Marina Oweald

Marina, Volume I page 1-126.

TESTIMONY OF MRS. LEE HARVEY OSWALD

The President's Commission met at 10:35 a.m. on February 3, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C.

Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Senator John Sherman Cooper, Representative Hale Boggs, Representative Gerald R. Ford, and Allen W. Dulles, members.

Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; John M. Thorne, attorney for Mrs. Lee Harvey Oswald; William D. Krimer and Leon I. Gopadze, interpreters.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, Mrs. Oswald, did you have a good trip here?

The Commission will come to order, and at this time, I will make a short statement for the purpose of the meeting. A copy of this statement has been given to counsel for Mrs. Oswald, but for the record, I should like to read it.

On November 29, 1963, President Lyndon B. Johnson issued Executive Order No. 11130 appointing a Commission "to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of the late President John F. Kennedy, and the subsequent violent death of the man charged with the assassination."

On December 13, 1963, Congress adopted Joint Resolution S.J. 137 which authorizes the Commission, or any member of the Commission or any agent or agency designated by the Commission for such purpose to administer oaths and affirmations, examine witnesses, and receive evidence.

Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chairman, excuse me, the interpreter----

The CHAIRMAN. I understood they have a copy and if they want to at the end he may do that.

On January 21, 1964, the Commission adopted a resolution authorizing each member of the Commission and its General Counsel, J. Lee Rankin, to administer oaths and affirmations, examine witnesses, and receive evidence concerning any matter under investigation by the Commission.

The purpose of this hearing is to take the testimony of Mrs. Marina Oswald, the widow of Lee Harvey Oswald who, prior to his death, was charged with the assassination of President Kennedy. Since the Commission is inquiring fully into the background of Lee Harvey Oswald and those associated with him, it is the intention of the Commission to ask Mrs. Marina Oswald questions concerning Lee Harvey Oswald and any and all matters relating to the assassination. The Commission also intends to ask Mrs. Marina Oswald questions relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mrs. Marina Oswald has been furnished with a copy of this statement and a copy of the rules adopted by the Commission for the taking of testimony or the production of evidence. Mrs. Marina Oswald has also been furnished with a copy of Executive Order No. 11130 and Congressional Resolution S.J. Res. 137 which set forth the general scope of the Commission's inquiry and its authority for the examining witnesses and the receiving of evidence.

Volume V page 387-408 1

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The CHAIRMAN. Mrs. Oswald, do you have an attorney, a lawyer?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. And your lawyer is Mr. Thorne?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. He is the only lawyer you wish to represent you here?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. And may I ask you, Mr. Thorne, if you have received a copy of this?

Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chairman, that is the copy he received there.

Mr. THORNE. I have read a copy of it, Mr. Chief Justice, yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Are there any questions about it?

Mr. THORNE. There are no questions.

The CHAIRMAN. Very well.

Very well, we will proceed to swear Mrs. Oswald as a witness.

Will you please rise, Mrs. Oswald.

(The Chairman administered the oath to the witness, Mrs. Oswald, through the interpreter.)

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Reporter, will you rise, please, and be sworn.

(The Chairman administered the oath to the interpreter and the stenotype reporter, following which all questions propounded to the witness and her answers thereto, were duly translated through the interpreter.)

The CHAIRMAN. Now, Mr. Thorne and Mrs. Oswald, I want to say to you that we want to see that Mrs. Oswald's rights are protected in every manner and you are entitled to converse with her at any time that you desire. You are entitled to give her any advice that you want, either openly or in private; if feel that her rights are not being protected you are entitled to object to the Commission and have a ruling upon it, and at the conclusion of her testimony if you have any questions that you would like to ask her in verification of what she has said you may feel free to ask them.

After her testimony has been completed, a copy will be furnished to you so that if there are any errors, corrections or omissions you may call it to our attention, is that satisfactory to you?

Mr. THORNE. Very satisfactory, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. I might say also to her we propose to ask her questions for about 1 hour, and then take a short recess for her refreshment, and then we will convene again until about 12:30. At 12:30 we will recess until 2 o'clock, and then we may take her to her hotel where she can see her baby and have a little rest, and we will return at 2 o'clock, and we will take evidence until about 4:30. If at any time otherwise you should feel tired or feel that you need a rest, you may feel free to say so and we will take care of it.

Mrs. OSWALD. Thank you.

The CHAIRMAN. The questions will be asked of you by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, who is the general counsel of the Commission.

I think now we are ready to proceed, are we not, Mr. Rankin?

Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, you be at your ease, and the interpreter will tell you what I ask and you take your time about your answers.

Will you state your name, please?

Mrs. OSWALD. Marina, my name is Marina Nikolaevna Oswald. My maiden name was Prussakova.

Mr. RANKIN. Where do you live, Mrs. Oswald?

Mrs. OSWALD. At the present time I live in Dallas.

Mr. RANKIN. And where in Dallas?

Mrs. OSWALD. Mr. Thorne knows my address.

Mr. THORNE. 11125 Ferrar Street, Dallas, Dallas County, Tex.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you live with friends there?

Mrs. OSWALD. I live with Mr. Jim Martin and his family.

Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, do you have a family?

Mrs. OSWALD. I have two children, two girls, June will be 2 years old in February, and Rachel is 3 months old.

Mr. RANKIN. Are you the widow of the late Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

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Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, did you write in Russian a story of your experiences in the United States?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I have. I think that you are familiar with it.

Mr. RANKIN. You furnished it to the Commission, did you not, or a copy of it?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Will you describe for the Commission how you prepared this document in Russian that you furnished to us?

Mrs. OSWALD. I wrote this document not specifically for this Commission, but merely for myself. Perhaps there are, therefore, not enough facts for your purpose in that document. This is the story of my life from the time I met him in Minsk up to the very last days.

Mr. RANKIN. And by "him" who did you mean?

Mrs. OSWALD. Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you have any assistance in preparing this document in Russian?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, no one.

Mr. RANKIN. Are all the statements in that document true insofar as you know?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Since your husband's death and even back to the time of the assassination of President Kennedy, you have had a number of interviews with people from the Secret Service and the FBI, have you not?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I did.

Volume V page 410-420

Mr. RANKIN. We have a record of more than 46 such interviews, and I assume you cannot remember the exact number or all that was said in those inter views, is that true?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know how many there were.

Mr. RANKIN. As far as you can recall now, do you know of anything that is not true in those interviews that you would like to correct or add to?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I would like to correct some things because not everything was true.

Mr. RANKIN. Will you tell us----

Mrs. OSWALD. It is not just that it wasn't true, but not quite exact.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall some of the information that you gave in those interviews that was incorrect that you would like to correct now? Will you tell us that?

Mrs. OSWALD. At the present time, I can't remember any specific instance, but perhaps in the course of your questioning if it comes up I will say so.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall the date that you arrived in the United States with your husband, Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mrs. OSWALD. On the 13th of June, 1962-- I am not quite certain as to the year--'61 or '62, I think '62.

Mr. RANKIN. How did you come to this country?

Mrs. OSWALD. From Moscow via Poland, Germany, and Holland we came to Amsterdam by train. And from Amsterdam to New York by ship, and New York to Dallas by air.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall the name of the ship on which you came?

Mrs. OSWALD. I think it was the SS Rotterdam but I am not sure.

Mr. RANKIN. What time of the day did you arrive in New York?

Mrs. OSWALD. It was---about noon or 1 p.m., thereabouts. It is hard to remember the exact time.

Mr. RANKIN. How long did you stay in New York at that time?

Mrs. OSWALD. We stayed that evening and the next 24 hours in a hotel in New York, and then we left the following day by air.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall the name of the hotel where you stayed?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know the name of the hotel but it is in the Times Square area, not far from the publishing offices of the New York Times.

Mr. RANKIN. What did you do during your stay in New York?

Mrs. OSWALD. That evening we just walked around the city to take a look at it. In the morning I remained in the hotel while Lee left in order to arrange for tickets, and so forth.

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Mr. RANKIN. Did you visit anyone or have visitors at your hotel during that period?

Mrs. OSWALD. We didn't have any visitors but I remember that with Lee we visited some kind of an office, on official business, perhaps it had something to do with immigration or with the tickets. Lee spoke to them in English and I didn't understand it.

Mr. RANKIN. Would that be a Travelers' Aid Bureau or Red Cross?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether or not you or your husband received any financial assistance for the trip to Texas at that time?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know exactly where Lee got the money, but he said that his brother Robert had given him the money. But the money for the trip from the Soviet Union to New York was given to us by the American Embassy in Moscow.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall what time of the day you left on the flight to Texas?

Mrs. OSWALD. I think that by about 5 p.m. we were already in Texas.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you go to Dallas or Fort Worth at that time?

Mrs. OSWALD. In Dallas we were met by the brother, Robert, he lived in Fort Worth, and he took us from Dallas to Fort Worth and we stopped at the house.

Mr. RANKIN. Who else stayed at Robert's house at that time besides your family?

Mrs. OSWALD. His family and no one else.

Mr. RANKIN. What did his family consist of at that time?

Mrs. OSWALD. He and his wife and two children, a boy and a girl.

Mr. RANKIN. How long did you stay at Robert's?

Mrs. OSWALD. About 1 to 1 1/2 months--perhaps longer, but no longer than 2 months.

Mr. RANKIN. Were your relations and your husband's with Robert pleasant at that time?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, they were very good. His brother's relationship to us was very good.

Mr. RANKIN. Would you briefly describe what you did during that time when you were at Robert's?

Mrs. OSWALD. The first time we got there we were, of course, resting for about a week, and I was busy, of course, with my little girl who was then very little. And in my free time, of course, I helped in the household.

Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband do anything around the house or did he seek work right away?

Mrs. OSWALD. For about a week he was merely talking and took a trip to the library. That is it.

Mr. RANKIN. Then did he seek work in Fort Worth?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. And when did he find his first job there?

Mrs. OSWALD. While we were with Robert. It seems it was at the end of the second month that Lee found work. But at this time I don't remember the date exactly but his mother who lived in Fort Worth at that time rented a room and she proposed that we spend some time with her, that we live with her for some time.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you discuss with your husband this proposal of your mother-in-law to have you live with her?

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, she made the proposal to my husband, not to me. Of course, I found out about it.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you and he have any discussion about it after you found out about it?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, of course.

Mr. RANKIN. You recall that discussion?

Mrs. OSWALD. No. I only remember the fact.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he find work after you left Robert's then?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. You did move to be with your mother-in-law, lived with her for a time?

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Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, about 3 weeks. And then after 3 weeks Lee did not want to live with her any more and he rented an apartment.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know the reason why he did not want to live there any more?

Mrs. OSWALD. It seemed peculiar to me and didn't want to believe it but he did not love his mother, she was not quite a normal woman. Now, I know this for sure.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you that at the time?

Mrs. OSWALD. He talked about it but since he spoke in English to his mother, I didn't understand it. There were quite a few scenes when he would return from work he didn't want to talk to her. Perhaps she thought I was the reason for the fact that Lee did not want to talk to her. And, of course, for a mother this is painful and I told him that he should be more attentive to his mother but he did not change. I think that one of the reasons for this was that she talked a great deal about how much she had done to enable Lee to return from Russia, and Lee felt that he had done most of---the greatest effort in that respect and didn't want to discuss it.

Mr. RANKIN. Where did he find work at that time?

Mrs. OSWALD. Of course, if I had been told now I would have remembered it because I have learned some English but at that time I didn't know, but Lee told me that it wasn't far from Mercedes Street where we lived, and it was really common labor connected with some kind of metal work, something for buildings.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he ever say whether he enjoyed that work?

Mrs. OSWALD. He didn't like it.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall how long he stayed at that job?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know but it seemed to me that he worked there for about 3 or 4 months. Perhaps longer. Dates are one of my problems.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether he left that job voluntarily or was discharged?

Mrs. OSWALD. He told me that he had been discharged but I don't know why.

Mr. RANKIN. When you left the mother-in-law's house where did you go?

Mrs. OSWALD. I have already said that we moved to Mercedes Street.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you have an apartment there?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, we rented an apartment in a duplex.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall the address on Mercedes Street?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, I don't remember the exact number.

Mr. RANKIN. Will you describe the apartment, how many rooms it had?

Mrs. OSWALD. Living room, kitchen, bath, and one bedroom.

Mr. RANKIN. This was the first time since you had come to this country then that you had an opportunity to have a home of your own, is that right?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, we had our own home in Russia.

Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband work a full day at that time on this job?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sometimes he even worked on Saturdays.

Mr. RANKIN. What did you do when he came home, did he help you with housework?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. He frequently went to a library. He read a great deal.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall any of the books that he read at that time?

Mrs. OSWALD. No. I only know that they were books more of a historical nature rather than fiction or literature.

Mr. RANKIN. In your story in Russian you relate the fact that he read a great deal of the time. Could you describe to the Commission just how that was? Did he go off by himself to read or how did he handle that?

Mrs. OSWALD. He would bring a book from a library, sit in the living room and read. I was busy with housework, and that is the way it happened.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you have differences between you about the time that he spent reading rather than devoting it to you or the other members of the family?

Mrs. OSWALD. No. We did have quarrels about his relationship to his mother, the fact that he didn't want to change his relationship to his mother. I know that he read so much that when we lived in New Orleans he used to read sometimes all night long and in order not to disturb me he would be sitting in the bathroom for several hours reading.

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Mr. RANKIN. Did your quarrels start at that time when you were at Mercedes Street the first time.

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, we didn't have many quarrels.

Mr. RANKIN. When you were at Mercedes Street did you have Robert visit you or did you visit him?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, he came to us sometimes.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall seeing any guns at Mercedes Street while you were there?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Did your mother-in-law come to see you at Mercedes Street?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Will you describe the relationship between your husband and your mother-in-law while he was at Mercedes Street?

Mrs. OSWALD. She did not want us to move away to Mercedes Street, and Lee did not want to remain with her and did not even want her to visit us after that. Lee did not want her to know the address to which we were moving and Robert helped us in the move. I felt very sorry for her. Sometime after that she visited us while Lee was at work and I was quite surprised wondering about how she found out our address. And then we had a quarrel because he said to me, "Why did you open the door for her, I don't want her to come here any more."

Mr. RANKIN. During this period did your husband spend much time with the baby, June?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. He loved children very much.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you obtain a television set at that time?

Mrs. OSWALD. Lee wanted to buy a television set on credit. He then returned it. Should I speak a little louder?

Mr. RANKIN. Did Robert help any with the money or just in guaranteeing the payments?

Mrs. OSWALD. I think that he only guaranteed the payments.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall how much the television set cost?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. So far as you know it was paid for out of your husband's income?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Were you still at Mercedes Street when he lost his job with the welding company?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he try to find another job in Fort Worth then?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know how much he looked for jobs before he found one then?

Mrs. OSWALD. He looked for work for some time but he could not find it and then some Russian friends of ours helped him find some work in Dallas.

Mr. RANKIN. How long was he out of work?

Mrs. OSWALD. It seems to me it was about 2 weeks; hard to remember, perhaps that long.

Mr. RANKIN. Where did he find work in Dallas, do you remember the name?

Mrs. OSWALD. I know it was some kind of a printing company which prepares photographs for newspapers.

Mr. RANKIN. Was he working with the photographic department of that company?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Was he an apprentice in that work trying to learn it?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, at first he was an apprentice and later he worked.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know what his income was when he was working for the welding company?

Mrs. OSWALD. I think it was about $200 a month, I don't know. I know it was a dollar and a quarter an hour.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he work much overtime at that time?

Mrs. OSWALD. Not too much but sometimes he did work Saturdays.

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Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall how much he received as pay at the printing company?

Mrs. OSWALD. A dollar forty an hour.

Mr. RANKIN. How many hours did he work a week, do you recall?

Mrs. OSWALD. He usually worked until 5 p.m. But sometimes he worked later, and on Saturdays, too.

Mr. RANKIN. The ordinary work week at that time was the 5-day week then, and the Saturdays would be an overtime period?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Who were the Russian friends who helped your husband find this job in Dallas?

Mrs. OSWALD. George Bouhe.

Mr. RANKIN. Did this friend and other Russian friends visit you at Mercedes Street?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. When we lived at Fort Worth we became acquainted with Peter Gregory, he is a Russian, he lives in Fort Worth and through him we became acquainted with others.

Mr. RANKIN. Will you tell us insofar as you recall, the friends that you knew in Fort Worth?

Mrs. OSWALD. Our first acquaintance was Gregory. Through him I met Gali Clark, Mrs. Elena Hall. That is all in Fort Worth. And then we met George Bouhe in Dallas, and Anna Meller, and Anna Ray and Katya Ford.

Mr. RANKIN. By your answer do you mean that some of those people you met in Dallas and some in Fort Worth?

Mrs. OSWALD. George De Mohrenschildt--this was both in Fort Worth and Dallas, the names of my recital but they were well acquainted with each other, even though some lived in Dallas and some lived in Fort Worth.

Mr. RANKIN. Will you please sort them out for us and tell us those you met in Dallas?

Mrs. OSWALD. You mean by the question, who out of these Russians lives in Dallas?

Mr. RANKIN. Or which ones you met in Dallas as distinguished from those you had already met in Fort Worth?

Mrs. OSWALD. In Fort Worth I met the people from Dallas. There was George Bouhe, George De Mohrenschildt---no. Anna Meller and George Bouhe only, they were from Dallas, but I met them in Fort Worth.

Mr. RANKIN Did these friends visit you at your home in Fort Worth?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sometimes they came to visit us when they were in Dallas, they came to us. Sometimes they made a special trip to come and see us.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever visit them in their homes?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, when we lived in Fort Worth we went to Dallas several times to visit them.

Mr. RANKIN. When you made these visits did you go to spend an evening or a considerable part of the time or were they short visits? Can you describe that?

Mrs. OSWALD. We used to come early in the morning and leave at night. We would spend the entire day with them. We went there by bus.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you have an automobile of your own at any time during this period?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Did any of these people have meals in your home when they visited you?

Mrs. OSWALD. No. They usually brought---they usually came for short visits and they brought their own favorite vegetables such as cucumbers, George liked cucumbers.

Mr. RANKIN. When you moved to Dallas, where did you live the first time?

Mrs. OSWALD. I did not move to Dallas together with Lee. Lee went to Dallas when he found the job, and I remained in Fort Worth and lived with Elena Hall.

Mr. RANKIN. For how long a period did you live with Mrs. Hall?

Mrs. OSWALD. I think that it was about a month and a half.

Mr. RANKIN. During that month and a half what did your husband do?

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Mrs. OSWALD. He had a job. He was working. He would call me up over the telephone but how he spent his time, I don't know.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know during that month and a half where he lived?

Mrs. OSWALD. At first, I know that he rented a room in the YMCA but very shortly thereafter he rented an apartment. But where I don't know.

Mr. RANKIN. During that month and a half did he come and see you and the baby?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, two or three times he came to see us because he had no car. It was not very easy.

Mr. RANKIN. Were these trips to see you on the weekends?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. When he came did he also stay at the Hall's?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. When you were staying at the Hall's did you pay them for your room and your meals?

Mrs. OSWALD. No. No, she was very friendly toward us and she tried to help us.

Mr. RANKIN. What did you and your husband do when he came to see you? Did he spend his time with you there in the home or did you go some place?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, we didn't go anywhere.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he do any reading there?

Mrs. OSWALD. No. I remember that it was only a couple of times that he came for a weekend. Generally, he only came for a very short period of time, because he would come together with our friends, and they could not stay very long.

Mr. RANKIN. When he came during that period did he discuss what he had been doing in Dallas, his work and other things?

Mrs. OSWALD. He liked his work very much.

Mr. RANKIN. After this month and a haft did he find a place for you all to live together?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, but it wasn't a problem there to find a place, no problem there to find a place.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you then move to a home in Dallas?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, on Elsbeth, Elsbeth Street in Dallas.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you remember the number?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. How did you move your things from Mrs. Hall's to the place on Elsbeth Street?

Mrs. OSWALD. A friend who had a car helped us---I don't remember his name, Taylor, Gary Taylor.

The CHAIRMAN. Suppose we take a recess now for about 10 minutes to allow Mrs. Oswald to refresh herself.

(Short recess.)

The CHAIRMAN. The Commission may be in order.

Mr. RANKIN. Did that require one or more trips to move your things from Fort Worth to Dallas when you went to Elsbeth Street?

Mrs. OSWALD. One trip was enough.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you observe any guns in your things when you moved?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. What kind of place did you have at Elsbeth Street, was it rooms or an apartment?

Mrs. OSWALD. An apartment.

Mr. RANKIN. How many rooms in the apartment?

Mrs. OSWALD. One living room, a bedroom, a kitchen, and the bathroom. It sounds very small for all of you but for us it was quite sufficient.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you have a telephone there?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall what rent you paid?

Mrs. OSWALD. It seems to me that it was $60, plus the utilities.

Mr. RANKIN. That would be $60 a month?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, and electricity and gas but the water was free. Sixty dollars a month including water.

Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband help you with the housework at that address?

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Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, he always helped.

Mr. RANKIN. What about his reading habits there, were they the same?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, about the same.

Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell us a little more fully about his reading? Did he spend several hours each evening in this reading?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall any of the books that he read at Elsbeth Street?

Mrs. OSWALD. No. He had two books, two thick books on the history of the United States.

Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband come home for a midday meal?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you go out in the evenings?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Where did you go?

Mrs. OSWALD. Sometimes we went shopping to stores, and movies, though Lee really went to the movies himself. He wanted to take me but I did not understand English. Then on weekends we would go to a lake not far away or to a park or to a cafe for some ice cream.

Mr. RANKIN. When you went to the lake or the park did you take food with you and have a picnic?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. How did you get to the lake or the park, by bus or car, or what means of transportation?

Mrs. OSWALD. It was only 10 minutes away, 10 minutes walking time from us.

Mr. RANKIN. Were either you or your husband taking any schooling at that time?

Mrs. OSWALD. Lee took English courses or typing courses.

Mr. RANKIN. During what days of the week were these typing courses?

Mrs. OSWALD. It was three days a week. I don't remember exactly what the days were. It seems to me it was 1 day at the beginning of the week and 2 days at the end of the week that he took these night courses.

Mr. RANKIN. Would it help you to recall if I suggested they were Monday, Tuesday, and Thursday?

Mrs. OSWALD. It seems to me that is the way it was. I know it was on Monday.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall what hours of the evening he was supposed to be at these classes?

Mrs. OSWALD. It seems that it was from 7 until 9.

Mr. RANKIN. About what time would he get home from work?

Mrs. OSWALD. About 5 to 5:30.

Mr. RANKIN. Then would you eat your evening meal?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. How soon after that would he leave for the class?

Mrs. OSWALD. When Lee took his courses he generally did not come home for dinner, usually he didn't.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he practice his typewriting at home at all?

Mrs. OSWALD. At home, no. But he had a book, a textbook on typing which he would review when he was at home.

Mr. RANKIN. How soon after the class was over did he come home ordinarily?

Mrs. OSWALD. Nine o'clock.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you anything about friends that he met at these classes?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. While you were at Elsbeth Street do you recall seeing any guns in your apartment?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you remember exhibiting any guns to the, De Mohrenschildt's while you were at Elsbeth Street?

Mrs. OSWALD. That was on Neely Street, perhaps you are confused, this was on Neely Street.

Mr. RANKIN. When did you move to Neely Street from the Elsbeth Street apartment?

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Mrs. OSWALD. In January after the new year. I don't remember exactly.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you remember why you moved from Elsbeth to Neely Street?

Mrs. OSWALD. I like it better on Neely Street. We had a porch there and that was more convenient for the child.

Mr. RANKIN. What size apartment did you have on Neely Street?

Mrs. OSWALD. The same type of apartment.

Mr. RANKIN. Was the only difference the terrace then?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, except that it was on the second floor. It was a second-floor apartment.

Mr. RANKIN. Was the Elsbeth Street apartment a first-floor apartment?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. What about the rent? Was there a difference in rent between the two places?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, it was the same rent. It is perhaps even less. It seems to me it was $55.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you have any differences with your husband while you were at Neely Street?

Mrs. OSWALD. No. Well, there are always some reasons for some quarrel between a husband and wife, not everything is always smooth.

Mr. RANKIN. I had in mind if there was any violence or any hitting of you. Did that occur at Neely Street?

Mrs. OSWALD. No. That was on Elsbeth Street.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall what brought that about?

Mrs. OSWALD. Not quite. I am trying to remember. It seems to me that it was at that time that Lee began to talk about his wanting to return to Russia. I did not want that and that is why we had quarrels.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you have discussions between you about this idea of returning to Russia?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. Lee wanted me to go to Russia. I told him that that--Lee wanted me to go to Russia, and I told him that if he wanted me to go then that meant that he didn't love me, and that in that case what was the idea of coming to the United States in the first place. Lee would say that it would be better for me if I went to Russia. I did not know why. I did not know what he had in mind. He said he loved me but that it would be better for me if I went to Russia, and what he had in mind I don't know.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know when he first started to talk about your going to Russia?

Mrs. OSWALD. On Elsbeth Street.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you remember any occasion which you thought caused him to start to talk that way?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, I don't

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know why he started to hit you about that?

Mrs. OSWALD. Now, I think that I know, although at that time I didn't. I think that he was very nervous and just this somehow relieved his tension.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you observe sometime when you thought he changed?

Mrs. OSWALD. I would say that immediately after coming to the United States Lee changed. I did not know him as such a man in Russia.

Mr. RANKIN Will you describe how you observed these changes and what they were as you saw them?

Mrs. OSWALD. He helped me as before, but he became a little more of a recluse. He did not like my Russian friends and he tried to forbid me to have anything to do with them.

He was very irritable, sometimes for a trifle, for a trifling reason.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you why he did not like your Russian friends?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know why he didn't like them. I didn't understand. At least that which he said was completely unfounded. He simply said some stupid or foolish things.

Mr. RANKIN. Will you tell us the stupid things that he said?

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, he thought that they were fools for having left Russia; they were all traitors. I would tell him he was in the same position being an American in America but there were really no reasons but just irritation. He said that they all only like money, and everything is measured by money. It

Page 11

seems to me that perhaps he was envious of them in the sense they were more prosperous than he was. When I told him, when I would say that to him he did not like to hear that.

Perhaps I shouldn't say these foolish things and I feel kind of uncomfortable to talk about the foolish things that happened or what he said foolish things.

This is one of the reasons why I don't know really the reasons for these quarrels because sometimes the quarrels were just trifles. It is just that Lee was very unrestrained and very explosive at that time.

Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, we will ask you to be very frank with us. It isn't for the purpose of embarrassing you or your husband that we ask you these things but it might help us to understand and even if you will tell us the foolish and stupid things it may shed some light on the problem. You understand that?

Mrs. OSWALD. I understand you are not asking these questions out of curiosity but for a reason.

Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband indicate any particular Russian friends that he disliked more than others?

Mrs. OSWALD. He liked De Mohrenschildt but he because he was a strong person, but only De Mohrenschildt. He did not like Bouhe or Anna Meller.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever tell him you liked these people?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I told him all the time that I liked these people and that is why he was angry at me and would tell me that I was just like they were. At one time I left him and went to my friends because he put me into--put me on the spot by saying, "Well, if you like your friends so much then go ahead and live with them," and he left me no choice.

Mr. RANKIN. When was this, Mrs. Oswald?

Mrs. OSWALD. On Elsbeth Street.

Mr. RANKIN. How long were you gone from him then?

Mrs. OSWALD. One week.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he ask you to return?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. I took June and I went to Anna Meller, took a cab and went there. I spent several days with her. Lee didn't know where I was but he called up and about 2 or 3 days after I came to and we met at De Mohrenschildt's house and he asked me to return home. I, of course, did not want a divorce but I told him it would be better to get a divorce rather than to continue living and quarreling this way. After all this is only a burden on a man if two people live together and fight. I simply wanted to show him, too, that I am not a toy. That a woman is a little more complicated. That you cannot trifle with her.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you say anything at that time about how he should treat you if you returned?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. I told him if he did not change his character, then it would become impossible to continue living with him. Because if there should be such quarrels continuously that would be crippling for the children.

Mr. RANKIN. What did he say to that?

Mrs. OSWALD. Then he said that it would be--it was very hard for him. That he could not change. That I must accept him, such as he was. And he asked me to come back home with him right on that day but he left feeling bad because I did not go and remained with my friend.

Mr. RANKIN. What did you say about accepting him as he was?

Mrs. OSWALD. I told him I was not going to. Of course, such as he was for me he was good, but I wanted simply for the sake of the family that he would correct his character. It isn't that I didn't mean to say he was good for me, I meant to say that I could stand him, but for the sake of the children I wanted him to improve his behavior.

Mr. RANKIN. Then did he get in touch with you again?

Mrs. OSWALD. At that time there was very little room at Anna Meller's and it was very uncomfortable and I left and went to Katya Ford whose husband at that time happened to be out of town on business. I spent several days with Katya Ford but then when her husband returned I did not want to remain with her. And it was on a Sunday morning then when I moved over to Anna Ray. Lee called me and said he wanted to see me, that he had come by bus and he wanted to see me and he came that evening and he cried and said that he

Page 12

wanted me to return home because if I did not return he did not want to continue living. He said he didn't know how to love me in any other way and that he will try to change.

Mr. RANKIN. While you were at Mrs. Ford's did she go to the hospital?

Mrs. OSWALD. No. I think that you are confused---this was Elena Hall in Fort Worth, she was ill and went to the hospital. It is not very interesting to hear all that. Somewhat boring.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall the manner in which Lee brought up the idea of your going to Russia alone?

Mrs. OSWALD. Quite simply he said it was very hard for him here. That he could not have a steady job. It would be better for me because I could work in Russia. That was all.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you understand when he suggested it that he proposed that you go and he stay?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. Now, I think I know why he had in mind to start his foolish activity which could harm me but, of course, at that time he didn't tell me the reason. It is only now that I understand it. At that time when I would ask him he would get angry because he couldn't tell me.

Mr. RANKIN. What would you say to him at that time?

Mrs. OSWALD. I told him at that time that I am agreeable to going if he could not live with me. But he kept on repeating that he wanted to live with me but that it would be better for me, but when I wanted to know the reason he would not tell me.

Mr. RANKIN. Is there something that you have learned since that caused you to believe that this suggestion was related to trying to provide for you or to be sure that you wouldn't be hurt by what he was going to do?

Mrs. OSWALD. At that time I didn't know this. I only saw that he was in such a state that he was struggling and perhaps did not understand himself. I thought that I was the reason for that.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he have a job then?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you feel that you were getting along on what he was earning?

Mrs. OSWALD. Of course.

Mr. RANKIN. Were you urging him to earn more so that he could provide more for the family?

Mrs. OSWALD. No. We had enough.

Mr. RANKIN. You were not complaining about the way you were living?

Mrs. OSWALD. No. I think that my friends had thought, and it was also written in the newspapers that we lived poorly because for Americans $200 appears to be very little. But I have never lived in any very luxurious way and, therefore, for me this was quite sufficient. Some of the others would say, "well here, you don't have a car or don't have this or that." But for me it was sufficient. Sometimes Lee would tell me I was just like my friends, that I wanted to have that which they had. That I preferred them to him because they give me more, but that is not true.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you understand when he suggested you return to Russia that he was proposing to break up your marriage?

Mrs. OSWALD. I told him that I would go to Russia if he would give me a divorce, but he did not want to give me a divorce.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he say why?

Mrs. OSWALD. He said that if he were to give me a divorce that that would break everything between us, which he didn't want. That he wanted to keep me as his wife, but I told him that if he wants to remain in the United States I want to be free in Russia.

Mr. RANKIN. During this period did he appear to be more excited and nervous?

Mrs. OSWALD. Not particularly, but the later time he was more excited and more nervous but it was quite a contrast between the way he was in Russia.

Mr. RANKIN. By the later time that you just referred to what do you mean? Can you give us some approximate date?

Mrs. OSWALD. When we went to Neely Street.

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The CHAIRMAN. I think this is a good time to take our luncheon recess now. So, we will adjourn until 2 o'clock.

Mrs. OSWALD. Thank you.

(Whereupon, at 12:30 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)

Afternoon Session

TESTIMONY OF MRS. LEE HARVEY OSWALD RESUMED

The President's Commission reconvened at 2 p.m.

The CHAIRMAN. All right. Let us proceed.

(The Chairman administered the oath to Alvin I. Mills, Stenotype Reporter.)

Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Reporter, do you have the last questions?

In the future, would you do that, so we can refresh the witness about the last couple of questions on her testimony? I think it will make it easier for her, if she doesn't have to try to remember all the time.

Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, as I recall you were telling us about these developments at Neely Street when you found that your husband was suggesting that you go back to Russia alone and you discussed that matter, and you thought it had something to do with the idea he had, which I understood you have discovered as you looked back or thought back later but didn't know at the time fully. Is that right?

Mrs. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. RANKIN. Could you tell us those things that you observed that caused you to think he had something in mind at that time, and I will ask you later, after you tell us, those that you discovered since or that you have obtained more light on since.

Mrs. OSWALD. At that time I did not think anything about it. I had no reasons to think that he had something in mind. I did not understand him at that time.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall the first time that you observed the rifle?

Mrs. OSWALD. That was on Neely Street. I think that was in February.

Mr. RANKIN. How did you learn about it? Did you see it some place in the apartment?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, Lee had a small room where he spent a great deal of time, where he read---where he kept his things, and that is where the rifle was.

Mr. RANKIN. Was it out in the room at that time, as distinguished from in a closet in the room?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, it was open, out in the open. At first I think---I saw some package up on the top shelf, and I think that that was the rifle. But I didn't know. And apparently later he assembled it and had it in the room.

Mr. RANKIN. When you saw the rifle assembled in the room, did it have the scope on it?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, it did not have a scope on it.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you have any discussion with your husband about the rifle when you first saw it?

Mrs. OSWALD. Of course I asked him, "What do you need a rifle for? What do we need that for?"

He said that it would come in handy some time for hunting. And this was not too surprising because in Russia, too, we had a rifle.

Mr. RANKIN. In Russia did you have a rifle or a shotgun?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know the difference. One and the other shoots. You men. That is your business.

The CHAIRMAN. My wife wouldn't know the difference, so it is all right.

Mrs. OSWALD. I have never served in the Army.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you discuss what the rifle cost with your husband?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Was the rifle later placed in a closet in the apartment at Neely Street?

Page 14

Mrs. OSWALD. No, it was always either in a corner, standing up in a corner or on a shelf.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know what happened to the gun that you had in Russia? Was it brought over to this country?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, he sold it there. I did not say so when I had the first interviews. You must understand this was my husband. I didn't want to say too much.

Mr. RANKIN. Is this rifle at Neely Street the only rifle that you know of that your husband had after you were married to him?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever show that rifle to the De Mohrenschildts?

Mrs. OSWALD. I know that De Mohrenschildts had said that the rifle had been shown to him, but I don't remember that.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall your husband taking the rifle away from the apartment on Neely Street at any time?

Mrs. OSWALD. You must know that the rifle it isn't as if it was out in the open. He would hang a coat or something to mask its presence in the room. And sometimes when he walked out, when he went out in the evening I didn't know, because I didn't go into that room very often. I don't know whether he took it with him or not.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever see him clean the rifle?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. I said before I had never seen it before. But I think you understand. I want to help you, and that is why there is no reason for concealing anything. I will not be charged with anything.

Mr. GOPADZE. She says she was not sworn in before. But now inasmuch as she is sworn in, she is going to tell the truth.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you see him clean the rifle a number of times?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Could you help us by giving some estimate of the times as you remember it?

Mrs. OSWALD. About four times---about four or five times, I think.

Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband ever tell you why he was cleaning the--that is, that he had been using it and needed to be cleaned after use?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, I did not ask him, because I thought it was quite normal that when you have a rifle you must clean it from time to time.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever observe your husband taking the rifle away from the apartment on Neely Street?

Mrs. OSWALD. Now, I think that he probably did sometimes, but I never did see it. You must understand that sometimes I would be in the kitchen and he would be in his room downstairs, and he would say bye-bye, I will be hack soon, and he may have taken it. He probably did. Perhaps he purely waited for an occasion when he could take it away without my seeing it.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever observe that the rifle had been taken out of the apartment at Neely Street---that is, that it was gone?

Mrs. OSWALD. Before the incident with General Walker, I know that Lee was preparing for something. He took photographs of that house and he told me not to enter his room. I didn't know about these photographs, but when I came into the room once in general he tried to make it so that I would spend less time in that room. I noticed that quite accidentally one time when I was cleaning the room he tried to take care of it himself.

I asked him what kind of photographs are these, but he didn't say anything to me.

Mr. RANKIN. That is the photographs of the Walker house that you were asking about?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. Later, after he had fired, he told me about it.

I didn't know that he intended to do it---that he was planning to do it.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you learn at any time that he had been practicing with the rifle?

Mrs. OSWALD. I think that he went once or twice. I didn't actually see him take the rifle, but I knew that he was practicing.

Mr. RANKIN. Could you give us a little help on how you knew?

Mrs. OSWALD. He told me. And he would mention that in passing---it isn't

Page 15

as if he said, "Well, today I am going"---it wasn't as if he said, "Well, today I am going to take the rifle and go and practice."

But he would say, "Well, today I will take the rifle along for practice."

Therefore, I don't know whether he took it from the house or whether perhaps he even kept the rifle somewhere outside. There was a little square, sort of a little courtyard where he might have kept it.

When you asked me about the rifle, I said that Lee didn't have a rifle, but he also had a gun, a revolver.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall when he first had the pistol, that you remember?

Mrs. OSWALD. He had that on Neely Street, but I think that he acquired the rifle before he acquired the pistol. The pistol I saw twice once in his room, and the second time when I took these photographs.

Mr. RANKIN. What period of time was there between when he got the rifle and you learned of it, and the time that you first learned about the pistol?

Mrs. OSWALD. I can't say.

Mr. RANKIN. When you testified about his practicing with the rifle, are you describing a period when you were still at Neely Street?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know where he practiced with the rifle?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know where. I don't know the name of the place where this took place. But I think it was somewhere out of town. It seems to me a place called Lopfield.

Mr. RANKIN. Would that be at the airport---Love Field?

Mrs. OSWALD. Love Field.

Mr. RANKIN. So you think he was practicing out in the open and not at a rifle range?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall seeing the rifle when the telescopic lens was on it?

Mrs. OSWALD. I hadn't paid any attention initially.

I know a rifle was a rifle. I didn't know whether or not it had a telescope attached to it. But the first time I remember seeing it was in New Orleans, where I recognized the telescope. But probably the telescope was on before. I simply hadn't paid attention.

I hope you understand. When I saw it, I thought that all rifles have that.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you make any objection to having the rifle around?

Mrs. OSWALD. Of course.

Mr. RANKIN. What did he say to that?

Mrs. OSWALD. That for a man to have a rifle since I am a woman, I don't understand him, and I shouldn't bother him. A fine life.

Mr. RANKIN. Is that the same rifle that you are referring to that you took the picture of with your husband and when he had the pistol, too?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. I asked him then why he had dressed himself up like that, with the rifle and the pistol, and I thought that he had gone crazy, and he said he wanted to send that to a newspaper. This was not my business--it was man's business.

If I had known these were such dangerous toys of course you understand that I thought that Lee had changed in that direction, and I didn't think it was a serious occupation with him, just playing around.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall the day that you took the picture of him with the rifle and the pistol?

Mrs. OSWALD. I think that that was towards the end of February, possibly the beginning of March. I can't say exactly. Because I didn't attach any significance to it at the time. That was the only time I took any pictures.

I don't know how to take pictures. He gave me a camera and asked me someone should ask me how to photograph, I don't know.

Mr. RANKIN. Was it on a day off that you took the picture?

Mrs. OSWALD. It was on a Sunday.

Mr. RANKIN. How did it occur? Did he come to you and ask you to take the picture?

Mrs. OSWALD. I was hanging up diapers, and he came up to me with the rifle and l was even a little scared, and he gave me the camera and asked me to press a certain button.

Page 16

Mr. RANKIN. And he was dressed up with a pistol at the same time, was he?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. You have examined that picture since, and noticed that the telescopic lens was on at the time the picture was taken, have you not?

Mrs. OSWALD. Now I paid attention to it. A specialist would see it immediately, of course. But at that time I did not pay any attention at all. I saw just Lee. These details are of great significance for everybody, but for me at that time it didn't mean anything. At the time' that I was questioned, I had even forgotten that I had taken two photographs. I thought there was only one. I thought that there were two identical pictures, but they turned out to be two different poses.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you have anything to do with the prints of the photograph after the prints were made? That is, did you put them in a photographic album yourself?

Mrs. OSWALD. Lee gave me one photograph and asked me to keep it for June somewhere. Of course June doesn't need photographs like that.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall how long after that the Walker matter occurred?

Mrs. OSWALD. Two, perhaps three weeks later. I don't know. You know better when this happened.

Mr. RANKIN. How did you first learn that your husband had shot at General Walker?

Mrs. OSWALD. That evening he went out, I thought that he had gone to his classes or perhaps that he just walked out or went out on his own business. It got to be about 10 or 10:30, he wasn't home yet, and I began to be worried. Perhaps even later.

Then I went into his room. Somehow, I was drawn into it--you know--I was pacing around. Then I saw a note there.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you look for the gun at that time?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, I didn't understand anything. On the note it said, "If I am arrested" and there are certain other questions, such as, for example, the key to the mailbox is in such and such a place, and that he left me some money to last me for some time, and I couldn't understand at all what can he be arrested for. When he came back I asked him what had happened. He was very pale. I don't remember the exact time, but it was very late. And he told me not to ask him any questions. He only told me that he had shot at General Walker.

Of course I didn't sleep all night. I thought that any minute now, the police will come. Of course I wanted to ask him a great deal. But in his state I decided I had best leave him alone it would be purposeless to question him.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he say any more than that about the shooting?

Mrs. OSWALD. Of course in the morning I told him that I was worried, and that we can have a lot of trouble, and I asked him, "Where is the rifle? What did you do with it?"

He said, that he had left it somewhere, that he had buried it, it seems to me, somewhere far from that place, because he said dogs could find it by smell. I don't know---I am not a criminologist.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you why he had shot at General Walker?

Mrs. OSWALD. I told him that he had no right to kill people in peacetime, he had no right to take their life because not everybody has the same ideas as he has. People cannot be all alike. He said that this was a very bad man, that he was a fascist, that he was the leader of a fascist organization, and when I said that even though all of that night be true, just the same he had no right to take his life, he said if someone had killed Hitler in time it would have saved many lives. I told him that this is no method to prove your ideas, by means of a rifle.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you ask him how long he had been planning to do this?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. He said he had been planning for two months. Yes--perhaps he had planned to do so even earlier, but according to his conduct I could tell he was planning--he had been planning this for two months or perhaps a little even earlier.

The CHAIRMAN. Would you like to take a little recess?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, thank you. Better to get it over with.

Page 17

Mr. RANKIN. Did he show you a picture of the Walker house then?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. That was after the shooting?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. He had a book---he had a notebook in which he noted down quite a few details. It was all in English, I didn't read it. But I noticed the photograph. Sometimes he would lock himself in his room and write in the book. I thought that he was writing some other kind of memoirs, as he had written about his life in the Soviet Union.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever read that book?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know of anything else he had in it besides this Walker house picture?

Mrs. OSWALD. No. Photographs and notes, and I think there was a map in there.

Mr. RANKIN. There was a map of the area where the Walker house was?

Mrs. OSWALD. It was a map of Dallas, but I don't know where Walker lived. Sometimes evenings he would be busy with this. Perhaps he was calculating something, but I don't know. He had a bus schedule and computed something.

After this had happened, people thought that he had a car, but he had been using a bus.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he explain to you about his being able to use a bus just as well as other people could use a car---something of that kind?

Mrs. OSWALD. No. Simply as a passenger. He told me that even before that time he had gone also to shoot, but he had returned. I don't know why.

Because on the day that he did fire, there was a church across the street and there were many people there, and it was easier to merge in the crowd and not be noticed.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you ask him about this note that he had left, what he meant by it?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes--he said he had in mind that if in case he were arrested, I would know what to do.

Mr. RANKIN. The note doesn't say anything about Walker, does it?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you ask him if that is what he meant by the note?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, because as soon as he came home I showed him the note and asked him "What is the meaning of this?"

Mr. RANKIN. And that is when he gave you the explanation about the Walker shooting?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

I know that on a Sunday he took the rifle, but I don't think he fired on a Sunday. Perhaps this was on Friday. So Sunday he left and took the rifle.

Mr. RANKIN. If the Walker shooting was on Wednesday, does that refresh your memory as to the day of the week at all?

Mrs. OSWALD. Refresh my memory as to what?

Mr. RANKIN. As to the day of the shooting?

Mrs. OSWALD. It was in the middle of the week.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he give any further explanation of what had happened that evening?

Mrs. OSWALD. When he fired, he did not know whether he had hit Walker or not. He didn't take the bus from there. He ran several kilometers and then took the bus. And he turned on the radio and listened, but there were no reports.

The next day he bought a paper and there he read it was only chance that saved Walker's life. If he had not moved, he might have been killed.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he comment on that at all?

Mrs. OSWALD. He said only that he had taken very good aim, that it was just chance that caused him to miss. He was very sorry that he had not hit him.

I asked him to give me his word that he would not repeat anything like that. I said that this chance shows that he must live and that he should not be shot at again. I told him that I would save the note and that if something like that

Page 18

should be repeated again, I would go to the police and I would have the proof in the form of that note.

He said he would not repeat anything like that again.

By the way, several days after that, the De Mohrenschildts came to us, and as soon as he opened the door he said, "Lee, how is it possible that you missed?"

I looked at Lee. I thought that he had told De Mohrenschildt about it. And Lee looked at me, and he apparently thought that I had told De Mohrenschildt about it. It was kind of dark. But I noticed---it was in the evening, but I noticed that his face changed, that he almost became speechless.

You see, other people knew my husband better than I did. Not always--but in this case.

Mr. RANKIN. Was De Mohrenschildt a friend that he told---your husband told him personal things that you knew of?

Mrs. OSWALD. He asked Lee not because Lee had told him about it, but I think because he is smart enough man to have been able to guess it. I don't know---he is simply a liberal, simply a man. I don't think that he is being accused justly of being a Communist.

Mr. RANKIN. That is De Mohrenschildt that you refer to?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you tell the authorities anything about this Walker incident when you learned about it?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. You have told the Secret Service or the FBI people reasons why you didn't. Will you tell us?

Mrs. OSWALD. Why I did not tell about it?

First, because it was my husband. As far as I know, according to the local laws here, a wife cannot be a witness against her husband. But, of course, if I had known that Lee intended to repeat something like that, I would have told.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he ask you to return the note to him?

Mrs. OSWALD. He forgot about it. But apparently after that he thought that what he had written in his book might be proof against him, and he destroyed it.

Mr. RANKIN. That is this book that you have just referred to in which he had the Walker house picture?

Mrs. OSWALD. There was a notebook, yes, that is the one.

Mr. RANKIN. What did you do with the note that he had left for you after you talked about it and said you were going to keep it?

Mrs. OSWALD. I had it among my things in a cookbook. But I have two--I don't remember in which.

Mr. RANKIN. Did your relations with your husband change after this Walker incident?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Will you describe to us the changes as you observed them?

Mrs. OSWALD. Soon after that, Lee lost his job---I don't know for what reason. He was upset by it. And he looked for work for several days. And then I insisted that it would be better for him to go to New Orleans where he had relatives. I insisted on that because I wanted to get him further removed from Dallas and from Walker, because even though he gave me his word, I wanted to have him further away, because a rifle for him was not a very good toy---a toy that was too enticing.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you say that you wanted him to go to New Orleans because of the Walker incident?

Mrs. OSWALD. No. I simply told him that I wanted to see his home town. He had been born there.

Mr. RANKIN. When he promised you that he would not do anything like that again, did you then believe him?

Mrs. OSWALD. I did not quite believe him inasmuch as the rifle remained in the house.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you ask him to get rid of the rifle at that time?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Page 19

Mr. RANKIN. After he shot at Walker, did you notice his taking the rifle out any more to practice?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall when you went to New Orleans?

Mrs. OSWALD. I think it was in May. Lee went there himself, by himself. At that time, I became acquainted with Mrs. Paine, and I stayed with her while he was looking for work. In about one week Lee telephoned me that he had found a job and that I should come down.

Mr. RANKIN. When did you first get acquainted with Mrs. Paine?

Mrs. OSWALD. I think it was a couple of months earlier---probably in January.

Mr. RANKIN. How did you happen to go to Mrs. Paine's house to stay? Did she invite you?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; she invited me. I had become acquainted with her through some Russian friends of ours. We had visited with some people, and she was there. Inasmuch as she was studying Russian, she invited me to stay with her.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you pay her anything for staying with her?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, I only repaid her in the sense that I helped her in the household and that I gave her Russian language lessons. This, in her words, was the very best pay that I could give her. And she wanted that I remain with her longer.

But, of course, it was better for me to be with my husband.

Mr. RANKIN. How did your husband. let you know that he had found a job?

Mrs. OSWALD. He telephoned me.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you then leave at once for New Orleans?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. And how did you get to New Orleans from Dallas?

Mrs. OSWALD. Mrs. Paine took me there in her car. She took her children and my things and we went there.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you have much in the way of household goods to move?

Mrs. OSWALD. Everything---we could put everything into one car. But, in fact, most of the things Lee had taken with him. Because he went by bus.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he take the gun with him to New Orleans?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember exactly, but it seems to me that it was not among my things.

Mr. RANKIN. Where did you live at New Orleans?

Mrs. OSWALD. Magazine Street. By the time I arrived there Lee already had rented an apartment.

Mr. RANKIN. When Mrs. Paine brought you down to New Orleans, did she stay with you for any period of time?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, she was there for two days.

Mr. RANKIN. How did Mrs. Paine and your husband get along? Were they friendly?

Mrs. OSWALD. She was very good to us, to Lee and to me, and Lee was quite friendly with her, but he did not like her. I know that he didn't like her

Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you why he didn't like her?

Mrs. OSWALD. He considered her to be a stupid woman. Excuse me these are not my words.

Mr. RANKIN. Were you and Mrs. Paine good friends?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, so-so. I tried to help her as much as I could. But I also--I was---I did not like her too well. I also considered her not to be a very smart woman.

Mr. RANKIN. I think it is about time for a recess, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. Very well. We will take a recess for 10 minutes.

(Brief recess.)

The CHAIRMAN. The Committee will be in order.

Mr. Rankin, you may continue.

Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, did you discuss the Walker shooting with Mrs. Paine?

Mrs. OSWALD. No. I didn't tell anyone. Apart from the FBI. That is after--that is later.

Mr. RANKIN. When was it that you told the FBI about the Walker shooting?

Mrs. OSWALD. About 2 weeks after Lee was killed.

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Mr. RANKIN. Before you went to New Orleans, had you seen anyone from the FBI?

Mrs. OSWALD. The FBI visited us in Fort Worth when we lived on Mercedes Street.

Mr. RANKIN. Was that in August 1962?

Mrs. OSWALD. Probably.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know the names of the FBI agents that visited you then?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, I don't remember that Lee had just returned from work and we were getting ready to have dinner when a car drove up and a man introduced himself and asked Lee to step out and talk to him.

There was another man in the car. They talked for about 2 hours and I was very angry, because everything had gotten cold. This meant more work for me. I asked who these were, and he was very upset over the fact that the FBI was interested in him.

Mr. RANKIN. Did that interview take place in the car?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband tell you what they said to him and what he said to them?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know to what extent this was true, but Lee said that the FBI had told him that in the event some Russians might visit him and would try to recruit him to work for them, he should notify the FBI agents. I don't know to what extent this was true. But perhaps Lee just said that.

Mr. RANKIN. Did our husband say anything about the FBI asking him to work for them?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, he didn't tell me.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he say anything more about what they said to him in this interview?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, he didn't tell me verbatim, but he said that they saw Communists in everybody and they are very much afraid and inasmuch as I had returned from Russia.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you that they had asked him whether he had acted as an agent or was asked to be an agent for the Russians?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall any other----

Mrs. OSWALD. Excuse me. They did ask him about whether the Russians had proposed that he be an agent for them.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you what he said to them in that regard?

Mrs. OSWALD. He told me that he had answered no.

Mr. RANKIN. After this interview by the FBI agents, do you recall any later interview with them and yourself or your husband before you went to New Orleans?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, there were no other interviews.

The next time was in Irving, when I lived with Mrs. Paine. But that is after I returned from New Orleans.

Mr. RANKIN. At New Orleans, who did your husband work for?

Mrs. OSWALD. He worked for the Louisiana Coffee Co. But I don't know in what capacity. I don't think that this was very good job, or perhaps more correctly, he did not---I know that he didn't like this job.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know what he received in pay from that job?

Mrs. OSWALD. $1.35 an hour, I think. I am not sure.

Mr. RANKIN. How long did he work for this coffee company?

Mrs. OSWALD. I think it was from May until August, to the end of August.

Mr. RANKIN. Was he discharged?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. And then was he unemployed for a time?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. After you had discussed with your husband your going to Russia, was anything done about that?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I wrote a letter to the Soviet Embassy with a request to be permitted to return. And then it seems to me after I was already in New Orleans, I wrote another letter in which I told the Embassy that my husband wants to return with me.

Page 21

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall the date of the first letter that you just referred to?

Mrs. OSWALD. No. But that is easily determined.

Mr. RANKIN. Were you asking for a visa to return to Russia?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you discuss with your husband his returning with you before you wrote the second letter that you have described?

Mrs. OSWALD. I didn't ask him. He asked me to do so one day when he was extremely upset. He appeared to be very unhappy and he said that nothing keeps him here, and that he would not lose anything if he returned to the Soviet Union, and that he wants to be with me. And that it would be better to have less but not to be concerned about tomorrow, not to be worried about tomorrow.

Mr. RANKIN. Was this a change in his attitude?

Mrs. OSWALD. Towards me or towards Russia?

Mr. RANKIN. Towards going to Russia.

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't think that he was too fond of Russia, but simply that he knew that he would have work assured him there, because he had---after all, he had to think about his family.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you know that he did get a passport?

Mrs. OSWALD. It seems to me he always had a passport.

Mr. RANKIN. While he was in New Orleans, that he got a passport?

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, it seems to me that after we came here, he immediately received a passport. I don't know. I always saw his green passport. He even had two--one that had expired, and a new one.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know when the new one was issued?

Mrs. OSWALD. No. It seems to me in the Embassy when we arrived. I don't know.

But please understand me correctly, I am not hiding this. I simply don't know.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know about a letter from your husband to the Embassy asking that his request for a visa be considered separately from yours?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, I don't.

Mr. RANKIN. When you were at New Orleans, did your husband go to school, that you knew of?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he spend his earnings with you and your child?

Mrs. OSWALD. Most of the time, yes. But I know that he became active with some kind of activity in a pro-Cuban committee. I hope that is what you are looking for.

Mr. RANKIN. When did you first notice the rifle at New Orleans?

Mrs. OSWALD. As soon as I arrived in New Orleans.

Mr. RANKIN. Where was it kept there?

Mrs. OSWALD. He again had a closet-like room with his things in it. He had his clothes hanging there, all his other belongings.

Mr. RANKIN. Was the rifle in a cover there?

Mrs OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you notice him take it away from your home there in New Orleans at any time?

Mrs. OSWALD. No. I know for sure that he didn't. But I know that we had a kind of a porch with a---screened-in porch, and I know that sometimes evenings after dark he would sit there with his rifle. I don't know what he did with it. I came there by chance once and saw him just sitting there with his rifle. I thought he is merely sitting there and resting. Of course I didn't like these kind of little jokes.

Mr. RANKIN. Can you give us an idea of how often this happened that you recall?

Mrs. OSWALD. It began to happen quite frequently after he was arrested there in connection with some demonstration and handing out of leaflets.

Mr. RANKIN. Was that the Fair Play for Cuba demonstration?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. From what you observed about his having the rifle on the back porch, in the dark, could you tell whether or not he was trying to practice with the telescopic lens?

731-217 O--64--vol.I---3

Page 22

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. I asked him why. But this time he was preparing to go to Cuba.

Mr. RANKIN. That was his explanation for practicing with the rifle?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. He said that he would, go to Cuba. I told him I was not going with him---that I would stay here.

Mr. RANKIN. On these occasions when he was practicing with the rifle, would they be three or four times a week in the evening, after the Fair Play for Cuba incident?

Mrs. OSWALD. Almost every evening. He very much wanted to go to Cuba and have the newspapers write that somebody had kidnaped an aircraft. And I asked him "For God sakes, don't do such a thing."

Mr. RANKIN. Did he describe that idea to you?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. And when he told you of it, did he indicate that he wanted to be the one that would kidnap the airplane himself?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, he wanted to do that. And he asked me that I should help him with that. But I told him I would not touch that rifle. This sounds very merry, but I am very much ashamed of it.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you tell him that using the rifle in this way, talking about it, was not in accordance with his agreement with you?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. What did he say about that?

Mrs. OSWALD. He said that everything would go well. He was very self-reliant---if I didn't want to.

Mr. RANKIN. Was there any talk of divorce during this period?

Mrs. OSWALD. No. During this time, we got along pretty well not counting the incidents with Cuba. I say relatively well, because we did not really have generally he helped me quite a bit and was good to me. But, of course, I did not agree with his views.

Mr. RANKIN. At this time in New Orleans did he discuss with you his views?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. What did he say about that?

Mrs. OSWALD. Mostly---most of the conversations were on the subject of Cuba.

Mr. RANKIN. Was there anything said about the United States--not liking the United States.

Mrs. OSWALD. No. I can't say---he liked some things in Russia, he liked. some other things here, didn't like some things there, and didn't like some things here.

And I am convinced that as much as he knew about Cuba, all he knew was from books and so on. He wanted to convince himself. But I am sure that if he had gone there, he would not have liked it there, either. Only on the moon, perhaps.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you what he didn't like about the United States?

Mrs. OSWALD. First of all, he didn't like the fact that there are fascist organizations here. That was one thing. The second thing, that it was hard to get an education and hard to find work. And that medical expenses were very high.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he say who he blamed for this?

Mrs. OSWALD. He didn't blame anyone.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he ever say anything about President Kennedy?

Mrs. OSWALD. No. At least---I was always interested in President Kennedy and had asked him many times to translate articles in a newspaper or magazine for me, and he always had something good to say. He translated it, but never did comment on it. At least in Lee's behavior---from Lee's behavior I cannot conclude that he was against the President, and therefore the thing is incomprehensible to me. Perhaps he hid it from me. I don't know. He said that after 20 years he would be prime minister. I think that he had a sick imagination---at least at that time I already considered him to be not quite normal--not always, but at times. I always tried to point out to him that he was a man like any others who were around us. But he simply could not understand that.

I tried to tell him that it would be better to direct his energies to some more practical matters, and not something like that.

Page 23

Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell us what you observed about him that caused you to think he was different?

Mrs. OSWALD. At least his imagination, his fantasy, which was quite unfounded, as to the fact that he was an outstanding man. And then the fact that he was very much interested, exceedingly so, in autobiographical works of outstanding statesmen of the United States and others.

Mr. RANKIN. Was there anything else of that kind that caused you to think that he was different?

Mrs. OSWALD. I think that he compared himself to these people whose autobiographies he read. That seems strange to me, because it is necessary to have an education in order to achieve success of that kind. After he became busy with his pro-Cuban activity, he received a letter from somebody in New York, some Communist---probably from New York---I am not sure from where from some Communist leader and he was very happy, he felt that this was a great man that he had received the letter from.

You see, when I would make fun of him, of his activity to some extent, in the sense that it didn't help anyone really, he said that I didn't understand him, and here, you see, was proof that someone else did, that there were people who understood his activity.

I would say that to Lee---that Lee could not really do much for Cuba, that Cuba would get along well without him, if they had to.

Mr. RANKIN. You would tell that to him?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. And what would he say in return?

Mrs. OSWALD. He shrugged his shoulders and kept his own opinion. He was even interested in the airplane schedules, with the idea of kidnaping a plane. But I talked him out of it.

Mr. RANKIN. The airplane schedules from New Orleans?

Mrs. OSWALD. New Orleans---but---from New Orleans leaving New Orleans in an opposite direction. And he was going to make it turn around and go to Cuba.

Mr. RANKIN. He discussed this with you?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. When did his Fair Play for Cuba activity occur---before or after he lost his job?

Mrs. OSWALD. After he lost his job. I told him it would be much better if he were working, because when he didn't work he was busy with such foolishness.

Mr. RANKIN. What did he say about that?

Mrs. OSWALD. Nothing. And it is at that time that I wrote a letter to Mrs. Paine telling her that Lee was out of work, and they invited me to come and stay with her. And when I left her, I knew that Lee would go to Mexico City. But, of course, I didn't tell Mrs. Paine about it.

Mr. RANKIN. Had he discussed with you the idea of going to Mexico City?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. When did he first discuss that?

Mrs. OSWALD. I think it was in August.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you why he wanted to go to Mexico City?

Mrs. OSWALD. From Mexico City he wanted to go to Cuba--perhaps through the Russian Embassy in Mexico somehow he would be able to get to Cuba.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he say anything about going to Russia by way of Cuba?

Mrs. OSWALD. I know that he said that in the embassy. But he only said so. I know that he had no intention of going to Russia then.

Mr. RANKIN. How do you know that?

Mrs. OSWALD. He told me. I know Lee fairly well--well enough from that point of view.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you that he was going to Cuba and send you on to Russia?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, he proposed that after he got to Cuba, that I would go there, too, somehow.

But he also said that after he was in Cuba, and if he might go to Russia, he would let me know in any ease.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he discuss Castro and the Cuban Government with you?

Page 24

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. When did he start to do that?

Mrs. OSWALD. At the time that he was busy with that pro-Cuban activity. He was sympathetic to Castro while in Russia, and I have also a good opinion of Castro to the extent that I know. I don't know anything bad about him.

Mr. RANKIN. What did he say about Castro to you?

Mrs. OSWALD. He said that he is a very smart statesman, very useful for his government, and very active.

Mr. RANKIN. What did you say to him?

Mrs. OSWALD. I said, "Maybe." It doesn't make any difference to me.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you know he was writing to the Fair Play for Cuba organization in New York during this latter period in New Orleans?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he show you that correspondence?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. How did you learn that?

Mrs. OSWALD. He told me about it. Or, more correctly, I saw that he was writing to them.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you write the Russian Embassy in regard to your visa from New Orleans.

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall what address you gave in New Orleans when you wrote?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, I don't remember. Sometimes I would write a letter, but Lee would insert the address and would mail the letters. That is why I don't remember.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you get your mail in New Orleans at your apartment or at a pest office box?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, we had a post office box, and that is where we received our mail.

Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband have any organization in his Fair Play for Cuba at New Orleans?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, he had no organization. He was alone. He was quite alone.

Mr. RANKIN. When did you learn about his arrest there?

Mrs. OSWALD. The next day, when he was away from home overnight and returned, he told me he had been arrested.

Mr. RANKIN. What did he say about it?

Mrs. OSWALD. He was smiling, but in my opinion he was upset. I think that after that occurrence he became less active, ,he cooled off a little.

Mr. RANKIN. Less active in the Fair Play for Cuba?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. He continued it, but more for a person's sake. I think that his heart was no longer in it.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you that the FBI had seen him at the jail in New Orleans?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he complain about his arrest and say it was unfair, anything of that kind.

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you know he paid a fine?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you have anything to do with trying to get him out of jail?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

He was only there for 24 hours. He paid his fine and left. He said that the policeman who talked to him was very kind, and was a very good person.

Mr. RANKIN. While you were in New Orleans, did you get to know the Murrets?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. They are his relatives. I think that Lee engaged in this activity primarily for purposes of self-advertising. He wanted to be arrested. I think he wanted to get into the newspapers, so that he would be known.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you think he wanted to be advertised and known as being in support of Cuba before he went to Cuba?

Page 25

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you think he thought that would help him when he got to Cuba?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he toll you anything about that, or is that just what you guess?

Mrs. OSWALD. He would collect the newspaper clippings about his--when the newspapers wrote about him, and he took these clippings with him when he went to Mexico.

Mr. RANKIN. Did the Murrets come to visit you from time to time in New Orleans?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes---sometimes they came to us, and sometimes we went to them.

Mr. RANKIN. Was that a friendly relationship?

Mrs. OSWALD. I would say that they were more of a family relationship type. They were very good to us. His uncle, that is the husband of his aunt, was a very good man. He tried to reason with Lee after that incident. Lee liked them very much as relatives but he didn't like the fact that they were all very religious.

When his uncle, or, again, the husband of his aunt would tell him that he must approach things with a more serious attitude, and to worry about himself and his family, Lee would say, "Well, these are just bourgeois, who are only concerned with their own individual welfare."

Mr. KRIMER. The word Mrs. Oswald used is not quite bourgeois, but it is a person of a very narrow viewpoint who is only concerned with his own personal interests, inclined to be an egotist.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you hear the discussion when the uncle talked about this Fair Play for Cuba and his activities?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. What did the uncle say to your husband about that?

Mrs. OSWALD. At that time, I did not know English too well, and Lee would not interpret for me. He only nodded his head. But I knew that he did not agree with his uncle. His uncle said that he condemned that kind of activity.

Mr. RANKIN. What was your husband's attitude about your learning English?

Mrs. OSWALD. He never talked English to me at home, and did not give me any instruction. This was strictly my own business. But he did want me to learn English. But that was my own concern. I had to do that myself somehow. That is the truth.

Mr. RANKIN. Did any of your Russian friends visit you at New Orleans?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Outside of the Murrets, were there some people from New Orleans that visited you at your home in New Orleans?

Mrs. OSWALD. Once or twice a woman visited who was a friend of Ruth Paine's. Ruth Paine has written her. She had written to Ruth Paine to find out whether she knew any Russians there. And once or twice this woman visited us. But other than that, no one.

Mr. RANKIN. What was the name of this woman?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember. I only remember that her first name is also Ruth.

Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband have friends of his that visited you there at New Orleans?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, never.

Once some time after Lee was arrested, on a Saturday or a Sunday morning, a man came early and questioned Lee about the activity of the allegedly existing organization, which really did not exist. Because in the newspaper accounts Lee was described as a member and even the leader of that organization which in reality did not exist at all.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know who that was?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, I don't. I asked Lee who that was, and he said that is probably some anti-Cuban, or perhaps an FBI agent. He represented himself as a man who was sympathetic to Cuba but Lee did not believe him.

Page 26

Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband ever tell you what he told the FBI agent when they came to the Jail to see him?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. After you wrote Mrs. Paine, did she come at once in response to your letter to take you back to Dallas?

Mrs. OSWALD. Not quite at once. She came about a month later. She apparently was on vacation at that time, and said that she would come after her vacation.

Mr. RANKIN. Didn't she indicate that she was going to come around September 30, and then came a little before that?

Mrs. OSWALD. No. In her letter to me she indicated that she would come either the 20th or the 21st of September, and she did come at that time.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you move your household goods in her station wagon at that time?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether or not the rifle was carried in the station wagon?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, it was.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you have anything to do with loading it in there?

Mrs. OSWALD. No. Lee was loading everything on because I was pregnant at the time. But I know that Lee loaded the rifle on.

Mr. RANKIN. Was the rifle carried in some kind of a case when you went back with Mrs. Paine?

Mrs. OSWALD. After we arrived, I tried to put the bed, the child's crib together, the metallic parts, and I looked for a certain part, and I came upon something wrapped in a blanket. I thought that was part of the bed, but it turned out to be the rifle.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you remember whether the pistol was carried back in Mrs. Paine's car too?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know where the pistol was.

Mr. RANKIN. Before you went back to Mrs. Paine's house, did you discuss whether you would be paying her anything for board and room?

Mrs. OSWALD. She proposed that I again live with her on the same conditions as before. Because this was more advantageous for her than to pay a school. She received better instruction that way.

In any case, she didn't spend any extra money for me she didn't spend any more than she usually spent.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you give her lessons in Russian?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, these were not quite lessons. It was more in the nature of conversational practice. And then I also helped her to prepare Russian lessons for the purpose of teaching Russian.

Mr. RANKIN. When you found the rifle wrapped in the blanket, upon your return to Mrs. Paine's, where was it located?

Mrs. OSWALD. In the garage, where all the rest of the things were.

Mr. RANKIN. In what part of the garage?

Mrs. OSWALD. In that part which is closer to the street, because that garage is connected to the house. One door opens on the kitchen, and the other out in the street.

Mr. RANKIN. Was the rifle lying down or was it standing up on the butt end?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, it was lying down on the floor.

Mr. RANKIN When your husband talked about going to Mexico City, did he say where he was going to go there, who he would visit?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. He said that he would go to the Soviet Embassy and to the Cuban Embassy and would do everything he could in order to get to Cuba.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you where he would stay in Mexico City?

Mrs. OSWALD. In a hotel.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you the name?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, he didn't know where he would stop.

Mr. RANKIN. Was there any discussion about the expense of making the trip?

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Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. But we always lived very modestly, and Lee always had some savings. Therefore, he had the money for it.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he say how much it would cost?

Mrs. OSWALD. He had a little over $100 and he said that that would be sufficient.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he talk about getting you a silver bracelet or any presents before he went?

Mrs. OSWALD. It is perhaps more truth to say that he asked me what I would like and I told him that I would like Mexican silver bracelets. But what he did buy me I didn't like at all. When he returned to Irving, from Mexico City, and I saw the bracelet, I was fairly sure that he had bought it in New Orleans and not in Mexico City, because I had seen bracelets like that for sale there. That is why I am not sure that the bracelet was purchased in Mexico.

Lee had an identical bracelet which he had bought in either Dallas or New Orleans. It was a man's bracelet.

Mr. RANKIN. The silver bracelet he gave you when he got back had your name on it, did it not?

Mrs OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Was it too small?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I was offended because it was too small, and he promised to exchange it. But, of course, I didn't want to hurt him, and I said, thank you, the important thing is the thought, the attention.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he discuss other things that he planned to do in Mexico City, such as see the bullfights or jai alai games or anything of that kind?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, I was already questioned about this game by the FBI, but I never heard of it. But I had asked Lee to buy some Mexican records, but he did not do that.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know how he got to Mexico City?

Mrs. OSWALD. By bus.

Mr. RANKIN. And did he return by bus, also?

Mrs. OSWALD. It seems, yes. Yes, he told me that a round-trip ticket was cheaper than two one-way tickets.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you learn that he had a tourist card to go to Mexico?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. If he had such a card, you didn't know it then?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. After he had been to Mexico City, did he come back to Irving or to Dallas?

Mrs. OSWALD. When Lee returned I was already in Irving and he telephoned me. But he told me that he had arrived the night before and had spent the night in Dallas, and called me in the morning.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he say where he had been in Dallas?

Mrs. OSWALD. It seems to me at the YMCA.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he come right out to see you then?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you anything about his trip to Mexico City?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, he told me that he had visited the two embassies, that he had received nothing, that the people who are there are too much---too bureaucratic. He said that he has spent the time pretty well. And I had told him that if he doesn't accomplish anything to at least take a good rest. I was hoping that the climate, if nothing else, would be beneficial to him.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you ask him what he did the rest of the time?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I think he said that he visited a bull fight, that he spent most of his time in museums, and that he did some sightseeing in the city.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you about anyone that he met there?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

He said that he did not like the Mexican girls.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you anything about what happened at the Cuban Embassy, or consulate?

Mrs. OSWALD. No. Only that he had talked to certain people there.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you what people he talked to?

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Mrs. OSWALD. He said that he first visited the Soviet Embassy in the hope that having been there first this would make it easier for him at the Cuban Embassy. But there they refused to have anything to do with him.

Mr. RANKIN. And what did he say about the visit to the Cuban Embassy or consulate?

Mrs. OSWALD. It was quite without results.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he complain about the consular or any of the officials of the Cuban Embassy and the way they handled the matter?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, he called them bureaucrats. He said that the Cubans seemed to have a system similar to the Russians---too much red tape before you get through there.

Mr. RANKIN. Is there anything else that he told you about the Mexico City trip that you haven't related?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, that is all that I can remember about it.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall how long he was gone on his trip to Mexico City?

Mrs. OSWALD. All of this took approximately 2 weeks, from the time that I left New Orleans, until the time that he returned.

Mr. RANKIN. And from the time he left the United States to go to Mexico City to his return, was that about 7 days?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. He said he was there for about a week.

Mr. RANKIN. When you were asked before about the trip to Mexico, you did not say that you knew anything about it. Do you want to explain to the Commission how that happened?

