The testimony of Mrs. Jesse Garner was taken on April 6, 1964, at the Old Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans, La., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mrs. Jesse Garner, 4911 Magazine Street, New Orleans, La., after being sworn by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, examiner, testified as follows:
Mr. LIEBELER. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member of the legal staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy. Staff members have been authorized to take testimony from witnesses by the Commission pursuant to authority granted to the Commission by Executive Order No. 11130 dated November 29, 1963, and joint resolution of Congress No 137.
I understand, Mrs. Garner, that Mr. Rankin wrote to you and your husband last week advising you I would contact you concerning the taking of your testimony.
Mrs. GARNER. Yes; he did.
Mr. LIEBELER. And that he enclosed with the letter a copy of the Executive order and of the joint resolution to which I have referred, as well as a copy of the rules of procedure adopted by-the Commission relating to the taking of testimony of witnesses. Is that not correct?
Mrs. GARNER. That's right
Mr. LIEBELER. We wish to inquire of you today, Mrs. Garner, concerning your knowledge of Lee Harvey Oswald which you may have gained as a result of your being the manager or one of the managers of the apartment building in which Oswald lived while he was in New Orleans from approximately May through September 1963. Before we get into the details of that, however, would you state your full name for the record?
Mrs. GARNER. Mrs. Jesse Garner.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you live?
Mrs. GARNER. 4911 Magazine.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where were you born?
Mrs. GARNER. Vacherie, La.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you lived all of your life in Louisiana?
Mrs. GARNER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us when you were born?
Mrs. GARNER. March 16, 1919.
Mr. LIEBELER. Am I correct in understanding that you and your husband are the managers of the premises known as 4905-11 Magazine Street here in New Orleans?
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Mrs. GARNER. Yes; we are.
Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you been the managers of those premises?
Mrs. GARNER. Four years.
Mr. LIEBELER. Will you describe briefly for us the nature of the premises?
Mrs GARNER. The house, do you mean?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.
Mrs. GARNER. Well, it is a double house. I live in one side, and the other side has two apartments, and I have two apartments in the back, unattached to the house, upstairs and downstairs.
Mr. LIEBELER. Am I correct in understanding that the half of the house in which you and your husband live is known as 4911 Magazine Street?
Mrs. GARNER. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. And the front apartment, which I understand is one-half of the rest of the house----
Mrs. GARNER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. That is 4907 Magazine Street?
Mrs. GARNER. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. In the rear of the other side of the house is a separate apartment numbered 4905 Magazine Street?
Mrs. GARNER. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did there come a. time in the spring of 1963 when you made the acquaintance of Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mrs. GARNER. When I talked to them, or what?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.
Mrs. GARNER. Or when I rented him the place?
Mr. LIEBELER. How did you first come in contact with him, and what was your conversation with him, and what was the result of the conversation you had?
Mrs. GARNER. The only thing was when he come to rent the apartment, there was another lady that brought him but they were in the car, but I didn't notice the car. I didn't pay attention, and when she came to the door to ring the bell, she told me he was looking for an apartment and his mother and her was good friends, and she knew him from a baby. Little Lee she called him, and that she had two places, I don't remember exactly where she said--I think somewhere on Prythania, and he went there first and they never had nothing empty, and she took him riding and they saw my sign and stopped. I showed him the apartment, and she took him through it, and she said it was very nice. She looked at the screen porch and said it would be very nice for the baby. We stood on the screen porch, and he asked me did I have any table lamps, they didn't have any and his wife was going to come later, and we stood on the porch talking and she was telling me how long she knew him, since he was a little boy, and she was friends with his mother and he had gotten married overseas, and she hadn't met his wife and hadn't seen him for a long time, and that is when he took a picture out of his wallet and showed a picture of his wife and baby. Not the baby, I don't think he had a picture of the baby. Maybe he did, I don't remember. Well, I told him, I said, well, that is nice, overseas girls make nice wives at times, because I had one living upstairs not too long before that, and I said they were real nice. He said, "Yes, one thing, they don't give you no lip." I will never forget that. That is one thing he said, and that's all I can really remember he said, and he paid me the month's rent.
Mr. LIEBELER. How much was that?
Mrs. GARNER. $65.
Mr. LIEBELER. How did he pay that to you? Was it in cash?
