VII 289.308
TESTIMONY OF HARRY D. HOLMES
The testimony of Harry D. Holmes was taken at 4 p.m., on April 2, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. BELIN. Sir, would you rise and raise your right hand and be sworn.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. HOLMES. I do, sir.
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Mr. BELIN. Would you please state your name for the record?
Mr. HOLMES. Harry D. Holmes.
Mr. BELIN. Where do you live, Mr. Holmes?
Mr. HOLMES. 1711 McManus, Dallas, Tex.
Mr. BELIN. What is your occupation?
Mr. HOLMES. Postal inspector.
Mr. BELIN. For the U.S. Post Office Department?
Mr. HOLMES. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. How old are you?
Mr. HOLMES. I am 57.
Mr. BELIN. What is your educational background? Did you go to high school here?
Mr. HOLMES. I graduated from high school in Kansas City, and went 2 years to William Jewell College at Liberty, Mo. and went almost through my third rear in Kansas City. Went to dental college in Kansas City.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?
Mr. HOLMES. Well, all that time I was working in the post office as a clerk, and about that time the war broke out and I went into the Postal Inspection Service in April 1942, and have been a postal inspector ever since.
Mr. BELIN. Have you been in Dallas ever since then?
Mr. HOLMES. No; I came here July 1, 1948. I have been here ever since.
Mr. BELIN. Where were you on November 22, 1963, around noon or so. That in the day of the assassination?
Mr. HOLMES. I was in my office on the fifth floor of the terminal annex building. located at the corner of Houston and Commerce Streets, Dallas, Tex.
Mr. BELIN. Houston and Commerce Streets in Dallas. Now, where is Commerce with relation to Elm?
Mr. HOLMES. Commerce, Main, Elm--two blocks.
Mr. BELIN. So Commerce would be two blocks south of Elm?
Mr. HOLMES. That's right.
Mr. BELIN. On what corner is your building?
Mr. HOLMES. It is on the northeast corner.
Mr. BELIN. The northeast corner?
Mr. HOLMES. Yes; well, now, wait a minute.
Mr. BELIN. I mean the building itself.
Mr. HOLMES. This is the reflecting pool, and here is the underpass, comes down like this, and this is Elm, and this is Main, and this is Commerce, and my building is right here. Right here is the School Book.
Mr. BELIN. This is north?
Mr. HOLMES. Yes; that is "cattywampus." This would be the southwest corner.
Mr. BELIN. All right. You have now corrected your testimony by drawing a diagram. What corner is this?
Mr. HOLMES. Southwest.
Mr. BELIN. On what side of the building is your office where you were sitting?
Mr. HOLMES. On the north side.
Mr. BELIN. From your office looking north, what building would you see?
Mr. HOLMES. The Texas School Book Depository Building. And I am on the fifth floor of my building.
Mr. BELIN. Were you on the fifth floor about the time the motorcade was coming down Main Street?
Mr. HOLMES. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Did you see the motorcade turn from Main onto Houston?
Mr. HOLMES. Yes; I did.
Mr. BELIN. What direction did it turn on Houston?
Mr. HOLMES. It turned north on Houston to Elm, and then turned left on Elm.
Mr. BELIN. To go down to the triple underpass?
Mr. HOLMES. That's right.
Mr. BELIN. About how fast was the motorcade going when you saw it, if you have any estimate on it?
Mr. HOLMES. I would say 15 miles an hour.
Mr. BELIN. Would you describe what you saw and heard then?
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Mr. HOLMES. As it came out of Main Street, the President was sitting on the right in the back seat. His wife was on the left. Governor Connally, whom I also recognized, was sitting on the right of the middle seat.
Mr. BELIN. Were you looking with the aid of any optical instrument?
Mr. HOLMES. I had a pair of 7 1/2 x 50 binoculars. They were acknowledging the applause of the crowd and kind of waving, but not standing up. This is a short block.
Mr. BELIN. From Main to Elm?
Mr. HOLMES. To Elm is really not more than a good full block, but the motorcade turned north on Houston and went to Elm and turned left on Elm where it started on a downgrade to what we refer to as a triple underpass. As it turned in front of the School Book Depository, I heard what to me sounded like firecrackers, and it was my recollection that there were three of them.
I had my binoculars on this car, on the Presidential car all the time. I realized something was wrong, but I thought they were dodging somebody throwing things at the car like firecrackers or something, but I did see dust fly up like a firecracker had burst up in the air.
Mr. BELIN. Where did you see the dust?
Mr. HOLMES. Off of President Kennedy and I couldn't tell you which one of the cracks of the firecracker resulted in this.
Mr. BELIN. Do you have any recollection of the amount of time that elapsed between each of the three sounds?
Mr. HOLMES. I have tried to set a time, but it just escapes me. Honestly, I couldn't say. They were rather rapid. Say 20 seconds or something like that.
Mr. BELIN. You mean 20 seconds elapsed between all three, or less than 20 seconds?
Mr. HOLMES. Possibly 20 seconds, or half a minute and then crack and kind of a lapse and then another crack. I wouldn't want to swear to that. I have tried to recall it.
Mr. BELIN. Was there more time between the first and the second one, or between the second and third?
Mr. HOLMES. I couldn't tell you that.
Mr. BELIN. What did you see after that?
Mr. HOLMES. Mr. Kennedy leaned over against his wife, Mrs. Kennedy, as this thing, firecracker, looked like, come out. The car almost came to a stop, and Mrs. Kennedy pulled loose of him and crawled out over the turtleback of this Presidential car and was almost off of the back of the turtleback when a man from a car next to it came running up and I never--I got the impression in one way that she was trying to help him on the bumper.
I got the impression in another way that he was trying to push her back in the seat for fear she would fall and hurt herself. It was so quick that that was my impression, and in fact we discussed it. There was several of us looking out of the window, why she was going out over this car, and we were arguing that she was trying to help the Secret Service man or the Secret Service man was trying to get her back in the car, and this was our impression.
Policemen jumped off of the motorcycles that were along the route and with drawn pistols started rushing into the crowd. I saw many people down on the ground, and I have one particular couple in mind that I had watched on a bench, sitting on a park bench that the man had this woman down. I remember my impression at the time that he was trying to take a gun away from her, or some thing, and by that time I decided maybe there was a gun involved in it instead of firecrackers.
He had her down on the ground. But then it later developed that he was trying to protect her from the shots. But then I didn't know that at the time. And I did watch her as they got up. Then different people hid around behind pillars in this arbor.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you see happen?
Mr. HOLMES. Then just people went from every direction hunting around the railroad yard and among the ears parked in- the area. I saw a policeman rushing into the School Book Depository Building.
Mr. BELIN. Was this a motorcycle policeman?
Mr. HOLMES. I did definitely see motorcycle policemen, one of--one or two or
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three---with their white helmets, and these motorcycle uniforms rushed up in the crowd with drawn pistols. And I thought maybe they might have been shooting to frighten the people.
Mr. BELIN. Where did the noise sound like it came from?
Mr. HOLMES. It reverberated among the buildings and I couldn't tell you. It sounded like from the crowd over there.
Mr. BELIN. Anything else happen that afternoon that you think is important insofar as the investigation of the assassination is concerned?