Mrs. OSWALD. Most of these questions were put to me by the FBI. I do not like them too much. I didn't want to be too sincere with them. Though I was quite sincere and answered most of their questions. They questioned me a great deal, and I was very tired of them, and I thought that, well, whether I knew about it or didn't know about it didn't change matters at all, it didn't help anything, because the fact that Lee had been there was already known, and whether or not I knew about it didn't make any difference.

Mr. RANKIN. Was that the only reason that you did not tell about what you knew of the Mexico. City trip before?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, because the first time that they asked me I said no, I didn't know anything about it. And in all succeeding discussions I couldn't very well have said I did. There is nothing special in that. It wasn't because this was connected with some sort of secret.

Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband stay with you at the Paines after that first night when he returned from Mexico?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, he stayed overnight there. And in the morning we took him to Dallas.

Mr. RANKIN. And by "we" who do you mean?

Mrs. OSWALD. Ruth Paine, I and her children.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know what he did in Dallas, then?

Mrs. OSWALD. He intended to rent an apartment in the area of Oak Cliff, and to look for work.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether he did that?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I know that he always tried to get some work. He was not lazy.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he rent the apartment?

Mrs. OSWALD. On the same day he rented a room, not an apartment, and he telephoned me and told me about it.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you discuss the plans for this room before you took him to Dallas?

Mrs. OSWALD. No. I asked him where he would live, and he said it would be best if he rented a room, it would not be as expensive as an apartment.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he say anything about whether you would be living with him, or he would be living there alone?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, I did not really want to be with Lee at that time, because I was expecting, and it would have been better to be with a woman who spoke English and Russian.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know where your husband looked for work in Dallas at that time?

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Mrs. OSWALD. No. He tried to get any kind of work. He answered ads, newspaper ads.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he have trouble finding work again?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. How long after his return was it before he found a job?

Mrs. OSWALD. Two to three weeks.

Mr. RANKIN. When he was unemployed in New Orleans, did he get unemployment compensation?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know how much he was getting then?

Mrs. OSWALD. $33 a week. It is possible to live on that money. One can fail to find work and live. Perhaps you don't believe me. It is not bad to rest and receive money.

Mr. RANKIN. When he was unemployed in Dallas, do you know whether he received unemployment compensation?

Mrs. OSWALD. We were due to receive unemployment compensation, but it was getting close to the end of his entitlement period, and we received one more check.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you. discuss with him possible places of employment after his return from Mexico?

Mrs. OSWALD. No. That was his business. I couldn't help him in that. But to some extent I did help him find a job, because I was visiting Mrs. Paine's neighbors. There was a woman there who told me where he might find some work.

Mr. RANKIN. And when was this?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember. If that is important, I can try and ascertain date. But I think you probably know.

Mr. RANKIN. Was it shortly before he obtained work?

Mrs. OSWALD. As soon as we got the information, the next day he went there and he did get the job.

Mr. RANKIN. And who was it that you got the information from?

Mrs. OSWALD. It was the neighbor whose brother was employed by the school book depository. He said it seemed to him there was a vacancy there.

Mr. RANKIN. What was his name?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, I think we have arrived at our adjournment time. We will recess now until tomorrow morning at 10 o'clock.

(Whereupon, at 4:30 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)

Tuesday, February 4, 1964

TESTIMONY OF MRS. LEE HARVEY OSWALD RESUMED

The President's Commission met at 10 a.m. on February 4, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C.

Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Senator John Sherman Cooper, Representative Hale Boggs, Representative Gerald R. Ford, John J. McCloy, and Allen W. Dulles, members.

Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; Norman Redlich, assistant counsel; Leon I. Gopadze and William D. Krimer, interpreters; and John M. Thorne, attorney for Mrs. Lee Harvey Oswald.

The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will be in order.

Mr. Rankin, will you proceed with the questioning of Mrs. Oswald.

Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, there are a number of things about some of the material we have been over, the period we have been over, that I would like

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to ask you about, sort of to fill in different parts of it I hope you will bear with us in regard to that.

Were you aware of the diary that your husband had written and the book that he had typed?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he hire a public stenographer to help him with his book?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, he wrote his in longhand. He started it in Russia. But he had it retyped here because it had been in longhand.

Mr. RANKIN. And do you know about when he started to have it retyped here?

Mrs. OSWALD. We arrived in June. I think it was at the end of June.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know what happened to that book, or a copy of it?

Mrs. OSWALD. At the present time it is--I don't know where the police department or the FBI.

Mr. RANKIN. And what was done with the diary? Do you know that?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know where it is now. I know that it was taken. But where it is now, I don't know.

Mr. RANKIN. It was taken by either the FBI or the Secret Service or the police department?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know that, because I was not at home when all these things were taken.

Mr. RANKIN. Would you tell us about what you know about their being taken. Were you away from home and someone else was there when various things belonging to you and your husband were taken from the house?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know where this book was, whether it was at Mrs. Paine's or in Lee's apartment, because I did not see it there. I was not at Mrs. Paine's because I lived in a hotel at that time in Dallas.

Mr. RANKIN. What hotel was that?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know.

Mr. RANKIN. Was this diary kept by your husband dally, so far as you know?

Mrs. OSWALD. In Russia?

Mr. RANKIN. Well, Russia first.

Mrs. OSWALD. It seems to me that he did not continue it here, that he had completed it in Russia. Not everything, but most of the time.

Mr. RANKIN. And was it in his own handwriting?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. You have told us about an interview with the FBI, when your husband went out into the car and spent a couple of hours, in August of 1962. Do you recall whether there was an FBI interview earlier than that?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, there wasn't. At least I don't know about it. Perhaps there was such a meeting, perhaps at the time we were in Fort Worth somebody had come, when we lived with Robert. One reporter wanted to interview Lee but Lee would not give the interview, and perhaps the FBI came, too.

Mr. RANKIN. The particular interview that I am asking you about was June 26, according to information from the FBI.

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know about it The first time I knew about the FBI coming was when we lived in Fort Worth.

Mr. RANKIN. What rental did you pay on Mercedes Street?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you have any difficulties while you were on Mercedes Street with your husband--that is, any quarreling there?

Mrs. OSWALD. Only in connection with his mother, because of his mother.

Mr. RANKIN. Were you having any problems about finances there, on Mercedes Street?

Mrs. OSWALD. Of course we did not live in luxury. We did not buy anything that was not absolutely needed, because Lee had to pay his debt to Robert and to the government. But it was not particularly difficult. At least on that basis we had not had any quarrels.

Mr. RANKIN. Could you tell us about De Mohrenschildt? Was he a close friend of your husband?

Mrs. OSWALD. Lee did not have any close friends, but at least he had---here in America--he had a great deal of respect for De Mohrenschildt.

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Mr. RANKIN. Could you describe that relationship. Did they see each other often?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, not very frequently. From time to time.

Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband tell you why he had so much respect for De Mohrenschildt?

Mrs. OSWALD. Because he considered him to be smart, to be full of joy of living, a very energetic and very sympathetic person.

Mr. RANKIN. We had a report that----

Mrs. OSWALD. Excuse me. It was pleasant to meet with him. He would bring some pleasure and better atmosphere when he came to visit--with his dogs--he is very loud.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you like him?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. Him and his wife.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you understand any of the conversations between your husband and De Mohrenschildt?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, they were held in Russian.

Mr. RANKIN. Did they discuss politics or the Marxist philosophy or anything of that kind?

Mrs. OSWALD. Being men, of course, sometimes they talked about politics, but they did not discuss Marxist philosophy. They spoke about current political events.

Mr. RANKIN. Did they have any discussions about President Kennedy or the Government in the United States at that time?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, only George said that before she got married he knew Jackie Kennedy, that she was a very good, very sympathetic woman. Then he was writing a book, that is George, and with reference to that book he had written a letter to President Kennedy. This was with reference to the fact that John Kennedy had recommended physical exercise, walking and so on, and De Mohrenschildt and his wife had walked to the Mexican border. And he hoped that John Kennedy would recommend his book. I don't know---perhaps this is foolishness.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he say anything, or either of them say anything about President Kennedy at that time?

Mrs. OSWALD. Nothing bad.

Mr. RANKIN. When you referred to George, did you mean Mr. De Mohrenschildt?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. I generally didn't believe him, that he had written a book. Sometimes he could say so, but just for amusement.

Mr. RANKIN. Did De Mohrenschildt have a daughter?

Mrs. OSWALD. He had several daughters, and many wives.

Mr. RANKIN. Was one of his daughters named Taylor, her last name?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. That is a daughter of his first marriage. At the present time, I think he has---that is his fourth wife.

Mr. RANKIN. And what was her----

Mrs. OSWALD. It seems that that is the last one.

Mr. RANKIN. What was her husband's name the Taylor daughter?

Mrs. OSWALD. Gary Taylor.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you have anything to do with the Gary Taylors?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, at one time when I had to visit the dentist in Dallas, and I lived in Fort Worth, I came to Dallas and I stayed with them for a couple of days.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know about when that was?

Mrs. OSWALD. October or November, 1962.

Mr. RANKIN. Did Gary Taylor help you to move your things at one time, move you and your daughter?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, he moved our things from Fort Worth to Dallas, to Elsbeth Street.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he help you to move to Mrs. Hall's at any time, anyone else?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, he did not move me to Mrs. Hall. But sometimes he came for a visit. Once or twice I think he came when we lived---to Mrs Hall's, and once when we lived on Mercedes Street.

Mr. RANKIN. What did he do when he came? Were those just visits?

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Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, just visits. Just visits, with his wife and child.

Mr. RANKIN. When the De Mohrenschildts came to the house and you showed them the rifle, did you say anything about it?

Mrs. OSWALD. Perhaps I did say something to him, but I don't remember.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you say anything like "Look what my crazy one has done? Bought a rifle" or something of that kind?

Mrs. OSWALD. This sounds like something I might say. Perhaps I did.

Mr. RANKIN. In the period of October 1962, you did spend some time with Mrs. Hall, did you not, in her home?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Will you tell us about how that happened?

Mrs. OSWALD. When Lee found work in Dallas, Elena Hall proposed that I stay with her for some time, because she was alone, and I would be company.

Mr. RANKIN. Did that have anything to do with any quarrels with your husband?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. During that period of October of 1962, when your husband went to Dallas to get work, do you know where he lived?

Mrs. OSWALD. I know that for---at first, for some time he stayed at the YMCA, but later he rented an apartment, but I don't know at what address. Because in the letters which he wrote me, the return address was a post office box.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether he stayed during that period part of the time with Gary Taylor?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Where did you live while your husband was looking for work and staying at the YMCA and at this apartment that you referred to?

Mrs. OSWALD. When he stayed at the YMCA he had already found work, and I was in Fort Worth.

Mr. RANKIN. And where in Fort Worth were you staying then?

Mrs. OSWALD. With Mrs. Hall.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you notice a change, psychologically, in your husband during this period in the United States?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. When did you first notice that change?

Mrs. OSWALD. At--at Elsbeth Street, in Dallas. After the visit of the FBI, in Fort Worth. He was for some time nervous and irritable.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he seem to have two different personalities then?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Would you describe to the Commission what he did to cause you to think that he was changing?

Mrs. OSWALD. Generally he was---usually he was quite as he always was. He used to help me. And he was a good family man. Sometimes, apparently with out reason, at least I did not know reasons, if any existed, he became quite a stranger. At such times it was impossible to ask him anything. He simply kept to himself. He was irritated by trifles.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall any of the trifles that irritated him, so as to help us to know the picture?

Mrs. OSWALD. It is hard to remember any such trifling occurrences, sometimes such a small thing as, for example, dinner being five minutes late, and I do mean five minutes--it is not that I am exaggerating---he would be very angry. Or if there were no butter on the table, because he hadn't brought it from the icebox, he would with great indignation ask, "Why is there no butter?" And at the same time if I had put the butter on the table he wouldn't have touched it.

This is foolishness, of course. A normal person doesn't get irritated by things like that.

Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, I do not ask these questions to pry into your personal affairs, but it gives us some insight into what he did and why he might have done the things he did. I hope you understand that.

Mrs. OSWALD. I understand.

Mr. RANKIN. Could you tell us a little about when he did beat you because

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we have reports that at times neighbors saw signs of his having beat you, so that we might know the occasions and why he did such things.

Mrs. OSWALD. The neighbors simply saw that because I have a very sensitive skin, and even a very light blow would show marks. Sometimes it was my own fault. Sometimes it was really necessary to just leave him alone. But I wanted more attention. He was jealous. He had no reason to be. But he was jealous of even some of my old friends, old in the sense of age.

Mr. RANKIN. When he became jealous, did he discuss that with you?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, of course.

Mr. RANKIN. What did he say?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember.

Basically, that I prefer others to him. That I want many things. which he cannot give me. But that was not so. Once we had a quarrel because I had a young man who was a boyfriend--this was before we were married, a boy who was in love with me, and I liked him, too. And I had written him a letter from here. I had---I wrote him that I was very lonely here, that Lee had changed a great deal, and that I was sorry that I had not married him instead, that it would have been much easier for me. I had mailed that letter showing the post office box as a return address. But this was just the time when the postage rates went up by one cent, and the letter was returned. Lee brought that letter and asked me what it was and forced me to read it. But I refused. Then he sat down across from me and started to read it to me. I was very much ashamed of my foolishness. And, of course, he hit me, but he did not believe that this letter was sincere. He asked me if it was true or not, and I told him that it was true. But he thought that I did it only in order to tease him. And that was the end of it. It was a very ill-considered thing.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall anything more that he said at that time about that matter?

Mrs. OSWALD. Of course after he hit me, he said that I should be ashamed of myself for saying such things because he was very much in love with me. But this was after he hit me.

Generally, I think that was right, for such things, that is the right thing to do. There was some grounds for it.

Please excuse me. Perhaps I talk too much.

Mr. RANKIN. When you had your child baptized, did you discuss that with your husband?

Mrs. OSWALD. I knew that Lee was not religious, and, therefore, I did not tell him about it. I lived in Fort Worth at that time, while he lived in Dallas. But when June was baptized, I told him about it, and he didn't say anything about it. He said it was my business. And he said, "Okay, if you wish." He had nothing against it. He only took offense at the fact that I hadn't told him about it ahead of time.

Mr. RANKIN. Are you a member of any church?

Mrs. OSWALD. I believe in God, of course, but I do not go to church---first because I do not have a car. And, secondly, because there is only one Russian Church. Simply that I believe in God in my own heart, and I don't think it is necessary to visit the church.

Mr. RANKIN. While your husband---or while you were visiting the Halls, did your husband tell you about getting his job in Dallas?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. I knew about it before he left for Dallas, that he already had work there.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall whether your husband rented the apartment in Dallas about November 3, 1962?

Mrs. OSWALD. For him?

Mr. RANKIN. Yes.

Mrs. OSWALD. He had told me that he rented a room, not an apartment. But that was in October.

What date I don't know.

Mr. RANKIN. And had he obtained an apartment before you went to Dallas to live with him?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. Cleaned everything up.

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Mr. RANKIN. So that you would have gone to Dallas to live with him some time on or about the date that he rented that apartment?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. After you went to live with him in the apartment at Dallas, did you separate from him again and go to live with somebody else?

Mrs. OSWALD. Only after this quarrel. Then I stayed with my friends for one week. I had already told you about that.

Mr. RANKIN. That is the Meller matter?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall that you called Mrs. Meller and told her about your husband beating you and she told you to get a cab and come to stay with her?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, but he didn't beat me.

Mr. RANKIN. And you didn't tell her that he had heat you, either?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't think so. Perhaps she understood it that he had beaten me, because it had happened.

Mr. RANKIN. Can you give us any more exact account of where your husband stayed in the period between October 10 and November 18, 1962?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember his exact address. This was a period when I did not live with him.

I am asking about which period. is it. I don't remember the dates.

Mr. RANKIN. The period that he rented the apartment was November 3, so that shortly after that, as I understood your testimony, you were with him, from November 3, or about November 3 on to the 18th. Is that right?

Mrs. OSWALD. From November 3 to November 18, 1962? On Elsbeth Street? No, I was there longer.

Mr. RANKIN. And do you recall the date that you went to Mrs. Hairs, then?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, I don't remember. The day when he rented the apartment was a Sunday. But where he lived before that, I don't know.

Mr. RANKIN. After you went to live with him in the apartment, around November 3, how long did you stay before you went to live with your friend?

Mrs. OSWALD. Approximately a month and a half. Perhaps a month. I am not sure.

Mr. RANKIN. And when you were at Fort Worth, and he was living in Dallas, did he call you from time to time on the telephone?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, he called me and he wrote letters and sometimes he came for a visit.

Mr. RANKIN. And during that time, did he tell you where. he was staying?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, he said that he had rented a room, but he did not tell me his address.

I want to help you, but I don't know.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you think there was something in your husband's life in America, his friends and so forth, that caused him to be different here?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, he had no friends who had any influence over him. He himself had changed by comparison to the way he was in Russia. But what the reason for that was, I don't know. Am I giving sufficient answers to your questions?

Mr. RANKIN. You are doing fine. Did your consideration of a divorce from your husband have anything to do with his ideas and political opinions?

Mrs. OSWALD. No. The only reasons were personal ones with reference to our personal relationship, not political reasons.

Mr. RANKIN. In your story you say that what was involved was some of his crazy ideas and political opinions. Can you tell us what you meant by that?

Mrs. OSWALD. This was after the case, after the matter of the divorce. I knew that Lee had such political leanings.

Mr. RANKIN. With regard to your Russian friends, did you find the time when they came less to see you and didn't show as much interest in you?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Can you give us about the time, just approximately when you noticed that difference?

Mrs. OSWALD. Soon after arriving in Dallas. Mostly it was De Mohrenschildt

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who visited us. He was the only one who remained our friend. The others sort of removed themselves.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know why that was?

Mrs. OSWALD. Because they saw that Lee's attitude towards them was not very proper, he was not very hospitable, and he was not glad to see them. They felt that he did not like them.

Mr. RANKIN. Will you describe what you observed that caused you to think this, or how your husband acted in regard to these friends?

Mrs. OSWALD. He told me that he did not like them, that he did not want them to come to visit.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he show any signs of that attitude towards them?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, he was not very talkative when they came for a visit. Sometimes he would even quarrel with them.

Mr. RANKIN. When he quarreled with them, was it in regard to political ideas or what subjects?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, they would not agree with him when he talked on political matters.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall any conversation that you can describe to us?

Mrs. OSWALD. Of course it is difficult to remember all the conversations. But I know that they had a difference of opinion with reference to political matters. My Russian friends did not approve of everything. I am trying to formulate it more exactly. They did not like the fact that he was an American who had gone to Russia. I think that is all. All that I can remember.

Mr. RANKIN. What did they say about----

Mrs. OSWALD. Excuse me. Simply I would be busy, and I didn't listen to the conversation.

Mr. RANKIN. Can you recall anything else about the conversation or the substance of it?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. When did you first consider the possibility of returning to the Soviet Union?

Mrs. OSWALD. I never considered that, but I was forced to because Lee insisted on it.

Mr. RANKIN. When you considered it, as you were forced to, by his insistence, do you know when it was with reference to your first request to the Embassy, which was February 17, 1963?

Mrs. OSWALD. February 17?

Mr. RANKIN. Yes.

Mrs. OSWALD. I think it was a couple of weeks before that, at the beginning of February.

Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband know about the letter you sent to the Embassy on February 17?

Mrs. OSWALD. Of course. He handed me the paper, a pencil, and said, "Write."

Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you what to put in the letter, or was that your own drafting?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, I knew myself what I had to write, and these were my words. What could I do if my husband didn't want to live with me? At least that is what I thought.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever have arguments with your husband about smoking and drinking wine, other things like that?

Mrs. OSWALD. About drinking wine, no. But he didn't like the fact that I smoked, because he neither smoked nor drank. It would have been better if he had smoked and drank.

Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell us approximately when you first met Ruth Paine?

Mrs. OSWALD. Soon after New Years I think it was in January.

Mr. RANKIN. Would that be 1963?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Can you describe the circumstances when you met her?

Mrs. OSWALD. We were invited, together with George De Mohrenschildt and his wife, to the home of his friend, an American. And Ruth was acquainted with that American. She was also visiting there. And there were a number of other people there, Americans.

Page 36

Mr. RANKIN. Who was this friend? Do you recall?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember his last name. If you would suggest, perhaps I could say.

Mr. RANKIN. Was that Mr. Glover?

Mrs. OSWALD. What is his first name?

Mr. RANKIN. Everett

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. I don't know his last name.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you talk to Mrs. Paine in Russian at that time?

Mrs. OSWALD. A little, yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Did Mrs. Paine ever visit you at Elsbeth Street?

Mrs. OSWALD. At Neely, on Neely Street.

Mr. RANKIN. But not at Elsbeth?

Mrs. OSWALD. We moved soon after that acquaintance.

Mr. RANKIN. How did your husband treat June? Was he a good father?

Mrs. OSWALD. Oh, yes, very good.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you notice any difference in his attitude towards your child after you saw this change in his personality?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Will you describe to the Commission how your husband treated the baby, and some of his acts, what he did?

Mrs. OSWALD. He would walk with June, play with her, feed her, change diapers, take photographs everything that fathers generally do.

Mr. RANKIN. He showed considerable affection for her at all times, did he?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. If I would punish June, he would punish me.

Mr. RANKIN. When did you first meet Michael Paine?

Mrs. OSWALD. After I became acquainted with Ruth and she visited me for the first time, she asked me to come for a visit to her. This was on a Friday. Her husband, Michael, came for us and drove us to their home in Irving.

Mr. RANKIN. They were living together at that time, were they?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Did Michael Paine know Russian?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. At the time of the Walker incident, do you recall whether your husband had his job or had lost it?

Mrs. OSWALD. You had said that this had happened on a Wednesday, and it seems to me that it was on a Friday that he was told that he was discharged. He didn't tell me about it until Monday.

Mr. RANKIN. But it was on the preceding Friday that he was discharged, was it not?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, not the preceding Friday--the Friday after the incident. That is what he told me.

Mr. RANKIN. If he had lost his job before the Walker incident, you didn't know it then?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. On the day of the Walker shooting did he appear to go to work as usual?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. And when did he return that day, do you recall?

Mrs. OSWALD. Late at night, about 11.

Mr. RANKIN. He did not come home for dinner then, before?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, he had come home, and then left again.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you notice any difference in his actions when he returned home and had dinner?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he appear to be excited, nervous?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, he was quite calm. But it seemed to me that inside he was tense.

Mr. RANKIN. How could you tell that?

Mrs. OSWALD. I could tell by his face. I knew Lee. Sometimes when some thing would happen. he wouldn't tell me about it, but I could see it in his eyes, that something had happened.

Mr. RANKIN. And you saw it this day, did you?

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Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. When did he leave the home after dinner?

Mrs. OSWALD. I think it was about 7. Perhaps 7:30.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you observe whether he took any gun with him?

Mrs. OSWALD. No. He went downstairs. We lived on the second floor. He said, "Bye-bye."

Mr. RANKIN. Did you look to see if the gun had been taken when he did not return?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, I didn't look to see.

Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chairman, we have gone our hour.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes. I think we will take a 10 minute recess now, so you might refresh yourself.

Mrs. OSWALD. Thank you.

(Brief recess.)

The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will be in order. Mr. Rankin, you may continue.

Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, you told us about your knowledge about the trip to Mexico and said that you were under oath and were going to tell us all about what you knew.

Did your husband ever ask you not to disclose what you knew about the Mexican trip?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. And when was that?

Mrs. OSWALD. Before he left. I had remained and he was supposed to leave on the next day, and he warned me not to tell anyone about it.

Mr. RANKIN. After he returned to Dallas from his Mexico trip, did he say anything to you then about not telling he had been to Mexico?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, he asked me whether I had told Ruth about it or anyone else, and I told him no, and he said that I should keep quiet about it.

Mr. RANKIN. I will hand you Exhibit 1 for identification, and ask you if you recall seeing that document before.

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, this is the note that I found in connection with the Walker incident.

Mr. RANKIN. That you already testified about?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. And there is attached to it a purported English translation.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you want that marked and introduced at this time, Mr. Rankin?

Mr. RANKIN. Yes, I would like to offer the document.

The CHAIRMAN. The document may be marked Exhibit 1 and offered in evidence.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 1, and received in evidence.)

Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell us what your husband meant when he said on that note, "The Red Cross also will help you."

Mrs. OSWALD. I understand that if he were arrested and my money would run out, I would be able to go to the Red Cross for help.

Mr. RANKIN. Had you ever discussed that possibility before you found the note?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know why he left you the address book?

Mrs. OSWALD. Because it contained the addresses and telephone numbers of his and my friends in Russia and here.

Mr. RANKIN. And you had seen that book before and knew its contents, did you?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. I will hand you Exhibit 2 for identification and ask you if you know what that is.

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether or not that is a photograph of the Walker house in Dallas?

Mrs. OSWALD. I didn't see it--at least--taken from this view I can't recognize

731-217 O--64--vol.I---4

Page 38

it. I know that the photograph of Walker's home which I saw showed a two-story house. But I don't recognize it from this view. I never saw the house itself at any time in my life.

Mr. RANKIN. Does Exhibit 2 for identification appear to be the picture that you described yesterday of the Walker house that you thought your husband had taken and put in his book?

Mrs. OSWALD. No. Perhaps this was in his notebook. But I don't remember this particular one.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Rankin, do you want this in the record?

Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chairman, she hasn't been able to identify that sufficiently.

Mrs. OSWALD. Excuse me. Perhaps there are some other photographs there that I might be able to recognize.

Mr. RANKIN. I will present some more to you, and possibly you can then pick out the Walker house.

Mrs. OSWALD. I know these photographs.

Mr. RANKIN. I now hand you a photograph which has been labeled Exhibit 4 for identification. I ask if you can identify the subject of that photograph, or those photographs.

Mrs. OSWALD. All of them?

Mr. RANKIN. Whichever ones you can.

Mrs. OSWALD. I know one shows Walker's house. Another is a photograph from Leningrad. P-3---this is probably New Orleans. P 4 Leningrad. It is a photograph showing the castle square in Leningrad.

Mr. RANKIN. Can you point out by number the photograph of the Walker house?

Mrs. OSWALD. P-2.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether the photographs on Exhibit 4 for identification were part of your husband's photographs?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chairman, I offer Exhibit 4 for identification in evidence.

The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit 2, and received in evidence.)

Mr. DULLES. What is being offered---the whole of it, or just P-2?

Mr. RANKIN. No, all of it--because she identified the others, too, as a part of the photographs that belonged to her husband. And she pointed out P-2 as being the Walker residence.

When did you first see this photograph of the Walker residence, P-2, in this Exhibit 2?

Mrs. OSWALD. After the Walker incident Lee showed it to me.

Mr. RANKIN. And how did you know it was a photograph of the Walker residence?

Mrs. OSWALD. He told me that.

Mr. RANKIN. I hand you Exhibit 3 for identification. I ask you if you can identify the photographs there.

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, these are all our photographs. P-1 is Walker's house. P-4 and P-3 is a photograph showing me and a girlfriend of mine in Minsk, after a New Year's party, on the morning, on January 1. Before I was married. This was taken early in the morning, after we had stayed overnight in the suburbs. P-5 shows Paul--Pavel Golovachev. He is assembling a television set. He sent us this photograph. He is from Minsk. He worked in the same factory as Lee did.

Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell us which one is the picture of the Walker house on that exhibit?

Mrs. OSWALD. P-1.

Mr. RANKIN. And when did you first see that exhibit, P-1, of Exhibit 3?

Mrs. OSWALD. Together with the other one P-2 and P-6, I know that they are Lee's photographs, but I don't know what they depict.

Mr. RANKIN. Were you shown the P-1 photograph of that Exhibit 3 at the same time you were shown the other one that you have identified regarding the Walker house?

Page 39

Mrs. OSWALD. It seems to me that that is so. I don't remember exactly. It is hard to remember.

Mr. RANKIN. And was that the evening after your husband returned from the Walker shooting?

Mrs. OSWALD. No. This was on one of the succeeding days.

Mr. RANKIN. By succeeding, you mean within two or three days after the shooting?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chairman, I offer in evidence Exhibit 3.

The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 3, and was received in evidence.)

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember the photograph, the first one that you showed me. I only assumed that was Walker's house.

Mr. RANKIN. But the other ones, you do remember those photographs?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, the others I do.

Mr. RANKIN. When you say you do not remember the picture of the Walker house, you are referring to the Exhibit 2 for identification that we did not offer in evidence, that I will show you now?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall that your husband showed you any other exhibits that were pictures of the Walker house at the time he discussed the Walker shooting with you, beyond those that I have shown you?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. I shall hand you Exhibit----

Mrs. OSWALD. There was some railroad--not just a photograph of a house. Perhaps there were some others. There were several photographs.

Mr. RANKIN. I shall hand you Exhibit 4 for identification.

Mrs. OSWALD. One photograph with a car.

Mr. RANKIN. ----if you can recall the photographs on that exhibit.

Mrs. OSWALD. As for P-1 and P-2, I don't know what they are.

P-3, that is Lee in the Army.

P-4, I don't know what that is.

P-5, I did see this photograph with Lee-- he showed it to me after the incident.

Mr. RANKIN. When your husband showed you the photograph P-5, did he discuss with you what that showed, how it related to the Walker shooting?

Mrs. OSWALD. No. I simply see that this is a photograph of a railroad. It was in that book. And I guessed, myself, that it had some sort of relationship to the incident.

Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence photographs P-3 and P-5 on this exhibit.

The CHAIRMAN. They may be admitted, and take the next number.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 4, and received in evidence.)

Mr. RANKIN. Now, I shall hand you Exhibit 6 for identification and ask you if you recognize those two photographs.

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. These photographs I know, beth of them. They seem to be identical. Walker's house.

Mr. RANKIN. When did you first see those exhibits?

Mrs. OSWALD. After the incident.

Mr. RANKIN. About the same time that you saw the other pictures of the Walker house that you have described?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband tell you why he had these photographs?

Mrs. OSWALD. He didn't tell me, but I guessed, myself--I concluded myself that these photographs would help him in that business.

Mr. RANKIN. That is the business of the shooting at the Walker house?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence the two photographs in this exhibit.

The CHAIRMAN. They may be admitted and take the next number.

(The documents referred to were marked Commission Exhibit No. 5, and received in evidence.)

Page 40

Mr. RANKIN Before you told the Commission about the Walker shooting, and your knowledge, did you tell anyone else about it?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, to the members of the Secret Service and the FBI.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you tell your mother-in-law?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I also told his mother about it.

Mr. RANKIN. When did you tell his mother about the incident?

Mrs. OSWALD. After Lee was arrested, on Saturday--he was arrested on Friday. I don't remember when I met with his mother--whether it was on the same Friday--yes, Friday evening. I met her at the police station. From there we went to Ruth Paine's where I lived at that time. And she remained overnight, stayed overnight there. I had a photograph of Lee with the rifle, which I gave. At that time I spoke very little English. I explained as best could about it. And that is why I showed her the photograph. And I told her that Lee had wanted to kill Walker.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, turning to the period when you were in New Orleans, did you write to the Russian Embassy about going to Russia, returning to Russia at that time?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Was that about the first part of July, that you wrote?

Mrs. OSWALD. Probably.

Mr. RANKIN. And then did you write a second letter to follow up the first one?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. I hand you Exhibit 6 for identification and ask you if that is the first letter that you sent to the Embassy. Take your time and look at it.

Mrs. OSWALD. This was not the first letter, but it was the first letter written from New Orleans.

Mr. RANKIN. Will you examine the photostat that has just been handed to you, and tell us whether or not that was the first letter that you wrote to the Embassy about this matter?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, this is a reply to my first letter.

Mr. RANKIN. Will you examine the one that you now have, and state whether that is the first letter?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, this was the first. This was only the declaration. But there was a letter in addition to it.

Mr. RANKIN. The declaration was a statement that you wished to return to the Soviet Russia?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, about granting me a visa.

Mr. RANKIN. And what date does that bear?

Mrs. OSWALD. It is dated March 17, 1963.

Mr. RANKIN. And did you send it with your letter about the date that it bears?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

I don't know--perhaps a little later, because I was not very anxious to send this.

Mr. RANKIN. But you did send it?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. And it might have been within a few days or a few weeks of that time?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. Do we have the date of the second letter?

Mr. RANKIN. I want to go step by step.

Mr. DULLES. Yes, I understand. That is not introduced yet.

Mr. RANKIN. It might be confusing if we get them out of order.

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, this is the first letter.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, the photostatic document that you have just referred to as being the first letter, does it bear a date?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall the date?

Mrs. OSWALD. It says there the 17th of February.

Mr. RANKIN. And do you know that that letter had attached to it your declaration that you just referred to?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, it seems to me. Perhaps it was attached to the next letter. I am not sure.

Page 41

Mr. RANKIN. This letter of February 17 that you referred to as the first letter is in your handwriting?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Will you examine the translation into English that is attached to it and inform us whether or not that is a correct translation?

Mrs. OSWALD. I can't do that, because----

Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Interpreter, can you help us in that regard, and tell her whether it is a correct translation?

Mr. KRIMER. If I may translate it from the English, she could check it.

Mr. RANKIN. Would you kindly do that?

Mrs. OSWALD. That is a quite correct translation. I didn't want to, but I had to compose some such letters.

Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence the photostatic copy of the letter in Russian as Exhibit 6.

The CHAIRMAN. Together with the translation that is attached to it?

Mr. RANKIN. Together with the translation that is attached to it as Exhibit 7.

The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted and take the next number.

(The documents referred to were marked Commission Exhibit Nos. 6 and 7, respectively, and received in evidence.)

Mr. RANKIN. I hand you again the declaration, Exhibit 8, and ask you if that accompanied the first letter, Exhibit 6, that you have referred to?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember whether it accompanied the first letter or the second letter with which I had enclosed some photographs and filled out questionnaires.

Mr. RANKIN. I hand you Exhibit 9 and ask you if that is the second letter that you have just referred to.

Mrs. OSWALD. No, this was perhaps the third. Perhaps I could help you, if you would show me all the letters, I would show you the sequence.

Mr. RANKIN. I hand you Exhibit 9, dated March 8, 1963, and ask you if you can tell whether that is the letter which accompanied the declaration.

Mrs. OSWALD. This is a reply from the Embassy, a reply to my first letter.

Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chairman, may we have a short recess to get the original exhibits that we have prepared, and I think we can expedite our hearing.

The CHAIRMAN. Very well. We will have a short recess.

(Brief recess.)

The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will come to order. We will proceed.

Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, we will see if we have these in proper order now.

I will call your attention to the photostats of the declaration and the accompanying papers that I shall now call Exhibit 8 to replace the references to Exhibit 8 and 9 that we made in prior testimony, and ask you to examine that and see if they were sent together by you to the Embassy.

Mrs. OSWALD. I sent this after I received an answer from the Embassy, an answer to my first letter. This is one and the same. Two separate photostats of the same declaration. All of these documents were attached to my second letter after the answer to my first.

Mr. RANKIN. I call your attention to Exhibit 9, and ask you if that is the answer to your first letter that you have just referred to.

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, this is the answer to that letter.

Mr. RANKIN. Will you compare the translation?

Mrs. OSWALD. The only thing is that the address and the telephone number of the Embassy are not shown in the Russian original. They are in the translation.

Mr. RANKIN. Otherwise the translation is correct, is it?

Mrs. OSWALD. Otherwise, yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chairman, I ask leave to substitute the Exhibit No. 8 for what I have called 9, as the reply of the Embassy, so that we won't be confused about the order of these.

The CHAIRMAN. The correction may be made.

Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence the original and the translation of Exhibit 8, except for the address of the Embassy, which was not on the original.

The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted, and take the next number.

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(The documents referred to were marked Commission Exhibit No. 8, and received in evidence.)

Mr. RANKIN. Now, as I understand, what I will call Exhibit 9 now, to correct the order in which these letters were sent to the Embassy, was your response to the letter of the Embassy dated March 8, is that correct?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. Will you compare the translation with the interpreter and advise us if it is correct?

Mr. KRIMER. It says, "Application" in the translation; the Russian word is "Declaration".

Mr. RANKIN. Will you note that correction, Mr. Krimer, please?

Mr. KRIMER. In pencil?

Mr. RANKIN. Yes

Mr. KRIMER. Crossing out the word "application".

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. KRIMER. Sir, this was a printed questionnaire, and there is a translator note on here which states that since printed questions are given beth in Russian and English translation, only the answer portion of the document is being translated.

Mrs. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. RANKIN. You have now examined Exhibit 9 and the translation into English from that exhibit where it was in Russian and compared them with the interpreter, have you?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, correct.

Mr RANKIN. Do you find the translation is correct?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 9, being the Russian communications, and the English translations.

The CHAIRMAN. The documents may be admitted with the next number.

(The documents referred to were marked Commission Exhibit No. 9, and received in evidence.)

Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, do you recall that in the letter from the Embassy of March 8, which is known as Commission's Exhibit 8, that you were told that the time of processing would take 5 to 6 months?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes

Mr. RANKIN. Did you discuss that with your husband?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. And about when did you do that?

Mrs. OSWALD. What is the date of that letter?

Mr. RANKIN. March 8.

Mrs. OSWALD. At that time we did not discuss it. We discussed it in New Orleans. Or more correctly, we thought that if everything is in order, I would be able to leave before the birth of my second child.

Mr. RANKIN. And did you discuss that idea with your husband?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. And you think that you discussed it with him while you were at New Orleans?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall that it is also requested in the letter of March 8 from the Embassy, Commission's Exhibit 8, that you furnish one or two letters from relatives residing in the Soviet Union who were inviting you to live with them?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, but I didn't have any such letters and I did not enclose any.

Mr. RANKIN. You never did send such letters to the Embassy, did you?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. After you sent Exhibit 9 to the Embassy, did you have further correspondence with them?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. I will hand you Exhibit 10, a letter purporting to be from the Embassy dated April 18, and ask you if you recall that.

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I remember that.

Mr. RANKIN. Will you please compare the translation with the Russian?

Page 43

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, the translation is correct.

Mr. RANKIN. We offer the exhibit in evidence, together with the translation.

The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted with the next number.

(The documents referred to were marked Commission Exhibit No. 10, and received in evidence.)

Mr. RANKIN. Did you note that the Embassy invited you to come and visit them personally?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever do that?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. I hand you a letter purporting to be from the Embassy, dated June 4, marked Exhibit 11, and ask you if you recall receiving that?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. This is a second request to visit the Embassy.

Mr. RANKIN. Will you please compare the translation with the Russian?

Mrs. OSWALD. Correct.

Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibit 11, being the Russian letter from the Embassy together with the English translation.

The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted and take the next number.

(The documents referred to were marked Commission Exhibit No. 11, and received in evidence.)

The CHAIRMAN. We will now recess for lunch. The Commission will reconvene at 2 o'clock.

(Whereupon, at 12:30 p.m., the Commission recessed.)

Afternoon Session

TESTIMONY OF MRS. LEE HARVEY OSWALD RESUMED

The President's Commission reconvened at 2 p.m.

The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will convene. Mr. Rankin, you may continue.

Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, I will now give you Exhibit 12 to examine and ask you to compare the Russian with the English translation.

Mrs. OSWALD. The translation is correct.

Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 12, being the Russian letter, and the English translation.

The CHAIRMAN. The documents are admitted under that number.

(The documents referred to were marked Commission Exhibit No. 12, and received in evidence.)

Mr. RANKIN. Now, this Exhibit 13 that you. have just examined in Russian, is that your letter, Mrs. Oswald, to the Embassy?

Mrs. OSWALD. Is that No. 12?

Mr. RANKIN. Yes.

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, it is.

Mr. RANKIN. And is it in your handwriting?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you find any date on the letter? I didn't.

Mrs. OSWALD. I probably didn't date it. No. I wrote this from New Orleans.

Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell the Commission the approximate date you wrote it?

Mrs. OSWALD. What Was the date of the preceding letter, No. 11--Exhibit No. 11?

Mr. RANKIN. June 4, 1963.

Mrs. OSWALD. This was probably in July, but I don't know the date.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you notice there was a "P.S." on Exhibit 12?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Referring to an application by your husband?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. And was an application for your husband for a visa included or enclosed with Exhibit 12 when you sent it?

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Mrs. OSWALD. Lee told me that he had sent an application, but it was he who put this letter in an envelope and addressed it, so I don't know whether it was there or not.

Mr. RANKIN. And when you say that it was he that put the letter into the envelope and addressed it, you mean this Exhibit 12, that was a letter that you had written?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes

Mr. RANKIN. Do I understand you correctly that you do not know whether his application was included because he handled the mailing of it?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. I will hand you Exhibit 13 and ask you if you recall that?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember this. He did not write this in my presence. But it is Lee's handwriting.

Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Krimer, will you please translate it for her so she will know the contents.

Mrs. OSWALD. Why "separately"--the word "separately" here is underlined.

Mr. RANKIN. I was going to ask you. But since you have not seen it before, I guess you cannot help us.

Is this the first time that you knew that he had ever asked that his visa be handled separately from yours?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I didn't know this. Because I hadn't seen this letter.

Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 13.

The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 13, and received in evidence.)

Mr. RANKIN. Is the word "separately" the last word of the letter that you are referring to--that is the word that you asked about?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. Was that underlined by Lee?

Mr. RANKIN. That is the way we received it, Mrs. Oswald. We assume it was underlined by your husband. We know that it was not underlined by the Commission, and no one in the Government that had anything to do with it has ever told us that they had anything to do with underlining it.

Mrs. OSWALD. I think that perhaps he asked for that visa to be considered separately because the birth of the child might complicate matters, and perhaps he thought it would speed it up if they do consider it separately.

Mr. RANKIN. In connection with that thought, I will hand you Exhibit 14, and ask you to examine that and tell us whether you have seen that before.

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Will you please compare the translation in English?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, the translation is all right.

Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence the letter in Russian, Exhibit 14, and the English translation.

The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted under that number.

(The documents referred to were marked Commission Exhibit No. 14, and received in evidence.)

Mr. RANKIN. Did you have any impression that your husband may not have planned to go back to Russia himself, but was merely trying to arrange for you and your daughter to go back?

Mrs. OSWALD. At that time I did not think so, but now I think perhaps. Because he planned to go to Cuba.

Mr. RANKIN. By that you mean you think he may have planned to go to Cuba and never go beyond Cuba, but stay in Cuba?

Mrs. OSWALD. I think that in time he would have wanted to come and see me.

Mr. RANKIN. I hand you Exhibit 15 and ask you whether you remember having seen that before.

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell whether your husband's handwriting is on that exhibit?

Mrs. OSWALD. The signature is his, yes. I would like to have it translated.

Mr. RANKIN. Would you translate it for her, please, Mr. Krimer?

Mrs. OSWALD. A crazy letter. Perhaps from this I could conclude that he did want to go to the Soviet Union--but now I am lost, I don't know. Because----

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perhaps because nothing came out of his Cuban business, perhaps that is why he decided to go to the Soviet Union. The letter is not too polite, in my opinion.

Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 15.

The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 15, and received in evidence.)

Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chief Justice, I think in the examination about this letter, if I would circulate it to the Commission it would be a little clearer what it is all about--if you could have a moment or two to examine it, I think it would help in your understanding of the examination.

Mrs. OSWALD. This was typed on the typewriter belonging to Ruth.

Mr. RANKIN. You can tell that by the looks of the typing, can you, Mrs. Oswald?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, I don't know, but I know that he was typing there. I don't know what he was typing.

Mr. RANKIN. And it is Ruth Paine's typewriter that you are referring to, when you say Ruth?

Mrs. OSWALD. Ruth Paine. Because Lee did not have a typewriter, and it is hardly likely that he would have had it typed somewhere else.

Mr. RANKIN. I hand you Exhibit 16, which purports to be the envelope for the letter, Exhibit 15. Have you ever seen that?

Mrs. OSWALD. The envelope I did see. I did not see the letter, but I did see the envelope. Lee had retyped it some 10 times or so.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall or could you clarify for us about the date on the envelope--whether it is November 2 or November 12?

Mrs. OSWALD. November 12.

Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 16.

The CHAIRMAN. may be admitted.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 16, and received in evidence.)

Mr. RANKIN. I might call your attention, Mrs. Oswald, to the fact that Exhibit 15, the letter, is dated November 9. Does that help you any?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. Then this must be 12.

Mr. RANKIN. That is the only way you can determine it, is it?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you have anything to do with the mailing of this letter, Exhibit 15?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Yesterday you testified to the fact that your husband told you about his trip to Mexico when he returned, is that right?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Where were you when he told you about it?

Mrs. OSWALD. In the home of Mrs. Paine, in my room.

Mr. RANKIN. Was there anyone other than yourself and your husband present when he told you about it?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Will you tell us in as much detail AS you can remember just what he said about the trip at that time?

Mrs. OSWALD. Everything that I could remember I told you yesterday. I don't remember any more about it.

Mr. RANKIN. At that time----

Mrs. OSWALD. But I asked him that we not go to Russia, I told him that I did not want to, and he said, "Okay."

Mr. RANKIN. That was in this same conversation, after he had told you about the trip to Mexico?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. When he asked you not to tell anyone about the trip to Mexico, did he tell you why he asked you to do that?

Mrs. OSWALD. No. I knew that he was secretive, and that he loved to make secrets of things.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you know the Comrade Kostin that is referred to in this letter of November 8, Exhibit 15?

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Mrs. OSWALD. I never wrote to him. I don't know. I don't know where he got that name from.

Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband say anything about Comrade Kostin and his visit with him at the embassy in Mexico City, when he told you about the trip?

Mrs. OSWALD. He did not name him. He didn't tell me his name. But he told me he was a very pleasant, sympathetic person, who greeted him, welcomed him there.

Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband say anything to you about what he meant when he said he could not take a chance on requesting a new visa unless he used a real name, so he returned to the United States?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, he didn't tell me about

Mr. RANKIN. Did you understand that he had used any assumed name about going to Mexico?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. He never told you anything of that kind?

Mrs. OSWALD. No. After Lee returned from Mexico, I lived in Dallas, and Lee gave me his phone number and then when he changed his apartment--Lee lived in Dallas, and he gave me his phone number. And then when he moved, he left me another phone number.

And once when he did not come to visit during the weekend, I telephoned him and asked for him by name rather, Ruth telephoned him and it turned out there was no one there by that name. When he telephoned me again on Monday, I told him that we had telephoned him but he was unknown at that number.

Then he said that he had lived there under an assumed name. He asked me to remove the notation of the telephone number in Ruth's phone book, but I didn't want to do that. I asked him then, "Why did you give us a phone number, when we do call we cannot get you by name?"

He was very angry, and he repeated that I should remove the notation of the phone number from the phone book. And, of course, we had a quarrel. I told him that this was another of his foolishness, some more of his foolishness. I told Ruth Paine about this. It was incomprehensible to me why he was so secretive all the time.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he give you any explanation of why he was using an assumed name at that time?

Mrs. OSWALD. He said that he did not want his landlady to know his real name because she might read in the paper of the fact that he had been in Russia and that he had been questioned.

Mr. RANKIN. What did you say about that?

Mrs. OSWALD. Nothing. And also he did not want the FBI to know where he lived.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you why he did not want the FBI to know where he lived?

Mrs. OSWALD. Because their visits were not very pleasant for him and he thought that he loses jobs because the FBI visits the place of his employment.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, if he was using an assumed name during the trip in Mexico, you didn't know about it, is that correct?

Mrs. OSWALD. I didn't know, that is correct.

Mr. RANKIN. Before the trip to Mexico, did your husband tell you that he did not expect to contact the Soviet Embassy there about the visa?

Mrs. OSWALD. He said that he was going to visit the Soviet Embassy, but more for the purpose of getting to Cuba, to try to get to Cuba. I think that was more than anything a masking of his purpose. He thought that this would help.

Mr. RANKIN. You mean it was a masking of his purpose to visit the Soviet Embassy in Mexico, or to write it in this letter?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't understand the question.

Mr. RANKIN. You noticed where he said in this letter "I had not planned to contact the Soviet Embassy in Mexico," did you not?

Mrs. OSWALD. Why hadn't he planned that?

Mr. RANKIN. That is what I am trying to find out from you.

Did he ever tell you that he didn't plan to visit the Soviet Embassy?

Mrs. OSWALD. This is not the truth. He did want to contact the embassy.

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Mr. RANKIN. And he told you before he went to Mexico that he planned to visit the Soviet Embassy, did he?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he ever say to you before he went to Mexico that he planned to communicate with the Soviet Embassy in Havana?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, he said that if he would be able to get to Cuba, with the intention of living there, he would get in touch with the Soviet Embassy for the purpose of bringing me there. Or for him to go to Russia. Because sometimes he really sincerely wanted to go to Russia and live and sometimes not, He did not know, himself. He was very changeable.

Mr. RANKIN. But in Exhibit 15, Mrs. Oswald, he refers to the fact that he hadn't been able to reach the Soviet Embassy in Havana as planned, and then he says, "The Embassy there would have had time to complete our business." Now, did he discuss that at all with you before he went to Mexico?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. If he said in Mexico City that he wanted to visit the Soviet Embassy in Havana, the reason for it was only that he thereby would be able to get to Cuba.

Is this understandable? Does this clarify the matter or not?

Mr. RANKIN. The difficulty, Mrs. Oswald, with my understanding of Exhibit 15 is that he purports to say, as I read the letter, that if he had been able to reach the Soviet Embassy in Havana, he would have been able to complete his business about the visa, and he wouldn't have had to get in touch with the Soviet Embassy in Mexico City at all.

Mrs. OSWALD. The thing is that one cannot go to Cuba--that the only legal way is via Mexico City. And, therefore, he went to the Soviet Embassy there in Mexico City and told them that he wanted to visit the Soviet Embassy in Havana, but only for the purpose of getting into Cuba.

I don't think he would have concluded his business there. I don't think that you understand that Lee has written that letter in a quite involved manner. It is not very logical. I don't know whether it is clear to you or not.

Mr. RANKIN. I appreciate, Mrs. Oswald, your interpretation of it.

I was trying to find out also whether your husband had told you anything about what he meant or what he did or whether he had tried to contact the Embassy in Havana, as he says in this letter.

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. I don't know of this letter. I only know that Lee wanted to get to Cuba by any means.

Mr. RANKIN. Then he next proceeds to say, "Of course the Soviet Embassy was not at fault. They were, as I say, unprepared". As I read that, I understand that he was trying to let the Embassy in Washington know that the Mexico City Embassy had not been notified by him, and, therefore, was unprepared.

Now, did he say anything like that to you after his return to Mexico?

Mrs. OSWALD. Why did the Embassy in Washington have to notify the Embassy in Mexico City that Lee Oswald was arriving?

It is not that I am asking. It seems to me that this is not a normal thing.

Mr. RANKIN. The question is did he say anything to you about it when he got back?

Mrs. OSWALD. He said that when he went to the Soviet Embassy in Mexico City they had promised him that they would write a letter to the Embassy in Washington.

Please excuse me, but it is very difficult for me to read the involved thoughts of Lee.

I think that he was confused himself, and I certainly am.

Mr. RANKIN. Is that all that you can recall that was said about that matter?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Then he goes on to say----

Mrs. OSWALD. Excuse me. I only know that his basic desire was to get to Cuba by any means, and that all the rest of it was window dressing for that purpose.

Mr. RANKIN. Then in this Exhibit 15 he proceeds to say, "The Cuban Consulate was guilty of a gross breach of regulations." Do you know what he meant by that?

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Mrs. OSWALD. What regulations--what are the regulations?

Mr. RANKIN. I am trying to find out from you.

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know about that. I don't know what happened.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he ever say what regulations he thought were breached, or that the Cuban Embassy didn't

carry out regulations when he returned from his trip and told you about what happened there?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know.

Mr. RANKIN. Then he goes on to say in the Exhibit, "I am glad he has since been replaced."

Do you know whom he was referring to?

Mrs. OSWALD. I have no knowledge of it. I think that if the person to whom this letter was addressed would

read the letter he wouldn't understand anything, either.

Mr. RANKIN. Your husband goes on in Exhibit 15 to say, "The Federal Bureau of Investigation is not now

interested in my activities in the progressive organization 'Fair Play for Cuba Committee' of which I was

secretary in New Orleans (State of Louisiana) since I no longer reside in that state." Do you know why he

would say anything like that to the Embassy?

Mrs. OSWALD. Because-he was crazy.

He wrote this in order to emphasize his importance. He was no secretary of any--he was not a secretary of any

organization.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know that he had received any inquiry from the Embassy or anyone of the Soviet Union about the matters that he is telling about here?

Mrs. OSWALD. No. I don't know.

Mr. RANKIN. Then he goes on to say, "However, the FBI has visited us here in Dallas, Texas, on November 1. Agent James P. Hosty"--do you know whether there was such a visit by that man?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. And was he referring to the man that you know as James P. Hosty?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know his last name. He gave us his telephone number, but it seems to me that his name was different.

Mr. RANKIN. After you received the telephone number, what did you do with it?

Mrs. OSWALD. He gave the telephone number to Ruth, and she, in turn, passed it on to Lee.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether he put it in a book or did anything with it?

Mrs. OSWALD. He took the note with him to Dallas. I don't know what he did with it.

Mr. RANKIN. Did the agent also give his license number for his car to Mrs. Paine or to you or to your husband?

Mrs. OSWALD. No. But Lee had asked me that if an FBI agent were to call, that I note down his automobile license number, and I did that.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you give the license number to him when you noted it down?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, he goes on to say that this agent, James P. Hosty "warned me that if I engaged in FPCC activities in Texas the FBI will again take an 'interest' in me."

Do you remember anything about anything like that?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know why he said that in there, because if he has in mind the man who visited us, that man had never seen Lee. He was talking to me and to Mrs. Paine. But he had never met Lee. Perhaps this is another agent, not the one who visited us.

But I don't know whether Lee had talked to him or not.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether any FBI agent had ever warned your husband that if he engaged in any Fair Play for Cuba activities in Texas, the FBI would be again interested in him?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, I didn't know that.

Mr. RANKIN. Then in the exhibit he goes on to say, "This agent also 'suggested' to Marina Nichilyeva that she could remain in the United States under FBI protection."

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Did you ever hear of anything like that before?

Mrs. OSWALD. I had not been proposed anything of the sort at any time.

The only thing the agent did say is that if I had ever any kind of difficulties troubles in the sense that someone would try to force me to do something, to become an agent, then I should get in touch with him, and that if I don't want to do this, that they would help me. But they never said that I live here and that I must remain here under their protection.

Mr. RANKIN. Then in this Exhibit 15 he goes on to explain what he means by the word "protection", saying "That is, she could defect from the Soviet Union, of course." Do you remember anybody saying anything like that to you?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, no one said anything like that.

Mr. RANKIN. Did anyone at any time, while you were in the United States, suggest that you become an agent of any agency of the United States?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, never.

Mr. RANKIN. Did anyone from the Soviet Union suggest that you be an agent for that government, or any of its agencies?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, in this Exhibit 15, your husband goes on to say, "I and my wife strongly protested tactics by the notorious FBI."

Do you know of any protest of that kind, or any action of that kind?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know of any protests, but simply that I said that I would prefer not to get these visits, because they have a very exciting and disturbing effect upon my husband. But it was not a protest. This was simply a request.

Mr. RANKIN. And you never made any protests against anyone asking you to act as an agent or to defect to the United States because no one asked you that, is that right?

Mrs. OSWALD. No one ever asked me.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know of anything that you could tell the Commission in regard to these matters in this letter, Exhibit 15, that would shed more light on what your husband meant or what he was trying to do, that you have not already told us?

Mrs. OSWALD. Everything that I could tell you with reference to this letter have told you.

The CHAIRMAN. I think we will take a short recess now, about 10 minutes.

Mrs. OSWALD. I would like to help you, but I simply don't know, I cannot.

(Brief recess)

The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will be in order. Mr. Rankin, you may proceed.

Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, I will hand you again Exhibit 14 and the translation from the Russian and call your attention to the urgency of your request there. I ask you, was that your idea to press for help from the Embassy in regard to the visa, or your husband's?

Mrs. OSWALD. Of course my husband.

Mr. RANKIN. At the time of Exhibit 14, then, you were not anxious to return to Russia?

Mrs. OSWALD. I never wanted to return but Lee insisted and there is nothing else I could do. But sometimes when I wrote these letters, I felt very lonely--since my husband didn't want me, I felt perhaps this would be the best way.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know the Spanish language?

Mrs. OSWALD. Perhaps five words.

Mr. RANKIN. Have you given it any study?

Mrs. OSWALD. No. I have a Spanish textbook of the Spanish language and I had intended to study even while I was still in Russia, but I never did.

Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband ever study Spanish that you know of?

Mrs. OSWALD. He didn't study it, but before his trip to Mexico he would sit down with the textbook and look at it.

Mr. RANKIN. I hand you Exhibit 17 and ask you if you recall having seen that before.

Mrs. OSWALD. May I take it out?

Mr. RANKIN. Yes.

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Mrs. OSWALD. June seems to have played with it. This was Lees study of Spanish perhaps because this was all photographed, it is soiled. Here I helped Lee. I wrote some Spanish words.

Mr. RANKIN. Does that Exhibit 17 have any of your husband's handwriting on it?

Mrs. OSWALD. Some of it is my handwriting and some of it is Lees handwriting.

Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell us when he was trying to study Spanish? Was it at any time with regard to the time when he planned to go to Cuba?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. About when did he start?

Mrs. OSWALD. In August in New Orleans, 1963.

Mr. RANKIN. And whatever he did in this notebook, Exhibit 17, he did at that time or thereafter?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, this was in September.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he do whatever writing he did in connection with the study of the Spanish language in Exhibit 17 at New Orleans in August or after that date?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Do you want to know whether this was earlier than August or later?

Mr. RANKIN. Yes.

Mrs. OSWALD. No, not earlier. This was in September, not in August.

Mr. RANKIN. And did he do anything in the writing of what is in Exhibit 17 in the study of the Spanish language at Dallas, that you know of?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 17.

The CHAIRMAN. It may be marked with the next number and received in evidence.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 17, and received in evidence.)

Mrs. OSWALD. How a simple notebook can become a matter of material evidence---the Spanish words in it, and June's scribbling on it.

Mr. RANKIN. Returning to the time that your husband came back from Mexico City to Dallas, can you tell us what type of luggage he brought back with him?

Mrs. OSWALD. He had a military type raincoat with him and a small bag with a zipper, blue in color.

Mr. RANKIN. As far as you recall he did not have two bags that he brought back with him from Mexico?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he spend the first weekend of October 4 to 6 with you at the Paines?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, not the whole weekend When he returned he stayed overnight and then he went to Dallas. But he returned on Saturday or Friday evening. And he remained until Monday.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you notice any change in your husband after this trip to Mexico?

Mrs. OSWALD. In my opinion, he was disappointed at not being able to get to Cuba, and he didn't have any great desire to do so any more because he had run into, as he himself said--into bureaucracy and red tape. And he changed for the better. He began to treat me better.

Mr. RANKIN. Will you tell us how he treated you better?

Mrs. OSWALD. He helped me more although he always did help. But he was more attentive. Perhaps this was because he didn't live together with me but stayed in Dallas. Perhaps, also because we expected a child and he was in somewhat an elated mood.

Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband have any money with him when he returned from Mexico?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, he had some left. But I never counted how much money he had in his wallet. That is why I don't know.

Mr. RANKIN. Was it a mall or a large amount or do you know that?

Mrs. OSWALD. What would be a large amount for me would not be a large amount for you.

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Mr. RANKIN. Well, can you give us any estimate of what you think he had?

Mrs. OSWALD. He might have had $50 or $70, thereabouts. It is necessary sometimes to make a joke. Otherwise, it gets boring.

Mr. RANKIN. After the first weekend, after your husband returned, which he spent at the Paines, as you have described, where did he live in Dallas?

Mrs. OSWALD. He said that he rented a room in Oak Cliff, but I don't know the address I didn't ask, because I didn't need it.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know that he lived with a Mrs. Bledsoe at any time in Dallas?

Mrs. OSWALD. In what sense do you mean "lived with"?

Mr. RANKIN. I mean roomed in her home.

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. That was a place on Marsallis Street?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know about it.

Mr. RANKIN. How did he return from Irving to Dallas at that time?

Mrs. OSWALD. Ruth met him at the bus station at that time and drove him home. By bus.

Mr. RANKIN. You said before that you learned about the depository job at some neighbor's home, it that right?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. In whose home was that?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know her last name. When you walk out of the Paine house, it is the first house to the right. I am trying to remember. Perhaps later I will.

Mr. RANKIN. Was it the lady of that house who told you, or someone that was a guest there?

Mrs. OSWALD. Perhaps you know the name.

Mr. RANKIN. We don't know the name of the lady next door. We know a number of names, but not by the location.

Mrs. OSWALD. Her first name is Dorothy. And there was another woman there, another neighbor, who said that her brother worked at the depository, and that as far as she knew, there was a vacancy there.

Mr. RANKIN. And what was the name of that neighbor whose brother worked at the depository?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know.

Mr. RANKIN. Was that Mrs. Randle?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know. I might know her first name if you mention it.

Mr. RANKIN. Is there a Linnie Mae Randle that you remember?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Was she a sister of Mr. Frazier?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know such people.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know a Mr. Frazier that had a job at the depository?

Mrs. OSWALD. I didn't know his name. I knew that it was a young man. I don't think he was 18 yet.

Mr. RANKIN. And was he the brother of this friend who was at the neighbor's house?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. And he was the one that your husband rode from Irving into Dallas from time to time to go to work, did he?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, after Lee was already working this boy would bring Lee and take him back with him to Dallas.

Mr. RANKIN. And when did he take him, ordinarily?

Mrs. OSWALD. 8 o'clock in the morning.

Mr. RANKIN. And did he take him on Monday morning?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Usually each week he would take him on Monday morning?

Mrs. OSWALD. When Lee came for a weekend, yes.

Mr. RANKIN. And then when did he bring him back from Dallas?

Mrs. OSWALD. At 5:30 on Friday.

Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband ever come in the middle of the week?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, only during the last week when all of this happened with reference to the assassination of the President--he came on a Thursday.

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Mr. RANKIN. Did Mrs. Paine have anything to do with your husband getting this job at the depository?

Mrs. OSWALD. She had no direct connection with it, but an indirect connection, of course. I lived with her and she talked to a neighbor and mentioned that Lee was out of work.

Mr. RANKIN. Was it Mrs. Paine that found out about the job, then?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. And she telephoned there and asked whether they had a job available. They didn't say anything specific but they asked that Lee come there on the following day.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you find out whether your husband did go there the following day?

Mrs. OSWALD. On the following day he went there, had a talk with them, and he telephoned that he had already received the job.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he telephone to you or to Mrs. Paine about getting the job?

Mrs. OSWALD. He telephoned me. But, of course, he thanked Ruth.

Mr. RANKIN. And when did he start on the job? Was there two or three days before he got the job and started, or more than that?

Mrs. OSWALD. I think that he started on the day following being accepted for the job. I think it was either on the 14th, 15th, or 16th of October.

Mr. RANKIN. When he was staying at Mrs. Bledsoe's rooming house, did he call you and give you the number there?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall where he was when he gave this fictitious name?

Mrs. OSWALD. What do you mean where he was? From where he telephoned?

Mr. RANKIN. Yes, or the number that he gave you--that is the rooming house that he was at when he used this fictitious name, and you told us you called there.

Mrs. OSWALD. He lived at first in one place, and then he changed. It was the last place where he had given a fictitious name. I don't know what name he lived under in the first place, because I never telephoned him.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know the name that he lived under in the second place, when you did call him?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. You don't remember the fictitious name that he gave you?

Mrs. OSWALD. I read in the paper after everything happened, but at that time I didn't know. He said that his last name was Lee. He didn't say that. I read that in the paper.

Mr. RANKIN. Did that remind you, then, that that was the name they gave you when you called and he answered the telephone?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, No one told me anything. I didn't know under what name he lived there.

Mr. RANKIN. But you found out that he was not living under his own name, is that what you meant before?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. After he got his job, did he return the next weekend to see you?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you remember whether that time he returned was on Friday or Saturday?

Mrs. OSWALD. It was on Friday, October 18. It was his birthday. He stopped with Ruth. On Sunday I went to the hospital, and he stayed overnight from Monday until Tuesday.

Mr. RANKIN. After your husband returned from Mexico, did you examine the rifle in the garage at any time?

Mrs. OSWALD. I had never examined the rifle in the garage. It was wrapped in a blanket and was lying on the floor.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever check to see whether the rifle was in the blanket?

Mrs. OSWALD. I never checked to see that. There was only once that 1 was interested in finding out what was in that blanket, and I saw that it was a rifle.

Mr. RANKIN. When was that?

Mrs. OSWALD. About a week after I came from New Orleans.

Mr. RANKIN. And then you found that the rifle was in the blanket, did you?

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Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, 1 saw the wooden part of it, the wooden stock.

Mr. RANKIN. On the weekend before your husband got his job at the depository, did he spend that with you at the Paines?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he come home Friday or Saturday?

Mrs. OSWALD. On a Friday.

Mr. RANKIN. When he returned to Dallas on Monday, the 14th of October, did he tell you he was going to change his room?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you remember what your husband's pay was at the depository?

Mrs. OSWALD. It seems to me that it was also $1.25.

Mr. RANKIN. About how much a month did it run?

Mrs. OSWALD. It seems to me it was $210 to $230.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall the hours that he worked?

Mrs. OSWALD. It seems that--it seems to me that it was from 8:30 a.m. to 5 p.m.

Mr. RANKIN. And did he work the weekend or any overtime?

Mrs. OSWALD. No. It does happen in that depository that they work overtime. But he did not have to work any.

Mr. RANKIN. During the week when he was in Dallas and you were at Irving, did he call you from time to time?

Mrs. OSWALD. Daily, twice.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he leave his telephone number in Dallas with you?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

I don't have it, it was in Paine's notebook.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he speak to you in Russian when he called you on the telephone?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. Sometimes he would try to speak in English when someone was listening, and he didn't want them to know he spoke Russian--then he would try to speak in English.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he ever speak in Spanish when he was talking to you from Dallas?

Mrs. OSWALD. No. He doesn't speak Spanish. I don't either. His landlady heard him say "Adios" and she decided that he spoke Spanish, because she didn't understand that he had spoken Russian all that time.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you have a special celebration for your husband's birthday?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. When was that?

Mrs. OSWALD. On October 18th.

Mr. RANKIN. Who was there?

Mrs. OSWALD. Ruth and her children, I, Lee, and Paine's husband, Michael.

Mr. RANKIN. Did Wesley Frazier bring your husband home at that time?

Mrs. OSWALD. Frazier is the last name? Wesley was that boy's name. I now remember.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he bring him home that weekend?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember.

It seems to me, yes. It is hard to remember now which weekend was which.

Mr. RANKIN. On these weekends, did you ever observe your husband going to the garage, practicing with the rifle in any way?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you see him leave the house when he could have been going to the garage and practicing with. his rifle?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, he couldn't have practiced while we were at the Paine's, because Ruth was there. But whenever, she was not at home, he tried to spend as much time as he could with me--he would watch television in the house. But he did go to the garage to look at our things that were there.

Mr. RANKIN. And you don't know when he went there what he might have done with the rifle? Is that what you mean?

731-217 O--64--vol.I---5

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Mrs. OSWALD. At least I didn't notice anything.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, you have described your husband's----

Mrs. OSWALD. Excuse me. I think that it takes considerable time to practice with a rifle. He never spent any great deal of time in the garage.

Mr. RANKIN. You have described your husband's practicing on the hack porch at New Orleans with the telescopic scope and the rifle, saying he did that very regularly there.

Did you ever see him working the bolt, that action that opens the rifle, where you can put a shell in and push it back- during those times?

Mrs. OSWALD. I did not see it, because it was dark, and I would be in the room at that time.

But I did hear the noise from it from time to time not often.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall the weekend that you went to the hospital for your baby?

Mrs. OSWALD. Very well.

Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband go with you at that time?

Mrs. OSWALD. No. Ruth drove me at that time. He remained with June because June was crying and we could not leave her with strangers.. He wanted to go with me, but we couldn't arrange it any other way.

Mr. RANKIN. After the baby was born, did he come and see you?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Did. he say anything to you about the baby?

Mrs. OSWALD. Every father talks a lot.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he talk about the baby?

Mrs. OSWALD. About me and the child--he was very happy. He even had tears in his eyes.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he call you from Irving when you were in the hospital?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, he was working at that time, and he called me from work. But I didn't talk to him. He merely asked the nurse how I was doing.

Mr. RANKIN. And those conversations would be reported to you by the nurse, then?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, she didn't tell me about them. Because he telephoned to find out when I should be brought home, and he telephoned Ruth and asked her to let him know. But the nurse did tell me that my husband had called.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, the weekend of October 25th to the 27th, did your husband return to Irving that weekend?

Mrs. OSWALD. There were some weekends when he did not come. But this was at my request. It happened twice, I think. One such weekend was the occasion of the birthday of Mrs. Paine's daughter. And I knew that Lee didn't like Michael, Mrs. Paine's husband, and I asked him not to come.

This was one occasion.

The other I don't recall. I don't recall the date of this. But I remember that the weekend before he shot at the President, he did not come on Saturday and Sunday. Because we had a quarrel--that incident with the fictitious name.

No, I am confused.

It would be easier for me to remember if I knew the birthday of that girl. Perhaps you know. Perhaps you have it noted down somewhere.

Mr. RANKIN. You are asking me the birthday of Mrs. Paine's daughter?

Mrs. OSWALD. Because I know that the FBI questioned me about it, and they had made a note about it. Because they wanted to determine each time when he did come and when did not.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, if it Was the weekend of November 16th and 17th that he remained in Dallas, would that help you as to the time of the birthday?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. This was the weekend before the 21st, and he had not come home that weekend.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, the neighbor next door that you referred to, where you learned about the job with the depository, could that have been Dorothy Roberts?

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Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall that your husband went to some meeting with Michael Paine in October of 1963?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

It seems to me I know for sure that this was one of the Fridays. It seems to me that this was the birthday--it was after dinner. They talked in English. I don't know about what. I know that they got together and went to some kind of a meeting.

Mr. RANKIN. Was that a meeting of the American Civil Liberties Union?

Mrs. OSWALD. Ruth said something about that, but I didn't understand anything. This was right after the incident with Stevenson, who was hit.

Mr. RANKIN. Was that in the weekend of October 25th?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, probably. This was not Lee's birthday. It was the week after that, the following Friday.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, on October 26th, Saturday, was your husband with you all day?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. All day. Whenever he came, he never went anywhere else.

Mr. RANKIN. We had some information that a telescopic sight was fitted to a gun for your husband on that date, and that is why I am asking you if there was any time that he could have left to have that done.

Mrs. OSWALD. How is it about the telescope? He always had the telescope. Were there two?

Mr. RANKIN. We are trying to find out. Someone says that they mounted a sight.

Mrs. OSWALD. This is not the truth, if they say that. Simply people talking. Perhaps someone who looked like Lee.

Mr. RANKIN. Someone may be mistaken and thought that he had mounted a telescopic sight when he did it for someone else. And that is why we want to check with you.

When your husband went back to work on Monday, October 28th, did he drive with Wesley Frazier at that time?

Mrs. OSWALD. It seems--it seems that he had overslept and that someone else had picked him up. But, no--no, I remember that he did not come to get him, but Lee met him near his house. Lee told me that. Or his sister. I don't remember. Lee told me about it. But I have forgotten.

Mr. RANKIN. But he did not go in by bus that day?

Mrs. OSWALD. No. He said his sister drove him to the bus. I only know that this boy did not come to get him that day.

Mr. RANKIN. As far as you know, he may have gone all the way into Dallas in a car, or he may have gone in a bus?

Mrs. OSWALD. Perhaps he hadn't told him to pick him up on that day. I don't know. I only know the fact that the boy did not pick him up on that day.

Mr. RANKIN. We have reports of FBI interviews the last part of October, that is October 29, and also November 1, and November 5. We would like to ask you about them, since some of them may have been with Mrs. Paine in your presence or with you.

Do you recall one on October 29th?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember the interview. Ruth interpreted--she talked to them.

Mr. RANKIN. In order that the Commission will understand, whenever the FBI would try to ask you any questions, Mrs. Paine would interpret for you?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. And would she at the same time answer things in English, too, herself?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. So, in effect, the FBI was----

Mrs. OSWALD. Excuse me--she loves to talk.

Mr. RANKIN. The FBI was interviewing both of you at the same time, to some extent, is that right?

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Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. They asked her about Lee, as far as I know.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall that you did have such an interview at Mrs. Paine's house when she acted as interpreter on November 1, 1968?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Were you present on November 5, 1963, when FBI agents Hosty and Wilson interviewed Mrs. Paine at her home?

