4^TH Back Yard Photo

WC Volume I  Page 146

The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will be in order. Mrs. Oswald, you may continue with your statement.

            Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. Now, we are in Mrs. Paine's home yet.

            The CHAIRMAN. Yes. This is on the day of the assassination?

            Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir--the 22d, Friday, the 22d.

            I am worried because Lee hasn't had an attorney. And I am talking about that, and Mrs. Paine said, "Oh, don't worry about that. I am a member of the Civil Liberties Union , and Lee will have an attorney, I can assure you."

            I said to myself but when? Of course, I didn't want to push her, argue with her. But the point was if she was a member of the Union , why didn't she see Lee had an attorney then. So I wasn't too happy about that.

            Now, gentlemen, this is some very important facts.

            My daughter-in-law spoke to Mrs. Paine in Russian, "Mamma." she says. So she takes me into the bedroom and closes the door. She said, "Mamma, I show you." She opened the closet, and in the closet was a lot of books and papers. And she came out with a picture a picture of Lee, with a gun.

            It said, "To my daughter June"-written in English.

            I said, "Oh, Marina, police." I didn't think anything of the picture.

            Now, you must understand that I don't know what is going on on television--I came from the jailhouse and everything, so I don't know all the circumstances, what evidence they had against my son by this time. I had no way of knowing. But I say to my daughter, "To my daughter. June." anybody can own a rifle, to go hunting. You yourself probably have a rifle. So I am not connecting this with the assassination--"To my daughter, June." Because I would immediately say, and I remember--I think my son is all agent all the time no one is going to be foolish enough if they mean to assassinate the President, or even murder someone to take a picture of themselves with that rifle, and leave that there for evidence.

            So, I didn't think a thing about it. And it says "To my daughter, June." I said, "The police," meaning that if the police got that, they would use that against my son, which would be a natural way to think.

            She says, "You take, Mamma."'

            "Yes, Mamma, you take."

            I said, "No, Marina. Put back in the book." So she put the picture back in the book. Which book it was, I do not know.

            So the next day, when we are at the courthouse this is on Saturday-she--we were sitting down, waiting to see Lee. She puts her shoe down, she says, "Mamma, picture." She had the picture folded up in her shoe.

            Now, I did not see that it was the picture. but I know that it was, because she told me it was, and I could see it was folded up. It wasn't open for me to see. I said, " Marina ." Just like that. So Robert came along and she says,

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"Robert" I said, "No, no Marina ." I didn't want her to tell Robert about the picture. Right there, you know. That was about the picture.

            Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever tell her to destroy the picture?

            Mrs. OSWALD. No. Now, I have to go into this. I want to tell you about destroying the picture.

            Now, that was in Mrs. Paine's home.

            I want to start to remember--because when we leave Mrs. Paine's home, we go into another phase, where the picture comes in again. So I have to tell the--unless you want to ask me specific questions.

            Mr. RANKIN. No, you go right ahead.

            Mrs. OSWALD. Mrs. Paine, in front of me, gave Marina $10. Now, Mrs. Paine, when I said, after the representatives left--I said, "You know, I do want to get paid for the story, because I am destitute, and here is a girl with--her husband is going to be in jail, we will need money for attorneys, with two babies."

            She said, "You don't have to worry about Marina . Marina will always have a home with me, because Marina helps."

            Now, Mrs. Paine speaks Russian fluently. "She helps me with my Russian language. She babysits for me and helps me with the housework, and you never have to worry about Marina . She will always have a home with me."

            Now, Mr. and Mrs. Paine are separated. Mr. Paine does not live here. So it is just the two women.

            So, Mrs. Paine didn't graciously do anything for Marina , as the paper stated--that Lee never did pay Mrs. Paine for room or board. Mrs. Paine owes them money. That is almost the kind of work that I do, or the airline stewardesses do, serve food and everything. Marina was earning her keep, and really should have had a salary for it--what I am trying to say, gentlemen, Mrs. Paine had Marina there to help babysit with the children, with her children-if she wanted to go running around and everything.

            So actually she wasn't doing my son or Marina the favor that she claims she was doing.

            But the point I am trying to stress is that she did tell me Marina would never have to worry, because Marina would have a home with her.

            At this particular moment, I cannot remember anything of importance in the house. Otherwise, about the picture I have stated. And Mrs. Paine with the Life representative, and her saying that Lee would have an attorney, and Mrs. Paine giving Marina a $10 bill.

            Oh, Marina told me, "Mamma, I have this money." It was money in an envelope--in the bedroom, when she showed me the picture. I said, "How much money, Marina ."