Mr. HOLMES. I watched for hours from that vantage point up there with my binoculars, hoping I would see someone running across the railroad tracks, or maybe that I could get word to the police as to where they were, because it was like a birdseye view of the panorama of the whole area.
Mr. BELIN. Did you see anyone run across the railroad track?
Mr. HOLMES. No. I saw nothing suspicious and I am a trained suspicioner.
Mr. BELIN. I want to see what the court reporter has down in her notes.
Now. what was the next contact you had with anything connected with the assassination or the investigation?
Mr. HOLMES. I never quit. I didn't get to bed for 2 days.
Mr. BELIN. Tell as what you did that you feel might be important that we should record here.
Mr. HOLMES. Of course I was in contact with the chief inspector in Washington, who was listening to the radio reports, and I remember once he called and he said, "Well, now, could the shots have come from the terminal annex building. Has your office been shaken out, the annex." Of course we gave that attention but there was nothing of any nature there of any importance. I was doing all I could to help other agencies.
One of the box clerks downstairs came up after an hour or so when the radio reports came in about the apprehension of Lee Oswald following the shooting of Officer Tippit, and said, "I think you ought to know, Mr. Holmes, that we rented a box downstairs to a Lee Oswald recently, and it is box number so-and-so".
That was my first tip that he had a box downstairs in the terminal annex. That box is No. 6225.
Mr. BELIN. I am handing you what has been marked as Holmes Deposition Exhibit No. 1. I will ask you to state what this is.
Mr. HOLMES. That is a photo copy of the original box rental application completed by Lee H. Oswald covering box No. 6225, which he completed on November the 1st, 1963.
Mr. BELIN. Where it says, date of application, that you gave, is it not?
Mr. HOLMES. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. I notice over here in--a notation on the side 11-22-63, with some initials on it. Do you know what that is?
Mr. HOLMES. Those are my initials and they indicate that I took the original box application from the post office records on that date.
Mr. BELIN. What did you do with it?
Mr. HOLMES. I turned it over to an FBI agent at a later date. I don't know when.
Mr. BELIN. Did any particular employee ever remember actually dealing with Lee Oswald?
Mr. HOLMES. He could not recall what the man looked like. He couldn't identify him from what he later saw his pictures in the paper. He could not identify him as actually being the man that rented the box, because I have talked to him about it.
Mr. BELIN. Now, on Deposition Exhibit 1, for the name of the firm or the corporation, it says, "Fair Play for Cuba Committee" and "American Civil Liberties Union," is that correct?
Mr. HOLMES. That's correct.
Mr. BELIN. And kind of business, it says, "nonprofit," is that correct?
Mr. HOLMES. That's correct.
Mr. BELIN. Then business address, there is a dash running through there, and home address is "3610 North Beckley," is that correct?
Mr. HOLMES. That's correct. That is the address he gave as the residential address when he rented the box.
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Mr. BELIN. Then there is a signature "Lee H. Oswald," with the date of November 1, 1963?
Mr. HOLMES. This clerk told me that the man definitely filled this thing out himself.
Mr. BELIN. Does the clerk remember seeing it?
Mr. HOLMES. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. There is a stamp, which I assume is your post office stamp, that says on there, "Date box opened, November 1, 1963," and the box number is written in as "6225".
Mr. HOLMES. That's right.
Mr. BELIN. There--is there less charge for a nonprofit organization box than there is for anything else?
Mr. HOLMES. No. That box went closed for lack of payment of rent on December 31.
Mr. BELIN. What year?
Mr. HOLMES. Of 1963.
Mr. BELIN. After you found out that this was his box, did you keep any surveillance on it?
Mr. HOLMES. We kept a 24-hour, round-the-clock surveillance from about well into Sunday, I think, 3 days.
Mr. BELIN. That is the Sunday that Lee Harvey Oswald was shot?
Mr. HOLMES. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. How many box keys were given out, according to your records, for the box?
Mr. HOLMES. One.
Mr. BELIN. Was that one ever turned back to you?
Mr. HOLMES. No.
Mr. BELIN. When was that?
Mr. HOLMES. Didn't the police have it? I saw it--yes.
Mr. BELIN. You saw it at the police department?
Mr. HOLMES. I asked them about it, and he asked could this be it? I had taken the duplicate key with me to see if I could match it. They have numbers on them and I did. The detective pulled it out and said, "Is this it," in the presence of Captain Fritz, and I matched the numbers, and it was.
Mr. BELIN. Were the numbers the same for the box number as the key number?
Mr. HOLMES. No; it was a key number. Fritz kept it with the evidence.
Mr. BELIN. Anything else about this box or the application, Deposition Exhibit 1 here?
Mr. HOLMES. Only that an occasional Russian newspaper was received in that box after we began to watch it from then on until it was closed. No first-class mail. What is "The Daily Worker," sir? It's been the "Daily Worker," now.
Mr. BELIN. There was some newspaper that came? Well--some American newspaper?
Mr. HOLMES. It is what used to be "The Daily Worker," came, and a couple of Russian newspapers came there.
Mr. BELIN. Anything else?
Mr. HOLMES. From Minsk. That was her hometown, Marina's hometown in Russia.
Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else in connection with this box and this application that you care to talk about?
Mr. HOLMES. No.
Mr. BELIN. Then what was the next thing that you had contact with pertaining to the assassination?
Mr. HOLMES. Saturday morning----
Mr. BELIN. This would be November 23?
Mr. HOLMES. Twenty-third. I came into the lobby of the terminal annex, and the postal inspector that was on duty mentioned that the FBI agent had called to inquire as to how they could obtain an original post office money order.
He said he had told them that they would have to get it in Washington, but would have to know the number of the post office money order.
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So he was worrying then as to how he could get that number.
So I knew about the post office money order. They said that Oswald---they said that also this FBI agent had passed on the information that I don't know whether he told him or I called the FBI after--I went on up to my office, but somewhere I got the information that the FBI had knowledge that a gun of this particular Italian make and caliber had been purchased from Klein's Sporting Goods in Chicago, that it had been purchased, and the FBI furnished me the information that a money order of some description in the amount of $21.95 had been used as reimbursement for the gun that had been purchased from Klein's in Chicago, and that the purchase date was March 20, 1963. I immediately had some men begin to search the Dallas money order records with the thought that they might have used a U.S. postal money order to buy this gun.
I didn't have any luck, so along about 11 o'clock in the morning, Saturday, I had my boys call the postal inspector. Oh, wait a minute, let's back up.
I had my secretary go out and purchase about half a dozen books on outdoor type magazines such as Field and Stream, with the thought that I might locate this gun to identify it, and I did.
Mr. BELIN. You have what magazine?
Mr. HOLMES. Field and Stream of November 1963.
Mr. BELIN. You found a Field and Stream magazine of just November 1963?
Mr. HOLMES. It was the current magazine on the rack.
Mr. BELIN. You got it to look for a gun and identified it in this magazine?
Is this the page? I will call it Holmes Deposition Exhibit 2.
Mr. HOLMES. Here, page 98.
Mr. BELIN. Well, it is on the back of a page numbered 98, is that right?
Mr. HOLMES. That's right.
Mr. BELIN. Or the front side. I am marking on the top of it, "Holmes Deposition Exhibit 2."
Was that the page you tore out?
Mr. HOLMES. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. I notice there is a magazine or there is a number of guns identified on that page.
Mr. HOLMES. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. I See one circled in red, is that correct?
