Ruth Paine Affidavit;
AFFIDAVIT OF RUTH HYDE PAINE
The following affidavit was executed by Ruth Hyde Paine on June 24, 1964.
PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION
ON THE ASSASSINATION OF AFFIDAVIT
PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY
STATE OF TEXAS,
County of Dallas, ss:
Ruth Hyde Paine, being affirmed, says:
1. I reside at 2515 West 5th Street, Irving, Texas. I am the Ruth Hyde Paine who testified before the Commission on March 18, 19 and 20, 1964, and gave testimony by deposition in Washington, D.C. at the offices of the Commission on Saturday, March 21, 1964, and gave further testimony by deposition in my home the evening of Monday, March 23, 1964.
2. On the occasion of Saturday, November 9, 1963, about which I testified before the Commission, when I took Marina and Lee Oswald in my station wagon to the Texas Automobile Drivers Bureau Station in the Oak Cliff section of Dallas, Texas, to enable Lee Oswald to make application for an automobile driver's learner's permit, each of my two children and both of the Oswald children, June and Rachel, accompanied us.
3. Upon our arrival at the Automobile Drivers License Bureau, which was
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located in a shopping center area in Oak Cliff, we discovered that the Automobile Drivers License Bureau was closed. All of us went down the street to a ten cent store which was located approximately three doors down the street from the Automobile Drivers License Bureau Station. We entered the store. I purchased some child panties for my children and Marina selected and Lee paid for an infant's pacifier.
4. After we made the purchases, all of us returned to my station wagon, entered it and I drove directly to my home in Irving, Texas. Upon arrival there, all of us entered my home where we remained throughout the balance of that day and evening. Marina and Lee Oswald and their children were present in my home throughout the two following days and evenings, November 10 and 11, 1963. Lee Oswald returned to his work at the Texas School Book Depository Tuesday morning, November 12, 1963. I was present in my home throughout November 10 and 11, 1963, except as described in paragraph 13.
5. During the course of my testimony by deposition in Washington, D.C. on Saturday, March 21, 1964, Mr. Jenner examined me with respect to the various entries in my calendar diary, Commission Exhibit No. 401, for the period commencing and following September 24, 1963, including, in particular, those entries respecting baby and child clinic appointments for June Oswald and Rachel Oswald, in clinics in Irving, Texas, and in Dallas, Texas, as well as other appointments for June Oswald. On all occasions following Marina's return to my home from Parkland Hospital on October 22, 1963, following the birth of her daughter Rachel on October 20, 1963, when baby clinic, dental and other medical and physical attention appointments for either of Marina's children were made, and about which I have heretofore testified, I drove to the clinic or doctor's office in my station wagon accompanied by each of my children and by Marina and both of her children. This was so irrespective of which of Marina's children was to receive medical or other attention.
6. There were a number of occasions subsequent to September 24, 1963, on which Marina and both of her children accompanied me when I drove in my station wagon to shops, grocery stores, etc., in and about Irving, Texas, to do limited shopping or purchase food stuffs. On each of these occasions, we were also accompanied by my children. Understandably, Marina desired "to get out of the house" and visit with me around Irving, Texas, when convenient to me. I understood this and often went out of my way to invite her to come with me. She always brought her daughter June and after the birth of her daughter Rachel, also brought her.
7. On none of the above occasions did we shop in or visit or enter any furniture store. This includes the Furniture Mart, a store that was located at 149 East Irving Boulevard, Irving, Texas, which I now understand was owned and operated during its existence by one Edith Whitworth.
8. There were only two occasions during all the period in the Fall of 1963 that I took Marina and Lee together in my station wagon to Dallas, Texas, or anywhere in Irving, Texas. One occasion was a trip to Dallas, Texas, the morning of November 9, 1963, which I have mentioned above. (The other is described in paragraph 14.) I do not know Mrs. Whitworth. I never visited her place of business, nor did I ever drive Lee Oswald or Marina to that place of business; and, to the best of my knowledge and recollection, Marina was never at or in that place of business with or without Lee Oswald during the period she resided in my home in the Fall of 1963.
9. At no time after Marina and I and our children arrived in Irving, Texas, on September 24, 1963, from New Orleans, Louisiana, did I ever take Lee Oswald or Marina Oswald to the Irving Sports Shop, which is located at 221 East Irving Boulevard, Irving, Texas. I was quite aware during all of this period of Marina's activities and where she was. I know of no occasion when either she or Lee Oswald visited either the Furniture Mart or the Irving Sports Shop.
10. There was no occasion during the period Marina resided with me in the Fall of 1963, of which I was aware or now recollect, that Marina rode either in my station wagon or any other automobile or means of conveyance with Oswald at the wheel. Neither the Irving Sports Shop nor Mrs. Whitworth nor Dyal Ryder was ever mentioned in my presence by either of the Oswalds.
11. I never drove Lee Oswald, with or without Marina, to any area or place
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in or about either Dallas, Fort Worth, or Irving, Texas, to enable Lee Oswald to engage in rifle practice. I did not know until the afternoon of November 22, 1963, that he possessed or owned a firearm of any kind or character. At no time prior to November 25, 1963, did I know or had I heard of anybody by the name of Dyal Ryder.
12. Lee Oswald was not in my home and to the best of my knowledge was not in Irving, Texas, at any time on November 6 or 7, 1963. My recollection is clear that on each of those days, as well as November 8, 1963, Marina and her two children, June and Rachel, were present in my home day and night. Lee Oswald arrived at my home from Dallas, Texas, between 5:30 p.m. and 6:00 p.m. on November 8, 1963, for his customary week-end visit, which as to this particular week-end was to extend over through Armistice Day, November 11, 1963. Except for the trip to Dallas, Texas, on November 9, 1963, which I have described above, Lee Oswald remained in my home from the time of his arrival, the late afternoon of November 8, 1963, until he departed for Dallas, Texas, in the early morning of November 12, 1963.
13. I was not present in my home for part of the day on November 11, 1963. As I testified, I made a trip that day, which was Armstice Day and a holiday, to Dallas, Texas. I was gone from approximately 9:00 A.M. to 2:00 P.M. Not wishing to burden Lee and Marina with my children, I had them stay at my neighbors the Craigs. Marina and Lee Oswald and their children were in my home when I left and were there when I returned. Based upon my conversation with Marina and Lee Oswald, and my understanding of their plans for the day, it is my clear opinion that all of them remained in my home during my trip to and from Dallas.
14. There was one occasion in addition to the occasion of Nov. 9, 1963, which I have described above, that I drove Marina and Lee in my station wagon to Dallas, Texas. On Monday, October 14, which was the day before Lee Oswald obtained a position at the Texas School Book Depository, I drove him to Dallas, Texas. We were accompanied by Marina and her child June as well as by my children. I testified about this event. We left Lee Oswald off in Dallas at Ross Avenue near LaMarr. I then took my typewriter to a shop in Dallas for repair and Marina and I and our children returned to Irving, Texas.
Signed this 24th day of June 1964.
(S) Ruth Hyde Paine,
RUTH HYDE PAINE.
TESTIMONY Volume II
Afternoon Session
TESTIMONY OF RUTH HYDE PAINE
The President's Commission reconvened at 2:20 p.m.
Mr. McCLOY. Before I ask you to be sworn, Mrs. Paine. I will give you a little general indication of what our testimony is apt to cover.
We have heard that you and your husband made the acquaintance of the Oswalds somewhere during 1963, and that Mrs. Marina Oswald lived in your home from late September 1963, I believe, to the time of the assassination.
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Since we are inquiring under our mandate into the background and the possible motives of the assassination by Lee Harvey Oswald, the alleged assassin, we will question you regarding your association with Mr. Oswald and try to glean from you any other facts that may bear upon the assassination or its motivation.
I believe you have been furnished with a copy of the executive order under which we are operating as well as the Congressional resolution?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. McCLOY. Now if you will please stand, I will swear you in.
Mrs. PAINE. I would like to affirm.
Mr. McCLOY. Do you solemnly affirm that the evidence you will give in this investigation will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I do.
Mr. McCLOY. Will you state your full name for the record and your address?
Mrs. PAINE. I am Ruth Hyde Paine. I live at 2515 West Fifth Street, in Irving, Tex.
Mr. McCLOY. Mr. Jenner is going to conduct the examination.
Mr. JENNER. Your maiden name?
Mrs. PAINE. Is Hyde.
Mr. JENNER. Ruth Avery Hyde.
Mrs. PAINE. Right.
Mr. JENNER. You are wife of Michael Ralph Paine?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you were born September 3, 1932?
Mrs. PAINE Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You are almost 34 years old.
Mrs. PAINE. Almost 32. I will be 32 in September.
Mr. JENNER. Pretty bad arithmetic. Just a little bit of your background, Mrs. Paine, very little. Your mother and father are living?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. And your mother is an Unitarian Minister ordained in the Unitarian Church at the moment?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; she is.
Mr. JENNER. And received her degree in theology last summer I believe, is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE. No, she has completed her work for a Bachelor of Divinity Degree from Oberlin College and she will receive it in the spring. They don't give them in mid-year. She completed just the first of February.
Mr. JENNER. You yourself are a college graduate?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Antioch College?
Mrs. PAINE. Yellow Springs.
Mr. JENNER. Yellow Springs, Ohio?
Mrs. PAINE. Right.
Mr. JENNER. You have a brother and sister.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And your mother, your father, yourself, your brother, and your sister are your entire family.
Mrs. PAINE. My immediate family.
Mr. JENNER Your brother is a graduate of Antioch also, he and your sister. Are they older than you?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, they are.
Mr. JENNER. Which is the elder of the two?
Mrs. PAINE. My brother is the oldest.
Mr. JENNER. And your brother is a professional man, is he?
Mrs. PAINE. He is a doctor, general practitioner.
Mr. JENNER. A general physician, and he practices in Yellow Springs, Ohio?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Would you tell us where Yellow Springs is?
Mrs. PAINE. It is about 60 miles south and west from Columbus, Ohio, the
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capital, which is more or less in the middle of the State, and just a little bit east of Dayton.
Mr. JENNER. Is your brother married.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, he is.
Mr. JENNER. Does he have a family?
Mrs. PAINE. He has four children.
Mr. JENNER. And is your sister married?
Mrs. PAINE Yes; she is.
Mr. JENNER. Does she have a family?
Mrs. PAINE. She has four children.
Mr. JENNER. And each of your brothers and your sister, it is their first marriage?
Mrs. PAINE. That is fight.
Mr. JENNER. Now you were married to Mr. Paine December 28, 1957, is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I believe so.
Mr. JENNER. And you were married where, in Philadelphia?
Mrs. PAINE. It was suburban Philadelphia. Friends meeting in Media, Pa.
Mr. JENNER. Would you tell us what the Friends meeting is which you have mentioned?
Mrs. PAINE I am a member of the Society of Friends often known as Quakers.
Mr. JENNER. You are a Quaker?
Mrs. PAINE. I am.
Mr. JENNER. When did you embrace that faith?
Mrs. PAINE. I joined in early 1951, I believe.
Mr. JENNER. Has any other member of your family embraced the Quaker faith?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes My Brother is also a Quaker.
Mr. JENNER. When did he embrace that faith.
Mrs. PAINE. Similar in time, a year or two one way or the other. I don't recall exactly.
Mr. JENNER. I am afraid I might have been inattentive. When did you say that occurred.
Mrs. PAINE. Similar in time. I don't remember just when exactly he joined.
Mr. JENNER. I was thinking more as to when you said you did.
Mrs. PAINE. In early '51, I think; I am quite certain it was winter of '51.
Mr. JENNER. You were then in college?
Mrs. PAINE. That was the year out. I went to Antioch one year and then I took a year out and I joined my home meeting in Columbus which I had already attended perhaps 2 years.
Mr. JENNER. And from the time you joined the Quaker church you have been a member of that church?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Or that faith?
Mrs. PAINE. Or church; yes.
Mr. JENNER. Ever since?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now you and Mr. Paine, did you take up a residence in Philadelphia as soon as you married?
Mrs. PAINE. I had been living in Philadelphia working there, and then when we married. I moved to suburban Philadelphia where Michael was living, Paoli, Pa.
Mr. JENNER. His folks live in Paoli, also, do they not?
Mrs. PAINE. His mother and stepfather.
Mr. JENNER. And you remained in Paoli until when?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, it was summer of '59 we were in the process of moving, didn't complete it until fall of '59.
Mr. JENNER. I see. You moved to where?
Mrs. PAINE. To Irving, where we are now, to the present address.
Mr. JENNER. To your present home? And that was in the summer of 1959?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
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Mr. JENNER. At some later stage we will go into what occurred. In the. meantime we have you now in Irving, Tex. Is that a suburb of Dallas?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You and your husband purchased the home you have there before you went down.
Mrs. PAINE. Oh, no; we stayed at a small apartment for several weeks looking around and then rented for a year, and then we purchased the house we have been renting.
Mr. JENNER. So you purchased that and moved in in 1960, is that about right?
Mrs. PAINE. We first moved into it in the fall of '59.
Mr. JENNER. You rented it and then purchased it.
Mrs. PAINE. The same house; yes.
Mr. JENNER. All right, thank you. You have two children?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. A boy and a girl?
Mrs. PAINE. A girl and a boy.
Mr. JENNER. Would you name the oldest of the two.
Mrs. PAINE. Sylvia Lynn and the boy--she is now 4. The boy is Christopher and he is 3.
Mr. JENNER. The point I was getting at, your daughter, Sylvia, was born after you reached Texas?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And what was her birth?
Mrs. PAINE. She was born on November 17, '59.
Mr. JENNER. 1959. Now you are acquainted, became acquainted with Marina Oswald, did you not, in due course in Irving, Tex.?
Mrs. PAINE. No. I first met her and her husband at a gathering of people in Dallas at the home of Everett Glover.
Mr. JENNER. I will get to that in a moment.
Mrs. PAINE. Okay. I had not met her before that.
Mr. JENNER. At this time you and your husband were living in your present home in Irving, Tex.?
Mrs. PAINE. In '59.
Mr. JENNER. At the time that you met Marina Oswald?
Mrs. PAINE. No. Michael moved to an apartment in September of 1962.
Mr. JENNER. There had been some strained relations or difficulties between yourself and your husband Michael. When we shake our heads we don't get it on the record.
The answer to that is "Yes"?
Mrs. PAINE. Is "No." I had not met her when there had been some strained relations between me and my husband. It is just we are having difficulties with words.
Mr. JENNER. What I was getting at--there had been some strained relations, is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And Mr. Paine had moved to separate quarters. This was in September of 1962, correct.
Mrs. PAINE. Right.
Mr. JENNER. You met Marina for the first time when.
Mrs. PAINE. I judge it was the last of February, towards the end of February of 1963.
Mr. JENNER. You were then living with your children in your home at 2515.
Mrs. PAINE. West Fifth.
Mr. JENNER. West Fifth Street in Irving, Tex. Now would you please relate the circumstances under which the meeting between yourself and Marina Oswald first occurred in February of 1963.
Mrs. PAINE. I was invited to come to the home of Everett Glover to meet a few friends of his, and I Judge that was on the 22d of February looking back at my calendar.
Mr. JENNER. Would you please tell us who Mr. Everett Clover was and how you became acquainted with him.
What was the milieu?
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Mrs. PAINE I met Mr. Glover at a group gathered to sing madrigals together. These are old English songs where each part has a melody and it was for the enjoyment of reading the music and in harmony, and we often had coffee after ward and would talk.
Mr. JENNER. This included your husband, however, did it not?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes indeed.
Mr. JENNER. You had a common interest in this?
Mrs. PAINE. Madrigal singing?
Mr. JENNER. Madrigal singing?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. And went together.
Mr. JENNER. Proceed.
Mrs. PAINE. And then Everett knew that I was interested in learning Russian well enough to teach it, and since this gathering was to include some people who spoke Russian, he invited me and he invited Michael also to attend. Michael caught a bad cold and wasn't able to go. I went.
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, could 1 interrupt you a moment here. Though your husband was living in his own quarters, the relations between you, however, were not so disruptive but what you were friendly, and you were attending these singing groups?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right. I saw him perhaps once or twice a week for dinner at my house, and we went out to rather more movies than some of my married friends.
Mr. JENNER. There was reasonable cordiality?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Yes. I don't wish to pry into your private life.
Mrs. PAINE. If it is pertinent, go ahead.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, there is some necessity. We might touch a little on your private life if you will forgive me for doing it. Mr. Glover, is he a single person?
Mrs. PAINE. He was at the time of the party. He has been divorced from his wife. He is now remarried.
Mr. JENNER. Now I interrupted you at the point at which you were relating that Mr. Glover had raised with you, I assume this was a telephone call, that he was going to have some guests. He knew of your interest in the study and the learning of the Russian language and its use?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Do I correctly summarize it up to the moment?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You have an entry in your calendar as I recall on this subject. There is a question mark.
Mrs. PAINE. I recall it says "Everett?"
Mr. JENNER. May I hand the witness the document?
Mr. McCLOY. You may.
Mr. JENNER. This will be the Commission Exhibit No. 401. Gentlemen for the purpose of identification of the exhibit, it is Mrs. Paine's calendar which she used in part as a diary and part to record prospective appointments and she surrendered it to the FBI. This is not merely a photostat, it is a picture taken with a camera of that calendar.
(Commission Exhibit No. 401 was marked for identification.)
Mr. JENNER. May I ask you a question or two about it Mrs. Paine. Did you not go through each of the pages of that calendar with me this morning?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, I did.
Mr. JENNER. And I asked you, did I not, whether it was all in your handwriting?
Mrs. PAINE. You did.
Mr. JENNER. Except for the identification on the front, the officer who received it from you--he made a notation of the date of receipt--it is all in your handwriting?
Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And is in the same condition now, isn't it, as it was when you surrendered it?
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Mrs. PAINE. It is.
Mr. JENNER. Would you turn to the diary page to which I have reference in connection with the first meeting with Marina Oswald, and that is what month and what page and what date?
Mrs. PAINE. It is on the page for February, and the only thing I can--
Mr. JENNER. February what year?
Mrs. PAINE. February 1963.
Mr. JENNER. And the day please?
Mrs. PAINE. There is a notation on the 22d of February.
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, there is a square with the figure 22 in it indicating February 22, 1963. Do you have something written in there?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. What is written in there?
Mrs. PAINE. It says "Everett's?"
Mr. JENNER. Is that all there is in that square?
Mrs. PAINE. That is all.
Mr. JENNER. Would you explain that and how it related to what you are now telling us?
Mrs. PAINE. I believe it refers to the invitation to come to his home. As I recall, he telephoned me twice, first to say that they might get together a group of people, hence the question mark. Then he called again to say they were going to have a party, and to make the invitation definite.
Mr. JENNER. Now you used the expression "I believe." Is that your best recollection at the moment?
Mrs. PAINE. That is my best recollection.
Mr. JENNER. And I went over this with you this morning and you gave me the same explanation, did you not?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now did that event take place?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And what is your best recollection as to the day of the month it took place?
Mrs. PAINE. I have no other way of guessing when it was except to assume that this notation means it was on the 22d of February.
Mr. JENNER. And that does represent your present best recollection refreshed to the extent it is refreshed by the memorandum before you?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right, and of course this first--
Mr. JENNER. What day of the week was that?
Mrs. PAINE. That was a Friday.
Mr. JENNER. Friday night. You attended the party did you not?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, I did.
Mr. McCLOY. I believe you used the word Friday. I don't believe she did, Friday night. You said Friday night.
Mrs. PAINE. It was Friday evening.
Mr. JENNER. Friday evening?
Mrs. PAINE. The 22d was Friday. I don't recall.
Mr. McCLOY. You used the word "evening"?
Mrs. PAINE. It was an evening party.
Mr. JENNER. It was held in Mr. Glover's home was--
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, it was.
Mr. JENNER. Where is his home?
Mrs. PAINE. At that time he was living in the Highland Park section of Dallas.
Mr. JENNER. How far from your home is that?
Mrs. PAINE. Half hour drive.
Mr. JENNER. By what means did you get to Mr. Glover's home?
Mrs. PAINE. I drove.
Mr. JENNER. You owned or then had, or maybe you still have a station wagon?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Is it the same car still?
Mrs. PAINE. It is the same car.
Mr. JENNER. And when you arrived, were either of the Oswalds present?
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Mrs. PAINE. I am not sure I recall accurately. I think they came a little after I arrived.
Mr. JENNER. Would you give us your best recollection of all the people, couples if you can remember them that way, and then single persons or persons there without their wives or husbands, as the case may be, that evening?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, I will try. The Oswalds, two were there, Marina and Lee, Everett Glover, the host, Mr. and Mrs. De Mohrenschildt who were the friendship link between the Oswalds and Glover.
Mr. JENNER. Could I interrupt you there? Had you known the De Mohrenschildts?
Mrs. PAINE. I had never met them. I have not met them since.
Mr. JENNER. That is the only occasion?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. That you ever saw either Mr. or Mrs. De Mohrenschildt?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. You had no conversations, no letters, no contact whatsoever with them either before or after this party?
Mrs. PAINE. That is correct, no contact whatsoever before or after. There was a roommate of Everett's. Dirk, I think, I forget the name.
Mr. JENNER. Are you attempting to recall his first name or his last name?
Mrs. PAINE. His first name. I may be wrong. It was a young German fellow.
Mr. JENNER. Schmidt?
Mrs. PAINE. Do you know the first name?
Mr. JENNER. No, I don't recall the first name.
Mrs. PAINE. And he had two roommates, so that is two other single men, and I don't recall their names.
Mr. JENNER. Was each of them there?
Mrs. PAINE. They were both there.
Mr. JENNER. There were two roommates.
Mrs. PAINE. Two roommates and they were both present at the party. I should remember their names but I don't.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mrs. PAINE. And there was a couple who lived in Irving; again I don't recall the name. I don't believe I have seen any of these people since with the exception of one of the roommates once, and again I don't recall the name.
Mr. JENNER. Did you see the roommate the second--
Mrs. PAINE. I may have seen him since. All these people were new to me when I came to the party with the exception of Everett.
Mr. JENNER. Did you see the roommate the second time before or after November 22, 1963?
Mrs. PAINE. Oh, it was before.
Mr. JENNER. But it is a fact that none of these people who were at the party other than Mr. Clover had you seen or heard of?
Mrs. PAINE. Before.
Mr. JENNER. Up to the time that the party was held.
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Have you exhausted your present recollection as to the people who were present on that occasion.
Mrs. PAINE. I can't get a name. The couple were living in Irving, I recall that, but I don't--I have forgotten their name.
Mr. JENNER. Now the Oswalds arrived shortly after the party began or at least after you arrived?
Mrs. PAINE. I believe they came with the De Mohrenschildts.
Mr. JENNER. And you were introduced, were you?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, I was introduced.
Mr. JENNER. By whom?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall. It was a very informal gathering. Marina was wearing slacks and Mrs. De Mohrenschildt also was. I doubt pains were taken with the introductions.
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me.
Mrs. PAINE. I doubt any pains were taken with the introductions.
Mr. JENNER. How long did the party proceed?
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Mrs. PAINE. It must have started something after 8 o'clock and went until towards midnight.
Mr. JENNER. You have an interest in square dancing and that sort of thing also. Did you do any of that then?
Mrs. PAINE. No. We talked and ate.
Mr. JENNER. Did you do any madrigal singing?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. No singing that evening?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Now before I get to any specificity with respect to Marina and Lee Oswald, was Russian spoken that night by anybody?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you speak Russian?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Who else at the party had some facility with Russian in addition to Lee Oswald and Marina Oswald?
Mrs. PAINE. Just the De Mohrenschildts, both of them, and myself.
Mr. JENNER. And yourself. Did you mention that Mr. Glover had some interest in the Russian language?
Mrs. PAINE. No, I don't believe he does.
Mr. JENNER. He did not, all right. Were the Oswalds really the center of attention that evening?
Mrs. PAINE. I think so, yes, although you can't say that there was a single center for the entire evening. It wasn't like being invited to hear what he had to say. It was much more informal than that.
Mr. JENNER. Did you speak with Marina?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, I did.
Mr. JENNER. Did you converse with her during the course of the evening?
Mrs. PAINE. Very briefly. She spent the first part of the evening trying to get June to go to sleep.
Mr. JENNER. June is her daughter?
Mrs. PAINE. The little girl with her.
Mr. JENNER. She brought her daughter with her did she?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, and then we talked some in the kitchen with Mrs. De Mohrenschildt, Marina and I.
Mr. JENNER. And what subject did you ladies pursue?
Mrs. PAINE. I really can't remember. The actual conversation with Marina didn't cover much time at all. I saw very little of her that evening.
Mr. JENNER. That evening?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Can you remember any subject you talked to her about in the kitchen?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. What subjects were discussed, I assume in the living room where everybody was gathered? Do you recall what was being pursued there in the way of conversation.
Mrs. PAINE. Part of the time Lee talked with people who were asking him about his trip to Russia. I believe Everett had told me that he had been, so I knew that when I arrived. And the fact that he had gone intending to become a citizen in the Soviet Union. He talked freely and with considerable interest in his subject to the three or four people around him.
Mr. JENNER. Were you gathered in that group?
Mrs. PAINE. Part of the time at least I was listening to that. He spoke of the things about the Soviet Union that had displeased him, as for instance the censorship. He knew that it had been going on regarding his letters.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, when you talk in terms of conclusion, we have a little trouble testifying. If you will give us examples such as you just gave us about censorship, could we go back a moment to the conversation about his going to Russia. During the course of that subject, in questions put to him, was anything he listed as to why he went to Russia? May I have a yes or no first? Do you recall anything like that?
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Mrs. PAINE. I can't be certain that this is when I first got an idea about why he wanted to go or whether I learned this later.
Mr. JENNER. Does your memory serve you enough so that there is a fair Possibility that--it is important to us--was the subject discussed at that gathering?
Mrs. PAINE. I think so.
Mr. JENNER. And that is your best recollection?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now would you give us your best recollection of what he said or what Marina said, but primarily what Mr. Oswald said on that subject. Why did he go to Russia?
Mrs. PAINE. I carry the impression, and I think it is recalled from this evening--
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. When you say you carry the impression you are saying "It is my present recollection."
Mrs. PAINE. All right. That he spoke of himself as a Marxist that evening, that he had read certain Marxist books and thought that the Soviet economic system was superior to ours, and wanted to go to the Soviet Union and live there.
Mr. JENNER. What response was elicited from others at the meeting, agreement?
Mrs. PAINE No; I would not say there was any agreement. People were interested. This is an unusual thing to do. And they were interested in hearing how he found Soviet life, what he thought of it, whether he was pleased or disappointed.
Mr. JENNER. Would you be good enough to tell the members of the Commission what Mr. Oswald said in those respects, to the best of your recollection?
Mrs. PAINE. He mentioned that he was displeased with the censorship, or at least he commented on it in a way that I took as unfavorable.
Mr. JENNER. Thank you, Ma'am. Did he say he was--
Mrs. PAINE. What had happened, yes.
Mr. JENNER. What censorship is he talking about?
Mrs. PAINE He referred to a letter that had been sent to him by Robert Oswald that he later learned, after he had come back to the United States, had been sent. He had not received it. He judged that they had simply stopped it, and he commented that they are more apt to just take a letter than take out a piece of it and then send it on, and that censorship is more obvious.
Mr. JENNER. All right, go on.
Mrs. PAINE. I wondered, listening to him, whether he really was.
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, please. Before we get to what you wondered about, exhaust your recollection as to what he said, what others might have said on the subjects in his presence about which he talked.
Mrs. PAINE. That is all I can think of.
Mr. JENNER. You mentioned, also, Mrs. Paine, that there was discussed that evening the subject of his return to America.
Mrs. PAINE. Obviously, yes.
Mr. JENNER. Why he returned, was that subject discussed?
Mrs. PAINE. Not very much, no. I can't recall any specifics relating to that.
Mr. JENNER. All you can recall, I take it, at the moment, is that there was an allusion to the subject?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, he was clearly here, yes. He had come back, and--well, I have to put it in terms of what I guess or what I feel was his reaction. I can't give you a specific recall.
Mr. JENNER. We have no objection to your doing that. We would like to have you first state all you can recall as to what specifically happened in this instance. How did Mr. Oswald treat or regard--what relationship did you gather existed between Marina and her husband, a cordial one as of that occasion, separating from what you learned afterward, but just this initial instance. What impression did you have?
Mrs. PAINE. Almost none. There was very little contact between them during the evening. He spoke English to those that were asking them questions. She was either in the bedroom by herself trying to get the little baby to go to sleep,
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or in the kitchen speaking Russian to the De Mohrenschildts. I listened more than I spoke in that situation.
Mr. JENNER. When Mr. Oswald was in the living room with you ladies and gentlemen, the conversation was in English, was it not?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. I take it, then, that when Marina returned to the room Russian was spoken, at least by those who had command of the Russian language.
Mrs. PAINE. When she was in the same room, there was more than one conversation going on, and in two languages.
Mr. JENNER. When anybody spoke to Marina--
Mrs. PAINE. It was in Russian.
Mr. JENNER. It was in Russian. When people spoke with each other other than with Marina, it was in English, is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE. That is my best recollection.
Mr. JENNER. Now, in very short compass what was your impression of Mr. Oswald at that initial party?
Mrs. PAINE. I thought he was pleased to be interesting to this group of people and glad to tell them about his experience, to answer their questions. He seemed open and forthright. I did wonder as he was talking about it whether he had come to the conclusion after being in the Soviet Union that their system was inferior.
Mr. JENNER. Inferior to ours?
Mrs. PAINE. To ours, or whether he still thought that the Soviet system was a better one. His discussion of the censorship made me feel that he wanted his listeners to know that he was not blind to the defects of the Soviet system, but it did not convince me that he was in favor of the American system. I was left wondering which country he thought conducted itself better.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have an interest in the Oswalds at this moment wholly apart from your interest in the Russian language?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Were you intellectually curious about them is all I meant.
Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes. Well, it is most unusual to take such a step as he took.
Mr. JENNER. Had you had some notice in advance of this meeting, Mrs. Paine, of the fact that Mr. Oswald was at least--there had been publications of his having been a defector?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I wasn't aware of that.
Mr. JENNER. When did you first learn of that?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, a name is always given to someone who goes to the Soviet Union and wants to have citizenship there, isn't it, so I could well have assumed that there had been such, but I really didn't learn about it until after the assassination. I guess. No; I take it back. There was a reference now.
Mr. JENNER. That evening?
Mrs. PAINE. Specific recall. It is coming. The content of Robert's letter to him, as I recall, included a clipping from the Fort Worth newspapers relative to his defection.
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, Mrs. Paine, you are talking about a letter of Robert Oswald's?
Mrs. PAINE. A letter from Robert to Lee which Lee never got but heard about when he came back to the States.
Mr. JENNER. And that was the subject of discussion that evening?
Mrs. PAINE. That came up, so, therefore, I did know that he had been called a defector.
Mr. JENNER. Did Robert refer to this letter or did someone in the meeting refer to the letter?
Mrs. PAINE. Lee referred to the letter in discussion of censorship.
Mr. JENNER. But up until that moment, you had not had any prior impression with respect to whether he had been a defector or an attempted defector?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, I think, yes; I had some impression of that sort, but it came directly from Lee. He said he went to the Soviet Union and tried to give up his American citizenship, and as I recall, he said that the American embassy
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did not relinquish his passport, and, therefore, he was not eligible to get Soviet citizenship.
Mr. JENNER. You are remembering more now.
Mrs. PAINE. I am.
Mr. JENNER. I am pleased that you are, Mrs. Paine. He did discuss his attempts to obtain--
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. To surrender his passport and to accomplish his Soviet citizenship?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And that was openly discussed in this gathering?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. McCLOY. This is Senator Cooper, a member of the Commission, Mrs. Paine.
Mrs. PAINE. How do you do?
Mr. JENNER. This party, I gather, lasted approximately from 7 to 12, did you say?
Mrs. PAINE. Eight to eleven-thirty or twelve.
Mr. JENNER. And the party broke up, and you went home?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. What was your overall impression of Marina Oswald?
Mrs. PAINE. I had very little impression altogether. I did ask for her address.
Mr. JENNER. Why did you do that?
Mr. PAINE. And I asked if I could write her. I wanted to go visit her at her home.
Mr. JENNER. Why?
Mrs. PAINE. To talk Russian. She is very hard to find, a person speaking modern Russian, and in fact I know of no other, and this was an opportunity for me to again practice in the language, a rather unusual opportunity, and I was interested in meeting her and getting to know her.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, I will go back and develop this lady's interest in the Russian language during the course of the examination, and her prior study of the language up to this point, She did have an abiding interest in the language at this particular point, but I wanted to get at the initial meeting first before anything further.
Mr. McCLOY. Very well.
Mr. JENNER. You say modern Russian, that Marina Oswald had a command of modern Russian. Would you please explain to us what you mean by that?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, I am not in a position to judge a person, whether a person is speaking modern Russian or not. My language is not that good, but she talked with--this was later, I only assumed that she had--I hoped that she spoke good Russian I didn't know at that time whether she spoke educated Russian or not. Shall I jump ahead?
Mr. JENNER. Well, I wish you wouldn't. You meant, then, by your expression that you hoped to find that she did speak educated Russian?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; right.
Mr. JENNER. And if she did, that then you might profit or learn from her educated Russian to a greater degree than you knew it as of that time? That was your main interest at the moment?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Aside from interests in another lady or human being under those circumstances?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, until I then got to know her it was my only interest.
Mr. JENNER. Yes. That is the point I was seeking to make. Did you become better acquainted with the Oswalds thereafter?
Mrs. PAINE. I met--
Mr. JENNER. Did you, first, yes or no?
Mrs. PAINE. I became better acquainted with Marina.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, if members of the Commission--I am going to
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pass from this initial event--if you have any questions you would like to put to the witness now rather than my deferring it.
Mr. McCLOY. Are there any questions?
The CHAIRMAN. Not for me.
Representative FORD. Not at this point.
Senator COOPER. No.
Mr. McCLOY. May I ask one? Did Oswald, Lee Oswald on this occasion express any dislike for any elements or aspects of American society?
Mrs. PAINE. I can't recall anything specific that was said.
Mr. McCLOY. He did not indicate to this group why it was that he left the United States to go to Russia-originally?
Mrs. PAINE. It is hard to say how I formed this opinion, but I gathered that he disapproved of the economic system.
Mr. McCLOY. Was there anything more specific than that that he referred to? Did he refer, for example, to any dislike of individuals?
Mrs. PAINE. Individuals? No ; I am certain there was none.
Mr. McCLOY. In government or out of government?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. McCLOY. Your impression was that he was motivated to go to the Soviet Union because he didn't like the capitalist system?
Mrs. PAINE. Right.
Mr. McCLOY. And had an affinity for what might be called the Marxist system, is that right?
Mrs. PAINE. Right.
Mr. McCLOY. That is all the questions that I have.
Mr. JENNER. Along those lines, Mrs. Paine, did he make any remarks with respect to workers in Russia as compared with the position, the economic position of workers in America? Did he refer to workers as a subject?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't remember.
Mr. JENNER. I am trying to refresh your recollection. You said economics, he thought that the economic situation was superior in Russia. I wonder whether he related it to the ordinary worker rather than the overall system.
Mrs. PAINE. I don't remember.
Representative FORD. How well did Marina speak English at the time you made the first acquaintance or first contact?
Mrs. PAINE. I was under the impression she spoke no English at all.
Representative FORD. Did she appear to understand any English at that time?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't believe she understood much of anything.
Mr. JENNER. That was your definite impression?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you hear her speak any English words that evening?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. None whatsoever?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. McCLOY. Senator Cooper?
Senator COOPER. I believe you said a few minutes ago that you were interested in knowing why Lee Oswald left the United States and went to Russia. Did you say that?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, I don't recall saying it. I suppose I was curious.
Mr. McCLOY. I don't recall that she actually said that. She said it was an interesting situation.
Mrs. PAINE. It was unusual, I think I probably said.
Mr. McCLOY. She used the word unusual.
Mrs. PAINE. An unusual thing to do, certainly.
Senator COOPER. I don't want to say that you said something you didn't, but I got the impression that one of the reasons you were interested in meeting this family was in fact that this man had left the United States and gone to Russia.
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Senator COOPER. In some sense?
Mrs. PAINE. Not in any sense whatever.
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Mr. McCLOY. As I recall it she did say that this was an unusual situation, and that to some extent developed your interest. This is Mr. Dulles, a member of the Commission.
Senator COOPER. Maybe I could put it this way. Perhaps we could read back and find out, but I thought that you intimated or indicated that you were interested in the fact that this man had gone to Russia.
Mrs. PAINE. Perhaps I can answer your question--
Senator COOPER. And it provoked your interest.
Mrs. PAINE. I can answer it this way. I was interested at the party to hear something of what he had to say. I was hopeful when I wrote and inquired if I could see Marina where they lived; and knowing that he would be at work, that I would try to go during the week when I would have a chance simply to talk with her.
Senator COOPER. That night he did say that he did not like the capitalist system?
Mrs. PAINE. That is my best recollection.
Senator COOPER. Were you interested, then, in finding out what it was about it he didn't like?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Senator COOPER. In reference to his experience in Russia or for any other reason?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Senator COOPER. You didn't inquire further to have him elaborate on his reasons for not liking the capitalist system?
Mrs. PAINE. No. Of course, it is a rather short space of time we are talking about, perhaps 45 minutes or so or less. People were inquiring of him.
Mr. JENNER. But others did inquire on these subjects?
Mrs. PAINE. For the most part the other people asked questions, yes.
Mr. JENNER. On the subject that Senator Cooper has inquired about, is that true.
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall.
Mr. JENNER. Now perhaps to help your recollection a little bit on that, was this roommate of whom you speak named Volkmar Schmidt?
Mrs. PAINE. Volkmar sounds familiar.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall a couple by the name of Richard Pierce, or a gentleman at least by the name of Richard Pierce who attended that meeting?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; that would be the other roommate, not a couple, he was single, Richard Pierce.
Mr. JENNER. Was there not present a Miss Betty MacDonald?
Mrs. PAINE. Which I had completely forgotten about, yes; there was.
Mr. JENNER. And you still are unable to recall the name of the other couple?
Mrs. PAINE. I am unable to. Betty MacDonald I do recall lives in the same apartment building as this couple, and it is a long German sort of name, I think.
Mr. JENNER. Had you become acquainted with Mr. Clover through your husband?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, you might say so. We both became interested in going to madrigal sings at the same time. My interest in madrigals was developed by Michael, but that was before we ever moved to Texas.
Mr. JENNER. Were you teaching Russian at this time?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. You were not? Had you done any teaching of Russian prior to this occasion?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. You subsequently did some teaching; have you done some teaching of Russian?
Mrs. PAINE. Just this past summer.
Mr. JENNER. Yes. I will get to that in due course. Did you do some translating that evening for Marina?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. You did not?
Mrs. PAINE. I spoke to her very little. I was embarrassed to.
Mr. JENNER. Why was that?
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Mrs. PAINE. Because my Russian was so poor, and the De Mohrensehildts could both do it all so much better.
Mr. JENNER. Was Mr. Oswald's command of Russian very good, also?
Mrs. PAINE. I didn't hear him speak Russian that night at all.
Mr. JENNER. Oh, is that so?
Mrs. PAINE. He may have, but I don't recall.
Mr. JENNER. He did no translating?
Mrs. PAINE. No. For her, no.
Mr. JENNER. For Marina. And on no occasion--he sat there and on none of the occasions did he translate, but, rather, Mr. De Mohrenschildt did the translating?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't even believe that was translating. They would address themselves to her in a separate conversation from what was going on from these three or four around him.
Mr. JENNER. So that those who did not understand Russian got nothing from it?
Mrs. PAINE. Those who did not understand English got nothing from what
he was saying--is that what you mean, or do you mean the other way?
Mr. JENNER. If no one interpreted her in English, translated for her.
Mrs. PAINE. No one understood it; yes.
Mr. JENNER. Then whose who didn't understand Russian--
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Did not understand what she was saying?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. And that went on through the entire evening?
Mrs. PAINE. You must understand she was not present for, I would say, more than half of the evening. She was just with her child.
Mr. JENNER. But while she was present.
Mrs. PAINE. There was no translation done for her benefit.
Mr. JENNER. Or for the benefit of anybody else who did not understand Russian?
Mrs. PAINE. The other way; no. It is a long time ago.
Mr. JENNER. Oh, yes. Was anything the subject that evening of Mrs. Oswald's family background? Was that discussed?
Mrs. PAINE. Of Marina's?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. PAINE. No; nothing.
Mr. JENNER. It was not discussed at anytime during that evening, the fact that she was in Russia, she had been educated as, and was, a pharmacist?
Mrs. PAINE. That might have been said. I don't recall.
Mr. JENNER. What was your reaction to the De Mohrenschildts that evening?
Mrs. PAINE. I had heard from Everett that they were interesting people, that they had gone on a hiking tour through Mexico taking pictures as they went. I learned or had known from Everett, also, in this one telephone conversation, that he was a geologist, a free lancer.
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt seemed somewhat protective toward Marina in the sense of wanting her to understand what was wanting to talk with her, to include her. Mr. De Mohrenschildt talked about his past life some in English.
Mr. JENNER. His speaking of his past life was in English?
Mrs. PAINE. Was in English. I recalled to him his first wife who was also a Quaker. I remember he said that.
Mr. JENNER. When was your next contact with either Marina Oswald or Lee Oswald?
Mrs. PAINE. I wrote a letter, a note to Marina at the address I had been given, and got a note back saying, "We have moved. This is the new address. Come in perhaps a week." From that time. She wanted to get the house cleaned up before I came.
Mr. JENNER. They lived in Dallas, did they not?
Mrs. PAINE. That was in Dallas; yes.
Mr. JENNER. On this February 22 occasion they were then living on Neely Street in Dallas?
Mrs. PAINE. I believe they moved just in that period that I had the previous
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address, and as soon as I wrote, the first letter I got back gave the Neely Street address.
Mr. JENNER. You have recorded that, have you not, in your address book?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Which I will follow up in a moment. Do you have a copy of the letter that you wrote to Marina?
Mrs. PAINE. No. That initial letter asking if I could come over? I don't believe I do.
Mr. JENNER. Not having
Mrs. PAINE. I have her reply.
Mr. JENNER. You do have a reply?
Mrs. PAINE. I have her reply.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have it with you?
Mrs. PAINE. She drew a map. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. May I have it, please?
Mrs. PAINE. Do you want it right now?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. PAINE. All right. Wait--no; perhaps I have it at the hotel. I don't think it is here. I didn't think I would be before the Commission today at all.
Mr. JENNER. We will pass that. You can get it tonight.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I am certain I have it.
Mr. DULLES. That was written in Russian, I assume.
Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes; in my letter to her, bad Russian.
Mr. JENNER. As long as you have the letter I don't want you to attempt to summarize it then, but you did write her a note in which you sought to come see her. She responded advising you of a change of address. There would be some delay, I gather, because she wished to get her home in order, having just moved. And this exchange of letters took place approximately when?
Mrs. PAINE. It was early March some time.
Mr. JENNER. 1963?
Mrs. PAINE. I think her letter is postmarked the 8th of March.
Mr. JENNER. 1963?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. After that exchange of letters, did you see Marina Oswald?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you go to her home or did she come to yours?
Mrs. PAINE. I drove to her home. There would be no way for her to come.
Mr. JENNER. Had you had another exchange of letters before you went to her home?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't believe so.
Mr. JENNER. You just waited a few days, guessed how long it would take her to have her home in order, and you visited her, am I correct in my summary?
Mrs. PAINE. She suggested Tuesday, as I recall in her letter, but what Tuesday I don't know. If it was written the 8th that would be Tuesday the 12th. There is no notation on my calendar.
Mr. JENNER. But you do have her response to your letter?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; that is what I have.
Mr. JENNER. In the hotel. We will get that this evening. Was Mr. Oswald home when you visited her?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. On the next occasion?
Mrs. PAINE. He was not.
Mr. JENNER. Did you make a description in your calendar with respect to this visit?
Mrs. PAINE. I judge not.
Mr. JENNER. Do you find any in your calendar?
Mrs. PAINE. With respect to this visit?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. PAINE. I don't believe so.
Mr. JENNER. By the way, that calendar is all in your handwriting, isn't it?
Mrs. PAINE. It is.
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Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, I offer in evidence as Exhibit No. 401 the document that has been given that exhibit number.
Mr. McCLOY. It may be admitted.
(The document heretofore marked for identification as Commission Exhibit No. 401, was received in evidence.)
Representative FORD. What time of day was this visit, Mrs. Paine?
Mrs. PAINE. It was midmorning, up to lunchtime. She had hoped I could stay through lunch but I wanted to get back so my children could have naps.
Mr. JENNER. Was there anybody at home to care for your children when you made this visit?
Mrs. PAINE. I took them.
Mr. JENNER. Oh, you took them.
Mrs. PAINE. Therefore, I wanted to get them home to take naps.
Mr. JENNER. What is the driving time from your home in Irving--
Mrs. PAINE. Thirty-five to forty minutes.
Mr. JENNER. To the Neely Street address of the Oswalds?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. I take it--or was Mr. Oswald home?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Just Marina? And that visit--tell us about that visit, please.
Mrs. PAINE. I fear my recollection may meld one or two visits that occurred in March.
Mr. JENNER. It might be a good idea, then,--go ahead and tell us about them in a melded form.
Mrs. PAINE. All right. I recall we walked out to a nearby park.
Mr. DULLES. In both cases?
Mrs. PAINE. I am not sure.
Mr. DULLES. You think so?
Mrs. PAINE. Anyway, I recall walking to the park, and I think this was the first visit, and we sat and talked. It was warm weather, March, in Dallas. And the children played on the park equipment, and we talked, and she told me that she was expecting a baby, and asked me not to talk about it among the Russian community.
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. Had anything been said on that subject when you first met Marina Oswald the night of February 22?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Nothing? This was your first notice of that?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And she told you not--would you repeat that, please?
Mrs. PAINE. She told me that she was expecting a child.
Mr. JENNER. She told you not to do what?
Mrs. PAINE. Not to tell members of the Russian-speaking community in Dallas. She preferred for it not to be publicly known, so to speak.
Mr. JENNER. Were you in contact with the Russian-speaking community in Dallas?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Did you say that to her on that occasion?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, it is a contact I could have had. It was reasonable for her to assume I might be.
Mr. JENNER. But you said nothing in response to that. Did you reassure her?
Mrs. PAINE. I just said I wouldn't talk about it, that it was up to her to make such an announcement when she felt like it.
Mr McCLOY. May I ask a question at this point?
You said Lee Oswald was not there. A little earlier in your testimony you said you hoped he would not be there.
Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.
Mr. McCLOY. Why did you say that? Was it because you took any dislike to his being there or was it merely because you wanted exclusive contact with Marina, or both?
Mrs. PAINE. I certainly wanted to make the contact with Marina. She had not appeared as a person at all at the party. I couldn't tell what sort of person
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she was, and I felt meeting alone with her would make an opportunity both to speak the language and to find out what sort of person she was.
Mr. McCLOY. Go on. Did you have any further motivation for that wish? Did you take any dislike to him?
Mrs. PAINE. Not an active dislike, but I didn't like him. I think we can say that.
Mr. JENNER. And you gathered that impression the evening of February 22?
Mrs. PAINE. It is very hard to know whether I gathered it then or in terms told me then after we met, and I will outline them.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; we will get into those.
Mrs. PAINE. I would say it was more formed later.
Mr. JENNER. And in your responding to Mr. McCloy's question you were attempting to transport yourself back to that particular occasion and not be affected by the course of events that had taken place in the meantime, am I correct about that?
Mrs. PAINE. I tried to.
Mr. JENNER. To the best of your ability. Tell us a little more, then, to the extent you have a recollection what occurred and what was said in the park on that occasion.
Mrs. PAINE. Well, I recall that we talked, and, as I said, it may be the first visit or it may have been the first and the second melded in my mind. She said that she was expecting a baby. She said that Lee didn't want her to learn English. He was not encouraging her to learn English or helping her with it, that he spoke only Russian to her and to their baby June. And she told me--now, let me say that my calendar does show a notation on the 20th of March, it says, "Marina" and I judge I went again to see her at her home on that day, or brought her to my house, I am not certain which. But I judge, also, that this was the second visit.
Mr. JENNER. I Suggest that you might have melded these a moment ago. Now I wish you would keep these apart for the moment.
Mrs. PAINE. So far as I can.
Mr. JENNER. And stick with the occasion in the park first and exhaust your recollection.
Mrs. PAINE. Well, I was impressed, talking with her in the park, with what I felt to be her need to have a friend. This was virtually our first meeting, but she confided to me something that she didn't want generally known among the Russian segment.
Mr. JENNER. That was her pregnancy?
Mrs. PAINE. Of Dallas. She inquired of me, a young woman, about birth control methods, and she said that she felt-- ell, clearly this pregnancy had surprised her, but she said that she didn't believe in abortion, and didn't want to consider such a course.
Mr. JENNER. Have you exhausted your recollection?
Mrs. PAINE. That is all I recall; yes.
I do not recall whether it was this time or the next time, it may well have been the next time, that she told me that--
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, please.
Mrs. PAINE. All right, sir.
Mr. JENNER. I would like to stick with this. When Mrs. Oswald, this is your first visit, she related to you and said that her husband did not wish her to acquire any command of the English language, what did you say? Did you express yourself in some fashion as to why? Didn't that seem curious to you?
Mrs. PAINE. I likely said that--
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall.
Mr. JENNER. It is best you don't guess. Give us your best recollection.
Mrs. PAINE. My best recollection is that she did most of the talking because she could. My Russian was bad enough that if she talked I was happy.
Mr. JENNER. Did you feel any embarrassment because you were----
Mrs. PAINE. Oh, a terrible embarrassment.
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Mr. JENNER. You did?
Mrs. PAINE. It is a terrible impediment to talking and to friendship.
Mr. JENNER. I wish you would elaborate on that because I am sure the members of the Commission would like to have your mental reaction to what you thought was your limited command of the Russian language and whether it interfered with communication between you.
Mrs. PAINE. It interfered very markedly.
Mr. JENNER. Would you elaborate?
Mrs. PAINE. I could think of many more things to say than I could think of the words to use in order to say it in Russian. I want to keep jumping ahead to illustrate this. But just it was very difficult for me to communicate. I understand much more readily than I speak, so that I could understand what she was saying to me easily, especially as she took care to see that she used small words and made herself understood.
But it was very difficult for me just to speak. I could not possibly have reacted to her as I would to someone else in English, as I would if she had been speaking English.
Mr. DULLES. At this time you felt that she could not gain very much if you talked to her in English?
Mrs. PAINE. I was certain of that, yes.
Mr. DULLES. But later she had improved, apparently?
Mrs. PAINE. After the assassination, to my knowledge.
Mr. DULLES. That was after the assassination?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. I never knew her to speak English at all.
Mr. DULLES. Or to understand?
I wasn't speaking of just speaking, but about the comprehension of it.
Mrs. PAINE. Well, she said to me in November that she has changed from never listening to an English conversation to giving it some of her attention because she is able to pick up some words. You know how if you don't understand anything there is no point even--
Mr. DULLES. I personally got the impression when she was here that she understood a good deal of English.
Mrs. PAINE. I believe she does, yes.
Mr. DULLES. But this time she did not have that facility at all?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Did you not think it was curious that her husband was adverse to her acquiring some facility with the English language?
Mrs. PAINE. I thought it was distinctly thoughtless on his part. even cruel.
Mr. JENNER. Did you discuss it with her to the extent that you could in your limited command of Russian?
Mrs. PAINE. I think the easiest thing was to agree with what she was saying about it, agree with what she was saying.
Mr. JENNER. Which was what?
Mrs. PAINE. Which is that this wasn't the way it should be and I certainly agreed.
Mr. JENNER. She complained, did she?
Mrs. PAINE. She complained, yes.
Mr. JENNER. I see. Did she express an interest, then, in acquiring some facility?
Mrs. PAINE. Not against his wishes, no. She didn't express an interest. In learning English through me, for instance.
Mr. JENNER. Yes. She showed no interest unlike the interest you had in her helping you with Russian, she showed no interest at that moment in learning from you some command of the English language?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Now you think the second occasion occurring in your calendar entry there was possibly March 20?
Mr. JENNER. And what is the entry?
Mrs. PAINE. It says, "Marina".
Mr. JENNER. And that is the only word?
Mrs. PAINE. That is all it says.
Mr. JENNER. In that square?
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Mrs. PAINE. Probably I went again to her home.
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. Does that refresh your recollection as to anything on that occasion?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. It does not?
Mrs. PAINE. 1 am guessing, again, that this was the second meeting. I think I went to her home twice before I carried her from her place to my home, which was considerably more of an event, since it was 35 or 40 minutes each way, going twice in one day.
Mr. JENNER. You say carry?
Mrs. PAINE. Carry, that is a good Texas term for driving a person in a car.
Senator COOPER. I must say there, that is an old term even in Kentucky. You take some person some place you carry them.
Mrs. PAINE. You carry them; yes.
Mr. JENNER. It is an odd expression to me.
Mrs. PAINE. I have been in Texas longer than I think.
Mr. JENNER. I take it then there were two occasions when you visited her.
Mrs. PAINE. I believe there were two down there, and then I asked her, went to pick her up and brought her to my home and we spent a portion of the day at my home, and I then took her back.
Mr. JENNER. This was at your invitation?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; surely.
Mr. JENNER. Had you by this time--let us take the March 20 affair, occasion--had you some feeling of affinity or liking for Marina?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. As a person?
Mrs. PAINE. I did feel that she was in a difficult position from the first I met her.
Mr. JENNER. Now, chronologically, would you in your own words, so that I don't suggest anything to you, what was the next occasion?
The next time it was under circumstances in which you went to her home in your station wagon, picked her up and brought her to your home?
Mrs. PAINE. It was probably then that she mentioned to me that Lee wanted her to go back to the Soviet Union, was asking her to go back.
Mr. JENNER. He mentioned this subject as early as that, did he not?
Mrs. PAINE. This was still in March.
Mr. JENNER. She did?
Mrs. PAINE. She did, yes; and said that she didn't want to go.
Mr. JENNER. The Commission is interested in that. Would you please relate it?
Mrs. PAINE. She said she did not want to go back, that he asked her to go back, told her, perhaps, to go back.
Mr. JENNER. State just as accurately--
Mrs. PAINE. As she described it I felt--
Mr. JENNER. Just what she said now, please.
Mrs. PAINE. He told her he wanted to send her back with June.
Mr. JENNER. Alone?
Mrs. PAINE. To the Soviet Union. As she described it, I judged that meant--
Mr. JENNER. Please.
Mrs. PAINE. A divorce.
Mr. JENNER. Instead of saying as she described it tell us what she said, if you can.
Mrs. PAINE. She said that she had written to the Soviet Embassy to ask about papers to go back, and received a reply from them saying, "Why do you want to go back?" And she said she just didn't answer that letter because she didn't want to go back, and that that was where the matter stood at that time.
Mr. JENNER. She had not answered the letter?
Mrs. PAINE. The inquiry from the Embassy. She did not answer it.
Mr. DULLES. Did she say whether or not she showed that answer from the Soviet Embassy to her husband?
Mrs. PAINE. No; she didn't say.
Mr. JENNER. Did I understand you to say that Marina said to you that she thought that meant a divorce?
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Mrs. PAINE. I will state again that she felt she was being sent back to stay back, that he would stay here, that this amounted to the end of the marriage for them, but not legally done.
Mr. JENNER. I see. And did she express any opinion of opposition to that?
Mrs. PAINE. She particularly was opposed to going back. It was leaving the United States that she was opposed to.
Mr. JENNER. She wanted to stay here, did she?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; very much so.
Mr. JENNER. I ask you this general question, then, Mrs. Paine: During all of your contact with Marina Oswald, did she ever express any view other than that one of wanting to remain in America?
Mrs. PAINE. No; she did not.
Mr. JENNER. What did she? Was she affirmative about--
Mrs. PAINE. Very.
Mr. JENNER. Of wanting to stay in this country?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, what did you say when she related that her husband wanted her to return to Russia, and she thought to remain in Russia. Did it elicit some curiosity from you?
Mrs. PAINE. Curiosity? It elicited anger at Lee that he would presume to drop his responsibilities so preemptorily.
Mr. JENNER. Did you discuss it with her?
Mrs. PAINE. I wrote a letter to her in an effort to gather my words. I couldn't just discuss it with her. My language was not that good. What I wanted to do was offer her an alternative to being sent back, an economic alternative, and I thought for some time and thought over a week about inviting her to live with me. I was alone with my two children at the time, as an alternative to being sent back. If he thought he couldn't support her or didn't care to or whatever reason he had, I simply wanted to say there was an alternative to her going back, that she could stay and live with me if she wanted to. I wrote such a letter, really, to gather--
Mr. JENNER. Do you have it?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I do. This letter was never sent.
Mr. JENNER. Is that also at the hotel?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't know. It may be here. I can look if you want. This letter was never sent and never mentioned to her. I wrote it so that I would have the words before me to use if it seemed appropriate to me to make the invitation, you see, a way of gathering enough of the language, enough Russian, and to say what I wanted to say. And this letter is dated the 7th of April.
Mr. JENNER. The 7th of April?
Mrs. PAINE. And I know I spent at least a week thinking about it. I talked it over with Michael before I wrote it, and it is plainly marked "never sent" on the letter. I carried it with me, as I recall I carried it once to the apartment so that if--
Mr. JENNER. To what apartment?
Mrs. PAINE. To their apartment on Neely Street, so that if it seemed appropriate I could hand it to her, you see. I could make this invitation at home with time and a dictionary in hand, and then let her read it. It was ever so much easier than just trying to say it.
Mr. McCLOY. Though you never delivered it, did you ever speak from it to her?
Mrs. PAINE. When she was staying with me the last few days of April and the first week of May, I made, yes, a verbal invitation of that sort, and in the April 7 letter, I have just gone over this correspondence or I wouldn't recall what it said, but--
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, Mrs. Paine. I think we can take the time to see if you have the letter in your bag.
Mrs. PAINE. I am sorry that I feel precipitated into a discussion of this correspondence, and I would rather--no, it is not here go at it--there are several things I want to say about it. I began to mention it to Mr. Jenner this morning and thought we would have a whole afternoon to talk more.
Mr. JENNER. We will have time tonight, Mrs. Paine.
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Mrs. PAINE. You will have time tonight?
Mr. JENNER. I thought Mr. Redlich might look at the letter. I didn't want to delay the Commission. You do have it at hand?
Mrs. PAINE. It is not here. It is at the hotel.
Mr. JENNER. I would like to return to something else for the moment, then, first.
What reasons did Marina give, if she gave any, as to why her husband wished to return to Russia? What did she say on that subject?
Mrs. PAINE. She didn't say.
Mr. JENNER. Nothing at all?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. No explanation?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. On that occasion?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. I meant by that last question to imply that there night have been another occasion subsequently in which the subject was discussed again in which she did state what Mr. Oswald's reasons were, if any?
Mrs. PAINE. She never stated any reasons.
Mr. JENNER. Never?
Mrs. PAINE. She implied that it was because he didn't want her.
Mr. JENNER. He didn't what?
Mrs. PAINE. Want her.
Mr. JENNER. What is the date of this letter, April 7?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. McCLOY. We will take a brief recess.
(Brief recess.)
Mr. JENNER. Now, would you turn to your calendar, please. What is the next day, date, in your calendar, in which you have an entry?
Mrs. PAINE. Regarding the Oswalds?
Mr. JENNER. Regarding the Oswalds.
Mrs. PAINE. It is April 2, Tuesday.
Mr. JENNER. What is the entry?
Mrs. PAINE. "Marina and Lee dinner."
Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, I take it that by this time, that is, up to April 2 you had had several visits with Marina and you had reached the point at which you invited them to your home for dinner?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. Now, Michael had never met either. By this time I had talked to him. I had indeed invited them to stay indefinitely.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. PAINE. And so I wanted him to meet them and invited them both to come to dinner.
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, Mrs. Paine, if 1 seem presumptuous.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. But you have stated several times, and now you state you inquired of your husband as to whether you could invite Marina to stay with you. Didn't you think that was a little presumptuous on your part to invite a man's wife to come to live with you?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, toward Lee it was presumptuous.
Mr. JENNER. Beg pardon?
Mrs. PAINE. Presumptuous in relation to Lee.
Mr. JENNER. In relation to Lee?
Mrs. PAINE. Indeed it is. Well, I will have to refer again to the letter of April 7 where I said I didn't want to hurt Lee by such an invitation, but that if they were unhappy, if their marital situation was similar to mine, and this is not specifically in the letter, but if he just did not want to live with her, that I would have offered this as an alternative, really to both of them. I didn't want to get into a position of competition with Lee for his wife. I thought about that, and thought he might be very offended.
Mr. JENNER. It is possible he might very well be.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, it is possible he even might have been violent, but I didn't think anything about that.
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Mr. JENNER. Did you have any impression of him up to this moment on this score?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. As a man of temper?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Violence?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. None of that?
Mrs. PAINE. No. I had met him once.
Mr. JENNER. You invited the Oswalds to dinner on the evening of April 2?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. What day of the week was that?
Mrs. PAINE. Tuesday.
Mr. JENNER. Did anything occur that evening?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, Michael picked them up.
Mr. JENNER. Who did?
Mrs. PAINE. Michael picked them up.
Mr. JENNER. Your husband?
Mrs. PAINE. At the Neely Street address. Has he talked about that? It didn't come up?
Mr. JENNER. I don't know. I haven't the slightest notion. I was talking with you.
Mrs. PAINE. Should I go ahead? I just want to get this first impression into the record somewhere if he hasn't already.
Representative FORD. I think it would be helpful if you gave your impression of his impression.
Mr. JENNER. Of his impression.
Mrs. PAINE. All right. This I have learned since the assassination. he didn't give me this impression as at the time we didn't talk that much.
Mr. JENNER. Please, you are not giving us your impression of his impression on this occasion, but rather your impression of what he said to you after the assassination.
Mrs. PAINE. You still want it?
Representative FORD. I think it is important.
Mr. DULLES. Let us hear it.
Mrs. PAINE. He said--you must understand, that not living together we talked together very little. I am sure he would have given me his impression if we had been having dinner together the next day afterwards, you see- He went over and Marina was not yet ready. He thought that Lee was somewhat thoughtless. While doing absolutely nothing to help her get ready, get the baby's things together, prepare himself, he was quite impatient, thought she should be ready, and gave orders while he himself sat down and talked to Michael, and Michael carried the impression that Lee was somewhat thoughtless.
Mr. DULLES. What did you do? That was about a half hour--what did you do during that period?
Mrs. PAINE. I was at the house preparing the dinner.
Mr. DULLES. You were at home?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. It has to be my impression of his impressions. I don't recall the evening too well, the evening of the second. I do recall we certainly had dinner together. I can't recall what the predominant language was. Lee and Michael, of course, talked in English. Not wanting to exclude her entirely from the conversation, I made opportunity to talk with her in Russian after the meal was over. She and I did the dishes and talked in Russian, and we were in the kitchen while Michael was talking to Lee in English in the living room, so I do not know what was said then between the two of them.
Mr. JENNER. How did your husband get along with Lee Oswald?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, you probably have something on that.
Mr. JENNER. What was your impression? I want your impression of how your husband got along.
Mrs. PAINE. Okay. He was initially very interested in learning what sort of man this was who had taken such a dramatic and unusual step to go to the Soviet Union and attempt to renounce his citizenship. He thought here
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is a person that must have thought things out for himself, a very individualistic person, not a follower of the masses, and he wanted to hear what the ideology was that led Lee to this step.
Michael has told me that he very soon felt that there wasn't much ideology or thought, foundation. That Michael had thought he might be able to learn from this man something and find at least good thinking going on or inquiry, but he Didn't find it. He rather found very rigid adherence to a few Principles such as the principle of the capitalist exploiting the worker, and that this was a great moral failing of the capitalistic society. Michael's own feeling was that Lee's view of morality was very different from Michael's.
Mr. JENNER. In what respect, Mrs. Paine?
Mrs. PAINE. Michael recalls having--now, this is later. This is not that evening. Did you expect it was? This is answering your question of Michael's impression of Lee.
Mr. JENNER. I wanted his initial impression.
Mrs. PAINE. All initial impressions. Well, I have passed that. I have gone considerably past it, in fact.
Mr. JENNER. I see. How many times had you seen Marina up to this moment, that is, up to April 2?
Mrs. PAINE. It was two or three times besides the initial party in February.
Mr. JENNER. And your best recollection is that this was a nice, pleasant evening, and that was about all?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did your husband take the Oswald's home that evening?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. This is the second. When was the next occasion that you had contact with either of the Oswalds?
Mrs. PAINE. There is a notation of the eighth of April. I am looking on my calendar,. I have no other way of knowing, and one also on the tenth which has an arrow going to the eleventh.
Mr. JENNER. I would like to ask you a little bit about that before you go into it. Would you describe for the Commission now the condition, the physical condition, of your calendar there?
Mrs. PAINE. Physical?
Mr. JENNER. Yes. There is a square, and in the square there is written something.
Mrs. PAINE. "Marina" is written this time in Russian. I am improving, it seems.
Mr. JENNER. In Russian. It is in the square dated April 10.
Mrs. PAINE. I am talking now about the square on April 8. There is a notation "Marina".
Mr. JENNER. Is that all there is in that square?
Mrs. PAINE. That is all that is in that square.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. PAINE. Then the only thing that appears in the square for April 10 is the name "Marina" in Russian, and an arrow pointing, an arrow from it pointing, to April 11.
Mr. JENNER. Now, go back, if you will to April 8.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Does that refresh your recollection or stimulate you as to whether you had any contact with Marina on that day or whether it was prearranged and what the occasion was?
Mrs. PAINE. Certainly, it says that there had been an arrangement to get together. Whether we did I don't know.
Mr. JENNER. I thought you had read everything that appeared in that square. Is there more than just the word "Marina" in the square?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. That is my recollection. But that refreshes your recollection in turning that, that was a prearranged meeting?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, all of these were, since there was no way over the telephone.
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Mr. JENNER. Is your recollection sufficiently refreshed to state whether the meeting was a visit by you to her or she to you?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I don't recall.
Mr. JENNER. Does it have a relation to the letter that you say that you prepared dated April 7, which is the day before?
Mrs. PAINE. I might have taken it that day, I don't know. Yes; it is entirely possible. I hadn't thought about it.
Mr. JENNER. But anyhow my mentioning those two events together, does that refresh your recollection or stimulate it more specifically on the subject?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. It does not. You have no recollection beyond the fact that on April 8 you have an entry with the word "Marina." Is that written in Russian?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. The word "Marina" in Russian, it doesn't stimulate you in any respect, does not stimulate your recollection?
Representative FORD. At the time of the dinner at your home on April 2, following that or during that time, do you recollect any discussion about General Walker between your husband and Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I don't recollect any such discussion.
Representative FORD. That night?
Mrs. PAINE. If there was any it would have had to have been in the living room while I was talking to Marina in Russian in the kitchen. I didn't hear any reference to it.
Representative FORD. You didn't hear any discussion that evening between your husband and Lee Oswald about General Walker?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Representative FORD. Did your husband ever tell you subsequently of any such discussion?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall it. There was one reference, but that was later.
Representative FORD. That was later. Do you recall when?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. It would be the Friday after U.N. Day, October the 4th.
Representative FORD. That was October 1963?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Representative FORD. And this was April 2d?
Mrs. PAINE. 1963.
Representative FORD. 1963.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall any discussion of General Walker at all with Marina or in the presence of Marina or with Lee Oswald or in his presence in your home or their home or even out in the parkway on the subject of General Walker up to April 11, 1963?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. None whatsoever?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Any discussion between yourself and your husband on that day?
Mrs. PAINE. No; none that I recall.
Mr. JENNER. Do you subscribe to a newspaper?
Mrs. PAINE. At that time I subscribed to the Irving local paper.
Mr. JENNER. Is that an evening or a morning paper?
Mrs. PAINE. At that time it was a morning paper.
Mr. JENNER. Morning paper. Do you have a recollection of being aware in the edition of April 11 of an attack on General Walker the night before?
Mrs. PAINE. It is more likely that I heard it on television. I think I must have heard it.
Mr. JENNER. You have a television and a radio?
Mrs. PAINE. We get news from the television.
Mr. JENNER. And you were aware of the attack on General Walker the evening of April 10. Did you see Marina Oswald on the 11th?
Mrs. PAINE. I can only guess so judging from these marks on my calendar.
Mr. JENNER. We would like your very best recollection, please, Mrs. Paine?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall; I just don't recall.
Mr. JENNER. You just don't have any present recollection that you did see her on the 11th or you didn't? You just have no---you are blank?
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Mrs. PAINE. I can only guess from the calendar, that is all.
Mr. JENNER. Other than that entry you have no recollection whatsoever?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. DULLES. If you had seen her would it have been at her house, at her apartment?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't even know that.
Mr. DULLES. Wouldn't you have remembered four trips back and forth?
Mrs. PAINE. I remember that I made such trills, but which day it is, it is very difficult to know.
Mr. DULLES. I see. But you think--have you had a recollection about seeing her at this time, without pinpointing it?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion between you and Marina on the subject of the General Walker incident?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. None whatsoever?
Mrs. PAINE. I am trying to recall now when she first told me that Lee was out of work. The next note I have of having seen them, and you must understand this calendar by no means tells everything I have done or would even be accurate about what I have done on account of what has happened, but at some point she told me that he was out of work.
Mr. JENNER. Was it some point near the time we are now discussing?
Mrs. PAINE. Near the time we are now discussing. I am trying to get some content in order to answer the question of what happened, did I see her, what happened. The next date I have down for seeing her is a picnic on the 20th of April.
Mr. JENNER. Had she told you-
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall it having been that long, but it probably was, between the 11th and the picnic. It was before the picnic she told that he was out of work and had been for a few days before he told her.
Now, you probably know when he was out of work, but I don't, when he lost his job. So I am judging that possibly this was mentioned on the 11th that he was out of work, because we did plan to have a picnic on the 20th which included Lee, but it could have been even that day that she told me that he was out of work and had been for some- time.
Mr. JENNER. Was there any day on or about this time, the 10th or 11th or 12th, within those 3 days, that you saw Marina, where your attention was arrested by her being upset or disturbed?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. In any fashion?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Now, I notice in your calendar and entry April 16. "St. Marks open again 12 noon." Is that the school your children attend?
Mrs. PAINE. No, they are both preschool age. It must have been an Easter--my children are preschool age.
Mr. JENNER. What was the occasion of your making that entry?
Mrs. PAINE. I probably wanted to visit the class.
Mrs. JENNER. What class?
Mrs. PAINE. A language class. This is a school at which I subsequently taught. Last summer I taught at St. Marks School.
Mr. JENNER. You were visiting the class in advance of your teaching?
Mrs. PAINE. So I probably wanted to visit--no, just any language class there, and inquired, I judge, you see, you will find on Good Friday no school, too, the 12th. So I was marking when the Easter vacation was for St. Marks in order to make plans sometime later to go and visit.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Would you return to April 2, that dinner. Is that entry "dinner at 8"? I couldn't quite figure out
Mrs. PAINE. I believe that is the 7.
Mr. JENNER. Seven. Was anything said that night about Lee Oswald's work?
Mrs. PAINE. No; nothing.
Mr. JENNER. About his job?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, I asked him how could I reach them if I had to call off a
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get-together. I had no way of telephoning Marina. If the child got sick how would I tell her I am not coming. So I said could I have his telephone at work in order to reach them through him if I felt it necessary some time, and he wrote down for me the address and telephone number of the place where he worked. This was on the 2d of April.
Mr. JENNER. And that, I will turn to that, if I might, and that will be Commission Exhibit 402, and we have a like photograph of the exhibit. Is all of that exhibit in your handwriting?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, I have just said he wrote down Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall.
Mr. JENNER. There is one entry that is in his handwriting?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Give us the letter page of that, will you?
Mrs. PAINE. The letter page, "O" for Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. "O" for Oswald. The entry Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall was written by Mr. Oswald; all other entries on that page are in your handwriting; is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Are all other entries in the entire address book in your handwriting?
Mrs. PAINE. Did we go over it? What did I say?
Mr. JENNER. Yes, we did this morning.
Mrs. PAINE. I would guess so. I don't recall. Did we say so this morning?
I will have to look it over again.
Mr. JENNER. I am not permitted to testify, Mrs. Paine.
Mrs. PAINE. All right. You want me to look right now? I usually write the addresses down myself, so it would be quite unusual for someone else to.
Mr. JENNER. Is this address book in the same condition now as it was when you gave it to the police?
Mrs. PAINE. I did not give it to the police, they took it, and I didn't know it was gone until later that day. It is in the same condition except it has been through the finger-printing process.
Mr. JENNER. I am particularly interested--
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is all in my handwriting.
Mr. JENNER. I am particularly interested in the entries on the page lettered "O," and I want to especially ask you whether that page is in the same condition now as it was when it was--
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is.
Mr. DULLES. Could I ask the witness why there are certain lines half horizontal, half perpendicular there, certain of these?
Mrs. PAINE. It means it is an old address, no longer applicable.
Mr. DULLES. I see.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Dulles, you were referring to the page lettered "O"?
Mr. DULLES. That is correct; yes.
Mr. JENNER. I had digressed or interrupted at that point because you, for the first time, made reference to an entry in your address book made by Mr. Oswald. Mr. Chairman, I offer in evidence the document identified as Exhibit 401.
Mr. McCLOY. Where is that
Mr. JENNER. 402 rather. That is the address book.
Mr. McCLOY. It may be admitted.
(Commission Exhibit No. 402 was received in evidence.)
Mr. JENNER. And you were relating that you inquired as to how you could reach them if you had to reach them, and Mr. Lee Oswald wrote--
Mrs. PAINE. His work, the name of the company and the telephone number.
Mr. JENNER. I take it they did not have a telephone?
Mrs. PAINE. They did not; no.
Mr. JENNER. Did they ever have a telephone even when they were in New Orleans?
Mrs. PAINE. No; they did not.
Mr. JENNER. When they came back again to Dallas, they did not?
Mrs. PAINE. They did not.
(At this point in the proceedings Senator Cooper left the Commission hearing room.)
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Mr. JENNER. Now, was the April 2d occasion the second time that you had seen Lee?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Oswald? You had not seen him in the interim?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. When next did you see him?
Mrs. PAINE. I next saw him on the 20th of April at a picnic at a park near where they lived on Neely Street.
Mr. JENNER. In between certainly the 2d of April and, possibly, in that period from the 8th, 9th, 10th and 11th, let us take that period up, until the time of the 20th, did you see Marina Oswald in between?
Mrs. PAINE. Did you say between the
Mr. JENNER. Between the 8th and 10th through the 20th.
Mrs. PAINE. I guess not; between the 11th or so and the 20th.
Mr. JENNER. Is that your best recollection?
Mrs. PAINE. So far as I know, no.
Mr. JENNER. How did you communicate with her about the picnic?
Mrs. PAINE. Probably by letter.
Mr. JENNER. By a letter. Do you have that letter?
Mrs. PAINE. I have--I don't know if I have it. I have a letter that closes "October 20th" in my hand, a scratch note.
Mr. JENNER. Could I look at that correspondence this evening?
Mrs. PAINE. At the same time.
Mr. JENNER. Thank you.
Then the next occasion was when you had the picnic on the 20th, is that right?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. I notice in that entry what looks to me like "Miss Mary 7:15." What is the significance of that?
Mrs. PAINE That is probably going out in the evening. It had no relationship with the picnic at all. It has a relationship with a dinner group which is at the time, you see the 'line "dinner group--7:15 Miss Mary," who is a babysitter.
Mr. JENNER. That entry has nothing to do with the Oswalds?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Without elaborating, please, Mrs. Paine, what would the subjects of discussion between you and Marina and Mr. Oswald have been at the picnic?
Mrs. PAINE. At the picnic?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. PAINE. He spent most of his time fishing. We saw almost nothing of him and heard virtually nothing from him. I was impressed with his unwillingness to be sociable really in this situation. He came to eat when it was time to, and complained about the food.
Mr. JENNER. Did he complain about the food?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Was your husband present at this picnic?
Mrs. PAINE. No; he was not.
Mr. DULLES. Did you supply the food?
Mrs. PAINE. No; Marina had cooked it. He complained about it. He caught a fish, as I recall, and took it home to be cleaned. I hardly know who would clean it.
Representative FORD. Who did clean it?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't know. I left about that time.
Mr. JENNER. What discussion occurred between you and Lee Oswald, if any, with respect to his life in Russia on that occasion?
Mrs. PAINE. None.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have any conversation with him other than some pleasantries?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't believe so. I can't even think of the pleasantry.
Mr. DULLES. As I understand it, as you were sitting there, the picnic took place in the park-----
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Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. DULLES. What was he doing?
Mrs. PAINE. He was way over at the lake fishing.
Mr. DULLES. He was over fishing at the lake?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did any further discussion occur between you and Marina on that occasion, or on any interim occasion, of Mr. Oswald's desire to have her return to Russia or the fact that she did not wish the Russian emigre group to know she was pregnant and was about to have a child?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall specifically. I did feel that it wasn't a particularly happy occasion. I don't recall it with lightness.
Mr. JENNER. Was he out of work at that time or not?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; he was out of work. I knew at that time he was out of work. Whether I found out that morning or the previous time I had seen her I don't recall. I only recall when she said he was out of work she also said he had been out of work for a week or a few days before he told her.
Mr. JENNER. I would like to have you draw on your recollection as closely as you can. Did you learn of his being out of work from him or from Marina?
Mrs. PAINE. From her.
Mr. JENNER. What did she say on that subject as to whether he was discharged or whether he had left his employment or did she say anything in that area?
Mrs. PAINE. I judged he had been discharged.
Mr. JENNER. Give me your best recollection of what she said.
Mrs. PAINE. Do you want something else?
Mr. JENNER. Give me your best recollection of what she said, Mrs. Paine.
Mrs. PAINE. I can't recall it that closely.
Mr. JENNER. You next have an entry on April 24 reading "Lee and Marina." Do you find it?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Was that a meeting with Lee Harvey Oswald and his wife. Marina?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Where was that held?
Mrs. PAINE. That was to be a visit at the apartment on Neely Street.
Mr. JENNER. At their apartment?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did it take place?
Mrs. PAINE. I arrived and found that he was packed to go to New Orleans.
Mr. JENNER. Was this a surprise to you?
Mrs. PAINE. This was a distinct surprise.
Mr. JENNER. Had there been some communication between you and the Oswalds about your visiting them on the 24th of April?
Mrs. PAINE. It had been arranged that I would come over to visit as much as these other visits had been arranged, just with Marina to talk.
Mr. JENNER. Had you had any visit with. Marina between the 20th of April and the 24th?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. None whatsoever?
Mrs. PAINE. None.
Mr. JENNER. Had you arranged on the 20th to visit on the 24th?
Mrs. PAINE. Probably.
Mr. JENNER. That is your best recollection?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. What time of day did you arrive, or night?
Mrs. PAINE. Mid-morning, perhaps around 10.
Mr. JENNER. And then you found him packed or packing to leave?
Mrs. PAINE. He was fully packed. I was evidently expected. I and my car, because he asked if I could take these bags and duffel bags, suitcases, to the bus station for him.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
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Mrs. PAINE. Where he would buy a ticket to go to New Orleans, and he said he had not been able to.
Mr. JENNER. What he said to you is what I am interested in.
Mrs. PAINE. That he said--
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. PAINE. He said he had not been able to find work in Dallas, around Dallas, and Marina suggested going to New Orleans, which is where he had been born.
Mr. DULLES. He said she had suggested?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. That is my best recollection.
Mr. JENNER. Was Marina present now while he is relating this to you?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I think so.
Mr. JENNER. She was present. Was he speaking in Russian or in English?
Mrs. PAINE. I think he must have been speaking in English when he asked me to take the things to the bus station and explained that he was going to look for work.
Mr. JENNER. Your best recollection is that this was in English?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall. It could well have been in Russian also. He didn't like to speak English to me. He preferred to speak Russian.
The CHAIRMAN. To you?
Mrs. PAINE. To me; yes.
Representative FORD. Did he ever indicate why?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. I think you said to me this morning, and please correct me if my recollection is not good, that he always spoke to you in Russian.
Mrs. PAINE. With, perhaps, a couple of rare exceptions, yes, he spoke to me in Russian. When I tried to teach him to drive I tried to explain to him, proceeded to explain to him in English.
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, you tried to teach him to do what?
Mrs. PAINE. To drive. This is later.
Mr. JENNER. Drive, yes.
Mrs. PAINE. But he would answer me in Russian, which is a way of getting the person to go back to Russian. But I couldn't explain driving in Russian, so I did it in English.
Mr. JENNER. That incident, Mrs. Paine, is very important, and we will get to that at a later stage as to your efforts to teach him to drive.
Going back to this 24th of April, there was here, this was, a complete surprise to you. You arrived at the home and this man was all packed to go to New Orleans.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Had you had any discussion with Marina about her coming to live with you of which she was aware prior to this occasion on April 24?
Mrs. PAINE. I had discussed with her the possibility of her coming at the time the baby was expected.
Mr. JENNER. When was the baby expected?
Mrs. PAINE. Mid-October.
Mr. JENNER. But there had been no discussion up to April 24, to your recollection, even about your inviting Marina to come to live with you?
Mrs. PAINE. You mean on a more permanent basis, other than to stay when the baby was due?
Mr. JENNER. Yes; which would be in the fall of the year.
Mrs. PAINE. That is right. There was none.
Mr. JENNER. There was no discussion about her coming to live with you in the spring around about this time?
Mrs. PAINE. I remember feeling when I arrived that they were, and probably appropriately, making their own plans, and wondering whether I should have already made this invitation, but I had not.
Mr. JENNER. You say they were already making their own plans; are you seeking to imply that they had some notion she might join you?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I don't think there was any notion. I am trying to say I recall that I hadn't made that invitation at that time.
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Mr. JENNER. To the best of your recollection it is now that you had not discussed the subject with Marina up to this occasion?
Mrs. PAINE. Not the subject of staying on with me as an alternative to going back to Russia.
Mr. JENNER. Only staying with you in the fall?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. When the baby came?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. What did you say, Mrs. Paine excuse me. First, have you exhausted your recollection of everything that Lee Oswald said on that occasion when you arrived there?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. What did you say?
Mrs. PAINE. I said, yes, I would take his bags to the station if he wanted me to.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mrs. PAINE. And we then did.
Mr. JENNER. You Just left?
Mrs. PAINE. Take them to the bus station to be checked.
Mr. JENNER. Did Marina accompany you?
Mrs. PAINE. Marina went, and he checked the baggage. It was rather more than he could have carried on the city bus, and I am sure he preferred me to a taxi because I don't cost as much.
Mr. JENNER. You didn't cost anything?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right. And he then bought a ticket, he bought a ticket for Marina, I mean I was thinking, while he was in the bus station, and suggested that it would be a very difficult thing for a pregnant woman with a small child to take a 12-hour, 13-hour bus trip to New Orleans, and suggested that I drive her down with June.
Mr. JENNER. You volunteered this?
Mrs. PAINE. I volunteered this, and suggested further that instead of her staying at her--at the apartment, as was planned at that time, while waiting to hear from him, that she come and stay at my house where he would reach us by phone, and where she would have someone else with her while she waited to hear if he got work.
Mr. JENNER. This was the conversation between you and Lee Harvey Oswald? Was it in English or in Russian?
Mrs. PAINE. Probably in Russian. I would think so, because I wanted her to understand.
Mr. JENNER. Was Marina along?
Mrs. PAINE. She was present.
Mr. JENNER. She was present; I see.
Representative FORD. This took place where, in the car?
Mrs. PAINE. Probably in the bus station--in the car near the bus station. He then took the bus ticket back, returned it, and got the money.
The CHAIRMAN. Ticket for her?
Mrs. PAINE. Ticket for her.
Mr. DULLES. Her bus ticket?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; and he left some money for her for buying things in the next few days before she could join him.
Mr. JENNER. Did he get on the bus then and depart?
Mrs. PAINE. No; the bus left in the evening We all drove back to the apartment after he had checked the baggage, and he helped load the baby things and things that Marina would need during the next few days into my car, and we emptied what was left there of the things that were in the apartment, and which belonged to them, and then drove, I drove with Marina and June and my two children back to my house, and he stayed at the apartment. He was scheduled to leave by bus, city bus, and an interstate bus that evening.
Mr. JENNER. I take it then, Mrs. Paine, that your impression was that it was contemplated, when you arrived at the Oswalds that morning, that Mrs. Oswald, Marina, and her child June, and her husband, Lee, were contemplating going to New Orleans together that day?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
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Mr. JENNER. Am I wrong?
Mrs. PAINE. That is wrong. She was to have stayed in the apartment.
Mr. JENNER. I see.
Mrs. PAINE. And wait to hear from him.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. PAINE. If they had been going together that would not have been the hardship on her, but that traveling alone was, I felt.
Representative FORD. Why did he buy the ticket for her at the--
Mrs. PAINE. To leave with her so that she could follow him when he called, to leave the ticket in her hand as a means of her following him. I haven't been clear.
Mr. JENNER. It was a little indefinite.
Mr. DULLES. I thought the ticket had been redeemed; then he bought another ticket?
Mrs. PAINE. He bought a ticket for himself and a ticket for her.
Mr. DULLES. You said, "I will take her," and then he redeemed the ticket for her, and gave her the cash?
Mr. JENNER. Gave her some money?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
The CHAIRMAN. But the ticket that he did buy for her--
Mrs. PAINE. Was to have been left with her.
The CHAIRMAN. Was for a subsequent date?
Mrs. PAINE. For a subsequent date following.
The CHAIRMAN. Yes.
Mrs. PAINE. That is it.
Mr. JENNER. That was clear to you on that occasion?
Mrs. PAINE. That was clear.
Mr. JENNER. She was scheduled to join him subsequently?
Mrs. PAINE. She was scheduled to join him subsequently if he did find work. If he found no work there would have been no point to her making the trip.
Mr. JENNER. Is this a discussion or is it your rationalization?
Mrs. PAINE. It was clearly said she would stay.
Mr. DULLES. I am puzzled. I am puzzled, Mr. Jenner, about this ticket business.
Mr. JENNER. I am, too.
Mr. DULLES. A ticket was bought for her on the theory that she was going with him first.
Mr. McCLOY. No.
Mr. DULLES. That is where I got off the track. He bought two tickets, then why was the ticket redeemed?
Mr. McCLOY. Because it was made clear by Mrs. Paine that she was going to take Marina down in her own car.
Mr. DULLES. But only going to stay with you during the period until he got work, hence she wouldn't need a ticket. You were going to drive her down?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You would drive her down all the way to New Orleans?
Mrs. PAINE. In either case it was planned to delay going.
Mr. DULLES. She would go down if he got work, but she would not need a ticket if she stayed with you. Therefore, the ticket was redeemed.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. But I did not think of this or suggest it until after he had already bought the ticket.
Representative FORD. May I ask this, Mrs. Paine? In the things that were packed when you arrived, or things that were packed while you were present--
Mrs. PAINE. Nothing was packed while I was present. It was already packed.
Representative FORD. Everything was already packed by the time you got there?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Representative Ford. Were any of the things for Marina or Lee packed?
Mrs. PAINE. They were all packed. I don't understand your question. All of the things he wanted to take with him to the bus station were already packed.
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Representative FORD. Well, in that group of things which were so packed, were there things for Marina and Lee?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Representative FORD. I mean Marina and June, excuse me?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. Some of their things were among those things, yes, I judge so, clothing. The things that remained were a crib, playpen, baby stroller, some dishes, some clothing.
Representative FORD. The things you would not ordinarily take on a bus, however.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it would be very difficult. That was another one of the things that motivated me to suggest driving her down. I thought sending these by train, with the risk of their getting strayed or--it would be difficult, trying, for her to try to handle them, or convey them with her by bus--that would have been worse.
Representative FORD. But there were some things that were packed in the things that Lee was going to take with him that would include things--
Mrs. PAINE. That belonged--
Representative FORD. To--to Marina and to June?
Mrs. PAINE. I would judge so simply by what remained. Surely it was not the total sum of her clothing and June's clothing.
Representative FORD. Which could lead a person to the conclusion that at one stage of their discussion Marina was going to accompany Lee to New Orleans.
Mrs. PAINE. Not from the time I arrived.
Representative FORD. From the station.
Mrs. PAINE. It was clear she would stay up in the apartment.
Mr. JENNER. Up to that time it appeared to you from what was in the duffelbag.
Mrs. PAINE. I think he was carrying all he could to lighten her burden. In other words, if and when she followed, he was carrying all he could.
Mr. JENNER. Representative Ford is interested in this, Mrs. Paine.
Mr. DULLES. I am puzzled, too.
Mr. JENNER. When you arrived at the Oswald apartment that morning, Lee Oswald had duffelbags packed and some--
Mrs. PAINE. Suitcases.
Mr. JENNER. Suitcases. He had in those suitcases and in the duffelbag some of the apparel for Mrs. Marina?
Mrs. PAINE. Of course, I did not see it. I have to guess what was in it.
Mr. JENNER. But, from your knowledge of the household and afterwards, this was at least your impression?
Mrs. PAINE. That they must have included some of her things.
Mr. JENNER. Yes. Which, in turn, might lead to the inference that, therefore, they contemplated at that moment from what he was taking that Marina was ultimately to join him in New Orleans.
Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes; absolutely.
Mr. JENNER. Is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. Was that your question?
Representative FORD. Or even at one point in the process of packing, she and June were going to accompany him to New Orleans on the bus.
Mrs. PAINE. I didn't have that impression, no. No, he was going and happened to stay with an aunt and uncle where he could live without much charge. For her to come would have been quite a greater expense, and a risky one without a job, nothing coming in, so he was hoping that he could stay with the aunt and uncle while he looked, and then if he got remunerative work, get an apartment and call her to come, too.
Representative FORD. If that is so, and let us assume that is so.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Representative FORD. It puzzles me that he went into the bus station and bought two tickets, one for himself and one for her.
Mrs. PAINE. How would she get there?
Representative FORD. Well, eventually she might have to go by bus. But why should he at this time make an investment in a bus ticket when there was no certainty--
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Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes.
Representative FORD. When she might follow? This is what puzzles me.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. Well, I can only guess about this. I judge from his having done this that he certainly intended for her to follow, and it is also Possible she couldn't have asked for a bus ticket herself. If he had written her and said, "Don't come to New Orleans, come to Nashville," and he had said, "That is where I have got my job," he might have felt she would not know how to go and get such a bus ticket.
Mr. DULLES. Is it also possible he may not have wanted to leave that amount of money with her to buy a ticket and preferred to leave her a ticket rather than cash?
Mrs. PAINE. This is possible, this is possible.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Now, Mrs. Paine, in light of that speculation, tell us what discussion there was on the subject.
Mrs. PAINE. I think I have, that while he was in the bus station I thought how difficult it would be for her to travel alone with the baby, and all the things--
Mr. JENNER. And you raised that yourself for the first time at that point?
Mrs. PAINE. Then I said she might stay with me while waiting to hear from him, and that I would drive her down if we did hear that he had gotten work.
Mr. JENNER. Had there been prior discussion that it was contemplated that, if he obtained a position, she would join him in New Orleans, or wherever he obtained a position.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. We had already talked about that at the apartment.
Mr. JENNER. And that had been discussed with her present?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And discussed in Russian so that she could have understood the discussion?
Mrs. PAINE. To the best of my recollection, yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, Mrs. Paine, the staff is interested in Lee Harvey Oswald's luggage.
Mrs. PAINE. What?
Mr. JENNER. His luggage.
Mrs. PAINE. Luggage.
Mr. JENNER. Would you please, to the best of your recollection, tell us what pieces of luggage he had on that occasion, what they looked like, their shape and form?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. He had two large marine duffelbags with his name on them, and probably his Marine serial number. It was marked with a good deal of white paint. It stood quite high.
Mr. JENNER. Were they up-ended when you say high? You mean standing on end, they were high?
Mrs. PAINE. Standing on their end they would come well above this table.
Mr. JENNER. I see. About 40 inches?
Mrs. PAINE. Something like that; I would guess so.
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, I am interested in just that. Would you go over to the drawing board and move your hand, judge from the floor, and stop right there? We will measure that later.
Mrs. PAINE. Understand I saw those two later in my garage.
Mr. JENNER. I understand, and I will get to that. That is just about 45 inches, and there were two of them?
Mrs. PAINE. There were two of them. Do you want anything about the rest of the luggage? Does that interest you the most?
Mr. JENNER. Yes, I am interested, and I would like to stick with the duffel-bags for a moment. Was there any appearance as to either duffelbag, which, to you, would indicate some long, slim, hard----
Mrs. PAINE. I assume them to be both full of clothes, very rounded.
Mr. JENNER. I 'don't wish to be persistent, but was there anything that you saw about the duffelbags that lead you at that time to even think for an instant that there was anything long, slim and hard like a pole?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
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Mr. JENNER. Or a gun, a rifle?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. No? Nothing?
Mrs. PAINE. Nothing. I did not move these bags.
Mr. JENNER. To the extent you saw them is all I am inquiring about. You did not touch them, you did not lift them, but you saw them.
Mrs. PAINE. I did.
Mr. JENNER. There appeared--the entire circumference of these bags which you could see was smooth?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, smooth, bumpy, but irregular.
Mr. JENNER. But no stick, no hard surface. Now, what about the diameter of these bags, these duffelbags, what would you say it was?
Mrs. PAINE. About like this, 15, 18, 20 inches across.
Mr. JENNER. Eighteen, twenty inches across?
Mrs. PAINE. Probably more than that.
Mr. JENNER. This is 15 inches.
Mrs. PAINE. About like this; a little more than 15, probably.
Mr. JENNER. About 18 inches. Now, how many pieces of luggage in addition to the two duffelbags?
Mrs. PAINE. Quite a few. There were probably three suitcases.
Mr. JENNER. Three suitcases?
Mrs. PAINE. Or more. A small radio bought in Russia.
Mr. JENNER. I want to stick with the luggage.
Mrs. PAINE. All right.
Mr. JENNER. Three suitcases?
Mrs. PAINE. I think so, two or three, and a large softsided suitcase, I don't know what to call it. It zips around the side.
Mr. JENNER. Zipper case?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, made of canvas.
Mr. JENNER. We would like to have you describe that zipper case.
Mrs. PAINE. It is green----
Mr. JENNER. I am interrupting you, I am sorry. Were there any other pieces of luggage, first?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall.
Mr. JENNER. So there were two or three or possibly four, is that true, suitcases?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And there was a zipper case?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Describe this zipper case to us first.
Mrs. PAINE. It stood about so high [indicating].
Mr. JENNER. So high is 15 inches, about 30 inches long?
Mrs. PAINE. Not quite, about that long [indicating].
Mr. JENNER. It was a generous sized zipper case?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. With generally green canvas and leather, dark-colored leather.
Mr. JENNER. Black or brown do you remember the color?
Mrs. PAINE. Dark brown, I guess, or black, certainly very dark.
Mr. JENNER. It was a generous sized one, was it not?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did it appear to be well packed?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Would you describe each of the three suitcases now, with particular reference to the staff being interested in whether they were rectangular, whether they were hard boarded types of things, or whether they were canvas or soft?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't remember how many there were. I recall they had a hard composition kind of suitcase such as you don't buy here, and I judge they were bought in the Soviet Union. I think there may have been two of those.
Mr. JENNER. Was any one of them rectangular in shape?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. That was rectangular.
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Mr. JENNER. The one you specifically have in mind, he did have a rectangular one?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And what color was it?
Mrs. PAINE. Dark, blackish green, or dark brown, something of this nature.
Mr. JENNER. Anything else you can think about it in the way of description?
Mrs. PAINE. I think it had--it was reinforced, corners, with rivets, or bolts, of something to hold it, hold the corners on it.
Mr. DULLES. How long was this rectangular suitcase?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall. In fact, I can't recall whether it was one or two, but something like that, normal suitcases.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, may I have your permission to approach the witness?
Mr. McCLOY. And take the measurements?
Mrs. PAINE. And take the measurements.
Mr. McCLOY. The witness may be approached.
Mrs. PAINE. That or larger, I would say.
Mr. JENNER. You are now describing the length of the rectangular suitcase, is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And that would be 2 1/2 inches?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. That is your best recollection?
Mrs. PAINE. I am brief in my recollection, a normal rectangular shape here.
Mr. JENNER. Width, that is the side, you mean?
Mrs. PAINE. That is the whole thing. That is looking at the top. How high it is.
Mr. JENNER. No; wide.
Mrs. PAINE. I am filling it out. This would be the width then from here to here, possibly more.
Mr. JENNER. Fourteen inches?
Mrs. PAINE. I am not sure I am recalling one or two at the same time. I have to be under oath, and giving you details on things I don't recall that well.
Mr. JENNER. All we are seeking is your best recollection.
Mrs. PAINE. All right, that is my best recollection.
Mr. JENNER. Twenty-one and a half times fourteen, and how high was it?
Mrs. PAINE. About so, 6, about 6.
Mr. JENNER. I said high. Was this lying flat on its side when you saw it?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, all these things again I saw in the fall, so it is a mixed recollection.
Mr. JENNER. I am going to get as to what you saw in the fall, but it is important to us as to what you saw on this occasion.
Mrs. PAINE. Well, I particularly recall the duffels because they are unusual, and I recall this bag being, I judge Russian make rather than American, it was a large zipper bag.
Mr. JENNER. And Mrs. Paine, you do recall that zipper bag on this occasion?
Mrs. PAINE. I believe so.
Mr. JENNER. And there was at least one, if not more than one, rectangular--
Mrs. PAINE. I can't be certain of the zipper bag.
Mr. JENNER. Hard-sided suitcase?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; hard-sided suitcase. I can't be certain, absolutely certain, of the zipper bag. I recall seeing so much of it since, tripped over it numerous times, that it may be just that I recalled it. I didn't move this luggage at all.
Mr. JENNER. I am not suggesting that you did.
Mrs. PAINE. I am sorry I can't remember it better.
Mr. JENNER. Were all of these suitcases about the same size and shape?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. You have described the rectangular one. Would you now describe the second, the second in order of your recollection?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, there was at least another rectangular one.
Mr. JENNER. Hard-sided?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
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Mr. JENNER. Was it larger or smaller than the one you have described?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall with certainty.
Mr. JENNER. Was there a third?
Mrs. PAINE. There may have been a third. I certainly recall this radio that was unusual. The others I don't.
Mr. JENNER. It is possible you might be confused between the radio case and a suitcase.
Mrs. PAINE. No, no; no possibility of that.
Mr. JENNER. All right. He checked all these articles, checked them into the bus station?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And did you and Lee and Marina return to their home?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Did you remain there?
Mrs. PAINE. No. He then helped pack up the remaining things, the playpen. the bed, and then we left there midafternoon, perhaps 4, all of this must have taken quite a long time, because--
Mr. JENNER. They removed everything from their home?
Mrs. PAINE. They removed everything that remained to them.
Mr. JENNER. Put it in the station wagon?
Mrs. PAINE. Put it in the station wagon and went with Lee and Marina.
Mr. JENNER. Your station wagon was big enough to hold everything in the house, is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, they had no furniture, but it held all the rest of their things; yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did he do the packing?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. What were you doing in the meantime?
Mrs. PAINE. Packing was haphazard, this packing was haphazard; put the dishes in a box and carried it out to the car.
Mr. JENNER. It was in the open so you could see what went into your car?
Mrs. PAINE. I think so. I certainly then repacked it to go to New Orleans.
Mr. JENNER. Well, I want to stick with this occasion, please.
Mrs. PAINE. All right.
Mr. JENNER. Was there a rifle packed in the back of the car?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. You didn't see any kind of weapon?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Firearm, rifle, pistol, or otherwise?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I saw nothing of that nature.
Mr. JENNER. Did you drive them to your home?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Were the materials and things in your station wagon unpacked and placed in your home?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; immediately.
Mr. JENNER. Did you see that being done, were you present?
Mrs. PAINE. I helped do it; yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you see any weapon on that occasion?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Whether a rifle, pistol or--
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Or any covering, any package, that looked as though it might have a weapon, pistol, or firearm?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Up to this moment, Mrs. Paine, had there been any discussion with Marina or with Lee Harvey Oswald in connection with his life in Russia with the use of a firearm or his right to use one in Russia?
Mrs. PAINE. I never heard him mention anything of this sort. Michael told me later he mentioned it to Michael.
Mr. McCLOY. State that, please.
Mrs. PAINE. Michael told me later that Lee had complained in Michael's hearing that they did not permit a private individual to have a gun, but I didn't
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hear that when it was said. So there was no discussion at any time that mentioned guns, nothing brought up by Marina or Lee.
Mr. JENNER. I will broaden my question. Up to--now up to, and not including, up to November 22, 1963, had there ever been any discussion between you and Lee Harvey Oswald or between you and Marina or any discussion in the Presence of either of them by anybody, including yourself, about the use of a firearm by Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. Marina told me that he had been hunting in the Soviet Union.
Mr. JENNER. Now, please, to the best of your recollection when did that occur?
Mrs. PAINE. When did she tell me?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. PAINE. It might have been as long ago as May, when she was first staying at my house. She quoted a proverb to the effect that you go hunting in the Soviet Union and you catch a bottle of vodka, so I judge it was a social occasion more than shooting being the prime object.
Mr. JENNER. That was in this period when she was living with you in the spring of 1963?
Mrs. PAINE. It could have been there. It might have been in October, but I would guess it was in May.
Mr. JENNER. I wish you would elaborate on that.
Mrs. PAINE. I wish I wouldn't guess, I know.
Mr. JENNER. Did she say that Lee Harvey Oswald had some kind of a firearm in Russia?
Mrs. PAINE. That he had gone hunting with a group, in other words, in Russia.
Mr. JENNER. What was the occasion--
Mrs. PAINE. And she quoted this proverb.
Mr. JENNER. Can you remember the circumstance in which she made that utterance?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Anything that provoked it or brought it about?
Mrs. PAINE. I think she was probably recalling something of their life in Russia.
Mr. JENNER. In a discussion between you and Marina as to their life in Russia?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Any other occasion in which a discussion occurred between you and either of them or in their presence while you were present on the subject of a firearm prior to November 22?
Mrs. PAINE. On one occasion around the middle of November I said to Marina that--
Mr. JENNER. Was Lee Harvey Oswald present?
Mrs. PAINE. He was not present.
Mr. JENNER. Just Marina and you?
Mrs. PAINE. Just Marina and I.
Mr. JENNER. Was it in your home?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. I said to her that I did not want to buy toy guns for my children, and that this view of things was shared with a German friend of mine who had been a young girl at the time of the last World War in Germany, and she didn't wish to buy guns for her children to play with, and I said too few people think about this. She said nothing in reply.
Mr. JENNER. She didn't say anything at all in response to that. Does that exhaust your recollection of all discussion of firearms?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it does.
Mr. JENNER. That occurred in your presence?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Up to November 22, 1963?
Mrs. PAINE. Up to, that is right.
Mr. McCLOY. There was no suggestion of Lee's using a firearm for hunting purposes in the United States?
Mrs. PAINE. None; nor that he might have had any gun.
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Mr. McCLOY. Nor that he might have had any gun.
Mr. JENNER. After Marina's things and the baby's things had been placed in your home then what occurred in the evening, was this late in the day of the 24th?
Mrs. PAINE. It was close to supper. I am sure we then ate and put our children to bed, possibly talked a short time. I no doubt explained to her quite soon that I was to go away for the weekend. Indeed, this invitation was made quite on the spur of the moment. You don't normally invite someone to come and stay with you when you are about to go away, but I was to go to a folk-dance camp with Michael that weekend, and you see on the calendar "FDC" which stands for folk-dance camp, arrow San Antonio. That is the 26th, 27th and 28th.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; I noticed that.
Mrs. PAINE. And I left her in the house with the telephone number of a Russian tutor to call, and I believe they talked, in fact, before I left.
Mr. JENNER. Would you tell us the name of your Russian tutor.
Mr. DULLES. Could I ask one question that we passed by?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. DULLES. When you unloaded Marina's things and the baby's things, did this subtract one suitcase from this number you have indicated? Was one of the suitcases delegated to her things or were they Just loose in the car?
Mrs. PAINE. Insofar as I remember, I believe they were loose.
Mr. DULLES. They were loose. So that the number of suitcases you have indicated were those that were eventually checked and taken by Lee Harvey Oswald to New Orleans.
Mrs. PAINE. Well, that is the way I remember it. It does not seem reasonable that he would go off without leaving her a suitcase to put her things in, so I would guess there was something for her in the nature, perhaps, of a small bag.
Mr. DULLES. So that one of these bags may have been unloaded at your house?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. McCLOY. You testified, I believe, you started to testify, that there was also a radio that had been presumably purchased in Russia. Did he take that with him?
Mrs. PAINE. He took that.
Mr. McCLOY. He took that with him. He didn't return that to her.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, I don't want to speculate, but I thought you had testified in response to my questions that the two or three pieces of luggage, that is, the suitcases, plus the two duffel bags, plus the zipper bag, plus the radio, had been checked into the bus station.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; that is right.
Mr. JENNER. All of those pieces of luggage were actually checked in, and when you left the bus station none of the pieces of luggage or the radio or the duffel bags had been placed back in your car.
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall it, but it seems to me unreasonable
Mr. JENNER. Now, please, I don't want you to rationalize. I want your best recollection.
Mrs. PAINE. I cannot recall. I mean the suitcases that came to my house.
Mr. JENNER. You don't recall having taken one of the pieces of luggage and placed that piece back in your station wagon?
Mrs. PAINE. Oh, no, no, that is definite. All that went to the bus station.
Mr. JENNER. Remained there.
Mrs. PAINE. Remained there.
Mr. JENNER. I see.
Mr. DULLES. At what stage did they go to the bus station? Did you go from their apartment to your house and then to the bus station or did you go to the bus station first?
Mrs. PAINE. Directly to the bus station.
Mr. DULLES. And then went to your house?
Mrs. PAINE. Directly to the bus station from their apartment, back to their apartment and picked up the rest of the things.
Mr. DULLES. I see.
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Mrs. PAINE. The baby things and her clothing and then went to my house.
Mr. DULLES. I see.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, apart from your rationalization, do you have the recollection that there was any luggage at all in the Oswald home when You got back?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I have no such recollection.
Mr. JENNER. So that in response to Mr. Dulles' questions when you talked about the possibility of some luggage, you were rationalizing?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. You are not drawing on your recollection?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. I take it your best recollection, in fact, is that there was no luggage remaining at the Oswald home when you got back?
Mrs. PAINE. There was nothing packed when we got back.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall undertaking to pack anything when you got back in order to remove what they had there remaining to your home?
Mrs. PAINE. You mean was there a suitcase into which I could pack anything?
Mr. JENNER. That is it.
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, you have related to us that you went away for the weekend.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. With your husband.
Mrs. PAINE. Right.
Mr. JENNER. Now, you have an entry in your diary, and I quote it on the 24th of April, 1963: "Lee and Marina."
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Was that an entry made after the fact?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I judge that was--
Mr. JENNER. Now, please give me your best recollection.
Mrs. PAINE. That was the plan to meet, knowing Lee was no longer working; it was there for not only a meeting with Marina, but I expected to see them both at the apartment.
Mr. JENNER. So that is confined to the meeting you expected to have with Lee and Marina that morning when you went there and, to your surprise, you found that Mr. Oswald was all packed to go to New Orleans.
Mrs. PAINE. All packed and looking for a cab; yes.
Mr. JENNER. How long did Marina remain in your home on that occasion?
Mrs. PAINE. She stayed then until May 9--well, excuse me, she stayed until the 10th of May.
Mr. JENNER. You have an entry, do you not, in your diary as to the May 9th or 10th.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Read it.
Mrs. PAINE. It says now going over to the 11th "New Orleans."
Mr. JENNER. And you have written across then "May 10 and May 11," is that right?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. What does the "New Orleans" signify, please?
Mrs. PAINE. Lee called on the evening of the 9th to say he had work.
Mr. JENNER. You recall that?
Mrs. PAINE. I recall that definitely. Marina says, "Papa naslubet," "Father loves us", "Daddy loves us, he got work and he wanted us to come." She was very elated.
Mr. JENNER. This is Marina talking to you?
Mrs. PAINE. I could see as she talked on the phone.
Mr. JENNER. You overheard this conversation?
Mrs. PAINE. Afterward. She said over and over, "Papa naslubet," "Daddy loves us," "Daddy loves us."
Mr. JENNER. She was elated?
Mrs. PAINE. She was elated and, let's see, we tried to think when we could leave, and first said over the phone that we would leave on the morning of the
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11th. But I thought it would be too long to do all this in one day, and we accelerated our preparations and left midday on the 10th which got us to Shreveport.
Mr. JENNER. Before we get into this, and I would like to cover this interim period before any adjournment today; there was a 16-day period now, approximately, maybe we will limit it to 15 days, that Marina stayed with you in your home.
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have conversations with her about her husband?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. About their life in Russia?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, even going so far as to wonder--
Mr. JENNER. During this 15-day period?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. We had such conversations.
Mr. JENNER Would you please relate to us your discussions with Marina with respect to her husband Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, she wondered if he did, in fact, love her.
Mr. JENNER. What did she say?
Mrs. PAINE. She said she supposed most couples had at some time wondered about this. She wondered herself whether she loved him truly. She talked some of her few months of dating that she had in Minsk, and of living there.
Mr. JENNER. That is before her marriage to Lee Harvey?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. At some point, and I want to tell you this, whether it is appropriate or whether it happened later in October, I can't be certain, but I think in May she told me that she had written a letter to a previous boyfriend, and that this letter had come back because she had put insufficient postage on it, and Lee had found it at the door coming back through the mail, and had been very angry.
Mr. JENNER. Did she go beyond that?
Mrs. PAINE. She did not. To tell me what was in the letter, you mean?
Mr. JENNER. I am not thinking so much within the letter. Did she go beyond stating that he was merely only angry? Was there any discussion about his having struck her?
Mr. PAINE. No; none. No; none. She never mentioned to me ever that Lee had struck her.
Mr. JENNER. And during all the visits you ever had with her, all the tete-a-tetes, her living with you on this occasion we now describe as 15 1/2 days, and in the fall, was there any occasion when Marina Oswald related to you any abuse, physical abuse, by her husband, Lee Harvey Oswald, with respect to her?
Mrs. PAINE. There was never any such occasion.
Mr. JENNER. Never any such occasion. And in particular this incident?
Mrs. PAINE. She related this incident, but it did not include anything further than he had been very angry and hurt.
Mr. JENNER. Up to this time, that is, the time she came to you on the 24th, had you ever seen any bruises--
Mrs. PAINE. No; I never saw her--
Mr. JENNER. On her person?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I never saw her bruised.
Mr. JENNER. At no time that you have ever seen her or known her, have you ever seen her bruised?
Mrs. PAINE. At no time.
Mr. JENNER. So that there has been no occasion when you have seen it, or been led to believe, she had been subjected to any physical abuse by her husband?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion during these 15 days of any occasion when Marina had gone off to live with someone else?
Mrs. PAINE. No. I think she told me that in the fall.
Mr. JENNER. I see. As long as I have raised that, would you please give us the time and the occasions and tell us what occurred?
Mrs. PAINE. What she told me?
Mr. JENNER. What she said. When was this?
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Mrs, PAINE, This probably was in October, She told me that the previous year she had--
Mr. JENNER. 1962?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. She had in the fall, she had gone to a friend's home, left Lee. She described his face as she left, as shocked and dismayed and unbelieving.
Mr. JENNER. Unbelieving?
Mrs. PAINE. In a sense that she was truly walking out on him.
Mr. JENNER. Yes. Excuse me. Did she put it in those terms, that she was leaving?
Mrs. PAINE, She was leaving; yes.
Mr. JENNER. She left him?
Mrs. PAINE, Yes; and went to stay with a friend, Then moved to the home.
Mr. JENNER. Did she name the friend?
Mrs. PAINE. She did not name the friend; no. The friend's name came up in another connection, but I had no way of making the connection until after I learned about this to whom she referred.
Mr. JENNER. Do you now recall the name?
Mrs. PAINE. She went to Katya Ford's.
The CHAIRMAN. To the Fords?
Mrs. PAINE. To Katya, being the friend, Mrs. Ford.
The CHAIRMAN. Mrs. Ford.
Mrs. PAINE. And then moved. She did tell me this--She had moved on the weekend to a different home. Then Lee came there, pleaded for her to comeback, promised that everything would be different. She went back and she reported--as she reported it to me, things were no different.
Mr. JENNER. Were not different?
Mrs. PAINE. Were not different.
Mr. JENNER. Did you undertake a discussion with her as to what the things were that were disturbing her?
Mrs. PAINE. That offended her that much? No; I did not.
Mr. JENNER. That led her to leave her husband?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. There was no discussion of that?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. McCLOY. Did you ever witness any altercations?
Mrs. PAINE. Indeed I saw them argue a good deal.
Mr. McCLOY. Sharp arguments?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. DULLES. But no violence of any kind?
Mrs. PAINE. No physical violence.
Mr. McCLOY. Any profanity?
Mrs. PAINE. I am not sure I know Russian profanity. He was very curt and told her to shut up quite a great deal.
Mr. JENNER. In your presence?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. In the presence of others?
Mrs. PAINE. Particularly in New Orleans the first time when we went down, when I took her to New Orleans in May, he was very discourteous to her, and they argued most of that weekend. I was very uncomfortable in that situation, and he would tell her to shut up, tell her, "1 said it, and that is all the discussion on the subject."
Representative FORD. What were the kinds of discussions that prompted this?
Mrs. PAINE. I can't recall that, and I have already had my brain picked trying to, with other people trying to, to recall what was the difficulty. I do recall feeling that the immediate things they were talking about were insufficient reason for that much feeling being passed back and forth, and I wondered if I wasn't adding to the strain in the situation, and did my best to get back to Texas directly. But the well, I do recall one thing, yes--we arrived with a big load of blackberries that we bought from a vendor along the street.
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Representative FORD. On the way down?
Mrs. PAINE. On the way down, on the road, and ate them, and then, he, one morning, started to make blackberry wine, and she bawled him out for it, what a waste of good blackberries, and she said, "What do you think you are doing? Ruining all this." And he proceeded, and argued about it, but thought he should, you know, defend himself. On this occasion she was making the attack in a sense and didn't think he should do it this way, and then, so, under fire and attack, he continued. But then the next day she observed that he had tossed it all out and lost heart after the argument, and decided it wasn't--
Mr. DULLES. He tossed out the wine?
Mrs. PAINE. He tossed it out; yes.
Mr. JENNER. You detected, then, irritability as between them. Is that a fair statement?
Mrs. PAINE. That is accurate.
Mr. JENNER. And anger rose to the surface pretty easily?
Mrs. PAINE. Very easily.
Mr. JENNER. What was your impression? Of course he hadn't seen her then for a couple of weeks.
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Tell us about it--when she came in. Did they embrace?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. We arrived at his uncle's in one section of New Orleans, and had a very friendly half hour or so.
Mr. JENNER. Was he there?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; he was there. He introduced her and little June, and played with June, on his shoulders, perhaps. At any rate, he was very glad to see the baby, and was congenial and outgoing. We talked with the relatives for a short time.
Then the uncle drove them to the apartment--I was following with my children in my car--drove to the apartment he had rented, which was in a different section of the city. And Lee showed her, of course, all the virtues of the apartment that he had rented. He was pleased that there was room enough, it was large enough that he could invite me to stay, and the children, to spend the night there. And he pointed out this little courtyard with grass, and fresh strawberries ready to pick, where June could play. And a screened porch entryway. And quite a large living room. And he was pleased with the furniture and how the landlady had said this was early New Orleans style. And Marina was definitely not as pleased as he had hoped. I think he felt--he wanted to please her. This showed in him.
Mr. JENNER. Tell us what she said. What led you to that conclusion?
Mrs. PAINE. She said it is dark, and it is not very clean. She thought the courtyard was nice, a grass spot where June could play, fenced in. But there was very little ventilation. We immediately were aware there were a lot of cockroaches.
Mr. JENNER. Was she aware of this, and did she comment on that?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't know as anything was said. He was pretty busy explaining. He was doing his best to get rid of them. But they didn't subside. I remember noticing that he was tender and vulnerable at that point, when she arrived.
Mr. JENNER. He was tender?
Mrs. PAINE. Hoping for--particularly vulnerable, hoping for approval from her, which she didn't give. It wasn't a terribly nice apartment. And she had been disappointed, because when we first arrived she thought that the home we were going to was the apartment.
Mr. JENNER. She thought the Murrets' home?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. So when we came up to the Murrets' home, she said, "This is lovely, how pleased I am." So that she was in--disappointed by contrast with the apartment that she really had to live in.
Representative FORD. She expressed this?
Mrs. PAINE. She expressed her disappointment; yes; and didn't meet his hopes to be pleased with it.
Mr. DULLES. As compared with their previous place of residence, how was the New Orleans apartment? It was bigger, I gather.
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Mrs. PAINE. It was larger. It was darker, less well ventilated. It was on the first floor, the other was upstairs. I would say they were comparable in cost and in attractiveness.
Mr. JENNER. What about vermin?
Mrs. PAINE. I didn't see any vermin at the first place. But then I didn't spend the night there.
Mr. JENNER. So the welcoming was cordial?
Mrs. PAINE. The welcoming was cordial.
Mr. JENNER. They seemed to have a fine relationship at that moment?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. But as the weekend progressed, and she saw the new apartment, all the time you were there, you were aware of friction and irritability?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Going back to the 15 days again, was there any discussion during this period, again, on the subject of Mr.--of Lee Oswald wishing Marina to return to Russia?
Mrs. PAINE. I believe I made definite, but only verbal, an invitation for her to stay on with me, past the time of the baby's birth, if she wished to.
Mr. JENNER. I take it I will get into that. But I take it your answer to my question first is yes.
Mrs PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, tell us what that discussion was.
Mrs. PAINE. Well--
Mr. JENNER. And how it arose.
Mrs. PAINE. Well, we still discussed the possibility of her coming back to have the baby here--although by no means a definite--definitely planned.
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. I am a little confused. When you say coming back to have the baby here--
Mrs. PAINE. It was assumed she would go to New Orleans when he called, but we talked about the possibility of her coming back to Dallas. I said she was still welcome to if she wants to, if it seems appropriate, to come here to have the baby.
Mr. DULLES. That was to your house, you mean?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; to stay at my house before, or especially right after the baby's birth, where I could look after June while she was in the hospital and later. June didn't take readily to strangers. She did like me and was comfortable with me, so I felt she might want to have someone she knew and got along with.
Mr. JENNER. But in this connection, was there a discussion between you and Marina Oswald subject to her husband wishing her to return to Russia?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't believe she again said that he was after her to return.
Mr. JENNER. Well, then, on the whole, your answer to my question would be no.
Mrs. PAINE. That is right. As far as I recall, it came up only once in our discussions prior to New Orleans.
Mr. JENNER. Which you have already related?
Mrs. PAINE. Right.
Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion during the 15-day period on the subject of her acquiring greater facility with the English language?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And his attitude toward that?
Mrs. PAINE. His attitude had already been discussed, and I don't believe it was particularly discussed further. But she did indicate that she was going to try to learn some anyway.
Mr. JENNER. Despite that?
Mrs. PAINE. I judged so. I asked if she had a book written in Russian entitled "The Self Teacher in the English Language." She did not. And I ordered it. And I think I gave it to her even then. I am quite certain of that. This turned out to be not much help. At least she was interested in trying to learn English.
Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion of the subject of it being disclosed to the Russian emigre group that she was pregnant.
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Mrs. PAINE. No; she continued to ask me not to mention that. We did, however, meet someone in the Russian emigré group in Fort Worth after she had the first day put on maternity clothes--and so she was sorry that that meeting had occurred. She judged now people would know.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Did anything else occur in the way of discussions during that 15-day period on the subject of life in Russia, his political philosophy, how they got along, his general disposition. her reaction to America?
Mrs. PAINE. She discussed her reaction to America. She was very impressed with the variety of goods available in the stores. She thought the quality was better here than in Russia. Then there was more of that later in October.
Mr. JENNER. I will get to that, in October. Have we pretty well exhausted this 15-day interim period, then?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, sir.
Representative FORD. Mr. Jenner, may I ask a question there? During this 15-day period, did any individual, male or female, come and visit you at your home?
Mrs. PAINE. You mean particularly to see her? I am sure there are people coming and going at my house. There must have been. For instance, May 1, Mary--this is again Miss Mary referred to previously, a babysitter, "8:15. War and Peace." Mary came and stayed with my children, and Marina and June and I went to see War and Peace. Miss Mary recalls that meeting.
Mr. JENNER. Is that a play or the movie?
Mrs. PAINE. This is the movie, War and Peace, in English. But, of course, she knew the story, so she could enjoy seeing it. "Ed tennis confirm." I went over to play tennis. On the fourth of May, Craig's children--they came here.
Representative FORD. Into your home?
Mrs. PAINE. Probably.
Mr. JENNER. Who is Craig?
Mrs. PAINE. Craig is this young German woman who didn't want to buy guns for her children either, that I mentioned. And we exchanged children often.
Mr. JENNER. Does she speak Russian?
Mrs. PAINE. No; German only, and English. And, mow the lawn, it says on the third, but that is not me, it is a neighbor who mows the lawn. And May 9 in the morning, "Ilse"--means Mrs. Craig again--kept my children while I went at 8:10 to Saint Marks for an interview. So there was a normal flow. And I told my immediate neighbor, Mrs. Roberts, who figures later, that Marina was there over the weekend, that I wouldn't be there, and introduced them, so Marina could go to Mrs. Roberts and make signs or symbols if she had to get a message through to someone.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Roberts is your next door neighbor?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Then your response to Representative Ford's question is that.
Mrs. PAINE. A normal flow to my house.
Mr. JENNER. But there wasn't anybody that came specifically to see her from the Russian emigre group, is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Representative FORD. Were there any telephone calls to her from anybody of this group, or any other group?
Mrs. PAINE. No. I made the contact for her with my tutor, got her to call. But that is all.
Mr. DULLES. She probably could not operate the telephone.
Mrs. PAINE. She could. That was the first I knew. I wasn't certain. But she knew how to operate the telephone.
Mr. JENNER. I am pleased you raised that, sir.
She could dial. Did you have the dial system in effect at that time?
Mrs. PAINE. Way out in Irving; yes.
Mr. JENNER. And she could dial the number if she wished?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; she knew how to do that.
Mr. McCLOY. Did you at any time get any evidence to indicate that she was in touch with any Soviet officials at all, the consul general? Did she ever talk of going to the Soviet Embassy or the Soviet Consulate in regard to her problems?
Mrs. PAINE. No. The only thing ever mentioned was this that I have already
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mentioned for the record--that she had written to the Soviet Embassy inquiring. about papers to go back.
Mr. McCLOY. Did you think she did that on her own initiative?
Mrs. PAINE. No; because he was insisting.
Mr. DULLES. We have a copy of that letter, have we not?
Mr. McCLOY. Did she ever tell you why she didn't want to return to the Soviet Union?
Mrs. PAINE. She said she liked America better.
Mr. McCLOY. And she rather liked the conditions here better than she had experienced them in the Soviet Union?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. McCLOY. And that you think was her fundamental motivation for staying here?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. McCLOY. Wanting to stay here? When you were in contact with her at all did any--when she was staying with you, was there any unidentified characters or people that called to see her?
Mrs. PAINE. No; there was no one at all that called to see her.
Mr. JENNER. Were there any telephone calls received during that period when you answered the phone that someone asked for Marina?
Mrs. PAINE. Only that from Lee on the night.
Mr. JENNER. Only from Lee?
Mrs. PAINE. Only from Lee.
Mr. JENNER. No other calls to her?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. And no other callers--that is persons who came to your home?
Mrs. PAINE. None.
Mr. McCLOY. What was the name of these De Mohrenschildts. Did they communicate with her when she was with you?
Mrs. PAINE. No; my impression is they were already out of the country.
Mr. JENNER. Was there any mail received or delivered to your home during this period for her?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I don't think so. It is possible that Lee wrote once. I think it is more likely she wrote him.
Mr. JENNER. In the household goods and paraphernalia transferred to your house, were there any books, pamphlets, literature?
Mrs. PAINE. I didn't see any.
Mr. JENNER. You did not see any?
Mrs. PAINE. I did not.
Mr. McCLOY. Did you ever engage in any discussion or dialectics with Lee about the respective merits of the capitalist system or the Soviet system? Did you engage in any debates with him on political philosophy?
Mrs. PAINE. I once listened to such a debate between Lee and my husband, in October.
Mr. DULLES. You kept out of the debate?
Mrs. PAINE. I tried hard. I felt it was not going anywhere, and that he was not a man that could be approached by logic, and that there was no point to arguing with him. I disagreed with him quite strongly, and I didn't see how it would help in any way to say so, or to try to change certainly it would not have helped to try to change his views. He, for instance, was of the opinion that all churches were an arm of the state, intent upon blinding the people. I thought his thinking was extremely erroneous, and not open to introduction of other facts, anything contradictory to his own view.
Mr. McCLOY. Did he become intemperate in argument?
Mrs. PAINE. No; he did not.
Mr. McCLOY. But in the course of his discussions with your husband, did he assert adherence to the element of violence as a factor--
Mrs. PAINE. Michael tells me he did. I didn't hear that particular discussion.
Representative FORD. In response to Mr. McCloy, you told of this argument that your husband and Lee Oswald had. You said it was October. This is October 1963?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
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Mr. McCLOY. Do you have any more questions? We are going to resume in the morning at 9 o'clock.
The CHAIRMAN. Will you be here?
Mr. McCLOY. Yes; I will be here.
The CHAIRMAN. Then you continue to preside throughout her testimony. I will be here, though.
Mr. DULLES. I have no questions.
Mr. McCLOY. Do you want to close?
Mr. JENNER. I would just as soon adjourn now, if it suits your convenience.
Mr. McCLOY. All right. We will excuse you. Thank you for your cooperation.
(Whereupon, at 5:20 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)
Thursday, March 19, 1964
TESTIMONY OF RUTH HYDE PAINE RESUMED
The President's Commission met at 9:05 a.m. on March 19, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C.
Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Senator John Sherman Cooper, Representative Hale Boggs, Representative Gerald R. Ford, John J. McCloy, and Allen W. Dulles, members.
Also present were Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel; and Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel.
Mr. McCLOY. Mrs. Paine, I must remind you that you are still under affirmation. We don't take a new affirmation with each hearing.
Mr. JENNER. We had concluded. if you recall, the 15-day period in May that Mrs. Oswald resided at the home of Mrs. Paine.
Would you please describe for us the items of household furniture, or whatever the articles were, that were packed in your station wagon when you took Mrs. Oswald to New Orleans?
Mrs. PAINE. We packed in a play pen and crib. I recall a stroller, some kitchen utensils, and personal clothing for herself and the baby.
Mr. JENNER. Was there any luggage of any character?
Mrs. PAINE. There may have been a small suitcase but I don't recall it specifically.
Mr. JENNER. You do not?
Mrs. PAINE. I am just guessing.
Mr. JENNER. As I recall you have told us yesterday that when you arrived in New Orleans, you went by the Murrets' home first?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. And then from the Murrets' home to the apartment at, what was that address on Magazine Street?
Mrs. PAINE. 4907.
Mr. JENNER. That was 4907 rather than 4905.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, there has been a touch of testimony, at least of the possibility that Mr. Oswald may have dry-fired or dry-sighted any rifle in the courtyard or garden space at 4907?
Would you be good, enough to draw for us free hand the layout, at least the ground layout of the 4907 premises on Magazine Street in New Orleans?
Mrs. PAINE. Now, shall I describe this?
Mr. JENNER. Could I first show the diagram. I have marked the diagram the witness has drawn as Commission Exhibit No. 403.
(The diagram referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 403 for identification.)
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Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, might it be helpful and permissible if I had the witness stand to your rear and point to the diagram so that you might follow her testimony?
Mr. McCLOY. Very well.
Mrs. PAINE. This street is Magazine Street; it is a corner house.
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, Mrs. Paine, left on your plot is east and west and up and down. are north and south?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; that is the way I recall it. This is a corner house and there was room enough--
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, I have to keep the record. You are referring now to a square on the right-hand margin of your outline.
Mrs. PAINE. Between this house, and the courtyard and house where the Oswalds were staying, there was room enough to drive a car.
Mr. JENNER. Have you marked the courtyard with that word?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Now, you have written "courtyard" in the sort of an "L" shaped space that you have indicated on the plot, is that right?
Mrs. PAINE. This is a square space cut by a walk.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mrs. PAINE. This was a low fence.
Mr. JENNER. When you say this, it does not help us on the record; what is this to which you have pointed--you have written something across it?
Mrs. PAINE. Around this courtyard and in front of the house was a low metal picket fence.
Mr. JENNER. That you have so designated?
Mrs. PAINE. Correct.
Mr. JENNER. Thank you.
Mrs. PAINE. There was grass within this small courtyard or walk, step--
Mr. JENNER. Which you have also marked "walk"?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. Steps going up.
Mr. JENNER. Which you have likewise so marked?
Mrs. PAINE. To a screened porch.
Mr. JENNER. Likewise so marked?
Mrs. PAINE. And then the doorway from the porch goes into the living room.
Mr. JENNER. And the living room is marked "Living room." Would you use those name and those designations as you testify?
Mrs. PAINE. All right.
Mr. JENNER. Now, would you please indicate the courtyard or square or oblong portion you have marked, rectangular portion, that was open space, was it, it was not roofed?
Mrs. PAINE. It was fully open.
Mr. JENNER. It was fully open, and it faced out on Magazine Street?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. And was there open space to the east, that would be toward the building, which you have merely designated as an empty square?
Mrs. PAINE. I will write in here "driveway ;" this was open here as a driveway.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, is that what you have now marked a building, a dwelling?
Mrs. PAINE. It was a dwelling.
Mr. JENNER. Were there dwellings to the south of Magazine Street and on the opposite side of the street?
Mrs. PAINE. That so far as I recall, that is my best recollection.
Mr. JENNER. What was to the east in the way of dwellings or buildings?
Mrs. PAINE. The rest of the house; they lived in a portion; entered from the side door of a large house; I assume it was once a one-family dwelling.
Mr. JENNER. Then for our purpose here as far as the courtyard is concerned on the east it was--there was a walk?
Mrs. PAINE. A building.
Mr. JENNER. West, I am sorry. On the west line of the courtyard there was a walk?
Mrs. PAINE. Right.
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Mr. JENNER. On the north of the courtyard there was the screened porch and to the east, but with intervening driveway there was a dwelling house?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Then the courtyard was open on Magazine Street?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Does your recollection serve you that anybody standing in the courtyard and dry-sighting a rifle would be visible to people who just happened by, or who would be looking out a window on the south side of Magazine Street, or in the home or in the dwelling house to the east of the courtyard?
Mrs. PAINE. He would have been very visible. Would have collected a clutch of small boys.
Mr. JENNER. This was a neighborhood, then, in which there were small children?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Was it a reasonably busy street?
Mrs. PAINE. Very busy street.
Mr. JENNER. What were the days of the week that you were there when you returned, when you brought Mrs. Oswald to New Orleans?
Mrs. PAINE. When we first went down, we arrived on Saturday, I was there Sunday and Monday and left Tuesday morning.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Does your recollection serve so that you can state that the days you were there you observed during the daytime, at least many or a reasonable number of small children and mothers and fathers, in and about the neighborhood?
Mrs. PAINE. A good many small children and adults.
Mr. JENNER. Was that likewise true when you returned in September about which you will testify in a few moments?
Mrs. PAINE. That was certainly true in September.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, I offer in evidence as Commission Exhibit No. 403, a plot which Mrs. Paine has just drawn and which is so marked.
Mr. McCLOY. So received.
(The diagram referred to heretofore, marked Commission Exhibit No. 403 for identification, was received in evidence.)
(At this point, Mr. Dulles entered the hearing room.)
Mr. JENNER. Was the dwelling in which the Oswalds were residing, 4907 Magazine Street, a single level or a double level house?
Mrs. PAINE. It was all on the ground floor.
Mr. JENNER. It Was a one-story house, one story high?
Mrs. PAINE. It was a segment of a house that probably had two stories to it. I don't recall. But the segment they had was all on one level.
Mr. JENNER. And that was the ground level?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Directing your attention to Exhibit No. 403, and Mr. Dulles, would you favor me by handing her the exhibit, and with particular reference to the screen porch, the screen porch likewise opened up on Magazine Street, did it?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, it was set back a short space from the street, but the door opened up toward Magazine.
Mr. JENNER. The screened portion, that is, that faced on Magazine Street?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. If anyone were on the screen porch, let us say, dry-sighting a rifle or some other firearm, would he be, would that person be observable from Magazine Street, and from the east?
Mrs. PAINE. I doubt he would have been noticed from Magazine Street--A small boy passing in the driveway could have looked through the screen, up to the
Mr. JENNER. That is to the east?
Mrs. PAINE. I will mark "screen" on the south and east side so you know it is screened on both sides.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall for certainty but there may have been a kind of
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shade that could have been put down. It was not when I was there, down, but there may have been some means of--
Mr. JENNER. Lattice shade?
Mrs. PAINE. Putting down a lattice blind.
Mr. JENNER. A blind or something?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Of course, if the blind were down no one could see it. Did you have occasion when you were there, Mrs. Paine, on either of your two trips to be on the screen porch?
Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes.
Mr. JENNER. And looking out?
Mrs. PAINE.
Mr. JENNER. And was there any impediment to your view?
Mrs. PAINE. No, I could see the street very well.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have occasion there on either of those occasions to be out in the courtyard or on the street to be looking into the porch area.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did.
Mr. JENNER. Could you see the persons, from the courtyard, could you see persons behind the screen?
Mrs. PAINE. From the courtyard you could see persons behind the screen.
Mr. JENNER. Do I take it then by your emphasis on courtyard, do you mean by that if you were on Magazine Street itself, that is the sidewalk in front of the home it would be difficult to see in?
Mrs. PAINE. Looking directly in you would notice someone but just passing by you would not have been apt to see them.
Mr. JENNER. But if you looked directly you could see in on the porch?
Mrs. PAINE. I think so; yes.
Mr. JENNER. You mentioned yesterday a series of letters and correspondence and you spent some time with me last night and we went over all that, do you recall?
Mrs. PAINE Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have your summary we worked with last night at hand to assist you?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I do.
Mr. JENNER. Would you mind taking that out, please?
You mentioned yesterday in your testimony a note that you had sent to Marina Oswald shortly after your initial acquaintance with her in February of 1963. Did you receive a response to that note?
Mrs. PAINE. I did; and I have that response.
Mr. JENNER. I have here a document which we will mark as Commission Exhibit No. 404, including its envelope as 404A.
Is that the document or note you received from Mrs. Oswald and the envelope?
(The document and envelope referred to were marked Commission Exhibits
Nos. 404 and 404A, respectively, for identification.)
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is.
Mr. JENNER. Did that reach you in the ordinary course of its posting by mail?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Are you familiar with the handwriting of Marina Oswald?
Mrs. PAINE. I am now.
Mr. JENNER. Is that--do you identify the handwriting in that document 404?
Mrs. PAINE. That is her handwriting.
Mr. JENNER. That is hers.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And is it in the same condition now as it was when you received it?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is.
Mr. JENNER. And that is her response to your note?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER I offer in evidence as Exhibit No. 404 the document now so marked.
Mr. McCLOY. It may be admitted.
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(The letter and envelope referred to, heretofore marked for identification as Commission Exhibits Nos. 404 and 404-A, were received in evidence.)
Mr. JENNER. Now, that is in what language?
Mrs. PAINE. That is in Russian. Except for the address on the outside.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Have you made a translation of that note?
Mrs PAINE. I have.
Mr. JENNER. And is it the translation on the notes that you exhibited to me last night which we have marked as No. 1?
Mrs. PAINE. It is.
Mr. JENNER. May I inquire, Mr. Chairman, if you would prefer that I read the translation in evidence or may we have it?
Mr. McCLOY. It is a short note?
Mr. JENNER. It is a short note. Others are a little longer, however, and if I have your permission, to save you time, I would read that into the record during the noon recess or something of that character.
Mr. McCLOY. Very well.
Mr. JENNER. Is that acceptable.
Now, did you thereafter--you wrote Mrs. Oswald at or about that time in response to that note of yours, did you not?
Mrs. PAINE. No. Let's see I don't recall whether I did or not or whether I arrived on the Tuesday that she had suggested.
Mr. JENNER. I have a little difficulty in handling these, Mr. Chairman, because they are in Russian, and I don't immediately have a vision of it.
(At this point, Representative Ford entered the hearing room.)
Mr. JENNER. I am handing you a document which I have numbered as No. 2. Would you locate that for me on your summary?
Mrs. PAINE. I have it.
Mr. JENNER. Is that the second page?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. That note also in Russian but in whose handwriting?
Mrs. PAINE. In my handwriting.
Mr. JENNER. And that is a draft, I take it, of a letter or note that you transmitted to Mrs. Oswald.
Would you identify in your sheaf of notes the point at which you made a translation of that note?
Mrs. PAINE. When did I make a translation of it? I didn't understand your question.
Mr. JENNER. Would you point out in your notes the translation of the document? Is that the center of the page on page 2?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Is the document which I will have marked as Commission Exhibit No. 405 in your handwriting?
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 405 for identification.)
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is.
Mr. JENNER. Is it in the same condition now as it was when you completed it?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; being, of course, a rough draft of what I sent and not what I sent.
Mr. JENNER. You do not have the original of that because you sent it to Marina Oswald, is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. But it does represent your present best recollection of the note as you transmitted it to her?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right. This note is without a date. Shall I give my recollection of when I think it was written?
Mr. JENNER. Yes; please.
Mrs. PAINE. I think it was written in March and referred to--it closes, "Until the 20th." I believe that referred to Wednesday, March 20, which is what appears here with the name Marina.
Mr. JENNER. Which is what you testified to yesterday, and when you say "appears here" you meant Exhibit 401?
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Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. I offer in evidence the original document which has now been identified as Commission Exhibit No. 405.
Mr. McCLOY. It may be admitted.
(The document referred to heretofore marked Commission Exhibit No. 405 for identification, was received in evidence.)
Mr. JENNER. I will read the translation in the record during the noon recess. You shortly transmitted another letter of your own to Mrs. Oswald, did you not?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And I have here a document which I have marked Commission Exhibit No. 406. Is this a draft of the letter in your handwriting?
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 406 for identification.)
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is.
Mr. JENNER. And did you shortly after the completion of that draft retranscribe it and transmit the letter to Marina Oswald?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Have you made a translation of that letter?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I have.
Mr. JENNER. Is the draft of that document in the same condition now as it was when you completed it?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Where is that document transcribed on your notes?
Mrs. PAINE. That is at the top of page 2.
Mr. JENNER. That is what we call No. 3, is it not?
Mrs. PAINE. And dated March 26.
Mr. JENNER. This, Mr. Chairman, is her note to which she testified yesterday was an invitation to the Oswalds to dinner at her home on April 2.
Mrs. PAINE. It appears--the following invitation is a full explanation of it. I believe I had made the explanation in person. This letter was to say that Michael would come and pick them up.
Mr. JENNER. This was confirmation of your original invitation?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; this was that Michael could pick them up.
Mr. JENNER. I offer in evidence a document marked Commission Exhibit No. 406.
Mr. McCLOY. It may be admitted.
(The document referred to, heretofore marked Commission Exhibit No. 406 for identification, was received in evidence.)
Mr. JENNER. Did you receive from Marina herself a note with respect to your invitation to have her and her husband join you?
Mrs. PAINE. I have a note which I take to be a reply to that invitation, saying that that date, Tuesday, would be fine.
Mr. JENNER. And I hand you Commission Document No. 407. Is that the note you received from Marina Oswald?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 407 for identification.)
Mr. JENNER. Have you made--is it in the same condition now as it was when you received it?
Mrs. PAINE. I have no envelope anymore. I don't know what happened to it.
Mr. JENNER. Is the note itself in the same condition as it was at the time you received it?
Mrs. PAINE. No. I have written on it in my hand to help me understand the meaning of it, some pen notations, translation of the Russian words.
Mr. JENNER. I am interested in that, Mrs. Paine.
Did you also--are there some additions in your handwriting on the first page of the note?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, marked one, two, three, four and clearly taken from a dictionary.
Mr. JENNER. Why did you do that?
Mrs. PAINE. To explain to myself the meaning of these particular words. I had to look them up.
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Mr. JENNER. Is it a fair statement, Mrs. Paine, that your command of the Russian language was not facile enough for you to read the total letter freehand, as soon as you received it, but you wrote on the letter definitions of words and of phrases to assist you in interpreting it?
Mrs. PAINE. That is a fair statement.
Mr. JENNER. Were all the notations you have now identified placed by you on that letter shortly after you received it, or in the course of your effort to interpret it?
Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Now, save for those additions of yours, is the document in the same condition now as it was when you received it?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And is it otherwise in the same condition as it was when you placed those notes on it? In other words, there have been no notes of your own placed on the document subsequent to, at, or about the time you received it when you were attempting to interpret it?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, you first said, or when I was translating it.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. PAINE. I translated it immediately for myself at the time, and then when I made a written translation I made a more careful one so that some of these notes were done a week ago.
Mr. JENNER. That is what I was getting at.
Would you please, for the Commission identify the particular notes that you placed on there at the time you were seeking to interpret it when you first received it, and the notes you placed on there about a week ago, and indicate the pages.
Mrs. PAINE. I can easily answer that.
There is only one that was placed more recently. That is an underline on the inside.
Mr. JENNER. Right-hand inside page?
Mrs. PAINE. Right-hand side.
Mr. JENNER. Is it merely an underlining?
Mrs. PAINE. Underline and a question mark.
Mr. JENNER. And would you interpret that for us, please?
Mrs. PAINE. I couldn't read her handwriting, but later realized the word to be "if."
Mr. JENNER. When you were seeking to interpret it a week ago to translate it, you placed a question mark over that word because you couldn't quite figure it out?
Mrs. PAINE. And then later realized what it was.
Mr. JENNER. As being the word "if"?
Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Other than that, Mrs. Paine, is the document in the condition it was when you received it and when you initially placed notations on it?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recognize that handwriting?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, that is Marina Oswald's handwriting.
Mr. JENNER. Have you made a translation for the Commission of that letter?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I have.
Mr. JENNER. And that appears in your notes at page what?
Mrs. PAINE. The first page at the bottom.
Mr. JENNER. Which I have marked No. 4, I believe, is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE. Beginning "For Ruth and Michael Paine."
Mr. JENNER. Does you interpretation or translation of the letter represent your impressions of the letter when you read it?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And that is true, is it, of the other translations which we will introduce through you today? Is that true of all your translations?
Mrs. PAINE. I am not sure of what you are inquiring.
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Mr. JENNER. What I am inquiring about, others--as you related to me last night--other persons with the command of the Russian language.
Mrs. PAINE. I had no help with the translations.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Other persons with their command of the Russian language might read one of Marina's letters and have at least, as to some words, an interpretation different from yours. What I am saying--
Mrs. PAINE. In a minor regard, yes.
Mr. JENNER. It may be?
Mrs. PAINE. But I believe the meaning would have been the same.
Mr. JENNER. But it is important to get your impressions, Mrs. Paine, of Marina's letters to you, despite what interpretations some other people might give to the same letter, and what I am seeking to emphasize is whether your translations are your impressions of those letters?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; but they are good translations.
Mr. JENNER. I don't mean to question that. We seek the impact of these notes upon you.
Mrs. PAINE. I see. This is exactly what I understood them to mean, of course.
Mr. JENNER. That is fine.
Now, you received in May or on or about May, or shortly after May 25, 1963, another note from Marina Oswald, did you not?
Mrs. PAINE. This was postmarked May 25.
Mr. JENNER. After you had taken her to New Orleans?
Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. This was the first letter I received from her from New Orleans.
Mr. JENNER. And you have kindly produced the original of that letter for the Commission, have you not?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is.
Mr. JENNER. I am sorry, I have to have your answer aloud or I can't get it on the record.
The document you have produced is marked Commission Exhibit 408.
Do you recognize the handwriting of that note and of that envelope?
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 408 for identification.)
Mrs. PAINE. This is the handwriting of Marina Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. Both documents?
Mrs. PAINE. On both.
Mr. JENNER. Did you receive--that is a letter, is it not?
Mrs. PAINE. That is a letter.
Mr. JENNER. Did you receive it?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did.
Mr. JENNER. Is it on or about, did you receive it on or about the date it is postmarked?
Mrs. PAINE. Shortly after, I would guess.
Mr. JENNER. I can see some handwriting written horizontally on the back of the envelope, is that handwriting yours or Marina's?
Mrs. PAINE. That is mine.
Mr. JENNER. When did you place that handwriting on the reverse side?
Mrs. PAINE. When I first read the letter and sought to understand it.
Mr. JENNER. I see.
And those notations are in Russian or in English?
Mrs. PAINE. A word is given in Russian followed by a translation in English.
Mr. JENNER. As in the case of one of the earlier exhibits, did you place those notations on the reverse side of the envelope at the time you received the letter in the course of your attempting to interpret the letter?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did.
Mr. JENNER. And those notations were in the course of your doing that. Except for the notations on the reverse side of the envelope, is the letter and is the envelope, each in the same condition now as when you received it?
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Mrs. PAINE. No; I have made a few underlinings.
Mr. JENNER. Would you identify any additions you placed on the original document, indicating the page, front or reverse side?
Mrs. PAINE. I have marked "bind".
Mr. JENNER Is that b-i-n-d?
Mrs. PAINE. Over one word.
Mr. JENNER. Have you written the word "bind"? Is that what you mean?
Mrs. PAINE. B-i-n-d.
Mr. JENNER. And that is an interpretation, I take it of a word written in Russian underneath it.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And that word then to you in English was "bind", b-i-n-d.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Anything else?
Mrs. PAINE. I have written the word "thaw" and crossed it out; that was wrong.
Mr. JENNER. Meaning what, Mrs. Paine?
Mrs. PAINE. I had the wrong translation for that word. I realized it later.
Mr. JENNER. What was the word rather than--
Mrs. PAINE. The meaning was "insists"; the rest of the markings by me are underlinings.
Mr. JENNER. I will cover those by asking you this. Were there any underlinings on the letter placed there by Marina Oswald at the time you received the letter.
Mrs. PAINE. Only one, under this word here.
Mr. JENNER. That is on the reverse side of the second page of the letter?
Mrs. PAINE. It is on the last page. The second page; yes.
Mr. JENNER. It is the reverse side of the second sheet of paper?
Mrs. PAINE. Right.
Mr. JENNER And it looks to help from her as though it is an arrow, is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE. There is an underline 'and then from the underlined word is an arrow.
Mr. JENNER. I offer in evidence as Commission Exhibits Nos. 407 and 408 the documents now so marked and identified by the witness.
Mr. McCLOY. They may be admitted.
(The documents referred to, heretofore marked for identification as Commission Exhibits Nos. 407 and 408, were received in evidence.)
Mr. JENNER. Would you retain that for a moment, please?
Mr. DULLES. May I ask, is the envelope 408A attached?
Mr. JENNER. Yes; and in the case of the earlier exhibit the envelope--
Mrs. PAINE. It is only the second envelope we have had.
Mr. JENNER. The envelope accompanying Exhibit 404 was marked 404A, and the envelope now accompanying 408 is marked 408A.
Mr. McCLOY. Is it so marked now?
Mr. DULLES. Do you wish me to mark it?
(The envelope was marked Commission Exhibit 408A for identification and received in evidence.)
Mr. JENNER. Have you supplied the Commission, Mrs. Paine, with your translation of that letter?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, I have.
Mr. JENNER. And your interpretation and the effect or the impression that you had of that letter when you received it and as you read it?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, turning to the first page, I would like to direct attention--
Mr. DULLES. Do you wish this back?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I will look at the translation.
Mr. JENNER. She has supplied me with an interpretation. In the first paragraph it reads and I quote, and you follow me, please. I will read the whole paragraph:
"Here it is already a week since I received your letter. I can't produce any excuses as there are no valid reasons. I am ashamed to confess that I am a
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person of moods and my mood currently is such that I don't feel much like anything. As soon as you left all love stopped and I am very hurt that Lee's attitude toward me is such that I feel each minute that I bind him. He insists that I leave America which I don't want to do at all. I like America very much and I think that even without Lee I would not be lost here. What do you think?
Had you had any discussion with Marina when you were in New Orleans on the subject matters which I have just read to you from the first Paragraph of her letter, Commission Exhibit No. 408?
Mrs. PAINE. There was no such discussion in New Orleans.
Mr. JENNER. What impact did this have on you, Mrs. Paine, when you received this letter and read that first paragraph?
Mrs. PAINE. It was a repetition, or similar to something she had told me late in March, which I have already put on the record yesterday, saying basically that he wanted her to go back, wanted to send her back to the Soviet Union.
Mr. JENNER. And to send her back alone, is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE. That was the impression I carried.
Mr. JENNER. Was there ever any occasion, during all your acquaintance with the Oswalds, when there was any suggestion or implication that if she returned
to Russia, at his request, that he would accompany her?
Mrs. PAINE. There was no such suggestion.
Mr. JENNER. Was it always that she was to go to Russia alone?
Mrs. PAINE. As she described it, it carried from her the feeling that she was being sent away.
Mr. JENNER. What about the little child, June?
Mrs. PAINE. June with her.
Mr. JENNER. Was to accompany her to Russia. Now, the second paragraph, if I may: "This is the basic question which doesn't leave me day or night. And again Lee has said to me that he doesn't love me. So you see we came to mistaken conclusions. It is hard for you and me to live without a return of our love interest gone. How would it all end?"
Had there been discussions between you and Marina Oswald on the subject of whether or not her husband had love for her, and in that area?
Mrs. PAINE. What I particularly recall is what I mentioned yesterday, when he telephoned her and said he had found a job and wanted her to come.
Mr. JENNER. This was just before going to New Orleans?
Mrs. PAINE. Just before going to New Orleans.
Mr. JENNER. In the spring?
Mrs. PAINE. Right. She said "Papa loves us," as I have testified. She had wondered to me during the 2 weeks previous whether he did, whether she loved him. But was clearly elated by his call and gradually came to her own conclusions. Really, I had no ground upon which to make a conclusion.
Mr. DULLES. She was speaking in Russian then to you?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, were you impressed that this paragraph, however, was not consistent with her immediate response at the time that telephone call had been made to her?
Mrs. PAINE. It showed me there was not as much change as she had hoped.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have any discussion with her on this subject when you were in New Orleans, and when you took her or when you were taking her from Irving, Tex., to New Orleans?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. None whatsoever. When you were in New Orleans, Mrs. Paine, did you tour any night clubs?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Did you or Marina ever evidence any interest in touring Bourbon Street, for example?
Mrs. PAINE. You are talking about the spring visit?
Mr. JENNER. Yes; I am.
Mrs. PAINE. We went to the French Quarter during the day.
Mr. JENNER. Please identify whom you include when you say "we."
Mrs. PAINE. Lee, Marina I, and three children.
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Mr. JENNER. Did all of you, including Lee, go to the French Quarter?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; we did.
Mr. JENNER. Did you tour the Bourbon Street areas, Royal Street, and the other areas?
Mrs. PAINE. No; we did not.
Mr. JENNER. Will you tell us without any length--you did not. This was a tourist visit of the French Quarter, is that right?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. In the day?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. With the children?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Was anything said during the course of that tourist visit about visiting Bourbon Street at night rather than in the daytime?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall that there was anything said.
Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion about Lee Oswald visiting or frequenting night clubs?
Mrs. PAINE. None.
Mr. JENNER. Either in Dallas, or in New Orleans or in Irving, Tex.?
Mrs. PAINE. None; at any time.
Mr. JENNER. Did any one of you tour Bourbon Street at night during that spring visit?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Any discussion of the subject?
Mrs. PAINE. Not to my recollection.
Mr. JENNER. Was there a subsequent occasion when you did visit Bourbon Street at night?
Mrs. PAINE. In September, when I visited again in New Orleans. Shall I tell that?
Mr. JENNER. Yes; please, because there is a measure of contrast to that I would like to bring out.
Mrs. PAINE. Marina and I and our three small children went down in the early evening and walked along the street.
Mr. JENNER. Would you tell us how that came about, whether Lee Oswald accompanied you?
Mrs. PAINE. He did not accompany us. He was asked if he wanted to go, and he said he did not. Marina was interested in my seeing Bourbon Street at night simply as a tourist attraction.
Mr. JENNER. And you two girls took your children?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did she take June?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You two girls walked down Bourbon Street?
Mrs. PAINE. And one of us very pregnant.
Mr. JENNER. And observed everything from the outside. You didn't go inside any night clubs?
Mrs. PAINE. No. In fact, when I realized we weren't permitted, we went on.
Mr. JENNER. You had small children?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion with Mr. Oswald at that time or with Marina which led you to form a judgment as to whether he was a man who might or would, or had frequented night clubs?
Mrs. PAINE. I judged he was not such a person.
Mr. JENNER. In all your experiences with the Oswalds from February, sometime in February 1963, even to the present date, had any mention been made of Lee Oswald frequenting night clubs?
Mrs. PAINE. None.
Mr. JENNER. Or of Marina at any time?
Mrs. PAINE. No mention of her.
Mr. DULLES. Did you get the impression when you made this trip that Marina had previously made the trip herself, that she seemed to know the surroundings?
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Mrs. PAINE. This occurs in the next paragraph of the letter she wrote in May, so I knew she had been herself.
Mr. DULLES. She had been there before?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. From the letter I judge with Lee accompanying her.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, if you will pardon me. Mr. Reporter, will you read the question?
(Question read.)
Mr. JENNER. Would you answer just that question?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. McCLOY. She did answer
Mr. JENNER. I didn't think she did.
Mr. DULLES. I think she said "yes."
Mr. JENNER. Now the letter of May 25th to you does make reference to visits
to the French Quarter, is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Gentlemen of the Commission, that portion of the letter reads as follows:
"Now a bit about the impressions I have received this week. Last Saturday we went to Aunt Lillian's"--Aunt Lillian, Mrs. Paine, is Lee Oswald's aunt?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Murret?
Mrs. PAINE. Mrs. Murret.
Mr. JENNER. "And leaving June with her we are at the lake. Lee wanted to catch crabs but caught nothing. I have a very high opinion of his relatives." By the way, what was your opinion of his relatives?
Mrs. PAINE. I met them only once. I thought them to be very nice.
Mr. JENNER. "Straightforward and kind people. To me they are very attentive. I like them. We have been to the French Quarter in the evening. It is a shame you didn't manage to get there in the evening. For me it was especially interesting as it was the first time in my life I had seen such. There were many night clubs there. Through the open doors were visible barrel covered dancing girls (so as not to say entirely unclothed). Most of them had really very pretty, rare figures and if one doesn't think about too many things then one can like them very much. There were a great many tourists there. For the most part very rich. We have been to the near park again."
That is all of that paragraph dealing with the nightclubs. Now, did you ever know a man or person by the name of Jack Rubinstein or Jack Ruby?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Prior to November 24, 1963?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER Did you ever hear of any such individual?
Mrs. PAINE. No, I did not.
Mr. JENNER. Had you frequented a nightclub in Irving or in Dallas prior to November 24, 1963?
Mrs. PAINE. Not at any time. In either town.
Mr. JENNER. You and your husband Michael were not in the habit of visiting, frequenting nightclubs?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. It is a fact, is it not, Mrs. Paine that neither you nor Mr. Paine attended nightclubs at all?
Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Is this true prior to your moving to Irving?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Was there anything that occurred during all these months of your acquaintance with the Oswalds that did or might have led you to any opinion as to Lee's frequenting of 'nightclubs or his acquaintance with night-clubs or his being intimate with nightclub people?
Mrs. PAINE. During the entire time, is that your question?
Mr. JENNER. Yes. Let us end the day for you for this purpose at November 22, 1963?
Mrs. PAINE. He was, I would say, actively disinterested in going down to Bourbon Street in the last weekend in September.
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Mr. JENNER. But even prior to that time?
Mrs. PAINE. It was the 21st.
Mr. JENNER. Had anything occurred by Way of a remark at all that made an impression on you in the area of his being acquainted possibly with any nightclub people, any entertainers?
Mrs. PAINE. There had been no hint of any sort that he was acquainted with nightclub people?
Mr. McCLOY. Whether in Dallas, New Orleans or Irving?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right. Of course, I had not talked to him a great deal up to the New Orleans trip. Then after that time there was also no hint or mention of any nightclub people. After that time in New Orleans he did refuse table wine at my home, so I got the impression of him as a person who didn't like to drink.
Mr. JENNER. During all your acquaintance with Lee Harvey Oswald, did you ever see him take a drink of spirits, intoxicating spirits?
Mrs. PAINE. It is possible he had beer at the initial party on the 22d of February, that is as far as I can remember.
