Testimony Of Harry N. Olsen
Mr SPECTER. May the record show that this deposition proceeding of the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy is being held at the U.S. Post Office Building, 312 North Spring Street, Los Angeles, Calif., in room 644, which is the room customarily used for the grand Jury proceedings.
May the record further show that it is now 2:50 p.m. Pacific daylight time on Thursday, August 6, 1964. Present is Mr. Harry Olsen, who has appeared in response to a letter notification to appear for this deposition.
Mr. Olsen, did you receive a letter from the President's Commission with an insertion of the Executive order creating the Commission and the rules and regulations for taking of depositions?
Mr OLSEN. Yes.
Mr SPECTER. And when did you receive that letter?
Mr OLSEN. Five or six days ago.
Mr SPECTER. Did you notice that there was a provision in the rules and regulations that you could have counsel with you if you so desired at the present time?
Mr OLSEN. Yes, sir.
Mr SPECTER. Do you wish to have counsel with you?
Mr OLSEN. I don't think it's necessary.
Mr SPECTER. Fine. The Commission has asked you to appear, Mr. Olsen, in order to testify about any knowledge which you have concerning Mr. Jack Ruby and the shooting of Mr. Lee Harvey Oswald and the assassination of President Kennedy. With that preliminary statement of purpose, I would like you to stand up and raise your right hand, if you would.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you shall give in this deposition proceeding before the President's Commission shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr OLSEN. Yes.
Mr SPECTER. Would you state your full name for the record, please?
Mr OLSEN. Harry N. Olsen.
Mr SPECTER. What is your address at the present time, Mr. Olsen?
Mr OLSEN. 315 Obispo in Long Beach.
Mr SPECTER. What is your date of birth?
Mr OLSEN. February the 16, 1934.
Mr SPECTER. Where were you born?
Mr OLSEN. Wichita Falls, Tex.
Mr SPECTER. Outline briefly your educational background.
Mr OLSEN. Four years of high school, two and a half years of college.
Mr SPECTER. What college did you attend?
Mr OLSEN. Midwestern University.
Mr SPECTER. And when did you leave Midwestern University?
Mr OLSEN. 1954.
Mr SPECTER. What were your activities after leaving Midwestern University, by way of subsequent employment?
Mr OLSEN. The Army, 1954 to 1956, and working for my Dad.
Mr SPECTER. For how long did you work for your Dad?
Mr OLSEN. Oh, since I was 16.
Mr SPECTER. Well, from 1956 on how long did you work for him?
Mr OLSEN. About a year.
Mr SPECTER. What type of work was that?
Mr OLSEN. Leather goods.
Mr SPECTER. Was that in Wichita Falls, Tex.?
Mr OLSEN. That was in Henrietta, Tex.
Mr SPECTER. What did you do after terminating your employment with your father in about 1957 then?
Mr OLSEN. I went to Dallas.
Mr SPECTER. And what was your occupation in Dallas?
Mr OLSEN. A claims investigator for an insurance company.
Mr SPECTER. How long were you so employed?
Mr OLSEN. Oh, 7 or 8 months.
Mr SPECTER. What did you next do for a living?
Mr OLSEN. I worked for a finance company.
Mr SPECTER. How long were you employed by the finance company?
Mr OLSEN. About 8 months.
Mr SPECTER. And what was your next occupation?
Mr OLSEN. Dallas Police Department.
Mr SPECTER. What was your rank in the police department?
Mr OLSEN. Patrolman.
Mr SPECTER. And how long were you employed by the Dallas Police Department?
Mr OLSEN. Five and a haft years.
Mr SPECTER. When did you end your employment with the Dallas Police Department?
Mr OLSEN. In the latter part of December, 1963.
Mr SPECTER. And how were you employed after December of 1963?
Mr OLSEN. I left Dallas and came to California and am working for a collection agency.
Mr SPECTER. Have you held that same job from -the time you first arrived here in Los Angeles until the present time?
Mr OLSEN. Yes, sir.
Mr SPECTER. Are you married or single, Mr. Olsen?
Mr OLSEN. Married.
Mr SPECTER. And what is the name of your wife?
Mr OLSEN. Kay.
Mr SPECTER. And what was her name prior to her marriage to you?
Mr OLSEN. Kay Coleman.
Mr SPECTER. What was her occupation prior to being married to you, that is where was she employed?
Mr OLSEN. She was employed at the Carousel Club.
Mr SPECTER. When were you and Mrs. Kay Olsen married?
Mr OLSEN. I believe it was December. It could have been January.
Mr SPECTER. December of what year?
Mr OLSEN. 1963, or January of 1964.
Mr SPECTER. Do you know Jack Ruby?
Mr OLSEN. Yes.
Mr SPECTER. When did you fir. st become acquainted with Mr. Jack Ruby?
Mr OLSEN. Oh, about 3 years ago.
Mr SPECTER. What were the circumstances of your making his acquaintance?
Mr OLSEN. I was with the police department at the time and I was working that area where his club was, and it was a routine check of his place.
Mr SPECTER. How did you and Jack Ruby get along during the time you knew him?
Mr OLSEN. We spoke. And sometimes he would get mad and I would talk to him and calm him down a little bit.
Mr SPECTER. How often did you visit Jack Ruby's club, the Carousel Club?
Mr OLSEN. Oh, once a week, I guess. Sometimes more and sometimes less.
Mr SPECTER. Did you ever have any disputes with Ruby?
Mr OLSEN. Sometimes.
Mr SPECTER. What was the cause of the disputes?
Mr OLSEN. He would get mad with some of his help, some of his employees mostly, or customers. And he was erratic and hotheaded.
Mr SPECTER. What specific indications did you observe that he was erratic or hotheaded?
Mr OLSEN. Well, sometimes he would get so mad that he would shake.
Mr SPECTER. What would cause him to get that mad?
Mr OLSEN. Anything. I mean, he would Just fly off the handle about anything.
Mr SPECTER. Can you give me a specific illustration of what caused him on any occasion to become that angry?
Mr OLSEN. Mostly with his help.
