HELEN MARKHAM
Volume III page 305-322/resume 340-342
Volume VII 499-506
TESTIMONY OF MRS. HELEN
MARKHAM
The CHAIRMAN. The purpose of the session of the Commission is for the
purpose of taking testimony on the assassination of President Kennedy, and it is
our information that you have some evidence concerning it and we want to ask you
some questions concerning it. You are willing to testify, are you?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Do all I can.
The CHAIRMAN. All right. Will you stand up and be sworn, please?
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you give before this Commission will
be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I do.
The CHAIRMAN. You may be seated. Mr. Ball will ask you the questions.
Mr. BALL. Mrs. Markham, what is your address?
Mrs. MARKHAM. 328 East Ninth.
Mr. BALL. In
Mrs. MARKHAM.
Mr. BALL. Where were you born, Mrs. Markham?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Where was I born?
Mr. BALL. The Commission would like to know something of your past life
and experience, where you were born and your education so I will just ask you a
few questions like that.
Take it easy, this is
just--
Mrs. MARKHAM. I am very shook up.
Mr. BALL. This is a very informal little conference here.
Mrs. MARKHAM. Well, do you want me to tell you about my life?
Mr. BALL. Yes. Just tell us briefly where you were born and where you
went to school and things of that kind.
Mrs. MARKHAM. I was born in
Mr. DULLES. Are your brothers older or younger?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I have one older than I. And I went to live with my aunt
and uncle in
Mr. BALL. How far did you go through school?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Eighth grade.
Mr. BALL. Then did you go to work?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No; I got married. I got married.
Mr. BALL. How long were you married?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Me?
Mr. BALL. I understand you are not married at the present time?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No. I am not married. I would have been married 25 years
this past July.
Mr. BALL. Were you a housewife for a while while you were married?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; I was.
Mr. BALL. How many years?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Let me see, about 8 years.
Mr. BALL. Did you have any children?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, I did.
Mr. BALL. How many children did you have?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Well, I have five children.
Mr. BALL. Do they live with you now or what?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I have one son who stays with me.
Mr. BALL. What has been your work most of your life since you were
divorced, what kind of work have you done?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Waitress work.
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Mr. BALL. You have done waitress work?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, Sir.
Mr. BALL. Where do you work now?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Eat Well Restaurant,
Mr. BALL. Were you working there on November 22, 1963?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I was.
Mr. BALL. What hours did you work?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I was due at work from 2:30 in the evening until 10:30 at
night.
Mr. BALL. Did you leave your home some time that morning to go to work?
Mrs. MARKHAM. That evening?
Mr. BALL. Morning.
Mrs. MARKHAM. That morning?
Mr. BALL. You left your home to go to work at some time, didn't you, that
day?
Mrs. MARKHAM. At one.
Mr. BALL. One o'clock?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I believe it was a little after 1.
Mr. BALL. Where did you intend to catch the bus?
Mrs. MARKHAM. On Patton and Jefferson.
Mr. BALL. Patton and Jefferson is about a block south of Patton and 10th
Street, isn't it?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I think so.
Mr. BALL. Well, where is your home from Patton and Jefferson?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I had came--I come one block, I had come one block from my
home.
Mr. BALL. You were walking, were you?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I came from 9th to the corner of
Mr. BALL. And you were walking toward
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL.
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. It runs in a generally east and west direction?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And Patton runs north and south?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir; up and down this way.
Mr. BALL. So you were walking south toward
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. You think it was a little after 1?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I wouldn't be afraid to bet it wasn't 6 or 7 minutes after
1.
Mr. BALL. You know what time you usually get your bus, don't you?
Mrs. MARKHAM. 1:15.
Mr. BALL. So it was before 1:15?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, it was.
Mr. BALL. When you came to the corner of Patton and
Mrs. MARKHAM. Now you have got me mixed up on all my streets. I was on
the opposite of where this man was.
Mr. BALL. Well, you were walking along the street--
Mrs. MARKHAM. On the street.
Mr. BALL. On Patton, you were going toward
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And you were on the right- or left-hand side of the street as
you were walking south?
Mrs. MARKHAM. That would be on the left.
Mr. BALL. Your right.
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, it would be right.
Mr. BALL. Right-hand side, wouldn't it? When you came to the corner did
you have to stop before you crossed
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, I did.
Mr. BALL. Why?
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Mrs. MARKHAM. On account the traffic was coming.
Mr. BALL. And you stopped there on the corner?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. That would be the northwest corner, wouldn't it?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Northwest corner.
Mr. BALL. Is that right?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I believe it is. I believe it is the northwest corner.
Mr. BALL. Did you see any man walking at that time?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; I seen this man on the opposite side, across the
street from me. He was almost across
Mr. BALL. Almost across Patton?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Walking in what direction?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I guess this would be south.
Mr. BALL. Along 10th, east? Was it along 10th?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Walking away from you, wasn't he?
Mrs. MARKHAM. He was walking up 10th, away from me.
Mr. BALL. To your left?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Well, he was on the opposite side of the street to me like
that.
Mr. BALL. Had he reached the curb yet?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Almost ready to get up on the curb.
Mr. BALL. What did you notice then?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Well, I noticed a police car coming.
Mr. BALL. Where was the police car when you first saw it?
Mrs. MARKHAM. He was driving real slow, almost up to this man, well, say
this man, and he kept, this man kept walking, you know, and the police car going
real slow now, real slow, and they just kept coming into the curb, and finally
they got way up there a little ways up, well, it stopped.
Mr. BALL. The police car stopped?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What about the man? Was he still walking?
Mrs. MARKHAM. The man stopped.
Mr. BALL. Then what did you see the man do?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I saw the man come over to the car very slow, leaned and
put his arms just like this, he leaned over in this window and looked in this
window.
Mr. BALL. He put his arms on the window ledge?
Mrs. MARKHAM. The window was down.
Mr. BALL. It was?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Put his arms on the window ledge?
Mrs. MARKHAM. On the ledge of the window.
Mr. BALL. And the policeman was sitting where?
Mrs. MARKHAM. On the driver's side.
Mr. BALL. He was sitting behind the wheel?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Was he alone in the car?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Then what happened?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Well, I didn't think nothing about it; you know, the police
are nice and friendly, and I thought friendly conversation. Well, I looked, and
there were cars coming, so I had to wait. Well, in a few minutes this man made--
Mr. BALL. What did you see the policeman do?
Mrs. MARKHAM. See the policeman? Well, this man, like I told you, put his
arms up, leaned over, he just a minute, and he drew back and he stepped back
about two steps. Mr. Tippit--
Mr. BALL. The policeman?
Mrs. MARKHAM. The policeman calmly opened the car door, very slowly,
wasn't angry or nothing, he calmly crawled out of this car, and I still just
thought a friendly conversation, maybe disturbance in the house, I did not know;
well, just as the policeman got--
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Mr. BALL. Which way did he walk?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Towards the front of the car. And just as he had gotten
even with the wheel on the driver's side--
Mr. BALL. You mean the left front wheel?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; this man shot the policeman.
Mr. BALL. You heard the shots, did you?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. How many shots did you hear?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Three.
Mr. BALL. What did you see the policeman do?
Mrs. MARKHAM. He fell to the ground, and his cap went a little ways out
on the street.
Mr. BALL. What did the man do?
Mrs. MARKHAM. The man, he just walked calmly, fooling with his gun.
Mr. BALL. Toward what direction did he walk?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Come back towards me, turned around, and went back.
Mr. BALL. Toward Patton?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir; towards Patton. He didn't run. It just didn't
scare him to death. He didn't run. When he saw me he looked at me, stared at me.
I put my hands over my face like this, closed my eyes. I gradually opened my
fingers like this, and 1 opened my eyes, and when I did he started off in kind
of a little trot.
Mr. BALL. Which way?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Sir?
Mr. BALL. Which way?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Towards Jefferson, right across that way.
Mr. DULLES. Did he have the pistol in his hand at this time?
Mrs. MARKHAM. He had the gun when I saw him.
Mr. BALL. Did you yell at him?
Mrs. MARKHAM. When I pulled my fingers down where I could see, I got my
hand down, he began to trot off, and then I ran to the policeman.
Mr. BALL. Before you put your hands over your eyes, before you put your
hand over your eyes, did you see the man walk towards the corner?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.
Mr. BALL. What did he do?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Well, he stared at me.
Mr. BALL. What did you do?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I didn't do anything. I couldn't.
Mr. BALL. Didn't you say something?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No, I couldn't.
Mr. BALL. Or yell or scream
Mrs. MARKHAM. I could not. I could not say nothing.
Mr. BALL. You looked at him?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.
