Thursday, February 20, 1964
TESTIMONY OF ROBERT EDWARD LEE OSWALD
The President's Commission met at 9:30 a.m., on February 20, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE, Washington, D.C.
Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Senator John Cooper, Representative Hale Boggs, Representative Gerald R. Ford, and Allen W. Dulles, members.
Also present were Lee Rankin, general counsel; Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel; Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel; William McKenzie, attorney for Robert Edward Lee Oswald and Leon Jaworski, special counsel to the attorney general of Texas.
The CHAIRMAN. Gentlemen, the Commission will be in order.
I will make a brief statement for the benefit of Mr. McKenzie and Mr. Oswald, so you will know just what this is about.
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On November 29, 1963, President Lyndon B. Johnson issued Executive Order No. 11130, appointing a Commission "to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of the late President John F. Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of the man charged with the assassination."
On December 13, 1963, Congress adopted Joint Resolution S.J. 137, which authorizes the Commission or any member of the Commission or any agent or agency designated by the Commission for such purpose to administer oaths and affirmations, examine witnesses, and receive evidence.
On January 21, 1964, the Commission adopted a resolution authorizing each member of the Commission, and its General Counsel, J. Lee Rankin, to administer oaths and affirmations, examine witnesses and receive evidence concerning any matters under investigation by the Commission.
The purpose of this hearing is to take the testimony of Mr. Robert Oswald, the brother of Lee Harvey Oswald, who prior to his death was charged with the assassination of President Kennedy.
Since the Commission is inquiring fully into the background of Lee Harvey Oswald and those associated with him, it is the intention of the Commission to ask Mr. Robert Oswald questions concerning Lee Harvey Oswald on any and all matters relating to the assassination.
The Commission also intends to ask Mr. Robert Oswald questions relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. Mr. Robert Oswald has also been furnished with a copy of this statement and a copy of the rules adopted by the Commission for the taking of testimony and the production of evidence. Mr. Robert Oswald has also been furnished with a copy of Executive Order No. 11130, and Congressional Resolution S.J. No. 137, which set forth the general scope of the Commission's inquiry and its authority for examining witnesses and receiving evidence.
That is just for your general information, Mr. Oswald.
You are here with your attorney, Mr. McKenzie.
Would you state your name for the Commission?
Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Chief Justice and members of the Commission, my name is William A. McKenzie. Our office is 631 Fidelity Union Life Building, Dallas, Tex. I am a member of the State Bar of Texas and licensed to practice before the Supreme Court of that State.
The CHAIRMAN. And you are here to advise and represent Mr. Robert Oswald?
Mr. McKENZIE. I am here to advise and represent Mr. Oswald. And I might state, further, that Mr. Oswald will freely give answers to any questions that the Commission might desire to ask of him.
The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much.
There are present at the Commission this morning Mr. Allen Dulles, Commissioner, and myself. I will be leaving fairly shortly to attend a session of the Supreme Court, but in my absence Mr. Allen Dulles will conduct the hearing.
Mr. Oswald, would you please rise and be sworn?
Do you solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God, in all of these proceedings at which you are to testify?
Mr. OSWALD. I do.
Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Chief Justice, if you may pardon me for just a second. In coming down to the Commission's hearing room, I left part of my file in Mr. Jenner's office, and I have asked Mr. Liebeler if he will step out and get the file.
The CHAIRMAN. You would like to wait for that?
Mr. McKENZIE.. If you don't mind.
The CHAIRMAN. I might add, while we are waiting for that to come back, that Mr. Albert Jennet, one of the associate counsel for the Commission, will conduct the examination this morning.
Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir.
I would like to state for the record that I have furnished to Mr. Jenner and Mr. Liebeler this morning a letter dated February 17, 1964, dictated by myself, but signed by Robert L. Oswald and witnessed by Pete White, Joan Connelly,
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and Henry Baer, which I would like for the Commission to have a copy of, and which I furnished to the Commission.
And, further, that I have furnished to Mr. jennet and Mr. Liebeler, counsel for the Commission, a letter dated February 18, 1964, signed by Mrs. Marina N. Oswald and witnessed by Declan P. Ford, Katherine N. Ford, and Joan Connelly.
The reason that I furnish these letters to the Commission I think will be obvious from a reading of the letters, and, secondly, will likewise explain my position to some extent.
And, further, I have furnished to Mr. Jenner and Mr. Liebeler letters dated February 18, 1964, addressed to Mr. James H. Martin, 11611 Farrar, Dallas, Tex. signed by myself, and likewise signed by Marina N. Oswald, and witnessed by Katherine Ford, a copy of which I furnished to Mr. Lee Rankin, counsel for the Commission; and a letter of like date, February 18, 1964, addressed to Mr. John M. Thorne, Thorne and Leach, Attorneys and Counselors-at-Law, of Grand Prairie, Tex., signed by Mrs. Marina N. Oswald, and witnessed by Mrs. Katherine Ford.
I furnish these to the Commission for the Commission's information.
The CHAIRMAN. Thank you. Thank you very much, Mr. McKenzie.
Is there anything, Mr. McKenzie, you would like to know about our procedure that you are not acquainted with? It is very informal.
Mr. McKENZIE.. Mr. Chief Justice, I will say this. This is the first time I have had the privilege of appearing before such a distinguished group of citizens of this country, headed by yourself, and that we are ready to proceed.
The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Jenner?
Mr. JENNER. Thank you, Mr. Chief Justice.
May I suggest the wisdom of identifying each of these series of four letters with an exhibit number, and may the reporter supply me with the next number.
The first letter mentioned by Mr. McKenzie is the letter dated February 17, 1964, addressed to Mr. McKenzie, and signed by Mr. Robert L. Oswald, witnessed by Mr. Henry Baer, Joan Connelly, and Peter White. That will be marked Commission Exhibit No. 272.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 272, for identification.)
Mr. JENNER. The second letter mentioned by Mr. McKenzie is dated February 18, 1964, also addressed to Mr. McKenzie, signed by Mrs. Marina N. Oswald, and witnessed by Declan P. Ford, Katherine N. Ford, and Joan Connelly. That will be marked Commission Exhibit 273.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 273, for identification.)
Mr. JENNER. The next letter is dated February 18, 1964, and addressed to Mr. James H. Martin, identified by Mr. McKenzie, and signed by Mrs. Marina N. Oswald, witnessed by Mrs. Katherine Ford. Two pages.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 274 for identification.)
Mr. JENNER. The next and last of the series is a letter of the same date, February 18, 1964, addressed to Mr. Thorne, John M. Thorne, signed by Mrs. Marina N. Oswald, and witnessed by Mrs. Katherine Ford, two pages.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 275 for identification.)
Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Jenner, if I may at this time, I would like to make one other statement to the Commission.
The CHAIRMAN. Before you do that, may I ask if you want those introduced into evidence?
Mr. JENNER. Yes. Thank you, Mr. Chief Justice.
I offer in evidence as Commission Exhibits 272 through 275, inclusive, the documents that have been so identified and marked.
The CHAIRMAN. They may be admitted.
(The documents heretofore marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 272 through 275, inclusive, for identification, were received in evidence.)
The CHAIRMAN. Now, Mr. McKenzie?
Mr. McKENZIE. Thank you, Mr. Chief Justice.
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We have brought with us the original copies of various letters received from--dating from 1959 through 1962, from Lee Harvey Oswald to Robert L. Oswald, together with some copies of a contract between Mr. Oswald---Robert Oswald, Marina Oswald, John Thorne, and James Martin. We bring those voluntarily and gladly. I would like to give them to the Commission with the understanding and stipulation that they will not-be released to the press or to any news media, with the exception and understanding of your final report.
The CHAIRMAN. That is the only purpose we would have in having them, and we will not release them to the press or to any other person.
Mr. McKENZIE. I understand that, sir. And the only reason I make that stipulation is for the record.
The CHAIRMAN. Yes. With the understanding that the Commission will use it for any purpose that is within the scope of the Executive order.
Mr. McKENZIE. Absolutely.
The CHAIRMAN. And for no other purpose.
Mr. McKENZIE. Absolutely.
The CHAIRMAN. Do you want to keep the originals and have copies made for us, or do you want to leave the originals with us?
Mr. McKENZIE. Well, sir, we have already started making the copies this morning.
The CHAIRMAN. That is all right. Either way you want to do it.
Mr. McKENZIE. Whichever way the Commission would prefer.
But we have started making copies this morning.
The CHAIRMAN. That is all right, then. You may do it that way.
Mr. Jenner, I guess you may proceed.
Mr. JENNER. Thank you, Mr. Chief Justice.
We have made copies of a number of the originals, additional ones of which are also being made. And as I identify the documents, I will be asking leave to introduce photostatic or xerox copies of the originals, and I will so indicate at the appropriate moment.
The CHAIRMAN. Very well.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chief Justice, Mr. Dulles--we have had a very short session with Mr. McKenzie and Mr. Oswald, which has been pleasant and of the character indicated here, with full cooperation by both gentlemen. And we have explained to Mr. Oswald that this particular phase of the matter covers Lee Harvey Oswald's entire life, and I added it also covered Mr. Oswald's life.
At times the particular thrust of the examination might not be particularly apparent to Mr. McKenzie, but he is at liberty to inquire as the case might be. But we are covering the entire lives.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Oswald, would you be good enough to state your full name?
Mr. OSWALD. Robert Edward Lee Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. And you reside now where?
Mr. OSWALD. At 1009 Sierra Drive, Denton, Tex.
Mr. JENNER. What is your present business or occupation?
Mr. OSWALD. I am employed by the Acme Brick Co. in the capacity of sales coordinator.
Mr. JENNER. What city or town?
Mr. OSWALD. Denton, Tex.
Mr. JENNER. What is the nature of your employment by that company?
Mr. OSWALD. I am in the market department of the Acme Brick Co., coordinating between the marketing and plant department, scheduling the plant's production, processing and handling all orders, correspondence' relating to the orders, and generally following through in the line of customers service, from prior to placing the orders by various customers, architects, home builders and so forth, to the completion of the invoices.
Mr. JENNER. And how long have you been so employed by the Acme Brick Co.?
Mr. OSWALD. April of this year, 1964, will be 4 years.
Mr. JENNER. And I think it might be helpful at this point--what is the date of your birth?
Mr. OSWALD. April 7, 1934. sir.
Mr. JENNER. Can you tell me how many years old you are?
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Mr. OSWALD. I will be 30 years old April 7, 1964.
The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Jenner, if you excuse me now, I am going to attend a session of the Supreme Court. And if you are here this afternoon, I will be back to be with you.
Mr. DULLES (presiding). You may proceed, Mr. Jenner.
Mr. JENNER. Thank you. Mr. Dulles.
Would you identify your family--Mrs. Oswald, and your two fine children?
Mr. OSWALD. Thank you My wife's name is Vada Marie Oswald. My daughter's name is Cathy Marie Oswald, and my son's name is Robert Lee Edward Oswald, Jr.
Mr. JENNER. The ages?
Mr. OSWALD. Cathy is 6 years old, and Robert Lee will be 3 years old this April.
Mr. JENNER. Would you give us Mrs. Oswald's maiden name?
Mr. OSWALD. Vada Marie Mercer.
Mr. JENNER. She is a native of your present town?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. She is from Keeter, Tex. My wife was raised on a farm. This community is located close to Boyd, Tex., which is approximately 35 miles northwest of Fort Worth.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Your father's full name?
Mr. OSWALD. Robert Edward Lee Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. Edward?
Mr. OSWALD..Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And he is now deceased?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. sir.
Mr. JENNER. And as I recall, he died in August of 1939.
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. You were then about what--5 years old?
Mr. OSWALD. Five years old, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Now, your mother is Marguerite Oswald?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall her middle name?
Mr. OSWALD. Claverie.
Mr. JENNER. And what was her maiden name?
Mr. OSWALD. I don't remember.
Mr. JENNER. I think it was Claverie. You have a brother, John Pic?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. John Edward Pic.
Mr. JENNER. And he is a stepbrother?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And born of a marriage of your mother with whom?
Mr. OSWALD. Pardon me. He is a half brother.
Mr. McKENZIE. He is a half brother, Mr. Jenner.
Mr. JENNER. I am sorry to say that meant the same thing to me. But I am probably in error. A half brother.
Mr. OSWALD. 1 am sorry. I didn't hear the next question.
Mr. JENNER. That is all right. You correct me when I am wrong. Don't hesitate to do that. Your half brother's father was whom?
Mr. OSWALD. This I do not know. I don't know his full name.
Mr. JENNER. Was it John, to the best of your recollection?
Mr. OSWALD. I would be of the opinion it was John.
Mr. JENNER. Have you ever met him?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not.
Mr. JENNER. You never had any acquaintance with him?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. I might further say 1 don't believe I have ever seen a picture identified as being John's father.
Mr. DULLES. You are speaking of the father now?
Mr. JENNER. That is correct, sir.
And your half brother, John Pic, is older than you, is he not?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Do you happen to recall his age?
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Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir; he is now 33 years old. His birthday is January 17, 1932.
Mr. JENNER. During your lifetime, you have had contact with him, have you not?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And as boys, the family lived together?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Now, your mother, Mrs. Marguerite Claverie Oswald, was mar-third time, was she not?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. To whom?
Mr. OSWALD. Mr. Edwin, I believe his middle initial was M. Ekdahl.
Mr. JENNER. When did that marriage take place, to the best of your recollection?
Mr. OSWALD. 1944 or early '45.
Mr. JENNER. Were you present on that occasion?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I was not----
Mr. JENNER. Had you become acquainted with him prior to the time of the marriage of your mother to Mr. Ekdahl?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I certainly did.
Mr. JENNER. Would you indicate the general circumstances?
Mr. OSWALD. Well, we was residing at Dallas, Tex. I don't recall the address. It was Victor Street.
Mr. JENNER. When you say "we"----
Mr. OSWALD. It was my mother, John Edward Pic, myself, and Lee Harvey Oswald.
Residing at the Victor Street address, in Dallas, Tex. I recall that perhaps more numerous occasions he was there now I can say three or four times he was around the house prior to the marriage.
Mr. JENNER. And what was the nature of your mother's employment, if she was employed in the period immediately preceding the marriage of your mother to Mr. Ekdahl?
Mr. OSWALD. I am Sorry, Sir, I don't remember.
Mr. JENNER. But she was employed?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. I do recall that this was quite a large house. It was a two-story house. And she was renting apartments.
Mr. JENNER. Serving as a rental agent?
Mr. OSWALD. No. She owned the house, to my knowledge she owned this house. I believe there were two upstairs apartments.
Mr. JENNER. In addition to that, was your mother separately or independently employed--that is independently from----
Mr. OSWALD. I believe so, sir. Where, I do not recall.
Mr. JENNER. And at that time all three of you boys were attending--would that be elementary school at that time?
Mr. OSWALD. Elementary school, that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. In Dallas?
Mr. OSWALD. Lee was not.
Mr. JENNER. I beg your pardon?
Mr. OSWALD. This would have been prior to Lee's sixth birthday, I believe, and he would not be attending at that particular time.
Mr. JENNER. But you and your brother John were?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Would you be good enough to tell the Commission as much as you can recall, especially of your early life elementary school days. We are not going to probe into this in any great length. But we would like the back-
ground and flavor in which the family lived.
Start as early as you have any reasonable recollection.
Mr. OSWALD. All right, sir.
I believe after my father's death in 1939. John was attending elementary school. We lived at the corner of Alvar and Galvez, in New Orleans, La. And the school was right across the street from us, elementary school.
John, of course, started-----
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Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, sir.
Did I ask you where you were born?
Mr. OSWALD. No, you did not.
Mr. JENNER. Would you state that?
Mr. OSWALD. I was born in New Orleans, La.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Excuse the interruption.
Mr. OSWALD. John attended the school approximately 2 years before I started elementary school. And during this time, the way I remember it, it was a frame building. But by the time I attended first grade it was a brick school building.
I do not recall attending for a very long period, because I believe----
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall the name of the elementary school?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not.
Mr. McKENZIE,. Mr. Jenner, if I may interrupt at this time Robert, in giving this narrative, tie it down as closely as you possibly can to date, to names, to street addresses--Just give us as complete detail as you possibly can.
Mr. OSWALD. All right, sir.
Mr. McKENZIE. The names of the school, the names of your teachers, and so forth, if you recall.
Mr. OSWALD. I believe I was at the point that I don't recall attending this 'school very much. I perhaps was there the first full year. However, approximately around this time---this would be in 1941--mother placed John Edward and myself in a Catholic school, which I do not recall the name of, but it was located in Algiers, La.
Mr. JENNER. Is that a suburb of New Orleans?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. McKENZIE. Just across the Mississippi River from New Orleans proper.
Mr. DULLES. Could I ask a question, Mr. Jenner?
In this school, did you live there, and spend the night there you were living there all the time?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. DULLES. Or were you going home?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; we were living there.
Lee, of course, at this time, was still very young, and he stayed with mother. I don't recall any address particularly at that time. We were at the Catholic school for approximately 1 year.
Mr. JENNER. That would take you to 1942.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
And, at that time we were moved by mother from the Catholic school and placed into the Bethlehem Orphan Home, in New Orleans, La.
We used to refer to it as the BOH.
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, sir, if I interrupt you at that point.
That would be 1942?
Mr. OSWALD. The best I can remember.
Mr. JENNER. Lee was only 3 years old. So the "we" did not include Lee, is that correct, sir?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. It included John Edward and myself.
Mr. JENNER. As Mr. Dulles inquired of you at the Catholic school--was this an orphan home in which both you and John lived at the home?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Twenty-four hours a day?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Where did Lee reside during this period of your life?
Mr. OSWALD. I do not recall the address at that particular time.
I might state that I know mother had sold the house on Alvar and Galvez Streets in New Orleans, and they were living elsewhere, I remember the house, but I cannot remember the address.
Mr. JENNER. I was particularly interested in whether Lee was living with your mother.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. He was at this time living with mother. And it is my understanding from her, during later years, discussing with her, that she had various maids or housekeepers come in to keep Lee at this early age.
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Mr. JENNER. So, I take it, she was employed.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Was she also employed during the 1 year when you boys were at the Catholic school?
Mr. OSWALD. I am sure--I feel sure she was, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Could we say, except as I might return to the subject specifically, that from the time of the death of your father, in August of 1939, at least until the time of her marriage with Mr. Ekdahl, she was always employed, either continuously or with short breaks?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; we certainly can.
Mr. JENNER. She was the sole support, as far as you know, of your family?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
I interrupted you--pardon me.
You and John entered the Bethlehem Orphan Home. Would you describe to us the nature of that school?
Mr. OSWALD. Well----
Mr. JENNER. Was it a public or private institution?
Mr. OSWALD. I would say it was a private home. The atmosphere generally--of course all the boys and girls were separated--I recall just one large dormitory building, sleeping area and so forth. The cafeteria was located----
Mr. DULLES. Could you tell us about how many there were in this orphanage, roughly? Was it 50, 100, 200?
Mr. OSWALD. I would say around 75 to 100, sir.
Mr. JENNER. So you are now about 8 years old, am I correct?
Mr. OSWALD. 1942--that would be correct, sir.
The cafeteria was located in a separate, or perhaps a wing of this large dormitory building. The school area was located in a separate building towards the entrance of the home. There was quite a large playground there, and quite a large playroom within that large dormitory.
Mr. McKENZIE. The home itself was located in New Orleans, is that correct?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. In the city proper, rather than a suburb?
Mr. OSWALD. I would say that was so, sir. I still recall that it was pretty close to the end of the St. Charles Street carline at that particular time.
My recollection of the atmosphere and the general conditions there it was nice, I had a lot of friends there at the home. It was a Christian atmosphere.
Going back to the Catholic school--we had to go to church every morning and so forth like that.
But here at the tables and so forth we had our grace and such as that. It was generally a Christian atmosphere there. He treated us well, I might add--better than the Catholic school did. They were not as strict as far as discipline was concerned, but they certainly kept us in line.
Mr. DULLES. Could I ask a question there? Was this a denominational school, or a publicly maintained school?
Mr. OSWALD. I don't believe it was a denominational school. I believe it was a public--I feel it was a private school or home. But that the religious background did not have anything to do with it. It might have been just a Protestant home.
Mr. JENNER. I am curious, if I may, Mr. Dulles--the name of this school or home is the Bethlehem Orphan Home. But neither of you boys was an orphan.
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. I take it, then, that apart from the name of the school, there were orphans and young people, children such as you, whose mothers, or perhaps fathers, were unable to take care of them during the daytime completely, and the school accepted children under those circumstances.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is my understanding.
Mr. JENNER. Therefore, it was not exclusively for orphans?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.
Mr. DULLES. I think I have read somewhere I would like to ask, if I may--I understand there had to be only one parent, though. I don't think if you had
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two parents you were eligible for this school. but I recollect that.
Is that the case, do you remember?
Mr. OSWALD. My recollection on that, sir, was that I do recall mother saying something that there was a little difficulty in placing us in there, because we were not orphans. But that they had from time to time made exceptions to this, where one parent was living and unable to attend the children fully during the day and so forth, and even at night----
Mr. JENNER. Now, you entered in 1942. Did you and John continue in this school--for what period of time?
Mr. OSWALD. Until we moved to Dallas, in 1944, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Before we get to that, has Mr. Oswald responded to the questions you had in mind, to describe the nature of the school?
Mr. DULLES. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Were you visited by your mother and Lee to the extent that she brought him along, when you and John were in the Bethlehem Orphan Home?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; we were. I do recall quite vividly that on Wednesdays---this perhaps might have been during the summer months only--that John and I would go to downtown New Orleans and meet mother at her place of employment, and either spend the afternoon with her, or she would give us money to go to a movie or something. And at this time mother was employed as a manager or assistant manager of a hosiery shop located on Canal Street. I don't recall the name of it, or the exact address of it.
Mr. JENNER. Would you be good enough to inform the Commission to the best of your recollection about weekends? Did your mother visit you on weekends? Were you free to return home and spend the weekend? Describe that, please.
Mr. OSWALD. I do not recall on the weekends--a weekend, I should say, that we visited mother. Normally, we just saw her once a week at that particular time. I do not recall--I have been thinking about this--seeing Lee too often at that time.
Mr. JENNER. You and John would be naturally curious to see him once in awhile?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I know we did. I cannot remember it too clearly. But I would say that it wasn't too frequently that we did see Lee.
Mr. JENNER. Now, you moved to Dallas in 1944?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Was there anything unusual prior to the time you moved to Dallas about your life and your relationships with your mother and with Lee, if any? Was there an event that is now etched on your mind?
Mr. OSWALD. I would like to back up there just a little bit. Lee was placed at the Bethlehem Orphan Home for approximately the last year that we were there.
Mr. JENNER. That would be, then, 1943?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. I see.
Mr. DULLES. He would have been 4 to 5 years old then?
Mr. JENNER. Yes. He was born in October 1939. So he would then be approximately 4--well, when he was placed in Bethlehem Home it was some time during the year 1943, to the best of your recollection?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Would you be good enough to relate to the Commission the circumstances that brought that about? What do you recall as to why?
Mr. OSWALD. My opinion on that, sir, was this. That mother had wanted to bring Lee to the home at an earlier date, but that they had a minimum age required before he could be placed in there, because they did not have any real small children there. I mean there was no nursery there that I recall.. And there was no very young children. When I say very young--say under 3 years old.
I remember some children there that perhaps were four or three and a half years old.
Mr. JENNER. I take it, Mr. Oswald, your mother put Lee in the orphan
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home at the first opportunity open to her under the rules or policy of the Bethlehem Orphan Home in that respect.
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Now, did she come to visit the home when Lee was placed in the home?
If I may, you recall you said you were free on Wednesdays, it may have been limited to the summer time, and you and John would go into the New Orleans town district and visit your mother.
Did she come to see Lee? Does that stimulate your recollection that she did come to visit?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; she did come to visit us. I recall after Lee was placed in the home, that all three of us would go down and visit mother, and we always took Lee with us.
Mr. JENNER. I see. What contact did you have with Lee in that 1-year period; in 1943, when he was with you boys in the home?
Mr. OSWALD. John and I both looked on Lee as our, kid brother, and we stayed pretty close to him, and defended him whenever we had to.
Mr. JENNER. How did Lee get along during those days? Let's confine it to up to 1944, when you moved to Dallas.
Mr. OSWALD. I don't recall any instance where it would stand out in my mind that he did not get along with anybody.
Mr. JENNER. He had the normal life of a 4-year-old at that particular time .. got into his fights to the extent everyone else did?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. McKENZIE. You mean at the time he was 4 years old?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. There may be others who would be interested in his course of conduct and his reactions even at age 4. You will forgive me for going into that.
Mr. OSWALD. Certainly.
Mr. JENNER. But your present recollection, as far as Lee's relationship with other 4-year-olds or 5's or 3's, his general course of conduct, with regard to the interplay between himself and others at or near his age, is what you would describe as normal?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Now we are moving to Dallas in 1944. You brought out the fact that Lee became enrolled in Bethlehem Orphan Home, because I asked you questions whether there was anything unusual etched on your mind at that time that had occurred up to the point of your moving to Dallas. Was there anything else that this discussion, that is now stimulated that you would like to report?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I cannot think of anything else.
Mr. JENNER. Now, what was the reason you moved to Dallas?
Mr. OSWALD. I don't really know, sir. Of course we were quite happy to leave the Bethlehem Orphan Home. By that, I don't mean to imply that they didn't treat us well there. But, of course, we were quite happy to be with mother again, all of us together.
As to the reason why mother moved us to Dallas, I do not know.
Mr. JENNER. Now, when you moved to Dallas, you resided--can you recall the address or at least approximately where you lived in Dallas?
Mr. OSWALD. As I recall, it was Victor Street. It was a corner house, a large two-story white I feel sure it was a frame white house. The garage was to the back side of the house. Victor Street ran in front of the house, and another street down the side where you entered the garage.
Mr. JENNER. I don't think I asked you this. It is a little bit out of order.
Do you happen to recall your brother John's date of birth?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; you did ask me that. It was January 17, 1932.
Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Thank you.
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Your mother, did she become immediately employed in Dallas, or had she already arranged for employment in Dallas?
Mr. OSWALD. This I do not recall, sir. I feel more like that she Perhaps had arranged for employment in Dallas before we moved there. I would think this would be the natural thing to do. We had never been to Texas before. And, to my knowledge, she didn't know anybody in Texas.
And why we moved to Dallas, I certainly don't recall any reason at all.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have any relatives in Dallas?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Where did Mr. Ekdahl reside? Was he living in or a native of Dallas?
Mr. OSWALD. I understand Mr. Ekdahl was from Boston, Mass., and he was at that time I believe that is correct, sir--at least the way I remember it employed by the Texas Electric Co.
Mr. JENNER. At what office?
Mr. OSWALD. At Dallas. It might not have been Texas Electric. Texas Power and Light, Perhaps--something like that.
Mr. JENNER. But Mr. Ekdahl was then living in Dallas when you, your mother, your brother John, and your brother Lee moved to Dallas?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And had you become you boys become acquainted with Mr. Ekdahl prior to the time you moved to Dallas?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And do you recall any discussion of Mr. Ekdahl prior to the time of your moving to Dallas?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Now, your education was, of course, continued when you moved to Dallas.
Would you tell us about that--all three of you? You and your brother John first, because Lee was not yet of school age.
Mr. OSWALD. All right, sir.
I recall the elementary school there in Dallas. It was the Davy Crockett Elementary School, which was approximately three or four blocks from the house.
Mr. DULLES. What was that name?
Mr. OSWALD. Davy Crockett.
Mr. JENNER. Both you and your brother John were enrolled?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. And there was--I believe it was a city park right across the street from this elementary school that I recall playing ping pong and croquet and swimming over there, and such as that.
Mr. JENNER. This period of your life, as you recall it, was a pleasant one?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And except for the restrictions that you and John encountered in the Catholic school and in the Bethlehem Orphan Home, what is your recollection of that early period of your life subject to those limitations--normal and pleasant?
Mr. OSWALD. The only thing I can remember--I did have a little difficulty because I had something of a southern drawl.
Mr. JENNER. When you reached Texas?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. And I do recall having a little difficulty in school myself, to make myself clearly understood.
Mr. DULLES. May I ask a question there?
When you went to the Davy Crockett School, was that a school where you lived, or did you live at home and just attend the school during the school hours?
Mr. OSWALD. That was a public school in Dallas, and we did not live there. We lived at home.
Mr. DULLES. And your mother then was employed, as I understand it.
Mr. OSWALD. To the best of my knowledge I feel certain she was employed.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall the nature of her employment there?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not.
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Mr. JENNER. She was employed full-time during the daytime, home on weekends?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Now, what was happening to Lee when you were living in Dallas--in the sense of who took care of him during the daytime, if anyone? What was done for his comfort?
Mr. OSWALD. This I don't remember, sir. I don't remember any housekeeper or any maid that mother had at this time. Something is coming into my mind about a day nursery. I think perhaps----
Mr. JENNER. A day nursery?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir--that Lee was taken to during the day when Mother was working, and brought home with her at night. I believe that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Would you boys take him to the day nursery and bring him home?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did you play any part in that at all?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I do not have any recollection of taking Lee to the day nursery or bringing him back.
Mr. JENNER. Now, would you please indicate how long you remained in the Elementary School, you and John?
Mr. OSWALD Say for 1 year, sir, 1 school year.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Now, during this year, did you become acquainted with Mr. Ekdahl?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I would say towards the latter part of that school year.
Mr. JENNER. He could come--he did on occasion come to visit your mother's home?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Would you please indicate whether the contact that you boys had with Mr. Ekdahl about that--that is, he would visit the home occasionally?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did he take you boys out?
Mr. OSWALD. I don't recall. I think perhaps on maybe two occasions we did go to the zoo. I don't recall any other occasions.
Mr. JENNER. We now have you towards the latter part of the year--you were now 9 years old. Am I correct about that?
Mr. OSWALD. 1944, I would be 10 years old.
Mr. JENNER. Your brother John was 12?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And your brother Lee was then 5?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did you continue when did you change you said you stayed at Davy Crockett Elementary School a year. And then you entered what school?
Mr. OSWALD. In the fall of that year we entered Chamberlain-Hunt Military Academy, at Port Gibson, Miss. That was the fall of 1945.
Mr. JENNER. You and John?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Now, what was the date that you gave me as to the marriage of your mother and Mr. Ekdahl?
Mr. OSWALD. Approximately the early part of 1944. That is what I stated before. And I think now that it would be more correct--after we completed the year at Davy Crockett, 1 believe they were married shortly after the end of the school year.
Mr. JENNER. That is in June, probably?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; somewhere along that time.
Mr. JENNER. And that would be June of '44?
Mr. McKENZIE. June of '45.
Mr. JENNER. So that following the marriage of your mother and Mr. 'Ekdahl--what was his full name?
Mr. OSWALD. Edwin A. Ekdahl. I believe his middle initial was "A."
Mr. JENNER. And he was employed, as you stated, by a utility company in Dallas at that time?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
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Mr. JENNER. Now, do you have a recollection or did you come to learn the arrangements, if any, between Mr. Ekdahl and your mother as to the financing of the attendance of yourself and your brother John at Chamberlain-Hunt Military Academy?
Mr. OSWALD. My mother told us that she was taking care of all the expenses at the Academy.
Mr. JENNER. She told you at this time?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. This is my recollection.
Mr. JENNER. And that was your understanding of both you and John at that particular time?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. That she was financing your attendance at the military academy?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. DULLES. Was she working at that time, or during the period that she' was married to Mr. Ekdahl was she a housewife?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe after the marriage to Mr. Ekdahl, she was not working.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have a conversation with her, and did you then come to learn, or have you subsequently come to learn as to how she did finance your attendance at the military academy?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not. I assume at that particular time that--I did not know the quantity of life insurance that my father had when he passed away. I thought it was perhaps substantial. Perhaps to me at that time,a young age, $4,000 or $5,000 was a lot of money. From the insurance money, from my father's death, she was able to place us in this military school in Mississippi.
Mr. JENNER. Do I recall correctly that you also testified earlier that your mother sold--there was a home in New Orleans which was sold?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And possibly some of the proceeds of the sale of that home were still intact?
Mr. OSWALD. This would be my opinion, that it was. I do not know if the home was paid for or anything.
Mr. JENNER. This is all speculation?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Jennet, if I may interrupt.
Robert, don't speculate, and don't give any conjecture. Tell what you know, and give them the facts as fully as possible. But I am confident that the Cornmission is not interested in any speculation.
Mr. JENNER. And if you do speculate, tell us so.
Mr. McKENZIE. Yes--indicate that you are speculating.
Mr. DULLES. Do we know the amount of insurance on Mr. Oswald's life?
Mr. JENNER. I cannot give you the figure, but it is small.
Mr. DULLES. It is known in the record?
Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir.
Representative FORD. May I ask a question?
Following your mother's marriage to Mr. Ekdahl, did he move in to the residence where you were living, or vice versa, or what were the circumstances?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. He did move into the home on Victor Street, following the marriage.
Mr. DULLES. You were living, though, in the military academy. Was that a school where you lived?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. DULLES. You lived there?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. DULLES. Day and night?
Mr. OSWALD. During the period that we went to the military school, we stayed there day and night, through the 9 months of the school year.
Mr. JENNER. What was the distance from Dallas--in general--to the military school?
Mr. McKENZIE. It is approximately 600 or 700 miles.
Mr. OSWALD. It was 30 miles south of Vicksburg, Miss.
Mr. JENNER. Quite a distance?
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Mr OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. DULLES. So you could not go home weekends?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; we did not go home weekends.
Mr. JENNER. From the time of the marriage of your mother to Mr. Ekdahl, to the time you boys left for military school, you all lived in the home on Victor Street?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. He moved into the home immediately upon the marriage?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. DULLES. Could I ask one question?
Was there a summer holiday, then, when you went home from the military academy?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. DULLES. You were home for 3 months, roughly?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. DULLES. That would be in the summer of '45?
Mr. OSWALD. The summer of '46.
Mr. JENNER. It might help if you tell us how long you and John remained at the military school.
Mr. OSWALD. Three school years.
Mr. JENNER. That would be in 1945, 1946, and 1947.
So that you left the military school approximately in June of 1947, is that correct?
Mr. OSWALD. That would be correct.
Mr. JENNER. '48 or '47?
Mr. OSWALD. Well, the school year would be 1945 through '46 would be 1 year, '46 through '47 would be 2 years, '47 through '48 would be the third year.
Mr. JENNER. All right. June of '48?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. And I might say there, when school--the. last year that we were t. here, when school was completed, mother had indicated to us that she wanted us to go to summer school and stay up there that summer. And we did, John and I, stay there at the school after practically all the other ones had left, because I recall helping pack away some old Springfield rifles at that time in Cosmolene.
Mr. JENNER. The marriage of your mother and Mr. Ekdahl terminated in divorce, as I recall it.
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall approximately when that was?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. I believe that this would be some time in '47. I believe she had divorced Mr. Ekdahl before our final year at the academy.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Liebeler will get the date. I don't recall it myself at the moment.
Did your mother and Mr. Ekdahl have occasion during this 3-year period, plus the summer school, to visit you and John in the military academy?
Mr. OSWALD..Yes sir; they did. I recall Mr. Ekdahl coming there with mother and Lee in a 1939 Buick at that time, that I recall. I don't recall many occasions that Mr. Ekdahl was there. I might state that at Christmas time I believe on each year that we were up at the military school that we returned home. By home, I mean Fort Worth, or wherever they were living. One year I believe it was Benbrook, Tex., outside of Fort Worth.
Mr. JENNER. Now, would you be good enough, having mentioned that, to state for the record where your mother and Mr. Ekdahl resided during the period of time you were at the military school?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe the first year----
Mr. JENNER. Chronologically.
Mr. OSWALD. The first year that we attended there, Mr. Ekdahl was on the road quite a bit. And they had during the winter of 1945 gone to Boston, where they stayed, I would say, for approximately 6 months. I understand Mr. Ekdahl had been married and had a son by a prior marriage, and they had lived together, all of them--Lee, my mother, Mr. Ekdahl, and his son--in Boston. But that he was on the road quite a bit. And I recall a picture of mother and Lee in Arizona.
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Mr. JENNER. Living in Arizona?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; not living. On one of the trips.
Mr. JENNER. I see.
Representative FORD. One of the trips with Mr. Ekdahl?
Mr. OSWALD. Ekdahl, and mother and Lee had gone along with him. Whether this was a business trip or a vacation trip, I don't recall.
Mr. JENNER. I see.
Following their living for 6 months in Boston, where did they live thereafter, during that period of time, until the divorce?
Mr. OSWALD. 1 believe after they left Massachusetts, they moved to Benbrook, Tex., and resided at Benbrook, Tex.
Mr. JENNER. And where is Benbrook with respect to Dallas?
Mr. OSWALD. It is--well, with respect to Fort Worth, that to me would be easier to say, it is just a little ways northwest of Fort Worth, on the edge of the city limits of Fort Worth now. At this particular time it was just more or less a wide spot in the road. The house---I recall going there, perhaps this was during Christmas leave from the academy--the house was a good sized stone home that had some acreage with it. There was a creek that was Perhaps 400 or 500 yards behind the house. I remember, I believe, right before we arrived on this first occasion, Lee had found a skunk out there. He didn't know what a skunk was, but he found out.
Mr. McKENZIE. Benbrook is a suburb of Fort Worth.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, Benbrook is a suburb of Fort Worth.
As I indicated, at that time----
Mr. JENNER. Could you fix the year?
Mr. OSWALD. This would be I feel certain that this was the first year that we were in military school, and the first Christmas.
Mr. JENNER. The first Christmas. That would be Christmas 1945.
Mr. OSWALD. Pardon me. Let me back up earlier. They were in Massachusetts at that time. This would be the second year.
Mr. JENNER. I take it, then, the first Christmas, 1945, included the Period when your mother, Mr. Ekdahl, and Lee resided in Boston with Mr. Ekdahl's son by a former marriage.
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And that the living in Benbrook, Tex., followed the termination of the stay in Boston?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
But I do recall now the first Christmas that I was at the military school, because they were so far away, and it was impractical to travel that distance in that length of time that John went with some friends of his that he made at the academy and stayed at their home I don't recall where.
I remember I went with one of my friends and stayed at his home during Christmas.
Mr. JENNER. These were friends of yours in the academy?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. And their parents agreed to that--because they didn't want us to stay up ill the academy at Christmas time more or less by ourselves. They wanted to have us with them.
Mr. JENNER. You seem to have a rather vivid recollection of the Benbrook, Tex., home. I take .it that during a summer vacation you lived in Benbrook, Tex., with your mother and Mr. Ekdahl and Lee.
Mr. OSWALD. This particular house I refer to, a native stone home I believe that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. So that you did have at least two summers at home while you were at the military academy, and the third summer your mother asked you to stay during summer school, and you did not come home?
Mr. OSWALD. She asked us, and it was the intent that we stay. But at the last moment we did not go to summer school that year at the academy. We did come to Fort Worth.
Mr. JENNER. I see.
Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Jenner, may I interrupt you please?
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Robert, when did you leave, or when did your mother sell the house on Victor Street in Dallas, Tex.. if you recall?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe she sold it at the time that they moved to Boston. Mass.
Mr. McKENZIE. That was some time prior to Christmas of 1945, is that correct?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
If I may ask this, sir: If someone would furnish me the date of the divorce. I believe this would help tie down some other dates.
Mr. McKENZIE. Off the record. (Discussion off the record.)
Mr. McKENZIE. I want to assure the Commission and counsel that the copy of the transcript of Robert Oswald's testimony will not be given to the press until such time as the Commission makes its final report--if at that time.
Representative FORD. I think that is most important, that we don't indicate that they will never be given to the press.
Mr. DULLES. No. That was made clear before you came in--that this would be available for use in connection with the report in any way that the Commission saw fit.
Mr. JENNER. Is it all right to proceed, sir?
Mr. DULLES. Yes. please. Mr. Jenner.
Mr. JENNER. The second residence, then, was--I mean the second one during this particular period we were talking about, was in Benbrook, Tex.
How long, or over what period of time did your family reside in Benbrook, Tex.?
Mr. OSWALD. I would say at least approximately a year or a year and a half at that particular house.
Mr. JENNER. You say in that particular house. Did they occupy another home in Benbrook. Tex.?
Mr. OSWALD. This was---on our return from military school. the last year we attended, when we returned, mother had purchased a small home there in Benbrook, a little bit closer in to Fort Worth.
Mr. DULLES. This was after the divorce?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; this was after the divorce.
Representative FORD. She owned the original house in Benbrook?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; not the stone house. I believe Mr. Ekdahl had rented that house, or leased it.
Representative FORD. Then she purchased this second house?
Mr. OSWALD. That is right. After the divorce, she purchased this smaller home.
Mr. JENNER. Until you boys returned from military academy. or at least until the time of the divorce of your mother and Mr. Ekdahl. she was not employed? She was home?
Mr. OSWALD. To my knowledge, that is correct. She was not employed at that time, or during the marriage to Mr. Ekdahl--she was not employed at any time I am aware of.
Mr. JENNER. And able to give the normal and full time and attention of a mother to her son, Lee?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, to the best of my knowledge.
Mr. JENNER. Well, during the summertime, when you did spend summer vacations back in Benbrook, Tex., you had an opportunity to observe personally on this subject, did you not?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. That your mother was not employed. and she was caring for Lee during that period?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did she have any assistance?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, she did not. None that I recall.
Mr. JENNER. No household help?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; none that I recall.
Mr. DULLES. Could I ask a question there? Maybe you are going to cover
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that. I would like to ask as to--was Lee Harvey going to kindergarten at this time, or where was he from an educational point of view? He was 7 or 8 years old now.
Mr. JENNER. Yes. He was 8 years old--he was 6 years old when they moved to-the commencement of the military school period, your brother, Lee, was 6 years old?
Mr. OSWALD. Six years old.
Mr. JENNER. And that is about the time when you enter elementary school, is it not?
Mr. OSWALD. That I entered elementary school?
Mr. JENNER. No---children generally.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
I don't believe, however, though, that Lee at the age of 6 went to elementary school.
Mr. JENNER. Would you tell us what the circumstances were in that connection, to the best of your recollection, and now.
Mr. OSWALD. All right, sir. To the best of my recollection, it was that Mr. Ekdahl was traveling quite a bit, and that mother was traveling with him, and Lee did not attend a school during that year.
Mr. JENNER. Did Lee travel with them?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe that he did during that time.
Mr. JENNER. That is your best recollection?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is my best recollection.
Mr. JENNER. You are trying not to speculate.
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. McKENZIE. Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. JENNER. Back on the record.
Mr. McKENZIE. I believe, to my best recollection, that the school age-- commencement age was 7 years old.
Mr. DULLES. I think what we are trying to get at is what was Lee doing--was he with the mother, was he in some kind of kindergarten?
Do you recall during those 3 years you were in the military academy--where was Lee?
Representative FORD. When you say the school age, in Texas, you mean the mandatory attendance age?
Mr. JAWORSKI That is correct.
Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, that is what I have reference to.
Mr. JAWORSKI I recall, if I may add, at the age of 6, children were normally sent to kindergarten in those days.
Mr. JENNER. As you have now related it to us, Mr. Oswald, in this period, let's call it the military school period because we have identified the time question--at the commencement Lee was then 6 years old. And as we now learn, normally that would be a kindergarten period.
He was traveling or accompanied his mother, your mother, and Mr. Ekdahl in their travels in connection with Mr. Ekdahl's business, and he was not either in kindergarten or otherwise in school.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I am of this opinion--he was not.
Mr. JENNER. And that was your information at the time that you and John were attending military school?
Mr. OSWALD. That would be correct, sir.
Mr. DULLES. Do you know where he was, and who was taking care of him during that period--if your mother was traveling with Mr. Ekdahl?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe Lee was going with them, sir, during these travels. I don't recall---other than this one photograph-- at one time they were out in Arizona. I don't recall any other places that they traveled to. I am sure mother, she was writing us quite frequently, John and I, usually just one letter to both of us--any other names or areas that they had traveled during this period.
Mr. JENNER. Now, may we proceed to the succeeding school period, which would be the year '46-'47. He is now at that time 7 years of age. Your mother and Mr. Ekdahl and Lee were then residing in Benbrook, Tex.
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Mr. OSWALD. Benbrook; yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did Lee enter elementary school at that time?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; he did.
I don't know if the school name was Benbrook School.
Mr. JENNER. It was an elementary school?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I know where it is located there and everything. I believe it is closed down now.
Mr. JENNER. You learned of this during the summer vacation, or from letters from your mother?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir--perhaps both---one way or the other during that period we were aware that Lee was attending school in Benbrook.
Mr. JENNER. Up to this point what were the relationships between yourself and your brother John? Cordial and normal brother relationships?
Mr. OSWALD. I might say then as now they were cordial. We always got along. He was a little bit older than I was, of course. He had his group of friends, I had mine. We got along just fine.
Mr. JENNER. And the relationship of your brother John and yourself on the one hand, and Lee on the other--let us take the 6- to 7- to 8-year-old period.
Mr. OSWALD. John and I both, I feel, especially from my side, that we were his big brothers, and when we were around Lee we took care of him. We played together, to some extent, anyway. Perhaps our interests were a little bit different than Lee's at that early age of his life---a spread of 5 years between Lee and I and 7 years between Lee and John.
Mr. JENNER. Yes. That is quite a gap.
A boy 6 years old who has a brother 11 years old--that would be you--and a brother 13 years old, that would be John--at that age, that is quite a gap.
Did you spend much time with him, for example, when you were home during the summer vacations?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I would say we did spend quite a bit of time both John and I--with Lee.
I recall going fishing, things like that. But mostly I recall staying at the house at Benbrook, the native stone home, out there, and staying within the confines out there, and playing, and staying out there most of the time.
I do recall on a number of occasions that Mr. Ekdahl, my mother, and all three of us would drive into Fort Worth and go to the movie theater, which at that time was the closest one coming in from Benbrook into Fort Worth. I recall going there quite a few times.
Mr. JENNER. Would you relate for us as you recall now the relationships between you and John--between you boys and your mother? Was that a pleasant one? Were there any difficulties that you now recall? Personality-wise, for example.
Mr. OSWALD. None that I recall. At that time, I do recall one instance out there at the house, stone house there in Benbrook--my mother was a little upset with Mr. Ekdahl over the fact that--this was, I am sure, the second Christmas we were there from military school.
Mr. JENNER. That would be 1947?
Mr. OSWALD. That would be 1947, Christmas 1946. He was showering us with candies, cokes, and so forth. And mother thought that he was overdoing it. And we argued the other way. We was on Mr. Ekdahl's side.
Mr. JENNER. But your relations with your mother, as you recall them now, during this period were pleasant, normal, and you were having no difficulties with her?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; pleasant memories to me.
Mr. JENNER. Anything other than the difficulties two lively boys have when they are naughty?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. DULLES. Were you conscious at that time of the growing difficulty between your mother and Mr. Ekdahl? Was that apparent at that time? Or did that only come later?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. At that time, it was not apparent to me.
Mr. DULLES. At no time was that a factor in your life, particularly?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. I would say at no time it was. In moving up perhaps
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there to the time of the divorce and everything, I don't remember when Mr. Ekdahl moved out of the house. At that time we were living on Eighth Avenue in Fort Worth. This was during a summer period there. And I think this was the summer after the second year that we attended there this would be the summer of 1947.
Mr. DULLES. If it is agreeable, I think we will adjourn for just a minute. It is now 11 o'clock.
Representative FORD. Mr. Dulles, may I suggest that we get what the law was in Texas at the time, as to when children mandatorily had to attend school? I think that can be checked out very simply and put in the record.
Mr. DULLES. Yes. I think that should be in the record.
(Brief recess.)
Mr. DULLES. The Commission will come to order. We will resume, Mr. Jenner, with your questions.
Mr. JENNER. Thank you.
It may well be, Mr. Chairman, that the Exhibits 272 through 275, which although already admitted in evidence, may play some part in these proceedings at some future date. And may I further qualify the exhibits.
Mr. DULLES. Certainly.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. McKenzie, would you be good enough to hand them to the witness?
Would you turn to the second page of Exhibit No. 272, Mr. Oswald? Are you familiar with the signatures on the second page of that exhibit?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, I am.
Mr. JENNER. And would you identify them, please, in the order in which they appear, and state whether or not they are the signatures of the persons who purported to have signed?
Mr. OSWALD. My signature, Robert L. Oswald, I signed it. Witnessed by Henry Baer, Joan Connelly, and Pete White. And they are known to me.
Mr. JENNER. Did they affix those signatures in your presence?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; they did.
Mr. JENNER. And they are persons known to you?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Would you identify them for the record?
Mr. OSWALD. Mr. Henry Baer is a partner in William A. McKenzie's law firm, in Dallas, Tex.
Mr. JENNER. He is Mr. McKenzie's partner?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes.
Miss Joan Connelly is the secretary in that firm.
And Mr. Pete White is an associate partner in the law firm of Mr. McKenzie.
Mr. JENNER. I take it, then, that that document was executed in Mr. McKenzie's office.
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. MCKENZIE. Now, Mr. Jenner, may I interrupt at this point? I would like to add for the record that I was not present at the time that this letter was executed or witnessed. However, I did dictate it in the presence of Mr. Oswald and, of course, to my secretary, and, of course, to my partner, Henry Baer.
Mr. JENNER. Is Miss Connelly your secretary?
Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Now, would you take the second letter in that group, and give me the exhibit number--turn to the exhibit page and identify the situation similarly, if you are acquainted with them, and state whether it was signed in your presence and where.
Mr. OSWALD. Commission Exhibit No. 273---I was not present when this letter was signed.
Mr. JENNER. Does the letter bear your signature?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it does not.
Mr. JENNER. Are you familiar with the signatures of those who purported to have signed it?
Mr. OSWALD. I am not familiar with the signature I am familiar with the
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signature of Mrs. Marina N. Oswald. I am not familiar with the signature of Mr. Declan P. Ford or his wife, Katherine N. Ford.
I am familiar with the signature of Joan Connelly, Mr. McKenzie's secretary.
Mr. JENNER. Would you please identify who Mr. and Mrs. Ford are?
Mr. OSWALD. The best way I could do that, I believe, is that they are friends of Marina N. Oswald. I became acquainted with Mrs. Ford on Wednesday 2 weeks ago, whatever date that is, and Mr. Ford the following day.
Mr. JENNER. What were the circumstances under which you became acquainted with Mrs. Ford?
Mr. OSWALD. Pardon me just a minute. I would like to correct that.
It was Tuesday rather than Wednesday 2 weeks ago that I first became acquainted with Mrs. Ford.
At that time, Mrs. Ford acted as an interpreter between Mr. Thorne and myself to relate to Mrs. Marina Oswald what we were talking about.
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, sir. You mentioned a Mr. Thorne?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. That is Mr. John Thorne who at that time was the attorney for Mrs. Marina Oswald?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And where did this take place?
Mr. OSWALD. At my residence, at 1009 Sierra Drive, Denton, Tex.
Mr. JENNER. Who was present at that time in addition to yourself, Mr. Thorne, and Mrs. Ford?
Mr. OSWALD. My wife, Vada Marie Oswald, was present.
Mr. JENNER. And your acquaintance with Mr. Ford, you say, was the following day?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Where did that take place, and in whose presence?
Mr. OSWALD. At my residence, again, in Denton, Tex., in the presence of my wife, Vada, Mrs. Marina Oswald, and Mrs. Kathy Ford.
Mr. JENNER. As to Mrs. Ford, it is 2 weeks ago last Tuesday, or 2 weeks ago today?
Mr. OSWALD. Pardon me just a minute.
Mr. McKENZIE. Two weeks ago this past Tuesday.
Mr. OSWALD. Pardon me.
Mr. JENNER. I wish you would hesitate and make reasonably certain of this.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I believe I have erred here.
Instead of being 2 weeks ago this past Tuesday, it was a week ago Tuesday that I first met Kathy Ford. And it was the following day, on that Wednesday, that I met Mr. Ford. In other words, I wish to correct it was not 2 weeks ago, but 1 week ago.
Mr. JENNER. Now that you have a calendar before you, would you give us the date so we will have it in the record now?
Mr. OSWALD. On Tuesday, February 11, 1964, was the day I first met Mrs. Kathy Ford in the presence of Mr. John Thorne and my wife, Vada, in my home in Denton, Tex.
On February 12th I met Mr. Ford in the presence of my wife in my residence at Denton, Tex.
Mr. JENNER. Returning to the exhibit to which you have been directing your attention, which is No. 273, you were able to identify Mrs. Marina Oswald's signature, and Miss Connelly's?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. The others you were unable to identify?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Would you turn, then, to the next exhibit, give us the number?
Mr. OSWALD. Commission Exhibit No. 274.
Mr. JENNER. Is it signed on its face?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Well, then, directing your attention to the first page of the exhibit, does it bear a signature?
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Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it does.
Mr. JENNER. Are you familiar with that signature?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I am..
Mr. JENNER. Whose signature is it?
Mr. OSWALD. Mr. William A. McKenzie.
Mr. JENNER. This is the Mr. McKenzie present here representing you?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And does that exhibit consist of more than 1 page?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it does.
Mr. JENNER. Turn to the second page. Does it bear a signature?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it does.
Mr. JENNER. Are you familiar with those signatures?
Mr. OSWALD. The two signatures appear on the second page. One I am familiar with--Mrs. Marina Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, sir. Is that the first of those that are in a series?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct
Mr. JENNER. And you are familiar with that, and that is her signature?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. The next signature purports to be that of whom?
Mr. OSWALD. Mrs. Katherine Ford.
Mr. JENNER. And your testimony, if I repeated the questions that I did as to the previous exhibit, regarding Mrs. Ford, would be the same? You are not familiar with her signature?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And the next signature, please?
Mr. OSWALD. Sir?
Mr. JENNER. The next signature?
Mr. OSWALD. That is the only two signatures that appear on that second page.
Mr. JENNER. Would you proceed to the next exhibit?
Mr. OSWALD. 275.
Mr. JENNER. That consists of how many pages?
Mr. OSWALD. Two pages.
Mr. JENNER. Does it bear a signature on the first page?
Mr. OSWALD. There is a signature on the first page. The signature is Mr. William A. McKenzie.
Mr. JENNER. You are familiar with that signature, and that is his signature?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. The same gentleman we have identified?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Are there any signatures on the second page of that exhibit?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. There are two signatures on the second page, and in order as they appear----
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. Are you familiar with either of them?
Mr. OSWALD. I am familiar with one of them.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Let's take the first one, which is what?
Mr. OSWALD. Mrs. Marina N. Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. You are familiar with her signature?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I am.
Mr. JENNER. Is that her signature?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. I would say that was her signature.
Mr. JENNER. And the second name appears to be that of whom?
Mr. OSWALD. Mrs. Katherine Ford.
Mr. JENNER. And your testimony with respect to her, were I to pursue it, would be the same as you testified to a previous exhibit, insofar as your familiarity with her signature is concerned?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Thank you, sir.
Forgive the interruption, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. DULLES. That is all right.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, Mr. McKenzie has produced for us and tendered to us four documents, during the recess, which I would wish to identify. They
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have a relationship to the exhibits, the signatures of which I have just finished having identified.
Would you mark those, please, Mr. Liebeler?
Mr. DULLES. Do you wish these admitted as exhibits?
Mr. JENNER. If you please, sir. I would like to identify the exhibits and indicate their content first. I would call on you, Mr. McKenzie, to identify the series of exhibits. They are numbered, Mr. Chairman, Commission Exhibits 276, 277, 278, and 279. If you will identify them, I may have some questions of the witness.
Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Chairman, Exhibit No. 276 is a contract dated December 6, 1963, addressed to Mr. James H. Martin, Dallas, Tex., and signed by Mrs. Marina N. Oswald, consisting of four pages.
Mr. DULLES. I wish that admitted at this time with that description.
Mr. JENNER. If I may put one question to the witness: Mr. Oswald, would you look at the last page of that exhibit? Does it purport to bear a signature?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Are you familiar with that signature?
Mr. OSWALD. There are three signatures.
Mr. JENNER. Are you familiar with all of them?
Mr. OSWALD. May I ask my attorney something here?
Mr. JENNER. Surely.
Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Jenner, if I may interrupt you, and pardon me for doing so---on page 3 there is likewise a signature. And I think perhaps he should start at that page.
Mr. JENNER. That is a fine suggestion.
Will you now refer to page 3. Does it bear a signature?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it does.
Mr. JENNER. Are you familiar with that signature?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I am.
Mr. JENNER. Whose signature is it?
Mr. OSWALD. Mrs. Marina N. Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. Turn to page 4. There are several signatures on that page, is that correct?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. There are three.
Mr. JENNER. Are you familiar with any of them?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I am.
Mr. JENNER. Would you take them in order, taking the uppermost one first. Indicate whether you are familiar with that signature, and whose signature it is.
Mr. OSWALD. It is my own signature, Robert Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. The next under that?
Mr. OSWALD. Mr. James H. Martin.
Mr. JENNER. Are you familiar with that signature?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And it is his signature?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Who is Mr. James H. Martin?
Mr. OSWALD. He was, at that time, when this contract was signed. appointed as Marina's business agent. But employed at the Inn of the Six Flags at Arlington, Tex.
Mr. JENNER. He has been identified in previous sessions before the Commission.
And there is a third signature?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; there is.
Mr. JENNER. And are you familiar with that signature?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I am.
Mr. JENNER. Whose is it, please?
Mr. OSWALD. Mr. John M. Thorne, Attorney.
Mr. JENNER. And he is the Mr. Thorne that we have identified a few moments ago?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. He was at that time the attorney for Mrs. Marina Oswald?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
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Mr. JENNER. Is there a fourth signature?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; there is not.
Mr. JENNER. Were those signatures affixed in your presence?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; they were.
Mr. DULLES. Mr. Jenner, I believe these are photostatic copies, are not, that are being identified?
Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir.
Mr. McKenzie, would you please make a statement with respect to that?
Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir. I was going to at this time, Mr. Jennet, state for the record that Exhibit 276 is a photostatic copy. And this photostatic copy was furnished to me by Mrs. Marina N. Oswald.
Mr. DULLES. Where is the original of that?
Mr. McKENZIE. Marina N. Oswald has the original.
Mr. DULLES. Has that been so compared, that we know this is a true copy?
Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Chairman. Pardon me.
I retract that statement.
Marina N. Oswald furnished to me a copy of this exhibit, but it was a signed copy, and it was an original copy.
Mr. JENNER. A duplicate original?
Mr. McKENZIE Yes. And I presume Mr. James Martin had the original, since it is addressed to him.
Mr. DULLES. And both the original and this duplicate bear these signatures, do they?
Mr. McKENZIE. I have never seen the original, sir, but I presume that they do. And I think Robert Oswald here can clarify that, because he was present at the time that the original was signed, and also the duplicate copies.
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. DULLES. And the duplicates were signed by the same parties as the original?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Representative FORD. May I ask--did you get a copy of the original at the time?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. I received a copy in the mail the second day after the signatures were signed. My copies were unsigned.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Oswald, were you present when all of the copies were contemporaneously signed, if they were contemporaneously signed?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I was.
Mr. JENNER. So you know of your own knowledge that what has been termed here the original, which may be in the possession of Mr. Martin, was signed, and was signed in your presence?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And the document which we are now discussing is a photostatic copy of a carbon copy of the original?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Executed contemporaneously with the original?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Would you have any further questions?
Mr. DULLES. No, I have no further questions.
Shall we admit this at this time, or do you want to wait until you have gone through them all, and then admit them all?
Mr. JENNER. It might be more convenient to identify them all, because they are of a series, if I have your permission.
Mr. DULLES. Certainly.
Mr. McKENZIE. The next document is Commission Exhibit 277, and purports to be a photocopy, or is a photocopy of a purported contract between Marina N. Oswald and Robert Oswald, bearing the date of December 9, 1963, and purportedly signed by Marina N. Oswald, Robert L. Oswald, John M. Thorne, attorney, and James H. Martin, approved as to form, and consisting of two pages.
Mr. JENNER. Now, if you would turn to the second page, please, sir--I notice a recital, "Executed by the undersigned parties this Ninth day of December A.D., 1963" and what purports to be your signature.
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Was this document, or that of which this is a Xerox copy, executed on that date?
Mr. OSWALD. I do not have a calendar before me. If the ninth day of December was a Monday, it was signed on that date.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Dulles is checking the calendar.
Mr. DULLES. I am afraid I don't have a 1963 calendar here.
Mr. JENNER. I am observing a calendar, and the ninth was a Monday. Mr. McKenzie, does the previous document also bear a date?
Mr. McKENZIE. It bears the date of December 6, Mr. Jenner.
Mr. JENNER. December 6, then, was a Saturday.
Mr. McKENZIE. If Monday was the ninth, Friday was the sixth.
Mr. JENNER. Was the previous exhibit, which is numbered 276, executed on December 6th?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it was not.
Mr. JENNER. On what date was it executed?
Mr. OSWALD. It was executed on Monday, December 9th.
Mr. JENNER. Despite its bearing a date of December 6th, it was actually executed on the ninth, when Commission Exhibit 277 was executed?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Now, directing your attention to the second page of Exhibit No. 277, that likewise bears a series of signatures. I ask you first whether those signatures were affixed in your presence?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; they were.
Mr. JENNER. Now, was the document now identified as 277, which is a Xerox copy---was the original of Exhibit 277 executed at the same time as the copy which you have produced for us executed?
Mr. OSWALD. May I have that again, please, sir? Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. That is, there were a series of papers, original and carbon copies, signed, at one and the same time?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And all of them were signed in your presence?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Now, there are four signatures on that page. Would you proceed to state your familiarity with those signatures and identify them?
Mr. OSWALD. All right.
Left to right, as the signatures appear--my signature, Robert L. Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. And to the right of that?
Mr. OSWALD. And to the right of that, the signature of Mrs. Marina N. Oswald, which I am familiar with.
The next signature is Mr. John M. Thorne, attorney, and I am familiar with his signature.
And the last signature that appears on this second page, Mr. James H. Martin. I am also familiar with his signature.
Mr. JENNER. And these persons are the same persons you have heretofore identified?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And is the document of which this 277 is a Xerox copy in the same condition now as it was the time those signatures were affixed to it?
Mr. OSWALD. May I have a moment, sir?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Is that likewise true of Exhibit No. 276? Would you take a look at it, please?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. And if I may say this about this--on page 3 of Exhibit 276, you will note that towards the upper right-hand part of this page there was--on this copy, there is a dark mark, following the word "royalties."
Representative Ford. What page is that?
Mr. OSWALD. Page 3, the sixth line, the word that was crossed off or out of the contract was the word "gifts."
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Mr. JENNER. And was that done in the course of the discussion and the execution of the document?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. So the document is in the same condition it was when executed?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Would you identify the next exhibit, Mr. McKenzie?
Mr. McKENZIE. The next exhibit is a photocopy of an investment agency agreement. It is Commission Exhibit No. 278. This exhibit bears the date of December 30, 1963, and is an agreement by and between John M. Thorne and flames H. Martin, co- trustees, of Dallas County, Tex., referred to in the exhibit as principal, and the First National Bank of Fort Worth, Tex. referred to in the exhibit as agent.
The exhibit consists of 3 pages, together with a schedule A and a letter addressed to the Trust Department of the First National Bank of Fort Worth, Tex.
This exhibit is a photocopy of a photocopy of a duplicate original.
I have seen the duplicate original upon which it had the names, handwritten names of John M. Thorne, co-trustee, and James H. Martin, co-trustee, as principal, on page 3, and Preston A. Utterbach, Vice President and Trust Officer of the First National Bank of Fort Worth, Tex.
However, these Xerox copies of a copy, being a photocopy, do not have the signatures on, because the second photocopy did not reproduce the signatures.
I have seen those.
Mr. JENNER. The Xerox machine was unable to pick up the signatures?
Mr. McKENZIE. No. The prior photocopy was unable to pick up the signatures.
Mr. DULLES. Because they had not been put on, or because they didn't pick them up?
Mr. McKENZIE. It would not pick them up, Mr. Dulles. The signatures were on the instrument itself, but the photo machine would not reproduce the signatures.
Mr. JENNER. You actually saw the signatures?
Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Where did you see that document, Mr. McKenzie?
Mr. McKENZIE. Marina N. Oswald gave it to me in my office.
Mr. JENNER. Would you state the thrust or substance of those agreements?
Mr. McKENZIE. The substance of it is that Mr. Thorne and Mr. Martin, as principals, constituted the First National Bank of Fort Worth as the agent to hold certain trust funds, consisting, as shown by the exhibit, attached to this exhibit, of $25,000.
Mr. JENNER. It was deposited with the First National Bank of Fort Worth under this trust and deposit agreement, agency agreement?
Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir.
I presume that to be true. I know Preston Utterbach. And if his signature was on it, I know that the funds were deposited there at the bank, or else he would not have executed it.
Mr. DULLES. Could I ask the source of these funds, if you know?
Mr. McKENZIE. I do not know them, sir. But Marina Oswald has told me that she felt that the funds came from contributions made to herself and her children, from various sources, of which I know nothing.
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, Mr. McKenzie.
Did you use the word "felt." She told you she felt?
Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, I did.
Mr. JENNER. That is the extent of your personal knowledge?
Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Oswald, do you have any personal knowledge, apart from or in addition to that of Mr. McKenzie, with respect to the source of the funds?
Mr. OSWALD. I would say this was monies received through the mails, and delivered in person to Mr. Thorne or perhaps Mr. Martin by various people who wanted to contribute to Marina's welfare and her children's welfare.
Mr. JENNER. Upon what is your statement based? Conversations?
Mr. OSWALD. Conversations, and also being----
Mr. JENNER. With whom, sir?
Mr. OSWALD. Marina N. Oswald.
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Mr. JENNER. She related this to you?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Anybody else? What about Mr. Thorne and Mr. Martin? Had you had conversations with them as to the source of these funds?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. I would say that would be correct, too.
Mr. JENNER. Did these conversations take place in the presence of Mrs. Marina Oswald? Your conversations with Mr. Thorne and Mr. Martin?
Mr. OSWALD. Not that I recall, sir. I am thinking perhaps, when I was aware at first that the $25,000 was to be placed in the trust fund at the First National Bank of Fort Worth, I learned this through a conversation on the telephone.
Mr. JENNER. With whom?
Mr. OSWALD. With Mr. Jim Martin.
Mr. JENNER. Are you familiar with Mr. Martin's voice?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you call him or did he call you?
Mr. OSWALD. I do not recall, sir.
Mr. JENNER. When did this take place?
Mr. OSWALD. Approximately a week prior to the actual deposit and setting up of the trust fund at the First National Bank in Fort Worth.
Representative FORD. Mr. Jenner, I suggest we get a copy of the deposit slip or some other validation of the actual amount.
Mr. JENNER. Thank you, sir. We will undertake to do that. These documents, as I have indicated, were produced for us during the recess. We don't have the full information.
Perhaps, Mr. McKenzie you have been quite helpful. You might be further helpful to us--you might have the deposit evidence of the deposit.
Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Jenner, I wish I did have it. However, I know that the First National Bank of Fort Worth would gladly duplicate that for you. And I contemplate that I will be in the process of obtaining a copy from either Mr. Thorne or Mr. Martin in the very near future, because I have asked both of those gentlemen, on behalf of Marina Oswald and her children, for a full and complete accounting as of February 18, 1964, and I will likewise say that she has informed me up until February 18, 1964, she has had no accounting from either of those gentlemen.
Mr. JENNER. Is there another exhibit?
Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir.
The next exhibit, Mr. Jenner, is Commission Exhibit No. 279, which is a Xerox copy of a power of attorney granted to the firm of Thorne and Leach. attorneys and counselors at law, bearing the date of December 5, 1963, in which it has three I presume these are omissions from the exhibit---commencing on line 4, following the words "trust funds", there is an omission, and then the word "bequests", and then there is another omission, and on line 5, at the beginning of that line, there is an omission.
Mr. DULLES. What is the nature of the omissions?
Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Dulles, I have been told that the word "gifts" was omitted. The word "gift" was originally in it. But I have been told the word "gift" was omitted, or struck out.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Dulles, I had intended to question the witness about that.