Mr. HOLMES. That's correct.
Mr. BELIN. Who circled that in red?
Mr. HOLMES. I did.
Mr. BELIN. Then I see that it is a picture with a gun with a scope on it and it says, "6.5 Italian carbine," in big black letters. And underneath it says, "Late military issue. Only 40 inches overall. Weighs 7 lbs. Shows only slight use, test-fired and head spaced, ready for shooting. Turned-down bolt. 6-shot, clip fed, rear sight." And it is marked "$12.78."
Mr. HOLMES. With scope, it is $19.95.
Mr. BELIN. There is a number. That $12.78 says "C20-1196." And underneath that it says, "C20-750, carbine with brand new 4x- 3/4" diameter (illustrated) $19.95." Is that right?
Mr. HOLMES. That's correct.
Mr. BELIN. Then on the lower right-hand corner of the page there is a kind of place for clipping out of coupons It is marked "Klein's Sporting Goods at 227 West Washington Street, Chicago 6, Illinois," then there is a place for a box to be checked. It says, "cash customers, send check or money order in full. Unless otherwise specified, send $1.00 postage and handling on any size order . . . $1.50 on shotgun and rifles."
Then there is a place at the bottom of the page. It is a place for putting the name and address and the city and State, is that correct?
Mr. HOLMES. That's correct.
Mr. BELIN. Now I notice on a piece of scrap paper you have taken the $19.95 which would be the exact amount for the rifle with the scope, and then added the $1.50 for the charge that the coupon says for postage and handling and you come up with a total of $21.45.
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I thought you said the FBI said $21.95?
Mr. HOLMES. He had, and that was the amount of money order I had been looking for. So I had my postal inspector in charge call our Chicago office and suggested that he get an inspector out to Klein's Sporting Goods and recheck it for accuracy, that if our looking at the right gun in the magazine, they were looking for the wrong money order.
Mr. BELIN. So what happened?
Mr. HOLMES. So in about an hour Postal Inspector McGee of Chicago called back then and said that the correct amount was $21.95---$21.45 excuse me, and that the shipping---they had received this money order on March the 13th, whereas I had been looking for March 20.
So then I passed the information to the men who were looking for this money order stub to show which would designate, which would show the number of the money order, and that is the only way you could find one.
I relayed this information to them and told them to start on the 13th because he could have bought it that morning and that he could have gotten it by airmail that afternoon, so they began to search and within 10 minutes they called back and said they had a money order in that amount issued on, I don't know that I show, but it was that money order in an amount issued at the main post office, which is the same place as this post office box was at that time, box 2915 and the money order had been issued early on the morning of March the 12th, 1963.
Mr. BELIN. To whom?
Mr. HOLMES. They are issued in blank. He has to fill it in.
Mr. BELIN. Does it say the name of the person who is purchased--purchasing--
Mr. HOLMES. No; you don't get----
Mr. BELIN. He had to fill it in himself?
Mr. HOLMES. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. You mentioned another post office box, and a new number there. When was that?
Mr. HOLMES. Just now?
Mr. BELIN. Yes, No. 2915?
Mr. HOLMES. That is the box he had rented at the main post office before he went to New Orleans?
Mr. BELIN. When you say the main post office, what city and State?
Mr. HOLMES. Dallas, Tex.
Mr. BELIN. When did you learn about this, if you remember?
Mr. HOLMES. I don't know that I can tell. Some clerk was passing information to me and also it could have been that McGee, this inspector said it was sent to box 2915, in Dallas. I couldn't tell you when I first realized he had this box.
Mr. BELIN. I hand you what has been marked "Holmes Deposition Exhibit 3," and ask you to state what that is?
Mr. HOLMES. That is a photostatic copy of the original box rental application covering the rental of box 2915, at the main post office in Dallas, Tex. which shows that it was completed on October the 9th, 1962. The applicants name was Lee H. Oswald, home address, 3519 Fairmore Avenue, Dallas, Tex. Signed Lee H. Oswald. It shows that the box was closed on May 14, 1963.
Mr. BELIN. Now, it is stamped date box opened, October 9, 1962. And that is the same date that it appears to be written in handwriting at the bottom of it.
Mr. HOLMES. That's correct.
Mr. BELIN. All right. Now, you found this postal money order and then what did you do?
Mr. HOLMES. Off the record, let me ask you something. I questioned him about this box and all the angles with it during this interview.
Mr. BELIN. I am going to get to that.
Mr. HOLMES. I didn't know whether you wanted to put it in there.
Mr. BELIN. I am going to get to that. Then what did you do?
Mr. HOLMES. I gave that information to my boss by telephone. He called Washington immediately. Of course this information included the money order number. This number was transmitted by phone to the chief inspector in Washington, who immediately got the money order center at Washington to begin a
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search, which they use IBM equipment to kick out this money order, and about 7 o'clock Saturday night they did kick out the original money order and sent it over by, so they said, by special conveyance to the Secret Service, chief of Secret Service at Washington now, and it turned out, so they said, to be the correct money order. I asked them by phone as to what it said on it, and it said it had been issued to A. J. Hidell, which to me then was the tip that I had the correct money order. Up to then I didn't know whether I had the correct money order or not.
Mr. BELIN. How did you know about the use of the name A. J. Hidell?
Mr. HOLMES. When the box was opened in the name of Lee H. Oswald. Because for two reasons. I---one is, when he rented the post office box in New Orleans, he used the name of A. J. Hidell as one of the persons entitled to receive mail in that box.
Mr. BELIN. At that time did you know about that?
Mr. HOLMES. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. All right, what else?
Mr. HOLMES. In his billfold the police had found a draft registration card in the name of A. J. Hidell on his person at the time of his arrest, and I had seen it.
Mr. BELIN. Anything else now about this money order? Do you have a record of the number of the money order?
Mr. HOLMES. No; I don't.
Mr. BELIN. All right, what was the next thing you did in connection with the investigation of the assassination?
Mr. HOLMES. Well, throughout the entire period I was feeding change of addresses as bits of information to the FBI and the Secret Service, and sort of a coordinating deal on it, but then about Sunday morning about 9:20----
Mr. BELIN. Pardon me a second. (Discussion off the record.) Anything else now, Mr Holmes?
Mr. HOLMES. I might cover the record of his rental of the post office box in New Orleans. Do you want me to go into that?
Mr. BELIN. All right, go ahead.
Mr. HOLMES. The box rental records at New Orleans show that on June the 3d, 1963, post office box 30061 was rented to L. H. Oswald. Let me see there. Some of my information comes at times I see 30061 and at times I see 30016. I had it two places. One is a written memorandum on that new setup, and the other is what I took over the phone, and both of them show 61.
Mr. BELIN. All right, go ahead.
Mr. HOLMES. I think I got a copy.
Mr. BELIN. That is all right, you can go ahead.
Mr. HOLMES. This is at the Lafayette Square Station in New Orleans. At that time he showed his home address as 657 French Street, New Orleans. On this box rental application card, he showed as being entitled to also receive mail in the box, Marina Oswald, and A.J. Hidell. This box was closed on September 26, 1963, with instructions to forward mail addressed to 2515 West Fifth Street, Irving, Tex.
At the time this information was checked out in New Orleans by Postal Inspector Joe Zarza, two copies of the newspaper called "The Militant," were found in the box, which had not yet been forwarded. But there was a slipup. I hate to admit that.