Mr. BALL. You looked at him
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. He looked wild. I mean, well, he did to me.
Mr. BALL. And you say you saw him fooling with his gun?
Mrs. MARKHAM. He had it in his hands.
Mr. BALL. Did you see what he was doing with it?
Mrs. MARKHAM. He was just fooling with it. I didn't know what he was
doing. I was afraid he was fixing to kill me.
Mr. BALL. How far away from the police car do you think you were on the
corner when you saw the shooting?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Well, I wasn't too far.
Mr. BALL. Can you estimate it in feet? Don't guess.
Mrs. MARKHAM. I would just be afraid to say how many feet because I am a
bad judgment on that.
Mr. BALL. When you looked at the man, though, when he came toward the
corner, you were standing on one corner, were you?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir
Mr. BALL. Where was he standing with reference to the other corner?
Mrs. MARKHAM. After he had shot--
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Mr. BALL. When he looked at you.
Mrs. MARKHAM After he had shot the policeman?
Mr. BALL. Yes.
Mrs. MARKHAM. He was standing almost even to that curb, not very far from
the curb, from the sidewalk.
Mr. BALL. Across the street from you?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did he look at you?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And did you look at him?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I sure did.
Mr. BALL. That was before you put your hands over your eyes?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir; and he kept fooling with his gun, and I slapped
my hands up to my face like this.
Mr. BALL. And then you ran to the policeman?
Mrs. MARKHAM. After he ran off.
Mr. BALL. In what hand did he have his gun, do you know, when he fired
the shots?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Sir, I believe it was his right. I am not positive because
I was scared.
Mr. BALL. When he came down the street towards you, in what hand did he
have his gun?
Mrs. MARKHAM. He had it in both of them.
Mr. BALL. He had it in both of them?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. When he went towards
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did he cross Patton?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. DULLES. Were there many other, or other people in the block at that
time, or were you there with Officer Tippit almost alone?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I was out there, I didn't see anybody. I was there alone by
myself.
Mr. DULLES. I see. You didn't see anybody else in the immediate
neighborhood?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No; not until everything was over--I never seen anybody
until I was at Mr. Tippit's side. I tried to save his life, which was I didn't
know at that time I couldn't do something for him.
Mr. DULLES. Mr. Tippit, Officer Tippit, didn't say anything to you?
Mrs. MARKHAM. He tried to.
Mr. DULLES. He tried to?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. DULLES. But he didn't succeed?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No, I couldn't understand. I was screaming and hollering
and I was trying to help him all I could, and I would have. I was with him until
they put him in the ambulance.
Mr. BALL. Did you make an estimate of how far you were from this man with
the gun when he came--after the shooting, and when he came down to the corner,
did you make an estimate of that?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No. To anyone--
Mr. BALL. We measured it the other day. We were out there, weren't we?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Now I couldn't tell you how many feet or nothing because I
have never had no occasions to measure that.
Mr. DULLES. Was it further than this table, the length of this table?
Mrs. MARKHAM. It was across the street.
Mr. DULLES. Across the street. It was two or three times the length of
this table?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Across from the street. That was too close.
Mr. BALL. We have a map coming from the FBI. We thought it would be here
this morning.
Mrs. Markham, you were taken to the Police Department, weren't you?
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Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Immediately.
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Later that day they had a showup you went to?
Mrs. MARKHAM. A lineup?
Mr. BALL. A lineup.
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.
Mr. BALL. How many men were in the lineup?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I believe there were, now I am not positive, I believe
there were three besides this man.
Mr. BALL. That would be four people altogether?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I believe that is correct.
Mr. BALL. Were they of anywhere near similar build or size or coloring?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, they were all about the same height.
Mr. BALL. Who were you in the lineup room with?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Who was I in the room where they had this man?
Mr. BALL. Yes.
Mrs. MARKHAM. Policemen.
Mr. BALL. More than one?
Mrs. MARKHAM. The room was full.
Mr. BALL. It was. In this lineup room, the room was full of policemen.
Weren't there just one or two men with you?
Mrs. MARKHAM. One or two with me, but I don't know who they were.
Mr. BALL. But there were other officers?
Mrs. MARKHAM. There were all policemen sitting in the back of me, and
aside of me.
Mr. BALL. In this room?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. They were doing something.
Mr. BALL. Before you went into this room were you shown a picture of
anyone?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I was not.
Mr. BALL. Did you see any television?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I did not.
Mr. BALL. Did a police officer say anything to you before you went in
there, to tell you--
Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. That he thought "We had the right man," or something
of that sort? Anything like that?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. No statement like that?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did anybody tell you that the man you were looking for would be
in a certain position in the lineup, or anything like that?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Now when you went into the room you looked these people over,
these four men?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you recognize anyone in the lineup?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. You did not? Did you see anybody--I have asked you that
question before did you recognize anybody from their face?
Mrs. MARKHAM. From their face, no.
Mr. BALL. Did you identify anybody in these four people?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I didn't know nobody.
Mr. BALL. I know you didn't know anybody, but did anybody in that lineup
look like anybody you had seen before?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No. I had never seen none of them, none of these men.
Mr. BALL. No one of the four?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No one of them.
Mr. BALL. No one of all four?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Was there a number two man in there?
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Mrs. MARKHAM. Number two is the one I picked.
Mr. BALL. Well, I thought you just told me that you hadn't--
Mrs. MARKHAM. I thought you wanted me to describe their clothing.
Mr. BALL. No. I wanted to know if that day when you were in there if you
saw anyone in there--
Mrs. MARKHAM. Number two.
Mr. BALL. What did you say when you saw number two?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Well, let me tell you. I said the second man, and they kept
asking me which one, which one. I said, number two. When I said number two, I
just got weak.
Mr. BALL. What about number two, what did you mean when you said number
two?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Number two was the man I saw shoot the policeman.
Mr. BALL. You recognized him from his appearance?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I asked--I looked at him. When I saw this man I wasn't
sure, but I had cold chills just run all over me.
Mr. BALL. When you saw him?
Mrs. MARKHAM. When I saw the man. But I wasn't sure, so, you see, I told
them I wanted to be sure, and looked, at his face is what I was looking at,
mostly is what I looked at, on account of his eyes, the way he looked at me. So
I asked them if they would turn him sideways. They did, and then they turned him
back around, and I said the second, and they said, which one, and I said number
two. So when I said that, well, I just kind of fell over. Everybody in there,
you know, was beginning to talk, and I don't know, just--
Mr. BALL. Did you recognize him from his clothing?
Mrs. MARKHAM. He had on a light short jacket, dark trousers. I looked at
his clothing, but I looked at his face, too.
Mr. BALL. Did he have the same clothing on that the man had that you saw
shoot the officer?
Mrs. MARKHAM. He had, these dark trousers on.
Mr. BALL. Did he have a jacket or a shirt? The man that you saw shoot
Officer Tippit and run away, did you notice if he had a jacket on?
Mrs. MARKHAM. He had a jacket on when he done it.
Mr. BALL. What kind of a jacket, what general color of jacket?
Mrs. MARKHAM. It was a short jacket open in the front, kind of a grayish
tan.
Mr. BALL. Did you tell the police that?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, I did.
Mr. BALL. Did any man in the lineup have a jacket on?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I can't remember that.
Mr. BALL. Did this number two man that you mentioned to the police have
any jacket on when he was in the lineup?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. What did he have on?
Mrs. MARKHAM. He had on a light shirt and dark trousers.
(Representative Ford is
now in the Commission hearing room. )
Mr. BALL. Did you recognize the man from his clothing or from his face?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Mostly from his face.
Mr. BALL. Were you sure it was the same man you had seen before?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I am sure.
Mr. BALL. Now, what time of day was it that you saw this man in the
lineup?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I would say it was four, a little after.
Mr. BALL. That was four in the afternoon?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I was so upset I couldn't even tell you the time. In fact,
I wasn't interested in the time.
Mr. BALL. Yes.
Mr. DULLES. Could I ask just one question?
Mr. BALL. Yes.
Mr. DULLES. You referred to his eyes; they were rather striking. Can you
give any impression of how his eyes looked to you? I realize that is a very
vague question.
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Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes. He looked wild. They were glassy looking, because I
could see--
Mr. DULLES. He had no glasses on?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No. When we looked at each other, he just stared, just like
that. I just don't know. I just seen him--I would know the man anywhere, I know
I would.
Mr. DULLES. Thank you.
Mr. BALL. I have here an exhibit, Commission Exhibit 162, a jacket. Did
you ever see this before?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No; I did not.
Mr. BALL. Does it look like, anything like, the jacket the man had on?
Mrs. MARKHAM. It is short, open down the front. But that jacket it is a
darker jacket than that, I know it was.