Mrs. GARNER. Cash; and he said that his wife would be coming in that Sunday, the weekend you know. I think it was, it must have been on the ninth. I don't remember exactly when the ninth was. What day was it?
Mr. LIEBELER. The 9th of May, according to the calendar with which the reporter has graciously supplied us, was a Thursday.
Mrs. GARNER. Thursday. That weekend, that is when she came in.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember the name of this woman that was with Oswald?
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Mrs. GARNER. No; she never said her name and I didn't ask her, but I know she was a middle-aged woman in about her middle fifties or late fifties, well kept, reddish looking hair with a ball in the back, and she wore glasses; a well kept woman.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did they say specifically they had stopped at your place because they had seen the sign advertising the apartment for rent?
Mrs. GARNER. Yes; the sign, yes. She took him riding and seen the sign out.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember any other conversation with either Oswald or this lady that first time you met Oswald?
Mrs. GARNER. No; that is about all, because then they left.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald move back to the apartment, or move into the apartment, before his wife came or did they come together and move in together?
Mrs. GARNER. No; he was in there a couple of days before she came.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember exactly when he moved in? Did he come back later on the 9th, or did he come on the 10th?
Mrs. GARNER. The next day, the next evening.
Mr. LIEBELER. The next day. He moved in the next evening?
Mrs. GARNER. The next evening.
Mr. LIEBELER. That would have been Friday the 10th?
Mrs. GARNER. I don't know if he stayed there, but he was there.
Mr. LIEBELER. He did move some of his belongings in; is that correct?
Mrs. GARNER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you notice anything about his belongings, what kind of stuff he had?
Mrs. GARNER. I didn't see that. I didn't see anything of that.
Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't see any suitcases he might have had?
Mrs. GARNER. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember when his wife came?
Mrs. GARNER. That weekend; on that Sunday. That was a Sunday.
Mr. LIEBELER. How did she arrive?
Mrs. GARNER. In this station wagon, that lady from Texas, that it had a Texas license, blue and tan station wagon or blue and white, something like that, and she also stayed a few days then when she brought the wife in, she stayed at least a week.
Mr. LIEBELER. This was a woman from Texas?
Mrs. GARNER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Whom you later learned was named Mrs. Paine? Is that correct?
Mrs. GARNER. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did you notice how many people there were in the station wagon when it arrived?
Mrs. GARNER. No; I really didn't.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you notice how many----
Mrs. GARNER. In fact, I didn't see the station wagon when it arrived; I didn't see it until the next day. I saw it parked out there with the Texas license and figured, you know, she had come in, his wife, because that is where he told me she was coming from, Texas.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you later learn how many people were in the apartment, or came in the station wagon?
Mrs. GARNER. Yes; when my husband talked to Mrs. Paine outside, he told me she had two little girls.
Mr. LIEBELER. And did Oswald himself have a little girl?
Mrs. GARNER. A little girl, June.
Mr. LIEBELER. And Oswald's wife?
Mrs. GARNER. Yes. I didn't know she was in a family way. I didn't know she was going to have another baby when she rented the apartment, because when I first saw her she didn't look that way to me.
Mr. LIEBELER. You say Mrs. Paine stayed in the apartment about a week. Did you have any conversation with her during that time?
Mrs. GARNER. No; I never even saw the lady. I never saw her. I couldn't tell you what she looked like. My husband saw her.
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Mr. LIEBELER You say your husband had talked to her. Did he tell you what she had said?
Mrs. GARNER. No; I never asked him and he never said nothing.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever have any direct contact with either Oswald or his wife after they moved into the apartment?
Mrs. GARNER. Well, the first thing, they was there a couple of weeks and I have a window fan in the kitchen, and I take the screen down to hose it and clean it, and I didn't put the screen back up. I just set it on the screen porch, and a couple of weeks later he come to me and asked me if I had a ladder and hammer, he was going to put the screen up.
Mr. LIEBELER. This was the screen that belonged on the window.
Mrs. GARNER. The screen belonged on the outside of the kitchen. I have a window fan and it gets dirty, and I take it off and hose it and clean it, but I didn't put it back. I left it on the porch, and he wanted to put it back.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was this a window fan in Oswald's kitchen?