Mr. JENNER. What impression did you have of him as a man of temperance?
Mrs. PAINE. He teased Marina about liking wine as if it displeased him mildly.
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, Mrs. Paine. You are talking in terms of conclusions which is all right with me if you will give me the specifics also. Could you give us an example or an occasion of what you have in mind?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, at the same occasion when he refused the wine, she had--
Mr. JENNER. I see. Did he say something that led you to say he was teasing her.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Would you describe what that was?
Mrs. PAINE. Indicating a mild disapproval.
Mr. JENNER. Would you please relate to the Commission your impression of Marina Oswald as a temperate person?
Mrs. PAINE. She did not like liquors.
Mr. JENNER. What we would call hard liquor?
Mrs. PAINE. Strong spirits.
Mr. JENNER. Strong spirits.
Mrs. PAINE. But she did drink beer at my home, and did occasionally have wine.
Mr. JENNER. She occasionally had a bit of wine and she occasionally had some beer.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Is that the extent of, as far as your personal knowledge is concerned, her indulgence in intoxicating spirits?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Does that likewise describe your indulgence or do you---
Mrs. PAINE. I would also drink a cocktail on occasion.
Mr. JENNER. But very limited and just an occasional drink?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Is that likewise true of your husband, Michael?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Representative FORD. Did Marina ever drink to excess?
Mrs. PAINE. Certainly not that I ever heard about or saw.
Mr. JENNER. Not that you ever heard about or that you saw?
Mrs. PAINE. Or saw.
Mr. JENNER. From your testimony that is certainly true with Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mrs. PAINE. It is certainly true of him also.
Mr. JENNER. As far as you are concerned?
Mrs. PAINE. As far as I am concerned.
Mr. JENNER. Now, I think you testified yesterday that Marina would assist you in your becoming more proficient in the Russian language by returning
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letters that you had written her, upon which she would place her comments of instruction or criticism or suggestion?
Mrs. PAINE. Before she left for New Orleans in May, she offered to correct and send back any letters I wrote to her. In the correspondence which included some four letters with her altogether, there was only one of mine that was actually corrected and sent back and you have that.
Mr. JENNER. I have marked a three-page document as Commission Exhibit 409, and the envelope as Commission Exhibit 409A, the envelope being postmarked at New Orleans on June 6, 1963, and being addressed to Mrs. Ruth Paine.
Mrs. PAINE. Do you want to make a separate designation for my return letter? You are looking at the letter which accompanied her letter.
Mr. JENNER. That document I will mark as Commission Exhibit---- may I have permission, Mr. Chairman, to mark this document in my own hand because the sticker, I am afraid, will obliterate some of the letter.
Mr. McCLOY. You may.
Mr. JENNER. I will mark this as 409B.
Now, Mrs. Paine, would you be good enough to identify 409, 409A, and 409B, the sequence in which they passed back and forth between you and Mrs. Oswald?
Mrs. PAINE. It includes, No. 409 is my letter to her dated the 1st of June, which she--
Mr. JENNER. 1963?
Mrs. PAINE. 1963.
Mr. JENNER. Is that document, or do you recognize the handwriting on that document?
Mrs. PAINE. That is my hand.
Mr. JENNER. Would you turn to the reverse side of the second page, third page. I see there is something on that in red crayon.
Mrs. PAINE. All the red marks and the little bit in ballpoint pen are made by her.
Mr. JENNER. That is what I was seeking to bring out.
Mrs. PAINE. At the end it includes a note of comments.
Mr. JENNER. Now, Mrs. Paine, the portion of the letter in blue ink in longhand is in whose handwriting?
Mrs. PAINE. In my handwriting.
Mr. JENNER. And the portion of the letter in red crayon on the reverse side
of the third page is in whose handwriting?
Mrs. PAINE. Is in her handwriting.
Mr. JENNER. On the first page is there any of her handwriting?
Mrs. PAINE. On the first page in blue ink, ballpoint pen there is some handwriting which is hers at the top.
Mr. JENNER. Those are notations in between the lines or in the margin?
Mrs. PAINE. Above my writing. Yes; sir.
Mr. JENNER. They are comments of hers on your letter?
Mrs. PAINE. And my spelling.
Mr. JENNER. Of your spelling?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Do any of those markings appear other than on the face of the first sheet?
Mrs. PAINE. In blue ink you are asking?
Mr. JENNER. Yes, I am.
Mrs. PAINE. No. The rest is all in red.
Mr. JENNER. That then was a letter that you had sent to her?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Was it returned to you?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did some document which you now have before you accompany the letter on its return?
Mrs. PAINE. Her letter dated June 5th.
Mr. JENNER. Which has been marked Commission Exhibit 409B?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you do recognize that handwriting as having been hers?
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Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I do.
Mr. JENNER. Of the two documents you have now identified, 409 and 409B, were they enclosed in an envelope?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; they were.
Mr. JENNER. Is that envelope before you?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. It is marked Commission Exhibit 409A?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Are all those conditions of documents in the condition which they were in when you received them?
Mrs. PAINE. I have again added in my hand on her letter.
Mr. JENNER. That is 409B?
Mrs. PAINE. Translations of certain of the words.
Mr. JENNER. Would you please, for the purpose of the record, identify what your handwriting is, on the letter 409B.
Mrs. PAINE. It is above her words. Most of it is in English.
Mr. JENNER. That is in your hand?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Other than that, are the documents in the condition they were
when you received them?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. There is one interesting thing to me, Mrs. Paine, to which I would like to draw the attention of the Commission. And I direct your attention in this respect to Exhibits 404, 404A, 408, 408A, 409, and 409A. Each has an envelope addressed to you, and each is addressed written in English. Is the handwriting on each of those envelopes Marina Oswald's?
Mrs. PAINE. It is.
Mr. JENNER. She was then able to write some English, is that so?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Would you please
Mrs. PAINE. She learned her own address.
Mr. JENNER. Did her command of the use of the English language, at least from the writing standpoint, extend beyond those examples?
Mrs. PAINE. Not to my knowledge. I knew that she looked at signs and had learned the sound value of the English letters. That she looked at the Thursday supplement to the newspaper for the ads on vegetables and things with pictures on a can or something that showed the English of what it was, to try to determine what this word was and pronounce it.
Mr. JENNER. So she did acquire some command of English with respect to reading newspapers?
Mrs. PAINE. It was not my impression that she could read a newspaper. She could pick out the sound values. It was not until October that I read with her a portion from Time magazine regarding Madam Nhu, whenever that was news, she asked me to read this to her and translate it. I read it.
Mr. JENNER. Did you read it in English first?
Mrs. PAINE. I read it in English, giving translation of some of the words.
Mr. JENNER. As you went along?
Mrs. PAINE. As I went along.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mrs. PAINE. But many of the words, English words, were words she understood, because they were either similar to the Russian or because she had learned them.
I was surprised at how much she understood when I pronounced it and read it to her.
Representative FORD. In English?
Mrs. PAINE. In English. Because she was very hesitant to speak English with me, fearful that her pronunciation would not be correct. She would ask me several times, "How do I pronounce this," although she didn't think she was doing very well with the pronunciation, although she did well.
Mr. JENNER. She was sensitive in this respect, Mrs. Paine, she was hesitant to use the English language in the presence, say, of Americans or even the Russian emigre groups?
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Mrs. PAINE. I think most people are sensitive about using a language where the person they are with can understand them in the language they use better. She also talked with my immediate neighbor for a short time, when only she and the neighbor were present. I went to see about a child.
Mr. JENNER. Could your neighbor understand Russian?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. But there was a measure of communication?
Mrs. PAINE. There was some communication, not a great deal. My neighbor told me after she saw Marina on television in January, whatever it was, "that girl has learned a great deal of English." She was amazed at the change.
Representative FORD. The improvement from October to January?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. DULLES. How would you appraise her general intelligence, her level of intelligence for a girl of that age in the early twenties?
Mrs. PAINE. I think she certainly had above average intelligence.
Representative FORD. What prompted her, if you know, to ask about Madam Nhu?
Mrs. PAINE. She was interested in the family. She was worried about what Madam Nhu would do. Madam Nhu and the children still in her country. She wanted to know were these children going to come out either in Paris or the United States. She was concerned, and her concern for world affairs seemed to go this way, of what is this mother and children going to do.
Mr. JENNER Was she concerned about the conflict between the North Vietnamese and the South Vietnamese?
Mrs. PAINE. No; this didn't interest her, it didn't appear to.
Mr. JENNER. It was the human side rather than the political side?
Mrs. PAINE. Strictly that.
Mr. JENNER. Thank you; that is what I wanted to bring out. I offer in evidence, Mr. Chairman, as Exhibits with those numbers, the documents marked Commission Exhibits 409, 409-A, and 409-B.
Mr. McCLOY. It may be admitted.
(The documents referred to previously, marked Commission Exhibits Nos 409, 409-A, and 409-B, were received in evidence.)
(At this point, Representative Boggs entered the hearing room.)
Mr. JENNER. Now, Mrs. Paine, turning to this series of correspondence which has now been admitted in evidence, have you made an interpretation for the Commission of Exhibit 409-B?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I have.
Mr. JENNER. Where does that appear on your summary you furnished to me last evening?
Mrs. PAINE. That begins in the middle of page 6, marked second letter from New Orleans.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Your interpretation of the letter dealing with the night club visit of the Oswalds, you have interpreted that for the Commission and that appears on page what of your summary?
Mrs. PAINE. That appears on page 3 marked first letter from New Orleans.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Were you concerned about Mrs. Oswald, about Marina's condition and her receiving proper medical attention?
Mrs. PAINE. I was very concerned about it.
Mr. JENNER. Did you write her at any time about it?
Mrs. PAINE. I would like to refer you to my letter of June 1st which was returned in the document you just admitted in evidence.
Mr. JENNER. You did write her about it?
Mrs. PAINE. I wrote particularly in that letter to Lee.
Mr. JENNER. You wrote both Lee and Marina?
Mrs. PAINE. In this letter I addressed each, and a particular portion of that letter is in English.
Mr. JENNER. And that is Commission Exhibit No. 409?
Mrs. PAINE. That was to Lee, that particular portion.
Mr. JENNER You incorporated, did you not, in that letter, a direct communication to Lee Oswald?
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Mrs. PAINE. I say in Russian a few words to Lee now about hospital and money.
Mr. JENNER. But incorporated in your note in that letter to Lee Oswald you used the English rather than the Russian language, did you not?
Mrs. PAINE. I wanted to speak of things I couldn't say in Russian. I didn't
have the vocabulary to do it with any ease in Russian.
Mr. JENNER. I see.
Mrs. PAINE. And further I particularly wanted to tell him I thought it important she get to a doctor and have prenatal care and felt he would be the one who actually got her there. It was his concern that would produce a visit to the doctor.
Mr. JENNER. I see. That explains that portion of the letter which is Commission Exhibit No. 409.
Mrs. PAINE. 409.
Mr. JENNER. I won't go into the details, Mr. Chairman, because these are recommendations of Mrs. Paine for medical care of Marina Oswald.
Mr. McCLOY. Do I understand you are going to read all of these into the record at the noon hour?
Mr. JENNER. At the noon hour I will read all of these into the record rather than do it now. Now you, last night, Mrs Paine, suggested to me you would like to make an explanation of this series of letters, and I direct your attention to page 7 of your notes.
Mrs. PAINE. Well, the commentary on page 7 by me is--
Mr. JENNER. Refreshing your recollection from having read it, you would like to make a statement to the Commission and you may proceed to do so.
Mrs. PAINE. It doesn't refresh me enough. I could say this. That when I received 409-B, her letter, I read it through. I glanced at 409, her corrected--my letter which she had corrected, and at the note at the back which began, "You write well" and assumed this to be commentary on my letter; it was not until I sat down nearly a month later to write a proper reply to her, I read this through more carefully and found in the middle of the paragraph discussing my writing a comment by her saying, "Very likely I will have to go back to Russia after all."
Mr. JENNER. For the purpose of the record there appears the red crayon to which I earlier drew your attention on the back of page 3.
Would you read that entire notation of hers so that the Commission may now know that to which you are now directing your attention?
Mrs. PAINE. In the back of my letter she writes in red pencil, "You write well, when will I write that way in English. I think never. Very likely I will have to go back to Russia after all. A pity."
Mr. DULLES. What was the last?
Mrs. PAINE. "A pity."
Mr. JENNER. I take it when you first read that notation on the back of the third page of the letter you had not noticed the sentence, "Very likely I will have
to go to Russia after all. A pity."
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Would you proceed with your comment?
Mrs. PAINE. This was early July when I read this letter more carefully and I was shocked that I hadn't noticed this. That my poor Russian made a scanning of the letter not adequate to picking that up, and I wrote her immediately apologizing for my bad understanding, and I don't have that letter, but I have three which followed it, and--
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. Do you have a draft, have you produced for the Commission your immediate preceding draft of that letter?
Mrs. PAINE. I have no rough draft of my first letter explaining my shock and
my worry at this statement of hers.
Mr. JENNER. I see.
Mrs. PAINE. But I have rough drafts of three letters I wrote subsequently.
Mr. JENNER. Have you ever seen at any time a copy or the original of the
letter that you wrote, a draft of which you do not have?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I haven't.
Mr. JENNER. Would you please relate to the Commission your present recollection of the substance and content of that letter?
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Mrs. PAINE. Much what I have said. That I apologized that my poor Russian didn't see this immediately and I inquired after her what she was doing, and: asked to hear from her.
Mr. JENNER. You say, that sentence when you finally did read it rather shocked you. Would you rather--would you elaborate on that. statement to the Commission? Why did that shock you?
Mrs. PAINE. It seemed more final than anything else that had preceded. 'She had told me in March that he had asked her to go back that she had written to the embassy but she didn't reply to the embassy when the embassy inquired why. It looked as though she was able to just say no by not doing anything about it. But this, on the other hand, looked as if she was resigned to the necessity to go back.
Mr. JENNER. Were you aware at this time, Mrs. Paine, that Lee had applied to the State Department for a passport and had obtained one?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I was not aware of that.
Mr. JENNER. When did you first become aware of that, if you ever did?
Mrs. PAINE. It was considerably after the assassination, and I read it in a paper. I still don't remember what time or day it was.
Mr. JENNER. Now, did you write Marina on or about the 11th of July?
Mrs. PAINE. I have a rough draft of that date.
Mr. JENNER. I hand you a document of two pages which has been identified as Commission Exhibit No. 410.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 410 for identification.)
Would you please tell us what that document is?
Mrs. PAINE. This is the rough draft, to which I just referred, written to Marina.
Mr. JENNER. And you thereupon prepared the final draft and sent it?
Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. This represents, does it not, your best recollection of the contents of the letter, the letter in its final form as you transmitted it to Marina?
Mrs. PAINE. I think this is probably a very accurate representation of the letter in its final form. It was the first time I put on paper an invitation to her to come and stay with me for anything more than a few weeks around the birth of the baby.
Mr. JENNER. Have you supplied the Commission with a translation of your letter?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I have.
Mr. JENNER. And that appears at the bottom of page 7 of your notes which you have supplied to me?
Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. I direct your attention, if I may, and the attention of the Commission as interpreted by Mrs. Paine, the first sentence reads, "Dear Marina, if Lee doesn't wish to live with you any more and prefers that you go to the Soviet Union, think about the possibility of living with me."
You just said--is that the portion of your letter which you say this is the first invitation you made to Marina to come to live with you generally?
Mrs. PAINE. This was the first written invitation.
Mr. JENNER. I see.
Mrs. PAINE. I had made an informal invitation face to face when she was staying the first week in May, but felt as I made it that she didn't take this seriously.
Mr. JENNER. Now, you go on in your letter and you make reference, for example, to--let's take the second paragraph of your letter appearing at the top of page 8 of your notes, "You know I have long received from my parents, live dependent a long time. I would be happy to be an aunt to you and I can. We have sufficient money. Michael will be glad. This I know. He just gave me $500 for the vacation or something necessary. With this money it is possible to pay the doctor and hospital in October when the baby is born, believe God. All will be well for you and the children. I confess that I think that the opportunity for me to know you came from God. Perhaps it is not so but I think and believe so."
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Had you discussed this matter with your husband?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I had.
Mr. JENNER. And you were still living separate and apart at that time?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. But I felt so long as I was not yet earning, he would be the one, in fact, who was supporting all of us.
Mr. JENNER. I think the Commission might be interested in that. You were not taking this action, either in the earlier stage in the early spring or in the summer of inviting Marina to live with you without discussing that with your husband even though you and your husband at that time were separated?
Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Did you do anything, Mrs. Paine, in this connection with respect to keeping Lee Oswald informed of your invitations and your communications in this area with Marina?
Mrs. PAINE. I wrote into the letter that I hoped--well you might just read the last paragraph.
Mr. JENNER. Would you mind reading it?
Mrs. PAINE. I will read it, the last paragraph in the letter, and I might say that the entire letter I wrote with the possibility in mind that he should see this.
Mr. JENNER. Did you desire that he do see it?
Mrs. PAINE. I wanted him to--her to feel free to show it to him. I didn't want her to come to my house if this offended or injured him, if this was in some way
(At this point, Senator Cooper entered the hearing room.)
Mr. JENNER. Divisive?
Mrs. PAINE. If he did in fact want to keep his family together, I certainly wanted him to, but if the bulk of his feelings lay on the side of wanting to be away, separated from Marina, then I thought it was legitimate for him to have that alternative, although it was not legitimate for him to simply send her back if she didn't want to go.
Mr. JENNER. Send her back where?
Mrs. PAINE. To the Soviet Union, if she didn't want to go. So in this light I will read the last paragraph of Commission Exhibit 410:
"I don't want to hurt Lee with this invitation to you. Only I think that it would be better that you and he do not live together if you do not receive happiness. I understand how Michael feels. He doesn't love me and wants a chance to look for another life and another wife. He must do this, it seems, and so it is better for us not to live together. I don't know how Lee feels. would like to know. Surely things are hard for him now, too. I hope that he would be glad to see you with me where he can know that you and the children will receive everything that is
necessary and he would not need to worry about it. Thus he could start life again."
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, having all this in mind and what you have testified to up to now, would you please tell the gentlemen of the Commission the factors and motivations you had in inviting Marina to come live with you; first to have her baby, next on a more extended scale, all of the factors that motivated you in your offer, in your own words?
Mrs. PAINE. The first invitation, just to come for a few weeks at the time of the birth is a simpler question, I will answer that first.
I felt that she would need someone simply to take care of her older child for the time that she was in the hospital, and that things would be easier for her if she didn't have to immediately take up the full household chores upon returning from the hospital. This was a very simple offer.
Mr. JENNER. That was all that motivated you at that time?
Mrs. PAINE. Now, in asking her to come and stay for a more extended period, I had many feelings. I was living alone with my children, at that time, had been since the previous fall, nearly a year, at the time this letter is written. I had no idea that my husband might move back to the house. I was tired of living alone and lonely, and here was a woman who was alone and in a sense also, if Lee, in fact didn't want to be with her, and further she was a person I liked. I had lived with her 2 weeks in late April and early May. I enjoyed her company.
Further, being able to talk Russian with her added a wider dimension to
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my rather small and boring life as a young mother. I didn't want to go out and get a job because I wanted to be home with my children, but on the other hand, I saw a way to, and that is part of what studying Russian altogether is for me, a way to make my daily life more interesting. I also felt when I first heard in March that Lee was wanting to send Marina back, that is how it was presented to me, that it just seemed a shame that our country couldn't be a more hospitable thing for her if she wanted so much to stay, that I thought she should have that opportunity.
I was pleased that she liked America, and thought that she should have a chance to stay here and raise her children here as she wished.
I might say also if I had not been living alone I would not have undertaken such an invitation. My
house is small and it wouldn't have gone with married life.
Mr. JENNER. I wanted to afford you that opportunity. Now, you have related all the factors that motivated you?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. I offer in evidence as Commission Exhibit No. 410 the document which has been so identified.
Mr. McCLOY. It may be admitted.
(The document referred to, previously marked as Commission Exhibit No. 410 for identification, was received in evidence.)
Mr. McCLOY. We have been going for an hour and a half. If you would like to have a recess you may have it.
Mrs. PAINE. I am all right.
Mr. McCLOY. All right, we will go on then.
Mr. JENNER. You mentioned in the course of your explanation earlier a series of three letters. I hand you a draft of letter dated July 12, 1963, addressed to Dear Marina, consisting of two pages, which we will mark as Commission Exhibit No. 411. And another one-page letter which we will mark as Commission Exhibit No. 412.
In whose handwriting is each of those exhibits?
Mrs. PAINE. Each of these are in my handwriting.
Mr. JENNER. And they are drafts, are they?
Mrs. PAINE. They are.
Mr. JENNER. And you would then, after making those drafts put them in final form?
Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Did you transmit the final draft of letter to Marina Oswald?
Mrs. PAINE. I mailed them to her address in New Orleans.
Mr. JENNER. Have you supplied me with your translation of both of those drafts?
Mrs. PAINE. I have.
Mr. JENNER. Each draft is in your handwriting?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And the interpretations appearing at the bottom of page 8 and the bottom of page 9 are the material you supplied me and they consist of your interpretations of those letters or translations, rather?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right. They are dated respectively July 12 and July 14.
Mr. JENNER. I band you a picture copy rather than a photostatic copy of a two-page letter dated July 14, 1963, and a translation of that letter which we will mark as Commission Exhibits Nos. 413 and 414, respectively.
(The documents referred to were marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 413 and 414 for identification.)
Mr. JENNER. Directing your attention to Exhibit 413, would you tell us what that is?
Mrs. PAINE. This appears to be a photograph of the letter I then wrote from my final draft and sent to Marina, dated the 14th of July.
Mr. JENNER. So that Exhibit No. 413 is the--
Mrs. PAINE. 413, the photograph.
Mr. JENNER. 413 is to the best of your recollection an actual picture of your final draft letter as transmitted to Marina?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
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Mr. JENNER. Now directing your attention to page 10 of the material that you supplied me, and which you discussed with me last evening, you wished to make a statement to the Commission with respect to this letter, do you?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Would you please proceed to do so?
Mrs. PAINE. I think it would be easier if I read what is here.
Mr. JENNER. Any way you want to handle it, Mrs. Paine.
Mrs. PAINE. Marina stayed with me 2 weeks in the spring as you know, and I realized then what a proud and capable person she is. She was not accustomed to accept help from others, and I knew that her pride and independence would be a stumbling block to her accepting help even though she needed it.
I respected her for this and somehow I wanted to ease such acceptance for her, and to explain that the situation I proposed would be a situation of mutual help. I hoped--now I should say that in Commission Exhibit--
Mr. JENNER. They are to your right on the table.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; 411 and 412, I mentioned that if she were counted as a dependent on Michael's income tax his yearly payment to the government would be reduced by a certain amount, and that by that amount she we could very nearly live her expenses could very nearly come under this, so it would be more a case of breaking even than a case of her accepting so much as she might think from us. But I think that in fact this reference to the tax reduction did not encourage her, as I had hoped.
Mr. JENNER. It wasn't quite correct either, was it, Mrs. Paine? (Laughter.)
Mrs. PAINE. Did I get a chance to read the second letter as written at 2 a.m. and I was hopeful only more than--
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, I think the members of the Commission and also you from our talk last night, are interested in your letters which you have now identified suggesting financial arrangements to Mrs. Oswald, since to one who might read them without knowing the background they might seem crass.
Mrs. PAINE. I felt crass in Russian, particularly.
Mr. JENNER. I was not thinking in terms of your difficulty in communicating with her, but you had no selfish or ulterior financial motive, did you, in this connection?
Mrs. PAINE. Did it appear that?
Mr. JENNER. It might.
Mrs. PAINE. Even with such bad arithmetic.
Mr. JENNER. Your arithmetic was all right. Your interpretation of the law was not as good as it might be.
Mr. DULLES. Am I not correct, I understood you were trying to make her feel she was not going to be a burden to you?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. DULLES. And were using certain subterfuges to accomplish that; that is the impression I got from what you said.
Mrs. PAINE. That is absolutely correct. That I hoped, and further I would say in the letters to her I made reference that this money not paid to the government would be therefore available for spending money for her. I had put myself in her position and thought wouldn't it be terrible to have to ask for a nickel for a package of Lifesavers every time you wanted it, and thought I wouldn't want to be in such a situation if she doesn't have her own, something she can count upon as her own money, it would be unbearable to her.
So I tried to cast about both for a way of making her feel that this would not be a burden to us, and a way of getting her petty cash in the pocket that she would not feel was a handout. So that it would be a legitimate possibility for her to consider.
I judge that my effort in this regard, besides the bad understanding of the tax law and the poor arithmetic, didn't help because of her following letter.
Mr. JENNER. That is what I was coming to. Before we get to that, Mrs. Paine, I direct your attention to Commission Exhibit No. 414.
Mrs. PAINE. 414?
Mr. JENNER. That is a translation of your letter, Commission Exhibit No. 413. Have you read that translation?
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Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Is there anything in the translation to which you might desire to take exception or at least make a comment?
(At this point Chief Justice Warren left the hearing room.)
Mrs. PAINE. One minute. Yes, it accurately reflects some of my bad Russian.
Mr. JENNER. You take no exception to the translation?
Mrs. PAINE. I think no.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, if you please, I offer in evidence, Mr. Dulles, may I have those exhibits.
Mr. McCLOY. They may be admitted.
Mr. JENNER. As Commission Exhibits 411, 412, 413 and 414, the documents that had been so marked?
Mr. McCLOY. They will be admitted.
(The documents referred, previously marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 411, 412, 413, and 414, were received in evidence.)
Mr. JENNER. You did receive a response from Marina, did you not, Mrs. Paine?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did.
Mr. JENNER. And is the response the document now handed to you marked Commission Exhibit No. 415?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is.
Mr. JENNER. And you supplied the Commission with your translation of that letter and that translation--
Mrs. PAINE. 415 is that what you said?
Mr. JENNER. 415. It appears on pages 10, 11, and 12 of the material you supplied me.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You don't have an envelope but you have a letter.
Mrs. PAINE. I don't have an envelope. I don't know what happened to it.
Mr. JENNER. Is the exhibit in Marina Oswald's handwriting?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is.
Mr. JENNER. Is there anything on the exhibit other than that in the handwriting of Marina Oswald?
Mrs. PAINE. There are a few underlinings on the page marked four.
Mr. JENNER. Who placed them there?
Mrs. PAINE. Which are my own.
Mr. JENNER. All fight. Anything else?
Mrs. PAINE. Except for the underlining "he does not know" at the very bottom.
Mr. JENNER. "He" refers to whom?
Mrs. PAINE. Lee.
Mr. JENNER. You were about to state to the Commission Marina Oswald's reaction to your series of invitations. Is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Would you proceed then?
Mrs. PAINE. As reflected in this letter. This was the third letter I received from her after a space of over a month, and I had been very concerned about her. I was much relieved to get it. She said she had been to the doctor and her condition was normal. She responded to this series of four letters of which we have three in rough draft, saying--shall I read in some of the things said?
Mr. JENNER. To the extent that you desire to do so. We will not read the whole letter, it is quite long; that which is pertinent to what you have in mind.
Mrs. PAINE. Well, that for a considerable period Lee has been good to her, she writes. He talks a lot about the coming baby.
Mr. JENNER. Perhaps you might pick out--there are only about four sentences.
Mrs. PAINE. "He has become more attentive and we hardly quarrel".
Mr. JENNER. This indicates a change somewhat in relationship and would you please read that portion of the letter?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. DULLES. Could we have the date of this letter once again?
Mrs. PAINE. The date of the letter. We have no date on the letter. It was written somewhere between July 18 and July 21, which is the date of my reply.
Mr. JENNER. That is how you identify it?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
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Representative FORD. This is 1963?
Mrs. PAINE. Right. Again, "He has become much more attentive and we hardly quarrel. True I have to give in a great deal. It could not be otherwise. But if one wants peace then it is necessary to give in. We went to the doctor, my condition is normal."
And she thanks me for the invitation and thanks Michael also and says: "I would try to take advantage of it if things really become worse, if Lee. becomes coarse with me again and treats me badly."
Mr. JENNER. I direct your attention to the paragraph following that one, Mrs. Paine.
Mrs. PAINE. Now another question: "If as is possible it becomes necessary for-me to come to live with you in order to say that I am a dependent of Michael's surely it would be necessary to have an official divorce, isn't that so? But I think Lee would not agree to a divorce, and to go simply from him to become a burden to you that I don't wish. Surely Michael would need to have a paper showing that I am living at his expense but no one would just take his word for it, right?"
And I realized much later-that in the Soviet Union you don't do anything without the proper papers, and just having a person under your roof for anyone to see, having them in fact eating at your table is not, would not be, sufficient proof--would not be sufficient there in Russia.
Representative BOGGS. It might not be here.
Mrs. PAINE. It might not be here. Well, in any case I judged she felt, reading my invitations this was of some importance to me whether Michael counted her as a deduction, and so on, whereas in fact this wasn't the point at all, but that had hoped to somehow make, if possible, for her to accept such help.
Mr. JENNER. Have you finished your observations?
Representative BOGGS. As a matter of fact, there are certain limitations under our law as to how you can claim a dependent.
Mrs. PAINE. Well, I asked a few people who didn't know much about it before I wrote it.
Representative BOGGS. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. The tenor then of this letter was as I gather from your testimony and as you have related to me last evening whether she would come to live with you in the fall or generally was something which now became subject to reconsideration?
Mrs. PAINE. Pardon?
Mr. JENNER. The matter of her coming to live with you, the possibility of her living with you on a more extended basis than--
Mrs. PAINE. Was an invitation 1 had made to her.
Mr. JENNER. And that her response was not acceptance but one that she would now defer?
Mrs. PAINE. It was a "thank you" and a refusal basically.
Mr. JENNER. Did you respond to that letter?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did. My letter is dated July 12.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Liebeler will mark that Commission Exhibit 416, which consists of how many pages, Mr. Liebeler, three pages. You have that exhibit, is that exhibit all in your handwriting?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is.
Mr. JENNER. Is that the draft of letter to which you have reference being your response to Marina's letter of--
Mrs. PAINE. Undated letter.
Mr. JENNER. Undated letter which would be somewhere just prior to July 21?
Mrs. PAINE. Right.
Mr. JENNER. And is that a draft of letter in the same condition now as it was when you completed it?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Have you supplied the Commission with a translation of that letter?
Mrs. PAINE. I have.
Mr. JENNER We will mark as Commission Exhibits 417 and 418 two exhibits, the first being a one-page exhibit entitled "Translation from Russian", and
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the second being a four page photograph of what appears to be a letter dated July 21, 1963. Directing your attention to Exhibit 418.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Do you find it?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Would you please identify that exhibit? It consists of four pages.
Mrs. PAINE. It appears to be a photograph of my letter to her of July 21.
Mr. JENNER. Having observed it and looked at it last night, is it your best recollection at the moment that it is a photograph of the letter that you actually transmitted to Marina?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Directing your attention to the next exhibit which is No. 418--
Mrs. PAINE. 417, you are talking about the translation.
Mr. JENNER. Is that a translation of the letter, of your letter to her?
Mrs. PAINE. That is far from complete.
Representative FORD. It is far from complete?
Mrs. PAINE. Far from complete. It is incomplete.
Mr. JENNER. I would like to have you make then, directing your attention to the translation that has been supplied us.
Mrs. PAINE. It goes as far as two-thirds down on page 2, you must have more somewhere.
Mr. JENNER. No; that is all we have. Would you mark with this red marker pen the point to which Exhibit 417 is a translation?
Mrs. PAINE. Here.
Mr. JENNER. Is the translation accurate up to that point or rather do you have any exceptions to it?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. In relation to what?
Mrs. PAINE. "This would" on the next to the last paragraph "this would offend my father very much." "This hurt my father", no subjunctive to it.
Mr. JENNER. Do it this way. Read what is on it, what the interpreter--
Mrs. PAINE. Wait.
Mr. JENNER. Said.
Mrs. PAINE. I guess that is just the interpreter trying to "offer you an alternative". State the question again. You want to know if I take any exception to the translation I have before me, this portion of my July 21 letter? They are all small.
Mr. JENNER. They are small and none of consequence.
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. So far as you are concerned. Your translation, however, that you supplied the Commission is as far as you are concerned accurate and what you intend to say, at least?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; and I think it is what I said.
Mr. JENNER. All right. I offer in evidence, if the Chairman please, the documents that have been marked--may I have them please, Representative Ford?
Mrs. PAINE. These, too?
Mr. JENNER. Documents marked 415, 416, 417, and 418.
Mr. McCLOY. Do I understand there is not a complete translation?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. McCLOY. Of the letter. It is an incomplete translation?
Mrs. PAINE. There is a page 2 somewhere.
Mr. JENNER. That is correct. During the noon hour I will see if that is not a mistake and if I can be supplied with the balance, if there is a balance.
Mr. McCLOY. They may be admitted in this form and then you can advise us after the recess whether there is anything additional to insert at this point.
(The documents referred to, heretofore marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 415, 416, 417, and 418, were received in evidence.)
Mr. JENNER. NOW, there is a matter to which I would like to draw your attention in your letter of July 21, which is Commission Exhibit No. 416, the last portion of it, and I direct your attention, in
turn, to your own interpretation appearing at page 3. The last paragraph, when you brought Marina to
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New Orleans, did you do anything by way of seeking to have people in New Orleans visit her?
Mrs. PAINE. No. I have already testified that after an initial warm greeting with Lee, they quarreled, and I was uncomfortable there, and wanted to get back home. I had thought of making contact for Marina with someone in the Russian speaking community in New Orleans, and later when I didn't hear from her after this note that looks like "I will have to go back to Russia after all," I much regretted that I had not made some contact for her, someone she could talk to, herself. And anxious, not having heard from her a month from the time of this appendage to my corrected letter, I telephoned Ruth Kloepfer who is the clerk of the Quaker Meeting in New Orleans.
Mr. JENNER. Would you spell her name, please?
Mrs. PAINE. She is not someone I know. That is spelled K-L-O-E-P-F-E-R, and I asked her if she knew any Russians in New Orleans. She did not. I then wrote to Mrs. Paul Blanchard.
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, when you use the pronoun "she" there you asked Marina?
Mrs. PAINE. I asked Mrs. Kloepfer if she knew any Russian-speaking people and described why I was interested in knowing. I must have given her the address of Marina, probably asked that she go and see her. In any case, I have a letter which followed that telephone call, which I wrote to Mrs. Paul Blanchard.
Mr. McCLOY. Pardon me, did you say you telephoned to Mrs. Blanchard or you wrote to Mrs. Blanchard?
Mrs. PAINE. I wrote to Mrs. Blanchard, I had originally telephoned to Mrs. Kloepfer.
Mr. JENNER. Did you make the telephone call when you were in New Orleans?
Mrs. PAINE. No; this was when I was concerned. I had not heard from Marina for a month. I did not know whether she was in good health or had gone back to the Soviet Union.
Mr. JENNER. So you called Mrs. Kloepfer in New Orleans?
Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. After having tried to call the Murrets. I had not had their name accurately.
Representative BOGGS. How did you happen to write to Mrs. Blanchard?
Mrs. PAINE. She is the secretary of the Unitarian Church in New Orleans and I called the Quaker Church in Dallas to find out who was in New Orleans of the Quakers, and then I called the Unitarian Church which my husband belongs to in Dallas to find out who the secretary of the New Orleans Unitarian Church was.
Representative BOGGS. You do not know Mrs. Blanchard?
Mrs. PAINE. I did not know her, and I did not know Mrs. Kloepfer either, and appended to this that I am leaving with the Commission is my carbon of a letter to Mrs. Blanchard of the Unitarian Church, which I sent in carbon to Mrs. Kloepfer so each would know what the other was doing in an effort to find a Russian-speaking person who could be a contact for Marina.
(At this point Representative Ford left the hearing room.)
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, you have now mentioned a letter that you wrote to Mrs. Blanchard; have you supplied the Commission with a carbon copy of that letter?
Mrs. PAINE. I have.
Mr. JENNER. And it is a two-page document, Mr. Chairman, dated July 18, 1963, now marked as Commission Exhibit 419. That exhibit has now been handed to you, Mrs. Paine. Is that the carbon copy of your letter to Mrs. Blanchard?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is.
Mr. JENNER. You did not know Mrs. Blanchard, had never heard of her prior to the time you wrote the letter?
Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. It begins saying, "Mrs. Philip Harper, the secretary of the Dallas Unitarian Church, suggested I write to you when I told her of the following problem."
Mr. JENNER. Is the document in the same condition now as it was when you prepared the original of which that is a carbon copy?
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Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. I offer in evidence as Commission Exhibit No. 419 the document which has been so identified.
Mr. McCLOY. It may be so admitted.
(The document referred to was marked for identification as Commission Exhibit No. 419 and received in evidence.)
Mrs. PAINE. Will there be any difficulty that it starts with typing and then it goes carbon?
Mr. JENNER. Explain that.
Mrs. PAINE. I wrote two carbon paragraphs and then I thought I should write a carbon of this to Mrs. Blanchard and put in a carbon and then in my own copy put in typing.
Mr. JENNER. So that which appears to be a copy is an original and that which follows, what appears to be original, is an actual carbon copy of the letter you actually sent to Mrs. Blanchard?
Mrs. PAINE. With copy stated here to Mrs. Kloepfer.
Mr. JENNER. Did you hear from Marina on that subject at any time?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. In her succeeding and last letter that I got from her.
Mr. JENNER. Her succeeding letter is dated what?
Mrs. PAINE. It has no date inside. It is postmarked August 11 from New Orleans and sent to me while I was on vacation.
Mr. JENNER. We have marked as Commission Exhibit No. 420 the envelope and attached to 420 is what purports to be a four-page letter in Russian longhand--may we have this as a group exhibit consisting of the envelope and the four-page letter?
Mr. McCLOY. If it is properly attached I guess you can.
Mrs. PAINE. There is no date on the letter, if they separate you don't know what it is.
Mr. JENNER. We have marked the four-page letter as Commission Exhibit 421 in order to avoid any difficulty.
Directing your attention to Exhibit 421, do you recognize the handwriting on that exhibit?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; that is Marina Oswald's handwriting.
Mr. JENNER. That is a letter to you, is it not?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is.
Mr. JENNER. And you supplied the Commission with your translation of that.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I have.
Mr. JENNER. That appears at pages 13 and 14 of the materials you furnished
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Is that letter in the same condition now as it was when you received it?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; with the exception of an addition in my handwriting on the bottom of unmarked page 3.
Mr. JENNER. Would you read that?
Mrs. PAINE. Which is a translation of one word.
Mr. JENNER. What word is that?
Mrs. PAINE. A word means to grow downcast.
Mr. DULLES. I didn't catch that.
Mrs. PAINE. To grow downcast, to lose courage.
Mr. JENNER. Directing your attention to the envelope which is marked Commission Exhibit 420.
Mrs. PAINE. I want to make one other comment. I underlined the word on the second page that I have translated as "winsome."
Mr. JENNER. W-i-n-s-o-m-e?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. The other underlinings in her letter are her own.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Directing your attention to the pink envelope which Exhibit No. 420, was Exhibit 421 enclosed in Exhibit 420?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it was.
Mr. JENNER. That also is in English, that is the address?
Mrs. PAINE. The address is in English, addressed to me while on vacation.
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Mr. JENNER. And you received those documents in due course?
Mrs. PAINE. Which documents?
Mr. JENNER. You received the documents in due course?
Mrs. PAINE. It was not forwarded. It was addressed to me where I was.
Mr. JENNER. But you received them is all I am asking?
Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes.
Mr. JENNER. I offer in evidence as Commission Exhibits 420 and 421, the documents which have been so marked.
Mr. McCLOY. They may be so admitted.
(The documents referred to were marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 420 and 421 for identification and received in evidence.)
Mr. JENNER. There is one item in Exhibit 421 to which I wish to direct your attention. On the last page about the third paragraph from the bottom appears the second sentence, "Lee doesn't have work now already three weeks." Do you find that?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Had you had any information prior to the receipt of this letter
that Lee Oswald no longer was employed in New Orleans?
Mrs. PAINE. I had no such information.
Mr. JENNER. This was your first information?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Did you respond to that letter?
Mrs. PAINE. I did.
Mr. JENNER. I have a five-page document Mr. Liebeler is identifying as Commission Exhibit No. 422.
Mrs. PAINE. This is not what you want. You want my reply, don't you next?
Mr. JENNER. That is right.
Mrs. PAINE. This is not it. You have my reply but I had had no copy of that.
Mr. JENNER. We will keep that exhibit number. There has been identified as Commission Exhibit 423 an exhibit consisting of four pages, the first three of which are a photograph of a letter, and the last page of which is a photograph of an envelope. Handing you Commission Exhibit No. 423, is that a picture of your letter to Marina Oswald in response to her letter of August 11?
Mrs. PAINE. August 11. Yes; it is dated August 24, 1963.
Mr. JENNER. And you do recognize that as being a picture copy of letter you had written?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you supplied the Commission with a translation of that letter?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I did not. I did not have this in rough draft. I had no copy of this. You may have a translation but I do not.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mrs. PAINE. I supplied you only on this summary that you have with a brief recollection of what it contained.
Mr. JENNER. I now hand you a document, Commission Exhibit No. 424 consisting of two pages which purports to be a translation of Exhibit 423. Did you review that translation with me last evening?
Mrs. PAINE. Briefly.
Mr. JENNER. To the best of your recollection at the moment of what you said last night that the translation is of Exhibit 423?
Mrs. PAINE. It is approximately what I recall writing. I didn't look at the Russian in your pictures.
Mr. JENNER. During the noon recess would you wish to look at that and if you have any exception you wish to take to the translation would you please state it to the Commission?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. McCLOY. May I intervene at this point about Exhibit 422, has that been properly identified?
Mrs. PAINE. No; not yet.
Mr. JENNER. Could we return it to the witness? Exhibit 422 is in whose handwriting?
Mrs. PAINE. It is in my handwriting.
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Mr. JENNER. Is that a draft of a letter?
Mrs. PAINE. That is a letter which I wrote but never sent.
Mr. JENNER. You testified about that letter yesterday?
Mrs. PAINE. I did.
Mr. JENNER. Did you not?
Mrs. PAINE. It is dated April 7.
Mr. JENNER. Have you supplied the Commission with a translation, your translation of that letter?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I have with appropriate paragraph before it saying that it was not sent, that I wrote it not necessarily to send or give to her but simply to have, I think as I testified yesterday, the words at my command ready in case it seemed appropriate to make such an invitation.
Mr. JENNER. And this was prepared on or about April 7, 1963?
Mrs. PAINE. I would judge on the 7th.
Mr. JENNER. Is that letter in the same condition now as it was when you completed writing it?
Mrs. PAINE. I have added since completing writing, I have added in pencil at the top, "not sent" in English. It is otherwise the same.
Mr. JENNER. I won't go into that further, Mr. Chairman, because the witness did testify about it yesterday other than to offer the document in evidence.
Mr. McCLOY. I simply thought it needed a little elaboration.
Mr. JENNER. You were quite right, sir.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 422 for identification and received in evidence.)
Mr. JENNER. Where were you in the summer of 1963?
Mrs. PAINE. May I interrupt.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. PAINE. Did you want to make any reference to the reference to Lee's driving in Exhibit 424?
Mr. JENNER. Thank you very much, Mrs. Paine, and I do want to go into it.
Mrs. PAINE. I have it underlined.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Dulles, would you be good enough to let me have it? This translation which appears as Commission Exhibit 424, the fourth paragraph reads "Lee told me that he learned a little from his Uncle how to drive a car. It would be very useful for him to know how to drive but it is hard to find time for this when he works every day."
Mrs. PAINE. I might make a comment about that.
Mr. JENNER. This is your comment, is it not?
Mrs. PAINE. I might make a comment about that.
Mr. JENNER. This is your comment, is it not?
Mrs. PAINE. I wrote that.
Mr. JENNER. Now, the Commission is very interested in the subject matter of Mr. Oswald, of Lee Oswald being able to drive a car and I think it might be well if we covered the whole subject from the beginning to the end.
Would you give the Commission your full, most accurate recollection of this whole subject? Start at the very beginning.
Mrs. PAINE. I think I learned either in March or April that Lee
Mr. JENNER. Of 1963?
Mrs. PAINE. 1963.
Mr. JENNER. This would be early in your acquaintance with him?
Mrs. PAINE. Very early. I leaned Lee was not able to drive and didn't have a license.
Mr. JENNER. How did you learn he was not able to drive?
Mrs. PAINE. I think it was related to his looking for work the first time in the middle of April, and I had learned he had looked in the Dallas area for work.
Mr. JENNER. How did you learn it?
Mrs. PAINE. We were talking about it.
Mr. JENNER. You were talking with Lee?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did he tell you that he was not able to drive a car?
Mrs. PAINE. That he had never learned how.
Mr. JENNER. That he had difficulty in getting around?
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Mrs. PAINE. Simply he had never learned how.
Mr. JENNER. He said this to you?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. And I felt immediately that his job opportunities, the jobs to which he could have applied, and the jobs to which he could get himself would be greatly broadened if he were able to drive and said so.
Mr. JENNER. You said that to him?
Mrs. PAINE. And said that to him. Then when we arrived in New Orleans he said to me by way of almost pride that he had been allowed by his uncle to drive his uncle's car.
Mr. JENNER. That is Mr. Murret?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't know whether there was more than one.
Mr. JENNER. But he volunteered the statement to you?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And it was something that had occurred after he had gotten to New Orleans?
Mrs. PAINE. And he was in a sense pleased to report to me that he was getting some experience driving. That his uncle had permitted him to drive the car on the street.
Mr. JENNER. On the street?
Mrs. PAINE. On the street.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have occasion while you were in New Orleans to verify
that in any respect whatsoever?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Or have it verified to you?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. This was confined to a remark that he made to you?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right. Then when I learned in Marina's letter of August 11 that Lee was out of work, I immediately thought it would be well for him to make use of those free weekdays, not only for job hunting but for learning the skill of driving and, therefore, that paragraph--shall we read it?
Mr. JENNER. Haven't I already read it?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I don't think so.
Mr. JENNER. You mean from your letter?
Mrs. PAINE. Did you read that?
Mr. JENNER. The paragraph "Lee told me that he learned a little from his uncle how to drive a car."
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you read that "It would be very useful for him to know how to drive but it is hard to find time for this when he works every day-"
Just to be certain of this, Mrs. Paine, this was a remark made to you by Lee Harvey Oswald when you brought Marina from Irving, Tex., to New Orleans, and--
Mrs. PAINE. The second week in May.
Mr. JENNER. The second week in May of 1963. And then, according to the remark made to you by Lee Harvey Oswald that his uncle had permitted him to drive his uncle's car on the street in New Orleans?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; and he was proud of this.
Mr. JENNER. Did he ask at that time or any time while you were in New Orleans in the spring to drive your car?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion at all during--did you have the feeling that he would like to drive the car?
Mrs. PAINE. There was no discussion of it.
Mr. JENNER. Did he demonstrate to you that he could drive?
Mrs. PAINE. The. re was no discussion of it.
Mr. JENNER. You have given us all that occurred in New Orleans by way of conversation or otherwise on the subject of Lee Harvey Oswald driving an automobile or his ability to drive?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Now, you are telling us the whole story on this subject. So when next
Senator COOPER. May I ask this one question?
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Mr. JENNER. Excuse me.
Senator COOPER. Did Lee Oswald identify the uncle who permitted him to drive his car?
Mrs. PAINE. Senator Cooper, he did not. He just said his uncle. He did not identify his uncle by name.
Senator COOPER. Do you know of your own knowledge who the uncle was?
Mrs. PAINE. I can only assume.
Senator COOPER. What?
Mrs. PAINE. I can only assume it was the uncle he had been staying with. He had been staying at his home.
Mr. JENNER. You had met the uncle at this time?
Mrs. PAINE. Just met him.
Mr. JENNER. So it was the uncle with whom he had been staying just before he obtained the apartment at Magazine?
Mr. McCLOY. What is the uncle's name?
Mr. JENNER. Dutz Murret. This was the relative who had the nice home that Marina first saw when she arrived there and thought maybe that is where she was going to live, is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Go ahead, Mrs. Paine.
Mrs. PAINE. You want all other references to driving?
Mr. JENNER. Confining yourself to his ability to drive automobiles, when next, and take it in chronological order as to when you next recall it?
Mrs. PAINE. It came up next after he returned to the Dallas area in October.
Mr. JENNER. When was that?
Mrs. PAINE. After he returned on the 4th, to my knowledge.
Mr. JENNER. The 4th of October?
Mrs. PAINE. That was the first I know.
Mr. JENNER. We will get into the reasons and the circumstances but you stick with the automobile incidents.
Mrs. PAINE. He was looking for work.
Mr. JENNER. In Dallas?
Mrs. PAINE. In the Dallas area and again, of course, I felt that he could find more jobs, be eligible for more if he could drive.
Mr. JENNER. What did you do about it?
Mrs. PAINE. I recalled that I had a copy of the regulations for driving, what you need to know to pass the written test.
Mr. JENNER. In what State?
Mrs. PAINE. In the State of Texas, and I gave him that booklet.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have a discussion with him about your desire, your recommendation, that he qualify to drive an automobile in Texas so it would assist him in connection with his job hunting.
Mrs. PAINE. Probably. We certainly had conversation about it.
Mr. JENNER. Give us the subject of the conversation in terms of recommendations by you, or what did you say?
Mrs. PAINE. I again recommended, as I had in the spring, that he learn to drive.
Mr. JENNER. What did he say?
Mrs. PAINE. He was interested in learning to drive.
Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything to you?
Mrs. PAINE. I would like to offer to the Commission something we didn't get to last night.
Mr. JENNER. I see.
Mrs. PAINE. Which is a letter I wrote to my mother, which she just showed me recently, she just found it recently, which makes reference to the date I first gave him a lesson in driving.
Mr. JENNER. That would be helpful to us. May I have the letter, please?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. Now only a portion of it is applicable.
Mr. JENNER. Why don't we give it a number?
Mrs. PAINE. Another portion is applicable in another connection, which I would like especially to bring up.
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Mr. JENNER. Having that in mind, we will give that document for identification at the moment only, the number Commission Exhibit No. 425.
I won't identify it beyond that for the moment because the witness will be using it to refresh her recollection.
Mrs. PAINE. I will read what applies here.
Mr. JENNER. You are now reading from Commission Exhibit No. 425.
Mrs. PAINE. Which is a letter dated October 14, in my hand, from me to my mother.
Mr. DULLES. Would you give your mother's name?
Mrs. PAINE. Her name is Mrs. Carol Hyde.
Representative BOGGS. Where does she live?
Mrs. PAINE. In Columbus, Ohio. It was likely written to Oberlin, where she was a student at that time.
"If Lee can just find work that will help so much. Meantime I started giving him driving lessons last Sunday (yesterday). If he can drive this will open up more job possibilities and more locations."
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. PAINE. I want to comment too on the nature of this lesson.
Mr. JENNER. The Commission will be interested in that but you go ahead.
Mrs. PAINE. Now?
Mr. JENNER. Go right ahead.
Mrs. PAINE. I knew that he had not even a learner's permit to drive. I wasn't interested in his driving on the street with my car until he had such. But on Sunday the parking lot of a neighboring shopping center was empty, and I am quite certain that is where the driving lesson took place.
Mr. JENNER. That is your best present recollection?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. Now I recall this also, and it is significant. I offered him a lesson and intended to drive him to this area for him to practice. He, however, started the car.
Mr. JENNER. He got in and started the car?
Mrs. PAINE. He got in and started the car so that I know he was able to do that and wanted to drive on the street to the parking lot.
Mr. JENNER. He wanted to?
Mrs. PAINE. He wanted to. I said, "My father is an insurance man and he would never forgive me."
Mr. JENNER. Your father?
Mrs. PAINE. My father. And insisted that he get a learner's permit before he would drive on the street.
Mr. JENNER. At that moment and at that time he acted, in any event in your presence, as though he himself thought--
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. He would be capable of driving an automobile from your home to the parking area in which you were about to give him a lesson. That was your full impression, was it not?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. I should add that, as I am recalling, he did drive a portion of the way, he drove in fact, it is about three blocks, to the parking lot. I was embarrassed to just tell him "No, don't." But I did, in. effect, on the way there, when he was on the street, driving on the street in my car, when we got there I said, "Now, I am going to drive back." I didn't want him to.
Mr. JENNER. From your home to the parking lot?
Mrs. PAINE. The first time before we had any lesson at all. And at that time I made it clear I didn't want him to drive in the street. Also, it became clear to me in that lesson that he was very unskilled in driving. We practiced a number of the things you need to know, to back up, to turn, right angle turn to come to a stop.
Mr. JENNER. Was this on the parking lot?
Mrs. PAINE. This was all on a parking lot.
Mr. DULLES. Did I understand you to say he drove three blocks, was that all the way to the parking lot? So he drove all the way to the parking lot?
Mrs. PAINE. Perhaps a little longer. But a short distance, whatever it was, to the parking lot, yes. Rather than stopping in midstreet and changing drivers. Going to turn a right angle----
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Mr. DULLES. How well did he do on that?
Mr. McCLOY. That is what she is telling.
Mrs. PAINE. No; that is a separate answer.
Mr. JENNER. She is talking about the parking lot.
Mrs. PAINE. I was very nervous while he was doing it and was not at all happy about his doing it. I would say he did modestly well; but no means skilled in coming to a stop and turning a square right angle at a corner.
Mr. JENNER. Was there much traffic?
Mrs. PAINE. No. But then too, I noticed when we got to the parking lot when he attempted to turn in a right angle he made the usual mistake of a beginner of turning too much and then having to correct it. He was not familiar with the delay of the steering wheel in relation to the wheels, actual wheels of the power--
Mr. JENNER. Was it power--
Mrs. PAINE. It was not power steering. But it has no clutch so that makes it a lot easier to drive.
Mr. JENNER. It is an automatic transmission?
Mrs. PAINE. It is an automatic transmission.
Mr. JENNER. Describe your automobile, will you please?
Mrs. PAINE. It is a 1955 Chevrolet station wagon, green, needing paint, which we bought secondhand. It is in my name.
Mr. McCLOY. But automatic transmission?
Mrs. PAINE. Automatic transmission; yes.
Then, in the later lessons, I think there were altogether three with Lee.
Mr. JENNER. Have you finished with this lesson on the Sunday morning, was it?
Mrs. PAINE. No; it was a Sunday afternoon and I drove back to the house.
Mr. JENNER. How long did the lesson take on the parking lot?
Mrs. PAINE Oh, 20 minutes, perhaps. I will say of him that he set for himself tasks; a good student in the sense that he planned now I am going to back up this way and I am going--one of the problems is to turn around and go the other way on the street. In other words--
Mr. JENNER. U-turn.
Mrs. PAINE. It is not a U-turn, no. It is a narrower one to head in back up and go the other way and he would set this problem for himself, how to do it, back up and do it, and set the problem of backing up, driving, going back, I mean. And set himself a course. I was doing this, too, but I was interested in the eagerness he had and his desire to achieve; desire to do this and do it well.
In helping himself by setting up these course plans, you could almost say.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Would you refresh my recollection of the date this occurred?
Mrs. PAINE. My letter is dated the 14th. I say, "I taught him yesterday, Sunday."
Mr. JENNER. Fourteenth of October?
Mrs. PAINE. Fourteenth of October. So that would have been--
Mr. JENNER. That would have been October 7?
Mrs. PAINE. Thirteenth.
Senator COOPER. May I ask a question here?
Mr. McCLOY. Senator Cooper has a question.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Senator COOPER. On the occasion when you drove with him, did you find it necessary to show him how to turn on the ignition?
Mrs. PAINE. No; 1 did not.
Senator COOPER. How to take steps to start the car and put it in motion?
Mrs. PAINE. No. indeed; he had started it before I came out or else he wouldn't have been in the driver's seat because I didn't want him to drive on the street. So he had the car ready to go; backed out with a considerable bump.
Mr. JENNER. He backed out of the driveway?
Mrs. PAINE. I am recalling this now, I think so. I recall that he then didn't attempt to go, I didn't let him, but at one point we practiced parking on the street in front of my house.
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Mr. JENNER. This was a subsequent occasion?
Mrs. PAINE. This was a subsequent occasion. But when the lesson was done he gradually let me turn the car into the driveway. This is harder and I was glad to do. it and he was glad to be relieved of that requirement.
Representative BOGGS. Mr. Chairman, I don't want to interrupt this line of inquiry, but I have to go to a meeting at the Speaker's office and I can't be back this afternoon, and I wonder if I might ask Mrs. Paine several questions?
Mr. McCLOY. By all means.
Representative BOGGS. Not particularly in this line. Where did you first meet Marina. I know you told us.
Mr. McCLOY. She testified to that yesterday.
Representative BOGGS. Tell me briefly.
Mrs. PAINE. At a party of people at the end of February 1963.
Representative BOGGS. How long was it thereafter that she moved into your home for the first time?
Mrs. PAINE. She first came on the 24th of April.
Representative BOGGS. And she lived there for 2 weeks?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Representative BOGGS. And her husband lived here her husband was with her?
Mrs. PAINE. No. He had already gone on to New Orleans.
Representative BOGGS. When did she return to your home?
Mrs. PAINE. She came with me from New Orleans, leaving there the 23d of September and arriving in Irving the 24th of September.
Representative BOGGS. And she lived with you in Irving from the 24th of September until the 23d?
Mrs. PAINE. The morning of the 23d.
Representative BOGGS. Of November?
Mrs. PAINE. She left the morning of the 23d, she left expecting to come back.
Representative BOGGS. During that period of time did Lee Oswald live there?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Representative BOGGS. He visited there on weekends?
Mrs. PAINE. He visited there on weekends.
Representative BOGGS. How well did you know Lee Oswald?
Mrs. PAINE. Insufficiently well.
Representative BOGGS. What do you mean by that?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, I regret, of course, very deeply that I didn't perceive him as a violent man.
Representative BOGGS. You saw no evidence of violence in him at any time?
Mrs. PAINE. No, I didn't. He argued with his wife but he never struck her. I never heard from her of any violence from him.
Representative BOGGS. Did he ever express any hostility toward anyone while he was talking with you?
Mrs. PAINE. Not of a violent or
Representative BOGGS. Did he ever express any political opinions to you?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, he called himself a Marxist. He said that on the occasion after Stevenson had been in town in relation to the United Nations Day.
Mr. JENNER. Adlai Stevenson?
Mrs. PAINE. Adlai Stevenson, and Lee had been to a meeting of the National Indignation Committee held another night that week, and he was at our home the following Friday night and commented that he didn't like General Walker. This is the only thing I heard from him on the subject.
Representative BOGGS. Did he ever express any violence toward General Walker?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Representative BOGGS. Did he ever discuss President Kennedy with you?
Mrs. PAINE. He never mentioned Kennedy at all.
Representative BOGGS. Did you see the rifle that he had in the room in your home?
Mrs. PAINE. In the garage, no.
Representative BOGGS. In the garage, you never saw one?
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Mrs. PAINE. I never saw that rifle at all until the police showed it to me in the station on the 22d of November.
Representative BOGGS. Were you at home when the FBI interviewed Marina and Lee?
Mrs. PAINE. The FBI never interviewed Marina and me; I was waiting to hear your question.
Representative BOGGS. At your home?
Mrs. PAINE. The FBI never interviewed Marina and Lee at my home. The FBI was there one afternoon and talked to Marina through me; they never saw Lee Oswald in my home. I told them he would be there on a weekend.
Representative BOGGS. Did you ever discuss politics with Marina?
Mrs. PAINE. As close as we would come, I would say, would be what I have mentioned about Madam Nhu; she was interested in what the family would do. She also said to me that she thought Khrushchev was a rather coarse, country person. She said that she admired Mrs. Kennedy a great deal, and liked, this is all before, liked President Kennedy very much.
Mr. JENNER. This was all before November 22?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Representative BOGGS. Were you aware of the fact that Lee returned to your home the night before the assassination?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Representative BOGGS. Were you curious about that in view of the fact that he seldom came except on weekends?
Mrs. PAINE. It was the first time he had come without asking permission to come. He came after he and his wife had quarreled, and Marina and I said to one another, we took this to be as close as he could come to an apology, and an effort to make up.
Representative BOGGS. That was the reason you thought he had come?
Mrs. PAINE. But I didn't inquire of him.
Representative BOGGS. You did not know that the next morning when he left he had a rifle?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Representative BOGGS. Did you see him when he left that morning?
Mrs. PAINE. No, I didn't.
Representative BOGGS. Have you been active in politics yourself?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I vote. And I am a member of the League of Women Voters, that is the extent of my activity.
Representative BOGGS. Do you belong to any other political organizations?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Have you ever belonged?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Representative BOGGS. Are you, I don't know quite how to state this question, are you a practicing Quaker?
Mrs. PAINE. I am. I am also a pacifist.
Representative BOGGS. You are a pacifist?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Representative BOGGS. You are not a Marxist?
Mrs. PAINE. No; they don't go together, in fact. You can't believe violent overthrow and be a pacifist.
Mr. DULLES. Did you know Norman Thomas quite well?
Mrs. PAINE. When I was 8 I went to a rally of Norman Thomas in New York City. That was my only contact.
Representative BOGGS. Is your feeling towards Marina, shall I say in the Quaker spirit of friendship and hospitality, was that the main objective, plus the intellectual?
Mrs. PAINE. I was interested in the language.
Representative BOGGS. Intellectual stimulation of the language.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. I found that while living with her, I could say that this day, at least added something to what I knew, what I--I learned a few more words.
Representative BOGGS. You never formed any opinion about Lee Oswald as a person?
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Mrs. PAINE. I formed many, and I would like to make that a special area.
Representative BOGGS. Would you just tell me just in a sentence or two, know you could go into it in greater detail, but was your opinion favorable? Was it unfavorable, or what?
Mrs. PAINE. I disliked him actively in the spring when I thought he just wanted to get rid of his wife and wasn't caring about her, wasn't concerned whether she would go to the doctor. I then found him much nicer, I thought, when I saw him next in New Orleans in late September, and this would be a perfectly good time to admit the rest of the pertinent part of this letter to my mother written October 14, because it shows something that I think should be part of the public record, and I am one of the few people who can give it, that presents Lee Oswald as a human person, a person really rather ordinary, not an ogre that was out to leave his wife, and be harsh and hostile to all that he knew.
But in this brief period during the times that he came out on weekends, I saw him as a person who cared for his wife and his child, tried to make himself helpful in my home, tried to make himself welcome although he really preferred to stay to himself.
He wasn't much to take up a conversation. This says, "Dear More," this is from Commission Exhibit No. 425, "Lee Oswald is looking for work in Dallas. Did my last letter say so? Probably not. He arrived a week and a half ago and has been looking for work since. It is a very depressing business for him, am sure. He spent last weekend and the one before with us here and was a happy addition to our expanded family. He played with Chris"--my 3-year-old, then 2-- "watched football on the TV, planed down the doors that wouldn't close, they had shifted and generally added a needed masculine flavor"----
Mr. JENNER. Wait a second.
Mrs. PAINE. "And generally added a needed masculine flavor. From a poor first impression I have come to like him. We saw the doctor at Parkland Hospital last Friday and all seems very healthy" and this refers to Marina. "It appears that charges will be geared to their ability to pay."
Representative BOGGS. Were you----
Mrs. PAINE. May I go on?
Representative BOGGS. Yes; surely. Finish.
Mrs. PAINE. This was an intervening section where he was the most human that I saw him, and, of course, it has been followed by my anger with him, and all the feeling that most of us have about his act. But it seems to me important, very important, to the record that we face the fact that this man was not only human but a rather ordinary one in many respects, and who appeared ordinary.
If we think that this was a man such as we might never meet, a great aberration from the normal, someone who would stand out in a crowd as unusual. then we don't know this man, we have no means of recognizing such a person again in advance of a crime such as he committed.
The important thing, I feel, and the only protection we have is to realize how human he was though he added to it this sudden and great violence beyond-----
Representative BOGGS. You have no doubt about the fact that he assassinated President Kennedy?
Mrs. PAINE. I have no present doubt.
Representative BOGGS. Do you have any reason to believe he was associated with anyone else in this act or it was part of a conspiracy?
Mrs. PAINE. I have no reason to believe he was associated with anyone.
Representative BOGGS. Did you ever see him talking with anyone else, in conversation with anybody else or get mail at your home?
Mrs. PAINE. I never saw him talking with anyone else. He received all his mail from home, third class for the most part perhaps one letter from Russia.
Representative BOGGS. Did he have telephone calls at your home of a mysterious nature?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, did he ever have a telephone call at your home mysterious or otherwise?
Mrs. PAINE. No; never.
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Representative BOGGS. You then would be surprised if he were part of any group?
Mrs. PAINE. I would be very surprised. For one thing, I judged, I had to wonder whether this man was a spy or someone dangerous to our Nation. He had been to the Soviet Union and he had come back and he didn't go as a tourist. He went by his own admission intending to become a Soviet citizen and then came back.
Representative BOGGS. What about Marina--go ahead and finish.
Mrs. PAINE. Then the FBI came, as I thought they well might, interested in this man who had been to the Soviet Union, and I felt that if he had associations this would be very easy for them to know. I didn't see any, but would tend to point to the possibility of his being a spy or subversive. But I didn't see any such and I felt happy that they were charged with the responsibility of knowing about it.
Representative BOGGS. Did you see any indication of any connection of Marina with any group that might be considered unusual?
Mrs. PAINE. No; no one called her.
Representative BOGGS. Did she have any letters?
Mrs. PAINE. She received a letter from a friend in the Soviet Union which she showed to me and mentioned to me.
Representative BOGGS. Was this just a normal letter?
Mrs. PAINE. Girl friend.
Representative BOGGS. What is your present relationship with Marina?
Mrs. PAINE. I have seen her once since the assassination. That was a week ago Monday. It was the first time since the morning of the 23d when she left my house, both of us expecting she would come back to it that evening. In the intervening period I wrote her a collection of letters trying to determine what her feelings were and whether it was suitable for me to write and see her.
I am presently confused, as I was then, as to how to best be a friend to her. I don't know what is appropriate in this situation.
By that I mean during the time I was writing the letters to her and not getting an answer when she was with Mr. Martin.
Representative BOGGS. Was your conversation last Monday friendly?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Representative BOGGS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, thank you, Mrs. Paine.
Mr. McCLOY. Might I ask one question?
You said that Lee had mentioned General Walker and indicated that he didn't like General Walker. Can you elaborate on that a little bit, to what extent, how violent was he in his expression?
Mrs. PAINE. No; it wasn't violent at all. It was more of, oh, well, more not giving him much credit even, but it was done briefly, this was in passing, so my recollection is hazy. But certainly there was no strong expression.
Mr. McCLOY. No vehemence about it?
Mrs. PAINE. Absolutely not, I would have remembered that. And I recall that Marina said nothing.
Mr. McCLOY. Yes.
Mr. DULLES. You mentioned that Lee did not receive any calls at your house. Did he make any telephone calls?
Mrs. PAINE. I heard him call what he said was the "Time." You know, he dialed, listened and hung up, and then he told us what time it was. That is all his social contact.
Mr. McCLOY. This is only on one occasion that he spoke of General Walker?
Mrs. PAINE. Just that one in my hearing, apropos of a discussion that was already begun.
Mr. McCLOY. We have rather interrupted the sequence of your questioning.
Mr. JENNER. That is all right.
Representative BOGGS. There is one item I might bring out along the line you were inquiring about.
You gave some consideration, did you not, Mrs. Paine, during this period, as to whether Mr. Oswald, Lee Harvey Oswald, could or might have been a Russian agent.
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Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And we discussed this yesterday, as I recall?
Mrs. PAINE. Briefly.
Mr. JENNER. And what conclusions did you come to on that score and why?
Mrs. PAINE. I thought that he was not very intelligent. I saw as far as I could see he had no particular contacts. He was not a person I would have hired for a job of any sort, no more than I would have let him borrow my car.
Mr. JENNER. Did you give consideration in that connection? Did his level of intelligence affect your judgment as to whether the Russian Government would have hired him?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. How did it affect you?
Mrs. PAINE. I doubted they would have hired him. I kept my mind open on it to wonder.
Mr. JENNER. And you had doubt why?
Mrs. PAINE. Simply because he had gone to the Soviet Union and announced that he wanted to stay, and then came back, and I wasn't convinced that he liked America.
Mr. JENNER. Did your judgment of him, and as to his level of intelligence, affect your decision ultimately that the Russian Government might not or would not have hired him because he was not a man of capacity to serve in such a way for the Russian Government?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; that affected my judgment.
Mr. DULLES. Have you any idea as to his motivation in the act, in light of what you have said in the assassination?
Mrs. PAINE. It is conjecture, of course, but I feel he always felt himself to be a small person; and he was right. That he wanted to be greater, or noticed, and Marina had said of him he thinks he is so big and fine, and he should take a more realistic view of himself and not be so conceited.
(At this point, Representative Ford entered the hearing room.)
Mrs. PAINE. And I feel that he acted much more from the emotional pushings within him than from any rational set of ideas, and--
Mr. DULLES. Emotional pushings toward aggrandizement you have in mind is what you said?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. McCLOY. When you testified earlier this morning, Mrs. Paine, about the
dry sighting of the rifle, you know what dry sighting is, don't you?
Mrs. PAINE. I found out last night.
Mr. McCLOY. You found that out last night?
Senator COOPER. Tell her to describe it then.
Mrs. PAINE. Shall I try to describe it? See if I know? It involves holding the rifle and as if to fire and pulling the trigger, but without any ammunition in it. Going through the motions and, therefore, wiggling it and having to resight it.
Representative FORD. Going through the motions?
Mrs. PAINE. Of ejecting something.
Senator COOPER. A dry run.
Mr. JENNER. Is that sufficient, Senator?
Mrs. PAINE. Do I understand it?
Mr. McCLOY. That is a pretty good description, it is just as well as I can give.
Representative FORD. You actually saw him doing this?
Mrs. PAINE. No, he showed me last night how it was done.
Mr. McCLOY. We had testimony this morning whether he had an opportunity to dry sight the rifle in his New Orleans house.
Mrs. PAINE. I was just discussing what would be visible in the front of his house.
Mr. JENNER. We were having some testimony, Representative Ford, of Lee Harvey Oswald's dry sighting of the rifle when he was in New Orleans.
Representative FORD. Marina so testified when she was here.
Mr. McCLOY. You don't purport to say it was impossible for him to do it without observation but it was difficult.
Mrs. PAINE. It was difficult.
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My then 2-year-old boy found a number of boys with trucks to play with right on that immediate driveway or alley as it is marked on the paper and small boys would have been very interested and they went right by there and Marina complained that Junie couldn't get her nap because there were so many children.
Mr. McCLOY. He could have done it very early in the morning without observation?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. DULLES. Have you any idea generally how Lee Oswald used his time, I mean when you weren't observing him when he wasn't at your house? Did he talk, tell you how he used his time? Did he use it on television? What I am trying to get at is--is there a great deal of time he had available to him that there is no way of knowing what he did. But did he talk about that, did he give you an idea of what he was, how he occupied himself, reading, television?
Mrs. PAINE. Talking just about the time after October 4 when he was--
Mr. DULLES. Yes; let's take it in that period.
Mrs. PAINE. I knew he was occupied with looking for a job.
Mr. DULLES. Yes.
Mrs. PAINE. How much of the day this occupied him, of course, I didn't know. I didn't see him. Then he got the job, and I judge that occupied him more fully. He spoke of one evening meeting he went to, this National Indignation Committee meeting.
Mr. DULLES. What about other evenings? Do you know anything about other evenings when he wasn't with you?
Mrs. PAINE. Except for the one in which he accompanied my husband to a Civil Liberties Union meeting.
Mr. DULLES. All right.
Mr. McCLOY. Did you, at any stage of your life while you were, whether living with your husband or apart from him, did you ever contemplate inviting anyone to come and live with you in anything like the manner in which you did invite Marina?
Mrs. PAINE. My mother completed her studies at Oberlin College in February, and we talked-----
Mr. JENNER. February 1963?
Mrs. PAINE. No; just now, February of 1964 and we talked about the possibility as long ago as last summer of 1963, we talked about the possibility of her coming and staying for several months. I said I was tired of living alone. This is not exactly comparable, but it also is a search for a roommate.
Mr. McCLOY. But apart from your mother, there was no one similarly situated to Marina, whom you thought of inviting to live with you?
Mrs. PAINE. No one situated similarly that I knew either.
Mr. McCLOY. No; you didn't invite anyone?
Mrs. PAINE. Didn't make any other such invitation.
Mr. McCLOY. Anyone to live with you.
Mr. JENNER. Before returning to the automobile and somewhat along the tail end at least of Representative Boggs' inquiries of you, did you ever give any consideration, Mrs. Paine, to the possibility that Lee Harvey Oswald might have been employed by some agency of the Government of the United States?
Mrs. PAINE. I never gave that any consideration.
Mr. JENNER. None whatsoever?
Mrs. PAINE. None whatsoever.
Mr. JENNER. It never occurred to you at any time?
Mrs. PAINE. It never occurred to me at any time.
Mr. JENNER. That is all on that.
Was the absence of its occurring to you based on your overall judgment of Lee Harvey Oswald and his lack, as you say, of, not a highly intelligent man?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. There was some reason why you gave it no thought, is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE. That, and he was not in a position to know anything of use to either Government. I am questioning myself.
Mr. JENNER. Would you please elaborate?
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Mrs. PAINE. As regards he might be a Soviet agent, what does this man know that would be of interest to anybody or what could you find out, and you judge he didn't know anything that the Soviets might be interested in, and, as I say, I never gave it any thought of the possibility of his being employed by this Government.
Mr. JENNER. Now, Representative Ford, Mrs. Paine had been relating to us her experiences with Lee Harvey Oswald with respect to his ability to operate an automobile, and she has up to this moment revealed some things to us which we had not known of and it is something that is causing the staff considerable concern. This is his ability to drive which is a proper connection with his visit to Mexico in some one or two instances and also his escape or his attempted escape and other elements.
We interrupted the chronology to have Mrs. Paine state fully everything she knows on this particular subject.
Representative FORD. It is important.
Mr. JENNER. If we can recall just about where you were because I would like to have you pick it up just exactly where you were in this chronology.
Mrs. PAINE. I had about completed the full statement Of what I saw of his driving.
I will pick up by repeating when he turned a right angle corner he would turn too far and have to correct. I will complete now by describing my teaching him to park.
Mr. JENNER. Was this on that same Sunday afternoon?
Mrs. PAINE. There were, I think, three altogether, but I am not certain. This is the only particular reference.
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, but I think, Mr. Chairman, Representative Ford. Mrs. Paine has related to us something we had not known. that this Sunday afternoon-
Mrs. PAINE. October 13.
Mr. JENNER. October 13, when she sought to instruct Lee Harvey Oswald on the local parking lot--was it by a shopping center?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. That he had gotten into the car, in the driveway, with the key and had turned on the motor of the car, had backed it up into the street.
Mrs. PAINE. And then proceeded to drive to the shopping center.
Mr. JENNER. With Mrs. Paine.
Mrs. PAINE. While I complained.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine complaining because she was concerned; she is the daughter of an insurance actuary.
Mrs. PAINE. In my complaint I simply said that I would drive back, and that I didn't want him to drive on the street, but I didn't insist that he stop at that moment.
Mr. JENNER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mrs. PAINE. I recall one other afternoon when he practiced just parking directly in front of our house, and when, as I say, after he had done this he wanted me to drive the car into the driveway, that being a little harder to do.
Mr. JENNER. Where did you keep your car ordinarily, in the driveway?
Mrs. PAINE. Always in the driveway in front of our house; the garage itself is too full of many other things.
Mr. JENNER. Did you leave the key in the car?
Mrs. PAINE. I never leave the key in the car; I always lock it.
Mr. JENNER. That was your habit with respect to the ignition key?
Mrs. PAINE. I always lock the car and leave the ignition key in my purse.
Mr. JENNER. You never leave the ignition key around your home?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, my purse was in the home.
Mr. JENNER. So it was not in the open?
Mrs. PAINE. He had to go in the purse, never. Just how he got the car started, I recall my shock that he had. But I must have laid out the key or something because I did not intend for him to start it.
Mr. JENNER. You didn't give him the key on that occasion to go out and start the motor?
Mrs. PAINE. Absolutely not.
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Mr. JENNER. But when you came out of the house he had already started the motor and backed the car into the street?
Mrs. PAINE. No, no; I let him back it out.
Mr. JENNER. You did?
Mrs. PAINE. I was deciding what I was going to do.
Mr. DULLES. You were in the car at that time?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, I had gotten in the car at that time.
Representative FORD. And he was in the driver's seat?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Representative FORD. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Was he in the driver's seat when you came out of the house?
Mr. PAINE. That is my recollection. Then, referring now to the practice of his parking.
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, Representative Ford, the witness had also related to us, which we had not known, when she came to New Orleans in the spring to bring Marina from Irving to New Orleans, that Lee Harvey Oswald told her that he had driven his uncle's car, one of the Murrets, in New Orleans on the street.
Go ahead.
Representative FORD. Perhaps 1 should say that I have been absent for a half hour or so attending a very important committee meeting, so I didn't get this story from the outset and I appreciate being brought up to date on it.
Mrs. PAINE. There were two occasions when we practiced parking, one in the larger parking lot just backing into, pretending there were cars there to back between, as in parallel parking, and another occasion directly in front of my house. On this second occasion directly in front of my house he finally learned how to do it. He had had a bad time, getting his wheels too cramped and not getting in, and getting his wheels straightened out, a beginner's mistakes.
Finally, I got into the car and told him when to start reversing the twist on his wheel and cramp, and he said, so soon. It was a surprise. It didn't feel to him it was time already to start coming out of the turn.
And then he saw that it was when he then got into the parking place correctly, and quite soon got the feel of it but this was clearly his first experience doing it right, and then he practiced doing it right several times, and he learned quite well, I thought.
(At this point, Chief Justice Warren entered the hearing room.)
Representative FORD. On these subsequent occasions did he ask you to help him or did he take the keys and do it on his own initiative?
Mrs. PAINE. No, he never took the keys. I offered to give him--give Lee lessons on Sunday afternoons and we managed to do it a few Sunday afternoons, I think three altogether and there were a couple of weekends when we didn't get the lesson in, something intervened.
Representative FORD. This was in October of 1963?
Mrs. PAINE. October and November. I think the last lesson was November 10, being the last Sunday.
Mr. DULLES. What progress did he make over that period?
Mrs. PAINE. Considerable.
Mr. DULLES. Reasonable progress?
Mrs. PAINE. Very reasonable progress. I thought he learned well, as I have
said, both backing and to make a right-angle turn, and really began to understand the feeling of parking.
Representative FORD. Did he indicate to you when he might apply for a driver's license?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. Oh, yes. Thank you. It is a whole new section.
Mr. JENNER. I was about to go into that.
Mr. DULLES. There was some testimony on that point, I believe.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Representative FORD. Mr. Frazier testified that Oswald mentioned to him that he was going to or had, 1 am not sure which, and I was wondering whether he mentioned it to you?
Mr. DULLES. Got in line.
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Mrs. PAINE. Yes, on November 9, which was election day, Saturday, in Texas.
Mr. JENNER. This was the weekend he was home?
Mrs. PAINE. This was the weekend that he was home, which was the last weekend he was home, don't call it home though.
Mr. JENNER. I am sorry. It was the last weekend that he was at your home?
Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And he arrived the previous day, evening or late afternoon?
Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Now starting with that Friday afternoon, please relate the course of events?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, I will say that we went Saturday morning to a station in Dallas where you can take the written test and eye test that permits you to get a learner's permit, but when we got there that is all of us, children, Lee, Marina and myself, driving in my car to Oak Cliff--when we got there it was closed, being election day. I hadn't thought, realized that this would mean it would be closed. So we returned. The next weekend---
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, before you reach that.
Mrs. PAINE. Right.
Mr. JENNER. Are you reasonably certain that he came home or came to Irving the previous afternoon?
Mrs. PAINE. Certainly.
Mr. JENNER. Perhaps to refresh your recollection, do you remember a weekend in which Lee Harvey Oswald called from Dallas and said to Marina that he would not be in that Friday afternoon because he was going to do some job hunting the next morning, and that he would come the next day? Could it be that this was that weekend?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, he had already had 'a job that weekend, didn't he? So he wouldn't have been job hunting. I recall he was there in the morning, Saturday morning.
Mr. JENNER. Looking for another job?
Mrs. PAINE. Oh, Well, no.
Mr. JENNER. You don't recall any discussion of his being dissatisfied with
the job at the Texas School Book Depository?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. And was undertaking to look for another job?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. There is no discussion?
Mrs. PAINE. There is one Saturday that he came out later but that was still in October. It was the second weekend that he came out, altogether he came out on the weekend of the 4th, so he would have come out on October 12, Saturday. It doesn't check with my recollection.
Mr. JENNER. So just to make sure, it is your present recollection that you can recall no occasion when you were advised by Marina or directly that Lee Harvey Oswald called and said he would not be in on that particular Friday but would come the next day?
Mrs. PAINE. I would be quite certain it was not that weekend. It is possible that this happened, I don't recall any discussion, nor did I have any idea that there had been any occasion when he had to look for a different job.
Mr. JENNER. Never any discussion on that subject?
Mrs. PAINE. Never.
Just to complete the discussion of automobile driving, I will go on to the next weekend then when he did not come out to my house, but I----
Representative FORD. That would be the weekend of the 18th?
Mrs. PAINE. Just prior to the assassination. The 16th I was having a birthday party for my little girl and said I couldn't possibly take him again to this place so he could take a test. But that he didn't need a car. This was news to him. He thought he needed a car for his initial test, learner's permit. I said he could go himself from Dallas.
Mr. JENNER. This was a conversation between you and Lee Oswald?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. How did it take place?
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Mrs. PAINE. It must have been by phone.
Mr. JENNER. Did he call you or did you call him?
Mrs. PAINE. He called to the house nearly, every night around 5:30 to talk to Marina. And Marina suggested to him that he wouldn't, shouldn't come out that weekend because I was having a birthday party and it had been a long weekend, the prior weekend. She didn't want him to wear out Iris welcome, and then I said to him he could still try to get--
Mr. JENNER. You did talk with him on the telephone?
Mrs. PAINE. That is my recollection. I am certain that I talked with him, that he was surprised that he didn't need a car. I had to tell him that he didn't need a car to take with him to take his test.
Mr. JENNER. Take his initial test?
Mrs. PAINE. Take his test, and suggested that he go from Dallas himself to take this test. Then he called us Saturday afternoon of the 16th to say he had been and tried to get his driver's permit but that he had arrived before closing time but still to late to get in because there was a long line ahead of him, the place having been closed both the previous Saturday for election day and the following Monday, the 11th, Veterans Day. There were a lot of people who wanted to get permits and he was advised that it wouldn't pay him to wait in line. He didn't have time to be tested.
Mr. JENNER. Could you help us fix, can you recall as closely as possible the day
of the week, this is the weekend of the assassination, was it not?
Mrs. PAINE. The weekend before.
Mr. JENNER. The weekend before, and this conversation you are now relating that you had with him in which he said that he had gone to the driver's license station, when did that conversation with you take place?
Mrs. PAINE. That conversation was with Marina, and she told me about it.
Mr. JENNER. When did she tell you about it?
Mrs. PAINE. He called her, it must have been Saturday afternoon, soon after he had been, he went Saturday morning and they closed at noon.
Mr. JENNER. I see. This was the weekend he did not come out to Irving?
Mrs. PAINE. This was the weekend he did not come out.
Mr. JENNER. The weekend in which you had your birthday party for your son was it?
Mrs. PAINE. It was either that same afternoon or it was possibly Sunday, I don't recall. It is important though. I wish I could recall when his call to her was. Since it relates to the problem of when I dialed his number.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, I have marked as Commission Exhibit No. 426 a form or document which purports to be a driver's permit or driver's license permit application by Lee Harvey Oswald. It is a one-page form document on heavy board, or at least heavy paper.
Are you familiar sufficiently with the handwriting or handprinting of Lee Harvey Oswald to be able to tell us whether the writing and handprinting on that document is or is not Lee Harvey Oswald's?
Mrs. PAINE. I am not sufficiently familiar. I can simply compare it with m only other thing I have seen in his printing which is what he wrote down in my diary.
Mr. JENNER. Refreshing your recollection in that respect and looking at the exhibit, if you are able to do so, would you give us your opinion as to whether the exhibit is in the handwriting or handprinting of Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mrs. PAINE. I think it very likely is.
Mr. JENNER. In your short talk with Lee Harvey Oswald on the subject of his having gone to the license application department in Dallas, was anything said about his actually having filled out a driver's license or a learner's permit application?
Mrs. PAINE. No; nothing.
Mr. DULLES. Could we have the date of this document?
Mr. JENNER. If it is dated. My recollection is it is not.
Mrs. PAINE. His birthday is on it only. Picked up at his room on the date of
the assassination. I guess it was picked up, I don't know.
Mr. JENNER. Could I review this with you a little bit? Did Lee Harvey Oswald on this occasion tell you in the course of what limited telephone conversation
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you had with him, that he had gone to the driver's license application bureau?
Mrs. PAINE. No; he told Marina.
Mr. JENNER. And did--he told Marina and then Marina in turn told you?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. How near the time of the telephone conversation?
Mrs. PAINE. She told me immediately.
Mr. JENNER. Did Marina tell you?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. She just turned from the phone and told you at once?
Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. This was spontaneous?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. It may have been while she was still on the phone, I don't recall, but it certainly was immediate.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Dulles, to answer your question the document is not dated.
Representative FORD. I was just noticing in the upper right-hand corner on the one side he lists his occupation as photographer.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; this is so.
Mrs. PAINE. This is what he wanted to do, not what he was doing.
Mr. JENNER. Would you please relate to the Commission what your impression of what his occupation was or occupation had been during the period of time that you had known him?
Mrs. PAINE. When I first met him he was working at Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall. And had expressed himself as liking his work. I gathered that it was a kind of copying or making up of advertising layout, develop a photographic process.
When we arrived at New Orleans he pointed to a building where he was working. I saw no writing on the outside of the building. He said--no, first on the phone when he first called to say he had a job, he said he was doing work similar to what he had been doing, photographic type of work.
Representative FORD. Work in Dallas?
Mrs. PAINE. He called to us in Dallas from New Orleans to say he was doing such work.
Mr. JENNER. In New Orleans?
Mrs. PAINE. Subsequently, I have heard it is not so, but this is what he told Marina and she told me over the phone. He said, and she told me immediately over the phone, that he was getting $1.50 an hour instead of $1.25 he had been getting, and then in New Orleans he pointed to a building where he was working, somewhere along the river, near the French Quarter. but a big large brick building with no particular designation on it. I don't know what sort of building it was, but he said it was the photo outfit where he was working then.
When he was looking for a job he said, now, in October, early October, he came back to the Dallas area and he was looking for a job, he said he was hopeful of getting similar work again, photographic layout, whatever it was. But that he was pleased to get any job that would produce an income.
Mr. DULLES. For the Commission's information, Mr. Jenner, is this not, that is Exhibit No. 426, a form which Lee Oswald apparently took home, or filled out somewhere, either his home or at the office, but it was never sworn to and is not signed.
Mr. JENNER. That is correct.
Mr. DULLES. It is not a completed document. It has no date on it.
Mr. JENNER. It is my information and there will be testimony and that is why I didn't go into the document, that it was found in his, among his effects in his room on Beckley Street. With permission, I might describe the document possibly a little more in detail in view of the interest and the question. At the top of the document under name there is hand printing on this form, first the form is entitled "Application for Texas Driver's License."
Mrs. PAINE. May I interrupt?
(Whereupon, at 12:45 o'clock the President's Commission recessed.)
517
TESTIMONY Volume III
Hearings Before the President's Commission
on the
Assassination of President Kennedy
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thursday, March 19, 1964-Afternoon Session
TESTIMONY OF RUTH HYDE PAINE RESUMED
The President's Commission reconvened at 2:05 p.m.
Mr. JENNER. May we proceed, Mr. Chairman?
Mr. McCLOY. Yes; we are all ready whenever you are. You are still under affirmation.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, may I hand you the document again?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. It has been marked Commission Exhibit 426. You were making a comparison with the block printing on that document with like block printing that you testified yesterday had been written in your address book. I have forgotten the exhibit number, but in your address book which you have before you----
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And the printing in your address book to which you were addressing yourself was what?
Mrs. PAINE. His printing of the place where he worked in April of 1963.
Mr. JENNER. And that is Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall?
Mrs. PAINE. Right.
Mr. JENNER. You were comparing that printing which you saw him put in your address book with what?
Mrs. PAINE. The printing on this application for Texas driver's license.
Mr. JENNER. And any particular printing on that application?
Mrs. PAINE. Was put in in pen. I do observe that the printing here uses a mixture of upper case and lower case letters, as does the printing in my phone book, most of it being block upper case.
Mr. JENNER. The form and shape of the printing in both of the documents is--
Mrs. PAINE. Is similar.
Mr. JENNER. Similar. All right, thank you. Mr. Chairman, because of the point raised by Representative Ford with particular reference to the word "photographer" which, by the way, is misspelled, it is spelled "f-o-t-o-g-r-a-p-e-r," and things of that sort do occur as you have already noted in many of his writings, very bad misspellings.
Mr. McCLOY. Yes, his grammar seems to be better than this spelling.
Mr. JENNER. Yes. This form is an official form printed of the Texas State License Bureau entitled "Application for Texas driver's license," on the line provided for "name" there appears over "first name", "Lee"; over "middle name", "Harvey"; and "last name", "Oswald."
The second set of spaces, provisions for address, birth, and occupation. He gives as his address, 2545 West Fifth Street, Irving, Tex. Was that the address of their home when you first became acquainted with them?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Is the address 2545 Irving Street familiar to you?
Mrs. PAINE. I think it is 2515.
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Mr. JENNER. Perhaps we will have to have it interpreted by someone else. It looks like a "4" to me, but it may be a "1." This birthday, October 18, 1939. The age last birthday 24, and then under "occupation" appears the word I have already related. Sex, male; color of eyes, gray; weight, 146 pounds; race, the letter "C"; color of hair, brown; height, 5 foot 9 inches.
Mr. McCLOY. Were you about to comment?
Mrs. PAINE. I was interested in his comment on his race.
Mr. JENNER. I assume C means Caucasian. There are a series of questions, printed questions on the form, and he answered them, they are from 1 to 12, as follows:
"Question No. 1" he answers in the negative, "Have you ever held a Texas license?"
Question No. 2. All these are in the negative.
"Have you ever been examined for a Texas license?
"Have you ever held a license in any other State?
"Have you ever been denied a license?
"Has your license and driving privilege ever been suspended, revoked, or canceled?
"Have you ever been convicted of driving while intoxicated, failure to stop and render aid, aggravated assault with a motor vehicle, negligent homicide with a motor vehicle or murder with a motor vehicle?"
All answered in the negative.
"Have you ever been convicted of any other moving traffic violation?
"Have you ever been involved as a driver in a motor vehicle accident?
"Have you ever been subject to losses of consciousness or muscular control?
"Have you ever been addicted to the use of intoxicating liquor or narcotic drugs?
"Do you have any physical or mental defects?"
And, lastly: "Have you ever been a patient in a hospital for mental illness?"
The side as to the driving record, that is the reverse side, nothing appears thereon, and nothing in any portion of the form which deals with the record of his examination.
I am a little at a loss, Mr. Chairman, as to whether I should offer this in evidence at the present moment, because it is a document found among his effects in his room, and my statement of fact would be pure hearsay.
Mr. McCLOY. How did we get in possession of it?
Mr. JENNER. It was supplied to us by the FBI.
The document was turned over to the FBI. May I withhold offering the document in evidence? We may have another witness who will be able to qualify it.
Mr. McCLOY. Who can identify it?
Mr. JENNER. I am sure we will have a witness. We do want the document in evidence.
[Commission Exhibit No. 426 is also Commission Exhibit No. 112, vol. I, p. 113.]
Identifying as Commission Exhibit 427 a form of employee identification questionnaire of the Jaggars- Chiles-Stovall Co. Please examine Exhibit 427. I direct your attention to the signature in the lower left-hand corner. Are you familiar with that signature?
Mrs. PAINE. I can't say I am familiar with it.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever have any discussion with Lee Oswald relating to his obtaining of a position with Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And when did that discussion occur?
Mrs. PAINE. In New Orleans on the second trip, the end of September, when we talked about the possibility of Marina's coming back to have the baby in Texas where they could qualify as one year residents, he equipped me to show that he had been in Texas, and in Dallas for a year by giving me a receipt or part of a paycheck, I don't know just what it was, with the Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall name on it, in October.
Mr. JENNER. What was the purpose--
Mrs. PAINE. He was supplying me with documents that would admit her to Parkland Hospital as a patient. He gave me his--
Mr. JENNER. To show the necessary--
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Mrs. PAINE. That he had worked with Stovall.
Mr. JENNER. And the necessary residential period of time in Texas?
Mrs. PAINE. And the necessary residence.
Mr. JENNER. I see.
Did you take that document with you?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did.
Mr. JENNER. And what did you do with it?
Mrs. PAINE. Took it to Parkland Hospital. And subsequently returned it to him.
Mr. JENNER. For what purpose had you gone to Parkland Hospital?
Mrs. PAINE. For prenatal care and care at the time of the birth of Marina Oswald's second child.
Mr. JENNER. And is Parkland Hospital a public institution in Dallas?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. With the necessary residential period of time, Marina, if she had qualified in that respect, or did qualify then she could receive treatment with respect to the birth of her child either at no cost to her or at reduced cost, is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE. I understood it to be cost fitted to their ability to pay.
Mr. JENNER. And so you did, yourself, affirmatively arrange that?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right. What arrangement?
Mr. JENNER. Affirmatively. You did it yourself?
Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes.
Mr. JENNER. We have now reached the summer period of 1963, and covered some of it in part. My recollection of your testimony is that you vacationed in the summer of 1963.
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. You visited various members of your family up north?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You departed Irving, Tex., some time in July, is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE. I believe it was the 27th of July.
Mr. JENNER. And just tell us whom of your family you visited and where you visited, without telling us what you did.
Mrs. PAINE. I visited my mother-in-law and stepfather-in-law.
Mr. JENNER. That is Mr. and Mrs. Young, Arthur Young?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. In Paoli, Pa.?
Mrs. PAINE. I first went to Naushon Island off the coast of Massachusetts.
Mr. JENNER. Were you driving in the station wagon?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I was.
Mr. JENNER. With your children?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you went from there to where? Whom did. you visit next?
Mrs. PAINE. How detailed do you want to be?
Mr. JENNER. Just tell us whom you visited us all.
Mrs. PAINE. I stopped and saw Miss Mary Forman, in Connecticut, one night.
Mr. JESTER. She is an old friend of yours?
Mrs. PAINE. She is an old friend of mine from Columbus, Ohio, and went on then to Paoli the next day, and stayed there, again with the Youngs, until the early part of September.
Mr. McCLOY. Is that Paoli, Pa.?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Did you visit your mother and your father or either of them?
Mrs. PAINE. My father came to Paoli and visited me there.
Mr. JENNER. Did I ask you yesterday, Mrs. Paine, and please forgive me if this is a repetition, the occupation of your father.
Mrs. PAINE. He is an insurance underwriter; he composes the fine print.
Mr. JENNER. Was he at one time an actuary?
Mrs. PAINE. What does actuary mean?
Mr. JENNER. A man who computes the probabilities and works in connection with----
Mrs. PAINE. He may be. I am not certain exactly what his position is.
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Mr. JENNER. For what company, please?
Mrs. PAINE. The Nationwide Insurance Company.
Mr. JENNER. Where is there main office?
Mrs. PAINE. In Columbus, Ohio.
Mr. JENNER. Your father visited you at Paoli. Did you see your mother during that summer period?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did. I saw her briefly on the way to Naushon Island, and then again I saw her on my way back to the south and west, in Columbus, Ohio.
Mr. JENNER. At Columbus, she was living there then?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you see your sister on that trip?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did.
Mr. JENNER. And where did you see her?
Mrs. PAINE. She lives in suburban Washington, and I saw here there at her home. I also saw Michael's brother, and his wife, who live in Baltimore.
Mr. JENNER. Would you identify Michael's brother, please?
Mrs. PAINE. His name is Cameron Paine, C-a-m-e-r-o-n.
Mr. JENNER. What is his occupation or business?
Mrs. PAINE. He works with Social Security.
Mr. JENNER. For the State or the United States Government?
Mrs. PAINE. For the United States Government.
Mr. JENNER. That covers generally the people you visited that summer?
Mrs. PAINE. No. I also visited by brother, in Yellow Springs, Ohio.
Mr. JENNER. That is your brother, the physician?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right. I visited with friends in the Philadelphia area, while I was at Paoli.
Mr. JENNER. Do you mean by the term "friends" there to mean in the sense would mean friends?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Or members of the Friends Society?
Mrs. PAINE. Some were both, but I meant it as personal friends. And then I saw also friends, also both, capital F and small, in Richmond, Ind., and then from there I headed directly south to New Orleans. (Discussion off the record. )
Mrs. PAINE. Shall I go on to arrival at New Orleans?
Mr. JENNER. This spanned a period of a little over 2 months, did it not?
Mrs. PAINE. It was just short of 2 months total that I was away from my home in Irving.
Mr. JENNER. And in the meantime you had had the correspondence with Marina that you had related this morning, during the course of your going along, had you?
Mrs. PAINE. During that vacation she and I exchanged one letter each.
Mr. JENNER. Yes. Had you advised her that you were coming to New Orleans?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. For what purpose?
Mrs. PAINE. To visit. And to talk.
Mr. JENNER. About what?
Mrs. PAINE. To see if it was appropriate for her to come to my house for the birth of the baby.
Mr. JENNER. At that moment, at that time, when you were about to return or about to go to New Orleans, this concept was limited to her coming to be with you for the birth of the child?
Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. At least temporarily she abandoned the notion of joining you on a semipermanent basis?
Mrs. PAINE. It was abandoned. It was not taken up again.
Mr. JENNER. You arrived in New Orleans?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. The 20th of September.
Mr. McCLOY. Maybe you are going to get to this. Maybe I am anticipating
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your case, so to speak, but during these visits that you paid to your friends on this trip, did you talk about your association with Marina?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.; I did.
Mr. McCLOY. You did?
Mrs. PAINE. Quite a lot. It was rather an important thing to me.
Mr. JENNER. I have some questions to put to Mrs. Paine on that subject, but they are in the area of the collateral that I spoke of this morning, so I did not go into them at the moment.
Now, starting with your arrival in New Orleans, you got there in the morning or afternoon?
Mrs. PAINE. I arrived midafternoon, as I remember.
Mr. JENNER. And you went directly to their home, did you?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. What did you find when you reached the home?
Mrs. PAINE. I was expected. They had groceries bought.
Mr. JENNER. Who was home?
Mrs. PAINE. Marina and Lee, and the baby June.
Mr. JENNER. I don't have a calendar before me. The 20th of September is what day of the week?
Mrs. PAINE. Is a Friday.
Mr. JENNER. 1963?
Mrs. PAINE. I spent the night there that night and the succeeding 2 nights. Lee who bought the groceries while I was there, was host. At one point Mrs. Ruth Kloepfer, who has been previously mentioned, came and visited with her sister excuse me, with her two daughters. This was after I had made a telephone call to her.
Mr. JENNER. These daughters were adults or were they children?
Mrs. PAINE. The daughters were grown daughters.
Mr. JENNER. Grown?
Mrs. PAINE. In college, college-age daughters, and one had been studying Russian, didn't know very much. I was impressed with the role that Lee took of the general host, talking with them, looking over some slides that one of the daughters had brought of her trip, recent trip to Russia, showing sights that they recognized, I guess, in Moscow.
Mr. JENNER. That the girls recognized?
Mrs. PAINE. No; that Lee and Marina recognized of Moscow, or Lee did, at least. And he was very outgoing and warm and friendly. He seemed in good spirits that weekend. I found him--he made a much better impression on me, I will say, that weekend than the last weekend I had seen him, which was in May.
I could see, and it was the first time that I felt that he was concerned about his wife's physical welfare-and- about where she could go to have the baby, and he seemed distinctly relieved to consider the possibility of her going to Dallas County and getting care through Parkland Hospital, and clearly pleased that I wanted to offer this, and pleased to have her go, which relieved my mind a good deal.
I hadn't wanted to have such an arrangement come about without his being interested in having it that way.
Mr. JENNER. During the course of this, did you say you were there 3 days?
Mrs. PAINE. Three nights, two days.
Mr. JENNER. Two days and three nights; there was then a discussion between yourself and Marina, yourself on the one hand, Marina and Lee on the other, in which it was determined that Marina would return with you to Irving, Tex., for the purpose of having the birth of her child in Irving?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. And Lee did participate in those discussions?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, during the course of the time you were there, was there any discussion of the fact that Lee was at that time jobless and would be seeking a position?
Mrs. PAINE. I knew from Marina's letters that he was out of work.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
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Mrs. PAINE. We did have one short conversation and this was in English. I began it. He was willing to proceed in English.
Mr. JENNER. This is one of the few occasions in which he permitted himself to speak with you in English?
Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. I asked him if he thought his application was any impediment to his getting and keeping a job. He said he didn't know, and went on to say that he had already lost his job when he was arrested for passing out pro-Cuba literature here in New Orleans. And he said he spent the night in jail, and I said, "Did Marina know that?" "Yes, she knew it."
Mr. JENNER. I want you to finish the conversation.
Mrs. PAINE. This was as much of a revelation, accurate revelation of what he had done as I ever got from him.
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, Mrs. Paine. I am going to get into that with you.
I would like to have you finish the conversation first before you give your reaction.
Mrs. PAINE. That was the end of it.
Mr. JENNER. That was the end?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, with respect to the Fair Play for Cuba Committee activity, had you up to this moment heard of Lee Harvey Oswald's activities, if any, of any character and to any extent, with respect to the Fair Play for Cuba Committee?
Mrs. PAINE. I had not heard of any such activities.
The name of the committee was not mentioned. I did not know the name of the committee until it appeared in the newspapers after the assassination.
Mr. JENNER. Now, how did Lee Harvey Oswald describe that? What did he say?
Mrs. PAINE. He said that he was passing out pro-Castro or pro-Cuba literature, and that there were some anti-Castro people who also caused some disturbance, and that he had spent the night in jail.
Mr. JENNER. And did I understand you correctly to say that he assigned that as a possible--
Mrs. PAINE. No, on the contrary.
Mr. JENNER. As possibly having had some effect on his loss of position?
Mrs. PAINE. On the contrary, he made the point that he had already lost his job before this happened.
Mr. JENNER. That he had lost his position before the Fair Play for Cuba incident?
Mrs. PAINE. So that he did not know, he could not cite an instance where his application had made it difficult for him in his work.
Mr. JENNER. Had you had conversation with Marina prior to this time in which she might have suggested or did suggest that his application and his history of having gone to Russia and then returned to the United States as having an adverse effect on his efforts to obtain employment?
Mrs. PAINE. No; nothing of that nature was said.
Mr. JENNER. That was never discussed in your presence?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Was it ever discussed in your presence or raised in your presence by anybody other than Lee Harvey Oswald or Marina?
Mrs. PAINE. Not to my recollection.
Mr. JENNER. Was it ever discussed with you by anybody even though they weren't present? By "they" I mean Lee and Marina. You recall none? This is the first instance of any discussion of that character, and you raised it, did you?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. And you have exhausted your recollection of this particular conversation, have you?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. I gather from your testimony that you found the relations between Marina and Lee improved on this occasion?
Mrs. PAINE. They certainly appeared to be improved. The weekend time
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was certainly much more comfortable than the weekend in early May had been when I first was, in New Orleans.
Mr. JENNER. You described yesterday an irritability as between Marina and Lee when you were there in the spring?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And that that had continued during all the time you were in New Orleans. You found the situation different?
Mrs PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. On your return in the fall?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, you have already related the incident about touring Bourbon Street, and that occurred on this occasion, did it?
Mrs. PAINE. During that weekend, yes; those days.
Mr. JENNER. And Lee Harvey Oswald stayed home that evening or that day. It was late in the day, was it, rather than the evening?
Mrs. PAINE. It was early evening.
Mr. JENNER. Early evening. What did he do at home, do you know?
Mrs. PAINE. When we got back Marina noticed that the dishes had been cleaned up and put away. I take it back, they had been washed, not put away. And I believe he did some packing.
Mr. JENNER. In anticipation of your returning to Irving, Tex., with Marina?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
I was impressed during these 2 days with his willingness to help with the packing. He did virtually all the packing and all the loading of the things into the car. I simply thought that gentlemanly of him at the time. I have wondered since whether he wasn't doing it by preference to having me handle it.
Mr. JENNER. I was about to ask you your impression in that direction. Did he seem eager to do the packing?
Mrs. PAINE. He did, distinctly.
Mr. JENNER. Distinctly eager?
Mrs. PAINE. I recall he began as early, you see, as Saturday night and we left Tuesday morning.
Mr. JENNER. And you are aware of the fact he did some packing while you and Marina were on tour?
Mrs. PAINE. It couldn't have been Saturday night, because I only arrived on Saturday. More likely it was Sunday. Is Bourbon Street open on Sunday?
Mr. JENNER. Bourbon Street is open all the time.
Mrs. PAINE. Then it would have to be.
( Discussion off the record. )
Mr. JENNER. Did you have the feeling at the time that he was quite eager to do the packing?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And did you have the feeling it was just a touch out of the ordinary?
Mrs. PAINE. It didn't occur to me that it was.
Mr. JENNER. But on reflection now, you think it was out of the ordinary?
Mrs. PAINE. On reflection now I think it wasn't simply a gesture of the gentleman.
Mr. JENNER. But at the time it didn't arouse enough interest on your part to have a question in your mind?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I would have expected it of other men, but this was the first I saw him taking that much interest.
Mr. JENNER. It did arrest your attention on that score, in any event?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, you were there for 2 full days and 3 evenings. Would you tell us, conserving your description in your words, what did you do during
these 2 days and 3 nights. When I say "you", I am including all three of you.
Mrs. PAINE. Of course, afternoons we usually spent in rest for the children, having all small children, all of us having small children.
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Mr. JENNER. Whenever this doesn't include Lee Harvey Oswald would you be good enough to tell us?
Mrs. PAINE. When he was not present?
Mr. JENNER. That is right.
Mrs. PAINE. My recollection is that he was present most of the weekend. He went out to buy groceries, came in with a cheery call to his two girls, saying, "Yabutchski," which means girls, the Russian word for girls, as he came in the door. It was more like Harvey than I had seen him before. He remembered this time. I saw him reading a pocketbook.
Mr. JENNER. The Commission is interested in his readings. To the best of your ability to recall, tell us. You noticed it now, of course.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. I don't recall the title of it. I do recall that I loaned him a pocketbook at one point. I can't even recall what it was about. But I might if I saw it.
Mr. JENNER. Was it a book on any political subject?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Representative FORD. Was it an English book?
Mrs. PAINE. But it was in English, unless it was a parallel text of Russian-English short stories, something like that, I can't remember. It might have been Reid's Ten Days That Shook the World, or something like that, but I am not at all certain I would have thought he would have read that, anyway.
Representative FORD. Was it a book that you recall having had with you that summer? Ten Days--
Mrs. PAINE. It is a book I should still own, and I don't recall for sure whether I have that one.
Representative FORD. Ten Days That Shook the World?
Mrs. PAINE. I am very shaky in my memory. I had prepared a collection of books for the course in Russian at Saint Marks School, and they included history and literature and English.
Representative FORD. But you were still anticipating teaching Russian at Saint Marks School in Irving?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right, and this was just part of a bibliography of things of interest that included some of the more historical texts from many points of view regarding Soviet life.
Representative FORD. I interrupted you.
Mr. JENNER. I was asking you to tell us in general what was done during those 2 days and 3 nights.
Mrs. PAINE. We went out to wash diapers at the local washateria, and stayed while they were done and went back.
Mr. JENNER. You and Lee?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't think that he went. My recollection is that Marina and I went.
Mr. JENNER. He remained home?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you visit with any of their in-laws?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Did they visit while you were there?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Did they come there?
Mrs. PAINE. No. I have already referred to a visit from Mrs. Kloepfer, with her two girls which must have been the day before we left or Monday.
No, Sunday, it must have been Sunday. It wasn't much time altogether, because Sunday was the day before we left.
Mr. JENNER. Is Mrs. Kloepfer a native American?
Mrs. PAINE. I have no idea. She speaks natively.
Mr. JENNER. But she does have a command of the Russian language?
Mrs. PAINE. Oh, no, no. Her daughter has had 1 year of Russian in college, and was much too shy to begin to say anything, thoroughly overwhelmed by meeting someone who really spoke.
Mr. JENNER. I must have misinterpreted your testimony this morning.
Mrs. PAINE. Her daughter had visited in the Soviet Union just recently and had slides that she had taken that summer.
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Mr. JENNER. But Mrs. Kloepfer, as far as you are informed, had no command of the Russian language?
Mrs. PAINE. Absolutely none. She was the only person I knew to try to contact to ask if she knew or could find anyone in New Orleans who knew Russian, and she said she didn't know anyone, over the phone.
Mr. JENNER. I see.
Mrs. PAINE. And I, therefore, also tried to get Mrs. Blanchard to seek out someone who could talk to Marina.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Blanchard had no command of the Russian language, as far as you knew?
Mrs. PAINE. I would be certain she didn't.
Mr. JENNER. Have you described for us generally the course of events in the 2 days and 3 nights you were there?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, much of the last portion, some of the last portion of Sunday was spent packing up. It was a very well loaded automobile by then, because I already had a great many of my own, including a boat on the top of the car to which we attached the. playpen, stroller, and other things on top. I should describe in detail the packing, which was another thing that made me feel that he did care for his wife.
We left on Monday morning, yes, Monday morning early, the 23d, and it seemed to me he was very sorry to see her go. They kissed goodbye and we got in the car and I started down intending really to go no farther than the first gas station because I had a soft rear tire and I wasn't going to have a flat with this great pile of goods on top of not only my car but my spare, so I went down to the first gas station that was open a couple blocks down, and prepared to buy a fire.
Lee having watched us, walked down to the gas station and talked and visited while I arranged to have the tire changed, bought a new one and had it changed. I felt he wished or thought he should be offering something toward the cost of the tire. He said, "That sure is going to cost a lot, isn't it?" And I said, "Yes; but car owners have to expect that." This is as close as he came to offering financial help. But it was at least a gesture.
Mr. JENNER. Then there was no financial help given you?
Mrs. PAINE. There was no financial help.
Mr. JENNER. Given you by Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. In connection with the return of Marina to Irving, Tex.?
Mrs. PAINE. And he did not at this time give her, so far as I know, any small change or petty cash to take with her, whereas when he left her in late April to go to my house, she to go to my house, and he to go to New Orleans, he left $10 or so with her. She spent that on incidentals.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, did he ever, during all of the period of your acquaintance with the Oswalds, ever offer any reimbursement financially or anything at all to you?
Mrs. PAINE. No; he never offered anything to me.
Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion between you and him on the subject?
Mrs. PAINE. No. As close as we came to such discussion was saying that when they had enough money and perhaps after Christmas they would get an apartment again, and I judged, felt that he was saving money towards renting a furnished apartment for his family.
Mr. JENNER. Now, I used the term "offer." Did he ever offer? Did he in fact ever give you any money?
Mrs. PAINE. He in fact never gave me any money, either. He did give Marina.
Mr. JENNER. The one incident of which you are speaking or on other occasions?
Mrs. PAINE. There was that one incident in April.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. PAINE. He did give her, I think, $10, just prior, or some time close to the time of the assassination, because she planned to buy some shoes.
Mr. JENNER. Shoes for herself, or her children?
Mrs. PAINE. For herself, flat s. But when he gave that to her I am not certain. I do know that we definitely planned to go out on Friday afternoon, the 22d of November, to buy those shoes. We did not go.
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Mr. JENNER. That is you girls planned to do that?
Mrs. PAINE. She and I did; yes.
Representative FORD. Mr. Jenner, do you plan to ask questions about the process of packing of the car?
Mr. JENNER. Yes; I do. Now, this improvement in the attitude of Lee Harvey Oswald, arrested your deliberate attention--didn't it?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it did. It was really the first I had felt any sympathy for him at all.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have any feeling that he, in turn, felt that he might not be seeing Marina any more?
Mrs. PAINE. I had no feeling of that whatever.
Mr. JENNER. None whatsoever.
Mrs. PAINE. He told me that he was going to try to look for work in Houston, and possibly in Philadelphia; these were the two names he mentioned.
Mr. JENNER. We are interested in that, in this particular phase of the investigation. Did he make that statement in your presence, in the presence of Marina?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall.
Mr. JENNER. I take it that this was elicited by a discussion of the subject of his going to look for work after you girls had left, is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE. About what he would do after we left?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, would you repeat just what he said on that subject?
Mrs. PAINE. He told me that he was going to go to Houston to look for work, or possibly to Philadelphia.
Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about having any acquaintances or friends in either of those towns
Mrs. PAINE. He did. You recalled to my mind he said he had a friend in Houston.
Mr. JENNER. Did he mention other towns he might undertake to visit?
Mrs. PAINE. No; he didn't. Or any other friends.
Mr. JENNER. Was there any inference or did you infer from anything he said or which might have been said in your presence that after you girls left he intended to leave New Orleans? To look--
Mrs. PAINE. He was definitely planning to leave New Orleans after we left.
Mr. JENNER. Promptly?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You had that definite impression?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And he put it in terms of leaving New Orleans to go to Houston, or what was the other town?
Mrs. PAINE. Possibly Philadelphia.
Mr. JENNER. Possibly Philadelphia. Now, during all that weekend, was there any discussion of anybody going to Mexico?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Was the subject of Mexico discussed at any time and in any respect?
Mrs. PAINE. Not at any time nor any respect.
Mr. JENNER. On the trip back to Irving, Tex., did Marina say anything on the subject of Mexico?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Did you girls discuss what Lee was going to do during this interim period?
Mrs. PAINE. Only to the extent that he was looking for a job, but I think that discussion, my memory of it comes from a discussion with Lee rather than a discussion with her. I may say that we never talked about any particular time, he would see Marina again.
Mr. JENNER. You did not?
Mrs. PAINE. He kissed her a very fond goodbye, both at home and then again at the gas station, and I felt he cared and he would certainly see her. And this I recalled the other night. It should be put in here. As he was giving me this material, I have already mentioned, that indicated his claim to 1 year residence
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in Texas, I can't remember just what I said that elicited it from him, but some reference to, shall I say that you have gone, or how can I--what shall I say about the husband, where is the husband?
Mr. JENNER. Do the best in your own words.
Mrs. PAINE. Shall I say that you have gone away or away looking for work or something? What shall I say about you?
Mr. JENNER. This is Marina?
Mrs. PAINE. This is in English now, this one English conversation.
Mr. JENNER. By you?
Mrs. PAINE. Apropos of being prepared to admit her to Parkland. I asked, what shall I say about him, that he is gone or what?
He said, "Oh, no, that might appear that I had abandoned her."
And I was glad to hear him say that he didn't at all want it to appear or to feel of himself that he had abandoned her.
Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything as to what representations you might make to Parkland Hospital and other State authorities in that respect?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I don't recall.
Mr. JENNER. On the trip back to--may I defer the packing until Representative Ford returns--on the trip back to Irving, Tex., did you and Marina discuss the subject matter of Lee's going to Houston, Tex, or to Philadelphia to look for a job?
Mrs. PAINE. No; we didn't.
Mr. JENNER. At any time during the weekend you were in New Orleans or driving from New Orleans to Irving, Tex. was the friend identified, the supposed friend?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. In Houston, identified?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I remember wondering if there was one.
Mr. JENNER. You wondered at the time?
Mrs. PAINE. I wondered to myself if there was one.
Mr. JENNER. What made you wonder?
Mrs. PAINE. I may say, also, I wondered, as I have already indicated for the Commission, I had wondered, from time to time, whether this was a man who was working as a spy or in any way a threat to the Nation, and I thought, "This is the first I have heard anything about a contact. I am interested to know if this is a real thing or something unreal." And waited to see really whether I would learn any more about it. But this thought crossed my mind.
Mr. JENNER. It did? Now, many of my questions are directed towards trying to find out what this man did with his time. When he went job hunting, according to some of the records here, he appeared to return home rather promptly. That is, he would leave in the morning but he would be home before noontime.
Mrs. PAINE. Oh.
Mr. JENNER. Did you notice anything of that nature?
Mrs. PAINE. I never saw him when he was job hunting. The times in New Orleans, of course, I wasn't there. The times in April he was job hunting from a base of 214 Neely Street, and in October he was operating from the base of the room on Beckley Street. So I never saw him.
Mr. JENNER. So that as far as--this I would like to bring out, Mr. Chairman--as far as your contact with Lee Harvey Oswald as such, Mrs. Paine, your opportunities for knowing what he did with his time were limited, were they not?
Mrs. PAINE. They were limited.
Mr. JENNER. That is in the spring, there was this New Orleans period when he was absent in New Orleans altogether during the 2 weeks that Marina was with you?
Mrs. PAINE. Right.
Mr. JENNER. It is the period preceding the trip to New Orleans that they lived a little distance from you, and that was in a period of your really becoming more acquainted with them. Were you aware of what Mr. Oswald was doing during the daytime, or evening along in that period of time?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. In the fall when you saw him then for 2 days and 3 nights in
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the early fall of 1963, he was out of work. He was at the home substantially all of that time?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You returned to Irving, then, and you didn't see him until he appeared as you testified this morning, on October 4, 1963?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Now, he was in your home from October 4, 1963, until what was it--the 15th of October? Is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. He was not?
Mrs. PAINE. Not at all. He was in the home for the weekend of October 4. I then took him to the bus around noon on the 7th, that is a Monday, to the Intercity Bus between Irving and Dallas. You can't walk to it from my house. There is no way to get anywhere from my house unless you use a car.
Mr. JENNER. We are interested in that, also, Mrs. Paine, about his ability to get to your home from whatever means of public transportation there was. Would you be good enough to describe the problem in that connection?
Mrs. PAINE. He called on the afternoon of the 4th.
Mr. JENNER. Would you give us the problems first, the physical problems?
Where was the bus located? What was the bus terminal? How far was it from your home?
Mrs. PAINE. The bus terminal in Irving where you could get a bus going to Dallas was several miles away, 2 to 3 miles away from my home, a 10 minute car ride.
Mr. JENNER. And what means of transportation was there from the bus terminal to your home?
Mrs. PAINE. Walking?
Mr. JENNER. Any public transportation.
Mrs. PAINE. There was nothing public.
Mr. JENNER. You would have to hitchhike or walk or be driven?
Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. I take it, then, there were occasions when you would have to go and pick him up at the bus terminal?.
Mrs. PAINE. I recall at least one such occasion, and that was on the 12th of October, a Saturday, which was the next time he came out.
Mr. JENNER. That was the next time following the October 4 weekend?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. When was the first time that you heard, or had any notice of the fact that this man had been in Mexico, or possibly may have been in Mexico?
Mrs. PAINE. They are two different questions. I will answer the first one. I heard that he had been in Mexico after the assassination in one of the papers.
Mr. JENNER. Was that the first time?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; that was the first time. Looking back then, with that knowledge, I could see that I might have guessed this from two other things, that had happened.
Mr. JENNER. All right, give us them in sequence, please.
Mrs. PAINE. One was, I can describe by an incident that took place at our home, I am not certain which weekend, one of the times that Lee was out. He wanted to drill a hole in a silver coin for Marina so she could wear it around her neck, and presumed to use my husband's drill press, which is one of the many things in the garage, and I complained. But he convinced me that he knew how to operate it and knew just what he was doing.
So I said, all right, and he proceeded to drill a hole in this coin, and then Marina showed it to me later. I didn't look closely at it. It wasn't until--although I could have perfectly well in this situation. I did see that it was a foreign coin.
Mr. JENNER. It was a what?
Mrs. PAINE. It was a foreign coin. It was not a coin I recognized. It was about the size of a silver dollar, but not as thick, as I remember it. And it was not then until perhaps a week or something less after the assassination when an, FBI agent asked me was there anything left in the house that would be pertinent, and he and I went together and looked in the drawer in the room
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where Marina had been staying, and found there this drilled coin, looked at it closely, and it was a peso, the Republic of Mexico. This is the first I had looked at it closely. Also, with this peso was a Spanish-English Dictionary.
My tendency to be very hesitant to look into other people's things was rather put aside at this point, and I was very curious to see what this book was, and I observed that the price of it, or what I took to be the price was in a corner at the front was not in English money, and at the back in his hand or somebody's hand in small scribble was the notation, "Buy tickets for bull fight, get silver bracelet for Marina" and there in the drawer also was a silver bracelet with the name Marina on it, which I took to be associated with this notation.
Mr. JENNER. Was it inscribed on the bracelet?
Mrs. PAINE. It was inscribed, the name Marina. And some picture post-cards with no message, just a picture of Mexico City in this dictionary, and these I gave to the
Mr. JENNER. Had you seen any of these items in your home at anytime prior to this occasion that you have now described?
Mrs. PAINE. None of these items except the peso which I had not noticed to be that, seen it, of course.
Mr. JENNER. Now, that is one incident.
Mrs. PAINE. That is one incident. Another refers to a rough draft of a letter that Lee wrote and left this rough draft on my secretary desk.
Mr. JENNER. Would you describe the incident? In the meantime, I will obtain the rough draft here among my notes.
Mrs. PAINE. All right. This was on the morning of November 9, Saturday. He asked to use my typewriter, and I said he might.
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. Would you please. state to the Commission why you are reasonably firm that it was the morning of November 9? What arrests your attention to that particular date?
Mrs. PAINE. Because I remember the weekend that this note or rough draft remained on my secretary desk. He spent the weekend on it. And the weekend was close and its residence on that desk was stopped also on the evening of Sunday, the 10th, when I moved everything in the living room around; the whole arrangement of the furniture was changed, so that I am very clear in my mind as to what weekend this was.
Mr. JENNER. All right, go ahead.
Mrs. PAINE. He was using the typewriter. I came and put June in her high-chair near him at the table where he was typing, and he moved something over what he was typing from, which aroused my curiosity.
Mr. JENNER. Why did that arouse your curiosity?
Mrs. PAINE. It appeared he didn't want me to see what he was writing or to whom he was writing. I didn't know why he had covered it. If I had peered around him, I could have looked at the typewriter and the page in it, but I didn't.
Mr. JENNER. It did make you curious?
Mrs. PAINE. It did make me curious. Then, later that day, I noticed a scrawling handwriting on a piece of paper on the corner at the top of my secretary desk in the living room. It remained there.
Sunday morning I was the first one up. I took a closer look at this, a folded sheet of paper folded at the middle. The first sentence arrested me because I knew it to be false. And for this reason I then proceeded--
Mr. JENNER. Would you just hold it at that moment. This is for purposes of identification, Mr. Chairman, rather than admission of the document in evidence. I have marked pages 321 and 322 of Commission Document No. 385 generally referred to by the staff as the Gemberling Report. He is an FBI agent. I have now placed that before the witness. You examined that yesterday with me, did you not, Mrs. Paine?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. The document I am now showing you?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Is that a transcript, a literal transcript of the document you saw?
Mrs. PAINE. Of course the document was in English, transcribing of what was said; yes.
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Mr. JENNER. By transcript I meant that it has been retyped, that it is literal.
Mrs. PAINE. That is the document; yes.
Mr. JENNER. That is interesting. You noticed that the document was in English.
Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes.
Mr. JENNER. You saw it. And it was folded at what point, now that you have the transcript of it before you?
Mrs. PAINE. At the top of what I could see of the paper. In other words, it was just below the fold. It said, "The FBI is not now interested in my activities."
Mr. JENNER. Is that what arrested your attention?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. What did you do?
Mrs. PAINE. I then proceeded to read the whole note, wondering, knowing this to be false, wondering why he was saying it. I was irritated to have him writing a falsehood on my typewriter, I may say, too. I felt I had some cause to look at it.
Mr. JENNER. May I have your permission, Mr. Chairman. The document is short. It is relevant to the witness' testimony, and might I read it aloud in the record to draw your attention to it?
Mr. McCLOY. Without objection.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, would you help me by reading it, since you have it there.
Mrs. PAINE. Do you want me to leave out all the crossed out--
Mr. JENNER. No; I wish you would indicate that too.
Mrs. PAINE. "Dear Sirs:
"This is to inform you of events since my interview with comrade Kostine in the Embassy of the Soviet Union, Mexico City, Mexico."
(Discussion off the record.)
Mrs. PAINE. He typed it early in the morning of that day because after he typed it we went to the place where you get the test for drivers. It was that same day.
Mr. JENNER. It was election day and the driver's license place was closed, is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And that was November 9?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now you have reached the point where you are reading the letter on the morning of November 10.
Mrs. PAINE. That is right; after I had noticed that it lay on my desk the previous evening.
"I was unable to remain in Mexico City (because I considered useless--)"because it is crossed out.
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, Mr. Chairman. In this transcript wherever there are words stricken out, the transcriber has placed those words in parenthesis and transcribed the words, but then has written the words "crossed out" to indicate in the original the words crossed out.
Proceed, Mrs. Paine.
Mrs. PAINE. "Indefinitely because of my (visa--crossed out) Mexican visa restrictions which was for 15 days only.
"(I had a---crossed out) I could not take a chance on applying for an extension unless I used my real name so I returned to the U.S.
"I and Marina Nicholyeva are now living in Dallas, Texas. (You all ready ha--crossed out).
"The FBI is not now interested in my activities in the progressive organization FPCC of which I was secretary in (New Orleans, La.--crossed out) New Orleans, Louisiana since I (am-crossed out) no longer (connected with-crossed out) live in that state.
"(November the November-crossed out) the FBI has visited us here in Texas on November 1st. Agent of the FBI James P. Hasty warned me that if I attempt to engage in FPCC activities in Texas the FBI will again take an 'interest' in me. The agent also 'suggested' that my wife could remain in the U.S. under
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FBI protection', that is, she could (refuse to return to the-crossed out) defect from the Soviet Union. Of course I and my wife strongly protested these tactics by the notorious FBI.
"(It was unfortunate that the Soviet Embassy was unable to aid me in Mexico City but-crossed out) I had not planned to contact the Mexico City Embassy at all so of course they were unprepared for me. Had I been able to reach Havana as planned (I could have contacted--crossed out) the Soviet Embassy there (for the completion of would have been able to help me get the necessary documents I required assist me crossed out ) would have had time to assist me, but of course the stuip Cuban consule was at fault here. I am glad he has since been replaced by another."
Mr. JENNER. Now I would like to ask you a few questions about your reaction to that. You had read that in the quiet of your living room on Sunday morning, the 10th of November.
Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And there were a number of things in that that you thought were untrue.
Mrs. PAINE. Several things I knew to be untrue.
Mr. JENNER. You knew to be untrue. Were there things in there that alarmed you?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I would say so.
Mr. JENNER. What were they?
Mrs. PAINE. To me this--well, I read it and decided to make a copy.
Mr. JENNER. Would having the document back before you help you?
Mrs. PAINE. No, no. I was just trying to think what to say first. And decided that I should have such a copy to give to an FBI agent coming again, or to call. I was undecided what to do. Meantime I made a copy.
Mr. JENNER. But you did have the instinct to report this to the FBI?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you made a copy of the document?
Mrs. PAINE. And I made a copy of the document which should be among your papers, because they have that too. And after having made it, while the shower was running, I am not used to subterfuge in any way, but then I put it back where it had been and it lay the rest of Sunday on my desk top, and of course I observed this too.
Mr. JENNER. That is that Lee didn't put it away, just left it out in the room?
Mrs. PAINE. That he didn't put it away or didn't seem to care or notice or didn't recall that he had a rough draft lying around. I observed it was untrue that the FBI was no longer interested in him. I observed it was untrue that the FBI came--
Mr. JENNER. Why did you observe that that was untrue?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, the FBI came and they asked me, they said--
Mr. JENNER. Had the FBI been making inquiries of you prior to that time?
Mrs. PAINE. They had been twice.
Mr. JENNER. November 1 and--
Mrs. PAINE. November 1, and they told me the 5. I made no record of it whatever.
Mr. JENNER. But it was a few days later?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; a few days later. And the first visit I understood to be a visit to convey to Marina that if any blackmail pressure was being put upon her, because of relatives back home, that she was invited, if she wished, to talk about this to the FBI. This is a far cry from being told she could defect from the Soviet Union, very strong words, and false both.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever hear anything at all insofar as the FBI is concerned reported to you by Marina or Lee Harvey Oswald during all of your acquaintance with either of them of any suggestion by the FBI or anybody else that Marina defect in that context to the United States?
Mrs. PAINE. No, absolutely not.
Mr. JENNER. Or anything of similar import?
Mrs. PAINE. Nothing of similar import.
Mr. JENNER. I limited it to the FBI. Any agency of the Government of the United States?
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Mrs. PAINE. Nothing of that sort.
Mr. JENNER. And did you see or observe anything during all of that period of your acquaintance, which stimulated you to think at all or have any notion that any agency of the Government of the United States was seeking to induce her to defect?
Mrs. PAINE. To the United States?
Mr. JENNER. To the United States.
Mrs. PAINE. No, and her terminology in view of it was so completely different from such stereotyped and loaded words that I was seeing as I read this. What I was most struck with was what kind of man is this.
Mr. JENNER. Is who?
Mrs. PAINE. Why is Lee Oswald writing this? What kind of man? Here is a false statement that she was invited to defect, false statement that the FBI is no longer interested, false statement that he was present, "they visited I and my wife."
Mr. JENNER. Was he present?
Mrs. PAINE. He was not present. False statement that "I and my wife protested vigorously." Having not been present he could not protest.
Mr. JENNER. He was not present when the FBI interviewed you on November 1. Was Marina present then?
Mrs. PAINE. She was present.
Mr. JENNER. And was Marina present when the FBI came later on November 5?
Mrs. PAINE. She came into the room just after basically the very short visit was concluded.
Mr. JENNER. The second interview was a rather short one?
Mrs. PAINE. The second interview was conducted standing up. He simply asked me did I know the address. My memory had been refreshed by him since.
Mr. JENNER. The first interview, however, was a rather lengthly one?
Mrs. PAINE. But it was not strictly speaking an interview.
Mr. JENNER. What was it?
Mrs. PAINE. It was, as Mr. Hosty has described to me later, and I think this was my impression too of it at the time, an informal opening for confidence. He presented himself. He talked. We conversed about the weather, about Texas, about the end of the last World War and changes in Germany at the time.
He mentioned that the FBI is very careful in their investigations not to bring anyone they suspect in public light until they have evidence to convict him in a proper court of law, that they did not convict by hearsay or public accusation.
He asked me, and here I am answering why I thought it was false to say the FBI is no longer interested in Lee Oswald; he asked first of all if I knew did Lee live there, and I said "No." Did I know where he lived? No, I didn't, but that it was in Dallas.
Did I know where he worked? Yes, I did.
And I said I thought Lee was very worried about losing this job, and the agent said that well, it wasn't their custom to approach the employer directly. I said that Lee would be there on the weekend, so far as I knew, that he could be seen then, if he was interested in talking to Lee.
I want to return now to the fact that I had seen these gross falsehoods and strong words, concluding with "notorious FBI" in this letter, and gone to say I wondered whether any of it was true, including the reference to going to Mexico, including the reference to using a false name, and I still wonder if that was true or false that he used an assumed name, though I no longer wonder whether he had actually gone.
Mr. JENNER. There was a subsequent incident in which you did learn that he used an assumed name, was there not?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, a week later.
Mr. JENNER. We will get to that in a moment. But was this--
Mrs. PAINE. But this was the first indication I had that this man was a good deal queerer than I thought, and it didn't tell me, perhaps it should have but it didn't tell me just what sort of a queer he was. He addressed it "Dear Sirs."
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It looked to me like someone trying to make an impression, and choosing the words he thought were best to make that impression, even including assumed name as a possible attempt to make an impression on someone who was able to do espionage, but not to my mind necessarily a picture of someone who was doing espionage, though I left that open as a possibility, and thought I'd give it to the FBI and let them conclude or add it to what they knew.
I regret, and I would like to put this on the record, particularly two things in my own actions prior to the time of the assassination.
One, that I didn't make the connection between this phone number that I had of where he lived and that of course this would produce for the FBI agent who was asking the address of where he lived.
Mr. JENNER. I will get to that, Mrs. Paine.
Mrs. PAINE. Well, that is regret 1.
Mr. JENNER. I don't want to cover too many subjects at the moment.
Mrs. PAINE. But then of course you see in light of the events that followed it is a pity that I didn't go directly instead of waiting for the next visit, because the next visit was the 23d of November.
Mr. JENNER. Now I am going to get to that. What did you do with your copy of the letter?
Mrs. PAINE. I put my copy of the letter away in an envelope in my desk. I then, Sunday evening, also took the original I decided to do that Sunday evening.
Mr. JENNER. He had left?
Mrs. PAINE. No, he had not left.
Mr. JENNER. He had not left?
Mrs. PAINE. I asked the gentlemen present, it included Michael, to come in and help me move the furniture around. I walked in and saw the letter was still there and plunked it into my desk. We then moved all the furniture. I then took it out of the desk and placed it.
Mr. JENNER. When did you take it out of the desk?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't think he knew that I took it. Oh, that evening or the next morning, I don't recall.
Mr. JENNER. And this was the 10th of November?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever have any conversation with him about that?
Mrs. PAINE. No. I came close to it. I was disturbed about it. I didn't go to sleep right away. He was sitting up watching the late spy story, if you will, on the TV, and I got up and sat there on the sofa with him saying, "I can't speak," wanting to confront him with this and say, "What is this?" But on the other hand I was somewhat fearful, and I didn't know what to do.
Representative FORD. Fearful in what way?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, if he was an agent, I would rather just give it to the FBI, not to say "Look, I am watching you" by saying "What is this I find on my desk."
Mr. JENNER. Were you fearful of any physical harm?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I was not.
Representative FORD. That is what I was concerned about.
Mrs. PAINE. No; I was not, though I don't think I defined my fears. I sat down and said I couldn't sleep and he said, "I guess you are real upset about going to the lawyer tomorrow."
He knew I had an appointment with my lawyer to discuss the possibility of a divorce the next day, and that didn't happen to be what was keeping me up that night, but I was indeed upset about the idea, and it was thoughtful for him to think of it. But I let it rest there, and we watched the story which he was interested in watching. And then I excused myself and went to bed.
Mr. JENNER. What did you do ultimately with your draft of the letter and the original?
Mrs. PAINE. The first appearance of an FBI person on the 23d of November, I gave the original to them. The next day it probably was I said I also had a copy and gave them that. I wanted to be shut of it.
Mr. JENNER. So I take it, Mrs. Paine, you did not deliver either the original
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or the copy or call attention to the original or the copy with respect to the FBI.
Mrs. PAINE. Prior.
Mr. JENNER. Prior to the 23d did you say?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. And what led you to hold onto this rather provocative document?
Mrs. PAINE. It is a rather provocative document. It provoked my doubts about this fellow's normalcy more than it provoked thoughts that this was the talk of an agent reporting in. But I wasn't sure.
I of course made no--I didn't know him to be a violent person, had no thought that he had this trait, possibility in him, absolutely no connection with the President's coming. If I had, hindsight is so much better, I would, certainly have called the FBI's attention to it. Supposing that I had?
Mr. JENNER. If the FBI had returned, Mrs. Paine, as you indicated during the course of your meeting with the FBI November 1, would you have disclosed this document to the FBI?
Mrs. PAINE. Oh, I certainly think so. This was not something I was at all comfortable in having even.
Mr. JENNER. Were you expecting the FBI to return?
Mrs. PAINE. I did expect them to come back. As I say, I had said that Lee was here on weekends and so forth. It might have been a good time to give them this document. But as far as I knew, and I know now certainly, they had not seen him and they were still interested in seeing him.
Representative FORD. How did you copy the note?
Mrs. PAINE. Handwritten.
Representative FORD. Handwritten?
Mrs. PAINE. I perhaps should put in here that Lee told me, and I only reconstructed this a few weeks ago, that he went, after I gave him--from the first visit of the FBI agent I took down the agent's name and the number that is in the telephone book to call the FBI, and I gave this to Lee the weekend he came.
Mr. JENNER. You gave it to Lee?
Mrs. PAINE. I gave it to Lee.
Mr. JENNER. What weekend was that?
Mrs. PAINE. I am told that came out on the 1st of November, so that would have been the weekend of the 2d, the next day.
Mr. JENNER. You have your calendar there. The 1st of November is what day of the week?
Mrs. PAINE. It is a Friday. Then. he told me, it must have been the following weekend, that same weekend of the 9th.
Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything when you gave him Agent Hosty's name on the telephone?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Nothing at all?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall anything Lee said. I will go on as to the recollections that came later. He told me that he had stopped at the downtown office of the FBI and tried to see the agents and left a note. And my impression of it is that this notice irritated.
Mr. JENNER. Irritating?
Mrs. PAINE. Irritated, that he left the note saying what he thought. This is reconstructing my impression of the fellows bothering him and his family, and this is my impression then. I couldn't say this was specifically said to him later.
Mr. JENNER. You mean he was irritated?
Mrs. PAINE. He was irritated and he said, "They are trying to inhibit my activities," and I said, "You passed your pamphlets," and could well have gone on to say what I thought, but I don't believe I did go on to say, that he could and should expect the FBI to be interested in him.
He had gone to the Soviet Union, intended to become a citizen there, and come back. He had just better adjust himself to being of interest to them for years to come.
Mr. JENNER. What did he say to that?
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Mrs. PAINE. Now as I say, this I didn't go on to say. This was my feeling.
I didn't actually go on to say this. I did say, "Don't be inhibited, do what you think you should." But I was thinking in terms of passing pamphlets or expressing a belief in Fidel Castro, if that is why he had, I defend his right to express such a belief. I felt the FBI would too and that he had no reason to be irritated. But then that was my interpretation.
Mr. JENNER. Have you given all of what he said and what you said, however, on that occasion?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. I will just go on to say that I learned only a few weeks ago that he never did go into the FBI office. Of course knowing, thinking that he had gone in, I thought that was sensible on his part. But it appears to have been another lie.
Mr. JENNER. I will return to that FBI visit in a moment. I want to cover that as a separate subject.
Representative Ford is interested in another subject. I would like to return to the day or the period that your station wagon was being parked just before you took off. You have already testified to the fact, either earlier this afternoon or late this morning, that Lee Harvey Oswald appeared to be quite active in doing packing.
Mrs. PAINE. Right.
Mr. JENNER. Of household wares or goods that were being taken back to Irving, Tex. Were you present when the station wagon was loaded with the various materials?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, I was present for most if not all of that.
Mr. JENNER. Who did that?
Mrs. PAINE. He put the things in. I knew that we would spend one night on the road, that there were certain things we would have to get too, and I knew where these were, and he didn't, so that I talked about where these things should be placed, and helped with some of the binding, tying things to the boat on the car rack.
Mr. JENNER. The boat on top of the station wagon?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now would you please tell us what there was in the way of luggage placed in the station wagon?
Mrs. PAINE. There again the two large duffels which were heavier than I could move, he put those in.
Mr. JENNER. Describe their appearance, please.
Mrs. PAINE. Again stuffed full, a rumply outside.
Mr. JENNER. With what?
Mrs. PAINE. Rumply.
Mr. JENNER. Rumply? No appearance of any hard object pushing outwards?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Against the sides or ends of the duffel bags?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. You saw nothing with respect to those duffel bags which might have led you to believe--
Mrs. PAINE. A board in it, no.
Mr. JENNER. A tent pole, a long object, hard?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Nothing at all?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. And how many pieces of luggage?
Mrs. PAINE. Again these same suitcases, 2 or 3, I think 3 including quite a small one, and the little radio.
Mr. JENNER. What about the zipper bag?
Mrs. PAINE. That was there. I think so. Oh no, it probably wasn't. I don't recall the zipper bag as being part of that.
Mr. JENNER. I wish you would reflect a little on this because it is important, Mrs. Paine, if you can remember it as accurately as possible.
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall the zipper bag among those things.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall the zipper bag when you arrived in Irving?
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Mrs. PAINE. I think I saw him arrive with it himself, but I am not certain. No, wait, that may not be because I didn't see him when he first arrived.
Mr. JENNER. When you arrived in Irving, Mrs. Paine, not when he arrived.
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall that. I distinctly recall the duffels because it was all I could do to get them off of the car and set them on the grass until Michael could come and put them into the garage.
Mr. JENNER. Do you distinctly recall the hard-sided luggage you described yesterday?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. All of the pieces that you saw?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, I don't recall that it was all. I couldn't even recall too well how many went down to New Orleans originally.
Mr. JENNER. Was there more than one?
Mrs. PAINE. There was certainly more than one.
Mr. JENNER. Do you think there were more than two?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall specifically.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have a recollection as to whether there was a piece of luggage still apart from the zipper bag, still in the apartment at 4907 Magazine Street when you girls pulled out to go back to Irving?
Mrs. PAINE. I have no specific recollection.
Mr. JENNER. Is it fair to say it is your best recollection at the moment that the zipper bag you have described earlier, you described yesterday, was not placed in the station wagon, and did not return with you to Irving?
Mrs. PAINE. I do not recall it being in the station wagon.
Mr. JENNER. Now, was there a separate long package of any kind?
Mrs. PAINE. I do not recall such a package.
Mr. JENNER. Was there a separate package of any character wrapped in a blanket?
Mrs. PAINE. No. There was a basket such as you use for hanging your clothes. It carried exactly that, clothes and diapers, and they weren't as neat as being in suitcases and duffels would imply. There was leftovers stuffed in the corner, clothes and things, but rather open.
Mr. JENNER. So you saw no long rectangular package of any kind or character loaded in or placed in your station wagon?
Mrs. PAINE. No, it doesn't mean it wasn't there, but I saw nothing of that nature.
Mr. JENNER. You saw nothing?
Mrs. PAINE. I saw nothing.
Mr. JENNER. When you arrived in Irving, Tex., were you present when your station wagon was unpacked?
Mrs. PAINE. Marina and I did that with the exception of the duffels.
Mr. JENNER. You did it all yourself and you took out of the station wagon everything in it other than the two duffel bags?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, in the process of removing everything other than the two duffel bags-on the occasion on the 24th of September 1963 when you reached Irving, Tex., did you find or see any long rectangular package?
Mrs. PAINE. I recall no such package.
Mr. JENNER. Did you see any kind of a package wrapped in the blanket?
Mrs. PAINE. Not to my recollection.
Mr. JENNER. Did you see any package
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall seeing the blanket either.
Mr. JENNER. On that occasion?
Mrs. PAINE. On that occasion, not until later.
Mr. JENNER. Not until later.
Representative FORD. Did you see the blanket in New Orleans?
Mrs. PAINE. On the bed or something. I am asking myself. I don't recall it specifically.
Mr. JENNER. Of course we all know the blanket to which we are referring, which I will ask you about in a moment. I might show it to you at the moment, or at least ask you if it is the blanket. I am exhibiting to the witness Commission Exhibit No. 140. Is this blanket familiar to you?
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Mrs. PAINE. Yes, it is.
Mr. JENNER. And give us the best recollection you have when you first saw it.
Mrs. PAINE. My best recollection is that I saw it on the floor of my garage sometime in late October.
Mr. JENNER. 1963?
Mrs. PAINE. Right.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have a recollection of ever having seen it before that time?
Mrs. PAINE. No. I might say also now that I know certainly I have never seen this binding until last night.
Mr. JENNER. When you say "this binding," you are pointing to what appears to be some black binding?
Mrs. PAINE. Some hemstitching, it is sewn.
Mr. JENNER. On the edge of the blanket.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. This binding was not apparent, did not show.
Mr. JENNER. You never noticed the binding before, if the binding had always been on it, is that what you mean to say?
Mrs. PAINE. When I saw the blanket the binding was not showing.
Representative FORD. How carefully did you analyze the blanket on the previous occasions?
Mrs. PAINE. I stepped over it. I didn't pick it up or look at it closely.
Representative FORD Didn't turn it over?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Representative FORD. Didn't move it?
Mrs. PAINE. No, I didn't.
Representative FORD. So you only saw one surface more or less?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, only one surface, except I saw that it had been moved.
Representative FORD. But you didn't move it yourself?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. In what shape, that is form, was the blanket when you first saw it? And I take it you first saw it in your garage.
Mrs. PAINE. That is my recollection.
Mr. JENNER. And it was subsequent to the time that you and Marina had returned to Irving?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you are certain that you did not see the blanket in your station wagon when you arrived in Irving?
Mrs. PAINE. I do not recall seeing the blanket in my station wagon.
Mr. JENNER. And you didn't see it in their apartment at 4907 Magazine Street when you were there?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall seeing it there.
Mr. JENNER. Either in the spring or in the fall, is that true?
Mrs. PAINE. That is true.
Mr. JENNER. Now tell us--I take it from your testimony that the blanket, when you first saw it in a garage, was in a configuration in the form of a package?
Mrs. PAINE. It was a long rectangle shape with the ends tucked in.
Mr. JENNER. Would. you be good enough to re-form that blanket so that it is in the shape and the dimension when you first saw it?
Mrs. PAINE. About like so.
Mr. JENNER. For the record if you please, Mr. Chairman, the length of the form is just exactly 45 inches, and it is across exactly 12 inches.
Representative FORD. That is across lying flat.
Mr. JENNER. Across lying flat, thank you.
Now, what else about the form of the blanket did you notice on the occasion when you first saw it on your garage floor? Anything else?
Mrs. PAINE. I recall from either that occasion or another that there were parallel strings around it.
Mr. JENNER. Tied?
Mrs. PAINE. Into a bundle, yes, 3 or 4.
Mr. JENNER. How many were there?
Mrs. PAINE. 3 or 4, I don't recall.
Mr. JENNER. 3 or 4
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Mrs. PAINE. Yes. I suppose it would be four. It would be very well spaced if it was only three, and I think they were closer than that.
Mr. JENNER. Your best recollection now.
Mrs. PAINE. Is four.
Mr. JENNER. Rather than rationalization.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, there were four.
Mr. JENNER. There were four string ties across the 12-inch side of the blanket. Were those string ties pulled so they seemed to hold something inside the blanket?
Mrs. PAINE. They didn't seem particularly tight, but then I don't have a strong recollection of them prior to the 22d.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever pick up that package?
Mrs. PAINE. No, I never did.
Mr. JENNER. That was wrapped in the blanket. Did you ever have any discussion with Marina Oswald about the package in your garage?
Mrs. PAINE. Not until the afternoon of the 22d.
Mr. JENNER. Did you see anybody move it about your garage at any time?
Mrs. PAINE. No, I did not see anyone move it.
Mr. JENNER. And how long after you returned to Texas did you notice that package in your garage?
Mrs. PAINE. I said I thought it was late October perhaps. I wouldn't be at all certain about when I first noticed it.
Mr. JENNER. And did you notice from time to time that it was in a different position or places in your garage?
Mrs. PAINE. I recall two places I saw it.
Mr. JENNER. And the first was where?
Mrs. PAINE. Over near--the radial saw, what do you call it, buzz saw?
Mr. JENNER. Bandsaw.
Mrs. PAINE. No, buzz saw.
Mr. JENNER. Oh yes, a disc type, a buzz saw, near the buzz saw. Then on the second occasion when you saw it, where was it?
Mrs. PAINE. Over near the work bench in front of part of the work bench, one end extending toward the bandsaw.
Mr. JENNER. And on both of those occasions was the package lying flat on the floor or was it upended?
Mrs. PAINE. Flat on the floor.
Mr. JENNER. And you never had any curiosity with respect to it to lead you to step on it or feel it in any respect?
Mrs. PAINE. No, I didn't,
Mr. JENNER. Did you have a lot of debris or articles in the garage?
Mrs. PAINE. Indeed, and do yet. Our things and most of the Oswald things were stored there. I have mentioned several pieces of machine tools.
Mr. JENNER. We identified the garage picture at the tail end of yesterday, and I think the Chairman is seeking it.
Mr. McCLOY. I am trying to find it now.
Mrs. PAINE. That of course was taken more recently, but it is reasonably typical of its condition at that time too.
(Discussion off the record. )
Mr. JENNER. This is a photograph numbered eight, entitled garage interior, which I have marked with Commission number 429, and I now exhibit that to Mrs. Paine.
Are you familiar with what is depicted in that photograph?
Mrs. PAINE. Very.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know when that photograph was taken?
Mrs. PAINE. It was taken about 2 weeks ago.
Mr. JENNER. Were you present?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And does it accurately depict everything that was there and in its relative position at the time the picture was taken?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And it is your garage?
Mrs. PAINE. It is.
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Mr. JENNER. Would you locate on that, and I would like to have you place an X at the point in that picture that you first saw the package?
Mrs. PAINE. Underneath that box.
Mr. JENNER. All right. You have written an arrow or X next to "on floor" and it is underneath the box that is on the floor.
Mrs. PAINE. It was in front as I recall it; this was the buzz saw I was talking about, right here.
Mr. JENNER. Right here the witness is pointing to the right hand upper middle section of the photograph
Mr. DULLES. Is this the first location of the package?
Mrs. PAINE. It was over on that side of the garage, towards the door or--
Mr. DULLES. The first location of it?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Toward what door, Mrs. Paine?
Mrs. PAINE. Toward the front of the garage.
Mr. JENNER. Where did you see it on the second occasion?
Mrs. PAINE. Part of it in front of this work bench, one right under this box here.
Mr. JENNER. Put a double X here, between this workbench and this bandsaw.
Mrs. PAINE. On the floor.
Mr. JENNER. The workbench and the bandsaw to which the witness is pointing are on the left hand side of the photograph,, the bandsaw being about the upper middle. Is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. The package was farther to the interior from the bench.
Mr. JENNER. It was toward the back rather than toward the door?
Mrs. PAINE. It was the other side of the bandsaw so it was farther to the interior than its first location.
Mr. JENNER. I offer in evidence as Commission Exhibit No. 429 the document which the witness has identified which in turn was identified as Commission Exhibit 429.
Mr. McCLOY. It will be admitted.
(The photograph referred to, previously identified as Commission Exhibit No. 429, was received in evidence.)
Mr. JENNER. For the record, I am placing the rifle in the folded blanket as Mrs. Paine folded it. This is being done without the rifle being dismantled. May the record show, Mr. Chairman, that the rifle fits well in the package from end to end, and it does not--
Mrs. PAINE. Can you make it flatter?
Mr. JENNER. No; because the rifle is now in there.
Mrs. PAINE. I just mean that--
Mr. JENNER. Was that about the appearance of the blanket wrapped package that you saw on your garage floor?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; although I recall it as quite flat.
Mr. JENNER. Flatter than it now appears to be?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. But it is not a clear recollection.
Mr. JENNER. You have a firm recollection that the package you saw was of the length?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, definitely.
Mr. JENNER. That is 45 inches, approximately. You had no occasion when you stepped on the package--
Mrs. PAINE. I stepped over it.
Mr. JENNER. You always stepped over it?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; until the afternoon of the 22d.
Mr. JENNER. By accident or otherwise, did you happen to come in contact with it?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. You don't know whether there was anything solid or hard in it?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. DULLES. Did it look about the way this package looks?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. McCLOY. Except for the fact it had some cord around it?
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Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Representative FORD. When it had some cord around it, did the way it was tied pull it in or distort the shape?
Mrs. PAINE. No; it didn't distort the shape.
Representative FORD. About the same shape even with the cord?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. DULLES. The cords weren't pulled tight?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. They were relatively loosley tied?
Mrs. PAINE. I recall this definite shape.
Mr. JENNER. To hold the blanket in that form rather than to hold the contents of the package firm, is that your impression?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. McCLOY. Are you going to ask about the husband's testimony in connection with the moving of the package?
Mr. JENNER. I did not intend to.
Mr. McCLOY. I was not present but your husband testified he had moved the blanket from time to time but had not opened it. Did he ever refer to it? Did he ever speak to you about having had to move it while he was--
Mrs. PAINE. Not until after the assassination.
Mr. McCLOY. Not until after the assassination but before the assassination he had not complained about its being there or any difficulty in moving it?
Mrs. PAINE. No; he did not mention it, and I was not present when he moved it.
Representative FORD. Was he the person who used these various woodworking pieces of equipment?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Representative FORD. Did he work in the garage?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, he had--he made the workbench, and he had worked in the garage when he lived at the home and it has since been somewhat filled up.
Representative FORD. But during the time that you and Marina came back he didn't work in the garage?
Mrs. PAINE. He did still cut occasionally something on the saws. Indeed, did, too. I like to make children's blocks. I am trying to think when I last, if it is pertinent, when I used the saw.
Mr. McCLOY. Did you use the saw while the blanket was on floor?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I believe so.
Mr. McCLOY. You had to step over the blanket to do that?
Mrs. PAINE. Or around it.
Mr. McCLOY. Or around it. But in the course of your use of the saw you never had the necessity or the occasion to readjust the blanket or move it in any way?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. DULLES. Did we get the three locations here? I only see two.
Mr. JENNER. There were only two?
Mrs. PAINE. Two that I recall.
Mr. DULLES. Only two.
Representative FORD. She made a mistake in the first drawing of the second one.
Mrs. PAINE. I touched it by mistake.
Representative FORD. I think that ought to be clarified on the record.
Mr. JENNER. On the right-hand side of Commission Exhibit 429 there is an X or an arrow above which is written the words "on floor". That is the first location point at which you saw the package?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. On the left-hand side, the lower half of the photograph there is a double X.
Mrs. PAINE. Which I could not put in enough to give the proportion.
Mr. JENNER. You mean in the photograph?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Is that where you saw the package for the second time?
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Mrs. PAINE. Yes; as I have described it. The position I have described is more accurate than the XX.
Mr. JENNER. There is a red strip above the table with the tablecloth on it.
Mrs. PAINE. That is an accident with my hand.
Mr. JENNER. That was an accident on your part?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. So there are only two locations?
Mrs. PAINE. Right.
Mr. JENNER. Now, Mr. Chairman, may I reinsert the rifle in the package, on the opposite side from what it was before, and have the witness look at it?
Mr. McCLOY. You may.
We are back on the record.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. Chairman, I have now placed the opposite side of the rifle to the floor, and may the record show that the package is much flatter The rifle when inserted firstly was turned on the side of the bolt which operates the rifle which forced it up higher.
Now does the package look more familiar to you, Mrs. Paine?
Mrs. PAINE. I recall it as being more like this, not as lumpy as the other had been.
Mr. JENNER. More in the form it is now?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now directing your attention to the rifle itself, which is Commission Exhibit 189, when did you first see that rifle, if you have ever seen--
Mrs. PAINE. I saw a rifle I judge to have been the same one at the police station on the afternoon of November 22, I don't recall the strap.
Mr. JENNER. You don't recall at the time you saw it on the 22d of November in the police station that it had a strap?
Mrs. PAINE. It may well have had one but I don't specifically recall it. I was interested in the sight
Mr. JENNER. Had you ever seen this rifle prior to the afternoon of November 22?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
(At this point, Senator Cooper entered the hearing room.)
Mr. JENNER. Now, we do have some particular interest, Mrs. Paine, in the rifle strap. Had you ever had around your house a luggage strap or a guitar strap similar to the strap that appears on Commission Exhibit 139?
Mrs. PAINE. No; in fact, I don't recall ever seeing a strap of that nature.
Mr. JENNER. Whether in your home or anywhere else?
Mrs. PAINE. Precisely.
Mr. JENNER. And you are unable to identify or suggest its source?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. What do you have in your home, Mrs. Paine, by way of heavy wrapping paper?
Mrs. PAINE. I have the sort of paper you buy at the dime store to wrap packages, about 36 inches long, coming in a roll.
Mr. JENNER. Exhibiting to you Commission Exhibit No. 364, is the wrapping paper that you have in your home as heavy as that?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't believe it is quite that heavy and it certainly isn't quite that long. Well, it could have been cut the otherway, couldn't it, possibly?
Mr. JENNER. What about its shade, color?
Mrs. PAINE. It would be similar to that.
Mr. JENNER. Similar in shade.
Do you have the broad banded sticky tape or sticky tape of this nature?
Mrs. PAINE. There is no tape this wide in my home nor to my recollection has there ever been.
Mr. JENNER. You have whole rolls of this tape, of the paper in your home?
Mrs. PAINE. A whole roll.
Mr. JENNER. A whole roll?
Mrs. PAINE. Which I use for wrapping packages, mailing.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have string in your home that you use in attaching to this wrapping?
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Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you by any chance know the weight of the string that wrapped the blanket package as against the strength or weight of the string that you normally used in your home for packages?
Mrs. PAINE. It was similar in weight, rather thin.
Representative FORD. Color was the same?
Mrs. PAINE. I think it was a whitish color on the blanket and one of the rolls I have is that.
Representative FORD. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Would you say it was a relatively light package string?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Not a rope type?