Mr. BALL. You don't think it was as light a jacket as that?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No, it was darker than that, I know it was. At that moment
I was so excited--
Mr. BALL. I show you a shirt here, which is Exhibit 150. Did you ever see
a shirt the color of this?
Mrs. MARKHAM. The shirt that this man had, it was a lighter looking shirt
than that.
Mr. BALL. The man who shot Tippit?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir; I think it was lighter.
Mr. BALL. All right. I have some pictures here that I would like to show
you. I have Exhibits 521 and 522, which have been marked as Exhibits. Here is
one picture, 521. Do you recognize that as the sign down?
Mrs. MARKHAM. This is the corner of Patton and 10th.
Mr. BALL. Patton and 10th.
Mrs. MARKHAM. This is on the corner of Patton and 10th.
Mr. BALL. Yes. Was the man anywhere near that corner when you saw him?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, he was.
Mr. BALL. After the shooting?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir; he was.
Mr. BALL. All right. Now, take this pen and put an X as to the point when
he looked at you and you looked at him.
Mrs. MARKHAM. He was right along here.
Mr. BALL. Put an X.
Mrs. MARKHAM. I don't know. I am too nervous.
Mr. BALL. At the time the man was standing at X in this picture, at this
location, which is shown in 521, where were you?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I was on the opposite corner, across over here, like this.
Mr. BALL. Were you as close to the curb as--were you close to the curb at
that time?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, I was.
Mr. DULLES. Where was the car, where this car is?
Mr. BALL. No, I have another picture I will show her. I have here Exhibit
522; do you recognize the white house in the picture?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.
Mr. BALL. And the driveway next to it?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Does that show the location of the police car at the time it
stopped?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. That is the big old white house, 404.
Mr. BALL. That is right.
Mrs. MARKHAM. 10th Street, and this driveway and this house.
Mr. DULLES. Will you give us an idea, Mr. Ball, as to where she said she
was on this picture? Was she over here?
Mr. BALL. We have a picture. There is a booklet here that has been
prepared by a succession of witnesses. We have a general diagram here which I
will show the witness at this time.
Mrs. Markham, there is
a diagram here which shows 10th Street going in an easterly and westerly
direction, Patton running north and south.
(Marked Commission Exhibit No. 523 for identification.)
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
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Mr. BALL. Do you understand that?
Mrs. MARKHAM. This would be the corner I would be at.
Mr. BALL. No, this would be Patton. This is north and south. Jefferson is
down here. Can you locate yourself?
Mrs. MARKHAM. This is 10th?
Mr. BALL. That is 10th.
Mrs. MARKHAM. And this Patton?
Mr. BALL. That is right.
Mrs. MARKHAM. I was standing on the corner of 10th and Patton.
Mr. BALL. That is right. But which corner?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Northeast corner is where I was standing.
Mr. BALL. Northeast or northwest? This would be northeast and this would
be northwest. Here is where the squad car would be. Right there. Here is 404.
Mrs. MARKHAM. It would be this corner then.
Mr. BALL. Well, that is northeast and that is northwest. Were you
kitty-cornered?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I was kitty-cornered from it like this.
Mr. BALL. Like that?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Well, this is northwest, this is northeast, southeast,
southwest, and here is the car. We are going down the street now.
Mrs. MARKHAM. It would be this--that would be on the opposite side.
Mr. BALL. That is right. Look at a number on that and tell me where you
were standing.
Mrs. MARKHAM. I was standing right at the curb.
Mr. BALL. Do you see a number?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Number 5.
Mr. BALL. Number 5 on this diagram would be indicating the place where
you would be standing, is that right?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I was standing on the opposite corner from that.
Mr. BALL. I know, but I have got to get you to tell me where you were
standing. Picture yourself going down Patton towards Jefferson.
Mrs. MARKHAM. Going down Patton?
Mr. BALL. You were coming from this direction. Your home was up here.
Mrs. MARKHAM. I was coming down Patton. It would be this corner.
Mr. BALL. That corner, all right. Take this pen and show your course down
the sidewalk.
Mrs. MARKHAM. Just draw it right on it?
Mr. BALL. Down to where you stood.
Mrs. MARKHAM. Right on the edge.
Mr. BALL. Is there a number there that shows where you were?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Near 5, is that right?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.
Mr. DULLES. That is the northwest corner?
Mr. BALL. Northwest corner; that is the northwest corner. Here is a
picture. Do you recognize that?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. That is picture number 3 in the booklet. Does that show where
you were?
(Marked Commission Exhibit No. 524 for identification.)
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Where was the man shot?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Right here.
Mr. BALL. Put a mark where you first saw him. Mark that A. Then he went
which direction down the street?
Mrs. MARKHAM. He went this way.
Mr. BALL. In other words, he went in a direction-draw a line and then put
an arrow showing what direction.
Mrs. MARKHAM. From here--
Mr. BALL. Yes.
Mrs. MARKHAM. Right on down the side.
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Mr. BALL. Make a mark and put an arrow. That was the direction he was
walking?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. The police car had not come into sight yet?
Mrs. MARKHAM. That is right.
Mr. BALL. Put an X where the police car was when you first saw it, put an
X there and we will mark that B. Now, after the shooting, where was the man when
you looked at him?
Mrs. MARKHAM. He turned and came back this way.
Mr. BALL. Where did he stand and look at you?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Right here.
Mr. BALL. Put a mark there. We will mark that C. Where were you standing
when he was looking at you?
Mrs. MARKHAM. The same position.
Mr. BALL. The same position as the girl shown on this picture?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Is that your picture?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. That is you there in that picture?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you stand there for the photographer to show him where you
were standing?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. I would like to offer into evidence the diagram in this book,
together with the picture which illustrates the diagram.
The CHAIRMAN. Under what numbers?
Mr. BALL. As 523, which is the diagram, and 524, which is the picture.
The CHAIRMAN. They may be admitted.
(The documents identified as Commission Exhibits Nos. 521-524 were
received in evidence.)
Mr. BALL. You went out there in picture number 3. Now, Mr. Dulles, I
think this will explain it.
Mr. DULLES. Yes, Mr. Ball.
Mr. BALL. I have some other pictures here that might illustrate. Do you
recognize this?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.
Mr. BALL. You were here the time the picture was taken?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. You told the parties where to put the squad car?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Does this show the place where the police car was when this
happened?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. The place at the arrow?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. It shows a corner.
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. On the picture make a mark where the man was when he came back
and looked at you.
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. He was a little behind this.
Mr. BALL. Just make an X there in general.
Mrs. MARKHAM. That is supposed to be on the sidewalk.
Mr. BALL. I would like to have this marked as Commission Exhibit 525. The
X marks the position of the man who did the shooting on the corner after the
shooting, and the arrow points to the squad car. Here is another picture marked
4 in this book which I will mark as Commission Exhibit 526. Is that you in the
picture?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. You went out there the day the picture was taken?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Is that where you were standing?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
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Mr. BALL. Is that where you were when you saw the shooting?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you move from that place from the time of the shooting
until the time you saw the man on the corner?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.
Mr. DULLES. I wonder, Mrs. Markham, if you would repeat for me, I would
like to hear it, and Congressman Ford would like to hear it, the scene that you
saw where the man now known to be Oswald went up and put his arms on the door of
the police car, as I understand it.
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.
Mr. DULLES. Would you tell that once again. I would like to hear it
again.
Mrs. MARKHAM. He calmly walked to the car. He wasn't in no hurry.
Mr. DULLES. May I ask, was he called, were there any words that you
heard?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No, I did not. I seen the police car stop.
Mr. DULLES. You didn't hear the policeman say, "Come here," or
anything of that kind?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No.
Mr. DULLES. He might have done it, but you didn't hear it?
Mrs. MARKHAM. That is right. And the man went over to the car, put his
hands on the window--
Mr. DULLES. The window was open?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Leaned over like this.
Mr. DULLES. Let me see. Was that on the right-hand side of the car, or
where the driver was?
Mrs. MARKHAM. It was on the opposite side of the car.
Mr. DULLES. Opposite side of the car from the driver, yes.
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes. The window was down, and I know it was down, I know,
and he put his arms and leaned over, I don't know what they were talking about,
I didn't hear it. Then he stepped back in a few minutes, stepped back two steps.
Mr. DULLES. He stepped back two steps from the car?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Just stepped back twice. Mr. Tippit, of course, the
policeman-I didn't know it was Mr. Tippit--
Mr. DULLES. Yes.
Mrs. MARKHAM. He calmly opened the door. He calmly crawled out like he
wasn't angry.
Mr. DULLES. Did he have a weapon in his hands?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I didn't see one.
Mr. DULLES. And what happened?