Mr. McKENZIE. This contract provides that Marina N. Oswald, "bargain, transfer, sell and assign an undivided 10 percent of all such sums when collected or paid to my account," referring to the fund in the preceding paragraph. The agreement is signed by Marina N. Oswald, witnessed by James H. Martin, and accepted by John M. Thorne.
I am familiar with Marina N. Oswald's signature, and this is a copy of her signature, or is her signature. I am not familiar with Mr. Martin's signature or Mr. Thorne's signature.
Mr. JENNER. Directing your attention to that document, Mr. Oswald, are you familiar with any of the signatures it bears?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir: I am.
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Mr. JENNER. Would you identify each signature and indicate those with which you are familiar?
Mr. OSWALD. As they appear in order, the first signature is Mrs. Marina N. Oswald. I am familiar with this signature. The second signature is Mr. James H. Martin. I am familiar with his signature.
Mr. JENNER. It is his signature?
Mr. OSWALD. I would say yes, it is.
Mr. DULLES. Is that under "Accepted"--is that first word there "John"?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. And the last signature as appears on this Exhibit 279 is the signature of John M. Thorne.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know the day upon which that document was executed? It bears a date of December 5, which is a Thursday.
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not.
Pardon me--the 5th day of December is the date purported--that this document was executed at I am not familiar that it was executed on that date.
Mr. JENNER. Are you familiar with the date when it was in fact executed?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I am not. I might further state I was not present when this document was signed, and I was not aware of this document until Thursday, February 13th.
Mr. JENNER. 19----
Mr. OSWALD. 1964.
Mr. JENNER. May I inquire of you, Mr. McKenzie, whether you have seen the original of the document of which this purports to be a Xerox copy?
Mr. McKENZIE. I have not, sir. But I have seen a duplicate copy, an original copy.
Mr. JENNER. A duplicate executed copy?
Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. That was furnished to you by whom?
Mr. McKENZIE. By Marina N. Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. And this is a photostatic copy of what, with respect to an original, carbon copy or otherwise?
Mr. MCKENZIE. It is a photocopy of a carbon copy.
Mr. JENNER. And have you personally seen the carbon copy of which this is a photo?
Mr. McKENZIE. Yes. sir: I have.
Mr. JENNER. And is the document now identified as Commission Exhibit No. 279 in the same condition now as it was when you first saw it?
Mr. McKENZIE. Exactly.
Mr. JENNER. And to the best of your recollection, is it a duplicate of the original?
Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir.
The next exhibit is Commission Exhibit No. 280 entitled "The Oswald Trust," and bearing a heading, "The State of Texas, County of Dallas, Know all men by these presents," and it is a trust agreement dated December 30, 1963, by and between Marina Nikolaevna Oswald "a widow, hereinafter called grantor, and John M. Thorne and James H. Martin of Dallas County, Texas, co- trustees, hereinafter called the trustee" in which it describes certain funds described on Schedule A attached to this exhibit, which consists of some six pages, plus the Schedule A, Schedule A describing the trust funds as cash, $25,000. And I might add, in my opinion, Mr. Jennet, for whatever it may be worth, that this trust grants to John Thorne and James Martin purportedly grants unto those two men as co-trustees absolute discretion as to the distribution of the trust funds.
In fact, on page 2 it says, "as the trustee shall in either case in its uncontrolled discretion deem advisable."
Mr. DULLES. Who is the beneficiary of this trust?
Mr. McKENZIE. Marina Oswald and her children, in the discretion of John Thorne and James Martin.
Representative FORD. Is that $25,000 the same $25,000 referred to in a previous exhibit?
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Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Ford, I presume so. But that is only a presumption on my part. I do not know.
I might further add, for the benefit of counsel and the Commission, that Marina Oswald has informed me, and I think Robert Oswald can testify as to this, which I leave to your discretion, that at no time have these, up until February 14 have these----
Mr. JENNER. 1964?
Mr. McKENZIE. 1964 have these exhibits, numbered consecutively from 276 through 280, been read to her in Russian. And at the time of execution, they were not interpreted, nor did they show of the contents--what the contents were, except as explained to her in English.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. McKenzie, the document is identified as Commission Exhibit No. 280, directing your attention to page 5, has blanks for signatures, and names of grantor and co-trustees under those lines.
Could I ask you whether you have seen the original of this document?
Mr. McKENZIE. I have not, sir. I have seen a copy.
Mr. JENNER. An executed copy?
Mr. McKENZIE. To the best of my recollection, it was an executed copy, yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And from what source did you obtain or was the document exhibited to you?
Mr. McKENZIE. The document was given to me by Marina Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. And you observed that it was executed?
Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. By the persons whose names appear on page 5 of the Exhibit 280?
Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir.
I have made these exhibits available to the Commission for whatever purpose they may serve the Commission, and for no other purpose.
Mr. DULLES. Yes. I think we might want to reserve on that until the whole Commission can get together. We want to examine everything within the mandate we have been given by the President. We don't want to go afield, quite naturally. And we cannot tell at this stage what bearing these particular papers might have. So I think I would like to reserve judgment on these.
Mr. McKENZIE. Well, Mr. Dulles, I made that statement in view of that fact. I felt that that would be true.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. McKenzie, for the purpose of our record, would you be offended if we had you sworn, so you could- then state that the statements you have made to the Commission are true and correct?
Mr. McKENZIE. I would not be offended in any way.
Mr. DULLES. Do you, Mr. McKenzie, swear that what you have stated, is the full truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. McKENZIE. I do, Mr. Dulles.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, I offer in evidence as Commission Exhibits 276 through 280, inclusive, the documents that have been so identified.
Mr. DULLES. They may be accepted.
(The documents referred to were-marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 276 through 280, inclusive, for identification, and received in evidence.)
Mr. DULLES. I wish to state, in accepting these documents, the Commission does not want to pass on or assume any responsibility with respect to the financial or other arrangements described in these documents.
Mr. JENNER. I sought to identify them, Mr. Chairman, and gentlemen, and to tender them in evidence because of events of the past few days, and to confirm Mr. McKenzie's authority to speak on behalf of Mr. Oswald.
Mr. DULLES. Very well.
Mr. JENNER. At the recess, Mr. Oswald, we were dealing with excuse me. We were dealing with the period of time that you and your mother and your two brothers lived in Benbrook, Tex. This brought us through the summer of 1948, I believe. Am I correct?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Liebeler has determined that the divorce of Mr. Ekdahl and
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your mother took place in 1948. We cannot give you the month and the day in 1948, but it was during the year 1948.
We had reached the point in which you related to us that, I believe, following the divorce of Mr. Ekdahl and your mother, she purchased a small home.
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And refresh my recollection, please--was that in Benbrook, Tex.?
Mr. OSWALD. That was in Benbrook, Tex.
Mr. JENNER. Have we reached a point now at which your brother, Lee, had entered elementary school?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; we have.
Mr. JENNER And you boys have now terminated your attendance at the military academy?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And would you please relate what elementary school you and your brother, John, attended, and Lee, if he attended the same school?
Mr. OSWALD. Prior to the school year of 1948-49, we moved to Ewing Street, 7408 Ewing Street, within the limits of the city of Fort Worth.
Mr. JENNER. Was the home that had been purchased in Benbrook, Tex., sold?
Mr. OSWALD. I would say yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Well, you state that you would say. Is that your best information?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
I am not aware of any transactions in regards to the selling of that home or anything. Since we did move, and she did purchase this home on 7408 Ewing Street, in Fort Worth, I would assume that she did, sell the house at Benbrook, because she didn't rent it, and we no longer went out there. I feel sure she did sell it.
Mr. JENNER. Did I understand you to say that your mother purchased a home at 7408 Ewing?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Would you, in very short compass, tell us the physical characteristics of that home?
Mr. OSWALD. It was a two bedroom, asbestos siding, with an attached garage, red roof, small porch on the front, and an average sized lot.
Mr. JENNER. These homes you have been describing all have, as I recall it--have either attached garage or separate garages.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir--with the exception of the home there in Benbrook that my mother purchased after the divorce from Mr. Ekdahl--it did not have a garage, and I did not recall a garage at the native stone house in Benbrook.
Mr. JENNER. The purpose of my inquiry was, did the family have an automobile?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Was that true when you lived in Louisiana?
Mr. OSWALD. To my best recollection on that--my father did have, at the time of his death, either a 1937 or 1938 Chevrolet. I believe my mother sold it after his death. I believe she did not own an automobile in New Orleans, when we were at the Bethlehem Orphan Home.
Mr. JENNER. Were you boys interested in automobiles, as most young teenagers are?
Mr. OSWALD. I think so, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Tinker around with them, drive them?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Both you and your brother John?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Later on, in later years, did your brother Lee --was he likewise interested in automobiles, did he tinker with them?
Mr. OSWALD. Not to my knowledge, sir, did he tinker with them. Even though I can recall a couple of occasions with automobiles that I owned that he would assist me in any repairs I might be making on the automobile at that time.
Mr. JENNER. Well, I have in mind his interest now. Was he a good driver?
Mr. OSWALD. To my knowledge, he did not drive.
Mr. JENNER. He did not drive at all?
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Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he did not.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see him drive an automobile?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. On two or three occasions in later years, I offered to teach him to drive.
Mr. JENNER. You recall this specifically now, do you? Would you relate to the Commission this course of events in his life a young man who never did learn, at least to your knowledge, to drive an automobile?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
The first occasion that I recall that I offered to Lee to teach him how to drive at that time, I owned a '56 Chevrolet. I had married, and I was residing at 7313 Davenport, Fort Worth, Tex., a home which I had purchased. And Lee was home on leave.
Mr. JENNER. Give us the time, please, as closely as you can.
Mr. OSWALD. This would be some time in 1958.
Mr. JENNER. He was then in the Marine Corps?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And he was home on leave?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. State the circumstances, will you please?
Mr. OSWALD. With relation to my offer to teach him how to drive?
Mr. JENNER. Yes. How did that come about?
Mr. OSWALD. Well, he was spending a day, or part of a day over at our house. We were going to the grocery store or something--Lee and I. As I backed out of the driveway, I recall saying something to him, or he brought it up, or something--about wanting to learn how to drive.
And I said, "Well, we can start right now."
It was an automatic transmission.
"It is the easiest thing in the world to do. There is nothing to worry about. And I would be right here with you."
Well, he didn't think that was the time to try to start. He did want to learn how to drive, though. And he did not take the wheel.
Mr. JENNER. He did not?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.
At no time was I present when he took the wheel of a car and drove it.
Mr. JENNER. And on any occasion in your lifetime, did you ever see him, whether you were in the vehicle whether or not you were in the vehicle behind the wheel and actually operating in motion an automobile?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have never known him to operate an automobile, to drive it.
Mr. JENNER. What about Mrs. Marina Oswald in that respect?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; to my knowledge she does not drive and she does not know how to drive, and I have never seen her operate an automobile.
Mr. JENNER. I notice when you are smoking that you hold the cigarette in your left hand. Are you left handed?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. I am left handed when I write and eat.
Mr. JENNER And you are right handed otherwise?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Throwing a baseball?
Mr. OSWALD. Throwing a baseball.
At one time I could handle it with both hands especially a football better than a baseball. But I have returned to my right hand on that. I was more accurate with my right hand than with my left hand, in throwing things. I kick footballs right footed and so forth.
Mr. JENNER. What about your father? Was he right handed or left handed?
Mr. OSWALD. This I do not know, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Your mother?
Mr. OSWALD. My mother is left handed.
Mr. JENNER. And your brother Lee?
Mr. OSWALD. He was right handed.
Representative FORD. Was there ever a time that he appeared to be left handed, as far as you recollect?
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Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. I have never known him to handle anything--throw a baseball, football, et cetera, fire a rifle, or do anything, left handed.
Mr. JENNER. In order to be certain of the details in this respect, when he wrote, did he write with his right or his left hand?
Mr. OSWALD. Right handed.
Mr. JENNER. Right handed?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And you in fact have seen him write with his right hand?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I have.
Mr. JENNER. During your youth?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever--was there ever an occasion when you saw him write or attempt to write with his left hand?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I have never seen him at any time, on any occasion, ever attempt to write or do anything left handed.
Mr. JENNER. You really covered my next question, but I would like to ask it anyhow.
There are men in athletics who are either right handed or left handed, but who throw or bat or do something from the other side.
Did he ever throw left handed or in any athletic endeavor employ his left hand predominantly as against his right hand?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; not to my knowledge, he never did.
Mr. JENNER. From your many years of experience with him, being associated with him, as his brother, was he a predominantly right-handed person?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; he most certainly was.
Representative FORD. And you personally saw him throw, kick, or do anything athletic over the years, and saw him use his right hand exclusively?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. I would say without qualification--I might be repeating myself here at no time did I ever know him to do anything left handed, to the extent that it would be predominant. Of course his hands worked together, and so forth. But I have never known him to do anything left handed.
Mr. JENNER. From your long acquaintance with him, and your intimate knowledge of his physical characteristics in that respect, do you have an opinion as to whether he was instinctively right-handed or instinctively a left-handed person?
Mr. OSWALD. I would say he was instinctively a right-handed person.
Mr. JENNER. In all the years you were with him, you had opportunity to see him react instantaneously without having time to think about using his right hand or left hand?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER: Did you observe him on many occasions?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes. I have never known him to use his left hand in any manner when an occasion would require that he use either hand--instinctively went to his right hand.
Mr. JENNER. Was he a coordinated person in the use of his right hand? Some are not coordinated athletically.
Mr. OSWALD. My opinion of this, sir, would be that he was coordinated to the extent that looking at myself and many, I would compare us as two peas in a pod. Quite fast, well coordinated.
Mr. JENNER. He was dextrous?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And well coordinated?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And you had an opportunity over the years to see him engage in athletics, did you?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. During your youth, as a young man, in any event, did you and your brother John and Lee have an interest in guns, rifles, pistols, cap guns, firearms generally?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; we certainly did. I would say this.
Mr. JENNER. Now, this includes all three of you?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I understand that.
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Of course John and I, when we attended military school, we had more of an opportunity to become acquainted with firearms. We certainly played with cap pistols, rubber guns, et cetera, when we were young. Lee did the same thing.
However, I would say this. Mother did not like firearms.
Mr. DULLES. We will recess now until 2 o'clock this afternoon.
(Whereupon, at 12:30 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)
Afternoon Session
TESTIMONY OF ROBERT EDWARD LEE OSWALD RESUMED
The President's Commission reconvened at 2 p.m.
Mr. DULLES. The Commission will come to order.
Mr. DULLES. Mr. Jenner, will you please continue?
Mr. JENNER. Thank you, sir.
Mr. Reporter, would you read the last question and answer we have so we can orient ourselves.
To refresh your recollection, Mr. Oswald, I had commenced to examine you with respect to the interests of yourself, your brother John, and your brother Lee in firearms, even at the children's stage. And you had indicated developments in that area as you became older.
I think you reached the point where, as an example, you said of course your brother John and yourself had attended military school.
Mr. OSWALD. And, also, I believe, sir, the question referred to all three of us.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. OSWALD. To what extent we were familiar with firearms.
To elaborate, at military school John was by far the better shot of the two of us. He was on the school rifle team. And, at this time, I was 10 years old--when I first attended there. My hunting instinct came alive.
Mr. JENNER. Hunting?
Mr. OSWALD. Hunting instinct came alive, and at the first opportunity I started hunting squirrels and so forth there in Mississippi. I did this on practically every occasion I had. John was on the rifle team. And up to that time, a number of years after that, we never had a firearm in the house. My mother didn't like them. She was scared of them. And after we moved to 7408 Ewing Street, none of us owned a rifle, even a .22, or a shotgun, or any type of firearm. And when I wanted to go hunting from there, I had various friends that had rifles that I would borrow, and I would go to the west side of Fort Worth, and Benbrook, and do my squirrel hunting.
I don't recall at anytime during that period that Lee went with me. I don't know that John did--because approximately this time he had reached the age of 17, at which time he joined the U.S. Coast Guard.
Mr. JENNER. This is when you moved over to Ewing Street in Fort Worth?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Up to that time, had you and Lee at any time gone hunting?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; 1 do not recall any time that we went hunting at that time.
Mr. JENNER. This was 1948-49. So he was 9 to 10 years old?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Had, to your knowledge, Lee gone hunting or used firearms or played or been interested in firearms with you or with your brother?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. To my knowledge I don't remember any time he went hunting with myself or my older brother John. As I stated, there was no firearms in the house.
He liked cap pistols, like any other kid. And to the extent that we didn't even own a BB gun.
Mr. JENNER Had you ever had BB guns around your home?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.
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Mr. JENNER. Had you boys ever owned one?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. By this time, I assume you had shot one.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Owned by one of your pals or somebody around the neighborhood?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And Lee had what you would describe as a normal interest in firearms?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. That every boy has?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. But not beyond that?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Were there any pistol or rifle ranges around that you boys attended?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; there was not.
Mr. JENNER. Now, your brother John at this point entered the Coast Guard?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. You were attending--you were then 15. You were now attending high school, I assume.
Mr. OSWALD. Junior high school.
Mr. JENNER. In Fort Worth?
Mr. OSWALD. Fort Worth, W. C. Stripling Junior High School.
Mr. DULLES. What was the name of that?
Mr. OSWALD. W. C. Stripling Junior High School.
Mr. JENNER. Did your brother John attend high school?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER What high school did he attend?
Mr. OSWALD. We went for awhile---to get this thing in sequence, before he went into the Coast Guard he attended Arlington Heights High School in Fort Worth, I believe, for one-half year, and then he transferred to Paschal High School in Fort Worth.
Mr. JENNER Had you attended either of those high schools?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; Arlington Heights High School.
Mr. JENNER. I think I might go back a little bit. I will return to the firearms.
But to maintain the sequence, when you and your brother John came to Benbrook, Tex., after you completed your schooling at the military school, I assume you attended school in Benbrook, Tex.
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; we did not, because we were just there during the summer months. And we moved prior to the school year of 19----
Mr. JENNER. '48?
Mr. OSWALD. '48---we moved to the address on Ewing Street.
Mr. JENNER. All right. And each of you then enrolled in Arlington?
Mr. OSWALD. I was in the ninth grade, which was junior high school in Texas. I enrolled in W. C. Stripling.
Mr. JENNER. First?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. And John Edward enrolled in Arlington Heights High School.
Mr. JENNER. W.C. Stripling High School was a junior high school?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And Arlington Heights High School was senior high school?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; the last 3 years.
Mr. JENNER. And, at this time, your brother Lee was enrolled in-----
Mr. OSWALD. West Ridglea Elementary School.
Mr. JENNER. So at this point each of you was attending a different school?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And Lee was 9 years old.
You continued at Arlington Heights Junior High School for how long?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir--W. C. Stripling Junior High School. For 1 year, the ninth grade.
If I may, sir, perhaps correct something--I don't know for sure which way it
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was. When I said Lee attended West Ridglea Elementary School, I think perhaps the first year he attended Arlington Heights Elementary School, because I don't believe the West Ridglea Elementary School was completed at that time.
Mr. JENNER. We might take you in sequence so that at least I don't get confused.
You spent a year at W. C. Stripling High School?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. So we now have we are now into '49-'50, is that correct?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And after a year at W. C. Stripling High School, you enrolled where?
Mr. OSWALD. At Arlington Heights High School.
Mr. JENNER. And that would be in the fall of 1949?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And you attended Arlington Heights High School how long?
Mr. OSWALD. I attended my sophomore year. In my sophomore year I started----
Mr. JENNER. Would that be 1951, the end of your sophomore year?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; 1950 would be the end of the school year. That summer there I started a job with an A&P Supermarket there in Fort Worth.
I might say along this period mother seemed to be having difficulty keeping a job or making enough money and so forth to raise us. I stayed out of school that next year and worked for A&P.
Mr. JENNER. Out of school 1950-51?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did your brother remain in school--John?
Mr. OSWALD. John at this time was in the Coast Guard.
Mr. JENNER. Already in the Coast Guard?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. All right. And you worked at the A. & P. during this period?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did you contribute your earnings to your mother?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. They were probably not a great amount at this age. Do you recall what they were, per week?
Mr. OSWALD. Perhaps my starting salary was somewhere around $48 a week, or something like that. I believe by the end of the year I had become a checker, and perhaps it was $65 or $70 a week.
Mr. JENNER. What proportion of that did you contribute to the sustaining of the family?
Mr. OSWALD. I would say practically all of it, but what I needed for expenses, a little spending money.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know whether your brother John made an allotment of any kind to your mother or sent her any money?
Mr. OSWALD. To my knowledge, he did not.
Mr. JENNER. Was there any illness or disability of any kind that contributed to your mother's difficulty in obtaining positions during this period?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; she was not disabled. I don't recall any particular, length of illness that she had at this time that would not allow her to work.
Mr. JENNER. What was the reason, if you recall, she was having difficulty in obtaining work, or was there any particular reason?
Mr. OSWALD. None that I recall, sir. No particular reason I can recall.
Mr. JENNER. Your brother Lee was living at home during this time?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Was he working after school, or making any effort to earn some money?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he was not. He might have on occasion mowed somebody's lawn or something like that, where he would have a little spending money, or something. But nothing frequently, consistently.
Mr. JENNER. I see.
Proceeding with you, at the end of the school year '50-'51--I assume you continued working there the summer of '51?
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Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And did you reenter school that fall?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did
Mr. JENNER. Where?
Mr. OSWALD. Arlington Heights High School.
Representative Ford. May I ask a question?
During this 1-year period that you worked for the A&P, Mr. Oswald, were you the principal source of income for your mother, Lee, and yourself?
Mr. OSWALD. Mother was working. Whether or not I was making more than she was at that time, I do not know
Representative FORD. She was working spasmodically or regularly during this period?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe almost regularly, very little off. I cannot recall right now what she was doing. I think perhaps during this period she was selling insurance.
Representative FORD. While she was in this occupation, who took care of Lee?
Mr. OSWALD. Well, no one did. Lee was, of course, at school. When he returned home from school in the afternoon, he managed for himself, until I or my mother returned home from work.
Representative Ford. He was 9 or 10?
Mr. McKENZIE. Eleven years old.
Representative FORD. Thank you.
Mr. JENNER. I think Representative Ford's question may have been induced by the fact you said that at about this time of which we are speaking your mother was having trouble retaining her position or obtaining positions. I assumed from that, perhaps incorrectly, that there were gaps, there were times when she was not employed, and, therefore, did need you to remain out of school
to help. Is that a fair statement?
Mr. OSWALD. I would say that is a fair statement and generally so. A little more comes to mind there.
I believe, perhaps, that she might have been selling insurance. I think she was acting at that time as what you would call a hostess or a welcoming party for the city of Fort Worth. In other words, she went out and met new people coming into Fort Worth- -something along that line. And apparently it wasn't very much money, very little. And I think during this period also she was trying to locate other types of work that would perhaps earn her more. I believe that would be more accurate to what I really had in mind, there.
Mr. JENNER. But during all of the period, from the divorce of your mother and Mr. Ekdahl, proceeding from that time forward, she again returned to what she had been doing prior to the marriage that is, working to sustain the family?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And if I may use the expression you did, Lee was left to shift for himself during the daytime, get to school, get back to school, and be around until either you boys returned to the home or your mother returned to the home?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Because he didn't have anybody particularly assigned or who undertook to care for him?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.
I might say you mentioned "you boys" Of course at this time John was in the Coast Guard, so it was either myself or my mother.
Mr. JENNER. And particularly during the year you were employed at the A&P, and your mother was also employed, then certainly during that period there was no one even available to take care of him, is that correct?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. What were your hours?
Mr. OSWALD. My hours varied somewhat. We had different types of shifts for different days. Normally perhaps from 7 to 4 or 5 o'clock, and on the weekends--stock day was Wednesday, when all shipments came in, to restock the store. That was Wednesday and Saturday. Usually they were long days. I worked from 7 o'clock to 8 o'clock or 9 o'clock at night. And on Saturdays practically always after the store was closed, we did the cleanup, and rewaxing
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the floors and sometimes it was anywhere from 10 to 10:30 at night, and perhaps even 11 o'clock before I was home.
Mr. DULLES. Did Lee's school at that time keep him until about 4 o'clock, do you know?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe, sir, that would be he was, of course, at that time, attending West Ridglea Elementary School. I believe it would be about 3 o'clock, because I believe high school at that time we were getting out at 3:40. And I believe the elementary school was either 40 minutes or an hour earlier.
Mr. JENNER. You attended Arlington Heights High School for the school year '51-'52?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And what about the year '52-'53?
Mr. OSWALD. July 1952 I joined the Marine Corps.
Mr. JENNER. And in July 1952, when you joined the Marine Corps, what do you recall was your status as far as your schooling was concerned?
Mr. OSWALD. I completed my junior year in high school.
Mr. DULLES. Did you enlist for 3 years?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And your brother was still in the Coast Guard?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; he was still in the Coast Guard at that time.
Mr. JENNER. And, at that time, I take it your brother Lee was attending Arlington Heights High School? That would be 1952?
Mr. OSWALD. Just a minute, please.
In 1952 Lee was 13 years old. He would be attending W. C. Stripling Junior High School then.
Mr. JENNER. I see. For the school year 1951-52?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. Junior high school there was from the seventh to the ninth grades. And as soon as he was through with his sixth year, he started attending W. C. Stripling Junior High School.
Mr. JENNER. As soon as he finished the sixth year at Ridglea Elementary School, he entered W. C. Stripling High School, as a seventh grader?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir--junior high school.
Mr. JENNER. Now, the condition that you described as to Lee shifting for himself during the daytime, when your mother was away working and you were away working, and your brother John was in the Coast Guard, continued, I take it, when he began attendance and while he was attending W. C. Stripling Junior High School?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Was there a discussion, a family discussion when you enlisted in the Marines, or prior to your enlisting in the Marines, as to your doing so, and quitting high school?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; there was not.
Mr. JENNER. That was of your own volition?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did you talk to your mother in advance about it?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Not at all?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER Had anything preceded in the way of family discussion of your brother John's entry into the Coast Guard?
Mr. OSWALD. I feel like it was, sir. He had previously----
Mr. JENNER. This is your best recollection?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
He had previously, before going into the Coast Guard, joined the Marine Corps Reserve, the base of which was, at that time, at Grand Prairie, Tex. I believe it was 105 Howitzer, something like that. And he was perhaps in that 4 or 5 months before he joined the Coast Guard. When it came up about the Coast Guard, I believe we all talked about it, or at least he talked to Lee about it in front of me.
Mr. JENNER. You used an expression, "I believe we talked about it." Is it your recollection that you did?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. Nothing that I remember particular about that.
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Mr. JENNER. What was the character of the discussion, Mr. Oswald? You had a family in which your mother was having some difficulty supporting you boys? You had a brother who needed to be supported. Was there any discussion--or was there a discussion of what would happen in the event that first John and then you joined the service?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe reflecting on what mother said to me when I made my decision to join the Marine Corps was that perhaps it was the best thing, where I would not be a burden to her to that extent, and also perhaps be able to help her when she needed help. And I think this would be in line with what was said when John left for the Coast Guard, that this would be, of course, one less for her to take care of at the house, to feed and to clothe, and so forth. And it would relieve her of her responsibility along that line it would help her, because of the limited amount of funds that she had coming in.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever make an allotment of any portion of your service pay to your mother?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. JENNER. To your knowledge, did John?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he did not.
Mr. JENNER. You were single at this time?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Your brother John was?
Mr. OSWALD. 1952?
Mr. JENNER. When he entered the Coast Guard.
Mr. OSWALD. When he entered the Coast Guard he was single.
Mr. JENNER. Did he marry while he was in the service?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; he did.
Mr. JENNER. Now, was he in the Coast Guard when he married?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; he was.
Mr. JENNER. I take it he did leave the Coast Guard.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; he has.
Mr. JENNER. And did he enter into military service when he left the Coast Guard?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; he did. He transferred from the Coast Guard into the U.S. Air Force.
Mr. JENNER. And when was that?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe this to be around 1955. I believe it would be accurate to say in 1954. I do recall a letter from John to the extent that he lost a stripe when he transferred from one service to the other, and I believe this letter came to me when I was in Korea, which was 1954 and early '55. I believe it was 1954.
Mr. JENNER. When you were in Korea, did you say?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. When did you say, if you did, that your brother John married? Do you recall the year?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe this would be late 1950 or '51.
Mr. JENNER. That was during the period you were working at the A&P?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And where was he stationed at that time?
Mr. OSWALD. New York City.
Mr. JENNER. Staten Island, I guess.
I would like to ask some questions about that later on, but I prefer now to return to this.
You enlisted in the Marines, then, in the summer of 1952.
Mr. OSWALD. July 11, 1952.
Mr. JENNER. Would you give us in very short compass your military career?
Mr. OSWALD. I went to boot camp at San Diego, Calif., and from San Diego I went to combat training at Camp Pendleton, Calif. When 1 left Camp Pendleton, I was transferred from the infantry into the Marine Air Wing.
I went to Jacksonville, Fla. to a preparatory school down there in Marine aviation--more or less to determine your ability and what your strong points
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were, and what field you would be best qualified in the aviation division.
From Jacksonville, Fla., I went into Millington, Tenn., right outside of Memphis, Tenn., a Navy school, where for approximately 6 months I attended metalsmith school.
From Memphis, Tenn., or Millington, Tenn., I went to Miami, Fla. for approximately 9 months. I was not in school any longer. I was on the job. And from Miami, I was sent overseas to Korea.
Mr. JENNER. And how long were you overseas?
Mr. OSWALD. Approximately 18 months, sir.
Mr. JENNER. From when to when?
Mr. OSWALD. I reported to Santa Ana, Calif. in January or February of 1954.
Mr. JENNER. And you were discharged from the Marines----
Mr. OSWALD. July of 1955.
Mr. JENNER. So you had a full 3 years in the Marines.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. During that 3-year period, what contact did you have with the members of your family, and with particular reference, if you can give that first, with your brother Lee his writing you, you writing him?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; we were corresponding infrequently, I would say--not very many letters between I and Lee direct when I was in the service, especially the first part of my tour in the service.
In 1952, after traveling from Camp Pendleton, Calif., to Jacksonville, Fla. I did have a 10-day leave. They were in New York City at that time.
Mr. JENNER. This was then some time in 1953, I take it?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir--1952.
Mr. JENNER. 1952?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. This was----
Mr. JENNER. You mean your mother and Lee that is the period of time they were in New York City?
Mr. OSWALD. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. Living there.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did you see them?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; not at that time. I spent my leave in Fort Worth, because I did not feel I had enough time to travel to New York and down to Jacksonville, Fla. After completing metalsmith school at Millington, Tenn., I took a 10-day leave.
Mr. JENNER. Fix the time.
Mr. OSWALD. This was July or August of 1953. I had my orders to go to Miami, Fla. I took a 10-day leave and left Millington, Tenn., by car and came to New York City and spent 10 days in New York with Lee, mother, John, and his family.
Mr. JENNER. Where did you stay?
Mr. OSWALD. At mother's apartment, with Lee, in the Bronx some place I do not recall the address.
Mr. JENNER. What, if anything, did you learn at that time regarding Lee's attendance or nonattendance in school?
Mr. OSWALD. Nothing on that, sir. This was in the summer time. Lee, of course, was home and not supposed to be in school. And I do not think anything was brought up that I recall about whether or not Lee had been attending school regularly or not.
Mr. McKENZIE. Can we go off the record?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. DULLES. Back on the record.
Mr. JENNER. Referring to the 10-day leave in New York City, did you spend time with your brother Lee?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Your mother was working during that period of time, was she not?
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Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. In spending time with him, did you take him around, or accompany him, visiting various places in New York City?
Mr. OSWALD. He took me around, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have occasion during that period to take any photographs, snapshots, of Lee?
Mr. OSWALD. I certainly can identify the one appearing in Life--yes, sir; I did.
Mr. JENNER. Just hold your answers right in this area exactly to my questions.
Mr. OSWALD. I'm sorry.
Mr. JENNER. Were these taken with your camera, or was it a camera that your mother or brother owned or had?
Mr. OSWALD. This was my camera.
Mr. DULLES. What do these questions refer to? Do they refer to the pictures in Life?
Mr. JENNER. Well, I really did not want to refer to that at the moment.
Do you remember any of the places at which you took snapshots of Lee during this 10-day leave?
Mr. OSWALD. The Bronx Zoo I believe was about the only time I can recall taking any pictures of him.
Mr. JENNER. I am at liberty to advise you, Mr. Oswald, that when your mother testified before the Commission she did produce a number of photographs, snapshots, and otherwise, among which was a snapshot of your brother, Lee, taken at the New York Zoo--that she testified was taken at the New York Zoo.
Is that the incident in which you took the photograph of your brother Lee, as far as you know?
Mr. OSWALD. You say the New York Zoo, sir. As far as I know there is just one zoo up there referred to as the Bronx Zoo. I do recall, and I still have the picture that I took of Lee at the Bronx Zoo. I certainly feel that perhaps either I sent copies of it to mother, or to Lee after I had the film developed.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, may I go off the record a moment?
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. DULLES. Back on the record.
Mr. JENNER. For the purpose of the record, I have before me the February 21, 1964, issue of Life magazine, on pp. 68--A, 68--B, and 70 of which there appear a number of photographs. I think it would be well if we gave this spread page an exhibit number. And since it really consists of two separate pages--the next exhibit numbers are what?
Mr. LIEBELER. 281 and 282.
Mr. JENNER. We will mark 68-B as 281 and page 69 as 282.
(The material referred to was marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 281 and 282, respectively, for identification.)
Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Jenner--the only thing you are offering to the Commission at this time as I understand it are the pictures that appeal on those two pages and not the text.
Mr. JENNER. That's correct, sir.
Directing your attention to page 69, identified as Commission Exhibit 282, there is a picture of a young boy and the background looks like it might be taken in a zoo. You mentioned that you had taken a snapshot of your brother on this 10-day leave.
Could you examine that and see if you can identify that as being the snapshot you took?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I do so identify that picture. That was taken at the Bronx Zoo--a picture of Lee Harvey Oswald, takes during my 10-day leave in New York City in 1953, approximately July or August of 1953.
Mr. JENNER. Was school in session at that time?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, school was not in session at that time. This was during the summer months.
Mr. JENNER. So there was no obligation on the part of your brother to have been in school at this particular time?
Mr. OSWALD. That's correct, sir.
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Mr. JENNER. Now, appearing immediately above that snapshot is a snapshot or a photograph, a picture of two boys. Do you recognize either or both of those children?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do. I recognize the young boy standing, and I recognize him to be Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. And who is the boy appearing lower in that photograph?
Mr. OSWALD. I do not recognize him, sir.
Mr. JENNER. This is in the upper right hand corner of Commission Exhibit 282. Appearing immediately to the left--but before I proceed to that, are you able to identify that sufficiently to indicate to us the age of your brother at the time that picture was taken?
Mr. OSWALD. I would say he was approximately 11 or 12 years old at that time.
Mr. JENNER. And at this time he was residing where?
Mr. OSWALD. If he was 11 years old at the time the photograph was taken, he was residing in Fort Worth, Tex. If he was 12 years old, he would be residing in New York City.
Mr. JENNER. To the left appears another photograph of a young man in a striped shirt, a striped T-shirt. Do you observe that?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do.
Mr. JENNER. It is apparently a blowup from a group picture. Who is that?
Mr. OSWALD. I recognize him to be my brother, Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. And do you recognize the clothing, have you seen him in that clothing before?
Mr. OSWALD. Not that I recall. The tennis shoes look familiar.
Mr. JENNER. And are you able to make out the age of your brother at the time this picture was taken?
Mr. OSWALD. I would say approximately 10 or 11 years old.
Mr. JENNER. So if it were at age 10, he would have been residing where?
Mr. OSWALD. In Fort Worth, Tex.
Mr. JENNER. And you have already given the age.
To the left of that picture is another photograph or apparently a snapshot. I notice that there are part of some persons behind the central figure. Do you recognize the figure in that photograph?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes; I do.
Mr. JENNER. Who is it?
Mr. OSWALD. I recognize it to be Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. At what age?
Mr. OSWALD. Seven or eight years old.
Mr. JENNER. And assuming age 7, where was he residing at that time?
Mr. OSWALD. This would be the year when he was 7 would be 1946 or 1947. He would be residing in Fort Worth, Tex.
Mr. JENNER. And if he were 8, he still would be residing in Fort Worth, Tex.
Mr. OSWALD. That's correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. To the left of that picture is a picture of--I don't know whether that is one snapshot or two.
Mr. OSWALD. It is one, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Showing three persons, three children. Are you able to identify all three?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I am.
Mr. JENNER. Would you please identify and give the ages?
Mr. OSWALD. Left to right, I identify myself at the age of 10.
Mr. JENNER. With the sailor hat on?
Mr. OSWALD. With the sailor hat on, right. In the center I identify it to be Lee Harvey Oswald at the age of 5. On the far right I identify John Edward Pic at the age of 12.
Mr. JENNER. And you boys were residing where at that time?
Mr. OSWALD. At Dallas, Tex, on Victor Street. That was taken right outside, at the side of the house.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall the circumstances under which the picture was taken?
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Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; other than we wanted to take some pictures.
Mr. JENNER. Your present recollection is who took the picture?
Mr. OSWALD. My mother.
Mr. JENNER. In the background is what?
Mr. OSWALD. The house that we lived in on Victor Street.
Mr. JENNER. There is a spread picture at the bottom of the double page. Are you familiar with the area which is shown in that picture?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I am.
Mr. JENNER. What is that area?
Mr. OSWALD. That is on the playground of Ridglea West Elementary School.
Mr. JENNER. And do you recognize any of the persons shown in that reproduction?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do.
Mr. JENNER. Would you identify those, if any, you so recognize?
Mr. OSWALD. The only person I recognize in this photograph is this young man right here I do not recall his name I believe his name was Donald. He lived right around the corner from us.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Oswald, I hand you a brush pen. Would you indicate by an arrow the person to whom you made reference? Thank you.
Would you do the same on the picture identified in the extreme upper right hand corner on Exhibit 282.
Now, I notice on the spread picture at the bottom of the page, which was identified as a schoolmate, that there is to the left of that picture a picture with an imprinted arrow. Do you recognize the person to whom the arrow is pointing?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not.
Mr. JENNER. Are you able to say whether that is or is not your brother Lee?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; from this picture, I cannot determine if it is Lee or not.
Mr. JENNER. Are you able to see it clearly enough to say that it is not?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I am not able to see it clearly enough to make a positive statement one way or the other. It appears to be a little fuzzy.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have an opinion as to whether it is or not?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not.
Mr. JENNER. You just do not recognize it?
Mr. OSWALD. I just do not recognize it.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Now on page 68-A, which we will mark as Commission Exhibit No. 283--do you recognize that photograph depicted on that page?
(The material referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 283 for identification.)
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do.
Mr. JENNER. Who is it?
Mr. OSWALD. I recognize Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. Have you seen the original of that reproduction?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I most certainly have. I might add that I wore that same baby suit.
Mr. JENNER. That is shown in that picture?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. And John Edward did, too.
Mr. JENNER. Now, turning to pages 70 and 71, which we will have marked as Commission Exhibit 284, so far as page 70 is concerned, and page 71 marked as 285.
(The material referred to was marked respectively Commission Exhibits Nos. 284 and 285 for identification.)
Mr. JENNER. Spread across page 70 and partially on page 71 is a photograph, or a reproduction of a photograph.
Do you recognize any of the persons depicted on that spread page?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And do you recognize more than one person?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not.
Mr. JENNER. And which one do you recognize?
Mr. OSWALD. In the foreground on the left-hand side, on page 70, I recognize that to be Lee Harvey Oswald.
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Mr. JENNER. Is that the boy with the V-shaped design on his sweater or T-shirt, with his hand on his chest?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes sir; that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Would you identify that by an arrow.
Are you able to, in looking at that--to tell at what age that was taken, and where?
Mr. OSWALD. I would say approximately 14 years old. I cannot recognize the classroom there. At 14 Lee would have been----
Mr. JENNER. He was in New York City, was he not?
Mr. OSWALD. 1953, yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. On page 72, which we will mark as Commission Exhibit 286, there is a photograph or reproduction of a photograph in the lower right-hand comer.
(The material referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 286 for identification.)
Mr. JENNER. Do you recognize anyone in that reproduction?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recognize both people?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not.
Mr. JENNER. Would you indicate the person you recognize?
Mr. OSWALD. I recognize the person on the left-hand side of this photograph.
Mr. JENNER. That is the man?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I recognize him to be Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. At about what age?
Mr. OSWALD. Since I am aware of where this picture was taken, at the age of 17.
Mr. JENNER. Would you elaborate
Mr. OSWALD. I am aware where this picture was taken. This is in Arlington Heights High School. I believe this exhibit right behind him in the background was on the third floor of Arlington Heights High School.
Mr. JENNER. And that was taken at the high school?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And he was of what age at that time?
Mr. OSWALD. 17.
Mr. JENNER. Well, it is pretty clear, since there is a gentleman and a lady in this picture, the only two persons indicated, and you have identified your brother--would you still, however, put a arrow pointing to your brother. Thank you.
Turning to page 74-A, which is Commission Exhibit 287, there are two pictures reproduced in the lower right-hand corner.
(The material referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 287 for identification.)
Mr. JENNER. Do you recognize those?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do.
Mr. JENNER. And would you state what they are?
Mr. OSWALD. Both pictures are pictures of Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. And he appears to be in military garb. Were those taken when he was in the Marines?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. By the way, did you see him in his service uniform at any time?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. JENNER. But you do recognize these pictures as depicting your brother?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. On pages 74 and 75 of Life Magazine, which will be Commission Exhibits 288 and 289, there is a spread picture.
(The material referred to was marked Commission Exhibit Nos. 288 and 289, respectively, for identification.)
Mr. JENNER. Do you recognize any of the persons depicted in that spread picture?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do, but only one.
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Mr. JENNER. Identify the one you recognize, and locate it in the picture.
Mr. OSWALD. I recognize Lee Harvey Oswald being in the foreground of the picture, approximately in the center of the picture.
Mr. JENNER. Would you identify him with this brush pencil?
Then on Exhibit 288, which is page 74-B of this issue of Life Magazine, there appears at the bottom a reproduction of identity cards. I direct your attention to the left-hand identity card upon which appears a photograph, a reproduction of a photograph. Do you recognize that?
Mr. OSWALD. I would have to say that he appears heavier, his face is fuller, he has more hair on his head, but the eyes and the nose and the mouth are Lee Harvey Oswald's. I had not studied that picture before. But he does seem to be quite fullfaced, if that is the terminology to use there, and much more hair on his head-- there again in relation to the hair I am assuming here this photograph of Lee was taken after he returned from Russia.
Mr. JENNER. I would rather not have you assume anything at the moment. Do you identify that as a reproduction of a picture of your brother?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do.
Mr. JENNER. Are you acquainted with--were you at the time acquainted with the circumstances under which there was issued or purported to be issued a Selective Service System classification card in the name of Alek James Hidell?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I was not.
Mr. JENNER. And did you ever have a discussion with your brother with respect to his use, if he did, of the name Alek James Hidell, A. J. Hidell, or any combination of that, in which the surname Hidell was employed?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. And if I may say, at no time have I ever known him to use any other name than Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. I take it, then, you are unacquainted with any circumstances under which he employed, if he did employ at any time, the surname Hidell?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Or any other alias?
Mr. OSWALD. That's correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever know him to employ an alias?
Mr. OSWALD. No, I had not.
Mr. JENNER. Have you ever employed one?
Mr. OSWALD. Off the record, please.
Mr. JENNER. I will withdraw that question.
Mr. OSWALD. This is what it amounts to.
Mr. McKENZIE. Let me state this for the purposes of the record. In order to avoid publicity or avoid newsmen, we did travel to Friendship Airport from Dallas, Texas, yesterday evening, February 19th, and Robert Oswald traveled under the name of F. M. Johnson.
Mr. DULLES. Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. DULLES. Back on the record.
Mr. JENNER. On the following page, which is page 76, Commission Exhibit 290, is a photograph, reproduction of a photograph in the lower right-hand corner.
(The material referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 290 for identification.)
Mr. JENNER. You recognize the person depicted in that photograph?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do.
Mr. JENNER. Would you identify them?
Mr. OSWALD. I recognize the two people in the photograph--the woman being Mrs. Marina Oswald, and the man being Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. Have you ever seen that picture before?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I believe I have.
Mr. JENNER. Did you see it prior to November 22, 1963?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I believe I did, and the reason why I say I believe--I believe I either have a copy of this photograph myself, or one very, very similar to it.
Mr. JENNER. How did you come into the possession of the photograph?
Mr. OSWALD. Lee had sent it to me from Russia, showed me pictures of him
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and his wife on their wedding day in April, 1961. I received the photographs, though, in approximately May, 1961.
Mr. JENNER. Do you still have those photographs in your possession?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do. If I may say, I did turn over I believe four photographs that Lee had sent me from Russia, and I believe in all four photographs Lee and Marina were in them. And I turned these over to Mr. Jim H. Martin.
Mr. JENNER. But they are your personal property.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; they are.
Mr. JENNER. I want to get into that period of time when you were in correspondence with your brother at a later moment.
Turning now to page 78, which is Commission Exhibit 291, in the lower left-hand corner of that is a reproduction, or what purports to be a reproduction of a photograph.
(The material referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 291 for identification.)
Mr. JENNER. Do you recognize either of the two persons depicted in that photograph?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I recognize the man on the right with the piece of paper in his hand, and a notebook I believe under his left arm, to be Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recognize the other man who is partially shown in that photograph?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not.
Mr. JENNER. Did you see that photograph at any time prior to November 22, 1963?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I had not.
Mr. JENNER. And on page 80, which is Commission Exhibit No. 292, there are two photographs, one showing a lady and a child, in the upper right-hand corner.
(The material referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 292 for identification.)
Mr. JENNER. Directing your attention to that picture first, do you recognize either of the persons shown in that photograph?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do. I recognize both persons.
Mr. JENNER. Would you identify them, please?
Mr. OSWALD. The child is June Lee Oswald, and the woman is Mrs. Marina Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. And June Oswald is your brother's child?
Mr. OSWALD. That's correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Had you seen that photograph at any time prior to November 22, 1963?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I had not.
Mr. JENNER. In the lower right-hand corner is a photograph of a man holding a firearm or rifle with a pistol on his right hip and some papers of some kind in--he is holding the rifle in his left hand, the papers in his right hand. Do you recognize the person depicted in that photograph?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do. I recognize him to be my brother, Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. Had you seen that photograph at any time prior to November 22, 1963?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I had not.
Mr. JENNER. Have you seen the photograph of which that is a reproduction since November 22, 1963?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have.
Mr. JENNER. Under what circumstances?
Mr. OSWALD. At the Inn of the Six Flags at Arlington, Tex., approximately November 27, 1963, in the presence of U.S. Secret Service and Marina Oswald and myself.
Mr. DULLES. Your mother was not there then?
Mr. OSWALD. She was there at the time, but I do not believe she was in the room when this photograph was shown.
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Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, I offer in evidence as Commission Exhibits 281 through 292 the pages of the issue of Life Magazine I have identified that bear those exhibit numbers.
Mr. DULLES. Yes. I understand counsel for Mr. Oswald has pointed out that I believe you are offering only the photographs and not the text?
Mr. JENNER. Thank you, sir. May I amend my offer. I offer in evidence the reproduction of photographs which the witness has identified that appear on Commission Exhibits 281 through 292.
Mr. DULLES. They may be accepted.
(The portion of the documents heretofore marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 281 through 292 for identification were received in evidence.)
Mr. JENNER. I do not offer any of the text or any other portions of those pages.
Mr. DULLES. That is so noted.
Mr. JENNER. Are there any other events or happenings or circumstances during this 10-day period in New York City that come to your mind? You have told of the incident of taking the photograph which was identified. You told of visiting various places in New York City and being with your brother Lee. Was it a good deal during this 10-day period?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; practically every day, and practically every night, with two exceptions at night, where my brother John fixed me up with a blind date for one night only--no, I take that back. It would be just one night Lee was not with me, and that would be on the night I had a blind date with a girl from New York City, with my brother John and his wife.
Mr. JENNER. Did you and your brother Lee visit your brother John's home during this 10-day stay?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, we did not.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have any discussion with your brother Lee put it this way--did you become aware during this 10-day period as to whether your mother and brother had stayed with your brother John at any time during their New York visit?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. It was my understanding that when they first arrived in New York for a brief period they stayed together.
Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion with you as to why they left the home of your brother John?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; not to any extent--no, sir, no discussion.
Mr. JENNER. No discussion of any difficulties or any incidents that had arisen while they were living with your brother John's family?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. That induced or had a bearing upon leaving and taking an apartment in the Bronx?
Mr. OSWALD. I do not know of any discussion or any difficulty that was mentioned to me, but I understand there was some difficulty.
Mr. JENNER. Please, Mr. Oswald--the subject was not discussed with you during the 10-day period you were on leave?
Mr. OSWALD. That's correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Was it discussed with you at any time prior to November 22, 1963?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it was not.
Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion on the subject of your brother's progress in schooling in New York City?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; there was not.
Mr. JENNER. Was the subject of his attendance at school, whether the attendance was good or bad--was school discussed at all, as you recall?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; not to my recollection.
Mr. JENNER. And as a layman, and acquainted with your brother, what was your impression? Give us your present impression of your brother's state of mind during that 10-day period. Was he normal and happy and friendly?
Mr. OSWALD. He was very normal. He did not appear to be unhappy. He was quite happy to see me. We spent a good deal of time together during that 10-day visit. At no time did he act abnormally.
Mr. JENNER. Did he complain to you about school?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he did not.
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Mr. JENNER. In general did he complain about anything--any special gripes?
Mr. OSWALD. None that I recall, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall that as being a happy 10-day visit on your 10-day leave in New York City?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Both you and your brother?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that's correct.
Mr. JENNER. Did you spend time with your mother as well as your brother during the 10-day period?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. JENNER. That would be when--the evenings and on Sunday?
Mr. OSWALD. Generally in the evenings. That is the way I recall it.
Mr. JENNER. You and your brother Lee and your mother--did you do any visiting during the evening, movies, any entertainment, go out?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; Lee and I did. Mother did not join us.
Mr. JENNER. What was your impression of your mother's state of mind and well-being and her general feeling while you were there during that 10-day period?
Mr. OSWALD. May I have that again, please?
(The reporter read the pending question.)
Mr. OSWALD. My impression of my mother at that time was that she was still having a little difficulty making enough money to have the things that she wanted to have, I should say. But generally her health was good, and nothing that I recall comes to mind that would indicate that there was any difficulty between her and Lee. They seemed to be getting along quite well.
Mr. JENNER. Your impression during the 10-day period, I take it then, was that the relationship between your mother and Lee was friendly, was it?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that's correct.
Mr. JENNER. Were there any arguments during the time you were there between them?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; there were.
Mr. JENNER. Did he at any time during that period--was he discourteous to his mother?
Mr. OSWALD. If I may in my own words here, sir----
Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir.
Mr. OSWALD. The word "discourteous"--my mother did not wish us to go to certain places--I say certain places--I do not recall the places. She just did not want us going, inasmuch as we were going during the day. I wanted to as much of New York as I could while I was there. And I recall that Lee and mother and I had something of an argument in reference to staying away from the house during the day so long, and so forth. And it was not her wish that we do that. And if this was being discourteous--that is why I qualify that.
Mr. JENNER. Nothing extraordinary.
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Now, your leave terminated. You went back to Florida, and you eventually wound up in Korea.
Mr. OSWALD. That's correct, sir.
Mr. DULLES. Could I ask a question before we leave the New York period? While you were there, was there any discussion about these absences from school which I think took place just the months before you were there although I am not absolutely clear on that. It seems to me as I understand it your mother and Lee arrived in the Bronx area around September of '52, I think it was, and this was in the summer of '53 that you visited them there, is that correct?
Mr. OSWALD. That's correct sir.
Mr. DULLES. So that according to what I recall--and this may not be accurate what is referred to as the truancy, the 46 days absence from school, had occurred some time prior to your visit. Maybe you do not recall that. That did not come up at all?
Mr. OSWALD. No; it did not come up at all.
Mr. DULLES. Did anything come up about a psychiatric examination?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it did not.
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Representative FORD. There was no mention of the farm?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.
Mr. DULLES. So the psychiatric examination was not mentioned in your presence?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. It had taken place I think in May of 1953.
Mr. OSWALD. If I may, sir--mother did mention that Lee had appeared before a judge, and she said it was a Negro judge. I asked why, and she said because he had been absent from school too long, no specific dates or length of time was mentioned, and that they were stricter in New York about that than in Texas.
Representative FORD. Did this bother her, disturb her? Did she indicate the reaction to that?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir--at that time I do not recall any reaction that she had, or any comment she made about it. She just very briefly stated that he had appeared before this Negro judge in New York City, and just what I previously related about it. That was the only thing she said about it.
Representative FORD. She did not mention a man named Carro?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; nobody's name was mentioned, not even the judge's name.
Mr. JENNER. To the best of your present recollection, that is about all that occurred in the way of conversation respecting some possible truancy?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. That is all you now can recall.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that's correct.
Mr. JENNER. You were mustered out of the Marines in July of 1955.
Mr. OSWALD. That's correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did you return--well, when you were mustered out, where did you go?
Mr. OSWALD. Fort Worth, Tex.
Mr. JENNER. And where were your mother and brother living at that time?
Mr. OSWALD. In New Orleans, La.
Mr. JENNER. Were you still single?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Would you explain why you went to Fort Worth, Tex., rather than to New Orleans?
Mr. OSWALD. I considered Fort Worth, Tex., my home. I wanted to go there. I had quite a few friends. I wanted to find a job in Fort Worth, Tex. And that is where I wanted to live.
Mr. JENNER. And you did undertake residence there?
Mr. OSWALD. I did, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Have you continued to be a resident of-Fort Worth, Tex, ever since?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I have not.
Mr. JENNER. Indicate in short compass where you have resided since you got out of the service?
Mr. OSWALD. From 1955 I resided in Fort Worth, Tex. until March of 1963. From March of 1963 until September 1963, I resided in Malvern, Ark. And from September until present date I have resided in Denton, Tex.
Mr. JENNER. Did you visit your mother and your brother in New Orleans when you returned from the service in July of 1955?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did. I did not--yes, sir, it was in July 1955 when I made my first trip from Fort Worth, Tex., to New Orleans, La. I had purchased a car the second day I was home from the service, a 1951 Chevrolet, and I drove it on the third day or the second night to New Orleans, La.
Mr. JENNER. Were your quarters in a hotel, or did you join your brother and mother?
Mr. OSWALD. I joined my mother and brother.
Mr. JENNER. How long did you stay in New Orleans on that trip?
Mr. OSWALD. Approximately 1 week.
Mr. JENNER. And you lived with your mother and brother?
Mr. OSWALD. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. That was in July of 1955?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that's correct.
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Mr. JENNER. He was not in school at that time.
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he was not.
Mr. JENNER. Now, how did you find your brother, as to the state of health and state of mind?
Mr. OSWALD. He seemed to be the same to me. He had joined at that time no, sir--he had not at that time been in the Civil Air Patrol. At that time Lee was working I believe for an export firm there in New Orleans. I do not know the name of it. I do not believe I ever heard the name of it. I might have. Mother was also working at that time.
Mr. JENNER. Had you seen your brother in the interim--that is the interim between the 10-day leave in New York City and your return from Korea in July of 1955?
Mr. OSWALD. There was one leave, or perhaps it was this time in 1955 that Lee was in the Civil Air Patrol there in New Orleans, because I remember his uniform that he had. And we went out to lunch on a Sunday afternoon. And he had his uniform on--mother, he, and I.
Mr. McKENZIE. Robert, he asked you this--if between the time you went to New York City and left there, and the time you went to Korea and came back, and you were mustered out of the Marine Corps, did you see your brother at any time during that period of time?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I recall now. Leaving Miami, Fla., in 1951 January or February--I took another 10-day leave, I believe it was, and I traveled to New Orleans first, where mother and Lee was, and at this time he was in the Civil Air Patrol. And I spent 3 or 4 days there in New Orleans.
Mr. JENNER. You stayed with your mother and brother?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes; I did.
Mr. DULLES. When you come to a good place, Mr. Jenner, we will stop for 5 minutes.
Mr. JENNER. The Commission's convenience is my convenience.
Representative BOGGS. May I ask one or two questions. Your brother John is he alive?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Representative BOGGS. Where is he?
Mr. OSWALD. San Antonio, Tex., in the U.S. Air Force.
Mr. DULLES. He is a half-brother.
Representative BOGGS. He is your older brother?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Representative BOGGS. How old is he?
Mr. OSWALD. He is 32 now.
Representative BOGGS. You never had any problems in school or in the Marine Corps, did you--I mean serious problems?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; no serious problems.
Representative BOGGS. You always had problems. But you never were in any trouble?
Mr. OSWALD. I have never been in any serious trouble in my life.
Representative BOGGS. Ever been arrested?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. The only time I was on the inside of a jail was one time in Hazel, Tex., when I refused to sign a traffic ticket on the spot and I requested to be taken to the courthouse.
Representative BOGGS. Did you ever have any psychiatric mental troubles?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.
Representative BOGGS. Did you consider your brother a normal human being?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I most certainly did.
Representative BOGGS. In every way?
Mr. OSWALD. In every way.
Representative BOGGS. Did he ever give you any indications of being--did he ever discuss with you such things as shooting at General Walker?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.
Mr. McKENZIE. In order to clear something up, Mr. Boggs, let me ask one question, if I may, for the record.
Mr. DULLES. Please. Do you want this on the record or off?
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Mr. McKENZIE. Robert, from the time that your brother, Lee Harvey Oswald came back from Russia, when was this?
Mr. OSWALD. This was in June 1962.
Mr. McKENZIE. And then when was the next time that you saw him after he came to your home in Fort Worth, Tex., in June of 1962?
Mr. DULLES. Just after he returned from Russia?
Mr. MCKENZIE. Yes.
Mr. OSWALD. I saw him on a number of occasions there in Fort Worth, Tex., after he moved out of my residence to mother's, from mother's apartment to his apartment with Marina, and the children, and when they moved to Dallas, Tex., that was the last time I saw him.
Mr. McKENZIE. When did he move to Dallas, Tex.
Mr. OSWALD. This was approximately October 1962.
Mr. McKENZIE. All right, from the time of October 1962, when was--from then when was the next time you saw him?
Mr. OSWALD. On November 23, 1963.
Mr. McKENZIE. Where was that?
Mr. OSWALD. At the Dallas County Jail or Dallas City Jail.
Mr. McKENZIE. It was the Dallas City Jail.
Mr. OSWALD. Dallas City Jail.
Mr. McKENZIE. What were those circumstances? Were you in a room with him or were you talking to him through a partition or over a telephone or what, explain that to the Commission, if you will?
Mr. OSWALD. I was talking to him over a telephone through a glass window, and he was on the locked side.
Mr. McKENZIE. So for a period of over a year from the time he left Fort Worth and moved to Dallas, Tex., you did not see him, is that correct?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. McKENZIE. All right
Representative BOGGS. When you last saw him was October 1962, is that what you said?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. McKENZIE. And you had previously seen him when he resided in your home for how long a period of time?
Mr. OSWALD. Approximately 6 to 8 weeks.
Mr. DULLES. I imagine this would be covered later but it fits in. I think you are quite right. I have a question or two.
Representative BOGGS. I have to go back to the House in a few minutes.
Mr. DULLES. Go right ahead. Ask him any questions you wish to.
Representative BOGGS. At the time he resided in your home these 6 or 8 weeks were your relations with him cordial or friendly?
Mr. OSWALD. It was cordial, yes, more or less like he had not been to Russia. We were just together again.
Representative BOGGS. Did you have any political discussions with him at any time?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.
Representative BOGGS. He never discussed political matters with you?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he did not. I would say we had a tacit agreement it was never brought up.
Representative BOGGS. By tacit, do you mean that----
Mr. OSWALD. An unspoken agreement that we never would discuss it.
Representative BOGGS. I understand. Had you arrived at this agreement because on previous occasions you had disagreed about political matters?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; that was not the reason. We just never discussed politics.
Representative BOGGS. Did you have any interest in political affairs, I mean----
Mr. OSWALD. A little bit, sir.
Representative BOGGS. I mean from a philosophical point of view?
Mr. OSWALD. My own interest in politics from a philosophical point of view would be that I considered myself a conservative, a born conservative. Certainly agreed 100 percent with the U.S. Constitution and the laws that are set
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forth, and it is my upbringing, it is what I always believed in and I will always believe in it.
Representative FORD. Did you say that was your mother's philosophy, too?
Mr. McKENZIE. No, sir; he did not say.
Mr. OSWALD. Would I say that?
Representative FORD. Yes.
Mr. OSWALD. I would say--I will tell you, at this present time I feel like perhaps she has been hurt a great deal and perhaps her thinking is being changed at this very moment and at the present time since November 22d.
But prior to that time my opinion would be that she would be of the same opinion that I was.
Representative FORD. That is why you said your attitude was based on your upbringing.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. Of course, to qualify that my mother didn't actually bring me up too much. The orphan home and the military academy, and I believe there my basic philosophy was formulated. It was a very good school.
Representative BOGGS. What military academy was that?
Mr. OSWALD. Chamberlain Hunt Military Academy at Port Gibson, Miss.
Representative FORD. During the 6 or 8 weeks that Lee resided in your home, did he ever indicate why he went to Russia. You must have talked about it some.
Mr. OSWALD. There again I believe we did more talking through the mails about why he went to Russia than we did when he returned from Russia. I, of course, wanted to talk to him about this.
Mr. DULLES. You have those letters, I believe.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; we have those letters.
Mr. McKENZIE. Those letters have already been given to the Commission.
Mr. JENNER. We will present them in evidence, I think probably this afternoon.
Representative BOGGS. Did he ever tell you?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; not point blank did he ever tell me why he went to Russia.
Representative BOGGS. Did he tell you why he came back?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that he was in--the letters that I have from him while he was in Russia would indicate the same thing, that he was very unhappy living in Russia and he wanted to return to the United States, which, of course, made me very happy, and I felt like, and tried to look at it from the standpoint that maybe he just sowed some wild oats. He kind of went off to the far end of it, but I believe everyone of us at one time, especially around that age, might have done something or reached out far afield, so to speak, before we came to our senses and returned to a normal life.
Mr. DULLES. Did he seem different when he came back from Russia, was there a change in the man before and after?
Mr. OSWALD. Physically?
Mr. DULLES. No, I mean at all--changes, outlook, attitude and general----
Mr. OSWALD. The mental attitude he had from his letters that he wrote me when he first arrived in Russia were quite disturbing to me. Statements, various statements, I can't quote them word for word, but in the line of--well, he wanted to denounce his citizenship. He was a Marxist and he was a Communist and he wanted to stay in Russia, and so forth.
But when he started writing again in 1961--yes, 1961, his letters certainly indicated that he had changed his mind, and that he wanted to return to the United States and start his life as a U.S. citizen.
Representative BOGGS. You got to know Mrs. Oswald when she returned with him?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Representative BOGGS. Was the relationship between your family and your wife and Mrs. Oswald, of course, I realize you had a language barrier, but was it pleasant?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. I would describe it as very pleasant. We immediately, my wife and I both, took to Marina and June, the baby, at that time, and my wife and I both were just tickled to death, so to speak, for an opportunity to be
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with somebody like Marina and to show her things that she had never seen before in her life.
Representative BOGGS. In the time, of course, you had known her ever since she came here, and you have seen her since the assassination of President Kennedy, have you had any feeling that she was anything other than a normal housewife? You know there has been speculation that in light of the fact she was born in Russia and that she got an exit visa without too much difficulty that maybe she had connections that were not entirely just that of a normal housewife. Did you ever have any feeling----
Mr. OSWALD. The only time I had any reservations about Marina Oswald was on Friday, November 22, until approximately 2 days-later. I say during this 2-day period I was not sure whether or not she had been involved in any of the happenings of that date. I wanted not to believe that she did, but I wanted to be cautious about it. I believe on Sunday night, November 24, in my presence she gave a complete and freely stated everything up to that time that she was aware of to the U.S. Secret Service on a tape recorder. And I formulated my opinion then that apparently, and I feel this way now, that she did not have anything to do with that, and she is nothing other than just what she appears to be, just a housewife, having a very difficult time at this time.
Representative BOGGS. Have you in your own mind reached any conclusions on whether or not your brother killed President Kennedy?
Mr. OSWALD. Based on the circumstantial evidence that has been reported in newspapers and over the radio and television, I would have to say that it appears that he did kill President Kennedy.
Representative BOGGS. Would you, having reached that conclusion under the circumstances that you outlined a moment ago, and having known him all of his life, although not too intimately the last year of his life, would you give us any reason for why he may have done this?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir: I could not.
Representative BOGGS. It came as, I would think, a great shock to you?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it certainly did, and I might add that the Lee Harvey Oswald that I knew would not have killed anybody.
Representative BOGGS. Have you discussed this matter with your stepbrother since it happened?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Representative BOGGS. This, as I understand, Mr. Counsel, is hearsay but we are just trying to establish----
Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Boggs, in order that the record be absolutely clear, you were not here when we commenced this morning due to your duties at the House, let me state this for the purpose of the record and yourself and the entire Commission, you ask Robert Oswald any question that you want to ask him.
Representative BOGGS. Thank you very much.
Mr. McKENZIE. And furthermore, any information we have or any information we can get from any source will likewise be turned over to the Federal Bureau of Investigation or to this Commission or to any other investigative agency, because----
Representative BOGGS. The mandate that we are operating under is that we discover the truth.
Mr. McKENZIE. I can assure you, sir, that the main reason that we are here, and I speak for Robert Oswald, is to see that the truth is given fully, and developed as fully as possible, to give any light to this tragic event.
Representative BOGGS. I just have one or two other questions.
Mr. OSWALD. I believe your last question was whether or not----
Representative BOGGS. I am frankly reluctant to ask you the question, but you and your brother John must have speculated about how this event could have happened, did you not?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, and no, sir. To this extent: On Sunday night November 24, with the help of the Secret Service, I was able to reach my older brother John by telephone. He did not have a telephone in his house. We had to go through the Air Force base where he was located.
Mr. DULLES. Where was he living then?
Mr. OSWALD. In San Antonio with the Air Force.
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I talked to him that night and, of course, at that time he was aware that Lee had been killed. I talked briefly to him, I say briefly, perhaps 4 or 5 minutes, and discussed with him whether or not he thought it was best that he attended the funeral or not, and it was my opinion that it would not be best for him or his family since he was, his name was Pic, and to a great extent he would be out of the picture and there was no sense in exposing him to the publicity of the funeral. Not to mention the travel time involved in coming up from San Antonio and the like.
Mr. DULLES. You were not in touch with him between the time of the assassination and the arrest of your brother and the time of his death, the 36 hours?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.
Mr. DULLES. You were not in touch with your brother Pic at that time?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir: I was not.
Mr. McKENZIE. But you attempted to reach him?
Mr. OSWALD. No.
Mr. McKENZIE. You did afterwards.
Representative BOGGS. Have you seen much of your mother since the assassination?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir: I have not.
Representative BOGGS. Is this because you had some emotional problems or difficulties, or what?
Mr. OSWALD. Sir, I would say, of course, mother was out at the Inn of Six Flags with Marina and myself and the children during the week following up to Friday which would be, I believe, the 29th of November, when she went to her home and I left her to go after my wife and the children out at the farm, and Marina went over to Mr. Martin's house, this was the last time I have seen her since then. She has called quite a few times. I talked to her a number of times on the telephone. She is rather persistent to the extent that, and this is not new to me, we have never really gotten along, she tries to dominate me and my wife, and I might say that applies to John and his family, and also to the extent that it applied to Lee and his wife, and there is just generally the picture as far as I and my mother are concerned.
Representative BOGGS. That is all, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. DULLES. The testimony we had here from Mrs. Oswald indicated that it was approximately a year prior to the assassination of the President that he had not been in touch with his mother, and your testimony is to the general effect that about the same period, you had not been in touch.
Is that just a coincidence, or did something happen about that time so that both of you, both brothers more or less separated from the mother?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir----
Mr. DULLES. Maybe it is geographic, maybe there is some other reason for it.