Mrs. GARNER. It was in Oswald's kitchen, and he wanted to put the screen up and asked me was it all right to put the screen up, and asked me would I loan him a ladder and a hammer. The hooks belonged to the screen to hook the screen, they was off, but I loaned him two nails and told him to tack the screen on so far, so I could take the nails off, and that would be it, so his wife come outside in the meantime with the baby, and they was talking Russian and I couldn't understand what they were saying.
Mr. LIEBELER Did you know it was the Russian language then?
Mrs. GARNER. No; I don't know. I just put two and two together when they come out with that Russian, but I knew she was Russian. He told me she was Russian when they come to rent the apartment. I don't know what made me say it, but I told him, I called him Lee, I said, "Lee, why don't you talk English to your little girl and your wife? That way she could learn to talk English, and when the little girl goes to school it wouldn't be as hard on her."
He said, "She has time enough to learn that," and he never had a nice word to say to me after that. I think that must have made him hate me or something like that, because he just passed me up all the time too, and never turned his head to look.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he get the screen back up?
Mrs. GARNER. Yes; he tacked it back up, and I got my ladder and hammer back, and he never even said thank you or nothing.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you any specific reason why he didn't speak English to his wife and girl?
Mrs. GARNER. No; that's all he said, they had plenty time enough for that, something like that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever try to talk to Marina Oswald?
Mrs. GARNER. Yes; I did when she would be outside hanging clothes. I tried to talk to her and to the baby, I talked to both, and she would put her hands over her eyes and start crying. I asked her how she felt, and she would just do like this with her shoulders.
Mr. LIEBELER. She shrugged her shoulders?
Mrs. GARNER. Yes; and when she would see you she would not try to say hello, and she always wore little pedal pushers around the house with a little shirt, and her hair was straight pulled back and pinned down.
Mr. LIEBELER. This was Marina?
Mrs. GARNER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did she have long hair?
Mrs. GARNER. Yes; long enough, about here.
Mr. LIEBELER. Down to her shoulders?
Mrs. GARNER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any other contact with Oswald yourself, personally?
Mrs. GARNER. Yes. One time I went for my rent, it was a few days past due, the rent, and I mean, you know; when you let them go they wait too long and they don't ever get it. It was a few days later, I was going around the drive to see about my rent and he was starting out the drive to catch a bus on the corner, and when he saw me he turned around and looked, figured I
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was coming after the rent. I said, "Oswald, you got the rent? The landlady is coming for the rent." He said, "Yes, I have it."
He was fixing to go to the bus, so he turned around to walk up the drive to go get the money, and I said, "Go on where you have to go; I will get it later," and he just pushed me aside and went by me and went and got the money and handed it to me.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he actually push you aside physically?
Mrs. GARNER. Yes, just like that, and I called to him and I said, "Never mind; go where you have to go and I will get it later," and he just took me like this and pushed me aside and just went, you know, just went by me like that.
Mr. LIEBELER. He actually laid his hands on you?
Mrs. GARNER. Put his hands on me just like that, and pushed me.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he say anything?
Mrs. GARNER. He didn't say a thing. He come back and gave me the money and that was it.
Mr. LIEBELER. When was the next time you had any----
Mrs. GARNER. Well, I didn't talk to him any more than that, because I noticed how he was, wouldn't answer you when you say good morning or good evening, hello or good morning, so I just never bothered. The only thing, at night he used to come past behind the house and always wore trunks, yellow trunks with thongs, no top shirt and he used to stuff all my garbage cans and all the garbage cans on the street, and never would talk to anybody, pass right by the door of the apartment of the other people and never did talk to anybody.
Mr. LIEBELER. You never had any conversation with him after this time when you asked him about the rent?
Mrs. GARNER. No, that's about it. The most I talked to him was when he rented the apartment, that is the day he took it, and that lady done most of the talking. In fact, she had given me her phone number to let me call and let her know how Oswald was doing, and the wife when the wife would come in. I figured what in the world I want that for and I just threw it away and didn't bother with it. I didn't think anything like this was going to come up.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever have any visitors to his apartment, do you know?
Mrs. GARNER. Yes. As I said, I never did see anybody else around there myself except this middle-aged man and middle-aged woman like I said that come and picked him up one weekend on a Saturday and come back that Sunday after, because I happened to be sitting on the box and saw them come up.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would this have been in July?