Mrs. MARKHAM. He was just calmly walking to the front of the car and when
he got even with the wheel on the driver's side, front, you know, that man shot
him.
Mr. DULLES. Did you see him draw his revolver?
Mrs. MARKHAM. He shot him like this.
Mr. DULLES. I see.
Mr. BALL. Like this, you mean from the hip or from the waist?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes. In the wink of your eye, before you could ever--just
like that. It didn't seem like it bothered him, disturbed him.
Mr. DULLES. The policeman hadn't made, as far as you could see, any
menacing gestures toward him? He wasn't trying to grab him or anything of that
kind?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No. He was very calm, very. I would say like in slow
motion, you know, like he was getting out to talk with the man, or go in the
house for disturbance or something, I don't know.
Mr. BALL. He shot across the hood of the car?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Across the hood.
Mr. BALL. The policeman was in the street, walking in the street around
to the front of the car?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.
Mr. DULLES. The policeman then got out on the opposite side of where
Oswald was?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, I guess he was coming around.
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Representative FORD. It appeared as though he was walking around the
front of the car?
Mrs. MARKHAM. He had started around, and then he was going over to the
man.
Mr. BALL. He had only reached the left front wheel though when he was
shot?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And he fell into the street?
Mrs. MARKHAM. He fell into the street, his hat fell off his head. He
didn't fall, just clumped down like that.
Representative FORD. Did the man with the gun move at all as the officer
started to go around the car?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No. He didn't move. I mean, walked back or anything like
that, no, sir.
Representative FORD. He didn't appear to run?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No. I didn't know anything was-going to happen. If I had I
would have kept walking, not walking, running.
Mr. DULLES. He had walked slowly around the car to meet the other man?
Mrs. MARKHAM. The policeman was.
Mr. DULLES. Slow?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Was there a pool of blood where Mr. Tippit fell in the street?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. I show you this picture, Exhibit 533 (remembered as Exhibit
527, see p. 321). Will you look at that picture and tell me whether it shows the
approximate position where Mr. Tippit fell after he was shot?
Mrs. MARKHAM. He fell right out this way.
Mr. BALL. Look at the discoloration in the street. Is that anywhere near
where Tippit fell?
Mrs. MARKHAM. It don't seem to me it was out that far.
Mr. BALL. It doesn't?
Mrs. MARKHAM. It seemed like to me it was over this way because he fell
this way.
Mr. BALL. He fell this way? These people can't see what you are showing
here. Here is the pool of blood. Which way do you think he fell?
Mrs. MARKHAM. See the wheel would be right down under here, back right
this way. He fell this way.
Mr. BALL. Into the street?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, and his head was like this, you know, it was laying
like this.
Mr. DULLES. Is this splotch out here in front of the car the pool of
blood?
Mr. BALL. Out to the left.
Mrs. MARKHAM. It seems to me it ought to be here.
Mr. BALL. But there was a pool of blood?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. I will pass this out to the Commissioners.
Representative FORD. May I ask this, Mr. Ball, the place where you
pointed, where you thought the pool of blood different from where it is shown on
here was only a matter of what, a foot or two?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir; just about a little, back a little. It seems his
hat was this way.
Representative FORD. So it is a difference of a foot or two, at the most?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.
Mr. BALL. That is right.
Mr. DULLES. Could you see the blood at this time or just see him fall?
Did you actually see blood?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Did I actually see it, sir? I was there.
Mr. DULLES. I know you were there.
Mrs. MARKHAM. I was standing over it.
Mr. DULLES. You were standing right over the officer?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes. Just as soon as, just as quick as I could get to him;
and
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the blood was coming
from here like this and like that, in an oval shape. It did not splutter on his
face too much, his mouth. It was here, coming out here.
Representative FORD. The blood was?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, just gushes. I had my workshoes in my hand. I laid
them up on the squad car. I had my purse, which I can't remember where I put it,
but this, I had a head scarf around my head, I had my coat on.
Mr. BALL. I would like to offer all of these into evidence at this time,
up to 526, inclusive.
The CHAIRMAN. They may be received.
(The items identified as Commission Exhibits Nos. 525 and 526 were
received in evidence.)
The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Dulles, will you preside in my absence, please. I must
attend a session of the Court.
Mr. DULLES. I will, sir.
(The Chairman left the hearing room at this point.)
Mr. BALL. Mrs. Markham, the police car, did the police car go beyond the
man who was walking along the sidewalk, or did it stop opposite him?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Almost even with him.
Mr. BALL. And when the police car stopped, did the man stop?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir; and walked over to the policeman.
Mr. BALL. The police car was going in the same direction as the man?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes. sir.
Mr. BALL. And caught up with him?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes. sir.
Mr. BALL. Mrs. Markham, do you know a man named Mark Lane?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No; I do not.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever hear of the name?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Did not.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever talk to a New York lawyer who says he was from New
York?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever talk to a lawyer who was investigating the case in
behalf of the deceased man, Lee Oswald?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever talk to a man who said he was representing the
mother of Lee Oswald?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. You don't remember ever talking to a man named Mark Lane?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. In an appearance before this Commission, a man named Mark Lane
has testified this way. Let me read it to you. That was on Wednesday, March 4,
1964, Vol. II of a public hearing before this Commission, page 51. This is what
he said:
"I spoke with the deponent"-he is talking about an affidavit
that you made to the Dallas Police Department-"l spoke with the deponent,
the eyewitness, Helen Louise Markham, and Mrs. Markham told me Miss or Mrs., I
didn't ask her if she was married--told me she was 100 feet away from the police
car, not the 50 feet which appears in the affidavit."
Do you recall ever stating that to Mr. Lane or anyone else?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir; no, sir.
Mr. BALL. He testified: "She gave me a more detailed description of
the man who she said shot Officer Tippit. She said he was short, a little on the
heavy side, and his hair was somewhat bushy." Did you say that to Mark
Lane?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir; I don't even know the man.
Mr. BALL. Or anybody else?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever tell anyone that the man who shot Tippit was
short, a little on the heavy side, and his hair was somewhat bushy?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Was the man, is it your memory now that the man who shot Tippit
was short, a little on the heavy side?
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Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir. He wasn't too heavy.
Mr. BALL. Is it your memory that his hair was bushy?
Mrs. MARKHAM. It wasn't so bushy. It was, say, windblown or something.
What I mean, he didn't
have a lot of hair.
Mr. BALL. He didn't have a lot of hair?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir; that I could see. I don't even know that man; I
never talked to nobody.
Representative FORD. You didn't talk to him by telephone or any other
means?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.
Representative FORD. Did you ever get an anonymous phone call from a
person who asked you these questions?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No.
Mr. BALL. Now, he also says, and he testified as follows:
"Helen Markham said to me she was taken to the police station on
that same day, that she was very upset. She, of course, had never seen anyone
killed in front of her eyes before, and in the police station she identified
Oswald as the person who had shot Officer Tippit in the lineup, including three
other persons. She said no one pointed Oswald out to her, and she said she was
just shown four people, and she picked Oswald. She said when he asked her how
she could identify him, she said she was able to identify him because of his
clothing, a gray jacket and dark trousers."
Did you ever make that statement to him?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I did not, sir.
Mr. BALL. Or to anyone else?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Not to anybody.
Mr. BALL. When you identified Oswald--it was the number 2 man--were you
told the number 2 man whom you identified in the lineup?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No, I was not.
Mr. BALL. Were you ever told his name?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No.
Mr. BALL. Ever told his name later?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Nobody, nobody told me nothing.
Mr. BALL. Well, the man that you identified as the number 2 man in the
lineup in the police station, you identified him as the man you had seen shoot
Officer Tippit?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, I did.
Mr. BALL. Did you identify him because of his clothing that he had on at
that time in the lineup.
Mrs. MARKHAM. Just like I told you. I mostly looked at his face, his
eyes, and his clothing, too.
Mr. BALL. He said here you were able to identify him, Mark Lane testified
that you told him you were able to identify him because of his clothing, a gray
jacket. First, did the man in the lineup have a gray jacket on?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. What did he have on?
Mrs. MARKHAM. He had on this light shirt, dark trousers.
Mr. DULLES. You have considered your answers very carefully, have you, on
this point?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I am doing my best.
Mr. DULLES. Yes, I know you are, and you are quite sure you never talked
to anyone who purported to be Mr. Lane?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Never in my life. I talked to two men, and this man who
told me he was from Paris, France. He came down on my job. I was scared to
death. I wasn't going to talk to him. I work for a Greek.
Mr. DULLES. Let's get this a little more clearly, Mrs. Markham. You say
you talked with someone who came from France?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.
Mr. DULLES. Did he represent a French newspaper?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.