Representative BOGGS. I had understood him to say he had not been in contact with his brother Lee, I didn't hear him say anything about his mother.
Mr. MCKENZIE. That is correct. For the year prior to November 22d had you been in touch with your mother or had your mother been in touch with you, Robert?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; we had not been in touch.
Representative BOGGS. Your mother in her testimony before the Commission, gave the impression and later in press stories that she thought that maybe your brother was an agent of the CIA. Did you ever have any reason to think that?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; and the only time the thought ever entered my mind as to him being an agent of the CIA or any other U.S. Government bureau was on his return from Russia while residing at my residence in Fort Worth, the FBI had called and requested that he come down for an interview there in Fort Worth. On the completion of his interview when I came home from work that night, he discussed it briefly and I asked him how did they treat him, and so forth. He said just fine, and he says, "They asked me was I a secret agent," or some type of agent for the U.S. Government and he laughed and he said, "Well, don't you know?" I remember that. That was just crossed out of my mind.
Representative FORD. Between November 22 and the last time you saw your mother did she ever mention to you that she thought Lee was an agent of the Federal Government?
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Mr. OSWALD. This was prior to November 22?
Representative FORD. No, from November 22 until the last time you saw your mother, did she ever mention to you that she thought Lee was an agent of the Federal Government?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; she did.
Representative FORD. Can you tell us when?
Mr. OSWALD. During the middle to the latter part of the week that we were at the Inn of the Six Flags, and at least one conversation since we left the Inn of the Six Flags, I think it took place during December 1963.
Mr. JENNER. By telephone or personal?
Mr. OSWALD. By telephone, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Would you be good enough to relate for Representative Ford--who was present, what the circumstances were, what was said, and in the presence of whom by your mother at the Six Flags?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe it was just mother and I, and I might say on numerous occasions she pulled me to one side or to one room to say something to me. It was on one of these occasions that she was talking to me about this.
Mr. JENNER. Relate as closely as you can recall it now what did she say?
Mr. OSWALD. She said she had knowledge of facts in writing that almost conclusively proved to her that Lee was an agent of the CIA.
Mr. JENNER. Did she identify the facts in writing?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; she did not.
Mr. JENNER. Did you inquire of her on that subject?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ask her to state to you the basis, any specific basis of hers on which she predicated her statement?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did ask her if she had such facts to please give it to the U.S. Secret Service.
Representative FORD. What did she say to that?
Mr. OSWALD. I think she more or less shrugged her shoulders and walked off.
Mr. DULLES. Had she been in touch with the man who has appeared as her counsel at that time, Mr. Lane?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; she had not.
Mr. DULLES. She had not.
Representative BOGGS. You at various times have tried to help your mother, I gather, while you were growing up.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Representative BOGGS. I gather you found it rather difficult even when you were younger to get along with your mother?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, sir, is that also true of your brother, Lee, and your brother, John?
Representative BOGGS. Those were the questions I was about to ask.
Mr. OSWALD. I would say this would also apply to my older brother John, and also to Lee. It appears as though Lee was able to put up with her more than I or my older brother John could.
Representative BOGGS. Your father died when you were what, about 5?
Mr. OSWALD. Five years old, sir.
Representative BOGGS. You were living in New Orleans when he died?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Representative BOGGS. What did he do?
Mr. OSWALD. He worked for the Metropolitan Life Insurance Company of New Orleans, in the office in New Orleans.
Representative FORD. Were your mother and father living a happy normal life at the time of his death?
Mr. OSWALD. Well, sir, I was 5 years old and I would say that they were. Certainly I do not recall any instance that would indicate that they were not, and I think we had a very fine family atmosphere.
Mr. JENNER. Would you state for us, please, on the same subject, the life and relationship between your mother and Mr. Ekdahl, give us the same thing with respect to that period, did they get along well normally?
Mr. OSWALD. Well, I was, of course, older and perhaps remember more, to
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this extent that on perhaps two or three occasions, I recall some very loud arguments where they were in one room with the door closed, and perhaps I by myself or perhaps in the presence of John was in another room. Nothing that I can recall that was said during this arguing other than it was just loud.
Mr. JENNER. During this period, Representative Boggs, the two boys John and Robert were at the military school. They were home during the summer vacation period but otherwise they were in military school.
Mr. DULLES. I think maybe we ought to give the witness a little rest. He has been on for 2 hours.
Hale, have you got anything more you want to ask now?
Representative BOGGS. No, I would just like to thank the witness for his cooperation.
Mr. OSWALD. Thank you, sir.
Mr. DULLES. Do you have anything? Do you have to go back?
Representative FORD. I am going to stay until we get some notice from the House if we have any call or a vote.
Mr. DULLES. Shall we take just 5 minutes off then and it might be agreeable.
(Short recess.)
Mr. DULLES. Proceed, Mr. Jenner.
Representative FORD. It would be helpful because we are likely to get a call almost any time to go back to the House, if I could ask a few questions.
Mr. JENNER. Go right ahead.
Mr. DULLES. Okay.
Representative FORD. Mr. Oswald, what was your reaction to Lee's discharge from the Marine Corps?
Mr. OSWALD. He had an honorable discharge he told me. I had no adverse reaction to it.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have in mind, Representative Ford, the change in the status of that discharge?
Representative FORD. No, I was referring to the circumstances under which he was discharged prematurely. He did get an honorable discharge at the outset but he was released prematurely on a hardship basis.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes.
Representative FORD. Were you familiar with that?
Mr. OSWALD. I was not familiar with that at the time it was going on. Of course, I was familiar after he was released on that basis. I remember Lee telling me, he said, "Well, I only lack a month," or a few days anyway before his regular release was up and I believe that was all that was said between Lee and I about it.
Representative FORD. When did you learn about the change in his discharge?
Mr. OSWALD. Sometime during the year of 1960, through my mother. She had advised me at that time she had received mail for Lee from the Marine Corps or from the Navy Department, stating that generally the reasons he had not notified them of changes of address, and perhaps even to the extent that he had left the country in the manner that he did, that it was going to go before a review board, and that he was to appear before this board to state his case, otherwise it would proceed without him. Then I became aware that the board's decision was an undesirable or a dishonorable discharge, I don't recollect which.
Representative FORD. Did you take any action when you learned of these circumstances to help your mother or to contact Lee about this situation?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; because at this time in reference to Lee there he had already stopped writing to both I and mother and there was no way that we knew of to contact Lee, and mother said she was going to take care of it and try to have it postponed or something or other, and the board reached a final decision.
Representative FORD. When your mother went to Washington, did she tell you in advance or give you any indication she was going to do that?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; she did not. I was aware of it after she came back from Washington.
Representative FORD. Did she fill you in in some detail about her return from Washington?
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Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; she did not. She did not go into any particular detail other than she tried to impress on me she had seen some, as she put it, some very important and influential people in Washington. And that was about the text of the conversation in reference to that.
Representative FORD. Did she volunteer this or did you ask her about it?
Mr. OSWALD. She volunteered this because I did not know of the trip to Washington until after she returned from the trip to Washington. She volunteered information to me that she had been in Washington and saw numbers of people, different people.
Representative FORD. The principal information you have about Lee's return from the Soviet Union is included in the letters that you have from Lee?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Representative FORD. Those will be submitted subsequently.
Mr. McKENZIE. They have been submitted already, Mr. Ford.
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, did you address me?
Mr. McKENZIE. The Commission has copies of the letters.
Representative FORD. The Commission has copies and they will be submitted for the record.
Would you care to comment in addition on what you found out from Lee subsequently of his experiences in the Soviet Union. Why he wanted to come back?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I never questioned him about that because we covered it, I believe quite fully in our letters. I was, of course, thoroughly convinced and quite happy that he did want to return to the United States and I felt there was no need to go into the reason why he changed his mind because I believe we had covered that in the letters.
Representative FORD. At the time he indicated a desire to come back to the United States, did he ever contact you about funds for that purpose?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I volunteered to help him any way I could on that. He turned down the offer. He turned it down one time I believe in letters offering him to come stay at our house when he returned with his wife and the baby.
Representative FORD. When he did return, after having borrowed money from the Federal Government, did he ever ask you for any help and assistance in repaying the loan?
Mr. OSWALD. On his arrival in New York City, I believe the date to be June 13, back in 1962, my wife received a telephone call from Special Services Welfare Center located at New York City stating that Lee and his family were present and that they needed funds to reach their destination, Fort Worth, Tex., and the lady that talked to my wife put it to the extent they were unable to help them and if some member of the family was going to help them, they had better do so then. My wife didn't know anything else to say but of course that we would, and this is what I wanted her to say. She called me at my office that day. The banks had closed but I do have a friend in Fort Worth who was employed at a bank, cashier, I believe his title, and I called him and asked him if it would be possible to withdraw $200. This was not at my bank, I would give him a check on my checking account, and at which time I wired the money to the welfare bureau in New York, care of Lee Harvey Oswald.
Representative FORD. And that was the money that they, Marina and Lee, used to get to Fort Worth.
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Representative FORD. Did Lee ever repay you for that?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; he did. He had actually spent a little over $100 for the plane tickets and, of course, we met him at Dallas, Love Field, on their arrival there. The next day even though I insisted that he keep it, he returned what he had left from the $200 and he said he would pay me back as soon as he was able to and I told him not to worry about that, but just to take his time.
Representative FORD. How long did it take him to repay the remainder?
Mr. OSWALD. I say approximately $110 to $115 during the period he first started to work there in Fort Worth and prior to their departure to Dallas he repaid this $10-$20 a week from his pay check.
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Representative FORD. Did you have any knowledge that Lee had become fluent in Russian, in the Russian language, at the time he came out of the Marine Corps?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I had not. There is also one of his first letters from the hotel in Russia that he pointed out to me that I didn't even know that he could write or speak Russian. He was being rather sarcastic in his first letters, and he pointed this out. I would answer it that I was not aware that he could speak or could write any foreign language when he was in the Marine Corps and after he got out of it.
Representative FORD. You had no prior knowledge that he was studying Russian or had become articulate in Russian?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.
Representative FORD. In your experiences with Lee during your lifetime, did he ever show a skill at language, for languages?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I know of no time nor can I recall of any time that he studied any foreign language or in my presence that he even read a book in a foreign language or attempted to teach himself any type of foreign language.
Mr. JENNER. Representative Ford, if you have reached a break, I would like to identify the exhibit the witness provided and also identify the letter to which you now have reference.
Would you obtain that telegram and also identify the date of the letter to which you have lastly made reference so that I may identify our copies?
Mr. McKENZIE. November 8, 1959, is the letter, Mr. Jenner, and the telegram is June 14, 1962.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, we have marked photostatic copies of the telegram to which the witness referred as having been received from the Special Welfare Services as Commission Exhibit No. 293, and the letter of November 18, 1959, as Commission Exhibit 294.
(The telegram and letter referred to were marked Commission Exhibit Nos. 293 and 294, respectively, for identification.)
Mr. JENNER. Would you obtain the original of those or hand the witness the originals?
Mr. McKENZIE. I have just handed them to him.
Mr. JENNER. Would you hand him the original of the letter, please?
Directing your attention to the telegram first, Mr. Oswald, which is now marked Commission Exhibit 293, is that the original of the telegram to which you made reference as having been received first by telephone call through your wife on June 14, 19----
Mr. OSWALD. Pardon me, June 13.
Mr. JENNER. 13?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. This reply that we are referring to here now is June 14.
Mr. JENNER. I see.
Mr. OSWALD. We were first contacted on the evening of June 13.
Mr. JENNER. I take it then, sir, that you received a telephone call on June 13, is that correct?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Or your wife did. And Exhibit 293 which is dated the 14th, is what?
Mr. OSWALD. I am sorry, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Following the receipt of the telephone call on June 13, did you receive or did you send any communication from or to the New York Welfare Center?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. I sent a telegram on the afternoon of June 13, 1962, wiring a total of $200 to the Special Service Welfare Center at New York, and also enclosing a message to Lee to contact me or to the extent that someone there perhaps would notify me when to expect them in Fort Worth.
Mr. JENNER. Did you receive word from New York as to when Lee and Marina might expect to be in Dallas?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. JENNER. And was that by telegram or telephone?
Mr. OSWALD. This was by telephone I first received the word.
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Mr. JENNER. Did you receive something in writing that confirmed that?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. JENNER. Is that document before you?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it is.
Mr. JENNER. It is marked Commission Exhibit 293, and you actually received that document which is now before you?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. June 14.
Mr. Chairman, I offer in evidence as Commission Exhibit 293, the document so marked and identified.
Mr. DULLES. It may be accepted.
(The document heretofore marked Commission Exhibit No. 293 was received in evidence.)
Mr. JENNER. The letter of November 8, 19 do you have a better copy, is that 1959?
Mr. OSWALD. It is 1959.
Mr. DULLES. May I just ask a question, are we putting in the original of that or is a photographic copy being substituted for it?
Mr. JENNER. We are employing as a substitute for the original a photostatic copy which has been marked Commission Exhibit 293.
Mr. DULLES. All right.
Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Chairman, could I be excused for just a moment, please?
(Short recess.)
Mr. JENNER. In view of the witness' testimony, may I suggest to the Commission the feasibility of identifying this particular exhibit since the witness referred to it in response to the questions put by Representative Ford.
Mr. DULLES. All right.
Mr. JENNER. Would you identify the date of Commission Exhibit 294, the original?
Mr. OSWALD. The date of the letter is November 8, 1959.
Mr. JENNER. Whose handwriting is it?
Mr. OSWALD. It is in Lee Harvey Oswald's handwriting.
Mr. JENNER. It is addressed, the second page of the exhibit, is an envelope, which is addressed to R. Oswald, 7313 Davenport Street, Fort Worth, Tex., U.S.A., is that you?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Are you able to identify that which appears in the upper left-hand corner of the original.
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I am not.
Mr. JENNER. Is that in Russian?
Mr. OSWALD. I would assume that it would be.
Mr. JENNER. Did you receive the letter, Commission Exhibit 294, in due course?
Mr. OSWALD. I did. 1 received it on the 13th day of November 1959.
Mr. JENNER. Is this the letter to which you made reference in responding to Representative Ford's questions?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Is the letter in the same condition now and is the envelope now in the same condition now that it was when you received it except that the envelope has been opened to remove the contents?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; they are.
Mr. JENNER. Does that include the scratching out that appears at the bottom of the second page?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it does.
Mr. JENNER. Is that which appears under the attempted obliteration, can you see what was obliterated on the second page, when you examine the original?
Mr. OSWALD. I might refer to the first cross out there, it looks like he had signed his name there "Lee." The second cross out, one word or three words or four words out of the five are legible "this written in Russian" the balance of the words that were crossed out, I cannot make out.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, I would suggest, if I may, that the witness might read this short letter aloud to the Commission which will, indicate to the Commission
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the mental state of Lee Harvey Oswald at the time he went to Russia in the very early days, and bring it to your attention immediately.
Mr. DULLES. What is the date of this?
Mr. McKENZIE. November 8, 1959, sir.
Mr. DULLES. Proceed, if you will.
Mr. McKENZIE. Do you mind if I read it, Mr. Jenner, and saving his voice a little bit?
Mr. JENNER. No.
Mr. McKENZIE. This I believe is the second letter that Robert received from Russia after he had sent a telegram to Lee telling him what a mistake he had made, and this is the contents of the letter. "November 8, 1959. Dear Robert:
"Well, what shall we talk about? The weather perhaps? Certainly you do not wish me to speak of my decision to remain in the Soviet Union and apply for citizenship here since I am afraid you would not be able to comprehend my reasons.
"You really don't know anything about me. Do you know, for instance, that 1 have waited to do this for well over a year? Do you know that I" then there is a parenthesis and some Russian printing which I presume to be Russian and the parenthesis is closed, "speak a fair amount of Russian which I have been studying for many months? I have been told that I will not have to leave the Soviet Union if I did not care to. This then is my decision. I will not leave this country, the Soviet Union under any conditions. I will never return to the United States which is a country I hate. Some day perhaps soon and then again perhaps in a few years I will become a citizen of the Soviet Union, but it is a very legal process in any event. I will not have to leave the Soviet Union and I will never leave.
"I received your telegram and I was glad to hear from you. Only one word bothered me. The word 'mistake' I assume mean that I have made a 'mistake.' It is not for you to tell me this. You cannot understand my reasons for this very serious action. I will not speak to anyone from the United States over the telephone since it might be tapped by the Americans. If you wish to correspond with me you can write to the below address, but I really don't see what we could talk about. If you want to send me some money that I can use but I do not expect to be able to pay it back."
Then it is signed "Lee", and then over to the left-hand side on the bottom of the page it says, "Lee Harvey Oswald, Metropole Hotel, Room 233, Moscow, USSR," and then underneath some writing in Russian, which I take to be Russian, which is scratched out.
Mr. JENNER. Thank you.
Mr. McKenzie, you have stated that this was the second letter that had been received by Mr. Robert Oswald following Lee Harvey Oswald's taking up residence in Russia. Is that correct, Mr. Oswald?
Mr. McKENZIE. I said it is the second or third letter. I don't know exactly.
Mr. OSWALD. I believe, sir, it is the first letter, if I may have a moment here.
Mr. JENNER. I thought it was the first.
Mr. McKENZIE. There is one other letter here from Santa Ana, Calif.
Mr. JENNER. That was earlier.
Mr. OSWALD. This was the first letter Lee had written to me from Russia.
Mr. DULLES. Could you refresh my memory as to the date of his arrival in Russia?
Mr. OSWALD. October 13.
Mr. DULLES. October 13.
Mr. OSWALD. 1959.
Mr. DULLES. And this was----
Mr. JENNER. November 8.
Mr. DULLES. November 8. He had been there about 3 weeks.
Mr. OSWALD. The first time I was aware he was in Russia was on Halloween Day 1959, October 31.
Mr. DULLES. Thank you.
Mr. JENNER. My attention is arrested to that portion of the letter in which
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there appears to be a reference to a telegram which you had previously sent him.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Had you sent him such a telegram?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I had.
Mr. JENNER. What impelled you or induced you to do that? What event, stimulation?
Mr. OSWALD. After we were notified that Lee was in Russia.
Mr. JENNER. Who notified you?
Mr. OSWALD. Star Telegram reporter in Fort Worth, Tex. Later on that same day there was quite a few newspaper reporters out to my house. I first objected to speaking to them until they stated that perhaps if we cooperated with them they would perhaps be the only source of information--that they could relay to us when they received anything about what Lee was doing, and so forth, and I agreed to talk to them.
After this interview with three or four newspaper reporters they had left the house, and another man, I do not recall his name, from the Star Telegram in Fort Worth, came to the house, and I spoke with him, and I believe at this time he suggested that it would not he wise because I was asking what did he think as to how I might contact Lee, and he suggested a letter-pardon me, a telegram, to Secretary of State Christian Herter, and a telegram to Lee.
I called the Western Union and sent telegrams, and at this time----
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, sir, telegrams, you sent one to Mr. Herter and one to your brother?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; sent two. At this time I advised the reporter of the contents of the telegram. I did not receive confirmation of these telegrams from Western Union.
Mr. JENNER. I take it from that you do not have copies?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.
However, they are printed in their entirety in the next edition of the Star Telegram, which I believe would be November 1st edition.
Mr. JENNER. November 1, 1959?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Would you please state to the best of your present recollection what your instruction by way of message was to the Western Union?
Mr. OSWALD. In the telegram to Secretary of State Christian Herter, I requested his assistance in contacting Lee Oswald through any means available.
Mr. JENNER. Did you indicate for what purpose, sir?
Mr. OSWALD. I don't believe I did, sir.
And the telegram to Lee Harvey Oswald, I asked him to contact me through any means available. I did use the word "mistake."
Mr. JENNER. Would you please give me your best recollection of the message, as you recall it, that you dispatched or ordered dispatched?
Mr. OSWALD. My best recollection of that is I sent the telegram to Lee Harvey Oswald care of the U.S. Embassy in Moscow, Russia, requesting Lee to contact me through any means available, and the one word "mistake. Keep your nose clean," signed "Robert L. Oswald, 7313 Davenport."
Mr. JENNER. The word "mistake" was by itself?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. The phrase of "keep your nose clean," is something we have said to each other since knee high, so he would know that I did send the telegram.
Mr. JENNER. Did you receive a response to that telegram?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not receive a response to either one of the telegrams.
Mr. JENNER. Neither from the State Department, Mr. Herter, nor an assistant on that telegram, nor from your brother Lee on his telegram?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Other than the letter of November 8, 1959, now identified as Commission Exhibit No. 294?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. It is the first word you had from him in which he acknowledges or made plain that he had received the telegram?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
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Mr. DULLES. Excuse me, has 294 been submitted?
Mr. JENNER. I think it has not. May I offer in evidence as Commission Exhibit 294 the document that has been so identified.
Mr. DULLES. Accepted.
(The document heretofore marked Commission Exhibit No. 294 was received in evidence.)
Mr. JENNER. It being understood with Mr. McKenzie that we may introduce in evidence the photostatic copy in lieu of the original, the original having been produced before the Commission.
Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did you speak, did you have any conversation with your brother upon his return from Russia respecting your dispatch of the telegram and his reaction to it?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. I had more or less forgotten it myself.
Mr. JENNER. There is a reference in your brother's letter of November 8 to his reluctance to engage in a telephone conversation. Had you attempted to reach him by telephone?
Mr. OSWALD. I had decided to try to reach him by telephone on Sunday, November 1, 1959. I did not.
Mr. JENNER. You were unable to, you mean?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. I placed the call and I received the New York operator, overseas operator, and there was some discussion as to what time it was in Moscow, and so forth, and I changed my mind and did not. However, I am aware that my mother tried and did for a moment have Lee on the telephone in Moscow.
Mr. JENNER. At that time?
Mr. OSWALD. At approximately that same date.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever make any effort to reach him by telephone there--after?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. JENNER. Did he reach you by telephone or attempt to do so as far as you know?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; not to my knowledge did he.
Mr. JENNER. There is a reference in the letter of November 8 to his willingness to accept money from you if you would send any. Did you send him any money?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. My reply to that was if he used it to come back I would gladly send it.
Mr. JENNER. Your reply--did you write him a letter?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have a copy of that letter?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not have a copy of any letter that I wrote to him.
Mr. JENNER. You do not know the whereabouts of that letter?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not, other than to say that I asked Mrs. Marina Oswald if Lee kept any of my letters and her reply was that "No, he always threw them away."
Mr. JENNER. In view of that, Mr. Oswald, would you please recite to the best of your recollection the contents of your letter in response to your brother's letter of November 8, 1959?
Mr. OSWALD. Sir, 1 do not remember anything other than that statement referring to the money request. I do not recall anything else in the letter.
Mr. JENNER. You have heard Mr. McKenzie read that letter through. Did it refresh your recollection, or does it as to whether you made any comment upon his political statements in his letter to you of November 8?
Mr. OSWALD. I do not believe I did at any time make any statement in reference to his political statements that he made in the letter of November 8. Generally, my statements to the members of the press at the time was that I felt Lee was not aware of what he was doing. I believe I referred to him as a kid. And that he just generally didn't know what he was doing, and that was just about the general text of anything I had to say to the members of the press at that time.
Mr. JENNER. There is an entry in your brother's diary of November 1,
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1959, somewhat cryptic, referring to three telephone calls from mother and brother. Now you say you didn't call. Do you know whether your brother John ever called him?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, not to my knowledge. However, that was November 1, sir, 1959.
Mr. JENNER. That is when the entry was made.
Mr. OSWALD. I would say that he did not at that time try to contact Lee by telephone, because I do not believe at that early date he was in Japan and was not aware that Lee had gone to Russia, because we were just aware of it on October 31, and recalling a letter from John over there, that he was not aware of it for a number of days after he actually went over there.
Mr. JENNER. I see. But efforts were made on the part of your mother to reach him or she did reach him by telephone?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I understand he spoke to her briefly. and then he hung up.
Mr. JENNER. For the purpose of refreshing your recollection, would you be good enough to read your brother's letter to you or what purports to be your brother's letter to you of November 26, 1959, and in reading through it--the reason I have asked you to look at it is that the letter is framed as a response to what apparently were questions that you put to him in your letter which was in response to his letter of November 8 and seeking to refresh your recollection as to the contents of your letter.
Mr. Chairman, this is a fairly long letter, and if Chief Justice Warren has a little time perhaps we might have--Mr. Oswald read the letter over this evening since we are quite late in the day and I can pursue it tomorrow.
Mr. DULLES. I think we had better adjourn fairly soon.
Mr. JENNER. This would be a convenient time if it is convenient with you gentlemen.
The CHAIRMAN. What does Mr. McKenzie think, I see him smiling.
Mr. McKENZIE. I am not going to place myself in a position, Mr. Chief Justice, of overruling either you or Mr. Dulles.
Mr. JENNER. I can question the witness with respect to some unrelated matters. That matter is not related to this, if I might.
Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Jenner, one thing I would appreciate if you could bring out in response to some of Mr. Bogg's questions which I don't believe he was quite clear on, I would like for the sake of the record to show what Robert's career in the Marine Corps was from the standpoint of whether he was a noncommissioned officer, and so forth, and so on, if you could bring that out.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
I had asked him to state his military career and maybe out of modesty he just left that out.
Would you--you did give us in detail in your various stages and your specialty.
Mr. OSWALD. I might say going through boot camp at San Diego, Calif., during the second week of boot training I was selected as the right guide of the platoon which actually was a go-between the drill instructors and the rest of the platoon, and I retained that position all the way through the remainder of the boot camp. On completion of boot camp I was a Pfc. I retained that excuse me, I retained that rank until I went to Miami, Fla., at which time on my departure from Miami, Fla., I received my corporal's stripe, and prior to leaving Korea in April of 1955 I received my sergeant's stripe which was my last stripe that I received in the Marine Corps.
I did receive, of course, an honorable discharge, a Good Conduct Medal, and the various citations of the unit in Korea, Presidential Unit Citations, and such.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Thank you. I can't recall whether it was Representative Boggs or Representative Ford who was questioning you about conversations between yourself and your mother regarding her claim that your brother may have been a representative of the CIA or some other Government agency, and you mentioned
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there were two occasions. I did ask you to state the detail of one of the occasions which was in the Six Flags Motel in Dallas.
Would you please state where the second conversation took place and who was present and what was said?
Mr. OSWALD. The second conversation took place over the telephone in a call that originated from my mother's house in Fort Worth, Tex., to my home in Denton, Tex.
I do not know if my wife was present at my end or who was present on the other end, at my mother's home.
Mr. JENNER. You recognized her voice?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. JENNER. It was your mother?
Mr. OSWALD. It was my mother.
Mr. JENNER. What did she say on the subject?
Mr. OSWALD. She was still pursuing this question or this speculation as far as I am concerned that Lee was an agent of the CIA, and that she was going to be able to, I believe use used the word "concrete", to be able to concretely establish that with the officials.
Mr. JENNER. You fixed that as having occurred subsequent to the occasion in the Six Flags Motel?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Can you fix the time of the second occasion more definitely than that it followed the other?
Mr. OSWALD. I would say this was approximately during the week of December 9, 1963.
Mr. JENNER. Was it before or after her trip to Washington which you have testified about when Mr. Ford questioned you?
Mr. OSWALD. This was before her trip to Washington.
Mr. JENNER. Now, when your mother returned from Washington, when she made her trip here about which you testified in response to questions from Representative Ford, did she say anything about her claim or speculation, as you put it, that your brother was or might have been an agent of the CIA or some other agency of the United States?
Mr. OSWALD. I have not talked to my mother since she has been to Washington.
Mr. JENNER. I see. So there has been no claim by her to you since the occasion of the second conversation which was a telephone call?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. During the time of your youth and your association with your brother Lee you testified this morning of the normal interest of boys in firearms. You have also testified that your brother Lee was right handed. Did you ever see him handle even a toy pistol or a cap gun other than with his right hand?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, not that I can remember. You, of course, recall sometimes when maybe he was Two-Gun Pete, so to speak.
Mr. JENNER. He was what?
Mr. OSWALD. He was Two-Gun Pete, so to speak, when we were playing cops and robbers or cowboys and Indians, where he would have two guns.
Mr. JENNER. With the exception of having two guns when he had one he had it in his right hand?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. What ever type of playing, shooting, sitting, or otherwise, he always had the pistol, rifle or cap gun in his right hand?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. You said you were using B-B guns. Were there occasions when Lee also occasionally shot a B-B gun rifle?
Mr. OSWALD. Not to my knowledge, sir.
Mr. JENNER. I have a recollection that when he was mustered out of the service in September of 1959 he spent two or three days at home in Fort Worth.
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And there was an occasion when you and he and some friends of yours went on a hunting trip.
Mr. OSWALD. My brother-in-law.
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Mr. JENNER. Or you went squirrel shooting or rabbit shooting.
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Just the two of you, or did anybody accompany you?
Mr. OSWALD. Three of us.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have a rifle?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. JENNER. Those I take it were .22's.
Mr. OSWALD. All three were .22 caliber, that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Where did you obtain them?
Mr. OSWALD. Two of them belonged to me and one of them belonged to my brother-in-law.
Mr. JENNER. Your brother-in-law?
Mr. OSWALD. My brother-in-law.
Mr. JENNER. What is his name?
Mr. OSWALD. S. R. Mercer, Jr.
Mr. JENNER. What was the occasion of this trip? How did it come about? Did you suggest it, your brother- in-law, Lee or how?
Mr. OSWALD. The day that I recall that Lee stayed with us in-between the time he was discharged and the time he was supposed to be leaving for New Orleans was a period of 2 to 3 days. One of those days, I feel sure was it Saturday, either we spent all day out at my in-laws' farm or the afternoon at the farm at which time Lee and I, and my brother-in-law went hunting.
Mr. DULLES. Was this a couple of days before he left for Russia?
Mr. OSWALD. This was a couple of days before he left for New Orleans or about 1 day or 2 days before he left for New Orleans.
Mr. DULLES. And then he shipped out?
Mr. OSWALD. To locate a job.
Mr. JENNER. On that occasion, that incident, did he have occasion to discharge the .22 caliber rifle he was carrying?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; he did.
Mr. JENNER. Did you see him do so?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. From what shoulder did he, against which shoulder did he place the butt of the gun?
Mr. OSWALD. The right shoulder.
Mr. JENNER. And with which hand or fingers of which hand did he pull the trigger and discharge the gun?
Mr. OSWALD. The right hand, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did he exhibit any proficiency in the use of that .22 caliber gun on that occasion?
Mr. OSWALD. I would say an average amount.
Mr. JENNER. Hunting rabbits or squirrels with a rifle takes pretty good marksmanship. Did any of you boys bring down a rabbit or squirrel, on the fly, I mean?
Mr. OSWALD. As I recall, one small, very small cottontail as he ran across the peanut field, all three of us were shooting at him, and my weapon that I had, one of the weapons that belonged to me, was a semi-automatic 22 and I perhaps had a burst of four or five rounds that I said I got him. But all three of us were shooting at him.
Mr. McKENZIE Did all three of you claim him?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did.
Mr. JENNER. Was that your only victory on that hunting trip or did someone else shoot down a squirrel or a rabbit?
Mr. OSWALD. No squirrels were killed that day and perhaps I believe this was the occasion that we went into what we called a briar patch located off to the left of the farmhouse; at that particular time it was very thick with cottontails, and I believe we exterminated about eight of them at that time between the three of us because it was the type of brush and thorns that didn't grow very high but we were able to see over them, so getting three of us out there it wasn't very hard to kill eight of them.
Mr. JENNER. Now, had you and your brother engaged in this very light form of hunting at any other time during your lifetime?
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Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Would you indicate the frequency of that?
Mr. OSWALD. If I recall, only one other occasion that we had been hunting together. This was during a leave that Lee had from the Marine Corps.
Mr. JENNER. During a leave that he had?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. And at which time, if I may correct myself there, another time comes to mind, I recall two times that we had this type of light hunting out there at that farm, at the same place. One time was during a leave that he had from the Marine Corps. I don't recall of any game at that particular time that we shot. I know we did handle the rifle and fired maybe target practice, something along that line. I don't recall of anything.
The second time that I now remember is during his stay after he returned from Russia, during his stay at my home in Fort Worth, that my wife and I and our children took him and his wife and child out to the farm to meet our in-laws, my in-laws, and also to do a little hunting while we was out there, and which we did just a very little bit. I believe this was on a Sunday afternoon and we didn't stay out very long.
Mr. JENNER. What weapons did you use on that occasion?
Mr. OSWALD. On that occasion, I believe the same weapons we used before.
Mr. JENNER. Would that be true of all three occasions?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe on the first occasion, which was the occasion that Lee came home on leave, that at that time I only owned one .22 rifle.
Mr. JENNER. Was that the semiautomatic?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it was not the semiautomatic, it was a bolt action rifle, with a clip on it. However, I believe Lee either used my brother-in-law's rifle
Mr. JENNER. Was that a bolt-action rifle?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it is a bolt-action rifle. He either used that rifle or a single-shot, bolt-action rifle, another .22 that was out at the farm.
Mr. JENNER. On the occasion during which you went hunting during that 3-day period, interregnum his return and his discharge and his departure for New Orleans, was the weapon he employed a bolt-action weapon?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it was.
Mr. JENNER. Is it a fair statement on my part that on all the occasions that you recall hunting with Lee he employed a bolt- action rifle?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. During your youth and prior to these occasions about which you testified, do you know of the fact or know by rumor or otherwise that your brother engaged in this light hunting or other kind of hunting where he used a firearm even though he was not with you or you did not accompany him?
Mr. OSWALD. I feel surely that he did, without recalling any particular time that he told me, but his interest along that line was generally like mine, that is hunting and fishing, and I am sure when he had an opportunity to hunt that he did do so.
Mr. DULLES. Did he ever tell you about hunting in Russia?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; he did.
Mr. JENNER. Would you relate that, please, tell us when the conversation took place and the circumstances, if it was a conversation?
Mr. OSWALD. The circumstances was it was in a letter I received from him.
Mr. JENNER. Is that one of the letters you produced?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it is.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have any conversation with him in addition to the letter, apart from the letter?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe I did along that line because as I stated our interests in hunting and fishing was mutual and he did state that he was able to----
Mr. JENNER. In response to Mr. Dulles' question, would you give the conversation? We will take care of the letter in the morning.
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I am trying to give the conversation.
Mr. JENNER. Thank you. Proceed.
Mr. OSWALD. That we talked about hunting over there, and he said that
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he had only been hunting a half dozen times, and so forth, and that he had only used a shotgun, and a couple of times he did shoot a duck.
Mr. JENNER. It was all shotgun shooting, no rifle shooting?
Mr. OSWALD. No rifle shooting, no sir. That is all they were allowed to have, the shotgun.
Mr. JENNER. This conversation took place, as I understand it, on his return from Russia when he was living with you for that month, that would be June-July of 1962?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And that is the extent of the conversation?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is.
Mr. JENNER. As you now recall it--there have been some reports, and they are only reports as far as we of the staff are concerned, of speculation about a television set, whether your brother purchased or owned a television set and whether he purchased it outright or on time with a guarantee from you.
What information or knowledge do you have in that connection?
Mr. OSWALD. I am not aware that he purchased a television set, sir. I did at his request, when he and Marina and the baby were living in Fort Worth.
Mr. JENNER. Where in Fort Worth?
Mr. OSWALD. Mercedes Street in Fort Worth, in a small duplex which was--
Mr. JENNER. Can you fix even more definitely the time of this event?
Mr. OSWALD. This was approximately the latter part of September, 1962. And at his request--
Mr. JENNER. He came to you, excuse me.
Mr. OSWALD. He called me, sir.
Mr. JENNER. He called you by telephone?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; he called me at my office from his place of employment in Fort Worth at that time.
Mr. JENNER. Give us the substance of what he said.
Mr. OSWALD. We talked briefly about how each family was doing, and so forth, and he said that he would like to establish credit and he had tried to charge something at Montgomery Ward's at Fort Worth, the West 7th Street store, and they had stated that he needed to have somebody cosign or vouch for him, and this was his request to me, and I said gladly I would do so, and late that afternoon after work, this was approximately 5:30 by the time I arrived at Montgomery Ward, I did sign for Lee's charge account. However, I was not aware of what he was charging.
Mr. JENNER. There was no discussion, I take it, at that time of what--the use to which he intended to put his credit?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I believe perhaps he did mention something about a baby chair and a baby bed.
Mr. JENNER. Was there ever any discussion between you about his purchase or acquisition of a television set?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; there was not.
Mr. JENNER. Were you ever in his home or apartment?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I was.
Mr. JENNER. Did you see a television set there?
Mr. OSWALD. Pardon me, you are referring to the apartment on Mercedes Street, is that correct?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, I was in his home quite a few times and there was not a television set that I remember.
Mr. JENNER. On any occasion that you were there?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. On any occasion when you were in any place of residence of your brother after his return to the United States, did you see in those premises a television set?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Where was that?
Mr. OSWALD. At my house and at my mother's house.
Mr. JENNER. I should have been more specific and identified a residence as one of his own rather than living with you or living with your mother.
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Mr. OSWALD. At no residence that he lived in that I was aware of at any time did I see him with a television set that I would take to be his own.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever have any discussions--did any discussion ever occur between the two of you with respect to his acquisition of a television set?
Mr. OSWALD. None that I recall, sir.
Mr. JENNER. This is, as far as you are concerned, a total blank, this television set matter?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. DULLES. I think we had better adjourn pretty soon. This man has had quite an ordeal for the day.
Mr. JENNER. It is acceptable.
Mr. DULLES. Is it acceptable to you?
The CHAIRMAN. Yes.
Mr. OSWALD. I have no objection to continuing.
Mr. McKENZIE. If you would prefer to reconvene tomorrow morning we can reconvene then.
Mr. RANKIN. I think 9 o'clock is better. I think we can finish up in the morning.
Mr. DULLES. Thank you. At 9 o'clock in the morning.
(Whereupon, at 5:15 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)
Friday, February 21, 1964
TESTIMONY OF ROBERT EDWARD LEE OSWALD RESUMED
The President's Commission met at 9 a.m. on February 21, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE, Washington, D.C.
Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; and Allen W. Dulles, member.
Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel; Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel; and William McKenzie, attorney for Robert Edward Lee Oswald.
The Chairman. Gentlemen, the Commission will be in order.
As yesterday, I will only be able to be here for a comparatively short time, because we have our weekly conference of the Supreme Court today. And when I leave, Mr. Allen Dulles will conduct the hearing. We will now proceed with the testimony.
Mr. JENNER. Thank you, Mr. Chief Justice.
I would like to return, Mr. Oswald, to the time that your brother Lee was discharged from military service and spent approximately 3 days at home. You recall that period?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do.
Mr. JENNER. Now, would you please describe his physical appearance the last time you saw him during that 3-day period?
Mr. OSWALD. His hair was brown and curly, a full set of hair. His physical appearance he was trim, weighed approximately 140 pounds, he was approximately 5 foot 9 1/2, he seemed to be in fine physical shape at that time.
Mr. JENNER. I mentioned 3 days. Was I wrong about the 3 days, or was it a little longer period?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; my recollection on that period was 2 or 3 days, and only during one of these day do I remember seeing him. He spent the day at our house.
Mr. JENNER. It was your impression, sir, that he was in good health, bright and alert mentally at that time?
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Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; he most certainly was.
Mr. JENNER. Did you describe his physical appearance as far as his head of hair was concerned?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. A full head of hair?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did he appear strained in any respect?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he did not.
Mr. JENNER. His mental condition, as far as you can tell, is what you would regard or had regarded as normal during your acquaintance with him as his brother?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Now, will you then jump to the first time you saw him subsequently thereto, which I understand was in June 1962. State the date, please, as closely as you can.
Mr. OSWALD. This was June 14, 1962.
Mr. JENNER. And where did you see him?
Mr. OSWALD. At Dallas, Love Field.
Mr. JENNER. Now, On that occasion--and take in also the period of time that he lived with you in your home during June and part of July 1962--what did you observe, and if in contrast by way of contrast, in his physical appearance and demeanor as against the last time you had seen him, in 1959.
Mr. OSWALD. His appearance had changed to the extent that he had lost a considerable amount of hair; his hair had become very kinky in comparison with his naturally curly hair prior to his departure to Russia.
Mr. JENNER. Had his hair been in any respect kinky, as you put it, in November of 1959 immediately prior to his leaving for Russia?
Mr. OSWALD. That would have been in September.
Mr. JENNER. September--I am sorry.
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it was not. It was curly.
Mr. JENNER. Did that arrest your attention, the difference in the texture of his head of hair?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it certainly did.
Mr. JENNER. You, though 5 years old at the time of your father's death--do you recall his physical appearance insofar as his head of hair?
Mr. OSWALD. My father's head of hair?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. OSWALD. He had a full set of hair.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have any baldness of tendency towards baldness in your family?
Mr. OSWALD. None that I am aware of.
Mr. JENNER. Now, I include both your mother and father and relatives on either side, to the extent that you have met those people.
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; no one that I recall that I met, relatives on either my father's or mother's side, had any tendency towards baldness.
Mr. JENNER. And you have none?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not.
Mr. JENNER. And your brother John?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. He still has a full head of hair?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Even now?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. What else did you observe by way of his facial appearance--whether he was drawn, or bouncy and healthy, as he had been when you had seen him in September of 1959?
Mr. OSWALD. He appeared the first couple of days upon his return, June 14, 1962, to be rather tense and anxious. I also noted that his complexion had changed somewhat to the extent that he had always been very fair complected--his complexion was rather ruddy at this time you might say it appeared like an artificial suntan that you get out of a bottle, but very slight--in other words, a tint of brown to a tint of yellow.
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Mr. JENNER. What else did you notice by contrast, so far as his physical appearance is concerned? And then, next, I want to go to his demeanor.
Mr. OSWALD. 1 believe his weight perhaps was a little bit less at that time. I would say probably 5 pounds-- approximately 5 pounds less than what he was in 1959, before he went to Russia.
Mr. JENNER. Did you say he appeared drawn as compared with his appearance in 1959--facially?
Mr. OSWALD. I would say to some extent: yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Now, would you please relate to the Commission any other differences, if there were any, in demeanor?
Mr. OSWALD. To me, he acted the same as he did in 1959 prior to going to Russia. Our conversations at the time he returned from Russia in June of 1962--he appeared to be the same boy I had known before, with the exception of what I noted on his physical appearance.
As far as his conversations were concerned at this particular time, June of 1962, I noticed no difference.
He appeared to have picked up something of an accent. But I took this to mean that because he had been speaking the Russian language and living in Russia during a period of approximately two and a half years, that this was the reason for the accent.
Mr. JENNER. Did these differences in physical appearance, especially his hair, his skin tone, his overall facial and physical appearance, lead you at that moment, in the light of what had occurred in the meantime, your exchange of correspondence, lead you to form an opinion, at least tentative, as to what might have occurred or happened to your brother while he was in Russia?
Mr. OSWALD. In reference to that, sir; his hair I did, either on the first or second night, when he was there at the house I pointed it out to him and actually had him bend his head down to where I could look at the top of it, and it was very thin on the top-- you could see just right down to his scalp.
And his comment on that was that he thought the weather had affected his hair, the cold weather.
Mr. JENNER. Did he make any comments when you met him at Love Field, and did you ride in with him from Love Field to your home?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes. sir. We were in my personal car, and my wife and my children were with me. We met him and his wife and his baby. He seemed, perhaps the word is, disappointed, when there were no newspaper reporters around. He did comment on this.
Mr. JENNER. Tell us what he said.
Mr. OSWALD. I believe his comment was something. "What, no photographers or anything?"
I said, "No, I have been able to keep it quiet."
Mr. JENNER. And where was that remark made?
Mr. OSWALD. At Love Field, as they came through the gate.
Mr. JENNER. Did he make any remarks on that subject as you drove into town?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he did not.
Mr. JENNER. Did he make any other comments that arrested your attention when he arrived at Love Field or while you were driving into town?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; he did. In reference to newspaper reporters again, or photographers, he asked me if I had been receiving calls and so forth, and I told him I had received two or three calls, but I said nothing, and they were not aware of his schedule of arrival in the United States, and they were not aware at that time, to my knowledge, that he had arrived at Love Field, and that he was going to be at my home.
Mr. JENNER. Having in mind the changes in physical appearance, and also the course of events since the day of his arrival at Love Field to the present time, have you formed an opinion, Mr. Oswald, as to whether your brother may have undergone some treatment of some kind in Russia that affected his mind?
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Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. Since Lee's death on November 24th, I have formed an opinion in that respect.
Mr. JENNER. What is that opinion?
Mr. OSWALD. That, perhaps in sheer speculation on my part--that due to the nature of the change in his hair, in the baldness that appeared, I reached the opinion that perhaps something in the nature of shock treatments or something along that line had been given him in Russia.
Mr. JENNER. You base this opinion on any factors other than or in addition to this change of physical appearance that you noted on his return from Russia?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not.
Mr. JENNER. Has the course of events affected the opinion you have now expressed?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; since the course of events, since Friday, November 22, 1963, his death following on the 24th of November 1963, I have searched my own mind for possible reasons of why or how this all came about. That has been one of my opinions--in reference to his hair structure and so forth, and his baldness-- pardon me just a minute, please.
Mr. JENNER. Have you concluded your answer?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, thank you.
Mr. JENNER. Has this course of events and your brother's physical appearance and any other factors you had in mind led you to form an opinion as to whether he was or had been an agent of the government of the USSR?
Mr. McKENZIE. You are asking him, Mr. Jenner, to speculate.
Mr. JENNER. I am.
Mr. OSWALD. May I have that again, please?
Mr. McKENZIE. His question was--this is off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.
Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Jenner, may I ask a question at this time?
Robert, at any time after your brother returned from Russia, or at any time after he went to Russia, did he ever remark to you as to whether or not he had been ill while in Russia?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he did not.
Mr. McKENZIE. Has his wife, Marina Oswald, ever said anything to you about whether or not he was ill while he resided in Russia?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; she has.
Mr. McKENZIE. And what did she say?
Mr. JENNER. Could you fix the time, please?
Mr. OSWALD. My conversation with Marina Oswald?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. OSWALD. Approximately 4 weeks ago, in one of our conversations.
Mr. JENNER. And where did that take place?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe in my car on the way to the cemetery, or returning from the cemetery, to Mr. Martin's house, in Dallas, Tex.
Mr. JENNER. Anyone other than Marina and yourself present?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. All right. State the conversation.
Mr. OSWALD. If I may fix the date more accurately here, sir; if I could possibly refer to my diary. I recall this conversation on January 13, 1964, between Marina Oswald and myself in my car, at which time she stated to me----
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, sir, to what are you now referring to refresh your recollection?
Mr. OSWALD. This would be to a followup of the conversation we had in reference to----
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me--the document.
Mr. OSWALD. I am referring to my notebook that I have been keeping in various events that have occurred since November 22, 1963.
Mr. JENNER. For the purpose of the record, would you read the first three words and the last three words of the page to which you are making reference?
Mr. OSWALD. "Sunday, January 13, 1964. Jim advised that"----
Mr. JENNER. That is on the first line?
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Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. The last line is "told her this story."
Mr. JENNER. All right. Proceed, sir.
Mr. OSWALD. We had a discussion----
Mr. McKENZIE. Pardon me just a second.
For the sake of the record, let me state this. A copy of this diary has been furnished to the Commission, photostated by the Commission, and Mr. Jenner has it in front of him.
Mr. JENNER. I will qualify it, Mr. Chief Justice. But I didn't want to take Your Honor's time at the moment, because I do want to cover another subject while you are still here. Proceed, sir.
Mr. OSWALD. What prompted my question as to whether or not Lee was ill while he was in Russia was the followup of a conversation that we had in relation to an incident that occurred some time in the year of 1963. I am not able to place the date of that purported incident. I was advised at that time in reference to this incident that on one day, that Lee was going to shoot at or shoot Mr. Richard M. Nixon, that Marina N. Oswald locked Lee Harvey Oswald in the bathroom for the entire day.
At the end of this brief remark in relation to Mr. Nixon, I asked her at that time had Lee been ill or been in the hospital while he was in Russia. And, at this time, she told me yes, that he had, on two occasions, been in the hospital in Russia.
I asked her what was the nature of the illness. My best recollection of that, sir, was that he was having difficulty with his sinus, and that the cold was bothering him somewhat. And I do not recall anything more specific than that in relation to the illness.
Mr. DULLES. Could I ask one question there?
Did Marina say whether this was while they were in Minsk, or she didn't indicate where he was at the time?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, she did not.
Mr. DULLES. She did not?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; she did not.
Mr. JENNER. Have you now stated and exhausted your recollection of everything she said on that subject of his illness on that particular occasion?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have.
Mr. JENNER. And you did not pursue the matter any further than you have indicated with her?
Mr. OSWALD. Sir, I believe I attempted to, and with her limited knowledge of the English language, we were encountering some difficulties. And I told her perhaps at a later date, or something of that nature, that we could discuss it more fully.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever pursue it with her on any subsequent occasion?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not.
Mr. JENNER. If I may, Mr. Chief Justice, I will return to that illness feature at a later point.
You have an entry in your diary under the date of January 13, 1964--
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, in reference to Mr. Nixon?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Now, you have alluded to Mr. Nixon in testifying with respect to your conversation on the subject of illness with Marina.
Mr. Chief Justice, if I may, I will read the entry on that particular date, and will wish to question the witness about it.
"Sunday, January 13, 1964. Jim advised that Marina told him that Lee wanted to"--and there are a series of five dashes, followed by the letters, "NMR, also, but Marina locked Lee in the bathroom all day. This was confirmed later this day by Marina. On the way to the cemetery."
Is that in your handwriting?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it is.
Mr. JENNER. Would you please supply, if suppliable, what is indicated by the three dashes preceding the letters "NMR" and identify what the letters "NMR" refer to?
Mr. OSWALD. If I may, sir, correct you there.
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There are five dashes there. And the word "shoot" was my intention to blank there. And the initials "NMR" stands for Richard M. Nixon in.
Mr. JENNER. I take it, then, that the five dashes were inserted there as substitute for the word "shoot"?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And the initials are those of Richard M. Nixon reversed?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Now, would you please state fully when this matter or incident first came to your attention where and through and by whom?
Mr. OSWALD. The first time I was aware of this incident was at Mr. Jim H. Martin's home in Dallas, Tex.
Mr. JENNER. On what day?
Mr. OSWALD. On Sunday, January 13, 1964.
Mr. JENNER. What was the occasion for your being there?
Mr. OSWALD. To visit With Marina, and to take her to the cemetery.
Mr. JENNER. You entered the home?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Was your wife, Mrs. Oswald, with you?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; she was.
Mr. JENNER. Your children?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; they were.
Mr. JENNER. You entered the home, and who was there?
Mr. OSWALD. Mr. and Mrs. James H. Martin, I believe their children were also present, and in the living room of their home there was two Secret Service agents, or one Secret Service agent, and two Dallas police officers.
Mr. JENNER. Are you able to identify any of those four men? Do you recall any of them at the moment?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe, sir, that one of the Secret Service agents, if he was either the only one there, or two of them were there, the one that I do recall, Mr. Bob Jameson or Jimson, of the Dallas office the U.S. Secret Service office in Dallas.
Mr. JENNER. Now, to what Richard M. Nixon did the initials "NMR" as you have placed them in this note refer?
Mr. OSWALD. To the past Vice President of the United States.
Mr. JENNER. Now, proceed to tell us about how the circumstance arose, your first conversation. of it, your first notice of it.
Mr. OSWALD. I was talking with Mr. Jim Martin about various other matters.
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, sir. Where were you in talking to Mr. Jim Martin?
Mr. OSWALD. I was in the den of his home, sitting on a sofa.
Mr. JENNER. And who was present?
Mr. OSWALD. Jim Martin and I were sitting on the sofa, and I believe my wife and his wife were at the end of the den in the kitchen part of it, standing by the sink.
Mr. JENNER. What is the distance between yourselves sitting on the sofa and the others?
Mr. OSWALD. I would say approximately 12 or 15 feet, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And was there a doorway, was it open?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it is an open room.
Mr. JENNER. So you were all in the same room--one section of it you describe as a den?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And the other section consists of what?
Mr. OSWALD. The kitchen, the sink, refrigerator, a washing machine, built-in oven and range.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Proceed.
Mr. OSWALD. We discussed other matters. I do not recall what they were. Just talking to him about how Marina was doing and so forth, and any other thing that we might be talking about in general, small talk. And we finally--he finally brought up this question.
Mr. JENNER. What did he say and how did he approach it? Reproduce it as best you can, sir.
Mr. OSWALD. I believe he moved very close to me. I was turned towards him.
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He was to my left. I might say at this time that the women at the sink would be on my far right, behind me generally. And he related to me----
Mr. JENNER. What did he say?
Mr. OSWALD. This incident, that Marina had told him that on a day still not identified to me, that he, Lee Harvey Oswald, had the intention to shoot Mr. Richard M. Nixon, and that Marina N. Oswald had locked Lee in the bathroom for the entire day. And that was the text to my best remembrance that was everything that was said from him.
Mr. JENNER. Have you now exhausted your recollection?
Mr. OSWALD. Of Mr. Martin's conversation to me?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have.
Mr. JENNER. Did he say how he had come about this information?
Mr. OSWALD. No, other than he had a conversation with Marina N. Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. And he was relating to you a conversation he had had with her?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did he say that she had reported this to him?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; he did.
Mr. JENNER. Did you inquire of him as to why this had not been disclosed to you before?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ask any questions of him in that connection?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.
I might add that my reaction at that time was that I was rather speechless. I believe I just shook my head in utter disbelief to what I was hearing.
Mr. JENNER. Did Mr. Martin relate to you when Marina had told him this story?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; not to my recollection.
Mr. JENNER. Did you question him with respect to that?
Mr. OSWALD. No. sir; I did not.
Mr. JENNER. Did you make any effort to fix the time when the event in question had taken place?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; in my own mind I did.
Mr. JENNER. You didn't question Mr. Martin about it, however?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. DULLES. At this time, did you know of the rumors with regard to the attack on General Walker or not?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did. And I refer, again, to the entry on January 13, 1964, and the statement that Jim advised that Marina told him that Lee wanted to "blank NMR, also." And by that "also" I was aware of the attempt on General Walker's life.
Mr. JENNER. Was anything said during the course of your conversation with Mr. Martin in the den with respect to the information you had that an attempt had been made by your brother on the life of General Walker?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, not at this conversation, it was not.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever talk to Mr. Martin at any time subsequent to this, with respect to this event?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir--preceding this day of January 13, 1964, approximately 3 or 4 weeks prior to that----
Mr. JENNER. This particular event, I mean--Mr. Martin's relating to you that Marina had advised him that your brother wanted to shoot Richard M. Nixon, the Vice President of the United States. Did you have a further conversation with Mr. Martin at any time subsequent to that--that is, after January 13, 1964?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. JENNER. You have not up to this moment?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not.
Mr. JENNER. You did not at any time later that day? You had only this one conversation with Mr. Martin, and none other?
Mr. OSWALD. On this subject, yes, sir, that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. On this particular subject, you made no effort to question him further about it?
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Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And you have now exhausted your recollection as to all of your conversation on this occasion with Mr. Martin?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have.
Mr. JENNER. And you at no time ever pursued it further with him?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. JENNER. Did you report or relate this to the Secret Service or the FBI or any other agency of the U.S. Government?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. McKENZIE. Pardon me just a minute, Mr. Jenner. May I ask a question? You have, have you not, furnished the FBI a copy of this diary that you have kept since November 22d?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. McKENZIE. And likewise you furnished it to this Commission?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. When was your diary furnished to the Commission for the first time?
Mr. McKENZIE. Yesterday morning.
Mr. OSWALD. February 20, 1964.
Mr. JENNER. Yesterday morning when you and your counsel tendered it to me?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. But between the 13th of January 1964 and yesterday morning, when you tendered the diary to me, you made no tender of any written materials nor did you relate orally to any agent or agency of the U.S. Government this particular incident?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I had.
Mr. JENNER. You had?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Please state to whom and when?
Mr. OSWALD. This Was two FBI agents on the night of--may I have a calendar, please?
On February 18, 1964, I turned over my notebook to two FBI agents at my home in Denton, Tex., at which time they asked me about this particular incident. I referred them to my diary, and turned over the diary, with the advice of my counsel.
Mr. JENNER. Was that incident related by you to them at your instance, or did they come to you with specific reference to it?
Mr. OSWALD. They did have a specific reference to it on the night of February 18, 1964.
Mr. JENNER. Who raised it--you or the agents?
Mr. OSWALD. The agents did, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did they state to you as to how they had come to have that information?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; they did not.
Mr. McKENZIE. For the sake of the record, Mr. Jenner, I would like to state what I told the agents.
Mr. JENNER. Now, returning to--when did you tell them, Mr. McKenzie?
Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Jenner, the best I recall it was either Monday--it was Monday, February 17th.
Mr. JENNER. Monday of this week?
Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, this past Monday.
And I might add that I received the diary myself sometime around 5:15 or 5 o'clock on Saturday, February 15th, and I read the diary Sunday evening, February 16th, and gave the information to the FBI agents on February 17th, at which time I suggested. that if they would like to talk to Robert about it they could be free to do so.
Mr. OSWALD. May I say something here, Bill?
Mr. McKenzie did not know the exact meaning of this statement on January 13, 1964. He asked me in his office on Monday afternoon, February 17, 1964, to fill in the blanks, and to give the man's name to the initials and what it meant, at which time I did.
Mr. JENNER. But from the 13th of January 1964 to Saturday February 15,
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1964, you had not drawn this matter to the attention of any agency of the United States or any agent of the United States, or any other person, is that correct?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; that is not correct. I did not speak to any agent of the U.S. Government.
My wife read my diary, and she asked me what that entry was.
Mr. JENNER. When did you prepare this diary?
Mr. OSWALD. I prepared it on the dates noted in the diary. In this particular instance, Sunday, January 13, 1964.
Mr. JENNER. That particular entry, I take it, then, from your testimony, was made contemporaneously with the event itself- -that is, on January 13, 1964?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. This news from Mr. Martin startled and upset you, did it not?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it did.
Mr. JENNER. You mentioned that you had gone to the Martin home, one of the purposes being to take Marina to the cemetery.
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did you do so?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. JENNER. As soon as you were in her presence in the automobile, or while you were driving there, did you raise this subject with her?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. JENNER. You made no mention of what Mr. Martin had said to you?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever speak to Marina about it?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; she raised the question to me, or told me of the incident.
Mr. JENNER. I see.
Was it on your way to the cemetery, while you were there, or returning from the cemetery?
Mr. OSWALD. On the way to the cemetery, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Please try to reconstruct the circumstances, and state as clearly as you can how she raised the subject with you, and what she said--first stating, however, who was in the automobile as you were driving to the cemetery.
Mr. OSWALD. It was Marina N. Oswald and myself, only.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Now, try to--give us the scene just as it occurred--how she brought it out.
Mr. OSWALD. We had been talking about the children, her children and my children, family affairs, and so forth, attempting to carry on a reasonable facsimile of a complete conversation within her limited knowledge of English. And at a pause in this conversation, she started relating to me this incident.
Mr. JENNER. Please, Mr. Oswald--when you say she started relating this incident, it doesn't help us any, it is not evidentiary. How did she do it? What did she say, as best you are able to recall? How did she bring it up?
Mr. McKENZIE. In her own words, Robert, try to reconstruct exactly what was said to you from the time you left Jim Martin's house until you went--in Dallas, Tex., until you arrived in Fort Worth, Tex., at the cemetery.
Mr. OSWALD. On this subject, to the best of my knowledge, Marina said to me, "Robert, Lee also wanted to shoot Mr. Nixon." And, at that time, I believe I gave her the statement that "Yes, Jim told me about this when we were sitting in the den that afternoon."
Mr. JENNER. You say you gave her the statement--you mean that is what you said to her?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
And she made her statement, referring to this incident of Mr. Nixon.
And then she related----
Mr. JENNER. What did she say?
Mr. OSWALD. I might say this, sir. In practically the same words that Mr. Martin had told me, because he had reportedly received the conversation from Marina, within her limited English--it rang a bell to the extent that the words were close to being the same to the way Mr. Martin had related it to me.
It was a very brief statement on her behalf that Lee was going to shoot Mr. Richard M. Nixon, and that she, Marina N. Oswald, locked Lee in the bathroom all day.
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I did ask her was he very angry. Her reply was at first he certainly was, or was, but later----
Mr. JENNER. When you say at first, you mean her first response to question was, "He certainly was."
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; or that he was. I don't believe she knows the word "certainly." That he was angry, and that he calmed down during the Period that he was locked in the bathroom.
And I asked her at the end of that statement, "Did he beat you or hurt you?
She said, "No, he did not spank me."
That is, to the best of my recollection, the entire conversation on the incident of Mr. Richard M. Nixon.
Mr. JENNER. Did you inquire you have now exhausted your recollection?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did you inquire of her as to when this incident took place?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. JENNER. Did she volunteer it?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; she did not.
Mr. JENNER. Did you inquire of Mr. Martin as to when the incident took place?
Mr. OSWALD. I do not recall that I did, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did you make any inquiry as to where they were residing at the time the incident was alleged to have taken place, or might have taken place?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. JENNER. Did you assume any particular residence?
Mr. OSWALD. I assumed that this took place in one of two apartments that they lived in in Dallas, Tex. The addresses I am not familiar with. They are the only two houses or apartments that I did see for myself from the outside on the night of Thanksgiving, 1963, whatever the date was, at which time we had dinner at the Martin's home for the first time that Mrs. Martin had met Marina N. Oswald.
And, at the conclusion of the dinner, the Secret Service agents, with us, wanted Marina to point out to them the two apartments that they had lived in in Dallas.
Mr. JENNER. And you accompanied them, did you?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I was in the car.
Mr. JENNER. Did you thereafter pursue this occurrence, or alleged occurrence, and obtain any additional information about it, with anybody--the Secret Service, the FBI, Mr. Thorne, Mr. Martin, Marina--anybody at all?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not.
Mr. JENNER. Did you inquire of Marina as to how she locked him in the bathroom?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. JENNER. Did it occur to you that it might be quite difficult for a 98-pound woman to lock your brother in a bathroom?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it has occurred to me exactly how this was possible, to the extent that a bathroom usually has a lock on the inside and not on the outside.
Mr. JENNER. Well, if he didn't want to be locked in the bathroom, she would have quite a difficulty--she could not force him into the bathroom.
Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Jenner, that is a question for rank speculation.
Mr. JENNER. I appreciate that, sir. I am trying to jog his recollection.
Mr. McKENZIE. May I ask him a question at this time to maybe perhaps assist you?
The CHAIRMAN. You may ask, yes.
Mr. McKENZIE. Robert, has Marina told you at anytime or do you now know where they were residing when this occurrence happened?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; she has not. And I am not aware from any source where this event took place.
Mr. McKENZIE. Were you ever in their apartments in Dallas, Tex. at anytime?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I was not.
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Mr. McKENZIE. Prior to going to--with the Secret Service and Marina on Thanksgiving evening, was that the first time that you had ever seen the apartments where they lived?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. I think we will take a break now.
I must be going to my conference. So we will recess for just a moment.
(Brief recess.)
Mr. DULLES. The Commission will come to order. Mr. Jenner, if you will proceed.
Mr. JENNER. Thank you, sir.
Mr. Oswald, we have some data that indicates or confirms the fact that Mr. Nixon was invited to Dallas in April of 1963, by the Southeast Dallas Chamber of Commerce to receive the Good American Award, but that at the last minute it was necessary for him to cancel his attendance he was unable to attend, and did not come to Dallas on that occasion. There was some publicity in connection with the giving of the award prior to the event. But I take it from your testimony that at least you did not pursue with Marina or with Mr. Martin their fixing the time of the event in which Marina, according to the information given you, locked your brother Lee in the bathroom to prevent him from any violence on Mr. Nixon.
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Jenner, if I may, with Mr. Dulles approval, interrupt you one more time for another statement.
I recall when Mr. Nixon was coming to Dallas at the invitation of Mr. Carlson and others to receive this award.
However, Mr. Nixon did come to Dallas some time within 6 weeks prior to November 22, 1963. The exact date I cannot fix, because I don't recall the exact date.
But it is my best recollection that he was there in that period of time.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. McKenzie, that may well be so.
Our information indicates to the contrary--that he was in Dallas on the 21 of November 1963.
Mr. McKENZIE. That is what I say, sir.
Mr. JENNER. You said several weeks prior.
Mr. McKENZIE. I said some time within 6 weeks prior to November 22d.
Mr. JENNER. Well, our information is that he was in Dallas on the 21 of November 1963, and not prior to that time.
But we will----
Mr. DULLES. I think there is a misunderstanding there. You are technically correct. It was the day before.
Mr. McKENZIE. I couldn't remember the exact date, Mr. Dulles, and I wasn't going to be tied down to any exact date.
Mr. DULLES. You are technically correct.
Mr. McKENZIE. November 21 was before November 22.
Mr. JENNER. Well, the inference of the 6 weeks----
Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Jenner, the reason I say 6 weeks--as I explained to Mr. Dulles, I don't know exactly when it was, but I know it was prior to November 22d, Dick Nixon was in Dallas.
Mr. JENNER. Well, Mr. Chairman, we will obtain that information and make it part of the record.
Now, Mr. Oswald, in view of what you have related with regard to this particular event, I ask you this question: Would you please state why you did not report this circumstance to any agency or agent of the U.S. Government up to the time that you gave your diary to Mr. McKenzie and he turned it over to the FBI?
Mr. OSWALD. An assumption on my part at the time this was told to me was that some Federal agents were aware of this. Nobody told me that they were aware of it. I repeat, again, it was an assumption on my part that somebody was perhaps aware of this, as they were, before I was--aware of the alleged shot at General Walker of the same year.
Mr. JENNER. I see.
Did you discuss this event with Mrs. Oswald, that is, your wife, Vada?
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Mr. OSWALD. Briefly I did, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Now, when did you do that?
Mr. OSWALD. Some time around the latter part of January 1964, at which time----
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. That is several weeks after you made this entry in your diary, and after the event occurred?
Mr. OSWALD. Two or three weeks after I made this entry in my diary January 13, yes, sir, that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. What were the circumstances that led you to discuss the matter with her?
Mr. OSWALD. My wife had read my diary, and she had come to this entry on January 13, 1964, and she asked me to fill in the blanks and state who it was, at which time I did.
Mr. DULLES. Did I understand you to say earlier that your wife also prepared a diary?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, she did not. She had read my diary, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Until you retained Mr. McKenzie, had you retained counsel?
Mr. OSWALD. I had consulted counsel.
Mr. JENNER. And what counsel?
Mr. OSWALD. Mr. Weldon Knight, of Denton, Tex.
Mr. JENNER. Had you exhibited to Mr. Knight the diary we have been discussing?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he was not aware of the diary we are discussing.
Mr. JENNER. I take it from your testimony you did not discuss this particular event with Mr. Knight.
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever exhibit your diary to Mr. Thorne?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever discuss the existence of the diary with Mr. Thorne?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not,
Mr. JENNER. Prior to the time you delivered the diary to Mr. McKenzie, had you disclosed to anybody other than Mrs. Oswald, your wife Vada, the existence of the diary?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. McKENZIE. To whom?
Mr. OSWALD. Mrs. Marina Oswald, approximately the first week of February 1964, or January 1964 I advised her that I--
Mr. McKENZIE. You say approximately the first week of January or February. You mean approximately the first week of February or the last week of January?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir--thank you--that I was writing down various happenings that had occurred since November 22, 1964.
Mr. JENNER. And you were in the process of preparing a memorandum, really, rather than a diary, of past events?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Did you do any more than just tell her that you were preparing such a statement or memorandum?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. JENNER. You did not have occasion, then, at that time to discuss further with her the Richard M. Nixon matter?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. JENNER. Since we have referred to this document, Mr. Chairman, could I pursue it, at least as to how it came into existence?
Mr. DULLES. Do you propose to introduce it in evidence?
Mr. JENNER. Yes, I do.
I propose now to qualify the diary which you so kindly produced yesterday, Mr. McKenzie.
