Testimony Of J. Herbert Sawyer

Mr. BELIN. Would you stand and raise your right hand.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. SAWYER. I do.
Mr. BELIN. What As your occupation?
Mr. SAWYER. Inspector of Police.
Mr. BELIN. Of what Police Department?
Mr. SAWYER. Dallas Police Department.
Mr. BELIN. You live here in Dallas?
Mr. SAWYER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Inspector, how long have you been with the Police Department?
Mr. SAWYER. 23 years.
Mr. BELIN. That would be then you came to the Police Department around 1941 or so?
Mr. SAWYER. 1941, is right.
Mr. BELIN. You have been with them ever since 1941?
Mr. SAWYER. Except for a brief hitch in the Service during the war.
Mr. BELIN. What did you do in the Service?
Mr. SAWYER. I was a yeoman in the Navy.
Mr. BELIN. Honorable discharge?
Mr. SAWYER. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Prior to going into the Service, what did you do?
Mr. SAWYER. Policeman.
Mr. BELIN. Before you went into the Service?
Mr. SAWYER. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Did you go to school here in Dallas?
Mr. SAWYER. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Graduated from high school?
Mr. SAWYER. Yes. I didn't graduate. I lacked half a year.
Mr. BELIN. Then you got out and you went in--did you go right on the police force then?
Mr. SAWYER. No.
Mr. BELIN. What did you do?
Mr. SAWYER. I worked as credit manager in a jewelry company. This was immediately prior to coming to the police department.
Before that, I was a doorman at the Mural Room of the Baker Hotel.
Mr. BELIN. When you first got out of high school, what did you do?
Mr. SAWYER. I went out to California and went to work as a clerk in a grocery store.
Mr. BELIN. What did you do after that?
Mr. SAWYER. Came back to Dallas and went to Business College, and then I went to work as a doorman at the Mural Room of the Baker Hotel. And then from there I went to the jewelry, and later became credit manager.
Mr. BELIN. And then after that?
Mr. SAWYER. Then to the Police Department.
Mr. BELIN. You have been with the Police Department ever since except for this time in the Navy?
Mr. SAWYER. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. How old are you?
Mr. SAWYER. 47.
Mr. BELIN. You are married?
Mr. SAWYER. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Inspector, were you on duty on November 22, 1963?
Mr. SAWYER. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. By the way, were you an Inspector at that time?
Mr. SAWYER. I was.
Mr. BELIN. Where were you stationed with reference to the motorcade? Just what were your duties?
Mr. SAWYER. I had charge of the crowd detail on Main Street from Akard to Harwood.
Mr. BELIN. After the motorcade passed, what did you do?
Mr. SAWYER. I headed west on Main Street.
Mr. BELIN. Did you immediately get in your car after the motorcade passed?
Mr. SAWYER. Well, not immediately, because the crowd was real thick and completely surrounded the car, but I did as soon as it was feasible to get back in the car.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember where your car was parked?
Mr. SAWYER. Yes. It was parked on Ervay Street, at the intersection of Ervay and Main, but it was, well, it was on the north side of Main Street on Ervay. It runs parallel to Main Street.
Mr. BELIN. All right, you got in your car shortly after the motorcade passed then?
Mr. SAWYER. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?
Mr. SAWYER. Well, I headed west, or tried to. I had to wait until the crowd cleared out, and as soon as the crowd cleared enough, I headed west on Main Street.
Mr. BELIN. Any particular reason why you headed west on Main Street?
Mr. SAWYER. Because that was the way the car was pointed at the time I got in.
Mr. BELIN. All right, then what did you do as you went west on Main Street?
Mr. SAWYER. I just went real slow down the street because of people crossing, and at the time, the radio broadcast came in about a lot of activity down at the lower end around Houston and Elm Street.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what radio broadcast this is? Who broadcast it?
Mr. SAWYER. I heard Sheriff Decker come on the radio and tell the dispatcher to get all of his men over to, and I thought he said Texas School Book Depository, but at least that was the overall gist of the conversation. That is what I gathered. He may not have said Texas School Book Depository, but the Texas School Book Depository was mentioned in the broadcasts that were made at that time.