Mr. DULLES. You don't know what newspaper?
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Mrs. MARKHAM. No. He told--you see, I didn't understand this man, but my
boss could.
Mr. DULLES. He came to you in the restaurant?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes. And I was scared, which I was scared of everybody. I
was upset and trying to work, too, and he was--he come to me and he asked for me
and, of course, they knew who I was because I was there so long.
Mr. DULLES. When was that?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I don't recall the date.
Mr. DULLES. Was it 2 or 3 days after the assassination or was it right
after?
Mrs. MARKHAM. It was quite some time after.
Mr. DULLES. Some time after?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.
Mr. DULLES. A week or more, maybe?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.
Representative FORD. Can you describe this man?.
Mrs. MARKHAM. He had-he was dark complected, very nice man, black
horn-rimmed glasses, blackheaded, and he was build kind of--
Mr. DULLES. What did he ask you--excuse me.
Representative FORD. Was he tall or short, heavy set?
Mrs. MARKHAM. About medium, I guess. I didn't pay much attention to the
man.
Representative FORD. Did he have an accent?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, he did.
Representative FORD. Was it difficult for you to understand him because
of this accent?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes. This is what this man told me. He told me he told my
boss and my boss also told me, my boss stood right beside me.
Representative FORD. Did he speak in English with an accent?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes But this man told me the Government sent him.
Representative FORD. Did he identify which government?
Mrs. MARKHAM. He had--he showed me who he was. He was a news reporter.
Mr. DULLES. Did he say whether he was a foreigner or an American citizen?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I can't remember. I was too scared. But he did show me his
identification, his picture and everything. The Government had sent him to me,
which he was coming to Washington. He was supposed to be here, and then back
somewhere in Dallas, I think he told me.
Mr. DULLES. Could you recall the questions he asked you?
Mrs. MARKHAM. He just asked me very few questions. This man asked me
about if the police had taken me down to the police station and did I see
anything after I went into the police station, hear any TV, or see any TV, any
radio, newspapers, or anybody talked to me, and I said they did not.
Representative FORD. Did your employer listen to the questions and
answers?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, James Gambolis listened to it.
Mr. DULLES. We will take a moment's recess.
(A short recess was taken.)
Mr. BALL. On the 22d of November, 1963, that is the day of the shooting,
did you talk to an FBI agent named Odum? Do you remember?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I talked to some people, men, down at the police station.
Mr. BALL. That is right. He says that you described the man who shot
Tippit as a white male, about 18, black hair, red complexion, wearing black
shoes, tan jacket, and dark trousers. Do you remember that?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I never said anything about his shoes because I never did
look at his feet.
Mr. BALL. Did you say about 18?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I said he was young looking.
Mr. BALL. Did you give that age, 18?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No, I don't believe I did.
Mr. BALL. Did you say he had black hair?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. You thought he was black-haired?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, that is what I told him. I thought he was
black-haired. I remember saying that.
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Mr. BALL. Red complexion?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No, not red complexioned.
Mr. BALL. You didn't say that?
Mr. DULLES. Mrs. Markham, did you say you talked to two persons, one
person whom you are now describing from a foreign newspaper, and one other?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.
Mr. DULLES. Who was the other one with whom you talked?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I don't recall. He was a newspaper reporter by Life
magazine.
Mr. DULLES. Life magazine?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes. I remember, which they did print the picture in Life
magazine.
Mr. DULLES. And Life magazine printed what you told them?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.
Mr. DULLES. And printed it accurately as far as you recall?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Very little of what I told him did he put in.
Mr. DULLES. What they put in was accurate more or less?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.
Representative FORD. It coincided with what you told him?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, just a little old paragraph or two.
Mr. DULLES. Except for those two persons, you don't recall talking with
anyone about your testimony or your appearance in the lineup?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.
Mr. DULLES. Just those two?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Just a few more questions, Mrs. Markham. You ran immediately
over to where the police officer was lying in the street?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I did.
Mr. BALL. Was he alive?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did he say anything?
Mrs. MARKHAM. He was trying to, but he just couldn't. I just couldn't
make out what he was trying to say.
Mr. BALL. Did some man come up immediately thereafter?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.
Mr. BALL. What kind of a car did he have?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Not immediately.
Mr. BALL. Soon?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Soon.
Mr. BALL. In a pickup truck?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes. I very frankly remembered this truck, but I remember
it the way it took off.
Mr. BALL. He stopped though, didn't he?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.
Mr. BALL. That is the man who called over the police radio, wasn't he?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I don't recall.
Mr. BALL. What did he look like, the man in the pickup truck?
Mrs. MARKHAM. This man had a hat on. I thought he was a policeman.
Mr. BALL. A dark man, looked somewhat Spanish?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I don't recall. I was screaming and crying and trying to
get help, begging for somebody to help me.
Mr. BALL. When did you start screaming?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I started screaming by the time I left where I was standing
and screamed plumb across the street.
Mr. BALL. Do you remember what you said?
Mrs. MARKHAM. "The man has killed a policeman," I remember,
"Somebody help. He has killed him, he has killed him," I was saying
that, I was pulling my hair almost. It is a wonder he did not turn and kill me,
really it was.
Mr. BALL. Did you see Mr. Scoggins?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I don't remember--
Mr. BALL. The taxicab driver.
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Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, I saw the taxicab driver.
Mr. BALL. Where was the taxicab?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Parked on Patton.
Mr. BALL. On Patton?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you see the man later, did you see him before the shooting?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, he was sitting in his cab.
Mr. BALL. He was. Then you saw him afterward, didn't you?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Those are all the questions I have of this witness. Do you have
something additional?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Believe me, it was just like--
Mr. DULLES. I believe Mr. Ford would like to have the witness repeat what
she saw the man, now known as Oswald, do after the shooting. Will you just
repeat that for Congressman Ford?
Mrs. MARKHAM. After he shot the policeman--
Mr. DULLES. After he shot the policeman.
Mrs. MARKHAM. After he shot the policeman he turned around, came back
around toward Patton Street. He wasn't he didn't seem to be in a no hurry. I
thought he hadn't done anything, and he was fooling with his gun in his hands,
and he seen me, and he stops.
Mr. DULLES. He stopped?
Mrs. MARKHAM. When he saw me. That is the reason we were looking at each
other.
Mr. DULLES. He hadn't seen you before so far as you could tell?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I put my hands over my face and closed my eyes, because I
knew he was going to kill me. I couldn't scream, I couldn't holler. I froze.
Mr. DULLES. I think you testified about that then he began to run slowly.
Mrs. MARKHAM. Then-
Mr. DULLES. Was that after he saw you?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; after I put my hands up, and when I had opened my
fingers and my eyes and slowly pulled them down, he was trotting off.
Mr. DULLES. Trotting off?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. He wasn't out of sight when I started running to
this police car. He was not out of sight.
Mr. DULLES. You didn't see which way he turned at the end of this run?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No; he cut across like this, across Patton, and went out
like that.
Mr. DULLES. Like this means to the right or to the left?
Mrs. MARKHAM. It means to the right, sir.
Mr. BELIN. To his right, to the man's right, as he was running?
Mrs. MARKHAM. He ran back, turned and came back down 10th to Patton
Street. He cut across Patton Street like this.
Mr. BELIN. Heading toward what street?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Toward Jefferson; yes, sir. Then he was still in sight when
I began to scream and holler and run to this police car, well, to Mr. Tippit.
Mr. DULLES. Thank you.
Mr. BALL. Are there any more questions? You can be excused, Mrs. Markham.
Mr. DULLES. Do you have any questions you would like to ask, Mr. Attorney
General?
Mr. CARR. No; I have not.
Mr. DULLES. Could you wait for just a moment. We are sorry to detain you.
There is something that might come up with the next witness, and we might wish
to ask you another question. I do not think we will. We are very grateful to
you, Mrs. Markham.
Mr. BALL. Exhibit previously marked "533," which is the squad
car, Tippit, showing the street and blood spot in the street, I would like to
have marked as "Exhibit 527." It was marked by mistake.
Mr. DULLES. Is that our last exhibit?
Mr. BALL. That is our last exhibit, 527 is our last exhibit now.
(The item identified as Commission Exhibit No. 527 was received in
evidence.)
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Mr. DULLES. You might stand for just a moment, Mr. Scoggins. The
witnesses are sworn before they can give testimony before this Commission.
Do you swear, Mr. Scoggins, that the testimony that you will give before
this Commission is the truth, the whole truth, so help you God?
Mr. SCOGGINS. To the best of my knowledge; yes.
Mr. DULLES. Be seated, please.
Mr. SCOGGINS. The Commission is taking testimony, and the Chief Justice
asked me to preside in his absence, he has to be away in the Court this morning.