            "About how much?" I asked her.

            "About $100 and some."

            Now, Mrs. Paine has stated to the Life representative that Lee and Marina were saving his pay in order to have a home for themselves for Christmas time, because they had never been in a home of their own at Christmas time in order to celebrate Christmas. So, the hundred and some odd dollars isn't a big sum, considering that Lee paid $8 a week room in Dallas --and it has been stated by the landlady that Lee ate lunchmeat or fruit. And Lee was very, very thin when I saw him. And Lee gave his salary to his wife in order to save to have this home for Christmas.

            So, that is not a lot of money to have in the house I would not think so, because I believe Lee was earning about $50 a week. And let's say he could live for about $10 or $12. And he gave the rest of the money to his wife.

            And so I reported this money to the Secret Service while we were in Six Flags--that Marina had the money. I wanted them to know. She showed me the money.

            I cannot think now-I did think of the money after going back--but I cannot think of anything at this particular moment that would be of any benefit that happened in this house.

            Mr. RANKIN. In regard to the photograph, I will show you some photographs. Maybe you can tell me whether they are the ones that you are referring to. Here is Commission's Exhibit 134.

            Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, that is not the picture.

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            Mr. RANKIN. And 133, consists of two different pictures.

            Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, that is not the picture. He was holding the rifle and it said, "To my daughter, June, with love." He was holding the rifle up.

            Mr. RANKIN. By holding it up, you mean----

            Mrs. OSWALD. Like this.

            Mr. RANKIN. Crosswise, with both hands on the rifle?

            Mrs. OSWALD. With both hands on the rifle.

            Mr. RANKIN. Above his head?

            Mrs. OSWALD. That is right.

            Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever see these pictures, Exhibits 133 and 134?

            Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, I have never seen those pictures.

            Mr. RANKIN. Now, you were going to tell us about some further discussion of the picture you did see?

            Mrs. OSWALD. Yes--all right.

            Now, so the next morning the two representatives of the Life Magazine, Mr. Allen Grant and Mr. Tommy Thompson come by at 9 o'clock with a woman, Russian interpreter, a doctor somebody. I have not been able to find this woman. I have called the universities, thinking that she was a language teacher, and I--maybe you have her name. But she is very, very important to our story.             And I do want to locate her, if possible.

            During the night, I had decided I was going to take up their offer, because I would be besieged by reporters and everything. So why not go with the Life representatives, and let them pay my room and board and my daughter-in-law's. They came by at 9 o'clock, without calling, with this Russian interpreter.  Marina was getting dressed and getting the children dressed. He was taking pictures all the time.

            Mr. RANKIN. They came by where?

            Mrs. OSWALD. Mrs. Paine's home. And there was no hurry, though, to leave the home, because Mrs. Paine was most anxious for the Life representatives to talk to her and get these pictures and everything--whether Marina has any part in this I don't know, because they spoke Russian, and she didn't tell me about it. But I know Mrs. Paine did.

            We left with the two Life representatives. They brought us to the Hotel Adolphus in Dallas . I immediately upon entering the hotel picked up the phone and called Captain Will Fritz, to see if Marina and I could see Lee at the jailhouse.

            Mr. RANKIN. Who is he?

            Mrs. OSWALD. He is one of the big men in Dallas on this case.

            Mr. RANKIN. The Chief of Detectives, or something like that?

            Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. And I called him from the hotel, and the man that answered the phone said he would relay my message to him, that I wanted to see if Marina and 1 could see Lee. I waited on the phone. He came back and said, "Yes, Mrs. Oswald, Captain Fritz said you may see Lee at 12 o'clock today."

            We arrived at the Adolphus Hotel between 9:30 and 10:00.

            Mr. RANKIN. This was what day?

            Mrs. OSWALD. This was Saturday, November 23, the morning of Saturday, November 23.

            While we Were there, an FBI agent, Mr. Hart Odum entered the room with another agent, and wanted Marina to accompany him to be questioned.

            Mr. RANKIN. Were these FBI agents?

            Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir; Mr. Hart Odum is an FBI agent. And I said, "No, we are going to see Lee." We were all eating breakfast when he came in. said, "No, we have been promised to see Lee. She is not going with you."

            So he said, "Well, will you tell Mrs. Oswald, please"--to the interpreter, "I would like to question her and I would like her to come with me to be questioned."

            I said, "It is no good. You don't need to tell the interpreter that, because my daughter-in-law is not going with you. We have been promised to see Lee. And besides Marina has testified, made her statement at the courthouse yesterday, and any further statements that Marina will make will be through counsel."

