the photograph of the man that
you saw, granted not all that clearly, during the 30 minutes or so, the total
period of time that he was in your office back in September of 1963?
Senor MIRABAL. I know that this was the photograph that was affixed to
the request of the application, but at no point did I verify whether this
photograph was in fact that of the person who submitted the application, because
this was not a matter that I took care of. It was the secretary who was
responsible for this, and when she brought these documents to me, I assumed that
everything was in order.
Mr. DODD. Fine. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Page
176
176
Chairman STOKES. The gentleman from
Mr. SAWYER. Yes, I just have one question.
You stated that the statement attributed to President Castro as to the
statements made in the consulate by Lee Harvey Oswald were not correct and were
a lie or something to that effect.
At that time, I understood you could not speak English and did not
understand English; is that correct?
Senor MIRABAL. Yes, it is true. I did not speak English at that time.
However, my colleague, Senor Azcue, and the secretary would, without any doubt,
have informed me if he had stated anything of such a nature. I have complete
trust in my colleague, Azcue, and in the secretary, and obviously because of the
unusual and extremely alarming nature of any observations or statements of that
kind, I feel sure that they would have advised me had they heard them.
Mr. SAWYER. I just wanted the record to be clear that you are repeating
what the other two told you rather than stating an observation as to what he
said yourself. You are nodding your head yes.
Senor MIRABAL. Yes; I don't understand English. Even if I heard it in
English, I wouldn't have understood it--yes, it was my colleague, Azcue, and the
secretary who took care of the application submitted by Lee Harvey Oswald. It
was also them who provided me with all of the information that enabled me to add
the observation contained in that footnote to the effect that he was requesting
at the same time a visa to go to the
In fact, I noticed that he presented a card or credentials as belonging
to the Communist Party of the
I must say that I also have been a Communist for a number of years and
that generally we do not use credentials or a card to identify ourselves as
members of the party. Rather, we are identified to ourselves as Communists by
our own behavior and by our own ideas. I was surprised by his unusual interest
in using identification as a Communist.
I would think it would be interesting to know how he obtained the card.
It did have his name, and it did coincide with the same name that appeared in
the other document. And, as I indicated, it was my colleague, Azcue, who brought
all these documents and all this information to my desk for my report. It is
then that I talked with the Soviet consul, and when I mentioned this to him, he
told me that Oswald had in fact requested a visa for the Soviet Union but that
he had been told that it would take about 4 months to obtain a response, and
that is the reason that I included that information in the footnote that was to
be sent to Havana.
Mr. SAWYER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman STOKES. The time of the gentleman has expired.
Mr. Mirabal, was it standard operating procedure for an applicant to
affix his signature to the application in the presence of a consulate official?
Senor MIRABAL. That was normal. And it was always applied in that manner.
Page
177
177
Chairman STOKES. Were there ever any occasions when an application form
would be signed in blank?
Senor MIRABAL. During the 11 months that I was there, that was never
done.
Chairman STOKES. And under the procedure as you knew it, were applicants
ever permitted to take the application forms out of the consular office?
Senor MIRABAL. To my knowledge, no. The ministry did not allow that to be
done. I could not authorize it, and as far as I know, it was never done.
Chairman STOKES. Thank you, Mr. Mirabal. Is there anything further?
The gentleman from
Mr. FORD. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Could I get Mr. Mirabal to describe Mr. Oswald's demeanor, please?
Senor MIRABAL. What I recall, and this, of course, is not only an image
that time has eroded, but also I looked at him without concentrating great
attention on him. At that time his appearance was not a cause of concern, but
rather the events that were taking place at that time, the loud conversation, et
cetera.
As I recall him, he was a rather small man, medium height or somewhat
less, narrow shoulders. I believe he was wearing a coat, short hair. I do not
recall him having a moustache. He did have a serious expression on his face. He
appeared hard or tough, someone who is upset or unhappy.
That is the image that I retain of him.
Chairman STOKES. The time of the gentleman has expired. Is there anyone
else seeking recognition?
Mr. Mirabal, at the conclusion of a witness' testimony before our
committee, he is entitled under the rules of this committee and of the House to
address the committee for a period of 5 minutes in the event he desires to in
any way clarify his testimony or expand upon it or explain it. I would at this
time extend to you 5 minutes for that purpose if you so desire.
Senor MIRABAL. Thank you. I would like to state to the members of the
committee that in connection with this entire process of the two visits that he
made to the consulate, my impression from the very first moment was that it was
in fact a provocation. He insisted on the urgency of his need for a visa. He
indicated that he was being persecuted. He indicated that he could not stay long
in
On the first day he was not given the visa because he did not fulfill the
necessary requirements, requirements that are asked of all individuals who are
visa applicants.
On the second time he came to file the application, and yet he insisted
that he needed to have it processed rapidly with great urgency. It was because
of these demands of his that the argument with Mr. Azcue and with the secretary
followed, and in fact during the argument he accused us all of not being true
revolutionaries, of not being sensitive to the fact that he was being
persecuted.