Mr. BELIN. Was this on Channel 1 or Channel 2 if you remember?
Mr. SAWYER. Channel 2, I am sure.
Mr. BELIN. Did Sheriff Decker have any particular call number at all, or not, in your police number system?
Mr. SAWYER. No. I was wondering why he come on our radio, but then I think that he was with Chief Curry and probably using that radio.
Mr. BELIN. All right, in any event, a call was made from Chief Curry's car?
Mr. SAWYER. Well, this I don't know either. I don't know what car it was made from, but I think it was Sheriff Decker talking. I could recognize his voice, yes.
Mr. BELIN. What did you do then?
Mr. SAWYER. Then I went on down to the Texas Book Depository.
Mr. BELIN. Where did you park your car?
Mr. SAWYER. In front of the Texas School Book Depository.
Mr. BELIN. In front of the main entrance there?
Mr. SAWYER. In front of the main entrance.
Mr. BELIN. What did you do then?
Mr. SAWYER. Immediately went into---well, talked to some of the officers around there who told me the story that they had thought some shots had come from one of the floors in the building, and I think the fifth floor was mentioned, but nobody seemed to know who the shots were directed at or what had actually happened, except there had been a shooting there at the time the President's motorcade had gone by.
And I went with a couple of officers and a man who I believed worked in the building. The elevator was just to the right of the main entrance, and we went to the top floor, which was pointed out to me by this other man as being the floor that we were talking about. We had talked about the fifth floor. And we went back to the storage area and looked around and didn't see anything.
Mr. BELIN. Now you took an elevator up, is that correct?
Mr. SAWYER. That's right.
Mr. BELIN. The route that you took to the elevator, you went to the front door?
Mr. SAWYER. Right.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?
Mr. SAWYER. We got into the elevator. We run into this man.
Mr. BELIN. Well, when you say you got into the elevator, where was the elevator as you walked in the front door?
Mr. SAWYER. It was to the right.
Mr. BELIN. To the right?
Mr. SAWYER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Was it a freight elevator or a passenger elevator?
Mr. SAWYER. The best of my recollection, it was a passenger elevator.
Mr. BELIN. Did you push for the top button in that elevator?
Mr. SAWYER. Well, I don't know who pushed it, but we went up to the top floor.
Mr. BELIN. You went up to the top floor that the elevator would go to?
Mr. SAWYER. That's right.
Mr. BELIN. You got off, and were there officers there?
Mr. SAWYER. There was one or two other officers with me.
Mr. BELIN. Now when you got off, you say you went into the back there into a warehouse area?
Mr. SAWYER. Storage area; what appeared to be a storage area.
Mr. BELIN. Did you go into any place other than a warehouse or storage area?
Mr. SAWYER. No.
Mr. BELIN. Was there anything other than a warehouse or storage area there?
Mr. SAWYER. Well, to one side I could see an office over there with people in it. Some women that apparently were office workers.
Mr. BELIN. Now Inspector, what did you do then?
Mr. SAWYER. Well, I didn't see anything that was out of the ordinary, so I immediately came back downstairs to check the security on the building.
Mr. BELIN. When you say check the security on the building, what do you mean by that?
Mr. SAWYER. Well, to be sure it was covered off properly, and then posted two men on the front entrance with instructions not to let anyone in or out.
Mr. BELIN. What about the rear entrance?
Mr. SAWYER. We'll, I also had the sergeant go around and check to be sure that all of those were covered, although he told me that they were already covered.
Mr. BELIN. When was the order given to cover the front entrance of the building?
Mr. SAWYER. Well, they had it covered when I got there. There were officers all around the front. The only thing I don't think had been done by the time I got there, was the instructions not to let anybody in or out.
Mr. BELIN. All right, now, did you give the instructions not to let anyone in or out?
Mr. SAWYER. I did.
Mr. BELIN. Did you give those instructions before or after you came down from the fourth floor or top floor?
Mr. SAWYER. After I got down.
Mr. BELIN. So your procedure, if I understand it, was this. You were driving on Main Street when you heard Sheriff Decker on the radio?