Mrs. GARNER. About in July, I imagine. I know there was a lot of mosquitoes around that time; I think it was July sometime. I am really not sure. It was hot.
Mr. LIEBELER. How many times did these people come to see Oswald?
Mrs. GARNER. That is twice I seen, once I seen both of them come in the evening one night, and they didn't stay very long, but I was sitting outside. And that weekend, it was just him come to pick him up.
Mr. LIEBELER. You saw the man come to pick up Oswald on two different occasions? Is that right?
Mrs. GARNER. One occasion they came.
Mr. LIEBELER. The man was with a woman on one occasion?
Mrs. GARNER. At night one time, and then when he come to pick him up for the weekend he was by himself.
Mr. LIEBELER. Altogether, he was there twice?
Mrs. GARNER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Once by himself?
Mrs. GARNER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And once with a woman; is that right?
Mrs. GARNER. Yes. If they was there before that, I didn't see them.
Mr. LIEBELER. You only saw him come twice?
Mr. LIEBELER. Approximately how old was this man?
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Mrs. GARNER. I don't know. Like I say, I am not too good at judging ages. I would say in his late fifties or early sixties, something like that. He had a high forehead, a high peak right here, and kind of greyish.
Mr. LIEBELER. Could you describe him for us, please? Was he a white man?
Mrs. GARNER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he appear to be Spanish or Cuban extraction to you?
Mrs. GARNER. No, no, no.
Mr. LIEBELER. He was fair complected?
Mrs. GARNER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Are those the only two people you ever saw visit Oswald?
Mrs. GARNER. Well, there was that Cuban or Spanish looking guy one time rang my bell in the late afternoon, kind of short, very dark black curly hair, and he had a stack of these same pamphlets in his hand he was spreading out on Canal Street there on the porch, and he had a stack of them in his hand and he asked me about Oswald, and I said he was living around on that side where the screen porch is, and I saw those things in his hand and I said, "You are not going to spread those things on my porch," and that was all, and I closed the door and went on about my business. I don't know, but I guess he went over there.
Mr. LIEBELER. How many pamphlets did this man have in his hand?
Mrs. GARNER. I don't know. You know how thin those things are, and he had a stack about that high.
Mr. LIEBELER. About 5 inches or 6 inches, maybe?
Mrs. GARNER. About that high.
Mr. LIEBELER About the width of your hand?
Mrs. GARNER Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. What color were they, do you remember?
Mrs. GARNER. That I can't remember. They looked like yellow and pink, all different colors.
Mr. LIEBELER. Approximately how old was this fellow?
Mrs. GARNER. Well, he was young. I don't believe he was young as Oswald, but he was young, in his thirties I guess.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was he as tall as Oswald?
Mrs. GARNER. No, he was shorter.
Mr. LIEBELER. Shorter than Oswald?
Mrs. GARNER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he wear sunglasses, if you remember?
Mrs. GARNER. No, he didn't have sunglasses on because it was so late in the evening, just about dark.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was he of a light build, or was he heavy set?
Mrs. GARNER No, I wouldn't say. He wasn't light, wasn't heavy; he was in between that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he have an accent, do you remember?
Mrs. GARNER. Yes. That's why I said he was either Spanish or Cuban. I don't know. He speaks broken English, like.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell the FBI about this gentleman coming there?
Mrs. GARNER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you mention to the FBI that this man had----
Mrs. GARNER. The pamphlet?
Mr. LIEBELER. The pamphlets.
Mrs. GARNER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. You told that to the FBI?
Mrs. GARNER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember approximately when this fellow came to see Oswald?
Mrs. GARNER. That I don't remember. I know it was around that time, just right after he was picked up on Canal Street for distributing them. It was a few days after that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you learn about his arrest?
Mrs. GARNER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. On Canal Street?
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Mrs. GARNER. Yes, I read it in the papers.
Mr. LIEBELER. You read about it in the newspaper?
Mrs. GARNER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any conversation with Oswald about that incident?
Mrs. GARNER. No, I don't think I did myself. No, I didn't talk to him about that, because it was just before that happened on Canal Street he had put them on the screen and I had my husband take them down, and after that, that is when he was picked up on Canal Street.
Mr. LIEBELER. What was this incident with the screen? Would you tell us about that?
