TESTIMONY OF BUELL WESLEY FRAZIER
The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will be in order.
Mr. BALL. I would like to assign Commission Exhibit No. 364 to a paper sack which the FBI has identified as their C-109 Exhibit. That will be the Commission's Exhibit No. 364 for identification at this time.
The CHAIRMAN. All right.
(The paper sack referred to was marked Commission's Exhibit No. 364 for identification.)
Mr. BALL. Also for the record I would like to announce that prior to--this morning, Mr. Cortlandt Cunningham and Charles Killion of the Federal Bureau of Investigation laboratory, the Ballistics Division, Firearms Division, I guess it is, broke down, that is unscrewed Commission Exhibit No. 139, an Italian rifle, and that rifle has been placed in, after being disassembled., has been placed in Commission's No. 364 for identification, that paper sack.
The CHAIRMAN. All right.
Mr. BALL. We have also here before the Commission, Commission No. 142 which is a paper sack which is identified as the FBI's Exhibit No. 10. I think that has its number, exhibit number on it.
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I have been informed that was 142. My notes show that the brown paper sack is 142.
I think we can call the witness now.
The CHAIRMAN. All right; would you call Mr. Frazier, please.
Raise your right hand to be sworn, please.
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. FRAZIER. I do.
The CHAIRMAN. Will you be seated, please?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Joseph Ball of our staff will examine you, Mr. Frazier, but I would like to read a very short statement concerning the purpose of the meeting.
The purpose of today's hearing is to hear the testimony of Buell Wesley Frazier, and Linnie Mae Randle. The Commission has been advised, that these two witnesses have stated that they saw Lee Harvey Oswald on the morning of November 22, 1963. The Commission proposes to ask these witnesses questions concerning their knowledge of the assassination of President Kennedy. You have a copy of this, have you not?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. All right, you may proceed, Mr. Ball.
Mr. BALL. You call yourself Buell or Wesley?
Mr. FRAZIER. I go by Wesley.
Mr. BALL. Well, Wesley, what is your age?
Mr. FRAZIER. Sir?
Mr. BALL. What is your age?
Mr. FRAZIER. Nineteen.
Mr. BALL. Where do you live?
Mr. FRAZIER. For the time being I am living in Irving now.
Mr. BALL. Irving, Tex.
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What is the address where you live?
Mr. FRAZIER. 2439 West Fifth Street.
Mr. BALL. Did you live there in November 1963?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. BALL. And who lives in that house with you?
Mr. FRAZIER. My sister and brother-in-law and their three children.
Mr. BALL. Will you state their names, your sister's name?
Mr. FRAZIER. Linnie Mae Randle and my brother-in-law. I believe his real name is William Edward Randle. We call him Bill. They have three little girls, Diana, Patricia and Caroline Sue.
Mr. BALL. Where does your mother live?
Mr. FRAZIER. She lives in Huntsville.
Mr. BALL. Where is that?
Mr. FRAZIER. That is about 200 miles south of Dallas there.
Mr. BALL. What is the name of the town?
Mr. FRAZIER. Town, you mean where my mother lives? Huntsville.
Mr. BALL. Huntsville?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; that is about, it is about 70, 80 miles north of Houston.
Mr. BALL. What is your mother's name?
Mr. FRAZIER. Essie Mae Williams.
Mr. BALL. Was she visiting you and your sister sometime in November 1963?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; she was.
Mr. BALL. How long was she there?
Mr. FRAZIER. She was there for, I believe, for a period of about 4 or 5 weeks because my stepfather was with her and he got sick and they had to put him in the hospital and he was in the hospital 3 or 4 weeks, somewhere, 4 or 5 weeks because they were there a week before he got sick.
Mr. BALL. Then on November 21 and 22, living with you in this residence at Irving, Tex., were your mother, Mrs. Williams, and your sister, Linnie Mae Randle?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
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Mr. BALL. And her husband and their three children?
Mr. FRAZIER. That is right.
Mr. BALL. Where do you work?
Mr. FRAZIER. Work at Texas School Books.
Mr. BALL. How long have you worked there?
Mr. FRAZIER. I have been working there since September.
Mr. BALL. September of 1963?
Mr. FRAZIER. Correct.
Mr. BALL. What kind of work do you do there?
Mr. FRAZIER. I fill orders.
Mr. BALL. How did you happen to get that job?
Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I went to see, first I come up there and started looking for a job and couldn't find one myself so I went to one of these employment agencies and through that a lady called up one morning, I was fixing to go out and look for one, I was looking for myself in the meantime when they were, too, and so she called up and gave me a tip to it if I was interested in a job like that I could go over there and see about that and for the time being I wasn't working and needed some money and so I did and I went over there and saw Mr. Truly, and he gave me an interview, and then he hired me the same day I went over there.
Mr. BALL. You say you came up, you mean you came up from Huntsville?
Mr. FRAZIER. That is right; yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. That was in September 1963?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; it was.
Mr. BALL. Looking for a job around Dallas?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you go to live with your sister at that time?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. BALL. What--where is the employment agency and what is its name when you first applied for a job?
Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I went to several but, see, this one got me this job the main one was Massey, the employment agency, and it is over there on Shady Grove Road.
Mr. BALL. In Dallas?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; in Irving.
Mr. BALL. How do you spell that name, the name of the employment agency?
Mr. FRAZIER. Massey?
Mr. BALL. Yes.
Mr. FRAZIER. I believe it is M-a-s-s-e-y.
Mr. BALL. And it was a woman at the employment agency that called you and told you to go to see the Texas School Book Depository?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, right.
Mr. BALL. And you went to see Mr. Truly and after an interview he gave you a job?
Mr. FRAZIER Correct.
Mr. BALL. Then you started work there about what date in September?
Mr. FRAZIER. It was the 13th. I say that was the same day I went for an interview. I went early enough that morning that he told me to come back after lunch.
Mr. BALL. And you are still working there?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. When Mr. Truly hired you did he tell you it would be a full-time job or just a temporary job?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he told me that he was looking for somebody full time and I told him, well, that is what I wanted, and so he said that would be just fine.
Mr. BALL. How much did he start to pay you?
Mr. FRAZIER. He started me off with a dollar and a quarter an hour.
Mr. BALL. That is for an eight-hour day?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right. Five days a week.
Mr. BALL. Did you commute back and forth from your sister's home in Irving?
Mr. FRAZIER. Over there to the Texas School Books?
Mr. BALL. To the Texas School Book Depository.
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Mr. FRAZIER Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. From the first day?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And you still do?
Mr. FRAZIER, Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Do you own a car?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Your own car?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. You had it, did you, when you started to work?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Still have it?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And you have been since September driving that car from your sister's home in Irving over to the Texas School Book Depository?
Mr. FRAZIER. Correct.
Mr. BALL. Go there in the morning?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. What time do you get to work?
Mr. FRAZIER. I get there around 8 o'clock.
Mr. BALL. When do you quit?
Mr. FRAZIER. I quit at 4:45.
Mr. BALL. Then you drive home?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. How long for lunch?
Mr. FRAZIER. 45 minutes.
Mr. BALL. Do all the employees have the same lunch hour?
Mr. FRAZIER. Now, the ones who work down there filling book orders around where I work now, so we all work the same hours. Some people work up there in the offices, I hear that they come in a little bit later. Now, I don't know for sure but I see primarily the ones who does the same type of work I do, we all start the same time and work the same time.
Mr. BALL. Those are the people who fill the orders?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. How far is it in miles from your sister's home to Texas School Book Depository?
Mr. FRAZIER. It is roughly around 15 miles.
Mr. BALL. And did you take the same route every day?
Mr. FRAZIER. You mean since I have been going over there; since the first day?
Mr. BALL. That is right.
Mr. FRAZIER. Up to now?
Mr. BALL. Yes, right.
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I didn't.
You see, I found two ways, you can more judge by the traffic and you can go some days one way and the traffic will be easier than others, but most times I use just one route.
Mr. BALL. What route did you usually use?
Mr. FRAZIER. Used one like you go down from the house there.
Mr. BALL. Yes.
Mr. FRAZIER. Go down and right Storey Road, see Fifth Street is just one block off Storey Road, and just go down and hit Storey Road and stay on it until you come to Stemmons Freeway and you stay right on Stemmons until you come right on into Dallas there.
Mr. BALL. About what length of time does it take you to go from your sister's home to work in the morning?
Mr. FRAZIER. Usually, I usually leave not any later than 7:25. I usually try to leave about 7:20, and if you leave at 7:20. you usually get around there, by the time you get down to the parking lot now it is usually pretty close to 5 minutes to 8 and that gives you enough time to walk to the Book Depository, put up your lunch and take off your coat.
Mr. BALL. Did you have a place to park your car?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.
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Mr. BALL. Was it assigned to you by Mr. Truly?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he just said we had a parking lot there and showed me where it was and said you can park in the parking lot.
Mr. BALL. Was that the parking lot two or three blocks from the building.
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir, it is down there; right across from the warehouse there.
Mr. BALL. Then you would walk from there from that parking lot--
Mr. FRAZIER. Up to the other Depository up there at the corner of Houston and Main.
Mr. BALL. We have here a map which has been marked as Commission's Exhibit No. 361.
Mr. FRAZIER. I see.
Mr. BALL. And north is to the bottom of the map.
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Instead of the top, as usually the case.
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. It has two pictures over here, one to the left and one to the right of the map.
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. Let's take a look at the picture to the right of the map. Do you recognize that area?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I do.
Mr. BALL. What is it?
Mr. FRAZIER. I see that is right there where you say that is the street going up to the parking lot there.
Mr. BALL. Do you recognize this car?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What car is that?
Mr. FRAZIER. That is my car.
Mr. BALL. Is that where you usually park every day?
Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I would say at the time being when I first started to work there I first started to park there but now I park on the other side of the fence there.
Mr. BALL. But that is a picture of the parking lot, is it?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. Where you park is in the parking lot?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir, I park inside the fence but what I am talking about--I park on the different side of the lot.
Mr. BALL. Different side of the same lot?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; we just have one lot there.
Mr. BALL. Do you see the Texas School Book Depository Building?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; right there.
Mr. BALL. And you walked from about the place where your car is parked?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Usually up to the Depository Building?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right, correct.
Mr. BALL. Now, the map to the left, upper left-hand corner of the map, there is a picture.
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Do you see this area where I point my finger which is marked "parking lot No. 1."
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What is that?
Mr. FRAZIER. That is the same parking lot we were looking at right here.
Mr. BALL. What route do you walk, which way do you walk when you park in this parking lot No. 1, to the Texas School Book Depository Building?
Mr. FRAZIER. Do you want me to get up to where I can show it to you?
Mr. BALL. Yes; show it to us.
Mr. FRAZIER. I usually always come up, you know, you can come right, you see the building right down here, and you notice a series of railroad tracks, so usually early in the morning, now about 8 o'clock there is usually not any cars right here, but I say they are switching back and forth.
Mr. BALL. By "cars" you mean railroad cars?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; they usually start switching around 8 o'clock. Usually,
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there are not any cars, it is usually a long train that moves up pretty soon but I usually move up in this direction here, especially when it is dry. When it is wet I walk on this because it is harder. But when it is raining, I usually walk around here, because in this area right here, when you get up closer to the railroad tracks it has more trenches, and it gets muddy and slimy and you can get bogged down.
So, when it is bad weather, I usually walk on this side. But I say nine times out of ten I come up right down here.
