TESTIMONY OF MARINA OSWALD PORTER
Mrs. PORTER. Marina Nikolaevna Porter.
Mr. McDONALD. And were you one time known as Marina Oswald?
Mrs. PORTER. Yes, sir.
Mr. McDONALD. Mrs. Porter, are you accompanied today by an attorney?
Mrs. PORTER. Yes.
Mr. McDONALD. And would you please have your attorney identify himself for the record?
Mr. HAMILTON. My name is James Hamilton, and I practice law in the District of Columbia.
Mr. McDONALD. Thank you.
Mrs. Porter, when and where were you born?
Mrs. PORTER. I was born in Soviet Union in city of Molotovsk on July 17, 1941.
Mr. McDONALD. And with whom did you live during your early childhood years?
Mrs. PORTER. With my mother, stepfather, and my grandmother.
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Mr. McDONALD. Mrs. Porter, could you move the microphone a little closer to you ?
Mrs. PORTER. OK.
Mr. McDONALD. Thank you.
And where were these early years spent, what city?
Mrs. PORTER. Archangel.
Mr. McDONALD. When did you move to Minsk?
Mrs. PORTER. When I was 19 years old, I believe.
Mr. McDONALD. And why did you go there?
Mrs. PORTER. I went to live with my aunt and uncle in order to work in the city.
Mr. McDONALD. And what were their names, your aunt and uncle?
Mrs. PORTER. It was Ilya and Valentina Prusakova.
Mr. McDONALD. And your uncle, was he known to you as Uncle Vanya?
Mrs. PORTER. No, Uncle Ilya.
Mr. McDONALD. And where was he employed?
Mrs. PORTER. He was working for MVD in the city of Minsk.
Mr. McDONALD. And what is that, the MVD?
Mrs. PORTER. It is the Ministry of Internal Affairs.
Mr. McDONALD. And what did he do at the MVD?
Mrs. PORTER. I do not know what he exactly did, except I know he has a profession as an engineer.
Mr. McDONALD. Did he ever discuss his job with you?
Mrs. PORTER. No.
Mr. McDONALD. Did he ever discuss his job at home?
Mrs. PORTER. No.
Mr. McDONALD. And he was stationed in Minsk or worked in Minsk?
Mrs. PORTER. Yes.
Mr. McDONALD. Did you ever study English in the Soviet Union?
Mrs. PORTER. Me? No.
Mr. McDONALD. You never studied in school?
Mrs. PORTER. No.
Mr. McDONALD. Mrs. Porter, when did you first meet Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mrs. PORTER. I do not recall the exact month, and the day of the month, but it was in 1961.
Mr. McDONALD. Do you recall whether it was in March of 1961?
Mrs. PORTER. February or March.
Mr. McDONALD. And how were you introduced to him?
Mrs. PORTER. By some mutual friends, a group of students that I know, I knew.
Mr. McDONALD. Can you recall who introduced you?
Mrs. PORTER. No.
Mr. McDONALD. And where were you when this introduction took place?
Mrs. PORTER. It was at the city dance hall in Minsk.
Mr. McDONALD. Can you describe for us, as best you can, your recollection of when you did meet him, what you were doing and who brought you together?
Mrs. PORTER. Well, I was invited by a friend of mine, a medical student who attended, medical students' dance, ball, and when I
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came there, it was a group of students, and one of them was Lee, and some mutual friend introduced me to him.
Mr. McDONALD. Can you recall who that mutual friend was?
Mrs. PORTER. No, I don't.
Mr. McDONALD. Can you recall what you talked about at this first meeting?
Mrs. PORTER. Just typical young people everyday talk, routine talk, about the weather. I do not really recall what it was about.
Mr. McDONALD. Do you recall how long this initial meeting lasted?
Mrs. PORTER. About 2 or 3 hours.
Mr. McDONALD. In other words, you continued to talk with Lee Oswald for 2 to 3 hours?
Mrs. PORTER. No, I didn't. When he asked to dance, we just talked very little.
Mr. McDONALD. Did he tell you he was an American?
Mrs. PORTER. No, not at that--not during the dancing, no.
Mr. McDONALD. At this time you were speaking in Russian together?
Mrs. PORTER. Yes. He spoke with accent so I assumed he was maybe from another state, which is customary in Russia. People from other states do speak with accents because they do not speak Russian. They speak different languages.
Mr. McDONALD. So when you say another state, you mean another Russian state?
Mrs. PORTER. Yes, like Estonia, Lithuania, something like that.
Mr. McDONALD. Did you suspect at all that he was an American?
Mrs. PORTER. No, not at all.
Mr. McDONALD. Did he tell you where he worked?
Mrs. PORTER. Not at that moment.
Mr. McDONALD. Can you recall the first time when you and Lee Oswald had a discussion when he told you about himself?. In other words, when was the first time you had a discussion with Oswald when he told you where he was from, told you something about himself?.
Mrs. PORTER. Well, after the dance, we had been invited for tea or whatever, for a little gathering at somebody's house, one of the friends, and a majority of the group went there, and then I found out that Lee was from America, and of course it was lots of curious people asking questions about his country, and I was one of them.
Mr. McDONALD. Did he say why he left the United States? Did he tell you or anyone in your presence?
Mrs. PORTER. I do not recall that.
Mr. McDONALD. Do you recall asking him why he was in Russia?
Mrs. PORTER. I do not remember if I asked him at that particular evening.
Mr. McDONALD. Did he tell you where in the United States he was from?
Mrs. PORTER. No.
Mr. McDONALD. Can you recall when he first expressed any political views to you?
Mrs. PORTER. Not really. The politics really weren't discussed in the sense comparing two countries, which one is better.
Mr. McDONALD. Did he ever tell you he was a Communist?
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Mrs. PORTER. No.
Mr. McDONALD. Or a Marxist?
Mrs. PORTER. No.
Mr. McDONALD. Or a Trotskyite?
Mrs. PORTER. No.
Mr. McDONALD. Before or after you got married, can you recall what political views he was expressing to you then?
Mrs. PORTER. Well, the political views never have been emphasized in the relationship at all.
Mr. McDONALD. After you got married, and you got married at the end of April in 1962?
Mrs. PORTER. Yes.
Mr. McDONALD. Again I will ask you when did he first tell you the reason why he left the United States and came to Russia?
Mrs. PORTER. Well, I cannot pinpoint the exact date, but if I recall, way back in one conversation or all together, it came clearly-pardon me, I lost the question.
Mr. McDONALD. When do you recall he first told you why he left the United States to come to Russia?
Mrs. PORTER. So anyway he said that being young, he just wanted to see--I mean he read something about Soviet Union and he wanted to see for himself what life looked like in Soviet Union.
Mr. McDONALD. Do you recall him expressing dissatisfaction with the United States?
Mrs. PORTER. No, I do not recall, not at that moment, I mean not at the beginning of the relationship, if he was saying something for or against the United States.
Mr. McDONALD. You are saying at the beginning of your relationship you don't recall him saying anything for or against the United States?
Mrs. PORTER. No.
Mr. McDONALD. When do you recall him first expressing opinions against the United States?
Mrs. PORTER. A few months after the marriage when I found out that he is wishing to return to his homeland. Then he started complaining about the bad weather in Russia and how eager he will be to go back.
Mr. McDONALD. Can you recall Oswald expressing at this time, soon after your marriage but prior to the return, prior to your return to the United States, do you recall him expressing any views about the United States and its political system, either pro or con, for or against--
Mrs. PORTER. No.
Mr. McDONALD [continuing]. And specifically regarding John Kennedy?
Mrs. PORTER. What I learned about John Kennedy it was only through Lee practically, and he always spoke very complimentary about the President. He was very happy when John Kennedy was elected.
Mr. McDONALD. And you are saying while you were still in the Soviet Union he was very complimentary about John Kennedy?
Mrs. PORTER. Yes, it seemed like he was talking about how young and attractive the President of the United States is.
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Mr. McDONALD. Can you recall during this time when he ever expressed any contrary views about Kennedy?
Mrs. PORTER. Never.
Mr. McDONALD. Did you ever ask him directly why did you come to the U.S.S.R.?
Mrs. PORTER. I probably did.
Mr. McDONALD. Can you recall what his answer was?
Mrs. PORTER. Well, he said that he was always curious about Soviet Union, and he bought tourist visa. I asked him how did he got in the United States, I mean to Soviet Union, I am sorry. He said that he bought visa or whatever you call it, asked for permit to enter the country through Finland as a tourist, and then he asked to stay.
Mr. McDONALD. Did he ever talk about defecting from the United States to the Soviet Union?
Mrs. PORTER. What do you mean by that?
Mr. McDONALD. Defect, in other words, renouncing or at least ostensibly renouncing the U.S. citizenship to come to the Soviet Union.
Mrs. PORTER. Well, during the marriage I found out about that, that he did give up his American citizenship, and was afraid it will be very difficult to come back for that reason, or they would not permit him to come back.
Mr. McDONALD. And how did you find out about this?
Mrs. PORTER. I do believe that he told me.
Mr. McDONALD. Before you married him, were you aware of this defection situation?
Mrs. PORTER. I don't remember if I knew that. Oh, you mean before we were married?
Mr. McDONALD. Yes.
Mrs. PORTER. No.
Mr. McDONALD. Did Lee Oswald ever discuss with you the various trips he made to the American Embassy when he was trying to defect? This would have been before you even met. But did he ever tell you about the different times he went to the U.S. Embassy in Moscow?
Mrs. PORTER. No, he did not.
Mr. McDONALD. What was your first impression of Lee Oswald when you met him?
Mrs. PORTER. He was polite, neatly dressed, very courteous, well mannered, and he was quite attractive.
Mr. McDONALD. Did you notice whether he was in the company of other individuals, any friends, the night of the dance?
Mrs. PORTER. Yes, he was.
Mr. McDONALD. In the book "Marina and Lee" by Priscilla Johnson, it says that you first met him, met Lee, on March 17, 1961, and on March 25th, a few days later, you received a call to visit him at the hospital because he was sick. Would you comment on that?
Why did you go? You had only met him at a dance.
Mrs. PORTER. Well, my aunt took the message, and she said there is somebody with the accent calling and they left a message for you to come over. So, of course, I had sympathy for person being in the hospital, why not pay a visit. It was just a courteous thing to do.
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Mr. McDONALD. Even though he was only a casual acquaintance at that time?
Mrs. PORTER. Yes. I did like him.
Mr. McDONALD. Pardon?
Mrs. PORTER. I did like him, so----
Mr. McDONALD. And what did you talk about on this occasion in the hospital and in the hall?
Mrs. PORTER. Well, what do you talk about in a hospital?
Mr. McDONALD. Well, can you recall?
Mrs. PORTER. Just asked how you feel, and what has been done for him over there, and if he has plenty of food to eat and whatever.
Mr. McDONALD. You knew him for briefly 6 weeks, and you got married on April 30, 1961.
Mrs. PORTER. Yes.
Mr. McDONALD. Would you consider that a--well, wasn't that a rather hasty move, hasty decision, after 6 weeks of knowing an individual?
Mrs. PORTER. Not when you are age that I was, you don't think it is.
Mr. McDONALD. At that time did you know anything about him, about his background?
Mrs. PORTER. Not very much, except that he is American.
Mr. McDONALD. Did you know whether he had a family in the United States?
Mrs. PORTER. I do not recall when I found out that he have brother and mother.
Mr. McDONALD. At that time when you married him, did you know whether his mother was alive?
Mrs. PORTER. No.