The purpose of today's hearing is to hear your testimony and that of
certain others who were in the vicinity of the shooting of Officer Tippit, and
we will want your testimony on that particular point this morning.
Will you proceed?
Mr. BALL. Mr. Belin is going to examine this witness.
Mr. DULLES. Mr. Belin will carry on the examination on behalf of the
Commission.
Will you proceed, please?
William W. Scoggins
RESUME
TESTIMONY OF HELEN
MARKHAM RESUMED
Mr. DULLES. You were sworn when you previously were before us, and this
testimony of yours will be covered by the oath you previously have given. Will
you be seated?
Mr. BALL. I have two Commission Exhibits, 535 and 536. I will show them
to you, Mrs. Markham, and I will ask you if you have ever seen the man who is
pictured there, whose picture is shown on these two exhibits.
Mrs. MARKHAM. No.
Mr. BALL. Never have seen him before. Do you think he might have been one
of the men you talked to before?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No, no.
Mr. BALL. They are pictures of the same man.
Mrs. MARKHAM. No.
Mr. DULLES. We are inquiring whether you had ever seen him after the
assassination.
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, I know. No; not this man. This man I have never
seen--I have never seen this man in my life.
Mr. BALL. I have no further questions.
Mr. DULLES. Do you know who he is?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No; I don't. It is just a picture of a man; I don't know
him.
Mr. DULLES. Mr. Ball, do you have any further questions?
Mr. BALL. No further questions.
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Representative FORD. Have you ever had any difficulty with the law, Mrs.
Markham?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No.
Representative FORD. None whatsoever?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.
Representative FORD. Traffic violations?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.
Mr. DULLES. You are lucky.
Mrs. MARKHAM. I have never been in trouble.
Representative FORD. No difficulties whatsoever with the law?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. That is all, Mrs. Markham. You can be excused.
Mr. DULLES. Thank you very much, Mrs. Markham.
Mr. BALL. I offer Exhibits 535 and 536 in evidence at this time.
Mr. DULLES. They will be received.
(The items identified as Commission Exhibits Nos. 535 and 536 were
received in evidence.)
Mr. BALL. They were taken from a newspaper, they were taken from
newspaper accounts which purported to be, to show, the picture of a man named
Mark Lane.
Mr. DULLES. Yes, because he appeared before this Commission, did he not?
Mr. BALL. Yes.
Mr. DULLES. Mr. Redlich, can you identify him? Were you present when Mr.
Lane appeared before this Commission?
Mr. REDLICH. Yes; I was.
Mr. DULLES. Can you identify these pictures as pictures of Mr. Lane?
Mr. REDLICH. Yes; I can identify these as pictures of Mr. Lane. I would
also like for the record to indicate where they came from. Commission Exhibit
No. 535 is taken from--Commission Exhibit 536 came from the San Francisco
Chronicle, and dated February 8, 1964, and purports to be a photograph of Mark
Lane.
Commission No. 535 is a photograph from a newspaper clipping which was in
the Commission files, and it is an Associated Press photograph, and appeared, it
is taken from the New York Herald Tribune of March 5, 1964, and purports to be a
photograph of Mark Lane. I have met Mr. Lane once or twice prior to his
appearance before this Commission, and I was present during his testimony before
this Commission.
Mr. DULLES. You identify these as pictures of Mr. Lane?
Mr. REDLICH. These are photographs of Mark Lane.
Mr. DULLES. And these Exhibits 535 and 536 were the exhibits which were
presented to Mrs. Markham?
Mr. BELIN. I think the record should show how they were presented. They
were clipped out so there was not any writing or anything to indicate whom they
were pictures of on their face.
Mr. DULLES. That is on the record.
Mrs. Markham, there is a short question that Congressman Ford wanted to
put to you.
Representative FORD. What kind of eyesight do you have, Mrs. Markham?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I have always had good eyesight.
Representative FORD. Do you wear glasses?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No; I don't.
Representative FORD. Have your eyes tested recently?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No; I haven't. I have no cause to.
Representative FORD. You have never worn glasses in your lifetime?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No.
Mr. DULLES. Are you farsighted, nearsighted, or neither, just
good-sighted?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Just good-sighted. I did a lot of writing and a cashier and
everything. I see pretty-good.
Representative FORD. If you go to a movie can you see the picture easily
and well?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Oh, yes; yes, sir; real well.
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Page 342
Representative FORD. You can see things at a distance quite well?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. I have never had glasses.
Representative FORD. Thank you very much.
Barbara Jeanette Davis
TESTIMONY OF HELEN
MARKHAM
The testimony of Helen Markham was taken at 10 a.m., on July 23, 1964, in
the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay
Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the
President's Commission.
Mr. LIEBELER. Will you stand and take the oath, please? Do you solemnly
swear the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth,
and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I do.
Mr. LIEBELER. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler [spelling] L-i-e-b-e-l-e-r. I
am an attorney on the staff of the President's Commission investigating the
assassination of President Kennedy. I have been authorized to take your
testimony for the Commission pursuant to authority granted it by the President
in Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and joint resolution of
Congress No. 137. I think you are somewhat familiar with the proceedings of the
Commission because you have already testified before the Commission in
Washington; is that right?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; but you know, I don't know nothing about the Kennedys--President
Kennedy.
Mr. LIEBELER. I understand you were there when Oswald shot Officer Tippit?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; that's right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Since you are familiar with the Commission's procedure,
I'll just go right into your testimony. I wanted to ask you some questions about
some of the things you told the Commission when you appeared before it on March
26, 1964, when Mr. Ball took your testimony before the Commission.
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember at that time that Mr. Ball asked you the
question, "Did you ever talk to a New York lawyer who said he was from New
York?" And that you answered, "No, sir." Mr. Ball then asked you,
"Did you ever talk to a lawyer who was investigating the case on behalf of
the deceased man, Lee Oswald?" Your answer was, "No, sir." Mr.
Ball asked, "Did you ever talk to a man who said he was representing the
mother of Lee Oswald?" And you answered, "No, sir." And then Mr.
Ball asked you, "You don't remember ever talking to a man named Mark
Lane?" And then you answered, No, sir."
Mrs. MARKHAM. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember giving that testimony at that time?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever talked to Mark Lane?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No; I haven't--I haven't never seen the man in my life.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever talk to Mark Lane on the telephone?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No.
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Page 500
Mr. LIEBELER. And you remember that Congressman Ford specifically, and
Mr. Dulles, asked you whether or not you had talked to Mark Lane on the
telephone and you told them at that time that you had not talked to Mark Lane?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir; I have never seen the man. If he was to come in
here I wouldn't know who he was.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, aside from the fact you have never seen the man, you
also told the Commission when you were in Washington that you had never talked
to him over the telephone?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you talked to Mark Lane over the telephone since you
were in Washington, before today?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. You have never talked to Mark Lane over the telephone?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir; no, sir. Now, the old lady, and they told me were
reporters, came to my house.
Mr. LIEBELER. Right, but you have no recollection of ever talking
yourself?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I never even talked to her even.
Mr. LIEBELER. Well, now, I'll tell you very frankly, that we have a tape
recording of a conversation that purports to be a conversation between you and
Mark Lane on the telephone and I have a transcript which we will mark as
Markham Exhibit No. 1----
Mrs. MARKHAM. Let me tell you now----
Mr. LIEBELER. I ask you to read the transcript and I will make
arrangements----I hadn't thought you would be here until 1 o'clock this
afternoon, so I don't have a tape recorder here, but I think I can have the
Secret Service bring one over. Would you like to hear the tape, so you can tell
us whether or not that is your voice?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; sure.
Mr. LIEBELER. Let me make arrangements then to have the Secret Service
bring the tape recorder on over and we will see if it is your voice.
Mrs. MARKHAM. I am going to tell you this, now, there was someone--let me
tell you this--there was someone one day-- this was all to me--I was scared, and
I was, you know, frightened, and one day--now, this brings me back--the memories
[referring to the transcript heretofore mentions]. One day on my job there was
someone that called, but he told me he was from the city.
Mr. LIEBELER. From here in Dallas?
Mrs. MARKHAM. That's right; the city hall down here, and this man told me
he was---now, I can tell you what he told me he was--he said he was Captain
Fritz--over this telephone--Capt. Will Fritz and I know you are familiar with
him, maybe. Now, he said he was Captain Fritz with the police department of the
city of Dallas.
Mr. LIEBELER. Well, this transcript indicates that someone called a
number, a telephone number---do you remember the telephone number at your office
where you worked; were you working?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; I was working down here on Main Street.