Mr SPECTER. A moment ago you said that you had disagreements with him over the way he treated his help. What was it about the way he treated his help which caused you to have any disagreement with Jack Ruby?
Mr OLSEN. Well, they would want to quit and he would get upset about that.
Mr SPECTER. Was that in relation only to Mrs. Kay Olsen who was an employee of his, or did that apply to other employees as well?
Mr OLSEN. Others.
Mr SPECTER. Why was it that you were concerned about other employees?
Mr OLSEN. He would talk to me about it and ask me what I thought, and I would try to tell him to just calm down.
Mr SPECTER. But as a result of those conversations with Ruby, you had disagreements with him?
Mr OLSEN. Not very often. Not very often.
Mr SPECTER. Can you give me any other information as to what caused any disagreement between you and Jack Ruby?
Mr OLSEN. No, I can't think of anything.
Mr SPECTER. Where were you living in the fall of 1963, say in September of 1963?
Mr OLSEN. On Theatre Lane.
Mr SPECTER. And where was Mrs. Kay Olsen, who was then not your wife, living at that time?
Mr OLSEN. On Ewing.
Mr SPECTER. What was her specific address, if you recall?
Mr OLSEN. 325 North Ewing, I believe.
Mr SPECTER. What was your relationship with Kay in the fall of 1963?
Mr OLSEN. We were going together.
Mr SPECTER. Was she unmarried at that time?
Mr OLSEN. Yes, sir.
Mr SPECTER. Had she been married previously?
Mr OLSEN. Yes, sir.
Mr SPECTER. When was her divorce final, if you know?
Mr OLSEN. I don't know.
Mr SPECTER. Can you give me an approximate date as to when it was final?
Mr OLSEN. No, sir.
Mr SPECTER. Can you tell me if it was a few months or a few years before 1963?
Mr OLSEN. I just don't know. She might know.
Mr SPECTER. Were you married or single in the fall of 1963?
Mr OLSEN. I was single.
Mr SPECTER. Had you been married prior to that time?
Mr OLSEN. Yes, sir.
Mr SPECTER. When was your divorce final?
Mr OLSEN. October of 1963.
Mr SPECTER. Were you separated from your wife prior to October of 1963?
Mr OLSEN. Yes, sir.
Mr SPECTER. When were you first separated from your former wife?
Mr OLSEN. About 6 months before that.
Mr SPECTER. Were you going with or steadily dating Kay, then, from the early fall of 1963 on up until the time that you married her in December of 1963, or January of 1964?
Mr OLSEN. Yes, sir.
Mr SPECTER. Where did Mr. Ruby live in the fall of 1963, say September of 1963, if you know?
Mr OLSEN. He lived on Ewing.
Mr SPECTER. Do you recall----
Mr OLSEN. Right at Stemmons Freeway.
Mr SPECTER. How far was that from Kay's house?
Mr OLSEN. Approximately 4 or 5 blocks.
Mr SPECTER. How far was Mr. Ruby's residence from your residence?
Mr OLSEN. Oh, boy. Oh, it was, I would guess, 2 or 3 miles.
Mr SPECTER. Did you ever live only 1 block away from Mr. Ruby's residence?
Mr OLSEN. No, sir.
Mr SPECTER. Did Jack Ruby ever visit you at your apartment?
Mr OLSEN. No, sir.
Mr SPECTER. Did Jack Ruby ever visit Kay at her apartment?
Mr OLSEN. Yes, sir.
Mr SPECTER. How many times did he visit Kay at her apartment?
Mr OLSEN. I don't know.
Mr SPECTER. Could you give me an approximation?
Mr OLSEN. Oh, seven or eight times.
Mr SPECTER. Were you always present on those occasions?
Mr OLSEN. No, sir.
Mr SPECTER. What was the purpose of Jack Ruby's visiting Kay?
Mr OLSEN. Sometimes he would be mad about something, and mad at an employee, or sometimes he would stop by for breakfast after he closed his club.
Mr SPECTER. Was there ever any romantic connection between Jack Ruby and Kay?
Mr OLSEN. Not to my knowledge.
Mr SPECTER. It was just a cordial relationship which would lead him to stop over and pay her a visit and have breakfast or something to that effect?
Mr OLSEN. Yes.
Mr SPECTER. Was Ruby friendly with many police officers employed by the Dallas Police Department?
Mr OLSEN. Yes, sir.
Mr SPECTER. What were the circumstances surrounding his friendship for police officers?
Mr OLSEN. He seemed to like police officers.
Mr SPECTER. Was there any special reason for his affinity for police officers, or for liking them especially?
Mr OLSEN. No, he Just seemed to be friendly with all of them, wanted to know them.
Mr SPECTER. Did you know Officer J. D. Tippit?
Mr OLSEN. Yes, sir.
Mr SPECTER. Did you know him very well?
Mr OLSEN. No, sir.
Mr SPECTER. Do you know whether or not Jack Ruby knew Officer J. D. Tippit?
Mr OLSEN. I heard that he did.
Mr SPECTER. From whom did you hear that?
Mr OLSEN. It was a rumor that he did.
Mr SPECTER. When did you hear that rumor that he did know Officer J.D. Tippit?
Mr OLSEN. While talking with other officers. I couldn't specifically say when.
Mr SPECTER. Was that after Tippit was killed?
Mr OLSEN. Yes.
Mr SPECTER. Did you ever hear anybody say that Jack Ruby knew Officer J. D. Tippit before Officer Tippit was killed?
Mr OLSEN. No, sir.
Mr SPECTER. Could you recall specifically who it was who said that Ruby knew Officer Tippit?
Mr OLSEN. No, sir.
Mr SPECTER. Did you ever see Jack Ruby and Officer J. D. Tippit together?
Mr OLSEN. No, not that I recall.
Mr SPECTER. Well, think about that for just a minute and then see if you recollect anything more specifically on whether or not you ever saw Jack Ruby and Officer J. D. Tippit together.
Mr OLSEN. No, I don't.