Mrs. OSWALD. 1 was in my room at that time busy with little Rachel, and I heard voices which I thought were voices of the FBI. I came out of the room and they were in a hurry to leave. They did not talk to me at that time, other than just a greeting.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether or not they had been talking to Mrs. Paine about you or your husband?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. She told me about it, but I was not especially interested. She does not interpret quite exactly. She is hard to understand. But she told me that in general terms.

Mr. RANKIN. You have told us about the fact that you got the telephone number of the FBI agent and gave it to your husband. Was that the November 1 interview when that happened?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. I will hand you Exhibit 18, and ask you if you can identify that for us, and tell us what it is.

Mrs. OSWALD. Lee's notebook.

Mr. RANKIN. Is your handwriting in that Exhibit 18?

Mrs. OSWALD. It must be, yes, I will find mine. There are many different handwritings in here. Different people have written in this notebook. Sometimes Russian friends in Russia would note their address in this notebook. This is mine.

Mr. RANKIN. Will you tell us--is it a long notation by you?

Mrs. OSWALD. No. That is my aunt's address when Lee would remain in Minsk while I went on vacation.

Mr. RANKIN. Is much of that notebook, Exhibit 18, in your husband's handwriting?

Mrs. OSWALD. The majority, mostly.

Mr. RANKIN. Except for the page with your handwriting on it and the notations of other friends that you referred to, is it generally in your husband's handwriting?

Mrs. OSWALD. I can tell exactly which is noted down by Lee and which is noted down by others.

Mr. RANKIN. And it is a regular notebook that he kept for all types of notes?

Mrs. OSWALD. This is from Russia.

Mr. RANKIN. He started it in Russia?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. And there are a number of notations that were made after you returned to this country, is that right?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibit 18.

The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted with that number.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 18, and received in evidence.)

Mrs. OSWALD. There is a Russian term for "wedding ring" noted in there. Before we were married I wrote that down for him, because he didn't know the Russian expression for it. I didn't fell him. He looked it up in the dictionary himself and translated it.

Mr. RANKIN. I would like to hand this back to you and call your attention to the page of Exhibit 18 where the little white slip is.

I ask you if you recognize the handwriting there, where it refers to Agent Hosty.

Mrs. OSWALD. Lee wrote that. And this is the license number.

Mr. RANKIN. And the telephone number?

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The license number, the name, and the telephone number are all in your husband's----

Mrs. OSWALD. The date when he visited him, FBI agent, telephone, name, license number, and probably the address.

Mr. RANKIN. Are all in your husband's handwriting?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know when they were entered in that notebook, Exhibit 18?

Mrs. OSWALD. After the first visit.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you note the notation "November 1" on that page?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. You think that is about the date of the first visit, then?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, did you report to your husband the fact of this visit, November 1, with the FBI agent?

Mrs. OSWALD. I didn't report it to him at once, but as soon as he came for a weekend, I told him about it.

By the way, on that day he was due to arrive.

Mr. RANKIN. That is on November 1?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. Lee comes off work at 5:30--comes from work at 5:30. They left at 5 o'clock, and we told them if they wanted to they could wait and Lee would be here soon. But they didn't want to wait.

Mr. RANKIN. And by "they" who do you mean? Do you recall the name of the other man beside Agent Hosty?

Mrs. OSWALD. There was only one man during the first visit. I don't remember his name. This was probably the date because there is his name and the date.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, what did you tell your husband about this visit by the FBI agent and the interview?

Mrs. OSWALD. I told him that they had come, that they were interested in where he was working and where he lived, and he was, again, upset.

He said that he would telephone them--I don't know whether he called or not--or that he would visit them.

Mr. RANKIN. Is that all you told him at that time about the interview?

Mrs. OSWALD. No. I told him about the content of the interview, but now I don't remember.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you remember anything else that happened in the interview that you could tell the Commission at this time?

Mrs. OSWALD. I told you that I had told them that I didn't want them to visit us, because we wanted to live peacefully, and that this was disturbing to us.

Mr. RANKIN. Was there anything else?

Mrs. OSWALD. There was more, but I don't remember now.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, during this period of time

Mrs. OSWALD. Excuse me. He said that he knew that Lee had been engaged in passing out leaflets for the Committee for Cuba. and he asked whether Lee was doing that here.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you answer that question?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. What did you say?

Mrs. OSWALD. I said that Lee does not engage in such activities here. This was not like an interview. It was simply a conversation. We talked about even some trifles that had no relationship to politics.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether or not your husband had any interviews or conversations with the FBI during this period?

Mrs. OSWALD. I know of two visits to the home of Ruth Paine, and I saw them each time. But I don't know of any interviews with Lee. Lee had told me that supposedly he had visited their office or their building. But I didn't believe him. I thought that he was a brave rabbit.

Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband continue to call you daily from Dallas after he got his job?

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Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you what be was doing?

Mrs. OSWALD. Usually he would call me during the lunch break, and the second time after he was finished work, and he told me that he was reading. that he was watching television, and sometimes I told him that he should not stay in his room too much, that he should go for a walk in the park.

Mr. RANKIN. What did he say in answer to that?

Mrs. OSWALD. Or I would tell him to go out and eat, and he said that he would listen to me. I don't know to what extent he fulfilled my requests.

Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband come back from Dallas on November 8th?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether he came back on Saturday of that week?

Mrs. OSWALD. I remember that there was one weekend when he didn't come on a Friday, but said that he would come on a Saturday. And he said that that was because he wanted to visit another place supposedly there was another job open, more interesting work.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he say where this other job was that he thought was more interesting?

Mrs. OSWALD. He said that this was also based upon an ad in a newspaper, and that it was connected--that it was related to photography. And he went there in the morning and then--on a Saturday--and then came to us, still during the morning.

Mr. RANKIN. He came home, then, on Saturday, some time before noon of that day?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, before noon.

It seems to me that there was a holiday on that day, on the 8th elections--were there elections on that day?

Mr. RANKIN. Are you thinking of November 11th, Veterans Day?

Mrs. OSWALD. I remember that day exactly. We didn't go anywhere on that Saturday.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you and your husband buy groceries in Irving some place?

Mrs. OSWALD. Not always. Sometimes we would go together with Ruth and buy a few things.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you remember the Hutch's Supermarket, owned by Mr. Hutchison?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever shop there with your husband?

Mrs. OSWALD. We never went just Lee and I.

Mr. RANKIN. Did the three of you--Mrs. Paine and you and your husband go together to shop?

Mrs. OSWALD. And her children.

Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband try to cash checks at the Hutch's market?

Mrs. OSWALD. He may have tried to cash checks sometimes when he received unemployment compensation.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall that he tried to cash a check of $189 at this market?

Mrs. OSWALD. He didn't have such a check.

Mr. RANKIN. As far as you know, he didn't try to cash a check of that size at this market?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember this market. I do remember one time when Lee wanted to cash a check, but it was $33.

Mr. RANKIN. Is that the only time that you recall he tried to cash a check?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Are you speaking of a store in Dallas or in Irving?

Mr. RANKIN. It is in Irving.

Mrs. OSWALD. Then I understand it. Because in Dallas I could not have been with him.

The CHAIRMAN. The hour of adjournment has arrived. So we will adjourn now until tomorrow morning at 10 o'clock.

(Whereupon, at 4:30 p.m., the President's Commission adjourned.)

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Wednesday, February 5, 1964

TESTIMONY OF MRS. LEE HARVEY OSWALD RESUMED

The President's Commission met at 10 a.m., on February 5, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C.

Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Senator Richard B. Russell, Senator John Sherman Cooper, Representative Hale Boggs, Representative Gerald R. Ford, Allen W. Dulles, members.

Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; Norman Redlich, assistant counsel; Leon I. Gopadze and William D. Krimer, interpreters; John M. Thorne, attorney for Mrs. Lee Harvey Oswald; and Ruben Efron.

The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will be in order. We will continue with the examination. Mr. Rankin, you may proceed.

Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, have you become familiar with the English language to some extent?

Mrs. OSWALD. I have never studied it, but simple language I do understand.

Mr. RANKIN. We had reports that you made some study at the Southern Methodist University. Is there anything to that?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. How about Mr. Gregory? Did you study English with him?

Mrs. OSWALD.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you have any formal aid or teaching of English by anyone?

Mrs. OSWALD. I had no formal instructions in it, but a Russian acquaintance, Mr. Bouhe, wrote down some Russian phrases, and I would try to translate them into English.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, since you have been living with the Martins, I assume you haven't had any Russian friends to try to translate English for you, is that right?

Mrs. OSWALD. If you do not count Mr. Gopadze and the FBI interpreter, I have not been in contact with any Russians.

Mr. RANKIN. And there were considerable periods during the time you have been living with the Martins when neither Mr. Gopadze or the FBI agent or translator were present, is that right?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. So have you been able to learn a little more English while you have been with the Martins than you had before, because of that experience?

Mrs. OSWALD. Only a little, I think.

At least it is very useful for me to live with an American family who do not speak Russian.

Mr. RANKIN. That has helped you to learn some English, more than when you were living with Mrs. Paine, who could speak Russian to you. I take it.

Mrs. OSWALD. Of course.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know any French?

Mrs. OSWALD. No. Other than Russian, I don't know any other language.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, when you were with the Martins the Secret Service people were there, too, were they not?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, they helped me a great deal.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you object to the Secret Service people being there?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Did they treat you properly?

Mrs. OSWALD. Excellently--very well.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you object to their being around and looking out for you as they did?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. How did the Martins treat you during the time you have been with them?

Mrs. OSWALD. Better than I--could have been expected.

Mr. RANKIN. Have you been pleased with the way they have treated you?

Mrs. OSWALD. I am very pleased and I am very grateful to them.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, Mr. Thorne is your attorney. I understand that he told the Civil Liberties Union people of Dallas it was all right for the Secret Service

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people to be there with you and that you liked that arrangement and did not want to be interfered with. Was that satisfactory to you?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, that is correct.

Mr. RANKIN. Was he speaking for you when he said that?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, because I received a letter from Mr. Olds, a leader of that union. In that letter he said that he sympathizes with my situation, that he supposed that the Secret Service treated me very badly and stopped me from doing something.

I answered him in a letter written in Russian which was later translated into English that all of this was not the truth.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you feel any restraint or that you were being forced to do anything there while you were at the Martins that was not satisfactory to you?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, I was not forced to do anything that I did not want to.

Mr. RANKIN. Anybody that tried to see you that you wanted to see during that time or from that time up to the present--I withdraw that.

Was anyone who you wished to see or wanted to see you that you were willing to see kept from seeing you at that time or up to the present?

Mrs. OSWALD. Generally some people wanted to talk to me but they couldn't do so simply because I did not want to.

Mr. RANKIN. And was that always the case, whenever you didn't talk to someone during that period of time?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Everything depended only on me.

Mr. RANKIN. And whenever you did want to talk to someone or see someone, you were always able to do that, were you?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I did meet with Katya Ford, my former Russian friend.

Mr. RANKIN. And you were always able to meet with anyone that you wanted to, is that right?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, it has been claimed that Mrs. Ruth Paine tried to see you at various times and was unable to do so. Can you tell us about that?

Mrs. OSWALD. She is trying very hard to come to see me, but I have no desire to meet with her. I think that she is trying to do that for herself, rather than for me.

Mr. RANKIN. And whenever you have refused to see her when she tries to see you, that is because you didn't want to see her yourself, is that right?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. What about the newspaper and television and radio people? Have some of those tried to see you while you were at the Martins?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, they have tried.

Mr. RANKIN. And have you done anything about their efforts to see you?

Mrs. OSWALD. I never wanted to be popular in such a bad sense in which I am now, and therefore I didn't want to see them. But I did have a television interview in which I said that I am relatively satisfied with my situation, that I am not too worried and I thanked people for their attention towards me.

Mr. RANKIN. Will you describe to us your relationship with your mother-in-law now?

Mrs. OSWALD. After all of this happened I met with her at the police station. I was, of course, very sorry for her as Lee's mother. I was always sorry for her because Lee did not want to live with her.

I understood her motherly concern. But in view of the fact of everything that happened later, her appearances in the radio, in the press, I do not think that she is a very sound thinking woman, and I think that part of the guilt is hers. I do not accuse her, but I think that part of the guilt in connection with what happened with Lee lies with her because he did not perhaps receive the education he should have during his childhood, and he did not have any correct leadership on her part, guidance. If she were in contact with my children now, I do not want her to cripple them.

Mr. RANKIN. Has she tried to see you since the assassination?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, all the time.

Mr. RANKIN. And have you seen her since that time?

Mrs. OSWALD. Accidentally we met at the cemetery on a Sunday when I visited

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there, but I didn't want to meet with her, and I left. She didn't understand that I didn't want to meet with her and she accused the Secret Service personnel of preventing her from seeing me.

Mr. RANKIN. Except for the time at the jail and at the cemetery, have you seen her since the assassination?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. At the time you did see your mother-in-law, did you observe any difference in her attitude towards you?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, of course.

Mr. RANKIN. Will you describe that difference that you observed?

Mrs. OSWALD. At first I said that I didn't see her any more. But after Lee was in jail I lived with her for some time at that inn.

Mr. RANKIN. The Six Flags?

Mrs. OSWALD. The Six Flags. And inasmuch as I lived with her and met with her every day I could see I was able to see the change. At least if her relationship with me was good, it was not sincere. I think that she does not like me. I don't think that she simply is able to like me. There were some violent scenes, she didn't want to listen to anyone, there were hysterics. Everyone was guilty of everything and no one understood her. Perhaps my opinion is wrong, but at least I do not want to live with her and to listen to scandals every day.

Mr. RANKIN. Did she say anything to indicate that she blamed you in connection with the assassination?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, she did not accuse me of anything.

Mr. RANKIN. In your presence, at any time, did she accuse Ruth Paine of being involved in causing the assassination or being directly involved?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, she never accused Ruth Paine. She simply did not like her.

Mr. RANKIN. Did she tell you why she didn't like Ruth Paine?

Mrs. OSWALD. She told me but I didn't understand it because it was in English. She expresses more by rather stormy mimicry, thinking that that would get across and I would understand.

Mr. RANKIN. You said that you didn't want to see Ruth Paine because you thought she wanted to see you for her own interests. Will you tell us what you meant by that?

Mrs. OSWALD. I think that she wants to see me in her own selfish interests. She likes to be well known, popular, and I think that anything that I should write her, for example, would wind up in the press.

The reason that I think so is that the first time that we were in jail to see Lee, she was with me and with her children, and she was trying to get in front of the cameras, and to push her children and instructed her children to look this way and look that way. And the first photographs that appeared were of me with her children.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall that in the note your husband left about the Walker incident, that there was a reference to the Red Cross, and that you might get help there? Did you ever obtain any help from the Red Cross before that date?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, never.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know any reason why your husband put that in the note?

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, because the Red Cross is an organization in all countries which helps people who need help, and in case I needed help, since I have no relatives here, I would be able to obtain it from this organization.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether or not your husband received any help from the Red Cross in money payments while he was in Russia?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, I don't.

Mr. RANKIN. In that note you remember that there was a reference to an embassy--it didn't say which embassy. Do you know what embassy your husband was referring to?

Mrs. OSWALD. He had in mind the Soviet Embassy.

Mr. RANKIN. You told about the incident of De Mohrenschildt coming to the house and saying something about how your husband happened to miss, and your husband looked at you and looked at him, and seemed to think that you might have told. You have described that.

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Now, did you have any cause to believe at that time that De Mohrenschildt knew anything about the Walker incident?

Mrs. OSWALD. De Mohrenschildt didn't know anything about it. Simply he thought that this was something that Lee was likely to do. He simply made a joke and the joke happened to hit the target.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you conclude that from what you knew about the situation or from something that De Mohrenschildt said at some time?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, I know this, myself. I know that Lee could not have told him. And, otherwise, how would he have known?

Mr. RANKIN. From your knowledge, were they close enough so that your husband would have made De Mohrenschildt a confidant about anything like that?

Mrs. OSWALD. No matter how close Lee might be to anyone, he would not have confided such things.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall the money that your husband borrowed from the Embassy in Moscow to come to this country? Do you know where he got the money to repay that amount?

Mrs. OSWALD. He worked and we paid out the debt. For six or seven months we were paying off this debt.

Mr. RANKIN. Some of the payments were rather large during that period. Do you remember that?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. And no one will believe it--it may appear strange. But we lived very modestly. Perhaps for you it is hard to imagine how we existed.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you handle the finances----

Mrs. OSWALD. Of Course we were economizing.

No, Lee always handled the money, but I bought groceries. He gave me money and I bought groceries, or more correctly, together.

Mr. RANKIN. You would usually go to the grocery store together to buy what you needed?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. And then did he give you any funds separately from that, for you to spend alone?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, he would give it to me, but I would not take it.

Mr. RANKIN. How much were those amounts?

Mrs. OSWALD. Excuse me, I want to add something.

You asked me yesterday to make a list of how much we spent during a month--I forgot. Excuse me I will do it today. For example, when we paid $60 to $65 rent per month, we would spend only about $15 per week for groceries. As you see, I didn't die and I am not sick.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you buy clothing for yourself?

Mrs. OSWALD. Not everything. At first some of our Russian friends would occasionally give us some clothes. But Lee would also buy clothes for me. But in America this is no problem.

Mr. RANKIN. What do you mean by that?

Mrs. OSWALD. In my opinion life is not very expensive here. Everyone buys according to his financial status, and no one walks around undressed. You can buy for $20 and at a sale you might buy for $2, clothes for an entire season.

Mr. RANKIN. What about clothing for your child? Did you handle the buying of that?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Returning to the----

Mrs. OSWALD. Excuse me. Some of the things for children were given to us by friends who had children.

But I didn't like them and I bought some.

Mr. RANKIN. Returning to the date of November 11, 1963, did you recall that that was a holiday?

Mrs. OSWALD. November 11?

Mr. RANKIN. Yes.

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember that it was a holiday. We did not celebrate it. But something, I remember, was closed. Perhaps there were elections.

Mr. RANKIN. That is Veterans Day in this country, and it was a Monday--refreshing your memory in that regard.

Do you recall whether or not your husband went to work that day?

Mrs. OSWALD. No. I remember that he remained at the Paine's.

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Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell us what he did during that day?

Mrs. OSWALD. As always, he played with June and he helped me a little with preparation of lunch, and he sat around, watched television.

Mr. RANKIN. Was he doing any reading at that time?

Mrs. OSWALD. He didn't read. It seems to me that on that day he was typing. I don't know.

Mr. RANKIN. And you don't know what he was typing?

Mrs. OSWALD. It seems to me it was the envelope----

Mr. RANKIN. Which you have identified?

Mrs. OSWALD. You remember you had a letter which mentioned Mexico and Kostin, it was that envelope.

Mr. RANKIN. Is this Exhibit 16 that you are referring to?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. You see the date is the 12th. You see, I can't remember a specific date, but some event I can connect with it brings it back.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you remember whether your husband returned from Dallas to Irving at any time during that week?

Mrs. OSWALD. It seems he came on Saturday or Friday for the weekend.

Perhaps he didn't come. I am mixed up as to which weekends he did and didn't come.

Mr. RANKIN. We have a statement from a Mr. Hutchison of the supermarket that I referred to yesterday that you and your husband were in his supermarket on November 13. Do you recall anything like that?

Mrs. OSWALD. If the 12th was a Monday and the 13th a Tuesday, Lee was at work. He couldn't have been there.

Mr. RANKIN. In one of your statements that you have given the FBI and the Secret Service you indicated that this particular weekend your husband stayed in Dallas--that is the 15th through the 17th of November. Does that refresh your memory?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes--the 15th to the 17th he remained in Dallas. That is, he didn't come that weekend.

But on the 13th he was not in Irving.

Mr. RANKIN. That would be the weekend before the assassination, to refresh your memory again.

Mrs. OSWALD. You see, this is why I was not surprised that he didn't come that he came, rather, he had not come on Friday and Saturday, and on Sunday I called him over the telephone and this is when he had a quarrel over the fictitious name.

By the way, he didn't come because I told him not to come. He had wanted to come, he had telephoned.

Mr. RANKIN. What did you tell him about not coming?

Mrs. OSWALD. That he shouldn't come every week, that perhaps it is not convenient for Ruth that the whole family be there, live there.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he say anything about that?

Mrs. OSWALD. He said, "As you wish. If you don't want me to come, I won't."

Mr. RANKIN. Were you quite angry with him about the use of the fictitious name?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. And when he called me over the phone a second time I hung up and would not talk to him.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you tell him why you were so angry?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, of course.

Mr. RANKIN. What did you say?

Mrs. OSWALD. I said, "After all, when will all your foolishness come to an end? All of these comedies. First one thing then another. And now this fictitious name."

I didn't understand why. After all, it was nothing terrible if people were to find out that he had been in Russia.

Mr. RANKIN. What did he say when you said that?

Mrs. OSWALD. That I didn't understand anything.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you remember an incident when he said you were a Czechoslovakian rather than a Russian?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. We lived on Elsbeth Street, and he had told the landlady that I was from Czechoslovakia. But I didn't know about it, and when the

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landlady asked me, I told her I was from Russia. I told Lee about it that evening, and he scolded me for having said that.

Mr. RANKIN. What did you say to him then?

Mrs. OSWALD. That the landlady was very nice and she was very good to me and she was even pleased with the fact that I was from Russia.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you object to your husband saying that you were from some country other than Russia?

Mrs. OSWALD. Of course.

Mr. RANKIN. What did you say to him about that?

Mrs. OSWALD. I am not ashamed of the fact that I am from Russia. I can even be proud of the fact that I am Russian. And there is no need for me to hide it. Every person should be proud of his nationality and not be afraid or ashamed of it.

Mr. RANKIN. What did he say in response to that?

Mrs. OSWALD. Nothing.

Mr. RANKIN. When he gave the fictitious name, did he use the name Hidell?

Mrs. OSWALD. Where?

Mr. RANKIN. When you called him that time.

Mrs. OSWALD. Where?

Mr. RANKIN. On the weekend, when you called him, you said there was a fictitious name given.

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know what name he had given. He said that he as under a fictitious name, but he didn't tell me which.

Mr. RANKIN. Have you ever heard that he used the fictitious name Hidell?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. When did you first learn that he used such a name?

Mrs. OSWALD. In New Orleans.

Mr. RANKIN. How did you learn that?

Mrs. OSWALD. When he was interviewed by some anti-Cubans, he used this name and spoke of an organization. I knew there was no such organization. And I know that Hidell is merely an altered Fidel, and I laughed at such foolishness. My imagination didn't work that way.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you say anything to him about it at that time?

Mrs. OSWALD. I said that it wasn't a nice thing to do and some day it would be discovered anyhow.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, the weekend of November 15th to 17th, which was the weekend before the assassination, do you know what your husband did or ow he spent that weekend while he was in Dallas?

Mrs OSWALD. No, I don't.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether he took the rifle before he went into Dallas, that trip, for that weekend?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know. I think that he took the rifle on Thursday when he came the next time, but I didn't see him take it. I assume that. I cannot know it.

Mr. RANKIN. Except for the time in New Orleans that you described. and the time you called to Dallas to ask for your husband, do you know of any other time your husband was using an assumed name?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, no more.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you think he was using that assumed name in connection with this Fair Play for Cuba activity or something else?

Mrs. OSWALD. The name Hidell, which you pronounced Hidell, was in connection with his activity with the non-existing organization.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you and your husband live under the name Hidell in New Orleans?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. You were never identified as the Hidells, as far as you knew, while you were there?

Mrs. OSWALD. No. No one knew that Lee was Hidell.

Mr. RANKIN. How did you discover it, then?

Mrs. OSWALD. I already said that when I listened to the radio, they spoke of that name, and I asked him who, and he said that it was he.

Mr. RANKIN. Was that after the arrest?

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Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember when the interview took place, before the arrest or after.

Mr. RANKIN. But it was in regard to some interview for radio transmission, and he had identified himself as Hidell, rather than Oswald, is that right?

Mrs. OSWALD. No--he represented himself as Oswald, but he said that the organization which he supposedly represents is headed by Hidell.

Mr. RANKIN. He was using the name Hidell, then, to have a fictitious president or head of the organization which really was he himself, is that right?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. You have told us about his practicing with the rifle, the telescopic lens, on the back porch at New Orleans, and also his using the bolt action that you heard from time to time.

Will you describe that a little more fully to us, as best you remember?

Mrs. OSWALD. I cannot describe that in greater detail. I can only say that Lee would sit there with the rifle and open and close the bolt and clean it. No, he didn't clean it at that time. Yes--twice he did clean it.

Mr. RANKIN. And did he seem to be practicing with the telescopic lens, too, and sighting the gun on different objects?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know. The rifle was always with this. I don't know exactly how he practiced, because I was in the house, I was busy. I just knew that he sits there with his rifle. I was not interested in it.

Mr. RANKIN. Was this during the light of the day or during the darkness?

Mrs. OSWALD. During darkness.

Mr. RANKIN. Was it so dark that neighbors could not see him on the porch there with the gun?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, during the week of the assassination, did your husband call you at all by telephone?

Mrs. OSWALD. He telephoned me on Monday, after I had called him on Sunday, and he was not there.

Or, rather, he was there, but he wasn't called to the phone because he was known by another name.

On Monday he called several times, but after I hung up on him and didn't want to talk to him he did not call again. He then arrived on Thursday.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you he was coming Thursday?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you learn that he was using the assumed name of Lee as his last name?

Mrs. OSWALD. I know it now, but I did not ever know it before.

Mr. RANKIN. Thursday was the 21st. Do you recall that?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. And the assassination was on the 22d.

Mrs. OSWALD. This is very hard to forget.

Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband give any reason for coming home on Thursday?

Mrs. OSWALD. He said that he was lonely because he hadn't come the preceding weekend, and he wanted to make his peace with me.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you say anything to him then?

Mrs. OSWALD. He tried to talk to me but I would not answer him, and he was very upset.

Mr. RANKIN. Were you upset with him?

Mrs. OSWALD. I was angry, of course. He was not angry--he was upset. I was angry. He tried very hard to please me. He spent quite a bit of time putting away diapers and played with the children on the street.

Mr. RANKIN. How did you indicate to him that you were angry with him?

Mrs. OSWALD. By not talking to him.

Mr. RANKIN. And how did he show that he was upset?

Mrs. OSWALD. He was upset over the fact that I would not answer him. He tried to start a conversation with me several times, but I would not answer. And he said that he didn't want me to be angry at him because this upsets him.

On that day, he suggested that we rent an apartment in Dallas. He said that

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he was tired of living alone and perhaps the reason for my being so angry was the fact that we were not living together. That if I want to he would rent an apartment in Dallas tomorrow--that he didn't want me to remain with Ruth any longer, but wanted me to live with him in Dallas.

He repeated this not once but several times, but I refused. And he said that once again I was preferring my friends to him, and that I didn't need him.

Mr. RANKIN. What did you say to that?

Mrs. OSWALD. I said it would be better if I remained with Ruth until the holidays, he would come, and we would all meet together. That this was better because while he was living alone and I stayed with Ruth, we were spending less money. And I told him to buy me a washing machine, because two children it became too difficult to wash by hand.

Mr. RANKIN. What did he say to that?

Mrs. OSWALD. He said he would buy me a washing machine.

Mr. RANKIN. What did you say to that?

Mrs. OSWALD. Thank you. That it would be better if he bought something for himself--that I would manage.

Mr. RANKIN. Did this seem to make him more upset, when you suggested that he wait about getting an apartment for you to live in?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. He then stopped talking and sat down and watched television and then went to bed. I went to bed later. It was about 9 o'clock when he went to sleep. I went to sleep about 11:30. But it seemed to me that he was not really asleep. But I didn't talk to him.

In the morning he got up, said goodbye, and left, and that I shouldn't get up--as always, I did not get up to prepare breakfast. This was quite usual.

And then after I fed Rachel, I took a look to see whether Lee was here, but he had already gone. This was already after the police had come. Ruth told me that in the evening she had worked in the garage and she knows that she had put out the light but that the light was on later--that the light was on in the morning. And she guessed that Lee was in the garage. But I didn't see it.

Mr. RANKIN. Did she tell you when she thought your husband had been in the garage, what time of the day?

Mrs. OSWALD. She thought that it was during the evening, because the light remained on until morning.

Mr. RANKIN. Why did you Stay awake until 11:30? Were you still angry with him?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, not for that reason, but because I had to wash dishes and be otherwise busy with the household--take a bath.

Mr. RANKIN. This is a good place for a recess, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. All right. We can take a recess now. We will recess now for 10 minutes. (Brief recess.)

The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will be in order. Mr. Rankin?

Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, why did the use of this false name by your husband make you so angry? Would you explain that a little bit?

Mrs. OSWALD. It would be unpleasant and incomprehensible to any wife if her husband used a fictitious name. And then, of course, I thought that if he would see that I don't like it and that I explained to him that this is not the smart thing to do, that he would stop doing it.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you feel that you were becoming more impatient with all of these things that your husband was doing, the Fair Play for Cuba and the Walker incident, and then this fictitious name business?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, of course. I was tired of it.

Every day I was waiting for some kind of a new surprise. I couldn't wait to find out what else would he think of.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you discuss that with your husband at all?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, of course.

Mr. RANKIN. What did you say about that?

Mrs. OSWALD. I said that no one needed anything like that, that for no

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reason at all he was thinking that he was not like other people, that he was more important.

Mr. RANKIN. And what did he say?

Mrs. OSWALD. He would seem to agree, but then would continue again in two or three days.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you sense that he was not intending to carry out his agreement with you to not have another Walker incident or anything like that?

Mrs. OSWALD. I generally didn't think that Lee would repeat anything like that. Generally, I knew that the rifle was very tempting for him. But I didn't believe that he would repeat it. It was hard to believe.

Mr. RANKIN. I wasn't clear about when Mrs. Paine thought that your husband might have been in the garage and had the light on. Can you give us any help on the time of day that she had in mind?

Mrs. OSWALD. In the morning she thought about it. But she didn't attach any significance to it at that time. It was only after the police had come that this became more significant for her.

Mr. RANKIN. So she thought it was in the morning after he got up from his night's rest that he might have gone to the garage, turned on the light?

Mrs. OSWALD. In my opinion, she thought that it was at night, or during the evening that he had been in the garage and turned on the light. At least that is what she said to me. I don't know.

Mr. RANKIN. Did she indicate whether she thought it was before he went to bed at 9 o'clock?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know. At first it seems it wasn't nine, it was perhaps ten o'clock when Lee went to bed. And first, Ruth went to her room and then Lee went. He was there after her.

Mr. RANKIN. So he might have been in the garage sometime between 9 and 10? Was that what you thought?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. But I think that he might have even been there in the morning and turned on the light.

Mr. RANKIN. On this evening when you were angry with him, had he come home with the young Mr. Frazier that day?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. When was the last time that you had noticed the rifle before that day?

Mrs. OSWALD. I said that I saw--for the first and last time I saw the rifle about a week after I had come to Mrs. Paine.

But, as I said, the rifle was wrapped in a blanket, and I was sure when the police had come that the rifle was still in the blanket, because it was all rolled together. And, therefore, when they took the blanket and the rifle was not in it, I was very much surprised.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever see the rifle in a paper cover?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Could you describe for the Commission the place in the garage where the rifle was located?

Mrs. OSWALD. When you enter the garage from the street it was in the front part, the left.

Mr. RANKIN. By the left you mean left of the door?

Mrs. OSWALD. It is an overhead door and the rifle was to the left, on the floor.

It was always in the same place.

Mr. RANKIN. Was there anything else close to the rifle that you recall?

Mrs. OSWALD. Next to it there were some next to the rifle there were some suitcases and Ruth had some paper barrels in the garage where the kids used to play.

Mr. RANKIN. The way the rifle was wrapped with a blanket, could you tell whether or not the rifle had been removed and the blanket just left there at any time?

Mrs. OSWALD. It always had the appearance of having something inside of it. But I only looked at it really once, and I was always sure the rifle was in it. Therefore, it is very hard to determine when the rifle was taken. I only

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assumed that it was on Thursday, because Lee had arrived so unexpectedly for some reason.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you believe that the reason for his coming out to see you Thursday was to make up?

Mrs. OSWALD. I think there were two reasons. One was to make up with me, and the other to take the rifle. This is--this, of course, is not irreconcilable.

Mr. RANKIN. But you think he came to take the rifle because of what you learned since. Is that it?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, of course.

Mr. RANKIN. Before this incident about the fictitious name, were you and your husband getting along quite well?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he seem to like his job at the depository?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, because it was not dirty work.

Mr. RANKIN. Had he talked about getting any other job?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. When he went to answer some ads, he preferred to get some work connected with photography rather than this work. He liked this work relatively speaking--he liked it. But, of course, he wanted to get something better.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you like the photographic work?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. It was interesting for him. When he would see his work in the newspaper he would always point it out.

Mr. RANKIN. He had a reference in his notebook to the word "Microdot". Do you know what he meant by that?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. How did your husband get along with Mrs. Paine?

Mrs. OSWALD. He was polite to her, as an acquaintance would be, but he didn't like her. He told me that he detested her--a tall and stupid woman. She is, of course, not too smart, but most people aren't.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he ever say anything to indicate he thought Mrs. Paine was coming between him and you?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Did Mrs. Paine say anything about your husband?

Mrs. OSWALD. She didn't say anything bad. I don't know what she thought. But she didn't say anything bad.

Perhaps she didn't like something about him, but she didn't tell me. She didn't want to hurt me by saying anything.

Mr. RANKIN. I have understood from your testimony that you did not really care to go to Russia but your husband was the one that was urging that, and that is why you requested the visa, is that correct?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. And later he talked about not only you and your child going, but also his going with you, is that right?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know what caused him to make that change?

Mrs. OSWALD. At one time I don't remember whether he was working at that time or not--he was very sad and upset. He was sitting and writing something in his notebook. I asked him what he was writing and he said, "It would be better if I go with you."

Then he went into the kitchen and he sat there in the dark, and when I came in I saw that he was crying. I didn't know why. But, of course, when a man is crying it is not a very pleasant thing, and I didn't start to question him about why.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he say to you that he didn't want you to leave him alone?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you at that time say anything to him about your all staying in this country and getting along together?

Mrs. OSWALD. I told him, of course, that it would be better for us to stay here. But if it was very difficult for him and if he was always worried about tomorrow, then perhaps it would be better if we went.

Mr. RANKIN. On the evening of the 21st, was anything said about curtain rods or his taking curtain rods to town the following day?

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Mrs. OSWALD. No, I didn't have any.

Mr. RANKIN. He didn't say anything like that?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you discuss the weekend that was coming up?

Mrs. OSWALD. He said that he probably would not come on Friday, and he didn't come he was in jail.

Mr. RANKIN. Did the quarrel that you had at that time seem to cause him to be more disturbed than usual?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, not particularly. At least he didn't talk about that quarrel when he came. Usually he would remember about what happened. This time he didn't blame me for anything, didn't ask me any questions, just wanted to make up.

Mr. RANKIN. I understood that when you didn't make up he was quite disturbed and you were still angry, is that right?

Mrs. OSWALD. I wasn't really very angry. I, of course, wanted to make up with him. But I gave the appearance of being very angry. I was smiling inside, but I had a serious expression on my face.

Mr. RANKIN. And as a result of that, did he seem to be more disturbed than usual?

Mrs. OSWALD. As always, as usual. Perhaps a little more. At least when he went to bed he was very upset.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you think that had anything to do with the assassination the next day?

Mrs. OSWALD. Perhaps he was thinking about all of that. I don't think that he was asleep. Because, in the morning when the alarm clock went off he hadn't woken up as usual before the alarm went off, and I thought that he probably bad fallen asleep very late. At least then I didn't think about it. Now I think so.

Mr. RANKIN. When he said he would not be home that Friday evening, did you ask him why?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. What did he say?

Mrs. OSWALD. He said that since he was home on Thursday, that it wouldn't make any sense to come again on Friday, that he would come for the weekend.

Mr. RANKIN. Did that cause you to think that he had any special plans to do anything?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you usually keep a wallet with money in it at the Paines?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, in my room at Ruth Paine's there was a black wallet in a wardrobe. Whenever Lee would come he would put money in there, but I never counted it.

Mr. RANKIN. On the evening of November 21st, do you know how much was in the wallet?

Mrs. OSWALD. No. One detail that I remember was that he had asked me whether I had bought some shoes for myself, and 1 said no, that I hadn't had any time. He asked me whether June needed anything and told me to buy everything that I needed for myself and for June and for the children. This was rather unusual for him, that he would mention that first.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he take the money from the wallet from time to time?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, he generally kept the amount that he needed and put the rest in the wallet.

I know that the money that was found there, that you think this was not Lee's money. But I know for sure that this was money that he had earned. He had some money left after his trip to Mexico. Then we received an unemployment compensation check for $33. And then Lee paid only $7 or $8 for his room. And I know how he eats, very little.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know what his ordinary lunch was?

Mrs. OSWALD. Peanut butter sandwich, cheese sandwich, some lettuce, and he would buy himself a hamburger, something else, a coke.

Mr. RANKIN. And what about his evening meal? Do you know what he ate in the evening meal?

Mrs. OSWALD. Usually meat, vegetables, fruit, dessert.

Mr. RANKIN. Where would he have that?

731-217 O--64--vol.I---6

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Mrs. OSWALD. He loved bananas. They were inexpensive.

The place where he rented a room, he could not cook there. He said that there was some sort of a care across the street and that he ate there.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he ever tell you what he paid for his evening meal?

Mrs. OSWALD. About a dollar, $1.30.

Mr. RANKIN. What about his breakfast? Do you know what he had for breakfast ordinarily?

Mrs. OSWALD. He never had breakfast. He just drank coffee and that is all.

Not because he was trying to economize. Simply he never liked to eat.

Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Reporter, will you note the presence of Mr. Ruben Efron in the hearing room. He also knows Russian.

On November 21, the day before the assassination that you were describing, was there any discussion between you and your husband about President Kennedy's trip or proposed trip to Texas, Dallas and the Fort Worth area?

Mrs. OSWALD. I asked Lee whether he knew where the President would speak, and told him that I would very much like to hear him and to see him. I asked him how this could be done.

But he said he didn't know how to do that, and didn't enlarge any further on that subject.

Mr. RANKIN. Had there ever been----

Mrs. OSWALD. This was also somewhat unusual--his lack of desire to talk about that subject any further.

Mr. RANKIN. Can you explain that to us?

Mrs. OSWALD. I think about it more now. At that time, I didn't pay any attention.

Mr. RANKIN. How did you think it was unusual? Could you explain that?

Mrs. OSWALD. The fact that he didn't talk a lot about it. He merely gave me said something as an answer, and did not have any further comments.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you mean by that usually he would discuss a matter of that kind and show considerable interest?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, of course, he would have told who would be there and where this would take place.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you say anything about his showing a lack of interest at that time?

Mrs. OSWALD. I merely shrugged my shoulders.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, prior to that time, had there been any discussion between you concerning the proposed trip of President Kennedy to Texas?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. While you were in New Orleans, was there any discussion or reference to President Kennedy's proposed trip to Texas?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband make any comments about President Kennedy on that evening, of the 21st?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Had your husband at any time that you can recall said anything against President Kennedy?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember any ever having said that. I don't know. He never told me that.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he ever say anything good about President Kennedy?

Mrs. OSWALD. Usually he would translate magazine articles. They were generally good. And he did not say that this contradicted his opinion. I just remembered that he talked about Kennedy's father, who made his fortune by a not very--in a not very good manner. Disposing of such funds, of course, it was easier for his sons to obtain an education and to obtain a government position, and it was easier to make a name for themselves.

Mr. RANKIN. What did he say about President Kennedy's father making his fortune?

Mrs. OSWALD. He said that he had speculated in wine. I don't know to what extent that is true.

Mr. RANKIN. When he read these articles to you, did he comment favorably upon President Kennedy?

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Mrs. OSWALD. I have already said that he would translate articles which were good, but he would not comment on them.

Mr. RANKIN. Can you recall----

Mrs. OSWALD. Excuse me. At least when I found out that Lee had shot at the President, for me this was surprising. And I didn't believe it. I didn't believe for a long time that Lee had done that. That he had wanted to kill Kennedy--because perhaps Walker was there again, perhaps he wanted to kill him.

Mr. RANKIN. Why did you not believe this?

Mrs. OSWALD. Because I had never heard anything bad about Kennedy from Lee. And he never had anything against him.

Mr. RANKIN. But you also say that he never said anything about him.

Mrs. OSWALD. He read articles which were favorable.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he say he approved of those articles?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, he didn't say anything. Perhaps he did reach his own conclusions reading these articles, but he didn't tell me about them.

Mr. RANKIN. So apparently he didn't indicate any approval or disapproval as far as he was concerned, of President Kennedy?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, that is correct. The President is the President. In my opinion, he never wanted to overthrow him. At least he never showed me that. He never indicated that he didn't want that President.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you observe that his acts on November 21st the evening before the assassination, were anything like they were the evening before the Walker incident?

Mrs. OSWALD. Absolutely nothing in common.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he say anything at all that would indicate he was contemplating the assassination?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he discuss the television programs he saw that evening with you?

Mrs. OSWALD. He was looking at TV by himself. I was busy in the kitchen. At one time when we were when I was together with him they showed some sort of war films, from World War II. And he watched them with interest.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall films that he saw called "Suddenly," and "We were Strangers" that involved assassinations?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember the names of these films. If you would remind me of the contents, perhaps I would know.

Mr. RANKIN. Well, "Suddenly," was about the assassination of a president, and the other was about the assassination of a Cuban dictator.

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, Lee saw those films.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you that he had seen them?

Mrs. OSWALD. I was with him when he watched them.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall about when this was with reference to the date of the assassination?

Mrs. OSWALD. It seems that this was before Rachel's birth.

Mr. RANKIN. Weeks or months? Can you recall that?

Mrs. OSWALD. Several days. Some five days.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you discuss the films after you had seen them with your husband?

Mrs. OSWALD. One film about the assassination of the president in Cuba, which I had seen together with him, he said that this was a fictitious situation, but that the content of the film was similar to the actual situation which existed in Cuba, meaning the revolution in Cuba.

Mr. RANKIN. Did either of you comment on either film being like the attempt on Walker's life?

Mrs. OSWALD. No. I didn't watch the other film.

Mr. RANKIN. Was anything said by your husband about how easy an assassination could be committed like that?

Mrs. OSWALD. No. I only know that he watched the film with interest, but I didn't like it.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall anything else he said about either of these films?

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Mrs. OSWALD. Nothing else. He didn't tell me anything else. He talked to Ruth a few words. Perhaps she knows more.

Mr. RANKIN. By Ruth, you mean Mrs. Paine?

Mrs. OSWALD. They spoke in English. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. And did Mrs. Paine tell you what he said to her at that time?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall your husband saying at any time. after he saw the film about the Cuban assassination that this was the old-fashioned way of assassination?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall anything being said by your husband at any time about Governor Connally?

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, while we were still in Russia, and Connally at that time was Secretary of the Navy, Lee wrote him a letter in which he asked Connally to help him obtain a good character reference because at the end of his Army service he had a good characteristic--honorable discharge but that it had been changed after it became known he had gone to Russia.

Mr. RANKIN. Had it been changed to undesirable discharge, as you understand it?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. Then we received a letter from Connally in which he said that he had turned the matter over to the responsible authorities. That was all in Russia.

But here it seems he had written again to that organization with a request to review. But he said from time to time that these are bureaucrats, and he was dissatisfied.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know when he wrote again?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Was that letter written from New Orleans?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know. I only know about the fact, but when and how, I don't know.

Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband say anything to you to indicate he had a dislike for Governor Connally?

Mrs. OSWALD. Here he didn't say anything.

But while we were in Russia he spoke well of him. It seems to me that Connally was running for Governor and Lee said that when he would return to the United States he would vote for him.

Mr. RANKIN. That is all that you remember that he said about Governor Connally then?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. With regard to the Walker incident, you said that your husband seemed disturbed for several weeks. Did you notice anything of that kind with regard to the day prior to the assassination?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. On November 22, the day of the assassination, you said your husband got up and got his breakfast. Did you get up at all before he left?

Mrs. OSWALD. No. I woke up before him, and I then went to the kitchen to see whether he had had breakfast or not-- whether he had already left for work. But the coffee pot was cold and Lee was not there.

And when I met Ruth that morning, I asked her whether Lee had had coffee or not, and she said probably, perhaps he had made himself some instant coffee.

But probably he hadn't had any breakfast that morning.

Mr. RANKIN. Then did he say anything to you that morning at all, or did he get up and go without speaking to you?

Mrs. OSWALD. He told me to take as much money as I needed and to buy everything, and said goodbye, and that is all.

After the police had already come, I noticed that Lee had left his wedding ring.

Mr. RANKIN. You didn't observe that that morning when your husband had left, did you?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

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Mr. RANKIN. Do you know approximately what time your husband left that morning?

Mrs. OSWALD. I have written it there, but I have now forgotten whether it was seven or eight. But a quarter to eight--I don't know. I have now forgotten.

Mr. RANKIN. What time was he due for work?

Mrs. OSWALD. He was due at work at 8 or 8:30. At 7:15 he was already gone.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether he rode with Wesley Frazier that morning?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know. I didn't hear him leave.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever see a paper bag or cover for the rifle at the Paine's residence or garage?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever see a bag at any time?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Where did your husband have his lunch? Did he take a sandwich to the depository, or did he go home to his rooming house for lunch? Do you know?

Mrs. OSWALD. He usually took sandwiches to lunch. But I don't know whether he would go home or not.

Mr. RANKIN. Had your husband ever left his wedding ring at home that way before?

Mrs. OSWALD. At one time while he was still at Fort Worth, it was inconvenient for him to work with his wedding ring on and he would remove it, but at work--he would not leave it at home. His wedding ring was rather wide, and it bothered him.

I don't know now. He would take it off at work.

Mr. RANKIN. Then this is the first time during your married life that he had ever left it at home where you live?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether your husband carried any package with him when he left the house on November 22nd?

Mrs. OSWALD. I think that he had a package with his lunch. But a small package.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether he had any package like a rifle in some container?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. What did you do the rest of the morning, after you got up on November 22d?

Mrs. OSWALD. When I got up the television set was on, and I knew that Kennedy was coming. Ruth had gone to the doctor with her children and she left the television set on for me. And I watched television all morning, even without having dressed. She was running around in her pajamas and watching television with me.

Mr. RANKIN. Before the assassination, did you ever see your husband examining the route of the parade as it was published in the paper?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever see him looking at a map of Dallas like he did in connection with the Walker shooting?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. How did you learn of the shooting of President Kennedy?

Mrs. OSWALD. I was watching television, and Ruth by that time was already with me, and she said someone had shot at the President.

Mr. RANKIN. What did you say?

Mrs. OSWALD. It was hard for me to say anything. We both turned pale. I went to my room and cried.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you think immediately that your husband might have been involved?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

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Mr. RANKIN. Did Mrs. Paine say anything about the possibility of your husband being involved?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, but she only said that "By the way, they fired from the building in which Lee is working."

My heart dropped. I then went to the garage to see whether the rifle was there, and I saw that the blanket was still there, and I said, "Thank God." I thought, "Can there really be such a stupid man in the world that could do something like that?" But I was already rather upset at that time--I don't know why. Perhaps my intuition. I didn't know what I was doing.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you look in the blanket to see if the rifle was there?

Mrs. OSWALD. I didn't unroll the blanket. It was in its usual position, and it appeared to have something inside.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you at any time open the blanket to see if the rifle was there?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, only once.

Mr. RANKIN. You have told us about that.

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. And what about Mrs. Paine? Did she look in the blanket to see if the rifle was there?

Mrs. OSWALD. She didn't know about the rifle. Perhaps she did know. But she never told me about it. I don't know.

Mr. RANKIN. When did you learn that the rifle was not in the blanket?

Mrs. OSWALD. When the police arrived and asked whether my husband had a rifle, and I said "Yes."

Mr. RANKIN. Then what happened?

Mrs. OSWALD. They began to search the apartment. When they came to the garage and took the blanket, I thought, "Well, now, they will find it." They opened the blanket but there was no rifle there.

Then, of course, I already knew that it was Lee. Because, before that, while I thought that the rifle was at home, I did not think that Lee had done that. I thought the police had simply come because he was always under suspicion.

Mr. RANKIN. What do you mean by that--he was always under suspicion?

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, the FBI would visit us.

Mr. RANKIN. Did they indicate what they suspected him of?

Mrs. OSWALD. They didn't tell me anything.

Mr. RANKIN. What did you say to the police when they came?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember now. I was so upset that I don't remember what I said.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you tell them about your husband leaving his wedding ring that morning?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, because I didn't know it.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you tell them that you had looked for the gun you thought was in the blanket?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, it seems to me I didn't say that. They didn't ask me.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you watch the police open the blanket to see if the rifle was there?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Did Mrs. Paine also watch them?

Mrs. OSWALD. It seems to me, as far as I remember.

Mr. RANKIN. When the police came, did Mrs. Paine act as an interpreter for you?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. She told me about what they had said. But I was not being questioned so that she would interpret. She told me herself. She very much loved to talk and she welcomed the occasion.

Mr. RANKIN. You mean by that that she answered questions of the police and then told you what she had said?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

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Mr. RANKIN. And what did she tell you that she had said to the police?

Mrs. OSWALD. She talked to them in the usual manner, in English, when they were addressing her.

But when they addressed me, she was interpreting.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall the exact time of the day that you discovered the wedding ring there at the house?

Mrs. OSWALD. About 2 o'clock, I think. I don't remember. Then everything got mixed up, all time.

Mr. RANKIN. Did the police spend considerable time there?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you remember the names of any of the officers?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, I don't.

Mr. RANKIN. How did they treat you?

Mrs. OSWALD. Rather gruff, not very polite. They kept on following me. I wanted to change clothes because I was dressed in a manner fitting to the house. And they would not even let me go into the dressing room to change.

Mr. RANKIN. What did you say about that?

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, what could I tell them?

I asked them, but they didn't want to. They were rather rough. They kept on saying, hurry up.

Mr. RANKIN. Did they want you to go with them?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you leave the house with them right soon after they came?

Mrs. OSWALD. About an hour, I think.

Mr. RANKIN. And what were they doing during that hour?

Mrs. OSWALD. They searched the entire house.

Mr. RANKIN. Did they take anything with. them?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes everything, even some tapes--Ruth's tapes from a tape recorder, her things. I don't know what.

Mr. RANKIN. Did they take many of your belongings?

Mrs. OSWALD. I didn't watch at that time. After all, it is not my business. If they need it, let them take it.

Mr. RANKIN. Did they give you an inventory of what they took?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. You have never received an inventory?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you now know what they took?

Mrs. OSWALD. No. I know that I am missing my documents, that I am missing Lee's documents, Lee's wedding ring.

Mr. RANKIN. What about clothing?

Mrs. OSWALD. Robert had some of Lee's clothing. I don't know what was left of Lee's things, but I hope they will return it. No one needs it.

Mr. RANKIN. What documents do you refer to that you are missing?

Mrs. OSWALD. My foreign passport, my immigration card, my birth certificate, my wedding certificate marriage certificate, June's and Rachel's birth certificates. Then various letters, my letters from friends. Perhaps something that has some bearing--photographs, whatever has some reference whatever refers to the business at hand, let it remain.

Then my diploma. I don't remember everything now.

Mr. RANKIN. What documents of your husband's do you recall that they took?

Mrs. OSWALD. I didn't see what they took. At least at the present time I have none of Lee's documents.

Mr. RANKIN. The documents of his that you refer to that you don't have are similar to your own that you described?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. He also had a passport, several work books, labor cards. I don't know what men here what sort of documents men here carry.

Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chairman, it is now 12: 30.

The CHAIRMAN. I think we will recess now for lunch.

(Whereupon, at 12:30 p.m., the Commission recessed.)

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Afternoon Session

TESTIMONY OF MRS. LEE HARVEY OSWALD RESUMED

The President's Commission reconvened at 2 p.m.

The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will be in order. Mr. Rankin, you may continue.

Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, we will hand you Exhibit 19, which purports to be an envelope from the Soviet Embassy at Washington, dated November 4, 1963, and ask you if you recall seeing the original or a copy of that.

Mrs. OSWALD. I had not seen this envelope before, but Lee had told me that a letter had been received in my name from the Soviet Embassy with congratulations on the October Revolution--on the date of the October Revolution.

Mr. RANKIN. And you think that that came in that Exhibit 19, do you?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, because the date coincides, and I didn't get any other letters.

Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibit 19.

The CHAIRMAN. It may be in the record and given the next number.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 19, and received in evidence.)

Mr. RANKIN. In some newspaper accounts your mother-in-law has intimated that your husband might have been an agent for some government, and that she might have did have information in that regard.

Do you know anything about that?

Mrs. OSWALD. The first time that I hear anything about this.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever know----

Mrs. OSWALD. That is all untrue, of course.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever know that your husband was at any time an agent of the Soviet Union?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever know that your husband was an agent of the Cuban government at any time?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever know that your husband was an agent of any agency of the United States Government?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever know that your husband was an agent of any government?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you have any idea of the motive which induced your husband to kill the President?

Mrs. OSWALD. From everything that I know about my husband, and of the events that transpired, I can conclude that he wanted in any way, whether good or bad, to do something that would make him outstanding, that he would be known in history.

Mr. RANKIN. And is it then your belief that he assassinated the President, for this purpose?

Mrs. OSWALD. That is my opinion. I don't know how true that is.

Mr. RANKIN. And what about his shooting at General Walker? Do you think he had the same motive or purpose in doing that?

Mrs. OSWALD. I think that, yes.

Mr. RANKIN. After the assassination, were you coerced or abused in any way by the police or anyone else in connection with the inquiry about the assassination?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you see or speak to your husband on November 22d, following his arrest?

Mrs. OSWALD. On the 22d I did not see him. On the 23d I met with him.

Mr. RANKIN. And when you met with him on the 23d, was it at your request or his?

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Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know whether he requested it, but I know that I wanted to see him.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you request the right to see your husband on the 22d, after his arrest?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. And what answer were you given at that time?

Mrs. OSWALD. I was not permitted to.

Mr. RANKIN. Who gave you that answer?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know. The police.

Mr. RANKIN. You don't know what officer of the police?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Where did you spend the evening on the night of the assassination?

Mrs. OSWALD. On the day of the assassination, on the 22d, after returning from questioning by the police, I spent the night with Mrs. Paine, together with Lee's mother.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you receive any threats from anyone at this time?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Did any law enforcement agency offer you protection at that time?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. When you saw your husband on November 23d, the day after the assassination, did you have a conversation with him?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. And where did this occur?

Mrs. OSWALD. In the police department.

Mr. RANKIN. Were just the two of you together at that time?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, the mother was there together with me.

Mr. RANKIN. At that time what did you say to him and what did he say to you?

Mrs. OSWALD. You probably know better than I do what I told him.

Mr. RANKIN. Well, I need your best recollection, if you can give it to us, Mrs. Oswald.

Mrs. OSWALD. Of course he tried to console me that I should not worry, that everything would turn out well. He asked about how the children were. He spoke of some friends who supposedly would help him. I don't know who he had in mind. That he had written to someone in New York before that. I was so upset that of course I didn't understand anything of that. It was simply talk.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you say anything to him then?

Mrs. OSWALD. I told him that the police had been there and that a search had been conducted, that they had asked me whether we had a rifle, and I had answered yes.

And he said that if there would be a trial. and that if I am questioned it would be my right to answer or to refuse to answer.

Mr. GOPADZE. She asked me if she talked about that thing, the first evening when I talked to her with the FBI agents, she asked me if she didn't have to tell me if she didn't want to. And warning her of her constitutional rights, telling her she didn't have to tell me anything she didn't want to at that time, she told me she knew about that, that she didn't have to tell me if she didn't want to.

Mrs. OSWALD. And he then asked me, "Who told you you had that right?" And then I understood that he knew about it.

Mr. GOPADZE. At that time I did not know.

Mrs. OSWALD. I thought you had been told about it because the conversation had certainly been written down. I am sure that while I was talking to Lee--after all, this was not some sort of a trial of a theft, but a rather important matter, and I am sure that everything was recorded.

Mr. RANKIN. Let me see if I can clarify what you were saying.

As I understand it, Mr. Gopadze had talked to you with the FBI agents after the assassination, and they had cautioned you that you didn't have to talk, in accordance with your constitutional rights, is that correct?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, that is right.

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Mr. RANKIN. And you told Mr. Gopadze you already knew that?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember what I told him.

Mr. GOPADZE. Mrs. Oswald, on her own accord, asked me, or told me that she didn't have to tell us anything she didn't want to. I said, "That is right."

Mrs. OSWALD. I disliked him immediately, because he introduced himself as being from the FBI. I was at that time very angry at the FBI because I thought perhaps Lee is not guilty, and they have merely tricked him.

Mr. GOPADZE. Mr. Rankin, may I, for the benefit of the Commission--I would like to mention that I didn't represent myself as being an FBI agent. I just said that I was a government agent, with the FBI. And I introduced both agents to Mrs. Oswald.

Mr. RANKIN. And, Mrs. Oswald, you thought he was connected with the FBI in some way, did you?

Mrs. OSWALD. He had come with them, and I decided he must have been.

Mr. RANKIN. And your ill feeling towards the FBI was----

Mrs. OSWALD. He did not tell me that he was with the FBI, but he was with them.

Mr. RANKIN. Your ill feeling towards the FBI was due to the fact that you thought they were trying to obtain evidence to show your husband was guilty in regard to the assassination?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. But you have said since the assassination that you didn't want to believe it, but you had to believe that your husband had killed President Kennedy, is that right?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. There were some facts, but not too many, and I didn't know too much about it at that time yet. After all, there are in life some accidental concurrences of circumstances. And it is very difficult to believe in that.

Mr. RANKIN. But from what you have learned since that time, you arrived at this conclusion, did you, that your husband had killed the President?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. Unfortunately, yes.

Mr. RANKIN. And you related those facts that you learned to what you already knew about your life with him and what you knew he had done and appeared to be doing in order to come to that conclusion?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. When you saw your husband on November 23d, at the police station, did you ask him if he had killed President Kennedy?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you ask him at that time if he had killed Officer Tippit?

Mrs. OSWALD. No. I said. "I don't believe that you did that, and everything will turn out well."

After all, I couldn't accuse him--after all, he was my husband.

Mr. RANKIN. And what did he say to that?

Mrs. OSWALD. He said that I should not worry, that everything would turn out well. But I could see by his eyes that he was guilty. Rather, he tried t appear to be brave. However, by his eyes I could tell that he was afraid. This was just a feeling. It is hard to describe.

Mr. RANKIN. Would you help us a little bit by telling us what you saw i his eyes that caused you to think that?

Mrs. OSWALD. He said goodbye to me with his eyes. I knew that. He said that everything would turn out well, but he did not believe it himself.

Mr. RANKIN. How could you tell that?

Mrs. OSWALD. I saw it in his eyes.

Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband ever at any time say to you that he responsible or had anything to do with the killing of President Kennedy?

Mrs. OSWALD. After Kennedy--I only saw him once, and he didn't tell me anything, and I didn't see him again.

Mr. RANKIN. And did he at any time tell you that he had anything to with the shooting of Officer Tippit?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

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Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever ask your husband why he ran away or tried to escape after the assassination?

Mrs. OSWALD. I didn't ask him about that.

Mr. RANKIN. On either November 22d, or Saturday, November 23d, did anyone contact you and advise you that your husband was going to be shot?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Where did you spend the evening of November 23d?

Mrs. OSWALD. After seeing Lee, we went with some reporters of Life Magazine who had rented a room, but it turned out to be in a hotel--but it turned out to be inconvenient because there were many people there and we went to another place. We were in a hotel in Dallas, but I don't know the name.

Mr. RANKIN. Who was with you at that time?

Mrs. OSWALD. Lee's mother.

Mr. RANKIN. Anyone else?

Mrs. OSWALD. No--June and Rachel.

Mr. RANKIN. Was Robert with you at all?

Mrs. OSWALD. I saw Robert in the police at the police station, but he did not stay with us at the hotel.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, the evening of November 22d, were you at Ruth Paine's house?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. At that time did the reporters come there and the Life reporters, and ask you and your mother-in-law and Mrs. Paine about what had happened?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. We have a report that there was quite a scene between Mrs. Paine and your mother-in-law at that time. Was there such an event?

Mrs. OSWALD. I did not understand English too well, and I did not know what they were quarreling about. I know that the reporters wanted to talk to me, but his mother made a scene and went into hysterics, and said I should not talk and that she would not talk.

Mr. RANKIN. Did she say why she would not talk?

Mrs. OSWALD. Perhaps she said it in English. I didn't understand. She talked to the reporters.

Mr. RANKIN. Did she say anything about being paid if she was going to tell any story?

Mrs. OSWALD. She has a mania--only money, money, money.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you understand that she was quarreling with Ruth Paine about something concerning the interview?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. It appeared to be a quarrel, but what they quarreled about, I don't know.

Mr. RANKIN. And after the quarrel, did you leave there?

Mrs. OSWALD. I went to my room. But then I showed Lee's mother the photograph, where he is photographed with a rifle, and told her he had shot at Walker and it appeared he might have been shooting at the President. She said that I should hide that photograph and not show it to anyone.

On the next day I destroyed one photograph which I had. I think I had two small ones. When we were in the hotel I burned it.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you say anything to her about the destruction of the photographs when she suggested that?

Mrs. OSWALD. She saw it, while I was destroying them.

Mr. RANKIN. After the assassination, did the police and FBI and the Secret Service ask you many questions?

Mrs. OSWALD. In the police station there was a routine regular questioning, as always happens. And then after I was with the agents of the Secret Service and the FBI, they asked me many questions, of course many questions. Sometimes the FBI agents asked me questions which had no bearing or relationship, and if I didn't want to answer they told me that if I wanted to live in this country, I would have to help in this matter, even though they were often irrelevant. That is the FBI.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know who said that to you?

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Mrs. OSWALD. Mr. Heitman and Bogoslav, who was an interpreter for the FBI.

Mr. RANKIN. You understand that you do not have to tell this Commission in order to stay in this country, don't you, now?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. You are not under any compulsion to tell the Commission here in order to be able to stay in the country.

Mrs. OSWALD. I understand that.

Mr. RANKIN. And you have come here because you want to tell us what you could about this matter, is that right?

Mrs. OSWALD. This is my voluntary wish, and no one forced me to do this.

Mr. RANKIN. Did these various people from the police and the Secret Service and the FBI treat you courteously when they asked you about the matters that they did, concerning the assassination and things leading up to it?

Mrs. OSWALD. I have a very good opinion about the Secret Service, and the people in the police department treated me very well. But the FBI agents were somehow polite and gruff. Sometimes they would mask a gruff question in a polite form.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you see anyone from the Immigration Service during this period of time?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know who that was?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember the name. I think he is the chairman of that office. At least he was a representative of that office.

Mr. RANKIN. By "that office" you mean the one at Dallas?

Mrs. OSWALD. I was told that he had especially come from New York, it seems to me.

Mr. RANKIN. What did he say to you?

Mrs. OSWALD. That if I was not guilty of anything, if I had not committed any crime against this Government, then I had every right to live in this country. This was a type of introduction before the questioning by the FBI. He even said that it would be better for me if I were to help them.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he explain to you what he meant by being better for you?

Mrs. OSWALD. In the sense that I would have more rights in this country. I understood it that way.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you understand that you were being threatened with deportation if you didn't answer these questions?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, I did not understand it that way.

You see, it was presented in such a delicate form, but there was a clear implication that it would be better if I were to help.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you----

Mrs. OSWALD. This was only felt. It wasn't said in actual words.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you feel that it was a threat?

Mrs. OSWALD. This was not quite a threat--it was not a threat. But it was their great desire that I be in contact, in touch with the FBI. I sensed that.

Mr. RANKIN. But you did not consider it to be a threat to you?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Did anyone indicate that it would affect your ability to work in this country if you cooperated?

Mrs. OSWALD. Excuse me. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Is there anything else about your treatment by law enforcement officials during this period that you would like to tell the Commission about?

Mrs. OSWALD. I think that the FBI agents knew that I was afraid that after everything that had happened I could not remain to live in this country, and they somewhat exploited that for their own purposes, in a very polite form, so that you could not say anything after that. They cannot be accused of anything. They approached it in a very clever, contrived way.

Mr. RANKIN. Was there anyone else of the law enforcement officials that you felt treated you in that manner?

Mrs. OSWALD. No. As for the rest, I was quite content. Everyone was very attentive towards me.

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Mr. RANKIN. Where were you on the morning of November 24th when your husband was killed?

Mrs. OSWALD. The night from the 23d to the 24th I spent at a hotel in Dallas, together with the mother. She wanted to make sure that the Life reporters who had taken this room would pay for it, as they had promised. But they disappeared. Then she telephoned Robert, it seems to me, and Gregory--no, Mr. Gregory. And I know that he came with Robert, and Robert paid for the room. And, after that, after we left the hotel, we met with the Secret Service agents. I wanted to see Lee, and we were supposed to go to the police station to see him.

Mr. RANKIN. That was on November 24th, on Sunday?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. And then what happened?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember whether we went to Ruth to take my things or perhaps--in general, I remember that en route, in the car, Mike Howard or Charley Kunkel said that Lee had been shot today.

At first he said that it wasn't serious--perhaps just not to frighten me. I was told that he had been taken to a hospital, and then I was told that he had been seriously wounded.

Then they had to telephone somewhere. They stopped at the house of the chief of police, Curry. From there, I telephone Ruth to tell her that I wanted to take several things which I needed with me, and asked her to prepare them. And that there was a wallet with money and Lee's ring.

Soon after that--Robert was no longer with me, but Gregory was there, and the mother, and the Secret Service agents. They said that Lee had died.

After that, we went to the Motel Inn, the Six Flags Inn, where I stayed for several days--perhaps two weeks--I don't know.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall what time of the day you heard that your husband had been shot?

Mrs. OSWALD. Two o'clock in the afternoon, I think.

Mr. RANKIN. And where were you at that time?

Mrs. OSWALD. I was in a car.

Mr. RANKIN. Just riding around, or at some particular place?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, not at two o'clock earlier. Lee was shot at 11 o'clock. It was probably close to 12 o'clock. He died at one.

Mr. RANKIN. And where was the car that you were in at that time?

Mrs. OSWALD. We were on the way to Chief Curry, en route front the hotel.

Mr. RANKIN. What did you do after you went to the motel?

Mrs. OSWALD. I left with Robert and we prepared for the funeral. Then Ruth Paine sent my things to me via the agent.

Mr. GOPADZE. She would like a recess for a little while. She has a headache.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes, we will recess.

(Brief recess)

The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will be in order. Do you feel refreshed now, Mrs. Oswald, ready to proceed?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, thank you.

The CHAIRMAN. Very well.

Mr. Rankin?

Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, I asked you if you asked your husband about his efforts to escape, why he did that. I will ask you now whether in light of what you said about his seeking notoriety in connection with the assassination, in your opinion how you explain his efforts to escape, which would presumably not give him that notoriety.

Mrs. OSWALD. When he did that, he probably did it with the intention of becoming notorious. But after that, it is probably a normal reaction of a man to try and escape.

Mr. RANKIN. You will recall that in the interviews, after the assassination, you first said that you thought your husband didn't do it, do you?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember it, but quite possibly I did say that. You must understand that now I only speak the truth.

Mr. RANKIN. Recently you said that you thought your husband did kill President Kennedy.

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Mrs. OSWALD. I now have enough facts to say that.

Mr. RANKIN. Can you give us or the Commission an idea generally about when you came to this latter conclusion, that he did kill President Kennedy?

Mrs. OSWALD. Perhaps a week after it all happened, perhaps a little. more. The more facts came out, the more convinced I was.

Mr. RANKIN. You have stated in some of your interviews that your husband would get on his knees and cry and say that he was lost. Do you recall when this happened?

Mrs. OSWALD. That was in New Orleans.

Mr. RANKIN. Was it more than one occasion?

Mrs. OSWALD. When he said that, that was only once.

Mr. RANKIN. And do you know what caused him to say that?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know.

Mr. RANKIN. You don't know whether there was some occasion or some happening that caused it?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Did your mother-in-law ever indicate that she had some particular evidence, either oral or documentary, that would decide this case?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, she always said that she has a pile of papers and many acquaintances.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever ask her to tell you what it was that would be so decisive about the case?

Mrs. OSWALD. I would have liked to ask her, but I didn't speak any English. And then I didn't believe her. What documents could she have when she had not seen Lee for one year, and she didn't even know we lived in New Orleans?

I think that is just simply idle talk, that she didn't have anything. Perhaps she does have something.

But I think that it is only she who considers that she has something that might reveal, uncover this.

Mr. RANKIN. Has there been any time that you wanted to see your mother-in-law that you have been prevented from doing so?

Mrs. OSWALD. Never.

I don't want to see her, I didn't want to.

Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, I am going to ask you about differences between you and your mother-in-law, not for the purpose of embarrassing you in any way, but since we are going to ask her to testify it might be helpful to the Commission to know that background.

I hope you will bear with us.

Have you had some differences with your mother-in-law?

Mrs. OSWALD. I am sorry that you will devote your time to questioning her, because you will only be tired and very sick after talking to her. I am very much ashamed to have this kind of relationship to my mother-in-law. I would like to be closer to her and to be on better terms with her. But when you get to know her, you will understand why. I don't think that she can help you.

But if it is a formality, then, of course.

Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, can you describe for the Commission your differences so the Commission will be able to evaluate those differences?

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, she asserts, for example, that I don't know anything, that I am being forced to say that Lee is guilty in everything, that she knows more.

This is what our differences are.

Mr. RANKIN. And have you responded to her when she said those things?

Mrs. OSWALD. She said this by means of newspapers and television.

I haven't seen her.

I would like to tell her that, but it is impossible to tell her that, because she would scratch my eyes out.

Mr. RANKIN. Are there any other differences between you and your mother-in-law that you have not described?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, there are no more.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know of any time that your husband had money in excess of what he obtained from the jobs he was working on?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

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Mr. RANKIN. He had his unemployment insurance when he was out of work. Is that right?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. And then he had the earnings from his jobs, is that right?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, beyond those amounts, do you know of any sum of money that he had from any source?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether he was ever acting as an undercover agent for the FBI.

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you believe that he was at any time?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether or not he was acting as an agent for the CIA at any time?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you believe that he was?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you know Jack Ruby, the man that killed your husband?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Before the murder of your husband by Jack Ruby, had you ever known of him?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, never.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether your husband knew Jack Ruby before the killing?

Mrs. OSWALD. He was not acquainted with him. Lee did not frequent nightclubs, as the papers said.

Mr. RANKIN. How do you know that?

Mrs. OSWALD. He was always with me. He doesn't like other women. He didn't drink. Why should he then go?

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know any reason why Jack Ruby killed your husband?

Mrs. OSWALD. About that, Jack Ruby should be questioned.

Mr. RANKIN. I have to ask you, Mrs. Oswald.

Mrs. OSWALD. He didn't tell me.

Mr. RANKIN. And Do you know any reason why he should?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know, but it seems to me that he was a sick person at that time, perhaps. At least when I see his picture in the paper now, it is an abnormal face.

Mr. RANKIN. Has your husband ever mentioned the name Jack Ruby to you?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. He never at any time said anything about Jack Ruby that you can recall?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, never. I heard that name for the first time after he killed Lee.

I would like to consult with Mr. Thorne and Mr. Gopadze.

The CHAIRMAN. You may.

(Brief recess)

The CHAIRMAN.. All right.

Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, would you like to add something to your testimony?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. This is in connection with why I left the room. I will tell you why I left the room.

I consulted with my attorney, whether I should bring this up. This is not a secret. The thing is that I have written a letter, even though I have not mailed it yet, to the attorney--to the prosecuting attorney who will prosecute Jack Ruby. I wrote in that letter that even--that if Jack Ruby killed my husband, and I felt that I have a right as the widow of the man he killed to say that, that if he killed him he should be punished for it. But that in accordance with the laws here, the capital punishment, the death penalty is imposed for such a crime, and that I do not want him to be subjected to that kind of a penalty. I do not want another human life to be taken. And I don't want it to be believed because of this letter that I had been acquainted with Ruby, and that I wanted to protect him.

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It is simply that it is pity to--I feel sorry for another human life. Because this will not return--bring back to life Kennedy or the others who were killed. But they have their laws, and, of course, I do not have the right to change them. That is only my opinion, and perhaps they will pay some attention to it.

That is all.

Mr. RANKIN. Had you ever been in the Carousel Nightclub?

Mrs. OSWALD. I have never been in nightclubs.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you know where it was located before your husband was killed by Jack Ruby?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, I don't know it now either.

Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell us whether your husband was right handed or left handed?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, he was right handed..

His brother writes with his left hand and so does--his brother and mother both write with their left hand.

And since I mentioned Jack Ruby, the mother and Robert want Ruby to be subjected to a death penalty. And in that we differ.

Mr. RANKIN. Have they told you the reason why they wanted the death penalty imposed?

Mrs. OSWALD. In their view, a killing has to be repaid by a killing. In my opinion, it is not so.

Mr.. RANKIN. Is there anything more about the assassination of President Kennedy that you know that you have not told the Commission?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, I don't know anything.

Mr. RANKIN. Is there anything that your husband ever told you about proposing to assassinate President Kennedy that you haven't told the Commission?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, I don't know that.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, Mrs. Oswald, we will turn to some period in Russia, and ask you about that for a little while.

Can you tell us the time and place of your birth?

Mrs. OSWALD. I was born on July 17, 1941, in Severo Dvinsk, in the Arkhangelskaya Region.

Mr. RANKIN. Who were your parents?

Mrs. OSWALD. Names?

Mr. RANKIN. Yes, please.

Mrs. OSWALD. My mother was Clogia Vasilyevna Proosakova. She was a laboratory assistant.

Mr. RANKIN. And your father?

Mrs. OSWALD. And I had a stepfather. I had no father. I never knew him.

Mr. RANKIN. Who did you live with as a child?

Mrs. OSWALD. With my stepfather, with my mother, and sometimes with my grandmother--grandmother on my mother's side.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you live with your grandparents before you went back to live with your mother and your stepfather?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I lived with my grandmother until I was approximately five years old.

Mr. RANKIN. And then you moved to live with your mother and your stepfather, did you?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. And was that in Leningrad?

Mrs. OSWALD. After the war, we lived in Moldavia for some time. After the war it was easier to live there, better to live there. And then we returned to Leningrad where we lived with my stepfather's mother--also with my half brother and half sister.

Mr. RANKIN. What was your stepfather's business?

Mrs. OSWALD. He was an electrician in a power station in Leningrad.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you have brothers and sisters?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. How many?

Mrs. OSWALD. One brother, one sister--from my mother's second marriage.

Mr. RANKIN. How old were they?

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Mrs. OSWALD. How old are they, or were they?

Mr. RANKIN. Are they--I mean in comparison with your age. Were they three or four years older than you?

Mr. OSWALD. My brother is 5 years younger than I am. My sister is probably 9 years younger than I am.

About four years between brother and sister.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether your stepfather was a member of the Communist Party?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. That is, you don't know, or you know he was not?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, I know that he was not a member.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you live for a period with your mother alone?

Mrs. OSWALD. No. After my mother's death, I continued to live with my stepfather, and later went to live in Minsk, with my uncle--my mother's brother.

Mr. RANKIN. What was your stepfather's name?

Mrs. OSWALD. Alexandr Ivanovich Medvedev.

Mr. RANKIN. When did you leave the home of your stepfather?

Mrs. OSWALD. In 1961. No--1959.

Mr. RANKIN. What was your grandfather's occupation?

Mrs. OSWALD. On my mother's side?

Mr. RANKIN. Yes.

Mrs. OSWALD. He was a ship's captain.

Mr. RANKIN. Was he a member of the Communist Party?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, He died shortly after the war.

Mr. RANKIN. Which war?

Mrs. OSWALD. Second.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you get along well with your grandparents?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I was their favorite.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you get along with your stepfather?

Mrs. OSWALD. No. I was not a good child. I was too fresh with him.

Mr. RANKIN. Did your mother and your stepfather move to Zguritsa?

Mrs. OSWALD. That is in Moldavia, where we lived. That is after the war. It was a very good life there. They still had some kulaks, a lot of food, and we lived very well.

After the war, people lived there pretty well, but they were dekulakized subsequently.

By the way, I don't understand all of that, because these people worked with their own hands all their lives. I was very sorry when I heard that everything had been taken away from them and they had been sent somewhere to Siberia where after living in the south it would be very cold.

Mr. RANKIN. Did your mother have any occupation?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, laboratory assistant--I said that.

Mr. RANKIN. Was she a member of the Communist Party?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall when your mother died?

Mrs. OSWALD. In 1957.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you receive a pension after your mother's death?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. How much was it?

Mrs. OSWALD. All children received pensions. We received for it 3520 rubles, the old rubles.

Mr. RANKIN. Was that called a children's pension?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. It was paid up to majority, up to the age of 18.

Mr. RANKIN. And was it paid to you directly or to your stepfather?

Mrs. OSWALD. It was paid to me directly.

Mr. RANKIN. Did your brother and sister get a similar pension?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Did your stepfather adopt you?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, I was not adopted.

Mr. RANKIN. What was your relationship with your half brother? Did you get along with him?

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Mrs. OSWALD. I loved them very much, and they loved me.

Mr. RANKIN. And your half sister, too?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. They are very good children. Not like me.

Mr. RANKIN. Will you tell us what schools you went to?

Mrs. OSWALD. At first I went to school in Moldavia, and later in Leningrad, in a girts school and then after finishing school I studied in a pharmaceutical institute pharmaceutical school, rather than institute.

Mr. RANKIN. Where was the pharmaceutical school?

Mrs. OSWALD. In Leningrad.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you go through high school before you went to the pharmaceutical school?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall the names of any of your teachers?

Mrs. OSWALD. Dmitry Rossovsky. I remember the director of the school, Nadelman Matvey Akimovich. It is hard to remember now. I have already forgotten. I have had good teachers. They treated me very well, they helped me after my mother died. Knowing my difficult nature, they approached me very pedagogically. But now I would have changed that nature.

Mr. RANKIN. Were you a good student?

Mrs. OSWALD. I was capable but lazy. I never spent much time studying. You know, everything came to me very easily. Sometimes my ability saved me. My language, you know--I talk a lot, and get a good grade.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you work part-time while you were going to school?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. The money which I received on the pension was not enough, and therefore I had to work as well as study.

Mr. RANKIN. And what did you do in working?

Mrs. OSWALD. At first I worked in a school cafeteria, school lunchroom. This was good for me, because I also got enough to eat that way.

And then I felt the work was not for me, that it was too restricted, and then I worked in a pharmacy. Then when I graduated I worked in a pharmacy as a full-fledged pharmacist--as a pharmacist's assistant.

Mr. RANKIN. Before you graduated, how much were you paid for your work?

Mrs. OSWALD. I think I received 36 per month--this is new rubles--at that time it was still 360 old rubles. But I could eat there three times a day. And then this was a lunchroom that was part of a large restaurant where everyone liked me and I always was treated to all sorts of tidbits and candy. I remember they had some busboys there who always saved something for me.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you save any money while you were working before you graduated?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know how to save money. I like to make presents.

Mr. RANKIN. Where did you work after you graduated?

Mrs. OSWALD. I was assigned to work in Leningrad, but my stepfather didn't want me to remain with him because he thought perhaps he would marry again, and, therefore, I left.

But he hasn't married up until now.

Mr. RANKIN. I hand you Exhibit 20, and ask you if you know what that is.

Mrs. OSWALD. This is my diploma. My goodness, what did they do with my diploma?

I can't work with it. The government seal is missing. Who will give me a new diploma?

Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, I want to explain to you--the Commission hasn't done anything to your diploma. We are informed that----

Mrs. OSWALD. They should have treated it a little more carefully, though.

Mr. RANKIN. The process was trying to determine fingerprints. It wasn't our action.

Mrs. OSWALD. There must be many fingerprints on there. All of my teachers and everybody that ever looked at it. I am sorry--it is a pity for my diploma.

Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibit 20.

The CHAIRMAN. It may be marked.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 20, and received in evidence.)

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Mr. RANKIN. Do you know why on Exhibit 20 there is no date of admission to the school?

Mrs. OSWALD. There is no entrance date on it, but it does show the date of issue and the date of graduation.

Mr. RANKIN. Isn't there a place for admission, though?

Mrs. OSWALD Yes, there is a place for it.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know when you were admitted to the school?

Mrs. OSWALD. In 1955.

Mr. KRIMER. I might mention the place here is for the year only, not for a full date.

Mr. DULLES. 1955. did you say?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, 1955.

Mr. RANKIN. In this job that you obtained after you left the school, what were your duties?

Mrs. OSWALD. When I worked in the pharmacy?

Mr. RANKIN. Yes.

Mrs. OSWALD. I worked in a hospital pharmacy. I prepared prescriptions. After the rounds every day, the doctors prescribed prescriptions, and the nurses of each department of the hospital enter that in a book, and turn it over to the pharmacy for preparation, where we again transcribed it from the nurses' book as a prescription and prepared it.

Mr. RANKIN. Were you assigned to a particular job or did you go out and get the job? How was that arranged?

Mrs. OSWALD. Generally upon graduation there is an assignment. I was sent to work to a drug warehouse in Leningrad. But this work was not very interesting, because everything was in packages. It is more of a warehousing job. And, therefore, if I had wanted to change I could have changed to any pharmacy. This Assignment is only performed in order to guarantee that the graduate has a job. But the graduate can go to work somewhere else.

Mr. RANKIN. How long did you stay in this first job?

Mrs. OSWALD. I was there for three days, which is a probationary period. intended to have the employee familiarize himself with his duties. I didn't like that work, and I went to Minsk, and worked there. I worked there in my own specialty with pleasure. But the reference which I received after I was going to the United States was not very good, because they were very dissatisfied with the fact that I was going to the United States. They could not understand how could it be that a good worker could leave.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you select Minsk as a place to go and work yourself?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. You were not assigned there, then?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Could you have selected other places that you wished to go to and work?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, but the registration is very difficult. In Russia you cannot settle in a large city if you are not registered.

Mr. RANKIN. What do you mean by that?

Mrs. OSWALD. If I lived in Leningrad, I had the right to work there. But if someone would come there from a village he would not have the right to work, because he was not registered and he would not be permitted to. But to move from a larger city to a smaller one, then they may register, such as Minsk.

Mr. RANKIN. By register, do you mean that if you want to go to a place like Leningrad, you had to be recorded some way in the city?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, that is, registered in the police department.

Mr. RANKIN. And if you were not registered, they would not give you a job, is that what you mean?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

No, you would not get a job. There are people who want to come to Leningrad. The housing problem has not been solved.

Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell us how you get registered if you would like to be registered in Leningrad from some other point?

Mrs. OSWALD. First you must have relatives who might have some spare living

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space for a person. Sometimes people who have money buy that. You know money does a great deal everywhere.

Mr. RANKIN. And then after you have shown that you have a place to live, do they register you as a matter of course, or do you have to have something else?

Mrs. OSWALD. Not always One has to have connections, acquaintances.

Mr. RANKIN. Were you registered in Leningrad before you left there?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, of course. But if I had spent one year not living in Leningrad, and were to return, I would not be registered.

Mr. RANKIN. But since you were registered there, you could have found a position in some pharmacy or pharmaceutical work there, could you?

Mrs. OSWALD. Oh, yes, of course.

Mr. RANKIN. Then, can you tell us how you decided to go to Minsk instead of staying in Leningrad?

Mrs. OSWALD. I was very sorry to leave Leningrad, but there were family circumstances.

What can one do?

It is not very pleasant to be a sty in the eye of a stepfather.

Mr. RANKIN. So it is because you liked to leave your stepfather's home that you sought some other city in which to work?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. I had no other place to live in Leningrad, and I did not have enough money to pay for an apartment.

I received 45 and I would have had to pay 30 for an apartment.

Mr. RANKIN. Could you have gotten a job in Leningrad if you stayed there that would pay you so you could have an apartment?

Mrs. OSWALD. Pharmaceutical workers received comparatively little, which is quite undeserved, because they have to study so long, and it is responsible work. Teachers and doctors also receive very little.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you conclude that you could not get a job that would pay you enough to live in your own apartment in Leningrad, then?

Mrs. OSWALD. If I had an apartment in Leningrad. I would have had to work overtime hours in order to be able to pay for it, because the normal workday is only 6 1/2 hours, because they consider that to be hazardous work.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you have a social life while you were in Leningrad?

Mrs. OSWALD. What do you mean by social life?

Mr. RANKIN. Did you have friends that you went out with in the evening, pleasant times?

Mrs. OSWALD. An awful lot.

Mr. RANKIN. So that except for the problem of your stepfather, you enjoyed it there?

Mrs. OSWALD. Oh, yes, of course.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you have any vacations while you were in Leningrad?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. After working in Minsk for one year 1 received a vacation and went to a rest home near Leningrad.

Mr. RANKIN. How long did you stay there on vacation?

Mrs. OSWALD. Three weeks. Three weeks in the rest home, and one week I spent in Leningrad with some friends.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall the name of the rest home?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you have to ask anyone in Leningrad in order to be able to leave there to go to Minsk, or you just go to Minsk and ask the people there to register you?

Mrs. OSWALD. I simply bought a ticket and went to Minsk, to my uncle.

Mr. RANKIN. And were you registered there then?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. What kind of pay did you get when you worked in Minsk?

Mrs. OSWALD. Forty-five, as everywhere.

Mr. RANKIN. Was that per week?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, that is a month. That is not America.

Mr. RANKIN. Is that 45 rubles?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Per month?

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Mr. DULLES. Old rubles or new rubles?

Mr. RANKIN. Is that old rubles?

Mrs. OSWALD. New rubles.

Mr. RANKIN. What were your hours in this work?

Mrs. OSWALD. 10 a.m. to 4:30 p.m.

Mr. RANKIN. When you said this same pay was paid all over, did you mean to say that you got the same amount regardless of whether you were in a big city or a small city?

Mrs. OSWALD. This is the pharmacists rate everywhere. Unless you work in a specialized sort of an institution, such as a military hospital--there the pay is higher.

Mr. RANKIN. What was the nature of your work?

Mrs. OSWALD. Preparation of prescriptions.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you supervise the preparation of the prescriptions, or did you just put them up yourself?

Mrs. OSWALD. I prepared them myself.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you have a supervisor?

Mrs. OSWALD. I was in charge of myself. If I was working at a table, I was responsible for it.

Of course every institution is in charge of a supervisor who does not prepare meditations--he is only an administrator.

Mr. RANKIN. How many days of the week did you work on this job?

Mrs. OSWALD. Six days. Except if a holiday falls upon a weekday. Then I didn't work.

Mr. RANKIN. Were these prescriptions prepared only for patients in the hospital?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. Sometimes we prepared something for ourselves or for friends, or somebody would ask us.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you pay anything to your uncle and aunt for staying there?

Mrs. OSWALD. No. They had--they were well provided for, and my uncle wanted that I spend the money on myself.

Mr. RANKIN. What was the name of this uncle?

Mrs. OSWALD. Ilva Vasilyevich Proosakov.

Mr. RANKIN. What was the nature of his work?

Mrs. OSWALD. He works in the Ministry of the Interior of the Byelorussian SSR.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he have something to do with lumbering?

Mrs. OSWALD. He is an engineer. He is a graduate of a forestry institute. Technical institute.

Mr. RANKIN. Is he an officer?

Mrs. OSWALD. He was a colonel--a lieutenant colonel or colonel, I think.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he have a nice apartment compared with the others?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, very nice.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he have a telephone in the apartment?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Were you supporting yourself during this period except for the fact you didn't pay anything for your room and board?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you save money?

Mrs. OSWALD. No. I would receive my pay and I would spend everything in one day--three days tops.

Mr. RANKIN. What would you spend it for?

Mrs. OSWALD. First all the necessary things which I had to buy shoes, an overcoat for winter. It is cold there, and, therefore, you have to wear warm clothes.

Mr. RANKIN. Was your uncle a member of the Communist Party?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, he is a Communist.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you belong to any organizations during this period in Minsk?

Mrs. OSWALD. First I was a member of the Trade Union. Then I joined the Comsomol, but I was discharged after one year.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know why you were discharged?

Mrs. OSWALD. I paid my membership dues regularly, and at first they didn't

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know who I was or what I was, but after they found out that I had married an American and was getting ready to go to the United States, I was discharged from the Comsomol. They said that I had anti-Soviet views, even though I had no anti-Soviet views of any kind.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you think that they thought you had anti-Soviet views because you married an American?

Mrs. OSWALD. They didn't say that.

Mr. RANKIN. Did they give any reason, other than the fact that you had them?

Mrs. OSWALD. They never gave that as a direct reason, because the Soviet Government was not against marrying an American. But every small official wants to keep his place, and he is afraid of any troubles. I think it was sort of insurance.

Mr. RANKIN. Was there any kind of a hearing about your being let out of the Comsomol?

Mrs. OSWALD. Oh, yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you attend?

Mrs. OSWALD. I didn't go there, and they discharged me without me--I was very glad. There was even a reporter there from Comsomol paper, Comsomol Pravda, I think. He tried to shame me quite strongly-for what, I don't know. And he said that he would write about this in the paper, and I told him "Go ahead and write."

But he didn't write anything, because, after all, what could he write?

Mr. RANKIN. Did you make any objection to being removed from the Comsomol?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you belong to any social clubs there?

Mrs. OSWALD.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you belong to any culture groups?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you go out with groups of students in the evening?

Mrs. OSWALD. Of course.

Mr. RANKIN. After you came to the United States, did you correspond with some of these friends?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, but these were not the same friends. They were generally some girl friends before I was married and some friends we made later.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you have a social life there at Minsk?

Mrs. OSWALD. Of course.

Mr. RANKIN. What did that social life consist of? Did you go to parties or to the opera or theater, or what?

Mrs. OSWALD. Sometimes we met at the home of some friends. Of course we went to the opera, to the theater, to concerts, to the circus. To a restaurant.

Mr. RANKIN. When did you first meet Lee Oswald?

Mrs. OSWALD. The first time when I went to a dance, to a party. And there I met Lee.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall the date?

Mrs. OSWALD. On March 4th.

Mr. RANKIN. What year?

Mrs. OSWALD. 1961.

Mr. RANKIN. Where did you meet him?

Mrs. OSWALD. In Minsk.

Mr. RANKIN. Yes--but can you tell us the place?

Mrs. OSWALD. In the Palace of Trade Unions.

Mr. RANKIN. What kind of a place is that? Is that where there are public meetings?

Mrs. OSWALD. Sometimes they do have meetings there. Sometimes it is also rented by some institutes who do not have their own halls for parties.

Mr. RANKIN. They have dances?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. Every Saturday and Sunday.

Mr. RANKIN. Did someone introduce you to him?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Who introduced you?

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Mrs. OSWALD. I had gone there with my friends from the medical institute, and one of them introduced me to Lee.

Mr. RANKIN. What was his name?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yuri Mereginsky.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know by what name Lee Oswald was introduced to you?

Mrs. OSWALD. Everyone there called him Alec, at his place of work, because Lee is an unusual, cumbersome name. For Russians it was easier--this was easier.

Mr. RANKIN. Is Alec a name close to Lee, as far as the Russian language is concerned?

Mrs. OSWALD. A little. Somewhat similar.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you know that Lee Oswald was an American when you first met him?

Mrs. OSWALD. I found that out at the end of that party, towards the end of that party, when I was first introduced to him, I didn't know that.

Mr. RANKIN. Did that make any difference?

Mrs. OSWALD. It was more interesting, of course. You don't meet Americans very often.

Mr. RANKIN. After this first meeting, did you meet him a number of times?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Can you describe just briefly how you met him and saw him?

Mrs. OSWALD. After the first meeting he asked me where he could meet me again. I said that perhaps some day I will come back here again, to the Palace. About a week later I came there again with my girl friend, and he was there.

Mr. RANKIN. And did he have a period that he was in the hospital there?

Mrs. OSWALD. I had arranged to meet with him again. I had already given him a telephone number. But he went to a hospital and he called me from there. We had arranged to meet on a Friday, and he called from the hospital and said he couldn't because he was in the hospital and I should come there, if I could.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you learn what was wrong with him then?

Mrs. OSWALD. He was near the ear, nose and throat section and it seems that he had something wrong with his ears and also the glands or polyps.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you visit him regularly for some period of time?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, quite frequently, because I felt sorry for him being there alone.

Mr. RANKIN. And did you observe a scar on his left arm?

Mrs. OSWALD. He had a scar, but I found that out only after we were married.

Mr. RANKIN. What did you find out about that scar?

Mrs. OSWALD. When I asked him about it, he became very angry and asked me never to ask about that again.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he ever explain to you what caused the scar?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever learn what caused the scar?

Mrs. OSWALD. I found out here, now, recently.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you learn that he had tried to commit suicide at some time?

Mrs. OSWALD. I found that out now.

Mr. RANKIN. During the time Lee Oswald was courting you, did he talk about America at all?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, of course.

Mr. RANKIN. What do you recall that he said about it?

Mrs. OSWALD. At that time, of course, he was homesick, and perhaps he was sorry for having come to Russia. He said many good things. He said that his home was warmer and that people lived better.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he talk about returning?

Mrs. OSWALD. Then? No.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he describe the life in America as being very attractive?

Mrs OSWALD. Yes. At least in front of others he always defended it.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he----

Mrs. OSWALD. It is strange to reconcile this. When he was there he was saying good things about America.

Mr. RANKIN. And when he was talking only to you, did he do that, too?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

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Mr. RANKIN. Before you were married, did you find out anything about his plans to return to America?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you learn anything before you were married about the fact that there might be some doubt whether he could return to the United States?

Mrs. OSWALD. Once before we were married we had a talk and I asked him whether he could return to the United States if he wanted to, and he said no, he could not.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you why?

Mrs. OSWALD. No. At that time, he didn't. He said that when he had arrived, he had thrown his passport on a table and said that he would not return any more to the United States. He thought that they would not forgive him such an act.

Mr. RANKIN. Before you were married, did you ever say to him you would like to go to the United States?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell us what attracted you to him?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know. First, the fact that he was he didn't look like others. You could see he was an American. He was very neat, very polite, not the way he was here, not as you know him here. And it seemed that he would be a good family man. And he was good.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you talk about many things when you were together, when he was courting you?

Mrs. OSWALD. We talked about everything, about the moon and the weather.

Mr. RANKIN. Where was he living at that time?

Mrs. OSWALD. In Minsk. By the way, on the same street where I lived.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he have an apartment?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. By the way, this was the same apartment where I had dreamed to live. I didn't know about it yet. It had a very beautiful balcony, terrace. I would look at that building sometimes and say it would be good to visit in that building, visit someone there, but I never thought that I would wind up living there.

Mr. RANKIN. Can you describe the number of rooms there were in his apartment?

Mrs. OSWALD. We had a small room--one room, kitchen, foyer, and bathroom. A large terrace, balcony.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know what he paid for rent?

Mrs. OSWALD. For two it was quite sufficient. Seven and a-half rubles per month.

Mr. RANKIN. Wasn't that pretty cheap for such a nice apartment?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, it was cheap.

Mr. RANKIN. Was this apartment nicer than most in this city?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, in that city they have good apartments because the houses are new. That is, on a Russian scale, of course. You cannot compare it to private houses people live in here.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he have an automobile?

Mrs. OSWALD. Oh, no. In Russia this is a problem. In Russia it is difficult to have an automobile.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he have a television set?

Mrs. OSWALD. No. Only a radio receiver, a record player.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you have a telephone?

Mrs. OSWALD. No--I don't like television.

Mr. RANKIN. Why?

Mrs. OSWALD. The programs are not always interesting, and you can get into a stupor just watching television. It is better to go to the movies.

Mr. RANKIN. What was his occupation at this time?

Mrs. OSWALD. He worked in a radio plant in Minsk.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know what his work was?

Mrs. OSWALD. As an ordinary laborer--metal worker. From that point of view, he was nothing special. I had a greater choice in the sense that many of my friends were engineers and doctors. But that is not the main thing.

Mr. RANKIN. Did others with a similar job have similar apartments?

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Mrs. OSWALD. The house in which we lived belonged to the factory in which Lee worked. But, of course, no one had a separate apartment for only two persons. I think that Lee had been given better living conditions, better than others, because he was an American. If Lee had been Russian, and we would have had two children, we could not have obtained a larger apartment. But since he was an American, we would have obtained the larger one. It seems to me that in Russia they treat foreigners better than they should. It would be better if they treated Russians better. Not all foreigners are better than the Russians.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he say whether he liked this job?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, he didn't like it.

Mr. RANKIN. What did he say about it?

Mrs. OSWALD. First of all, he was being ordered around by someone. He didn't like that.

Mr. RANKIN. Anything else?

Mrs. OSWALD. And the fact that it was comparatively dirty work.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he say anything about the Russian system, whether he liked it or not?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. He didn't like it. Not everything, but some things.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he say anything about Communists and whether he liked that?

Mrs. OSWALD. He didn't like Russian Communists. He said that they joined the party not because of the ideas, but in order to obtain better living conditions and to get the benefit of them.

Mr. RANKIN. Did it appear to you that he had become disenchanted with the Soviet system?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, he had expected much more when he first arrived.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he ever tell you why he came to Russia?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. He said he had read a great deal about Russia, he was interested in seeing the country, which was the first in the Socialist camp about which much had been said, and he wanted to see it with his own eyes. And, therefore, he wanted to be not merely a tourist, who is being shown only the things that are good, but he wanted to live among the masses and see.

But when he actually did, it turned out to be quite difficult.

The CHAIRMAN. I think we better adjourn now for the day.

(Whereupon, at 4:30 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)

Thursday, February 6, 1964

TESTIMONY OF MRS. LEE HARVEY OSWALD RESUMED

The President's Commission met at 10 a.m. on February 6, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C.

Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Senator John Sherman Cooper, Representative Hale Boggs, Representative Gerald R. Ford, and Allen W. Dulles, members.

Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; Melvin Aron Eisenberg, assistant counsel; Norman Redlich, assistant counsel; William D. Krimer, and Leon I. Gopadze, interpreters; and John M. Thorne, attorney for Mrs. Lee Harvey Oswald.

The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will be in order. We will proceed again. Mr. Rankin?

Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, if I may return a moment with you to the time that you told us about your husband practicing with the rifle at Love Field. As I recall your testimony, you said that he told you that he had taken the rifle and practiced with it there, is that right?

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Mrs. OSWALD. I knew that he practiced with it there. He told me, later.

Mr. RANKIN. And by practicing with it, did you mean that he fired the rifle there, as you understood it?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know what he did with it there. He probably fired it. But I didn't see him.

Mr. RANKIN. And then you said that you had seen him cleaning it after he came back, is that right?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, do you recall your husband having any ammunition around the house at any time?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. And where do you remember his having it in the places you lived?

Mrs. OSWALD. On Neely Street, in Dallas, and New Orleans.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether that was rifle ammunition or rifle and pistol ammunition?

Mrs. OSWALD. I think it was for the rifle. Perhaps he had some pistol ammunition there, but I would not know the difference.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you observe how much ammunition he had at any time?

Mrs. OSWALD. He had a box of about the size of this.

Mr. RANKIN. Could you give us a little description of how you indicated the box? Was it 2 or 3 inches wide?

Mrs. OSWALD. About the size here on the pad.

Mr. RANKIN. About 3 inches wide and 6 inches long?

Mrs. OSWALD. Probably.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, do you recall that you said to your husband at any time that he was just studying Marxism so he could get attention?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. In order to cause him not to be so involved in some of these ideas, did you laugh at some of his ideas that he told you about, and make fun of him?

Mrs. OSWALD. Of course.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he react to that?

Mrs. OSWALD. He became very angry.

Mr. RANKIN. And did he ask you at one time, or sometimes, not to make fun of his ideas?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, returning to the period in Russia, while your husband was courting you, did you talk to him, he talk to you, about his childhood?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, not very much. Only in connection with photographs, where he was a boy in New York. in the zoo. Then in the Army--there is a snapshot taken right after he joined the Army.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you about anything he resented about his childhood?

Mrs. OSWALD. He said it was hard for him during his childhood, when he was a boy, because there was a great age difference between him and Robert, and Robert was in some sort of a private school. He also wanted to have a chance to study, but his mother was working, and he couldn't get into a private school, and he was very sorry about it.

Mr. RANKIN. In talking about that, did he indicate a feeling that he had not had as good an opportunity as his brother Robert?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. When he talked about his service in the Marines, did he tell you much about what he did?

Mrs. OSWALD. He didn't talk much about it, because there wasn't very much there of interest to me. But he was satisfied.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he indicate that he was unhappy about his service with the Marines?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, he had good memories of his service in the Army. He said that the food was good and that sometimes evenings he had a chance to go out.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he say anything about his mother during this period of time?

Mrs. OSWALD. This was before we were married. I had once asked Lee whether

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he had a mother, and he said he had no mother. I started to question him as to what had happened, what happened to her, and he said that I should not question him about it.

After we were married, he told me that he had not told me the truth, that he did have a mother, but that he didn't love her very much.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you why he didn't love her?

Mrs. OSWALD No.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall anything more he said about his brother Robert at that time?

Mrs. OSWALD. He said that he had a good wife, that he had succeeded fairly well in life, that he was smart and capable.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he say anything about having any affection for him?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, he loved Robert. He said. that when Robert married Vada that his mother had been against the marriage and that she had made a scene, and this was one of the reasons he didn't like his mother.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he say anything about his half brother, by the name of Pic--I guess the last name was Pic--Robert Pic?

Mrs. OSWALD. He said that he had a half brother by the name of Pic from his mother's first marriage, but he didn't enlarge upon the subject. It is only that I knew he had a half brother by that name.

He said that at one time they lived with. this John Pic and his wife, but that his wife and the mother frequently had arguments, quarrels. He said it was hard for him to witness these scenes, it was unpleasant.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you regard your husband's wage or salary at Minsk as high for the work he was doing?

Mr. OSWALD. No. He received as much as the others in similar jobs.

Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband have friends in Minsk when you first met him?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. How did he seem to get along with these friends?

Mrs. OSWALD. He had a very good relationship with them.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he discuss any of them with you?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Will you tell us when you married your husband?

Mrs. OSWALD. April 30, 1961.

Mr. RANKIN. Was there a marriage ceremony?

Mrs. OSWALD. Not in a church, of course. But in the institution called Zags, where we were registered.

Mr. RANKIN. Was anyone else present at the ceremony?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, our friends were there.

Mr. RANKIN. Who else was there?

Mrs. OSWALD. No one besides my girlfriends and some acquaintances. My uncle and aunt were busy preparing the house, and they were not there for that reason.

Mr. RANKIN. After you were married did you go to live in your husband's apartment there?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you buy any new furniture?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. When was your baby born?

Mrs. OSWALD. February 15, 1962.

Mr. RANKIN. What is her name?

Mrs. OSWALD. June Lee Oswald.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you stop working before the birth of the baby?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you return to work after the baby was born?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. How did you and your husband get along during the period that you were in Minsk, after you were married?

Mrs. OSWALD. We lived well.

Mr. RANKIN. Were you a member of the trade union at Minsk?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

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Mr. RANKIN. Did you have a membership booklet?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, a booklet,

Mr. RANKIN. I hand you Exhibit 21 and ask you if that is the trade union booklet that you had there.

Mrs. OSWALD. I never have a good photograph.

Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 21.

The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted and take the next number.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 21 and received in evidence.)

Mr. RANKIN. Did you pay dues to the trade union?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. We didn't notice any notation of dues payments in this booklet, Exhibit 21. Do you know why that was?

Mrs. OSWALD. I forgot to paste the stamps in.

Mr. RANKIN. That is for the period between 1956 and 1959, they don't seem to be in there.

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. But you made the payments--you just didn't put the stamps in, is that right?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. Simply because this is not important. I got the stamps, but the stubs remained with the person to whom I made the payment.

Mr. RANKIN. We noted that the book shows a birth date of 1940 rather than 1941. Do you know how that happened?

Mrs. OSWALD. The girl who prepared this booklet thought that I was older and put down 1940 instead of 1941.

Mr. RANKIN. The booklet doesn't seem to show any registration in Minsk. Do you know why that would occur?

Mrs. OSWALD. Because the booklet was issued in Leningrad.

Mr. RANKIN. Is it the practice to record a registration in a city that you move to, or isn't that a practice that is followed?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband engage in any Communist Party activities while he was in the Soviet Union?

Mrs. OSWALD. Not at all--absolutely not.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether he was a member of any organization there?

Mrs. OSWALD. I think that he was also a member of a trade union, as everybody who works belongs to a trade union. Then he had a card from a hunting club, but he never visited it. He joined the club, apparently.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he go hunting while he was there?

Mrs. OSWALD. We only went once, with him and with my friends.

Mr. RANKIN. Was that when he went hunting for squirrels?

Mrs. OSWALD. If he marked it down in his notebook that he went hunting for squirrels, he never did. Generally they wanted to kill a squirrel when we went there, or some sort of a bird, in order to boast about it, but they didn't.

Mr. RANKIN. Were there any times while he was in the Soviet Union after your marriage that you didn't know where he went?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. When did you first learn that he was planning to try to go back to the United States?

Mrs. OSWALD. After we were married, perhaps a month after.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you discuss the matter at that time?

Mrs. OSWALD. We didn't discuss it--we talked about it because we didn't make any specific plans.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall what you said about it then?

Mrs. OSWALD. I said, "Well, if we will go, we will go. If we remain, it doesn't make any difference to me. If we go to China, I will also go."

Mr. RANKIN. Did you and your husband make a trip to Moscow in connection with your plans to go to the United States?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. We went to the American Embassy.

Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband make a trip to Moscow alone before that? About his passport?

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Mrs. OSWALD. He didn't go alone. He actually left a day early and the following morning I was to come there.

Mr. RANKIN. I understood that he didn't get any permission to make this trip to Moscow away from Minsk. Do you know whether that is true?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know about this. I know that he bought a ticket and he made the flight.

Mr. RANKIN. According to the practice, then, would he be permitted to go to Moscow from Minsk without the permission of the authorities?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know whether he had the right to go to Moscow. Perhaps he did, because he had a letter requesting him to visit the Embassy. But he could not go to another city without permission of the authorities.

Mr. RANKIN. When the decision was made to come to the United States, did you discuss that with your family?

Mrs. OSWALD. First when we made the decision, we didn't know what would come of it later, what would happen further. And Lee asked me not to talk about it for the time being.

Mr. RANKIN. Later, did you discuss it with your family?

Mrs. OSWALD. Later when I went to visit the Embassy, my aunt found out about it, because they had telephoned from work, and she was offended because I had not told her about it. They were against our plan.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you tell your friends about your plans after you were trying to arrange to go to the United States?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Was there some opposition by people in the Soviet Union to your going to the United States?

Mrs. OSWALD. Somewhat. You can't really can that opposition. There were difficult times.

Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell us what you mean by that?

Mrs. OSWALD. First, the fact that I was excluded from the Komsomol. This was not a blow for me, but it was, of course, unpleasant. Then all kinds of meetings were arranged and members of the various organizations talked to me. My aunt and uncle would not talk to me for a long time.

Mr. RANKIN. And that was all because you were planning to go to the United States?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Were you hospitalized and received medical treatment because of all of these things that happened at that time, about your leaving?

Mrs. OSWALD. No. What?

Mr. RANKIN. Did you have any nervous disorder in 1961 that you were hospitalized for?

Mrs. OSWALD. I was nervous, but: I didn't go to the hospital. I am nervous now, too.

Mr. RANKIN. Then you went to Kharkov on a vacation, didn't you?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

If you have a record of the fact that I was in the hospital, yes, I was. But I was in the hospital only as a precaution because I was pregnant. I have a negative Rh factor, blood Rh factor, and if Lee had a positive they thought--they thought that he had positive--even though he doesn't. It turned out that we beth had the same Rh factor.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you receive a promotion about this time in the work you were doing?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, no one gets promoted. You work for 10 years as an assistant. All the assistants were on the same level. There were no sub-managers, except for the manager who was in charge of the pharmacy.

Mr. RANKIN. What I am asking is your becoming an assistant druggist. Was that something different?

Mrs. OSWALD. At first I was--I have to call it- an analyst. My job was to check prescriptions that had been prepared. There was no vacancy for an assistant, pharmacy assistant at first. But then I liked the work of a pharmacist's assistant better, and I changed to that.

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Mr. RANKIN. I will hand you Exhibit 22 and ask you if that is a book that shows that you were promoted or became an assistant druggist.

Mrs. OSWALD. The entry here said, "Hired as chemist analyst of the pharmacy."

The next entry says, "Transferred to the job of pharmacy assistant."

These are simply different types of work. But one is not any higher than the other--not because one is a type of management and the other is not. If someone prepared a prescription and I checked it, that was no different from the other work. There is a difference, of course, but not in the sense of a grade of service.

Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 22.

The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted and take the next number.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 22, and received in evidence.)

Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chairman, I ask leave at this time to substitute photostatic copies of any documentary evidence offered, and photographs of any physical evidence, with the understanding that the originals will be held subject to the further order of the Commission.

The CHAIRMAN. Very well. That may be done.

Mr. RANKIN. Were you aware of your husband's concern about being prosecuted with regard to his returning to the United States?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, he told me about it. He told me about it, that perhaps he might even be arrested.

Mr. RANKIN. Was he fearful of prosecution by the Soviet Union or by the United States?

Mrs. OSWALD. The United States.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall any time that the Soviet authorities Visited your husband while you were trying to go to the United States?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. What was the occasion for your traveling to Kharkov in 1961?

Mrs. OSWALD. My mother's sister lives there, and she had invited me to come there for a rest because I was on vacation.

Mr. RANKIN. Did anyone go with you?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. How long did you stay?

Mrs. OSWALD. Three weeks, I think.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you write to your husband while you were gone?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Was your aunt's name Mikhilova?

Mrs. OSWALD. Mikhilova, yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Was there any reason why you took this vacation alone and not with your husband?

Mrs. OSWALD. He was working at that time. He didn't have a vacation. He wanted to go with me, but he could not.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know what delayed your departure to the United States?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. There was some correspondence with the Embassy about your husband returning alone. Did you ever discuss that?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. What did he say about that, and what did you say?

Mrs. OSWALD. He said that if he did go alone, he feared that they would not permit me to leave, and that he would, therefore, wait for me.

Mr. RANKIN. What did you say?

Mrs. OSWALD. I thanked him for the fact that he wanted to wait for me.

Mr. RANKIN. Where did you stay in Moscow when you went there about your visa?

Mrs. OSWALD. At first, we stopped at the Hotel Ostamkino. And then we moved to the Hotel Berlin, formerly Savoy.

Mr. RANKIN. How long were you there on that trip?

Mrs. OSWALD. I think about 10 days, perhaps a little longer.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever have any status in the armed forces of the Soviet Union?

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Mrs. OSWALD. No. But all medical workers, military, are obligated--all medical workers have a military obligation. In the event of a war, we would be in first place.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever learn from your husband how he had his expenses in Moscow for the period prior to the time you went to Minsk?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. I hand you Exhibit 23 and ask you if that is a booklet that records your military status.

Mrs. OSWALD. I didn't work. It is simply that I was obligated. There is an indication there "non-Party member".

Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 23.

The CHAIRMAN. It may be received.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 23, and received in evidence.)

Mr. RANKIN. As I understand you, you did not serve in the armed forces of the Soviet Union, but because of your ability as a pharmacist, you were obligated, if the call was ever extended to you, is that right?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, that is correct.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know any reason why your husband was permitted to stay in the Soviet Union when he first came there?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know why----

Mrs. OSWALD. Many were surprised at that--here and in Russia.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know why he went to Minsk, or was allowed to go to Minsk?

Mrs. OSWALD. He was sent to Minsk.

Mr. RANKIN. By that, you mean by direction of the government?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband do any writing while he was in the Soviet Union that you know of?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, he wrote a diary about his stay in the Soviet Union.

Mr. RANKIN. I hand you Exhibit 24 and ask you if that is a photostatic copy of the diary that you have just referred to.

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, that is Lee's handwriting. It is a pity that I don't understand it.

Is that all? It seems to me there was more.

Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, that is all of the historic diary that we have received. There are some other materials that I will call your attention to, but apparently they are not part of that. I offer in evidence Exhibit 24.

The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted and take the next number.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 24, and received in evidence.)

Mrs. OSWALD. That is all that only has reference to this? Or is that everything that Lee had written?

Mr. RANKIN. No, it is not all that he ever wrote, but it is all that apparently fits together as a part of the descriptive diary in regard to the time he was in Russia.

Do you know when your husband made Exhibit 24, as compared with doing it daily or from time to time how it was made?

Mrs. OSWALD. Sometimes two or three days in a row. Sometimes he would not write at all. In accordance with the way he felt about it.

The CHAIRMAN. Mrs. Oswald, you said a few moments ago it was a pity that you could not read this. Would you like to have the interpreter read it to you later, so you will know what is in it? You may, if you wish.

Mrs. OSWALD. Some other time, later, when I know English myself perhaps.

The CHAIRMAN. You may see it any time you wish.

Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chairman, I just heard Mr. Thorne ask if there was any reason why they could not have photocopies of the exhibits. I know no reason.

The CHAIRMAN. No, there is no reason why you cannot. You may have it.

Mr. THORNE. Thank you.

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Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald has raised the question about whether this was complete. And this was all that was given us, as Exhibit 24, but we are going to check back on it to determine whether there was anything that may have been overlooked by the Bureau when they gave it to us.

Mrs. Oswald, your husband apparently made another diary that he wrote on some paper of the Holland America Line. Are you familiar with that?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. I will hand you Exhibit 25 and ask you if you recall having seen that.

Mrs. OSWALD. I know this paper, but I didn't know what was contained in it. I didn't know this was a diary.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know what it was?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Possibly I misdescribed it, Mrs. Oswald. It may be more accurately described as a story of his experiences in the Soviet Union.

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know even when he wrote this, whether this was aboard the ship or after we came to the United States. I only know the paper itself and the handwriting.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether it is your husband's handwriting?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 25. The Chairman. It may be admitted.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 25, and received in evidence.)

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall how much money you and your husband had in savings when you left Moscow for the United States?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know, because Lee did not tell me how much money he had, because he knew that if he would tell me I would spend everything. But I think that we might have had somewhere about 300 rubles, or somewhat more, 350 perhaps.

Mr. RANKIN. How did you travel from Moscow to the United States?

Mrs. OSWALD. I told you from Moscow by train, through Poland, Germany, and Holland, and from Holland by boat to New York. From New York to Dallas by air.

Mr. RANKIN. I think you told us by another ship from Holland. I wonder if it wasn't the SS Maasdam. Does that refresh your memory?

Mrs. OSWALD. Perhaps. I probably am mixed up in the names because it is a strange name.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall that you exchanged United States money for Polish money during this trip?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, in Warsaw, on the black market.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you buy food there?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. Some good Polish beer and a lot of candy.

By the way, we got an awful lot for one dollar, they were so happy to get it. More than the official rate.

Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband drink then?

Mrs. OSWALD. No. He doesn't drink beer, he doesn't drink anything, he doesn't like beer. I drank the beer. I don't like wine, by the way.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall that you or your husband were contacted at any time in the Soviet Union by Soviet intelligence people?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. During the time your husband was in the Soviet Union, did you observe any indication of mental disorder?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. How did he appear to get along with people that he knew in the Soviet Union?

Mrs. OSWALD. Very well. At least, he had friends there. He didn't have any here.

Mr. RANKIN. How much time did you spend in Amsterdam on the way to the United States?

Mrs. OSWALD. Two or three days, it seems to me.

Mr. RANKIN. What did you do there?

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Mrs. OSWALD. Walked around the city, did some sightseeing.

Mr. RANKIN. Did anybody visit you there?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you visit anyone?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. What hotel did you stay in?

Mrs. OSWALD. We didn't stop at a hotel. We stopped at a place where they rent apartments. The address was given to us in the American Embassy.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall what you paid in the way of rent?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, Lee paid it. I don't know.

Mr. RANKIN. How did your husband spend his time when he was aboard the ship?

Mrs. OSWALD. I was somewhat upset because he was a little ashamed to walk around with me, because I wasn't dressed as well as the other girls. Basically, I stayed in my cabin while Lee went to the movies and they have different games there. I don't know what he did there.

Mr. RANKIN. In Exhibit 25, the notations on the Holland American Line stationery, your husband apparently made some political observations. Did he discuss these with you while he was on the trip?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chairman, it is time for a recess.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes. We will take a recess now.

(Brief recess.)

The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will be in order. We will continue.

Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, can you tell us what your husband was reading in the Soviet Union after you were married, that you recall?

Mrs. OSWALD. He read the Daily Worker newspaper in the English language.

Mr. RANKIN. Anything else?

Mrs. OSWALD. It seems to me something like Marxism, Leninism, also in the English language. He did not have any choice of English books for reading purposes.

Mr. RANKIN. Was he reading anything in Russian at that time?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, newspapers, and nothing else.

Mr. RANKIN. No library books?

Mrs. OSWALD. No. It was very hard for him.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he go to any schools while he was in the Soviet Union that you know of?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. I hand you Exhibit 26 and ask you if you can tell us what that is.

Mrs. OSWALD. The title of this document is shown here, "Information for those who are departing for abroad. Personal data--name, last name, date of birth, place of birth, height, color of eyes and hair, married or not, and purpose of the trip."

Mr. RANKIN. What does it say about the purpose of the trip do you recall?

Mrs. OSWALD. Private exit.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall what members of your family are referred to there under that question?

Mrs. OSWALD. It shows here "none." I think before this was filled out--this was before June's birth.

Mr. RANKIN. That doesn't refer then to members of your family, like your uncles or aunts, or anything like that?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chairman, I offer in evidence Exhibit 26.

The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 26, and received in evidence.)

Mr. RANKIN. Now, I hand you Exhibit 27 and ask you if you can recall what that is.

Mrs. OSWALD. This is a questionnaire which has to be filled out prior to departure for abroad.

Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 27.

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The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 27, and received in evidence.)

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall what relatives you referred to when they asked for close relatives?

Mrs. OSWALD. It must be shown there. I don't remember. Probably my uncle.

Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, can you tell us the handwriting on this exhibit, No. 27?

Mrs. OSWALD. This is my handwriting.

Mr. RANKIN. You say it is all your handwriting?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, can you tell us what Exhibit 28 is?

Mrs. OSWALD. That is the same thing. This was a draft.

Mr. RANKIN. You mean a rough draft?

Mrs. OSWALD. A rough draft of the same thing.

Mr. RANKIN. And the other one is the final?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know. Perhaps there were several drafts, I don't know whether this is from the Embassy or from some other source. These are drafts, because the original would have had to have my photograph. Lee and I were playing.

Mr. RANKIN. Then, Mrs. Oswald, you think both Exhibit 27 and 28 are drafts, since neither one has your photograph on them?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. We were playing dominoes, and this is the score.

Mr. RANKIN. I ask that Exhibit 28 be received in evidence, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. It will be admitted.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 28, and received in evidence.)

Mr. RANKIN. I hand you Exhibit 29 and ask you if you can tell us what that is?

Mrs. OSWALD. This is a residence permit, passport--a passport for abroad. This is a foreign passport for Russians who go abroad.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you understand that you had six months in which to leave under that passport?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. This all has to be filled out before you are allowed to go abroad.

Mr. RANKIN. Whose handwriting is in Exhibit 29?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know who wrote that. It is not I. Officials who issue the passport.

Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 29.

The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 29, and received in evidence.)

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know any reason why the passport was made valid until January 11, 1964?

Mrs. OSWALD. Because the passport which I turned in and for which I received this one in exchange was valid until 1964.

Mr. RANKIN. You had a passport prior to this one, then?

Mrs. OSWALD. yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Had you obtained that before you were married?

Mrs. OSWALD. All citizens of the U.S.S.R. 16 and over must have a passport. It would be good if everyone had a passport here. It would help the Government more.

Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, you have told us considerably about your husband's unhappiness with the United States and his idea that things would be much better in Cuba, if he could get there. Do you recall that?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall what he said about what he didn't like about the United States?

Mrs. OSWALD. The problem of unemployment.

Mr. RANKIN. Anything else?

Mrs. OSWALD. I already said what he didn't like that it was hard to get

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an education, that medical care is very expensive. About his political dissatisfaction, he didn't speak to me.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he ever say anything against the leaders of the government here?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chairman, that is all we have now except the physical exhibits, and I think we could do that at 2 o'clock.

The CHAIRMAN. Mrs. Oswald, we are going to recess now until 2 o'clock. You must be quite tired by now. And this afternoon we are going to introduce some of the physical objects that are essential to make up our record.

When we finish with those, I think your testimony will be completed.

And I think we should finish today.

You won't be unhappy about that, will you?

Mrs. OSWALD. No. Thank you.

The CHAIRMAN. 2 o'clock this afternoon.

(Whereupon, at 11:35 a.m., the President's Commission recessed.)

Afternoon Session

TESTIMONY OF MRS. LEE HARVEY OSWALD RESUMED

The President's Commission reconvened at 2 p.m.

The CHAIRMAN. The Commission. will be in order. Mr. Rankin, you may continue.

Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chairman, I understand that Mrs. Oswald has examined a considerable volume of correspondence during the recess. In order to helpful, she has identified it, and she is able to tell, through her counsel, by a number for each exhibit, who the letter was to or from as the case may be.

And, after I offer the exhibits, or as part of the offer, I will ask Mr. Thorne if he will tell the description of the recipient and the writer of the letter in the various cases. These exhibits are Exhibits 30 through 65, inclusive.

Mr. THORNE. Exhibit No. 30 is a telegram from a former fiance's mother.

Exhibit No. 31 is a letter from her friend who studied with her, by the name of Ella Soboleva.

Exhibit No. 32 is a letter from the Ziger family, who are friends.

Exhibit No. 33 is another letter from Alexander Ziger. A friend of the families.

Exhibit No. 34 is a letter concerning departure to the United States by Marina and her husband. She doesn't know who sent the letter or who received it. It is merely some material that she has.

Exhibit No. 35 is an envelope from a friend which contained a letter which is not shown.

Exhibit No. 36 is a letter from a former fiance's mother, the same one that sent the telegram, and Exhibit No. 30.

Exhibit No. 37 is a letter from Marina to Lee while she was in the hospital, during the birth of June Lee.

Exhibit No. 38 is a letter from Olga Dmovskaya, a friend.

Mr. RANKIN. When you say fiance, do you mean she was engaged to someone else?

Mr. THORNE. This is what I understand--prior to her relationship to Lee.

Exhibit No. 39 is another letter from Ella Soboleva.

Exhibit No. 40 is a letter from Lee Harvey to Marina while she was in the hospital with June Lee, during the birth of the baby.

Exhibit No. 41 is a letter from her Aunt Valya.

Exhibit No. 42 is a letter from their friend Pavel.

Exhibit No. 43 is the start of a letter by Marina which was never finished.

Exhibit No. 44 is the start of a letter by Marina which was never finished.

Exhibit No. 45 is a letter from Olga Dmovskaya, the same person who sent a letter in Exhibit No. 38.

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Exhibit No. 46 is a letter-is another letter from Aunt Valya.

Exhibit No. 47 is a letter from a friend by the name of Tolya.

Exhibit No. 48 is an address of one of Marina's friends.

Exhibit No. 49 is Marina's draft of a letter to the consulate. May I see Exhibit 49? I am trying to clear up a point.

Mr. DULLES. What is the date of that?

Mrs. OSWALD. That is not a letter. That is an autobiography.

Mr. THORNE. Yes, that is correct. It is the draft of an autobiography for the Russian Consulate.

Exhibit No. 50 is a letter from a friend Erick Titovetz.

Exhibit No. 51 is another letter from Aunt Valya.

Exhibit No. 52 is a letter received by Marina while she was in the hospital with June Lee.

Exhibit No. 53 is Lee Harvey Oswald's writing.

Exhibit No. 54 is a letter from a friend, Laliya.

Exhibit No. 55 is a letter from Lee Harvey Oswald to Marina while she was in Kharkov.

Exhibit No. 56 is the same.

Exhibit No. 57 is a letter from Aunt Valya.

Exhibit No. 58 is a letter from Lee Harvey Oswald to Marina while she was in the hospital with June Lee.

Exhibit No. 59 is the same.

Exhibit No. 60 is the same.

Exhibit No. 61 is the same.

Exhibit No. 62 is a letter from Anna Meller, Who lives in Dallas, to Marina.

Exhibit No. 63 is a letter from Lee Harvey Oswald to Marina while she was in the hospital, giving birth to June Lee.

Exhibit No. 64 is a letter from Lee Harvey Oswald--is a letter to Lee from Erick Titovetz.

Exhibit No. 65 is the second page of Exhibit No. 62. That completes the exhibits.

Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibits 30 through 65, inclusive.

The CHAIRMAN. They may be admitted and take the appropriate numbers.

(The documents referred to were marked Commission Exhibit Nos. 30 through 65, inclusive, and received in evidence.)

Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, you remember I asked you about the diary that your husband kept. You said that he completed it in Russia before he came to this country, do you remember that?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether or not the entries that he made in that diary were made each day as the events occurred?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, not each day.

Mr. RANKIN. Were they noted shortly after the time they occurred?

Mrs. OSWALD. Not all events. What happened in Moscow I don't think that Lee wrote that in Moscow.

Mr. RANKIN. What about the entries concerning what happened in Minsk?

Mrs. OSWALD. He wrote this while he was working.

Mr. RANKIN. And you think those entries were made close to the time that the events occurred?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. As I understand you, you think that the entries concerning the time he was in Moscow before he went to Minsk were entered some time while he was in Minsk, is that right?

Mrs. OSWALD. I think so, but I don't know.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know why your husband was sent to Minsk to work and live after he came to the Soviet Union, instead of some other city?

Mrs. OSWALD. He was sent there because this is a young and developing city where there are many industrial enterprises which needed personnel. It is an old, a very old city. But after the war, it had been almost completely built anew, because everything has been destroyed. It was easier in the sense of living space in Minsk--it was easier to secure living space. Many immigrants are sent to Minsk. There are many immigrants there now.

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Mr. RANKIN. Were there many Americans there?

Mrs. OSWALD. Americans? No. But from South America, from Argentina, we knew many. Many Argentinians live there-- comparatively many.

Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband say much about the time he was in Moscow before he went to Minsk and what he did there?

Mrs. OSWALD. He didn't tell me particularly much about it, but he said that he walked in Moscow a great deal, that he had visited museums, that he liked Moscow better than Minsk, and that he would have liked to live in Moscow.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he say anything about having been on the radio or television at Moscow?

Mrs. OSWALD. He said that he was on the radio.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you anything about any ceremonies for him when he asked for Soviet citizenship?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. When he was not granted Soviet citizenship, did he say anything about the Soviet Government or his reaction towards their failure to give him citizenship?

Mrs. OSWALD. When I read the diary, I concluded from the diary that Lee wanted to become a citizen of the Soviet Union and that he had been refused, but after we were married we talked on that subject and he said it was good that he had refused to accept citizenship. Therefore, I had always thought that Lee had been offered citizenship--but that he didn't want it.

Mr. RANKIN. What diary are you referring to that you read?

Mrs. OSWALD. The diary about which we talked here previously--in the preceding session.

Mr. RANKIN. The one that was completed in Russia that you referred to?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. And when did you first read that?

Mrs. OSWALD. I had never read it, because I didn't understand English. But when I was questioned by the FBI, they read me excerpts from that diary.

Mr. RANKIN. And that was after the assassination?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. When you and Lee Oswald decided to get married, was there a period of time you had to wait before it could be official?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you file an application and then have a period to wait?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. How long was that period of waiting?

Mrs. OSWALD. Ten days.

Mr. RANKIN. After it was known in Minsk that you were to marry this American, did any officials come to you and talk to you about the marriage?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, we have Exhibits 66 through 91 that we are going to ask your counsel to show to you, and after you have looked at them and are satisfied that you can identify them, then we will ask you to comment on them.

Mrs. OSWALD. This is from Lee when I was in the hospital.

Mr. RANKIN. What exhibit is that?

Mr. THORNE. These are all part of Exhibit 66. They are various miscellaneous pieces of writing involved in this particular exhibit.

Mrs. OSWALD. It was not in June that I was in the hospital. He didn't know that I was in the hospital.

Mr. RANKIN. By "he" do you mean your husband Lee Oswald?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. And when did he not know that you were in the hospital?

Mrs. OSWALD. Because I was going to work when I began to feel ill, and I was taken to the hospital.

Mr. RANKIN. And what time was that?

Mrs. OSWALD. In the morning, about 10 a.m.

Mr. RANKIN. I mean about what day or month or year?

Mrs. OSWALD. September 1961.

Mr. RANKIN. Is that before you went to Kharkov?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

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Mr. RANKIN. And we have already discussed, or I have asked you about that time you were in the hospital.

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. I was there twice.

Mr. RANKIN. By twice, you mean this time you have described before you went to Kharkov and the other time when you had the baby?

Mrs. OSWALD. This is a letter from Iresse Yakhliel.

Mr. RANKIN. That is Exhibit 67?

Mr. THORNE. No, sir, these are all part of Exhibit 66.

Mr. DULLES. I wonder if these should not be marked in some way, because you won't be able to find out what they are in the future--A, B, C, D, or something of this kind.

Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Redlich, will you mark those as 66-A, B, C, and D, or however they run?

Mr. THORNE. When you say the first one marked "A", will you make it clear what that is?

Mr. THORNE. The exhibit marked "A"--let me hasten to point out that all of these pieces of paper have a mark "159R". We are denoting individually these papers by starting with A, B, C, and so on.

"A" represents the first piece of paper that was identified earlier in this testimony by Mrs. Oswald, referring again specifically to Exhibit 66, which is composed of many such pieces of paper.

Exhibit B was the second piece of paper that was identified by Mrs. Oswald. I believe this is the third.

Mrs. OSWALD. This is a letter from Inessa Yakhliel.

Mr. THORNE. This will be identified as C.

Mrs. OSWALD. The envelope of a letter that Lee wrote me, to Kharkov.

Mr. THORNE. That is identified as Exhibit D.

Mrs. OSWALD. From Inessa Yakhliel.

Mr. THORNE. This is identified as Exhibit E.

Mrs. OSWALD. This is from Inessa Yakhliel.

Mr. THORNE. This is identified as Exhibit F.

Mrs. OSWALD. This is from Lee.

Mr. THORNE. Identified as Exhibit G.

Mrs. OSWALD. From my Aunt Luba.

Mr. THORNE. This is identified as Exhibit H.

Mrs. OSWALD. This is a letter from Lee.

Mr. THORNE. Exhibit I.

Now, so there is no confusion, let's state again that these are sub-exhibits, letters, and marked 159, from A through I, all part of Exhibit 66.

Mrs. OSWALD. I would like to obtain these letters, to preserve them. I don't mean now.

The CHAIRMAN. She may see and have copies of any of the letters she desires connected with her testimony.

Mr. THORNE. This is Exhibit 67.

Mrs. OSWALD. A photograph of Galiya Khontooleva.

Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 68. Exhibit 68 is two postcards, and they probably need to be identified as A and B. Let's identify A.

Mrs. OSWALD. That is a letter from Lee from New Orleans to Irving--to the home of Mrs. Paine.

And this is a letter from the mother, Lee's mother.

Mr. THORNE. This will be identified as Exhibit 68-B. Exhibit 69 is composed of two postcards. Exhibit 69-A----

Mrs. OSWALD. This is from Lee, from New Orleans, addressed to me, when I lived with Ruth Paine.

Mr. THORNE. And Exhibit 69-B?

Mrs. OSWALD. A letter from a girl friend from Russia, Ludmila Larionova.

Mr. THORNE. Exhibit No. 70, a postcard.

Mrs. OSWALD. From my grandmother, from the mother of my stepfather.

Mr. THORNE. Exhibit No. 71. Two envelopes. 71-A----

Mrs. OSWALD. From Pavel Golovachev, addressed to the address of Ruth Paine. And this is an envelope from Ruth Paine.

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Mr. THORNE. That is Exhibit B.

Mrs. OSWALD. A letter to me.

Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 72 is a writing. In Russian.

Mrs. OSWALD. This is a reply to Lee's letter about the fact that he wanted to study at the University of Peoples Friendship, and he was refused.

Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 73 contains two pieces of paper. 73-A is identified as----

Mrs. OSWALD. This is from the time that June was a little baby, a certificate of the fact that she was vaccinated for smallpox.

Mr. THORNE. Exhibit B?

Mrs. OSWALD. This is Anna Meller's address and telephone number.

Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 74?

Mrs. OSWALD. This is Lee's library card of the State Library. I think in Moscow--the State Library.

Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 75 contains a writing and an envelope.

Mrs. OSWALD. A letter from Galiya Khontooleva, and an envelope.

Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 76 contains three pages of writing, together with an envelope.

Mrs. OSWALD. This was when Lee and I visited his brother in a city in Alabama, he is studying to be a clergyman. There we met a young man who was studying Russian, and he wrote me this letter. These are all his letters.

Mr. THORNE. This is three pages of one letter together with the envelope.

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 77 contains an envelope and two written pages--two separate pages of writing.

Mrs. OSWALD. This is from Galiya Khontooleva, and the envelope.

Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 78 contains an envelope and two handwritten pages of writing.

Mrs. OSWALD. This is a letter from Ruth Paine to New Orleans.

Mr. THORNE. Exhibit No. 79 contains an envelope and one page of writing.

Mrs. OSWALD. This is a letter from Pavel Golovachev, from Minsk.

Mr. THORNE. Exhibit No. 80, two handwritten pages.

Mrs. OSWALD. I was forced by the FBI to write an account of how much money I had received through them.

Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 81 contains one page of writing.

Mrs. OSWALD The same.

Mr. THORNE. By the same, you mean what?

Mrs. OSWALD. A receipt for the receipt of money through the FBI.

Mr. THORNE. Are these donations?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 82 contains a page in handwriting.

Mrs. OSWALD. A letter from Ruth.

Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 83 is a photograph.

Mrs. OSWALD. The son of Ludmila Larionova.

Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 84 contains an envelope.

Mrs. OSWALD. Simply an envelope.

Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 85 contains an envelope.

Mrs. OSWALD. Lee wrote to me in Kharkov.

Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 86 contains an envelope.

Mrs. OSWALD. From Titovetz, a letter from the Soviet Union.

Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 87 contains an envelope.

Mrs. OSWALD. From Pavel Golovachev.

Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 88 contains an envelope and one page of writing.

Mrs. OSWALD. A letter from Ella Soboleva.

Mr. THORNE. And the letter arrived in the envelope?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 89 contains one sheet of writing.

Mrs. OSWALD. Also from Soboleva.

Mr. THORNE. Exhibit No. 90.

Mrs. OSWALD. I think from Ruth.

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Mr. THORNE. This contains several pages--several sheets--three sheets which seem to be one continuous letter.

Mrs. OSWALD. A letter from Ruth Paine.

Mr. THORNS. A three-page letter. Exhibit No. 91 contains an envelope.

Mrs. OSWALD. From Erick Titovetz.

Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibits 66 through 91, inclusive.

The CHAIRMAN. You have looked over all these, have you, Mr. Thorne, and your client has identified them?

Mr. THORNE. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. They may be admitted.

(The documents referred to were marked Commission Exhibit Nos. 66 through 91, inclusive, and received in evidence.)

Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, we will show you photostatic copies of various writings of your husband. As you look at them, would you tell us what each one is, insofar as you recognize them, please?

Mr. THORNE. This is Exhibit 92, which is a writing, a photocopy of a writing.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recognize that exhibit, Mrs. Oswald?

Mrs. OSWALD. Lee's handwriting. But I have never seen this. More correctly, I have seen it, but I have never read it.

Mr. RANKIN. So you don't know what it purports to be, I take it.

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. That is, you do not?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. But you do recognize his handwriting throughout?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. THORNE. May I point out to the Commission, please, this is in English.

This is handwritten in English and it is typewritten in English.

Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibit 92.

The CHAIRMAN. It will be admitted.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 92, and received in evidence.)

Mr. RANKIN. I should like to inform the Commission that Exhibit 92 purports to be the book that Lee Oswald wrote about conditions in the Soviet Union.

The CHAIRMAN. The one that was dictated to the stenographer?

Mr. RANKIN. Yes, that is right.

Mr. REDLICH. He had had written notes, and she transcribed them.

Mr. THORNE. The next exhibit is Exhibit No. 93, many pages, handwritten, in English.

Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, will you tell us what that is, if you know.

Mrs. OSWALD. No, I don't know.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether it is in the handwriting of your husband?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, this is Lee's handwriting. These are all his papers. I don't know about them. Everything is in English. I don't know.

Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibit 93.

The CHAIRMAN. Exhibit 93 may be admitted.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 93, and received in evidence.)

Mr. RANKIN. I should like to advise the Commission that this Exhibit 93 purports to be a resume of his Marine Corps experience, and some additional minor notes.

Mr. THORNE. Exhibit No. 94 is photocopies of many pages of handwriting, which is in English.

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know what that is. It is Lee's handwriting.

Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibit 94.

The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 94, and received in evidence.)

Mr. DULLES. Do we know what that is?

Mr. RANKIN. Exhibit 94 consists of handwritten pages on which the book about Russia, Exhibit 92, was typewritten.

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Mr. THORNE. Exhibit No. 95 is a photocopy of many pages of typewriting, typewritten words, which are in English.

Mrs. OSWALD. I also don't know.

Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, I will ask you, on Exhibit 95, can you identify the handwriting on that?

Mrs. OSWALD. It is Lee's handwriting.

Mr. RANKIN. And did you ever see the pages of that Exhibit 95 as a part of his papers and records?

Mrs. OSWALD. No. Perhaps I saw them, but I don't remember them.

Mr. RANKIN. But you know it is his handwriting, where the handwriting appears?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibit 95.

The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 95, and received in evidence.)

Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 96 is a photocopy of two pages that are handwritten and in English.

Mrs. OSWALD. I also don't know what that is. For me, that is a dark forest, a heap of papers

Mr. RANKIN. With regard to Exhibit 95 that has been received in evidence, I should like to inform the Commission that that is also material concerning the book, regarding conditions in Russia.

Mrs. Oswald, will you tell us with regard to Exhibit 96---do you recognize the handwriting on those pages?

Mrs OSWALD. This is all Lee's handwriting.

Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibit 96.

The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 96, and received in evidence.)

Mr. RANKIN. Exhibit 96 purports to be notes for a speech or article, on "The New Era."

Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 97 is a photocopy of several pages, both printed and in writing, handwriting.

Mrs. OSWALD It is amazing that Lee had written so well.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recognize the handwriting?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I do.

Mr. THORNE. This is also in English.

Mrs. Oswald, you state he had written so well. By that you mean what?

Mrs. OSWALD. Neatly. And legibly.

Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 97.

The CHAIRMAN. Exhibit 97 may be admitted.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 97, and received in evidence.)

Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 98 is three photocopy pages of handwriting in English.

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know what that is.

Mr. THORNE. Do you recognize the handwriting?

Mrs. OSWALD. That is Lee's handwriting.

Mr. RANKIN. Exhibit 97 appears to be a critique on the Communist Party in the United States by Lee Oswald.

The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.

Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibit 98.

The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 98, and received in evidence.)

Mr. RANKIN. Exhibit 98 purports to be notes for a speech.

Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 99 is one photocopy page of handwriting in English.

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know what that is.

Mr. THORNE. Is this Lee's handwriting?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibit 99.

The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.

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(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 99, and received in evidence.)

Mr. THORNE. Exhibit No. 100 purports to be four pages, photocopy pages, of handwriting, in English.

Mrs. OSWALD. Lee's handwriting. But what it is, I don't know. I am sorry, but I don't know what it is

Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibit 100.

The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 100, and received in evidence.)

Mr. RANKIN. I wish to inform the Commission that this purports to be answers to questionnaires, and shows two formats, one showing that he is loyal to the country and another that he is not so loyal.

Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 101 is a photocopy of one page which is printed and handwritten in English.

Mrs. OSWALD. Lee's handwriting. But what it is, I don't know.

Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibit 101.

The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 101, and received in evidence.)

Mr. RANKIN. This purports to be a portion of the diary and relates to his meeting at the Embassy on October 31, 1959.

Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 102 is photocopies of two pages, handwritten, in English.

Mrs. OSWALD. Lee's handwriting. I don't know what it is.

Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibit 102.

The CHAIRMAN, It may be admitted.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 102, and received in evidence.)

Mr. RANKIN. I wish to call the Commission's attention to the fact that Exhibit 102 purports to be a draft of memoranda, at least, for a speech.

Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 103 is two pages, two photocopy pages, of handwriting, in English.

Mrs. OSWALD. From the address I see that it is a letter--it is Lee's letter, but to whom, I don't know.

Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 103.

The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted under that number.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 103, and received in evidence.)

Mr. RANKIN. I wish to call the attention of the Commission to the fact that Exhibit 103 is a purported draft of the letter that Lee Oswald sent to the Embassy, the Soviet Embassy, which you will recall referred to the fact that his wife was asked by the FBI to defect--had such language in the latter part of it. This draft shows that in this earlier draft he used different language, and decided upon the language that he finally sent in the exhibit that is in the record earlier. The comparison is most illuminating.

Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 104 is photocopy pages of a small notebook.

Mrs. OSWALD. This is my notebook, various addresses--when I was at the rest home, I simply noted down the addresses of some acquaintances.

Mr. DULLES. Is this in Russia, or the United States?

Mrs. OSWALD. In Russia.

Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibit 104.

The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 104, and received in evidence.)

Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 105 is a notebook----

Mr. RANKIN. Exhibit 104 purports to be a small notebook of Mrs. Oswald.

Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 105 is the original of a notebook containing various writings in English and in Russian

Mrs. OSWALD. This is when Lee was getting ready to go to Russia, and he made a list of the things that he wanted to buy and take with him.

Further, I don't know what he had written in there.

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Mr. DULLES. Was this the time he went or the time he didn't go?

Mrs. OSWALD. When he didn't--when he intended to.

Mr. RANKIN. In Exhibit 105, Mrs. Oswald, I will ask you if you noted that your husband had listed in that "Gun and case, Price 24 REC. 17."

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know what that is. Unfortunately, I cannot help. I don't know what this means.

Mr. RANKIN. But you do observe the item in the list in that booklet, do you?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. Now I see it.

Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 105.

The CHAIRMAN. That will be received.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 105, and received in evidence.)

Mr. RANKIN. With regard to Exhibit 102, I should like to inform the Commission that as a part of this transcribed record, as soon as we can complete it, we will have photostatic copies of these various exhibits for you, along with photographs of the physical material. But I think you will want to examine some of it very closely.

I call your particular attention to this draft of a proposed speech. One of the items, No. 1, states, "Americans are apt to scoff at the idea that a military coup in the U.S. as so often happens in Latin American countries, could ever replace our government. But that is an idea that has grounds for consideration. Which military organization has the potentialities of exciting such action? Is it the Army? With its many conscripts, its unwieldy size, its score of bases scattered across the world? The case of General Walker shows that the Army at least is not fertile enough ground for a far-right regime to go a very long way, for the size, reasons of size, and disposition."

Then there is an insert I have difficulty in reading.

"Which service, then, can qualify to launch a coup in the U.S.A.? Small size, a permanent hard core of officers and few bases as necessary. Only one outfit fits that description, and the U.S. Marine Corps is a rightwing-infiltrated organization of dire potential consequences to the freedom of the United States. I agree with former President Truman when he said that 'The Marine Corps should be abolished.'"

That indicates some of his thinking.

The CHAIRMAN. We will just take a short break.

(Brief recess.)

The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will be in order.

Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 106 for identification is a notebook.

Mrs. OSWALD. This is my book, some poems by----

Mr. THORNE. It contains handwriting in Russian.

Mr. RANKIN. How did you happen to write that, Mrs. Oswald?

Mrs. OSWALD. I simply liked these verses. I did not have a book of poems. And I made a copy.

Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 106.

The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 106, and received in evidence.)

Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 107 contains a small piece of cardboard with some writing in Russian on it.

Mrs. OSWALD. This is Lee's pass from the factory.

Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 107.

The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 107, and received in evidence.)

Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 108 is an original one sheet of paper, with handwriting in ink, in Russian, on one page.

Mrs. OSWALD. These are the lyrics of a popular song.

Mr. RANKIN. A Russian popular song?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. This is Armenian--an Armenian popular song.

Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 108.

The CHAIRMAN. It is admitted.

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(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 108, and received in evidence.)

Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 109 is one sheet with handwriting in ink on both sides, an original.

Mrs. OSWALD. This was simply my recollection 0£ some song lyrics and the names of some songs that people had asked me.

Mr. RANKIN. I offer Exhibit 109.

The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 109, and received in evidence.)

Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 110 is a yellow legal sized sheet with handwriting in Russian which seems to be interpreted in English below it, together with a little stamp. I can explain the stamp. It says FBI Laboratory.

Mrs. OSWALD. This is when George Bouhe was giving me lessons. I translated from Russian into English--not very successfully--my first lessons.

Mr. RANKIN. I offer Exhibit 110.