Mrs. GARNER. Those pamphlets, "Hands off Cuba," or something like that. He had pamphlets on the screen porch in the front, and I told my husband go take those things down, I didn't like them there. He went and told him to take them down, and he said who suggested that, and he said I did and he took them down and never gave us no trouble about it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Let me show you a picture that is marked Exhibit No. 1 to the affidavit of your husband Jesse J. Garner, and I ask you if the leaflet that you see in that picture is a picture of a leaflet like the one Oswald put on the screen?
Mrs. GARNER. Yes, that's it.
Mr. LIEBELER. And do you recognize the person in that picture?
Mrs. GARNER. Yes, that is Lee Oswald. I would recognize him from the back of his head.
Mr. LIEBELER. It appears to be a picture of him handing out pamphlets or sheets of paper on which appears the language, "Hands off Cuba," and some other writing that can't be read.
Mrs. GARNER. They had some other writing on the bottom, but I never read it. I saw this "Hands off Cuba," and I didn't like it on the porch and I made him take them down. That, must have been taken on Canal Street; it looks like it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recognize the surrounding area, the background of the picture?
Mrs. GARNER. That's what I said, it looks like it. It is either Canal or Royal somewhere. I don't know. It might not be here; I don't know.
Mr. LIEBELER. You don't recognize the background for sure?
Mrs. GARNER. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. When this incident----
Mrs. GARNER. Let me get my glasses. Maybe I can see better.
Mr. LIEBELER. When this incident concerning the leaflet on the screen of the porch occurred, was that before or after Oswald had been arrested?
Mrs. GARNER. That was before.
Mr. LIEBELER. Before he was arrested?
Mrs. GARNER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. How long before?
Mrs. GARNER. That I don't remember. I don't remember exactly all that, but I know--I can't very well see, but it looks like around here somewhere.
Mr. LIEBELER. Aside from the two different people you have previously mentioned as having visited Oswald, one the Cuban or Spanish fellow and the other two for a total of three people you saw come to visit Oswald, did you ever see anybody else come to visit in his apartment?
Mrs. GARNER. Not that I know of.
Mr. LIEBELER. Late in September sometime, as I understand it, this station-wagon that brought Oswald's wife to the apartment in the first place returned?
Mrs. GARNER. Yes; it did.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did it not?
Mrs. GARNER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see who was driving the station wagon at that time?
Mrs. GARNER. No; I didn't see who was driving it. All I saw was the stationwagon.
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Mr. LIEBELER. You never saw the person who came in the station wagon that time?
Mrs. GARNER. I did not.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did your husband see that person?
Mrs. GARNER. Yes; my husband.
Mr. LIEBELER. At this time.
Mrs. GARNER. Yes; my husband saw her and spoke to her. I never did see her.
Mr. LIEBELER. He told you it was a lady, did he not?
Mrs. GARNER. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. And the lady, from reading the newspaper, you and your husband assumed that this was Mrs. Ruth Paine of Irving, Tex.?
Mrs. GARNER. That's right.
Mr. LIEBELER. But you yourself never met or talked to Mrs. Paine?
Mrs. GARNER. I never did.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you become aware of the fact that Oswald was employed during the time that he lived in your apartment? Did you know anything about his job?
Mrs. GARNER. When he rented the apartment he told me he was working at Reily Coffee Co. on Magazine, whatever you call it. It is a coffee company, and as far as I know I didn't think he worked there as long as he did, because he was always home, unless he worked at night.
Mr. LIEBELER. When did you learn that Oswald had been dismissed from the job, or no longer worked at Reily Coffee Co., if you ever learned that?
Mrs. GARNER. As I said, it seemed like when he rented the apartment, I didn't think he worked 2 or 3 weeks. Well, but I learned later he didn't get laid off until July 19, something like that, unless they changed shifts, because he was working in the day at first and I used to see him get off the bus in the evening coming home, but then after that I didn't see him any more. He was always sitting on the screen porch reading. He must have been working at night. He was always on the side porch, probably reading all the time.
Mr. LIEBELER. You say he read a lot?
Mrs. GARNER. He sure did.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see at any time what he was reading?
Mrs. GARNER. Well, it always was books, like those pocket books and papers, real big books, regular books.
Mr. LIEBELER. You never saw the names of any of the books?
Mrs. GARNER. No; you couldn't get that near him.
