The CHAIRMAN - The Commission will come to order.
Chief, we have asked you to come here this morning, you and some of your officers, for the purpose of taking their testimony concerning the matters surrounding the arrest and the death of Lee Oswald at the time of the assassination of the President.
I think we will take the testimony of you, Captain Fritz, Lieutenant Day, and Lieutenant Baker. I want to say to you, Chief, before I leave, I will have to leave after an hour or so in order to sit on some cases we are hearing in the Supreme Court but I want to say to you beforehand that our staff was very much pleased with the cooperation that it received from your people when they were down in Dallas, and from the help that you personally gave to them, and made it very helpful, they were very helpful, and we did need to have speed at that particular time, because, as you know, we were obliged to wait until the Ruby trial was over before we could come down there at all.
So, we appreciate the assistance that your people gave us throughout that proceeding.
Now, would you please rise, Chief, and raise your right hand to be sworn.
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. CURRY - I do.
The CHAIRMAN - Mr. Rankin, our Chief Counsel, will interrogate you, Chief. Mr. Rankin, will you proceed?
Mr. RANKIN - Yes; Mr. Chief Justice.
Chief Curry, you gave deposition for the Commission recently, did you not?
Mr. CURRY - Yes; I did, sir.
Mr. RANKIN - That was about April 15, 1964?
Mr. CURRY - Yes, sir.
Mr. RANKIN - And that was down in Dallas that you gave it?
Mr. CURRY - Yes, sir; it was.
Mr. RANKIN - And Mr. Hubert examined you?
Mr. CURRY - That is true.
Mr. RANKIN - That was taken down by a court reporter?
Mr. CURRY - Yes, sir,
Mr. RANKIN - Do you have anything to add to what you said at that time or wish to correct it in any way?
Mr. CURRY - I can't recall of anything that I should correct or add to.
Mr. RANKIN - I ask you those questions in a general way, we will go back to certain parts of that but I would like to proceed at this time in view of the fact that the Chief Justice and possibly other members of the Commission who will come may not be able to be here all the time that you are being examined and I would like to get to certain crucial matters if I may.
When did you learn of the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr. CURRY - While I was out at Parkland Hospital.
Mr. RANKIN - Do you know about what time that was, the day?
Mr. CURRY - It was on the 22d and the best I recall it was around 1 o'clock or maybe a little after 1 o'clock.
Mr. RANKIN - How did that come to your attention?
Mr. CURRY - Some of my officers came to me and said they had arrested a suspect. in the shooting of our Officer Tippit.
Mr. RANKIN - What else did they say?
Mr. CURRY - They also told me a little later, I believe, that he was a suspect also in the assassination of the President.
Mr. RANKIN - What did you do then?
Mr. CURRY - I didn't do anything at the time. I was at the hospital, and I remained at the hospital until some of the Secret Service asked me to prepare two cars that we were informed that President Kennedy had expired and we were requested to furnish two cars for President Johnson and some of his staff to return to Love Field.
Mr. RANKIN - Did you do that?
Mr. CURRY - Yes; I did.
Mr. RANKIN - What else what did you do after that?
Mr. CURRY - After the planes departed from Love Field, I was there for the inauguration of the President, and then we left the plane, and Judge Sarah Hughes and myself, and I remained at Love for some, I guess perhaps an hour.
Mr. RANKIN - By inauguration, you mean the swearing in of the President?
Mr. CURRY - That is right, sir.
Mr. RANKIN - On the plane?
Mr. CURRY - On the plane; yes.
Mr. RANKIN - And then you left Love Field?
Mr. CURRY - I talked to Mayor Cabell and his wife for a little while and after the plane left Love Field then I left Love Field.
Mr. RANKIN - Did you go with Judge Hughes or she go with you?
Mr. CURRY - No; she was in her own car.
Mr. RANKIN - I see.
Mr. CURRY - And I returned to the city hall.
Mr. DULLES - Did I understand correctly, how long were you at Love Field after the plane of the President left?
Mr. CURRY - As I recall it was approximately an hour.
Mr. DULLES - That is what I thought.
Mr. CURRY - We waited there until the casket bearing the President, and then the cars bearing Mrs. Kennedy arrived, and it was, I would judge an hour perhaps.
Mr. RANKIN - Then what did you do?
Mr. CURRY - I returned to my office at city hall.
Mr. RANKIN - Did you do anything about Lee Harvey Oswald at that time?
Mr. CURRY - No. As I went into the city hall it was overrun with the news media.
Mr. RANKIN - What did you do about that?
Mr. CURRY - I didn't do anything. They were jammed into the north hall of the third floor, which are the offices of the criminal investigation division. The television trucks, there were several of them around the city hall. I went into my administrative offices, I saw cables coming through the administrative assistant office and through the deputy chief of traffic through his office, and running through the hall they had a live TV set up on the third floor, and it was a bedlam of confusion.
Mr. RANKIN - Did anyone of the police department give them permission to do this?
Mr. CURRY - I noticed--well, I don't know who gave them permission because I wasn't there. When I returned they were up there.
Mr. RANKIN - Did you inquire about whether permission had been given?
Mr. CURRY - No; I didn't. We had in the past had always permitted free movement of the press around the city hall but we had never been faced with anything like this before where we had national and international news media descending upon us in this manner.
Mr. RANKIN - Could you describe to the Commission the difference this time as compared with the ordinary case that you have handled?
Mr. CURRY - Well, the ordinary case, perhaps we have two or three or maybe a half dozen reporters, we have a room for them on the third floor where they normally on assignment at city hall they stay in this room.
As prisoners are brought to and from the interrogation offices, it is necessary to bring them down the man corridor, and they usually are waiting there where they take pictures of them as they enter and as they leave and they sometimes try to ask them questions.
Mr. RANKIN - Now, how was this different?
Mr. CURRY - That there was such total confusion here. We had to post men on the door to keep them actually from going into the office where they were interrogating. We had some men, police reserves and a sergeant, I noticed on the third floor when I come off the elevator.
They were stationed there, and they were screening people to see whether or not they had business on the third floor because we did have to carry on our other normal business, the burglary and theft and the juvenile bureau and the auto theft bureau, the forgery bureau all of these are on the third floor in this wing.
The CHAIRMAN - Chief, is this building just a police building or a municipal building, general purposes?
Mr. CURRY - It is a section of the municipal building.
The CHAIRMAN - A section of it. Is it isolated from the rest of it?
Mr. CURRY - No; it is connected.
The CHAIRMAN - Connected?
Mr. CURRY - Yes. And on the first floor we have the courts and the traffic violations bureau.
In the basement it is principally police offices. On the second floor we have the city planning commission, and we have part of our traffic division and special service bureau on the second floor.
Then on the third floor we have the criminal investigation division. We have the police dispatcher's office, and we have the administrative offices and we have the personnel offices.
The CHAIRMAN - I see.
Mr. CURRY - But all these are connected with the municipal building, each floor is.
The CHAIRMAN - Yes.
Mr. RANKIN - Did you have anything to do with the interrogation of Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr. CURRY - No, sir; I did not. I was in the office once or twice while he was being interrogated but I never asked him any question myself.
Mr. RANKIN - Do you know who did?
Mr. CURRY - Captain Fritz principally interrogated him, I believe.
Mr. RANKIN - Was that his responsibility?
Mr. CURRY - Yes; it was. There were several people in the office. It seems to me we were violating every principle of interrogation, the method by which we had to interrogate.
Mr. RANKIN - Will you explain to the Commission what you mean by that?
Mr. CURRY - Ordinarily an interrogator in interrogating a suspect will have him in a quiet room alone or perhaps with one person there.
Mr. RANKIN - Is that your regular practice?
Mr. CURRY - That is the regular practice.
Mr. RANKIN - Tell us how this was done?
Mr. CURRY - This we had representatives from the Secret Service, we had representatives from the FBI, we had representatives from the Ranger Force, and they were--and then one or two detectives from the homicide bureau. This was, well, it was just against all principles of good interrogation practice.
Mr. RANKIN - By representatives can you tell us how many were from each of these agencies that you describe?
Mr. CURRY - I can't be sure. I recall I believe two from the FBI, one or two, Inspector Kelley was there from Secret Service, and I believe another one of his men was there. There was one, I recall seeing one man from the Rangers. I don't recall who he was. I just remember now that there was one. Captain Fritz, and one or two of his detectives--this was in a small office.
Mr. RANKIN - Did you do anything about this when you found out there were so many, did you give any instructions about it?
Mr. CURRY - No; I didn't. This was an unusual case. In fact, I had received a call from the FBI requesting that they have a representative from there in the hearing room. And we were trying to cooperate with all agencies concerned in this, and I called Captain Fritz and asked him to permit a representative of the FBI to come in.
Mr. DULLES - Who was directing the interrogation, Captain Fritz?
Mr. CURRY - Captain Fritz.
Mr. RANKIN - Do you know how Lee Harvey Oswald was treated by the police department?
Mr. CURRY - So far as I know he was treated as any other prisoner is treated. He was not handled in any manner any different from any other prisoner. He had a scratch or two on his face which he received when he was wrestling with the police over in this theater in Oak Cliff. Other than that he had no marks on him.
Mr. RANKIN - Did he ever complain that you know of about his treatment while he was there?
Mr. CURRY - No, sir; he did not.
Mr. RANKIN - Did you give any instructions about the security or how he should be protected during this time?
Mr. CURRY - No; I personally didn't. Deputy Chief Lumpkin, who has charge of the service division which is the jail security, he told me that he had ordered that two guards be placed on him right outside his cell and kept there 24 hours a day as long as we had him.
Mr. RANKIN - Do you know what was done about that?
Mr. CURRY - It was carried out. He told me that this was carried out.
Mr. RANKIN - Did you have any further difficulty with the media, the various press and radio and television representatives during this time?
Mr. CURRY - Well, every time we would walk out of the office they would besiege you with questions and wanting statements and asking what we had found out, and did we think this was the right man, and they almost ran over you.
Mr. RANKIN - What did you do about that?
Mr. CURRY - I tried to maintain some order. I didn't order them out of the building, which if I had it to do over I would. In the past like I say, we had always maintained very good relations with our press, and they had always respected us, and this was something, the first time we experienced anything like this, to this degree.
Mr. RANKIN - Did you have any tape recordings of the interviews with Mr. Oswald?
Mr. CURRY - I do not have.
Mr. RANKIN - Did anyone?
Mr. CURRY - Not to my knowledge. Unless someone from the FBI or the Secret Service, if they recorded it, I don't know.
Mr. RANKIN - How many times was he interrogated, do you know?
Mr. CURRY - No; I do not know that.
Mr. RANKIN - You never examined him yourself at any time?
Mr. CURRY - No, sir; I didn't.
Mr. RANKIN - Will you describe the place where he was kept while he was there in the jail?
Mr. CURRY - Well, it is in one of our maximum security cells, much the same as any other jail. But he was isolated away from the other prisoners, and there was two jail guards set immediately outside his cell.
Mr. RANKIN - Did you isolate him or was that in accordance with your instructions?
Mr. CURRY - No; this is customary with a prisoner of this type and Chief Lumpkin in charge of the service division had issued these orders.
Mr. RANKIN - What do you mean by maximum security in your prison?
Mr. CURRY - Well, we have some cells where they have cells that are locked and then you come out of the cell into a corridor and that is locked, and these are maintained from a master control box. That is a maximum security cell. Some of the others they just have a lock on the door and it opens out into the hallway.
Mr. RANKIN - Did you do anything about furnishing him clothing?
Mr. CURRY - We remove. d his clothing except for his underwear in order that he couldn't harm himself. When he was removed from the cell, of course, his clothes were given to him.
Mr. RANKIN - Was he allowed to shower and clean up.
Mr. CURRY - I don't think he ever asked for a shower while he was there. Had he asked for one he would have been permitted to shower and he would have been permitted to shave.
Mr. RANKIN - Was he treated any differently in any way that you know of than other prisoners?
Mr. CURRY - Except perhaps a little more security placed on him, a constant security. Ordinarily we wouldn't, except in unusual cases would we have a constant surveillance on a prisoner, and this is usually, if we felt like he might try to harm himself we would have someone there to immediately prevent it.
Mr. DULLES - Could I ask a question?
What was Oswald's attitude toward the police? Have you any comment on that?
Mr. CURRY - The only things I heard him say, he was very arrogant. He was very--he had a dislike for authority, it seemed, of anyone. He denied anything you asked him. I heard them ask once or twice if this was his picture or something, he said, "I don't know what you are talking about. No; it is not my picture," and this was a picture of him holding a rifle or something. I remember one time they showed him and he denied that being him.
I remember he denied anything knowing anything about a man named Hidell that he had this identification in his pocket or in his notebook, and I believe a postal inspector was in this room at the time, too, and someone asked him about the fact that he had a post office box in the name of Hidell and he didn't know anything about that. He just didn't know anything about anything.
Mr. RANKIN - Did it ever come to your attention that he ever asked for or inquired about counsel?
Mr. CURRY - Yes; I heard him say something. I asked if he had had an opportunity to use the phone and Captain Fritz told me they were giving him an opportunity to use the phone.
Mr. RANKIN - What did he say about counsel?
Mr. CURRY - As I recall he said he wanted to try to get in touch with John Abt.
Mr. RANKIN - A-b-t?
Mr. CURRY - A-b-t, I believe an attorney in New York, to handle his case and then if he couldn't get him he said he wanted to get someone from Civil Liberties Union.
Mr. RANKIN - What did you do about that?
Mr. CURRY - I told them to let him talk to them in an attempt to get his attorney and in an attempt to got some of his relatives so they could arrange for it.
Mr. RANKIN - Will you describe how it was handled for him to be able to talk on the telephone?
Mr. CURRY - We take them from their cells and we have two telephones that they are taken to, and they are put on these telephones and they are locked in, and a guard stands by while they make their calls.
Mr. RANKIN - Is that call secret or is there any listening in on it?
Mr. CURRY - No, sir; it is not supposed to be secret. I mean it is supposed to be secret. It is privileged communication as far as we are concerned, we don't have a tap on the phone or anything.
Mr. DULLES - Did he use this?
Mr. CURRY - Yes;he did.
Mr. RANKIN - Do you know whether an attorney from Dallas was offered to him and came to the jail?
Mr. CURRY - There were some members of the Civil Liberties Union came to see us that night, and they said they were concerned with whether or not he was being permitted legal counsel.
Mr. RANKIN - Did they talk to you?
Mr. CURRY - No; they didn't talk to me. They talked to Professor Webster.
Mr. RANKIN - How did this come to you, attention?
Mr. CURRY - He told me.
Mr. RANKIN - I see. Now, tell us what he said.
Mr. CURRY - He said that they had come down to see whether or not he was being permitted legal counsel, and Professor Webster is in the law school out at Southern Methodist University and he told them he thought he was being given an opportunity to get in touch with legal counsel, and they seemed satisfied then about it. We also got Mr. Nichols.
Mr. RANKIN - Who is he?
Mr. CURRY - He was president of the Dallas Bar Association or criminal bar. I don't know which, Louis Nichols, and----
Mr. RANKIN - What did he do?
Mr. CURRY - He came down, he said he had heard that he was not being allowed the right to counsel, and they wanted to see and so I took him myself up to Lee Harvey Oswald's cell and let him go in the cell and talk to Lee Harvey Oswald.
The CHAIRMAN - Who was Mr. Nichols, did you say?
Mr. CURRY - Louis Nichols. He was president either of the Dallas----
DEAN STOREY. Pardon me, it is Dallas Bar Association.
Mr. CURRY - Dallas Bar Association.
The CHAIRMAN - Yes.
Mr. CURRY - He went in to talk to him and to see whether or not he was getting an opportunity to receive counsel and he seemed pleased, I mean he had no complaints. He told him if he didn't get John Abt then he wanted someone from the Civil Liberties Union to come up and talk to him. Then Mr. Nichols then went out in front of the television cameras, I believe and made a statement to the effect that he had talked to him and he was satisfied that he was being given the opportunity for legal counsel.
The CHAIRMAN - On what day was this?
Mr. CURRY - That was on the same day we arrested him?
The CHAIRMAN - That was Friday?
Mr. CURRY - Yes.
Mr. RANKIN - Do you know whether Mr. Oswald ever did obtain counsel?
Mr. CURRY - I don't believe he did. But I do know he made some telephone contacts.
Mr. RANKIN - Did the police department so far as you know interfere in any way with his obtaining counsel?
Mr. CURRY - No, sir.
Mr. RANKIN - Do you know when Lee Harvey Oswald was arraigned?
Mr. CURRY - It was about 1:30 in the morning. That would be on the morning of the 23d, I believe.
Mr. RANKIN - How long did he how long had he been in your custody then?
Mr. CURRY - About 11 hours. That was on the Tippit; yes, sir.
Mr. RANKIN - When you say that he was arraigned the following day early in the morning, did you mean for the Tippit murder or for the assassination?
Mr. CURRY - No; that was for the assassination of the President.
Mr. RANKIN - All right, will you tell us when he was arraigned for the Tippit murder?
Mr. CURRY - I was not present but I believe it was about 7:30.
Mr. RANKIN - That same evening?
Mr. CURRY - Yes; that would be about 5 hours afterwards.
Mr. RANKIN - Do you recall whether he was arrested first for the assassination or for the Tippit murder?
Mr. CURRY - For the Tippit murder. There were some witnesses to this murder and they had observed him as he left the scene, and this was what he was arrested for.
The CHAIRMAN - May I interrupt Just to ask the chief a question?
Chief, on your arraignments does the magistrate advise the petitioner as to his right to counsel?
Mr. CURRY - Yes, sir; he does.
The CHAIRMAN - Does he ask him if he has counsel?
Mr. CURRY - I don't recall him doing that. I am not customarily present when a person is arraigned.
The CHAIRMAN - You were not present at the arraignment?
Mr. CURRY - I was present when he was arraigned for the assassination of the President. I was not present when he was arraigned for the murder of Tippit.
The CHAIRMAN - I suppose they make a stenographic record of that, do they not?
Mr. CURRY - Yes, sir; I am sure they do.
The CHAIRMAN - That is all I have.
Mr. RANKIN - Chief, our people made an inquiry whether there was a stenographic record. They don't believe there was any.
Mr. CURRY - I am not sure of that. I know at the time he was arraigned for the assassination of the President I was present there at the time. It was decided that we should, district attorney was there at the city hall. He was there during most of the evening.
Mr. RANKIN - Will you just describe for the Commission what happened during the arraignment for the assassination, who was present, what you saw.
Mr. CURRY - As I recall, I know the Justice of the Peace David John Stone was there. It seemed like Sergeant Warren, but I couldn't be positive but some of the jail personnel brought him out into the identification bureau.
Mr. RANKIN - How was he taken out? Were there several people around him, what was the security arrangements?
Mr. CURRY - At that time there was only, we were inside the offices of the criminal identification section. He was brought out through a door that opens from the jail into the criminal identification section. There was only about a half dozen of us altogether there, I don't recall who all was there.
Mr. RANKIN - What do you mean by the criminal identification section. Could you describe what that is?
Mr. CURRY - That is the identification bureau.
Mr. RANKIN - Does that have a room that this meeting occurred in?
Mr. CURRY - It is not a room such as this. It was in the little foyer or lobby, and it is separated from the jail lobby.
Mr. RANKIN - Did the justice of the peace sit or stand or what?
Mr. CURRY - He stood. He stood on one side of the counter and Oswald on the other side of the counter.
Mr. RANKIN - What floor is this on?
Mr. CURRY - The fourth floor.
Mr. RANKIN - That is nearest the place where there are some filing cabinets?
Mr. CURRY - Yes; it is.
Mr. RANKIN - And besides the people that you have described, I assume that you yourself were there as you have said?
Mr. CURRY - Yes; I was.
Mr. RANKIN - Was there anyone else that you recall?
Mr. CURRY - Not that I recall, other than the justice of the peace.
Mr. RANKIN - Will you describe what happened?
Mr. CURRY - Lee Harvey Oswald was brought in and the complaint was read to him, and here again he was very arrogant and he said, "I don't know what you are talking about. That is the deal, is it," and such remarks as this, and the Justice of the peace very patiently and courteously explained to him what the procedure was and why it was.
Mr. RANKIN - What did he say about that?
Mr. CURRY - I don't recall his exact words.
Mr. RANKIN - Just tell us in substance.
Mr. CURRY - He didn't--as I recall, he didn't think much of it. He just said, "I don't know what you are talking about."
Mr. RANKIN - What did the Justice of the peace say about the procedure and any rights and so forth?
Mr. CURRY - As I recall it, he read to him the fact that he was being charged with the assassination of the President of the United States, John Kennedy on such and such day at such and such time.
Mr. RANKIN - Did he say anything about his right to plead?
Mr. CURRY - I don't recall, sir.
Mr. RANKIN - Did he say anything about counsel?
Mr. CURRY - I don't recall whether he did or not.
Mr. RANKIN - What else happened at that time that you recall?
Mr. CURRY - That is about all. After it was read to him, he was taken back to his cell.
Mr. RANKIN - Did you go back with him to the cell?
Mr. CURRY - No, sir; I didn't.
Mr. RANKIN - Who took him back to the cell?
Mr. CURRY - The jailer and assistant jailer or jail guard.
Mr. RANKIN - What came to your attention after that about Lee Harvey Oswald, that you can recall, what was the next thing that happened that you know of?
Mr. CURRY - The next thing that I know of, was the next morning.
Mr. RANKIN - What happened then?
Mr. CURRY - The interrogation of Lee Harvey continued on and off through the day. No; I had asked the captain during the afternoon if he was being given rest periods and if he was being fed properly so that he wouldn't have reason to complain that we were mistreating him in any way.
Mr. RANKIN - What captain did you ask that?
Mr. CURRY - Fritz.
Mr. RANKIN - What did he say?
Mr. CURRY - He said he was. He said he was not interrogating him on long drawn-out extended periods, he was letting him rest and he was being fed.
Mr. DULLES - Did the interrogation continue into the night or did it stop, do you know?
Mr. CURRY - I don't know what--well, it did continue into that first night, I know. But I don't know what time they discontinued the interrogation.
Mr. RANKIN - They stopped?
Mr. CURRY - I was not in the offices all the time. I was there two or three times.
Mr. RANKIN - Captain Fritz tell you anything about the interrogation, how it was going, what was said?
Mr. CURRY - He told me about, oh, late in the afternoon or early in the evening that he felt that he had enough evidence to file on him for the murder of the officer, and he told me, he said, "I strongly suspect that he was the assassin of the President."
Mr. RANKIN - Do you know what time of day it was?
Mr. CURRY - It seemed to me like it was 6 or 7 o'clock on the day of the 22d.
Mr. RANKIN - Can you describe the situation in the police headquarters with regard to the media. Were they continuing to be there?
Mr. CURRY - They remained there. You could hardly get down the hall, and it was necessary, when we would take the prisoner back to the jail to bring him out of the office, and down this hallway and put him on a special elevator just for prisoners.
Mr. RANKIN - What office do you mean when you say that?
Mr. CURRY - From the homicide office.
Mr. RANKIN - Yes. You took him down what hallway?
Mr. CURRY - The third floor hallway. The offices run like this in the building. The homicide office is right along here, perhaps 25 feet. The elevator is right here, this is a special elevator that runs to the jail.