Mr. McDONALD. Again referring to the book "Marina and Lee," in that book it is stated that you didn't know that Oswald had been in contact with the American Embassy since February of 1961, 2 months, 2 1/2 months prior to your getting married, when he expressed a desire to return to the United States, starting back in February 1961.
Is that true, that you did not have any idea that he had been in touch with the American Embassy?
Mrs. PORTER. No, that was the condition of me accepting his proposal, because I asked him before marriage if you ever be able or will come back to United States, and he said no, so I assumed that he will be living in Soviet Union all the time.
Mr. McDONALD. At that time what was your attitude toward the United States?
Mrs. PORTER. Well, I did not know that much about United States, but I was curious to find out about. I did not have any hostility toward United States.
Mr. McDONALD. When was the first time you learned that Oswald wanted to return to the United States?
Mrs. PORTER. Some time after we were married, a few months later maybe.
Mr. McDONALD. You say a few months?
Mrs. PORTER. Yes.
Mr. McDONALD. Can you recall how you learned?
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Mrs. PORTER. No, I don't. Please do not forget, it was so many years ago.
Mr. McDONALD. I understand. But can you try to remember? That would be, you are a Russian citizen, and the very first time that you learned that your husband wants to leave and take you to the United States, that would be a significant event. I would assume it might have even been a shocking event to you.
Mrs. PORTER. Yes.
Mr. McDONALD [continuing]. To think that you might leave your homeland.
Mrs. PORTER. Yes, it was. It wasn't very easy decision for me to make. What should I do? Should I follow him or should I stay at home?
Mr. McDONALD. But the question was, as best you can recall, how you learned that he, that Oswald, wanted to go back to the United States?
Mrs. PORTER. Well, as far as I remember right now, I think he just asked me one day or one evening what would I think if he come back to United States? Would I go with him? Of course I told him wherever he go, I should too, and I will back him up.
Mr. McDONALD. And right around the time when you first learned that he wanted to go back to the United States, can you recall whether there was any change in his attitude toward the United States politically?
Mrs. PORTER. I do not remember. I don't think it was, because he just wanted to go back home, and that was the main concern of his.
Mr. McDONALD. During your time in Russia together, what were Lee Oswald's political views?
Mrs. PORTER. To tell you the truth, I do not know, because I do not ever--l wasn't interested in politics. I did not discuss this as a fact. I maybe overheard conversation between him and somebody else, an article in newspaper, what they think about certain events at this time.
Mr. McDONALD. Did he discuss politics with you?
Mrs. PORTER. Not much, but every time something aroused, like somebody maybe will be unfair, make an unfair statement toward the United States, he will defend United States.
Mr. McDONALD. Where did Oswald work?
Mrs. PORTER. He worked at the radio factory nearby our apartment.
Mr. McDONALD. And what did he do there?
Mrs. PORTER. I do believe maybe he was some kind of mechanic. I really don't know what kind of job exactly he did.
Mr. McDONALD. Did he ever discuss his job?
Mrs. PORTER. Only thing he said that he did not like it very much, it was manual labor.
Mr. McDONALD. It was manual labor?
Mrs. PORTER. Yes.
Mr. McDONALD. Did he come home in the evening with dirty hands, dirty clothes?
Mrs. PORTER. The first time he did after he came home he went and took a shower right away, so--not really dirty, no.
Mr. McDONALD. On subsequent nights I mean, do you recall whether he would come home--you said he did manual labor. Were
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his hands rough, dirt under the fingernails and generally did it look like he was doing that kind of work?
Mrs. PORTER. Well, not really.
Mr. McDONALD. How about his clothes? Did he have a special set of work clothes?
Mrs. PORTER. I don't remember. I think he did, but I would not recall exactly.
Mr. McDONALD. Who were his friends during this time in Minsk?
Mrs. PORTER. Lee did not have very many friends. I do recall one young man working with him. His name was Pavel Golovachev, and he was around our house quite a lot and they spoke English. So for this young gentleman it was a good practice.
Mr. McDONALD. Was this individual Pavel Golovachev?
Mrs. PORTER. Yes.
Mr. McDONALD. Would you consider him Lee's closest friend?
Mrs. PORTER. I think so.
Mr. McDONALD. When was the first time you met him?
Mrs. PORTER. I do not remember if I met him before we were married or shortly after he came by the house.
Mr. McDONALD. Did he work with Lee at the radio factory?
Mrs. PORTER. I even doubt that--he was invited to the wedding as a friend of Lee.
Mr. McDONALD. Do you recall when you first met him?
Mrs. PORTER. Pardon me?
Mr. McDONALD. When did you first meet him, Pavel Golovachev?
Mrs. PORTER. Like I said earlier, I don't remember. Maybe it was when he was invited to the wedding on April 30.
Mr. McDONALD. That was the the first time you met him?
Mrs. PORTER. I assume by now.
Mr. McDONALD. Did you get to know him well?
Mrs. PORTER. Fairly well.
Mr. McDONALD. Did he come over to your apartment?
Mrs. PORTER. Yes, he was a very nice boy.
Mr. McDONALD. Do you know where he lived? Did he live in the general vicinity of your apartment?
Mrs. PORTER. I don't think so. I think he lived somewhere in town but I don't know where. Not very far away.
Mr. McDONALD. Do you know whether Oswald and Mr. Golovachev ever talked about politics together?
Mrs. PORTER. I really don't know because they spoke in English.
Mr. McDONALD. They spoke in English?
Mrs. PORTER. Yes.
Mr. McDONALD. And why did they do that?
Mrs. PORTER. Because Pavel Golovachev was studying English language and not very many people you can speak the language with, so he said it was a good practice for him being around Lee.
Mr. McDONALD. Do you think this was one of the reasons that he befriended Oswald, to perfect his language ability?
Mrs. PORTER. It could be, and he was interested about United States I feel sure and talked about, compared the life.
Mr. McDONALD. Do you know how they met, how these two individuals met?
Mrs. PORTER. No, I don't.
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Mr. McDONALD. Have you ever heard from this individual since you left Minsk, Mr. Golovachev?
Mrs. PORTER. I do believe when we moved back to United States, we did receive some letters from Soviet Union, but I do not remember exactly from whom. That is possible.
Mr. McDONALD. Generally what kind of person was he, Mr. Golovachev?
Mrs. PORTER. He was quite bright and honest and fun person.
Mr. McDONALD. Thank you, Mrs. Porter.
Mr. Chairman, I am finished with this line of questioning for this phase.
Chairman STOKES. Thank you, Counsel.
The Chair recognizes the gentleman from North Carolina, Judge
Preyer, for such time as he may consume.
Mr. PREYER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mrs. Porter, your English now seems to be very good.
Mrs. PORTER. Thank you.
Mr. PREYER. But if you have any trouble in understanding me or understanding the question, please ask and I shall try to put it in another form which you can understand better.
I would like to continue with a few questions in the period of your early life in Russia with Lee Harvey Oswald.
I might say for the record at this time that Mrs. Porter has given several depositions to the committee, and they will be made a part of the final report, and I think that may explain why we will not ask every conceivable question about this period in your life that we might think of.
When you first married Lee Harvey Oswald, he had his own apartment.
Did you consider that unusual, that a single person in the Soviet Union, who had a menial job, would have his own apartment?
Mrs. PORTER. Yes, it is kind of unusual, but foreigners in Soviet Union usually are treated a little bit better than their own citizens.
Mr. PREYER. In other words, it would have been unusual for a Soviet citizen in his situation to have a single apartment.
Mrs. PORTER. Yes, but he had more privileges as a foreigner.
Mr. PREYER. Were the type of privileges he had and the type of apartment he had like those that other foreigners would have had?
Mrs. PORTER. I do not know because I cannot compare to other foreigners.
Mr. PREYER. Was it the practice that foreigners had better housing accommodations"-
Mrs. PORTER. That is what I heard.
Mr. PREYER [continuing]. Than Soviet citizens?
When you were living in the apartment, did Lee ever have visitors whose identity was unknown to you, that is, did anyone visit you, apart from your normal friends, someone who was a stranger to you?
Mrs. PORTER. No.
Mr. PREYER. Was Lee secretive during this time?
Mrs. PORTER. I think so. For example, he would be writing something on a piece of paper and it will be in English, and if I ask him what it was, he would not talk about.
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Mr. PREYER. Was he devious? By that I mean, would he say, for example, that he was going one place and you learned later that he had gone to another place?
Mrs. PORTER. I do not understand the question what "devious" means. I don't know.
Mr. PREYER. Perhaps the word "deceptive."
Was he deceptive to you? Did he say to you he would do one thing and you later learned he did another thing?
Mrs. PORTER. Not that I know of, not at that particular period of my life.
Mr. PREYER. At this period of your life, did he ever act violently in front of you?
Mrs. PORTER. No.
Mr. PREYER. Did he ever mention to you that he had contact with the KGB, the Soviet intelligence agency?
Mrs. PORTER. No.
Mr. PREYER. In your deposition, one of the depositions you gave the committee, I believe you stated that you both assumed that the KGB was observing you.
What is the basis for that conclusion?
Mrs. PORTER. Well, from Russian newspaper you assume that they don't print exactly what is going on in United States, and I mean act like they maybe mistrust them, so it wasn't surprising for them to keep eye on a foreigner.
Mr. PREYER. Have you personally ever had any contact with the KGB or the MVD?
Mrs. PORTER. I lived in apartment with lots of people. The neighbors were working for the same, how you call it, same not organization, but they worked for MVD. They were different professions, doctors and whatever, and of course I know them as neighbors.
Mr. PREYER. But as far as you know, you had no contact with the KGB or the MVD on any sort of official business basis.
Mrs. PORTER. Did you say "official"?
Would you please repeat your question? Did you say "official"?
Mr. PREYER. As I understood your answer, you stated that some of your neighbors may have been connected with the KGB or the MVD.
Mrs. PORTER. I know they work for it.
Mr. PREYER. Worked for them, but that your contact with them was as neighbors?
Mrs. PORTER. Yes, and sometime in my life I had to go over there and talk to the men at MVD when I was applying for a visa to enter, to leave Soviet Union.
Mr. PREYER. Did you and Lee think that your apartment was bugged?
Mrs. PORTER. Yes, we did.
Mr. PREYER. Why did you expect the bug in your apartment?
Mrs. PORTER. Well, because like I do not even know if bug will take any electricity, but our electric needle would be running when you turn all electrical appliances off. It would still be moving. So we did not know what the reason for that was, except we assumed we had been watched.
Another assumption is that this is quite customary in Soviet Union to keep eye on somebody.
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Mr. PREYER. So that you say it was quite customary to bug foreigners in this situation.
Mrs. PORTER. I am not really making that exact statement. I might have heard gossip about it, and I knew that they do watch foreigners.
Mr. PREYER. Did Lee ever tell you why he thought he was allowed to stay in the Soviet Union?
Mrs. PORTER. I do not recall if he said why. I do not recall right now.
Mr. PREYER. Why did you think he was allowed to stay there, since he was uneducated and was not a scientist or not in that category of foreigners who would normally be welcomed to the Soviet Union?
Mrs. PORTER. When I found out later and during the marriage that he give up his American citizenship and asked for--I mean anyone ask Russia for political asylum, so that was my thinking at the time for the reason.
Mr. PREYER. Did Lee have a rifle, a gun, a rifle, while he was living in Minsk?
Mrs. PORTER. Yes, he did.
Mr. PREYER. Did he hunt with it? If so, how often did he go hunting?
Mrs. PORTER. Not during our marriage he didn't, but he did belong to hunting club, and he said that he did previous to our marrage.