Mr SPECTER. Did Jack Ruby ever do any favors for you, Mr. Olsen?
Mr OLSEN. Well, like what?
Mr SPECTER. Well, anything in a friendly way, such as do something you asked him to do or something of that sort? Did you ever ask him to do anything for you?
Mr OLSEN. Well, I asked him to let Kay off sometimes.
Mr SPECTER. Did he honor that request?
Mr OLSEN. Most of the time.
Mr SPECTER. Did you ever ask him to do anything besides letting Kay off on occasion?
Mr OLSEN. No, sir.
Mr SPECTER. Do you recall November 22, 1963, the day President Kennedy was assassinated?
Mr OLSEN. Yes, sir.
Mr SPECTER. Tell me, as specifically as you can recollect, exactly what your activities were on that day.
Mr OLSEN. I was employed by the Dallas Police Department and I was working at an extra job guarding an estate.
Mr SPECTER. Whose estate was that?
Mr OLSEN. I don't remember the name.
Mr SPECTER. How did you happen to get that extra job?
Mr OLSEN. A motorcycle officer was related to this elderly woman and he was doing work, but he was in the motor----
Mr SPECTER. Cade?
Mr OLSEN. Motorcade of the President, and I was off that day and able to work it.
Mr SPECTER. Do you recall the name of the motorcycle officer?
Mr OLSEN. No.
Mr SPECTER. Where was that estate located?
Mr OLSEN. On 8th Street in Dallas.
Mr SPECTER. Do you recall the specific address or the cross street on which it was located?
Mr OLSEN. It's in the Oak Cliff area, it's approximately two blocks off of Stemmons.
Mr SPECTER. How did it happen that you were not on duty with the police department on the day President Kennedy was in town?
Mr OLSEN. I had my leg in a cast and I was doing light duty, which was working in the office, patrol office, and I had asked them if they needed me to work that day and they said no.
Mr SPECTER. What sort of an accident did you have to injure your leg?
Mr OLSEN. I fell and broke my kneecap.
Mr SPECTER. When did that occur?
Mr OLSEN. Oh, several weeks before.
Mr SPECTER. At what hospital were you treated?
Mr OLSEN. Baylor Hospital.
Mr SPECTER. Is that in Dallas?
Mr OLSEN. Yes, sir; it's on Gaston.
Mr SPECTER. What time did you start to guard the estate on that particular Friday?
Mr OLSEN. About 7 a.m.
Mr SPECTER. And how long did that guard duty last?
Mr OLSEN. Until about 8.
Mr SPECTER. Eight p.m.?
Mr OLSEN. P.m., yes, sir.
Mr SPECTER. Did you have any visitors while you were guarding the estate on that day?
Mr OLSEN. Yes, sir.
Mr SPECTER. And who was the visitor or visitors?
Mr OLSEN. Kay.
Mr SPECTER. What time did she visit you?
Mr OLSEN. Right after the President was shot.
Mr SPECTER. How did you learn of the assassination of the President?
Mr OLSEN. A woman called me on the phone who was a friend of the person who had lived there.
Mr SPECTER. Do you know who that woman was?
Mr OLSEN. No, sir.- And she wanted to know if I had heard the news, and I said no and she said, "The President has been shot."
Mr SPECTER. What time did that telephone call occur?
Mr OLSEN. Right after he was shot. I don't know exactly what time it was.
Mr SPECTER. Did you talk to anybody else on the telephone or in person between the telephone call and the time that Kay visited you?
Mr OLSEN. Passers-by. I went outside.
Mr SPECTER. Whom did you see outside?
Mr OLSEN. No one who I knew by name They just said, "Have you heard the news?" And I said, "Yes, I had."
Mr SPECTER. Did you have any other telephone calls while you were guarding that house?
Mr OLSEN. I called the police department and asked them if they needed me to work.
Mr SPECTER. To whom did you talk at the police department?
Mr OLSEN. I don't recall.
Mr SPECTER. What response did you get?
Mr OLSEN. They said no.
Mr SPECTER. What time did Kay visit you on that Friday?
Mr OLSEN. In the afternoon sometime.
Mr SPECTER. How long did she stay?
Mr OLSEN. Oh, I would say an hour or two.
Mr SPECTER. Where did you have lunch on that Friday?
Mr OLSEN. There at the place that I was watching.
Mr SPECTER. Where did you have supper that day?
Mr OLSEN. At her house.
Mr SPECTER. What time did you go to her house? And by "her" I take it you mean Kay's house?
Mr OLSEN. Yes.
Mr SPECTER. Then what time did you go to Kay's house?
Mr OLSEN. When I got--when the motorcycle officer came and relieved me.
Mr SPECTER. About what time was that?
Mr OLSEN. Oh, 8; about 8.
Mr SPECTER. Did you have an automobile?
Mr OLSEN. No, sir.
Mr SPECTER. How did you get from the house which you were guarding to Kay's house?
Mr OLSEN. Walked.
Mr SPECTER. How far was it?
Mr OLSEN. About 4 blocks.
Mr SPECTER. Did the cast on your knee restrict your walking in any material way?
Mr OLSEN. Yes, sir.
Mr SPECTER. Were you able to walk with the cast on your knee?
Mr OLSEN. A little bit, not much.
Mr SPECTER. But you were able to walk well enough to cover those 4 blocks to Kay's house?
Mr OLSEN. Yes. And it swelled after I had walked it, though.
Mr SPECTER. What did you do after arriving at Kay's house?
Mr OLSEN. Well, going back to that, I had crutches, I believe, that I used. Now, what was the question?
Mr SPECTER. After you arrived at Kay's house, what did you do then?
Mr OLSEN. We talked about the assassination.
Mr SPECTER. How long did you stay at Kay's house?
Mr OLSEN. I would say several hours.
Mr SPECTER. And about what time did you leave Kay's house, to the best of your ability to recollect?
Mr OLSEN. What time I don't know.
Mr SPECTER. Was anybody else at Kay's house with you besides Kay?
Mr OLSEN. No, sir.
Mr SPECTER. In what manner did you travel away from Kay's house, by foot, by car?