Mr. RANKIN - Will you mark that homicide office with an "H" on to indicate it?
Mr. CURRY - This extends up here a little more perhaps.
Mr. RANKIN - Will you mark the elevator with "EL"
The CHAIRMAN - There is a lot of other writing on this paper a lot of doodling that someone else has done and I think the chief had better have a new piece of paper.
Gentlemen, before you get into a discussion of this diagram with the chief, Mr. Rankin, I must leave now for a session of the Court, and Mr. Dulles, will you preside in my absence?
Mr. DULLES - Yes, Mr. Chairman.
The CHAIRMAN - I will be back immediately at the conclusion of our session today.

(At this point, the Chief Justice left the hearing room.)
Mr. RANKIN - Chief, have you marked on a yellow sheet of paper a diagram of the third floor of the police headquarters?
Mr. CURRY - Yes; I have, principally the north end of it.
Mr. RANKIN - We will call that Exhibit 701. Will you describe briefly for the Commission just what you have marked on there now?
Mr. CURRY - I have a rough layout of the north end of the third floor of the police and courts building in Dallas, Tex.
Now, this shows the public elevators, the lobby way in front of the elevators, and then a hall that extends the length of the third floor from north to south.
In the extreme north end there is a small press room where ordinarily the news media stay from early morning until late at night to cover police events.
I have also marked off the other bureaus that are located on this floor, the burglary and theft bureau would be on the west side, and in the northwest corner is the Juvenile bureau.
The northeast corner is the auto theft bureau, the next going south would be the forgery bureau, and then would be the homicide office or homicide bureau, which is adjacent to a hallway, the north-south hallway, and also the rear office is adjacent to the hall going over to the municipal building which is immediately east of the police and courts building.
The entrance to the homicide office is approximately 20 or 25 feet to the entrance to this jail elevator, and it is necessary to bring a prisoner down this hall in order to get him into this jail elevator. Each time we that I observed them move Oswald, they were almost overrun by news media.
Mr. RANKIN - By overrun, what do you mean?
Could you describe with a little more definiteness, are you talking about 4 or 5 or 10?
Mr. CURRY - I will say probably a hundred, at least a hundred that were jammed into this hallway.
 

(At this point, Mr. McCloy entered the hearing room.)

Mr. RANKIN - Were some of them--I will withdraw that question.
Were some of these people from the news media from the press and others from the radio and others from the television?
Mr. CURRY - Yes, sir; that is true, sir.
 

(At this point, Representative Ford entered the hearing room.)

Mr. RANKIN - Chief Curry, you said that Mr. Nichols came that afternoon. I call to your attention that we have information that he came there on the Saturday afternoon.
Mr. CURRY - Perhaps it was, not the Friday. That perhaps was on Saturday.
Mr. RANKIN - Yes.
Mr. DULLES - I wonder if you could just summarize briefly where we are.
 

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. RANKIN - Back on the record.
In regard to Mr. Nichols, did you know whether or not he offered to represent or provide counsel?
Mr. CURRY - Yes; he did.
Mr. RANKIN - What did he say about that?
Mr. CURRY - He said he didn't care to at this time.
Mr. RANKIN - What did Mr. Nichols say about providing counsel?
Mr. CURRY - He said the Dallas Bar would provide counsel if he desired counsel.
Mr. RANKIN - That is to Mr. Oswald?
Mr. CURRY - Oswald.
Mr. RANKIN - What did Mr. Oswald say?
Mr. CURRY - He said, "I don't at this time," he said, "If I can't get Mr. Abt to represent me or someone from Civil Liberties Union I will call on you later."
Representative FORD. - Did Nichols and Oswald talk one to another?
Mr. CURRY - Yes; he was taken to see Oswald and he talked to him.
Mr. RANKIN - And this all occurred at the meeting you have already described?
Mr. CURRY - Yes, sir.
Mr. RANKIN - Between Mr. Nichols and Mr. Oswald?
Mr. CURRY - That is correct.
Mr. RANKIN - When you had so many people of the news media in all of your corridors and throughout your police headquarters, did you discuss that with the mayor or any of the other authorities?
Mr. CURRY - I don't recall that I specifically discussed this condition.
Mr. RANKIN - Did you ask for any instructions or advice?
Mr. CURRY - No, sir; I didn't.
Mr. RANKIN - Did you do anything about it that you have not already described?
Mr. CURRY - No, sir; I didn't.
Mr. DULLES - Did it worry you?
Mr. CURRY - Yes, sir; it did. I was concerned about it.
Mr. MCCLOY - Did you have a definite system of checking credentials of these people as they came in?
Mr. CURRY - On a particular incident that had occurred previous to this, such as the school integration, we had a plane to fall there one time and we have a regular set up for disaster, whereby the press identify themselves in order to get into a certain area, and their credentials were being checked.
Now, I have heard it said, not to my knowledge can I tell you this, that Jack Ruby at one time or sometime during these preceding days, had been seen there and apparently had some press credentials but I was never able to establish that.
Mr. RANKIN - You have checked into it?
Mr. CURRY - I have inquired into it or had it inquired into.
Mr. RANKIN - What did you find out in that regard?
Mr. CURRY - I couldn't find out where he had received press credentials from anybody.
Representative FORD - Were any press credentials found in his effects?
Mr. CURRY - No; not to my knowledge.
Mr. RANKIN - When you were having the difficulty with the media that you have described, did you do anything about adding additional guards or anything about additional security?
Mr. CURRY - No; we had two men, two uniformed officers right at the homicide door to keep anyone from going in there.
As I recall, there was a sergeant, and a couple of reserve officers at the public elevators here, and there were a couple of reservists at this end of the hall to keep them from overrunning into the administrative offices.
Mr. RANKIN - I offer in evidence Exhibit 701, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. DULLES - Is that the chart?
Mr. RANKIN - Yes.
Mr. DULLES - It will be admitted This is a chart of the third floor.
Mr. CURRY - Of the police and courts building.
Mr. DULLES - What is the other word?
Mr. CURRY - Police and courts building.
Mr. DULLES - It will be accepted.
 

(The chart referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 701 for identification and received in evidence.)

Mr. RANKIN - Have you done anything to change your procedures in regard to security or how you would handle prisoners in light of this difficulty you had with the media?
Mr. CURRY - The city manager and I have discussed the possibility that we are going to in the near future build a new police building.
Mr. RANKIN - Who is the city manager?
Mr. CURRY - Elgin Crull. He made this statement that when and if we build another building, it will be so designed. that the prisoners will not have to be brought through where the general public are permitted or where the press would be permitted. That there will be two sets of halls or hallways where they will be brought down in the rear hallways and admitted into the offices for interrogation.
Mr. RANKIN - What did you say about that?
Mr. CURRY - I heartily agreed with him.
Mr. RANKIN - Have you made any other plans for change of security?
Mr. CURRY - I have talked to my staff and said if we were ever faced with a thing of such magnitude again that we would not permit the press to come into the building. We would designate a place outside for them and we would just have to take the heat that was given to us by the press for not permitting them in there, but in view of what had happened that we would never permit this to occur again.
That we would, permit them to have representatives but they would be required to choose their representatives to be present, say, in these hallways or inside the buildings, and the rest of them would be excluded.
And regardless of how they treated us in the press for this decision, that is the way it would be in the future.
Mr. RANKIN - Did you do anything about appearing on television during this time?
Mr. CURRY - They had these cameras set up in the hallway, if I can have the exhibit I will show it to you.
Mr. RANKIN - Yes. That is Exhibit 701.
Mr. CURRY - Yes, sir. They had cameras set up right here, two or three cameras.
Mr. RANKIN - Have you marked that with the word "cameras"?
Mr. CURRY - Yes. And on an occasion or two as I was walking from the homicide office back to my office they would stop me here and try to interrogate me or interview me and they would have the cameras turned on me.
Mr. RANKIN - What would you do?
Mr. CURRY - They would besiege me with questions about how the investigation was proceeding, and I would on occasion or two I told them I thought it was proceeding very well, that we were obtaining good evidence to substantiate our suspicions, that this was the man that was guilty of the assassination.
Mr. RANKIN - Did you tell them what evidence you had?
Mr. CURRY - I told them on one occasion we had a rifle that had been partially identified by his, as belonging to him.
Mr. RANKIN - When did you do that?
Mr. CURRY - I believe that was on Saturday, I think.
Mr. RANKIN - About what time of the day?
Mr. CURRY - I don't recall exactly. I think it was in the afternoon. It might have been Friday night.
Mr. RANKIN - Did you tell them about any other evidence that you had?
Mr. CURRY - I don't recall, sir, whether I did or not. There was so much confusion that I can't recall exactly the times and exactly what was said. I think this is documented, perhaps.
Mr. RANKIN - Where?
Mr. CURRY - On the TV film.
Mr. RANKIN - I see. Did you give out any interviews to the newspapers?
Mr. CURRY - I don't recall giving any interviews to newspapers.
Mr. RANKIN - Any news releases?
Mr. CURRY - Not that I recall.
Mr. DULLES - Do you recall having told them that you had sent a radio order out to surround the book depository?
Mr. CURRY - I didn't do that, sir. That was one of my inspectors, I believe that gave that order. I was riding in the Presidential parade and approximately a hundred feet, I guess, ahead of the President's car, and when we heard this first report, I couldn't tell exactly where it was coming from.
Representative FORD - What report are you talking about now?
Mr. CURRY - A sharp report as a firecracker or as it was it was the report of this rifle.
We were just approaching an underpass, and there were some people around on each side of the underpass, up in the railroad yards, and I thought at first that perhaps this was a railroad torpedo, it was a sharp crack.
Inspector--no, it wasn't Inspector, it was Lawson of the Secret Service and Mr. Sorrels of the Dallas office of the Secret Service, and Sheriff Bill Decker and myself were in this car.
Mr. DULLES - I may be anticipating.
Mr. RANKIN - That is all right, go right ahead.
Mr. CURRY - I said what was that, was that a firecracker, or someone said this, I don't recall whether it was me or someone else, and from the report I couldn't tell whether it was coming from the railroad yard or whether it was coming from behind but I said over the radio, I said, "Get someone up in the railroad yard and check."
And then about this time, I believe it was motorcycle Officer Chaney rode up beside of me and looking back in the rear view mirror I could see some commotion in the President's car and after this there had been two more reports, but these other two reports I could tell were coming behind instead of from the railroad yards.
Mr. RANKIN - What do you mean by reports?
Mr. CURRY - Sharp reports as a rifle or a firecracker, and looking in the rear view mirror then I could see some commotion in President Kennedy's car.
Mr. RANKIN - You could distinctly hear and tell that the two later reports were from behind?
Mr. CURRY - Behind.
Mr. RANKIN - Rather than front?
Mr. CURRY - That is right.
Mr. RANKIN - You weren't sure whether the first one was from behind or in front?
Mr. CURRY - I couldn't tell because perhaps of the echo or the----
Representative FORD - Where were you sitting in the car, sir?
Mr. CURRY - I was driving.
Representative FORD - You were driving?
Mr. CURRY - Yes, sir.
Representative FORD - When you heard the first report, did you grab a communications set and give this order?
Mr. CURRY - Almost immediately.
Representative FORD - What was the order that you gave?
Mr. CURRY - As I recall it, "Get someone up in the railroad yard to check those people." There was already an officer up there.
Mr. RANKIN - How do you know that?
Mr. CURRY - They assigned officers to every overpass.
We went with the Secret Service, Batchelor and Chief Lunday had went over this route with Secret Service agents Lawson and Sorrels and they had run the route 2 or 3 days prior to this and pointed out every place where they wanted security officers, and we placed them there where they asked for them.
Mr. RANKIN - Did you see an officer there when you looked up?
Mr. CURRY - I couldn't recognize him, but I could see an officer whoever it was.
Representative FORD - Did you get this order over the PA system before the second and third shots?
Mr. CURRY - I don't believe so, I am not sure. I am not positive. Because they were in pretty rapid succession. But after I noticed some commotion in the President's car and a motorcycle officer ran up aside of me and I asked him what had happened and he said shots had been fired, and I said, "Has the President been hit or has the President's party been hit? And he said, "I am sure they have."
I said, "Take us to the hospital immediately," and I got on the radio and I told them to notify Parkland Hospital to stand by for an emergency, and this is approximately, I would say, perhaps a couple of miles or so to Parkland Hospital from this, and we went to Parkland and I notified them to have them to be standing by for an emergency, and we went out there under siren escort and went into the emergency entrance.
As I recall, I got out of the car and rushed to the emergency entrance and told them to bring the stretchers out, and they loaded the President, President Kennedy and Governor Connally onto stretchers and took them into the hospital.
Mrs. Kennedy, I went into the hospital, and I know she was outside the door of where they were working with the President, and someone suggested to her that she sit down and she was very calm, and she said, "I am all right. Some of your people need to sit down more than I do."
But everyone was very concerned. I remained around the hospital. I was contacted by some of the special sergeants who asked me to stand by in my car and get another car and take the President, then Vice President Johnson to Love Field.
Mr. RANKIN - You have told us about that, haven't you?
Mr. CURRY - Yes; I have told you about that.
Mr. RANKIN - And you told us you attended the swearing in of President Johnson?
Mr. CURRY - Yes; I did.
Mr. RANKIN - And that you waited until the plane left and then you came back?
Mr. CURRY - To my offices.
Mr. RANKIN - And Judge Hughes left at the same time?
Mr. CURRY - Yes.
Mr. RANKIN - Now, did you do anything about the assassination after this or at some time?
Mr. CURRY - No. I left this to be handled by Captain Fritz who is in charge of all homicide investigations.
Mr. RANKIN - Do you know whether anything was done, did you make inquiry?
Mr. CURRY - Yes; he told me they were interrogating him, Oswald about the assassination and trying to check on the movements of Oswald, and they obtained, I understand, some search warrants to go out and search, they found out where he had been staying.
Mr. RANKIN - What about the building immediately after the occasion?
Mr. CURRY - It was sealed off, Inspector Sawyer who is a uniformed police inspector, I think was the first ranking officer to the School Depository Building. He would have bad to come perhaps 10 blocks. I believe he told me that he was about at Akard and Maine when this came on the air that we had had some trouble down there.
Mr. RANKIN - You say you imagine. Is this something that they reported to you?
Mr. CURRY - Yes. He told me later that he did immediately go to the scene of the Texas--of where the shots were fired from.
Mr. RANKIN - What did he tell you he did then?
Mr. CURRY - He took charge of the investigation.
Mr. RANKIN - What did he do about the building?
Mr. CURRY - He had it sealed off. This perhaps would have been perhaps, 5, 8, 10 minutes after the original----
Mr. RANKIN - About what time?
Mr. CURRY - I would say perhaps 12:40.
Mr. RANKIN - And was that before or after a description of Lee Oswald was put on the radio?
Mr. CURRY - I couldn't say whether it was before or after.
Mr. RANKIN - What else happened?
Mr. CURRY - I think he perhaps was the one who gave that description, I am not sure.
A deputy chief of services who was in the pilot car ahead of us, was at Love Field, and he had some more Secret Service men with him, I believe.
Mr. RANKIN - Who is that?
Mr. CURRY - George Lumpkin. George L. Lumpkin. He asked me at the hospital if I didn't want him to go back to the Texas School Book Depository and assist in the search of the building and I told him yes, and he did go back, and took over on the search of the building then.
Mr. RANKIN - Did he report to you later what he did about that?
Mr. CURRY - Yes, he did. He told me that he had sealed it off and he appointed two search teams to search the building from top to bottom, starting at the bottom and going to the top and starting at the top and going to the bottom.
Mr. MCCLOY - Who was this man?
Mr. CURRY - George L. Lumpkin.
Mr. MCCLOY - Secret Service?
Mr. CURRY - No.
Mr. MCCLOY - On your staff?
Mr. CURRY - No; he is a police officer.
Mr. RANKIN - Was he an assistant chief?
Mr. CURRY - He is not an assistant chief. Each of the divisions have a deputy chief in charge of them. I have one assistant chief and four deputy chiefs.
Mr. RANKIN - And this was a deputy chief?
Mr. CURRY - A deputy chief; yes.
Mr. RANKIN - Under your system the highest civil service status is inspector, is it?
Mr. CURRY - That is correct.
Mr. RANKIN - And the other officers are appointed?
Mr. CURRY - Appointed, yes.
Mr. RANKIN - By you?
Mr. CURRY - By me, yes.
Mr. RANKIN - Now, these two teams that you referred to that the deputy chief appointed to search the building, do you know how many officers were in those teams?
Mr. CURRY - No, sir; I don't.
Mr. RANKIN - Do you know whether the search was made?
Mr. CURRY - They reported to me that it was made, yes.
Mr. RANKIN - Do you know what else happened in regard to the building or the search for the assassin?
Mr. CURRY - After it was searched I understand it was sealed off and they were asked not to let anybody come or go from the building until further orders.
Mr. RANKIN - Then what happened after that?
Mr. DULLES - Could I inquire there. I thought it was sealed off previous to the search according to your previous testimony.
Mr. CURRY - It was. But after they searched it and all of the investigators left there, they asked Mr. Truly, I believe, the building manager, not to let anybody come and go.
Mr. DULLES - Was that supplemented, though, by the police?
Mr. CURRY - Yes; I believe we had officers there.
Mr. DULLES - Then there were in a way two sealings off. One that you gave the order was given 8 or 10 minutes----
Mr. CURRY - Almost immediately, yes.
Mr. DULLES - After the assassination, and then the other one was after this search had been made.
Mr. CURRY - Yes, sir.
Mr. MCCLOY - There is one element I am not clear on, I may be anticipating, Mr. Rankin. But I believe we have had some testimony heretofore, that Mr.---an officer went in with Mr. Truly into the building.
Mr. CURRY - Yes, sir.
Mr. MCCLOY - And started to go upstairs, and they ran into Oswald on the second floor. Was that before the inspector got there?
Mr. CURRY - Yes, sir; I am sure it was, because this officer was there at the scene.
Mr. MCCLOY - Do you remember that officer's name?
Mr. CURRY - No, sir; I don't. It is in the record.
Mr. BELIN - It is officer M. L. Baker. He was in the motorcade.
Mr. MCCLOY - Did M. L. Baker purport to seal off the building?
Mr. CURRY - No, sir; he didn't. The first officers in there were rushing up to the upper floors.
Mr. MCCLOY - The first man who sealed the building was----
Mr. CURRY - I believe will be Inspector Sawyer.
Mr. MCCLOY - Inspector Sawyer?
Mr. CURRY - I believe he would be the first to issue orders. I could be mistaken on that but as I recall he was the first officer.
Mr. DULLES - You did not give those orders yourself?
Mr. CURRY - No, sir; not myself.
Representative FORD - How many men participated in the search of the building?
Mr. CURRY - I would just have to guess but I would suggest probably 20 people.
Representative FORD - Did you check with those who went through this process?
Mr. CURRY - No; I didn't check with each individual officer.
Representative FORD - Did you get a report?
Mr. CURRY - I got a report from Inspector Sawyer, and also from Chief Lump-kin as to the manner in which it was searched.
Representative FORD - How long did it take them, do you have any idea?
Mr. CURRY - I believe they were, perhaps, maybe a couple of hours altogether, searching that building.
Representative FORD - Did they give you an oral or written report on what they found or didn't find?
Mr. CURRY - I believe there were some written reports made. I don't recall now.
Representative FORD - If there are written reports could we have them?
Mr. CURRY - I think----
Mr. RANKIN - Off the record.
 