Mr. BELIN. Anything else?
Mr. HOLMES. I presume my next part in connection with this was when I joined the interrogation period of Oswald on Sunday morning of November 24 at about 9:30 a.m.
Mr. BELIN. All right, now. Let me ask you this. Just what was the occasion of your joining this interrogation? How did you happen to be there?
Mr. HOLMES. I had been in and out of Captain Fritz' office on numerous occasions during this 2 1/2-day period.
On this morning I had no appointment. I actually started to church with my wife. I got to church and I said, "You get out, I am going down and see if I can do something for Captain Fritz. I imagine he is as sleepy as I am."
So I drove directly on down to the police station and walked in, and as I did,
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Captain Fritz motioned to me and said, "We are getting ready to have a last interrogation with Oswald before we transfer him to the county jail. Would you like to join us?"
I said, "I would."
We went into his private room and closed the door, and those present were Captain Will Fritz, of the Dallas Police Department, Forrest V. Sorrels, local agent in charge of Secret Service, and Thomas J. Kelley, inspector, Secret Service, from Washington, and also about three detectives who were not identified to me, but simply were guarding Oswald who was handcuffed and seated at Will Fritz' desk.
Mr. BELIN. All right, now. Will you state if you remember--do you have a written memorandum there of that interview?
Mr. HOLMES. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. I wonder if you would just let me ask you: When did you make your written memorandum?
Mr. HOLMES. On December 17, 1963.
Mr. BELIN. I wonder if, using your memorandum to refresh your recollection, you would just say what was said by any of the people there and just cover the whole thing? I will take it up section by section. Just start out. This started around 9:30, is that it, on Sunday morning?
Mr. HOLMES. Yes, sir. Now, this is my impression, not what he said.
Mr. BELIN. I notice the first paragraph, you have an impression on that? I wonder perhaps what we might do is, I am going to see if I have a copy of this, and if I can, to attach just as a--is this an extra copy that you have here?
Mr. HOLMES. Yes; I guess you can. Let me tear that top off.
Mr. BELIN. I am going to mark this as "Holmes Deposition Exhibit No. 4." This is a memorandum of your interview?
Mr. HOLMES. That I dictated on December 17, 1963.
Mr. BELIN. That is about 4 weeks after the interview took place; is that correct?
Mr. HOLMES. That's correct.
Mr. BELIN. Do you have any notes from which you dictated this interview?
Mr. HOLMES. I had a few notes. I had no reason for such a statement except that about that time the FBI asked me they learned that I had been in on this interrogation, and asked me if I would object to giving them a statement as to what went on in that room, and this is my statement. Part of it was from notes and part of it was from memory.
Mr. BELIN. Now, I notice--well, you might just, without even looking at the memorandum, first just give us your general impression of what went on there.
Mr. HOLMES. There was no formality, to the interrogation. One man would question Oswald. Another would interrupt with a different trend of thought, or something in connection, and it was sort of an informal questioning or interrogation.
Oswald was quite composed. He answered readily those questions that he wanted to answer. He could cut off just like with a knife anything that he didn't want to answer.
And those particular things that he didn't want to answer were anything that pertained with the assassination of the President or the shooting of Officer Tippit. He flatly denied any knowledge of either.
He was not particularly obnoxious. He seemed to be intelligent. He seemed to be clearminded. He seemed to have a good memory, because in questioning him about the boxes, which I had original applications in front of me, he was pretty accurate. He knew box numbers and he answered these questions readily and answered them truthfully, as verified by the box rental applications that I had in front of me.
Mr. BELIN. What was Oswald wearing at the time you saw him?
Mr. HOLMES. He was bareheaded. He had a sport shirt on and slacks, pair of trousers.
Mr. BELIN. What color trousers?
Mr. HOLMES. Sort of a medium. On the light side I would say.
Mr. BELIN. What color shirt?
Mr. HOLMES. I don't recall. It was not a loud shirt. It was not outstanding.
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I don't know what color actually he had on. I do know, I can tell you when he put on the black sweater and all that.
Mr. BELIN. He put on a black sweater?
Mr. HOLMES. Toward the end--that is the last thing on my memorandum.
Mr. BELIN. Now, do you remember Captain Fritz showing a map, showing Oswald a map of the city of Dallas which had been recovered from his room?
Mr. HOLMES. He didn't show the map. He only mentioned the map and asked him about a certain map that had markings on it, and Oswald said, "Well, I presume you have reference to a map that I had in my room that had some X's on it."
And, he said, "Well, tell us about that one. Why were the X's on there? What did that designate?"
And he said that, "I have no automobile. I have no means of conveyance. I have to walk from where I am going most of the time. And I had my applications in with Texas Employment Commission. They furnished me names and addresses of places that had openings like I might could fill, and neighborhood people had furnished me information on jobs I might could get. I was seeking a job, and I would put these markings on this map so that I could plan my itinerary around with less walking, and each one of those represented a place where I went and interviewed for a job."
And he said, "You can check each one of them out if you want to."
Then Captain Fritz mentioned the X at the intersection of Elm and Houston.
Well, he said, "That is the location of the Texas School Depository and I did go there and interview for a job. In fact, I got a job there." He said, "That is all the map amounts to."
Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else about that aspect of the interrogation?
Mr HOLMES. I believe not.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember Inspector Kelley asking Oswald about his religious views?
Mr. HOLMES. Yes. Someone, and I don't recall who. asked the first question on that, but you got that Lenin business in there.
Mr. BELIN. I am deliberately asking you these questions before we get to your memorandum, and I am just trying to get your memory first.
Mr. HOLMES. All right. Someone asked him about what his beliefs were, and he said, "Well," about him being a Communist something. Someone referred to his communism, and he said, "I am not a Communist. I am a Marxist." And they said, what is the difference between Communist and Marxist, and he said, "Well, a Communist is a Lenin Marxist, and I am a true Karl Marxist."
So, this Secret Service inspector asked, "What religion are you?" In other words, I mean, "What faith are you, as far as religion?" And he said, "I have no faith." And then he said, "I suppose you mean the Bible."
"Yes, that is right."
"Well," he said, "I have read the Bible. It is fair reading, but not very interesting. But, as a matter of fact, I am a student of philosophy and I don't consider the Bible as even a reasonable or intelligent philosophy. I don't think much of it," he said.
Mr. BELIN. Did anyone there ask him if Cuba would be better off since the President was assassinated? Do you remember anything about that?
Mr. HOLMES. I don't recall a question on that.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember anyone asking him a question about the rifle, or there was a picture of Oswald holding a rifle. Do you remember anything about that?
Mr. HOLMES. Yes. They said, "We have a picture of you holding"--actually it came up before then in an interrogation of him about this rifle that came to this post office box.
They asked him, "Do you own a rifle?" He said, "No."
Well, "Have you shot a rifle since you have been out of the Marines?"
He said, "No." Then he backed up and said, "Well, possibly a small bore, maybe a .22, but not anything larger since I have left the Marine Corps."
"Do you own a rifle?"
"Absolutely not. How would I afford a rifle. I make $1.25 an hour. I can't hardly feed myself."
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Then he said, "What about this picture of you holding this rifle?"
"Well, I don't know what you are talking about."