Mr. BALL. Let's look at the map. Here is the parking lot here, is that the parking lot where you usually park?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; it is.
Mr. BALL. This is parking lot No. 1.
Mr. FRAZIER. That is parking lot No. 1, isn't it?
Mr. BALL. Right.
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. We will show you this map later, but just to illustrate, how do you usually, what is the route you usually take, just show us on the board here, the route you usually take to the Texas School Book Depository Building in the morning?
Mr. FRAZIER. You mean when I am coming off of the freeway?
Mr. BALL. After you park here.
Mr. FRAZIER. You know right here, you say like the car, you notice that little house right there, I assume you have checked off. You know like I was telling you now, I usually park over in this corner. But at the time I parked right there. But anyway, there is a little cyclone fence and this was the series of railroad tracks, I was talking to you about.
Mr. BALL. That is right.
Mr. FRAZIER. I usually come down here.
Mr. BALL. Munger Street?
Mr. FRAZIER. That is right, and usually cross along the railroad tracks and come up here.
Mr. BALL. Houston Street?
Mr. FRAZIER. Houston runs into it, now they are doing some work across the tracks and you can't go any further than the tracks, right along here this line, cyclone, but that type of fence and I usually walk right up, you know--
Mr. BALL. To the buildings?
Mr. FRAZIER Right.
Mr. BALL. And enter the rear of the building?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.
Now, we call it a loading zone out there, dock area.
Mr. BALL. Fine.
Did anyone else ride with you in the morning, usually did anyone else ride with you in the morning from home to work?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; they didn't.
Mr. BALL. Did anybody ride with you from work to home?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; they didn't.
Mr. BALL. When did you first hear of Lee Harvey Oswald, first hear the name?
Mr. FRAZIER. I first heard, I never really did know his name, we just called him Lee around there. But the first time I ever saw him was the first day he come to work.
Mr. BALL. Had you heard he was coming to work before he came to work?
Mr. FRAZIER. I will say, you know, talking back and forth with the bossman all the time and from being around and getting along real fine and so he told me, I assume the day after he hired him that he was going to have him come in on Monday and he asked me had I ever seen him and I told him then no; I had never seen him.
(At this point, Representative Ford entered the hearing room.)
Mr. BALL. Had your sister told you that this fellow Lee was coming to work?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; she did. She said one afternoon when I went home she told me she found out from one of the neighbors there he came over for that interview with Mr. Truly and Mr. Truly had hired him.
Mr. BALL. You heard that from your sister?
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Mr. FRAZIER. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Before you saw him?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right, before I saw him.
Mr. BALL. When you first saw him was it a Monday morning?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; it was.
Mr. BALL. Do you have any idea of the date itself, do you have any memory of the date when you first saw him?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I don't.
Mr. BALL. Was it sometime around the middle of October, do you think, would that be close to it?
Mr. FRAZIER. It could have been because it was sometime in October because I remember I went to work there on the 13th and I had been working there, 4 or 5 weeks and then he come there.
Mr. BALL. Where was he when you first saw him?
Mr. FRAZIER. I first saw him he was--we have a table not as large as this, but just about half as large as this, and we have just like you walk up to it where I am sitting over here and we have four or five boxes there and we have different names on it, you know, for different publishing companies, and he was there getting some orders, and I say, as well as I remember, I said, the foreman there was getting him out some real easy orders. Some of the orders we have are real easy to fill, easier than the others, you don't have to know so much about the textbooks to be able to fill them and he was getting some of them easy ones out to start on, when we have a great number of them, you see, the little pamphlet type books and all we do is count them out and read the invoice number.
Mr. BALL. What was the name of the foreman showing him?
Mr. FRAZIER. You mean the foreman, that was Mr. Shelly.
Mr. BALL. S-h-e-d?
Mr. FRAZIER. S-h-e-l-l-y.
Mr. BALL. Shelly. What floor was this on?
Mr. FRAZIER. It was on the first floor there.
Mr. BALL. Did Shelly introduce you to him or did you go up and shake hands with him?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he didn't. I remember, I knew, you know that he was going to be coming to work so naturally I hadn't been there very long, you know, living in Dallas and so I wanted to make friends with everybody I could, because you know yourself friendship is something you can't buy with money and you always need friends, so I went up and introduced and he told me his name was Lee and I said "We are glad to have you."
We got talking back and forth and he come to find out I knew his wife was staying there at the time with this other woman and so I thought he would go out there and I said, "Are you going to be going home this afternoon?"
And he told me then, he told me that he didn't have a car, you know, and so I told him. I said, "Well, I live out there in Irving,"- I found out he lived out there and so I said, "Any time you want to go just let me know."
So I thought he would go home every day like most men do but he told me no, that he wouldn't go home every day and then he asked me could he ride home say like Friday afternoon on weekends and come back on Monday morning and I told him that would be just fine with me.
I told him if he wanted a ride any other time just let me know before I go off and leave him because when it comes to quitting time some of these guys, you know, some of them mess around the bathroom and some of them quit early and some of them like that and some leave at different times than others.
But I said from talking to him then, I say, he just wanted to ride home on weekends with me and I said that was fine.
Mr. BALL. Did he say at that time he was living in Dallas, he had a room in Dallas?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; he did. He had an apartment.
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Mr. BALL. Did he say where?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he didn't. He just said he had an apartment over in Dallas.
Mr. BALL. Had you known his wife before that? Had you ever met his wife, Marina Oswald?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I never had.
Mr. BALL. Had you heard that a Russian girl was staying there in the neighborhood?
Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I say about this time I met him, you know, I knew that at the time then but I didn't think anything about it because, you know, the people travel from one country to the next all the time.
Mr. BALL. Did you know Mrs. Paine, Ruth Paine?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I didn't until all this had happened because I will be frank with you, people around there, I say, they just don't make friends very easy. I say you can have somebody living three doors from you and you can live a couple of years and you still might not know the name.
Mr. BALL. And you had never met Mrs. Ruth Paine before the day you met Lee Oswald?
Mr. FRAZIER. No.
Mr. BALL. What kind of work did Lee do, what kind of work was assigned to him?
Mr. FRAZIER. He filled orders like I do and several other men.
Mr. BALL. How many order fillers were there employed at that time?
Mr. FRAZIER. Oh, I would say roughly around five, six at that time. Because about the time we was real busy, the busy season. I come there, you know, and they was going pretty good when I went to work there and I say we were still going pretty good when he come to work there.
We had a lot of work to do and usually when we have a lot of work to do we have more order fillers.
Mr. BALL. Did he ride home with you in your car on weekends?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; he did.
Mr. BALL. On Friday nights.
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. From that time until November 22, did he ride home with you every weekend?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he did every weekend but one.
Mr. BALL. Do you remember that date?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I don't.
Mr. BALL. In the statement you made I believe you said it was the 16th and 17th of November. I am just reminding you of that. Does it refresh your memory any?
Mr. FRAZIER. I remember one weekend, I say, right now I can't recall because just to be frank with you I couldn't tell you roughly; I say I might have at that time but I say it slipped my mind but the thing is I do know he rode home with me every weekend up to that but one.
Mr. BALL. And why did--did he tell you why he wasn't going to ride home that weekend?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, he did. He said he was working on his driving license and he was going to go take a driving test.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever ask him afterward if he had taken his driver's test?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I never did. I assumed that he had taken it and passed it what part of the test he was taking. Most men do, I say, they usually work at it, study at it good enough so they don't flunk out.
Representative FORD. Do you have to get a learner's permit in Texas before you can get a driver's permit?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I say, you don't. Just two steps to it. I say, first no matter what age you are; say, when you have to be at least 14 is about the youngest you can get it in Texas and then you have to take a DE, Driver's Education, if you are going to school but otherwise, the age is 16 and you just go around to the driving license bureau there, they have an office in most any
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town of any size in Texas, and you just go in and see the driving license man and just tell him that you plan to take your driving test and you would like to have the auto manual, and the manual covers any laws and so forth in the State of Texas, and you can either study for your operator's or your commercial and you pick out which one you want, and you study up for it and then he is there, he tells you what days he is in his office, and so he goes there a certain time and he gives you several sheets of paper, a quiz and you answer them questions, and if you--you have to make a grade of 70 on it to pass and if you make a grade of 70 or above, well, I say, in another week or two you go down there and you say like for instance if you are going to want a driver's license for a car--
Representative FORD. Did Lee ever ask you or did Lee ever tell you whether he had ever actually applied for a driver's license?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he never had, except I told you that weekend that he said he was going down to take his driving test, and so I knew from being in the State of Texas that you have to know something; you have to have the manuals and so forth to study up on it. Or there isn't any use going down there if you don't know the rules because you are not wasting any time but your own.
Mr. BALL. Do you remember whether or not one weekend that he didn't go down with you but he rode back with you, say, on the Armistice Day holiday? Do you remember?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I don't.
Mr. BALL. Your memory is that he went,, he rode home with you every Friday and came back the following Monday?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Except this one weekend?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right, that is what I say. If he went home with me on Friday afternoon he always rode back with me on Monday morning. It wasn't no added job when he would come with me on the weekend. He would ride home with me on Friday and he would come back with me on Monday.
Mr. BALL. Did he ever tell you that he had or had not applied for a driver's license?
Mr. FRAZIER. No; he had not except he told me he was going down to take it.
Mr. BALL. He never told you that he had or had not?
Mr. FRAZIER. No.
Mr. BALL. And he never told you whether he had obtained a driver's license?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he didn't.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever talk to him on whether or not he could drive a car, knew how to drive a car?
Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I say, I believe the first afternoon, the first time we was going home and we were talking about that and he said he was working on his driving license then, and then naturally like I told you several weeks later, then he told me he was going to take his driving test and I assumed he could drive a car being as old as he was because most everybody in the State of Texas by. the time you are my age if you can't drive a car something is wrong with you.
Mr. BALL. He did never say whether he could or couldn't?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. Did he ever ask you about the parts of a car?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I don't believe he did.
Mr. BALL. Do you remember any conversation when he asked you what the clutch was?
Mr. FRAZIER. Oh, yes. We got talking about that. He noticed, you know, most cars as old as mine, you know most of them are standard shift, and when I bought this old car it kind of fooled me it had automatic transmission on it so we got talking about it on the way home driving home and I told him that I really prefer a standard because you know, they are a lot easier to work on and you know, when an automatic goes dead it goes dead, there is no rolling
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a couple of feet and jumping on the clutch and starting when the battery is down.
And I remember he said it was a little bit different to drive with a clutch. I said, if you are not used to it, but if you get used to it. You have to find a friction point on any car, even on Chevrolet or Ford, you know yourself the friction points on a clutch and the brakes are different adjusted on every car you drive.
And I told you there is nothing you do. You just have to get used to a car of the individual, you can drive one car to do it, and you can drive another one it may take you a couple of days to get used to it.
Mr. BALL. He is the one who mentioned the clutch, is he, that you didn't have a clutch?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
I guess he noticed that I didn't have a clutch.
Mr. BALL. I see.
Did he pay for any part of the trip, buy your gasoline?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he didn't. I never did ask him. Because like I said I drove over there anyway and it doesn't take any more to drive one guy than it does to drive a carload.
Mr. BALL. Did he offer to pay any time?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he never did.
Mr. BALL. At any time coming back after a weekend did you ever stop at a restaurant for breakfast?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; we never did.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever stop on the way home on Friday night and buy anything?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; stopped one time and bought some gas, I remember.