Mr. SAWYER. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Inspector, to try and reconstruct the time of sealing off the building, I believe you said that before you got to the building or at about the time you got to the building, you thought that you heard something about the Texas School Book Depository over the radio?
Mr. SAWYER. Right.
Mr. BELIN. At least some time before you left your car, is that correct?
Mr. SAWYER. Yes; it would have to be, in order to hear it.
Mr. BELIN. Now, I have with me the transcript of the radio log here of November 22, and I notice that, according to the log, at 12:30, and you have examined it, there appears there is a statement by Chief Curry, and then something by Sheriff Decker concerning, well, we'd better call this Sawyer's Deposition Exhibit A, which is a transcript of the radio log, and it reads right now--we will try and restaple it later on--but right now, Page 2 and 3 are reversed insofar as the order is concerned.
You see at 12:28 p.m., on this exhibit Curry calls in that they are near the triple underpass, and then at 12:30 p.m., it says, "Station Break," is that right?
Mr. SAWYER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Then the next thing that goes on, it is Number 1, which is Chief Curry's number, am I correct in that?
Mr. SAWYER. Right.
Mr. BELIN. Then according to the transcript, the statement is made you might just read it here in front of you: "Go to the hospital, officers, Parkland Hospital, have them stand by. Get men on top of the underpass, see what happened up there, go up to the overpass. Have Parkland stand by." You see these words here, Inspector Sawyer?
Mr. SAWYER. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Then on a continuation, "Dallas-l," which is marked in by someone as Sheriff Decker says: "I'm sure it's going to take some time to get your men in there. Put every one of my men there." Then there is a call back to Curry from 531, which is your home station, is that correct?
Mr. SAWYER. That's right. I really didn't quite understand all of it.
Mr. BELIN. Then Curry is quoted as saying: "Notify Station 5 to move all men available out of my department back into the railroad yard and try to determine what happened and hold everything secure until homicide and other investigators can get in there."
Mr. SAWYER. That is Decker speaking there.
Mr. BELIN. That is Decker?
Mr. SAWYER. That's right.
Mr. BELIN. You believe that is what Decker said?
Mr. SAWYER. That is what he said, yes, that's right.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Mr. SAWYER. His number is Dallas-l, and they are talking to 1. They have that confused.
Mr. BELIN. Well, Curry is 1 also?
Mr. SAWYER. That's right.
Mr. BELIN. But I think they were riding in the same car?
Mr. SAWYER. That might be correct, but this is actually Decker's voice here, and that is what he had to say.
Mr. BELIN. Well, then, the comment is made "Notify Station 5----"
Mr. SAWYER. That is the Sheriffs Office.
Mr. BELIN. "To move all men available out of my Department back into the railroad yard----"
And that you feel is Decker talking because of the reference to Station 5?
Mr. SAWYER. Also, my memory serves that it was his voice that made that.
Mr. BELIN. All right, then, at 12:31, is a notation there that quotes, "It looks like the President has been hit."
Then there doesn't appear to be anything pertaining to where the shots might have come from until we see at 12:34, there is a call from officer, it says No. 136, that states, "A passer-by states the shots came from Texas School Book Depository Building.

This is the first reference in the log about the Texas School Book Depository, is that correct?
Mr. SAWYER. That's correct.
Mr. BELIN. Do you feel that you heard in your car some reference to the Texas School Book Depository building?
Mr. SAWYER. I do.
Mr. BELIN. Would it be fair for me to assume then that you had not at least completely left your car by 12:34 p.m?
Mr. SAWYER. Correct.
Mr. BELIN. Then when you got to the Texas School Book Depository, well, you got out of the car and talked to some people or to some officers?
Mr. SAWYER. Officers.
Mr. BELIN. And then what did the officers tell you?
Mr. SAWYER. That their information was that the shots had come from the fifth floor of the Texas School Book Depository.
Mr. BELIN. Did any officers give you any other information about the source of the shots other than the fact that it came from the Texas School Book Depository, at that particular time?
Mr. SAWYER. I can't say whether it was officers or who, but there was a reference also made to the overpass.
Mr. BELIN. All right, in any event--pardon me, do you have anything else to add?