Mr. PREYER. And did I understand you to say that after your marriage, he did not go hunting?
Mrs. PORTER. Not that I know of or remember right now. I don't recall that at all.
Mr. PREYER. Did he often take the rifle out and clean it or look at it or examine it?
Mrs. PORTER. Occasionally he did that.
Mr. PREYER. How were you employed when you first met Lee?
Mrs. PORTER. I did not hear you, sir.
Mr. PREYER. What was your work? How were you employed when you first met Lee Oswald?
Mrs. PORTER. I was a pharmacist and working at the drugstore in nearby hospital.
Mr. PREYER. You mentioned earlier that after you were married, you and Lee thought the apartment was bugged.
Did you think that your mail or Lee's mail was being opened?
Mrs. PORTER. We assumed that it was. Letters are censored that come from foreign countries.
Mr. PREYER. Did Lee ever say anything about his mail being tampered with, that is, that an envelope had been opened and resealed, for example?
Mrs. PORTER. I believe he did.
Mr. PREYER. Can you recall anything about that occasion?
Mrs. PORTER. No, I don't. But since you mentioned it, it does ring a bell that maybe it did happen on one or a few occasions.
Mr. PREYER. Did you feel that you and Lee were being watched, that is, did you see any strange men outside of your apartment who appeared to be loitering near your apartment?
Mrs. PORTER. I don't remember right now.
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Mr. PREYER. Were you a member of the Komsomol?
Do I pronounce that right, the Communist youth movement?
Mrs. PORTER. Yes, I was.
Mr. PREYER. How long were you active in this?
Mrs. PORTER. May I explain myself?. I really wasn't active, although it is very customary in Soviet Union when people at the job belong to this organization. It is the patriotic thing to do, and I have been not exactly forced but have been reminded that it would be more ethical if I do belong to this organization. So I kept refusing it. So finally they said you don't have to do anything if you just pay your dues. So that is what I did for many months. But I never artended meetings at all, except at the end when they finally discharged me from the organization, I had to attend that meeting.
Mr. PREYER. So that if I understand you, you are saying it was customary to join this organization at your place of work.
Mrs. PORTER. Yes.
Mr. PREYER. And that it was social pressure which compelled you.
Mrs. PORTER. Yes, you have to kind of go with the crowd.
Mr. PREYER. And you did, members did pay their dues regularly, and you paid your dues regularly.
Mrs. PORTER. Yes.
Mr. PREYER. Did Lee ever talk about United States politics after you were married, that is, did he talk about officials of the United States, such as the President or the Secretary of State or, did he talk about policies of the U.S. Government?
Mrs. PORTER. If he did, he wasn't talking to me about it, because I wasn't really interested in his political view or anybody's political view.
Mr. PREYER. Specifically did he ever talk about President Kennedy?
Mrs. PORTER. Whatever he said about President Kennedy, it was only good, always.
Mr. PREYER. What was your attitude about the United States at this time?
Mrs. PORTER. In Russia you mean?
Mr. PREYER. Yes, when you were first living in Russia.
Mrs. PORTER. Well, seeing few American tourists in city of Lenin- grad, I learned that the life is not as bad in United States as it is printed in newspaper. So, of course, every Russian is very curious, not every Russian, but majority of young people, very curious about Western World.
Mr. PREYER. From Lee's conversation, did you think he wanted to become a citizen of the Soviet Union at this time?
Mrs. PORTER. Once Lee, I believe he applied for, he sent a letter to university in Moscow, and he was very, very disappointed when he was refused to become a student of this university, and I think that maybe was a changing point about him staying or leaving definitely Soviet Union. He was very disappointed. I do assume that he might have stayed longer, or maybe forever, if he was granted permission to become a student.
Mr. PREYER. When he was not given that permission, his attitude then changed toward becoming a Soviet citizen?
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Mrs. PORTER. If I may speculate right now, that was the reason. At least I assumed that he did want to come to Soviet Union to get education.
Mr. PREYER. Were you surprised when Lee said he wanted to leave the Soviet Union and come to the United States?
Mrs. PORTER. Yes, I was, because he told me that he would not be able to or really wanted to.
Mr. PREYER. Were you pleased that he wanted to come to the United States?
Mrs. PORTER. Not really, nothing against United States, but it was a very major decision for me to make. I did not know that much about United States. So to leave everything behind was quite hard.
Mr. PREYER. Did you ever suspect that Lee might be a spy of some sort for either the Soviet KGB or for the U.S. CIA?
Mrs. PORTER. Well, it crossed my mind sometime. I am sorry to admit that.
Mr. PREYER. I am sorry?
Mrs. PORTER. It did cross my mind sometime during our life in Russia; yes, because he will be sitting with those papers and writing something in English, and I don't know. Maybe he was making reports to somebody and didn't want me to know.
Mr. PREYER. When it crossed your mind, did you think he was a spy for the United States or for the Soviet Union?
Mrs. PORTER. For United States.
Mr. PREYER. And you based that on the fact that he often was writing notes in English which you did not understand.
Mrs. PORTER. Yes.
Mr. PREYER. Did you ever learn later what those notes were, or the writing he was doing?
Mrs. PORTER. I learned about that after Lee died. That is what they call Lee Harvey Oswald diary, or something like that. That is what it was.
Mr. PREYER. So that all of the writing on which you based your thought that he could have been a spy later turned out to be the diary that he was writing.
Mrs. PORTER. Yes, sir.
Mr. PREYER. I mentioned earlier the Komsomol, the Communist youth organization. I believe you were expelled from that organization.
Could you explain to us why that happened?
Mrs. PORTER. Excuse me, I do not understand end of your question.
Mr. PREYER. The Communist youth organization, Komsomol, if I pronounce it correctly, which you joined when you were working at your place of employment, later you were expelled, that is, removed from that organization, kicked out we might say in this country.
Would you explain to us how that happened?
Mrs. PORTER. After I married Lee, the atmosphere at work was changing. I mean I was aware then more so who is my friend and who is not. A few people were kind of, act quite cold toward me, and the pressure at work was put, since I felt like I was a traitor, I married foreigner, I should not belong to this organization.
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Mr. PREYER. So that the fact that you were married to a foreigner was the principal reason that you left the organization.
Mrs. PORTER. I believe so.
Mr. PREYER. When you were in the Soviet Union at this period, did you ever hear President Kennedy speak over the radio?
Mrs. PORTER. Yes.
Did you ask me if I heard or Lee did?
Mr. PREYER. First, I will ask if you heard.
Mrs. PORTER. Yes, I did, but of course I could not understand what he was talking about.
Mr. DODD. Will the gentleman suspend for just 1 second? I just thought it might be worthwhile, Mrs. Porter, we have a recorded vote on, and if you saw everyone leave here all at once, they are just going over to vote and will be coming right back.
Mrs. PORTER. OK.
Mr. PREYER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Was Lee with you when you heard President Kennedy speak over the radio?
Mrs. PORTER. As far as I recall right now, I think he was, because he is the one who tuned the radio on the right station. I believe it was BBC or Voice of America, something like that. It wasn't broadcast through Moscow or any Russian channels.
Mr. PREYER. So that Lee was the one who turned the radio to the channel to hear the President.
Mrs. PORTER. We had a shortwave radio, I believe that is what you call, when you can listen to the foreign stations.
Mr. PREYER. What was your reaction and what was Lee's reaction to hearing the President speak over the radio?
Mrs. PORTER. Well, I kept bugging him what is he saying, what is he saying, and he just told me to hush up, you know, not to interrupt him.
Mr. PREYER. So he told you to hush up.
Mrs. PORTER. Yes.
Mr. PREYER. Did he ever make any comment about the President's speech?
Mrs. PORTER. I do believe that Pavel Golovachev might have been present at this time, so they really discussed it between the two of them, and of course Lee's attitude maybe was that, you know, me being a woman, what do you know about politics, you know. So I really do not recall what the comments were.
Mr. PREYER. When did you first learn that Lee wanted to leave the Soviet Union?
Mrs. PORTER. A few months after we were married. I do not recall exact month. It could be May or June, June probably, more likely.
Mr. PREYER. And I believe you testified that you were surprised at that.
When you left Russia, did you expect to return to Russia?
Mrs. PORTER. No; I burned all my bridges behind me.
Mr. PREYER. So that you did not expect that you would return either with Lee or alone.
Mrs. PORTER. No.
Mr. PREYER. What was the reaction of your family to your leaving the Soviet Union?
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Mrs. PORTER. Well, they were very, very upset for me making decision of leaving country. My uncle was worried about welfare of his family, and he was even afraid that he might lose his job on that account, being related to me.
Mr. PREYER. When you arrived in New York from the Soviet Union, did Lee bring his rifle with him?
Mrs. PORTER. I don't remember. I don't think it can go through the customs with the rifle.
Mr. PREYER. You did go through the customs in New York?
Mrs. PORTER. Yes.
Mr. PREYER. And as far as you know, no rifle was found, no comment was made about a rifle at that time.
Mrs. PORTER. Not that I know of.
Mr. PREYER. Did Lee seem pleased to be back in the United States?
Mrs. PORTER. I think so. He was a little bit disappointed when no reporters show up to greet him at the airport, because he told me there is going to be a whole bunch of them.
Mr. PREYER. Before you left Russia, did Lee say where you would be going in the United States?
Mrs. PORTER. Yes; he said that he has a brother living in Texas, in Dallas, or Fort Worth.
Mr. PREYER. Was that why you were going to Texas---
Mrs. PORTER. Yes, sir.
Mr. PREYER [continuing]. Because of his relatives living there?
Mrs. PORTER. Yes.
Mr. PREYER. Did he mention any other place in the United States where he might like to live?
Mrs. PORTER. Oh, he also told me he has relatives in New Orleans. We might live there sometime.
Mr. PREYER. When you arrived in Texas, who met you at the airport?
Mrs. PORTER. Robert Oswald and his family.
Mr. PREYER. Did you meet any of Lee's friends in Fort Worth, apart from his brother?
Mrs. PORTER. I don't recall. I don't think so.
Mr. PREYER. Where were you staying at Fort Worth?
Mrs. PORTER. We stayed for a while with his brother.
Mr. PREYER. While you were there, did any friends call Lee on the telephone?
Mrs. PORTER. Not that I know of.
Mr. PREYER. Do you recall whether he called anyone to say he was back in the United States?
Mrs. PORTER. Well, I did not speak English at the time, so if he used the phone, if somebody called for somebody, I wouldn't know about that, unless he told me.
Mr. PREYER. At that time you and Lee conversed, discussed only in Russian?
Mrs. PORTER. Yes.
Mr. PREYER. At this time when he first returned in Texas, did he talk about politics or did he mention President Kennedy again at any time?
Mrs. PORTER. Off and on, but it was always complimentary, something good.
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Mr. PREYER. Did he talk in general about any other politicians or public figures in the United States at this time?
Mrs. PORTER. Not that I recall; no.
Mr. PREYER. Thank you.
I will yield at this time, Mr. Chairman, to Mr. McDonald for the next area of questions.
Mr. FAUNTROY. Mr. McDonald.
Mr. McDONALD. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mrs. Porter, I would just like to backtrack for a couple of questions in the Russian phase of our questioning.
You mentioned earlier because of the way he was writing in English in a book that you might have suspected perhaps he was a spy or something of that nature.
Did he ever act suspiciously in any other way? In other words, did he ever go out at night and meet individuals unknown to yourself, did he act in any other suspicious manner?