The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 110, and received in evidence.)

Mr. RANKIN. When was it that George Bouhe was teaching you English and you wrote this out?

Mrs. OSWALD. This was in July 1962. I don't remember when I arrived--in '62 or '61.

Mr. RANKIN. Is the handwriting in Exhibit 110 in the Russian as well as the English in your handwriting?

Mrs. OSWALD. No. The Russian is written by Bouhe, and the English is written by me.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you make the translation from the Russian into the English by yourself?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I had to study English.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you have a dictionary to work with?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. So you were taking a Russian-English dictionary and trying to convert the Russian words that he wrote out into English, is that right?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 111 is a book written in Russian, a pocket book.

Mrs. OSWALD. This is my book.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you notice some of the letters are cut out of that book, Exhibit 111?

Mrs. OSWALD. Letters?

I see that for the first time.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know who did that?

Mrs. OSWALD. Probably Lee was working, but I never saw that. I don't know what he did that for.

Mr. RANKIN. You never saw him while he was working with that?

Mrs. OSWALD. No. I would have shown him if 1 had seen him doing that to my book.

Mr. RANKIN. You know sometimes messages are made up by cutting out letters that way and putting them together to make words.

Mrs. OSWALD. I read about it.

Mr. RANKIN. You have never seen him do that?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. I offer Exhibit 111.

The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 111, and received in evidence.)

Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 112 is an apparent application--an applicant's driving record.

Mrs. OSWALD. I have never seen this.

Mr. THORNE. It is in English.

Mr. RANKIN. That is not your driving record, then?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

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Mr. RANKIN. You don't know whether it was your husband's?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know.

Mr. THORNE. May I clarify the exhibit? It is an application for a Texas driver's license. Standard form application.

Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibit 112.

The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 112, and received in evidence.)

Mrs. OSWALD. It is quite possible that Lee prepared that, because Ruth Paine insisted on Lee's obtaining a license.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you hear her insist?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. She said it would be good to have.

Mr. RANKIN. And when was that?

Mrs. OSWALD. October or November.

Mr. RANKIN. 1962?

Mrs. OSWALD. '63.

Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 113 is a driver's handbook published by the State of Texas.

Mrs. OSWALD. We had this book for quite some time. George Bouhe had given that to Lee if he at some time would try to learn how to drive.

Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 113.

The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 113, and received in evidence.)

Mr. RANKIN. Was your husband able to drive a car?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I think that he knew how. Ruth taught him how.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he have a driver's license that you know of?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

This is a Russian camera of Lee's--binoculars.

Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 114 is a leather case containing a pair of binoculars.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you remember having seen those binoculars, known as Exhibit 114, before?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. We had binoculars in Russia because we liked to look through them at a park.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether your husband used them in connection with the Walker incident?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know.

Mr. RANKIN. He never said anything about that?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibit 114.

The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.

(The article referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 114, and received in evidence.)

Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 115 is a box containing a stamping kit.

Mrs. OSWALD. That is Lee's. When he was busy with his Cuba, he used it.

Mr. RANKIN. You mean when he was working on the Fair Play for Cuba, he used this?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 115.

The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.

(The article referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 115, and received in evidence.)

Mr. RANKIN. How did he use that kit in Exhibit 115 in connection with his Fair Play for Cuba campaign?

Mrs. OSWALD. He had leaflets for which he assembled letters and printed his address.

Mr. RANKIN. And he used this kit largely to stamp the address on the letters?

Mrs. OSWALD. Not letters, but leaflets.

Mr. RANKIN. He stamped the address on the leaflets?

Mrs. OSWALD. Handbills, rather.

Yes.

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Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall whether he stamped his name on the handbills, too?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. What name did he stamp on them?

Mrs. OSWALD. Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he use the name Hidell on those, too?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember. Perhaps.

Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 116 is a Spanish to English and English to Spanish dictionary.

Mr. RANKIN. Have you seen that before?

Mrs. OSWALD. When Lee came from Mexico City I think he had this.

Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 116.

The CHAIRMAN. It may be received.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 116, and received in evidence.)

Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 117 is one sheet of paper with, some penciled markings on it.

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know what that is. I don't know.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recognize any of the writing on that exhibit?

Mrs. OSWALD. Lee's handwriting.

Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 117.

The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 117, and received in evidence.)

Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 118 is a clipping from a newspaper. There are some notations on it.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall seeing that clipping, Exhibit 118, before?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recognize any of the handwriting on it?

Mrs. OSWALD. As far as it is visible, it is similar to Lee's handwriting.

Mr. RANKIN. I offer Exhibit 118.

The CHAIRMAN. 118 may be admitted.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 118, and received in evidence.)

Mr. RANKIN. 118 has a reference to the President, with regard to the income tax, and the position of the Administration as being favorable to business rather than to the small taxpayer in the approach to the income tax.

Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 119 contains a key with a chain.

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know what this is a key to.

Mr. RANKIN. It appears to be a key to a padlock. Do you recognize it?

Mrs. OSWALD. I can see that it is a key to a padlock, but I have never used such a key.

Mr. RANKIN. Have you ever seen your husband use such a key?

Mrs. OSWALD. It is hard to remember what key he used. I know he had a key.

(The article referred to was marked as Commission Exhibit No. 119 for identification.)

Mr. THORNE. Exhibit. 120 purports to be a telescope 15 power telescope.

Mrs. OSWALD. I have never seen such a telescope.

Mr. RANKIN. You never saw it as a part of your husband's things?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

(The article referred to was marked for identification as Exhibit No. 120.)

Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 121 is a Russell Stover candy box filled with miscellaneous assortment--medicines of all kinds.

Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, can you help us in regard to that Exhibit 121? Are those your medicines or are those your husband's?

Mrs. OSWALD. These are all my medications.

(The article referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 121 and received in evidence.)

Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 122 is a cardboard box containing an assortment of items.

Mrs. OSWALD. These are all his things. I think he used this to clean the rifle.

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Mr. RANKIN. You are showing us pipe cleaners that you say your husband used to clean the rifle, as you remember

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. How often did he clean it, do you remember?

Mrs. OSWALD. Not too often. I have already told you.

Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 122.

The CHAIRMAN. It will be received.

(The article referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 122, and received in evidence.)

Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 123 contains seven small one ounce dark brown bottles.

Mrs. OSWALD. Lee's brother is a pharmacist. He gave this to us.

Mr. THORNE. As well as the apparent boxes that they came in.

Mr. RANKIN. Which brother is a pharmacist?

Mrs. OSWALD. Murret.

Mr. RANKIN. You mean his cousin?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. In the Russian the word cousin is second brother.

Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibit 123.

The CHAIRMAN. It may be received.

(The article referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 123, and received in evidence.)

Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 124 is a hunting knife in a sheath, approximately a 4- or 5-inch blade.

Mrs. OSWALD. I have never seen this knife.

It is a new knife. And that telescope is also new.

(The article referred to was marked as Commission Exhibit No. 124 for identification.)

Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 125 is a file cabinet for presumably three by five or five by seven inch cards.

Mrs. OSWALD. Lee kept his printing things in that, pencils.

Mr. RANKIN. The things that he printed his Fair Play for Cuba leaflets on?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Pencils and materials that he used in connection with that matter?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he have any index cards in that metal case?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, he had some.

Mr. RANKIN. You don't know what happened to them?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know what was on those index cards?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. A list of any people that you know of?

Mrs. OSWALD. No. I don't know.

Mr. RANKIN. Were those leaflets about Fair Play for Cuba printed?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. And then did he stamp something on them after he had them printed?

Mrs. OSWALD. He would print his name and address on them.

Mr. RANKIN. I will offer in evidence Exhibit 125.

The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.

(The article referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 125, and received in evidence.)

Mr. RANKIN. You don't know what happened to the cards that were in that?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 126 is a small hand overnight bag, canvas zipper bag.

Mrs. OSWALD. That is Lee's handbag, and he arrived with it from Mexico City.

Mr. RANKIN. It is one of the bags that you described when you were telling about his bringing one back from Mexico City?

Mrs. OSWALD. He only had this one.

Mr. RANKIN. Exhibit 126 was the only bag that he brought back?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibit 126.

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The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.

(The article referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 126, and received in evidence.)

Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 127 is a suitcase.

Mrs. OSWALD. A Russian suitcase.

Mr. RANKIN. You have seen that before, have you?

Mrs. OSWALD. Of course.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you how whether he took Exhibit 127 to Mexico?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. You don't know, or you don't think he did?

Mrs. OSWALD, I how that he did not take it.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know when he used Exhibit 127?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't think that he would have used it. Was this taken in Lee's apartment?

Mr. RANKIN. We cannot tell you that, Mrs. Oswald. We don't know which place it was taken from.

You have seen it amongst his things, though, have you not?

Mrs. OSWALD. No. I think these things were in Ruth Paine's garage.

Mr. RANKIN. You don't know whether it is his or Mrs. Paine's?

Mrs. OSWALD. That is my suitcase.

Mr. RANKIN. And did you use it to come from the Soviet Union?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes,

Mr. THORNE. This is not Lee's suitcase, then--this is your personal suitcase?

Mrs. OSWALD, Yes. Ours, or mine.

Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibit 127.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you need that? That is hers. She may want it. Do you think we need it?

Very well. It may be admitted.

(The article referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 127, and received in evidence.)

Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 128 is a Humble Oil and Refining Company courtesy map of the Dallas-Fort Worth area.

Mr. RANKIN. I call your attention, Mrs. Oswald, to the markings in ink, in the area where the assassination took place.

Mrs. OSWALD. This map Lee acquired after returning to Irving. Before that, he had another map.

That doesn't tell me anything. I did not use this map.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever see your husband use it?

Mrs. OSWALD. No. I think that this was in his apartment, where he lived. Perhaps he used it there.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever see him put those markings on it?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, I have never seen him use this specific map. Possibly he marked this place, not because of what happened there, but because this was the place where he worked, I don't know. He had a habit to note down the addresses of all acquaintances where he worked.

Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell whether the writing on the side of the map there is in your husband's handwriting?

Mrs. OSWALD. It doesn't look like his handwriting.

(The document referred to was marked for identification as Commission Exhibit No. 128.)

Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 129 purports to be some type of an official document in Russian.

Mrs. OSWALD. That is my birth certificate.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know why it was issued at that date, rather than presumably the one that was issued when you were born?

Mrs. OSWALD. Because mine was lost somewhere, and it was reissued.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you have to go there to get it?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, simply write a letter.

Mr. RANKIN. And they mailed it to you?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. I offer that exhibit in evidence.

The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.

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(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 129, and received in evidence.)

Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 130 seems to be an original instrument in Russian.

Mrs. OSWALD. This is a copy of a birth certificate which a notary issues.

Mr. THORNE. Whose certificate?

Mrs. OSWALD. Mine.

Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 130.

The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 130, and received in evidence.)

Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 131 is a one-sheet document in Russian.

Mrs. OSWALD. The same thing.

Mr. RANKIN. Why did you have these other copies?

Mrs. OSWALD. These documents were needed for regularizing all the documents in connection with the trip abroad.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know why the date was rewritten from July 14 to July 19 on them?

Mrs. OSWALD. In which?

Mr. RANKIN. In the original.

Mrs. OSWALD. I didn't see that.

It says July 17, 1941. The certificate is issued July 19, 1961.

Mr. KRIMER. The transcript shows 17th of July 1941. May I explain it, sir?

Mr. RANKIN. You explain it, Mr. Krimer, and then ask her if you are explaining it correctly.

Mr. KRIMER. I have explained it correctly, and she says it is correct.

This states she was born on July 17, but that an entry was made in the register about that on August 14, 1961. This accounts for the change in the digit. And this was issued on July 19, 1941.

Mr. RANKIN. I offer that in evidence.

The CHAIRMAN. That will be admitted.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 131, and received in evidence.)

Mr. THORNE. 132 is a two-sheet, eight-page letter with an envelope. This is written in Russian.

Mrs. OSWALD. The envelope is from Sobolev, and the letter is from Golovachev. I simply kept them together.

Mr. RANKIN. There is a reference in the last full paragraph of that letter, Mrs. Oswald, where it said, "By the way, Marina, try to explain to Paul that the basic idea of Pagodzin's play 'A man with a rifle' is contained in words"--and then goes on. Do you know what was meant by that? It says "Now we do not have to fear a man with a rifle." Who is Paul?

Mrs. OSWALD. This is only that the word "rifle" scares you, but it is quite harmless. This is Peter Gregory, Paul. He is also studying Russian. And he had to make a report at the institute about Pagodzin's play "Man with a Rifle". This play is about the revolution in Russia, and there is a film. I helped him with it.

Mr. RANKIN. You are satisfied that has nothing to do with the assassination?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 132.

The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 132, and received in evidence.)

Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 133 contains two photographs.

These are pictures of Lee Harvey Oswald with a rifle and pistol.

Mrs. OSWALD. For me at first they appeared to be one and the same, at first glance. But they are different poses.

Mr. RANKIN. You took both of those pictures, did you, in Exhibit 133?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. And are those the pictures you took when you were out hanging up diapers, and your husband asked you to take the pictures of him?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. With the pistol and the rifle?

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Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibit 133.

The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.

(The documents referred to were marked Commission Exhibit No. 133, and received in evidence.)

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall whether these pictures in Exhibit 133 were taken before or after the Walker incident?

Mrs. OSWALD. Before.

Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 134 is an enlargement of' one of these pictures--what purports to be an enlargement.

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, this is an enlargement of that photograph.

Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, in Exhibit 133, in one of the pictures your husband has a newspaper, it appears.

Mr. DULLES. I think in both of them.

Mr. RANKIN. I want to correct that.

In both he appears to have a newspaper. In one of them he has the newspaper in the right hand and in the other in the left hand. Do you know what newspaper that is?

Mrs. OSWALD. It says there "Militant." But I don't know what kind of a paper that is--whether it is Communist, anti- Communist.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall how much earlier than the Walker incident you took these photographs?

Mrs. OSWALD. About two weeks.

Mr. RANKIN. Was the enlargement of one of those pictures, Exhibit 134, made by you, or by someone else?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, I don't know who made the enlargement.

Mr. RANKIN. Have you seen Exhibit 134, the enlargement, before this?

Mrs. OSWALD. No. I have been shown an enlargement, but I don't know whether this is the one I have been shown.

Mr. RANKIN. Who showed that to you?

Mrs. OSWALD. Apart from Mr. Gopadze, somebody else showed me an enlargement.

Mr. RANKIN. Does this appear to be like the enlargement that you saw?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. I think it was specially enlarged for the investigation.

Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit No. 134.

The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 134, and received in evidence.)

Mr. THORNE. Exhibit No. 136 purports to be a clipping from a newspaper. It is a clipping of an advertisement, a mail coupon.

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know what that is.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recognize the handwriting on it?

Mrs. OSWALD. Lee's handwriting.

Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 135.

The CHAIRMAN. It will be admitted.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 135, and received in evidence.)

Mr. RANKIN. I call the Commission's attention to the fact that this is the coupon under which it appears the rifle was ordered, showing an enclosed $10 notation--"Check for $29.95, A. G. Hidell, age 28, post office box 2915, Dallas, Texas"

And it is marked, "One quantity. Point 38 ST. W. 2 inch barrel, 29.95." and underlined is 29.95, and an arrow at that point.

Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 136 is a camera contained within a leather case.

Mrs. OSWALD. This is a Russian camera.

Mr. RANKIN. Is that the camera you used to take the pictures you have referred to?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember exactly whether it was an American camera or this.

Mr. RANKIN. But this was one of your cameras, or your husband's cameras?

Mrs. OSWALD. My husband's camera.

Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 136.

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The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.

(The article referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 136, and received in evidence.)

Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 137 is a camera in a leather case.

Mr. RANKIN. Have you ever seen that camera before?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. DULLES. Is that a Russian camera?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

(The article referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 137 for identification.)

Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 138 is a flash attachment for some type of camera. It is an Ansco flash attachment.

Mrs. OSWALD. I have never seen it.

(The article referred to was marked Commission Exhibit' No. 138 for identification.)

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know what happened to the American camera that you referred to?

Mr. OSWALD. I don't know.

Mr. RANKIN. Was this Ansco flash equipment an attachment for that camera?

Mrs. OSWALD. I have never seen it. It seems to me that it is new.

Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 139.

Mrs. OSWALD. This is the fateful rifle of Lee Oswald.

Mr. RANKIN. Is that the scope that it had on it, as far as you know?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 139.

The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.

(The article referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 139, and received in evidence.)

Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 140 apparently is a blanket.

Mr. RANKIN. Have you seen that before, Mrs. Oswald?

Mrs. OSWALD. This is still from Russia. June loved to play with that blanket.

Mr. RANKIN. Was that the blanket that your husband used to cover up the rifle?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. We didn't use this blanket as a cover. He used it for the rifle.

Mr. RANKIN. And it was the blanket that you saw and thought was covering the rifle in the garage at the Paine's, is it?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he use it as a cover for the rifle at other places where you lived?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 140.

The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.

(The article referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 140, and received in evidence.)

Mr. RANKIN. Did you say that June played with this blanket, Exhibit 140?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. I would put that on the floor to make it softer--on a balcony, for example, when June was playing on it.

Mr. RANKIN. Is that in this country or in Russia?

Mrs. OSWALD. She didn't crawl yet in Russia.

Mr. RANKIN. What balcony was that what house?

Mrs. OSWALD. On Neely Street, in Dallas.

Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 141 is an envelope that contains a bullet.

Mr. RANKIN. Have you ever seen bullets or shells like that that your husband had?

Mrs. OSWALD. I think Lee's were smaller.

Mr. RANKIN. If that was the size for his gun, would that cause you to think it was the same?

Mrs. OSWALD Probably.

Mr. RANKIN. Where did you see his?

Mrs. OSWALD. In New Orleans, and on Neely Street.

Mr. RANKIN. In the box, or laying loose some place?

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Mrs. OSWALD. In a box.

Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 141.

The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.

(The article referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 141, and received in evidence.)

Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 142 is some kraft paper, brown wrapping paper.

Mrs. OSWALD. It wasn't brown before.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever see that before?

Mrs. OSWALD. The FBI questioned me about this paper, but I don't know--I have never seen it.

Mr. RANKIN. At one time it was kraft color, before they treated it to get fingerprints.

Did you ever see anything like that?

Mrs. OSWALD. Everybody sees such paper. But I didn't see that with Lee.

Mr. RANKIN. You have never seen anything like that around the house, then?

Mrs. OSWALD. No. We have wrapping paper around the house.

Mr. RANKIN. That Exhibit 142 is more than just wrapping paper. It was apparently made up into a sack or bag.

Mrs. OSWALD. I didn't see it.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever see him make up a bag or sack or anything like that, to hold a rifle?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

(The article referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 142, for identification.)

Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 143 is a pistol.

Mrs. OSWALD. Lee Oswald's.

Mr. RANKIN. You recognize that as a pistol of your husband?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 143.

The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.

(The article referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 143, and received in evidence.)

Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 144 is a leather pistol holster.

Mrs. OSWALD. That is a holster for Lee's pistol.

Mr. RANKIN. Is Exhibit 144 the same holster that is in those pictures that you took?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. And the pistol is the same pistol as in those pictures?

Mrs. OSWALD. As much as I can tell.

Mr. RANKIN. At least they appear to be, as far as you can tell?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. And the rifle is the same, or appears to be, is it not?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.

(The article referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 144, and received in evidence.)

Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 145 is a small cardboard box containing two bullets, .38 caliber.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recognize those as appearing to be the size of the bullets that your husband had for the pistol?

Mrs. OSWALD. It is hard for me to tell, because I don't understand about this. I never looked at them, because I am afraid.

Mr. RANKIN. But you have seen bullets like that, have you, in your husband's apartment or rooming house, or in the Neely apartment or at Mrs. Paine's?

Mrs. OSWALD. At Mrs. Paine's I never saw any shells.

On Neely Street, perhaps it is similar--New Orleans. It looks like it. If they fit Lee's pistol, then they must be the right ones.

Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 145.

The CHAIRMAN. Admitted.

(The article referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 145, and received in evidence.)

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The CHAIRMAN. We will take a short recess.

(Brief recess.)

The CHAIRMAN. We will be in order, please.

Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, would you step over with the interpreter to this desk and point out the different pieces of clothing as we ask you about it, please?

Do you know the shirt that Lee Oswald wore the morning that he left?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember. What else interests you? What do you want?

Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell us whether any of this clothing set out on this desk belonged to Lee Oswald?

Mrs. OSWALD. These are Lee's shoes.

Mr. RANKIN. When you say the shoes, you pointed to Exhibit 149?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. This is a pair of shoes of which Exhibit 149 is a photograph.

Mrs. OSWALD. These are his bath slippers.

Mr. RANKIN. Exhibit 148 are his bath slippers?

Mrs. OSWALD. Japanese bath slippers. These shoes I have never seen.

Mr. RANKIN. That is Exhibit 147, you say those are shoes you have never seen?

How about Exhibit 146?

Mrs. OSWALD. These are his, yes. These are all Lee's shirts.

Mr. RANKIN. Exhibits 150, 151----

Mrs. OSWALD. These are his pajamas.

Mr. RANKIN. Exhibits 150, and 151 are Lee Oswald's shirts, is that right?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. And Exhibit 152 is a pair of his pajamas?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. And Exhibit 153--you recognize that?

Mr. OSWALD. That is his shirt.

Mr. RANKIN. And Exhibit 154? Is that one of his shirts?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Exhibit 155?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, also. Why is it all torn?

Mr. RANKIN. We are advised it was when he was hurt, they cut into some of these.

Do you recall whether or not he was wearing Exhibit-the shirt that I point to now, the morning of the 22d of November-- Exhibit 150?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, it was a dark shirt.

Mr. RANKIN. You think that was the one?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. I call your attention to Exhibit 156. Is that a pair of his pants?

Mrs. OSWALD. These are his work pants.

Mr. RANKIN. And 157?

Mrs. OSWALD. Also work pants. These are all work pants.

Mr. RANKIN. 158?

Mrs. OSWALD. Why were both of those cut? I don't understand.

Mr. RANKIN. I have not been informed, but I will try to find out for you.

Mrs. OSWALD. It is not necessary.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall which of the pants he was wearing on the morning of November 22, 1963?

Mrs. OSWALD. I think the gray ones, but I am not sure, because it was dark in the room, and I paid no attention to what pants he put on.

Mr. RANKIN. By the gray ones, you are referring to what I point to as Exhibit 157, is that right?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell us about Exhibit 159, a sweater?

Mrs. OSWALD. That was my gift to Lee, a sweater.

Mr. RANKIN. 160?

Mrs. OSWALD. That is Lee's shirt.

Mr. RANKIN. 161?

Mrs. OSWALD. This is a pullover sweater. This is his pullover sweater.

Mr. RANKIN. 162?

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Mrs. OSWALD. That is Lee's--an old shirt.

Mr. RANKIN. Sort of a jacket?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. 163?

Mrs. OSWALD. Also.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall which one of the sweaters or jackets he was wearing on the morning of November 22, 1963?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember.

Mr. RANKIN. When was the last time that you saw this jacket, Exhibit 163?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you remember seeing it on the morning of November 22, 1963?

Mrs. OSWALD. The thing is that I saw Lee in the room, and I didn't see him getting dressed in the room. That is why it is difficult for me to say. But I told him to put on something warm on the way to work.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall whether the jacket, Exhibit 163, is something that he put on in your presence at any time that day?

Mrs. OSWALD. Not in my presence.

Mr. RANKIN. And you didn't observe it on him at any time, then?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Is it possible that Exhibit 163 was worn by him that morning without your knowing about it?

Mrs. OSWALD. Quite possible.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, at the time you saw him at the Dallas jail, can you tell us what clothing of any that are on this desk he was wearing at that time?

Mrs. OSWALD. None of these. He had on a white T-shirt. What trousers he was wearing, I could not tell, because I only saw him through a window.

Mr. RANKIN. Would you examine the collar on the shirt?

Mrs OSWALD. This is Lee's shirt.

Mr. RANKIN. It has a mark "Brent long tail sanforized."

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I know this shirt. I gave it to him. The sweater is also his.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall any of these clothes that your husband was wearing when he came home Thursday night, November 21, 1963?

Mrs. OSWALD. On Thursday I think he wore this shirt.

Mr. RANKIN. Is that Exhibit 150?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you remember anything else he was wearing at that time?

Mrs. OSWALD. It seems he had that jacket, also.

Mr. RANKIN. Exhibit 162?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. And the pants, Exhibit 157?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. But I am not sure. This is as much as I can remember.

Mr. RANKIN. Thank you.

Mr. THORNE. I identify this photograph, which is marked Exhibit 164 as being a true photograph of the shirt displayed to Mrs. Oswald, and recognized by her as being a shirt that she gave to Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. RANKIN. I offer all of the Exhibits, Nos. 146 to 164, inclusive.

The CHAIRMAN. They may be admitted.

(The articles referred to were marked Commission Exhibit Nos. 146 to 164, inclusive, and received in evidence.)

Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, do you remember any information or documents under your control or in your possession which would relate to or shed any light on the matters we have been examining which you have not presented here?

Mrs. OSWALD. I have nothing else. Everything has been taken from me.

Mr. RANKIN. Some of the Commissioners have a question or two, or a few questions. If you will permit them, they would like to address them to you. Representative Boggs. Mrs. Oswald, this question has already been asked you, but I would like to ask it again.

I gather that you have reached the conclusion in your own mind that your husband killed President Kennedy.

Mrs. OSWALD. Regretfully, yes.

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Representative BOGGS. During the weeks and months prior to the assassination--and I think this question has also been asked--did you ever at any time hear your late husband express any hostility towards President Kennedy?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Representative BOGGS. What motive would you ascribe to your husband in killing President Kennedy?

Mrs. OSWALD. As I saw the documents that were being read to me, I came to the conclusion that he wanted in any--by any means, good or bad, to get into history. But now that I have heard a part of the translation of some of the documents, I think that there was some political foundation to it, a foundation of which I am not aware.

Representative BOGGS. By that, do you mean that your husband acted in concert with someone else?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, only alone.

Representative BOGGS. You are convinced that his action was his action alone, that he was influenced by no one else?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I am convinced.

Representative BOGGS. Did you consider your husband a Communist?

Mrs. OSWALD. He told me when we were in New Orleans that he was a Communist, but I didn't believe him, because I said, "What kind of a Communist are you if you don't like the Communists in Russia?"

Representative BOGGS. Did he like the Communists in the United States?

Mrs. OSWALD. He considered them to be on a higher level and more conscious than the Communists in Russia.

Representative BOGGS. Did you consider your husband a normal man in the usual sense of the term?

Mrs. OSWALD. He was always a normal man, but where it concerned his ideas, and he did not introduce me to his ideas, I did not consider him normal.

Representative BOGGS. Maybe I used the wrong terminology. Did you consider him mentally sound?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; he was smart and capable. Only he did not use his capabilities in the proper direction. He was not deprived of reason--he was not a man deprived of reason.

Representative BOGGS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Cooper, did you have any questions to ask

Mrs. OSWALD. No one knows the truth, no one can read someone else's thoughts, as I could not read Lee's thoughts. But that is only my opinion. Senator Cooper. Mrs. Oswald, some of the questions that I ask you you may have answered--because I have been out at times.

I believe you have stated that your husband at times expressed opposition to or dislike of the United States or of its political or economic system, is that correct?

Mrs. OSWALD. As far as I know, he expressed more dissatisfaction with economic policy, because as to the political matters he did not enlighten me as to his political thoughts.

Senator COOPER. Did he ever suggest to you or to anyone in your presence that the economic system of the United States should be changed, and did he suggest any means for changing it?

Mrs. OSWALD. He never proposed that, but from his conversations it followed that it would be necessary to change it. But he didn't propose any methods.

Senator COOPER. Did he ever say to you or anyone in your presence that the system might be changed if officials were changed or authorities of our country were changed?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, he never said that to me.

Senator COOPER. Did he ever express to you any hostility towards any particular official of the United States?

Mrs. OSWALD. I know that he didn't like Walker, but I don't know whether you could call him an official.

Senator COOPER. May I ask if you ever heard anyone express to him hostility towards President Kennedy?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, never.

Senator COOPER. More specifically, I will ask--did you know Mr. Frazier?

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Representative BOGGS. Wesley Frazier.

Mrs. OSWALD. Oh, yes, that is the boy who took him to work.

Senator COOPER. You never heard him or anyone else express to your husband any hostility towards President Kennedy?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Senator COOPER. Mrs. Paine?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Senator COOPER. That is all I have.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Dulles, have you anything further you would like to ask?

Mr. DULLES. Mr. Chief Justice, I only have one question. Mr. Rankin has kindly asked several questions I had during the course of this hearing, these hearings the last 3 days.

Apart from trying to achieve a place in history, can you think of any other motive or anything that your husband felt he would achieve by the act of assassinating the President? That he was trying to accomplish something?

Mrs. OSWALD. It is hard for me to say what he wanted to accomplish, because I don't understand him.

The CHAIRMAN. Congressman Ford, did you have anything further?

Representative FORD. Mrs. Oswald after President Kennedy was assassinated, your husband was apprehended and later questioned by a number of authorities. In the questioning he denied that he kept a rifle at Mrs. Paine's home. He denied shooting President Kennedy. And he questioned the authenticity of the photographs that you took of him holding the rifle and the holster.

Now, despite these denials by your husband, you still believe Lee Oswald killed President Kennedy?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. Representative Ford. That is all.

Representative BOGGS. Mr. Chairman, just one or two other questions.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Representative BOGGS. Mrs. Oswald, when you lived in New Orleans with your husband, and he was active in this alleged Cuban committee, did you attend any meetings of any committees--was anyone else present?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, never.

Representative BOGGS. Were there any members of the committee other than your husband?

Mrs. OSWALD. There was no one. There was no one. There was no organization in New Orleans. Only Lee was there.

Representative BOGGS. One other question. Did he also dislike Russia when he was in Russia?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Representative BOGGS. Thank you.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, Mrs. Oswald, you have been a very cooperative witness. You have helped the Commission. We are grateful to you for doing this. We realize that this has been a hard ordeal for you to go through.

Mrs. OSWALD. It was difficult to speak all the truth.

The CHAIRMAN. We hope you know that the questions we have asked you have none of their have been from curiosity or to embarrass you, but only to report to the world what the truth is.

Now, after you leave here, you may have a copy of everything you have testified to. You may read it, and if there is anything that you think was not correctly recorded, or anything you would like to add to it, you may do so.

Mrs. OSWALD. I unfortunately--I cannot--since it will be in English.

The CHAIRMAN. Your lawyer may read it for you, and if he points out something to you that you think you should have changed, you may feel free to do that.

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, he will read it.

The CHAIRMAN. And if in the future we should like to ask you some more questions about something that develops through the investigation, would you be willing to come back and talk to us again?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. We hope it won't be necessary to disturb you. But if it is, you would be willing to come, would you not?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

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The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much.

Representative FORD. Mr. Chairman--I would just like to suggest that if Mrs. Oswald does wish to revise any of her testimony, that this be called to the attention of the Commission through her attorney, Mr. Thorne.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes, of course. That is the proper procedure. Now, Mr. Thorne, you have been very cooperative with the Commission. We appreciate that cooperation. We hope that if anything new should come to your attention that would be helpful to the Commission, you would feel free to communicate with us.

Mr. THORNE. Certainly, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you care to say anything at this time?

Mr. THORNE. Mr. Chairman, if I may, I would like to make a closing statement.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes. And may I say, also, if you have any questions you would like to ask Mrs. Oswald before you make your statement, you may do that.

Mr. THORNE. There are none.

Representative BOGGS. Mr. Chairman, I would just like to say Mr. Thorne has been very helpful.

Mr. THORNE. During the noon recess, Mrs. Oswald made four requests of me to make before this Commission.

You have anticipated several of them, but I think there are one or two that need to be covered.

To begin with, she wanted me to express to you, Mr. Chairman, and members of your Commission, her extreme gratitude to you for the consideration and kindness that has been shown to her in these proceedings. She feels you have certainly gone out of your way to make her comfortable, and she has been comfortable, in spite of the sad and tragic events we have been discussing.

Point No. 2, she did want to make it quite clear to the Commission that in the event her testimony was needed for rebuttal or whatever on down the line, she would be available, and at your wish would come to Washington as convenient for you when it was again convenient.

The third point you have already covered. She did request that she be given a copy of these proceedings, which I told her she would receive, and, of course, copies of the exhibits would be attached for her identification and examination.

Mrs. OSWALD. And copies of some of the letters?

Mr. THORNE. This will all be attached as exhibits.

And the final point was this. She has been, as you know, under protective custody of the Secret Service from shortly after the assassination. She has been most grateful for this protection. The Secret Service have shown her every courtesy, as everyone has in this matter. She is extremely grateful for this protection they have given her.

I haven't had personally enough time to think this thing out myself. I don't know. It is her request, however, that, at this point she feels the protection is no longer necessary. She feels that at this time she can walk among people with her head held high. She has nothing to hide. She is not afraid. She feels that the Secret Service has performed a noble service to her. And this is not meant by way of saying for some action 'on their part she wants to get rid of them.

I have noticed that since we have been in Washington she resents being guided. She feels she can find her way by herself.

And, if the Commission would give this matter consideration--we don't know whom to go to. I haven't thought about it. I don't know who has suggested the Secret Service continue protecting her. It is a matter, of course, that ought to be considered.

But it is her request that as soon as it is practical, she would like to be a free agent and out of the confines of this protection.

I point out to you gentlemen that she is living, as you well know, with Mr. and Mrs. Martin. They have a rather modest home. Three bedrooms. It has a den and it has a combination living and dining room. The house is not extremely large, but there are always two men in the house. This does burden the family. This is not a request on the part of the Martins. They welcome this protection. This is something she thinks in terms of herself that she does not want to feel that she is being held back.

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Is that correct?

Mrs. OSWALD. What I wanted to say, Mr. Thorne has said.

Mr. THORNE. For my own part, gentlemen, thank you.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Thorne, we can understand Mrs. Oswald's desire to live a perfectly normal life with her children. Whatever has been done, as you recognize, has been done for her protection, and for her help during these terrible days that she has been going through.

But she may feel from this moment on that she is under no protection, except what she might ask for. And so you are perfectly free, Mrs. Oswald, to live your normal life without any interference from anyone. And should anyone interfere with you, I hope you would call it to the attention of the Commission.

Mrs. OSWALD. Thank you very much.

Mr. THORNE. Mr. Chairman, may I add one point, please?

For our purposes, I would appreciate it if this matter of removal, assuming that it is to be removed shortly, is kept secret, also.

I would prefer generally for the public to feel that--at least temporarily--that this protection is available. I don't feel any qualms myself. I don't feel there are any problems. But I think the matter of Mrs. Marguerite Oswald has come up. There may be some problem from some sources.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Thorne, I think the correct answer to that would be and it would be the answer we would give that Mrs. Oswald, in the future, will be given such assistance and only such assistance as she asks for.

Mr. THORNE. Thank you very much, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. I want to say also before the session adjourns that we are indebted to Mr. Krimer for the manner in which he has interpreted. Next to the witness, I am sure he has had the hardest position in this whole hearing. And we appreciate the manner in which he has done it.

Mr. KRIMER. Thank you very much, sir.

Mrs. OSWALD. He is a very good interpreter.

The CHAIRMAN. Very well. If there is nothing further to come before the session, we will adjourn.

Mrs. OSWALD. I am very grateful to all of you. I didn't think among Americans I would find so many friends.

The CHAIRMAN. You have friends here.

Mrs. OSWALD. Thank you.

(Whereupon, at 5:50 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)

Volume V page 387-408

TESTIMONY OF MRS. LEE HARVEY OSWALD RESUMED

The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will be in order. Shall we reswear Mrs. Oswald?

Mr. RANKIN. I would think her former swearing would be sufficient, Mr. Chief Justice.

The CHAIRMAN. Very well. You consider yourself under oath, do you, Mrs. Oswald?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, we would like to have you tell about the incident in regard to Mr. Nixon that you have told about since we had your last examination. Could you tell us what you know about that incident, first, when it happened insofar as you can recall?

Mrs. OSWALD. I am very sorry I didn't mention this before. I prefer that you ask me the questions and that will help me to remember what there is.

Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell us what Mr. Nixon it is, was it Richard Nixon, the former Vice President of the United States that you were referring to?

Mrs. OSWALD. I only know one Nixon and I think it was Richard Nixon which it was all about.

Mr. RANKIN. Can you fix the date when this occurrence did happen? Approximately?

Mrs. OSWALD. It was a weekend before he went to New Orleans and after the Walker business I think. But I might be mistaken as to whether or not this was a weekend because I am basing this on the fact that my husband was home and he wasn't-- wasn't always employed and he was at home weekdays as well sometimes, so I can't be entirely sure that it was a weekend.

Mr. RANKIN. Can you place the place of the various homes you had that this happened?

Mrs. OSWALD. Neely Street.

Mr. RANKIN. At the Neely Street house. Do you know what time of day it occurred?

Mrs. OSWALD. This was in the morning.

Mr. RANKIN. Who was there?

Mrs. OSWALD. Just my husband and me.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, will you describe in detail just what happened. Mrs. Oswald, when you are answering the questions will you try to break up your answers, and let the interpreter try to translate; I think it will be helpful in not having the interpreter have to try to remember everything of a long answer. Do you understand me?

Mr. DULLES. May I suggest also, Mr. Rankin, that I think it would be preferable that the record be in the first person, that is, the interpreter translate just as she said it.

I was looking over the earlier record and that is the way it was over the earlier record and it went quite well.

Mrs. OSWALD. It was early in the morning and my husband went out to get a newspaper, then he came in and sat reading the newspaper. I didn't pay any attention to him because I was occupied with the housework.

Then he got dressed and put on a good suit. I saw that he took a pistol.

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I asked him where he was going, and why he was getting dressed. He answered, "Nixon is coming. I want to go and have a look." I said, "I know how you look," or rather, "I know how you customarily look, how you customarily take a look," because I saw he was taking the pistol with him rather than I know how you look in the sense that you are dressed, how you look at things is what I mean.

Mr. RANKIN. Had it come to your attention, Mrs. Oswald, that Mr. Nixon was going to be in Dallas prior to that time?

Mrs. OSWALD. No; it did not.

Mr. RANKIN. Had you seen anything in the newspapers or heard anything over the radio or television?

Mrs. OSWALD. No; we didn't have TV. I didn't see this in the newspaper.

Mr. DULLES. Do you know what newspaper it was in which your husband read this report?

Mrs. OSWALD. No; Dallas Morning News maybe. It was a morning paper.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether there was any information at all in the papers about Mr. Nixon planning to come to Dallas about that time?

Mrs. OSWALD. I didn't ever read the newspaper and I did not know; therefore, didn't know whether there was any information in the newspapers prior to this time about Vice President Nixon's arrival in Dallas.

Representative FORD. Could we establish the date more precisely, either by the newspapers or by testimony from Mrs. Oswald?

(At this point, the Chief Justice left the hearing room.)

Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, can you help us by telling how many days it was before you went to New Orleans that this incident occurred?

Mrs. OSWALD. What day did I go to New Orleans?

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall that your husband went to New Orleans on April 24?

Mrs. OSWALD. April 24? My husband?

Mr. RANKIN. Yes; and you went at a later date with Mrs. Paine, do you remember that?

Mrs. OSWALD. I remember it was about 2 weeks before.

Mr. RANKIN. Two weeks before April 24?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; but when was the incident with Walker?

Mr. RANKIN. April 10 was the Walker incident. Does that help you?

Mrs. OSWALD. This is a short distance, you know, I think maybe ----

Mr. RANKIN. So you think it had to be sometime between April 10 and April 24?

Mrs. OSWALD. This may be 10 days or more. I think it was closer to the time when my husband left for New Orleans than it was to the incident of General Walker. I think it was less than a week before my husband left for New Orleans. I did not think up this incident with Nixon myself.

Mr. RANKIN. What do you mean by that, Mrs. Oswald?

Mrs. OSWALD. I had forgotten entirely about the incident with Vice President Nixon when I was here the first time. When you asked me the questions about it, then I remembered it. I wasn't trying to deceive you the first time.

Mr. RANKIN. What did your husband say that day about Richard Nixon, when he got this gun and dressed up. Did he tell you anything about him?

Mrs. OSWALD. No; I just didn't know what to do, you know.

Mr. RANKIN. How did you know he was interested in doing something about Mr. Nixon at that time?

Mrs. OSWALD. My husband just said that Nixon is coming to Dallas.

Mr. RANKIN. Then what did you do?

Mrs. OSWALD. First I didn't know what to do. I wanted to prevent him from going out.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you say anything to him?

Mrs. OSWALD. I called him into the bathroom and I closed the door and I wanted to prevent him and then I started to cry. And I told him that he shouldn't do this, that he had promised me.

Mr. RANKIN. Are you referring to his promise to you that you described in your prior testimony after the Walker incident?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; that was the promise.

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Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall the bathroom, how the door closes? Does it close into the bathroom on Neely Street or from the outside in?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember now. I don't remember. I only remember that it was something to do with the bathroom.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you lock him into the bathroom?

Mrs. OSWALD. I can't remember precisely.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall how the locks were on the bathroom door there?

Mrs. OSWALD. I can't recall. We had several apartments and I might be confusing one apartment with the other.

Mr. RANKIN. Is it your testimony that you made it impossible for him to get out if he wanted to?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember.

Representative FORD. Did he try to get out of the bathroom?

Mrs. OSWALD. I remember that I held him. We actually struggled for several minutes and then he quieted down. I remember that I told him that if he goes out it would be better for him to kill me than to go out.

Mr. DULLES. He is quite a big man and you are a small woman.

Mrs. OSWALD. No; he is not a big man. He is not strong.

Mr. DULLES. Well, he was 5 feet 9, and you are how tall?

Mrs. OSWALD. When he is very upset, my husband is very upset he is not strong and when I want to and when I collect all my forces and want to do something very badly I am stronger than he is.

Mr. DULLES. You meant mentally or physically?

Mrs. OSWALD. I am not strong but, you know, there is a certain balance of forces between us.

Mr. DULLES. Do you think it was persuasion, your persuasion of him or the physical force or both that prevented him from going?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't think it was physically, physical prevention because if he--I couldn't keep him from going out if he really wanted to. It might have been that he was just trying to test me. He was the kind of person who could try and wound somebody in that way. Possibly he didn't want to go out at all but was just doing this all as a sort of joke, not really as a joke but rather to simply wound me, to make me feel bad.

Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Rankin, if I may interpose here for a moment. Mrs. Oswald has been interrogated at length by the FBI in connection with this particular incident--the Nixon incident. I feel confident that the FBI has made a written report insofar as her testimony is concerned in their interrogation, but for purposes of the record I have no objection whatsoever for the FBI report to be included in the record as part of the record.

Mr. RANKIN. Thank you, Mr. McKenzie. We will incorporate those reports as a part of the record in regard to this incident, if that is agreeable to the Commission.

Mr. McKENZIE. The reason I say that is because of the fact that those interrogations were conducted at an earlier date and closer to the actual incident, the state of time, closer to the actual incidents than her interrogation here today, and insofar as dates are concerned I think that her mind would be clearer on those dates, and I likewise know that at that time a Russian interpreter was there.

Mr. RANKIN. Mr. McKenzie, I think with the members of the Commission here that I want to ask a number of questions about this incident because of its importance so they can observe the witness as well as have the benefit of her testimony.

Mr. MCKENZIE. Mr. Rankin, in no way am I suggesting otherwise but if it would help the Commission in evaluating her testimony and evaluating the evidence that it has had heretofore in prior testimony we have no objection to those reports being a part of the record in any way.

Mr. RANKIN. Thank you.

Mrs. OSWALD. I might be mistaken about some of the details of this incident but it is very definite he got dressed, took a gun, and then didn't go out. The reason why there might be some confusion in my mind about the details because it happened in other apartments in which we lived that we quarreled and then I would shut him in the bathroom, and in this particular case it may not have

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happened quite that way but there is no doubt that he got dressed and had a gun.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you remember what you said to him and what he said to you at that time?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember now but I told the FBI precisely.

Mr. RANKIN. And were your reports to the FBI in regard to this incident accurate, truthful, and correct?

Mrs. OSWALD. They were correct as far as I could remember. The only detail as far as my memory served me--the only detail which might be confused is the one with the bathroom.

Mr. RANKIN. Had your husband said anything before or did he say anything at that time in regard to Mr. Nixon showing any hostility, friendship, or anything else?

Mrs. OSWALD. Showing any hostility or friendship toward Mr. Nixon?

Mr. RANKIN. Yes; toward Nixon.

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember him saying anything--I don't remember but he didn't tell me. I don't remember him saying anything of that sort. I only remember the next day he told me that Nixon did not come. Excuse me.

Mr. RANKIN. Yes.

Mrs. OSWALD. The FBI suggested that possibly I was confused between Johnson and Nixon but there is no question that in this incident it was a question of Mr. Nixon. I remember distinctly the name Nixon because I read from the presidential elections that there was a choice between President Kennedy and Mr. Nixon.

Representative FORD. Where did your husband get the pistol that morning; do you remember?

Mrs. OSWALD. What, where?

Representative FORD. Where.

Mrs. OSWALD. My husband had a small room where he kept all that sort of thing. It is a little larger than a closet.

Representative FORD. Did you see him go in and get the pistol?

Mrs. OSWALD. I didn't see him go into the room. I only saw him standing before the open door and putting the pistol in his pocket.

Representative FORD. Do you recall which pocket he put the pistol in?

Mrs. OSWALD. It was not in a pocket. He put it in his belt.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. DULLES. Had you and your husband ever discussed Mr. Nixon at a previous, at any previous time?

Mrs. OSWALD. No. No.

Mr. RANKIN. What else happened about this incident beyond what you have told us?

Mrs. OSWALD. He took off his suit and stayed home all day reading a book. He gave me the pistol and I hid it under the mattress.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you say anything more than you have told us to him about this matter at that time?

Mrs. OSWALD. I closed the front door to the building that day and when we were quarreling about--when we were struggling over the question of whether or not he should go out I said a great deal to him.

Mr. RANKIN. What did you say to him then?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember.

Mr. RANKIN. Just tell us in substance?

Mrs. OSWALD. I really don't remember now. I only remember that I told him that I am sorry of all these pranks of his and especially after the one with General Walker, and he had promised me, I told him that he had promised me----

Mr. RANKIN. Did he say anything in answer to that?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember.

Mr. DULLES. As I recall, in your previous testimony there was some indication that you had said that if he did the Walker type of thing again you would notify the authorities. Did that conversation come up at this time with your husband?

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Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; I said that. But he didn't go at that time and after all he was my husband.

Mr. DULLES. Does--do you mean you said it again at the time of the Nixon incident?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; I told him that but you must understand that I don't speak English very well, and for that reason I used to keep a piece of paper with me, and I had it, you know, what piece of paper I am talking about. At that time I didn't know how to go in police station; I don't know where it was.

Mr. McKENZIE. Was that the passport?

Mrs. OSWALD. No. After the incident with Walker----

Mr. RANKIN. Was that paper the Walker incident note that you have described in your testimony?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Representative FORD. When you put the pistol under the mattress, what happened to the pistol from then on?

Mrs. OSWALD. That evening he asked for it and said that nothing was going to happen, and that he said he wouldn't do anything and took the pistol back. And put it into his room.

Mr. DULLES. Did you keep the, what you call, the Walker note with you all the time or did you have it in a particular place where you could go and get it and show it to him?

Mrs. OSWALD. I had it all the time. I kept it in a certain place initially and then I put it in the pages of a book.

Senator COOPER. Mr. Rankin, would you ask the witness to state again what Lee Oswald's promise was to her that he had made at the time of the Walker incident?

Mr. RANKIN. Will you relate the promise that your husband made to you right after the discovery of the Walker incident by you?

Mrs. OSWALD. This wasn't a written promise.

Mr. RANKIN. No.

Mrs. OSWALD. But in words it was more or less that I told him that he was very lucky that he hadn't killed--it was very good that he hadn't killed General Walker. I said it was fate that--it was fated that General Walker not be killed and therefore he shouldn't try such a thing again.

Mr. RANKIN. What did he say in answer to that?

Mrs. OSWALD. He said perhaps I am right. I myself didn't believe what I was saying because I didn't believe that he was fated. I was just trying to find some way of dissuading my husband to do such a thing again. Do you understand what I mean?

Mr. RANKIN. Yes. Did he say that he would or would not do that again, that is what I want to know.

Mrs. OSWALD. At the time I did definitely convince him that I was right, and at the time he said that he would not do such a thing again.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, when you talked to him about the Nixon incident and persuaded him not to go out and do anything to Mr. Nixon, did you say anything about your pregnancy in trying to persuade him?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. What did you say about that?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; I told him that I was pregnant.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you observe his action at the time of this Nixon incident, how he acted?

Mrs. OSWALD. How he reacted to this?

Mr. RANKIN. How he reacted to your interfering with him.

Mrs. OSWALD. At first he was extremely angry, and he said, "You are always getting in my way." But then rather quickly he gave in, which was rather unusual for him. At the time I didn't give this any thought, but now I think it was just rather a kind of nasty joke he was playing with me. Sometimes Lee was--he had a sadistic--my husband had a sadistic streak in him and he got pleasure out of harming people, and out of harming me, not physically but emotionally and mentally.

Mr. RANKIN. Have you told us substantially all that happened about this Nixon incident?

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Mrs. OSWALD. That is all I can remember.

Representative FORD. Can you tell us why you didn't mention this incident to the Commission when you appeared before?

Mrs. OSWALD. There were an awful lot of questions at that time, and I was very tired and felt that I had told everything and I don't remember, I can't understand why I didn't mention this. It would have been better for me to mention it the first time than to make you all do more work on it.

Mr. DULLES. At the time of this incident did you threaten to go to the authorities in case your husband did not desist in his intention?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; I said that.

Senator COOPER. I may have to go---could I ask a few questions? Mrs. Oswald, will you repeat at what your husband said that morning when he dressed and got the pistol?

Mrs. OSWALD. I asked him where he was going and why he was getting dressed. He answered, "Today Nixon is coming and I want to go out and have a look at him."

I answered, "I know how you look," and I had in mind the fact that he was taking a pistol with him.

Senator COOPER. Did he say anything about what he intended to do with the pistol?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Senator COOPER. Did you ask him if he intended to use the pistol against Mr. Nixon?

Mrs. OSWALD. I told him that, "You have already promised me not to play any more with that thing." Not really play, but, you know--I didn't mean, of course, just playing but using the pistol. Then he said, "I am going to go out and find out if there will be an appropriate opportunity and if there is I will use the pistol." I just remembered this and maybe I didn't say this in my first testimony and now it just has occurred to me that he said this.

Senator COOPER. Did your husband say why he wanted to use the pistol against Mr. Nixon?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Senator COOPER. Did he say where he intended to see Mr. Nixon?

Mrs. OSWALD. He didn't say. He just said in Dallas, and since Nixon was coming to Dallas.

Senator COOPER. When he was talking to you about seeing Mr. Nixon and using the pistol, what was his attitude? Was he angry or----

Mrs. OSWALD. He wasn't angry. He looked more preoccupied and had sort of a concentrated look.

Senator COOPER. Now, from the beginning, from the time that he first told you that he was going to use the pistol, until the time that you say he became quieted, did he again make any statement about using the pistol against Mr. Nixon?

Mrs. OSWALD. I told him that I didn't want him to use his gun any more. He said, "I will go out and have a look and perhaps I won't use my gun, but if there is a convenient opportunity perhaps I will." Strike "perhaps" please from that last sentence. I didn't have a lot of time to think of what we were actually saying. All I was trying to do was to prevent him from going out.

Senator COOPER. How much time elapsed, if you can remember, from the time he first told you that he was going out and when he finally became pacified?

Mrs. OSWALD. This was maybe 30 minutes. The whole incident took maybe 20 minutes. It was about 10 minutes I took- -15 minutes maybe. 15 minutes, it took maybe 10 minutes for him to be prepared to go out and then the incident in the bathroom took maybe 5 minutes until he quieted down. It doesn't mean I held him in the bathroom for 5 minutes because I couldn't do that but the general discussion in the bathroom.

Senator COOPER. You said he stayed at the house the remainder of the day During the remainder of the day did you discuss again with him the incident?

Mrs. OSWALD. No; no.

Senator COOPER. Did he say anything more that day?

Mrs. OSWALD. No. He read a book.

Mr. DULLES. Do you know what book it was, by chance?

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Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember. It was some kind of book from the public library. He had a two-volume history of the United States. This is not from the library, this was his own book.

Mr. DULLES. The incident occurred, you said, just a few days after he had told you he shot at General Walker?

Mrs. OSWALD. It was about 10 or 12 days after the incident with General Walker, perhaps about 3 days before we left for the departure for New Orleans. This didn't happen right after the incident with General Walker. It happened rather closer to a time when we departed for New Orleans.

Mr. DULLES. The General Walker incident made a very strong impression on you, didn't it?

Mrs. OSWALD. Of course. I never thought that Lee had a gun in order to use it to shoot at somebody with.

Mr. DULLES. Didn't this statement that he made about Vice President Nixon make a strong impression on you also?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know. I was pregnant at the time. I had a lot of other things to worry about. I was getting pretty well tired of all of these escapades of his.

Mr. DULLES. Was there any reason why you didn't tell the Commission about this when you testified before?

Mrs. OSWALD. I had no--there is no particular reason. I just forgot. Very likely this incident didn't make a very great impression on me at that time.

Mr. DULLES. Now, before the death of President Kennedy, of course, you knew that your husband had purchased a rifle?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. You knew that he had purchased a pistol?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. And a knife?

Mrs. OSWALD. No; what kind of knife?

Mr. DULLES. Did he have a knife?

Mrs. OSWALD. He had a little pocket knife; I think.

Mr. DULLES. You knew that he had told you that he had tried to kill General Walker?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. And, of course, as you said you heard him make a threat against Nixon.

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. Did you have some fear that he would use these weapons against someone else?

Mrs. OSWALD. Of course; I was afraid.

Mr. DULLES. What?

Mrs. OSWALD. Of course; I was afraid.

Mr. DULLES. You thought that he might use his weapons against someone?

Mrs. OSWALD. After the incident with Nixon I stopped believing him.

Mr. DULLES. You what?

Mrs. OSWALD. I stopped believing him.

Mr. DULLES. Why?

Mrs. OSWALD. Because he wasn't obeying me any longer, because he promised and then he broke his promise.

Mr. DULLES. Would you repeat that?

Mrs. OSWALD. Because he wasn't obeying me any more. He promised and, he made a promise and then he broke it.

Mr. DULLES. That is my question. Having been told that--isn't it correct he told you that he shot at General Walker? He made a promise to you that he wouldn't do anything like that again, you heard him threaten Vice President Nixon, didn't it occur to you then that there was danger that he would use these weapons against someone else in the future?

Mrs. OSWALD. After the incident with Walker, I believed him when he told me that he wouldn't use the weapons any longer.

Mr. DULLES. I remember you testified before and I asked you if you had heard him threaten any official or other person and your answer was no.

Mrs. OSWALD. Because I forgot at that time about the incident with Nixon.

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Mr. DULLES. I want to ask you again: In view of the fact that you knew in view of the fact that he had threatened Walker by shooting at him, and he threatened Vice President Nixon can you not tell this Commission whether after that he threatened to hurt, harm any other person?

Mrs. OSWALD. Nobody else. Perhaps I should be punished for not having said anything about all this, but I was just a wife and I was trying to keep the family together, at that time. I mean to say. I am talking, of course, of time before President Kennedy's death. And if I forget to say anything now, I am not doing it on purpose.

Mr. DULLES. I am just asking questions. Will you say here that he never did make any statement against President Kennedy?

Mrs. OSWALD. Never.

Mr. DULLES. Did he ever make any statement about him of any kind?

Mrs. OSWALD. He used to read and translate articles from the newspaper about Kennedy to me and from magazines, favorable articles about Kennedy. He never commented on them and he never discussed them in any way but because of his translations and his reading to me he always had a favorable feeling about President Kennedy because he always read these favorably inclined articles to me. He never said that these articles never were true, that he was a bad President or anything like that.

Mr. DULLES. I didn't catch the last.

Mrs. OSWALD. He never said these articles were not true or that President Kennedy was a bad President or anything like that.

Senator COOPER. I think you testified before that he made statements showing his dislike of our system of government and its economic system.

Mrs. OSWALD. He used to complain about the educational difficulties and about the unemployment in the United States and about the high cost of medical care.

Mr. McKENZIE. Right there, please, may I, Mr. Dulles when did he complain of those things, was this in Russia or was it in the United States after you returned from Russia?

Mrs. OSWALD. After our return from Russia. When we were living in New Orleans after returning from Russia.

Mr. McKENZIE. Did he likewise make such complaints about the American system while you were living in Russia after you were married?

Mrs. OSWALD. He used to tell me that it was difficult to find a job and to get work in the United States but nonetheless we would be better there than we were in Russia. Excuse me. He was the kind of person who was never able to get along anywhere he was and when he was in Russia he used to say good things about the United States and when he was in the United States he used to talk well about Russia.

Senator COOPER. You knew, of course, because of the incidents in New Orleans that he did not like American policy respecting Cuba.

Mrs. OSWALD. He was definitely a supporter of Cuba. This was something which remained with him from Russia.

Senator COOPER. Did he ever say to you who was responsible or who had some responsibility for our policy toward Cuba?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Senator COOPER. Had he ever mentioned President Kennedy in connection with our Cuban policy?

Mrs. OSWALD. Never to me.

Mr. DULLES. Did he ever say anything----

Mrs. OSWALD. He might have discussed this with Paine.

Senator COOPER. With who?

Mrs. OSWALD. Mr. Paine, husband of Ruth Paine.

Senator COOPER. He might have done what now?

Mrs. OSWALD. With the husband of Ruth Paine.

Senator COOPER. Why do you say that, did you ever hear him talking about it?

Mrs. OSWALD. He used to talk politics with Mr. Paine. I don't know what they were talking about because at that time I didn't understand English.

Senator COOPER. Did you mean, though, to say that you believed he might have discussed the Cuban policy with Mr. Paine.

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; especially after we returned from New Orleans.

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Senator COOPER. Why? Why do you make that statement?

Mrs. OSWALD. Because we only saw Mr. Paine once or twice before we went to New Orleans. And there was more opportunity to see Mr. Paine after we came back.

Senator COOPER. But my question is what makes you think he might have talked to Mr. Paine about Cuba?

Mrs. OSWALD. I think, sir; because after returning from New Orleans this was his favorite subject, Cuba, and he was quite--a little bit cracked about it, crazy about Cuba.

Senator COOPER. You mean he talked to you a great deal about it after you came from New Orleans?

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, in New Orleans he used to talk to me endlessly about Cuba, but after we came back he didn't talk to me about it any longer because I was just sick and tired of this.

Mr. DULLES. "He" in this case is your husband?

Mrs. OSWALD. That is right. I really don't know about what he talked with Mr. Paine. I think that they were talking about politics, that is to say my husband with Mr. Paine because my husband used to tell me afterwards, "Well, he doesn't understand anything about politics." "He is not too strong on politics."

And, therefore, I think they were probably talking with the American political system and the Russian political system and comparisons between them I think that Mr. Paine could probably tell you more about this than I can.

Senator COOPER. That is all I want to ask for the time being.

Mrs. OSWALD. I think that Mr. Paine knows more about my husband's political attitudes toward the United States than I do.

Mr. RANKIN. You said the FBI asked you whether you could have been mistaken about it being Mr. Nixon that your husband was interested in going and seeing and maybe doing something to with his gun.

Do you know what Mr. Johnson you were asking about?

Let me rephrase the question.

You said the FBI asked you whether you might have been mistaken about Mr. Nixon and whether it might have been Mr. Johnson instead of Mr. Nixon that your husband was interested in doing something to with his gun.

Do you know what Mr. Johnson was being referred to?

Mrs. OSWALD. No; I didn't know who Johnson was. I am ashamed but I never knew his name. I am ashamed myself but I didn't know who Johnson was.

Mr. RANKIN. You didn't know that the FBI was asking about the then Vice President and new President Johnson?

Mrs. OSWALD. No; I never heard of Johnson before he became President.

Mr. DULLES. And you are quite sure----

Mrs. OSWALD. Maybe I am stupid, I don't know.

Mr. DULLES. And you are quite sure that your husband mentioned the name of Nixon to you----

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; I am sure it was Nixon.

Mr. DULLES. That morning?

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether this Nixon incident occurred the day before your husband went to New Orleans?

Mrs. OSWALD. It wasn't the day before. Perhaps 3 days before.

Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Rankin, may I ask a question?

Mr. RANKIN. Yes.

Mr. McKENZIE. Mrs. Oswald, you say or you said a few minutes ago that Mr. Paine knew or knows more about your husband's attitude about the United States than you do. Why did you say that?

Mrs. OSWALD. Because my husband's favorite topic of discussion was politics, and whoever he was with he talked to them politics and Mr. Paine was with him a fair amount and I am not sure they talked about politics. They went to meetings of some kind together, I don't know what kind of meetings.

Mr. McKENZIE. Do you know where the meetings were?

Mrs. OSWALD. In Dallas. After they came back from some meeting my husband

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said to me something about Walker being at this meeting, and he said, "Paine knows that I shot him."

I don't know whether this was the truth or not. I don't know whether it was true or not but this is what he told me.

Mr. McKENZIE. Would they go in Mr. Paine's automobile?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; it was about 2 days after this incident with Stevenson or the next day, or maybe it was the same place, or the next day that a meeting was held where General Walker appeared.

Mr. McKENZIE. lt was the day before.

Mrs. OSWALD. The day before? The day after. I think there was 1 day's difference between them, either it was the day before or the day after.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you say that there were a number of political meetings----

Mrs. OSWALD. Excuse me; but I think this was on Friday. I think that Lee was at this meeting on a Friday.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you say there were a number of political meetings that your husband went to----

Mrs. OSWALD. Excuse me; this was October 24.

Mr. RANKIN. With Mr. Paine?

Mrs. OSWALD. A week after his birthday--this was Friday. I think it was a week after my husband's birthday about October 24 or something like that or the 25th.

Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Reporter, can you give her the question that I asked?

Mrs. OSWALD. Excuse me, please.

(The question was read by the reporter.)

Mrs. OSWALD. I only know about this one.

Mr. RANKIN. Did the FBI tell you that the reason they were asking about whether there was a mistake as to whether it was Mr. Nixon or Vice President Johnson was because there was a report in Dallas papers about Vice President Johnson going to Dallas around the 23d of April?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; they did tell me this. They said that at this time there was only one announcement in the newspapers of anyone coming and that was Vice President Johnson.

Mr. RANKIN. But you still are certain it was Mr. Nixon and not Vice President Johnson?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, no. I am getting a little confused with so many questions. I was absolutely convinced it was Nixon and now after all these questions I wonder if I am right in my mind.

Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband----

Mrs. OSWALD. I never heard about Johnson. I never heard about Johnson. I never knew anything about Johnson. I just don't think it was Johnson. I didn't know his name.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you husband during the Nixon incident say Mr. Nixon's name several times or how many times.

Mrs. OSWALD. Only once.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, you said that your husband went to get the pistol in the room. Will you tell us what room that was that he went to get the pistol?

Mrs. OSWALD. It was a small sort of storeroom. Just to the left off the balcony as you come in; it is just on the left from the balcony.

Mr. RANKIN. Was it out, was the pistol out in the room or was it in a closet?

Mrs. OSWALD. This room contained only a table and some shelves, and the pistol was not on the table. It was hidden somewhere on a shelf.

Representative FORD. Was the rifle in that room, too?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Where was the rifle in the room?

Mrs. OSWALD. Sometimes it was in the corner, sometimes it was up on a shelf. Lee didn't like me to go into this room. That is why he kept it closed all the time and told me not to go into it. Sometimes he went in there and sat by himself for long periods of time.

Mr. DULLES. By closed, do you mean locked?

Mrs. OSWALD. He used to close it from the inside; I don't remember what kind of lock it was. Possibly it was just a-- some kind of a tongue----

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Mr.McKENZIE. Latch.

Mrs. OSWALD. Latch or something like that.

Mr. DULLES. How could he close it from the inside and then get out?

Mrs. OSWALD. When he was inside he could close it from the inside so that I couldn't come in.

Mr. DULLES. But when he came out could he close it from the outside so that you could not get in?

Mrs. OSWALD. No; from the outside it couldn't be locked.

Representative FORD. When you went to New Orleans and packed for the trip to New Orleans, did yon help to pack the pistol or the rifle?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, no; Lee never let me pack things when we went for trips. He always did it himself.

Representative FORD. Did you see him pack the pistol or the rifle?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Representative FORD. Did you know the pistol and the rifle were in the luggage going to New Orleans?

Mrs. OSWALD. I stayed for some time with Ruth Paine after he left for New Orleans and I don't know whether they were in his things or they were in the stuff which was left with me.

Representative FORD. At the time Mrs. Paine picked you up to go to the bus station, did you intend to go by bus to New Orleans at that time?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Representative FORD. While you were living on Neely Street you didn't tell us before of any extensive rifle shooting at Love Field or rifle practice at Love Field. Can you tell us more about it now?

Mrs. OSWALD. Lee didn't tell me when he was going out to practice. I only remember one time distinctly that he went out because he took the bus. I don't know if he went to Love Field at that time. I don't--after all this testimony, after all this testimony, when I was asked did he clean his gun a lot, and I answered yes, I came to the conclusion that he was practicing with his gun because he was cleaning it afterwards.

Representative FORD. Did he take the rifle and the pistol to Love Field or at the time he went on the bus?

Mrs. OSWALD. Only the rifle.

Mr. McKENZIE. Just a minute. Let me ask her a question. May I ask a question?

Representative FORD. Yes, sir.

Mr. McKENZIE. Representative Ford, I wasn't here as you know when Mrs. Oswald testified before. I have been with her when she was interrogated by the FBI relative to practicing the rifle shooting. This is the first time that I have heard the use of the words "Love Field." Has there been prior testimony by Mrs. Oswald here that he was practicing at Love Field, because the reason I ask this is because she has steadfastly in the past told me and the FBI that she didn't know where he went to practice and that is the reason I wanted to know.

Mr. RANKIN. The record is----

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know where he practiced. I just think that the bus goes to, went to Love Field.

Mr. RANKIN. Her testimony before was that the bus that he took, that she knows about when he went, was a bus that went to Love Field, and she thought he went to some place in that area to do his practicing.

Mr. McKENZIE. The reason I ask the question, Mr. Rankin, is because I don't believe there is any practice area at Love Field for rifle practicing.

Mr. RANKIN. Well, the investigation that the Commission has made shows that there is a place near Love Field where people do shooting and practicing.

Mr. McKENZIE. Not at Love Field.

Mr. RANKIN. It is right adjacent, in the neighborhood.

Mrs. OSWALD. Once we went out with Kathy Ford with the children to watch airplanes landing and these airplanes made a tremendous noise and for that reason I thought that maybe my husband was practicing somewhere in that area because you couldn't hear the sound of shots. I don't know if there is any place near there where one can practice shooting, though. This idea just came to me

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a little while ago when we were out there, watching the airplanes because it was a couple of weeks ago that this happened. Just sort of a guess of mine.

Mr. DULLES. How did he pack the gun or conceal the gun when he went out on the bus toward Love Field?

Mrs. OSWALD. Are you talking about the gun or the rifle?

Mr. DULLES. I am talking about the rifle.

Mrs. OSWALD. He used to wrap it up in his overcoat, raincoat.

Mr. RANKIN. So that the record will be clear on this, Mr. McKenzie, the prior testimony did not purport to indicate that Mrs. Oswald thought he was practicing right on Love Field where the airplanes were landing or anything like that. It was that he took that bus and took the rifle and came back with the rifle and that the bus went to Love Field and the investigation has shown that there is at least one place in that immediate neighborhood where there is gun practice carried on.

Mr. DULLES. Is there testimony, Mr. Rankin, as to more than one should we get that from the witness?

Mr. RANKIN. She testified right now she only knew of this one although she knew of his cleaning his guns a number of times. She just testified to that. Do you want more than that?

Mr. DULLES. I thought the record was a little fuzzy. Maybe you should clarify it.

Mr. McKENZIE. I think you should ask the question.

Mr. RANKIN. Will you tell us, Mrs. Oswald, how you thought your husband might have been practicing in the area near Love Field or how you concluded that he might have been practicing with the rifle in the area near Love Field.

Mrs. OSWALD. Only because that is the bus, only because that is where the bus goes. He never told me where.

Mr. RANKIN. And you don't know whether he was practicing at a place near Love Field or some place between where he got on the bus near your home and Love Field; is that right?

Mrs. OSWALD. No; I don't know, even now I don't know where it is.

Senator COOPER. Can I just ask a question? Do you know how many times he took the rifle from your home?

Mrs. OSWALD. Well----

Mr. DULLES. You are speaking of Neely Street.

Mrs. OSWALD. I only saw----

Senator COOPER. When you were living on Neely Street--strike that. You have told about his taking the rifle from the house on Neely Street and then later cleaning the rifle. Do you know how many times that occurred?

Mrs. OSWALD. I saw him take the rifle only once when we were living on Neely Street but he cleaned the rifle perhaps three or four times, perhaps three times--three times.

Senator COOPER. Did he ever tell you that he was practicing with a rifle?

Mrs. OSWALD. Only after I saw him take the gun that one time.

Senator COOPER. Did you ask him if he had been practicing with the rifle?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I asked him.

Senator COOPER. What did he say?

Mrs. OSWALD. He said yes.

Senator COOPER. Did he ever give any reason why he was practicing with the rifle to you?

Mrs. OSWALD. He didn't give me a reason. He just said that for a man it is an interesting thing to have a rifle. I considered this some kind of a sport for him. I didn't think he was planning to employ it. I didn't take it seriously.

(At this point, Senator Cooper left the heating room.)

Mr. RANKIN. At the time of the Nixon incident did you know who Mr. Nixon was?

Mrs. OSWALD. I didn't know what position he held. I thought he was Vice President.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever check to see whether Mr. Nixon was in fact in Dallas anytime around that date?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

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Mr. RANKIN. After the day of the Nixon incident did you ever discuss that incident again with your husband?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Did the Nixon incident have anything to do with your decision to go to New Orleans to live?

Mrs. OSWALD. After the incident with Walker it became clear to me that it would be a good idea to go away from Dallas and after the incident with Nixon insisted--I insisted on it.

Mr. RANKIN. After the Nixon incident did you ever discuss that Nixon incident again with your husband?

Mrs. OSWALD. No. I don't know why. Perhaps it didn't make a very strong impression on me and that is why I didn't mention it in my first testimony. Perhaps it is because the first incident with Walker made such a strong impression that what happened afterward was somewhat effaced by it. I was so much upset by this incident with General Walker that I only just wanted to get away from Dallas as fast as possible.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you discuss the Nixon incident with anyone other than your husband before the assassination of President Kennedy?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever consider telling the police about the Walker and Nixon incidents?

Mrs. OSWALD. I thought of this but then Lee was the only person who was supporting me in the United States, you see. I didn't have any friends, I didn't speak any English and I couldn't work and I didn't know what would happen if they locked him up and I didn't know what would happen to us. Of course, my reason told me that I should do it but because of circumstances I couldn't do it.

Mr. RANKIN. When did you first tell something about the Nixon incident?

Mrs. OSWALD. It was after the assassination; we were in Martin's house and I think Robert was there also. That is when I first mentioned that. I don't remember whether I told them both at the same time or told Martin first and Robert second or Robert first and Martin second.

Mr. RANKiN. Do you know about when that was with reference to the time you moved in with the Martins?

Mrs. OSWALD. I think it was in the first month. I don't remember which day it was, though.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall whether you first told Robert about it some time in January of this year?

Mrs. OSWALD. I think it was earlier than that, early in December. Perhaps in the beginning of January, but I think it was before New Year's.

Mr. RANKIN. If Robert has stated that it was on a Sunday, January 12 of this year, do you think he is in error then?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't think that Robert would make a mistake. I might make a mistake myself but I don't think he would make a mistake because he doesn't have quite as many, because he has not been in contact with quite as many of these events and doesn't have quite as much to remember as I have. And in general, I have a bad memory for figures.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you discuss the Nixon incident at anytime with Mr. Thorne or Mr. Martin, your agent?

Mrs. OSWALD. I told Martin about it but I don't think I told Thorne about it, and if Thorne learned about it it must have been from Martin.

Mr. RANKIN. You just related how you told Mr. Martin about it and the occasion in your testimony a moment ago; is that right?