(Discussion off the record.)

Representative FORD - Back on the record.
Are you familiar with any written report, Chief, on what transpired during the search of the building?
Mr. CURRY - Only what Deputy Chief Lumpkin in his report here in a chronological report that we made, and you have this, as best we could, after this occurred, the deputy chiefs and myself all sat down together went over this from the time we received notice that the President would visit Dallas until the shooting of Oswald, and step by step we tried to go through this as to what we did, and this is what we call a chronological report.
Representative FORD - If there is a report in anybody's files in the Dallas police department on what transpired during this investigation of the building, there would be no reason why that report couldn't be made available?
Mr. CURRY - No, sir; if we have one it certainly would be made available.
Representative FORD - Will you check the files of the department and if there is a report available will you submit it to the Commission, please?
Mr. CURRY - Yes, sir; I was trying to.
Mr. RANKIN - Chief Curry, I think that your chronological report does not purport to go into the detail of how the search was made and so forth.
Mr. CURRY - No, sir; it just states in here how Chief Lumpkin, how he formed the search and it tells something about while he was there.
Mr. MCCLOY - The chronological report part of our record yet?
Mr. BELIN - We have a chronological report, yes.
Mr. MCCLOY - Is this the same one as the Chief is looking at?
Mr. RANKIN - We will check that.
Mr. DULLES - It is not yet an exhibit, is it?
Mr. RANKIN - No; we have, and we were discussing yesterday, a number of items in the form of affidavits and other evidence that we will have to introduce into the record of the Commission before we get through which has been examined by the staff and in some cases called to the Commission's attention but is not formally a matter of record and we will have to complete that before we can complete our report.
Mr. MCCLOY - Is that the same chronological report that the Chief has?
Mr. CURRY - If it isn't I can leave you these copies but they were submitted to Attorney General Cart, two copies. This is what is in this report. "Upon arrival,"--this is Chief Lumpkin----"Upon arrival at the Texas School Book Depository we found Inspector Sawyer was in front of the building and with the assistance of other officers was in the process of detaining anyone or everyone who had any knowledge whatsoever of the shooting. This was discussed with Sawyer. We decided that we would get all persons in that category away from the crowd by sending them to Sheriff Decker's office"---which is about a haft block from here---"at Main and Houston to be held for further interrogation. Homicide Detective Turner was sent to the sheriff's office to represent the homicide bureau of our department and interrogating these witnesses."
Mr. DULLES - That is where the sheriff's office was?
Mr. CURRY - Main and Houston, it runs.
"Detective Senkel was released back to Captain Fritz to assist in the investigation. He had come down. Sawyer had placed guards on the building to prevent anyone from going or coming. Sawyer organized a detail to check all persons and automobiles on the parking lot surrounding the Texas School Book Depository Building, taking their names, telephone numbers, addresses, places of employment, and later on in the afternoon those vehicles that were not taken out were checked by license number. Several of the U.S. Alcohol Tax units assisted in the search.
"At that time Lumpkin entered the building and instructed that it be completely sealed off and that no one be allowed to leave or enter."
This probably was some, I would say, some 30 or 40 minutes after the original shots were fired. He had gone on to Parkland Hospital to me and I told him there to return to assist in the handling of this matter.
Mr. MCCLOY - In your judgment is that the first sealing off of the building that took place?
Mr. CURRY - No; I think Inspector Sawyer, when he arrived he took some steps to seal off the building.
Mr. RANKIN - You have already testified about Inspector Sawyer and you said you thought he was about 10 or 12 blocks away.
Mr. CURRY - I believe so, I believe he was about at Main and Akard Streets which would be about 10 blocks away when he heard of this incident occurring and he immediately went down there.
Mr. DULLES - And the first order to seal off was given some 10 minutes, I think you testified, in that neighborhood?
Mr. CURRY - To the best of my knowledge.
Mr. DULLES - After the assassination?
Mr. CURRY - Yes.
Mr. RANKIN - You don't know just what he did about sealing the building, did you?
Mr. CURRY - No, sir; I don't. I imagine he placed men on the front and back doors and asked them not to let anyone come or go without finding out who they were.
Mr. DULLES - Who would know that fact as to when that order was given, that would be Sawyer?
Mr. RANKIN - Officer Sawyer would be the one who would really know that fact?
Mr. CURRY - I believe so.
Mr. RANKIN - And whatever he would say about it you think would be correct?
Mr. CURRY - I do. Because we already have a deposition from him that tells about the sealing of the building, and it was not done immediately when he came.
Representative FORD - Would it be appropriate at this time to put that deposition in the record at this point?
Mr. RANKIN - I wonder if it would be satisfactory to the Commission, in view of the inquiry by Commissioner Ford, if we would, the staff would, tender at this point the portion of the deposition that relates to how the building was sealed, and then have a reference to this point in the place where it is offered in evidence in regular course.
Representative FORD - That would be satisfactory to me as far as the particular point we are discussing at the moment.
Mr. RANKIN - We will do that then.
Now, Chief, would you tell us the next thing that you know of that happened about the search for the assassin, after the search of the depository building that you described?
Mr. CURRY - The next thing I can tell you about, I remained out, as I say, at Love Field until the planes departed. I went back to the office.
Mr. DULLES - At about what time would you place that?
Mr. CURRY - I believe it was about 4 o'clock I believe when I returned to the office.
Mr. DULLES - It was 4 o'clock when you returned to the office from Love Field?
Mr. CURRY - I believe so, I am not positive.
When I arrived they were in the process of, Captain Fritz and his men, were in the process of investigating this murder of Tippit and also the assassination of the President.
Mr. RANKIN - Did you make an inquiry in regard to the progress?
Mr. CURRY - I think I did. I asked him how he was coming along and he said they were making good progress.
Mr. RANKIN - Then what happened after that?
Mr. CURRY - They had had a couple of showups with Oswald so witnesses could attempt to identify him.
Mr. RANKIN - Do you know whether they had gone out to Beckley Street to the place where he had stayed?
Mr. CURRY - I understood they had and I understood they went back the next day.
Mr. RANKIN - What do you mean by a showup?
Mr. CURRY - Well, it is customary when you have suspects in a crime where you have witnesses, that they be taken into a room and allowed, the witnesses, to observe them in the presence of other people.
Mr. RANKIN - You have a room for this purpose?
Mr. CURRY - Yes, sir; we do.
Mr. RANKIN - Will you describe briefly what that room is like?
Mr. CURRY - It is a police assemblyroom where we hold our regular rollcalls. They have a stage whereby prisoners are brought up on this stage.
Mr. RANKIN - How large is the room?
Mr. CURRY - The room, I would say, is perhaps 50 feet long and 20 feet wide.
Mr. RANKIN - Who was allowed in the room at the time of this showup?
Mr. CURRY - Presumably only the news media and police officers. I have been told that Jack Ruby was seen in this showuproom also.
Mr. RANKIN - About what time of the day was that?
Mr. CURRY - As I recall, this was fairly late Friday night, I believe.
Mr. RANKIN - Do you know who was there to try to identify Lee Oswald?
Mr. CURRY - No, I don't. The news media, a number of them, had continued to say, "Let us see him. What are you doing to him? How does he look?"
I think one broadcaster that I had heard or someone had told me about, said that Lee Harvey Oswald is in custody of the police department, and that something about he looked all right when he went in there, they wouldn't guarantee how he would look after he had been in custody of the Dallas police for a couple of hours, which intimated to me that when I heard this that they thought we were mistreating the prisoner.
Mr. RANKIN - Did you do anything about that?
Mr. CURRY - I offered then at that time they wanted to see him and they wanted to know why they couldn't see him and I said we had no objection to anybody seeing him. And when he was being moved down the hall to go back up in the jail they would crowd on him and we just had to surround him by officers to get to take him to the jail elevator to take him back upstairs, to let him rest from the interrogation.
Mr. RANKIN - And this showup, how many people attended?
Mr. CURRY - I would think perhaps 75 people. I am just making an estimate. I told them if they would not try to overrun the prisoner and not try to interrogate him we would bring him to the showup room. There was--this, thinking also that these newspaper people had been all over Love field, and had been down at the assassination scene, and we didn't know but what some of them might recognize him as being present, they might have seen him around some of these places.
Now, Mr. Wade, the district attorney, was present, at this time and his assistant was present, and as I recall, I asked Mr. Wade, I said, "Do you think this will be all right?" And he said, "I don't see anything wrong with it."
Mr. RANKIN - Did you find out where Jack Ruby was during this showup?
Mr. CURRY - I didn't know Jack Ruby. Actually the first time I saw Jack Ruby to know Jack Ruby was in a bond hearing or I believe it was a bond hearing, and I recognized him sitting at counsel's table.
The impression has been given that a great many-of the Dallas Police Department knew Jack Ruby.
Mr. RANKIN - What is the fact in that regard?
Mr. CURRY - The fact of that as far as I know there are a very small percentage of the Dallas Police Department that knows Jack Ruby.
Mr. RANKIN - Did you make an inquiry to find out?
Mr. CURRY - Yes; I did, yes, sir. And so far as I know most of the men who knew Jack Ruby are men who were assigned to the vice squad of the police department or who had worked the radio patrol district where he had places and in the course----
Mr. RANKIN - How many men would that be?
Mr. CURRY - I am guessing, perhaps 25 men. This is merely a guess on my part.
Mr. RANKIN - How large is your police force?
Mr. CURRY - Approximately 1,200. I would say 1,175 people. I would say less, I believe less than 50 people knew him. From what I have found out since then that he is the type that if he saw a policeman, or he came to his place of business he would probably run up and make himself acquainted with him.
I also have learned since this time he tried to ingratiate himself with any of the news media or any of the reporters who had anything to do, he was always constantly trying to get publicity for his clubs or for himself.
Mr. RANKIN - Now, at this showup, is there some screen between the person in custody?
Mr. CURRY - There is a time there wasn't at this time.
Mr. RANKIN - Why not?
Mr. CURRY - No particular reason. They just, a lot of the news media say they didn't think they could see him up there or couldn't get pictures of him up there and we brought him in there in front of the screen and kept him there as I recall only about 4 or 5 minutes and shoving up close to him and taking shots of him and took him upstairs and I believe the district attorney and his assistant stayed down and perhaps talked to the news media for several minutes.
But we took Harvey Oswald back upstairs and I think I went back to my office.
Mr. DULLES - This was the evening of Friday, was it not?
Mr. CURRY - I believe so, sir.
Mr. DULLES - Did you say Ruby was present that evening?
Mr. CURRY - I have understood he was. But to my own knowledge, I wouldn't have known him because I didn't know him.
Mr. MCCLOY - You said you first saw Ruby when?
Mr. CURRY - In a trial. I believe it was for a bond hearing where they were attempting to get bond for him. And I saw him sitting at a counsel table and recognized him from pictures I had seen of him in the paper.
Mr. DULLES - This is some time before the assassination?
Mr. MCCLOY - This is the trial incident to the trial of Ruby, as I understand it?
Mr. DULLES - You had not seen him before?
Mr. CURRY - No, sir.
Mr. MCCLOY - It was a bond hearing incident to the trial?
Mr. CURRY - If I had seen him I wouldn't have known him.
Mr. MCCLOY - I don't want to again interrupt but I don't know whether we have passed by all of the questions you wanted to ask the chief in regard to the motorcade and the time of the assassination.
I thought maybe we might ask him whether or what was his estimate of the speed of the motorcade, for example.
Mr. RANKIN - We haven't covered that period because of the way we started, and I think we could go back, Chief, if you will, to, say, at the point the motorcade left Main Street and started down Houston, and then down Elm up to the time off the shots.
Will you describe that, where you and what the motorcade consisted of?
Mr. CURRY - Yes, sir; I was---there was a pilot car ahead of us with Deputy Chief Lumpkin that was perhaps two or three blocks ahead of us and had been preceding us all the way from Love Field to see that the route was open and reporting back by radio to us, and this was for the purpose, if we had any wrecks or congestion to where it looked like the motorcade could be stopped that we could change our routes and get around them and also to let us know how the crowd was.
He had been preceding us all this way. There has been some question as to why this motorcade would not proceed on down Main Street.
Mr. RANKIN - Will you explain that to the Commission?
Mr. CURRY - Yes, sir; I can. I will make another diagram here, if you wish me to.
Mr. RANKIN - Mr. McCloy asked about whether the chronological report that Chief Curry was examining during part of his testimony was available to the Commission. We have now searched the Commission files and we find that a copy of that exact report has been available to the Commission and we have it here. It is a Commission document----
Mr. REDLICH - It is in Commission Document 81.1.
Representative FORD - Will this report be made a part of the record?
Mr. RANKIN - We haven't decided that question but we will examine it and report to the Commission later if it is not made a part of the record, why we recommend that it not be. It may very well be amongst the documents that would be made part of the record in regular course when we examine all of the material for that purpose. Is that a satisfactory handling of it?
Representative FORD - I think it is. I haven't had an opportunity to examine it. But if it is a part of the record, I suspect it ought to be made a part at this point since it has been referred to by the testimony of the chief. But it is something that could be discussed later, and if it should be, it could be put into the record at this point.
Mr. RANKIN - I would like to ask leave of the Chairman then to examine it with greater care after the testimony of the chief is taken and be able to make it a part of the record at this point unless I report back to the Commission that for some reason it would not be desirable.
Mr. DULLES - That would be we would proceed in regard to this chronological report we would proceed in the same way as we have suggested we would with regard to the other depositions that were taken in Dallas.
Mr. RANKIN - Except my offer before, Mr. Chairman, was that the portion of the deposition that would relate to the matters described, that is the sealing of the building, would, in fact, be incorporated into this record at that point. And that the balance of it would be offered at some later date as a part of the record of the Commission.
Here I wanted to reserve the question as to whether it should be a part of the record because of my desire first to examine it in detail and see if there is any reason why it should not and then report back to the Commission.
Mr. DULLES - You will report back to the Commission. It will not be excluded unless you so report to the Commission.
Mr. RANKIN - That is right.
Mr. DULLES - And the reason therefor?
Mr. CURRY - This sketch.
Mr. RANKIN - Will you mark that sketch you have just made Exhibit 702 please, and 703?
 

(Commission Exhibits Nos. 702 and 703 were marked for identification.)

Mr. CURRY - In the diagram, 702, Exhibit 702, the motorcade was going west on Main Street, there is a triple underpass there. There are three streets and they converge into one wide street down through a triple underpass, what we call a triple underpass.
Mr. RANKIN - Where you are talking about the underpass is that underpass on Main Street?
Mr. CURRY - It is Just west of Houston Street and runs parallel with Houston Street. And Main Street--now Houston Street runs in a north-south direction, Main Street, Elm Street, and Commerce Street the three principal streets that empty into this triple underpass are east-west, Elm Street is a one-way street west, Commerce is one-way east, Main Street is a two- way street going east and west. We had----
Mr. RANKIN - You were going to explain why you couldn't continue right down Main.
Mr. CURRY - We would--we left the parade route up to the host committee. They chose the route, asking that we go down Main Street, and then we would go on to what is known as the triple, through the triple underpass onto Stemmons Expressway. It was necessary to get on this expressway to get to the Trade Mart, the building where the dinner or luncheon would be held.
But had we proceeded on down Main Street, we could not have gotten onto Stemmons Expressway unless we had had public works to come in and remove some curbing and build some barricades over it.
So, in talking with the Secret Service people they suggested we come to Main Street to Elm Street, turn one block north and turn back west and go through the triple underpass on the Elm Street side and at this place Elm Street is two-way.
So that was the reason that it was necessary to take this motorcade one block north, and then turn west again in order that we could get on the triple, through the triple underpass onto the Stemmons Expressway without coming down and removing some curbing or building over the curbing and disturbing the regular flow of traffic.
Mr. RANKIN - Was there any consideration given prior to establishing the parade route to removing this curbing and going
Mr. CURRY - No, sir; nothing was said about it at all. In fact, when they were choosing the routes for this parade, we left it entirely up to the host committee and to the Secret Service.
They asked us what we thought about certain routes. We told them what we thought would be the most direct routes, and they chose to come through the downtown area, I think for the purpose they wanted the President to see as much of the people as possible and wanted the people to have an opportunity to see him.

Mr. RANKIN - Going to the Trade Mart building would be assumed that you would go by the Texas Depository Building?
Mr. CURRY - If we went on Stemmons Expressway and that is the way they wanted to go. The only other way we could have gone. We could have continued down Main Street passed through the underpass about a block past there to Industrial Boulevard and then we would have gone Industrial Boulevard and made an entrance from the Trade Mart, from the north side of the Trade Mart there. But it was decided with the Secret Service people that we would go Main to Houston, Houston to Elm, Elm through to triple underpass onto the expressway and the expressway to the Trade Mart where they would come off and had parking facilities reserved and had a security setup.