Mr. LIBELER. Do you know what the telephone down there is?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No; I have really forgotten it, but it was over this office
phone. It's a Riverside 8 number.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is there such a number as Matthew 7-6797?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Or is there such a number as MA 7-6797, is there such a
number as that that you know of?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. This transcript here indicates that some gentleman called
this number here, Matthew 7-6797.
Mrs. MARKHAM. My number at home is Whitehall and this number that I
worked at was Riverside 8.
Mr. LIBELER. Well, I think what we should do is have the Secret Service
bring a tape recorder here, because I want you to listen to this conversation,
and if it is not your voice, we certainly want to know that.
Mrs. MARKHAM. Sure, and this man--what this man told me--he told me he
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Page 501
was from the Dallas
Police Department and he said it was concerning the Oswalds and they had to get
a little more information from me.
Mr. LIEBELER. Well, let me call the Secret Service.
Mrs. MARKHAM. And listen, that was the only call that I know of. You see,
I kept racking my brain thinking back, you know.
Mr. LIEBELER. Why don't we suspend momentarily and as soon as the Secret
Service man brings the tape recorder over here, which should be within a short
time, a half an hour, we will play the tape.
Mrs. MARKHAM. All right.
(At this point the proceedings were recessed and resumed at 11:40 a.m.,
as follows:)
Mr. LIEBELER. This is
Mr. John Joe Howlett with the Secret Service and he has brought over the tape
recorder and has put the tape on it and we will continue with your deposition,
Mrs. Markham. Mr. Howlett, with the U.S. Secret Service, will operate the tape
recorder and I will ask you, Mrs. Markham, to listen, to this conversation and
tell us whether or not this is an accurate reflection of a conversation that you
had over the telephone some time ago?
The COURT REPORTER. How much of this tape recording do you want on the
record here?
Mr. LIEBELER. I don't want any of this on the record now; however, I will
give you, Mrs. Markham, a transcript of this telephone conversation to review
and follow along, if you will. This memorandum consists of 29 pages appearing on
the letterhead of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, dated July 16, 1964, and
I want you to see if that is not in fact a transcript, a typed copy of what is
on this tape.
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; I'll watch this.
(At this point Mr. Howlett proceeded to play the tape recording of the
telephone conversation heretofore referred to and when the witness, Mrs.
Markham, began to indicate reactions to the recorded conversation, the reporter
resumed recording same as hereinafter shown and the record here begins with the
question and answer at the time Mrs. Markham began indicating her reactions.)
"Mr. LANE. I wonder if you would be good enough to tell me--I have
your affidavit which you gave the police on that date.
"Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
"Mr. LANE. And I have read that, of course, and I wonder if you
would be good enough to talk to me?"
Mr. LIEBELER. You are shaking your head, as you listen to this tape
recorder, Mrs. Markham.
John Joe, let's stop the recorder for a moment. What do you mean to
indicate by that?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I never talked to that man.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is that not your voice on the tape?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I can't tell about my voice, but that man--I never talked
to no woman or no man like that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Well, we will play the recording some more, and are you
following it along, Mrs. Markham?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; I am right here.
Mr. LIEBELER. And does this memorandum appear to be an accurate and exact
transcript of the recording?
Mrs. MARKHAM. That man--whoever that man is--I don't know, but it says,
"Mark Lane." No, sir--I'll tell the truth (raising right hand) and
those words that he's saying--that's nothing like the telephone call I
got--nothing.
Mr. LIEBELER. Let's continue with the recording and see if you recognize
your voice here on the tape.
"Mr. LANE. Tell me the description of the man whom you saw.
"Mrs. MARKHAM. This is an office business phone and I just can't
tell you that. I don't have the time to.
"Mr. LANE. Well, could you just give me one moment and tell me--I
read where you told some of the reporters that he was short and stocky and had
bushy hair.
"Mrs. MARKHAM. No, no; I
did not say that.
"Mr. LANE. You did not say that?
"Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.
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Page 502
"Mr. LANE. Would you say that he was stocky?
"Mrs. MARKHAM. He was short.
"Mr. LANE. He was short?
"Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.
"Mr. LANE. And was he a little on the heavy side?
"Mrs. MARKHAM. Not too heavy.
"Mr. LANE. Not too heavy, but slightly heavy?
"Mrs. MARKHAM. Well, he was--no--he didn't look too heavy.
"Mr. LANE. He wasn't too heavy and would you say that he had a
rather bushy kind of hair?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; that's my voice.
"Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; just a little bit bushy.
"Mr. LANE. It was a little bit bushy?
"Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.
"Mr. LANE. Yes. Was there anybody else around when you saw this
happen?
"Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir; I didn't see anyone.
"Mr. LANE. There was no one else there. Did you ever have a chance
to see Mr. Oswald when he was alive, I mean after he was arrested, did they
bring you down to look at him?
"Mrs. MARKHAM. I saw him on the lineup.
"Mr. LANE. Yes. Did he look anything like the man who shot Oswald?
"Mrs. MARKHAM. I identified him.
"Mr. LANE. You identified him as the man who did shoot him.
Did anyone point him out to you at that time as the man?
"Mrs. MARKHAM. In the lineup?
"Mr. LANE. Yes.
"Mrs. MARKHAM. No; they did not.
"Mr. LANE. Did they tell you who it might be?
"Mrs. MARKHAM. They didn't tell me one thing.
"Mr. LANE. No. Do you recall what the gentleman was wearing who shot
Officer Tippit?
"Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
"Mr. LANE. How was he dressed?
"Mrs. MARKHAM. He had on a light gray looking jacket.
"Mr. LANE. Yes.
"Mrs. MARKHAM. Kind of dark trousers.
"Mr. LANE. Dark trousers?
"Mrs. MARKHAM. Uh-huh.
"Mr. LANE. And did you see what color shirt?
"Mrs. MARKHAM. No; I could not.
"Mr. LANE. The jacket was open or closed?
"Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir; it was zipped up a little bit--the neck was
closed--pretty close too.
"Mr. LANE. Well, as I said, I have read your affidavit and it
indicates the police car stopped and then this man walked over to it and leaned
on it and placed his arms up against the car.
"Mrs. MARKHAM. Up in the window.
"Mr. LANE. In the window?
"Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.
"Mr. LANE. You didn't see the police officer call him over, did you?
"Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; I seen the police car stop--I seen it all.
"Mr. LANE. I beg your pardon?
"Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir; I seen the police car stop.
"Mr. LANE. You heard the police car stop?
"Mrs. MARKHAM. I seen it.
"Mr. LANE. You saw it stop and then Oswald or this gentleman,
whoever it was, walked over to the car?
"Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir; he walked over to the car.
"Mr. LANE. You didn't see the officer call him over, though, did
you?
"Mrs. MARKHAM. He rolled down the window.
"Mr. LANE. He did what?
"Mrs. MARKHAM. He rolled down his window.
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Page 503
"Mr. LANE. The officer rolled down the window?
"Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; uh-huh.
"Mr. LANE. Of course, you didn't put that in your affidavit.
"Mrs. MARKHAM. Sir?
"Mr. LANE. That was not in your affidavit.
"Mrs. MARKHAM. It should have been.
"Mr. LANE. It should have been--you told that to the officers?
"Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir; he had to have the window rolled down,
because, you see, he leaned over in the window.
"Mr. LANE. I see. Now, did you tell the officers at the police
station when they questioned you,
the description of the man who shot Tippit?
"Mrs. MARKHAM. I told them that at the scene of the murder.
"Mr. LANE. You told the officers the description?
"Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
"Mr. LANE. Did you say that he was short and a little bit on the
heavy side and had slightly bushy hair?
"Mrs. MARKHAM. No; I did not. They didn't ask me that.
"Mr. LANE. They never asked you his description?
"Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; they asked what he was wearing.
"Mr. LANE. Just what he was wearing?
"Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
"Mr. LANE. But they never asked you how he was built or anything
like that?
"Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.
"Mr. LANE. Well, you went to the police station where they took your
affidavit, right?
" Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes."
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you are shaking your head at this point. Miss
Reporter, you are taking the transcript down.
The REPORTER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, at this point you were shaking your head, what do you
mean by that?
Mrs. MARKHAM This man--I have never talked with. This lady was never on
the telephone. This man that called me like I told you, he told me he was from
the city hall, the police department, the police department of the city hall.
Mr. LIEBELER. Well, now, do you remember having this conversation with
somebody?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; I do, but he told me he was from the police department
of city hall and he had to get some information, a little more information from
me. That was my boss that told me the one that said, "Wait a minute,"
that was my boss, Mr. Sam Gambolus.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you received this call at the place where you work?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember specifically that when the telephone calls
started, that this man told you he was from the city hall of the police
department?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir; yes, sir; right. Because you see--- I had got a
call from a man, but it was--I found out later, because the lady had called me
back, it was from Mr. Tippit's sister, and I had told them that I couldn't talk,
you know, I was busy on my job and this man told me that he was from the police
department of the city hall and he had to get a little more information and it
wouldn't take much of my time, and so I got permission from this boss, Mr.