Mr. McKENZIE. Certainly.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Oswald, yesterday morning your counsel, Mr. McKenzie, delivered to me as an agent of the Commission a ringed notebook, which you have before you, do you not?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
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Mr. JENNER. And is that notebook still intact as it was when you delivered it to me yesterday?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it is.
Mr. JENNER. Does any part of that notebook contain any entries relating to anything involving your brother?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it does.
Mr. JENNER. Would you note the particular pages and put a paper clip on them, please?
Would you read the first paragraph of the first page which has been clipped?
Mr. OSWALD. "Dated December 6, 1963, for the history of the past 2 weeks as seen through my eyes, and heard with my ears, and felt with my body I write for future reference for myself and for the future members of the family."
Mr. JENNER. Would you read the last sentence of the last page you have clipped?
Mr. OSWALD. "Marina said she was shocked when the FBI told her this story."
Mr. JENNER. May I approach the witness, Mr. Chairman?
Mr. DULLES. Please. What was "this story"?
Mr. JENNER. May we consider that a question to the witness, please?
Mr. DULLES. Yes.
Mr. OSWALD. If I may read the entire entry dated January 19, 1964.
Mr. JENNER. Is this entry in your handwriting?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Was it made contemporaneously with the event recorded?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it was.
Mr. JENNER. This event took place on Sunday, January 19, 1964?.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And you made an entry contemporaneously or shortly thereafter?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. For what purpose?
Mr. OSWALD. For the purpose of writing down a reference for myself and for my family on all events that I could learn about in relation to Lee's life.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, before the paragraph is read, if I may--is there another entry in your hand-writing on that page?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; there is.
Mr. JENNER. Is it the only other entry on that page?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it is.
Mr. JENNER. Is it the entry of January--Sunday, January 13, 1964, relative to Mr. Nixon about which you have already testified?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And which you have read in full into the record?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have.
Mr. JENNER. Now, you are going to read for the purpose of the record the balance of that page, are you not?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. OSWALD. "Sunday, January 19, 1964. Marina and the Martins had gone to Kathy Ford's house in Richardson, when we arrived at the Martin's house around 2 p.m. They returned approximately about 4:45 p.m. On the way to the grocery, Jim said the FBI had asked Marina during the week if she knew"----
Mr. JENNER. Is there a blank there?
Mr. OSWALD. No sir. I had omitted a word.
Mr. JENNER. What was the word?
Mr. OSWALD. "that Lee".
Mr. JENNER. Was it an inadvertent omission?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, it was.
Mr. JENNER. And the omission was what word?
Mr. OSWALD. "If she knew Lee had"----
Mr. JENNER. You now have a specific recollection you intended to write the word "Lee"?
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Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
"If she knew Lee had tried to commit suicide while in Russia prior to their marriage. She did not, and it was the first I knew about it. Marina later confirmed this, and said that she had asked Lee two or three times what was the cut on his wrist, pointing to the cut on his left wrist. Lee would become very mad and tell her nothing. The FBI read this in Marina's book."
Mr. McKENZIE. "Read this in Marina's book." You misread there. "The FBI read this in Lee's book."
Mr. JENNER. That is correct?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
"Understand he had a date with another girl around 8 p.m. (This is in Moscow.)"
Mr. JENNER. Is that in parentheses?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it is.
Mr. JENNER. The words "this is in Moscow" are in parentheses?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
"And right before she was due to arrive, he cut his wrist. Marina said she was 'shocked' when the FBI told her this story."
Mr. JENNER. I will not question the witness further about that entry-unless you wish to pursue it at the moment.
Mr. DULLES. No, follow your own order.
There is one question I would ask that relates to the past. That is what you testified to just a moment before. This is with regard to locking in the bathroom for a day.
Did Marina indicate that that was for the purpose of keeping Lee away from possibly Nixon, if he was to be there that day, or was it to cool him down? Did you get any impression as to what the purpose was of the locking in the bathroom?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I most certainly did. Her intentions as related to me was to keep him from shooting at Mr. Nixon.
Mr. JENNER. On that particular day, or on some future occasion?
Mr. OSWALD. I would say on the particular day-pardon me. I misunderstood the question.
Mr. McKENZIE. I think he misunderstood the question.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Was it your impression that Mr. Nixon was to be in Dallas on that particular day, and that that is the day that Marina locked him in the bathroom?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Was she locking him in the bathroom to cool him off so he would not attempt it when Mr. Nixon might be in town some later date?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, it was her intention, or my impression of her intentions, that she locked him in the bathroom on that date, to keep him on that date from shooting at Mr. Richard M. Nixon.
Mr. JENNER. So your impression was this was an imminent event?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. DULLES. Or that she thought it was an imminent event?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, that, thank you.
Mr. DULLES. That is all I have now.
Mr. JENNER. I take it from your testimony that this ringed notebook, and in part a diary, is a record first of past events-- that you prepared it subsequently to the events recorded therein.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Now, start from the beginning, that is the first page, the first paragraph of which you have read, in order to identify it. I notice a date--December 6, 1963. Do you find it, sir?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Is that the date on which you prepared at least the first page or started this memorandum?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Now, would you please take that memorandum or notebook and identify each page that you wrote at the first sitting--that is, what you first recorded in the book on the first occasion you wrote in it.
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Mr. OSWALD. On the eighth page, approximately midway down, in the left-hand margin I have a date of 12-7.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Now, I take it, therefore, that your first entries were made that you made, covered the pages commencing with the page dated at the top December 6, 1963, and proceeding consecutively to the eighth page, and in the center of that page approximately, at the margin, there appears the figures 12-7.
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. You wrote all the intervening material at one sitting?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And the 12-7 refers, I take it, to December 7, 1963?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And that is the day following your having made the first entries?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Which is December 6, 1963.
Are all the pages that intervene in your handwriting?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; they are.
Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Jenner, if I may, and for the purpose of the record, to help speed up the proceedings, I will state on behalf of Mr. Oswald that all the pages of the diary which you have there in front of you, and which should be and will be marked an exhibit to the Commission's record, are in Mr. Oswald's handwriting, they were written simultaneously on the date as shown in the diary, and were his recollections of the event as it occurred on that date. Is that correct Robert?
Mr. JENNER. I appreciate your suggestion, Mr. McKenzie, but there are some breaks that I would like to identify.
Mr. McKENZIE. Pardon me, sir.
Mr. JENNER. I have marked the document now as Commission Exhibit 323.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 323 for identification.)
Mr. DULLES. And you wish to ask that it be admitted in evidence?
Mr. JENNER. If I may defer that for a moment.
Are all of the pages of the diary which you have separated and clipped together at my request in your handwriting?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; they are.
Mr. JENNER. Now, proceeding from the eighth page, which contains the date entry December 7, 1963, would you please identify what you wrote on the particular occasion-that is, December 7, 1963? I take it the balance of that page?
Mr. OSWALD. The balance of that page, the following entire page, and the first part of the next page.
Mr. JENNER. Down to what?
Mr. OSWALD. "for me to come to his office" and a date----
Mr. JENNER. Is the date 12-11-63?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. DULLES. Are these pages numbered?
Mr. JENNER. They are not.
Mr. McKENZIE. I think we should have them numbered at this time, if the Commission would so desire, sir. We can number them-Robert can number them at the bottom of the page consecutively all the way through, and likewise number the exhibit.
Mr. JENNER. I would like to number the photostat that we have rather than to place any markings on the original.
Mr. MCKENZIE. That is fine.
Mr. JENNER. Would it help you, Mr. Chairman, if I examined from the seat beside you, so you can see the exhibit?
The occasion next after December 7, 1963, when you made an entry in your notebook, I take it, was on December 11, 1963.
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And would you please indicate commencing with that entry in the upper portion of the page how much--what portions of the notebook you wrote on that occasion?
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Mr. OSWALD. On the page referred to, from the date of 12-11-63, on the 11th page following that, I have an asterisk in the left-hand column.
Mr. JENNER. Would you read the first line of that page?
Mr. OSWALD. "Complete with Marina."
Mr. JENNER. And the last line?
Mr. OSWALD. "around 11 a.m., the first great shock of the day"
Mr. JENNER. Just the last line.
Mr. OSWALD. "also they were having a hard time locating".
Mr. JENNER. Now, there is an asterisk in the left-hand margin?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Approximately the center of the page?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. I gather from your testimony that the entry you made then on 11th of December 1963, commenced at the point that you have that date in the margin, and runs to, throughout the pages consecutively--down to the asterisk of the page you have now identified.
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. When did you make the entry that is opposite the asterisk, and that follows the asterisk?
Mr. OSWALD. I do not recall the exact date, sir. I do recall stopping at that period and making the balance of the entries at a later date after December 11, 1963, and prior to January 13, 1964.
Mr. DULLES. Were they all made at one time?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. DULLES. The post asterisk entries?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. From the asterisk until the completion of the diary to the date of January 13, 1964, was made at one time.
Mr. JENNER. And it recorded past events. It was not made contemporaneously with the events recorded?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. So that the first entries in this notebook that are diary entries in the sense that they are made contemporaneously with the event, to immediately record the event, are those appearing on the last page, consisting of two entries, one dated Sunday, January 13, 1964, and one dated Sunday, January 19, 1964?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
I have noted an error in those dates to the extent that there is only 6 days in between those two Sundays. One date is wrong.
Mr. JENNER. You mean either January 13, 1964, is incorrect or Sunday, January 19, 1964, is incorrect?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. It was an error on my part. And if I may refer to a calendar, I will correct the dates.
Mr. JENNER. Is that a '63 calendar you have there?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; this is a '64.
I would correct the first date as appeared in my diary of Sunday, January 13, 1964, to be corrected to January 12, 1964, and the second date of January would be correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. So wherever in your testimony this morning you have referred to the Sunday, January 13 date, that is to be corrected to January 12, 1964?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. For the purpose Of further identification of the exhibit, and in the context of Mr. McKenzie's and my agreement to substitute a photostatic copy for the original. I will undertake to number the pages of the exhibit on the photostatic copy.
Mr. McKENZIE Would you like Robert to do that?
Mr. JENNER. Well, I would like to have him follow, so that the numbers on the photostat correspond with the pages consecutively in the original.
As I number the pages, Mr. Oswald, would you follow me, so that the page numbers I place on the exhibit are correct in that they are in sequence with the original?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
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Mr. JENNER. The first page I am marking No. 1. The next page, No. 2. The next, No. 3.
Would you observe each time that the photostat is a photostat of the original?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I am observing it.
Mr. JENNER. Page 4 is next.
Five is next. Six is next. Seven is next. Eight is next. Nine is next. Ten is next. Eleven is next. Twelve is next. Thirteen is next. Fourteen. Fifteen. Sixteen. Seventeen. Eighteen. Nineteen. Twenty.
Now, page 20 is the reverse side of the page numbered on its face 19, is it not?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; that is not correct. It is an insertion to the page that has not been numbered yet, page 21.
Mr. JENNER. But isn't it a fact that the entry on the page now numbered 20 is on the reverse side of the page numbered on its face 19?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I am sorry. You are correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. But the point you are making is that the entry on page now numbered 20 relates to page 21?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
We will now mark page 21. Twenty-two.
Mr. DULLES. What are you marking that insert as far as our copy is concerned?
Mr. JENNER. As page 20.
Mr. DULLES. Wouldn't it be better to make it 20-A?
Mr. JENNER. I thought from the record that I had made clear that page number 20 was the reverse side of page numbered on its face 19.
Mr. DULLES. All right. Just so you are clear.
Mr. JENNER. Have we covered page 22?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Twenty-three. Twenty-four. Twenty-five. Twenty-six. Twenty-seven.
As I proceeded in numbering the photostat, you placed, did you not, in your own handwriting--followed me and placed the same page numbers in your own handwriting on the pages in question as you wrote the numbers on them--the same pages--on the photostat?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. DULLES. Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. DULLES. Back on the record.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Oswald, do the entries that you have made in the notebook on pages 1 through 27 now identified represent your recollection of the events recorded at the time that you recorded the events?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; they do.
Mr. JENNER. Have you had an opportunity to review those entries since they were made?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not.
Mr. JENNER. Have you reread any portions of any of these entries, other than or in addition to those you read to the Commission this morning?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not.
Mr. DULLES. Mr. Chairman, I now offer in evidence as Commission Exhibit No. 323 the pages of the notebook which have been identified by the witness, and which have been numbered 1 through 27.
Mr. DULLES. Exhibit No. 323 will be accepted.
(The document heretofore marked for identification as Commission Exhibit No. 323 was received in evidence.)
Mr. JENNER. Now, I would like to direct your attention to page 5 of your notebook.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. At that point you were recording the course of events on what day?
Mr. OSWALD. Friday, November 22, 1963.
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Mr. JENNER. To orient you and the Commission, the entry to which I refer, that is the paragraph, reads as follows. Follow me, please.
"Mother and I talked briefly and after about 30 minutes we were taken across the hall to where Marina and the two children were. (This was the first I knew of the new baby.) A Mrs. Paine was also present. We talked a little and shortly Mr. Paine--who the police had been talking to, came out of the office and Mrs. Paine introduced us. I did not like the appearance of Mr. Paine, nothing really to put my finger on, but I just had a feeling.
"I still do not know why or how"what is that next word?
Mr. OSWALD. "but".
Mr. JENNER. "But Mr. and Mrs. Paine are somehow involved in this affair. Shortly thereafter Mother, Marina, and the children and the Paines left to go to the Paines' house in Irving, and I advised them I would stay there and see them tomorrow."
When you recorded "I would stay there" you mean remain in Dallas? What did you mean?
Mr. OSWALD. My full meaning there, sir, was that I would remain at the Dallas police station, and take a hotel room in Dallas, and spend the night.
Mr. JENNER. Now----
Mr. DULLES. May I ask just one question there for clarity? It refers to an office. Is that the office of the Dallas police?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. DULLES. The Dallas police station?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. I take it from this entry you had not heretofore ever met either Mr. or Mrs. Paine?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And would you elaborate upon, please, your statement recorded on December 6, 1963, that you did not like the appearance of Mr. Paine "nothing really to put my finger on, but I just had a feeling. I still do not know why or how, but Mr. and Mrs. Paine are somehow involved in this affair."
Mr. OSWALD. Well, I was introduced to Mr. Paine at the Dallas police office on the night of November 22, 1963. His wife introduced us. His handshake was very weak and what I might term a live fish handshake.
Mr. JENNER. Live or dead?
Mr. OSWALD. And his general appearance, his face, and most particularly his eyes to me had what I would term a distant look to them, and that he wasn't really looking at you when he was.
Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Jenner, if you will, please, would you ask the witness whether he meant a live fish or a cold dead fish.
Mr. OSWALD. Sir, I believe I mean a live fish. A cold, dead fish would be stiff.
Mr. McKENZIE. All right.
Mr. JENNER. We are seeking to obtain the basis upon which you made this entry.
Mr. OSWALD. It was Mr. Paine's general appearance and the manner in which he held himself, and by this I mean the way he stood and the way he looked at yon, and you had that feeling, as I stated before, that he was not really looking at you.
Mr. DULLES. You say there that Mrs. Paine introduced Mr. Paine to you. When had you previously made the acquaintance of Mrs. Paine just before this?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes sir; that is correct.
Mr. DULLES. On that same day?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And you record that in your memorandum, do you not, on a previous page?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes sir; I do.
Mr. JENNER. The fact of the introduction?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes sir; I do so.
Mr. JENNER. I think the Commission would be interested further in explaining your remark "I still do not know why or how, but Mr. and Mrs. Paine are somehow involved in this affair." What did you mean by that? That is on page 6.
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Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I just wanted to verify that this was still under my date, original entry of December 6, 1963.
At the time I wrote the statement, "I still do not know why or how, but Mr. and Mrs. Paine are somehow involved in this affair," I meant by this statement that I had gathered that after our meeting of November 22, 1963, at the Dallas police station, to the date of December 6, 1963, that Mr. Paine and Mrs. Paine were separated, and that I had read approximately at this time and I am not sure that I had read this particular thing in the newspaper prior to December 6, 1963--but I feel like I did-that in a Dallas paper it referred to an incident at a Grand Prairie Rifle Range where some people had identified Lee as being at this rifle range, and that on one occasion a man, and the description was given in the newspaper, had handed Lee Harvey Oswald a rifle over this fence where he was standing inside the rifle range. As I read this description in the newspaper, I reached the conclusion from that description that it was Mr. Paine.
Mr. JENNER. Any other basis that you now recall upon which you predicated the statement that, "Somehow Mr. and Mrs. Paine are involved in this affair."
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; if the newspaper I react at that particular time is dated after December 6, 1963, the statement that I just read a few minutes ago, "I still do not know why or how, but Mr. and Mrs. Paine are somehow involved in this affair"-I made that statement then based on my meeting Mr. and Mrs. Paine at the Dallas police station on Friday night, November 22, 1963.
Mr. JENNER. Now, would you please describe Mr. Paine as he appeared on that particular occasion-first, his physical appearance, and then follow with how he was dressed. Give his height, weight, color of eyes and hair, as you recall them.
Mr. OSWALD. I recall Mr. Paine to be approximately 6 feet in height. I do not recall the color of his hair. He is of slender build. Perhaps I would establish his weight around 160 or 165 pounds. His facial appearance was quite drawn-and this is a conclusion on my part, because I had not met him before--he appeared to be quite drawn in the face.
His eyes, I would say, would have to me a hollow look.
Mr. JENNER. What color were his eyes?
Mr. OSWALD. I do not know, sir.
Mr. JENNER. You don't presently recall?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not.
Mr. JENNER. You made no note of it at the time?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. JENNER. What was his complexion-ruddy, pale?
Mr. OSWALD. I would say his complexion would be ruddy complected.
Mr. JENNER. Was he clean shaven?
Mr. OSWALD. To the best of my recollection, he was, sir.
Mr. JENNER. No mustache, no beard?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. What else did you notice about his appearance? How did he part his hair? Do you recall?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall whether he did part it?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not. I believe this to be correct--that I never did get any higher than looking at Mr. Paine's eyes, and I do not believe I looked at his hair or above his eyes at any time.
Mr. JENNER. How long were you with Mr. Paine on that occasion?
Mr. OSWALD. Approximately five minutes.
Mr. JENNER. Had you ever seen Mr. Paine subsequently thereto?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I have.
Mr. JENNER. On how many occasions?
Mr. OSWALD. On one other occasion, sir.
Mr. JENNER. When?
Mr. OSWALD. This would be approximately a Sunday afternoon in the middle of December 1963.
Mr. JENNER. That would be approximately a week after you made this entry?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes sir. In the presence of Mr. Jim H. Martin, and Mr. John
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Thorne. We traveled from Mr. Martin's home to the Paines' house in Irving to pick up Marina's and Lee's clothes that were still there.
Mr. JENNER. Still at the Paines' home?
Mr. OSWALD. Still at the Paines' home. I saw. Mr. and Mrs. Paine again on that day--I mean at that time. That was my second and only time I have ever seen them. Mr. and Mrs. Paine helped gather up the belongings of Marina and the children and Lee's personal belongings that were still there.
Mr. JENNER. To make it clear, Mr. Oswald, did Mr. Paine accompany you with Mr. Martin and Mr. Thorne to the Paine home, or did you meet Mr. Paine when you arrived there?
Mr. OSWALD. We met Mr. Paine and Mrs. Paine on our arrival at their home in Irving, Texas.
Mr. JENNER. How long were you there?
Mrs. OSWALD. Approximately 45 minutes to an hour.
Mr. JENNER. How was he clothed on that occasion?
Mrs. OSWALD. In a sport shirt and a pair of slacks, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And how was he clothed on the occasion that you record here on page 6?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe also at that time, sir, that he had a sport shirt on and a pair of slacks, and perhaps a sport jacket or jacket of some type.
Mr. JENNER. Was his head covered on either occasion?
Mr. OSWALD. No. sir, it was not.
Mr. JENNER. What did you notice, if anything, as to whether he had straight hair or a full head of hair on him? Was he bald?
You have already said you don't recall the color of his hair, am I correct on that?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
In referring to the second meeting of Mr. Paine and myself, in reference to his hair, I would say his hair was practically a full set of hair, dark and short.
Mr. JENNER. When you say short, you mean cut short, or a crew cut?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, just cut short.
Mr. JENNER. How do you describe your own head of hair, as to its cut? Is it cut short?
Mr. OSWALD. Presently, I would describe wearing mine at a medium length, for myself.
Mr. McKENZIE. How about Mr. Jenner's?
Mr. OSWALD. I would describe his as being in medium length.
Mr. JENNER. I think you are right.
Mr. DULLES. May I ask one question there?
Had you known prior to November 22d that Marina was living with Mrs. Paine?
Mr. OSWALD. No sir; I did not.
Mr. DULLES. You had not known that before November 22d?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, I did not.
Mr. JENNER. Did you know at the time you were introduced to Mr. Paine?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. JENNER. And you had become advised in that respect by whom?
Mr. OSWALD. By Mrs. Paine.
Mr. JENNER. Are those the only two occasions you have had any contact with Mr. Paine?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Would you describe her, please?
Mr. OSWALD. A tall woman, approximately 110 pounds-and by tall I mean approximately 5 foot 11, or 6 feet in height.
Mr. JENNER. Weighing only 110 pounds?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, very slender. A slender face, also--not a full face.
Mr. JENNER. When you say also, are you now referring to Mr. Paine?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I was referring to my statement that Mrs. Paine was slender, and also that she was slender in the face.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Thank you.
Mr. OSWALD. Long hair, I believe to be brown in color.
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Mr. JENNER. How did she do her hair, was it in braids?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. I believe it was just hanging down long.
Mr. JENNER. When you say long, how long?
Mr. OSWALD. Shoulder height.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Oswald, would you accommodate us-not to do it now, but at noontime, if you have the time, to read through your diary to the court reporter, because some of the writing I have difficulty interpreting. The Commission would appreciate it if you would interpret your own writing on the exhibit.
Mr. OSWALD. All right, sir. I understand that you want me to read the entire diary, is that correct?
Mr. JENNER. Yes, to the court reporter-as part of the record, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. DULLES. You may proceed.
Mr. JENNER. What kind of a student were you, Mr. Oswald?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe my average in school was--if I may, sir, ask you-are you talking about my over-all average?
Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir, I seek only the over-all.
Mr. OSWALD. I would say a C or C-plus, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Are you acquainted with the scholarship in that respect of your brother John?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I am not. I could, if you wish me to, make an opinion on what I think it would be.
Mr. JENNER. This opinion being based upon your attending school with him, as you testified yesterday?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And discussions with him back and forth between the both of you as to how you were getting along?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Common interest in your progress scholarshipwise?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. What is your present recollection as to his scholarship?
Mr. OSWALD. That would be a C-plus or a B.
Mr. JENNER. A touch higher than yours?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have an opportunity during your lifetime to form a like opinion as to the scholarship of your brother Lee?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have.
Mr. JENNER. And what was his scholarship?
Mr. OSWALD. I would say a C to a C-plus, in the same category that I place myself.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Oswald and Mr. McKenzie, Mr. Chairman, have furnished us with the originals of a series of letters and postcards which Mr. Oswald, the witness, received from his brother Lee Harvey Oswald. We have prepared photostatic copies on a Xerox machine of each of those letters, and each envelope relating to that letter. And in the case of postcards the front and reverse side of postcards.
We were further accommodated by-yesterday afternoon following the close of the session-by sitting down with Mr. Oswald and in his presence comparing the photostatic copy of each document with the original, the original being in the possession of Mr. Oswald. And I am marking each of those documents with an exhibit number.
Mr. DULLES. Could you give us, Mr. Jenner, the first and last dates, so we have an idea of the period covered? I have a general idea, of course.
Mr. JENNER. Yes. Two of these items are not in exact sequence, but----
Mr. DULLES. Two have been introduced already, have they not?
Mr. MCKENZIE. Yes, I think you are right, Mr. Dulles.
Mr. JENNER. That is correct. A letter of November 8, 1950, introduced in evidence yesterday. I don't recall what the second one was, but at least----
Mr. DULLES. Were they marked at that time as exhibits?
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Mr. JENNER. That was marked as an exhibit, And Mr. Liebeler has it The November 8 letter, Mr. Chairman, is marked Commission Exhibit 294, and it is in evidence.
Mr. DULLES. There was only one letter, or were there two?
Mr. JENNER. There was just one letter. I think, if you please, you have reference to a telegram, which is Exhibit No. 293.
Mr. DULLES a That is it-the telegram.
Mr. JENNER. Being a telegram dated 14 June 1962.
Mr. DULLES. And these other exhibits cover what period?
Mr. JENNER. They commence--the first, Commission Exhibit No. 295, is a letter of eight pages dated November 26, 1959, and concluding with Exhibit No. 322, a letter of two pages dated March 16, 1963.
Mr. DULLES. Were those all from Russia?
Mr. JENNER. They were all from Russia, save the letter dated March 17, 1963, being Exhibit No. 322, a letter of two pages. All the others are from Russia.
Mr. DULLES. Where was that letter from--do you recall?
Mr. JENNER. It is postmarked-the envelope "Lee H. Oswald, P.O. Box 2915, Dallas, Texas"
And the cancellation stamp likewise says Dallas, Texas.
The date is that which 1 have already recited.
Mr. DULLES. That was after Lee Harvey 's return from the Soviet Union?
Mr. JENNER. Yes, he returned in June of 1962.
Mr. DULLES. And that letter is dated what?
Mr. JENNER. March 17, 1963.
Would you follow me, Mr. Oswald? In each instance, when we compared the letters and the envelopes, it is a fact, is it not, Mr. Oswald, that the letter in question was contained in the envelope of which we have a photostatic copy-and was received by you intact? That is, the envelope was sealed, and the letter content was in the envelope, that you personally opened the envelope and removed the letter content? That in each instance, the letter content is in the handwriting of your brother, Lee Harvey Oswald, entirely, with the exception of Commission Exhibit 299, which is a letter of three pages dated May 31, 1961, upon the last page of which there is a paragraph in the handwriting of Marina Oswald, written in the Russian language?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I take that to be Mrs. Marina Oswald's writing at that time.
Mr. JENNER. And there appears on that page following that paragraph written in Russian what purports to be an English interpretation of it?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Furthermore, that in each instance the envelope and the letter content is--are in the same condition now as they were when you received them?
Mr. McKENZIE Except for opening.
Mr. JENNER. Except for the opening of the envelope which was necessary for you to do in order to remove the content. Is my statement correct?
Mr. OSWALD. With this exception, sir. That a number of the letters were not opened by me personally. By that, I mean my wife opened them when she received the mail at the house.
I have marked the chronological date on the front of them in the last few days.
Mr. JENNER. So that there appears on these exhibits in your handwriting a date on the envelope and in some instances on the letter content?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Which you wrote thereon, and which was not on either the envelope or the letter at the time it was received by you?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Those exhibit numbers excuse me. There are three postcards Commission Exhibit No. 310, dated December 11, 1961, which is a Christmas card, Commission Exhibit 319, which is a postcard dated October 10, 1962, and Commission Exhibit 321, a postcard dated April 10, 1962. Each of those was received by you in due course, Mr. Oswald, as you related to me yesterday.
I want you to confirm this. And is in the handwriting of your brother, Lee Harvey Oswald.
And except for notations of dates which appear thereon or may appear thereon
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in your handwriting, they are in the same condition now as when you received them?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Now, I wish you would-I want to exhibit to you the postcard dated April 10, 1962, which is Commission Exhibit No. 321.
Mr. DULLES. As I understand it, these letters have not yet been formally introduced in evidence.
Mr. JENNER. They have not, sir.
Mr. DULLES. Very well.
I might add, Mr. McKenzie, that, of course, one does not know whether those letters were opened by the authorities in the Soviet Union before being forwarded. I think that ought to be on the record.
Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Commission Exhibit No. 321 I now hand you, Mr. Oswald. There is a date appearing thereon which reads, according to my interpretation 10--and then I cannot quite decipher it.
Would you look at the original, please?
Mr. DULLES. The European system of marking is different from the American. system.
Mr. JENNER. That is what I seek to bring out, sir. Do you now have the original before you?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Would you read the figures to which I point? The first is 10?
Mr. OSWALD. 10/4/62.
Mr. JENNER. Indicating what date?
Mr. OSWALD. April 10, 1962, in accordance with the European system of dating.
Mr. JENNER. Of putting the day first, the month second, and the year last?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. DULLES. Do you recall whether these letters were opened by cutting or opened by unsealing?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe without exception, sir, looking at the originals, that they were opened by unsealing, rather than cutting.
Mr. DULLES. I was asking because it is sometimes possible, by modern methods, to determine whether a letter has been opened and resealed, and if the letter is cut, that can be done.
If the letter has been torn open where the seal is, you cannot do anything with it. You cannot always do this, but there are certain techniques.
Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Chairman, did you have reference to when Robert opened the letters?
Mr. DULLES. Well, what I had reference to is to whether if the letters were cut and not resealed, then there is a certain possibility of ascertaining whether the letter has been previously opened by a censor, and then resealed. I was just getting at that.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Dulles is interested, I see, in whether the letters had been censored in Russia before they arrived in the United States.
Mr. DULLES. That was my point.
Mr. JENNER. May I inquire of the witness on that subject further?
Mr. McKENZIE. Let me state this for the record. When Robert Oswald or his wife opened the letters, as you
can plainly see from the letters here in front of you, they were either opened by letter opener-a knife or a letter opener, or just torn open.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, it is entirely possible and might even be probable that the Commission would be interested in examining the originals on this subject-that is, to determine through experts as to whether the envelopes had been opened and censored, and the contents censored, before being resealed, if they had been so opened, and dispatched to the United States. And I take it that your inquiry was directed towards that.
Mr. DULLES. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. May I inquire of Mr. McKenzie, in the light of that fact, as to whether these originals of these letters would be available to us so that we may have expert examination of them for that purpose?
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Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir; I will make them available at any time that the Commission so desires.
And I would like further to say, Mr. Chairman, that it is my opinion, based on a reading of these letters--and I feel that Robert Oswald concurs in my opinion here--that many of the letters were censored, because the letters actually have reference to the censor in many instances. And I speak of that-the censor in the Soviet Union.
Mr. DULLES. Yes. I have not yet read the letters.
Mr. JENNER. The photostats that we have of the letters will reveal that to which Mr. McKenzie is now referring. We took the face of each envelope and in most instances of the reverse side of the envelope. And in each instance the front and reverse side of each postcard.
Mr. DULLES. And in each case I believe we will have in our records, will we not, the date when it was mailed and the date of receipt?
Mr. JENNER. To the extent that is revealed by the face and reverse side of the envelope; yes, sir.
Mr. DULLES. Because if you have a case where a letter takes four or five day, longer than another letter, that may mean nothing, or it may mean quite a good deal.
Mr. McKENZIE. In some instances, Mr. Chairman, it took five days to receive a letter from the Soviet Union to Fort Worth, Texas.
Mr. DULLES. That is par for the course, I guess.
Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir.
But I might also add sometimes it takes five days for a letter to get from downtown Dallas to the suburbs in Dallas, Texas.
Mr. JENNER. Now, Mr.----
Mr. OSWALD. Pardon me, sir, if I may, I would like to say something to my attorney.
Mr. JENNER. Surely.
Mr. DULLES. Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. DULLES. Back on the record. Proceed, Mr. Jenner.
Mr. JENNER. Would you turn to the letter of September 10, 1961, please? That is Commission Exhibit 305
Mr. OSWALD. All right, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have it?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. In addition--did anything accompany that letter in the way of photographs?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, there was.
Mr. JENNER. Is a reference made to those photographs in the letter?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; there is.
Mr. JENNER. And do you still have the photographs?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do.
Mr. JENNER. And you have them there before you?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do.
Mr. JENNER. And how many are there, and what do they depict?
Mr. OSWALD. There is a total of three photographs depicting purportedly pictures in Minsk, Russia.
Mr. JENNER. Is there any handwriting on the reverse side of any of these exhibits?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; on two of the three photographs there is.
Mr. JENNER. 1 will mark this Exhibit as Commission Exhibit 304, the next as 304-A and the next as 304-B.
(The documents referred to were marked Commission Exhibits 304 and 304-A and 304-B for identification.)
Mr. JENNER. The witness now has before him a photograph marked Commission Exhibit 304, on the reverse side of which appears some handwriting. Do you recognize that handwriting?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do.
Mr. JENNER. Whose is it?
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Mr. OSWALD. I recognize it to be Lee Harvey Oswald's.
Mr. JENNER. Would you read it?
Mr. OSWALD. "Trade Union Hall on the Main Street."
Mr. JENNER. And on the opposite side on which this handwriting appears is a picture of a public building?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. I turn your attention to the document marked Commission Exhibit No. 304-A. On the reverse side of that does there appear some handwriting?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Whose handwriting is it?
Mr. OSWALD. I recognize that to be Lee Harvey Oswald's.
Mr. JENNER. Would you read it, please?
Mr. OSWALD. "A square in Minsk."
Mr. JENNER. And on the opposite side is also depicted a public building?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Exhibit No. 304-B, does the reverse side of that exhibit contain any handwriting?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, it does not.
Mr. JENNER. The face of the exhibit, however, depicts a plaza with some public buildings?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Would you replace those photographs, please, in the envelope with the original?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Now, would you turn to the letter dated January 30, 1962, being Commission Exhibit No. 314?
Mr. OSWALD. All right, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Were there any contents accompanying this letter in addition to the letter itself?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe it did contain, sir--since there is no reference within the letter itself--
Mr. JENNER. It is your recollection?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it is my recollection that it did contain two photographs.
Mr. JENNER. Is it not a fact, sir, that when you exhibited the original of the letter, the original of the envelope, and removed the contents yesterday afternoon in my presence, that the two photographs to which you now refer were contained in the envelope?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Now, Mr. Liebeler, would you give us those A and B numbers, please?
Mr. LIEBELER. 314-A and B.
(The documents referred to were marked Commission Exhibits 314-A and 314-B, for identification.)
Mr. JENNER. Directing your attention to Commission Exhibit 314-A, that is a photograph, is it not?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Is there handwriting on the reverse side of that photograph?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; there is.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recognize the handwriting?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do.
Mr. JENNER. Whose is it?
Mr. OSWALD. Lee Harvey Oswald's.
Mr. JENNER. What does it say?
Mr. OSWALD. "April 30, 1961. Marina--Lee."
Mr. JENNER. Now, turn to the face of the exhibit, do you recognize the persons depicted in that photograph?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do.
Mr. JENNER. Who are they?
Mr. OSWALD. Left to right, Lee Harvey Oswald and Marina N. Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. And is the exhibit in the same condition it was when you
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removed the exhibit from the envelope upon receipt of the envelope, except for the exhibit number?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Would you turn to the other exhibit, Commission Exhibit No. 314-B?
And does the reverse side of that exhibit contain some handwriting?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it does.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recognize the handwriting?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do.
Mr. JENNER. Whose is it?
Mr. OSWALD. Lee Harvey Oswald's.
Mr. JENNER. What does it say?
Mr. OSWALD. "Marina, wedding day, April 30, 1961."
Mr. JENNER. Would you turn to the face of the exhibit. Do you recognize the person depicted on
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do.
Mr. JENNER. Who is it?
Mr. OSWALD. Marina N. Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. Is that exhibit in the same condition now as it was when you received it and removed it from the envelope in which it was contained, being the letter dated January 30, 1962?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it is.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, I offer in evidence the series of letters which I have identified, and which the witness has confirmed, and the contents, being the now five photographs which have been identified, as Commission Exhibits Nos. 295, being a letter of eight pages, dated November 26, 1959; 296, a letter of one page. we don't have a more accurate date than the summer of 1959; 297, a letter of one page, dated December 17, 1959; 298, a letter of two pages, May 5, 1961; 299, a letter of three pages, dated May 31, 1961.
Mr. McKENZIE. Pardon me, Mr. Jenner, just a second.
The letter that you have referred to as being dated December 17, 1959, does not have a date on it. It's received December 17, 1959?
Mr. JENNER. That is in the witness' handwriting.
Mr. McKENZIE. Yes; in the witness' handwriting.
Mr. JENNER. The letter itself is undated.
Mr. McKENZIE. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. The words "received" and the figures December 17. 1959, are written by you on the letter?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And is that in fact the date it was received here in America by you?
Mr. OSWALD. It was, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Thank you for following me. Mr. McKenzie.
Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, Exhibit 299 is the letter which contains in part the paragraph written in Russian which on its face purports to have been a notation by Marina, which we have already identified.
Exhibit 300 is a letter of two pages, dated June 26, 1961.
Exhibit 301 is a letter of two pages dated July 14, 1961.
Exhibit 302 is a letter of one page dated July 28, 1961.
Exhibit 303 is a letter of-two pages dated August 21, 1961.
Exhibit 305 we have already identified. That is September 10, 1961, the letter of three pages which contain the pictures of the public buildings and plaza Minsk, Russia.
Exhibit 306 is a letter of two pages dated October 22, 1961.
Exhibit 307 is a letter of three pages dated November 20, 1961.
Mr. McKENZIE. Pardon me just a second, Mr. Jenner. Don't you have one dated November 1, 1961?
Mr. JENNER. Yes, it is out of order. I will reach it in due course. I am correct that there is a letter of three pages dated November 20, 1961?
Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Exhibit 308 is a letter of two pages dated November 30, 1961.
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Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Exhibit 309 is a letter of two pages dated November 1, 1961. That is the one to which you have reference.
Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Exhibit 310 is a Christmas card dated December 11, 1961. It is contained in an envelope, I believe.
Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir, it is.
Mr. JENNER. Is my statement correct?
Mr. McKENZIE. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Exhibit 311 is a letter of two pages dated December 14, 1961.
Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Exhibit 312 is a letter of one page dated December 20, 1961.
Mr. McKENZIE. December 20, 1961?
Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir.
Mr. McKENZIE. Three pages?
Mr. JENNER. One page.
Mr. McKENZIE. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Exhibit 313 is a letter of two pages dated January 5, 1962.
Mr. McKENZIE. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. January 5, 1962.
Mr. McKENZIE. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Exhibit 314 is a letter of three pages which we have identified, dated January 30, 1962, and contains the two photographs, one of Marina on the wedding day and then one of both of them on their wedding day. Exhibit 315 is a letter of three pages dated February 15, 1962.
Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Exhibit 316 is a letter of two pages dated March 9, 1962.
Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Exhibit 317 is a letter of two pages, dated April 12, 1962.
Mr. McKENZIE. Again, on the letter of March 9, 1962, the date on that letter is the date written by Robert Oswald the day he received that letter. The letter itself is actually undated. But the envelope is dated by Robert Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. That is correct, Mr. Oswald?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And is the envelope postmarked?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes sir; it is.
Mr. JENNER. And the postmark is----
Mr. OSWALD. March 9, 1962, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Thank you.
Mr. DULLES. That is date of receipt?
Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Exhibit 317 is a letter of two pages dated April 12, 1962.
Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Exhibit 318 is a letter of two pages dated May 22, 1962.
Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Exhibit 319 is the front and reverse side of a postcard dated October 10, 1962.
Mr. McKENZIE. No, sir. April 10, 1962.
Mr. JENNER. That is the postcard the witness--
Mr. McKENZIE. Has previously identified as being in the European tradition of dating.
Mr. JENNER. Exhibit 320 is a letter of one page dated November 11, 1962. Or is that '61? Would you check me on that, please?
Mr. McKENZIE. I don't find that. Is it a letter or a postcard? That is November 11. That should be November 17, 1962. The photocopy did not pick up all of it. And if you would like for us, we will change that to November 17. It should be November 17th.
Mr. JENNER. Would you make that change, please, in ink.
Mr. McKENZIE. That is Exhibit No. 320.
Mr. JENNER. Commission Exhibit No. 320, a letter of one page, the original dated November 17th. What year?
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Mr. McKENZIE. Just November 17th. But the postmark shows it was dated November 18, 1962.
Mr. JENNER. Exhibit No. 321 is a postcard dated April 10, 1962.
Mr. OSWALD. To which you have previously referred.
Mr. JENNER. Have we got a duplication?
Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Are Exhibits 319 and 321 duplicates?
Mr. McKENZIE. I would have to look at the exhibit. I have the original here in front of me.
Mr. JENNER. They are different exhibits.
Mr. McKENZIE. This is Exhibit 321.
The other one is this one you have here, and it is dated October 10, 1962.
Mr. JENNER. All right. To make sure the record is clear, Mr. Chairman-Exhibit No. 319, which is a postcard, is cancelled on its face at Dallas on the 10th day of October 1962, and it reads on the other side, "Dear Robert, for the new address you can write to Box 2915, Dallas, Texas. Also please stop by the house and collect any mail which may have come in before the post office had a chance to change my address to Dallas." And then in the center of the card "Lee", with two X marks. Is that correct?
Mr. McKENZIE. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Now, that is Exhibit 319. Now, Exhibit 321----
Mr. DULLES. Let me see. I would like to straighten that out.
Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. DULLES. Back on the record.
Mr. JENNER. Exhibit No. 321 is the postcard dated April 10, 1962.
Mr. McKENZIE. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. I might say, Mr. Chairman,. I had marked the exhibits correctly.
Mr. McKENZIE. And I concur in that remark.
Mr. JENNER. Exhibit No. 322. is a letter of two pages dated March 17, 1963.
Mr. McKENZIE. Dated March 16, 1963. It is postmarked the 17th, but dated March 16, 1963.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, I offer in evidence as Commission Exhibits, Exhibits 295 through 322, both inclusive, the documents that have been marked with the exhibit numbers so indicated, including the sub- exhibit numbers on the photographs which have been heretofore identified.
Mr. DULLES. They may be received.
(The documents referred to were marked Commission Exhibits 2.95 through 322, inclusive, and received in evidence.)
Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Jenner, if I may, I would like to say something for the purpose of the record.
Robert Oswald has brought these exhibits voluntarily. They are at the Commission's convenience at any time. We do not know whether or not they have been censored in Russia, but we are confident that they were, because some of the letters refer to the censor in Russia.
Mr. JENNER. That will appear, Mr. Chairman, from the photostats of the exhibits as offered in evidence.
Mr. DULLES. Thank you very much, Mr. McKenzie.
Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Now, Mr. McKenzie, among the original postcards and letters which you produced for us is a postcard dated January 13----
Mr. McKENZIE. January 10th.
Mr. JENNER. January 10, 1963. And may I have that, please?
Mr. MCKENZIE. Yes, sir; you may.
Mr. JENNER. That will be marked as Commission Exhibit No. 324.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 324 for identification.)
Mr. JENNER. Does the witness have the original before him?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Examining Commission Exhibit No. 324. which purports to be a postcard, it is in fact a postcard, is it not?
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Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And do you recognize the handwriting on the face and reverse side of that postcard?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes sir, I do.
Mr. JENNER. Whose handwriting is it?
Mr. OSWALD. Lee Harvey Oswald's.
Mr. JENNER. Did you receive that postcard in due course or about the cancellation date appearing on the face of the card?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. JENNER. And that cancellation date is January 13, 1963, is it not?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; that is not correct. It is January 10, 1963.
Mr. JENNER. This photostat makes a 10 look like a 13.
This postcard was written to you, sent to you by your brother, Lee Harvey Oswald, thanking you for a Christmas gift, was it not?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And is the postcard in the same condition now as it was when you received it?
Mr. OSWALD. Exactly, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, I offer in evidence as Commission Exhibit No. 324 the document which we have so marked.
Mr. DULLES. It may be received.
(The document heretofore marked for identification as Commission Exhibit No. 324 was received in evidence.)
Mr. JENNER. We will return, Mr. Oswald, to the period about which inquiries were made of you by Representative Ford and Representative Boggs yesterday. That is, you had testified, as you will recall, of efforts on the part of your mother to reach your brother by telephone in Russia when news reached America of his alleged defection. I am merely seeking to orient you at the moment----
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. Thank you.
Mr. JENNER. In due course, you received a letter communication from him, did you not?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. JENNER. Including the letter of November 8, 1959, about which I questioned you yesterday.
Now, I wish to proceed to the next letter, which is the letter of November 26, 1959, a rather long letter.
As a matter of fact, it consists of eight pages.
Would you get that letter before you, please?
Mr. OSWALD. All right, sir.
I have the letter before me now, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Now, you will note from the letter that it purports to be, and from its contents it is indicated that your brother Lee is responding to correspondence that he had in turn received from you.
I ask you this question first.
As to all of these letters which you have now identified this morning, or substantially all of them, had you been in correspondence with your brother in the sense that you also wrote him?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Did you by any chance happen to retain a copy of, or copies of any of the letters you sent him?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not.
Mr. JENNER. So that at the moment we would have to call solely on your recollection as to what you might have written during this period of time while he was in Russia?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. DULLES. You made no copies of the letters yourself when you sent them-you just sent an original? There was no copy?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, no copies were made.
Mr. JENNER. I suggested that you might, during the evening, read the letter of November 26th so as to refresh your recollection as to whether you had written him posing questions to which he responded. Have you had that opportunity?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not had that opportunity to read this letter.
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Mr. JENNER. I would prefer to pass this letter, then, Mr. Chairman, until the witness does have an opportunity to read it. Would you try and do so at your first opportunity?
Mr. OSWALD. All right, sir.
Mr. McKENZIE. It won't take but a minute here to do it.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. DULLES. We will recess for lunch at this time.
(Whereupon, at 12:15 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)
Afternoon Session
TESTIMONY OF ROBERT EDWARD LEE OSWALD RESUMED
The President's Commission reconvened at 1:15 p.m.
Mr. DULLES. You may proceed, Mr. Jenner.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Oswald, I have asked you-may I inquire of you whether during the noon hour recess you have read Commission Exhibit 295, which is a letter of November 26, 1959, from your brother to you?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have.
Mr. JENNER. And have you also read the letter that preceded that one, to wit, the letter of November 8, 1959, which is to you from your brother, which is Commission Exhibit No. 294?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have.
Mr. JENNER. Now, Mr. Chairman, the letter of November 8, which is the earlier of these two letters-this was written by Lee Harvey Oswald shortly after he arrived in Moscow in 1959. In substance, he said in the letter that he supposed his brother Robert, the witness here, did not wish to speak of his decision, that is, of Lee Harvey Oswald's decision to remain in the Soviet Union and apply for citizenship there, since Robert would not be able and now I quote "to comprehend my reasons"--that is Lee Harvey Oswald's reasons. "You really don't know anything about me. Do you know for instance, that I have wanted to do this for well over a year? Do you know that I speak a fair amount of Russian, which I have been studying for months?"
The letter also said that he would not leave the Soviet Union under any conditions, and would never return to the United States, "which is a country I hate." He made reference to the fact that he received a telegram from Robert in which Robert had apparently said that he thought Lee "was making a mistake."
Now, directing your attention to the November 8 letter first, would you please state your reaction when you read that letter?
(At this point the letters of November 8, 1959 and November 26, 1959 were physically set forth in the transcript of testimony In order to achieve consistency in the handling of the exhibits upon the printing of the testimony, those letters are not reproduced in the printed transcript. They are reproduced in the exhibit section as Commission Exhibits Nos. 294 and 295.)
Mr. OSWALD. I recall my reactions to this letter, sir. It was something I more or less expected in general, since this was, more or less in general what the newspapers had been publishing.
Mr. JENNER. Is that the only reason you make that remark-that you had expected it in general solely because of what you read in the newspapers, or had there been any other factor that led you to have that expectation?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; there was no other factor that led be to believe that anything like this was going to happen prior to the happening. My reaction to the letter, as I have stated, was solely in general expecting from what I read in the newspaper that the letter would be something of this nature when I did hear from him.
Mr. JENNER. Had you had any conversation prior thereto during your lifetime
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and that of your brother Lee in which he expressed his views of the character that he wrote in this letter of November 8, 1959?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I most certainly did not.
Mr. JENNER. Had you ever discussed with him, in any conversation between you and your brother Lee, with or without your brother John present or your mother, in which his feeling toward or reaction to the government of the United States had been discussed?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; at no time, as I stated yesterday, have we ever discussed politics, and most assuredly I did not have any inclination in any degree that anything of this nature was in his mind.
Mr. JENNER. So the views expressed by your brother in the letter of November 8 came to you as a complete surprise?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; with the qualification that this is what I expected after reading the newspapers.
Mr. DULLES. May I ask one question there.
When your brother left, after that short stay following his service in the Marine Corps, did you know that he was going to Russia-did he say anything to you about going to Russia at that time?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he did not.
Mr. JENNER. What did he say to you as to his plans?
Mr. OSWALD. That he was going to New Orleans, Louisiana, to visit my Aunt Lillian.
Mr. JENNER. Your Aunt Lillian whom?
Mr. OSWALD. Murret.
Mr. JENNER. The family you identified yesterday-the Murret branch of your family?
Mr. OSWALD. I don't recall identifying them.
Mr. JENNER. There was one occasion yesterday.
Mr. OSWALD. All right. Yes, sir; that is correct. And that he was-
Mr. JENNER. That is an Aunt on which side your father's or mother's?
Mr. OSWALD. My mother's side. And that he was going to visit with them, and at the same time find a job in New Orleans, and make his home in New Orleans, Louisiana.
Mr. JENNER. Did he give you any indication at any time during his stay--this was in Fort Worth?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. During his stay in Fort Worth, upon his return and discharge from the service, and while he was there, that gave you any indication whatsoever of any intention on his part to leave the country?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; none whatsoever.
Mr. JENNER. Whether he was going to go to Europe, Russia, or anywhere else?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. The only information he gave me was that he was going only to New Orleans, Louisiana, from Fort Worth, Texas.
Mr. JENNER. Did you spend a good deal of time with him while he was in Fort Worth, Texas, in this interim period?
Mr. OSWALD. Approximately one day out of the two or three days he was there.
Mr. JENNER. Are you suggesting that most of your contact with him during this period was on one of those days, or that the total amount of time that you spent with him during that period aggregated one day?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe, sir, that I at least talked to him on the telephone on one day, and then the next day he spent the day at our home.
Mr. JENNER. And that is the day that you went off hunting, which you testified about yesterday?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And never during any of the contact that you had with him did he imply or state directly that he had any contemplation of a trip which would take him out of the United States?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. DULLES. You didn't know about his having applied for a new passport?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not know he applied for any passport.
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Mr. JENNER. During the day that he visited you, did your mother visit at your home on that day?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; she did not.
Mr. JENNER. At any time during the period between his discharge from the Marines and his arrival in Fort Worth, and his departure, was there any occasion on which both you, your mother, and your brother Lee were together?
Mr. OSWALD. None that I recall, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion between you at any time during that period of the reason, if any special reason, for his discharge from the Marine Corps, earlier than he might have been discharged in normal course, which as I understand would have been in December of that year?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe, sir, we had a brief discussion on that.
Mr. JENNER. Who initiated it?
Mr. OSWALD. I feel certain like I did.
Mr. JENNER. And what did you do? Ask him-just tell us what you asked him. And why you were curious, if you were.
Mr. OSWALD. To the best of my memory, I asked him-because I was aware of his approximate date of discharge, his regular date of discharge, or release from the service, and I asked him why he was discharged or released earlier than that date. And his reply was that mother had written the Red Cross and requested that he be released earlier.
Mr. JENNER. Written the Red Cross?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. I also----
Mr. JENNER. Did he say why she had written requesting that he be released earlier?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, not to my recollection.
Mr. JENNER. He just said mother had written the Red Cross asking that he be released earlier.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. That is all he said?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. He didn't elaborate on that?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And you didn't inquire of him beyond that?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not.
Mr. JENNER. When had you last seen your mother prior to this occasion?
Mr. OSWALD. May I have his release date, please?
Mr. LIEBELER. September 11, 1959.
Mr. OSWALD. I would say approximately three or four months earlier.
Mr. JENNER. Three or four months. That would be sometime in May?
Mr. OSWALD. Approximately, yes sir.
Mr. JENNER. 1959?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Had you talked with her in the interim period?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I had.
Mr. JENNER. How long prior to his return to Fort Worth on September 11 or 12, 1959, had you talked to her?
Mr. OSWALD. I do not remember, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Well, could you give us an estimate, that is in terms of whether it was weeks or several months?
Mr. OSWALD. 1 can give an estimate of several months.
Mr. JENNER. Several months?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Your mother was then residing in Fort Worth, was she not?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. DULLES. Was she hospitalized at this period?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, she was not. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. JENNER. Were you aware of her state of well being?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. During the four month period?
Mr. OSWALD. Sir? During the four month period?
Mr. JENNER. You say for three to four months prior to September 11, you
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had not seen your mother, that for several months prior to that you had not talked with her.
I take it from that that you were not aware of her well being, whether she was in good health, poor health, or otherwise?
Mr. OSWALD. During the approximate date of three or four months prior to Lee's release from the service, I was aware that she did have an accident at her place of employment there in Fort Worth, at which time, if memory serves me correct, something fell on her, on her face, and injured her nose.
I was aware from conversations with her at that time that she was consulting or going to various doctors. And she told me at that time
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. Having reached that point--is that how you first discovered that your mother had suffered an accident? You say she told you.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And I take it, then, that you had not talked with her for several months prior to September 11 nor seen her before sometime, or later than sometime in April of 1959, that this telephone conversation must have taken place several months prior to September 11. Am I correct about that?
Mr. OSWALD. It was not a telephone conversation, sir.
Mr. JENNER. You saw her?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. In the month of April '59?
Mr. OSWALD. Approximately that date.
Mr. JENNER. And did you visit her, or did she visit you?
Mr. OSWALD. I saw her at her place of employment.
Mr. JENNER. And how did that come about?
Mr. OSWALD. I do not remember, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Would it refresh your recollection if I recited some possibilities--that she called you and asked you to come to see her, that you desired to inquire of her, see if she was all right, or was it that you just happened to be in the downtown Fort Worth area, and you stopped by to see her, knowing where she was employed?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe the latter would possibly be more accurate.
Mr. JENNER. Is that your best recollection at the moment?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. She was not employed at that time at the downtown area of Fort Worth, but rather at a suburb store, Cox's Department Store.
Mr. JENNER. This is a shoe store?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, this is just a large department store, from wearing apparel to toys, a full line store.
Mr. JENNER. How did you become aware she was employed there?
Mr. OSWALD. I do not remember, sir.
Mr. JENNER. How long--did you know then how long she had been employed at Cox's Department Store?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not.
Mr. JENNER. How did you become aware of the fact she was so employed?
Mr. OSWALD. I do not remember, sir.
Mr. JENNER. You have no recollection?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I do not.
Mr. DULLES. About how long was this after the accident, or was it after the accident?
Mr. OSWALD. My recollection of that, sir-this was shortly after the accident. She was still employed there, even though I understand from our conversation that day that she had been off for a while I don't know how long a period-and that she was still employed there. Because this is where I did see her, at her counter in this department store.
Mr. JENNER. On this occasion, when you stopped by to see her, she related to you an accident she had suffered--that was the first news you had of it?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. You had not known she was ill or what her state of well being was prior to that time?
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Mr. OSWALD. None that I remember, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Where is the Cox's Department Store located with respect to your place of business? I am seeking now distance, and the convenience of getting there.
Mr. OSWALD. From my place of business at that time in Fort Worth this was approximately four or five miles west. I might further state, sir, it was approximately two miles from my home.
Mr. JENNER. Did you come from your home to her place of business or from work to her place of business?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe I went from home to her place of business.
Mr. JENNER. Was this a week day, a working day?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I don't believe it was.
Mr. JENNER. That is not for you. Was it for her?
Mr. OSWALD. It was for her, sir, not for me.
Mr. JENNER. I take it, then, it was a Saturday.
Mr. OSWALD. I would believe that would be correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And has this discussion served to refresh your recollection or stimulate your recollection now as to why you went by to see her?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it has not.
Mr. JENNER. May I ask you this, sir?
When had you last seen your mother prior to this occasion that you visited her?
Mr. OSWALD. I do not remember, sir. I would say, as we said before, several months.
Mr. JENNER. All right. That would be several more months. back into the winter time of 1959?
Mr. OSWALD. '58, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Yes--'58.
Well, would it be back in the winter of '58, say January? Or could it have been?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, not that long. We are talking, if I am correct, sir, approximately April of 1959.
January of 1958 would be well over a year. It had not been that long.
Mr. JENNER. Well, then--I had said January '59, and you said several months.
Now, several months prior to April of 1959, would be or might be as far back as January of 1959, am I not correct?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, it could be that far.
Mr. JENNER. And your present recollection is that it might have been that much of a period of time sometime in January, 1959, to this occasion in April of 1959 when you had-you visited her at Cox's Department Store?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; or possibly even longer.
Mr. JENNER. Possibly even longer than that. Back into 1958.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Could you give me your best recollection at the moment as to the last time you saw your mother in the year 1958?
Mr. OSWALD. I cannot recall any specific time during the year of 1958 that I did see her.
Mr. JENNER. Would it be if at all quite infrequent?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, quite infrequent.
Mr. JENNER. This leads me to put this general question to you, Mr. Oswald.
I take it that for some period of time in that area of time that is '58, '59, and perhaps even back of that-your contact with your mother was quite limited?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Over what period of time did that persist? Give us the broad picture first.
Mr. OSWALD. I would say, sir, quite frankly that the original occurred prior to my joining the Marine Corps in 1952.
Mr. JENNER. And persisted thereafter?
Mr. OSWALD. Persisted thereafter that 1 saw her only very infrequently.
Mr. JENNER. Did your joining the Marine Corps-was that stimulated in any respect by your relations with your mother, or your mother's with you?
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Mr. OSWALD. Partly, sir; it was.
Mr. JENNER. Would you state that, please?
Mr. OSWALD. At the end of the school year of 1952, which was approximately May 29, 1952----
Mr. JENNER. You were then 17 years old, is that correct?
Mr. OSWALD. 18 years old. I, of course, was still living at home. In approximately the middle part of June 1962 a friend of mine in Fort Worth and I decided to take a hitch-hiking trip to Florida. We left Fort Worth in the middle of June, 1962, and we--
Mr. DULLES. '52?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. In June of 1952 we left Fort Worth and traveled I believed as far as Gulfport, Mississippi. And this friend I was with-he did have a defect from birth on one foot that was starting to bother him. And we decided it was best to return to Fort Worth, by a different route than we originally left Fort Worth. We went from Fort Worth to Shreveport, New Orleans, and Gulfport, Mississippi.
Our return was Gulfport, Mississippi, New Orleans, Houston, Big Springs, Tex., and Fort Worth, Tex. At that time I stayed at his home, with his mother and himself.
Mr. JENNER. Why?
Mr. OSWALD. Because mother and I was having a disagreement.
Mr. JENNER. About what?
Mr. OSWALD. About whether or not I was old enough to start my own life generally.
Mr. JENNER. That is whether you would depart the family home and live on your own?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, and generally whether or not I had the right to start my own life in the manner that I wanted to.
Mr. JENNER. Were you unhappy with the manner and fashion of life that you had led up to that moment?
Mr. OSWALD. Not in the manner or fashion, sir. I objected quite strongly to the apparent efforts of our mother to control me completely in all respects.
Mr. JENNER. Did that condition or relationship exist with respect to your brother, John Pic?
Mr. OSWALD. I would say generally it would, sir.
Mr. JENNER. It did rather than it would?
Mr. OSWALD. That it did, yes, sir-thank you.
Mr. JENNER. And was that a factor in his enlisting in the Coast Guard?
Mr. OSWALD. It is not to my knowledge that it was.
Mr. JENNER. I take it you and John, then, had had, if I may use my own expression, difficulties in your relationships with your mother, particularly with reference to what you gentlemen thought as you reached age 18, as the right to be independent and lead your own lives?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. DULLES. Do you think that your brother, Lee Oswald, had the same feeling, that may have affected his joining the Marines?
Mr. OSWALD. Based on my own personal experience, sir, I would reach that conclusion.
Mr. DULLES. You would?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I would.
Mr. DULLES. Thank you.
Did your mother know about this hitch-hiking trip, or did you just go off on the trip?
Mr. OSWALD. I just went off on the trip, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Without advising her?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Did you get in touch with her upon your return to Fort Worth?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. I would say this. I did attempt to call her before I left Fort Worth on this trip, and there was no answer at home.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, what led us back along this trail was the conversation you had with your brother Lee when he was discharged from the Marines
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on September 11, 1959, and his statement to you that he had an early discharge because your mother had written a letter to the Red Cross.
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And then you saw her in April, and that was the last time you saw her prior to seeing your brother on his discharge from the Marines?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Now----
Mr. DULLES. Could I ask one question there.
Do you know whether your brother stimulated this letter from your mother with regard to early discharge, or do you think she did this on her own, or don't you know?
Mr. OSWALD. It is my understanding, sir, that she had originated the request to the Red Cross.
Mr. JENNER. And that understanding is based on what?
Mr. OSWALD. Just a general feeling that I had at that time.
Mr. JENNER. Was it induced also by discovering from your brother that your mother had written a letter to the Red Cross?
Mr. OSWALD. I am sure it was, sir. And I might add I pointed out to Lee why did you accept this early discharge, since he only had a few months more, I believe it was, to go. Because it had been my experience in the service that when I ran across somebody who, for one reason or another, was going to get out a little bit early, I understood that they perhaps were subject to recall for that period at a later date, or something along that line. And I thought it was unwise.
Mr. JENNER. Is this what you said to him?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. I pointed out--I felt like since it was to be under the regular enlistment period very shortly thereafter, I believe September 11, 1959, that it would have been the wise thing to stay in.
Mr. JENNER. What did he say to that?
Mr. OSWALD. I do not recall, sir.
Mr. JENNER. You were living in Fort Worth, married, and still you were having substantially little contact with your mother, is that correct?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Would you explain to the Commission the reasons for that, the conditions which brought that about?
Mr. OSWALD. After my marriage to Vada M. Oswald, my mother on a number of occasions--I say a number perhaps three or four occasions--made it quite difficult for my wife and myself when we were in her presence at her apartment there in Fort Worth.
Mr. JENNER. Now, please, Mr. Oswald--when you say your mother made it quite difficult, give us some examples. What do you mean by "made it quite difficult"?
Mr. OSWALD. Generally, sir, it was the continuation that, even though I was married and apparently able to take care of myself and start my own family, she certainly wanted to--my mother certainly wanted to--still control my thinking, my actions, and my wife's actions.
Mr. JENNER. Can you give us one specific example?
Mr. OSWALD. Sir, I cannot recall any specific examples.
Mr. JENNER. Indicate the nature of those incidents.
Mr. DULLES. Had she objected to your marriage?
Mr. OSWALD. I don't believe she did, sir. At least I do not recall any time that she ever stated that, any objections to my marriage.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have the feeling that she objected?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, to some extent I did.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have a conversation with her about your becoming married before you became married?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I did.
Mr. JENNER. And did she--what views did she express in that connection?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe, sir, that would be generally that I was leaving her alone, that both Lee and John at this time were in the service, and she would be alone, and that she would like for me to live with her, that I would stay with her.
Mr. JENNER. When was your marriage again, please?
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Mr. OSWALD. I have never stated it before, sir. It was in November--November 20 or 21, 1956.
Mr. McKENZIE. Off the record
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. JENNER. The question has been asked of you as to the date of your marriage.
Mr. OSWALD. This was in November 1956, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Had you been courting your present wife prior to that time?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Was your mother acquainted with her?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes sir; she was.
Mr. JENNER. Did she--did her objections to your marriage, in addition to those you stated--were there any personalities in the sense of her objecting to your fiance?
Mr. OSWALD. None that I recall, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have any feeling that there was any personality in the sense of objection on her part, or lack of approval of your fiance?
Mr. OSWALD. If I might say, sir, I feel sure there was, and in my mind right now--I can think of really no one that she ever approved of to the extent of my friends, either boys or girls.
Mr. JENNER. Was that also true of your brother, John Pic? And I will also ask you about Lee Harvey.
Mr. OSWALD. John very seldom, if memory serves me correct, ever brought any of his friends over to the house, to meet mother.
Mr. JENNER. Presented them to mother, you mean?
Mr. OSWALD. Presented them to mother.
Mr. JENNER. Was that his choice?
Mr. OSWALD. I would say so now that I believe it would have been his choice.
Mr. JENNER. He preferred not to?
Mr. OSWALD. This would be my assumption, that he preferred not to.
Mr. JENNER. Not presenting his friends to your mother?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes sir; that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Would you answer the same question as to Lee, as to whether he brought his friends to your home?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I believe he did. He quite frequently played around the house with friends there in the neighborhood.
Mr. JENNER. They were children, however, in the immediate neighborhood?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. He is five years younger than you.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. He would have been 13 in 1952, this period we are talking about.
Mr. JENNER. We are interested in this matter of the antipathy existing between you and John on the one hand and your mother on the other. Had that gone on for sometime? In order that I don't violate the same thing that I raise with you occasionally, let me take you back to the military school days, or to Bethlehem Orphanage. Did a measure of antipathy exist at that time?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I don't believe it did.
Mr. JENNER. When did it really arise in any marked degree?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe after her divorce from Mr. Ekdahl.
Mr. JENNER. That was in June 1948.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. And from the time that we moved to the Young Street address in Fort Worth.
Mr. JENNER. At or about that time?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Would you refresh my recollection as to when that was? Was that in 1948?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it was.
Mr. JENNER. Would you please indicate how that antipathy or that change was evident? What change of attitude was there, either on the part of you boys, or on her part, or on the part of all of you?
Mr. OSWALD. Perhaps, sir, for the first time in any period, all of us were together. And perhaps, sir--I say perhaps this would be correct--she did not
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know myself and my older brother John at that particular time to any extent.
Mr. JENNER. You had been away at school pretty much?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. But you had been home for three months in the summertime?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. But still, searching my own mind, I certainly felt this way at that time. And John and I were not accustomed to her. Certainly I cannot speak for John. But for myself, on that point, I would say we were not accustomed to her. We had become--there again I say we--John and I--I feel like I certainly had become more disciplined and used to being disciplined by men, and not used to having a woman around the house. I believe this was perhaps my feeling at that time.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, if we can return to the events of April 1959, did your mother appear to you to have been injured?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; she did.
Mr. JENNER. What evidence was there of her injury?
Mr. OSWALD. There appeared to be a little swelling in the upper part of the nose.
Mr. JENNER. Any scratch or other skin break?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; none that I recall.
Mr. JENNER. Did you form an opinion at that time as to whether her injury was major or minor?
Mr. OSWALD. I asked her about it, or she volunteered the information of how the accident occurred, and that she had been seeing doctors, and so forth. And I did recall her stating to me that she had been to either two or three doctors, and none of them had said anything was wrong with her, and then she was insisting that there was definitely something wrong, and she was continuing to see other doctors.
Mr. JENNER. Had that sort of thing occurred prior thereto, in which your mother felt that she was ill and she went to physicians, and the physicians indicated otherwise?
Mr. OSWALD. Not to my knowledge, sir.
Mr. JENNER. She was not chronic in that respect?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, not to my knowledge.
Mr. DULLES. Was she hospitalized at any time in connection with this injury?
Mr. OSWALD. Not to my knowledge, sir.
Mr. DULLES. Did she have to give up her work for a period of time, or did she continue working?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe she did miss a short period of time when the accident occurred.
Mr. DULLES. Thank you.
Mr. JENNER. But she was at work on the day you visited her?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Were you forewarned that your brother was returning from the service earlier than he was scheduled to return?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I don't believe I was.
Mr. JENNER. Were you forewarned that he was returning at all at this particular time--that is, on or about the 11th of September, 1959?
Mr. OSWALD. If I may take a moment, please, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir.
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I was not aware that he was being released from the service earlier.
Mr. JENNER. Had you received any communication from him prior to his return--that is a communication that was reasonably near the time of his return?
Mr. OSWALD. The only one that I have a record of, sir, is a letter dated--postmarked June 6, 1959, at Santa Ana, California, addressed to me at my Fort Worth address of 7313 Davenport, return address, Pfc. L. H. Oswald, Santa Ana, California. The letter itself is undated.
Mr. JENNER. You have made reference, Mr. Oswald, to a letter you received in an envelope postmarked June 6, 1959, from your brother. You have the original of that letter before you?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do.
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Mr. JENNER. Now, that letter--did you receive in addition to this letter until September 11, 1959, any other letter from your brother?
Mr. OSWALD. Not that I can recall, sir, or that I have record of.
Mr. JENNER. Now, this letter in the third paragraph reads, "Well, pretty soon I will be getting outer the Corps, and I know what I want to be and how I am going to be it, which I guess is the most important thing in my life"-"in life." Have I read it correctly?