Mr. RANKIN - Will you describe the cars of the----
Mr. MCCLOY - Just before that, how far before November 22 was that route decided on?
Mr. CURRY - Approximately 2 days or so, I believe. That is in this chronological record.
Mr. DULLES - When was this route published?
Mr. MCCLOY - That route was published.
Mr. CURRY - It was published perhaps 2 days before, a day or two before.
Mr. RANKIN - Is the Elm Street route a shorter route than to go by Industrial Boulevard?
Mr. CURRY - It's a more scenic route. The Stemmons Expressway was and it was easier to travel, traffic is easier to control on it, it is a 10-lane highway, and the Industrial Highway is heavily traveled by commercial vehicles and goes through a commercial section of the industrial area. And there was a more scenic route and traffic was more---a freer flow of traffic anyway.
Mr. RANKIN - Were you involved in the discussion about the choice of route?
Mr. CURRY - Not particularly. Chief Batchelor, my assistant chief, and Chief Lunday. I discussed this some with the Secret Service Agent Sorrels, and Lawson in a staff meeting at city hall.
Mr. RANKIN - What was that discussion?
Mr. CURRY - Well, we, when I say we, I mean my staff and I, we told them what we thought would be the most direct route.
Mr. RANKIN - What did you say that would have been?
Mr. CURRY - It. It would have been to come into Lemmon Avenue, to Central Expressway if they were coming through town and over that route.
Now, if they. were going directly to the Trade Mart it would have been to come in Lemmon to Inwood Road and down Inwood to Hines, and Hines to Industrial and Industrial into--but this would not have taken them through the downtown area.
Mr. RANKIN - Then if they were going to go through the downtown area what did you say about the route that should be taken for that?
Mr. CURRY - This was probably the most direct route that they chose except they could have come in what we term the Central Expressway to Main Street, and then west on Main Street right down the route that was taken.

They chose rather to come in on Lemmon Avenue to Turtle Creek, and here again this is a more scenic route and more people would have an opportunity to see the motorcade. And followed Turtle Creek into Cedar Springs, to Harwood and south on Harwood to Main Street, west on Main to Houston, north on Houston to Elm and west on Elm to Stemmons Expressway.
Mr. RANKIN - Have you described the can in the motorcade? Their positions?
Mr. CURRY - I have them listed here, I couldn't tell you other than the front part of the motorcade but they are in this report.
Mr. RANKIN - Yes. Tell us the front part that you recall.
Mr. CURRY - I had Deputy Chief Lumpkin, and he had two Secret Service men with him, I believe, out of Washington, and a Colonel Wiedemeyer who is the East Texas Section Commander of the Army Reserve in the area, he was with him. They were out about, they were supposed to stay about a quarter of a mile ahead of us and I was in the lead car.
Mr. RANKIN - Who was with you?
Mr. CURRY - Inspector, not inspector, but Sheriff Bill Decker, Sorrels of the Secret Service, and Mr. Lawson, I believe he was out of the Washington office of the Secret Service. And immediately behind us then was the President's car.
Mr. RANKIN - You were driving your car?
Mr. CURRY - I was driving my car.
Mr. RANKIN - You had radio communication in that?
Mr. CURRY - Yes; I had radio communication with my motorcycle officers. with my downtown office, and Secret Service had a portable radio that they had radio contact with their people.
Mr. RANKIN - Yes. Now, what was in the next car.
Mr. CURRY - The President's party was in that car. Then following him was the Secret Service vehicle and then I understand was the Vice President's car, and then behind him was a Secret Service car. And then they had cars lined up as listed in this report here, how they were lined up after that.
Mr. RANKIN - Now, after you turned the corner off of Main going onto Houston, will you describe what happened as you recall it?
Mr. CURRY - Nothing unusual occurred. We were, I would say traveling perhaps 10 miles an hour, would be the ordinary speed to make a turn, and probably was making that speed after we made a turn from north, going north on Houston to west on Elm Street, and----
Mr. RANKIN - Did you slow down for the turn onto Elm?
Mr. CURRY - Perhaps just a little. I would say we were probably going 8 to 10 miles an hour. And as we were moving downward the triple underpass which is about an ordinary block we were beginning to pick up a little speed.
Mr. RANKIN - How much of a descent is there between where the Depository Building is and the place in the underpass?
Mr. CURRY - It is a pretty good little drop. Within the space of a block it drops down enough to go under an underpass.
Mr. RANKIN - It would be more than the height of a car?
Mr. CURRY - Yes; two heights.
Mr. RANKIN - Two heights.
Mr. CURRY - I think it is a 13- or 14-foot clearance.
Mr. RANKIN - Trucks could get under that?
Mr. CURRY - Yes.
Mr. RANKIN - Then what happened?
Mr. CURRY - Then we heard this report.
Mr. RANKIN - Now, how far along from the corner of Elm and Houston were you at the time of that?
Mr. CURRY - I think we were perhaps a couple of hundred feet or so.
Mr. RANKIN - How fast were you going then?
Mr. CURRY - I think we were going between 10 or 12 miles an hour, maybe up to 15 miles an hour.
Mr. RANKIN - Then what happened?
Mr. CURRY - We heard this report, and then all of the tension that followed I have told you.
Mr. RANKIN - Yes.
Mr. DULLES - What was the distance between your car and the President's car approximately?
Mr. CURRY - Mr. Dulles, I believe to the best of my knowledge it would have been 100, 125 feet.
Mr. DULLES - Between your car and the President's car?
Mr. CURRY - Yes, we stayed pretty close to them. In the planning of this motorcade, we had had more motorcycles lined up to be with the President's car, but the Secret Service didn't want that many.
Mr. RANKIN - Did they tell you why?
Mr. CURRY - We actually had two on each side but we wanted four on each side and they asked us to drop out some of them and back down the motorcade, along the motorcade, which we did.
Mr. RANKIN - How many motorcycles did you have?
Mr. CURRY - I think we had four on each side of him.
Mr. RANKIN - How many did you want to have?
Mr. CURRY - We actually had two on each side side but we wanted four on each side and they asked us to drop out some of them and back down the motorcade, along the motorcade, which we did.
Mr. RANKIN - So that you in fact only had two on each side of his car?
Mr. CURRY - Two on each side and they asked them to remain at the rear fender so if the crowd moved in on him they could move in to protect him from the crowd.
Mr. RANKIN - Who asked him to stay at the rear fender?
Mr. CURRY - I believe Mr. Lawson.
Mr. RANKIN - The Secret Service man?
Mr. CURRY - Yes, sir. Also we had planned to have Captain Fritz and some of his homicide detectives immediately following the President's car which we have in the past, we have always done this.
Mr. RANKIN - Now, would that be between the President's car and the Secret Service?
Mr. CURRY - And the Secret Service. We have in past done this. We have been immediately behind the President's car.
Mr. RANKIN - Did you propose that to someone?
Mr. CURRY - Yes, sir.
Mr. RANKIN - Who did you propose it to?
Mr. CURRY - To Mr. Lawson and Mr. Sellers.
Mr. RANKIN - What did they say about that?
Mr. CURRY - They didn't want it.
Mr. RANKIN - Did they tell you why?
Mr. CURRY - They said the Secret Service would be there.
Mr. RANKIN - And then?
Mr. CURRY - They said we can put this vehicle in between Captain Fritz and his detectives immediately at the end of the motorcade. They said, "No, we want a white or marked car there bringing up the rear," so Fritz and his men were not in the motorcade.
Mr. DULLES - What do you mean in the past when there have been previous Presidents visiting Dallas or other dignitaries?
Mr. CURRY - Yes; that is right; other dignitaries. Yes; our thinking along this was that in the past there have been this. Captain Fritz, he is a very experienced homicide man so are his detectives. They know the city very well. They have been there very, Captain Fritz to my knowledge, over 40 years.
It is customary that they in trying to protect a person if they are in the immediate vicinity, and Captain Fritz told me later, he said, "I believe that had we been there we might possibly have got that man before he got out of that building or we would have maybe had the opportunity of firing at him while he was still firing" because they were equipped, would have been equipped with high-powered rifles and machineguns, submachine guns.
Representative FORD - Where were they instead of being at the motorcade.
Mr. CURRY - Actually they were not in the motorcade at all. They followed up the motorcade.
Representative FORD - Were they in a car following up the motorcade?
Mr. CURRY - Yes, sir; they were in a car.
Representative FORD - How far away would they have been?
Mr. CURRY - I think they would have been at the rear, I believe.
Representative FORD - Captain Fritz is going to be here later.
Mr. RANKIN - Yes.
Representative FORD - And fill in what he did at that time?
Mr. RANKIN - Yes.
Mr. CURRY - But we tried to do what the Secret Service asked us to do, and we didn't try to override them because we didn't feel it was our responsibility, that it was their responsibility to tell us what they wanted and we would try to provide it.
Mr. RANKIN - Did you refuse to do anything that they asked you to do?
Mr. CURRY - No, sir; not to my knowledge we don't--we didn't refuse them to do anything.
Mr. DULLES - You considered them to be the boss in this particular situation?
Mr. CURRY - Yes, sir; the Secret Service; yes, sir.
Mr. RANKIN - Do you know or can you tell us approximately where the President's car was at the time of the first shot that you heard?
Mr. CURRY - To the best of my knowledge, I would say it was approximately halfway between Houston Street and the underpass, which would be, I would say probably 125-150 feet west of Houston Street.
Mr. RANKIN - Can you give us the approximate location of where it was when you heard the second shot?
Mr. CURRY - Well, it would have been just a few feet further because these shots were in fairly rapid succession.
Mr. RANKIN - How many feet do you mean?
Mr. CURRY - I would say perhaps, and this is Just an estimate on my part, perhaps 25 or 30 feet further along.
Mr. RANKIN - Then at the time of the third shot?
Mr. CURRY - A few feet further, perhaps 15-20 feet further.
Mr. RANKIN - Do you have an opinion as to the time that expired between the first shot and the third shot?
Mr. CURRY - This is just an opinion on my part but I would think perhaps 5 or 6 seconds.
Mr. RANKIN - Did you hear any more than three shots?
Mr. CURRY - No, sir; I did not.
Mr. RANKIN - Are you sure of that?
Mr. CURRY - I am positive of that. I heard three shots. I will never forget it.
Mr. RANKIN - Do you have something, Mr. McCloy?
Mr. MCCLOY - I was going to ask you, chief, as you were approaching the underpass you were looking toward the underpass presumably?
Mr. CURRY - That is right.
Mr. MCCLOY - Was the underpass bare of people or were there people on it?
Mr. CURRY - No; I could see some people on each side but not immediately over, but there were some people up in the railroad yard. I also could see an officer up there. I don't know who the officer was.
Mr. MCCLOY - You could recognize an officer on the top of the underpass?
Mr. CURRY - Yes; their instructions had been to place officers on every overpass and in every underpass.
Mr. MCCLOY - How close were you then to the underpass when you first heard that shot?
Mr. CURRY - Oh, perhaps 150 feet or 100 feet or so.
Mr. MCCLOY - So you are convinced that the shot could not come from the overpass?
Mr. CURRY - I don't believe it did; no, sir.
Mr. MCCLOY - Then----
Mr. CURRY - Because there didn't seem to be any commotion going on over there. This seemed to be people that I could see, they didn't seem to run or anything. They just seemed to be there.
Mr. MCCLOY - You spoke of the railroad yard. Just where is that railroad yard in relation to the underpass? We will see that.
Mr. CURRY - It is over----
Mr. MCCLOY - It is on the other side.
Mr. CURRY - Yes, sir. You see these tracks.
Mr. RANKIN - Mark that as Exhibit 703 and you can refer to.
Mr. CURRY - Yes; here is the School Book Depository. The railroad goes over.
Mr. DULLES - This aerial view of the Elm Street there, isn't it of the underpass, will be admitted as 704.
 

(Commission Exhibit No. 704 was marked for identification, and received in evidence.)

Mr. MCCLOY - Do you call that the railroad yards?
Mr. CURRY - Yes; that is true.
Mr. MCCLOY - Above the underpass?
Mr. CURRY - Yes.
Mr. MCCLOY - Did you see a number of people in the railroad yard?
Mr. CURRY - I would estimate maybe a half dozen.
Mr. DULLES - They were spectators or were they workmen. They were spectators?
Mr. CURRY - Yes, sir; as well as I was able to tell. They might have been workmen, too, but I presume it was people who were in the area and as the motorcade approached they got into position where they perhaps could have seen it.
Mr. MCCLOY - Did you recognize any officer amongst them?
Mr. CURRY - I seemed to recall seeing a uniformed police officer up there.
Mr. MCCLOY - In the railroad yard, and there was no commotion amongst the railroad yard people?
Mr. CURRY - I don't believe so.
Representative FORD - Do you know who the officer was?
Mr. CURRY - No, sir; but I believe by looking at the assignments we could determine what officer was up there.
There is an assignment of personnel which has been submitted for the record.
 

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. RANKIN - On the record, we will supply for the purposes of this record the name of the officer and check it with Chief Curry, who was on the underpass or really the over part of the pass.
Mr. CURRY - Really over.
Mr. RANKIN - At the time of the motorcade.
Representative FORD - Who determined there should be one, not more officers at an overpass?
Mr. CURRY - Deputy Chief Lunday and Assistant Chief Batchelor went over this route with Sorrels, and I believe Lawson was with them. And they were the ones who determined how many men would be placed at each location.

Mr. RANKIN - The inquiry I think particularly is did the Secret Service decide it would be one or did you decide it would be one?
Mr. CURRY - No; it would be the Secret Service because we just let them tell us how many men they wan. ted. The only deviation we made from that was in the security of the Trade Mart. I believe they requested 143 men, as I recall to secure the Trade Mart, and I believe we supplied them with 193 or 194 men, somewhat in excess of what they asked for at this location.
I called the State police, and they furnished a number of men, about 30 men, and Sheriff Decker furnished about 15, and I think we furnished from our department everybody that they asked for really, so we had a surplus.
Representative FORD - But the details as to how many men should be placed where were determined by Lawson and Sorrels of the Secret Service?
Mr. CURRY - That is right, sir; yes, sir.
 

(At this point Senator Cooper entered the hearing room.)

Mr. MCCLOY - May I ask one question?
As you were leading this or just ahead of the President's car, as you came around past the School Depository Building, was there anything that attracted your attention to the building at all as you went by?
Mr. CURRY - Not at all.
Mr. MCCLOY - There was no movement or anything?
Mr. CURRY - Not at all.
Mr. MCCLOY - You weren't conscious of looking up at the windows?
Mr. CURRY - Not at all.
Mr. MCCLOY - You had Secret Service men in that car with you?
Mr. CURRY - Yes, sir.
Mr. MCCLOY - Were they inspecting the windows as they went by?
Mr. CURRY - It seemed that Sorrels, he was looking around a whole lot and so was Lawson. I know comments were being made along the route as to first one thing and then another.
Mr. DULLES - If you had had the other car with police officers in it to which you referred and which I gathered you recommended what would have been the function and duties of the officers in that particular car?
Mr. CURRY - It would have been, of course, to guard the President, but in the event that anything happened they would have immediately dropped out of their car with rifles and submachine guns. That was what we had planned.
Mr. RANKIN - Now, as a part of the plans for the motorcade, was there anything said about the inspection of buildings along the route?
Mr. CURRY - The comment was made that in a city like this how in the world could you inspect or put. somebody in every window of every building.
Mr. RANKIN - Who said that?
Mr. CURRY - This was in a discussion with the Secret Service. I don't recall exactly who said this.
Mr. RANKIN - Was it the Secret Service people or your people?
Mr. CURRY - I don't know whether it was us or Secret Service. But this was discussed. I think it was Secret Service who told us how they always dreaded having to go through a downtown area where there were these skyscraper buildings.
Mr. RANKIN - Do you know of any effort that was made to search any of the buildings?
Mr. CURRY - Not to my knowledge. We did put some extra men from the special service bureau in the downtown area to work in midblocks to watch the crowd and they were not specifically told to watch buildings but they were told to watch everything.
Mr. RANKIN - Where were they located?
Mr. CURRY - On the route down Main Street. We didn't have any between Elm Street and the railroad yard.
Mr. RANKIN - But you say in midblock?
Mr. CURRY - Yes, sir; especially midblock along the route through the downtown area.
Mr. RANKIN - Where would the downtown area be?
Mr. CURRY - It would be from Harwood Street down to Houston Street.
Mr. RANKIN - Chief Curry, do you know whether Officers Foster and White were on the underpass?
Mr. CURRY - I would have to look at the assignment sheet to determine that, sir.
Mr. MCCLOY - May I ask at this point, unless I may be interfering with your examination, but was it usual for the representatives of the news media to attend showups in the police headquarters apart from this incident?