Mrs. PORTER. No. It is customary in Russia to go for a walk after dinner, and if I want to, I can go along, or he might go visit some friends, and I took his word for it. If he said he goes see Pavel for a while, that is just fine with me.
Mr. McDONALD. Mrs. Porter, did you and your husband have any Cuban friends in Minsk?
Mrs. PORTER. Not friends, but I think Lee met some Cuban students that were going to university in Minsk.
Mr. McDONALD. Do you recall their names?
Mrs. PORTER. I do believe he mentioned some names, but I do not recall them at all.
Mr. McDONALD. And how well did you know them?
Mrs. PORTER. I did not know them at all.
Mr. McDONALD. How well did your husband know them?
Mrs. PORTER. Oh, they might just walk in the street and talk about something, that is what he said.
Mr. McDONALD. You say they came over to your apartment?
Mrs. PORTER. No.
Mr. McDONALD. Did they ever?
Mrs. PORTER. Not that I recall.
Mr. McDONALD. Do you know how often Lee met with them?
Mrs. PORTER. No, I don't.
Mr. McDONALD. You say they were students at the university?
Mrs. PORTER. Yes.
Mr. McDONALD. And Lee worked in a radio plant?
Mrs. PORTER. Yes.
Mr. McDONALD. How did they come to meet?
Mrs. PORTER. Well, the city is not that big. Its population is only one-half million people, and it had a main street where people meet sometimes, you know, for a cup of coffee, in the square or a park or something like that.
Mr. McDONALD. Did Lee tell you that he had met some Cuban students?
Mrs. PORTER. I think he did.
Mr. McDONALD. How did he say? What did he say?
Mrs. PORTER. Well, please do forgive me for saying I do not remember, but it was 15 years ago. It was a long time ago. I do not remember the details, really, right now.
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Mr. McDONALD. Can you recall the first time he mentioned meeting some Cuban students, whether he seemed pleased by the fact that he had met some?
Mrs. PORTER. Well, he would make comment, for example, like, well, "I did not like Russian winter. So that those Cuban students, they are freezing too," you know, or maybe mention that they weren't very happy to study there. They had been sent by government. They don't have the freedom that they used to in their own homeland.
Mr. McDONALD. At this time did he speak of Cuba? Did Lee speak of Cuba in favorable terms? Did he talk about Cuba at all?
Mrs. PORTER. Yes.
Mr. McDONALD. What did he say?
Mrs. PORTER. He did like Fidel Castro, and at the time so did I, because he was presented to Russian public as a very good fellow. So at the time all Soviets, I mean all young people were curious about new government in Cuba and how they will do it, and so he was very appealing at the time.
Mr. McDONALD. What did Lee say about Fidel?
Mrs. PORTER. He said that he did like him as a leader very well.
Mr. McDONALD. Do you know how often, after Lee met the Cuban students, do you recall whether he met with them frequently or met with them at all?
Mrs. PORTER. Let's assume maybe once a week, sometime. Maybe he doesn't see them for 2 weeks and stumble over or maybe they have special date and they go to the movie or whatever.
Mr. McDONALD. Where were they meeting, do you know?
Mrs. PORTER. Usually in the street or in the park somewhere, or main street.
Mr. McDONALD. Do you know in what language they were speaking?
Mrs. PORTER. Well, I really don't know how did they communicate. It never occurred to me. Maybe the students spoke English.
Mr. McDONALD. Is it your testimony---
Mrs. PORTER. Lee did not speak Spanish, as far as I know, so I assume maybe they spoke English. I hate to speculate on that.
Mr. McDONALD. Just so we are clear on the point--
Mrs. PORTER. Yes.
Mr. McDONALD [continuing]. Did you ever meet the Cuban students?
Mrs. PORTER. No, so I do not know how they communicate with each other.
Mr. McDONALD. And over how long a period of time did Lee meet with these students?
Mrs. PORTER. Maybe a few months.
Mr. McDONALD. And your testimony is that as far as you know, they met maybe once a week?
Mrs. PORTER. I assume because when Lee left, he said he going to see somebody, and he stumble over them or see them, maybe sometime he tell me and sometime he does not, so I do not know.
Mr. McDONALD. During this time in the Soviet Union, did Lee Harvey Oswald ever demonstrate any violent tendencies, any antisocial tendencies, either to you personally or in general?
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Mrs. PORTER. Well, he would lose temper a few times, but he was pretty good at controlling it. You know naturally during the marriage husband and wife do fuss sometimes.
Mr. McDONALD. But it is your testimony that his behavior was not----
Mrs. PORTER. He wasn't really violent, no.
Mr. McDONALD. And you are saying not out of the ordinary?
Mrs. PORTER. Pardon me?
Mr. McDONALD. Nothing unusual about---
Mrs. PORTER. No.
Mr. McDONALD [continuing]. His behavior at that time.
Mrs. PORTER. No.
Mr. McDONALD. Mrs. Porter, going back again to your first few days and weeks in Texas in 1962, when did you first--this may not apply just to them--when did you first learn about Oswald's mother, Marguerite?
Mrs. PORTER. I learned about her in Soviet Union, because Lee was corresponding with her.
Mr. McDONALD. I am sorry, I didn't---
Mrs. PORTER. After we were married, Lee and his mother correspond with each other.
Mr. McDONALD. And you were not aware of her before you got married?
Mrs. PORTER. No.
Mr. McDONALD. And what was your reaction when Lee told you that his mother was in fact alive?
Mrs. PORTER. What was my reaction?
Well, I really didn't have any reaction. It is wonderful that he had a mother.
Mr. McDONALD. Except wasn't there a point when he completely covered up the fact that he had a mother?
Mrs. PORTER. Well, I really do not recall what my reaction was at the time.
Mr. McDONALD. Did you think him to be devious at that time? In other words, you found out after you got married that his mother was alive and he never mentioned her beforehand to you?
Mrs. PORTER. Well, it was kind of strange, you know, behavior, really.
Mr. McDONALD. When did you first meet her?
Mrs. PORTER. After we arrived at Fort Worth. When, you said?
Mr. McDONALD. Yes, when.
Mrs. PORTER. In June I believe of 1962.
Mr. McDONALD. And was Lee present?
Mrs. PORTER. I don't recall the circumstances of the meeting.
Mr. McDONALD. Did you know George DeMohrenschildt?
Mrs. PORTER. Did I know him? Yes.
Mr. McDONALD. How did you know him?
Mrs. PORTER. He was one of Russian friends that we have right here, Russian emigrants.
Mr. McDONALD. When did you first meet him?
Mrs. PORTER. I do believe in 1962 shortly after arrival to United States.
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Mr. McDONALD. And what were the circumstances of your first meeting with George DeMohrenschildt? First of all, where were you?
Mrs. PORTER. I assume right now, as I remember right now, I think we have been invited for lunch or dinner at some Russian friends' house and lots of Russian people did come, and that is how we met.
Mr. McDONALD. Do you recall whose home you were visiting?
Mrs. PORTER. I do believe Anna Miller.
Mr. McDONALD. Anna Miller?
Mrs. PORTER. Anna Miller. That is how I remember right now as I met George DeMohrenschildt. Maybe I met him, maybe he came to our house. I do not recall right now exactly.
Mr. McDONALD. Do you recall on the first occasion you met him, was his wife present with him?
Mrs. PORTER. I don't remember.
Mr. McDONALD. Was Lee present when you met?
Mrs. PORTER. Probably was.
Mr. McDONALD. Was that also the first time that Lee ever met DeMohrenschildt?
Mrs. PORTER. I don't remember really if we met him together or he met him previously. I do not recall right now at all.
Mr. McDONALD. What did Lee say about George DeMohrenschildt?
Mrs. PORTER. He did like him very much. So did I.
Mr. McDONALD. Did he like him from the first time you met him? In other words, in remembering back, did it appear that the first time you met him was the first time Lee had met him as well?
Mrs. PORTER. I don't remember how we met him, together or somehow separate, but I know for a fact we both liked the man very well.
Mr. McDONALD. What did Lee say about him?
Mrs. PORTER. Good fellow, George, I guess.
Mr. McDONALD. Why did Lee like him so much?
Mrs. PORTER. Well, most people who knew George, liked him. He has a very vivacious personality, always cheerful and joking. He was very pleasant to be around.
Mr. McDONALD. Did he like Lee?
Mrs. PORTER. Well, I assume at the time that he did.
Mr. McDONALD. When they spoke, did they speak in Russian or in English?
Mrs. PORTER. In Russian and English both.
Mr. McDONALD. Did Lee and DeMohrenschildt ever talk politics in your presence?
Mrs. PORTER. They probably have.
Mr. McDONALD. Can you recall any such conversations?
Mrs. PORTER. No.
Mr. McDONALD. Can you recall in your presence whether George DeMohrenschildt and Lee ever spoke about President Kennedy?
Mrs. PORTER. If I say right now that, yes, I do, they probably talked about, and then you ask me about the details which I cannot remember, but, yes, the name John Kennedy was mentioned in their conversation.
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Mr. McDONALD. Can you recall in what context? In other words, were they speaking favorably of Kennedy?
Mrs. PORTER. I think so. Well, I recall that George DeMohrenschildt told me once that when he was younger, I mean he knew Jackie Kennedy before she was married to John Kennedy when she was a young lady and spoke very nicely about her.
Mr. McDONALD. And how about Lee's views at the time? Do you recall whether they were ever engaged in argument?
Mrs. PORTER. I do not recall ever hearing Lee talking badly about John Kennedy or Kennedy family.
Mr. McDONALD. In some of these discussions Lee had with DeMohrenschildt----
Well, do you recall what DeMohrenschildt's opinion of the Soviet Union was?
Mrs. PORTER. Well, George DeMohrenschildt always joked a lot, and you really don't know if that was his real opinion or just a joke, so, of course, he was curious how things changed since he--I mean I didn't really know if he was living there or was born there. I do not remember, but he was curious about life in Soviet Union; Yes'
Mr. McDONALD. After Lee got back to the United States, what was his opinion then of the Soviet Union?
Mrs. PORTER. After he come back to United States?
Well, he was very glad that he was back home, at least at the beginning. I do not recall him saying that he was sorry he left Soviet Union.
Mr. McDONALD. Do you recall that he was sorry or that he was not sorry that he left?
Mrs. PORTER. He was not sorry.
Mr. McDONALD. When Lee first got to Fort Worth, you first went there when you went back to Texas, was he contacted by the FBI?
Mrs. PORTER. That is what he told me, that the gentleman who wanted to talk to him, came along, was FBI agent. That is what he told me.
Mr. McDONALD. When did he tell you about this?
Mrs. PORTER. After living with Robert for a while we moved in our home and Lee on the job and one afternoon some gentleman came knocking on the door.
Mr. McDONALD. This is Robert Oswald, his brother?
Mrs. PORTER. Yes.
Mr. McDONALD. You are saying living with Robert?
Mrs. PORTER. Oh, yes, and Lee went outside and talk with this man, and when he come back, he told me that it was the FBI who were bugging him, asking questions about the Soviet Union, things like that.
Mr. McDONALD. What was Lee's reaction? How did he appear to you when he came back in?
Mrs. PORTER. Well, he was very knot up--quite angry about it. He told me that it would be very difficult for him to find a job or keep a job if they keep bugging him.
Mr. McDONALD. How many agents came to the house?
Mrs. PORTER. I do not really recall. Maybe one or two.
Mr. McDONALD. You were home at the time? You were there?
Mrs. PORTER. Yes, I was busy in the kitchen.
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Mr. McDONALD. Did they come to the door and ring the doorbell or knock?