Mr OLSEN. By car.
Mr SPECTER. Whose car was that?
Mr OLSEN. Mine.
Mr SPECTER. How was it that you didn't have your car at the house which you were guarding?
Mr OLSEN. I didn't want to drive it, I don't remember why. I think I left it for her to use.
Mr SPECTER. Did Kay go with you when you drove away from her house?
Mr OLSEN. Yes, sir.
Mr SPECTER. Where did you go?
Mr OLSEN. Downtown.
Mr SPECTER. What was the purpose of your trip to town?
Mr OLSEN. To see where the President was shot.
Mr SPECTER. Did you go then to Dealey Plaza?
Mr OLSEN. Yes, we drove by there.
Mr SPECTER. Did you go anyplace else?
Mr OLSEN. We went to a garage.
Mr SPECTER. Where was that garage located?
Mr OLSEN. Jackson and Field.
Mr SPECTER. What was the purpose of going to a garage at Jackson and Field?
Mr OLSEN. We knew the man who worked there.
Mr SPECTER. What was his name?
Mr OLSEN. Johnny is all I know him by.
Mr SPECTER. What sort of work did he do at that garage?
Mr OLSEN. He was an attendant.
Mr SPECTER. Why did you want to go see him?
Mr OLSEN. To talk.
Mr SPECTER. For any special purpose?
Mr OLSEN. No, sir.
Mr SPECTER. Do you recollect about what time you arrived at that garage?
Mr OLSEN. Oh, 12, approximately.
Mr SPECTER. Did you see Johnny when you were there?
Mr OLSEN. Yes, sir.
Mr SPECTER. Did you see anybody else while you were at that garage?
Mr OLSEN. Yes, sir.
Mr SPECTER. Who else did you see?
Mr OLSEN. Jack Ruby.
Mr SPECTER. Did you see anybody else besides Johnny and Jack Ruby?
Mr OLSEN. Not that I remember; no.
Mr SPECTER. Now, before seeing Ruby at the garage on that Friday night, when had you seen him most recently before that time?
Mr OLSEN. It could have been a few days or a week.
Mr SPECTER. Do you recall where it was that you saw him prior to this Friday night?
Mr OLSEN. Oh, it was probably outside of his club.
Mr SPECTER. Do you recall the specific instance or are you just saying what you think probably occurred?
Mr OLSEN. I am just saying what probably occurred, because I don't remember when I saw him before that.
Mr SPECTER. Do you have any recollection what your conversation was with Mr. Ruby when you saw him prior to this Friday night?
Mr OLSEN. No, sir.
Mr SPECTER. How long did you talk to Mr. Ruby on this Friday night?
Mr OLSEN. Two or three hours.
Mr SPECTER. Who else was present at the time of the conversation?
Mr OLSEN. Kay.
Mr SPECTER. And anybody else?
Mr OLSEN. Johnny.
Mr SPECTER. Was there anybody besides Johnny and Kay and Jack Ruby?
Mr OLSEN. Not that I remember.
Mr SPECTER. Tell me. as specifically as you can recall exactly what it was that Ruby said and what it was that you and Kay and Johnny said in reply to him?
Mr OLSEN. We were all upset about the President's assassination, and we were just talking about how we hated it, that it was a tragedy.
Mr SPECTER. Did Jack Ruby say something to that effect?
Mr OLSEN. Yes; very strongly.
Mr SPECTER. Do you recall what his exact words were, by any chance?
Mr OLSEN. I believe he said something to the effect that "It's too bad that a peon," or a person like Oswald, "could do something like that," referring to shooting the President and the officer, Officer Tippit.
Mr SPECTER. Did he say anything more about Oswald at that time?
Mr OLSEN. He cursed him.
Mr SPECTER. What specific language did he use?
Mr OLSEN. S.o.b.
Mr SPECTER. Was there any other specific curse that you recollect Ruby used in describing Oswald?
Mr OLSEN. He could have said something else, but I remember that. I'm sure that he did say something else, but I don't remember what it was.
Mr SPECTER. Did he say anything at that time about whether or not he knew Oswald?
Mr OLSEN. No, sir.
Mr SPECTER. Did he say anything at that time about whether or not he knew Officer J. D. Tippit?
Mr OLSEN. It seemed that he did know Officer Tippit.
Mr SPECTER. Why do you say, "It seemed that he did know Officer Tippit?
Mr OLSEN. I believe he said that Tippit had been to his club.
Mr SPECTER. Recollect as specifically as you can exactly what he said about that, if you can, Mr. Olsen.
Mr OLSEN. Something about Oswald shooting the President and Officer Tippit and leaving the wife and children, and he kept referring to Jaequeline.
Mr SPECTER. Well, how about what you were referring to concerning Ruby's knowing Officer Tippit? What exactly did Ruby say at that time, to the best of your ability to recollect, about any relationship or acquaintanceship between Jack Ruby and J. D. Tippit?
Mr OLSEN. Well, I just don't remember if there was anything specifically said about that.
Mr SPECTER. What did you say to Ruby during that conversation?
Mr OLSEN. I said it was a tragedy that this happened.
Mr SPECTER. What did Johnny say to Ruby at that time?
Mr OLSEN. And he said, yes; it sure was.
Mr SPECTER. Did Johnny say anything else?
Mr OLSEN. Well, we all talked; I don't remember what exactly was said.
Mr SPECTER. Do you remember anything specifically that Kay said at that time?
Mr OLSEN. No. It was a shame that it had happened.
Mr SPECTER. Do you recall whether or not Kay said something to the effect that "In England they would have Oswald by his toes and drag him through the street"?
Mr OLSEN. No, sir; I don't.
Mr SPECTER. Had Kay talked to Ruby earlier on that Friday?
Mr OLSEN. I believe that she did.
Mr SPECTER. Was that in person or by telephone?
Mr OLSEN. I believe it was by phone.
Mr SPECTER. Where was she when she talked to him by phone, if you know?
Mr OLSEN. At her house.
Mr SPECTER. And where was Ruby, if you know?