Mr. LIEBELER. What else did he do with his spare time besides reading?
Mrs. GARNER. That's all I ever saw him do. To say if he ever went out or anything like that, he would go back and forth, catch the bus and go, and didn't stay long and come back. How many times he went out at night or anything like that, I don't know. I really couldn't tell you because I wasn't on that side. The few times I did see him I just happened to be out there.
Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned something about him wearing a bathing suit.
Mrs. GARNER. That's all he always wore, all the time. Always he had thongs on and yellow shorts, bathing trunks, and nothing on top walking around the yard like that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Also the Commission has been informed that Oswald spent a considerable amount of time spraying bugs or insects of one sort or another.
Mrs. GARNER. He did. He done that, yes. He was always around the back of the house where the bathroom window was, spraying some sort, and the screen porch he would spray.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever talk to him about this spraying activity of his?
Mrs. GARNER. No; I never did.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether your husband did?
Mrs. GARNER. No; he didn't. I don't guess he did; he never said anything about it, but there were plenty of ants and I guess that is why he was spraying. They always had a lot of ants, you know, and roaches. I know they had a lot of roaches
Mr. LIEBELER. Cockroaches?
Mrs. GARNER. In that apartment, when they left.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever complain to you about them?
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Mrs. GARNER. No. We never had them before he moved. Whenever we used to spray, we had the pest control, but when he moved out they had plenty of them. They left the place filthy, too.
Mr. LIEBELER. The place was dirty when he left?
Mrs. GARNER. Was it? The icebox was broken, the freezer door was broken off, the stove was broken, the mattress was ruined.
Mr. LIEBELER. What was wrong with the mattress?
Mrs. GARNER. I guess the baby.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether his wife, Marina, liked the apartment?
Mrs. GARNER. I don't know. She never did say anything about it.
Mr. LIEBELER. She never did say anything about it?
Mrs. GARNER. I never did talk to her about any apartment.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you yourself personally see when this station wagon left?
Mrs. GARNER. No; I didn't see it.
Mr. LIEBELER. It arrived late in September 1963?
Mrs. GARNER. I didn't see when it left; no.
Mr. LIEBELER. When was the last time you saw the station wagon, please?
Mrs. GARNER. Well, whatever day that was, Sunday or Monday, whenever they left. It was about that morning. Like I said, early that morning they was packing it up, and then later on through the day between 10 and 11 I looked out there and it was gone.
Mr. LIEBELER. This would be either Sunday or Monday, September 22 or 23? Is that right?
Mrs. GARNER. That's right.
Mr. LIEBELER. You are not exactly positive which it was?
Mrs. GARNER. I am not sure whether it was Sunday or Monday.
Mr. LIEBELER. Your husband is pretty sure it was Monday.
Mrs. GARNER. He is sure it was Monday; yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. The 23d of September.
Mrs. GARNER Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you have no recollection that is contrary to that; is that correct?
Mrs. GARNER. No; I haven't.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see Oswald leave, when he finally left the apartment?
Mrs. GARNER. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know when he left?
Mrs. GARNER. Well, I figure he left that same night, whatever day that wagon left, myself. I don't think he come back. He might have come back in that apartment to get his stuff, whatever he had. I don't think he stayed there that night at all, that's what I believe.
Mr. LIEBELER. Your husband said in the discussion we had with him previously that he heard some noise in the apartment the night the station wagon left.
Mrs. GARNER. He might have heard him packing up stuff getting ready to leave. I don't think he come back after he left that night; I think he left that night.
Mr. LIEBELER. Your husband did say he thought he heard these noises about 7 or 7:30 in the evening. Is that right?
Mrs. GARNER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. You say you think the noise he heard was just the noise of Oswald getting his stuff and leaving?
Mrs. GARNER. Yes; getting his stuff to get moving.
Mr. LIEBELER. In any event, you never saw Oswald around the place at all after the day the station wagon left; is that right?
Mrs. GARNER. No; I didn't.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss with anybody who lived in the neighborhood or in the apartment house when actually Oswald did leave? When we think about this question, let's first of all confine ourselves to the period of time prior to the assassination. Were you concerned about when Oswald left or how he left, prior to the time of the assassination?
Mrs. GARNER. You mean how he left?