Mrs. OSWALD. I am certain that these were the circumstances in which I told Martin about this. Whether or not the--it's possible I was just talking with Martin and his wife about Lee and it just came into my mind and I don't remember whether Robert was there or not, or whether I told Robert later.

Mr. RANKIN. Did anyone at anytime advise you or tell you not to tell the Commission about this incident?

Mrs. OSWALD. Martin told me that it is not necessary to mention this. But when they were asking me here in the Commission whether I had anything to

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add to my testimony, I really forgot about it. When Martin and I were talking about it he said, "Well, try not to think about these things too much."

Mr. RANKIN. Did he say anything about why it wasn't necessary to tell about this incident?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember. I don't think he told me why. Maybe he told me and I just didn't understand because I didn't understand English very well.

Mr. RANKIN. When you were telling about the Nixon incident you referred to your husband's sadistic streak. Do you recall that?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell us a little more about that, how it showed?

Mrs. OSWALD. Anytime I did something which didn't please him he would make me sit down at a table and write letters to the Russian Embassy stating that I wanted to go back to Russia. He liked to tease me and torment me in this way. He knew that this--he just liked to torment me and upset me and hurt me, and he used to do this especially if I interfered in any of his political affairs, in any of his political discussions. He made me several times write such letters.

Mr. DULLES. I have just one question: What did you or your husband do with these letters that you wrote? Did any of them get mailed or did they all get destroyed?

Mrs. OSWALD. He kept carbons of these letters but he sent the letters off himself.

Mr. DULLES. To the Russian Embassy?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; he didn't give me any money to buy stamps. I never had any pocket money of my own.

Mr. RANKIN. But the letters to the Embassy you are referring to are actual letters and requested requests--they weren't practice letters or anything of that kind to punish you, were they?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; they were real letters. I mean if my husband didn't want me to live with him any longer and wanted me to go back, I would go back, not because I wanted to go back but I didn't have any choice.

Mr. RANKIN. I misunderstood you then because I thought you were describing the fact that he made you write letters as a part of this sadistic streak that would never be sent but what he actually did was have you prepare the letters and then he proceeded to send them, is that your testimony?

Mrs. OSWALD. He did send them and he really wanted this. He knew that this hurt me.

Mr. RANKIN. Those are the letters to the Russian Embassy we have introduced in evidence in connection with your testimony; is that right?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; those are the letters.

Representative FORD. Did he ever show you replies to those letters?

Mrs. OSWALD. At first-yes; there were. At first I didn't believe that he was sending off those letters.

Representative FORD. But you did see the replies?

Mrs. OSWALD. I received answers from the embassy.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, I will turn to another subject, Mrs. Oswald.

Mr. DULLES. Would you like to have a 5-minute recess? We will proceed.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, Mrs. Oswald, I would like to ask you about the Irving Gun Shop in Dallas.

Mrs. OSWALD. The what? I don't know anything about this at all.

Mr. RANKIN. Your counsel tells me I should correct that, that Irving is not a part of Dallas. It is the city of Irving. A witness has said that you and your two children and your husband came into a furniture shop asking the location of a gunshop in that area in Irving, and after appearing there that you and your husband, with your husband driving the the car, along with your two children, got in the car and went up the street in the direction of where the gunshop was. Did you recall any incident of that kind?

Mrs. OSWALD. This is just a complete fabrication. Lee never drove a car with me. Only Ruth Paine drove a car with me. And I never took my baby with me.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever go into such a furniture store in Irving?

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Mrs. OSWALD. Never.

Mr. RANKIN. That you recall?

Mrs. OSWALD. I was only twice in a store in Irving where they sell, like a cafe, where you can buy something to eat and where they sell toys and clothes and things like that; a little bit like a Woolworths, a one-story shop but without any furniture in it.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know a Mrs. Whitworth who works in a furniture store in Irving?

Mrs. OSWALD. I was never in Irving in any furniture store.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know a Mrs. Whitworth?

Mrs. OSWALD. It is the first time I have ever heard that name.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know a Mrs. Hunter, a friend of Mrs. Whitworth?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever go on a trip with your husband to have a telescopic lens mounted on a gun at a gunshop?

Mrs. OSWALD. Never. No; this is all not true. In the first place, my husband couldn't drive, and I was never alone with him in a car. Anytime we went in a car it was with Ruth Paine, and there was never--we never went to any gun store and never had any telescopic lens mounted.

Mr. RANKIN. Did the four of you, that is, your husband, you, and your two children, ever go alone any place in Irving?

Mrs. OSWALD. In Irving the baby was only 1 month old. I never took her out anywhere.

Representative FORD. Did you ever go anytime----

Mrs. OSWALD. Just to doctor, you know.

Representative FORD. Did you ever go anytime with your husband in a car with the rifle?

Mrs. OSWALD. I was never at anytime in a car with my husband and with a rifle. Not only with the rifle, not even with a pistol. Even without anything I was never with my husband in a car under circumstances where he was driving a car.

Representative FORD. Did you go in a car with somebody else driving where your husband had the pistol or the rifle?

Mrs. OSWALD. Never. I don't know what to think about this.

Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, I will hand you Commission's Exhibit No. 819 and ask you particularly about the signature at the bottom.

Mrs. OSWALD. That is Lee's handwriting, and this is mine.

Mr. RANKIN. Were the words "A. J. Hidell, Chapter President" on Commission Exhibit No. 819 are in your handwriting?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Would you tell the Commission how you happened to sign that?

Mrs. OSWALD. Lee wrote this down on a piece of paper and told me to sign it on this card, and said that he would beat me if I didn't sign that name on the card.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you have any other discussion about your signing that name?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. What discussion did you have?

Mrs. OSWALD. I said that this sounded like Fidel. I said, "You have selected this name because it sounds like Fidel" and he blushed and said, "Shut up, it is none of your business."

Mr. RANKIN. Was there any discussion about who Hidell, as signed on the bottom of that card, was?

Mrs. OSWALD. He said that it was his own name and that there is no Hidell in existence, and I asked him, "You just have two names," and he said, "Yes."

Mr. RANKIN. Was anything else said about that matter at any time?

Mrs. OSWALD. I taunted him about this and teased about this and said how shameful it is that a person who has his own perfectly good name should take another name and he said, "It is none of your business, I would have to do it this way, people will think I have a big organization" and so forth.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you ask him why he needed to have the other name in your handwriting rather than his own?

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Mrs. OSWALD. I did ask him that and he would answer that in order that people will think it is two people involved and not just one.

Mr. DULLES. Did you ever sign any more such cards with the name "Hidell"?

Mrs. OSWALD. Only this one.

Mr. DULLES. And you never signed the name "Hidell" on any other paper at any time?

Mrs. OSWALD. Only once.

Representative FORD. Where did this actual signing take place, Mrs. Oswald?

Mrs. OSWALD. In New Orleans.

Representative FORD. Where in New Orleans?

Mrs. OSWALD. In what is the name of the street where we lived, in an apartment house.

Representative FORD. In your apartment house?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; in our apartment house.

Representative FORD. What time of day, do you recall?

Mrs. OSWALD. It might have been 8 or 9 o'clock in the evening.

Mr. DULLES. Had you ever heard the name "Hidell" before?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember whether this was before or after Lee spoke on the radio. I think it was after.

Mr. DULLES. Did he use the name Hidell on the radio?

Mrs. OSWALD. I think that he might have when he was talking on the radio said that Hidell is the President of his organization but, of course, I don't understand English well and I don't know. He spoke on the radio using his own name but might have mentioned the name Hidell. This is what he told me. When I tried to find out what he said on the radio.

Mr. DULLES. This might have been on television also?

Mr. OSWALD. It was on the radio, not on televisioln. He told me that someond had taken movies of him for to be shown later on television but I don't know if they ever were.

Mr. DULLES. Did you ever sign the name Hidell at any subsequent time to any document?

Mr. McKENZIE. If you recall signing it. Do you recall signing his name to any other document?

Mrs. OSWALD. I only remember this one occasion.

Mr. RANKIN. Was the way you signed on this Commission's Exhibit No. 819 your usual way of writing English?

Mrs. OSWALD. My English handwriting changes every day, and my Russian handwriting, too. But that is more or less my usual style.

Mr. RANKIN. You weren't trying to conceal the way you sign anything?

Mrs. OSWALD. I tried to do it, I just tried to write it as nicely as possible.

Mr. DULLES. Did you make some practice runs of writing this name before you actually put it on the card?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; because it was difficult for me to write English properly.

Mr. DULLES. So you mean you wrote it several times on another sheet of paper and then put it on this card?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Representative FORD. Was there anybody else present at the time of this incident?

Mrs. OSWALD. No; only Lee.

Representative FORD. Did he have you sign only one card?

Mrs. OSWALD. This was the only time when I--when Lee asked me to do this and I did it. I might have signed two or--- cards and not just one but there weren't a great many.

Representative FORD. Did the other cards have someone else's name besides Lee Harvey Oswald on it?

Mrs. OSWALD. No; only Lee Oswald.

Representative FORD. But you think you might have signed more than one such card?

Mrs. OSWALD. Maybe two, three. This is just 1 day when I was signing this. It just happened on one occasion.

Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, turning to another subject, I would like to ask you about some correspondence with the Dallas Civil Liberties Union.

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Do you recall that they inquired as to whether you were being kept from seeing and speaking to people against your will?

Mrs. OSWALD. This letter was translated by Ruth Paine and I answered on the basis of the translation.

Mr. McKENZIE. May I see those letters, Mr. Rankin?

Mr. RANKIN. Yes.

Mrs. OSWALD. I didn't want to answer this letter. It was simply a matter of courtesy on my part.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, you received a letter from the local chapter of the Civil Liberties Union in Russian, did you not?

Mrs. OSWALD. There was a letter that was in English and there was a translation which came with it, and it was stated that the translation was done by Ruth Paine.

Mr. RANKIN. What did you do with the translation or the I will ask you the translation first. Did you keep that?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember what I did with it.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know what you did with the part that was in Russian?

Mrs. OSWALD. Perhaps it is somewhere among my papers but I didn't pay any special attention to it.

Mr. RANKIN. I will hand you Commission Exhibit No. 331 and ask you if that is the letter in English that you referred to?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; it is the letter.

Mr. RANKIN. I call the Commission's attention to the fact that that has already been received in evidence.

Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Rankin, did you write Mr. Olds about this? This appears to be a letter in reply to a letter from you.

Mr. RANKIN. That is right. I asked for it. Mrs. Oswald, will you examine Commission Exhibits Nos. 990 and 991 and state whether you know the handwriting in those exhibits?

Mrs. OSWALD. This is all mine, my handwriting. This is the answer to that letter.

Mr. RANKIN. And the letter, Exhibit No. 990, and the envelope, Exhibit No. 991, in your handwriting were your response to the inquiry of the Dallas Civil Liberties Union on the Exhibit No. 331?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; this was my answer to this letter, Exhibit No. 331.

Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Commission Exhibits Nos. 990 and 991.

Mr. DULLES. You want them admitted at this time?

Mr. RANKIN. Yes; Mr. Chairman.

Mr. DULLES. They shall be admitted.

(Commission Exhibits Nos. 990 and 991 were marked for identification and received in evidence.)

Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, I will ask you to examine Exhibit No. 988 and with the help of the interpreter, advise us whether or not it is a reasonably correct translation of your letter, Exhibit No. 990.

Mrs. OSWALD. This is not an accurate translation.

Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, can you tell us what errors were made, where the corrections should be to make it a correct translation?

Mrs. OSWALD. There is one place here in which it refers to the third sentence of the English text which states: "What you read in the papers is correct."

Mr. RANKIN. How would you correct that?

Mrs. OSWALD. This is incorrect. A better, a proper translation, although unofficial of this passage, and the Russian text of my letter would read, "Your concern is quite unnecessary although it is quite understandable if one is to judge from what is written in the papers."

Mr. RANKIN. Now, will you proceed with any other corrections?

Mrs. OSWALD. This, the letter, the spirit of the letter reflects my own spirit in my own Russian text--although the translation is somewhat inaccurate and tends to shorten my own text somewhat.

There is another inaccuracy which is more important than the others--it is not more important, the first one is more important--there is another which should be called to the Commission's attention.

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The last sentence of the English text reads: "Please let Mrs. Ruth Paine know I owe to her much and think of her as one of my best friends."

Whereas the letter only states that: "Of course, consider her my friend."

Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, I call your attention to Commission Exhibit No. 990 and ask you to note the date which appears to be December 7, 1964.

The Dallas Civil Liberties Union letter, you will note, was dated January 6, 1964, which I will hand you so you can examine it. Could you explain that discrepancy? You might wish to examine them.

Mrs. OSWALD. It can't possibly be the 7th of December 1964 because it hasn't even come yet.

Mr. RANKIN. You might wish to examine the envelope, Exhibit No. 991, that may help you as to the correct date.

Mrs. OSWALD. January 8. I wrote this January 7. It was just my mistake. I wrote it on January 7 and mailed it on the 8th. I just out of habit still writing December.

Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Rankin, may I ask the Commission, on Commission Exhibit No. 988, which purports to be a translation of Mrs. Oswald's letter to the Dallas Civil Liberties Union, do you know who translated this letter or could you tell us who translated the letter?

Mr. RANKIN. Mr. McKenzie----

Mrs. OSWALD. They wrote me that I can answer them in Russian, and which I did but I haven't any idea who translated my answer.

Mr. RANKIN The Commission Exhibit No. 987 which I will now offer states that the translation was handled by Mrs. Ford and later seen by Mrs. Paine.

The translation of the exhibit that you now have in your hand, what is the number of that?

Mr. McKENZIE. This is Commission Exhibit No. 988 in English which purports to be a translation of Mrs. Oswald's letter to the Dallas Civil Liberties Union and I am asking does the Commission know who translated the letter?

Mr. RANKIN. We were informed by the Dallas Civil Liberties Union in Exhibit No. 987 that the translation was made by Mrs. Ford and later seen by Mrs. Paine, and I now offer all exhibits together with Exhibit No. 987 as part of the testimony of this witness.

Mr. DULLES. The exhibits shall be admitted. Have we the numbers of all of these exhibits?

Mr. RANKIN. Yes; the reporter has them.

(Commission Exhibit No. 987 was marked for identification and received in evidence.)

Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, I will hand you the cameras of your----

Mr. DULLES. I wonder before we finish this----

Mr. McKENZIE. I would prefer, Mr. Rankin, for the purposes of the record so that the record will be complete, to have a correct English translation of Mrs. Oswald's letter in the record in lieu of Commission Exhibit No. 988.

Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chairman, if it is agreeable to the Commission, I would like to ask counsel to furnish such a translation and we will then make it the next number, Exhibit No. 992, as a part of this record.

Mr. DULLES. That shall be admitted then as Exhibit No. 992, the other already being in the record I think, probably has to stay there particularly in view of all this discussion of it.

Mr. RANKIN. If you will furnish it.

Mr. McKENZIE. You are putting the onus or burden back on me, Mr. Rankin, when the Commission has a fully qualified, I presume, Russian interpreter here, and if the Commission would not mind going to the further expense of having the interpretation of the letter made, I think it would expedite the Commission's report.

Mr. RANKIN. If it is satisfactory to Mr. McKenzie, then, Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask Mr. Coulter if he would make a translation and submit it to Mr. McKenzie for submission to his client for approval, and then we will have that marked the Exhibit No. 992 and made part of this record.

Mr. DULLES. Excellent, that will be admitted as such, Commission Exhibit No. 992.

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Mr. McKENZIE. Thank you, Mr. Rankin and thank you Mr. Chairman.

(Commission Exhibit No. 992 was marked for identification and received in evidence.)

Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, will you examine the cameras of your husband and tell us which one took the pictures that showed your husband with the rifle and the pistol, as you will recall?

The pictures I am asking you about are Exhibits Nos. 133-A and 133-B which you recall are the.ones that you said in your prior testimony you took yourself.

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. With one of these cameras.

Mrs. OSWALD. This is the first and last time in my life I ever took a photograph and it was done with this gray camera.

Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Rankin, the Commission exhibit numbers of the two cameras, one is Commission Exhibit No. 136 and one is Commission Exhibit No. 750.

Mr. McKENZIE. And the gray camera she is referring to, Mr. Rankin, for the purpose of the record is Commission Exhibit No. 750, isn't that right, Mrs. Oswald?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. That is the gray camera you just said you took pictures with, is that correct?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. The other camera also belonged to Lee but I don't use it.

Mr. RANKIN. Turning to another subject now, Mrs. Oswald, while you and Lee Harvey Oswald were at Minsk in the Soviet Union, can you tell us how Lee Harvey Oswald spent his leisure time while he was there?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know how he spent his time before we were married but afterwards he was a great lover of classical music and used to go to concerts a lot, and theaters, and movies, symphony concerts, and we used to go out on the lakes around Minsk. There are some lakes in the confines of Minsk and outside where we used to go.

Mr. RANKIN. While there did he read much?

Mrs. OSWALD. He didn't read very much because there wasn't a very great choice of books in English except the ones on Marxism.

Mr. DULLES. He could, however, read books in Russian, could he not, at this time?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; but it was a lot of work for him and he really didn't enjoy it very much. But he did go to Russian films and understood them.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he go to the rifle club there?

Mrs. OSWALD. He belonged to a hunters--a club of hunters and had a rifle but he never went to the practice meetings of this club. He only paid his membership dues, and I think that he joined this club in order to be able to acquire a rifle because only apparently members of such hunting clubs have the right in the Soviet Union to own a rifle. Only once did he go out with a group of some of my friends and take his rifle and try and shoot some game but he didn't catch anything.

Representative FORD. Did he buy the rifle or was it given to him?

Mrs. OSWALD. He bought it.

Representative FORD. What did you do with it when you went to the United States?

Mrs. OSWALD. I think he sold it.

Representative FORD. Was it a rifle of--much like the one that was used in the assassination?

Mrs. OSWALD. All rifles look alike to me.

Mr. McKENZIE. Did it have a telescopic sight on it, Marina?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. McKENZIE. But it was similar to the same rifle that he had in the United States?

Mrs. OSWALD. No. It wasn't identical but it might have been similar, seeing as how they are both single barrel rifles. I don't understand anything about rifles at all and I really am not qualified to talk about them.

Mr. RANKIN. You mentioned that he went to the rifle club on one occasion or the hunting club on one occasion with some friends to hunt squirrels or

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rabbits or things of that sort. Did he go to the hunting club on other occasions to practice to shoot?

Mrs. OSWALD. When I first saw the rifle here in the United States I didn't pay much attention to it because I thought this was the rifle he had brought from Russia.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he practice shooting the rifle in Russia?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you see him or observe him cleaning the rifle in Russia?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. And would he clean the rifle, did he clean it on several occasions?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, several times.

Mr. RANKIN. The hunting club that he belonged to, did it have an instructor in shooting the rifle?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know but there should have been one.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, he had to have a permit to purchase the rifle in Russia.

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; you can't possess a rifle without a--permission in the Soviet Union.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he purchase the rifle from a government agency?

Mrs. OSWALD. You buy these rifles in special stores, but to buy them you have to have a paper from the hunting club stating that you have the right to buy a rifle.

Mr. RANKIN. And the authorized government official gave him authority to by the gun through the hunting club?

Mrs. OSWALD. The hunting club issues this permit. He used to clean the rifle but he never used it. It always hung on the wall.

Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, will you describe what you were saying off the record in regard to his going out to use the rifle in the country as distinguished from using it in the club?

Mrs. OSWALD. We all went out together in a group of boys and girls in order to get--to swim a little and to get a suntan. It was a lake which is just on the edge, of town not far from Minsk, and the men had guns, and they all went out to try to shoot some kind of rabbit or bird or something like that, and the men went off together and I heard several shots and they came back and they hadn't caught anything so we laughed at it.

Mr. RANKIN. Did that happen more than once?

Mrs. OSWALD. Only one such trip. And even that time he didn't want to take the gun with him. He took it only because one of my friends was laughing at him and said, "You have a gun hanging here and you never use it. Why don't you bring it along and see if you can use it."

Mr. RANKIN. Did you and your husband have any friends other than Russians while you were at Minsk?

Mrs. OSWALD. There were friends. We had some friends from Argentina but they didn't come on this excursion with us.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you have any friends there who were from Cuba?

Mrs. OSWALD. There were Cuban students studying in Minsk, and this Argentinian girl had a Cuban boyfriend and possibly Lee met this boyfriend, this Cuban student, but I never met him.

Mr. DULLES. Do you know where the Cuban students were studying, what particular school?

Mrs. OSWALD. They study in various educational institutions in Minsk, some are in the medical institute, others are in the agricultural and others are in the polytechnical institute.

Mr. DULLES. Could you tell us a little more about these Argentinians, were they there for educational reasons or what was the reason they were there?

Mrs. OSWALD. Excuse me; I am mixed up with Cubans. You talk about Argentinians?

Mr. DULLES. I asked about Argentinians but I would be glad to have you add the Cubans to it, too.

Mrs. OSWALD. There is agreement between the Cuban Government and the Russian Government; and the Cuban Government under this agreement sends Cuban students to study in the Soviet Union.

From what I could tell from what Lee said, many of these Cuban students

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were not satisfied with life in the Soviet Union, and this Argentinian girl told me the same thing. Many of them thought that, they were not satisfied with conditions in the Soviet Union and thought if Castro were to be in power that the conditions in Cuba would become similar to those in the Soviet Union and they were not satisfied with this. They said it wasn't worth while carrying out a revolution just to have the kind of life that these people in the Soviet Union had.

Representative FORD. Would you have any idea how many Cubans were in school in Minsk?

Mrs. OSWALD. I heard the figure of 300 but I never knew even a single one.

Representative FORD. Could you be more helpful in the kind of schools they went to, what were the schools?

Mrs. OSWALD. Most of them were in agricultural institutes. Some were in the institute of foreign languages where they spent a year studying Russian in order subsequently to go on into some other institute where they could study some more formal subject or some more formal discipline.

Representative FORD. About how old were these students?

Mrs. OSWALD. About between 17 and 21.

Mr. DULLES. Was your husband absent from you during any protracted period after your marriage, and during your stay in Minsk other than the trip I think he took one trip to Moscow without you.

Mrs. OSWALD. Once I went to Kharkov, and he stayed in Minsk. Other than that there were no absences on his part, except, of course, for the trip to Moscow. Do you want to talk about the Argentinian students?

Mr. DULLES. Yes; if you have more to say about that.

Mrs. OSWALD. These are people who left Poland about 30 years previously for Argentina. Then after the second World War the part of Poland where they had been living became part of the Soviet Union and the father of this family was an engineer and worked in the same factory where Lee worked, his name was Zieger.

They had two daughters born in Argentina, and the wife was very homesick for her native country, so they came back and the Soviet Government gave them Soviet citizenship before they got on the boat to come back. Then she told us what she had been reading in the newspapers was just propaganda and they thought the life was a little better than what they found out what it was when they arrived. Now, they have been there 7 or 8 years and they would prefer to go back to Argentina but they can't.

Mr. DULLES. In connection with your husband's work in the factory did he have any indoctrination courses as a part of that in Marxism, Leninism, or in anything of that kind in connection with his work in the factory?

Mrs. OSWALD. I think there are such courses in the factory for party members and for people who want to become party members but Lee never went to them. When he was in Russia he didn't like Russian Communists. He thought they were all bureaucrats. I don't actually know what he liked except himself.

Mr. DULLES. Do you know whether your husband received any special pay or special funds through the Russian Red Cross or through any other channel in addition to his regular pay in the factory?

Mrs. OSWALD. Before we were married he apparently--he told me he was getting some assistance from the Government, but he told me this after we were married, and I don't know from whom or in what way he got it.

Representative FORD. Did you have any idea how much extra he was getting over his wages?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know how much it was but he had quite a lot of money in the beginning. Maybe he wrote about this in his diary.

Representative FORD. Did you know how much he was earning each week while he was employed?

Mrs. OSWALD. In Russia they don't pay for every week. Eighty rubles a month.

Representative FORD. Eighty rubles a month?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. Those are the new rubles?

Mrs. OSWALD. New rubles.

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Mr. DULLES. Those were the new rubles, revalued rubles, that is about $90; is it not?

Mrs. OSWALD. $90 or $80.

Representative FORD. While you were married did you know of any extra money he was getting?

Mrs. OSWALD. He didn't receive any--he didn't receive any extra money while we were married, he had a little bit left over from what he was getting before, that is all.

Representative FORD. Did he handle all of the money that he received or did he give you some while you were in the Soviet Union?

Mrs. OSWALD. I was working at the same time, and I gave him my salary and he in turn would give me some money every now and then to buy groceries with and that sort of thing, but I didn't ever get any money from his salary.

Representative FORD. So the only income that you know about was the money you earned and the money that he earned?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Representative FORD. And how much did you earn?

Mrs. OSWALD. 45.

Representative FORD. 45 rubles a month?

Mrs. OSWALD. A month.

Representative FORD. There were no other funds, to your knowledge, that he received after you were married?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Representative FORD. He paid all the bills?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. You didn't have too much bills in Russia.

Mr. DULLES. Did he take your money, too? What was your rent, do you recall at that time, rent of the apartment?

Mrs. OSWALD. Seven rubles and 50 cents, kopeks.

Mr. DULLES. Was it 7 rubles and 50 kopeks? A week?

Mrs. OSWALD. A month; the rent in Russia are usually about 10 percent of wages a month.

Mr. McKENZIE. Wages are low, too.

Mrs. OSWALD. Of course, people who get more, higher wages have bigger apartments.

Mr. DULLES. Mr. Rankin, I think, is it all right to adjourn at this point? We will reconvene at 2 o'clock.

(Whereupon, at 12:50 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)

Volume v, page 410-420

TESTIMONY OF MRS. LEE HARVEY OSWALD RESUMED

Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, I would like to turn now to the pictures of your husband that I asked you about earlier, when you identified the gray camera as the one that was used in taking the pictures. And I called your attention to Commission Exhibits Nos. 133-A and 133-B. I now wish to ask you specifically whether you used that camera that you saw identified for the taking of both of these pictures. And in so doing, I wish to call your attention to the fact that there were two different positions in the exhibits.

Mrs. OSWALD. I took both these pictures at the same time, and with same camera.

Mr. RANKIN. And in giving that answer, you have examined the pictures, and you know they are different positions--that is, your husband has the rifle in different positions and the newspaper in different positions in the two pictures--do you?

Mrs. OSWALD. I am aware of that.

Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, did you ever have a discussion with your husband about when he decided that he would like to become a citizen of the Soviet Union?

Mrs. OSWALD. We discussed this and he said that the Soviet Government wanted him to become a Soviet citizen and furnished him the necessary papers, but he apparently refused. But the way it appears in his diary, of course, is quite different--in fact, the exact opposite.

Mr. RANKIN. By the exact opposite, you mean that it shows in his diary that he was the one that wanted to be a Soviet citizen, and the Soviet Union refused to allow that; is that right?

Mrs. OSWALD. That is correct.

Representative FORD. When did this conversation on this subject take place, Mrs. Oswald?

Mrs. OSWALD. About 3 months after we were married.

Representative FORD. While you were living in Minsk?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Representative FORD. Do you remember how the discussion came up?

Mrs. OSWALD. When Lee wrote the American Embassy requesting return to the United States and requesting an American passport, he told me that it was very lucky that he hadn't become a Soviet citizen, and that his passport was still in the American Embassy. And that if he had become a Soviet citizen, it would have been difficult if not impossible to leave.

Before I found out about his diary, I didn't realize that the Soviet Government had refused to grant him citizenship, because he never talked about this, never mentioned it.

Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chief Justice, that is the end of the questioning that I planned to examine Mrs. Oswald about. I understand that Congressman Ford has some.

I would like before closing to make an offer of what has been marked now as Commission Exhibit No. 993, which is the story that Mrs. Oswald developed in Russian that was furnished to us, and I want to inform the Commission that it was furnished to us for the purpose of trying to examine Mrs. Oswald the first time, and that counsel at that time and present counsel wanted to make it very clear that they didn't want to lose any property interest in that document.

Volum V, page 410-420

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And all rights that they might have to publish it and use it commercially and any other way that she might have, and that it was merely furnished to the Commission for official purposes and very strictly limited in that manner. But I would like to offer it and the Commission may want to reserve its decision as to whether it should be made a part of the record and published. But I think it should at this time be offered for your consideration in that manner.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes. Does counsel wish to add anything to that?

Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, Mr. Chairman; I would, if I may, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Mr. McKENZIE. I appreciate Mr. Rankin's remarks in connection with the offering of Mrs. Oswald's memoirs, or manuscript of her memoirs, which, I understand, is Commission Exhibit No. 993. The manuscript prepared by Mrs. Oswald was heretofore voluntarily presented for the sole and exclusive purpose of assisting the Commission in its official duties for the Commission's use and benefit and to help the Commission in evaluating Mrs. Oswald's testimony as well as the testimony of others in arriving at a report setting forth its findings and conclusions to the President and the American people.

Mrs. Oswald and her two minor children have property rights that are private to her and to them in the publishing and use of the memoirs set forth in her manuscript, which was written solely for her use in writing a book for commercial purposes. She does object to the inclusion of the manuscript in the record, or the publishing of same, and she does not waive or relinquish or in anyway legally or otherwise give away her proprietary rights in this regard, to the manuscript.

She respectfully requests that the Commission honor her request in what has heretofore been deemed and what she now deems to be her assistance to the Commission--and I will say this--that she has told me repeatedly that she has sought to assist the Commission in every possible and conceivable way. But in light of that, she does respect the Commission's indulgence in not publishing this manuscript, and asks that this only be used as it was presented for the purpose of assisting the Commission in its official duties, in evaluating the evidence.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you have any suggestions as to how we might use it and at the same time not permanently deprive the public of an opportunity to see it?

Before you answer that, I want to say this. I am sure no member of the Commission wants to--has any desire to in anyway interfere with the property rights of Mrs. Oswald. She did cooperate with us in bringing this. We feel grateful that she did do it. On the other hand, we do want eventually to have this in the record so the public will know that they are getting everything that the Commission has. I am just wondering if perhaps while you are contemplating writing something on the subject, and protecting her property rights, if we could seal this with a notation that it was not to be opened for public view until that has been done. And you could let us know when that day has passed. Would that protect her rights?

Mr. McKENZIE. Well, Mr. Chief Justice, I would be the last one in the world to suggest anything either to yourself or to the Commission insofar as the way this matter should be handled. I do have, or feel, that the manuscript was given to the Commission, the Commission has had more than adequate opportunity to interrogate Mrs. Oswald. She is willing to stay here now as long as the Commission desires, and will do so voluntarily without the issuance of a subpena or any other way.

I think through the interrogation that Mr. Rankin has conducted--I might remark, most ably--that certainly the matters covered in the manuscript have already been covered in direct sworn testimony. And with that thought in mind, it was my feeling, and it is my feeling that the Commission and its staff, through the help and assistance of the manuscript and Mrs. Oswald, have had the benefit of all the matters previously written down by Mrs. Oswald, and that if there are any questions that have not been covered that are covered in the manuscript, I am sure that counsel for the Commission could adequately cover those questions. The manuscript was prepared by Mrs. Oswald in the form of memoirs. And was not prepared for the use of the Commission. And I think without the Commission's knowledge it was prepared beforehand. And she brought it so

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the Commission could have the effect of it and the use of it Now, if the Commission feels that it should be finally published as part of the report, I would certainly hope that the Commission would honor her and withhold the publishing of the manuscript until such time as she has the opportunity to conclude any negotiations which she might have or possibly have for the publishing of a book.

I ask this not so much for Mrs. Oswald herself, but more for her two children.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, we will do at least that. We will take the matter under consideration and having in mind her rights and our desire not to interfere with them we will try to work out a solution that will be satisfactory to you and to her.

Mr. McKENZIE. I thank you very much, Mr. Chief Justice. And I might add that the Chief Justice and all members of this Commission and its staff know full well, or at least I feel would know full well that just as soon as this report is published and distributed to the public, or distributed to the press, regardless of what property rights she may have now or may have then, it will be extremely difficult for Mrs. Oswald to protect those rights--if not impossible.

The CHAIRMAN. I would like to say, also, for the record that there is nothing sensational or nothing of a secretive nature in the document. It is something that, as you say, was written for publication, and we assume that it will be some day published, probably, and that if it is not given to the public, it will not be because there is anything of a secret nature in there. It would only be a question of whether it could be done consistent with the rights of the witness. And we will bear those in mind, you may be sure.

Mr. McKENZIE. I thank you, Mr. Chief Justice.

And if I may add one other thing. I have heretofore made a request on Mr. Rankin in connection with a diary which was presented by Robert Oswald at the time of his testimony to the Commission, that Robert Oswald had prepared shortly after November 22, and which not only has he furnished the diary to the Commission, but has also narrated that diary by reading same on dictaphone tapes, and I have, in turn, furnished it to Mr. Jennet, a member of the Commission's staff.

I have requested the Commission not to print Robert Oswald's diary for the same reasons that I have heretofore outlined in connection with Mrs. Oswald's manuscript. And I would hope that the Commission could consider Robert Oswald's diary in the same light that you would consider this manuscript. I am not saying that either have any commercial value, but if they do I would hope that they would inure to the benefit of Mrs. Oswald's family and the benefit of Robert Oswald's family.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes. We will consider that, also. But there are some portions of the diary of Mr. Oswald that are in the record already as a result of his examination, as there are things involved in this document of Mrs. Oswald's that are in the record by question and answer.

Mr. McKENZIE. There is one other thing, and then I will close on this particular subject. Mrs. Oswald does not have a copy of the manuscript of her memoirs. Her former attorney, Mr. Thorne, or her former so-called business manager, Mr. James Martin, reportedly to me has such a copy. But at the present time she does not have a copy of this manuscript nor do I have a copy of the manuscript.

The CHAIRMAN. You may have one immediately.

Mr. McKENZIE. Fine, sir--I would like to say at the Commission's expense.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes; of course, we will see you have one.

Mr. McKENZIE. At the time that Robert Oswald gave his testimony to the Commission, Mr. Jenner and Mr. Liebler followed the practice of taking originals and photostating them or Xerox copying them and giving the originals back. Before we do close today, I would like to make a request on the record to have all the articles that Marina has brought up here in the way of letters and things of that sort returned to her, with, of course, adequate copies for the Commission and its use. And I don't know whether you have any or not.

Mr. RANKIN. You have made your request

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The CHAIRMAN. We will consider that along with the other things. Mr. Rankin, will you continue now?

Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Coulter, could you state for the record whether you have related this colloquy to Mrs. Oswald, so that she is informed of it?

Mr. COULTER. I gave it to her in general terms, that they were discussing the question of the rights to her manuscript and the rights to the originals of the various objects in her possession, which she had made available to the Commission.

Mr. RANKIN. Thank you.

(At this point, Mr. Dulles entered the hearing room.)

Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chief Justice, I have one other offer to make, and I would like to offer it under Exhibit No. 994, and that would be a translation of this document, that would present the same problems.

We have a translation that was made by Mr. Gopadze, the Secret Service agent, who is quite familiar with the Russian language. But we earlier today had a letter that Mrs. Oswald wrote to the Civil Liberties Union of Dallas, and she questioned some of the translation from Russian into English, which was not done by any of our people, of course. And we are not so sure about Mr. Gopadze's translation. So we would like to follow what was suggested at that time, that Mr. Coulter make a translation of this, which we would submit to counsel for Mrs. Oswald, and Mrs. Oswald, for them to be satisfied it is a correct translation, and then make that translation a part of the record, subject to your deciding later whether it should be.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, instead of referring it to Mr. Coulter, we will refer it to Mrs. Oswald's attorney, and he can have prepared any translation that he wishes, and then we will have it for comparison with the other.

Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chief Justice, I thought we would save them the expense.

The CHAIRMAN. I would rather deal directly with the counsel, and then we are not in any cross purposes. He can have it done any way he wants.

Mr. McKENZIE Mr. Chief Justice, with your kind indulgence, sir, and the Commission's kind indulgence, Mr. Coulter's translation of this document would be more than satisfactory with Mrs. Oswald and with myself. And, quite frankly, the funds which she has available to her for such a purpose are so extremely limited that it would be an extreme hardship on her to employ an interpreter to translate it.

The CHAIRMAN. That is perfectly all right, that Mr. Coulter should do it. I have no objection at all to Mr. Coulter. Only when we are dealing with a client of a lawyer, we like to deal directly with him, and he can deal with the translator if he wishes.

Mr. McKENZIE. I think we are both trying to serve the same purpose. But Mr. Rankin and I, I think, are in full agreement on Mr. Coulter's interpretation of this manuscript--if that is satisfactory with the Commission.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes; if it is satisfactory with you, it is satisfactory with me. There is no question about that.

Mrs. OSWALD. Maybe in this manuscript many details are lacking which have been developed in my testimony, because I wrote it mainly for public consumption.

Mr. RANKIN. We understand, Mrs. Oswald. I am sure the Commissioners all understand that the manuscript is something that was referred to in order to inquire from you during your giving of testimony, and that your testimony, together with the manuscript, should be considered if there is any question, because you do not purport to cover everything in the manuscript. Is that what you are saying?

Mrs. OSWALD. I am very ashamed that there is so much unnecessary information in this manuscript and that it caused the interpreter so much difficulty in translating it.

Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chief Justice, I then offer under Exhibit No. 994, and I make, without repeating them, the same suggestions I did about the Russian document, Exhibit No. 993, and ask that we follow the procedure of getting the translation, and then make it a part of this record, subject to the Commission's determining that it should be.

The CHAIRMAN. It may be done in that manner.

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Mr. RANKIN. That is all.

The CHAIRMAN. Congressman Ford, do you have some matters?

Mrs. OSWALD. I would like to know if the Commission wants me to make some comment on any differences in substance between the manuscript and the testimony which I have given, or between the manuscript or the translation, whichever translation may be accepted, or both.

The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will ask the questions, if there is anything of that nature. Now, Congressman Ford, do you have some questions?

Representative FORD. Yes, Mr. Chief Justice, I have a few questions. In the Soviet Union, when a marriage application is applied for, what are the steps that you take?

Mrs. OSWALD. There are certain applications which have to be filled out by the boy and girl.

Representative FORD. Do you have to go down together to make the application?

Mrs. OSWALD. It is necessary for both to appear with their passports and fill out this application.

Representative FORD. In other words, Lee Harvey Oswald had to take his passport down to--at the time that he applied for a marriage application?

Mrs. OSWALD. Lee Oswald did not have his passport at the time since it was in the American Embassy. He went with his residence permission to the office. But our marriage was entered into his American passport after we were married and before we left the Soviet Union for the United States.

Representative FORD. So it is not the passport in the sense that we think of a passport, that we get to travel to a foreign country?

Mrs. OSWALD. Since most marriages are concluded between Soviet citizens, they only present their internal passports to the marriage license bureau. But if there is a marriage between a Soviet citizen and a foreigner, he presents his residence permission and his foreign passport, also, if he has one. If he doesn't have it, the residence permission is enough.

Representative FORD. Do we have the document that he presented at the time he applied for marriage?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know. I think he had to turn that in before he left the Soviet Union.

Mr. MCKENZIE. Are you referring to his American passport?

Representative FORD. No; I am referring to the document that he presented at the time he applied for marriage.

Mr. McKENZIE. Which would be a Russian instrument?

Representative FORD. Right.

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know if it is available. I think he had to turn it in before he left the Soviet Union.

Representative FORD. In other words, both you and Lee Harvey Oswald signed the necessary documents for marriage?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Representative FORD. During your period in Minsk, following your marriage, did you and Lee Harvey Oswald have any marital difficulties, any problems between the two of you?

Mrs. OSWALD. We had some difficulties in connection with the fact that I told my uncle and aunt that we were going to leave for the United States. Lee did not want me to tell anybody that we were preparing to leave for the United States.

Representative FORD. That was the only difficulty you had?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Representative FORD. Was your vacation, trip to Kharkov--was that a vacation, or did that result from any marital difficulty?

Mrs. OSWALD. My aunt invited me to Kharkov, and that is why I went. It was not the result of any marital difficulties.

Representative FORD. You testified a few minutes ago, Mrs. Oswald, that there was a difference in the historic diary and what Lee Oswald told you concerning the status of his application for Soviet citizenship. You have read the historic diary?

Mrs. OSWALD. I have only read what the FBI agents translated, those parts of the diary which were translated into Russian by the FBI.

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Representative FORD. Was that much of it or a small part of it?

Mrs. OSWALD. It was the part about his attempt at suicide.

Representative FORD. And also the part concerning the status of his Soviet citizenship?

Mrs. OSWALD. I think that that is the part which deals with his application for Soviet citizenship. I don't know of any other parts of the diary in which this would be set forth.

Representative FORD. You have no idea of when he wrote the historic diary?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know when he began, but I know that after we were married he spent the evenings writing his diary. I think that is the reason why he didn't want me to study English while we were still in Russia, because he didn't want me to be able to read his diary.

Representative FORD. He never read you the diary in Russian?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Representative FORD. On the trip back to the United States, Lee Oswald wrote on the Holland-American Line paper some additional comments. Did you see him write this on the trip?

Mrs. OSWALD. I saw him writing this when we were in the cabin on the ship. I thought they were just letters, though, and I didn't read them. He didn't write these when I was around.

Representative FORD. He didn't write them while you were present?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. REDLICH. I might mention for the record that this document has already been introduced as Commission Exhibit No. 25.

Representative FORD. If you didn't see him write it in the cabin how did you know he wrote it?

Mrs. OSWALD. In the first place, because the paper was from the Holland-American Line, and then I think--in the second place, because I saw these pages covered with writing in the cabin, and I think that he must have gone some place else on the ship, such as the library, to do the actual writing.

Representative FORD. Have you read that which he wrote on the ship?

Mrs. OSWALD. No; I have not read them, because I don't understand English.

Representative FORD. He never read it to you in Russian?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Representative FORD. At any time on the trip back, from the time you started to leave the Soviet Union until you arrived in the United States, did you have any trouble at the border of the Soviet Union or any other country?

Mrs. OSWALD. We had no difficulty with the authorities of any kind on any border. I think that my husband may have had some financial difficulties in New York, when he arrived.

Representative FORD. You left the Soviet Union by what means, now?

Mrs. OSWALD. Train and boat.

Representative FORD. You went from the Soviet Union to Poland by train?

Mrs. OSWALD. We took a train from Moscow to Amsterdam, through Poland and Germany.

Representative FORD. You had no difficulty going into Poland, going through Germany?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Representative FORD. Or into Holland?

Mrs. OSWALD. No. And there were no difficulties in our entering the United States, either.

Representative FORD. When you were living at Elsbeth Street, did you and Lee have any domestic trouble?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Representative FORD. Could you relate how frequently and how serious they were?

Mrs. OSWALD. The first difficulty we had was at Elsbeth Street when I told the landlady that I was from Russia. My husband had told her that I was from Czechoslovakia, and he became very angry with me for telling her I was from Russia, and said that I talked too much.

Representative FORD. That was the first incident?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

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Representative FORD. Were there others?

Mrs. OSWALD. Then we had difficulties because I had a number of Russian friends in Elsbeth Street, around there, in Dallas, and he was jealous of me, and didn't want me to see them.

Representative FORD. During this time, did he physically abuse you? Did he hit you?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Representative FORD. Did Mr. De Mohrenschildt reprimand Lee for his abuse to you?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know. He didn't support this. He didn't favor this conduct of my husband's. But I don't think he ever said anything to him about it, or told him that he shouldn't do it.

Representative FORD. Mr. De Mohrenschildt didn't say anything to Lee Oswald in your presence about his abuse towards you?

Mrs. OSWALD. No; not in my presence.

Representative FORD. Did Mr. De Mohrenschildt take you to Mellers, was it?

Mrs. OSWALD. Anna Meller--no; he did not.

Representative FORD. Mr. De Mohrenschildt did not take you there?

Mrs. OSWALD. No; we had a quarrel, and I took the child and took a taxi, and went by myself there.

Representative FORD. Did you have money to pay for a taxi?

Mrs. OSWALD. Anna Meller paid for the taxi.

Representative FORD. When you got to Anna Meller's?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Representative FORD. I believe that is all, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Dulles, do you have any questions?

Mr. DULLES. A couple, Mr. Chief Justice.

You have described this morning briefly the manner of your life in Minsk. I wonder if you would also discuss that in the United States. What did you do with your leisure time, how did Oswald handle his leisure time when he wasn't working?

I am speaking of your stays in Dallas, Fort Worth, and New Orleans.

Mrs. OSWALD. My life in the United States was not quite as carefree as it had been in the Soviet Union. I was occupied all the time with housework, and I couldn't go anywhere. Lee spent a good deal of time reading.

Mr. DULLES. Were you together most of the time?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. So that you knew where Lee was. Lee wasn't away on trips much of the time, except for his trip to Mexico, and when he was absent in New Orleans?

Mrs. OSWALD. That is correct. We were together.

Mr. DULLES. Do you know what he was reading in those days?

Mrs. OSWALD. He read nonfiction almost entirely and mainly historical works.

Mr. DULLES. Was he reading Russian books or mostly English books?

Mrs. OSWALD. He could read Russian, but he read only English works.

Mr. DULLES. Was he doing much writing in this period, during the American stay?

Mrs. OSWALD. When we were living on Elsbeth Street, he wrote something, and also on Neely Street, I think it was in connection with the Walker, General Walker incident.

Mr. DULLES. Do you know what happened to that particular writing?

Mrs. OSWALD. I know that he destroyed this after the Walker business.

He had a map of Dallas, and he used to go off by himself and think about the map, and work on it. I think you have this map in among the materials of the Commission. He used to work on it, and the least disturbance used to upset him very much when he was working on this map.

Mr. DULLES. When you say he used to go away, do you mean go away in the house or outside the house with the map?

Mrs. OSWALD. In the house, in the kitchen, and would tell me not to come in, not to make any noise at all.

Mr. DULLES. Could you specify as to time and date, as to about when he acquired this map and began this study of the map?

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Mrs. OSWALD. Could I ask the Commission just when we were living on Elsbeth Street, since I have forgotten?

Mr. REDLICH. November 1962 to March 1963. November 3, 1962 to March 2, 1963.

Mrs. OSWALD. I think it was at the end of January, it was after New Years. I think he had a map all the time, but he started becoming particularly occupied with it at the end of January 1963.

Mr. DULLES. 1963?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. Did Oswald, to your knowledge, have friends, associates, other men whom he saw, in addition to the considerable number whom you have described as your friends in Dallas and Fort Worth, whom you have already described? Did he have any business friends or any other friends you can think of that used to come to the house?

Mrs. OSWALD. No one, except for my friends whom I have already told you about.

Mr. DULLES. That is all I have, Mr. Chief Justice.

The CHAIRMAN. Congressman, did you have any more?

Mr. DULLES. I was speaking of the United States.

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; he told me that he was working on this map in connection with the bus schedules. He had a kind of bus schedule, and--a paper with bus schedules on it, and he was somehow comparing them or working on them, or doing something with these two documents.

The CHAIRMAN. Congressman Ford?

Representative FORD. When you left the Soviet Union, Lee borrowed money from the U.S. Government, to pay for your transportation back to the United States. Did you have any other money of your own at that time?

Mrs. OSWALD. We had--it is permissible to exchange a certain amount of Soviet rubles into American dollars in such cases, and we did exchange some Soviet rubles--I think about $180 worth--when we left. But that wasn't enough to pay the whole trip.

Representative FORD. Lee had borrowed from the Government approximately $600?

Mr. RANKIN. $450, and then the exchange made a total of $600 and something.

Representative FORD. This $180 was used with the State Department money for the transportation and the funds for the trip?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know, since my husband took care of that whole matter. He never talked about money with me.

Representative FORD. Would you describe one of the border crossings? What did the Government officials do when you went from Poland into Germany, for example? Tell us what actually happened.

Mrs. OSWALD. The train stopped and people come in and check your documents. On the Russian border, of course, people come in and look at your bags--that is to say, they don't rifle through everything, but they pick things at random and look at them.

Representative FORD. Did Lee carry all the documents?

Mrs. OSWALD. He carried all the documents, since I had the baby to look after.

Representative FORD At the Polish-German border, did they actually examine the documents?

Mrs. OSWALD. More carefully between Russia and Poland than between Poland and Germany.

Representative FORD Did Lee make any acquaintances on the train and the boat?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Representative FORD Did----

Mrs. OSWALD. On the boat there were two Rumanian girls we talked with, since I had studied a little bit of Moldavian before, which is similar to Russian, and could speak a little. And on that basis we met and talked a little.

Representative FORD. Did George De Mohrenschildt at any time take you any place from the Elsbeth Street residence?

Mrs. OSWALD. Only to his house.

Representative FORD. Did Lee accompany you at that time?

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Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; once he took us both home to see his daughter. He took us--took me to see his daughter, at a time when I was living in Fort Worth, and Lee was living in Dallas. I might be confused about just who went, and when.

Representative FORD. But he only took you once from one place to his house?

Mrs. OSWALD. No; we went several times to his house. Maybe two or three times.

Representative FORD. Did Lee accompany you on any of these occasions?

Mrs. OSWALD. Mr. De Mohrenschildt took us once to the Ford's house. It was on New Year's, I think, Katya Ford's house. It was either Christmas or New Year's. I don't think that Mr. De Mohrenschildt is as dangerous as he sounds. This is my personal opinion.

Representative FORD. I wasn't implying that he was dangerous. I was just trying to----

Mrs. OSWALD. He talks all the time. Did he appear before the Commission or not?

Mr. RANKIN. We have his testimony.

Representative FORD. I have nothing further.

The CHAIRMAN. I think that is all, Mrs. Oswald. Thank you very much.

Mr. McKENZIE. I have some questions, if I may.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes; Mr. McKenzie.

Mr. McKENZIE. You mentioned earlier, in response to some question, your husband had stated that the Soviet Government wanted him to become a Soviet citizen, but that his diary says the opposite.

When did you first learn that the Soviet Government wanted Lee Harvey Oswald to become a Soviet citizen?

Mrs. OSWALD. I heard this 3 months after we were married, from Lee.

Mr. MCKENZIE. Did any Soviet----

Mr. DULLES. Who did you hear it from?

Mrs. OSWALD. From Lee.

Mr. McKENZIE. Did any Soviet Government official come to see you or Lee after you were married, and visit with you?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. McKENZIE. Did Lee, from time to time, have to report to any Soviet Government agency after you were married?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. McKENZIE. And how often did he make a report to a government official or to a government agency?

Mrs. OSWALD. He had to go every month or every 3 months. I don't remember how often. It was either every month or every 2 or 3 and get a stamp in his residence permit.

Mr. McKENZIE. And how long would he be gone on those occasions from home, or from work?

Mrs. OSWALD. About half an hour.

Mr. McKENZIE. You have mentioned that he had Cuban friends and friends from the Argentine in Minsk. Did he ever have any Mexican friends in Minsk?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. McKENZIE. Did he ever mention to you anyone that he knew in Mexico, either from Cuba or from the Soviet Union or from any other place, any name of anyone?

Mrs. OSWALD. He might have had some, but I don't know anything about any of them. He never mentioned it.

Mr. McKENZIE. It has been reported that--in the papers--that at the time you left New Orleans, or at the time that Lee Harvey Oswald left New Orleans, that he had two books on Marxism and a fiction book written by Ian Fleming called "To Russia With Love." Do you recall seeing that book there in the apartment?

Mrs. OSWALD. I only knew about the two books on Marxism and Leninism. I don't know anything about this third one.

Mr. McKENZIE. And those books you know about, were they books from the public library in New Orleans?

Mrs. OSWALD. I think these were his own private possession. I think he had even a book in English when he was in Russia on Marxism.

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Mr. McKENZIE. After your arrival in the United States, and after you had left Fort Worth, and had moved into your own apartment, did your husband have any money?

Mrs. OSWALD. When he left Dallas for Fort Worth?

Mr. McKENZIE. Yes.

Mrs. OSWALD. I think he had some money saved up. He always was saving money for a rainy day.

(At this point, Representative Ford withdrew from the hearing room.)

Mr. McKENZIE. From what source did he save that money? Where did the money come from?

Mrs. OSWALD. Only from his salary, from his wages.

Mr. McKENZIE. When he was not working, did he have any other source of money, or did he have money?

Mrs. OSWALD. When he wasn't working, he got some unemployment compensation from the place where he had been working.

Mr. MCKENZIE. Did he ever receive money to your knowledge from any other sources, other than from the Government or from his work?

Mrs. OSWALD. The only sources I know of were the companies where he worked.

Mr. McKENZIE. Who did your husband consider as good friends of his in Dallas, Tex.?

Mrs. OSWALD. He was most friendly with George De Mohrenschildt. However, this is not a very nice thing to say for Mr. De Mohrenschildt's reputation. This has been--had a harmful effect on Mr. De Mohrenschildt's reputation as a result of the assassination, the fact that he was friendly with my husband.

Mr. McKENZIE. Did your husband have any other good friends? For example, did he consider Michael Paine a good friend of his?

Mrs. OSWALD. No; he didn't like Michael Paine. Therefore, I was surprised when they went to this meeting together. Perhaps they became friends after this. But it didn't seem so to me. He didn't show it to me.

Mr. McKENZIE. Did your husband ever give you money or did you ever handle money in caring for the household, or did he take care of the money?

Mrs. OSWALD. He never gave me any money. We would go shopping together, and he would make all the payments.

Mr. McKENZIE. Were there not times when you didn't have enough money and food in the house, and friends had to help you?

Mrs. OSWALD. It never happened that there was no food in the house and that friends had to help us. The only time when this might have been the case was immediately after our arrival in the United States, when I gave some Russian lessons to Mr. Gregory and his son, and he paid me for it. And once after we arrived Mr. George Bouhe saw that I was rather thin and took us to a grocery store and bought us a lot of stuff.

Mr. McKENZIE. And did Mr. George Bouhe or Mrs. Ford have to take you to the hospital at one time or another?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. McKENZIE. For June?

Mrs. OSWALD. Not Mrs. Ford and not Mr. Bouhe.

Mr. McKENZIE. Who was it?

Mrs. OSWALD. Lydia Dymitruk took me to the hospital.

Mr. McKENZIE. That is all I have, Mr. Chief Justice.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Mrs. Oswald, I think that will be all.

Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Chief Justice, before we close for the day I do have one request I would like to make of the Commission on the record.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Mr. McKENZIE. On behalf of Mrs. Oswald, I would like to have returned to her the original or original copies of all letters which she has previously furnished to the Commission, diaries, pictures, or any personal property of Lee Harvey Oswald that was presented to the Commission, including his personal effects and his diary, in particular his wedding ring, a watch, belt buckles, or any personal effects belonging to either Lee Harvey Oswald or Mrs. Oswald that have been presented as original exhibits to the Commission.

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The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will consider that in connection with all other things that you asked for in connection with her writings.

Mr. MCKENZIE. And may I respectfully ask this. In the Commission's consideration of our request, in connection with the original instruments or documents, or whatever it may be, do you at this time have any idea how long it would be before the Commission would decide?

The CHAIRMAN. Well, I think----

Mr. McKENZIE. Mind you, I ask that as respectfully as I possibly can.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, I answer you as well as I can. We are driving to conclude the work of the Commission, and we believe that it will be completed, in the next month--we hope so, anyway.

Mr. McKENZIE. Of course she has no objection whatsoever for the Commission to have the documents which it now has as long as the originals are returned to her.

The CHAIRMAN. We will give consideration to that, because there are some things that are evidence here, that belonged to him, that perhaps will have to remain evidence. I can't make any analysis of all of those things at the present time. But, for instance, let us say, the gun.

Mr. McKENZIE. We want that, too.

The CHAIRMAN. I say, we will give consideration to that. But I cannot give you any assurance of it at this time.

Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chief Justice, I would like to have the record show at this point--we have no objection to what you propose and say we should do about supplying new copies of material, but I don't want the record to indicate we took their copies away from them, because we understand their manager and former counsel kept the copies or the originals, and have them. So that we are not just taking them for ourselves. I don't want the record to appear----

Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Rankin, I would not have the record reflect that, either. And I say that at all times that they were voluntarily given to the Commission. And the only thing I am asking for is a return of everything Mrs. Oswald has previously furnished the Commission, with the understanding that the Commission has the copies of them--she wants the originals back. In particular, there is a wedding ring that I would like to ask the Commission to return at this time.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, these things will have to be considered, all of them, by the whole Commission, Counsel. But we will give them consideration. We won't be turning anything back today, because we want the whole Commission to see what is essential.

Mr. McKENZIE. Thank you, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. All right. I think that will be all. The Commission will adjourn.

(Whereupon, at 3:35 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)

Volume V, page 588-620

TESTIMONY OF MRS. LEE HARVEY OSWALD RESUMED

The President's Commission met at 3:20 p.m., on September 6, 1964, at the U.S. Naval Air Station, Dallas, Tex.

Present were Senator Richard Russell. presiding; Senator John Sherman Cooper, and Congressman Hale Boggs, members.

Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; Dean R. G. Storey, special counsel to the attorney general of Texas; Leon I. Gopadze and Peter P. Gregor interpreters; and John Joe Howlett, Secret Service agent.

[NOTE.--The witness, Mrs. Lee Harvey Oswald, having been previously sworn in these proceedings, testified through the interpreters as shown in this transcript as follows: *Translation is by Mr. Paul D. Gregory, interpreter; **translation is by Mr. Leon I. Gopadze, interpreter. Where the answer or a paragraph show as part of an answer has no asterisk, the answer is by the witness herself without the use of the interpreters.]

Mr. RANKIN. Senator Russell, will you swear the witness?

Senator RUSSELL. Since she is already under oath in this hearing, I assume that oath will carry over?

Mr. RANKIN. All right.

Senator RUSSELL. You understand that you have been sworn?*

Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Gregory, have you been sworn in connection with these proceedings?

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Mr. GREGORY. No.

Senator RUSSELL. Will you do it, Mr. Rankin?

Mr. RANKIN. Will you rise and raise your right hand.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony that you are going to translate of Mrs. Oswald will be truly translated?

Mr. GREGORY. To the best of my knowledge and ability, so help me God.

Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Gopadze, have you been sworn as a translator in these proceedings?

Mr. GOPADZE. No, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. Will you rise, please?

Do you solemnly swear that your translation of anything of the testimony Mrs. Oswald will be true and correct, to the best of your knowledge?

Mr. GOPADZE. I do.

Mr. RANKIN. Thank you. Mrs. Oswald, we're going to ask you rather informally a number of questions about matters that have come up that we would like to get your testimony about. Senator Russell will start, then Senator Cooper will have some, and then I'll have a few I would like to ask you about, and Representative Boggs will have some.

Representative BOGGS. I suggest we designate Senator Russell as chairman of this meeting.

Mr. RANKIN. Will you record Senator Russell, Miss Reporter, as the chairman of the meeting, please?

The REPORTER. Yes, sir.

Dean STOREY. This is Miss Oliver. She is the reporter to Judge Hughes, a Federal judge here.

Mr. RANKIN. Yes; we know her well by her reporting in other matters for us.

Senator RUSSELL. Mrs. Oswald, there may be some repetition in what we say, in the testimony that was taken in Washington, because, I among others, could not attend that hearing, so you will understand if we ask questions that are similar to those that were asked of you when you were in Washington on other occasions. *

We will try to avoid any more of that than we can help.

I have read all of your testimony. I don't mean that I recall all of it, but I read it, as well as your memoirs that were submitted to the Commission.

When you first met Lee Oswald, did he ever mention anything about politics or his political philosophy?*

*MRS. OSWALD. No.

Senator RUSSELL. Did you ever ask him his reason for coming to Russia?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. Not the first evening when we got acquainted.

Senator RUSSELL. Prior to the time that you were married to him, did you ask him his reasons for coming to Russia?*

*MRS. OSWALD. Yes.

Senator RUSSELL. Why did he say that he had come to Russia?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. He told me that the Soviet Union is the outstanding Communist country and he wanted to see it with his own eyes.

Senator RUSSELL. Well, I notice in your testimony that you said that his memoirs insofar as he claimed that he wished to be a citizen of the Soviet Union were erroneous?*

In other words, I want to continue the statement so there won't be any confusion---I'm not trying to trap her. But that he told you that he had been offered citizenship in the Soviet Union and had declined?* **

**MRS. OSWALD. Yes.

*Yes, that's what he said to me.

Senator RUSSELL. Did he give any reasons why he declined citizenship in the Soviet Union?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. The reason he gave me for declining to become a Soviet citizen was because he said that in case he did not like the way they do things in the Soviet Union, it would be easier for him to leave the country than if he did become a citizen.

Senator RUSSELL. After you were married to Lee, did he complain about the way they did things in the Soviet Union?* **

Mrs. OSWALD. What?

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Mr. GREGORY. Senator, excuse me, sir. I'm a little mixed up on your question. Would you mind to repeat that question, sir?

Senator RUSSELL. Did he ever, after their marriage, complain about conditions as he found them in the Soviet Union, or the way they did things in the Soviet Union? I believe that was the word you said she used.*

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; he did.

Senator RUSSELL. What was the subject of his complaint?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. He did not like his job. He did not like the wage scale that they paid him, not only for him but for people that were engaged in the same line of work.

*Then, he was unhappy about the restrictions that his movements were subjected to, being a noncitizen of the Soviet Union. Every 3 months he was obliged to report every 3 months or every so often----

Senator RUSSELL. Periodically?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Periodically, he had to report to a certain government institution, where they would extend his permit of residence.

Senator RUSSELL. Were there any other restrictions on his movements? If he had reported duly as he was required, could he have gone down to Kharkov or any other place that he might have wished to go? * **

*Mrs. OSWALD. Of course, in addition to restrictions imposed on his movemeats, there were other things that he was dissatisfied with in the Soviet Union.

Senator RUSSELL. Do you care to give any of those?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. He was dissatisfied with high prices for everything that he had to pay. He was dissatisfied with the quarters, living quarters that he had.

Senator RUSSELL. Do you know whether or not he had any friends that he made there in Minsk while he was living there?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Senator RUSSELL. Did most of them work in the same plant where he did or did he make other friends out in the community?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. He had many acquaintances that worked in the same place. but he had no friends. He had two friends at work, in other words, closer than acquaintances---friends--those that I know personally.

Senator RUSSELL. But none other than those that worked there in the same plant?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. There was one young man who was a friend of his, which did not work in the same plant, but was a student at the medical college.

Senator RUSSELL. Did Lee go to school while he was there in Minsk? Did he do any studying in any of the institutes?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Senator RUSSELL. He did not.

*Mrs. OSWALD. Lee wanted to attend Patrice Lumumba Institute in Moscow but his application was turned down. He was very much put out, because he told me that one of the main reasons he came to the Soviet Union was to get education. He said that after his application was turned down. He told that to me after his application was turned down.

Senator RUSSELL. Was that before or after you were married?

Mrs. OSWALD. After.

Senator RUSSELL. Now, in reading your testimony, Mrs. Oswald, I noticed that you referred to a number of foreign students who attended the institutes in Minsk, including, I believe you said, a number of Cubans. Do you know whether or not Lee Oswald was acquainted with any of those Cubans?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. I have never met these Cuban friends of his, but I do know that he and Erich; Erich is the medical student previously referred to, they had Cuban friends. What they were talking about, I do not know. I have never met him Lee was interested in Cuba and in Cuban affairs, but I don't know anything in detail, just through conversations.

Senator RUSSELL. Do you know whether he had any Cuban friends here in Texas or in New Orleans after he came back from Russia?

Mrs. OSWALD. No. [Nodding a negative response.]

Senator RUSSELL. You don't know whether he did or not?

Mrs. OSWALD. No; I don't think he had.

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Senator RUSSELL. You don't think he did. Now, you referred to the fact in your testimony about his joining some gun club or rifle club in Minsk?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Senator RUSSELL. And be purchased, I believe a rifle or he had a rifle?

*Mrs. OSWALD. By the time we got married, he already owned a rifle and he already was a member of a gun club in Minsk.

Senator RUSSELL. From your testimony I gathered that he was not very active in the gun club in carrying on with his rifle?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. No. He never went hunting except once during all the time that we lived in Minsk.

Senator RUSSELL. Did he ever discuss with you his desire to meet any high official with the Soviet Government?* **

*MRS. OSWALD. No.

Senator RUSSELL. He never did?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Senator RUSSELL. Do you know whether or not he carried on any correspondence?

Mrs. OSWALD. Excuse me----

*The only instance I recall--when we filed an application for our returning to the United States, he visited some colonel, some Soviet colonel. Aksenov [spelling] A-k-s-e-n-o-v, in order to expedite the exit visas for us. I also visited this Colonel Aksenov.

Mrs. OSWALD. I'm sorry----

*Correction. He never got to see Colonel Aksenov because when he went to discuss this questioned in the whatever office that was--he talked to some junior officer, and they would not let him have an audience with the colonel.

Senator RUSSELL. Did you go to see the colonel likewise?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Senator RUSSELL. You were both there together?

*Mrs. OSWALD. We never got to see him. I saw Colonel Aksenov later on.

Senator RUSSELL. Was he a colonel in the army or in the militia or in the police or just what? Where did he get his rank?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. He was a colonel in the MVD, which is the Administer of Internal Affairs.

Senator RUSSELL. He had to do then with the Passports. His recommendation would have had to have been lind with the passports?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. I think so. I do not know definitely, but that meeting was in the Ministry of Internal Affairs. He was not dressed in a military uniform.

Senator RUSSELL. Had you known the colonel prior to that time?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. No; he introduced himself as Colonel Aksenov.

Mr. GREGORY. When?

*Mrs. OSWALD. When I talked to him concerning these documents for exit visas. Even if he were in a uniform, I would not have known what the insignia meant.

Senator RUSSELL. If you didn't know him prior to that time, why is it you got to see him and Lee could not visit him?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. When Lee went to see Colonel Aksenov in regard to the exit visas and other documents, he could not see the colonel. Then, on another later occasion, I went to see the colonel and they let me see him, on a later occasion.

Senator RUSSELL. But you don't know why?*

Mrs. OSWALD. (no response).

Senator RUSSELL. Did any of your friends or relatives intercede with the colonel in your behalf?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. My uncle works in the MVD, but I'm sure that he did not discuss this matter of exit visas with Colonel Aksenov because I think he would have been afraid to talk about it. When my uncle knew that Lee and I were planning to go back to the United States, my uncle was afraid for his own job and for his own welfare.

Senator RUSSELL. I knew you testified before that he did not want you to come to the United States, that your uncle did not. but he was working in the same line of work as this colonel was?*

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*Mrs. OSWALD. In the same building, but not. in the same department. I believe that Colonel Aksenov knew my uncle.

Senator RUSSELL. Yes; but you didn't testify before. I believe, that your uncle would have been afraid to have helped you. You did testify that he did not want you to leave Russia? That's the way I recall it. I could be in error about that--do you know why he was afraid? Why should he have been afraid for you to leave Russia?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. My uncle never told me personally that he was afraid that something might happen to him if I went to America. but his wife, my aunt. confided in me that my uncle was afraid for his job and for his well-being if I went to America.

Senator RUSSELL. What rank did your uncle hold in the MVD? If this man was a colonel, what was your uncle, was he a colonel or a major or what?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. My uncle has a degree in forestry, but he is also a colonel in MVD. Every employee has to be in the service, in the military service. He has a degree in forestry, but he is also a colonel in MVD.

Senator RUSSELL. He also has the rank of a colonel in the MVD?*

Mrs. OSWALD. No. He is the head of the forestry department in MVD. I don't know what he is doing there.

Senator RUSSELL. Did you ever have any occasion or know any other Russian wife of a foreigner who tried to leave Russia?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. Mrs. Zeger. Mrs. Zeger and her husband lived in Argentina for 25 years----

Senator RUSSELL. Well, you testified very fully about them. But I am asking now if you know of any Russian national or citizen who was married to a foreign national who ever was able to get a visa to leave from Russia?

*Mrs. OSWALD. No; I don't know--I don't know of anyone. I only heard in the American Embassy in Moscow, where I heard of a Russian woman married to an American, who had difficulty leaving the count.

Senator RUSSELL. Well, that's what I had in mind.

*Mrs. OSWALD. Therefore, to the very last moment we did not believe that they would let us out of the Soviet Union.

Senator RUSSELL. Did they examine you very much or ask you many questions about why you wished to leave, other than the fact that your husband decided to return to the United States?*

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

*No. We only filled out a proper questionnaire containing a statement that this will be a permanent residence in the United State or leaving the Soviet Union for permanent residence in the United States.

Senator RUSSELL. And none of the officials or police examined you at all about your reason for wishing to leave?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. It's very surprising, but nobody did.

Senator RUSSELL. Do you know as to whether or not Lee corresponded with any of his friends in Russia after he came back to this country?*

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

*He did.

Mrs. OSWALD. With Mr. and Mrs. Zeger.

*With Mr. and Mrs. Zeger, and Erich; the medical student. I don't recall the medical student, and Pavel Golovachev.

Senator RUSSELL. Paul--he was one of your old boy friends, wasn't he?

Mrs. OSWALD. Paul?

Senator RUSSELL. I thought one of them was named Paul?*

Mrs. OSWALD (no response).

Senator RUSSELL. Did he correspond very frequently?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. Not often.

Senator RUSSELL. Did you write very often to your family and friends in Russia?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. I wrote several letters shortly after we came to America, but I never received any answer. I also wrote to some of my colleagues where I worked.

Senator RUSSELL. In Minsk?

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*Mrs. OSWALD. And shortly after that, my aunt wrote me. Then I understood that perhaps the letters I wrote my aunt never reached her.

Senator RUSSELL. She did not refer to your letters when she wrote to you?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. No; the only thing that she wrote, she was glad to get--that she learned my address.

Senator RUSSELL. Did she say how she learned it? That was my next question?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. The supervisory of a drugstore, an apothecary----

Senator RUSSELL. An apothecary?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Or manager of a drugstore telephoned my aunt and told her she received a letter from me.

Senator RUSSELL. But she did not answer that letter, or if she did, you didn't receive it?

Mrs. OSWALD. No---she answered this letter.

Senator RUSSELL. I understand, but the friend in the apothecary, did he answer?*

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Senator RUSSELL. Now, in some of your testimony you referred to a time when you became somewhat piqued with Lee about something and wrote one of your old friends there and forgot to put the stamp or didn't know that the stamps had been increased--you recall that testimony, do you not?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Senator RUSSELL. Did you write to any of your other friends there and put the proper stamps on them?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. No; this was the only letter I wrote.

Senator RUSSELL. The only one you wrote?

*Mrs. OSWALD. This was the only letter I wrote after I found out the proper postage required for mailing letters. After that, my aunt never wrote me.

Senator RUSSELL. Have you corresponded with your uncle or aunt at any time since this great tragedy?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; I did.

Senator RUSSELL. And did you receive any reply?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Senator RUSSELL. Have you written them more than once since this great tragedy?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember exactly whether I did or not.

Senator RUSSELL. But you've written them at least once without receiving a reply?

*Mrs. OSWALD. I remember well that I wrote at least once, maybe it was twice or three times, but I don't remember.

Senator RUSSELL. Has any official of the Russian Government communicated with you since this great tragedy?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. No; no one ever communicated with me from the Soviet Embassy or any other representative of the Soviet Government, and I felt rather bad about it, because there I was--all alone in a strange country and I did not receive any encouragement from anyone. They didn't approach me even as a show of interest in my well-being.

Senator RUSSELL. You didn't even hear from them with reference to your application for visas to return to Russia, although you had heard from them prior to the time Lee was killed?* **

*Mrs. OSWALD. Not after Lee was killed.

Senator RUSSELL. Now, if I've understood it from reading your testimony, Mrs. Oswald, Lee went to Mexico from New Orleans a day or two after Mrs. Paine brought you back to Texas, is that right?

*Mrs. OSWALD. I do not know definitely, but I believe Mrs. Paine and I left one day before he went to Mexico.

Senator RUSSELL. He had talked to you about going to Mexico, had he not?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; he had told me he was going to Mexico.

Senator RUSSELL. And he had told you that he intended to visit the Russian Embassy and the Cuban consulate while he was there?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

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Senator RUSSELL. And that was at a time when he was very anxious to get to Cuba, I believe?

MRS. OSWALD. Yes.

Senator RUSSELL. When was it, Mrs. Oswald, that Lee told you he thought it was best for you to go back to Russia, as to time? I know you testified he told you that, but was that after the Walker case or before the Walker case?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. I believe it was before he made the attempt on General Walker's life. It may be that I stated it differently in my deposition, but I believe it was before. Lee insisted on my returning to the Soviet Union before the attempt on Walker's life.

Senator RUSSELL. I gather from your evidence, Mrs. Oswald, that Lee was a very devoted husband, unusually so for an American husband, even though you had little spats at times. Do you think that he advised you that because he thought something was going to happen that would involve the family in difficulties?*

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Senator RUSSELL You don't think so?