Mr OLSEN. I think he was at his house.
Mr SPECTER. At what time did that telephone conversation occur?
Mr OLSEN. I believe it was in the afternoon sometime.
Mr SPECTER. What was the purpose of that call, if you know?
Mr OLSEN. To find out if she had heard about the President's assassination----
Mr SPECTER. Was there anything else said by either Kay or Ruby at that time when they had telephone conversation?
Mr OLSEN. I wasn't--I don't believe I was there when she talked to him----
Mr SPECTER. How do you know about the call then?
Mr OLSEN. She said that she had talked to him.
Mr SPECTER. Do you know whether or not they discussed whether or not the Carousel Club would be open that night?
Mr OLSEN. I believe they did.
Mr SPECTER. And do you know what Ruby said about that subject matter?
Mr OLSEN. He said that it would not be open.
Mr SPECTER. Do you know whether Kay telephoned Ruby or Ruby telephoned Kay on the occasion?
Mr OLSEN. No; I don't.
Mr SPECTER. How long were you at that garage at Jackson and Field before you saw Jack Ruby on that Friday night or early Saturday morning?
Mr OLSEN. Oh, 30 minutes to an hour, I guess.
Mr SPECTER. Could that garage be located on Jackson and Akard, A-k-a-r-d?
Mr OLSEN. No, sir.
Mr SPECTER. How far is Jackson and Akard from Jackson and Field?
Mr OLSEN. One block.
Mr SPECTER. Did you discuss with Ruby the fact that he closed his club that night?
Mr OLSEN. Yes.
Mr SPECTER. What did you say to him, if you recall?
Mr OLSEN. I said that it should be closed.
Mr SPECTER. Did you congratulate him for having closed it?
Mr OLSEN. I believe I did.
Mr SPECTER. Did you shake his hand?
Mr OLSEN. I don't recall.
Mr SPECTER. Were you pretty emotionally upset about the assassination of President Kennedy at that time?
Mr OLSEN. Yes, sir.
Mr SPECTER. Was Kay pretty emotionally upset about the assassination at that time?
Mr OLSEN. Yes, sir.
Mr SPECTER. How about Johnny?
Mr OLSEN. He was, too; yes, sir.
Mr SPECTER. And how about Ruby?
Mr OLSEN. Yes, sir.
Mr SPECTER. What indication was there that you observed that Ruby was emotionally upset about the assassination?
Mr OLSEN. He was very nervous.
Mr SPECTER. In what way was that evident?
Mr OLSEN. Oh, in his speech and his actions.
Mr SPECTER. Was there any other indication that you were able to observe that Ruby was upset about the assassination?
Mr OLSEN. Oh, the way he talked, and that was it.
Mr SPECTER. Did Ruby mention anything about the Weissman advertisement that appeared in the Dallas papers earlier that day?
Mr OLSEN. Yes, sir.
Mr SPECTER. What did he say about that?
Mr OLSEN. He said they shouldn't be open.
Mr SPECTER. What Weissman advertisement had appeared earlier that day?
Mr OLSEN. Just the usual ad in the paper about them being open.
Mr SPECTER. Was there any advertisement in the paper that day containing derogatory statements about President Kennedy?
Mr OLSEN. There was something in the paper, I believe, about somebody carrying banners in one part of town.
Mr SPECTER. What kind of banners were those?
Mr OLSEN. I believe they were about President Kennedy, and what they said, I don't remember what it was.
Mr SPECTER. Do you remember Ruby's comment about that, or whether he made one?
Mr OLSEN. I believe he did say something about that.
Mr SPECTER. Do you recall what it was?
Mr OLSEN. He said that it wasn't right, and "I just wonder how they feel about it now."
Mr SPECTER. Did he say anything about the radicals in Dallas at that particular time?
Mr OLSEN. Not that I remember.
Mr SPECTER. Did he say anything about the effect of all that on the Jews?
Mr OLSEN. I believe he did.
Mr SPECTER. What did he say about that?
Mr OLSEN. No; he didn't; I don't believe he said anything about that; no.
Mr SPECTER. Now, at about what time was it----
Mr OLSEN. Let me think about that for a minute, will you?
Mr SPECTER. Go ahead; take your time.
Mr OLSEN. I heard something about him saying after he shot Oswald that he wondered if the other Jews would blame him for what he had done.
Mr SPECTER. Did you hear that from Ruby personally?
Mr OLSEN. No; it was hearsay.
Mr SPECTER. Who told you that?
Mr OLSEN. I either read it or heard it.
Mr SPECTER. Do you recall where you read it?
Mr OLSEN. I believe----
Mr SPECTER. Or from whom you heard it?
Mr OLSEN. It was either in the paper or from someone who had been to visit him.
Mr SPECTER. Who might it have been who was to visit him?
Mr OLSEN. Wally Weston.
Mr SPECTER. Who is Wally Weston?
Mr OLSEN. He was the master of ceremonies there in his club.
Mr SPECTER. When did you last talk to Wally Weston?
Mr OLSEN. When I was in the hospital after the car accident.
Mr SPECTER. When did that car accident occur?
Mr OLSEN. December 7.
Mr SPECTER. How long were you in the hospital?
Mr OLSEN. Two weeks, two and a half weeks.
Mr SPECTER. What injuries did you sustain in that automobile collision?
Mr OLSEN. I rebroke my leg.
Mr SPECTER. In the same place?
Mr OLSEN. The same place and some more breaks. And I cracked my chest bone.
Mr SPECTER. Indicating your sternum?
Mr OLSEN. Yes, sir. And I broke some ribs.
Mr SPECTER. What hospital were you in?
Mr OLSEN. Methodist.
Mr SPECTER. What else did Wally Weston have to say on that occasion, if anything, about Jack Ruby?
Mr OLSEN. He couldn't understand why he did it.
Mr SPECTER. Did Weston say anything further about Jack Ruby?
Mr OLSEN. Not that I remember.
Mr SPECTER. Have you now told me everything you can remember about that conversation among you and Ruby and Kay and Johnny that night in the garage?