Mr. BALL. Did he pay for it?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he didn't.
Mr. BALL. Did he offer to?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he didn't.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever see him have any money in his possession, bills, change?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I never did see him out playing around with any money.
Mr. BALL. On the way back and forth did you talk very much to each other?
Mr. FRAZIER. No. sir: not very much. lie is. probably in your line of business you have probably seen a lot of guys who talk a lot and some don't and he was one of these types that just didn't talk. And I have seen, you know, I am not very old but I have seen a lot of guys in my time, just going to school, different boys and girls, some talk a lot and some don't, so I didn't think anything strange about that.
About the only time you could get anything out of the talking was about babies, you know, he had one and he was expecting another, that was one way he had him get that job because his wife was pregnant and I would always get something out of it when I asked him about the babies because it seemed he was very fond of children because when I asked him he chuckled and told me about what he was doing about the babies over the weekend and sometimes we would talk about the weather, and sometimes he would go to work and it would be cloudy in the morning and it would come out that afternoon after work, sometimes during the day and it would turn to be just one of the prettiest days you would want anywhere, and he would say some comment about that, but not very much.
He would say a few words and then he would cut off.
Mr. BALL. Did he tell you he had been to Russia, say anything about that?
Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I say, we were talking about one time talking about the service, and so I asked him had he ever been overseas and he said he had, and I asked him had he ever been to Germany and he said he had been through there.
So, most times when boys are in the service in the United States they either go to Japan or, I say, they either go over there or you know, go to some of these, say, like Germany or France somewhere like that.
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And so other than that he told me that he had been through there.
Mr. BALL. Did he say he had been to Russia?
Mr. FRAZIER. He said, you know, like I say, he said he had been over there and he said he had been there so I thought when he told me, yes; he had, so I thought maybe, you know, by being, I know he told me had been in service and I thought maybe that is how he got in.
Mr. BALL. In other words, your answer is yes; he did tell you he had been in Russia?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. Did he go into detail and tell you how he got there and what he did there?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, he didn't. I, to be frank with you I, was more interested about France and Germany and I asked him about them towns and he told me he liked France, I mean he said not that he didn't like France, he said People in France was more the kind to con the United States boys out of their money and he was in Germany there 2 or 3 days and he said he liked Germany better than France because that is one reason. Because he said if you didn't really know how to count that French money them French guys would really take you.
Mr. BALL. Did he say anything about being in the Marines?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; he told me he was a Marine.
Mr. BALL. That he had been to Japan?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he didn't say he had been to Japan.
Mr. BALL. Ever talk about politics?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he didn't.
Mr. BALL. Ever mention any subjects like, political parties, the Democrats, Republicans?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he didn't.
Mr. BALL. Ever mention anything about Communists, Marxists or any words like that did he use?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did he tell you where he met his wife?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he didn't.
Mr. BALL. Did he ever talk much about his wife?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he didn't. I say, like I said, he was just a guy who didn't talk very much at all.
Mr. BALL. At the Texas School Book Depository, you have lunch, 45-minute lunch hour, don't you?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. Did you pack your lunch from home?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir, I always took lunch.
Mr. BALL. Do you remember whether or not when Oswald came back with you on any Monday morning or any weekend did he pack his lunch?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; he did.
Mr. BALL. He did?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. When he rode with me, I say he always brought lunch except that one day on November 22 he didn't bring his lunch that day.
Mr. BALL. But every other day he brought a lunch?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right, when he rode with me.
Mr. BALL. Would he bring it in a paper sack or what kind of a container?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; like a little paper sack you get out of a grocery store, you have seen these little old sacks that you could buy, sandwich bag, sack.
Mr. BALL. Did you carry your lunch in a paper sack?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. BALL. There is a lunch room in the Texas School Book Depository?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Is that on the first floor?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; on the second floor.
Mr. BALL. There is some kind of a recreation room on the first floor?
Mr. FRAZIER. There is a little domino room there where some of the guys go in and play dominoes.
Mr. BALL. But the lunch room is on the second floor?
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Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. Do they sell any food there?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; they don't. About all they sell in the lunch room is different types of soft drinks and then near the window, the me, who work in the offices there they have coffee there, you can drink coffee up there, I never did. Then you have an assortment of cookies and candies and peanuts and so forth on the machine there. That is about all they have.
Mr. BALL. Do you remember whether or not Oswald packed his lunch, brought his lunch on other days, the days that he didn't ride with you?
Mr. FRAZIER. To be frank with you, I don't know whether he brought his lunch because I will tell you one way, some guys bring their lunch there and some guys buy it there because we have a caterer service, you see, comes around about 10 o'clock the man comes around and several of the boys they go out there and buy their lunch from the catering service.
Mr. BALL. Then later on at 11:45?
Mr. FRAZIER. 12 o'clock is when we always eat lunch.
Mr. BALL. 12 to 12:45?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. When you get off your job, did you usually go to the lunch room on the second floor to eat your lunch?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; most of the time I don't. Most of the time you see several of us guys sitting down at our own table and we just sit there. I say we usually go up there to get something to drink and I say I have ate up there several times but most of the times I eat with the guys I work with.
Usually we just sit down and eat, and we lay down on the big tables there and sometimes talk or go to sleep.
Mr. BALL. That is on the first floor?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. Did you notice where Oswald had his lunch usually?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I didn't.
Now, I say we have a refrigerator there, some of the boys put their lunches in there.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever eat lunch with Oswald?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I never have.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever see him eating lunch?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I never have seen him eat lunch. I have seen him go to the Doctor Pepper machine by the refrigerator and get a Doctor Pepper but I never have seen him, you might say, sit right down and eat his lunch.
Mr. BALL. In driving back and forth with Oswald did you ever hear him--did he ever talk about guns?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he never did.
Mr. BALL. Did he ever tell you he owned a gun?
Mr. FRAZIER No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did Oswald ever say anything to you about buying an automobile in any of these trips?
Mr. FRAZIER. One time we were talking about it he said he thought he would just buy him an old car, you know, like mine. I say most models like that you can get them pretty cheap and as far as going back and forth for work that is about all they are good for. I said, "You don't need a new car to be used for going back and forth. You don't need it unless you drive a good-sized distance."
But that is what he said in the long run he planned to buy one but so far as I know he never did.
Mr. BALL. Did he say that once or more than once?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; just one time.
Mr. BALL. When he said he would get an old car?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Did he ever tell you he had gone to an old car dealer?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did he ever tell you that. he had tried out a car?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir. So far as I--like I say, that one time, that is as far as I can ever recall that we even talked much about anything--about cars-- except
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a while ago he asked me--we were talking about the clutch and automatic transmission and so forth.
Mr. BALL. There is a bus service between Dallas and Irving?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; there is.
Mr. BALL. Can you get the bus anywhere near the Texas School Book Depository?
Mr. FRAZIER. To be frank with you I will say I have never ridden the bus from Irving over there, but I assume you can get off there just like any other bus at any street corner you want to.
Mr. BALL. Do you know what the fare is?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I don't.
Mr. BALL. Is there a toil charge to call from Dallas to Irving?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; it is not.
Mr. BALL. For 10 cents you can call there, can you?
Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I say just for your regular telephone bill, you just pick it up and call.
Mr. BALL. I see.
Now, there was the one date that Oswald came to you and asked you to drive him back to Irving, it was not a Friday, was it?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; it wasn't.
Mr. BALL. It was on a Thursday.
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. Was that the 21st of November?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Well, tell us about that.
Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I say, we were standing like I said at the four-headed table about half as large as this, not, quite half as large, but anyway I was standing there getting the orders in and he said, "Could I ride home with you this afternoon?"
And I said, "Sure. You know, like I told you, you can go home with me any time you want to, like I say anytime you want to go see your wife that is all right with me."
So automatically I knew it wasn't Friday, I come to think it wasn't Friday and I said, "Why are you going home today?"
And he says, "I am going home to get some curtain rods." He said, "You know, put in an apartment."
He wanted to hang up some curtains and I said, "Very well." And I never thought more about it and I had some invoices in my hands for some orders and I walked on off and started filling the orders.
Mr. BALL. This was on what floor?
Mr. FRAZIER. This was on the first floor.
Mr. BALL. About what time in the morning?
Mr. FRAZIER. I would say sometime between eight and ten, because I go to work at eight and I would break at ten.
Mr. BALL. Was it at the break time or before?
Mr. FRAZIER. It was before the break.
Mr. BALL. It was before noon then?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you see him at the noon hour?
Mr. FRAZIER That day?
Mr. BALL. That day.
Mr. FRAZIER. I don't recall, to be frank with you. You know, I will just be frank with you, I say just like after a guy works there for a while and he comes by and he walks by you, you don't pay so much attention but say like somebody else comes in there strange, you automatically just look at them.
Mr. BALL. Did you talk to him again until quitting time?
Mr. FRAZIER. Well, to be frank with you, like I said, the only time you know, like I say, he didn't talk very much and about the only time other than like I told you about talking about them babies and about the weather sometimes he would ask me some questions about a book because down there, I say, if you have ever been acquainted with books a lot of times maybe just a little bit of difference in a title or something like that would make the difference in what
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type of book they want and sometimes maybe they will forget to put that on there and
you look at the price.
If you can tell the price, some editions we have a paperback and some we have hard bound and the price can automatically tell you which one they want, and sometimes he would ask me something like that which book do they want and I would tell him and that was about the only conversation we had.
Mr. BALL. You didn't talk any more with him that day concerning the ride home?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. But you did go home with him?
Mr. FRAZIER. That is he rode home with me.
Mr. BALL. What time did you get off from work?
Mr. FRAZIER. 4:40.
Mr. BALL. What time did you get to Irving?
Mr. FRAZIER. Well, usually get there, if you make good time, get there maybe around 5:20 or 5:25. But if you catch the traffic and catch the train crossing the tracks, it is usually about 5:30 or 5:35, it is just according to how bad the traffic is.
If you get ahead of it before it starts coming out, you can make pretty good headway.
Mr. BALL. Did you make any stop in the car before you got home?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I don't believe we did.
Mr. BALL. Did the two of you walk together down to the parking lot?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; we did.
Mr. BALL. And you dropped him off at the place where his wife was staying, did you?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I believe I did. I, to be frank with you I, say sometimes he rode home with me, sometimes--a little store not too far from the house, there and if I was going to the store I would just drop him off by the house, but if I wasn't going to the store he would usually go on to the corner near the house and walk the rest of the way to the house up to where his wife was staying just about a half a block from my house up to where he was, his wife was staying, so he would walk there just a little bit.
Mr. BALL. Do you remember if you talked to him any on the walk down two or three blocks down to the parking lot, anything said that you can remember?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I don't believe so.
Mr. BALL. When you got in the car and went home do you remember if you said anything, if you said anything to him, or if he said anything to you?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I don't believe he did. Like I said, he didn't talk very much. About the only time we would talk was about the weather and babies, something like that.
Mr. BALL. Do you remember this day whether or not you let him walk to the house where his wife was staying?
Mr. FRAZIER. To be frank with you, I can't remember positively whether I let him off at the house or whether he got out there where I lived, just to be frank with you.
Mr. BALL. You know where the house is, don't you?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Where Mrs. Paine lives?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. How far is that from your house?
Mr. FRAZIER. Like I say, it is just about half a block up the street.
Mr. BALL. It is on the same street, is it?
Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I say, we lived at the corner of Westbrook and Fifth Street, and Fifth Street runs on up, you know, and I say they live on Fifth Street.
Mr. BALL. What direction does Fifth run, east, west, north or south?
Mr. FRAZIER. It runs east and west.
Mr. BALL. East and west. And you live on the corner of Westbrook and Fifth?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. And Paine's house is east or west of your house?
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Mr. FRAZIER. It is west.
Mr. BALL. It is west of of your house?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. About a half block?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. On the same street, Fifth Street?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. What side of the street do you live on, the north side or south side of Fifth Street?
Mr. FRAZIER. North side.
Mr. BALL. What side of the street do the Paine's live on, the north or south side of Fifth Street?
Mr. FRAZIER. North.
Mr. BALL. You both live on the north side?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. So to walk from Paine's house to your house you walk east along the north side of Fifth Street across Westbrook, is that right?
Mr. FRAZIER. Now, from the corner of Westbrook and Fifth you walk west on the same side of the street on the north side.
Mr. BALL. On the north side?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. From your house to Paine's?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right, you walk west.
Mr. BALL. And from Paine's house to yours. OK.
Now, did you see Oswald any that night, the Thursday night----
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I didn't.
Mr. BALL. You brought him home.
Next morning what time did you get up? What time did you get up the next morning?
Mr. FRAZIER. I believe I got up around 6:30, that is the time I usually get up, right around 6:30 there.
Mr. BALL. Always eat your breakfast before you go to work?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. Do you remember the night before, that is after you got home that night, that your sister asked you how it happened that Oswald came home with you?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; I believe she did or something. We got to talking about something and said, I told her that he had rode home with me and told her he said he was going to come home and pick up some curtain rods or something. I usually don't talk too much to my sister, sometimes she is not there when I am in because she is either at the store or something like that and I am either when she comes in as I say I am playing with the little nieces and we don't talk too much about work or something like that.
Mr. BALL. This night, this evening, do you remember you did talk to her about the fact that Oswald had come home with you?
Mr. FRAZIER. 1 believe I did.
Mr. BALL. Did you tell her what he had told you?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. I believe she said why did he come home now and I said, well, he says he was going to get some curtain rods.
Mr. BALL. The next morning you had breakfast about what time?
Mr. FRAZIER. Between 7 and 7:15, that is the time I usually, I usually come to the breakfast table about 7.
Mr. BALL. Breakfast table in the kitchen?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; it is in the den.
Mr. BALL. And the kitchen windows look out on what street, Westbrook or Fifth?
Mr. FRAZIER. Westbrook.
Mr. BALL. They look onto Westbrook?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. There is a back door, is there, to the kitchen?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; there is. I say when we come in there we have a double carport more or less type of garage.
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Mr. BALL. Is that on Westbrook?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; the entrance to the garage there, more or less carport; yes, the entrance is from Westbrook.
Mr. BALL. As you were having breakfast did your mother say anything to you about
Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I say--
Mr. BALL. Oswald?
Mr. FRAZIER. I was sitting there eating my breakfast there, so sitting there, I usually talk to my little nieces, you know, they have them cartoons on for a while and we usually talk a little bit back and forth while eating breakfast and I was just finishing my coffee there and my sister, you know, was working over there around, you know the sink there, and she was fixing my lunch so she was somewhere around there over on the cabinets fixing the cabinets and mother just happened to glance up and saw this man, you know, who was Lee looking in the window for me and she said, "Who is that?"
And I said, "That is Lee," and naturally he just walked around and so I thought he just walked around there on the carport right there close to the door and so I told her I had to go, so I went in there and brushed my teeth right quick and come through there and I usually have my coat laying somewhere on the chair and picked it up and put it on and by that time my sister had my lunch, you know, in a sack and sitting over there on the washer where I picked it up right there by the door and I just walked on out and we got in the car.
Mr. BALL. Now, did your sister say anything as you were having breakfast?
Mr. FRAZIER. No; she didn't say anything to me at all.
Mr. BALL. She didn't say anything to you either about Oswald or did she?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; say, she didn't say, you know, when I looked up and saw him I knew who it was.
Mr. BALL. You saw him?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. What was he doing?
Mr. FRAZIER. He just looked through the kitchen window. To see from there on the ground outside there. I say you don't have to be any height at all, you don't have to be too tall to be able to look in the kitchen window there.
I say, if you have the window open you can see in, if you have light on in there.
Mr. BALL. When your mother mentioned, "Who is that," you looked up and saw Lee Oswald in the kitchen window?
Mr. FRAZIER. I just saw him for a split second and when he saw I saw him, I guess he heard me say, "Well, it is time to go," and he walked down by the back door there.
Representative FORD. When he would go with you on Monday, on any Monday, was this the same procedure for getting to, getting in contact with you?
Mr. FRAZIER. You mean coming in there and looking through the window?
Representative FORD. Yes.
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; it wasn't. I say, that is the first time he had ever done that. I say. most times I would usually call him, you know, I was already out in the car fixing to go out the driveway there, and, you know, around to pick him up if he hadn't come down but most times, once in a while I picked him up at the house and another time he was already coming down the sidewalk to the house when I was fixing to pick him up and I usually picked him up around the corner there.
Representative FORD. Did this different method of him meeting you raise any questions in your mind?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; it didn't. I just thought maybe, you know, he just left a little bit earlier but when I looked up and saw that the clock was. I knew I was the one who was running a little bit late because, as I say, I was talking, sitting there eating breakfast and talking to the little nieces, it was later than I thought it was.
Mr. BALL. When you went out the back door where was Oswald?
Mr. FRAZIER. He was standing just a few feet there outside the back door there.
Mr. BALL. He wasn't in the car?
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Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he wasn't.
Mr. BALL. Was he near the car?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he wasn't.
You see, always I keep my car parked outside the carport there, on the other side.
Mr. BALL. He was just a few feet outside your back door when you came out?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. Did you walk together to the car?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; we did.
Mr. BALL. And you got in one side and he got in the other?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes. Right in front there.
Mr. BALL. Did you say usually you had to go by and pick him up?
Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I said I had a couple of times. Most of the time, you know, he was usually walking down the sidewalk as I was driving out of the driveway so, therefore, I didn't have to go up to the house there to pick him up. I just usually picked him up around the corner because he was usually on the sidewalk and I just stopped and picked him up.
Mr. BALL. Were you later than usual that morning?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I don't believe we were, because we got to work on time. I say, when I looked at the clock, after I glanced he was there a split second and I just turned around and looked at the clock to see what time it was and it was right amount 7:21 then and I went in and brushed my teeth real quick and running through the house put my coat on and we left.
Mr. BALL. You both got in the car about the same time?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. All right.
When you got in the car did you say anything to him or did he say anything to you?
Mr. FRAZIER. Let's see, when I got in the car I have a kind of habit of glancing over my shoulder and so at that time I noticed there was a package laying on the back seat, I didn't pay too much attention and I said, "What's the package, Lee?"
And he said, "Curtain rods," and I said, "Oh, yes, you told me you was going to bring some today."
That is the reason, the main reason he was going over there that Thursday afternoon when he was to bring back some curtain rods, so I didn't think any more about it when he told me that.
Mr. BALL. What did the package look like?
Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I will be frank with you, I would just, it is right as you get out of the grocery store, just more or less out of a package, you have seen some of these brown paper sacks you can obtain from any, most of the stores, some varieties, but it was a package just roughly about two feet long.
Mr. BALL. It was, what part of the back seat was it in?
Mr. FRAZIER. It was in his side over on his side in the far back.
Mr. BALL. How much of that back seat, how much space did it take up?
Mr. FRAZIER. I would say roughly around 2 feet of the seat.
Mr. BALL. From the side of the seat over to the center, is that the way you would measure it?
Mr. FRAZIER. If, if you were going to measure it that way from the end of the seat over toward the center, right. But I say like I said I just roughly estimate and that would be around two feet, give and take a few inches.
Mr. BALL. How wide was the package?
Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I would say the package was about that wide.
Mr. BALL. How wide would you say that would be?
Mr. FRAZIER. Oh, say, around 5 inches, something like that. 5, 6 inches or there. I don't--
Mr. BALL. The paper, was the color of the paper, that you would get in a grocery store, is that it, a bag in a grocery store?
Mr FRAZIER. Right. You have seen, not a real light color but you know normally, the normal color about the same color, you have seen these kinds of
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heavy duty bags you know like you obtain from the grocery store, something like that, about the same color of that, paper sack you get there.
Mr. BALL. Was there anything more said about the paper sack on the way into town?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; there wasn't.
Mr. BALL. What route did you take into town that day?
Mr. FRAZIER. Went down--you know, I told you I had two routes; that day I went down, you know, Fifth Street runs into Sixth after you cross the Storey Road there, so I just went on down Sixth until I come to O'Connor, and then took a left on O'Connor and it takes you right on out to Stemmons and from there I went right on into Stemmons and come up Commerce, and you go up Commerce, there until you hit Record Street, that is one block over from Houston and then I went down until I hit McKinney and then it goes right down to the warehouse and then take a left and you go right around to the parking lot.
Mr. BALL. You didn't stop any place on your way in?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Park in the parking lot?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. Where did you park in the parking lot this time?
Mr. FRAZIER. I parked in the same place the picture I showed you there.
Mr. BALL. As shown in the picture. That is Exhibit No. 361. Anything else said about curtain rods?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; there wasn't.
Mr. BALL. Anything else said about the package?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; there wasn't.
Mr. BALL. Who got out of the car first?
Mr. FRAZIER. He did.
Mr. BALL. Do you remember any conversation on the way in about anything?
Mr. FRAZIER Yes, sir; I asked him did he have fun playing with them babies and he chuckled and said he did. And so that morning I said just a few minutes after we started you know it was a cloudy day and it started misting and rain and by the time we got out on the Freeway I said, you know, how those trucks throw that grime on the windshield and finally it was getting pretty thick on there with spots of rain, and I turned on the windshield wiper and you know how grime spatters your windshield and I said. "I wish it would rain or just quit altogether, I wish it would do something to clear off the windshield," and the drops stared getting larger so eventually it cleaned off the windshield and by the time I got down to Dallas there I just turned off the windshield.
Just a few clouds, and rained a little bit to get out of it. But other than that just saying the weather was messy, that is about all.
Mr. BALL. Was it foggy?
Mr. FRAZIER No, sir; not in too particular. I say in other words, just old cloudy, dull looking day and like I say fine mist of rain and after we got a little bit further we got into larger drops.
Mr. BALL. Was there anything said about the President coming to Dallas that day?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; it wasn't.
Mr. BALL. Did he say anything about that the day before?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever have any conversation with him with reference to the President's visit to Texas?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. When you got to the parking lot who got out of the car first?
Mr. FRAZIER He did.
Mr. BALL. You didn't get out immediately then?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I was sitting there, say, looked at my watch and somewhere around 7 or 8 minutes until and I saw we had a few minutes and I sat there, and as I say you can see the Freeway, Stemmons Freeway, from the warehouse and also the trains coming back and forth and I was sitting there.
What I was doing--glanced up and watching cars for a minute but I was
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letting my engine run and getting to charge up my battery, because when you stop and start you have to charge up your battery.
Mr. BALL. Did you have your lunch beside you?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. BALL. Did you notice whether or not Lee had a package that looked like a lunch package that morning?
Mr. FRAZIER. You know like I told you earlier, I say, he didn't take his lunch because I remember right when I got in the car I asked him where was his lunch and he said he was going to buy his lunch that day.