*Mrs. OSWALD. No; he was not a good husband. I may have said so in my deposition, but if I did, it was when I was in a state of shock.

Senator RUSSELL. You not only said so in your deposition, Mrs. Oswald, but you testified in your testimony before the Commission several times that he was a very good husband and he was very devoted to you, and that when he was at home and not employed that he did a great deal of the housework and in looking after the children?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Well, I also testified to the fact that he beat me on many occasions, so some of the statements I made regarding him were good and some were bad.

Senator RUSSELL. In other words, some of them were not true that you made?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. No; everything was true.

Senator RUSSELL. Everything was true?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

*I made statements in the record that he was good when he did housework and washed the floors and was good to the baby, and again, he was not good when he beat me and was insolent.

Senator RUSSELL. Did he beat you on many occasions?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. Rather---many.

Senator RUSSELL. Well, you only testified to one, did you not, before the Commission?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. I was rather embarrassed to discuss this before the Commission, but he beat me on more than on one occasion.

Senator RUSSELL. And you stated at that time that you bruise very readily and that's the reason you had such a bad black eye? Did you not testify to that?* **

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Senator RUSSELL. Was that true or not true?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. It is true it is--whatever I said.

Senator RUSSELL. It is true that you bruise easily, but that was just one of many occasions he had beat you?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. On one occasion; yes.

Senator RUSSELL. But you didn't testify to the others, did you?

*Mrs. OSWALD. I think I testified only about one particular occasion that I was asked about, whether he beat me or not, and I replied that he did, but he beat me on more than one occasion.

Senator RUSSELL. Did he ever fail to provide for you and the children?*

Mrs. OSWALD. No----

*While he never earned too much, but when he had the job and earned, say, around $200 a month, we never had any particular need of anything. However, Lee was so frugal, not only frugal, but he kept part of the money in his own possession all the time that was not available for the family.

Senator RUSSELL. You always had plenty to eat and the children had plenty to wear?

Mrs. OSWALD. Not really.

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*We were never hungry, but we didn't have much. We were never too hungry. but we never had any plentitude. We never had too much, and I wanted---I always wanted this and that, but that was not available.

Senator RUSSELL. But he never made a great deal of money, did he?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. I marvel now how we managed to live on what he earned at that time in comparison with what I have now. We spent $12 or $15 a week at that time.

We spent $12 or $15 a week at that time--you know, we can live that was for milk and so on.

Senator RUSSELL. He didn't spent any money on himself, did he, he wasn't extravagant in his own habits? He didn't spend his money on clothes or whisky or women or things of that kind, did he?

Mrs. OSWALD. Oh, no. He told--somebody told about Jack Ruby--he went to his nightclub, he never did go to nightclub.

Senator RUSSELL. Well, I mean just extravagance in his own habits--he was frugal in his own eating habits, he didn't eat much when he was away from home, did he?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Senator RUSSELL. You knew where he kept his money in your home, did you not?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. He had a black wallet, but I never ventured into it.

Senator RUSSELL. Did he not tell you to take some of the money out of the wallet at one time and buy some clothes for the children and yourself?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. GOPADZE. Pardon--you don't understand the question?**

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; he did. It was the morning before the tragedy.

Senator RUSSELL. Before the assassination of the President?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Senator RUSSELL. Did he ever talk to you about the result of his visit to Mexico?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Senator RUSSELL. Did he say his efforts were all a failure there, that he got any assistance that he was seeking?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. He told me that he visited the Cuban Embassy and the Soviet Embassy and that they have the same bureaucracy in the Cuban Embassy that they have in the Soviet Embassy and that he obtained no results.

Senator RUSSELL. Did you have less money in the United States than you had in Russia when you were married over there?

*Mrs. OSWALD. We had more money in the United States than we did in the Soviet Union, but here we have to pay $65 a month rent from $200 earned, and we didn't have to do that in the Soviet Union. Here the house rent amounted to 30 percent of total wages earned, while in the Soviet Union we paid 10 percent of the wages earned. Then, all the medical expenses, medical assistance expenses are paid there. However, Lee didn't spend much money on medical expenses here because he found ways to get the expenses free; the services free.

Senator RUSSELL. You have testified, I believe, that Lee didn't use his rifle much, the one he had in the Soviet Union. Did he ever discuss shooting anyone in the Soviet Union like he did in shooting Nixon and Walker here in this country?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. No; not in the Soviet Union.

Senator RUSSELL. You haven't then heard from anyone except one letter from your aunt, since you left Russia?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. No; I received letters from my girl friend.

Senator RUSSELL. Oh, how many letters from your girl friend?

Mrs. OSWALD. Just from one---a Christmas card---I don't remember how many, probably not more than four or five.

*But only one letter from the aunt.

*Mrs. OSWALD. We received letters from Lee's friends written to both of us--several letters.

Senator RUSSELL. Written to you?

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*Mrs. OSWALD. Written to Lee and to me.

Senator RUSSELL. I see, but it's strange about your family that you didn't hear from them when you had written to them?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. It is strange and it's hurtful.

Senator RUSSELL. Mrs. Oswald, I believe you testified that Lee didn't ever discuss political matters with you very much?

*Mrs. OSWALD. He discussed politics with me very little.

Senator RUSSELL. And that when he was discussing political matters with Mr. Paine and Mr. De Mohrenschildt and others, that you didn't pay any attention, that they didn't address any of it to you, that they discussed it between themselves?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. No; I did not participate in those conversations.

Senator RUSSELL. And that he didn't discuss a great many things about his work and things of that kind with you?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. The only time he discussed his work with me was when he worked for a printing company. He told me that he liked that job.

Senator RUSSELL. Why do you suppose he told you about the fact that he was going to shoot Mr. Nixon and had shot at General Walker?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. As regards General Walker, he came home late. He left me a note and so that is the reason why he discussed the Walker affair with me.

*Now, in regard to Mr. Nixon, he got dressed up in his suit and he put a gun in his belt.

Senator RUSSELL. You testified in his belt--I was going to ask about that, because that was a very unusual place to carry a gun. Usually, he would carry it in his coat. Did you ever see him have a gun in his belt before?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. No; I would have noticed it if he did.

Senator RUSSELL. You wouldn't have noticed it?

*Mrs. OSWALD. I would have noticed it if he did.

Senator RUSSELL. I see---you would have noticed it.

*Mrs. OSWALD. And so--I have never seen him before with the pistol.

Senator RUSSELL. He didn't state to you that he talked to any person in Mexico other than at the Russian Embassy and the Cuban Embassy?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. No. The only persons he mentioned were the Cuban Embassy and the Soviet Embassy in Mexico.

Senator RUSSELL. Now, going back to your personal relations, Mrs. Oswald, with Lee. Do you think he wanted to send you back to Russia just to get rid of you?

*Mrs. OSWALD. This is the question that I am puzzled about and I am wondering about it myself, whether he wanted to get rid of me.

Senator RUSSELL. Do you think he was really devoted to the children or was he just putting on a show about liking the children?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; he loved the children.

*I believe he loved the children, but at times--one side of his life was such that I wondered whether he did or not. Some of the things that he did certainly were not good for his children--some of the acts he was engaged in.

Senator RUSSELL. He knew you would take the children back to Russia with you, if you wanted, did he not?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. Of course I would have taken the children with me to the Soviet Union.

Senator RUSSELL. It seems to me that I recall once or twice in this testimony when you had had some little domestic trouble, as all married couples have, that he had cried, which is most unusual for a man in this country--men don't cry very often, and do you think that he cried despite the fact that he wasn't very devoted to you and loved you a great deal?* **

*Mrs. OSWALD. The fact that he cried, and on one occasion he begged me to come back to him--he stood on his knees and begged me to come back to him--whether that meant that he loved me--perhaps he did. On the other hand, the acts that he committed showed to me that he didn't particularly care for me.

Senator RUSSELL. You think then that his acts that he committed outside your domestic life within the family, within the realm of the family, was an indication that he did not love you?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. The fact that he made attempts on the lives of other people

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showed to me that he did not treasure his family life and his children also the fact that he beat me and wanted to send me to the Soviet Union.

Senator RUSSELL. And you think that the fact that he promised you after the Walker incident that he would never do anything like that again but did, is an indication that he didn't love you?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. Logically--yes. That shows to me that he did not love me. At times he cried, and did all sorts of helpful things around the house. At other times he was mean. Frankly, I am lost as to what to think about him.

And I did not have any choice, because he was the only person that I knew and I could count on--the only person in the United States.

Senator RUSSELL. Did he beat you very often, Mrs. Oswald, strike you hard blows with his fists? Did he hit you with his fists?* **

*Mrs. OSWALD. When he beat me, sometimes he would beat me hard and sometimes not too hard. Sometimes he would leave a black eye and sometimes he wouldn't, depending on which part of me he would strike me. When we lived in New Orleans he never beat me up.

Senator RUSSELL. Did he ever beat you in Russia before you came to this country? *

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Senator RUSSELL. Had you ever heard of any husband striking his wife in Russia? *

*Mrs. OSWALD. It seems that beating of wives by the Russian husbands is a rather common thing in the Soviet Union and that is why I was afraid to marry a Russian.

Senator RUSSELL I see. Do they beat them with anything other than their hands?

There was a law in my State at one time that a man could whip his wife as long as he didn't use a switch that was larger than his thumb. That law has been repealed.

But, did they ever whip their wives with anything other than their hands in Russia?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. I do not know. I was not interested in what manner they beat their wives.

Senator RUSSELL. That's difficult for me to believe that a very charming and attractive girl who was being courted by a number of men, I would have thought you would have been greatly interested in all the aspects of matrimony?* **

*Mrs. OSWALD. How would I know?

Senator RUSSELL. How would you know it--well, by general conversation. Don't people talk about those things all over the world--in Russia and everywhere else?

Mrs. OSWALD. That's different there.

Senator RUSSELL. People are very much the same, aren't they, all over the world? If a man in the neighborhood gets drunk and beats and abuses his wife and children, isn't that discussed by all the people in the block--in that area?

Mrs. OSWALD. **Sometimes during a life of 20 years with a husband, everything will be all right, and then some occasion will arise or something will happen that the wife will learn about what kind of person he is.

*I know of one family in the Soviet Union in Minsk, where a husband was married to a woman 17 years, and he just went to another woman.

For 1 year.

*For 1 year--then he came back to the first one full of shame and repentance and he cried and she took him back in. He lived with her for 3 days and then left her again. He was excluded from the party.

Senator RUSSELL. Excommunicated from the party?

Mrs. OSWALD. **Expelled from the party.

*But he took all the possessions of their common property when he left.

Senator RUSSELL. I'm taking too much time, and I will hurry along. Did he ever beat you badly enough, Mrs. Oswald, for you to require the services of a doctor, a physician?*

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Senator RUSSELL. Did he ever strike you during your pregnancy, when you were pregnant?*

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*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. GOPADZE. She said, "I think." She said, "I think."

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; he did strike me.

Senator RUSSELL. What reason did he give for striking you. usually?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. Well, the reasons were if--they were very petty--I can't even remember what the reasons were after this quarrel was over. Sometimes he would tell me to shut up, and I don't take that from him.

**I'm not a very quiet woman myself.

Senator RUSSELL. "I'm not--" what?

**Mrs. OSWALD. I'm not a quiet woman myself and sometimes it gets on your nerves and you'll just tell him he's an idiot and he will become more angry with you.

*Enraged. When I would call him an idiot, he would say, "Well, I'll show you what kind of an idiot I am," so he would beat me up.

Senator RUSSELL. Did you ever strike him?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. I would give him some in return.

Senator RUSSELL. You would give him some in return.

As I recall your testimony, when he told you about the Nixon incident, you testified that you held him in the bathroom by physical strength for some 4 or 5 minutes, so you should have been able to hold your own pretty well with him if you could do that?* **

Mrs. OSWALD. Probably not 5 minutes, but a long time for him.

*Sometimes one can gather all of his strength in a moment like that. I not a strong person, but sometimes under stress and strain perhaps I am stronger than I ordinarily am.

Senator RUSSELL. Did you ever strike him with anything other than your hand?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. Well, I think at one time I told him that if he would beat me again, I will hurl a radio, a transistor radio, and when he did strike me, I threw the radio at him.

Senator RUSSELL. You missed him?

*Mrs. OSWALD. No--it broke. I missed him.

Senator RUSSELL. Yes, she missed him.

*Mrs. OSWALD. I tried not to hit him.

Senator RUSSELL. Now, going back a moment or two to your uncle, whom you lived with and to whom I understand you are quite devoted--did he try to keep you from coming to the United States very vigorously?

*Mrs. OSWALD. My uncle was against my going to America, but he never imposed his will or his opinion on me.

Senator RUSSELL. Did he or any other members of your family ever tell you why you had such little difficulty in getting your passport approved?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. During the pendency of receiving this exit visa, we never discussed the question, my uncle and my aunt, but when we received it, the exit visa and it was granted to us so quickly, they were very much surprised.

Mr. GOPADZE. Now, Marina, I'm sorry. I would like to make a correction to that point.

Mr. GREGORY. All right.

Mr. GAPADZE. That during the time they were expecting a visa to depart the Soviet Union, the relatives didn't express too much about it--because they didn't [think] they would depart, and when they did receive it, they were very much surprised----

Mr. GREGORY. Correct.

Mr. GOPADZE. With the expediency of the visa. Therefore, they didn't bother asking any questions or into their affairs concerning the departure. The last time they visited their aunt and uncle, they say, "Oh of all places, you're going to the United States."

Senator RUSSELL. Lee never did make much more than $225 a month, in that area, did he, and he was unemployed almost as much as he was employed?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Senator RUSSELL. How did he manage to pay the State Department the money he had borrowed from them and to pay his brother Robert under those circumstances?*

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*Mrs. OSWALD. He paid those debts out of his earnings. The first few weeks when we came to the United States, we lived with his mother, and that gave us the opportunity to pay the debts.

Senator RUSSELL. Well, you only lived with Mrs. Oswald a matter of 3 or 4 weeks, didn't you?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; but he was earning money during that time.

Senator RUSSELL. I understand, but he was not earning more than $200 a month, was he, and he paid four or five or six-- what was it, Mr. Rankin?

Mr. RANKIN. It was over $400.

Senator RUSSELL. Over $450 or more to the State Department and some amount to his brother Robert.

Mrs. OSWALD. Around $100.

*It was $100.

It was probably $100.

Senator RUSSELL. That's $550, and a person that's earning $200 a month part of the time, and having to support a family, that's a rather remarkable feat, isn't it, of financing?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. I think that at the time we were leaving Russia, some of the rubles were exchanged for dollars, and maybe he kept part of that money, of which I have no knowledge, when we arrived in the United States. The only thing I know is that we lived very, very economically and Lee was saying all the time that the debts have to be paid as quickly as possible.

Senator RUSSELL. I was under the impression that there was a very drastic limit on the number of rubles that could be exchanged, that it was a hundred or 150 or something in that area?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. According to the law in the Soviet Union, they allow about 90 rubles per person to be exchanged into foreign currency or dollars--$180 in our case because Lee was including the baby, and she----

Senator RUSSELL. For each of them--the exchange.

Mrs. OSWALD. Not for Lee.

Senator RUSSELL. No; he couldn't bring out any more than he took in with him. Well, he wasn't a visitor, though--yes, he was a visitor then. I know they checked my money when I went in there.**

**Mrs. OswALD. I don't know the reason why they didn't allow Lee to exchange $90, but I believe that there is a Soviet law that for Soviet citizens they allow $90 for each person. Excuse me.

*I believe that a foreigner is also entitled to exchange rubles for dollars, but in a very limited amount.

Senator RUSSELL. Mrs. Oswald, do you have any plans to return to the Soviet Union, or do you intend to live in this country?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. Of course to remain in the United States.

Senator RUSSELL. I have a few other questions, but I'm already taking too much time.

Senator COOPER. I want to say something off the record.

(Conference between Senator Cooper and Senator Russell off the record.)

Representative BOGGS. I have just one question.

Senator COOPER. All right.

Senator RUSSELL. Go right ahead.

Representative BOGGS. Mrs. Oswald, have you been taking English lessons?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Representative BOGGS. Do you speak English now?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. I can't call it speaking English.

Representative BOGGS. But you understand English, you replied to my question a moment ago?**

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Representative BOGGS. But you have been speaking English, studying English, and whom do you live with now?

Mrs. OSWALD. With myself and my kids, with my neighbors.

Representative BOGGS. Do you read English?

Mrs. OSWALD. No. A little bit.

*A little bit.

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Mr. GOPADZE. Naturally, she knows the English alphabet, but she doesn't read too much.

**Sometimes I read on my own, but on the other hand, it might be entirely different for an American.

Senator RUSSELL. Well, I believe you can speak it pretty well, Mrs. Oswald. You are a very intelligent person, and I've never seen a woman yet that didn't learn a foreign language three times as fast as a man.

Mrs. OSWALD. Thank you.

Senator RUSSELL. They all do, and in some places in Russia you run into women that speak three or four languages very fluently, including in the high schools, where they have 10 or 12 years of English, starting in the first grade with it?

Mrs. OSWALD. That's the way they try--to learn it in school.

Senator RUSSELL. Is that your foreign language? I understand in Russia each student has to study some one foreign language all the way--or at least for 5 or 6 years?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; but I don't like this system of education in Russia to study some languages--well, he can speak, you know.

Senator RUSSELL. Mrs. Oswald, your attorney--your then attorney, according to the record, asked the Commission some questions about your memoirs, your diary or whatever it was that you have written--your reminiscences, and that they not be release. Have you ever made arrangements yet to sell them? Have you gotten rid of them? Because the record of the Commission will be printed at a rather early date?* **

*Mrs. OSWALD. I do not want these memoirs to be published by Warren Commission.

Senator RUSSELL. Yes; I understand that.

*Mrs. OSWALD. I am now working on a book and I may wish to include these memoirs in that book. I have no objection to the publication of the material in those memoirs that have any relation to the assassination of the President, or anything that is pertinent to this particular inquiry.

Senator RUSSELL. Of course, a great deal of it is very personal. It's about your social relations when you were a young woman. Of course, you are a young woman now, but when you were even younger than you are now, and the friends that you had, and things of that nature, and this report is going to be published before too long. And that's among the evidence there, and I was trying to get some timing on your book or whatever it is you are going to publish that would utilize this material, in an effort to help you--that is the only purpose I had, to try to see that you don't lose the publicity value of the memoirs.*

*Mrs. OSWALD. I understand that and I'm certainly grateful you for it.

**Would it be possible to publish in the report only parts of my life, that pertaining to the assassination, instead of my private life?

Senator RUSSELL. I cannot answer that, and only the entire Commission could answer that, but when I read that in the testimony, I was hoping that you had found some means of commercializing on it either to the moving picture people or to the publishing world.

Mrs. OSWALD. As yet, I have not availed myself of that opportunity, sir.

Senator RUSSELL. When do you think you will publish this book?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. The publisher will possibly publish the book toward the end of December, maybe in January and even perhaps----

Mr. GOPADZE. Not the publisher. The person who writes the story is hoping to be able to finish it in the latter part of December.

Senator RUSSELL. Of course, it goes into much more detail, I'm sure, than this sketch we have, because this wouldn't be anything like a book. It would be more of a magazine article.

**Mrs. OSWALD. Would it be possible to delete it from the Commission's report?

Senator RUSSELL. I can't answer that because I'm not the whole Commission.**

Very frankly, I think the Commission would be disposed to publish all the material that they have, is my own honest view about it. The reason I am discussing it with you is to find out if you have done anything about it. Of

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course, if you are writing a whole book, it won't be so important, just this one phase of it.

Mrs. Oswald, during the course of your testimony, you testified that Lee often called you twice a day while he was working away from home.

Why do you think he called you if he was not in love with you?* **

*Mrs. OSWALD. When he was away from me, he told me that he missed me.

Senator RUSSELL You don't think that's an indication that he loved you?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. This shows--this would show that he loved me. He was a dual personality.

Senator RUSSELL. Split personality.

Mrs. OSWALD. Split personality--that's it.

Senator RUSSELL. Mrs. Oswald, I noticed that one of the witnesses, I've forgotten which one it was, that ran the boarding house where Lee lived, testified that he called someone every night and talked to them at some length in a foreign language. That couldn't have been anyone except you, could it, that he was calling?* **

*Mrs. OSWALD. I believe that I was the person he talked to.

Senator RUSSELL. He did call you quite frequently, did he not when you were in Irving and he was in Dallas, for example?

Mrs. OSWALD. Every day.

Senator RUSSELL. But he didn't call you to abuse you over the phone, did he?* **

*Mrs. OSWALD. Of course not.

Senator RUSSELL It was the ordinary small talk you would have between a man and his wife--he would ask you about how the children were--one of them--was?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. He always talked about our daughter June.

Senator RUSSELL Did he ever say anything about, "I love you" or anything like that over the phone?**

Mrs. OSWALD. (no response).

Mr. GOPADZE. Did he? **

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Senator RUSSELL He did?

*Mrs. OSWALD. He did.

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Senator RUSSELL. I thought the FBI had already removed your passports and your diploma and everything before that time?

*Mrs. OSWALD. The first day when Lee was arrested, the FBI made a search.

Mr. GOPADZE. The FBI or police.

Mr. GREGORY. The FBI or police.

Senator RUSSELL. I believe it was the police then.

*Mrs. OSWALD. The police made the search in the Paine's house.

Senator RUSSELL. Yes.

Mrs. OSWALD. And everything was there. I did not take anything with me that first day when I was arrested.

Senator RUSSELL. When you returned to Mrs. Paine's you found they had left this particular program there with this bus stub? You testified they had removed your passport and your diploma and Lee's union cards and Social Security card and everything else I was just wondering how they happened to leave this particular article with the bus stub in it?*

Mrs. OSWALD. **I never retained that for any special reason.

Senator RUSSELL. I'm quite sure of that. I wasn't asking that at all.**

Mrs. OSWALD. **I don't know the reason.

Senator RUSSELL. They just overlooked that?

Mrs. OSWALD. **It was just overlooked--the same way they overlooked that other.

Senator RUSSELL. Mrs. Oswald, what are your relations now with the friends that you made in the Russian community here in Dallas? I don't remember all of the names--one of them was named Elena Hall, is that right, and Katya Ford, Anna Meller, De Mohrenschildt, De Mohrenschildt's wife and children--are you still on friendly terms with them, do you see them occasionally?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. As far as I'm concerned, I consider all of them as my friends, but George Bouhe, and Katya Ford are the only two people that come to visit me. Others perhaps feel that it is not healthy for them to come to see me.

Senator RUSSELL. I wondered if they had expressed their opinion or whether they were afraid of you on account of publicity contamination?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. No, they never said that to me personally that they are afraid to come to see me. When we meet in the church, they are all very pleasant to me, but they never invite me.

Mr. GOPADZE. No.

**Mrs. OSWALD. Sometimes they invite Katya Ford, but they never invite me. Nataska Krassovska is very nice to me.

Senator RUSSELL When was the first time you ever heard of Jack Ruby or Jack Rubenstein?*

Mrs. OSWALD. When he killed him.

Senator RUSSELL. You had never heard of him until that time?

Mrs. OSWALD. (Nodding a negative response.)

Senator RUSSELL. That's all.

Senator COOPER. What is your address now, Mrs. Oswald, and with whom do you live?

Mrs. OSWALD. 629 Belt Line Road, Richardson, Tex.

Senator COOPER. Does someone live with you or do you live with someone?

Mrs. OSWALD. No; I live by myself with my children.

Senator COOPER. After the death of your husband, you had a lawyer, Mr. Thorne, and a business agent, Mr. Martin, and they were discharged. Was there any particular reason for discharging them?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. I got rid of them because the contract that they prepared was unfair to me, and it was prepared at a time when I did not understand it and when it was not translated to me.

Senator COOPER. Now, you later employed Mr. McKenzie as your attorney and you have since discharged him, haven't you?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. I employed Mr. McKenzie to wind up the affair with Mr. Martin and Mr. Thorne, and he was not employed on any other basis--just for that particular thing.

**Not permanently.

*Not permanently--just for that particular thing, despite the fact that he did give advice on other business of mine. Of course, I needed an attorney

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in my dealings with the Commission that's what he told me that I needed an attorney to deal with the Commission.

Mr. GOPADZE. She said----

Mr. RANKIN. She said more than that.

**Mrs. OSWALD. Now, as I feel now, I don't need any lawyer before the Commission.

Senator COOPER. If you'll just answer my question now: Do you have a lawyer to represent you now?*

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Senator COOPER. Who is your business agent?

Mrs. OSWALD. Mrs. Katya Ford.

Senator COOPER. Can you tell the Commission about how much money has been donated to you or how much you have earned through contracts?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. I do not know at this time how much money I have.

Senator COOPER. Approximately?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. Donations were $57,000, from which twelve and one-half thousand plus expenses were paid to Martin and Thorne, and $15,000 to Mr. McKenzie.

Senator COOPER. Do you have any contracts, have you made any contracts for the sale of your writings which may be payable in the future?*

** Mrs. OSWALD. The publishing company contract with me is all.

**I have not signed any contracts with the publishing company, except I have already signed several contracts with Life Magazine. After the diary was published.

**After the diary was published.

Senator COOPER. That's for $20,000?

Mrs. OSWALD. $20,000 plus $1,000 for Parade Magazine, and one girl--Helen--I don't know her last name, I know we did----

**Also, I signed-I agreed with a girl by the name of Helen--I cannot remember her last name, for possible future stories Helen might write.

We have interview.

Senator COOPER. You testified that your uncle is an official and a Colonel in the MVD?* ** And, a member of the Communist Party, is that correct?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Senator COOPER. Do you know that any other members of your family are members of the Communist Party?* **

*Mrs. OSWALD. The husband of another aunt.

Senator COOPER. Is that the aunt you visited from time to time?* **

**Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Senator COOPER. At Kharkov?

Mrs. OSWALD. At Minsk.

Senator COOPER. With whom did you file your declaration for an exit visa?***

Mrs. OSWALD. There is a special institution in Minsk where prospective departees filed application for exit visa. They leave the application in that institution, and that institution transmits it to Moscow where the decision is made whether to grant or to deny the exit permit. The reply then comes to the MVD in Minsk.

*I want to assure the Commission that I was never given any assignment by the Soviet Government or the American Government, and that I was so surprised myself that I got the exit visa.

Senator COOPER. When you talked to Colonel Aksenov, what did he tell you when you asked him about the exit visa?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. When I went to see Colonel Aksenov, I went to ask him about the state in which my application is for exit visa, and he replied----

Mr. GOPADZE. No. "Was it favorable or not," and he said it was favorable.

Mr. GREGORY. Yes, and he said----

Mr. GOPADZE. That it takes official process of getting the answer.

*Mrs. OSWALD. He said, "You are not the only one who is seeking exit permit, and so you have to wait your turn."

Senator COOPER. Did he attempt to discourage you from seeking the exit visa?

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Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Senator COOPER. Did Lee Oswald ever express any opinion to you as to why he thought an exit visa might be granted to you and your daughter?

*Mrs. OSWALD. He encouraged me and he thought that I would consider that he exerted every effort on his part for me to get this exit. Maybe he just was saying that that way, but never hoped that actually I would get the exit permit.

Senator COOPER. During that time or at any other time, did Lee ever say to you, that he might do some work for the Soviet Union if you did return to the United States?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. He did not.

Senator COOPER. I would like to turn to your testimony about your knowledge of the rifle that Lee possessed. Now, as I remember your testimony, you stated that you first learned that he had the rifle early in 1963.*

*Mrs. OSWALD. In the year that he bought it, I learned it.

Senator COOPER. You had seen him clean it, you had watched him sight the rifle in New Orleans and work the bolt?* **

Mr. GREGORY. In New Orleans?

Senator COOPER. Yes; in your testimony, you said you saw him sitting on the little back porch----

Mrs. OSWALD. On the little back porch--yes.

Senator COOPER. And sight the rifle?

*Mrs. OSWALD. I'm sorry, I might be mixed up.

Senator COOPER. When you testified that you believed he did some target practice at least a few times?

*Mrs. OSWALD. In Dallas or New Orleans?* **

*Yes; when we lived on Neely Street.

Senator COOPER. He told you that he had used this rifle to fire at General Walker?*

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Senator COOPER. He told you he had threatened Vice President Nixon, you had said?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. He did not say "Vice President Nixon," he just said, "Nixon."

Senator COOPER. Now, was it your opinion throughout these months that he was keeping this rifle for his purpose of using it again, firing at some individual, perhaps an official of the United States Government?*

** Mrs. OSWALD. **He never expressed himself.

*When the assassination of President Kennedy took place, I was asking people whether--people in general--whether General Walker was with President Kennedy. It perhaps was a silly question, but I thought that he----

Senator COOPER. Listen to my question: During this time, didn't you have the opinion that he was keeping possession of this rifle and practicing with it for the purpose of using it to shoot at some individual, and perhaps an official of the United States Government?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. I never thought--I was afraid to think that he would do anything like that until the shooting of General Walker occurred.

Senator COOPER. But now my question. After that--the continued possession----* **

**Mrs. OSWALD. After the attempting of the killing of General Walker, I thought he might do it, but I didn't visualize that he could do anything like that.

Senator COOPER. When you testified before the Commission, you said--generally-you didn't think Lee would repeat anything like that--"Generally, I knew that the rifle was very-tempting for him".

“Very tempting for him"--what did you mean by that, about the rifle being very tempting for him? Did you believe he might be tempted to shoot at someone else?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; I was afraid that he did have temptation to kill someone else.

Senator COOPER. Mrs. Oswald, you testified that when you talked to Lee after he had shot at General Walker, or told you he had shot at General Walker, he said that it would have been well if someone had killed Hitler because many lives would be saved, is that correct?

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Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Senator COOPER After that, you testified that many times or a number of times he read you articles about President Kennedy?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Senator COOPER. And said at one time, discussing President Kennedy's father that he had made his money through wine and he had a great deal of money, and that enabled him to educate his sons and to give them a start.

I want you to remember and tell the Commission if he did ever express any hatred or dislike for President Kennedy. You have several times--not changed--but you have told the Commission things you did not tell them when first asked.

Now, if he did speak to you about President Kennedy, we think you should tell the Commission?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. I don't think he ever expressed hatred toward President Kennedy, but perhaps he expressed jealousy, not only jealousy, but envy, but perhaps he envied, because he said, "Whoever has money has it easy." That was his general attitude. It was not a direct quotation.

Representative BOGGS. Pursuing this--I asked you that very question in Washington back in February, and the answer was "No." I asked you whether or not your husband ever expressed hostility toward President Kennedy--is your answer still "No"?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. My answer is "No."

**He never expressed himself anything against President Kennedy, anything detrimental toward him. What I told them generally before, I am repeating now too.

Representative BOGGS. Did he ever indicate to you, except in the Walker situation where he said he'd shot at General Walker, that he would kill anyone?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Representative BOGGS. What about Nixon?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. He did tell me he was about ready to commit that particular act, with respect to Nixon. That's when I kept him in the bathroom, but he never said, "Well, today it's Walker and then I'm going to kill someone else." He never said that. He never related to me any of his plans about killing anybody.

*In other words, he never said to me, "Now, I'll kill Walker and then I'll kill this fellow" and so on--he never did.

Senator COOPER. You testified that your husband said that he did not like the United States for several reasons; one, because of certain Fascist organizations; two, because of difficulty of securing employment; and another reason--because of the high cost of medical care. Did he ever say that those things that he did not like could be remedied or changed if an official of the Government were done away with?* **

*Mrs. OSWALD. No; he never told me.

**No; he never told me he never told me.

Senator COOPER. Did any official of the Soviet Union, or any person who was a Soviet citizen, ever talk to you or ever talk to Lee to your knowledge, during the time that you were in the United States?

Mr. GREGORY. At any time before or after?

Senator COOPER. Yes?

Senator RUSSELL. You said--in the United States, didn't you?

Senator COOPER. Yes; in the United States.*

*Mrs. OSWALD. No; no one ever did. The only time Lee talked with a representative of the Soviet Union was in Mexico, but not me and Lee, we were never approached by the Soviet representatives.

Senator COOPER. When was the first time you ever heard of Police Officer Tippit?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. When there was a broadcast over the radio that Officer Tippit was killed.

Senator COOPER. Have you seen Mrs. Paine since the time you left her home after the assassination?*

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

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*I saw her twice since I left Irving, since I lived with her in Irving.

Senator COOPER. When was that?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. Once, when I lived with Katya Ford in February of this year, and the next time I do not recall--maybe 1 month later. In my house.

Senator COOPER. You had quite an association with her, and I need not recall all of the facts, but is there any reason now that you do not wish to see her?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. One of the reasons is that she belongs to the Civil Liberties Union and I don't want to get mixed up in anything. I already have plenty of grief.

Senator COOPER. Just one other question--is there any other fact about this subject, which you have been asked by the Commission or by anyone else that you have knowledge of that you have not told us about it? Any fact that would bear on this inquiry?* **

*Mrs. OSWALD. I would be glad to, but I don't know of any.

Representative BOGGS. May I just ask one or two questions?

Have you seen Mrs. Marguerite Oswald at any time since you first appeared before the Commission?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Representative BOGGS. Have you heard from her?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Representative BOGGS. You've had no communication from her either directly or indirectly?* **

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

*She tried to get in touch with me.

**Through Attorney McKenzie.

Representative BOGGS. And you refused to see her?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

*I think that she may hake been bad influence with the children--improper influence with the children.

**I feel that--I hardly believe--that Lee Oswald really tried to kill President Kennedy.

Mrs. OSWALD. I feel in my own mind that Lee did not have President Kennedy as a prime target when he assassinated him.

Representative BOGGS. Well, who was it?

*Mrs. OSWALD. I think it was Connally. That's my personal opinion that he perhaps was shooting at Governor Connally, the Governor of Texas.

Senator RUSSELL. You've testified before us before that Lee told you he was coming back to Texas--if he was back in Texas, he would vote for Connally for Governor. Why do you think he would shoot him?

Mrs. OSWALD. **I feel that the reason that he had Connally in his mind was on account of his discharge from the Marines and various letters they exchanged between the Marine Corps and the Governor's office, but actually, I didn't think that he had any idea concerning President Kennedy.

Representative BOGGS. Well, now, my next question is---did he ever express any hostility to Governor Connally?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. He never expressed that to me his displeasure or hatred of Connally, but I feel that there could have been some connection, due to the fact that Lee was dishonorably discharged from the Corps. and there was an exchange of letters between the Governor's Office and Lee. That's my personal opinion.

Representative BOGGS. Just a minute. Excuse me, Senator.

I asked you in February, Mrs. Oswald, I said, "What motive would you ascribe to your husband in killing President Kennedy?" And, you said, "As I saw the documents that were being read to me, I came to the conclusion that he wanted by any means, good or bad to get into history, and now that I've read a part of the translation of some of the documents, I think that there was some political foundation to it, a foundation of which I am not aware."

And then you go on and you express no doubt in your mi~d that he intended to kill President Kennedy.

Mrs. OSWALD. **Did I say that, this last time in Dallas? The last time in Dallas, apparently there was some misunderstanding on the part of my answers

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to the Commission, because I was told by Mr. McKenzie that it wasn't reported accurately.

*The record should read that on the basis of the documents that I have read, I have no doubts that I had available to me to read--I had no doubt that he did----

Mr. GOPADZE. That he could kill him----

Mr. GREGORY. Could or have wanted to---could have wanted to----

Mr. GOPADZE. He could kill--she doesn't say "want"--he could have killed him.

Representative BOGGS. Let's straighten this out because this is very important.

Mrs. OSWALD. Okay.

Representative BOGGS. I'll read it to you, "I gather that you have reached the conclusion in your own mind that your husband killed President Kennedy?" You replied, "Regretfully--yes."

Now, do you have any reason to change that?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. That's correct. I have no doubt that he did kill the President.

Representative BOGGS. Now, the other answer as I read it was: "On the basis of documents that you had seen presented at the Commission hearings"--isn't that right?

Mrs. OSWALD. **The word "documents" is wrong--the facts presented--that's what I mean.

Representative BOGGS. Again we get back to the question of motive. You said again today that you are convinced that Lee Oswald killed President Kennedy.

You said something additionally today, though, and that is that you feel that it was his intention not to kill President Kennedy, but to kill Governor Connally.

Now, am I correct in saying that she had not said this previously?

Mr. RANKIN. Ask her that.* **

Representative BOGGS. Let's get an answer. I think this answer is quite important.

*Mrs. OSWALD. On the basis of all the available facts, I have no doubt in my mind that Lee Oswald killed President Kennedy.

*At the same time, I feel in my own mind as far as I am concerned, I feel that Lee--that my husband perhaps intended to kill Governor Connally instead of President Kennedy.

Representative BOGGS. Now, let me ask you one other question: Assuming that this is correct, would you feel that there would be any less guilt in killing Governor Connally than in killing the President?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. I am not trying to vindicate or justify or excuse Lee as my husband. Even if he killed one of his neighbors, still it wouldn't make much difference--it wouldn't make any difference a killing is a killing. I am sorry.

Representative BOGGS. There are one or two other questions I want to ask her.

I know you've been asked a lot of questions about this thing. How old were you when you left Russia?*

Mrs. OSWALD. Twenty years. My birthday--I was 21 when I came here. In July--my birthday was in July.

Representative BOGGS. Were you a member of the Communist Party in Russia?*

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

*I was a member of a Komsomol organization.

Representative BOGGS. What is that?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. It is an association of young Communist youth. It is not party, sir. In order to become a member of the Communist Party, one has to be first a member of the Komsomol, but I didn't even have the membership card in Komsomol Association.

Representative BOGGS. Would it be normal for one to graduate, so to speak, from the Komsomol to the membership in the Communist Party?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. It is a prerequisite for a prospective member of the Communist Party to be first a member of the Komsomol organization, but not every member of Komsomol becomes a Communist Party member.

Mr. RANKIN. What percentage?

Senator COOPER. She was expelled?

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Senator RUSSELL. No; she testified she quit the Youth Movement.*

*Mrs. OSWALD. I was dismissed.

**I was expelled from Komsomol.

Senator RUSSELL. Why--for what reason?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. The reason given to me for being expelled from Komsomol was because I did not get my card, because I did not take out my Komsomol card for 1 year. That was the reason given to me, but I believe the true reason why they expelled me from Komsomol was because I married an American.

It also happened about the time when I visited the American Embassy. I was expelled the following week after I visited the American Embassy in Moscow.

Senator RUSSELL. Did you pay any dues to the Komsomol?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; 30*

Yes; 30* every month.

Senator RUSSELL. I thought that practically all young people belonged to the Komsomol?* **

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Senator RUSSELL. There are many more of them than there are members of the Communist Party, aren't there?*

Mrs. OSWALD. Oh, yes.

Senator RUSSELL. Nearly every city in Russia has a big building, there is a Youth Komsomol Building?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; I was persuaded or talked into joining the Komsomol organization.

Senator RUSSELL. I thought that was automatic?**

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

No one has to be accepted into Komsomol. It is not automatic.

Representative BOGGS. One further question, and this is off the record.

(Interrogatories and answers off the record at this point.)

Representative BOGGS. In response to Senator Russell, I gathered that you plan to stay in the United States?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; if possible.

Representative BOGGS. Do you aspire to become a citizen of the United States, or are you a citizen?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. I am not a citizen. I wish to become an American citizen.

Senator RUSSELL. Mrs. Oswald, when you were before us before, you testified that you were not a member of any church, but you had your own religion in your own heart, as I recall?* **

*Mrs. OSWALD. In Russia I did not belong to any church. No one belongs to any church in Russia.

Senator RUSSELL. Except old women?

*Mrs. OSWALD. I'll say this--that I believe it's unhealthy in the Soviet Union to openly belong to any church. While there is no persecution of religious belief in Russia, the officials look at it with much disfavor.

Senator RUSSELL But you are not actually a member of the church, are you?***

**Mrs. OSWALD. In Russian churches, they don't have a fee or they don't have any membership, they have dues in Russian churches.

Senator RUSSELL. But you've not been baptized in any church?*

Mrs. OSWALD. Oh, yes; I have been baptized.

Senator RUSSELL. When were you baptized?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember.

Senator RUSSELL. Are you actually a member of the church?* **

**Mrs. OSWALD. Actually, I am not a member as you know in the United States. However, I belong to the church, the Russian church here in Dallas, and I don't pay dues.

Senator RUSSELL. You are more of a communicant now than you are a member of the church?

Mrs. OSWALD. I think the understanding of church membership is different in the Soviet Union or in the understanding of a person that was brought up in the Soviet Union.

Senator RUSSELL. I am concerned about this testimony, Mrs. Oswald, about

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your believing now that Lee was shooting at Connally and not at the President, because you did not tell us that before.*

*Mrs. OSWALD. At that time I didn't think so, but the more I mull over it in my own mind trying to get it in my own mind what made him do what he did., the more I think that he was shooting at Connally rather than President Kennedy.

Senator RUSSELL. Now, did you not testify before that Lee wrote a letter to Connally when he was Secretary of the Navy about the nature of his Marine discharge?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Senator RUSSELL And that when he got a letter back, that you asked him what it was?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Senator RUSSELL. And he said, "Well, it's just some Bureaucrat's statement"?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

*Yes.

Senator RUSSELL Did you not further testify that Lee said in discussing the gubernatorial election in Texas that if he were here and voting, that he would vote for Mr. Connally?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Senator RUSSELL. Now, do you think he would shoot and kill a man that he would vote for, for the Governor of his state?* **

**Mrs. OSWALD. The only reason is--I am trying to analyze, myself, there was a reason--more reason to dislike Connally as a man than he had for Kennedy.

Senator RUSSELL. Well, she testified before that he had spoken, as far as Lee spoke favorably of anyone, that he had spoken favorably of both Kennedy and of Governor Connally.**

**Mrs. OSWALD. He also told me that he was also favorable toward Connally, while they were in Russia. There is a possibility that he changed his mind, but he never told her that.

Senator RUSSELL. Well, I think that's about as speculative as the answers I've read here. He might have changed his mind, but he didn't tell her anything about it, as she testified--that discussing politics in Texas, that he said that if he were here when they had the election, that he would vote for John Connally for Governor, and that was after he got the letter about the Marine Corps.* **

**Mrs. OSWALD. That happened in Russia when he received some kind of pamphlet with a picture of Connally, a separate time, at which time he remarked that when he returned, if and when he returned to Texas he would vote for Connally.

Senator RUSSELL. That's right--that's exactly right, but yet now you say that he was his prime target.

I want to know what Connally had done to Lee since he got back from Russia that would cause him to change his mind, to shoot him?* **

*Mrs. OSWALD. I do not know, but there is a possibility that Lee became hateful of Connally--because the matter of this dishonorable discharge was dragging so long.

Senator RUSSELL. Yes; but Connally had left the Navy, where he had anything to do with the discharge, before he got the pamphlet about his being a candidate for Governor?** *

**Mrs. OSWALD. I am not sure when that particular thing happened, whether Mr. Connally was the Secretary of the Navy or what he was doing.

Senator RUSSELL. Well, it's a matter of common knowledge that he ran for Governor after he resigned as Secretary of the Navy.

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know.

Senator RUSSELL Did you not know that when Mr. Connally was running for Governor of Texas, he was no longer Secretary of the Navy and had nothing to do with the Marine Corps?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I knew--I knew that he was not the Secretary of the Navy any more because Lee told me that Connally stated in the letter to Lee that he was no longer Secretary of Navy and hence he couldn't do anything for him, and that Connally referred the petition to the proper authorities.

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Senator RUSSELL. Mrs. Oswald, didn't Lee read about government a great deal? Didn't Lee read about civic affairs and about government a great deal?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. He read books about Kennedy, about Hitler, about others.

Senator RUSSELL. Haven't you been in this country long enough to know that the President is Commander and Chief of the Army and Navy and he's even head of the Secretary of the Navy. He can order him to do anything he wants to? *

*Mrs. OSWALD. I didn't pay any attention to it or I didn't know it or wasn't told.

Senator RUSSELL. Do you have any facts on which you base your opinion now that Lee Oswald was shooting and was intending to kill Connally rather than President Kennedy?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. I have no facts whatsoever. I simply express an opinion which perhaps is not logical at all, but I am sorry if I mixed everybody up.

Senator RUSSELL. You haven't mixed anybody up, except I think that you have your evidence terribly confused.*

*Mrs. OSWALD. No; I have no facts whatsoever. I'm sorry I told them that.

Senator RUSSELL. Do you know whether or not Lee knew Connally personally or did he know that he was going to be in this motorcade at all?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. No; I did not know whether Lee knew or ever contacted the Governor personally, and I don't know whether Lee knew that the Governor would be in the motorcade.

Senator RUSSELL. But Lee did take his gun into town that day, and so far as you know, I believe you said that was the first day he had carried it into town?

*Mrs. OSWALD. I do not personally know that Lee took the rifle that morning or the night before. Apparently the Commission has witnesses or information to that effect, but of my own knowledge, I don't know.

Senator RUSSELL. Did you not testify that you thought this was Lee's rifle that was shown you as the one that shot Connally and the President?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; I testified that that was the rifle.

Mr. GOPADZE. No---I'm sorry. As far as she knows about the arms, the rifle which was shown to her looked like the one he had.

Mr. GREGORY. Yes; that's right.

Senator RUSSELL. That's all I asked her. That's just exactly what I asked her.

Mr. GREGORY. Yes; that's correct.

Senator RUSSELL. In discussing the motorcade, did he say anything about Connally would be riding with the President?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. No; he did not.

Senator RUSSELL. I believe you testified, did you not, Mrs. Oswald, that the day before Lee told you that he fired at General Walker, that he seemed to be under great emotional stress, strain, very tense?* **

*Mrs. OSWALD. He was angry and excited. He was angry and excited.

Senator RUSSELL. Did he show any of that on the morning that he left home when the President was assassinated?* **

**Mrs. OSWALD. Well, I did not notice any difference in Lee's attitude during that morning from any other day. But sometimes, quite often, he was impulsive and nervous and excited. I got tired from watching him in those particular moods, in his moods, and I didn't pay any attention.

Senator RUSSELL. Why did you happen to watch him then on the morning that he shot at General Walker?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. I simply--his mood left no impression on me that particular morning. There was nothing extraordinary about it.

Senator RUSSELL. On the Walker morning?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, no--on the morning of the President's assassination.

Senator RUSSELL. Yes, but you said you noticed it on the morning before he shot Walker?

Mrs. OSWALD. Are you talking about Walker?

Senator RUSSELL. If you didn't notice his moods, how did you happen to notice it on the day before he shot at General Walker?* **

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**Mrs. OSWALD. The reason I didn't notice that particular morning about his mood was because the night before we had a little quarrel and I didn't pay any attention to that, particularly, and I was thinking that it was due to that quarrel we had the night before.

Senator RUSSELL. Well, of course, that was the quarrel you had about him registering under an assumed name or giving an assumed name at his room.**

Was that not the time, did you not try to telephone him and they told you that no such person stayed there at all?

*Mrs. OSWALD. That was the cause of the quarrel. You see, at this particular morning of the assassination, I was very tired because the baby woke up several times during the night and I was very tired, and in the morning I did not register or I did not even attempt to register his moods.

Senator RUSSELL. I think you testified before that you only saw him when he got up, that you stayed in bed and that he got up and fixed his own coffee and got out.* **

*Mrs. OSWALD. The only extraordinary thing that I noticed about him the morning of the assassination was that when Lee was leaving the house, he asked me if I purchased a pair of shoes.

Senator RUSSELL. For June?

Mrs. OSWALD. For me.

Senator RUSSELL. And for June?*

Mrs. OSWALD. And for the baby.

Senator RUSSELL. And for June?

*Mrs. OSWALD. And that was the only thing that was extraordinary, and I wondered what was happening that he became, that he was so kind all of a sudden.

Senator RUSSELL. That was out of the money in the black wallet, too?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

*Yes--that was a fleeting thought in my mind of why the change in him.

Senator RUSSELL. But apparently he was not as excited and as upset as he was the morning before the Walker shooting?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. He was just as usual--sort of sleepy that particular morning. He was not excited. Then, I was so sleepy myself that I didn't pay any attention.

Senator RUSSELL. But you did testify that he was unusually excited the night before he shot at General Walker, did you not?

*Mrs. OSWALD. The more time is passing, the more I am mixed up as to the exact occurrence. I'm forgetting these fine details with the passing of time.

Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chairman, I wonder if we could take a 5-minute recess? The reporter has been at it a long time?

Senator RUSSELL. Oh, yes; I don't know how she's stood it. I've never seen one in the Congress that took it anything like that long.

The REPORTER. Thank you.

Mr. RANKIN. And we will let you have a 5 minute recess, Mrs. Oswald.

(At this point the proceedings were recessed and resumed as stated, at 6:40 p.m., Sunday, September 6, 1964.)

Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chairman.

Mrs. Oswald, you have not appeared here today with a lawyer. have you?*

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. You have not, is that right? You have no lawyer with you?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Senator RUSSELL. No.

Mr. RANKIN. When you appeared before the Commission the other two times, you did have a lawyer with you, did you not?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes--the other two times.

Mr. RANKIN. Is there some reason why you do not have a lawyer at this time?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. That attorney cost me too much.

Mr. RANKIN. And--before this hearing, Mrs. Oswald, we offered to, that is the Commission offered to furnish you an attorney if you wanted one to be supplied to you for this hearing, did it not?* **

**Mrs. OSWALD. You did so?

Mr. RANKIN. I understood that that message was given to you by the Secret Service that we would ask for the appointment of counsel to attend the meeting

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with you, if you wished it, and you said you didn't need it, you would just tell the truth?

Mrs. OSWALD. Mr. Sorrels called me on telephone and he asked me if I have a lawyer, an attorney, and I said, "No." and he told me, "Do I want to have one?" and I said, "No."

Mr. RANKIN. And you understood that you would be supplied a lawyer if you wanted one and you said you didn't, is that right?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. You referred to the fact, when you were asked, that your husband had a rifle in the Soviet Union while he was there. In your prior testimony, you referred to either a rifle or a shotgun, do you know which it was?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. I do not know the difference between the shotgun and the rifle.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know that he had one or the other?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. I know that there is a difference between this particular rifle and another rifle, but I don't know what the difference is. It was perhaps a different color.

Mr. RANKIN. You know that in the Soviet Union he did have either a rifle or a shotgun, do you?*

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Turning to the period when you were in New Orleans, just before you went back to Dallas with Ruth Paine, do you recall that time?*

*Mrs. OSWALD Yes--faintly.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you remember that was the latter part of September?*

Mrs. OSWALD. **Possibly.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you remember what date you went back to Dallas from New Orleans?* **

*Mrs. OSWALD. It wasn't the 26th of September?

Mr. RANKIN. Wasn't it about the 23d of September that you went back?* **

Mrs. OSWALD. The 23d?

*I do not know.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you remember that you had a discussion with your husband about the unemployment check that he was to receive about that time?* **

*Mrs. OSWALD. I remember Lee told me that he was expecting an unemployment check just before he left for Mexico.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you that he had changed the postal address and that that check would probably come to Ruth Paine's?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. He told me that he was going to change his address and that the letters would come to that new address of Ruth Paine.

Mr. RANKIN. Did the unemployment check ever come to Ruth Paine's?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. When he returned from Mexico, he asked me if the unemployment check arrived, and I replied that I did not know. No; there was no check.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he say anything about getting the check at New Orleans and cashing it himself?* **

*Mrs. OSWALD. I do not remember it right now, but if I mentioned that to the Commission before, then it was so.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you have any recollection about it now?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. I do not recall distinctly now, but I think there was some conversation about the check being long in transit, that the check was sent from Dallas to New Orleans and from New Orleans to Irving.

Mr. RANKIN. Well apparently, Mrs. Oswald, the facts show that the check was cashed by your husband with a stamped mark of the bank, dated the 26th of September, in New Orleans. Does that refresh your memory at all?* **

*Mrs. OSWALD. I was not with Lee at that time.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he ever tell you anything about it?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. I do not remember at this moment.

Mr. RANKIN. Apparently he cashed the check at the little store, or the supermarket, near where you lived there in New Orleans. Did he every tell you that?* **

*Mrs. OSWALD. No; he did not tell me. I do not remember that he told me.

Mr. RANKIN. Did Lee ever tell you where he stayed the night after you left, that is, the night of the 23d of September?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. He told me that he stayed in that same house.

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Mr. RANKIN. At the house where you had lived?**

**Mrs. OSWALD. He stayed with his aunt. I remember something that he stayed a couple days with his aunt in New Orleans.

*Did I leave on the 23d?

Mr. RANKIN. Yes.

*Mrs. OSWALD. I do not recall distinctly at this moment, but I believe he said he spent the first night at the house where we lived, and perhaps one or two nights at Aunt Lillian's.

Mr. RANKIN. Is there something else?

*Mrs. OSWALD. It is so difficult for me to remember now.

Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband have any Cuban friends at New Orleans?

*Mrs. OSWALD. I do not know about this.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you remember the time a man by the name of Bringuier came to the house there? Bringuier [spelling] B-r-i-n-g-u-i-e-r.

*Mrs. OSWALD. Someone came, but I don't know from which organization or who he was.

Mr. RANKIN. Was there more than one person who came asking about that or only one?*

Mrs. OSWALD. Just one.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall that your husband hired someone to help hand out leaflets about fair play for Cuba on the streets of New Orleans?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. He mentioned that he hired a boy to help him, by giving him some money to buy ice cream or something--I don't know.

Mr. RANKIN. I'll hand you what is marked as Frank Pizzo Exhibit No. 453--A, which is a photograph, and ask you if you recognize your husband there, and also, any of the other men there in the picture?*

*Mrs. OSWALD (examining instrument mentioned). I recognize only my husband.

Mr. RANKIN. Is your husband the man with the marks that sort of look like a "T" in light green?*

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. I ask you if you recognize anyone besides your husband in Frank Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-B?*

Mrs. OSWALD. No. *No. [Examining instrument mentioned.] No.

Mr. RANKIN. But you do recognize your husband there?

Mrs OSWALD. Yes--yes.

Mr. RANKIN. He has a green mark over his photograph, does he not?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether or not your husband consulted any attorneys in New Orleans while he was there?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. I do not know about this.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know of a Clay Bertrand, [spelling] B-e-r-t-r-a-n-d?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband ever say anything about consulting an attorney about his discharge from the Marines or about his American citizenship?* **

*Mrs. OSWALD. He did not.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether or not your husband was in Dallas in September between the 23d, the date that you left with Mrs. Paine, and the 26th of September--at any time?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. I do not know.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he ever say anything about anything like that?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever know a Sylvia Odio, [spelling] O-d-i-o?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. You never heard of her?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Sylvia Odio is a woman in Dallas who said that your husband, along with two Cubans, came to see her under the name "Leon Oswald," on the evening of the 25th or the 26th of September 1963. Do you know anything about

that?*

**Mrs. OSWALD. No; I do not know about this.

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Mr. RANKIN. Have you ever heard of her?*

*Mr. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever hear of a person by the name of Rodriguez [Spelling] R-o-d-r-i-g-u-e-z, that your husband was said to have known in New Orleans, while you were there? Do you know whether your husband ever knew a Rodriguez [spelling] R-o-d-r-i-g-u-e-z in New Orleans?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. He may have known him, but I don't know anything about it.

Mr. RANKIN. He never told you that he knew anyone like that?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. No; he did not tell me.

Mr. RANKIN. When you lived in New Orleans and after your husband lost his job, did he stay away from home in the evenings much?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. He was not at home during the day time, but he was at home most of the time in the evenings.

Mr. RANKIN. And by being at home in the evenings, what time do you mean from 6 o'clock on, or 7 o'clock, or what time?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. After 7.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he ever show signs of having been drinking or being drunk when he came home?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. Never.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he ever talk about having seen some friends or some Cubans or Mexicans in the bar or some bar in New Orleans?* **

*Mrs. OSWALD. No; it's strange for me to hear that Lee visited bars or that he drank.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you know of his drinking at all in New Orleans?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. I never did.

Mr. RANKIN. He was arrested in connection with the Fair Play for Cuba matter around August 9, if you will recall. You may not remember the exact date, but I refresh your memory and call your attention to the fact that it was that date-- August 9?*

Mrs. OSWALD. I know about this.

Mr. RANKIN. How did that come to your attention, how did you learn about it?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. That night I waited for him until 3 o'clock in the morning. Then, I went to bed. When he came in the morning, I asked him where he had been and he told me he was arrested by the police.

Mr. RANKIN. Had he stayed out all night that way before?* **

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. It hadn't ever happened before?**

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. You say it never happened that he would even stay out late in the evening?*

Mrs. OSWALD. No; sometimes he was delayed, but he would be home by 9 o'clock.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever hear your husband say anything about being associated with any pro-Castro or anti-Castro groups in Dallas?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. I didn't know that he belonged to any organization in Dallas.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you know of any such associations or any associations with Cubans after he returned from Mexico City?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. I do not know about this.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he ever mention Sylvia Odio to you or any name like that, that you recall?* **

*Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, when you testified before the Commission before, you were asked what kind of a job your husband had at the Minsk factory, do you recall that?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. You said he read blueprints and translated them into the finished product. Do you remember your husband saying anything like that to you?* **

*Mrs. OSWALD. I don't think I testified to that.

Mr. RANKIN. You don't recall testifying to that?*

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Mrs. OSWALD. I testified that he was a--slesar.

Mr. GREGORY. Off the record, please?

She names a trade and that Russian word stands for locksmith, but I know that he was not a locksmith, I mean, from the description of work that he was doing. He was working at a factory where he was assembling details for--metallic details. He was a machinist apprentice working on parts for radio receivers.

Mr. RANKIN. He told the FBI at one time in one of the interviews that he was busy reading blueprints and translating them.

Mr. Gregory, are you telling me what she says his job was or are you telling me what you know?

Mr. GREGORY. No; she's telling me, but Mrs. Oswald tells me that the technical name of his job was the Russian word (spelling) s-l-e-s-a-r.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, will you describe, Mrs. Oswald, what he did in that job so it will be clearer than just that word. Tell us what he did?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. I have never been at the plant where Lee worked or in any factory, but from the description that Lee gave me----

Mr. RANKIN. Tell us that?* **

*Mrs. OSWALD. He was grinding details--detailed parts for small parts, small metallic parts for radio receivers, on a lathe.

Perhaps he was boasting about the importance of his work when he told you about reading the blueprints and translating them into the finished product. He may have actually done that kind of work, but I know nothing about that.

Mr. RANKIN. Was the only work that he told you he was doing during the period that you were there in Minsk, this job of grinding these parts on the lathe?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. While he and I lived together--yes. That was the kind of work that he was doing in Minsk.

Mr. RANKIN. And that's all that you know of?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. That's all I know about his work.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, turning to the period that your husband was in Moscow in 1959 when he first came there, and, of course, you were married later than that, did he tell you about his experiences when he first came to Moscow?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. He told me that for the most part he visited museums and studied the Russian language.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he say anything about the in tourist guides, the women studied the Russian language.

Mrs. OSWALD. The Russian guides?

Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you about any of the others that he knew there?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. He did, but I don't remember their names, except Rimma. The only reason I remember Rimma Sherikova is because she visited us in Minsk. She did not come especially to see us, but she was passing through Minsk and stopped to see us.

Mr. RANKIN. What did your husband tell you about Rimma?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. That she was a very fine, pretty, smart young girl, and unfortunately, older than he is, and that she helped him a great deal.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you how she helped him?*

Mrs. OSWALD. First of all, as an interpreter.

Mr. RANKIN. What else?

*Mrs. OSWALD. And that he spent time with her and did not feel lonesome.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he say anything about Rimma or the other in tourist guides helping him with learning Russian?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; he did.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he say how much they did that?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. No; he did not.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he say anything about the guides helping him in dealing with the Embassy about his citizenship or giving up his citizenship?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. No; he did not tell me about that.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he say anything about the guides giving him any financial help?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. No; he did not tell me.

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Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband say anything about when he learned that he might be able to stay in Russia, how he learned it?

*Mrs. OSWALD. No; he did not. He, Lee, took part in radio broadcasts, propaganda in favor of the Soviet Union, which he felt helped him to get permission to stay in the Soviet Union.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he say when he did that?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. That was before my time.

Mr. RANKIN. How did you learn about it?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. He told me about it. Lee told me that the Soviet Union offered him Soviet citizenship, but he turned it down. He told me that he turned it down. At the same time, other developments as I recall, left the impression with me that he actually wanted to become a Soviet citizen, but I didn't connect the two. There is a discrepancy between the two, but at the time, I couldn't reconcile these apparent differences in what he said.

Mr. RANKIN. You know he told the reporters that he talked to in Moscow in November, that the Government was going to let him stay, but his diary says he didn't get that word until January the 4th of the following year. Now, do you know anything about that, how that happened?

Mrs. OSWALD. 1960?

Mr. RANKIN. 1959 in November is when he told the reporters, and it was January 4, 1960, that he actually put it in his diary that he had the first learning of it?*

Mrs. OSWALD. That they would let him stay in the Soviet Union?

Mr. RANKIN. Yes.

Mrs. OSWALD. Newspaper reporters?

Mr. RANKIN. Yes; newspaper reporters--Miss Johnson and Miss Mosby.*

*Mrs. OSWALD. He made the entry into his diary, I think, at a later date, and they may not be correct or precise-- just one.

Mr. GREGORY. I think she's a little tired. She's saying many words, but I can't connect them. She says, "To be brief, I don't believe I know."

Mr. RANKIN. We will soon be through, Mrs. Oswald. There are just a few more questions.*

When your husband said that he had spoken over the radio and he thought that helped him, did he tell you what he said over the radio? **

Mrs. OSWALD. He spoke over the radio of how everything--how wonderful everything was in the Soviet Union, or what he thought they liked to hear.

Mr. RANKIN. And did you understand that he spoke that in Moscow while he was there?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; while he was in Moscow.

Mr. RANKIN. That was during the period after he had first come to the country and before he came to Minsk, is that right?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, do you recall any more than you have told us about the time you had the interview with the MVD about your visa--what they said to you and what you said to them?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. First of all, Colonel Aksenov asked me why I wanted to go to America, "Is it so bad here that you want to leave?" And I replied that I wanted to go to America with my husband and that I believe that I have that right.

Mr. RANKIN. What did they say to that?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. Then he said, "You will simply have to wait because you are not the only one who wants to leave. You will have to wait your turn."

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall anything else that was said at that time?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. At that time I was pregnant and Colonel Aksenov suggested that may be it would be better for me to wait until the baby came.

Mr. RANKIN. What did you say to that?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. I told him that I would prefer to leave as soon as possible.

Mr. RANKIN. Is that all you remember of the conversation?*

Mrs. OSWALD. Nothing of importance.

Mr. RANKIN. Where did this conversation occur?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. In the MVD building in Minsk.

Mr. RANKIN. And who was present besides you and Colonel Aksenov?*

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Mrs. OSWALD. At first there were two military men who later left, and they accompanied me or rather they showed me to the room where Colonel Aksenov was. We were the only two in the room.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, your husband said that before you both left for the United States, he had an interview with the MVD. Do you recall that?*

Mrs. OSWALD. Before we left where?

Mr. RANKIN. Before you left the Soviet Union?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. I do not know about this.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall anything like that while you were in Moscow before you left for the United States?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. You were never told about anything like that by your husband?

*Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. By anyone else?*

Mrs. OSWALD. Nobody.

Mr. RANKIN. You were not present at any such meeting?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know of any meeting of that kind in Minsk?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. He never told me that he had interviews.

Mr. RANKIN. He said he quarreled with them trying to expedite the visas, the exit permits, and where was that?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. In Minsk.

Mr. RANKIN. And did he tell you whom he talked to when he quarreled with them about the exit visas?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. I do not know their names, but all the people that were empowered with issuance of the exit permits.

Mr. RANKIN. Was that the time that you said he tried to get to see Colonel Aksenov and they wouldn't let him?* **

Mrs. OSWALD. It could have happened before we moved because he apparently had a conversation with the Colonel.**

**I remember it was cold.

Mr. GREGORY. May I ask Marina--will you mind to read the question?

The REPORTER. "Was that the time that you said he tried to get to see Colonel Aksenov and they wouldn't let him?"

Mr. RANKIN. I was asking about the meeting with the MVD.

Mr. GREGORY. Lee meeting with the MVD in Minsk?

Mr. RANKIN. Yes--about the exit visas.

Mr. GREGORY. And you wanted to know the year and the month of the year?

Mr. RANKIN. No; I was first trying to find out what meeting she was talking about and whether it was the one she referred to later.

Mr. GREGORY. When she could not get the audience with the man?

Mr. RANKIN. That's right.* **

*Mrs. OSWALD. It was approximately in January 1962.

Mr. RANKIN. And did he tell you what happened at that meeting?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. He did not meet with--he did not get to see Colonel Aksenov.

Mr. RANKIN. But he did see someone else in there?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Apparently he talked to someone who substituted or was inferior to Colonel Aksenov.

Mr. RANKIN. And what did he tell you happened at that time?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. Lee told me that when he came to MVD he asked to see Colonel Aksenov, and the people in the office asked him the nature of the business he wanted to discuss with him, and he told them that it was about exit visas, and they told him that he could not see Aksenov, but that they, whoever "they" were, were empowered to act on that question, but he insisted on seeing the colonel, and he did not get to see him.

Mr. RANKIN. Then what happened?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. Then he came home--then I went to MVD, then he sent me to MVD. I said, "I don't want to go there and he said, "I insist." Then, I was afraid to go there, but I did go, and the Colonel did not eat me up.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you talk to the colonel about both your visa and your husband's at that time?*

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*Mrs. OSWALD. The conversation with Colonel Aksenov was to find out why the delay in the issuance of the exit permits.

Mr. RANKIN. That's all I have.

Senator COOPER There has been a good deal of testimony that you and your husband were good friends with the De Mohrenschildt family?*

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Senator COOPER. Is it correct that when he came to your house on one occasion that he saw the rifle, your husband's rifle?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. I do not know about this. It is possible that I have shown the rifle to them.

Senator COOPER. Do you remember when Mr. De Mohrenschildt said something like this after the Walker incident: "How could you miss it?" or something like that.*

*Mrs. OSWALD. De Mohrenschildt--as soon as he opened the door, he said to Lee, "How could you have missed, how could you have missed him?"

Senator COOPER. Do you have any explanation for that?* **

*Mrs. OSWALD. I do not know whether Lee told De Mohrenschildt about shooting at Walker, and then Lee looked at me thinking--whether I told De Mohrenschildt about it--I don't know. He even couldn't speak that evening. Lee could not speak that evening. We were on the porch.

Senator COOPER. Did he later ask you if you had told De Mohrenschildt?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. He asked me if I told De Mohrenschildt about it and when I said I didn't, he said, "How did he guess it?"

Mr. GOPADZE. No; she said, "Maybe you have told him."

*Mrs. OSWALD. Then he said, "Maybe you've told him about it", and then he added--he said, "How did he guess it?"

Senator COOPER. De Mohrenschildt said he had lived in Minsk, did he ever talk to you about Minsk?* **

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; he did say he lived in Minsk when he was a small child.

Senator COOPER.You said also you heard them talking on occasions, that is, you heard Lee Oswald and De Mohrenschildt talking about Russia, did you hear them talking about political problems, political affiliations?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; they discussed politics.

Senator COOPER Was De Mohrenschildt living in Dallas at the time of the assassination of President Kennedy?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. He lived in Haiti.

Mr. GOPADZE. Do you know if he was in Haiti?

*Mrs. OSWALD. I do not know whether he lived in Dallas at the time of the assassination or whether he lived in Haiti.

Senator COOPER. Could you think back, Mrs. Oswald, is there any fact which comes to your mind which would lead you to believe that any person or persons were associated with your husband in any plan to assassinate President Kennedy, or you thought, Governor Connally?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. Of course, I don't know anything about it.

Senator COOPER. But my question was--not whether you knew. I asked you whether you had any facts which would lead you to believe that there was anyone?***

*Mrs. OSWALD. I do not know about this.

Senator COOPER. One other question. Did Lee Oswald ever say to you that he had any kind of connection with the Cuban Government or any of its agents?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. He did not tell me.

Senator COOPER. I said one more, and this is the last one, I promise you. Once you said that when you went to New Orleans together, he said something like this: "I'm lost." If that's correct, what was he talking about? Do you remember that?***

*Mrs. OSWALD. On that particular occasion he sat by the icebox or the frigidaire and he sat there and he had his head in his hands and he said, "I am lost." I believe that that was the result of all the failures of his.

Senator COOPER Did you feel sympathy for him and love for him in those days?*

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*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; I felt sorry for him. I knew it was difficult for him with his family. I felt sorry for him.

Senator COOPER. All right.

Senator RUSSELL. When you testified the second time in Washington, Mrs. Oswald, that you didn't think Mr. De Mohrenschildt was as dangerous as he sounds--that was your personal opinion--what did you mean by that?*

Here it is: "Mr. Mohrenschildt once took us out to the Fords' house. It was at New Year's, I think--Katya Ford's house. It was either Christmas or New Year's. I don't think Mr. De Mohrenschildt is as dangerous as he sounds. That's my personal opinion."

No one had said anything about him being dangerous, so why was that your opinion?** *

Mr. GREGORY. Off the record.

Senator RUSSELL. She understood that.

Mr. GREGORY. This goes into the record, of course?

Senator RUSSELL Yes, sir.

Mr. GREGORY. I think she's hesitated----

Senator RUSSELL I think she should explain it.

*Mrs. OSWALD. George is such a big mouth.

Senator RUSSELL Let's let her testify, if you don't mind?

Mr. GREGORY. I'm translating what she said.

Senator RUSSELL. Oh, is that what she said? I see. I'm sorry. I'm sorry--I didn't hear it.

*Mrs. OSWALD. George is such a loud mouth or big talker----

Senator RUSSELL. Big talker--that would be the equivalent, I'm sure.

*Mrs. OSWALD. I simply do not believe that--it is my intuition----

Mr. GOPADZE. No; that point?

*Mrs. OSWALD. It is my opinion that people that talk too much do little.

Senator RUSSELL. And did he talk too much or talk very loud? I don't know Mr. De Mohrenschildt.** *

Mrs. OSWALD. Very loud.

*He jokes all the time and people don't know when he talks sense and when he jokes.

**Sometimes he would say something jokingly and people would think that he's telling the truth.

Senator RUSSELL. Was that boasting about some imaginary achievement of his?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. It's simply his manner of speaking--of talking. It's his character.

Senator RUSSELL He didn't talk then about his feats of any kind, about performing any great feats?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. No; he never did.

Senator RUSSELL. It was merely his tone of voice and his manner of expression that made him sound dangerous?**

**Mrs. OSWALD. He was boasting about it, but he never would follow through.

Mr. RANKIN. You might tell the full story.

Mrs. OSWALD. Quite often he would be boasting about something big but he never did follow through.

Senator RUSSELL So he did talk about great achievements most of the time?*

**Mrs. OSWALD. Just like a fellow who is just a happy go-around man, a happy go-lucky man.

Senator RUSSELL. If there is nothing further, the Commission thanks you very much for your assistance, and you, Mr. Gregory, and above all, the very remarkable reporter who has been able to stay with us from the beginning.

The Commission will now recess subject to the call of the Chairman or Chief Justice Warren.

Mrs. OSWALD. Thank you very much.

Senator RUSSELL. Thank you.

(Whereupon, at 8 p.m., the President's Commission adjourned.)

Mr. LIEBELER. And you are quite sure you have never been here before?

*Mrs. OSWALD. I'm sure I never was here before I am quite sure.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are sure of that in spite of the testimony that you heard this morning from Mrs. Whitworth and Mrs. Hunter; is that right?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; that's-right. She told how I was dressed with a rose jacket--that's true I had a rose jacket.

Mr. LIEBELER. She may have seen you somewhere?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; but I never was here maybe she saw me on the street somewhere. She said it looked like she saw me someplace else and that's the reason why I wanted to see rifts store, but maybe I have forgotten by now--

Mr. LIEBELER. You are now standing directly in front of the store at 149 East Irving Boulevard, aren't you?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you are sure you have never been here before?

*Mrs. OSWALD. No; I have never been here before.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have anything to add, Mr. McKenzie?

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Mr. McKENZIE. No.

*Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know if I were inside this store, but I don't recall it now.

Mr. LIEBELER. You don't recognize this store as a place you have ever been before?

*Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. I have no further questions, and this will adjourn the deposition.