Mr. CURRY - It was not unusual. This was not setting a precedent.
Mr. MCCLOY - It was not unusual.
Representative FORD - In such a showup where they are present, are they shielded from the person brought in for identification?
Mr. CURRY - Are they shielded from----
Representative FORD - From the person who is brought up for identification?
Mr. CURRY - Ordinarily the person who is brought up for identification would be behind the screen, behind this silk screen. This is for the purpose of protecting the person who is going to try to identify him more than trying to protect the person who is being shown up because witnesses ofttimes have a fear of facing someone that they are asked to identify.
For this reason this screen was provided where the prisoner could not see out, but the people can see in. It is much like a one-way glass.
Representative FORD - That was used in this case?
Mr. CURRY - No; this was not used. We just brought him in front of it.
Representative FORD - Any particular reason why he was put in front of it?
Mr. CURRY - They asked us if we wouldn't bring him out there, they didn't think their cameras would show through the screen. And as I repeated, when this was brought up, I asked Mr. Wade, the district attorney, if he saw anything wrong with this and he said "No; I don't see anything wrong with this," so we agreed to do this.
Representative FORD - Who was in charge of the actual showup operation?
Mr. CURRY - The jail personnel would have brought him down from downstairs and brought him into the room and then removed him.
Representative FORD - Who handled the actual process of identification or attempted identification by various witnesses?
Mr. CURRY - Usually Captain Fritz or some of his homicide detectives are present. I know when they were having a showup for a little lady, I don't know her name but she was a waitress who observed the shooting of the officer, I just--I wasn't there during the entire showup but I was present part of the showup and Captain Fritz was asking her to observe these people and see if she could pick out the man she saw who shot the officer and she didn't identify Oswald at that time.
Representative FORD - Did you say the actual process that was--that took place in these several showups was similar to or different from the showups in other cases?
Mr. CURRY - The only one where we didn't have any particular witnesses to show him up to, but the number of the news media had asked if they couldn't see him and it was almost impossible for all of them to see him up in this hallway and we decided that the best thing to do, if we were going to let them see him at all would be to take them and get them into a room, and then there was utter confusion after we did that because they tried to overrun him after we got him there and we immediately removed him and took him back upstairs.
Representative FORD - You mentioned earlier there had been some allegations to the effect that Oswald had been badly treated.
Mr. CURRY - There was---I didn't hear this myself but someone told me, I don't recall who it was, that some of the news media, I understood this was broadcast over the radio and TV.
Representative FORD - Did you investigate that rumor?
Mr. CURRY - Yes, sir.
Representative FORD - What did you find out?
Mr. CURRY - I found he had not been mistreated.
Representative FORD - You checked with all the police personnel who had anything to do with it?
Mr. CURRY - Everyone I knew about and the only marks on him was, that I could see there was a slight mark on his face up here, and this was received when he was fighting the officers in that theatre, and they had to subdue him and in the scuffle, this episode in the theatre, he apparently received a couple of marks on his face.
But he didn't complain to me about it. I think he--one of the times he was coming down the hall someone asked him what was the matter with his eye and he said, "A cop hit me," I believe, or "A policeman hit me."
Representative FORD - Did you ask Oswald whether he had been mistreated?
Mr. CURRY - I don't believe I did, sir.
Representative FORD - But you talked to Oswald on one or more occasions?
Mr. CURRY - I don't know that I ever asked him any questions at all. I was present during the interrogation, but he was very sullen and arrogant and he didn't have much to say to anybody. Fritz, I think did more talking to him than anybody else.
Representative FORD - But not in your presence did he object to any treatment he received from the Dallas police force?
Mr. CURRY - No, sir; I would like to say for the record that we are very strict on our officers in the treatment of prisoners, and we have a personnel section setup that any person who complains that they have been mistreated by the police officer, a thorough investigation is made, and if it is determined that he has been mistreated in any way, disciplinary action is taken, and on occasion we have, not frequently, but on occasion where we have found that this has been true we have dismissed personnel for mistreating a prisoner, so our personnel know positively this is not tolerated regardless of who it is.
Mr. RANKIN - Chief, you have described a showup, and you have also described the general practice. You have also described showups in regard to Oswald and you said there were several of them.
Mr. CURRY - When I said several, to the best of my knowledge there were perhaps three altogether.
Mr. RANKIN - Yes, one you were describing when the screen was not used was not for the purpose of identification, is that right?
Mr. CURRY - No, sir; unless some of the news media had come forward and said, "We saw that man"; you see a lot of that news media, that was present, were with the Presidential party and there is a possibility that some of them might have said we saw this man to leave the scene.
Mr. RANKIN - So the principal reason was to allow the news media?
Mr. CURRY - The principal reason was at their request that they be allowed to see the prisoner.
Mr. RANKIN - And he wasn't placed back of the screen at that time?
Mr. CURRY - No, sir; he was not.
Mr. RANKIN - And whatever identification there would be would be under the hope that they might have seen him?
Mr. CURRY - They might have seen him because a great number of the news media were at the scene of the shooting or in the immediate area.
Mr. RANKIN - And that is the particular showup when you learned later Jack Ruby was supposed to have been present?
Mr. CURRY - I was told that he was present. That someone had. seen him back in this room. He easily could have been there as far as I was concerned because I wouldn't have known him from anyone else.
Mr. RANKIN - At the other showups, were witnesses there to try to identify Oswald?
Mr. CURRY - Yes, there were.
Mr. RANKIN - How were those handled, do you know?
Mr. CURRY - Exactly the same manner except that he was brought in behind the screen, and was handcuffed to some police officers or other prisoners.
Mr. RANKIN - Do you know who was there to try to identify him?
Mr. CURRY - Only on one occasion. This was a little lady that was a waitress.
Mr. RANKIN - Mrs. Markham?
Mr. CURRY - I believe her name was Mrs. Markham.
Mr. RANKIN - Do you believe whether she was able to identify him?
Mr. CURRY - Yes, I heard her tell Captain Fritz that was the man she saw shoot the officer.
Mr. RANKIN - And that was Officer Tippit?
Mr. CURRY - Yes, sir.
Mr. RANKIN - What kind of a reputation did Officer Tippit have with the police force?
Mr. DULLES - Could I ask one question before that. Were you present when any members of Oswald's family, his wife, his mother, saw him or talked with him?
Mr. CURRY - No, sir; I was not.
Mr. DULLES - Do you know whether any of your officers were?
Mr. CURRY - I understood they were brought to the third floor of the city hall and were placed in a room, and that if any of them were present it probably would have been Captain Fritz.
Mr. DULLES - He would know about it?
Mr. CURRY - I believe he would, yes.
Mr. DULLES - Thank you.
Mr. RANKIN - Will you tell us what Officer Tippit's reputation was with your police force?
Mr. CURRY - He had a reputation of being a very fine, dedicated officer.
Mr. RANKIN - How long had he been with you?
Mr. CURRY - I believe he came to work for us in 1952, after he had had service in the paratroopers, I believe, and he had made several jumps into Europe. He was raised in a rural community, and he was very well thought of by the people in the community where he grew up. He was a rather quiet, serious minded young man. He seemed to be very devoted to his family, and he was an active church man.
Mr. RANKIN - What was his rank?
Mr. CURRY - Patrolman. He was not a real aggressive type. officer. In fact, he seemed to be just a little bit shy, if you were to meet him, I believe, shy, retiring type, but certainly not afraid of anything. I think in his personnel investigation it showed that during, as he was growing up, sometimes his shyness was mistaken for perhaps fear, but that it only took a time or two for someone to exploit this to find out it wasn't fear. It was merely a quiet, shy-type individual.
Mr. RANKIN - Was there any record in the police department of any disciplinary action toward him?
Mr. CURRY - The only disciplinary action ever taken was he was given a day off one time because he had missed court on two occasions.
Mr. DULLES - Missed what?
Mr. CURRY - Missed court.
Mr. RANKIN - He had been unable to testify or something?
Mr. CURRY - Yes, sir; in city court they have to appear 1 day a week. They are notified each week to appear but they are told on one day will be their court day and if any cases coming up it would be that time. And on two occasions he failed to appear. I think one time he forgot it and I think another time he said he was tied up on a radio call or something and didn't notify him and it is just a departmental policy if you miss court twice you are given a day off for it.
Mr. RANKIN - Was that the penalty that was imposed?
Mr. CURRY - Yes, it was. He took it in very good graces, he didn't feel like he was being mistreated.
Mr. RANKIN - That was the only disciplinary action against him?
Mr. CURRY - Yes, sir; there was one other complaint in his file, where he had stopped a lady and given her a ticket and also had given her, he gave her two tickets, one for no operator's license, and after he had issued the tickets she found her driver's license, and she called to him across the street, and said something about she found her license and he told her okay, show it in court, but she thought he was being rather abrupt and discourteous to her, she felt like he should have come back over and taken this ticket for driver's license and destroyed it.
Under our rules and regulations you cannot destroy a ticket; if it is destroyed it has to be accounted in our auditor's office and that was the only complaint in the years on the force.
Mr. DULLES - A rumor reached me that Officer Tippit had been some way involved in some narcotic trouble, I don't know what the foundation of that is. Do you know anything about that at all?
Mr. CURRY - Nothing whatsoever; no, sir.
Representative FORD - You mean you know nothing about it or you checked it out and there is no validity?
Mr. CURRY - This is the first I ever heard of it that he was involved in any narcotics.
Representative FORD - But your records, so far as you know, would not indicate such?
Mr. CURRY - No, sir.
Mr. DULLES - Thank you.
Mr. MCCLOY - Did you, so far as you know, did Tippit know Ruby?
Mr. CURRY - I don't believe he did. I am sure he didn't. He would not be the type I think that would even have any occasion to know him because some of the officers that we found that did know him, either worked in the area where he had a night club or some of the officers that worked in the vice squad. who had occasion to go in and inspect these cases or a few officers we found they went out there for social purposes, outside their regular duty.
Tippit, for a number of years, had been assigned out in Oak Cliff. I don't think he had ever been assigned in an area where Jack Ruby--well Jack Ruby did live in Oak Cliff but I am sure, to the best of my knowledge, Tippit never had any occasion to be around Jack Ruby.
Mr. DULLES - Was Tippit at the time he was killed on a regular assigned assignment or was he just roving in a particular area?
Mr. CURRY - On this particular day, now he had been assigned to Oak Cliff for several months farther out than he was, but when this incident occurred at the Texas School Book Depository, this is customary policy in the police department if something happens on this district and tying up several squads that the squads from the other district automatically move in in a position where they can cover off or something else might happen here, much the same as fire equipment does, this is automatic.
Mr. RANKIN - Will you explain that further?
Mr. CURRY - Yes, sir; say two squads were to get a call in an area, and this area here, say they had a big fire or something, they brought two or three squads in here from adjoining districts, then automatically these squads out in these other areas would begin to cover off or get in a position to where if instead of staying out here on the far side of this district, they would perhaps move into this district right here where they could answer here, here or over into here. This is Just automatic patrol policy. On this particular day, some of the squads in this Oak Cliff area had been ordered over into the Dallas area, this Texas School Book Depository, and some of these other outlying squads then, I think we have this on a radio log, I don't know whether you have this or not, were 78 or 81.
Mr. BALL - Why don't you read it in the record, a definite order for Tippit to come in there.
Mr. CURRY - Right here. This would have been at approximately 12:45, I believe. Here is the description came out at about 12:45. The dispatcher put out a description of attention all squads.
Mr. DULLES - What do you mean by description?
Mr. CURRY - Of a suspect.
Mr. DULLES - I see, description of Oswald?
Mr. CURRY - Yes.
Mr. RANKIN - What are you reading from, Chief?
Mr. CURRY - This is radio log record from the Dallas Police Department, as recorded on November 22.
Mr. RANKIN - Is that from Commission Document 728?
Mr. DULLES - I want to correct my question, it was a man seen leaving?
Mr. CURRY - It was a description of a suspect.
Mr. DULLES - You didn't know it was Oswald?
Mr. RANKIN - Will you tell us what. the rest of that notation is?
Mr. CURRY - Dispatcher put out this description, "attention all squads Elm and Houston, unknown white male person approximately 30, slender build, height 5 feet 10, 160 pounds, reported to be armed with what is believed to be a .30-caliber rifle. Attention all squads, the suspect is believed to be white male 30, 5 feet 10 inches, slender build, armed with what is thought to be a .30-30 rifle, no further description at this time."
This was at 12:45 p.m.
Mr. RANKIN - What channel are you talking about?
Mr. CURRY - Channel 1.
Mr. RANKIN - You had more than one channel?
Mr. CURRY - Two channels.
Mr. RANKIN - Yes.
Mr. CURRY - Someone came in, they didn't identify themselves and came in and said what are they wanted for, and they said signal 19 which is a shooting under our code involving the President.
Representative FORD - Did Tippit's motorcycle have channel 1?
Mr. CURRY - He was in a squad car and most of our squad cars have channel 1 and 2, but they stay on channel 1 unless they are instructed to switch over to channel 2.
Mr. DULLES - He did have channel 1?
Mr. CURRY - Yes. Now within the minute of broadcasting, a little further on, squads 102 and 233 checked out at Elm and Houston, 81 came in the district squad, that was an Oak Cliff squad. He said "I will be going north from Industrial on Corinth." That means he was leaving the Oak Cliff section coming toward the downtown section of Dallas.
Representative FORD - By he who do you mean?
Mr. CURRY - The man assigned to district 81, and I don't have his name but it would be on our records.
Then Tippit was working 78 and he along with district 87, which is further out in Oak Cliff, at about 12:45, between 12:45 and 12:46, the dispatcher sent out this message to him, "87-78 moving into central Oak Cliff area."
Now the central Oak Cliff area would have been the area nearby where this shooting occurred.
Representative FORD - Shooting of Tippit?
Mr. CURRY - Shooting of Tippit occurred. I am sure---a little later on here, be says "you are in Oak Cliff area, are you not," and he said "at Lancaster and 8th", that would be just several blocks from where this shooting then occurred.
Mr. MCCLOY - This is Tippit's reply going in?
Mr. CURRY - Yes.
Mr. RANKIN - The next sentence also says something, Chief?
Mr. CURRY - And the dispatcher told him, "You will be at large for any emergency that comes in." In other words, he was one of the remaining squads in Oak Cliff that was in service.
Mr. DULLES - What does that mean, scout around the area?
Mr. CURRY - Anywhere in that central area, Oak Cliff.
Mr. MCCLOY - Did he reply to that?
Mr. CURRY - He said "10-4".
Mr. RANKIN - What does that mean?
Mr. CURRY - It means message received.
Mr. RANKIN - Doesn't that mean approval?
Mr. CURRY - Yes, sir.
Representative FORD - These are transcriptions of communications back and forth?
Mr. CURRY - That is recorded on our radio there in Dallas.
Mr. RANKIN - Is there a tape recorder on that?
Mr. CURRY - Yes; and it is kept for a permanent record.
Mr. RANKIN - Was there any other shooting in this particular area where Officer Tippit was that morning, do you know?
Mr. CURRY - Not to my knowledge.
Mr. DULLES - Is that 10-4 message the last message you received from Tippit?
Mr. CURRY - As far as I know that is the last word we heard from him.
Mr. MCCLOY - Was this description of the suspect the first description that went out?
Mr. CURRY - As far as I know, it is.
Mr. DULLES - That was at 12:45, as I recall.
Mr. CURRY - Approximately, yes.
 

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. RANKIN - When did you first learn of Officer Tippit's murder?
Mr. CURRY - While I was out at Parkland Hospital. That is after we had taken the President there and the Governor, and we were waiting there.
Mr. RANKIN - Now, on these showups for Lee Oswald, did you have any special security arrangements about bringing him in among all this crowd of news people?
Mr. CURRY - We had some police officers bringing him down. I was there, Captain Fritz went, I don't believe he went inside the door. He went to the door, I believe. There were several officers there, yes.
Mr. RANKIN - Was this more than usual?
Mr. CURRY - Perhaps so; yes. Ordinarily there would have been maybe a jailer and a Jail guard with the prisoner. And there would have been the detective out with the witnesses.
Mr. RANKIN - Were you disturbed about the security for Lee Oswald with all this crowd?
Mr. CURRY - Not at that time. I really didn't suspect any trouble from the news media. I thought they were there doing a professional job of reporting the news and I had no reason to be concerned about the news media.

Mr. RANKIN - Did it concern you that there were so many additional people to try to keep track of as well as----
Mr. CURRY - Yes, sir; it did.
Mr. RANKIN - What did you do about it?
Mr. CURRY - I didn't do anything about it but I was concerned about it. I was thinking that we were going to have to, in the event we have had an incident like this occur again, that we would have to. make some different arrangements for the press. We couldn't, when I say the press, the news media, we couldn't have the city hall overrun like this.
Mr. RANKIN - Did it occur to you to do anything about stopping it right then?
Mr. CURRY - No. I didn't discuss it with any of my staff that we should clear all these people out of here and get them outside the city hall.
Mr. RANKIN - You gave no consideration to that kind of approach?
Mr. CURRY - Not at the time.
Mr. RANKIN - Now after the interrogation of Oswald, did you make some decision about moving him?
Mr. CURRY - Not at that particular time. It is customary after we file on a person that he be removed from the city hall.
Mr. RANKIN - What do you mean by file on a person?
Mr. CURRY - File a case against him and that is necessary to go to the district attorney's office usually, and in this case the district attorney was there and we filed it at the city hall because the district attorney was with us.
Mr. RANKIN - A criminal complaint?
Mr. CURRY - A criminal complaint. After we file this complaint it is customary for the prisoner to be transferred from the city to the county jail and to remain in custody until he makes bond or is brought to trial
Mr. RANKIN - That is a regular practice?
Mr. CURRY - Yes, sir. These transfers are usually made by the sheriff's office, sometime during the morning.
Mr. RANKIN - By the sheriff's office you mean it is the sheriff's responsibility?
Mr. CURRY - Routine transfers are made. It is not a hard and fast custom. Many times we will take the prisoner to the sheriff.
Mr. RANKIN - Who decides which way you will do it?
Mr. CURRY - It is left up to the bureau commander.
Mr. RANKIN - What do you mean by the bureau commander?
Mr. CURRY - That is handling the case.
Mr. RANKIN - Who would that be in this case?
Mr. CURRY - In this case it would have been Captain Fritz.
Mr. RANKIN - And he decides then in all cases of this type whether or not the police will take him across to the sheriff's jail or the sheriff will come and get him?
Mr. CURRY - Yes, sir; ordinarily it wouldn't even come to my attention how it was handled.
Mr. RANKIN - Did it come to your attention this time?
Mr. CURRY - It did this time. I had asked, it seemed to me like it was on Saturday after he had been filed on late or early Friday morning, the news media many times had asked me when are you going to transfer him and I said, "I don't know."
Mr. RANKIN - What do you mean by "early Friday morning?"
Mr. CURRY - I mean early Saturday morning. Late Friday night or early Saturday morning.
Representative FORD - Where do you actually do this filing?
Mr. CURRY - Ordinarily our detectives would go down to the courthouse which is right near where the President was assassinated and file it in the district attorney's office. However, in this case the district attorney and also his assistant was up at the city hall with us, and we drew up the complaints there at the city hall.
Mr. RANKIN - Who do you mean by we?
Mr. CURRY - When I say we, I mean the Dallas police officers and the homicide officers working in this case.
Mr. RANKIN - I see.
Representative FORD - What evidence did you have at that point?
Mr. CURRY - I couldn't tell you all the evidence. I think Captain Fritz can tell you better than I. Captain Fritz Just told me on Friday afternoon he said, "We have sufficient evidence to file a case on Oswald for the murder of Tippit." Later on that night, somewhere around midnight, I believe, he told me, he said, "We now have sufficient evidence to file on Lee Harvey Oswald for the assassination of President Kennedy."
He told me he had talked it over with Henry Wade and with the assistant district attorney and they agreed we had enough evidence to file a case, and a decision was made then to file the case, which we did.
Representative FORD - At that time you had the rifle, did you not?
Mr. CURRY - Yes, sir.
Representative FORD - Who made the original identification of the rifle, the kind of rifle that it was?
Mr. CURRY - I don't know, sir.
Representative FORD - It was reported that the original identification was a 7.65 Mauser. Are those reports true or untrue?
Mr. CURRY - I wouldn't know, sir.
Representative FORD - You don't know?
Mr. CURRY - I don't know.
Representative FORD - Do you know when it was finally determined that it was not a 7.65 Mauser?
Mr. CURRY - No, sir; I don't know that.
Mr. MCCLOY - As far as I know there was no police report that it was a 7.65 rifle.
 

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. RANKIN - Chief Curry, do you know of any police records of your police department that showed that this weapon that was purportedly involved in the assassination was a Mauser rifle?
Mr. CURRY - No, sir; not to my knowledge.
Representative FORD - All of your records show affirmatively it was the Italian rifle?
Mr. CURRY - Yes, sir. That is correct.
Mr. MCCLOY - While we are waiting for Mr. Rankin to continue his examination, let me ask you this question, Chief.
Did you, prior to the assassination, know or hear of Oswald?
Mr. CURRY - Never.
Mr. MCCLOY - Didn't hear that he had been--there was a defector named Oswald in the city of Dallas?
Mr. CURRY - No, sir.
Mr. MCCLOY - Never heard of his name?
Mr. CURRY - We didn't have it in our files.
Representative FORD - Was there anything in your files that Lee Harvey Oswald had been involved with the Dallas police force?
Mr. CURRY - No, sir.
Representative FORD - No record whatsoever?
Mr. CURRY - No, sir.
Mr. DULLES - Was there any record of his having made a trip to the Soviet Union and returned?
Mr. CURRY - Not in our files.
Mr. DULLES - And returned to Texas?
Mr. CURRY - We didn't have anything in our files regarding Lee Harvey Oswald.
Senator COOPER - Could I follow up on that, did you have any record of any individuals, persons, in Dallas, or the area, who because of any threats of violence against the President or any Communist background required you to take any special security measures?
Mr. CURRY - Yes, sir; when we have notables, celebrities visiting us, there are some groups in Dallas that are known to be extreme rightwing and extreme leftwing groups. We try to keep track of these people and what their plans are. We have been able to infiltrate most of their organizations.
Senator COOPER - Now prior to the President's visit, did you take any--did the Dallas Police force take any special security measures about any persons that you might suspect of possible violence?
Mr. CURRY - Yes, sir; we kept some people under surveillance or groups under surveillance. We had prior to this visit, we had some information brought to us, I don't know who brought it to us, that there was a man in Sherman or Denison, who said that he is going to see that the President was embarrassed when he came to Dallas.
Senator COOPER - Who was that man, do you know?
Mr. DULLES - We have a Secret Service report, I believe with regard to this case. Here is one from the chief of police of Denton, Tex.
Mr. CURRY - Yes; we had some information that the students at North Texas were planning some demonstrations.
Senator COOPER - My question is, did your police force take any special security measures about anyone that you felt might be capable of violence against the President?
Mr. CURRY - Not at this particular time, because we had reports from the different groups, and we had information from inside these groups that they were not planning to do anything on the day the President was there. We knew that General Walker was out of the city, and we knew that his group that sometimes put on demonstrations.
Senator COOPER - When you say planning, you are not limiting it to any violence, but you are talking about any possible demonstrations?
Mr. CURRY - Yes; demonstrations.
Senator COOPER - I want to come back to that point later, but I want to ask this, outside of what you had in your police files, your records, did you know yourself, or did you know whether anyone in authority in the police force or anyone in the police force, to your knowledge, had any knowledge of the presence of Oswald in Dallas?
Mr. CURRY - No, sir; I have asked my criminal intelligence section, which would have been the persons who had knowledge of this.
Senator COOPER - Had anyone informed you that he was working in the Texas School Book Depository Building?
Mr. CURRY - No, sir.
Mr. DULLES - Had he ever tangled with the Dallas Police in any respect of which there is any record?
Mr. CURRY - We have no record at all of him.
Representative FORD - Did the Secret Service people inquire of you as to your knowledge of these various groups that you had infiltrated?
Mr. CURRY - I don't remember them specifically asking me what were these groups planning to do.
Representative FORD - Did you volunteer any information on it?
Mr. CURRY - I think perhaps we told them what we had done. They were aware of the fact that we did know the plans of the various organizations, and I know we sent Lieutenant Revill and a couple of his men up to Denison, or Denton, to talk to a man that had purportedly said they were going to embarrass the President and had made some remarks about it and after we talked with him he said, "I won't even be in Dallas. I was just pepping off. I will assure you I am not even going to be down there. I don't want any part of it"
Then some of the study group in North Texas, we had an informant in this group, and they had decided they would be in Dallas with some placards to express opinions about the President or some of his views. Some of these people were arrested after the shooting because we were afraid that the people were going to harm them. They were down around the Trade Mart with some placards.
Senator COOPER - I have a couple of more questions.
Do you remember the full page advertisement that was in the Dallas paper?
Mr. CURRY - I saw it; yes.
Senator COOPER - Directed against the President of the United States?
Mr. CURRY - Yes.
Senator COOPER - What date did you give that statement in making any kind of preparations for his visit?
Mr. CURRY - In the first place, I didn't think it was very appropriate, it makes us apprehensive, a little more apprehensive of the security of the President, but we were doing everything that I knew we could do to protect him. I will never forget that as we turned to go down toward that underpass the remark was made, "We have almost got it made," and I was very relieved that we had brought him through this downtown area, and were fixing to get on this expressway where we could take him out to the Trade Mart where we had a tremendous amount of security set up for him.
Senator COOPER - Since the assassination, have you had any actual factors or any evidence or information of any kind which would indicate that any person other than Oswald was involved in the assassination of President Kennedy?
Mr. CURRY - No, sir; I have not.
Mr. DULLES - Was any investigation made of, I believe it was Weissman, or somebody by that name, who inserted this advertisement to which Senator Cooper referred, was any particular investigation made?
Mr. CURRY - Not any investigation by us.
 