Mrs. PAINE. Oh, no.
Mr. JENNER. And the string you saw on the blanket package was of the lighter weight type and not-
Mrs. PAINE. And of the lighter color too, I think.
Mr. JENNER. And the lighter color.
Now, you and Marina arrived home on the 24th of September, with the packages and contents of the station wagon, and, save the duffelbags, they were moved into your home, and everybody settled down?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. When next was there--did you hear from Lee Harvey Oswald at any time thereafter?
Mrs. PAINE. Not until the afternoon of the 4th, which I have already referred to.
Mr. JENNER. No word whatsoever from him from the 24th of September?
Mrs. PAINE. 23d we left him in New Orleans.
Mr. JENNER. 23d of September, until the 4th of October?
Mrs. PAINE. That is correct; no word.
Mr. JENNER. By letter, telephone?
Mrs. PAINE. Or pigeon.
Mr. JENNER. Or otherwise, anything whatsoever?
Mrs. PAINE. No word.
Mr. JENNER. Did you and Marina have discussions in that 10-day period about where Lee was or might be?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. None whatsoever? Did you have any discussion about the fact that you hadn't heard from Lee Harvey Oswald in 14 days or 10 days?
Mrs. PAINE. No; we didn't.
Mr. JENNER. No discussion on that at all. What did you and Marina discuss during that 10-day period?
Mrs. PAINE. I can't recall which was during that period or which was after; general conversation.
Mr. JENNER. Was it generally small talk, ladies talk about the house?
Mrs. PAINE. It was generally what my vocabulary permitted and then she would reminisce, her vocabulary being much larger, about her life in Russia. about the movies she had seen. We talked about the children and their health-We talked about washing, about cooking.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have ladies visit. Did ladies in the neighborhood come and visit?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you go to neighbors homes?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. With Marina?
Mrs. PAINE. Again, I can't recall which was before October 4th and which was after, but there was the normal flow nonetheless--
Mr. JENNER. And interested people?
Mrs. PAINE. Of my visiting at other people's homes and particularly Mrs. Roberts or Mrs. Craig.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Roberts was your next door neighbor and Mrs. Craig was how many doors down or across the street?
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Mrs. PAINE. She is, you have to drive. You have to drive to her home. She is the young German woman to whom I referred.
Mr. JENNER. Yes. Was there any discussion during this 10-day period of Marina's relations with her husband, Lee?
Mrs. PAINE. Not that I recall.
Mr. JENNER. She expressed no concern during this 10-day period, that no word had been heard from Lee?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Did he evidence any--did she do or say anything during that period to indicate she did not expect to hear from him during that 10 days period?
Mrs. PAINE. No; she did not.
Mr. JENNER. There was nothing?
Mrs. PAINE. There was nothing.
Mr. JENNER. Did it come to your mind that it was curious you hadn't heard from Lee Harvey Oswald for 10 whole days?
Mrs. PAINE. No; it didn't seem curious. I know he had spent at least 2 weeks looking for work on previous occasions in different cities and I thought he wanted to find something before he communicated.
Mr. JENNER. But in view of the affection that had been evidenced on the day of departure on the 23d, You were not bothered by the fact that not even a telephone call had been received in 10 days?
Mrs. PAINE. If he was not in town I wouldn't have at all expected a telephone call because that would have cost him dearly.
Mr. JENNER. He might have made it collect.
Mrs. PAINE. I didn't expect that either.
Mr. JENNER. But there was no telephone call, there was no postcard, there was no letter.
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. There was nothing?
Mrs. PAINE. There could well have been a letter but there was none.
Mr. DULLES. Where did you think he was at this time?
Mrs. PAINE. Houston.
Mr. DULLES. Houston, looking for a job? Houston?
Mrs. PAINE. Houston, possibly.
Mr. JENNER. Because of the conversation on the morning of the 23d, because of the possibility of his going to Houston or Philadelphia, your frame of mind was that he was either in Houston or Philadelphia?
Mrs. PAINE. I thought he probably was in Houston. The Philadelphia reference was very slight.
Mr. JENNER. Was there any reference or discussion between you and Marina during that period of the possibility that he was off in Houston looking for work?
Mrs. PAINE. No, there was not.
Mr. JENNER. You are sure there was just no discussion of the subject at all during that whole 10 days period with Marina?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall any discussion of it.
Mr. JENNER. She expressed no concern and you none?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. That nobody had heard from Lee.
All right.
You heard from him on the 4th of October?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Would you give the Commission the circumstances, the time of day and how it came about?
Mrs. PAINE. He telephoned in early afternoon, something after lunchtime.
Mr. JENNER. The phone rang. Did you answer it?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And did you recognize the voice?
Mrs. PAINE. He asked to speak to Marina.
Mr. JENNER. Whose voice was it?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, after he asked to speak to Marina, I was certain it was Lee's.
Mr. JENNER. What did you say?
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Mrs. PAINE. I said "here" and gave her the phone.
Mr. JENNER. You didn't say "where are you", or "I am glad to hear from you, where have you been?"
Mrs. PAINE. No I thought that was her's to ask. He wished to speak to her and I gave her the phone and, of course, that is what was then asked. I heard her say to him.--
Mr. JENNER. You heard her side of the conversation, did you?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. All right. What did you hear her say?
Mrs. PAINE. I heard her say, "No, Mrs. Paine, she can't come and pick you up."
Mr. JENNER. Was she speaking in Russian?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Throughout?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. When Lee asked for Marina, did he speak in English or Russian?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall. And Marina went on to say that Mrs. Paine, "Ruth has just been to Parkland Hospital this morning to donate blood, she shouldn't be going driving now to pick you up."
Mr. JENNER. Did she refer to you as Mrs. Paine or Ruth?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I am trying to make it clear who is being talked about.
Mr. JENNER. I see. You might give your testimony the wrong cast.
Mrs. PAINE. No; of course. She referred to me as "Ruth" or "she".
To Junie, she called me Aunt Ruth. To Junie, speaking of me to her little girl, she referred to me as Aunt Ruth.
Mr. JENNER. You are giving the conversation now, the end of it that you heard?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. Then I heard Marina say "Why didn't you call?"
Mr. JENNER. You did hear her say that?
Mrs. PAINE. I believe so. I certainly remember her saying it afterward. She hung up and she explained the conversation to me.
Mr. JENNER. What did she say to you?
Mrs. PAINE. That he had asked for me to come in to downtown Dallas to pick him up and she said no; he should find his own way.
Mr. JENNER. To come to downtown Dallas?
Mrs. PAINE. To come to downtown Dallas to pick him up, and she never asked me whether I wanted to or would have, told him, no; it was an imposition, that I had just given blood at Parkland Hospital.
Mr. JENNER. And you had in fact given blood?
Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes; indeed.
Mr. JENNER. That morning?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, I have a card or the FBI does to that effect. Then she said that he had said that he was at the Y, staying at the Y, and had been in town a couple of days, to which she said, "Why didn't you call right away?", in other words, "why didn't you call right away upon getting to town?"
Then he also asked whether he could come out; this was, of course, during the conversation, and she referred the question to me, could he come out for the weekend, and I said, yes, he could.
Mr. JENNER. This was while she was still talking on the telephone?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. Prior to his asking for a ride. So then they hung up and I went grocery shopping, and when--
Mr. JENNER. You left the home?
Mrs. PAINE. I left the home.
Mr. JENNER. You have now exhausted your recollection as to everything that was said to you by Marina after she hung up and was relating to you, at least a summary of the conversation with her husband?
Mrs. PAINE. I believe it was also said that he wanted to look for work in Dallas. He was here, staying at the Y. Could he come out for the weekend. He planned to look for work in Dallas.
Mr. JENNER. I see.
Did you say anything about--were you stimulated to say anything to Marina
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about any of the subject matters of that conversation as she reported it to you?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. You expressed no response, made no response to her having made a statement to her husband that--of her surprise as to why he hadn't called and if he were just over in Dallas and staying at the Y?
Mrs. PAINE. I thought that but I didn't try to put it in Russian.
Mr. JENNER. There was no discussion is all I am getting at.
What did she say as to his coming out by whatever means he could get there? Was there any discussion of that?
Mrs. PAINE. It implied whatever means, that he shouldn't ask me to--
Mr. JENNER. He was coming?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. But that you were not going to go to get him?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you left and went to the grocery store or market?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. When you returned, was Lee at your home?
Mrs. PAINE. He was already there, which surprised me greatly.
Mr. JENNER. Why did it surprise you?
Mrs. PAINE. Because I thought he would have to take a public bus to Irving, they run very rarely if at all during the afternoon, and I thought he would have considerable difficulty getting out. I thought it would be at least supper time before he got there.
Mr. JENNER. How much time elapsed between the time you left and the time you returned?
Mrs. PAINE. Shopping? Oh, I don't know, perhaps an hour, perhaps a little less.
Representative FORD. Where did you go shopping?
Mrs. PAINE. The grocery store in the same parking lot where we practiced.
Mr. JENNER. That was three blocks away?
Mrs. PAINE. It is a little more than that. These would be long blocks.
Mr. JENNER. Did any conversation ensue as to how he had, by what means he had come from Dallas to Irving?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. He then said that he had hitchhiked out, caught a ride with someone who brought him straight to the door, a Negro man.
Mr. JENNER. To your door?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. To whom he said that he had been away from his wife and child and he was just now getting home, and the man kindly brought him directly to the door.
Mr. JENNER. Where did this conversation take place?
Mrs. PAINE. In the home that afternoon.
Mr. JENNER. When you returned to your home, that was in the afternoon, wasn't it?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Where was Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall.
Mr. JENNER. Was he inside the home or outside?
Mrs. PAINE. Inside, I believe.
Mr. JENNER. Did any conversation ensue as to where he had been in that 10-day interim?
Mrs. PAINE. Where he had been?
Mr. JENNER. Where he had been in the intervening 10 days?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; he said to me that he had been in Houston and that he hadn't been able to find work there and was now going to try in Dallas.
Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about Philadelphia?
Mrs. PAINE. Nothing.
Mr. JENNER. From your testimony I gather he did not say anything about Mexico?
Mrs. PAINE. No; he did not.
Mr. JENNER. Was Marina present when he stated to you that he had been in Houston looking for work?
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Mrs. PAINE. That is my recollection of it; yes.
Mr. JENNER. You never had any conversation with her up to the 23d or 22d of November on the subject of whether Lee had or had not been in Mexico?
Mrs. PAINE. We never had such a conversation.
Mr. JENNER. Despite your having read that letter on the 10th of November in which he stated that he had been?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. Now there was no occasion in that letter that she may have known that he went any more than there was certain indication to my mind that this was true and not false. Had I looked at the peso, this would have been the only occasion that she knew.
Mr. JENNER. But the fact is, apart from your rationalization now there was no conversation on that subject?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. How long did he remain in your home?
Mrs. PAINE. Monday morning--
The CHAIRMAN. Before you get to that, I want to ask a question about giving the blood that day. Did you give it for a particular person or for a blood bank?
Mrs. PAINE. It was for Marina. For each of the persons who come in under county care they ask you to donate two pints of blood, one at a time.
The CHAIRMAN. I see. And you donated one pint for her?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
The CHAIRMAN. Thank you.
Mr. JENNER. How long did he remain in your home on this visit?
Mrs. PAINE. Until Monday morning, the 7th of October, almost noon, in fact, when I took him to an Intercity bus at the Irving bus station.
Mr. JENNER. This is that bus terminal approximately 3 miles from your home?
Mrs. PAINE. That same day I gave him a map to assist him in job hunting.
Mr. JENNER. All right. I would like to get to that.
I show you what is in evidence, I don't know whether it is received or not; it is a Commission Exhibit No. 128, and ask you if you have ever seen that before?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I have.
Mr. JENNER. Is that the map to which you now have reference?
Mrs. PAINE. I would say it is.
Mr. JENNER. What did you do with the map with respect to Lee Harvey Oswald on this occasion?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall who asked, who mentioned a map first, but, of course, I knew, and he did, that it would be a useful thing to have job hunting. I think he asked if I had a map of the city of Dallas and I said, yes, I did, and I can easily get another at the gas station, one of these.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, it is your clear recollection that this document, Commission Exhibit No. 128, a map, is the map that you gave Lee Harvey Oswald, this was October 7th?
Mrs. PAINE. It was certainly this kind of map, whether it is the identical map, I couldn't say for sure, but I much prefer the ENCO map of the city and this is the kind I always get to use. So this is the kind I had in mind.
Mr. JENNER. So, to the best of your recollection, the coloring has been changed a little bit because of attempts to draw fingerprints from it?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. But your best recollection now, observing it, is that this is the document?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Would you examine it carefully and see that there might be something on it that would arrest your attention as your having placed thereon or Lee?
Mrs. PAINE. I have examined this carefully and a copy of it.
Mr. JENNER. On other occasions?
Mrs. PAINE. On other occasions, and I could not at any time find a marking that I had made.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall having made markings?
Mrs. PAINE. I do not recall having made any markings on this particular map. Sometime on some maps I knew I had made remarks where I was going.
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Mr. JENNER. Just for the purpose of the record, may I reverse it, and you see no markings on the reverse side, I take it?
Mrs. PAINE. No; which is Fort Worth, not Dallas, isn't it?
Mr. JENNER. Yes; it is. All right, now tell us about that incident?
Mrs. PAINE. The map?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. PAINE. I have.
Mr. JENNER. That is all there was to it?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you suggest, was there any discussion of, particular places of employment?
Mrs. PAINE. There was no such discussion.
Mr. JENNER. As to which he might inquire?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. What did he-did you hand him the map?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And was it opened before you and Lee in your discussions?
Mrs. PAINE. No, no; we didn't discuss. He said, do I have a map, and I said, yes, I do, you may have it.
Mr. JENNER. You handed it to him, and that was all that occurred?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And did he place it in his pocket or did he go into his room or his and Marina's room and place it there?
Mrs. PAINE. He may have already been on his way to the bus station when this conversation occurred and took it with him.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
I notice what appears to be a notation that the document has not as yet been offered in evidence, Mr. Chairman, and I offer in evidence, therefore, as Commission Exhibit No. 128, the document heretofore identified by that exhibit number.
Mr. McCLOY. It may be admitted.
(The document referred to, heretofore marked as Commission Exhibit No. 128 for identification, was received in evidence.)
Mr. JENNER. Was Marina present during this discussion of his job hunting?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall. I seem to think we were on our way out already to go in our car to the bus station.
Mr. JENNER. Did Marina accompany you?
Mrs. PAINE. No; she did not.
Mr. JENNER. She did not?
Mrs. PAINE. She stayed home with the baby. My children probably went with me, I don't recall specifically.
Mr. JENNER. That is the baby, you mean June?
Mrs. PAINE. June.
Mr. JENNER. You drove into the bus terminal approximately 3 miles from your home. Did you remain until the bus came along?
Mrs. PAINE. I think so.
Mr. JENNER. You saw him depart?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Was anything said about where he would reside in Dallas before he left?
Mrs. PAINE. I am not certain, but I think he said the Y was rather expensive. He was going to look for a room.
Mr. McCLOY. What was the date you took him into the bus station?
Mrs. PAINE. That is the 7th of October.
Mr. McCLOY. The 7th of October?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Was there an occasion in this early period that you drove him all the way into Dallas?
Mrs. PAINE. I can't recall ever driving him all the way into Dallas.
Mr. JENNER. At any time?
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Mrs. PAINE. We drove, except to the Oak Cliff Station for this driver training test.
Mr. JENNER. That is the only occasion?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; that is the only one I recall. Can you refresh my memory. I can't think of any other.
Mr. JENNER. You are clear that you drove him from your home to the bus terminal in Irving?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And either you left immediately Or waited to see him board the bus, but it is your definite recollection you did not drive him to the Dallas downtown area on that occasion?
Mrs. PAINE. Oh, I did once drive him to the Dallas downtown area, because I recall where he got out. Now why I was going--yes, I think I may know why I was going.
Mr. JENNER. Fix the time first.
Mrs. PAINE. I do recall now driving him into downtown Dallas because I was already going and it was probably Monday, the 14th of October.
Mr. JENNER. This is the day before his employment began with the Texas School Book Depository?
Mrs. PAINE. It would have been 2 days before, the day before he applied. I have several recollections but which day they attach to is not quite as clear.
I recall taking him to the bus. I recall picking him up at the bus. I recall going in and dropping him off at a corner of Ross Avenue and something else, which was near the employment office.
Mr. JENNER. In downtown Dallas?
Mrs. PAINE. Near the employment office station. I was on my way to get a key fixed on my Russian typewriter which is what was taking me downtown. I hadn't been thinking--I at no time made a purposeful trip just to take him to downtown Dallas, but I was going and he went along and I am pretty sure that was a Monday and he got out at that corner and Marina was with me and we went on to get this typewriter fixed either to pick it up or to leave it. I am quite
certain it was the 12th, Saturday, that I picked him up at the station.
Mr. JENNER. At the bus terminal?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. And I am pretty certain that it was the 7th I took him to the bus station. I recall it being already noon, and I thought he might well have started looking for a job earlier that day.
Mr. JENNER. When next did you hear from Mr. Oswald?
Mrs. PAINE. After the 7th. Probably on the 12th when he called again to ask if he could come out for the weekend.
Mr. JENNER. The 12th is what day of the week?
Mrs. PAINE. The 12th is a Saturday.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall that he did call?
Mrs. PAINE. Pardon?
Mr. JENNER. Did you recall that he did telephone and ask permission to come?
Mrs. PAINE. Oh, indeed he did.
Mr. JENNER. Did he always do that?
Mrs. PAINE. He always did that with the exception of the 21st of November.
Mr. JENNER. We will get to that in a very few moments.
Mr. McCLOY. Before you get to that you said you went all the way into Dallas with this errand, that Marina was with you.
Mrs. PAINE. That is my recollection.
Mr. McCLOY. What did you do with the children?
Mrs. PAINE. We always take them.
Mr. McCLOY. Took them all, put them all in the station wagon?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; big station wagon.
Mr. JENNER. By the way, I would like to go back a little. When you picked him up at the bus station on the afternoon of the 4th of October, what did he have
Mrs. PAINE. On the afternoon of the 12th, around noon of the 12th.
Mr. JENNER. Please, when he first returned to Irving after--
Mrs. PAINE. He hitchhiked out.
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Mr. JENNER. On the occasion that he told you he had been in Houston looking for a job?
Mrs. PAINE. The 4th, he hitchhiked out.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
It is that occasion that I have in mind.
What did he have with him in the way of luggage?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall certainly. It does seem to me that I remember he, took the zipper bag on Monday, the following Monday, with him to town, along with some clothes over his arm, ironed. shirts, things that are hung on hangers.
Mr. JENNER. With respect to that trip--
Mrs. PAINE. You must remember I was shopping when he arrived on the afternoon of the 4th.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. PAINE. So I didn't see him when he arrived that moment.
Mr. JENNER. But you do have a recollection of having seen the zipper bag on Monday?
Mrs. PAINE. The 7th.
Mr. JENNER. When you took him to the bus terminal for the purpose of his returning to downtown Dallas?
Mrs. PAINE. To find a room and live there and have sufficient clothing there. That is my best recollection.
Mr. JENNER. Is that the first time you had seen the zipper bag?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. From the time you had left New Orleans on the 23d?
Mrs. PAINE. So far as I recall.
Mr. JENNER. Did you notice anything else in the way of pieces of luggage in your home after you came back from the shopping center that afternoon of October 4th that hadn't been there prior to his arrival?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. The only piece of luggage of which you have any recollection then is the zipper bag which you saw him take with him when he left on Monday morning, the 7th
Mrs. PAINE. And that is, I would not say a certain recollection. But that is the best I have.
Mr. JENNER. It is your best recollection anyhow?
Mrs PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, when you returned to your home did you have any discussion with Marina about Lee's departure and his future plans and her understanding of them?
Mrs. PAINE. No; nothing I recall specifically.
Mr. JENNER. None at all.
What discussion went on between you and Marina, that is the subject matter with respect to his weekend visits?
Mrs. PAINE. She wanted to be certain it was all right for him to come out, you know that it wasn't too much of an imposition on me. We got into discussing his efforts to find a job. Then Monday, the 14th as best as I recall, was the first time we talked about him, more than to say it was too bad he didn't find something. This is the--
Mr. JENNER. During the course of the week was there discussion between you and Marina respecting Lee Oswald's attempt at employment?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Now, there came an occasion, did there not, that weekend or the following weekend at which there was a discussion at least by you with some neighbors with respect to efforts to obtain employment for Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mrs. PAINE. As best I can reconstruct it this was, while having coffee at my immediate neighbors, Mrs. Ed Roberts, and also present was Mrs. Bill Randle, and Lee had said over the weekend that he had gotten the last of the unemployment compensation checks that were due him, and that it had been smaller than the others had been, and disappointing in its smallness and he looked very discouraged when he went to look for work.
Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about amount?
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Mrs. PAINE. I didn't hear the question.
Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about amount
Mrs. PAINE. No; he didn't, just less.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mrs. PAINE. And the subject of his looking for work and that he hadn't found work for a week, came up while we were having coffee, the four young mothers at Mrs. Roberts' house, and Mrs. Randle mentioned that her younger brother, Wesley Frazier thought they needed another person at the Texas School Book Depository where Wesley worked.
Marina then asked me, after we had gone home, asked me if I would call--
Mr. JENNER. Was Marina present during this discussion?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; Marina was present, yes, indeed.
Mr. JENNER. Did she understand the conversation?
Mrs. PAINE. It was a running translation, running, faulty translation going on.
Mr. JENNER. You were translating for her?
Mrs. PAINE. I was acting as her translator. And then after we came home she asked me if I would call the School Book Depository to see if indeed there was the possibility of an opening, and at her request, I did telephone--
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, please.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. While you were still in the Roberts' home was there any discussion at all of the subject mentioned by you or by Mrs. Randle or Mrs. Roberts or anyone else, of calls to be made, or that might be made, to the Texas School Book Depository in this connection?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall this discussion. As I recall it was a suggestion made by Marina to me after we got home, but I may be wrong.
Mr. JENNER. But that is your best recollection that you are now testifying?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You reached home and Marina suggested that "Would you please call the Texas School Depository?"
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. What did you do?
Mrs. PAINE. I looked up the number in the book, and dialed it, was told I would need to speak to Mr. Truly, who was at the warehouse. The phone was taken to Mr. Truly, and I talked with him and said--
Mr. JENNER. You mean the call was transferred by the operator?
Mrs. PAINE. To Mr. Truly, and I said I know of a young man whose wife was staying in my house, the wife was expecting a child, they already had a little girl and he had been out of work for a while and was very interested in getting any employment and his name, and was there a possibility of an opening there, and Mr. Truly said he didn't know whether he had an opening, that the young man should apply himself in person.
Mr. JENNER. Which made sense.
Mrs. PAINE. Made very good sense for a personnel man to say.
Mr. JENNER. Did you make more than one call to this Texas School Book Depository?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Only the one?
Mrs. PAINE. Only the one.
Mr. JENNER. What was the date of this call?
Mrs. PAINE. Reconstructing it, I believe it was October 14.
Mr. JENNER. What day of the week is October 14?
Mrs. PAINE. It is a Monday.
Mr. JENNER. Following that call and your talking with Mr. Truly, what did you do?
Mrs. PAINE. Began to get dinner. Then Lee call the house.
Mr. JENNER. In the evening?
Mrs. PAINE. In the early evening.
Mr. JENNER. Did you talk with him?
Mrs. PAINE. Marina talked with him, then asked--then Marina asked me to
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tell Lee in English what had transpired regarding the possible job opening, and then I did say that there might be an opening in the School Book Depository, that Mr. Truly was the man to apply to. Shall I go on?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. PAINE. The next day--
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, I meant go on as far as the conversation was concerned.
Mrs. PAINE. That is all there was.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, I would like to return just for a moment to the conversation in the Roberts' home.
Was any possible place of employment in addition to the Texas School Depository mentioned?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. You have no recollection of any other suggestion as to possible places of employment?
Mrs. PAINE. I have no recollection of that.
Mr. JENNER. You have no recollection of any other, at least two other places being suggested, and you, in turn, stating that they would be unsatisfactory, one because an automobile had to be used, or it would be necessary for Lee to have an automobile, and the other that he was lacking in the possible qualifications needed? None of that refreshes your recollection?
Mrs. PAINE. None of that refreshes my recollection. I certainly know that I thought, for instance, he couldn't have applied to Bell Helicopter or to any place apart from the city area.
Mr. JENNER. But Bell Helicopter was not mentioned?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall it being mentioned.
Mr. JENNER. Your husband-is employed by Bell Helicopter, is he not?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Had you made an inquiry of your husband as to the possibility of employment by Lee Harvey Oswald with Bell Helicopter?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I hadn't, especially knowing that he had no way of getting there.
Mr. JENNER. Unless he knew how to drive a car?
Mrs. PAINE. Unless he knew how to drive a car.
Mr. JENNER. You didn't believe he was proficient enough at this moment to operate it?
Mrs. PAINE. We have got on record here that I gave him the first lesson on the 13th of October.
Mr. JENNER. And in any event were you aware he had no driver's license?
Mrs. PAINE. I certainly was.
Mr. JENNER. Especially that week?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you give him the telephone number and the address of the Texas School Book Depository on the occasion when you talked to him, this is the 14th?
Mrs. PAINE. The address, I don't think so. I probably gave the phone number. I don't recall that I gave him an address.
Mr. JENNER. Directing your attention to your address book, you have an entry in your address book of the Texas School Depository, do you not? Would you turn to that page?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I have it here.
Mr. JENNER. Is there an entry of address of the Texas School Depository on that page?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; which I believe I made after he gained employment there.
Mr. JENNER. Rather than at the time that you advised him of this possibility?
Mrs. PAINE. Indeed.
Mr. JENNER. Have you made an entry of the telephone number of the Texas School Book Depository on that date?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I have and of the address.
Mr. JENNER. And that is the telephone number and the address of the Texas School Depository Building where--
Mrs. PAINE. On Elm Street.
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Mr. JENNER. I heard you mention the Texas School Depository warehouse Did you think the warehouse was at 411 Elm?
Mrs. PAINE. No. I had seen a sign on a building as I went along one of the limited access highways that leads into Dallas, saying "Texas School Book Depository Warehouse" and there was the only building that had registered on my consciousness as being Texas School Book Depository.
I was not aware, hadn't taken in the idea of there being two buildings and that there was one on Elm, though, I copied the address from the telephone book, and could well have made that notation in my mind but I didn't.
The first I realized that there was a building on Elm was when I heard on the television on the morning of the 22d of November that a shot had been fired from such a building.
Mr. JENNER. For the purpose of this record then I would like to emphasize you were under the impression then, were you, that Lee Harvey Oswald was employed?
Mrs. PAINE. At the warehouse.
Mr. JENNER. Other than at 411, a place at 411 Elm?
Mrs. PAINE. I thought he worked at the warehouse. I had in fact, pointed out the building to my children going into Dallas later after he had gained employment.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever discuss with Lee Harvey Oswald where he actually was employed, that is the location of the building?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I didn't.
Mr. JENNER. Did he ever mention it?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. There never was any discussion between you and, say, young Mr. Frazier or Mrs. Randle or anyone in the neighborhood as to where the place of employment is located?
Mrs. PAINE. No. It may be significant here to say, my letter to which I have already referred--
Mr. JENNER. Commission Exhibit No.
Mrs. PAINE. 425, which says, "Lee Oswald is looking for work in Dallas, does not give a time of day.
Mr. JENNER. What is the date of that letter?
Mrs. PAINE. October 14, Monday.
Mr. JENNER. This is the letter to your mother?
Mrs. PAINE. But I don't normally write letters any time except when the children are asleep, they sometimes nap but usually this is in the evening.
If it were in the evening it means that he had gotten the suggestion as to a place to apply, but I didn't mention that. I only mentioned that he was looking and was discouraged.
I bring this out simply to say that I had no real hopes that he would get a job at the School Book Depository.
I didn't think it too likely that he would, but it was worth a try.
Mr. JENNER. Did you hear from him then either on the 14th or 15th in respect to his effort to obtaining employment at the Texas School Depository?
Mrs. PAINE. He called immediately on Tuesday, the 15th, after he had been accepted and said he would start work the next day.
Mr. JENNER. When you say immediately, what time of day was that?
Mrs. PAINE. Midmorning I would say, which was contrary to his usual practice of calling in the early evening.
Mr. JENNER. By the way, is the call from Dallas, Tex., to Irving a toll call?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. What is its cost, 10 cents?
Mrs. PAINE. I expect so.
Mr. JENNER. Did you answer the phone on the occasion he called?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. What happened?
Mrs. PAINE. He asked for Marina.
Mr. JENNER. He said nothing to you about his success?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
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Mr. JENNER. As soon as you answered he asked for Marina?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did he identify himself?
Mrs. PAINE. No; but I am certain he knew that I knew who he was.
Mr. JENNER. You recognized his voice, did you?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You called her to the phone.
Did you hear her end of the conversation?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. What took place by way of-- of conversation?
Mrs. PAINE. She said, "Hurray, he has got a job." Immediately telling me as she still talked to the telephone that he had been accepted for work at the school book depository and thanks to me and she said, "We must thank Mrs. Randle."
Mr. JENNER. Did you return to the telephone and speak with him?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. You did not. Where was he residing then, did you know?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I did not know.
Mr. JENNER. Had you had any information that he was not residing at the YMCA?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. How did you come by that information?
Mrs. PAINE. He gave me a telephone number, possibly this same weekend.
Mr. JENNER. That is of importance, Mrs. Paine. Would you give us the circumstances, please?
Mrs. PAINE. He said that he was at a--
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, where was he when he said this?
Mrs. PAINE. He was at the home so far as I remember. It might have been during one of his telephone calls to the house, but I don't think so. He rarely talked with me when he was out.
Mr. JENNER. This would be the weekend of what?
Mrs. PAINE. So this must have been the weekend of the 12th of October, the same weekend.
Mr. JENNER. That was the weekend following his return to Dallas on the 7th of October?
Mrs. PAINE. Fourth of October.
Mr. JENNER. He departed on the 7th.
Mrs. PAINE. His return to Dallas, I am sorry.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; now, give it as chronologically as you can; how you came by that telephone number, the circumstances under which it was given to you.
Mrs. PAINE. He said this is the telephone number.
Mr. JENNER. Was Marina present?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. He said of the room where he was staying, renting a room, and I could reach him here if she went into labor.
Mr. JENNER. I see, the coming of the baby was imminent?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. When was the baby expected?
Mrs. PAINE. Any time after the first week in October. Any time, in other words.
Mr. JENNER. The obstetrician predicted the birth of the child as when?
Mrs. PAINE. As due on the 22d.
Mr. JENNER. Did Marina have a different notion?
Mrs. PAINE. She thought it might be due around the 8th.
Mr. JENNER. So there was a considerable variance in the expectation between the date and when the baby actually did arrive? When did the baby actually arrive?
Mrs. PAINE. On the 20th of October, a Sunday.
Mr. JENNER. Did he give you more than one telephone number?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr JENNER. At this occasion did he give you more than one telephone number?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
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Mr. JENNER. Just stick to this particular occasion. What telephone number--did you record it?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. In what?
Mrs. PAINE. In ink in my telephone book.
Mr. JENNER. Your telephone and address book?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Have you opened that telephone address book to the page in which you have made that recording?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I have.
Mr. JENNER. Is that the page you identified yesterday?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, Mr. Chairman, may I examine it for a moment here.
Now, relate for the record the telephone number that Mr. Oswald gave you, the first one he gave you on this particular occasion?
Mrs. PAINE. The number was WH 2-1985.
Mr. JENNER. And that is at the bottom of the page written in ink.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Is that in your handwriting?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is.
Mr. JENNER. What exchange is "WH" in Dallas?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't know. I did not know. I know now, maybe I know, Whitehall, something. I know now what it is, but I didn't know then.
Mr. JENNER. Did he on that occasion say anything about where the apartment or room was?
Mrs. PAINE. No; he did not.
Mr. JENNER. He did not give you an address?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Didn't locate it in any area in Dallas?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. All he gave you was the telephone number?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything that would indicate to you that you are other than free to call him and ask for him by his surname you knew him by?
Mrs. PAINE. No; he did not make such a limitation.
Mr. JENNER. I take it from your testimony that the number was given to you, at least the discussion was, so that you could call him in connection with the oncoming event of the birth of his child?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Am I correct about this?
Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Now, you have mentioned a second number that Mr. Oswald, Lee Harvey Oswald, gave you. Did you receive that second number subsequent to the birth of Rachel or prior to that time?
Mrs. PAINE. Also prior to the birth of Rachel.
Mr. JENNER. Now, relate for the Commission the circumstances under which you received a second number?
Mrs. PAINE. He gave me a second number, I suppose by phone, but I don't recall.
Mr. JENNER. When?
Mrs. PAINE. It was certainly before the birth of the baby because again it was so that I could reach him if she went to the hospital.
Mr. JENNER. He called you or related this to you in your home?
Mrs. PAINE. What?
Mr. JENNER. He either called you by telephone or he was present in your home and gave you the second number?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Which recollection serves you best, that he called or that he gave it to you in your home?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall.
Mr. JENNER. What did he say?
Mrs. PAINE. He said he moved to different rooms, was paying a dollar a
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week more, $8 instead of $7; incidentally, I needed to know how much he was paying in order to put this on the form of Parkland Hospital, but that it was a little more comfortable and he had television privileges and privileges to use the refrigerator. And he gave me this number.
Mr. JENNER. This was after he obtained employment with the Texas School Book Depository, was it?
Mrs. PAINE. I would rationalize that I have judged so.
Mr. JENNER. Is it your best recollection?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. On the second occasion did he give you the location or even the area in Dallas where his second room was located?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Did you inquire of him?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. No address?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Was the telephone number given you with any reservation as to when you might call him?
Mrs. PAINE. No such reservation.
Mr. JENNER. Any indication that you should ask him, asking for him by other than his surname by which you knew him?
Mrs. PAINE. No such indication.
Mr. JENNER. Now, the baby was born on the--
Mrs. PAINE. Twentieth.
Mr. JENNER. Twentieth of October. Was Lee present, in town, I mean?
Mrs. PAINE. He was at the house in Irving when labor began, and stayed at the house to take care of June and my two children who were sleeping while I took Marina to the hospital since I was the one who could drive.
Mr. JENNER. All right. The 20th is--when did you take her to the hospital?
Mrs. PAINE. Around 9 o'clock in the evening.
Mr. JENNER. What day?
Mrs. PAINE. Sunday, the 20th of October.
Mr. JENNER. And Lee Harvey Oswald was out there on that weekend on one of his regular visits?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. The first one since he had employment.
Representative FORD. Did you ever call either one of those numbers?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. We will get to it.
Mr. JENNER. You will forgive me because I would like to bring out the particular circumstances of the call.
Representative FORD. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did Lee go back into town on Monday to go to work?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; he did. I informed him in the morning that he had a baby girl. He was already asleep when 1 got back--no; that is not right. He was not asleep when I got back from the hospital, but he had gone to bed, and I stayed up and waited to call the hospital to hear what word there was. So, that I knew after he was already asleep that he had a baby girl. I told him in the morning before he went to work.
Mr. JENNER. You called him in Dallas?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. I am a little confused.
Mrs. PAINE. No; I am sorry, I will begin again. I took her to the hospital and then I returned. I didn't feel I could stay. I thought I should get back to my children.
Mr. JENNER. This was Sunday night?
Mrs. PAINE. Sunday night.
He went to bed I stayed up and waited until what I considered a proper time and then called the hospital to hear what news there was. They had implied I could come and visit, too, but that would have been incorrect, and learned that he had a baby girl. I then went to bed and told him in the morning.
Mr. JENNER. You did not awaken him then?
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Mrs. PAINE. I did not awaken him. I thought about it and I decided if he was not interested in being awake I would tell him in the morning.
Mr. JENNER. And the morning was Monday?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Having learned that he was the father of a baby girl, I assume you told him that?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did he go to work that day?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did he return to Irving that evening?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. It was agreed when he left that he would return that evening.
Mr. JENNER. How did he--was he brought back to Irving that evening?
Mrs. PAINE. I imagine Wesley brought him.
Mr. JENNER. At least you did not?
Mrs. PAINE. I did not.
Mr. JENNER. Did he visit with Marina at the hospital that evening?
Mrs. PAINE. When he arrived it was not decided whether he would go to the hospital or not. He thought not, and I thought he should, and encouraged him to go.
Mr. JENNER. Why did he think he ought not to go?
Mrs. PAINE. I am uncertain about this. This thought crossed my mind that perhaps he thought they would find out. he was working, but I had already told them he was working since I had been asked at the hospital when she was admitted and I mentioned this and it may have changed his mind about going, but this is conjecture on my part.
Mr. JENNER. In any event he did go?
Mrs. PAINE. He did go. It was a good thing as he was the only one admitted, I was not either a father or grandmother so I was not permitted to get in.
Mr. JENNER. I see, and you waited until his visit was over and returned home with him?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Did he return to work the next morning?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; he did.
Mr. JENNER. When next did you hear from him?
Mrs. PAINE. The following Friday he came out again.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know how he returned to Dallas that following morning, that is the 22d?
Mrs. PAINE. Probably went with Wesley also.
Mr. JENNER. And he came out the following weekend, did he?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. That was his birthday.
Mr. JENNER. The 18th of October is his birthday. Did you have a party for him?
Mrs. PAINE. We had a cake; yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Was that weekend uneventful?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, Marina was already home.
Mr. JENNER. The baby was now home. She came home very quickly?
Mrs. PAINE. Very quickly, a day and a half. She was home on Tuesday, the 16th, is that right-- skipped a day, the 22d. So that his party was the week before, too. I was wrong then.
Mr. JENNER. When did he return, on Friday of that week?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, which was the 25th. I was mistaken.
Mr. JENNER. Did he call in each day in the interim?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr JENNER. And talk to Marina and to you?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, to Marina.
Mr. JENNER. Inquire about the baby?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You overheard some of the conversation?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Was anything said about the nature of his reaction to his position
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at the Texas School Book Depository on the second weekend when he came home?
Mrs. PAINE. You are talking about the weekend of the 26th?
Mr. JENNER. That is right.
Mrs. PAINE. No; I don't recall anything being said.
Mr. JENNER. Now, the next weekend was November 1st to 3d, which is Friday to Sunday, is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE. Right.
Mr. JENNER. Was he home on that weekend?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; he was.
Mr. JENNER. And did anything eventful occur on that weekend?
Mrs. PAINE. Just a minute. What I was looking for, I wanted to find out whether I had taught a Russian lesson to my single student whom I saw some Saturday afternoon on that weekend, and I recall that I did not. So, the answer is no. I was there that Saturday. May I say if there was a weekend other than October 12 when he came on Saturday instead of Friday night, it was to have been that weekend?
Mr. JENNER. Which weekend?
Mrs. PAINE. The weekend of the 1st to the 3d. That is my best recollection anyway.
Mr. JENNER. All right. But other than that possibility, there was nothing--it was a normal weekend at your home?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, following that weekend, which was the weekend of November 8 through 10, I think you have already described that weekend. That was the one on which you went to the Texas driver's application bureau, is it not?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. I recall him writing something on the early morning of Saturday--this "Dear Sirs" letter.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; this is the letter or draft of letter dealing with his reporting his visit to Mexico.
Mrs. PAINE. Or stating that he had done such a thing, which I did not fully credit.
Mr. JENNER. Did he come the following weekend, that is the weekend of November 15 through 17?
Mrs. PAINE. No; he did not.
Mr. JENNER. Why?
Mrs. PAINE. Marina asked him not to.
Mr. JENNER. This was the weekend preceding the ill-fated assassination day?
Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Why did she ask him not to?
Mrs. PAINE. She felt he had overstayed his welcome the previous weekend which had been 3 days, 9th, 10th, and 11th because he was off Veterans Day,. the 11th of November, and she felt it would be simpler and more comfortable if he didn't come out.
Mr. JENNER. Had you had a discussion with her prior to that time on that subject?
Mrs. PAINE. I had not suggested that to her.
Mr. JENNER. Did you overhear her tell him that?
Mrs. PAINE. I did tell her I was planning a birthday party for my little girl, and I heard her tell Lee not to come out because I was having a birthday party. At some point in this same telephone conversation likely I told him he did not need to have a car but to go himself to the driver training station.
Mr. JENNER. You have described that event for us heretofore this afternoon.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Or this morning, I have forgotten which.
Mr. McCLOY. May I interrupt here. I wonder whether or not you would want to take a rest now. We have been pretty arduous and let's take a little recess now.
(Short recess.)
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Reporter, would you read the last interchange or question and answer?
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(The reporter read the question and answer.)
Mr. JENNER. Would you fix as best you can for us, the date or time that you first saw the wrapped blanket after you had returned to Irving? How long after that event did you see it to the best of your recollection?
Mrs. PAINE. I have said it was the latter part of October. I don't think I can fix it more exactly.
Mr. JENNER. That would be almost or would be over a month afterwards? You returned on September 24?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall thinking, that is, that anything like that marks it as being particular noticeable. So that I am judging that I recall seeing it in October, somewhere towards the end.
Mr. JENNER. Had anything occurred at that time that now leads you to fix it at the latter part of October?
Mrs. PAINE. No; there is no way that I have to fix it.
Mr. JENNER. Did you stumble over it or something?
Mr. McCLOY. Could it have been as early as October 4 or the 7th when you first got the call from him when he first returned to Dallas?
Mrs. PAINE. Conceivably, but I don't remember.
Mr. DULLES. Then you saw it on another occasion, how many days later was that?
Mrs. PAINE. I can't fix it that near.
Mr. DULLES. It was several days later, was it, the time when it seemed to have been moved from position “X” to position “XX”?
Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes; that was later.
Mr. McCLOY Can you place it at all, can you place your recollection at all as having seen it in relation to the assassination? The date of the assassination? Was it 2 weeks before, 3 weeks before?
Mrs. PAINE. I have inquired of myself for some weeks, was such a package in my station wagon when I arrived from New Orleans, and I cannot recall it, but I cannot be at all certain that there wasn't. I certainly didn't unload it. I never lifted such a package.
Mr. JENNER. Only you and Marina took things out of your station wagon at that time?
Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And you did not----
Mrs. PAINE. So I think I would have seen it.
Mr. DULLES. In your earlier testimony I think in reply to a question, you indicated that you and Marina had only talked about this after the assassination that afternoon.
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. DULLES. If it is not out of order, I would like to get that into the testimony maybe at this date what took place between them at that time.
Mr. JENNER. On the 22d?
Mr. DULLES. Yes.
Mr. McCLOY. I think it is best to leave it at the 22d.
Mr. JENNER. I was going to take her chronologically.
Mr. DULLES. Just so you recall that.
Mr. McCLOY. But you can't recall having gone into the garage for any purpose and having stepped over this thing or around it at any time that you would associate with his return from New Orleans and Houston, if he went to Houston?
Mrs. PAINE. My best recollection is that it was after, it was in October, therefore.
Mr. McCLOY. But later than the 7th of October, you think?
Mrs. PAINE. Later than that, yes. That is the best I can do.
Mr. McCLOY. But well before the day of November 22?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. I think I have oriented myself without having the reporter read and may I proceed, Mr. Chairman?
Mr. McCLOY. Surely.
Mr. JENNER. We have now reached the weekend of the 15th, 16th, and 17th, which is the weekend that Lee Harvey Oswald did not return to your home.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
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Mr. JENNER. You had just finished relating that Marina had told him not to come that particular
weekend?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, was there an occasion during the course of that weekend when a phone call was made to Lee Harvey Oswald. I direct your attention particularly to Sunday evening, the 17th of November.
Mrs. PAINE. Looking back on it, I thought that there was a call made to him by me on Monday the 18th, but I may be wrong about when it was made.
Mr. JENNER. Did Marina call him this Sunday evening, November 17?
Mrs. PAINE. No. There was only one call made at any one time to him, to my knowledge.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall an occasion when a call was made to him and you girls were unable to reach him when that call was made?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. I will describe the call, and there is a dispute over what night it was.
Mr. JENNER. I would like your best recollection, first as to when it occurred. Was it during the weekend that he did not return to your home, the weekend immediately preceding the assassination day? Do you recall that Marina was lonesome and she wished you to make a call to Lee and you did so at her request?
Mrs. PAINE. I recall certainly we had talked with Lee, on the telephone already that weekend because he called to say that he had been to attempt to get a driver's license permit.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. PAINE. Whether he called that Saturday or whether he had called Sunday, I am not certain. Indeed, I am not certain but what he had called the very day, had already called and talked with Marina the very day that I then, at her request, tried to reach him at the number he had given. me, with his number in my telephone book.
Junie was fooling with the telephone dial, and Marina said, "Let's call papa" and asked me--
Mr. JENNER. Was this at night?
Mrs. PAINE. It was early evening, still light.
Mr. JENNER. Was it on a weekend?
Mrs. PAINE. I would have said it was Monday but I am not certain of that.
Mr. JENNER. Was it
Mrs. PAINE. That is my best recollection, is that it was Monday.
Mr. JENNER. All we want is your best recollection. If it was a Monday, was it the Monday following the weekend that he did not come?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, certainly it was.
Mr. JENNER. I see. That is if it was a Monday, it was the Monday preceding November 22?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. DULLES. Could I ask one question?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. DULLES. Was there any evidence that the hint you gave, or that was given, to Lee Harvey not to come over this weekend caused him any annoyance? Was he put out by this, and did he indicate it?
Mrs. PAINE. I made no such request of him. Marina talked with him on the phone.
Mr. DULLES. I realize that.
Mrs. PAINE. And she made no mention of any irritation. Of course, I didn't hear what he said in response to her asking him not to come.
Mr. DULLES. And it didn't come out in any of these subsequent telephone messages which we are now discussing?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I think I probably talked with him during that same telephone conversation to say that he could go without a car, and there was no irritation I noticed.
Mr. DULLES. Thank you.
Mr. JENNER. But it is your definite recollection that his failure to come on the weekend preceding the assassination was not at his doing but at the request of Marina, under the circumstances you have related?
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Mrs. PAINE. I am absolutely clear about that.
Mr. JENNER. You are. absolutely clear about that. All right. Now, state, you began to state the circumstances of the telephone call. Would you in your own words and your own chronology proceed with that, please?
Mrs. PAINE. Marina had said, "Let's call papa," in Russian and asked me to dial the number for her, knowing that I had a number that he had given us. I then dialed the number--
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, did you dial the first or the second number?
Mrs. PAINE. The second number.
Mr. JENNER. And that number is?
Mrs. PAINE. WH 3-8993.
Mr. JENNER. When you dialed the number did someone answer?
Mrs. PAINE. Someone answered and I said, "Is Lee Oswald there?" And the person replied, "There is no Lee Oswald here," or something to that effect.
Mr. JENNER. Would it refresh your recollection if he said, "There is nobody by that name here"?
Mrs. PAINE. Or it may have been "nobody by that name" or "I don't know Lee Oswald." It could have been any of these.
Mr. JENNER. We want your best recollection.
Mrs. PAINE. My best recollection is that he repeated the name.
Mr. JENNER. He repeated the name?
Mrs. PAINE. But that is not a certain recollection.
Mr. JENNER. I take it then from the use of the pronoun that the person who answered was a man?
Mrs. PAINE. Was a man.
Mr. JENNER. And if you will just sit back and relax a little. I would like to have you restate, if you now will, in your own words, what occurred? You dialed the telephone, someone answered, a male voice?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. What did he say and what did you say?
Mrs. PAINE. I said, "Is Lee Oswald there." He said, "There is no Lee Oswald living here." As best as I can recall. This is the substance of what he said. I said, "Is this a rooming house." He said "Yes." I said, "Is this WH 3-8993?" And he said "Yes." I thanked him and hung up.
Mr. JENNER. When you hung up then what did you next do or say?
Mrs. PAINE. I said to Marina, "They don't know of a Lee Oswald at that number."
Mr. JENNER. What did she say?
Mrs. PAINE. She didn't say anything.
Mr. JENNER. Just said nothing?
Mrs. PAINE. She looked surprised.
Mr. JENNER. Did she evidence any surprise?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; she did, she looked surprised.
Mr. DULLES. You are quite sure you used the first name "Lee," did you, you did not say just "Mr. Oswald," or something of that kind?
Mrs. PAINE. I would not say "Mr. Oswald." It is contrary to Quaker practice, and I don't normally do it that way.
Mr. JENNER. Contrary to Quaker practice?
Mrs. PAINE. They seldom use "Mister."
Mr. JENNER. I see.
Mr. DULLES. And you wouldn't have said "Harvey Oswald," would you?
Mrs. PAINE. I knew he had a middle name but only because I filled out forms in Parkland Hospital. It was never used with him.
Mr. JENNER. You do recall definitely that you asked for Lee Oswald?
Mrs. PAINE. I cannot be that definite. But I believe I asked for him. Oh, yes; I recall definitely what I asked. I cannot be definite about the man's reply, whether he included the full name in his reply.
Mr. JENNER. But you did?
Mrs. PAINE. I asked for the full name, "Is Lee Oswald there."
Mr. JENNER. Did you report this incident to the FBI?
Mrs. PAINE. I had no occasion to see them, and I did not think it important enough to call them after that until the 23d of November.
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Mr. JENNER. Perhaps I may well have deferred that question until after I asked you the next.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did any event occur the following day with respect to this telephone call?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; Lee called--
Mr. JENNER. What was it?
Mrs. PAINE. Lee called at the house and asked for Marina. I was in the kitchen where the phone is while Marina talked with him, she clearly was upset, and angry, and when she hung up--
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, did you overhear this conversation?
Mrs. PAINE. I overheard the conversation but I can't tell you specific content.
Mr. JENNER. Please, Mrs. Paine, would you do your very best to recall what was said?
Mrs. PAINE. I can tell you what she said to me which was immediately after, which is what I definitely recall.
Mr. JENNER. Thank you.
Mrs. PAINE. She said immediately he didn't like her trying to reach him at the phone in his room at Dallas yesterday. That he was angry with her for having tried to reach him. That he said he was using a different name, and she said, "This isn't the first time I felt 22 fires," a Russian expression.
Mr. JENNER. This is something she said?
Mrs. PAINE. She said this. This is not the first time, but it was the first time she had mentioned it to me.
Mr. JENNER. Give her exact words to me again.
Mrs. PAINE. When she felt 22 fires.
Mr. JENNER. That is the expression she used?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you understand what she meant or, if not, did you ask for an explanation?
Mrs. PAINE. I did not ask for an explanation. I judged she meant, she disagreed with his using a different name, but didn't feel like, empowered to make him do otherwise or even perhaps ask to as a wife.
Mr. DULLES. How long a conversation was this. Was it---
Mrs. PAINE. Fairly short.
Mr. DULLES. Fairly short.
Mrs. PAINE. That is my recollection.
Representative FORD. What day of the month and what day of the week was this?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, reconstructing it, I thought they succeeded each other, the original call to the WH number on Monday and his call back on Tuesday.
Representative FORD. When he called back it was late in the afternoon or early evening,?
Mrs. PAINE. It was the normal time for him to call back, early evening, around 5:30.
Mr. JENNER. You have a definite impression she was angry when she hung up?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Was she abrupt in her hanging up. Did she hang up on him?
Mrs. PAINE. No; she was angry, she was upset.
Mrs JENNER. And her explanation of her being upset was that he used the assumed name?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, she didn't explain it as such, but she said he had used it.
Mr. JENNER. He was angry with her because you had made the call?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Or she had made it through you?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did any further discussion take place between you and Marina on that subject?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. The following day he did not call at the usual time.
Mr. JENNER. That would be the following day, the 20th?
Mrs. PAINE. I believe that was a Wednesday and that is how I slipped a day.
Mr. JENNER. He didn't call at all on the succeeding day?
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Mrs. PAINE. He didn't call at all, and she said to me as the time for normally calling passed, "He thinks he is punishing me."
Mr. JENNER. For what?
Mrs. PAINE. For having been a bad wife, I would judge, for having done something he didn't want her to do, the objection.
Mr. JENNER. To wit, the telephone call about which you have told us?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you and Marina go through a normal day that day, or was there any other subject of discussion with respect to Lee Oswald on that day?
Mrs. PAINE. Nothing I would specifically recall; no.
Mr. JENNER. This was the 20th of November, a Wednesday?
Mrs. PAINE. To the best of my recollection.
Mr. JENNER. Let's proceed with the 21st. Did anything occur on the 21st with respect to Lee Harvey Oswald, that is a Thursday?
Mrs. PAINE. I arrived home from grocery shopping around 5:30, and he was on the front lawn. I was surprised to see him.
Mr. JENNER. You had no advance notice?
Mrs. PAINE. I had no advance notice and he had never before come without asking whether he could.
Mr. JENNER. Never before had he come to your home in that form without asking your permission to come?
Mrs. PAINE. Without asking permission; that is right.
Mr. JENNER. And he was out on the lawn as you drove up, on your lawn?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right. Playing with June and talking with Marina, who was also out on the lawn.
Mr. JENNER. And you were, of course, surprised to see him?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mrs. JENNER. Did you park your car in the driveway as usual?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you walk over to speak with him?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, got out, very likely picked some groceries out of the car and he very likely picked some up too, and this is I judge what may have happened.
Mr. JENNER. Tell the Commission what was said between you and Lee Oswald?
Mrs. PAINE. Between me and Lee Oswald?
Mr. JENNER. Yes; on that occasion.
Mrs. PAINE. That is not what I recall. I recall talking with Marina on the side.
Mr. JENNER. First. Didn't you greet him?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I greeted him.
Mr. JENNER. And then what did you do, walk in the house?
Mrs. PAINE. As we were walking in the house, and he must have preceded because Marina and I spoke in private to one another, she apologized.
Mr. JENNER. Was Marina out on the lawn also?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, sir. She apologized for his having come without permission and I said that was all right, and we said either then or later--I recall exchanging our opinion that this was a way of making up the quarrel or as close as he could come to an apology for the fight on the telephone, that his coming related to that, rather than anything else.
Mr. JENNER. That was her reaction to his showing up uninvited and unexpectedly on that particular afternoon, was it?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, it was rather my own, too.
Mr. JENNER. And it was your own?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And because of this incident of the telephone call and your not being able to reach him, and the subsequent talk between Lee and Marina in which there had been some anger expressed, you girls reached the conclusion the afternoon of November 21 that he was home just to see if he could make up with Marina?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Do I fairly state it?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
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Mr. JENNER. What did you do that evening? Did you have occasion to note what he did?
Mrs. PAINE. We had dinner as usual, and then I sort of bathed my children, putting them to bed and reading them a story, which put me in one part of the house. When that was done I realized he had already gone to bed, this being now about 9 o'clock. I went out to the garage to paint some children's blocks, and worked in the garage for half an hour or so. I noticed when I went out that the light was on.
Mr. JENNER. The light was on in the garage?
Mrs. PAINE. The light was on in the garage.
Mr. JENNER. Was this unusual?
Mrs. PAINE. Oh, it was unusual for it to be on; yes. I realized that I felt Lee, since Marina had also been busy with her children, had gone out to the garage, perhaps worked out there or gotten something. Most of their clothing was still out there, all of their winter things. They were getting things out from time to time, warmer things for the cold weather, so it was not at all remarkable that he went to the garage, but I thought it careless of him to have left the light on. I finished my work and then turned off the light and left the garage.
Mr. JENNER. Have you completed that now?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You stated that he was in the garage, how did you know he was in the garage?
Mr. McCLOY. She didn't state that.
Mrs. PAINE. I didn't state it absolutely. I guessed it was he rather than she. She was busy with the children and the light had been on and I know I didn't leave the light on.
Mr. JENNER. Then, I would ask you directly, did you see him in the garage at anytime from the time you first saw him on the lawn until he retired for the night?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Until you retired for the night?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Was he out on the lawn after dinner or supper?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't believe so.
Mr. JENNER. Did you hear any activity out in the garage on that evening?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I did not.
Mr. JENNER. Any persons moving about?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. The only thing that arrested your attention was the fact that you discovered the light on in the garage?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Before you retired?
Representative FORD. You discovered that when you went out to work there?
Mrs. PAINE. When I went out to work there.
Mr. McCLOY. When you went out there, did you notice the blanket?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall specifically seeing the blanket. I certainly recall on the afternoon of the 22d where it had been.
Mr. DULLES. Was there any evidence of any quarreling or any harsh words between Lee Harvey and Marina that evening that you know of?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Was there a coolness between them?
Mrs. PAINE. He went to bed very early, she stayed up and talked with me some, but there was no coolness that I noticed. He was quite friendly on the lawn as we--
Mr. JENNER. I mean coolness between himself and---between Lee and Marina.
Mrs. PAINE. I didn't notice any such coolness. Rather, they seemed warm, like a couple making up a small spat, I should interject one thing here, too, that I recall as I entered the house and Lee had just come in, I said to him, "Our President is coming to town."
And he said, "Ah, yes," and walked on into the kitchen, which was a common
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reply from him on anything. I was just excited about this happening, and there was his response. Nothing more was said about it.
Mr. DULLES. I didn't quite catch his answer.
Mrs. PAINE. "Ah, yes," a very common answer.
Mr. JENNER. He gave no more than that laconic answer?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Had there been any discussion between you and Marina that the President was coming into town the next day?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did she say anything on that subject in the presence of Lee that evening?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall anything of that sort.
Mr. JENNER. What time did you have dinner that evening?
Mrs. PAINE. 6 or 6:30, I would guess.
Mr. JENNER. And calling on your recollection, Mrs. Paine, following dinner do you remember any occasion that evening when Lee was out of the house and you didn't see him around the house, and you were conscious of the fact he was not in the house?
Mrs. PAINE. I was not at anytime of the opinion that he was out of the house, conscious of it.
Mr. JENNER. You have no recollection of his being out of the house anytime that evening?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. DULLES. Did he do any reading that evening--books, papers, anything?
Mrs. PAINE. Not to my recollection.
Mr. JENNER. What were you doing that evening?
Mrs. PAINE. I have tried already to describe that after dinner, and probably after some dishes were done.
Mr. JENNER. Who did the dishes?
Mrs. PAINE. Very likely Marina, it depended on who made the meal. I normally cooked the meal and then she did the dishes or we reversed occasionally. But I have tried to say I was very likely involved in the back bedroom and in the bathroom giving the children a bath, getting them in their pajamas and reading a story for as much as an hour.
Mr. JENNER. That would take as much as an hour?
Mrs. PAINE. That takes as much as an hour.
Mr. JENNER. By this time we are up to approximately 7:30 or 8 o'clock, are we?
Mrs. PAINE. Oh no; we are up to nearly 9 o'clock by now. We eat from 6:30 to after 7, do some dishes, brings it up toward 8, and then put the children to bed.
Mr. JENNER. When you had had your children put to bed and came out of their room, was Lee, had he then by that time retired?
Mrs. PAINE. That is my recollection.
Mr. DULLES. Did you have any words with Marina about the light in the garage? Was that a subject of conversation between you?
Mrs. PAINE. No; we didn't discuss it.
Mr. DULLES. You didn't mention it to her?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I didn't discuss it.
Representative FORD. Did he ever help in the kitchen at all, in any way whatsoever?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, I have said he once did dishes in New Orleans, but that is about all I recall that he did.
Representative FORD. But in Dallas, in your home, he never volunteered?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. McCLOY. Marina did help around the house?
Mrs. PAINE. She helped a great deal.
Mr. McCLOY. She was a good helper?
Mrs. PAINE. She is a hard worker.
Mr. JENNER. Tell us, the time you came out of the bedroom and put your children to bed when you noticed the light in the garage; fix as well as you can the time of evening.
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Mrs. PAINE. I think it was about 9 o'clock.
Mr. JENNER. That is when you noticed the light in the garage, around 9 o'clock after you put your children to bed, and at that time Lee was already retired?
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Marina was still up?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. How long did she remain up?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall that evening from that point on much like any others, with the two of us up, we probably folded some diapers, laundry. Some evening close to that time, either that evening or the one before, we discussed plans for Christmas.
Mr. JENNER. You and Marina?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. But it was probably the evening before. I was thinking about making a playhouse for the children.
Mr. JENNER. Would you describe Lee's attire when you. first saw him on the lawn when you returned that evening?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall it.
Mr. JENNER. You have no recollection of that? Did he bring-do you know whether he brought anything with him in the way of paper or wrapper or luggage or this sticky tape, anything of that nature?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall seeing anything of that nature.
Mr. JENNER. Did you see any paper, wrapping paper, of the character that you have identified around your home that evening?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. McCLOY. Can't you recall a little more clearly how he generally was dressed? Did he have a coat on such as I have got on now, or did he have----
Mrs. PAINE. I never saw him in a suit jacket.
Mr. McCLOY. Suit jacket? What was his normal outer wear apparel?
Mrs. PAINE. His normal attire was T-shirt, cotton slacks, sometimes the T-shirt covered by a shirt, flannel or cotton shirt.
Mr. McCLOY. Do you recall whether he had that type of shirt over his T-shirt that night?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall.
Mr. McCLOY. You don't recall?
Mr. JENNER. Did -he have any kind of a shirt other than a T-shirt on him when you saw him?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't really remember.
Mr. JENNER. I wonder, Mr. Chairman, if despite the fact I haven't reached the next day, if we might excuse Mrs. Paine? She did tell me she had an appointment at 5:30 this evening, and I would like to have her think over more so she can be refreshed in the morning as to this particular evening. And, Mrs. Paine, I would have you trace the first thing in the morning as best as you can recall Lee Harvey Oswald's movements that evening and where he was, to the best that you are able to recall. Would you try to do that for us?
Mrs. PAINE. I think I probably have done the best I can, but I will do it again if you like.
Mr. JENNER. May we have permission to adjourn, Mr. Chairman?
Mr. McCLOY. Very well.
Mr. DULLES. Could I ask just one question? With regard to this sketch of the house, I was interested to know where you would see the light in the garage. Was it from out here?
Mrs. PAINE. This is a doorway into the garage from the kitchen area.
Mr. DULLES. And you saw that light from the kitchen area?
Mrs. PAINE. I think I was probably on my way to the garage anyway, opened the door, there was the light on.
Mr. DULLES. I see. There are no windows or anything. The door was closed and the light would not be visible if you hadn't gone into it?
Mrs. PAINE. It would be visible if it was dark in here.
Mr. DULLES. I understand. Through the door.
Representative FORD. And you spent about a half hour in the garage painting some blocks?
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Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Representative FORD. What part of the garage--
Mrs. PAINE. Close to the doorway here, the entrance, this entrance.
Representative FORD. The entrance going into the--
Mrs. PAINE. The doorway between the garage and the kitchen-dining area. Right here.
Representative FORD. You didn't move around the garage?
Mrs. PAINE. I moved around enough to get some shellac and brush and make a place, a block is this big, to paint.
Representative FORD. Where do you recollect, if you do, the blanket was at this time?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recollect. It was the next day--
Representative FORD. It was the forepart of the garage on the left-hand side?
Mrs. PAINE. Beyond.
Mr. McCLOY. Does anyone have any further questions?
Mr. JENNER. No questions, Mr. Chairman.
Representative Ford has directed the attention of the witness to the document which is now Exhibit No. 430, and when we reconvene in the morning I will qualify the exhibit.
Mr. McCLOY. Is that all?
We will reconvene at 9 a.m., tomorrow.
(Whereupon, at 5:30 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)
Friday, March 20, 1964
TESTIMONY OF RUTH HYDE PAINE RESUMED
The President's Commission met at 9:05 a.m. on Friday, March 20, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C.
Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Senator John Sherman Cooper, Representative Gerald R. Ford, and John J. McCloy, members.
Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel; and Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel.
Senator COOPER. Mrs. Paine, you, I think, yesterday affirmed, made affirmation as to the truthfulness of your testimony?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, I did.
Senator COOPER. You are still under that affirmation?
Mrs. PAINE. I understand that I am under that affirmation.
Mr. JENNER. May I proceed?
Thank you. Mrs. Paine, just to put you at ease this morning, Mr. Chairman, may I qualify some documents?
The CHAIRMAN. Good morning, gentlemen and ladies. How are you, Mrs. Paine? I am glad to see you this morning.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, I show you Commission Exhibit No. 425 which you produced and which you testified was the original of a letter of October 14, 1963, to your mother, part of which you read at large in the record. Is that document in your handwriting entirely?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is.
Mr. JENNER. You testified it is a letter from you to your mother?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Did you dispatch the letter?
Mrs. PAINE. I did.
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Mr. JENNER. In view of that fact would you explain for the record how you came into possession of the letter since you sent it to your mother?
Mrs. PAINE. She gave it to me a few days ago.
Mr. JENNER. Is the document now in the same condition it was when you mailed it to your mother?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is. You have the first page of two. The other page not being relative to this case.
Mr. JENNER. In other words, that there be no question about it, do you have the other page?
Mrs. PAINE. I have the other page.
Mr. JENNER. May I have it?
Mrs. PAINE. The other page, of course, contains my signature.
Mr. JENNER. Yes. May the record be amended to show that Commission Exhibit No. ----
Mrs. PAINE. I'd rather not have that part of it----
Mr. JENNER. It is not going into the record, Mrs. Paine. Just be patient.
Commission Exhibit 425 consists of two pages, that is two sheets. The pages are numbered from one through four. Would you look at the page numbered There is a signature appearing at the bottom of it. Is that your signature?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, may I postpone the offer of this document in evidence until I do read the second page, which the witness has now produced. You see, Mrs. Paine, that it may be important to the Commission to have the entire letter which would indicate the context in which the statements that are relevant were made.
You testified yesterday with regard to the draft of what appeared to be a letter that Mr. Oswald, Lee Harvey Oswald, was to send. It was thought he might send it to someone. I hand you a picture of a letter in longhand which has been identified as Commission Exhibit 103. Would you look at that please?
Do you recognize that handwriting?
Mrs. PAINE. No. This is the only time I saw--this is the only handwriting of his I have seen.
Mr. JENNER. You can't identify the document as such, that is, are you familiar enough with his handwriting----
Mrs. PAINE. To know that this is his handwriting?
Mr. JENNER. To identify whether that is or is not his handwriting.
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Have you ever seen that Document before?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I have.
Mr. JENNER. When did you first see it?
Mrs. PAINE. I first saw that on Saturday, the 9th of November. I don't believe I looked to see what it said until the morning of the 10th.
Mr. JENNER. I see. Now, do you recognize it, however, as a picture of the document that you did see on the 9th of November, or did you say 10th?
Mrs. PAINE. I'll say 10th, yes; it is that document.
Senator COOPER. What is the answer?
Mrs. PAINE. It is that document,
Mr. JENNER. And I take it from your testimony that after you had seen the original of this document, this document happens to be a photo, you saw a typed transcript of this document or substantially this document?
Mrs. PAINE. I never saw a typed transcript.
Mr. JENNER. You did not?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, you testified yesterday that Lee Harvey Oswald asked you if he could use your typewriter?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. And he did proceed to use the typewriter to type a letter or at least some document?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And that you saw a document folded in half and one portion of it arrested your attention?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; that is correct.
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Mr. JENNER. Was the document that arrested your attention the typed document or was it the document that is before you?
Mrs. PAINE. I never saw the typed document. It was the document that is before me, which I take to be a rough draft of what he typed.
Mr. JENNER. And you said you made a duplicate of the document. Did you make a duplicate in longhand or on your typewriter?
Mrs. PAINE. I made a duplicate in longhand.
Mr. JENNER. But you do have a present recollection that this, Commission Exhibit No. 103 for identification, is the document which you saw in your home on your desk secretary?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right,
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, I offer in evidence as Commission Exhibit No. 103 the document---oh, it is already in evidence. I withdraw that offer.
Senator COOPER. It is in evidence.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Redlich informs me, Mr. Chairman, that the document has already been admitted in evidence.
Now, would you follow me as I go through these? There has been marked as Commission's Exhibit 430, which is the mark at the moment for identification, what purports to be a floor plan outline of the Paine home at 2515 Fifth Street, Irving, Tex., and the witness made reference to that yesterday close to the close of her testimony yesterday afternoon. Directing your attention to that exhibit, is that an accurate floor plan outline of your home at 2515 Fifth Street, Irving, Tex.?
Mrs. PAINE. It is an approximately accurate floor plan.
Mr. JENNER. And is it properly entitled, that is, are the rooms and sections of the home properly entitled?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; they are.
Mr. JENNER. And does it accurately reflect the door openings, the hallways in your home and the garage?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is perfectly accurate.
Mr. JENNER. I think one thing only needs some. explanation. In the upper left-hand corner of the floor plan outline, there is a square space which has no lettering to identify that space. It is the area immediately to the left of the of what is designated as kitchen-dining area.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. That space is all one room with that which is designated kitchen-dining area. That is one large room.
Mr. JENNER. I see. So that even though on the floor plan outline the words "kitchen-dining area" appear in the right half of that space, that lettering and wording is to apply to all the space?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. And the driveway about which you testified is that portion of the ground outline which has the circle with the figure "8" and an arrow, is that right?
Mrs. PAINE. That is the driveway.
Mr. JENNER. And the driveway is where the car was parked because the garage always had too many things in it to get your car in?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Referring to Commission Exhibit No. 431 for identification, is that a front view of your home?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is.
Mr. JENNER. Were you present when the picture was taken?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I was.
Mr. JENNER. Commission Exhibit 432, is that a rear view of your home?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is.
Mr. JENNER. Were you present when that was taken?
Mrs. PAINE. Probably. I don't recall.
Mr. JENNER. But that is an accurate depiction?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Of the rear of your home?
Mrs. PAINE. It is certainly accurate.
Mr. JENNER. And showing some of your yard. The next Exhibit 433, is that view of the east side of your home?
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Mrs. PAINE. East and north; yes.
Mr. JENNER. And were you present when that was taken?
Mrs. PAINE. I wouldn't know.
Mr. JENNER. But it is an accurate depiction of that area of your home?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Commission Exhibit 434, is that a view of the west side of your home?
Mrs. PAINE. West and north.
Mr. JENNER. Were you present when that was taken?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall.
Mr. JENNER. Despite that, is it accurate?
Mrs. PAINE. It is perfectly accurate.
Mr. JENNER. Now, is Commission Exhibit 435 a view inside your home looking through the door leading to the garage from your kitchen?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is.
Mr. JENNER. And were you present when that was taken?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I was
Mr. JENNER. And is it accurate?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is.
Mr. JENNER. Commission Exhibit 436, is that a picture of the doorway area leading to the backyard of your home?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is.
Mr. JENNER. Were you present when that was taken?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I was.
Mr. JENNER. Is it accurate?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Commission Exhibit 437, is that the kitchen area in your home?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is.
Mr. JENNER. Now, were you present when that was taken?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I was.
Mr. JENNER. And is it accurate?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Returning now to the floor plan exhibit, Commission Exhibit 430, is Commission Exhibit 437, which is the kitchen area in your home, that portion of Commission Exhibit 430 which is lettered "kitchen-dining area."
Mrs. PAINE. It is a picture of that portion.
Mr. JENNER. Of that portion, rather than the portion to the left which is unlettered?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. The garage interior we identified yesterday. By the way, have you ever been in the Randle home?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I have.
Mr. JENNER. Have you been there often enough to identify a floor plan and pictures of the Randle home?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. I have been there perhaps once or twice.
Mr. McCLOY. Do you intend to call Mrs. Randle?
Mr. JENNER. Unfortunately Mrs. Randle has already testified and Mr. Ball when he questioned her did not have this exhibit. It wasn't in existence.
I show you a page marked Commission Exhibit No. 441 entitled "Randle Home, 2439 West Fifth Street, Irving, Tex.," purporting to be a floor plan outline of the Randle home. You have been in the Randle home?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I have.
Mr. JENNER. On several occasions?
Mrs. PAINE. Two or three; yes.
Mr. JENNER. And are you familiar with the general area of the Randle home?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Surrounding the Randle home?
Mrs. PAINE. Indeed; I am.
Mr. JENNER. And looking at Commission Exhibit 441, is that an accurate floor plan outline and general community outline of the Randle home?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I would say it is.
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Mr. JENNER. I show you Commission Exhibit 442. Is that an accurate and true and correct photograph showing the corner view of the Randle home?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is.
Mr. JENNER. Exhibit 443, is that an accurate photograph of a portion of the
kitchen portion, the front of the kitchen window of the Randle home?
Mrs. PAINE. I believe so.
Mr. JENNER. Does your recollection serve you----
Mrs. PAINE. I am trying to see if I know which is west and north there and I am not certain.
Mr. JENNER. Let us return to the floor plan.
Mrs. PAINE. This would be, yes, that is what I thought. This is looking then west.
Mr. JENNER. You have now oriented yourself. And is it an accurate picture of the front of the kitchen?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Senator COOPER. Which exhibit are you referring to now?
Mr. JENNER. The front of the Randle home No. 443. The next number, is that an accurate photograph of the area of the Randle home showing a view from the field from the Randle's kitchen window?
Mrs. PAINE. That is accurate.
Mr. JENNER. Across the street?
Mrs. PAINE. Correct.
Mr. JENNER. Commission Exhibit 445, is that an accurate photograph of the kitchen of the Randle home looking at the direction of the carport from the Randle home?
Mrs. PAINE. That is an accurate picture showing the door opening to the carport; yes.
Mr. JENNER. And the kitchen portion of the Randle home facing on the carport?
Mrs. PAINE. Correct.
Mr. JENNER. Have you ever been in the carport area of the Randle home?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I have.
Mr. JENNER. And is Commission Exhibit 446 a view of a portion of the carport area of the Randle home?
Mrs. PAINE. It looks like it.
Mr. JENNER. Now 447 is a photograph taken from the street looking toward the Randle home, is that right?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And it is the west side of the Randle house?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Showing that carport area?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And it is accurate, isn't it?
Mrs. PAINE. It is accurate.
Mr. JENNER. Commission Exhibit 438, is that an accurate photograph of the area of Irving Street showing not only the Randle house but also your home?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; that is accurate.
Mr. JENNER. And is Commission Exhibit 448--
Senator COOPER. What was the number of the photograph which you just referred to?
Mr. JENNER. 438. 438 is view looking northeast showing the Paine home at the left and the Randle home at the far right. Directing your attention to Commission Exhibit 448, is that an accurate photograph showing a view of the Randle home looking West Fifth Street?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Is Commission Exhibit 438 an accurate photograph showing a view looking west along Fifth Street to your home?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is.
Mr. JENNER. And is the arrow that appears on that photograph--does that point to your home?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Is Commission Exhibit No. 450, which I now show you, an accurate
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photograph of the intersection of Westbrook Drive and West Fifth Street viewed from immediately outside the Randle kitchen window?
Mrs. PAINE. It looks to be exactly that--
Mr. JENNER. I now show you Commission Exhibit No. 440 entitled "Paine and Randle homes, Irving, Tex." which purports to be, and I believe is, a scale drawing of the area in Irving, Tex., along West Fifth Street and Westbrook Drive, in which your home at 2515 West Fifth Street is shown in outline, and the location and form of the Randle home down the street and on the corner is likewise shown.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Is that accurate?
Mrs. PAINE. That is accurate.
Senator COOPER. Are you going to make part of the record these exhibits which she has identified?
Mr. JENNER. Yes; I am about to offer these and I would ask Mr. Redlich if he would assemble the exhibit numbers so I can make the offer, please.
Mrs. Paine, now that you have had a rest over night, we would like to return to the late afternoon and the evening of November 21. Did Lee Harvey Oswald come to Irving, Tex., at anytime that day?
Mrs. PAINE. He came some time shortly before 5:30 in the evening on the 21st.
Mr. JENNER. Had either you or Marina, I limit it to you first, had you had any notice or intimation whatsoever that Lee Harvey Oswald would appear on that day?
Mrs. PAINE. Absolutely none.
Mr. JENNER. And his appearance was a complete surprise to you?
Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Did anything occur during the day or during that week up to the time that you saw Lee Harvey Oswald that afternoon that impressed yon or led you to believe that Marina had any notion whatsoever that her husband would or might appear at your home on that day?
Mrs. PAINE. Nothing. I rather had the contrary impressions.
Mr. JENNER. Now, what was your first notice, what was the circumstances that brought your attention to the fact that Lee Harvey Oswald was in Irving, Tex., that afternoon.
Mrs. PAINE. I arrived home from the grocery store in my car and saw he was on the front lawn at my house.
Mr. JENNER. You had had no word whatsoever from anybody prior to that moment?
Mrs. PAINE. No word whatsoever.
Mr. JENNER. Now where was he? And we may use the exhibits we have just identified. Mr. Chairman, I offer in evidence the photographs and the floor plans and the area outlines the witness has just identified and testified about as they are Commission Exhibit Nos. 429 through 448 both inclusive, and 450 and 452.
Senator COOPER. The exhibits offered will be received in evidence.
(Commission Exhibits Nos. 429 through 448 both inclusive, and 450 and 452 were received in evidence. )
The CHAIRMAN. Senator Cooper, at this time I am obliged to leave for our all-day conference on Friday at the Supreme Court, and I may be back later in the day, but if I don't, you continue, of course.
Senator COOPER. I will this morning. If I can't be here this afternoon, whom do you want to preside?
The CHAIRMAN. Congressman Ford, would you be here this afternoon at all?
Representative FORD. Unfortunately Mr. McCloy and I have to go to a conference out of town.
The CHAIRMAN. You are both going out of town, aren't you?
Senator COOPER. I can go and come back if it is necessary.
The CHAIRMAN. I will try to be here myself. Will Mr. Dulles be here?
Mr. McCLOY. He is out of town.
The CHAIRMAN. If you should not finish, Mr. Jenner, will you phone me at the Court and I will try to suspend my own conference over there and come over.
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Senator COOPER. I will be here anyway all morning and will try to come back this afternoon.
The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much. Mrs. Paine, I want to thank you for coming and for being so patient with our long questioning.
Mrs. PAINE. I am glad to do what I can.
The CHAIRMAN. You know that it is necessary.
Mrs. PAINE. Indeed.
The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much.
Mr. JENNER. You might use the ruler, and I have set the floor plan and the area plan of your home, Mrs. Paine, Exhibit 430, on the blackboard. As you testify, it might be helpful to point to those areas. Now in which direction were you coming?
Mrs. PAINE. I was coming from the east.
Mr. JENNER. From the east?
Mrs. PAINE. Along West Fifth.
Mr. JENNER. You were going west. Your home is on the right-hand side.
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. When did you first sight, where were you when you first saw Lee in your courtyard?
Mrs. PAINE. Just past the corner of Westbrook and Fifth.
Mr. JENNER. That area is open from that point to your home; is it?
Mrs. PAINE. The area of the front yard; yes.
Mr. JENNER. Your home is well set back from the street or sidewalk?
Mrs. PAINE. Moderately set back.
Mr. JENNER. What would you judge that distance to be?
Mrs. PAINE. Two car lengths from the opening of the garage to the sidewalk.
Mr. JENNER. Now where was Lee Oswald when you first saw him?
Mrs. PAINE. He was on the grass just to the east of the driveway.
Mr. JENNER. Near the driveway just to the east, but he was out in front of your home?
Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. What did you do then? You proceeded down the street?
Mrs. PAINE. I parked my car, yes; parked my car in its usual position in the driveway.
Mr. JENNER. In your driveway?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Up close to the garage opening?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And that left you then, you were on the left side or the driving side of your automobile. You got out, did you?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Which way? Did you get out to your left or did you swing across the seat and get out at the right hand door?
Mrs. PAINE. I got out on the driver's side, on the left.
Mr. JENNER. Then what did you do? First tell us what you did. Did you go into your home directly? Did you walk around?
Mrs. PAINE. No. I greeted Lee and Marina, who were both on the front lawn.
Mr. JENNER. Was their daughter June out in front as well?
Mrs. PAINE. Their daughter June was out in front. It was warm. Lee was playing with June.
Mr. JENNER. How was he attired?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall specifically.
Mr. JENNER. You said that he normally wore a T-shirt.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Was he in a T-shirt or shirt?
Mrs. PAINE. I'd be fairly certain he didn't have a jacket on, but that whatever it was was tucked in.
Mr. JENNER. Do you remember the color of his trousers?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Now at that point you were surprised to see him?
Mrs. PAINE. I was.
Mr. JENNER. What did you say to him?
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Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall.
Mr. JENNER. But you do recall greeting him?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You don't recall that you evidenced any surprise that he was there?
Mrs. PAINE. Oh, I think I did.
Mr. JENNER. Had there ever been an occasion prior thereto that he had appeared at your home without prior notice to you and permission from you for him to appear?
Mrs. PAINE. There had been no such occasion. He had always asked permission prior to coming.
Mr. JENNER. And there never had been an exception to that up to this moment?
Mrs. PAINE. No exception.
Mr. JENNER. May we have the time again? You say it was late in the afternoon, but can you fix the time a little more?
Mrs. PAINE. It was getting on toward 5:30.
Mr. JENNER. Did you tarry and talk with Lee and Marina?
Mrs. PAINE. I remember only that Marina and I were still on the grass at the entryway to the house when she spoke of her embarrassment to me in an aside, that is to say, not in Lee's hearing, that she was sorry he hadn't called ahead and asked if that was all right. And I said "Why, that is all right."
Mr. JENNER. Nothing was said by her as to why he had come out?
Mrs. PAINE. Nothing.
Mr. JENNER. And nothing was--
Mrs. PAINE. She was clearly surprised also.
Mr. JENNER. Yes. You made no inquiry of her I take it then of any explanation made by Lee Oswald as to why he had come out unannounced and unexpectedly?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. At least not as of that moment.
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Now when you had your aside with Marina, where was Lee Oswald?
Mrs. PAINE. On the grass near the tree playing with June as closely as I can remember.
Mr. JENNER. How long did you and Marina remain in conversation at that place, position?
Mrs. PAINE. Less than a minute.
Mr. JENNER. Then what did you do?
Mrs. PAINE. I can only reconstruct it.
Mr. JENNER. That is all I am asking you to do.
Mrs. PAINE. I must have gotten groceries from the car.
Mr. JENNER. You mean reconstruct in the sense of rationalizing?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. I wish you would give me first your recollection.
Mrs. PAINE. I am certain of going into the house, and I recall standing just inside the doorway.
Mr. JENNER. Of your home?
Mrs. PAINE. Of my home.
Mr. JENNER. But inside the home?
Mrs. PAINE. But inside now.
Mr. JENNER. Which way were you facing when you were standing inside the doorway?
Mrs. PAINE. I was facing partly toward the door, toward the loud speaker. I was facing this way.
Mr. JENNER. Why were you facing outwardly?
Mrs. PAINE. I believe I turned. I was coming in. I believe I turned to speak to Lee as he came in.
Mr. JENNER. Lee followed you in the house?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And did Marina come in?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall whether she was already in or still out.
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Mr. JENNER. But you do have a recollection that Lee followed you into your home.
Mrs. PAINE. And I recall very clearly the position I was in in the room and the position he was in.
Mr. JENNER. Tell us.
Mrs. PAINE. I was turned part way toward the door. He was coming in, having just entered the door and in front of this loud speaker to which I refer.
Mr. JENNER. What was the loud speaker?
Mrs. PAINE. The loud speaker is part of the Hi-Fi set. It stands--it is a big thing.
Mr. JENNER. Did something occur at that moment?
Mrs. PAINE. And it was at that time that I said to him "Our President is coming to town. "I believe I said it in Russian, our President is coming to town in Russian.
Mr. JENNER. And you gave us his response yesterday but. you might do it again.
Mrs. PAINE. He said "Uh, yeah" and brushed on by me, walked on past.
Mr. JENNER. Did he have an attitude of indifference?
Mrs. PAINE. It was clearly both indifference and not wanting to go on and talk, because he moved away from me on into the kitchen.
Mr. JENNER. He went into your kitchen. What did you do?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall specifically.
Mr. JENNER. We are anxious to follow minute by minute, to the extent possible, all the movements of which you had any knowledge of Lee Oswald on this late afternoon and throughout the evening. Did Lee Oswald remain in your presence right at this time when you entered the house? If so, how long? You had this short conversation. Did he leave your presence then and go to some other part of your home?
Mrs. PAINE. He might have gone to some other part of the home. He didn't leave the house to my recollection.
Mr. JENNER. I didn't mean to imply that, only whether he remained in the general area in which you were in your home?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall.
Mr. JENNER. Did he pass from your sight?
Mrs. PAINE. Probably.
Mr. JENNER. Before you guess about it, give us your best recollection.
Senator COOPER. Tell what you remember.
Mr. McCLOY. Yes; just in your own words tell us what your best recollection of this afternoon was without second to second sequence.
Mrs. PAINE. Clearly just having come from the grocery store I put the bags down in the kitchen and unpacked them, put them away, started supper.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have any sense that Lee Oswald was in and about the inside of the house while you were doing this?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have a recollection that he did not go out into the yard during this period?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall. If he did, it would have been the back. It would have been unusual for him to go in the front yard.
Mr. JENNER. Now you were preparing your dinner in your kitchen, were you not?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And does the entrance to your garage is there an entrance to your garage opening from your kitchen into the garage?
Mrs. PAINE. There is an entrance to the garage from the kitchen; yes.
Mr. JENNER. And one of the exhibits we qualified this morning is a picture of that area of your home, is it not?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Your answer was yes?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. At anytime while you were preparing dinner was Lee Oswald in the garage?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
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Mr. JENNER. And you were aware of that fact, were you?
Mrs. PAINE. That is my best recollection that he was not in the garage while I was preparing dinner.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know where he was while you were preparing dinner?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall specifically.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have occasion to look into your garage area at anytime during the period you were preparing dinner?
Mrs. PAINE. Not that I recall.
Mr. JENNER. Where was Marina during the period you were preparing dinner?
Mrs. PAINE. I'd have to guess.
Senator COOPER. Just tell what you know.
Mr. JENNER. Tell what you know first.
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall specifically.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have a recollection with respect to whether she was inside the house or outside the house?
Mrs. PAINE. I recall that she was inside the house.
Mr. JENNER. And where was the child June with respect to whether she was inside or outside the house?
Mrs. PAINE. She was inside.
Mr. JENNER. Having located Marina and the Oswald daughter inside your home, does that refresh your recollection as to whether Lee was also inside the house?
Mrs. PAINE. As far as I remember, he was also inside the house.
Mr. JENNER. Was he playing with his daughter?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall.
Mr. JENNER. How long did it take you to prepare dinner?
Mrs. PAINE. Probably half an hour.
Mr. JENNER. I am unaware of the shades of evening and night in Texas. By the time you had completed dinner had night fallen or was it still light?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall.
Mr. JENNER. What time does nightfall come in Texas in November, late November?
Mrs. PAINE. I would say between 7 and 7:30.
Mr. JENNER. I shouldn't have been as broad as I was. I meant to locate it in Irving, Tex, rather than Texas generally. About 7:30?
Mrs. PAINE. Between 7 and 7:30. I don't know exactly.
Mr. JENNER. When did you sit down for dinner?
Mrs. PAINE. I suppose around 6:30.
Mr. JENNER. Is that your best recollection?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall specifically.
Mr. JENNER. Was it still light outside, natural light?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did Lee Oswald join you for dinner?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; he did.
Mrs. PAINE. And how long did dinner take?
Mrs. PAINE. Perhaps half an hour.
Mr. JENNER. Did he remain in your presence during all of the dinner period?
Mrs. PAINE. Either there or in the living room.
Mr. JENNER. At anytime during the dinner period, did Lee Oswald leave your home?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. You have a firm recollection of that?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did Marina?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. At anytime during that period did Lee Oswald enter the garage area?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Did Marina?
Mrs. PAINE. Not to my recollection.
Mr. JENNER. Did you?
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Mrs. PAINE. The deepfreeze is in the garage. I don't recall having gone, but I go all the time for goods for the baby, for my little boy.
Mr. JENNER. And did you use anything from the deepfreeze normally, in connection with the preparation of an evening meal?
Mrs. PAINE. I could have gone out then too.
Mr. JENNER. Though you don't recall it specifically, it is possible that you went into the garage.
Mrs. PAINE. It is possible.
Mr. JENNER. Garage area.
Senator COOPER. But you don't remember?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't remember. This is something I do as habit.
Mr. JENNER. It is so much habit that you don't single it out?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. In any event, if you entered the garage, it was pursuant to a normal practice of preparing dinner and not because you were seeking to look for something out of the ordinary?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Or that your attention was arrested by something out of the ordinary?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. After the dinner hour or half hour, whatever it took, what did you do? Let's take say the 1-hour period following your dinner?
Mrs. PAINE. I was busy putting my children to bed.
Mr. JENNER. Where were you located during that period of time?
Mrs. PAINE. I normally read them a story in the bedroom which is the back bedroom on the north side.
Senator COOPER. Did you do it that evening?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Senator COOPER. Not normally but do you remember that you did it?
Mrs. PAINE. I am certain I read them a story.
Senator COOPER. What?
Mrs. PAINE. I am certain I read them a story. Whether they also had a bath that night I can't remember.
Mr. JENNER. Now being in your children's bedroom, which I take it was also your bedroom--
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. That would be the rear portion of your home at the corner?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. When you were in that room, what can you see with respect to other portions of your home?
Mrs. PAINE. The view from the bedroom door.
Mr. JENNER. Looking into what?
Mrs. PAINE. Looking west looks into the kitchen-dining area right past the doorway entrance to the garage.
Mr. JENNER. Can you see into the living room area of your home?
Mrs. PAINE. From that doorway you can; yes.
Mr. JENNER. If you stand in the doorway, I take it you can do so.
Mrs. PAINE. But sitting on the bed reading a story; no.
Mr. JENNER. But if you stood in the middle of the room and looked out that doorway from your bedroom, you would look into the kitchen area, not into the living room area?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. How long did you remain in your bedroom putting your children to bed?
Mrs. PAINE. That process can take as much as an hour and often does.
Mr. JENNER. Give us your very best recollection of how long it took this evening?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall specifically how long.
Mr. JENNER. Is it your recollection that you pursued your normal course in getting them to bed. You read a story, I take it, did you?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
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Mr. JENNER. And you undressed the children and placed them in the crib or bed and you say that normally takes approximately an hour?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you remained in the bedroom during all of that 1 hour period?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, I wouldn't be certain of that no. I also prepare a bottle which involves going to the kitchen, and heating milk. I also chase my children. They don't always just stay in the bedroom.
Mr. JENNER. Did you see Lee Harvey Oswald either in or about your home from time to time during this hour period that you were preparing your children for sleep that evening?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall specifically except that I was aware he was in the home.
Senator COOPER. How would you be aware he was in the home?
Mrs. PAINE. I would have noticed it if he had gone out the door it seems to me, out the front door. One can easily hear, and that would be an unusual thing.
Mr. JENNER. Why would it be unusual?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, he never did go out the front door in the evening.
Mr. JENNER. Once he entered your home his normal practice was to stay inside?
Mrs. PAINE. Was to turn on the television set and sit.
Mr. JENNER. Did he turn on the television set?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't believe he watched television that evening.
Mr. JENNER. Could you tell us of any awareness on your part of his presence in the home, that is you were definitely conscious that he remained inside the house?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And was not out in the yard?
Senator. COOPER. How would you know that?
Mrs. PAINE. It is a small house. You can hear if the front door or the back door opens. But I can't be absolutely certain.
Senator COOPER. Is what you are saying that you don't remember, or rather that you don't remember that the front door or the back door did open?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right. I am also saying there is very little about that evening that stood out as unusual. I have tried to say what I could think of that did stand out as unusual. I think the rest melds together with other
evenings which were similar.
Senator COOPER. I don't want to interrupt you but I think she has got to tell what she remembers that evening.
Mr. McCLOY. Yes. I think without the meticulous minute by minute, just say what it is.
Senator COOPER. If you don't remember, you don't remember.
Mrs. PAINE. I am sorry.
Mr. McCLOY. You can't break it down into sequence that far back?
Senator COOPER. Just tell what you remember.
Mr. JENNER. Go ahead and tell us, Mrs. Paine, the course of events that evening, with particular reference to what we are interested in, what Lee Oswald did and where he was during the course of that evening.
Mrs. PAINE. I have already said that after I had my children in bed, I went to the garage to work.
Mr. JENNER. Was it now nighttime?
Mrs. PAINE. It was now dark, I recall about 9 o'clock, I noticed that the light was on.
Mr. JENNER. Was the door to the garage open?
Mrs. PAINE. No; it was closed.
Mr. JENNER. It was closed. And you noticed the light on when you opened the door.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Had the light been on at anytime to your knowledge prior to that?
Mrs. PAINE. Not that evening; no.
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Mr. JENNER. When entering and leaving the garage during the course of your preparing dinner, to your recollection, was there any light on at that time?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. You didn't turn the light on at anytime up to this moment of which you speak?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Senator COOPER. Had you been in the garage that evening before the time that you found the light on?
Mrs. PAINE. If I had only in this course of habit which also included if it was dark, flipping the switch on and flipping it on.
Senator COOPER. You don't remember if you did that or not before.
Mrs. PAINE. Specifically, no.
Mr. McCLOY. She said she might have been.
Mr. JENNER. Is that a hand switch?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You must trip it. Where is the switch located, in the kitchen or in the garage.
Mrs. PAINE. The switch is in the garage.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, the witness has before her Commission Exhibit 435, which is a picture of her home, looking through the door leading to the garage from the kitchen. Is the light switch shown in that picture?
Mrs. PAINE. No; it is not.
Mr. JENNER. And why is it not shown?
Mrs. PAINE. The light switch that turns on the light in the garage is on the interior of the garage approximately through the wall from the switch you see in the picture, which lights the kitchen, or the dining area overhead light.
Mr. JENNER. And the switch that is shown in the picture, is it to the right of the doorjamb?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. And rather high?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Placed high, and on the picture it is shown as having, oh, is that a white plastic plate?
Mrs. PAINE. It is exactly.
Mr. JENNER. And the switch that lights the garage light is directly opposite on the other side of the wall inside the garage?
Mrs. PAINE. That is my recollection; yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now directing your attention to Commission Exhibit 429, that is a picture, is it not, of the garage interior of your home taken from the outlet door of the garage and looking back toward the kitchen?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Is that correct? And does that show the doorway from the garage into your kitchen?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. In other words, the opposite side of the wall, which is shown in Commission Exhibit 435?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And are you able to locate the light switch on Commission Exhibit 429 which is the garage interior exhibit? That is, can you see the switch?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I am not certain I can. This is something else.
Mr. JENNER. I point out to you the configuration which is halfway down the garage doorjamb outline.
Mrs. PAINE. Right next to the top surface of the deepfreeze.
Mr. JENNER. Yes. Is that the light switch?
Mrs. PAINE. I thought it was higher.
Senator COOPER. You know there is a light switch there, don't you?
There is a light switch there.
Mrs. PAINE. I know I don't pull the string which is there clearly in the picture.
Mr. JENNER. You step down into the garage do you, or is it at the kitchen floor level?
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Mrs. PAINE. Are you still asking?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. PAINE. No; you don't step down, perhaps 3 inches all together.
Mr. JENNER. The floor of the garage and the floor of the kitchen are at a level?
Mrs. PAINE. Approximately at a level.
Mr. JENNER. Why did you enter the garage on that occasion?
Mrs. PAINE. I was about to lacquer some children's large blocks, playing blocks.
Mr. JENNER. These are blocks that you had cut at some other time?
Mrs. PAINE. I had cut them on the saw in the garage; yes; previously.
Mr. JENNER. Proceed.
Representative FORD. Mr. Jenner, may I ask a question there?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Representative FORD. Some people have a habit of turning lights on and off again regularly. Others are a little careless about it. Would you describe your attitude in this regard?
Mrs. PAINE. I am definitely a person with the habit of turning them off.
Representative FORD. This is a trait that you have?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Representative FORD. Now, if you were to go out from the kitchen to the garage,
is it easy for you as you go out the door to turn the light on?
Mrs. PAINE. And off; yes.
Representative FORD. It is very simple for you to do so?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Representative FORD Both going out and coming in?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Representative FORD. And as you go out on your right or left?
Mrs. PAINE. It is on my left as I go out of the garage.
Representative FORD. And as you come in from the garage to the kitchen it is on your right.
Mrs. PAINE. As you come into the garage from the kitchen--
Mr. McCLOY. When you are going out to the garage, on which side is it?
Mrs. PAINE. It is on my right.
Mr. McCLOY. On your right. Coming out from the garage to the kitchen it is on your left?
Mrs. PAINE. That is what he said.
Mr. McCLOY. You said it just the opposite, I think.
Representative FORD. I thought I asked the question and she responded in the. reverse.
Mr. McCLOY. Maybe.
Representative FORD. And it surprised me a little bit. The record may show two different responses there.
Mr. JENNER. Could we recover that now?
Mrs. PAINE. The switch is on the west doorjamb of that door between the two rooms.
Mr. JENNER. Perhaps that may help, Mrs. Paine. When you are in the kitchen about to enter the garage, the doorway from the kitchen to the garage, and you are going to enter from the kitchen into the garage, where is the switch with respect to whether it is on you. r right side or your left side?
Mrs. PAINE. Just coming into the garage it is on my right side.
Mr. JENNER. That is leaving your kitchen entering the garage it is on your right side. Now when you are in the garage. and you are about to enter the kitchen, the switch then is on your left? Is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Representative FORD. That clarifies it. May I now ask in your observations of either Marina or Lee, were they the type that were conscious of turning light switches on or off? Was this an automatic reaction? Were they careless about it? What was their trait if you have any observation?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall any other time that the garage. light had been left on, and I would say certainly I saw enough of Marina to be able to state what I thought would be a trait, and she would normally turn off a light when she was done, in the room.
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Representative. FORD. She had the normal reaction of turning a light off if she left a room?
Mrs. PAINE. Her own room. Now you see most of the rooms--if she was the last one in the room she would turn it off; yes; going to bed or something like that she certainly would turn it off.
Mr. JENNER. Of course. if she was going to bed she would turn the light off. But when she was leaving the room, was it her tendency to turn off the light?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, the garage light is the only room in my house you leave not to come back to right away. The whole house is active all the time until bedtime. It is hard to answer.
Mr. JENNER. So the lights are on?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Representative FORD. Would you make any observation about Lee's tendencies or traits in this regard?
Mrs. PAINE. I can't say I have observation as to his tendencies.
Mr. JENNER. It was your habit, however, as far as you are concerned with respect to the light in the garage to turn it off when you left the garage?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. What were your habits with respect to closing the main garage door, that is the door opening onto the street?
Mrs. PAINE. That was always closed except to open just to take out the trash can.
Mr. JENNER. And though it is shown in one of the photographs as open.
Mrs. PAINE. That was done for the purpose of the photograph by the FBI.
Mr. JENNER. So that normally your garage door is down?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Was it down when you arrived?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it was.
Mr. JENNER. At your home when you were surprised to see Lee Oswald?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it certainly was.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have recollection whether anytime that evening of hearing the garage door being raised or seeing the garage door up?
Mrs. PAINE. I have no such recollection.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have a recollection that it was down at all times?
Mrs. PAINE. I wasn't in the garage.
Mr. JENNER. Well, you entered the garage did you not that evening?
Mrs. PAINE. Except then; yes, at 9 or so. It was certainly down.
Mr. JENNER. It was down then?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You say your home is small and you can hear even the front door opening. Does the raising of the garage door cause some clatter?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it does.
Mr. JENNER. And had the garage door been raised, even though you were giving attention to your children, would you have heard it?
Mrs. PAINE. If it was raised slow and carefully; no, I would not have heard it.
Mr. JENNER. But if it were raised normally?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You would have heard it. And it is your recollection that at no time that evening were you conscious of that garage door having been raised.
Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. You had reached the point at which you said you entered the garage to, did you say, lacquer some blocks which you had prepared?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. What did you notice in the garage when you entered it to lacquer those blocks?
Mrs. PAINE. The garage was as I always found it, and I went and got the lacquer from the workbench on the west side of the garage and painted the blocks on top of the deepfreeze. My motions were in the interior portion.
Mr. JENNER. That is in the area of the garage near the kitchen entrance?
Mrs. PAINE. Right.
Mr. JENNER. How long were you in the garage on that occasion?
Mrs. PAINE. About a half an hour.
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Mr. JENNER. Did you leave the garage light on while you worked in the garage?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You are definitely conscious, however, of the fact that when you entered the garage the light was on?
Mrs. PAINE. I am certain of that. I thought it quite sloppy to have left it on.
Mr. JENNER. Did you make any inquiry of Marina or of Lee Oswald as to the light having been left on?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. No comment at all?
Mrs. PAINE. It is my recollection that by the time I was ready to go to the garage to work, say 9 o'clock, Lee had already retired.
Mr. JENNER. Now we would like to know, tell us how you were definitely conscious that he had retired by that time?
Mrs. PAINE. He was in the bedroom. Traffic between the bedroom where he was and the bathroom crosses in front of the doorway, the front of the room where I was.
Senator COOPER. Did you see him in the bedroom?
Mrs. PAINE. In the bedroom?
Senator COOPER. Yes.
Mrs. PAINE. No; but I'd be----
Senator COOPER. What?
Mrs. PAINE. No; but I'd be fairly certain I saw him go to it.
Senator COOPER. You saw him go to it?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You saw him passing back and forth from the bedroom to the bathroom and he had his ablutions and then returned to the bedroom to retire, is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE. That is my best recollection.
Mr. JENNER. That is your definite consciousness?
Mrs. PAINE. All of this was so common that I made no specific note of it.
Senator COOPER. I think you have got to tell what you remember that night. If you can't remember it, you can't remember it.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. But you do remember him passing back and forth from the bedroom that he and Marina normally occupied when he was there, and she occupied when she was there, to the bathroom, and then back to the bedroom. You do have that recollection?
Mrs. PAINE. I recall specifically the feeling that he was in the room, and this grounded no doubt in his having been back and forth as you have described.
Mr. JENNER. You remained in the garage about a half hour lacquering your children's blocks.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You left the garage then, did you?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did.
Mr. JENNER. And where did you go when you left the garage?
Mrs. PAINE. To the kitchen or living room.
Mr. JENNER. Did you see anybody when you entered the kitchen or living room?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; Marina was still up.
Mr. JENNER. Did you see Lee Oswald?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Did you see Lee Oswald anytime from that moment forward until you retired for the evening?
Mrs. PAINE. I saw Lee Oswald at no time from that moment forward.
Mr. JENNER. The answer to my question is no?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Did you speak with him or he with you at anytime from that moment forward until you retired?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Were you conscious that he spoke to Marina at anytime from that moment forward until you retired that evening?
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Mrs. PAINE. I was not conscious that he spoke to Marina; no.
Mr. JENNER. Or she with him?
Mrs. PAINE. Or she with him.
Mr. JENNER. What time that evening did you retire?
Mrs. PAINE. I would guess around 11 or 11:30.
Mr. JENNER. Did Marina remain up and retire at anytime or had she retired earlier?
Mrs. PAINE. It seems to me we remained up and retired at about the same time, having folded laundry on the sofa before we retired, and talked.
Mr. JENNER. Were you looking at the television while you were doing the folding?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall. I don't think so.
Mr. JENNER. Now let us return to the garage for a moment. When you were in the garage for the half hour, did you notice the blanket wrapped package you testified about yesterday?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't specifically recall seeing it; no.
Mr. JENNER. You first weren't conscious of it?
Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. You didn't stumble over it.
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. It wasn't drawn to your attention in any fashion. Is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Now, as you and Marina sat that evening, folding the ironing, what did you discuss?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall specifically.
Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion that might serve to refresh your recollection, any discussion of the fact that Lee Oswald had come home or come to Irving in the first place on a Thursday afternoon, which is unusual, or that he had come home unannounced and without invitation, which also as you have testified was unusual? Wasn't there any discussion between you and Marina, speculation at least on your part as to why he was home?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, there was discussion. I can't recall exactly what time in the evening it took place but I recall the content of the discussion.
Mr. JENNER. You tell us about it.
Mrs. PAINE. She suggested that he was making up the quarrel that they had had because of her attempt to reach him by telephone, and I agreed, concurred with that judgment of it.
Mr. JENNER. What was the attitude that evening?
Mrs. PAINE. He was very warm and friendly.
Mr. JENNER. Was there anything unusual about his attitude and conduct that evening?
Mrs. PAINE. Nothing except he went to bed a little earlier than he normally would have on a Sunday evening before work.
Mr. JENNER. Were you conscious of the fact that he was retiring a little earlier than he normally would?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And did you speculate in your mind as to why that might be?
Mrs. PAINE. No. I knew that he would go to bed as early as 10 o'clock say on the Sunday evening before going to work the next day. This was just, still early.
Mr. JENNER. What was Marina's attitude toward him that evening? Was she reserved because of this quarrel?
Mrs. PAINE. No. I think she felt the best thing was to pass it by and not discuss it.
Mr. JENNER. That was your impression of her?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Of her conduct.
Senator COOPER. That is just your idea about it, isn't it?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, and that I saw her do exactly, that too.
Mr. JENNER. Do exactly what?
Mrs. PAINE. She didn't ask him why he had come.
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Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. You were present when Marina put a question to---
Mrs. PAINE. She did not ask him.
Mr. JENNER. Oh, she did not.
Mr. McCLOY. She did not.
Mr. JENNER. Oh, I am sorry.
Mrs. PAINE. Certainly not in my presence.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have any impression as to how long he had been at your home prior to your driving down the street and first seeing him?
Mrs. PAINE. He usually arrived from his ride with Wesley Frazier somewhere around a quarter of 5, so I guess it was a few minutes to 10 minutes.
Mr. JENNER. You arrived at your home in the neighborhood of 5:25 or 5:30.
So it is your impression that he had been at your home from 10 to 15 minutes?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I say from a few minutes to 10 minutes.
Mr. JENNER. A few minutes to 10 minutes. Did Marina say anything that evening of his having a package with him when he came to your home?
Mrs. PAINE. No; she didn't.
Mr. JENNER. No discussion of that nature occurred?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. I am going to put a general question to you. Do you have any recollection at all of Lee Oswald actually being in the garage of your home that evening?
Mrs. PAINE. I have said that I had the feeling from traffic that had preceded it that he was in the bedroom when I saw he was no longer in the rest of the house. When I saw the light was on, my distinct thought was that he had left it on. I think that was founded upon an awareness of what Marina had been doing and I suppose what he was doing.
Mr. JENNER. You say doing. You mean an awareness--
Mrs. PAINE. In other words, it was common for both Marina and Lee to go to the garage, but when I saw the light was on I was certain it was Lee that had left it on.
Mr. JENNER. Rather than Marina?
Mrs. PAINE. Rather than Marina.
Mr. JENNER. Because of her habit of turning off lights?
Mrs. PAINE. Not only that. I feel that I--memory of what she had been doing during the time that I was also putting the children to bed. She was involved with the children.
Mr. JENNER. May we possibly do this. Did you see Marina in the garage at anytime?
Mrs. PAINE. That evening?
Mr. JENNER. That evening.
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. You did not see Lee Oswald in the garage at anytime that evening?
Mrs. PAINE. Did not see him in the garage; no.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, I intend at this moment to proceed to the next day. I wondered if members of the Commission have any further questions of Mrs. Paine with respect to the afternoon or evening of November 21?
Mr. McCLOY. I don't have any. I think she has covered it all. I would remind you that we have got to be leaving, Mr. Ford and I, and Senator Cooper around noon. We would like to make as much progress as we can before we go.
Mr. JENNER. That is fine. I will have completed this phase.
Senator COOPER. If you can get through the events of the 22d.
Mr. JENNER. You retired along about 11:30?
Mrs. PAINE. That is my recollection.
Mr. JENNER. The evening of the 21st. Did you sleep through the night?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. I woke at 7:30.
Mr. JENNER. The children did not awaken you at anytime during the night and nothing else awakened you?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall that anything woke me; no.
Mr. JENNER. Is your recollection sufficient that you were not awakened during the night, that is your definite impression at the moment?
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Mrs. PAINE. I get up often in the night to change a diaper or cover a child, but this is a matter of habit and I don't recall whether this night contained such a getting up or not.
Mr. JENNER. You sleep with your children, do you not?
Mrs. PAINE. We are in the same bedroom.
Mr. JENNER. You awakened when in the morning?
Mrs. PAINE. At 7:30.
Mr. JENNER. And when you awakened, immediately after you awakened what did you do?
Mrs. PAINE. When I awoke I felt the house was extremely quiet and the thought occurred to me that Lee might have overslept. I wondered if he had gotten up in time to get off around 7 o'clock because I knew he had to go to meet Wesley Frazier to catch his ride. I looked about and found a plastic coffee cup in the sink that had clearly been used and judged he had had a cup of coffee and left.
Mr. JENNER. Did you see any other evidence of his having had breakfast?
Mrs. PAINE. That was all he normally had for breakfast.
Mr. JENNER. A plastic coffee cup with some remains in it of coffee?
Mrs. PAINE. Instant coffee; yes.
Mr. JENNER. What was his habit with respect to his breakfast when he made his visits?
Mrs. PAINE. It was very normal for him to take coffee.
Mr. JENNER. Was Marina up and about when you arose at 7:30?
Mrs. PAINE. No; she was not.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have a recollection of the garage area? Was the door to the garage, the entrance to the garage from the kitchen, closed or open?
Mrs. PAINE. It was closed. Would it help if I tried to narrate what happened?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. McCLOY. Go ahead and narrate.
Mrs. PAINE. I fixed breakfast for myself and my children, turned on the television set to hear President Kennedy speak in Fort Worth, and had breakfast there. I left the house about 9 with my little girl and boy, because she had a dentist appointment, the little girl. I left the television set on, feeling that Marina might not think to turn it on, but I knew that she would be interested to see President Kennedy.
I then was gone until nearly noon, 11:30 or so, both to the dentist and on some errands following that, came back and there was coverage of the fact of the motorcade in Dallas, but there was no television cameras showing it, as you know, and. Marina thanked me for having left the television set on. She said she woke up in kind of a bad mood, but she had seen the arrival of President Kennedy and Mrs. Kennedy at the airport in Dallas, and had been thrilled with this occasion and with the greeting he had received, and it had lifted her spirits.
Very shortly after this time, I had only just begun to prepare the lunch, the announcement was made that the President had been shot, and I translated this to Marina. She had not caught it from the television statement. And I was crying as I did the translation. And then we sat down and waited at the television set, no longer interested in the preparing of lunch, and waited to hear further word.
I got out some candles and lit them, and my little girl also lighted a candle, and Marina said to me, "Is that a way of praying?", and I said "Yes, it is, just my own way." And it was well over an hour before we heard definitely that the President was dead.
Mr. JENNER. How did that come to your attention?
Mrs. PAINE. It was announced on the television. I think it was even still in the intervening time. It was announced on the television that the shot which was supposed to have killed the President was fired from the Texas School Book Depository Building on Elm.
Mr. JENNER. Did you communicate that to her?
Mrs. PAINE. Marina at this time was in the yard hanging some clothes. I recall going out to her and telling her this.
Mr. JENNER. What did she say?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't believe she said anything. I then also--
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Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. You say "I don't believe she said anything." Is it your recollection?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall anything at all that she said.
Mr. JENNER. Would you--
Mr. McCLOY. You told her that you had heard over the television?
Mrs. PAINE. I heard that the shot had been made--
Mr. McCLOY. Coming from the Texas School Book Depository?
Mrs. PAINE. Schoolbook depository, and I believe I also said I didn't know there was a building on Elm.
Senator COOPER. Why did you go out to tell her, this fact?
Mrs. PAINE. I felt this was terribly close, somebody working in that building had been there. I thought Lee might be able to say somewhat about what happened, had been close to the event. This was my thought, that we would know somebody who would be able to give or possibly give a first-hand.
Senator COOPER. Did you have any thought at all that Lee Oswald might have been the man who fired the shot?
Mrs. PAINE. Absolutely none; no.
Mr. JENNER. Why was that, Mrs. Paine?
Mrs. PAINE. I had never thought of him as a violent man. He had never said anything against President Kennedy, nor anything about President Kennedy. I had no idea that he had a gun. There was nothing that I had seen about him that indicated a man with that kind of grudge or hostility.
Mr. McCLOY. But you told this to Marina because of the association of Lee Oswald with the schoolbook depository?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. I then proceeded to hang some clothes.
Mr. JENNER. She did not comment?
Mrs. PAINE. She did not comment.
Mr. JENNER. Made no comment?
Mrs. PAINE. That is my recollection, that she made no comment. I then helped hang the clothes. My recollection skips then to being again in front of the television listening, and it was then that we heard that the President was. dead. We were beth sitting on the sofa.
Mr. JENNER. Marina had come in from the yard?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. From the hanging of the clothes?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall whether we came in together or whether she preceded me into the house while I finished hanging up the clothes. But 1 do recall then next sitting on the sofa when the announcement was definitely made that the President was dead. And she said to me "What a terrible thing this was for Mrs. Kennedy and for the two children." I remember her words were, "Now the two children will have to grow up without the father." It was very shortly after this we were still sitting on the sofa.
Mr. McCLOY. Just take a little time and compose yourself.
Mrs. PAINE. My neighbor, Mrs. Roberts, came in, really I think to see if we had heard, and--
Senator COOPER. Why don't you rest a few minutes?
Mrs. PAINE. I can proceed. I recall my feeling of anger with her for not being more upset, or she didn't appear to me to be, any more than reporting a remarkable news item. Then it was shortly after that that the bell rang and I went to the door and met some six officers from the sheriff's office and police station.
Mr. JENNER. Was this approximately 3:30 p.m.?
Mrs. PAINE. Oh, I think it was earlier, but I wouldn't be certain. I know that we had put our children to bed. They were all taking a nap, though I am not certain. Yes, my little girl was asleep also. I cried after I had heard that the President was dead, and my little girl was upset, too, always taking it from me more than from any understanding of the situation. And she cried herself to sleep on the sofa, and I moved her to her bed, and Christopher was already asleep in his crib. June was in bed asleep.
Mr. JENNER. Was Marina emotional at all? Did she cry?
Mrs. PAINE. No. She said to me, "I feel very badly also, but we seem to show that we are upset in different ways." She did not actually cry.
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Mr. McCLOY. May I go back a moment there, if I may. You said you were Sitting on the sofa--that she and you were sitting on the sofa. While you were listening or looking at the television, was there any announcement over the television of a suspicion being cast at Lee?
Mrs. PAINE. It had just been announced that they had caught someone in a theatre, but there was no name given.
Mr. McCLOY. So up to this point there was no suggestion that Lee was involved?
Mrs. PAINE. No; not until the time the officers came to the door.
Mr. McCLOY. Not until the officers came?
Mrs. PAINE. Do you want to ask me about that?
Mr. JENNER. Yes. Now, the officers came to the door--
Mr. McCLOY. Pardon me. Were you asking a question?
Mr. JENNER. I was waiting for you.
Mr. McCLOY. Senator Cooper reminded me that there were comments, apparently to the effect that somebody from that building had fired the shots.
Did you hear that when you were sitting on the sofa with Marina? Did you hear that comment on the television?
Mrs. PAINE. No; that was earlier.
Mr. McCLOY. That was even earlier?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; before it was announced that he was dead.
Senator COOPER. But when you were all sitting there--
Mrs. PAINE. It was at that point that I went out to the yard to tell her.
Senator COOPER. To tell her?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Senator COOPER. After that when you went back in and you all were sitting on the sofa and she was there, were there any other comments over the television that someone from this building had fired the shot or that any suspects from--
Mrs. PAINE. You mean, someone associated with the building?
Senator COOPER. Yes.
Mrs. PAINE. No; that was not said.
Senator COOPER. There was nothing else said about that?
Mrs. PAINE. No; just that the shot came from the building.
Mr. McCLOY. Nothing else that you heard?
Mrs. PAINE. Nothing else about it.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, you do have a definite recollection that you communicated to Marina out in the yard that the shot had come from the Texas School Book Depository?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And what did she do when you communicated that to her, apart from what she said? You told us what she said. What did she do? Did she come in the house?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall.
Mr. JENNER. Did she enter the garage?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't know. I never saw her enter the garage, but my recollection is that I was outside hanging clothes after I told her this, but what I can't recall is whether she remained with me hanging the clothes or whether she went in the house.
Mr. JENNER. She might have gone into the house?
Mrs. PAINE. She might have gone into the house.
Mr. JENNER. But, in any event, you do not recall her entering the garage following your advising her of the announcement that the shot had come, or was thought to have come from the Texas School Book Depository?
Mrs. PAINE. I do not recall.
Senator COOPER. When you went out to tell her, was she hanging clothes?
Mrs. PAINE. She was hanging clothes.
Senator COOPER. Then did you go help her, and then both of you were hanging clothes?
Mrs. PAINE. I then helped her. What I can't remember is whether she remained and finished the job with me. I remember I finished, remained until they were all hung.
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Senator COOPER. Do you remember at anytime after that whether or not you were hanging clothes alone?
Mrs. PAINE. That is what I am not certain about. I could well have been.
Mr. JENNER. At anytime that afternoon, in any event, up to the time that the policeman rang your doorbell, did you observe or were you aware that Marina had entered the garage?
Mrs. PAINE. I wasn't aware that she had entered, if she did.
Mr. JENNER. I take it from your testimony it is possible that Marina, after you advised her that the shot was thought to have come from this Texas School Book Depository, that she might have been inside your home while you were still out in the yard?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. And, of course, if that is so, then she could have entered the garage while she was inside your home, and you were out in the yard hanging clothes?
Mrs. PAINE. And I would not have seen her; that is right.
Mr. JENNER. Now, this clothes-hanging occurred in the rear, the yard portion in the rear of your home; is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Is it possible is there a window in the garage opening on the rear of your home on to that yard area, or is the wall blank?
Mrs. PAINE. The window one can look into from the area where one hangs clothes goes to the dining area. From where I stood, I could not have seen the door entering the garage, which would be just beyond--
Mrs JENNER. You are talking about the inside door?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. First I would like to know this
Mrs. PAINE. The answer to your question is clear if you see the plan of the interior of the house. No part of the garage shows, no wall or window or any part of the garage shows from the back--
Mr. JENNER. There is no opening from the rear of the garage, is there?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. So you can't see into the garage, at least from--
Mrs. PAINE. From the back of my house you can't; no.
Mr. JENNER. There are windows opening from your kitchen into the back part, into the yard, are there not?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And being in the yard, could you see when somebody passed across that window, let us say, headed for the garage area?
Mrs. PAINE. No. Heading for the garage area, you would not pass across that window.
Mr. JENNER. You would not. In any event, you had no consciousness at any-time that day or afternoon of Marina having entered the garage up to the time the police came?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Is that true of the time in the morning that you have been describing?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. At anytime from 7:30 in the morning, from the time you awakened until the time the police came, you have no consciousness that Marina was in the garage?
Mrs. PAINE. No consciousness of that.
Mr. JENNER. Did you enter the garage during this period of time?
Mrs. PAINE. I have no specific recollection of having done so.
Mr. JENNER. And you have given us Marina's total exclamation or response to your advising her that the shot had come from the Texas School Book Depository?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. You have recounted that your next-door neighbor, Mrs. Robert--or is it Roberts?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Came over. Was Marina present----
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Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. When she arrived at your home? Were you girls in the living room?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you sit down and talk?
Mrs. PAINE. No. She just came to the door to see if we had heard the news.
Mr. JENNER. She was there just a bit of the time?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. She did not come, actually, into the house.
Mr. JENNER. She did not. She stood in the doorway?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And did she speak to you and to Marina?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, she spoke in English, and I doubt she said much more than, "Have you heard?"
Mr. JENNER. Did Marina say anything to you for translation of Mrs. Reynolds?
Mrs. PAINE. No. Roberts.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Roberts; while Mrs. Roberts was there?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Learning that you girls were aware of the events up to that moment, she left and, as far as you know, returned to her home?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, that morning--if I may, Mr. Chairman, because of the entry of the police, that is a good cutoff point, I would like to go back to the morning for the moment, or the evening before. Mrs. Paine, did you then have what might be called some curtain rods in your garage?
Mrs. PAINE. I believe there were.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have a recollection?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; they were stored in the garage, wrapped in loose brown paper.
Mr. JENNER. Is it the brown paper of the nature and character you described yesterday that you get at the market and have in a roll?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Had you wrapped that package yourself?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, curtain rods can be of various types. One type of curtain rod, as I remember, is a solid brass rod. Others are hollow. Some are shaped. Would you describe these curtain rods, please?
Mrs. PAINE. They were a light weight.
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me; do you still have them?
Mrs. PAINE. I still have them.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mrs. PAINE. Metal rods that you slip the curtain over, not with a ring but just with the cloth itself, and they are expansion rods.
Mr. JENNER. Are they flat on one side?
Mrs. PAINE. They are flat on one side; about an inch wide and about a quarter of an inch thick.
Mr. JENNER. And assume we are holding the rod horizontally, do the edges of the rod slip over?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Senator COOPER. Did you wrap these rods in the paper? Had you wrapped them?
Mrs. PAINE. Sometime previously I had.
Senator COOPER. How long before?
Mrs. PAINE. Oh, possibly a year.
Senator COOPER. What?
Mrs. PAINE. Possibly a year.
Senator COOPER. As far as you know, they had never been changed?
Mrs. PAINE. Moved about, but not changed.
Senator COOPER. Can you just describe the length?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Senator COOPER. The length of the reds, at the time you wrapped them.
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Mrs. PAINE. They would be 36 inches when pushed together.
Senator COOPER. What?
Mrs. PAINE. They would be about maybe 36 inches when pushed together.
Senator COOPER. You remember wrapping them. Do you remember what the size, the length of the reds were at the time you wrapped them?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Senator COOPER. How long?
Mrs. PAINE. Didn't I answer about 36 inches?
Mr. JENNER. In other words, you pushed them together so that then, they were then their minimum length, unexpanded?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. They were not extended, and in that condition they were 36 inches long?
Mrs. PAINE. Something like that.
Mr. JENNER. Now, how many of them were there?
Mrs. PAINE. Two.
Mr. JENNER. These were lightweight metal?
Mrs. PAINE. Very. Now, there was another item that was both heavier and longer.
Mr. JENNER. In that same package?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I don't think so. In another similar package wrapped up just to keep the dust off were two venetian blinds. I guess they were not longer, more like 36 inches also, that had come from the two windows in my bedroom. I took them down to change, and put up pull blinds in their place.
Mr. JENNER. And had you wrapped them?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. How many were there?
Mrs. PAINE. Two.
Mr. JENNER. And what was their length?
Mrs. PAINE. I think around 36 inches. The width of these windows in the back bedroom.
Mr. JENNER. Let us return to the curtain rods first. Do you still have those curtain rods?
Mrs. PAINE. I believe so.
Mr. JENNER. You believe so, or you know; which?
Mrs. PAINE. I think Michael went to look after the assassination, whether these were still in the garage.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have a conversation with Michael as to whether he did or didn't look?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Why was he looking to see if the curtain rod package was there?
Mrs. PAINE. He was particularly interested in the wrapping, was the wrapping still there, the brown paper.
Mr. JENNER. When did this take place?
Mrs. PAINE. After the assassination, perhaps a week or so later, perhaps when one of the FBI people were out; I don't really recall.
Mr. JENNER. And was the package with the curtain rods found on that occasion?
Mrs. PAINE. It is my recollection it was.
Mr. JENNER. What about the venetian blind package?
Mrs. PAINE. Still there, still wrapped.
Mr. JENNER. You are fully conscious of the fact that that package is still there?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And to the best of your knowledge, information, and belief the other package, likewise, is there?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Senator COOPER. Let me ask a question there. After the assassination, at anytime did you go into the garage and look to see if both of these packages were there?
Mrs. PAINE. A week and a half, or a week later.
Senator COOPER. At any time?
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Mrs. PAINE. Did I, personally?
Senator COOPER. Have you seen these packages since the assassination?
Mrs. PAINE. It seems to me I recall seeing a package.
Senator COOPER. What?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall opening it up and looking in carefully. I seem to recall seeing the package
Senator COOPER. Both of them?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Senator COOPER. Or just one?
Mrs. PAINE. Both.
Senator COOPER. Did you feel them to see if the rods were in there?
Mrs. PAINE. No. I think Michael did, but I am not certain.
Senator COOPER. But you never did, yourself?
Mrs. PAINE. It was not my most pressing--
Senator COOPER. What?
Mrs. PAINE. It was not the most pressing thing I had to do at that time.
Senator COOPER. I know that. But you must have read after the assassination the story about Lee Oswald saying, he told Mr. Frazier, I think, that he was carrying some curtain rods in the car?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Senator COOPER. Do you remember reading that?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I remember reading that.
Senator COOPER. Didn't that lead you-Did it lead you then to go in and see if the curtain rods were there?
Mrs. PAINE. It was all I could do at that point to answer my door, answer my telephone, and take care of my children.
Senator COOPER. I understand you had many things to do.
Mrs. PAINE. So I did not.
Senator COOPER. You never did do it?
Mrs. PAINE. I am not certain whether I specifically went in and checked on that. I recall a conversation with Michael about it and, to the best of my recollection, things looked as I expected to find them looking out there. This package with brown paper was still there.
Mr. JENNER. By any chance, does that package appear in the photograph that you have identified of the interior of your garage?
Mrs. PAINE. I think it is this that is on a shelf almost to the ceiling.
Mr. JENNER. May I get over here, Mr. Chairman?
Mrs. PAINE. Along the west edge of the garage, up here.
Mr. JENNER. In view of this, I think it is of some importance that you mark on Commission Exhibit 429 what appears to you to be the package in which the curtain rods were.
Mrs. PAINE. To the best of my recollection.
Mr. JENNER. Now the witness has by an arrow indicated a shelf very close to the ceiling in the rear of the garage, and an arrow pointing to what appears to be a long package on that shelf, underneath which she has written "Wrapping paper around venetian blinds"--
Mrs. PAINE. "And thin."
Mr. JENNER. What is the next word?
Mrs. PAINE. "Curtain rods."
Mr. JENNER. There were two packages, Mrs. Paine, one with the rods and one with the venetian blinds?
Mrs. PAINE. I can't recall. The reds were so thin they hardly warranted a package of their own, but that is rationalization, as you call it.
Mr. JENNER. You do have a recollection that those rods were a very lightweight metal?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Do you?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. They were not round.
Mr. JENNER. They were flat and slender?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. They were not at all heavy?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
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Mr. JENNER. They were curved? Were they curved in any respect?
Mrs. PAINE. They curved at the ends to attach to the bracket that held them up on the wall.
Mr. JENNER. May I use the chalk on the board, Mr. Chairman. Perhaps it might be better for you, Mrs. Paine, so I don't influence you. Would you draw a picture of the rods?
Mrs. PAINE. You are looking down from the top. It attaches here, well, over a loop thing on the wall. Looking from the inside, it curves over a slight bit, and then this is recessed.
Mr. JENNER. I am going to have to have you do that over on a sheet of paper. Will you remain standing for the moment. We will give it an exhibit number. But I would like to have you proceed there. What did you say this was, in the lower diagram?
Mrs. PAINE. You are looking down.
Mr. JENNER. Now, where was the break?
Mrs. PAINE. The break?
Mr. JENNER. You said they were extension.
Mrs. PAINE. That is right. When they are up on the window, it would be like that.
Mr. JENNER. You have drawn a double line to indicate what would be seen if you were looking down into the U-shape of the rod?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. The double line indicates what on either side?
Mrs. PAINE. That the lightweight metal, white, turned over, bent around, something less than a quarter of an inch on each side.
Mr. JENNER. Now, would you be good enough to make the same drawing. We will mark that sheet as Commission Exhibit No. 449 upon which the witness is now drawing the curtain rod.
(Commission Exhibit No. 449 was marked for identification.)
Mr. JENNER. While you are doing that, Mrs. Paine, would you be good enough when you return to Irving, Tex., to see if those rods are at hand, and some of our men are going to be in Irving next week. We might come out and take a
look at them, and perhaps you might surrender them to us.
Mrs. PAINE. You are perfectly welcome to them.
Mr. JENNER. Would you in that connection, Mrs. Paine do not open the package until we arrive?
Mrs. PAINE. I won't even look, then.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, would you mark "A" in the upper elevation and "B" in the lower elevation. The elevation in the drawing you have indicated as "A" is a depiction of what?
Mrs. PAINE. The curtain rod, as you might look at it from the top when it is hanging in its position, when it is placed in position on the window.
Mr. JENNER. And "B"?
Mrs. PAINE. "B" is as it might appear if you could look at it from outside the house; the window.
Mr. JENNER. While the rod was in place?
Mrs. PAINE. While the rod was in place.
Mr. JENNER. You have written to the left-hand side "Place at which it attaches to wall fixture," indicating the butt end of the curved side of the rod?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And the two oblongs, each of which you have put at the ends
of depiction "B," represent the upturned ends of the fixtures at each end?
Mrs. PAINE. Right.
Mr. JENNER. Would you put a little line as to where the break was in the rod.
I offer in evidence, Mr. Chairman, as Commission Exhibit No. 449 the drawing that the witness has just made, and about which she has testified.
Senator COOPER. It will be admitted as part of the evidence.
(Commission Exhibit No. 449 was received in evidence.)
Mr. JENNER. Had there been any conversation between you and Lee Oswald, or between you and Marina, or any conversation taking place in your presence prior to this occasion, in which the subject of curtain rods was mentioned?
Mrs. PAINE. No; there was no such conversation.
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Mr. JENNER. Was the subject of curtain rods--had that ever been mentioned during all of these weekends that Lee Oswald had come to your home, commencing, I think you said, with his first return on October 4, 1963?
Mrs. PAINE. It. had not been mentioned.
Mr. JENNER. Never by anybody?
Mrs. PAINE. By anybody.
Mr. JENNER. Had the subject of curtain rods been mentioned even inadvertently, let us say, by some neighbor talking about the subject, as to whether
you had some curtain rods you weren't using?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. That might be loaned? I think you had testified that the curtain rods, when unextended, were 36 inches long, approximately?
Mrs. PAINE. That is a guess. I would say, thinking further about it, it must be shorter than that. One went over a window that I am pretty sure was 30 inches wide, and one went over a window that was 42 inches wide, so it had to extend between these. They were identical, and had served at these different windows.
Mr. JENNER. The rods were identical in length when unextended?
Mrs. PAINE. Or when fully extended; yes.
Mr. JENNER. What?
Mrs. PAINE. Or when fully extended.
Mr. JENNER. Or when fully extended; yes. They could be extended to as great as 42 inches?
Mrs. PAINE. At least that. I am just saying what windows they were used for.
Mr. JENNER. If the rods are still available, we will be able to obtain them?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And we will know exactly their length, extended and unextended. Now, as you think further about it, the reds when not extended, that is, when pushed together, might be but 30 inches long?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Because you recall that you have a 30-inch-wide window.
Mrs. PAINE. I believe it is more that width than 36.
Mr. JENNER. Would you hold up your hands to indicate what you think the width or the length of the rods is when not extended?
Mrs. PAINE. Oh, I don't recall. Maybe like this.
Mr. JENNER. Would you measure that, Mr. Liebeler, please?
Mr. LIEBELER. About 28 inches.
Mr. JENNER. I intend to leave the subject of the curtain rods, gentlemen, if you have any questions
Mr. McCLOY. May I ask a question. Did the FBI question you about the curtain rods any, or the Dallas police officials?
Mrs. PAINE. Not the Dallas police.
Mr. McCLOY. Not the Dallas police?
Mrs. PAINE. No. It is possible the FBI did. I don't recall such question.
Mr. McCLOY. They didn't take any rods from the garage that you are aware of?
Mrs. PAINE. You are aware what the police took. I never did know exactly what they took. I have never heard any mention of the reds having left.
Mr. McCLOY. You are not conscious of the Dallas police ever talking to you about curtain rods?
Mrs. PAINE. Absolutely no.
Mr. McCLOY. But possibly some member of the FBI did?
Mrs. PAINE. Possibly. I can't recall.
Mr. McCLOY. You can't recall?
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever mention to the FBI anything, or anybody else up until recently, the existence of the curtain reds about which you have now testified?
Mrs. PAINE. I have already said Michael and I discussed it.
Mr. JENNER. When?
Mrs. PAINE. A week or two after the assassination would be my guess.
Mr. JENNER. And did you discuss those particular curtain rods about which you have now testified?
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Mrs. PAINE. We were particularly interested in seeing if the wrapping paper that we used to wrap these things was there, and it was. I recall that.
Representative FORD. Did Lee Oswald know where you kept this roll of wrapping paper?
Mrs. PAINE. To the best of my knowledge, he did not know where I kept it.
I had never wrapped something when he was around. Neither he nor Marina had ever asked to use this paper or the string that I had.
representative FORD. Where did you keep it? I don't recall precisely.
Mrs. PAINE. I can be very clear. There is a picture here of a large secretary desk on Commission Exhibit No. 435. It is in the bottom drawer, you see, in that desk. This is not the secretary desk upon which--
Mr. JENNER. The note was found?
Mrs. PAINE. The note was found.
Representative FORD. You kept it in the lower drawer?
Mrs. PAINE. Along with some gum tape and string.
Representative FORD. And this is the section shown on Commission Exhibit 435?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Reporter, you caught the measurement by Mr. Liebeler, 28 inches. Mrs. Paine, what is your best recollection as to how many curtain rods there were?
Mrs. PAINE. Two, I am certain.
Mr. JENNER. Just two? And you wrapped the package yourself, did you?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. When you and Michael undertook your discussion about curtain rods, did you or did he open up this package?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall.
Mr. JENNER. Is it your present best recollection that as far as you know, the package, as far as wrapping is concerned, is in the same condition now as when you wrapped it initially?
Mrs. PAINE. Certainly very similar.
Senator COOPER. What was the answer?
Mrs. PAINE. Certainly very similar. I don't recall making any change.
Mr. JENNER. Is there a possibility that the package was unwrapped at anytime?
Mrs. PAINE. In connection with this inquiry of Michael's; yes.
Mr. JENNER. You think he might have but you don't know.
Mrs. PAINE. Or I might have. I don't recall. I recall that it wasn't something that interested me as much as the other things I had to get done.
Mr. JENNER. But the rods about which you have testified as far as you know are on the shelf in your garage at your home?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall whether when the FBI discussed this subject with you, if you can recall that, that you advised the FBI of these particular curtain rods?
Mrs. PAINE. I am not perfectly certain that they discussed it with me.
Mr. JENNER. You just have no recollection of any interview with the FBI on this particular subject?
Mrs. PAINE. It seems to me they brought it up, but I don't recall the content nor whether they went out. I certainly think I would remember if I had gone out to the garage with an FBI representative.
Mr. JENNER. But you do not?
Mrs. PAINE. But I do not remember such an occasion.
Mr. JENNER. Unless the members of the Commission have any further questions with respect to the curtain rods, I will return to the afternoon.
Senator COOPER. I want to ask just two questions. Before the assassination, did you know where the package with the curtain rods in it was situated within the garage?
Mrs. PAINE. I gave it no attention but yes, it is my impression that I did go out to see if things were where I expected to find them. They were wrapped in brown paper, the curtain rods and venetian blinds. And found things there. I don't recall that I looked into the package.
Mr. JENNER. You did find the package?
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Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. What was the size of the package in length and width if you can remember at the time you wrapped it?
Mrs. PAINE. I suppose about like this, not closed but just wrapping paper folded over.
Mr. JENNER. Would you hold your hands there please.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. But by no means a neat package, just enough to keep the dust off.
Mr. LIEBELER. Thirty-two and a half inches.
Senator COOPER. What was the width of the package?
Mrs. PAINE. Like so.
Senator COOPER. That you wrapped?
Mrs. PAINE. Now I am not certain. I am really thinking now of the package with the venetian blind.- I don't recall exactly the package with the rods, whether they were included in this other or whether they warranted a package of their own.
Mr. LIEBELER. The witness indicated a width of approximately 7 1/2 inches.
Senator COOPER. I will ask one other question. The ends of the rod which are at right angles to the long surface, how long? What is their approximate size?
Mrs. PAINE. Two and a half inches to three inches.
Senator COOPER. What?
Mrs. PAINE. Two and a half to three inches.
Senator COOPER. All right, go ahead.
Mr. JENNER. Anyone entering your home from the outside walking up your driveway and looking in the windows, would they see anybody sitting on the sofa you have described?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Do you sit on the sofa to look at your television set?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Would you take the ground floor plan that is before you and indicate--
Mrs. PAINE. Do you want me to draw in the sofa and the television set?
Mr. JENNER. No; I just want you to put an "X" as to where the sofa is, and put a double "X" as to where the television set is. Now the opening that appears to the left of the double "X," is that a window or a door?
Mrs. PAINE. That is the front door.
Mr. JENNER. And is there any window in that wall, in the living room wall.
Mrs. PAINE. Practically the rest of the wall is window,.
Mr. JENNER. And on this drawing it appears as a solid wall?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. The fact is that is a picture window?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right. It is just your printing filled in. It is exactly like this. There it is.
Mr. JENNER. Turning to Commission Exhibit 431, the picture window is shown there, is it not?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now it would be possible, would it not, if someone walked along the sidewalk and was intent on peering in to see if anyone is there, to see somebody sitting at the sofa looking at the television set?
Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes.
(Discussion off the record. )
Mr. McCLOY. I am very anxious to hear your story before we leave.
Senator COOPER. I can stay here while the details are filled in.
Mr. JENNER. The police arrived and what occurred.
Mrs. PAINE. I went to the door. They announced themselves as from both the sheriff's office and the Dallas Police Office, showed me at least one package or two. I was very surprised.
Mr. JENNER. Did you say anything?
Mrs. PAINE. I said nothing. I think I just dropped my jaw. And the man in front said by way of explanation "We have Lee Oswald in custody. He is charged with shooting an officer." This is the first I had any idea that Lee
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might be in trouble with the police or in any way involved in the day's events. I asked them to come in. They said they wanted to search the house. I asked if they had a warrant. They said they didn't. They said they could get the sheriff out here right away with one if I insisted. And I said no, that was all right, they could be my guests.
They then did search the house. I directed them to the fact that most of the Oswald's things were in storage in my garage and showed where the garage was, and to the room where Marina and the baby had stayed where they would find the other things which belonged to the Oswalds. Marina and I went with two or three of these police officers to the garage.
Mr. JENNER. How many police officers were there?
Mrs. PAINE. There were six altogether, and they were busy in various parts of the house. The officer asked me in the garage did Lee Oswald have any weapons or guns. I said no, and translated the question to Marina, and she said yes; that she had seen a portion of it--had looked into--she indicated the blanket roll on the floor.
Mr. JENNER. Was the blanket roll on the floor at that time?
Mrs. PAINE. She indicated the blanket roll on the floor very close to where I was standing. As she told me about it I stepped onto the blanket roll.
Mr. JENNER. This might be helpful. You had shaped that up yesterday and I will just put it on the floor.
Mrs. PAINE. And she indicated to me that she had peered into this roll and saw a portion of what she took to be a gun she knew her husband to have, a rifle. And I then translated this to the officers that she knew that her husband had a gun that he had stored in here.
Mr. JENNER. Were you standing on the blanket when you advised--
Mrs. PAINE. When I translated. I then stepped off of it and the officer picked it up in the middle and it bent so.
Mr. JENNER. It hung limp just as it now hangs limp in your hand?
Mrs. PAINE. And at this moment I felt this man was in very deep trouble and may have done--
Mr. McCLOY. Were the strings still on it?
Mrs. PAINE. The strings were still on it. It looked exactly as it had at previous times I had seen it. It was at this point I say I made the connection with the assassination, thinking that possibly, knowing already that the shot had been made from the School Book Depository, and that this was a rifle that was missing, I wondered if he would not also be charged before the day was out with the assassination.
Mr. JENNER. Did you say anything?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I didn't say that.
Mr. JENNER. When the officer picked up the blanket package, did you hear any crinkling as though there was paper inside?
Mrs. PAINE. No crinkling.
Mr. JENNER. None whatsoever. When you stepped on the package, did you have a feeling through your feet that there was something inside the package in the way of paper.
Mrs. PAINE. Not anything in the way of paper.
Mr. JENNER. Or wrapping.
Mrs. PAINE. Or anything that crinkled; no. I did think it was hard but that was my cement floor.
Mr. JENNER. But definitely you had no sensation of any paper inside?
Mrs. PAINE. No such sensation.
Mr. JENNER. Of the nature or character of the wrapping paper you identified yesterday.
Mrs. PAINE. No; and when he picked it up I would think such paper would rattle, but there was no such sound. Marina said nothing at this time. She was very white, and of course I judged--
Mr. JENNER. Did she blanch?
Mrs. PAINE. She is not a person to immediately show her feelings necessarily. She was white. I wouldn't say that it was a sudden thing. I can't be certain that it was sudden at that point.
Representative FORD. How close was she standing to it.
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Mrs. PAINE. From here to there, about 6 feet.
Mr. JENNER. Proceed.
Mrs. PAINE. The officers then said they would like me and Marina to go down to the police station, and I said well, I would seek to try to get a baby-sitter to come to stay with the children so that we might accompany them. About this time, we then left the garage as I recall, because then Michael Paine arrived at the front door. I was in the living room when he came. And I said "Did you know to come" and he said that he had heard Oswald's name mentioned on the radio, and had come over directly, for which I may say I was very glad.
Mr. JENNER. How far away from your home where did he live?
Mrs. PAINE. It would take about a half hour drive he was working--from where he was working to come, 20 minutes perhaps.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have the address at the tip of your tongue?
Mrs. PAINE. Where he works; no. I don't know the address. I know how to get to it.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know where he lived?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. What was the address?
Mrs. PAINE. He lived at the Villa Fontaine Apartments, apartment 217, 2377 Dalworth.
Mr. JENNER. D-A-L-W-O-R-T-H?
Mrs. PAINE. D-A-L-W-O-R-T-H, in Grand Prairie, Tex.
Mr. JENNER. Where is Grand Prairie, Tex.
Mrs. PAINE. Grand Prairie is suburban to Dallas, between Dallas and Fort Worth, nearer to Dallas, and it was a location very near to where he worked.
Mr. JENNER. What distance in miles from your home?
Mrs. PAINE. You measure distance in minutes in Texas; driving time. I don't now; 20 minutes to where he lived.
Mr. JENNER. All right, proceed.
Mrs. PAINE. The police officers then asked if Michael would also accompany us to the police station and he said he would. I changed clothes to a suit from slacks, and went to the house of my babysitter. She has no telephone. I need to walk to her.
Mr. JENNER. Where was Marina in the meantime?
Mrs. PAINE. Marina remained in the house with the children. Lynn by this time had awakened as I recall. Christopher was still sleeping and I think June was also. And I said I would walk over to my neighbors to ask if--there was something that intervened I just remembered. I first went and asked my immediate neighbor, Mrs. Roberts, if she could keep the children for a short time in the afternoon, but she was just on her way to go somewhere. She couldn't. So then I went to the home of the person I normally have for a baby- sitter. It was now after school or this babysitter would not have been there, which brings us to 3:30 perhaps. And I asked the mother if the young girl, teenage girl, could come and stay at the house. I was accompanied to the house by one of the officers. As we left the house I said "Oh, you don't have to go with me." Oh, he said, he'd be glad to. And then it occurred to me he had been assigned to go with me, and I said "come along." It was the first I have ever experienced being in the company of people who suspected me of anything, and of course that is their business.
We did arrange then for the girls to come back, one or two, I forget whether it was two of the daughters or one that came then to my house to stay with the children. As I came back, I noticed the officers carrying a number of things from the house, and I looked into the back of one of the cars. It was across the street from my house, and saw he had three cases of 78 records of mine, and I said, "You don't need those and I want to use them on Thanksgiving weekend. I have promised to lead a folk dance conference on the weekend. I will need those records which are all folk dance records and I doubt that you might get them back at that time."
And I said, "that is a 16 mm projector. You don't want that. It is mine."
And he took me by the arm and he said, "We'd better get down to the station. We have wasted too much time as it is." And I said, "I want a list of what you are taking, please." Or perhaps that was before. As much answer
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as I ever got was "We'd better get to the station." Then I evidently had made them nervous because when we got back from this car to the house, Marina wanted to change from slacks as I had already done to a dress. They would not permit her to do that. I said "She has a right to, she is a woman, to dress as she wishes before going down." And I directed her to the bathroom to change. The officer opened the bathroom door and said no, she had no time to change. I was still making arrangements with the babysitters, arranging for our leaving the children there, and one of the officers made a statement to the effect of "we'd better get this straight in a hurry Mrs. Paine or we'll just take the children down and leave them with juvenile while we talk to you."
And I said "Lynn, you may come too" in reply to this. I don't like being threatened. And then Christopher was still sleeping so I left him in the house and Lynn, my daughter, and Marina took her daughter and her baby with her to the police station, so we were quite a group going into town in the car. Michael was in one car, Marina and I and all the children were in another with three police officers as I recall. One of them spoke some Czech, tried to understand what was being said. The one in the front seat turned to me and said "Are you a Communist," and I said, "No, I am not, and I don't even feel the need of a Fifth Amendment." And he was satisfied with that. We went on then to the police station, and waited until such time as they could interview us.
They interviewed Michael at one point separately.
Mr. JENNER. Separately?
Mrs. PAINE. And they interviewed Marina while I was present.
Mr. JENNER. Did you interpret for her?
Mrs. PAINE. They had an interpreter there, a Mr. Ilya Mamantov whom I was very glad to see. He is the son-in-law of a woman who has tutored me in Dallas, so I had met him before. I was very glad to have someone whose skill in Russian was greater than mine, and Marina had said even in the car going down to the station, "your Russian has suddenly become no good at all." She had asked me again in the car, "isn't it true that the penalty for shooting someone in Texas is the electric chair" and I said "yes, that is true."
Then at the police station--
Representative FORD. May I ask this. Was there any interrogation other than what you have mentioned by police officers in the car?
Mrs. PAINE. No; none that I recall.
Representative FORD. You and Marina talked back and forth freely or to a limited degree?
Mrs. PAINE. We talked back and forth freely and then she wanted me to translate to the officer, to the one who understood some Czech, to help him understand. Then in the room where we were asked questions, what I particularly recall was they wanted Marina to say what she had said in the garage to the effect that she had seen a rifle in that wrapped blanket, and she made the statement again and it was made up into an affidavit for her to sign with Mr. Mamantov making very clear the translation of each sentence, each word, and I recall her statement was to the effect that she had looked in and seen a portion of the gun, of something which she took to be the gun she knew her husband had; that she had not opened the package, but had just looked into it.
They then brought in--
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, a slight interruption.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Was the occasion when Mrs. Oswald, Marina, made the remark of having seen a weapon inside the blanket, was that the first notice that you had of any kind or character that there was a weapon in your garage?
Mrs. PAINE. That is absolutely the first. Indeed it was contrary to my expectation as I said. When the officer asked me I answered his question before I even translated it, answered it in the negative, and then translated it and found that indeed there had been a gun there.
Mr. JENNER. All right, go ahead.
Mrs. PAINE. They then showed a gun, a rifle to Marina, and asked her if she could identify the gun as being her husband's.
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She said her husband had a dark gun, dark in color, that she wasn't absolutely certain that this was the gun. She couldn't definitely recall the sight on the top of it.
Mr. JENNER. The telescope sight?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. Then I also was asked to make an affidavit which I signed, to the effect that I had heard her say in the garage that she had looked into this package and seen what she took to be a rifle she knew her husband had. It was after they had finished with this session that I went back in the same room where Michael was, and Mrs. Oswald, senior, came in, Mrs. Marguerite Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. Had you met her at anytime up to that moment?
Mrs. PAINE. No. I had never met her before.
Mr. JENNER. Had you ever talked with her at anytime up to that moment?
Mrs. PAINE. I had never talked with her.
Mr. JENNER. Were you advised in advance of anything that had been said that she was to come?
Mrs. PAINE. No. She said she had heard on her car radio, on her way to work in the afternoon.
Mr. JENNER. What time was this about?
Mrs. PAINE. She heard it?
Mr. JENNER. No; that she came?
Mrs. PAINE. It was, it was certainly supper time. We had eaten no lunch.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mrs. PAINE. And she said she heard on her car radio that Lee Oswald had been in custody in Dallas and had come over. Previously during October and November Marina. had told me she regretted that Lee didn't wish to keep up contact with his mother because she thought it was only proper to tell the mother of the coming grandchild, and then she wanted to announce the birth when the baby had come but she said Lee didn't try to keep her address, and Marina didn't know how to contact her or didn't want to do so around her husband certainly.
There was a warm greeting in the police station.
Mr. JENNER. Between whom?
Mrs. PAINE. Between Marguerite Oswald and Marina Oswald and I recall both wept and Mrs. Marguerite Oswald exclaimed over the new baby, and then held the baby. I then also met Robert Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. When did he come with relation to when Marguerite Oswald entered?
Mrs. PAINE. It seemed to me later.
Mr. JENNER. Had you met Robert Oswald at anytime up to that moment?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I had not.
Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion that had taken place during the course of the day up to that moment indicating to you that Robert Oswald might or would arrive on the scene?
Mrs. PAINE. No; nothing that day about Robert at all.
Mr. JENNER. When he entered was there an indication to you at all that none of the people, in addition to yourself, was aware that he was about to--that they had any advance advice that he was going to be present?
Mrs. PAINE. There was no indication of any advance advice to any of the people.
Mr. JENNER. Was there any indication to the contrary?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't think anyone was really surprised that he had come.
Mr. JENNER. There was this lack of prior notice?
Mrs. PAINE. Lack of prior notice. We then talked about where to go.
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, does the "we" include your husband all the time?
Mrs. PAINE. The "we" then was a group at this point of my husband, Marguerite Oswald, Marina Oswald, Robert Oswald, and myself, three children.
Mr. JENNER. Did your husband know Robert Oswald prior to this time?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Were they introduced to each other on this occasion?
Mrs. PAINE. They were in the same room and they might have been. It was agreed that Robert was to stay in a hotel. Marguerite Oswald asked i/she could come out and stay with Marina at my home, and it was agreed.
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Mr. JENNER. Was it agreed that Marina would stay at your house that night?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; certainly all her baby things were there. So, we went back there. We were taken back by police officers.
Mr. JENNER. Everybody assumed she would return back to your home?
Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes.
Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion that would indicate any reluctance on
the part of anybody that she return to your home?
Mrs. PAINE. None.
Mr. JENNER. None whatsoever by anybody?
Mrs. PAINE. That is correct, none whatsoever by anybody.
The police officers brought us back to my home. It was by this time dark, and I think it was about 9 o'clock in the evening. I asked Michael to go out and buy hamburgers at a drive-in so we wouldn't have to cook, and we ate these as best we could, and began to prepare to retire. We talked. I have a few specific recollections of that period that I will put in here.
Just close to the time of retiring Marina told me that just the night before Lee had said to her he hoped they could get an apartment together again soon. As she said this, I felt she was hurt and confused, wondering how he could have said such a thing which indicated wanting to be together with her when he must have already been planning something that would inevitably cause separation. I asked her did she think that Lee had killed the President and she said, "I don't know." And I felt that this was not something to talk about really anyway. But my curiosity overcame my politeness.
Now, back a little bit to the time in the living room, Mrs. Oswald and Michael and Marina and I were all there, and Mrs. Oswald, I recall, said, I mean of course Mrs. Marguerite Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. PAINE. That if they were prominent people there would be three of the lawyers down in the city jail now trying to defend her son, and coming to his aid.
She felt that since they were just small people that there wouldn't--they wouldn't get the proper attention or care, and I tried to say this was not a small case. That most careful attention would be given it, but she didn't feel that way.
Mr. JENNER. You made no impression on her?
Mrs. PAINE. I made no impression on her.
Mr. JENNER. I take it
Mrs. PAINE. She made an impression on me.
Mr. JENNER. I think we would prefer if you would call her Marguerite. It would avoid confusion.
Mrs. PAINE. All right. Somewhere in that evening before we retired, and after we had eaten, the doorbell rang and two men from Life Magazine appeared. I was--
Mr. JENNER. Had you had any advance notice?
Mrs. PAINE. We had had no advance notice.
Mr. JENNER. Nobody did?
Mrs. PAINE. Nobody did.
Mr. JENNER. You in particular and none of the others in the room?
Mrs. PAINE. None of the others.
Mr. JENNER. That was your impression?
Mrs. PAINE. I would be quite certain that none of the others and myself--
Mr. JENNER. At least that was your impression at the moment?
Mrs. PAINE. That they had no prior information that these people might come. I will say I was not surprised that anyone of the press found his way to our door at that point. If anything, I was surprised there weren't more. Life Magazine was the only company or group to appear that evening. I permitted them to come in, and I felt that Mrs. Marguerite Oswald was interested in the possibility of their buying the story or paying for what information she and Marina might give them.
Mr. JENNER. Had that occurred to you?
Mrs. PAINE. Had that occurred to me? No. But then, too, I wasn't thinking about pay for lawyers but she made that connection verbally in my presence.
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Mr. JENNER. What connection?
Mrs. PAINE. Between the need for money.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. PAINE. The availability of Life Magazine and the need to pay for a lawyer.
Mr. JENNER. And she was the one who raised that subject?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; she raised it.
Mr. JENNER. For commercialization of the story?
Mrs. PAINE. I recall now she raised it definitely enough that Mr. Tommy Thompson of Life called, I believe still that evening, to see if he could offer anything or what he might be empowered to offer.
Mr. JENNER. That was all instigated by her?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; very much so. I noticed that the other man, whose name I forget, had a camera and I was amazed, and I also saw he took a picture and I was amazed, he tried with a dim light in the room.
Mr. JENNER. When you say he took a picture, you don't mean he took a picture from your living room?
Mrs. PAINE. He took a picture in my living room. He photographed. I saw him wind his roll.
Mr. JENNER. Thank you.
Mrs. PAINE. I made the mistake I now think of turning on another light simply as an act of hostess, it was dim in the living room but I hadn't realized until later that I was making it possible for him to take a picture.
I didn't know what was best for me to do as hostess. It seemed to me that Mrs. Oswald, Sr., Mrs. Marguerite Oswald, was both interested in encouraging the Life Magazine representatives and still didn't really want her picture taken, and I had no personal objection to their being there. But I considered the Oswalds my guests and I didn't want to have the Life Magazine people there if they didn't want them. But they left fairly promptly, saying that they would come back in the morning.
Mr. JENNER. Did they say anything about your talking or not talking to any other news media representatives until they had talked with you?
Mrs. PAINE. Not to me.
Mr. JENNER. Nothing of that implied?
Mrs. PAINE. No. It was after this that the conversation I have already related with Marina took place, and we finished our preparations for bed. She said to me she didn't think she would sleep fairly soon and asked if she could borrow my hair dryer, she would stay up and take a shower, which she often said renewed her spirits, and I then went to bed, having given her my hair dryer. We woke perhaps something after 7 the next morning or closer to 8.
Mr. JENNER. When you say "we", who do you mean?
Mrs. PAINE. The household. I think we had not yet--we pretty much woke all at once.
Mr. JENNER. Did your husband remain at your home?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; he remained at my home that night, the first time he had been there in a great long time. We were still eating breakfast or had just begun when the two Life people arrived again, this time with an interpreter, a woman doctor whose name I don't remember, and Marguerite Oswald and Marina Oswald, with her two little girls went with these two Life Magazine people to downtown Dallas for the purpose of seeing Lee, and Marguerite Oswald wanted to see that he got legal counsel immediately.
They were acting, the Life people were acting in this case as shovers, I feel, and I also thought Marguerite Oswald was hoping that something could be arranged between them, that would be financially helpful.
Mr. JENNER. Did she say anything that further stimulated your thoughts and reaction in that direction?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. I don't recall specifically but I have the clear impression that--
Mr. JENNER. From her conversation with the Life representatives?
Mrs. PAINE. From her conversation. Yes. They left quite soon, I remember wishing Marina had taken more time to have more breakfast since it was going to be a trying day, and that is the last I saw her until March 9, in the evening, very recently.
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Mr. JENNER. March 9, 1964?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Just a week or so ago?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right. She left, of course, expecting to come back. She took only the immediate needs of the baby's diapers and bottle, and I fully expected her to come back later that same day. I don't really recall. I think there must have been some newsmen out then that morning, later that morning.
Mr. JENNER. To see you, at your home?
Mrs. PAINE. At my home. I would be certain of that. The Houston Post--well, yes. And Michael was there also, at least in the morning as I recall, and talked with these people.
I believe the local paper, Irving News, was there. Then Michael, as I recall, went to do something related to his work or had to do some shopping.
Mr. JENNER. He left your home?
Mrs. PAINE. Anyway, in the afternoon I was the only one there and I felt I had better get some grocery shopping done so as to be prepared for a long stay home just answering the doorbell and telling what I could to the people who wanted to know. I was just preparing to go to the grocery store when several officers arrived again from the Dallas Police Office and asked if they could search.
This time I was in the yard, the front yard on the grass, and asked if they could search and held up their warrant and I said, yes, they could search. They said they were looking for something specific and I said, "I want to go to the grocery store, I'll just go and you go ahead and do your searching."
I then went to the grocery store and when I came back they had finished and left, locking my door which necessitated my getting out my key, I don't normally lock my door when I go shopping.