Mr. BALL. He told you that that day, did he?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right. That is right. So, I assumed he was going to buy it, you know, from that catering service man like a lot of the boys do. They don't bring their lunch but they go out and buy their lunch there.
Mr. BALL. What did he do about the package in the back seat when he got out of the car?
Mr. FRAZIER. Like I say, I was watching the gages and watched the car for a few minutes before I cut it off.
Mr. BALL. Yes.
Mr. FRAZIER. He got out of the car and he was wearing the jacket that has the big sleeves in them and he put the package that he had, you know, that he told me was curtain rods up under his arm, you know, and so he walked down behind the car and standing over there at the end of the cyclone fence waiting for me to get out of the car, and so quick as I cut the engine off and started out of the car, shut the door just as I was starting out just like getting out of the car, he started walking off and so I followed him in.
So, eventually there he kept getting a little further ahead of me and I noticed we had plenty of time to get there because it is not too far from the Depository and usually I walk around and watch them switching the trains because you have to watch where you are going if you have to cross the tracks.
One day you go across one track and maybe there would be some cars sitting there and there would be another diesel coming there, so you have to watch when you cross the tracks, I just walked along and I just like to watch them switch the cars, so eventually he kept getting a little further ahead of me and by that time we got down there pretty close to the Depository Building there, I say, he would be as much as, I would say, roughly 50 feet in front of me but I didn't try to catch up with him because I knew I had plenty of time so I just took my time walking up there.
Mr. BALL. Did you usually walk up there together.
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; we did.
Mr. BALL. Is this the first time that he had ever walked ahead of you?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; he did.
Mr. BALL. You say he had the package under his arm when you saw him?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. You mean one end of it under the armpit?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; he had it up just like you stick it right under your arm like that.
Mr. BALL. And he had the lower part--
Mr. FRAZIER. The other part with his right hand.
Mr. BALL. Right hand?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. He carried it then parallel to his body?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right, straight up and down.
Representative FORD. Under his right arm?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did it look to you as if there was something heavy in the package?
Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I will be frank with you, I didn't pay much attention to the package because like I say before and after he told me that it was curtain rods and I didn't pay any attention to it, and he never had lied to me before so I never did have any reason to doubt his word.
Mr. BALL. Did it appear to you there was some, more than just paper he was carrying, some kind of a weight he was carrying?
Mr. FRAZIER. Well, yes, sir; I say, because one reason I know that because
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I worked in a department store before and I had uncrated curtain rods when they come in, and I know if you have seen when they come straight from the factory you know how they can bundle them up and put them in there pretty compact, so he told me it was curtain rods so I didn't think any more about the package whatsoever.
Mr. BALL. Well, from the way he carried it, the way he walked, did it appear he was carrying something that had more than the weight of a paper?
Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I say, you know like I say, I didn't pay much attention to the package other than I knew he had it under his arm and I didn't pay too much attention the way he was walking because I was walking along there looking at the railroad cars and watching the men on the diesel switch them cars and I didn't pay too much attention on how he carried the package at all.
Mr. BALL. I will show you this picture again, this map, which, is the Commission's Exhibit No. 361, and would you show us the way he walked, the course he walked from the place your car was parked up to the Texas School Book Depository. You come around here and here is a black pen. Show us the course that he walked.
Mr. FRAZIER. Like I say, I had that car parked.
Mr. BALL. Put an "X" there which will represent your car.
Mr. FRAZIER. All right (indicating).
Mr. BALL. That is where your car was parked?
Mr. FRAZIER. I would say roughly like in there, you know like the picture shows right in there.
Mr. BALL. Now, draw a line to show the way that he walked.
Mr. FRAZIER. O.K.
Mr. BALL. The direction he walked.
Mr. FRAZIER. All right. Like I say, he was standing right about there when I got out of the car so naturally he started off walking so we just come on right on just like you would come across these tracks right here, and he was coming right on along the fence like that. Just coming right on, right here now is the School Book Depository, right, so he was coming right on down this fence there and he was coming across these tracks, and standing right in here somewhere at the door.
Mr. BALL. Door?
Mr. FRAZIER. Eight.
Mr. BALL. At the end of that put a "XY", so "X" to "XY" will represent the course he walked. It shows "XY".
Mr. FRAZIER. Eight.
Mr. BALL. Then "X" to "XY" is the course he took, is that right?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. Did you go in the same door?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. BALL. You walked the same direction?
Mr. FRAZIER. Eight.
Mr. BALL. Now when he went in the door you were about 50 feet behind him?
Mr. FRAZIER Right. The last time I saw him I was right in this area coming across these railroad tracks and I just happened to glance up and see him going through the door there and shut the door.
Mr. BALL. Let's see, the last time you saw him he was at the door?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. Which is at "XY" and you were crossing the railroad, tracks on Pacific Avenue?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I say this is Houston.
Mr. BALL. Pacific runs east and west?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. Put a mark there, put a "Z" there as to your location.
Mr. FRAZIER. Right in there.
Mr. BALL. That is about where you were, a "Z" when he entered the door at "XY"?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
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Mr. BALL. Now, you went on in the Building, did you, afterwards?
FRAZIER. Right. I went on in.
Mr. BALL. Well, the first floor of the Texas School Book Depository is fairly isn't it, it is clear of partitions?
Mr. FRAZIER. Pretty well. I will say we have bins after you get so far.
Mr. BALL. Toward the middle of the floor you have bins?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. Did you see Lee as you walked in the door?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I didn't.
Mr. BALL. Here is Commission 362 which we will show you. I will put it up high so everyone can see it. There is a picture in the lower left corner which is marked "Exterior View of Entrance Door from Houston Street Loading Dock."
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. Is that the door?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. That is the door that Lee entered?
Mr. FRAZIER. That is right.
Mr. BALL And that is also the door that you entered, is that correct?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And over to the right here is the interior view of entrance door.
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. That is the same door, isn't it?
Mr. FRAZIER. Now, this door, you see right there is that door right there.
Mr. BALL. In other words, the door in the lower left-hand corner is the outside door.
FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. And as you walk through--and this is the door, the outside door, is in the picture on the lower right-hand corner?
Mr. FRAZIER. That is right, right there, that is this same door you are looking at over here.
Mr. BALL. Then there is an interior door?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. Leading into the interior that is also shown there?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. That is Sort of, what is it--a little corridor that you walk through?
Mr. FRAZIER. I say it is just about that distance from here over to that man over there.
Mr. BALL. Let's take a look there.
Mr. FRAZIER. It is called the loading zone there.
Mr. BALL. This map shows certain steps up, doesn't it?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. Where. is the door that you entered or that he entered.
Mr. FRAZIER. Right here.
Mr. BALL. That is the door. Is that covered, is that area covered with a ceiling roof?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; it is.
Mr. BALL. And this is also walled in, is it?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right. The railroad track runs along here.
Mr. BALL. After you get into this outside shed how did you get into the first floor of the Texas School Book Depository?
Mr. FRAZIER. Through that door.
Mr. BALL. Through the door there, into the interior door?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. How much of the first floor here is clear so that you can see anybody there?
Mr. FRAZIER. Roughly say, let's see, just a few feet back, you know here is the door right here.
Mr. BALL. Whose door?
Mr. FRAZIER. Mr. Shelley's.
Mr. BALL. Yes.
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Mr. FRAZIER. Just a few feet back in here is where the bins start, they run this way.
Mr. BALL. Can you mark in this where the bins start, the place?
Mr. FRAZIER. Here.
Mr. BALL. Just draw a line across, you don't need to draw in the bins but just where the bins start and we will know it is the area.
Mr. FRAZIER. Somewhere. right in here.
Mr. BALL. Draw the line clear across.
We will mark the line "A" on one side and "B" on the other so that we can refer to it.
Now, the area between, all the area shown in here from entrance to line "AB", is clear, is it?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. Now, the line from "AB" to the Elm Street side there are bins, are they?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. And are, those bins man high?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. 6, 7 feet?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. Like I say these bins, we have two or three that run across this way, like I have this line drawn, and they have broken spaces, and you can see a man on the other side of these bins because they are not sealed up in the back.
In other words, you can put books in, say, from this side and go on the other side and have another. Anyway, we have more like these window here.
Mr. BALL. The windows on Elm Street?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right. We have some bins running this way, over here, several bins, two or three over here, and two or three over here.
Mr. BALL. Is this the only entrance to the first floor of the Building, the one you have shown us?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir, it is not.
Mr. BALL. What other entrance is there?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right here is the main entrance.
Mr. BALL. The main entrance?
Mr. FRAZIER. That is right, coming on through here.
Mr. BALL. There are two entrances. There is a main entrance in the front of the Building or the Elm Street entrance, and then there is the door through which you entered the first floor, is that right?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, then we have another.
Mr. BALL. Where?
Mr. FRAZIER. Out over here, let's see if I can find it, where the garage where we have the truck. Let's see.
Mr. BALL. There is an overhead door here.
Mr. FRAZIER. I see, right through here now, I see right through this door here we come out right here and we come out in this area right in here where we have another dock right out in this area right here, in that area there.
Mr. BALL. That would be--
Mr. FRAZIER. That would be one, two, three. From this loading, like I say, where we keep the truck.
Mr. BALL. Is this overhead door usually covered, usually down closed, rather?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I say we keep it closed, and we have it here back in cold weather and we kept it closed and like I say when you go out there and get into the truck like you are going to drive the truck.
Mr. BALL. Mark an arrow that you say is the entrance or exit, mark an arrow going out.
Mr. FRAZIER. Going out.
Mr. BALL. All right.
Now, this day did you see Lee Oswald the rest of the morning?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I saw him back and forth, you know, that morning walking around, filling books and so forth, filling orders, had invoices filling orders.
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Mr. BALL. When you came in that morning to go to work where did you go first?
Mr. FRAZIER. I went like I did every morning, I went down in the basement
there and hung up my coat and put up my lunch.
Mr. BALL. Did you see Oswald down there?
Mr. FRAZIER. No; I didn't.
Mr. BALL. Then you went to work?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. How did you get to the basement?
Mr. FRAZIER. Went down through the, now over there where they have--are you familiar with the Depository Building?
Mr. BALL. Only through the map.
Mr. FRAZIER. We have the
Mr. BALL. There is the map of the first floor. Does it show the steps leading down to the basement?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. You see the one there where you have the arrow that is one entrance to the basement and that is the entrance I used the biggest part of the time, that is the one I go down.
Mr. BALL. Did you see Oswald there?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I didn't.
Mr. BALL. During the morning you say you saw Oswald around filling orders?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. BALL. Were you on the sixth floor any that morning?
Mr. FRAZIER. One time just a few seconds. I said to Mr. Shelley we had some book returns. They had sent back and he told me to count the books and make sure they were all there and put them in the space and so I took the elevator and loaded them on with a two-wheeler and so I know where they went, and I went to the shelf off the elevator and put them on the shelf and turned around and went right on down.
Mr. BALL. Were they doing some work there that day?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; they were.
Representative FORD. What time was that?
Mr. FRAZIER. When I went to put up the stock?
Representative FORD. Yes. On the sixth floor.
Mr. FRAZIER. That was sometime between 8 and 10 o'clock. I say it was the early part of the morning.
Mr. BALL. What kind of work did you notice they were doing up there?
Mr. FRAZIER. As well as I remember they were moving stock, I believe putting up some stock, straightening up the stock.
Mr. BALL. Any work done on the floor?