(At this point, Representative Ford withdrew from the hearing room.)

Mr. MCCLOY - I have one question.
Did you since the assassination or before have any information or any credible information which would indicate that there was any connection between Ruby and Oswald?
Mr. CURRY - No, sir; we were not able to establish any connection between them.
Mr. MCCLOY - You made a thorough investigation of that?
Mr. CURRY - Yes, sir; we made every attempt to prove or disprove an association between them, and we were not able to connect the two.
Mr. MCCLOY - Do you intend to ask the chief about the General Walker episode?
Mr. RANKIN - Yes; and also about the Ruby episode.
Mr. MCCLOY - I think that is all I have at the moment.
Mr. RANKIN - Chief, I put in front of you there as Exhibit 705, now marked as "Exhibit 705," your radio log that you have just been looking at and referred to, is that right?
Mr. CURRY - Yes, sir.
Mr. RANKIN - Will you turn to the page there where you find the first broadcast of the description of the suspect of the assassination of the President? Is that on your page 6 or thereabouts?
Mr. CURRY - The pages--yes, it is page 6, channel 1.
Mr. RANKIN - Will you tell what time of the day that is recorded as having been made?
Mr. CURRY - This shows at the end the broadcast to be 12:45 p.m. It would be on November 22d.
Mr. RANKIN - Mr. Chairman, I would like to offer Exhibit 705 being this radio log which covers a great many matters, but in light of the importance of the time and the description and all, I think the entire log should go in and then we can refer to different items in it.
Mr. DULLES - It will be admitted as Commission's Exhibit No. 705.
 

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 705, and received in evidence.)

Mr. RANKIN - Now, will you read to the Commission a description that was given at that time of the suspect of the assassination?
Mr. CURRY - The broadcast reads as follows: "Attention all squads. Attention all squads. At Elm and Houston, reported to be an unknown white male, approximately 30, slender build, height 5 feet 10 inches, 165 pounds. Reported to be armed with what is believed to be a .30-caliber rifle.
"Attention all squads, the suspect is believed to be white male, 30, 5 feet 10 inches, slender build, 165 pounds, armed with what is thought to be a .30-.30 rifle. No further description or information at this time. KKB there 64 Dallas, and the time given as 12:45 p.m."
Mr. RANKIN - You have described Officer Tippit's number?
Mr. CURRY - District 78.
Mr. RANKIN - And that is recorded along the left-hand side when there is any message either from him or to him, is that right?
Mr. CURRY - That is correct.
Mr. RANKIN - Do you find there a message directed to him about moving to the central Oak Cliff area?
Mr. CURRY - Yes, sir.
Mr. RANKIN - And what time is that message recorded?
Mr. CURRY - Immediately following this dispatch to him to district squads 87 and 78, EBG 78.
Mr. RANKIN - What time?
Mr. CURRY - The time is given as 12:46.
Mr. RANKIN - What does it say?
Mr. CURRY - The dispatcher asked him "87 and 78" or instructed him "Move into the central Oak Cliff area."
Mr. RANKIN - Did he respond to that?
Mr. CURRY - A little later he did.
Mr. RANKIN - When?
Mr. CURRY - We have he was asked his location, would be about 1 o'clock.
Mr. RANKIN - Did he say what it was?
Mr. CURRY - He didn't come back in at that time. At 1:08 p.m. they called him again.
Mr. RANKIN - Did he respond?
Mr. CURRY - It is at 12:54. The dispatcher said, "78" and he responded, he said, "You are in the Oak Cliff area, are you not?"
Seventy-eight responded and said, "Lancaster and 8," which would be in the central section of Oak Cliff.
The dispatcher said, "You will be at large for any emergency that comes in."
And he responded, "10-4," which means message received. And he would follow those instructions.
Mr. RANKIN - Do you have an item there of a broadcast of a person who murdered Tippit?
Mr. CURRY - We have apparently--a citizen came in on the radio and he said, "Somebody shot a police officer at 404 10th Street." Someone in the background said 78, squad 78, car No. 10. And the citizen said, "You get that?" and the dispatcher said, "78."
And there was no response and the citizen said, "Hello, police operator, did you get that?" Some other unknown voice came in and said, "510 East Jefferson."
Mr. RANKIN - What time of the day?
Mr. CURRY - This was about 1:15; 1:19 is the next time that shows up on the radio log. The dispatcher at 1:19 said, "The subject is running west on Jefferson from the location."
Citizen came back in on the radio and said, "From out here on 10th street, 500 block, the police officer just shot, I think he is dead."
Dispatcher said, "10-4, we have the information."
The citizen using the radio remained off the radio.
Dispatcher to 15, he was the sergeant, said, "Did you receive the information of police officer shot?"
And he said, "10-4, but didn't that citizen say first he was on Jefferson and 10th and then Chesapeake?" And he said, "Yes."
And he said, "Do they relate?"
And he said, "Yes, at Denver, 19 will be there shortly," that is a sergeant or a lieutenant.
Ninety-one came on and said, "Have a signal 19 involving a police officer at 400 block East 10th. The suspect last seen running west on Jefferson, no description at this time."
The dispatcher came in and said, "The suspect just passed 401 East Jefferson."
Dispatcher then says, "Give us the correct location on it, 85, we have three different locations."
Eighty-five says, "I haven't seen anything on Jefferson yet, 10-4, check, 491 East 10th at Denver."
Dispatcher repeated, "The subject has just passed 401 East Jefferson."
At 1:22 we have a broadcast here that says, "We have a description on the suspect here on Jefferson, last seen on the 300 block on East Jefferson, a white male, 30, about 5 feet 8, black hair, slender, wearing a white jacket, white shirt and dark slacks, armed with what he states unknown. Repeat the description."
Dispatcher said that to the squad. He says, "Wearing a white Jacket believed to be a white shirt and dark slacks. What is his direction of travel on Jefferson?"
He said, "Travel west on Jefferson, last seen in the 401 West Jefferson, correction, it will be East Jefferson."
The dispatcher then said, "Pick up for investigation of aggravated assault on a police officer, a white male approximately 30, 5 feet 8, slender build, has black hair, white jacket, white shirt, dark trousers. Suspect has been seen running west on Jefferson from the 400 block of East Jefferson at 1:24."
Then they asked about the condition of the officer, and there was something about--the dispatcher did receive some information that there was a man pulled in there on West Davis driving a white Pontiac, a 1961 or 1962 station wagon with a prefix PE, saying he had a rifle laying in the street.
We have a citizen following in a car address unknown direction.
The dispatcher said, "Any unit near Gaston 3600 block, this is about a blood bank."
Then 279 comes in and says, "We believe the suspect on shooting this officer out here got his white Jacket, believed he dumped it in this parking lot behind the service station at 400 block West Jefferson across from Dudley House. He had a white jacket we believe this is it."
"You do not have a suspect, is that correct?"
"No, just the jacket lying on the ground."
There is some more conversation about blood going to Parkland. "What was the description beside the white jacket?"
"White male, 30, 5-8, black hair, slender build, white shirt, white jacket, black trousers, going west on Jefferson from the 300 block."
Squad says, "This is Sergeant Jerry Hill." Says, "I am at 12th and Beckley now, have a man in the car with me that can identify the suspect if anybody gets One."
Mr. RANKIN - Chief Curry, we were furnished a Commission Document No. 290, dated December 5, 1963, that purported. to be a radio log for your department, and it did not have any item in it in regard to instruction to Officer Tippit to go to the Central Oak Cliff area.

Do you know why that would be true?
Mr. CURRY - I don't know why it wasn't in that log except that these logs, after they are recorded, they are pretty difficult to try to take everything off of them, channel 1 and channel 2 is in on them and they spent many hours going over these and copying these.

This would be available and I listened to our recording.
Mr. RANKIN - That is Exhibit 705 you are talking about?
Mr. CURRY - That is right.
Mr. RANKIN - So if there is a discrepancy between the two, are you satisfied that Exhibit 705 is correct?
Mr. CURRY - Is the correct exhibit; yes.
Mr. RANKIN - Commission Document No. 290 does say at the heading that most routine transmissions were left out for reasons of brevity. Would that be any explanation?
Mr. CURRY - Perhaps it could be, yes. Because these would have been routine broadcasts. The fact the squad was moving into this area because this is more or less normal procedure when we have incidents occurring of any magnitude, the squads immediately begin moving in to cover officers of the district.
Mr. RANKIN - You were going to tell us about how it came to your attention about the moving of Lee Oswald to the jail from your place on Saturday?
Mr. CURRY - To the county jail?
Mr. RANKIN - Yes.
Mr. CURRY - Yes, sir.
I asked Captain Fritz a time or two when he wanted to move Oswald, because this is left up to him. Whoever will be handling the case, I mean I don't enter in the transfer of prisoners, I don't ordinarily even know when they are going to be transferred.

Mr. RANKIN - Why is that?
Mr. CURRY - It is just a routine matter.
Mr. RANKIN - Can you tell us is that involved quite a few times in your operations?
Mr. CURRY - Yes, sir. Usually it is a daily transfer of prisoners, and usually the sheriff's office sends up there and picks them up on routine prisoners.
Mr. RANKIN - Are there a number each day?
Mr. CURRY - I would say perhaps anywhere from maybe none to 15 a day.
Mr. RANKIN - When did you talk to Officer or Captain Fritz about this?
Mr. CURRY - I think I talked to him some on Saturday, because the newspaper people or the news media kept asking me when are going to transfer him?
Mr. RANKIN - That would be November 23?
Mr. CURRY - Yes; and I said this I don't know because that would be left up to the men doing the interrogation. When they felt like they were finished with him and wanted to transfer him or when Sheriff Decker said, "We want the man."
Mr. RANKIN - Did you have anything to do with his transfer then?
Mr. CURRY - Other than to, I called Sheriff Decker on Sunday morning and he said, I told him and I think he had talked to Fritz prior to that time, too, and he told Fritz, he says, "Don't bring him down here until I get some security set up for him."
So, Sunday morning I talked to Sheriff Decker.
Mr. RANKIN - Why didn't you do it at night?
Mr. CURRY.- This is not customary to transfer prisoners at night.
Mr. RANKIN - Why?
Mr. CURRY - Well, in talking with Captain Fritz, and here again the prisoner was his, and when some of my captains, I believe it was perhaps Lieutenant Swain, it is in the record somewhere said something about, "Do you think we ought to move him at night?"
And Captain Fritz was not in favor of moving him at night because he said, "If anything does occur you can't see, anybody can immediately get out of sight, and if anything is going, to happen we want to know where we can see and see what is happening."

Mr. RANKIN - Were you fearful something might happen?
Mr. CURRY - I didn't know. I thought it could happen because of a feeling of a great number of people. But I certainly didn't think anything to happen in city hall. I thought that if anything did happen to him it would probably be en route from the city jail to the county jail.
Mr. RANKIN - What precautions did you take?
Mr. CURRY - The precautions that were taken, when I came in on Sunday morning, now Captain Fritz, I had talked to him on Saturday night or Saturday evening anyway, and he said, he thought he would be ready to transfer him by 10 o'clock the next morning, that would be Sunday morning.
Mr. RANKIN - Did you tell that to the media?
Mr. CURRY - I told them at some time after that. Several of them asked me when are you going to transfer him, and I said, I don't know.
They said, "Are you going to transfer him tonight," and I said, "No, we are not going to transfer him tonight." I said, "We are tired. We are going home and get some rest."
Something was said about well, we are tired, too. When should we come back, and I think that this is recorded in some of the tape recording, that I told them if you are back here by 10 o'clock in the morning, I don't think that you would miss anything you want to see.
Mr. RANKIN - What did you do then about precautions?
Mr. CURRY - The next morning when I came in, that would be about 8:30, 8:45, I think, parked in the basement of city hall, I started up to the elevator and I noticed they had moved some cameras into a hallway down in the basement and I told Lieutenant Wiggins who is in the jail office, I said, "These things will have to be moved out of here, and I also told Chief Batchelor, and Chief Stevenson, Assistant Chief Batchelor, and Assistant Chief in Charge of Investigations Stevenson who came down in the basement at the time.
Mr. RANKIN - Those were TV cameras?
Mr. CURRY - That was in the lobby or in near the lobby of the jail office. I told them they were would have to move those out of there. This was also in the parking area, there was a ramp come down from Main Street and goes out on Commerce Street, and then there is a parking area east of this.
I told Lieutenant Wiggins who was there, I said, "Now, move these squad can," there was a transfer car there and a squad car, "move these cars out of this area and if the news media wants down here put them over behind these railings, back over in the basement here."
Then that is all I did at that time. I saw that they were setting up some security. A little while later Chief Batchelor and Chief Stevenson went downstairs and found Captain Talbert who was the platoon commander, radio platoon commander had some sergeants down there and they were setting up security and were told clean everything out of the basement and not let anybody in here, I think the depositions will show that, not let anybody in except police officers and news media who had proper credentials.

Mr. RANKIN - What about the various entrances, was anything done about that?
Mr. CURRY - Well, the entrances to the basement, yes, and the entrances from the basement of city hall out into the basement proper where the cars come in.
Mr. RANKIN - What was done about that?
Mr. CURRY - Every entrance there were guards put on it with instructions not to let anyone come or go except police officers or news people that had proper credentials.
Mr. RANKIN - What entrances are there to the basement?
Mr. CURRY - This is a Main Street entrance for vehicles, that would be on the north side of the building. There is a Commerce Street exit which would be on the south side of the building, on the west side downstairs there is an entrance from the jail corridor where the public goes to the jail window into the basement of the parking area. Then there are some elevators that come from the municipal building, that come down to the basement level. There are also, there is also an opening that goes from this basement down into a subbasement where the maintenance men have their offices.
 

(At this point, Senator Cooper left the hearing room.)

Mr. RANKIN - And each one of those was guarded?
MMr. CURRY - Yes, sir.
Mr. RANKIN - Throughout the time?
Mr. CURRY - Yes, sir.
Mr. RANKIN - What other precautions were made?
Mr. CURRY - There were a great number of police reservists and detectives and uniformed officers, I think there was a total, I believe of about 74 men in this area between the jail office and the immediate area where he would be loaded.
Mr. RANKIN - How large an area was that?
Mr. CURRY - Well, where he would be brought out of the Jail office to put him in this car, would be, I would say, 15 or 20 feet, and then this building, this ramp runs from one street to the other, and the parking area would cover a block wide and perhaps 150 feet deep.
Mr. RANKIN - Were there cars in the parking area?
Mr. CURRY - Some cars were them. They had been searched out, all of them. All of the vehicles had been searched, and all the, where the airconditioning ducts were, they had all been searched, every place where a person could conceal himself had been searched out.