Mr. SAWYER. Also, there was a broadcast here in the transcript about the railroad yard.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Mr. SAWYER. And this could be part of what I was thinking about, or what I had heard, was this broadcast on the radio about the railroad yard.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? You went inside the building, is that correct?
Mr. SAWYER. We immediately went inside the building. I took--I believe Sgt. Harkness may have gone with me. I am not positive of that.
Mr. BELIN. Was the elevator on the first floor when you got there, or did you have to wait for it to come down?
Mr. SAWYER. Best of my recollection, it was there.
Mr. BELIN. You got to the elevator, went up, looked around back there. How long did you spend up there at the top floor that the elevator took you to?
Mr. SAWYER. Just took a quick look around and made sure there was nobody hiding on that floor. I doubt if it took over a minute at the most.
Mr. BELIN. To go up and look around and come down?
Mr. SAWYER. To look around on the floor. How long it took to go up, it couldn't have been over 3 minutes at the most from the time we left, got up and back down.
Mr. BELIN. Then that would put it around no sooner than 12:37, if you heard the call at 12:34?
Mr. SAWYER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Then you got down and what did you do?
Mr. SAWYER. I asked the Sergeant to doublecheck the security around the building, and then I took two patrolmen and stationed them at the front door and told them, with instructions not to let anybody in or out.
Mr. BELIN. Now up to the time you did this, had anyone else sealed off the building, that you know of?
Mr. SAWYER. When I arrived, the sergeant told me he had the building sealed off. There were officers all around the building. To the best of my recollection, there was no officer actually stationed on the front door, at the front door. There was some on the sidewalk in front of the front door, and also, as far as I know, had no instructions been issued to anyone to let anybody in or out.
Mr. BELIN. So yours would have been the first instructions to stop traffic from coming in and out of the front door, am I correct in that?
Mr. SAWYER. That's right.
Mr. BELIN. All right, anybody that would have been seen leaving the building would have been stopped and interrogated by the officers that were there? Even before you instructed them?
Mr. SAWYER. Yes, because they were looking for something or anything, and I know that anybody coming out of the back doors, from what the Sergeant told me, they would have stopped them, too.
Mr. BELIN. What happened at the front door now. There were people standing. out on the area of the steps, were there not?
Mr. SAWYER. No. There were some people around, yes.
Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether or not any of those would have been stopped?
Mr. SAWYER. For sure, no; I don't.
Mr. BELIN. Now after you got down and you issued these orders, then what did you
Mr. SAWYER. I set up a command post in front. The various officers were bringing up different witnesses who had seen various things, and I saw that this was quite an involved situation. It was so many of these people that had information, that I knew I didn't have time to take this information down, and by this time several deputy sheriffs were standing there, and one of them, I think he was a supervisor, I had his name at one time, I can't think of it now, was there, and he offered the use of an interrogation room of Sheriff Decker's office, I think he said, for interrogating these people.
Mr. BELIN. That is located down the street a little bit there?
Mr. SAWYER. Well, it is catty-corner across the street.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Mr. SAWYER. It is southeast across the street from the Texas School Book Depository, at least from the corner, and so we set up a group of officers and deputy sheriffs who were to take charge of the witnesses and take them over to see that affidavits were taken from them. They were more or less an escort service so the witness wouldn't get away.
And then as our detectives began to show up, I sent them over to the Sheriff's Office to assist in taking these depositions or affidavits.
Mr. BELIN. How many witnesses were there around there during this period of time that you talked to?
Mr. SAWYER. Well, during the entire period of time that I was there, I would venture to say between 25 to 50 different people had come up with information of one kind or another.
Mr. BELIN. Now, on this radio log, Sawyer's Deposition Exhibit A, do you notice your number there for any calls at all that might have come in? What number did you use?
Mr. SAWYER. I used No. 9. That is my regular call No. 9.
Mr. BELIN. I notice here a No. 9, the first time that appears to come in here is at 12:40 p.m.; is that right?
Mr. SAWYER. That is the first one after 12:40, sir.
Mr. BELIN. The first one after 12:30?
Mr. SAWYER. The first one after 12:30, yes, that is true.
Mr. BELIN. Then at 12:40, there is a bunch of calls at 12:40, with the next call number at 12:43, so you assume sometime 12:40 and 12:43 you, as No. 9, called in, is that correct?