Mrs. PORTER. I don't recall right now. They probably have.
Mr. McDONALD. Were they requested to come inside or did they ask to speak to Lee outside?
Mrs. PORTER. I do not know what they said, because I do not speak English, so whose initiative it was about going outside or speaking in the house, I do not know.
Mr. McDONALD. And where did they speak?
Mrs. PORTER. Outside.
Mr. McDONALD. In a driveway, a sidewalk, front yard?
Mrs. PORTER. On the sidewalk, I believe.
Mr. McDONALD. And about how long did this meeting take place?
Mrs. PORTER. It was quite long time. I assume by now maybe 30 or 40 minutes, maybe an hour.
Mr. McDONALD. You subsequently moved out of Robert Oswald's house to an apartment on West Seventh Street in Fort Worth?
Mrs. PORTER. Well, I don't remember the address, but you do about it, more than I do.
Mr. McDONALD. Yes, and did Lee's mother live with you at that time?
Mrs. PORTER. I do believe after Robert, we move with his mother.
Mr. McDONALD. Did you have any visitors when you lived in this apartment with his mother?
Mrs. PORTER. I don't remember. I don't think so.
Mr. McDONALD. Did Lee Oswald's personality---
What was his personality like upon getting back to the United States, comparing it with as you knew him in the Soviet Union?
Mrs. PORTER. Well, he had a hard time to find a job at the beginning, and little by little he became a little bit more sour.
Mr. HAMILTON. Mr. Chairman, could we break for 5 minutes, please?
Chairman STOKES. We certainly may take a 5-minute recess at this time.
Everyone is requested to remain seated until the witness has left the hearing room.
[Recess.]
Chairman STOKES. The committee will come to order. Everyone is requested to please take their seats.
Mr. McDonald.
Mr. McDONALD. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mrs. Porter, the last question I asked you was, did you notice any changes in personality, a change in Lee, once you got back in the United States, comparing him as to how you knew him in the Soviet Union?
Mrs. PORTER. Well, little by little he became gloomier, or disillusioned.
Mr. McDONALD. Gloomier. And do you know why?
Mrs. PORTER. At the time I assume because it was like holding a job or finding a job that he liked to do. It seemed to me that he was with the time passing, he was dissatisfied with the job that he was holding.
Mr. McDONALD. He got a job in Fort Worth; is that correct?
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Mrs. PORTER. Yes, sir.
Mr. McDONALD. And where was that job?
Mrs. PORTER. I do not really know the name of the firm he work for.
Mr. McDONALD. What was he doing?
Mrs. PORTER. It was some kind of mechanical job.
Mr. McDONALD. It was within walking distance of where you lived?
Mrs. PORTER. I think so.
Mr. McDONALD. Did he ever discuss his job, this job, with you?
Mrs. PORTER. Only thing he said, that he did not like it very much.
Mr. McDONALD. Did not like it?
Mrs. PORTER. Yes.
Mr. McDONALD. During this time when you lived in Fort Worth, or any time for that matter within the first month or so after you got back from the Soviet Union, did you ever have occasion to meet any of Lee's friends, friends from Texas?
Mrs. PORTER. No. We met a few Russian people, and they were our friends at the time we lived there.
Mr. McDONALD. How about non*Russian people?
Mrs. PORTER. No.
Mr. McDONALD. Did Lee ever talk about friends or associates that he had in Texas before he went to Russia?
Mrs. PORTER. No.
Mr. McDONALD. Never mentioned any?
Mrs. PORTER. Not to my knowledge right now. I don't recall any names, faces.
Mr. McDONALD. Did you ever have visitors at your apartment on West Seventh Street, the one that you shared with Marguerite?
Mrs. PORTER. Marguerite? No.
Mr. McDONALD. You had no visitors to the apartment?
Mrs. PORTER. I don't recall any visitors.
Mr. McDONALD. Did Lee read books often?
Mrs. PORTER. Yes.
Mr. McDONALD. Did he read a lot when he was in the Soviet Union?
Mrs. PORTER. Yes.
Mr. McDONALD. What kind of books did he read there?
Mrs. PORTER. Novels mostly.
Mr. McDONALD. What kind of novels?
Mrs. PORTER. What you call maybe as classical novels, some Russian classic writers.
Mr. McDONALD. The novels or the books that he read in the Soviet Union, were they in Russian?
Mrs. PORTER. They were in Russian; yes.
Mr. McDONALD. How about when he returned to Texas, did he continue his interest in reading?
Mrs. PORTER. Yes.
Mr. McDONALD. What kind of books was he reading when he returned?
Mrs. PORTER. Well, he has access to the library, and whatever books he brought, they were in the English language. I don't know
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the titles of them, but he brought some Russian books for me to read too.
Mr. McDONALD. Did he read any books of a political nature?
Mrs. PORTER. If he did, I do not know about.
Mr. McDONALD. Did Oswald talk about politics very much during this time in Fort Worth?
Mrs. PORTER. Lee really did not discuss politics with me. If I overheard some conversation with somebody else, just bits and pieces, I have to place them in my memory right now to give you the tone of the conversation.
Mr. McDONALD. Who did he talk politics with? You mentioned earlier George DeMohrenschildt.
Mrs. PORTER. Many were with George, about latest events in 'the newspapers, something like that, in that matter.
Mr. McDONALD. Up to this time, and we are only talking up to this time in Fort Worth, on your early arrival, had you ever heard Lee ever mention in discussion or did you ever overhear him talking with anyone about assassination as a political act?
Mrs. PORTER. No.
Mr. McDONALD. Did you ever hear him talk at all about assassination up to this point?
Mrs. PORTER. No.
Mr. McDONALD. What was Lee's relationship with the Soviet-excuse me--the Russian group of individuals in the Dallas-Fort Worth area? What was Lee's relationship with them?
Mrs. PORTER. It seemed to me at the beginning he was quite eager to meet Russian people living in Fort Worth or in Dallas, but little by little he felt like withdraw from it. He felt like they have too much influence on me, or I don't think that he felt very comfortable around.
Mr. McDONALD. Was it your understanding that he knew any of these individuals before he went to the Soviet Union?
Mrs. PORTER. No, I don't think he knew them before.
Mr. McDONALD. But he met them after he returned?
Mrs. PORTER. Yes.
Mr. McDONALD. Mrs. Porter, you testified earlier that when in Russia you recall that Lee owned a rifle.
Mrs. PORTER. Yes.
Mr. McDONALD. Or some kind of weapon.
Mrs. PORTER. Yes.
Mr. McDONALD. Do you remember whether it was a rifle as opposed to a shotgun?
Mrs. PORTER. What the difference between shotgun? Is it size or what?
Mr. McDONALD. It is a different kind of bullet or projectile that comes out.
Do you know the difference between a shotgun and a rifle?
Mrs. PORTER. No.
Mr. McDONALD. OK.
When do you first recall seeing Lee with a rifle in the United States?
Mrs. PORTER. I cannot pinpoint exact month, you know, date of any kind.
Mr. McDONALD. Where did you first see it?
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Mrs. PORTER. I do not remember where or when, but I can say that Lee did have a rifle during life in the United States.
Mr. McDONALD. Do you know whether it was the same rifle that he had in the Soviet Union?
Mrs. PORTER. Well, logically it cannot be, because you cannot go through the customs without declaring the rifle. I would not really know.
Mr. McDONALD. Mr. Chairman, let the record reflect that Mrs. Porter was unable to identify Lee Harvey Oswald's rifle, which was marked CE-139 before the Warren Commission. She was unable to identify it in 1964 when she testified before the Warren Commission, and consequently we will not show it to her today since such a showing would serve no useful purpose.
Mrs. PORTER. Thank you.
Mr. McDONALD. When you first saw the rifle in the United States, did you ask him what it was for?
Mrs. PORTER. I don't remember what I asked him about. I know I wasn't pleased of having a rifle in the house.
Mr. McDONALD. What did he say about it?
Mrs. PORTER. Well, in a matter of, that it's a manly thing to like or something like that. Most men do like to hunt or do like to play with the rifle.
Mr. McDONALD. Do you recall seeing him taking it out frequently from wherever he kept it, either to handle it or to clean it, to look at it, do whatever?
Mrs. PORTER. Yes, I did see him cleaning the rifle. That is true.
Mr. McDONALD. How often?
Mrs. PORTER. Maybe once a week.
Mr. McDONALD. Where did he keep this rifle?
Mrs. PORTER. In his closet.
Mr. McDONALD. When you refer to the "closet," what apartment are you referring to? At what apartment are we talking about?
Mrs. PORTER. I do not recall any apartment, but maybe one in Dallas.
Mr. McDONALD. The one on Neely Street?
Mrs. PORTER. Neely Street; yes.
Mr. McDONALD. And you say he kept it in the closet?
Mrs. PORTER. Yes, because in New Orleans he had the rifle, the same rifle, and he kept it in the closet there too. Every apartment has a closet.
Mr. McDONALD. Did you notice any change in his personality after he obtained this rifle?
Mrs. PORTER. Well, Lee liked to be alone by himself quite often. That was a part of his personality, so that wasn't really anything new. But his behavior pattern toward me changed. He was very annoyed by me. It seemed like I felt out of place.
Mr. McDONALD. Did you ever see him--you said that you would see him taking it out and cleaning it.
Did you ever see him while he was in the apartment pick up the rifle and to aim it like he would be practicing shooting?
Mrs. PORTER. He would do that in New Orleans in apartment, you know the screened porch. He would sit there in the dark with it.
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Mr. McDONALD. He would sit in a chair; and he would bring it up to his shoulder?
Mrs. PORTER. I don't know what he was sitting on, but I knew it was in front of his face or whatever.
Mr. McDONALD. Do you recall when you first saw this rifle in Texas, whether it had a scope on it?
Mrs. PORTER. I would not remember that at all.
Mr. McDONALD. Do you know what a scope is?
Mrs. PORTER. Well, I learned later, since all this happened, what a scope is. I don't know that much about rifles, nothing at all, really.
Mr. McDONALD. Thinking back, can you recall whether the rifle had a scope on it? It would be attached to the rifle. Can you recall?
Mrs. PORTER. No, I don't.
Mr. McDONALD. When did you learn the difference between rifles with and without scopes?
Mrs. PORTER. I really did not learn the difference. I just know what the scope more or less is right now, that it is attachment that make target more visible.
Mr. McDONALD. But did you know then what a scope was?
Mrs. PORTER. No.
Mr. McDONALD. Did he keep, did Oswald keep, ammunition, cartridges around the apartment?
Mrs. PORTER. He kept rifle and I guess ammunition, what you call, all together, and I wasn't fascinated by rifles, so I never took any interest to look at it or see what it looks like, so I just simply ignored it most of the time.
Mr. McDONALD. Do you recall these times when he had the rifle out whether---
You say in New Orleans he would sit on the screened porch?
Mrs. PORTER. Yes.
Mr. McDONALD. And we are referring to the Magazine Street apartment?
Mrs. PORTER. Yes.
Mr. McDONALD. Do you remember what he would do? I mean you say you don't know whether he was sitting. Is that your testimony?
Mrs. PORTER. Well, it was usually after dark, so if I go over there, you know, just see that he is there, and I come back in the apartment, so I just knew he was there with the rifle. He always, most of the time, he said "Just leave me alone," you know. That is what I will do.
Mr. McDONALD. Can you recall overhearing the sound of Lee handling the rifle? In other words, do you recall when he would be sitting on the porch, do you recall loud sounds of what would be moving the bolt or the action on the rifle?