Representative FORD. Did you take your children shopping?
Mrs. PAINE. Always. Then about 3:30 or 4 I got a telephone call.
Mr. JENNER. The phone rang?
Mrs. PAINE. The phone rang; I answered it.
Mr. JENNER. Did you recognize the voice?
Mrs. PAINE. I recognized the voice but I don't recall what he said?
Mr. JENNER. What did the voice say?
Mrs. PAINE. The voice said: "This is Lee."
Mr. JENNER. Give your best recollection of everything you said and if you can, please, everything he said, and exactly what you said.
Mrs. PAINE. I said, "Well, Hi." And he said he wanted to ask me to call Mr. John Abt in New York for him after 6 p.m. He gave me a telephone number
of an office in New York and a residence in New York.
Mr. JENNER. Two telephone numbers he gave you?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. One office and one residence of Mr. John Abt. Did he say who Mr. John Abt was?
Mrs. PAINE. He said he was an attorney he wanted to have.
Mr. JENNER. Represent him?
Mrs. PAINE. To represent him. He thanked me for my concern.
Mr. JENNER. Did he tell you or ask you what you were to do or say to Mr. Abt if you reached him?
Mrs. PAINE. I carried the clear impression I was to ask him if he would serve as attorney for Lee Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Have you given the substance of the conversation in as much detail, of the entire conversation, as you now can recall?
Mrs. PAINE. There is a little more that is.
Senator COOPER. Why don't you just go ahead and tell it as you remember it, everything that he said and you said?
Mrs. PAINE. I can't give the specific words to this part but I carry a clear impression, too, that he sounded to me almost as if nothing out of the ordinary had happened.
I would make this telephone call for him, would help him, as I had in other ways previously. He was, he expressed gratitude to me. I felt, but did not
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express, considerable irritation at his seeming to be so apart from the situation, so presuming of his own innocence, if you will, but I did say I would make the call for him.
Then he called back almost immediately. I gather that he had made the call to me on the permission to make a different call and then he got specific permission from the police to make a call to me and the call was identical.
Mr. JENNER. This is speculation?
Mrs. PAINE. This is speculation but the content of the second call was almost identical.
Mr. JENNER. The phone rang?
Mrs. PAINE. He asked me to contact John Abt.
Mr. JENNER. He identified himself and he asked you to make the call?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. What did he say?
Mrs. PAINE. He wanted me to call this lawyer.
Mr. JENNER. Did you express any surprise for him to call back almost immediately giving you the same message that he had given previously?
Mrs. PAINE. I think somebody must have said, that the officers had said he could call, make this call.
Mr. JENNER. Did you say anything about the fact that he had already just called you about the same subject matter?
Mrs. PAINE. He may have added.
Mr. JENNER. Did you, please?
Mrs. PAINE. No. I was quite stunned that he called at all or that he thought he could ask anything of me, appalled, really.
Mr. McCLOY. Did he say he was innocent, or did he just have this conversation with respect to the retention of a counsel?
Mrs. PAINE. That is all.
Mr. JENNER. At no time during either of these conversations did he deny that he was in any way involved in this situation?
Mrs. PAINE. He made no reference to why he was at the police station or why he needed a lawyer.
Mr. JENNER. He just assumed that you knew he was at the police station, did he?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right,
Mr. JENNER. That was your impression?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right,
Mr. JENNER. He didn't say where he was?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. He just started out saying what you now say he said?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. But in no respect did he say to you that he was entirely innocent of any charges that had been made against him?
Mrs. PAINE. He did not say that.
Mr. JENNER. Did he mention the subject at all of the assassination of the
President or the slaying of Officer Tippit?
Mrs. PAINE. No; he did not.
Mr. JENNER. What you have given is your best recollection of the entire conversation?
Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.
Representative FORD. This was Saturday afternoon, November 23?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Representative FORD. About what time?
Mrs. PAINE. Four, perhaps in the afternoon.
Representative FORD. Had you seen him the day before?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. McCLOY. Who was in the house with you when that call came in?
Mrs. PAINE. Just my children.
Mr. McCLOY. Just your children.
Representative FORD. While you were shopping and after the officers had come with a warrant, they went in the house, no one was in the house?
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Mrs. PAINE. For a portion of the time they were looking, no one was in the house.
Representative FORD. They were there alone?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. McCLOY. Did they indicate--were they still there when you got back?
Mrs. PAINE. No; they were not. Remember the door was locked.
Mr. McCLOY. Yes; the door was locked, that is what I gather. Do you know what they took on this occasion, or did they tell you what they were coming for?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I do not. Before I left they were leafing through books to see if anything fell out but that is all I saw.
Mr. McCLOY. All right.
Mrs. PAINE. In this interim then, I suppose I talked to some more news people but I want to get to the next important point which was that Lee called again.
Mr. JENNER. A third time?
Mrs. PAINE. I really call the first two one, but it was twice dialed.
Mr. JENNER. Fix the time, please.
Mrs. PAINE. It was around 9:30 in the evening.
Mr. JENNER. Who was home? Was your husband there on that occasion?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall.
Mr. JENNER. Was anyone else other than your children and yourself in your home at the time of the receipt of the call in the evening?
Mrs. PAINE. It could only have been Michael. I would remember someone else.
Mr. JENNER. But you have no definite recollection that even he was present?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. All right. The phone rang, you answered it.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you recognize the voice?
Mrs. PAINE. I recognized the voice.
Mr. JENNER. Whose was it?
Mrs. PAINE. It was Lee Oswald's.
Mr. JENNER. What did he say and what did you say?
Mrs. PAINE. He said, "Marina, please," in Russian.
Mr. JENNER. Please, Mrs. Paine, did he speak to you in English in the conversations in the afternoon or in Russian?
Mrs. PAINE. He spoke in English the entire conversation.
Mr. JENNER. The two in the afternoon?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, however, he resorted to Russian, did he?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. He planned to speak to Marina.
Mr. JENNER. I beg your pardon?
Mrs. PAINE. He planned to speak to Marina, and this opening phrase was one he normally used calling as he had many previous times to speak to her.
Mr. JENNER. He was under the assumption, you gathered, that Marina was in your home?
Mrs. PAINE. He certainly was.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mrs. PAINE. And I would be fairly certain that I answered him in English. I said she was not there, that I had a notion about where she might be, but I wasn't at all certain. That I would try to find out. He said, he wanted me to--he said he thought she should be at my house. He felt irritated at not having been able to reach her. And he wanted me to--
Mr. JENNER. Did he sound irritated?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; he sounded just a slight edge to his voice. And he wanted me to deliver a message to her that he thought she should be at my house.
Mr. JENNER. And he so instructed you?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. That is what he said?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. That was so far as I remember, the entire conversation.
Mr. JENNER. What response did you give to his direction?
Mrs. PAINE. I said I would try to reach her.
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Mr. JENNER. His direction--
Mrs. PAINE. And tell her his message.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mrs. PAINE. In the meantime, had you sought to reach John Abt?
Mrs. PAINE. I had, after 6 o'clock, thank you. I had dialed both numbers and neither answered.
Mr. JENNER. Neither answered. Was there any conversation between you and Lee Oswald in the evening conversation to which you reported to him your inability to reach Mr. Abt?
Mrs. PAINE. I do not specifically recall.
Mr. JENNER. Or the subject of Mr. Abt at all?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't want to get in, to rationalization. I can judge that something was said but I do not recall it specifically.
Mr. JENNER. Now, have you given the full extent of that conversation?
Mrs. PAINE. To the best of my recollection.
Mr. JENNER. At anytime during that conversation with Lee Harvey Oswald did he assert or intimate in any form or fashion his innocence of any charges against him?
Mrs. PAINE. No; he did not.
Mr. JENNER. Was the assassination mentioned at all?
Mrs. PAINE. No; it was not.
Mr. JENNER. Was the shooting or murder of Officer Tippit mentioned?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. You have given everything that was said in that conversation as best you are able to recall it at the moment?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right. I then tried the only thing I knew to do, to try to reach Marina. I had heard one of the FBI agents try to find her when he was at my home, had dialed the hotel where the Life people were staying, and asked to be put in contact with Marina and was told, I judge, because he repeated it and wrote it down. Executive Inn. Here I am turning detective in this small way.
Mr. JENNER. You also mentioned now for the first time there were FBI agents in your home?
Mrs. PAINE. That day.
Mr. JENNER. During the course of the day?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. I then dialed--
Mr. JENNER. You shook your head, did you shake your head in the affirmative?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; there were FBI agents in my home during the day. One I recalled made this telephone call. I was waiting to hear from Marina to see if she wanted to talk with me. I had no desire to press her or to attempt to reach her unless she wanted to reach me, but then with this message, I went ahead and dialed the Executive Inn and asked for Tommy Thompson, and Marguerite Oswald answered, and I said I would like to talk to Marina, and she said, "Well, Marina is in the bathroom," and I said to Marguerite that Lee had called me, that he wanted me to deliver a message to Marina, that he wished for her to be at my home, and Marguerite Oswald said, "Well, he is in prison. he don't know the things we are up against, the things we, have to face. What he wants doesn't really matter," which surprised me. And again I asked to speak to Marina and waited until I did speak to her and delivered the same message in Russian to her but there was no further
Mr. JENNER. What response did Marina make to the message that you conveyed to her?
Mrs. PAINE. She said she was very tired and wanted to get to bed, as I recall, and thought it was certainly best to stay there that night.
Mr. JENNER. Is that your best recollection?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. And I certainly agreed with her.
Mr. JENNER. Did she say anything in response to your delivery of Lee Oswald's message about Marina staying with you, of the possibility of her staying with you, say, the next day?
Mrs. PAINE. Nothing of that nature was said. I think I remember that we did discuss whether she had seen Lee during the day, and on that occasion
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it seems to me I learned that she had seen him around noon but I may be wrong about when I learned that. I knew she had seen him.
Mr. JENNER. Either in that conversation or any other conversation with Marina that you may have had, was the subject of Lee Oswald's attitude or
any comments he made mentioned?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Nobody reported to you anything about any conversation they might or did have with Lee Oswald either on the 22d or 23d or even on the 24th of November 1963?
Mrs. PAINE. No. I am of the impression I again tried the home telephone of John Abt on Sunday morning, but I am not certain, and there was no answer. That I certainly remember.
Mr. McCLOY. Did you ever reach Abt?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever attempt to report to Lee Oswald that you had been unable to reach Mr. Abt?
Mrs. PAINE. Not unless such transpired in our 9:30 conversation Saturday evening, but I made no effort to call the police station itself.
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me?
Mrs. PAINE. I made no effort to call the police station.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have at anytime any further conversations with Lee Oswald?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Other than what you have now related?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. McCLOY. Did you have any impression as to why he wanted Marina to come back with you? Was it in order to make her available for telephone calls from him or what?
Mrs. PAINE. What is distinctly my impression is that he thought she should be available. That it was she wasn't where he could find her that irritated him rather than that he thought this was the best place for her.
Representative FORD. Did you know of Mr. Abt or was this just--
Mrs. PAINE. I had never heard of Mr. Abt before.
Representative FORD. Never heard of him?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Senator COOPER. Did Marguerite Oswald explain any further, in the statement you said she made, about having too many obstacles or having obstacles or having troubles?
Mrs. PAINE. Are you referring to the statement on Friday night when she was at my home?
Senator COOPER. No. I think you said a few minutes ago when she went to the hotel you called her and told her what Lee Oswald had told you to tell Marina.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Senator COOPER. I think you said she said something about--
Mrs. PAINE. "Well, he doesn't understand the things we are up against or things of this nature." What I remember most clearly is that she didn't seem to care whether he was told the truth or not.
Mr. JENNER. What?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, that is perhaps a further statement, told the truth about--had it seemed to me a lack of respect on her part. She didn't care what his wishes were in the situation, in other words. And this sticks in my mind.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have any conversation with Robert Oswald on the 22d, subsequent to the time that you met him when he first come to the police station?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Did you on the 23d of November?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. The 24th?
Mrs. PAINE. I believe the only other time I saw Robert was some 3 weeks or more later when he came with two other people to pick up the rest of Marina's things.
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Mr. JENNER. Then from the 22d of November until he came sometime in December you had no conversation with him and you had not seen him?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. You had no contact at all with him?
Mrs. PAINE. That is my best recollection. Marina called me around noon on Sunday, the 24th. She said she was with the police, and, of course, this was said in Russian; I don't know whether she meant Secret Service or Irving Police or Dallas Police or what sort, but official. Her husband had already been shot at this time, so it was just after. He had been shot and I had the television on and I knew that.
Representative FORD. Did she know it?
Mrs. PAINE. I am certain she did. What makes me certain I can't recall definitely. I felt that she was confining herself in her conversation to the things she just had to say.
Senator COOPER. What did she say?
Mrs. PAINE. She was directing me how to find certain things she needed to have. A winter coat, things for the baby, a little purse with some money in it that she left either on top of the dresser or in a drawer in. the bedroom where they had stayed.
Mr. JENNER. Did she sound less than cordial--
Mrs. PAINE. Oh, no, she sounded, as I recall it, as a call from a woman who was doing her best to simply achieve the things she had to do but was under a tremendous strain.
Mr. JENNER. Was any mention made of the death of her husband?
Mrs. PAINE. He was not yet dead, he had been shot but he was not yet dead.
Mr. JENNER. Was any mention made between you in this conversation of the fact that Lee Oswald had been shot?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall such.
Mr. JENNER. You didn't mention it?
Mrs. PAINE. I did not tell her; no.
Mr. JENNER. Did you--it might be natural that you would express sympathy. Did you mention the subject at all, sympathetical or otherwise?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall mentioning the subject and as I say, I have this distinct feeling that she knew, and I knew she knew but what caused that, I can't identify.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have the feeling, if I may use some vernacular, that she was "under wraps" or rather she was bereft and just seeking to do
Mrs. PAINE. I had no feeling she was restraining herself from saying any particular things.
Mr. JENNER. Was under restraint?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. From some outside source?
Mrs. PAINE. I had no such feeling.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mrs. PAINE. I then, well, I should say there were one or two officers from the Irving Police Department there who were waiting to take the things that she directed--
Mr. JENNER. The police officers had already arrived at your home?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I guess I remembered it as virtually simultaneous. I might fill in, whether it is important to your inquiry or not, the moment the television announced that Lee Oswald had been shot, an Irving Police patrol car that had been going by my house and had hesitated in front, stopped and the officer got out carrying a rifle and came into my house, closed the curtains and said he was here to protect me. I later learned that he thought Mrs. Oswald, Marina Oswald, was in the house, and he had been directed by his car radio to come in, and he then closed all the blinds and peered out. And it was in the midst of this time that Marina called, so you see the officers were there already on other business.
Mr. JENNER. The officer was in your home when you talked with Marina?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; when Marina made the call.
Mr. JENNER. Did you say anything to the officers that Marina had called when you finished that conversation?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
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Mr. JENNER. You told them?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you tell them anything of the substance of the call?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; that I was to get some things and I think they had the same information separately a different way from a car radio or something at the same time, which was to put some things together to take to her. I did then pack one or two, or even three of the suit cases we talked about yesterday with baby things.
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, Mrs. Paine. You keep referring to one or two or three. Were there as many as three?
Mrs. PAINE. I think there were as many as three, including a very small, you night say, cosmetic case, only more, not as fancy as that. This was in her room, and I recall looking in it and seeing a family album of photographs and thinking this had better be in her hands, and included that along with clothes. I sent a child's toy, some things that I thought might be helpful to her in keeping her children happy as well as the individual items she had asked for specifically.
Mr. McCLOY. Did you sense any note of estrangement at all between you and Marina when she telephoned you
Mrs. PAINE. No; the situation was strained.
Mr. McCLOY. Strained because she hadn't reappeared, you mean?
Mrs. PAINE. No; because her husband had been shot.
Mr. McCLOY. No; I meant in your conversation with her was there any indication of any coolness between you?
Mrs. PAINE. No; none I detected.
Mr. JENNER. Had you noticed any when you were in the police station?
Mrs. PAINE. Oh, no.
Mr. JENNER. On the previous day?
Mrs. PAINE. Oh, no.
Mr. JENNER. None at all. So that up to the moment of this telephone conversation and after you finished you had no feeling there was any estrangement, any coolness, any change in attitude on the part of Marina toward you as a person?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. McCLOY. Have you felt any evidence of that since?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; and that has several parts to it and I could easily go into it now.
Mr. JENNER. I was going to ask her some general questions and Senator Cooper asked me if I would permit her just to go through the day as she has without, with a minimum of, interruptions so that you and he might, and Representative Ford, might ask some general questions before you left, so that is what I have done.
Mr. McCLOY. Have you completed your report?
Mrs. PAINE. That brings us to the 24th so that all else is really quite post the assassination.
Mr. McCLOY. There is one thing I would like to ask before I go, if I may, and that is your husband testified that several times he had moved this blanket when it was in the garage. Can you fix the date when he was in your house and working in the garage so that he was compelled to move the blanket? When did he come to
Mrs. PAINE. He normally came on Friday evening. He would sometimes come on a Sunday afternoon, and either of those times could have been times that he had worked in the garage.
Mr. McCLOY. That was all through September, October?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; September, October; yes.
Mr. McCLOY. But when he had been working there he never mentioned to you any--about the existence of this blanket, package which he had been compelled to move?
Mrs. PAINE. No. That didn't come up until after the assassination.
Mr. McCLOY. It didn't come up until after the assassination.
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, you are seeking to refresh your recollection from what document, please?
Mrs. PAINE. I am looking at a calendar to see if there is anyway that I can tell when Michael was in the house.
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Mr. JENNER. That is Commission exhibit number what?
Mrs. PAINE. 401, But it has not helped me in refreshing my memory.
Mr. McCLOY. Did you have contacts with the FBI and if so what were they before the assassination?
Mrs. PAINE. An FBI agent was out, I have learned since, on November 1.
I made no note of the day for myself. Sat down and talked in a relaxed way and for sometime in my living room. He said that the FBI liked to make it plain to people who have been in this country sometime, immigrated from an iron curtain country if they were experiencing any blackmail pressure from their home country, that they were welcome, and invited to discuss it with the FBI if they so choose.
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, Marina was present?
Mrs. PAINE. Marina was present.
Mr. JENNER. Did she overhear?
Mrs. PAINE. I am not certain--I tried to translate some of this conversation, I am not certain how good my translation was or how well I conveyed it, or even if I conveyed it to her.
Mr. JENNER. But you do recall translating some of the conversation to her?
Mrs. PAINE. I do recall translating some of the conversation indeed.
Mr. JENNER. Were you at times asked to address Marina to convey something that the FBI agent asked you to convey to her and then to translate in the reverse to him?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall anything as formal as that; no. The agent and I conversed some in English. He said, for instance, that, well he was interested in knowing if Lee Oswald lived here. I told him he did not, that he had a room in town; he asked if I knew where the room was and I said I did not. He asked if he was working and I said yes, and that he was working at the Texas School Book Depository. I haven't gone over any of this yet, it must have been in conversation with you.
Mr. JENNER. You testified to this yesterday afternoon?
Mrs. PAINE. I thought I did. It sounds familiar.
Mr. McCLOY. I just wanted to fix for my own benefit the number of times you saw FBI agents prior to the assassination in the company of Marina.
Mr. JENNER. There was a succeeding date?
Mrs. PAINE. There was a succeeding date which again I have been told by the FBI was November 5, the first time.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall it was a few days after the first man came?
Mrs. PAINE. I recall--
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall it was in your home?
Mrs. PAINE. I recall it was in the early part of the week.
Mr. JENNER. Did the same gentleman call?
Mrs. PAINE. The same gentleman. He had someone else along.
Mr. JENNER. That was Mr. Hosty, the gentleman whom you now have in mind?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I now know his name as Hosty.
Mr. McCLOY. From that you knew that the FBI was still interested in the activity of Oswald?
Mrs. PAINE. Oh, indeed.
Mr. McCLOY. That is what I want to bring out. I think that is all I have, the questions I have.
Are you going to take up later this estrangement as to how it developed?
Mr. JENNER. Yes; I shall do that this afternoon. Representative Ford has afforded me a list of subjects upon which to make inquiry and I will do so this afternoon. Perhaps Representative Ford and Senator Cooper, you would have some questions of this lady before we adjourn for the luncheon period?
Senator COOPER. Are you going to continue this afternoon?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Senator COOPER. I will postpone mine until this afternoon. I think Mr. McCloy and Congressman Ford have to go.
Representative FORD. Mr. Jenner, I will give you these questions and use those, if any, that are other than what you planned to use yourself. I am a little interested and I would like to hear you tell it, if I could, Mrs. Paine, how much did you know about the finances of Lee and Marina?
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Mrs. PAINE. It seemed to me they lived on a very small budget. In March of the year, at either the first or second visit with her, she told me she lived :on something under, around $200 a month and this was more than they had been, because they had just finished paying a debt that they had incurred for their passage to this country and they were feeling rich on $200 a month, and
I could see she was a good planner in what she bought. I could see they seldom, if ever, bought clothes for themselves or even for June. In the fall then Lee never volunteered or gave any money for the cost of her being at my house. He did on one occasion buy a few things at the grocery store for, at Marina's request, which he paid for, and on another occasion I was aware that he had given her some money to buy shoes. Did I mention this previously?
Representative FORD. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Yesterday afternoon you did; yes.
Representative FORD. But even after he gained employment at the Texas School Book Depository and was being paid he never gave her any money for her to contribute to you?
Mrs. PAINE. No: he did not.
Representative FORD. Did Marina ever express any concern about this?
Mrs. PAINE. Periodically she expressed her embarrassment at having to receive always from me. I tried to convince her how useful and helpful it was to me to have her conversation, but I never felt I had convinced her of that. I would have to say I am guessing that she hoped Lee would contribute. It would have been like her to think that he should.
Mr. JENNER. You gather that from the fact that she did raise the subject occasionally?
Mrs. PAINE. Just from the fact that she raised her embarrassment? Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Representative FORD. I think that is all now. Mr. Jenner, you can use those to supplement or as you see fit during the interrogation this afternoon. Thank you.
Mr. McCLOY. I have no more questions.
I would like to say. this though, perhaps, Mrs. Paine, that you understand we are not trying to punish anybody here. We are not.
Mrs. PAINE. I do understand.
Mr. McCLOY. This is not a court of law. We are trying to get at the facts.
Anything that you can contribute before you complete your testimony which would help us to get the facts we would like to receive, whether it be in the form of hunches or anything that you have, and you must not, I suggest that you don't, assume that merely because we haven't examined you on a particular fact that if there is anything that you do have in mind that you advance it and volunteer it for the benefit of the further security of the country.
Mrs. PAINE. I have tried very hard to think of the things that I thought would be useful to you, especially as we had so little time in advance of testifying to help me recall in thinking about it.
Mr. JENNER. May I say, Mr. McCloy, that Mrs. Paine yesterday and the day before, when I had an opportunity to talk with her, she did volunteer several matters of which we had no notice whatsoever. For example, the telephone calls by Lee Harvey Oswald to her, we had not known of that. And the existence of the curtain rods.
Mr. McCLOY. Anything that is in the background that you have--
Mrs. PAINE. I did want to amend my testimony of yesterday in one small particular. I spoke, indeed, during the testimony I recalled this incident of Lee having gotten into my car, started it, and did the driving from my home to the parking lot where we practiced, pretty much over my objection in a sense but I did not object strongly enough. I said this was about three blocks. That would appear that it was walking distance. It was longer than that.
If you have someone out there in time, why I could go with the person to show just exactly what the distance was.
Representative FORD. What was his reaction when you objected? First, was your objection just oral, was it strong, was it admonition, of what kind?
Mrs. PAINE. I felt that, and this is what you are getting at too and I think something we haven't yet discussed, is the matter of what kind of person this
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was or how I reacted to the kind of person he was. He seemed to me prickly, all sharp points and edgy, and I wished he could be more relaxed and more at ease. I didn't want to confront him with a statement of, "Lee, I didn't want you to start this car and take it yourself", so I simply said, "my father is an insurance man and he certainly would not want me to be permitting you to drive in the street when you don't even have a learner's permit yet, and I will certainly drive it home."
From the time I had first known him he had changed in his attitude toward me, I felt. I felt in the spring he expected to be disliked, that he carried a shell of proud disdain around him to protect himself from human contact, and this was falling away from him at my home.
Mr. JENNER. In the fall you mean?
Mrs. PAINE. In the fall of the year, in October and November. He began to appear much more at ease, and as if he had some confidence in how he would be treated. It is a whole subject really.
Representative FORD. Can you give us a little more information on what you said to him and what he, or how he responded in this incident involving the car?
Mrs. PAINE. I would say he clearly wanted to do the driving and to drive in the street. I felt that this, my not permitting him to, was one of the things that was helping to get him to the office where he could get a learner's permit, and he was eager to be driving, and to learn to drive on the street.
Representative FORD. Did he just slough off, so to speak, your admonition that he shouldn't drive?
Mrs. PAINE. I didn't make it a requirement that he stop right there so he didn't have to stop.
Representative FORD. You just suggested it might be better?
Mrs. PAINE. I just made it clear I was uncomfortable and on the way home I would drive.
Mr. McCLOY. There is one thing we haven't had testimony about, I imagine, except implicitly.
It is alleged that Lee possessed a .38 caliber revolver. Do you, in the light of hindsight, perhaps, do you have any feeling now that he was secreting that weapon on your premises?
Mrs. PAINE. I had no idea that it was there or ever was there.
Mr. McCLOY. Nothing now makes you feel that it was there other than the finding of the rifle?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Representative FORD. Thank you very much, Mrs. Paine.
Senator COOPER. The Commission will recess until 2 o'clock today.
(Whereupon, at 12:20 p.m., the Commission recessed.)
Afternoon Session
TESTIMONY OF RUTH HYDE PAINE RESUMED
The President's Commission reconvened at 2 p.m.
The CHAIRMAN. We will start now. We will continue until Senator Cooper comes and then he will preside the rest of the afternoon. I will be busy with Mr. Rankin some of the time.
Mr. JENNER. Thank you, Mr. Chief Justice.
Mrs. Paine, this morning I was seeking to qualify and introduce in evidence Commission Exhibit 425, which, at the time I had it in my hand, consisted of one page. You called my attention to the fact that it was a letter dated October 14, 1963, to your mother by you in your handwriting, but that you had only given me the first page or sheet, which consists front and reverse of two pages. Then you tendered me the second page or sheet, and indicated some reluctance about the need for its use in this connection.
During the noon recess you have afforded me the possession of the second page, and my recollection is you have voiced no objection to its introduction in evidence.
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Mrs. PAINE. I have no objection to its introduction. It refers just to personal matters, but if you don't have it, you will have to wonder what it is. It is better not to wonder.
Mr. JENNER. Yes. And it does give the full context of the really pertinent statements that you made in the first two pages and to which you made allusion yesterday in your testimony.
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. I direct your attention to the second sheet, the first of which is numbered three and the reverse side numbered four. Is the handwriting on both of those sheets yours?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes it is.
Mr. JENNER. And it is the third and fourth pages of the letter to which you
referred yesterday and again this morning, Commission Exhibit No. 425?
Mrs. PAINE. It is.
Mr. JENNER. And that page is in the same condition now as when--that is pages three and four, as when--you dispatched the entire letter to your mother?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chief Justice, I offer Commission Exhibit No. 425 in evidence. It has been heretofore marked.
The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.
(Commission Exhibit No. 425 was marked and received in evidence.)
Mr. JENNER. There have been marked as Commission's exhibits in this series 451 and 453 to 456, a series of five colored photographs purporting to be photographs of one Curtis LaVerne Crafard, taken on the 28th day of November 1963.
Mrs. Paine would you be good enough to look at each of those, and after you have looked at them, I wish to ask you a question.
Mrs. PAINE. I have looked at them all.
Mr. JENNER. Calling on your recollection of the physiognomy and appearance of Lee Oswald, do you detect a resemblance between the man depicted in those
photographs, the exhibit numbers of which I have given, and Lee Oswald?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I do.
Mr. JENNER. To the best of your present recollection, do you recall whether you
have ever seen the person whose features are reflected on those photographs?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I have not seen him.
The CHAIRMAN. May I see those, please?
Mrs. PAINE. Should I say that one picture in particular struck me as looking similar to Lee?
Mr. JENNER. Yes. When the Chief Justice has concluded his examination I will have you pick out that one in particular. Thank you, sir. When you select it will you give the exhibit number which appears on the reverse side?
Mrs. PAINE. Exhibit No. 453. Clearly the shoulders are broader than with Lee, but it is a quality about the face that recalls Oswald to my mind.
Mr. JENNER. And the jacket?
Mrs. PAINE. And the attire.
Mr. JENNER. The attire that is shown on the exhibit which is the first one you have before you, what is the number of that?
Mrs. PAINE. Exhibit 451.
Mr. JENNER. I asked you to describe Lee Oswald, his general attire. Did he normally wear a zipper jacket of the character shown on that exhibit?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And referring to the other photographs, you say that man's attire is similar to that Lee Oswald normally effected and employed.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. It certainly is.
Mr. JENNER. I offer Commission Exhibits Nos. 451 and 453 through 456.
The CHAIRMAN. They may be admitted.
(Commission Exhibits Nos. 451 and 453 through 465 were received in evidence. )
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, the Commissioners this morning, had especially directed questions to you evidencing their interest in FBI interviews.
The CHAIRMAN. Senator, will you now continue to preside please, so I will be free to work with Mr. Rankin a little this afternoon. I will remain here though for a while.
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Senator COOPER. Thank you.
Mr. JENNER: I gather the first interview by any FBI agent to your knowledge was on the first day of November 1963?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; and I don't really think interview is a fully accurate word.
Mr. JENNER. What word would you like to use?
Mrs. PAINE. I felt that the agent stopped to see whether the Oswalds, either Mrs. Oswald or Mr., were living there, and to make the acquaintance of me. He said that he had talked with my immediate neighbor, Mrs. Roberts, the previous time.
Mr. JENNER. The pronoun you are using refers to the FBI agent.
Mrs. PAINE. He, the FBI agent.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. PAINE. Said that he had inquired of my next door neighbor, Mrs. Roberts, whether the Oswalds lived here, and she had said that she didn't know the last name but knew that the wife of the family was living there, and that there had just been a baby girl born, and that the husband came out some week ends.
Mr. JENNER. Is this what the agent told you?
Mrs. PAINE. No, the neighbor told me.
Mr. JENNER. I see. All right.
Mrs. PAINE. And I judged he wanted to find out directly.
Mr. JENNER. Had you finished?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Have you subsequently learned the name of the gentleman who interviewed you or conversed with you?
Mrs. PAINE. I have subsequently learned his name, yes. It was James Hosty.
The CHAIRMAN. What was the name?
Mrs. PAINE. James Hosty, H-O-S-T-Y.
Mr. JENNER. I don't wish you to give that full interview again because you touched on it yesterday and again at greater length this morning. But I do wish to ask you with respect to that interview, did you give Agent Hosty the telephone numbers that you had received from Lee Oswald as to where he might be reached in Dallas?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I didn't. He asked me if I knew where Lee lived. I did think of these phone numbers, but
Mr. JENNER. During the course of the.
Mrs. PAINE. Or later.
Mr. JENNER. Of the interview?
Mrs. PAINE. At least between that time and the time he came again, but I have been impressed with what I have now concluded was a mistaken impression I have which effected my behavior; namely, that the FBI was in possession of a great deal of information, or so I thought, and certainly would find it very easy to find out where Lee Oswald was living. I really didn't believe they didn't know or needed to find out from me. This is a feeling stemming from my understanding of the difficulties they faced working in a free society. I would behave quite differently now, but I have learned a lot from this particular experience.
Mr. JENNER. Now was there a subsequent interview?
Mrs. PAINE. There was an interview a few days later, yes, interview to the extent that he came to the door, walked in the door. We didn't as much as sit down. But he asked again about an address. I had none. I did say that I expected
Mr. JENNER. An address as to where Lee resided?
Mrs. PAINE. In town where he resided. I did say that I expected that when Marina moved into an apartment with Lee again, as we all thought would occur, that I would be in contact with her, and that I would be perfectly Willing to give him information as to that address when I had such, but that my contact was with her and therefore through that way I would have the address.
Mr. JENNER. Were you again interviewed by telephone or otherwise by any FBI agent prior to November 22, 1963.
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Mrs. PAINE. I have mentioned two times.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. PAINE. And that was all.
Mr. JENNER. That was all. So up to the time of the assassination, the only interviews with the FBI to your knowledge were on the first?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. You will recall your testimony yesterday, Mrs. Paine, of the incident in which a telephone call was made by you at the request of Marina using the telephone number that has been left with you by Lee Oswald, and your inability to locate him, in fact the person who answered the telephone stated that there was no Lee Oswald living there. Do you recall your testimony on that score?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you report that to the FBI?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I did not.
Mr. JENNER. You also recall your testimony with respect to the draft of the proposed letter which I think is before you, and that is Commission exhibit number?
Mrs. PAINE. 130.
Mr. JENNER. Did you call the FBI and advise them of that incident?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I did not.
Mr. JENNER. And without seeking to have you repeat your testimony, were your reasons for not doing so the same as the one that you gave when I asked you whether you had given Agent Hosty the telephone number?
Mrs. PAINE. No; not identical. Certainly I didn't think that they had any information of such a letter, whereas I did think they knew where he lived or could easily find out, and of course they could also come to the house and
see him at my house as he came on weekends.
Mr. JENNER. You did say to the FBI?
Mrs. PAINE. I did.
Mr. JENNER. That he would be at your home on weekends.
Mrs. PAINE. And I judged by the fact they didn't come that this was not someone they were terribly worried about talking to immediately. Both this letter, and the telephone conversation really, the one that followed it, where Marina reported to me that he was using a different name, were something new and different in the situation that made me feel this was a man I hadn't accurately perceived before.
I have said my impression in reading the letter was--I have said something similar to this that of a small boy wanting to get in good with the boys, trying to use words that he thought would please. I didn't know to whom he addressed himself, but it struck me as something out of Pravda in his terminology. And I knew, as I have testified, that several of the statements in it were flatly false, and I wondered about the rest, and then when I heard that he was using a different name, that again was indication of a great disregard for truth on the part of Lee Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. Now what time of day did the interview on November 1 take place?
Mrs. PAINE. Afternoon.
Mr. JENNER. Late?
Mrs. PAINE. Middle of the afternoon. My memory is there were no children around which means it was nap time.
Mr. JENNER. It couldn't have been along about 5 o'clock in the afternoon?
Mrs. PAINE. It was a Friday, wasn't it?
Mr. JENNER. Yes, it was.
Mrs. PAINE. And he probably came out that Friday.
Mr. JENNER. You were just telling the agent, you had told the agent, had you not, that he came on weekends.
Mrs. PAINE. I did.
Mr. JENNER. And he arrived on Fridays?
Mrs. PAINE. I did.
Mr. JENNER. And this was a Friday?
Mrs. PAINE. It was, and you will recall yesterday----
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Mr. JENNER. And you did tell the agent that?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. It had to have been that session. I know I certainly told him, and it had to have been that time because the second meeting was very brief and had only to do with the address.
Mr. JENNER. And that was not on a Friday?
Mrs. PAINE. No; it was not.
Mr. JENNER. Was anything said about the agent remaining because Lee Oswald would be along, he was expected?
Mrs. PAINE. No. May I interject here to recall to your mind that as I looked through my calendar trying to find if there was any time, any weekend other than the weekend of October 12, that Lee arrived on a Saturday instead of a Friday, it had to be that weekend by deduction. And I don't recall whether he arrived that Friday evening.
I do recall when he arrived we told him about this meeting and I gave him the piece of paper on which I had written Mr. Hosty's name and the normal telephone number for the FBI in Dallas.
Mr. JENNER. But you recall no conversation. May I suggest this to you as possibly refreshing your recollection. That on that Friday afternoon, which I may say to you now, Mrs. Paine, is reported by Agent Hosty as having taken place on November 1, and he has made his report accordingly, was there any discussion of a suggestion that Lee Oswald would be out that weekend, that is either that you told him he would not be or that he would be, that you would expect him?
Mrs. PAINE. My recollection is that I said he came out here on weekends and he could be seen then.
Mr. JENNER. Go ahead.
Mrs. PAINE. And I have no recollection of ever thinking he was not going to come that weekend.
Mr. JENNER. You have also testified that you were also advised in advance when he was coming?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. He asked permission. So if he were coming on the 1st of November, that very day, you would have been advised in advance that he as coming, would you not, according to your testimony.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I would think so.
Mr. JENNER. But you don't recall saying anything to Agent Hosty that he was coming that evening, at least that you expected him to be there.
Mrs. PAINE. I may have. I don't specifically recall.
Mr. JENNER. But you do have a recollection that you told him at least generally that Lee Oswald came to your home on weekends?
Mrs. PAINE. I feel certain of that.
Mr. JENNER. In any event, Agent Hosty did not remain?
Mrs. PAINE. He did not remain left. It was earlier in the afternoon.
Mr. JENNER. You are inclined to think the interview took place earlier in the afternoon, that is prior to 5 o'clock?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; more likely 2 to 3 or 3:30.
Mr. JENNER. During the slumber hours of your children?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Now you are certain in your own mind that you had no interview or no FBI agent interviewed you prior to November 1?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. And if an FBI agent did interview you, you were not aware that you were being interviewed?
Mrs. PAINE. That is absolutely correct.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have a recollection that on October 29, that would be 2 days before the Friday session that you have testified about, that some sales person or purporting to be a sales person or a drummer or somebody came to your door and made some inquiries of you about the Oswalds?
Mrs. PAINE. October 29 is a Tuesday. I don't recall any such encounter. Written on my calendar is "Dal" for Dallas "Junie" meaning we went to a clinic in Dallas in the morning. It doesn't say about the rest of the day.
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Mr. JENNER. Now when you reported to Lee Oswald the name of the agent and the telephone number, you put that on a slip of paper.
Mrs. PAINE. I did.
Mr. JENNER. And handed the slip of paper to him?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did.
Mr. JENNER. Was there any conversation between you then as to FBI agents having at any time prior thereto interviewed Lee Oswald.
Mrs. PAINE. There may have been. I am certainly clear that I was told probably by Marina that he had been interviewed, or by both of them, that he had been interviewed in Fort Worth when they first returned from the Soviet Union. This I knew before the time of the assassination.
Mr. JENNER. Did Marina say whether she had been interviewed in Fort Worth?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. This was only that Lee Oswald had been interviewed at Fort Worth?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. But you recall no conversation in which either Lee or Marina said or intimated to you that they had, either of them had been interviewed either in New Orleans or in Dallas.
Mrs. PAINE. Nothing was mentioned of having been interviewed in New Orleans or Dallas.
Mr. JENNER. You made some reference yesterday, and I want to keep it in context, to the license number of the FBI agent.
Mrs. PAINE. Not in testimony. Did I?
Mr. JENNER. I thought you had.
Mrs. PAINE. Perhaps.
Mr. JENNER. It would be well if we went into that. Would you please recite what that incident was?
Mrs. PAINE. I am confused by the question.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall the matter of the taking of the agent's license number from his automobile?
Mrs. PAINE. I was told by Agent Hosty well after the assassination that they had found in Oswald's room in Dallas a slip of paper which included not only Hosty's name and the telephone number of the FBI in Dallas, but also the license plate number with one letter incorrect, one number incorrect, of the car that Hosty had driven out. This was the first I had heard anything about their having been a license plate.
Mr. JENNER. You did not take
Mrs. PAINE. Number taken down.
Mr. JENNER. You did not take the number down and place it on that piece of paper?
Mrs. PAINE. I did not.
Mr. JENNER. Or give it to Lee Harvey Oswald or to Marina?
Mrs. PAINE. I did not. I was never at any time interested in the license plate number. I wondered why anyone else would have been.
Mr. JENNER. In any event, the first you heard of the license number was after the assassination?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Under the circumstances you have now related?
Mrs. PAINE. I might describe the second meeting with Mr. Hosty a little more in detail.
Mr. JENNER. That is November 1?
Mrs. PAINE. That is the only way I can guess as to how this license plate number was in Oswald's room.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mrs. PAINE. Hosty and I, and a second agent was with him, I don't know the name, stood at the door of my home and talked briefly, as I have already described, about the address of Oswald in Dallas. Marina was in her room feeding the baby, or busy some way. She came in just as Hosty and I were closing the conversation, and I must say we were both surprised at her entering.
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He then took his leave immediately, and as he has told me later, drove to the end of my street which curves and then drove back down Fifth Street.
Mr. JENNER. Now you are reporting something agent Hosty has told you?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Were you aware of the fact that he drove to the end of the street?
Mrs. PAINE. Not at that time, no. I was aware that he had parked his car out in front of my house. My best judgment is that the license plate was not visible, however, while it was parked; not visible from my house.
Mr. JENNER. Did you see the car?
Mrs. PAINE. I saw the car.
Mr. JENNER. Parked?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. I noticed it particularly. Because the first time he had come on the 1st of November, he had parked down the street, and he made reference to the fact that they don't like to draw attention for the neighborhood to any interviews that they make, and in fact my neighbor also commented when she had talked with him a few days previously that his car was parked down the street and wasn't in front of my house. So I noticed the change that he had parked directly in front. But to the best of my recollection, in back
of the Oldsmobile of my husband's.
Mr. JENNER. Did you attempt to look to see what his license number was?
Mrs. PAINE. What?
Mr. JENNER. Did you attempt to look at his automobile to see what the license number was?
Mrs. PAINE. No; nor could I have seen it from my house without my glasses on. I am nearsighted, and I was not wearing them.
Mr. JENNER. But the license plate would have been visible to anybody walking down the street or who desired?
Mrs. PAINE. Walking down the street, yes.
Mr. JENNER. Or looking out your garage.
Mrs. PAINE. I don't think so, because to the best of my recollection, an Oldsmobile that my husband bought was also in front of the house, so that the cars would have been close at the bumpers.
Mr. JENNER. So the license plates would have been screened by the Oldsmobile?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Have you given us all you have in mind with respect to the incidents?
Mrs. PAINE. There is one other thing which is a little different, and I had forgotten it but it is recalled by our conversation. I have already said that I said to Agent Hoary that if in the future Marina and Lee are living together, and I know, or I have correspondence with them I would live him his address if he wished it. Then it was the next day or that evening or sometime shortly thereafter Marina said to me while we were doing dishes that she felt their address was their business. Now my understanding is she doesn't understand English well. The word in Russian for address is "adres," and she made it plain that this was a matter of privacy for them. This surprised me. She had never spoken in this way to me before, and I didn't see that it made any difference.
Mr. JENNER. Did this arise out of, or in connection with, or was it stimulated, by any discussion between the two of you of the visit of Agent Hosty?
Mrs. PAINE. So far as I could see, it arose separately.
Mr. JENNER. So far as you can recall?
Mrs. PAINE. As far as I can recall.
Mr. JENNER. Did you make any effort to obtain Lee Oswald's address so that you could give it to the FBI?
Mrs. PAINE. No. As I have testified, I really thought they had it.
Mr. JENNER. When you made the telephone call to Lee Oswald and learned he apparently was living under an alias, and certainly in that weekend immediately preceding the assassination when the argument occurred between Marina and Lee Oswald on which he upbraided her for having made the call, you still weren't activated to call the FBI and tell them that he was living under an assumed name, is that true?
Mrs. PAINE. That is true. I did expect to give this copy which I had made
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of his "Dear Sirs," letter which you have marked Commission Exhibit 103 to the FBI agent at the next meeting.
Mr. JENNER. At the time he called if he did call?
Mrs. PAINE. I thought he would.
Mr. JENNER. During the interview on November 1, you have testified that Marina was present some of the time.
Mrs. PAINE. She was present virtually all of that time.
Mr. JENNER. All of the time?
Mrs. PAINE. And virtually none of the next time.
Mr. JENNER. Virtually none.
Mrs. PAINE. Just came in at the end, on the 5th.
Mr. JENNER. Was she out in the yard? Did you get that impression any time during that second interview?
Mrs. PAINE. No; she had to have been in her room the entire time.
Mr. JENNER. Are you firm, reasonably firm that Marina, even if she desired to learn of the license number on Agent Hosty's car, that she could not have seen or detected it while remaining in the house?
Mrs. PAINE. She might possibly--oh, I wouldn't say that. It is conceivable, depending on where it was parked, it is conceivable that she could have seen it from the bedroom window.
Mr. JENNER. You are holding up exhibit number?
Mrs. PAINE. 430.
Mr. JENNER. And you are pointing to what on that exhibit?
Mrs. PAINE. The window of the bedroom which she occupied, which is the southeast bedroom of my house, looks directly out to where I thought the car
was parked. From that position, if I am correct about where the car was parked, she couldn't have seen the license plate, but she could have seen it if as Agent Hosty described to me later she saw it while the car was moving along the street.
Mr. JENNER. When he pulled away?
Mrs. PAINE. When he pulled away and then he came back and went the other way.
Mr. JENNER. So it is possible that she may have seen the license?
Mrs. PAINE. It is possible.
Mr. JENNER. This date that you are now talking about when he parked the car in front of your house, that was November 5?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, it was.
Mr. JENNER. Whereas on November 1, he parked the car down the street.
Mrs. PAINE. That is right. I might add a little more detail here if you want it. Marina and I talked about whether to tell Lee that the FBI had been out a second time, and the 5th was a Tuesday. We didn't see Lee until the 8th. She said to me that he had been upset by the FBI's coming out and inquiring about him, and he felt it was interference with his family. And I said there is no reason for him to be upset, or I think conveyed that idea. But the question of whether to tell him was settled by Marina who told him on Friday evening, the 8th, ,and then Lee inquired of me about that meeting, and he said--I don't think I have yet said for the record--he said to me then he felt the FBI was inhibiting his activities. This is what he said. Has this been said?
Mr. JENNER. Not yet.
Mrs. PAINE. All right, I have said it. I said to him "Don't be worried about it. You have your rights to your views, whether they are popular or not." But I could see that he didn't take that view but rather was seriously bothered by their having come out and inquired about him. At this time or another, I don't recall certainly, I asked whether he was worried about losing his job, and he was.
Mr. JENNER. Did he say so, Mrs. Paine?
Mrs. PAINE. I recall particularly a telephone conversation with him. On one of those in which he called out to talk to Marina, I judge, and perhaps she was busy still changing a baby and I talked. I don't recall the exact circumstances but I do recall it, and I said to him if his views, not any references now to the FBI or their interest in him, but if his political views were interfering with his ability to hold a job, that this might be a matter of interest to the
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American Civil Liberties Union, that he should in our country have a right to unpopular views or any other kind.
This I believe was after he had been to an American Civil Liberties Union meeting with my husband, that meeting having been October
Mr. JENNER. What was his response?
Mrs. PAINE. He was pleased, I felt. He felt in a sense reassured. And indeed I think his response was to join, because it was later reported in the press that he had, which makes me think that this telephone conversation was quite close to the time of the assassination.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine--
Mrs. PAINE. I am putting in a lot of guesswork.
Mr. JENNER. Am I interrupting you?
Mrs. PAINE. No. It is just that I wonder if you want me to dredge this deeply into things I cannot be absolutely certain about.
Mr. JENNER. We would like your best recollection. We do hesitate about speculation.
Mrs. PAINE. Indeed.
Mr. JENNER. When we are asking about factual matters. We do ask for your speculation occasionally, but to try to make it quite deliberate when we are asking for that rather than for facts. Have you now stated all that comes to mind with respect to the advice to Lee Oswald of the visit of FBI agents or any discussion with Mr. Oswald at any time while he visited your home during this period in 1963 prior to November 22 with respect to FBI agent visits?
Have you now exhausted your recollection on the subject?
Mrs. PAINE. I think one other thing. Agent Hosty asked me, and I am not certain which time, but more likely the second, since so far as I can recall Marina wasn't present, if I thought this was a mental problem, his words referring to Lee Oswald, and I said I didn't understand the mental processes of anyone who could espouse the Marxist philosophy, but that this was far different from saying he was mentally unstable or unable to conduct himself in normal society.
I did tell Lee that this question had been asked. He gave no reply, but more a scoffing laugh, hardly voiced.
Mr. JENNER. Have you now exhausted your recollection?
Mrs. PAINE. I have clearly exhausted it.
Senator COOPER. Who asked the question?
Mrs. PAINE. Hosty asked the question "Is this a mental problem?"
Senator COOPER. Did you ever hear Oswald express any anger toward either the agents or the FBI, as an agency?
Mrs. PAINE. He expressed distinct irritation that he was being bothered. That is how he looked upon it.
Senator COOPER. You said that you thought he was concerned about its effect upon his job, but did he express any emotion other than that?
Mrs. PAINE. And he was being inhibited in what he wanted to do.
Senator COOPER. Any irritation or anger because they had interviewed?
Mrs. PAINE. In tone of voice, yes.
Senator COOPER. What would it be like?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, irritated. He said, "They are trying to inhibit my activities."
Senator COOPER. Did he swear at all?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Senator COOPER. He used no language.
Mrs. PAINE. No; he didn't.
Senator COOPER. Did he raise the tone of his voice?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Senator COOPER. Did he show
Mrs. PAINE. Nothing more than an edge to his voice I would say.
Senator COOPER. Did he direct it against any individual FBI agent.
Mrs. PAINE. No; he didn't. I have one other recollection that possibly should be put in regarding the conversation with Agent Hosty the first time when Marina was present. We discussed many things, just as you would having coffee in the afternoon with a visitor, and--
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Mr. JENNER. Is this a discussion between you and Marina with the agent present or not present.
Mrs. PAINE. He was present.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mrs. PAINE. Discussion between the three of us.
Mr. JENNER. Thank you.
Mrs. PAINE. And I can't recall certainly who brought it up, but I think Marina asked of Hosty what did he think of Castro, and he said, "Well, he reads what is printed and from the view given in the American newspapers of Castro's activities and intentions, he certainly didn't like those intentions or actions."
And Marina expressed an opinion subsequently, but contrary, that perhaps he was not given much chance by the American press, or that the press was not entirely fair to him. This I translated.
Mr. JENNER. Is that the extent of it? Now have you exhausted your recollection?
Mrs. PAINE. I hope so. I have exhausted myself.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, do you have another question?
Senator COOPER. Not on this subject.
Mr. JENNER. I would like to return to your furnishing of the name and the telephone number of. Agent Hosty. In Commission Exhibit No. 18, which is in evidence, which was Lee Oswald's diary--by the way, may I hand the exhibit to the witness, Chairman?
Senator COOPER. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. This is an address book. In any event it is in evidence as Exhibit No. 18. Have you ever seen that booklet before?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Examine the outside of the booklet. Have you seen this?
Mrs. PAINE. I have never seen this.
Mr. JENNER. You have never seen that in Lee Oswald's possession?
Mrs. PAINE. I have never seen it at all.
Mr. JENNER. There is an entry as follows. Would you help me Mr. Redlich.
Would you read it please?
Mr. REDLICH. "November 1, 1963 FBI agent James P. Hosty."
Mrs. PAINE. Junior?
Mr. REDLICH. Just above the word "Hosty" appears in parentheses "RI 1-1121," and underneath "'James P. Hosty" appears "MU 8605." Underneath that is "1114 Commerce Street Dallas." I would just like to correct upon the record that the phone number originally read is "RI-11211."
Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. What is that phone number?
Mrs. PAINE. That phone number I recognize from my own use of it is to the FBI in Dallas, my use since the assassination.
Mr. JENNER. And the series of numbers rather than phone numbers, series of numbers "MU 8605."
Mrs. PAINE. Is not known to me.
Mr. JENNER. What is the system of license plate numbering and lettering employed in Texas?
Mrs. PAINE. I am not acquainted with any particular system. They use
both letters and numbers.
Mr. JENNER. I call your attention in connection with this entry that it is dated November 1, 1963, and there does appear in it the license number.
Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes.
Mr. JENNER. Your recollection is firm that you didn't furnish it?
Mrs. PAINE. May I point out also that he must have put this down after November 1st, or at least that evening. He could not have written it down with--
Mr. JENNER. It had to be after the fact as you furnished him the name.
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. And the agent's address.
Mrs. PAINE. I would think he could as well have added--you don't want my thinking--this number.
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Mr. JENNER. The reason I call that to your attention, Mrs. Paine, it still does not stimulate your recollection.
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Any differently than before. You did not furnish the license number.
Mrs. PAINE. I certainly did not. To the best of my recollection I did not put down the address either.
Mr. JENNER. Now during the course of that interview of November 5th, did you not say to Agent Hosty that Lee had visited at your home November 2 and 3?
Mrs. PAINE. It is entirely possible, likely.
Mr. JENNER. And in this connection I am at liberty to report to you that Agent Hosty's report is that you did advise him that Oswald had visited at your home on November 2 and November 3. Does that serve to refresh your recollection that you did so advise him?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall that.
Mr. JENNER. Now did you express an opinion to Agent Hosty that Oswald was "an illogical person?"
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, I did, in answer to his question was this a mental problem, as I have just described to you.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; that is all right. And did you also say to Agent Hosty that Oswald himself had "Admitted being a Trotskyite Communist."
Mrs. PAINE. Oh, I doubt seriously I said Trotskyite Communist. I would think Leninist Communist, but I am not certain.
Mr. JENNER. Do you remember making a remark of similar import?
Mrs. PAINE. Reference to Trotsky surprises me. I have come since the assassination to wonder if he had Trotskyite views. I have become interested in what such views are since the assassination.
Mr. JENNER. To the best of your recollection you don't recall making that comment?
Mrs. PAINE. I wouldn't think that I had the knowledge by which to make such a statement even.
Mr. JENNER. Now after this rationalization you have made, Mrs. Paine, it is your recollection that you did not make such a comment?
Mrs. PAINE. I can't recall. What was the second item that I told Hosty he had been out on the second and third? I am just trying to clarify here.
Mr. JENNER. You had told him that Lee Oswald had been at your home November 2 and 3, that you told him that Lee Oswald was an illogical person?
Mrs. PAINE. That is it.
Mr. JENNER. And third, that you told him that Oswald had admitted being a Trotskyite Communist.
Mrs. PAINE. I may have said that. I don't recall.
Mr. JENNER. You may have said the latter.
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall, that is right.
Mr. JENNER. It is possible that you did say it?
Mrs. PAINE. It is possible. I am surprised, however, by the word at that point.
Mr. JENNER. Now do you recall a telephone interview or call by Agent Hosty on the 27th of January 1964? Perhaps I had better put it this way to you.
Do you recall subsequent telephone calls after the assassination that you received from Agent Hosty, that you did receive such telephone calls?
Mrs. PAINE. I did, and visits also, at the house.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall he called you on the 27th of January 1964 and that he inquired whether you had given Lee Oswald the license number of his automobile when he had been at your home? You stated that you had not.
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
I would have thought that was a face to face interview but I don't recall.
Mr. JENNER. But you also told Agent Hosty on that occasion, "However, this license number could have easily been observed by Marina Oswald since her bedroom is located only a short distance from the street where this car would have been parked."
Mrs. PAINE. I doubt I said "easily."
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Mr. JENNER. But you could have said that the license number could have been observed by Marina from her bedroom?
Mrs. PAINE. My recollection of this, that it was not a telephone interview.
Mr. JENNER. Telephone or otherwise, there was an interview of you at which you made that statement, that Marina could have seen the license?
Mrs. PAINE. That Marina could have?
Mr. JENNER. You do recall the incident. You don't recall whether it was at your home or whether it was by telephone?
Mrs. PAINE. I certainly recall talking with Agent Hosty and on at least one occasion about how that license number got in Oswald's possession.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall a telephone interview by an FBI agent Lee, Ivan D. Lee on the 28th of December 1963?
Mrs. PAINE. The name is not familiar to me. A great many FBI agents--
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall an incident in which you reported to an FBI agent that you had just talked with a reporter from the Houston Post?
Mrs. PAINE. Right.
Mr. JENNER. You recall that?
Mrs. PAINE. I do.
Mr. JENNER. Now during the course of that interview, you made reference to a newspaper reporter, did you not?
Mrs. PAINE. I did. His name is Lonny Hudkins.
Mr. JENNER. Did you say that the reporter whom you have now identified had advised you that Lee Harvey Oswald's mother had been working for a party in Forth Worth during September and October 1962 as a practical nurse, and according to the reporter, Mrs. Oswald, mother of Lee Harvey Oswald, advised this party during her employment that her son was doing important anti-subversive work?
Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Would you please relate that incident so we will have the facts insofar as you participated in them stated of record?
Mrs. PAINE. I will. I would not have recalled the date, but I knew it to be toward the end of 1963. I was called on the telephone by Lonny Hudkins, whom I had never met, announced himself as from the Houston Post, said there was a matter of some importance that he wanted to talk with me about, could he come out to the house? And he then indicated the nature of what he wanted to talk about to the extent very accurately reported in what you have just read. I called the FBI really to see if they could advise me in dealing with this man. It struck me as a very unresponsible thing to print, and I wanted to be able to convince Hudkins of that fact. I was hopeful that they might be willing to
make a fiat denial to him, or in some way prevent the confusion that would have been caused by his printing this.
Now shall I go on to tell about the encounter which followed with Mr. Hudkins, and something of that content?
Mr. JENNER. I am a little at a loss. Why don't you start because I can't anticipate.
Mrs. PAINE. Whether it is important?
Mr. JENNER. You haven't related this to me. Are these statements you made to the FBI that you are about to relate?
Mrs. PAINE. If they asked. I don't recall specifically. I certainly recall that the content of the telephone conversation reported there is accurate and is in sum the conversation that then followed with Lonny Hudkins too, except that it doesn't say what I said in the situation.
Mr. JENNER. Did you report to the FBI that Mr. Hudkins had said to you that the primary purpose of seeing you was an effort to get some confirmation if possible of the possibility Oswald was actually working on behalf of the United States Government prior to the assassination?
Mrs. PAINE. I was aware that was his purpose.
Mr. JENNER. That you knew of no such situation, and ventured the opinion to the reporter that the story was wholly unlikely, that you could not imagine anyone having that much confidence in Oswald?
Mrs. PAINE. That is accurate. I went on to say that Mrs. Oswald senior, Mrs. Marguerite Oswald, could well have said to this matron a full year back
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and more that her son was doing important anti-subversive work for the government. This was 1962 he was talking about, but that this was her opinion or what she may have wished to have true. And I did not consider it terribly creditable, and said to him "You don't think you have a story here, do you?"
Mr. JENNER. You also recall
Mrs. PAINE. May I put in another point here?
Mr. JENNER. In connection with this subject matter?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mrs. PAINE. I called and the man to whom I talked, I don't know if it was Lee, or I think it was someone else who answered first, I am not certain at all.
Mr. JENNER. Odum?
Mrs. PAINE. Odum? It certainly was not Odum. I know him. But someone answered the phone and I told this to him, and perhaps it was Lee. He said to me in response to my inquiring "What shall I do, here is this man coming," he said "well you don't know anything of this nature do you?" I said, "No".
Then anything you might have to say is sheer conjecture on the subject?"
"Yes."
"Then you should certainly make that plain in talking with him."
Mr. JENNER. Did you do so?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I certainly did. And I felt as though I really shouldn't have bothered them. This was not of interest to them. But then I was called back later by the FBI on the same subject.
Mr. JENNER. And you reported that conversation, the subsequent call back by the FBI?
Mrs. PAINE. No. You have content of the first conversation I think there, isn't that so, or it might have been?
Mr. JENNER. There are a series, Mrs. Paine, that run in this order. The first was on December 28, 1963. The conversation occurred between you and an Agent Lee, and it was a telephone interview?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. I have asked You about that, and I have read from the report and you have affirmed that you so reported to the agent. And on the next day, December 29, 1963, you had a telephone conversation, whether you called or whether the agent called with Kenneth C. Howe.
Mrs. PAINE. What is his name?
Mr. JENNER. Kenneth C. Howe, on this same subject. I have questioned you about that, and I have read from the report, and you have affirmed as to that. Then on January 3, 1964, this apparently was an interview at your home by Agent Odum? Do you recall that?
Mrs. PAINE. Agent Odum has been out a great deal.
Mr. JENNER. In which you say, did you not, that this reporter Hudkins of the Houston Post newspaper in his contact with you on the previous Saturday, December 28 had stated that the FBI was foolish to deny that Agent Joseph Hosty, being a reference to the FBI agent we have been talking about today, had tried to develop Lee Harvey Oswald as an informant. You stated you had made no comment one way or the other to Hudkins regarding this remark, and furthermore that you knew that--
Mrs. PAINE. Would you please repeat that, that I stated?
Mr. JENNER. I will read it all to you then. You advised that Lonny Hudkins, the reporter of the Houston Post in his contact that he had with you on the previous Saturday, December 28, 1963, had stated to you that the FBI was foolish to deny that Agent Hosty had tried to develop Lee Harvey Oswald as an informant. Did you make that statement?
Mrs. PAINE. Not in just those terms.
Mr. JENNER. Did you make the further statement that you made no comment one way or the other to Hudkins regarding this remark of his to you? In order to get this in the proper posture, Mrs. Paine--
Senator COOPER. Do you understand the question?
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Mrs. PAINE. I understand what is said, but it doesn't check strictly with my recollection, that is the confusion.
Mr. JENNER. What the agent is reporting is your report of what Lonny Hudkins had said to you, and your report to the agent of your response to what Lonny Hudkins had said to you. Do we have it now in the proper posture?
Mrs. PAINE. This is by no means an accurate description of the conversation or my response.
Mr. JENNER. You don't have to accept this report, of course, Mrs. Paine. Tell us what occurred in that interview?
Mrs. PAINE. All right.
Mr. JENNER. What you said and what Agent Odum said to you.
Mrs. PAINE. Oh, I don't recall that so well. I was going to tell you what I said to Hudkins. I do recall this, and it may be the foundation for what appears in your report there. I made no comment on Mr. Hudkins saying that there was a Joe Hosty, and that this agent had been in contact with Oswald. I observed that Hudkins had inaccurate information.
Mr. JENNER. Didn't you tell the agent what this reporter had said to you that was inaccurate, to wit, that the reporter had stated to you that the FBI was foolish to deny that Agent Hosty had tried to develop Lee Harvey Oswald as an informant?
Mrs. PAINE. What is totally inaccurate is the following, that implies that I made no comment to Hudkins regarding such a remark.
Mr. JENNER. No please, that has not been suggested. I am trying to take this chronologically. Did you first report to the agent that Hudkins had said to you that the FBI was foolish to deny that Agent Joseph Hosty had tried to develop Lee Harvey Oswald as an informant.
Mrs. PAINE. Certainly what Hudkins said was of this nature.
Mr. JENNER. And you so reported to the agent?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Then did you make the further remark, which is what I think you are trying to say, that you made no comment one way or the other to Hudkins when he made that remark, his remark to you?
Mrs. PAINE. I made a great deal of comment and I will say what those comments were.
Mr. JENNER. You did to the reporter.
Mrs. PAINE. To the reporter, yes.
Mr. JENNER. Please say what you said, and did you report this to the FBI, Mr. Odum?
Mrs. PAINE. Inadequately clearly, judging from the---
Mr. JENNER. Why don't you do it this way?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes I reported it.
Mr. JENNER. Let us have first what you said to the FBI agent on the subject?
Mrs. PAINE. I can't recall what I said to the FBI agent. It is much easier for me to recall what I said to Hudkins. But I do recall clearly that I said to the FBI agent "I made no correction of his inaccuracies about Hosty's name."
This is where I made no comment.
Mr. JENNER. I am at a loss now.
Mrs. PAINE. Joe is not his name.
Mr. JENNER. I see. His name is James?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you indicate to the agent that you had raised an issue with the reporter?
Mrs. PAINE. He also spelled it with an "i", Hudkins.
Mr. JENNER. With respect to the other phase, that is to what the reporter had said to you.
Mrs. PAINE. I would guess that I reported to Mr. Odum other things about---
Mr. JENNER. Present recollections Mrs. Paine.
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall the particular conversation with Mr. Odum at all. I talked with him a great deal.
Mr. JENNER. Did you deny this state to Mr. Hudkins, the reporter?
Mrs. PAINE. To Mr. Hudkins?
Mr. JENNER. Did you say to him that you did not agree with his statement?
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Mrs. PAINE. To Mr. Hudkins I said many things, which I hoped would convince him that he had no story, that his information was very shaky, that Oswald was not in my view a person that would have been hired by the FBI or by Russia. I said to him "You are the other side of the coin from a Mr. Guy Richards of the New York Journal-American who is certain that Oswald was a paid spy for the Soviet Union, and just as inaccurate," and coming to, in my opinion, and of course I made it clear this was my opinion, to conclusions just as wrong.
Mr. JENNER. That is, it was your opinion that Lee Oswald was neither a Russian agent nor an agent of any agency of the United States?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right. I said indeed to Mr. Hudkins, I had said to Mr. Richards that if the so- called great Soviet conspiracy has to rest for its help upon such inadequate people as Lee Oswald, there is no hope of their achieving their aims. I said I simply cannot believe that the FBI would find it necessary to employ such a shaky and inadequate person.
Mr. JENNER. And is that still your view?
Mrs. PAINE. Indeed it is.
Mr. JENNER. Did you also say to Mr. Odum on that occasion that you knew that Agent Hosty had not interviewed Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mrs. PAINE. Probably.
Senator COOPER. Did you read the statements after they had been written?
Mrs. PAINE. What statements?
Senator COOPER. The statements of the FBI.
Mrs. PAINE. Oh, no; I have never.
Senator COOPER. You have never seen them?
Mrs. PAINE. Never seen anything of it. I knew they must write something, but I have never seen any of these statements.
Senator COOPER. You never asked them to show you the statements?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever make a statement to anybody that you can recall that Lee Harvey Oswald in your opinion was doing underground work?
Mrs. PAINE. That has never been my opinion. I would be absolutely certain that he never--
Mr. JENNER. Please, did you say it?
Mrs. PAINE. And I would be absolutely certain that I never said such a thing.
Mr. JENNER. To anybody, including when I say anybody, Mrs. Dorothy Gravitis?
Mrs. PAINE. Absolutely certain. Never said to anyone that I thought Lee was doing undercover work.
Senator COOPER. What is that name?
Mr. JENNER. Gravitis, G-r-a-v-i-t-i-s.
Senator COOPER. Do you know this person?
Mrs. PAINE. She is my Russian tutor in Dallas.
Senator COOPER. What?
Mrs. PAINE. Russian tutor and the mother-in-law of the translator that was at the police station.
Mr. JENNER. To conclude this series--
Mrs. PAINE. Would you clarify for me, someone is of the opinion that I thought that Oswald was an undercover agent for whom?
Mr. JENNER. That you said so.
Mrs. PAINE. For whom?
Mr. JENNER. For the Russian government.
Mrs. PAINE. Oh. I have certainly never said anything of the sort.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever say to anybody including Mrs. Gravitis that you thought Lee Harvey Oswald was a Communist?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, it is possible I said that. I thought he considered himself a Communist by ideology, certainly a Marxist. He himself always corrected anyone who called him a Communist and said he was a Marxist.
Mr. JENNER. When you use the term communist do you think of a person as a member of the Communist Party or a native of Russia?
Mrs. PAINE. I seldom use the term at all, but I would confine it to people who were members or considered themselves in support of Communist ideology.
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Mr. JENNER. A person in your mind may be a Communist, and yet not a member of the Communist Party, even in Russia?
Mrs. PAINE. I. might use the word in that loose way.
Mr. JENNER. The last of these interviews was on, may I suggest, and if not would you correct me, January 27, 1964, by Agent Wiehl, and Agent Hosty. It appears, and would you please correct me if I am wrong, to have been an interview in your home at the very tail end of January 1964?
Mrs. PAINE. I have no specific recollection.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall an interview in which you reported to the FBI, these two agents, that agent Hosty--no, that you gave Lee Harvey Oswald the name of agent James P. Hosty together with the Dallas FBI telephone number which you had obtained on November 1, 1963, that you did not give him the license number of the automobile driven by agent Hosty, however, and that, as I have asked you before, the license number could have been observed by Marina Oswald on November 1?
Mrs. PAINE. That is my recollection of the occurrence.
Mr. JENNER. And it could have been observed on November 5th?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Senator COOPER. Did you yourself see the license plate?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Senator COOPER. You don't know the numbers or letters that were on the license plate?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, you testified yesterday and you testified again today, this morning, that you had no recollection of Lee Oswald having gone into the garage of your home on Thursday, November 21. Do you recall that testimony?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, that I did not see him there or see him go through the door to the garage. I was clear in my own mind that it was he who had left the light on, and I tried to describe that.
Mr. JENNER. It may have been a possibility and you were inferring from that that he was in the garage.
Mrs. PAINE. I definitely infer that.
Mr. JENNER. Were you interviewed by the FBI agents Hosty and Abernathy on the 23d of November 1963?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And in the course of that interview, do you recall having stated to these agents that on the evening of November 21, Lee Oswald went out to the garage of your home, where he had many of his personal effects stored, and spent considerable time, apparently rearranging and handling his personal effects.
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall saying exactly that.
Mr. JENNER. Could you have said that to the agents.
Mrs. PAINE. I could have said as far as spending considerable time.
Mr. JENNER. Now that your recollection is possibly further refreshed, please tell us what you did say to the agents as you now recall?
Mrs. PAINE. You have refreshed nothing. You have got all there was of my recollection in previous testimony.
Mr. JENNER. Based on the fundamentals, the specifics which you have given us yesterday and today, you did report to the FBI on the 23d of November in the interview to which I have called your attention that on the evening of the 21st Oswald went out to the garage where he had many of his personal effects stored, and spent considerable time apparently rearranging and handling his personal effects.
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall ever saying "apparently rearranging and handling."
Mr. JENNER. Other than the word "apparently" that is a reasonable summary of what you did say to the FBI agents, is it?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall. I think my best recollection is as I have given it to you in the testimony, was it this morning, that I certainly was of the opinion that he had been out there. I had been busy for some time with my children, and I could easily, and of course that was the day after, and this several months after, have been of the opinion, been informed as to how long he had been out there, but my recollection now doesn't give me any length of time.
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Mr. JENNER. You have heretofore given us yesterday and today your very best recollection after full reflection on all the course of events.
Mrs. PAINE. I certainly have.
Mr. JENNER. I notice that during the course of the interview, and perhaps you will recall, that you did call attention of the FBI, these two agents, to the Mexico City letter about which you have testified, is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I gave it to them.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, that is all I intend to cover with respect to the FBI. Do you have any questions? We will go on to another subject.
Senator COOPER. This would be going back into the subject on which you have already testified, but with reference to this last statement, this letter, where it is reported, you said, Lee Oswald did go into the garage and spend some time, did you. make a statement to the FBI after the agents had been in the garage, or the police had been in the garage, and had found the blanket with nothing in it.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, certainly, this was the next day that Hosty was out with Abernathy.
Senator COOPER. And you did remember of course that you found the light on?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Senator COOPER. You did not expect it to be on in the garage? Do you think it is correct then that at the time you made this statement, recognizing the importance of the garage, that you did say at that time that he had been in the garage on the night before the President was assassinated?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. I think I said that.
Senator COOPER. You think you made that statement?
Mrs. PAINE. I think I made that statement. This was certainly my impression.
Mr. JENNER. You have already related the arrival of your husband, Michael Paine, at your home in mid-afternoon of the day of the assassination?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now would you please tell me exactly to the best of your recollection the words of your husband as he walked in the door?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall his saying anything.
Mr. JENNER. Now his words if any with respect to why he had come.
Mrs. PAINE. I asked him before he volunteered. I said something to the effect of "how did you know to come?"
Mr. JENNER. And what did he say?
Mrs. PAINE. He said he had heard on the radio at work that Lee Oswald was in custody, and came immediately to the house.
Mr. JENNER. And that is what you recall he said?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Did he say, and I quote: "I heard where the President was shot, and I came right over to see if I could be of any help to you."'
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Did he also say to you that he "just walked off the job."
Mrs. PAINE. No. He said he had come from work. I might interject here one recollection if you want it.
Mr. JENNER. Please.
Mrs. PAINE. Of Michael having telephoned to me after the assassination, He wanted to know if I had heard.
Mr. JENNER. Did he call you before he arrived at your home?
Mrs. PAINE. He called. He knew about the assassination. He had been told by a waitress at lunchtime. I don't know whether he knew any further details. whether he knew from whence the shots had been fired, but he knew immediately that I would want to know, and called simply to find out if I knew, and of course I did, and we didn't converse about it, but I felt the difference between him and my immediate neighbor to whom I have already referred, Michael was as struck and grieved as I was, and we shared this over the telephone.
Mr. JENNER. And his appearance in mid-afternoon. as you have related, was according to what he said activated as you have related, that he had heard that Lee Oswald was now involved.
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
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Mr. JENNER. How did you and Marina look at the parade, that is as the motorcade went along were you and Marina--
Mrs. PAINE. This was not shown on television.
Mr. JENNER. Oh, it wasn't?
Mrs. PAINE. To the best of my recollection they had cameras at the convention center, whatever it was, that the President was coming to for dinner, and for his talk.
Mr. JENNER. And was the motorcade being described, broadcast by radio?
Mrs. PAINE. The motorcade was being described.
Mr. JENNER. Were you and Marina listening to that?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, it was coming through the television set, but it wasn't being shown.
Mr. JENNER. Were you listening?
Mrs. PAINE. We were.
Mr. JENNER. Did she show an interest in this?
Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes.
Mr. JENNER. And it being broadcast in English, I assume you were doing some interpreting for her?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Most of this has been covered, Senator Cooper, and I am getting through pages fortunately that we don't have to go over again.
Senator COOPER. After you knew that the President was dead, and Marina knew, do you know, from that time on, whether she ever went into her room, left you and went into her room?
Mrs. PAINE. I would think it highly likely that she did. The announcement that the President was actually dead came, oh, I think around 1:30 or close to 2. I already related that my little girl wept and fell asleep on the sofa. This was a time therefore that Marina would have been putting Junie to bed in the bedroom.
Senator COOPER. Between the time that you heard the President had been shot and the news came that he died, did she ever leave you and go into her room, do you remember?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't remember specifically, but you must understand that the little baby was already born. She would have had many occasions, needs to go into the room.
Senator COOPER. Do you know whether she went into the garage?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't know.
Senator COOPER. What?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't know whether she went into the garage.
Mr. JENNER. You have no impressions in that respect?
Mrs. PAINE. None.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall an incident involving Lee Oswald's wedding ring?
Mrs. PAINE. I do.
Mr. JENNER. Would you relate that, please?
Mrs. PAINE. One or two FBI agents came to my home, I think, Odum was one of them, and said that Marina had inquired after and wanted Lee's wedding ring, and he asked me if I had any idea where to look for it. I said I'll look first in the little tea cup that is from her grandmother, and on top of the chest of drawers in the bedroom where she had stayed. I looked and it was there.
Mr. JENNER. Calling on your recollection of this man, was he in the habit of wearing his wedding ring?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did this strike you as unusual that the wedding ring should be back in this cup on the dresser in their room?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, quite.
Mr. JENNER. Elaborate as to why it struck you as unusual?
Mrs. PAINE. I do not wear my wedding ring. Marina has on several occasions said to me she considers that bad luck, not a good thing to do.
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I would suspect that she would certainly have wanted Lee to wear his wedding ring, and encouraged him to do it.
Mr. JENNER. In face of the fact that he regularly wore his wedding ring, yet on this occasion, that is being home the evening before, you received this call, you went to the bedroom and you found the wedding ring. Did it occur to you that that might have been in the nature of a leave-taking of some kind by Lee Oswald, leaving his wedding ring for Marina?
Mrs. PAINE. It occurred to me that that might have been a form of thinking ahead. I had no way of knowing whether or not Marina had known that he left it. I was not instructed where to look for it.
Mr. JENNER. You were not?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. But Marina did say to you "would you look for Lee's wedding ring?"
Mrs. PAINE. No, Odum did.
Mr. JENNER. Odum did.
Mrs. PAINE. And of course clearly they would know whether he had it.
Mr. JENNER. Yes, I see. It was not Marina. It was one of the FBI agents. And it is your clear recollection that he was in the habit of wearing that
wedding ring all the time. Do you ever recall an occasion when he left the wedding ring at home?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. To your knowledge?
Mrs. PAINE. To my knowledge, no.
Mr. JENNER. When you obtained the wedding ring did you examine it?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. I mean did you look inside to see if there was an inscription on it or were you curious about that?
Mrs. PAINE. I gave it to Mr. Odum who was with me in the room.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Odum accompanied you?
Mrs. PAINE. Went with me to the bedroom. I am pretty sure he was the one.
Senator COOPER. The morning of the day that the President was killed, did Mrs. Oswald, after she got up, say anything to you about any unusual characteristics of Lee Oswald's taking leave of her that morning?
Mrs. PAINE. Absolutely none.
Senator COOPER. Did she talk about him leaving? Did she tell you anything at all about what happened when he did get up?
Mrs. PAINE. I have a recollection that must be from her that she woke enough to feed the baby, to nurse the baby in the morning, when he was getting up to go, but she then went back to sleep after that, and she must have told me that. But that is all I know, that she had been awake, and nursed the baby early in the morning, and then went back to sleep.
Senator COOPER. And Lee Oswald went back to sleep?
Mrs. PAINE. No, no, Marina went back to sleep.
Senator COOPER. Oh, Marina went back to sleep. Was he leaving then?
Mrs. PAINE. I judge so.
Senator COOPER. What?
Mrs. PAINE. I judge so.
Senator COOPER. But I mean did she say anything else about him?
Mrs. PAINE. No; nothing about his leaving at all.
Mr. JENNER. What were his habits with respect to breakfast? For example on the Monday mornings of the weekends which he visited your home, did he prepare his own, and if so, what kind of a breakfast did he prepare?
Mrs. PAINE. I would say his habit was to have a cup of instant coffee only.
Mr. JENNER. And you have a clear recollection that on the morning of the
21st when you went into the kitchen--
Mrs. PAINE. The 22d.
Mr. JENNER. The 22d, I am sorry, the 22d you saw a plastic coffee cup or tea cup, and you looked at it and you could see the remains of somebody having prepared instant coffee?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. And that is clear in your mind?
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Mrs. PAINE. Perfectly clear. I looked especially for traces of Lee having been up, since I wondered if he might be still sleeping, having overslept.
Mr. JENNER. Was he in the habit on these weekends of making himself a sandwich which he would take with him?
Mrs. PAINE. No; there is no such habit. Perhaps once Marina prepared something for him to take with him, I think more for him to put in his room, partly for lunch, partly for him to have at his room in town and use the refrigerator.
Mr. JENNER. But in any event, on the morning of the 22d you saw no evidence of there having been an attempt by anybody to prepare?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Sandwiches for lunch or to take anything else in the way of food from your home?
Mrs. PAINE. I saw no evidence, and I saw nothing that was missing.
Mr. JENNER. At any time during all the time you knew the Oswalds, up to and including November 22, was any mention ever made of any attempt on the life of Richard Nixon?
Mrs. PAINE. None.
Mr. JENNER. Just that subject matter, was it ever mentioned?
Mrs. PAINE. Never.
Mr. JENNER. To the best of your recollection did they ever discuss Richard Nixon as a person?
Mrs. PAINE. I can't recall Richard Nixon coming into the conversation at any time.
Mr. JENNER. And to the present day--well, I want to include the time that you spoke here a couple weeks ago with Marina, let us say up to and including that day had there ever been any discussion with you by Marina of
the possibility of Lee Oswald contemplating making an attack upon the person of Richard Nixon?
Mrs. PAINE. No; no such discussion.
Mr. JENNER. Did anyone else ever talk to you about that up to that time, talk to you on that subject?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, after it was rumored in the paper, someone asked me if I thought there was anything to it but that is something else.
Mr. JENNER. When you say recently some rumor to that effect that is what you are talking about?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Up to that time?
Mrs. PAINE. Absolutely none.
Mr. JENNER. I take it from your testimony this morning that you have seen and talked with Robert Oswald but once?
Mrs. PAINE. And you recall also when he came to pick up her things?
Mr. JENNER. Oh, yes.
Mrs. PAINE. Twice.
Mr. JENNER. So you saw him once for the first time in the city police station?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. You talked with him on that occasion. You saw him on one occasion when not so long after that he came out to pick up her things?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. And had some conversation with him then. Have there ever been any other occasions that you have had a conversation with him directly or by telephone?
Mrs. PAINE. No. I made one attempt to have such a conversation and drove out to his home in Denton and talked with his wife.
Mr. JENNER. And what occurred then? When was that?
Mrs. PAINE. Possibly in January.
Mr. JENNER. Of 1964?
Mrs. PAINE. Right,
Mr. JENNER. Why did you go out there?
Mrs. PAINE. I had been writing letters to Marina and receiving no reply, and I wanted to go and talk with both Robert and his wife to inquire what was the best way to be a friend to Marina in this situation, whether it was better to
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write letters or better not to, whether she wanted to hear from me or whether she didn't, and knowing that they had seen her, I felt they might be able to help me with this.
I was told by Mrs. Robert Oswald that Robert had a bad cold, and she didn't want to expose my children who were with me, and she and I talked through the screen, and I explained what I wanted. But I didn't feel helped by the visit.
Mr. JENNER. You did not.
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Did you feel that there was a lack of cordiality?
Mrs. PAINE. She apologized for not having me in, and she was friendly and said, "what nice children you have," but it is somewhat hard to communicate through a screen.
Mr. JENNER. That was the only difficulty that you observed, the difficulty in talking through the screen door, the screen of the door?
Mrs. PAINE. I felt that she could have asked me whether I cared if my children were exposed. I felt that she preferred for me not to come in.
Senator COOPER. Was Marina staying with them?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't believe so. I am pretty certain she was at that time at
the Martin's home.
Senator COOPER. Did you get any impression in your talk with Mrs. Robert Oswald that they were not interested in finding out the information that you were asking for?
Mrs. PAINE. She offered the opinion that she didn't think there was any particular point to writing letters at this time, but she offered no reason.
Mr. JENNER. By the way, do you have copies of those letters, Mrs. Paine?
Mrs. PAINE. At home.
Mr. JENNER. I know now that I will be to see you on Monday.
Mrs. PAINE. Monday?
Mr. JENNER. Yes. Are you going to be home on Monday?
Mrs. PAINE. I am flying Monday morning. Shall we go together? I am not leaving until Monday morning.
Mr. JENNER. I am going down Sunday night. So may I see those letters on that occasion?
Mrs. PAINE. As soon as I get home.
Mr. JENNER. Would you be good enough--
Mrs. PAINE. I will have to translate them.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mrs. PAINE. That will take a while.
Mr. JENNER. With respect to the curtain-rod package, would you be good enough to leave it intact, don't touch it, just leave it where it is without touching it at all.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now you have related to us the Texas School Book Depository employment, the ability to operate an automobile. I am going to read a list of names to you, and you stop me every time I read a name that is familiar to you. There are some of the Russian emigre group in and around Dallas. Some of them may not be Russian emigre group people, but some of the members of the staff want these particular persons covered. George Bouhe.
Mrs. PAINE. I don't know him.
Mr. JENNER. I want also your response that you didn't hear these names discussed by either Marina or Lee.
Mrs. PAINE. I have never heard that name discussed by Marina or Lee Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. and Mrs. Frank Ray.
Mrs. PAINE. I did not hear that name discussed by either of them. I have since learned from Mrs. Ford that it was to Mrs. Ray's home that Marina went from Mrs. Ford's home in the fall of 1962.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. and Mrs. Thomas Ray.
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. I won't ask you--well, I have Mr. and Mrs. De Mohrenschildt on my list.
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You have already testified about them.
Mrs. PAINE. I have met them once; yes.
Mr. JENNER. Only on that one occasion?
Mrs. PAINE. To the best of my recollection; that is right.
Mr. JENNER. John and Elena Hall?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I don't know them.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever hear them discussed by either Marina or Lee?
Mrs. PAINE. I have never at any time heard that name.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
I think I pronounce this correctly, Tatiana Biggers?
Mrs. PAINE. I am not familiar with that name, and I never heard it.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Teofil Meller?
Mrs. PAINE. I am not familiar with that name.
Mr. JENNER. Lydia Dymitruk?
Mrs. PAINE. I met a Lydia who was working as a clerk at a grocery store in Irving, and I had met Marina previously. I am not certain of her last name. I am certain that Marina told me not to learn Russian from her, it was not grammatical.
Mr. JENNER. I see.
By the way, did Marina go out by herself occasionally and shop?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. and Mrs. Daniel F. Sullivan?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't know that name.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. and Mrs. Alan A. Jackson III?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't know that name.
Mr. JENNER. Peter Gregory?
Mrs. PAINE. I know that name; yes. That name was mentioned by, to the best of my recollection first in my presence by, Marguerite Oswald, who told us that she had just started at the police when I first met her
Mr. JENNER. I would like that. The first time there came to your attention and your consciousness the name Peter Gregory was when Marguerite Oswald mentioned it at the police station on the 22d of November 1963, is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; because she had just begun a course of study with him in order to try to learn the Russian language at the public library.
Mr. JENNER. She so said?
Mrs. PAINE. She so said. I don't recall having heard the name previously.
Although I am not certain.
Mr. JENNER. Paul Gregory.
Mrs. PAINE. I would be absolutely certain I had never heard the name from either of the Oswalds.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Is that likewise true of Paul Gregory who is the son I may tell you of Peter Gregory?
Mrs. PAINE. I am not familiar with that name.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. and Mrs., I know you are familiar with this name, Mr. and Mrs. Declan Ford. When did you first hear of the name of those people with respect to November 22, 1963, before or after or on that very day?
Mrs. PAINE. Mrs. Ford was mentioned to me by name by Marina in the fall of 1963 before the time of the assassination. Marina described to me a party at Mrs. Ford's home, and described the decor of the house and how much she admired Mrs. Ford's tastes, and said that Mrs. Ford had done most of the decorating herself.
Let me just say Marina also told me she had stayed at someone's home in the fall of 1962, but she did not tell me the name of Mrs. Ford in that connection.
It came up in this other connection. It is only since the assassination that I learned she had stayed briefly at Mrs. Ford's.
Mr. JENNER. I see.
That is the extent of your information with respect to the Fords at least up to November 22?
Mrs. PAINE. Up to the time of the assassination that is the extent of it.
Mr. JENNER. I wish to be certain of this and I don't recall whether I asked you and, therefore, I will risk repetition.
Did Marina and Lee, with you or even without you, visit any people, to your
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knowledge, while Marina was living with you in the fall of 1963, just social visit, go out and make a social visit?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. I meant to include whether either together as a couple or separately.
Mrs. PAINE. I recall no such visit.
Mr. JENNER. I think your testimony was when Lee Oswald came home on the weekends, from what you have described he remained on the premises?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. With the possible exception of one instance when he went off and bought some groceries or am I wrong about that exception?
Mrs. PAINE. He went with my children to buy some popsicles while I was teaching a student, so I was not at home that time.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
We have a report, Mrs. Paine, and you might help us with it on this subject, of a barber in your community, who recounts to the FBI that in his opinion Lee Harvey Oswald or what he thinks a gentleman who was that man, came to his shop reasonably regularly and had a haircut on Saturday, on Saturdays, and accompanying him was what he judged to be a 14-year-old boy. Do you recall Lee Oswald ever obtaining a haircut over any weekend while he was at your home?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. To the best of your recollection, subject to his being off the premises while you were away shopping, it is your present firm recollection he never left the premises once he arrived, save this one instance that you knew of when he went to get popsicles?
Mrs. PAINE. Of course, I was away during that instance.
Mr. JENNER. You were?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. But you anticipated?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. Now, the morning of the 11th of November I was not home from something before 9 o'clock until about 2 that afternoon. I don't know what transpired during that time.
Mr. JENNER. Were there other occasions when you were off ministering to your children, that is taking them to the dentist or something of that nature, on a Saturday or to church on Sunday or to the local park on Sunday, that Lee Oswald may have been, that is periods of time when you would not have known whether he was on or off your premises?
Mrs. PAINE. I can think only of grocery shopping which would have been an hour to an hour and a half period, and the two times that I can recall in the Saturday afternoon, on a Saturday afternoon that I went to Dallas to teach one Russian student a lesson. I can't think of any other spaces of time, hours that I was away.
Mr. JENNER. Now, this gentleman also says--
Mrs. PAINE. Except the one I have just mentioned, of course, the one of November 11.
Mr. JENNER. He also says that the man he thinks was Lee Harvey Oswald not only regularly came to his shop on Friday evenings or Saturday mornings for a haircut, but that he occasionally drove a station wagon.
Do you know of any occasion to your certain knowledge that Lee drove your station wagon other than the one occasion you have already related?
Mrs. PAINE. Absolutely none.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know whether Lee Oswald subscribed to any newspapers?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I do.
Mr. JENNER. What newspapers, excuse me, did he or did he not subscribe?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. They came to my door. They sat around the house until the weekend when he arrived.
Mr. JENNER. Tell us what newspapers those were?
Mrs. PAINE. I noticed a paper which I was told was from Minsk.
Mr. JENNER. Was it in Russian?
Mrs. PAINE. In Russian.
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Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see it in the sense of glancing at it out of idle curiosity if nothing else?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And it was in Russian?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Was there something about it that indicated to you that it came from Minsk?
Mrs. PAINE. Marina told me.
Mr. JENNER. She told you. Was it a political tract or was it a newspaper as we understand newspapers?
Mrs. PAINE. It was a newspaper as Russians understand newspapers which makes it a borderline political tract.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
In addition to that Russian newspaper from Minsk was there anything--
Mrs. PAINE. There was a Russian magazine, small, Reader's Digest size.
Mr. JENNER. The witness is indicating in her hands about a page size of about nine by--
Mrs. PAINE. Six.
Mr. JENNER. Nine by six.
Is that about the size?
Mrs. PAINE. Something like that, called the Agitator, the name written in Russian.
Mr. JENNER. The word "Agitator" was written in Russian, printed in Russian?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. On the face or cover page of this document, is that true?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Was the entire document in Russian?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have occasion to look at it?
Mrs. PAINE. Just the outside.
Mr. JENNER. Your curiosity or intellectual interest never went beyond reading any portion of one of the issues?
Mrs. PAINE. It never did.
Mr. JENNER. But you do recall definitely the title page?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Any others?
Mrs. PAINE. Crocodile, which is a Russian satirical humor magazine.
Mr. JENNER. Was that in Russian?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have occasion to read it and to observe Russian humor?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. It was not political in character?
Mrs. PAINE. Being satirical, of course, it made political reference but it was not particularly political in nature.
Mr. JENNER. It was not designed as a political tract, put it that way.
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Anything else?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. The Russian magazine Ogonok.
Mr. JENNER. What does that mean in Russian?
Mrs. PAINE. It means "bonfire" or "fire".
Mr. JENNER. Was that printed in Russian?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have--did your curiosity lead you to read any portion of it?
Mrs. PAINE. Or it may be let's see, I am not certain in my translation, but go ahead with the question.
Mr. JENNER. You are not certain of your translation of the word?
Mrs. PAINE. Of that single word?
Mr. JENNER. Of the title of this document about which you are now speaking?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. But you think it means what you said it meant?
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Mrs. PAINE. It has something to do with fire; yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you read any portion of any of those issues?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did.
Mr. JENNER. And what was the nature of it with respect to whether it was political or otherwise?
Mrs. PAINE. It was not political.
Mr. JENNER. What was its nature?
Mrs. PAINE. Narrative, special articles of interest to the general population.
Marina enjoyed reading this one.
Mr. JENNER. She enjoyed it?
Mrs. PAINE. She expressed herself as disliking the Agitator. She interpreted some of the things in Crocodile for me which I had difficulty understanding.
Mr. JENNER. Anything else?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. He subscribed to Time magazine.
Mr. JENNER. Here in America?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And did he read it when he come out on weekends?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; he did. He read that first.
Mr. JENNER. Sat down and read that first.
Did he take the issue away with him when he left every week?
Mrs. PAINE. It is my impression he did.
Mr. JENNER. Are there any others?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. He subscribed to the Militant.
Mr. JENNER. Militant. What is the Militant?
Mrs. PAINE. It is a paper in English, newspaper style and I would say these next two--
Mr. JENNER. Published by whom?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't know.
Mrs. JENNER. Socialist Worker's Party?
Mrs. PAINE. I have been so told.
Mr. JENNER. You just don't know?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't know.
Mr. JENNER. But was it a political tract?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't know that.
Mr. JENNER. Did you read it?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mrs. JENNER. Why didn't you?
Mrs. PAINE. I wasn't interested.
Mr. JENNER. Because of the nature of the document?
Mrs. PAINE. If I had had time to do much reading, I might have taken an interest but I had no time, insufficient time to do the reading I really wanted to do. He also subscribed to the Worker.
Mr. JENNER. Is that the publication of the Communist Party USA?
Mrs. PAINE. I have been told so.
Mr. JENNER. Did you read that?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Did you observe--have you now concluded the list of newspapers, periodicals or magazines to which he was a subscriber?
Mrs. PAINE. I believe so. I might say that my awareness of his subscribing to these last two, the Militant and the Worker, came after the assassination. There was mail awaiting for him for that weekend which he did not pick up on the 21st, and after the assassination, indeed, after Saturday evening, the 23d, when it was announced on television that they had a photograph of Lee Oswald holding two papers. I looked at this pile of mail waiting for him which consisted of these two newspapers, the Militant and the Worker, and I threw them away.
Mr. JENNER. You threw them away?
Mrs. PAINE. Without opening them.
Mr. JENNER. Why did you throw them away?
Mrs. PAINE. I was pleased to throw away anything I could. I just didn't want it.
Mr. JENNER. Well, my question or query, and I think expression of surprise,
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is activated by what I am about to ask you as to whether you might call that to the attention of the FBI?
Mrs. PAINE. Oh, I am sure they knew.
Mr. JENNER. How are you sure they knew?
Mrs. PAINE. Because mail stopped coming on the spot, nothing came after the assassination, I was certain it was still coming to some place.
Mr. JENNER. But this was almost instantaneously after you heard a broadcast that a photograph of him had been found in which he had been holding up the Militant.
But you immediately went to see if he had that mail and there was a copy of the Militant and you threw it away?
Mrs. PAINE. Why not?
Mr. JENNER. Well, it occurred to me you might have called the FBI's attention to the fact that it had come to the house. But you didn't in any event?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I didn't.
Mr. JENNER. Did you report it to the FBI in any of these interviews you had subsequently with them, or did they ask? It is two questions, if you will answer both.
Mrs. PAINE. If so, it was quite recently.
Mr. JENNER. When did the other papers begin to arrive? Did I interrupt you before you had a chance to complete your answer to my question?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. The papers different from the Worker and the Militant, when did they begin to arrive at your home?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, they began to arrive, I would say, some time after October 4th. That is, of course, my judgment. That is a rationalization.
Mr. JENNER. These magazines and newspapers you have recounted first appeared at your home after Lee Oswald came to Dallas and became employed or came to Dallas to live at your house and to seek employment?
Mrs. PAINE. He came to Dallas, he lived in Dallas, but he used my house.
Mr. JENNER. He came to your house?
Mrs. PAINE. As a residence, mailing address. Never asked to and I never complained but I noticed, of course, that he was using it as a mailing address.
Mr. JENNER. Up to that time and even though Marina was living with you nothing of that nature came to your home?
Mrs. PAINE. What?
Mr. JENNER. Prior to the time that Lee arrived at your home on or about or on the 4th of October 1963, none of these newspapers or periodicals had come to your home, is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Was he a reader of the local newspaper?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You were a subscriber to what?
Mrs. PAINE. To the Irving newspaper and the Sunday Dallas Morning News.
Mr. JENNER. Did he read both of those?
Mrs. PAINE. He was very interested in seeing the Sunday paper edition especially. He read both, to the best of my recollection.
Mr. JENNER. He also read the daily papers?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, he wasn't there daily.
Mr. JENNER. When he was there he read it?
Mrs. PAINE. The Irving paper didn't come out on Saturday, so it was only the Sunday papers.
Mr. JENNER. But there were occasions when you had issues, the Friday issue around or Thursday issue around your home?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall his being interested in back issues.
Mr. JENNER. Are there any letters and communications between you and Marina or between you and Lee Oswald to which you have not called my attention?
Mrs. PAINE. There never were any letters of any sort between me and Lee Oswald except unless you could include this English portion to which I have already called your attention in a letter to Marina.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
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Mrs. PAINE. The only other letters--I have called your attention to all such letters, but I will have to wait until you are in Dallas to see the letters written since the assassination to Marina.
Mr. JENNER. Then I will ask you this question.
You produced for my inspection all of these letters other than the ones that I will see when I am in Dallas which you have identified as having been written subsequent to, subsequently to, November 22, 1963, is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right, you have all the correspondence.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mrs. PAINE. Wait, we did omit one letter which you have from Marina.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; I have it here.
Mrs. PAINE. You have no gaps that I could supply you.
Mr. JENNER. I appreciate the fact I have that letter which we found not relevant and, therefore, I did not tender it. You have tendered to me everything other than those I will see when I reach Dallas.
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Now, do you recall having a conversation with Dr. Froelich Rainey--
Senator COOPER. May I ask, just a moment, the letter which has not been tendered and which was said not to be relevant--
Mrs. PAINE. You have a copy of it.
Senator COOPER. To whom was that letter addressed?
Mr. JENNER. That is addressed to Marina.
Senator COOPER. May I ask, does counsel have a copy of that letter?
Mr. JENNER. Yes; I have a copy of the letter and I have preserved the original and I also have a typewritten copy.
Senator COOPER. It has not been offered as part of evidence?
Mr. JENNER. It has not been offered because it is irrelevant to anything referred to here and it also has a personal remark in it that Mrs. Paine would prefer not to have spread on the record.
Mrs. PAINE. A remark not pertinent to the assassination or to the Oswalds but to my marriage.
Mr. JENNER. Is the name--
Senator COOPER. Let me just say for the record I think that will have to be a matter which will have to be considered by the members of the Commission.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
The letter to which you have reference you have exhibited to me, it is in your handwriting and it is in the same condition now as it was, a copy of a letter as I recall?
Mrs. PAINE. Which letter are you referring to?
(Short recess.)
Senator COOPER. On the record.
Mr. JENNER. I will do some jumping around because we have some tag ends to cover, I hope in a hurry.
You left New Orleans on September 23, was that in the morning or afternoon?
Mrs. PAINE. It was early morning.
Mr. JENNER. Early morning.
Did you drive right straight through to Irving?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. You stopped then the evening of September 23, is that right?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. And where, in Texas?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it was just over the line into Texas.
Mr. JENNER. Do you remember the name of the town?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I don't.
Mr. JENNER. Did you pay for that lodging?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did.
Mr. JENNER. By the way,.was there ever any financial arrangement agreed on with respect to Marina's stay with you in the fall of 1963 which would involve your giving her $10 a week or any other sum?
Mrs. PAINE. No; nothing was said beyond this attempt in the letter that I made to make her feel that she would not be having to ask for every need.
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Mr. JENNER. We have those letters now in evidence and you testified about them
yesterday?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Returning your attention to the time that Mr. Oswald, Lee Oswald, came to Irving in October of 1963, that is October 4, and reported to you he hitchhiked, you recall that?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. He remained overnight the night of the 4th of October, is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; he did.
Mr. JENNER. Did he return to Dallas the following day?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Was he driven back to Dallas within the next couple of days by you?
Mrs. PAINE. My recollection is that I took him to the bus station around noon on the 7th of October, that is a Monday.
Mr. JENNER. You did not drive him all the way into downtown Dallas?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I don't believe so.
Mr. JENNER. Marina has testified, or at least when interviewed by the FBI stated, that you did drive Lee to downtown Dallas.
Mrs. PAINE. I have given you all my recollections on this matter, haven't I, for the record?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. PAINE. With--
Mr. JENNER. Even after further reflection last night your recollection is as you have already stated?
Mrs. PAINE. That there was an occasion that we were going in with a Russian typewriter on an errand of mine to get that fixed, and I drove him to Ross Street and some crossroad, and he said was near to the employment office.
Mr. JENNER. I see. What occasion was this?
Mrs. PAINE. What day?
Mr. JENNER. Day, yes; please?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall but I would be fairly certain it was a Monday.
Mr. JENNER. And had he been out at your home over the weekend?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; that is my best recollection.
Mr. JENNER. Was it after he had become employed with the Book Depository?
Mrs. PAINE. No; he was on his way to the employment office. This was his purpose.
Mr. JENNER. So it was sometime prior to the weekend, was it, that the matter by the Texas Book Depository had arisen?
Mrs. PAINE. I would judge that it has to have been on the 14th, which was and indeed morning prior to the conversation at Mrs. Roberts about this.
Mr. JENNER. I see.
Mrs. PAINE. But I may be wrong about that, but it is my best recollection.
Mr. JENNER. Did the conversation at Mrs. Roberts take place on the 15th of
Mrs. PAINE. No; on the 14th.
Mr. JENNER. On the 14th. That was what day of the week?
Mrs. PAINE. Monday.
Mr. JENNER. Did you drive him into Dallas on that day?
Mrs. PAINE. I can't think when else it could have been.
Mr. JENNER. And to the best of your recollection that is probably the day then?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Did you indicate did Marina accompany you?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did she or you indicate any interest in driving by and seeing his
apartment or room?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion at any time, Mrs. Paine, in your home
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or otherwise, with Marina or with Lee, as to the appearance of his rooming house, curtains flooring, what it was like?
Mrs. PAINE. The only thing I recall is that he described it as more comfortable than the $7 room he had occupied, told me the cost of it, said that he could watch television and had privileges to use the refrigerator.
Mr. JENNER. But other than that he didn't describe it?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Was there ever any discussion of any need on his part for curtains, that he liked to brighten up his room or in any respect, any additional appointments?
Mrs. PAINE. There was no such conversation at any time.
Mr. JENNER. You are acquainted with Dr. Froelich Rainey?
Mrs. PAINE. I am.
Mr. JENNER. He is--what is his position with the University of Pennsylvania. He has a position with the University of Pennsylvania Music Department, has he not?
Mrs. PAINE. He is the curator, the head man, as I understand it.
Mr. JENNER. You are acquainted with his wife Penelope?
Mrs. PAINE. I am.
Mr. JENNER. Does Penelope speak Russian fluently?
Mrs. PAINE. She has a very good command of the language. I think she has not had very much opportunity to use it in speech.
Mr. JENNER. Have you had occasion to inquire of Mrs. Rainey as to whether she might assist you with your Russian studies?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, there was never any discussion of assisting me in the role of tutor. She did some years ago loan me a record which I taped that was Russian and we visited this fall as part of my trip in the east.
Mr. JENNER. You mean, summer, not fall.
Mrs. PAINE. Well, it was, yes, August probably or early September that I saw her.
Mr. JENNER. And you do recall during the course of your summer trip before is you wound up in New Orleans from that trip?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. So we are talking about the same trip.
Mrs. PAINE. That is the same trip.
Mr. JENNER. You did see her?
Mrs. PAINE. I did.
Mr. JENNER. Where in Philadelphia?
Mrs. PAINE. At her home.
Mr. JENNER. Where is her home?
Mrs. PAINE. Her home is not far from the residence where I was saying in Paoli. It is suburban Philadelphia.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have occasion then to report to her that--about Marina?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did.
Mr. JENNER. And advise her in that respect, that she was married to an American who is now residing in New Orleans?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you say to her that the, I will call the, lady, Marina, but it is stated differently here, appeared to be having marital difficulties with her husband.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And would you state what your remarks were to Mrs. Rainey in that connection? That is the treatment of Marina by Lee?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall exactly what I said as to the treatment, but that Marina was unhappy, and that I thought she should have some alternative to living with him, and that I would probably, when down there, offer for her to live at my home. She asked me what Michael thought of that, and I said we had discussed it but that Michael and I were not living together, and this was news to Mrs. Rainey, and concerned her deeply.
And I said that I was lonely. I recall one important thing in what I said to Mrs. Rainey, that I never said in conversation to anyone else, that I was worried about offending Lee, that if offended, or if he felt 1 was talking his wife or not
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doing what he wanted in the situation, that he might be angry with me, and that I didn't want to subject myself or my children to possible harm from him.
She is the only person to whom I mentioned my thought that he might possibly be a person who could cause harm, and there was a very, not a strong thought in my thinking at all, but should be registered as having at least occurred to me, that he could be angry to the point of violence in relation to me.
Mr. JENNER. To the point of physical violence in relation to you?
Mrs. PAINE. In relation to me in this situation and I wanted to be perfectly
sure before I made any offer definite that he was not, in fact, angry at my offer.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall visiting your sister Sylvia?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; indeed.
Mr. JENNER. You were there about 3 days?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you discuss Marina when you were with your sister?
Mr. PAINE. Very probably.
Mr. JENNER. And in substance did you say to your sister that you intended to go to New Orleans in the course of your trip within about 2 weeks to pick up Marina who was pregnant, she was the wife of an American, and she was to live with you in your home in Texas?
Did you say that much to her?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, I probably said it depended on whether she wanted to go.
Mr. JENNER. Other than that have I stated the substance in that connection?
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you also say to her that Marina wanted to leave her husband who was not supporting her, and was a jerk as far as his husband's role was concerned?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. You did not.
What did you say, did you say anything of similar import?
Mrs. PAINE. Similar?
Mr. JENNER. That is, you did imply to your sister, did you, that Marina wished to leave Lee?
Mrs. PAINE. No. I would guess. that was her interpretation.
Mr. JENNER. What did you say in this connection, please?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall exactly.
Mr. JENNER. Well, did you say, did you express your personal opinion to your sister as to Lee Oswald?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. What did you say in that connection.
Mrs. PAINE. My opinion of Lee Oswald was quite negative all the way up to--
This is what you have told your sister now, that is what I want. I can't recall exactly what I told my sister at all.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. PAINE. I talked with virtually everyone I saw this summer, and there were a great many people, about this friend because it was important to me. I have already testified that I thought Lee didn't care enough about his wife and wasn't being a proper husband in the spring and through the summer, therefore, and it wasn't until I was in New Orleans that I thought he cared at all.
Mr. JENNER. I am just confining myself to this period. During this period as you visited your friends you did have occasion to express a negative opinion on your part with respect to Lee Oswald?
Mrs. PAINE. Indeed.
Mr. JENNER. Is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. It might have been more or less forceful in that expression of your opinion depending on the person with whom or to whom you were talking.
Mrs. PAINE. I would say that my sister's reaction to what I said was more forceful than what I said.
Mr. JENNER. But you did express a negative opinion.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
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Mr. JENNER. You testified that--are you acquainted with a Dr. Carl Hyde?
Mrs. PAINE. He is my brother.
Mr. JENNER. Did you discuss Marina and Lee with him when you visited there in September of 1963?
Mrs. PAINE. I recall particularly an evening discussion with his wife where I told quite a lot about the contact that I had had with Marina.
Mr. JENNER. Did you state to either or both of them that Marina's husband was a Communist?
Mrs. PAINE. That is possible. I think it is more likely that I referred to him as a Marxist.
Mr. JENNER. Now, what is the distinction between a Marxist and a Communist in your mind?
Mrs. PAINE. Distinction is not clear to me, but I judged that Lee felt there was a distinction as he
Mr. JENNER. What was your impression as to what Lee thought a Marxist was as distinguished from a Communist?
Mrs. PAINE. I have no clear impression.
Mr. JENNER. If I suggested the possibility of, that a Marxist tenet was the change in government by violent means rather than gradual process?
Mrs. PAINE. This is not something I ever heard from him.
Mr. JENNER. Was it anything that you ever thought of?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. A concept that you ever had?
Mrs. PAINE. In describing Marxism?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever discuss with Lee why he was--he always took care to distinguish to say that he was a Marxist as distinguished from a Communist?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I never did.
Mr. JENNER. Did you form an impression as to what he intended to convey by that description?
Mrs. PAINE. He intended to convey that he was more pure, I felt, that was my impression.
Mr. JENNER. More pure than what?
Mrs. PAINE. Than a Communist.
Mr. JENNER. Did you also say to your brother or your sister or both of them that Lee had not permitted her to learn English, that is Marina?
Mrs. PAINE. Very probably.
Mr. JENNER. And that Marina was experiencing marital difficulties with Lee?
Mrs. PAINE. Very probably.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever say that Marina did not share her husband's political views?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did.
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, that is to your brother or sister or both of them?
Mrs. PAINE. To the best of my recollection.
Mr. JENNER. Speaking of the marital difficulties, did you ever have the feeling that Marina was in some measure a contribution--contributed toward those,
causing those difficulties or a catalyst from which those difficulties resulted?
Mrs. PAINE. I didn't have that feeling.
Mr. JENNER. You did not.
What feeling did you have in that direction, assuming you had one?
Mrs. PAINE. All the time I knew her or at least any references from her of the matter to their marriage left me with the impression that it was hopeful that though it was difficult they could work out their difficulties.
Mr. JENNER. And that she was desirous of attempting to do so?
Mrs. PAINE. She was desirous of attempting to do so though still leaving open the possibility that in time she would have to conclude that she couldn't.
She by no means simply gave in to him on every point or let him walk on her, but that, I would say, is a healthy thing for the marriage rather than anything contributive to any fundamental difficulty in it.
Mr. JENNER. Have you completed your answer?
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Senator COOPER. May I ask a question?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Senator COOPER. Did Marina ever indicate to you in any way whether or not she felt, after she came to the United States and saw Lee Oswald in his country in which he had been born and reared, that she found him unintelligent or a person of mean ability, small ability or poor background?
Did she ever have any comment in any way on his being inferior?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall her ever commenting in that way.
Mr. JENNER. Was she disappointed in any way after he returned to the United States?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall her ever saying that.
I had heard Mrs. Ford express such an opinion.
Mr. JENNER. That would be hearsay?
Mrs. PAINE. That would be hearsay.
Mr. JENNER. Did you know, are you familiar with the report that appeared in the Fort Worth Press on January 15, 1964, reporting that you had told Marvin Lane that Lee could not have taken the rifle from your garage and gone to practice without your knowledge?
Do you recall that?
Mrs. PAINE. I do.
Mr. JENNER. Mark Lane.
Mrs. PAINE. It is Mark but that perhaps was in the Fort Worth Press. I recall that.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever make that statement to a reporter for the Fort Worth Press?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, I did; with slight variation. It always came out a more definite statement in the press than I meant to make it.
Mr. JENNER. What did you say to the reporter then?
Mrs. PAINE. I said I did not see how he could have taken the gun from the garage without my knowing it. There were two weekends particularly in question which had been reported in the Press that someone had seen him at a firing range, one being the weekend of the 9th and 10th, and I was home virtually all of that weekend except Monday the 11th as I have already described.
The other being the following weekend, and I didn't see how he could have the weekend he was not out at my house, I didn't see how he could have come out, taken the gun, gone away without my knowledge, and if the gun had not been in that garage that weekend, I didn't see what the purpose of his coming out the 21st of November was in the situation.
And this is what I told Mr. Tackett of the Fort Worth Press.
Mr. JENNER. Did you also tell Mr. Tackett in addition to, that his reasons for his not engaging in rifle practice that weekend or any other weekend was
that he couldn't drive an automobile?
Mrs. PAINE. Very probably.
Mr. JENNER. And also that he couldn't have walked that far for rifle practice?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. By that far I mean there is no place you can walk to from my house, not only not to the firing range, but to an open enough place where you could fire. It would be difficult to walk that far.
Mr. JENNER. Where was the firing-range at which it was suggested he practiced?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't know exactly. It was in the Grand Prairie area, just south of where we are located. But it would be a 15-minute car drive I would expect.
Mr. JENNER. From your home to the firing range. Do you know, did you ever go to the firing range to see where it really was located?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I never did.
Mr. JENNER. You are relying on the newspapers, are you?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. When you say thinking of its location you are thinking of the general location of Grand Prairie, Tex.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Senator COOPER. Were you asked to give your opinion on that?
Mrs. PAINE. I think so.
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Senator COOPER. Why would you submit that as your conclusion that he could not have taken the rifle away, could not have got to a firing range?
Mrs. PAINE. The only thing--well--it had been reported in the press that he had been seen at a firing range or someone said he had seen him, Oswald, at a firing range on the weekend of the 9th, 10th, and the following weekend and it seemed to me important to say what I could on the subject if I had any contrary information, and I did any time the reporters asked me about
Senator COOPER. When you made a statement about the rifle, were you considering the fact that he had left your house on the morning of the 21st before You got
Mrs. PAINE. I don't understand the question.
Senator COOPER. The 22d, yes.
Mrs. PAINE. Let me say in making such a statement to the Press, I was not implying that I didn't think Oswald had taken a gun from my house on the morning of the 22d. Now, you ask the question again and perhaps I will understand it better.
Senator COOPER. Were you referring to two weekends when he left your house in saying that he couldn't take the gun or were you including also the morning of the 22d?
Mrs. PAINE. I was definitely not including the morning of the 22d.
Mr. JENNER. May I proceed, Mr. Chairman.
Senator COOPER Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know of any occasion when Lee and Marina did or might have visited the welfare office of the Salvation Army on your return from Dallas?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Having in mind all your contact with them during that period, do you have an opinion as to whether that could have taken place, that they did visit the Salvation Army Welfare Office?
Mrs. PAINE. It was suggested that this was in the fall of the year?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. PAINE. I don't know of any time that they could have.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall in your discussion with Mr. Randle when the matter of the Texas School Book Depository possible employment came up, did you make a statement to Mrs. Randle suggesting that she not mention to anyone that Marina was of Russian birth?
Mrs. PAINE. After he bad been hired I told Mrs. Randle that Lee was worried about losing his Job, and asked her if she would mention to Wesley that he was worried about this, and would prefer for it not to be talked about where he worked, that he had a Russian wife as that would, therefore, bring up the subject of his having been in Russia and, therefore, the subject of his having tried to change his citizenship there, and she said to me oh, she was certain that Wesley would not talk about it.
Mr. JENNER. That was the extent of the conversation?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. And its thrust, rather than the cryptic thrust I have given it?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know a Frank Krystinik?
Mrs. PAINE. I do.
Mr. JENNER. He is an associate of your husband?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have occasion to say to him at any time that Lee Oswald was not properly taking care of his wife and children?
Mrs. PAINE. I could well have given him that impression or given him that impression through Michael. I didn't very often see Frank.
Mr. JENNER. But you could have made that remark to him?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You made similar remarks to others?
Mrs. PAINE. Indeed, I have.
Mr. JENNER. During the time you visited with your mother-in-law, Mrs. Young, did you say to her that Lee wished his wife to return to Russia alone?
Mrs. PAINE. I very probably did.
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Mr. JENNER. And also that he did not wish his wife to learn to speak English?
Mrs. PAINE. I would judge that I did.
Mr. JENNER. And that Marina did not wish to return to Russia?
Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.
Senator COOPER. While you are getting your papers together can I ask a few questions?
Mr. JENNER. Surely.
Senator COOPER. I refer to November 22 when the police came and you and Marina went into the garage with the police, you testified about that. Then you discovered that there wasn't anything in the blanket.
Now, at a later time, I believe you testified that the police showed Marina a rifle and asked her if she could identify this rifle that she had seen in Lee's possession.
What did she say about it?
Mrs. PAINE. She said that her husband's rifle had been a dark gun, that she was not certain that that was the one. That she could not absolutely recall whether there had been a telescopic sight on his gun or not.
Senator COOPER. Was she speaking in Russian?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Senator COOPER. Were you translating?
Mrs. PAINE. No, Mr. Mamantov.
Senator COOPER. Were you following what she said?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; indeed.
Senator COOPER. How did she designate the sight? What words?
Mrs. PAINE. It is a Russian word that sounded to me like binocular, as I recall.
Senator COOPER. Did she refer to it as a sighting device not in the words sighting device, but did her language in substance as she described it give reference to it as a sight on the rifle?
Mrs. PAINE. My judgment is that Mr. Mamantov used the word in reference to it first, you see, and then she simply used the same word.
Asking her was she acquainted with this, and giving the word in Russian, and she said she wasn't certain she had seen that binocular or whatever the word used was on the gun.
Senator COOPER. Now, at any time on the 22d, after she had admitted that she had seen a rifle before, and in your talk with her, either on the way into the police station or any other time, did she say anything more about having seen the rifle before?
Mrs. PAINE. No; she didn't.
Senator COOPER. To you? What?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Senator COOPER. Did you know who brought Lee Oswald to your house from Dallas when he would come for his visits?
Mrs. PAINE. After he had gotten his Job it was my understanding that he came with Wesley Frazier.
Senator COOPER. Did you ever hear him say that anyone else brought him to your house?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I didn't.
Senator COOPER. Did he ever say that any fellow worker at the Depository brought him to the house?
Mrs. PAINE. Other than Wesley Frazier; no.
Senator COOPER. Did he ever mention by name or any description any of the people with whom he worked at the Depository?
Mrs. PAINE. Except for Wesley; no.
Senator COOPER. He never mentioned any one of his fellow workers, associates there?
Mrs. PAINE. None.
Senator COOPER. Did he ever refer to them in any way as liking or disliking them as a group or as individuals?
Mrs. PAINE. No; he didn't.
Senator COOPER. In your talks with him or in hearing him talk did he ever refer to any persons who were friends of his or associates?
Mrs. PAINE. I never heard him mention anyone.
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Senator COOPER. He never mentioned the name of any person?
Mrs. PAINE. Not anyone. He mentioned a friend in Houston as I have already testified, no name and I was wondering whether there was any such friend, I recall that. That is absolutely the only reference I can recall.
Senator COOPER. You said that you told someone that Marina did not agree with his political views?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Senator COOPER. How did you know that?
Mrs. PAINE. She told me she wasn't interested in politics. She told me indeed that Lee complained about her lack of interest.
Senator COOPER. That is something different from saying that she didn't agree with them.
Mrs. PAINE. Well, she did say that she didn't like his having passed out leaflets in New Orleans. This is still different from saying she disagreed, though. But that is the most I can say.
Senator COOPER. Did she ever tell her what her political views were, if any?
Mrs. PAINE. She said she didn't consider herself a person interested in politics. She--
Senator COOPER. Did she ever refer to Lee being a Marxist or a Communist?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall such a reference ever.
Senator COOPER. Did she ever tell you whether or not she was a Marxist or a Communist?
Mrs. PAINE. No. I assumed she was not either.
Senator COOPER. What?
Mrs. PAINE. I assumed she was not either. She did at one point poke fun at the Party faithful who attended a Young Communist meeting in Minsk, whom she considered a dull lot and the meetings quite dull.
Senator COOPER. I missed the early part of your testimony so you may have testified to this, but I thought that I recalled that you did answer a question addressed to you by someone, a member of the Commission or counsel, in which you said that you were attracted to the Oswalds when you first met them, one, because you wanted to perfect your own Russian, and did you say, too, that you were interested because of the fact that he had been a defector and had returned and it was an unusual circumstance which interested you?
Mrs. PAINE. It made him an odd person.
Senator COOPER. What?
Mrs. PAINE. It made him an odd person. I was interested in the curious sense of what could have motivated him to do this.
Senator COOPER. Having that interest, didn't you ever talk to him about it, inquire about his experience?
Mrs. PAINE. I guess I wasn't interested enough.
Senator COOPER. What led him to do it?
Mrs. PAINE. And as I have already testified he always wanted to speak Russian to me, which shortens my tongue. I can't say as much or raise as many questions.
Senator COOPER. Well, did you try to search out the reasons for his defection and the reasons for returning?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I didn't.
Senator COOPER And his political views, his economic views, that kind of thing?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I regret now that I didn't take any interest, but I did not.
Senator COOPER. You said that, in answer to counsel that, you either did tell people or probably told them that you believed Lee Oswald was a Communist.
Mrs. PAINE. It is my impression I spoke of him as he spoke of himself as a Marxist.
Senator COOPER. And you think, you believe, that has some relationship to communism?
Mrs. PAINE. Oh; yes.
Senator COOPER. I think you have stated that you didn't believe it was necessary for a person to actually be a member of the Communist Party to be a Communist in his views?
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Mrs. PAINE. Yes. But that I considered it something less than actually accurate to call such a person a Communist that went on being--
Senator COOPER. Other than the persons you have named in your testimony as having come to your house, was there anyone else who ever came to your house, who talked to Lee Oswald or Marina?
Mrs. PAINE. I recall no one other than the people I have mentioned, sir.
Senator COOPER. Knowing that he was as you have described in your own words, a Marxist, were you concerned at all about that or worried about that, as being in your home?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, as I have described in testimony, I asked myself whether or not he might be a spy. I was not at all worried about ideology contrary to my own or with which I disagreed, and it looked to me that he was a person of this ideology or philosophy which he calls Marxism, indeed nearly a religion.
But not that he was in any way dangerous because of these beliefs.
Senator COOPER. Thinking now and then that he might be a spy or in the employ of the Soviet Union, were you concerned about the fact that such person who might be a spy or an agent of the Soviet Union was living in your house?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, if you recall my testimony I concluded that he was not, and also I was pleased that the FBI had come and I felt that they would worry about that, and that I didn't need to worry about any risk to me of public censure for my befriending such a person.
Senator COOPER. You told about the newspapers and periodicals that he received and read.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Senator COOPER. Did he also have any books that he read while he was at your house?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall his reading books while he was at my house. He watched television a great deal but I don't recall his reading books.
Senator COOPER. You said that he did not have very ample means, financial means.
Were you struck with the fact that he was able to have these newspapers sent to him from Russia, England, New York?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, I observed--
Senator COOPER. The Communist Worker comes from New York.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, nothing from England, I recall, but he certainly considered these valuable. He was willing to spend money on these, I observed that, yes. It was rather unusual or unlike the rest of his behavior in that he did spend money for these periodicals.
Senator COOPER. Did you ever lend any money to either Marina or Lee Oswald?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Senator COOPER. What?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever give them any money?
Mrs. PAINE. Cash money; no.
Senator COOPER. What?
Mrs. PAINE. Cash; no.
Of course, I bought groceries but that is not what you are asking.
Senator COOPER. You gave no money in the sense that you turned over physical possession of it?
Mrs. PAINE. I did not.
Senator COOPER. To either Lee or Marina?
Mrs. PAINE. No; not at any time to either one.
Senator COOPER. You did help them in the sense that you provided a home for Marina and on occasion provided food for Lee?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Senator COOPER. 1 have just one or two more.
You said at one time you came to the conclusion that he wasn't an agent or spy because you didn't think he was intelligent enough.
I believe you said that.
Mrs. PAINE. That and the fact that as far as I could see had no contacts or any means of getting any information that would have been of any interest to the Soviet Union.
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Senator COOPER. Yet he was intelligent enough that he had learned to speak Russian.
Mrs. PAINE. His Russian was poor. His vocabulary was large, his grammar never was good.
Senator COOPER. You said that he had, I believe, had the initiative to go to Russia, not as a tourist but as for reasons that he had developed himself, and that he came back when he made up his mind to come and was able to bring his wife.
You knew he moved around rather quickly, didn't you? He was in New Orleans--
Mrs. PAINE. In this country?
Senator COOPER. Yes.
Mrs. PAINE. No, I knew he had been in Fort Worth and had come to Dallas to seek work and then losing work had gone back to New Orleans and then back to Dallas.
Senator COOPER. What made you willing to have this man, you have said, this very curious man, from all you have described about him, to have him in your house?
Mrs. PAINE. He was Marina's husband and I like her, and I, as I have described, was both lonely and interested in learning the Russian language. I would have been happy had he never come out, indeed happier had he not come out on the weekends.
But they were not separated as a married couple nor contemplating such separation, and I didn't feel that this- it was appropriate for him to have to stay away. I did not ask that.
Senator COOPER. Prior to the time that Marina left your home the day of the assassination, wasn't it?
Mrs. PAINE. She left the next day.
Senator COOPER. The next day.
Had you and Marina ever had any disputes or quarrels between yourselves?
Mrs. PAINE. I have referred to just one time when she in a sense was taking me to task on the matter of whose property their address was, I just mentioned that, that is the only time I recall.
Mr. JENNER. That is the incident in which you--
Mrs. PAINE. Following the November 5th meeting with Mr. Hosty.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Hosty.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Senator COOPER. You had said that, I believe you said, prior to the assassination you considered Lee Oswald as being violent or dangerous?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, now I have said that the thought crossed my mind once in relation to myself.
Senator COOPER. What caused that?
Mrs. PAINE. That he might be violent, because I thought he might resent my stepping in to do for his wife what he was not doing.
Senator COOPER. What made you think he would be violent about it if he wasn't caring about taking care of her?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, I wanted to satisfy myself, and I did then. The thought crossed my mind before I went to New Orleans for the second time as I have referred to it in a conversation with Mr. Rainey, before I went to New Orleans and then seeing him and changing my opinion some about him, I felt that he would not be violent or angry with me for this offer, and then proceeded with it, and this is the only--
Senator COOPER. I can understand why a person might be angry about something. But what about him led you to believe that he might be violent?
Mrs. PAINE. There was nothing that I could put my finger on. On the contrary my general impression was not of a man who would break out in sudden marked violence. He argued with his wife, and was distinctly unpleasant with her.
Senator COOPER. I believe you said the other day in answer to a question by Congressman Boggs that you held the opinion now that he did fire the rifle at the President.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I believe that is so but I don't know.
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Senator COOPER. From this vantage point, is there anything about him now which you think of which seems consistent with the fact that he, that you believe he did shoot the President, President Kennedy?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, what has led me to the conclusion that he did shoot President Kennedy is the massive circumstantial evidence that surrounds his relationship or where he was, what he had at the time of the assassination. Perhaps we should get into the matter of motive.
Senator COOPER. In other words, a person's personality, is there anything you can think of now which would change your mind or change the viewpoint that you held previously that he wasn't violent?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I still can recall no incident that I saw, nothing or thought at the time, with this small exception of the one reference to Mrs. Rainey that--
and that was a conjecture in reference to myself. Nothing that violent or indeed that insane.
Senator COOPER. Was it your opinion that Mrs. Oswald was shaken by the assassination and by the fact that her husband was charged with it?
Mrs. PAINE. She was certainly shaken on the afternoon when the policemen were out there, when he was at that time just charged with the shooting of Tippit. I never saw her after he was charged with the shooting of the President.
Senator COOPER. One other question: I think you said when Marguerite Oswald, Lee Oswald's mother, came to your house, and the Life people later appeared, you spoke of that, did you say that both of them, both Marina and Marguerite, seemed to be interested in making some kind of a deal with Life in order to get money?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Senator COOPER. Or were you speaking only of Marguerite Oswald?
Mrs. PAINE. I was speaking only of Marguerite Oswald. I could add here that Marina appeared to me to want to be courteous and polite toward her mother-in-law, and wished to go along with whatever wishes Marguerite had on the subject.
Senator COOPER. Has anyone tried to make any kind of a business transaction for your statement or story
Mrs. PAINE. At that time or since?
Senator COOPER. Since.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
SENATOR COOPER. What?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. The Commission has a copy of an article that was written for Look which was not published and will not be.
Senator COOPER. Has that been testified?
Mr. JENNER. Will not be what?
Mrs. PAINE. Published. It is now my property and I don't plan to, I have no plans presently, at least.
Senator COOPER. Just for the record, have you entered into any kind of business transaction by which you would be paid for a story about this assassination?
Mrs. PAINE. I will not be paid for any story I write, and I am certain now
I don't want to write any such story. I have, however, worked with Miss Jessamyn West, who is an author for an article which will appear in Time and Red Book magazine, or I expect it will. She is writing that, she talked to me.
Mr. JENNER. She approached you on that article?
Mrs. PAINE. No one approached me in that article. Was already decided before I was asked. But that is-----
Mr. JENNER. Who decided it?
Mrs. PAINE. I had implied that I would be willing to do this, but not to anyone I thought was making an offer. This is aside.
Mr. JENNER. This was an offer to help the subject of the interview being interviewed?
Mrs. PAINE. All I really should say in clarification here is that there was bad communication between Red Book, Miss West and myself, and she was under the impression that I had agreed to do this before she had in fact been contacted, but then the fact of Red Book and Miss West thinking that this was something I had agreed to I then did agree to do it.
(Discussion off the record.)
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Senator COOPER. Back on the record.
Have you been paid or promised any monetary consideration for any article that you might write or you might assist someone else in writing about your experiences connected with the Oswalds?
Mrs. PAINE. The complete answer to that would be that I received a $300 advance from Look magazine for helping in the writing of that article which will not appear, and that I have been told I will receive $500 from Red Book magazine for helping Miss West in writing that, and if you want, I will tell you what I think about what I want to do with this money but perhaps that is not pertinent.
Senator COOPER. If you want to?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, I plan to give it away.
Mr. JENNER. You mean give it to charity?
Mrs. PAINE. To charity.
Senator COOPER. That is all I have.
Mr. JENNER. You have referred to a Look magazine article in the preparation of which you have assisted. I have marked as Commission Exhibit No. 460 a document which I received from Mr. George Harris, after you had authorized me to call him and ask for it.
Would you glance through that and verify that that is the article in the final form?
You have examined Commission Exhibit 460. Is that the Look article to which you have made reference in your testimony here this afternoon?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And that article, however, is not one to be published?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Did you look over that article in this final form and approve it as to text and statements made in it?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; although I don't think the final draft had been done or final approval given before it was decided that it would not be used.
Mr. JENNER. But as this exhibit stands, Commission Exhibit No. 460, the text and statements that are made in there had your approval?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; they are, of course, not all of my words.
Mr. JENNER. Of course, not. The article was written by?
Mrs. PAINE. By George Harris, who is a senior editor on Look magazine, and he wrote it from typed copy he had directly as he had taken it from my telling.
Mr. JENNER. So it is, to use somewhat of a vernacular, it is ghost written?
Mrs. PAINE. It is ghost written but most of it is my words.
Mr. JENNER. I offer in evidence, as Commission Exhibit No. 460, the document we have just identified.
Senator COOPER. It will be received in evidence.
(The document referred to, heretofore identified as Commission Exhibit No. 460, was received in evidence.)
Mr. JENNER. Do you have an interest in the Russian language as has appeared
from your testimony?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, are you now or have you ever been a member of the Communist Party?
Mrs. PAINE. I am not now and have never been a member of the Communist Party.
Mr. JENNER. Do you now or have you ever had any leanings which we might call Communist Party leanings.
Mrs. PAINE. No; on the contrary.
Mr. JENNER. Are you now or have you ever been a member of any groups which you consciously recognize as being, let us say, Communist front groups?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I have not and I would be quite certain I had not been unconsciously a member of any such groups.
Mr. JENNER. I take it from your response that you have an aversion to communism?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I do.
Mr. JENNER. And would be at pains and have been at pains during your adult life, at least, to avoid any association with or any advancement of communism as we know and abhor it?
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Mrs. PAINE. Yes; that is right.
If I may say here, I am offended by the portion of the Communist doctrine that thinks violence is necessary to achieve its aims. I am likewise offended by the doctrine that any means to what is considered a good end is legitimate.
I, on the contrary, feel that there is no justification at any time for deception, and the Communists, as I have observed their activity, have no reluctance to deceive, and this offends me seriously.
Mr. JENNER. In that thinking, violence also impels you against the Communist faith?
Mrs. PAINE. It certainly does.
Mr. JENNER. Or political doctrine?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; their espousal of violence repels me.
Mr. JENNER. You have an interest in the Russian language?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I do.
Mr. JENNER. Now, the members of the Commission, all of them are interested in how you came to have your interest in the Russian language, and they would like to have you indicate when it first arose and under what circumstances and what impelled you to have an interest in the Russian language; start from the very beginning of your life in that connection--that episode in your life?
Mrs. PAINE. All right. To be really the very beginning I will start and say I have been interested in other languages before being interested in Russian. I studied French in high school, German in college, and got a tutor to study Yiddish when I was working with a group that spoke that language.
Mr. JENNER. That is the Golden Age group of the Young--
Mrs. PAINE. Men and Young Women--
Mr. JENNER. Hebrew Association in Philadelphia?
Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. At that time you were employed by?
Mrs. PAINE. That organization.
Mr. JENNER. By that organization. And were you doing work in connection with this plan of Antioch College?
Mrs. PAINE. No; that was after I had completed my work at Antioch.
Mr. JENNER. I see.
Mrs. PAINE. Well, I do believe I did get some credit for that year at Antioch
although I had completed my academic work, I was still getting some credit for my job credit, that is.
Mr. JENNER. All right, proceed.
Mrs. PAINE. And then I was working with a group of young Quakers, had been indeed for sometime.
Mr. JENNER. Please fix a little more definite time, please?
Mrs. PAINE. I began my interest in young Quakers in 1947.
Mr. JENNER. In 1947?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. As quite a young girl?
Mrs. PAINE. When my interest also began in the Quaker church.
Mr. JENNER. You were then what, you were 19 years old?
Mrs. PAINE. I was going on 15, as a matter of fact.
Mr. JENNER. Going on 15?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. You were going to high school?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Where were you living then?
Mrs. PAINE. I was living in Columbus, Ohio.
Mr. JENNER. And you became interested in the Quaker faith then or at least
in the Quaker activity?
Mrs. PAINE. Both.
Mr. JENNER. And were you a member of the Friends Society, young people's society in Columbus at that time?
Mrs. PAINE. I attended the meeting which is the Quaker church in Columbus. They didn't have enough young people to have a society in that particular meeting. But then in college I became active in the national young Friends group.
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Mr. JENNER. What is the official name of that?
Mrs. PAINE. The name at that time was the Young Friends Committee of North America. It included Canada young Friends. And in this connection I was, I served, as Chairman or Conference Coordinator for a conference of young friends that was held in 1955.
Mr. JENNER. Where?
Mrs. PAINE. At Quaker Haven, Ind.
Mr. JENNER. Did you attend that?
Mrs. PAINE. I did. It was at this conference, toward the latter part, part of really arising out of a discussion of the need for communication and more of it between the United States and the Soviet Union by no means the bulk of the business of this conference, but a small committee of interested people, was working on this matter.
Mr. JENNER. Are these interested young people?
Mrs. PAINE. These are all young Friends.
Mr. JENNER. And you were then of what age, 1955. 23?
Senator COOPER. 9 years ago?
Mrs. PAINE. 22, going on 23, that is right.
Mr. JENNER. 22 going on 23. Was this in the summer time?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Vacation period?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. I see. By the way, Mrs. Paine, you had been to England, had you not, in some activity of the Friends Society back in 1952?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. That was what meeting did you attend, and as a delegate of what?
Mrs. PAINE. I was selected as a delegate of the Lake Erie Association which
is the larger group to which my meeting in Columbus belonged.
Mr. JENNER. Your Quaker meeting?
Mrs. PAINE. My Quaker meeting. To go as a delegate to the Friends world conference held at Oxford, England, in the summer of 1952. I also attended a young Friends conference held in Reading, England, just before the larger conference. Shall I return now to the conference at Quaker Haven in 1955?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. PAINE. I felt a calling in Friends terminology at that conference.
Mr. JENNER. An impulse, a desire, is that what you mean, a pulling?
Mrs. PAINE. More than that, that God asked of me that I study language, and I can't say that it was specifically said what language. This was at the time that plans first began for encouraging an exchange of young people between the Soviet Union and the United States, and I became active with the committee planning that, and from that planning there was an exchange, three Soviet young people came to this country and four young Quakers went to the Soviet Union, and I was very much impressed with the dearth of people in this country who could speak Russian. Here was a need for communication with people we had to live with, although we disagreed with them, certainly disagreed with the government, and the first elements of communication, the language, was not available among most young people, and even among older people in the country. My letter of June 18, 1959, marked Commission Exhibit No. 459-1 contains a statement of my motivation to study Russian. So it was this really that started me upon a course of study in Russian. Then once started, I was more propelled by my interest in the language itself. Shall I describe what training I have had?
Mr. JENNER. Well, please. I want to cover something else before that. I offer Commission Exhibit No. 459-1 in evidence.
The CHAIRMAN. It is received.
Mr. JENNER. Was there a movement also in this connection which you are now describing of a pen pal communication between young people here in America and young people in Russia?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have anything to do with that?
Mrs. PAINE. There was a subcommittee of this Young Friends Committee of North America which was called East-West Contact Committee.
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Mr. JENNER. Were you the leader of that committee?
Mrs. PAINE. I was not. But I was chairman of a committee of that committee, which was called Correspondence, and I helped make contact between young people in this country who wished to write to someone in the Soviet Union, and an organization of young people in Moscow which found pen pals for these young Americans.
We particularly wanted to go through an official organization so as to be certain we were not endangering or putting suspicion upon anyone, any young person in the Soviet Union to whom we were writing. We felt if they picked their own people that would lessen the suspicion of the Soviet person.
Mr. JENNER. Were you active in that group?
Mrs. PAINE. I was chairman of that for sometime.
Mr. JENNER. Did you take part in the pen pal correspondence yourself?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did.
Mr. JENNER. And do you recall now the names of the Russian young people or Russian young person with whom you communicate, or sought communication?
Mrs. PAINE. I recall I wrote a few letters to a person named Ella, I have forgotten her last name, and I don't believe I have the correspondence still. If I did, I don't any more.
Mr. JENNER. If you once had it?
Mrs. PAINE. If I once had it, I don't have it now in my possession, and then that stopped because she stopped writing. I wrote and got another correspondent whose name is Nina Aparina, with whom I corresponded up to last spring, I would say, and I haven't--yes; and I haven't heard anything from her for about a year.
Mr. JENNER. What was the nature of the correspondence, particularly with respect to subject matter?
Mrs. PAINE. We discussed?
Mr. JENNER. In this letter period?
Mrs. PAINE. We discussed our mutual interest in language. She was a teacher of the English language. She married an engineer during the time of our correspondence.
Mr. JENNER. Russian?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; of course.
Mr. JENNER. Russian citizen?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. We exchanged a magnetic tape recording one time. I sent her one and she sent one with music and readings, hers were music and readings in Russian, and mine was similar in English as part of language study aid.
My last communication said she was expecting a baby last June but I haven't heard anything from her since that communication, as I say, probably a year ago that came.
Mr. JENNER. Now all of your activity, this activity, of correspondence between you and any citizen in Russia, was part of it, originated in the Young Friends group, an activity to supply here a meeting with, communication by, Americans with citizens in Russia, and then latterly in your communication with the lady you have last mentioned, a mutual exchange between the two of you here to improve her English and you to improve your Russian?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right. The committee was formed much the same time that our State Department made arrangements with the Soviets for cultural exchange, and I think our Purposes were similar but, of course, outside the government.
Mr. JENNER. Now the three Russian students who came over here, did you have any contact with them?
Mrs. PAINE. I met them once at an open meeting in North Philadelphia.
Mr. JENNER. Were a number of other people present?
Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes.
Mr. JENNER. And that is the only contact you had with them?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Proceed.
Mrs. PAINE. Except that I read a book that was written by one of these students nearly a year after he had gone back to the Soviet Union which I found most disillusioning, I must say, in which it was pure Propaganda.
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Mr. JENNER. He sought to report what his experiences here were in America?
Mrs. PAINE. He sought to report on this trip that he had taken, that we had worked to achieve.
Mr. JENNER. Did you regard him as fair or accurate, that is, what you read?
Mrs. PAINE. What I read of the book he wrote was extremely inaccurate and unfair.
Mr. JENNER. Did it misrepresent America as you knew it?
Mrs. PAINE. Misrepresented America, certainly.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mrs. PAINE. Shall I go on now to what I have studied?
Mr. JENNER. Yes. Have you had any formal education in the study of the Russian language?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I have. I attended a concentrated summer course at the University of Pennsylvania in the summer of 1957 where, during the course of 6 weeks, we completed a first year college Russian text.
Mr. JENNER. What year did you say that was?
Mrs. PAINE. I believe that was 1957.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mrs. PAINE. And then I had difficulty keeping that up, keeping Russian up over the next year, but the following year I was no longer teaching and took a course at Berlitz School of Languages in Philadelphia in Russian, and improved by ability to converse, and it helped me to recall what I had gone through rather too fast in this accelerated course.
I then applied for the summer course at the Middlebury College summer language school in Middlebury, Vt., in the summer of 1959 and attended that 7-week course. At Middlebury they required that you speak nothing but the language you are studying the entire time, both in class and out. This was very valuable though very difficult.
Mr. JENNER. Who was your instructor?
Mrs. PAINE. There?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. PAINE. I took three courses. Natalie Yershov.
Mr. JENNER. You were relating, Mrs. Paine, you recalled one of your instructors at Middlebury?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall the name of any other?
Mrs. PAINE. Offhand I can't recall. I recall certainly the director of the school but he was not an instructor of mine.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have a roommate?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did.
Mr. JENNER. What was your roommate's name?
Mrs. PAINE. Her name was Helen Mamikonian.
Mr. JENNER. Is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Do you still have contact with her?
Mrs. PAINE. It has been a long time since I have written but we have exchanged Christmas cards.
Mr. JENNER. Christmas cards and an occasional letter?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Where does she live?
Mrs. PAINE. She lives and works in Boston where she is a teacher of Russian language at Simmons College, as I recall.
Mr. JENNER. Did she at one time live in New York City?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; her home is New York. She spent her high school years there after having immigrated from France, and I believe her mother still lives there, is a tutor for the Berlitz School in Russian in New York.
Mr. JENNER. Her mother is?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Now we have your study at Pennsylvania, University of Pennsylvania, and your study at the Berlitz School in Philadelphia, was it?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
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Mr. JENNER. And your study at Middlebury College. What additional formal or at least let us say semiformal instruction or education have you had in the Russian language?
Mrs. PAINE. I then moved to the Dallas area to the place where I presently live in Irving, and then I would guess it was early in 1960 I took up some study again at the Berlitz School in Dallas, completed a course which I had paid for in Philadelphia, and then went on after that with Private lessons with Mrs. Gravitis, who has already been mentioned.
Mr. JENNER. Is Mrs. Gravitis also an instructor in the Berlitz School in Dallas?
Mrs. PAINE. I met her because she was an instructor for a short time there and I think is yet on call to them as an instructor.
Mr. JENNER. Does that cover your formal education in the Russian language?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it does.
Mr. JENNER. Now, are you a teacher of Russian?
Mrs. PAINE. I have one student whom I teach beginning Russian.
Mr. JENNER. Is that a connection with an established institution?
Mrs. PAINE. It began in connection with an established institution during the summer of 1963, at the Saint Marks School of Texas in Dallas, Tex.
Mr. JENNER. And you were the teacher of Russian in the Saint Marks School during that quarter or summer term?
Mrs. PAINE. Summer term.
Mr. JENNER. And arising out of that has been your engagement as a tutor, is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Who is your student?
Mrs. PAINE. My student's name is Bill H-U-T-K-I-N-S.
Mr. JENNER. Is he, what is he, a young man?
Mrs. PAINE. I am sorry, it is H-O-O-T-K-I-N-S.
Mr. JENNER. How old is he?
Mrs. PAINE. He turned 15 in the summer.
Mr. JENNER. Is he a native American so far as you know?
Mrs. PAINE. As far as I know, yes.
Mr. JENNER. Is it your--has it been also your desired objective on your part to teach Russian as a regular instructor or teacher in the public or private schools?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I would like to do that.
Mr. JENNER. That is still your hope and desire?
Mrs. PAINE. It interests me very much.
Mr. JENNER. And it has been for sometime an objective of yours, has it?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. I will ask you a couple of general questions. First, I will probably repeat this when I examine you in your deposition also, Mrs. Paine, but I desire to have it on this record before the Commission, is there anything that has come to your mind that you would like to relate to the Commission which you think might be helpful to it in its deliberations in consideration of the serious problems and events into which they are inquiring?
Mrs. PAINE. There are a few small items I hope we will get into tomorrow.
Mr. JENNER. Would you please state them as to subject matter, at least. Would they take very long for you to state?
Mrs. PAINE. I will make an attempt to be brief here. I recall that Lee once used my typewriter to type something else beside this note, is that what you want?
Mr. JENNER. Yes; would you turn and direct your remarks to the Chairman, to Senator Cooper, so we can all hear you and you might speak up a lit fie bit, your voice has been dropping.
Mrs. PAINE. I am tired.
I recall that Lee once asked to borrow my typewriter and used it to type something I judged was a letter at sometime prior to this day November 9, when he typed a letter which we have a rough draft. This is probably no use to you.
Mr. JENNER. That is what I call the Mexico letter?
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Mrs. PAINE. That is what you call it, all right.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Give the exhibit.
Mrs. PAINE. It is Exhibit No. 103.
Mr. JENNER. Thank you.
Mrs. PAINE. I want to know whether you want to inquire of me my account of Secret Service agents having come and asked me, having come out to the house after the assassination to ask me if I had ever seen a particular note which they had. And I have later assumed that this is what has been referred to in the press as the note written by Oswald at the time of the attempt on Walker and if you want I will make it clear all I know in relation to that.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; I recall that incident and I wish you would, please.
Mrs. PAINE. And then the other thing is simply to invite the members of the Commission, but if it is a deposition I can't do that then, to feel free to ask me any questions that are not settled in their mind or clear regarding the separation which existed between myself and my husband, if that is troublesome in any way or if there is anything in which--
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, if that doesn't embarrass you, members of the Commission have voiced to me some interest in that, that is an interest only to the extent they are seeking to resolve in their mind who Ruth Paine is and if I may use the vernacular, what makes her tick, so would you relate that now on the Commission record, please?
Mrs. PAINE. All right. I might say that I think it is important and relevant here because if I had not been separated from my husband I would have not as I think I have already testified, made an invitation to anyone to join the family circle, especially in such a small house.
Really, I might ask if you have questions it might be easier for me to answer
Mr. JENNER. Perhaps we can bring it along in this fashion. What was the cause of the separation between your husband and yourself, in your view?
Mrs. PAINE. In my view, of course, yes. He expressed himself as not really interested in remaining married to me. We never quarreled. We never indeed have had any serious difference of opinion except I want to live with him and he is not that interested in being with me, would be our single difference of opinion.
And in the spring of 1962 1 felt that something more definite should be done, and asked Michael why he continued to live with me if he felt that way about it, and he said that it was easier and cost less, and I said that wasn't a good enough reason for a marriage, and asked him to be out of the house in the fall when I returned from summer vacation that year.
Mr. JENNER. That was 1962?
Mrs. PAINE. 1962, yes. I would say our marriage is marked both by mutual honesty, that is exceptional, and by a lack of overt or interior strife except that it hasn't quite come together as a mutual partnership.
My mother recently said to me that "If you would just look only at what Michael does there is nothing wrong with your marriage at all. It is just what he says", and I concur with her opinion on that, that he is so scrupulously honest with his own feelings that, and really too hard on himself in a sense, that he states verbally this is not feeling that he loves me or loves me enough, but in fact his actions toward me are totally acceptable to me.
Mr. JENNER. Is he gracious and kind and attentive to you?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Has he always been?
Mrs. PAINE. Insufficiently attentive, I would say, but he is always kind and thoughtful.
Mr. JENNER. Have you had any financial differences of opinion?
Mrs. PAINE. We have not.
Mr. JENNER. He even during this period of time when you were separated, he voluntarily supported the household and you lived in a manner and style that suited you or to which you had become accustomed?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, that is right.
Mr. JENNER. You had no arguments about matters of that nature?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
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Mr. JENNER. Your husband has returned to your home?
Mrs. PAINE. He is living there now.
Mr. JENNER. How long has that been?
Mrs. PAINE. He has been staying there since the night of November 22. He didn't move his belongings in until the middle of the following week.
Mr. JENNER. Would you say this is a reconciliation?
Mrs. PAINE. I can't say that.
Mr. JENNER. You cannot.
Do you wish to say any more in the statement of yours?
Mrs. PAINE. Not unless you have questions. I think it is an accurate statement of the marriage.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
What brought this forth was my asking you if you had anything you would like to bring before the Commission.
Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Are there any others?
Mrs. PAINE. I can think of nothing else.
Mr. JENNER. To the best of your present recollection are the statements and the testimony you gave, you have given so far, before the Commission consistent with Statements you have given to the FBI, to Secret Service, to magazine reporters, editors, to anyone?
Mrs. PAINE. The statements I have given here are fully consistent with anything I have said before except that the statement here has been much fuller than any single previous statement.
Mr. JENNER. And you have testified to matters and things before the Commission about which, which you did not relate or even had occasion to relate in your mind, at least, to FBI agents, to Secret Service agents and to the others that you have identified in general terms?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, you and I had the opportunity, you afforded me the privilege of speaking with you before your testimony commenced, before the Commission. And also I think the first day of your testimony you were gracious enough to return here to the Commission room and we spent several hours talking?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. As a matter of fact, we left around 12:30, a quarter of one in the morning, did we not?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, that is right, we did.
Mr. JENNER. Now, recalling back to those periods of conferences with me, do you have any feeling or notion whatsoever that any of your testimony before the Commission was in any degree whatsoever, inconsistent with anything you related to me?
Mrs. PAINE. Oh, no; I don't think so, not in any way.
Mr. JENNER. Not in any way. Do you have any feeling whatsoever that during the course of my conferences with you, outside this Commission, that I influenced or sought to shape your testimony in any respect?
Mrs. PAINE. No. Clearly I felt no influence from you.
Mr. JENNER. All of the statements that you related to me were free and voluntary on your part, and not given under any coercion, light or heavy, as the case might be, on my part.
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, there are some additional matters we wish to examine the witness about and Representative Ford has given me a rather long list of questions he asked me to cover. He regretted that was necessary because of his enforced absence, and Mrs. Paine has agreed that she would be available in the morning, and I may examine her by way of deposition before a reporter under oath, and with that understanding of the Commission, of you, Mr. Chairman, I would at this moment as far as the staff is concerned, close the formal testimony of Mrs. Paine before the Commission, with advice to you, sir, that tomorrow morning I will cover additional matters by way of deposition.
Senator COOPER. As I understand the matters you will go into by deposition will not be any new evidence in the sense of substance but more to
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Mr. JENNER. I can tell you what they are, it will be her background, some of which she has now given in regard to her study of the Russian language.
More formal proof of her calendar, and her address book. Also her general background which I have already mentioned. Some correspondence between herself and her mother, and the items that Mrs. Paine has now mentioned she would like to relate herself.
Mrs. PAINE. One of which we took care of already.
Mr. JENNER. One of which we took care of. We will cover those and I was going to ask her questions tomorrow, some of which we have already covered of Lee Harvey Oswald's personality and habits and actions.
I am going to ask here about Mrs. Shirley Martin, who has appeared on the scene since the assassination, and appears to be a self-appointed investigator, and to the extent that there has been any contact between Mrs. Paine and Mrs. Shirley Martin, and then inquire, I may not even do this because we have covered a very great deal of the conversations and discussions between Marina and Mrs. Paine on various possible subjects, and I can see from my list we have covered many of them already.
Senator COOPER. Let it be ordered that evidence will be taken this way, with this reservation, of course, if the Commission determines after studying the deposition that it would be necessary for her to be called again, you would be willing to come again before the Commission to testify.
Mrs. PAINE. I would certainly be willing if there is any need for my coming.
Mr. JENNER. In addition to this, Mr. Chairman, as I think already appears of record, I will come to Mrs. Paine's home in Irving, Tex., sometime on Monday or Monday evening or if she finds it more convenient, on Tuesday of next week to inquire of her with a court reporter present relative to the curtain red package, and I also will make a tour of her home and as we move about her home the reporter will record the conversation between us, questions and answers.
Senator COOPER. Are there any further questions?
Mr. JENNER. That is all. Thank you, sir.
Senator COOPER. All right, then we will stand in recess subject to the call of the Chairman of the Commission.
(Translations of letters introduced in evidence in the course of Mrs. Paine's testimony are reproduced in the exhibit volumes. )
TESTIMONY Volume IX
Hearings Before the President's Commission
on the
Assassination of President Kennedy
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thursday, March 19, 1964-Afternoon Session
TESTIMONY OF RUTH HYDE PAINE RESUMED
The President's Commission reconvened at 2:05 p.m.
Mr. JENNER. May we proceed, Mr. Chairman?
Mr. McCLOY. Yes; we are all ready whenever you are. You are still under affirmation.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, may I hand you the document again?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. It has been marked Commission Exhibit 426. You were making a comparison with the block printing on that document with like block printing that you testified yesterday had been written in your address book. I have forgotten the exhibit number, but in your address book which you have before you----
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And the printing in your address book to which you were addressing yourself was what?
Mrs. PAINE. His printing of the place where he worked in April of 1963.
Mr. JENNER. And that is Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall?
Mrs. PAINE. Right.
Mr. JENNER. You were comparing that printing which you saw him put in your address book with what?
Mrs. PAINE. The printing on this application for Texas driver's license.
Mr. JENNER. And any particular printing on that application?
Mrs. PAINE. Was put in in pen. I do observe that the printing here uses a mixture of upper case and lower case letters, as does the printing in my phone book, most of it being block upper case.
Mr. JENNER. The form and shape of the printing in both of the documents is--
Mrs. PAINE. Is similar.
Mr. JENNER. Similar. All right, thank you. Mr. Chairman, because of the point raised by Representative Ford with particular reference to the word "photographer" which, by the way, is misspelled, it is spelled "f-o-t-o-g-r-a-p-e-r," and things of that sort do occur as you have already noted in many of his writings, very bad misspellings.
Mr. McCLOY. Yes, his grammar seems to be better than this spelling.
Mr. JENNER. Yes. This form is an official form printed of the Texas State License Bureau entitled "Application for Texas driver's license," on the line provided for "name" there appears over "first name", "Lee"; over "middle name", "Harvey"; and "last name", "Oswald."
The second set of spaces, provisions for address, birth, and occupation. He gives as his address, 2545 West Fifth Street, Irving, Tex. Was that the address of their home when you first became acquainted with them?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Is the address 2545 Irving Street familiar to you?
Mrs. PAINE. I think it is 2515.
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Mr. JENNER. Perhaps we will have to have it interpreted by someone else. It looks like a "4" to me, but it may be a "1." This birthday, October 18, 1939. The age last birthday 24, and then under "occupation" appears the word I have already related. Sex, male; color of eyes, gray; weight, 146 pounds; race, the letter "C"; color of hair, brown; height, 5 foot 9 inches.
Mr. McCLOY. Were you about to comment?
Mrs. PAINE. I was interested in his comment on his race.
Mr. JENNER. I assume C means Caucasian. There are a series of questions, printed questions on the form, and he answered them, they are from 1 to 12, as follows:
"Question No. 1" he answers in the negative, "Have you ever held a Texas license?"
Question No. 2. All these are in the negative.
"Have you ever been examined for a Texas license?
"Have you ever held a license in any other State?
"Have you ever been denied a license?
"Has your license and driving privilege ever been suspended, revoked, or canceled?
"Have you ever been convicted of driving while intoxicated, failure to stop and render aid, aggravated assault with a motor vehicle, negligent homicide with a motor vehicle or murder with a motor vehicle?"
All answered in the negative.
"Have you ever been convicted of any other moving traffic violation?
"Have you ever been involved as a driver in a motor vehicle accident?
"Have you ever been subject to losses of consciousness or muscular control?
"Have you ever been addicted to the use of intoxicating liquor or narcotic drugs?
"Do you have any physical or mental defects?"
And, lastly: "Have you ever been a patient in a hospital for mental illness?"
The side as to the driving record, that is the reverse side, nothing appears thereon, and nothing in any portion of the form which deals with the record of his examination.
I am a little at a loss, Mr. Chairman, as to whether I should offer this in evidence at the present moment, because it is a document found among his effects in his room, and my statement of fact would be pure hearsay.
Mr. McCLOY. How did we get in possession of it?
Mr. JENNER. It was supplied to us by the FBI.
The document was turned over to the FBI. May I withhold offering the document in evidence? We may have another witness who will be able to qualify it.
Mr. McCLOY. Who can identify it?
Mr. JENNER. I am sure we will have a witness. We do want the document in evidence.
[Commission Exhibit No. 426 is also Commission Exhibit No. 112, vol. I, p. 113.]
Identifying as Commission Exhibit 427 a form of employee identification questionnaire of the Jaggars- Chiles-Stovall Co. Please examine Exhibit 427. I direct your attention to the signature in the lower left-hand corner. Are you familiar with that signature?
Mrs. PAINE. I can't say I am familiar with it.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever have any discussion with Lee Oswald relating to his obtaining of a position with Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And when did that discussion occur?
Mrs. PAINE. In New Orleans on the second trip, the end of September, when we talked about the possibility of Marina's coming back to have the baby in Texas where they could qualify as one year residents, he equipped me to show that he had been in Texas, and in Dallas for a year by giving me a receipt or part of a paycheck, I don't know just what it was, with the Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall name on it, in October.
Mr. JENNER. What was the purpose--
Mrs. PAINE. He was supplying me with documents that would admit her to Parkland Hospital as a patient. He gave me his--
Mr. JENNER. To show the necessary--
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Mrs. PAINE. That he had worked with Stovall.
Mr. JENNER. And the necessary residential period of time in Texas?
Mrs. PAINE. And the necessary residence.
Mr. JENNER. I see.
Did you take that document with you?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did.
Mr. JENNER. And what did you do with it?