He just cut it off. As I recall, he refused to even acknowledge there was such a picture. They had none of these exhibits in the room.
Mr. BELIN. You didn't have the picture at the time in the room when you were there?
Mr. HOLMES. No.
Mr. BELIN. Did anyone say anything about his living on a so-called Neely Street, that you remember? Or Captain Fritz, did he say that he told Oswald that friends had visited him there and that friends had seen Oswald there? Do you remember at this time anything about that?
Mr. HOLMES. I don't remember his answer to it, whether he did answer.
Mr. BELIN. Was anything--pardon me.
Mr. HOLMES. I remember Fritz, I think, describe the fellow, and he just ignored it. He was vague about it.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember any statements that Oswald made about any fight in New Orleans about Marxism or fair play for Cuba or anything? Does that ring a boll with you?
Mr. HOLMES. I knew all about it, and I knew the police records and all, but I don't know that it was brought up in that room at that time.
Mr. BELIN. Was anything in that room--was he asked about knowing Alek Hidell? Or anything about Alek Hidell?
Mr. HOLMES. I brought it up first as to did he ever have a package sent to him from anywhere. I said, "Did you receive mail through this box 2915 under the name of any other name than Lee Oswald," and he said, "Absolutely not."
"What about a package to an A. J. Hidell?"
He said, "No."
"Well, did you order a gun in that name to come there?"
"No, absolutely not."
"Had one come under that name, could this fellow have gotten it?"
He said, "Nobody got mail out of that box but me; no, sir." "Maybe my wife, but I couldn't say for sure whether my wife ever got mail, but it is possible she could have."
"Well, who is A. J. Hidell?" I asked him.
And he said, "I don't know any such person."
I showed him the box rental application for the post office box in New Orleans and I read from it. I said, "Here this shows as being able to receive, being entitled to receive mail is Marina Oswald." And he said, "Well, that is my wife, so what?"
And I said also it says "A. J. Hidell."
"Well, I don't know anything about that."
That is all he would say about it.
Then Captain Fritz interrupted and said, "Well, what about this card we got out of your billfold? This draft registration card, he called it, where it showed A. J. Hidell."
"Well, that is the only time that I recall he kind of flared up and he said, "Now, I have told you all I am going to tell you about that card in my billfold." He said, "You have the card yourself, and you know as much about it as I do." And he showed a little anger. Really the only time that he flared up.
Mr. BELIN. Was there ever any mention at the time you were there of the fact that he had a right to have a lawyer present? Do you remember anything about that at all, or not?
Mr. HOLMES. I don't recall.
Mr. BELIN. Did he ever ask to have a lawyer present? Do you remember anything about that at all?
Mr. HOLMES. Oh, yes; they talked about a lawyer, and he said he had----
Mr. BELIN. What was the conversation? Who said what?
Mr. HOLMES. I don't know who started the conversation, but it had gotten into "Do you have an attorney?" He said, "No."
"Well, do you want an attorney?"
And he said, "No." Then he said, "Well, I tried to get a fellow from New York." But he said he wasn't able to get hold of him.
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And I think he is a Civil Liberties Union lawyer. He mentioned something about he looks after their interests in New York. I don't remember the name, but they discussed that.
Mr. BELIN. Would it be something like Abt?
Mr. HOLMES. Yes; short name. That could well be it.
Mr. BELIN. Anything else? Did he ever ask for any other lawyer or for any lawyer?
Mr. HOLMES. No.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember that while this was going on if the chief of police came to the office?
Mr. HOLMES. Yes. Along toward the end of the interrogation several people kept milling around outside of Captain Fritz' office and I noticed the chief of police out there, and they would rap on the door, and once in a while crack the door and look in, and gave all the appearance of being impatient.
But Captain Fritz is a quiet and deliberate sort of individual and said, "Don't worry about the men. If you got any more questions, ask him."
Mr. BELIN. Who would be the people knocking and tapping on the window and would be impatient?
Mr. HOLMES. It was Chief Curry, and I didn't recognize the others, but there were people who later took him on downstairs, so they were waiting. They wanted to make this transfer, is what it was. In fact, the captain mentioned, he said, "We are going to have a little while to talk. I don't know how long, because they want to effect this transfer."
And everybody assumed that that was why they were getting impatient outside about, they wanted to go ahead and complete the transfer.
Mr. BELIN. Were there glass walls on Captain Fritz' office?
Mr. HOLMES. Yes; with venetian blinds.
Mr. BELIN. Were the venetian blinds closed?
Mr. HOLMES. They were closed, but you could see around the edges and through and every once in a while someone would lift a blind, and once in a while they would crack the door and look in.
Mr. BELIN. Were the venetian blinds inside or outside, or do you know?
Mr. HOLMES. I don't know, to tell you the truth.
Mr. BELIN. About how big was the office?
Mr. HOLMES. Just about as wide as this is.
Mr. BELIN. You want to pace it off here?
Mr. HOLMES. I would say 10 by 15, personally, feet.
Mr. BELIN. How many doors?
Mr. HOLMES. One door.
Mr. BELIN. Were there any other people outside there that morning other than the police officers, that you know of?
Mr. HOLMES. I recognized a couple of FBI agents. I couldn't call their names.
Mr. BELIN. Any press people that you recognized?
Mr. HOLMES. No.
Mr. BELIN. All right, now.
Mr. HOLMES. Of course, when we speak of outside Fritz' office, it is still an inclosure where you go out another door to go into the hall where the public mills around. He had a suite of rooms.
Mr. BELIN. You had one of the rooms in that suite?
Mr. HOLMES. Yes. In fact, he is in charge of all the rooms, but he has one private office of his own, and that is where we were.
Mr. BELIN. You do remember Chief Curry coming in?
Mr. HOLMES. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember any conversation that transpired between Chief Curry and Captain Fritz?
Mr. HOLMES. As Chief Curry came in, someone handed some clothes on a hanger. It was maybe a sports shirt and a couple of pair of slacks, and I recall there were two sweaters and he said, "I will just take one of those sweaters." They gave him one sweater that he did not like. No, he said, "Give me the black one."
So he takes it, a little slip-over sweater. So, while he was putting that on,
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Chief Curry came around the other side of the desk and took Will Fritz over in the corner and they bowed their heads and discussed in an undertone. Apparently, I got the impression they weren't trying to hide anything from us, but they didn't want Oswald to overhear what they were saying. They were mumbling in an undertone and I didn't distinguish one thing that was said.
Mr. BELIN. Did Oswald ask to have a sweater or some clothes brought in?
Mr. HOLMES. Yes. Well, I don't know that he asked. I will take that back. I don't know that he asked. All I know, they handed it in and said, "Do you want any of those clothes, or do you want to change your clothes?"
And he said, "I will take one of the sweaters." They gave him the wrong sweater and he didn't like that and he asked for the other. And they uncuffed him and he slipped his arm in and they handcuffed him back up, and that is the only change. It was a black slipover kind of V-neck sweater.
Then they walked him out of the office and I stayed in the office with the two Secret Service men.
Mr. BELIN. So you didn't accompany Oswald when they left?
Mr. HOLMES. No.
Mr. BELIN. When did you first learn that Oswald had been shot?