Mr. SAWYER. That's correct.
Mr. BELIN. Would you read what it says that you said there?
Mr. SAWYER. "We need more manpower down here at the Texas Book Depository; there should be a bunch on Main if somebody can pick them up and bring them down here."
Mr. BELIN. Was that said before or after you came down from the elevator?
Mr. SAWYER. That was after.
Mr. BELIN. Was that before or after you told the men there to guard the front door and not let anyone in or out?
Mr. SAWYER. That was after.
Mr. BELIN. Now the next time that No. 9 appears is at what time?
Mr. SAWYER. Immediately after 12:43 and before 12:45.
Mr. BELIN. What did you say then?
Mr. SAWYER. "The wanted person in this is a slender white male about 30, 5 feet 10, 165, carrying what looks to be a 30-30 or some type of Winchester."
Mr. BELIN. Then the statement is made from the home office, "It was a rifle?"
Mr. SAWYER. I answered, "Yes, a rifle."
Mr. BELIN. Then the reply to you, "Any clothing description?"
Mr. SAWYER. "Current witness can't remember that."
Mr. BELIN. Then the statement is made sometime before 12:45 p.m., and after the 12:43 p.m., call, "Attention all squads, description was broadcast and no further information at this time."
Does that mean the description you made was rebroadcast?
Mr. SAWYER. I rebroadcast that description. That is what that means.
Mr. BELIN. I then notice on this radio log---I don't see anything more under 9, at least until after the, well, it is down until we have gone as far as 1:30 p.m., I don't see anything else, do you, sir?
Mr. SAWYER. No. There is another broadcast in there somewhere, though. I put out another description on the colored boy that worked in that department.
Mr. BELIN. What do you mean the colored boy that worked in that depository?
Mr. SAWYER. He is one that had a previous record in the narcotics, and he was supposed to have been a witness to the man being on that floor. He was supposed to have been a witness to Oswald being there.
Mr. BELIN. Would Charles Givens have been that boy?
Mr. SAWYER. Yes, I think that is the name, and I put out a description on him.
Mr. BELIN. How do you know he was supposed to be a witness on that?
Mr. SAWYER. Somebody told me that. Somebody came to me with the information. And again, that particular party, whoever it was, I don't know. I remember that a deputy sheriff came up to me who had been over taking these affidavits, that I sent them over there, and he came over from the sheriff's office with a picture and a description of this colored boy and he said that he was supposed to have worked at the Texas Book Depository, and he was the one employee who was missing, or he was missing from the building.
He wasn't accounted for, and that he was suppose to have some information about the man that did the shooting.
Mr. BELIN. When you say about the man who did the shooting, did you know at that time who did the shooting?
Mr. SAWYER. No.
Mr. BELIN. Do you know about what time in the afternoon this was?
Mr. SAWYER. Somewhere along in here; let's see if we can't find it.
Mr. BELIN. This doesn't go past 1:53 p.m.
Mr. SAWYER. What about your other transcript?
Mr. BELIN. I have a transcript of another one here, at least I did have.
Mr. SAWYER. I think we caught the man in the crowd later and sent him down. We sent him directly down to Captain Fritz's office.
Mr. BELIN. Well, just a minute now. I see here on No. 1, you have two channels there.
Mr. SAWYER. This is Channel 1, yes.
Mr. BELIN. We will call this Sawyer's Deposition Exhibit B.
I see here that you go on at 12:45 p.m., with this statement by your No. 9. You want to read it?
Mr. SAWYER. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. "From this building it is unknown if he is still there or not. Unknown if he was there in the first place."
Mr. BELIN. Then it reads back here, "All the information we have received, indicates it did come from the fifth or fourth of that building." That is the central headquarters back to you, is that it?
Mr. SAWYER. That's right.
Mr. BELIN. That is at least after 12:45 p.m., and before 12:48 p.m.?
Mr. SAWYER. Right.
Mr. BELIN. Now looking down on this log until the next time your number appears, is 1:12 p.m. What does that say?
Mr. SAWYER. "We have found empty rifle hulls on the fifth floor and from all indications the man had been there for some time."