Mrs. PAINE. Took it to Parkland Hospital. And subsequently returned it to him.
Mr. JENNER. For what purpose had you gone to Parkland Hospital?
Mrs. PAINE. For prenatal care and care at the time of the birth of Marina Oswald's second child.
Mr. JENNER. And is Parkland Hospital a public institution in Dallas?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. With the necessary residential period of time, Marina, if she had qualified in that respect, or did qualify then she could receive treatment with respect to the birth of her child either at no cost to her or at reduced cost, is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE. I understood it to be cost fitted to their ability to pay.
Mr. JENNER. And so you did, yourself, affirmatively arrange that?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right. What arrangement?
Mr. JENNER. Affirmatively. You did it yourself?
Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes.
Mr. JENNER. We have now reached the summer period of 1963, and covered some of it in part. My recollection of your testimony is that you vacationed in the summer of 1963.
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. You visited various members of your family up north?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You departed Irving, Tex., some time in July, is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE. I believe it was the 27th of July.
Mr. JENNER. And just tell us whom of your family you visited and where you visited, without telling us what you did.
Mrs. PAINE. I visited my mother-in-law and stepfather-in-law.
Mr. JENNER. That is Mr. and Mrs. Young, Arthur Young?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. In Paoli, Pa.?
Mrs. PAINE. I first went to Naushon Island off the coast of Massachusetts.
Mr. JENNER. Were you driving in the station wagon?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I was.
Mr. JENNER. With your children?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you went from there to where? Whom did. you visit next?
Mrs. PAINE. How detailed do you want to be?
Mr. JENNER. Just tell us whom you visited us all.
Mrs. PAINE. I stopped and saw Miss Mary Forman, in Connecticut, one night.
Mr. JESTER. She is an old friend of yours?
Mrs. PAINE. She is an old friend of mine from Columbus, Ohio, and went on then to Paoli the next day, and stayed there, again with the Youngs, until the early part of September.
Mr. McCLOY. Is that Paoli, Pa.?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Did you visit your mother and your father or either of them?
Mrs. PAINE. My father came to Paoli and visited me there.
Mr. JENNER. Did I ask you yesterday, Mrs. Paine, and please forgive me if this is a repetition, the occupation of your father.
Mrs. PAINE. He is an insurance underwriter; he composes the fine print.
Mr. JENNER. Was he at one time an actuary?
Mrs. PAINE. What does actuary mean?
Mr. JENNER. A man who computes the probabilities and works in connection with----
Mrs. PAINE. He may be. I am not certain exactly what his position is.
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Mr. JENNER. For what company, please?
Mrs. PAINE. The Nationwide Insurance Company.
Mr. JENNER. Where is there main office?
Mrs. PAINE. In Columbus, Ohio.
Mr. JENNER. Your father visited you at Paoli. Did you see your mother during that summer period?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did. I saw her briefly on the way to Naushon Island, and then again I saw her on my way back to the south and west, in Columbus, Ohio.
Mr. JENNER. At Columbus, she was living there then?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you see your sister on that trip?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did.
Mr. JENNER. And where did you see her?
Mrs. PAINE. She lives in suburban Washington, and I saw here there at her home. I also saw Michael's brother, and his wife, who live in Baltimore.
Mr. JENNER. Would you identify Michael's brother, please?
Mrs. PAINE. His name is Cameron Paine, C-a-m-e-r-o-n.
Mr. JENNER. What is his occupation or business?
Mrs. PAINE. He works with Social Security.
Mr. JENNER. For the State or the United States Government?
Mrs. PAINE. For the United States Government.
Mr. JENNER. That covers generally the people you visited that summer?
Mrs. PAINE. No. I also visited by brother, in Yellow Springs, Ohio.
Mr. JENNER. That is your brother, the physician?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right. I visited with friends in the Philadelphia area, while I was at Paoli.
Mr. JENNER. Do you mean by the term "friends" there to mean in the sense would mean friends?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Or members of the Friends Society?
Mrs. PAINE. Some were both, but I meant it as personal friends. And then I saw also friends, also both, capital F and small, in Richmond, Ind., and then from there I headed directly south to New Orleans. (Discussion off the record. )
Mrs. PAINE. Shall I go on to arrival at New Orleans?
Mr. JENNER. This spanned a period of a little over 2 months, did it not?
Mrs. PAINE. It was just short of 2 months total that I was away from my home in Irving.
Mr. JENNER. And in the meantime you had had the correspondence with Marina that you had related this morning, during the course of your going along, had you?
Mrs. PAINE. During that vacation she and I exchanged one letter each.
Mr. JENNER. Yes. Had you advised her that you were coming to New Orleans?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. For what purpose?
Mrs. PAINE. To visit. And to talk.
Mr. JENNER. About what?
Mrs. PAINE. To see if it was appropriate for her to come to my house for the birth of the baby.
Mr. JENNER. At that moment, at that time, when you were about to return or about to go to New Orleans, this concept was limited to her coming to be with you for the birth of the child?
Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. At least temporarily she abandoned the notion of joining you on a semipermanent basis?
Mrs. PAINE. It was abandoned. It was not taken up again.
Mr. JENNER. You arrived in New Orleans?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. The 20th of September.
Mr. McCLOY. Maybe you are going to get to this. Maybe I am anticipating
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your case, so to speak, but during these visits that you paid to your friends on this trip, did you talk about your association with Marina?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.; I did.
Mr. McCLOY. You did?
Mrs. PAINE. Quite a lot. It was rather an important thing to me.
Mr. JENNER. I have some questions to put to Mrs. Paine on that subject, but they are in the area of the collateral that I spoke of this morning, so I did not go into them at the moment.
Now, starting with your arrival in New Orleans, you got there in the morning or afternoon?
Mrs. PAINE. I arrived midafternoon, as I remember.
Mr. JENNER. And you went directly to their home, did you?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. What did you find when you reached the home?
Mrs. PAINE. I was expected. They had groceries bought.
Mr. JENNER. Who was home?
Mrs. PAINE. Marina and Lee, and the baby June.
Mr. JENNER. I don't have a calendar before me. The 20th of September is what day of the week?
Mrs. PAINE. Is a Friday.
Mr. JENNER. 1963?
Mrs. PAINE. I spent the night there that night and the succeeding 2 nights. Lee who bought the groceries while I was there, was host. At one point Mrs. Ruth Kloepfer, who has been previously mentioned, came and visited with her sister excuse me, with her two daughters. This was after I had made a telephone call to her.
Mr. JENNER. These daughters were adults or were they children?
Mrs. PAINE. The daughters were grown daughters.
Mr. JENNER. Grown?
Mrs. PAINE. In college, college-age daughters, and one had been studying Russian, didn't know very much. I was impressed with the role that Lee took of the general host, talking with them, looking over some slides that one of the daughters had brought of her trip, recent trip to Russia, showing sights that they recognized, I guess, in Moscow.
Mr. JENNER. That the girls recognized?
Mrs. PAINE. No; that Lee and Marina recognized of Moscow, or Lee did, at least. And he was very outgoing and warm and friendly. He seemed in good spirits that weekend. I found him--he made a much better impression on me, I will say, that weekend than the last weekend I had seen him, which was in May.
I could see, and it was the first time that I felt that he was concerned about his wife's physical welfare-and- about where she could go to have the baby, and he seemed distinctly relieved to consider the possibility of her going to Dallas County and getting care through Parkland Hospital, and clearly pleased that I wanted to offer this, and pleased to have her go, which relieved my mind a good deal.
I hadn't wanted to have such an arrangement come about without his being interested in having it that way.
Mr. JENNER. During the course of this, did you say you were there 3 days?
Mrs. PAINE. Three nights, two days.
Mr. JENNER. Two days and three nights; there was then a discussion between yourself and Marina, yourself on the one hand, Marina and Lee on the other, in which it was determined that Marina would return with you to Irving, Tex., for the purpose of having the birth of her child in Irving?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. And Lee did participate in those discussions?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, during the course of the time you were there, was there any discussion of the fact that Lee was at that time jobless and would be seeking a position?
Mrs. PAINE. I knew from Marina's letters that he was out of work.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
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Mrs. PAINE. We did have one short conversation and this was in English. I began it. He was willing to proceed in English.
Mr. JENNER. This is one of the few occasions in which he permitted himself to speak with you in English?
Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. I asked him if he thought his application was any impediment to his getting and keeping a job. He said he didn't know, and went on to say that he had already lost his job when he was arrested for passing out pro-Cuba literature here in New Orleans. And he said he spent the night in jail, and I said, "Did Marina know that?" "Yes, she knew it."
Mr. JENNER. I want you to finish the conversation.
Mrs. PAINE. This was as much of a revelation, accurate revelation of what he had done as I ever got from him.
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, Mrs. Paine. I am going to get into that with you.
I would like to have you finish the conversation first before you give your reaction.
Mrs. PAINE. That was the end of it.
Mr. JENNER. That was the end?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, with respect to the Fair Play for Cuba Committee activity, had you up to this moment heard of Lee Harvey Oswald's activities, if any, of any character and to any extent, with respect to the Fair Play for Cuba Committee?
Mrs. PAINE. I had not heard of any such activities.
The name of the committee was not mentioned. I did not know the name of the committee until it appeared in the newspapers after the assassination.
Mr. JENNER. Now, how did Lee Harvey Oswald describe that? What did he say?
Mrs. PAINE. He said that he was passing out pro-Castro or pro-Cuba literature, and that there were some anti-Castro people who also caused some disturbance, and that he had spent the night in jail.
Mr. JENNER. And did I understand you correctly to say that he assigned that as a possible--
Mrs. PAINE. No, on the contrary.
Mr. JENNER. As possibly having had some effect on his loss of position?
Mrs. PAINE. On the contrary, he made the point that he had already lost his job before this happened.
Mr. JENNER. That he had lost his position before the Fair Play for Cuba incident?
Mrs. PAINE. So that he did not know, he could not cite an instance where his application had made it difficult for him in his work.
Mr. JENNER. Had you had conversation with Marina prior to this time in which she might have suggested or did suggest that his application and his history of having gone to Russia and then returned to the United States as having an adverse effect on his efforts to obtain employment?
Mrs. PAINE. No; nothing of that nature was said.
Mr. JENNER. That was never discussed in your presence?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Was it ever discussed in your presence or raised in your presence by anybody other than Lee Harvey Oswald or Marina?
Mrs. PAINE. Not to my recollection.
Mr. JENNER. Was it ever discussed with you by anybody even though they weren't present? By "they" I mean Lee and Marina. You recall none? This is the first instance of any discussion of that character, and you raised it, did you?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. And you have exhausted your recollection of this particular conversation, have you?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. I gather from your testimony that you found the relations between Marina and Lee improved on this occasion?
Mrs. PAINE. They certainly appeared to be improved. The weekend time
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was certainly much more comfortable than the weekend in early May had been when I first was, in New Orleans.
Mr. JENNER. You described yesterday an irritability as between Marina and Lee when you were there in the spring?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And that that had continued during all the time you were in New Orleans. You found the situation different?
Mrs PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. On your return in the fall?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, you have already related the incident about touring Bourbon Street, and that occurred on this occasion, did it?
Mrs. PAINE. During that weekend, yes; those days.
Mr. JENNER. And Lee Harvey Oswald stayed home that evening or that day. It was late in the day, was it, rather than the evening?
Mrs. PAINE. It was early evening.
Mr. JENNER. Early evening. What did he do at home, do you know?
Mrs. PAINE. When we got back Marina noticed that the dishes had been cleaned up and put away. I take it back, they had been washed, not put away. And I believe he did some packing.
Mr. JENNER. In anticipation of your returning to Irving, Tex., with Marina?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
I was impressed during these 2 days with his willingness to help with the packing. He did virtually all the packing and all the loading of the things into the car. I simply thought that gentlemanly of him at the time. I have wondered since whether he wasn't doing it by preference to having me handle it.
Mr. JENNER. I was about to ask you your impression in that direction. Did he seem eager to do the packing?
Mrs. PAINE. He did, distinctly.
Mr. JENNER. Distinctly eager?
Mrs. PAINE. I recall he began as early, you see, as Saturday night and we left Tuesday morning.
Mr. JENNER. And you are aware of the fact he did some packing while you and Marina were on tour?
Mrs. PAINE. It couldn't have been Saturday night, because I only arrived on Saturday. More likely it was Sunday. Is Bourbon Street open on Sunday?
Mr. JENNER. Bourbon Street is open all the time.
Mrs. PAINE. Then it would have to be.
( Discussion off the record. )
Mr. JENNER. Did you have the feeling at the time that he was quite eager to do the packing?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And did you have the feeling it was just a touch out of the ordinary?
Mrs. PAINE. It didn't occur to me that it was.
Mr. JENNER. But on reflection now, you think it was out of the ordinary?
Mrs. PAINE. On reflection now I think it wasn't simply a gesture of the gentleman.
Mr. JENNER. But at the time it didn't arouse enough interest on your part to have a question in your mind?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I would have expected it of other men, but this was the first I saw him taking that much interest.
Mr. JENNER. It did arrest your attention on that score, in any event?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, you were there for 2 full days and 3 evenings. Would you tell us, conserving your description in your words, what did you do during
these 2 days and 3 nights. When I say "you", I am including all three of you.
Mrs. PAINE. Of course, afternoons we usually spent in rest for the children, having all small children, all of us having small children.
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Mr. JENNER. Whenever this doesn't include Lee Harvey Oswald would you be good enough to tell us?
Mrs. PAINE. When he was not present?
Mr. JENNER. That is right.
Mrs. PAINE. My recollection is that he was present most of the weekend. He went out to buy groceries, came in with a cheery call to his two girls, saying, "Yabutchski," which means girls, the Russian word for girls, as he came in the door. It was more like Harvey than I had seen him before. He remembered this time. I saw him reading a pocketbook.
Mr. JENNER. The Commission is interested in his readings. To the best of your ability to recall, tell us. You noticed it now, of course.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. I don't recall the title of it. I do recall that I loaned him a pocketbook at one point. I can't even recall what it was about. But I might if I saw it.
Mr. JENNER. Was it a book on any political subject?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Representative FORD. Was it an English book?
Mrs. PAINE. But it was in English, unless it was a parallel text of Russian-English short stories, something like that, I can't remember. It might have been Reid's Ten Days That Shook the World, or something like that, but I am not at all certain I would have thought he would have read that, anyway.
Representative FORD. Was it a book that you recall having had with you that summer? Ten Days--
Mrs. PAINE. It is a book I should still own, and I don't recall for sure whether I have that one.
Representative FORD. Ten Days That Shook the World?
Mrs. PAINE. I am very shaky in my memory. I had prepared a collection of books for the course in Russian at Saint Marks School, and they included history and literature and English.
Representative FORD. But you were still anticipating teaching Russian at Saint Marks School in Irving?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right, and this was just part of a bibliography of things of interest that included some of the more historical texts from many points of view regarding Soviet life.
Representative FORD. I interrupted you.
Mr. JENNER. I was asking you to tell us in general what was done during those 2 days and 3 nights.
Mrs. PAINE. We went out to wash diapers at the local washateria, and stayed while they were done and went back.
Mr. JENNER. You and Lee?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't think that he went. My recollection is that Marina and I went.
Mr. JENNER. He remained home?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you visit with any of their in-laws?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Did they visit while you were there?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Did they come there?
Mrs. PAINE. No. I have already referred to a visit from Mrs. Kloepfer, with her two girls which must have been the day before we left or Monday.
No, Sunday, it must have been Sunday. It wasn't much time altogether, because Sunday was the day before we left.
Mr. JENNER. Is Mrs. Kloepfer a native American?
Mrs. PAINE. I have no idea. She speaks natively.
Mr. JENNER. But she does have a command of the Russian language?
Mrs. PAINE. Oh, no, no. Her daughter has had 1 year of Russian in college, and was much too shy to begin to say anything, thoroughly overwhelmed by meeting someone who really spoke.
Mr. JENNER. I must have misinterpreted your testimony this morning.
Mrs. PAINE. Her daughter had visited in the Soviet Union just recently and had slides that she had taken that summer.
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Mr. JENNER. But Mrs. Kloepfer, as far as you are informed, had no command of the Russian language?
Mrs. PAINE. Absolutely none. She was the only person I knew to try to contact to ask if she knew or could find anyone in New Orleans who knew Russian, and she said she didn't know anyone, over the phone.
Mr. JENNER. I see.
Mrs. PAINE. And I, therefore, also tried to get Mrs. Blanchard to seek out someone who could talk to Marina.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Blanchard had no command of the Russian language, as far as you knew?
Mrs. PAINE. I would be certain she didn't.
Mr. JENNER. Have you described for us generally the course of events in the 2 days and 3 nights you were there?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, much of the last portion, some of the last portion of Sunday was spent packing up. It was a very well loaded automobile by then, because I already had a great many of my own, including a boat on the top of the car to which we attached the. playpen, stroller, and other things on top. I should describe in detail the packing, which was another thing that made me feel that he did care for his wife.
We left on Monday morning, yes, Monday morning early, the 23d, and it seemed to me he was very sorry to see her go. They kissed goodbye and we got in the car and I started down intending really to go no farther than the first gas station because I had a soft rear tire and I wasn't going to have a flat with this great pile of goods on top of not only my car but my spare, so I went down to the first gas station that was open a couple blocks down, and prepared to buy a fire.
Lee having watched us, walked down to the gas station and talked and visited while I arranged to have the tire changed, bought a new one and had it changed. I felt he wished or thought he should be offering something toward the cost of the tire. He said, "That sure is going to cost a lot, isn't it?" And I said, "Yes; but car owners have to expect that." This is as close as he came to offering financial help. But it was at least a gesture.
Mr. JENNER. Then there was no financial help given you?
Mrs. PAINE. There was no financial help.
Mr. JENNER. Given you by Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. In connection with the return of Marina to Irving, Tex.?
Mrs. PAINE. And he did not at this time give her, so far as I know, any small change or petty cash to take with her, whereas when he left her in late April to go to my house, she to go to my house, and he to go to New Orleans, he left $10 or so with her. She spent that on incidentals.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, did he ever, during all of the period of your acquaintance with the Oswalds, ever offer any reimbursement financially or anything at all to you?
Mrs. PAINE. No; he never offered anything to me.
Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion between you and him on the subject?
Mrs. PAINE. No. As close as we came to such discussion was saying that when they had enough money and perhaps after Christmas they would get an apartment again, and I judged, felt that he was saving money towards renting a furnished apartment for his family.
Mr. JENNER. Now, I used the term "offer." Did he ever offer? Did he in fact ever give you any money?
Mrs. PAINE. He in fact never gave me any money, either. He did give Marina.
Mr. JENNER. The one incident of which you are speaking or on other occasions?
Mrs. PAINE. There was that one incident in April.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. PAINE. He did give her, I think, $10, just prior, or some time close to the time of the assassination, because she planned to buy some shoes.
Mr. JENNER. Shoes for herself, or her children?
Mrs. PAINE. For herself, flat s. But when he gave that to her I am not certain. I do know that we definitely planned to go out on Friday afternoon, the 22d of November, to buy those shoes. We did not go.
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Mr. JENNER. That is you girls planned to do that?
Mrs. PAINE. She and I did; yes.
Representative FORD. Mr. Jenner, do you plan to ask questions about the process of packing of the car?
Mr. JENNER. Yes; I do. Now, this improvement in the attitude of Lee Harvey Oswald, arrested your deliberate attention--didn't it?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it did. It was really the first I had felt any sympathy for him at all.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have any feeling that he, in turn, felt that he might not be seeing Marina any more?
Mrs. PAINE. I had no feeling of that whatever.
Mr. JENNER. None whatsoever.
Mrs. PAINE. He told me that he was going to try to look for work in Houston, and possibly in Philadelphia; these were the two names he mentioned.
Mr. JENNER. We are interested in that, in this particular phase of the investigation. Did he make that statement in your presence, in the presence of Marina?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall.
Mr. JENNER. I take it that this was elicited by a discussion of the subject of his going to look for work after you girls had left, is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE. About what he would do after we left?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, would you repeat just what he said on that subject?
Mrs. PAINE. He told me that he was going to go to Houston to look for work, or possibly to Philadelphia.
Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about having any acquaintances or friends in either of those towns
Mrs. PAINE. He did. You recalled to my mind he said he had a friend in Houston.
Mr. JENNER. Did he mention other towns he might undertake to visit?
Mrs. PAINE. No; he didn't. Or any other friends.
Mr. JENNER. Was there any inference or did you infer from anything he said or which might have been said in your presence that after you girls left he intended to leave New Orleans? To look--
Mrs. PAINE. He was definitely planning to leave New Orleans after we left.
Mr. JENNER. Promptly?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You had that definite impression?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And he put it in terms of leaving New Orleans to go to Houston, or what was the other town?
Mrs. PAINE. Possibly Philadelphia.
Mr. JENNER. Possibly Philadelphia. Now, during all that weekend, was there any discussion of anybody going to Mexico?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Was the subject of Mexico discussed at any time and in any respect?
Mrs. PAINE. Not at any time nor any respect.
Mr. JENNER. On the trip back to Irving, Tex., did Marina say anything on the subject of Mexico?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Did you girls discuss what Lee was going to do during this interim period?
Mrs. PAINE. Only to the extent that he was looking for a job, but I think that discussion, my memory of it comes from a discussion with Lee rather than a discussion with her. I may say that we never talked about any particular time, he would see Marina again.
Mr. JENNER. You did not?
Mrs. PAINE. He kissed her a very fond goodbye, both at home and then again at the gas station, and I felt he cared and he would certainly see her. And this I recalled the other night. It should be put in here. As he was giving me this material, I have already mentioned, that indicated his claim to 1 year residence
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in Texas, I can't remember just what I said that elicited it from him, but some reference to, shall I say that you have gone, or how can I--what shall I say about the husband, where is the husband?
Mr. JENNER. Do the best in your own words.
Mrs. PAINE. Shall I say that you have gone away or away looking for work or something? What shall I say about you?
Mr. JENNER. This is Marina?
Mrs. PAINE. This is in English now, this one English conversation.
Mr. JENNER. By you?
Mrs. PAINE. Apropos of being prepared to admit her to Parkland. I asked, what shall I say about him, that he is gone or what?
He said, "Oh, no, that might appear that I had abandoned her."
And I was glad to hear him say that he didn't at all want it to appear or to feel of himself that he had abandoned her.
Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything as to what representations you might make to Parkland Hospital and other State authorities in that respect?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I don't recall.
Mr. JENNER. On the trip back to--may I defer the packing until Representative Ford returns--on the trip back to Irving, Tex., did you and Marina discuss the subject matter of Lee's going to Houston, Tex, or to Philadelphia to look for a job?
Mrs. PAINE. No; we didn't.
Mr. JENNER. At any time during the weekend you were in New Orleans or driving from New Orleans to Irving, Tex. was the friend identified, the supposed friend?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. In Houston, identified?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I remember wondering if there was one.
Mr. JENNER. You wondered at the time?
Mrs. PAINE. I wondered to myself if there was one.
Mr. JENNER. What made you wonder?
Mrs. PAINE. I may say, also, I wondered, as I have already indicated for the Commission, I had wondered, from time to time, whether this was a man who was working as a spy or in any way a threat to the Nation, and I thought, "This is the first I have heard anything about a contact. I am interested to know if this is a real thing or something unreal." And waited to see really whether I would learn any more about it. But this thought crossed my mind.
Mr. JENNER. It did? Now, many of my questions are directed towards trying to find out what this man did with his time. When he went job hunting, according to some of the records here, he appeared to return home rather promptly. That is, he would leave in the morning but he would be home before noontime.
Mrs. PAINE. Oh.
Mr. JENNER. Did you notice anything of that nature?
Mrs. PAINE. I never saw him when he was job hunting. The times in New Orleans, of course, I wasn't there. The times in April he was job hunting from a base of 214 Neely Street, and in October he was operating from the base of the room on Beckley Street. So I never saw him.
Mr. JENNER. So that as far as--this I would like to bring out, Mr. Chairman--as far as your contact with Lee Harvey Oswald as such, Mrs. Paine, your opportunities for knowing what he did with his time were limited, were they not?
Mrs. PAINE. They were limited.
Mr. JENNER. That is in the spring, there was this New Orleans period when he was absent in New Orleans altogether during the 2 weeks that Marina was with you?
Mrs. PAINE. Right.
Mr. JENNER. It is the period preceding the trip to New Orleans that they lived a little distance from you, and that was in a period of your really becoming more acquainted with them. Were you aware of what Mr. Oswald was doing during the daytime, or evening along in that period of time?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. In the fall when you saw him then for 2 days and 3 nights in
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the early fall of 1963, he was out of work. He was at the home substantially all of that time?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You returned to Irving, then, and you didn't see him until he appeared as you testified this morning, on October 4, 1963?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Now, he was in your home from October 4, 1963, until what was it--the 15th of October? Is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. He was not?
Mrs. PAINE. Not at all. He was in the home for the weekend of October 4. I then took him to the bus around noon on the 7th, that is a Monday, to the Intercity Bus between Irving and Dallas. You can't walk to it from my house. There is no way to get anywhere from my house unless you use a car.
Mr. JENNER. We are interested in that, also, Mrs. Paine, about his ability to get to your home from whatever means of public transportation there was. Would you be good enough to describe the problem in that connection?
Mrs. PAINE. He called on the afternoon of the 4th.
Mr. JENNER. Would you give us the problems first, the physical problems?
Where was the bus located? What was the bus terminal? How far was it from your home?
Mrs. PAINE. The bus terminal in Irving where you could get a bus going to Dallas was several miles away, 2 to 3 miles away from my home, a 10 minute car ride.
Mr. JENNER. And what means of transportation was there from the bus terminal to your home?
Mrs. PAINE. Walking?
Mr. JENNER. Any public transportation.
Mrs. PAINE. There was nothing public.
Mr. JENNER. You would have to hitchhike or walk or be driven?
Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. I take it, then, there were occasions when you would have to go and pick him up at the bus terminal?.
Mrs. PAINE. I recall at least one such occasion, and that was on the 12th of October, a Saturday, which was the next time he came out.
Mr. JENNER. That was the next time following the October 4 weekend?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. When was the first time that you heard, or had any notice of the fact that this man had been in Mexico, or possibly may have been in Mexico?
Mrs. PAINE. They are two different questions. I will answer the first one. I heard that he had been in Mexico after the assassination in one of the papers.
Mr. JENNER. Was that the first time?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; that was the first time. Looking back then, with that knowledge, I could see that I might have guessed this from two other things, that had happened.
Mr. JENNER. All right, give us them in sequence, please.
Mrs. PAINE. One was, I can describe by an incident that took place at our home, I am not certain which weekend, one of the times that Lee was out. He wanted to drill a hole in a silver coin for Marina so she could wear it around her neck, and presumed to use my husband's drill press, which is one of the many things in the garage, and I complained. But he convinced me that he knew how to operate it and knew just what he was doing.
So I said, all right, and he proceeded to drill a hole in this coin, and then Marina showed it to me later. I didn't look closely at it. It wasn't until--although I could have perfectly well in this situation. I did see that it was a foreign coin.
Mr. JENNER. It was a what?
Mrs. PAINE. It was a foreign coin. It was not a coin I recognized. It was about the size of a silver dollar, but not as thick, as I remember it. And it was not then until perhaps a week or something less after the assassination when an, FBI agent asked me was there anything left in the house that would be pertinent, and he and I went together and looked in the drawer in the room
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where Marina had been staying, and found there this drilled coin, looked at it closely, and it was a peso, the Republic of Mexico. This is the first I had looked at it closely. Also, with this peso was a Spanish-English Dictionary.
My tendency to be very hesitant to look into other people's things was rather put aside at this point, and I was very curious to see what this book was, and I observed that the price of it, or what I took to be the price was in a corner at the front was not in English money, and at the back in his hand or somebody's hand in small scribble was the notation, "Buy tickets for bull fight, get silver bracelet for Marina" and there in the drawer also was a silver bracelet with the name Marina on it, which I took to be associated with this notation.
Mr. JENNER. Was it inscribed on the bracelet?
Mrs. PAINE. It was inscribed, the name Marina. And some picture post-cards with no message, just a picture of Mexico City in this dictionary, and these I gave to the
Mr. JENNER. Had you seen any of these items in your home at anytime prior to this occasion that you have now described?
Mrs. PAINE. None of these items except the peso which I had not noticed to be that, seen it, of course.
Mr. JENNER. Now, that is one incident.
Mrs. PAINE. That is one incident. Another refers to a rough draft of a letter that Lee wrote and left this rough draft on my secretary desk.
Mr. JENNER. Would you describe the incident? In the meantime, I will obtain the rough draft here among my notes.
Mrs. PAINE. All right. This was on the morning of November 9, Saturday. He asked to use my typewriter, and I said he might.
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. Would you please. state to the Commission why you are reasonably firm that it was the morning of November 9? What arrests your attention to that particular date?
Mrs. PAINE. Because I remember the weekend that this note or rough draft remained on my secretary desk. He spent the weekend on it. And the weekend was close and its residence on that desk was stopped also on the evening of Sunday, the 10th, when I moved everything in the living room around; the whole arrangement of the furniture was changed, so that I am very clear in my mind as to what weekend this was.
Mr. JENNER. All right, go ahead.
Mrs. PAINE. He was using the typewriter. I came and put June in her high-chair near him at the table where he was typing, and he moved something over what he was typing from, which aroused my curiosity.
Mr. JENNER. Why did that arouse your curiosity?
Mrs. PAINE. It appeared he didn't want me to see what he was writing or to whom he was writing. I didn't know why he had covered it. If I had peered around him, I could have looked at the typewriter and the page in it, but I didn't.
Mr. JENNER. It did make you curious?
Mrs. PAINE. It did make me curious. Then, later that day, I noticed a scrawling handwriting on a piece of paper on the corner at the top of my secretary desk in the living room. It remained there.
Sunday morning I was the first one up. I took a closer look at this, a folded sheet of paper folded at the middle. The first sentence arrested me because I knew it to be false. And for this reason I then proceeded--
Mr. JENNER. Would you just hold it at that moment. This is for purposes of identification, Mr. Chairman, rather than admission of the document in evidence. I have marked pages 321 and 322 of Commission Document No. 385 generally referred to by the staff as the Gemberling Report. He is an FBI agent. I have now placed that before the witness. You examined that yesterday with me, did you not, Mrs. Paine?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. The document I am now showing you?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Is that a transcript, a literal transcript of the document you saw?
Mrs. PAINE. Of course the document was in English, transcribing of what was said; yes.
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Mr. JENNER. By transcript I meant that it has been retyped, that it is literal.
Mrs. PAINE. That is the document; yes.
Mr. JENNER. That is interesting. You noticed that the document was in English.
Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes.
Mr. JENNER. You saw it. And it was folded at what point, now that you have the transcript of it before you?
Mrs. PAINE. At the top of what I could see of the paper. In other words, it was just below the fold. It said, "The FBI is not now interested in my activities."
Mr. JENNER. Is that what arrested your attention?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. What did you do?
Mrs. PAINE. I then proceeded to read the whole note, wondering, knowing this to be false, wondering why he was saying it. I was irritated to have him writing a falsehood on my typewriter, I may say, too. I felt I had some cause to look at it.
Mr. JENNER. May I have your permission, Mr. Chairman. The document is short. It is relevant to the witness' testimony, and might I read it aloud in the record to draw your attention to it?
Mr. McCLOY. Without objection.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, would you help me by reading it, since you have it there.
Mrs. PAINE. Do you want me to leave out all the crossed out--
Mr. JENNER. No; I wish you would indicate that too.
Mrs. PAINE. "Dear Sirs:
"This is to inform you of events since my interview with comrade Kostine in the Embassy of the Soviet Union, Mexico City, Mexico."
(Discussion off the record.)
Mrs. PAINE. He typed it early in the morning of that day because after he typed it we went to the place where you get the test for drivers. It was that same day.
Mr. JENNER. It was election day and the driver's license place was closed, is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And that was November 9?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now you have reached the point where you are reading the letter on the morning of November 10.
Mrs. PAINE. That is right; after I had noticed that it lay on my desk the previous evening.
"I was unable to remain in Mexico City (because I considered useless--)"because it is crossed out.
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, Mr. Chairman. In this transcript wherever there are words stricken out, the transcriber has placed those words in parenthesis and transcribed the words, but then has written the words "crossed out" to indicate in the original the words crossed out.
Proceed, Mrs. Paine.
Mrs. PAINE. "Indefinitely because of my (visa--crossed out) Mexican visa restrictions which was for 15 days only.
"(I had a---crossed out) I could not take a chance on applying for an extension unless I used my real name so I returned to the U.S.
"I and Marina Nicholyeva are now living in Dallas, Texas. (You all ready ha--crossed out).
"The FBI is not now interested in my activities in the progressive organization FPCC of which I was secretary in (New Orleans, La.--crossed out) New Orleans, Louisiana since I (am-crossed out) no longer (connected with-crossed out) live in that state.
"(November the November-crossed out) the FBI has visited us here in Texas on November 1st. Agent of the FBI James P. Hasty warned me that if I attempt to engage in FPCC activities in Texas the FBI will again take an 'interest' in me. The agent also 'suggested' that my wife could remain in the U.S. under
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FBI protection', that is, she could (refuse to return to the-crossed out) defect from the Soviet Union. Of course I and my wife strongly protested these tactics by the notorious FBI.
"(It was unfortunate that the Soviet Embassy was unable to aid me in Mexico City but-crossed out) I had not planned to contact the Mexico City Embassy at all so of course they were unprepared for me. Had I been able to reach Havana as planned (I could have contacted--crossed out) the Soviet Embassy there (for the completion of would have been able to help me get the necessary documents I required assist me crossed out ) would have had time to assist me, but of course the stuip Cuban consule was at fault here. I am glad he has since been replaced by another."
Mr. JENNER. Now I would like to ask you a few questions about your reaction to that. You had read that in the quiet of your living room on Sunday morning, the 10th of November.
Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And there were a number of things in that that you thought were untrue.
Mrs. PAINE. Several things I knew to be untrue.
Mr. JENNER. You knew to be untrue. Were there things in there that alarmed you?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I would say so.
Mr. JENNER. What were they?
Mrs. PAINE. To me this--well, I read it and decided to make a copy.
Mr. JENNER. Would having the document back before you help you?
Mrs. PAINE. No, no. I was just trying to think what to say first. And decided that I should have such a copy to give to an FBI agent coming again, or to call. I was undecided what to do. Meantime I made a copy.
Mr. JENNER. But you did have the instinct to report this to the FBI?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you made a copy of the document?
Mrs. PAINE. And I made a copy of the document which should be among your papers, because they have that too. And after having made it, while the shower was running, I am not used to subterfuge in any way, but then I put it back where it had been and it lay the rest of Sunday on my desk top, and of course I observed this too.
Mr. JENNER. That is that Lee didn't put it away, just left it out in the room?
Mrs. PAINE. That he didn't put it away or didn't seem to care or notice or didn't recall that he had a rough draft lying around. I observed it was untrue that the FBI was no longer interested in him. I observed it was untrue that the FBI came--
Mr. JENNER. Why did you observe that that was untrue?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, the FBI came and they asked me, they said--
Mr. JENNER. Had the FBI been making inquiries of you prior to that time?
Mrs. PAINE. They had been twice.
Mr. JENNER. November 1 and--
Mrs. PAINE. November 1, and they told me the 5. I made no record of it whatever.
Mr. JENNER. But it was a few days later?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; a few days later. And the first visit I understood to be a visit to convey to Marina that if any blackmail pressure was being put upon her, because of relatives back home, that she was invited, if she wished, to talk about this to the FBI. This is a far cry from being told she could defect from the Soviet Union, very strong words, and false both.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever hear anything at all insofar as the FBI is concerned reported to you by Marina or Lee Harvey Oswald during all of your acquaintance with either of them of any suggestion by the FBI or anybody else that Marina defect in that context to the United States?
Mrs. PAINE. No, absolutely not.
Mr. JENNER. Or anything of similar import?
Mrs. PAINE. Nothing of similar import.
Mr. JENNER. I limited it to the FBI. Any agency of the Government of the United States?
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Mrs. PAINE. Nothing of that sort.
Mr. JENNER. And did you see or observe anything during all of that period of your acquaintance, which stimulated you to think at all or have any notion that any agency of the Government of the United States was seeking to induce her to defect?
Mrs. PAINE. To the United States?
Mr. JENNER. To the United States.
Mrs. PAINE. No, and her terminology in view of it was so completely different from such stereotyped and loaded words that I was seeing as I read this. What I was most struck with was what kind of man is this.
Mr. JENNER. Is who?
Mrs. PAINE. Why is Lee Oswald writing this? What kind of man? Here is a false statement that she was invited to defect, false statement that the FBI is no longer interested, false statement that he was present, "they visited I and my wife."
Mr. JENNER. Was he present?
Mrs. PAINE. He was not present. False statement that "I and my wife protested vigorously." Having not been present he could not protest.
Mr. JENNER. He was not present when the FBI interviewed you on November 1. Was Marina present then?
Mrs. PAINE. She was present.
Mr. JENNER. And was Marina present when the FBI came later on November 5?
Mrs. PAINE. She came into the room just after basically the very short visit was concluded.
Mr. JENNER. The second interview was a rather short one?
Mrs. PAINE. The second interview was conducted standing up. He simply asked me did I know the address. My memory had been refreshed by him since.
Mr. JENNER. The first interview, however, was a rather lengthly one?
Mrs. PAINE. But it was not strictly speaking an interview.
Mr. JENNER. What was it?
Mrs. PAINE. It was, as Mr. Hosty has described to me later, and I think this was my impression too of it at the time, an informal opening for confidence. He presented himself. He talked. We conversed about the weather, about Texas, about the end of the last World War and changes in Germany at the time.
He mentioned that the FBI is very careful in their investigations not to bring anyone they suspect in public light until they have evidence to convict him in a proper court of law, that they did not convict by hearsay or public accusation.
He asked me, and here I am answering why I thought it was false to say the FBI is no longer interested in Lee Oswald; he asked first of all if I knew did Lee live there, and I said "No." Did I know where he lived? No, I didn't, but that it was in Dallas.
Did I know where he worked? Yes, I did.
And I said I thought Lee was very worried about losing this job, and the agent said that well, it wasn't their custom to approach the employer directly. I said that Lee would be there on the weekend, so far as I knew, that he could be seen then, if he was interested in talking to Lee.
I want to return now to the fact that I had seen these gross falsehoods and strong words, concluding with "notorious FBI" in this letter, and gone to say I wondered whether any of it was true, including the reference to going to Mexico, including the reference to using a false name, and I still wonder if that was true or false that he used an assumed name, though I no longer wonder whether he had actually gone.
Mr. JENNER. There was a subsequent incident in which you did learn that he used an assumed name, was there not?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, a week later.
Mr. JENNER. We will get to that in a moment. But was this--
Mrs. PAINE. But this was the first indication I had that this man was a good deal queerer than I thought, and it didn't tell me, perhaps it should have but it didn't tell me just what sort of a queer he was. He addressed it "Dear Sirs."
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It looked to me like someone trying to make an impression, and choosing the words he thought were best to make that impression, even including assumed name as a possible attempt to make an impression on someone who was able to do espionage, but not to my mind necessarily a picture of someone who was doing espionage, though I left that open as a possibility, and thought I'd give it to the FBI and let them conclude or add it to what they knew.
I regret, and I would like to put this on the record, particularly two things in my own actions prior to the time of the assassination.
One, that I didn't make the connection between this phone number that I had of where he lived and that of course this would produce for the FBI agent who was asking the address of where he lived.
Mr. JENNER. I will get to that, Mrs. Paine.
Mrs. PAINE. Well, that is regret 1.
Mr. JENNER. I don't want to cover too many subjects at the moment.
Mrs. PAINE. But then of course you see in light of the events that followed it is a pity that I didn't go directly instead of waiting for the next visit, because the next visit was the 23d of November.
Mr. JENNER. Now I am going to get to that. What did you do with your copy of the letter?
Mrs. PAINE. I put my copy of the letter away in an envelope in my desk. I then, Sunday evening, also took the original I decided to do that Sunday evening.
Mr. JENNER. He had left?
Mrs. PAINE. No, he had not left.
Mr. JENNER. He had not left?
Mrs. PAINE. I asked the gentlemen present, it included Michael, to come in and help me move the furniture around. I walked in and saw the letter was still there and plunked it into my desk. We then moved all the furniture. I then took it out of the desk and placed it.
Mr. JENNER. When did you take it out of the desk?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't think he knew that I took it. Oh, that evening or the next morning, I don't recall.
Mr. JENNER. And this was the 10th of November?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever have any conversation with him about that?
Mrs. PAINE. No. I came close to it. I was disturbed about it. I didn't go to sleep right away. He was sitting up watching the late spy story, if you will, on the TV, and I got up and sat there on the sofa with him saying, "I can't speak," wanting to confront him with this and say, "What is this?" But on the other hand I was somewhat fearful, and I didn't know what to do.
Representative FORD. Fearful in what way?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, if he was an agent, I would rather just give it to the FBI, not to say "Look, I am watching you" by saying "What is this I find on my desk."
Mr. JENNER. Were you fearful of any physical harm?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I was not.
Representative FORD. That is what I was concerned about.
Mrs. PAINE. No; I was not, though I don't think I defined my fears. I sat down and said I couldn't sleep and he said, "I guess you are real upset about going to the lawyer tomorrow."
He knew I had an appointment with my lawyer to discuss the possibility of a divorce the next day, and that didn't happen to be what was keeping me up that night, but I was indeed upset about the idea, and it was thoughtful for him to think of it. But I let it rest there, and we watched the story which he was interested in watching. And then I excused myself and went to bed.
Mr. JENNER. What did you do ultimately with your draft of the letter and the original?
Mrs. PAINE. The first appearance of an FBI person on the 23d of November, I gave the original to them. The next day it probably was I said I also had a copy and gave them that. I wanted to be shut of it.
Mr. JENNER. So I take it, Mrs. Paine, you did not deliver either the original
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or the copy or call attention to the original or the copy with respect to the FBI.
Mrs. PAINE. Prior.
Mr. JENNER. Prior to the 23d did you say?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. And what led you to hold onto this rather provocative document?
Mrs. PAINE. It is a rather provocative document. It provoked my doubts about this fellow's normalcy more than it provoked thoughts that this was the talk of an agent reporting in. But I wasn't sure.
I of course made no--I didn't know him to be a violent person, had no thought that he had this trait, possibility in him, absolutely no connection with the President's coming. If I had, hindsight is so much better, I would, certainly have called the FBI's attention to it. Supposing that I had?
Mr. JENNER. If the FBI had returned, Mrs. Paine, as you indicated during the course of your meeting with the FBI November 1, would you have disclosed this document to the FBI?
Mrs. PAINE. Oh, I certainly think so. This was not something I was at all comfortable in having even.
Mr. JENNER. Were you expecting the FBI to return?
Mrs. PAINE. I did expect them to come back. As I say, I had said that Lee was here on weekends and so forth. It might have been a good time to give them this document. But as far as I knew, and I know now certainly, they had not seen him and they were still interested in seeing him.
Representative FORD. How did you copy the note?
Mrs. PAINE. Handwritten.
Representative FORD. Handwritten?
Mrs. PAINE. I perhaps should put in here that Lee told me, and I only reconstructed this a few weeks ago, that he went, after I gave him--from the first visit of the FBI agent I took down the agent's name and the number that is in the telephone book to call the FBI, and I gave this to Lee the weekend he came.
Mr. JENNER. You gave it to Lee?
Mrs. PAINE. I gave it to Lee.
Mr. JENNER. What weekend was that?
Mrs. PAINE. I am told that came out on the 1st of November, so that would have been the weekend of the 2d, the next day.
Mr. JENNER. You have your calendar there. The 1st of November is what day of the week?
Mrs. PAINE. It is a Friday. Then. he told me, it must have been the following weekend, that same weekend of the 9th.
Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything when you gave him Agent Hosty's name on the telephone?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Nothing at all?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall anything Lee said. I will go on as to the recollections that came later. He told me that he had stopped at the downtown office of the FBI and tried to see the agents and left a note. And my impression of it is that this notice irritated.
Mr. JENNER. Irritating?
Mrs. PAINE. Irritated, that he left the note saying what he thought. This is reconstructing my impression of the fellows bothering him and his family, and this is my impression then. I couldn't say this was specifically said to him later.
Mr. JENNER. You mean he was irritated?
Mrs. PAINE. He was irritated and he said, "They are trying to inhibit my activities," and I said, "You passed your pamphlets," and could well have gone on to say what I thought, but I don't believe I did go on to say, that he could and should expect the FBI to be interested in him.
He had gone to the Soviet Union, intended to become a citizen there, and come back. He had just better adjust himself to being of interest to them for years to come.
Mr. JENNER. What did he say to that?
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Mrs. PAINE. Now as I say, this I didn't go on to say. This was my feeling.
I didn't actually go on to say this. I did say, "Don't be inhibited, do what you think you should." But I was thinking in terms of passing pamphlets or expressing a belief in Fidel Castro, if that is why he had, I defend his right to express such a belief. I felt the FBI would too and that he had no reason to be irritated. But then that was my interpretation.
Mr. JENNER. Have you given all of what he said and what you said, however, on that occasion?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. I will just go on to say that I learned only a few weeks ago that he never did go into the FBI office. Of course knowing, thinking that he had gone in, I thought that was sensible on his part. But it appears to have been another lie.
Mr. JENNER. I will return to that FBI visit in a moment. I want to cover that as a separate subject.
Representative Ford is interested in another subject. I would like to return to the day or the period that your station wagon was being parked just before you took off. You have already testified to the fact, either earlier this afternoon or late this morning, that Lee Harvey Oswald appeared to be quite active in doing packing.
Mrs. PAINE. Right.
Mr. JENNER. Of household wares or goods that were being taken back to Irving, Tex. Were you present when the station wagon was loaded with the various materials?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, I was present for most if not all of that.
Mr. JENNER. Who did that?
Mrs. PAINE. He put the things in. I knew that we would spend one night on the road, that there were certain things we would have to get too, and I knew where these were, and he didn't, so that I talked about where these things should be placed, and helped with some of the binding, tying things to the boat on the car rack.
Mr. JENNER. The boat on top of the station wagon?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now would you please tell us what there was in the way of luggage placed in the station wagon?
Mrs. PAINE. There again the two large duffels which were heavier than I could move, he put those in.
Mr. JENNER. Describe their appearance, please.
Mrs. PAINE. Again stuffed full, a rumply outside.
Mr. JENNER. With what?
Mrs. PAINE. Rumply.
Mr. JENNER. Rumply? No appearance of any hard object pushing outwards?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Against the sides or ends of the duffel bags?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. You saw nothing with respect to those duffel bags which might have led you to believe--
Mrs. PAINE. A board in it, no.
Mr. JENNER. A tent pole, a long object, hard?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Nothing at all?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. And how many pieces of luggage?
Mrs. PAINE. Again these same suitcases, 2 or 3, I think 3 including quite a small one, and the little radio.
Mr. JENNER. What about the zipper bag?
Mrs. PAINE. That was there. I think so. Oh no, it probably wasn't. I don't recall the zipper bag as being part of that.
Mr. JENNER. I wish you would reflect a little on this because it is important, Mrs. Paine, if you can remember it as accurately as possible.
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall the zipper bag among those things.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall the zipper bag when you arrived in Irving?
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Mrs. PAINE. I think I saw him arrive with it himself, but I am not certain. No, wait, that may not be because I didn't see him when he first arrived.
Mr. JENNER. When you arrived in Irving, Mrs. Paine, not when he arrived.
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall that. I distinctly recall the duffels because it was all I could do to get them off of the car and set them on the grass until Michael could come and put them into the garage.
Mr. JENNER. Do you distinctly recall the hard-sided luggage you described yesterday?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. All of the pieces that you saw?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, I don't recall that it was all. I couldn't even recall too well how many went down to New Orleans originally.
Mr. JENNER. Was there more than one?
Mrs. PAINE. There was certainly more than one.
Mr. JENNER. Do you think there were more than two?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall specifically.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have a recollection as to whether there was a piece of luggage still apart from the zipper bag, still in the apartment at 4907 Magazine Street when you girls pulled out to go back to Irving?
Mrs. PAINE. I have no specific recollection.
Mr. JENNER. Is it fair to say it is your best recollection at the moment that the zipper bag you have described earlier, you described yesterday, was not placed in the station wagon, and did not return with you to Irving?
Mrs. PAINE. I do not recall it being in the station wagon.
Mr. JENNER. Now, was there a separate long package of any kind?
Mrs. PAINE. I do not recall such a package.
Mr. JENNER. Was there a separate package of any character wrapped in a blanket?
Mrs. PAINE. No. There was a basket such as you use for hanging your clothes. It carried exactly that, clothes and diapers, and they weren't as neat as being in suitcases and duffels would imply. There was leftovers stuffed in the corner, clothes and things, but rather open.
Mr. JENNER. So you saw no long rectangular package of any kind or character loaded in or placed in your station wagon?
Mrs. PAINE. No, it doesn't mean it wasn't there, but I saw nothing of that nature.
Mr. JENNER. You saw nothing?
Mrs. PAINE. I saw nothing.
Mr. JENNER. When you arrived in Irving, Tex., were you present when your station wagon was unpacked?
Mrs. PAINE. Marina and I did that with the exception of the duffels.
Mr. JENNER. You did it all yourself and you took out of the station wagon everything in it other than the two duffel bags?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, in the process of removing everything other than the two duffel bags-on the occasion on the 24th of September 1963 when you reached Irving, Tex., did you find or see any long rectangular package?
Mrs. PAINE. I recall no such package.
Mr. JENNER. Did you see any kind of a package wrapped in the blanket?
Mrs. PAINE. Not to my recollection.
Mr. JENNER. Did you see any package
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall seeing the blanket either.
Mr. JENNER. On that occasion?
Mrs. PAINE. On that occasion, not until later.
Mr. JENNER. Not until later.
Representative FORD. Did you see the blanket in New Orleans?
Mrs. PAINE. On the bed or something. I am asking myself. I don't recall it specifically.
Mr. JENNER. Of course we all know the blanket to which we are referring, which I will ask you about in a moment. I might show it to you at the moment, or at least ask you if it is the blanket. I am exhibiting to the witness Commission Exhibit No. 140. Is this blanket familiar to you?
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Mrs. PAINE. Yes, it is.
Mr. JENNER. And give us the best recollection you have when you first saw it.
Mrs. PAINE. My best recollection is that I saw it on the floor of my garage sometime in late October.
Mr. JENNER. 1963?
Mrs. PAINE. Right.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have a recollection of ever having seen it before that time?
Mrs. PAINE. No. I might say also now that I know certainly I have never seen this binding until last night.
Mr. JENNER. When you say "this binding," you are pointing to what appears to be some black binding?
Mrs. PAINE. Some hemstitching, it is sewn.
Mr. JENNER. On the edge of the blanket.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. This binding was not apparent, did not show.
Mr. JENNER. You never noticed the binding before, if the binding had always been on it, is that what you mean to say?
Mrs. PAINE. When I saw the blanket the binding was not showing.
Representative FORD. How carefully did you analyze the blanket on the previous occasions?
Mrs. PAINE. I stepped over it. I didn't pick it up or look at it closely.
Representative FORD Didn't turn it over?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Representative FORD. Didn't move it?
Mrs. PAINE. No, I didn't.
Representative FORD. So you only saw one surface more or less?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, only one surface, except I saw that it had been moved.
Representative FORD. But you didn't move it yourself?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. In what shape, that is form, was the blanket when you first saw it? And I take it you first saw it in your garage.
Mrs. PAINE. That is my recollection.
Mr. JENNER. And it was subsequent to the time that you and Marina had returned to Irving?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you are certain that you did not see the blanket in your station wagon when you arrived in Irving?
Mrs. PAINE. I do not recall seeing the blanket in my station wagon.
Mr. JENNER. And you didn't see it in their apartment at 4907 Magazine Street when you were there?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall seeing it there.
Mr. JENNER. Either in the spring or in the fall, is that true?
Mrs. PAINE. That is true.
Mr. JENNER. Now tell us--I take it from your testimony that the blanket, when you first saw it in a garage, was in a configuration in the form of a package?
Mrs. PAINE. It was a long rectangle shape with the ends tucked in.
Mr. JENNER. Would. you be good enough to re-form that blanket so that it is in the shape and the dimension when you first saw it?
Mrs. PAINE. About like so.
Mr. JENNER. For the record if you please, Mr. Chairman, the length of the form is just exactly 45 inches, and it is across exactly 12 inches.
Representative FORD. That is across lying flat.
Mr. JENNER. Across lying flat, thank you.
Now, what else about the form of the blanket did you notice on the occasion when you first saw it on your garage floor? Anything else?
Mrs. PAINE. I recall from either that occasion or another that there were parallel strings around it.
Mr. JENNER. Tied?
Mrs. PAINE. Into a bundle, yes, 3 or 4.
Mr. JENNER. How many were there?
Mrs. PAINE. 3 or 4, I don't recall.
Mr. JENNER. 3 or 4
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Mrs. PAINE. Yes. I suppose it would be four. It would be very well spaced if it was only three, and I think they were closer than that.
Mr. JENNER. Your best recollection now.
Mrs. PAINE. Is four.
Mr. JENNER. Rather than rationalization.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, there were four.
Mr. JENNER. There were four string ties across the 12-inch side of the blanket. Were those string ties pulled so they seemed to hold something inside the blanket?
Mrs. PAINE. They didn't seem particularly tight, but then I don't have a strong recollection of them prior to the 22d.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever pick up that package?
Mrs. PAINE. No, I never did.
Mr. JENNER. That was wrapped in the blanket. Did you ever have any discussion with Marina Oswald about the package in your garage?
Mrs. PAINE. Not until the afternoon of the 22d.
Mr. JENNER. Did you see anybody move it about your garage at any time?
Mrs. PAINE. No, I did not see anyone move it.
Mr. JENNER. And how long after you returned to Texas did you notice that package in your garage?
Mrs. PAINE. I said I thought it was late October perhaps. I wouldn't be at all certain about when I first noticed it.
Mr. JENNER. And did you notice from time to time that it was in a different position or places in your garage?
Mrs. PAINE. I recall two places I saw it.
Mr. JENNER. And the first was where?
Mrs. PAINE. Over near--the radial saw, what do you call it, buzz saw?
Mr. JENNER. Bandsaw.
Mrs. PAINE. No, buzz saw.
Mr. JENNER. Oh yes, a disc type, a buzz saw, near the buzz saw. Then on the second occasion when you saw it, where was it?
Mrs. PAINE. Over near the work bench in front of part of the work bench, one end extending toward the bandsaw.
Mr. JENNER. And on both of those occasions was the package lying flat on the floor or was it upended?
Mrs. PAINE. Flat on the floor.
Mr. JENNER. And you never had any curiosity with respect to it to lead you to step on it or feel it in any respect?
Mrs. PAINE. No, I didn't,
Mr. JENNER. Did you have a lot of debris or articles in the garage?
Mrs. PAINE. Indeed, and do yet. Our things and most of the Oswald things were stored there. I have mentioned several pieces of machine tools.
Mr. JENNER. We identified the garage picture at the tail end of yesterday, and I think the Chairman is seeking it.
Mr. McCLOY. I am trying to find it now.
Mrs. PAINE. That of course was taken more recently, but it is reasonably typical of its condition at that time too.
(Discussion off the record. )
Mr. JENNER. This is a photograph numbered eight, entitled garage interior, which I have marked with Commission number 429, and I now exhibit that to Mrs. Paine.
Are you familiar with what is depicted in that photograph?
Mrs. PAINE. Very.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know when that photograph was taken?
Mrs. PAINE. It was taken about 2 weeks ago.
Mr. JENNER. Were you present?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And does it accurately depict everything that was there and in its relative position at the time the picture was taken?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And it is your garage?
Mrs. PAINE. It is.
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Mr. JENNER. Would you locate on that, and I would like to have you place an X at the point in that picture that you first saw the package?
Mrs. PAINE. Underneath that box.
Mr. JENNER. All right. You have written an arrow or X next to "on floor" and it is underneath the box that is on the floor.
Mrs. PAINE. It was in front as I recall it; this was the buzz saw I was talking about, right here.
Mr. JENNER. Right here the witness is pointing to the right hand upper middle section of the photograph
Mr. DULLES. Is this the first location of the package?
Mrs. PAINE. It was over on that side of the garage, towards the door or--
Mr. DULLES. The first location of it?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Toward what door, Mrs. Paine?
Mrs. PAINE. Toward the front of the garage.
Mr. JENNER. Where did you see it on the second occasion?
Mrs. PAINE. Part of it in front of this work bench, one right under this box here.
Mr. JENNER. Put a double X here, between this workbench and this bandsaw.
Mrs. PAINE. On the floor.
Mr. JENNER. The workbench and the bandsaw to which the witness is pointing are on the left hand side of the photograph,, the bandsaw being about the upper middle. Is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. The package was farther to the interior from the bench.
Mr. JENNER. It was toward the back rather than toward the door?
Mrs. PAINE. It was the other side of the bandsaw so it was farther to the interior than its first location.
Mr. JENNER. I offer in evidence as Commission Exhibit No. 429 the document which the witness has identified which in turn was identified as Commission Exhibit 429.
Mr. McCLOY. It will be admitted.
(The photograph referred to, previously identified as Commission Exhibit No. 429, was received in evidence.)
Mr. JENNER. For the record, I am placing the rifle in the folded blanket as Mrs. Paine folded it. This is being done without the rifle being dismantled. May the record show, Mr. Chairman, that the rifle fits well in the package from end to end, and it does not--
Mrs. PAINE. Can you make it flatter?
Mr. JENNER. No; because the rifle is now in there.
Mrs. PAINE. I just mean that--
Mr. JENNER. Was that about the appearance of the blanket wrapped package that you saw on your garage floor?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; although I recall it as quite flat.
Mr. JENNER. Flatter than it now appears to be?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. But it is not a clear recollection.
Mr. JENNER. You have a firm recollection that the package you saw was of the length?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, definitely.
Mr. JENNER. That is 45 inches, approximately. You had no occasion when you stepped on the package--
Mrs. PAINE. I stepped over it.
Mr. JENNER. You always stepped over it?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; until the afternoon of the 22d.
Mr. JENNER. By accident or otherwise, did you happen to come in contact with it?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. You don't know whether there was anything solid or hard in it?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. DULLES. Did it look about the way this package looks?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. McCLOY. Except for the fact it had some cord around it?
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Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Representative FORD. When it had some cord around it, did the way it was tied pull it in or distort the shape?
Mrs. PAINE. No; it didn't distort the shape.
Representative FORD. About the same shape even with the cord?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. DULLES. The cords weren't pulled tight?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. They were relatively loosley tied?
Mrs. PAINE. I recall this definite shape.
Mr. JENNER. To hold the blanket in that form rather than to hold the contents of the package firm, is that your impression?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. McCLOY. Are you going to ask about the husband's testimony in connection with the moving of the package?
Mr. JENNER. I did not intend to.
Mr. McCLOY. I was not present but your husband testified he had moved the blanket from time to time but had not opened it. Did he ever refer to it? Did he ever speak to you about having had to move it while he was--
Mrs. PAINE. Not until after the assassination.
Mr. McCLOY. Not until after the assassination but before the assassination he had not complained about its being there or any difficulty in moving it?
Mrs. PAINE. No; he did not mention it, and I was not present when he moved it.
Representative FORD. Was he the person who used these various woodworking pieces of equipment?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Representative FORD. Did he work in the garage?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, he had--he made the workbench, and he had worked in the garage when he lived at the home and it has since been somewhat filled up.
Representative FORD. But during the time that you and Marina came back he didn't work in the garage?
Mrs. PAINE. He did still cut occasionally something on the saws. Indeed, did, too. I like to make children's blocks. I am trying to think when I last, if it is pertinent, when I used the saw.
Mr. McCLOY. Did you use the saw while the blanket was on floor?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I believe so.
Mr. McCLOY. You had to step over the blanket to do that?
Mrs. PAINE. Or around it.
Mr. McCLOY. Or around it. But in the course of your use of the saw you never had the necessity or the occasion to readjust the blanket or move it in any way?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. DULLES. Did we get the three locations here? I only see two.
Mr. JENNER. There were only two?
Mrs. PAINE. Two that I recall.
Mr. DULLES. Only two.
Representative FORD. She made a mistake in the first drawing of the second one.
Mrs. PAINE. I touched it by mistake.
Representative FORD. I think that ought to be clarified on the record.
Mr. JENNER. On the right-hand side of Commission Exhibit 429 there is an X or an arrow above which is written the words "on floor". That is the first location point at which you saw the package?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. On the left-hand side, the lower half of the photograph there is a double X.
Mrs. PAINE. Which I could not put in enough to give the proportion.
Mr. JENNER. You mean in the photograph?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Is that where you saw the package for the second time?
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Mrs. PAINE. Yes; as I have described it. The position I have described is more accurate than the XX.
Mr. JENNER. There is a red strip above the table with the tablecloth on it.
Mrs. PAINE. That is an accident with my hand.
Mr. JENNER. That was an accident on your part?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. So there are only two locations?
Mrs. PAINE. Right.
Mr. JENNER. Now, Mr. Chairman, may I reinsert the rifle in the package, on the opposite side from what it was before, and have the witness look at it?
Mr. McCLOY. You may.
We are back on the record.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. Chairman, I have now placed the opposite side of the rifle to the floor, and may the record show that the package is much flatter The rifle when inserted firstly was turned on the side of the bolt which operates the rifle which forced it up higher.
Now does the package look more familiar to you, Mrs. Paine?
Mrs. PAINE. I recall it as being more like this, not as lumpy as the other had been.
Mr. JENNER. More in the form it is now?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now directing your attention to the rifle itself, which is Commission Exhibit 189, when did you first see that rifle, if you have ever seen--
Mrs. PAINE. I saw a rifle I judge to have been the same one at the police station on the afternoon of November 22, I don't recall the strap.
Mr. JENNER. You don't recall at the time you saw it on the 22d of November in the police station that it had a strap?
Mrs. PAINE. It may well have had one but I don't specifically recall it. I was interested in the sight
Mr. JENNER. Had you ever seen this rifle prior to the afternoon of November 22?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
(At this point, Senator Cooper entered the hearing room.)
Mr. JENNER. Now, we do have some particular interest, Mrs. Paine, in the rifle strap. Had you ever had around your house a luggage strap or a guitar strap similar to the strap that appears on Commission Exhibit 139?
Mrs. PAINE. No; in fact, I don't recall ever seeing a strap of that nature.
Mr. JENNER. Whether in your home or anywhere else?
Mrs. PAINE. Precisely.
Mr. JENNER. And you are unable to identify or suggest its source?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. What do you have in your home, Mrs. Paine, by way of heavy wrapping paper?
Mrs. PAINE. I have the sort of paper you buy at the dime store to wrap packages, about 36 inches long, coming in a roll.
Mr. JENNER. Exhibiting to you Commission Exhibit No. 364, is the wrapping paper that you have in your home as heavy as that?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't believe it is quite that heavy and it certainly isn't quite that long. Well, it could have been cut the otherway, couldn't it, possibly?
Mr. JENNER. What about its shade, color?
Mrs. PAINE. It would be similar to that.
Mr. JENNER. Similar in shade.
Do you have the broad banded sticky tape or sticky tape of this nature?
Mrs. PAINE. There is no tape this wide in my home nor to my recollection has there ever been.
Mr. JENNER. You have whole rolls of this tape, of the paper in your home?
Mrs. PAINE. A whole roll.
Mr. JENNER. A whole roll?
Mrs. PAINE. Which I use for wrapping packages, mailing.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have string in your home that you use in attaching to this wrapping?
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Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you by any chance know the weight of the string that wrapped the blanket package as against the strength or weight of the string that you normally used in your home for packages?
Mrs. PAINE. It was similar in weight, rather thin.
Representative FORD. Color was the same?
Mrs. PAINE. I think it was a whitish color on the blanket and one of the rolls I have is that.
Representative FORD. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Would you say it was a relatively light package string?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Not a rope type?
Mrs. PAINE. Oh, no.
Mr. JENNER. And the string you saw on the blanket package was of the lighter weight type and not-
Mrs. PAINE. And of the lighter color too, I think.
Mr. JENNER. And the lighter color.
Now, you and Marina arrived home on the 24th of September, with the packages and contents of the station wagon, and, save the duffelbags, they were moved into your home, and everybody settled down?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. When next was there--did you hear from Lee Harvey Oswald at any time thereafter?
Mrs. PAINE. Not until the afternoon of the 4th, which I have already referred to.
Mr. JENNER. No word whatsoever from him from the 24th of September?
Mrs. PAINE. 23d we left him in New Orleans.
Mr. JENNER. 23d of September, until the 4th of October?
Mrs. PAINE. That is correct; no word.
Mr. JENNER. By letter, telephone?
Mrs. PAINE. Or pigeon.
Mr. JENNER. Or otherwise, anything whatsoever?
Mrs. PAINE. No word.
Mr. JENNER. Did you and Marina have discussions in that 10-day period about where Lee was or might be?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. None whatsoever? Did you have any discussion about the fact that you hadn't heard from Lee Harvey Oswald in 14 days or 10 days?
Mrs. PAINE. No; we didn't.
Mr. JENNER. No discussion on that at all. What did you and Marina discuss during that 10-day period?
Mrs. PAINE. I can't recall which was during that period or which was after; general conversation.
Mr. JENNER. Was it generally small talk, ladies talk about the house?
Mrs. PAINE. It was generally what my vocabulary permitted and then she would reminisce, her vocabulary being much larger, about her life in Russia. about the movies she had seen. We talked about the children and their health-We talked about washing, about cooking.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have ladies visit. Did ladies in the neighborhood come and visit?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you go to neighbors homes?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. With Marina?
Mrs. PAINE. Again, I can't recall which was before October 4th and which was after, but there was the normal flow nonetheless--
Mr. JENNER. And interested people?
Mrs. PAINE. Of my visiting at other people's homes and particularly Mrs. Roberts or Mrs. Craig.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Roberts was your next door neighbor and Mrs. Craig was how many doors down or across the street?
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Mrs. PAINE. She is, you have to drive. You have to drive to her home. She is the young German woman to whom I referred.
Mr. JENNER. Yes. Was there any discussion during this 10-day period of Marina's relations with her husband, Lee?
Mrs. PAINE. Not that I recall.
Mr. JENNER. She expressed no concern during this 10-day period, that no word had been heard from Lee?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Did he evidence any--did she do or say anything during that period to indicate she did not expect to hear from him during that 10 days period?
Mrs. PAINE. No; she did not.
Mr. JENNER. There was nothing?
Mrs. PAINE. There was nothing.
Mr. JENNER. Did it come to your mind that it was curious you hadn't heard from Lee Harvey Oswald for 10 whole days?
Mrs. PAINE. No; it didn't seem curious. I know he had spent at least 2 weeks looking for work on previous occasions in different cities and I thought he wanted to find something before he communicated.
Mr. JENNER. But in view of the affection that had been evidenced on the day of departure on the 23d, You were not bothered by the fact that not even a telephone call had been received in 10 days?
Mrs. PAINE. If he was not in town I wouldn't have at all expected a telephone call because that would have cost him dearly.
Mr. JENNER. He might have made it collect.
Mrs. PAINE. I didn't expect that either.
Mr. JENNER. But there was no telephone call, there was no postcard, there was no letter.
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. There was nothing?
Mrs. PAINE. There could well have been a letter but there was none.
Mr. DULLES. Where did you think he was at this time?
Mrs. PAINE. Houston.
Mr. DULLES. Houston, looking for a job? Houston?
Mrs. PAINE. Houston, possibly.
Mr. JENNER. Because of the conversation on the morning of the 23d, because of the possibility of his going to Houston or Philadelphia, your frame of mind was that he was either in Houston or Philadelphia?
Mrs. PAINE. I thought he probably was in Houston. The Philadelphia reference was very slight.
Mr. JENNER. Was there any reference or discussion between you and Marina during that period of the possibility that he was off in Houston looking for work?
Mrs. PAINE. No, there was not.
Mr. JENNER. You are sure there was just no discussion of the subject at all during that whole 10 days period with Marina?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall any discussion of it.
Mr. JENNER. She expressed no concern and you none?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. That nobody had heard from Lee.
All right.
You heard from him on the 4th of October?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Would you give the Commission the circumstances, the time of day and how it came about?
Mrs. PAINE. He telephoned in early afternoon, something after lunchtime.
Mr. JENNER. The phone rang. Did you answer it?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And did you recognize the voice?
Mrs. PAINE. He asked to speak to Marina.
Mr. JENNER. Whose voice was it?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, after he asked to speak to Marina, I was certain it was Lee's.
Mr. JENNER. What did you say?
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Mrs. PAINE. I said "here" and gave her the phone.
Mr. JENNER. You didn't say "where are you", or "I am glad to hear from you, where have you been?"
Mrs. PAINE. No I thought that was her's to ask. He wished to speak to her and I gave her the phone and, of course, that is what was then asked. I heard her say to him.--
Mr. JENNER. You heard her side of the conversation, did you?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. All right. What did you hear her say?
Mrs. PAINE. I heard her say, "No, Mrs. Paine, she can't come and pick you up."
Mr. JENNER. Was she speaking in Russian?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Throughout?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. When Lee asked for Marina, did he speak in English or Russian?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall. And Marina went on to say that Mrs. Paine, "Ruth has just been to Parkland Hospital this morning to donate blood, she shouldn't be going driving now to pick you up."
Mr. JENNER. Did she refer to you as Mrs. Paine or Ruth?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I am trying to make it clear who is being talked about.
Mr. JENNER. I see. You might give your testimony the wrong cast.
Mrs. PAINE. No; of course. She referred to me as "Ruth" or "she".
To Junie, she called me Aunt Ruth. To Junie, speaking of me to her little girl, she referred to me as Aunt Ruth.
Mr. JENNER. You are giving the conversation now, the end of it that you heard?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. Then I heard Marina say "Why didn't you call?"
Mr. JENNER. You did hear her say that?
Mrs. PAINE. I believe so. I certainly remember her saying it afterward. She hung up and she explained the conversation to me.
Mr. JENNER. What did she say to you?
Mrs. PAINE. That he had asked for me to come in to downtown Dallas to pick him up and she said no; he should find his own way.
Mr. JENNER. To come to downtown Dallas?
Mrs. PAINE. To come to downtown Dallas to pick him up, and she never asked me whether I wanted to or would have, told him, no; it was an imposition, that I had just given blood at Parkland Hospital.
Mr. JENNER. And you had in fact given blood?
Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes; indeed.
Mr. JENNER. That morning?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, I have a card or the FBI does to that effect. Then she said that he had said that he was at the Y, staying at the Y, and had been in town a couple of days, to which she said, "Why didn't you call right away?", in other words, "why didn't you call right away upon getting to town?"
Then he also asked whether he could come out; this was, of course, during the conversation, and she referred the question to me, could he come out for the weekend, and I said, yes, he could.
Mr. JENNER. This was while she was still talking on the telephone?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. Prior to his asking for a ride. So then they hung up and I went grocery shopping, and when--
Mr. JENNER. You left the home?
Mrs. PAINE. I left the home.
Mr. JENNER. You have now exhausted your recollection as to everything that was said to you by Marina after she hung up and was relating to you, at least a summary of the conversation with her husband?
Mrs. PAINE. I believe it was also said that he wanted to look for work in Dallas. He was here, staying at the Y. Could he come out for the weekend. He planned to look for work in Dallas.
Mr. JENNER. I see.
Did you say anything about--were you stimulated to say anything to Marina
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about any of the subject matters of that conversation as she reported it to you?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. You expressed no response, made no response to her having made a statement to her husband that--of her surprise as to why he hadn't called and if he were just over in Dallas and staying at the Y?
Mrs. PAINE. I thought that but I didn't try to put it in Russian.
Mr. JENNER. There was no discussion is all I am getting at.
What did she say as to his coming out by whatever means he could get there? Was there any discussion of that?
Mrs. PAINE. It implied whatever means, that he shouldn't ask me to--
Mr. JENNER. He was coming?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. But that you were not going to go to get him?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you left and went to the grocery store or market?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. When you returned, was Lee at your home?
Mrs. PAINE. He was already there, which surprised me greatly.
Mr. JENNER. Why did it surprise you?
Mrs. PAINE. Because I thought he would have to take a public bus to Irving, they run very rarely if at all during the afternoon, and I thought he would have considerable difficulty getting out. I thought it would be at least supper time before he got there.
Mr. JENNER. How much time elapsed between the time you left and the time you returned?
Mrs. PAINE. Shopping? Oh, I don't know, perhaps an hour, perhaps a little less.
Representative FORD. Where did you go shopping?
Mrs. PAINE. The grocery store in the same parking lot where we practiced.
Mr. JENNER. That was three blocks away?
Mrs. PAINE. It is a little more than that. These would be long blocks.
Mr. JENNER. Did any conversation ensue as to how he had, by what means he had come from Dallas to Irving?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. He then said that he had hitchhiked out, caught a ride with someone who brought him straight to the door, a Negro man.
Mr. JENNER. To your door?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. To whom he said that he had been away from his wife and child and he was just now getting home, and the man kindly brought him directly to the door.
Mr. JENNER. Where did this conversation take place?
Mrs. PAINE. In the home that afternoon.
Mr. JENNER. When you returned to your home, that was in the afternoon, wasn't it?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Where was Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall.
Mr. JENNER. Was he inside the home or outside?
Mrs. PAINE. Inside, I believe.
Mr. JENNER. Did any conversation ensue as to where he had been in that 10-day interim?
Mrs. PAINE. Where he had been?
Mr. JENNER. Where he had been in the intervening 10 days?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; he said to me that he had been in Houston and that he hadn't been able to find work there and was now going to try in Dallas.
Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about Philadelphia?
Mrs. PAINE. Nothing.
Mr. JENNER. From your testimony I gather he did not say anything about Mexico?
Mrs. PAINE. No; he did not.
Mr. JENNER. Was Marina present when he stated to you that he had been in Houston looking for work?
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Mrs. PAINE. That is my recollection of it; yes.
Mr. JENNER. You never had any conversation with her up to the 23d or 22d of November on the subject of whether Lee had or had not been in Mexico?
Mrs. PAINE. We never had such a conversation.
Mr. JENNER. Despite your having read that letter on the 10th of November in which he stated that he had been?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. Now there was no occasion in that letter that she may have known that he went any more than there was certain indication to my mind that this was true and not false. Had I looked at the peso, this would have been the only occasion that she knew.
Mr. JENNER. But the fact is, apart from your rationalization now there was no conversation on that subject?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. How long did he remain in your home?
Mrs. PAINE. Monday morning--
The CHAIRMAN. Before you get to that, I want to ask a question about giving the blood that day. Did you give it for a particular person or for a blood bank?
Mrs. PAINE. It was for Marina. For each of the persons who come in under county care they ask you to donate two pints of blood, one at a time.
The CHAIRMAN. I see. And you donated one pint for her?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
The CHAIRMAN. Thank you.
Mr. JENNER. How long did he remain in your home on this visit?
Mrs. PAINE. Until Monday morning, the 7th of October, almost noon, in fact, when I took him to an Intercity bus at the Irving bus station.
Mr. JENNER. This is that bus terminal approximately 3 miles from your home?
Mrs. PAINE. That same day I gave him a map to assist him in job hunting.
Mr. JENNER. All right. I would like to get to that.
I show you what is in evidence, I don't know whether it is received or not; it is a Commission Exhibit No. 128, and ask you if you have ever seen that before?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I have.
Mr. JENNER. Is that the map to which you now have reference?
Mrs. PAINE. I would say it is.
Mr. JENNER. What did you do with the map with respect to Lee Harvey Oswald on this occasion?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall who asked, who mentioned a map first, but, of course, I knew, and he did, that it would be a useful thing to have job hunting. I think he asked if I had a map of the city of Dallas and I said, yes, I did, and I can easily get another at the gas station, one of these.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, it is your clear recollection that this document, Commission Exhibit No. 128, a map, is the map that you gave Lee Harvey Oswald, this was October 7th?
Mrs. PAINE. It was certainly this kind of map, whether it is the identical map, I couldn't say for sure, but I much prefer the ENCO map of the city and this is the kind I always get to use. So this is the kind I had in mind.
Mr. JENNER. So, to the best of your recollection, the coloring has been changed a little bit because of attempts to draw fingerprints from it?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. But your best recollection now, observing it, is that this is the document?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Would you examine it carefully and see that there might be something on it that would arrest your attention as your having placed thereon or Lee?
Mrs. PAINE. I have examined this carefully and a copy of it.
Mr. JENNER. On other occasions?
Mrs. PAINE. On other occasions, and I could not at any time find a marking that I had made.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall having made markings?
Mrs. PAINE. I do not recall having made any markings on this particular map. Sometime on some maps I knew I had made remarks where I was going.
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Mr. JENNER. Just for the purpose of the record, may I reverse it, and you see no markings on the reverse side, I take it?
Mrs. PAINE. No; which is Fort Worth, not Dallas, isn't it?
Mr. JENNER. Yes; it is. All right, now tell us about that incident?
Mrs. PAINE. The map?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. PAINE. I have.
Mr. JENNER. That is all there was to it?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you suggest, was there any discussion of, particular places of employment?
Mrs. PAINE. There was no such discussion.
Mr. JENNER. As to which he might inquire?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. What did he-did you hand him the map?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And was it opened before you and Lee in your discussions?
Mrs. PAINE. No, no; we didn't discuss. He said, do I have a map, and I said, yes, I do, you may have it.
Mr. JENNER. You handed it to him, and that was all that occurred?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And did he place it in his pocket or did he go into his room or his and Marina's room and place it there?
Mrs. PAINE. He may have already been on his way to the bus station when this conversation occurred and took it with him.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
I notice what appears to be a notation that the document has not as yet been offered in evidence, Mr. Chairman, and I offer in evidence, therefore, as Commission Exhibit No. 128, the document heretofore identified by that exhibit number.
Mr. McCLOY. It may be admitted.
(The document referred to, heretofore marked as Commission Exhibit No. 128 for identification, was received in evidence.)
Mr. JENNER. Was Marina present during this discussion of his job hunting?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall. I seem to think we were on our way out already to go in our car to the bus station.
Mr. JENNER. Did Marina accompany you?
Mrs. PAINE. No; she did not.
Mr. JENNER. She did not?
Mrs. PAINE. She stayed home with the baby. My children probably went with me, I don't recall specifically.
Mr. JENNER. That is the baby, you mean June?
Mrs. PAINE. June.
Mr. JENNER. You drove into the bus terminal approximately 3 miles from your home. Did you remain until the bus came along?
Mrs. PAINE. I think so.
Mr. JENNER. You saw him depart?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Was anything said about where he would reside in Dallas before he left?
Mrs. PAINE. I am not certain, but I think he said the Y was rather expensive. He was going to look for a room.
Mr. McCLOY. What was the date you took him into the bus station?
Mrs. PAINE. That is the 7th of October.
Mr. McCLOY. The 7th of October?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Was there an occasion in this early period that you drove him all the way into Dallas?
Mrs. PAINE. I can't recall ever driving him all the way into Dallas.
Mr. JENNER. At any time?
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Mrs. PAINE. We drove, except to the Oak Cliff Station for this driver training test.
Mr. JENNER. That is the only occasion?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; that is the only one I recall. Can you refresh my memory. I can't think of any other.
Mr. JENNER. You are clear that you drove him from your home to the bus terminal in Irving?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And either you left immediately Or waited to see him board the bus, but it is your definite recollection you did not drive him to the Dallas downtown area on that occasion?
Mrs. PAINE. Oh, I did once drive him to the Dallas downtown area, because I recall where he got out. Now why I was going--yes, I think I may know why I was going.
Mr. JENNER. Fix the time first.
Mrs. PAINE. I do recall now driving him into downtown Dallas because I was already going and it was probably Monday, the 14th of October.
Mr. JENNER. This is the day before his employment began with the Texas School Book Depository?
Mrs. PAINE. It would have been 2 days before, the day before he applied. I have several recollections but which day they attach to is not quite as clear.
I recall taking him to the bus. I recall picking him up at the bus. I recall going in and dropping him off at a corner of Ross Avenue and something else, which was near the employment office.
Mr. JENNER. In downtown Dallas?
Mrs. PAINE. Near the employment office station. I was on my way to get a key fixed on my Russian typewriter which is what was taking me downtown. I hadn't been thinking--I at no time made a purposeful trip just to take him to downtown Dallas, but I was going and he went along and I am pretty sure that was a Monday and he got out at that corner and Marina was with me and we went on to get this typewriter fixed either to pick it up or to leave it. I am quite
certain it was the 12th, Saturday, that I picked him up at the station.
Mr. JENNER. At the bus terminal?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. And I am pretty certain that it was the 7th I took him to the bus station. I recall it being already noon, and I thought he might well have started looking for a job earlier that day.
Mr. JENNER. When next did you hear from Mr. Oswald?
Mrs. PAINE. After the 7th. Probably on the 12th when he called again to ask if he could come out for the weekend.
Mr. JENNER. The 12th is what day of the week?
Mrs. PAINE. The 12th is a Saturday.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall that he did call?
Mrs. PAINE. Pardon?
Mr. JENNER. Did you recall that he did telephone and ask permission to come?
Mrs. PAINE. Oh, indeed he did.
Mr. JENNER. Did he always do that?
Mrs. PAINE. He always did that with the exception of the 21st of November.
Mr. JENNER. We will get to that in a very few moments.
Mr. McCLOY. Before you get to that you said you went all the way into Dallas with this errand, that Marina was with you.
Mrs. PAINE. That is my recollection.
Mr. McCLOY. What did you do with the children?
Mrs. PAINE. We always take them.
Mr. McCLOY. Took them all, put them all in the station wagon?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; big station wagon.
Mr. JENNER. By the way, I would like to go back a little. When you picked him up at the bus station on the afternoon of the 4th of October, what did he have
Mrs. PAINE. On the afternoon of the 12th, around noon of the 12th.
Mr. JENNER. Please, when he first returned to Irving after--
Mrs. PAINE. He hitchhiked out.
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Mr. JENNER. On the occasion that he told you he had been in Houston looking for a job?
Mrs. PAINE. The 4th, he hitchhiked out.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
It is that occasion that I have in mind.
What did he have with him in the way of luggage?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall certainly. It does seem to me that I remember he, took the zipper bag on Monday, the following Monday, with him to town, along with some clothes over his arm, ironed. shirts, things that are hung on hangers.
Mr. JENNER. With respect to that trip--
Mrs. PAINE. You must remember I was shopping when he arrived on the afternoon of the 4th.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. PAINE. So I didn't see him when he arrived that moment.
Mr. JENNER. But you do have a recollection of having seen the zipper bag on Monday?
Mrs. PAINE. The 7th.
Mr. JENNER. When you took him to the bus terminal for the purpose of his returning to downtown Dallas?
Mrs. PAINE. To find a room and live there and have sufficient clothing there. That is my best recollection.
Mr. JENNER. Is that the first time you had seen the zipper bag?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. From the time you had left New Orleans on the 23d?
Mrs. PAINE. So far as I recall.
Mr. JENNER. Did you notice anything else in the way of pieces of luggage in your home after you came back from the shopping center that afternoon of October 4th that hadn't been there prior to his arrival?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. The only piece of luggage of which you have any recollection then is the zipper bag which you saw him take with him when he left on Monday morning, the 7th
Mrs. PAINE. And that is, I would not say a certain recollection. But that is the best I have.
Mr. JENNER. It is your best recollection anyhow?
Mrs PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, when you returned to your home did you have any discussion with Marina about Lee's departure and his future plans and her understanding of them?
Mrs. PAINE. No; nothing I recall specifically.
Mr. JENNER. None at all.
What discussion went on between you and Marina, that is the subject matter with respect to his weekend visits?
Mrs. PAINE. She wanted to be certain it was all right for him to come out, you know that it wasn't too much of an imposition on me. We got into discussing his efforts to find a job. Then Monday, the 14th as best as I recall, was the first time we talked about him, more than to say it was too bad he didn't find something. This is the--
Mr. JENNER. During the course of the week was there discussion between you and Marina respecting Lee Oswald's attempt at employment?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Now, there came an occasion, did there not, that weekend or the following weekend at which there was a discussion at least by you with some neighbors with respect to efforts to obtain employment for Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mrs. PAINE. As best I can reconstruct it this was, while having coffee at my immediate neighbors, Mrs. Ed Roberts, and also present was Mrs. Bill Randle, and Lee had said over the weekend that he had gotten the last of the unemployment compensation checks that were due him, and that it had been smaller than the others had been, and disappointing in its smallness and he looked very discouraged when he went to look for work.
Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about amount?
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Mrs. PAINE. I didn't hear the question.
Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about amount
Mrs. PAINE. No; he didn't, just less.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mrs. PAINE. And the subject of his looking for work and that he hadn't found work for a week, came up while we were having coffee, the four young mothers at Mrs. Roberts' house, and Mrs. Randle mentioned that her younger brother, Wesley Frazier thought they needed another person at the Texas School Book Depository where Wesley worked.
Marina then asked me, after we had gone home, asked me if I would call--
Mr. JENNER. Was Marina present during this discussion?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; Marina was present, yes, indeed.
Mr. JENNER. Did she understand the conversation?
Mrs. PAINE. It was a running translation, running, faulty translation going on.
Mr. JENNER. You were translating for her?
Mrs. PAINE. I was acting as her translator. And then after we came home she asked me if I would call the School Book Depository to see if indeed there was the possibility of an opening, and at her request, I did telephone--
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, please.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. While you were still in the Roberts' home was there any discussion at all of the subject mentioned by you or by Mrs. Randle or Mrs. Roberts or anyone else, of calls to be made, or that might be made, to the Texas School Book Depository in this connection?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall this discussion. As I recall it was a suggestion made by Marina to me after we got home, but I may be wrong.
Mr. JENNER. But that is your best recollection that you are now testifying?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You reached home and Marina suggested that "Would you please call the Texas School Depository?"
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. What did you do?
Mrs. PAINE. I looked up the number in the book, and dialed it, was told I would need to speak to Mr. Truly, who was at the warehouse. The phone was taken to Mr. Truly, and I talked with him and said--
Mr. JENNER. You mean the call was transferred by the operator?
Mrs. PAINE. To Mr. Truly, and I said I know of a young man whose wife was staying in my house, the wife was expecting a child, they already had a little girl and he had been out of work for a while and was very interested in getting any employment and his name, and was there a possibility of an opening there, and Mr. Truly said he didn't know whether he had an opening, that the young man should apply himself in person.
Mr. JENNER. Which made sense.
Mrs. PAINE. Made very good sense for a personnel man to say.
Mr. JENNER. Did you make more than one call to this Texas School Book Depository?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Only the one?
Mrs. PAINE. Only the one.
Mr. JENNER. What was the date of this call?
Mrs. PAINE. Reconstructing it, I believe it was October 14.
Mr. JENNER. What day of the week is October 14?
Mrs. PAINE. It is a Monday.
Mr. JENNER. Following that call and your talking with Mr. Truly, what did you do?
Mrs. PAINE. Began to get dinner. Then Lee call the house.
Mr. JENNER. In the evening?
Mrs. PAINE. In the early evening.
Mr. JENNER. Did you talk with him?
Mrs. PAINE. Marina talked with him, then asked--then Marina asked me to
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tell Lee in English what had transpired regarding the possible job opening, and then I did say that there might be an opening in the School Book Depository, that Mr. Truly was the man to apply to. Shall I go on?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. PAINE. The next day--
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, I meant go on as far as the conversation was concerned.
Mrs. PAINE. That is all there was.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, I would like to return just for a moment to the conversation in the Roberts' home.
Was any possible place of employment in addition to the Texas School Depository mentioned?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. You have no recollection of any other suggestion as to possible places of employment?
Mrs. PAINE. I have no recollection of that.
Mr. JENNER. You have no recollection of any other, at least two other places being suggested, and you, in turn, stating that they would be unsatisfactory, one because an automobile had to be used, or it would be necessary for Lee to have an automobile, and the other that he was lacking in the possible qualifications needed? None of that refreshes your recollection?
Mrs. PAINE. None of that refreshes my recollection. I certainly know that I thought, for instance, he couldn't have applied to Bell Helicopter or to any place apart from the city area.
Mr. JENNER. But Bell Helicopter was not mentioned?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall it being mentioned.
Mr. JENNER. Your husband-is employed by Bell Helicopter, is he not?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Had you made an inquiry of your husband as to the possibility of employment by Lee Harvey Oswald with Bell Helicopter?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I hadn't, especially knowing that he had no way of getting there.
Mr. JENNER. Unless he knew how to drive a car?
Mrs. PAINE. Unless he knew how to drive a car.
Mr. JENNER. You didn't believe he was proficient enough at this moment to operate it?
Mrs. PAINE. We have got on record here that I gave him the first lesson on the 13th of October.
Mr. JENNER. And in any event were you aware he had no driver's license?
Mrs. PAINE. I certainly was.
Mr. JENNER. Especially that week?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you give him the telephone number and the address of the Texas School Book Depository on the occasion when you talked to him, this is the 14th?
Mrs. PAINE. The address, I don't think so. I probably gave the phone number. I don't recall that I gave him an address.
Mr. JENNER. Directing your attention to your address book, you have an entry in your address book of the Texas School Depository, do you not? Would you turn to that page?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I have it here.
Mr. JENNER. Is there an entry of address of the Texas School Depository on that page?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; which I believe I made after he gained employment there.
Mr. JENNER. Rather than at the time that you advised him of this possibility?
Mrs. PAINE. Indeed.
Mr. JENNER. Have you made an entry of the telephone number of the Texas School Book Depository on that date?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I have and of the address.
Mr. JENNER. And that is the telephone number and the address of the Texas School Depository Building where--
Mrs. PAINE. On Elm Street.
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Mr. JENNER. I heard you mention the Texas School Depository warehouse Did you think the warehouse was at 411 Elm?
Mrs. PAINE. No. I had seen a sign on a building as I went along one of the limited access highways that leads into Dallas, saying "Texas School Book Depository Warehouse" and there was the only building that had registered on my consciousness as being Texas School Book Depository.
I was not aware, hadn't taken in the idea of there being two buildings and that there was one on Elm, though, I copied the address from the telephone book, and could well have made that notation in my mind but I didn't.
The first I realized that there was a building on Elm was when I heard on the television on the morning of the 22d of November that a shot had been fired from such a building.
Mr. JENNER. For the purpose of this record then I would like to emphasize you were under the impression then, were you, that Lee Harvey Oswald was employed?
Mrs. PAINE. At the warehouse.
Mr. JENNER. Other than at 411, a place at 411 Elm?
Mrs. PAINE. I thought he worked at the warehouse. I had in fact, pointed out the building to my children going into Dallas later after he had gained employment.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever discuss with Lee Harvey Oswald where he actually was employed, that is the location of the building?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I didn't.
Mr. JENNER. Did he ever mention it?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. There never was any discussion between you and, say, young Mr. Frazier or Mrs. Randle or anyone in the neighborhood as to where the place of employment is located?
Mrs. PAINE. No. It may be significant here to say, my letter to which I have already referred--
Mr. JENNER. Commission Exhibit No.
Mrs. PAINE. 425, which says, "Lee Oswald is looking for work in Dallas, does not give a time of day.
Mr. JENNER. What is the date of that letter?
Mrs. PAINE. October 14, Monday.
Mr. JENNER. This is the letter to your mother?
Mrs. PAINE. But I don't normally write letters any time except when the children are asleep, they sometimes nap but usually this is in the evening.
If it were in the evening it means that he had gotten the suggestion as to a place to apply, but I didn't mention that. I only mentioned that he was looking and was discouraged.
I bring this out simply to say that I had no real hopes that he would get a job at the School Book Depository.
I didn't think it too likely that he would, but it was worth a try.
Mr. JENNER. Did you hear from him then either on the 14th or 15th in respect to his effort to obtaining employment at the Texas School Depository?
Mrs. PAINE. He called immediately on Tuesday, the 15th, after he had been accepted and said he would start work the next day.
Mr. JENNER. When you say immediately, what time of day was that?
Mrs. PAINE. Midmorning I would say, which was contrary to his usual practice of calling in the early evening.
Mr. JENNER. By the way, is the call from Dallas, Tex., to Irving a toll call?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. What is its cost, 10 cents?
Mrs. PAINE. I expect so.
Mr. JENNER. Did you answer the phone on the occasion he called?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. What happened?
Mrs. PAINE. He asked for Marina.
Mr. JENNER. He said nothing to you about his success?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
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Mr. JENNER. As soon as you answered he asked for Marina?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did he identify himself?
Mrs. PAINE. No; but I am certain he knew that I knew who he was.
Mr. JENNER. You recognized his voice, did you?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You called her to the phone.
Did you hear her end of the conversation?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. What took place by way of-- of conversation?
Mrs. PAINE. She said, "Hurray, he has got a job." Immediately telling me as she still talked to the telephone that he had been accepted for work at the school book depository and thanks to me and she said, "We must thank Mrs. Randle."
Mr. JENNER. Did you return to the telephone and speak with him?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. You did not. Where was he residing then, did you know?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I did not know.
Mr. JENNER. Had you had any information that he was not residing at the YMCA?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. How did you come by that information?
Mrs. PAINE. He gave me a telephone number, possibly this same weekend.
Mr. JENNER. That is of importance, Mrs. Paine. Would you give us the circumstances, please?
Mrs. PAINE. He said that he was at a--
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, where was he when he said this?
Mrs. PAINE. He was at the home so far as I remember. It might have been during one of his telephone calls to the house, but I don't think so. He rarely talked with me when he was out.
Mr. JENNER. This would be the weekend of what?
Mrs. PAINE. So this must have been the weekend of the 12th of October, the same weekend.
Mr. JENNER. That was the weekend following his return to Dallas on the 7th of October?
Mrs. PAINE. Fourth of October.
Mr. JENNER. He departed on the 7th.
Mrs. PAINE. His return to Dallas, I am sorry.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; now, give it as chronologically as you can; how you came by that telephone number, the circumstances under which it was given to you.
Mrs. PAINE. He said this is the telephone number.
Mr. JENNER. Was Marina present?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. He said of the room where he was staying, renting a room, and I could reach him here if she went into labor.
Mr. JENNER. I see, the coming of the baby was imminent?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. When was the baby expected?
Mrs. PAINE. Any time after the first week in October. Any time, in other words.
Mr. JENNER. The obstetrician predicted the birth of the child as when?
Mrs. PAINE. As due on the 22d.
Mr. JENNER. Did Marina have a different notion?
Mrs. PAINE. She thought it might be due around the 8th.
Mr. JENNER. So there was a considerable variance in the expectation between the date and when the baby actually did arrive? When did the baby actually arrive?
Mrs. PAINE. On the 20th of October, a Sunday.
Mr. JENNER. Did he give you more than one telephone number?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr JENNER. At this occasion did he give you more than one telephone number?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
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Mr. JENNER. Just stick to this particular occasion. What telephone number--did you record it?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. In what?
Mrs. PAINE. In ink in my telephone book.
Mr. JENNER. Your telephone and address book?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Have you opened that telephone address book to the page in which you have made that recording?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I have.
Mr. JENNER. Is that the page you identified yesterday?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, Mr. Chairman, may I examine it for a moment here.
Now, relate for the record the telephone number that Mr. Oswald gave you, the first one he gave you on this particular occasion?
Mrs. PAINE. The number was WH 2-1985.
Mr. JENNER. And that is at the bottom of the page written in ink.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Is that in your handwriting?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is.
Mr. JENNER. What exchange is "WH" in Dallas?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't know. I did not know. I know now, maybe I know, Whitehall, something. I know now what it is, but I didn't know then.
Mr. JENNER. Did he on that occasion say anything about where the apartment or room was?
Mrs. PAINE. No; he did not.
Mr. JENNER. He did not give you an address?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Didn't locate it in any area in Dallas?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. All he gave you was the telephone number?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything that would indicate to you that you are other than free to call him and ask for him by his surname you knew him by?
Mrs. PAINE. No; he did not make such a limitation.
Mr. JENNER. I take it from your testimony that the number was given to you, at least the discussion was, so that you could call him in connection with the oncoming event of the birth of his child?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Am I correct about this?
Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Now, you have mentioned a second number that Mr. Oswald, Lee Harvey Oswald, gave you. Did you receive that second number subsequent to the birth of Rachel or prior to that time?
Mrs. PAINE. Also prior to the birth of Rachel.
Mr. JENNER. Now, relate for the Commission the circumstances under which you received a second number?
Mrs. PAINE. He gave me a second number, I suppose by phone, but I don't recall.
Mr. JENNER. When?
Mrs. PAINE. It was certainly before the birth of the baby because again it was so that I could reach him if she went to the hospital.
Mr. JENNER. He called you or related this to you in your home?
Mrs. PAINE. What?
Mr. JENNER. He either called you by telephone or he was present in your home and gave you the second number?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Which recollection serves you best, that he called or that he gave it to you in your home?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall.
Mr. JENNER. What did he say?
Mrs. PAINE. He said he moved to different rooms, was paying a dollar a
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week more, $8 instead of $7; incidentally, I needed to know how much he was paying in order to put this on the form of Parkland Hospital, but that it was a little more comfortable and he had television privileges and privileges to use the refrigerator. And he gave me this number.
Mr. JENNER. This was after he obtained employment with the Texas School Book Depository, was it?
Mrs. PAINE. I would rationalize that I have judged so.
Mr. JENNER. Is it your best recollection?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. On the second occasion did he give you the location or even the area in Dallas where his second room was located?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Did you inquire of him?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. No address?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Was the telephone number given you with any reservation as to when you might call him?
Mrs. PAINE. No such reservation.
Mr. JENNER. Any indication that you should ask him, asking for him by other than his surname by which you knew him?
Mrs. PAINE. No such indication.
Mr. JENNER. Now, the baby was born on the--
Mrs. PAINE. Twentieth.
Mr. JENNER. Twentieth of October. Was Lee present, in town, I mean?
Mrs. PAINE. He was at the house in Irving when labor began, and stayed at the house to take care of June and my two children who were sleeping while I took Marina to the hospital since I was the one who could drive.
Mr. JENNER. All right. The 20th is--when did you take her to the hospital?
Mrs. PAINE. Around 9 o'clock in the evening.
Mr. JENNER. What day?
Mrs. PAINE. Sunday, the 20th of October.
Mr. JENNER. And Lee Harvey Oswald was out there on that weekend on one of his regular visits?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. The first one since he had employment.
Representative FORD. Did you ever call either one of those numbers?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. We will get to it.
Mr. JENNER. You will forgive me because I would like to bring out the particular circumstances of the call.
Representative FORD. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did Lee go back into town on Monday to go to work?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; he did. I informed him in the morning that he had a baby girl. He was already asleep when 1 got back--no; that is not right. He was not asleep when I got back from the hospital, but he had gone to bed, and I stayed up and waited to call the hospital to hear what word there was. So, that I knew after he was already asleep that he had a baby girl. I told him in the morning before he went to work.
Mr. JENNER. You called him in Dallas?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. I am a little confused.
Mrs. PAINE. No; I am sorry, I will begin again. I took her to the hospital and then I returned. I didn't feel I could stay. I thought I should get back to my children.
Mr. JENNER. This was Sunday night?
Mrs. PAINE. Sunday night.
He went to bed I stayed up and waited until what I considered a proper time and then called the hospital to hear what news there was. They had implied I could come and visit, too, but that would have been incorrect, and learned that he had a baby girl. I then went to bed and told him in the morning.
Mr. JENNER. You did not awaken him then?
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Mrs. PAINE. I did not awaken him. I thought about it and I decided if he was not interested in being awake I would tell him in the morning.
Mr. JENNER. And the morning was Monday?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Having learned that he was the father of a baby girl, I assume you told him that?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did he go to work that day?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did he return to Irving that evening?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. It was agreed when he left that he would return that evening.
Mr. JENNER. How did he--was he brought back to Irving that evening?
Mrs. PAINE. I imagine Wesley brought him.
Mr. JENNER. At least you did not?
Mrs. PAINE. I did not.
Mr. JENNER. Did he visit with Marina at the hospital that evening?
Mrs. PAINE. When he arrived it was not decided whether he would go to the hospital or not. He thought not, and I thought he should, and encouraged him to go.
Mr. JENNER. Why did he think he ought not to go?
Mrs. PAINE. I am uncertain about this. This thought crossed my mind that perhaps he thought they would find out. he was working, but I had already told them he was working since I had been asked at the hospital when she was admitted and I mentioned this and it may have changed his mind about going, but this is conjecture on my part.
Mr. JENNER. In any event he did go?
Mrs. PAINE. He did go. It was a good thing as he was the only one admitted, I was not either a father or grandmother so I was not permitted to get in.
Mr. JENNER. I see, and you waited until his visit was over and returned home with him?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Did he return to work the next morning?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; he did.
Mr. JENNER. When next did you hear from him?
Mrs. PAINE. The following Friday he came out again.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know how he returned to Dallas that following morning, that is the 22d?
Mrs. PAINE. Probably went with Wesley also.
Mr. JENNER. And he came out the following weekend, did he?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. That was his birthday.
Mr. JENNER. The 18th of October is his birthday. Did you have a party for him?
Mrs. PAINE. We had a cake; yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Was that weekend uneventful?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, Marina was already home.
Mr. JENNER. The baby was now home. She came home very quickly?
Mrs. PAINE. Very quickly, a day and a half. She was home on Tuesday, the 16th, is that right-- skipped a day, the 22d. So that his party was the week before, too. I was wrong then.
Mr. JENNER. When did he return, on Friday of that week?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, which was the 25th. I was mistaken.
Mr. JENNER. Did he call in each day in the interim?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr JENNER. And talk to Marina and to you?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, to Marina.
Mr. JENNER. Inquire about the baby?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You overheard some of the conversation?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Was anything said about the nature of his reaction to his position
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at the Texas School Book Depository on the second weekend when he came home?
Mrs. PAINE. You are talking about the weekend of the 26th?
Mr. JENNER. That is right.
Mrs. PAINE. No; I don't recall anything being said.
Mr. JENNER. Now, the next weekend was November 1st to 3d, which is Friday to Sunday, is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE. Right.
Mr. JENNER. Was he home on that weekend?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; he was.
Mr. JENNER. And did anything eventful occur on that weekend?
Mrs. PAINE. Just a minute. What I was looking for, I wanted to find out whether I had taught a Russian lesson to my single student whom I saw some Saturday afternoon on that weekend, and I recall that I did not. So, the answer is no. I was there that Saturday. May I say if there was a weekend other than October 12 when he came on Saturday instead of Friday night, it was to have been that weekend?
Mr. JENNER. Which weekend?
Mrs. PAINE. The weekend of the 1st to the 3d. That is my best recollection anyway.
Mr. JENNER. All right. But other than that possibility, there was nothing--it was a normal weekend at your home?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, following that weekend, which was the weekend of November 8 through 10, I think you have already described that weekend. That was the one on which you went to the Texas driver's application bureau, is it not?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. I recall him writing something on the early morning of Saturday--this "Dear Sirs" letter.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; this is the letter or draft of letter dealing with his reporting his visit to Mexico.
Mrs. PAINE. Or stating that he had done such a thing, which I did not fully credit.
Mr. JENNER. Did he come the following weekend, that is the weekend of November 15 through 17?
Mrs. PAINE. No; he did not.
Mr. JENNER. Why?
Mrs. PAINE. Marina asked him not to.
Mr. JENNER. This was the weekend preceding the ill-fated assassination day?
Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Why did she ask him not to?
Mrs. PAINE. She felt he had overstayed his welcome the previous weekend which had been 3 days, 9th, 10th, and 11th because he was off Veterans Day,. the 11th of November, and she felt it would be simpler and more comfortable if he didn't come out.
Mr. JENNER. Had you had a discussion with her prior to that time on that subject?
Mrs. PAINE. I had not suggested that to her.
Mr. JENNER. Did you overhear her tell him that?
Mrs. PAINE. I did tell her I was planning a birthday party for my little girl, and I heard her tell Lee not to come out because I was having a birthday party. At some point in this same telephone conversation likely I told him he did not need to have a car but to go himself to the driver training station.
Mr. JENNER. You have described that event for us heretofore this afternoon.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Or this morning, I have forgotten which.
Mr. McCLOY. May I interrupt here. I wonder whether or not you would want to take a rest now. We have been pretty arduous and let's take a little recess now.
(Short recess.)
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Reporter, would you read the last interchange or question and answer?
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(The reporter read the question and answer.)
Mr. JENNER. Would you fix as best you can for us, the date or time that you first saw the wrapped blanket after you had returned to Irving? How long after that event did you see it to the best of your recollection?
Mrs. PAINE. I have said it was the latter part of October. I don't think I can fix it more exactly.
Mr. JENNER. That would be almost or would be over a month afterwards? You returned on September 24?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall thinking, that is, that anything like that marks it as being particular noticeable. So that I am judging that I recall seeing it in October, somewhere towards the end.
Mr. JENNER. Had anything occurred at that time that now leads you to fix it at the latter part of October?
Mrs. PAINE. No; there is no way that I have to fix it.
Mr. JENNER. Did you stumble over it or something?
Mr. McCLOY. Could it have been as early as October 4 or the 7th when you first got the call from him when he first returned to Dallas?
Mrs. PAINE. Conceivably, but I don't remember.
Mr. DULLES. Then you saw it on another occasion, how many days later was that?
Mrs. PAINE. I can't fix it that near.
Mr. DULLES. It was several days later, was it, the time when it seemed to have been moved from position “X” to position “XX”?
Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes; that was later.
Mr. McCLOY Can you place it at all, can you place your recollection at all as having seen it in relation to the assassination? The date of the assassination? Was it 2 weeks before, 3 weeks before?
Mrs. PAINE. I have inquired of myself for some weeks, was such a package in my station wagon when I arrived from New Orleans, and I cannot recall it, but I cannot be at all certain that there wasn't. I certainly didn't unload it. I never lifted such a package.
Mr. JENNER. Only you and Marina took things out of your station wagon at that time?
Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And you did not----
Mrs. PAINE. So I think I would have seen it.
Mr. DULLES. In your earlier testimony I think in reply to a question, you indicated that you and Marina had only talked about this after the assassination that afternoon.
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. DULLES. If it is not out of order, I would like to get that into the testimony maybe at this date what took place between them at that time.
Mr. JENNER. On the 22d?
Mr. DULLES. Yes.
Mr. McCLOY. I think it is best to leave it at the 22d.
Mr. JENNER. I was going to take her chronologically.
Mr. DULLES. Just so you recall that.
Mr. McCLOY. But you can't recall having gone into the garage for any purpose and having stepped over this thing or around it at any time that you would associate with his return from New Orleans and Houston, if he went to Houston?
Mrs. PAINE. My best recollection is that it was after, it was in October, therefore.
Mr. McCLOY. But later than the 7th of October, you think?
Mrs. PAINE. Later than that, yes. That is the best I can do.
Mr. McCLOY. But well before the day of November 22?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. I think I have oriented myself without having the reporter read and may I proceed, Mr. Chairman?
Mr. McCLOY. Surely.
Mr. JENNER. We have now reached the weekend of the 15th, 16th, and 17th, which is the weekend that Lee Harvey Oswald did not return to your home.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
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Mr. JENNER. You had just finished relating that Marina had told him not to come that particular
weekend?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, was there an occasion during the course of that weekend when a phone call was made to Lee Harvey Oswald. I direct your attention particularly to Sunday evening, the 17th of November.
Mrs. PAINE. Looking back on it, I thought that there was a call made to him by me on Monday the 18th, but I may be wrong about when it was made.
Mr. JENNER. Did Marina call him this Sunday evening, November 17?
Mrs. PAINE. No. There was only one call made at any one time to him, to my knowledge.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall an occasion when a call was made to him and you girls were unable to reach him when that call was made?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. I will describe the call, and there is a dispute over what night it was.
Mr. JENNER. I would like your best recollection, first as to when it occurred. Was it during the weekend that he did not return to your home, the weekend immediately preceding the assassination day? Do you recall that Marina was lonesome and she wished you to make a call to Lee and you did so at her request?
Mrs. PAINE. I recall certainly we had talked with Lee, on the telephone already that weekend because he called to say that he had been to attempt to get a driver's license permit.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. PAINE. Whether he called that Saturday or whether he had called Sunday, I am not certain. Indeed, I am not certain but what he had called the very day, had already called and talked with Marina the very day that I then, at her request, tried to reach him at the number he had given. me, with his number in my telephone book.
Junie was fooling with the telephone dial, and Marina said, "Let's call papa" and asked me--
Mr. JENNER. Was this at night?
Mrs. PAINE. It was early evening, still light.
Mr. JENNER. Was it on a weekend?
Mrs. PAINE. I would have said it was Monday but I am not certain of that.
Mr. JENNER. Was it
Mrs. PAINE. That is my best recollection, is that it was Monday.
Mr. JENNER. All we want is your best recollection. If it was a Monday, was it the Monday following the weekend that he did not come?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, certainly it was.
Mr. JENNER. I see. That is if it was a Monday, it was the Monday preceding November 22?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. DULLES. Could I ask one question?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. DULLES. Was there any evidence that the hint you gave, or that was given, to Lee Harvey not to come over this weekend caused him any annoyance? Was he put out by this, and did he indicate it?
Mrs. PAINE. I made no such request of him. Marina talked with him on the phone.
Mr. DULLES. I realize that.
Mrs. PAINE. And she made no mention of any irritation. Of course, I didn't hear what he said in response to her asking him not to come.
Mr. DULLES. And it didn't come out in any of these subsequent telephone messages which we are now discussing?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I think I probably talked with him during that same telephone conversation to say that he could go without a car, and there was no irritation I noticed.
Mr. DULLES. Thank you.
Mr. JENNER. But it is your definite recollection that his failure to come on the weekend preceding the assassination was not at his doing but at the request of Marina, under the circumstances you have related?
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Mrs. PAINE. I am absolutely clear about that.
Mr. JENNER. You are. absolutely clear about that. All right. Now, state, you began to state the circumstances of the telephone call. Would you in your own words and your own chronology proceed with that, please?
Mrs. PAINE. Marina had said, "Let's call papa," in Russian and asked me to dial the number for her, knowing that I had a number that he had given us. I then dialed the number--
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, did you dial the first or the second number?
Mrs. PAINE. The second number.
Mr. JENNER. And that number is?
Mrs. PAINE. WH 3-8993.
Mr. JENNER. When you dialed the number did someone answer?
Mrs. PAINE. Someone answered and I said, "Is Lee Oswald there?" And the person replied, "There is no Lee Oswald here," or something to that effect.
Mr. JENNER. Would it refresh your recollection if he said, "There is nobody by that name here"?
Mrs. PAINE. Or it may have been "nobody by that name" or "I don't know Lee Oswald." It could have been any of these.
Mr. JENNER. We want your best recollection.
Mrs. PAINE. My best recollection is that he repeated the name.
Mr. JENNER. He repeated the name?
Mrs. PAINE. But that is not a certain recollection.
Mr. JENNER. I take it then from the use of the pronoun that the person who answered was a man?
Mrs. PAINE. Was a man.
Mr. JENNER. And if you will just sit back and relax a little. I would like to have you restate, if you now will, in your own words, what occurred? You dialed the telephone, someone answered, a male voice?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. What did he say and what did you say?
Mrs. PAINE. I said, "Is Lee Oswald there." He said, "There is no Lee Oswald living here." As best as I can recall. This is the substance of what he said. I said, "Is this a rooming house." He said "Yes." I said, "Is this WH 3-8993?" And he said "Yes." I thanked him and hung up.
Mr. JENNER. When you hung up then what did you next do or say?
Mrs. PAINE. I said to Marina, "They don't know of a Lee Oswald at that number."
Mr. JENNER. What did she say?
Mrs. PAINE. She didn't say anything.
Mr. JENNER. Just said nothing?
Mrs. PAINE. She looked surprised.
Mr. JENNER. Did she evidence any surprise?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; she did, she looked surprised.
Mr. DULLES. You are quite sure you used the first name "Lee," did you, you did not say just "Mr. Oswald," or something of that kind?
Mrs. PAINE. I would not say "Mr. Oswald." It is contrary to Quaker practice, and I don't normally do it that way.
Mr. JENNER. Contrary to Quaker practice?
Mrs. PAINE. They seldom use "Mister."
Mr. JENNER. I see.
Mr. DULLES. And you wouldn't have said "Harvey Oswald," would you?
Mrs. PAINE. I knew he had a middle name but only because I filled out forms in Parkland Hospital. It was never used with him.
Mr. JENNER. You do recall definitely that you asked for Lee Oswald?
Mrs. PAINE. I cannot be that definite. But I believe I asked for him. Oh, yes; I recall definitely what I asked. I cannot be definite about the man's reply, whether he included the full name in his reply.
Mr. JENNER. But you did?
Mrs. PAINE. I asked for the full name, "Is Lee Oswald there."
Mr. JENNER. Did you report this incident to the FBI?
Mrs. PAINE. I had no occasion to see them, and I did not think it important enough to call them after that until the 23d of November.
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Mr. JENNER. Perhaps I may well have deferred that question until after I asked you the next.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did any event occur the following day with respect to this telephone call?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; Lee called--
Mr. JENNER. What was it?
Mrs. PAINE. Lee called at the house and asked for Marina. I was in the kitchen where the phone is while Marina talked with him, she clearly was upset, and angry, and when she hung up--
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, did you overhear this conversation?
Mrs. PAINE. I overheard the conversation but I can't tell you specific content.
Mr. JENNER. Please, Mrs. Paine, would you do your very best to recall what was said?
Mrs. PAINE. I can tell you what she said to me which was immediately after, which is what I definitely recall.
Mr. JENNER. Thank you.
Mrs. PAINE. She said immediately he didn't like her trying to reach him at the phone in his room at Dallas yesterday. That he was angry with her for having tried to reach him. That he said he was using a different name, and she said, "This isn't the first time I felt 22 fires," a Russian expression.
Mr. JENNER. This is something she said?
Mrs. PAINE. She said this. This is not the first time, but it was the first time she had mentioned it to me.
Mr. JENNER. Give her exact words to me again.
Mrs. PAINE. When she felt 22 fires.
Mr. JENNER. That is the expression she used?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you understand what she meant or, if not, did you ask for an explanation?
Mrs. PAINE. I did not ask for an explanation. I judged she meant, she disagreed with his using a different name, but didn't feel like, empowered to make him do otherwise or even perhaps ask to as a wife.
Mr. DULLES. How long a conversation was this. Was it---
Mrs. PAINE. Fairly short.
Mr. DULLES. Fairly short.
Mrs. PAINE. That is my recollection.
Representative FORD. What day of the month and what day of the week was this?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, reconstructing it, I thought they succeeded each other, the original call to the WH number on Monday and his call back on Tuesday.
Representative FORD. When he called back it was late in the afternoon or early evening,?
Mrs. PAINE. It was the normal time for him to call back, early evening, around 5:30.
Mr. JENNER. You have a definite impression she was angry when she hung up?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Was she abrupt in her hanging up. Did she hang up on him?
Mrs. PAINE. No; she was angry, she was upset.
Mrs JENNER. And her explanation of her being upset was that he used the assumed name?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, she didn't explain it as such, but she said he had used it.
Mr. JENNER. He was angry with her because you had made the call?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Or she had made it through you?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did any further discussion take place between you and Marina on that subject?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. The following day he did not call at the usual time.
Mr. JENNER. That would be the following day, the 20th?
Mrs. PAINE. I believe that was a Wednesday and that is how I slipped a day.
Mr. JENNER. He didn't call at all on the succeeding day?
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Mrs. PAINE. He didn't call at all, and she said to me as the time for normally calling passed, "He thinks he is punishing me."
Mr. JENNER. For what?
Mrs. PAINE. For having been a bad wife, I would judge, for having done something he didn't want her to do, the objection.
Mr. JENNER. To wit, the telephone call about which you have told us?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you and Marina go through a normal day that day, or was there any other subject of discussion with respect to Lee Oswald on that day?
Mrs. PAINE. Nothing I would specifically recall; no.
Mr. JENNER. This was the 20th of November, a Wednesday?
Mrs. PAINE. To the best of my recollection.
Mr. JENNER. Let's proceed with the 21st. Did anything occur on the 21st with respect to Lee Harvey Oswald, that is a Thursday?
Mrs. PAINE. I arrived home from grocery shopping around 5:30, and he was on the front lawn. I was surprised to see him.
Mr. JENNER. You had no advance notice?
Mrs. PAINE. I had no advance notice and he had never before come without asking whether he could.
Mr. JENNER. Never before had he come to your home in that form without asking your permission to come?
Mrs. PAINE. Without asking permission; that is right.
Mr. JENNER. And he was out on the lawn as you drove up, on your lawn?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right. Playing with June and talking with Marina, who was also out on the lawn.
Mr. JENNER. And you were, of course, surprised to see him?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mrs. JENNER. Did you park your car in the driveway as usual?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you walk over to speak with him?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, got out, very likely picked some groceries out of the car and he very likely picked some up too, and this is I judge what may have happened.
Mr. JENNER. Tell the Commission what was said between you and Lee Oswald?
Mrs. PAINE. Between me and Lee Oswald?
Mr. JENNER. Yes; on that occasion.
Mrs. PAINE. That is not what I recall. I recall talking with Marina on the side.
Mr. JENNER. First. Didn't you greet him?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I greeted him.
Mr. JENNER. And then what did you do, walk in the house?
Mrs. PAINE. As we were walking in the house, and he must have preceded because Marina and I spoke in private to one another, she apologized.
Mr. JENNER. Was Marina out on the lawn also?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, sir. She apologized for his having come without permission and I said that was all right, and we said either then or later--I recall exchanging our opinion that this was a way of making up the quarrel or as close as he could come to an apology for the fight on the telephone, that his coming related to that, rather than anything else.
Mr. JENNER. That was her reaction to his showing up uninvited and unexpectedly on that particular afternoon, was it?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, it was rather my own, too.
Mr. JENNER. And it was your own?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And because of this incident of the telephone call and your not being able to reach him, and the subsequent talk between Lee and Marina in which there had been some anger expressed, you girls reached the conclusion the afternoon of November 21 that he was home just to see if he could make up with Marina?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Do I fairly state it?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
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Mr. JENNER. What did you do that evening? Did you have occasion to note what he did?
Mrs. PAINE. We had dinner as usual, and then I sort of bathed my children, putting them to bed and reading them a story, which put me in one part of the house. When that was done I realized he had already gone to bed, this being now about 9 o'clock. I went out to the garage to paint some children's blocks, and worked in the garage for half an hour or so. I noticed when I went out that the light was on.
Mr. JENNER. The light was on in the garage?
Mrs. PAINE. The light was on in the garage.
Mr. JENNER. Was this unusual?
Mrs. PAINE. Oh, it was unusual for it to be on; yes. I realized that I felt Lee, since Marina had also been busy with her children, had gone out to the garage, perhaps worked out there or gotten something. Most of their clothing was still out there, all of their winter things. They were getting things out from time to time, warmer things for the cold weather, so it was not at all remarkable that he went to the garage, but I thought it careless of him to have left the light on. I finished my work and then turned off the light and left the garage.
Mr. JENNER. Have you completed that now?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You stated that he was in the garage, how did you know he was in the garage?
Mr. McCLOY. She didn't state that.
Mrs. PAINE. I didn't state it absolutely. I guessed it was he rather than she. She was busy with the children and the light had been on and I know I didn't leave the light on.
Mr. JENNER. Then, I would ask you directly, did you see him in the garage at anytime from the time you first saw him on the lawn until he retired for the night?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Until you retired for the night?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Was he out on the lawn after dinner or supper?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't believe so.
Mr. JENNER. Did you hear any activity out in the garage on that evening?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I did not.
Mr. JENNER. Any persons moving about?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. The only thing that arrested your attention was the fact that you discovered the light on in the garage?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Before you retired?
Representative FORD. You discovered that when you went out to work there?
Mrs. PAINE. When I went out to work there.
Mr. McCLOY. When you went out there, did you notice the blanket?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall specifically seeing the blanket. I certainly recall on the afternoon of the 22d where it had been.
Mr. DULLES. Was there any evidence of any quarreling or any harsh words between Lee Harvey and Marina that evening that you know of?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Was there a coolness between them?
Mrs. PAINE. He went to bed very early, she stayed up and talked with me some, but there was no coolness that I noticed. He was quite friendly on the lawn as we--
Mr. JENNER. I mean coolness between himself and---between Lee and Marina.
Mrs. PAINE. I didn't notice any such coolness. Rather, they seemed warm, like a couple making up a small spat, I should interject one thing here, too, that I recall as I entered the house and Lee had just come in, I said to him, "Our President is coming to town."
And he said, "Ah, yes," and walked on into the kitchen, which was a common
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reply from him on anything. I was just excited about this happening, and there was his response. Nothing more was said about it.
Mr. DULLES. I didn't quite catch his answer.
Mrs. PAINE. "Ah, yes," a very common answer.
Mr. JENNER. He gave no more than that laconic answer?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Had there been any discussion between you and Marina that the President was coming into town the next day?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did she say anything on that subject in the presence of Lee that evening?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall anything of that sort.
Mr. JENNER. What time did you have dinner that evening?
Mrs. PAINE. 6 or 6:30, I would guess.
Mr. JENNER. And calling on your recollection, Mrs. Paine, following dinner do you remember any occasion that evening when Lee was out of the house and you didn't see him around the house, and you were conscious of the fact he was not in the house?
Mrs. PAINE. I was not at anytime of the opinion that he was out of the house, conscious of it.
Mr. JENNER. You have no recollection of his being out of the house anytime that evening?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. DULLES. Did he do any reading that evening--books, papers, anything?
Mrs. PAINE. Not to my recollection.
Mr. JENNER. What were you doing that evening?
Mrs. PAINE. I have tried already to describe that after dinner, and probably after some dishes were done.
Mr. JENNER. Who did the dishes?
Mrs. PAINE. Very likely Marina, it depended on who made the meal. I normally cooked the meal and then she did the dishes or we reversed occasionally. But I have tried to say I was very likely involved in the back bedroom and in the bathroom giving the children a bath, getting them in their pajamas and reading a story for as much as an hour.
Mr. JENNER. That would take as much as an hour?
Mrs. PAINE. That takes as much as an hour.
Mr. JENNER. By this time we are up to approximately 7:30 or 8 o'clock, are we?
Mrs. PAINE. Oh no; we are up to nearly 9 o'clock by now. We eat from 6:30 to after 7, do some dishes, brings it up toward 8, and then put the children to bed.
Mr. JENNER. When you had had your children put to bed and came out of their room, was Lee, had he then by that time retired?
Mrs. PAINE. That is my recollection.
Mr. DULLES. Did you have any words with Marina about the light in the garage? Was that a subject of conversation between you?
Mrs. PAINE. No; we didn't discuss it.
Mr. DULLES. You didn't mention it to her?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I didn't discuss it.
Representative FORD. Did he ever help in the kitchen at all, in any way whatsoever?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, I have said he once did dishes in New Orleans, but that is about all I recall that he did.
Representative FORD. But in Dallas, in your home, he never volunteered?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. McCLOY. Marina did help around the house?
Mrs. PAINE. She helped a great deal.
Mr. McCLOY. She was a good helper?
Mrs. PAINE. She is a hard worker.
Mr. JENNER. Tell us, the time you came out of the bedroom and put your children to bed when you noticed the light in the garage; fix as well as you can the time of evening.
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Mrs. PAINE. I think it was about 9 o'clock.
Mr. JENNER. That is when you noticed the light in the garage, around 9 o'clock after you put your children to bed, and at that time Lee was already retired?
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Marina was still up?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. How long did she remain up?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall that evening from that point on much like any others, with the two of us up, we probably folded some diapers, laundry. Some evening close to that time, either that evening or the one before, we discussed plans for Christmas.
Mr. JENNER. You and Marina?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. But it was probably the evening before. I was thinking about making a playhouse for the children.
Mr. JENNER. Would you describe Lee's attire when you. first saw him on the lawn when you returned that evening?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall it.
Mr. JENNER. You have no recollection of that? Did he bring-do you know whether he brought anything with him in the way of paper or wrapper or luggage or this sticky tape, anything of that nature?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall seeing anything of that nature.
Mr. JENNER. Did you see any paper, wrapping paper, of the character that you have identified around your home that evening?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. McCLOY. Can't you recall a little more clearly how he generally was dressed? Did he have a coat on such as I have got on now, or did he have----
Mrs. PAINE. I never saw him in a suit jacket.
Mr. McCLOY. Suit jacket? What was his normal outer wear apparel?
Mrs. PAINE. His normal attire was T-shirt, cotton slacks, sometimes the T-shirt covered by a shirt, flannel or cotton shirt.
Mr. McCLOY. Do you recall whether he had that type of shirt over his T-shirt that night?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall.
Mr. McCLOY. You don't recall?
Mr. JENNER. Did -he have any kind of a shirt other than a T-shirt on him when you saw him?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't really remember.
Mr. JENNER. I wonder, Mr. Chairman, if despite the fact I haven't reached the next day, if we might excuse Mrs. Paine? She did tell me she had an appointment at 5:30 this evening, and I would like to have her think over more so she can be refreshed in the morning as to this particular evening. And, Mrs. Paine, I would have you trace the first thing in the morning as best as you can recall Lee Harvey Oswald's movements that evening and where he was, to the best that you are able to recall. Would you try to do that for us?
Mrs. PAINE. I think I probably have done the best I can, but I will do it again if you like.
Mr. JENNER. May we have permission to adjourn, Mr. Chairman?
Mr. McCLOY. Very well.
Mr. DULLES. Could I ask just one question? With regard to this sketch of the house, I was interested to know where you would see the light in the garage. Was it from out here?
Mrs. PAINE. This is a doorway into the garage from the kitchen area.
Mr. DULLES. And you saw that light from the kitchen area?
Mrs. PAINE. I think I was probably on my way to the garage anyway, opened the door, there was the light on.
Mr. DULLES. I see. There are no windows or anything. The door was closed and the light would not be visible if you hadn't gone into it?
Mrs. PAINE. It would be visible if it was dark in here.
Mr. DULLES. I understand. Through the door.
Representative FORD. And you spent about a half hour in the garage painting some blocks?
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Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Representative FORD. What part of the garage--
Mrs. PAINE. Close to the doorway here, the entrance, this entrance.
Representative FORD. The entrance going into the--
Mrs. PAINE. The doorway between the garage and the kitchen-dining area. Right here.
Representative FORD. You didn't move around the garage?
Mrs. PAINE. I moved around enough to get some shellac and brush and make a place, a block is this big, to paint.
Representative FORD. Where do you recollect, if you do, the blanket was at this time?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recollect. It was the next day--
Representative FORD. It was the forepart of the garage on the left-hand side?
Mrs. PAINE. Beyond.
Mr. McCLOY. Does anyone have any further questions?
Mr. JENNER. No questions, Mr. Chairman.
Representative Ford has directed the attention of the witness to the document which is now Exhibit No. 430, and when we reconvene in the morning I will qualify the exhibit.
Mr. McCLOY. Is that all?
We will reconvene at 9 a.m., tomorrow.
(Whereupon, at 5:30 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)
Friday, March 20, 1964
TESTIMONY OF RUTH HYDE PAINE RESUMED
The President's Commission met at 9:05 a.m. on Friday, March 20, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C.
Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Senator John Sherman Cooper, Representative Gerald R. Ford, and John J. McCloy, members.
Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel; and Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel.
Senator COOPER. Mrs. Paine, you, I think, yesterday affirmed, made affirmation as to the truthfulness of your testimony?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, I did.
Senator COOPER. You are still under that affirmation?
Mrs. PAINE. I understand that I am under that affirmation.
Mr. JENNER. May I proceed?
Thank you. Mrs. Paine, just to put you at ease this morning, Mr. Chairman, may I qualify some documents?
The CHAIRMAN. Good morning, gentlemen and ladies. How are you, Mrs. Paine? I am glad to see you this morning.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, I show you Commission Exhibit No. 425 which you produced and which you testified was the original of a letter of October 14, 1963, to your mother, part of which you read at large in the record. Is that document in your handwriting entirely?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is.
Mr. JENNER. You testified it is a letter from you to your mother?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Did you dispatch the letter?
Mrs. PAINE. I did.
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Mr. JENNER. In view of that fact would you explain for the record how you came into possession of the letter since you sent it to your mother?
Mrs. PAINE. She gave it to me a few days ago.
Mr. JENNER. Is the document now in the same condition it was when you mailed it to your mother?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is. You have the first page of two. The other page not being relative to this case.
Mr. JENNER. In other words, that there be no question about it, do you have the other page?
Mrs. PAINE. I have the other page.
Mr. JENNER. May I have it?
Mrs. PAINE. The other page, of course, contains my signature.
Mr. JENNER. Yes. May the record be amended to show that Commission Exhibit No. ----
Mrs. PAINE. I'd rather not have that part of it----
Mr. JENNER. It is not going into the record, Mrs. Paine. Just be patient.
Commission Exhibit 425 consists of two pages, that is two sheets. The pages are numbered from one through four. Would you look at the page numbered There is a signature appearing at the bottom of it. Is that your signature?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, may I postpone the offer of this document in evidence until I do read the second page, which the witness has now produced. You see, Mrs. Paine, that it may be important to the Commission to have the entire letter which would indicate the context in which the statements that are relevant were made.
You testified yesterday with regard to the draft of what appeared to be a letter that Mr. Oswald, Lee Harvey Oswald, was to send. It was thought he might send it to someone. I hand you a picture of a letter in longhand which has been identified as Commission Exhibit 103. Would you look at that please?
Do you recognize that handwriting?
Mrs. PAINE. No. This is the only time I saw--this is the only handwriting of his I have seen.
Mr. JENNER. You can't identify the document as such, that is, are you familiar enough with his handwriting----
Mrs. PAINE. To know that this is his handwriting?
Mr. JENNER. To identify whether that is or is not his handwriting.
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Have you ever seen that Document before?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I have.
Mr. JENNER. When did you first see it?
Mrs. PAINE. I first saw that on Saturday, the 9th of November. I don't believe I looked to see what it said until the morning of the 10th.
Mr. JENNER. I see. Now, do you recognize it, however, as a picture of the document that you did see on the 9th of November, or did you say 10th?
Mrs. PAINE. I'll say 10th, yes; it is that document.
Senator COOPER. What is the answer?
Mrs. PAINE. It is that document,
Mr. JENNER. And I take it from your testimony that after you had seen the original of this document, this document happens to be a photo, you saw a typed transcript of this document or substantially this document?
Mrs. PAINE. I never saw a typed transcript.
Mr. JENNER. You did not?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, you testified yesterday that Lee Harvey Oswald asked you if he could use your typewriter?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. And he did proceed to use the typewriter to type a letter or at least some document?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And that you saw a document folded in half and one portion of it arrested your attention?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; that is correct.
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Mr. JENNER. Was the document that arrested your attention the typed document or was it the document that is before you?
Mrs. PAINE. I never saw the typed document. It was the document that is before me, which I take to be a rough draft of what he typed.
Mr. JENNER. And you said you made a duplicate of the document. Did you make a duplicate in longhand or on your typewriter?
Mrs. PAINE. I made a duplicate in longhand.
Mr. JENNER. But you do have a present recollection that this, Commission Exhibit No. 103 for identification, is the document which you saw in your home on your desk secretary?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right,
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, I offer in evidence as Commission Exhibit No. 103 the document---oh, it is already in evidence. I withdraw that offer.
Senator COOPER. It is in evidence.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Redlich informs me, Mr. Chairman, that the document has already been admitted in evidence.
Now, would you follow me as I go through these? There has been marked as Commission's Exhibit 430, which is the mark at the moment for identification, what purports to be a floor plan outline of the Paine home at 2515 Fifth Street, Irving, Tex., and the witness made reference to that yesterday close to the close of her testimony yesterday afternoon. Directing your attention to that exhibit, is that an accurate floor plan outline of your home at 2515 Fifth Street, Irving, Tex.?
Mrs. PAINE. It is an approximately accurate floor plan.
Mr. JENNER. And is it properly entitled, that is, are the rooms and sections of the home properly entitled?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; they are.
Mr. JENNER. And does it accurately reflect the door openings, the hallways in your home and the garage?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is perfectly accurate.
Mr. JENNER. I think one thing only needs some. explanation. In the upper left-hand corner of the floor plan outline, there is a square space which has no lettering to identify that space. It is the area immediately to the left of the of what is designated as kitchen-dining area.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. That space is all one room with that which is designated kitchen-dining area. That is one large room.
Mr. JENNER. I see. So that even though on the floor plan outline the words "kitchen-dining area" appear in the right half of that space, that lettering and wording is to apply to all the space?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. And the driveway about which you testified is that portion of the ground outline which has the circle with the figure "8" and an arrow, is that right?
Mrs. PAINE. That is the driveway.
Mr. JENNER. And the driveway is where the car was parked because the garage always had too many things in it to get your car in?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Referring to Commission Exhibit No. 431 for identification, is that a front view of your home?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is.
Mr. JENNER. Were you present when the picture was taken?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I was.
Mr. JENNER. Commission Exhibit 432, is that a rear view of your home?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is.
Mr. JENNER. Were you present when that was taken?
Mrs. PAINE. Probably. I don't recall.
Mr. JENNER. But that is an accurate depiction?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Of the rear of your home?
Mrs. PAINE. It is certainly accurate.
Mr. JENNER. And showing some of your yard. The next Exhibit 433, is that view of the east side of your home?
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Mrs. PAINE. East and north; yes.
Mr. JENNER. And were you present when that was taken?
Mrs. PAINE. I wouldn't know.
Mr. JENNER. But it is an accurate depiction of that area of your home?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Commission Exhibit 434, is that a view of the west side of your home?
Mrs. PAINE. West and north.
Mr. JENNER. Were you present when that was taken?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall.
Mr. JENNER. Despite that, is it accurate?
Mrs. PAINE. It is perfectly accurate.
Mr. JENNER. Now, is Commission Exhibit 435 a view inside your home looking through the door leading to the garage from your kitchen?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is.
Mr. JENNER. And were you present when that was taken?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I was
Mr. JENNER. And is it accurate?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is.
Mr. JENNER. Commission Exhibit 436, is that a picture of the doorway area leading to the backyard of your home?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is.
Mr. JENNER. Were you present when that was taken?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I was.
Mr. JENNER. Is it accurate?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Commission Exhibit 437, is that the kitchen area in your home?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is.
Mr. JENNER. Now, were you present when that was taken?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I was.
Mr. JENNER. And is it accurate?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Returning now to the floor plan exhibit, Commission Exhibit 430, is Commission Exhibit 437, which is the kitchen area in your home, that portion of Commission Exhibit 430 which is lettered "kitchen-dining area."
Mrs. PAINE. It is a picture of that portion.
Mr. JENNER. Of that portion, rather than the portion to the left which is unlettered?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. The garage interior we identified yesterday. By the way, have you ever been in the Randle home?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I have.
Mr. JENNER. Have you been there often enough to identify a floor plan and pictures of the Randle home?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. I have been there perhaps once or twice.
Mr. McCLOY. Do you intend to call Mrs. Randle?
Mr. JENNER. Unfortunately Mrs. Randle has already testified and Mr. Ball when he questioned her did not have this exhibit. It wasn't in existence.
I show you a page marked Commission Exhibit No. 441 entitled "Randle Home, 2439 West Fifth Street, Irving, Tex.," purporting to be a floor plan outline of the Randle home. You have been in the Randle home?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I have.
Mr. JENNER. On several occasions?
Mrs. PAINE. Two or three; yes.
Mr. JENNER. And are you familiar with the general area of the Randle home?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Surrounding the Randle home?
Mrs. PAINE. Indeed; I am.
Mr. JENNER. And looking at Commission Exhibit 441, is that an accurate floor plan outline and general community outline of the Randle home?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I would say it is.
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Mr. JENNER. I show you Commission Exhibit 442. Is that an accurate and true and correct photograph showing the corner view of the Randle home?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is.
Mr. JENNER. Exhibit 443, is that an accurate photograph of a portion of the
kitchen portion, the front of the kitchen window of the Randle home?
Mrs. PAINE. I believe so.
Mr. JENNER. Does your recollection serve you----
Mrs. PAINE. I am trying to see if I know which is west and north there and I am not certain.
Mr. JENNER. Let us return to the floor plan.
Mrs. PAINE. This would be, yes, that is what I thought. This is looking then west.
Mr. JENNER. You have now oriented yourself. And is it an accurate picture of the front of the kitchen?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Senator COOPER. Which exhibit are you referring to now?
Mr. JENNER. The front of the Randle home No. 443. The next number, is that an accurate photograph of the area of the Randle home showing a view from the field from the Randle's kitchen window?
Mrs. PAINE. That is accurate.
Mr. JENNER. Across the street?
Mrs. PAINE. Correct.
Mr. JENNER. Commission Exhibit 445, is that an accurate photograph of the kitchen of the Randle home looking at the direction of the carport from the Randle home?
Mrs. PAINE. That is an accurate picture showing the door opening to the carport; yes.
Mr. JENNER. And the kitchen portion of the Randle home facing on the carport?
Mrs. PAINE. Correct.
Mr. JENNER. Have you ever been in the carport area of the Randle home?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I have.
Mr. JENNER. And is Commission Exhibit 446 a view of a portion of the carport area of the Randle home?
Mrs. PAINE. It looks like it.
Mr. JENNER. Now 447 is a photograph taken from the street looking toward the Randle home, is that right?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And it is the west side of the Randle house?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Showing that carport area?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And it is accurate, isn't it?
Mrs. PAINE. It is accurate.
Mr. JENNER. Commission Exhibit 438, is that an accurate photograph of the area of Irving Street showing not only the Randle house but also your home?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; that is accurate.
Mr. JENNER. And is Commission Exhibit 448--
Senator COOPER. What was the number of the photograph which you just referred to?
Mr. JENNER. 438. 438 is view looking northeast showing the Paine home at the left and the Randle home at the far right. Directing your attention to Commission Exhibit 448, is that an accurate photograph showing a view of the Randle home looking West Fifth Street?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Is Commission Exhibit 438 an accurate photograph showing a view looking west along Fifth Street to your home?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is.
Mr. JENNER. And is the arrow that appears on that photograph--does that point to your home?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Is Commission Exhibit No. 450, which I now show you, an accurate
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photograph of the intersection of Westbrook Drive and West Fifth Street viewed from immediately outside the Randle kitchen window?
Mrs. PAINE. It looks to be exactly that--
Mr. JENNER. I now show you Commission Exhibit No. 440 entitled "Paine and Randle homes, Irving, Tex." which purports to be, and I believe is, a scale drawing of the area in Irving, Tex., along West Fifth Street and Westbrook Drive, in which your home at 2515 West Fifth Street is shown in outline, and the location and form of the Randle home down the street and on the corner is likewise shown.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Is that accurate?
Mrs. PAINE. That is accurate.
Senator COOPER. Are you going to make part of the record these exhibits which she has identified?
Mr. JENNER. Yes; I am about to offer these and I would ask Mr. Redlich if he would assemble the exhibit numbers so I can make the offer, please.
Mrs. Paine, now that you have had a rest over night, we would like to return to the late afternoon and the evening of November 21. Did Lee Harvey Oswald come to Irving, Tex., at anytime that day?
Mrs. PAINE. He came some time shortly before 5:30 in the evening on the 21st.
Mr. JENNER. Had either you or Marina, I limit it to you first, had you had any notice or intimation whatsoever that Lee Harvey Oswald would appear on that day?
Mrs. PAINE. Absolutely none.
Mr. JENNER. And his appearance was a complete surprise to you?
Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Did anything occur during the day or during that week up to the time that you saw Lee Harvey Oswald that afternoon that impressed yon or led you to believe that Marina had any notion whatsoever that her husband would or might appear at your home on that day?
Mrs. PAINE. Nothing. I rather had the contrary impressions.
Mr. JENNER. Now, what was your first notice, what was the circumstances that brought your attention to the fact that Lee Harvey Oswald was in Irving, Tex., that afternoon.
Mrs. PAINE. I arrived home from the grocery store in my car and saw he was on the front lawn at my house.
Mr. JENNER. You had had no word whatsoever from anybody prior to that moment?
Mrs. PAINE. No word whatsoever.
Mr. JENNER. Now where was he? And we may use the exhibits we have just identified. Mr. Chairman, I offer in evidence the photographs and the floor plans and the area outlines the witness has just identified and testified about as they are Commission Exhibit Nos. 429 through 448 both inclusive, and 450 and 452.
Senator COOPER. The exhibits offered will be received in evidence.
(Commission Exhibits Nos. 429 through 448 both inclusive, and 450 and 452 were received in evidence. )
The CHAIRMAN. Senator Cooper, at this time I am obliged to leave for our all-day conference on Friday at the Supreme Court, and I may be back later in the day, but if I don't, you continue, of course.
Senator COOPER. I will this morning. If I can't be here this afternoon, whom do you want to preside?
The CHAIRMAN. Congressman Ford, would you be here this afternoon at all?
Representative FORD. Unfortunately Mr. McCloy and I have to go to a conference out of town.
The CHAIRMAN. You are both going out of town, aren't you?
Senator COOPER. I can go and come back if it is necessary.
The CHAIRMAN. I will try to be here myself. Will Mr. Dulles be here?
Mr. McCLOY. He is out of town.
The CHAIRMAN. If you should not finish, Mr. Jenner, will you phone me at the Court and I will try to suspend my own conference over there and come over.
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Senator COOPER. I will be here anyway all morning and will try to come back this afternoon.
The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much. Mrs. Paine, I want to thank you for coming and for being so patient with our long questioning.
Mrs. PAINE. I am glad to do what I can.
The CHAIRMAN. You know that it is necessary.
Mrs. PAINE. Indeed.
The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much.
Mr. JENNER. You might use the ruler, and I have set the floor plan and the area plan of your home, Mrs. Paine, Exhibit 430, on the blackboard. As you testify, it might be helpful to point to those areas. Now in which direction were you coming?
Mrs. PAINE. I was coming from the east.
Mr. JENNER. From the east?
Mrs. PAINE. Along West Fifth.
Mr. JENNER. You were going west. Your home is on the right-hand side.
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. When did you first sight, where were you when you first saw Lee in your courtyard?
Mrs. PAINE. Just past the corner of Westbrook and Fifth.
Mr. JENNER. That area is open from that point to your home; is it?
Mrs. PAINE. The area of the front yard; yes.
Mr. JENNER. Your home is well set back from the street or sidewalk?
Mrs. PAINE. Moderately set back.
Mr. JENNER. What would you judge that distance to be?
Mrs. PAINE. Two car lengths from the opening of the garage to the sidewalk.
Mr. JENNER. Now where was Lee Oswald when you first saw him?
Mrs. PAINE. He was on the grass just to the east of the driveway.
Mr. JENNER. Near the driveway just to the east, but he was out in front of your home?
Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. What did you do then? You proceeded down the street?
Mrs. PAINE. I parked my car, yes; parked my car in its usual position in the driveway.
Mr. JENNER. In your driveway?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Up close to the garage opening?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And that left you then, you were on the left side or the driving side of your automobile. You got out, did you?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Which way? Did you get out to your left or did you swing across the seat and get out at the right hand door?
Mrs. PAINE. I got out on the driver's side, on the left.
Mr. JENNER. Then what did you do? First tell us what you did. Did you go into your home directly? Did you walk around?
Mrs. PAINE. No. I greeted Lee and Marina, who were both on the front lawn.
Mr. JENNER. Was their daughter June out in front as well?
Mrs. PAINE. Their daughter June was out in front. It was warm. Lee was playing with June.
Mr. JENNER. How was he attired?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall specifically.
Mr. JENNER. You said that he normally wore a T-shirt.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Was he in a T-shirt or shirt?
Mrs. PAINE. I'd be fairly certain he didn't have a jacket on, but that whatever it was was tucked in.
Mr. JENNER. Do you remember the color of his trousers?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Now at that point you were surprised to see him?
Mrs. PAINE. I was.
Mr. JENNER. What did you say to him?
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Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall.
Mr. JENNER. But you do recall greeting him?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You don't recall that you evidenced any surprise that he was there?
Mrs. PAINE. Oh, I think I did.
Mr. JENNER. Had there ever been an occasion prior thereto that he had appeared at your home without prior notice to you and permission from you for him to appear?
Mrs. PAINE. There had been no such occasion. He had always asked permission prior to coming.
Mr. JENNER. And there never had been an exception to that up to this moment?
Mrs. PAINE. No exception.
Mr. JENNER. May we have the time again? You say it was late in the afternoon, but can you fix the time a little more?
Mrs. PAINE. It was getting on toward 5:30.
Mr. JENNER. Did you tarry and talk with Lee and Marina?
Mrs. PAINE. I remember only that Marina and I were still on the grass at the entryway to the house when she spoke of her embarrassment to me in an aside, that is to say, not in Lee's hearing, that she was sorry he hadn't called ahead and asked if that was all right. And I said "Why, that is all right."
Mr. JENNER. Nothing was said by her as to why he had come out?
Mrs. PAINE. Nothing.
Mr. JENNER. And nothing was--
Mrs. PAINE. She was clearly surprised also.
Mr. JENNER. Yes. You made no inquiry of her I take it then of any explanation made by Lee Oswald as to why he had come out unannounced and unexpectedly?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. At least not as of that moment.
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Now when you had your aside with Marina, where was Lee Oswald?
Mrs. PAINE. On the grass near the tree playing with June as closely as I can remember.
Mr. JENNER. How long did you and Marina remain in conversation at that place, position?
Mrs. PAINE. Less than a minute.
Mr. JENNER. Then what did you do?
Mrs. PAINE. I can only reconstruct it.
Mr. JENNER. That is all I am asking you to do.
Mrs. PAINE. I must have gotten groceries from the car.
Mr. JENNER. You mean reconstruct in the sense of rationalizing?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. I wish you would give me first your recollection.
Mrs. PAINE. I am certain of going into the house, and I recall standing just inside the doorway.
Mr. JENNER. Of your home?
Mrs. PAINE. Of my home.
Mr. JENNER. But inside the home?
Mrs. PAINE. But inside now.
Mr. JENNER. Which way were you facing when you were standing inside the doorway?
Mrs. PAINE. I was facing partly toward the door, toward the loud speaker. I was facing this way.
Mr. JENNER. Why were you facing outwardly?
Mrs. PAINE. I believe I turned. I was coming in. I believe I turned to speak to Lee as he came in.
Mr. JENNER. Lee followed you in the house?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And did Marina come in?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall whether she was already in or still out.
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Mr. JENNER. But you do have a recollection that Lee followed you into your home.
Mrs. PAINE. And I recall very clearly the position I was in in the room and the position he was in.
Mr. JENNER. Tell us.
Mrs. PAINE. I was turned part way toward the door. He was coming in, having just entered the door and in front of this loud speaker to which I refer.
Mr. JENNER. What was the loud speaker?
Mrs. PAINE. The loud speaker is part of the Hi-Fi set. It stands--it is a big thing.
Mr. JENNER. Did something occur at that moment?
Mrs. PAINE. And it was at that time that I said to him "Our President is coming to town. "I believe I said it in Russian, our President is coming to town in Russian.
Mr. JENNER. And you gave us his response yesterday but. you might do it again.
Mrs. PAINE. He said "Uh, yeah" and brushed on by me, walked on past.
Mr. JENNER. Did he have an attitude of indifference?
Mrs. PAINE. It was clearly both indifference and not wanting to go on and talk, because he moved away from me on into the kitchen.
Mr. JENNER. He went into your kitchen. What did you do?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall specifically.
Mr. JENNER. We are anxious to follow minute by minute, to the extent possible, all the movements of which you had any knowledge of Lee Oswald on this late afternoon and throughout the evening. Did Lee Oswald remain in your presence right at this time when you entered the house? If so, how long? You had this short conversation. Did he leave your presence then and go to some other part of your home?
Mrs. PAINE. He might have gone to some other part of the home. He didn't leave the house to my recollection.
Mr. JENNER. I didn't mean to imply that, only whether he remained in the general area in which you were in your home?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall.
Mr. JENNER. Did he pass from your sight?
Mrs. PAINE. Probably.
Mr. JENNER. Before you guess about it, give us your best recollection.
Senator COOPER. Tell what you remember.
Mr. McCLOY. Yes; just in your own words tell us what your best recollection of this afternoon was without second to second sequence.
Mrs. PAINE. Clearly just having come from the grocery store I put the bags down in the kitchen and unpacked them, put them away, started supper.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have any sense that Lee Oswald was in and about the inside of the house while you were doing this?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have a recollection that he did not go out into the yard during this period?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall. If he did, it would have been the back. It would have been unusual for him to go in the front yard.
Mr. JENNER. Now you were preparing your dinner in your kitchen, were you not?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And does the entrance to your garage is there an entrance to your garage opening from your kitchen into the garage?
Mrs. PAINE. There is an entrance to the garage from the kitchen; yes.
Mr. JENNER. And one of the exhibits we qualified this morning is a picture of that area of your home, is it not?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Your answer was yes?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. At anytime while you were preparing dinner was Lee Oswald in the garage?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
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Mr. JENNER. And you were aware of that fact, were you?
Mrs. PAINE. That is my best recollection that he was not in the garage while I was preparing dinner.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know where he was while you were preparing dinner?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall specifically.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have occasion to look into your garage area at anytime during the period you were preparing dinner?
Mrs. PAINE. Not that I recall.
Mr. JENNER. Where was Marina during the period you were preparing dinner?
Mrs. PAINE. I'd have to guess.
Senator COOPER. Just tell what you know.
Mr. JENNER. Tell what you know first.
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall specifically.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have a recollection with respect to whether she was inside the house or outside the house?
Mrs. PAINE. I recall that she was inside the house.
Mr. JENNER. And where was the child June with respect to whether she was inside or outside the house?
Mrs. PAINE. She was inside.
Mr. JENNER. Having located Marina and the Oswald daughter inside your home, does that refresh your recollection as to whether Lee was also inside the house?
Mrs. PAINE. As far as I remember, he was also inside the house.
Mr. JENNER. Was he playing with his daughter?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall.
Mr. JENNER. How long did it take you to prepare dinner?
Mrs. PAINE. Probably half an hour.
Mr. JENNER. I am unaware of the shades of evening and night in Texas. By the time you had completed dinner had night fallen or was it still light?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall.
Mr. JENNER. What time does nightfall come in Texas in November, late November?
Mrs. PAINE. I would say between 7 and 7:30.
Mr. JENNER. I shouldn't have been as broad as I was. I meant to locate it in Irving, Tex, rather than Texas generally. About 7:30?
Mrs. PAINE. Between 7 and 7:30. I don't know exactly.
Mr. JENNER. When did you sit down for dinner?
Mrs. PAINE. I suppose around 6:30.
Mr. JENNER. Is that your best recollection?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall specifically.
Mr. JENNER. Was it still light outside, natural light?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did Lee Oswald join you for dinner?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; he did.
Mrs. PAINE. And how long did dinner take?
Mrs. PAINE. Perhaps half an hour.
Mr. JENNER. Did he remain in your presence during all of the dinner period?
Mrs. PAINE. Either there or in the living room.
Mr. JENNER. At anytime during the dinner period, did Lee Oswald leave your home?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. You have a firm recollection of that?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did Marina?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. At anytime during that period did Lee Oswald enter the garage area?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Did Marina?
Mrs. PAINE. Not to my recollection.
Mr. JENNER. Did you?
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Mrs. PAINE. The deepfreeze is in the garage. I don't recall having gone, but I go all the time for goods for the baby, for my little boy.
Mr. JENNER. And did you use anything from the deepfreeze normally, in connection with the preparation of an evening meal?
Mrs. PAINE. I could have gone out then too.
Mr. JENNER. Though you don't recall it specifically, it is possible that you went into the garage.
Mrs. PAINE. It is possible.
Mr. JENNER. Garage area.
Senator COOPER. But you don't remember?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't remember. This is something I do as habit.
Mr. JENNER. It is so much habit that you don't single it out?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. In any event, if you entered the garage, it was pursuant to a normal practice of preparing dinner and not because you were seeking to look for something out of the ordinary?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Or that your attention was arrested by something out of the ordinary?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. After the dinner hour or half hour, whatever it took, what did you do? Let's take say the 1-hour period following your dinner?
Mrs. PAINE. I was busy putting my children to bed.
Mr. JENNER. Where were you located during that period of time?
Mrs. PAINE. I normally read them a story in the bedroom which is the back bedroom on the north side.
Senator COOPER. Did you do it that evening?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Senator COOPER. Not normally but do you remember that you did it?
Mrs. PAINE. I am certain I read them a story.
Senator COOPER. What?
Mrs. PAINE. I am certain I read them a story. Whether they also had a bath that night I can't remember.
Mr. JENNER. Now being in your children's bedroom, which I take it was also your bedroom--
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. That would be the rear portion of your home at the corner?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. When you were in that room, what can you see with respect to other portions of your home?
Mrs. PAINE. The view from the bedroom door.
Mr. JENNER. Looking into what?
Mrs. PAINE. Looking west looks into the kitchen-dining area right past the doorway entrance to the garage.
Mr. JENNER. Can you see into the living room area of your home?
Mrs. PAINE. From that doorway you can; yes.
Mr. JENNER. If you stand in the doorway, I take it you can do so.
Mrs. PAINE. But sitting on the bed reading a story; no.
Mr. JENNER. But if you stood in the middle of the room and looked out that doorway from your bedroom, you would look into the kitchen area, not into the living room area?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. How long did you remain in your bedroom putting your children to bed?
Mrs. PAINE. That process can take as much as an hour and often does.
Mr. JENNER. Give us your very best recollection of how long it took this evening?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall specifically how long.
Mr. JENNER. Is it your recollection that you pursued your normal course in getting them to bed. You read a story, I take it, did you?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
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Mr. JENNER. And you undressed the children and placed them in the crib or bed and you say that normally takes approximately an hour?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you remained in the bedroom during all of that 1 hour period?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, I wouldn't be certain of that no. I also prepare a bottle which involves going to the kitchen, and heating milk. I also chase my children. They don't always just stay in the bedroom.
Mr. JENNER. Did you see Lee Harvey Oswald either in or about your home from time to time during this hour period that you were preparing your children for sleep that evening?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall specifically except that I was aware he was in the home.
Senator COOPER. How would you be aware he was in the home?
Mrs. PAINE. I would have noticed it if he had gone out the door it seems to me, out the front door. One can easily hear, and that would be an unusual thing.
Mr. JENNER. Why would it be unusual?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, he never did go out the front door in the evening.
Mr. JENNER. Once he entered your home his normal practice was to stay inside?
Mrs. PAINE. Was to turn on the television set and sit.
Mr. JENNER. Did he turn on the television set?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't believe he watched television that evening.
Mr. JENNER. Could you tell us of any awareness on your part of his presence in the home, that is you were definitely conscious that he remained inside the house?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And was not out in the yard?
Senator. COOPER. How would you know that?
Mrs. PAINE. It is a small house. You can hear if the front door or the back door opens. But I can't be absolutely certain.
Senator COOPER. Is what you are saying that you don't remember, or rather that you don't remember that the front door or the back door did open?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right. I am also saying there is very little about that evening that stood out as unusual. I have tried to say what I could think of that did stand out as unusual. I think the rest melds together with other
evenings which were similar.
Senator COOPER. I don't want to interrupt you but I think she has got to tell what she remembers that evening.
Mr. McCLOY. Yes. I think without the meticulous minute by minute, just say what it is.
Senator COOPER. If you don't remember, you don't remember.
Mrs. PAINE. I am sorry.
Mr. McCLOY. You can't break it down into sequence that far back?
Senator COOPER. Just tell what you remember.
Mr. JENNER. Go ahead and tell us, Mrs. Paine, the course of events that evening, with particular reference to what we are interested in, what Lee Oswald did and where he was during the course of that evening.
Mrs. PAINE. I have already said that after I had my children in bed, I went to the garage to work.
Mr. JENNER. Was it now nighttime?
Mrs. PAINE. It was now dark, I recall about 9 o'clock, I noticed that the light was on.
Mr. JENNER. Was the door to the garage open?
Mrs. PAINE. No; it was closed.
Mr. JENNER. It was closed. And you noticed the light on when you opened the door.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Had the light been on at anytime to your knowledge prior to that?
Mrs. PAINE. Not that evening; no.
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Mr. JENNER. When entering and leaving the garage during the course of your preparing dinner, to your recollection, was there any light on at that time?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. You didn't turn the light on at anytime up to this moment of which you speak?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Senator COOPER. Had you been in the garage that evening before the time that you found the light on?
Mrs. PAINE. If I had only in this course of habit which also included if it was dark, flipping the switch on and flipping it on.
Senator COOPER. You don't remember if you did that or not before.
Mrs. PAINE. Specifically, no.
Mr. McCLOY. She said she might have been.
Mr. JENNER. Is that a hand switch?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You must trip it. Where is the switch located, in the kitchen or in the garage.
Mrs. PAINE. The switch is in the garage.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, the witness has before her Commission Exhibit 435, which is a picture of her home, looking through the door leading to the garage from the kitchen. Is the light switch shown in that picture?