Mr. OSWALD. You have, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did you respond to that letter?
Mr. OSWALD. Not to my recollection did I respond to the letter, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Now, when your brother was mustered out, on or about September 11, 1959, did you have a discussion with him with respect to this subject matter--that is what he wanted to be in life, and how he was going to go about it?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not-to this extent. He did, of course, indicate to me that he wanted to go to New Orleans, Louisiana, and live and find a job there, and he did not indicate what type of job or what type of work he wanted to do.
Mr. JENNER. For the purpose of the record, Mr. Chairman, this letter has been identified and is in evidence as Commission Exhibit No. 296.
How did you learn that your brother was in Fort Worth, upon his being mustered out of the Marines?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe, sir, he called me on arrival at Fort Worth.
Mr. JENNER. That was the first notice or knowledge that you had that he had been discharged?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Is that correct?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And his call to you was the first notice or knowledge you had that he was in Fort Worth?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. It necessarily follows, and I take it it is a fact, that your mother had not called you to advise you that he was being discharged or would be discharged at or about that time?
Mr. OSWALD. Not that I can remember, sir.
Mr. DULLES. Might I ask you at this point whether your brother ever talked to you about his experience in the Marines. Did he tell you anything about that, give you any incidents? I think you only had one day--that would have taken place on that one day, between the three or four days between his return and going off again.
Mr. JENNER. Or may I add, Mr. Chairman, any correspondence he had in the Marines, and any leaves.
Mr. DULLES. We have no letters, have we, from the witness?
Mr. JENNER. No, but I thought there might possibly be some.
Mr. DULLES. I don't want to interrupt, but it seemed to me to fit in at this particular point.
Mr. OSWALD. I do not recall, other than general discussion, about the Marine Corps. I recall-and I believe this was on his leave in 1958, when we discussed this-I had asked him did he know any of my drill instructors, and I at the time recalled a senior drilling instructor at Camp Pendleton, by the name of Sgt. Cobie. And he stated he did not, However, he did run across, while he was in boot camp, some other drill instructor, but he could not recall his name, who stated he recalled me, or asked him one day did he have a brother that had been in the Marine Corps a few years before. He said yes, he had. And apparently this man did remember me, because he asked was I the right guide in that platoon. And my brother Lee did not know that I was. I do recall that conversation.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have any other conversation with him or any correspondence from him in which the subject matter of his career in the Marines was discussed, or to which allusion was made?
Mr. OSWALD. I certainly received other letters during the course of his enlistment in the United States Marine Corps. I do not recall any specific instance
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that reflected what his opinion was of the Marine Corps, nor that at any time I remember did he refer to any happenings or incidents while he was in the Marine Corps that perhaps might upset him, or might have made him happy.
Mr. JENNER. Nothing either way?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Completely bland in that respect?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. DULLES. Do you recall whether any of those letters are available now? Do you have those letters?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I believe I do not have those. I say I believe I do not. I have looked for just everything that I could possibly find on Lee's life, and letters and so forth, and I have not run across any others.
Mr. JENNER. I was about to ask you that. You have made a thorough search?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have.
Mr. DULLES. If you should find them, you will make them available to us, will you not?
Mr. OSWALD. Certainly, sir.
Mr. DULLES. Thank you.
Just one more question on that, if I may. I would gather that the correspondence you had during his stay in Russia was more voluminous than while he was in the Marine Corps, from what you tell me.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it certainly was. There was certainly a larger flow of letters from him, and from me to him, at this time than there was during his stay in the United States Marine Corps.
Mr. DULLES. Thank you.
Mr. JENNER. So while he was in Russia, he wrote you considerably more often, at least after the first year, I guess it was, or nine months, than he had theretofore?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. If I might there again refer to the letters from Russia received from Lee Harvey Oswald and placed in evidence before this Commission, when he notified us in 1959 that he was no longer going to write or contact us, and did not want us to contact him in any way, it was until April of 1961 before I heard from him again, which was, of course, a period of time after one year.
Mr. JENNER. Had you written him in the meantime?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. JENNER. Did you know where he was in the meantime that is, any particular town or city in Russia?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. DULLES. And you had the impression that he did not want you to write to him at that time?
Mr. MCKENZIE. Mr. Dulles, he says that in the letters.
Mr. JENNER. Yes-one of these letters I am about to examine him about so states.
That is correct, is it not?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. I take it, then, however, that in contrast, commencing with the letter in 1961, April I believe you said it was-- from that time forward, there was, by comparison, a considerable number of letters, and a larger volume of correspondence than you had ever had from your brother?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, there was a continuous flow. Realizing the period that it would take to make a complete cycle of the exchange of one letter to another, of approximately two weeks--the letters were quite regular.
Mr. JENNER. And this had not been the pattern even in prior years.
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir: it has not.
Mr. JENNER. When he was in the Marine Corps, or when you were in the Marine Corps?
Mr. OSWALD. No. sir; it was not.
Mr. JENNER. Confirmatory of that, Mr. Oswald, I note in Commission Exhibit No. 296, is the last paragraph which reads, "I know I haven't written in a long time. Please excuse me. Well, there really isn't too much news here. But I would like to hear from you and the family. Write soon. Your brother, Lee".
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I take it from that that there had been-this was the first communication you had had from him, as he says, in a long time.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Does your memory serve you sufficiently now to define more clearly the period to which he refers as "a long time"?
Mr. OSWALD. I would say in between the leave in 1958, and his letter received, postmarked in June 1959, I would not have received over two or three letters.
Mr. JENNER. His leave in '58 was when, again, please?
Mr. OSWALD. I recall this to be in the early fall of the year-perhaps September.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Directing your attention now back to the letter of November 8, 1959, which is Commission Exhibit 294, I will ask you this: Is this the first letter you received from him from Russia?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Is it the first communication of any kind, at least directly from or initially by him, that you had from him?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. This is, then, the first time you heard from him from the day he departed to go to New Orleans, as he had stated to you, for the purpose of finding employment?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. You testified yesterday that you responded to this letter-that is, Commission Exhibit 294, dated November 8, 1959. Is that correct?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. You were unable to recall particularly well yesterday your letter in response to Commission Exhibit 294. Has the reading of the letter of November 26, 1959, which is Commission Exhibit 295, and your re-reading of the letter of November 8, Commission Exhibit 294, served to refresh your recollection as to the contents of your letter which you wrote in response to Commission Exhibit 294?
Mr. OSWALD. To some degree, sir, it most certainly has.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Would you now, having had your recollection refreshed, relate to us as near as may be, if you are able to do so, your letter in response to your brother's letter, Commission Exhibit 294?
Mr. OSWALD. Which was the letter of November 8--is that correct?
Mr. JENNER. That is correct.
Mr. OSWALD. To the best of my recollection, in my response to his letter, I asked him why he went to Russia, and for what purpose he went to Russia. And I believe, sir, that is to the best of my ability, in the remembrance of my letter, that would be the only two questions that I asked him.
Mr. JENNER. Now, in the letter of November 8, he says, "Do you know, for instance, that I have wanted to do this for well over a year"-that is, go to Russia. I take it from your prior testimony that you had not known, either well over a year or even for an instant, that he had any intention of going to Russia.
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Had the name Albert Schweitzer College ever been mentioned by your brother Lee prior to this time--that is, let us say, prior to the middle of September 1959?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it was not.
Mr. JENNER. He also states in this letter of November 8--makes the rhetorical question-"Do you know that I speak a fair amount of Russian, which I have been studying for many months". Had that subject matter ever come to your attention prior to his uttering it in the letter of November 8?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it had not.
Mr. JENNER. You did not know, up until this time, that your brother had been studying Russian while in the Marines?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. And again if I may elaborate on that, I was not aware that he ever studied any foreign language.
Mr. DULLES. Did your brother ever talk to you about what he was reading during this period?
Mr. JENNER. Or at any time, during his school period?
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Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. Of course, I have seen him read various books. I never did see him read a book- unless the covers-- or perhaps if I picked it up--it didn't indicate anything about communism or socialism. He did like to read. He read quite a bit. And by this, I have observed him to read anything from funny books to novels, to westerns, the full scope. He liked American history. I have seen him read American history a great deal.
Mr. JENNER. Was he a voracious reader? That is, did he read a great deal, devote much attention to reading?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, he was what I would term an assiduous reader.
Mr. JENNER. I am directing your attention to his--oh, say, from age, let's say, nine or ten to the time he enlisted in the Marines-maybe we better go back a little bit more, since you were away. I would like to cover his youth up to the time he enlisted in the Marines. Is that the period of which you speak?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not. I speak of a later period-my visit to New Orleans after I received my discharge from the Marine Corps.
Mr. JENNER. And before he enlisted in the marines?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; before he enlisted in the Marine Corps. And of his moving to Fort Worth.
Mr. JENNER. Fix the time.
Mr. OSWALD. With mother-in 1955.
Mr. JENNER. On these occasions you observed him reading assiduously?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And you had an opportunity, and you embraced it to some extent, just out of curiosity if nothing else, of observing the nature and character of the literature and the subject matter of the literature he was reading?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And it is of the nature and the subject matter you already stated?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. During any of that period, and any observation you ever made whether then or prior thereto, had you noticed him or seen any books-he uses the expression "Marxism", communism--or any books or works, or pamphlets of that nature?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not. I did not at any time observe him reading or have in his possession any type of pamphlet or book, should I say, of a political nature.
Mr. JENNER. Even American politics?
Mr. OSWALD. American politics, of course American history, of course, would go into some degree of American politics.
Mr. JENNER. I think you are probably right. But other than American history.
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not observe him.
Mr. JENNER. Now, your brother states in this letter of November 8, the United States was a country that he hated-Taking the whole letter, we would like to have you state what your reaction to the letter was when you received it and read it, in view of the rather severe things he says, and startling things he says in this letter.
Mr. OSWALD. If I may, sir, refer to my testimony yesterday in relation to this letter, and my reactions then, I thought more along that line. I have not come up with any other conclusions where my thinking as to my reaction at the time I received the letter-- other than it was something that I expected, due to what I had read in the newspapers prior to receiving the letter of November 8, 1959.
Mr. JENNER. Your shock, if 1 may call it such, had been conditioned-
Mr. OSWALD. To some degree it had; yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. In other words, then, the letter, when you did receive it, with these utterances in it, did not surprise you?
Mr. OSWALD. I feel, perhaps, if anything would have surprised me that did not appear, to my recollection, would be the statement "I will never return to the United States, which is a country I hate," particularly the latter part of that statement-"which is a country I hate."
Mr. JENNER. That did shock you despite your having read the newspaper clippings or articles?
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Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I feel certain that it did.
Mr. JENNER. And in your response to your brother's letter, did you advert to that particular portion of his letter? To the best of your recollection?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir-I was just making a note on that. I didn't realize you would ask me that so soon. I do believe I asked him why he hated the United States.
Mr. JENNER. Now, have you given us exhausted your recollection as to the content of the letter you wrote in response to the letter of November 8, Commission Exhibit 294?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I £eel I have.
Mr. JENNER. Well, now, let us turn, if we might, to Letter No. 26, which is Exhibit 295, an eight-page letter.
Mr. OSWALD. All right, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, to summarize this letter, if I may, for you, it is an eight-page letter. Lee Harvey Oswald sets forth in it extensively his philosophies, what they purport to be as of that time, the reasons why he has decided to defect to the Soviet Union.
He complained about the economic system in the United States.
Mr. DULLES. System?
Mr. JENNER. System-which he stated exploited all of its workers.
He complained of segregation and unemployment, and automation in the United States.
He stressed disapproval of American foreign policy, which he characterized as being one of imperialism. In framework, it is framed as a response partly to some questions that our present witness has posed in a letter, which Mr. Robert Oswald had written in response to the letter of November 8, such as a question as to why Lee Harvey Oswald and his fellow workers and communists would like to see the present capitalist system of the United States overthrown-he having made an indication to the witness in that respect.
Apparently in Robert's letter to Lee, he had couched it in terms of suggesting that apparently Lee Harvey Oswald thought he might have some advantage economically if he went to Russia, and Lee Harvey Oswald responded, "So you speak of advantages. Do you think that is why I am here, for personal material advantages? Happiness is not based on one's self, does not consist of a small home, of taking and getting. Happiness is taking part in a struggle where there is no borderline between one's own personal world and the world in general. I never believed I would find more material advantages at this stage of development in the Soviet Union than I might have had in the United States."
Mr. McKENZIE. At this point, Mr. Chairman, I might also add, in connection with what Mr. Jenner has stated about this letter, that the letter appears, in answering questions that Robert may have posed in a previous letter to Lee Harvey Oswald--it appears to have been lifted in some respects out of a communist text, and it even appears to me and this is pure supposition, that it could possibly have been written by someone else with Lee Harvey Oswald coming back in and adding other things to it it is the longest letter received, consisting of some eight pages. A careful reading of the letter will show only one or two misspelled words, whereas in the other letters there are a number of misspelled words.
And I don't know what that adds or detracts from the record. But I do feel that there is a difference in the letters as you read all of them put together.
Mr. DULLES. I am glad you called that to our attention. It is an interesting observation.
Mr. OSWALD. And I would like to, if I may, point out something I observed in between the letter of November 8, 1959, and the letter of November 26, 1959.
In the letter of November 8, 1959, towards the last paragraph on the last page, I quote, "I really don't see what we could talk about. If you want to send me money, that I can use. But I do not expect to be able to pay it back."
I now refer to the letter of November 26, 1959, on the last page, the second last paragraph, "I have no money problems at all"--underlined.
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"My situation was not really as stable then as it is now. I have no troubles at all now along that line."
Mr. McKENZIE. And, furthermore, he had moved from Room 233 in the Metropole Hotel to Room 201 in the Metropole Hotel. And marks on the letter of November 26th, "Note new room number."
Mr. DULLES. Could I get into the record here, just for clarification-when was this written in relation to his arrival in the Soviet Union? Do we have that on the record? Was it a month after? Was it before the other incident that has been described for the record, with regard to----
Mr. OSWALD. If I may, sir; I believe I can answer that.
Mr. JENNER. I didn't want to hazard a guess. If you know, will you please state it?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe Lee, as a matter of record, did arrive in the Soviet Union on October 13, 1959.
Mr. DULLES. Is it written then, roughly, a little less than a month and-a little over a month after his arrival- these two letters referred to?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. I intended to draw your attention to that which you have already mentioned-that is, in the letter of November 8 he indicated that he would be pleased if you would send him some funds, whereas on the last page of the letter of November 26th he advises you that as far as funds are concerned-he is in good shape.
Mr. DULLES. And both of these letters were written, as I recall, before he was advised that he could not stay on in the Soviet Union the first time?
Mr. JENNER. That is correct, sir. They are written before he went to Minsk, as well.
Mr. DULLES. Thank you.
Mr. JENNER. Had you sent him any funds in the interim period?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.
Referring to my testimony yesterday--at which time I replied to his letter of November 8, 1959, on his request for any money that I might send him, I stated to him I would gladly send him the necessary money for his return to the United States, and for that reason only.
I did not enclose any money in my answer.
Mr. JENNER. Now, that is an interesting factor about which I would like to inquire of you; also, as to its implication.
Later, your brother, as the correspondence we have now introduced in evidence discloses, desired to return to the United States. And he was having, according to the correspondence, some problem in raising the necessary funds to return to the United States.
Did he at any time write you requesting that you honor your letter in response to his letter of November 8th in which you said you would gladly send him money to return to the United States?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he did not request it directly. He had certainly indicated, as his letters do indicate, that he was having a little difficulty in raising the necessary funds to return to the United States. And I, in my reply to that letter, volunteered to raise the necessary funds to bring his wife and himself to the United States.
Mr. JENNER. Would you identify the particular letter to which you now refer?
Mr. OSWALD. In reply to your question, sir, I am referring to the letter of February 15, 1962.
Mr. JENNER. Which, for the record, is Commission Exhibit 315.
Did you respond to that letter and offer to advance to him the funds necessary to bring about his return to the United States?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did. And I also included an offer for him to stay with us on his return to the United States, he and his family, for any length of time that they so desired, until he was able to get settled himself.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever receive from him a letter in which he responded directly to your offer to advance funds?
Perhaps I will put it this way. Have you produced all of the letters that you received from him while he was in Russia?
Mr. OSWALD. To my knowledge this is all of the letters I received from him.
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Mr. JENNER. Did you make it a practice during this period to keep, intentionally and deliberately keep, all letters that you received from him?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that was my intention.
Mr. JENNER. To the best of your knowledge you have produced all of those letters to the Commission?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever report to your brother that it would be necessary for you to make a loan on your automobile in order to advance any funds to him?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not.
Mr. JENNER. Including particularly the $200 that you advanced to him when he returned in June of 1962?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not.
Mr. JENNER. Did you become aware at any time prior to November 22, 1963, that he made a representation, to the New York welfare authorities that it would be necessary for you to make a loan on your automobile to advance the $200?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I have not.
Mr. JENNER. There was no discussion of that subject by him with you when he returned to Fort Worth and lived in your home, or thereafter?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. This is the first knowledge I have of such a report.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Now, returning to the letter of November 26--and keeping in mind, also, the letter-let's just stay with the letter of November 26th.
Prior to the time of the receipt of that letter, had your brother Lee ever in your presence uttered thoughts of that nature, or even spoken to you any thoughts of the nature contained in the letter of November 26th with respect to the United States, its economic system, Communist Russia, or countries of that character?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he did not.
Mr. JENNER. And what was your reaction to the letter of November 26, particularly those features of it dealing with his attitudes towards the United States and its political and economic and social system?
Mr. OSWALD. Sir, I remember somewhat vividly my reply to him-my reply to his letter----
Mr. JENNER. You did reply to the letter of November 26th?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Would you please state what your reply was?
Mr. OSWALD. I did reply to the letter of November 26, 1959, and it was-and I believe until this day remains to be the longest letter I ever wrote.
Mr. JENNER. All right-tell us about it.
Mr. OSWALD. I answered all the questions as to-if I may refer to the first question.
"Do you remember the time you told me about the efforts of your milk company to form a union? Try to see why workers must form unions against employers in the United States."
I recall I did reply to that statement.
Mr. JENNER. What did you say?
Mr. OSWALD. It was my opinion-and I am not anti-union or pro-union. I believe it should be taken on the basis of the individual companies. It was my opinion that I expressed to him at that time that in this country, the employees did have a right to vote yes or no Whether or not they wanted a union, and in this particular instance, the union was voted out.
Mr. DULLES. Could we just have a moment's pause?
(Brief recess.)
Mr. DULLES. Will you proceed? Is it all right to proceed?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; please.
Mr. JENNER. You were reciting what you said in your letter of response to the letter of November 26.
Mr. OSWALD. All right, sir, if I may pause a moment to locate the second question or some statement that perhaps I recall referring to directly in my
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reply--I recall replying to the statement that was, that is contained, on the second page of the letter of November 26, to the latter part of this statement that I will quote from: "See the segregation, see the unemployment and what automation is. Remember how you were laid off at Convair?"
I am referring now to the last question of "Remember how you were laid off at Convair?"
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. OSWALD. I believe I pointed out to him at that time that this was something I was aware of when I accepted the job at Convair in Fort Worth, Texas. It was a condition, perhaps an unspoken condition, because it was a government job in that when I was laid off, I did not have to go only to the government to look for employment but I was able to secure the type of employment that I was most interested in at that time or that he had a variety to choose from and that no one would say to me that, "You work here or there."
Mr. JENNER. Did you experience any bitterness in being laid off at Convair?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Resentful?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not.
Mr. JENNER. What was your reaction?
Mr. OSWALD. My reaction since I have been laid off at Convair and when I was laid off at Convair I felt like it was the best thing that ever happened to me.
Mr. JENNER. When did that event take place?
Mr. OSWALD. In August, 1957, sir.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Proceed with your recollection of your reply to this letter.
Mr. OSWALD. If I may, sir, continue. to answer something along the question of how I felt or reacted to my layoff at Convair; the reason why I recall the date is because my daughter was born two or three days after I was laid off, and I knew I was going to be laid off before she was born and I did not tell my wife and I recall that quite vividly.
Thank you.
Mr. JENNER. I think I will ask you an additional question about that, if I may, please.
Mr. OSWALD. All right, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion, at least in Lee's presence, regarding your being laid off at Convair and your attitude with respect thereto.
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; none that I recall.
Mr. JENNER. And where was he let's see, 1957, he was in the Marines then.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. I take it then sometime along the line you had advised him that you were no longer with Convair.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I feel certain like I did.
Mr. JENNER. Perhaps you wrote him to that effect or you told him about it when he was on leave in 1958.
Mr. OSWALD. I would feel like perhaps I wrote him about it.
Mr. JENNER. And to the best of your recollection did you indicate any resentment or bitterness in that regard?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. As I have never been resentful to that or bitter about it.
Mr. JENNER. So that at least, as far as you can recall, any statement you made or any attitude you have with respect to your layoff which might have come to his attention, did not form a basis for his predicating the Convair comment, on which he might have predicated the Convair comment, in his letter of November 26?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Proceed.
Mr. OSWALD. I also
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, if I asked you a similar line of questions with respect to the union question would your answer be the same?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; It certainly would.
Mr. JENNER. You never expressed any dislike of unions. You never expressed to him, or in his presence, or members of your family, views that unions were exploited?
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Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. JENNER. All right
By the way, had there been any discussion in the course of your youth, as you boys grew up, expressions in your family of any of these attitudes that he is expressing in his letter of November 8 and his letter of November 26?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. To my knowledge there was never any type of discussion that would reflect any of the statements or questions that he wrote in his letter of November 26, 1959.
Mr. JENNER. Would you say to the extent there were discussions among you, and your family life, that the contrary was expressed?
Mr. OSWALD. I do not recall any discussions, sir, but if there was any discussion it would have been to the contrary.
Mr. JENNER. Your family was always a typical, loyal American family?
Mr. OSWALD. That is-correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. That is, loyal to the Government of the United States and you thought well of it?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. When I say, you, I mean all of the members of your family as far as you knew?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Proceed with your recollection of your response.
Mr. OSWALD. I refer to his statement in the letter of November 26 on the second page, "I can still see Japan and the Philippines and their puppet governments. More important, I can see the Americans in uniform, men who were there because they were drafted or because they were adventurers or unemployed in civilian life." I referred to my own volunteering in the United States Marine Corps at that time, and I felt that nothing he pointed out there applied to my case, and I felt quite a few other men felt as I did, as to the reasons behind their joining the United States service.
Mr. JENNER. Had you expressed any dissatisfaction to him with your tour in the Marines, or was that subject discussed in family councils or visits on his part to Fort Worth?
Mr. McKENZIE. May I for just a moment?
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. OSWALD. Would you repeat the question, I believe I had it; I want to be sure of it.
(The question was read.)
Mr. OSWALD. I do not believe that at any time we discussed it. We might have mentioned my tour in the United States Marine Corps. He was very proud of my service record and it would so indicate that I conducted myself in the best tradition of the United States Marine Corps; not that I was any lily white, but I was never in any serious trouble and I progressed in rank in keeping with the period that I was in the United States Marine Corps.
Mr. JENNER. Had that thought been expressed, or at least that flavor left, with the members of your family?
Mr. OSWALD. I feel that it was, particularly to Lee, because I--
Mr. JENNER. Would you elaborate on that, please; we are interested in that.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. Because I feel very surely that the reason that Lee joined the United States Marine Corps was because of my service in the United States Marine Corps and he wanted to follow----
Mr. JENNER. And your reaction to it had been communicated by you to him?
Mr. OSWALD. I feel like it was, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Many witnesses have a habit that you have when you feel like it was. Do you mean that you actually conveyed that thought to him?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe I did, sir.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. OSWALD. Thank you.
I believe I was stating that I believe that the reason that Lee joined the United States Marine Corps was to follow in my footsteps, in that same service, and frankly I believe that at that time in earlier years and later years that he
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looked up to me, not only in that respect, but that eventually he wanted to follow in my footsteps.
I would say within the family relation that Lee and I were closer than Lee and mother or Lee and John during our entire lifetime. That if there was something that he was going to discuss with anybody, or say to anybody, within the family I would be the one that he would discuss it with.
I refer to his statement on the second page of the letter of November 26, 1959, "I will ask you a question, Robert, what do you support the American government for? What is the ideal you put forward. Do not say freedom because freedom is a word used by all people through all of time."
1 did refer to the word "freedom" and I recall stating to him that the word "freedom" to me was something that was earned and not handed down.
I refer to the third page of the letter of November 26, 1959, and the brief statement, "America is a dying country."
I replied to him that perhaps, and I believe some great man said this statement at one time or the other, I do not recall who, that we were a sleeping giant, and that we were coming awake. This was, of course, in reference to the Communist world.
Mr. JENNER. This was something you said in your letter?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. DULLES. May I ask what is the date of this letter?
Mr. JENNER. It is in response to the letter of November 26.
Mr. DULLES. November 26, yes.
Mr. OSWALD. I refer to the bottom of the page of the letter of November 26, "So you speak of advantages. Do you think that is why I am here for personal material advantages, happiness is not based on oneself, it does not consist of a small home of taking and getting."
I recall my reply to this series of questions as being-as to having that right to seek for oneself his own personal desires to the extent that the material advantages were something of a secondary nature, and was something of a reward for his efforts.
Mr. JENNER. While the witness is looking further, Mr. Chairman, this is a little tedious, but as counsel for the Commission, I suggest its importance and relevancy in that, if nothing else, it serves to demonstrate the response of the witness to the letter indicating the attitude of the Oswald family on these subjects and isolating these views to Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mr. DULLES. I think this is important, and the more I hear of this letter the more I get the impression that there was some help given in writing this letter.
Mr. JENNER. That is why I am spending so much time on it.
Mr. DULLES. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. With apologies to you, Mr. McKenzie, that is the only way we can go at it because we don't have the actual response itself.
Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Jenner, I commend you on the way that you are conducting this interrogation.
Mr. JENNER. Thank you.
Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Oswald, under no circumstances speculate on what you wrote in answer to these letters. State to the best of your recollection only what you did write, if you recall.
If you can't recall tell Mr. Jenner so.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, this is what I have been doing, sir.
Mr. DULLES. In view of the importance of this letter of November 26 and certain other of these letters, as Chairman and in view of the absence of a number of my colleagues today for unavoidable reasons, I think it might be well to insert the entire letter in the record and possibly certain other letters on which you are going to interrogate the witness. You see no objection?
Mr. McKENZIE. None whatsoever, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. DULLES. I have in mind that other members of the Commission may not be able to read all of the exhibits but I think they should read these letters on which we are interrogating the witness.
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Mr. McKENZIE Yes, sir.
Mr. DULLES. In order to get the full purport, flavor of this particular line of interrogation.
Mr. McKENZIE. I couldn't concur more, Mr. Dulles----
Mr. DULLES. We will leave it then to your discretion with Mr. Rankin to decide what letters should go in, in connection with his testimony.
Mr. McKENZIE. I might add in that regard, Mr. Chairman, that I have no objection, whatsoever to any or all of the letters going into the record.
Mr. DULLES. Thank you.
Mr. JENNER. They are already in the record. But you mean set forth in full in the record.
Mr. McKENZIE. I would mark right now the spot in the record following the Chairman's remarks and my concurrence and, of course, Mr. Jenner's suggestion that the letter be in its entirety placed in the record, I would mark that place now so that it could go in at this spot.
Mr. JENNER. Also the letter of November 8. And November 26 letter.
Mr. JENNER. Proceed, Mr. Oswald.
Mr. OSWALD. I do not recall any other statements that I would have replied to, or did reply to, in my reply to his letter of November 26, 1959.
Mr. JENNER. All right, sir.
Now, did you receive any direct response to your letter, and your next letter is Commission Exhibit No. 296, sometime during the summer of 1959, it is a short one-page letter.
Mr. OSWALD. This is December, 1959, sir.
Mr. JENNER. No, it is in the summer of 1959, isn't it, or is that the one-page letter which you had written December 17, 1959.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And is that the next letter you received from your brother?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Is there any reference in that letter to the response you made to the November 26 letter?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. There is not.
Mr. JENNER. Did you receive any subsequent letter in which he made any direct response to your long letter which you wrote him in response to the letter of November 26?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, he did not, and if I might say I wrote earlier and as a reminder to myself that I was concerned at the time I received the letter of December 17, 1959.
Mr. JENNER. That is Commission Exhibit 297.
Mr. OSWALD. That Lee did not have time to receive my reply to his letter of November 26, 1959.
Mr. JENNER. I see.
Then the next letter you received, at least in the series you have produced, is May 5, 1961, a two-page letter, Commission Exhibit 298.
Mr. OSWALD. Could I have that date again, please, sir?
Mr. JENNER. May 5, 1961.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. He makes no response in that letter to your response to his letter of November 26.
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, he does not. Perhaps, sir, the only way that I can be aware that he received my letter in reply to November 26 letter, to his letter of November 26, 1959, I did enclose one photograph of my daughter Cathy Marie Oswald at the age of 2 years old in that letter.
Mr. JENNER. In your response to his letter of November 26?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; and at a later date Lee was to tell me that he did keep this photograph, so he did receive my letter.
Mr. JENNER. Would you repeat what you just said, sir, or would you read it, Mr. Reporter?
(The reporter read the answer.)
Mr. JENNER. You said Lee was to tell you, did you mean by that expression that he actually acknowledged receipt of the photograph?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, he did.
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Mr. JENNER. Which leads you to believe necessarily then-that he received your response to his letter of November 26.
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did he state that he had received that photograph in a letter that he wrote you or was that orally after he returned to the United States.
Mr. OSWALD. I believe this was orally, sir.
Mr. JENNER. After he returned to the United States?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Now, returning to his short stay at Fort Worth upon his being discharged from the Marines, what do you recall, if anything, of any discussion respecting his financial status at that time, that is whether he was in funds and if so, what volume of funds.
Mr. OSWALD. I was not aware of his financial situation at that time.
Mr. JENNER. Was it discussed?
Mr. OSWALD. Not that I recall, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did any member of the family, during that period of time, ever discuss with you, having in turn discussed that subject matter with Lee?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, they did not.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever have a conversation with your mother prior to November 22, 1963 respecting Lee's financial status at the period of time when he was immediately-right at the time he was discharged from the Marines?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. I do not remember one.
Mr. JENNER. So that up to November 22, 1963, there was never any discussion in which you participated or which you overheard on that subject?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Now, with respect to the remaining series of letters, were you ever advised while your brother Lee was in Russia how much money he was given or earned?
Mr. OSWALD. While he was----
Mr. JENNER. Or he received?
Mr. OSWALD. While he was in Russia employed?
Mr. JENNER. While he was in Russia.
Mr. OSWALD. While he was in Russia.
Mr. JENNER. Either from his employment or by gift.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; there is a reply in one of these letters that I received from Lee from Russia stating how much he was making while employed in Russia.
Mr. JENNER. The letter will, of course, be the best evidence of that. Did he say it in terms of dollars or in terms of rubles, what is your recollection?
Mr. OSWALD. In both, sir. I believe he stated it in the words rubles and in parentheses in the amount of American dollars.
Mr. JENNER. I see, we will find that out.
Mr. OSWALD. And I believe on a monthly basis.
Mr. JENNER. Did he ever write you as to whether he had received any money by way of gift from any agency in Russia?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.
Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Jenner, I respectfully submit that the letters themselves would be the best evidence.
Mr. JENNER. You are undoubtedly correct and I will desist.
Did you have any discussion with him on that subject after he returned from Russia?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not.
Mr. JENNER. Or on the subject of his earnings in Russia?
Mr. OSWALD. None that I recall, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did you receive any packages or gifts from Russia while your brother was there?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. JENNER. What did you receive?
Mr. OSWALD. Well----
Mr. JENNER. And give the approximate times.
Mr. OSWALD. There again, sir, there is a letter from Lee in Russia stating that he had sent a gift or gifts to us at my residence in Fort Worth, Tex. I
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recall that on two occasions we received gifts from Russia at my address in Fort Worth, Tex. I believe the first one consisted of Russian cigarettes, Russian candy, six place mats or six napkins that Marina had embroidered herself.
Mr. McKENZIE. Or at least what they told you Marina had embroidered.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. And also a Russian wooden doll, the type that pops open in the middle and has a smaller doll on the inside and so forth down the line until you end up with one approximately an inch high from one originating from one six or seven inches high. That was the first package that I recall receiving from Lee and his wife while they were in Russia.
Mr. JENNER. Approximately when was that?
Mr. OSWALD. Prior to Christmas of 1961.
Mr. JENNER. There was a second occasion when you received a package?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. What was that?
Mr. OSWALD. This was closer to Christmas of 1961.
Mr. JENNER. And it contained what?
Mr. OSWALD. It contained one Russian children's book.
Mr. JENNER. In the Russian language or in English?
Mr. OSWALD. In the Russian language, sir, and going by the cover of the book and as you open the book in the center section, a Russian rocket ship would unfold and be standing in the launch position, and was quite evident by the pictures, at least in the book, that this was a book for Russian children depicting the Russian efforts toward their space program.
Mr. JENNER. Do you still have that book?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do. And there was also another children's book, and I believe this package only consisted of a present for Cathy Marie Oswald for Christmas, 1961 from her aunt and uncle, Lee and Marina.
Mr. JENNER. A child's gift?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, and the second book was a child's coloring book, a Russian coloring book.
Mr. JENNER. Does that exhaust your recollection as to gifts you received from them or from Lee while they were in Russia?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, it does.
Mr. JENNER. Did he ever send you a pair of boots?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, he did not. And I might add we also still have the child's coloring book that was received at that time for Christmas, 1961.
Mr. JENNER. All right, sir.
Now, would you please relate to us everything that your brother Lee told you about hunting in Russia?
Mr. McKENZIE. You mean other than in correspondence?
Mr. JENNER. I mean other than by the correspondence. I should precede that by the question did you have any conversation with him about hunting in Russia?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I did.
Mr. JENNER. And that occurred after he returned to the United States?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Fix the approximate date.
Mr. OSWALD. Approximately the latter part of June, 1962.
Mr. JENNER. While he was residing in your home?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. What did he say? Excuse me, this occurred in your home?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it did.
Mr. JENNER. Was anyone present other than yourself and your brother?
Mr. OSWALD. Perhaps Marina and my wife Vada. As I best remember the conversation, since our interest in hunting was mutual, that he had on two or three occasions gone bird hunting or duck hunting and that he had killed some birds and some ducks on two or three of these occasions that he had gone in, that he had only used a shotgun, that they were not allowed to have a rifle.
Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion of that subject matter on any other occasion prior to November 22, 1963?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe in his letters.
Mr. JENNER. No, discussions.
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Mr. OSWALD. Pardon me, no, sir; there was not, not that I recall.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have any discussion with him during the period from his return in June of 1962 up to November 22., 1963, of his membership in a gun club while he was in Russia?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. JENNER, Did any discussion occur between you as to his membership in any other group while he was in Russia, whether it was a gun club, a social club, a labor union or otherwise?
Mr. OSWALD. None that I recall, sir.
Mr. JENNER. In one of the letters, your brother Lee asked you whether, to check to see if, the United States had any, lodged any charges against him. Do you recall that?
Mr. OSWALD. Briefly, yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. What did you do when he made that request to you, if any?
Mr. OSWALD. I recall replying to his letter and stated that to my knowledge, and I could see no reason why they would have any charges against him for going to Russia, because he was an American citizen, and he was free to do as he chooses as long as it was not harmful to the United States Government and I didn't feel like he had done anything harmful to the United States Government by going to Russia.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever write in any of the letters that you wrote him, did you raise the question with him of whether he had in fact renounced or attempted to renounce his United States citizenship?
Mr. OSWALD. I was advised that, at the time, that we became aware that Lee was in Russia by newspaper correspondents in Fort Worth, Tex., that the United States Embassy acting on their own accord, would not allow him to sign any final papers denouncing his United States citizenship. Whether he wanted to or not they were attempting to prevent him from doing this. I never did hear any more about that. Perhaps during the correspondence or on his return from Russia, this was certainly evident that he had not signed any final papers denouncing his United States citizenship.
Mr. JENNER. I take it from your response, sir, that you did not raise that matter with him in any letters that you wrote to him?
Mr. OSWALD. Not to my recollection, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have any discussion with him on the subject on his return to the United States?
Mr. OSWALD. Possibly so, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall that distinctly at the moment?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I do not.
Mr. JENNER. Did your brother Lee raise again with you, following your response to his request that you investigate whether or not there were any other charges against him; did he raise again with you the question of whether you had made an investigation, whether there were charges?
Mr. McKENZIE. When you say did he raise again
Mr. JENNER. At any time subsequent thereto, that is apart from the correspondence which has been introduced in evidence.
Mr. McKENZIE There are several instances in the correspondence, Mr. Jenner, there are questions raised about this.
Are you talking about after he returned from-to the United States from the Soviet Union?
Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir; I am at the moment.
Mr. McKENZIE All right.
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; not to my recollection.
Mr. JENNER. When he returned to the United States and while he was living with you, was there or were there any occasions in which there was discussion of his trip back from Russia and the course they took in returning to the United States, the means and manner of return?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; there was.
Mr. JENNER. Give us your recollection of what that discussion was and what your brother and/or Marina said to you and your wife Vada or either of them?
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Mr. OSWALD. I recall asking him how his trip was from Russia to New York City by boat. I asked him what route they had traveled, and he advised me then, that is as I believe he advised me in one of his letters, the first one, was to go from Minsk to Moscow and then from Moscow to Holland, I believe, to board a ship that touched at England, and from England to New York City.
Mr. JENNER. Did he or they----
Mr. OSWALD. He.
Mr. JENNER. This is a conversation with him?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes sir, that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have any conversation with Marina on this subject or in her presence?
Mr. OSWALD. Not that I recall, no, sir.
Mr. JENNER. But he did state specifically that they had gone to Moscow?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And from Moscow to where?
Mr. OSWALD. To Holland, if my memory serves me correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did he say, did he indicate, how they had traveled from Moscow to Holland, by what means of conveyance?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, he did not.
Mr. JENNER. Was anything said about how long they stayed in Moscow before they took off for Holland?
Mr. OSWALD. In this discussion, I do not recall that he did, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And did he say how long they stayed in Holland, if they stayed there at all?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, he did not.
Mr. JENNER. But you do recall his stating specifically they touched England in the sense that the ship--
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; for supplies or for some other reason, it appeared not to be, I say appeared, I assume it was not a very long stay there and that they did not leave the ship.
Mr. JENNER. He did state that they did not leave the ship at that point?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; this is an assumption on my part-the way he put it to me.
Mr. JENNER. And they proceeded from there directly to New York Harbor, New York City.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. By what means? And he did report that to you?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did this series of letters you received in the early portion, period of his stay in Russia excite your suspicions as to whether he was or might be a Russian agent?
Mr. OSWALD. If I understand the question correctly this was the early stay of his in Russia in 1959?
Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir, 1959 and let us say to the early part of 1961.
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have any occasion to discuss that subject during this period of time with your mother or she with you?
Mr. OSWALD. Prior to his return in 1961 she did discuss this with me.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Where did this discussion take place?
Mr. OSWALD. If I may fix the date approximately, sir, if you could give me the date of her trip to Washington, D.C.
Mr. JENNER. You have me at a disadvantage because Mr. Liebeler has been called out and he can furnish that. I don't want to guess at it.
Mr. McKENZIE. May I then ask if possibly the Chairman might recall?
Mr. DULLES. The date of that visit to Washington?
Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir.
Mr. DULLES. No, I don't think I do.
Mr. McKENZIE. Possibly Mr. Rankin might know.
Mr. JENNER. Our information was that that was January 26, 1961.
Mr. OSWALD. Thank you, sir. If I may have, the question again, please.
(The question was read by the reporter.)
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Mr. JENNER. Whether the suspicions, on the part of yourself or your mother, were that your brother was or might be an agent for the Russian Government----
Mr. OSWALD. Pardon me, sir, I believe I misunderstood. I thought it was in reference to whether or not Lee might have been an agent of the United States Government.
Mr. JENNER. No. It was the Russian Government I asked about.
Mr. OSWALD. I am sorry, sir. At no time was any discussion that I have been into indicated that in any way.
Mr. JENNER. Now, you have referred then to, or had in mind, a conversation with your mother as to whether your brother was an agent of the United States Government.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And are you able to fix the time of that discussion now having been supplied with the date when your mother visited Washington?
Mr. OSWALD. Approximately the spring of 1961.
Mr. JENNER. Several months following her visit to Washington in January, 1961.
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Where did that discussion take place?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe this was a telephone conversation, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did you call her or did she call you?
Mr. OSWALD. She called me, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And you recognized her voice, did you?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I did.
Mr. JENNER. What did she say on the subject?
Mr. OSWALD. That she told me briefly about her trip to Washington, and that she, as she put it, had seen various important people, and that she was reaching or coming to the conclusion that Lee was an agent of one sort or another for the United States Government.
Mr. JENNER. Did you respond to that?
Mr. OSWALD. I do not recall, sir, that I did; if so, what my response might have been.
Mr. JENNER. You don't recall whether you responded, and if you did, you don't recall your response?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. All right, have you given us now all your conversations you had with your mother on the subject of whether your brother, that is up to November 22, 1963, as to whether your brother was or might have been an agent of the Government of the United States or an agent of any other government including that of Russia?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. As you received these letters, particularly the series of letters in 1961, up to the first of January, 1962, did there occur to you the thought that your brother was or might be an agent of the Russian Government?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it most certainly did not.
Mr. JENNER. And at any time thereafter up to November 22, 1963?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it has not.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have any contact with the State Department or did the State Department have any contact with you at any time while your brother was in Russia?
Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Jenner, I believe the record will show there was a previous telegram to Mr. Christian Herter who was Secretary of State at the time.
Mr. JENNER. Other than the telegram you testified about yesterday.
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have any conversations with your mother respecting her contacts, if any, with the State Department during the period of time your brother was in Russia?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not.
Mr. JENNER. Did you at any time prior to November 22, 1963, no, I will include that date, let's say at any time prior to December 1, 1963, have any view or suspicion that Marina Oswald was or might have been an agent of the Russian Government?
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Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. JENNER. In the letter of July 14, 1961, being Commission Exhibit 301, your brother expresses or states, makes some derogatory comments respecting Russia. Is that the first information or knowledge that you had of any change of attitude on his part?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, it was not.
Mr. JENNER. Indicate the prior event that gave you some suspicion in that connection.
Mr. OSWALD. If I understand it correctly, sir, whether or not had I had any prior indication prior to receiving the letter of July 14, 1961, that Lee was becoming----
Mr. JENNER. Disenchanted.
Mr. OSWALD. Disenchanted with the Russian way of life?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. OSWALD. When I received his first letter from Russia after a year or so of silence--
Mr. JENNER. Give the date of the letter.
There is a break between December 17, 1959 and May 5, 1961.
Is it the letter of May 5 of 1961?
Mr. OSWALD. I am referring to the letter of May 5, 1961.
Mr. JENNER. All right. It is Commission Exhibit 299.
Mr. OSWALD. It indicated to me, whether it so states in there or not, because he did start writing again that he was in fact disenchanted with the Russian way of life.
Mr. JENNER. This is the first letter you received after Lee had gone to Minsk, is it not?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And it is the first letter you received following the undated letter of, in December, 1959, but that you have noted was received on the 17th of December, 1959.
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. I take it then the subsequent letters heightened your impression of suspicion that he was becoming either was completely or was becoming, disenchanted with Russia.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, in his letter it certainly doesn't indicate that he was, but it was my opinion at that time and still is that he was then----
Mr. JENNER. After you had read that letter, meaning the letter of May 5, 1961, which is Commission Exhibit 299, you felt that, or you had the reaction that, he was becoming disenchanted with Russia?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And that was later confirmed by subsequent letters in which he expressly stated----
Mr. McKENZIE. Disenchantment.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. JENNER. There appears to be on some of the envelopes now in evidence some stamps. They are in Russian but they may indicate that they are stamps placed upon those envelopes by a censor, and we will now undertake to investigate that circumstance.
Mr. MCKENZIE. Would you like for me to tell you which ones?
Mr. JENNER. If you will give me the dates I will recite the exhibit numbers.
Mr. McKENZIE. It is June 26, 1961.
Mr. JENNER. That is Commission Exhibit No. 300.
Mr. McKENZIE. August 21, 1961.
Mr. JENNER. Is the envelope dated August 21?
Mr. McKENZIE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Would you see if that contains a one-page letter; oh, yes, August 21, that is Commission Exhibit No. 303. You need not do it.
Mr. McKENZIE. And September 10, 1961.
Mr. JENNER. That is Commission Exhibit No. 305.
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Mr. McKENZIE. And I call the Commission's attention particularly to the word stamped on the envelope "recommende" for whatever it means.
Mr. DULLES. That is French.
Mr. JENNER. Would you please relate, Mr. Oswald, Marina's speak or understand English at the time that she and your turned from Russia in June of 1962?
Mr. OSWALD. Her ability to understand was far less than her speak English words. I spoke to her on the telephone the night of June 13, 1962 from New York City, to my residence in Fort Worth, Tex., and her statement to me at that time was, "Hello, Robert." I replied but no answer, and Lee took the telephone over again.
Mr. JENNER. During the month they lived in your home, were you better able to form an opinion as to her ability to speak and understand English?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe the best way to establish the degree of what she understood in English at that time and her ability to speak the English language would be very, very, very small, if anything at all.
Mr. JENNER. As to her facility in that regard-did her facility in regard become better as the months and years wore on?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion which you overheard or with respecting her undertaking to study, learn to speak, English?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; she most certainly wanted to learn to speak English at the time, and she was staying at my home in Fort Worth, Tex. and prior to their departure from Fort Worth, Tex. to Dallas, Tex., in the winter of 1962.
Mr. JENNER. What was your brother's attitude with respect to her that respect?
Mr. OSWALD. I do not recall him stating his desires in that respect either pro or con.
Mr. JENNER. You have no impressions on the subject either way?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir I might have an impression, pardon me, wanted her particularly at the time we were staying, they were staying at home in Fort Worth, Tex., to learn English.
Mr. JENNER. That was expressed in your presence during that period of by him?
Mr. OSWALD. Not in so many words, sir. It was perhaps implied, and he me with the impression that he wanted her to learn English at that time or at soon as she possibly could, and I might add that on a number of occasions the visit at my home in Fort Worth, Tex. that my daughter Cathy, with her childhood language in 1961, which would establish her age at 4 years old, talk to her and it appeared that she would gather more English from Cathy than she would the adults in the family.
Mr. JENNER. Did the State Department or any agency of the United get in touch with you with respect to your supplying funds or the possibility of your supplying funds to your brother while he was still in Russia for the purpose of financing his return to the United States?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; they did not.
Mr. JENNER. Did any agency of the United States or any public body located in New York City get in touch with you with respect to supplying him funds for his transportation from New York City to Fort Worth?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, they did.
Mr. JENNER. Was that the initial request or knowledge to you that you received that funds were necessary, or would be needed for that purpose?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Do you remember the name of the agency? Was it the one that you identified yesterday?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, it was.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
In his letter of November 30, 1961, he makes a request for a football.
Did you send the football to him?
Mr. OSWALD. No sir, I did not.
Mr. JENNER. In the letter of December 14, 1961, which is Commission Exhibit
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No. 311, he makes a reference to the fact that he had not received any letter "certain" questions. Apparently questions that you had put to him.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have that letter?
Mr. OSWALD. The letter of July 14?
Mr. JENNER. No, this is December 14.
Mr. OSWALD. Pardon me.
Mr. JENNER. That is Commission Exhibit 311. It is two pages.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I have the letter.
Mr. JENNER. Does that refresh your recollection as to some letter you had written him prior thereto?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I do.
Mr. JENNER. Will you state what the letter was and whether it was in response to an earlier letter?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, it was not in response. it was a response to an earlier letter from Lee. I did in an effort to determine whether or not all my letters----
Mr. JENNER. The last prior letter was the letter of November 30, 1961, Commission Exhibit 308, and then immediately prior to that was the letter of November 1, 1961, Commission Exhibit 309.
Mr. OSWALD. In reference to the question regarding that letter of December 14, 1961, at which time he stated "I did not receive any letter with 'certain' questions."
I did write him a letter at which time I recall raising two political type questions to see whether or not he would receive--
Mr. JENNER. He would respond?
Mr. OSWALD. Sir?
Mr. JENNER. To see whether he would respond, did you say?
Mr. OSWALD. To see whether or not he would receive the letter itself.
Mr. JENNER. I am sorry, I thought you said to receive.
Mr. OSWALD. I believe, sir; if my memory serves me correct in some earlier letters he refers there to some Russian censors he felt like were censoring his mail and my mail also and I wanted to find out in my own way whether this was so or not.
I might say that was the only time I attempted to raise any type of political questions in my response to any of his letters or any other letters that I sent him, because I did want the letters to go through rather than be destroyed or not received by him.
Mr. JENNER. We can draw our own inference as to whether he received your letter.
Was there any discussion of the subject after return to the United States, that is, the subject whether he had received your letter?
Mr. OSWALD. Not to my recollection, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have any discussion with your brother on the subject of his undesirable discharge after he returned to the United States?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. JENNER. And when was that? Was it more than one occasion?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe, sir, only on one occasion did we discuss that matter.
Mr. JENNER. When was that? Where was it?
Mr. OSWALD. Approximately June 1962 at my home in Fort Worth, Tex.
Mr. JENNER. Who was present?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe just Lee and I were present in this one room which was the living room of our home.
Mr. JENNER. In your home?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. What did he say?
Mr. OSWALD. He said he wanted to go down the next day to the Marine Corps office in Fort Worth, Tex., and discuss with them and perhaps find out what action he needed to take to have this corrected to an honorable discharge.
Mr. JENNER. What did you say?
Mr. OSWALD. My reply to him on that was that I thought that that was a good idea and that he might raise the question at the Marine Corps office in Fort
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Worth, Tex., if I could be of some assistance in writing the Marine office directly on behalf of him. I do not recall if he made this trip Marine Corps office. I do not recall any further conversation in reference dishonorable discharge.
Mr. JENNER. Would you turn your attention now to the letter of 1962, shortly before he returned to the United States?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Commission Exhibit 318.
As I recall that letter, he refers to some things that you had said when he departed for Russia. Do you find that portion of the letter?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do.
Mr. JENNER. Would you read it aloud, please, just that portion?
Mr. McKENZIE. May I interrupt you at this point, Mr. Jenner? Please, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. DULLES. Certainly, proceed.
Mr. McKENZIE. The two letters of November 8 and November 26 which we should make copies of for the purposes of the record, if you will pull them out of your file there I will--do you want to take the originals?
Mr. JENNER. That will be the best way of doing it.
Mr. McKENZIE. Except that yours are already marked with the exhibit number. I have no objection.
I will find out who I should see about making these.
Mr. JENNER. Why do you not make them on the Xerox machine?
I had asked you to read that portion of the letter so we can place the matter in context.
Mr. OSWALD. "I know what was said about me when I left the United States as Mother sent me clippings from the newspapers. However, I realize it was just the shock of the news which made you say all those things. However, I will just remind you again not to make any statement or comments if you are approached by the newspapers between now and the time we actually arrive in the United States."
Mr. JENNER. Is he referring then to things that were reported in the newspaper clippings that you said or is he referring to something you said to him before he departed for Russia, or is he referring to something you said in a letter you may have written him when he was in Russia?
Mr. OSWALD. He is referring, sir, to the. clippings of newspapers that mother had sent him containing reportedly my statements to the newspapers at the time we were advised on October 31, 1959 that Lee was in Russia.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have occasion to make any comments to newspaper reporters when it became known that he was about to return to the United States?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. JENNER. And did those come to your brother's attention?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; they did not.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever discuss them or he with you?
Mr. OSWALD. When the newspaper reporters contacted me prior to his arrival in New York City, I did not divulge my knowledge of his departure as per this letter of May 22, 1962, the approximate date he would be in the United States. I did not give them any indication whatsoever at that time that he was leaving the Soviet Union.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever respond to that particular letter?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. DULLES. May I ask a question here?
You indicated that your brother was disappointed when he arrived at Love Airfield and the newspapermen were not there when he came hack from Russia.
Did the newspapermen thereafter talk with your brother at your house or elsewhere?
Mr. OSWALD. They attempted to, sir. I say "they." It was, more specifically, one newspaperman.
Mr. JENNER. But he did not succeed in getting an interview?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Reference is made in your brother's letter to you of November 17,
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1962, which is Commission Exhibit 320, to Thanksgiving dinner. Would you obtain that exhibit, please?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have it.
Mr. DULLES. What Thanksgiving, 1962?
Mr. JENNER. 1962, sir.
Was the Thanksgiving dinner held at your home on Thanksgiving Day, November 1962?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Would you tell us all of the circumstances preceding, leading up to and what occurred on that date and who attended the Thanksgiving dinner?
Mr. OSWALD. Lee and Marina and their small child had moved to Dallas, Tex.
Mr. JENNER. Where in Dallas, Tex.? Do you recall?
Mr. OSWALD. I did not have any address, sir. I had only a post office box, Box 2015, Dallas, Tex.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. OSWALD. My older brother John had called me from San Antonio, Tex. prior to Thanksgiving 1962, indicating that he was going to be able to take a leave----
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, Mr. Oswald.
Mr. Chairman, there is some confusion respecting this Thanksgiving dinner.
Mr. OSWALD. Where John was stationed in the Air Force he called me from San Antonio stating that he would be able to take a leave during the period of Thanksgiving of November 1962 and that they would travel from San Antonio, Tex., to my home in Fort Worth, Tex. I wrote Lee and asked him would it be possible for him to join us at that time with his family.
Mr. JENNER. Did you indicate in your letter that his brother John and wife were to Join you on that occasion?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. JENNER. Did you indicate that anyone in addition, to wit, your mother, was also to join you on that occasion?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. OSWALD. In reference to the letter dated November 17, 1962, from Lee Harvey Oswald
Mr. JENNER. That is Commission Exhibit 320.
Mr. OSWALD. It replied to my letter: "In answer to your kind invitation for Thanksgiving, we love to come and will be in Fort Worth Thanksgiving morning and we shall come by bus and give you a ring on the phone from the bus station (about 9:10). See you soon. Lee."
Mr. JENNER. Did he come to Fort Worth?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. For that particular occasion?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. When did he arrive?
Mr. OSWALD. Approximately nine to ten o'clock in the morning.
Mr. JENNER. Of Thanksgiving Day?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Was he accompanied by anyone?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; he was.
Mr. JENNER. Who?
Mr. OSWALD. Marina N. Oswald and the baby June Lee Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. Did all Of you have Thanksgiving dinner on that day?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; we did.
Mr. JENNER. Did both Lee and Marina attend that dinner?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; they did.
Mr. JENNER. And John Pic and his wife?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; they did.
Mr. JENNER. You and your wife?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Your children?
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Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. The children of Lee and Marina?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. McKENZIE. The child. There was only one at that time.
Mr. JENNER. That is right, the child June. Anyone else?
Mr. OSWALD. The children of John and Marge Pic.
Mr. JENNER. But your mother did not attend the dinner?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Had you invited her?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I had not.
Mr. JENNER. As far as you know, she was unaware of it?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Was any comment made that she was not present, about the fact that she was not present at the dinner?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; there was not:
Mr. JENNER. Was anything said about what your brother Lee was doing by way of employment in Dallas?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; there was.
Mr. JENNER. What was said, and by whom?
Mr. OSWALD. I feel like I had asked Lee what he was doing at that particular time, and his reply to me was that he was working for a traffic outfit in Dallas, the name of which I do not recall. However, he did state the name of the firm. I do not recall the name of the firm. And that it was to him very interesting work. He thought that he could perhaps learn this type of work and progress in it quite ably.
Mr. DULLES. How did he appear to you mentally and physically on this occasion of the Thanksgiving dinner?
Mr. OSWALD. Very fit physically and very alert mentally.
Mr. JENNER. Discussion on that day occurred between you and your half-brother, John Pie, did it not, respecting your brother Lee's un-American beliefs?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it did.
Mr. JENNER. Would you relate that discussion between yourself--was it confined to a discussion between yourself and John Pic?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it was.
Mr. JENNER. Did you raise the subject?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe I did, sir.
Mr. JENNER. You were concerned about his un-American beliefs were you not?
Mr. OSWALD. I was not concerned about them. I wanted to state to John, since he had not been in contact with Lee when Lee was in Russia, or when he was at my home in Fort Worth, that this conversation took place.
Mr. JENNER. You state it.
Mr. DULLES. Was John present?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. DULLES. He was present.
Mr. McKENZIE. It was to John.
Mr. DULLES. Was he present?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he was not. I was about to say that this conversation took place on our way from my house to the bus station to pick up Lee, Marina and June the morning of Thanksgiving 1962. I do not recall the circumstances preceding this particular point of why I brought it up other than I do recall mentioning that the FBI had talked to Lee and apparently that everything was all right because they were not proceeding to discuss with him at any length and they were not holding him for any reason, so I assumed that everything was all right in that respect.
Mr. JENNER. I see.
Have you exhausted your present recollection of that conversation?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have.
Mr. DULLES. How did you know that the FBI had talked with Lee?
Mr. OSWALD. Lee had told me and I was aware that they had called my house and requested Lee to come down to their office in Fort Worth and talk with them
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Mr. DULLES. Did he report to you on that conversation at all? The details of it?
Mr. OSWALD. A very small detail of it, sir.
Mr. JENNER. What details?
Mr. OSWALD. I asked him when I returned home from work that afternoon how did it go. He said, "Just fine." He said they asked him at the last whether or not he was an agent for the United States Government. His reply was "Don't you know?"
Mr. JENNER. You recited that yesterday.
Mr. McKENZIE. This was testified to yesterday. It is repetition.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did you at that time say to John that the FBI had excuse me--had assured you that Lee was all right and not dangerous to our country?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I had not.
Mr. JENNER. Did you say to John on that occasion or any other occasion that he need not worry about Lee in connection with possible danger to our country?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. JENNER. When was that?
Mr. OSWALD. This was on the same occasion on the trip to the bus station as I have so indicated, that I had assumed, since they were not holding Lee or questioning him to any frequency, because at that time they had only questioned him to my knowledge one time, that everything as far as un-American views that he expressed when he went to Russia, everything was cleared and they had no reason to hold him or suspect him of anything.
Mr. DULLES. Did you know about the Fair Play for Cuba incident in New Orleans at this time?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. JENNER. Did your brother Lee and Marina leave your home after Thanksgiving dinner?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; they did.
Mr. JENNER,. That same day?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have occasion to see your brother at any time from that moment when he departed until sometime on the 22d of November 1963?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Jenner, may I interrupt you one more time?
In response to your question, Mr. Chairman, it is my best recollection, and I may be wrong and stand to be corrected if I am wrong, that the Fair Play for Cuba or the pro-Castro leaflets that he was handing out in New Orleans was in the summer of 1963.
Mr. DULLES. I think you may be right. Do you remember that?
Mr. JENNER. Yes, that is correct.
Mr. DULLES. That is correct. It had not taken place.
Mr. MCKENZIE. It had not taken place in November of 1962.
Mr. DULLES. Right.
Mr. McKENZIE. To the best of our knowledge.
Mr. JENNER. Did the witness have any opportunity to respond to Any last question?
Mr. McKENZIE. You had finished your question and I interrupted you before you could make another question.
Mr. JENNER. You mean the witness had responded to it?
Mr. DULLES. No; I do not think he had.
Mr. JENNER. Would you read the pending question? (The last question was read by the reporter.)
Mr. JENNER. Did you see Marina at any time subsequent to their departure on Thanksgiving Day, November 1962 and November 22, 1963?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I had not.
Mr. DULLES. Did you have any telephone conversations with either of them?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I had.
Mr. JENNER. In the interim period?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I had.
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Mr. JENNER. Were there a number of those or were they infrequent?
Mr. OSWALD. I recall only one, sir.
Mr. JENNER. When did that take place?
Mr. OSWALD. Approximately two or three weeks after Thanksgiving of 1962.
Mr. JENNER. That would be sometime then in December of 1962?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did you call him or did he call you?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he called me.
Mr. JENNER. You recognized his voice?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And was it day or night?
Mr. OSWALD. It was, I believe it was Sunday afternoon, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Sunday afternoon. And what was the occasion of his making that call as you recall it?
Mr. OSWALD. That he was in town briefly.
Mr. JENNER. In Fort Worth?
Mr. OSWALD. In Fort Worth, Tex., and that I asked would we see him; he said no, they were visiting some friends.
Mr. JENNER. "They" meaning he and Marina?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir,. and that they would be leaving for Dallas very shortly.
Mr. JENNER. That was a social call?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. You have given the full of the conversation?
Mr. OSWALD. To the best of my remembrance; yes, sir. It was very short.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have occasion to talk to Marina over the telephone on that particular time?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. JENNER. Did he talk with any other member of your family on occasion?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he did not.
Mr. JENNER. Other than that telephone conversation, had you had any other conversation with your brother Lee from the time on Thanksgiving Day, November 1962 to the time you saw him on November 22, 1963?
Mr. OSWALD. I did not see him on November ----
Mr. McKENZIE. He did not see him on that day.
Mr. OSWALD. On November 22, 1963.
Mr. McKENZIE. He saw him on November 23, 1963.
Mr. JENNER. Then my question is November 23.
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I had not had any conversation with him after November 1962, Thanksgiving Day, other than the one I have mentioned, up to the time of November 22, 1963.
Mr. DULLES. Did you make any attempts to get in touch with him in that period?
Mr. OSWALD. Only through the mail, sir.
Mr. JENNER. I was about to come to that.
Did you have any correspondence with him in the sense of your. dispatching a letter or note or he dispatching one to you?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. JENNER. Did you retain the correspondence insofar as anything you received from him is concerned?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. McKENZIE. And that has previously been furnished to the Commission.
Mr. JENNER. It has previously been furnished and it is, I see, a postcard which is dated as I recall--you give the date.
Mr. OSWALD. We are still referring to the period after November 1962, Thanksgiving Day?
Mr. JENNER. Yes, we are.
Mr. OSWALD. All right, sir.
One postcard dated January 10, 1963.
Mr. JENNER. And that is Commission Exhibit 324.
Did you receive any other correspondence?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.
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Mr. JENNER. And do you have it there?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do.
Mr. JENNER. And it is a letter dated?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. What date?
Mr. OSWALD. March 16, 1963.
Mr. JENNER. And that is Commission Exhibit 322.
Did you receive any other correspondence from him?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not.
Mr. JENNER. Did you dispatch any to him?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I had.
Mr. JENNER. Did they have any relation to either of the exhibits you have now identified?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; they did not.
Mr. JENNER. That is, neither Exhibit 322 nor Exhibit 324 was in response to any communication that you had dispatched to him?
Mr. OSWALD. Pardon me, sir, I was incorrect on that.
The letter of March 16, 1963 was in response to a letter I had written him approximately the first week of March 1963.
Mr. JENNER. Did you retain a copy of the letter you sent him? And if you made one, did you retain a copy?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; no copy was made and I did not retain it.
Mr. JENNER. Would you state the contents of your letter?
Mr. OSWALD. It was, briefly, sir, that we had moved to Malvern, Ark. I informed him of my new address and advised him that I had placed my home in Fort Worth, Tex., up for sale, and I had been given an opportunity by the company for a better and higher position, and that I had taken this opportunity and moved to Malvern, Ark. and requested, if possible, we would like to have them visit us.
Mr. DULLES. When did you move to Malvern, approximately?
Mr. OSWALD. The fifth day of March 1963, sir.
Mr. DULLES. And how long were you there?
Mr. OSWALD. To September 13, 1963. sir.
Mr. DULLES. And then you returned to--
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. Then I moved to Denton, Tex.
Mr. DULLES. Denton, Tex.?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. So that at the time of the event, November 22, 1963, you were residing in Malvern, Tex.?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I was residing in Denton, Tex.
Mr. JENNER. I should have said Malvern, Ark., anyhow.
Mr. DULLES. Let's see, you were then in Malvern, Ark., from March 1963, to approximately September 1963?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. That is where I misunderstood. I thought he said December.
All right, sir. I take it then at least from Thanksgiving Day, 1962, and the 23d day of November, 1963, you never had any discussions with Robert with respect to his desire, if any, to return to Russia, with Lee rather?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir: I did not.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever have any discussion with him on that subject?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir: I did not.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever have any discussion with him or he with you or with Marina or she with you on her return to Russia, whether he desired it or she did?
Mr. OSWALD. During that period?
Mr. JENNER. Prior to November 23, 1963.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. When did that discussion that you now have in mind take place?
Mr. OSWALD. At my home in June of 1962, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Who was present?
Mr. OSWALD. My wife Vada and Lee.
Mr. JENNER. With Marina I take it?
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Mr. OSWALD. And Marina was there.
Yes, sir; I was having a conversation or she was having something of a conversation with me.
Mr. JENNER. Before you give the conversation, was there ever any other occasion up to and including November 23, 1963 when you had a discussion with your brother or with Marina respecting the return of either of them to Russia.
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I only recall this one occasion.
Mr. JENNER. State what was said, please, and by whom.
Mr. OSWALD. This was said by Marina Oswald in June of 1962 in very broken English: "I never want to go to Russia again."
Mr. JENNER. Return to Russia?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And that was said in the presence of your brother Lee, presence and your wife's presence?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I feel certain that all four of us were present.
Mr. JENNER. Did your brother say anything on that occasion?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. As to that subject matter?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. This took place in your home? How long after they had returned from Russia did this conversation take place?
Mr. McKENZIE. What was that question?
Mr. OSWALD. I would say 1 or 2 weeks.
Mr. JENNER. One or two weeks after they had returned from Russia?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. DULLES. That is when they were staying with you after their return?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. At any time prior to November 23, 1962, were you aware or any incident arise or conversation take place indicating any desire on your brother Lee's part to go to Cuba?
Mr. OSWALD. No. sir; it did not.
Mr. JENNER. Or to Mexico?
Mr. OSWALD. No. sir: it did not.
Mr. JENNER. Or any other country than the United States?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir: there was not.
Mr. DULLES. Was there any particular reason why you did not have some contact with Lee during the period November, Thanksgiving 1962, and your departure for Arkansas in March of 1963?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; none that I was aware of. I did write him on two or three occasions asking him to advise me of his address in Dallas, Tex., so when I had an opportunity either on business or otherwise passing through where I could possibly stop and see him, if not Marina and the child.
His response to this was as it is stated in the letter of March 17, 1963, that generally he was moving and it was not settled and he would always retain the pest office box in Dallas, Tex., where I might reach him through the mail and that I would not be able to see him. or his family when I came through town.
Mr. DULLES. Did that surprise you?
Mr. OSWALD. It did not at first, sir, because I realized he was not settled as to a stable job and to an apartment. However, it did concern me later, and I refer to my letter that I wrote him in March of 1963 which he replied to on March 17 or March 16, 1963.
Mr. JENNER. Which is Commission Exhibit 322.
Mr. OSWALD. That I would like to have an address other than a post office box, and when again he did not furnish me this information, I did not respond to his letter of March 17, 1963. The last time I wrote him was in September 1963 when I returned to Texas and our moving into Denton, Tex., advising him of my new address, and still at that time requesting again an address where they were staying at in Dallas so that I might contact him, since again we were close together, approximately 30 miles away.
Mr. JENNER. And he did not respond to that?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he never responded to that letter that I wrote him in September other than on the day that I visited him at Dallas County Jail or
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Dallas City Jail on November 23, 1963, he did say before I had an opportunity to say anything to him, "Robert, you now are living in Denton, aren't you?" And I said yes.
In other words, he had received my letter of September 1963.
Mr. JENNER. This was elicited by Mr. Dulles' question, his failure to advise you in due course eventually here as late as September 1963 of his location in Dallas aroused some suspicions, doubts or a question in your mind?
Mr. OSWALD. It did to this extent, that I thought perhaps----
Mr. JENNER. Keep in mind all this history also, Mr. Oswald.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. That you testified about.