Mr. RANKIN - Was there a plan for an armored car?
Mr. CURRY - Yes, sir; there was.
Mr. RANKIN - What happened about that?
Mr. CURRY - After they had gotten the armored car down there, in talking with Captain Fritz, and here again this prisoner was his responsibility and I don't want to be in a position of just overriding him, and I was willing to trust his judgment, he had been doing this for, like I say, nearly 40 years, and he said, "Chief, I would prefer not to use that armored car, I don't know who the driver is. It is awkward to handle and if anybody tries to do anything to us, I am afraid we would be surrounded. I would prefer to put him in a police car with some of my men following him, and get in and just take him right down Main Street and slip him into the jail."
So I said, "It will be all right with me if you want to do it that way but let's not say anything about this."
Mr. RANKIN - Now the armored car was not a Dallas police car, was it?
Mr. CURRY - No; it was not.
Mr. RANKIN - It was one you were arranging to get from----
Mr. CURRY - I believe his name was Mr. Sherrell, who was the manager of the Armored Motor Service there in Dallas.
Mr. RANKIN - And they would furnish a driver with it?
Mr. CURRY - Yes.
Mr. RANKIN - What else was done, if anything?
Mr. CURRY - We went ahead with our plans and we instructed the officers that would be involved in this transfer they would go east on Commerce Street, north to Elm Street, west on Elm Street to Houston Street, and then back south on Houston to the rear entrance of the county jail.
Mr. RANKIN - How many officers would be involved in the transfer?
Mr. CURRY - In the actual transfer, I would think perhaps 15 or 18 besides the men that were stationed at the intersections downtown.
Mr. RANKIN - How far would it be from your police department to the county jail?
Mr. CURRY - I would say 12-15 blocks.
Mr. RANKIN - Were there any other precautions you haven't described?
Mr. CURRY - No, sir; that is about all I know of, except that Captain Fritz wanted to transfer the prisoner in his car, with some of his detectives. This is not unusual. He has transferred many, many prisoners, especially where there is--it is an unusual case involving more than the ordinary routine crime, so it is not anything unusual to transfer him, for him to transfer prisoners.
But, it was then suggested or arranged that they would put his car in a position behind the armored car that we would bring the prisoner out, put him in his car, and he would have two detectives in the back seat with him, plus one driver and two or three detectives following him immediately and there was supposed to be another car to pick. up and go with them or get into a car van with these two.
They would follow the armored motor car and no one would know that he was not in the armored motor car except the reporters downstairs when they saw him come out. They would see he was placed in a car instead of the armored car, and we planned to let the armored car go over the predetermined route, but that Captain Fritz, when he got to Main Street, as you go east on Commerce and turned north to go to Elm Street, that is the second street over, when he got to Main Street they would make a left turn and go right down Main Street to the county jail, and they would turn right on Houston Street and the lead car would pull past the entrance and he would duck in and the gates would be closed and the prisoner would be transferred.
Mr. RANKIN - What happened to these TV cameras that you told them to get out of there?
Mr. CURRY - They moved them back somewhere. I don't know where they moved them but it was away from there.
Mr. RANKIN - Weren't their cameras right there at the time of the shooting?
Mr. CURRY - There were some cameras immediately over, TV cameras, I think over where I had told them to place them earlier that morning. I understood when Chief Batchelor went downstairs and I think Captain Jones of the forgery bureau, immediately prior to the transfer, they found there were some reporters and cameramen in the jail office, and Captain Jones, I believe, asked Chief Batchelor if these should not be removed and he was told yes, they should be removed out into the basement. When they were removed out into the basement instead of them being placed outside of the railing--now this is a decision made by Chief Batchelor, I suppose, because he said put them in the driveway up to the north. Now this is from where Ruby came. So apparently this afforded him an opportunity, from our investigation it was determined that he came down this Main Street ramp.
Mr. RANKIN - How did you determine that?
Mr. CURRY - We interrogated every man that was assigned in the basement. Also every witness who was around there that we could find that knew anything about it.
Mr. RANKIN - Did anyone see him come in on that ramp?
Mr. CURRY - There was a former police officer who told us he saw him go down that ramp, a Negro former police officer.
Mr. RANKIN - Who was that?
Mr. CURRY - I believe his name was Daniels, I think perhaps you have a statement from him, don't you?
Mr. RANKIN - Is he the only one who saw him come in down there?
Mr. CURRY - I believe so.
Mr. RANKIN - Now with these TV cameras down there how would your ruse work about having the armored car go ahead and Oswald climb into Captain Fritz' car? Wouldn't that all be shown on TV?
Mr. CURRY - If it was. We didn't think there would be anybody downtown to be in a position to watching TV that quickly to do anything about it if they wanted to.
Mr. RANKIN - You thought about it though?
Mr. CURRY - Yes.
Mr. RANKIN - What happened? Were you down there at the time?
Mr. CURRY - No, sir; I would have been but I received a call from my mayor and as I was fixing to go downstairs and I wish that I had been downstairs because I don't know that I could have done anything but you always have this feeling if you were there maybe you could have done something.
But I was called to the telephone and while I was talking to the mayor, why I heard some noises from downstairs and I was up on the third floor, and I heard some shouting, and someone came in and told me that Oswald had been shot.
Mr. RANKIN - Did you learn how the shooting occurred?
Mr. CURRY - Yes.
Mr. RANKIN - Will you tell us?
Mr. CURRY - I was told that someone sprang from the crowd and pushed a gun into his stomach and fired a shot.
Mr. RANKIN - Do you know who that was?
Mr. CURRY - I was told that the man was named Jack Ruby.
Mr. RANKIN - What else did you learn about it?
Mr. CURRY - Further investigation revealed, and some of my officers who talked to Ruby and talked to his attorney, I believe, were told that he came down that north ramp, and an investigation revealed that one of our officers, who was assigned there, Officer Vaughn, who was assigned to this location just prior to this transfer.
Mr. RANKIN - That is out on the street?
Mr. CURRY - Main Street side.
Mr. RANKIN - At the entrance?
Mr. CURRY - At the entrance to the basement ramp. He had been assigned there and had been told not to let anybody come in except newspaper reporters or news media or police officers.
Mr. RANKIN - Did you find out what he did?
Mr. CURRY - We discovered or found out subsequently that he, just prior to this transfer, that when we found out we were going to transfer him and not use an armored car that Chief Stevenson had told Lieutenant Pierce "to get a couple of sergeants or a sergeant, get somebody and go around and get in front of the armored car and when we tell you to why you lead off and lead this armored car over here and just over the route we have discussed, and take it to the county jail."
Well, Lieutenant Pierce went downstairs and got a car and he got Sergeant Putnam and I don't recall the other sergeant, and because the ramp that ordinarily we would use for exit ramp to Commerce Street, it was blocked with this armored car and another vehicle, he went out in the wrong direction, that is he went north, up to north, he went north on the ramp to Main Street which ordinarily would not be done, but since he could not get out, why he did, and as he approached the ramp, our investigation showed that Officer Vaughn stepped from his assignment in the entrance to this ramp, and the walk is about 10 or 12 feet wide there, stepped across and just more or less assisted the car to get into the Main Street flow of traffic.
Now he wasn't asked to do this by the lieutenant, but he just did it and according to what Ruby told some of my officers, I believe, whether you have it on the record who he told this to, that he came down that north ramp.
Mr. RANKIN - At that time?
Mr. CURRY - At that time.
Now this would only have been, it couldn't have possibly been over 2 or 3 minutes prior to the shooting, so apparently he went right down that ramp and he got in behind some of these newspaper reporters or news media and detectives, and as Oswald was brought out he sprang from behind one of my detectives and took about two steps and shoved a gun in Oswald's side and pulled the trigger.
This officer, in talking to him, he made a report, he swears that he didn't see anybody go in there.
Mr. RANKIN - By this officer, you mean Vaughn?
Mr. CURRY - Officer Vaughn. He did, I asked him myself or asked the investigating officers to see if he wouldn't take a polygraph test concerning this just to verify his position in it, and he agreed to take the polygraph test and did take the polygraph test and the polygraph test revealed that he was not aware that Ruby came in while he stepped, when he stepped away from the entrance of that door.
Now I am not here to place the blame on anybody because, as I have said previously, as head of the department, I have got to accept the responsibility for what goes on there.
But if Officer Vaughn had properly carried out his assignment, I don't believe that Ruby could have gotten into the basement of the city hall.
Mr. MCCLOY - Unless he had credentials, media credentials?
Mr. CURRY - That is correct.
Mr. MCCLOY - We haven't verified whether or not he did have anything?
Mr. CURRY - We haven't been able to verify that. There were none found on his person.
Mr. RANKIN - Did you make any inquiry as to whether or not any of the police force were involved with Ruby in this shooting?
Mr. CURRY - We got reports and interrogated every officer who was there.
Mr. RANKIN - What did you find out?
Mr. CURRY - We didn't find any officer who knew he was down there or that had in any way assisted him in getting there. No one.
Mr. RANKIN - You are satisfied that none of them were involved in trying to have Oswald shot?
Mr. CURRY - Yes, sir; I certainly am.
Mr. RANKIN - Did you make inquiry to determine whether there was any evidence that anyone else was involved with Ruby in trying to shoot Oswald?
Mr. CURRY - We made every effort we could in our investigation. We were not able to determine any tieup between any other individual and Ruby or Oswald.
Mr. RANKIN - Did you make any inquiry to determine whether or not anyone else was involved with Oswald in the assassination of the President?
Mr. CURRY - We attempted to. Every lead we came upon we followed it out to see whether or not we could make any connection between Ruby, Oswald, or any other group.
Mr. RANKIN - Did you discover any evidence that would tend to show that Oswald had any support in the assassination?
Mr. CURRY - No; we did not.
Mr. RANKIN - Did you discover any evidence that would prove Ruby was involved with any other person in the killing of Oswald?
Mr. CURRY - We were not able to determine any connection.
Mr. DULLES - I will just ask one question, if I may, here.
It was Officer Vaughn, I understand, who had the direct responsibility for checking the credentials.
Mr. CURRY - Of that door, of that particular door.
Mr. DULLES - That door. Is there any evidence that Officer Vaughn knew of Ruby?
Mr. CURRY - I don't believe he did.
Mr. DULLES - Has that been looked into?
Mr. CURRY - He was asked that, and if I remember correctly in his deposition he didn't know him.
Mr. DULLES - He testified he didn't know him?
Mr. CURRY - I believe so, I am not confident of that, but they have had his deposition here, which I am sure would reveal that.
Mr. DULLES - Do you know----
 

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. MCCLOY - Do you know, chief, anybody on the staff, on your staff, on the police staff, that was particularly close to Ruby?
Mr. CURRY - No, sir; I do not.
Mr. MCCLOY - I would want to go back for a little while on one thing.
How did it happen the description was broadcast so quickly after the event? Can you explain the circumstances under which----
Mr. CURRY - I am merely giving an opinion here.
Mr. MCCLOY - Yes.
Mr. CURRY - I think the reason it was when they found out at the Texas School Book Depository that this employee when they were checking employees and they found out this employee was missing, that they presumed he must or could have had some connection between the shooting of the President and the fact that he was not present at this time.
Mr. MCCLOY - Can you describe the mechanics or the machinery by which this did get on to, this material on to the broadcast, that is----
Mr. BALL - Could I go off the record on it?
 

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. CURRY - No, sir; other than, I am sure that someone put it over a police radio to our dispatcher and he put it then, he broadcast it.
Mr. MCCLOY - That is someone on the scene would presumably communicate with headquarters?
Mr. CURRY - With the dispatcher. He would rebroadcast it to all units.
Mr. MCCLOY - And he would rebroadcast it to all the units?
Mr. CURRY - Yes.
Mr. DULLES - You have given us, I think, an estimate or approximate estimate of the number of officers you thought that knew-Ruby, and I believe it was about 25 out of the whole force.
Mr. CURRY - This is just--I mean this is not--I couldn't say this was a real accurate number, but I am just presuming from just talking to people in the department. I would say that certainly no more than 50 men knew anything about him at all.
Mr. DULLES - Have you made any effort to find out and run down these men that did know?
Mr. CURRY - Yes, sir.
Mr. DULLES - You have?
Mr. CURRY - Yes, sir.
Mr. DULLES - And how many have you actually discovered did know Ruby from that investigation?
Mr. CURRY - I don't have the exact number, but I am guessing it probably would be 25 or 30 men.
Mr. DULLES - Twenty-five men whom you have interrogated with regard to their association with Ruby?
Mr. CURRY - That knew him in some capacity. That knew him in some capacity.
Mr. DULLES - Mr. Rankin, do we have depositions on this point?
Mr. RANKIN - We have inquired of everyone deposed as to what he knew about Jack Ruby, what acquaintance, any prior connections.
Mr. DULLES - You mean all the police officers who were----
Mr. RANKIN - Who were interrogated, but, of course, we didn't cover any 1,200 men.
Mr. DULLES - Did you cover all those that were present that morning?
Mr. CURRY - I believe we asked anyone in the police department who knew Ruby to let us know about it. And then I think anyone that knew him, the names were turned over to these people here. We covered all that such an inquiry would reveal but we didn't purport to cover--well, we covered something like a hundred out of 1,200.
We requested by departmental order any police officer who knew Jack Ruby make it known to us, and then he was interrogated about it.
Mr. RANKIN - Of those interrogated that would probably include all of those present the day of the shooting of Oswald, the morning of the shooting of Oswald at the time of the transfer?
Mr. CURRY - I believe it would.
Mr. RANKIN - All that we knew were present at all, and beyond that, too, have been interrogated.
Mr. CURRY - Yes.
Mr. MCCLOY - When Officer 78, that is Tippit was directed to the Oak Cliff area that was simply because the Oak Cliff area was sort of a center of activity at that point?
Mr. CURRY - At that time.
Mr. MCCLOY - It wasn't--it wasn't because you were trying to or had any idea that the suspect might have been there?
Mr. CURRY - Not from the Presidential shooting, but we were sure that the suspect in the Officer Tippit shooting was in the central area.
Mr. MCCLOY - But Tippit was still alive on the first direction to him to go out there?
Mr. CURRY - That was because some of the squad had been moved out of the Oak Cliff into the Dallas area. You see, this is across the river.
Mr. MCCLOY - What is the Oak Cliff area?
Mr. RANKIN - I think that ought to be clarified. Chief Curry, wasn't your testimony that Tippit was in the Oak Cliff area of Dallas?
Mr. CURRY - Yes.
Mr. RANKIN - And then he was directed to move to the central Oak Cliff area?
Mr. CURRY - That is correct.
Mr. RANKIN - Move in closer, and so he was in it, his regular beat, as I understand it, was in the Oak Cliff area, isn't that right?
Mr. CURRY - Yes.
Mr. RANKIN - And is Oak Cliff a suburb or what is it?
Mr. CURRY - It is not exactly a suburb, but it is physically separated. It used to be a separate municipality and some years ago----
Mr. RANKIN - Where does it lie?
Mr. CURRY - It lies west of Dallas proper and across the Trinity River and the only means of going to Oak Cliff, going to and from Oak Cliff is by means of viaduct so there is a physical separation between Oak Cliff and Dallas, and some of the squads had been pulled out of the Oak Cliff area and to come over to the Elm and Houston area to assist in the investigation of this shooting, and it would be normal procedure as squads go out of an area for the squads further out to move in in the event something does happen in this area they would have a squad that wouldn't be so far removed from it.
Mr. DULLES - This direction had nothing to do with any suspicion that you might have had that the assassin might be going into this area?
Mr. CURRY - No, sir; none at all.
Mr. DULLES - It was purely a maneuver to cover an area which had been evacuated or been left uncovered because of the assassination and the reassignment of squads?
Mr. CURRY - The reassignment of squads, that is right.
Mr. MCCLOY - Because of the withdrawal of people of the Oak Cliff area into the Houston Street area?
Mr. CURRY - That is correct. So we pulled some of the squads further assigned to the area into the most central area to cover anything that might happen so they would be in position to go out or come in.
Mr. MCCLOY - That does clear it up.
Mr. RANKIN - Will you tell us on the record what was normal procedure that you just spoke about?
Mr. CURRY - Normal procedure would be when we have a great number of squads on assignment in an area, in their particular district, as squads go out of service, say they are checking out, to haul prisoners into the jails or they are on calls, it just is automatic they are instructed in school when they go to school if the adjoining squad goes out of service, doesn't stay, say he adjoins you on the east, don't go to the far west side of your district, go to the east side of your district where you could be on the west side of his district, so if something else occurs in his district you would be in a position to answer the call.
Ordinarily it is not necessary for us to, so that squads go to getting out of service, to go and rearrange squads.
In this particular instance, when he asked 81 and 78 if they were in central Oak Cliff they said yes, but they were moving there because this would be a normal thing to do, to move into an area where other squads had gone out of service.
Mr. RANKIN - You told us about your efforts to try to determine whether subversive groups or groups that might have an interest in making trouble for a trip of the President were going to try to do anything. Would you tell us what you did about that in more detail?

Mr. CURRY - I gave you a copy of this, and I would like to read it for the record, if you would like me to.
Mr. RANKIN - We will offer that.
Mr. CURRY - All right.
This is a copy of a report submitted to me by Lieutenant Jack Revill, criminal intelligence section of the special service bureau.
Mr. RANKIN - I will hand you Exhibit No. 710 and ask you if that isn't a copy of what you are referring to.
Mr. CURRY - Yes; it is
Mr. RANKIN - You won't have to read that, Chief, if you will just describe in a general way what was done that you know about and then I will offer that to show what it proves.
Mr. CURRY - In essence, this report says prior to the announcement of the President's visit, there were rumors he would visit Dallas and because of these rumors the intelligence section increased its efforts in attempting to get data concerning not only extremists and subversive groups.
Mr. RANKIN - How do they do that?
Mr. CURRY - They usually have an informant inside the organization. Sometimes it may be one of our own men.
Mr. RANKIN - I see.
That was with regard to the persons listed on that Exhibit 710?
Mr. CURRY - Yes.
Mr. RANKIN - Do you know of any other efforts besides that?
Mr. CURRY - No, sir; these are all that I know of except we did in one instance go to the cities outside of Dallas, towns outside of Dallas to talk to some people that had rumored that they would do something to embarrass the President. These organizations are listed as the Ku Klux Klan, the Indignant White Citizens Council, National States Rights Party, the John Birch Society, Dallas White Citizens Council, Oak Cliff White Citizens Council, General Walker group, American Opinion Forum, Dallas Committee for Full Citizenship, Young Peoples Socialist League, Dallas Civil Liberties Union, Texas White Citizens Council, and Black Muslims.
Mr. RANKIN - I will hand you Exhibit 709 which you have furnished us this morning, and ask you, can you tell us how you got that exhibit?
Mr. CURRY - This exhibit was a report that was submitted to me from Jack Revill, who is a lieutenant, in the criminal intelligence section.
Mr. RANKIN - That is the same man who is referred to in Exhibit 710?
Mr. CURRY - Yes, it is; their assignment is to keep track of these groups that we have talked about, possible subversive or extremist groups and try to know something about their plans, their movements.
Mr. RANKIN - How did you get that information described in Exhibit 709?
Mr. CURRY - It was given to me on November 22d at 2:50 p.m., or shortly thereafter, but I mean the information came to him at that time, and he passed it on to me, later that day.
Mr. RANKIN - Would you tell us how you secured Exhibit 711?
Mr. CURRY - This is a report from Officer V. J. Brian, B-r-i-a-n, who is a detective in the criminal intelligence section, and was present when Lieutenant Revill, when the information submitted was given to Lieutenant Revill.
Mr. RANKIN - I would like to offer Exhibits 709, 710, and 711.
Mr. DULLES - They will be admitted.
 

(The documents referred to were marked Commission. Exhibit Nos. 709, 710, and 711 for identification and received in evidence.)

Mr. RANKIN - Mr. Chairman, I think we should have a recess now until 2 o'clock.
Mr. MCCLOY - One more question.
Was there any talk that you heard around before the, after the apprehension of Oswald and his time set for his removal from police headquarters to the jail, was there any talk that you heard in the corridors or elsewhere about lynching or possible lynching?
Mr. CURRY - No, sir. The only information I had was that the FBI, someone from the FBI passed the information to the city hall during the night that they had had a call that said, I believe the FBI sent this call, that there was a group of 100 who would take that prisoner away from us before he got to the county jail.
Mr. MCCLOY - But this came from outside the jail?
Mr. CURRY - Yes; outside.
Mr. MCCLOY - You never heard any threats uttered within the jail?
Mr. CURRY - No.
Mr. DULLES - Another general question: Have you any comments or anything you would like to say about the cooperation between the Dallas police, the Secret Service, and the FBI during this period immediately following, prior to and immediately following the assassination?
Mr. CURRY - No, sir. We have always had the best of cooperation between both of these Federal units, and all other units of the Federal and State government. I feel sure that they thought this information was important to us, they probably would have given it to us. But we certainly have not had any trouble with the FBI or with the Secret Service in any of our past associations.
Mr. DULLES - I was going a little further. I mean, was the cooperation whole-hearted and open and frank as far as you could tell?
Mr. CURRY - Yes, sir; as far as I could tell, it was.
Mr. DULLES - Was there any problem created because of the possible not conflict of authority, but question as to who had responsibility of particular areas here as between you as chief of police and the Secret Service and the FBI?
Mr. CURRY - Prior to the President's visit, no; there was nothing there.
Mr. DULLES - Prior to or subsequent to?
Mr. CURRY - Now, subsequent to that, we felt this, that this was a murder that had been committed in the county, city and county of Dallas, and that we had prior, I mean we had jurisdiction over this. The FBI actually had no jurisdiction over it, the Secret Service actually had no jurisdiction over it. But in an effort to cooperate with these agencies we went all out to do whatever they wanted us to do that we could do to let them observe what was taking place, but actually we knew that this was a case that happened in Dallas, Tex., and would have to be tried in Dallas, Tex., and it was our responsibility to gather the evidence and present the evidence.
We kept getting calls from the FBI. They wanted this evidence up in Washington, in the laboratory, and there was some discussion, Fritz told me, he says, "Well, I need the evidence here, I need to get some people to try to identify the gun, to try to identify this pistol and these things, and if it is in Washington how can I do it?"
But we finally, the night, about midnight of Friday night, we agreed to let the FBI have all the evidence and they said they would bring it to their laboratory and they would have an agent stand by and when they were finished with it to return it to us.