Mrs. PAINE. No; it is not.
Mr. JENNER. And why is it not shown?
Mrs. PAINE. The light switch that turns on the light in the garage is on the interior of the garage approximately through the wall from the switch you see in the picture, which lights the kitchen, or the dining area overhead light.
Mr. JENNER. And the switch that is shown in the picture, is it to the right of the doorjamb?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. And rather high?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Placed high, and on the picture it is shown as having, oh, is that a white plastic plate?
Mrs. PAINE. It is exactly.
Mr. JENNER. And the switch that lights the garage light is directly opposite on the other side of the wall inside the garage?
Mrs. PAINE. That is my recollection; yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now directing your attention to Commission Exhibit 429, that is a picture, is it not, of the garage interior of your home taken from the outlet door of the garage and looking back toward the kitchen?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Is that correct? And does that show the doorway from the garage into your kitchen?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. In other words, the opposite side of the wall, which is shown in Commission Exhibit 435?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And are you able to locate the light switch on Commission Exhibit 429 which is the garage interior exhibit? That is, can you see the switch?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I am not certain I can. This is something else.
Mr. JENNER. I point out to you the configuration which is halfway down the garage doorjamb outline.
Mrs. PAINE. Right next to the top surface of the deepfreeze.
Mr. JENNER. Yes. Is that the light switch?
Mrs. PAINE. I thought it was higher.
Senator COOPER. You know there is a light switch there, don't you?
There is a light switch there.
Mrs. PAINE. I know I don't pull the string which is there clearly in the picture.
Mr. JENNER. You step down into the garage do you, or is it at the kitchen floor level?
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Mrs. PAINE. Are you still asking?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. PAINE. No; you don't step down, perhaps 3 inches all together.
Mr. JENNER. The floor of the garage and the floor of the kitchen are at a level?
Mrs. PAINE. Approximately at a level.
Mr. JENNER. Why did you enter the garage on that occasion?
Mrs. PAINE. I was about to lacquer some children's large blocks, playing blocks.
Mr. JENNER. These are blocks that you had cut at some other time?
Mrs. PAINE. I had cut them on the saw in the garage; yes; previously.
Mr. JENNER. Proceed.
Representative FORD. Mr. Jenner, may I ask a question there?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Representative FORD. Some people have a habit of turning lights on and off again regularly. Others are a little careless about it. Would you describe your attitude in this regard?
Mrs. PAINE. I am definitely a person with the habit of turning them off.
Representative FORD. This is a trait that you have?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Representative FORD. Now, if you were to go out from the kitchen to the garage,
is it easy for you as you go out the door to turn the light on?
Mrs. PAINE. And off; yes.
Representative FORD. It is very simple for you to do so?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Representative FORD Both going out and coming in?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Representative FORD. And as you go out on your right or left?
Mrs. PAINE. It is on my left as I go out of the garage.
Representative FORD. And as you come in from the garage to the kitchen it is on your right.
Mrs. PAINE. As you come into the garage from the kitchen--
Mr. McCLOY. When you are going out to the garage, on which side is it?
Mrs. PAINE. It is on my right.
Mr. McCLOY. On your right. Coming out from the garage to the kitchen it is on your left?
Mrs. PAINE. That is what he said.
Mr. McCLOY. You said it just the opposite, I think.
Representative FORD. I thought I asked the question and she responded in the. reverse.
Mr. McCLOY. Maybe.
Representative FORD. And it surprised me a little bit. The record may show two different responses there.
Mr. JENNER. Could we recover that now?
Mrs. PAINE. The switch is on the west doorjamb of that door between the two rooms.
Mr. JENNER. Perhaps that may help, Mrs. Paine. When you are in the kitchen about to enter the garage, the doorway from the kitchen to the garage, and you are going to enter from the kitchen into the garage, where is the switch with respect to whether it is on you. r right side or your left side?
Mrs. PAINE. Just coming into the garage it is on my right side.
Mr. JENNER. That is leaving your kitchen entering the garage it is on your right side. Now when you are in the garage. and you are about to enter the kitchen, the switch then is on your left? Is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Representative FORD. That clarifies it. May I now ask in your observations of either Marina or Lee, were they the type that were conscious of turning light switches on or off? Was this an automatic reaction? Were they careless about it? What was their trait if you have any observation?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall any other time that the garage. light had been left on, and I would say certainly I saw enough of Marina to be able to state what I thought would be a trait, and she would normally turn off a light when she was done, in the room.
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Representative. FORD. She had the normal reaction of turning a light off if she left a room?
Mrs. PAINE. Her own room. Now you see most of the rooms--if she was the last one in the room she would turn it off; yes; going to bed or something like that she certainly would turn it off.
Mr. JENNER. Of course. if she was going to bed she would turn the light off. But when she was leaving the room, was it her tendency to turn off the light?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, the garage light is the only room in my house you leave not to come back to right away. The whole house is active all the time until bedtime. It is hard to answer.
Mr. JENNER. So the lights are on?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Representative FORD. Would you make any observation about Lee's tendencies or traits in this regard?
Mrs. PAINE. I can't say I have observation as to his tendencies.
Mr. JENNER. It was your habit, however, as far as you are concerned with respect to the light in the garage to turn it off when you left the garage?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. What were your habits with respect to closing the main garage door, that is the door opening onto the street?
Mrs. PAINE. That was always closed except to open just to take out the trash can.
Mr. JENNER. And though it is shown in one of the photographs as open.
Mrs. PAINE. That was done for the purpose of the photograph by the FBI.
Mr. JENNER. So that normally your garage door is down?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Was it down when you arrived?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it was.
Mr. JENNER. At your home when you were surprised to see Lee Oswald?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it certainly was.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have recollection whether anytime that evening of hearing the garage door being raised or seeing the garage door up?
Mrs. PAINE. I have no such recollection.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have a recollection that it was down at all times?
Mrs. PAINE. I wasn't in the garage.
Mr. JENNER. Well, you entered the garage did you not that evening?
Mrs. PAINE. Except then; yes, at 9 or so. It was certainly down.
Mr. JENNER. It was down then?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You say your home is small and you can hear even the front door opening. Does the raising of the garage door cause some clatter?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it does.
Mr. JENNER. And had the garage door been raised, even though you were giving attention to your children, would you have heard it?
Mrs. PAINE. If it was raised slow and carefully; no, I would not have heard it.
Mr. JENNER. But if it were raised normally?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You would have heard it. And it is your recollection that at no time that evening were you conscious of that garage door having been raised.
Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. You had reached the point at which you said you entered the garage to, did you say, lacquer some blocks which you had prepared?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. What did you notice in the garage when you entered it to lacquer those blocks?
Mrs. PAINE. The garage was as I always found it, and I went and got the lacquer from the workbench on the west side of the garage and painted the blocks on top of the deepfreeze. My motions were in the interior portion.
Mr. JENNER. That is in the area of the garage near the kitchen entrance?
Mrs. PAINE. Right.
Mr. JENNER. How long were you in the garage on that occasion?
Mrs. PAINE. About a half an hour.
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Mr. JENNER. Did you leave the garage light on while you worked in the garage?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You are definitely conscious, however, of the fact that when you entered the garage the light was on?
Mrs. PAINE. I am certain of that. I thought it quite sloppy to have left it on.
Mr. JENNER. Did you make any inquiry of Marina or of Lee Oswald as to the light having been left on?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. No comment at all?
Mrs. PAINE. It is my recollection that by the time I was ready to go to the garage to work, say 9 o'clock, Lee had already retired.
Mr. JENNER. Now we would like to know, tell us how you were definitely conscious that he had retired by that time?
Mrs. PAINE. He was in the bedroom. Traffic between the bedroom where he was and the bathroom crosses in front of the doorway, the front of the room where I was.
Senator COOPER. Did you see him in the bedroom?
Mrs. PAINE. In the bedroom?
Senator COOPER. Yes.
Mrs. PAINE. No; but I'd be----
Senator COOPER. What?
Mrs. PAINE. No; but I'd be fairly certain I saw him go to it.
Senator COOPER. You saw him go to it?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You saw him passing back and forth from the bedroom to the bathroom and he had his ablutions and then returned to the bedroom to retire, is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE. That is my best recollection.
Mr. JENNER. That is your definite consciousness?
Mrs. PAINE. All of this was so common that I made no specific note of it.
Senator COOPER. I think you have got to tell what you remember that night. If you can't remember it, you can't remember it.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. But you do remember him passing back and forth from the bedroom that he and Marina normally occupied when he was there, and she occupied when she was there, to the bathroom, and then back to the bedroom. You do have that recollection?
Mrs. PAINE. I recall specifically the feeling that he was in the room, and this grounded no doubt in his having been back and forth as you have described.
Mr. JENNER. You remained in the garage about a half hour lacquering your children's blocks.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You left the garage then, did you?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did.
Mr. JENNER. And where did you go when you left the garage?
Mrs. PAINE. To the kitchen or living room.
Mr. JENNER. Did you see anybody when you entered the kitchen or living room?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; Marina was still up.
Mr. JENNER. Did you see Lee Oswald?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Did you see Lee Oswald anytime from that moment forward until you retired for the evening?
Mrs. PAINE. I saw Lee Oswald at no time from that moment forward.
Mr. JENNER. The answer to my question is no?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Did you speak with him or he with you at anytime from that moment forward until you retired?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Were you conscious that he spoke to Marina at anytime from that moment forward until you retired that evening?
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Mrs. PAINE. I was not conscious that he spoke to Marina; no.
Mr. JENNER. Or she with him?
Mrs. PAINE. Or she with him.
Mr. JENNER. What time that evening did you retire?
Mrs. PAINE. I would guess around 11 or 11:30.
Mr. JENNER. Did Marina remain up and retire at anytime or had she retired earlier?
Mrs. PAINE. It seems to me we remained up and retired at about the same time, having folded laundry on the sofa before we retired, and talked.
Mr. JENNER. Were you looking at the television while you were doing the folding?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall. I don't think so.
Mr. JENNER. Now let us return to the garage for a moment. When you were in the garage for the half hour, did you notice the blanket wrapped package you testified about yesterday?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't specifically recall seeing it; no.
Mr. JENNER. You first weren't conscious of it?
Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. You didn't stumble over it.
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. It wasn't drawn to your attention in any fashion. Is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Now, as you and Marina sat that evening, folding the ironing, what did you discuss?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall specifically.
Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion that might serve to refresh your recollection, any discussion of the fact that Lee Oswald had come home or come to Irving in the first place on a Thursday afternoon, which is unusual, or that he had come home unannounced and without invitation, which also as you have testified was unusual? Wasn't there any discussion between you and Marina, speculation at least on your part as to why he was home?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, there was discussion. I can't recall exactly what time in the evening it took place but I recall the content of the discussion.
Mr. JENNER. You tell us about it.
Mrs. PAINE. She suggested that he was making up the quarrel that they had had because of her attempt to reach him by telephone, and I agreed, concurred with that judgment of it.
Mr. JENNER. What was the attitude that evening?
Mrs. PAINE. He was very warm and friendly.
Mr. JENNER. Was there anything unusual about his attitude and conduct that evening?
Mrs. PAINE. Nothing except he went to bed a little earlier than he normally would have on a Sunday evening before work.
Mr. JENNER. Were you conscious of the fact that he was retiring a little earlier than he normally would?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And did you speculate in your mind as to why that might be?
Mrs. PAINE. No. I knew that he would go to bed as early as 10 o'clock say on the Sunday evening before going to work the next day. This was just, still early.
Mr. JENNER. What was Marina's attitude toward him that evening? Was she reserved because of this quarrel?
Mrs. PAINE. No. I think she felt the best thing was to pass it by and not discuss it.
Mr. JENNER. That was your impression of her?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Of her conduct.
Senator COOPER. That is just your idea about it, isn't it?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, and that I saw her do exactly, that too.
Mr. JENNER. Do exactly what?
Mrs. PAINE. She didn't ask him why he had come.
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Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. You were present when Marina put a question to---
Mrs. PAINE. She did not ask him.
Mr. JENNER. Oh, she did not.
Mr. McCLOY. She did not.
Mr. JENNER. Oh, I am sorry.
Mrs. PAINE. Certainly not in my presence.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have any impression as to how long he had been at your home prior to your driving down the street and first seeing him?
Mrs. PAINE. He usually arrived from his ride with Wesley Frazier somewhere around a quarter of 5, so I guess it was a few minutes to 10 minutes.
Mr. JENNER. You arrived at your home in the neighborhood of 5:25 or 5:30.
So it is your impression that he had been at your home from 10 to 15 minutes?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I say from a few minutes to 10 minutes.
Mr. JENNER. A few minutes to 10 minutes. Did Marina say anything that evening of his having a package with him when he came to your home?
Mrs. PAINE. No; she didn't.
Mr. JENNER. No discussion of that nature occurred?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. I am going to put a general question to you. Do you have any recollection at all of Lee Oswald actually being in the garage of your home that evening?
Mrs. PAINE. I have said that I had the feeling from traffic that had preceded it that he was in the bedroom when I saw he was no longer in the rest of the house. When I saw the light was on, my distinct thought was that he had left it on. I think that was founded upon an awareness of what Marina had been doing and I suppose what he was doing.
Mr. JENNER. You say doing. You mean an awareness--
Mrs. PAINE. In other words, it was common for both Marina and Lee to go to the garage, but when I saw the light was on I was certain it was Lee that had left it on.
Mr. JENNER. Rather than Marina?
Mrs. PAINE. Rather than Marina.
Mr. JENNER. Because of her habit of turning off lights?
Mrs. PAINE. Not only that. I feel that I--memory of what she had been doing during the time that I was also putting the children to bed. She was involved with the children.
Mr. JENNER. May we possibly do this. Did you see Marina in the garage at anytime?
Mrs. PAINE. That evening?
Mr. JENNER. That evening.
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. You did not see Lee Oswald in the garage at anytime that evening?
Mrs. PAINE. Did not see him in the garage; no.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, I intend at this moment to proceed to the next day. I wondered if members of the Commission have any further questions of Mrs. Paine with respect to the afternoon or evening of November 21?
Mr. McCLOY. I don't have any. I think she has covered it all. I would remind you that we have got to be leaving, Mr. Ford and I, and Senator Cooper around noon. We would like to make as much progress as we can before we go.
Mr. JENNER. That is fine. I will have completed this phase.
Senator COOPER. If you can get through the events of the 22d.
Mr. JENNER. You retired along about 11:30?
Mrs. PAINE. That is my recollection.
Mr. JENNER. The evening of the 21st. Did you sleep through the night?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. I woke at 7:30.
Mr. JENNER. The children did not awaken you at anytime during the night and nothing else awakened you?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall that anything woke me; no.
Mr. JENNER. Is your recollection sufficient that you were not awakened during the night, that is your definite impression at the moment?
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Mrs. PAINE. I get up often in the night to change a diaper or cover a child, but this is a matter of habit and I don't recall whether this night contained such a getting up or not.
Mr. JENNER. You sleep with your children, do you not?
Mrs. PAINE. We are in the same bedroom.
Mr. JENNER. You awakened when in the morning?
Mrs. PAINE. At 7:30.
Mr. JENNER. And when you awakened, immediately after you awakened what did you do?
Mrs. PAINE. When I awoke I felt the house was extremely quiet and the thought occurred to me that Lee might have overslept. I wondered if he had gotten up in time to get off around 7 o'clock because I knew he had to go to meet Wesley Frazier to catch his ride. I looked about and found a plastic coffee cup in the sink that had clearly been used and judged he had had a cup of coffee and left.
Mr. JENNER. Did you see any other evidence of his having had breakfast?
Mrs. PAINE. That was all he normally had for breakfast.
Mr. JENNER. A plastic coffee cup with some remains in it of coffee?
Mrs. PAINE. Instant coffee; yes.
Mr. JENNER. What was his habit with respect to his breakfast when he made his visits?
Mrs. PAINE. It was very normal for him to take coffee.
Mr. JENNER. Was Marina up and about when you arose at 7:30?
Mrs. PAINE. No; she was not.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have a recollection of the garage area? Was the door to the garage, the entrance to the garage from the kitchen, closed or open?
Mrs. PAINE. It was closed. Would it help if I tried to narrate what happened?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. McCLOY. Go ahead and narrate.
Mrs. PAINE. I fixed breakfast for myself and my children, turned on the television set to hear President Kennedy speak in Fort Worth, and had breakfast there. I left the house about 9 with my little girl and boy, because she had a dentist appointment, the little girl. I left the television set on, feeling that Marina might not think to turn it on, but I knew that she would be interested to see President Kennedy.
I then was gone until nearly noon, 11:30 or so, both to the dentist and on some errands following that, came back and there was coverage of the fact of the motorcade in Dallas, but there was no television cameras showing it, as you know, and. Marina thanked me for having left the television set on. She said she woke up in kind of a bad mood, but she had seen the arrival of President Kennedy and Mrs. Kennedy at the airport in Dallas, and had been thrilled with this occasion and with the greeting he had received, and it had lifted her spirits.
Very shortly after this time, I had only just begun to prepare the lunch, the announcement was made that the President had been shot, and I translated this to Marina. She had not caught it from the television statement. And I was crying as I did the translation. And then we sat down and waited at the television set, no longer interested in the preparing of lunch, and waited to hear further word.
I got out some candles and lit them, and my little girl also lighted a candle, and Marina said to me, "Is that a way of praying?", and I said "Yes, it is, just my own way." And it was well over an hour before we heard definitely that the President was dead.
Mr. JENNER. How did that come to your attention?
Mrs. PAINE. It was announced on the television. I think it was even still in the intervening time. It was announced on the television that the shot which was supposed to have killed the President was fired from the Texas School Book Depository Building on Elm.
Mr. JENNER. Did you communicate that to her?
Mrs. PAINE. Marina at this time was in the yard hanging some clothes. I recall going out to her and telling her this.
Mr. JENNER. What did she say?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't believe she said anything. I then also--
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Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. You say "I don't believe she said anything." Is it your recollection?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall anything at all that she said.
Mr. JENNER. Would you--
Mr. McCLOY. You told her that you had heard over the television?
Mrs. PAINE. I heard that the shot had been made--
Mr. McCLOY. Coming from the Texas School Book Depository?
Mrs. PAINE. Schoolbook depository, and I believe I also said I didn't know there was a building on Elm.
Senator COOPER. Why did you go out to tell her, this fact?
Mrs. PAINE. I felt this was terribly close, somebody working in that building had been there. I thought Lee might be able to say somewhat about what happened, had been close to the event. This was my thought, that we would know somebody who would be able to give or possibly give a first-hand.
Senator COOPER. Did you have any thought at all that Lee Oswald might have been the man who fired the shot?
Mrs. PAINE. Absolutely none; no.
Mr. JENNER. Why was that, Mrs. Paine?
Mrs. PAINE. I had never thought of him as a violent man. He had never said anything against President Kennedy, nor anything about President Kennedy. I had no idea that he had a gun. There was nothing that I had seen about him that indicated a man with that kind of grudge or hostility.
Mr. McCLOY. But you told this to Marina because of the association of Lee Oswald with the schoolbook depository?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. I then proceeded to hang some clothes.
Mr. JENNER. She did not comment?
Mrs. PAINE. She did not comment.
Mr. JENNER. Made no comment?
Mrs. PAINE. That is my recollection, that she made no comment. I then helped hang the clothes. My recollection skips then to being again in front of the television listening, and it was then that we heard that the President was. dead. We were beth sitting on the sofa.
Mr. JENNER. Marina had come in from the yard?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. From the hanging of the clothes?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall whether we came in together or whether she preceded me into the house while I finished hanging up the clothes. But 1 do recall then next sitting on the sofa when the announcement was definitely made that the President was dead. And she said to me "What a terrible thing this was for Mrs. Kennedy and for the two children." I remember her words were, "Now the two children will have to grow up without the father." It was very shortly after this we were still sitting on the sofa.
Mr. McCLOY. Just take a little time and compose yourself.
Mrs. PAINE. My neighbor, Mrs. Roberts, came in, really I think to see if we had heard, and--
Senator COOPER. Why don't you rest a few minutes?
Mrs. PAINE. I can proceed. I recall my feeling of anger with her for not being more upset, or she didn't appear to me to be, any more than reporting a remarkable news item. Then it was shortly after that that the bell rang and I went to the door and met some six officers from the sheriff's office and police station.
Mr. JENNER. Was this approximately 3:30 p.m.?
Mrs. PAINE. Oh, I think it was earlier, but I wouldn't be certain. I know that we had put our children to bed. They were all taking a nap, though I am not certain. Yes, my little girl was asleep also. I cried after I had heard that the President was dead, and my little girl was upset, too, always taking it from me more than from any understanding of the situation. And she cried herself to sleep on the sofa, and I moved her to her bed, and Christopher was already asleep in his crib. June was in bed asleep.
Mr. JENNER. Was Marina emotional at all? Did she cry?
Mrs. PAINE. No. She said to me, "I feel very badly also, but we seem to show that we are upset in different ways." She did not actually cry.
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Mr. McCLOY. May I go back a moment there, if I may. You said you were Sitting on the sofa--that she and you were sitting on the sofa. While you were listening or looking at the television, was there any announcement over the television of a suspicion being cast at Lee?
Mrs. PAINE. It had just been announced that they had caught someone in a theatre, but there was no name given.
Mr. McCLOY. So up to this point there was no suggestion that Lee was involved?
Mrs. PAINE. No; not until the time the officers came to the door.
Mr. McCLOY. Not until the officers came?
Mrs. PAINE. Do you want to ask me about that?
Mr. JENNER. Yes. Now, the officers came to the door--
Mr. McCLOY. Pardon me. Were you asking a question?
Mr. JENNER. I was waiting for you.
Mr. McCLOY. Senator Cooper reminded me that there were comments, apparently to the effect that somebody from that building had fired the shots.
Did you hear that when you were sitting on the sofa with Marina? Did you hear that comment on the television?
Mrs. PAINE. No; that was earlier.
Mr. McCLOY. That was even earlier?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; before it was announced that he was dead.
Senator COOPER. But when you were all sitting there--
Mrs. PAINE. It was at that point that I went out to the yard to tell her.
Senator COOPER. To tell her?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Senator COOPER. After that when you went back in and you all were sitting on the sofa and she was there, were there any other comments over the television that someone from this building had fired the shot or that any suspects from--
Mrs. PAINE. You mean, someone associated with the building?
Senator COOPER. Yes.
Mrs. PAINE. No; that was not said.
Senator COOPER. There was nothing else said about that?
Mrs. PAINE. No; just that the shot came from the building.
Mr. McCLOY. Nothing else that you heard?
Mrs. PAINE. Nothing else about it.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, you do have a definite recollection that you communicated to Marina out in the yard that the shot had come from the Texas School Book Depository?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And what did she do when you communicated that to her, apart from what she said? You told us what she said. What did she do? Did she come in the house?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall.
Mr. JENNER. Did she enter the garage?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't know. I never saw her enter the garage, but my recollection is that I was outside hanging clothes after I told her this, but what I can't recall is whether she remained with me hanging the clothes or whether she went in the house.
Mr. JENNER. She might have gone into the house?
Mrs. PAINE. She might have gone into the house.
Mr. JENNER. But, in any event, you do not recall her entering the garage following your advising her of the announcement that the shot had come, or was thought to have come from the Texas School Book Depository?
Mrs. PAINE. I do not recall.
Senator COOPER. When you went out to tell her, was she hanging clothes?
Mrs. PAINE. She was hanging clothes.
Senator COOPER. Then did you go help her, and then both of you were hanging clothes?
Mrs. PAINE. I then helped her. What I can't remember is whether she remained and finished the job with me. I remember I finished, remained until they were all hung.
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Senator COOPER. Do you remember at anytime after that whether or not you were hanging clothes alone?
Mrs. PAINE. That is what I am not certain about. I could well have been.
Mr. JENNER. At anytime that afternoon, in any event, up to the time that the policeman rang your doorbell, did you observe or were you aware that Marina had entered the garage?
Mrs. PAINE. I wasn't aware that she had entered, if she did.
Mr. JENNER. I take it from your testimony it is possible that Marina, after you advised her that the shot was thought to have come from this Texas School Book Depository, that she might have been inside your home while you were still out in the yard?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. And, of course, if that is so, then she could have entered the garage while she was inside your home, and you were out in the yard hanging clothes?
Mrs. PAINE. And I would not have seen her; that is right.
Mr. JENNER. Now, this clothes-hanging occurred in the rear, the yard portion in the rear of your home; is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Is it possible is there a window in the garage opening on the rear of your home on to that yard area, or is the wall blank?
Mrs. PAINE. The window one can look into from the area where one hangs clothes goes to the dining area. From where I stood, I could not have seen the door entering the garage, which would be just beyond--
Mrs JENNER. You are talking about the inside door?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. First I would like to know this
Mrs. PAINE. The answer to your question is clear if you see the plan of the interior of the house. No part of the garage shows, no wall or window or any part of the garage shows from the back--
Mr. JENNER. There is no opening from the rear of the garage, is there?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. So you can't see into the garage, at least from--
Mrs. PAINE. From the back of my house you can't; no.
Mr. JENNER. There are windows opening from your kitchen into the back part, into the yard, are there not?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And being in the yard, could you see when somebody passed across that window, let us say, headed for the garage area?
Mrs. PAINE. No. Heading for the garage area, you would not pass across that window.
Mr. JENNER. You would not. In any event, you had no consciousness at any-time that day or afternoon of Marina having entered the garage up to the time the police came?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Is that true of the time in the morning that you have been describing?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. At anytime from 7:30 in the morning, from the time you awakened until the time the police came, you have no consciousness that Marina was in the garage?
Mrs. PAINE. No consciousness of that.
Mr. JENNER. Did you enter the garage during this period of time?
Mrs. PAINE. I have no specific recollection of having done so.
Mr. JENNER. And you have given us Marina's total exclamation or response to your advising her that the shot had come from the Texas School Book Depository?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. You have recounted that your next-door neighbor, Mrs. Robert--or is it Roberts?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Came over. Was Marina present----
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Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. When she arrived at your home? Were you girls in the living room?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you sit down and talk?
Mrs. PAINE. No. She just came to the door to see if we had heard the news.
Mr. JENNER. She was there just a bit of the time?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. She did not come, actually, into the house.
Mr. JENNER. She did not. She stood in the doorway?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And did she speak to you and to Marina?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, she spoke in English, and I doubt she said much more than, "Have you heard?"
Mr. JENNER. Did Marina say anything to you for translation of Mrs. Reynolds?
Mrs. PAINE. No. Roberts.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Roberts; while Mrs. Roberts was there?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Learning that you girls were aware of the events up to that moment, she left and, as far as you know, returned to her home?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, that morning--if I may, Mr. Chairman, because of the entry of the police, that is a good cutoff point, I would like to go back to the morning for the moment, or the evening before. Mrs. Paine, did you then have what might be called some curtain rods in your garage?
Mrs. PAINE. I believe there were.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have a recollection?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; they were stored in the garage, wrapped in loose brown paper.
Mr. JENNER. Is it the brown paper of the nature and character you described yesterday that you get at the market and have in a roll?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Had you wrapped that package yourself?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, curtain rods can be of various types. One type of curtain rod, as I remember, is a solid brass rod. Others are hollow. Some are shaped. Would you describe these curtain rods, please?
Mrs. PAINE. They were a light weight.
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me; do you still have them?
Mrs. PAINE. I still have them.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mrs. PAINE. Metal rods that you slip the curtain over, not with a ring but just with the cloth itself, and they are expansion rods.
Mr. JENNER. Are they flat on one side?
Mrs. PAINE. They are flat on one side; about an inch wide and about a quarter of an inch thick.
Mr. JENNER. And assume we are holding the rod horizontally, do the edges of the rod slip over?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Senator COOPER. Did you wrap these rods in the paper? Had you wrapped them?
Mrs. PAINE. Sometime previously I had.
Senator COOPER. How long before?
Mrs. PAINE. Oh, possibly a year.
Senator COOPER. What?
Mrs. PAINE. Possibly a year.
Senator COOPER. As far as you know, they had never been changed?
Mrs. PAINE. Moved about, but not changed.
Senator COOPER. Can you just describe the length?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Senator COOPER. The length of the reds, at the time you wrapped them.
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Mrs. PAINE. They would be 36 inches when pushed together.
Senator COOPER. What?
Mrs. PAINE. They would be about maybe 36 inches when pushed together.
Senator COOPER. You remember wrapping them. Do you remember what the size, the length of the reds were at the time you wrapped them?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Senator COOPER. How long?
Mrs. PAINE. Didn't I answer about 36 inches?
Mr. JENNER. In other words, you pushed them together so that then, they were then their minimum length, unexpanded?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. They were not extended, and in that condition they were 36 inches long?
Mrs. PAINE. Something like that.
Mr. JENNER. Now, how many of them were there?
Mrs. PAINE. Two.
Mr. JENNER. These were lightweight metal?
Mrs. PAINE. Very. Now, there was another item that was both heavier and longer.
Mr. JENNER. In that same package?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I don't think so. In another similar package wrapped up just to keep the dust off were two venetian blinds. I guess they were not longer, more like 36 inches also, that had come from the two windows in my bedroom. I took them down to change, and put up pull blinds in their place.
Mr. JENNER. And had you wrapped them?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. How many were there?
Mrs. PAINE. Two.
Mr. JENNER. And what was their length?
Mrs. PAINE. I think around 36 inches. The width of these windows in the back bedroom.
Mr. JENNER. Let us return to the curtain rods first. Do you still have those curtain rods?
Mrs. PAINE. I believe so.
Mr. JENNER. You believe so, or you know; which?
Mrs. PAINE. I think Michael went to look after the assassination, whether these were still in the garage.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have a conversation with Michael as to whether he did or didn't look?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Why was he looking to see if the curtain rod package was there?
Mrs. PAINE. He was particularly interested in the wrapping, was the wrapping still there, the brown paper.
Mr. JENNER. When did this take place?
Mrs. PAINE. After the assassination, perhaps a week or so later, perhaps when one of the FBI people were out; I don't really recall.
Mr. JENNER. And was the package with the curtain rods found on that occasion?
Mrs. PAINE. It is my recollection it was.
Mr. JENNER. What about the venetian blind package?
Mrs. PAINE. Still there, still wrapped.
Mr. JENNER. You are fully conscious of the fact that that package is still there?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And to the best of your knowledge, information, and belief the other package, likewise, is there?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Senator COOPER. Let me ask a question there. After the assassination, at anytime did you go into the garage and look to see if both of these packages were there?
Mrs. PAINE. A week and a half, or a week later.
Senator COOPER. At any time?
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Mrs. PAINE. Did I, personally?
Senator COOPER. Have you seen these packages since the assassination?
Mrs. PAINE. It seems to me I recall seeing a package.
Senator COOPER. What?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall opening it up and looking in carefully. I seem to recall seeing the package
Senator COOPER. Both of them?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Senator COOPER. Or just one?
Mrs. PAINE. Both.
Senator COOPER. Did you feel them to see if the rods were in there?
Mrs. PAINE. No. I think Michael did, but I am not certain.
Senator COOPER. But you never did, yourself?
Mrs. PAINE. It was not my most pressing--
Senator COOPER. What?
Mrs. PAINE. It was not the most pressing thing I had to do at that time.
Senator COOPER. I know that. But you must have read after the assassination the story about Lee Oswald saying, he told Mr. Frazier, I think, that he was carrying some curtain rods in the car?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Senator COOPER. Do you remember reading that?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I remember reading that.
Senator COOPER. Didn't that lead you-Did it lead you then to go in and see if the curtain rods were there?
Mrs. PAINE. It was all I could do at that point to answer my door, answer my telephone, and take care of my children.
Senator COOPER. I understand you had many things to do.
Mrs. PAINE. So I did not.
Senator COOPER. You never did do it?
Mrs. PAINE. I am not certain whether I specifically went in and checked on that. I recall a conversation with Michael about it and, to the best of my recollection, things looked as I expected to find them looking out there. This package with brown paper was still there.
Mr. JENNER. By any chance, does that package appear in the photograph that you have identified of the interior of your garage?
Mrs. PAINE. I think it is this that is on a shelf almost to the ceiling.
Mr. JENNER. May I get over here, Mr. Chairman?
Mrs. PAINE. Along the west edge of the garage, up here.
Mr. JENNER. In view of this, I think it is of some importance that you mark on Commission Exhibit 429 what appears to you to be the package in which the curtain rods were.
Mrs. PAINE. To the best of my recollection.
Mr. JENNER. Now the witness has by an arrow indicated a shelf very close to the ceiling in the rear of the garage, and an arrow pointing to what appears to be a long package on that shelf, underneath which she has written "Wrapping paper around venetian blinds"--
Mrs. PAINE. "And thin."
Mr. JENNER. What is the next word?
Mrs. PAINE. "Curtain rods."
Mr. JENNER. There were two packages, Mrs. Paine, one with the rods and one with the venetian blinds?
Mrs. PAINE. I can't recall. The reds were so thin they hardly warranted a package of their own, but that is rationalization, as you call it.
Mr. JENNER. You do have a recollection that those rods were a very lightweight metal?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Do you?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. They were not round.
Mr. JENNER. They were flat and slender?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. They were not at all heavy?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
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Mr. JENNER. They were curved? Were they curved in any respect?
Mrs. PAINE. They curved at the ends to attach to the bracket that held them up on the wall.
Mr. JENNER. May I use the chalk on the board, Mr. Chairman. Perhaps it might be better for you, Mrs. Paine, so I don't influence you. Would you draw a picture of the rods?
Mrs. PAINE. You are looking down from the top. It attaches here, well, over a loop thing on the wall. Looking from the inside, it curves over a slight bit, and then this is recessed.
Mr. JENNER. I am going to have to have you do that over on a sheet of paper. Will you remain standing for the moment. We will give it an exhibit number. But I would like to have you proceed there. What did you say this was, in the lower diagram?
Mrs. PAINE. You are looking down.
Mr. JENNER. Now, where was the break?
Mrs. PAINE. The break?
Mr. JENNER. You said they were extension.
Mrs. PAINE. That is right. When they are up on the window, it would be like that.
Mr. JENNER. You have drawn a double line to indicate what would be seen if you were looking down into the U-shape of the rod?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. The double line indicates what on either side?
Mrs. PAINE. That the lightweight metal, white, turned over, bent around, something less than a quarter of an inch on each side.
Mr. JENNER. Now, would you be good enough to make the same drawing. We will mark that sheet as Commission Exhibit No. 449 upon which the witness is now drawing the curtain rod.
(Commission Exhibit No. 449 was marked for identification.)
Mr. JENNER. While you are doing that, Mrs. Paine, would you be good enough when you return to Irving, Tex., to see if those rods are at hand, and some of our men are going to be in Irving next week. We might come out and take a
look at them, and perhaps you might surrender them to us.
Mrs. PAINE. You are perfectly welcome to them.
Mr. JENNER. Would you in that connection, Mrs. Paine do not open the package until we arrive?
Mrs. PAINE. I won't even look, then.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, would you mark "A" in the upper elevation and "B" in the lower elevation. The elevation in the drawing you have indicated as "A" is a depiction of what?
Mrs. PAINE. The curtain rod, as you might look at it from the top when it is hanging in its position, when it is placed in position on the window.
Mr. JENNER. And "B"?
Mrs. PAINE. "B" is as it might appear if you could look at it from outside the house; the window.
Mr. JENNER. While the rod was in place?
Mrs. PAINE. While the rod was in place.
Mr. JENNER. You have written to the left-hand side "Place at which it attaches to wall fixture," indicating the butt end of the curved side of the rod?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And the two oblongs, each of which you have put at the ends
of depiction "B," represent the upturned ends of the fixtures at each end?
Mrs. PAINE. Right.
Mr. JENNER. Would you put a little line as to where the break was in the rod.
I offer in evidence, Mr. Chairman, as Commission Exhibit No. 449 the drawing that the witness has just made, and about which she has testified.
Senator COOPER. It will be admitted as part of the evidence.
(Commission Exhibit No. 449 was received in evidence.)
Mr. JENNER. Had there been any conversation between you and Lee Oswald, or between you and Marina, or any conversation taking place in your presence prior to this occasion, in which the subject of curtain rods was mentioned?
Mrs. PAINE. No; there was no such conversation.
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Mr. JENNER. Was the subject of curtain rods--had that ever been mentioned during all of these weekends that Lee Oswald had come to your home, commencing, I think you said, with his first return on October 4, 1963?
Mrs. PAINE. It. had not been mentioned.
Mr. JENNER. Never by anybody?
Mrs. PAINE. By anybody.
Mr. JENNER. Had the subject of curtain rods been mentioned even inadvertently, let us say, by some neighbor talking about the subject, as to whether
you had some curtain rods you weren't using?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. That might be loaned? I think you had testified that the curtain rods, when unextended, were 36 inches long, approximately?
Mrs. PAINE. That is a guess. I would say, thinking further about it, it must be shorter than that. One went over a window that I am pretty sure was 30 inches wide, and one went over a window that was 42 inches wide, so it had to extend between these. They were identical, and had served at these different windows.
Mr. JENNER. The rods were identical in length when unextended?
Mrs. PAINE. Or when fully extended; yes.
Mr. JENNER. What?
Mrs. PAINE. Or when fully extended.
Mr. JENNER. Or when fully extended; yes. They could be extended to as great as 42 inches?
Mrs. PAINE. At least that. I am just saying what windows they were used for.
Mr. JENNER. If the rods are still available, we will be able to obtain them?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And we will know exactly their length, extended and unextended. Now, as you think further about it, the reds when not extended, that is, when pushed together, might be but 30 inches long?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Because you recall that you have a 30-inch-wide window.
Mrs. PAINE. I believe it is more that width than 36.
Mr. JENNER. Would you hold up your hands to indicate what you think the width or the length of the rods is when not extended?
Mrs. PAINE. Oh, I don't recall. Maybe like this.
Mr. JENNER. Would you measure that, Mr. Liebeler, please?
Mr. LIEBELER. About 28 inches.
Mr. JENNER. I intend to leave the subject of the curtain rods, gentlemen, if you have any questions
Mr. McCLOY. May I ask a question. Did the FBI question you about the curtain rods any, or the Dallas police officials?
Mrs. PAINE. Not the Dallas police.
Mr. McCLOY. Not the Dallas police?
Mrs. PAINE. No. It is possible the FBI did. I don't recall such question.
Mr. McCLOY. They didn't take any rods from the garage that you are aware of?
Mrs. PAINE. You are aware what the police took. I never did know exactly what they took. I have never heard any mention of the reds having left.
Mr. McCLOY. You are not conscious of the Dallas police ever talking to you about curtain rods?
Mrs. PAINE. Absolutely no.
Mr. McCLOY. But possibly some member of the FBI did?
Mrs. PAINE. Possibly. I can't recall.
Mr. McCLOY. You can't recall?
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever mention to the FBI anything, or anybody else up until recently, the existence of the curtain reds about which you have now testified?
Mrs. PAINE. I have already said Michael and I discussed it.
Mr. JENNER. When?
Mrs. PAINE. A week or two after the assassination would be my guess.
Mr. JENNER. And did you discuss those particular curtain rods about which you have now testified?
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Mrs. PAINE. We were particularly interested in seeing if the wrapping paper that we used to wrap these things was there, and it was. I recall that.
Representative FORD. Did Lee Oswald know where you kept this roll of wrapping paper?
Mrs. PAINE. To the best of my knowledge, he did not know where I kept it.
I had never wrapped something when he was around. Neither he nor Marina had ever asked to use this paper or the string that I had.
representative FORD. Where did you keep it? I don't recall precisely.
Mrs. PAINE. I can be very clear. There is a picture here of a large secretary desk on Commission Exhibit No. 435. It is in the bottom drawer, you see, in that desk. This is not the secretary desk upon which--
Mr. JENNER. The note was found?
Mrs. PAINE. The note was found.
Representative FORD. You kept it in the lower drawer?
Mrs. PAINE. Along with some gum tape and string.
Representative FORD. And this is the section shown on Commission Exhibit 435?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Reporter, you caught the measurement by Mr. Liebeler, 28 inches. Mrs. Paine, what is your best recollection as to how many curtain rods there were?
Mrs. PAINE. Two, I am certain.
Mr. JENNER. Just two? And you wrapped the package yourself, did you?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. When you and Michael undertook your discussion about curtain rods, did you or did he open up this package?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall.
Mr. JENNER. Is it your present best recollection that as far as you know, the package, as far as wrapping is concerned, is in the same condition now as when you wrapped it initially?
Mrs. PAINE. Certainly very similar.
Senator COOPER. What was the answer?
Mrs. PAINE. Certainly very similar. I don't recall making any change.
Mr. JENNER. Is there a possibility that the package was unwrapped at anytime?
Mrs. PAINE. In connection with this inquiry of Michael's; yes.
Mr. JENNER. You think he might have but you don't know.
Mrs. PAINE. Or I might have. I don't recall. I recall that it wasn't something that interested me as much as the other things I had to get done.
Mr. JENNER. But the rods about which you have testified as far as you know are on the shelf in your garage at your home?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall whether when the FBI discussed this subject with you, if you can recall that, that you advised the FBI of these particular curtain rods?
Mrs. PAINE. I am not perfectly certain that they discussed it with me.
Mr. JENNER. You just have no recollection of any interview with the FBI on this particular subject?
Mrs. PAINE. It seems to me they brought it up, but I don't recall the content nor whether they went out. I certainly think I would remember if I had gone out to the garage with an FBI representative.
Mr. JENNER. But you do not?
Mrs. PAINE. But I do not remember such an occasion.
Mr. JENNER. Unless the members of the Commission have any further questions with respect to the curtain rods, I will return to the afternoon.
Senator COOPER. I want to ask just two questions. Before the assassination, did you know where the package with the curtain rods in it was situated within the garage?
Mrs. PAINE. I gave it no attention but yes, it is my impression that I did go out to see if things were where I expected to find them. They were wrapped in brown paper, the curtain rods and venetian blinds. And found things there. I don't recall that I looked into the package.
Mr. JENNER. You did find the package?
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Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. What was the size of the package in length and width if you can remember at the time you wrapped it?
Mrs. PAINE. I suppose about like this, not closed but just wrapping paper folded over.
Mr. JENNER. Would you hold your hands there please.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. But by no means a neat package, just enough to keep the dust off.
Mr. LIEBELER. Thirty-two and a half inches.
Senator COOPER. What was the width of the package?
Mrs. PAINE. Like so.
Senator COOPER. That you wrapped?
Mrs. PAINE. Now I am not certain. I am really thinking now of the package with the venetian blind.- I don't recall exactly the package with the rods, whether they were included in this other or whether they warranted a package of their own.
Mr. LIEBELER. The witness indicated a width of approximately 7 1/2 inches.
Senator COOPER. I will ask one other question. The ends of the rod which are at right angles to the long surface, how long? What is their approximate size?
Mrs. PAINE. Two and a half inches to three inches.
Senator COOPER. What?
Mrs. PAINE. Two and a half to three inches.
Senator COOPER. All right, go ahead.
Mr. JENNER. Anyone entering your home from the outside walking up your driveway and looking in the windows, would they see anybody sitting on the sofa you have described?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Do you sit on the sofa to look at your television set?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Would you take the ground floor plan that is before you and indicate--
Mrs. PAINE. Do you want me to draw in the sofa and the television set?
Mr. JENNER. No; I just want you to put an "X" as to where the sofa is, and put a double "X" as to where the television set is. Now the opening that appears to the left of the double "X," is that a window or a door?
Mrs. PAINE. That is the front door.
Mr. JENNER. And is there any window in that wall, in the living room wall.
Mrs. PAINE. Practically the rest of the wall is window,.
Mr. JENNER. And on this drawing it appears as a solid wall?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. The fact is that is a picture window?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right. It is just your printing filled in. It is exactly like this. There it is.
Mr. JENNER. Turning to Commission Exhibit 431, the picture window is shown there, is it not?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now it would be possible, would it not, if someone walked along the sidewalk and was intent on peering in to see if anyone is there, to see somebody sitting at the sofa looking at the television set?
Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes.
(Discussion off the record. )
Mr. McCLOY. I am very anxious to hear your story before we leave.
Senator COOPER. I can stay here while the details are filled in.
Mr. JENNER. The police arrived and what occurred.
Mrs. PAINE. I went to the door. They announced themselves as from both the sheriff's office and the Dallas Police Office, showed me at least one package or two. I was very surprised.
Mr. JENNER. Did you say anything?
Mrs. PAINE. I said nothing. I think I just dropped my jaw. And the man in front said by way of explanation "We have Lee Oswald in custody. He is charged with shooting an officer." This is the first I had any idea that Lee
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might be in trouble with the police or in any way involved in the day's events. I asked them to come in. They said they wanted to search the house. I asked if they had a warrant. They said they didn't. They said they could get the sheriff out here right away with one if I insisted. And I said no, that was all right, they could be my guests.
They then did search the house. I directed them to the fact that most of the Oswald's things were in storage in my garage and showed where the garage was, and to the room where Marina and the baby had stayed where they would find the other things which belonged to the Oswalds. Marina and I went with two or three of these police officers to the garage.
Mr. JENNER. How many police officers were there?
Mrs. PAINE. There were six altogether, and they were busy in various parts of the house. The officer asked me in the garage did Lee Oswald have any weapons or guns. I said no, and translated the question to Marina, and she said yes; that she had seen a portion of it--had looked into--she indicated the blanket roll on the floor.
Mr. JENNER. Was the blanket roll on the floor at that time?
Mrs. PAINE. She indicated the blanket roll on the floor very close to where I was standing. As she told me about it I stepped onto the blanket roll.
Mr. JENNER. This might be helpful. You had shaped that up yesterday and I will just put it on the floor.
Mrs. PAINE. And she indicated to me that she had peered into this roll and saw a portion of what she took to be a gun she knew her husband to have, a rifle. And I then translated this to the officers that she knew that her husband had a gun that he had stored in here.
Mr. JENNER. Were you standing on the blanket when you advised--
Mrs. PAINE. When I translated. I then stepped off of it and the officer picked it up in the middle and it bent so.
Mr. JENNER. It hung limp just as it now hangs limp in your hand?
Mrs. PAINE. And at this moment I felt this man was in very deep trouble and may have done--
Mr. McCLOY. Were the strings still on it?
Mrs. PAINE. The strings were still on it. It looked exactly as it had at previous times I had seen it. It was at this point I say I made the connection with the assassination, thinking that possibly, knowing already that the shot had been made from the School Book Depository, and that this was a rifle that was missing, I wondered if he would not also be charged before the day was out with the assassination.
Mr. JENNER. Did you say anything?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I didn't say that.
Mr. JENNER. When the officer picked up the blanket package, did you hear any crinkling as though there was paper inside?
Mrs. PAINE. No crinkling.
Mr. JENNER. None whatsoever. When you stepped on the package, did you have a feeling through your feet that there was something inside the package in the way of paper.
Mrs. PAINE. Not anything in the way of paper.
Mr. JENNER. Or wrapping.
Mrs. PAINE. Or anything that crinkled; no. I did think it was hard but that was my cement floor.
Mr. JENNER. But definitely you had no sensation of any paper inside?
Mrs. PAINE. No such sensation.
Mr. JENNER. Of the nature or character of the wrapping paper you identified yesterday.
Mrs. PAINE. No; and when he picked it up I would think such paper would rattle, but there was no such sound. Marina said nothing at this time. She was very white, and of course I judged--
Mr. JENNER. Did she blanch?
Mrs. PAINE. She is not a person to immediately show her feelings necessarily. She was white. I wouldn't say that it was a sudden thing. I can't be certain that it was sudden at that point.
Representative FORD. How close was she standing to it.
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Mrs. PAINE. From here to there, about 6 feet.
Mr. JENNER. Proceed.
Mrs. PAINE. The officers then said they would like me and Marina to go down to the police station, and I said well, I would seek to try to get a baby-sitter to come to stay with the children so that we might accompany them. About this time, we then left the garage as I recall, because then Michael Paine arrived at the front door. I was in the living room when he came. And I said "Did you know to come" and he said that he had heard Oswald's name mentioned on the radio, and had come over directly, for which I may say I was very glad.
Mr. JENNER. How far away from your home where did he live?
Mrs. PAINE. It would take about a half hour drive he was working--from where he was working to come, 20 minutes perhaps.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have the address at the tip of your tongue?
Mrs. PAINE. Where he works; no. I don't know the address. I know how to get to it.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know where he lived?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. What was the address?
Mrs. PAINE. He lived at the Villa Fontaine Apartments, apartment 217, 2377 Dalworth.
Mr. JENNER. D-A-L-W-O-R-T-H?
Mrs. PAINE. D-A-L-W-O-R-T-H, in Grand Prairie, Tex.
Mr. JENNER. Where is Grand Prairie, Tex.
Mrs. PAINE. Grand Prairie is suburban to Dallas, between Dallas and Fort Worth, nearer to Dallas, and it was a location very near to where he worked.
Mr. JENNER. What distance in miles from your home?
Mrs. PAINE. You measure distance in minutes in Texas; driving time. I don't now; 20 minutes to where he lived.
Mr. JENNER. All right, proceed.
Mrs. PAINE. The police officers then asked if Michael would also accompany us to the police station and he said he would. I changed clothes to a suit from slacks, and went to the house of my babysitter. She has no telephone. I need to walk to her.
Mr. JENNER. Where was Marina in the meantime?
Mrs. PAINE. Marina remained in the house with the children. Lynn by this time had awakened as I recall. Christopher was still sleeping and I think June was also. And I said I would walk over to my neighbors to ask if--there was something that intervened I just remembered. I first went and asked my immediate neighbor, Mrs. Roberts, if she could keep the children for a short time in the afternoon, but she was just on her way to go somewhere. She couldn't. So then I went to the home of the person I normally have for a baby- sitter. It was now after school or this babysitter would not have been there, which brings us to 3:30 perhaps. And I asked the mother if the young girl, teenage girl, could come and stay at the house. I was accompanied to the house by one of the officers. As we left the house I said "Oh, you don't have to go with me." Oh, he said, he'd be glad to. And then it occurred to me he had been assigned to go with me, and I said "come along." It was the first I have ever experienced being in the company of people who suspected me of anything, and of course that is their business.
We did arrange then for the girls to come back, one or two, I forget whether it was two of the daughters or one that came then to my house to stay with the children. As I came back, I noticed the officers carrying a number of things from the house, and I looked into the back of one of the cars. It was across the street from my house, and saw he had three cases of 78 records of mine, and I said, "You don't need those and I want to use them on Thanksgiving weekend. I have promised to lead a folk dance conference on the weekend. I will need those records which are all folk dance records and I doubt that you might get them back at that time."
And I said, "that is a 16 mm projector. You don't want that. It is mine."
And he took me by the arm and he said, "We'd better get down to the station. We have wasted too much time as it is." And I said, "I want a list of what you are taking, please." Or perhaps that was before. As much answer
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as I ever got was "We'd better get to the station." Then I evidently had made them nervous because when we got back from this car to the house, Marina wanted to change from slacks as I had already done to a dress. They would not permit her to do that. I said "She has a right to, she is a woman, to dress as she wishes before going down." And I directed her to the bathroom to change. The officer opened the bathroom door and said no, she had no time to change. I was still making arrangements with the babysitters, arranging for our leaving the children there, and one of the officers made a statement to the effect of "we'd better get this straight in a hurry Mrs. Paine or we'll just take the children down and leave them with juvenile while we talk to you."
And I said "Lynn, you may come too" in reply to this. I don't like being threatened. And then Christopher was still sleeping so I left him in the house and Lynn, my daughter, and Marina took her daughter and her baby with her to the police station, so we were quite a group going into town in the car. Michael was in one car, Marina and I and all the children were in another with three police officers as I recall. One of them spoke some Czech, tried to understand what was being said. The one in the front seat turned to me and said "Are you a Communist," and I said, "No, I am not, and I don't even feel the need of a Fifth Amendment." And he was satisfied with that. We went on then to the police station, and waited until such time as they could interview us.
They interviewed Michael at one point separately.
Mr. JENNER. Separately?
Mrs. PAINE. And they interviewed Marina while I was present.
Mr. JENNER. Did you interpret for her?
Mrs. PAINE. They had an interpreter there, a Mr. Ilya Mamantov whom I was very glad to see. He is the son-in-law of a woman who has tutored me in Dallas, so I had met him before. I was very glad to have someone whose skill in Russian was greater than mine, and Marina had said even in the car going down to the station, "your Russian has suddenly become no good at all." She had asked me again in the car, "isn't it true that the penalty for shooting someone in Texas is the electric chair" and I said "yes, that is true."
Then at the police station--
Representative FORD. May I ask this. Was there any interrogation other than what you have mentioned by police officers in the car?
Mrs. PAINE. No; none that I recall.
Representative FORD. You and Marina talked back and forth freely or to a limited degree?
Mrs. PAINE. We talked back and forth freely and then she wanted me to translate to the officer, to the one who understood some Czech, to help him understand. Then in the room where we were asked questions, what I particularly recall was they wanted Marina to say what she had said in the garage to the effect that she had seen a rifle in that wrapped blanket, and she made the statement again and it was made up into an affidavit for her to sign with Mr. Mamantov making very clear the translation of each sentence, each word, and I recall her statement was to the effect that she had looked in and seen a portion of the gun, of something which she took to be the gun she knew her husband had; that she had not opened the package, but had just looked into it.
They then brought in--
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, a slight interruption.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Was the occasion when Mrs. Oswald, Marina, made the remark of having seen a weapon inside the blanket, was that the first notice that you had of any kind or character that there was a weapon in your garage?
Mrs. PAINE. That is absolutely the first. Indeed it was contrary to my expectation as I said. When the officer asked me I answered his question before I even translated it, answered it in the negative, and then translated it and found that indeed there had been a gun there.
Mr. JENNER. All right, go ahead.
Mrs. PAINE. They then showed a gun, a rifle to Marina, and asked her if she could identify the gun as being her husband's.
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She said her husband had a dark gun, dark in color, that she wasn't absolutely certain that this was the gun. She couldn't definitely recall the sight on the top of it.
Mr. JENNER. The telescope sight?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. Then I also was asked to make an affidavit which I signed, to the effect that I had heard her say in the garage that she had looked into this package and seen what she took to be a rifle she knew her husband had. It was after they had finished with this session that I went back in the same room where Michael was, and Mrs. Oswald, senior, came in, Mrs. Marguerite Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. Had you met her at anytime up to that moment?
Mrs. PAINE. No. I had never met her before.
Mr. JENNER. Had you ever talked with her at anytime up to that moment?
Mrs. PAINE. I had never talked with her.
Mr. JENNER. Were you advised in advance of anything that had been said that she was to come?
Mrs. PAINE. No. She said she had heard on her car radio, on her way to work in the afternoon.
Mr. JENNER. What time was this about?
Mrs. PAINE. She heard it?
Mr. JENNER. No; that she came?
Mrs. PAINE. It was, it was certainly supper time. We had eaten no lunch.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mrs. PAINE. And she said she heard on her car radio that Lee Oswald had been in custody in Dallas and had come over. Previously during October and November Marina. had told me she regretted that Lee didn't wish to keep up contact with his mother because she thought it was only proper to tell the mother of the coming grandchild, and then she wanted to announce the birth when the baby had come but she said Lee didn't try to keep her address, and Marina didn't know how to contact her or didn't want to do so around her husband certainly.
There was a warm greeting in the police station.
Mr. JENNER. Between whom?
Mrs. PAINE. Between Marguerite Oswald and Marina Oswald and I recall both wept and Mrs. Marguerite Oswald exclaimed over the new baby, and then held the baby. I then also met Robert Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. When did he come with relation to when Marguerite Oswald entered?
Mrs. PAINE. It seemed to me later.
Mr. JENNER. Had you met Robert Oswald at anytime up to that moment?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I had not.
Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion that had taken place during the course of the day up to that moment indicating to you that Robert Oswald might or would arrive on the scene?
Mrs. PAINE. No; nothing that day about Robert at all.
Mr. JENNER. When he entered was there an indication to you at all that none of the people, in addition to yourself, was aware that he was about to--that they had any advance advice that he was going to be present?
Mrs. PAINE. There was no indication of any advance advice to any of the people.
Mr. JENNER. Was there any indication to the contrary?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't think anyone was really surprised that he had come.
Mr. JENNER. There was this lack of prior notice?
Mrs. PAINE. Lack of prior notice. We then talked about where to go.
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, does the "we" include your husband all the time?
Mrs. PAINE. The "we" then was a group at this point of my husband, Marguerite Oswald, Marina Oswald, Robert Oswald, and myself, three children.
Mr. JENNER. Did your husband know Robert Oswald prior to this time?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Were they introduced to each other on this occasion?
Mrs. PAINE. They were in the same room and they might have been. It was agreed that Robert was to stay in a hotel. Marguerite Oswald asked i/she could come out and stay with Marina at my home, and it was agreed.
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Mr. JENNER. Was it agreed that Marina would stay at your house that night?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; certainly all her baby things were there. So, we went back there. We were taken back by police officers.
Mr. JENNER. Everybody assumed she would return back to your home?
Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes.
Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion that would indicate any reluctance on
the part of anybody that she return to your home?
Mrs. PAINE. None.
Mr. JENNER. None whatsoever by anybody?
Mrs. PAINE. That is correct, none whatsoever by anybody.
The police officers brought us back to my home. It was by this time dark, and I think it was about 9 o'clock in the evening. I asked Michael to go out and buy hamburgers at a drive-in so we wouldn't have to cook, and we ate these as best we could, and began to prepare to retire. We talked. I have a few specific recollections of that period that I will put in here.
Just close to the time of retiring Marina told me that just the night before Lee had said to her he hoped they could get an apartment together again soon. As she said this, I felt she was hurt and confused, wondering how he could have said such a thing which indicated wanting to be together with her when he must have already been planning something that would inevitably cause separation. I asked her did she think that Lee had killed the President and she said, "I don't know." And I felt that this was not something to talk about really anyway. But my curiosity overcame my politeness.
Now, back a little bit to the time in the living room, Mrs. Oswald and Michael and Marina and I were all there, and Mrs. Oswald, I recall, said, I mean of course Mrs. Marguerite Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. PAINE. That if they were prominent people there would be three of the lawyers down in the city jail now trying to defend her son, and coming to his aid.
She felt that since they were just small people that there wouldn't--they wouldn't get the proper attention or care, and I tried to say this was not a small case. That most careful attention would be given it, but she didn't feel that way.
Mr. JENNER. You made no impression on her?
Mrs. PAINE. I made no impression on her.
Mr. JENNER. I take it
Mrs. PAINE. She made an impression on me.
Mr. JENNER. I think we would prefer if you would call her Marguerite. It would avoid confusion.
Mrs. PAINE. All right. Somewhere in that evening before we retired, and after we had eaten, the doorbell rang and two men from Life Magazine appeared. I was--
Mr. JENNER. Had you had any advance notice?
Mrs. PAINE. We had had no advance notice.
Mr. JENNER. Nobody did?
Mrs. PAINE. Nobody did.
Mr. JENNER. You in particular and none of the others in the room?
Mrs. PAINE. None of the others.
Mr. JENNER. That was your impression?
Mrs. PAINE. I would be quite certain that none of the others and myself--
Mr. JENNER. At least that was your impression at the moment?
Mrs. PAINE. That they had no prior information that these people might come. I will say I was not surprised that anyone of the press found his way to our door at that point. If anything, I was surprised there weren't more. Life Magazine was the only company or group to appear that evening. I permitted them to come in, and I felt that Mrs. Marguerite Oswald was interested in the possibility of their buying the story or paying for what information she and Marina might give them.
Mr. JENNER. Had that occurred to you?
Mrs. PAINE. Had that occurred to me? No. But then, too, I wasn't thinking about pay for lawyers but she made that connection verbally in my presence.
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Mr. JENNER. What connection?
Mrs. PAINE. Between the need for money.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. PAINE. The availability of Life Magazine and the need to pay for a lawyer.
Mr. JENNER. And she was the one who raised that subject?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; she raised it.
Mr. JENNER. For commercialization of the story?
Mrs. PAINE. I recall now she raised it definitely enough that Mr. Tommy Thompson of Life called, I believe still that evening, to see if he could offer anything or what he might be empowered to offer.
Mr. JENNER. That was all instigated by her?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; very much so. I noticed that the other man, whose name I forget, had a camera and I was amazed, and I also saw he took a picture and I was amazed, he tried with a dim light in the room.
Mr. JENNER. When you say he took a picture, you don't mean he took a picture from your living room?
Mrs. PAINE. He took a picture in my living room. He photographed. I saw him wind his roll.
Mr. JENNER. Thank you.
Mrs. PAINE. I made the mistake I now think of turning on another light simply as an act of hostess, it was dim in the living room but I hadn't realized until later that I was making it possible for him to take a picture.
I didn't know what was best for me to do as hostess. It seemed to me that Mrs. Oswald, Sr., Mrs. Marguerite Oswald, was both interested in encouraging the Life Magazine representatives and still didn't really want her picture taken, and I had no personal objection to their being there. But I considered the Oswalds my guests and I didn't want to have the Life Magazine people there if they didn't want them. But they left fairly promptly, saying that they would come back in the morning.
Mr. JENNER. Did they say anything about your talking or not talking to any other news media representatives until they had talked with you?
Mrs. PAINE. Not to me.
Mr. JENNER. Nothing of that implied?
Mrs. PAINE. No. It was after this that the conversation I have already related with Marina took place, and we finished our preparations for bed. She said to me she didn't think she would sleep fairly soon and asked if she could borrow my hair dryer, she would stay up and take a shower, which she often said renewed her spirits, and I then went to bed, having given her my hair dryer. We woke perhaps something after 7 the next morning or closer to 8.
Mr. JENNER. When you say "we", who do you mean?
Mrs. PAINE. The household. I think we had not yet--we pretty much woke all at once.
Mr. JENNER. Did your husband remain at your home?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; he remained at my home that night, the first time he had been there in a great long time. We were still eating breakfast or had just begun when the two Life people arrived again, this time with an interpreter, a woman doctor whose name I don't remember, and Marguerite Oswald and Marina Oswald, with her two little girls went with these two Life Magazine people to downtown Dallas for the purpose of seeing Lee, and Marguerite Oswald wanted to see that he got legal counsel immediately.
They were acting, the Life people were acting in this case as shovers, I feel, and I also thought Marguerite Oswald was hoping that something could be arranged between them, that would be financially helpful.
Mr. JENNER. Did she say anything that further stimulated your thoughts and reaction in that direction?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. I don't recall specifically but I have the clear impression that--
Mr. JENNER. From her conversation with the Life representatives?
Mrs. PAINE. From her conversation. Yes. They left quite soon, I remember wishing Marina had taken more time to have more breakfast since it was going to be a trying day, and that is the last I saw her until March 9, in the evening, very recently.
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Mr. JENNER. March 9, 1964?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Just a week or so ago?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right. She left, of course, expecting to come back. She took only the immediate needs of the baby's diapers and bottle, and I fully expected her to come back later that same day. I don't really recall. I think there must have been some newsmen out then that morning, later that morning.
Mr. JENNER. To see you, at your home?
Mrs. PAINE. At my home. I would be certain of that. The Houston Post--well, yes. And Michael was there also, at least in the morning as I recall, and talked with these people.
I believe the local paper, Irving News, was there. Then Michael, as I recall, went to do something related to his work or had to do some shopping.
Mr. JENNER. He left your home?
Mrs. PAINE. Anyway, in the afternoon I was the only one there and I felt I had better get some grocery shopping done so as to be prepared for a long stay home just answering the doorbell and telling what I could to the people who wanted to know. I was just preparing to go to the grocery store when several officers arrived again from the Dallas Police Office and asked if they could search.
This time I was in the yard, the front yard on the grass, and asked if they could search and held up their warrant and I said, yes, they could search. They said they were looking for something specific and I said, "I want to go to the grocery store, I'll just go and you go ahead and do your searching."
I then went to the grocery store and when I came back they had finished and left, locking my door which necessitated my getting out my key, I don't normally lock my door when I go shopping.
Representative FORD. Did you take your children shopping?
Mrs. PAINE. Always. Then about 3:30 or 4 I got a telephone call.
Mr. JENNER. The phone rang?
Mrs. PAINE. The phone rang; I answered it.
Mr. JENNER. Did you recognize the voice?
Mrs. PAINE. I recognized the voice but I don't recall what he said?
Mr. JENNER. What did the voice say?
Mrs. PAINE. The voice said: "This is Lee."
Mr. JENNER. Give your best recollection of everything you said and if you can, please, everything he said, and exactly what you said.
Mrs. PAINE. I said, "Well, Hi." And he said he wanted to ask me to call Mr. John Abt in New York for him after 6 p.m. He gave me a telephone number
of an office in New York and a residence in New York.
Mr. JENNER. Two telephone numbers he gave you?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. One office and one residence of Mr. John Abt. Did he say who Mr. John Abt was?
Mrs. PAINE. He said he was an attorney he wanted to have.
Mr. JENNER. Represent him?
Mrs. PAINE. To represent him. He thanked me for my concern.
Mr. JENNER. Did he tell you or ask you what you were to do or say to Mr. Abt if you reached him?
Mrs. PAINE. I carried the clear impression I was to ask him if he would serve as attorney for Lee Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Have you given the substance of the conversation in as much detail, of the entire conversation, as you now can recall?
Mrs. PAINE. There is a little more that is.
Senator COOPER. Why don't you just go ahead and tell it as you remember it, everything that he said and you said?
Mrs. PAINE. I can't give the specific words to this part but I carry a clear impression, too, that he sounded to me almost as if nothing out of the ordinary had happened.
I would make this telephone call for him, would help him, as I had in other ways previously. He was, he expressed gratitude to me. I felt, but did not
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express, considerable irritation at his seeming to be so apart from the situation, so presuming of his own innocence, if you will, but I did say I would make the call for him.
Then he called back almost immediately. I gather that he had made the call to me on the permission to make a different call and then he got specific permission from the police to make a call to me and the call was identical.
Mr. JENNER. This is speculation?
Mrs. PAINE. This is speculation but the content of the second call was almost identical.
Mr. JENNER. The phone rang?
Mrs. PAINE. He asked me to contact John Abt.
Mr. JENNER. He identified himself and he asked you to make the call?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. What did he say?
Mrs. PAINE. He wanted me to call this lawyer.
Mr. JENNER. Did you express any surprise for him to call back almost immediately giving you the same message that he had given previously?
Mrs. PAINE. I think somebody must have said, that the officers had said he could call, make this call.
Mr. JENNER. Did you say anything about the fact that he had already just called you about the same subject matter?
Mrs. PAINE. He may have added.
Mr. JENNER. Did you, please?
Mrs. PAINE. No. I was quite stunned that he called at all or that he thought he could ask anything of me, appalled, really.
Mr. McCLOY. Did he say he was innocent, or did he just have this conversation with respect to the retention of a counsel?
Mrs. PAINE. That is all.
Mr. JENNER. At no time during either of these conversations did he deny that he was in any way involved in this situation?
Mrs. PAINE. He made no reference to why he was at the police station or why he needed a lawyer.
Mr. JENNER. He just assumed that you knew he was at the police station, did he?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right,
Mr. JENNER. That was your impression?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right,
Mr. JENNER. He didn't say where he was?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. He just started out saying what you now say he said?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. But in no respect did he say to you that he was entirely innocent of any charges that had been made against him?
Mrs. PAINE. He did not say that.
Mr. JENNER. Did he mention the subject at all of the assassination of the
President or the slaying of Officer Tippit?
Mrs. PAINE. No; he did not.
Mr. JENNER. What you have given is your best recollection of the entire conversation?
Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.
Representative FORD. This was Saturday afternoon, November 23?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Representative FORD. About what time?
Mrs. PAINE. Four, perhaps in the afternoon.
Representative FORD. Had you seen him the day before?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. McCLOY. Who was in the house with you when that call came in?
Mrs. PAINE. Just my children.
Mr. McCLOY. Just your children.
Representative FORD. While you were shopping and after the officers had come with a warrant, they went in the house, no one was in the house?
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Mrs. PAINE. For a portion of the time they were looking, no one was in the house.
Representative FORD. They were there alone?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. McCLOY. Did they indicate--were they still there when you got back?
Mrs. PAINE. No; they were not. Remember the door was locked.
Mr. McCLOY. Yes; the door was locked, that is what I gather. Do you know what they took on this occasion, or did they tell you what they were coming for?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I do not. Before I left they were leafing through books to see if anything fell out but that is all I saw.
Mr. McCLOY. All right.
Mrs. PAINE. In this interim then, I suppose I talked to some more news people but I want to get to the next important point which was that Lee called again.
Mr. JENNER. A third time?
Mrs. PAINE. I really call the first two one, but it was twice dialed.
Mr. JENNER. Fix the time, please.
Mrs. PAINE. It was around 9:30 in the evening.
Mr. JENNER. Who was home? Was your husband there on that occasion?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall.
Mr. JENNER. Was anyone else other than your children and yourself in your home at the time of the receipt of the call in the evening?
Mrs. PAINE. It could only have been Michael. I would remember someone else.
Mr. JENNER. But you have no definite recollection that even he was present?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. All right. The phone rang, you answered it.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you recognize the voice?
Mrs. PAINE. I recognized the voice.
Mr. JENNER. Whose was it?
Mrs. PAINE. It was Lee Oswald's.
Mr. JENNER. What did he say and what did you say?
Mrs. PAINE. He said, "Marina, please," in Russian.
Mr. JENNER. Please, Mrs. Paine, did he speak to you in English in the conversations in the afternoon or in Russian?
Mrs. PAINE. He spoke in English the entire conversation.
Mr. JENNER. The two in the afternoon?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, however, he resorted to Russian, did he?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. He planned to speak to Marina.
Mr. JENNER. I beg your pardon?
Mrs. PAINE. He planned to speak to Marina, and this opening phrase was one he normally used calling as he had many previous times to speak to her.
Mr. JENNER. He was under the assumption, you gathered, that Marina was in your home?
Mrs. PAINE. He certainly was.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mrs. PAINE. And I would be fairly certain that I answered him in English. I said she was not there, that I had a notion about where she might be, but I wasn't at all certain. That I would try to find out. He said, he wanted me to--he said he thought she should be at my house. He felt irritated at not having been able to reach her. And he wanted me to--
Mr. JENNER. Did he sound irritated?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; he sounded just a slight edge to his voice. And he wanted me to deliver a message to her that he thought she should be at my house.
Mr. JENNER. And he so instructed you?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. That is what he said?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. That was so far as I remember, the entire conversation.
Mr. JENNER. What response did you give to his direction?
Mrs. PAINE. I said I would try to reach her.
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Mr. JENNER. His direction--
Mrs. PAINE. And tell her his message.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mrs. PAINE. In the meantime, had you sought to reach John Abt?
Mrs. PAINE. I had, after 6 o'clock, thank you. I had dialed both numbers and neither answered.
Mr. JENNER. Neither answered. Was there any conversation between you and Lee Oswald in the evening conversation to which you reported to him your inability to reach Mr. Abt?
Mrs. PAINE. I do not specifically recall.
Mr. JENNER. Or the subject of Mr. Abt at all?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't want to get in, to rationalization. I can judge that something was said but I do not recall it specifically.
Mr. JENNER. Now, have you given the full extent of that conversation?
Mrs. PAINE. To the best of my recollection.
Mr. JENNER. At anytime during that conversation with Lee Harvey Oswald did he assert or intimate in any form or fashion his innocence of any charges against him?
Mrs. PAINE. No; he did not.
Mr. JENNER. Was the assassination mentioned at all?
Mrs. PAINE. No; it was not.
Mr. JENNER. Was the shooting or murder of Officer Tippit mentioned?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. You have given everything that was said in that conversation as best you are able to recall it at the moment?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right. I then tried the only thing I knew to do, to try to reach Marina. I had heard one of the FBI agents try to find her when he was at my home, had dialed the hotel where the Life people were staying, and asked to be put in contact with Marina and was told, I judge, because he repeated it and wrote it down. Executive Inn. Here I am turning detective in this small way.
Mr. JENNER. You also mentioned now for the first time there were FBI agents in your home?
Mrs. PAINE. That day.
Mr. JENNER. During the course of the day?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. I then dialed--
Mr. JENNER. You shook your head, did you shake your head in the affirmative?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; there were FBI agents in my home during the day. One I recalled made this telephone call. I was waiting to hear from Marina to see if she wanted to talk with me. I had no desire to press her or to attempt to reach her unless she wanted to reach me, but then with this message, I went ahead and dialed the Executive Inn and asked for Tommy Thompson, and Marguerite Oswald answered, and I said I would like to talk to Marina, and she said, "Well, Marina is in the bathroom," and I said to Marguerite that Lee had called me, that he wanted me to deliver a message to Marina, that he wished for her to be at my home, and Marguerite Oswald said, "Well, he is in prison. he don't know the things we are up against, the things we, have to face. What he wants doesn't really matter," which surprised me. And again I asked to speak to Marina and waited until I did speak to her and delivered the same message in Russian to her but there was no further
Mr. JENNER. What response did Marina make to the message that you conveyed to her?
Mrs. PAINE. She said she was very tired and wanted to get to bed, as I recall, and thought it was certainly best to stay there that night.
Mr. JENNER. Is that your best recollection?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. And I certainly agreed with her.
Mr. JENNER. Did she say anything in response to your delivery of Lee Oswald's message about Marina staying with you, of the possibility of her staying with you, say, the next day?
Mrs. PAINE. Nothing of that nature was said. I think I remember that we did discuss whether she had seen Lee during the day, and on that occasion
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it seems to me I learned that she had seen him around noon but I may be wrong about when I learned that. I knew she had seen him.
Mr. JENNER. Either in that conversation or any other conversation with Marina that you may have had, was the subject of Lee Oswald's attitude or
any comments he made mentioned?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Nobody reported to you anything about any conversation they might or did have with Lee Oswald either on the 22d or 23d or even on the 24th of November 1963?
Mrs. PAINE. No. I am of the impression I again tried the home telephone of John Abt on Sunday morning, but I am not certain, and there was no answer. That I certainly remember.
Mr. McCLOY. Did you ever reach Abt?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever attempt to report to Lee Oswald that you had been unable to reach Mr. Abt?
Mrs. PAINE. Not unless such transpired in our 9:30 conversation Saturday evening, but I made no effort to call the police station itself.
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me?
Mrs. PAINE. I made no effort to call the police station.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have at anytime any further conversations with Lee Oswald?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Other than what you have now related?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. McCLOY. Did you have any impression as to why he wanted Marina to come back with you? Was it in order to make her available for telephone calls from him or what?
Mrs. PAINE. What is distinctly my impression is that he thought she should be available. That it was she wasn't where he could find her that irritated him rather than that he thought this was the best place for her.
Representative FORD. Did you know of Mr. Abt or was this just--
Mrs. PAINE. I had never heard of Mr. Abt before.
Representative FORD. Never heard of him?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Senator COOPER. Did Marguerite Oswald explain any further, in the statement you said she made, about having too many obstacles or having obstacles or having troubles?
Mrs. PAINE. Are you referring to the statement on Friday night when she was at my home?
Senator COOPER. No. I think you said a few minutes ago when she went to the hotel you called her and told her what Lee Oswald had told you to tell Marina.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Senator COOPER. I think you said she said something about--
Mrs. PAINE. "Well, he doesn't understand the things we are up against or things of this nature." What I remember most clearly is that she didn't seem to care whether he was told the truth or not.
Mr. JENNER. What?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, that is perhaps a further statement, told the truth about--had it seemed to me a lack of respect on her part. She didn't care what his wishes were in the situation, in other words. And this sticks in my mind.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have any conversation with Robert Oswald on the 22d, subsequent to the time that you met him when he first come to the police station?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Did you on the 23d of November?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. The 24th?
Mrs. PAINE. I believe the only other time I saw Robert was some 3 weeks or more later when he came with two other people to pick up the rest of Marina's things.
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Mr. JENNER. Then from the 22d of November until he came sometime in December you had no conversation with him and you had not seen him?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. You had no contact at all with him?
Mrs. PAINE. That is my best recollection. Marina called me around noon on Sunday, the 24th. She said she was with the police, and, of course, this was said in Russian; I don't know whether she meant Secret Service or Irving Police or Dallas Police or what sort, but official. Her husband had already been shot at this time, so it was just after. He had been shot and I had the television on and I knew that.
Representative FORD. Did she know it?
Mrs. PAINE. I am certain she did. What makes me certain I can't recall definitely. I felt that she was confining herself in her conversation to the things she just had to say.
Senator COOPER. What did she say?
Mrs. PAINE. She was directing me how to find certain things she needed to have. A winter coat, things for the baby, a little purse with some money in it that she left either on top of the dresser or in a drawer in. the bedroom where they had stayed.
Mr. JENNER. Did she sound less than cordial--
Mrs. PAINE. Oh, no, she sounded, as I recall it, as a call from a woman who was doing her best to simply achieve the things she had to do but was under a tremendous strain.
Mr. JENNER. Was any mention made of the death of her husband?
Mrs. PAINE. He was not yet dead, he had been shot but he was not yet dead.
Mr. JENNER. Was any mention made between you in this conversation of the fact that Lee Oswald had been shot?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall such.
Mr. JENNER. You didn't mention it?
Mrs. PAINE. I did not tell her; no.
Mr. JENNER. Did you--it might be natural that you would express sympathy. Did you mention the subject at all, sympathetical or otherwise?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall mentioning the subject and as I say, I have this distinct feeling that she knew, and I knew she knew but what caused that, I can't identify.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have the feeling, if I may use some vernacular, that she was "under wraps" or rather she was bereft and just seeking to do
Mrs. PAINE. I had no feeling she was restraining herself from saying any particular things.
Mr. JENNER. Was under restraint?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. From some outside source?
Mrs. PAINE. I had no such feeling.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mrs. PAINE. I then, well, I should say there were one or two officers from the Irving Police Department there who were waiting to take the things that she directed--
Mr. JENNER. The police officers had already arrived at your home?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I guess I remembered it as virtually simultaneous. I might fill in, whether it is important to your inquiry or not, the moment the television announced that Lee Oswald had been shot, an Irving Police patrol car that had been going by my house and had hesitated in front, stopped and the officer got out carrying a rifle and came into my house, closed the curtains and said he was here to protect me. I later learned that he thought Mrs. Oswald, Marina Oswald, was in the house, and he had been directed by his car radio to come in, and he then closed all the blinds and peered out. And it was in the midst of this time that Marina called, so you see the officers were there already on other business.
Mr. JENNER. The officer was in your home when you talked with Marina?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; when Marina made the call.
Mr. JENNER. Did you say anything to the officers that Marina had called when you finished that conversation?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
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Mr. JENNER. You told them?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you tell them anything of the substance of the call?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; that I was to get some things and I think they had the same information separately a different way from a car radio or something at the same time, which was to put some things together to take to her. I did then pack one or two, or even three of the suit cases we talked about yesterday with baby things.
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, Mrs. Paine. You keep referring to one or two or three. Were there as many as three?
Mrs. PAINE. I think there were as many as three, including a very small, you night say, cosmetic case, only more, not as fancy as that. This was in her room, and I recall looking in it and seeing a family album of photographs and thinking this had better be in her hands, and included that along with clothes. I sent a child's toy, some things that I thought might be helpful to her in keeping her children happy as well as the individual items she had asked for specifically.
Mr. McCLOY. Did you sense any note of estrangement at all between you and Marina when she telephoned you
Mrs. PAINE. No; the situation was strained.
Mr. McCLOY. Strained because she hadn't reappeared, you mean?
Mrs. PAINE. No; because her husband had been shot.
Mr. McCLOY. No; I meant in your conversation with her was there any indication of any coolness between you?
Mrs. PAINE. No; none I detected.
Mr. JENNER. Had you noticed any when you were in the police station?
Mrs. PAINE. Oh, no.
Mr. JENNER. On the previous day?
Mrs. PAINE. Oh, no.
Mr. JENNER. None at all. So that up to the moment of this telephone conversation and after you finished you had no feeling there was any estrangement, any coolness, any change in attitude on the part of Marina toward you as a person?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. McCLOY. Have you felt any evidence of that since?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; and that has several parts to it and I could easily go into it now.
Mr. JENNER. I was going to ask her some general questions and Senator Cooper asked me if I would permit her just to go through the day as she has without, with a minimum of, interruptions so that you and he might, and Representative Ford, might ask some general questions before you left, so that is what I have done.
Mr. McCLOY. Have you completed your report?
Mrs. PAINE. That brings us to the 24th so that all else is really quite post the assassination.
Mr. McCLOY. There is one thing I would like to ask before I go, if I may, and that is your husband testified that several times he had moved this blanket when it was in the garage. Can you fix the date when he was in your house and working in the garage so that he was compelled to move the blanket? When did he come to
Mrs. PAINE. He normally came on Friday evening. He would sometimes come on a Sunday afternoon, and either of those times could have been times that he had worked in the garage.
Mr. McCLOY. That was all through September, October?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; September, October; yes.
Mr. McCLOY. But when he had been working there he never mentioned to you any--about the existence of this blanket, package which he had been compelled to move?
Mrs. PAINE. No. That didn't come up until after the assassination.
Mr. McCLOY. It didn't come up until after the assassination.
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, you are seeking to refresh your recollection from what document, please?
Mrs. PAINE. I am looking at a calendar to see if there is anyway that I can tell when Michael was in the house.
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Mr. JENNER. That is Commission exhibit number what?
Mrs. PAINE. 401, But it has not helped me in refreshing my memory.
Mr. McCLOY. Did you have contacts with the FBI and if so what were they before the assassination?
Mrs. PAINE. An FBI agent was out, I have learned since, on November 1.
I made no note of the day for myself. Sat down and talked in a relaxed way and for sometime in my living room. He said that the FBI liked to make it plain to people who have been in this country sometime, immigrated from an iron curtain country if they were experiencing any blackmail pressure from their home country, that they were welcome, and invited to discuss it with the FBI if they so choose.
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, Marina was present?
Mrs. PAINE. Marina was present.
Mr. JENNER. Did she overhear?
Mrs. PAINE. I am not certain--I tried to translate some of this conversation, I am not certain how good my translation was or how well I conveyed it, or even if I conveyed it to her.
Mr. JENNER. But you do recall translating some of the conversation to her?
Mrs. PAINE. I do recall translating some of the conversation indeed.
Mr. JENNER. Were you at times asked to address Marina to convey something that the FBI agent asked you to convey to her and then to translate in the reverse to him?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall anything as formal as that; no. The agent and I conversed some in English. He said, for instance, that, well he was interested in knowing if Lee Oswald lived here. I told him he did not, that he had a room in town; he asked if I knew where the room was and I said I did not. He asked if he was working and I said yes, and that he was working at the Texas School Book Depository. I haven't gone over any of this yet, it must have been in conversation with you.
Mr. JENNER. You testified to this yesterday afternoon?
Mrs. PAINE. I thought I did. It sounds familiar.
Mr. McCLOY. I just wanted to fix for my own benefit the number of times you saw FBI agents prior to the assassination in the company of Marina.
Mr. JENNER. There was a succeeding date?
Mrs. PAINE. There was a succeeding date which again I have been told by the FBI was November 5, the first time.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall it was a few days after the first man came?
Mrs. PAINE. I recall--
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall it was in your home?
Mrs. PAINE. I recall it was in the early part of the week.
Mr. JENNER. Did the same gentleman call?
Mrs. PAINE. The same gentleman. He had someone else along.
Mr. JENNER. That was Mr. Hosty, the gentleman whom you now have in mind?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I now know his name as Hosty.
Mr. McCLOY. From that you knew that the FBI was still interested in the activity of Oswald?
Mrs. PAINE. Oh, indeed.
Mr. McCLOY. That is what I want to bring out. I think that is all I have, the questions I have.
Are you going to take up later this estrangement as to how it developed?
Mr. JENNER. Yes; I shall do that this afternoon. Representative Ford has afforded me a list of subjects upon which to make inquiry and I will do so this afternoon. Perhaps Representative Ford and Senator Cooper, you would have some questions of this lady before we adjourn for the luncheon period?
Senator COOPER. Are you going to continue this afternoon?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Senator COOPER. I will postpone mine until this afternoon. I think Mr. McCloy and Congressman Ford have to go.
Representative FORD. Mr. Jenner, I will give you these questions and use those, if any, that are other than what you planned to use yourself. I am a little interested and I would like to hear you tell it, if I could, Mrs. Paine, how much did you know about the finances of Lee and Marina?
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Mrs. PAINE. It seemed to me they lived on a very small budget. In March of the year, at either the first or second visit with her, she told me she lived :on something under, around $200 a month and this was more than they had been, because they had just finished paying a debt that they had incurred for their passage to this country and they were feeling rich on $200 a month, and
I could see she was a good planner in what she bought. I could see they seldom, if ever, bought clothes for themselves or even for June. In the fall then Lee never volunteered or gave any money for the cost of her being at my house. He did on one occasion buy a few things at the grocery store for, at Marina's request, which he paid for, and on another occasion I was aware that he had given her some money to buy shoes. Did I mention this previously?
Representative FORD. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Yesterday afternoon you did; yes.
Representative FORD. But even after he gained employment at the Texas School Book Depository and was being paid he never gave her any money for her to contribute to you?
Mrs. PAINE. No: he did not.
Representative FORD. Did Marina ever express any concern about this?
Mrs. PAINE. Periodically she expressed her embarrassment at having to receive always from me. I tried to convince her how useful and helpful it was to me to have her conversation, but I never felt I had convinced her of that. I would have to say I am guessing that she hoped Lee would contribute. It would have been like her to think that he should.
Mr. JENNER. You gather that from the fact that she did raise the subject occasionally?
Mrs. PAINE. Just from the fact that she raised her embarrassment? Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Representative FORD. I think that is all now. Mr. Jenner, you can use those to supplement or as you see fit during the interrogation this afternoon. Thank you.
Mr. McCLOY. I have no more questions.
I would like to say. this though, perhaps, Mrs. Paine, that you understand we are not trying to punish anybody here. We are not.
Mrs. PAINE. I do understand.
Mr. McCLOY. This is not a court of law. We are trying to get at the facts.
Anything that you can contribute before you complete your testimony which would help us to get the facts we would like to receive, whether it be in the form of hunches or anything that you have, and you must not, I suggest that you don't, assume that merely because we haven't examined you on a particular fact that if there is anything that you do have in mind that you advance it and volunteer it for the benefit of the further security of the country.
Mrs. PAINE. I have tried very hard to think of the things that I thought would be useful to you, especially as we had so little time in advance of testifying to help me recall in thinking about it.
Mr. JENNER. May I say, Mr. McCloy, that Mrs. Paine yesterday and the day before, when I had an opportunity to talk with her, she did volunteer several matters of which we had no notice whatsoever. For example, the telephone calls by Lee Harvey Oswald to her, we had not known of that. And the existence of the curtain rods.
Mr. McCLOY. Anything that is in the background that you have--
Mrs. PAINE. I did want to amend my testimony of yesterday in one small particular. I spoke, indeed, during the testimony I recalled this incident of Lee having gotten into my car, started it, and did the driving from my home to the parking lot where we practiced, pretty much over my objection in a sense but I did not object strongly enough. I said this was about three blocks. That would appear that it was walking distance. It was longer than that.
If you have someone out there in time, why I could go with the person to show just exactly what the distance was.
Representative FORD. What was his reaction when you objected? First, was your objection just oral, was it strong, was it admonition, of what kind?
Mrs. PAINE. I felt that, and this is what you are getting at too and I think something we haven't yet discussed, is the matter of what kind of person this
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was or how I reacted to the kind of person he was. He seemed to me prickly, all sharp points and edgy, and I wished he could be more relaxed and more at ease. I didn't want to confront him with a statement of, "Lee, I didn't want you to start this car and take it yourself", so I simply said, "my father is an insurance man and he certainly would not want me to be permitting you to drive in the street when you don't even have a learner's permit yet, and I will certainly drive it home."
From the time I had first known him he had changed in his attitude toward me, I felt. I felt in the spring he expected to be disliked, that he carried a shell of proud disdain around him to protect himself from human contact, and this was falling away from him at my home.
Mr. JENNER. In the fall you mean?
Mrs. PAINE. In the fall of the year, in October and November. He began to appear much more at ease, and as if he had some confidence in how he would be treated. It is a whole subject really.
Representative FORD. Can you give us a little more information on what you said to him and what he, or how he responded in this incident involving the car?
Mrs. PAINE. I would say he clearly wanted to do the driving and to drive in the street. I felt that this, my not permitting him to, was one of the things that was helping to get him to the office where he could get a learner's permit, and he was eager to be driving, and to learn to drive on the street.
Representative FORD. Did he just slough off, so to speak, your admonition that he shouldn't drive?
Mrs. PAINE. I didn't make it a requirement that he stop right there so he didn't have to stop.
Representative FORD. You just suggested it might be better?
Mrs. PAINE. I just made it clear I was uncomfortable and on the way home I would drive.
Mr. McCLOY. There is one thing we haven't had testimony about, I imagine, except implicitly.
It is alleged that Lee possessed a .38 caliber revolver. Do you, in the light of hindsight, perhaps, do you have any feeling now that he was secreting that weapon on your premises?
Mrs. PAINE. I had no idea that it was there or ever was there.
Mr. McCLOY. Nothing now makes you feel that it was there other than the finding of the rifle?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Representative FORD. Thank you very much, Mrs. Paine.
Senator COOPER. The Commission will recess until 2 o'clock today.
(Whereupon, at 12:20 p.m., the Commission recessed.)
Afternoon Session
TESTIMONY OF RUTH HYDE PAINE RESUMED
The President's Commission reconvened at 2 p.m.
The CHAIRMAN. We will start now. We will continue until Senator Cooper comes and then he will preside the rest of the afternoon. I will be busy with Mr. Rankin some of the time.
Mr. JENNER. Thank you, Mr. Chief Justice.
Mrs. Paine, this morning I was seeking to qualify and introduce in evidence Commission Exhibit 425, which, at the time I had it in my hand, consisted of one page. You called my attention to the fact that it was a letter dated October 14, 1963, to your mother by you in your handwriting, but that you had only given me the first page or sheet, which consists front and reverse of two pages. Then you tendered me the second page or sheet, and indicated some reluctance about the need for its use in this connection.
During the noon recess you have afforded me the possession of the second page, and my recollection is you have voiced no objection to its introduction in evidence.
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Mrs. PAINE. I have no objection to its introduction. It refers just to personal matters, but if you don't have it, you will have to wonder what it is. It is better not to wonder.
Mr. JENNER. Yes. And it does give the full context of the really pertinent statements that you made in the first two pages and to which you made allusion yesterday in your testimony.
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. I direct your attention to the second sheet, the first of which is numbered three and the reverse side numbered four. Is the handwriting on both of those sheets yours?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes it is.
Mr. JENNER. And it is the third and fourth pages of the letter to which you
referred yesterday and again this morning, Commission Exhibit No. 425?
Mrs. PAINE. It is.
Mr. JENNER. And that page is in the same condition now as when--that is pages three and four, as when--you dispatched the entire letter to your mother?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chief Justice, I offer Commission Exhibit No. 425 in evidence. It has been heretofore marked.
The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.
(Commission Exhibit No. 425 was marked and received in evidence.)
Mr. JENNER. There have been marked as Commission's exhibits in this series 451 and 453 to 456, a series of five colored photographs purporting to be photographs of one Curtis LaVerne Crafard, taken on the 28th day of November 1963.
Mrs. Paine would you be good enough to look at each of those, and after you have looked at them, I wish to ask you a question.
Mrs. PAINE. I have looked at them all.
Mr. JENNER. Calling on your recollection of the physiognomy and appearance of Lee Oswald, do you detect a resemblance between the man depicted in those
photographs, the exhibit numbers of which I have given, and Lee Oswald?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I do.
Mr. JENNER. To the best of your present recollection, do you recall whether you
have ever seen the person whose features are reflected on those photographs?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I have not seen him.
The CHAIRMAN. May I see those, please?
Mrs. PAINE. Should I say that one picture in particular struck me as looking similar to Lee?
Mr. JENNER. Yes. When the Chief Justice has concluded his examination I will have you pick out that one in particular. Thank you, sir. When you select it will you give the exhibit number which appears on the reverse side?
Mrs. PAINE. Exhibit No. 453. Clearly the shoulders are broader than with Lee, but it is a quality about the face that recalls Oswald to my mind.
Mr. JENNER. And the jacket?
Mrs. PAINE. And the attire.
Mr. JENNER. The attire that is shown on the exhibit which is the first one you have before you, what is the number of that?
Mrs. PAINE. Exhibit 451.
Mr. JENNER. I asked you to describe Lee Oswald, his general attire. Did he normally wear a zipper jacket of the character shown on that exhibit?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And referring to the other photographs, you say that man's attire is similar to that Lee Oswald normally effected and employed.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. It certainly is.
Mr. JENNER. I offer Commission Exhibits Nos. 451 and 453 through 456.
The CHAIRMAN. They may be admitted.
(Commission Exhibits Nos. 451 and 453 through 465 were received in evidence. )
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, the Commissioners this morning, had especially directed questions to you evidencing their interest in FBI interviews.
The CHAIRMAN. Senator, will you now continue to preside please, so I will be free to work with Mr. Rankin a little this afternoon. I will remain here though for a while.
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Senator COOPER. Thank you.
Mr. JENNER: I gather the first interview by any FBI agent to your knowledge was on the first day of November 1963?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; and I don't really think interview is a fully accurate word.
Mr. JENNER. What word would you like to use?
Mrs. PAINE. I felt that the agent stopped to see whether the Oswalds, either Mrs. Oswald or Mr., were living there, and to make the acquaintance of me. He said that he had talked with my immediate neighbor, Mrs. Roberts, the previous time.
Mr. JENNER. The pronoun you are using refers to the FBI agent.
Mrs. PAINE. He, the FBI agent.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. PAINE. Said that he had inquired of my next door neighbor, Mrs. Roberts, whether the Oswalds lived here, and she had said that she didn't know the last name but knew that the wife of the family was living there, and that there had just been a baby girl born, and that the husband came out some week ends.
Mr. JENNER. Is this what the agent told you?
Mrs. PAINE. No, the neighbor told me.
Mr. JENNER. I see. All right.
Mrs. PAINE. And I judged he wanted to find out directly.
Mr. JENNER. Had you finished?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Have you subsequently learned the name of the gentleman who interviewed you or conversed with you?
Mrs. PAINE. I have subsequently learned his name, yes. It was James Hosty.
The CHAIRMAN. What was the name?
Mrs. PAINE. James Hosty, H-O-S-T-Y.
Mr. JENNER. I don't wish you to give that full interview again because you touched on it yesterday and again at greater length this morning. But I do wish to ask you with respect to that interview, did you give Agent Hosty the telephone numbers that you had received from Lee Oswald as to where he might be reached in Dallas?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I didn't. He asked me if I knew where Lee lived. I did think of these phone numbers, but
Mr. JENNER. During the course of the.
Mrs. PAINE. Or later.
Mr. JENNER. Of the interview?
Mrs. PAINE. At least between that time and the time he came again, but I have been impressed with what I have now concluded was a mistaken impression I have which effected my behavior; namely, that the FBI was in possession of a great deal of information, or so I thought, and certainly would find it very easy to find out where Lee Oswald was living. I really didn't believe they didn't know or needed to find out from me. This is a feeling stemming from my understanding of the difficulties they faced working in a free society. I would behave quite differently now, but I have learned a lot from this particular experience.
Mr. JENNER. Now was there a subsequent interview?
Mrs. PAINE. There was an interview a few days later, yes, interview to the extent that he came to the door, walked in the door. We didn't as much as sit down. But he asked again about an address. I had none. I did say that I expected
Mr. JENNER. An address as to where Lee resided?
Mrs. PAINE. In town where he resided. I did say that I expected that when Marina moved into an apartment with Lee again, as we all thought would occur, that I would be in contact with her, and that I would be perfectly Willing to give him information as to that address when I had such, but that my contact was with her and therefore through that way I would have the address.
Mr. JENNER. Were you again interviewed by telephone or otherwise by any FBI agent prior to November 22, 1963.
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Mrs. PAINE. I have mentioned two times.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. PAINE. And that was all.
Mr. JENNER. That was all. So up to the time of the assassination, the only interviews with the FBI to your knowledge were on the first?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. You will recall your testimony yesterday, Mrs. Paine, of the incident in which a telephone call was made by you at the request of Marina using the telephone number that has been left with you by Lee Oswald, and your inability to locate him, in fact the person who answered the telephone stated that there was no Lee Oswald living there. Do you recall your testimony on that score?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you report that to the FBI?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I did not.
Mr. JENNER. You also recall your testimony with respect to the draft of the proposed letter which I think is before you, and that is Commission exhibit number?
Mrs. PAINE. 130.
Mr. JENNER. Did you call the FBI and advise them of that incident?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I did not.
Mr. JENNER. And without seeking to have you repeat your testimony, were your reasons for not doing so the same as the one that you gave when I asked you whether you had given Agent Hosty the telephone number?
Mrs. PAINE. No; not identical. Certainly I didn't think that they had any information of such a letter, whereas I did think they knew where he lived or could easily find out, and of course they could also come to the house and
see him at my house as he came on weekends.
Mr. JENNER. You did say to the FBI?
Mrs. PAINE. I did.
Mr. JENNER. That he would be at your home on weekends.
Mrs. PAINE. And I judged by the fact they didn't come that this was not someone they were terribly worried about talking to immediately. Both this letter, and the telephone conversation really, the one that followed it, where Marina reported to me that he was using a different name, were something new and different in the situation that made me feel this was a man I hadn't accurately perceived before.
I have said my impression in reading the letter was--I have said something similar to this that of a small boy wanting to get in good with the boys, trying to use words that he thought would please. I didn't know to whom he addressed himself, but it struck me as something out of Pravda in his terminology. And I knew, as I have testified, that several of the statements in it were flatly false, and I wondered about the rest, and then when I heard that he was using a different name, that again was indication of a great disregard for truth on the part of Lee Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. Now what time of day did the interview on November 1 take place?
Mrs. PAINE. Afternoon.
Mr. JENNER. Late?
Mrs. PAINE. Middle of the afternoon. My memory is there were no children around which means it was nap time.
Mr. JENNER. It couldn't have been along about 5 o'clock in the afternoon?
Mrs. PAINE. It was a Friday, wasn't it?
Mr. JENNER. Yes, it was.
Mrs. PAINE. And he probably came out that Friday.
Mr. JENNER. You were just telling the agent, you had told the agent, had you not, that he came on weekends.
Mrs. PAINE. I did.
Mr. JENNER. And he arrived on Fridays?
Mrs. PAINE. I did.
Mr. JENNER. And this was a Friday?
Mrs. PAINE. It was, and you will recall yesterday----
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Mr. JENNER. And you did tell the agent that?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. It had to have been that session. I know I certainly told him, and it had to have been that time because the second meeting was very brief and had only to do with the address.
Mr. JENNER. And that was not on a Friday?
Mrs. PAINE. No; it was not.
Mr. JENNER. Was anything said about the agent remaining because Lee Oswald would be along, he was expected?
Mrs. PAINE. No. May I interject here to recall to your mind that as I looked through my calendar trying to find if there was any time, any weekend other than the weekend of October 12, that Lee arrived on a Saturday instead of a Friday, it had to be that weekend by deduction. And I don't recall whether he arrived that Friday evening.
I do recall when he arrived we told him about this meeting and I gave him the piece of paper on which I had written Mr. Hosty's name and the normal telephone number for the FBI in Dallas.
Mr. JENNER. But you recall no conversation. May I suggest this to you as possibly refreshing your recollection. That on that Friday afternoon, which I may say to you now, Mrs. Paine, is reported by Agent Hosty as having taken place on November 1, and he has made his report accordingly, was there any discussion of a suggestion that Lee Oswald would be out that weekend, that is either that you told him he would not be or that he would be, that you would expect him?
Mrs. PAINE. My recollection is that I said he came out here on weekends and he could be seen then.
Mr. JENNER. Go ahead.
Mrs. PAINE. And I have no recollection of ever thinking he was not going to come that weekend.
Mr. JENNER. You have also testified that you were also advised in advance when he was coming?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. He asked permission. So if he were coming on the 1st of November, that very day, you would have been advised in advance that he as coming, would you not, according to your testimony.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I would think so.
Mr. JENNER. But you don't recall saying anything to Agent Hosty that he was coming that evening, at least that you expected him to be there.
Mrs. PAINE. I may have. I don't specifically recall.
Mr. JENNER. But you do have a recollection that you told him at least generally that Lee Oswald came to your home on weekends?
Mrs. PAINE. I feel certain of that.
Mr. JENNER. In any event, Agent Hosty did not remain?
Mrs. PAINE. He did not remain left. It was earlier in the afternoon.
Mr. JENNER. You are inclined to think the interview took place earlier in the afternoon, that is prior to 5 o'clock?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; more likely 2 to 3 or 3:30.
Mr. JENNER. During the slumber hours of your children?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Now you are certain in your own mind that you had no interview or no FBI agent interviewed you prior to November 1?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. And if an FBI agent did interview you, you were not aware that you were being interviewed?
Mrs. PAINE. That is absolutely correct.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have a recollection that on October 29, that would be 2 days before the Friday session that you have testified about, that some sales person or purporting to be a sales person or a drummer or somebody came to your door and made some inquiries of you about the Oswalds?
Mrs. PAINE. October 29 is a Tuesday. I don't recall any such encounter. Written on my calendar is "Dal" for Dallas "Junie" meaning we went to a clinic in Dallas in the morning. It doesn't say about the rest of the day.
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Mr. JENNER. Now when you reported to Lee Oswald the name of the agent and the telephone number, you put that on a slip of paper.
Mrs. PAINE. I did.
Mr. JENNER. And handed the slip of paper to him?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did.
Mr. JENNER. Was there any conversation between you then as to FBI agents having at any time prior thereto interviewed Lee Oswald.
Mrs. PAINE. There may have been. I am certainly clear that I was told probably by Marina that he had been interviewed, or by both of them, that he had been interviewed in Fort Worth when they first returned from the Soviet Union. This I knew before the time of the assassination.
Mr. JENNER. Did Marina say whether she had been interviewed in Fort Worth?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. This was only that Lee Oswald had been interviewed at Fort Worth?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. But you recall no conversation in which either Lee or Marina said or intimated to you that they had, either of them had been interviewed either in New Orleans or in Dallas.
Mrs. PAINE. Nothing was mentioned of having been interviewed in New Orleans or Dallas.
Mr. JENNER. You made some reference yesterday, and I want to keep it in context, to the license number of the FBI agent.
Mrs. PAINE. Not in testimony. Did I?
Mr. JENNER. I thought you had.
Mrs. PAINE. Perhaps.
Mr. JENNER. It would be well if we went into that. Would you please recite what that incident was?
Mrs. PAINE. I am confused by the question.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall the matter of the taking of the agent's license number from his automobile?
Mrs. PAINE. I was told by Agent Hosty well after the assassination that they had found in Oswald's room in Dallas a slip of paper which included not only Hosty's name and the telephone number of the FBI in Dallas, but also the license plate number with one letter incorrect, one number incorrect, of the car that Hosty had driven out. This was the first I had heard anything about their having been a license plate.
Mr. JENNER. You did not take
Mrs. PAINE. Number taken down.
Mr. JENNER. You did not take the number down and place it on that piece of paper?
Mrs. PAINE. I did not.
Mr. JENNER. Or give it to Lee Harvey Oswald or to Marina?
Mrs. PAINE. I did not. I was never at any time interested in the license plate number. I wondered why anyone else would have been.
Mr. JENNER. In any event, the first you heard of the license number was after the assassination?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Under the circumstances you have now related?
Mrs. PAINE. I might describe the second meeting with Mr. Hosty a little more in detail.
Mr. JENNER. That is November 1?
Mrs. PAINE. That is the only way I can guess as to how this license plate number was in Oswald's room.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mrs. PAINE. Hosty and I, and a second agent was with him, I don't know the name, stood at the door of my home and talked briefly, as I have already described, about the address of Oswald in Dallas. Marina was in her room feeding the baby, or busy some way. She came in just as Hosty and I were closing the conversation, and I must say we were both surprised at her entering.
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He then took his leave immediately, and as he has told me later, drove to the end of my street which curves and then drove back down Fifth Street.
Mr. JENNER. Now you are reporting something agent Hosty has told you?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Were you aware of the fact that he drove to the end of the street?
Mrs. PAINE. Not at that time, no. I was aware that he had parked his car out in front of my house. My best judgment is that the license plate was not visible, however, while it was parked; not visible from my house.
Mr. JENNER. Did you see the car?
Mrs. PAINE. I saw the car.
Mr. JENNER. Parked?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. I noticed it particularly. Because the first time he had come on the 1st of November, he had parked down the street, and he made reference to the fact that they don't like to draw attention for the neighborhood to any interviews that they make, and in fact my neighbor also commented when she had talked with him a few days previously that his car was parked down the street and wasn't in front of my house. So I noticed the change that he had parked directly in front. But to the best of my recollection, in back
of the Oldsmobile of my husband's.
Mr. JENNER. Did you attempt to look to see what his license number was?
Mrs. PAINE. What?
Mr. JENNER. Did you attempt to look at his automobile to see what the license number was?
Mrs. PAINE. No; nor could I have seen it from my house without my glasses on. I am nearsighted, and I was not wearing them.
Mr. JENNER. But the license plate would have been visible to anybody walking down the street or who desired?
Mrs. PAINE. Walking down the street, yes.
Mr. JENNER. Or looking out your garage.
Mrs. PAINE. I don't think so, because to the best of my recollection, an Oldsmobile that my husband bought was also in front of the house, so that the cars would have been close at the bumpers.
Mr. JENNER. So the license plates would have been screened by the Oldsmobile?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Have you given us all you have in mind with respect to the incidents?
Mrs. PAINE. There is one other thing which is a little different, and I had forgotten it but it is recalled by our conversation. I have already said that I said to Agent Hoary that if in the future Marina and Lee are living together, and I know, or I have correspondence with them I would live him his address if he wished it. Then it was the next day or that evening or sometime shortly thereafter Marina said to me while we were doing dishes that she felt their address was their business. Now my understanding is she doesn't understand English well. The word in Russian for address is "adres," and she made it plain that this was a matter of privacy for them. This surprised me. She had never spoken in this way to me before, and I didn't see that it made any difference.
Mr. JENNER. Did this arise out of, or in connection with, or was it stimulated, by any discussion between the two of you of the visit of Agent Hosty?
Mrs. PAINE. So far as I could see, it arose separately.
Mr. JENNER. So far as you can recall?
Mrs. PAINE. As far as I can recall.
Mr. JENNER. Did you make any effort to obtain Lee Oswald's address so that you could give it to the FBI?
Mrs. PAINE. No. As I have testified, I really thought they had it.
Mr. JENNER. When you made the telephone call to Lee Oswald and learned he apparently was living under an alias, and certainly in that weekend immediately preceding the assassination when the argument occurred between Marina and Lee Oswald on which he upbraided her for having made the call, you still weren't activated to call the FBI and tell them that he was living under an assumed name, is that true?
Mrs. PAINE. That is true. I did expect to give this copy which I had made
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of his "Dear Sirs," letter which you have marked Commission Exhibit 103 to the FBI agent at the next meeting.
Mr. JENNER. At the time he called if he did call?
Mrs. PAINE. I thought he would.
Mr. JENNER. During the interview on November 1, you have testified that Marina was present some of the time.
Mrs. PAINE. She was present virtually all of that time.
Mr. JENNER. All of the time?
Mrs. PAINE. And virtually none of the next time.
Mr. JENNER. Virtually none.
Mrs. PAINE. Just came in at the end, on the 5th.
Mr. JENNER. Was she out in the yard? Did you get that impression any time during that second interview?
Mrs. PAINE. No; she had to have been in her room the entire time.
Mr. JENNER. Are you firm, reasonably firm that Marina, even if she desired to learn of the license number on Agent Hosty's car, that she could not have seen or detected it while remaining in the house?
Mrs. PAINE. She might possibly--oh, I wouldn't say that. It is conceivable, depending on where it was parked, it is conceivable that she could have seen it from the bedroom window.
Mr. JENNER. You are holding up exhibit number?
Mrs. PAINE. 430.
Mr. JENNER. And you are pointing to what on that exhibit?
Mrs. PAINE. The window of the bedroom which she occupied, which is the southeast bedroom of my house, looks directly out to where I thought the car
was parked. From that position, if I am correct about where the car was parked, she couldn't have seen the license plate, but she could have seen it if as Agent Hosty described to me later she saw it while the car was moving along the street.
Mr. JENNER. When he pulled away?
Mrs. PAINE. When he pulled away and then he came back and went the other way.
Mr. JENNER. So it is possible that she may have seen the license?
Mrs. PAINE. It is possible.
Mr. JENNER. This date that you are now talking about when he parked the car in front of your house, that was November 5?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, it was.
Mr. JENNER. Whereas on November 1, he parked the car down the street.
Mrs. PAINE. That is right. I might add a little more detail here if you want it. Marina and I talked about whether to tell Lee that the FBI had been out a second time, and the 5th was a Tuesday. We didn't see Lee until the 8th. She said to me that he had been upset by the FBI's coming out and inquiring about him, and he felt it was interference with his family. And I said there is no reason for him to be upset, or I think conveyed that idea. But the question of whether to tell him was settled by Marina who told him on Friday evening, the 8th, ,and then Lee inquired of me about that meeting, and he said--I don't think I have yet said for the record--he said to me then he felt the FBI was inhibiting his activities. This is what he said. Has this been said?
Mr. JENNER. Not yet.
Mrs. PAINE. All right, I have said it. I said to him "Don't be worried about it. You have your rights to your views, whether they are popular or not." But I could see that he didn't take that view but rather was seriously bothered by their having come out and inquired about him. At this time or another, I don't recall certainly, I asked whether he was worried about losing his job, and he was.
Mr. JENNER. Did he say so, Mrs. Paine?
Mrs. PAINE. I recall particularly a telephone conversation with him. On one of those in which he called out to talk to Marina, I judge, and perhaps she was busy still changing a baby and I talked. I don't recall the exact circumstances but I do recall it, and I said to him if his views, not any references now to the FBI or their interest in him, but if his political views were interfering with his ability to hold a job, that this might be a matter of interest to the
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American Civil Liberties Union, that he should in our country have a right to unpopular views or any other kind.
This I believe was after he had been to an American Civil Liberties Union meeting with my husband, that meeting having been October
Mr. JENNER. What was his response?
Mrs. PAINE. He was pleased, I felt. He felt in a sense reassured. And indeed I think his response was to join, because it was later reported in the press that he had, which makes me think that this telephone conversation was quite close to the time of the assassination.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine--
Mrs. PAINE. I am putting in a lot of guesswork.
Mr. JENNER. Am I interrupting you?
Mrs. PAINE. No. It is just that I wonder if you want me to dredge this deeply into things I cannot be absolutely certain about.
Mr. JENNER. We would like your best recollection. We do hesitate about speculation.
Mrs. PAINE. Indeed.
Mr. JENNER. When we are asking about factual matters. We do ask for your speculation occasionally, but to try to make it quite deliberate when we are asking for that rather than for facts. Have you now stated all that comes to mind with respect to the advice to Lee Oswald of the visit of FBI agents or any discussion with Mr. Oswald at any time while he visited your home during this period in 1963 prior to November 22 with respect to FBI agent visits?
Have you now exhausted your recollection on the subject?
Mrs. PAINE. I think one other thing. Agent Hosty asked me, and I am not certain which time, but more likely the second, since so far as I can recall Marina wasn't present, if I thought this was a mental problem, his words referring to Lee Oswald, and I said I didn't understand the mental processes of anyone who could espouse the Marxist philosophy, but that this was far different from saying he was mentally unstable or unable to conduct himself in normal society.
I did tell Lee that this question had been asked. He gave no reply, but more a scoffing laugh, hardly voiced.
Mr. JENNER. Have you now exhausted your recollection?
Mrs. PAINE. I have clearly exhausted it.
Senator COOPER. Who asked the question?
Mrs. PAINE. Hosty asked the question "Is this a mental problem?"
Senator COOPER. Did you ever hear Oswald express any anger toward either the agents or the FBI, as an agency?
Mrs. PAINE. He expressed distinct irritation that he was being bothered. That is how he looked upon it.
Senator COOPER. You said that you thought he was concerned about its effect upon his job, but did he express any emotion other than that?
Mrs. PAINE. And he was being inhibited in what he wanted to do.
Senator COOPER. Any irritation or anger because they had interviewed?
Mrs. PAINE. In tone of voice, yes.
Senator COOPER. What would it be like?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, irritated. He said, "They are trying to inhibit my activities."
Senator COOPER. Did he swear at all?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Senator COOPER. He used no language.
Mrs. PAINE. No; he didn't.
Senator COOPER. Did he raise the tone of his voice?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Senator COOPER. Did he show
Mrs. PAINE. Nothing more than an edge to his voice I would say.
Senator COOPER. Did he direct it against any individual FBI agent.
Mrs. PAINE. No; he didn't. I have one other recollection that possibly should be put in regarding the conversation with Agent Hosty the first time when Marina was present. We discussed many things, just as you would having coffee in the afternoon with a visitor, and--
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Mr. JENNER. Is this a discussion between you and Marina with the agent present or not present.
Mrs. PAINE. He was present.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mrs. PAINE. Discussion between the three of us.
Mr. JENNER. Thank you.
Mrs. PAINE. And I can't recall certainly who brought it up, but I think Marina asked of Hosty what did he think of Castro, and he said, "Well, he reads what is printed and from the view given in the American newspapers of Castro's activities and intentions, he certainly didn't like those intentions or actions."
And Marina expressed an opinion subsequently, but contrary, that perhaps he was not given much chance by the American press, or that the press was not entirely fair to him. This I translated.
Mr. JENNER. Is that the extent of it? Now have you exhausted your recollection?
Mrs. PAINE. I hope so. I have exhausted myself.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, do you have another question?
Senator COOPER. Not on this subject.
Mr. JENNER. I would like to return to your furnishing of the name and the telephone number of. Agent Hosty. In Commission Exhibit No. 18, which is in evidence, which was Lee Oswald's diary--by the way, may I hand the exhibit to the witness, Chairman?
Senator COOPER. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. This is an address book. In any event it is in evidence as Exhibit No. 18. Have you ever seen that booklet before?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Examine the outside of the booklet. Have you seen this?
Mrs. PAINE. I have never seen this.
Mr. JENNER. You have never seen that in Lee Oswald's possession?
Mrs. PAINE. I have never seen it at all.
Mr. JENNER. There is an entry as follows. Would you help me Mr. Redlich.
Would you read it please?
Mr. REDLICH. "November 1, 1963 FBI agent James P. Hosty."
Mrs. PAINE. Junior?
Mr. REDLICH. Just above the word "Hosty" appears in parentheses "RI 1-1121," and underneath "'James P. Hosty" appears "MU 8605." Underneath that is "1114 Commerce Street Dallas." I would just like to correct upon the record that the phone number originally read is "RI-11211."
Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. What is that phone number?
Mrs. PAINE. That phone number I recognize from my own use of it is to the FBI in Dallas, my use since the assassination.
Mr. JENNER. And the series of numbers rather than phone numbers, series of numbers "MU 8605."
Mrs. PAINE. Is not known to me.
Mr. JENNER. What is the system of license plate numbering and lettering employed in Texas?
Mrs. PAINE. I am not acquainted with any particular system. They use
both letters and numbers.
Mr. JENNER. I call your attention in connection with this entry that it is dated November 1, 1963, and there does appear in it the license number.
Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes.
Mr. JENNER. Your recollection is firm that you didn't furnish it?
Mrs. PAINE. May I point out also that he must have put this down after November 1st, or at least that evening. He could not have written it down with--
Mr. JENNER. It had to be after the fact as you furnished him the name.
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. And the agent's address.
Mrs. PAINE. I would think he could as well have added--you don't want my thinking--this number.
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Mr. JENNER. The reason I call that to your attention, Mrs. Paine, it still does not stimulate your recollection.
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Any differently than before. You did not furnish the license number.
Mrs. PAINE. I certainly did not. To the best of my recollection I did not put down the address either.
Mr. JENNER. Now during the course of that interview of November 5th, did you not say to Agent Hosty that Lee had visited at your home November 2 and 3?
Mrs. PAINE. It is entirely possible, likely.
Mr. JENNER. And in this connection I am at liberty to report to you that Agent Hosty's report is that you did advise him that Oswald had visited at your home on November 2 and November 3. Does that serve to refresh your recollection that you did so advise him?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall that.
Mr. JENNER. Now did you express an opinion to Agent Hosty that Oswald was "an illogical person?"
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, I did, in answer to his question was this a mental problem, as I have just described to you.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; that is all right. And did you also say to Agent Hosty that Oswald himself had "Admitted being a Trotskyite Communist."
Mrs. PAINE. Oh, I doubt seriously I said Trotskyite Communist. I would think Leninist Communist, but I am not certain.
Mr. JENNER. Do you remember making a remark of similar import?
Mrs. PAINE. Reference to Trotsky surprises me. I have come since the assassination to wonder if he had Trotskyite views. I have become interested in what such views are since the assassination.
Mr. JENNER. To the best of your recollection you don't recall making that comment?
Mrs. PAINE. I wouldn't think that I had the knowledge by which to make such a statement even.
Mr. JENNER. Now after this rationalization you have made, Mrs. Paine, it is your recollection that you did not make such a comment?
Mrs. PAINE. I can't recall. What was the second item that I told Hosty he had been out on the second and third? I am just trying to clarify here.
Mr. JENNER. You had told him that Lee Oswald had been at your home November 2 and 3, that you told him that Lee Oswald was an illogical person?
Mrs. PAINE. That is it.
Mr. JENNER. And third, that you told him that Oswald had admitted being a Trotskyite Communist.
Mrs. PAINE. I may have said that. I don't recall.
Mr. JENNER. You may have said the latter.
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall, that is right.
Mr. JENNER. It is possible that you did say it?
Mrs. PAINE. It is possible. I am surprised, however, by the word at that point.
Mr. JENNER. Now do you recall a telephone interview or call by Agent Hosty on the 27th of January 1964? Perhaps I had better put it this way to you.
Do you recall subsequent telephone calls after the assassination that you received from Agent Hosty, that you did receive such telephone calls?
Mrs. PAINE. I did, and visits also, at the house.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall he called you on the 27th of January 1964 and that he inquired whether you had given Lee Oswald the license number of his automobile when he had been at your home? You stated that you had not.
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
I would have thought that was a face to face interview but I don't recall.
Mr. JENNER. But you also told Agent Hosty on that occasion, "However, this license number could have easily been observed by Marina Oswald since her bedroom is located only a short distance from the street where this car would have been parked."
Mrs. PAINE. I doubt I said "easily."
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Mr. JENNER. But you could have said that the license number could have been observed by Marina from her bedroom?
Mrs. PAINE. My recollection of this, that it was not a telephone interview.
Mr. JENNER. Telephone or otherwise, there was an interview of you at which you made that statement, that Marina could have seen the license?
Mrs. PAINE. That Marina could have?
Mr. JENNER. You do recall the incident. You don't recall whether it was at your home or whether it was by telephone?
Mrs. PAINE. I certainly recall talking with Agent Hosty and on at least one occasion about how that license number got in Oswald's possession.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall a telephone interview by an FBI agent Lee, Ivan D. Lee on the 28th of December 1963?
Mrs. PAINE. The name is not familiar to me. A great many FBI agents--
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall an incident in which you reported to an FBI agent that you had just talked with a reporter from the Houston Post?
Mrs. PAINE. Right.
Mr. JENNER. You recall that?
Mrs. PAINE. I do.
Mr. JENNER. Now during the course of that interview, you made reference to a newspaper reporter, did you not?
Mrs. PAINE. I did. His name is Lonny Hudkins.
Mr. JENNER. Did you say that the reporter whom you have now identified had advised you that Lee Harvey Oswald's mother had been working for a party in Forth Worth during September and October 1962 as a practical nurse, and according to the reporter, Mrs. Oswald, mother of Lee Harvey Oswald, advised this party during her employment that her son was doing important anti-subversive work?
Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Would you please relate that incident so we will have the facts insofar as you participated in them stated of record?
Mrs. PAINE. I will. I would not have recalled the date, but I knew it to be toward the end of 1963. I was called on the telephone by Lonny Hudkins, whom I had never met, announced himself as from the Houston Post, said there was a matter of some importance that he wanted to talk with me about, could he come out to the house? And he then indicated the nature of what he wanted to talk about to the extent very accurately reported in what you have just read. I called the FBI really to see if they could advise me in dealing with this man. It struck me as a very unresponsible thing to print, and I wanted to be able to convince Hudkins of that fact. I was hopeful that they might be willing to
make a fiat denial to him, or in some way prevent the confusion that would have been caused by his printing this.
Now shall I go on to tell about the encounter which followed with Mr. Hudkins, and something of that content?
Mr. JENNER. I am a little at a loss. Why don't you start because I can't anticipate.
Mrs. PAINE. Whether it is important?
Mr. JENNER. You haven't related this to me. Are these statements you made to the FBI that you are about to relate?
Mrs. PAINE. If they asked. I don't recall specifically. I certainly recall that the content of the telephone conversation reported there is accurate and is in sum the conversation that then followed with Lonny Hudkins too, except that it doesn't say what I said in the situation.
Mr. JENNER. Did you report to the FBI that Mr. Hudkins had said to you that the primary purpose of seeing you was an effort to get some confirmation if possible of the possibility Oswald was actually working on behalf of the United States Government prior to the assassination?
Mrs. PAINE. I was aware that was his purpose.
Mr. JENNER. That you knew of no such situation, and ventured the opinion to the reporter that the story was wholly unlikely, that you could not imagine anyone having that much confidence in Oswald?
Mrs. PAINE. That is accurate. I went on to say that Mrs. Oswald senior, Mrs. Marguerite Oswald, could well have said to this matron a full year back
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and more that her son was doing important anti-subversive work for the government. This was 1962 he was talking about, but that this was her opinion or what she may have wished to have true. And I did not consider it terribly creditable, and said to him "You don't think you have a story here, do you?"
Mr. JENNER. You also recall
Mrs. PAINE. May I put in another point here?
Mr. JENNER. In connection with this subject matter?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mrs. PAINE. I called and the man to whom I talked, I don't know if it was Lee, or I think it was someone else who answered first, I am not certain at all.
Mr. JENNER. Odum?
Mrs. PAINE. Odum? It certainly was not Odum. I know him. But someone answered the phone and I told this to him, and perhaps it was Lee. He said to me in response to my inquiring "What shall I do, here is this man coming," he said "well you don't know anything of this nature do you?" I said, "No".
Then anything you might have to say is sheer conjecture on the subject?"
"Yes."
"Then you should certainly make that plain in talking with him."
Mr. JENNER. Did you do so?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I certainly did. And I felt as though I really shouldn't have bothered them. This was not of interest to them. But then I was called back later by the FBI on the same subject.
Mr. JENNER. And you reported that conversation, the subsequent call back by the FBI?
Mrs. PAINE. No. You have content of the first conversation I think there, isn't that so, or it might have been?
Mr. JENNER. There are a series, Mrs. Paine, that run in this order. The first was on December 28, 1963. The conversation occurred between you and an Agent Lee, and it was a telephone interview?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. I have asked You about that, and I have read from the report and you have affirmed that you so reported to the agent. And on the next day, December 29, 1963, you had a telephone conversation, whether you called or whether the agent called with Kenneth C. Howe.
Mrs. PAINE. What is his name?
Mr. JENNER. Kenneth C. Howe, on this same subject. I have questioned you about that, and I have read from the report, and you have affirmed as to that. Then on January 3, 1964, this apparently was an interview at your home by Agent Odum? Do you recall that?
Mrs. PAINE. Agent Odum has been out a great deal.
Mr. JENNER. In which you say, did you not, that this reporter Hudkins of the Houston Post newspaper in his contact with you on the previous Saturday, December 28 had stated that the FBI was foolish to deny that Agent Joseph Hosty, being a reference to the FBI agent we have been talking about today, had tried to develop Lee Harvey Oswald as an informant. You stated you had made no comment one way or the other to Hudkins regarding this remark, and furthermore that you knew that--
Mrs. PAINE. Would you please repeat that, that I stated?
Mr. JENNER. I will read it all to you then. You advised that Lonny Hudkins, the reporter of the Houston Post in his contact that he had with you on the previous Saturday, December 28, 1963, had stated to you that the FBI was foolish to deny that Agent Hosty had tried to develop Lee Harvey Oswald as an informant. Did you make that statement?
Mrs. PAINE. Not in just those terms.
Mr. JENNER. Did you make the further statement that you made no comment one way or the other to Hudkins regarding this remark of his to you? In order to get this in the proper posture, Mrs. Paine--
Senator COOPER. Do you understand the question?
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Mrs. PAINE. I understand what is said, but it doesn't check strictly with my recollection, that is the confusion.
Mr. JENNER. What the agent is reporting is your report of what Lonny Hudkins had said to you, and your report to the agent of your response to what Lonny Hudkins had said to you. Do we have it now in the proper posture?
Mrs. PAINE. This is by no means an accurate description of the conversation or my response.
Mr. JENNER. You don't have to accept this report, of course, Mrs. Paine. Tell us what occurred in that interview?
Mrs. PAINE. All right.
Mr. JENNER. What you said and what Agent Odum said to you.
Mrs. PAINE. Oh, I don't recall that so well. I was going to tell you what I said to Hudkins. I do recall this, and it may be the foundation for what appears in your report there. I made no comment on Mr. Hudkins saying that there was a Joe Hosty, and that this agent had been in contact with Oswald. I observed that Hudkins had inaccurate information.
Mr. JENNER. Didn't you tell the agent what this reporter had said to you that was inaccurate, to wit, that the reporter had stated to you that the FBI was foolish to deny that Agent Hosty had tried to develop Lee Harvey Oswald as an informant?
Mrs. PAINE. What is totally inaccurate is the following, that implies that I made no comment to Hudkins regarding such a remark.
Mr. JENNER. No please, that has not been suggested. I am trying to take this chronologically. Did you first report to the agent that Hudkins had said to you that the FBI was foolish to deny that Agent Joseph Hosty had tried to develop Lee Harvey Oswald as an informant.
Mrs. PAINE. Certainly what Hudkins said was of this nature.
Mr. JENNER. And you so reported to the agent?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Then did you make the further remark, which is what I think you are trying to say, that you made no comment one way or the other to Hudkins when he made that remark, his remark to you?
Mrs. PAINE. I made a great deal of comment and I will say what those comments were.
Mr. JENNER. You did to the reporter.
Mrs. PAINE. To the reporter, yes.
Mr. JENNER. Please say what you said, and did you report this to the FBI, Mr. Odum?
Mrs. PAINE. Inadequately clearly, judging from the---
Mr. JENNER. Why don't you do it this way?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes I reported it.
Mr. JENNER. Let us have first what you said to the FBI agent on the subject?
Mrs. PAINE. I can't recall what I said to the FBI agent. It is much easier for me to recall what I said to Hudkins. But I do recall clearly that I said to the FBI agent "I made no correction of his inaccuracies about Hosty's name."
This is where I made no comment.
Mr. JENNER. I am at a loss now.
Mrs. PAINE. Joe is not his name.
Mr. JENNER. I see. His name is James?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you indicate to the agent that you had raised an issue with the reporter?
Mrs. PAINE. He also spelled it with an "i", Hudkins.
Mr. JENNER. With respect to the other phase, that is to what the reporter had said to you.
Mrs. PAINE. I would guess that I reported to Mr. Odum other things about---
Mr. JENNER. Present recollections Mrs. Paine.
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall the particular conversation with Mr. Odum at all. I talked with him a great deal.
Mr. JENNER. Did you deny this state to Mr. Hudkins, the reporter?
Mrs. PAINE. To Mr. Hudkins?
Mr. JENNER. Did you say to him that you did not agree with his statement?
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Mrs. PAINE. To Mr. Hudkins I said many things, which I hoped would convince him that he had no story, that his information was very shaky, that Oswald was not in my view a person that would have been hired by the FBI or by Russia. I said to him "You are the other side of the coin from a Mr. Guy Richards of the New York Journal-American who is certain that Oswald was a paid spy for the Soviet Union, and just as inaccurate," and coming to, in my opinion, and of course I made it clear this was my opinion, to conclusions just as wrong.
Mr. JENNER. That is, it was your opinion that Lee Oswald was neither a Russian agent nor an agent of any agency of the United States?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right. I said indeed to Mr. Hudkins, I had said to Mr. Richards that if the so- called great Soviet conspiracy has to rest for its help upon such inadequate people as Lee Oswald, there is no hope of their achieving their aims. I said I simply cannot believe that the FBI would find it necessary to employ such a shaky and inadequate person.
Mr. JENNER. And is that still your view?
Mrs. PAINE. Indeed it is.
Mr. JENNER. Did you also say to Mr. Odum on that occasion that you knew that Agent Hosty had not interviewed Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mrs. PAINE. Probably.
Senator COOPER. Did you read the statements after they had been written?
Mrs. PAINE. What statements?
Senator COOPER. The statements of the FBI.
Mrs. PAINE. Oh, no; I have never.
Senator COOPER. You have never seen them?
Mrs. PAINE. Never seen anything of it. I knew they must write something, but I have never seen any of these statements.
Senator COOPER. You never asked them to show you the statements?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever make a statement to anybody that you can recall that Lee Harvey Oswald in your opinion was doing underground work?
Mrs. PAINE. That has never been my opinion. I would be absolutely certain that he never--
Mr. JENNER. Please, did you say it?
Mrs. PAINE. And I would be absolutely certain that I never said such a thing.
Mr. JENNER. To anybody, including when I say anybody, Mrs. Dorothy Gravitis?
Mrs. PAINE. Absolutely certain. Never said to anyone that I thought Lee was doing undercover work.
Senator COOPER. What is that name?
Mr. JENNER. Gravitis, G-r-a-v-i-t-i-s.
Senator COOPER. Do you know this person?
Mrs. PAINE. She is my Russian tutor in Dallas.
Senator COOPER. What?
Mrs. PAINE. Russian tutor and the mother-in-law of the translator that was at the police station.
Mr. JENNER. To conclude this series--
Mrs. PAINE. Would you clarify for me, someone is of the opinion that I thought that Oswald was an undercover agent for whom?
Mr. JENNER. That you said so.
Mrs. PAINE. For whom?
Mr. JENNER. For the Russian government.
Mrs. PAINE. Oh. I have certainly never said anything of the sort.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever say to anybody including Mrs. Gravitis that you thought Lee Harvey Oswald was a Communist?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, it is possible I said that. I thought he considered himself a Communist by ideology, certainly a Marxist. He himself always corrected anyone who called him a Communist and said he was a Marxist.
Mr. JENNER. When you use the term communist do you think of a person as a member of the Communist Party or a native of Russia?
Mrs. PAINE. I seldom use the term at all, but I would confine it to people who were members or considered themselves in support of Communist ideology.
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Mr. JENNER. A person in your mind may be a Communist, and yet not a member of the Communist Party, even in Russia?
Mrs. PAINE. I. might use the word in that loose way.
Mr. JENNER. The last of these interviews was on, may I suggest, and if not would you correct me, January 27, 1964, by Agent Wiehl, and Agent Hosty. It appears, and would you please correct me if I am wrong, to have been an interview in your home at the very tail end of January 1964?
Mrs. PAINE. I have no specific recollection.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall an interview in which you reported to the FBI, these two agents, that agent Hosty--no, that you gave Lee Harvey Oswald the name of agent James P. Hosty together with the Dallas FBI telephone number which you had obtained on November 1, 1963, that you did not give him the license number of the automobile driven by agent Hosty, however, and that, as I have asked you before, the license number could have been observed by Marina Oswald on November 1?
Mrs. PAINE. That is my recollection of the occurrence.
Mr. JENNER. And it could have been observed on November 5th?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Senator COOPER. Did you yourself see the license plate?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Senator COOPER. You don't know the numbers or letters that were on the license plate?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, you testified yesterday and you testified again today, this morning, that you had no recollection of Lee Oswald having gone into the garage of your home on Thursday, November 21. Do you recall that testimony?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, that I did not see him there or see him go through the door to the garage. I was clear in my own mind that it was he who had left the light on, and I tried to describe that.
Mr. JENNER. It may have been a possibility and you were inferring from that that he was in the garage.
Mrs. PAINE. I definitely infer that.
Mr. JENNER. Were you interviewed by the FBI agents Hosty and Abernathy on the 23d of November 1963?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And in the course of that interview, do you recall having stated to these agents that on the evening of November 21, Lee Oswald went out to the garage of your home, where he had many of his personal effects stored, and spent considerable time, apparently rearranging and handling his personal effects.
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall saying exactly that.
Mr. JENNER. Could you have said that to the agents.
Mrs. PAINE. I could have said as far as spending considerable time.
Mr. JENNER. Now that your recollection is possibly further refreshed, please tell us what you did say to the agents as you now recall?
Mrs. PAINE. You have refreshed nothing. You have got all there was of my recollection in previous testimony.
Mr. JENNER. Based on the fundamentals, the specifics which you have given us yesterday and today, you did report to the FBI on the 23d of November in the interview to which I have called your attention that on the evening of the 21st Oswald went out to the garage where he had many of his personal effects stored, and spent considerable time apparently rearranging and handling his personal effects.
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall ever saying "apparently rearranging and handling."
Mr. JENNER. Other than the word "apparently" that is a reasonable summary of what you did say to the FBI agents, is it?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall. I think my best recollection is as I have given it to you in the testimony, was it this morning, that I certainly was of the opinion that he had been out there. I had been busy for some time with my children, and I could easily, and of course that was the day after, and this several months after, have been of the opinion, been informed as to how long he had been out there, but my recollection now doesn't give me any length of time.
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Mr. JENNER. You have heretofore given us yesterday and today your very best recollection after full reflection on all the course of events.
Mrs. PAINE. I certainly have.
Mr. JENNER. I notice that during the course of the interview, and perhaps you will recall, that you did call attention of the FBI, these two agents, to the Mexico City letter about which you have testified, is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I gave it to them.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, that is all I intend to cover with respect to the FBI. Do you have any questions? We will go on to another subject.
Senator COOPER. This would be going back into the subject on which you have already testified, but with reference to this last statement, this letter, where it is reported, you said, Lee Oswald did go into the garage and spend some time, did you. make a statement to the FBI after the agents had been in the garage, or the police had been in the garage, and had found the blanket with nothing in it.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, certainly, this was the next day that Hosty was out with Abernathy.
Senator COOPER. And you did remember of course that you found the light on?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Senator COOPER. You did not expect it to be on in the garage? Do you think it is correct then that at the time you made this statement, recognizing the importance of the garage, that you did say at that time that he had been in the garage on the night before the President was assassinated?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. I think I said that.
Senator COOPER. You think you made that statement?
Mrs. PAINE. I think I made that statement. This was certainly my impression.
Mr. JENNER. You have already related the arrival of your husband, Michael Paine, at your home in mid-afternoon of the day of the assassination?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now would you please tell me exactly to the best of your recollection the words of your husband as he walked in the door?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall his saying anything.
Mr. JENNER. Now his words if any with respect to why he had come.
Mrs. PAINE. I asked him before he volunteered. I said something to the effect of "how did you know to come?"
Mr. JENNER. And what did he say?
Mrs. PAINE. He said he had heard on the radio at work that Lee Oswald was in custody, and came immediately to the house.
Mr. JENNER. And that is what you recall he said?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Did he say, and I quote: "I heard where the President was shot, and I came right over to see if I could be of any help to you."'
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Did he also say to you that he "just walked off the job."
Mrs. PAINE. No. He said he had come from work. I might interject here one recollection if you want it.
Mr. JENNER. Please.
Mrs. PAINE. Of Michael having telephoned to me after the assassination, He wanted to know if I had heard.
Mr. JENNER. Did he call you before he arrived at your home?
Mrs. PAINE. He called. He knew about the assassination. He had been told by a waitress at lunchtime. I don't know whether he knew any further details. whether he knew from whence the shots had been fired, but he knew immediately that I would want to know, and called simply to find out if I knew, and of course I did, and we didn't converse about it, but I felt the difference between him and my immediate neighbor to whom I have already referred, Michael was as struck and grieved as I was, and we shared this over the telephone.
Mr. JENNER. And his appearance in mid-afternoon. as you have related, was according to what he said activated as you have related, that he had heard that Lee Oswald was now involved.
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
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Mr. JENNER. How did you and Marina look at the parade, that is as the motorcade went along were you and Marina--
Mrs. PAINE. This was not shown on television.
Mr. JENNER. Oh, it wasn't?
Mrs. PAINE. To the best of my recollection they had cameras at the convention center, whatever it was, that the President was coming to for dinner, and for his talk.
Mr. JENNER. And was the motorcade being described, broadcast by radio?
Mrs. PAINE. The motorcade was being described.
Mr. JENNER. Were you and Marina listening to that?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, it was coming through the television set, but it wasn't being shown.
Mr. JENNER. Were you listening?
Mrs. PAINE. We were.
Mr. JENNER. Did she show an interest in this?
Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes.
Mr. JENNER. And it being broadcast in English, I assume you were doing some interpreting for her?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Most of this has been covered, Senator Cooper, and I am getting through pages fortunately that we don't have to go over again.
Senator COOPER. After you knew that the President was dead, and Marina knew, do you know, from that time on, whether she ever went into her room, left you and went into her room?
Mrs. PAINE. I would think it highly likely that she did. The announcement that the President was actually dead came, oh, I think around 1:30 or close to 2. I already related that my little girl wept and fell asleep on the sofa. This was a time therefore that Marina would have been putting Junie to bed in the bedroom.
Senator COOPER. Between the time that you heard the President had been shot and the news came that he died, did she ever leave you and go into her room, do you remember?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't remember specifically, but you must understand that the little baby was already born. She would have had many occasions, needs to go into the room.
Senator COOPER. Do you know whether she went into the garage?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't know.
Senator COOPER. What?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't know whether she went into the garage.
Mr. JENNER. You have no impressions in that respect?
Mrs. PAINE. None.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall an incident involving Lee Oswald's wedding ring?
Mrs. PAINE. I do.
Mr. JENNER. Would you relate that, please?
Mrs. PAINE. One or two FBI agents came to my home, I think, Odum was one of them, and said that Marina had inquired after and wanted Lee's wedding ring, and he asked me if I had any idea where to look for it. I said I'll look first in the little tea cup that is from her grandmother, and on top of the chest of drawers in the bedroom where she had stayed. I looked and it was there.
Mr. JENNER. Calling on your recollection of this man, was he in the habit of wearing his wedding ring?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did this strike you as unusual that the wedding ring should be back in this cup on the dresser in their room?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, quite.
Mr. JENNER. Elaborate as to why it struck you as unusual?
Mrs. PAINE. I do not wear my wedding ring. Marina has on several occasions said to me she considers that bad luck, not a good thing to do.
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I would suspect that she would certainly have wanted Lee to wear his wedding ring, and encouraged him to do it.
Mr. JENNER. In face of the fact that he regularly wore his wedding ring, yet on this occasion, that is being home the evening before, you received this call, you went to the bedroom and you found the wedding ring. Did it occur to you that that might have been in the nature of a leave-taking of some kind by Lee Oswald, leaving his wedding ring for Marina?
Mrs. PAINE. It occurred to me that that might have been a form of thinking ahead. I had no way of knowing whether or not Marina had known that he left it. I was not instructed where to look for it.
Mr. JENNER. You were not?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. But Marina did say to you "would you look for Lee's wedding ring?"
Mrs. PAINE. No, Odum did.
Mr. JENNER. Odum did.
Mrs. PAINE. And of course clearly they would know whether he had it.
Mr. JENNER. Yes, I see. It was not Marina. It was one of the FBI agents. And it is your clear recollection that he was in the habit of wearing that
wedding ring all the time. Do you ever recall an occasion when he left the wedding ring at home?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. To your knowledge?
Mrs. PAINE. To my knowledge, no.
Mr. JENNER. When you obtained the wedding ring did you examine it?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. I mean did you look inside to see if there was an inscription on it or were you curious about that?
Mrs. PAINE. I gave it to Mr. Odum who was with me in the room.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Odum accompanied you?
Mrs. PAINE. Went with me to the bedroom. I am pretty sure he was the one.
Senator COOPER. The morning of the day that the President was killed, did Mrs. Oswald, after she got up, say anything to you about any unusual characteristics of Lee Oswald's taking leave of her that morning?
Mrs. PAINE. Absolutely none.
Senator COOPER. Did she talk about him leaving? Did she tell you anything at all about what happened when he did get up?
Mrs. PAINE. I have a recollection that must be from her that she woke enough to feed the baby, to nurse the baby in the morning, when he was getting up to go, but she then went back to sleep after that, and she must have told me that. But that is all I know, that she had been awake, and nursed the baby early in the morning, and then went back to sleep.
Senator COOPER. And Lee Oswald went back to sleep?
Mrs. PAINE. No, no, Marina went back to sleep.
Senator COOPER. Oh, Marina went back to sleep. Was he leaving then?
Mrs. PAINE. I judge so.
Senator COOPER. What?
Mrs. PAINE. I judge so.
Senator COOPER. But I mean did she say anything else about him?
Mrs. PAINE. No; nothing about his leaving at all.
Mr. JENNER. What were his habits with respect to breakfast? For example on the Monday mornings of the weekends which he visited your home, did he prepare his own, and if so, what kind of a breakfast did he prepare?
Mrs. PAINE. I would say his habit was to have a cup of instant coffee only.
Mr. JENNER. And you have a clear recollection that on the morning of the
21st when you went into the kitchen--
Mrs. PAINE. The 22d.
Mr. JENNER. The 22d, I am sorry, the 22d you saw a plastic coffee cup or tea cup, and you looked at it and you could see the remains of somebody having prepared instant coffee?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. And that is clear in your mind?
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Mrs. PAINE. Perfectly clear. I looked especially for traces of Lee having been up, since I wondered if he might be still sleeping, having overslept.
Mr. JENNER. Was he in the habit on these weekends of making himself a sandwich which he would take with him?
Mrs. PAINE. No; there is no such habit. Perhaps once Marina prepared something for him to take with him, I think more for him to put in his room, partly for lunch, partly for him to have at his room in town and use the refrigerator.
Mr. JENNER. But in any event, on the morning of the 22d you saw no evidence of there having been an attempt by anybody to prepare?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Sandwiches for lunch or to take anything else in the way of food from your home?
Mrs. PAINE. I saw no evidence, and I saw nothing that was missing.
Mr. JENNER. At any time during all the time you knew the Oswalds, up to and including November 22, was any mention ever made of any attempt on the life of Richard Nixon?
Mrs. PAINE. None.
Mr. JENNER. Just that subject matter, was it ever mentioned?
Mrs. PAINE. Never.
Mr. JENNER. To the best of your recollection did they ever discuss Richard Nixon as a person?
Mrs. PAINE. I can't recall Richard Nixon coming into the conversation at any time.
Mr. JENNER. And to the present day--well, I want to include the time that you spoke here a couple weeks ago with Marina, let us say up to and including that day had there ever been any discussion with you by Marina of
the possibility of Lee Oswald contemplating making an attack upon the person of Richard Nixon?
Mrs. PAINE. No; no such discussion.
Mr. JENNER. Did anyone else ever talk to you about that up to that time, talk to you on that subject?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, after it was rumored in the paper, someone asked me if I thought there was anything to it but that is something else.
Mr. JENNER. When you say recently some rumor to that effect that is what you are talking about?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Up to that time?
Mrs. PAINE. Absolutely none.
Mr. JENNER. I take it from your testimony this morning that you have seen and talked with Robert Oswald but once?
Mrs. PAINE. And you recall also when he came to pick up her things?
Mr. JENNER. Oh, yes.
Mrs. PAINE. Twice.
Mr. JENNER. So you saw him once for the first time in the city police station?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. You talked with him on that occasion. You saw him on one occasion when not so long after that he came out to pick up her things?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. And had some conversation with him then. Have there ever been any other occasions that you have had a conversation with him directly or by telephone?
Mrs. PAINE. No. I made one attempt to have such a conversation and drove out to his home in Denton and talked with his wife.
Mr. JENNER. And what occurred then? When was that?
Mrs. PAINE. Possibly in January.
Mr. JENNER. Of 1964?
Mrs. PAINE. Right,
Mr. JENNER. Why did you go out there?
Mrs. PAINE. I had been writing letters to Marina and receiving no reply, and I wanted to go and talk with both Robert and his wife to inquire what was the best way to be a friend to Marina in this situation, whether it was better to
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write letters or better not to, whether she wanted to hear from me or whether she didn't, and knowing that they had seen her, I felt they might be able to help me with this.
I was told by Mrs. Robert Oswald that Robert had a bad cold, and she didn't want to expose my children who were with me, and she and I talked through the screen, and I explained what I wanted. But I didn't feel helped by the visit.
Mr. JENNER. You did not.
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Did you feel that there was a lack of cordiality?
Mrs. PAINE. She apologized for not having me in, and she was friendly and said, "what nice children you have," but it is somewhat hard to communicate through a screen.
Mr. JENNER. That was the only difficulty that you observed, the difficulty in talking through the screen door, the screen of the door?
Mrs. PAINE. I felt that she could have asked me whether I cared if my children were exposed. I felt that she preferred for me not to come in.
Senator COOPER. Was Marina staying with them?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't believe so. I am pretty certain she was at that time at
the Martin's home.
Senator COOPER. Did you get any impression in your talk with Mrs. Robert Oswald that they were not interested in finding out the information that you were asking for?
Mrs. PAINE. She offered the opinion that she didn't think there was any particular point to writing letters at this time, but she offered no reason.
Mr. JENNER. By the way, do you have copies of those letters, Mrs. Paine?
Mrs. PAINE. At home.
Mr. JENNER. I know now that I will be to see you on Monday.
Mrs. PAINE. Monday?
Mr. JENNER. Yes. Are you going to be home on Monday?
Mrs. PAINE. I am flying Monday morning. Shall we go together? I am not leaving until Monday morning.
Mr. JENNER. I am going down Sunday night. So may I see those letters on that occasion?
Mrs. PAINE. As soon as I get home.
Mr. JENNER. Would you be good enough--
Mrs. PAINE. I will have to translate them.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mrs. PAINE. That will take a while.
Mr. JENNER. With respect to the curtain-rod package, would you be good enough to leave it intact, don't touch it, just leave it where it is without touching it at all.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now you have related to us the Texas School Book Depository employment, the ability to operate an automobile. I am going to read a list of names to you, and you stop me every time I read a name that is familiar to you. There are some of the Russian emigre group in and around Dallas. Some of them may not be Russian emigre group people, but some of the members of the staff want these particular persons covered. George Bouhe.
Mrs. PAINE. I don't know him.
Mr. JENNER. I want also your response that you didn't hear these names discussed by either Marina or Lee.
Mrs. PAINE. I have never heard that name discussed by Marina or Lee Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. and Mrs. Frank Ray.
Mrs. PAINE. I did not hear that name discussed by either of them. I have since learned from Mrs. Ford that it was to Mrs. Ray's home that Marina went from Mrs. Ford's home in the fall of 1962.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. and Mrs. Thomas Ray.
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. I won't ask you--well, I have Mr. and Mrs. De Mohrenschildt on my list.
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You have already testified about them.
Mrs. PAINE. I have met them once; yes.
Mr. JENNER. Only on that one occasion?
Mrs. PAINE. To the best of my recollection; that is right.
Mr. JENNER. John and Elena Hall?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I don't know them.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever hear them discussed by either Marina or Lee?
Mrs. PAINE. I have never at any time heard that name.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
I think I pronounce this correctly, Tatiana Biggers?
Mrs. PAINE. I am not familiar with that name, and I never heard it.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Teofil Meller?
Mrs. PAINE. I am not familiar with that name.
Mr. JENNER. Lydia Dymitruk?
Mrs. PAINE. I met a Lydia who was working as a clerk at a grocery store in Irving, and I had met Marina previously. I am not certain of her last name. I am certain that Marina told me not to learn Russian from her, it was not grammatical.
Mr. JENNER. I see.
By the way, did Marina go out by herself occasionally and shop?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. and Mrs. Daniel F. Sullivan?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't know that name.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. and Mrs. Alan A. Jackson III?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't know that name.
Mr. JENNER. Peter Gregory?
Mrs. PAINE. I know that name; yes. That name was mentioned by, to the best of my recollection first in my presence by, Marguerite Oswald, who told us that she had just started at the police when I first met her
Mr. JENNER. I would like that. The first time there came to your attention and your consciousness the name Peter Gregory was when Marguerite Oswald mentioned it at the police station on the 22d of November 1963, is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; because she had just begun a course of study with him in order to try to learn the Russian language at the public library.
Mr. JENNER. She so said?
Mrs. PAINE. She so said. I don't recall having heard the name previously.
Although I am not certain.
Mr. JENNER. Paul Gregory.
Mrs. PAINE. I would be absolutely certain I had never heard the name from either of the Oswalds.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Is that likewise true of Paul Gregory who is the son I may tell you of Peter Gregory?
Mrs. PAINE. I am not familiar with that name.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. and Mrs., I know you are familiar with this name, Mr. and Mrs. Declan Ford. When did you first hear of the name of those people with respect to November 22, 1963, before or after or on that very day?
Mrs. PAINE. Mrs. Ford was mentioned to me by name by Marina in the fall of 1963 before the time of the assassination. Marina described to me a party at Mrs. Ford's home, and described the decor of the house and how much she admired Mrs. Ford's tastes, and said that Mrs. Ford had done most of the decorating herself.
Let me just say Marina also told me she had stayed at someone's home in the fall of 1962, but she did not tell me the name of Mrs. Ford in that connection.
It came up in this other connection. It is only since the assassination that I learned she had stayed briefly at Mrs. Ford's.
Mr. JENNER. I see.
That is the extent of your information with respect to the Fords at least up to November 22?
Mrs. PAINE. Up to the time of the assassination that is the extent of it.
Mr. JENNER. I wish to be certain of this and I don't recall whether I asked you and, therefore, I will risk repetition.
Did Marina and Lee, with you or even without you, visit any people, to your
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knowledge, while Marina was living with you in the fall of 1963, just social visit, go out and make a social visit?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. I meant to include whether either together as a couple or separately.
Mrs. PAINE. I recall no such visit.
Mr. JENNER. I think your testimony was when Lee Oswald came home on the weekends, from what you have described he remained on the premises?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. With the possible exception of one instance when he went off and bought some groceries or am I wrong about that exception?
Mrs. PAINE. He went with my children to buy some popsicles while I was teaching a student, so I was not at home that time.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
We have a report, Mrs. Paine, and you might help us with it on this subject, of a barber in your community, who recounts to the FBI that in his opinion Lee Harvey Oswald or what he thinks a gentleman who was that man, came to his shop reasonably regularly and had a haircut on Saturday, on Saturdays, and accompanying him was what he judged to be a 14-year-old boy. Do you recall Lee Oswald ever obtaining a haircut over any weekend while he was at your home?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. To the best of your recollection, subject to his being off the premises while you were away shopping, it is your present firm recollection he never left the premises once he arrived, save this one instance that you knew of when he went to get popsicles?
Mrs. PAINE. Of course, I was away during that instance.
Mr. JENNER. You were?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. But you anticipated?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. Now, the morning of the 11th of November I was not home from something before 9 o'clock until about 2 that afternoon. I don't know what transpired during that time.
Mr. JENNER. Were there other occasions when you were off ministering to your children, that is taking them to the dentist or something of that nature, on a Saturday or to church on Sunday or to the local park on Sunday, that Lee Oswald may have been, that is periods of time when you would not have known whether he was on or off your premises?
Mrs. PAINE. I can think only of grocery shopping which would have been an hour to an hour and a half period, and the two times that I can recall in the Saturday afternoon, on a Saturday afternoon that I went to Dallas to teach one Russian student a lesson. I can't think of any other spaces of time, hours that I was away.
Mr. JENNER. Now, this gentleman also says--
Mrs. PAINE. Except the one I have just mentioned, of course, the one of November 11.
Mr. JENNER. He also says that the man he thinks was Lee Harvey Oswald not only regularly came to his shop on Friday evenings or Saturday mornings for a haircut, but that he occasionally drove a station wagon.
Do you know of any occasion to your certain knowledge that Lee drove your station wagon other than the one occasion you have already related?
Mrs. PAINE. Absolutely none.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know whether Lee Oswald subscribed to any newspapers?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I do.
Mr. JENNER. What newspapers, excuse me, did he or did he not subscribe?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. They came to my door. They sat around the house until the weekend when he arrived.
Mr. JENNER. Tell us what newspapers those were?
Mrs. PAINE. I noticed a paper which I was told was from Minsk.
Mr. JENNER. Was it in Russian?
Mrs. PAINE. In Russian.
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Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see it in the sense of glancing at it out of idle curiosity if nothing else?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And it was in Russian?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Was there something about it that indicated to you that it came from Minsk?
Mrs. PAINE. Marina told me.
Mr. JENNER. She told you. Was it a political tract or was it a newspaper as we understand newspapers?
Mrs. PAINE. It was a newspaper as Russians understand newspapers which makes it a borderline political tract.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
In addition to that Russian newspaper from Minsk was there anything--
Mrs. PAINE. There was a Russian magazine, small, Reader's Digest size.
Mr. JENNER. The witness is indicating in her hands about a page size of about nine by--
Mrs. PAINE. Six.
Mr. JENNER. Nine by six.
Is that about the size?
Mrs. PAINE. Something like that, called the Agitator, the name written in Russian.
Mr. JENNER. The word "Agitator" was written in Russian, printed in Russian?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. On the face or cover page of this document, is that true?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Was the entire document in Russian?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have occasion to look at it?
Mrs. PAINE. Just the outside.
Mr. JENNER. Your curiosity or intellectual interest never went beyond reading any portion of one of the issues?
Mrs. PAINE. It never did.
Mr. JENNER. But you do recall definitely the title page?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Any others?
Mrs. PAINE. Crocodile, which is a Russian satirical humor magazine.
Mr. JENNER. Was that in Russian?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have occasion to read it and to observe Russian humor?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. It was not political in character?
Mrs. PAINE. Being satirical, of course, it made political reference but it was not particularly political in nature.
Mr. JENNER. It was not designed as a political tract, put it that way.
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Anything else?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. The Russian magazine Ogonok.
Mr. JENNER. What does that mean in Russian?
Mrs. PAINE. It means "bonfire" or "fire".
Mr. JENNER. Was that printed in Russian?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have--did your curiosity lead you to read any portion of it?
Mrs. PAINE. Or it may be let's see, I am not certain in my translation, but go ahead with the question.
Mr. JENNER. You are not certain of your translation of the word?
Mrs. PAINE. Of that single word?
Mr. JENNER. Of the title of this document about which you are now speaking?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. But you think it means what you said it meant?
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Mrs. PAINE. It has something to do with fire; yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you read any portion of any of those issues?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did.
Mr. JENNER. And what was the nature of it with respect to whether it was political or otherwise?
Mrs. PAINE. It was not political.
Mr. JENNER. What was its nature?
Mrs. PAINE. Narrative, special articles of interest to the general population.
Marina enjoyed reading this one.
Mr. JENNER. She enjoyed it?
Mrs. PAINE. She expressed herself as disliking the Agitator. She interpreted some of the things in Crocodile for me which I had difficulty understanding.
Mr. JENNER. Anything else?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. He subscribed to Time magazine.
Mr. JENNER. Here in America?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And did he read it when he come out on weekends?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; he did. He read that first.
Mr. JENNER. Sat down and read that first.
Did he take the issue away with him when he left every week?
Mrs. PAINE. It is my impression he did.
Mr. JENNER. Are there any others?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. He subscribed to the Militant.
Mr. JENNER. Militant. What is the Militant?
Mrs. PAINE. It is a paper in English, newspaper style and I would say these next two--
Mr. JENNER. Published by whom?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't know.
Mrs. JENNER. Socialist Worker's Party?
Mrs. PAINE. I have been so told.
Mr. JENNER. You just don't know?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't know.
Mr. JENNER. But was it a political tract?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't know that.
Mr. JENNER. Did you read it?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mrs. JENNER. Why didn't you?
Mrs. PAINE. I wasn't interested.
Mr. JENNER. Because of the nature of the document?
Mrs. PAINE. If I had had time to do much reading, I might have taken an interest but I had no time, insufficient time to do the reading I really wanted to do. He also subscribed to the Worker.
Mr. JENNER. Is that the publication of the Communist Party USA?
Mrs. PAINE. I have been told so.
Mr. JENNER. Did you read that?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Did you observe--have you now concluded the list of newspapers, periodicals or magazines to which he was a subscriber?
Mrs. PAINE. I believe so. I might say that my awareness of his subscribing to these last two, the Militant and the Worker, came after the assassination. There was mail awaiting for him for that weekend which he did not pick up on the 21st, and after the assassination, indeed, after Saturday evening, the 23d, when it was announced on television that they had a photograph of Lee Oswald holding two papers. I looked at this pile of mail waiting for him which consisted of these two newspapers, the Militant and the Worker, and I threw them away.