Mr. OSWALD. That perhaps he was angry at us or did not want to have anything to do with us. However, it was also my thinking on this that this would be out of character for him because he normally would keep in contact with me and let me have his address and so forth, even though he had furnished a post office box at first and which I understood, but his failure to give me an address indicated----
Mr. JENNER. Despite your at least two requests?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Or three requests?
Mr. OSWALD. Indicated to me that perhaps something of a different nature was going on that I was not aware of, whether he was having trouble with Marina and perhaps the baby, and they were not getting along and he did not want me to become aware of this situation; this would be my only speculation on that, sir.
Mr. DULLES. Did your wife have any contact with Marina over this period we are discussing from Thanksgiving of 1962 to November 1963?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; she did not.
Mr. JENNER. Did she ever indicate to you that she made any effort to effect a contact with Marina?
Mr. OSWALD. Did my wife? No, sir; she did not.
Mr. JENNER. In the light, Mr. Oswald, of the fact that your brother, as you testified, you thought looked up to you in his youth at least, in the light of his departure for Russia, in the light of the correspondence that you had with him in Russia about which you have testified, in the light of the conversations that you had with him upon his return, did not the fact that you did not hear from him for as long a period as from Thanksgiving Day of 1962 to well into the fall of 1963 raise any question in your mind beyond that which you have now testified about?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. That it might be something other than possible marital difficulties?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.
Of course, I refer to the postcard of January 10, 1963, and the letter of March 17, 1963, which I would state other than the fact that he did not advise me of Ms residence in Dallas, Tex.----
Mr. JENNER. Despite the fact that you requested it?
Mr. OSWALD. Right, that the infrequency of the mail at this time was going back to prior to the time that he was in Russia, to the extent that he was not writing frequently then when he was in the service and so forth, and then again I thought that he was returning to this, because I was also not writing him as frequently as we had while he was in Russia. And it is my opinion, sir, that Lee felt that he had caused me enough difficulty, that he did not want to in any way, even though I had offered my assistance after his return from Russia, in any way that I possibly could, that he did not want to burden me in case he was in any financial difficulty or any other difficulty.
Mr. JENNER. All right, thank you.
I am going to attempt to cover in general terms, Mr. Chairman, Representative Ford's questions and see if I can shorten up the examination in that respect.
Mr. DULLES. Could I have just a word with you for just a moment.
(Short recess.)
Mr. JENNER. You are acquainted at least by hearsay at the moment, are you
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not, with respect to an alleged attack having been made by your brother upon General Walker?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I am.
Mr. JENNER. It is that to which I wish to direct a question.
Did you have any knowledge or information of any kind or character at any time prior to November 24, 1963, of that incident?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. JENNER. No one had spoken to you about it?
Mr. OSWALD. No sir; they had not.
Mr. JENNER. When did it first come to your attention?
Mr. OSWALD. In the newspaper. I believe this to be sometime in the latter part of December 1963 or January 1964.
Mr. JENNER. It was subsequent to your brother's death?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And you had no information direct or indirect of any kind or character, scuttlebutt, hearsay or otherwise, up to that moment?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. DULLES. Did you know of any acts of violence that your brother had carried out or had contemplated or attempted during his life other than school boy antics?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I was not. I have never known him to attempt or indicate to attempt to carry out any type of violence other than a schoolboy----
Mr. JENNER. Was he given to tantrums?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he was not.
Mr. DULLES. Did he ever seem to you to be a man who repressed himself, he was boiling inside and that there were a great many emotions that he had that he was holding in? Did you get that impression from your knowledge of him?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. I would say that Lee's character was that he was more of a listener than a talker, not to the extent of being an introvert. I do not believe he was an introvert.
Mr. JENNER. I was about to ask you that question. There have been people who have been interviewed, teachers and others,. a good many of them as a matter of fact, who have described your brother as an introvert. Your mother used the expression that he was a loner in a statement that she made to the authorities in New York City, and I think on this record.
Was he in your opinion, gathered from your actual experience with him during his lifetime, a loner, that is, a person who would tend to prefer to be by himself and not seek out friends, not necessarily repulse friends but not affirmatively seek them out?
Mr. OSWALD. I would say yes and no, sir, to that question if I may.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Would you expand then and explain your answer yes and no?
Mr. OSWALD. I feel like in the late 1940s to about the time of my departure to the service in July of 1952, that he did seek out friends, and that he did have friends. However, after my release from the service in 1955, I do believe that he had become more grown to himself.
Mr. JENNER. That is during the interim he had become, while you were away?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. You noticed a change in him when you returned from the service?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Is that what you mean to say?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. All right, proceed and describe that to us.
Mr. OSWALD. Still my contact with him was limited, but he did appear to be drawn within himself more than he had been prior, and I do not know of any friends that he had at that particular time.
One factor of course would be that he had moved quite frequently or a number of times during this period.
Mr. JENNER. Apart from the reason, for the moment, I seek to draw from you your personal reaction as to whether he had become more retiring and that you had actually noticed that difference in him?
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Mr. OSWALD. Well, to me, sir, he had become or appeared to become more drawn into himself to the extent that I noticed that he wanted to read more, and of course when he wanted to read he wanted to be by himself. However, to me personally at that time when we were together, if he did not wish to read, he seemed and appeared to be as he was prior to 1952, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did that state of mind or his action, did you notice that that persisted when he returned from Russia?
Was he still of that retiring nature?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he was not. I felt that he was more of a gregarious type person that wanted to mix with people and wanted to talk to people.
Mr. JENNER. After he left your home and took residence with your mother and thereafter in various places in Fort Worth, did he seek you out?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. He called me on a number of occasions at my office.
Mr. JENNER. Did he come by your home and visit you voluntarily without invitation?
Mr. OSWALD. I do not recall of any time, sir. I usually was talking to him on the telephone quite frequently during the period that he had moved out of my mother's apartment into their own duplex, to the extent that I always told him that if he would like to come out any time just to give me a ring and I would gladly pick them up and bring them out to the house and return them to their home.
Mr. JENNER. Did he do so?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he did not.
Mr. DULLES. There has been some testimony here before the Commission to the general effect that in the latter period he broke pretty much away with some of the Russian group of friends in Dallas that Marina had developed or liked to be with, and that is because she could talk Russian. Did you see anything of that, and can you throw any further light on that?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. I was aware or had become aware of this group or some other group of the Russian-speaking population in Dallas, and I was aware of Mr. Gregory in Fort Worth, Tex., who had come to my house before Lee and Marina had moved out, to speak in the Russian language to Marina and to Lee. I was not aware that--I was aware that he was talking with and becoming acquainted with this group of persons, and I was not aware of the fact that he was withdrawing from this group of people.
Mr. DULLES. Did you know anything about his relations with a certain man named De Mohrenschildt?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. JENNER. Is the name familiar to you?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it is not.
Mr. McKENZIE. Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Dulles, who is the Chairman of the session today, has asked Mr. Oswald if he knows or has heard of a man by the name of De Mohrenschildt. Robert Oswald's answer I believe is reflected on the record that he did not know Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I have stated off the record to Mr. Dulles and to Mr. Jenner that I know George De Mohrenschildt.
I became acquainted with George De Mohrenschildt in this manner. Shortly after the law was passed in Texas that we could have women jurors----
Mr. JENNER. Could you fix that time?
Mr. McKENZIE. No, I cannot, but it has been within the last five years. I would say. But shortly after the law was passed that we could have women jurors sitting in our courts, my wife happened to be on a jury in Dallas, Texas, in one of our district courts. Sitting on that same jury with my wife, Sally McKenzie was a man by the name of George De Mohrenschildt. As a result of her jury experience in the trial of this case, in which he was a juror, I met George De Mohrenschildt. I have since come to know him briefly, and in no way intimately.
George De Mohrenschildt at one time was married to a lady from Pennsylvania by the name of Wynne Sharples. They were subsequently divorced in Dallas. Wynne Sharples is an M.D. by profession. She comes from a well-known
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Pennsylvania family, and her father has been engaged in the oil business under the name of Sharples Oil Company.
Wynne Sharples, following her divorce from George De Mohrenschildt, re-married and married another M.D.
Mr. JENNER. What is her married name?
Mr. McKENZIE. I do not recall her married name, but I do believe that she and her then husband, and I presume her present husband, the doctor that she married, were engaged in medical research at some hospital in Philadelphia or Baltimore, looking to the cause and a cure of a children's ailment of a very serious nature, and I believe it was connected with some blood type ailment.
Mr. JENNER. Leukemia?
Mr. McKENZIE No, it was not leukemia. There was an article on Wynne Sharples in one of the magazine supplements of either the Dallas Times-Herald or the Dallas Morning News, within the past five years.
George De Mohrenschildt has subsequently remarried, and some time within the past two years there was an article on George De Mohrenschildt in one of the Dallas daily newspapers, telling of a trip that he and his new bride were going to take through Mexico and Central America walking. In other words, they were going to walk from Dallas or the Mexican-United States border through Mexico and through Central America. It is my understanding that such a trip was taken, and that George De Mohrenschildt has since that time returned to Dallas, Tex. In fact, I have seen him in Dallas, Tex. within the past 7 months.
I do not know of any relationship between George De Mohrenschildt and Marina Oswald or Lee Harvey Oswald, nor have I ever heard of any.
Mr. JENNER. Would you describe George De Mohrenschildt physically, his physical appearance, the one you have in mind?
Mr. McKENZIE. The man that I know is a large man, approximately six foot one to three inches. He would probably weigh 205 to maybe 215 pounds.
Mr. JENNER. Age?
Mr. McKENZIE. He appears to be between 45 and 50 or 51 or 52. He has got a dark complexion, and I would say a typically foreign expression or foreign look to him, from the standpoint of being either a Russian or of the Slavic races.
Mr. JENNER. Have you ever spoken with him, to give us your impression of whether he has a foreign inflection in his speech?
Mr. McKENZIE. He does have a foreign inflection in his speech, and I have heard, I do not know this to be true, but I have heard that Mr. De Mohrenschildt has quite a way with the ladies.
Mr. JENNER. All right, thanks.
Mr. DULLES. Thank you very much.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Oswald, I have asked you about the Nixon and General Walker incidents. Did you at any time prior to November 23, 1963, have drawn to your attention any incident of any kind or character of action on the part of your brother Lee similar to those which have been raised as to General Walker and Richard Nixon?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I have not.
Mr. JENNER. You have seen pictures of, and you have heard about, the rifle which was allegedly employed by the assassin of President Kennedy in that assassination?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And you have seen pictures of it?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did you at any time prior to November 2.3, 1963, ever see the rifle which is alleged to have been employed in the assassination of president Kennedy?
Mr. OSWALD. I have not.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see at your home or any place a rifle of that character in the possession of your brother, Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I have not,.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see any rifle of that character in or about any premises that he might or was occupying or that Marina was occupying?
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Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I have not. I might further state I never knew him to own but one firearm in his entire life, and that was a .22 caliber rifle that he purchased from New Orleans, La., and on my visit to New Orleans, La., in 1955 on my discharge from the service, I purchased this from Lee for a total of $10. He had given approximately $16 for the rifle. It would not fire.
And I gave him $10 for it, and took it back to Fort Worth and worked on it and put it into working condition.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have any discussion, did any discussion take place between you and Lee, or in your presence, other than that which you have testified heretofore up to this moment, of his use of a firearm, be it a pistol or a rifle, during the period from June 1962 to, and including, the 23d of November, 1963?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I had not.
Mr. JENNER. Nothing of that character occurred between you or in your presence and his presence during all of that period of time?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. I might say what they were saying at my home in Fort Worth, Tex., on Davenport Street during the first week, Lee and I were discussing hunting and so forth out at my in-laws' farm, I did produce at that time all weapons in my possession in front of Marina and Lee. They made Marina Oswald nervous, and shortly after looking at my weapons, I returned them to their proper place, and that was the only time that I have ever seen him handle a weapon from the time that he returned from Russia in 1962 until the reports of present-day activities along that line that he handled a weapon.
Mr. JENNER. Just to nail down this subject, I take it then that at no time from the time of his return in June of 1962 to the United States to and including November 23, 1962, did you ever see him in the possession of a firearm of any kind or character?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. If I may, sir, referring to the hunting trip that we did take at the farm in June of 1962
Mr. JENNER. Other than that to which you have already testified?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct, at no time.
Mr. JENNER. And you had that in mind when you answered my question in the negative?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. I was excluding your prior testimony.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. Thank you.
Mr. JENNER. Apart from newspaper photographs, have you ever to your knowledge seen Jack Ruby on television?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I have not.
Mr. JENNER. Or a person said to be Jack Ruby?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I have not.
Mr. McKENZIE. Use his full name.
Mr. JENNER. Jack Rubenstein.
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I have not.
Mr. JENNER. Have you ever been in any establishment allegedly operated by him or in which he has an interest, to your knowledge?
Mr. OSWALD. Would you mind, sir, giving me the names of those establishments?
Mr. JENNER. I will do that from other papers later on, but to your present knowledge, without refreshing or stimulating your recollection, could you give me an answer?
Mr. OSWALD. I have not, sir.
Mr. McKENZIE. Now would you go on and ask him, or would you prefer to
Mr. JENNER. Would you mind waiting? I am just taking care of Representative Ford's questions at the moment.
Your mother testified that an FBI agent had shown her a picture of some man on the evening of Saturday, November 23, 1963. She testified further that later, after your brother had been killed, she saw a picture of Jack Ruby or Jack Rubenstein alias Jack Ruby in the newspaper, and that she exclaimed in your presence that Ruby was the man whose picture had been shown to her on a Saturday night, November 23, 1963, by an agent of the FBI. Does that refresh your recollection?
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Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And did that take place?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, it did.
Mr. JENNER. Would you please testify or tell us of where that took place, who was present and what the circumstances were?
Mr. OSWALD. That took place at the Inn of the Six Flags in Arlington Tex., during the week of November 25, 1963, in the presence I believe of two more Secret Service agents, and perhaps an Arlington police officer in the rooms that were assigned at the Inn of the Six Flags, and I feel like at least one of the Secret Service agents that was present--
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, sir, you used the expression "and I feel like". Do you mean you are speculating?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe, is that a better expression, sir?
Mr. JENNER. Go ahead, and then I will ask you on what basis you base that belief.
Mr. OSWALD. All right, sir. I believe that the Secret Service agents, at least one of them was Mr. Mike Howard.
Mr. JENNER. That is your best recollection?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. That is what you mean by believe?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. OSWALD. I testify it was either two or three Secret Service agents present, and my best recollection, another Secret Service agent would be Mr. Charles I. Kunkel, and if my recollection serves me correctly, there was an Arlington police officer at the time. It would be either Mr. Bob Parsons or Mr. Jeff Gan.
Mr. JENNER. These were the persons present on this occasion?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe this to be.
Mr. JENNER. And what occurred and what was said?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe, to my best recollection, mother was in another room and she had received a copy of a newspaper which I cannot identify, that reportedly had a picture of Mr. Rubenstein or Mr. Jack Ruby, and mother exclaimed to me----
Mr. JENNER. Did she come into the room in which you gentlemen were?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, she did.
Mr. JENNER. And she had the newspaper in her possession?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, she did.
Mr. JENNER. And she walked among you and said something?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, she did.
Mr. JENNER. Did she exhibit anything?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, she did.
Mr. JENNER. What did she exhibit?
Mr. OSWALD. A picture that I could recognize as a picture now of a man known as Jack Ruby.
Mr. JENNER. That was a picture in the newspaper?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. All right, proceed.
Mr. OSWALD. And she stated to me
Mr. JENNER. In the presence of the others?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that on Saturday night, November 23, 1963, that two FBI agents had gone to the Executive Inn in Dallas, to the rooms where mother and Marina and Baby June Lee Oswald were staying, and that at this particular time Marina was taking a bath or a shower, mother had just completed hers, she was in a robe, she did not open the door fully, that one of the FBI agents produced a picture that she stated was Mr. Jack Ruby, and that was the text of it.
Mr. DULLES. You did not see the picture that was shown by the Secret Service man?
Mr. OSWALD. The FBI man?
Mr. DULLES. The FBI man.
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not. I was not there.
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Mr. JENNER. Assuming it was shown, it was not exhibited to you. Your mother stated that a picture of Mr. Jack Ruby had been exhibited to her by an FBI man.
Mr. OSWALD. That a picture that an FBI man----
Mr. JENNER. On the Saturday night, November 23, 1963.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that the FBI man exhibited a picture, and mother said that she recognized from the newspaper to be Mr. Jack Ruby.
Mr. JENNER. Did any of the gentlemen present say anything when your mother made that statement?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe they did, sir.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Give us your best recollection of what was said, and if you can identify the person, do so, but in any event tell us what was said, if you can identify them only by stating he was a police officer or a Secret Service man or an FBI agent, then do that.
Mr. OSWALD. I believe Mr. Mike Howard of the United States Secret Service looked at the picture in the newspaper and said something to mother in the line or in the nature of "Are you sure" and so forth like that. It was very brief, and she was saying that she was positive.
Mr. JENNER. She responded that she was certain of it?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that she was certain that the photograph shown to her on Saturday night, November 23, 1963, was the man in the picture being identified as Mr. Jack Ruby, the killer of my brother, Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mr. DULLES. Did she say anything about what the officer who had shown her this photograph had said to her, or explained why he was showing that. picture?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe, sir, she did indicate that they wanted to show it to Marina for identification, and mother explained to him that she was in the shower and was fixing to go to bed, and they were very tired.
Mr. JENNER. Now would you give us please your opinion and judgment as to the stability of your mother?
Mr. OSWALD. Prior to November 22, 1963--correction, prior to November 24, 1963, I believed her to be a stable average person. However, during the week of November 24, including the date of November 24, 1963, through Friday of that week, which was November 29, 1963, due to the happenings and the events that had ensued from the November 22d afternoon through Sunday of November 23d, it is my opinion that at first that her reactions were quite normal, and to be expected.
However, it is my opinion during the latter part of that week, from approximately Wednesday, November 27, 1963, that her reactions to other matters related to the events of November 22 and November 24, 1963, were abnormal reactions.
Mr. JENNER. Did those normal or abnormal reactions continue to the best of your knowledge thereafter?
Mr. OSWALD. Since I have not seen her, sir, since Friday November 29, 1963, I have talked with her on telephone calls only, I have no opinion on that at this time.
Mr. JENNER. One way or the other?
Mr. OSWALD. One way or the other.
Mr. JENNER. Whether continued or not continued?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You have testified that you thought you had an influence on Lee's Joining the Marines. That is an influence of an example rather than a direct influence, that is any direct contact by you suggesting that if he entered the service he should enter the Marines?
Mr. OSWALD. That would be correct, sir. It would be as an example.
Mr. JENNER. You mentioned a Mr. Gregory having visited at your home. Will you identify him, please?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe his given name, sir, is Mr. Peter Gregory, but I am confused a little bit about his son. His son's name is Paul Gregory, or vice versa.
Mr. JENNER. It is Peter.
Mr. OSWALD. Thank you. Mr. Peter Gregory came to my residence in Fort Worth, Tex. on 7313 Davenport Street.
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Mr. JENNER. Approximately when, please?
Mr. OSWALD. Two occasions, the first occasion being approximately the last week in June, 1962.
Mr. JENNER. What was that occasion?
Mr. OSWALD. He had come over to see Lee and meet Marina and talk with them in his native Russian language.
Mr. JENNER. Was he accompanied by anyone?
Mr. OSWALD. Not on this first occasion, sir, if my memory serves me correctly. I believe he was by himself.
Mr. JENNER. Was anything said in your presence that you understood, having in mind that he spoke Russian at least in part of that occasion, as to how he became aware that Lee and Marina were residing with you temporarily?
Mr. OSWALD. We were expecting Mr. Gregory to come by that night. The preceding 2 or 3 days, I understood from Lee, that when he inquired at one of the bureaus of the Texas employment agencies in Fort Worth, that someone that he had talked to about a job had set up an appointment with Lee to go see Mr. Gregory, since Lee could speak Russian and write the Russian language, they thought perhaps Mr. Gregory might know of some contact that he could place Lee with, where Lee might obtain a job speaking and writing the Russian language. I understood from Lee----
Mr. JENNER. That is the result of discussions in your presence in your home?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. By Lee and Marina?
Mr. OSWALD. By Lee to me.
Mr. JENNER. Lee to you?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. And I understood that----
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Oswald, if you could, if it is the result of Lee having told you, would you please state it in those terms rather than that you understood, because your understanding may be based on hearsay that is not the fact.
Mr. OSWALD. Lee in our conversation told me that he went to Mr. Gregory's office on the first occasion to meet Mr. Gregory.
Mr. JENNER. And that would be before this last week in June when Mr. Gregory visited your home?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. DULLES. What is Mr. Gregory's profession, do you happen to know?
Mr. OSWALD. He was a consultant geologist. On this first occasion that Lee spent 1 or 2 hours talking with
Mr. Gregory, and at the end of this occasion, Mr. Gregory gave Lee a letter to the effect, which I did read---
Mr. JENNER. Did your brother Lee exhibit this letter to you?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, he did.
Mr. JENNER. Have you seen the letter from the time that you read it to the present time?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, 1 have not.
Mr. JENNER. And as far as you know the letter doesn't exist. You don't know whether it exists?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Would you please recite the content of it as you now recall it?
Mr. OSWALD. That it stated that Lee Harvey Oswald was competent to speak and write the Russian language fluently. That is my general remembrance of this letter.
Mr. JENNER. Was it signed? Did it have a signature?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, it did.
Mr. JENNER. Was it on a letterhead?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe it was, sir.
Mr. DULLES. Was Mr. Gregory a Russian by origin as far as you know?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, he was.
Mr. JENNER. Did your brother tell you that?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, he did.
Mr. DULLES. Was he a naturalized American, or don't you know?
Mr. OSWALD. This I do not know, sir. But during this conversation, he told me about Mr. Gregory to the extent that he had come from Russia approximately
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Mr. DULLES. This is your brother now?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, talking to me. Approximately 40 years prior to that time.
Mr. JENNER. So he had been in this country for approximately 40 years?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. It was not long after that conversation in which your brother Lee reported these things to you that Mr. Gregory visited at your home the last week in June of 1962, is that correct?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, air, approximately the last week in June 1962.
Mr. DULLES. Did your brother tell you where he had gotten to know Mr. Gregory?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, he had.
Mr. JENNER. Would you please relate that?
Mr. OSWALD. Through the lady at the Texas employment agency.
Mr. JENNER. He had gone to the Texas employment agency and had an interview with that lady?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. In charge of the agency?
Mr. OSWALD. One of the personnel working within the agency.
Mr. JENNER. Did your brother say to you that she had suggested Mr. Gregory as a possible source?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. With regard to employment?
Mr. OSWALD. That she had volunteered to call Mr. Gregory on his behalf to set up an appointment where Lee could go by and see him and talk with him in relation to employment.
Mr. JENNER. Did your brother indicate that that was his first acquaintance or knowledge of the fact that a person named Peter Gregory existed?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; he did.
Mr. JENNER. And he said that to you affirmatively?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. In the course of that conversation, did your brother report to you any recommendations by the lady in charge of the agency with respect to his contacting any other persons who were of Russian derivation or who could or might speak Russian and be of possible assistance to your brother in obtaining employment?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, he did not.
Mr. JENNER. The conversation was confined to a Mr. Peter Gregory?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And have you now given us all you can recall as to that conversation?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I have.
Mr. JENNER. And Mr. Gregory visited your home the last week in June or at least approximately then?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. He came alone to the best of your recollection?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And it was a visit, intended as a visit with Lee and Marina primarily.
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. sir.
Mr. JENNER. You were present when he came to your home?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I was.
Mr. JENNER. Did he exhibit any acquaintance, prior acquaintance with Lee or with Marina?
Mr. OSWALD. He certainly recognized Lee. He did not recognize Marina.
Mr. JENNER. Was he introduced to her?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, he was.
Mr. JENNER. On that occasion?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, he was.
Mr. JENNER. In your presence?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
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Mr. JENNER. And it is your impression that he was not acquainted with her prior to that time?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Or she with him?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. DULLES. Could I ask one question here. Do you know of any other close friends of Lee's?
Mr. OSWALD. At that time, sir, I was not aware of any others.
Mr. DULLES. The Fords you met later, I believe, did you not?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct.
Mr. DULLES. And are they Russian or is one of them Russian?
Mr. OSWALD. His wife is originally from Russia.
Mr. JENNER. How did you discover that, Mr. Oswald?
Mr. OSWALD. That Mrs. Ford was Russian?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. OSWALD. I believe Marina told me.
Mr. JENNER. Representative Ford has asked that that subject be inquired into also, sir.
Mr. DULLES. Won't you pursue it then if you wish, in whatever way?
Mr. JENNER. Would you relate to us to the best of your recollection the names of Lee's friends or associates from his return to this country in June 1962 up to and including November 22, 1963?
Mr. OSWALD. The only ones I was aware of, sir, other than members of the family, was Mr. Peter Gregory and his son, Paul Gregory.
Mr. JENNER. May I stop you at that moment. You say his son Paul Gregory. Did you come to meet Paul Gregory as well as Peter?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. JENNER. On some occasion subsequent to this last week in June of '62?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. JENNER. Had you known that there was a Paul Gregory at the time Peter Gregory visited your home in June of '62?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. He might possibly have mentioned his son at that time, but I do not recall that he did.
Mr. JENNER. You don't have any specific recollection of it?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not.
Mr. JENNER. When did you meet Paul Gregory?
Mr. OSWALD. Approximately 2 or 3 days later.
Mr. JENNER. Under what circumstances?
Mr. OSWALD. Mr. Peter Gregory and Mr. Paul Gregory both came to the house.
Mr. JENNER. And this is the second occasion of Mr. Gregory being in your home, to which you have already alluded?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And what was the purpose of their visit at your house on that occasion?
Mr. OSWALD. To meet with Lee and Marina again, and to the best of my remembrance, for his son, Paul Gregory, who was attending either the University of Oklahoma or Oklahoma University, or Oklahoma State University, at which he was studying the Russian language.
And I believe at this time he stated he was a junior at the university, and that he wanted to be around others who spoke the Russian language, besides his father, to improve his language, or his knowledge of the Russian language.
Mr. JENNER. Was that stated in your presence?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, it was.
Mr. JENNER. In this case, you now identified?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. By Paul Gregory?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Did he attempt to converse, or converse with Lee, and/or with Marina in Russian on that occasion?
Mr. OSWALD. He did with both.
Mr. JENNER. And on both occasions did Peter Gregory confer or talk with Lee and Marina or either of them or both of them in Russian?
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Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, they did.
Mr. JENNER. Were you forewarned or did you have notice that the Gregorys, Paul and Peter, were to visit you on the second occasion?
Mr. OSWALD. I do not recall, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall any conversation you had with your brother in advance of that visit, or with Marina on that subject?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I do not recall any.
Mr. JENNER. Are those the only two occasions that you ever saw or talked with Peter Gregory?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, it was not.
Mr. JENNER. When subsequent to the second visit to your home, the first time subsequent thereto, did you see or speak with Peter Gregory?
Mr. OSWALD. I spoke again with Mr. Peter Gregory on Sunday morning, November 24, 1963.
Mr. JENNER. So it was an occasion subsequent to the death of President Kennedy?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Where did that take place?
Mr. OSWALD. At Howard Johnson's Restaurant on the turnpike between Fort Worth and Dallas.
Mr. JENNER. HOW did that come about?
Mr. OSWALD. I was to meet Mr. Gregory and two Secret Service agents at that establishment, to proceed with them from there to the Executive Inn at Dallas, Tex.
Mr. JENNER. Who had arranged that rendezvous?
Mr. OSWALD. By mutual consent between myself and the Secret Service agent, Mike Howard.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Howard suggested it?
Mr. OSWALD. He suggested this as a point of rendezvous on our way to Dallas.
Mr. DULLES. I believe this is described in your diary, is it not?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it is.
Mr. JENNER. Did you see or speak with Peter Gregory--have you seen or spoken with Peter Gregory at any time subsequent to this occasion?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have.
Mr. JENNER. Now, first--when was that?
Is it recorded in your diary?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I do not believe it is in my diary.
Mr. JENNER. And when did that meeting take place? The one you now have in mind.
Mr. OSWALD. On three or four occasions during the week of November 25, 1963.
Mr. JENNER. In what city or town?
Mr. OSWALD. At the Inn of the Six Flags, in Arlington, Tex.
Mr. JENNER. And was he visiting there?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he was there voluntarily to act as an interpreter between the United States Secret Service and Marina N. Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. I see.
Subsequent to that time, have you seen or spoken with Peter Gregory?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Now, you were seeking to report to us the friends and acquaintances of your brother and your sister-in-law subsequent to their return to the United States in June of 1962. Now, who next in addition to Paul and Peter Gregory?
Mr. OSWALD. None, sir.
Mr. JENNER. None?
Mr. OSWALD. None.
Mr. JENNER. Were the Fords-friends of your brother Lee and your sister-in-law Marina?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And you became acquainted with them, when for the first time?
Mr. McKENZIE. Last Tuesday, a week ago this past Tuesday, on February 11, 1964.
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Mr. JENNER. You were unacquainted with either of them prior to that time?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And you have already testified about the Paines. And you can recall none other--no other persons?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Friend or acquaintance of either Marina or of your brother Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr. OSWALD. Other than the ones I have described.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. DULLES. Plus, of course, the Paines, whom you have already discussed, and others you may have discussed.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have any knowledge of your brother Lee's defection or alleged defection other than that which you read in the newspapers?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I had not.
Mr. JENNER. And other--other than there might be a reference to that in the correspondence you have produced for us?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have any possible reason to believe that your brother Lee Harvey Oswald knew Jack Ruby, or Jack Rubinstein, alias Jack Ruby?
Mr. OSWALD. Sir, are you asking for my opinion?
Mr. JENNER. I am asking if you have any knowledge first--anything upon which. you can base an opinion.
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I do not.
Mr. JENNER. That he did or might have had an acquaintance with Jack Ruby or Jack Rubinstein?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not.
Mr. JENNER. I will ask you the same question as to Officer Tippit.
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. I do not.
Mr. DULLES. With regard to Jack Ruby, you hesitated a moment.
Do you have anything else in your mind about that that you wanted to or could add?
Mr. OSWALD. I just misinterpreted his question as to whether or not he wanted my opinion, rather than any facts that I might have.
Mr. DULLES. Well, let's ask for your opinion now.
Mr. JENNER. Now, we will go to your opinion.
Do you have an opinion?
Mr. OSWALD. Based on the newspaper articles that appeared during the week of November 25, 1963, at which time two reported employees of Mr. Jack Ruby, a man and a woman, stated to newspaper reporters that they had seen Lee Harvey Oswald in Mr. Ruby's establishment, known as the Carousel Club, and also on one occasion either or both of these reported witnesses stated that had seen Mr. Ruby speaking to Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. And it is on the basis of that newspaper report and only that that you voice this opinion?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.
I might further elaborate on my opinion that at various times through magazine articles and television programs, indicating the route taken by my brother Lee from the place of his boarding house, or apartment, and prior to his capture, was in a direct or approximately a direct line to Mr. Ruby's apartment.
Mr. JENNER. Are you acquainted with the decision which your sister-in-law Marina, reached not to reside with your mother?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I most certainly am.
Mr. JENNER. And did you take part in that decision, or were you present during the course of any event that resulted in her ultimate decision?
Mr. OSWALD. I would say that that decision, sir, was 90 percent my decision, and only 10 percent Marina N. Oswald's decision.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Now, as to that event, would you please tell us the course it took, your participation in it, where it occurred, and as much as you now recall about it?
Mr. OSWALD. This took place at the Inn----
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Mr. JENNER. Before you answer--it is not recorded in your diary, is it?
Mr. McKENZIE. The diary would be the best evidence of that.
Mr. JENNER. In order that I don't try to examine over 20 pages----
Mr. DULLES. I have just read the diary, and I do not recall it.
Mr. MCKENZIE. I don't, either. I don't believe it is.
Mr. JENNER. Proceed.
Mr. OSWALD. This occurred at the Inn of the Six Flags in Arlington, Tex.
Mr. JENNER. Fix the time.
Mr. OSWALD. On Thursday morning, November 28, 1963, at which time I talked to Mrs. Marina N. Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. In whose presence, if anyone?
Mr. OSWALD. If memory serves me correct, sir, in the presence of Mr. Jim Martin, and perhaps one Secret Service agent that I cannot recall vividly enough to identify by name. That Mr. Martin--if I may back up, sir. We did have a Secret Service agent there. I do recall he was Mr. Gopadze, who was acting as an interpreter. And I do believe that Mr. Gopadze acted as an interpreter at the time when we discussed with Marina the possibility of her moving to Mr. Jim Martin's home in Dallas, Tex., as a permanent guest or for as long as she wished to with her children, and I believe at this time she asked my opinion of this, whether or not I thought this was the thing to do, and my advice to her was that it was, and that she was going to abide by my decision that this was the thing to do at that time.
Mr. JENNER. This discussion occurred in the presence of these people you have mentioned?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Included in that discussion, was the alternative of her residing with your mother discussed?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it was not, because I did not look to that as an alternative.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know whether Marina--had there been any discussion prior thereto, to your knowledge, of any possibility or suggestion by anyone that Marina undertake residence with your mother?
Mr. OSWALD. Not to my knowledge, sir, was there any discussion between me and Marina or myself and my mother that Marina was going to reside in her place.
Mr. JENNER. As a possibility?
Mr. OSWALD. Not to my knowledge, sir. I might----
Mr. JENNER. Whether the discussion was directly with you or not, was the subject of the possibility--it is always possible-- of Marina residing with your mother--was it raised during this period of time? Did you know of anybody ever suggesting it, or it being considered--apart from whether there was discussion with you directly?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, to my knowledge I was not aware of any situation such as that.
Mr. JENNER. I forgot now.
Did you say Marina was present during the course of this discussion?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And did she say anything on the subject through the interpreter?
Mr. OSWALD. If I may, sir, go to the preceding day of Thursday, November 28, 1963, to Wednesday, November 27, 1963, at which time I was advised by Secret Service agent Mike Howard of the offer of Mr. Jim Martin to take Marina and the children into the family, into his family, and raise them as he would his own members of the family. I did not discuss at first with Marina this offer. I did discuss with Mr. Jim Martin, prior to discussing with Marina N. Oswald, this possibility.
Mr. JENNER. This possibility being what possibility?
Mr. OSWALD. Of Marina accepting this offer.
Mr. JENNER. Of Mr. Martin?
Mr. OSWALD. Of Mr. Martin's, that is correct.
After my discussion with Mr. Martin on this question----
Mr. JENNER. In that discussion, were any alternatives discussed?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, there was not. It was a discussion only about Mr.
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Martin's offer to her with me in the presence of two Secret Service agents at lunch on that day, Wednesday, November 27, 1963. At the end of that discussion, I considered in my own mind for a number of hours, perhaps three or four hours, at which time I spoke to Marina N. Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. At the Six Flags?
Mr. OSWALD. At the Inn of the Six Flags, in a motel room.
Mr. JENNER. Anybody else present?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. OSWALD. They were present in the room, but we were in a separate room.
Mr. JENNER. They didn't take part in the discussion?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
At which time I pointed out Mr. Martin to Marina Oswald, and related to her as best I could at that time his offer to take Marina into his home, and the children into his home.
Mr. JENNER. Let me interrupt you.
You say you pointed out Mr. Martin to your sister-in-law, Marina?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. I take it--am I correct from that that she had not become acquainted with him?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I believe she had, but at that time she had seen so many people come in and out of there, that she did not remember which man was Mr. Martin.
And, at this time, I did point out Mr. Martin, so that she would know him from then on.
Mr. JENNER. Was any question raised about her residing at the home of a person who was a complete stranger to her? And about whom you knew little or nothing?
Mr. OSWALD. At this time I was considering this, and I believe this was my attempt to have Marina consider this, of moving into a home with a complete strange family.
Mr. JENNER. In other words, you were raising a question in your own mind on the subject?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Up to that time of Mr. Martin's offer, not recalling anybody that I stated it to--I assumed it my full responsibility to have Marina and her children move into my home in Denton, Texas.
Mr. JENNER. Had you suggested that to her?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Or to anybody else?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Had the suggestion been made to you?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, it had not.
Mr. DULLES. Was going back to the Paines in the picture at that time?
Mr. OSWALD. To some extent, and that was excluded entirely by me, sir.
Mr. JENNER. For what reason?
Mr. OSWALD. For my observations of Mr. and Mrs. Paine at the Dallas police office, as previously testified.
Mr. JENNER. The antipathy to them that arose, or that you had when you met Mr. Paine, and Mrs. Paine that evening?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Did Marina say anything to you on the subject of her desire or possibility of her residing--returning to reside with the Paines?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, she did.
Mr. JENNER. And what did she say on that subject?
Mr. OSWALD. That she thought she could go back up to Mr. and Mrs. Paine and live.
Mr. JENNER. Did she indicate that that would be entirely acceptable to her?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Even desirable to her?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And what was your response to that?
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Mr. OSWALD. I indicated to her that I thought that that was not the thing to do.
Mr. JENNER. Did you say that to her?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I did.
Mr. JENNER. Affirmatively?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And what did she say in response to that?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe, sir, to the best of my memory she wanted to know why I did not want her to return with her children to Mr. and Mrs. Paine.
Mr. JENNER. That is a normal response. What did you say to that?
Mr. OSWALD. As best I could I indicated to her I didn't think they were the proper or correct people for her to be associated with.
Mr. JENNER. Well, that is a term of conclusion, Mr. Oswald. Would you please tell us--were you more specific than that, or just say, "I don't think they are the proper people"?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. It is very difficult.
Mr. JENNER. Try and reconstruct this conversation as best you can.
Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Jenner, he is trying his best to reconstruct the conversation, and I think he has testified to the best of his recollection.
Mr. DULLES. Are you tired at all?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I am not tired. Thank you, sir.
Mr. McKENZIE. Let me ask you one question, if I may.
Mr. JENNER. Could he answer the question I have just put to him first?
Mr. MCKENZIE. Surely.
Mr. OSWALD. May I, sir, in my own way?
Mr. DULLES. Do you object to the question?
Mr. McKENZIE. No, I don't object to it, Mr. Dulles. I don't think that Robert being a layman knows what a conclusion is insofar as the way the question was framed or insofar as the way it was responded to. And I think he is trying to answer your question.
Mr. JENNER. I don't mean to suggest otherwise.
But the witness, as always--this is not criticism of this witness--they do tend to speak in terms of conclusions. I am seeking as best you are able to do to reconstruct this event and recite what occurred.
Mr. DULLES. Would you restate the question, or rephrase it, whichever you wish to do?
Mr. JENNER. When Marina indicated to you her desire to return to the Paines and live with the Paines, and you responded as you have now testified, that you thought that that would be unwise, and they were not the kind of people with whom she should reside, would you please call on your recollection so as to state, to the extent that you can, exactly what you said to her in that respect?
Mr. OSWALD. My recollection of that, sir--I stated to her, because of her limited knowledge of English, that no--perhaps with some hand signals accompanying my "no" that this was not the thing to do. And I perhaps pointed to myself and indicated let me help her on this line--something of that nature, sir.
That is the best I can do.
Mr. JENNER. Did you indicate to her by sign or by expression or statement that you were suspicious of the Paines or that your reaction of that--was that Saturday night, did you say?
Mr. OSWALD. No, this was a Wednesday.
Mr. JENNER. Wednesday night--had led you to have some reservations about them?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. I perhaps attempted to give her some more indication on that. But due to the difficulty at that time of the language barrier, and her limited English, and she, I believe, was agreeable in accepting my explanation, no matter how brief it was--because, at this time, she was certainly looking to me for advice in trying to follow my wishes as best as I could get them over to her.
Mr. DULLES. May I just add for the record that the Commission realizes
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that Mr. and Mrs. Paine were separated or were living separately, and it was probably going back to Mrs. Paine, although I understand Mr. Paine from time to time would visit there.
Mr. OSWALD. That is my understanding, too, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And was that the understanding at the time you gave Marina this advice?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it was.
Mr. DULLES. Do you know whether Mr. Paine stayed there from time to time, or he just visited his wife? I understand they are separated, and not divorced? Isn't that correct?
Mr. JENNER. That is my understanding.
Mr. OSWALD. That is my understanding, also.
And in answer to your question, sir, I became aware of this on night, November 23, 1963, at the Dallas police office.
Mr. JENNER. Aware of the separation?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. As the Paines were about to depart with the children and my mother. And the statement was made by Mr. Paine that he would--I believe this to be my best recollection--that he would take them out there and return to his apartment, at which time the looks on both my mother's and myself's faces asked the question to Mrs. Paine, without saying anything, and she said, "Well, it is a difficult situation, I will explain it on the way."
Mr. JENNER. And that increased your antipathy?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it did.
Mr. JENNER. And the decision was made, as you have related then, that Marina would reside with the Martins?
Mr. OSWALD. Not on Wednesday night, sir.
On Thursday, the ensuing night.
Mr. JENNER. The following day?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And you have told us about that.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Now, you had occasion to observe, did you not, the treatment of FBI agents of your mother, at least in your presence? Their attitude towards her and their treatment of her?
Mr. OSWALD. Sir, I do not recall any FBI agents in the presence of my mother.
Mr. JENNER. You do not?
Mr. OSWALD. If I may, sir--I believe you have reference to the United States Secret Service agents there.
Mr. JENNER. No. I was going to ask you that. But Representative Ford has a question which he has limited, however, to the FBI, so I did want to cover that.
You have no basis for an opinion, then, as to the treatment of your mother, Marguerite, accorded to her by the--by FBI agents?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. You might have an opinion, but you have no--well, I will withdraw that.
Now, I ask you, likewise, with respect to the Secret Service agents.
Mr. OSWALD. There was some friction with one agent and my mother, whom she seemed to resent very harshly, any time this agent spoke to her.
Mr. JENNER. You used the word "harshly." Does that include "unjustly" in your opinion?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it would not.
Mr. JENNER. Did you share the opinion that the Secret Service agent you have in mind was treating her harshly?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I would not be of that opinion. And the Secret Service agent in question here is Mr. Charlie Kunkel.
Mr. JENNER. During this period, did you have a good impression of him?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I did.
Mr. JENNER. Having in mind all of the circumstances, and the stresses, and his duties, do you have an opinion as to whether he accorded her normal and expected courtesy and proper treatment?
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Mr. OSWALD. Only on one occasion I might have a hesitation to give a positive answer to that, sir. This occurred at the Inn of the Six Flags, in Arlington, Texas. As Mr. Kunkel was going out the front door one day--I do not recall the day--I would say this would be approximately Wednesday, November 27, 1963--there was a brief exchange at the doorway between Mr. Kunkel and my mother, of which I am attempting to recall, at which time my mother stated to him to the best of my remembrance, that "Please, sir, don't say anything to me at all."
And Mr. Kunkel's reply was--and he was irritated--that he would not unless he had to, and for her not to please say anything to him.
And that was the end of that.
Mr. JENNER. That is the only harshness, if you would call it harshness, that you observed occurring between any Secret Service agent and your mother?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Your mother has made an assertion before the Commission that she believes that the FBI should have interviewed her, and she asserts that the FBI did not interview her.
Do you have any information on that subject?
Mr. OSWALD. Are we referring to the period of the week of November 25, sir?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. OSWALD. May I have your question again, please?
(The reporter read the pending question.)
Mr. OSWALD. During the week of November 25, 1963, my mother, Mrs. Marguerite C. Oswald, was not interviewed by FBI agents.
I might add nor myself by the FBI agents.
And the only person out there, to my knowledge, that was interviewed by the FBI agents was Mrs. Marina N. Oswald.
Mr. DULLES. You had been interviewed, though, at a previous time by FBI agents, had you not?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. DULLES. I think that is indicated in your diary.
Mr. JENNER. I will touch on that subject in due course.
But Representative Boggs' area of questioning is confined to your mother. Do you have any--do you know why the FBI did not interview your mother?
Mr. OSWALD. The FBI did not arrive at the Inn of the Six Flags in Arlington, Texas, until, to the best of my memory, Wednesday, November 27, 1963. There is a possibility this might have been Tuesday, November 26th. But I do believe it was Wednesday.
And their purpose of coming out there at that time, as stated to me by a United States Secret Service man, Mike Howard, was to interview Marina N. Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. And did they do so?
Mr. OSWALD. They did, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And did they interview your mother?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, they did not.
Mr. JENNER. Did they interview you?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, they did not.
If I may, sir--in reply to your question whether or not they interviewed Mrs. Marina N. Oswald at that time, they attempted to interview her at that time.
Mr. JENNER. Was there an interpreter present?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, there was. It was Mr. Lee Gopadze of the United States Secret Service.
Mr. JENNER. And you emphasize the word "attempt". Would you describe the circumstances and what occurred?
Mr. OSWALD. When the FBI agents arrived there I can identify one of them as a Mr. Brown, even though I know there are two or three Mr. Browns that I have met in the FBI--I do not know his initials--the other man I cannot remember his name. When the two agents and Mr. Gopadze came in, Marina immediately identified or recognized one of the agents who she had talked to before, and it is my understanding now, at the Paines' home in Irving, Texas.
Mr. JENNER. When?
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Mr. OSWALD. It is my understanding some time in the early part of 1963, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And did Marina state that, or did someone state that in your presence?
Mr. OSWALD. This came to my knowledge, sir, after the departure of the FBI agents on this particular day.
Mr. JENNER. Through what source?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe, sir, through, to the best of my memory--through Mr. Lee Gopadze, who acted as an interpreter.
Mr. JENNER. Was Marina present when you were afforded that information?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe she was, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And did she have an aversion to being interviewed by the FBI agent on this occasion?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, she did.
Mr. JENNER. And she expressed that aversion?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, she did.
Mr. JENNER. Was the reason given in your presence?
Mr. OSWALD. That she did not----
Mr. JENNER. Was it--yes or no?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. By whom; Mr. Gopadze, by interpretation, interpreting Marina?
Mr. OSWALD. There, again, sir, this was knowledge given to me after their departure.
Mr. JENNER. Yes--but through what source did you obtain it?
Mr. OSWALD. Through Mr. Gopadze, in the presence of Marina Oswald.
And other Secret Service agents.
Mr. JENNER. And what did he say as to her aversion?
Mr. OSWALD. That Marina had recognized this one FBI agent as a man who had come to the Paines' home in Irving, Texas, and perhaps at another location where they might have lived in Dallas, or the surrounding territory, and had questioned Lee on these occasions.
Mr. JENNER. In the home?
Mr. OSWALD. In or outside of the home. I do not know whether it took place on the inside--but within the immediate grounds of the home, at least.
Mr. DULLES. And was this early in 1963? Prior, anyway, to November 1963, was it not?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct. And that this particular one agent--not the Mr. Brown I have referred to, but the other gentleman that I do not recall his name--she had an aversion to speaking to him because she was of the opinion that he had harassed Lee in his interviews, and my observation of this at this time, at this particular interview, was attempting to start--I would say this was certainly so. His manner was very harsh sir.
Mr. JENNER. Harsh towards Marina?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, Mr, it most certainly was. And by the tone of conversation by Marina to Mr. Gopadze, who was interpreting----
Mr. JENNER. In your presence?
Mr. OSWALD. In my presence. And the tone of the reply between this gentle man and Mr. Gopadze, and back to Marina, it was quite evident there was a harshness there, and that Marina did not want to speak to the FBI at that time. And she was refusing to. And they were insisting, sir. And they implied in so many words, as I sat there--if I might state--with Secret Service Agent Gary Seals, of Mobile, Ala.--we were opening the first batch of mail that had come to Marina and Lee's attention, and we were perhaps just four or five feet away from where they were attempting this interview, and it came to my ears that they were implying that if she did not cooperate with the FBI agent there, that this would perhaps--I say, again, I am implying--in so
many words, that they would perhaps deport her from the United States and back to Russia.
I arose and called Mr. Mike Howard of the United States Secret Service into the back bathroom, and stated this to him. And I also stated that I realized there was some friction here between the United States Secret Service and the FBI to the extent that I was of the opinion that they did not want the FBI at that time to be aware of the tape recording that had been made of
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Marina N. Oswald, that she had been interviewed, in other words, by the United States Secret Service before the FBI arrived at the location.
Mr. JENNER. You mean that the Secret Service did not want the FBI to know that they had taped an interview with Marina?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. What was his response?
Mr. OSWALD. He said, "Robert, I cannot tell you what to do."
I did ask him if he would go over there to speak to him, and kind of tone it down--if they were going to get anything out of her, they would not get it that way.
And he said he would speak to her.
Approximately, at this time, the telephone rang, and he had to speak on the telephone.
I returned to my chair at the table where we were still opening mail, and again for the second time, the same implication was brought out.
Mr. JENNER. By the FBI agents?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, air.
Mr. JENNER. To Marina?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. In your presence?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. They spoke English?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Was the interpreter whom you named--was he participating?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. It was from the FBI agent, the other gentleman, not named Brown, to Mr. Gopadze, to Mrs. Oswald, from Mrs. Oswald back to Mr. Gopadze to the other gentleman.
Mr. JENNER. Proceed.
Mr. OSWALD. On the second occurrence of this implication, of the same implication, I arose again, and Mr. Howard was walking across the room, and I stopped him, and I told him for the second time, or requested for the second time that he please say something to them about that.
Mr. JENNER. Did you speak loudly enough to be overheard?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. I just asked Mr. Howard to please inform the FBI that she had, to the contrary, been very cooperative from the time she had been out there, up until their arrival. And, again, I referred to Mr. Howard the reference there of perhaps the friction, or the condition that I assumed, that they did not want the FBI aware of the tape recording at this time.
And his reply to me, he said, "Robert, do what you want to do. You certainly absolutely are free to say anything you want to say."
Mr. JENNER. And did you?
Mr. OSWALD. I certainly did, sir.
Mr. JENNER. What did you say? You went over to the agent?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I went over to Mr. Brown, the agent I knew, who was sitting at the end of the coffee table--it was a large round coffee table. And I sat there, and I spoke to him without saying so much about--anything about the tape recording. I did say to him--and I was shaking my finger at him, sir, I might say that--that I resented the implications that they were passing on to Marina, because of her apparent uncooperative attitude.
Mr. JENNER. Supposed, you mean?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
And that I knew for a fact that she had been very cooperative and highly cooperative.
And I returned to my chair at the table.
They attempted for another 5 or 10 minutes to interview Marina Oswald at that time, at which time Mr. Brown--he left the immediate area of interviewing there, and came over and started speaking to me.
I do not recall what our conversation was. I think perhaps it was on what had transpired out there prior to their arrival.
As the other gentlemen arose----
Mr. JENNER. Transpired where, prior to their arrival?
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Mr. OSWALD. Out at the Inn of the Six Flags, prior to the arrival of the FBI agents.
And as the other FBI agent arose rather disgustedly to end the attempted interview, he walked to the door,
opened the door, and spoke very harshly to Mr. Brown, who was just kneeling down in front of me--he said, "Just cut it off right there, Mr. Brown."
Mr. Brown indicated he wanted to talk to me some more. He just motioned to him to cut it off right here.
Mr. Brown left and went outside with him.
About 2 minutes later Mr. Brown appeared again, and asked me to come outside, which I did. And then the agent apologized to me. He said he thought I was one of the police officers out there and not Robert Oswald--he was not aware of who I was. At which time we went into the adjoining set of rooms, in the presence of both agents, and Mr. Brown asked me if--it was his understanding that Marina had been interviewed and had been cooperative prior to their arrive out there, and I said this was so.
Mr. JENNER. Was the Secret Service mentioned as having interviewed her?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it was not.
Mr. JENNER. The only expression was that, had she been interviewed.
Mr. OSWALD. I believe, sir, that is correct.
Mr. Brown did use the term had she been interviewed. And my reply. I believe, verbatim would be--my answer to that question, sir, is yes.
Mr. JENNER. And the Secret Service, as the interviewers, had been mentioned?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. By you?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. By Mr. Brown?
Mr. OSWALD. Implied, sir, by Mr. Brown.
Mr. JENNER. Is that the end of that incident?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Representative Ford has a notation here to obtain from you all the details on when you knew that your brother Lee wished to return from Russia, and you have given us those details, have you not? The information and knowledge came to you through the correspondence which now has been identified and admitted in the record?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And you had no other source?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have any discussion with your mother with respect to supplying funds--either her doing so or your doing so--to your brother Lee when he was in Russia?
Mr. OSWALD. My mother did write me on one occasion, sir, requesting that----
Mr. JENNER. This is while he was in Russia?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. I believe at this time she was residing in Crowell, Texas.
Mr. JENNER. She wrote you a note?
Mr. OSWALD. Stating that if I wanted to help Lee in any way, that I had to go through her to do it to the extent that she was going to handle everything, and that she was demanding--and that was the word she used in the letter--that I do so.
Mr. JENNER. That you do what?
Mr. OSWALD. Send any funds that I might want to send to Lee to her, to forward to Lee.
This I did not do. sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did you respond to that letter?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not.
Mr. JENNER. Can you fix, approximately, when you received that letter?
Mr. OSWALD. Approximately July or August of 1961, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Other than that letter, did you have any--well, in addition to the letter, did you ever have a discussion with your mother on the subject matter of supplying funds for your brother while he was in Russia?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not.
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Mr. JENNER. And she had none with you, and none occurred in your presence?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, she did not.
Mr. JENNER. What part, if any, did you play in assisting, if you did assist, your brother Lee in his making of repayments of the funds he had borrowed from the State Department?
Mr. OSWALD. I did not assist him in any way, sir.
Mr. DULLES. He did not request it?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he did not. He wanted to do this on his own.
Mr. JENNER. Did you discuss that subject with him?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. JENNER. And did he so express himself?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did you offer to help him?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. JENNER. And he refused?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. At any time--let us confine it first to the period that your brother resided with you in your home, upon his return from Russia--did he express to you any opinion or make any comment on his regard for, or affection for, or lack of affection for, or regard for Marina?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he did not.
Mr. JENNER. Was the subject ever discussed between you during that month that he was at your home?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it was not.
Mr. JENNER. Was the subject ever discussed at any time thereafter?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it was not.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have occasion--obviously, you did--to observe the relationship between your brother Lee and your sister-in-law Marina, in their--as husband and wife?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did observe that.
Mr. JENNER. And would you please state what you observed in that respect?
Mr. OSWALD. I felt on two or three occasions that Lee's tone of voice to Marina--not understanding what was being said-- but by the general tone of voice, that he was being overbearing or forceful.
Mr. JENNER. Inconsiderate?
Mr. OSWALD. Sir?
Mr. JENNER. Inconsiderate?
Mr. OSWALD. Inconsiderate.
Mr. JENNER. Of her?
Mr. OSWALD. Of her--some little thing she might want to do.
I say some little thing--something that she was going to do there at the house or something, or was doing--I don't recall any specific incident.
Mr. DULLES. Do you recall her reaction?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes. sir; I do.
Mr. DULLES. What was it?
Mr. OSWALD. It was usually silence.
Mr. JENNER. Usually what, sir?
Mr. OSWALD. Silence.
Mr. JENNER. A silence that indicated resentment on her part, or rejection on her part, of comments your brother was making to her?
Mr. OSWALD. Generally, sir, I formed my opinion by the expression on her face, and her reaction as indicated, that it was not very pleasing to her to be perhaps reprimanded.
Mr. JENNER. In the presence of somebody else?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Tell us, if you will, please, from your observation of your brother and Marina, during all of the period of time up to and through Thanksgiving of 1962, her attitude towards your brother in the normal course.
Mr. OSWALD. I believe, sir, it would be described as just a normal attitude of a wife to a husband. They seemed affectionate--both of them appeared to be--and I believe this still to be so--very affectionate to the baby June Lee Oswald.
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Mr. JENNER. And it is your opinion, based on your observation during this period of time, up to and including August of 19-- Thanksgiving Day 1962--it is your opinion that they led a reasonably normal married life, mind all the problems that were facing them?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes sir; that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Did your brother ever discuss with you any incident in which he thought that Marina had been guilty of some misconduct--I don't mean sexual misconduct, but did he complain about her conduct?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he did not.
Mr. JENNER. Any kind or character, at any time?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he did not.
Mr. JENNER. Was there ever a discussion in your presence by anyone, your brother and/or your sister-in-law, on the subject of his having harmed her?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; there was not.
Mr. JENNER. The subject was never discussed in your presence?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it was not.
Mr. JENNER. By anyone?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did it come to your attention at any time prior to November 1962, or November 22, 1963, that your brother had inflicted some harm on your sister-in-law?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it did not.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see her when she had darkened eyes, as though a black eye had been inflicted upon her?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. JENNER. Or any other physical injury?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. JENNER. Your mother, in her appearance before the Commission, stated, and implied, at least, that your sister-in-law Marina could stand English and could read English--let's confine it to the period to and including November 22, 1963.
What is your opinion on that subject?
Mr. OSWALD. It is my opinion even now, sir, if I may go a little bit further, that her understanding of the English language is less what it appears to be. She does not understand a considerable amount that she, by her actions, appears to understand. This has come to my attention since her visit to Washington.
Mr. JENNER. You mean since she appeared before the Commission?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. She does not grasp enough, and by this I mean, sir, to any extent--perhaps it might be best if I compared that with my experience with my children, approximately a three or four year old--if that much.
Mr. JENNER. In other words, do I fairly state that your testimony, even to the present time, and including all of the period preceding the present time, in your contacts with her, it is your opinion that she has a very limited command of the English language, whether you speak in terms of reading or understanding or speaking?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
I might further qualify that, sir--that she could perhaps speak more English words than she can read or understand.
Mr. JENNER. And you do not, therefore, share your mother's expressed view and opinion that she understands the English language to a greater extent than, to use the vernacular--than she lets on?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Did your mother mention to you or has your mother mentioned to you at any time any--or asserted any claims on her part, there were any stolen documents, either stolen from her or stolen from any one else, that would be relevant to this matter?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; she has not.
Mr. DULLES. Has she spoken to you about the disposition of funds that
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might have come without a clear address or indication as to for whom they were intended as between herself and Marina?
Mr. OSWALD. No. sir; she has not.
Mr. JENNER. Now, Mr. Oswald, when your brother returned from Russia, was there ever an occasion, to the time of his death, when he discussed with you the subject as to why he had returned from Russia? This is, apart from the correspondence. Did you ever have a discussion with him on that subject, or he with you, or a discussion that occurred in your presence?
Mr. OSWALD. None, sir, that I recall.
Mr. JENNER. None whatsoever?
Mr. OSWALD. None.
Mr. JENNER. Now, is that likewise true of your sister-in-law? Did she ever discuss it in your presence, or with you?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; at no time has she.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever inquire of either of them on that subject?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not recall at any time discussing it.
Mr. JENNER. Nor were you present at any time when anyone else ever inquired of either of them on that subject, up to and including November 23, 1963?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I was not.
Mr. JENNER. I take it from previous questions that you have no knowledge of Marina ever having had a black eye or being otherwise molested or beaten by your brother, or anyone else.
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Were members of your family together, including Marina, to celebrate, to the extent it might have been celebrated, Christmas of 1963?
Mr. OSWALD. Christmas of 1963, sir?
Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir.
Mr. OSWALD. I am sorry--I misinterpreted that.
Christmas of 1963--Christmas Eve of 1963 my wife and I and my children traveled from our home in Denton to the Martin's residence in Dallas, Texas, and spent Christmas Eve, or the biggest part of that day, with Marina.
Mr. JENNER. Did you remain over to Christmas Day?
Mr. OSWALD. No. sir; we did not.
Mr. JENNER. Was your mother present on Christmas Eve while you were there?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; she was not.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know whether she was invited to attend?
Mr. OSWALD. No. sir; she was not.
Mr. JENNER. As far as you know, she didn't know you were attending there on Christmas Eve, is that correct?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion that occurred during the time of your visit on Christmas Eve, 1963, of your mother? Was she mentioned?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; she was not.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have an opinion as to whether the Secret Service kept your sister-in-law Marina secluded against her will following November 22, 1963?
Mr. OSWALD. I have an opinion, sir, that they did not keep her secluded.
Mr. JENNER. Then you do not--all right.
Representative Ford is particularly concerned as to how stable a person your mother is, which would be of interest, of course, I must tell you, to the Commission, in judging the weight they might give to her testimony. And while I did ask you some questions on that subject this afternoon, would you give us your opinion on that?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe, sir, I would refer to-my prior testimony on that.
Mr. JENNER. Nothing has occurred since that you would seek to elaborate upon that?
Mr. OSWALD. Perhaps one thing, sir.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
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Mr. OSWALD. That occurred during the week of December 2, 1963. It came to my attention from my wife, during the latter part of that week, that my mother said on one occasion, when I talked to her over the phone, a phone call that she said had originated from her home in Fort Worth, Texas, while the Secret Service agents were still present with her, as they were in my home in Denton, Texas, that she turned around at the end of the conversation and said that I requested that they leave her home. And this, to my knowledge, was the reason why they left my mother's home prior to the time they ever left my home. And, as a matter of fact, some of the agents that were at my mother's home came out to Denton to stay at my home. And one of them had conveyed to my wife what was said that night.
Mr. JENNER. And that is an additional factor affecting your opinion as to the stability of your mother?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Which leads you to the view that she, since this tragic event, she is not as stable as she was prior thereto?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Now----
Mr. OSWALD. And I might add, sir--I don't believe I stated this. I, of course, did not request that the agents be removed from my mother's residence.
Mr. JENNER. All right, sir.
You have testified to ownership of rifles.
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And do you still own a rifle?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do.
Mr. JENNER. Did you own and possess a rifle-- will withdraw that.
Did you ever take a rifle to the Irving Sports Shop in Irving, Tex.?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. JENNER. Have you ever been in the Irving Sports Shop in Irving, Tex.?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not.
Mr. JENNER. Did anybody ever take any firearm owned by you or possessed by you and take it to the Irving Sports Shop in Irving, Tex.?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; they have not.
Mr. JENNER. May I inquire of you, Mr. McKenzie--have a question here dealing with the nature of Marina's contract--if there is still one between Robert, Marina, and Thorne.
Do we have that contract?
Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, it is in evidence and has been given an exhibit number.
And I might also state that I have just left Mr. Rankin's office where I was contacted by long distance telephone from my office in Dallas, Tex., and has a letter read to me over the telephone that Mr. Thorne has sent to Marina Oswald at the home of Mr. Declan P. Ford, in Dallas, Tex., to the effect that he has had and received a letter from me, but regardless of my letter to him, that she cannot unilaterally cancel his contract, and that his contract is one that is coupled with an interest and that it would be to her best interest to immediately contact him directly in order that certain probate papers may be filed in connection with the death of Lee Harvey Oswald, to establish her community interest under the laws of the State of Texas in the estate of Lee Harvey Oswald; and, further that there was some $7,000 being held for Marina Oswald in Fort Worth, Tex., subject to the payment of $100 by Marina N. Oswald, and that likewise there were other business contracts needed to be affirmed or discussed with Marina Oswald by Mr. Thorne.
I might add in that connection that I have instructed my office to have Marina Oswald bring the letter to my office this afternoon or this evening, have a photostatic copy made of Mr. Thorne's letter, and I further instructed my office to contact Mr. Thorne by mail, certified mail, return receipt requested, and requesting in such letter to have Mr. Thorne contact me directly relative to the representation of Marina Oswald.
And I have directed a copy of that letter to be sent to the Grievance Committee of the Dallas Bar Association.
Mr. JENNER. I take it there at least was, and there is a dispute about it at the moment, as to whether it is still legally effective, an agreement between,
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or a contract between Marina on the one hand and Robert Martin and Thorne on the other.
Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, Mr. Jenner. And all of those agreements are in the record, and have been produced.
And I might also say that Marina Oswald had placed both Messrs. Thorne and Martin on notice that she has discharged them as her attorney and business agent, respectively, and, further, that I have likewise notified them since Mrs. Oswald has turned the matter over to me.
And, further, for the purpose of the record, I will state that Mrs. Oswald has paid me the sum of $25, which is not my usual fee, to represent her as a retainer.
Mr. JENNER. And you do represent her?
Mr. McKENZIE. And I do represent her, and do not desire one dime out of any contributions that she may have received by anyone for the benefit of herself or her children, nor would I accept same.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have a written contract with her?
Mr. McKENZIE. I have no written contract with her.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know whether Marina knows or can use or understand any language other than Russian, and other than English, to the extent that she is able to use and understand it?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not. I do know that she knows a little French.
Mr. JENNER. And that is the extent of your information on the subject?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. How do you know that she knows a little French?
Mr. OSWALD. During her recent stay at my home in Denton, Tex.
Mr. JENNER. How recent was that? Just a few days ago?
Mr. OSWALD. Within the past 10 days to two weeks--I believe this was brought about, to the best of my recollection, due to a television commercial with a little French involved. I gave my total French vocabulary of parlez vouz Francais, or something, and she replied to that. And we asked her did she speak French, and she said four or five other words, and she said that was about all of it.
Mr. JENNER. Did your brother ever speak to you or raise the subject of his jealousy or possible jealousy concerning Marina and any other man or men?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, he did not.
Mr. JENNER. And did any discussion of that subject or possible subject ever take place in your presence by anybody?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it did not.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know any of the following members of the Russian emigre group? I will omit those you have already identified. George Bouhe?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not.
Mr. JENNER. Have you ever heard of that name?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not.
Mr. JENNER. Teofil Meller?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not.
Mr. JENNER. Have you ever heard the name before?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not.
Mr. JENNER. Elena Hall?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I do not.
Mr. JENNER. Have you ever heard the name before?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I have not.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Frank H. Ray?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I have.
Mr. JENNER. Have you heard that name or know of it during the lifetime of your brother Lee?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. JENNER. You became acquainted with that name, with that person, subsequent to his death?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Are you acquainted with her?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I am.
Mr. JENNER. What were the circumstances, and when?
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Mr. OSWALD. On February 19, 1964, I went to Mr. and Mrs. Declan Ford's home from Denton, Tex., on my way to Washington, D.C., to visit with Marina briefly, and on arrival there Mrs. Ray--and I feel like this is the same one--was babysitting with the youngest child of Lee Harvey and Marina N. Oswald. Also, Mr. and Mrs. Declan Ford's child and her own child. And I had a coffee and waited on a taxicab.
Mr. JENNER. That is the extent of your acquaintance with her?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. That is the first time you ever saw or met or heard of her?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. To the best of your information, did Marina ever tease your brother Lee in public?
Mr. OSWALD. Not to my knowledge, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did she, in your presence, or to your knowledge, through other means ever make fun of his ideas? Deprecate his ideas?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; not to my knowledge.
Mr. JENNER. Did she ever, in your presence, ever make any comments with respect to your brother's sexual power?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; she did not.
Mr. JENNER. Was the subject of sex as between your brother and Marina ever discussed?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it was not.
Mr. JENNER. And do you know whether any remarks of that nature were made by anyone, including Marina, to or in the presence of your wife, Vada?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Has anyone or did anyone during the lifetime of your brother ever discuss or raise the subject with you?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, they did not.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever during all the period of your brother's lifetime, ever hear any discussion?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. JENNER. On that subject?
Mr. OSWALD. No sir.
Mr. JENNER. Do you record in your memorandum, diary, all of the course of events of November 22, 1963, in which you took any part? In particular, your visit to the police station on November 22d.
What I am getting at, Mr. Oswald--if what you have written in your memorandum represents your best and sharpest recollection of the course of events recorded there as of the time you wrote that--that may satisfy the gentleman who wished that inquiry to be made.
Mr. OSWALD. Referring to the time I arrived at the Dallas police station?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. OSWALD. On the night of November 22, 1963?
Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir.
Mr. McKENZIE. Is there anything
Mr. JENNER. And any other visits that you made on the 23d or 24th.
Mr. McKENZIE. Other than what is in your diary, is there anything else you could add to it in the way of expanding on what is in your diary?
Mr. Chairman, also in the interests of a chronological and connected record, having in mind the context of the record when it is read, may I suggest that the memorandum diary which we have identified and admitted in evidence, be set forth in full in the transcript?
Mr. DULLES. I think it would be useful to do that.
Mr. JENNER. I think this would be a good point to do that. I will ask Mr. Oswald a few things.
Have you recorded in your notebook how the assassination of the President first came to your attention, where you were, where you proceeded from that point on, and what occurred with respect to the subject matter really from minute to minute or hour to hour throughout the course of the day?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have.