Mr. HOLMES. I told Sorrels, I said, "I have my car down the street. Let's go down to my office, because it is directly across the reflecting pool from this School Depository Building and from the sheriff's office and entrance where they will take him in. Let's go down to my office and we can look at it from my window and have a better eye view in case anything happens." And he said. "Well, I have my car down there too, and I will need to have it to get back to my office, so I will just take my own car."
So, I immediately went downstairs and got in my car and proceeded to my office, which probably took me ten minutes.
When I got to the sidewalk of the terminal annex I parked my car and walked right in the door. One of the inspectors who was watching this box, they still had the surveillance on the box---said, "Well, they got Oswald now."
I said, "What are you talking about?"
"Well, they have shot Oswald."
They had a radio sitting there going. I said, "That is not right. That is misinformation, because it hasn't been 5 or 7 or 8 minutes that I left him in his presence and he was very much alive then" And just then they kept talking on the radio, and I got to listening, and sure enough, they shot him.
Mr. BELIN. Where was your car parked? Was it parked in the basement where they were going to transfer Oswald?
Mr. HOLMES. No; out on the street.
Mr. BELIN. Now, did you ever talk to Captain Fritz or any police officer about Oswald getting shot?
Mr. HOLMES. I haven't talked or discussed this in any way.
Mr. BELIN. Not since then with any other police officer?
Mr. HOLMES. No, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Was there anything said in that interrogation of Lee. Harvey Oswald pertaining to the Fair Play for Cuba Committee, that you remember?
Mr. HOLMES. When I was discussing with him about rental application for Box No. 6225 at the terminal annex, I asked him if he had shown that anyone else was entitled to get mail in that box and he said, "No."
I said, "Who did you show as your--what did you show as your business?
And he said, "I didn't show anything."
I said, "Well, your box rental application here says, 'Fair Play for Cuba Committee and the American Civil Liberties Union'."
Well, he said, "Maybe that is right, I did put them on there."
I said, "Did they, anyone, who paid for the box?"
He said, "I paid for it out of my own personal money."
"Did you rent it in the name of these organizations?"
And he said, "No."
He said, "I don't know why I put it on." He wouldn't talk about it.
Mr. BELIN. Did you talk about whether he believed in the Fair Play for Cuba Committee?
Mr. HOLMES. No; we didn't get into that. We did discuss the organization
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of it in New Orleans, and I got the impression that Captain Fritz was trying to get out of him the fact that he was the head man or the president of it, and he kept evading that and would be real evasive. But finally he admitted that he was, he said, "Actually, it was a loosely organized thing and we had no officers, but probably you could call me the secretary of it because I did collect money." In other words, "Secretary-Treasurer, because I did try to collect a little money to get literature and work with."
Then I asked ---oh, he mentioned, too, he said, "In New York they have a well organized or a better organization."
Well, I asked him, or one of us asked him about, "Is that why you came to Dallas, to organize a cell of this organization in Dallas?" And he said, "No, not at all."
"Did you work on it or intend to organize here in Dallas?
"No," he said, "I didn't. I was too busy trying to get a job." That is about all he said about it.
Mr. BELIN. Did anyone say anything about Oswald saying anything about his leaving the Texas School Book Depository after the shooting?
Mr. HOLMES. He said, as I remember, actually, in answer to questions there, he mentioned that when lunchtime came, one of the Negro employees asked him if. he would like to sit and each lunch with him, and he said, "Yes, but I can't go right now." He said, "You go and take the elevator on down." No, he said, "You go ahead, but send the elevator back up."
He didn't say up where, and he didn't mention what floor he was on. Nobody seemed to ask him.
You see, I assumed that obvious questions like that had been asked in previous interrogation. So I didn't interrupt too much, but he said, "Send the elevator back up to me."
Then he said when all this commotion started, "I just went on downstairs." And he didn't say whether he took the elevator or not. He said, "I went down, and as I started to go out and see what it was all about, a police officer stopped me just before I got to the front door, and started to ask me some questions, and my superintendent of the place stepped up and told the officers that I am one of the employees of the building, so he told me to step aside for a little bit and we will get to you later. Then I just went on out in the crowd to see what it was all about."
And he wouldn't tell what happened then.
Mr. BELIN. Did he say where he was at the time of the shooting?
Mr. HOLMES. He just said he was still up in the building when the commotion-- he kind of----
Mr. BELIN. Did he gesture with his hands, do you remember?
Mr. HOLMES. He talked with his hands all the time. He was handcuffed, but he was quiet--well, he was not what you call a stoic phlegmatic person. He is very definite with his talk and his eyes and his head, and he goes like that, you see.
Mr. BELIN. Did Oswald say anything about seeing a man with a crewcut in front of the building as he was about to leave it? Do you remember anything about that?
Mr. HOLMES. No.
Mr. BELIN. You don't remember anything about that. Did he say anything about telling a man about going to a pay phone in the building?
Mr. HOLMES. Policeman rushed--I take it back---I don't know whether he said a policeman or not--a man came rushing by and said, "Where's your telephone?"
And the man showed him some kind of credential and I don't know that he identified the credential, so he might not have been a police officer, and said I am so and so, and shoved something at me which I didn't look at and said, "Where is the telephone?"
And I said, "Right there," and just pointed in to the phone, and I went on out.
Mr. BELIN. Did Oswald say why he left the building?
Mr. HOLMES. No; other than just said he talked about this commotion and went out to see what it was about.
Mr. BELIN. Did Oswald say how he got home, if he did get home?
Mr. HOLMES. They didn't--we didn't go into that. I just assumed that they
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had covered all that. Nobody asked him about from the minute he walked out the door as to what happened to him, except somebody asked him about the shooting of Tippit, and he said, "I don't know what you are talking about."
He said, "The only thing that I am in here for is because I popped a policeman in the nose in a theatre on Jefferson Avenue, which I readily admit I did, because I was protecting myself."
Mr. BELIN. Because he was what?
Mr. HOLMES. "Protecting myself."
Mr. BELIN. Now, I want you now to take a look for the first time during our interview here at Holmes Deposition Exhibit 4, and thus far you have been testifying just from memory, is that correct?
Mr. HOLMES. Yes; sir.
Mr. BELIN. Now, I notice that it starts out, that it is in an informal memorandum that you put together, and then the second paragraph, you have the general impression that Oswald appeared confused or in doubt.
I wonder if you would read that second paragraph and see if there is anything that you remember to elaborate on at this time.
Mr. HOLMES. Read it aloud or to myself?
Mr. BELIN. No; to yourself, and see if there is anything you can remember to elaborate.
Mr. HOLMES. The only part I have not covered would be the impression that I received that he had disciplined his mind and his reflexes to a point where I doubt if he would even have been a good subject to a polygraph test, a lie detector.
Mr. BELIN. Anything else you would care to elaborate?
Mr. HOLMES. I believe not.
Mr. BELIN. Well, I wonder then if you would take a look at the second paragraph that begins "P.O. Boxes."
That is really the third paragraph on the page.
Mr. HOLMES. No; I think I have, if I remember that pretty well.
Mr. BELIN. All right, you take a look at the next paragraph, which is the last paragraph on the first page.
Mr. HOLMES. I believe there would be nothing to elaborate or change on it.
Mr. BELIN. Turn to page 2 on the first paragraph of the next page.
Mr. HOLMES. The only thing there that I haven't covered would be that the reason these various post office boxes wherever he went was that it was much easier to have his mail reach him through post office forwarding orders than it was to try to get somebody over in Russia to change the address on a newspaper.