Mr. JENNER. You threw them away?
Mrs. PAINE. Without opening them.
Mr. JENNER. Why did you throw them away?
Mrs. PAINE. I was pleased to throw away anything I could. I just didn't want it.
Mr. JENNER. Well, my question or query, and I think expression of surprise,
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is activated by what I am about to ask you as to whether you might call that to the attention of the FBI?
Mrs. PAINE. Oh, I am sure they knew.
Mr. JENNER. How are you sure they knew?
Mrs. PAINE. Because mail stopped coming on the spot, nothing came after the assassination, I was certain it was still coming to some place.
Mr. JENNER. But this was almost instantaneously after you heard a broadcast that a photograph of him had been found in which he had been holding up the Militant.
But you immediately went to see if he had that mail and there was a copy of the Militant and you threw it away?
Mrs. PAINE. Why not?
Mr. JENNER. Well, it occurred to me you might have called the FBI's attention to the fact that it had come to the house. But you didn't in any event?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I didn't.
Mr. JENNER. Did you report it to the FBI in any of these interviews you had subsequently with them, or did they ask? It is two questions, if you will answer both.
Mrs. PAINE. If so, it was quite recently.
Mr. JENNER. When did the other papers begin to arrive? Did I interrupt you before you had a chance to complete your answer to my question?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. The papers different from the Worker and the Militant, when did they begin to arrive at your home?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, they began to arrive, I would say, some time after October 4th. That is, of course, my judgment. That is a rationalization.
Mr. JENNER. These magazines and newspapers you have recounted first appeared at your home after Lee Oswald came to Dallas and became employed or came to Dallas to live at your house and to seek employment?
Mrs. PAINE. He came to Dallas, he lived in Dallas, but he used my house.
Mr. JENNER. He came to your house?
Mrs. PAINE. As a residence, mailing address. Never asked to and I never complained but I noticed, of course, that he was using it as a mailing address.
Mr. JENNER. Up to that time and even though Marina was living with you nothing of that nature came to your home?
Mrs. PAINE. What?
Mr. JENNER. Prior to the time that Lee arrived at your home on or about or on the 4th of October 1963, none of these newspapers or periodicals had come to your home, is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Was he a reader of the local newspaper?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You were a subscriber to what?
Mrs. PAINE. To the Irving newspaper and the Sunday Dallas Morning News.
Mr. JENNER. Did he read both of those?
Mrs. PAINE. He was very interested in seeing the Sunday paper edition especially. He read both, to the best of my recollection.
Mr. JENNER. He also read the daily papers?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, he wasn't there daily.
Mr. JENNER. When he was there he read it?
Mrs. PAINE. The Irving paper didn't come out on Saturday, so it was only the Sunday papers.
Mr. JENNER. But there were occasions when you had issues, the Friday issue around or Thursday issue around your home?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall his being interested in back issues.
Mr. JENNER. Are there any letters and communications between you and Marina or between you and Lee Oswald to which you have not called my attention?
Mrs. PAINE. There never were any letters of any sort between me and Lee Oswald except unless you could include this English portion to which I have already called your attention in a letter to Marina.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
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Mrs. PAINE. The only other letters--I have called your attention to all such letters, but I will have to wait until you are in Dallas to see the letters written since the assassination to Marina.
Mr. JENNER. Then I will ask you this question.
You produced for my inspection all of these letters other than the ones that I will see when I am in Dallas which you have identified as having been written subsequent to, subsequently to, November 22, 1963, is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right, you have all the correspondence.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mrs. PAINE. Wait, we did omit one letter which you have from Marina.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; I have it here.
Mrs. PAINE. You have no gaps that I could supply you.
Mr. JENNER. I appreciate the fact I have that letter which we found not relevant and, therefore, I did not tender it. You have tendered to me everything other than those I will see when I reach Dallas.
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Now, do you recall having a conversation with Dr. Froelich Rainey--
Senator COOPER. May I ask, just a moment, the letter which has not been tendered and which was said not to be relevant--
Mrs. PAINE. You have a copy of it.
Senator COOPER. To whom was that letter addressed?
Mr. JENNER. That is addressed to Marina.
Senator COOPER. May I ask, does counsel have a copy of that letter?
Mr. JENNER. Yes; I have a copy of the letter and I have preserved the original and I also have a typewritten copy.
Senator COOPER. It has not been offered as part of evidence?
Mr. JENNER. It has not been offered because it is irrelevant to anything referred to here and it also has a personal remark in it that Mrs. Paine would prefer not to have spread on the record.
Mrs. PAINE. A remark not pertinent to the assassination or to the Oswalds but to my marriage.
Mr. JENNER. Is the name--
Senator COOPER. Let me just say for the record I think that will have to be a matter which will have to be considered by the members of the Commission.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
The letter to which you have reference you have exhibited to me, it is in your handwriting and it is in the same condition now as it was, a copy of a letter as I recall?
Mrs. PAINE. Which letter are you referring to?
(Short recess.)
Senator COOPER. On the record.
Mr. JENNER. I will do some jumping around because we have some tag ends to cover, I hope in a hurry.
You left New Orleans on September 23, was that in the morning or afternoon?
Mrs. PAINE. It was early morning.
Mr. JENNER. Early morning.
Did you drive right straight through to Irving?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. You stopped then the evening of September 23, is that right?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. And where, in Texas?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it was just over the line into Texas.
Mr. JENNER. Do you remember the name of the town?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I don't.
Mr. JENNER. Did you pay for that lodging?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did.
Mr. JENNER. By the way,.was there ever any financial arrangement agreed on with respect to Marina's stay with you in the fall of 1963 which would involve your giving her $10 a week or any other sum?
Mrs. PAINE. No; nothing was said beyond this attempt in the letter that I made to make her feel that she would not be having to ask for every need.
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Mr. JENNER. We have those letters now in evidence and you testified about them
yesterday?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Returning your attention to the time that Mr. Oswald, Lee Oswald, came to Irving in October of 1963, that is October 4, and reported to you he hitchhiked, you recall that?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. He remained overnight the night of the 4th of October, is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; he did.
Mr. JENNER. Did he return to Dallas the following day?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Was he driven back to Dallas within the next couple of days by you?
Mrs. PAINE. My recollection is that I took him to the bus station around noon on the 7th of October, that is a Monday.
Mr. JENNER. You did not drive him all the way into downtown Dallas?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I don't believe so.
Mr. JENNER. Marina has testified, or at least when interviewed by the FBI stated, that you did drive Lee to downtown Dallas.
Mrs. PAINE. I have given you all my recollections on this matter, haven't I, for the record?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. PAINE. With--
Mr. JENNER. Even after further reflection last night your recollection is as you have already stated?
Mrs. PAINE. That there was an occasion that we were going in with a Russian typewriter on an errand of mine to get that fixed, and I drove him to Ross Street and some crossroad, and he said was near to the employment office.
Mr. JENNER. I see. What occasion was this?
Mrs. PAINE. What day?
Mr. JENNER. Day, yes; please?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall but I would be fairly certain it was a Monday.
Mr. JENNER. And had he been out at your home over the weekend?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; that is my best recollection.
Mr. JENNER. Was it after he had become employed with the Book Depository?
Mrs. PAINE. No; he was on his way to the employment office. This was his purpose.
Mr. JENNER. So it was sometime prior to the weekend, was it, that the matter by the Texas Book Depository had arisen?
Mrs. PAINE. I would judge that it has to have been on the 14th, which was and indeed morning prior to the conversation at Mrs. Roberts about this.
Mr. JENNER. I see.
Mrs. PAINE. But I may be wrong about that, but it is my best recollection.
Mr. JENNER. Did the conversation at Mrs. Roberts take place on the 15th of
Mrs. PAINE. No; on the 14th.
Mr. JENNER. On the 14th. That was what day of the week?
Mrs. PAINE. Monday.
Mr. JENNER. Did you drive him into Dallas on that day?
Mrs. PAINE. I can't think when else it could have been.
Mr. JENNER. And to the best of your recollection that is probably the day then?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Did you indicate did Marina accompany you?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did she or you indicate any interest in driving by and seeing his
apartment or room?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion at any time, Mrs. Paine, in your home
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or otherwise, with Marina or with Lee, as to the appearance of his rooming house, curtains flooring, what it was like?
Mrs. PAINE. The only thing I recall is that he described it as more comfortable than the $7 room he had occupied, told me the cost of it, said that he could watch television and had privileges to use the refrigerator.
Mr. JENNER. But other than that he didn't describe it?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Was there ever any discussion of any need on his part for curtains, that he liked to brighten up his room or in any respect, any additional appointments?
Mrs. PAINE. There was no such conversation at any time.
Mr. JENNER. You are acquainted with Dr. Froelich Rainey?
Mrs. PAINE. I am.
Mr. JENNER. He is--what is his position with the University of Pennsylvania. He has a position with the University of Pennsylvania Music Department, has he not?
Mrs. PAINE. He is the curator, the head man, as I understand it.
Mr. JENNER. You are acquainted with his wife Penelope?
Mrs. PAINE. I am.
Mr. JENNER. Does Penelope speak Russian fluently?
Mrs. PAINE. She has a very good command of the language. I think she has not had very much opportunity to use it in speech.
Mr. JENNER. Have you had occasion to inquire of Mrs. Rainey as to whether she might assist you with your Russian studies?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, there was never any discussion of assisting me in the role of tutor. She did some years ago loan me a record which I taped that was Russian and we visited this fall as part of my trip in the east.
Mr. JENNER. You mean, summer, not fall.
Mrs. PAINE. Well, it was, yes, August probably or early September that I saw her.
Mr. JENNER. And you do recall during the course of your summer trip before is you wound up in New Orleans from that trip?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. So we are talking about the same trip.
Mrs. PAINE. That is the same trip.
Mr. JENNER. You did see her?
Mrs. PAINE. I did.
Mr. JENNER. Where in Philadelphia?
Mrs. PAINE. At her home.
Mr. JENNER. Where is her home?
Mrs. PAINE. Her home is not far from the residence where I was saying in Paoli. It is suburban Philadelphia.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have occasion then to report to her that--about Marina?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did.
Mr. JENNER. And advise her in that respect, that she was married to an American who is now residing in New Orleans?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you say to her that the, I will call the, lady, Marina, but it is stated differently here, appeared to be having marital difficulties with her husband.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And would you state what your remarks were to Mrs. Rainey in that connection? That is the treatment of Marina by Lee?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall exactly what I said as to the treatment, but that Marina was unhappy, and that I thought she should have some alternative to living with him, and that I would probably, when down there, offer for her to live at my home. She asked me what Michael thought of that, and I said we had discussed it but that Michael and I were not living together, and this was news to Mrs. Rainey, and concerned her deeply.
And I said that I was lonely. I recall one important thing in what I said to Mrs. Rainey, that I never said in conversation to anyone else, that I was worried about offending Lee, that if offended, or if he felt 1 was talking his wife or not
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doing what he wanted in the situation, that he might be angry with me, and that I didn't want to subject myself or my children to possible harm from him.
She is the only person to whom I mentioned my thought that he might possibly be a person who could cause harm, and there was a very, not a strong thought in my thinking at all, but should be registered as having at least occurred to me, that he could be angry to the point of violence in relation to me.
Mr. JENNER. To the point of physical violence in relation to you?
Mrs. PAINE. In relation to me in this situation and I wanted to be perfectly
sure before I made any offer definite that he was not, in fact, angry at my offer.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall visiting your sister Sylvia?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; indeed.
Mr. JENNER. You were there about 3 days?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you discuss Marina when you were with your sister?
Mr. PAINE. Very probably.
Mr. JENNER. And in substance did you say to your sister that you intended to go to New Orleans in the course of your trip within about 2 weeks to pick up Marina who was pregnant, she was the wife of an American, and she was to live with you in your home in Texas?
Did you say that much to her?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, I probably said it depended on whether she wanted to go.
Mr. JENNER. Other than that have I stated the substance in that connection?
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you also say to her that Marina wanted to leave her husband who was not supporting her, and was a jerk as far as his husband's role was concerned?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. You did not.
What did you say, did you say anything of similar import?
Mrs. PAINE. Similar?
Mr. JENNER. That is, you did imply to your sister, did you, that Marina wished to leave Lee?
Mrs. PAINE. No. I would guess. that was her interpretation.
Mr. JENNER. What did you say in this connection, please?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall exactly.
Mr. JENNER. Well, did you say, did you express your personal opinion to your sister as to Lee Oswald?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. What did you say in that connection.
Mrs. PAINE. My opinion of Lee Oswald was quite negative all the way up to--
This is what you have told your sister now, that is what I want. I can't recall exactly what I told my sister at all.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. PAINE. I talked with virtually everyone I saw this summer, and there were a great many people, about this friend because it was important to me. I have already testified that I thought Lee didn't care enough about his wife and wasn't being a proper husband in the spring and through the summer, therefore, and it wasn't until I was in New Orleans that I thought he cared at all.
Mr. JENNER. I am just confining myself to this period. During this period as you visited your friends you did have occasion to express a negative opinion on your part with respect to Lee Oswald?
Mrs. PAINE. Indeed.
Mr. JENNER. Is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. It might have been more or less forceful in that expression of your opinion depending on the person with whom or to whom you were talking.
Mrs. PAINE. I would say that my sister's reaction to what I said was more forceful than what I said.
Mr. JENNER. But you did express a negative opinion.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
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Mr. JENNER. You testified that--are you acquainted with a Dr. Carl Hyde?
Mrs. PAINE. He is my brother.
Mr. JENNER. Did you discuss Marina and Lee with him when you visited there in September of 1963?
Mrs. PAINE. I recall particularly an evening discussion with his wife where I told quite a lot about the contact that I had had with Marina.
Mr. JENNER. Did you state to either or both of them that Marina's husband was a Communist?
Mrs. PAINE. That is possible. I think it is more likely that I referred to him as a Marxist.
Mr. JENNER. Now, what is the distinction between a Marxist and a Communist in your mind?
Mrs. PAINE. Distinction is not clear to me, but I judged that Lee felt there was a distinction as he
Mr. JENNER. What was your impression as to what Lee thought a Marxist was as distinguished from a Communist?
Mrs. PAINE. I have no clear impression.
Mr. JENNER. If I suggested the possibility of, that a Marxist tenet was the change in government by violent means rather than gradual process?
Mrs. PAINE. This is not something I ever heard from him.
Mr. JENNER. Was it anything that you ever thought of?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. A concept that you ever had?
Mrs. PAINE. In describing Marxism?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever discuss with Lee why he was--he always took care to distinguish to say that he was a Marxist as distinguished from a Communist?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I never did.
Mr. JENNER. Did you form an impression as to what he intended to convey by that description?
Mrs. PAINE. He intended to convey that he was more pure, I felt, that was my impression.
Mr. JENNER. More pure than what?
Mrs. PAINE. Than a Communist.
Mr. JENNER. Did you also say to your brother or your sister or both of them that Lee had not permitted her to learn English, that is Marina?
Mrs. PAINE. Very probably.
Mr. JENNER. And that Marina was experiencing marital difficulties with Lee?
Mrs. PAINE. Very probably.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever say that Marina did not share her husband's political views?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did.
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, that is to your brother or sister or both of them?
Mrs. PAINE. To the best of my recollection.
Mr. JENNER. Speaking of the marital difficulties, did you ever have the feeling that Marina was in some measure a contribution--contributed toward those,
causing those difficulties or a catalyst from which those difficulties resulted?
Mrs. PAINE. I didn't have that feeling.
Mr. JENNER. You did not.
What feeling did you have in that direction, assuming you had one?
Mrs. PAINE. All the time I knew her or at least any references from her of the matter to their marriage left me with the impression that it was hopeful that though it was difficult they could work out their difficulties.
Mr. JENNER. And that she was desirous of attempting to do so?
Mrs. PAINE. She was desirous of attempting to do so though still leaving open the possibility that in time she would have to conclude that she couldn't.
She by no means simply gave in to him on every point or let him walk on her, but that, I would say, is a healthy thing for the marriage rather than anything contributive to any fundamental difficulty in it.
Mr. JENNER. Have you completed your answer?
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Senator COOPER. May I ask a question?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Senator COOPER. Did Marina ever indicate to you in any way whether or not she felt, after she came to the United States and saw Lee Oswald in his country in which he had been born and reared, that she found him unintelligent or a person of mean ability, small ability or poor background?
Did she ever have any comment in any way on his being inferior?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall her ever commenting in that way.
Mr. JENNER. Was she disappointed in any way after he returned to the United States?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall her ever saying that.
I had heard Mrs. Ford express such an opinion.
Mr. JENNER. That would be hearsay?
Mrs. PAINE. That would be hearsay.
Mr. JENNER. Did you know, are you familiar with the report that appeared in the Fort Worth Press on January 15, 1964, reporting that you had told Marvin Lane that Lee could not have taken the rifle from your garage and gone to practice without your knowledge?
Do you recall that?
Mrs. PAINE. I do.
Mr. JENNER. Mark Lane.
Mrs. PAINE. It is Mark but that perhaps was in the Fort Worth Press. I recall that.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever make that statement to a reporter for the Fort Worth Press?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, I did; with slight variation. It always came out a more definite statement in the press than I meant to make it.
Mr. JENNER. What did you say to the reporter then?
Mrs. PAINE. I said I did not see how he could have taken the gun from the garage without my knowing it. There were two weekends particularly in question which had been reported in the Press that someone had seen him at a firing range, one being the weekend of the 9th and 10th, and I was home virtually all of that weekend except Monday the 11th as I have already described.
The other being the following weekend, and I didn't see how he could have the weekend he was not out at my house, I didn't see how he could have come out, taken the gun, gone away without my knowledge, and if the gun had not been in that garage that weekend, I didn't see what the purpose of his coming out the 21st of November was in the situation.
And this is what I told Mr. Tackett of the Fort Worth Press.
Mr. JENNER. Did you also tell Mr. Tackett in addition to, that his reasons for his not engaging in rifle practice that weekend or any other weekend was
that he couldn't drive an automobile?
Mrs. PAINE. Very probably.
Mr. JENNER. And also that he couldn't have walked that far for rifle practice?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. By that far I mean there is no place you can walk to from my house, not only not to the firing range, but to an open enough place where you could fire. It would be difficult to walk that far.
Mr. JENNER. Where was the firing-range at which it was suggested he practiced?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't know exactly. It was in the Grand Prairie area, just south of where we are located. But it would be a 15-minute car drive I would expect.
Mr. JENNER. From your home to the firing range. Do you know, did you ever go to the firing range to see where it really was located?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I never did.
Mr. JENNER. You are relying on the newspapers, are you?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. When you say thinking of its location you are thinking of the general location of Grand Prairie, Tex.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Senator COOPER. Were you asked to give your opinion on that?
Mrs. PAINE. I think so.
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Senator COOPER. Why would you submit that as your conclusion that he could not have taken the rifle away, could not have got to a firing range?
Mrs. PAINE. The only thing--well--it had been reported in the press that he had been seen at a firing range or someone said he had seen him, Oswald, at a firing range on the weekend of the 9th, 10th, and the following weekend and it seemed to me important to say what I could on the subject if I had any contrary information, and I did any time the reporters asked me about
Senator COOPER. When you made a statement about the rifle, were you considering the fact that he had left your house on the morning of the 21st before You got
Mrs. PAINE. I don't understand the question.
Senator COOPER. The 22d, yes.
Mrs. PAINE. Let me say in making such a statement to the Press, I was not implying that I didn't think Oswald had taken a gun from my house on the morning of the 22d. Now, you ask the question again and perhaps I will understand it better.
Senator COOPER. Were you referring to two weekends when he left your house in saying that he couldn't take the gun or were you including also the morning of the 22d?
Mrs. PAINE. I was definitely not including the morning of the 22d.
Mr. JENNER. May I proceed, Mr. Chairman.
Senator COOPER Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know of any occasion when Lee and Marina did or might have visited the welfare office of the Salvation Army on your return from Dallas?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Having in mind all your contact with them during that period, do you have an opinion as to whether that could have taken place, that they did visit the Salvation Army Welfare Office?
Mrs. PAINE. It was suggested that this was in the fall of the year?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. PAINE. I don't know of any time that they could have.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall in your discussion with Mr. Randle when the matter of the Texas School Book Depository possible employment came up, did you make a statement to Mrs. Randle suggesting that she not mention to anyone that Marina was of Russian birth?
Mrs. PAINE. After he bad been hired I told Mrs. Randle that Lee was worried about losing his Job, and asked her if she would mention to Wesley that he was worried about this, and would prefer for it not to be talked about where he worked, that he had a Russian wife as that would, therefore, bring up the subject of his having been in Russia and, therefore, the subject of his having tried to change his citizenship there, and she said to me oh, she was certain that Wesley would not talk about it.
Mr. JENNER. That was the extent of the conversation?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. And its thrust, rather than the cryptic thrust I have given it?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know a Frank Krystinik?
Mrs. PAINE. I do.
Mr. JENNER. He is an associate of your husband?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have occasion to say to him at any time that Lee Oswald was not properly taking care of his wife and children?
Mrs. PAINE. I could well have given him that impression or given him that impression through Michael. I didn't very often see Frank.
Mr. JENNER. But you could have made that remark to him?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You made similar remarks to others?
Mrs. PAINE. Indeed, I have.
Mr. JENNER. During the time you visited with your mother-in-law, Mrs. Young, did you say to her that Lee wished his wife to return to Russia alone?
Mrs. PAINE. I very probably did.
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Mr. JENNER. And also that he did not wish his wife to learn to speak English?
Mrs. PAINE. I would judge that I did.
Mr. JENNER. And that Marina did not wish to return to Russia?
Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.
Senator COOPER. While you are getting your papers together can I ask a few questions?
Mr. JENNER. Surely.
Senator COOPER. I refer to November 22 when the police came and you and Marina went into the garage with the police, you testified about that. Then you discovered that there wasn't anything in the blanket.
Now, at a later time, I believe you testified that the police showed Marina a rifle and asked her if she could identify this rifle that she had seen in Lee's possession.
What did she say about it?
Mrs. PAINE. She said that her husband's rifle had been a dark gun, that she was not certain that that was the one. That she could not absolutely recall whether there had been a telescopic sight on his gun or not.
Senator COOPER. Was she speaking in Russian?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Senator COOPER. Were you translating?
Mrs. PAINE. No, Mr. Mamantov.
Senator COOPER. Were you following what she said?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; indeed.
Senator COOPER. How did she designate the sight? What words?
Mrs. PAINE. It is a Russian word that sounded to me like binocular, as I recall.
Senator COOPER. Did she refer to it as a sighting device not in the words sighting device, but did her language in substance as she described it give reference to it as a sight on the rifle?
Mrs. PAINE. My judgment is that Mr. Mamantov used the word in reference to it first, you see, and then she simply used the same word.
Asking her was she acquainted with this, and giving the word in Russian, and she said she wasn't certain she had seen that binocular or whatever the word used was on the gun.
Senator COOPER. Now, at any time on the 22d, after she had admitted that she had seen a rifle before, and in your talk with her, either on the way into the police station or any other time, did she say anything more about having seen the rifle before?
Mrs. PAINE. No; she didn't.
Senator COOPER. To you? What?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Senator COOPER. Did you know who brought Lee Oswald to your house from Dallas when he would come for his visits?
Mrs. PAINE. After he had gotten his Job it was my understanding that he came with Wesley Frazier.
Senator COOPER. Did you ever hear him say that anyone else brought him to your house?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I didn't.
Senator COOPER. Did he ever say that any fellow worker at the Depository brought him to the house?
Mrs. PAINE. Other than Wesley Frazier; no.
Senator COOPER. Did he ever mention by name or any description any of the people with whom he worked at the Depository?
Mrs. PAINE. Except for Wesley; no.
Senator COOPER. He never mentioned any one of his fellow workers, associates there?
Mrs. PAINE. None.
Senator COOPER. Did he ever refer to them in any way as liking or disliking them as a group or as individuals?
Mrs. PAINE. No; he didn't.
Senator COOPER. In your talks with him or in hearing him talk did he ever refer to any persons who were friends of his or associates?
Mrs. PAINE. I never heard him mention anyone.
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Senator COOPER. He never mentioned the name of any person?
Mrs. PAINE. Not anyone. He mentioned a friend in Houston as I have already testified, no name and I was wondering whether there was any such friend, I recall that. That is absolutely the only reference I can recall.
Senator COOPER. You said that you told someone that Marina did not agree with his political views?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Senator COOPER. How did you know that?
Mrs. PAINE. She told me she wasn't interested in politics. She told me indeed that Lee complained about her lack of interest.
Senator COOPER. That is something different from saying that she didn't agree with them.
Mrs. PAINE. Well, she did say that she didn't like his having passed out leaflets in New Orleans. This is still different from saying she disagreed, though. But that is the most I can say.
Senator COOPER. Did she ever tell her what her political views were, if any?
Mrs. PAINE. She said she didn't consider herself a person interested in politics. She--
Senator COOPER. Did she ever refer to Lee being a Marxist or a Communist?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall such a reference ever.
Senator COOPER. Did she ever tell you whether or not she was a Marxist or a Communist?
Mrs. PAINE. No. I assumed she was not either.
Senator COOPER. What?
Mrs. PAINE. I assumed she was not either. She did at one point poke fun at the Party faithful who attended a Young Communist meeting in Minsk, whom she considered a dull lot and the meetings quite dull.
Senator COOPER. I missed the early part of your testimony so you may have testified to this, but I thought that I recalled that you did answer a question addressed to you by someone, a member of the Commission or counsel, in which you said that you were attracted to the Oswalds when you first met them, one, because you wanted to perfect your own Russian, and did you say, too, that you were interested because of the fact that he had been a defector and had returned and it was an unusual circumstance which interested you?
Mrs. PAINE. It made him an odd person.
Senator COOPER. What?
Mrs. PAINE. It made him an odd person. I was interested in the curious sense of what could have motivated him to do this.
Senator COOPER. Having that interest, didn't you ever talk to him about it, inquire about his experience?
Mrs. PAINE. I guess I wasn't interested enough.
Senator COOPER. What led him to do it?
Mrs. PAINE. And as I have already testified he always wanted to speak Russian to me, which shortens my tongue. I can't say as much or raise as many questions.
Senator COOPER. Well, did you try to search out the reasons for his defection and the reasons for returning?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I didn't.
Senator COOPER And his political views, his economic views, that kind of thing?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I regret now that I didn't take any interest, but I did not.
Senator COOPER. You said that, in answer to counsel that, you either did tell people or probably told them that you believed Lee Oswald was a Communist.
Mrs. PAINE. It is my impression I spoke of him as he spoke of himself as a Marxist.
Senator COOPER. And you think, you believe, that has some relationship to communism?
Mrs. PAINE. Oh; yes.
Senator COOPER. I think you have stated that you didn't believe it was necessary for a person to actually be a member of the Communist Party to be a Communist in his views?
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Mrs. PAINE. Yes. But that I considered it something less than actually accurate to call such a person a Communist that went on being--
Senator COOPER. Other than the persons you have named in your testimony as having come to your house, was there anyone else who ever came to your house, who talked to Lee Oswald or Marina?
Mrs. PAINE. I recall no one other than the people I have mentioned, sir.
Senator COOPER. Knowing that he was as you have described in your own words, a Marxist, were you concerned at all about that or worried about that, as being in your home?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, as I have described in testimony, I asked myself whether or not he might be a spy. I was not at all worried about ideology contrary to my own or with which I disagreed, and it looked to me that he was a person of this ideology or philosophy which he calls Marxism, indeed nearly a religion.
But not that he was in any way dangerous because of these beliefs.
Senator COOPER. Thinking now and then that he might be a spy or in the employ of the Soviet Union, were you concerned about the fact that such person who might be a spy or an agent of the Soviet Union was living in your house?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, if you recall my testimony I concluded that he was not, and also I was pleased that the FBI had come and I felt that they would worry about that, and that I didn't need to worry about any risk to me of public censure for my befriending such a person.
Senator COOPER. You told about the newspapers and periodicals that he received and read.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Senator COOPER. Did he also have any books that he read while he was at your house?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall his reading books while he was at my house. He watched television a great deal but I don't recall his reading books.
Senator COOPER. You said that he did not have very ample means, financial means.
Were you struck with the fact that he was able to have these newspapers sent to him from Russia, England, New York?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, I observed--
Senator COOPER. The Communist Worker comes from New York.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, nothing from England, I recall, but he certainly considered these valuable. He was willing to spend money on these, I observed that, yes. It was rather unusual or unlike the rest of his behavior in that he did spend money for these periodicals.
Senator COOPER. Did you ever lend any money to either Marina or Lee Oswald?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Senator COOPER. What?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever give them any money?
Mrs. PAINE. Cash money; no.
Senator COOPER. What?
Mrs. PAINE. Cash; no.
Of course, I bought groceries but that is not what you are asking.
Senator COOPER. You gave no money in the sense that you turned over physical possession of it?
Mrs. PAINE. I did not.
Senator COOPER. To either Lee or Marina?
Mrs. PAINE. No; not at any time to either one.
Senator COOPER. You did help them in the sense that you provided a home for Marina and on occasion provided food for Lee?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Senator COOPER. 1 have just one or two more.
You said at one time you came to the conclusion that he wasn't an agent or spy because you didn't think he was intelligent enough.
I believe you said that.
Mrs. PAINE. That and the fact that as far as I could see had no contacts or any means of getting any information that would have been of any interest to the Soviet Union.
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Senator COOPER. Yet he was intelligent enough that he had learned to speak Russian.
Mrs. PAINE. His Russian was poor. His vocabulary was large, his grammar never was good.
Senator COOPER. You said that he had, I believe, had the initiative to go to Russia, not as a tourist but as for reasons that he had developed himself, and that he came back when he made up his mind to come and was able to bring his wife.
You knew he moved around rather quickly, didn't you? He was in New Orleans--
Mrs. PAINE. In this country?
Senator COOPER. Yes.
Mrs. PAINE. No, I knew he had been in Fort Worth and had come to Dallas to seek work and then losing work had gone back to New Orleans and then back to Dallas.
Senator COOPER. What made you willing to have this man, you have said, this very curious man, from all you have described about him, to have him in your house?
Mrs. PAINE. He was Marina's husband and I like her, and I, as I have described, was both lonely and interested in learning the Russian language. I would have been happy had he never come out, indeed happier had he not come out on the weekends.
But they were not separated as a married couple nor contemplating such separation, and I didn't feel that this- it was appropriate for him to have to stay away. I did not ask that.
Senator COOPER. Prior to the time that Marina left your home the day of the assassination, wasn't it?
Mrs. PAINE. She left the next day.
Senator COOPER. The next day.
Had you and Marina ever had any disputes or quarrels between yourselves?
Mrs. PAINE. I have referred to just one time when she in a sense was taking me to task on the matter of whose property their address was, I just mentioned that, that is the only time I recall.
Mr. JENNER. That is the incident in which you--
Mrs. PAINE. Following the November 5th meeting with Mr. Hosty.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Hosty.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Senator COOPER. You had said that, I believe you said, prior to the assassination you considered Lee Oswald as being violent or dangerous?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, now I have said that the thought crossed my mind once in relation to myself.
Senator COOPER. What caused that?
Mrs. PAINE. That he might be violent, because I thought he might resent my stepping in to do for his wife what he was not doing.
Senator COOPER. What made you think he would be violent about it if he wasn't caring about taking care of her?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, I wanted to satisfy myself, and I did then. The thought crossed my mind before I went to New Orleans for the second time as I have referred to it in a conversation with Mr. Rainey, before I went to New Orleans and then seeing him and changing my opinion some about him, I felt that he would not be violent or angry with me for this offer, and then proceeded with it, and this is the only--
Senator COOPER. I can understand why a person might be angry about something. But what about him led you to believe that he might be violent?
Mrs. PAINE. There was nothing that I could put my finger on. On the contrary my general impression was not of a man who would break out in sudden marked violence. He argued with his wife, and was distinctly unpleasant with her.
Senator COOPER. I believe you said the other day in answer to a question by Congressman Boggs that you held the opinion now that he did fire the rifle at the President.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I believe that is so but I don't know.
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Senator COOPER. From this vantage point, is there anything about him now which you think of which seems consistent with the fact that he, that you believe he did shoot the President, President Kennedy?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, what has led me to the conclusion that he did shoot President Kennedy is the massive circumstantial evidence that surrounds his relationship or where he was, what he had at the time of the assassination. Perhaps we should get into the matter of motive.
Senator COOPER. In other words, a person's personality, is there anything you can think of now which would change your mind or change the viewpoint that you held previously that he wasn't violent?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I still can recall no incident that I saw, nothing or thought at the time, with this small exception of the one reference to Mrs. Rainey that--
and that was a conjecture in reference to myself. Nothing that violent or indeed that insane.
Senator COOPER. Was it your opinion that Mrs. Oswald was shaken by the assassination and by the fact that her husband was charged with it?
Mrs. PAINE. She was certainly shaken on the afternoon when the policemen were out there, when he was at that time just charged with the shooting of Tippit. I never saw her after he was charged with the shooting of the President.
Senator COOPER. One other question: I think you said when Marguerite Oswald, Lee Oswald's mother, came to your house, and the Life people later appeared, you spoke of that, did you say that both of them, both Marina and Marguerite, seemed to be interested in making some kind of a deal with Life in order to get money?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Senator COOPER. Or were you speaking only of Marguerite Oswald?
Mrs. PAINE. I was speaking only of Marguerite Oswald. I could add here that Marina appeared to me to want to be courteous and polite toward her mother-in-law, and wished to go along with whatever wishes Marguerite had on the subject.
Senator COOPER. Has anyone tried to make any kind of a business transaction for your statement or story
Mrs. PAINE. At that time or since?
Senator COOPER. Since.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
SENATOR COOPER. What?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. The Commission has a copy of an article that was written for Look which was not published and will not be.
Senator COOPER. Has that been testified?
Mr. JENNER. Will not be what?
Mrs. PAINE. Published. It is now my property and I don't plan to, I have no plans presently, at least.
Senator COOPER. Just for the record, have you entered into any kind of business transaction by which you would be paid for a story about this assassination?
Mrs. PAINE. I will not be paid for any story I write, and I am certain now
I don't want to write any such story. I have, however, worked with Miss Jessamyn West, who is an author for an article which will appear in Time and Red Book magazine, or I expect it will. She is writing that, she talked to me.
Mr. JENNER. She approached you on that article?
Mrs. PAINE. No one approached me in that article. Was already decided before I was asked. But that is-----
Mr. JENNER. Who decided it?
Mrs. PAINE. I had implied that I would be willing to do this, but not to anyone I thought was making an offer. This is aside.
Mr. JENNER. This was an offer to help the subject of the interview being interviewed?
Mrs. PAINE. All I really should say in clarification here is that there was bad communication between Red Book, Miss West and myself, and she was under the impression that I had agreed to do this before she had in fact been contacted, but then the fact of Red Book and Miss West thinking that this was something I had agreed to I then did agree to do it.
(Discussion off the record.)
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Senator COOPER. Back on the record.
Have you been paid or promised any monetary consideration for any article that you might write or you might assist someone else in writing about your experiences connected with the Oswalds?
Mrs. PAINE. The complete answer to that would be that I received a $300 advance from Look magazine for helping in the writing of that article which will not appear, and that I have been told I will receive $500 from Red Book magazine for helping Miss West in writing that, and if you want, I will tell you what I think about what I want to do with this money but perhaps that is not pertinent.
Senator COOPER. If you want to?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, I plan to give it away.
Mr. JENNER. You mean give it to charity?
Mrs. PAINE. To charity.
Senator COOPER. That is all I have.
Mr. JENNER. You have referred to a Look magazine article in the preparation of which you have assisted. I have marked as Commission Exhibit No. 460 a document which I received from Mr. George Harris, after you had authorized me to call him and ask for it.
Would you glance through that and verify that that is the article in the final form?
You have examined Commission Exhibit 460. Is that the Look article to which you have made reference in your testimony here this afternoon?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And that article, however, is not one to be published?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Did you look over that article in this final form and approve it as to text and statements made in it?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; although I don't think the final draft had been done or final approval given before it was decided that it would not be used.
Mr. JENNER. But as this exhibit stands, Commission Exhibit No. 460, the text and statements that are made in there had your approval?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; they are, of course, not all of my words.
Mr. JENNER. Of course, not. The article was written by?
Mrs. PAINE. By George Harris, who is a senior editor on Look magazine, and he wrote it from typed copy he had directly as he had taken it from my telling.
Mr. JENNER. So it is, to use somewhat of a vernacular, it is ghost written?
Mrs. PAINE. It is ghost written but most of it is my words.
Mr. JENNER. I offer in evidence, as Commission Exhibit No. 460, the document we have just identified.
Senator COOPER. It will be received in evidence.
(The document referred to, heretofore identified as Commission Exhibit No. 460, was received in evidence.)
Mr. JENNER. Do you have an interest in the Russian language as has appeared
from your testimony?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, are you now or have you ever been a member of the Communist Party?
Mrs. PAINE. I am not now and have never been a member of the Communist Party.
Mr. JENNER. Do you now or have you ever had any leanings which we might call Communist Party leanings.
Mrs. PAINE. No; on the contrary.
Mr. JENNER. Are you now or have you ever been a member of any groups which you consciously recognize as being, let us say, Communist front groups?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I have not and I would be quite certain I had not been unconsciously a member of any such groups.
Mr. JENNER. I take it from your response that you have an aversion to communism?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I do.
Mr. JENNER. And would be at pains and have been at pains during your adult life, at least, to avoid any association with or any advancement of communism as we know and abhor it?
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Mrs. PAINE. Yes; that is right.
If I may say here, I am offended by the portion of the Communist doctrine that thinks violence is necessary to achieve its aims. I am likewise offended by the doctrine that any means to what is considered a good end is legitimate.
I, on the contrary, feel that there is no justification at any time for deception, and the Communists, as I have observed their activity, have no reluctance to deceive, and this offends me seriously.
Mr. JENNER. In that thinking, violence also impels you against the Communist faith?
Mrs. PAINE. It certainly does.
Mr. JENNER. Or political doctrine?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; their espousal of violence repels me.
Mr. JENNER. You have an interest in the Russian language?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I do.
Mr. JENNER. Now, the members of the Commission, all of them are interested in how you came to have your interest in the Russian language, and they would like to have you indicate when it first arose and under what circumstances and what impelled you to have an interest in the Russian language; start from the very beginning of your life in that connection--that episode in your life?
Mrs. PAINE. All right. To be really the very beginning I will start and say I have been interested in other languages before being interested in Russian. I studied French in high school, German in college, and got a tutor to study Yiddish when I was working with a group that spoke that language.
Mr. JENNER. That is the Golden Age group of the Young--
Mrs. PAINE. Men and Young Women--
Mr. JENNER. Hebrew Association in Philadelphia?
Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. At that time you were employed by?
Mrs. PAINE. That organization.
Mr. JENNER. By that organization. And were you doing work in connection with this plan of Antioch College?
Mrs. PAINE. No; that was after I had completed my work at Antioch.
Mr. JENNER. I see.
Mrs. PAINE. Well, I do believe I did get some credit for that year at Antioch
although I had completed my academic work, I was still getting some credit for my job credit, that is.
Mr. JENNER. All right, proceed.
Mrs. PAINE. And then I was working with a group of young Quakers, had been indeed for sometime.
Mr. JENNER. Please fix a little more definite time, please?
Mrs. PAINE. I began my interest in young Quakers in 1947.
Mr. JENNER. In 1947?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. As quite a young girl?
Mrs. PAINE. When my interest also began in the Quaker church.
Mr. JENNER. You were then what, you were 19 years old?
Mrs. PAINE. I was going on 15, as a matter of fact.
Mr. JENNER. Going on 15?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. You were going to high school?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Where were you living then?
Mrs. PAINE. I was living in Columbus, Ohio.
Mr. JENNER. And you became interested in the Quaker faith then or at least
in the Quaker activity?
Mrs. PAINE. Both.
Mr. JENNER. And were you a member of the Friends Society, young people's society in Columbus at that time?
Mrs. PAINE. I attended the meeting which is the Quaker church in Columbus. They didn't have enough young people to have a society in that particular meeting. But then in college I became active in the national young Friends group.
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Mr. JENNER. What is the official name of that?
Mrs. PAINE. The name at that time was the Young Friends Committee of North America. It included Canada young Friends. And in this connection I was, I served, as Chairman or Conference Coordinator for a conference of young friends that was held in 1955.
Mr. JENNER. Where?
Mrs. PAINE. At Quaker Haven, Ind.
Mr. JENNER. Did you attend that?
Mrs. PAINE. I did. It was at this conference, toward the latter part, part of really arising out of a discussion of the need for communication and more of it between the United States and the Soviet Union by no means the bulk of the business of this conference, but a small committee of interested people, was working on this matter.
Mr. JENNER. Are these interested young people?
Mrs. PAINE. These are all young Friends.
Mr. JENNER. And you were then of what age, 1955. 23?
Senator COOPER. 9 years ago?
Mrs. PAINE. 22, going on 23, that is right.
Mr. JENNER. 22 going on 23. Was this in the summer time?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Vacation period?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. I see. By the way, Mrs. Paine, you had been to England, had you not, in some activity of the Friends Society back in 1952?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. That was what meeting did you attend, and as a delegate of what?
Mrs. PAINE. I was selected as a delegate of the Lake Erie Association which
is the larger group to which my meeting in Columbus belonged.
Mr. JENNER. Your Quaker meeting?
Mrs. PAINE. My Quaker meeting. To go as a delegate to the Friends world conference held at Oxford, England, in the summer of 1952. I also attended a young Friends conference held in Reading, England, just before the larger conference. Shall I return now to the conference at Quaker Haven in 1955?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. PAINE. I felt a calling in Friends terminology at that conference.
Mr. JENNER. An impulse, a desire, is that what you mean, a pulling?
Mrs. PAINE. More than that, that God asked of me that I study language, and I can't say that it was specifically said what language. This was at the time that plans first began for encouraging an exchange of young people between the Soviet Union and the United States, and I became active with the committee planning that, and from that planning there was an exchange, three Soviet young people came to this country and four young Quakers went to the Soviet Union, and I was very much impressed with the dearth of people in this country who could speak Russian. Here was a need for communication with people we had to live with, although we disagreed with them, certainly disagreed with the government, and the first elements of communication, the language, was not available among most young people, and even among older people in the country. My letter of June 18, 1959, marked Commission Exhibit No. 459-1 contains a statement of my motivation to study Russian. So it was this really that started me upon a course of study in Russian. Then once started, I was more propelled by my interest in the language itself. Shall I describe what training I have had?
Mr. JENNER. Well, please. I want to cover something else before that. I offer Commission Exhibit No. 459-1 in evidence.
The CHAIRMAN. It is received.
Mr. JENNER. Was there a movement also in this connection which you are now describing of a pen pal communication between young people here in America and young people in Russia?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have anything to do with that?
Mrs. PAINE. There was a subcommittee of this Young Friends Committee of North America which was called East-West Contact Committee.
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Mr. JENNER. Were you the leader of that committee?
Mrs. PAINE. I was not. But I was chairman of a committee of that committee, which was called Correspondence, and I helped make contact between young people in this country who wished to write to someone in the Soviet Union, and an organization of young people in Moscow which found pen pals for these young Americans.
We particularly wanted to go through an official organization so as to be certain we were not endangering or putting suspicion upon anyone, any young person in the Soviet Union to whom we were writing. We felt if they picked their own people that would lessen the suspicion of the Soviet person.
Mr. JENNER. Were you active in that group?
Mrs. PAINE. I was chairman of that for sometime.
Mr. JENNER. Did you take part in the pen pal correspondence yourself?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did.
Mr. JENNER. And do you recall now the names of the Russian young people or Russian young person with whom you communicate, or sought communication?
Mrs. PAINE. I recall I wrote a few letters to a person named Ella, I have forgotten her last name, and I don't believe I have the correspondence still. If I did, I don't any more.
Mr. JENNER. If you once had it?
Mrs. PAINE. If I once had it, I don't have it now in my possession, and then that stopped because she stopped writing. I wrote and got another correspondent whose name is Nina Aparina, with whom I corresponded up to last spring, I would say, and I haven't--yes; and I haven't heard anything from her for about a year.
Mr. JENNER. What was the nature of the correspondence, particularly with respect to subject matter?
Mrs. PAINE. We discussed?
Mr. JENNER. In this letter period?
Mrs. PAINE. We discussed our mutual interest in language. She was a teacher of the English language. She married an engineer during the time of our correspondence.
Mr. JENNER. Russian?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; of course.
Mr. JENNER. Russian citizen?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. We exchanged a magnetic tape recording one time. I sent her one and she sent one with music and readings, hers were music and readings in Russian, and mine was similar in English as part of language study aid.
My last communication said she was expecting a baby last June but I haven't heard anything from her since that communication, as I say, probably a year ago that came.
Mr. JENNER. Now all of your activity, this activity, of correspondence between you and any citizen in Russia, was part of it, originated in the Young Friends group, an activity to supply here a meeting with, communication by, Americans with citizens in Russia, and then latterly in your communication with the lady you have last mentioned, a mutual exchange between the two of you here to improve her English and you to improve your Russian?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right. The committee was formed much the same time that our State Department made arrangements with the Soviets for cultural exchange, and I think our Purposes were similar but, of course, outside the government.
Mr. JENNER. Now the three Russian students who came over here, did you have any contact with them?
Mrs. PAINE. I met them once at an open meeting in North Philadelphia.
Mr. JENNER. Were a number of other people present?
Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes.
Mr. JENNER. And that is the only contact you had with them?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Proceed.
Mrs. PAINE. Except that I read a book that was written by one of these students nearly a year after he had gone back to the Soviet Union which I found most disillusioning, I must say, in which it was pure Propaganda.
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Mr. JENNER. He sought to report what his experiences here were in America?
Mrs. PAINE. He sought to report on this trip that he had taken, that we had worked to achieve.
Mr. JENNER. Did you regard him as fair or accurate, that is, what you read?
Mrs. PAINE. What I read of the book he wrote was extremely inaccurate and unfair.
Mr. JENNER. Did it misrepresent America as you knew it?
Mrs. PAINE. Misrepresented America, certainly.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mrs. PAINE. Shall I go on now to what I have studied?
Mr. JENNER. Yes. Have you had any formal education in the study of the Russian language?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I have. I attended a concentrated summer course at the University of Pennsylvania in the summer of 1957 where, during the course of 6 weeks, we completed a first year college Russian text.
Mr. JENNER. What year did you say that was?
Mrs. PAINE. I believe that was 1957.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mrs. PAINE. And then I had difficulty keeping that up, keeping Russian up over the next year, but the following year I was no longer teaching and took a course at Berlitz School of Languages in Philadelphia in Russian, and improved by ability to converse, and it helped me to recall what I had gone through rather too fast in this accelerated course.
I then applied for the summer course at the Middlebury College summer language school in Middlebury, Vt., in the summer of 1959 and attended that 7-week course. At Middlebury they required that you speak nothing but the language you are studying the entire time, both in class and out. This was very valuable though very difficult.
Mr. JENNER. Who was your instructor?
Mrs. PAINE. There?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. PAINE. I took three courses. Natalie Yershov.
Mr. JENNER. You were relating, Mrs. Paine, you recalled one of your instructors at Middlebury?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall the name of any other?
Mrs. PAINE. Offhand I can't recall. I recall certainly the director of the school but he was not an instructor of mine.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have a roommate?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did.
Mr. JENNER. What was your roommate's name?
Mrs. PAINE. Her name was Helen Mamikonian.
Mr. JENNER. Is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Do you still have contact with her?
Mrs. PAINE. It has been a long time since I have written but we have exchanged Christmas cards.
Mr. JENNER. Christmas cards and an occasional letter?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Where does she live?
Mrs. PAINE. She lives and works in Boston where she is a teacher of Russian language at Simmons College, as I recall.
Mr. JENNER. Did she at one time live in New York City?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; her home is New York. She spent her high school years there after having immigrated from France, and I believe her mother still lives there, is a tutor for the Berlitz School in Russian in New York.
Mr. JENNER. Her mother is?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Now we have your study at Pennsylvania, University of Pennsylvania, and your study at the Berlitz School in Philadelphia, was it?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
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Mr. JENNER. And your study at Middlebury College. What additional formal or at least let us say semiformal instruction or education have you had in the Russian language?
Mrs. PAINE. I then moved to the Dallas area to the place where I presently live in Irving, and then I would guess it was early in 1960 I took up some study again at the Berlitz School in Dallas, completed a course which I had paid for in Philadelphia, and then went on after that with Private lessons with Mrs. Gravitis, who has already been mentioned.
Mr. JENNER. Is Mrs. Gravitis also an instructor in the Berlitz School in Dallas?
Mrs. PAINE. I met her because she was an instructor for a short time there and I think is yet on call to them as an instructor.
Mr. JENNER. Does that cover your formal education in the Russian language?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it does.
Mr. JENNER. Now, are you a teacher of Russian?
Mrs. PAINE. I have one student whom I teach beginning Russian.
Mr. JENNER. Is that a connection with an established institution?
Mrs. PAINE. It began in connection with an established institution during the summer of 1963, at the Saint Marks School of Texas in Dallas, Tex.
Mr. JENNER. And you were the teacher of Russian in the Saint Marks School during that quarter or summer term?
Mrs. PAINE. Summer term.
Mr. JENNER. And arising out of that has been your engagement as a tutor, is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Who is your student?
Mrs. PAINE. My student's name is Bill H-U-T-K-I-N-S.
Mr. JENNER. Is he, what is he, a young man?
Mrs. PAINE. I am sorry, it is H-O-O-T-K-I-N-S.
Mr. JENNER. How old is he?
Mrs. PAINE. He turned 15 in the summer.
Mr. JENNER. Is he a native American so far as you know?
Mrs. PAINE. As far as I know, yes.
Mr. JENNER. Is it your--has it been also your desired objective on your part to teach Russian as a regular instructor or teacher in the public or private schools?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I would like to do that.
Mr. JENNER. That is still your hope and desire?
Mrs. PAINE. It interests me very much.
Mr. JENNER. And it has been for sometime an objective of yours, has it?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. I will ask you a couple of general questions. First, I will probably repeat this when I examine you in your deposition also, Mrs. Paine, but I desire to have it on this record before the Commission, is there anything that has come to your mind that you would like to relate to the Commission which you think might be helpful to it in its deliberations in consideration of the serious problems and events into which they are inquiring?
Mrs. PAINE. There are a few small items I hope we will get into tomorrow.
Mr. JENNER. Would you please state them as to subject matter, at least. Would they take very long for you to state?
Mrs. PAINE. I will make an attempt to be brief here. I recall that Lee once used my typewriter to type something else beside this note, is that what you want?
Mr. JENNER. Yes; would you turn and direct your remarks to the Chairman, to Senator Cooper, so we can all hear you and you might speak up a lit fie bit, your voice has been dropping.
Mrs. PAINE. I am tired.
I recall that Lee once asked to borrow my typewriter and used it to type something I judged was a letter at sometime prior to this day November 9, when he typed a letter which we have a rough draft. This is probably no use to you.
Mr. JENNER. That is what I call the Mexico letter?
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Mrs. PAINE. That is what you call it, all right.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Give the exhibit.
Mrs. PAINE. It is Exhibit No. 103.
Mr. JENNER. Thank you.
Mrs. PAINE. I want to know whether you want to inquire of me my account of Secret Service agents having come and asked me, having come out to the house after the assassination to ask me if I had ever seen a particular note which they had. And I have later assumed that this is what has been referred to in the press as the note written by Oswald at the time of the attempt on Walker and if you want I will make it clear all I know in relation to that.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; I recall that incident and I wish you would, please.
Mrs. PAINE. And then the other thing is simply to invite the members of the Commission, but if it is a deposition I can't do that then, to feel free to ask me any questions that are not settled in their mind or clear regarding the separation which existed between myself and my husband, if that is troublesome in any way or if there is anything in which--
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, if that doesn't embarrass you, members of the Commission have voiced to me some interest in that, that is an interest only to the extent they are seeking to resolve in their mind who Ruth Paine is and if I may use the vernacular, what makes her tick, so would you relate that now on the Commission record, please?
Mrs. PAINE. All right. I might say that I think it is important and relevant here because if I had not been separated from my husband I would have not as I think I have already testified, made an invitation to anyone to join the family circle, especially in such a small house.
Really, I might ask if you have questions it might be easier for me to answer
Mr. JENNER. Perhaps we can bring it along in this fashion. What was the cause of the separation between your husband and yourself, in your view?
Mrs. PAINE. In my view, of course, yes. He expressed himself as not really interested in remaining married to me. We never quarreled. We never indeed have had any serious difference of opinion except I want to live with him and he is not that interested in being with me, would be our single difference of opinion.
And in the spring of 1962 1 felt that something more definite should be done, and asked Michael why he continued to live with me if he felt that way about it, and he said that it was easier and cost less, and I said that wasn't a good enough reason for a marriage, and asked him to be out of the house in the fall when I returned from summer vacation that year.
Mr. JENNER. That was 1962?
Mrs. PAINE. 1962, yes. I would say our marriage is marked both by mutual honesty, that is exceptional, and by a lack of overt or interior strife except that it hasn't quite come together as a mutual partnership.
My mother recently said to me that "If you would just look only at what Michael does there is nothing wrong with your marriage at all. It is just what he says", and I concur with her opinion on that, that he is so scrupulously honest with his own feelings that, and really too hard on himself in a sense, that he states verbally this is not feeling that he loves me or loves me enough, but in fact his actions toward me are totally acceptable to me.
Mr. JENNER. Is he gracious and kind and attentive to you?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Has he always been?
Mrs. PAINE. Insufficiently attentive, I would say, but he is always kind and thoughtful.
Mr. JENNER. Have you had any financial differences of opinion?
Mrs. PAINE. We have not.
Mr. JENNER. He even during this period of time when you were separated, he voluntarily supported the household and you lived in a manner and style that suited you or to which you had become accustomed?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, that is right.
Mr. JENNER. You had no arguments about matters of that nature?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
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Mr. JENNER. Your husband has returned to your home?
Mrs. PAINE. He is living there now.
Mr. JENNER. How long has that been?
Mrs. PAINE. He has been staying there since the night of November 22. He didn't move his belongings in until the middle of the following week.
Mr. JENNER. Would you say this is a reconciliation?
Mrs. PAINE. I can't say that.
Mr. JENNER. You cannot.
Do you wish to say any more in the statement of yours?
Mrs. PAINE. Not unless you have questions. I think it is an accurate statement of the marriage.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
What brought this forth was my asking you if you had anything you would like to bring before the Commission.
Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Are there any others?
Mrs. PAINE. I can think of nothing else.
Mr. JENNER. To the best of your present recollection are the statements and the testimony you gave, you have given so far, before the Commission consistent with Statements you have given to the FBI, to Secret Service, to magazine reporters, editors, to anyone?
Mrs. PAINE. The statements I have given here are fully consistent with anything I have said before except that the statement here has been much fuller than any single previous statement.
Mr. JENNER. And you have testified to matters and things before the Commission about which, which you did not relate or even had occasion to relate in your mind, at least, to FBI agents, to Secret Service agents and to the others that you have identified in general terms?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, you and I had the opportunity, you afforded me the privilege of speaking with you before your testimony commenced, before the Commission. And also I think the first day of your testimony you were gracious enough to return here to the Commission room and we spent several hours talking?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. As a matter of fact, we left around 12:30, a quarter of one in the morning, did we not?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, that is right, we did.
Mr. JENNER. Now, recalling back to those periods of conferences with me, do you have any feeling or notion whatsoever that any of your testimony before the Commission was in any degree whatsoever, inconsistent with anything you related to me?
Mrs. PAINE. Oh, no; I don't think so, not in any way.
Mr. JENNER. Not in any way. Do you have any feeling whatsoever that during the course of my conferences with you, outside this Commission, that I influenced or sought to shape your testimony in any respect?
Mrs. PAINE. No. Clearly I felt no influence from you.
Mr. JENNER. All of the statements that you related to me were free and voluntary on your part, and not given under any coercion, light or heavy, as the case might be, on my part.
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, there are some additional matters we wish to examine the witness about and Representative Ford has given me a rather long list of questions he asked me to cover. He regretted that was necessary because of his enforced absence, and Mrs. Paine has agreed that she would be available in the morning, and I may examine her by way of deposition before a reporter under oath, and with that understanding of the Commission, of you, Mr. Chairman, I would at this moment as far as the staff is concerned, close the formal testimony of Mrs. Paine before the Commission, with advice to you, sir, that tomorrow morning I will cover additional matters by way of deposition.
Senator COOPER. As I understand the matters you will go into by deposition will not be any new evidence in the sense of substance but more to
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Mr. JENNER. I can tell you what they are, it will be her background, some of which she has now given in regard to her study of the Russian language.
More formal proof of her calendar, and her address book. Also her general background which I have already mentioned. Some correspondence between herself and her mother, and the items that Mrs. Paine has now mentioned she would like to relate herself.
Mrs. PAINE. One of which we took care of already.
Mr. JENNER. One of which we took care of. We will cover those and I was going to ask her questions tomorrow, some of which we have already covered of Lee Harvey Oswald's personality and habits and actions.
I am going to ask here about Mrs. Shirley Martin, who has appeared on the scene since the assassination, and appears to be a self-appointed investigator, and to the extent that there has been any contact between Mrs. Paine and Mrs. Shirley Martin, and then inquire, I may not even do this because we have covered a very great deal of the conversations and discussions between Marina and Mrs. Paine on various possible subjects, and I can see from my list we have covered many of them already.
Senator COOPER. Let it be ordered that evidence will be taken this way, with this reservation, of course, if the Commission determines after studying the deposition that it would be necessary for her to be called again, you would be willing to come again before the Commission to testify.
Mrs. PAINE. I would certainly be willing if there is any need for my coming.
Mr. JENNER. In addition to this, Mr. Chairman, as I think already appears of record, I will come to Mrs. Paine's home in Irving, Tex., sometime on Monday or Monday evening or if she finds it more convenient, on Tuesday of next week to inquire of her with a court reporter present relative to the curtain red package, and I also will make a tour of her home and as we move about her home the reporter will record the conversation between us, questions and answers.
Senator COOPER. Are there any further questions?
Mr. JENNER. That is all. Thank you, sir.
Senator COOPER. All right, then we will stand in recess subject to the call of the Chairman of the Commission.
(Translations of letters introduced in evidence in the course of Mrs. Paine's testimony are reproduced in the exhibit volumes. )
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TESTIMONY Volume IX
TESTIMONY OF RUTH HYDE PAINE
The testimony of Ruth Hyde Paine was taken at 9:15 a.m., on March 21, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Messrs. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., and Norman Redlich, assistant counsels of the President's Commission.
Mr. JENNER. Let the record show that this is a continuation by deposition pursuant to leave granted by the Commission of Mrs. Paine's testimony before the Commission which we had concluded late in the day yesterday.1
I think it might be well, in view of that transition, if Mrs. Paine were sworn again, or if you were affirmed, rather.
The REPORTER Do you affirm that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mrs. PAINE. I do.
Mr. JENNER. I think we might cover your background to some extent, Mrs. Paine.
Mr. JENNER. My material indicates that you were born in New York City.
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. In 1932.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you remained in New York City until when?
----------------
1 The testimony of Mrs. Ruth Paine given before the Commission appears in another volume, and can be found by consulting the index.
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Mr. PAINE. I think that time I stayed about 2 weeks, just long enough to get out of the hospital.
Mr. JENNER. I see. Immediately after your birth, or substantially so?
Mrs. PAINE. My family moved to New Jersey.
Mr. JENNER. And your family moved to New Jersey. And you lived where?
Mrs. PAINE. I believe it was Park Ridge, N.J. We had lived there before, I remember.
Mr. JENNER. But do you recall then moving from Park Ridge, N.J.?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I first recall living in the country not far from Freehold, N.J.
Mr. JENNER. But you did eventually move to Columbus, Ohio?
Mrs. PAINE. We moved back to New York when I was 8, and from New York then moved to Columbus, Ohio.
Mr. JENNER. And what age were you when you moved to Columbus, Ohio?
Mrs. PAINE. I must have been 10 or about to be 10.
Mr. JENNER. And you attended elementary schools and high school in Columbus?
Mrs PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Is my information correct that you entered Antioch College at Antioch, Ohio, in 1950?
Mrs. PAINE. In Yellow Springs, Ohio, in 1949.
Mr. JENNER. 1949 was it?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you eventually received a degree from Antioch College?
Mrs. PAINE. I did, in 1955.
Mr. JENNER. You might state for the record what the character of Antioch College is. It is special in some respect, isn't it?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it has a work-study plan, whereby the students study a portion of the year and then go to jobs all over the country, to work in special fields, a job of their own interest, and the college helps to obtain these positions.
Mr. JENNER. And do you receive any kind of credit?
Mrs. PAINE. In order to graduate, you have to have both credit in the academic work and credit from your job placements.
Mr. JENNER. Does Antioch College--I know you said you were of the Quaker faith--does Antioch College have any connection with the Quaker faith?
Mrs. PAINE. No; it doesn't.
Mr. JENNER. What was your major at Antioch College?
Mrs. PAINE. I majored in education.
Mr. JENNER. And seeking to prepare yourself as a teacher?
Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And did you pursue that major or at least activities in connection with that major in your cooperative work?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did. I was also interested in group work and in recreation work, but there was no major in that field at Antioch, so my job placements were a combination of both work in elementary schools and group work.
Mr. JENNER. And have you pursued, really pursued your interests in group work ever since?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Or group activities, at least?
Mrs. PAINE. I pursued the dual interest of education and group work, yes, in the jobs I have sought.
Mr. JENNER. You had by that time already embraced the Quaker faith, hadn't you, when you entered Antioch, at the time you entered Antioch College?
Mrs. PAINE. At the time I entered I was not yet a member. I joined in the winter of 1951, so it was still a year and a quarter before I became a member.
Mr. JENNER. You mentioned 1947 yesterday. Was that a----
Mrs. PAINE. That was when I first became acquainted with the Quakers and their beliefs, and I was active in attending the Friends meeting in Columbus from that time on.
Mr. JENNER. Now, these cooperative studies, my information indicates that in the first quarter of 1950, that is, January through March, you were recreation
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instructor and a leader in the Jewish community at Indianapolis, Ind.
Mrs. PAINE, That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And do I correctly summarize in capsule form the nature of your work at the Jewish Community Center in Indianapolis?
Mrs. PAINE, Yes.
Mr. JENNER. That is recreation instructor and leader?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Then in the summer of 1950 you were a camp counselor at Big Eagle Camp at Indianapolis, Ind.?
Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Also, apparently--I am not certain of this--that during the summer of 1950 you served as a recreation leader of the American Friends Service Committee?
Mrs. PAINE No; that would have been the following summer.
Mr. JENNER. That would be 1951?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And where did that take place?
Mrs. PAINE. With the American Friends Service Committee?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. PAINE. That was in Rapid City, S. Dak., as part of an American Friends Service Committee work camp.
Mr. JENNER. And then in the fall quarter 1951, that is October, apparently, through January 1952, and then March through May of 1952 you were a recreation instructor and a leader in the Downtown Community School in New York City, N.Y.; is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE. That is after reentering Antioch.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. PAINE. Right. The job you describe was part of my work placement from Antioch College.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; I had so understood.
Mrs. PAINE, Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Thank you. And then the quarter October through December 1952 you were a recreation leader at the Jewish Community Center in the city of Columbus Recreation Department. Do I have those correctly stated?
Mrs. PAINE. That was period of 8 weeks; yes.
Mr. JENNER. And was your position a position of recreation leader?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it was.
Mr. JENNER. And that was part of the cooperative schedule; was it?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Then September and October 1953 and January through March 1954 you were an elementary school teacher at the Mad River Township School, Dayton, Ohio.
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. What did you teach?
Mrs. PAINE. I taught first graders, I particularly had the slow learning class.
Mr. JENNER. And that was part of the cooperative program at Antioch; was it?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it was.
Mr. JENNER. Then in the summer of 1954, June and July, my notes indicate a summer tour with the America Friends Service Committee; is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I recall that.
Mr. JENNER. Would you state what the nature of that was?
Mrs. PAINE. It was not with the American Friends Service Committee; it was with a different group of Friends, with the Friends----
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me--Friends in this connection is spelled with a capital F? Forgive my interruption.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, this was a tour sponsored by the Friends World Committee. We did some traveling and the tour included a summer term at Pendle Hill.
Mr. JENNER. Where is Pendle Hill?
Mrs. PAINE. Pendle Hill is in the Philadelphia suburban area, and it is a
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school for religious and social studies maintained by the Society of Quakers.
Mr. JENNER. Is it all one word, Pendlehill, or two words?
Mrs. PAINE. Two words.
Mr. JENNER. You told us yesterday that in the summer of 1952 you were a delegate to--state it again.
Mrs. PAINE. The Friends World Conference, at Oxford.
Mr. JENNER. Oxford, England?
Mrs. PAINE. England.
Mr. JENNER. And you also attended----
Mrs. PAINE. A Young Friends Conference.
Mr. JENNER. At Reading, England.
Mrs. PAINE. Right.
Mr. JENNER. Then the period August 1954 through May 1955, you were associated with the Young Men's Hebrew Association and the Young Women's He- brew Association of Philadelphia, Pa.?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. And you were particularly given an assignment, and I may say everybody anticipated it being a difficult one, of working with the Golden Age Club. Is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I had three club assignments and this was the one that took the most time.
Mr. JENNER. Would you please tell us what those assignments were? You say there were three.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I worked with the Golden Age Club as you have said, with a group of young adults, and also with an open lounge, lounge with games and playing cards, newspapers, for members' use.
Mr. JENNER. I think it would profit us in bringing out your background if you take those three groups and in capsule form tell us what your work in connection with those groups was. Take the Golden Age Club first. They were a group of what people?
Mrs. PAINE. The Golden Age Club consisted of people over the age of 60, all of them Jewish.
Mr. JENNER. Were they all emigres?
Mrs. PAINE. To the best of my knowledge, all or certainly nearly all emigres. In fact, most of them had come from, a good many of them had come from Kiev, and they had come around the turn of the century.
Mr. JENNER. That is a city in Russia?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; and they spoke Yiddish in conducting their business meetings, to one another, although since most of them, all of them had been in this country for a long time they understood English and spoke it. There were some who did not read and write English, and I undertook to teach a few.
Mr. JENNER. What was your particular activity in connection with this group?
Mrs. PAINE. I was to help them in achieving their plans for parties and club activities and to act as liaison between the club and the Y, which sponsored the club.
Mr. JENNER. Were these elderly people, set in their ways, who avoided change?
Mrs. PAINE. I felt it would be quite a remarkable group of very interesting people, and very able people. I felt that as a club leader I didn't really need to do much more than stay out of their way and help them in communication between one another and specifically in communication between the club and the organization, the Y.
Mr. JENNER. In general, what was their view towards the United States of America, as a group?
Mrs. PAINE. Oh, they loved America very much. They raised their families here.
Mr. JENNER. That is the first of those three groups.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. What was the next?
Mrs. PAINE. The second was the group of young adults that met once a week.
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Mr JENNER. Did they have any particular characteristic other than that they were a group of young adults?
Mrs. PAINE. They were a group of older young adults. They particularly needed to make social contact and some of them just to learn how to date and meet.
Mr. JENNER. Were they likewise people who had come from Russia or Poland?
Mrs. PAINE. No, no; they had been born here.
Mr. JENNER. They were apparently disadvantaged in some respect. Would you indicate what that was?
Mrs. PAINE. I felt they were not as able a group. The individuals in the group were not as able as the ones in the Golden Age Club, and they needed a great deal of help in their planning and in achieving simple party.
Mr. JENNER. Your work actually was group activity, singing groups, dancing groups or activities, rather, was it?
Mrs. PAINE. Not particularly singing and dancing. Again, of course, it was liaison between this club and the Y. But leadership here was more in the role of enabling them to achieve what they wanted than being the visible head of the group. The group had its own president and officers.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have to do any teaching in connection with either the Golden Age or the young adults group?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. The third was, I think you described it, as the lounge.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it was an informal lounge for members of the Y. They could come in and play chess, checkers, talk, read magazines. This required the least from me in the leadership.
Mr. JENNER. It was in this connection that you acquired some interest, or at least you attempted to acquire a facility in the Yiddish language?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; because of my work with the Golden Age Club. I had already studied some German so that I understood. The two languages are similar enough that I understood some of the content of their business meeting which they conducted in Yiddish.
Mr. JENNER. I have forgotten now, if you will forgive me. By this time had you taken a course in Russian at the university?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I hadn't.
Mr. JENNER. Had these activities at least in part that we have gone through this morning awakened, or stimulated your interest in the study of Russian?
Mrs. PAINE. No; had these activities?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. PAINE. Stimulated my interest?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. I will jump way back now, go backward a little bit to your pre-Antioch College period of activity.
Do you recall that as early as 1945--1946, that you were part of or at least engaged in the activities of the World Truck Farm in Elyria, Ohio?
Mrs. PAINE. Wolfe is the name. It is the man's name; the owner's name; Wolfe Truck Farm.
Mr. JENNER. This was a private---
Mrs. PAINE. It is just a private farm; yes.
Mr. JENNER. I thought it was an activity, and it arose out of the fact that the word "World" instead of "Wolfe" was furnished to me.
Mrs. PAINE. Oh, no.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Wolfe's Truck Farm?
Mrs. PAINE. It was. This was a group of girls and all from Columbus, Ohio, all from the school I was just entering at that time, and at a time when labor was very hard to find, just at the end of the war.
Mr. JENNER. You say entering a school at that time.
Mrs. PAINE. I was about to enter high school.
Mr. JENNER. That was high school?
Mrs. PAINE. And we earned a small amount for our work there, and we felt patriotic in helping to supply labor where it was needed, because so many of the young men were away at war, or in the Army.
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Mr. JENNER. Do you recall that in 1947 you served as a teacher in the Vacation Bible School?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Tell us a little bit about that.
Mrs. PAINE. This is the same summer when I was first introduced to Friends activities, and I was asked to be a leader, a teacher with a traveling Bible school. We went to three different small towns in Indiana and Ohio, and taught young children. I led songs and games and read stories.
Mr. JENNER. So at this time you were 15 years old, 14 or 15, right in there?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. In 1948 you served as a leader in craftwork at the Presbyterian Bible School in Columbus, Ohio?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Tell us a little bit more about that activity.
Mrs. PAINE. It was similar to what I had done the year before. I had enjoyed it the previous summer and looked for Bible school work then in Columbus. You have described it entirely. It was working with crafts and----
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. Did I interrupt you?
Mrs. PAINE. Working with children in crafts with them.
Mr. JENNER. Also in 1948 you were an assistant in children's physical education work at the Universal School, Columbus, Ohio?
Mrs. PAINE. University.
Mr. JENNER. University, was it?
Mrs. PAINE. This was the school I attended.
Mr. JENNER. That was your high school?
Mrs. PAINE. This was the high school.
Mr. JENNER. But you also served as assistant in the children's physical education activities?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall that in 1949 you were a leader and counselor to underprivileged children, a children's club group in Columbus, Ohio?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I was.
Mr. JENNER. Would you describe that more fully and also what the particular group was?
Mrs. PAINE. It was exactly as you have described it, a group of underprivileged children. We were without an agency in particular, and no particular place to meet, but we met in the homes of the families. This was basically sponsored by the families.
Mr. JENNER. By the families themselves?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; and I had volunteered to a friend of mine who had worked with these families previously, to lead a weekly club group meeting, and, again, the activities were songs and dancing and craftwork. I guess not dancing--more likely stories.
Mr. JENNER. Were these quite young children?
Mrs. PAINE. They ranged in age from, perhaps, 7 or 8 to 13. I had a helper who was 13.
Mr. JENNER. Did you do some teaching at Pendle Hill eventually?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I did not.
Mr. JENNER. You did not?
Mrs. PAINE. You have not mentioned one time when I attended. I attended in the---
Mr. JENNER. I meant to ask you if I had left out anything.
Mrs. PAINE. I attended Pendle Hill first in the fall of 1950, for the fall term.
Mr. JENNER. That ran over a little bit into 1951, didn't it?
Mrs. PAINE. No; it closed with the Christmas holidays.
Mr. JENNER. Did you return to the Friends School or Pendle Hill and do some work in 1956?
Mrs. PAINE. You are talking about Pendle Hill? I don't recall; no. I may have occasionally attended a lecture, but that is different.
Mr. JENNER. I think we might help this way. You were married to Michael R. Paine on the 28th of December, 1957?
Mrs. PAINE Yes.
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Mr. JENNER. In what activity were you engaged at that time?
Mrs. PAINE. I was teaching school at the Germantown Friends School. Germantown is a section of Philadelphia.
Mr. JENNER. When had you commenced that activity, that is, teaching at Germantown Friends School?
Mrs. PAINE. I began in the fall of 1956, worked there 1956 to 1957 and 1957 to 1958 school years.
Mr. JENNER. What did you do? What was your work?
Mrs. PAINE. I was the playground director and rhythm and dance teacher for grades 1 through 6.
Mr. JENNER. During all of that period?
Mrs. PAINE. During those 2 years.
Mr. JENNER. Did the Germantown Friends School have anything to do with Pendle Hill?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. I see. That is where my confusion arose.
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. You have already mentioned you attended various Friends conferences over this period of years, did you not?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did.
Mr. JENNER. And you maintained a lively interest in the activities of the Friends Conferences, especially the young people's groups?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. You already mentioned or made some reference to a Friends Conference at Quaker Haven, Ind., September 1955, I believe in your testimony, have you not?
Mrs. PAINE. I think it would have been August.
Mr. JENNER. August 1955?
Mrs. PAINE. It has to have been before school started.
Mr. JENNER. Was it with respect to this conference that you mentioned the Young Friends of North America meetings, and that you were active in that group, and that group was interested in easing the tensions between the east and the west?
Mrs. PAINE. It was a subcommittee of that group that had that particular interest.
Mr. JENNER. And out of this interest and activity arose the Russian pen pal activity and bringing of some Russian students over to America to see and observe America?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. I won't go into that. I think we covered it enough yesterday.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Would you say that was your initial interest in the Russian language or at least the pursuit of the study of the Russian language arose about that time?
Mrs. PAINE. My interest arose about that time. Pursuit didn't begin until later.
Mr. JENNER. In some of the materials I have seen there is mention of a Young Friends meeting or conference at Earlham College in Richmond, Ind. I think you made some reference to that yesterday, did you not?
Mrs. PAINE. There was a conference, a Young Friends Conference at Earlham in 1947. That was the first one I ever attended. Is that----
Mr. JENNER. No; well, I don't wish to say that isn't so, but you did attend another one in 1954-55, along in that time, didn't you?
Mrs. PAINE. There are a great many meetings for the Young Friends Committee of North America, and they were commonly held at Earlham College, .but they were not conferences.
Mr. JENNER. I see. I am using the wrong terminology.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; these were committee meetings and there were a number of them.
Mr. JENNER. This was in further pursuit of the exchange of the interest by pen pal letters and otherwise between young people in America and young people in Russia?
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Mrs. PAINE. This would have been one of the subjects of the committee meeting.
Mr. JENNER. Is there, or was there a Russian Friends group in Wallingford, in Philadelphia?
Mrs. PAINE. You mean people who were both Russian and Quakers?
Mr. JENNER. I am not too sure just what I do mean, because my information is so limited.
Mrs. PAINE. It brings nothing to my mind.
Mr. JENNER. It does not?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. It would appear that this was, my notes are a little garbled, I see, that the three Soviet students to whom you made reference yesterday came over here in 1958. Is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE. That fits with my memory of it.
Mr. JENNER. And it was the Young Friends group in which you were interested which stimulated, in cooperation with the State Department, as I recall it, bringing of these three young Soviet students over here?
Mrs. PAINE. We sought advice from the State Department; yes; and the American Friends Service Committee, also.
Mr. JENNER. And we covered that yesterday so we needn't trouble you with again. Your only participation or contact with these three Soviet students, I understand from your testimony, was you attended one meeting--was it a dinner--and you had no other contacts with them, either before or after?
Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. They went on from--where was this, in Philadelphia?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And they went on from there to see other parts of America?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Have you ever met knowingly, that is, that you knew, any Russian people other than these three Russian students and Marina, that is say up to November 22----
Mrs. PAINE. You mean people who had been born there?
Mr. JENNER. Yes. Well, of course, your golden age group. There were some who had been born in Russia.
Mrs. PAINE. A great many. I am not certain where Mrs. Gravitis was born. I think she was born in Latvia. Any such contact was certainly in very brief passing, as, for instance, I met a group that had come to Dallas to play chamber music. They were all from Soviet Armenia, and talked with these people. That was a year ago. But if there were any other contacts they were of that sort.
Mr. JENNER. Have you, in these long tedious days that we have had with you, pretty well exhausted all of your contacts with any native Russians or any Russians who were naturalized Americans, and indicated the character of your contacts with them?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I believe so.
Mr. JENNER. You are perfectly free to add any others, if you wish.
Mrs. PAINE. I don't think of any particular contact.
Mr. JENNER Would it be a fair summary on my part to say that your contact with these people had been largely either in connection with your interest in the Quaker Friends groups and their activities, and your work in furthering their activities, your avid interest in the study of and improvement of your command of the Russian language and then your contacts with Marina Oswald and Lee Oswald?
Mrs. PAINE. I would say it was mostly the latter. I met very few native Russians through my interest in Friends, but through being interested in Russian there were a good many native Russians at the Middlebury College, for instance, and the Berlitz teachers have to speak natively whether or not they were born in Russia, so that these would be my contacts.
Mr. JENNER. Your pen pal correspondent in Russia, at least the second was Nina Atarina?
Mrs. PAINE. Aparina, A-p-a-r-i-n-a.
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Mr. JENNER. And she is the school teacher?
Mrs. PAINE. She is.
Mr. JENNER. And you haven't heard from her in, did you say, 6 or 8 months?
Mrs. PAINE. It would be a year, I am quite certain.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, in your own words would you tell us something about your father and mother, your family generally, their interests? Put it in your own words. We are just trying to supply a background.
Mrs. PAINE. I can start most easily with their present activities. My mother has just completed work for a bachelor of divinity from Oberlin College in Ohio. She has already been ordained as a minister of the Unitarian Church. She hopes to do work as a chaplain in a hospital, and toward that end has 6 more weeks training to complete in inservice training in a hospital. My father is working for a Nationwide Insurance Co. He has been on special assignment from them to--I am not certain of the name of the organization--to cooperative alliance in Europe.
Mr. JENNER. That is a cooperative alliance of insurance companies?
Mrs. PAINE. Having to do with insurance; yes.
Mr. JENNER. Insurance companies?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; that is my understanding.
Mr. JENNER. This is a commercial activity, isn't it?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I believe so. And----
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. The cooperative alliance in Europe, does that include any Iron Curtain countries?
Mrs. PAINE. No. He is presently teaching a course at Ohio State University, and is on loan for that portion of time which he occupies with teaching from his regular job at Nationwide, although he is at the company most of the time.
Mr. JENNER. What is the subject he is teaching?
Mrs. PAINE. It has to do with insurance.
Mr. JENNER. You start out at the end rather than the beginning, Mrs. Paine. We don't want to go too far back, but let's go back to your high school days. Was your father an insurance----
Mrs. PAINE. He worked for the same company then.
Mr. JENNER. The same company, in Columbus, Ohio?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Have your parents had any interests in political matters?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. Most of that interest I absorbed from hearing it told about, rather than being around when it was going on. Most of the activity was in New York and, as I have said, I moved 2 weeks after I was born from New York. But they have always been interested in what is called the cooperative movement.
Mr. JENNER. Tell me what you understand----
Mrs. PAINE. My understanding is that the consumer owns the business. In other words, holds the shares, the stock that control, and determine the management of the business, and share in the profits.
Mr. JENNER. Is that something like what I would call a farmers cooperative?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't know what farmers cooperative is.
Mr. JENNER. Would you describe what you understand the cooperative movement is?
Mrs. PAINE. I think consumers cooperative is somewhat different. I am not certain what farmers cooperative is. I know that they were interested in and voted for Norman Thomas when they were in New York.
Mr. JENNER. Have you ever had any interests of that nature, that is an active political interest in a political party? For example, the Socialist Party which Mr. Thomas was the head, or leader?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. I take it from this thumbnail sketch of your life up to the present moment, your interests were largely in the Friends and recreation for children, people who needed help. Your interests were in the social area, but not a political party interest.
Mr PAINE. That is a correct statement.
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Mr. JENNER. How would you describe your family from the standpoint of their social standing or their financial standing? Were they people of modest means?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. My family was middle income who spent rather more money on education and good medical care than most people in our income.
Mr. JENNER. And they were modest in their tastes, I gather this, frankly, from reading the correspondence between your parents and yourself. I mean in their material tastes.
Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes; and certainly the means were modest.
Mr. JENNER. I gather from reading some of the letters and some of the reports of interviews with others, and may I say to you, Mrs. Paine, that the people with whom you have been in contact over the years think very well of you, and particularly your activities in connection with the Friends and your teaching and recreation, would you say that the pattern of your life has been one of seeking to help others and of the giving of yourself to others in that respect?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I think that is a fair statement.
Mr. JENNER. Would you be good enough, if I am not pressing you too much, to indicate what your philosophy of life is in that general connection?
Mrs. PAINE. I believe in doing as the soul prompts, and proceeding to help or offer help if the desire to do so comes from within me. It is not an ideology that I am following here, but a desire to live the best possible life I can, and to always seek to understand what that best life is.
Mr. JENNER. Have you finished?
Mrs. PAINE. I have a lot of thoughts about the problems of helping anyone, and about the possibility of self-deception or false pride that can enter, if you help someone because you think you should or from something outside an inner feeling that this is what you want to do. But I don't think I have discuss it more fully than that.
Mr. JENNER. Return a moment to your conference with Mr. Hosty, on the first of November 1963. You have had time to search your own mind as to whether it occurred actually on the first of November, and what time of the day it was Marina testified, and this is for the purpose of refreshing your recollection if it does--I will read it back a little bit, she was shown Lee's diary and the entry to which we called your attention yesterday in that diary. She was asked, "Did you report to your husband the fact of this visit November 1 with the FBI agent?"
She responded: "I didn't report it to him at once, but as soon as he came for a weekend I told him about it."
Then she added voluntarily: "By the way, on that day he was due to arrive--that is November 1.
Mr. Rankin said: "That is on November 1?"
She said: "Yes."
She said, "Lee comes off work at 5:30, comes from work at 5:30. They left at 5 o'clock," meaning the agents, "and we told them if they wanted they could wait and Lee would be here soon, but they didn't want to wait."
Does that refresh your recollection in that connection?
Mrs. PAINE. It may certainly have happened that way. My recollection stands as I told it yesterday.
Mr. JENNER. That it was more toward the middle of the afternoon?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, 3:00 or 3:30.
Mr. JENNER. And did you advise them, or do you have a recollection of having advised them that he was expected later that day for the weekend?
Mrs. PAINE. I only recall that I said he came on weekends or would be available to be seen here at my home, in other words, on weekends.
Mr. JENNER. She also has a recollection that at this particular visit there was only one agent rather than two.
Mrs. PAINE That is my recollection, also.
Mr. JENNER That is your recollection?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is.
Mr. JENNER. And that was Mr. Hosty?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. It could have been, Mrs. Paine, but your recollection doesn't
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serve you sufficiently at the moment, that Mr. Hosty was advised on the occasion of that conference that Lee Oswald was expected that particular weekend?
Mrs. PAINE. It could have been.
Mr. JENNER. Yes. That is, you don't want to take issue with Marina's testimony?
Mr. PAINE. Oh, I don't no.
Mr. JENNER. It possibly could have happened that way?
Mrs. PAINE. It certainly could have.
Mr. JENNER. But, in any event, you do remember clearly and distinctly that you advised Mr. Hosty that Lee did visit on weekends and that Mr. Hosty could return the next weekend or even this particular weekend to see Lee Oswald if he wished?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. In any event, you further advised him at that time that he was employed at the Texas School Book Depository?
Mrs. PAINE. I did indeed. May I interrupt?
Mr. JENNER Yes.
Mrs. PAINE. Could we have a short break?
(Brief recess.)
Mr. JENNER. During the course of the interview on November 1, was there any reference to Lee's having passed out leaflets for the FPCC?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I believe so.
Mr. JENNER. And was there any inquiry as to whether Lee was engaging in or had engaged or was engaging in similar activity in the Dallas-Irving-Fort Worth area?
Mrs. PAINE. There was reference to it, I suppose in the nature of an inquiry. I don't recall.
Mr. JENNER. Does this refresh your recollection that Marina said through you that Lee was not engaging in such activities in the Dallas-Irving-Fort Worth area?
Mrs. PAINE. That seems correct to me.
Mr. JENNER. Marina was present, was she, at a subsequent interview on the 5th of November?
Mrs. PAINE. No; she was not.
Mr. JENNER. She was not? She likewise describes the November 1 interview similarly as you did, that it was in the nature of a conversation rather than an interview. That was your impression, was it not?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did your brother ever engage in any political activity?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall it offhand.
Mr. JENNER. Your sister, Sylvia?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Or her husband?
Mrs. PAINE. No. I am sure they all vote when the opportunity affords.
Mr. JENNER. Oh, yes; of course.
Mrs. PAINE. But you don't mean that?
Mr. JENNER. I don't mean that. I mean active political party activity of some kind.
Mrs. PAINE. I don't have any specific recollection.
Mr. JENNER. And you never did?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Is your brother a member of the American Civil Liberties Union?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't know.
Mr. JENNER. Or your sister?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't know.
Mr. JENNER. Is your sister active as you are or a member of the League of Women Voters?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't know that.
Mr. JENNER. Your relations with your mother and your father--would you say you were rather close to your father and your mother?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, I am close to both of them. I am particularly close to my mother.
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Mr. JENNER. And is that likewise true of your brother and your sister, you have a close relation with your folks?
Mrs. PAINE. I think I have the closest relation to my mother, and possibly my brother and sister-in-law, who are near in Ohio, are closer to my father, and I just can't say as to my sister's relationship, meaning I don't know.
Mr. JENNER. The relationships between yourself, your brother, your sister your mother and your father, you are compatible? You are interested in each other's activities?
Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Do you exchange correspondence?
Mrs. PAINE. We do, and photographs of the children.
Mr. JENNER. And you have a lively interest in what each is doing, and they in you?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And that has always been true, has it not?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And do you exchange your troubles and your interests with each other?
Mrs. PAINE. When we visit. We are, none of us, terribly good letterwriters.
Mr. JENNER. From what I have seen I would take exception. I think You are too modest. There has been a good deal of letterwriting.
Mrs. PAINE. There has been a good deal of correspondence over the years; yes.
Mr. JENNER. And at least until recently, I don't know if you still do it, you were inclined to retain the originals of that correspondence and also copies of your letters, were you not?
Mrs. PAINE. For a goodly portion of the correspondence; yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, I have, which I will mark only for identification, three file cases of correspondence of your themes or writings in college. You might be better able to describe what is in these boxes than I in the way of general summary. Would you do so?
Mrs. PAINE. It also includes information helpful to me in recreation leadership, games, something of songs. It includes a list of the people to whom I sent birth announcements, things of that nature.
Mr. JENNER. It covers a span of years going back to your college days?
Mrs. PAINE. And a few papers prior to college.
Mr. JENNER. I have marked these boxes for identification numbers 457, 458, and 459. During my meeting with you Wednesday morning, I exhibited the contents of those boxes to you, and are the materials in the boxes other than material which is printed or is obviously from some other source that which purports to be in your handwriting, actually in your handwriting?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And those pieces of correspondence which purport to be letters from your mother, your father, your brother, and your sister are likewise the originals of those letters?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And the copies of letters which purport to be letters from you to your mother, father, sister, and brother, and in some instances others are copies of letters that you dispatched?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. JENNER. Back on the record, please.
We asked you yesterday if you loaned any money to Marina or to Lee Oswald, and your answer was in the negative.
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. We asked you if you had given any money to either of them, and your answer was in the negative, that is, cash.
Mrs. PAINE. I gave no cash.
Mr. JENNER. You gave no cash to either. What do you know about expenditures by Lee Oswald for such items as bus fare from Dallas to Irving and from Irving back to Dallas while looking for employment?
Mrs. PAINE. I recall taking him to the bus station once and picking him up
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once. There may have been another occasion, but my specific recollection is as to these two times.
Mr. JENNER. Just those two times? You already told us about the time he went to New Orleans, he bought two bus tickets and then he cashed in one. That was in the spring.
Mrs. PAINE. That was in late April.
Mr. JENNER. The same question with respect to telephone calls. You have already told us that was not a toll call from Dallas to Irving.
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Did he make telephone calls while he was at your home at any time?
Mrs. PAINE. Nothing except this one I have mentioned, the time and temperature.
Mr. JENNER. What recollection did you have with respect to this purchasing of food for meals and whatnot either in New Orleans, Dallas, or in Irving?
Mrs. PAINE. In New Orleans he purchased all the food that we used while there. In Irving, then after October 4 I saw him buy a few items for the baby or for June, things that Marina had requested, but no groceries.
Mr. JENNER. Now the same question with respect to clothing for himself, for Marina, and for June and Rachel. You have told us about the one instance in which he gave Marina some money to buy shoes for June, which was----
Mrs. PAINE. No, the shoes were for Marina.
Mr. JENNER. Were for Marina, and this had occurred during the week of the assassination?
Mrs. PAINE. Our plan was to go out on Friday afternoon, the 22d of November, to buy these shoes. Just when he gave her the money, I am not certain. And these, of course, were not bought. I can think of nothing that was bought. Yes, one thing. When she was with me in the spring, late April to the 9th of May, she had some money from Lee for her own expenses, and she used a portion of this, I would think a rather large portion, buying a pair of maternity shorts, or they may have been Bermuda shorts, longer than that, slacks, even, possibly, but I know they cost nearly $5, and this was quite a large expenditure and quite a thrill. These were bought in Irving.
Mr. JENNER. Was it your impression that they had or at least that Marina was afforded very limited funds?
Mrs. PAINE. That is distinctly my impression.
Mr. JENNER. They never paid you anything, in any event?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Now, the same question with respect to laundry. That would be laundry largely. I take it from your telling us about you and Marina hanging up clothes in your backyard on the 22d of November that neither you nor she ever sent any laundry out for cleaning or washing.
Mrs. PAINE. No; and Lee brought his underwear and shirts to be washed at my house, and then Marina ironed his things and he would take clean things with him on Monday.
Mr. JENNER. So that as far as you recall, he made no expenditures for laundry?
Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. At least during the time that Marina was with you.
Mrs. PAINE. At least during the fall; yes.
Mr. JENNER. Any expenditures on his part to have his hair cut, that is, any expenditures to the barber, to a barber?
Mrs. PAINE. I guess there must have been such. I don't recall it having been mentioned. I certainly wasn't around.
Mr. JENNER. We did ask you yesterday something about some local barber who seemed to think that Lee had called regularly on Fridays or Saturday morning at the barber shop. Your impression of that is that that was not Lee who did that.
Mrs. PAINE. That is my impression.
Mr. JENNER. In any event, you don't recall him ever buddying with or having a 14-year-old boy with whom he went around while he was in Irving?
Mrs. PAINE. I certainly do not recall.
Mr. JENNER. Would your recollection be to the contrary, that he did not?
Mrs. PAINE. My recollection is distinctly to the contrary.
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Mr. JENNER. Now, do you recall that he ever purchased any records, that is playing records, songs?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I recall no such.
Mr. JENNER. The purchase of camera film and the development of camera film?
Mrs. PAINE No.
Mr. JENNER. You are aware from reports of Marina's testimony that she took some pictures of him?
Mrs. PAINE. I read in the paper.
Mr. JENNER. Was there any picturetaking during the period, during the fall of 1963, either in New Orleans or in Irving or in Dallas?
Mrs. PAINE. Not by either Lee or Marina that I heard of.
Mr. JENNER. And did you hear any conversation between them in your presence or with you with respect to his or they having a snapshot camera or other type of camera to take pictures?
Mrs. PAINE. No; the only reference to a camera was made by Lee when he held up and showed me a camera he had bought in the Soviet Union and said he couldn't buy film for it in this country. it was a different size.
Mr. JENNER. Did they ever exhibit any snapshots to you?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; a few snapshots taken in Minsk.
Mr. JENNER. But no snapshots of any scenes in America that they had taken?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Or people?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER What is your impression as to whether Lee gave Marina any fixed or regular sum of money, by the week or the month?
Mrs. PAINE. When she was with me, she received no such regular sum of money.
Mr. JENNER. Have you now told us all you can recall as to funds given by Lee to Marina?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Is Hutch's Market--is that something familiar to you?
Mrs. PAINE Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Is that a local grocery store or delicatessen store?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. In Irving?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall an occasion when Lee took Marina to Hutch's Market to purchase some groceries?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall such an occasion. I do recall that Marina and I or perhaps it was only I went in and bought milk there. I think this was on our way to my house on the 24th of April. But it is not the store I usually go to, and I am quite certain it is--it is too far to walk---I am quite certain------
Mr. JENNER. How far away is the place?
Mrs. PAINE. It would be a 3-minute drive about 10 blocks.
Mr. JENNER. Ten blocks away?
Mrs. PAINE. Something like that.
Mr. JENNER. Is it further away than the----
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Than the market of which you spoke where you took Lee to----
Mrs. PAINE. It is a little closer than that but blocks in Irving are not well defined, I might say, so it is hard to say.
Mr. JENNER. When Lee came to your home on weekends, did he eat all of his meals there at your home?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; he did.
Mr. JENNER. I have already questioned you about breakfast. He always had his breakfast at your home but it consisted primarily of merely a cup of coffee?
Mrs. PAINE. He would eat a sweet roll if there was one.
Mr. JENNER. On occasion did he pack a lunch?
Mrs. PAINE. I remember one occasion when Marina packed a lunch or some food for him to take.
Mr. JENNER. Would you say there was anything regular about that?
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Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Any effort on her part to prepare a packet of lunch for him?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. You recall only that one occasion?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Did he ever discuss any finances in your presence?
Mrs. PAINE. I have already testified that we once in New Orleans, in September, discussed where he had worked and how to establish his residence in Texas. This involved giving me the remaining portion from a paycheck from the place where he had worked, and he discussed how much he was earning per hour at the two places he worked, the three places he worked when I knew him. But beyond that, I don't recall.
Mr. JENNER. Have you told us all the discussions that occurred between you and Marina with respect to their financial position and their finances and finances generally?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know what the busfare is from Dallas to Irving?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I don't.
Mr. JENNER. I will exhibit to you transcripts of three letters that you wrote your mother, which she permitted an agent of the FBI to copy.
I am going to mark those three transcripts Exhibit 461 for identification.
They appear as pages 14, 15, and 16 of a report of agents Wilson and Anderson, dated December 4, 1963.
(The documents referred to were marked "Ruth Paine Exhibit 461," for identification.)
Mr. JENNER. The first of those is a "Dear Mom" letter dated September 30. I take it that was September 30, 1963. Perhaps I should go at it this way. Do you recall that letter?
Mrs. PAINE. I recall that letter.
Mr. JENNER. And was it in 1963?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it was.
Mr. JENNER. I wish to call your attention to a couple portions of the letter and ask you a question or two.
In the second paragraph which I have underlined for my notes it reads:
"He has been out of work"--I will read the whole paragraph.
"To my surprise Lee was willing for Marina to come here to have the baby."
That is Irving, Tex.?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. "Even grateful." Then you say, "He has been out of work since August, and their income was $33 a week unemployment compensation, not much." Now, this letter was written from where and followed what event?
Mrs. PAINE. This was written from Irving on September 30, and it followed our arrival in Irving on the 24th of September.
Mr. JENNER. From New Orleans?
Mrs. PAINE. From New Orleans. I had forgotten that I had heard the sum or the amount of money he was receiving in unemployment compensation.
Mr. JENNER. But this does not refresh your recollection?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. It does?
Mrs. PAINE. It refreshes my recollection that my mother has shown me the same letter. I registered the same surprise then. I had quite forgotten that sum.
Mr. JENNER. Now, in the next paragraph it says:
"But I feel now that he does want to keep his family together, and will send for them as soon as possible."
That was your feeling at that time?
Mrs. PAINE. It certainly was.
Mr. JENNER. After New Orleans?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Now, you will notice in the letter, you say: "I spoke both to Lee and to Marina of my expectation that you would be here February to June. Lee asked how this would affect Marina's tenure, and I said she can have a place as long as they have need for it."
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Mrs. PAINE. Right.
Mr. JENNER. Now was there, then, at that time, a feeling or expectation that Marina would remain with you possibly for some considerable period of time?
Mrs. PAINE. I had not that feeling, as is shown by what is written in the above sentence, that he will send for his family as soon as possible. However, I had made it clear that I was willing for her to stay if that was necessary.
Mr. JENNER. So that the text of that letter was not intended by you to convey the impression that you then expected at least at that time and that Lee also might have expected and Marina, also, that she would be at your home for any considerable period of time?
Mrs. PAINE. I did not expect that.
Mr. JENNER. As to your expectation--was that dependent on his employment and sending for her, and at that time both of you, meaning Marina and yourself, expected that when he obtained work he would, send for Marina and they would be together again?
Mrs. PAINE Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, the second letter, which is dated October 15, 1963, and apparently at your home, it says 2575, it is 2515, isn't it?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. West 5th Street--and it is also a "Dear Mom" letter. Would you look at that and see if you did dispatch that letter to your mother?
For the record, Mr. Reporter, this present letter commences in the middle of page 15 of this document.
Do you recall the letter?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, you report the fact the big news as of that day, that Lee had obtained a position.
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Was that his position with the Texas School Book Depository?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. You don't mention the place of work in your letter.
Mrs. PAINE. No; I don't.
Mr. JENNER. You go on to say in the second paragraph of the letter:
"It is likely that Marina will stay on here for some time, perhaps through Christmas or New Year's anyway, with Lee coming weekends as he has the past two."
Had there been some change now that even though he had a position with the Texas School Book Depository, that Marina's joining him was being deferred?
Mrs. PAINE. I think that is clear in the next sentence.
Mr. JENNER. All right; read the next sentence.
Mrs. PAINE. "He has a room in Dallas at $8 a week currently, that he'd like to save a bit before getting an apartment, I think, and, of course, Marina should be here until she has rested some from childbirth."
We talked for some time of her being there both up to the birth of the baby and then for a time after so that I could help her with the care of the house, and with June.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have an expectation that that stay might be on into the following year?
Mr. JENNER. I notice you say in the last paragraph of this particular letter: "I have mentioned to Marina that I'd like to have you here in February and that I have given up the idea of a trailer."
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Now, to me that is an indication that you expected that Marina might be with you as late as February 1964. Do I misinterpret? In other words, Mrs. Paine, you were considering the possible difficulties that might arise from the fact that you were expecting your mother.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
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Mr. JENNER. You hoped she might join you in February of 1964, and that Marina might still be with you?
Mr. PAINE. I feel that mentioning this to Marina was more an indication that it would be difficult for me to have her after February. I didn't make mention of this until such time as it was clear to me they could well get an apartment and support themselves.
Mr. JENNER. And you were thinking in terms that if your mother did come that it would probably be necessary that Marina join her husband?
Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes.
Mr. JENNER. In Dallas?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. During this period of time, did you have any feeling at all that Lee was---there might be an anticipation on his part that he would not rejoin Marina, or she him, that something might possibly intervene, an action on his part that would keep them separated?
Mrs. PAINE. I had no such feeling.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have a contrary feeling?
Mrs. PAINE. I had a contrary feeling from both, from each.
Mr. JENNER. And what was that?
Mrs. PAINE. Marina talked to me of her hopes that what problems they had in the marriage would work out, and Lee appeared to me happy when he was with Marina and June, and glad to see them, and I also felt that Marina remained somewhat uncomfortable accepting from someone else, that she preferred the more independent situation.
Mr. JENNER. State?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. But you had no inkling at all or any feeling, the sense on his part either directly from him or through Marina that he might not continue in the position, that is the Texas School Depository or might not continue to live in the Dallas area?
Mrs. PAINE. I had no such feeling. My expectation was contrary.
Mr. JENNER. When you read Commission Exhibit 103, which I have described as the Mexico letter that you found on your desk secretary, did you have any feeling after you read that that Lee might have in mind going to Havana or going back to Russia through Mexico, or some other manner or means?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I really didn't.
Mr. JENNER. Did you think that letter was by and large something of a figment of the imagination of Lee?
Mrs. PAINE. It seemed to me that a goodly portion of it, the part upon which I could judge, was false.
Mr. JENNER. The third of the letters that your mother made available appears on page 16. It is dated October 27. I take it from the context of that letter, it was written by you on October 27, 1963?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you recall sending that letter to your mother?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I do.
Mr. JENNER. And it was written after the baby Rachel had been born?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
What? It was written some time after the baby had been born?
Mr. JENNER. Yes, 7 days. One week, as a matter of fact, is that right?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. I offer in evidence as Commission Exhibit No. 461 the three letters which I have identified and which the witness herself has identified as having been her letters and having been dispatched to her mother.
(The documents heretofore marked for identification as Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 461, were received in evidence.)
Mr. JENNER. I don't know if I asked you if the second and third had actually been dispatched by you.
Mrs. PAINE. They had all been dispatched by me, yes.
Mr. JENNER. During the period of your contacts with each of the Oswalds, was there any discussion between them in your presence or with you directly by either of them respecting his family and members of his family?
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Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. I should limit that first to up to November 22, 1963. If so, would your answer be the same?
Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes.
Mr. JENNER. And what was that discussion? Try and fix the time and places if any particular discussion stands out.
Mrs. PAINE. I have already testified to Marina's comment on wishing she could reach her mother-in-law to announce the baby's coming birth. Marina also talked to me----
Mr. JENNER. And that Lee did not give her the telephone number or advise her of means whereby she could reach her mother- in-law?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Did she indicate to you that he, in turn, had indicated he didn't wish her----
Mrs. PAINE. She indicated that he did not wish to make contact.
Mr. JENNER. Did it go beyond that, that he did not wish members of his family to know that the child Rachel had been born?
Mrs. PAINE. Not that specifically.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mrs. PAINE. Marina told of having stayed with Lee's brother Robert and Robert's wife in Fort Worth.
Mr. JENNER. When they first returned from Russia?
Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. And of her sorrow that she hadn't been able to talk more, having virtually no English, but that she had liked both of them.
I also learned from her that Robert had been assigned by the same company for which he worked in Fort Worth to a different town, I think in Alabama for a brief period, and then I heard in October or early November that he had been----
Mr. JENNER Of 1963?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; that he had been transferred to Denton.
Mr. JENNER. Denton, Tex.?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Anything else?
Mrs. PAINE. Part of the correspondence that I have given to the Commission contains a reference by Marina to Lee's brother, to the best of my recollection.
Mr. JENNER. Brother Robert?
Mrs. PAINE. I can look that up. It doesn't say. But I assumed so.
Mr. JENNER. Are you aware now that Lee had two brothers?
Mrs. PAINE. I am now aware of that.
Mr. JENNER. Were you aware during their contact with you up to November 22, 1963, that he had two brothers?
Mrs. PAINE. I have a vague recollection that Marina had mentioned there being another brother, but I am not certain.
Mr. JENNER. Did anything occur in the way of conversation or otherwise that brought to your attention the fact, if it be a fact, that Lee was avoiding contact with his brother and his mother?
Mrs. PAINE. I was under the impression----
Mr. JENNER. In the fall of 1963?
Mrs. PAINE. I was under the impression that he was not avoiding contact with his brother, but that he was avoiding contact with his mother.
Mr. JENNER. Were you aware during this fall period that he was employing a post office box, he had rented a post office box and was using it to receive communications?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. At any time during your acquaintance with the Oswalds had anything been said about his renting a post office box?
Mrs. PAINE. There was an occasion, I think it must have been after we had been to the bus station on April 24 that he asked to go by the main post office in Dallas to pick up some things. That would have implied a post office box there. But that was----
Mr. JENNER. What date was this?
Mrs. PAINE. April 24, to the best of my recollection. I can't think----
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Mr. JENNER. Go ahead.
Mr. PAINE. I recall that I was driving and Lee went into this main post office.
Mr. JENNER. Where? In Dallas?
Mr. PAINE. In Dallas, and the only time I can think it could have been was that day.
Mr. JENNER. Did he come out with any mail?
Mr. PAINE. Magazines, I think.
Mr. JENNER. Were you able to observe what those magazines were?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I don't recall.
Mr. JENNER. Did he ever speak of his life as a youth and a young man?
Mrs. PAINE, No.
Mr. JENNER. Or his experiences in the service?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Did you know or were you aware that he had been in the service?
Mrs. PAINE. His two large duffels which I saw a number of times said Marine Corps on them.
Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion of the fact that he had been in the Marines?
Mrs. PAINE. I think it had been mentioned. I don't specifically recall.
Mr. JENNER. But just in passing, not in the sense of his relating any of his experiences in the Marines?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I do recall one occasion in late October or early November when Marina said to me in the morning that the two of them had had a long and very pleasant conversation. Lee related things about his past life, for instance his having been in Japan.
Mr. JENNER. Did she elaborate?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Just talked in terms of conclusion, that is, that he had related these events to her and they had talked about it for some time?
Mrs. PAINE. The point of her telling me of this was that this was unusual. He didn't usually reminisce and converse in this way.
Mr. JENNER. Have you had a contact with or she with you, a Mrs. Shirley Martin?
Mrs. PAINE. Mrs. Shirley Martin came to visit me at my home, accompanied by her four children, and dog, some time in January-February, I don't know just when.
Mr. JENNER. Late January or early February?
Mrs. PAINE. I would guess so.
Mr. JENNER. Of this year?
Mrs. PAINE. Of 1964; yes.
Mr. JENNER. Would you please relate that incident to us?
Mrs. PAINE. She telephoned to ask if she could come out.
Mr. JENNER. Had you known her?
Mrs. PAINE. I had not known her. I had heard her name from the New York Times correspondent in Dallas, who said he had received a letter from her.
Mr. JENNER. All right; proceed.
Mrs. PAINE. She came out, told me that she had been in Dallas going over the route which Lee Oswald is supposed to have taken from the School Book Depository to his rooming house, and thence to the place where he was arrested, and she was in a hurry at that point to get back to suburban Tulsa, Okla., but wanted to ask me a few questions, and I answered whatever she wanted to know.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall what her questions were?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't specifically recall; no.
Mr. JENNER. Have you had any correspondence with Mrs. Martin
Mrs. PAINE. I have answered one of her letters by writing in the margin the answers to the questions that letter posed, and sending the whole thing back to her.
Mr. JENNER. So that you do not have a copy of any correspondence with Mrs. Martin?
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Mrs. PAINE. She has sent more than one letter. I said I had answered one and sent it back on that letter. I have perhaps four-- no; perhaps as many as eight letters from her now that, some are directly typed and some are just carbons of something she has said to a large group of people. We have also had some communication by telephone.
Mr. JENNER. May I see those letters when I am in Dallas Monday and Tuesday?
Mrs. PAINE. You can certainly see them.
Mr. JENNER. Would you summarize generally what the inquiries of Mrs. Martin have been and the subject matter and the nature of your responses? Telephone, or otherwise?
Mrs. PAINE. I do recall in the initial visit when she was in my home I asked her if she thought Lee Oswald was not guilty of the crime he is alleged to have committed and she said, well, that she couldn't say that, that it would be foolish at this point in the inquiry to say that, but that she was not satisfied with the evidence that led to a public conclusion that he was guilty.
Mr. JENNER. Did you express any opinion on your part?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. On that subject?
Mr. PAINE. I said that I thought he was guilty of the act.
Mr. JENNER. You did not know Mrs. Martin prior to the time she came to your door?
Mr. PAINE. No; I did not.
Mr. JENNER. And your acquaintance with her in the interim has been limited to what you have testified?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. And you are not working with Mrs. Martin in her campaign or crusade or whatever it may be?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I answer any questions she has just as I do answer questions of newsmen or other people who wish to inquire about what I know.
Mr. JENNER. Would you please give me your impression of Lee Oswald's personality, what you think made him tick, any foibles of his, your overall impression now as you have it sitting there of Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mrs. PAINE. My overall impression progressed through several stages.
Mr. JENNER. Why don't you give those. I think it would be helpful to us if you would. Start at the beginning.
Mrs. PAINE. In the spring what I knew of him was that he wanted to send his wife away back to the Soviet Union, which she didn't want to do, that he would not permit her to learn English or certainly didn't encourage it. I knew that he had lost his job and looked unsuccessfully. I formed an initial negative opinion about him, on really very little personal contact. I saw him very briefly the evening of the 22d of February, the evening of the second of April, and the afternoon of the 20th of April, and again on the 24th of April and so as far as I remember that is virtually all of the contact I had had directly with him.
And this impression stayed with me throughout the summer and throughout my visits to various friends and family on my trip of August and September 1963, and I undoubtedly conveyed to the people I talked to during that time that impression, which I carried at that time.
When I saw him again in New Orleans, beginning the 20th of September, I was impressed quite differently.
He seemed friendly. He seemed grateful, as reported in this letter to my mother, even grateful that I was offering to have his wife in my home and help her make arrangements at Parkland Hospital to have the baby there, at a fee adjusted to their income. He appeared to me to be happy, called cheerily to Marina and June as he came in the house with a bag full of groceries. He, as I described, washed the dishes that evening that Marina and I went down to Bourbon Street. And particularly in parting on the morning of September 23 I felt he was really sorry to see them go. He kissed them both at the house as we first took off and then again when we left from the gas station where I had bought a tire.
And I felt, as expressed in this letter that you just showed me to my mother that he hoped to have his family together again as soon as he could.
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Then, of course, the impression enlarged as I saw him in my home on the weekends beginning October 4, and I have read into the record one letter I wrote to my mother during that period, which shows that he tried to be helpful around the house, that he played with my children, that he, it appeared to me, was becoming more relaxed and less fearful of being rejected, and I had sensed in him this fear earlier. It was because I had sensed in him in the spring this insecurity and feelings of inadequacies that the thought once crossed my mind as expressed to Mrs. Rainy that he could be guilty of a crime of passion if he thought someone was taking away from him his wife, something valuable to him. Clearly he valued Marina. She was his only human contact, really, and I think while----
Mr. JENNER. His only human contact?
Mrs. PAINE. Really, so far as I could see, the only friend he had, and while he did quarrel and was petty with her on many times that I saw, he, I felt, valued her, and, of course, it is also true, as I have reported, that I never saw him physically violent to her or cruel, so that my impression of him, which I carried with me throughout my trip during the summer, changed, and my impression of him up to the time----
Mr. JENNER. Of the assassination?
Mrs. PAINE. Of the assassination, was of a struggling young man who wanted to support his family, who was having difficulty, who wanted to achieve something more in life than just the support of his family and raising children, who was very lonely, but yet could meet socially with people and be congenial when he made efforts to be.
Mr. JENNER. Was that effort confined largely to his immediate family?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, I recall specifically----
Mr. JENNER. And to you and your children?
Mrs. PAINE. And I think I told you this, but that it is not in the record, that Mrs. Ruth Kloepfer with her two daughters--no; I mentioned that to the record--came over to their house in New Orleans in September, and he was a genial host on that occasion, and he was, I felt, enjoying being the center of interest for four or five people at this initial party when I first met him.
Mr. JENNER. That was in the spring? That was February of 1963?
Mr. PAINE. Right; so that it is in this period when he was coming out weekends in the fall to my home that he seemed to me a man striving, wanting to achieve something, a man without much formal schooling nor much native intelligence, really, but a striver, trying hard, and I never felt any sense during that period that he might be a violent person or apt to break over from mild maladjustment to active violent hostility towards an individual.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have any feeling or impression that he in turn felt frustrated, that the ideals and objectives toward which he was reaching were unattainable, and he was having that feeling that they were unattainable, or at least that others were not accepting him in the concept in which he regarded himself?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; and I think I have testified that----
Mr. JENNER. Was that fairly distinct in your mind?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it was quite distinct. I don't believe he felt successful. As I have said, I didn't talk much with him about what his aims were. But it seemed to me, and Marina expressed to me her feeling, that he had an overblown opinion of himself, and of what he could and should achieve in the world.
Mr. JENNER. What is your impression of him as his being introspective or an introvert or an extrovert? Did he seek friends or did he avoid social contact? What are your impressions in those areas of him?
Mrs. PAINE. I would say that he was a combination, that the man within was an introvert, preferred the company of the television set or a book, but that he could, as I have said, be a genial host or go to a meeting of the American Civil Liberties Union with my husband, and I understand that he made a fairly good impression upon some of the people there.
And I have also heard that he was making a fairly good impression where he was working at this last place.
Further, it is not the sign of an introvert to blow off on little things to your wife, as he did. I felt that he exercised the safety valve of expressing irritations early. He didn't save them up. They came right out. I might
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say, also, I felt that he was primarily an emotional person, though he talked of ideology and philosophy, that what moved him and what reached him were the more emotional qualities of life, and that he was really unusually sensitive to hurt.
Now, some of this is hindsight, and I would like to label it as such, but I want to say that I was not at all surprised reading after the assassination that he took a little puppy to his favorite teacher as a gift, and then came over to see this puppy very often. This was in the fourth grade or so. As an effort to make a warm contact and show feeling.
Mr. JENNER. That is, if this incident did in fact take place, it was something that you could understand?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Understand in the sense that it might be something----
Mrs. PAINE. In terms of what I saw.
Mr. JENNER. That Lee Oswald would have done, is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE. As a child.
I did feel that very likely he took fewer and fewer risks making friends as he grew up than he perhaps had as a child, but I was guessing at that, the risk of being close, in other words.
Mr. JENNER. Took fewer and fewer risks?
Mrs. PAINE. I think he was fearful of being close to anyone.
Mr. JENNER. Or being hurt?
Mrs. PAINE. Because he could, therefore, be hurt, right.
Mr. JENNER. Not being accepted?
Mrs. PAINE. If he allowed himself to be friends or be close, then he opened the possibility of the friend hurting him, and I had this feeling about him, that he couldn't permit or stand such hurt.
Mr. JENNER. Would you tell us of your feelings toward Marina? You liked her? That is what I am getting at.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I like her very much. I felt always that what I wanted to say and what I was able to understand of what she said was hampered by my poor Russian. It improved a good deal while with her, and we did have very personal talks about our respective marriages.
But I felt this was just a developing friendship, not one in full bloom, by any means. I respected what I saw in her, her pride, her wish to be independent, her habit of hard work, and expecting to work, her devotion to her children, first to June and then to both of the little girls, and the concentration of her attention upon this job of mother, and of raising these children.
I also respected her willingness and effort to get on with Lee, and to try to make the best of what apparently was not a particularly good marriage, but yet she had made that commitment and she expected to do her best for it.
Mr. JENNER. What is your present reaction, and even as you went along, of her feeling or regard for or with respect to you?
Mrs. PAINE. I felt she liked me. I felt she tended to put me in a position of Aunt Ruth, as she called me, I have already said, to Junie, almost as aunt to her rather than a mother as she was equal, in other words, she was a young mother and I was a young mother equal in age and stage in life.
Mr. JENNER. By the way, you were of her age, were you?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I am older than she. I am 31.
Mr. JENNER. You are 31 and she is what?
Mrs. PAINE. Twenty-two. But our children were fairly close in age, and our immediate problems were fairly similar therefore.
Mr. JENNER. Now; would you give me your reaction to Robert?
Mrs. PAINE. I have very little reaction to Robert, of course, having met him only at the police station and said very little to him there, and equally little when he came with Mr. Thorne and Mr. Martin to pick up Marina's things at my house a few weeks after the assassination. That is the sum total of my contact, so that what impressions I have have been formed from what people said and not directly formed.
Mr. JENNER. In other words, you had so little contact with him that you really have formed no particular opinion with respect to him?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
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Mr. JENNER. Do you have any impression at all or any knowledge, if you have knowledge, of his impressions of you and of your husband?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I have no knowledge of his impressions of me or my husband.
Mr. JENNER. And do you have any impressions apart from knowledge?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I have some impressions about what Mr. Thorne and Mr. Martin are.
Mr. JENNER. What are they? Who are the two men you mentioned--Mr. Martin?
Mrs. PAINE. Mr. Martin acted as business advisor for Marina and she lived at his home for some time after the assassination.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have some contact with him?
Mrs. PAINE. I met him on the 21st of December at his home, came to the door and he recognized and asked me in. I don't know I had met him before because I didn't know he had been one of the men who had come with Robert to pick up the things for Marina, but he said he had been on that occasion.
(Brief recess.)
Mr. JENNER. We were talking about Mr. Martin. Go ahead.
Mrs. PAINE. We had a short but fairly cordial talk and I left with him a package of letters that had come to my address but were really for Marina, containing notes and checks of donations.
Mr. JENNER. How did you become aware of what the contents of those were?
Mrs. PAINE. They were addressed to me in my name, so that I opened them and then these were enclosing a check asking me to deliver it to Marina, this sort of thing.
And also brought, I can't remember, some items, things I found in the house that belonged to her very probably that we hadn't noticed when Robert had come to get the remaining items.
From a call to the Secret Service headquarters in Dallas I had gained the impression that I shouldn't try to see Marina Oswald at that time, and while I was under the impression that she was at Mr. Martin's home it was not my particular intention to see her.
I wanted to meet him if I could and learn anything that would give me some more impression of how things were going for her at that time, and with this small collection of donations for her that I was taking, I wrote a short note to her, a Christmas greeting, and returned home.
I came--perhaps I should interrupt here.
Talking about my contact with Mr. Martin and Mr. Thorne is really best done in connection with the letters I wrote to Marina, and these are--since the assassination, and these are in Irving. It might be better to do the whole thing as part of the deposition there.
Mr. JENNER. When I come to Irving this coming week?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. What feeling do you have as to the reason why, if you have any at all, there appears to have been this sudden, if it is sudden, at least lack of contact between you and Marina commencing with the last time you saw her some 10 days or 2 weeks ago? When was that?
Mrs. PAINE. The morning of the 23d of November.
Mr. JENNER. And you have had no contact with or from her from the 23d to some 10 days or 2 weeks ago, is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE. You recall I said that I had talked with her by phone the evening of the 23d and then again around noon of the 24th.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. PAINE. Then there was one call from her to me, telephone call from the motel where she was staying for a couple of weeks after the assassination. It was brief, but she expressed her gratitude to me.
Mr. JENNER. Her gratitude for what?
Mrs. PAINE. For things that I had done, for having had her at my home. I said, either said or she asked that Michael was staying at my home now, and she said, "Well, maybe something good can come of even this terrible thing." I said that I was writing an article with a fellow for Look Magazine.
Mr. JENNER. And that is the article we put in evidence yesterday?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; and she expressed her feeling that that was a good thing,
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really her feeling that she hoped I might get some financial remuneration from it. I think she always felt terribly indebted to me in a way she couldn't resolve. I said I had talked by telephone with Mrs. Ford the previous day. This telephone call between myself and Mrs. Ford was the first time she and I had talked.
Mr. JENNER. The first time you and Mrs. Ford had talked?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; and Mrs. Ford called me. And I had taken Mrs. Ford's number that day, and gave this number to Marina over the phone. Mrs. Ford and I had talked about whether Marina should be encouraged herself to write something just from the aspect of her financial need, and that this might ease the finances, and I was hopeful that Mrs. Ford, more fluent in Russian than I would help Marina in a decision relative to this matter. Marina said to me "They don't know that I'm telephoning you."
Mr. JENNER. They don't know?
Mrs. PAINE. That is all she said, and I didn't know to whom the "they" referred. But, because of that, I did not mention to the press or to friends that she had called, with the exception of Michael, feeling that in time she would certainly contact me again.
Mr. JENNER. Has she?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, she wrote me a Christmas card with a few sentences on it.
Mr. JENNER. We have that in evidence, have we?
Mrs. PAINE. Oh, no; that is part of the postcorrespondence I didn't suppose you cared about. You can pick that up in Irving.
Mr. JENNER. May I see it?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, you certainly may see it, and I'll translate it for you.
The card conveys greetings to me and my family for Christmas, thanked m again for all my generosity. I felt overthanked because I didn't feel I had done very much. And said she was sorry that our friendship had ended so badly.
Mr. JENNER. She said this in the note? The answer is yes?
Mrs. PAINE. The answer is yes. And I was surprised and a little hurt at the implication of its being over. I have already said that I went out to Robert Oswald's home in an effort to inquire of him and his wife what my best role might be as a friend towards Marina, or trying to express friendship to Marina at this time. I felt that possibly she was being advised not to contact me or that it was more difficult for the Secret Service to keep her location unknown if I had any contact with her or that they thought so at least. In fact, of course I knew where she was anyway. And I also recalled something I will put in here that occurred as we were watching the television set after it was announced that the President was shot. I said, "and it happened in our city. I am going to move back east." And she knew, of course, not only because of this statement but because of the many things I have done which I have reported at that time that I was terribly grieved at Kennedy's death. And I wondered if she wouldn't possibly feel that I couldn't forgive her for simply being the wife of the accused assassin. So that I wanted to somehow convey to her that I didn't hold her guilty or carry any animosity toward her. And in the situation I just didn't know how to convey this. What I did was to write her letters talking about normal things, but requesting a reply, and I didn't get a reply.
Mr. JENNER. You did not?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have a feeling that left uninfluenced and free to do as she might wish to do, that Marina is still friendly with you and regards you well and would be in contact with you?
Mrs. PAINE. I have a feeling that left uninfluenced, she would have certainly remained friendly to me. If she suddenly now became uninfluenced, and perhaps she has become uninfluenced, it doesn't erase a period of influence that may have affected and may continue to affect her feelings toward me. I don't know what she has said or what was suggested about me to her, and we didn't get into anything of this nature at the one brief meeting on March 9. I didn't feel it appropriate. But a lot has passed. She was, after all--it has already been longer that I have not seen her, had no contact with her during a very trying and significant period in her tile. That period was longer than the whole period she stayed with me. So much has happened, and I just don't know.
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Mr. JENNER. When you visited her on March 9, was it at her present home in Richardson, Tex.?
Mrs. PAINE. No. I had asked Mrs. Ford if I could come and make a tape recording at her house with her reading a Russian beginning reader text onto the tape so that I could use this to improve my pronunciation and to use it with my one Russian student, and she said she would be glad to help me with that recording, glad to help any time when someone wanted to learn Russian. We neither one could do it that week, but she called me back a week later and said that she thought it would be nice if Marina made the recording, since Marina----
Mr. JENNER. This was volunteered on the part of Mrs. Ford?
Mrs. PAINE. This was volunteered on the part of Mrs. Ford and she suggested that I come to her house on March the 9th and we would go from her house to Marina's house and make a recording and, of course, I was pleased with the opportunity to see Marina whether or not it involved making a recording that night.
Mr. JENNER. Yes. This was at night?
Mrs. PAINE. It was in the evening; yes. As it turned out, we stayed at Mrs. Ford's. We did not go to Marina's house. Marina said to me----
Mr. JENNER. Marina was at Mrs. Ford's when you arrived?
Mrs. PAINE. Was at Mrs. Ford's when I arrived and we stayed there the entire time during the visit. Marina explained she didn't have her furniture yet in her house and she would like to wait and invite me when she had her own home as she wanted it, and this, I think, is quite accurate. She likes things to look nice. I think she was pleased to have a home of her own.
Mr. JENNER. Did you gifts have a general conversation apart from your immediate objective of having a recording?
Mrs. PAINE. We had primarily a nice visit. We did then do a recording, also. As it turned out, Mrs. Ford did the reading, because Marina really needed to take care of June, who was there, also.
Mr. JENNER. Was your impression of Marina at that time that she was friendly or at least that she was not averse?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. She was friendly. She said she was fearful that I might be angry with her for her not having answered my letters, and by making reference to the content of several of the letters I answered my own unspoken question as to whether she had received them. She had.
Mr. JENNER. She has?
Mrs. PAINE. She recognized each of those things to which I referred.
Mr. JENNER. Things she mentioned during the course of this meeting?
Mrs. PAINE. Indicated that she had received my letters.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; indicated to you that she had received them.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; and she said she was fearful that I would be angry with her for not having answered. But she said that Mr. Martin had advised her not to write to me or reply, and that she hoped I had understood that something of this nature was affecting her, and that this was why she was not writing. asked about the change from having Thorne as a lawyer and Martin as a business advisor, to Mr. McKenzie as a lawyer, and she thought that was a good and necessary change, was relieved that this was being done. I said that I had talked with Mr. Thorne.
Mr. JENNER. When was that?
Mrs. PAINE. It was the first Friday or Saturday in January.
Mr. JENNER. Of this year?
Mrs. PAINE. Of 1964, and I asked him whether she, whether Marina, had delegated power of attorney to anyone, and Mr. Thorne told me no.
Mr. JENNER. Why did you make that inquiry?
Mrs. PAINE. Why did I make that inquiry?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. PAINE. At that time? I was concerned. I had no idea what sort of men these were or what arrangements they had made, and it seemed to me I had heard that Thorne had told me himself that he conducted all his business with Marina in English, and I thought this cannot be very detailed, because I knew her English to be quite poor.
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Mr. JENNER. Were you troubled about her understanding of what was being done?
Mrs. PAINE. I was troubled about her understanding of what she had signed, and I wanted to know what powers she had delegated to someone else. Therefore, I asked specifically about power of attorney, and he told me, no, she had not delegated that.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have a sense of responsibility in this area?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did.
Mr. JENNER. But this was not mere curiosity or meddling on your part?
Mrs. PAINE. I felt that it was possible that she was being protected from her friends, and that had no one----
Mr. JENNER. You mean isolated from her friends?
Mrs. PAINE. All right; yes.
Mr. JENNER. Do you really mean that, isolated rather than protected from?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, that someone may have thought she should not talk to me.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. PAINE. And, further, I learned that she hadn't spoken at an earlier time, at that time, to Mrs. Ford. I did not know of anyone who spoke Russian except for official translators for Secret Service or the FBI who had been to see her, and this seemed to me wrong. So I was concerned. And when I reported this conversation with Mr. Thorne to Marina, she said, "Well, that is a lie" and I said----
Mr. JENNER. She said----
Mrs. PAINE. That is a lie. She had delegated power of attorney, and I knew that at this time I was reporting the conversation to Marina on the 9th of March because I had read it in the paper.
Mr. JENNER. You had learned it in the meantime?
Mrs. PAINE. Had learned in the meantime that she had delegated power of attorney.
Mr. JENNER. I have been seeking all that occurred in your visit with Marina and Mrs. Ford in the Ford home on March 9. Have you completed that? Is there anything you would like to add?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, I would like to add that Mrs. Ford was out for a brief period. She went to the washerteria to pick up some clothes that had been at the drier so that for a time Marina and I were alone perfectly free to say anything we wanted.
Mr. JENNER. And during that period was your conversation, your visit with Marina pleasant?
Mrs. PAINE. Oh, indeed; yes.
Mr. JENNER. Free and open? What reaction did you get during the period you were alone with her as to her feeling or regard or how she felt about you?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, I felt she was certainly friendly, but I felt the strain of wanting to avoid any reference to her husband or to the events that were so painful to us both. And I didn't want to ask directly anything about why she hadn't written or confront her with that. She did say as I was working at the tape recorder later, and Mrs. Ford was reading from the book, we came to a break in the recording and Marina commented, she had been sitting across the room watching, my profile was very like her mother's, and this is not the first time she has made the connection to my physical build and that of her mother. I don't give this much significance, but I do have the impression that there are many feelings and mixed feelings in us both. It is not a simple relationship.
Mr. JENNER. Do you anticipate the possibility of, I will use the word, renewing, it may not be the right word.
Mrs. PAINE. I think that would be right. There has been a distinct break.
Mr. JENNER. Of this cordial friendship and relationship with Marina?
Mrs. PAINE. I would like that if it comes about.
Mr. JENNER. And do you have a feeling that there is a possibility of that arising out of your contact with her on March 9, having now talked with her face to face?
Mrs. PAINE. I think there is that possibility. I would like her to do some of the initiating, if not most of it at this point. I said I was going to Washington. I had just heard that same evening before going to the Fords. Mrs.
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Ford said that she and her husband were to go to Washington, and when. And I said when I would be back home, and Marina implied that she might try to contact me then. I am hopeful that she will. I don't have any particular plans to attempt to contact her.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have any feeling other than charity in your heart for Marina?
Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes; certainly. I like her very much as a person. This doesn't mean that I understand her, that she is a person to whom I feel automatically kindred. She was raised in Soviet Russia. She has a background very foreign to my own. I am not even aware of some of the kinds of differences this may cause. I do think that she is a good thinker and a free thinker and that she thinks for herself. I was interested to note what I have put into the record, I believe, yesterday evening about her comment to Mr. Hosty, the first time he came to the house, that she thought Castro was not getting an entirely fair press or not being pictured well in this country, to present a contrary opinion in this situation, and an independent opinion, possibly, clearly unpopular, or she could well suspect it would be unpopular with the FBI agent showed a certain amount of independence and courage and self-confidence, I felt, more what I would expect of an American than of a person raised to be fearful of secret police and state domination.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have anything you want to add in this connection?
Mrs. PAINE. Just the observation that her view of herself and of what she should do now that her husband has been accused of assassinating the President of the United States must be very strongly affected by the fact that she was raised in Soviet Russia, not here, but the, fact that she is an emigre hopeful of staying, but by no means native.
Mr. JENNER. Did she ever talk to you, I think you mentioned before that she was hopeful of staying. Did she express that to you?
Mrs. PAINE. On several occasions.
Mr. JENNER. And of ultimately becoming a citizen of the United States?
Mrs. PAINE. She didn't mention that, but I assumed it.
Mr. JENNER. You assumed it from the nature of the conversation?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I didn't hear anything specifically stated about that until I read it in the paper after the assassination.
Mr. JENNER. I would like to limit it first not to what you read in the paper and your being influenced thereby, but from your contacts with Marina, and the conversations that you had, there must have been many, many of them.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. In your home. Do you have a feeling that she has a hope or desire or an intention eventually to become. a citizen of the United States?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall that specifically. I recall on several occasions that she----
Mr. JENNER. I am seeking only your impression now.
Mrs. PAINE. I will try to answer it by giving these impressions. She expressed many times her wish to stay in this country. She wanted to raise her children here. She was interested in June's learning English and was very concerned that June be able to speak English before she entered school. Indeed, I felt she was not enough concerned that June maintain a bilingual background. She wouldn't have cared if June only learned English, whereas, I, here struggling hard to learn Russian, thought that June could have a chance to learn it easily, but her expression of interest was in June's learning English and not any particular desire to maintain a bilingual quality.
Mr. JENNER. I would share your feeling. I wish I had the command of more than English. I would like very much to do so. I took a lot of Spanish, but it is completely gone now.
Mrs. PAINE. It is very hard to be truly bilingual. Few children have the opportunity.
Mr. JENNER. I have just a couple technicalities on the diary and on your address book, so I can establish them for the record. I would like to go through Commission Exhibit 401, which is the calendar. The entry on page 3 of the exhibit in reference to Lawrence Hoke that is your brother-in-law? Oh, that is your nephew?
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Mrs. PAINE. He was born last April 14, 1963, and I wrote it down.
Mr. JENNER. Nothing to do with the Oswalds?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. The next sheet is blank, of course. Now, to the calendar itself, are there any entries in January that have reference to Oswalds?
Mrs. PAINE. None.
Mr. JENNER. February?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Pick them out according to dates.
Mrs. PAINE. Well, you must understand that some of these were written at the time and some were put in later.
Mr. JENNER. All right; distinguish between them, please.
Mrs. PAINE. I wrote down on February 15, June's birthday, 9:55 a.m., Minsk. That was written in later.
Mr. JENNER. That is, she was born on February 15. Did you put the year in there?
Mrs. PAINE. The year does not appear. I, of course, know it.
Mr. JENNER. And that was the previous year?
Mrs. PAINE. She was born in 1962.
Mr. JENNER 1962. Any other reference or entry in the month of February that has relation to the Oswalds?
Mrs. PAINE. At the top is written "Marina last period February 5" crossed out "or 15th." This refers to menstrual period trying to figure when the baby would be due, and it was an inaccurate notation I learned later. Then there is a note written at the time, the only one on this page that refers to the Oswalds that was written at the time, and that says, "Everett's?"
Mr. JENNER. Entered where?
Mrs. PAINE. On the 22d of February, and from this----
Mr. JENNER. And you have already testified about that?
Mrs. PAINE. From this I deduced that was when I first met them.
Mr. JENNER. Now, I turn to March, and I direct your attention to the upper left-hand corner of that card, and it appears to me that in the upper left-hand corner are October 23, then a star, then "LHO" followed by the words "purchase of rifle." Would you explain those entries?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. This was written after.
Mr. JENNER. After?
Mrs. PAINE. This was written indeed after the assassination.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mrs. PAINE. I heard on the television that he had purchased a rifle.
Mr. JENNER. When?
Mrs. PAINE. I heard it on November 23.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. PAINE. And went back to the page for March, put a little star on March 20 as being a small square, I couldn't fit in all I wanted to say. I just put in a star and then referring it to the corner of the calendar.
Mr. JENNER. That is to the entry I have read?
Mrs. PAINE. Put the star saying "LHO purchase of rifle." Then I thought someone is going to wonder about that, I had better put down the date, and did, but it was a busy day, one of the most in my life and I was off by a month as to what day it was.
Mr. JENNER. That is you made the entry October?
Mrs. PAINE. October 23 instead of November.
Mr. JENNER. It should have been November 23?
Mrs. PAINE. It should have been November 23.
Mr. JENNER. And the entry of October 23, which should have been November 23, was an entry on your part indicating the date you wrote on the calendar the star followed by "LHO purchase of rifle" and likewise the date you made an entry?
Mrs. PAINE. On the 20th.
Mr. JENNER. This is the square having the date March 20?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Is that correct?
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Mrs. PAINE. I might point out that I didn't know Lee had a middle name until I had occasion to fill out forms for Marina in Parkland Hospital.
Mr. JENNER. That is when you learned that his middle name was Harvey and his initial was H?
Mrs. PAINE. Right.
Mr. JENNER. Any other entries in March relating to the Oswalds?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Identify it, please, first as to date.
Mrs. PAINE. And this written at the time it happens to be also on March 20, it says, "Marina," and I judge that this was the time we had scheduled for me to come to her, and I believe it is the date referred to in one of the letters as "until the 20th."
Mr. JENNER. You have already testified about this incident?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Any others?
Mrs. PAINE. Not for the month of March.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, dropping down on that same page to the calendar for April, are there any entries relating to the Oswalds?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. Written at the time there is an entry for Tuesday, April 2, "Marina and Lee, dinner" and it looks like "7 o'clock" above the word "dinner." That has been testified to.
Mr. JENNER. You have testified about that?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. Then there is an entrance on----
Mr. JENNER. An entry?
Mrs. PAINE. An entry, yes, sorry; on April 8 where Marina's name appears, this time written in Russian.
Mr. JENNER. You have testified about that?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, and there is a similar entrance for the 10th of April with an arrow.
Mr. JENNER. Entry, you mean again?
Mrs. PAINE. I am sorry, an entry pushing it over to the 11th, which would indicate to me that the actual meeting took place on the 11th.
Mr. JENNER. You testified about that, is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, I have. And then I have also testified about meeting, picnic, Marina and Lee, on the 20th of April.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mrs. PAINE. And then I have also testified about seeing both of them on the 24th of April, and in that square on my calendar appear the words "Lee and Marina."
Then there was an entry referring to the Oswalds---
Mr. JENNER. You mean theirs?
Mrs. PAINE. Theirs, but written in later, saying, "Marina and Lee Wedding Anniversary two years ago."
Mr. JENNER. That is, you mean you didn't write it on the 30th of April?
Mrs. PAINE. I wrote that later. I learned that date some time in the fall.
Mr. JENNER. You have now identified all entries on the April calendar referring to the Oswalds?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I have.
Mr. JENNER. Let's take May.
Mrs. PAINE. Well, I have referred to the fact that this entry on May 1 "Mary" refers to a babysitter, followed by "War and Peace." This recalls to me the fact that Marina went with me and we took June and we saw the movie War and Peace.
Mr. JENNER. About which you have testified?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. The next entry----
Mr. JENNER. The next one relating to the Oswalds.
Mrs. PAINE. Right, is on May 10 going over to the 11th where in New Orleans and it means these were the days we were going to New Orleans.
Mr. JENNER. And you have testified about that entry and that event?
Mrs. PAINE. I have.
Mr. JENNER. Any other entries on the May calendar relating to the Oswalds?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
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Mr. JENNER. All right; now drop down to June, please.
Mrs. PAINE. No entries relating to the Oswalds in June.
Mr. JENNER. Turn the page and go to the calendar for July.
Mrs. PAINE. I see an entry on July 17 which says, "Marina birthday." This was written either before or after I did know in the spring that her birthday was in July. I am not certain I have got it down on the right date, and that is all.
Mr. JENNER. Drop down then to the calendar for August. Are there any entries relating to the Oswalds on that date?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Turn the page. We have now reached the calendar for September. Are there any entries relating to the Oswalds?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Would you identify them, please?
Mrs. PAINE. On September 23 there is an entry, "A.M. left N.O." meaning New Orleans.
Mr. JENNER. That is an entry of your having departed from New Orleans to go back to----
Mrs. PAINE. And this was written shortly after that event.
Mr. JENNER. To go back to Texas?
Mrs. PAINE. On the 24th is written, "Home arrived 1:30 p.m., from N.O." meaning New Orleans.
Mr. JENNER. When was that entry made?
Mrs. PAINE. These were both made after our arrival back.
Mr. JENNER. But shortly afterwards?
Mrs. PAINE. Very shortly.
Mr. JENNER. Did you say you had a luncheon engagement?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Would you like to suspend, and we have lunch and then come back?
Mrs. PAINE. Sure.
Mr. JENNER. It is now I o'clock. We will be back at 2. Could you finish this calendar?
Mrs. PAINE. We have finished September. We are up to October 1963. There is an entry on Friday the 4th that says, "Gave blood" and that has been referred to in testimony previously.
Mr. JENNER. That was in connection with Marina's entry into Parkland Hospital for the birth of her child?
Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. Crossed out on the 7th of October is "Lee birthday?" On the 18th of October appears an entry "Lee birthday."
Mr. JENNER. You had it in the wrong place initially?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. And then you put it in the right place eventually?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Then on the 11th there is a notation "Marina appointment PMH" Parkland Memorial Hospital, "8 a.m." This was our first appointment as I recall, when we applied for care. There is an entry on October 15, "Work L start." This was a mistaken entry and it is crossed out, written down after he called to say he had received work, he didn't actually start working until the 16th, and I have written on the 16th, "Lee work start," and also "HOS" for hospital, and "10:30 a.m." That would be Parkland. I would be certain it was.
Mr. JENNER. Were those entries made contemporaneously with the occurrence of the events they seek to record?
Mrs. PAINE. All except the corrected, "Lee work start," which was made after the assassination, when I realized he didn't start work on the same day that he received the acceptance.
Mr. JENNER. How soon after the assassination did you make that corrected entry?
Mrs. PAINE. Quite soon I'd say. I was being asked each day by many people when did he start to work, and when I put together the necessary sequence of
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events of having been at coffee at my neighbors, following by his applying, following by his starting, it had to be on the 16th that he had started. Then on the 20th of October is a notation, one word in Russian which says "she was born." It is followed by "10:41 p.m., 6 pounds 15 ounces."
Mr. JENNER. And that refers to Marina's child Rachel?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
On October 22 is a notation, "Baby come home noon" or "came home". That means exactly what it says.
Mr. JENNER. And was it entered contemporaneously with the event?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it was.
Mr. JENNER. The entry of the baby's birth, was that entered contemporaneously with the event?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; right after.
Mr. JENNER. Let me say at this moment this calendar, you employed it sometimes as a diary entry, sometimes as prospective appointments, and sometimes to record past events after they had occurred?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
On the 29th of October appears the entry, "Dal" short for Dallas "Junie" she had a clinic appointment.
Mr. JENNER. That is the child of Lee Harvey, Lee and Marina Oswald?
Mrs. PAINE. The older daughter.
Mr. JENNER. Now, you have turned the page to the calendar for November.
Mrs. PAINE. That is right. You asked me at some time during my testimony was I away during the weekend for any length of time other than to go to the grocery store. I had forgotten but I see here a doctor appointment, "Dr. Liebes," on Saturday would have been made the day before, meaning the child is sick, or that morning, and it means that I was away for an hour and 15 minutes or an hour and a half.
Mr. JENNER. What day is this?
Mrs. PAINE. On Saturday, the 2d of November.
Mr. JENNER. This is the weekend as to which you had some difficulty recalling whether Lee actually visited your home?
Mrs. PAINE. Beginning Friday or beginning Saturday, or possibly he wasn't out.
Mr. JENNER. You recall that the FBI interviewed you on Friday, November 1.
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. And do you have an entry to that effect?
Mrs. PAINE. No, I did not mark that down.
Mr. JENNER. Is it your recollection that Lee, if he didn't visit or come to your home on the 1st, that he did come on the 2d?
Mrs. PAINE. I have no clear recollection.
Then there is an entry on November 6, "9:30 dental clinic Marina", it means exactly that. We took her to a dental clinic to get dental care.
Mr. JENNER. And that was probably an entry made in advance to, remind you that she had a dental appointment?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
There is an entry on November 11, "Veterans Day." I have already referred to the fact that I was away from 9 or so in the morning until about 2 in the afternoon and this was a day that Lee was at home or at the Fifth Street address at my home.
Mr. JENNER. What date is this?
Mrs. PAINE. Veterans Day, the 11th. It was a Monday.
Mr. JENNER. It is a Monday. And he was at home?
Mrs. PAINE. He was at home that day, and I was away from about 9 in the morning.
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me so we don't get the record confused as to what home means.
He was at your home?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. There is an entry on the 14th of November, "8 a.m. June Oswald." This I recall to be a reference to taking her to a TB clinic. There was a slight suspicion that she might have been exposed to TB, but this is
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followed by an entry on the 21st, "Checked TB test" and at that time it was clearly negative. She did not have tuberculosis.
In the same connection, there is an entry on the 18th of November, "1 o'clock TB children's clinic", abbreviation of children's, and I would judge we didn't go all of those times. One of those probably was changed.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall that it was but one TB examination visit?
Mrs. PAINE. There were two visits. We went and they scratched the skin to apply the test. Then you go back to have it read. And she also had X-rays taken.
Mr. JENNER. Could those double entries indicate that?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, there were three entries. She only went twice.
Mr. JENNER. I see. Is it possible you might have gone three times?
Mrs. PAINE. It is possible.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Have you identified all three entries now?
Mrs. PAINE. I have.
There is an entry on the 20th of November, "Marina 10 a.m. dental clinic" which is the second dental clinic reference.
There is an entry on the 22d of November "9:15 a.m, Lynn Lollar."
Mr. JENNER. How do you spell Lynn?
Mrs. PAINE. L-y-n-n, which refers to a dental appointment for my daughter to which I have testified. There is also in pencil----
Mr. JENNER. Its significance is that it took you out of the home.
Mrs. PAINE. That is its significance, yes. That is the only reason it is related. There is also a penciled note at the bottom of the month that says, "Planned Parent," arrow up, arrow down, meaning this week or next visit the Planned Parenthood Clinic, with Marina, for Marina. This brings us to December.
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, that elicits a little curiosity on my part.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Or interest, rather, not just bare curiosity, pertinent curiosity, should I put it that way. What was the purpose of that visit? I am acquainted with planned parenthood society. What was the purpose of the visit? Was she concerned about having more children?
Mrs. PAINE. That is exactly it.
Mr. JENNER. Would you relate that and your conversations with her on that score?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. I might go back and say that in March when she first mentioned to me she was expecting a child and we talked about birth control at that time I also said in March that I would be glad to go with her after the birth of the baby to the Planned. Parenthood Clinic to get advice and necessary help, so that she could prevent further conceptions if she wished to.
Mr. JENNER. Was she concerned about the ability, for example, I am just casting about for a reason to stimulate your recollection, the ability of Lee to support a family of additional children, a larger family?
Mrs. PAINE. I recall her commenting, and this most likely in the fall, that Lee had said to her, have as many children as she wanted, but her own feeling was that it is difficult to raise two, and especially as they didn't have a great deal of money, that two would be a good size family. We also discussed the differing attitudes between Americans and Russians on what is a large family. Two is considered quite a large family, two or three in Russia, where both parents normally work, and it is difficult to support a very large family.
Mr. JENNER. And did you keep the appointment with Planned Parenthood?
Mr. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever attend with her a Planned Parenthood meeting or session, visit?
Mr. PAINE. Her husband was killed before it was time to go.
Mr. JENNER. That is, Lee Oswald was?
Mrs. PAINE. One had to wait until at least 6 weeks after the birth of the baby before going, or 5 or 6 weeks.
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Mr. JENNER. Go ahead.
Mrs. PAINE. I go on to December.
There are two notations, both written down in advance of this time, and both notes indicating when to go to a clinic, and neither of these appointments was kept.
There is a notation on the 3d of December, "Vine Clinic, Bay 12 noon." The Vine Street Clinic was a well baby clinic in Dallas.
Mr. JENNER. What do you mean "well baby"?
Mrs. PAINE. That is a clinic where any mother can bring children for inoculations, or preventive health measures. I think I have already mentioned a previous notation about the Vine Clinic on November 5. I might have skipped that.
Mr. JENNER. I think you did.
Mr. PAINE. There is an entry on November 5, "Vine Clinic 12 o'clock."
Mr. JENNER. And that was to be a visit by Marina with her child?
Mr. PAINE. June.
Mr. JENNER. June. Did that include Rachel as well?
Mrs. PAINE. Rachel only went along, and we were told that she should come in about four weeks.
Mr. JENNER. That Marina should?
Mrs. PAINE. No, that is the baby.
Mr. JENNER. The baby June?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, should be 6 weeks old or so before they give the first--no, that the baby Rachel should also come, but that she should be older before giving her the first inoculation.
Mr. JENNER. Therefore, you made the entry as of December 5, to bring the baby for the first time to that clinic? Of course, that never took place.
Mrs. PAINE. I might point out that we were advised that we could change the registration of June and make registration for Rachel in Irving at a well baby clinic instead of in Dallas, but since the expectation was that Marina would be back in Dallas after the 1st of the year, we decided to maintain that clinic.
Mr. JENNER. That is of interest to me, Mrs. Paine. There had been discussion between you and Marina in which there appeared to be an expectation on her part that she would have rejoined her husband by the 1st of the year?
Mrs. PAINE. I thought I had already made that clear, yes indeed, and this Just adds to that indication.
Mr. JENNER. So that these are entries that physically are related to the current expectation then existing of her return to her husband, joining him in Dallas.
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. To live with him?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
There is also a notation on December 4, "Clinic 6 weeks".
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me.
The first of those entries was made on November 5, is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE. Just a minute.
No, October 29, "Dallas Junie" is the first Vine Street Clinic visit, followed 1 week later by a reading of her patch test, whatever the TB test was which registered a false, positive but we went to the TB children's clinic to be certain that it was a false positive, and she was cleared of any suspicion of TB on the 21st of November.
Mr. JENNER. What I was getting at is that when you made the entry on November 5, 1963----
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And I would gather substantially contemporaneously with that an entry on December 5, 1963----
Mrs. PAINE. December 3.
Mr. JENNER. December 3, 1963, that there was consciously in the minds of both you and Marina as of November 5 that she would be rejoining her husband by the first of the year.
Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. I can give a little more detail on this.
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Mr. JENNER. I wish you would, on that.
Mrs. PAINE. We were visited at the home by a public health nurse in Irving----
Mr. JENNER. When was that?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall. It doesn't appear, and I don't recall, though they might have records of it.
Mr. JENNER. I am not trying to get the exact date. I am really----
Mrs. PAINE. It was after she had registered at Parkland, it was after the baby was born.
Mr. JENNER. And was it in the month of October?
Mrs. PAINE. Probably.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mrs. PAINE. And we were advised by this public health nurse that there was a well baby clinic in Irving, which she conducted, and that she had been given our name and address because of the care at Parkland, and she said that Marina could come and bring her children to the clinic in Irving.
Then I mentioned that they had contact already with the Vine Street Clinic, and I think after this visit from the nurse, Marina and I discussed where it would be best for her to have her----
Mr. JENNER. Her clinic care?
Mrs. PAINE. Her association, her clinic, yes.
Mr. JENNER. And during the course of that conversation, go on----
Mrs. PAINE. Marina expressed the opinion that it would continue in Dallas.
Mr. JENNER. Because----
Mrs. PAINE. Because they would be again in Dallas.
Mr. JENNER. And that squared with your impressions at that time?
Mrs. PAINE. Indeed it did.
Mr. JENNER. Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. JENNER. Return to the record.
Mrs. PAINE. There was another clinic visit that doesn't appear here. I don't know why. Obviously, a lot of things happened that I didn't write down but there was also a visit to, I will call it, a sick baby clinic where you go a child is ailing.
Mr. JENNER. And who was ailing? Or possibly so?
Mrs. PAINE. My recollection was that no one was ailing, but we learned of it and wanted to make registration. It was in the adjacent building to the TB clinic.
Oh, no; I recall now why we went.
At the first Vine Street Clinic meeting, which is, I judge, the 29th of October, the physician recommended that June go to the Freeman Memorial Clinic.
Mr. JENNER. F-r-e-e-m-a-n?
Mrs. PAINE. To the best of my recollection. I am not certain. June has---I don't know what it is called, but it is like a birthmark except that it is not at the time of birth but a little blood vessel that collects and makes a red spot. This was on her rummy.
Mr. JENNER. It was on Maria's?
Mrs. PAINE. It was on June's tummy and the doctor at the well baby clinic suggested that she should have this looked at, and in this connection he referred us to this other children's clinic, and we went for an examination there at some time, and it doesn't appear on my calendar, and the doctors there concluded that it was not necessary for that to be taken off. At the same time, we filled out forms, more forms about Marina, so that she could be eligible, and she did then get a card so that she could come to this clinic at any time that her children were sick. And they no doubt would have a record of when that was done.
My own best recollection would be that it was the morning of the 18th of November, although there is no reference to it here. Then the final notation is December 4. I started to mention this, but I don't believe I finished, "Clinic 6 weeks check 1." One refers to the post partum check at Parkland Memorial Hospital.
Mr. JENNER. This was a part of the postnatal care?
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Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. For Marina?
Mrs. PAINE. For Marina, and, of course, to check the baby's health, too, and I simply sent notation about this appointment to Secret Service. That is all.
Mr. JENNER. Did Marina or June or Rachel or Lee, to your knowledge, have any medical care by private physician, during the time of your acquaintance with them?
Mrs. PAINE. Not to my knowledge, and I would be surprised.
Mr. JENNER. Surprised? Why?
Mrs. PAINE. If they had. They had very little money, and this arrangement for the well baby clinic had been made by Marina well before I knew her. June had already been once or twice in Dallas to the Vine Street Clinic. I judged that Marina, a trained pharmacist, was concerned about health, and wanted to get proper medical care whether or not they could pay for it.
Mr. JENNER. All right, now have we covered all of your calendar, which sometimes served as a diary, being Commission Exhibit No. 401?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. All right. We will adjourn until 2:15.
(Whereupon, at 1:20 p.m., the proceeding was recessed.)
TESTIMONY OF RUTH HYDE PAINE RESUMED
The proceedings reconvened at 2:45 p.m.
Mr. JENNER. We will resume. Directing your attention to Commission Exhibit No. 402, which is your address book, would you do with that what you did with your calendar diary, and go through it page by page, and tell us of any entries on particular pages which relate to the Oswalds?
The first sheet of the exhibit is the cover. Next is the inside cover, and the reverse of the first page. Is there anything on any of the entries which appear on those pages which relate to the Oswalds?
Mrs. PAINE. The one on the left is the police officer who picked up the address book.
Mr. JENNER. Those are his initials and date that he picked it up?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't know who picked it up. And I didn't see it was gone.
Mr. JENNER. Oh, yes; as you testified. The next page is the "A" page, the left and right hand.
Mrs. PAINE. These have no significance to the Oswalds.
Mr. JENNER. The next is the B page, left and right.
Mrs. PAINE. No significance.
Mr. JENNER. Bell Helicopter is the place at which your husband is employed?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. The next page is the C page, left-hand.
Mrs. PAINE. You are still on B.
Mr. JENNER. I am what?
Mrs. PAINE. You are still on B.
Mr. JENNER. The left-hand here on this exhibit is the reverse side of the B page, is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Anything on there relating to the Oswalds?
Mrs. PAINE. You have on this page two neighbors of mine, Ann Bell met both Marina and Lee, and she has been interviewed.
Mr. JENNER. Other than that?
Mrs. PAINE. Other than that, no significance.
Mr. JENNER. The next is the right-hand of the B page, and the first page of the C page. Any of those names or addresses related to the Oswalds?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Next is the opposite face of the C page and the first page of the D page.
Mrs. PAINE. Nothing there related to the Oswalds.
Mr. JENNER. The next is the reverse side of the C page and the first page of the D page.
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Mrs. PAINE. Also nothing related.
Mr. JENNER. The next is the reverse side of the D page and the first page of the E page.
Mrs. PAINE. Nothing there.
Mr. JENNER. Next, the reverse side of the D page and the first face of the E page.
Mrs. PAINE. Nothing of significance with relation to the Oswalds.
Mr. JENNER. Next is the reverse of the E page and the first face of the F page.
Mrs. PAINE. I recall being refreshed by this entry, Four Continents Book Store. I went into this book store during the summer, my summer trip, and inquired of the lady at the cashier's desk something that I wanted to find, and realized that she did not speak any English, she did not understand me. And I heard other people there is a book store where you can obtain materials in Russian--it imports from Russia, and had materials that I wanted to get to help me with teaching Russian.
Mr. JENNER. Is this located in Irving, Tex.?
Mrs. PAINE. This is in New York City. And----
Mr. JENNER. You have not frequented that place before?
Mrs. PAINE. I have been in there before, yes; in a different year.
Mr. JENNER. Were you aware, then, of the factor you have now recounted?
Mrs. PAINE. No; the only reason I bring it up is that I related this incident to Marina as an illustration of the fact that one needn't know English fluently to get a job if there were a Russian-speaking community, where Russian could be used. That is all.
Mr. JENNER. Then the reverse of the page and the first face of the G page.
Mrs. PAINE. Nothing of significance here.
Mr. JENNER. Next, the reverse of the F page and the first face of the G page.
Mrs. PAINE. Well, there is a reference to D. Gravitis, and also the name of her son-in-law appears here.
Mr. JENNER. And her son-in-law is?
Mrs. PAINE. Ilya Mamantov.
Mr. JENNER. And at the bottom of the page?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; there is an entry for Everett Glover, whose name has appeared in the testimony, and whose connection is known.
Mr. JENNER. Nothing else?
Mrs. PAINE. Nothing else.
Mr. JENNER. The reverse of the G page and the face of the H page.
Mrs. PAINE. Nothing significant there.
Mr. JENNER. Globe Parcel Service. Didn't you make some reference to that your testimony?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; not in any connection to the Oswalds. But this was an address given to me by my Russian tutor. This is a service which will help you to send parcels to people behind the Iron Curtain. They see to it that it is either delivered or returned--whereas, sometimes without that service it will be neither delivered or returned.
Mr. JENNER. Did you seek to resort to its services in connection with any of your association with the Oswalds?
Mrs. PAINE. No. I, in fact, have not used the service. I only have their address.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Next is the reverse of the G page and the facing page of the H page.
Mrs. PAINE. Mild significance in that the name of my one Russian student appears here, Bill Hootkins.
Mr. JENNER. And his telephone number----
Mrs. PAINE. Is there; yes.
Mr. JENNER. The reverse of the H page and the face of the I page. Now, let's take the reverse of the H page first, first side. The two page---the left-hand one has Samuel and Liz Hagner, and the opposite page at the top has Carol Hyde. On those two pages, are there any entries dealing with the Oswalds or relating to them?
Mrs. PAINE. None; except that it contains an address of several of my relatives,
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and these are people to whom I spoke about the Oswalds, and that has appeared in the testimony. Other than that, no significance.
Mr. JENNER. Next would be----there are some empty pages. We better record that fact. The reverse side----
Mrs. PAINE. They are not in your exhibit.
Mr. JENNER. As we have gone along, there are some blank pages in your address book.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. But they are not in the exhibit.
Mr. JENNER. Those blank pages, except as they are in proximity to pages that have some entries on them, were not photostated.
Mrs. PAINE. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And do not appear as part of Commission Exhibit 402?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, I am now directing your attention in the picture exhibit to the page on which the letter J appears at the top.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. There is nothing of significance here in relation to the Oswalds.
Mr. JENNER. And next is a page in which a letter K appears at the top of the list of letters.
Mrs. PAINE. Nothing of significance here.