TESTIMONY OF MRS. LEE HARVEY OSWALD, EDITH WHITWORTH, AND

GERTRUDE HUNTER

The testimony of Mrs. Lee Harvey Oswald, Edith Whitworth, and Gertrude Hunter was taken at 11 a.m., on July 24, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Present were June Oswald and Rachel Oswald, children of Mrs. Lee Harvey Oswald; William A. McKenzie and Henry Baer, counsel for Mrs. Lee Harvey Oswald; Peter Paul Gregory, interpreter; and Forrest Sorrels and John Joe Howlett, special agents of the U.S. Secret Service.

[Note.---The asterisk represents a response by Marina Oswald without assistance of the interpreter. All other responses shown for Marina Oswald were through the interpreter.]

Mr. LIEBELER. May the record show, Marina, that you have previously been sworn as a witness when you appeared before the Commission in Washington?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you will regard the-testimony that you are going to give here this morning as a continuation of the testimony you gave to the Commission, and I assume you will regard yourself as being under oath as you did before the Commission?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Am I correct in understanding that Marina has indicated she will regard herself as being under a continuing oath?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. The basic purpose for your presence here this morning relates to testimony that has been given by two ladies, Mrs. Whitworth and Mrs. Hunter, who are outside, that you were in a furniture store in Irving, Tex., in early November with your two children and with Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mrs. OSWALD. [No response.]

Mr. LIEBELER. I understand that you had previously testified about this and have told the Commission that you were not in the store at that time. We want these two ladies to have an opportunity to see you and have you see them, to see

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if your recollection can be refreshed or if they were mistaken. Is that agreeable with you, Marina?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; I can remember--I'm sure, I never forget and the baby is just 2 weeks. I would like to know under what circumstances these two ladies saw me at that particular time?

Mr. McKENZIE. And furthermore, where the store is located?

Mr. LIEBELER. Let the record show that Mrs. Whitworth and Mrs. Hunter have come into the room [reporter's note: 11:10 a.m.], and let the record further show that they have both previously testified that sometime in early November 1963, they saw Marina and the two children and Lee Oswald in a furniture store located on East Irving Boulevard in Irving, Tex.

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember the name of the street.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, I will ask Mrs. Whitworth, who was the operator of that store, the address of the store and to describe the store generally for Marina and its name.

Mrs. WHITWORTH. The store was known as the Furniture Mart. The name was clearly on it, and it was located at 149 East Irving Boulevard. That's at the corner of Jefferson and Irving Boulevard on the north side of the street and in the same block with the bank. In fact, the back of it was up to the Bank & Trust there and it looked like at one time it might have been a service station and we had changed it into a furniture store, and they would have seen more used furniture in it, because we had new and used furniture. This clear enough?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember the names of the streets--that wouldn't be material to me. I wouldn't remember it.

Mr. LIEBELER. All right.

Mr. GREGORY. Would you like for me to give the complete answer of this lady to her?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.

Mrs. WHITWORTH. That would be the main thoroughfare in Irving.

Mr. GREGORY. That's the street across from the bank?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; it would be in the same block with the Irving Bank & Trust.

Mrs. OSWALD. The only thing I am interested in is whether Mrs. Whitworth actually knows me or not, whether this lady actually saw me or knows me or not. That's what I am interested in.

Mr. LIEBELER. Let us ask Mrs. Whitworth to describe briefly the circumstances under which you say these people came in the store.

Mr. McKENZIE. And the time of the day, establish the time of the day and the complete circumstances.

Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, it would be more from the middle of the day until, you see, say 3 o'clock in the afternoon or maybe 4 o'clock in the afternoon. When they came in, and drove up to the front, and Mr. Oswald came in the store first.

He came in and asked, you know, about this part of the gun and then he went back to the car, and after asking me about, you know, it--I said I didn't have the part--I didn't have the gun part that he wanted, he said, "You have furniture in here?" And I said, "Yes." He said, "I am going to be needing some," and he went back to the car and took whatever he had back to the car, and then he came back in and she followed him and she had the baby in her arms. It was a tiny baby--he told me it was 2 weeks old, and this little girl [indicating June Oswald] was walking in front of Mrs. Oswald and she was whining a little bit and Mrs. Oswald was, you know, carrying the baby and we come back in and went to the extreme back of the store, and I showed them some bedroom suites and had to pull these beds out and Mrs. Oswald stood there and she never said anything, but Mr. Oswald and I talked, you know, about the furniture, and then we talked about the babies, but she turned and left before he did, you know, because I .walked back up to the front of the store with him, because she was already at the front of the store by the time we turned and went up there, and it was a cool day and it was cool enough that you would have on a little wrap and this little girl, as well as I remember, had on some kind of a short sweater or coat, and Mrs. Oswald had on a short coat too, and she had her hair tied back.

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She doesn't look like she does today, because her face was fuller then and it might have been because she just had this baby then and still hadn't gone back like she was. This baby was just a tiny thing. I didn't see it, it was wrapped up in some kind of a blanket, but this little girl--it definitely was her. It seemed like her hair was a little darker but she did have on some kind of a cap.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you understand this?

*Mrs. OSWALD. I wonder if somebody was in car or not?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. That, I wouldn't testify that there was anybody in the car with you, because I observed what happened in the store, you know. I mean, you impressed me in the store and not out of the store. I didn't notice, because too many people drove up. I thought your car was a two-tone car, either a Ford or a Plymouth--now--I don't know. I thought it was blue and white I wouldn't, you know, swear to that. I mean, too many cars drove up out in front like that, but it was what happened on the inside of the store that I was more impressed with and remembered, and your actions and his, because she acted like she wasn't interested in what he said because she didn't exchange words or anything, but I did talk to him, and I know it was him and I know she was in there.

She may not remember it, but if I was to see her today and seeing her that day and I was to meet her on the street, it would be hard for me to identify her. You know, she still has the features, but her face was round and she had her hair pulled back [indicating].

Mr. GREGORY. You mean in a pony tail?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. In a pony tail.

*Mrs. OSWALD. No; it wasn't that.

Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, there was something tied around it--you had something tied around it, I mean, slicked back from her face.

*Mrs. OSWALD. I didn't wear this.

Mrs. WHITWORTH. I called it a pony tail, but it was kind of pulled back to the back.

*Mrs. OSWALD. I had two pigtails.

Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, she might have it was tied back and whipped back from her face. Her face was round then and she was pretty then--I'd say she was pretty.

*Mrs. OSWALD. Thank you.

Mrs. WHITWORTH. The little girl--I tried to talk to her and attract her attention, but she was whining all the time she was in there and she was trying to attend to this little girl and had this baby in her arms and the little girl walked out in front of her, you know, when they left the store.

*Mrs. OSWALD. Just one time I was in the store? I do not remember that I was ever in a furniture store. That does not make a difference for me. I recall the time when I was in a store with Mrs. Ruth Paine.

Mr. GREGORY. Which store was it?

Mrs. OSWALD. In that store they were selling baby things and towels and I was looking for something for a child.

Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; I didn't sell anything like that--mine was all furniture.

*Mrs. OSWALD. There was just one store like that.

Mrs. WHITWORTH. But we went to the extreme back of the store and, as well as I remember, I had a used reddish maple bookcase headboard bed, you know, I was showing you.

Mrs. OSWALD. I was never in any furniture store.

Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, she didn't act like she was, even that day, you know, she walked off.

*Mrs. OSWALD. You know, not because I want to say you are wrong, but I can't remember I was in a furniture store, especially when I talked with somebody.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, Marina, you said you do remember one time that you were in a store with Mrs. Paine and with Lee and with the children. Do you remember how long you were in the store that time?

*Mrs. OSWALD. About 30 minutes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And how long, Mrs. Whitworth, was she in the store this time that you are talking about?

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Mrs. WHITWORTH. I would say from 30 to 40 minutes.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you don't remember Marina seeing any furniture in the store at that time?

*Mrs. OSWALD. No; this was a cafe on that side on the left side and baby clothes on the right side, and a radio and that's all.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what you went to that store for?

*Mrs. OSWALD. To buy Junie pants--rubber pants.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you buy some clothes for June; do you remember ever seeing these ladies before, Marina?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Just this one [indicating Mrs. Hunter]. Perhaps, now, I saw her, because there is a woman of that particular type, a lady like this out in Richardson--I may have seen a lady like this in Richardson.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you do remember seeing a woman that looked something like Mrs. Hunter, here, Mrs. Hunter being the woman in the blue dress?

*Mrs. OSWALD. I don't think that I saw her, but I saw a woman or women like her--not one, but many of that type.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, Mrs. Hunter, as you sit here and you look at these children and you look at Marina, are you sure in your own mind that these were the people who were in the store that day?

Mrs. HUNTER. I have seen Marina several times before the baby came--several times. She said she saw me do you remember talking to a lady about getting help for you before your baby came?

Mrs. OSWALD. For housework?

Mrs. HUNTER. No; she was talking about the welfare of clothes for the baby before the baby came, but I don't know who she was.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, wait just a minute, Mrs. Hunter, you say you talked to Marina about this?

Mrs. HUNTER. She was with another woman and this other woman didn't come around, and I couldn't understand too much of what she said, and she couldn't understand too much of what I said, and I says, "If you need help with this baby, we can get you help at Parkland Hospital." Do you remember that?

Mr. LIEBELER. Just a minute, would you describe the other woman?

Mrs. HUNTER. Now, the other woman don't mean a thing to me. All I know, she was with this other woman, but I live on Second Street and it was down below me, four or five different streets and this woman, I believe, was going to see someone about fixing a tire or changing a tire. Now, I couldn't tell you what the other woman had on because it was just curiosity to me why--that her couldn't speak like we could and was in this condition and I kept asking her where her husband was and I never did make her understand me and I finally asked her if they had separated [indicating hand signals]--and I did that way--with her, and she made me understand he was staying over in town, but then, I didn't know who she was or nothing about her.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where did all this happen?

Mrs. HUNTER. Let me see, it was in a filling station--how come me at the station--I don't know whether that's the day that we looked at a car that this man had for sale at the station or not.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you think this happened, Mrs. Hunter?

Mrs. HUNTER. It was on the corner of Sixth and Hastings Streets---I know where the station was--I couldn't even tell you the name of the station, because we were looking at a car there.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, what were the circumstances under which you were in this station, Mrs. Hunter?

Mrs. HUNTER. Now, I have never been there but about twice, but at this particular time, last July until right after Christmas, we were looking just for a used pickup or a used car for my husband to haul his tools in. We have a used car at this time there was a car for sale there.

*Mrs. OSWALD. After Christmas?

Mrs. HUNTER. What?

*Mrs. OSWALD. After Christmas?

Mrs. HUNTER. No; I said we were looking for used cars, so that's bound to have been my purpose there because we do not trade with that man. Do you know a driveway and a filling station and a washateria on Sixth Street?

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*Mrs. OSWALD. No; I don't remember Irving.

Mrs. HUNTER. This was before I would say it was in September or October. It was before just a little while, I know, before your baby came, because I won't tell you the remark I made, but anyhow, I know it was pretty close-almost due time you could tell from the way you were carrying the baby, it was almost time for the baby.

*Mrs. OSWALD. I can't remember her [indicating Mrs. Whitworth].

Mr. LIEBELER. Didn't you see this other woman at all, Mrs. Hunter?

Mrs. HUNTER. No; she got out and had her back to me and if I'm not badly mistaken the woman had on a dark dress, but what the woman looked like, it wasn't even dawning on me, because I wasn't even interested. The only thing I seen that she was very uncomfortable and what I thought she was saying was that she was going to have to have help when the baby comes.

Mr. MCKENZIE. Excuse me, but I would like to ask her a question; may I?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.

Mr. McKENZIE. Mrs. Hunter, what is your full name, please?

Mrs. HUNTER. Gertrude Hunter.

Mr. McKENZIE. What is your husband's name?

Mrs. HUNTER. John T. Hunter.

Mr. McKenzie. Do you work with Mrs. Whitworth there in the store?

Mrs. HUNTER. No; just visiting her.

Mr. McKENZIE. You were not in the store on this particular occasion that Mrs. Whitworth has described; is that correct?

Mrs. HUNTER. Yes; I was there.

Mr. McKENZIE. You were there?

Mrs. HUNTER. Yes.

Mr. McKENZIE. And what were you doing in the store that morning or that day?

Mrs. HUNTER. We go to football games together and we were down discussing whether we was going to have, what do you call it, caravan cars or charter a bus, and it was after 2 o'clock in the afternoon, because I never did leave the house only after 2. My daughter works at Commercial Title and she calls me before she goes back off of her lunch hour at 2 o'clock.

Mr. LIEBELER. So, this was after 2 o'clock and prior to the football weekend; is that correct?

Mrs. HUNTER. On Wednesday or Thursday--I won't say just which day.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, On that occasion when you were in the store with Mrs. Whitworth at the Furniture Mart, did Mrs. Oswald or her husband buy any clothes or anything of the sort?

Mrs. HUNTER. Well, she went to talking about the cafe. It used to be a bus station and it has the counter and the chairs for the cafe. The only thing she had there was the candy, and there was some used clothes and a church or welfare or something had had them there, they had their used clothes there, and there were some shoes there. Now, she might have thought she was in a cafe or a drygoods store.

*Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. McKENZIE. At that time I'm asking you about, did either Mrs. Oswald or her husband buy any clothes; do you recall?

Mrs. HUNTER. No; they didn't buy anything.

Mr. LIEBELER. You had seen Mrs. Oswald before; is that correct?

Mrs. HUNTER. Yes; but I didn't know who she was until now---I do now--- I would know her eyes.

Mr. McKENZIE. Of course, you have seen many pictures of her since then.

Mrs. HUNTER. No; I'll be honest with you, I have only seen her once on television and that was in Washington, and day before yesterday I wanted to be sure that .this woman had the long hair, and the way it looked there. Now, I'm honest with him about that. I didn't watch the run of it on television.

Mr. McKENZIE. By "him" you are referring to Mr. Liebeler here?

Mrs. HUNTER. Well, I don't know what his name is.

Mr. LIEBELER. That's right.

Mr. McKENZIE. Now, on this occasion when she was in the store with the two children and her husband, that Mrs. Whitworth has described, did you notice the automobile that they came in?

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Mrs. HUNTER. I sure did.

Mr. MCKENZIE. And was it in the same automobile you had seen her in before at the filling station?

Mrs. HUNTER. No.

*Mrs. OSWALD. Not the same? Not the same?

Mr. McKENZIE. Did you go outside and see the automobile?

Mrs. HUNTER. I was standing in the side door looking up and down the street while she had went with them to the back. Now, I didn't hear her say nothing and I don't know whether she said something to the little girl, or what she said, but she did go "shhh." She could have said "shhh" or something, but I remember her making some kind of a remark to the little girl.

Mr. McKENZIE. To quiet the little girl?

Mrs. HUNTER. Yes.

Mr. McKENZIE. Now, at that time did you notice the automobile in front?

Mrs. HUNTER. Can I tell him what I told you?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.

Mrs. HUNTER. Well, what I meant--I didn't want to do something that I shouldn't. I was looking for some friends of mine from Houston that drove a two-tone blue and white Ford--a 1957--I think it was, and when this car drove up, I left a note on my mailbox when I left the house and I told them if they come while I was gone to come down to this place, because I would be there, or left her telephone number on the note too, and when they drove up----

Mr. LIEBELER. Who is "they" now?

Mrs. HUNTER. Mr. and Mrs. Dominik from Houston, and when this car drove up, I thought it was them and I just said, "Well, my company has come," and that was it and when I seen he was getting out of the car I just seen then that it wasn't, and I just sat back down in the platform rocker there where I was sitting. It was a partition in the front part of the store and I was sitting right here in platform rocker and there was some tables and chairs over here and I had opened this side door. She had it shut and I had opened it.

Mr. McKENZIE. Did your friends from Houston come while they were there?

Mrs. HUNTER. No; they never did come up until later on, and he come up in a truck--several weeks later.

Mr. McKENZIE. Was there anybody else in the automobile that drove up that they got out of?

Mrs. HUNTER. No; just her and him and the two children. Now, I wasn't up close to the car. I was standing in the door and the car was parked over here something like this, and somebody could have been down in the floorboard of the car--I wouldn't say they wasn't.

Mr. McKENZIE. Did you see who was driving the automobile?

Mrs. HUNTER. He got under the steering wheel.

*Mrs. OSWALD. Lee?

Mr. LIEBELER. And you saw him drive the car?

Mrs. HUNTER. I seen him at the steering wheel, under the steering wheel, and if there was someone else, now, in there, you couldn't see them.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, in any event, Mr. Oswald got behind the steering wheel of the car and he drove the car out of the parking lot in front of the building somewhere; isn't that right?

Mrs. OSWALD. I have never seen Lee drive the car in my lifetime. Lee never drove a car with me or the children in it. The only time I saw him behind the wheel was when Ruth Paine taught him to drive the car, he was practicing parking the car when Ruth Paine was teaching him to drive.

Mr. LIEBELER. And that was all in front of Mr. Paine's house; wasn't it?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. I'm sure this lady is trying to tell the truth, but the only possible person who could have driven the car when we were in that store could have been Mrs. Ruth Paine. She knows all the stores where we went because we never went there without her.

Mrs. HUNTER. Well, you've got your privileges---you've got your privileges.

Mr. McKENZIE. Mrs. Hunter, back in September or October when you were in the Shell filling station and Mrs. Oswald and the little girl here, June, and another lady happened to be there---that was the occasion when your husband

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was looking for the pickup truck--did either Mrs. Oswald get out of the car or did the other lady get out of the automobile?

Mrs. HUNTER. She was standing beside the car, now, I don't even remember the baby being there being in the car.

Mr. LIEBELER. But Mrs. Oswald was standing beside the car?

Mrs. HUNTER. Standing beside the car.

Mr. McKENZIE. And where was the other lady standing?

Mrs. HUNTER. Well, she went either to the restroom or into the filling station. She wasn't out there--I never did say anything to this woman.

Mr. MCKENZIE. The other woman----

Mrs. HUNTER. Do you remember anyone saying anything to you about a Salvation Army woman?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Salvation Army woman? I don't know what the Salvation Army is.

Mrs. HUNTER. This woman was dressed and I told her I would get her, I would get her a contact. She dresses in these regular white uniforms most of the time?

Mrs. OSWALD. At the time this lady claims that she saw me, I was not interested in any help or I did not need any help for the baby from the standpoint of social help, because we already made all the preparations for the baby.

Mr. LIEBELER. Mrs. Hunter, when you say you saw these people at the service station, you indicated that the other lady got out of the car, and even though you didn't see her face, you did see her standing in the area of the service station; is that right?

Mrs. HUNTER. You see, we had drove up where he had some used cars and she was there by herself because----

Mr. LIEBELER. When you say "she" you have to say who.

Mrs. HUNTER. Mrs. Oswald.

Mr. LIEBELER. Mrs. Oswald?

Mrs. HUNTER. And I don't know whether she had got out to go into the restroom or what, but that's where she seen me instead of in Richardson.

Mr. LIEBELER. My question is, did you see the other lady standing in the area of the filling station?

Mrs. HUNTER. No; I didn't see the other woman--I really couldn't tell you what she looked like. I just seen a woman go into the filling station or into the restroom and I presumed it was who she was with, because she said--she didn't ask for any help and I couldn't understand her and she couldn't understand me, you see.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, Mrs. Hunter, I want to try and find out--you said you saw this other woman walk into the restroom?

Mrs. HUNTER. I seen a woman--I don't know whether it was the one that was driving the car she was in or not, because she was standing beside the car.

Mr. LIEBELER. That's what I'm trying to get to--was this a skinny woman, a fat woman, a tall or short woman--what did she look like as you saw her walk into the restroom?

Mrs. HUNTER. The woman, I don't believe she was quite as heavy as I am and a little bit taller.

Mr. LIEBELER. How tall are you?

Mrs. HUNTER. Five feet two.

Mr. LIEBELER. And she's just a little ,bit taller than you?

Mrs. HUNTER. I would say ,this woman was taller than I am.

Mr. LIEBELER. How much?

Mrs. HUNTER. About 5 feet 4.

Mr. LIEBELER. About 5 feet 4 or 5 feet 5---how much do you think she weighed?

Mrs. HUNTER. I would say about 135.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did you see anybody else around the automobile?

Mrs. HUNTER. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of car was it?

Mrs. HUNTER. When we got in our car and left she was still standing beside the car.

Mr. LIEBELER. Mrs. Oswald was?

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Mrs. HUNTER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of car was it?

Mrs. HUNTER. Well, now, I wouldn't say as to that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was it a convertible, was it a Volkswagen, was it a station wagon, or was it an ordinary American-type car?

Mrs. HUNTER. It was just a car--but I wouldn't go back to it, because it didn't dawn on me for sure.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was it a station wagon?

Mrs. HUNTER. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you saw Mrs. Oswald, or who you think was Mrs. Oswald, in ,the Station there that day before you saw her in the Furniture Mart; is that right?

Mrs. HUNTER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, when you saw her in the Furniture Mart, did you recognize her?

Mrs. HUNTER. No; it didn't dawn on me I didn't think a thing in the world about it.

Mrs. OSWALD. Excuse me, do you remember how I was dressed and was I pregnant at that time?

Mrs. HUNTER. Yes.

*Mrs. OSWALD. And what did I have on?

Mrs. HUNTER. All I know is you had on a jacket.

*Mrs. OSWALD. What color?

Mrs. HUNTER. It was pretty chilly--it was a rose or more of a--it wasn't red.

Mrs. OSWALD. Was it blue?

Mrs. HUNTER. It was more of a rose.

*Mrs. OSWALD. I had a rose short one.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you testified before you had seen Mrs. Oswald several times.

Mrs. HUNTER. Yes; but I didn't know who she was.

Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us about the other times you saw her.

Mrs. HUNTER. I have seen her in Minyards Grocery Store.

Mr. LIEBELER. What is that?

Mr. MCKENZIE. [Spelling] M-i-n-y-a-r-d-s.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where is that?

Mrs. HUNTER. On Irving Boulevard.

*Mrs. OSWALD. Grocery store?

Mrs. HUNTER. And this drive-in grocery that I was talking about, if you remember there I think I had seen her there.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, aside from the gas station and the furniture shop and the grocery store, did you ever see her any place else?

Mrs. HUNTER. Well, just them things, then at once it dawns on me about her, but she had ribbons in here hair.

*Mrs. OSWALD. What did I have?

Mrs. HUNTER. She was wearing a pigtail or something--her hair was long, and I remember one side the string was hanging down longer and that was at the furniture store.

Mr. LIEBELER. You mean the pigtail?

Mrs. HUNTER. What I can remember about her was the sad expression in her face--she had a very, very sad expression in her face.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was anybody else with Mrs. Oswald when you saw her in the grocery store?

Mrs. HUNTER. Well, I didn't pay no attention to who she was with, or who was with her or nothing about it. I just remember her.

Mr. LIEBELER. You just remember her?

*Mrs. OSWALD. I never wore any ribbons or bows in the hair. Maybe it was somebody Just like me?

Mr. LIEBELER. How is it you remember seeing Mrs. Oswald when you have no recollection of who she was with or anything like that?

Mrs. HUNTER. Well, her eyes--I would know her on the street by her eyes if I was to meet her.

*Mrs. OSWALD. Everybody knows my eyes.

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Mr. LIEBELER. What about you, Mrs. Whitworth, do you recognize these people as the people that were in your store that day?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, like I say, she has changed, but I am definitely sure they were in there.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, as you sit here and look at these children who have been here this morning with Mrs. Oswald, do you recognize them?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. They have grown, and according to their ages and all--- they were there.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any doubt about that?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. I don't have a doubt in the world but that they were there. I believe it might have been, if she could remember, probably about her, of course, the first time after she had this new baby over here, her husband told me Lee Harvey Oswald told me that the baby was 2 weeks old and we discussed my grandchildren about the same age and they were boys. She probably didn't understand our discussion but we discussed these two children and my two grandchildren.

Mrs. OSWALD. I remember Lee exchanging conversations with a woman, but she was a younger woman and they were talking about the baby.

Mrs. WHITWORTH. That was me, probably, but my hair might not be as gray as it is today and I probably have changed, too, but we discussed the babies and trading babies, you know, we was just joking, in fact, in fact I was, anyway, and he said he had hoped to have had a boy when he had the two girls, and we were hoping for a little granddaughter. We talked and she walked off. She never would--she never offered to show us the baby or anything and that's what impressed me more than anything else. Otherwise, I probably would have never paid any attention to them being in the store or anything else, but it was that special talking to him and I was to expedite just about like he was on television one time. It was cool that day and you had to have on--it was probably the 4th, 5th, or 6th of November.

*Mrs. OSWALD. That sounds just about like Lee.

Mr. LIEBELER. And Marina made that answer when Mrs. Whitworth remarked that Lee said that he hoped to have a boy and, isn't that right, Marina?

*Mrs. OSWALD. No; I don't hear this.

Mr. LIEBELER. Because he did want that?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, Mrs. Whitworth, did he do something unusual--did he drive up at the store and park the car and get out?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. I wouldn't say what he did do, but I saw the car come up and I think it was his own car, and I think that it was his own car and I know the door that he came in and I know he went back to the car ,and she came in, but she didn't come in the same door as he did. Whether he drove that car up there, I won't say he didn't and I won't say he drove it off.

Mr. LIEBELER. You told the FBI that he got into the car and drove it off going the wrong way down the street, as a matter of fact?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. I think, really, that Mrs. Hunter and I had talked about it, but I'm not going to say that she described the car at all, but all I wane to say is that they were in that store that day, you know, they've got four of them and I didn't see anyone else in the car and I didn't think you could do it, and if I did at that time, why it was maybe because I had talked to Mrs. Hunter previously about that, because the car did come up there to the gate and they would make a U-turn and go back down the way--back down that one way, and Mrs. Hunter would notice it, where I wouldn't pay too much attention about what happened every day.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you don't recall whether he drove the car or not?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. It has been a long time and I don't recall.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell me yesterday or the day before yesterday that you saw this car drive up in front and the man get out, and did it appear to you that he was driving the car?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. I saw him get out of the car and come to the west door; absolutely.

Mr. LIEBELER. Which side of the car did he get out from; do you remember?

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Did you see anybody else in the car at all, besides this woman and the two children?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. I didn't pay any attention at that time that they were in the car, you know, when they first drove up but I didn't know that they come in the car and they had to get out of a car to come in there; they wouldn't have walked up.

Mr. McKENZIE. Why do you say they wouldn't have walked up there, Mrs. Whitworth?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, they would have had to have lived pretty close and around there and I had never seen them come in there before.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know where they were living?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, not until after all this happened--the assassination and everything--and they lived pretty close around there. I had never seen Mrs. Paine walk by there before.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know where they were living?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, I asked them when all this happened and everything. If they lived out where they did, it would have been too far from my store to have walked up there.

Mr. LIEBELER. You were under the impression at that time that they were living together; isn't that right?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, yes; he told me they were living in an apartment, and I asked him.

*Mrs. OSWALD. Living in an apartment?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes; I said, "You are living in an apartment," and wanting to move out, you know, and he said, "Yes." So, I just assumed when people come in wanting to buy furniture and they are going to need some, that they are either in an apartment fixing to move out, or need some they are going to need some and they are fixing to move out, but he wasn't quite ready then--he said.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you specifically ask him or did he specifically tell you that they were living in an apartment together?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; I asked him--yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. He told you that they were living in an apartment together?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. You have learned since that time that they weren't living-together; isn't that right?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes; I believe so.

Mr. McKENZIE. Do you recall in talking to this lady if she had a tooth missing in front? One or two teeth missing?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. I don't recall that--all I noticed--she didn't even utter a word--I didn't notice it.

Mr. McKENZIE. Do you remember if she had a tooth or two missing?

*Mrs. OSWALD. You know me; you know me?

Mr. McKENZIE. Mrs. Oswald has indicated to Mrs. Hunter that Mrs. Hunter had said she remembered talking to Marina. Now, what about you, Mrs. Hunter; do you remember whether she had any teeth missing?

Mrs. HUNTER. Well, I don't remember anything about her teeth because she would have to almost move her lips, you know, if you didn't pay close attention, now, that was just a very few seconds with her at this station---very few. The only thing that I caught was right here [indicating].

Mr. McKENZIE. Now, don't you think you would notice it if somebody had a tooth out in front of their mouth?

Mrs. HUNTER. Not necessarily, because I don't pay no attention to nobody--- only their eyes and their feet.

Mr. McKENZIE. I don't have any more questions.

Mr. LIEBELER. Marina, did you at any time go with Lee and the children when Lee had something with him wrapped in a brown sack that he took into a store?

*Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mrs. WHITWORTH. It would be about this long [indicating].

Mr. LIEBELER. Indicating about how long?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. I would say about 15 or 18 inches.

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Mrs. OSWALD. I would have noticed if he had had an object with him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, Mrs. Whitworth, you testified that when this man came in the store he did have an object with him about 15 inches long wrapped in brown paper; isn't that right?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you also testified that this man asked about a part for a gun; isn't that right?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you know he had some part of the gun wrapped in this package; didn't he?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. a. And you also testified that this man asked about a part for a gun; isn't that right?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you thought that he had some part of the gun wrapped in this package; isn't that right?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you understand that, Mrs. Oswald?

Mrs. OSWALD. Even if he did, I would not have understood what he was saying because I simply did not know the language, but I don't recall him having any object in his hands such as that referred to here.

Mr. LIEBELER. At any time; is that correct?

Mrs. OSWALD. No; at no time.

Mr. McKENZIE. She is saying he went back to the car and got this part?

Mr. LIEBELER. What were you saying, Mrs. Whitworth?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. He went back to the car and took whatever he had in his hand--he must have put it in the car, because I never noticed any more; she came in, you know, but he came back in the store before she did, because she followed him in and in the store I don't see why that she couldn't remember it, it's different, you know, from other stores that you would go in where you bought soft goods.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you say he brought this package into the store?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. McKenzie, do you wish to inquire as to this package?

Mr. McKENZIE. Mrs. Whitworth, when this man whom you have identified as Lee Harvey Oswald, whom you know now was Lee Harvey Oswald, from his pictures in the paper, came into your store, you stated that he had a package in his hand about 15 to 18 inches long; is that correct?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; I saw him.

Mr. McKENZIE. I say, you had seen that and stated that he had such a package?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. I saw him; yes.

Mr. McKENZIE. How was the package wrapped?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. Loosely in brown paper and you know, it didn't have any strings on it, as far as I remember--it was loosely tied.

Mr. McKENZIE. Well, was it a package in a bag?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; he held it with one hand.

Mr. McKENZIE. He held it with one hand?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes.

Mr. McKENZIE. Did it look like a piece of pipe or did it look like a gun stock, or did it look like a piece of wood or what did it look like that was in the package?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. I didn't see it.

Mr. McKENZIE. How big around was the package?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. It wasn't large I'd say it might have been this big [indicating].

Mr. McKENZIE. You are making a sign with your hands there, with both hands--

Mrs. WHITWORTH. What is that about 2 or 3 inches in diameter?

Mr. McKENZIE. All right.

Mrs. WHITWORTH. And then it was some 15 or 18 inches long.

Mr. McKENZIE. So, the package that he had was 2 or 3 inches in diameter and approximately 18 inches long; is that right?

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Mr. LIEBELER. Fifteen to 18 inches long.

Mrs. WHITWORTH. That's right.

Mr. MCKENZIE. What did he say to you when he came into the store?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. He asked me if I had this particular part, some particular part, but not knowing about guns, I didn't have it. I don't remember it, you know, what he asked for.

Mr. McKENZIE. To the best of your recollection, if you will, state for the purpose of the record here exactly what he said to you?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, he asked me if I had this part, whatever it was, pertaining to a gun.

Mr. MCKENZIE. And what part was it?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. I don't know--because I don't know anything about guns.

Mr. McKENZIE. Can you state it in his words?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. I cannot.

Mr. McKENZIE. You cannot tell us exactly what he said, but this is just what your recollection is of what he said?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. That's right.

Mr. McKENZIE. And what did he say to you then--give us your best recollection.

Mr. LIEBELER. Let me ask a question, if I may. Mrs. Whitworth, isn't it a fact that you told a newspaper reporter that came by your store shortly after this happened what that part was that he was looking for; a Miss Campbell or Mrs. Campbell?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; I didn't. Mrs. Hunter and I discussed it afterwards, and I think that she might know more about guns and she said it was a plunger, but I'm not sure I might have told them that I thought it was a plunger, but I don't remember.

Mr. McKENZIE. And you did not tell the reporter what you thought 'it was; is that right?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; I didn't--I don't believe I ever made the statement that I knew exactly what it was.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, you told the reporter that you thought it was a plunger; isn't that a fact?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. I believe Mrs. Hunter said that. She talked to the same reporter--I don't know what it was, because I don't remember.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did the reporter make a tape recording of the conversation?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. The reporter made a tape recording of my conversation--part of it, I would say.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she ever give you a copy of that tape recording?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. No.

Mr. McKENZIE. Did he tell you what the part that he was looking for was to be used with or for?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; because I didn't ask him.

Mr. McKENZIE. Did he tell you that he was looking for a part for a gun?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, it was for a gun, because he asked for it, you know, that part. He came in because I had a gunsmith sign on the street and there had been one there.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; he didn't tell me that.

Mr. LIEBELER. How did you know that he came in because you had a gunsmith sign on the door?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, I presume that because he asked for a gun part.

Mr. LIEBELER. And what part did he ask for?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. I don't know.

Mr. LIEBELER. How did you know it was a part for a gun?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, I just knew it was--whatever he asked for was, you know, pertaining to a gun, but as far as what it was, I don't know. I didn't pay that much attention to it because I had people coming in every day asking for something for a gun.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you it was a part for a gun?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. I knew that it was at that time.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that it was?

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Mrs. WHITWORTH. That it was?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.

Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; he didn't tell me.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he mention guns?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. We didn't talk about it. We didn't talk about it--when I told him I didn't have the gunsmith, that he had moved, that he was no longer there and when I told him we no longer had a gunsmith we didn't talk about what he wanted any more.

Mr. McKENZIE. To the best of your recollection, and that's based on your conversation with Mrs. Hunter, the part that he asked for was a plunger?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, to the best of my recollection it was, but I wouldn't say definitely that he asked for a plunger.

Mr. McKENZIE. Do you recognize that a plunger is a part of a gun?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. I wouldn't unless somebody told me that it was.

Mr. McKENZIE. Well, you say you recognized the part that he asked for as being a part of a gun?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes.

Mr. MCKENZIE. He didn't mention to you a gun part at that time, did he, or did he?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, he asked in such a way that I knew he was seeking the gun shop and not the furniture store.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was the word "gun" ever used?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes; it was, because I told him the gunsmith had moved.

Mr. McKENZIE. And what did he say then, please, ma'am?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. He turned around and he looked at me. He was standing practically in the front or in the middle of the store and he turned and I had furniture all around me dinette suites over on this side and there was living room furniture to this side, and in front of him there was living room furniture and bedroom furniture and he said, "You have furniture?" I said, "Yes."

He said, "I'm going to need some in about 2 weeks," and I said, "All right, I'll be glad to show you some."

He turns and walks out the door that he came in and took whatever he had in his hand back in the car and that's when Mrs. Oswald followed him back in and he got back in the store before she did.

Mr. McKENZIE. Did you hear them talking together?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. I never did hear her utter one word.

Mr. McKENZIE. Did he say anything to her?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. He never said anything to her other than he might have glanced at her and I thought that they were exchanging glances, you know. She didn't utter a word.

Mr. McKENZIE. And he didn't utter a word to her?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. Not to her--but to me.

Mr. McKENZIE. Now, he said he was going to need some furniture in approximately 2 weeks?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes.

Mr. McKENZIE. At that time did you ask him where he was living?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. I asked him if he was living at an apartment and he said, "Yes."

Mr. McKENZIE. Did he tell you where?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. No.

Mr. McKENZIE. Did he tell you where he was moving to?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; he hadn't got that place yet.

Mr. McKENZIE. Did he ask you if you delivered?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; we didn't get that far along.

Mr. McKENZIE. I see. He didn't like the piece of furniture that you showed to him, is that it

Mrs. WHITWORTH. I probably didn't have what he was looking for. We talked about not having it.

Mr. MCKENZIE. Well, in any event, he didn't seek to buy any of the furniture that you showed him?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. No.

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Mr. McKENZIE. Did he state what he was looking for, did he tell you what he was looking for?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. I asked him what kind of furniture that he was looking, and I suggested furnitures to him if he bought new furniture. I said, "Do you like Early American, or do you like Danish Modern?" And we exchanged those words and he never uttered what he liked or anything. He didn't say what he liked.

Mr. MCKENZIE. Now, Mrs. Whitworth, there had been a gun shop in that particular location before you moved in with your furniture store?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; I leased one corner of my store to a gunsmith.

Mr. McKENZIE. And what was his name?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. His name was Warren Graves.

Mr. LIEBELER. Does he still operate a gun shop?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; he doesn't.

Mr. LIEBELER. Does he still live in the Irving area?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. He still lives in Irving.

Mr. McKENZIE. Had you had any previous experience with guns?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. Other than just seeing guns in that little corner of the building, it seems like, and you know, hearing conversations on guns, but I knew nothing about guns.

Mr. McKENZIE. Well, did you know anything about the various nomenclature or the various parts of a gun?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; I didn't.

Mr. McKENZIE. But you did recognize that a plunger was a part of a gun when this man came in?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, in the way that he asked for it, I knew that it was a gun part that he wanted because I didn't have it.

Mr. McKENZIE. In what way did he ask for it, explain what you mean by that?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. As well as I can remember, I told him we didn't have a gunsmith and he asked for this part and I don't remember really just what he asked for, but whatever it was, it led me to know that he wanted a gunsmith, which we didn't have.

Mr. MCKENZIE. Were you in the front of the store when he came in?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes; I was in the cash stand.

Mr. McKENZIE. Was Mrs. Hunter still sitting there on the platform chair?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. She was sitting there in the front.

Mr. MCKENZIE. And how far away was she from you when he came in?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. I was behind the stand, which I guess that was probably 4 or 5 feet in squares and I would have had to have gotten out of the stand and walked clear around and Mrs. Hunter, I imagine, was probably 8 feet from me.

Mr. McKENZIE. Was she as close to you as I am now--just directly across, I mean?

Mrs. WHITWORTH Yes.

Mr. MCKENZIE. About the same distance that we are apart now?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. There was a counter between us.

Mr. McKENZIE. And we are about 8 feet apart now, aren't we?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes.

Mr. McKENZIE. When the man came in, was there anyone else in the store other than Mrs. Hunter and yourself?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. I don't believe there was anyone in the store but Mrs. Hunter and myself. Now, there was probably someone on the outside.

Mr. McKENZIE. Now, if I may direct this question to Mrs. Hunter; Mrs. Hunter, do you recall any of the conversation that you heard Mrs. Whitworth testify about this morning?

Mrs. HUNTER. Well, when he drove up in the car and I thought it was my friends from Houston and when I seen it wasn't, I sat back down in the chair and he went down to the door on that end of the building and went in and he asked her, he says, "Where is your gunsmith?"

I remember that and he had something--I won't say just what it was, because I wasn't particularly interested. I wasn't in her being down there at the time. She told him that the gunsmith was moved--that he wasn't there, and she showed him down the street where to go to.

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Mr. McKENZIE. Where did she tell him to go?

Mrs. HUNTER. Well, now, I don't know, but it Was back down east on Irving Boulevard.

Mrs. WHITWORTH. There was a gunsmith or a sports shop or something back down there.

Mrs. HUNTER. There was a sport shop down there where she showed him to go. I remember that much of it.

Mr. McKENZIE. You said this man got out of the car and came to the other door, the door back to the back?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. He came to the west door.

Mrs. HUNTER. I believe if I could draw a picture of it I could explain it better that way.

[The witness proceeded to draw while testifying.] There's a partition right here and there are table and chairs right back in here, and over here is where her telephone is and where her table and there's a little counter right back in here, right back down this way, and right back here was the gunsmith where he had that leased, and all of this back here was furniture and this partition over here these little tables and chairs over here that looked kinda like a care where you would sit, at the tables and all. Over here, all there was was used clothes and things.

Mr. McKENZIE. Where is the door?

Mrs. HUNTER. Now, this is a door where I was sitting in the chair right here looking out and he come in by this door right over here and come up to where her counter was. I was sitting right here in the chair and she comes back out here and looks down this way and showed him which way to go to where this gunsmith was and when he goes back to the car and put what he had in his hand--he went back to the car for the purpose of that, and when he come back in, he come back in this way. When she got out with the children, she come in this door right here that I had got up and opened after I sat down there.

Mr. McKENZIE. That would be the east door?

Mrs. HUNTER. Well, yes; I guess so, and she walked on around and I just sat back down and I didn't pay her any attention or anything and they had gone back into the back here and she walked on along right along in here and the little girl was pulling, hanging on to her dress tail and she either told her to be quiet or said "shhh" or something like that, and that is the only thing that I heard the woman say.

Well, he goes back and goes back and gets in the car and she followed him out--she put the little girl in the car, then she got in the car, and he didn't offer to help her no way putting the babies in the car and he was talking to her and looking back down this way and he turned and when he pointed, I said, "You can't go back down that way, it's a one way street. You will have to go up here to the red light and turn to your left and come back around."

Mr. McKENZIE. When you told him that, where were you standing?

Mrs. HUNTER. I was standing right in this door here.

Mr. MCKENZIE. Right at the curb?

Mrs. HUNTER. No; the car was--let's say it was about like this, because there is a porch or a thing with a top over it, you know, and he catercornered down this way and I was right over here [indicating].

Mr. McKENZIE. Now, at that time when you were standing in the doorway and he had gotton in the car and you told him he could not go that way, where was Mrs. Oswald sitting?

Mrs. HUNTER. She was in the car by him and the little girl was standing up in the seat between them and she had the tiny baby in her hands.

Mr. McKENZIE. And was it a two-door automobile or a four-door automobile?

Mrs. HUNTER. Well, I wouldn't say as to that, but I believe it was a two-door, but I wouldn't swear to it.

Mr. MCKENZIE. And he was behind the wheel?

Mrs. HUNTER. Yes.

Mr. McKENZIE. And she was sitting next to him?

Mrs. HUNTER. Yes.

Mr. McKENZIE. With the child between them?

Mrs. HUNTER. Yes.

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Mr. McKENZIE. And there was no one else in the car other than the baby?

Mrs. HUNTER. If it was, they was down in the floorboard of the car and when he started out, he pulled out back that way, and I said, "Don't go back that way, it's a one-way street." I said, "Go down to the red light." Mr. McKENZIE. What did he say then?

Mrs. HUNTER. He didn't say anything; he didn't thank me nor nothing.

Mr. LIEBELER. But from where you were standing you could see him drive the automobile out into Irving Boulevard, going down to the next red light where he made a turn and drove out of sight; isn't that right?

Mrs. HUNTER. Well, he went down Irving Boulevard--I told him to go to the red light, but she wasn't interested in what he was going to buy at all.

Mr. LIEBELER. In any event, you saw them drive out of the area?

Mrs. HUNTER. Yes; I sure did.

Mr. LIEBELER. And they were driving west?

Mrs. HUNTER. I'll stake my life on that, that's how positive I am to it.

Mr. LIEBELER. He was driving the right way down the street?

Mrs. HUNTER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Could this car have been an Oldsmobile?

Mrs. HUNTER. No, sir; it was a Ford--it was just like the one that my friends had in Houston.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are sure it wasn't a foreign car of any kind?

Mrs. HUNTER. Oh, no; no.

Mr. LIEBELER. It was a Ford?

Mrs. HUNTER. It was a 1957--I think it was a 1957 Ford instead of a 1958.

Mr. McKENZIE. Blue and white?

Mrs. HUNTER. Blue and white yes, sir.

Mr. McKENZIE. Blue on the bottom and white on the top?

Mrs. HUNTER. Yes, sir; I think I've got a picture of the car that my friends--the one that I was waiting for. Could I ask her a question?

[Addressing Marina Oswald.] Don't you have a rinse on your hair now?

*Mrs. OSWALD. A rinse yes. My hair is dark--not too dark.

Mrs. HUNTER. A dirty blonde.

*Mrs. OSWALD. Well, thank you.

Mrs. HUNTER. Like his [indicating Mr. Liebeler].

Mr. McKENZIE. I don't have any more questions. Mrs. Whitworth, we certainly do thank you and Mrs. Hunter, we certainly do thank you very much.

Mrs. HUNTER. How soon are you going to be through with us--the reason I want to know--I am going to be out of town next week. [Addressing Marina Oswald.] It's nice I met you in person now and your babies are very sweet.

(At this point Mrs. Whitworth and Mrs. Hunter left the hearing room.)

Mr. McKENZIE. Marina, do you remember a blue and white car?

*Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know--what kind of car did Mrs. Paine have?

Mr. MCKENZIE. Do you know what kind of car Mr. Paine had?

*Mrs. OSWALD. No; I don't.

Mr. McKENZIE. What kind of car did Mrs. Paine have?

*Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know that either, but all the time Mrs. Paine, she take me to the store.

Mr. MCKENZIE. Mr. Gregory, what do you do in Fort Worth?

Mr. GREGORY. I am a petroleum engineer.

Mr. McKENZIE. And are you on your own over there?

Mr. GREGORY. Well, half of my time is my own and the other half of my time is with a company on salary, and I am chairman of an engineering committee.

Mr. LIEBELER. I believe you have previously testified, Marina, that the only time Lee came up to the Paine's, except on the weekends, in Irving, was on Thursday night, November 21, 1963?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; he was all the time there on weekends for the 5th or the 3d of November or September?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; I was trying to figure out what day in the week that he was there when you all were supposed to have been in this store it would be Wednesday or Thursday, but Lee was never in Irving on Wednesday or Thursday at any time; is that right.

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*Mrs. OSWALD. Just one time when he came to see me the night before the assassination.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are absolutely sure about that?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Oh, sure, if you don't believe me, ask Mrs. Paine. You know, if he has a job--maybe he don't have a job then?

Mr. McKENZIE. At the time when he didn't have a job, did he come?

*Mrs. OSWALD. November he had a job.

Mr. McKENZIE. But when he didn't have a job, did he come out there during the week other than weekends.

Mrs. OSWALD. He spent 2 days on one occasion during the week when he had no job.

*Mrs. OSWALD. He had job at that time in November.

Mr. McKENZIE. Now, before Rachel was born, did he come during the week?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; I remember that only once he came only once before Rachel was born during the week.

Mr. McKENZIE. After Rachel was born at Parkland Hospital, did he come during the week up until the time he got a job?

*Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. He didn't come to Irving during the week at any time after Rachel was born, as a matter of fact, except on Thursday night?

Mrs. OSWALD. Rachel was born either Saturday night or Sunday.

Mr. LIEBELER. October the 20th?

*Mrs. OSWALD. When Rachel was born?

Mr. GREGORY. She wants to say what day of the week--it was either the 19th or 20th of October, but she wants to know the day of the week.

Mr. LIEBELER. Sunday.

Mrs. OSWALD. He was at home the weekend before Rachel was born. He sent me to the hospital Sunday night at 9 o'clock.

*Mrs. OSWALD. Well, he go working the next morning and he come to see Ruth Paine and she take him to the hospital to see me and baby and he spent the night in her house.

Mr. LIEBELER. What day did Lee come to see you in the hospital, do you remember?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Monday.

Mr. LIEBELER. And on Monday night he stayed at Ruth Paine's house; is that right?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And then you went home the next morning?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; to Ruth Paine's. Lee was at work and Ruth Paine take me from the hospital.

Mr. McKENZIE. You were in the hospital Sunday, Monday, and left Tuesday?

*Mrs. OSWALD. No; I was just Sunday night--I was one and a half days--34 hours or 36 hours or something like that.

Mr. LIEBELER. So, that on Monday, October 21, Lee came to Irving after work?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And came to the hospital to see you with Mrs. Paine?

*Mrs. OSWALD. With Mrs. Paine.

Mr. LIEBELER. And stayed at Mrs. Paine's house that night and went back to work on Tuesday morning?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And he did not come to the hospital at any other time or to take you home; is that right?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. After Rachel was born and after Lee had been there on Monday to see you, did he come back to Irving at any time during the week except the night before the assassination?

Mrs. OSWALD. No; he came to Irving only the weekends--only on weekends.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, before the time that Rachel was born, you said that he came to Irving during the week and spent 2 days before he got his job; was that just after he came back from Mexico?

Mrs. OSWALD. He spent 1 day in Irving after he came back from Mexico, and

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the following day he went to look for work and he was looking for work all week long and returned to Irving on Saturday.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he come to work during the week at any time after he got his job and up until Rachel was born, except on weekends?

Mrs. OSWALD. As I remember--not.

Mr. LIEBELER. Let's take a short recess for lunch, and we will resume at 1:30 p.m.

(Whereupon, at 12:30 p.m., the proceeding was recessed.)

Mrs. Lee Harvey Oswald

Page 292

TESTIMONY OF MRS. LEE HARVEY OSWALD RESUMED

The proceeding was reconvened at 1:50 p.m.

Mr. LIEBELER. You previously told the Commission that Lee Oswald prepared a notebook in which he kept plans and notes about his attack on General Walker; is that right?

Mrs. OSWALD. I saw this book only after the attempt on Walker's life. He burned it or disposed of it.

Mr. LIEBELER Tell me when you first saw the notebook?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Three days after this happened.

Mr. LIEBELER. You saw the notebook 3 days after it had happened?

*Mrs. OSWALD. I think so.

Mr. LIEBELER. How did you come to see it then?

Mrs. OSWALD. When he was destroying it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is that the only time you ever saw it?

Mrs. OSWALD. I saw on several occasions that he was writing something in the book, but he was hiding it from me and he was locking it in his room.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he actually lock the door to his room when he left the apartment?

Mrs. OSWALD. The door to his room could be locked only from the inside and he was locking the door when he was writing in the book, otherwise, he was hiding it in some secret place and he warned me not to mess around and look around his things. He asked me not to go into his room and look around.

Mr. LIEBELER. You saw him writing in this book before the night that he shot at General Walker?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Not before the night.

Mr. MCKENZIE. After?

*Mrs. OSWALD. No; not before--1 month before, but not every day, you know, sometimes. I saw him writing on several occasions in that book prior to the attempt on Walker's life, only I did not know what he was writing.

Mr. LIEBELER. Even though you could have gone into this room to look at the book, you did not do so, because Lee had told you not to; is that correct?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; he forbade me looking around in his room, and so I did not see the book or look at it.

Mr. LIEBELER. But 3 days after he shot at General Walker, you saw him destroy the book; is that correct?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. How did he destroy it?

Mrs. OSWALD. He burned it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where?

Mrs. OSWALD. In the apartment house on Neeley.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where in the apartment?

Mrs. OSWALD. He burned it with matches over a wash bowl in the bathroom.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you first became aware of this when you smelled it burning; is that correct?

Mrs. OSWALD. I did not see the book, but I saw him writing in this book several times, but after he burns the book he told me what was in that book and he showed me several photographs. Before he burned the book, he showed me several photographs that were in the book. I asked him what the pictures were and he said, "Well, this one is the picture of the house of General Walker's--his residence."

Mr. LIEBELER. And that picture was pasted in the notebook; is that right?

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Mrs. OSWALD. No; it was loose in the book--I really don't remember.

Mr. McKENZIE. Establish what kind of book it was and the size of it.

*Mrs. OSWALD. The size it looked like this size of paper.

Mr. LIEBELER. It was a book something like the reporter is using?

*Mrs. OSWALD. No; a legal size paper--it was a legal size notebook--this size.

Mr. LIEBELER. So, the notebook was about the same size as a legal size pad; is that right?

*Mrs. OSWALD [nodding head for an affirmative reply].

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you say anything to Lee when you saw him destroying this book about why he prepared it and why he left it there in the apartment when he went to shoot General Walker?

Mrs. OSWALD. No; I did not. No; I never asked him why he left it in the apartment, why he left his book in the apartment while he went to shoot General Walker. I did not ask him why he left it in the apartment. I asked him what for was he making all these entries in the book and he answered that he wanted to leave a complete record so that all the details would be in it. He told me that these entries consisted of the description of the house of General Walker, the distances, the location, and the distribution of windows in it.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did he want to leave this record for?

Mrs. OSWALD. All these details--all these records, that he was writing it either for his own use so that he would know what to do when the time came to shoot General Walker. I am guessing that perhaps he did it to appear to be a brave man in case he were arrested, but that is my supposition. I was so afraid after this attempt on Walker's life that the police might come to the house. I was afraid that there would be evidence in the house such as this book.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to Lee about that?

Mrs. OSWALD. Oh, yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did you say and what did he say?

*Mrs. OSWALD. What did I say?

Mr. LIEBELER. And what did he say?

*Mrs. OSWALD. And what did he say?

Mr. LIEBELER. Both.

Mrs. OSWALD. I told him that it is best not to have this kind of stuff in the house this book.

Mr. LIEBELER. When did you tell him that?

Mrs. OSWALD. At the time he was destroying it--he showed me this book after this attempt on Walker's life, and I suggested to him that it would be awfully bad to keep a thing like that in the house.

Mr. LIEBELER. When did he first show it to you?

Mrs. OSWALD. Three days after the attempt--3 days after this attempt, he took the rifle from the house, took it somewhere and buried it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Three days after the attempt?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. So that he actually took the rifle out of the house and took it away and hid it somewhere?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mrs. OSWALD. No; the day Lee shot at Walker, he buried the rifle because when he came home and told me that he shot at General Walker and I asked him where the rifle was and he said he buried it.

Mr. LIEBELER. He shot at General Walker on April 10, which was on Wednesday.

*Mrs. OSWALD. Wednesday?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; it was on Wednesday.

Mrs. OSWALD. As I remember, it was the weekend--Saturday or Sunday when Lee brought the rifle back home.

Mr. LIEBELER. What weekend following the time he shot at General Walker?

*Mrs. OSWALD. The same weekend of the same week.

Mr. LIEBELER. Had he destroyed the notebook before he brought the rifle back?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. How long after he brought the rifle back did he destroy the book?

Mrs. OSWALD. He destroyed the book approximately an hour after he brought the rifle home.

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Mr. LIEBELER. After he brought the rifle home, then, he showed you the book?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you said it was not a good idea to keep this book?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And then he burned the book?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ask him why he had not destroyed the book before he actually went to shoot General Walker?

Mrs. OSWALD. It never came to me, myself, to ask him that question.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see him take the pictures, the photographs, out of the book when he destroyed it?

Mrs. OSWALD. When I saw him burning the book--I'm not positive that he burned the photographs or not with the book. He retained the negatives and he preserved either the photographs themselves or the negatives. I know that they have the photographs and I don't know whether they got the originals or whether they made them from the negatives.

Mr. McKENZIE. Now, when you say "they," Marina, who do you mean by "they?"

Mrs. OSWALD. FBI, Secret Service, and the President's Commission.

Mr. LIEBELER. I show you Commission Exhibit No. 5, which is a copy of one of the photographs that was found among these effects after the assassination.

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Does that appear to be one of the photographs about which you were speaking?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; that's one.

Mr. LIEBELER. Are you absolutely sure about that?

*Mrs. OSWALD. No; I don't remember when Lee showed me the picture that it was this.

Mrs. OSWALD. When I was first shown this picture, I remember that there was a license plate number on this car.

Mr. LIEBELER. When Lee showed you the picture, there was a license plate number on the car?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. As shown in Commission Exhibit No. 5; is that right?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. When you look at this picture you see that there is a black mark on the back of this, do you know what makes that black mark?

*Mrs. OSWALD. No; but I think when the Commission showed me this picture the number was there.

Mr. McKENZIE. License plate?

Mrs. OSWALD. I would have remembered this black spot if it were there at the time the Commission showed me this, or the FBI. When the FBI first showed me this photograph I remember that the license plate, the number of the license plate was on this car, was on the photograph.

*Mrs. OSWALD. It had the white and black numbers. There was no black spot that I see on it now. When Lee showed me this photograph there was the number on the license plate on this picture. I would have remembered it if there were a black spot on the back of the car where the license plate would be.

Mr. LIEBELER. The original of this picture, the actual photograph, has a hole through it. That's what makes this black spot.

*Mrs. OSWALD. This is from the negative?

Mr. GREGORY. This picture was made from the original photograph, rather than from a negative?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; it's simply a picture of a picture.

Mrs. OSWALD. When the FBI and Lee showed me this particular picture--

*Mrs. OSWALD. Not this big size.

Mrs. OSWALD. This photograph--it was a smaller size.

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.

Mrs. OSWALD. There was a license plate on this car.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember that very clearly?

Mrs. OSWALD. When Lee showed it to me, I remember very distinctly that there was a license plate on this car. When this business about General Walker came up I would have remembered this black spot.

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Mr. LIEBELER. Or the hole?

Mrs. OSWALD. Or the hole in the original--I would have remembered it.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you remember, then, that the license plate was actually on that car when you saw the picture?

Mrs. OSWALD. This black spot is so striking I would have remembered it if it were on the photograph that Lee showed me or the FBI.

Mr. LIEBELER. Let's address ourselves also, not just to the black spot but to the possibility that they may have shown you the actual original photograph on which there is no black spot, but which has a hole right through the photograph.

Mrs. OSWALD. There was no hole in the original when they showed it to me I'm positive of it.

Mr. McKENZIE. All right, let me ask her a question.

Mrs. OSWALD. This is the first time I saw a black spot or have heard about a hole in the original photograph.

*Mrs. OSWALD. Why does the Commission not ask me about this?

Mr. McKENZIE. Well, the Commission is asking you about it now, because Mr. Liebeler represents the Commission.

*Mrs. OSWALD. I know it.

Mr. McKENZIE. Let me ask you--when Lee showed you this picture, which is Commission Exhibit No. 5, had it been folded over?

*Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. McKENZIE. At that time did the car that appears in the picture, did it have a hole in the picture?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. McKENZIE. When the FBI or the Secret Service showed you this picture, had it been folded?

*Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. McKENZIE. Who showed you the picture the FBI or the Secret Service or the Commission?

*Mrs. OSWALD. The FBI first and then the Commission.

Mr. McKENZIE. Now, at the time the Commission showed you the picture in Washington, was there a hole shown in the picture where the cat's license plate would be?

*Mrs. OSWALD. No; I don't know what happened to this picture, because when the Commission showed me the picture there was not this spot here.

Mrs. OSWALD. If there was a hole, I would have asked them right away why that hole is there or the black spot.

Mr. McKENZIE. Off the record, please.

(Discussion between Mr. McKenzie and Mr. Liebeler to the effect that the picture might have been creased in the process of making a print from the original photograph.)

Mr. McKENZIE. One more question---is this the first time that you have seen the picture when there was a black spot in the back of the automobile?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; the first time.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever seen a picture like this that had a hole in it?

*Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think of anything else about this Walker incident that you haven't already told the Commission that you think we should know that you can remember?

Mrs. OSWALD. I think I have told all I know about it--I can't remember anything else now.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did it seem strange to you at the time, Marina, that Lee did make these careful plans, take pictures, and write it up in a notebook, and then when he went out to shoot at General Walker he left all that incriminating evidence fight in the house so that if he had ever been stopped and questioned and if that notebook had been found, it would have clearly indicated that he was the one that shot at General Walker?

Mrs. OSWALD. He was such a person that nothing seems peculiar to me for what he did. I had so many surprises from him that nothing surprised me. He may have wished to appear such a brave man or something.

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Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever have the feeling that he really wanted to be caught in connection with the Walker affair?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know how to answer that--maybe yes and maybe no. I couldn't read his mind.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think that the picture that he asked you to take when he was holding the rifle and the newspapers, and that he then autographed for June, do you think that was connected with the Walker thing at all?

Mrs. OSWALD. I think so, because it happened just before he went to shoot General Walker. Then, I asked him why he was taking this silly picture and he answered that he simply wanted to send it to the newspaper.

Mr. LIEBELER. The Militant?

*Mrs. OSWALD. The Militant.

Mrs. OSWALD. I didn't attach any significance to what he said at the time, but he added, "That maybe some day June will remember me." He must have had something in his mind--some grandiose plans.

Mr. LIEBELER. You told the Commission that in November 1962, you stayed with Anna Meller and with Mrs. Ford for 2 weeks?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; 1 week.

Mr. LIEBELER. One week with each person?

*Mrs. OSWALD. I think maybe I was 3 days at Anna Meller's house- yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. How long do you think you were with them altogether?

*Mrs. OSWALD. One week or 10 days.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you also told us that you went to Anna Meller's in a taxicab?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were you separated from Lee at any other time in the fall of 1962 except this time?

Mrs. OSWALD. The only time I was separated from Lee, not because we quarreled, but because I lived with Elena Hall in Fort Worth.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you went to Anna Meller's one night in a taxicab?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you bring any of the things for the baby, the furniture or your clothes or things like that to Anna Meller's?

*Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. At no time?

*Mrs. OSWALD. No; I just take baby and bottle.

Mr. LIEBELER. What about the next day, did you get anything over to the Meller's house the next day?

*Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mrs. OSWALD. No; after a couple of days Anna Meller went and bought some diapers for the baby, then, I wanted to take my things away from Lee and George De Mohrenschildt took me in his car and we got the things from the house.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you take the things then?

Mrs. OSWALD. To Anna Meller's house.

Mr. LIEBELER. How long did you stay at Anna Meller's house before Mohrenschildt brought the things there?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Two or three days.

Mr. LIEBELER. And how long did you stay at Anna Meller's after De Mohrenschildt brought your things there and before you went to Mrs. Ford's?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Two more days.

Mr. LIEBELER. When De Mohrenschildt came and .took these things, they filled up his whole car almost, didn't they? There were quite a lot of things?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you take these things from Anna Meller's over to the Fords' house?

Mrs. OSWALD. Only the bare necessities.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did you do with the other things that you had brought to Anna Meller's?

Mrs. OSWALD. They remained at Anna Meller's.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who took the things from Meller's to Ford's?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember.

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Mr. LIEBELER. Was it George De Mohrenschildt?

*Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was it Mr. Ford or Mrs. Ford?

*Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what day it was that De Mohrenschildt moved these things for you, what day of the week?

Mrs. OSWALD. The weekend--probably Sunday.

Mr. LIEBELER. What day did you first go to Anna Meller's; do you remember?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember.

*Mrs. OSWALD. About 4 days before.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Lee know .where you went the night you left him?

*Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. When did he first find out where you were?

Mrs. OSWALD. George De Mohrenschildt knew that I was at Anna Meller's and .he telephoned Lee, but he did not tell Lee where I was. He asked him to come to his house where I would also be at the time so that we could discuss the things.

Mr. LIEBELER. The day you went to Cake the things to Anna Meller's, De Mohrenschildt went to your apartment in his car; is that right?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who was with him?

*Mrs. OSWALD. His wife.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were you with him?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. So, that you and Mrs. De Mohrenschildt and George De Mohrenschildt came in the car out to the apartment?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And got these other things?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And left?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was Lee there when you came?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. What happened when the three of you came to the apartment?

Mrs. OSWALD. Nothing happened except he was very angry and I took things.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did he say?

*Mrs. OSWALD. He did not want me to leave.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did he say?

*Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he talk to De Mohrenschildt?

Mrs. OSWALD. I was collecting things, so I don't know what transpired--I was busy. Lee was helping me to gather the things, because he said he didn't want anything--to take the whole works.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember that Lee first said that he was going to tear your dresses up and break all the baby things if you left and went away?

*Mrs. OSWALD. No; maybe that's George De Mohrenschildt's joke.

Mr. LIEBELER. That's what George De Mohrenschildt told the Commission.

*Mrs. OSWALD. I know it.

Mr. LIEBELER. I don't think he meant it as a joke when he told it.

*Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know.

Mrs. OSWALD. Maybe Lee said that to George De Mohrenschildt. I do not know whether Lee said that to George De Mohrenschildt or not. I was busy gathering the things.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did there appear to be an argument or a discussion between, Lee and De Mohrenschildt at that time?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't think so--perhaps they were speaking together--talking English and I didn't understand them.

Mr. LIEBELER. How would they usually talk to each other--in Russian or in English?

Mrs. OSWALD. Both Russian and English.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did George Bouhe have anything to do with your leaving Lee this time?

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Mrs. OSWALD. George Bouhe told me that if I wanted to leave Lee, he would help me at first, provided I would not go back to Lee. Bouhe did not interfere into my and Lee's affairs, but he wanted to know if I wanted to leave him permanently, he would help me. He told me that if I wanted to leave him for good, then he would help me out, but not if I would go back to him because the second time nobody would help me.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, in fact, you did later go back to Lee; didn't you?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; he's my husband.

Mr. LIEBELER. And it is also a fact that when you did, George Bouhe was displeased--unhappy?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And in fact he even asked you to give back to him the dictionary that he had given you; didn't he?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And he helped you no more after that?

Mrs. OSWALD. That's correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. George De Mohrenschildt recalls this Sunday morning differently-he said that he came there with his wife and that you were still at the apartment with Lee, and that he and his wife came in and told Lee that they were going to take you away because he had been beating you in the past, and that he convinced you to leave and that you all left then that Sunday morning and he took you over to Meller's. He does not say you had previously gone to Meller's.

Mrs. OSWALD. That's not so. I was not at the apartment with Lee. I came that Sunday with the De Mohrenschildts to the apartment. I was at Anna Meller's and George De Mohrenschildt told me to be at his house at a certain hour, 10 o'clock, or sometime, and that Lee will come to his house, and Anna Meller took me. George Bouhe came to Anna Meller's and took me to George De Mohrenschildt's house and Lee came to De Mohrenschildt's house in a bus. Lee came to De Mohrenschildt's house on a bus.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was this the same Sunday?

Mrs. OSWALD. That same Sunday.

Mr. McKENZIE. Later in the day?

Mrs. OSWALD. Ten o'clock or eleven.

Mr. McKENZIE. And before you went to the apartment?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. MCKENZIE. Did Lee and Mrs. De Mohrenschildt and George De Mohrenschildt go to the apartment together in George De Mohrenschildt's car?

Mrs. OSWALD. I do not remember right now whether Lee left after this confrontation at De Mohrenschildt's house, whether Lee left first or whether we all left De Mohrenschildt's house together, but I do remember distinctly that I went in the car with George De Mohrenschildt and his wife. I did not go with Lee and so it is impossible that they came later.

Mr. LIEBELER. What happened at De Mohrenschildt's house this morning--- what was said there?

Mrs. OSWALD. De Mohrenschildt was telling Lee that that was not the way to treat his wife and Lee begged me to stay with him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was De Mohrenschildt's wife there at this time?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. How did the meeting at De Mohrenschildt's house end; do you remember?

Mrs. OSWALD. I did not agree to go back with Lee and either Lee left by the bus first, or, I don't remember it clearly what happened.

*Mrs. OSWALD. No; I don't know what happened--I don't remember if Lee goes with us or if he goes first.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you do remember that Lee was at the apartment on Elsbeth Street when you went there to get the clothes and things for the baby?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. When you came there, did he just help you load the things up?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. He didn't seem to be angry about anything?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; he was angry. That's why he helped me.

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Mr. LIEBELER. How did you come to go back to Lee, and that was when he came out to Anna Ray's and met you there?

Mrs. OSWALD. He telephoned me several times begging me to return and he came to Anna Ray's and he cried and you know a woman's heart--I went back to him. He said he didn't care to live if I did not return.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who paid the taxi fare when you went over to Anna Meller's the first time?

*Mrs. OSWALD. The first time Anna Meller.

Mr. LIEBELER. The Commission has been advised that some time in the spring of 1963, you, yourself, either threatened to or actually tried to commit suicide. Can you tell us about that?

Mrs. OSWALD. Do I have the right now not to discuss that?

Mr. LIEBELER. If you don't want to discuss that, certainly, but I really would like to have Lee's reaction to the whole thing. But if you don't want to tell us about it--all right.

Mrs. OSWALD. At my attempt at suicide, Lee struck me in the face and told me to go to bed and that I should never attempt to do that--only foolish people would do it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell him that you were going to do it, or did you actually try?

Mrs. OSWALD. No; I didn't tell him, but I tried.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you don't want to discuss it any further?

*Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have a copy of Lee's diary?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes ;---I have that now.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have a copy of the diary before it was printed in the Dallas Morning News?

*Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. McKENZIE. You might also ask her if I had a copy of it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether or not Mr. McKenzie had a copy of the diary?

*Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know--ask him. I don't know what you have in your office---I'm sorry.

Mr. McKENZIE. Let the record show that Mr. McKenzie does not have a copy of the diary, and that Mrs. Oswald states she did not have a copy of the diary prior to its being published by the Dallas Morning News, and for the purposes of the record the Life magazine and Time, Inc., first gave me a copy of the diary, and I in turn furnished a copy of the diary to Mrs. Oswald from the copy that was given to me by Time, Inc.

Mr. LIEBELER. So, that now, you do have a copy of the diary; is this correct?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And it was given to you by Mr. McKenzie after he got it from Time-Life, Inc.?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you make an arrangement with Life magazine to give them permission to publish the diary?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; after it has been published in the newspapers. I, myself, would not have been willing for it to be published in the first place.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Life magazine pay you anything for the privilege of publishing the diary?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; $20,000. I would like to know where the Dallas Morning News got the diary.

Mr. LIEBELER I can tell you this much, Mrs. Oswald, that the Dallas Morning News did not get a copy of the diary from the Commission. Other than that, I can't say anything.

Mrs. OSWALD. If it is possible, I would like to determine where they got it.

Mr. LIEBELER. When did you enter into this arrangement with Life magazine and how did it come about, Mrs. Oswald; will you tell us?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember what day--

Mr. McKENZIE. It was after it was published in the Dallas Morning News.

Mr. LIEBELER. Am I correct in stating that the transaction was negotiated

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between representatives of Life magazine and your attorney, Mr. William A. McKenzie? An attorney here in Dallas?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. I have no more questions.

*Mrs. OSWALD. Thank you.

Mr. McKENZIE. I have a couple of questions. Marina, there is a difference, is there not, in your mind between a Marxist and a Communist?

*Mrs. OSWALD. What?

Mrs. OSWALD. I never was interested in this so I don't know--it makes me no difference.

Mr. McKENZIE. A Communist ordinarily is known as a party member; is that correct?

Mrs. OSWALD. A Communist does not necessarily have to be a member of the party. People that believe in communism do not necessarily have a party card. The fact is that a Communist is not necessarily a member of the party. He may be a Communist by his choice but not necessarily a member of the party.

Mr. McKENZIE. Well, Lee was a Marxist by his choice; is that correct?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know what he thought.

Mr. McKENZIE. That's all.

Mrs. OSWALD. I think he was just a sick person. He didn't know himself what he was.

Mr. LIEBELER. Mrs. Oswald, as we discussed this morning, we want to go out to Irving and all look at the store and see if it refreshes your recollection as to whether or not you were there, so at this time we will adjourn the deposition, to be resumed out at the location of this store in Irving, if that is agreeable with counsel for Mrs. Oswald.

Mr. McKENZIE. It is agreeable.

(At this point the proceedings of this deposition were adjourned and Messrs. Liebeler and McKenzie, Marina Oswald, the Reporter, Odell Oliver, and Secret Service Agents John Joe Howlett and Forrest Sorrels in charge of the Dallas Secret Service office traveled to Irving, walked through the store heretofore referred to, departed the same and while Standing in front of the store the following proceedings were had:)

Mr. LIEBELER. Let the record show that we are resuming the deposition in front of 149 East Irving Boulevard, Irving, Tex., and the record will indicate that Mr. McKenzie and Mrs. Oswald, Mr. Sorrels and Mr. Howlett, the Court Reporter and I walked inside of the building here at 149 East Irving Boulevard and walked around inside and outside, and this is at 3:45 p.m., in an effort to refresh Mrs. Oswald's recollection as to whether or not she has ever been in this store.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you had a chance to go through the store, Marina?

*Mrs. OSWALD. No; this is the first time.

Mr. LIEBELER. This is the first time you have been here?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you have now looked at the outside of the store and looked through the inside?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you are quite sure you have never been here before?

*Mrs. OSWALD. I'm sure I never was here before I am quite sure.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are sure of that in spite of the testimony that you heard this morning from Mrs. Whitworth and Mrs. Hunter; is that right?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; that's-right. She told how I was dressed with a rose jacket--that's true I had a rose jacket.

Mr. LIEBELER. She may have seen you somewhere?

Mr. LIEBELER. You are now standing directly in front of the store at 149 East Irving Boulevard, aren't you?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you are sure you have never been here before?

*Mrs. OSWALD. No; I have never been here before.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have anything to add, Mr. McKenzie?

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Mr. McKENZIE. No.

*Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know if I were inside this store, but I don't recall it now.

Mr. LIEBELER. You don't recognize this store as a place you have ever been before?

*Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. I have no further questions, and this will adjourn the deposition.

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