Mr. BELIN. By the way, did he talk about anything at all about his life in Russia?
Mr. HOLMES. He mentioned only that he met his wife in Minsk. That was her home town.
Mr. BELIN. Anything else?
Mr. HOLMES. It seemed like it was a dance. He met her at a dance, he told us.
Mr. BELIN. Anything else?
Mr. HOLMES. That he took these two local newspapers for her benefit, because it was local news to her and that was the reason he was getting those papers. She enjoyed reading about the home folks.
Mr. BELIN. Anything else about Russia? Did he ever say anything about going to Mexico? Was that ever covered?
Mr. HOLMES. Yes. To the extent that mostly about--well--he didn't spend, "Where did you get the money?" He didn't have much money and he said it didn't cost much money. He did say that where he stayed it cost $26 some odd, small ridiculous amount to eat, and another ridiculous small amount to stay all night, and that he went to the Mexican Embassy to try to get this permission to go to Russia by Cuba, but most of the talks that he wanted to talk about was how he got by with a little amount.
They said, "Well, who furnished you the money to go to Mexico?"
"Well, it didn't take much money." And it was along that angle, was the conversation.
Mr. BELIN. Did he admit that he went to Mexico?
Mr. HOLMES. Oh, yes.
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Mr. BELIN. Did he say what community in Mexico he went to?
Mr. HOLMES. Mexico City.
Mr. BELIN. Did he say what he did while he was there?
Mr. HOLMES. He went to the Mexican consulate, I guess.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. BELIN. Now, with regard to this Mexican trip, did he say who he saw in Mexico?
Mr. HOLMES. Only that he went to the Mexican consulate or Embassy or something and wanted to get permission, or whatever it took to get to Cuba. They refused him and he became angry and he said he burst out of there, and I don't know. I don't recall now why he went into the business about how mad it made him.
He goes over to the Russian Embassy. He was already at the American. This was the Mexican--he wanted to go to Cuba.
Then he went to the Russian Embassy and he said, because he said then he wanted to go to Russia by way of Cuba, still trying to get to Cuba and try that angle and they refused and said, "Come back in 30 days," or something like that. And, he went out of there angry and disgusted.
Mr. BELIN. Did he go to the Cuban Embassy, did he say or not?
Mr. HOLMES. He may have gone there first, but the best of my recollection, it might have been Cuban and then the Russian, wherever he went at first, he wanted to get to Cuba, and then he went to the Russian to go by Cuba.
Mr. BELIN. Did he say why he wanted to go to Cuba?
Mr. HOLMES. No.
Mr. BELIN. Did--this wasn't reported in your interview in the memorandum that you wrote?
Mr. HOLMES. No.
Mr. BELIN. Is this something that you think you might have picked up from just reading the papers, or is this something you remember hearing?
Mr. HOLMES. That is what he said in there.
Mr. BELIN. All right; I want to go back to page 2 of this memorandum.
I believe we went through the first paragraph on page 2 when you said that there wasn't anything you cared to add there other than what is reported on this Holmes Deposition Exhibit 4?
Mr. HOLMES. Except what he mentioned about it was easier about the forwarding orders of newspapers. Otherwise, no change.
Mr. BELIN. Now, what about the next paragraph on page 2?
Mr. HOLMES. I think I have covered that.
Mr. BELIN. All right, then. The next paragraph on page 2, which is the third and last paragraph on the page.
Mr. HOLMES. I believe I have mentioned the fact that he was evasive about whether he was actually a member of the American Civil Liberties Union. In this statement I have mentioned that he was evasive about it.
Mr. BELIN. Does that statement cover everything, or is there anything you care to add to that statement?
Mr. HOLMES. I can't think of anything of any particular importance there.
Mr. BELIN. Then turn to page 3, the first paragraph. Is there anything you can or care to add to that paragraph that isn't covered right here?
Mr. HOLMES. All right as is.
Mr. BELIN. What about the second paragraph on page 3?
Mr. HOLMES. I have covered that.
Mr. BELIN. What about the third paragraph which begins with "Marine Corps Service."
Mr. HOLMES. I don't believe that I discussed that yet.
Mr. BELIN. You haven't discussed it, but is there anything you care to add other than what is written on there?
Mr. HOLMES. No.
Mr. BELIN. Did he indicate anything else about Governor Connally?
Mr. HOLMES. No. I have covered that in there. In fact, I got the distinct impression that he showed no flareup, no animosity when Connally's name was mentioned. He simply considered him--somebody was shuffling the papers
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around, and he had no particular animosity toward him. I remember that distinctly.
Mr. BELIN. Did he seem to have any animosity toward President Kennedy?
Mr. HOLMES. No.
Mr. BELIN. Now, take a look at the first paragraph on page 3 and read that and see if there is anything you care to add to that?
Mr. HOLMES. No; I believe not.
Mr. BELIN. What about the fifth paragraph on the page?
Mr. HOLMES. I haven't discussed that.
Mr. BELIN. Is there anything you would care to add to that?
Mr. HOLMES. No, sir. That is as he stated it.
Mr. BELIN. What about the last paragraph on page 3?
Mr. HOLMES. That is as I recall it at the time.
Mr. BELIN. Now, in the last paragraph on page 3, it says that when asked why he went to visit his wife on Thursday night, whereas he normally visited her on the weekends, and he said on that particular weekend there was going to be a party for children. They were having a house full of children and he didn't want to be around at such a time. And, therefore, he made the weekly visit on Thursday night?
Mr. HOLMES. That's right.
Mr. BELIN. Did anyone question him about curtain rods, that you remember?
Mr. HOLMES. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. What was that about curtain rods?
Mr. HOLMES. Asked him if he brought a sack out when he got in the car with this young fellow that hauled him and he said, "Yes."
"What was in the sack?"
"Well, my lunch."
"What size sack did you have?"
He said, "Oh, I don't know what size sack. You don't always get a sack that fits your sandwiches. It might be a big sack."
"Was it a long sack?''
"Well, it could have been"
"What did you do with it?"
"Carried it in my lap."
"You didn't put it over in the back seat?"
"No." He said he wouldn't have done that.
"Well, someone said the fellow that hauled you said you had a long package which you said was curtain rods you were taking to somebody at work and you laid it over on the back seat."
He said, "Well, they was just mistaken. That must have been some other time he picked me up."
That is all he said about it.
Mr. BELIN. Were there any other questions asked about curtain rods.
Mr. HOLMES. I don't recall.
Mr. BELIN. All right, I turn to the top of page 4, which is the next paragraph, and I see that you have this recorded in your memorandum. You have this all recorded here except you don't mention the sentence about the curtain rods?
Mr. HOLMES. So that has been elaborated on in that paragraph.
Mr. BELIN. All right, anything else you care to elaborate on that first paragraph on page 4?
Mr. HOLMES. I believe not.
Mr. BELIN. All right, the second paragraph on page 4 pertaining to his whereabouts at the time of the shooting. Would you care to elaborate on that?
Mr. HOLMES. I believe it is just about as I have stated. No elaboration.
Mr. BELIN. Then the third paragraph on page 4 was about an A. J. Hidell identification card. Would you care to read that and see if there is anything on that?
Mr. HOLMES. I believe not.