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Mr. LIEBELER. That is, did you talk to any of the neighbors or anybody in the building?
Mrs. GARNER. When they seen him leave?
Mr. LIEBELER. Did they see him go?
Mrs. GARNER. Yes. I don't remember asking anybody, just figured that he had skipped and left that night. I didn't bother asking anybody about that, but later I was talking to Mr. Rogers, one of the tenants, and he said yes, he seen him leave about that time that evening, the bus was coming and he ran out with his suitcase.
Mr. LIEBELER. That was after the assassination, you talked to Mr. Rogers?
Mrs. GARNER. Yes; definitely after.
Mr. LIEBELER. After you had been interviewed by the FBI and Secret Service?
Mrs. GARNER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Rogers--what is his full name; do you know?
Mrs. GARNER. Eric Rogers; is all I know.
Mr. LIEBELER. Does he still live there?
Mrs. GARNER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Rogers told you he saw Oswald the same evening that the station wagon left? Is that right?
Mrs. GARNER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And he saw Oswald come out of the apartment house and run to catch a bus?
Mrs. GARNER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is that right?
Mrs. GARNER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And it was about dark?
Mrs. GARNER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Mr. Rogers say how many suitcases Oswald had in his hand?
Mrs. GARNER. He just said with his suitcases or suitcase. I don't remember exactly what he said.
Mr. LIEBELER. You are not able to tell us whether Oswald had one suitcase, two suitcases with him when he left, or what?
Mrs. GARNER. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. And Mr. Rogers didn't tell you?
Mrs. GARNER. No; I didn't ask him. I don't remember. I don't remember, really if it was the same day the station wagon left or not he told me, and I don't think he even said that day it was, but it must have been right after that, you know, what night or the next day. I feel like it was that night. It must have been, because I know he didn't have any reason to stay around there any longer.
Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Rogers didn't specifically say it was the same day?
Mrs. GARNER. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever say what kind of luggage Oswald had?
Mrs. GARNER. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. You never saw Oswald with any suitcases of any kind?
Mrs. GARNER. I never was in the apartment. After they rented the apartment, I never went in the apartment.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you never saw him outside with any luggage?
Mrs. GARNER. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you never saw what kind of luggage they were packing in the station wagon?
Mrs. GARNER. I saw boxes, but I never did see any luggage. I saw boxes, and baby beds and playpens and stuff like that.
Mr. LIEBELER. But you don't remember noticing any specific suitcase of any kind?
Mrs. GARNER. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form an opinion as to whether Marina Oswald could speak English or not?
Mrs. GARNER. Well, I didn't think she could speak English at all. When I heard her on television say a few words, something like that, I was surprised because at home she never said anything. And another thing, she would nod,
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try to tell you hello when he wasn't there, but if he was there like they was sitting on the steps or something, or they would go through the drive and he was there, she wouldn't even look at you.
Mr. LIEBELER. She was more friendly and outgoing when Oswald wasn't there?
Mrs. GARNER. Yes; when he was there, she wouldn't have nothing to say.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever see a rifle or gun of any kind in the apartment, or around the apartment?
Mrs. GARNER. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Or the station wagon, or just anywhere?
Mrs. GARNER. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. You never had any reason to believe that Oswald had a rifle in his possession?
Mrs. GARNER. No; I never knew about that, never saw anything looked like a gun or anything like that. Like I said, they have asked me that so many times before, and they just packed this station wagon and if he had a gun I don't guess he put it where anybody could see it, and whatever was in the station wagon could have been, I mean anything with value, because they took a few days packing it to leave and it sat out there at night on the street.
Mr. LIEBELER. Without locking, or do you know whether they locked the station wagon?
Mrs. GARNER. I don't know whether they locked it, but that don't do much good in this city. It don't do any good to lock your doors; what good does it do? I nail mine; that is better yet.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss with anybody besides Mr. Rogers whether or not Oswald left on the same day his wife did, or how he left?
Mrs. GARNER. Do you mean in the neighborhood?
Mr. LIBELER. Yes.
Mrs. GARNER. I never talked too much to them, you know, unless I might be talking to Miss Eames next door and said he might have left that same night or something like that, but that's about all.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was that Mrs. Eames?
Mrs. GARNER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Mrs. Doris E. Eames?
Mrs. GARNER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. She lives at 4907 Magazine Street?