Mrs. PORTER. I do not recall right now.
Mr. McDONALD. If you think about it for a minute, do you recall that kind of sound, the sound of metal on metal, sort of a clacking sound?
Mrs. PORTER. Not that I remember it; no.
Mr. McDONALD. Did you ever see him move the action of the rifle?
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Mrs. PORTER. I told you I did not pay attention to what he was doing that much, to give you the descriptions, if he changed the positions or was it any sounds, because I wasn't listening for it.
Mr. McDONALD. Do you know or do you remember any time when he would handle the rifle when it seemed like he would be shooting at something, an imaginary object?
Mrs. PORTER. No, I cannot.
Mr. McDONALD. Pulling the trigger?
Mrs. PORTER. No, I cannot tell you that. It seemed to me that most of the time he picked out the time to be with his rifle, when I was busy with something else. At the time I did not pay any attention. Whether it was deliberate or not, I do not know.
Mr. McDONALD. Did you ever handle the rifle? Did you ever hold it?
Mrs. PORTER. I might have touched it sometime to move the place if you clean the closet.
Mr. McDONALD. Did you ask him where he obtained this rifle?
Mrs. PORTER. No, I didn't.
Mr. McDONALD. Did he ever take it out, outside the apartment, to practice with it, to do anything with it?
Mrs. PORTER. Yes, he did.
Mr. McDONALD. And what did he do?
Mrs. PORTER. He will, like before it gets very dark outside, he would leave apartment dressed with the dark raincoat, even though it was a hot summer night, pretty hot weather anyway, and he would be wearing this, and he would be hiding the rifle underneath his raincoat. He said he is going to target practice or something like that.
Mr. McDONALD. This was one occasion you are talking about with the raincoat?
Mrs. PORTER. It is several occasions, maybe more than once.
Mr. McDONALD. He did the same thing on several occasions, put the raincoat on?
Mrs. PORTER. Yes.
Mr. McDONALD. And the rifle under the raincoat?
Mrs. PORTER. Yes.
Mr. McDONALD. And how long would he be gone?
Mrs. PORTER. A few hours.
Mr. McDONALD. And what did he say as he was going out to do this? Did he have any specific comment? Did he tell you any reason?
Mrs. PORTER. Well, he said that it is a practice range somewhere apparently. That is the purpose of him taking the rifle, in order to practice.
Mr. McDONALD. Mrs. Porter, let me direct your attention to approximately April 10, 1963. April 10 is the day that Lee Harvey Oswald allegedly shot at Gen. Edward Walker in Dallas.
Before I get to that specific question, let me ask you one further one, in general about the rifle, and that is you say on occasion he went out to practice wearing the raincoat.
Do you know how he got to the area that he was going to practice shooting the rifle?
Mrs. PORTER. He told me by the bus, so I thought it was kind of a little, would be suspicious for the people in the bus to see him
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wearing the raincoat, you know, well, but that is what he told me, that he took a bus.
Mr. McDONALD. When he put this raincoat on and had the rifle underneath, could you see this rifle? Could you see it?
Mrs. PORTER. The raincoat was quite long.
Mr. McDONALD. Below the knee? Did it come below the knee?
Mrs. PORTER. You could not see that it was a rifle. You would not spot it.
Mr. McDONALD. Going back to approximately April 10, in the week preceding the General Walker shooting, did you notice any change in Oswald's personality during that time? How was he acting?
Mrs. PORTER. Well, I cannot compare right now, you know, because it was long time ago, but his personality constantly was changing to the worst, really. He became more withdrawn and more hostile to everybody, maybe more short tempered.
Mr. McDONALD. During the week preceding April 10----
Mrs. PORTER. Well, he will spend lots of time alone in this closet that he converted into a little kind of office and he would shut the door and would do some more writing somewhat, and he asked me not to disturb him.
Mr. McDONALD. Directing your attention to that day, April 10, 1963, would you tell us what happened?
Mrs. PORTER. Well, I cannot remember the timing all the very vivid details of day. I just can state it that that particular night he did not come home until very late, and when he did not come home at regular time, I was worried about him. So I found a note addressed to me what to do in case if he did not come home. Of course I was petrified. Nobody I can turn to. But then later that night when he came home, I asked him to explain. He was out of breath and he was pale, and asked him to explain this note, and he said that "I just shot General Walker." So I was very upset and enraged about that, and we had an argument over it.
Mr. McDONALD. Just a second, Mrs. Porter. Let's wait. [Air raid siren.]
Chairman STOKES. This reminds us of the customary test every Wednesday at 11 o'clock.
Mr. McDONALD. Just one minute.
Mrs. Porter, if you could speak up as best you can--
Mrs. PORTER. OK.
Mr. McDONALD [continuing]. So we can hear you. Before the siren, you were saying.----
Let me ask you the question so you can repeat the answer.
What happened when Lee came home on the night of April 10, 1963?
Mrs. PORTER. He was very pale, as I said, and he was out of breath, and I was asking, I mean asked him to explain about the note that he left for me, and asked him what happened, and he said that he just tried to shoot General Walker. I asked him who General Walker was. I mean how dare you to go and claim somebody's life, and he said "Well, what would you say if somebody got rid of Hitler at the right time? So if you don't know about General Walker, how can you speak up on his behalf?." Because he told me
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that he wasn't--just a minute. He said he was something equal to what he called him a fascist. That was his description.
Mr. McDONALD. Did he turn on the television? Did he try to listen?
Mrs. PORTER. We did not have television. He turned the radio on later on, listened for the news, and it wasn't, nothing on.
Mr. McDONALD. You say he was pale?
Mrs. PORTER. Yes.
Mr. McDONALD. Did he appear nervous or distraught?
Mrs. PORTER. I don't know what "distraught" mean?
Mr. McDONALD. Well, other than being pale in color, did he give, did he have any other characteristics, physical characteristics? Did he seem to be shaking or extremely nervous?
Mrs. PORTER. Yes, he was extremely nervous; yes. Then when he heard the news that General Walker wasn't killed, you know, he was kind of angry that he missed it.
Mr. McDONALD. You say he returned late that evening.
Do you recall seeing him go out that morning, the morning of April 10?
Mrs. PORTER. I don't remember. I probably have.
Mr. McDONALD. But it is your testimony he did not come home after work, before going out to try to shoot General Walker.
Mrs. PORTER. I really do not remember right now. He might, didn't come from work, or maybe he left and come back later.
Mr. McDONALD. Do you recall seeing him leave the apartment with the rifle around April 107
Mrs. PORTER. I don't remember. I am sorry.
Mr. McDONALD. When he returned that evening, about what time did he get back?
Mrs. PORTER. I don't remember the time. Quite late.
Mr. McDONALD. Pardon?
Mrs. PORTER. Pardon me?
Mr. McDONALD. Was it early in the evening, late in the evening?
Mrs. PORTER. I assume it is very late in the evening.
Mr. McDONALD. Did he come in with the rifle?
Mrs. PORTER. No.
Mr. McDONALD. You specifically remember he did not have it?
Mrs. PORTER. Well, as I recall right now, I think a few days later, or the next day or 2 days later, he went and brought the rifle back in the house.
Mr. McDONALD. How did he bring it back? How did he carry it?
Mrs. PORTER. The same way he was taking it out, with the raincoat on.
Mr. McDONALD. With the raincoat?
Mrs. PORTER. Yes.
Mr. McDONALD. Is this the way he would normally take the rifle out of the Neely Street apartment, under the raincoat?
Mrs. PORTER. When he went as he said practice, target practice---
Mr. McDONALD. Yes?
Mrs. PORTER [continuing]. That usually was the procedure.
Mr. McDONALD. But concerning the General Walker incident, do you remember the night, that night, when he came in pale? When he came in, did he have the raincoat on?
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Mrs. PORTER. I don't remember. But as I recall right now, I think that he went and he hid the rifle somewhere else.
Mr. McDONALD. He told you this?
Mrs. PORTER. This is what I try to remember right now. I think that is what it was.
Mr. McDONALD. Did he seem pleased when he got home?
Mrs. PORTER. Pleased with what?
Mr. McDONALD. Pleased with what he had done?
Mrs. PORTER. No, he was just nervous and he was eager for listen to the news, but then he was disappointed.
Mr. McDONALD. Excuse me just a second.
Mrs. Porter, would you like a straight-back chair?
Mrs. PORTER. No, that is fine, all right.
Mr. McDONALD. You mentioned a note, he left you a note.
Mrs. PORTER. Yes.
Mr. McDONALD. Where was this note left?
Mrs. PORTER. I don't remember right now, but I think it could be in the closet, on the table there.
Mr. McDONALD. I am sorry?
Mrs. PORTER. Maybe it is in the closet above his shelf or something like that.
Mr. McDONALD. You found this note before he returned? Did you find it before he returned?
Mrs. PORTER. I think so.
Mr. McDONALD. And what did it say?
Mrs. PORTER. What for me to do in case if he did not come back home.
Mr. McDONALD. And what specifically did it say?
Mrs. PORTER. Well, it was a key to the mailbox, post office mailbox, I think. I really don't remember what the note exactly said right now.
Mr. McDONALD. Was it written in his handwriting?
Mrs. PORTER. Yes.
Mr. McDONALD. And what did you do with the note when he returned home?
Mrs. PORTER. I don't remember.
Mr. McDONALD. Is that note in existence now?
Mrs. PORTER. I don't know.
Mr. McDONALD. Did Lee have a notebook, a book that he used to keep writings in, regarding General Walker?
Mrs. PORTER. I think so.
Mr. McDONALD. What do you remember about it?
Mrs. PORTER. Well, at the time when he was spending lots of time alone in the closet, I thought that he is writing, you know. I don't know, whatever it was, but I learn about that, that was something to do with General Walker. I learned about that later.
Mr. McDONALD. How did you learn about it?
Mrs. PORTER. I don't remember.
Mr. MCDONALD. Did he tell you?
Mrs. PORTER. Could have been.
Mr. McDONALD. You learned about it soon after the Walker incident? You learned about the notebook shortly after the Walker incident?
Mrs. PORTER. Probably.
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Mr. McDONALD. So who else would be in a position to tell you what the notebook contained?
Mrs. PORTER. You--you probably have access to it.
Mr. McDONALD. No, no, I mean at that time.
Mrs. PORTER. Only Lee, yes, sir.
Mr. McDONALD. Do you recall if that notebook contained photographs?
Mrs. PORTER. I think so.
Mr. McDONALD. What did those photographs depict?
Mrs. PORTER. Well, I remember now it looked like some kind of a house or a road or something like that of that nature, and if 1 asked him what it was, he said that is General Walker's house.
Mr. McDONALD. And were these photographs attached to a piece of paper, I mean a page of the notebook itself?.
Mrs. PORTER. I don't remember right now.
Mr. McDONALD. What happened to that notebook?
Mrs. PORTER. I don't know.
Mr. McDONALD. Do you recall if Lee ever--
Mrs. PORTER. You mean now or then?
Mr. McDONALD. Then, what happened then? Did Lee do anything to the notebook?
Mrs. PORTER. Well, it is possibility that maybe it was destroyed.
Mr. McDONALD. Just 1 second.
Mrs. Porter, we are speaking now of the notebook that Lee kept on the General Walker shooting.
Mrs. PORTER. OK.
Mr. McDONALD. And you testified that he brought the rifle home a number of days after the incident.
Mrs. PORTER. Yes.
Mr. McDONALD. And you were aware of this notebook that he kept.