Mr. BELIN. Then is there anything else?
Mr. SAWYER. This was reported to me by somebody inside the building.
Mr. BELIN. That was at 1:12 p.m., that the hulls were found, or at least shortly prior to that? This doesn't say anything else. It apparently doesn't go in detail much past 1:58 p.m., on Sawyer Deposition. Exhibit B, and 1:53 p.m., on Sawyer's Deposition Exhibit A.
Mr. SAWYER. That's right.
Mr. BELIN. Do you still feel sometime after that you might have called out another description?
Mr. SAWYER. It was another, sometime after that, or it has been left out of I don't think it has been left out of this, but it must have been after
Mr. BELIN. All right, now, sir; you did broadcast that description out of this
Mr. SAWYER. Yes, that's correct. That shows on the radio log. Where did you get that description
Mr. SAWYER. We are talking now about the colored man?
Mr. BELIN. No, I am talking about the one that is on Sawyer's Deposition Exhibit A, that shows you at 12:43.
Mr. SAWYER. That description came to me mainly from one witness who claimed to have seen the rifle barrel in the fifth or sixth floor of the building, and claimed to have been able to see the man up there.
Mr. BELIN. Do you know this person's name?
Mr. SAWYER. I do not.
Mr. BELIN. Do you know anything about him, what he was wearing?
Mr. SAWYER. Except that he was--I don't remember what he was wearing. I remember that he was a white man and that he wasn't young and he wasn't old. He was there. That is the only two things that I can remember about him.
Mr. BELIN. What age would you categorize as young?
Mr. SAWYER. Around 35 would be my best recollection of it, but it could be a few years either way.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember if he was tall or short, or can't you remember anything about him?
Mr. SAWYER. I can't remember that much about him. I was real hazy about that.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember where he said he was standing when he saw the person with the rifle?
Mr. SAWYER. I didn't go into detail with him except that from the best of my recollection, he was standing where he could have seen him. But there were too many people coming up with questions to go into detail. I got the description and sent him on over to the Sheriff's Office.
Mr. BELIN. Inspector, do you remember anything else about this person who you say gave you the primary description?
Mr. SAWYER. No, I do not, except that I did send him with an escort to the Sheriff's Office to give fuller or more complete detail.
Mr. BELIN. Do you know if he was taken there to see a lineup at the police station?
Mr. SAWYER. No.
Mr. BELIN. Did you ever see him again?
Mr. SAWYER. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. BELIN. Now, you talked to other people there that said they had some information with regard to where the shots may have come from?
Mr. SAWYER. Yes, through a number of people.
Mr. BELIN. First I am going to ask you if you talked to any other people who said they saw a rifle or part of a rifle?
Mr. SAWYER. Yes. There were a few who claimed that they had seen this.
Mr. BELIN. Where did these people that claimed they saw a rifle or part of a rifle---
Mr. SAWYER. The ones that I talked to were pointing out one of the upper floors of the Texas School Book Depository, which at that time I thought was the fifth floor.
Mr. BELIN. Do you know what portion, what side of the building it was? Was it the northeast corner or west side of the building?
Mr. SAWYER. It was on the south side of the building, and in the southeast corner.
Mr. BELIN. What about this person, who I will call the primary description witness, did he say what side of the building it was on?
Mr. SAWYER. He went and pointed out the window which I now note to be the sixth floor, but when I talked to him, I thought it was the fifth floor.
Mr. BELIN. The fifth floor?
Mr. SAWYER. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. What side of the building?
Mr. SAWYER. On the south side of the building, and the southeast corner.
Mr. BELIN. Did you talk to any witness, or did any witness talk to you who claimed to see any rifle or portion of a rifle at any place other than a window of Texas School Book Depository Building?
Mr. SAWYER. No, did any---
Mr. BELIN. Did any officer give you any information about talking to anyone who saw a rifle or a portion of a rifle at any place other than a window in the Texas School Book Depository Building?
Mr. SAWYER. No, not to my knowledge.
Mr. BELIN. Did you talk to people who attempted to locate the shots on the basis of what I would call their sense of hearing, rather than their sense of sight?