I must say that from the very beginning I considered this a provocation,
and I assured that in the manner in which we handled the case we followed the
directives of the Foreign Ministry in the
Page
178
178
sense
that all individuals have to follow certain procedures in order to obtain a
visa.
I would also like to say personally that as far as I am concerned, it is
a source of great satisfaction to be present here before the committee because
in the first place I consider this a very important investigation in itself and
also because we are very interested in its successful outcome.
I am individually--and my government wants to insure--that things will be
perfectly cleared up as a result. We feel that there have been efforts at making
propaganda, at conducting campaigns, and
From the reports that have been read here, apparently even I had been
linked to this event, and I can assure that neither
Chairman STOKES. Thank you very much, Mr. Mirabal.
We also want to thank you for having volunteered to be here today and to
testify before this committee, and we are deeply appreciative for your
appearance.
Does counsel have any statement to make?
Mr. STANDARD. Just this, Mr. Chairman. In anticipation of your
incorporating in this record the 4 hour approximate transcript of the interview
with President Castro, I ask that you incorporate into the record and make it a
part of it a series of articles which are referred to but not with specificity
by date or name.
First, a series of three articles by the French journalist, Jean Daniel,
one which appeared in L'Express in French and two articles which appeared in the
magazine, The New Republic.
Second, in the course of the interview several references are made to
Ambassador William Atwood. Those statements describe his role in contacting the
Cuban Government at the behest of President Kennedy. And I ask that those be
included as well.
Chairman STOKES. Without objection, counsel's request is hereby granted.
JFK exhibit F-685 may be entered into therecord at this point.
[The information follows:]
Page
179
179
JFK
EXHIBIT F-685
Page
180
180
JFK
EXHIBIT F-685 cont.
Page
181
181
JFK
EXHIBIT F-685 cont.
Page
182
182
JFK
EXHIBIT F-685 cont.
Page
183
183
JFK
EXHIBIT F-685 cont.
Page
184
184
JFK
EXHIBIT F-685 cont.
Page
185
185
JFK
EXHIBIT F-685 cont.
Page
186
186
JFK
EXHIBIT F-685 cont.
Page
187
187
JFK
EXHIBIT F-685 cont.
Page
188
188
JFK
EXHIBIT F-685 cont.
Page
189
189
JFK
EXHIBIT F-685 cont.
Page
190
190
JFK
EXHIBIT F-685 cont.
Page
191
191
JFK
EXHIBIT F-685 cont.
Page
192
192
JFK
EXHIBIT F-685 cont.
Page
193
193
Mr.
STANDARD. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman STOKES. Because of the lateness of the hour, it will be the plan
of the committee to make the presentation tomorrow morning of the interview with
President Fidel Castro in
This committee made two trips to
I want to acknowledge the presence here today at the witness table of one
of the gentlemen who was extremely helpful and cooperative to this committee in
terms of both of those trips, Senor Ricardo Escartin, who is the Consul and the
First Secretary of the Cuban Interest Section. It was necessary for Mr. Escartin
and other members of the Cuban Interest Section to meet with me on many
occasions and also with Professor Blakey and members of this staff. We spent a
great deal of time and received a great deal of cooperation from him on every
occasion.
Also, in
I also want to acknowledge the presence here at the witness table today
of another gentleman who was extremely cooperative with us, and that was Senor
Felipe Villa, Captain of the Ministry of the Interior, and during the course of
both of our trips he extended a great deal of cooperation and help and
assistance to this committee.
I would like also to mention two very talented and able Cuban translators
who were extremely helpful to us, Ms. Juanita Vera Nellie and Ruiz de Sarade.
Others who gave cooperation and hospitality to this committee were Dr.
Mondo Torres Santrail, the Minister of Justice; Oscar Fernandez Mel, the mayor
of Havana; Jose Raimond Fernandez, Minister of Education, all of whom were
extremely helpful and hospitable to us on our stay in Cuba.
In addition, we want to express our deep appreciation to President Fidel
Castro. On the first trip we made to
During that period of time, the President made it very clear that it was
the purpose of the Cuban Government to make it very clear that their government
had nothing to do whatsoever with this very tragic occurrence in this country.
It was the intent of their government to do everything possible to cooperate and
see that the Cuban Government did everything in its power to clear up whatever
it could around a tragedy of this type.
So we are indeed grateful for the kind of cooperation that this
congressional committee has received, and we want to thank each of you gentlemen
for the assistance you have given us in this very important matter.
Page
194
194
If there is nothing further at this time, I might also say that we are
once again indebted to the U.S. Marshall Service for the security arrangements
here around the distinguished witnesses who have appeared here today.
We also would like to thank the interpreter from the State Department,
Mr. Hervas, for a very efficient job he has done here today.
At this time the chair will request that everyone remain seated until our
witnesses have departed from the hearing room. Thereafter, we will adjourn these
hearings until 9 a.m. tomorrow morning. Thank you, gentlemen. You are excused.
[Whereupon, at 4:22 p.m., the committee recessed, to reconvene at 9 a.m.,
Tuesday, September 19, 1978.]
Contact Information tomnln@cox.net
Page Visited
Times