Mrs. PORTER. Well, I tried to recall in my memory how these things did happen, and by now maybe I assumed some things, so really I just know it as a fact that Lee did try to attempt on life of General Walker. He told me about that and that is the fact. Details of it, I do not remember. I don't want to mislead you different direction.
Mr. McDONALD. But do you recall Lee ever burning the pages of this notebook in the bathroom?
Mrs. PORTER. Well, afterwards, of course, I was petrified, you know, for what he did. I was afraid and--I was waiting for the police to knock on our door any minute, so I probably even myself would be eager to destroy any evidence that lead to arrest of Lee.
Mr. McDONALD. Do you remember him destroying this notebook?
Mrs. PORTER. I do not remember right now.
Mr. McDONALD. Did you contact---
Well, what was your reaction when he told you that he had attempted to shoot an individual with his rifle?
Mrs. PORTER. Well, all of a sudden I realized that it wasn't just a manly hobby of possessing the rifle. He might, he is capable of killing somebody with it. I was very disappointed to discover that trait of characteristic in my husband. I really didn't have much choice. I had no place to go. I wasn't approve of his actions; no.
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Mr. McDONALD. Did you tell any of your friends at the time what had happened?
Mrs. PORTER. No.
Mr. McDONALD. How about the police? Did you tell the police?
Mrs. PORTER. Well, I should have but I didn't.
Mr. McDONALD. Why didn't you?
Mrs. PORTER. Well, I guess whatever sense of loyalty was in me, I would not. I haven't done it, so.
Mr. McDONALD. Over the weeks--
Mrs. PORTER. I couldn't speak English anyway.
Mr. McDONALD. You could not speak English at the time?
Mrs. PORTER. No.
Mr. McDONALD. Over the weeks after the Walker incident, did Lee ever express any views, any confident views, that he attempted to do something and did not get caught? In other words, did he ever say anything that the authorities just couldn't catch him, that he was too smart, something to that effect?
Mrs. PORTER. Well, he made kind of a joking remark about, after listening to the news, that all, everybody kept looking for the car, and he said Americans did not realize some people do walk, you know, so he said he just ran, walked away or ran away from the scene.
Mr. McDONALD. Over the following days and weeks, did he often look in the newspaper for stories regarding this?
Mrs. PORTER. I think so. Lee bought newspaper every day anyway.
Mr. McDONALD. How often did he comment, did he talk to you, about this Walker shooting afterward?
Mrs. PORTER. Pardon me, would you please repeat the question?
Mr. McDONALD. Did he often talk about it afterwards, what he had done, what he had tried to do?
Mrs. PORTER. Well, occasionally. Not that much. He knew that I wasn't approve it, and I didn't want to talk about it or hear about it.
Mr. McDONALD. When he mentioned it to you, did he appear to be boasting, to be proud of what he had done?
Mrs. PORTER. Well, I think he was kind of pleased with himself, with the clever fellow he was and got away with it.
Mr. McDONALD. Did he make any comments that he was going to do it again to Walker?
Mrs. PORTER. I begged him not to try it again, just leave it as it is and lucky that nothing happened afterward.
Mr. McDONALD. And what did he say when you begged him not to do it?
Mrs. PORTER. Well, he gave his promise that he would not do it again.
Mr. McDONALD. In the weeks leading up to the Walker shooting, can you recall any incidents that were out of the ordinary, as far as Lee's behavior toward you?
Mrs. PORTER. Well, I don't recall right now.
Mr. McDONALD. Do you remember whether he met with any individuals? Did he tell you he was going out to meet with anyone?
Mrs. PORTER. No, he didn't.
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Mr. McDONALD. Would you tell us what happened when you and Lee first met with George DeMohrenschildt after the Walker incident?
Mrs. PORTER. Well, I heard George DeMohrenschildt making joking remark about how did you miss that, Lee? And so I look at Lee and I thought, gosh, did he tell him that, and he look at me because he thought that I told on him. So as I recall right now, I don't know how George find out or he guess or he just make joke about it.
Mr. McDONALD. Do you know---
There must have been some reason for DeMohrenschildt to guess at it, unless he was told.
Do you recall, in reflection on any of the conversations that they had, whether you heard the name "Walker" being mentioned?
Mrs. PORTER. I do not recall the details right now, so I cannot say who said what after what.
Mr. McDONALD. What did Lee say? Did he tell you that he told George DeMohrenschildt?
Mrs. PORTER. Well, I do not remember his answer.
Mr. McDONALD. Did you tell George DeMohrenschildt about the Walker incident?
Mrs. PORTER. I don't think so.
Mr. McDONALD. Would it have been likely that you might have or would have?
Mrs. PORTER. Well, I was very ashamed of the things what happened. That was something I don't think I would feel like discussing with someone.
Mr. McDONALD. Would George DeMohrenschildt be a person that you might have discussed it with?
Mrs. PORTER. I don't think so. I was very embarrassed of Lee trying to do something like that, so I don't remember what I did then.
Mr. McDONALD. Mrs. Porter, you moved to Dallas in the fall of 1962 to the Neely Street address?
Mrs. PORTER. Probably that's correct.
Mr. McDONALD. Do you recall, this was the time of the Cuban missile crisis in late October 1962?
Can you recall whether, and you have stated that you didn't have a television at the time--
Mrs. PORTER. NO.
Mr. McDONALD. Do you remember during this time period whether Lee was concerned with the Cuban missile crisis?
Mrs. PORTER. Yes, he was concerned and I was concerned too, because I would be caught in a position, I don't know, you know, in a war between America and Cuba, where would I belong, you know. I mean I was afraid of war.
Mr. McDONALD. What was Lee's view?
Mrs. PORTER. I really don't remember what he said about.
Mr. McDONALD. What did he say about Cuba at the time? Did he express any opinions about what the United States was doing regarding Cuba?
Mrs. PORTER. Well, he did not express that to me, at least not that I can recall, but I know that he was fond of Cuba and Fidel Castro.
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Mr. McDONALD. Can you recall, do you remember him listening on the radio to any speeches by President Kennedy during this time period?
Mrs. PORTER. Well, since we didn't have television, we had radio, he did listen to news, yes.
Mr. McDONALD. Can you recall specifically Lee listening to Kennedy on the radio, speaking about the Cuban missile crisis?
Mrs PORTER. Well, I did not understand English well enough. I just could spot Mr. Kennedy, I mean President Kennedy's voice maybe, but I did not know what he was talking about, and Lee didn't make very many comments, not one that 1 remember.
Mr. McDONALD. Can you recall any comments that he made about Kennedy at that time?
Mrs. PORTER. Not off hand.
Mr. McDONALD. Pardon?
Mrs. PORTER. Not off hand that I would remember that.
Mr. McDONALD. When you were living at the Neely Street address--
Excuse me just a second.
Mrs. Porter, when you were living at the Neely Street address, 214 Neely Street, Dallas, did you have any visitors?
Mrs. PORTER. At Neely Street?
Yes, we did have. George DeMohrenschildt did come over quite often, and some Russian people.
Mr. MCDONALD. Did you ever have visits by people unknown to yourself but only known to your husband?
Mrs. PORTER. No.
Mr. McDONALD. During this time at Neely Street, was his personality changing at all? I think you testified before that his personality, his demeanor, and his actions toward you----
Mrs. PORTER. Yes, that is correct.
Mr. McDONALD [continuing]. It got worse, progressively worse, after coming here to the United States.
Mrs. PORTER. Yes, and, well, it looked like he kept me just mostly in the house. He didn't want me to associate with anybody. We had lots of arguments at that period, yes.
Mr. McDONALD. At this time, in the spring of 1963, was he demonstrating to you any additional tendencies toward violence--
Mrs. PORTER. Yes.
Mr. McDONALD [continuing]. Other than the Walker shooting? Was he physically abusive toward you?
Mrs. PORTER. Well, right now in my mind I really don't know, I forgot which apartment was Neely Street and which one was on another street, so right now I am thinking about apartment before the Walker, so gradually his behavior did worsen.
Mr. McDONALD. Mr. Chairman, at this time it would be appropriate to take a brief recess until the other members get back, because we have a number of exhibits that we are going to show to Mrs. Porter.
Mr. FAUNTROY. All right, we will recess for 10 minutes.
Will everyone please remain seated, pursuant to the request made by the chairman at the outset of the meeting, while the witness is escorted from the room?
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[Recess.]
Chairman STOKES. The committee will come to order. All persons are requested to please take their seats. Mr. McDonald.
Mr. McDONALD. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mrs. Porter, I have got two exhibits to show you, if the clerk would procure them from the representatives of the National Archives.
We have two photographs to show you. They are Warren Commission Exhibits C-133-A and B, which have been given JFK Nos. F-378 and F-379. If the clerk would please hand them to you, and also if we could now have for display purposes JFK Exhibit F-179, which is a blowup of the two photographs placed in front of you.
Mrs. Porter, do you recognize the photographs placed in front of you?
Mrs. PORTER. Yes, I do.
Mr. McDONALD. And how do you recognize them?
Mrs. PORTER. That is the photograph that I made of Lee on his persistent request of taking a picture of him dressed like that with rifle.
Mr. McDONALD. Please tell us what happened? This was at the Neely Street address.
What happened on this occasion when Lee asked you to take those photographs?
Mrs. PORTER. Well, first of all, I refused to take picture because I did not know how to operate camera, and he told me, he insist that I will take it, and he said he will show me how, if I just push the button. So I took one picture, I think, and maybe he changed the pose, I don't recall. Maybe I took two pictures, but I was very annoyed by all the incidents.
Mr. McDONALD. Mrs. Porter, I would like you to take a look at JFK exhibit F-381, which if the clerk would obtain from the Archives representatives. It is an Imperial reflex camera. It has a Warren Commission number, but I don't have it in front of me 750, CE-750.
Does that camera look familiar, Mrs. Porter?
Mrs. PORTER. I seen this camera when you show me the last time.
Mr. McDONALD. Yes.
Mrs. PORTER. But I do not, I cannot identify it as it belongs to me.
Mr. McDONALD. What did he say to you regarding taking these photographs? How did he approach you?
Mrs. PORTER. Well, he told me that he wanted me to take a picture of him, and I said I do not know how, and when he came dressed with all this thing, I was making remarks like it is a funny way to take a picture and why you want to do it, and it looks like he has some kind of newspaper in his hand.
Mr. McDONALD. Now if you will look at the photographs as are displayed on the exhibit, he is wearing, he is holding a rifle and he has got a handgun in a holster attached to his belt.
Had you seen the handgun before, before you took the photograph?
Mrs. PORTER. I don't think so. Anyway I do not recall.
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Mr. McDONALD. Well, do you recall if this was the first time when you were taking the photograph that you had seen him, or that you had known that he owned both the rifle and a handgun?
Mrs. PORTER. R. It is possible.
Mr. McDONALD. Did Lee appear to be nervous at all when you took the photograph?
Mrs. PORTER. No. He was just angry with me because I refused. I was making fun of him.
Mr. McDONALD. Did you use a tripod at all?
Mrs. PORTER. Did I use what?
Mr. McDONALD. A tripod. In other words, was the camera attached to a stand?
Mrs. PORTER. No.
Mr. McDONALD. OK. You held it in your hands.
Mrs. PORTER. Yes.
Mr. McDONALD. Was anyone else around when you took the photograph?
Mrs. PORTER. It was quite embarrassing the way he was dressed, so I assume it was a weekend or maybe Sunday, because I recall the neighbors were gone.
Mr. McDONALD. The neighbors were gone?
Mrs. PORTER. I was grateful for that, yes.