Mrs. GARNER. Yes; right next to Oswald's apartment, in other words, and their kitchen windows was even to each other, across from each other.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald get any mail that you know of while he lived in the apartment 4907 or 4905 Magazine Street?
Mrs. GARNER. Not that I know of. I never went around the mailboxes to find out that, never went around the mailbox to see what kind of mail, and after he left I checked the mailbox and my husband found a light and gas bill and sent it back to the company.
Mr. LIEBELER. I believe you said Oswald actually owed you about 2 weeks' rent when they left. Is that right?
Mrs. GARNER. Fifteen days, something like that, 2 or 3 weeks. I think it was 3 weeks' rent, because the last time when I sent my husband to see about the rent, I told him it was going to be 3 weeks, and, "You know he isn't going to catch up with that and pay another month's rent and stay here by himself."
Mr. LIEBELER. He moved in on the 9th of May; is that right?
Mrs. GARNER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And he left about the 22d of September or the 23d?
Mrs. GARNER. About the 22d or 23d.
Mr. LIBELER. So he would have had to pay up the rent through the 9th of September?
Mrs. GARNER. Through the 9th, the 9th of September; that was when.
Mr. LIEBELER That was when the rent came due again?
Mrs. GARNER. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. And he paid his rent for the month?
Mrs. GARNER. You see, he was paid up to the 9th of September.
Mr. LIEBELER. He was paid through the 9th of September?
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Mrs. GARNER. Right; and after the 9th he started on another month but never paid me.
Mr. LIEBELER. He left owing rent for the period from September 9 until the time he left?
Mrs. GARNER. The 24th or 23d, whatever date it was.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Mr. Louis N. Rico?
Mrs. GARNER. Yes; I think that is my tenant in the back in the detached apartment, away in the back downstairs, Louis Rico.
Mr. LIEBELER. They don't live there any more?
Mrs. GARNER. No; they moved.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether they had anything to do with Oswald?
Mrs. GARNER. No; he never did talk to him. Oswald wouldn't bother with nobody.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever see Oswald drive a car?
Mrs. GARNER. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether he could drive?
Mrs. GARNER. No; I couldn't answer that. I don't know.
Mr. LIEBELER You had no way of knowing where Oswald went when he left your apartment house, do you?
Mrs. GARNER No; I sure don't.
Mr. LIEBELER. As far as you know, Oswald intended to stay on in the apartment, at least that is what he had told your husband?
Mrs. GARNER. That's what I figured all the time, and every time I passed he was sitting on the porch, or either sitting by the lamp inside of the living room when it was dark, reading.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you think of anything else you remember about Oswald? Is there anything else you know about him that the Commission ought to know that I have not asked you about?
Mrs. GARNER. Well, like I say, every time I talk, I tried to think, and there is really nothing. I just usually always stay by myself and never go to the door unless I have to. The only thing is--I did hear a couple of times like they were arguing and she would be crying. I guess they were arguing, I couldn't understand the Russian language and she would be crying, and that went on a couple of hours at a time, and I figured that was family trouble. I couldn't even understand what they were saying.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did they seem to have more family trouble than most people, or do you think they got along fairly well?
Mrs. GARNER. It is just about twice I heard it in the months they were there.
Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't have the impression----
Mrs. GARNER. I didn't think they was arguing, because when they talk that language it sounds like they are arguing all the time to me, but those two times she happened to be crying, and I could hear her raising her voice higher and him too. He was just abrupt.
Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't have the impression they were having any particular difficulty with their marriage, did you?
Mrs. GARNER. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. They didn't seem to have----
Mrs. GARNER. It didn't seem that way to me. You never did see them together in the daytime. I saw them once when they left for that weekend, and that is the only time they had left there together.
Mr. LIEBELER. She stayed at home pretty much?
Mrs. GARNER. She stayed home all the time, and I see her coming from the grocery store once in awhile.
Mr. LIEBELER. I don't believe I have any more questions at this time, Mrs. Garner, if you can't think of anything else you would like to add. I think we can terminate the deposition. I do want to thank you for the patience that you and your husband have shown to me and for the cooperation you have given us in coming down here and testifying. On behalf of the Commission I want to thank you both very much.
Mrs. GARNER. I am only too glad to do it. Anything else we can do, it would be all right.
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