            Mr. Odum said to the interpreter, "Mrs. Oswald"--to the interpreter--"will you tell Mrs. Oswald to decide what she would like to do and not listen to her mother-in-law."

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            I said, "It is no good to tell my daughter-in-law, because my daughter-in-law is not leaving here with you, Mr. Odum, without counsel."

            And I had been telling Marina , "No, no."

            She said, "I do, Mamma," she kept saying.

            Just then my son, Robert, entered the room, and Mr. Odum said., "Robert, we would like to take Marina and question her."

            He said, "No, I am sorry, we are going to try to get lawyers for both she and Lee."

            So he left.

            We went to the courthouse and we sat and sat, and while at the courthouse my son, Robert, was being interviewed by--I don't know whether it was Secret Service or FBI agents--in a glass enclosure. We were sitting--an office, a glass enclosed office. We were sitting on the bench right there.

            Mr. RANKIN. Where was this?

            Mrs. OSWALD. In the Dallas courthouse, on Saturday.

            So we waited quite a while. One of the men came by and said "I am sorry that we are going to be delayed in letting you see Lee, but we have picked up another suspect."

            I said, to Marina , "Oh, Marina , good, another man they think maybe shoot Kennedy."

            Mr. RANKIN. Did you ask anything about who this suspect was?

            Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. He just give the information why we would be delayed. We sat out there quite a while. The police were very nice. They helped us about the baby. We went into another room for privacy, for Marina to nurse Rachel. It was 2 or 3 hours before we got to see Lee. We went upstairs and were allowed to see Lee. This was in the jail--the same place I had been from the very beginning, and we were taken upstairs. And by the way, they only issued a pass for Marina and myself, and not for Robert. And Robert was very put out, because he thought he was also going to see his brother.  Whether Robert saw his brother or not, I do not know, Mr. Rankin.

            Mr. RANKIN. About what time of day was this?

            Mrs. OSWALD. Just a minute now. We arrived there at 12 o'clock. This would be about 4 or 4:30 in the afternoon, before we got to see Lee.

            Mr. RANKIN. Was anyone else present when he saw you?

            Mrs. OSWALD. No. Marina and I were escorted back of the door where they had an enclosure and telephones. So Marina got on the telephone and talked to Lee in Russian. That is my handicap. I don't know what was said. And Lee seemed very severely composed and assured. He was well--beaten up. He had black eyes, and his face was all bruised and everything. But he was very calm. He smiled with his wife, and talked with her, and then I got on the phone and I said, "Honey, you are so bruised up, your face. What are they doing?"

            He said, "Mother, don't worry. I got that in a scuffle."

            Now, my son would not tell me they had abused him. That was a boy's way to his mother--if he was abused, and it was shown in the paper his black eyes--he wouldn't tell how he got that. He said that was done in the scuffle. I talked and said, "Is there anything I can do to help you?"

            He said, "No, Mother, everything is fine. I know my rights, and I will have an attorney. I have already requested to get in touch with Attorney Abt, I think is the name. Don't worry about a thing."

            Mr. RANKIN. Did you say anything to him about another suspect?

            Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not. That was my entire conversation to him.

            Gentlemen, you must realize this. I had heard over the television my son say, "I did not do it. I did not do it."

            And a million of the other people had heard him. I say this. As a mother--I heard my son say this. But also as a citizen, if I had heard another man say, I didn't do it, I will have to believe that man, because he hasn't been-hasn't had the opportunity to present his side of the case. So here is my son. When I saw him people had said, "Did you ask him if he did it?"

            No, sir. I think by now you know my temperament, gentlemen. I would not insult my son and ask him if he shot at President Kennedy. Why? Because I myself heard him say, "I didn't do it, I didn't do it."

            So, that was enough for me, I would not ask that question.

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            Mr. RANKIN. Who told you that there was--they had found another suspect?

            Mrs. OSWALD. One of the officers. That, sir, I don't know. He just walked in real fast while we were sitting down and said they had picked up another suspect, and it was in the paper that they had picked up another suspect at that particular time, which would have been approximately 1 o'clock that day.

            Mr. RANKIN. But you don't remember the officer's name?

            Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, that is all he said and he left. He was just relaying why we would be delayed. But it was also published. I do not have the paper or the information. But I do know from the reporters, when I told my story, that part to them-- they said that substantiates the newspaper story that they did pick up a suspect at that time.

            Mr. RANKIN. About how long did you and Marina spend there with your son?

            Mrs. OSWALD. I would say I spent about 3 or 4 minutes on the telephone, and then Marina came back to the telephone and talked with Lee. So we left. Marina started crying. Marina says, "Mamma, I tell Lee I love Lee and Lee says he love me very much. And Lee tell me to make sure I buy shoes for June."