Mr. McDONALD. He waited for that?
Mrs. PORTER. No, I was grateful for that.
Mr. McDONALD. How long did he stay outside when you were taking these photographs?
Mrs. PORTER. Not very long.
Mr. McDONALD. Before the session, before you started taking these photographs, what was he doing?
Mrs. PORTER. Well, he just show me which button to push, you know.
Mr. McDONALD. What I meant was, what was he doing in the house?
Mrs. PORTER. Well, I was busy doing something. Then he called me outside and he want me to do this picture taking.
Mr. McDONALD. After you finished taking the photographs, what happened?
Mrs. PORTER. Well, I went back to my whatever I was doing.
Mr. McDONALD. And what did he do?
Mrs. PORTER. I guess change his clothes, put all his ammunition back away.
Mr. McDONALD. You took these photographs in March of 1963; is that correct?
Mrs. PORTER. I don't recall the date, but it looked like a spring day.
Mr. McDONALD. After the photo session was over, did he put the rifle and the handgun away?
Mrs. PORTER. He probably did.
Mr. McDONALD. Can you recall? Did he go out afterward?
Mrs. PORTER. I don't remember.
Mr. McDONALD. This was in March, so it would have been prior to the General Walker incident.
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When he had these guns, the rifle in his hand, and you were taking the photograph, did he say anything to you about shooting anyone, political assassination, whatever?
Mrs. PORTER. No.
Mr. McDONALD. No comments at all like that?
Mrs. PORTER. No.
Mr. McDONALD. Now, Mrs. Porter, can you recall how many photographs you took, how many poses? What we have here are two, two poses.
Can you recall whether you took any others?
Mrs. PORTER. No, I don't.
Mr. McDONALD. You don't recall?
Mrs. PORTER. I don't recall.
Mr. McDONALD. OK.
Mrs. Porter, I am now going to show you a photograph which was not seen by the Warren Commission. For continuity purposes this committee has labeled it 133- C. We have up there A and B. We call it 133-C. It has no relation to the Warren Commission, since they did not see it.
We have also marked it as exhibit, JFK exhibit F-380.
If the clerk would please hand Mrs. Porter committee exhibit F-380, and if we could have displayed a photographic enlargement of it, marked JFK F-180.
Have you had a chance to look at that and compare it with the other two?
Mrs. PORTER. Pardon me?
Mr. McDONALD. Have you had a chance to look at it and compare?
Mrs. PORTER. Yes.
Mr. McDONALD. Have you ever seen that photograph before?
Mrs. PORTER. Well, I seen it in newspapers, and recently watching news I seen it, you know, on television as well.
Mr. McDONALD. So as you look in front of you, you have three photographs, each one with a slightly different pose.
Mrs. PORTER. Well, I never compared them before. Since you ask me, you know, I have to compare.
Mr. McDONALD. As you will see, A has him holding a gun, holding the rifle in his right hand--left hand, B, the rifle in the right hand, and then, C, in the left hand again, slightly to the front.
So with these to refresh your memory, can you say, can you recall if you took any additional pictures?
Mrs. PORTER. No, I cannot remember how many exactly. To me it looks like all of them. It looks like Lee.
Mr. McDONALD. That is correct.
Mrs. PORTER. That is the only thing I can say, but I do not remember how many pictures I was taking.
Mr. McDONALD. But since we have three in front of you, we know now that you at least took three; correct?
Mrs. PORTER. Yes.
Mr. McDONALD. Three different occasions?
Mrs. PORTER. I mean it was one occasion.
Mr. McDONALD. Right.
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Mrs. PORTER. But I could take three pictures, I could take two pictures. I cannot be definite about how many.
Mr. McDONALD. Let me ask you if you can remember, was there a pose? Did Lee pose holding the rifle over his head, in two hands?
Mrs. PORTER. I don't remember that at all.
Mr. McDONALD. Mrs. Porter, I want to show you now two additional photographs labeled JFK exhibits F--the one photograph with two numbers, F-183 is the face of the photograph depicting Lee Oswald, and F-184 is the back, which has some writing on it.
If the clerk would please hand this to Mrs. Porter, and if we would for demonstration purposes display JFK exhibits F-382 and F-383.
Mrs. Porter, if you will direct your attention to the reverse side, that is where my questions will be directed. The reverse side is displayed on the easel.
Have you had a chance to look at the reverse side? Do you see the phrase that is written in the upper right-hand--
Mrs. PORTER. Can I consult with my attorney?
Mr. McDONALD. Sure, please. [Witness consults with counsel.]
Mr. McDONALD. All set?
Directing your attention to the phrase which I have been told is Russian; is that correct?
Mrs. PORTER. Yes.
Mr. McDONALD. In the upper right-hand corner of the photograph on the back, do you recognize the handwriting?
Mrs. PORTER. No, I don't. That is what I was discussing with my lawyer. We tried to find out if that was written by me. I mean as I told him, that my handwriting does change a few times a day. I do not write same way, you know, in the morning and maybe at night, so it is hard for me to claim even my own handwriting, but you have certain way of writing, habit of writing certain letters, so I know for sure that I could not, I do not write certain letter that way. So at first I thought it was maybe my handwriting, but after I examine it, I know it is not.
Mr. McDONALD. Well, first of all, what does it say?
Mrs. PORTER. "For hunter of fascist, ha, ha, ha."
Mr. McDONALD. "Hunter of fascist"?
Mrs. PORTER. Yes.
Mr. McDONALD. "Ha, ha, ha."
Now if you will look closely, there is a possibility that if you look you will see the handwriting, the dark handwriting, it appears that someone might have wrote over the original handwriting. You can see underneath.
Mrs. PORTER. I can see something, right here that looks like have been erased and copied over.
Mr. McDONALD. Or possibly someone wrote over it just to bring out a light handwriting underneath.
But nevertheless, does any of that look like your handwriting?
Mrs. PORTER. Like mine?
Mr. McDONALD. Yes.
Mrs. PORTER. No.
Mr. McDONALD. Do you recall ever writing such a phrase on that photograph?
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Mrs. PORTER. No, but it would sound like me.
Mr. McDONALD. It sounds like you?
Mrs. PORTER. Yes, and at first, you know, I thought it look like my handwriting, but when I examine I do not, like letter "f," I do not print it that way, and "t." I am talking about Russian description, not English.
Mr. McDONALD. You are saying you don't print it that way now. How about in 196----
Mrs. PORTER. No, it wasn't habit.
Mr. McDONALD. So it sounds like something you would have written but you can't identify your handwriting.
Mrs. PORTER. When one letter is scratched underneath, I mean marked underneath, it is a sound in English like "s" and "h," "sha" sound. That is not necessary to put this marking on it, but it is typical of some Russians do.
Mr. McDONALD. Is it typical of the way you would have written then in 1963?
Mrs. PORTER. Pardon me?
Mr. McDONALD. Is that peculiarity---
Mrs. PORTER. Well, that would be typical for Russian to write it, but at the same time another letter---
Mr. McDONALD. Excuse me, just so everyone understands what letters we are talking about.
At this point I was referring to Ms. Jackie Hess who was pointing out the Russian letters. [Jackie, who is a staff member, speaks Russian.]
Mrs. PORTER. It is the third letter in the second word. "F A," and then another one that looks like--Yes?
Mr. McDONALD. She speaks Russian?
Mrs. PORTER. She does?
And "t," it is not necessary to put this mark underneath as well, but it is kind of habitual, not habitual. It is a habit of some Russians to do that. But this letter "ha," in the first word after "0," this is something like maybe foreigner would try to write it, you know, to copy Russian language.
Mr. McDONALD. Do you recall ever seeing this photograph with this writing on the back?
Mrs. PORTER. No.
Mr. McDONALD. It is your testimony you don't think that is your handwriting.
Mrs. PORTER. At first look I thought it was, but then I start examine it, I don't think it is my handwriting.
Mr. McDONALD. Now if you will look in the lower left-hand corner, it says "To my friend George. From Lee Oswald." And there is a date "5," then "IV/63."
Do you recognize that handwriting?
Mrs. PORTER. No.
Mr. McDONALD. Does it look like Lee Harvey Oswald's handwriting?
Mrs. PORTER. Well, I do not have much opportunity to compare his English handwriting to this photograph, but I cannot claim it was his handwriting. I am not expert on handwriting as far as English go.
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Do you have any other documents to compare his handwriting in English with this one? I mean that is up to experts.
Mr. McDONALD. Yes, I understand.
Well, did you see his handwriting in English very often?
Mrs. PORTER. Not very often, but I seen it. It was many years ago. I do not remember what his handwriting, but it wasn't big or sturdy, you know. He wrote with small letters.
Mr. McDONALD. When he wrote to you, if he wrote notes or whatever, did he write to you in Russian?
Mrs. PORTER. In Russian language, yes.
Mr. McDONALD. And how would he sign his name in Russian?
Mrs. PORTER. Alik.
Mr. McDONALD. Alik. So when you look at this handwriting in the photograph, is it your testimony that you are just not that familiar with his handwriting?
Mrs. PORTER. In English.
Mr. McDONALD. In English, I see.
Have you ever seen this photograph before?
Mrs. PORTER. This particular photograph?
Mr. McDONALD. Yes, the particular one with the writing on the back.
Mrs. PORTER. No.
Mr. McDONALD. Now in the lower right-hand corner it says "Copyright G. deM."
What does that notation mean to you?
Mrs. PORTER. Which one?
Mr. McDONALD. Where it says "Copyright."
Mrs. PORTER. I assume it was for some kind of book publications and somebody have a right in this photograph to claim it.
Mr. McDONALD. Have you ever seen that before--
Mrs. PORTER. No.
Mr. McDONALD [continuing]. That particular notation?
Mrs. PORTER, regarding all of the photographs, the different poses that we have seen, the photos you took of Lee, did you ever destroy any photograph of this nature?
Mrs. PORTER. Well, it have been brought to my attention just recently. Apparently I did. I forgot completely about it until somebody spoke about. I think I did.
Mr. McDONALD. And how many did you destroy?
Mrs. PORTER. I don't remember.
Mr. McDONALD. When did you do that?
Mrs. PORTER. After Lee was arrested.
Mr. McDONALD. Did anyone tell you to do this?
Mrs. PORTER. I don't remember. I think I was just afraid that it will be more evidence against Lee and could be against me too.
Mr. McDONALD. How did you destroy the photograph?
Mrs. PORTER. Well, I had been told I burned it. That is probably--
Mr. McDONALD. Do you remember doing that?
Mrs. PORTER. Very vaguely.
Mr. McDONALD. Was anyone with you when you did it?
Mrs. PORTER. I don't remember.
Mr. McDONALD. Do you know how many copies Lee had made of this photograph?
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Mrs. PORTER. No, I don't.
Mr. McDONALD. Do you know whether he had many duplicates made?
Mrs. PORTER. I don't know. I have no idea.
Mr. McDONALD. Do you know if Lee developed these by himself, at his place of employment?
Mrs. PORTER. I think once he worked somewhere, it was possible to do it at work, I believe. I really do not know if he developed himself or he send it for.
Mr. McDONALD. Mr. Chairman, at this time I would like to move to the committee record, photographic exhibits F-378, 379, 380, F-179, F-180, F-183, F-184, F-382, F-383, and F-381.
[JFK exhibit F-179 represents F-378 and F-379; JFK exhibit F-180 represents F-380; and JFK exhibits F-382 and F-383 are representative of F-183 and F-184 respectively.]
Chairman STOKES. Without objection, they may be entered into the record at this point.