Mr. DULLES - An agent of the police force, you mean?
Mr. CURRY - An agent of the FBI.
Mr. DULLES - FBI?
Mr. CURRY - Yes.
Mr. DULLES - There was no agent of the Dallas police that went to Washington with the evidence?
Mr. CURRY - Not to my knowledge.
Mr. RANKIN - Did that work out all right so far?
Mr. CURRY - Well, not exactly, because they were to give us pictures of everything that was brought to Washington, and Fritz tells me that some of these little items that it was very poor reproduction of some of the items on microfilm.
Subsequently they photographed these things in Washington and sent us copies, some 400, I think, 400 copies of different items. So far as I know, we have never received any of that evidence back. It is still in Washington, I guess.
Perhaps the Commission has it.
Mr. RANKIN - Yes; the Commission is still working with it.
Mr. CURRY - Yes.
Mr. RANKIN - But apparently the FBI tried to carry out their agreement with you, didn't they?
Mr. CURRY - Yes; they did.
Mr. RANKIN - And it is a question of whether or not their reproductions were as good as you would like to have?
Mr. CURRY - There were made, some of them, in the office down in Dallas, they were in a tremendous hurry to get all of these items to the laboratory here in Washington, and our only concern was this, that if this ease is tried in Dallas, we need the evidence to be presented here in a court in Dallas and we were a little bit apprehensive about it if it gets to Washington will it be available to us when we need it. If we need somebody to identify, attempt to identify the gun or other items will it be here for them to see? And that was our only concern.
We got several calls insisting we send this, and nobody would tell me exactly who it was that was insisting, "just say I got a call from Washington, and they wanted this evidence up there," insinuated it was someone in high authority that was requesting this, and we finally agreed as a matter of trying to cooperate with them, actually.
Mr. DULLES - Have you any more questions?
Mr. MCCLOY - Not at this stage.
Mr. RANKIN - Shall we convene at 2?
Mr. DULLES - Mr. Murray, do you have any? Mr. MURRAY - No, thank you.
 

(Whereupon, at 12:45 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)
 

Mr. MCCLOY - (presiding). We are ready.
Mr. RANKIN - Chief Curry, I was asking you just as we closed your examination before lunch about Exhibits 709, 711 particularly, and you will recall those are the documents concerning the conversation between Agent Hosty of the FBI and Jack Revill who is your lieutenant of criminal intelligence section, is that right?
Mr. CURRY - It was reported to me, I was given a report to that effect.
Mr. RANKIN - Do you know anything about the matters described in those letters?
Mr. CURRY - Yes.
Mr. RANKIN - Will you tell us what you know about them? Do you want to see them?f
Mr. CURRY - Yes. One of the documents tells me that Lieutenant Revill states that about 2:50 p.m. on the 22d----
Mr. RANKIN - Of what?
Mr. CURRY - November 1963, that he met Special Agent Jim Hosty of the FBI in the basement of the city hall, and at that time Agent Hosty related to Revill that the subject, Oswald, was a member of the Communist Party, and that he was residing in Dallas.
Mr. RANKIN - Did you make any further inquiry after you got that information?
Mr. CURRY - None other than I had a report from V. J. Brian, a detective in criminal intelligence, who was present at the time this conversation took place.
Mr. RANKIN - That later report was as of April 20?
Mr. CURRY - Yes.
Mr. RANKIN - 1964?
Mr. CURRY - The last report.
Mr. RANKIN - What was the occasion for that?
Mr. CURRY - I just asked Revill if anyone was with him at the time, and he recalled that Detective Brian was at the time.
Mr. RANKIN - Otherwise, did you know anything more about that matter?
Mr. CURRY - No, sir; I believe Captain Fritz said that he, he told me he knew they had been out to talk to Mrs. Paine.
Mr. RANKIN - By they, who do you mean?
Mr. CURRY - Some of the FBI agents, and that he did know that Oswald apparently knew Hosty, because Hosty was present in the interrogation room.
Mr. RANKIN - By he there at that point who do you mean?
Mr. CURRY - Oswald.
Mr. RANKIN - Yes; but you say he knew.
Mr. CURRY - That Oswald knew Hosty.
Mr. RANKIN - Yes.
Mr. CURRY - Because according to Fritz he said that he was quite bitter, Oswald was quite bitter toward Hosty because he had made the statement that "you mistreated my wife."
Mr. RANKIN - Do you know how Captain Fritz learned that?
Mr. CURRY - He was in Captain Fritz's office when this statement was made, according to Captain Fritz.
Mr. RANKIN - Now, after the assassination, did you give any orders of your staff, making any reports about anything they knew about either the assassination or the Tippit killing?
Mr. CURRY - Yes, sir; we had all of our officers who knew anything at all about it to submit reports which is a normal procedure in any unusual incident.
Mr. RANKIN - How did you direct that that be done?
Mr. CURRY - Just through my staff.
Mr. RANKIN - Was that in writing?
Mr. CURRY - No, sir.
Mr. RANKIN - You just told them?
Mr. CURRY - Yes, sir.
Mr. RANKIN - And was that direction promptly given?
Mr. CURRY - I am sure it was passed on immediately. All orders are.
Mr. RANKIN - How soon after the assassination?
Mr. CURRY - I would say probably within the next day after we met and we decided that an investigation should be conducted into all phases of this.
Mr. RANKIN - Did you give any directions about furnishing information immediately about what anyone knew about the killing of Oswald?
Mr. CURRY - No specific directions. After Oswald was killed, I called and I talked with Deputy Chief Stevenson of the criminal investigation division the next morning of the next day, I believe this was Monday, and we decided we should appoint an investigative group.
Mr. RANKIN - Who was that?
Mr. CURRY - That was Inspector Sawyer, headed by Inspector Sawyer.
Mr. RANKIN - Who else?
Mr. CURRY - And Captain O. A. Jones, and then I think they had some lieutenants assigned to it and some detectives. Their assignment was to find out every person who was present in or around the city hall at the time that Lee Oswald was killed, and to get a report from them.
I know Lieutenant Revill was also in on this, and then they would also, in addition to getting a report, they would personally interrogate each one of them to see whether or not any information they had knowledge of might be left out of the reports.
And you have a copy of all of these reports, both the reports the officers made, the additional interrogation made by members of this investigating group.
Mr. RANKIN - Do you know whether they inquired as to the knowledge of any of these people about conversations with Ruby immediately after the shooting of Oswald?
Mr. CURRY - I believe they have some reports to that effect.
Mr. RANKIN - Was that a part of their responsibility to get those reports?
Mr. CURRY - Yes; anything that they had, that they could get regarding this.
Mr. RANKIN - And you would expect the police officers to tell anything they knew at once?
Mr. CURRY - Yes, sir.
Mr. RANKIN - So far as you know has all of that information been supplied to the Commission?
Mr. CURRY - So far as I know.
Mr. RANKIN - It has?
Mr. CURRY - So far as I know it has been supplied.
Mr. RANKIN - Did you learn about the claims of some police officers that Ruby had said something about the killing to them shortly after killing Oswald?
Mr. CURRY - Yes.
Mr. RANKIN - When did you first learn that?
Mr. CURRY - I don't recall exactly, the exact date that I learned of this. But I think the first time it came to my knowledge was that Agent Sorrels of the Secret Service, sometime after this told me, he said, "Now Chief, I don't know that they could--that I could testify to this," but he said, "immediately after Oswald was shot, I went to his cell"----
Mr. RANKIN - Whose cell?
Mr. CURRY - To Oswald's--I mean to Ruby's cell, "and I went in and talked to him, told him who I was, and"----
Mr. RANKIN - Was anyone else present?
Mr. CURRY - There was a patrolman and a guard, I think, and perhaps a detective.
Mr. RANKIN - Who were they?
Mr. CURRY - I believe Dean was present, Sergeant Dean, I don't know who these officers were but it is revealed in these reports that have been made.
Mr. RANKIN - Yes.
Mr. CURRY - Sorrels told me, he said, "I asked Ruby why he did it and he said somebody had to kill the son-of-a-bitch and the police department couldn't do it."
I believe he also said, "I couldn't think, stand the thought of having Jacqueline Kennedy having to return to Dallas and go through a trial for him." I told him this was not for the Secret Service or not for publication, I just asked him the question but he said, "I did not warn him against himself, about his constitutional rights, so I don't know that I would be allowed to testify to this."
Mr. RANKIN - When did Sorrels first tell you that?
Mr. CURRY - This was the--it seems to me like several days after this occurred.
Mr. RANKIN - Did you report that to anyone?
Mr. CURRY - I believe I told Chief Stevenson about it or whoever was---or perhaps Captain or Inspector Sawyer or some of them. This information was relayed on to the investigating group.
Mr. RANKIN - Do you know whether they recorded it any place?
Mr. CURRY - No; we called the officers, when I say we, the investigating team did talk with the officers and they recall hearing this testimony.
Mr. RANKIN - Do you know when they first gave you any information that they knew of any such conversation?
Mr. CURRY - I don't recall that; no, sir.
Mr. RANKIN - Do you recall that the officers ever said to you or placed in writing in any memorandum or communication to you that they heard Ruby say anything beyond what you have described Mr. Sorrels to say?
Mr. CURRY - No, sir.
Mr. RANKIN - If your records show that the first time any such information was communicated to you, was around February 18, 1964, would you think that was a correct record?
Mr. CURRY - Perhaps it is. When Sorrels, if that is when he says it is when it was, perhaps that is when it was. But this was prior to Ruby's trial that I know that he came forward with this information and he said, "It is possible they can use this testimony in the trial of Ruby", but he didn't feel like that he could testify to it because he had not warned him of his constitutional rights.
But that these officers were present, and if they overheard it, then he said, "You ought to at least talk to Henry Wade about it and he might be able to get that in his testimony on that basis."
Mr. RANKIN - You think that Dean was one of the officers involved who overheard it?
Mr. CURRY - I believe he was.
Mr. RANKIN - And who else?
Mr. CURRY - I don't recall now. It is in our reports.
Mr. RANKIN - Was the officer Archer?
Mr. CURRY - I believe Officer Archer was there.
Mr. RANKIN - Was it Officer Newcomb?
Mr. CURRY - I believe so.
Mr. RANKIN - Do you believe whether they testified to something like that at the trial?
Mr. CURRY - I was not present during the trial but I understand they did testify.
Mr. RANKIN - Do you know whether or not those officers made a report about what they knew about the killing of Oswald prior to February 18?
Mr. CURRY - I don't believe they did.
Mr. RANKIN - You don't think they made any report to you or to the FBI or anybody else?
Mr. CURRY - Not to my knowledge.
Mr. RANKIN - So if they did not include such information in any report or statement prior to February 18, 1964, you don't know it?
Mr. CURRY - That is correct, I do not know it.
Mr. MCCLOY - May I ask, when was, has there been testimony as to when Agent Sorrels told the chief that he had heard this?
Mr. RANKIN - I don't recall the date.
Mr. CURRY - But it was--I don't recall the date but it was sometime after the shooting of Oswald.
Mr. RANKIN - Was it 1 day or 2 days?
Mr. CURRY - It was several days but it was prior to the trial of Jack Ruby.
Mr. RANKIN - Was it a week later?
Mr. CURRY - I would say perhaps it was more than a week later, it was several weeks, I would say, but prior to the trial, Sorrels talked to me and he said that this may be important in a trial of the case.
"Some of the things that Ruby told me immediately following the shooting of Oswald," and he said, "I don't think I can testify to it, but you might talk to Mr. Wade and he might be able to get the testimony entered because these officers were not talking they just overheard the conversation."
Mr. MCCLOY - This was a substantial period after the date?
Mr. CURRY - The assassination.
Mr. MCCLOY - The date of the assassination?
Mr. CURRY - Yes, sir.
Mr. MCCLOY - And the date that Sorrels was alleged to have heard this from Ruby?
Mr. CURRY - Yes, sir.
Mr. RANKIN - Was it before or after Christmas?
Mr. CURRY - I believe it was after Christmas. I just couldn't be sure because I was not----
Mr. RANKIN - Where did the conversation occur?
Mr. CURRY - On the telephone.
Mr. RANKIN - Was anybody present?
Mr. CURRY - No, sir.
Mr. RANKIN - Did you make a written record of the information?
Mr. CURRY - No, sir; I just told Chief Stevenson, who is in charge of criminal investigation, to attempt to determine who was present at that time; that Oswald was--I mean that Ruby was talking to Sorrels, and to see what they heard at that time, which ,they did, and the officers then made a report.
Mr. RANKIN - Did you tell Chief Stevenson at that time what Sorrels had told you?
Mr. CURRY - Yes, sir.
Mr. RANKIN - Do you know whether he made any record of it?
Mr. CURRY - I doubt that he did.
Mr. RANKIN - You haven't tried to find out?
Mr. CURRY - No, sir; I haven't.
Mr. RANKIN - Do you have any practice in the police force about recording statements by the accused in first-degree murder cases?
Mr. CURRY - No, sir.
Mr. RANKIN - Now changing to another subject, do you recall--you said that you had made some comments upon the evidence in regard to Oswald and to the media--do you recall what you said about that?
Mr. CURRY - I believe I told them it had been reported that we had an FBI report that they had been able to trace that weapon where he had ordered it from Chicago, and it had been picked up under the name of Hidell and that the handwriting was the same on the order blank as Oswald's.
Mr. RANKIN - Was this told to a news conference or over the TV?
Mr. CURRY - Well, the TV was there. It was not a news conference. I was walking down the hall, and they surrounded me.
Mr. RANKIN - Did you tell them anything else about the evidence you had against Oswald?
Mr. CURRY - I only told them I believed that we had some other evidence, but I didn't tell them what it was.
Mr. RANKIN - Did you ever tell them any more about the evidence that you had- against Oswald?
Mr. CURRY - I don't believe so; I don't recall it.
Mr. RANKIN - Did you ever tell them about the evidence you had against Oswald concerning the Tippit shooting?
Mr. CURRY - No, sir; I don't believe I made any comment.
Mr. RANKIN - Do you know about when this was made, these statements were made about the evidence?
Mr. CURRY - I believe this was on Friday, the 22d, during the late evening.
Mr. RANKIN - Is it a common practice for you or someone for the police department to tell about the evidence that you had?
Mr. CURRY - It wouldn't be an uncommon practice. There is no law against it.
Mr. RANKIN - Did you often do it then?
Mr. CURRY - Well, I would say this was not really unusual. It might be---this was an exceptional case; ordinarily I am not involved in these investigations or in making statements, but this would not be an unusual thing to say.
Mr. RANKIN - Someone from the police department often does it; is that right?
Mr. CURRY - Well, frequently, if they are asked about it.
Mr. RANKIN - Do you know whether it is possible to monitor conversations between the prisoner and the visitor on the intercom?
Mr. CURRY - Not by intercom. It would be---they are brought into---when a prisoner is brought in to visit with an attorney or a relative he is placed on one side of a wall and the prisoner--I mean the visitor---on the other side, but we don't have any means of recording this. They talk through by telephone. There is a glass that separates them.
Mr. RANKIN - Did you monitor any conversations between Lee Oswald and his brother Robert, or Lee Oswald and Marina at any time?
Mr. CURRY - I did not, and I don't know of any. We don't have any way of doing it. I mean we have no setup for doing this.
Mr. RANKIN - You don't know of any that was done?
Mr. CURRY - No, sir; I do not.
Mr. RANKIN - In regard to arrangements, do you know the Texas law as to how soon after an arrest an arraignment is required?
Mr. CURRY - Excuse me now; I am not an attorney.
Mr. RANKIN - Yes.
Mr. CURRY - It is my understanding that, so far in Texas, being brought immediately before a magistrate would be during the normal course of that court's business.
Mr. RANKIN - Your law----
Mr. CURRY - When they are in session.
Mr. RANKIN - Your law says he shall be brought immediately.
Mr. CURRY - Immediately, but it has been----
Mr. RANKIN - But in interpretation you ordinarily follow a practice of----
Mr. CURRY - During the normal course of the court's business. This was actually unusual because this type of arraignment---because usually it would have been later than this, but we were trying to take whatever precautions we could to see that he was given his--we were not violating his civil rights. That is the reason that we did arraign him in the city hall. Ordinarily we would have taken him before a court.
Mr. RANKIN - I didn't understand you to say that the justice of the peace told him he had a right to counsel or said anything about that.
Mr. CURRY - I don't recall whether he did or whether he did not. He read all this to him.
Mr. RANKIN - That is, he read the complaint to him?
Mr. CURRY - The complaint, and I don't recall what all he said to him.
Mr. RANKIN - So, according to the practice in Texas at the time that he was taken for arraignment would have been the usual practice or a little earlier?
Mr. CURRY - A little earlier, actually.
Mr. MCCLOY - Were you present at any investigation or interrogation of Ruby?
Mr. CURRY - No, sir; I was not.
Mr. MCCLOY - Did you hear any further elaboration of this charge that Oswald made that Hosty had mistreated his wife; what was the nature of the rain-treatment?
Mr. CURRY - I was not present when this happened. This was told to me, I think Captain Fritz told me this, and he seemed to gather that he had more or less sort of browbeat her in interrogating her is what Fritz, the impression that Fritz got.
Mr. MCCLOY - When was that? Do you have any reason to know---Captain Fritz will perhaps tell us about it--as to when that interrogation of Hosty and Mrs. Oswald took place?
Mr. CURRY - No, sir.
Mr. MCCLOY - You don't take normally any tape recordings of witnesses' examinations?
Mr. CURRY - No, sir.
Mr. MCCLOY - I guess that is all, except the general question I have of Chief Curry. Do you know anything else with respect to this whole matter that you think would be of any help to this Commission in getting at the facts?
Mr. CURRY - Not that I know of, except to say we were extremely sorry that, of course, this thing happened in Dallas. We thought we were taking every normal precaution that we could take to insure the safety of the President in cooperating with the Secret Service and all other agencies and we felt like we had done a good job.
After the assassination and the murder of our officer, that our officers had done a good job in making a quick apprehension of the alleged person guilty of this, and that we will have to admit that although we thought that adequate precautions had been taken for the transfer of this prisoner, that one of our officers momentarily stepped away from his post of duty, and that during this moment of negligence on his part, as far as we could determine Ruby went down the ramp, the Main Street ramp, and concealed himself behind some news media and detectives and as Oswald was brought out he stepped forward and shot him.
And if we had it to do over again, and I think this, that some policy should be set up for the news media, whereby if anything of this magnitude ever occurs again, that we would not be plagued by the confusion present that was present at that time, and that the news media should accept some of the responsibility for these things and agree among themselves to have representatives that can report back to them.
Mr. RANKIN - Chief Curry, I am not quite clear about the situation with regard to your practices in the police force, and the news media. I understand what happened, as you described it at the time of the episodes that we have been going into, and I understand that you would, if there was a matter of this magnitude again--you would expect and want a very different change?
Mr. CURRY - Yes.
Mr. RANKIN - And eliminate the interference by the news media?
Mr. CURRY - That is right.
Mr. RANKIN - But what do you do now about the ordinary case? Have you changed your practices about the media at all?
Mr. CURRY - Not the ordinary cases; no.
Mr. RANKIN - And do they use the radio and TV in the police headquarters?
Mr. CURRY - Yes, sir; they do.
Mr. RANKIN - And they, the reporters, come in, and it is just the difference between a great many?
Mr. CURRY - And a few is what made the difference in this.
Mr. MCCLOY - Do you permit reporters now to come in and interrogate prisoners as they did in this case by holding a microphone up to their mouth and saying, "How did you do it?"
Mr. CURRY - They do the same as they do here; on the way from the interrogation room to the jail elevator as they pass by they might run along and ask him questions and try to get him to answer.
Mr. RANKIN - That could be done today just the same?
Mr. CURRY - Yes, sir. Because we have no way of keeping them out of the public halls.
Mr. RANKIN - Don't you have jurisdiction as chief of police to exclude them if you thought it was the wise thing to do?
Mr. CURRY - Yes. Now if I had it to do over again, of come, I would exclude it.
Mr. RANKIN - And you could do it today in the ordinary case if you wanted to?
Mr. CURRY - I would probably have my hide taken off by the news media, but I could do it.
Mr. RANKIN - So, it is really a problem of weighing what the media will do to you against other considerations?
Mr. CURRY - And this, too; it seemed like there was a great demand by the general public to know what was going on.
Mr. RANKIN - Yes. And that is what you were trying to satisfy?
Mr. CURRY - That is what I was trying to do.
Mr. RANKIN - Those are all the questions.
Mr. MCCLOY - I don't think I have anything else.
Mr. RANKIN - Thank you very much, Chief, for all of your help.
Mr. CURRY - Thank you for your consideration.
Mr. RANKIN - I want to offer the Exhibits 701 through 708, both inclusive.
Mr. MCCLOY - They may be admitted.