In other words, what they heard rather than what they saw?
Mr. SAWYER. Correct. That is correct. Some of them claimed that they had heard shots, or thought they heard shots from over the overpass.
Mr. BELIN. Did all the people you talked to say that they heard shots over the overpass? Claim they had some knowledge about where the shots came from?
Did they all say they heard shots from the overpass, or did they say they heard some from other places?
Mr. SAWYER. No. Very few said they heard the shots come from the overpass, or thought they heard them from that area.
Mr. BELIN. Well, where did other people say they heard shots come from?
Mr. SAWYER. Most of the people that heard the shots pointed out the Texas Book Depository.
Mr. BELIN. Did some of the people that heard shots, or thought they heard shots from the Texas School Book Depository, all say they saw a rifle there?
Mr. SAWYER. No.
Mr. BELIN. Most of them say they saw a rifle there?
Mr. SAWYER. No, just a few, very few.
Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else you can think of that occurred at the Texas School Book Depository that afternoon while you were there that might have any relevancy about where the shots came from, other than what you have told thus far?
Mr. SAWYER. Well, I had heard some of the officers come to me and said there was supposed to be, somebody told them about a woman that had taken some pictures of that window, and then one of the sergeants came to me, and I am not sure who the sergeant is now, but anyway he said that there was on the building immediately west east, I am sorry cast of the Texas School Book Depository, that a man up in one of the upper windows up there was taking some moving pictures of what had gone on.
Mr. BELIN. Did you ever contact this man? Do you know what his name is?
Mr. SAWYER. No; I don't know his name. The sergeant told me that the man would not give them the pictures, that he was waiting for the Secret Service or the FBI, I forget which now, and I sent the sergeant and two men back over there with instructions to bring that man and his pictures to me.
When they got back over there, Forrest Sorrels of the Secret Service was already there, and at least they so reported back to me, and was talking to this man.
So I told them to go ahead with their normal assignments and since Forrest was already there and talking to him, I knew that that part would be taken care of.
Mr. BELIN. You don't know what his name was or what the results of it was?
Mr. SAWYER. I don't know.
Mr. BELIN. Anything else?
Mr. SAWYER. Later that afternoon one of our colored officer detectives saw this colored man in this crowd across the street and we had previously broadcast a description on, and he took him into custody and sent him immediately down to Captain Fritz' office.
Mr. BELIN. He gave a statement, is that it?
Mr. SAWYER. This I don't know. I presume he did, but I didn't stop to talk to him or take any information. I just sent him on down there.
Mr. BELIN. Anything else you can think of at this time?
Mr. SAWYER. No.
Mr. BELIN. You spent most of the afternoon out in front of the building there?
Mr. SAWYER. I spent most of the afternoon up until 4 o'clock.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?
Mr. SAWYER. I went back down to the City Hall and checked around there to see if anything further I could do, and then I went home.
Mr. BELIN. What did you do on Saturday, the 23d? Anything that has to do with the assassination or the investigation of the Tippit murder?
Mr. SAWYER. No. I happened to be off on Saturday, and I didn't go back down. The boss didn't call me, so I stayed home.
Mr. BELIN. What about Sunday?
Mr. SAWYER. Same thing. In fact, I didn't even hear about the other thing until way late in the afternoon.
Mr. BELIN. Is there any other information that you can think of, whether I have asked it or not, that might be in any way relevant here?
Mr. SAWYER. The only other thing I can remember that I did down there, was when the shooting on Officer Tippit came in, I released half a dozen men to go to Oak Cliff to help with that.
Mr. BELIN. Inspector, is there anything else that you can think of, whether I have asked it or not, that is in any way relevant here?
Mr. SAWYER. I can't think of anything.
Mr. BELIN. Sir, we certainly appreciate your cooperation in coming down here.
You have a right, if you would like, after this report is typewritten, to read it and sign it before it is sent to us, or you can waive the reading of it and have it sent to us directly.
It doesn't make a bit of difference to us.
Mr. SAWYER. Whichever you prefer It doesn't make any difference to me.
I would like to read it.
Mr. BELIN. Why don't we say you read it and sign it, and it will be sent to us.
Mr. SAWYER. Okay