Mr. BELIN. By the way, where did this policeman stop him when he was coming down the stairs at the Book Depository on the day of the shooting?
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Mr. HOLMES. He said it was in the vestibule.
Mr. BELIN. He said he was in the vestibule?
Mr. HOLMES. Or approaching the door to the vestibule. He was just coming, apparently, and I have never been in there myself. Apparently there is two sets of doors, and he had come out to this front part.
Mr. BELIN. Did he state it was on what floor?
Mr. HOLMES. First floor. The front entrance to the first floor.
Mr. BELIN. Did he say anything about a Coca Cola or anything like that, if you remember?
Mr. HOLMES. Seems like he said he was drinking a Coca Cola, standing there by the Coca Cola machine drinking a Coca Cola.
Mr. BELIN. Anything else?
Mr. HOLMES. Nothing more than what I have already told you on it.
Mr. BELIN. Anything else that you care to add to the third paragraph on page 4?
Mr. HOLMES. I believe not.
Mr. BELIN. Now, here in the fourth paragraph, which is the last paragraph of page 4, the last paragraph of your memorandum, anything else you care to add to that?
Mr. HOLMES. I believe not.
Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else that we haven't covered that you think might be helpful here and you think we ought to talk about, Mr. Holmes? Have you found now in your records the money order number that was involved in the purchase of the rifle?
Mr. HOLMES. The money order number that was found in Washington and matched the original money order was number 2--202--130--462, issued at the main office in Dallas, Tex., on March 12, 1963, in the amount of $21.45.
Mr. BELIN. Do you have any information on the money order for the pistol or how the pistol was paid for, or was there a money order?
Mr. HOLMES. No, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Now, Mr. Holmes, I wonder if you could try and think if there is anything else that you remember Oswald saying about where he was during the period prior or shortly prior to, and then at the time of the assassination?
Mr. HOLMES. Nothing more than I have already said. If you want me to repeat that?
Mr. BELIN. Go ahead and repeat it.
Mr. HOLMES. See if I say it the same way?
Mr. BELIN. Yes.
Mr. HOLMES. He said when lunchtime came he was working in one of the upper floors with a Negro.
The Negro said, "Come on and let's eat lunch together."
Apparently both of them having a sack lunch. And he said, "You go ahead, send the elevator back up to me and I will come down just as soon as I am finished."
And he didn't say what he was doing. There was a commotion outside, which he later rushed downstairs to go out to see what was going on. He didn't say whether he took the stairs down. He didn't say whether he took the elevator down.
But he went downstairs, and as he went out the front, it seems as though he did have a coke with him, or he stopped at the coke machine, or somebody else was trying to get a coke, but there was a coke involved.
He mentioned something about a coke. But a police officer asked him who he was, and just as he started to identify himself, his superintendent came up and said, "He is one of our men." And the policeman said, "Well, you step aside for a little bit."
Then another man rushed in past him as he started out the door, in this vestibule part of it, and flashed some kind of credential and he said, "Where is your telephone, where is your telephone, and said I am so and so, where is your telephone."
And he said, "I didn't look at the credential. I don't know who he said he was, and I just pointed to the phone and said, 'there it is,' and went on out the door."
Mr. BELIN. Anything else?
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Mr. HOLMES. I believe not.
Mr. BELIN. Mr. Holmes, when we first met, we sat down and I practically started taking testimony right away, is that correct?
Mr. HOLMES. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Is there anything in the short conversation we had before we started taking testimony about this matter that we haven't discussed here on the record?
Mr. HOLMES. No, sir.
Mr. BELIN. For the record, I would like to offer as a part of this deposition Holmes Exhibits 1, 2, 3, and 4, and in addition, I don't know for the record, but I would like to offer--at some of the depositions we have had delays, but will you have copies made, madam reporter?
And one final thing, you have the right, if you want, to come back and read the deposition and sign, or else you let it go to us without signing or-coming back without reading it. Do you want to waive it or come back?
Mr. HOLMES. I will waive it.
Mr. BELIN. One other thing. I better mark this as Holmes Deposition Exhibit 5.
Mr. HOLMES. I want to save that.
Mr. BELIN. Mr. Holmes, I hand you Holmes Deposition Exhibit 5 and ask you to state if you will what this is.
Mr. HOLMES. It is a circular-type sheet simulating a wanted circular as put out by the post office department or the FBI showing a profile view. That is two separate views of President Kennedy.
Mr. BELIN. The one that says "Wanted for Treason"?
Mr. HOLMES. Underneath his picture in large type is "Wanted for Treason."
Mr. BELIN. How did you get ahold of this document, or what is the fact involved?
Mr. HOLMES. This was handed to me by one of the postal supervisors who brought it to my office stating that it had been brought in by one of the carriers that found it in a collection box on his route.
Mr. BELIN. On what day, do you know, offhand, in relation to the assassination?
Mr. HOLMES. He brought that in the afternoon of the assassination, November 22.
Mr. BELIN. Do you know how many of these were passed out?
Mr. HOLMES. No; except that it came from various sources. They were being passed out at neighborhood shopping centers, and numerous of them were brought in. This supervisor said that they had dozens of them down there, that it had come in by the carrier.
Mr. BELIN. I believe you also said that--is there anything else in regards to Holmes Deposition Exhibit 5 you care to add?
Mr. HOLMES. I believe not.
Mr. BELIN. Now, you showed us your deposition Exhibit 1, this application for a post office box dated November 1, 1963, of Lee Harvey Oswald, and you said this was at the terminal annex?
Mr. HOLMES. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. How can you tell?
Mr. HOLMES. Because I recognized it as being the application, and also---I mean the application that I obtained at the terminal annex, and also the 6,000 designates that series of boxes at the terminal annex.
Mr. BELIN. And you also showed me an application for box 5475, dated November 7, 1963. Is that also the terminal annex?
Mr. HOLMES. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. This was taken out by whom?
Mr. HOLMES. That is an application taken out by Jack Ruby on November 7, 1963, showing his firm name as being Earl Products; business, merchandising.
Mr. BELIN. We will put this as Holmes Deposition Exhibit 6. Do you know of any connection of your own knowledge between Jack Ruby and Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr. HOLMES. No, sir; I know of none.
Mr. BELIN. Anything else you can say about Holmes Deposition Exhibit 6?
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Mr. HOLMES. I believe not.
Mr. BELIN. Other than the fact that within a week of one another these two applications were taken out at the same post office?
Mr. HOLMES. That is the only significance that it has, as far as I am concerned.
Mr. BELIN. We will offer in evidence Holmes Deposition Exhibits 5 and 6, in addition to 1 through 4.
Let the record show that the original of Holmes Deposition Exhibit 5 will be returned to Mr. Holmes, and we will just for our records have copies made by the court reporter.
Mr. HOLMES. I have a photocopy machine in my office.
Mr. BELIN. Mr. Holmes, you have also asked me to make a photostatic copy of Holmes Deposition Exhibit 2 and you keep the original. This would be satisfactory for our purposes. This is the advertisement you cut out. Do you suppose you could get this to the court reporter yourself? Would you take the photostats?
Mr. HOLMES. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Mr. Holmes, we want to certainly thank you for all the cooperation you have given the President's Commission.
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James W. Bookhout
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TESTIMONY OF JAMES W. BOOKHOUT
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