Gambolus, to talk with this man. Now, he told me that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did he tell you he was from the police department?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, on this tape recording right here, this man is asking
you what the police did.
Mrs. MARKHAM. I know it.
Mr. LIEBELER. And he said they--the police took you and took your
affidavit.
Mrs. MARKHAM. That man--I have never talked to that man. I talked to a
man that was supposed to have been from the police department of the city hall.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recognize this as the voice of the man you talked
to?
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Page 504
Mrs. MARKHAM. No; it is not.
Mr. LIEBELER. This is not the same voice?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. How do you explain the fact that the woman's voice on this
tape recording is your voice?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I never heard that.
Mr LIEBELER. You never heard the man's voice before?
Mrs. MARKHAM. And I never heard this lady's voice before--this is the
first time.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any doubt in your mind at all that the lady's
voice on the tape now is your voice?
Mrs. MARKHAM. It is my voice, but this man told me he was from the city
police.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did it occur to you as you were talking to him--when he
said for example, on the tape here just a few minutes ago, did you tell the
officers--you told this person you were talking to on this tape that you-saw the
police car stop and that this man walked over to the car and that the officer
had rolled the window down and this
man's voice said you did not put in the affidavit that
you had seen the officer roll the window down.
Mrs. MARKHAM. Man, I have never heard such a thing as this.
Mr. LIEBELER. At the bottom of page 6 he says, "I see. Now, did you
tell the officers at the police
station, when they questioned you, the description of the man who shot Tippit?"
You couldn't have thought was from
the police department if he was asking you what you were telling the police
before---do you agree with me?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; but he told me he was from the police department and
he had to get some information from me and I wanted to get back to my work.
Mr. LIEBELER. So, it is your testimony that even though you engaged in
this conversation here, the man--when he started out, he told you that he was
from the police department; is that
right?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir; I wouldn't have never talked to this man. Just
like if I get a telephone call I
say, "You know where I am at, come down to see me."
He told me he was from the police department and this lady never talked
to me.
Mr. LIEBELER. Which lady is that?
Mrs. MARKHAM. On this tape.
Mr. LIEBELER. Which lady on the tape?
Mrs. MARKHAM. It was a woman talking.
Mr. LIEBELER. The lady's voice that was talking on the tape here?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. I thought that was your voice?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Not at the first there.
Mr. LIEBELER. Not at the first--you mean the telephone operator, the one
that was the telephone operator? The tape here indicates that the long-distance
telephone operator or some telephone operator called you to the telephone and a
man answered the telephone.
Mrs. MARKHAM. No; my boss called me to the telephone.
Mr. LIEBELER. So, when you came to the telephone it was this man on the
telephone and he told you that he was from the police department?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. And then you engaged in this telephone conversation?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; he certainly did.
Mr. LIEBELER. So that, in
fact, your testimony is that you had never had anybody introduce themselves to
you as Mark Lane?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you haven't talked to him over the telephone?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir; and so help me [raising right hand] I did not.
Mr. LIEBELER. You don't have
any doubt, however, that you did engage in this particular conversation, except
that you are having trouble at the beginning and end of it because you said that
the man told you that he was from the police department when he called?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir ; he certainly did. I know he did.
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Page 505
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever tell anybody that this man who shot Officer
Tippit was short and stocky and had bushy hair?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No. [Handed instruments to Mr. Liebeler.]
Mr. LIEBELER. You have brought a couple of pieces of paper here that you
want me to look at?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Please--this here doesn't make sense and let me show you--I
don't know what to think about it, but I got this, but my daughter wouldn't let
me have it because I was very upset at the time and I don't know what it even
means.
Mr. LIEBELER. Let the record show that the witness has handed me a piece
of paper, a single sheet of paper enclosed in an envelope of the Statler-Hilton
Hotel in Dallas and postmarked Dallas, Tex., July 11, 1964, and addressed to
Mrs. Helen Markham at 328 East Ninth Street in Dallas, and the letter has a
return address of P.O. Box 2897, Dallas 21, Tex. It is dated July 10, 1964, and
it is addressed to Mrs. Markham and it says, "At your convenience, would
you kindly call me Saturday or any weekday morning between 9 a.m. and 12 noon. I
would like the opportunity of discussing a matter which I believe will be
mutually profitable. Sincerely, James Kerr."
We will mark the envelope and the letter as Markham Deposition Exhibit
No. 2. I have marked the letter as indicated and I have put my initials on it
and would you put your initials on it, Mrs. Markham, so we don't have any
trouble identifying it in the future.
Mrs. MARKHAM. Just my initials?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; just your initials.
(Mrs. Markham initials instrument referred to. )
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did you ever call this Mr. Kerr?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Now, where at--there wasn't no telephone or nothing. It
gives a post office box is all I saw.
Mr. LIEBELER. You never looked the telephone number up in the book or
anything like that?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No; I didn't. There are so many Kerrs---you never know who
it is.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, the envelope has the telephone listing on it--RI
9-3195; did you notice that?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Well, I called that number off of that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whose number that is?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No; I believe it was either the police department--I don't
know, but I called.
Mr. LIEBELER. You also have a telegram you want me to look at?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; I do.
Mr. LIEBELER. You never did talk to this Mr. Kerr; is that right?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir; that's all I've gotten. I want you to see what you
think about that.
Mr. LIEBELER. The witness has produced a telegram dated July 21,
apparently 1964, and addressed to her, which reads as follows:
"Dear Mrs. Markham:
"The United States Information Agency is preparing a televised
report on the findings of the Warren Commission.
"To aid us in our objectives, we have requested the on-camera
presence of President Johnson, the Commission members and selected witnesses who
have given testimony here in
"I look forward to talking with you.
"Sincerely, Buck Richard Pennington, Producer, Television Service:
When did you receive this?
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Page 506
Mrs. MARKHAM. Well----
Mr. HOWLETT. Just a moment, I talked to Mrs. Markham about this--she
called me on the telephone about that. The
Mr. LIEBELER. So, you have discussed this with Agent Howlett, is that
right, as he indicated?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Now, this man--Buck Pennington?
Mr. LIEBELER Yes.
Mrs. MARKHAM. He called me right after I got this telegram and whatever
you think--he wanted me to come up there Monday or Tuesday. Do you think it
would be all right?
Mr. LIEBELER. Well, neither one of us is in a position to give you any
advice on that at all, Mrs. Markham.
Mrs. MARKHAM. Well, who do I go to? I don't want to do something wrong.
I've done talked to somebody, I didn't know who I was talking to.
Mr. LIEBELER. I suggest you write a little note to Mr. Rankin, general
counsel of the Commission's staff in
Mrs. MARKHAM. Would you write that address down?
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you give her that address, Joe? Afterward.
Mr. HOWLETT. That's Mr. Rankin's address in
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.
Mrs. MARKHAM. I don't know if it would be all right to go up there and do
that or not.
Mr. LIEBELER. Well, why don't you write to Mr. Rankin and he will handle
that aspect of it.
Now, I want to mark this transcript, Mrs. Markham, and we have listened
to the tape--not all the way through, but part of the way through, to about page
6, and you followed it through to that extent, have you not?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER And you are satisfied that to the extent we have listened to
the tape, that it is accurately set forth in this memorandum?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is that correct?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; but that man is wrong. Why would anybody want to do
anything like that?
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you put your initials on that memorandum, please?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; may I use a pencil?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.
Mrs. MARKHAM. I just wrote
Mr. LIEBELER. All right. Thank you very much, Mrs. Markham.
I don't have any other questions at this time.
Mrs. MARKHAM. Well, that just worries me.
Mr. LIEBELER. Well, we will have to do further investigation into this.
Mrs. MARKHAM. Because he told me he was from the police department. It
never dawned on me. You know, I was in a hurry to get back because I was going
to get fired if I didn't get back.
Mr. LIEBELER. Thank you very much, Mrs. Markham.
Mrs. MARKHAM. Well, will I get in any trouble over this?
Mr. LIEBELER. I don't think so, Mrs. Markham. I wouldn't worry about it.
I don't think anybody is going to cause you any trouble over that [referring to
the telegram].
Mrs. MARKHAM. That was dirty in that man doing that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Pardon?
Mrs. MARKHAM. That was dirty in that man doing that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Well, I would think that's right.
Mrs. MARKHAM. Well, he's not no better than Oswald--that's right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Thank you, Mrs. Markham, very much.
506
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