Mr OLSEN. Between who?
Mr SPECTER. Ruby, Kay, Johnny, and you at the garage the Friday night or early Saturday morning of the assassination.
Mr OLSEN. I can't think of anything else. It was a conversation about what had happened to the President and Officer Tippit, and everyone was very upset about it.
Mr SPECTER. What time, to the best of your ability or recollection, did that conversation end?
Mr OLSEN. Two or three in the morning.
Mr SPECTER. What did you do after that?
Mr OLSEN. I took Kay home.
Mr SPECTER. Did you see any----
Mr OLSEN. Jack left.
Mr SPECTER. Did you see anybody or talk to anybody else later that night?
Mr OLSEN. No, sir.
Mr SPECTER. And what did you do after taking Kay home?
Mr OLSEN. We talked a while.
Mr SPECTER. And what did you do next?
Mr OLSEN. I think I went home.
Mr SPECTER. What time did you awaken on Saturday?
Mr OLSEN. Oh, probably 11 in the morning.
Mr SPECTER. Where did you have breakfast on Saturday?
Mr OLSEN. At her house.
Mr SPECTER. What time did you go to her house? And by "her" I take it you mean Kay?
Mr OLSEN. Yes, sir. Oh, 12 or 1 o'clock.
Mr SPECTER. Did you see anybody else on Saturday besides Kay?
Mr OLSEN. Yes, sir.
Mr SPECTER. Who else did you see?
Mr OLSEN. I saw Ruby Saturday night.
Mr SPECTER. Where was it that you saw Ruby?
Mr OLSEN. In front of his club.
Mr SPECTER. The Carousel Club?
Mr OLSEN. Yes, sir.
Mr SPECTER. At what time was that?
Mr OLSEN. Oh, 10 or 11 at night.
Mr SPECTER. Did you speak to him?
Mr OLSEN. No, sir.
Mr SPECTER. What was the circumstances under which you saw him?
Mr OLSEN. We were driving by and he was standing outside and we waved.
Mr SPECTER. Did he see you and wave at you?
Mr OLSEN. Yes, sir.
Mr SPECTER. What did you do from the time you got to Kay's house until the time that you saw Ruby standing in front of his club on that Saturday night?
Mr OLSEN. Watched some television and listened to the radio a little bit.
Mr SPECTER. Did you see or talk to anybody else either in person or by telephone from the time you got to Kay's house until the time you saw Ruby that Saturday night?
Mr OLSEN. No, sir; I don't guess we did.
Mr SPECTER. What did you do after you saw Ruby in front of his club that Saturday night?
Mr OLSEN. What did we do then?
Mr SPECTER. What did you and Kay do then?
Mr OLSEN. We drove by where the President was shot, we drove by there several times, and drove around town a little bit.
Mr SPECTER. What time did you finish driving around town?
Mr OLSEN. Oh, I guess 1 or 2.
Mr SPECTER. In the morning?
Mr OLSEN. Yes, sir.
Mr SPECTER. Did you see anybody else you knew while you were driving around town?
Mr OLSEN. We did, but I don't remember who it was.
Mr SPECTER. Did you stop and talk to them?
Mr OLSEN. Yes, sir. I don't remember who it was.
Mr SPECTER. Where did you go when you finished driving around town?
Mr OLSEN. I took her home.
Mr SPECTER. What time did you arrive at her home?
Mr OLSEN. I would say 2 or 3 in the morning.
Mr SPECTER. What did you do next?
Mr OLSEN. Well, we talked about what had happened more.
Mr SPECTER. How long did that conversation last?
Mr OLSEN. Oh, I guess about an hour.
Mr SPECTER. What did you do next?
Mr OLSEN. Went to bed.
Mr SPECTER. Where did you sleep that night?
Mr OLSEN. I could have slept on her couch. Either that or I went back to my apartment.
Mr SPECTER. At what time did you awaken Sunday morning?
Mr OLSEN. Oh, 10 or 11.
Mr SPECTER. Where did you have breakfast?
Mr OLSEN. At her house.
Mr SPECTER. And by "her" you mean Kay?
Mr OLSEN. Yes, sir.
Mr SPECTER. And what did you do after breakfast? First, did you go to Kay's house right after you awakened?
Mr OLSEN. Yes, sir.
Mr SPECTER. Then how long did you stay at Kay's house?
Mr OLSEN. I think we were there when Ruby shot Oswald.
Mr SPECTER. How did you learn that Ruby had shot Oswald?
Mr OLSEN. It was either the radio or the television.
Mr SPECTER. Were you watching TV at the time that it happened?
Mr OLSEN. I believe so. If not, we turned it on right after we had heard it.
Mr SPECTER. Was anyone else present in Kay's house except you and Kay?
Mr OLSEN. Her children.
Mr SPECTER. What are the names of her children?
Mr OLSEN. Susan and Sheri.
Mr SPECTER. How old is Susan?
Mr OLSEN. Nine.
Mr SPECTER. How old is Sheri?
Mr OLSEN. Seven.
Mr SPECTER. Was anyone else present besides you and Kay and Susan and Sheri?
Mr OLSEN. No, sir; they could have been outside playing.
Mr SPECTER. How long did you stay at Kay's house that day?
Mr OLSEN. Oh, several hours, I guess.
Mr SPECTER. Did you see anybody else before you left Kay's house that day, on that Sunday?
Mr OLSEN. Not that I recall. I could have seen somebody who lives there.
Mr SPECTER. Such as who?
Mr OLSEN. Oh, the landlord.
Mr SPECTER. Who is he?
Mr OLSEN. I don't remember his name.
Mr SPECTER. Did you talk to anybody by telephone that day?
Mr OLSEN. I don't recall if I called the police department or not, whether they wanted me to come down and work.
Mr SPECTER. Were you on duty that day?
Mr OLSEN. No, sir.
Mr SPECTER. How was it that you were off for 3 days in a row?
Mr OLSEN. I had a holiday.
Mr SPECTER. What do you mean by "a holiday"?