Mr. FRAZIER. I don't remember if they were working on the floor or not. They may have because upon the fifth floor I know we have done the fifth floor.
Mr. BALL. Do you remember the names of any workmen you saw on the sixth floor that morning you were there?
Mr. FRAZIER. I believe Billy was up there, Billy Lovelady, but so far as I can say I went and put books on the shelf and turned around and walked back and glanced up when I was coming back, I didn't stay any length of time because when we are pretty busy, some fill out orders and some doing something else and if you have a lot of orders to fill you haven't got a lot of time to sit around and be talking.
Mr. BALL. Did you see Oswald on the sixth floor any time that morning?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir. I didn't because like I say that was the only time I went up there at all that day and I was just up there for a few seconds.
Mr. BALL. Did you talk to him any that morning?
Mr. FRAZIER. I don't believe I did much unless he asked me something about a book like I told you, and I was always willing to help anybody I can.
Mr. BALL. Now, you knew that the President was going to pass that building sometime that morning, didn't you?
Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I heard he would.
Mr. BALL. Did you talk to some of the men around there about it?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I didn't.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever talk to Oswald about that?
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Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I didn't.
Mr. BALL. What time did you knock off for lunch?
Mr. FRAZIER. 12.
Mr. BALL. Did you eat your lunch?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; not right then I didn't. I say, you know, he was supposed to come by during our lunch hour so you don't get very many chances to see the President of the United States and being an old Texas boy, and [he] never having been down to Texas very much I went out there to see him and just like everybody else was, I was standing on the steps there and watched for the parade to come by and so I did and I stood there until he come by.
Mr. BALL. You went out there after you quit work?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right, for lunch.
Mr. BALL. About 12 o'clock?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. And you hadn't eaten your lunch up to that time?
Mr. FRAZIER, No.
Mr. BALL. Did you go out there with somebody?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. BALL. Who did you go out there with?
Mr. FRAZIER. I stayed around there pretty close to Mr. Shelley and this boy Billy Lovelady and just standing there, people talking and just talking about how pretty a day it turned out to be, because I told you earlier it was an old cloudy and misty day and then it didn't look like it was going to be a pretty day at all.
Mr. BALL. And it turned out to be a good day?
Mr. FRAZIER. Pretty sunshiny day.
Mr. BALL. Warm?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; it was pretty warm.
Mr. BALL. Then let's see, there was Billy Lovelady and you were there.
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. Anybody else you can remember?
Mr. FRAZIER. There was a lady there, a heavy-set lady who worked upstairs there whose name is Sarah something, I don't know her last name.
Mr. BALL. Were you near the steps?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I was, I was standing about, I believe, one step down from the top there.
Mr. BALL. One step down from the top of the steps?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; standing there by the rail.
Mr. BALL. By steps we are talking about the steps of the entrance to the Building?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Shown in this picture?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Which is Commission's Exhibit No. 362. Can you come over here and show us about where you were standing?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. Like I told you this was an entrance right here.
Mr. BALL. Yes, sir.
Mr. FRAZIER. We have a bar rail running about half way up here. This was the first step and I was standing right around there.
Mr. BALL. Put a mark there. Your name is Frazier, put an "F" there for Frazier.
Mr. FRAZIER. O.K.
Mr. BALL. In the picture that would show you about there, would it?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; you can see, just see, the top, about the top rail there, was standing right in there.
Mr. BALL. Right in there?
Mr. FRAZIER. To be frank with you, I say, shadow from the roof there knocked the sun from out our eyes, you wouldn't have any glare in the eyes standing there.
Mr. BALL. There was a roof over your head, was there?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. Did you stand there for 30 minutes or--tell us how long you stayed there?
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Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I stood there until the parade come by.
Mr. BALL. Did you see the President go by?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. BALL. Did you hear anything?
Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I say, just right after he went by he hadn't hardly got by, I heard a sound and if you have ever been around motorcycles you know how they backfire, and so I thought one of them motorcycles backfired because right before his car came down, now there were several of these motorcycle policemen, and they took off down toward the underpass down there, and so I thought, you know, that one of them motorcycles backfired, but it wasn't just a few seconds that, you know, I heard two more of the same type of, you know, sounds, and by that time people was running everywhere, and falling down and screaming, and naturally then I knew something was wrong, and so I come to the conclusion somebody else, somebody was shooting at somebody and I figured it was him.
Mr. BALL. You figured it was who?
Mr. FRAZIER. I figured it was somebody shooting at President Kennedy because people were running and hollering so I just stood still. I have always been taught when something like that happened or anywhere as far as that it is always best to stand still because if you run that makes you look guilty sure enough.
Mr. BALL. Now, then, did you have any impression at that time as to the direction from which the sound came?
Mr. FRAZIER. Well, to be frank with you I thought it come from down there, you know, where that underpass is. There is a series, quite a few number, of them railroad tracks running together and from where I was standing it sounded like it was coming from down the railroad tracks there.
Mr. BALL. Were you able to see the President, could you still see the President's car when you heard the first sound?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I couldn't. From there, you know, people were standing out there on the curb, you see, and you know it drops, you know the ground drops, off there as you go down toward that underpass and I couldn't see any of it because people were standing up there in my way, but however, when he did turn that corner there, there wasn't anybody standing there in the street and you could see good there, but after you got on past down there you couldn't see anything.
Mr. BALL. You didn't see the President's car at the time you heard the sound?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I didn't.
Mr. BALL. But you stood right there, did you?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right. Stood right where I was.
Mr. BALL. And Mr. Shelley was still standing there?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. And also Billy Lovelady?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. The three of you didn't go any place?
Mr. FRAZIER. I believe Billy and them walked down toward that direction but I didn't. I just stood where I was. I hadn't moved at all.
Mr. BALL. Did you see anybody after that come into the Building while you were there?
Mr. FRAZIER. You mean somebody other that didn't work there?
Mr. BALL. A police officer.
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I stood there a few minutes, you know, and some people who worked there; you know normally started to go back into the Building because a lot of us didn't eat our lunch, and so we stared back into the Building and it wasn't but just a few minutes that there were a lot of police officers and so forth all over the Building there.
Mr. BALL. Then you went back into the Building, did you?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. And before you went back into the Building no police officer came up the steps and into the building?
Mr. FRAZIER. Not that I know. They could walk by the way and I was standing there talking to somebody else and didn't see it.
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Mr. BALL. Did anybody say anything about what had happened, did you hear anybody say anything about the President had been shot?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; right before I went back, some girl who had walked down a little bit further where I was standing on the steps, and somebody come back and said somebody had shot President Kennedy.
Mr. BALL. Do you know who it was who told you that?
Mr. FRAZIER. Sir?
Mr. BALL. Do you know who the girl was who told you that?
Mr. FRAZIER. She didn't tell me right directly but she just came back and more or less in a low kind of hollering she just told several people.
Mr. BALL. Then you went back into the Building, did you?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. And police officers came in there?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I would say by the time, you know some of us went back in, and it wasn't just a few minutes, I say there were several.
Mr. BALL. Did you stay on the first floor?
Mr. FRAZIER. Well, stayed on the first floor there for a few minutes and I hadn't eaten my lunch so I had my lunch down there in the basement and I went down there to get my lunch and eat it and I walked back up on the first floor there.
Mr. BALL. When you came back into the Building, you came in the front door, didn't you?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right
Mr. BALL. Did you go down to the basement immediately or did you stand around on the first floor?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I stood around for several minutes there, you know, and then, you know, eventually the ones who hadn't eaten their lunch, some of them had taken their lunch outside.
Mr. BALL. Did other people go downstairs with you?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; they didn't.
Mr. BALL. You went down alone, did you?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you go at any time in the back end of the Building back near the door to the loading dock?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I never did.
Mr. BALL. Perhaps I had better ask you to point out on the map here where you were. Come over here, please.
Mr. FRAZIER. O.K.
Mr. BALL. You came in back into the Building?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. Tell us where you went and what you did?
Mr. FRAZIER. Well, you know like I said I come back through here [indicating on Commission Exhibit No. 362, diagram of first floor].
Mr. BALL. By "coming back through here," you mean you came down the hallway and into the entrance into the first floor warehouse?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right, and you come by Mr. Shelley's office, that is his counter right here, after you get in, you get off here, that is his office, anyway, right out, I come out around here, you know where several of the people walked around here.
Mr. BALL. That is in the bin area?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; the bins don't start automatically right up in here. I say, there is a little bit more or less, like more or less a hall through here, but anyway, you know, I say, you have two or three bins.
Mr. BALL. Through here you mean there is sort of a hall after you enter into the warehouse?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. Right.
Mr. FRAZIER. From it, after you come past this counter you have several rows of bins coming this way, but, I say, right after you get past, say, this last bin right here running that way, right out this general area right here you have a telephone and everything out in here.
Mr. BALL. Well, you indicated that everything that would be beyond this line, the bin lines, would be clear on the first floor.
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Mr. FRAZIER. Right, beyond here.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever go into that area where it was clear before you went downstairs?
From the time you came back into the room, did you go down into this area which was clear before you went downstairs?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I didn't go in here. I was right over right close to Mr. Shelley's office right around here and sit around and talked with some guys around there.
Mr. BALL. You are indicating around Mr. Shelley's office?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; pretty close right there, like I say more or less right out over in here we have a--
Mr. BALL. Put a mark there.
Mr. FRAZIER. Let's see--
Mr. BALL. Put a circle to show the general area where you and the rest of them stood around and talked.
Mr. FRAZIER. Right in there is right around near the telephone and we were just right around in there.
Mr. BALL. Where did you go?
Mr. FRAZIER. We left, you know, after we stood and talked with some guys there, some of them had eaten and some of them didn't, some of them had sandwiches in their hands, so naturally I felt like eating and I walked around the bin and walked down the steps there.
Mr. BALL. Got your lunch?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. Come back up?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I didn't come back up. I was sitting eating my lunch. I looked at my watch and didn't have but 10 minutes, so I naturally ate faster than normal, so I was eating a couple of sandwiches, and eat an apple or something and come right back up and the guys, the people who worked there, standing around on the first floor, some of them eating their lunches and others merely talking.
Mr. BALL. You never went back to work?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; we didn't. I didn't work any more that day.
Mr. BALL. You stayed there on the job until you were told to go home?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What time did they tell you to go home?
Mr. FRAZIER. It was between 1 and 2 there sometime, roughly, I don't know what time it was.
Mr. BALL. Had the police officers come in there and talked to you?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; they come in and talked to all of us. They asked us to show our proper identification, and then they had us to write our name down and who to get in touch with if they wanted to see us.
Mr. BALL. Did they ask you where you had been at the time the President passed?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; they had. I told them I was out on the steps there.
Mr. BALL. Asked you who you were with?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I told them and naturally Mr. Shelley and Billy vouched for me and so they didn't think anything about it.
Mr. BALL. Did you hear anybody around there asking for Lee Oswald?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I didn't.
Mr. BALL. At any time before you went home, did you hear anybody ask for Lee?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I don't believe they did, because they, you know, like one man showed us, we had to give proper identification and after we passed him he told us to walk on then to the next man, and we, you know, put down proper information where he could be found if they wanted to see you and talk to you any more, and then we went on up to a little bit more to the front entrance more toward Mr. Shelley's office there with another man and stood there for a little while and told us all that was there could go ahead and go home.
Mr. BALL. Then you went on home?