Mr. JENNER. And all of your conversations and your contacts with anyone
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during the course of the day having relation to the subject matter of the assassination of President Kennedy on that day?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I believe I do.
Mr. JENNER. And the subsequent arrest of your brother and your visit to the City Jail?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And is that likewise true that is a detailed recording of the course of events as you participated in them on the 23d and 24th of November?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Now, Mr. McKenzie has kindly asked a question that I would wish also to join in and put to you.
Having glanced through the memorandum again, or read it--is there any-thing you wish to add to any of the recordings that you have made in your notebook?
Mr. OSWALD. Well----
Mr. JENNER. That is that you might have been stimulated during the course of the questioning yesterday and today to recall, that you did not recall at the time you made those entries?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir--not to the entries or material that is already in here. Of course this is not complete to the extent it is my intention to complete at least as fully as I possibly can the entire week out at the Inn of the Six Flags--and possibly other events that has occurred to me since that time that would be more in the nature of a personal nature than anything that perhaps the Commission would be interested in. However, I might say that any time that I do complete this, I would certainly turn it over to the Commission, if they or my attorney deemed it necessary.
Mr. JENNER. If you elaborate further on your memorandum, as I understand, you will supply the Commission with a copy, and with your willingness also to exhibit the original of what you add to it?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir, we shall.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, you have read the memorandum. It does purport to state in some detail and accuracy the course of events of the 22d, 23d, and 24th, and during that week.
Was there anything in the course of your reading that memorandum that might have led you to pose any further questions of the witness?
Mr. DULLES. No, I think not at this time. I would have to go over it again and I will do that. But, at this time it seemed to me, as I read it, to cover the area you have indicated.
I, of course, cannot myself judge the completeness of it. But it seems to cover the points that I would have questioned the witness on if I had not had the diary available.
Mr. JENNER. There is this feature. Mr. Liebeler and I have not examined the memorandum in depth with a view as to whether any thing said in it would stimulate us to ask further questions. I read it last night, but not with a view in mind of asking additional questions.
Mr. DULLES. Well, I read it from the same angle. I read it during these proceedings, and, therefore, I was distracted from time to time. I think it is a very helpful memorandum from the point of view of the Commission. Do you wish to--it has been introduced in evidence.
Mr. JENNER. It is in the record.
Mr. DULLES. But do you wish it put in this record?
Mr. JENNER. Yes, I would like to have it recited in full in the record. And as I recall, you agreed, Mr. Oswald, to dictate to take the memorandum and dictate it aloud on a tape, and Mr. McKenzie will forward the tape to us.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have so agreed.
Mr. DULLES. And when you do forward it, would you kindly advise us at that time if there is anything on a rereading of this memorandum which you would like to supplement or add which you feel will be essential for the Commission to have, or desirable for the Commission to have?
Mr. OSWALD. I will certainly do so, sir.
Mr. McKENZIE. And, further, Mr. Dulles, in the event that any of the attorneys
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representing or working with the Commission see fit to be in Dallas in the course of the investigation of the Commission, with a little notice Mr. Oswald will be glad to appear and talk with them at any time.
Mr. DULLES. Thank you.
And it is, of course, possible that we might wish to recall you. I am not at all sure, and I hope that will not be necessary. But we always have to reserve that for the Commission.
Mr. JENNER. There may be other witnesses who will say things upon which we would like your testimony.
For the period recorded in the memorandum, and the events recorded in the memorandum, the recordings are full and complete, is that correct?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And if you wish, or should determine to add to it, it will be with respect to matters that have occurred subsequently to those events recorded in the memorandum?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct.
Mr. McKENZIE. With one exception, Mr. Jenner. In the event there is some recollection or something that is recalled to his mind, he would likewise add that to the memorandum.
Mr. DULLES. I will direct that a photostat of Commission's Exhibit 323 describing the events of November 22, 1963, and immediately following days insofar as concerns the witness be incorporated in the record at this point.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 323 for identification and received in evidence.)
Mr. JENNER. Have you spoken to any member of the Dutz Murret family in New Orleans since November 22, 1963?
Mr. OSWALD. I have not.
Mr. JENNER. What knowledge do you have as to the cause of the split between your sister-in-law, Marina, and Ruth Paine?
Mr. OSWALD. The cause of that split, sir----
Mr. JENNER. What knowledge do you have of the split, first?
Mr. OSWALD. Full knowledge of the split, sir.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Will you tell us about it? What led to it and----
Mr. OSWALD. Under my advice to Marina Oswald I requested that she sever all connections with Mr. and Mrs. Paine.
Mr. JENNER. When did you give that advice and make that request?
Mr. OSWALD. At the Inn of the Six Flags.
Mr. JENNER. Was this the same occasion about which you have already testified, and which consideration was being given, to whether your sister-in-law Marina would reside with the Martins rather than with the Paines?
Mr. OSWALD. This was the first occasion, sir.
Mr. JENNER. I take it then from your present testimony, just answering my present questions, that the discussion went beyond the question whether Marina would reside with the Paines as distinguished from the Martins, and when I say beyond, it went to the question of whether Marina would have anything to do with the Paines thereafter.
Am I correct?
Mr. OSWALD. Not fully, sir.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Will you please explain?
Mr. OSWALD. To the extent that the question arose whether or not after our first agreement that she would not live with the Paines, that question never has been brought up again. The question has come up from Mrs. Marina Oswald. The time I fix this second query or inquiry from her was approximately December 20 or 21, 1963, at which time we were advised that Mrs. Paine had written her a letter or letters requesting that she contact Mrs. Paine.
Mr. JENNER. What was the date?
Mr. OSWALD. Approximately December 20 or December 21.
Mr. JENNER. Marina advised you that Mrs. Ruth Paine had written her.
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Had written her, Marina?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
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Mr. JENNER. Asking Marina to do what?
Mr. OSWALD. To contact Mrs. Paine; that Mrs. Paine wanted to speak with her. I do not recall any specific reference as to what she had to speak to her about. She just wanted to speak to Marina Oswald. She did not reply to these letters. She asked me would it be all right in my opinion for her to call her on the phone.
I recommended that she did not talk to Mrs. Paine at all nor answer her letters and to my knowledge this request has been done.
Mr. McKENZIE. To the best of your knowledge, is that right?
Mr. OSWALD. To the best of my knowledge she has not contacted Mr. or Mrs. Paine.
Mr. JENNER. She has followed your admonition or advice to have no contact whatever with Mrs. Paine?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Or to permit Mrs. Paine to have any contact with her, Marina?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. MCKENZIE. May I ask a question right there, please?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Oswald, your testimony is from the best of your knowledge, is that correct, insofar as any contact with the Paines or Mrs. Paine is concerned?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. MCKENZIE. And if the Paines have contacted Marina Oswald or if Marina Oswald has contacted the Paines, do you or do you not know of any such contact?
Mr. OSWALD. I am not aware of any such contact.
Mr. McKENZIE. All right, sir. Proceed.
Mr. JENNER. I direct your attention to the month of October, 1962 for a moment. Were you aware that your sister-in-law Marina was living with Elena Hall at that time?
Mr. OSWALD. October, 1962, sir?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. OSWALD. One moment, please.
No, sir. I was not aware of that.
Mr. JENNER. Were you aware of where your brother Lee was living in the month of October, 1962?
Mr. OSWALD. Only to the city in which he was living.
Mr. JENNER. And what city was that?
Mr. OSWALD. Dallas, Tex., sir. If I might ask, sir, can you fix the date in October, 1962 when Marina Oswald was reported living with Mrs. Hall?
Mr. JENNER. No, I can't at the moment. But neither Marina nor your brother was residing in Fort Worth at that time?
Mr. OSWALD. No. sir, they were not.
Mr. JENNER. From your previous testimony I gather that you did not know the whereabouts of your brother Lee other than that it was, you supposed, somewhere in Dallas?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
If I might make one correction, sir.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. OSWALD. Referring to the postcard received from Lee Oswald post dated October 10, 1962 in Dallas, Tex., I recall receiving this two days after he had moved from Fort Worth, Tex., so it would be the first part of October of 1962 they were residing in Fort Worth, Tex.
Mr. JENNER. All right, with the exception of that.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. I take it you are not in the habit of retaining personal correspondence you receive from others?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I am not.
Mr. JENNER. I think you have explained why you retained the particular correspondence that you produced for us, that it was from your brother while he was in Russia.
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And after he returned you received some correspondence and you retained that as well.
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Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did the somewhat abrupt change in the attitude of your brother Lee toward the United States come as a surprise to you?
Mr. OSWALD. You are referring to the period in 1959?
Mr. JENNER. I am.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it did.
Mr. JENNER. That is the letters of May 5 and May 31 and those that followed. But that change, and his desire to return to the United States, did come as a surprise to you, is that correct, sir?
Mr. McKENZIE. Are you asking about his return to the United States or be going to Russia?
Mr. JENNER. No, sir, his return to the United States, his change of attitude.
Mr. OSWALD. It was quite a surprise to me that he wished to return to the United States from Russia.
Mr. JENNER. Was the change in attitude toward the United States as expressed first in the letters of November 8 and November 26, 1959, and then the series of letters that commenced in the spring of 1961 a surprise to you?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it was not a surprise to me.
Mr. JENNER. Would you explain both of your answers.
Mr. OSWALD. There, sir, I felt like in the due course he would certainly change his mind and opinion of the U.S.S.R., and I felt very strongly that after a period of so many months or a year or two that he would change his mind and return to the United States.
Mr. JENNER. Now, prior to your brother's leaving Russia to return to United States, that is actually a day or two before, if not the day before they left Minsk for Moscow, in May of 1962, your brother Lee outlined his projected route by return to the United States. He spoke in that letter of leaving from England and arriving in New Orleans.
Mr. OSWALD. I beg your pardon, sir?
Mr. JENNER. There is a difference in the route actually taken. Did you ever discuss with Lee why that change in route occurred? Are you seeking that May letter?
Mr. JENNER. It is probably the 22d of May and that is Exhibit 318.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have the letter before me. You are referring to the letter of May 22, 1962?
Mr. JENNER. Well, it would appear from the notation handed to me. Is there any discussion in that letter about the route of his return, projected return, to the United States?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; there is.
Mr. JENNER. What does it say, please?
Mr. OSWALD. "Well, we have finally gotten the word from the U.S. Embassy and shall leave for Moscow tomorrow. We will be 10 to 14 days in Moscow and then leave for England where we shall board a ship for America. The transatlantic trip will take another two weeks or so."
Mr. JENNER. Now, the fact is that they did go to Moscow and then to Holland, and boarded a ship at Holland, and as you say touched England and then went directly to the United States.
Did you ever discuss with your brother that change in route?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. And I did fail to read further on down where it does refer to, as he put it, "will actually arrive in America probably in New Orleans."
Mr. JENNER. He actually arrived in New York City.
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. That subject matter was never discussed by you with him?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it Was not.
Mr. JENNER. Or by him in your presence?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it was not.
Mr. JENNER. Or by Marina?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. With you or in your presence?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it was not.
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Mr. JENNER. Have you related, during the course of the day and yesterday, called our attention to all of the correspondence between yourself and your brother from the time of his return to the United Slates in June of 1962 to and through November 22, 1963?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have.
Mr. JENNER. According to our records you and your wife, Vada, or either or both of you, had the following contacts with the FBI during the lifetime of your brother Lee. I direct your attention first, to the possibility of refreshing your recollection, to the date of April 27, 1960.
Were you interviewed by an FBI agent on that day, and would the name Fain serve to refresh your recollection on that score?
Mr. OSWALD. It certainly does, sir. I cannot recall the date of our interview or our conversation.
Mr. JENNER. This would be in the spring, let us say, of 1060. I have given you the date. Does that sound right to you, April 27, 1960.
Mr. OSWALD. It sounds approximately right, sir, because I do recall I just started my employment with the Acme Brick Company in Fort Worth on the 18th of April, 1960.
I do not believe that it was that close to my date of employment with the Acme Brick Company. I feel like it would have been perhaps 20 or 30 days later.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Subject to that, do you recall the interview, is the name familiar to you as being the gentleman who interviewed you?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And what inquiries did Mr. Fain make of you? What subject matter, first.
Mr. OSWALD. He was inquiring as to whether or not I had heard from my brother Lee Harvey Oswald recently, I believe that is the way it was put.
Mr. JENNER. Did he at that time inquire of you on the subject matter of your brother's defection?
Mr. OSWALD. Not to my remembrance, sir.
Mr. DULLES. By subject matter, do you mean reason?
Mr. JENNER. Reason or the fact that he had defected or what he might have known about his defection.
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not believe he did.
Mr. JENNER. He didn't discuss ,that. According to your recollection, there was no discussion of that subject?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Was the subject of the possibility of your being contacted by any Soviet officials discussed?
Mr. OSWALD. It was discussed not in the term of Soviet officials. In case any----
Mr. JENNER. Any representative.
Mr. OSWALD. Any Communist Party member or so forth along that line contacted me, I assured him I would certainly, if necessary, take care of myself or if I had time report it to his attention.
Mr. JENNER. You would report all contacts to the FBI either directly to Mr. Fain or some other FBI agent or office?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And you agreed to do that?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I most certainly did.
Mr. DULLES. Have you had any other calls from the FBI officers since that date?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have.
Mr. JENNER. I think we will get to that.
Mr. DULLES. Are they pertinent?
Mr. JENNER. Yes, they are and I think I have them listed.
Was the subject of the possibility of your receiving any request by any such people for any item of personal identification of your brother discussed with Mr. Fain.
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Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not recall that it was.
Mr. JENNER. You have no present recollection of that?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not.
Mr. JENNER. This is not--trying not to be repetitious but the author of this memorandum is highly desirous of inquiring of you as to whether the subject of personal identification of your brother was raised by Mr. Fain in any connection or in any aspect.
Mr. DULLES. I don't understand that question, what do you mean by personal identification?
Mr. JENNER. Some item of personal identification.
Mr. McKENZIE. Marks identifying.
Mr. DULLES. Wound or anything of that sort?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. DULLES. Physical marks really.
Mr. JENNER. Two classifications, physical marks how he could be identified; secondly any items of identification, such as registration cards, things of that nature. But first personal identification in the sense of physical properties. The person of your brother Lee.
Mr. OSWALD. I believe Mr. Fain did at that time inquire as to any scars that might appear, that I was aware of on Lee's body. The only scar that I was familiar with was the one over one ear, I do not recall which ear it was, where he had a mastoid operation performed at an earlier date.
Mr. JENNER. That is his right ear, was it not?
Mr. OSWALD. I still don't know, sir. I don't recall.
Mr. JENNER. I see.
In that connection, however, did Mr. Fain raise with you the subject that if anyone inquired of you as to any items of scars or other possible identification that you would in turn advise the FBI that such an inquiry had been made of you?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir, and I might say it was my further understanding that I did agree if anybody inquired about Lee in such a nature that other than perhaps newspaper reporters, who were properly identified to me and I did know, I would inform him or his office of this inquiry.
Mr. JENNER. Your present recollection as to aspects of identification was limited, that is the only one you discussed with Mr. Fain was the fact that your brother had a mastoid operation on one of his ears.
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And you knew of no other scar or similar identification on his body?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Now, do you recall being again interviewed by Mr. Fain on September 18, 1961? This would be a couple of months, two or three months after your brother returned--no, he is still in Russia.
Mr. DULLES. He is still in Russia.
Mr. JENNER. Perhaps I may refresh your recollection an interview by Mr. Fain with you respecting your then current knowledge of your brother Lee's activities in Russia.
Mr. OSWALD. May I inquire, sir, was this a telephone conversation?
Mr. JENNER. All that is reported to me in this memorandum is that Mr. Fain again interviewed you on September 18, 1961 with respect to your knowledge of your brother Lee's activities in Russia.
Mr. OSWALD. I do believe that he did, sir, and I believe this was over the telephone.
Mr. JENNER. By way of a telephone call?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. You do not recall as of this time or approximately this time any personal interview that is as distinct from interview by telephone?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall that during the course of that conversation you advised FBI agent Fain that your brother had been critical of the Russians.
Mr. OSWALD. This was in September 1961, sir?
Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir.
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Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I did, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And that you were surprised that the Russians would permit such criticism to be conveyed to you by letter?
Mr. OSWALD. I do not recall that specific statement but I do not deny it.
Mr. JENNER. It is possible that you made that statement?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Now, the next date is May 18, 1962. Was to your knowledge or by report from your wife, was your wife interviewed by the FBI on that date or approximately that date?
Mr. OSWALD. My remembrance on that, sir, is that she was on or around that date, and also by telephone.
Mr. JENNER. Did she report both occasions to you?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, she did.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Would you please recite those, taking them in the order, what she said to you and where and what the circumstances were?
Mr. OSWALD. She was at our residence in Fort Worth, Tex., and she acknowledged that Mr. Fain----
Mr. JENNER. Did she tell you that, sir?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes. I might add very courteously, inquired----
Mr. JENNER. That Mr. Fain was quite courteous in his inquiries of Vada?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes. He inquired over the phone as to whether or not we had recently heard from Lee, and was there any indication about how his efforts to return to the United States were progressing from that end.
Mr. DULLES. How did it happen he called upon your wife, rather than you; were you away at that time, away on business or what?
Mr. OSWALD. I don't believe I was, sir. I do believe Mr. Fain was courteous enough perhaps not to call me at my office, and it was of such a nature that he felt like perhaps my wife could certainly answer whether or not we had heard from him recently.
Mr. DULLES. I see.
Mr. JENNER. Did she report to you as to whether any understanding had been made by her, that she or you, or both of you would advise the FBI as soon as you had information as to when he might return to the United States?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I do not recall that.
Mr. JENNER. You don't recall her reporting that to you?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I do not.
Mr. JENNER. You had already agreed with Mr. Fain back in September, 1961, to keep him advised of the comings and goings of your brother in any event, did you not?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I do not believe it was my intentions, nor do I believe I conveyed it to Mr. Fain at that time, that I would, as soon as I did have notice that when, or approximately when, he was going to arrive, that I would notify them. This was certainly not my intention then. It perhaps didn't even occur to me at that time.
Mr. JENNER. Did you say anything to Mrs. Oswald, Mrs. Vada Oswald, when she stated she had agreed to keep the FBI advised, or to advise the FBI when you and she or either of you was further notified as to the time, if any, of your brother Lee's return to the United States?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, my wife did not advise me that she made any type of statement to Mr. Fain of that effect. So, I certainly did not advise her to what we would do or convey to the FBI when we did have knowledge of it.
Mr. JENNER. To the best of your recollection then there was no discussion on that particular phase of your brother's presence in Russia on the occasion you are now testifying about?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Now, you adverted to two occasions when the FBI interviewed your wife. Was the second one June 26, 1962, or thereabouts? In other words, approximately five weeks later?
Mr. OSWALD. The date was June 26, 1962, sir?
Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir.
Mr. OSWALD. I believe that would be correct, sir, or approximately correct.
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Mr. JENNER. Did you have a conversation with Mrs. Vada Oswald on that subject and did she make a report to you of any kind?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I believe this is the occasion that either Mr. Fain or some other agent called the house in Fort Worth, Tex. and requested my wife to pass on to Lee Harvey Oswald that they would like to see him at their office in Fort Worth, Tex., for an interview. This is the only other time my wife ever conveyed to me that the FBI had called the home and spoke to her, nothing else was said about it.
Mr. DULLES. This was about a month after his return, wasn't it?
Mr. OSWALD. Approximately 2 weeks.
Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion on this particular occasion between you and your wife on the subject of her not advising the FBI of your brother's arrival in the United States?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, there was not.
Mr. JENNER. No discussion on that subject at all?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, not at all.
Mr. JENNER. Did she report to you that she had stated to Mr. Fain that your brother Lee and his wife Marina and their child had come to Fort Worth and were living with you and with her?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; she did not state that to me.
Mr. JENNER. Would you give again the full conversation?
Mr. OSWALD. On that date of June 26, 1962?
Mr. JENNER. Yes, between yourself and your wife Vada.
Mr. McKENZIE. To the best of your recollection.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. OSWALD. To the best of my recollection, the full text of my conversation with my wife was that Mr. Fain or some other member of the FBI Bureau in Fort Worth, Tex., had called and spoke to her and requested that she pass on to Lee Harvey Oswald that they would like to speak to him at their office in Fort Worth, Tex.
I would not say this was part of the conversation, I would assume at that time, as I would assume now, that perhaps he asked her was Lee and his family there.
If you know my wife, she didn't lie to Mr. Fain or any other FBI agent, and she said he was, and perhaps this prompted the request. I might say this, sir. If they did not know that Lee Harvey Oswald had returned in June, until June 26, 1962, somebody was asleep on the job.
Mr. JENNER. I would perhaps be inclined to agree with that, sir. But as far as your conversation with your wife Vada is concerned, she said nothing that she had advised the FBI that--she had discussed with Mr. Fain the fact that she had not advised the FBI of your brother Lee's return.
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Now, do you recall an interview with the FBI, or they with you, on August 14, 1962 or thereabouts in Fort Worth?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, and I recall that this was by telephone at the general office of the Acme Brick Company and outside of my office as I was leaving the office to go to lunch that day.
The telephone call came through and I took it in another office and spoke to Mr. Fain briefly. He inquired----
Mr. JENNER. He identified himself as Mr. Fain?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Had you become acquainted with his telephone voice at least by that time?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, I had.
Mr. JENNER. And that voice was the voice that you identified at that time as that of Mr. Fain?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
What did he say and what did you say?
Mr. OSWALD. He inquired as to where Lee was living at at that time and to the best of my recollection my reply to him was that I did not know the house number. I knew the street not by name but by locale and I gave him this location.
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Mr. JENNER. Would. you please tell me what you said to him?
Mr. OSWALD. That to the best of my recollection, that this duplex was located across the street from the side of Montgomery Ward located on West 7th Street in Fort Worth, Tex., approximately three or four blocks from West 7th Street.
Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Chairman, you have greatly inconvenienced yourself this evening and accommodated both myself and Mr. Oswald for which we thank you.
However, it is now 16 or 17 minutes of 8 o'clock in the evening, and Mr. Oswald has been testifying here for, to the best way I can----
Mr. DULLES. It will be 12 hours pretty soon, 11 hours.
Mr. McKENZIE. Approximately 11 hours and by the same token Mr. Jenner has been questioning him for a like period of time, with the exception of the few questions you have asked and the few questions I have asked, and I submit maybe we should start again in the morning.
And I likewise say that he is perfectly willing to go forward but I do know that you have plans and if we can meet----
Mr. DULLES. We will have to do it tomorrow.
Mr. McKENZIE. We can be here at 8:30, if it will suit the Commission's----
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. DULLES. 9:30 tomorrow morning.
And we will adjourn at 11 o'clock, come hell or high water. (Whereupon, at 7:45 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)
Saturday, February 22, 1964
TESTIMONY OF ROBERT EDWARD LEE OSWALD RESUMED
The President's Commission met at 10 a.m. on February 22, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C.
Present was Allen W. Dulles, member.
Also present were Albert Jenner, assistant counsel; and William McKenzie, attorney for Robert Edward Lee Oswald.
Mr. DULLES. The Commission will come to order. We will continue the hearing of Mr. Robert Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. Thank you, sir.
Have you now recited for us all of the occasions on which any agent of the FBI called or visited with you prior to November 22, 1963?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have.
Mr. DULLES. And your answer would include any other Government investigatory bodies, would it? I mean you didn't have the Secret Service at this time?
Mr. McKENZIE. In answer to your question, Mr. Jenner, and to Mr. Dulles' further question, Robert has told me there was one other agency that he does recall at this time.
Mr. JENNER. Why don't we have him recite it, and then see if it is pertinent.
Or, may I suggest, Mr. Chairman, we might go off the record and see what it was.
Mr. McKENZIE. It was Immigration and Naturalization.
Mr. JENNER. Fix the date, please. Excuse me.
There was one other Government agency that interviewed you?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Would you give the time, please?
Mr. OSWALD. To the best of my recollection, this was approximately January or February of 1962, at my residence in Fort Worth, Tex., approximately 7 o'clock or 7:30 p.m. The gentleman had called my home from Dallas, Tex.
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Mr. JENNER. Had he called you?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he had called my home, and my wife had talked to him, and he asked if it was satisfactory if he came over to ask us some questions and some background information in regard to Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. Was this a week day or a Sunday?
Mr. OSWALD. This was a week day, sir.
My wife----
Mr. JENNER. How did you become informed of this?
Mr. OSWALD. My wife called me at my office, sir. And she advised the gentleman on the phone unless I said to the contrary it was certainly satisfactory for him to come that night, which he did, at approximately 7 or 7:30 p.m.
Mr. JENNER. And you were there?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I was there, and my wife was present.
Mr. JENNER. Did he give you his name, and do you recall what the name was?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I am sure he did give his name, but I do not recall what his name was.
It was a rather brief meeting and conversation that we had, and it was regards to the possibility or inquiry into the possibility of having Lee's wife, Mrs. Marina N. Oswald, brought to this country, with Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. As best as you can, would you reconstruct the conversation?
Mr. OSWALD. This gentleman did take notes or perhaps he did have a form outlining various questions that he needed answers to. I do not recall any specific questions. However, I did state to him, after three or four questions in regards to Lee Harvey Oswald being in the Soviet Union, and quite surprised I do recall, myself that he was not aware of the reasons why--or the reported reasons why Lee had gone to the Soviet Union.
And I suggested to the gentleman at that time that he perhaps contact the FBI and I specifically mentioned Mr. Fain by name--he said he was acquainted with Mr. Fain of the FBI Bureau, and that he would get the background information from Mr. Fain in regards to Lee Harvey Oswald.
I believe, sir, to the best of my remembrance that he stated at that time he was not aware of the situation, and he thought this was just an "ordinary" case of bringing an immigrant in from the Soviet Union to the United States.
Mr. JENNER. And when he said that, what person did you have in mind?
Mr. OSWALD. Marina N. Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. That is the person to whom you thought he was referring, was Marina?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. DULLES. And this was after, as I recall, your correspondence showed that they were planning to come back, was it not?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Could you give us a little more of your recollection as to the thrust of his inquiries, the subject matter of his inquiries?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe, sir, the best of my recollection on that would be directed to us at that time about Marina N. Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. Of what nature her age?
Mr. OSWALD. I do not recall any specific questions, sir.
Mr. DULLES. Did they inquire about the marriage? That would be one of the things they would inquire about. Because it would be the marriage to an American that would give her the preference. I was wondering if that might have been the subject of the inquiry--whether you had evidence that she was married to your brother.
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not recall that specific question, but perhaps this ground was covered. It was just a general background on Marina N. Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. But it did relate to Marina N. Oswald? You recall that much?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it did.
Mr. JENNER. And the questions were directed toward her and about her specifically?
Mr. OSWALD. More so than Lee Harvey Oswald. Some questions were addressed to me by the gentleman in relation to my brother, Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. And the inquiries of the agent--he inquired of you as to whether you were the brother of Lee Harvey Oswald, did he?
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Mr. OSWALD. I am sure he did, sir.
Mr. JENNER. I am just trying to reconstruct the scene for you.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And whether your brother Lee Harvey Oswald was then in Russia, and had been in Russia?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Whether he was married, and married to Marina?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And was he familiar with Marina's name?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; he was.
I might further add, sir, if I may, that the gentleman advised me he assumed that Lee was employed by the Government in some capacity in Russia, and not having any background or apparent background of Lee's reported reasons for going to Russia.
Mr. JENNER. And did you make any response to that, when his conversation was such as to indicate that he was not fully advised of the circumstances under which your brother had entered and remained in Russia?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did--to the extent as I have already testified.
I believe perhaps at this point, if not this exact point, I referred him to the FBI Bureau and Mr. Fain.
Mr. JENNER. Did he ask you--did he inquire whether you had received correspondence from your brother, or the extent to which you had been in touch with each other?
Mr. OSWALD. Not that I recall, sir.
Mr. JENNER. These are horribly leading questions--but I take it then his inquiries were largely directed toward, as a representative of the Immigration and Naturalization Service, obtaining information as to Marina, whom he understood to be the wife of your brother, who, in turn, was about to return to the United States with Marina, then a citizen of Russia?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. How long did this interview last?
Mr. OSWALD. Approximately 30 minutes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And your mind's eye is that he had a form, or he had some set questions which he was asking from a sheet of paper?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do.
Mr. JENNER. Rather than the typical FBI or Secret Service inquiry, in which the questions range, as mine have, for example, largely dependent upon what your answers to the previous questions were?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
I believe the gentleman did have some type of set form as to questions he was referring to when he spoke to me.
Mr. JENNER. Did he go into your family background, your own age, your occupation, and that sort of thing?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe, sir; he just went into my background, as to the extent of my relation to Lee Harvey and Marina N. Oswald at that particular time.
Mr. JENNER. Would you describe this gentleman, please--his physical appearance?
Mr. McKENZIE. If you recall.
Mr. JENNER. Yes, of course.
Mr. OSWALD. To the best of my remembrance, I would describe this man to be average build, rather short, approximately 5-foot 9 or 5-foot 10, perhaps in his middle forties or early fifties. I do recall, sir; if I might further add, as the gentleman was leaving the house that night, I requested of him if it was. possible for him to notify me when and if Marina's visa would be accepted or not, and he replied to me at that time that he could not do that. And I replied back to him that I guess I would know about it from the extent that if she arrived over here, it was approved.
Mr. JENNER. Have you now exhausted your recollection of this particular incident?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have.
Mr. DULLES. Could I ask a question there?
Do you recall that at any time the State Department was in touch with you
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over this general period--that is, the period of your brother's stay in the Soviet Union, or his prospective return here?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; at no time was I aware of any member of the State Department being in contact with me.
And I might further add that at this particular time, after the Immigration and Naturalization agent was there, including my prior testimony as to the contacts with the FBI Bureau, these were the only times prior to his arrival I was in contact with any Government agency.
Mr. JENNER. Any agency of the Government of the United States?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Now, were you consciously in contact during any of that period up to November 22, 1963, with any agent or agency of any other government?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I was not. And I might further add that no one else other than perhaps my close friends inquired as to my contact with Lee Harvey Oswald during that period.
Mr. JENNER. All right. You have related to us an incident of your brother being interviewed by the FBI, and he reporting back to you either that evening or that same day of that interview. That is the one in which your brother reported to you that inquiry had been made of him as to whether he was an agent of any agency of the United States, and you responded--I have forgotten now just how You phrased it.
Mr. OSWALD. "Well, don't you know, sir?"
Mr. JENNER. Now, in addition to that particular occasion, were there any instances in which you were directly advised or advised by your brother or by Mrs. Vada Oswald of any other interviews by any agent of the United States Government with your brother, after his return from Russia?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe, sir, to the best of my remembrance on that question; that I was advised by Lee Harvey Oswald, after he and his wife took up residence on Mercedes Street in Fort Worth, that the FBI had contacted him and held an interview with Lee Harvey Oswald in their car in front of their apartment on Mercedes Street.
Mr. JENNER. When you say in their car, you mean the automobile of the agents?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And was that approximately the middle of October--I mean the middle of August?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it would have been approximately the middle of August 1962.
Mr. JENNER. Your brother reported that to you, did he?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; he did.
Mr. JENNER. Is that the first information you had about it--that is, did it come through your brother initially to you?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I had indication from Mr. Fain, when he called me at my office, inquiring as to where Lee was residing at that time, that they did want to speak to him.
Mr. JENNER. I See.
And I take it, then, that Mr. Fain had called you at your office, as you testified yesterday, shortly before this interview took place with your brother.
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Did you inquire of your brother about it, or did he volunteer it?
Mr. OSWALD. He volunteered the information, sir.
Mr. JENNER. I have forgotten now.
Have I had you recite what your brother said to you about it?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir: you have not.
Mr. JENNER. Would you please state that--and who was present when your brother related this to you?
Mr. OSWALD. To the best of my remembrance of that occasion, sir, it was in the presence of my brother, myself, and his wife, Marina N. Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. In their home, or your home?
Mr. OSWALD. In their home, on Mercedes Street either the afternoon or the following day of the interview. And he just simply stated to me, sir, that
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the FBI had been by and had held an interview with him in their car in the front of their residence on Mercedes Street.
Mr. JENNER. Did he tell you anything about the thrust of the interview, anything that had been said, what the inquiries were of him?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not recall any.
Mr. JENNER. Your recollection now serves you only to say that he did report to you that FBI agents had interviewed him in their automobile, in front of or near their apartment on Mercedes Street--2703 Mercedes Street--is that correct?
Mr. OSWALD. I do not recall the number of the house, sir. I do recall it was at the Mercedes Street address, and I have exhausted my recollection of that particular occasion.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall what you said or what others said--that is, others in addition to your brother--on that particular occasion, when he recited the event?
Mr. OSWALD. No, Sir; I do not recall any further comment about that particular event at that time.
Mr. DULLES. There is one question I would like to ask at this point. This is slightly on a different subject.
Mrs. Marina Oswald, as I recall--and I don't know whether you were present, Mr. Jenner, when she gave this testimony or not.
Mr. JENNER. I think not.
Mr. DULLES. She stated that in the later period she had the impression that your brother was trying to break off a little with, I might call it, the Russian group in Fort Worth that he had had a good many contacts with. That is when they called, he did not seem to welcome their coming, and they slowly stopped coming. I think this was to the house on Mercedes Street.
Do you have any recollection of that? Did you know about that? Did Marina speak to you about that? Or did your brother speak to you about that?
Mr. JENNER. Or did you have any impressions about it?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do have impressions about that--at that particular time when they were residing in Fort Worth.
If I may, sir----
Mr. DULLES. It was Fort Worth when this took place?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. DULLES. Mercedes Street is in Fort Worth?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Would you sort of start at the beginning, and give us what impressions you had, as to how this impressed you, as an incident?
Mr. OSWALD. All right, sir.
During the period that they resided at the Mercedes Street address, I was of the opinion--and I was present on one occasion at the Mercedes Street address----
Mr. JENNER. Could you fix the time?
Mr. OSWALD. This would be approximately the latter part of August 1962, sir.
Mr. JENNER. It would be subsequent to this interview by the FBI agents with your brother in the automobile near their home?
Mr. OSWALD. To the best of my recollection, I would say that would be so, sir.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. OSWALD. That Mr. Paul Gregory had retained Marina in the capacity of teaching him the Russian language, and he in return was paying her a certain amount per hour for this instruction.
Mr. JENNER. And how did you come by that information?
Mr. OSWALD. On the night that I was present at the home or apartment on Mercedes Street, I was informed---
Mr. JENNER. By whom?
Mr. OSWALD. By Lee Harvey Oswald--that Mr. Paul Gregory was due to arrive at any moment, to take him and Marina driving around Fort Worth, Tex. During this period Marina and Mr. Paul Gregory would converse in the Russian language, and that she would be paid by the hour for her time, and for the instruction.
Mr. JENNER. Who was present on this occasion when your brother told you that, in addition to yourself and your brother?
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Mr. OSWALD. Marina N. Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. And your brother spoke in English, did he?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. To the best of your knowledge and present recollection, did Marina understand what he was relating to you? Did he make it apparent to her?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe, sir, to the best of my recollection that generally she was apparent to what he was saying to me. I do feel like she certainly recognized the name of Mr. Paul Gregory and was able more or less to fill in the conversation to the extent that she understood that Mr. Gregory was due to arrive, and that they were to converse in the Russian language for his benefit.
And it was my understanding at this time, either implied or stated to me, by Lee Harvey Oswald, that this was not the first occasion that this had occurred.
Mr. JENNER. I see.
Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Dulles, if I may interrupt at this time--you have brought here with you this morning a copy of the New York Times which you have very kindly allowed me to look at and read.
On page 22 of the New York Times, Saturday edition, February 22, 1964, is an article there----
Mr. DULLES. I may add I have not read the paper yet.
Mr. McKENZIE. There is an article here by Mr. Anthony Lewis, correspondent for the New York Times, dateline Washington, February 21, which I would like to put into the record.
Now, the reason I would like to put it into the record----
Mr. JENNER. Mr. McKenzie, would it suit your convenience if we finished this incident, and then you put this matter into the record, or is it pertinent to this particular point?
Mr. McKENZIE. It is not pertinent to this line of inquiry, Mr. Jenner. But with the Chairman's permission, I would like to insert it into the record, or make a statement into the record at this time.
Mr. DULLES. It is all right--go ahead.
Mr. McKENZIE. It is apparent to me, from a reading of this article, that someone other than Robert Oswald or myself has made a statement to the press. We have consistently stated to the press that Mr. Oswald was under oath before this Commission, and that being under oath before this Commission he was in no position, or that it would not be an appropriate time for any statement to be given to the press.
And yet in this article, Mr. Lewis has given some direct quotes, or what appear to be direct quotes, of Mr. Oswald's testimony before this Commission.
Mr. DULLES. I wonder if it would be agreeable to you, if we go off the record at this point.
Mr. McKENZIE. If I may still be on the record for one more second, please, sir--I would like to further and say that some of the text of this article gives testimony in the same light, and nearly in the same manner in which Robert Oswald has testified.
Now, if there is a leak to the press, or if anyone on the Commission or its staff are giving articles to the press, then I want to know as soon as possible, because if that is so we will go down and have a press interview, and I just don't think it is fair to the witness, nor do I think it is fair to the Commission.
And if you feel that I am right in my statement here, then I would like to have this article inserted in the record.
Now, if you would like to go off the record, that is fine with me, sir.
Mr. DULLES. Just for a moment.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. DULLES. Back on the record.
Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Dulles, off the record we have discussed the New York Times article, and I have stated to you--the New York Times article referred to as the one by Anthony Lewis, of February 22, 1964.
Mr. DULLES. I think it is of February 21, but reported in the Times on February 22.
Mr. McKENZIE. That is correct.
I have stated to you that at no time to my knowledge has Robert Oswald
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given any statements to the press as set forth in this article, particularly his testimony to the Commission.
And, further, that both Robert Oswald and his counsel have stated to the press that while Mr. Oswald was under oath to the Commission, and subject to recall by the Commission, that he would not issue any press statements, because I have likened it to a grand jury investigation, and I have stated this to the press.
And I did not deem it appropriate at any time for him to make any statements to the press of his testimony before this Commission.
And yet there are--I find in this article by Mr. Lewis, dateline February 21, certain excerpts from his testimony before the Commission--and it can come from only one place, and that is from someone on the Commission's staff.
Mr. DULLES. Well, I may wish to make an exception to that--having been in Washington a long time, and knowing that things have a way of leaking, and many ways of leaking.
Mr. McKENZIE. Well, sir, I will state to you--maybe my statement is too strong.
But I will state to you, sir, that at no time has Mr. Oswald or myself made any statements giving testimony to the press which has previously been given to the Commission.
Mr. DULLES. I am very glad to hear that statement.
Mr. McKENZIE. And, further----
Mr. JENNER. I have every confidence in that. As a matter of fact, I have been with both of you most of the time.
Mr. McKENZIE. And, further, if it has been given to the press by someone other than the people in this room, and I feel confident it was not given to the press by anyone because I have either been with you, Mr. Dulles, or Mr. Jenner. But I feel that the Commission should investigate this to see if there is a leak, and, if so, I feel that it is reprehensible.
Mr. DULLES. I will present your statement to the Chief Justice. Do you wish to identify the statements to which you take exception?
Mr. McKENZIE. I will identify it this way.
Let me just identify it this way: "His brother told the Commission that Lee seemed changed when he returned to the United States. He had lost a lot of hair, which Robert said was unusual for their family, and he appeared to be under a strain."
"Robert testified that the last time he saw Lee before the assassination was at Thanksgiving in 1962."
Now, I offer that, sir, for the record from the standpoint that that is testimony given to the Commission and quoted in this article.
There are other items or matters in the article which Mr. Lewis could have received from public records, or from newspaper morgues, or newspaper records. However, the two quotes that I have given from this article are direct testimony from the Commission, from the Commission's records.
Mr. JENNER. I think in fairness, Mr. McKenzie, they are with respect to subject matter. I don't think they are direct quotes of the witness' testimony.
Mr. McKENZIE. But you will agree with me, won't you, Mr. Jenner, that they are in respect to subject matter, matters testified to before the Commission by Robert Oswald?
Mr. JENNER. The subject matter of the hair, yes. I recall specifically asking Mr. Oswald about that yesterday. We had not inquired of the witness about that prior to that time.
Mr. McKENZIE. I might further add, sir, that I am familiar with the statements made to the press by you, Mr. Dulles.
Mr. DULLES. I think you heard both of them that I made yesterday before the morning, afternoon and evening sessions.
Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir; I did. And I would be remiss if I did not add that I know that you--when you have made statements to the press, you have been most fair, both to the press, to the Commission, and also the witness.
And I am in full accord with the statements that have been made to the press by yourself, by Mr. Rankin, and by the Chief Justice.
I might also add, Mr. Dulles, if I may, sir, that the only reason I bring this
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up is that I do feel that Mr. Robert Oswald is under strict--the strictest of oaths to give his testimony only to the Commission, in the interests of finding out the truth, and that he has not given any statements to the press nor have I.
Mr. DULLES. On that latter point, I would say that I appreciate and respect the position that you have taken in this respect, that in the case of previous witnesses, the Commission itself has no authority to, as I understand it, has not attempted to "muzzle" witnesses that have appeared before it as to what they themselves may say after the hearings.
The Chief Justice has enjoined them during the hearings not to discuss the proceedings.
Am I correct, Mr. Jenner?
Mr. JENNER. That is my understanding.
Mr. McKENZIE. And that is exactly the position we are taking, sir. And that is exactly the position that we have taken, and will continue to take at all times while he is under oath to the Commission, and until such time as he is released from that oath.
Mr. DULLES. Well, I will see that your statement is brought specifically to the attention of the Chief Justice and Mr. Rankin.
Mr. McKENZIE. Thank you, sir.
Mr. DULLES. Shall we proceed, Mr. Jenner?
Mr. JENNER. Yes, thank you, sir.
When the discussion of the Times article arose, you were in the process, Mr. Oswald, of relating to us an incident of one evening in the home of your brother, in which--with respect to which Paul Gregory, the son of Peter Gregory expected to arrive at your brother's home and then to drive about the City of Fort Worth with Marina, she talking to him in Russian and he likewise in Russian, as part of a course of instruction in conversational Russian between Marina and Paul Gregory, who was seeking to improve his command of the Russian language. And you had reached the point at which you related a conversation with you in the presence of Marina, which you thought she understood and she took sufficient part in to lead you to believe she did understand it.
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Does that refresh your recollection as to where we were?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it does.
Mr. DULLES. And I would like to add, as I understand it, it was indicated to you by your brother that this was to be on a financial basis--that is, she was in effect giving Russian lessons to Paul Gregory, and would be paid for it.
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Was any amount of money mentioned? It was by the hour, I think you said.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; a figure was mentioned. However, I do not recall the exact figure. I could perhaps to the best of my ability and remembrance of the occasion place the figure at over $3 an hour.
I do not recall any further conversation that I had with Marina and Lee Oswald on that occasion.
I did leave their residence before the reported time that Mr. Gregory was due to arrive.
Mr. JENNER. Did anything occur that evening, in the course of that interchange and conversation, that had a bearing upon, or led you to believe or have the impression, that your brother Lee was seeking to break off or lessen relations on his part and Marina's part with their Russian friends?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; there was not.
Mr. JENNER. All right, proceed.
Mr. DULLES. Could I ask one question there?
Did your brother indicate whether these lessons were being given in his and Marina's home, or whether they were to be given at the Gregory home?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. It was implied if not stated to me at that time that the lesson was to be given going around Fort Worth, Tex.
Mr. JENNER. This particular occasion?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did you get any impression, Mr. Oswald, as to the course of procedure in that respect for any future occasions, or those that had occurred in
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the past, because I believe you indicated that your impression was that this was not arising for the first time that evening.
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not recall anything being stated at that time or any other time where these lessons were to be given other than my impression of that one night that it was to be given as they drove around Fort Worth, Tex.
Mr. JENNER. Am I correct in my impression of your testimony that your impression in turn was that this relationship had existed at least somewhat before this occasion?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Then would you proceed to the next circumstance or event which led you eventually to the conclusion or impression that your brother was seeking to lessen the relations between themselves, he and Marina, and their Russian friends?
Mr. OSWALD. To the contrary, sir, that Was the Only time that I recall that any people of Russian descent or interested in the Russian language was mentioned in my presence, and I base my opinion on that particular incident that they were not at the time seeking to lessen their relationship within this group of people when they did reside at the Mercedes Street address in Fort Worth, Tex.
Mr. JENNER. I see.
I had been under the impression, Mr. Oswald, from your first immediate response to Mr. Dulles' question on this subject, that you had stated or at least indicated--I had that impression--that you had noted somewhere along a point of time while they were on Mercedes Street, some effort on the part of your brother to lessen the intensity at least of the degree of intercourse between themselves, that is he and Marina, and their friends of Russian derivation. Am I correct in that?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe you are incorrect in that, sir. I believe I stated to Mr. Dulles that to the contrary at that particular time they were not attempting to lessen their relations with this group of persons. And I cited the incident of that night as they awaited on the arrival of Mr. Paul Gregory as an example that they were still in contact at least with that member of Mr. Gregory's family, if not Mr. Gregory.
Mr. JENNER. I see.
Mr. DULLES. It may well have been that the testimony that we previously had related to a subsequent period.
Mr. JENNER. That may well be.
I was not here When Marina testified.
It does lead me, Mr. Chairman, however, to make some further inquiries on this subject.
Mr. DULLES. All right.
Mr. JENNER. How old, in your judgment, if you have an impression, was Mr. Paul Gregory?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. I would place his age at that time approximately 20 or 21 years of age.
Mr. JENNER. And I believe you testified last evening that you had met Paul Gregory.
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Did you gain any impression that evening that prior contacts between Paul Gregory and your brother and sister-in-law in this area had embraced other occasions when they, meaning Marina and Paul Gregory, had driven about the city of Fort Worth?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I was of that opinion--whether it was stated or implied, at that time.
Mr. JENNER. Could you state for us a little more in detail any remark that led to that conclusion?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not recall any specific remark that was made at that time. But I was, as I am now, of the opinion that there were or had been prior interviews or lessons between Marina Oswald and Lee Harvey Oswald and Mr. Paul Gregory.
Mr. JENNER. That is prior occasions when this method of conducting a lesson had been pursued--that is, just driving about the city of Fort Worth?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
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Mr. JENNER. Now, did there occur subsequently any further occasions in which the conducting of lessons by Marina with or for Paul Gregory arose?
Mr. OSWALD. Not to my knowledge, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Up to the time that they had left Fort Worth, which, as I recall was the day after Thanksgiving, 1962, did there come to your attention, either through your brother or Marina or some other source, the undertaking by Marina to give or participate in lessons to persons other than Paul Gregory, the teaching or increasing the facility of use of the Russian language on the part of someone else?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. And if I may, sir, to understand the question fully--you referred to the day after Thanksgiving, 1962, as the day that they had left Fort Worth, Tex. They had given up their residence on Mercedes Street in the early part of October 1962, and moved to Dallas, Tex., address unknown to me. On the occasion referred to on Thanksgiving 1962, it was my understanding that they returned to Dallas when they departed from my home in Fort Worth, Tex.
Mr. JENNER. You are absolutely correct.
I did misstate your testimony. But up until the time they did leave, were there any further occasions on which you received the impression, at least, that Marina had been engaged, either for compensation or voluntarily in teaching conversational Russian or increasing the facility or use of the Russian language by someone else?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I am not acquainted with any other persons that perhaps she had pursued this line of employment with, or volunteered to instruct anybody else in the use of the Russian language.
Mr. JENNER. Does that exhaust this subject, Mr. Chairman?
Mr. DULLES. Yes. You may proceed.
Mr. JENNER. At any time before Marina and Lee left Fort Worth to go to Dallas, did you become aware of her, at least from time to time, living with others in the city of Fort Worth--that is, not living with your brother in their home?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I was not aware of that.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Oswald; I anticipate that a series of names which I am about to put to you would in large part be strange to you, but one of the other divisions of the investigation staff desires me to inquire whether any of these names are familiar to you.
Prior to November 22, 1963, did you or your brother, Lee, or any member. of the Oswald family--that would include your brother John and your mother--as far as you know hear of any of the following persons:
Mr. Chairman, may I withdraw that question and put it to the witness first.
Did you, at any time prior to November 22, 1963, know of or hear of any of the following persons:
One, George Senator?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not.
Mr. JENNER. And that name is unfamiliar to you?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Ralph Paul?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. DULLES. We will assume that each of those questions the name is also unfamiliar to you.
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
If you would like, may 1 suggest that you read the entire list and if any of them are familiar to me I would stop you on that occasion.
Mr. JENNER. Thank you.
Andrew Armstrong; Karen Bennett, also sometimes known as Carlin; Bruce Carlin; Roy William Pike, alias Mickey Ryan; Robert Kermit Patterson, alias Bobby Patterson; Donald C. Stuart; Charles Arndt; Stanley or Katch Skotnicki; Larry Crafard; Eva Grant; Joe Bonds; Joyce Lee McDonald, also known Joy Dale.
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not heard of any of those people mentioned by name, nor am I familiar with any of their names.
Mr. JENNER. And as far as you know, none of the members of your family,
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including your brother Lee, and Marina, knew of, or were acquainted with any of these people?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And this likewise would include your wife Vada and your mother and your brother John?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know whether or not your brother Lee ever visited any of the following night clubs, bars, or taverns or restaurants in the Dallas-Fort Worth area:
The Bullpen Drive-In; the Carousel Club.
Mr. OSWALD. Pardon me, Mr. Jenner. This is prior to November 23, 1963--is that correct?
Mr. JENNER. It is, sir.
Mr. OSWALD. Thank you.
Mr. JENNER. I will repeat the list.
The Bullpen Drive-In; the Carousel Club; the Vegas Club; the Sovereign Club.
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I am not aware at any time that he did enter these establishments.
Mr. JENNER. Have you been. in any of these establishments?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not.
Mr. JENNER. This leads me to ask you about your brother's drinking habits, if any. Did he take an occasional drink--I mean of intoxicating liquor?
Mr. OSWALD. To the best of my remembrance, sir, on that particular point, I have never known him to take a drink of an alcoholic beverage.
Mr. JENNER. And have you been with him on occasion when you have had alcoholic beverage, whereas at the same time he declined to have any, or did not have any?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not recall any occasion such as that.
Mr. JENNER. Were there occasions on which you would have drawn to your attention the fact that your brother was not a drinking man. even a social drinker?
That is, were you present when others might have been having a social drink at which your brother either declined or just didn't have one?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not recall any such incident.
Mr. JENNER. But you do have a firm recollection or opinion, in any event, that your brother was not a drinking man, even a social drinker?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And am I correct that you did testify a moment ago that there was never an occasion when you saw your brother imbibe an intoxicating liquor?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. What about Marina in that respect?
Mr. OSWALD. There, again, sir, we are referring to the time prior to November 23, 1963, is that correct?
Mr. JENNER. Well, let's take that first.
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not.
Nor was I present on any occasion that she did take a drink of any type of alcoholic beverage.
Mr. JENNER. Now, I will take the period from the 22d of November to the present time.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I have been in her presence on a number of occasions where she has taken a drink of an alcoholic beverage.
Mr. JENNER. And, has it been just an occasional drink, purely social drinking?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And----
Mr. OSWALD. If I may qualify one point of that statement, as to being a social drink--during the period that we was at the Inn of the Six Flags in Arlington, Tex., the baby, Rachel Oswald, being breast fed, and due to the nature that she was quite upset at that particular time, that she was not eating proper, and that they were having some difficulty--she was having difficulty maintaining the natural milk supply in her own body for the baby, that one
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six-pack of beer was brought in, and at no time did I see her drink other than one beer at a time or one beer per day to help fortify herself in this production of milk.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever hear any conversation in which your brother participated or Marina participated, with you or in your presence respecting the subject of his or her or their attendance at any night club, bar, tavern, or restaurant in the Dallas-Fort Worth area, and when I use the word restaurant, I am thinking of a restaurant in which intoxicating liquors or entertainment might be employed.
Mr. OSWALD. I am sorry I keep referring to this point again, sir, but this was prior to November 23, 1963?
Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir.
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I was not aware of that.
Mr. JENNER. All right. That is, your brother and Marina were not in the habit of--you know of no occasion on which they attended bars or restaurants with entertainment which might be described as night clubs and that sort of thing?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And I take it that is not your habit, either?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. DULLES. To your knowledge, did he have any friends in this circle, the nightclub circle?
Mr. OSWALD. Not that I was aware of, sir, prior to November 23, 1963.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know of any friends or classmates or associates, either of yourself or your brother Lee, who have become nightclub entertainer? And may I say that includes so-called stripteasers or musicians or singers, or masters of ceremony.
Mr. OSWALD. If I may refresh my memory to the question, sir, you did include myself in that statement, did you not?
Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir.
Mr. OSWALD. The only gentleman that I was ever in a remote way acquainted With Who has become perhaps what might be determined an entertainer as-you have outlined was a boy that attended high school with me in Fort Worth, Tex., and he is now known as, as then--I believe his correct name is Mr. Van Williams. If I might pinpoint the series of programs on television that he appeared in was Surfside Six, and other western and detective type series programs on television.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know whether your brother was acquainted with him?
Mr. OSWALD. I would be of the opinion, sir, that he was not acquainted with Mr. Williams.
Mr. JENNER. Now, do you know of any friends, classmates or associates of either yourself or your brother Lee who have become waitresses, bartenders, or, to use the vernacular, bouncers? You know what a bouncer is?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
To answer your question, sir, I do not know of any that are personally acquainted to myself or that I would be of the opinion that were acquainted with Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. And the same question as to members or employees of any gun clubs or shooting ranges, rifle ranges.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes; 1 am acquainted with at least two people who have joined. or belonged to a gun club or something of that nature.
Mr. JENNER. Would you please identify them, and also state whether or not your brother Lee was acquainted with these people.
Mr. OSWALD. Mr. Bill Harlan, formerly of the Acme Brick Go. in Fort Worth, Tex., and Mr.--I am quite sure that Mr. Harlan is not acquainted with :my brother, Lee Harvey Oswald. The other gentleman is Mr. Jewel Godi, of the Acme Brick Co., in Denton, Tex., who is not acquainted with my brother Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. I take it these two gentlemen you have identified are fellow employees of Acme Brick Co.?
Mr. OSWALD. Or ex-employees that have become my personal friends, sir.
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Mr. JENNER. As far as you know--I will withdraw that, because it would be repetitious.
What kind of gun clubs--hunting clubs, or gun practice clubs?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. Harlan belonged to an archery club in Fort Worth, Tex., that I believe was also part of a gun club.
And Mr. Godi belongs to a Denton gun club of the nature of a practice range.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know of any possible homosexual tendency or activity of your brother, Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have any information as to whether he at any time met with suspected homosexuals or whether he went to the places reputedly frequented by homosexuals?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not.
Mr. JENNER. What was your brother's attitude toward sex in general?
Mr. OSWALD. I do not have an opinion on that, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have any opinion whether it was a normal, healthy attitude.
Mr. OSWALD. I would say it would be a normal, healthy attitude, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have any--do you know what his attitude was, if he had one and you are acquainted with, toward homosexuality and homosexuals?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I am not of any opinion on that particular question.
Mr. JENNER. And this series of questions which I have been asked to put to you, I intended to include his entire lifetime. And were you answering the questions with that in mind?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. I would not change my own answers on that basis.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know whether or not any of the persons whose names I read to you, that series of names, beginning with George Senator, and con-eluding with Joyce Lee McDonald, contacted any member of your family or friends subsequent to November 22, 1963?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; not to my knowledge.
Mr. JENNER. Or any employer or fellow employee of yours?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. JENNER. And I take it from your previous answer, which was that these names were unfamiliar to you, that they certainly did not contact you--at least you did not know consciously that they contacted you.
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. This is not, I anticipate, fully repetitious, Mr. Chairman, but an inquiry has been made--I just want to make certain of it. Were you at all aware as to whether in October of 1962--aware of the fact, that for a short time Marina resided with Elena Hall?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I was not.
Mr. JENNER. And were you aware that there was for a short period of time some argument or fight between your brother and Marina which may have played a part in her visiting in the home of Elena Hall for a short time in October 1962?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I was not.
Mr. JENNER. I take it, sir, this is all completely new to you. You have no information on this subject.
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. You were not aware of anything of this nature at that time?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. McKenzie described at length yesterday Mr. George De Mohrenschildt. As I recall it, your testimony was that you were unacquainted with this gentleman.
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever hear either your brother--were you present when either your brother or Marina discussed, or may have discussed Mr. De Mohrenschildt?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not been.
Mr. JENNER. Are you aware of any threat that your brother uttered against or may have uttered against Mr. De Mohrenschildt?
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Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I am not aware of any threat.
Mr. JENNER. You are now aware of the photograph of your brother with the pistol on his hip and holding the rifle and also holding a sheaf of papers, are you not?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I am.
Mr. JENNER. And did you see that photograph by any chance at any time prior to November 22, 1963?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not. Or did not.
Mr. JENNER. You were unaware that it had been taken?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. DULLES. Did you know that your brother had either the gun or the pistol?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.
Mr. DULLES. Or had acquired the gun or pistol?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. JENNER. Did Marina, following November 22, 1963, herself also acquire the same antipathy that you have testified you had with respect to the Paines?
Mr. OSWALD. I would be of the opinion, sir, that she has not or does not have the antipathy that I have to the Paines. However, I feel confident that she has followed my advice along that line, and not contacted Mr. or Mrs. Paine since November 23, 1963.
Mr. JENNER. All right, sir.
Mr. DULLES. Did you have the impression that Mrs. Paine had some ulterior motive, other than a good motive, desire to befriend Marina when she was in some distress, and to gain the chance to talk Russian with her?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I would not have an opinion of that, since I was, not aware of the circumstances of how they did become acquainted, and consequently started living in her residence in Irving, Tex.
Mr. DULLES. I gathered from your previous testimony that your feeling, visceral feeling, related both to Mrs. Paine and to Mr. Paine.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it did. More so, if I might add, sir, to Mr. Paine than Mrs. Paine. But still I will include both of them in that answer.
Mr. DULLES. Did you know anything of Mr. Paine's background and affiliations?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. DULLES. You knew of Mrs. Paine's interest in learning Russian, did you not, and in Russian matters?
Mr. OSWALD. Following November 22, 1963, this has been reported to me.
Mr. DULLES. By Marina?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I believe I read this in various reported news articles and magazines that she has stated this was her intention.
Mr. DULLES. And Marina did not talk to you about either of the Paines particularly?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; not to any extent.
Mr. JENNER. Your information with respect to the Paines, other than your meeting them, I believe you said, the evening of November 22, and later in the Inn of ,the Six Flags, is based primarily--in addition to that on items you have read in the newspaper and that sort of thing?
Mr. OSWALD. Sir, to fully understand the question, you referred to a meeting of Mr. and Mrs. Paine at the Inn of the Six Flags?
Mr. JENNER. I thought you said that Mrs. Paine--or was it Mrs. Ford in the. Inn of the Six Flags?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; neither of the ladies you have mentioned. were in the Inn of the Six Flags.
Mr. JENNER. Then your whole acquaintance with the Paines was your being introduced to them, is that correct?
Mr. OSWALD. No. sir; that is not correct.
Mr. JENNER. Would you relate your acquaintance with the Paines, and when it first arose?
Mr. OSWALD. The first occasion that I met Mr. and Mrs. Paine, was at the Dallas police station on the night of November 22, 1963.
Mr. DULLES. May I ask there--had you heard about them before?
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Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I had not.
Mr. DULLES. Hadn't even heard about them?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I had not. And my subsequent second meeting with Mr. and Mrs. Paine--and I might add my last meeting with Mr. and Mrs. Paine-- was at their home in Irving, Tex., on the day that Mr. John Thorne, Mr. Jim Martin and myself-- for the purpose of picking up Marina N. Oswald's and Lee Harvey Oswald's personal belongings. This was the only time that I have met them since the night of November 22, 1963.
Mr. DULLES. Did anything transpire on that occasion, when you were taking up Marina's and your brother's belongings?
Mr. OSWALD. Perhaps, sir, the only thing that I recall that would perhaps be of some type of significance was that Mr. Paine, at the approximate time we were ready to depart from his home, called me over to the side and stated that he would like to know where Marina was staying, and they would like to be in contact with her. And my comment to him was that Marina was leaving the area, and that she was to be well taken care of. And at that time we left.
Mr. DULLES. Do you know whether the Paines have been in touch with Marina since that particular time, when you left the Paine's home?
Mr. OSWALD. To my knowledge, sir, they have not in person been in contact with Marina Oswald. However, it is my understanding from Mr. Jim Martin and Mrs. Marina Oswald that Mrs. Paine has written a number of letters to Mrs. Marina Oswald during her stay at the Martin's home in Dallas, Tex.
Mr. DULLES. Do you know the content of those letters?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not.
Mr. DULLES. Do you know whether Marina still has them in her possession?
Mr. OSWALD. I would be of the opinion that she does, sir. And the only comment she had made to me directly, or Mr. Martin perhaps made to me, as to the contents of the letters was that they wanted to talk with Marina, they wanted to be in contact with Marina in person.
Mr. DULLES. Thank you.
Mr. JENNER. Off the record.
(Discussion off the record)
Mr. DULLES. Back on the record.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Oswald, during all of the time that your brother and your sister-in-law Marina resided in Fort Worth, Tex., were you aware of any occasion when your sister resided or visited with, and lived with, anyone else other than your brother Lee in their home?
Mr. OSWALD. Sir, if I may correct you--you referred to her as my sister.
Mr. JENNER. I meant sister-in-law.
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I was not acquainted at any time that she did.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have any knowledge or acquaintance with whether Marina did any shopping on her own?
Mr. OSWALD. During the period that they were in Fort Worth, Tex., sir?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I am acquainted.
Mr. JENNER. Would you relate your knowledge in that respect?
Mr. OSWALD. A conversation with my wife on return home from work one afternoon, approximately the later part of June 1962--correction, sir.
It was not a conversation with my wife--it was a conversation with my mother, at approximately the latter part of August 1962, or first part of October 1962. And, to the best of my recollection, the conversation was to the effect that Lee Harvey Oswald had gone downtown in Fort Worth, Tex. looking for a job, and that Marina wanted to find Lee while he was downtown, and even though reportedly from my mother that she insisted that she not leave the house, she did, carrying the baby, June Lee Oswald with her, and walked approximately 15 or 16 blocks into downtown Fort Worth.
It is my understanding that she became lost or needed assistance in her directions, in her attempt either to find Lee Harvey Oswald or return home,
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that she asked the assistance of a police officer, and that apparently she did not have any other difficulty.
It is my understanding at that time that she did purchase either some baby clothes or perhaps some clothes for herself.
Mr. JENNER. And this was all related to you by your mother?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And does that exhaust your fund of knowledge as to any shopping trips or visiting and shopping at a local shopping center or stores by Marina?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir--prior to November 1963.
Mr. JENNER. November 22, 1963?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes. sir; that is correct.
Mr. DULLES. The diary, or memorandum, has considerable information, may recall, with purchases that were made by others for Marina and the child, as I recall.
Mr. JENNER. That was afterward.
Mr. DULLES. That was afterward?
Mr. OSWALD. If I may, sir, I do recall another instance.
In the presence of myself, Lee Harvey Oswald and Mrs. Marina and the baby June Lee Oswald, approximately the middle of June the occasion was a grocery shopping for my family and for----
Mr. JENNER. June of 1963?
Mr. OSWALD. Thank you, sir. June of 1962. And this was to my knowledge----
Mr. JENNER. Your statement 1963 was a slip of the tongue?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
And there was, to my knowledge, at that time the first occasion that Mrs. Marina Oswald had ever been in a supermarket of the nature that is found in the United States.
Mr. JENNER. Tell us about the occasion.
Mr. OSWALD. I remember the occasion quite vividly. If you ever have the opportunity, sir, to take a person of that nature into a supermarket or an average size store, and watch the expression on their face, as to the magnitude of the food and the variety of the food that was in her presence--and I believe for the first time to any extent--it was quite a pleasant observation, I might add, sir. She was quite overwhelmed.
Mr. JENNER. Surprised and overwhelmed?
Mr. OSWALD. Surprised----
Mr. DULLES. There is nothing like it in Minsk.
Mr. OSWALD. I feel certain, sir, there is not.
Mr. JENNER. Did you get the impression that her reaction was such to indicate that at least she had never seen anything of this nature?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I was of the exact opinion she had not seen anything anywhere comparable to that in the nature of a food store.
Mr. JENNER. Now, did you get the impression this was a spontaneous reaction on her part?
Mr. OSWALD. Most certainly it was, sir.
Mr. JENNER. She was not putting on an act to impress you and Lee and anyone accompanying you?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. This is of interest, Mr. Chairman, particularly the spontaneity.
Mr. DULLES. Was that in Dallas or Fort Worth?
Mr. OSWALD. This was in Fort Worth, Tex.
Mr. JENNER. This is while they were living with you, Mr. Oswald?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. How did this arise? Did you just decide--was this part of showing her Fort Worth, or was it developed from desiring to go to the super-market to purchase something, or was it a combination of both?
Mr. OSWALD. Sir, I believe it was a combination of both.
If I might add, the store that I went into was not the store that I usually purchased groceries from.
Mr. JENNER. You were leading--you were doing the leading of this party?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
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Mr. JENNER. And, in addition to yourself and Marina, who was present?
Mr. OSWALD. Only the baby, June Lee Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. Just the two of you going, and you were showing her around the town?
Mr. OSWALD. And Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mr. DULLES. And you made some purchases?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; we did. And she made some purchases. Or she selected some items.
Mr. DULLES. Can you tell us whether Marina had from time to time a certain amount of money for her own disposition? Did your brother Lee leave her money?
Mr. OSWALD. Not to my knowledge that he did, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Would it be your impression that he did not?
Mr. OSWALD. It would be my impression that he did not.
Mr. JENNER. I would appreciate it if you would proceed to tell about your taking her around on this particular day, and her reactions, perhaps, to other things that you showed her in Fort Worth at this early stage of her being in this country.
Mr. OSWALD. Her reactions in the supermarket, sir, as I have testified, I believe to be completely spontaneous, and certainly from all appearances it was entirely new to her. I do recall we started off in the section of the store do you want me to name the store, sir?
Mr. JENNER. Yes; you might do that.
Mr. OSWALD. It was a Safeway Grocery Store, located on Camp Bowie and Ridglea addition of Fort Worth, Tex.
Mr. JENNER. I take it Camp Bowie is the name of a street?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And you obtained any additional impressions as you made this tour of. Fort Worth, that is, as to her reactions to her new surroundings?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. She reacted to a walk that we took after leaving the grocery store and drove across the street to a suburban shopping center, with a large variety of different type stores. I do not recall going into any particular store. We were, as the term is applied, window shopping. And she was quite impressed at the articles of clothing, of jewelry, of shoes, and such items as might be displayed in this type of suburban shopping center which would more or less encompass a full variety of practically everything other than large appliances at this time.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
At any time prior to November 22, 1963, did you become acquainted with her habits, if any, with respect to independent shopping on her part--that is, shopping by herself for foodstuffs or articles of clothing for little June or for herself?
Mr. OSWALD. None other than, sir, that I have already related as related by my mother to me.
Mr. JENNER. Is the name Hutch's Market familiar to you?
Mr. OSWALD. It is not.
Mr. JENNER. You testified yesterday that, as I recall--and if I am incorrect, please correct me--that your impression at least was that your mother was opposed to your marriage?
Mr. OSWALD. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Am I correct up to that point?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is right.
Mr. JENNER. Without the degree of that opposition. Was it quite affirmative? Did she make any scene? Did she talk-- express to you unequivocally her opposition?
Give us those circumstances, please.
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do. not recall any specific instance where she firmly stated that she was against my marriage. It might have been little things along that line she might have said to me that I do not recall formulated my opinion that she was to some degree at least having objections to my marriage.
Mr. JENNER. But did you have the feeling, and was it conveyed to you, that she was quite affirmatively opposed to your marriage?
Mr. OSWALD. I would say generally; yes, sir.
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Mr. JENNER. All right.