Mr OLSEN. Well, like Christmas or Thanksgiving, or something like that.
Mr SPECTER. You mean you had a compensatory day coming for having worked a holiday?
Mr OLSEN. Yes, sir.
Mr SPECTER. Did you hear any announcement that day that Oswald was about to be moved?
Mr OLSEN. Yes, sir.
Mr SPECTER. How did you happen to hear that?
Mr OLSEN. On television, I believe.
Mr SPECTER. And specifically, what was that announcement?
Mr OLSEN. That he was being moved from the, city jail to the county jail.
Mr SPECTER. Did you talk to anybody about that?
Mr OLSEN. No, sir.
Mr SPECTER. Did you tell Ruby about that?
Mr OLSEN. No, sir.
Mr SPECTER. Did you talk to Ruby that Sunday?
Mr OLSEN. No, sir
Mr SPECTER. Have you ever talked to Ruby at any time after that conversation you had with him in the garage on late Friday night or early Saturday morning?
Mr OLSEN. No, sir.
Mr SPECTER. What time did you leave Kay's house on Sunday, November 24, to the best of your ability to recollect?
Mr OLSEN. I would say 9 or 10 o'clock.
Mr SPECTER. In the evening?
Mr OLSEN. Yes, sir.
Mr SPECTER. Where did you go then?
Mr OLSEN. We drove by city hall.
Mr SPECTER. Did you stop?
Mr OLSEN. Sir?
Mr SPECTER. Did you stop at city hall?
Mr OLSEN. No, sir.
Mr SPECTER. Where did you go after dropping by city hall?
Mr OLSEN. We drove by where the President was assassinated.
Mr SPECTER. Was Kay with you at. that time?
Mr OLSEN. I believe she was.
Mr SPECTER. Where did you go next?
Mr OLSEN. I believe we went to her house.
Mr SPECTER. How long did you stay there?
Mr OLSEN. Oh, I don't remember.
Mr SPECTER. Did you contact anybody after you learned Oswald was shot by Ruby?
Mr OLSEN. Sir?
Mr SPECTER. Did you contact anybody after you learned that Oswald was shot by Ruby?
Mr OLSEN. I believe I called the police department and asked them if they wanted me to work.
Mr SPECTER. Aside from that call, did you contact anybody?
Mr OLSEN. No, sir.
Mr SPECTER. And when you called the police department what did they tell you?
Mr OLSEN. They didn't need me to work.
Mr SPECTER. Do you recall who you talked to on that occasion?
Mr OLSEN. No, sir.
Mr SPECTER. Has Kay worked for Ruby at any time after the assassination?
Mr OLSEN. No, sir.
Mr SPECTER. When did she work for Ruby last preceding the assassination?
Mr OLSEN. Thursday, I would say.
Mr SPECTER. When did you end your employment with the Dallas Police Department?
Mr OLSEN. The latter part of December.
Mr SPECTER. What was the reason for leaving the Dallas Police Department?
Mr OLSEN. I wanted to come to California.
Mr SPECTER. Nobody at the Dallas Police Department asked you to leave?
Mr OLSEN. Yes, sir.
Mr SPECTER. Who asked you to leave the Police Department?
Mr OLSEN. Chief Curry.
Mr SPECTER. What was the reason for that?
Mr OLSEN. I was out of sick time; in other words, you are allotted so much sick time a year, and he didn't want to extend me any more.
Mr SPECTER. Was that the only reason why he asked you to terminate your employment with the police department?
Mr OLSEN. That was one of the reasons.
Mr SPECTER. Was there any other reason?
(Long pause.)
Mr OLSEN. I don't remember exactly what was said.
Mr SPECTER. Was there any special reason why you went to California?
Mr OLSEN. We heard the eliminate was nice out here.
Mr SPECTER. Do you know a Bertha Cheek? Does that name ring a bell with you?
Mr OLSEN. Yes, sir.
Mr SPECTER. Who is she?
Mr OLSEN. I have heard the name. Can you help me a little bit with it?
Mr SPECTER. Well, do you recollect anything about her at this moment?
Mr OLSEN. No, sir; I have heard the name, though.
Mr SPECTER. Did you tell Bertha Cheek that Ruby was looking for a partner?
Mr OLSEN. Well, who is Bertha Cheek?
Mr SPECTER. You just don't recollect?
Mr OLSEN. Did I tell Bertha Cheek that Ruby was looking for a partner?
Mr SPECTER. Yes.
Mr OLSEN. Not that I remember.
Mr SPECTER. Did Ruby ever room at Bertha Cheek's apartment building?
Mr OLSEN. Well, where is that?
Mr SPECTER. Well, do you know of any Bertha Cheek who has an apartment building in Dallas?
Mr OLSEN. Does she have the one on Gaston?
Mr SPECTER. Did Ruby ever room at an apartment building on Gaston?
Mr OLSEN. Not that I know of, no.
Mr SPECTER. From the time President Kennedy was assassinated through the rest of that Friday and Saturday and Sunday did you see or talk to Little Lynn?
Mr OLSEN. No.
Mr SPECTER. Bruce Carlin, during that same time?
Mr OLSEN. Who?
Mr SPECTER. Bruce Carlin. I notice a quizzical look on your face. Do you know who Bruce Carlin is?
Mr OLSEN. No; can you help me?
Mr SPECTER. No; I-am not able to do that. Did you see or talk to Tammi True?
Mr OLSEN. Not that I remember.
Mr SPECTER. Do you know Tammi True?
Mr OLSEN. Yes.
Mr SPECTER. Did you see or talk to Ralph Paul from November 22d through to November 24th?
Mr OLSEN. I don't believe so.
Mr SPECTER. Do you know Tom Howard?
Mr OLSEN. Yes.
Mr SPECTER. Did you see or talk to Tom Howard from the time of the assassination until the following Sunday?
Mr OLSEN. No.
Mr SPECTER. Did you see or talk to Breck Wail during that same period of time?
Mr OLSEN. No.
Mr SPECTER. Did you see or talk to George Senator from November 22d through the 24th?