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] Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Representative FORD. Did all this occur after you had finished your lunch?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; it did.
Representative FORD. Did it ever occur to you at any time following the shooting there was something connecting the shooting with Lee Oswald and the package?
Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I say not particularly not at that time, I didn't think anything about it because, to be frank with you, some were over here, one or two would be over here talking and just strung out here, on the first floor and I didn't think anything about it. I see some of the guys, they go out for lunch and they come back 12:45 so I didn't know whether he had went out to lunch or not. Some of them do every week.
Representative FORD. Did any of the policemen interfere with your efforts to go into the Building and eventually down into the basement where you had your lunch?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; they didn't.
Mr. BALL. Before you left, did you look for Oswald to see about taking him home?
Mr. FRAZIER. No; I didn't, sir.
Mr. BALL. Was there some reason why you didn't?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I did. Because like I told you, he was going home to get the curtain rods and I asked him at the time, the same time, it would be about that, would he be going home with me Friday afternoon like he had been doing, he said no. So naturally when they let us go I took on off because I thought maybe they had already dismissed him and he went on home.
Mr. BALL. When you talked to him on Thursday and he told you he wouldn't be going home on Friday, did he tell you what he was going to do, why he wasn't going to go home?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he didn't.
Mr. BALL. Did you talk to him again on Friday morning as to whether or not he had changed his mind? Did you ask him whether or not you could pick him up at the end of the day?
Mr. FRAZIER. To be frank with you, Mr. Ball, I am not sure.
Mr. BALL. Whether you did or not.
Did anybody tell you that Lee Oswald was missing before you went home?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; they didn't.
Representative FORD. Could you describe for the Commission where you went on the sixth floor that morning in relationship to the overall picture of the sixth floor?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I could.
Representative FORD. Would you do so, please?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.
Do you have a piece of paper I can draw? [Witness draws diagram on piece of paper.]
Let's see, right here is your two elevator shafts we have. That morning I used this one over here.
Representative FORD. Would you mark Houston, Elm and the other streets?
Mr. FRAZIER. This is Houston, this is Elm right out here. Anyway, like I said, I won't draw these buildings. I have these two elevator shafts here. Quickly you come off these elevator shafts right here, we have skids with books on them, and you see right on those skids you would have some shelves right about like this and so I merely walked over to the elevator with the two-wheeler we use on the dock and walked somewhere say maybe halfway, not quite halfway, there and put up some books, put them down on the floor there, on the floor level and so I just turned around and come back to the elevator and come on down, and went about my business. He had me putting up some books there on the shelves.
Representative FORD. From this point here could you see the windows or the area at the corner of Houston and Elm in the Building?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; you could. I say you could look down and see this area back over here.
Representative FORD. Did you look over there?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I didn't.
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Right on down there, I knew where the books went so normally I didn't have to look around. I say, I was going to get through, if you are not familiar with the books and so forth it would take you a little longer to find and put them up. But if you know where they go you can put them up very quickly.
So I knew this book went in the shelf because this book we don't handle very many of them and that is where I put books you don't handle very many, put them in the shelf.
So I put the books in the shelf and turned around and put them in the elevator and come on down.
Mr. BALL. Can I have this marked as Commission Exhibit 368, the diagram just drawn by the witness to illustrate his work on the sixth floor?
The CHAIRMAN. It may be marked.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 368, for identification.)
Mr. BALL. I have here Commission's 163, a gray blue jacket. Do you recognize this jacket?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I don't.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever see Lee Oswald wear this jacket?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I don't believe I have.
Mr. BALL. Commission Exhibit No. 162, which can be described for the record as a gray jacket with zipper, have you seen Lee Oswald wear this jacket?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I haven't.
Mr. BALL. I have here Commission 150, which is described as sort of a rust brown shirt. Have you ever seen Lee Oswald wear this shirt? It has a hole in the sleeve near the elbow.
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I don't believe I have because most time I noticed when Lee had it, I say he put off his shirt and just wear a T-shirt the biggest part of the time so really what shirt he wore that day I really didn't see it or didn't pay enough attention to it whether he did have a shirt on.
Mr. BALL. On that day you did notice one article of clothing, that is, he had a jacket?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What color was the jacket?
Mr. FRAZIER. It was a gray, more or less flannel, wool-looking type of jacket that I had seen him wear and that is the type of jacket he had on that morning.
Mr. BALL. Did it have a zipper on it?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; it was one of the zipper types.
Mr. BALL. It isn't one of these two zipper jackets we have shown?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Do you know what kind of trousers he had on, what color?
Mr. FRAZIER. Not that day, I don't remember.
Mr. BALL. You wouldn't remember that day?
Mr. FRAZIER. I had seen him wear some gray ones before.
Mr. BALL. Here is Commission's Exhibit No. 157 which are gray trousers. Had you ever seen him wear these?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; to be frank with you, I had seen something more or less of that order, that type of material, but so far as that, being sure that, was his pants or some of his clothes, I couldn't be sure.
Mr. BALL. Here is Commission No. 156 which is a pair of gray trousers. Did you ever see him wear trousers of that type?
Mr. FRAZIER. Not that I know of.
Mr. BALL. You are not able to tell us then anything or are you able to tell us, describe any of the clothing he had on that day, except this gray jacket?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. That is the only thing you can remember?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. I have here a paper sack which is Commission's Exhibit 364. That gray jacket you mentioned, did it have any design in it?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Was it light or dark gray?
Mr. FRAZIER. It was light gray.
Mr. BALL. You mentioned it was woolen.
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Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Long sleeves?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Buttoned sleeves at the wrist, or do you remember?
Mr. FRAZIER. To be frank with you, I didn't notice that much about the jacket, but I had seen him wear that gray woolen jacket before.
Mr. BALL. You say it had a zipper on it?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Now we have over here this exhibit for identification which is 364 which is a paper sack made out of tape, sort of a home made affair. Will you take a look at this. Does this appear to be anything like the color of the sack you saw on the back seat?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I would say it was, it was more a color like this.
Mr. BALL. It was more like this color, correct?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Did it have tape on it or did you notice it?
Mr. FRAZIER. Well, like I say, I didn't notice that much about it as I didn't see it very much.
Mr. BALL. Will you take a look at it as to the length. Does it appear to be about the same length?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. We will just use this. Was one end of the sack turned over, folded over? Do you remember that?
Mr. FRAZIER. Well, you know, like I was saying, when I glanced at it, but I say from what I saw I didn't see very much of it, I say the bag wasn't open or anything like it where you can see the contents. If you was going to say putting--to more or less a person putting in carefully he would throw it in carefully, you put it more toward the back. If he had anything folded up in it I didn't see that.
Mr. BALL. When you saw him get out of the car, when you first saw him when he was out of the car before he started to walk, you noticed he had the package under the arm?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. One end of it was under the armpit and the other he had to hold it in his right hand. Did the package extend beyond the right hand?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir. Like I say if you put it under your armpits and put it down normal to the side.
Mr. BALL. But the right hand on, was it on the end or the side of the package?
Mr. FRAZIER. No; he had it cupped in his hand.
Mr. BALL. Cupped in his hand?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. Take a look at this paper bag which is Commission Exhibit 364 for identification, with reference to the width.
Was the bag about that width or a different width?
Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I would say it appears to me it would be pretty close but it might be just a little bit too wide. I think it is, because you know yourself you would have to have a big hand with that size but like I say he had this cupped in his hand because I remember glancing at him when he was a walking up ahead of me.
Mr. BALL. This is another bag here which has been marked Commission's Exhibit 142. But I don't see the stamp on it. This is FBI No. 10. This was shown to you before, wasn't it, in Dallas?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; it was.
Mr. BALL. You were asked if you had seen this before, weren't you?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I was.
Mr. BALL. When you first saw it, you felt that the bag you saw was of a different color, didn't you?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right, and I say they told me this one had been treated in the lab.
Mr. BALL. If you will note there is a part of this bag which has not been treated.
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes.
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Mr. BALL. So I will show you this part of this exhibit that hasn't been treated, and tell me whether or not the paper, the color of the paper that has not been treated, is or is not similar to the color of the paper on the bag you saw on the back seat of your car that morning.
(At this point, Senator Cooper entered the hearing room.)
Mr. FRAZIER. To be frank with you, more like I say the color, the color I saw would be more like it but I imagine if this hadn't been run through that process that this color here that you unwrapped would be more closer to this. This seems to have a little bit different color to me.
Mr. BALL. I didn't get the answer because of the let's refer to this bag, that is the colored bag.
Mr. FRAZIER. Okay, sir.
Mr. BALL. And the bag that is not colored, and the other is just a bag.
Mr. FRAZIER. Okay, sir.
Mr. BALL. We are talking about the colored bag, the one that has changed its color. There is a part of the colored bag that hasn't changed color, isn't it?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. That is the part I want to call your attention to.
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. The color of this bag, the colored bag, has not been treated. Take a look at it. Is that similar to the color of the bag you saw in the back seat of your car that morning?
Mr. FRAZIER. It would be, surely it could have been, and it couldn't have been. Like I say, see, you know this color, either one of these colors, is very similar to the type of paper that you can get out of a store or anything like that, and so I say it could have been and then it couldn't have been.
Mr. BALL. Do you mean by that that it is similar to the color?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. And do you have a definite memory of the color of the bag you saw on the back seat of your car so that you can distinguish between one color and another?
Mr. FRAZIER. I believe it would be more on this basis here.
Mr. BALL. You say it would be more on the color of bag No. 364, is that right?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. You will notice that this bag which is the colored bag, FBI Exhibit No. 10, is folded over. Was it folded over when you saw it the first time, folded over to the end?
Mr. FRAZIER. I will say I am not sure about that, whether it was folded over or not, because, like I say, I didn't pay that much attention to it.
Mr. BALL. This is Commission Exhibit No. 142.
The CHAIRMAN. That is the dark bag?
Mr. BALL. The dark bag is Commission Exhibit No. 142.
When you were shown this bag, do you recall whether or not you told the officers who showed you the bag--did you tell them whether you thought it was or was not about the same length as the bag you saw on the back seat?
Mr. FRAZIER. I told them that as far as the length there, I told them that was entirely too long.
Mr. BALL. What about the width?
Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I say, like I say now, now I couldn't see much of the bag from him walking in front of me. Now he could have had some of it sticking out in front of his hands because I didn't see it from the front, The only time I did see it was from the back, just a little strip running down from your arm and so therefore, like that, I say, I know that the bag wouldn't be that long.
So far as being that wide like I say I couldn't be sure.
Mr. BALL. It could have been that wide?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. Now, you said that some of the bag might have been beyond his hands, did you say?
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Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I said it could have, now I am not saying it was.
Mr. BALL. In other words, it could have been longer than his hands?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. It has been suggested that you take this bag, which is the colored bag, Commission Exhibit No. 142, and put it under your arm just as a sample, or just to show about how he carried the bag.
Mr. FRAZIER. Okay.
Mr. BALL. Put it under your armpit.
Mr. FRAZIER. Like that, normally your hand would come down like that and you would say, you would have an item, like you have seen people carry items like they would be walking along and your arm would come down like that, just like --
Mr. BALL. But are you sure that his hand was at the end of the package or at the side of the package?
Mr. FRAZIER. Like I said, I remember I didn't look at the package very much, paying much attention, but when I did look at it he did have his hands on the package like that.
Mr. BALL. But you said a moment ago you weren't sure whether the package was longer or shorter.