Did Marina and your mother stay at the Adolphus Hotel in Dallas?
Mr. OSWALD. In what period?
Mr. JENNER. Before they moved to the Executive House?
Mr. DULLES. Right after November 22--maybe the night of November 22. I think they had a room and moved out.
Mr. JENNER. I thought the witness referred to the Adolphus Hotel yesterday.
Mr. McKENZIE. He has not referred to the Adolphus Hotel.
Mr. OSWALD. I believe that is right.
My first occasion to meet with my mother and Marina Oswald on November 23, 1963----
Mr. JENNER. That is a Saturday.
Mr. OSWALD. Was at the Adolphus Hotel, rather than the Baker Hotel, as noted in my notes on page 10, in my diary.
Mr. JENNER. I had noted that, Mr. Oswald. And would you identify the page to which you have reference now?
Mr. OSWALD. Page 10, Sir.
Mr. JENNER. Page 10 of your memorandum?
Mr. OSWALD. That is right. And I might point out at the time I wrote it down in parens--"I believe. In other words, my statement was "I received a call from mother while at the DA's office, and she advised she was at the Baker Hotel--I believe."
Mr. JENNER. And your recollection has now been refreshed that it was the Adolphus Hotel rather than the Baker Hotel?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I am of the opinion now it was the Adolphus Hotel rather than the Baker Hotel.
Mr. JENNER. And then the next day they were moved to or themselves moved to Executive House.
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; that is not correct. They were moved later on, on Saturday, November 23, 1963, to the Executive Inn.
Mr. JENNER. Executive Inn that is called?
Mr. OSWALD, Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Rather than Executive House?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is right.
Mr. JENNER. They went from the Adolphus Hotel in Dallas to the Executive Inn.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. That is my understanding, that they did.
Mr. JENNER. I see.
Mr. DULLES. Were those quarters, as far as you recall, retained for the Life people, Life, Time, Fortune people?
Mr. OSWALD. In my conversation with my mother on Saturday, November 23, while I was at the district attorney's office in Dallas, Tex., she related to me at that time that they had furnished her and Marina Oswald and the babies three rooms at the Adolphus Hotel, and that Life magazine was paying for these rooms, and that they could keep these rooms as they wanted--as long as they wanted to be close to Lee and the situation that was erupting in Dallas, Tex. at this time.
Mr. JENNER. I see.
Did you, during this period of time, have occasion to visit them at the Adolphus Hotel?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. JENNER. And is that recorded in your memorandum.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it is.
Mr. JENNER. Then I don't wish to burden the record by asking you about it again.
Did you have occasion to visit them at the Executive Inn?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. JENNER. And is that recorded in your memorandum?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it is. it is.
Mr. JENNER. Identify the page, please.
Mr. OSWALD. That begins on page 14, at the bottom of the page, under the date of Sunday, November 24, 1963.
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Mr. JENNER. And on that same day, did they move to the Inn of the Six Flags?
Mr. OSWALD. That is right--later on in the afternoon, Sunday, November 24.
Mr. JENNER. Did you accompany them on that occasion?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did. I was in a separate car, but they were in the same party.
Mr. JENNER. All three phases, Mr. Oswald--Adolphus Hotel, Executive Inn, and the journey to and living at the Inn of the Six Flags, they are recorded in your memorandum?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; they are.
Mr. JENNER. Did there come a time when differences arose between Marina and your mother?
Mr. McKENZIE. You have covered that.
Mr. JENNER. Are you sure?
Mr. McKENZIE. I will submit it to the Chair.
Mr. DULLES. I would think so. I think that has been covered.
Mr. OSWALD. Did you want me to answer that, sir?
Mr. JENNER. We don't want it if it is repetitious.
Mr. OSWALD. I believe that has already been testified to, sir.
Mr. JENNER. During the course of the days immediately following November 22, 1963, whether at the Adolphus or the Executive Inn or the Inn of the Six Flags, did any time arise, any talk with you or in your presence, of a supposed possible conspiracy between the Secret Service men on the one hand and Marina on the other?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; there was not.
Mr. JENNER. Nothing of that character arose, as far as you can recall?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And I may say to you, Mr. Oswald, that the purpose of asking you that question is a statement made by your mother that there was a conspiracy between Marina and the Secret Service to turn Marina against your mother and against your brother, Lee Harvey Oswald, or the memory of your brother.
Mr. OSWALD. I would say to the best of my remembrance of all' happenings at the Inn of the Six Flags that at no time, to my knowledge, was there any type of conspiracy of that nature, and at no time was I aware of any type of conspiracy that would even resemble that statement, sir.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. DULLES. As I recall, however, you have testified that you discussed with the Secret Service the type of interrogation that the FBI were carrying on, and that has been fully presented in the record.
Mr. OSWALD. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Following November 22, 1963, you saw a good deal of Marina, did you not in those few days? You were guiding her and advising her?
Mr. OSWALD. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. And you already testified that on at least one occasion, or maybe two, that you had taken her to your brother's grave in the cemetery.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; on quite a few other occasions also.
Mr. JENNER. In addition?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. DULLES. And in your memorandum or diary--I don't know how we described that, but I think variously as memorandum or diary.
Mr. JENNER. I would say memorandum, except the last pages a diary.
Mr. DULLES. In your memorandum you have recounted certain problems in connection with the funeral arrangements. Is there anything else you would like to add to that?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I would not.
Mr. JENNER. On the basis of your participating in the course of events subsequent to November 22, and your continuing presence at the Inn, and advising your sister-in-law, Marina, do you have an opinion as to whether the Secret Service or anyone else was overly influencing Marina? Or even that they were attempting to influence her?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I believe that--perhaps I did not get the full statement there. I believe you included anyone, including the Secret Service agents.
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Mr. JENNER. Could we confine it to the Secret Service first?
Mr. OSWALD. All right.
In answer to that part of the question, I would say I felt like they were not attempting to influence Marina.
Mr. JENNER. Would it be your impression that they were trying to be completely fair, even leaning over backwards? Or do you have any impression in that respect?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do have an impression and opinion on that.
Mr. JENNER. Would you state it?
Mr. OSWALD. That I felt at no time during our stay at the Inn of the Six Flags during the week of November 25, 1963, including Sunday, November 24, 1963, that the United States Secret Service agents that were present at time or another did anything other than to be extremely helpful to Marina, and not to the point of attempting to affect her judgment or to, so to speak, put words into her mouth, or in any way lead her with relation to the events that had occurred on November 22, 1963, or prior events that she had recorded on her tape recording interview in the Inn of the Six Flags, or the events happened Sunday, November 23, 1963, until the time she left the Inn of' Flags.
In other words, they conducted themselves in a highly admirable way at all times.
Mr. JENNER. Now, would you give us your same opinion with respect to the FBI?
Mr. OSWALD. As I testified yesterday, sir; I was of the opinion on the first and the second interview--and I refer to the first interview as I did yesterday as an attempted interview, and I referred to the second interview, to the my recollection it was the second interview, at which time the FBI, in my opinion, kept Marina Oswald in an interview to the extent that it had almost entirely exhausted her.
Mr. JENNER. Is this the occasion you related to us yesterday, or is another one?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; this is the second occasion, when there was an interview.
Mr. JENNER. Would you please tell us about that, and when it occurred?
Mr. OSWALD. This interview occurred approximately Wednesday night November 27, 1963.
Mr. JENNER. Where?
Mr. OSWALD. At the Inn of the Six Flags, at which time the FBI agents and Mr. Tom Kelley, of the United States Secret Service, left the room that we had been staying in with Marina Oswald and went to the adjoining set of rooms that was located, of course, right next to the room we had been staying, and commenced an interview. It is my understanding that Mr. Kelley was not present at this interview.
However, he was in the adjoining room to that set of rooms, and that he was not permitted to be within the immediate interviewing area.
I do not recall the exact length of this interview. But as the night it became at least apparent to me that due to the state of Marina Oswald at that time, considering all the things that had occurred, and the difficulty that she was having producing enough milk for the baby Rachel, that they were extremely disregarding her own personal welfare at this time.
And I did go to the adjoining rooms, and I believe Mr. Kelley opened the door. And at that time I related to him that the babies had awakened, and that they needed their mother, Marina Oswald. He immediately informed the interviewers in the next room. And as my memory serves me, Mr. Kelley turned to me and stated he was glad I did that, and I stated to him that the babies were still asleep, and I did it on the very purpose of stopping the interview, too, to the length and the nature of Marina's welfare, and to the extent that that was quite late at night.
Mr. DULLES. Were you present during the whole interview?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I was not. I was in the adjoining rooms, keeping an eye just in ease the babies did wake and so forth.
Mr. DULLES. Was there an interpreter present at that time?
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Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. DULLES. Was that FBI or Secret Service interpreter?
Mr. OSWALD. To the best of my memory, sir, that was Mr. Lee Gopadze of the United States Secret Service.
Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Gopadze was participating in the interview?
Mr. OSWALD. That is right.
Mr. DULLES. But only as interpreter.
Mr. OSWALD. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have an opinion as to whether Marina was or is involved in any plot or conspiracy in connection with this affair?
Mr. OSWALD. May I have the first part of that question again?
(The reporter read the question.)
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have an opinion to the contrary? That is, that she is not?
Mr. OSWALD. I am of the opinion, sir, that she is not involved in any conspiracy or was involved in any way with the event that took place on November 22, 1963.
Mr. JENNER. Thank you.
Mr. DULLES. Could I ask a question there?
Do you have any opinion as to whether any American security service, Secret Service, FBI, CIA, were in any way involved in any conspiracy or plot or otherwise involved in this whole affair?
Mr. OSWALD. Sir, you are asking me of my opinion?
Mr. DULLES. Only your opinion, yes--obviously if you have information or any evidence we would like to have it.
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not have any evidence or information along that line. I do have an opinion, sir, qualified to this extent. That it is very difficult for me to feel that Lee Harvey Oswald acted entirely on his own without any assistance whatsoever.
Now, whether this assistance was from my--from any member of any government agency, or just individuals, I do not know. I do feel like he had assistance of one nature or another, sir.
Mr. McKENZIE. Robert, that does not answer Mr. Dulles' question. And I want you to answer his question fully.
Mr. DULLES My question was really directed toward any security agency of the United States Government.
Mr. McKENZIE. If I may state your question, Mr. Dulles, to Mr. Oswald--his question was whether or not any security agency of the United States Government, whether it be the FBI, the Secret Service, the CIA, or any Government agency, had any part in a conspiracy or plot dealing with the events of November 22, and what your opinion is concerning the same.
Mr. DULLES. That is correctly stated.
Mr. OSWALD. All right.
I would correct my answer to this extent, sir. I would be of the opinion that no agency of the United States Government was in any way involved with the assassination of the President of the United States on November 22, 1963. Does that answer the question?
Mr. JENNER. Or in any way involved with your brother's, Lee Harvey Oswald. Would you go that far?
Mr. OSWALD. When we say involved, sir--excluding the interviews that I am aware of and so forth. Yes, sir; I would be of that opinion.
Mr. DULLES. To which you have testified with regard to the FBI and the Immigration and Naturalization.
Mr. OSWALD. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Would you elaborate further, please, when you first undertook to answer Mr. Dulles question--you made some references to an opinion on your part that your brother, Lee Harvey Oswald, must have had some assistance.
Would you please state what you had in mind there? Assistance with what, sir?
Mr. OSWALD. My opinion on that, sir, would be that, concluding that Lee
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Harvey Oswald did actually shoot the President of the United States and Governor Connally of Texas on November 22, 1963--I do feel that he did have assistance to the extent that perhaps some money was given to him, and that other types of assistance, such as perhaps training and orientations as to perhaps the method to be used.
I believe that would conclude my opinion on the assistance I had reference to.
Mr. JENNER. This is based, I gather from what you have just said, on the assumption or opinion--I will say assumption first--that your brother Lee Harvey Oswald did assassinate President Kennedy?
Mr. OSWALD. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. And do you have that opinion?
Mr. OSWALD. That he did assassinate the President of the United States?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. OSWALD. On his own, sir?
Mr. DULLES. Did he handle the gun and shoot the shots?
Mr. JENNER. Let's take it in alternatives. You state it in your own words.
Mr. McKENZIE. He has stated this once before, but I am going to ask him to state it again.
Mr. JENNER. Yes, I would like to have that clearly stated.
Mr. OSWALD. Sir, as I previously testified to that question, based on the circumstantial evidence that has been put forth and that I have read from the newspapers and general impression of the time that the event took place, and the subsequent following days of that event, that I would be of the opinion, purely based on these circumstantial points, that he did actually fire the rifle that killed the President of the United States and wounded the Governor of Texas, Mr. Connally.
Mr. DULLES. The same would apply to the attack on Officer Tippit?
Mr. OSWALD. I would base my opinion on Officer Tippit's death, sir, on my conversation with the District Attorney of Dallas, Tex., on the morning of Saturday, November 23, 1963, at which time during our conversation he said in his mind and based on the evidence and the eye witnesses, that he was reported to have, that there was no question to him that Lee Harvey Oswald did in fact kill Officer J. D. Tippit in Dallas, Tex.
Mr. McKENZIE. And you believe that would be correct?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe that would be correct.
Mr. JENNER. Have you had any conversation with Marina----
Mr. DULLES. Just one point on that.
You have testified that you felt that your brother did have or would have required some outside help or assistance to do what he did--roughly to that effect, I believe.
Mr. OSWALD. That is right
Mr. DULLES. Have you any idea at all or any thoughts as to what kind of help, where that could have come from, who was involved.
I have in mind--was this in your opinion a rightist plot, a leftist plot, an anarchist plot?
Mr. OSWALD. If I may take your question, sir; in the parts that you pointed out--I believe the first part was to where and how.
Mr. DULLES. And who.
Mr. JENNER. May have assisted.
Mr. OSWALD. The where and the how, sir, I am not of any opinion. And as to who might have assisted him, as related in my diary, or memorandum----
Mr. JENNER. Identify the page, please.
Mr. OSWALD. On page 6--and I quote--"I still do not know why or how, but Mr. and Mrs. Paine are somehow involved in this affair."
I am still of that opinion, sir.
And as to any other persons that I might suggest was involved in any way in this affair, I do not know of their names nor can I identify them in any way.
Mr. DULLES. As this covers two of my questions----
Mr. JENNER. Why don't you proceed.
Mr. DULLES. May I proceed at this time.
I will proceed with a couple of questions I have at this time.
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Mr. OSWALD. Pardon me, sir; may I interrupt you here? And I would like to add something to my previous statement there.
Mr. DULLES. Please, yes.
Mr. OSWALD. Perhaps there is one other person that I feel like would be involved in this affair, and the subsequent death of my brother, Lee Harvey Oswald, and that was the man that actually shot Lee Harvey Oswald, Mr. Jack Ruby or Mr. Rubenstein. And that would be the only other party that I could possibly attempt to identify that I feel like would have been involved and perhaps assisted Lee in this assassination.
Mr. JENNER. Would you please give us the basis of your opinion?
Mr. OSWALD. I am of the opinion, as previously stated, based on newspaper accounts and magazine articles of Mr. Ruby's activities, to the best of my remembrance, as reported in one newspaper I recall reading after November 24, 1963, that a period of a couple of months, 2 or 3 months, prior to Mr. Ruby's killing my brother, Lee Harvey Oswald, in a Dallas police station, that he appeared at the Dallas police station and started making acquaintances at the Dallas police station to the extent that he, from then on, appeared frequently and was able to move about the Dallas police station very easily.
Based on that and the shooting of Lee Harvey Oswald, I am of the opinion that Mr. Ruby did in fact know Lee Harvey Oswald prior to Sunday, November 23, 19--Sunday, November 24, 1963, and that he was in my opinion paid to silence Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mr. DULLES. This is based on--this opinion is based on what you have read in the press subsequent to November 22?
Mr. OSWALD. November 24; sir, 1963, the day of my brother's death. Up until that time I had never heard of Mr. Jack Ruby.
Mr. DULLES. I was including all of the press accounts that carried through from the time of the assassination.
Mr. JENNER. Well, the witness has referred, of course, to events immediately preceding November 22--that is Mr. Ruby's apparent interest in--his frequent visits to the quarters--did you say the police department?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; the Dallas police station.
Mr. DULLES. I was trying to get at also--to cover what you had previously said about possible aid in connection with the assassination of the President.
Is that based largely on what you have read subsequent thereto?
Mr. OSWALD. That is right.
Mr. DULLES. This question of mine covers the whole period of your relationship with your brother.
Do you recall during that entire period, up to November 22, that your brother made any comments with regard to President Kennedy of a derogatory nature or character or of any other character? Did he ever discuss the President with you during the whole period? Of course, he was only President for the last 3 years.
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not recall at any time that he ever mentioned President Kennedy's name or referred to him in any way, either pro or con.
Mr. DULLES. Governor Connally--the same question.
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; not as Governor Connally.
Mr. DULLES. Or as Secretary of the Navy?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; to the extent that he had mentioned his letter to Governor Connally, his request for his assistance in correcting the dishonorable or undesirable discharge that he had received from the United States Marine Corps.
Mr. DULLES. What was his comment with regard to Mr. Connally, Secretary of the Navy, and later Governor?
Mr. McKENZIE. If you recall, go ahead and tell him. But it is covered in some of the letters previously introduced into testimony.
Mr. JENNER. If there was any discussion, I would. like to have that. And I take it, Mr. Chairman, you are interested in that as well.
Mr. DULLES. I am interested in that, because there has been some testimony here from Mrs. Oswald to the general effect that he had not expressed any antipathy to Secretary of the Navy and Governor Connally, but rather the contrary
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I would like to get your impression of that, what he might have said to you on that subject.
Mr. OSWALD. All right.
I do recall a conversation at my home in Fort Worth, Tex., between myself and Lee Harvey Oswald----
Mr. JENNER. Fix the time, please.
Mr. OSWALD. Approximately the middle part of June 1962, at which the subject was brought up by him about his efforts to have the corrected to an honorable discharge, and that again he advised me that had written to the then Secretary of the Navy, John B. Connally, and Connally, or his office had replied that he was no longer the Secretary, of the Navy, and that he had turned over the correspondence to the then Secretary of the Navy, Mr. Korth, I believe.
Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Fred Korth.
Mr. OSWALD. I do not recall any further discussion on that subject. And he did not indicate to me the pro or con of any antipathy toward Mr. Connally.
Mr. DULLES. He expressed no antipathy?
Mr. JENNER. As a person?
Mr. OSWALD. As a person, he did not make any comment, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And did he at any time, apart from this particular event you are now relating, at any time prior to November 22, 1963, ever express any antipathy toward Governor Connally as a person?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he did not.
Mr. DULLES. Did you ever hear Marina Oswald express any views about President Kennedy one way or the other?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not recall at any time that she has expressed any views on Mr. Kennedy.
Mr. DULLES. Do you recall at any time that Lee Harvey Oswald expressed antipathy to government in general, people in authority, leaders?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not recall.
Mr. DULLES. Did he express any--apart from the letters, what he said in his letters to you, which we have--but after he returned from the Soviet Union, and during the period you saw him, subsequent to his return, did he ever discuss with you the failures of government, that government itself was not good, or if the kind of government we had in the United States was not good, as was expressed to some extent in the letters?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not recall at any time other than in his letters during the period of the latter part of 1959, at any time that he made any derogatory remarks about any official or any particular leader or the government of the United States.
Mr. DULLES. And that statement would include General Walker, would it?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it most certainly would.
Mr. DULLES. He never discussed General Walker with you?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I never heard him mention the gentleman's name.
Mr. DULLES. Did your brother have any sort of pet hatreds, institutions, people or otherwise, that he disliked, apart from what he said in his letters?
I am talking now of the period after his return from Russia.
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; to my knowledge he did not.
Mr. DULLES. I have nothing further at this time. I may have one last question at the end.
Do you wish to follow up on any of these points?
Mr. JENNER. No; not right at the moment.
Would you take your diary. There are one or two items that I would like to clear up.
Page 1--you speak of the old Denton plant and the new Denton plant. Would you please locate those plants?
Mr. OSWALD. They are both located at Denton, Tex., and they are located approximately a mile apart, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And they are the plants of the Acme Brick Co. by whom you are employed?
Mr. OSWALD. That is right.
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Mr. JENNER. And the reason I asked you about these is that you talk about going from the old to the new plant, and I wanted to locate them.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. The incident in New Orleans in which your brother was distributing literature of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee--did that come to your attention at that time?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; that did not.
Mr. JENNER. And when was the first time that you became you ever heard of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee, or anything about it?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe this to be, sir, to the best of my remembrance, on Friday night, November 22, 1963, at the FBI office in Dallas, Tex.
Mr. DULLES. You are referring there, I assume, to Lee Harvey Oswald's connection with the committee, aren't you? Or are you referring to the fact whether he knew there was a committee.
Mr. JENNER. Both.
I will separate those. Did you know there was such a committee at any time up to that occasion--had you heard of its existence?
Mr. OSWALD. Perhaps I had read about it in the paper and not recalling any significant value to myself I perhaps had forgotten about it.
Mr. JENNER. Then I will ask you the other part.
Had you heard of any connection on the part of your brother with or any activity on his part with respect to the Fair Play for Cuba Committee, prior to November 22, 1963.
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I had not.
Mr. DULLES. You knew nothing of his short arrest in New Orleans?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. DULLES. You didn't even know he was arrested?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. I did not even know he had traveled from Dallas, Tex., to New Orleans, until that night of November 22, 1963.
Mr. JENNER. Page 2 of your memorandum--you recited there that an announcer--I assume a radio station announcer-- called you. Did you find that?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do find the ares that you are referring to. The announcer did not call me, sir. It was the radio announcer on the radio.
Mr. JENNER. I see.
And what did the announcer say?
Mr. OSWALD. To the best of my remembrance, sir, the announcer stated that a man identified as Lee Oswald had been arrested in connection with a policeman's death and possibly the death of the President of the United States on or about that approximate time.
Mr. JENNER. And was that the first intimation of any kind or character, or the first notice or knowledge to you, of the possible involvement of your brother, Lee Harvey Oswald, either in the murder of Policeman Tippit or in the assassination of President Kennedy.
Mr. OSWALD. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. And where were you when that announcement was made?
Mr. OSWALD. I was in the office of the new Denton plant when this announcement was made, or at least I first became aware of the announcement on the radio at that time.
Mr. JENNER. Now, would you give us your immediate mental reaction when you heard that?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe, sir, my reaction to that would be somewhat stunned.
Mr. JENNER. Stunned in the sense of disbelieving? You just could not absorb it?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; not to that extent. If I may say this. My own personal mental attitude, through my entire life, seems to react to trouble to the extent that I do not perhaps go to pieces, so to speak, that I react apparently calmly in the face of adversity.
Mr. JENNER. I take it with that disposition that you have that anything in life is possible no matter how extraordinary it may seem at the moment--you retain a grip on yourself?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; or at least attempt to.
Mr. JENNER. You were disbelieving, but it might have been--at least your
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thought was that it was possible, though, you were disbelieving at the moment?
Mr. OSWALD. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Then you state in your memorandum on page 2 that you immediately called your wife Vada.
Mr. OSWALD. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. And you went directly to the phone and called her?
Mr. OSWALD. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. What did you say to her?
Mr. OSWALD. I asked her first had she been listening to the television or the radio set, and was she aware that Lee had been arrested. She stated she had not heard this, even though she had been listening to television.
In her statement to me, to the best of my recollection at that time, was that they had not, over the television set, referred to Lee by name.
Mr. JENNER. And, as I recall in your memorandum, you immediately told her you were going to come right home.
Mr. OSWALD. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. And you did depart for home?
Mr. OSWALD. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. On page 3 of your memorandum, you make a reference to brother's arrest. Would you find that place on page 3? The report to you of his arrest.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have it.
Mr. JENNER. And as I recall, that was a report to you that he arrested?
Mr. OSWALD. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. By whom, and by what means?
Mr. OSWALD. Over the telephone, by Mr. Dubose, the credit manager in our Fort Worth general office. And, "Bob, brace yourself, your brother has been arrested."
Mr. JENNER. What did you say?
Mr. OSWALD. "Yes; I know. I just heard".
Mr. JENNER. Did Mr. Dubose elaborate? Did he say only your brother has been arrested?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. To the best of my recollection that was his exact words.
Mr. JENNER. Did he add, if I may refresh your recollection, assuming it so, that he had been arrested in connection with the assassination of President Kennedy, and the murder of Officer Tippit?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I believe I did not give him an opportunity, if he wanted to state that, to complete his statement.
Mr. JENNER. You have now given us the whole of that particular conversation?
Mr. OSWALD. That is right.
If I might add--other than that as noted on page 3, that he did advise me that my mother was trying to reach me, and gave me a number to call.
Mr. JENNER. I wish to go to that next. You did call her?
Mr. OSWALD. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. And where was she? To where was your call directed?
Mr. OSWALD. To Fort Worth, Tex., to which address I am not acquainted, but the telephone number is her residence in Fort Worth, Tex. I believe that to be 1220 Thomas Place.
Mr. JENNER. And when you called that number, your mother was home?
Mr. OSWALD. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. All right. What did you say to her?
Mr. OSWALD. My comment to her that this was Robert, and she immediately started advising me of what she had heard, and that she had been contact with a Star Telegram reporter.
Mr. JENNER. That is the Star Telegram reporter for the Dallas Star Telegram?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, for the Fort Worth Star Telegram, sir.
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Mr. JENNER. Thank you.
Mr. OSWALD. And that she was going to go to Dallas in the presence of this Fort Worth Star Telegram, and she asked me did I have enough money to fly down immediately.
I advised her I was 35 or 30 miles away from Dallas, Tex., that I was not in Arkansas, and that it was my intention to go to Dallas just as fast as possible. And she stated that she believed she would stay at the Baker Hotel, and asked me to meet her there.
I agreed to this. However, this meeting never did take place at the Baker Hotel.
Mr. JENNER. A meeting did take place at the Adolphus?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. As prior testimony--at the Dallas police station, on the night of November 22, 1963.
Mr. JENNER. You referred to, on page 3--to a Fort Worth general office, and a gentleman by the name of Reger.
Mr. OSWALD. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. And that is the Fort Worth general office of the Acme Brick Co.?
Mr. OSWALD. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. You mentioned another gentleman there. I don't know if I read your writing correctly. Bill----
Mr. OSWALD. Darwin.
Mr. JENNER. Did you speak with him on that occasion that you related in your notes?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. JENNER. And what was the purpose of your talking with those gentlemen?
Mr. OSWALD. The purpose of talking to Mr. Darwin was to advise him that I needed to go to Dallas, and his immediate reply was yes, he had just heard--I believe he did say--about Lee, or about my brother, and that I was to do just anything that I deemed necessary and not worry about the office.
And he did inform me at the latter part of this conversation that the FBI had called the Fort Worth general office in an attempt to talk to me or to locate me.
Mr. JENNER. Was any suggestion made by him at that time that you get in touch with the Fort Worth Office of the FBI?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I advised him that I would contact the FBI upon completion of our conversation.
Mr. JENNER. And you did so?
Mr. OSWALD. I did so.
Mr. JENNER. And a reference to that----
Mr. DULLES. By telephone?
Mr. OSWALD. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. A reference to that appears on page 4 of your memorandum.
Mr. OSWALD. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. I won't go into that interview. But on that occasion, and all other occasions when you had interviews with, or were interviewed either by the FBI or Secret Service, you related the whole truth and nothing but the truth to the best of your knowledge and information at the time you were being interviewed?
Mr. OSWALD. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. At this moment, had you contacted anyone other than those you have now mentioned?
Up to this point of the sequence of events?
Mr. OSWALD. May I qualify that question--outside of my office in Denton, Tex., sir.
Mr. JENNER. The office in Denton, Tex., the call to your mother, the call to Mrs. Oswald, your wife Vada, the call to the FBI office.
Mr. OSWALD. No. Sir; I did not.
Mr. JENNER. Are all of the contacts that you had and all of the occasions of interviews during the period November 22, 1963, through the following week, November 25, recorded in your memorandum?
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Mr. DULLES. I wonder if to save time we could ask him to review that memorandum and to report if he finds that there are other calls that were made.
Mr. JENNER. Will that be acceptable to you Mr. McKenzie?
Mr. McKENZIE. Fine.
Mr. Dulles, it is a quarter of one. Being as how it is a quarter of one, I know you have a luncheon meeting to go to. Our plane does not leave until 5 o'clock. We have to leave here no later than 3:30. We will be glad to have lunch and come back, if it would suit your convenience.
Mr. JENNER. There are a couple of things, in the interests really of Mr. Oswald, that have turned up, when I studied the memorandum last night, that I am sure Mr. McKenzie would like to have.
Mr. DULLES. Yes; I would like to give Mr. McKenzie plenty of time.
If the car is there, I can wait another 5 or 10 minutes. But I think that it would be better if I were to come back.
We will recess at this time until 2 p.m.
(Whereupon, at 12:45 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)
Afternoon Session
TESTIMONY OF ROBERT EDWARD LEE OSWALD RESUMED
The President's Commission reconvened at 2 :30 p.m.
Mr. DULLES. The Commission will come to order.
Mr. JENNER. Returning to page 1 of your memorandum, as I recall your recording of the events of that day, November 22, 1963, you first learned of the assassination or attempted assassination as of that moment of President Kennedy while you were at lunch with some fellow workers.
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And would you identify those fellow workers, please?
Mr. OSWALD. If I might----
Mr. McKENZIE. I ask you to withdraw that.
Mr. JENNER. All right. You don't like the expression "fellow workers"?
Mr. DULLES. You object to the whole question, or just the way it was phrased?
Mr. McKENZIE. Let's rephrase it, Mr. Dulles, if I may, please.
Mr. JENNER. I will yield to you, Mr. McKenzie. Fellow employees.
Mr. McKENZIE. That is fine.
Mr. JENNER. You were at lunch with fellow employees of Acme Brick Co.?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Would you please identify those gentlemen?
Mr. OSWALD. They are Mr. Bill Darwin, the director of marketing of the Acme Brick Co., Mr. Burnett Henry, director of plants and transportation of the Acme Brick Co., Mr. Bob Oech, who is the Texas division plant manager.
Mr. JENNER. Acme Brick Co.?
Mr. OSWALD. Of Acme Brick Co.
And Mr. Bud Adams, who is the plant manager of both the old and new Denton plants.
Mr. JENNER. And it was at this time and on this occasion at lunchtime that you first heard any intimation or otherwise of the assassination or attempted assassination of President Kennedy?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. At the completion of our lunch, as we were departing from the restaurant, as noted in my memorandum, page 1.
Mr. JENNER. Now, you speak on that page of driving in an automobile, either all or some of you gentlemen.
Whose automobile was that?
Mr. OSWALD. All of us were in one automobile, and we were in Mr. Burnett Henry's automobile.
Mr. JENNER. And I take it--did the automobile have a radio in it?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it did.
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Mr. JENNER. And did you gentlemen have the radio in operation?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; we did.
Mr. JENNER. And listening to it?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; we were.
Mr. JENNER. Were you listening to anything in particular?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. What?
Mr. OSWALD. We were listening to a newscast of the events that had already taken place in Dallas, Tex., at approximately 12:30 that afternoon.
Mr. JENNER. And you record the time in your notebook?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir--as approximately 1 p.m., sir.
Mr. JENNER. I think we had reached page 6 of your memorandum.
You record on pages 4 and 5--I think towards the bottom of page 4, and the upper portion of page 5--your meeting that day or early evening with Marina and, I believe your mother--but at least Marina. Is that correct?
In Dallas?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And just for the purpose of making sure of the record, I gather from your testimony yesterday that this was the first time that you had seen Marina since Thanksgiving Day of 1962?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And where did this visit take place--here did you meet her on this occasion?
Mr. OSWALD. At the Dallas police station.
Mr. JENNER. Did she have either or both of her children with her?
Mr. OSWALD. She had both of her children with her.
Mr. JENNER. That would include the infant Rachel?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Were you advised at any time prior to this occasion that her second child had been born to her?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I had not been.
Mr. JENNER. And this was the first information you had on this subject?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. DULLES. You probably knew that a child was contemplated.
Mr. JENNER. Well, he might not.
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I wasn't aware of that.
Mr. JENNER. Had you even up to that moment been advised directly or indirectly that Marina had been pregnant, from which pregnancy the child Rachel had been born?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I had not been advised.
Mr. JENNER. Was there an interpreter present at the time you visited with Marina: as I recall your mother was present, also.
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Was there an interpreter there at that time?
Mr. OSWALD. There was a Mrs. Paine there, who was acting as an interpreter.
Mr. JENNER. You have now named everybody present--yourself, Marina, and her two children, your mother, yourself, and Mrs. Paine.
Mr. OSWALD. With the exception, sir, that there was a police officer, or my assumption that he was a police officer, in the room.
Mr. JENNER. Was he in uniform or plain clothes?
Mr. OSWALD. Plain clothes.
Mr. DULLES. Mr. Paine was not there at this time?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, he was not.
Mr. DULLES. He came later that day, did he?
Mr. OSWALD. Just a very few minutes after this meeting.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine then acted as interpreter between yourself and Marina and between her and others in the party?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Did you say anything in the presence of everybody to her with respect to the birth of her second child, which came as a complete surprise to you?
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Mr. OSWALD. If memory serves me correct, sir, I did make some type of statement to that effect.
Mr. JENNER. Did you express surprise?
Mr. OSWALD. I feel certain that I did, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall now--you walked into the room, and there was Marina with these others, but with two children, one an infant that you had not seen before. Was it immediately explained to you? Did you inquire as to the identity of the infant? Can you reconstruct that for us?
Mr. OSWALD. To the best of my remembrance on that, sir, possibly during the preceding half hour, when I was talking with my mother, she possibly--this I am not clear--advised me of the second child. If she did not, I was, of course, much more surprised when I walked into the room where Marina was holding the infant. I remember looking at the infant, as Marina held the infant, and making some type of comment about whether or not it was a boy or girl and how old it was.
Mr. JENNER. I don't recall this recorded in your memorandum--and it may very well be that the preceding half hour you had had a meeting. or conference with your mother?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And was that--in whose presence was that conference?
Mr. OSWALD. First in the presence of two or three FBI agents, and a Star Telegram reporter, Fort Worth Star Telegram reporter, at the Dallas police station.
Mr. JENNER. Do you record that event in your memorandum?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do, on page 5.
Mr. JENNER. On page 6 there is a reference, I think I have interpreted your writing, to a Mr. Cummings. Would you find that place on page 6?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have it.
Mr. JENNER. Do I interpret your writing correctly?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. I believe his name to be a Lieutenant Cummings.
Mr. JENNER. That is what I sought. He was an officer of the Dallas police force?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. I believe you record on page 6, that Mr. Cummings, Lieutenant Cummings, or some other--well, I don't want to interpret what you do record--but you received a report at that time, according to your memorandum, of the fact of the arrest of your brother, Lee, in connection with the murder of Officer Tippit.
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Is that the first information you had that your brother had actually been arrested in connection with that incident?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it was not.
Mr. JENNER. When had you first received information in that respect?
Mr. OSWALD. As my prior testimony stated, at the office, at the new Denton plant, when Lee's name was first mentioned, stating that he had been arrested in regards to the shooting to death of a police officer, and possibly the President of the United States.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Page 7--did you, at the time of the events recorded on page 7, see or request to see your brother, Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. JENNER. And of whom did you make that request?
First I would put it this way: Did you see Lee Harvey Oswald on that day or evening?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. JENNER. But you did make a request? Of whom did you make that request?
Mr. OSWALD. To a police officer. I cannot recall his name. He reportedly passed on my request to captain of police, Captain Fritz.
Mr. JENNER. And what was his response?
Mr. OSWALD. The police officer who passed on my request asked that I stay around, that Captain Fritz was quite busy, that he would see me later.
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Mr. JENNER. And did you see Captain Fritz later?
Mr. OSWALD. I did see him, but I did not talk to him. By this, I mean he was in his glass office, within an office, and I did see him through the glass, but I did not talk to Captain Fritz.
Mr. JENNER. What was the disposition of your--at least as of that day--of your request to see your brother?
Mr. OSWALD. None, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Not decided either way?
Mr. OSWALD. I never did receive an answer either way, sir.
Mr. JENNER. I see.
And you eventually left the police station, did you?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. You record on page 7 that you walked to your automobile, do you not?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do.
Mr. JENNER. Now, would you trace your course from the time you left the Dallas City police office to the time you retired that evening?
Mr. OSWALD. You are referring to the time that I first left the Dallas police office?
Mr. JENNER. Yes--art there, and trace your stops to the time you retired for the evening.
Mr. OSWALD. Well, my departure of the Dallas police office I walked to my car that was in a parking lot approximately seven blocks away.
Mr. JENNER. About what time of day or evening was this?
Mr. OSWALD. To the best of my recollection, approximately 8 o'clock at night, sir.
Mr. JENNER. All right, sir. When you left the Dallas police office or station, did you then have a definite route in mind as to where you were going?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. JENNER. You had no arrangements with anybody, and no one had any with you, with respect to where you might or could go.
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Proceed, please.
Mr. OSWALD. On arrival at my car in the parking lot in Dallas, Tex., I started to drive, I did drive to Fort Forth, Tex., by Highway 80.
Mr. JENNER. You were then--you then had in mind doing what--returning home?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; that was not the direction of home, sir. I did not have anything in mind other than I wanted to drive and to arrange my thoughts at that particular time.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Now, you do say, and I quote from your memorandum, "I was attempting to arrange my thoughts and my fears."
Do you find that expression on page 7?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Now, would you please explain to the Commission what was meant when you recorded the sentence, "I was attempting to arrange my thoughts and my fears"?
Mr. OSWALD. What I meant by that statement, sir--not being disrespectful-l believe it speaks for itself in view of the happenings of the day. To further elaborate on that, I wanted to have some time by myself to think about the happenings of the day and the arrest of my brother, Lee Harvey Oswald, and the reference to my fears, whether or not he could have possibly done this. He had been up to that time either accused or arrested for the death of Police Officer J. D. Tippit, and the investigation that was now going on in Dallas as to the death of the President of the United States and the wounding of Governor Connally, of Texas.
Mr. JENNER. All right. You were then driving in your automobile. Did you actually reach Fort Worth?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes. sir; I did.
Mr. JENNER. And then what did you do?
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Mr. OSWALD. After driving through Fort Worth, to the west side of Fort Worth, I turned around and headed back toward Dallas.
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. Up to this point it was continuous driving, except as you might have been resting or waiting a change of stoplight or something of that character?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Did anybody contact you, or did you speak with anybody the period of this drive up to the moment we now have reached?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir: they did not.
Mr. JENNER. All right, sir. You reversed your course and then where did you go?
Mr. OSWALD. When I reversed my course, I still did not have any idea as to exactly where I was going. But I did reverse my course, and I started driving on the turnpike between Fort Worth and Dallas.
Mr. JENNER. Does that have a highway number? I notice you mentioned a Highway 80. Is that the same as the turnpike?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it is not.
Mr. JENNER. Would you explain that, please?
Mr. OSWALD. Highway 80 is on the old highway from Fort Worth to Dallas, the turnpike being a later and more modern trafficway.
Mr. McKENZIE. And a toll road.
Mr. OSWALD. And a toll road.
Mr. JENNER. Did you take Highway 80 in going to Fort Worth?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. JENNER. But you returned by the toll road?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. All right, sir.
I take it you continued your drive--continued to drive along, while you were attempting to rearrange your thoughts.
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And you eventually arrived where?
Mr. OSWALD. At Dallas, Tex., sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did you become a guest of a hotel; did you register anywhere?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I did.
Mr. JENNER. Where?
Mr. OSWALD. At the Statler Hilton Hotel.
Mr. JENNER. In Dallas?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Now, up to that moment, having in mind your route, had anybody contacted you, had you spoken with anybody? Up to the time that you entered the Statler Hilton Hotel to register?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I had spoken to somebody.
Mr. JENNER. Who was that?
Mr. OSWALD. A gas station attendant midway on the turnpike where I stopped to buy gas.
Mr. JENNER. But other than that incident, you had no contact with anyone?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. All right. You registered?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did you go to your room?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. DULLES. Approximately what time was this?
Mr. OSWALD. Approximately 10:30 p.m., that night, sir.
Mr. JENNER. After registering, did you retire for the evening, or did you go somewhere?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not retire for the evening. I did, in fact, go into the coffee room of the Statler Hilton Hotel in Dallas, and have a ham sandwich and some milk, and shortly after completing this, I walked across the street, which was approximately a half a block down the street, to the Dallas police station again.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
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Now, up to that moment, other than was necessary for you to register and your conversation with a waitress, in connection with your having some evening lunch, did you have any contact with anybody?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have any contact at all of any kind or character up to this moment with anybody in connection with the events of the day?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I had not.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
You went across the street to the Dallas City police station?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I did.
Mr. JENNER. Had you had an appointment?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not.
Mr. JENNER. What was your purpose in going across the street for that visit?
Mr. OSWALD. I wanted to speak to Captain Fritz, if possible.
Mr. JENNER. You record on page 8 that you entered the Dallas police station, you were interviewed or consulted by some FBI agents in a small office.
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall their names?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not.
Mr. JENNER. I take it in any event, however, that they questioned you, did they?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And were all the answers that you gave the truth and nothing but the truth to the best of your information, recollection, and belief, at that time?
Mr. OSWALD. It most certainly was, sir.
Mr. JENNER. All right, sir.
When did you learn, if you ever learned, that your brother, Lee Harvey Oswald, had in fact been charged with the assassination of President Kennedy?
Mr. OSWALD. At approximately midnight or a few minutes before midnight, November 22, 1963.
Mr. JENNER. And is that recorded on page 8 of your memorandum?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, it is.
Mr. JENNER. What was your reaction when that information was conveyed to you? What were your thoughts?
Mr. OSWALD. I do not recall if I had any thoughts at that particular time, sir. I did not make any comment that I recall. I believe I just shook my head.
Mr. JENNER. I was going to ask you in connection with page 8, your opinion respecting the possible involvement of your brother, Lee Harvey Oswald, in the assassination of President Kennedy, but Mr. Dulles this morning in his questions has covered that subject, so I will skip it.
Now, did you see Captain Fritz that evening?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not.
Mr. JENNER. Did you attempt to see him?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. JENNER. Did you inquire further with respect to an opportunity on your part that you wished to see your brother?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I had been told so many times that Captain Fritz was quite busy, and I realize, of course, he was, and I let it go at that.
Mr. JENNER. Now, following your visit to the police station, which you do record there, and therefore I won't go into it further, what did you do that evening?
Mr. OSWALD. I returned to my hotel, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And retired?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Now, between the time you left the Statler Hilton Hotel and the time you returned there to retire, were you contacted by anybody or did you have any conversation with anybody respecting the course of events of the day, other than you have recorded in your memorandum?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.
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And I might add I did register under my regular name at the Statler Hilton.
Mr. JENNER. I didn't even think to ask you that, because I assumed it was so. On page 9, you record and report the following morning an occasion when you were in the barber shop of the Statler Hilton, obtaining a shave. Isn't correct, sir?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And you also record an observation by one or both of the I think the gentleman who was shaving you, on the subject of your brother, Lee Harvey Oswald deserved a fair trial like anybody else.
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And then you end up that comment, "but I did leave my barber a 50-cent tip."
That followed an observation on your part that you did not engage in that conversation, and you merely listened.
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Now, would you indicate to me the significance if there is any significance, of the expression "but I did leave my barber a 50-cent tip."
Mr. OSWALD. The only significance, sir, that I put to it at that time was for the first time I was listening to somebody other than police officers and FBI agents as to the past events of the preceding day, and I was more or less hearing again for the first time a reaction, either--pro and con, to these two gentlemen's opinions, who I would take at that time would be average people, as to whether or not Lee did have a right to a fair trial, regardless of what he had done or been accused of.
Mr. JENNER. And do I take it a fair interpretation of your comment is that you were pleased that average everyday people, that their reaction was that your brother, Lee Harvey Oswald, was entitled to, and they hoped he would obtain a fair and impartial trial when put to trial?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And your reference to a 50-cent tip was an emphasis in your own mind of your pleasure that a spontaneous reaction of ordinary people was that he was entitled to and they hoped he would receive a fair and impartial trial?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Would you turn to page 10, please? You record events--you were then in the district attorney's office?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. You refer to a "H. Wade." Who is H. Wade?
Mr. OSWALD. Mr. Henry Wade.
Mr. JENNER. And what office did he hold?
Mr. OSWALD. Dallas District Attorney.
Mr. JENNER. All right. I don't know as I interpret your handwriting clearly. It looks to me as though you have written reference to a Jim Bowie. Who was Jim Bowie?
Mr. OSWALD. First assistant district attorney to Mr. Henry Wade.
Mr. JENNER. On page 10 you use--you make a reference to, or a comment with regard to a conversation which I take it took place between you and Mr. Wade and Mr. Bowie, either or both of them, which was "not too informative." Do you find that?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I do see the section that you are referring to--if I may elaborate on that.
Mr. JENNER. I would like to have you elaborate.
Mr. OSWALD. "Not too informative on either side."
Mr. JENNER. Either side of what?
Mr. OSWALD. Referring to the district attorney's office as one side and my side--as the other side.
Mr. JENNER. On what issue?
Mr. OSWALD. Of the conversations that we had in reference to the legal standing of Lee Harvey Oswald or to his guilt, of the accusations that had been--that he had been charged with.
Mr. JENNER. Would you turn to page 12?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
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Mr. JENNER. There is a reference there to a conversation as to whether Lee Harvey Oswald would say anything to you when and if you interviewed him.
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. What did you have in mind as to the subject matter about which Lee Harvey Oswald might speak with you?
Mr. OSWALD. To the amount of involvement, if any, with relation to the death of the President of the United States on November 22, 1963.
Mr. JENNER. You were then contemplating your prospective conversation with him?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And you use an expression also there that you would do your best. Do you find that.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do.
Mr. JENNER. Now, you would do your best to do what, sir?
Mr. OSWALD. To find out.
Mr. JENNER. From whom?
Mr. OSWALD. From Lee Harvey Oswald, during our conversation or our----
Mr. JENNER. Your prospective interview?
Mr. OSWALD. Our prospective interview, whether or not he did in fact perform the acts, either alone or with other people, that he had been accused of.
Mr. JENNER. I see.
Now, following that conversation that you do record on that page, did you see your brother?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. JENNER. Where?
Mr. OSWALD. Dallas police station.
Mr. JENNER. Will you describe the the surroundings?
Mr. OSWALD. I was taken up on the elevator by a Dallas police officer--Mr. Tom Kelley, inspector from Washington, D.C., U.S. Secret Service joined us, and one agent Mr. Mike Howard. On arrival to the floor where Lee was being held, the police officer passed through a glass slot in the window to another police officer the pass, I believe signed by Captain Fritz, which authorization was for me to see Lee Harvey Oswald. Two or three minutes went by, and I was added that he was now ready to see me, and I was taken to a small room to the left of the elevators on this floor, and no one else was in this room on his side, or my side of the glass partitions that separated the locked side from the unlocked side.
And Lee was standing there before me on the other side of the glass.
Mr. DULLES. Did you have the impression that the officers had told your brother that you were the one who was coming to see him?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. DULLES. Because you just said that the officer said he was ready to see you, and I gained the impression from that----
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir--whether or not I meant by that that--I do not believe that was my full meaning on that statement because I was not aware that they had actually told Lee that it was me he was about to see.
Mr. JENNER. Did you converse with your brother?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. JENNER. By what means?
Mr. OSWALD. By telephone, while looking at him through the glass partition.
Mr. DULLES. How far apart were you, roughly?
Mr. OSWALD. Just a matter of inches.
Mr. JENNER. How long were you in that room, conversing with your brother?
Mr. OSWALD. Approximately 10 minutes.
Mr. JENNER. And as near as you can recall, what did he say to you and what did you say to him?
Mr. OSWALD. I do recall to the best of my ability his first statement to me was "How are you?"
My reply was "I am fine."
I asked him how he was I observed the cuts and bruises on his face. He said he was just fine, and that they were treating him okay. I believe his
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next statement was at this time "I cannot or would not say anything because the line is apparently tapped."
I did not comment on that, and he rather carried the conversation for 2 or 3 minutes.
Mr. JENNER. Would you repeat it to us as best you can recall it, please?
Mr. OSWALD. Sir, I do not recall this particular part of the conversation.
Mr. JENNER. Just do your best.
Mr. OSWALD. I am sorry, sir, I just cannot recall that particular part of the conversation. I might comment on that particular part to this extent. That i felt that it was rather a mechanical conversation from his standpoint. He seemed to be speaking very fast, and there was approximately 2 or 3 minutes of him speaking in this nature. Then I took the initiative and-started speaking to him about the family.
Mr. JENNER. His family?
Mr. OSWALD. About the family, including his family, my family. And also, at this time, when we talked about his family in particular--I believe my question to him was "What about Marina and the children?"
His reply to me at that time was "Don't worry about them. The Paines will take care of them"--that his friends, the Paines, would take care of them satisfactorily.
Mr. JENNER. That Lee's friends, the Paines, would take care of them satisfactorily?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. My reply to him on that was what he considered to be his friends were not mine.
Mr. JENNER. Did he respond to that?
Mr. OSWALD. Not to my recollection, sir.
Mr. DULLES. Were you the first member of the family to see him, or had Marina seen him the day before?
Mr. McKENZIE. Both Marina and Marguerite had seen him before.
Mr. OSWALD. Earlier that afternoon, sir. I was the last member of the family to see him.
Mr. JENNER. Did you say anything about the new child, Rachel?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. JENNER. Did you raise that, or did he?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe I did, sir.
Mr. JENNER. What did you say?
Mr. OSWALD. I simply stated that I had seen the new baby and was not aware of it at that time.
Mr. JENNER. Not aware that the baby had been born?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Did he respond to that?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, he did.
Mr. JENNER. What did he say?
Mr. OSWALD. He smiled and stated he had hoped for a boy rather than a gift. His further comment was, "Well, you know how that goes."
Mr. JENNER. He said nothing, I take it, then, by way of apology or otherwise that you had not theretofore been informed of the birth of this child?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. You record on page 13 of your memorandum---you use this expression: "I was not talking to the Lee I knew."
Do you find that?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do.
Mr. JENNER. Would you read that full sentence?
Mr. OSWALD. "He talked about the Paines as his friends and that they would take care of Marina and the children." Excuse me--I started too soon.
Mr. JENNER. That is all right.
Mr. OSWALD. "I stated who he considered to be his friends were not necessarily mine. I did this to try to get through to him. To me his answers were mechanical and I was not talking to the Lee I knew."
Mr. JENNER. Were you able to get through to him?
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Did you feel you got through to him?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I was not.
Mr. JENNER. And would you elaborate, please, on your expression "I was not talking to the Lee I knew"?
Mr. OSWALD. I was referring more specifically to the first part of our conversation, where his conversation seemed to me, as previously stated, very mechanical.
Mr. JENNER. You had the feeling he was not exposing himself fully to you?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Was this the last time you ever saw your brother?
Mr. OSWALD. Alive, sir?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it was.
Mr. JENNER. On page 14 you record a later conversation after you had left your brother--you have an expression there along the lines that you agreed with someone that if the conversation had been person to person, that things might have been different. Do you find that?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do.
Mr. JENNER. Would you please elaborate on what you meant by that?
Mr. OSWALD. By "we" in that paragraph, sir, on page 14, I am talking about Mr. Tom Kelley, Inspector from Washington, D.C., United States Secret Service, and agent, Mr. Mike Howard.
Our discussion was of the nature I related to them as best I could remember my entire conversation with Lee Harvey Oswald on that afternoon of November 23, 1963, and I was of the opinion, or perhaps expressed, either by Mr. Kelley or Mr. Mike Howard, that had we been placed in a room facing each other, perhaps more could have been learned or something could have been learned about whether or not he was actually guilty or how much he was involved in the assassination of the President of the United States.
Mr. JENNER. Could I elaborate on that? If you talked person to person to him in a room, in which there was assurance there was no bugging, nobody listening to your conversation, that you might have been able to obtain more information from him?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Is that a fair summary?
Mr. OSWALD. That is, sir.
Mr. JENNER. If you wish him to elaborate or expand or amend that, Mr. McKenzie, it is perfectly all right with me.
Mr. McKENZIE. No--that is all right.
Mr. JENNER. Does Mr. Oswald wish to elaborate?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, I have concluded my examination.
On behalf of myself and the staff, I express to Mr. Oswald and to Mr. McKenzie our appreciation for the splendid cooperation that we have received, and the frank and direct answers that the witness has given to all of the questions I have put to him.
Mr. McKENZIE. Thank you, sir.
Mr. DULLES. I am very glad that was put on the record. I entirely share it for the Commission.
Mr. OSWALD. If I could, possibly, sir, at this time----
Mr. JENNER. Would you like to add anything?
Mr. OSWALD. I would like to make one little statement in regard to my memorandum, on page 12.
Mr. JENNER. Proceed.
Mr. OSWALD. In relation or reference to my intentions at that time, as it is now, as recorded on page 12, "Intentions then as now was to find out the truth and nothing else."
Thank you.
Mr. DULLES. Thank you.
I have one question, only one.
You testified, I believe, yesterday that when you met your brother at the airport,
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upon his return from the Soviet Union, that he seemed somewhat pointed that the press was not there to meet him and talk with him.
Do you recall, in your relations with your brother, any other instances where he appeared to desire publicity?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it is my opinion that that was the only time that felt like possibly he did want publicity. At later dates, at my home, in Fort Worth, Tex., where they stayed, on quite a few occasions, either by telephone call or the newspaper reporter actually coming to my home, he stated he did not want to speak to him, and he did not want to see them, and they did not, sir, while he was in the presence of my home.
Mr. DULLES. Thank you very much.
Mr. JENNER. May I ask one further thing?
What is your religion?
Mr. OSWALD. I was raised in the Lutheran religion, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And were all three of you boys so reared?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir
Mr. JENNER. Were you steady churchgoers? Or were you churchgoers at all?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, we were.
Mr. JENNER. All three of you?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; we were.
Mr. JENNER. I have nothing further.
Mr. DULLES. I want to join Mr. Jenner in expressing to you and your counsel, Mr. McKenzie, our thanks for your full and I believe frank testimony. I think you have been very helpful to us. I wish to thank you for it.
Mr. OSWALD. Thank you, sir. And we hope that we have been of some help.
Mr. JENNER. You have.
Mr. McKENZIE. I thank you, Mr. Chairman, for that statement, and likewise, Mr. Jenner, I appreciate on behalf of myself and Mr. Oswald your statement for the record.
I only have a few brief questions, Mr. Chairman, if I may, sir.
Mr. DULLES. These are to be put to your client?
Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir. Although I will say this at this time--that the Chair has very generously, and Mr. Jenner likewise, granted me the opportunity to question or ask Mr. Oswald questions as we proceeded along.
Robert, there is a contract which has been introduced into the record, and I believe it is Commission Exhibit No. 277, which contract is dated December 9, 1963, and it is signed by Marina N. Oswald and yourself, and approved as to form by John M. Thorne, Attorney, and James H. Martin. In this contract, it provides that Marina Oswald has appointed you as an assistant business manager to Mr. Martin. And in the last paragraph of the contract there is a statement to the effect that she has employed the firm of Thorne and Leach, attorneys-at-law, and further agreed that their services will be available at all times to yourself and that you will use same as required by you.
Now, my question to you is this: Have you ever at any time employed Mr. John M. Thorne to represent you?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not.
Mr. McKENZIE. Has Mr. Thorne ever represented you in any capacity?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he has not.
Mr. McKENZIE. All right, sir.
Mr. DULLES. May I just ask one question? Mr. McKenzie now is your appointed lawyer?
Mr. OSWALD. He is my selected lawyer.
Mr. McKENZIE. Did Lee Harvey Oswald ever tell you or advise you, or has Marina N. Oswald told you of any trips that Lee took, or cities that he visited in Russia, other than Moscow, Minsk, or the hunting trip he took while he was in Russia reported in your diary? Or reported not in your diary, but reported in the letters to you?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he did not.
Mr. McKENZIE. Do you know of any cities or any places that he might have gone in Russia, other than the two cities that I have named, and the hunting
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trip that he took as reported in the letter to you, which has been introduced into evidence?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I am not aware of any other cities.
Mr. McKENZIE. Did Marina N. Oswald have either June Oswald, her two-year-old child, or Rachel, her infant child, baptized, to your knowledge?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; she has.
Mr. McKENZIE. And where was that, sir?
Mr. OSWALD. It is my understanding that this took place in Dallas, Tex., some time in the year of 1963, sir.
Mr. DULLES. You are speaking now of June?
Mr. OSWALD. I am speaking now of June.
Mr. McKENZIE. Has the baby Rachel been baptized as of this time?
Mr. OSWALD. Not to my knowledge, sir.
Mr. MCKENZIE. Do you know what faith June was baptized in? By faith I refer to what particular church or denomination.
Mr. OSWALD. I believe, sir, this was the Greek Orthodox Church.
Mr. MCKENZIE. From your acquaintance with Marina Oswald, and based on your discussions with her, both in your home and elsewhere, including cemetery visits which you have made with her, do you now consider and believe that Marina N. Oswald is a Christian and believes in the teachings of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ?
Mr. OSWALD. I do, sir.
Mr. McKENZIE. Has she professed such faith to you?
Mr. OSWALD. Not directly, sir--only by implication, sir.
Mr. McKENZIE. Do you believe or have you formed an opinion now, based on your discussions and observations of Marina Oswald, as to whether or not Marina N. Oswald is a Communist or a Soviet agent, either now or at any time since you met her at Dallas, Love Field, in June of 1962?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not believe that she is any of those things.
Mr. McKENZIE. Now, do you think she is a Communist?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not.
Mr. MCKENZIE. Do you have any opinion as to whether or not she is at this time or since she arrived in this country?
Mr. OSWALD. I am of the opinion that she is not, based on my observations of her reactions and her conversations with me.
Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Oswald, have I or has anyone at any time coached or briefed you--and if you don't understand what I mean by the word "coached" please tell me so--as to what you should testify here before this Commission, other than my cautioning you not to speculate or use conjecture?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; you have not.
Mr. MCKENZIE. Has anyone?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; they have not.
Mr. McKENZIE. Have you told the Commission----
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me--that anyone includes any member of the staff of this Commission?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. MCKENZIE. And likewise it includes, does it not, any member of the FBI, or the Secret Service or any other Federal agency?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. McKENZIE. And the same would apply to any State agency of Texas?
Mr. OSWALD. Sir, that would apply to anybody, no matter what his position with any government agency or individual.
Mr. McKENZIE. Now, have you told the Commission during the hearings here, since you have been testifying, only the facts as you knew them, or the facts as you know them now?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. McKENZIE. And have you expressed opinions or speculated only when the Commission or Mr. Jenner or myself have asked you to do so?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I have.
Mr. McKENZIE. Have you testified, Mr. Oswald, truthfully to the best of your recollection in each instance?
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Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I have.
Mr. McKENZIE. And in the event you have inadvertently made any mistake on dates, addresses, or facts, do you now ask the Chairman's permission to change your answer and correct any mistakes which you might have made in the event a mistake is at any time hereafter called to your attention?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do so.
Mr. DULLES. Well, could I supplement that? In the event that you, yourself, find any mistakes--I think you said if it was called to his attention----
Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I certainly will.
Mr. DULLES. May I just add here I hope that that will be looked over, the record will be looked over fairly promptly, so that we can make any corrections within a reasonable length of time.
Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir; as soon as we receive it, Mr. Chairman, we will do so.
Mr. JENNER. May I say in that connection, Mr. McKenzie, if you could have him dictate that tape covering his memorandum, we can perhaps actually incorporate that in the record, which you will receive.
Mr. McKENZIE. We cannot do it today, because we won't get to Dallas until late this evening. And I am going to church tomorrow and teach Sunday school and be with my children.
Mr. OSWALD. And I with mine, sir.
Mr. McKENZIE. I will make arrangements the first of the week to have it done.
Mr. JENNER. Send it to Mr. Rankin.
Mr. McKENZIE. I shall.
If you receive from any source any further documentary information or any type of information which might be considered as evidence by this Commission, do you now ask the Commission's approval and permission to deliver such documents or information, if any, to the FBI, so that the information may be immediately forwarded to the Commission to assist in preparing its final report?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do.
Mr. DULLES. Is that satisfactory to you, Mr. Jenner?
Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir.
Mr. McKENZIE. Likewise, do you authorize me to deliver any like information or documents which I may receive, discover or otherwise have in my possession to the same agencies for the same purpose?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I most certainly do.
Mr. JENNER. Here, again, Mr. McKenzie, if anything is delivered, would you have it delivered to Mr. Rankin, rather than to me?
Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir.
Have you ever applied for relief, unemployment compensation, or any other form of welfare aid?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not.
Mr. McKENZIE. And I refer there, sir, to both the Federal Government aid programs and likewise any aid program of the State of Texas or the State of Louisiana.
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct--or any other State of the United States.
Mr. McKENZIE. I believe that you have previously testified to this, but I want to make it absolutely clear. Do you now believe that Lee Harvey Oswald was at any time an agent of any agency of the United States Government, from the time that he departed for Russia, until the day of his death on November 24, 1963?
Mr. OSWALD. I do not believe that he was an agent of any government.
Mr. McKENZIE. Prior to November 22, 1963, did you know of any activities of Lee Harvey Oswald relative to the Fair Play for Cuba Committee or his arrest in New Orleans, La?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not.
Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Oswald, what has been your position insofar as the press is concerned, since the unfortunate and tragic happenings of November 22, 1963?
Mr. OSWALD. My position with any news media, whether it be the newspapers, magazines, television, et cetera, has been that--no comment, and the only comment I ever made to any of them, at a very early date, was that I would abide
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by the decision of the Commission which is now known as the Warren Committee.
Mr. McKENZIE. Have you ever sought to elaborate or give any statement to the press at any time?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not.
Mr. McKENZIE. Do you recall any statements made by Marina N. Oswald expressing sympathy for President's family?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do.
Mr. McKENZIE. And if you will, state the source of your recollection and where the statement was made, and if she has ever made any statement to that effect to yourself.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; she did make a statement directly to myself. To the best of my recollection, this was first done on Monday, November 25, 1963, at the Inn of the Six Flags, at Arlington, Tex., as Marina and myself observed the beginning of the funeral for the President of the United States.
Mr. McKENZIE. And was there anyone else present at that time?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; there were other people in the room. Whether or not they overheard our conversation, I do not know, sir.
Mr. DULLES. You observed that on television, I gather?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. McKENZIE. Were there any Secret Service agents there at that time?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. McKENZIE. Were they in the room with you and Marina Oswald?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; they were.
Mr. McKENZIE. And did they overhear any expressions of sympathy which she might have said?
Mr. OSWALD. It is possible that they did, sir.
Mr. McKENZIE. Have you ever testified in a lawsuit or given a deposition before a Court reporter prior to your appearance before this Commission?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not.
Mr. McKENZIE. Now, you have testified that you have not given any statements to the press other than the statement to the effect that you would abide with and be satisfied with the report of this Commission.
Since arriving in Washington, and since you have been sworn under oath before the Commission, have you given any statement to the press, other than saying goodnight, or good afternoon, or good morning?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe at one time I did say thank you. Other than that, sir, I have not.
Mr. McKENZIE. Now, have you read an article here in the New York Times of Saturday, February 22, 1964, on page 22 of the first section, entitled, "Russian training of Oswald hinted"?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have.
Mr. MCKENZIE. Do you know Mr. Anthony Lewis?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not.
Mr. McKENZIE. All right, sir. Have you ever talked with Mr. Lewis?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; not to my knowledge.
Mr. MCKENZIE. Now, you have testified this afternoon following our lunch break that you visited Lee Oswald in the Dallas County Jail. Do you recall that testimony--the testimony of just a few minutes ago?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do.
Mr. McKENZIE. Have you previously testified to that before the Commission, to your recollection?
Mr. OSWALD. To my recollection, I believe we at least touched on that during our first session on February 20, 1963.
Mr. McKENZIE. When you were in the jail--and I believe it is in the sixth floor of the Dallas County Jail--I mean the Dallas City Jail--talking with your brother, Lee Harvey Oswald, did you ask him at that time if he had committed the crime?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I had.
Mr. McKENZIE. You did ask him that question?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.
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Mr. McKENZIE. And what did he say?
Mr. OSWALD. I put it to him as stated in my diary, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Identify the page, please.
Mr. OSWALD. On page 12, "I do not recall everything he said. I did try to point out to him that the evidence was overwhelming that he did kill Police Officer Tippit and possibly the President. To this he replied do not form any opinion on the so- called evidence.'"
Mr. JENNER. Is that all he said? He said nothing else?
Mr. OSWALD. To that----
Mr. JENNER. In response to you?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. At no time when you interviewed him over the telephone while you were in that--the sixth floor--did he affirmatively deny either that he had shot Officer Tippit or that he shot the President?
Mr. OSWALD. He did not admit to anything whatsoever.
Mr. JENNER. Nor did he deny it affirmatively--other than the remark that you have recorded in your memorandum?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. McKENZIE. In other words, Mr. Oswald, when you were talking there with your brother, in the city jail of Dallas, he did not deny that he had killed Officer Tippit, nor did he deny that he had assassinated President Kennedy?
Mr. OSWALD. He did not admit to anything, sir.
Mr. McKENZIE. And he didn't deny anything?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. McKENZIE. Have you, or haven't you told this Commission that you believed a denial?
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, Mr. McKenzie, I don't understand that question.
Mr. McKENZIE. It says in this article that he told the Commission that he believed the denial.
Since there was no denial, there was nothing for you to believe.
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Up to this moment he has never testified as to that, to my recollection.
Mr. McKENZIE. That is correct.
Again, based on the evidence that you have read or heard in newspaper articles, whether it be evidence or not, but based on everything that you have heard or read, you now believe that your brother, Lee Harvey Oswald, did kill Mr. Tippit and assassinated President Kennedy, is that correct?
Mr. OSWALD. Purely on the circumstantial evidence that has been brought to my attention or that I have read.
Mr. McKENZIE. I believe that is all, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. JENNER. May I ask one question?
Mr. Oswald, until this afternoon, when you recalled orally here the circumstances and the event of your discussion with your brother on the sixth floor of the Dallas--is that Dallas County?
Mr. McKENZIE. No; it is Dallas City Jail.
Mr. JENNER. Dallas City Jail--had I had any conversation with you at all on that subject?
Mr. OSWALD. None that I recall, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Thank you.
Mr. McKENZIE. That is all, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. DULLES. That will then conclude the testimony of Mr. Robert Oswald, with the understanding that the Commission might later wish to recall him if any facts are adduced that would make that desirable.
Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Dulles--is he now released from his oath to the Commission, subject to recall and being resworn?
Mr. DULLES. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. That is correct. That is my understanding. In any event, I so agree, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. McKENZIE. Thank you, sir.
I would like to state to the Commission one further thing, Mr. Dulles, if I may. We very much appreciate, and by "we" I mean myself as counsel, and Mr.
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Oswald as a witness, the manner in which the Commission and its counsel have conducted the interrogation of Mr. Oswald. We further appreciate the opportunity to be in Washington and to be heard, and hope that in some manner that we may assist in shedding some light that will assist this Commission in making its final report, and that the true facts of this situation will be known to the President of the United States to use at his discretion.
Mr. DULLES. Thank you very much, Mr. McKenzie.
Mr. JENNER. May I ask one more question?
Up until this afternoon when I questioned you, possibly there might have been a question this morning on the subject of any opinion which you might have held dealing with whether your brother did or did not participate in the shooting of Officer Tippit or the assassination of President Kennedy, had I had any conversation with you on that subject?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I believe you had.
Mr. JENNER. When was that?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe this was on the first session, during the first session on Wednesday, February 20, 1964.
Mr. JENNER. Was it in this room?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it was.
Mr. JENNER. That is all I meant. I had no separate--no conversation with you on the subject other than as I might have put a question to you in the presence of the Commission.
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Thank you.
Mr. DULLES. And a part of the record.
Mr. JENNER. And as part of the record; yes, sir.
Mr. DULLES. We will adjourn.
(Whereupon, at 3:40 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)
James Herbert Martin