            Now, here is a man that is accused of the murder of a President. This is the next day, or let's say about 24 hours that he has been questioned. His composure is good. And he is thinking about his young daughter needing shoes.

            Now, June was wearing shoes belonging to Mrs. Paine's little girl, Marina told me they were little red tennis shoes, and the top was worn. They were clean, and the canvas was showing by the toe part, like children wear out their toes.

            I ask you this, gentlemen. If Marina had a hundred and some odd dollars in the house, why is it necessary that my son has to tell her at the jailhouse, remind her to buy shoes for his baby, for their child? Just a few dollars out of that hundred and some odd dollars would have bought shoes for this particular child.

            Another way to look at this, as I stated previously--that the boy is concerned about shoes for his baby, and he is in this awful predicament. So he must feel innocent, or sure that everything is going to be all right, as he told me.

            Mr. RANKIN. Now, in this telephone conversation, when you talked to your son, can you explain a little bit to the Commission how that is? Was your son on the other side of a wall or something?

            Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. My son was on the other side of the wall, and then back of the wall was a door with a peephole, where an officer was.

            Now, we are going to come from the door, with the peephole and the officer, to my son. Then a glass partition and then glass partitions like telephone booths. But not really inclosed--just a little separation.

            Mr. RANKIN. So you could not reach in there and take your son's hand?

            Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. We talked by telephone.

            Mr. RANKIN. And he had a telephone on his side, and----

            Mrs. OSWALD. And he had a telephone.

            Mr. RANKIN. And you talked back and forth?

            Mrs. OSWALD. Back and forth, that is right. That is the way we talked. And the boy was badly beat up. I have proof in the papers--his face, black eyes, all scratched up, his neck was scratched. He was badly beat up. But he assured me they were not mistreating him, that he got some of the bruises in the scuffle. As I say, the boy, if he was being mistreated, would not tell his mother that.

            Mr. RANKIN. And whatever Marina said to him was in Russian, and you didn't understand it?

            Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not understand. But I would say this, it seemed to be just an ordinary pleasant conversation. He was smiling. And she told me he said he loved her very much, she said she loved him, and told about buying the shoes for the baby. That is all she said. She did not tell me any other part of the conversation. And they talked quite a while. She talked with him twice. She talked with him the first time. I got on the phone. Then she talked to him again.

            Mr. RANKIN. Did it sound like there was any dispute or argument?

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            Mrs. OSWALD. No. It was a pleasant conversation. But she did not volunteer to tell me what was said, and I did not ask her what was said.

            Mr. RANKIN. What did you do after that?

            Mrs. OSWALD. So then after that we went back to the Adolphus Hotel. And upon arriving at the hotel-I am a little ahead of my story.

            The police and the detectives at the Dallas jail were most courteous to Marina and I. There were hundreds of reporters out in the corridor. And we were getting ready to leave, so they said that they would take us down the back way--incidentally, the same place where my son was shot. And they had arranged for two to go down and to get a car and to bring into this basement, and take us down the back elevator, and try to avoid the reporters. And there were approximately six or seven in the elevator. When we got down there, there were just a few reporters, and they went way out of their way to elude any reporters. We were at the Adolphus Hotel as I explained to you. And instead of from the jail going straight to the Adolphus Hotel, they drove around 20 or 25 minutes time in circles in order to lose anybody who might be following Marina and I.

            So, as we got to the floor of the Adolphus Hotel, we knocked on the door where we were, and no one answered. We were with two men. Immediately around the corner comes Mr. Tommy Thompson, the Life representative.

            Mr. RANKIN. What two men were you with?

            Mrs. OSWALD. Two men from the Dallas courthouse.

            Mr. RANKIN. From the police?

            Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, from the police.

            So Mr. Tommy Thompson came and they asked for his credentials. I had never even--as thorough as I am trying to be I am trying to tell you there are some things I don't know because of the confusion--I didn't ask for the credentials. I could have been with anybody. I just assumed they were Life representatives. I had not asked. But these Dallas detectives or police, in plain clothes, asked Mr. Tommy Thompson for his credentials, and then left us in his care again.

            Immediately Mr. Tommy Thompson said, "Mrs. Oswald, what do you plan to do now?"

            The interpreter was gone, and so was the other representative, Mr. Allen Grant.

            I said, "Well, the arrangement was that we were going to stay here in the hotel for a few days, and you were going to pay expenses."

            He said, "But you have not given us any facts."