Mr. FRAZIER. And his hands because I couldn't see that about the package.
Mr. BALL. By that, do you mean that you don't know whether the package extended beyond his hands?
Mr. FRAZIER. This way?
Mr. BALL. No; lengthwise, toward his feet.
Mr. FRAZIER. No; now I don't mean that.
Mr. BALL. What do you mean?
Mr. FRAZIER. What I was talking about, I said I didn't know where it extended. It could have or couldn't have, out this way, widthwise not lengthwise.
Mr. BALL. In other words, you say it could have been wider than your original estimate?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. But you don't think it was longer than his hands?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. How tall are you?
Mr. FRAZIER. I am 6-foot, a little bit over 6-foot.
Mr. BALL. Do you know what your arm length is?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I don't.
Mr. BALL. We can probably measure it before you leave.
Did you ever see Lee taking home anything with him from the Texas Book Depository Building?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; never did.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever see him taking a package home with him?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. When was the last time you can remember you saw Lee?
Mr. FRAZIER. You mean on the 22d?
Mr. BALL. On the 22d, that day.
Mr. FRAZIER. Somewhere between it was after 10 and somewhere before noon, because I remember I was walking down to the first floor that day, that was the only time I went up on the elevator was, like I say, for a few minutes and, I put that box of books up and put it down, and I was on the first floor putting up books all day and I seen him back and forth and he would be walking and getting books and put on the order.
Mr. BALL. That was the last time you saw him all day?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right
Mr. BALL. You didn't talk to him again?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I didn't.
Mr. BALL. Did you wear a coat or jacket to work that morning?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. BALL. It was chilly, was it?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; it was.
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Mr. BALL. When you stood out on the front looking at the parade, where was Shelley standing and where was Lovelady standing with reference to you?
Mr. FRAZIER. Well, see, I was standing, like I say, one step down from the top, and Mr. Shelley was standing, you know, back from the top step and over toward the side of the wall there. See, he was standing right over there, and then Billy was a couple of steps down from me over toward more the wall also.
Mr. BALL. Usually when Lee walked in the Building in the morning, when you came to work with him where did he go, do you know?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir. He just walked in, say, like inside the Building, and like I say I always went and put my lunch up and hang my jacket or coat up, whichever I wore, and he was usually around there on the first floor there after some of them put their lunch in the refrigerator, so far as that I never paid too much attention to what he usually did.
Mr. BALL. You usually walked in together?
Mr. FRAZIER. That is right, sir.
Mr. BALL. And you separated after you got in there?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; after we got into the interior I just went and put my lunch up.
Mr. BALL. Did you notice where Lee kept his lunch?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I didn't.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever see him come into the Building on other days than the days that he rode with you?
Mr. FRAZIER. You mean did I ever see him come in the Building when he rode with me?
Mr. BALL. Yes.
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; because when he rode with me we always walked together.
Mr. BALL. No; other than when he rode with you.
Mr. FRAZIER. Oh, other than when he rode with me. No, sir; I didn't.
The CHAIRMAN. Did he have any particular associates around there that you knew of?
Mr. FRAZIER. Not that I knew of. I say he didn't mingle with other guys like the rest of us. The rest of us usually joked back and forth with practically everybody who worked around there. But he usually kept to himself, that was the only time he talked to anybody was when he wanted to know something about a book or something like that.
Mr. BALL. We have got a picture taken the day of the parade and it shows the President's car going by.
Now, take a look at that picture. Can you see your picture any place there?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I don't, because I was back up in this more or less black area here.
Mr. BALL. I see.
Mr. FRAZIER. Because Billy, like I say, is two or three steps down in front of me.
Mr. BALL. Do you recognize this fellow?
Mr. FRAZIER. That is Billy, that is Billy Lovelady.
Mr. BALL. Billy?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right
Mr. BALL. Let's take a marker and make an arrow down that way. That mark is Billy Lovelady?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. That is where you told us you were standing a moment ago.
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. In front of you to the right over to the wall?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Is this a Commission exhibit?
We will make this a Commission Exhibit No. 369.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 369 for identification.)
Mr. BALL. That is written in. The arrow marks Billy Lovelady on Commission's Exhibit No. 369.
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The CHAIRMAN. Do you have any lockers there in which you put your clothes, and so forth?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; we don't.
(At this point, Representative Ford withdrew from the hearing room.)
Mr. FRAZIER. Some boys hang their jackets up in there in that little domino room where they were going to play dominoes. But here lately, I have been wondering, you know, most of us wear our jackets, what we have on, because if you are going out there on a dock in the cold air we usually keep them on.
The CHAIRMAN. I see.
Mr. BALL. On Thursday afternoon when you went home, drove on home, did he carry any package with him?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he didn't
Mr. BALL. Did he have a jacket or coat on him?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What kind of a jacket or coat did he have?
Mr. FRAZIER. That, you know, like I say gray jacket.
Mr. BALL. That same gray jacket?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. Now, I can be frank with you, I had seen him wear that jacket several times, because it is cool type like when you keep a jacket on all day, if you are working on outside or something like that, you wouldn't go outside with just a plain shirt on.
Mr. BALL. I have no further questions.
The CHAIRMAN. Senator, have you any questions you would like to ask? I think that is all. Does anybody else have any questions to ask? Do you have any questions?
Mr. BALL. Mr. Frazier, we have here this Exhibit No. 364 which is a sack and in that we have put a dismantled gun. Don't pay any attention to that. Will you stand up here and put this under your arm and then take a hold of it at the side?
Now, is that anywhere near similar to the way that Oswald carried the package?
Mr. FRAZIER. Well, you know, like I said now, I said I didn't pay much attention--
Mr. BALL. Turn around.
Mr. FRAZIER. I didn't pay much attention, but when I did, I say, he had this part down here, like the bottom would be short he had cupped in his hand like that and, say, like walking from the back if you had a big arm jacket there you wouldn't tell much from a package back there, the physical features. If you could see it from the front like when you walk and meet somebody you could tell about the package, but walking from behind you couldn't tell much about the package whatsoever about the width.
But he didn't carry it from the back. If this package were shorter he would have it cupped in his hands.
The CHAIRMAN. Could he have had the top of it behind his shoulder, or are you sure it was cupped under his shoulder there?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; because the way it looked, you know, like I say, he had it cupped in his hand.
The CHAIRMAN. I beg your pardon?
Mr. FRAZIER. I said from where I noticed he had it cupped in his hands. And I don't see how you could have it anywhere other than under your armpit because if you had it cupped in your hand it would stick over it.
Mr. BALL. Could he have carried it this way?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir. Never in front here. Like that. Now, that is what I was talking to you about. No, I say he couldn't because if he had you would have seen the package sticking up like that.
From what I seen walking behind he had it under his arm and you couldn't tell that he had a package from the back.
Mr. BALL. When you cupped the bottom of your package in the hands, will you stand up, again, please, and the upper part of the package is not under the armpit, the top of the package extends almost up to the level of your ear.
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. Or your eye level, and when you put the package under your armpit, the upper part of the package, and take a hold of the side of it with your right
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hand, it extends on approximately about 8 inches, about the span of my hand, more than 8 inches, 8, 10 inches.
Mr. FRAZIER. If you were using a yardstick or one of these little--
Mr. BALL. I was using my hand.
Mr. FRAZIER. I know you were, but there are some different means to measure it. I will say it varies, if you use a yardstick. You can go and measure something with a tape measure, with a yardstick and come up with a different measurement altogether, maybe a quarter of an inch shorter or longer.
Mr. BALL. I was asked, there was some uncertainty in your testimony as to the direction from which you heard the shots fired. Let's see if we can illustrate it.
You heard the shots fired and you expressed an opinion that it came from a certain direction. I would like to clear that up, if I could, on this map.
Here is the Texas School Book Depository Building, and you were standing right here, you said, weren't you? Can you tell me?
Mr. FRAZIER. You know the entrance there is not quite at that corner.
Mr. BALL. That close.
Now, you say you heard these three sounds which you later thought were probably shots, you thought it came from a certain direction.
Can you tell us from what direction as illustrated on the map?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right. Now I say, you know where it is the straight curve that goes under the underpass.
Mr. BALL. That is the parkway?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right. I say it runs over this parkway, you don't have it on here--anyway, I say these railroad tracks there is a series of them that come up over this, up over this overpass there, and from where I was standing, I say, it is my true opinion, that is what I thought, it sounded like it came from over there, in the railroad tracks.
Mr. BALL. That would be east and south?
Mr. FRAZIER. No; that would be west and south.
Mr. BALL. West and south?
Mr. FRAZIER. No; it would be north.
Mr. BALL. No; it wouldn't be north.
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; it wouldn't be south because that is in that direction.
Mr. BALL. This is north, and you say it, I believe, it came from north?
Mr. FRAZIER. It would be more or less west and north were these tracks from this overpass.
Mr. BALL. Your direction was west and north as the source of the sound.
Well, take a look at the map that does show the overpass and you will put a mark on that.
Did any other people who were standing there with you express any opinion as to where they thought the sounds came from?
Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I say, after we found out it was shots I see some of the other people around there said when they were staying there, said that is what it was, downward right back from us, like where we were standing. If we had been standing somewhere else you might have gotten a different opinion, but from where we were standing on the steps there it sounded like back down to the right.
Mr. BALL. Here is a Commission Exhibit, No. 347. It is an aerial
photograph, and it shows the Texas School Book Depository Building.
Mr. FRAZIER. Here is the Depository Building here.
Mr. BALL. That is right, sir. Here is the parkway.
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. Here are the overpasses here.
Can you show us on that map where you think--will that map--can you on that map indicate the general direction from which you thought the sounds came from?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; because we were standing right here.
Mr. BALL. Don't mark it up right now.
Mr. FRAZIER. Right. But what I am trying to say is we were standing down there, and back over here, this over here is more or less a knoll, and you can look over there and see this. You see this furthest left line that curved around
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here is the ones we take to come out on Stemmons Expressway, and this is a high knoll up here which runs where the tracks are, from standing there it sounded like it came from this general area over here.
Mr. BALL. Just mark on that if you can, if you can mark a source.
Mr. FRAZIER. This is where it is.
Mr. BALL. Mark a circle.
Mr. FRAZIER. I would say just like over in here.
Mr. BALL. Let's make it a little heavier. In that general direction?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. That was just part of the knoll.
Mr. BALL. The circle marked on No. 347, we will identify it with an "F," the circle marked "F" represents the direction, general direction, of a source of sound as you--as occurred to you as you stood on the front steps of the Texas Book Depository Building, is that right?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. I have no further questions.
The CHAIRMAN. Anything from you, Senator?
Well, that will be all. Thank you very much for coming and testifying before the Commission.
Mr. FRAZIER. Thank you, Mr. Warren.
The CHAIRMAN. All right, bring in the next witness. The Commission will be in order.
Mrs. Randle, I will just read you a brief statement of the purpose of our meeting today.
The purpose of today's hearing is to hear the testimony of Buell Wesley Frazier and Linnie Mae Randle. The Commission has been advised that these two witnesses have stated that they saw Lee Harvey Oswald on the morning of November 22, 1963. The Commission proposes to ask these witnesses questions concerning their knowledge of the assassination of President Kennedy.
You have a copy of that, do you not?
Very well, Mr. Ball will conduct the examination.
Will you rise and be sworn, please?
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you give before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mrs. RANDLE. Yes. sir.
The CHAIRMAN. Please be seated.
Mr. Ball?