Mr OLSEN. No, sir.
Mr SPECTER. You know who George Senator is?
Mr OLSEN. Yes, sir.
Mr SPECTER. Do you know Mickey Ryan?
(Witness shaking head.)
Mr SPECTER. Let the record show that Mr.----
Mr OLSEN. No, sir.
Mr SPECTER. Olsen is shaking his head "No," and now he has said "No." Do you know Blackie Harrison?
Mr OLSEN. I believe, if it's the one I'm thinking of.
Mr SPECTER. Are you thinking of one who is an officer on the Police Department?
Mr OLSEN. Yes, sir.
Mr SPECTER. Did you see or talk to Blackie Harrison from the time of assassination to the Sunday after that?
Mr OLSEN. No, sir.
Mr SPECTER. Do you know Lieutenant Butler?
Mr OLSEN. Yes, sir.
Mr SPECTER. Did you see or talk to Lieutenant Butler from the assassination until the 24th of November?
Mr OLSEN. No, sir; I don't believe so.
Mr SPECTER. Did you see or talk to Detective L. D. Miller from the assassination until November 24th?
Mr OLSEN. Not that I remember; no, sir.
Mr SPECTER. Do you know Tom O'Grady?
Mr OLSEN. I might know him by sight, but I don't know him from the name.
Mr SPECTER. Did Ralph Paul ever tell you that Ruby said he was going to shoot Oswald?
Mr OLSEN. No, not that I remember.
Mr SPECTER. Did you ever hear of Oswald before the assassination of President Kennedy?
Mr OLSEN. No, sir.
Mr SPECTER. Did you ever see Oswald before the assassination of President Kennedy?
Mr OLSEN. Not that I remember.
Mr SPECTER. Do you know at all whether Ruby knew Oswald prior to the assassination?
Mr OLSEN. I don't know.
Mr SPECTER. Do you know Eugene Smith?
Mr OLSEN. I don't remember. I might know him if I would see him.
Mr SPECTER. Do you know whether Ruby knew anyone by the name of Eugene Smith?
Mr OLSEN. No, I don't.
Mr SPECTER. Do you know: whether Ruby was a member of any subversive organization; that is, an organization which advocates ,the forceful overthrow of the U.S. Government?
Mr OLSEN. To my knowledge, he was never a member of anything like that.
Mr SPECTER. Do you know whether any of his friends or family were members of such an organization?
Mr OLSEN. I don't know.
Mr SPECTER. Do you know whether Ruby associated with any of the criminal element.
Mr OLSEN. Yes, sir.
Mr SPECTER. Did ,he ever associate with any of the criminal element?
Mr OLSEN. I think he did in Chicago.
Mr SPECTER. What is the basis for your saying that?
Mr OLSEN. I had heard that he had been with a gang in Chicago.
Mr SPECTER. Who told you that?
Mr OLSEN. Oh, it could have been Ruby himself.
Mr SPECTER. Do you recall for sure whether or not it was Ruby who told you that?
Mr OLSEN. I recall .that he did--he had said something about being with a--or, how rough Chicago used to be.
Mr SPECTER. Well, did he say anything beyond how rough it was, to the effect that he was with a criminal gang or anything of that sort?
Mr OLSEN. No, sir.
Mr SPECTER. Do you know anything about Ruby's trip to Cuba?
Mr OLSEN. Yes, sir.
Mr SPECTER. What do you know about that?
Mr OLSEN. He said he was going to Cuba to get acts.
Mr SPECTER. To get what?
Mr OLSEN. Acts.
Mr SPECTER. A-c-t-s?
Mr OLSEN. Yes.
Mr SPECTER. For his nightclub?
Mr OLSEN. Yes.
Mr SPECTER. When did he go to Cuba, if you remember?
Mr OLSEN. I remember when he went, but I don't remember the date.
Mr SPECTER. Was there any other purpose that you know about in Ruby's going to Cuba?
Mr OLSEN. No. He seemed to be quiet about it.
Mr SPECTER. Do you know anything about Ruby's attitude toward the John Birch Society?
Mr OLSEN. No, sir.
Mr SPECTER. Do you know anything about his attitude toward the Minutemen?
Mr OLSEN. No, sir.
Mr SPECTER. Did you ever hear Ruby say anything about the sign on impeaching Chief Justice Earl Warren?
Mr OLSEN. Would you repeat that?
Mr SPECTER. Did you ever hear Ruby say anything about a sign or advertisement which said "Impeach Chief Justice Earl Warren of the U.S. Supreme Court"?
Mr OLSEN. He could have said something about it, but I don't remember. I think that he did.
Mr SPECTER. Off the record for just a minute.
(There was a discussion off the record.)
Mr SPECTER. Do you have anything to add which you think would be helpful
to the President's Commission in any way, Mr. Olsen?
Mr OLSEN. I wish I did. If I did, I would tell you.
Mr SPECTER. But you don't?
Mr OLSEN. Not that I can think of.
Mr SPECTER. All right. Now, under the procedure of the Commission, Mr.
Olsen, we can make this deposition transcript available to you to read and
to sign, if you want to, or you can forego your right to do that on what is
called a waiver.
Would you like to read and sign the deposition; that is, this record?
Mr OLSEN. Should I?
Mr SPECTER. Well, it's up to you. If you want to, you can, it's up to you.
There is some doubt in your mind, so I think we will make it available to
you to read and to sign.
Mr OLSEN. OK.
Mr SPECTER. Thank you very much for coming, Mr. Olsen, and that concludes
the deposition.
(There was a discussion off the record.)
Mr SPECTER. Let's go back on the record just a minute.
Mr. Olsen, did we have a brief conversation before I administered the oath
to you and the court reporter started to take down my questions and your
answers?
Mr OLSEN. Yes, sir.
Mr SPECTER. And did I cover in a general way the questions which I have
since asked you on the record?
Mr OLSEN. Yes, sir.
Mr SPECTER. And did you give me the same information which you have given on
the record?
Mr OLSEN. Yes, sir.
Mr SPECTER. Thank you.