            They were not interested--and to me it seems very strange that they were not interested in my conversation at the jail with my son. They did not even ask if we saw Lee. Yet they knew we left the Adolphus Hotel in order to go see Lee. But they did not even ask if we saw Lee. And I have often wondered about that.

            So when I told him that we expected to stay there, he said, "Well, Mrs. Oswald, the reporters will be coming in flocks, they know where you are. Just a minute."

            He got on the telephone. Mr. Allen Grant--they had a Life the Life representatives had a room on the ninth floor where they had a lot of men working on this case, and we were on the 11th, I believe. So Mr. Allen Grant came down from the ninth floor with another man--I do not know his name because the baby's diapers had to be changed and things of this sort. He said, "Mrs. Oswald"-- they left. Tommy Thompson said, "Mrs. Oswald, what we are going to do is get you on the outskirts of town, so the reporters won't know where you are, and here is some money for your expenses in case you need anything."

            Well, I took the bill, and I put it in my uniform pocket without looking at it.

That may sound strange to you gentlemen, but this is confusion. I knew it was money, and I just put it in my uniform pocket.

            So Mr. Allen Grant escorted my daughter-in-law and I out of the hotel, the Adolphus Hotel, and took us to the Executive Inn, which is on the outskirts of Dallas . We sat in the car. He went in and came out, then, and said, "Mrs. Oswald, I have arranged for you all to stay here for 2 or 3 days. I have to be

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back in San Francisco . Anything you want you have your cash that Mr. Tommy Thompson gave you. And he will be in touch with you."

            Well, I didn't think too much of it. He escorted us with a porter up to our room.

            We had two beautiful suites--two, not one completed rooms and baths, adjoining, at the Executive Inn. And that was the last time I had seen either representative. I was stranded with a Russian girl and two babies. I didn't realize in the beginning. But then it was time for food, and I had to order food. I told Marina to stay aside and that I would let the man in. She stayed in her room. I let this man in with the food, and then I became uneasy, that he might know who we were is what I was uneasy about, because I didn't realize the danger actually Marina and I were in.

            I sensed we were alone. And there I was with a Russian girl. And I didn't want anybody to know who we were, because I knew my son had been picked up.

            So this is where the picture comes in.

            While there, Marina --there is an ashtray on the dressing table. And Marina comes with hits of paper, and puts them in the ashtray and strikes a match to it. And this is the picture of the gun that Marina tore up into bits of paper, and struck a match to it.

            Now, that didn't burn completely, because it was heavy--not cardboard--what is the name for it--a photographic picture. So the match didn't take it completely.

            Mr. RANKIN. Had you said anything to her about burning it before that?

            Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. The last time I had seen the picture was in Marina 's shoe when she was trying to tell me that the picture was in her shoe. I state here now that Marina meant for me to have that picture, from the very beginning, in Mrs. Paine's home. She said--I testified before "Mamma, you keep picture."

            And then she showed it to me in the courthouse. And when I refused it, then she decided to get rid of the picture.

            She tore up the picture and struck a match to it. Then I took it and flushed it down the toilet.

            Mr. RANKIN. And what time was this?

            Mrs. OSWALD. This--now, just a minute, gentlemen, because this I know is very important to me and to you, too.

            We had been in the jail. This was an evening. Well, this, then, would be approximately 5:30 or 6 in the evening.

            Mr. RANKIN. What day?

            Mrs. OSWALD. On Saturday, November 23. Now, I flushed the torn bits and the half-burned thing down the commode. And nothing was said. There was nothing said.

            Mr. RANKIN. That was at the Executive Inn?

            Mrs. OSWALD. At the Executive Inn.  

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Mrs. OSWALD. I went to my room. But then I showed Lee's mother the photograph, where he is photographed with a rifle, and told her he had shot at Walker and it appeared he might have been shooting at the President. She said that I should hide that photograph and not show it to anyone.
On the next day I destroyed one photograph which I had. I think I had two small ones. When we were in the hotel I burned it.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you say anything to her about the destruction of the photographs when she suggested that?
Mrs. OSWALD. She saw it, while I was destroying them.
Mr. RANKIN. After the assassination, did the police and FBI and the Secret Service ask you many questions?
Mrs. OSWALD. In the police station there was a routine regular questioning, as always happens. And then after I was with the agents of the Secret Service and the FBI, they asked me many questions, of course many questions. Sometimes the FBI agents asked me questions which had no bearing or relationship, and if I didn't want to answer they told me that if I wanted to live in this country, I would have to help in this matter, even though they were often irrelevant. That is the FBI.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know who said that to you?

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by  tomnln