Mr. JENNER. The next is a page in which the top letter is L.
Mrs. PAINE. Nothing here.
Mr. JENNER. And the next, on the right-hand side is a page, the top letter of which is M. On the opposite page in the photograph there are entries also. Look at both pages, please.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mrs. PAINE. There is one significant entry for Dutz and Lillian Mutter.
Mr. JENNER. 757 French Street, New Orleans?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Telephone number HU 8-4326.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Those are the aunt and uncle of the late Oswald?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. And this was filled in after my second visit to New Orleans.
Mr. JENNER. How long after? You mean while you were there?
Mrs. PAINE. Probably while I was there. But I know I didn't have their address or their name correct during the summer.
Mr. JENNER. It was during your visit--your second visit to New Orleans that you learned fully of their name and address and telephone number, and you made an entry in your address book?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. There is one above that, is there not?
Mrs. PAINE. And I believe this person has been referred to in testimony--Helen Mamikonian. She was my roommate at Middlebury College, summer Russian school.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, the next is a sheet that is opposite the sheet, the top letter of which is M.
Mrs. PAINE. This just gives a current address for the same person--Helen Mamikonian.
Mr. JENNER. Thank you. And the next is a sheet, the top letter of which is N.
Mrs. PAINE. Nothing significant here.
Mr. JENNER. The next is a sheet, the top letter of which is O. You have testified fully as to all the entries on that sheet, have you not, heretofore?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I have.
Mr. JENNER. The next is a sheet in which the top letter appearing is the letter P.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Are there any entries on that sheet that relate to the Oswalds?
Mrs. PAINE. The entry for Plattner Clinic, in Grand Prairie, was made because I inquired of them about the cost of maternity care at their clinic and hospital, for Marina.
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Mr. JENNER. No other entry of significance on that page?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. The next is the page opposite that--the top letter of which is Q.
Mrs. PAINE. No significance here.
Mr. JENNER. The next is the page the top letter of which is R.
Mrs. PAINE. Significant here is an entry for Ed and Dorothy Roberts.
Mr. JENNER. Those are your next door neighbors?
Mrs. PAINE. Those are my next door neighbors, and also Randle, which refers to Mrs. William Randle. And the one below has been covered in testimony---that is Frolick and Pen Rainey.
Mr. JENNER. Frolick, I should say to you, Mrs. Paine, is spelled F-r-o-e-l-i-c-h although you do not have it so entered. The next page is the page opposite the page, the top letter of which is S.
Mrs. PAINE. Nothing of significance here.
Mr. JENNER. The next is a page the top letter of which, for some strange reason is also S. It is the opposite----
Mrs. PAINE. The last one you had was facing.
Mr. JENNER. And this is the reverse side of the S page. All right.
Mrs. PAINE. No significance in relation to the Oswalds. It does list the name of the school at which I taught Russian, Saint Mark's School.
Mr. JENNER. By the way, would you identify the Strattons?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; they are very good friends of mine who I have know from work with the Young Friends Committee of North America. He was chairman of the East-West Contacts Committee while I was chairman of the subcommittee on pen pal correspondence.
Mr. JENNER. Nothing else on the S page?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. The next is a page on which the top letter appears to be T.
Mrs. PAINE. No significance here.
Mr. JENNER. The next is a page, the right-hand one of which has the top letter U, and then there are entries not on that page but on the page to the left of that.
Mrs. PAINE. No significance.
Mr. JENNER. The next is a page on which the top letter appears also as U.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; no significance here.
Mr. JENNER. But the first name on which refers to Dick Uviller.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. The next is a page the top letter of which appears to be V.
Mrs. PAINE. No significance here.
Mr. JENNER. The next is a page the top letter of which appears to be W.
Mrs. PAINE. No significance here.
Mr. JENNER. The next is a page the top letter of which is Y.
Mrs. PAINE. No significance in relation to the Oswalds, except as testified. I did talk to Mrs. Young.
Mr. JENNER. Yes. Those are entries dealing with your in-laws, the Youngs?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. And there are three entries.
Mrs. PAINE. No. The first one has no relation whatsoever to my relatives.
Mr. JENNER. That is a different Young entirely?
Mrs. PAINE. That is.
Mr. JENNER. But the next two, Arthur M. Young, and Charles Morris--those are your in-laws?
Mrs. PAINE. And Arthur Young's father, Charles Morris Young.
Mr. JENNER. Charles Morris Young is Arthur M. Young's father?
Mrs. PAINE. Father.
Mr. JENNER. And Arthur M. Young is the stepfather of your husband, Michael Ralph Paine?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. And Charles Morris Young is the stepgrandfather of your husband, is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; that is correct.
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Mr. JENNER. All right. Mrs. Paine, would you please give us your reactions to and your concept of Marina Oswald as a person, your reflections on her personality generally, and her character and integrity, her philosophy? What kind of a person was she?
Mrs. PAINE. I enjoyed knowing her. She was a great deal of company to me in my home. She liked to help me with the language problems I had. She was very good at explaining a word I didn't understand in other Russian words that would then make clear to me the meaning of the word I didn't understand.
She is, as I have already testified, a hard worker. She liked to help around the house. She had some doubts about her ability in cooking, unfounded doubts, I felt. She wanted to learn from me about cooking. I did most of the meal preparation. But she would occasionally prepare meals, and she taught me some things. I thing she is a mixture, as are many people, of confidence and lack of confidence.
She knows, I am certain, that she is an intelligent and able person. But, on the other hand, as I have testified, she was hesitant to learn to pronounce to practice pronouncing English words and didn't consider that she had much ability in English. She did say to me in the fall--I think it was after Mr. Hosty's visit that she observed of herself that unlike the time when she had first come to this country and did not even attempt to listen to English conversation, she had picked up enough so that it was worth her while to try to listen, and then she could pick up some words and some meaning. I may have already testified to this.
I think she is a person who prized her personal privacy. She did---I should say we confided to one another about our respective marriages, as I have already testified. There was some intimacy of confidence, of this kind of confidence, I should say. But I felt that she prized and guarded her own personal privacy.
She was in some ways--she talked with some enthusiasm and detail to me about her time in Minsk, when she was dating and the good times that she had had there, living at that time with her aunt and uncle in Minsk--how she enjoyed herself, and something of the social life she enjoyed.
She spoke of spending time with hairdos and clothes, what to wear, and when she looked back on it, girlish pastimes that she had no time for now as a young mother.
Mr. JENNER. Did she ever say anything to you--you brought something out about Russia--about any hopes or desires or thoughts about America while she was in Russia?
Mrs. PAINE. She did say once that she had dreamed of coming to America. I think she meant dreamed while sleeping.
Mr. JENNER. I beg your pardon?
Mrs. PAINE. I think she meant dreamed while sleeping.
Mr. JENNER. Did she indicate anything beyond that--that is, that she had a dream--did she indicate any hope or desire or affinity, willingness to come to America?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; that this was also a hope on her part.
Mr. JENNER. Did she indicate this was a hope prior to the time she had married Lee Oswald?
Mrs. PAINE. It wasn't clear to me when this hope arose.
Mr. JENNER. Did she indicate it was a hope or desire on her part wholly divorced from Lee Oswald?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, you were telling me about your impressions of Marina's personality, her character, her integrity.
Mrs. PAINE. We spoke once, to my recollection, about our respective beliefs in God. She told me that she observed, looking at the nations of the world, and their religious books, like the Bible, the Koran, that people all over the world for centuries believed in God, had this faith, and she felt that such an idea could not arise so many places as it were spontaneously and live on so many places unless there were something to it.
Mr. JENNER. Did she say anything about the philosophy in Russia toward religion as negative or positive?
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Mrs. PAINE. This was implied. I can't give you a specific reference, except that she did say her grandmother was a very religious person.
Mr. JENNER. By the way, did she have her children baptized in this country?
Mrs. PAINE. One of the first things I knew--and this was told to me in March of 1963----one of the first times I went to see her at their apartment, on Neely Street, she showed me a baptismal certificate for June, and was Pleased with how nice it looked, its attractive form. I have since read in the paper that she had this baptismal ceremony without Lee's knowledge and consent. She made no reference to me at that time of that sort, and nothing to indicate that I shouldn't tell anyone I pleased, Lee included, that there was such a baptismal certificate, or refer to it freely.
Mr. JENNER. In her discussions of her life in Russia, did there arise occasions when she discussed communism or the Communist Party or people who were interested in communism or the Communist Party in Russia?
Mrs. PAINE. She referred rather disparagingly to some of the young Communist youth group people. She felt they were rather dull and attended meetings and heard the same thing over and over, said much the same thing. She also spoke disparagingly of the content of this paper which I said she told me was from Minsk, and always containing many columns of speech by Khrushchev, speech by Khrushchev, speech by comrade chairman of the presidium, whatever Khrushchev was. And she found this very dull. Very repetitious. She, herself, expressed interest in the movies and theater activities in the town. She always turned to this portion----
Mr. JENNER. Legitimate theater?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. She turned to this portion----
Mr. JENNER. When you say town, you mean Minsk?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. She turned to this portion of the newspaper and really expressed herself as only interested in that. In this connection, I can say she told me the plots of movies that she had seen some years before, and retold them in some detail, with considerable interest.
Mr. JENNER. Did she say anything about having seen movies in Russia originating in America, in the United States?
Mrs. PAINE. Possibly. I don't recall specifically.
Mr. JENNER. Did she indicate how she had acquired her interest in the United States?
Mrs. PAINE. No; she didn't.
Mr. JENNER. What was leading her to be favorably disposed to come and live in this country?
Mrs. PAINE. No; she did not.
She spoke of having met some young Cuban students who were traveling in Russia, or studying in Minsk, or both--I am not certain. But she commented on how Latin their personality was, how warm and open, and how they would strum guitars in the street and go about in noisy crowds.
Mr. JENNER. Did she ever say anything to you or intimate at any time prior to November 22--let's say prior to November 23--of any desire, attempt or otherwise on the part of Lee Oswald to reach Cuba?
Mrs. PAINE. No; she did not.
Mr. JENNER. Was--were the references to Cuba limited to those with regard to Castro on the FPCC incident in New Orleans?
Mrs. PAINE. Lee is the only one who mentioned the FPCC incident, and then without the initials or name of that organization. And then, of course, this reference in Minsk was to students who had been there only.
Mr. JENNER. You have given me a number of specifics. But I don't think you have yet told me your opinion of Marina Oswald the person, insofar as her character, integrity, general philosophy--as a person and a woman.
Mrs. PAINE. I like her and care a lot about her. I feel that--as I have testified, any full communication between us was limited by my modest command of the language, and that we were also and are different sorts of people. I feel that I cannot predict how she might feel in a particular situation, whereas some of my friends I feel I can guess that they would feel as I would in a situation. I don't have that feeling about Marina. She is more of an enigma to me.
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Mr. JENNER. But you say she is an appreciative person?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I would. I could not convince her of how helpful it was to me to have her at my home in the fall of 1963. She was--thanked me too much, I felt. It was very helpful to me, to have her there, both because I was lonely, and because I was interested in the language. And I also reassured her many times that it was not costing me unduly financially--that this was not a burden. But I never felt I fully convinced her.
Mr. JENNER. Well, is there anthing you would like to say off record or add to this record with respect to Marina Oswald as a person?
Mrs. PAINE. I think I have said the bulk of it.
Mr. JENNER. I will ask you this--your view or opinion as to whether Marina Oswald was or could have been an agent of the government of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republic.
Mrs. PAINE. My opinion is that she could not have been.
Mr. JENNER. She was not and could not have been?
Mrs. PAINE. Was not and could not have been.
Mr. JENNER. I wish to include both--that she was not and could not have been?
Mrs. PAINE. My impression was distinctly that she was not. I don't exclude the possibility that she could have been. I don't feel I have knowledge. It would seem to me highly unlikely. But that is different from being certain. I might add this. I think--things she said to me on the evening of the 22d.
Mr. JENNER. 22d of November 1963?
Mrs. PAINE. After we had returned from the police station.
Mr. JENNER. You had returned to your home after being at the police station?
Mrs. PAINE. We returned to the home, had dinner, had talked for a little while in the living room, seen and sent home two Life reporters, and then were preparing for bed. And she and I talked a little bit, standing in the kitchen. She said both of the following things in a spirit of confusion and with a stunned quality, I would say, to her voice and her manner. She said to me all the information she had or most of it that she had about the Kennedy family came to her through translation from Lee, and that she thought----
Mr. JENNER. What do you mean translation?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, in other words, if Lee read in the paper something about the Kennedys, or if there was something in Time Magazine about them, he would translate to Marina, that is, put into Russian what was said in this news media, and, therefore, inform her. And she thought that if he had had negative feelings about Kennedy, that this would have come along with the translation from Lee. But there was no such indication of dislike from Lee to her.
Mr. JENNER. Now, this impressed you why?
Mrs. PAINE. I just record that she said it.
Mr. JENNER. It has impressed you to the point at which you wish to relate it here. Why is that? You were relating it to what--to her groping as to why her husband committed this act?
Mrs. PAINE. Her wondering whether he could have, but not in a defensive way, but in this stunned way that I am trying to describe. And in the same way she told me that----
Mr. JENNER. That is, is it your concept that she was ruminating--how could he have said these things or called her attention to these things with respect to President Kennedy, and still have assassinated him?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Was it in the sense that she was hurt, she could not understand it--or was she trying to rationalize that her husband, because of this, could not have assassinated the President?
Mrs. PAINE. It was more in the sense being hurt and confused. Not concluding that he had assassinated the President. But not attempting to conclude from this small piece of information that he had not. She also said that just the night before, the evening of the 21st, Lee had said to her he wanted to get an apartment soon, just as soon as she could, together again. And this was said very much with a feeling of hurt.
Mr. JENNER. Hurt what?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, I have to interpret, because we didn't talk about it. But
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my interpretation was that here he was making this gesture of caring for her, and wanting to bring the family together, and live with her again on a full-time basis. But then on the other hand, how could he be suggesting this if he had been planning to do something which would inevitably lead to the break-up of the family. This, again, in the spirit of the other comment from her just related, of confusion and hurt, rather than defense.
Mr. JENNER. That is, rather than defense of him?
Mrs. PAINE. Of him; yes.
Mr. JENNER. Anything else?
Mrs. PAINE. Nothing else.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have a recollection of having written your sister in June of 1957--as a matter of fact, on June 29, 1957-- [See Ruth Paine Exhibit 469, and transcript 390, post.] in which, to orient the letter, you stated, "Last Saturday I started, Russian class," and that was your class at the University of Pennsylvania in the summer of 1957--in which you recounted the reasons why you were undertaking the study of Russian. Do you recall such a letter?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall the letter, but it certainly is likely I wrote it.
Mr. JENNER. In which you said, one, that you enjoyed the study of languages.
Is it a fact that that was one of the motivations?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And, two, that the language would be socially useful to you?
Mrs. PAINE. Socially?
Mr. JENNER. Would be socially useful to you.
Mrs. PAINE. I don't understand what that meant.
Mr. JENNER. Well, I can't explain it. I assume it meant that you were recounting that you might use it in your social intercourse with others who also spoke Russian, in seeking--for example, concerning your pen pal activity and that sort of thing. This does not awaken anything?
Mrs. PAINE. It doesn't awaken any recollection; no.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Three, that it advanced your "interest in Russian exchange."
Mrs. PAINE. Well, I may have hoped so, starting Russian. But my actual skill didn't progress fast enough to be of any real use.
Mr. JENNER. And, also, that ever since, "The Young Friends Conference in 1955," you had felt a leaning to the study of language.
Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. And I have so testified--I used the word "calling" in the testimony.
Mr. JENNER. And do you recall emphasizing in that letter that the study of Russian on your part was an intellectual decision, using those very words---intellectual decision?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall using those words. It is reasonable.
Mr. JENNER. As you recall back now, was that--did that activate you?
Mrs. PAINE. I am not entirely certain what I meant by intellectual decision.
Mr. JENNER. I assume you meant a deliberate one.
Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes.
Mr. JENNER. One of intellectual curiosity?
Mrs. PAINE. I would judge so.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall writing your mother, as far back as October 1956, that--no; this letter was to your whole family-- that is, those back in Columbus, addressed to your mother, your father, and--what was--Essie?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, I think probably family in this case just was my mother and father at that time. Essie is my brother's wife.
Mr. JENNER. In which you then said you were thinking about studying Russian as an intellectual pursuit? Does that sound like something you might have said then?
Mrs. PAINE. It sounds like I thought myself more intellectual at the time than I do now.
Mr. JENNER. But as you harken back on it, the elements I have now recounted to you from correspondence with your mother and your folks, are those factors which at least impelled you at that age and that development in your life to undertake the study of Russian?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
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Mr. JENNER. And these are all in addition to those reasons that you gave us yesterday, of course.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. I would like to know if you had any conversations with Marina on any of the following subjects. I have a long list, most of which you have already covered, and I will skip those. Have you now recounted to us all of the conversations you had with Marina respecting interviews by the FBI?
Mrs. PAINE. To the best of my recollection; yes.
Mr. JENNER. Any conversations--have you told us all on the subject of Lee Oswald's Texas School Book Depository job, his reactions to it, the nature of the work, his fellow employees?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did he ever speak of his fellow employees at the Depository?
Mrs. PAINE. No; except Wesley, who drove him to work.
Mr. JENNER. You have told us all he has ever recounted to you on the subject of his military service?
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. His political views?
Mr. PAINE. Yes; I believe I have told you all.
Mr. JENNER. Any particular books in which he was interested?
Mr. PAINE. I don't know of any books.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. PAINE. None that I saw him read.
Mr. JENNER. You have told us all you can recall about Oswald's treatment of Marina?
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And any conversations you had with him on the subject?
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did he ever discuss or did she ever discuss the matter of his dishonorable discharge from the Marines?
Mrs. PAINE. That was never mentioned.
Mr. JENNER. By either she or him?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right. Not by either one.
Mr. JENNER. You were aware of some of that, were you? You were aware of the fact that he was first honorably discharged and then when he reached Russia and attempted to defect----
Mrs. PAINE. Only through reading the paper after the assassination.
Mr. JENNER. Yes. All I am seeking is, you were aware of the incident at the time that you met the Oswalds?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I was aware that he had gone to Russia, but not that he had received an unsatisfactory discharge, whatever the word is.
Mr. JENNER. When did you first learn of that?
Mrs. PAINE. From the newspaper after the assassination. Undesirable, the word is.
Mr. JENNER. Undesirable discharge. Did he ever speak of Governor Connally?
Mrs. PAINE. Never, to my recollection.
Mr. JENNER. Did she?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Did he ever speak or--well, did he ever speak in your presence of his dreams or aspirations?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Either for himself individually or for his family?
Mrs. PAINE. No; he didn't.
Mr. JENNER. Have you told us everything about her dreams and aspirations for herself and her family that you can now recall?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't believe I have said that she related to me that she would like some day to have her own home and her own furniture.
Mr. JENNER. I think you told us that this morning.
Mrs. PAINE. It appears in the Look article, but I don't think I mentioned it.
Mr. JENNER. Oh, yes; speaking of articles, at any time during the meeting
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you had with her on March 9, was anything said about magazine articles let us say--did you discuss the Life article with her?
Mrs. PAINE. We discussed the recent Time cover issue, on which Marina appeared.
Mr. JENNER. Oh, I see. What was said on that score?
Mrs. PAINE. She thought it was misleading.
Mr. JENNER. That the article itself was misleading?
Mrs. PAINE. Further, she thought it was unkind to her.
Mr. JENNER. Unkind in the sense that it was inaccurately unkind or that some things were recounted she thought ought not to have been recounted?
Mrs. PAINE. Inaccurately unkind. And she said something to the effect of judging that the American people or at least portions of the press would have to look that way upon the wife of an accused assassin. With which I disagreed.
Mr. JENNER. Well, what did you say?
Mrs. PAINE. I said I thought that was Time Magazine in particular, and had nothing to do with the views of the populace in general, I said I thought that was better reflected by the letters that she had gotten from a great many thoughtful and concerned people who had written to her of their sympathy and support.
Mr. JENNER. Did she respond to that comment on your part?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall any particular thing she said.
Mr. JENNER. Did she evidence any feeling or reaction in your meeting on March 9 to the generosity of Americans who had made these contributions voluntarily?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; she did, particularly in response to a comment I made.
Mr. JENNER. Tell us that.
Mrs. PAINE. We had been talking about the lawyer and business manager whom she is trying to fire.
Mr. JENNER. That is Mr. Thorne and Mr. Martin?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; and I said she has seen the range of kind of people in America--one side the many generous people who sent her thoughtful notes and small checks to help her in her financial difficulty, and on the other side the wolves who wanted to gain money from this situation for themselves. And she concurred in that.
Mr. JENNER. She was aware of that distinction?
Did she indicate an awareness of that?
Mrs. PAINE. She thought that was an apt description; yes. I felt that she thought that.
Mr. JENNER. Now, have you told us everything you can recall about Lee Oswald's ability to drive an automobile and operate an automobile, and your efforts to improve that driving capacity, and his efforts to obtain a driver's license? Is there anything at all now that you can recall that you have not told us?
Mrs. PAINE. There isn't anything at all.
Mr. JENNER. Was there any conversation any time with respect to Lee Oswald himself returning to Russia, as distinguished from Marina being returned to Russia?
Mrs. PAINE. There was no conversation of any sort nor any implication of that to me at any time.
Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion at any time on the subject of his desiring to obtain or having obtained a passport to Russia in the summer of 1963 or any other time?
Mrs. PAINE. There was no discussion of this at any time in my presence.
Mr. JENNER. And were you aware at any time prior to November 23, 1963, that he had obtained or had applied for a passport?
Mrs. PAINE. No; and I wasn't aware until later, in fact.
Mr. JENNER. Have you told us everything now on the subject of Lee Oswald's efforts with respect to Marina returning to Russia?
Mrs. PAINE. All that I recall.
Mr. JENNER. Have you told us everything that you can recall respecting President Kennedy and Mrs. Kennedy and any comments or observations on
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the part of either Lee Oswald or Marina Oswald with respect to the Kennedys?
Mrs. PAINE. I have related all my recollections.
Mr. JENNER. Have you related all your recollections respecting the attitude of either of them toward the Government of the United States?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I believe so.
Mr. JENNER. Is there anything you now recall in addition to what you have testified to with respect to the connection of either of them with or contacts, rather than connection--of either of them with the Communist Party in the United States?
Mrs. PAINE. I was not aware of any contact by either of them with the Communist Party in the United States.
Mr. JENNER. And the same question with respect to the Socialist Workers Party.
Mrs. PAINE. Nor was I aware of any such contact.
Mr. JENNER. Would you now give us your impression of Lee Oswald's personality? Was he a person who sought friends, was he a man who sought his own comfort, his own consolation?
I am just trying to illustrate what I am getting at. Was he a man who, to use the vernacular, was a loner? Do you know what I mean by that?
Mrs. PAINE. I have heard the word used a great deal.
Mr. JENNER. A man who preferred his own company, or at least appears to prefer his own company, and does not seek out others, does not seek to make friends, or even has an aversion to the making of friends, that he is reticent, retiring.
Mrs. PAINE. I think it was here this morning that I described him as a person whom I thought was fearful of actually making friends, and, therefore, reticent, who did keep to himself in fact a good deal.
But I think he did enjoy talking with other people at least some of the time. He did watch television a great deal of the total time that he was at my house.
And he would finish the evening meal earlier than the rest of the people at the table and leave to go back to the living room to read or watch television, and not just stay to converse. He would eat to be fed rather than as a social event.
Mr. JENNER. I see. Just to make sure we have the record clear on this-because it is of interest in other sections of this investigation--except for the one or two instances you have related, his habit was to remain in your home the entire weekend whenever he visited?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Were there any occasions in which he related or recounted, or she, of his having made any friendships in Dallas?
Mrs. PAINE. He never mentioned anyone he knew.
Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about what he did after hours, after work hours in Dallas?
Mrs. PAINE. Only the reference I have already related, of having been to the National Indignation Committee meeting.
Mr. JENNER. That was the only occasion? What was your impression of what he did, from all you heard and saw in your home when he was there, or any conversations you had with Marina, as to how he occupied his time after work hours, during the week when he remained in Dallas?
Mrs. PAINE. My impression, insofar as I have one, is that he spent evenings at his room, and he had mentioned, as I have said, that the room he had moved to had television privileges, and I, therefore, guessed that he made use of that opportunity.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have the impression, or what impression did you have on this score as to whether he was a man who had--who somewhat lacked confidence in himself, or might have been resentful that he was not generally accepted as a man of capacity?
Mrs. PAINE. I think he had a combination of a lack of confidence in himself and a mistaken, as I have said, overblown impression of himself, these operating at the same time.
I think he felt that he wanted more skilled work than he was doing at the
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School Book Depository. But the major impression I carry about his feeling of work at the School Book Depository was that it was income, and he was glad to have it.
I recall Marina's saying that Lee Oswald looked upon his brother Robert as a fool in that he was primarily interested in his home and family and that his interests in the world didn't really step beyond that. Marina commented then herself on this, and said she thought those were very legitimate interests.
Mr. JENNER. In his presence?
Mrs. PAINE. No; not in his presence. She was telling me what Lee had said when he was not there.
Mr. JENNER. What is your impression of Robert Oswald?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, as I have testified, I have very little impression of him, having only met him twice. I might add to that that he seems a nice guy, as far as I can see fairly regular, plain person. But that is my guess. I cannot say I have a clear impression of my own.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall an occasion when Marina had a conversation with Mrs. Gravitis?
Mrs. PAINE. By telephone. Oh, no; we went over one time, I think.
Mr. JENNER. And there was a conversation that went back and forth about their life in the United States up to that point?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; some of that conversation went back and forth faster than I could follow it.
Mr. JENNER. Well, do you recall an incident in the course of that conversation in which Mrs. Gravitis made a remark that anyone could get work in that locality, and that there was plenty of construction work going on, to which Marina responded that construction work was beneath the diginity of her husband?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I recall a conversation of this nature, or you have just recalled it to me, that Mrs. Gravitis thought that jobs were available if you were willing to do the work. I don't recall just what Marina's reply was. I do recall her saying that he found his work at the Minsk factory more physically heavy than he was easily able to handle, and the reference to--I don't recall her objection to the mention of construction, but if there was one I would guess it was more this nature, than indicating being above such things.
Mr. JENNER. That he might find heavy construction work or construction work generally physically difficult?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; this from my recollection of what she said about the Minsk job, not from my recollection of this conversation.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall during the course of that conversation some comments in which Marina implied that when they were in Fort Worth, at least, that, arising out of her experience there, that both of them rather did not want further contact with the people in Fort Worth because her husband Lee did not agree with them personality wise?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall anything of that nature.
Mr. JENNER. Do you ever recall her saying during the course of that conversation that her husband was an idealist?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall that, either. I have been trying to recall whether the name of Peter Gregory came up in any conversation with Marina. I have earlier testified today that it was my impression that I had not heard his name until the 22d of November. I have a vague impression that he was mentioned, or that this name was known to me. But it is very hard for me to get a hold of.
Mr. JENNER. To recall, you mean?
Mrs. PAINE. To recall; yes. At some point, and it might have been that afternoon of the 22d, or it might have been earlier, there was a conversation which has left me with the clear impression that Marina admired and thought highly of Peter Gregory.
Mr. JENNER. Peter is the father or the son?
Mrs. PAINE. Peter is the father. But, as I say, my recollection is vague on this, and I don't know when that conversation might have taken place.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever say to your sister that you were of the opinion that Lee Oswald was a Communist?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall.
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Mr. JENNER. Does the group known as the Women's International League for Peace and Democracy--is that a group with which you are familiar?
Mrs. PAINE. I have heard the name. I can't recall whether I have ever joined or not. I wouldn't think so. But I just don't recall.
Mr. JENNER. Your best recollection at the moment is that you cannot recall having had any contact with that group?
Mrs. PAINE. Except possibly some literature.
Mr. JENNER. Between the 1st and the 5th of November 1963, did you make any effort to obtain the address of Lee Oswald in Dallas?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I did not.
Mr. JENNER. How tall are you, Mrs. Paine?
Mrs. PAINE. Around 5 feet 10 inches.
Mr. JENNER. I will ask you this general question. I take it, Mrs. Paine, that your study of and interest in the Russian language did not emanate in any degree from any interest on your part in associating yourself with any activities which were in turn to be associated with Russia and the Communist Party or Communist interests.
Mrs. PAINE. It certainly did not stem from any such interest.
Mr. JENNER. And your continued pursuit of it does not stem from any such motivation?
Mrs. PAINE. No; it does not.
Mr. JENNER. I think I have asked you this, but I want to make sure it is in the record. You are a pacificist?
Mrs. PAINE. I consider myself such. I don't like to consider myself as rigidly adhering to any particular doctrine. I believe in appraising a situation and determining my own action in terms of that particular situation, and not making a rigid or blanket philosophy dictate my behavior.
Mr. JENNER. But you are opposed to violence?
Mrs. PAINE. I am.
Mr. JENNER. Whether it be violence for the overthrow of a government, or a chink in the government, or physical violence of any kind or character?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I consider it to be--violence to be--always harmful to the values I believe in, and just reserve the right to, as I have said, appraise each situation in the light of that initial belief.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, you have read a number of newspaper articles and also various magazine articles dealing with the tragedy of November 22, 1963, and the Oswalds, and even of yourself. Do you have an overall reaction of any kind to those articles and newspaper stories, particularly with respect to their accuracy, you knowing what you do as to what the actual facts were and are?
Mrs. PAINE. There are several things I might say in reply to that.
First, I have thought about someday teaching a course in high school on the subject of newspaper and magazine accuracy, using this particular story of the assassination of President Kennedy as source material.
I have been impressed with both the inaccuracy of things I have read and my inability to judge inaccuracy when they do not-- when the story does not refer to things I personally know about.
On the whole, my feeling has been that the press has been pretty accurate in reporting what I have said. I have by no means seen all of what was reported of what I said.
I might say in this connection, but in a slightly different department, that you will see a large stack of newspapers on a table in my house when you come. They represent the newspapers I have not yet----
Mr. JENNER. Perused?
Mrs. PAINE. More than that--not yet found courage enough to read. They are the newspapers of late November and of December. And while I have tried to read them, I usually end crying, and so I have not gotten very far.
I might say, just to be perfectly clear, that my problem is my grief over the death of the President. That is what brings me to tears---much more than my own personal touch with the story--although this just makes more poignant my grief.
Mr. JENNER. I will read some listings that appeared in Lee Oswald's memorandum or diary or address book, and ask you whether they were mentioned during the period of your acquaintance with the Oswalds, or whether you might
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have heard about them otherwise. The Russ.-Amer. Citizenship Club, 2730 Snyder Avenue.
Mrs. PAINE. I have never heard of the organization, and I am not certain where such a street might be.
Mr. JENNER. Well, I am not, either. I am just reading all of the entry there is in the diary.
Mrs. PAINE. And I am to simply say whether it rings any bell?
Mr. JENNER. That is right. Russ. Language School, 1212 Spruce.
Mrs. PAINE. I know the Spruce Street is in Philadelphia, but, otherwise, that rings no bell.
Mr. JENNER. Russian Lan., and then Trn.--216 South 20th.
Mrs. PAINE. I don't know.
Mr. JENNER. I assume that means Russian language-----
Mrs. PAINE. Training?
Mr. JENNER. Trn.
Mrs. PAINE. Probably. It is not familiar to me.
Mr. JENNER. Next, Russ. Groth. Hos. Organ.
Mrs. PAINE. Could it be hospitality?
Mr. JENNER. It might be. I will read it in full. Russ. Groth.-Hosp. Organ, 1733 Spring.
Mrs. PAINE. This organization is not familiar to me.
May I say each street appears in Philadelphia. In other words, Snyder, I recall as being in Philadelphia, and Spring is.
Mr. JENNER. This is Spruce.
Mrs. PAINE. Spruce was the first one I recall. The last you mentioned was Spring; is that right?
Mr. JENNER. Yes. None of those entries awakens anything in your mind in any respect?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. During these weekends in the fall period, when Marina was living with you, I take it your husband visited at your home?
Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Did he visit on other than weekends?
Mrs. PAINE. Occasionally. It seems to me he often came on Tuesday evening. And then he came on Friday, and sometimes on Sunday afternoon, as I have testified.
Mr. JENNER. He would visit Friday evening and then return to his quarters. And he would visit reasonably often on Sunday and return to his quarters?
Mrs. PAINE. Every now and then on Sunday, I would say. And then sometimes during the week on a Tuesday or Wednesday.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, if you had become aware prior to November 22 of the fact, if it be a fact, that there was a rifle in the blanket wrapped package on the floor of your garage, what do you think now you would have done?
Mrs. PAINE. I can say certainly I would not have wanted it there.
And that my pacifist feelings would have entered into my consideration of the subject. I cannot say certainly what I would have done, of course. And, as I have described myself and my beliefs, I like to consider the situation that I am in and react according to that situation, rather than to have doctrine or rigid belief.
I can certainly say this. I would have asked that it be entirely out of reach of children or out of sight of children.
Mr. JENNER. Well, when the FBI agent interviewed you on November 1, had you known of the existence of the rifle on the floor of the garage, what is your present thought as to what you might have done with respect to advising the FBI of its existence?
Mrs. PAINE. I would seriously doubt that I would have considered it of significance to the FBI. I know that a great many people in Texas go deer hunting. As one of the FBI agents said to me after the assassination, he surmised that every other house in the street had a rifle, a deer rifle.
I would have simply considered this was offensive to me, but of no consequence or interest to them.
Mr. JENNER. You see what I am getting at. Would the existence of your
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knowledge of the rifle on the floor of your garage, connected with Lee Oswald's history as you knew it up to that point, and some of the suspicions that you voiced in your testimony with respect to Lee Oswald, have led you to be apprehensive out of the ordinary as to the existence of that rifle on the floor of your garage?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't believe I would have assumed that this rifle was for any other purpose than deer hunting.
Mr. JENNER. Did the FBI, any of the FBI agents inquire of you prior to November 22, 1963, as to whether there were any firearms in and about your home?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Did any FBI agent inquire of you as to whether you thought there was any suspicious--anything suspicious about Lee Harvey Oswald that caused you any concern with respect to the safety of the Government of the United States or any individual in it, in that Government?
Mrs. PAINE. No; they made no such inquiry.
Mr. JENNER. And I would repeat this line of questioning with respect to Marina as well as Lee. Would your answers be the same if I did?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; they would be the same.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, Marina testified of her impression that when Lee returned to Dallas, and then to your home on the 4th of October 1963, that he--when he came to your home he had a valise or a suitcase.
Mrs. PAINE. Marina testified, did you say?
Mr. JENNER. Yes. What impression do you have in that respect I realize that when you reached your home he was out on the front lawn.
Mrs. PAINE. On what day?
Mr. JENNER. Fourth of October 1963.
Mrs. PAINE. No. He arrived at my home before I did on the 4th of October.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; I said that.
Mrs. PAINE. But it was on the 21st of November that he was out on the front lawn when I arrived. My recollection is that----
Mr. JENNER. Please. I am referring back to the time that he came from Dallas initially. That was the 4th of October.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have any recollection as to any luggage of any kind or character that he might or did bring with him on that occasion?
Mrs. PAINE. None.
Mr. JENNER. None whatsoever. Did you ever see him take any luggage out of your home anytime after he had come to your home on October 4?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. And, as I believe I have testified, it is my impression that I took him to the bus station in Irving on the 7th of October, and then he carried both shirts over his arm freshly ironed, and this green zipper bag. But this is my impression.
Mr. JENNER. In any event, at no time from October--including October 4 to November 22 did you see him have in his possession any luggage other than the green zipper bag?
Mrs. PAINE. That he was carrying?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. My statement is correct?
Mrs. PAINE. I have no recollection of any other kind of luggage being used by him.
Mr. JENNER. Did the subject of abortion--was the subject of abortion ever one discussed between you and Marina?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. And I think I have so testified. When--part of our first meeting, as we talked in the park, or close to the first meeting, after having left her apartment in March, and walked to the park--she told me that she was going to have a baby, and she said that she didn't believe in abortion.
Mr. JENNER. Is that when the discussion occurred on birth control?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And was that discussion on birth control directed towards her avoiding a larger family?
Mrs. PAINE. Future pregnancies; yes.
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Mr. JENNER. It was devoted solely to that?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Representative Ford has left with me some questions. I think probably I might have covered them all.
Would you give us, please, your views with respect to what you understand to be the Russian system or philosophy--that is, I am not seeking your views as to what it is, but as to either your sympathy or empathy or aversion to it.
Mrs. PAINE I am of the opinion that--saying the Russian system is a rather larger statement than saying the Communist system. But it may be that the question was intended to speak about the Communists, or governmental system.
Mr. JENNER. I think that probably is the thrust of Representative Ford's inquiry.
Mrs. PAINE. Well, as I have already testified, I dislike deception in any form. I might go on to say that I think the people of Russia on the whole have very little choice about their leaders at elections or----
Mr. JENNER. It is the antithesis of democracy?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is certainly a dictatorship.
Mr. JENNER. And that is abhorent to you?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is.
Mr. JENNER. I take it, then, far from having any sympathy with or admiration for communism or what we might call the Russian system or philosophy, you have an aversion?
Mrs. PAINE. I have an aversion.
Mr. JENNER. Have you ever studied Karl Marx?
Mrs. PAINE. No; not in the sense of studied. I think one history course in college included a few readings from Karl Marx.
Mr. JENNER. Your readings of Karl Marx's writings have been confined to your work at Antioch College as a student?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. And they were very brief.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever read the Manifesto?
Mrs. PAINE. The Communist Manifesto?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. PAINE. That was part of the same course.
Mr. JENNER. But there, again, your studying of it or reading of it was limited to the college course?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. And you did not pursue it thereafter?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I did not.
Mr. JENNER. And if I asked you the same question with respect to Das Capital would your answers be the same?
Mrs. PAINE. I have seen the size of the book, and I certainly would not want to read it.
Mr. JENNER. In any event, you have not read it?
Mrs. PAINE. I have not read it.
Mr. JENNER. Even in connection with a college course?
Mrs. PAINE. Even in connection with a college course. I think I would have fudged on that assignment, had it been assigned.
Mr. JENNER. I gather from your testimony you certainly do not consider yourself a Communist.
Mrs. PAINE. I certainly do not.
Mr. JENNER. And quite the contrary.
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Tell us what your activities--you are a member of the American Civil Liberties Union?
Mrs. PAINE. I am.
Mr. JENNER. What have been your activities in connection with that organization?
Mrs. PAINE. Primarily to send in my membership fee each year. I have been a member for some years prior--that is to say, going back to the time prior to my marriage. I have recently, perhaps a year ago, became on the membership committee for the local chapter in Dallas. That chapter, I might say, only just opened a year and a half ago.
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Mr. JENNER. And have you, as part of those activities, sought to enlist others to become members of the American Civil Liberties Union?
Mrs. PAINE. I have talked to perhaps half a dozen people, to encourage them; yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever discuss this organization with Lee Oswald?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did.
Mr. JENNER. Have you told us in your testimony up to this moment all of your discussion of that organization with Lee Oswald?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I have. I call your attention to my testimony of a conversation with Lee over the phone saying that I thought that if he was losing his job because of his political views, that this would be of interest to the Civil Liberties Union.
Mr. JENNER. Did any of those discussions embrace the question of what possible help this organization might be to him if he got into trouble eventually?
Mrs. PAINE. My judgment is that he took that statement I have just referred to as an implication of the possibility of help from that organization to him personally.
Mr. JENNER. With reference particularly to the possible need at any time for counsel?
Mrs. PAINE. He may have assumed such a thing. My understanding of the Civil Liberties Union is that they are not interested in just defending people, but in defending rights or entering a case where there is doubt that a person's civil liberties have been properly upheld.
Mr. JENNER. Or might be?
Mrs. PAINE. Or there might be such doubt; yes. I wouldn't know whether Lee understood that.
Mr. JENNER. At least your discussions with him do not enable you to proceed to the point at which to enable you to voice any opinions in this area or subject than you have now given?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Were you aware of the name John Abt before you received the telephone call you testified about from Lee Oswald?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I had not heard that name.
Mr. JENNER. And, therefore, you never suggested it to Lee Oswald?
Mrs. PAINE. No; that is right.
Mr. JENNER. You are a modest person, but could you indicate for us how fluent you are or you think you are in the command of the Russian language? Please don't be too modest about it. Be as objective as you can.
Mrs. PAINE. It is a very hard thing to describe, but I might start by saying that I have perhaps an 8- or 10 -year-old's vocabulary.
Mr. JENNER. You are using as an example the vocabulary of a native Russian citizen of the age of 8 to 10 years old?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I do not have that much fluency. If the subject I am talking about is something in which I have developed a vocabulary--and these subjects are mostly in terms of home or the things that one does--then I can proceed with an ability to convey my meaning. If it gets into anything technical which would use terms such as insurance or taxes, I have to look it up. I approach any writing of a letter with some dread, as it is difficult for me. I might say in this connection that I presume to teach Russian, not because I am fluent, but because I think my pronunciation is particularly good for a nonnative, and because I have gone the route of the beginning student and know how to do this, and have thought a great deal about what helps a person to learn. I would not presume to teach English to people who didn't know the language, though I am fluent in it.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; you are.
You used a 10-year-old comparison as to vocabulary. What would you say as to your Russian grammar--that is, command of the technicalities of grammar? Would it be superior to an 8- to 10-year-old?
Mrs. PAINE. My vocabulary----
Mr. JENNER. I mean sentence construction.
Mrs. PAINE. An 8- to 10-year-old would do better than I do in actual conversation, but would not be able to give you the names of parts of speech as I can
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in Russian. I have a book knowledge of grammar in Russian. But this doesn't prevent me from making more mistakes than an 8- or 10- year-old would make if he grew up native to the language--many more mistakes.
Mr. JENNER. Would you say that is true of your writing--that is, when you compose a letter?
Mrs. PAINE. My writing would be with fewer mistakes, because I can think about it more in putting it down, but still very many mistakes occur in it.
Mr. JENNER. Would you say your fluency in the command of the Russian language as of the time you first met the Oswalds in February of 1963 was comparably about the same as your fluency with that language now?
Mrs. PAINE. I have improved, particularly over the period of 2 months that Marina was at my home--I have improved my ability to converse, and certainly increased my vocabulary very markedly.
Mr. JENNER. Your experience with Marina has served to improve your command both of vocabulary and of the use of the language generally?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. How fluent was--I will put it this way. How would you judge the command of Lee Oswald of the Russian language, both as to vocabulary and as to sentence construction, and grammar generally?
Mrs. PAINE. He had a larger vocabulary than I do in Russian. He had less understanding of the grammar, and considerably less regard for it.
Mr. JENNER. He was not sensitive to the delicacies of the language?
Mrs. PAINE. He didn't seem to care whether he was speaking it right or not, whereas I care a great deal. He did read--he certainly subscribed to the things that I have described. And my impression is that he did read them some, and that he did not shy away from reading a Russian newspaper as I do. I find newspaper reading still very hard, and magazines, also. I have to do a great deal of dictionary work to get the full meaning of a magazine or newspaper article.
Mr. JENNER. Do you think that is because you are a sensitive perfectionist as far as the language is concerned? You wish to read it and use it in its finest sense, and you avoid what I would call, for example, pigeon English use of Russian?
Mrs. PAINE. I would rather communicate than avoid pigeon use, and I have to use broken Russian to communicate. In reading, I would say what I have described as my reading--it is just that I don't have a very large vocabulary--not that I want to understand every nuance of the words that I am reading. I just can't get the meaning reading it off.
Mr. JENNER. Yet you found that Lee was inclined to plunge ahead, as near as you can tell?
Mrs. PAINE. I gathered so.
Mr. JENNER. Did Marina ever say anything about Lee Oswald's command of the Russian language, or his use of it?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; she did. Let me preface my answer by saying she did not correct him, or at least not very often. She commented at one time in the fall, after Lee came to the house on a Friday, that his Russian was getting worse, whereas mine was getting better, so that I spoke better than he did now. It embarrassed me, is the only reason I recall her saying it.
Mr. JENNER. Did she say it in his presence?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; she did. That is why I was embarrassed. I did not know whether it was correct or not, and she had intended it as a compliment, but it was at the same time unkind to him. So this is why I was embarrassed.
Mr. JENNER. Tell us everything you learned about Oswald's sojourn in Russia, first from direct statements you heard him make and this will be in addition to anything you have already told us.
Mrs. PAINE. I can't recall anything that hasn't appeared in my testimony. And there is very little that has appeared in my testimony.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; I appreciate that. Did he ever say anything about--I think you did testify a little bit about this yesterday--his efforts to obtain a passport to return to the United States, and his difficulties in that connection?
Mrs. PAINE. My recollection is that it was she who told me of this.
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Mr. JENNER. And she rather than Lee?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Calling upon your recollection, is there anything you have not testified to on that particular subject----
Mrs. PAINE. Of things he had told me himself?
Mr. JENNER. That is right. That emanated from him.
Mrs. PAINE. I don't think of anything.
Mr. JENNER. Now, I will then ask you the same question as to Marina--that is, tell us everything else you can think of that you have not already told us that you learned about Lee Oswald's sojourn in Russia, that you might have learned through Marina.
Mrs. PAINE. Well, I did learn that they applied for a passport for all of them, that it was a long time coming--no particular length of time mentioned. That they went to Moscow first and then by train, I gather, to Holland, and then by boat to New York City, stayed there a day or less, and came directly to Fort Worth. She mentioned to me, as I testified, that they had borrowed money for the payment of their steamship passage.
Mr. JENNER. Borrowed it from the State Department?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall that she mentioned from whom. Just that they had borrowed it and paid it back. She said that Lee had an apartment by himself in Minsk, which was unusual.
Mr. JENNER. Did she say it was unusual?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; she said it was unusual. That, in fact, it caused a little bit of resentment from those who didn't have so much privacy. And I gather that she moved into it after they were married.
Mr. JENNER. That is a fact, at least according to her testimony.
Mrs. PAINE. I have spoken to some extent of her aunt and uncle that she lived there. Is this relevant to your question?
Mr. JENNER. Yes; it is relevant to Representative Ford's question, which I ghosted to you.
Mrs. PAINE. She liked her aunt very much, and commented to me several times that it was interesting that this particular aunt was no blood relation at all--it was the uncle that was the blood relation. But that this aunt was her favorite aunt. And they had many good conversations. Marina would go out on a date, and then come back and tell the aunt all about it. Marina commented that the aunt did not work, which she also said was unusual.
Mr. JENNER. Unusual in what sense?
Mrs. PAINE. That most women in Russia both did work and had to financially.
Mr. JENNER. Was that--did you infer from that that her uncle had a position in Russia that enabled him to supply funds so that his wife did not have to work?
Mrs. PAINE. That was the impression it left me with, yes.
She also said of her aunt that her aunt kept her floors spotless, and her whole house beautiful all the time. You want all the recollections I have of their time in Minsk?
Mr. JENNER. Anywhere in Russia.
Mrs. PAINE. Including her family background?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. PAINE. Well, I knew because I had filled out forms for her at Parkland Hospital that she was born at Archangel. From conversation with her, I know she was born 2 months early.
Mr. JENNER. She was a 7-month baby, somewhat premature?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; and her mother had bundled her up in great swaths of clothing to bring her from Archangel to Leningrad, when she was a tiny baby. I learned that the grandmother had been with her, I judge later in Archangel, when they lived there again, and was part of her upbringing. Her mother had some medical job--I never did understand.
Mr. JENNER. You mean job in the sense of position?
Mrs. PAINE. Position. I never did understand how responsible this was--whether she was a medical doctor or what her position was. Marina described the time when her mother died of cancer, and that also her grandmother died before the year was out of cancer, also.
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Mr. JENNER. Did she ever speak of her father?
Mrs. PAINE. She said that her father had died when she was very tiny, that she did not know her father, that she was raised by her mother and stepfather, and she did not know until it came out from something a neighbor let drop, when she was already in her early teens, that this man she thought to be her father was not in fact her father but her stepfather. This came as a shock to her. I knew that she had a younger brother and sister, Tatyana, I think, Tanya would be the diminutive. I don't recall her brother's name. It is my impression that she liked Leningrad, was proud of it.
Mr. JENNER. Did she ever say why she went from Leningrad to Minsk, or the circumstances under which--which surrounded her going from Leningrad to Minsk?
Mrs. PAINE. No; she never did. She did say that some people commented to her that it was strange to be leaving Leningrad, because there were many people who wanted to work in Leningrad who evidently didn't have the necessary priority or permission to get into the city to work there. She having been brought up there had the right to live there and work there. But this was the first I knew that you could not just move from one city to another in Russia if you wanted to look for work.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have a discussion with her from time to time about the fact that you could move about in Russia only by permission.
Mrs. PAINE. Well, she mentioned--and I think I have said so---that you don't go to a different city in Russia without its being known. You have to register immediately upon coming to the city, show all your papers, and then the government assigns you your quarters---hotel or apartment or any room. You cannot get a place to spend the night if you don't sign in. Which is certainly a far cry from our situation in this country.
Mr. JENNER. Did she indicate any reaction on her part to the difference--that difference in America as compared with Russia?
Mrs. PAINE. It was not overtly stated. She did make clear to me that she thought the consumer goods here were superior to those in Russia. She said that very likely this was in part due to the fact that people are not sure of their jobs. In Russia you can do a bad job and still remain employed; whereas here she said a person had to produce good work or they didn't stay on the job.
Mr. JENNER. This was a comment on her part on the difference in the system? Russia from that in the United States?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did she indicate any reaction to that?
Mrs. PAINE. She thought the system here produced much better goods, and she was pleased with that. She also commented that things were much more available in this country than they were in Russia. She was impressed, for instance, with the fact that my neighbor offered to loan things for the baby, and my friend Mrs. Craig offered to loan things for the baby. She said that in Russia people were not so sure that they could replace things that they had loaned or given away. You could not go to the store when you needed to have baby clothing and necessarily find it there. So there was much less--for that reason, and others--there was much less loaning and sharing of things than she found here.
Mr. JENNER. Did she say anything about the period when Lee was hospitalized in Russia?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I don't recall it.
Mr. JENNER. And her visiting him every day?
Mrs. PAINE. I have no clear recollection. I do, of course, recall her description of her own pregnancy, and the birth of June in the Minsk hospital. That Lee was in the hospital rings very faintly. I cannot think of anything he was in there for. I have completely forgotten any reference to it--I am not sure I remember now.
Mr. JENNER. Have we exhausted you on that subject?
Mrs. PAINE. I am exhausted.
Mr. JENNER. What is your reaction on the subject of Marina's reaction in turn to her husband? Did she love him? What was her opinion of him?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, I think it has already appeared pretty thoroughly in my
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testimony that she both asked herself did she love him and did he love her, and proceeded with the feeling that she had committed herself to this, and would try to do her best for the marriage not without occasionally wondering whether this marriage would last, or should.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have any opinion or reaction on this subject--as to whether she had perhaps at times contributed to some degree or had been at fault to some degree in provoking what outbursts there were on Lee's part and his sometimes crudeness and abruptness with respect to her?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, as I think I have testified, she didn't try, or certainly did not try all the time, to avoid a confrontation or an argument or disagreement. But she did argue with him and uphold her own views, rather more forcefully, at least in her skill in the language, than Lee, on some occasions. I would say that if he had been a more relaxed and easy-going person, somebody that was not so touchy, that her behavior would not have been any difficulty to the marriage. Rather it was a healthy thing.
Mr. JENNER. There is an opinion at large, at least among some of us here in the United States who have pursued Russian literature and published works on the Russian people and the Russian character, that there is a tendency or an element on the part of the Russian to exaggerate and to present the bizzare. Do you have any feeling or opinion on that subject with respect to Marina Oswald?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I do think that there is such a thing as a personality formed by the Russian background, and it is a different influence, but also operating, the Soviet system. But it is hard for me to describe what that is. And I would not have included the statement you just made of attempting to exaggerate or bizzare--is that the way you put it?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. PAINE. Rather I would say it is a moodiness and a quality of enigma. Not the open-faced, glad-handed Texan or frontier American, but much more subtle. And I also do think that there is much more tendencies to---among Russian emigres to suspect underlying motives, and things going on beneath the surface that are not evident on the face of the situation, a tendency among them more than among Americans.
Mr. JENNER. Do you find in Marina any of these tendencies you now relate?
Mrs. PAINE. I find her moody. I would say she was contrary to this that I have described, of some Russian people, of a quality of suspecting things going on under the surface.
I found this quality rather in the head of the Russian school at Middlebury, who picked up my tape recorder and took it to his office one time when I had left it in the hall. He evidently thought I had bad use intended for it.
Mr. JENNER Would you say that--give us your opinion as to Marina's sense of the truth, of telling the truth, having a feeling of the truth?
Mrs. PAINE. That is difficult to say, because what questions I have about her telling of the truth have all arisen since I was with her personally.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; I wish your opinion now, as of this time.
Mrs. PAINE You wish my opinion now?
It is my opinion that this sense of privacy that I have described interferes with her being absolutely frank about the situation, and that she may, because of this lack of frankness, describe a situation in a way that is misleading, not directly false---but misleads the hearer. And this, I would say, not always in conscious design, but some of it happening quite without preplanned intent. I conclude that from the fact that I think she must have known that Lee had been to Mexico, judging from the materials I have already described were picked up by Mr. Odum and myself from the dresser drawer.
Mr. JENNER. From that, you conclude what?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, that she was willing to mislead by implication. And I would judge that she knew about the application for a passport, and this was never mentioned. All the times that she mentioned that she might have to go back to Russia, the implication was that she alone was going back. And this doesn't appear to have been fully the case.
Mr. JENNER. What leads you to say that--it wasn't fully the case in what sense?
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Mrs. PAINE. Well, in the sense that Lee had at least applied for a passport to get him to Russia.
Mr. JENNER. You are rationalizing from the fact that you know now that he applied for a passport?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. You conclude from that that she must have known of that application and the fact that he received it?
Mrs. PAINE. And, of course, that is rationalization.
Mr. JENNER. That is the only basis on which you make that statement? That is what I am getting at.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I think that is all.
Mr. JENNER. What is your opinion as to whether Marina Oswald would tell the truth and the whole truth under oath in response to questions put to her?
Mrs. PAINE. I would expect that she would make a dedicated attempt to tell the truth. Just looking at the amount of time I have testified, as opposed to the amount of time she testified, relative to the amount of things she knows and the amount of material that I have that is of any use to the Commission, she could not have yet told the whole truth, just in terms of time.
Mr. JENNER. Well, that may be affected---of course, you must understand--by the questions put to her and the subjects that were opened on her examination.
Mrs. PAINE. Right.
Mr. JENNER. But subject to that, it is your feeling that she there is a-----
Mrs. PAINE. Subject to that, I really cannot answer. I don't know what her attitude is towards her situation, which is a rather remarkable one in this case.
I would guess that it is helpful to her telling the whole truth that Lee is now dead. I might say I am affected in that judgment by having been present when she could not positively identify her husband's--what was thought to be his rifle at the police station, whereas I read--and perhaps it is not so--but I read that she positively identified it here at the Commission.
Mr. JENNER. But you were present when she, in your presence, was unable to identify with reasonable certainty that the weapon exhibited to her was her husband's rifle?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. And you attribute that largely to the fact that his now being deceased has in her mind released her, so that she may without fear of implicating him, were he alive, to speak fully her opinions on subjects such as that?
Mrs. PAINE. That would be my opinion.
Mr. JENNER. I See. Did she ever express any fear of Lee Oswald?
Mrs. PAINE. No; she never did.
Mr. JENNER. Did she ever express to you any fear that he might do something, and I use the vernacular again, crazy?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER I think we have covered this, but to be sure, did she ever mention to you that Lee had anything to do with the Walker incident?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. That she suspected it?
Mrs. PAINE. Absolutely nothing.
Mr. JENNER Now, since you are now aware of what has come out with respect to that, does that also affect your opinion as to her sense of truth or sense of frankness?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, it affects my opinion on how close we were as friends. I never asked her to be frank or discuss such a subject, of course, because I would not have known to bring it up. Not telling me about something is quite different from telling me something that is misleading to the whole truth of the situation.
Mr. JENNER. In other words, are you seeking to imply that her failure to mention the General Walker incident and Lee Harvey Oswald part in it, if he had any part, that that was understandable to you--that would be understandable as of that time, having in mind your relations with her?
Mrs. PAINE. No; it is not understandable to me. I feel it is only explained--the only explanation I can find, when I look for one, is that she did not feel terribly close to me, or did not know just what I would do with such information. She may well have suspected that I would feel it necessary to take immediate
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action, and I would have felt that necessary if I had known this. She may have felt that Lee would not make such an attempt again, and that there was therefore no need to bring it up. I don't know whether your accounts of what the FBI has put down of their conversations with me include one meeting with Bardwell Odum, right after the newspapers had indicated something of a shot at Walker, before there was any corroborative details, such as the content of a note.
I was very depressed by the feeling that here--not to me, but to someone, this man had shown that he was violent and dangerous, and the information had been so close to me and not available to me--and I deeply regretted that I had had no warning of this quality in him.
And I further went on to say that I felt that it was a moral failing on her part not to speak to someone about this, because I thought she would surely realize that this was an irrational and extremely dangerous act on his part--that he needed help and/or confinement.
Mr. JENNER. What is your personal attitude towards the Castro regime?
Mrs. PAINE. I have very few opinions about it. I suspect that the press is correct, that it is used as a jumping off ground for people, for Communist deputies going to Central American countries, trying to stir up trouble. That I object to strenuously. That the people of Cuba had Castro as a leader is not of any particular offense to me. I do think that he has rather more popular support than his predecessor.
Mr. JENNER. Batista?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes---which is not saying a great deal.
Mr. JENNER. Well, I think Representative Ford might have had more in mind as to whether you share or do not share or have an aversion to what you understand to be the Castro regime.
Mrs. PAINE. I think the regime is clearly dictatorial, that it seeks to perpetuate itself, and to do so at all costs; and that I certainly object to.
Mr. JENNER. Now, do you consider the Castro regime as you understand it, that it is liberal or reactionary?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't know as I can put a term on it.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have any thoughts and assumptions on your part as to what Lee Oswald was doing after Marina returned with you from New Orleans? You have already testified that you thought from what he said about seeking employment in Houston and Philadelphia that he was engaged in that immediately following period in attempting to secure employment in Houston.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Is that the extent of your impression as to that period--that is the period from the time you left on the 23d of September and the time he showed up without advance notice on the 4th of October?
Mrs. PAINE. It was my impression that he had been looking for work.
Mr. JENNER. And you had no other impression?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. During the period that Marina lived with you, did you ordinarily arise at an early or a late hour? When did you ordinarily arise?
Mrs. PAINE. Are you asking did I arise earlier than she?
Mr. JENNER. No. I am asking when you did. Then I will ask you when she did.
Mrs. PAINE. I usually got up around 7:30 or 8.
Mr. JENNER. When did she arise?
Mrs. PAINE. A similar time. When the babies permitted, she would sleep a little later. She changed her schedule to fit ours rather more than her schedule would have been if it had been just the way she had done in her own apartment.
Mr. JENNER. In her own apartment you think she would have arisen later or earlier?
Mrs. PAINE. She would have arisen later and let the baby, June, stay up later, and therefore be able to sleep later in the morning.
Mr. JENNER. I see.
Mrs. PAINE. But while she was at my home, she endeavored to fit herself into the sleeping schedule of myself and my children.
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Mr. JENNER. Have you told us about your knowledge of any and all correspondence that she received at your home?
Mrs. PAINE. I think I have. The only thing that I recall is that she got a letter from a girl friend, Galya.
Mr. JENNER. Did she ever show you any correspondence she received?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. This has been covered. I don't know if it has been covered in the thrust that Representative Ford has in mind.
Do you believe that Marina had any Communist sympathies when she reached this country, and if so, what is your belief as to whether she retained them after living in this country?
Mrs. PAINE. I do not believe she had Communist leanings when she arrived.
Mr. JENNER. And is it your belief that she is of the same viewpoint now?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Have you now told us all of the activities about which you know anything in which Lee Oswald and you or you and your husband or Lee and Marina and you and your husband took part?
Mrs. PAINE. Let's see if I understand you. All the activities in which my husband and/or I were with any of the Oswalds?
Mr. JENNER. Either of the Oswalds, together or separately.
Mrs. PAINE. To the best of my recollection, you have a full account.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever attend any meetings together--that is either you and Lee on the one hand, or you and Marina on the other, or you and Marina and Lee together?
Mrs. PAINE. There is just the one of my husband and Lee at the Civil Liberties Union meeting.
Mr. JENNER. Have you named all of the friends and associates or even acquaintances that you had in common with the Oswalds or either of them?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you really have any common interest?
Mrs. PAINE. With Marina?
Mr. JENNER. Well, any common interest with Lee did you have any?
Mrs. PAINE. No; not really.
Mr. JENNER. And any activities with him?
Mrs. PAINE. Car driving teaching.
Mr. JENNER. That's about all?
Mr. PAINE. That's it.
Mr. JENNER. And the same question as to Marina. Have you told us everything--I will put it this way. Have you told us everything about any common or concerted action or interest between yourself on the one hand and Marina on the other?
Mrs. PAINE. Marina and I of course had a great deal of common interest in children. I think she read to me from a book on child care in Russian that she had--or perhaps I have not said that. Do you recall?
Mr. JENNER. Well, I am not too sure. I think you have intimated it.
Mrs. PAINE. And we discussed child raising, care, diet, all the things that come up in connection with children.
Mr. JENNER. But you had no common--you had no community activities with either of them, is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE. No---that's right. You mean which took us to a group with other people?
Mr. JENNER. Other groups, civic activities generally.
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Or women's clubs or meetings of that character. She occasionally accompanied you on your visits to Mrs. Roberts, I assume.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. But there was no plan or direction to those activities.
Mrs. PAINE. None.
Mr. JENNER. Have you told us everything you know about Lee's income and sources of funds?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I have.
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Mr. JENNER. Do you recall an occasion when you had a conversation with Marina--it would have to be on the 23d of November--about the blanket package and the gun in the package?
Mrs. PAINE. On the 23d?
Mr. JENNER. Did you have one--I will put it this way. Did you have any conversation with her on that subject, other than the one you have related that occurred in the presence of the police officers in your home on the 22d of November, 1963?
Mrs. PAINE. None that I recall; nor the day following, either.
Mr. JENNER. Is that the only time that you ever had a conversation with Marina dealing with the presence of a firearm in your home?
Mrs. PAINE. That is the only thing I recall.
Mr. JENNER. Or Lee Oswald's ownership of a firearm?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; the only time.
Mr. JENNER. Or use of it.
I take it from the answers you have given to my long line of questioning that you never detected or saw Lee Oswald doing any dry firing or dry sighting of a rifle in Irving, Tex. in or about your home or premises.
Mrs. PAINE. No; I did not.
Mr. JENNER. That concludes the questions Representative Ford had in mind.
I will look through the tag end of these notes and I think we have reached the end.
You have no diary of events during the time of your contact with the Oswalds other than the calendar diary which we have now introduced in evidence.
Mrs. PAINE. None.
Mr. JENNER. And you never kept any?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. In connection with his seeking work in Houston, Tex. in the course of that conversation with you girls in New Orleans, when he made the statements you have related about seeking employment in Houston, was there anything said by him as to having any acquaintances or friends in Houston?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I believe I have already answered that--that he said he had a friend in Houston, and that I was not sure whether that was so or not.
Mr. JENNER. He did not identify the friend?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I was curious, though, about that.
Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about having any connections or friends in Philadelphia?
Mrs. PAINE. No; he did not.
Mr. JENNER. But he did mention the possibility of seeking employment in Philadelphia.
Mrs. PAINE. He mentioned Philadelphia as a possibility that he might go and look.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall a long-distance call received by Marina while she was at your home?
Mrs. PAINE. There was a call which I have related from Lee to her from New Orleans on May 9th.
Mr. JENNER. But you know of no other?
Mrs. PAINE. I cannot think of any other.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever hear anything by way of discussion or otherwise by Marina or Lee of the possibility of his having been tendered or at least suggested to him a job at Trans-Texas, as a cargo handler at $310 per month?
Mrs. PAINE. No; in Dallas?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. PAINE. I do not recall that $310 a month?
Mr. JENNER. Yes. This was right at the time that he obtained employment at the Texas School Book Depository.
Mrs. PAINE. And he was definitely offered such a job?
Mr. JENNER. Well, I won't say it was offered--that he might have been able to secure a job through the Texas Employment Commission as a cargo handler at $310 per month.
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Mrs. PAINE. I do recall some reference of that sort, which fell through--that there was not that possibility.
Mr. JENNER. Tell us what you know about that. Did you hear of it at the time?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes
Mr. JENNER. Now, would you please relate that to me?
Mrs. PAINE. I recall some reference to----
Mr. JENNER. How did it come about?
Mrs. PAINE. From Lee, as I recall.
Mr. JENNER. And was it at the time, or just right----
Mrs. PAINE. It was at the time, while he was yet unemployed.
Mr. JENNER. And about the time he obtained employment at the Texas School Book Depository?
Mrs. PAINE. It seemed to me he went into town with some hopes raised by the employment agency--whether a public or private employment agency I don't know--but then reported that the job had been filled and not available to him.
Mr. JENNER. But that was----
Mrs. PAINE. That is my best recollection.
Mr. JENNER. Of his report to you and Marina?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. But you do recall his discussing it.
Mrs. PAINE. I recall something of that nature. I do not recall the job itself.
Mr. JENNER. I hand you a document, Mrs. Paine, marked Ruth Paine Exhibit 469, entitled "Translation from Russian."
(The document referred to was marked Ruth Paine Exhibit 469 for identification.)
It appears to be a note from you addressed to "Dear Marina" signed "Ruth."
Having examined that document, is the note of which that purports to be a translation familiar to you?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is familiar to me.
Mr. JENNER. Did you prepare and transmit the original?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. When did you do that?
Mrs. PAINE. That was some time after the assassination. This note accompanied a group of letters originally addressed to me, but which carried enclosures for Marina which I took to the Irving police and they transmitted to the Secret Service, and thence to Marina.
Mr. JENNER. All right. I offer in evidence as Ruth Paine Exhibit 469 the document that has been so marked. Would you look at that. Having examined that, may I ask you a question or two about it.
Has my questioning of you this morning and your testimony of today and previously, and your examination of various documents refreshed your recollection as to additional motivation, that is in addition to what you have already given, for your undertaking the study of the Russian language?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, examination of that letter which I completely had forgotten.
Mr. JENNER. Having that----
Mrs. PAINE. It sounds like a very valid description----
Mr. JENNER. Having that to refresh your recollection, do you wish to add to your testimony as to your motivation in studying Russian?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, I can explain two phrases I did not understand when you used them without the rest of the paragraph. It is a socially useful interest--and then I go on to say, "By this I mean I get a great deal of excitement out of talking with these young friends," and I mention some.
Mr. JENNER. And this is a document, a letter you wrote your mother, when?
Mrs. PAINE. This is written June 7, 1957, according to the date on it. I enjoyed the contact with these friends, and our common interest in Russian exchange.
Then also the reference to its being an intellectual decision--I am opposing intellectual decision to the initial leading or calling to study the language, which was not intellectual but a felt thing. Then the decision to study specifically
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Russian--as it says right here, "The decision to study Russian specifically is an intellectual decision" which came after the leading. That is something I thought out, that kind of intellectual--rather than a prompting from within.
Mr. JENNER. And when you use the expression--you Quakers use the expression that you have a leading--you mean a prompting from your--inner prompting.
Mrs. PAINE. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. I would like to confirm with you, if I can, Mrs. Paine your recollection is that Lee Oswald had come home on the evening of November 8, and that it was the following day, the following morning, the 9th, that you took him, with Marina, to the driver's license application bureau.
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. And that it was some other weekend that he did not come on Friday, but came on Saturday morning.
Mrs. PAINE. I would think so.
Mr. JENNER. That that is your present recollection.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. I will support it by saying that he used my typewriter before he went to the driver training location.
Mr. JENNER. Now, when you say you have a recollection of his having used your typewriter, you mean the evening before?
Mrs. PAINE. No, I mean the morning before. But that would have had to be fairly soon after breakfast.
Mr. JENNER. You mean in the morning before you left for the driver's license bureau, he used your typewriter?
Mrs. PAINE. It was the morning of the 9th, before we left for the driver training bureau. And I am just saying that if he had come in on Saturday, I doubt it would have been that early.
Mr. JENNER. I see. So that tends to confirm your own recollection that he had come to your home the night before as usual.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. That he arose in the morning, and used your typewriter, and then you all departed for the driver's license bureau.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you take him to the parking lot for instruction on more than one occasion?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. About how many?
Mrs. PAINE. There were at least two. I think probably just two. And add to that one occasion when we practiced only in front of the house, just parking. Three lessons altogether.
Mr. JENNER. Was there an English-language dictionary on your desk secretary at the time you found what I call the Mexico letter?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, there was--a pocket dictionary.
Mr. JENNER. Was that an English-Russian, or just----
Mrs. PAINE. Just English.
Mr. JENNER. Was that your dictionary or was it his?
Mrs. PAINE. It was not mine.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know of any reason why--I will restate the question.
Do you have any inward feeling or any hunch or anything along those lines that Robert Oswald might have taken a dislike to you or to your husband?
Mrs. PAINE. I have no feeling of that sort.
Mr. JENNER. Nothing has occurred to lead you to have that feeling?
Mrs. PAINE. Except your question.
Mr. JENNER. Pardon?
Mrs. PAINE. Except your question.
Mr. JENNER. Yes, other than my question. That is the trouble with leading questions.
Do you recall whether at any time in your home Lee Oswald had viewed any movies of the assassination of--fictional assassination of a President or anyone holding high public office?
Mrs. PAINE. I do not recall.
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Mr. JENNER. Do you recall at any time during the period he was in home that you saw such a movie on television?
Mrs. PAINE. I know I did not.
Mr. JENNER. You mentioned yesterday, I believe it was, you recalled his looking at late one evening at a spy movie on television.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. I think German World War II variety.
Mr. JENNER. It is your recollection that you did not ask Mrs. Randle to call the Texas School Book Depository?
Mrs. PAINE. That is my clear recollection.
Mr. JENNER. There was no refusal on the part of Mrs. Randle to do so. I am afraid it follows if you did not ask her, there was no refusal.
Mrs. PAINE. It certainly does.
Mr. JENNER. I am trying to awaken again your recollection of that incident.
Mrs. PAINE. Well, there is no recollection whatever.
Mr. JENNER. Of that sort of thing having occurred in the course of that discussion.
Mrs. PAINE. Of that sort of thing.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall whether or not Mrs. Randle, as a friendly gesture her suggestions were friendly, were they not, in connection with his securing employment?
Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did she mention the Manner Bakery?
Mrs. PAINE. Possibly; yes. I do recall saying that Lee doesn't drive, making the point that this was a hampering thing for him. And, of course, therefore it made it impossible for him to drive a truck for the Manner Bakery.
Mr. JENNER. And in that connection, had she mentioned the Texas Gypsum Co.?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall that.
Mr. JENNER. At least you do recall that it was impractical to consider possible positions which would require him to operate an automobile.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. I believe I do recall a reference now to driving a truck, delivery truck.
Mr. JENNER. Harkening back to the meeting at Mr. Glover's apartment or home on the 22d. of February 1963, do you recall whether Lee Oswald said anything about whether he was a Communist?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall him saying anything of that nature.
Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about any attempt on his part to join the Communist Party while he was in Russia?
Mrs. PAINE. No; he did not. I did not listen to everything he said that evening.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall an incident in which there was a telephone call by Col. J. D. Wilmeth to your home, in which he spoke with Marina?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I do.
Mr. JENNER. Would you tell us about that?
Mrs. PAINE. I would say this was a week or less before the assassination. He called and asked--he called from Arlington, Tex., which is between Fort Worth and Dallas, and asked if he could come over some time to----
Mr. JENNER. Would that be a nontoll call?
Mrs. PAINE. That was a toll call.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mrs. PAINE. To talk with Marina, that he had heard she was living at my house, and was interested in speaking with somebody who spoke natively.
Mr. JENNER. Did he speak with you on that occasion?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You are recounting, then, your conversation with him, and in turn his conversation with her, as she might have reported it?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Have you completed all you wish to say about that incident?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. Are you going to ask me if he came?
Mr. JENNER. I put the question as to what you wished to say. Have you completed your full recollection of the incident?
Mrs. PAINE. That is my recollection of the phone call. He then did come.
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Mr. JENNER. And when did he come?
Mrs. PAINE. My recollection is that he asked to come--that he worked at Arlington State College on Tuesdays and Thursdays; that he called us on Tuesday and asked to come Thursday, and we said Thursday was not the best time, and he and we agreed upon the following Tuesday.
My best judgment is that he actually came then on the 19th of November.
Mr. JENNER. All right. And how long did he stay?
Mrs. PAINE. Oh, perhaps an hour. And I cannot even recall exactly what time, except I think it was right in the middle of when we should have been making dinner.
Mr. JENNER. Did he visit with both you and Marina?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; he did.
Mr. JENNER. And were arrangements made for his return on another occasion?
Mrs. PAINE. I cannot recall that we made a specific date, but we certainly planned to get together again.
Mr. JENNER. And was this strictly a social call?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it was. An interest in the language motivated his coming. He is a teacher of Russian at Arlington State College.
Mr. JENNER. Let's see. Lee Oswald was not home on that occasion.
Mrs. PAINE. No; he was not.
Mr. JENNER. I mean he was not in Irving on that occasion.
Mrs. PAINE. No; he was not.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, I have only one more question.
Do you wish to add anything, or has anything occurred to you which you have not up to this moment testified to with respect to the Oswald incident and this great tragedy which my questions and the questions of the members of the Commission have not heretofore elicited, and which you think might be helpful to the Commission in its work?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, you have not yet asked me if I had seen anything of a note purported to be written by Lee at the time of the attempt on Walker. And I might just recount for you that, if it is of any importance.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; I wish you would--how that occurred. Tell me all you know about it--all you knew about it up to and including November 22.
Mrs. PAINE. I knew absolutely nothing about it up to and including November 22.
Mr. JENNER. Is there any explanation or anything that you feel you ought to say or wish to say about that incident?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, just that I was shown a portion of a note by two Secret Service men.
Mr. JENNER. This was after November 22?
Mrs. PAINE. It certainly was. Perhaps a week later. I had sent Marina one of these small collections of letters, such as I have described, that includes notes to her and donations, and left such with the Irving police. And on one occasion left also a couple of books which were hers. I referred to the fact that she read to me from a child care book. One of these was a book from which she had been recently reading to me, and she used it much as I had used Benjamin Spock's "Baby and Child Care" when my babies were small--that is constant daily reference. And I thought she would want to have it with her.
I believe it was probably the next day I got a call from the Secret Service saying something important had come up in this case, could they come out and see me. I said yes, of course. They arrived. Mr. Gopadze, of the Secret Service, who was acting as translator, and I think the other man's name was Patterson, and he spoke English only--Mr. Gopadze showed me a piece of paper with writing on it, a small piece of paper such as might come from a telephone note pad. He asked me not to read it through carefully, but simply to look at it enough to tell whether I could identify the handwriting and whether I had ever seen it before. I said I could not identify the handwriting. I observed that it was written in Russian, that the second word was a transliteration from the English word--that it said "This key"--using the word "key" rather than the Russian word--and went on to say it was for a post office box. And
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that is as far as I read. And Mr. Gopadze indicated that it was his impression that I had sent this note to Marina. And this surprised me. And I said----
Mr. JENNER. That is a masterpiece of understatement, isn't it?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it certainly is. It astounded me. I said that---I repeated that I had not seen it and did not know how I might possibly have sent this to Marina Oswald. I asked if he thought the note was current, and he did not say.
We went on for some time with Mr. Gopadze--this in Russian--saying that "Mrs. Paine, it would be well for you to be absolutely frank and tell us exactly what happened" and my saying in turn to Mr. Gopadze, "I am. What more can I do than what I have said." And finally we went over to English and included Mr. Patterson in the conversation, and he volunteered this note had been in a book. Then I realized what must have happened is that I did send Marina Oswald a book, and described my having sent this to this Irving police and the Secret Service. And that seemed to clear up the mystery for all of us. And they left.
Then I don't recall whether this first reference to General Walker having been shot at was before or after this incident, but I am certain I made no connection between the two. It was not until it was reported by the Houston Chronicle that there was a note written by Lee Oswald at the time of the attempt on Walker's life, and they also reported some of the content of that note and included a reference to a post office box, that I made a connection to the note that had been shown me by Mr. Gopadze.
I bring this up because I was irritated by Mr. John Thorne's statement to me that he thought that I was probably the one to have given the Houston Chronicle information about this note. I was sufficiently irritated that I called the Houston Chronicle and spoke to the executive editor, asked if he could tell me who had given them this information. He said no, he could not. I said that I was curious, because someone had thought that I had. He said, "We can certainly tell anyone that you did not." But I don't think Mr. Thorne was interested enough to have made such a call himself.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall doing some shopping on the morning of the 9th after you had gone to the driver's license bureau and found it closed?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, we shopped at a dime store immediately adjacent, or in the same shopping center as the driver's license bureau.
Mr. JENNER. And some few small articles were purchased?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. And you arrived home when--about noon?
Mrs. PAINE. For a late lunch, I would say. I might say Lee was as gay as I have ever seen him in the car riding back to the house. He sang, he joked, he made puns, or he made up songs mutilating the Russian language, which tickled and pained, Marina, both at once.
Mr. JENNER. What did he do that afternoon, if you recall?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall.
Mr. JENNER. Did he look at television?
Mrs. PAINE. My guess is that he certainly looked at television.
Mr. JENNER. Did you leave your home late that afternoon?
Mrs. PAINE. I went to vote. This would be a trip of perhaps 20 minutes.
Mr. JENNER. And he was at home when you left? And was he at home when you returned?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, at any time during that morning drive did you by any chance stop by a car dealers?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Either going to or from the driver's license bureau?
Mrs. PAINE. No, we did not stop at a car dealers.
Mr. JENNER. What is your opinion as to whether Lee Oswald could have been at the Lincoln-Mercury dealership in downtown Dallas on that day?
Mrs. PAINE. I think he could not have been.
Mr. JENNER. Was he out of your sight other than the period of time it took you to go to the polls to vote that day?
Mrs. PAINE. It is entirely possible that I made a short trip to the grocery store in the afternoon. But I would say he was not out of my sight for any length of time.
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Mr. JENNER. In any event, you were conscious of his being in your home or within your general presence all day.
Mrs. PAINE. The entire day. Shall I give what recollections I have for activities of the 10th?
Mr. JENNER. Yes, please.
Mrs. PAINE. It is my best recollection that this lesson in parking to which I have referred occurred on the 10th, late in the afternoon.
Mr. JENNER. That is Sunday afternoon?
Mrs. PAINE. On Sunday afternoon. I would guess that he had watched pro football on the television in the afternoon. It was early evening after supper, and my recollection is that Michael Paine was also at the home. I cannot recall whether he had had supper with us, but I would guess so. Then I asked the two men, Lee and Michael, to help me in rearranging the furniture in the living room. And as I have already said, in reference to my testimony regarding the note, Commission Exhibit 103, the note referring to Mexico City--I will add to that testimony here--I remembered suddenly that this note was still on the top of my secretary desk in the living room, preceded the two men into the room, and put it into my desk. This is the folding front, you know. I just opened it, put it in and closed it. And then we moved all the furniture in the room around.
Mr. JENNER. The two men were Lee Oswald and your husband?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right
Mr. JENNER. And on that occasion, you took the note, which is Commission Exhibit 103, which I call the Mexico note, and you put it inside the secretary.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And----
Mrs. PAINE. After having left it on my desk for 2 full days, waiting for it to be picked up.
Mr. JENNER. You had left it in the same place it was when you first noticed it?
Mrs. PAINE. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. And that was out in the open.
Mrs. PAINE. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. Have you recounted all that occurs to you as pertinent to that weekend?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have a tape recorder in and about your home during that period?
Mrs. PAINE. Two of them.
Mr. JENNER. Would it have been possible for Lee Oswald, while at your home, to have made a tape recording?
Mrs. PAINE. Wait. I take it back. I had one, a small one, which did not work well. My best recollection is that Michael's, which would have been the other, was not them at that time. He was using it at his shop.
Mr. JENNER. So yours was not in working condition and his was at his shop.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. At his quarters?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I meant the place of work.
Mr. JENNER. At Bell Helicopter?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. So that it is your opinion that Lee Oswald could not have made any tape recording.
Mrs. PAINE. That's my opinion.
Mr. JENNER. Is it your recollection you were not interviewed by any agent of the FBI on or about October 27 or on or about October 29, 1963?
Mrs. PAINE. That is my recollection.
Mr. JENNER. If you were interviewed, you are not conscious of it.
Mrs. PAINE. I was certainly not conscious of it.
Mr. JENNER. Is it your opinion, based on your recollection of all of the association of Lee Oswald with you and at your home, that it could not have been possible for him to have taken a weapon, such as the rifle involved here, to any range, shooting range, sportsdome, gun range, or otherwise, on any
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occasion when he was in Irving, Tex. residing or staying as a guest in your home?
Mrs. PAINE. The only time when he was there and I was away long enough for him to have gone somewhere and come back, and I now know that I can recall was Monday, the 11th of November. I have described my presence at the home on the 9th and 10th. And to the best of my recollection, there was no long period of time that I was away from the home when he was there. I may also say that there is no way of getting from my home unless you walk or have someone drive you.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mrs. Paine, was there an occasion or incident in which the possibility of Marina seeking or obtaining employment in Philadelphia arose?
Mrs. PAINE. When she was with me in May of 1963, we talked briefly about the possibility of her going with me, accompanying me on my vacation to the East--this was before I had plans to---definite plans to teach for the summer.
She was interested in finding out what sort of job possibilities there might be for her in New York, Philadelphia, or Washington, where there were larger speaking Russian populations, and where her knowledge of Russian might be an advantage rather than a handicap. She was quite excited about this possibility and wrote Lee a letter in which she referred to it.
After thinking about it, I felt that it was not a good time for her to be applying, since she would be very clearly pregnant when making such an application, and I thought she would be apt to be discouraged.
Mr. JENNER. And you so told her?
Mrs. PAINE. And I told her so, after she had written a letter.
Mr. JENNER. And that letter of hers is in evidence?
Mrs. PAINE. No; it is not. She only refers to having written this letter.
Mr. JENNER. Exhibit 415?
Mrs. PAINE. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Even I am exhausted of questions, Mrs. Paine. I want to express to you on the record my personal appreciation of your tremendous patience. Some of these inquiries, I know, have been quite detailed. Unfortunately we must make this sort of search. You have been very helpful. On behalf of myself and the Commission, I express to your our appreciation.
Mrs. PAINE. Well, I am very glad to be of help.
Mr. JENNER. We have no further questions as of this time. Mr. Reporter, we will close this particular deposition.
Mrs. Paine, it is customary, and the witness has the right, to insist upon reading and signing a deposition. It is also customary for counsel to inquire whether the witness desires to waive that privilege. And I now put that question to you.
Mrs. PAINE. I understand it would be difficult for you to get that typed up for me to read before going back to Texas.
Mr. JENNER. It would be impossible to get it typed up for you to read before you go back to Texas, because I understand you are going back to Texas tomorrow, or Monday morning.
Mrs. PAINE. Monday morning. So realizing--while I would be interested to read it through, and would hope to sometime, I will waive the right to do so.
Mr. JENNER. Thank you.
TESTIMONY OF RUTH HYDE PAINE RESUMED
The testimony of Ruth Hyde Paine was taken at 7:30 p.m., on March 23, 1964, at 2515 West Fifth Street, Irving, Tex., home of deponent by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. JENNER. Let the record show that this is a resumption of the deposition of Mrs. Ruth Avery Hyde Paine, who appeared before the Commission last week and whose supplemental deposition I took on Saturday.
Since we are in a different jurisdiction now, Mrs. Paine, may I swear you?
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Mrs. PAINE. You may affirm me.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Do you affirm that the testimony that you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?
Mrs. PAINE. To the very best of my ability, I do so affirm.
Mr. JENNER. Present at the taking of this deposition is John Joe Howlett, H-o-w-l-e-t-t [spelling] of the U.S. Secret Service.
We are at the moment in the dining room-kitchen area of Mrs. Paine's home; is that correct, Mrs. Paine?
Mrs. PAINE. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. And Mr. Howlett and I have measured the rooms in the presence of Mrs. Paine. The dining room-kitchen area is open. It's full length from wall to wall is 25 feet and 4 inches in length and 12 feet, 4 inches in width. The distance from the west wall of the dining room-kitchen area to the outside wall of the bedroom on the northeast corner is 31 feet, 2 inches. That particular bedroom in the northeast corner is 12 feet by 12 feet, 1 inch. The southeast corner of the house consists of a bedroom directly to the south of the first bedroom I have just described and it is 12 feet, 1 inch by 10 feet, 9 inches. That particular bedroom opens by window, a large picture window onto West Fifth Street. The northeast bedroom has two windows, one on the north wall and one on the east wall. These are unlike the southeast bedroom in that neither of these windows is a picture window.
Mrs. PAINE. The southeast bedroom also has two windows and the picture window, I think, gives a slightly larger impression than I have of it--it's around 43 inches wide.
Mr. JENNER. Shall we measure it, then?
(At this point Counsel Jenner and Agent Howlett took the measurements discussed.)
Mr. JENNER. The picture window facing on Fifth Street is--why don't you recite it, Mr. Howlett?
Agent HOWLETT. Three feet, three inches and four feet, eight inches high.
Mr. JENNER Three feet, three inches wide and four feet, eight inches high?
Agent HOWLETT. Right.
Mrs. PAINE. That's not very wide is it--39 inches?
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, would you be good enough to go outside at the curb and stand at the place at which the FBI agent's automobile was on, as I recall your testimony, November 5, 1963, so that we can observe you through the picture window we have just mentioned and read it in the evidence?
Mrs. PAINE. I'll do my best.
(At this point the witness, Mrs. Paine, left the house and proceeded to comply with the request of Counsel Jenner and Counsel Jenner stationed himself in the bedroom referred to before the window.)
Mr. JENNER. Back on the record. Mrs. Paine, I have asked you to locate as near as you can, to the best of your recollection, the position of the FBI agent's automobile where he parked on November 5, 1962, when he made his second visit to you, and have you done so?
Mrs. PAINE. To the best of my recollection I have to say to you that I cannot be absolutely certain that the blue Oldsmobile was in front of my house on that day. I don't remember for certainty. If my husband's other car was being fixed, it was not in front of the house but that should be easily determined by asking the repair shop.
Mr. JENNER Now, would you afford me your best recollection, however, at the moment?
Mrs. PAINE. My best recollection is that it was on the street. You now see Mr. Howlett's car.
Mr. JENNER. I will describe that and you listen to me as I describe it. I am now in the southeast bedroom of Mrs. Paine's home, looking out the picture window facing onto Fifth Avenue.
Mrs. PAINE. Street.
Mr. JENNER. On Fifth Street.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And I see two automobiles; first, there is a large--what is that, an elm or oak?
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Mrs, PAINE. It is an oak.
Mr. JENNER. An oak tree---I would say about 26 inches through, which is in the center of the lawn in front of the house. We will measure it, John Joe, and the lawn in due course, but the Secret Service automobile is now parked at the curb on the northeast street, which is the curb at the Paine home and directly in front of which is the blue and cream-colored automobile. Is that a four-door or two-door?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't know--I guess it is a two-door.
Mr. JENNER. It is a two-tone, two-colored car, blue body and a cream-colored trim, which extends across the hood. The front bumper of Agent Howlett's automobile is just about touching the rear bumper of the automobile. The two cars together, or the combined length spans substantially all of the space between the driveway on the left, which is, I take it, the driveway to the Roberts home.
Mrs. PAINE. No; they are on the other side of the street. It's a home that's not now used.
Mr. JENNER. The house is not occupied--that home?
Mrs. PAINE. It has not been occupied for over a year.
Mr. JENNER. That home that I am talking about is the home to the east, and as the witness has stated, it has not been occupied for a year.
It was unoccupied, then, during the time that Marina stayed with you last fall?
Mrs. PAINE. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. And the front end or front bumper of the blue and cream automobile is just a few feet east of the automobile drive over on the west side of the Paine premises?
Mrs. PAINE. I would like to put my children to bed now.
Mr. JENNER. Could you wait just 1 second? I wish John Joe would check me on this standing where I am, looking out this window.
It is impossible--at least impossible to see any license plate on either of the two automobiles parked at the curb I have described.
Agent HOWLETT. Yes; that's correct.
Mr. JENNER. And, you are shining your searchlight on both automobiles?
Agent HOWLETT. I am shining a flashlight on the front and rear of both automobiles and you cannot even see the license plate, much less any of the numbers.
Mr. JENNER. You can't even see whether there are license plates, let alone make out the numbers?
Agent HOWLETT. That's correct, you can't even see the numbers.
Mr. JENNER. All right, we will suspend for your convenience now.
(At this point Counsel Jenner, Agent Howlett, and Mrs. Paine, as well as the court reporter, left the area of the bedroom heretofore mentioned from which window the examination was being made of premises outside the window, Mrs. Paine proceeding to care for her children and Counsel Jenner, Agent Howlett and the court reporter returning to the dining room-kitchen area where the deposition is primarily being conducted. Shortly thereafter Mrs. Paine returned to the area of the taking of the deposition and proceedings of same continued as follows:)
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, you were present when I described the view or described my observations looking through the picture window first on Fifth Street?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And, was I accurate in my description of the lot area and the automobiles parked in front and what could be seen and what could not be seen in the way of a license plate?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; you were accurate.
Mr. JENNER. On the 5th day of November did an agent of the FBI come for a second time to interview you?
Mrs. PAINE. I didn't recall the day, but I have been told it was that day--yes.
Mr. JENNER. While you do recall that it was 4 or 5 days after the 1st of November?
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Mrs. PAINE. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. What time of day was it, or night, if it was night?
Mrs. PAINE. I'm trying to think what else was going on.
Mr. JENNER. Go ahead.
Mrs. PAINE. My best estimate it was afternoon.
Mr. JENNER. I'll ask you this, it was during the daytime?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it was during the day.
Mr. JENNER. What is your recollection as to the state of the weather?
Mrs. PAINE It was a fair day, and I think it was afternoon, but I'm not sure-- absolutely certain of that.
Mr. JENNER. By the way, was it Agent Hosty?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it was. He had someone else with him that time.
Mr. JENNER. And did the other FBI agent come in with Agent Hosty?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, just barely across the threshold.
Mr. JENNER. Did either of these gentlemen give you the license number of the automobile which they had parked in front of your home?
Mrs. PAINE. No; they did not.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ascertain that license number?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I did not.
Mr. JENNER. Did you make any attempt to do so?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I made no attempt to.
Mr. JENNER. Was Marina Oswald in your home on that occasion?
Mrs. PAINE. She was in my home.
Mr. JENNER. When they arrived, where was she in your home?
Mrs. PAINE. When they arrived, she was in the front bedroom.
Mr. JENNER. Was anything said during the whole course of their presence and even afterward by her, which indicated or led you to believe or by implication or otherwise, that she had observed the license number on the FBI automobile?
Mrs. PAINE. Nothing was said that might indicate that.
Mr. JENNER. Or any implication or anything from what you might have drawn an inference, that she had paid attention to a license number?
Mrs. PAINE. Nothing at all.
Mr. JENNER. Did a discussion occur during that conference or interview in which Agent Hosty made reference to the parking of his automobile on the occasion of November I when he had interviewed you?
Mrs. PAINE. This is entirely possible. I recall distinctly that I noticed that they were parked down the street or he was parked down the street on the first interview, and it seems to me----
Mr. JENNER. You had noticed that at the time?
Mrs. PAINE. I had noticed that.
Mr. JENNER. And how did that come to your attention?
Mrs. PAINE. I think Mr. Hosty may have brought it up, brought it up to his having talked to my neighbor a previous time. He made the point that he tried not to be too obvious or upset the neighbors by their visits.
Mr. JENNER. And having that delicacy in mind, he had parked the car down the street?
Mrs. PAINE. The first time.
Mr. JENNER. The neighbor to whom you refer is Mrs. Roberts?
Mrs. PAINE. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. And her home is next door to the west?
Mrs. PAINE. That's right--2519.
Mr. JENNER. Now, we have used the general term "down the street," which way was "down the street," to the west or to the east?
Mrs. PAINE How did we use the term?
Mr. JENNER. You said he said he parked down the street.
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall exactly whether it was down--my best recollection is that he was parked in front of the house that the Ponders used to live in.
Mr. JENNER. The whom?
Mrs. PAINE. The Ponders.
Mr. JENNER. P-o-n-d-e-r-s .[spelling]?
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Mrs. PAINE. P-o-n-d-e-r-s [spelling]--Ponder is the name, but it is the brick house on the southwest corner of Fifth Street and----
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, that's east.
Mrs. PAINE. The southwest corner of the crossing of Fifth Street and whatever it is--you know, Westbrook.
Mr. JENNER. Is that the crossroad?
Mrs. PAINE. In other words--yes--it's directly diagonal from the Randles.
Mr. JENNER Is it southeast and at a diagonal across the street from your home?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; or, it may have been down the street farther the other way, or I may be confused with what Mrs. Roberts told me about where he parked when he first came to talk with her.
Mr. JENNER. Let me ask you: Did you see his car, his automobile on that day--November lst?
Mrs. PAINE. I believe I did--yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you watch him leave the premises and just watch the two men drive away?
Mrs. PAINE. There was only one the first time.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mrs. PAINE. Well, I can't recall. But I would think it likely that I did.
Mr. JENNER. Where was Marina on that occasion?
Mrs. PAINE. She was in the living room with me.
Mr. JENNER. Was she beside you?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Were you both looking out the window?
Mrs. PAINE. To the best I can recall.
Mr. JENNER. And had you so desired, could you have seen the license plate on Agent Hosty's automobile on that occasion, to wit, November lst?
Mrs. PAINE. Not with 20-40 vision.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have 20-40 vision?
Mrs. PAINE. It's 20-40 or 20-50---I forget.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have an opinion as to whether the license plate could have been seen with 20-20 vision?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't have an opinion.
Mr. JENNER. Did Agent Hosty pass in front of your house?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall at all.
Mr. JENNER. Now, facing as you are, onto Fifth Street, do you have that recollection now as to whether the FBI automobile passed when Mr. Hosty left and drove away, did it pass in front of your house?
Mrs. PAINE. My best recollection is that I had already taken my attention elsewhere, that I didn't try to notice, and certainly I did not notice whether he passed in front of the house.
Mr. JENNER. At any rate, you did not look at the license plate?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. And seek to ascertain the number?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I did not.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know whether Marina did?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't know.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know whether she could have?
Mrs. PAINE. That's possible she might have if one can see that with normal vision.
Mr. JENNER. So that on the November 1st date, you are unable to fix definitely whether she did or didn't, or could or could not have seen the license plate and the number of Agent Hosty's automobile?
Mrs. PAINE. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. Would you give us your best judgment in the premises as to whether she did--you had some feeling of her presence on that day, have you not?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I certainly didn't see her write anything down.
Mr. JENNER. And what was your impression, if you had any?
Mrs. PAINE. I have none.
Mr. JENNER. You just weren't thinking of license plates at all?
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Mrs. PAINE. No; I wasn't.
Mr. JENNER. Were you thinking of them on the fifth?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I wasn't.
Mr. JENNER. In any event, the automobile of Agent Hosty was parked, as you say, down the street and some few houses, at least a number of feet away from your home on the first, whereas, he parked it in front of your home as we have now noted on the fifth.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. I notice you have a bathtub shower?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Was Lee Oswald in the habit of taking a shower?
Mrs. PAINE. He often took a shower when he arrived home from work on Friday, when he arrived here from work on a Friday afternoon and before dinner.
Mr. JENNER. Did he take a shower, to your recollection, in the mornings when he was here?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall his having done so.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have any recollection as to whether he took a shower in any event on the morning of November 22?
Mrs. PAINE. I have no recollection of him at all on the morning of November 22d, except an empty coffee cup.
Mr. JENNER. I take it that, and I should say in the presence of yourself and Mr. Howlett, that the bathroom is located on the north side of the house in between the wall of the northeast bedroom and the back wall of the combination kitchen and dining room area.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Am I correct?
Mrs. PAINE. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. And when a shower is taken and you are in your bedroom where you were as I recall on November 22 in the morning, it makes a noise and it's quite noticeable to you, is it?
Mrs. PAINE. If I'm asleep, there are many things that are not noticeable to me. I do leave my room door open.
Mr. JENNER. Well, apart from whether you were asleep, I just wanted to get that--whether you could hear it.
Mrs. PAINE. I would certainly hear it.
Mr. JENNER. And does it make enough racket or noise so that it might well awaken you if it's turned on?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; especially that close to morning.
Mr. JENNER. And you were not awakened this morning by any shower?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have a recollection as to whether you noticed, when you performed your own ablutions that morning as to whether the shower had been employed, that is, was the shower curtain moist or wet?
Mrs. PAINE. I made no notice such as that.
Mr. JENNER. Is it likely that had the shower been used you would have noticed it?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I can't say as it is.
Mr. JENNER. You had, I gather, no sense of his presence that morning and his leavetaking that morning at all until you arose and he was then gone?
Mrs. PAINE. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. You heard no moving about on his part prior to your awakening?
Mrs. PAINE. No moving about on his part at all when I looked when I awoke.
(At this point Counsel Jenner and Agent Howlett took other measurements in the hallway of the Witness Paine.)
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Howlett and I have measured the bathroom and it is 5 feet wide and 8 feet 8 inches long. The hallway running north and south at the entrance to the 2 bedrooms, using the wall instead of the jamb, 9 feet 6 inches long, and 3 feet 4 inches wide.
The living room, which faces on Fifth Street and is to the east of the garage wall and to the west of the hallway, running across to the 2 bedrooms which we have just measured, and which faces out onto Fifth Street, is 13 feet wide by
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16 feet 8 inches long. Now, Mrs. Paine, I'll stand beside you, if I may, and I am facing toward Fifth Street, am I not?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And we are sitting in the dining room portion of the combination kitchen-dining room?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Directly in front of us--I am standing right behind you--on the left is a doorway entering into your living room?
Mrs. PAINE. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. There is a wall between that wall jamb and another door jamb to the right or west?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And that door opens onto what?
Mrs. PAINE. It goes into the garage.
Mr. JENNER. Now, John Joe, if you will measure the distance between the outer edge of the door jamb of the living room door and the door jamb of the garage door, however, let's get the outside.
Agent HOWLETT. It would be 1 foot 2 inches from outside jamb to outside jamb.
Mr. JENNER. So that the space west----
Mrs. PAINE. That's east, I'm sorry.
Mr. JENNER. The wall spacing and the two door jambs together, separate the two doors and are of the width which has been recited. Now, before I open the door, which you say enters into the garage--by the way, how wide is that?
Agent HOWLETT. It is a 2-foot 8-inch door.
Mr. JENNER. And how high?
Agent HOWLETT. It is 6 feet 8 1/2 inches and it would actually be classified as a 6-foot 9-inch door.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, is there a light switch on the dining room wall which lights the light in the garage?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. I see a light switch just immediately to the right of the door jamb of the door leading into the garage; what is that switch for?
Mrs. PAINE. It lights the light in the dining area.
Mr. JENNER. And on one of the photographs taken by the FBI, that light switch appeared, did it not?
Mrs. PAINE. I would expect so.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall that it did?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't specifically recall--I recall the shot which included that area.
Mr. JENNER. That light switch, then, John Joe, let us locate it.
Agent HOWLETT. It is 4 feet 6 inches from the floor.
Mr. JENNER. It is 4 feet 6 inches from the floor and how many inches to the center of the light switch?
Agent HOWLETT. It is actually about 6 3/4 inches to the center of the light switch.
Mrs. PAINE. My best recollection is that I did see that switch in the FBI photograph.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, when we arrived, what was the condition of the garage floor as to whether it was opened or closed? That is, the full door facing onto Fifth Street?
Mrs. PAINE. The outside garage door--the large one?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. PAINE. It is closed and has been since you arrived.
Mr. JENNER. And the door that is leading into the garage?
Mrs. PAINE. Is likewise closed and has been since you arrived.
Mr. JENNER. None of us has been in there, including yourself, since I arrived?
Mrs. PAINE. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. Now, I'm going to open the door and observe that first there is a screen door on the other side of the wall, is there not?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Facing the wooden garage door that I have just opened. Now,
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I have stepped into the garage and would you come over here, Mrs. Paine?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Is there a light switch handy to turn the light on in your garage?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; there is.
Mr. JENNER. And would you snap it on?
Mrs. PAINE. (The witness complied with the request of Counsel Jenner and turned on the light.)
Mr. JENNER. And that light switch is immediately to your right as you enter the garage from the dining room area, is it not?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is.
Mr. JENNER. And, John Joe, would you measure its height from the floor?
Agent HOWLETT. It is also 4 feet 6 inches.
Mr. JENNER. And is set with relation to the doorjamb, how many inches?
Agent HOWLETT. Six and one-half inches.
Mr. JENNER. And that's to the right of the doorjamb as you enter from the dining room area?
Agent HOWLETT. Right.
Mr. JENNER. So, Mrs. Paine, it is within very easy reach--it's less than a hand's length away, is it not?
Mrs. PAINE. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. Now, we have entered the garage. Let's measure the garage in the presence of Mrs. Paine, John Joe, and I will now take one end to the far end of the garage facing onto Fifth Street, and place the tape against the inside facing of the garage door opening out onto Fifth Street. What is the length to the dining room wall?
Agent HOWLETT. It is 21 feet 8 inches.
Mr. JENNER. Now, let's get it across.
Agent HOWLETT. It is 10 feet 6 inches wide.
Mr. JENNER. Now, Mrs. Paine, I notice that in the northwest corner of your garage there appears to be a small storage room, I would describe it.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. And that small storage room is completely enclosed except for a small opening which does not have a door or cover; is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. And the storeroom is 4 feet 8 inches wide, measuring from east to west; is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Agent HOWLETT. Yes
Mr. JENNER. And it is how many feet and inches deep?
Agent HOWLETT. Three feet one inch deep.
Mr. JENNER Meaning the distance from the back of the dining room area wall and the outside portion facing of the south wall of the storeroom?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And this storeroom, Mrs. Paine, runs all the way from the floor to the ceiling, does it not, of your garage?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it does.
Mr. JENNER. And I judge well, John Joe, we might as well measure that while we are at it, with the door open, to the floor of the grass to the ceiling?
Agent HOWLETT. From the ceiling to the floor of the grass is 8 feet 3 inches.
Mr. JENNER. Now, we will measure the opening into the storage room. The opening itself is I foot 8 inches inside wide, and 5 feet 11 inches tall.
Mrs. Paine, in your testimony last week in referring to the blanket-wrapped package, you located it in two places in your garage, which I will review with you in a moment; could the package at any time have been placed in the storeroom?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I suppose so.
Mr. JENNER. And if placed in the storeroom, it would not have been open to view unless you climbed back in there to see; is that correct?
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Mrs. PAINE. Yes; there is nothing I normally get in the storeroom--well, no; that's not strictly so. I hid birthday presents for--my little girl's birthday party was on the 16th of November--in there in the storeroom.
Mr. JENNER. All right, that's an interesting development. When the birthday presents of your daughter, anticipating her fourth birthday on the 16th of November 1963, did you notice at that time the blanket wrapped package in the storeroom?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I did not.
Mr. JENNER. And, in secreting those presents would you reasonably, necessarily have noticed that blanket wrapped package in that small storeroom?
Mrs. PAINE. I think I would have noticed it.
Mr. JENNER. When did you remove those secreted birthday gifts from that small storeroom?
Mrs. PAINE. To the best of my recollection some were removed on Friday evening the 15th, and some on Saturday the 16th.
Mr. JENNER. Was the blanket wrapped package which you have described last week, in that storeroom on either of those occasions?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. And would you have noticed the blanket wrapped package in that small storeroom had it been there?
Mrs. PAINE. I surely would have.
Mr. JENNER. Now, Agent Howlett has called my attention to the fact that there is an opening in the ceiling of your garage which leads up to, as I see it now, crawl space above the garage which extends, I take it, the length of your house?
Mrs. PAINE. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. And, John Joe, what is that--2 feet by 2 feet?
Agent HOWLETT. Roughly--yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Has that crawl space opening been without a cover for some considerable period of time?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall its ever having had a cover.
Mr. JENNER. And did you have occasion----
Mrs. PAINE. There was a fan in it for a while--is there now?
Agent HOWLETT. There's an edge of a fan sticking out.
Mrs. PAINE. It has been more recently moved over.
Agent HOWLETT. It's actually 1 foot 9 inches.
Mr. JENNER. Rather than 2 feet by 2 feet. Was that fan in place in the fall of 1963?
Mrs. PAINE. To the best of my recollection it was--yes.
Mr. JENNER. I take it, however, that that fan is a movable fan?
Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes.
Mr. JENNER. Which you can push up and slide over easily?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Are you able to do it yourself?
Mrs. PAINE. I never have.
Mr. JENNER. So, you don't know its heft or weight?
Mrs. PAINE. I can lift it from the floor, I know that about it, but I have never tried to lift it with my arms up.
Mr. JENNER. And is it a fan made for that particular spacing?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Or, is it really a floor fan that you sometimes use in your home itself and then sometimes place over that opening to draw the heat out, I guess it would be, wouldn't it?
Mrs. PAINE. It's a portable fan.
Mr. JENNER. It's a portable fan, and is it your recollection that on the morning of the 22d of November that fan straddled the opening in the ceiling?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall.
Mr. JENNER. You have no recollection one way or the other?
Mrs. PAINE. None.
Mr. JENNER. Since it is portable, it might have been moved back and, if moved back, the blanket wrapped package could have been stored up there, correct?
Mrs. PAINE. It could have been.
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Mr. JENNER. Did you enter that crawl space at any time in the fall of 1963?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. And, in particular, did you examine it on the afternoon of the 22d or any time on the 22d of November 1963?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I did not.
Mr. JENNER. When the police came here on the afternoon of November 22, did they climb up and look in the crawl space above the ceiling of your house?
Mrs. PAINE. I did not see anyone do that.
Mr. JENNER. I am only asking while you were present--while you were present, did the police look in the storage room we have now described?
Mrs. PAINE. To the best of my recollection they did.
Mr. JENNER. Now, the length of the garage extends from the Fifth Street side back to your dining room area, does it not?
Mrs. PAINE. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. And the width of the garage runs from the wall of the living room to the wall of the house on the west?
Mrs. PAINE. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. Now, would you please go out in the garage and in our presence put your foot in the spot--and the two places--that you noticed the blanket wrapped package, as you testified last week?
Mrs. PAINE. All right.
(At this point the witness, Mrs. Paine, complied with the request of Counsel Jenner.)
The blanket was lying approximately here from about here in front of the work bench, halfway to the band saw.
Mr. JENNER. Will you listen to me please: We are approximately in the center of the lengthwise plane of the garage and there is on the west wall a work bench. On the work bench is a drill, a South Bend drill, a heavy industrial type drill, with a number of packages, and then underneath the work bench is a small desk--is that a child's desk?
Mrs. PAINE. No; a student desk.
Mr. JENNER. And in the knee hole in the center of that desk on the left and right of which are sets of two drawers is what; what is that?
Mrs. PAINE. That's an ice chest.
Mr. JENNER. Was that ice chest there on the 22d of November?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Is the desk underneath the work bench and is the work bench also--are all these things now in the position they were on November 22d?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And, are they in the position they were substantially from October 4, 1963, to and including November 22, 1963?
Mrs. PAINE. They are in the same position.
Mr. JENNER. The work bench I have described is at its top 8 feet 1 inch in length and 2 feet 3 inches wide or deep, extending out from the west wall into the garage. It's a good substantial work bench, though it is piled high with various boxes and cartons. Is the top of the work bench in approximately the same condition now as it was on November 22, 1963, Mrs. Paine?
Mrs. PAINE A little fuller.
Mr. JENNER. And is it in approximately, in that respect, the condition it was from October 4, 1963, to and including November 22, 1963?
Mrs. PAINE Yes.
Mr. JENNER. I will now measure the distance east and west from the outside leading edge of the work bench to the east wall of the garage.
Agent HOWLETT. It's 7 feet 9 inches.
Mr. JENNER. The south edge of the work bench is 8 feet 5 inches from the inner side of the overhead garage door, which is now in place.
There is a band saw to the south of the work bench also against the west wall of the garage. It stands--it looks like a pretty solid piece of equipment and it stands 5 feet 7 inches high from the floor and the band saw, Mrs. Paine, is a solid piece of equipment--metal, that is, resting on the garage floor itself, is it not?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is.
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Mr. JENNER. And it is, John Joe, how wide a space?
Agent HOWLETT. One foot five inches.
Mr. JENNER. It's a powermatic band saw that has an identification plate "Machinery Sales" and the like on it.
The distance from the south edge of the bench to the north edge of the band saw is what, John Joe?
Agent HOWLETT. Two feet eight inches.
Mr. JENNER. Would you measure off 45 inches on that--we have taken a piece of corrugated box board, measured off 45 inches in length, and I will ask Mrs. Paine to take that piece of corrugated box box and place it in the position which the blanket-wrapped package was.
Mrs. PAINE. That's it.
(At this point the witness, Mrs. Paine, complied with the request of Counsel Jenner.)
Mr. JENNER. Now, may I describe for the record, Mrs. Paine has placed that 45-inch corrugated box board, in the position she recalls it was when you first saw it, Mrs. Paine?
Mrs. PAINE. No; that's the second time it's where it was on November 22.
Mr. JENNER. This is where it was on November 22d and one end is how many inches from the base of the band saw, Mr. Howlett?
Agent HOWLETT. It's 8 feet from the base of the band saw.
Mr. JENNER. Is that correct, Mrs. Paine?
Mrs. PAINE. As I recall--yes.
Mr. JENNER. And it extends in a northerly direction 45 inches and ends up how many inches north of the south edge of the work bench, Mr. Howlett?
Agent HOWLETT. One foot eight inches.
Mr. JENNER. And Mrs. Paine has placed that, is that correct, Mrs. Paine?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I'm not sure but it wasn't somewhat more to the north. My recollection is not that clear.
Mr. JENNER. But have you placed it approximately as you can best recall, and that is all we can ask you to do now?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. How many inches is it out from Mr. Howlett, the front of the desk underneath the work bench?
Agent HOWLETT. The center of it is about 3 1/2 inches.
Mr. JENNER. Don't get the center, because the package was wider than that piece is.
Mrs. PAINE. I'll place it where where the outside edge is--where the outside edge of the package was.
Agent HOWLETT. The inside edge?
Mr. JENNER. Which do you say is inside?
Mrs. PAINE. Let me take more packages--I'm trying to refresh my memory as to where this was. I do recall standing on it, and whether it was when I stood here or here?
Mr. JENNER. When she says, "Here," she is standing, are you not, Mrs. Paine, facing north with your hand on the southeast corner of the work bench?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you are standing rather near to the work bench?
Mrs. PAINE. I'm trying to recall where I saw it on the 22d, but anyway, that would be the width of the package between those two boards.
Mr. JENNER. What is the distance from the bottom of the desk underneath the work bench to the nearest edge of the package?
Agent HOWLETT. Four and one-half inches.
Mr. JENNER. And the distance from the bottom of the desk to the outside edge, or most easterly edge of the package?
Agent HOWLETT. One foot two and one-half inches.
Mr. JENNER. Now, did I ask you, and I just want to make certain, when was it that you observed the blanket-wrapped package on the floor the second time?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, I recall the package was on the floor on the 22d, and that it was not the first time I had seen it there, but I cannot answer just when I first saw it in that position--I don't recall.
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Mr. JENNER. Your testimony was, as I recall, that to the best of your recollection the blanket-wrapped package occurred in two places in the garage.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. When you noticed it at any time from the 4th of October to and including the 22d of November 1963?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you have now located it as where you saw it--it will be better for you to tell us where it was located when you first noticed it.
Mrs. PAINE. My best recollection is--I first noticed it somewhere in the vicinity of the rotary saw.
Mr. JENNER. Now, we have a rotary saw which is pushed up against the east wall of the garage and is located really, on that wall, but between the south edge of the work bench and the north edge of the band saw; am I correct about that?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; that's correct.
Mr. JENNER. And it is a Craftsman saw--it is also a substantial piece of equipment. The saw plane or table is how long?
Agent HOWLETT. Three feet four inches.
Mr. JENNER. And how wide?
Agent HOWLETT. One foot nine and one-half inches.
Mr. JENNER. And that stands how many feet from the wall, Mr. Howlett?
Agent HOWLETT. The saw table is 3 feet 2 1/2 inches.
Mr. JENNER. And the distance from the floor to the top of the saw itself, that is, all of the saw instrument itself?
Agent HOWLETT. It is 4 feet 7 inches.
Mr. JENNER. And what is the distance of extension of the saw table, measuring from the east wall of the garage to the westerly most portion of the saw table?
Agent HOWLETT. It is 2 feet 7 1/2 inches.
Mr. JENNER. Have I located that saw, Mrs. Paine, in your presence so that the locations I have given are as you have observed accurate?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. The south edge of the saw table is how many feet and inches, Mr. Howlett, from the inside facing of the overhead garage door, which is down in place?
Agent HOWLETT. It is 5 feet 6 inches.
Mr. JENNER. Now, Mrs. Paine, would you please locate--take the 45-inch package and relocate it where you first saw it?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't think there is any point in my doing that---I can't remember whether it went east or west or north or south.
Mr. JENNER. Well, regardless of how it was facing, whether east or west or north or south, where was it when you saw it?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, I can recall distinctly that the area between the saw table and the two chests of drawers was filled with boxes of belongings of things that belonged to Lee and Marina Oswald. The package was either under the saw table or out in front of those boxes some way.
Mr. JENNER. Now, I will locate the things you have described.
The saw table, the height of which has been stated into the record, is suspended from the floor by 2 by 4 braces, which angle from the east wall of the garage up to the underside west end of the circular saw table, and except for those two braces running up from the floor and the saw to the underside of the circular saw table, there is nothing underneath there.
Was that the condition in which that space was when you noticed the package on the floor earlier--the first time?
Mrs. PAINE. To the best of my recollection it was for the most part--it was.
Mr. JENNER. The witness has mentioned two--what do you call those?
Mrs. PAINE. Chest of drawers.
Mr. JENNER. They are located 1 foot 6 inches south of the south edge of the saw table. They are themselves how wide?
Agent HOWLETT. Two feet one inch.
Mr. JENNER. They are 2 feet 1 inch wide and extend out from the joist of the garage wall on the east garage wall how many feet, Mr. Howlett?
Agent HOWLETT. Two feet five inches.
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Mr. JENNER. The south edge of the set of chests, did you say these were?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. The south edge of the set of chest of drawers is 2 feet 1 inch to the inside portion of the overhead garage door, which is in place. Now, would you with that description again state where the package was when you first saw it, first was the space you said was filled with the goods and wares of the Oswalds located in the space between the south edge of the saw table and the north edge of the chest of drawers?
Mrs. PAINE. With some overlapping of the area of the saw table.
Mr. JENNER. With that in mind, tell us where the blanket-wrapped package was.
Mrs. PAINE. I do not have a distinct recollection of where it lay on the floor.
Mr. JENNER. Locate it the best you can.
Mrs. PAINE. To the best of my recollection it was partially under the saw table or out towards the front of their boxes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see the blanket-wrapped package upended in your garage?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. I notice a ball of string which I have just taken from a box, which is on the surface of the work bench.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You have testified that the blanket-wrapped package was in turn tied or wrapped with string?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You think perhaps, around in four places?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Was the string of the weight and character of that which I have in my hand, that is, this ball of string?
Mrs. PAINE. It could have been that weight or it could have been as heavy as this other short piece that's on the floor.
Mr. JENNER. The short piece which Mrs. Paine has picked up and has exhibited to me, we will mark "Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 270," and we will cut a piece of the other twine or string and mark that as "Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 271."
(Materials referred to marked by the reporter as "Ruth Paine Exhibits Nos. 270 and 271," for identification.)
Mr. JENNER. For the purpose of the record, Mrs. Paine, and John Joe, Exhibit No. 271 is the lighter and thinner of the two pieces of string which the witness has identified, is it not?
Agent HOWLETT. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. I will state, and will everybody agree with me or disagree with me, if I misstate the facts that it would be utterly impossible to get an automobile into this garage in the condition that it is now, is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE. It would be utterly impossible.
Mr. JENNER. And, is its condition now in that sense substantially the same as it was on October 4 and from thence forward through November 22, 1963, Mrs. Paine?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is.
Mr. JENNER. Now, as I understand it, Mrs. Paine, you, Marina, and the policeman came out into this garage on the afternoon of November 22?
Mrs. PAINE. That's right?
Mr. JENNER. Did you lead the procession into the garage, or did Marina, or someone with the policeman?
Mrs. PAINE. I recall saying that most of the Oswalds' things were in the garage, and I don't recall whether it was a policeman or myself who first entered.
I would guess it had been myself.
Mr. JENNER. Had there been some conversation before you entered the garage on the subject of whether Lee Oswald had a rifle and was there a rifle located in the home?
Mrs. PAINE. There was no such discussion before we entered the garage.
Mr. JENNER. What was the purpose of your entering the garage on that occasion and the circumstance as to why you entered the garage with the police, and I take it Marina was with you, was she?
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Mrs. PAINE. Marina followed. They had asked to search--I told them that most of the Oswalds' things were in the garage and some were in the room where Marina was staying.
Mr. JENNER. Now, trying to reconstruct this situation and to stimulate your recollection, would you walk into the garage and tell us as you walk in, what occurred and when the first conversation took place, if any took place, about a weapon in the premises? Would you start back here at the garage entrance?
(At this point the witness complied with the request of Counsel Jenner, entering the garage.)
Mr. JENNER. I take it, Mrs. Paine, you and Marina, and how many policemen were there?
Mrs. PAINE. Two or three.
Mr. JENNER. Two or three policemen walked into your garage?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And for what purpose?
Mrs. PAINE. To see what was in it.
Mr. JENNER. Well, for you to point out to them where the Oswald things were in your garage?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you entered then and walked east toward the overhead garage door?
Mrs. PAINE. That's south instead of east.
Mr. JENNER That's south, I'm sorry; you are right.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Was that garage door in place on that occasion?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it was.
Mr. JENNER. The four or five of you, depending on how many policemen there were, walked to the place that you have now heretofore described to us as where the Oswalds' things were located in the main part, however, the blanket wrapped package was not at that----
Mrs. PAINE [interrupting]. We didn't get as far as the area where most of the Oswald things were located.
Mr. JENNER. All right. You got about what--halfway into the garage facing south?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Then, what happened?
Mrs. PAINE. Then, one of the officers asked me if Lee Oswald had a rifle or weapon, and I said, "No."
Mr. JENNER. This was in the presence of Marina?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you were then--at that point you were standing where?
Mrs. PAINE. I was at that time standing here [indicating].
Mr. JENNER. And would you remain there--Mrs. Paine is now standing at the corner of the--southeast corner of the work bench about a foot away from the work bench; is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Go ahead.
Mrs. PAINE. The officer asked me if Oswald had a rifle and I answered, "No," to him and he turned to Marina who was standing at the----
Mr. JENNER. Now, would you move to where Marina was standing?
Mrs. PAINE. Right here in the middle of this----
Mr. JENNER. I'll get that out of your way----
Mrs. PAINE. Let's just move that across there. She was standing here facing south.
Mr. JENNER. She was facing you?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; she was.
Mr. JENNER. And the witness is now about a foot in from the north end of the work bench and to, necessarily, the east work bench.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. She was standing there facing and looking at you?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; she was.
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Mr. JENNER. And you in turn--your back was to the overhead garage door, which was in place?
Mrs. PAINE. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. And you were facing north?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes--I translated the question, asking Marina if she knew if Lee had a rifle, and she said, "Yes"--she had seen some time previously--seen a rifle which she knew to be his in this roll, which she indicated the blanket roll.
Mr. JENNER. When she said that, did she point to the blanket roll?
Mrs. PAINE. She indicated to me in her language. My best recollection is that she did not point, so that I was the one who knew and then translated.
Mr. JENNER. Now, she said she had seen a rifle in the blanket wrapped package?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Which you had, already noticed some time prior thereto?
Mrs. PAINE. And as she described this, I stepped onto the blanket.
Mr. JENNER. The wrapped package?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; and then translated to the police officers what she had said.
Mr. JENNER. And when you stepped on the blanket wrapped package, did you feel anything hard?
Mrs. PAINE. It seemed to me there was something hard in it.
Mr. JENNER. At that time when you stepped on it?
Mrs. PAINE. At that time.
Mr. JENNER. Did it seem like something hard in the sense of a rifle or a tent pole or anything as bulky as that?
Mrs. PAINE. I think I would say nothing as irregular as a rifle.
Mr. JENNER. In any event, as I recall your testimony, one of the policemen stooped down and picked up the blanket wrapped package about in its center, having in mind its length?
Mrs. PAINE. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. And when he did that, did the blanket remain firm and horizontal?
Mrs. PAINE. It wilted.
Mr. JENNER. It drooped?
Mrs. PAINE. It folded.
Mr. JENNER. It just folded, and from that you concluded there was nothing in the package?
Mrs. PAINE. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. In the blanket?
Mrs. PAINE. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. Is it your recollection that the four string wrappings were still on the blanket?
Mrs. PAINE. That's my recollection.
Mr. JENNER. And you heard no crinkling of paper or otherwise?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I didn't.
Mr. JENNER. Now, Mrs. Paine, you testified last week before the Commission that you keep a supply of wrapping paper?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Where do you normally keep it?
Mrs. PAINE. (At this point the witness, Mrs. Paine, left the area of garage and returned to the kitchen-dining room area.) I keep it as I explained at the Commission hearings, in the bottom drawer of a large secretary desk in the dining area.
Mr. JENNER. And you have just leaned down and taken a tube of what looks like wrapping paper from that drawer, have you not?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I have.
Mr. JENNER. And, is that the remains of the tube of wrapping paper that you had in your home on November 22, 1963?
Mrs. PAINE. No, this is a new one, similar to the old one.
Mr. JENNER. Did you purchase it at the same place that you purchased the previous wrapping paper?
Mrs. PAINE. I purchased the rolls at some dime store.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Howlett, would you measure that wrapping paper?
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Agent HOWLETT. It is 2 feet 6 inches.
Mr. JENNER. Now, would I have your permission to take about a yard of this?
Mrs. PAINE. Take all you want.
Mr. JENNER. I would like to take enough of it so I will get a sheet that is longer than it is wide. What did you say it was wide?
Agent HOWLETT. Two feet 6 inches.
Mr. JENNER. All right, would you hold one end of that, Mr. Howlett, please. We will now measure this.
Agent HOWLETT. That is 3 feet 1 inch.
Mr. JENNER. And now, Mrs. Paine, do you have a scissors, and would you please cut this?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I do.
(At this point the witness, Mrs. Paine, cut the paper referred to.)
Mr. JENNER. We will mark the sheet of wrapping paper which we have just cut from a roll of wrapping paper as "Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 272." Would you mark that, please, Miss Reporter?
(At this point the reporter marked the paper referred to as "Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 272," for identification.)
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, all I have to say is that this paper is startlingly like the wrapping paper that I exhibited to you in the Commission hearing last week.
Mrs. PAINE. It is wrapping paper for mailing books and other such articles.
Mr. JENNER. It is a good weight. You have, I notice, now in your hand, some sealing tape or paper sticky tape, am I correct?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. From where did you obtain that?
Mrs. PAINE. From the same bottom drawer.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have a supply of that sticky tape in your home on November 22, 1963?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; this is the remainder of that.
Mr. JENNER. This is the remainder of a roll you had at that time?
Mrs. PAINE. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. Would you cut a slip of that for us?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Off the record.
Miss Reporter, would you mark the strip of sticky tape I now hand you as "Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 273"?
(Paper referred to marked by the reporter as "Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 273," for identification.)
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, you now have that bottom drawer of your desk secretary open, and I see the remains of a ball of string.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Two balls of string, one dark brown string and one white string?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. As I recall your testimony with respect to the wrappings on this package the string was white string and not the dark brown string?
Mrs. PAINE. That's my recollection.
Mr. JENNER. Does your now seeing the remains of the additional string you have uncovered from the bottom drawer of your secretary serve to refresh your recollection, even further, as to whether that was about the weight of the string on the blanket wrapped package?
Mrs. PAINE. It looks rather thin to me, rather thinner than the string on the package, sir.
Mr. JENNER. All right. We will take a sample of that, and that will be marked "Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 274."
(String referred to marked by the reporter as "Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 274," for identification.)
Mr. JENNER. You also have something that is really rope in your hand now.
Did you obtain that from that drawer?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did.
Mr. JENNER. Would you say that was too heavy or heavier?
Mrs. PAINE. I would say it is heavier; yes.
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Mr. JENNER. All right, we will not bother with that in the record.
Mrs. Paine, you recall your testimony with respect to what I called the Mexico note.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. I forget the Commission exhibit number, but that will identify it. It is a note you found one Sunday morning.
Mrs. PAINE. That's right--having already noticed it but not having read it the previous day.
Mr. JENNER. And, is this the secretary to which you made reference, the desk secretary--the piece of furniture from which you have obtained the wrapping paper, the sticky paper, and the string I latterly described?
Mrs. PAINE. No; it is not.
Mr. JENNER. Where is that desk secretary located?
Mrs. PAINE. That desk secretary is in the living room.
Mr. JENNER. Is the desk secretary in the position now as it was on that Sunday morning?
Mrs. PAINE. No; it is not.
Mr. JENNER. Would you locate in your living room where that desk secretary was, if it is not here?
Mrs. PAINE. It was in the middle of the space between the the middle of the north wall of the living room.
Mr. JENNER. Now, the north wall of the living room presently has a sofa or a couch?
Mrs. PAINE. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. I take it, therefore, that sofa or couch was not in that position?
Mrs. PAINE. That sofa has exchanged places with the small desk secretary.
Mr. JENNER. And the desk secretary is now on the east wall of your living room; is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. Please tell me where the television set was on the afternoon of the day--on the afternoon of November the 22d when the police called at your home?
Mrs. PAINE. It was then where it is now.
Mr. JENNER. And it is now located against the south wall of the living room between the picture window facing on Fifth Street and the doorway entering into your home?
Mrs. PAINE. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. Now, you testified as I recall, that you and Marina were sitting on the sofa looking at television. Where was the sofa located at that time?
Mrs. PAINE. On the 22d, the sofa was where it is now, as is true of all the other furniture in the room.
Mr. JENNER. So, that, therefore, I conclude that from the time on the Sunday morning that you looked at the Mexico note and made a copy of it and November 22, you had rearranged your furniture?
Mrs. PAINE I rearranged it on the evening of the 10th of November--that same day that I read the note.
Mr. JENNER. That was a Sunday?
Mrs. PAINE. That was.
Mr. JENNER. And Lee Oswald and your husband, Michael, assisted you?
Mrs. PAINE. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. As I recall your testimony was that before they began to move the furniture at your request you saw the Mexico note on top of the secretary and you put it in one of the drawers of the secretary?
Mrs. PAINE. I opened the flip front and put it in there.
Mr. JENNER. Consequently, on the afternoon of November 22, 1963, when you were looking at television, you and Marina were facing out--facing toward Fifth Street?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Were the drapes on your picture window which I see on the south wall, drawn back?
Mrs. PAINE. They were not closed.
Mr. JENNER They were not closed?
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Mrs. PAINE. They were covering perhaps a foot of the window on each side.
Mr. JENNER. Were you so intent, you and Marina, from looking at the television that you did not notice the police come in to your door?
Mrs. PAINE. I think we could not have seen them coming to the door.
Mr. JENNER. Why not?
Mrs. PAINE. We were sitting here. I was in the middle of the sofa and, Marina was to the west.
Mr. JENNER. She was to your right?
Mrs. PAINE. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. And you say you could not have seen them?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, there were several times--I don't----
Mr. JENNER. Well, at the instant of time they came, had you noticed them coming?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I had not.
Mr. JENNER. You say you could not have seen them because, I take it [at this time Counsel Jenner with the assistance of the witness, Mrs. Paine, drew the living room drapes so that they no longer covered the living room windows]--because they approached the house from the driveway side, which is on the west?
Mrs. PAINE. Right, and as I recall, both of the cars that came in were parked to the west of my driveway.
Mr. JENNER. So, they would have come at an angle, which assuming the door was closed----
Mrs. PAINE. As it was.
Mr. JENNER. The door opening onto Fifth Street?
Mrs. PAINE. The door was closed.
Mr. JENNER. May the record show, and I will ask Mr. Howlett if he agrees, that under those circumstances, with the officers approaching from the west, that the ladies sitting on the sofa or couch could not have seen them as they approached from the west?
Agent HOWLETT. No.
Mr. JENNER. So, the first time, I gather you were aware that the police had arrived or come, was when the doorbell rang or they knocked on the door?
Mrs. PAINE. The bell rang and I was first aware of them when I opened the door.
Mr. JENNER. Now, we will get you, Odell, to come in here.
(At this point the reporter proceeded to the point designated by Counsel Jenner.)
Mr. JENNER. I will proceed to describe here your lawn and if you, John Joe, will come out and check me on it and will you stand in the doorway, Mrs. Paine, and would you check me, Mrs. Paine, as I recite these facts?
Mrs. PAINE. All right.
(At this point the persons heretofore mentioned assumed the places designated by Counsel Jenner.)
Mr. JENNER. That your home is well set back, we'll measure it in a moment, from the street, and it is a rather generous lawn with some bushes, the bushes are not solid as a screen, but they are up close to your home. The lawn area is entirely open except for the oak tree which I have heretofore described as being as a large generous shade tree about 2 feet in diameter. We will measure the circumference in a moment. John Joe, could we measure the distance from the south wall of the home to the sidewalk?
Agent HOWLETT. There is no sidewalk--there is a curb.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; there is.
Agent HOWLETT. 42 feet.
Mr. JENNER. Will you come in, John, and recite in the presence of the reporter what that distance is?
The REPORTER. I have it in the record from his statement 42 feet.
Mr. JENNER. There is a roof or canopy over the porch entrance, the depth of which from the south wall to the south edge of the roof area is what, Mr. Howlett, to the south edge of the roofed area?
Agent HOWLETT. It would be 11 feet.
Mr. JENNER. And it is how wide from east to west?
Agent HOWLETT. Seven feet three inches.
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Mr. JENNER. Now, is it not true that except for the porch canopy we have just measured, that the entire front lawn is open?
Mrs. PAINE That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And unobstructed except for the tree?
Mrs. PAINE That's right.
Mr. JENNER. Now, in your testimony you stated that on the late afternoon of November 21 when you came home, you approached your home from what direction?
Mrs. PAINE. From the east.
Mr. JENNER. From the east and so you were driving west?
Mrs. PAINE. I was.
Mr. JENNER. And is it not true, as I look facing east now, I can see some considerable distance of a good block down the street?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And I am standing at the doorway entrance to your home?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. About where you were when you first noticed to your surprise as I recall your testimony, that Lee Oswald was on the premises?
Mrs. PAINE. To the best of my recollection, I had just entered this block--that's across Westbrook.
Mr. JENNER. Across the cross street which is to the east of your home, which is named Westbrook?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And that's how far?
Mrs. PAINE. Three houses down.
Mr. JENNER. Three homes down, and out on the lawn was Marina and June, their child?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Then Rachel, I assume, was in her crib or somewhere in the house.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. But she was not out on the lawn?
Mrs. PAINE. She was not out on the lawn.
Mr. JENNER. You pulled up in the driveway?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, Mrs. Paine, off the record, I would like to go into that a little bit.
(Discussion between Counsel Jenner and the witness Mrs. Paine off the record at this point.)
Mr. JENNER. All right. On the record. You came home that evening, you sighted your home and saw Lee Oswald out on the lawn, the front lawn, late in the afternoon of November 21, 1963, and you swung--you came to your home, pulled up in your driveway as is your usual custom and parked your car?
Mrs. PAINE. That's right
Mr. JENNER. Had Lee Oswald noticed you then as you pulled in the driveway?
Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes.
Mr. JENNER. And did he come over to your automobile?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall.
Mr. JENNER. Did you greet him in any fashion?
Mrs. PAINE. My best recollection is I was already out of the automobile when we actually exchanged greetings.
Mr. JENNER. And did you express surprise that he was home that evening?
Mrs. PAINE. I did not express it.
Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything indicating he knew he was there by surprise or at least unexpectedly?
Mrs. PAINE. No; he did not.
Mr. JENNER. Did he do so at any time during the course of the evening?
Mrs. PAINE. No; he did not.
Mr. JENNER. Did Marina?
Mrs. PAINE. She expressed surprise to me, yes; and apologized.
Mr. JENNER. Apology for what?
Mrs. PAINE. For his having come without asking if he could.
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Mr. JENNER. What was your impression as to whether she was surprised?
Mrs. PAINE. My impression is she was surprised.
Mr. JENNER. Did she say so?
Mrs. PAINE. Not specifically.
Mr. JENNER. Did she say she had not expected him?
Mrs. PAINE. That's the feeling I gathered.
Mr. JENNER. Well, from her facial expression, her mannerisms, her attitude--you had the very definite impression that his arrival was unexpected as far as she was concerned?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. As well as yours?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Now, as I recall your testimony, you entered the garage that evening--you don't know how many times--you do have an icebox or deep freeze in the garage, do you not?
Mrs. PAINE. It's a deep freeze.
Mr. JENNER. And is it not a fact that the deep freeze is located right up against the wall separating the garage from the dining room portion of the kitchen-dining room area, is that not correct, Mrs. Paine?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And that deep freeze, John Joe, is what in length?
Agent HOWLETT. Three feet four inches.
Mr. JENNER. And that length extends southwesterly from the garage dining room wall toward Fifth Street; correct?
Agent HOWLETT. Correct.
Mr. JENNER. And the deep freeze is how deep?
Agent HOWLETT. It is two feet six inches deep.
Mr. JENNER. And the deepness extends from the door jam, west edge of the door jam, westerly; is that correct?
Agent HOWLETT. Yes; to the wall.
Mr. JENNER. And how high is the deep freeze?
Agent HOWLETT. The deep freeze stands 3 feet 3 inches tall.
Mr. JENNER. And Mrs. Paine, is that deep freeze the type of deep freeze that you uncover from the top, that is, the lid opens?
Agent HOWLETT. That's right.
Mrs. PAINE. It is known as a chest style.
Mr. JENNER. In preparing dinner, or even after dinner, your present recollection is--since it is so much your habit---you can't remember the number of times--it is your present recollection that in the ordinary course of attending to your home and preparing a meal that evening you would enter the garage at least going into some part of the deep freeze?
Mrs. PAINE. I think it highly probable.
Mr. JENNER. Did you prepare the meal that evening?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you do anything else that evening in the garage?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. What did you do?
Mrs. PAINE. I lacquered two large box blocks.
Mr. JENNER. Would you obtain, if you can, from the box of blocks which I notice now in your living room, the two blocks you lacquered?
Mrs. PAINE. This is one.
Mr. JENNER. You say you lacquered two boxes or two blocks?
Mrs. PAINE. It's the same thing, yes.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine has produced still another thing, and I take it, Mrs. Paine, that you meant two boxes?
Mrs. PAINE. I considered them blocks, but they do have the shape of a box. They are what I call a large hollow block.
Mr. JENNER. They in turn are processed in building to be solid blocks?
Mrs. PAINE. That's all right. I describe them as--they are sets anything a child wishes to make it into for play.
Mr. JENNER. One of them right now in your living room contains wooden blocks, does it not?
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Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And the other is empty?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. John Joe, will you measure that which Mrs. Paine describes as a block and which I describe as a box?
Agent HOWLETT. It is 1/4 inch wide by 2 feet long.
Mr. JENNER. How deep?
Agent HOWLETT. It is 7 1/2 inches deep, with 1/2 inch press plywood on the bottom, makes it a total height of 8 inches.
Mr. JENNER. John Joe, is that which Mrs. Paine calls a block and I call a box, rectangular--it has a bottom, or at least it has a plate on one side and it is open on the top of it--the opposite side---is that not correct?
Agent HOWLETT. It is open on the top, yes. It is closed on the five sides and open on the top.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, just so we don't have any confusion in the record, is my description of this as being a box a fair description?
Mrs. PAINE. I will adopt it for our usage, for usage here.
Mr. JENNER. You are setting apart your sensitivity about blocks here?
Mrs. PAINE. That's quite all right--I will call it a box.
Mr. JENNER. And those two boxes or containers, you lacquered these that evening?
Mrs. PAINE. That evening.
Mr. JENNER. How long did that take you?
Mrs. PAINE. About half an hour.
Mr. JENNER. And where were you working?
Mrs. PAINE. I was using the top of the deep freeze as a work space. I had to walk from there to the work bench to get the lacquer and the brush.
Mr. JENNER. Which end of the work bench, the south or the north end?
Mrs. PAINE. The north end.
Mr. JENNER. Now, what time of the evening, and I take it it was the evening, am I correct?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, sir; it was.
Mr. JENNER. What time of the evening was it, approximately, when you entered the garage to lacquer the two boxes?
Mrs. PAINE. It was 9 o'clock or a little bit after.
Mr. JENNER. Were the two boxes inside your home, and did you take them into the garage, or were they in the garage when you prepared to lacquer them?
Mrs. PAINE. My best recollection is that one was in the house and one was in the garage.
Mr. JENNER. Well, where was the one in the garage located when you went into the garage to lacquer?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall.
Mr. JENNER. It was not on top of the deep freeze, was it?
Mrs. PAINE. No; it's very likely it was in the central area.
Mr. JENNER. Somewhere near the blanket wrapped package?
Mrs. PAINE. Somewhat near the saw.
Mr. JENNER. The circular saw or the band saw?
Mrs. PAINE. The circular saw, I think, but I don't recall specifically.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, when you did open the garage, the entrance to the garage----
Mrs. PAINE. You mean the overhead door?
Mr. JENNER. No; the regular door into the garage.
Mrs. PAINE. Oh--that--yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER, Without offending you, Mrs. Paine, I assume that that door to the garage is normally--you are careful to keep it closed?
Mrs. PAINE. I am, indeed.
Mr. JENNER. To the best of your recollection it was closed on this particular occasion?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, it was.
Mr. JENNER. You opened the door, did you?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
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Mr. JENNER. What was the first thing that arrested your attention when you opened the door, if anything?
Mrs. PAINE. I was arrested by the fact that the light was on.
Mr. JENNER The light where?
Mrs. PAINE. In the garage.
Mr. JENNER. The overhead light?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. That headlight is approximately in the center of the ceiling of the garage, is it not?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, I believe it is.
Agent HOWLETT. It may be slightly to the center.
Mr. JENNER. It is roughly to the center and the socket instrument looks like a porcelain socket that extends out from the ceiling and hangs downwardly, as a matter of fact, perpendicular to the floor or the ceiling; is that not right?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. That bulb that's in there now, Mrs. Paine, was that bulb in place on the night in question?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, I believe so.
Mr. JENNER. And the ceiling fixture is unshaded, is it not?
Mrs. PAINE. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. So, that, the bulb itself is bright and glaring?
Mrs. PAINE. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. John Joe, would you take a look at that bulb and see what watt it is?
Agent HOWLETT. It is a 100-watt bulb, I just looked at it.
Mr. JENNER. And it is quite bright, is it not?
Agent HOWLETT. Yes, sir; especially with the white reflection off of the white walls.
Mr. JENNER. Oh, yes; this garage is painted white, is it not?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER The garage door is a medium shade of grey, and when I say "garage door" I mean the overhead door, which is now in place, the inside facing, which I see from this doorway?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You noticed that the light was on?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER Why was that something that drew your attention?
Mrs. PAINE. I knew that I had not left it on.
Mr. JENNER. Had you had any habit in that respect?
Mrs. PAINE. It's my habit to turn the light off.
Mr. JENNER. And frugality, if not appearance, had dictated you in that direction, had it?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, more appearance than frugality.
Mr. JENNER. And had Marina come to be aware of your habit? In that direction, that is, of seeing that the light was off when you weren't using the garage?
Mrs. PAINE. I would suppose so.
Mr. JENNER Is that your best present impression, Mrs. Paine?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. I believe you testified that it was your opinion that at that time that it had not been Marina who had left the light on?
Mrs. PAINE. That's right--it was definitely not Marina at that time.
Mr. JENNER. But it was who--had left the light on?
Mrs. PAINE. That Lee had left the light on.
Mr. JENNER. From that, you concluded that he had what?
Mrs. PAINE. Been in the garage.
Mr. JENNER. Prior to the time you entered the garage around 9 o'clock that evening. Had it come to your attention in any manner or fashion that he had been in the garage earlier in the evening, I mean, apart from this particular circumstance you have now related?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't know how long he had been out of it when I went in and
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found the light on. It is my impression he had been in it some time between the dinner hour and the time I entered.
Mr. JENNER. Now, sitting as I am, in the dining room area of your kitchen dining room space--even if, as you have testified was the fact, that either you alone or you and Marina were washing the dishes and cleaning up at least after dinner, it would have been virtually impossible, wouldn't it, for anybody to have entered the garage without your noticing it, that is, entering from the kitchen-dining room area?
Mrs. PAINE. I would think so.
Mr. JENNER. And, would that not be especially true if you were in the dining room portion of the kitchen-dining room area?
Mrs. PAINE. That would be unquestionably true---if you were in the kitchen-dining area at all.
Mr. JENNER. But you were not, I gather, at all times that evening up to 9 o'clock, in the kitchen-dining room area; is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE. I was in the kitchen-dining area part of the time, occasionally, I would say.
Mr. JENNER. Were your children retired when you went into the garage, at the time you went into the garage to lacquer your boxes?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, they were.
Mr. JENNER. Had you put them to bed that evening?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, I had spent probably close to an hour in bed preparations.
Mr. JENNER. Now, during that period of time, Lee Oswald could have been in your garage without your knowing it?
Mrs. PAINE. I think it's likely--it would have been likely that I would know it then too.
Mr. JENNER. Well, how would you have known it if you were in that bedroom which is in the northeast corner, which is as we have measured quite a good distance from the entrance to the garage? How could you necessarily have known it--that's the point I am making.
Mrs. PAINE. I could not necessarily have seen him enter. If I was fully in the room, my going to bed activities include being in the bathroom, coming into the kitchen, and going into the, living room.
Mr. JENNER. Moving in and out?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And I think I asked you during your testimony before the Commission--were you conscious during the period up to 9 o'clock that evening that Lee Oswald had been in the garage?
Mrs. PAINE. It is my--I recall the definite feeling that he had been in the garage. I can't recall seeing him go in.
Mr. JENNER. Now, the police picked up some books, did they not, and other papers and things of which you were not aware at the time, you weren't present when they did that, is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE. Most of what they took I did not see.
Mr. JENNER. I direct your attention to pages 144 to 147, inclusive, of a volume which has a paster on its front cover reading, "Affidavits and statements taken in connection with the assassination of the President," which I will state for the record was furnished me by the Dallas police this afternoon. Pages 144 through 147 are headed, "Literature" as having been found by the Dallas police either in the home of Mrs. Paine here in Irving, or in Lee Oswald's quarters on Beckley Street in Dallas.
Would you please examine that list, Mrs. Paine, and you will notice each page is headed "Name" and then the item is sought to be described, whether a letter, a book, an application, a pamphlet or a booklet, as the case might be.
The second column is headed "place found" and underneath that appears either the word "Irving" or the word "Beckley"?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And there is a third column, headed "Microfilm," which indicates that the police has microfilmed each item and they give the microfilm number?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
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Mr. JENNER. Now, would you go through that list and arrest our attention to any item which had come to your attention prior to November 22, 1963?
Mrs. PAINE. [Examining instruments referred to.] I do not think I see anything that I had seen or have since seen.
Mr. JENNER. You have looked only on page 144.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I am sorry.
Mr. JENNER. Take that card there and go down that way with it so you don't miss anything.
Mrs. PAINE. This is mine.
Mr. JENNER. All right. The witness has now pointed at page 146 to what is described as a magazine "Free World News." That's your own?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. It is a publication to which you subscribe?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; anyway, I receive it.
Mr. JENNER. And "Friends" mentioned there is what?
Mrs. PAINE. There it refers to Quakers.
Mr. JENNER. The Quakers of your faith?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't know whether that item is one I have seen or not, from the description--it is microfilm 198.
Mr. JENNER. You can't tell from the description whether that magazine, the cover of which is described, is one you have seen around?
Mrs. PAINE. I can't tell whether I've seen it or not.
Mr. JENNER. You don't know whether it's yours or was not yours?
Mrs. PAINE. That's right--I can't tell.
Mr. JENNER. Have you examined those pages 144 through 147, inclusive?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And the only item you found which is your property is the one we have picked out--you have picked out?
Mrs. PAINE. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. And is it also your testimony that having examined all those items which are listed as having been found by the police in your home in Irving, that you don't recall having seen any of those in your home?
Mrs. PAINE. I'm quite certain I did not see well, let's see, any of those with the possible exception of a newspaper from Minsk.
Magazine wrapper," I don't know whether that's it.
Mr. JENNER. Well, you can't tell from that description?
Mrs. PAINE. I can't tell from that--perhaps there was no such listing, but that's what I recall having seen.
Mr. JENNER. What do you recall having seen?
Mrs. PAINE. A newspaper from Minsk, but it doesn't appear to be listed.
Mr. JENNER. Yes, it is--just a moment. Let's go off the record here for a moment.
(Discussion between Counsel Jennet and the witness, Mrs. Paine, off the record.)
Mr. JENNER. I guess you are right--that was just a wrapper.
Now, I will ask that at this-place in the deposition the reporter copy pages 144, 145, 146, and 147, to which we have been referring.
LITERATURE
Name Place found Microfilm No.
Application, the Militant - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Irving - - - - - - - - 380
Application slip for FPCC - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Beckley - - - - - - - 416
Application slips for FPCC ( 187 ) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Irving - - - - - - - - 96
Booklet, "The Coming American Revolution," by James Irving - - - - - - - - 330
Cannon.
Booklet, "Continental Congress of Solidarity with Cuba, Irving - - - - - - - - 319
Brazil," by FPCC.
Booklet, "Cuban Counter Revolutionaries to the U.S," Irving - - - - - - - - 307
published by FPCC.
Booklet, Dobbs Weiss Campaign Committee, 116 University Irving - - - - - - - - 308
Pl., N.Y.C., entitled "Apamphlar."
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LITERATURE--Continued
Name Place found Microfilm No.
Booklet, "Fidel Castro Denounces Bureaucracy and Irving - - - - - - - - 304
Sectarianism."
Book, list of FPCC, N.Y.C - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Irving - - - - - - - - 329
Book, foreign language, 2 pages - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Irving - - - - - - - - 201
Book, foreign language, 2 pages - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Irving - - - - - - - - 202
Booklet, "Ideology and Revolution," by Jean Paul Sarte - - Irving - - - - - - - - 313
Booklet, list of Russian and Communist literatures Irving - - - - - - - - 309
publications.
Booklet, "The McCarran Act and the Right to Travel" - - Irving - - - - - - - - 311
Booklet, "The Nation," dated Jan. 23, 1960 - - - - - - - - - - - Irving - - - - - - - - 320
Booklet, "The Pact of Madrid," by the committed of Irving - - - - - - - - 310
Democratic Spain.
Book, Russian - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Irving - - - - - - - - 84
Books, Russian (18) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Irving - - - - - - - - 78-83
Book, Russian Language No. 732648. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Irving - - - - - - - - 112
Booklet, "Socialist Workers Party," by Josepth Hanson - - Irving - - - - - - - - 305
144
Name Place found Microfilm No.
Book, "Sofia," dated 1962 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Irving - - - - - - - - 324
Booklet, "Speech at the UN by Fidel Castro" - - - - - - - - - Irving - - - - - - - - 318
Book, "The Spy Who Loved Me," by Ian Fleming - - - - - Beckley - - - - - - - 410
Book, "Live and Let Die," by Ian Fleming - - - - - - - - - - - Beckley - - - - - - - 410
Book, "A Study of U.S.S.R. and Communism Historical," Beckley - - - - - - - 409
by Keiber and Nelson.
Book, "A Study of U.S.S.R. and Communism Historical" - Beckley - - - - - - - 409
Circulars, FPCC, Bill Jones Printing Go, New Orleans - - Beckley - - - - - - - 415
Handbill, FPCC, Lee H. Oswald, 4907 Magazine St., Irving - - - - - - - - 335
New Orleans.
Handbill FPCC, L. H. Oswald, 4907 Magazine St., Beckley - - - - - - - 414
New Orleans, La.
Handbills, "Hands Off Cuba" (178), Join the FPCC Irving - - - - - - - - 97
Handbills, "Hands Off Cuba" (180), Join the FPCC, Irving - - - - - - - - 300
New Orleans Branch.
Letter, from James J. Forney on letterhead of Gus Hall, Beckley - - - - - - - 405
Benjamin J. Davis, defense committee, N.Y.C., Dec. 13,
1962.
Letter, from Farrell Dobbs, National Secretary of So- Beckley - - - - - - - 401
ocialist Workers Party to Lee Oswald, Nov. 5, 1962.
Letter, signed "Gene," to "Dear Lee," from Jesuit House Beckley - - - - - - - 412
of Studies, Mobile, Ala., letterhead, Aug. 22, 1963.
Letter, from Jesuit House of Studies, Mobile, Ala., to Beckley - - - - - - - 430
Lee and Marie.
Letter, from Peter P. Gregory to Oswald, re: Ability to Beckley - - - - - - - 413
translate.
Letter, from Arnold Johnson, P.O. Box 30061, New Or- Beckley - - - - - - - 400
leans, to Oswald.
Letter, from Arnold Johnson, director, Information and Beckley - - - - - - - 406
Lecture Bureau CP, July 31, 1963, P.O. Box 30061,
New Orleans, to Oswald.
Letter, from V. T. Lee, national director of FPCC, N.Y., Beckley - - - - - - - 403
to Oswald, May 22, 1963.
Letter, from V. T. Lee, national director, FPCC, N.Y.C., Beckley - - - - - - - 407
to Oswald, 4907 Magazine, New Orleans.
145
Name Place found Microfilm No.
Letter, from Paul Piazza to Oswald, on Jesuit House Beckley - - - - - - - 429
420
Page 421
LITERATURE--Continued
Name Place found Microfilm No.
Letter, from Pioneer Publishers, April 26, 1963. - - - - - Irving - - - - - - - - 363
Letter, from Joseph Tack, Socialist Worker Party, to Beckley - - - - - - - 445
Oswald.
Letter, from Johnny Tackett, on Fort Worth Press Beckley - - - - - - - 438
letterhead, to Oswald.
Letter, from Louis Weinstock, general manager of the Beckley - - - - - - - 404
Worker, Dec. 19, 1962, to Oswald.
Magazine, "Friends Word News" - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Irving - - - - - - - - 87
Magazine, "The Militant" - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Irving - - - - - - - - 85
Magazine, "The New Republic," reprint from Sept. 12, Irving - - - - - - - - 322
1963.
Magazine, cover, group of men dressed in black stand- Irving - - - - - - - - 198
behind what appears to be a master of ceremonies
dressed in white.
Magazine, wrapper, addressed to Lee Oswald, Minsk, Irving - - - - - - - - 191
Russia.
Newspaper, "The Worker" - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Irving - - - - - - - - 86
Newspaper, clipping, re: the President. - - - - - - - - - - - Irving - - - - - - - - 120
Newspaper, clipping, New Orleans paper. - - - - - - - - - Irving - - - - - - - - 98
Newspaper, clipping, Fort Worth Press, showing photo Irving - - - - - - - - 270
of Iranian native, Mrs. John R. Hall.
Newspaper, clipping (Oswald defection and cartoon re- Beckley - - - - - - - 417
garding defectors ).
Newspaper, clipping (Times Picayune, New Orleans, Beckley - - - - - - - 413
re: Oswald's fine for disturbing peace. Sent from
room 329, 799 Broadway, N.Y.C.
Newspapers ( 7 ), Russian language - - - - - - - - - - - - - Irving - - - - - - - - 381
Newspaper, subscription forms (3), The Worker, with Irving - - - - - - - - 380
return envelopes to publishers News Press.
146
Name Place found Microfilm No.
Pamphlet, "The End of the Comintern," by James P. Irving - - - - - - - - 317
Cannon.
Pamphlets, "The Crime Against Cuba," Curliss Lamont Irving - - - - - - - - 303
Pamphlets, "The Crime Against Cuba," by Curliss Irving - - - - - - - - 99
Lamont.
Pamphlet, "The Revolution Must Be a School of Un- Irving - - - - - - - - 312
fettered Thought," by Fidel Castro.
Pamphlet, "The Road to Socialism," by Blas Rocan - - - - Irving - - - - - - - - 315
Pamphlet, Russian, bearing No. 500 on cover - - - - - - - - Irving - - - - - - - - 325
Pamphlets, Russian - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Irving - - - - - - - - 89-94
Pamphlets, No. 13, Russian document - - - - - - - - - - - - - Irving - - - - - - - - 192
Pamphlet, New York School for Marxist study, fall Beckley - - - - - - - 411
term, 1963.
Pamphlet, the weekly people entitled "Automation, a Irving - - - - - - - - 321
Job Killer."
Photos, "Visit to U.S.S.R." (4) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Irving - - - - - - - - 366
Photos, Fidel Castro (6). - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Irving - - - - - - - - 366
Photo, Fidel Castro - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Irving - - - - - - - - 368
Photo, female Russian workers in radio factory - - - - - - - Irving - - - - - - - - 332
Photo, Russian workers - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Irving - - - - - - - - 331
147
Mr. JENNER. Now, Mrs. Paine, one of the things we said we might see is a package that was in your garage containing curtain rods.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes--as you recall.
Mr. JENNER. You said you would leave that package in precisely the place
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wherever it was last week when you were in Washington, D.C., and have you touched it since you came home?
Mrs. PAINE. I have not touched it.
Mr. JENNER. And is it now in the place it was to the best of your recollection on November 21, 1963?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, would you rise and enter the garage and point out in my presence and in the presence of Mr. Howlett where that package is?
(At this point the persons heretofore mentioned entered the garage as stated by Counsel Jenner.)
Mrs. PAINE. It is on a shelf above the workbench. It extends north of the north edge of the workbench.
Mr. JENNER. Is it the thicker of the two packages wrapped in brown wrapping paper, shorter and thicker?
Mrs. PAINE. You would do well to look at them both.
Mr. JENNER. Well, what I am going to do first--I'm going to hand you a pointer, and would you point to the package-that you have in mind?
Mrs. PAINE. This, to the best of my recollection, contains venetian blinds.
Mr. JENNER. The witness is now referring to a package which Mr. Howlett, and I will ask you to measure it in a moment, but which appears to me to be at most about 28 inches long, maybe 30, and about 6 1/2 inches high and about 6 1/2 inches through.
While it is still wrapped in place, Mr. Howlett, would you measure the package and it is a little bit irregular.
Agent HOWLETT. That is 2 feet 11 inches.
Mr. JENNER. The package is 2 feet 11 inches long and it is resting on a shelf which is apparently a foot down from the ceiling, and the north edge of the package is 5 inches from the outer wall of the storeroom I have described, and Mr. Howlett has--now measured the distance from the shelf on which the package is resting, to the floor, and that is what distance?
Agent HOWLETT. Seven feet and three inches.
Mr. JENNER. Now, measure the height of the package.
Mrs. PAINE..While you are up there, measure the one behind you.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; we will.
Agent HOWLETT. The height of the package is about seven inches.
Mr. JENNER. And it is how thick through from east to west?
Agent HOWLETT. Seven inches.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, I'll ask Mr. Howlett to take the package down, since he is already up there on top of the bench, and we will open it in the presence of Mrs. Paine and see what it contains.
The package has now been taken down from the shelf in our presence and Mrs. Paine is opening it. Mrs. Paine, and in your presence, Mr. Howlett, what does the package contain?
Mrs. PAINE. It contains two venetian blinds, both of them are 2 feet 6 inches.
Mr. JENNER. And they are of the metal variety, are they not?
Mrs. PAINE. They are.
Mr. JENNER. And those blinds are 2 feet 6 inches wide?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, they are wrapped in brown or light-tan wrapping paper?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have a supply of this particular wrapping paper around your home at that time?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. From where did you obtain this wrapping paper?
Mrs. PAINE. This must have come around a package or something I had bought. I have never had a supply of this variety.
Mr. JENNER. Now, John Joe, will you favor Mrs. Paine by putting her package back the way it was?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes--for the record.
Mr. JENNER. For the record, when we sought to rewrap the package, it has a paster on the outside of Sears, Roebuck & Co., Dallas, No. 4017, and "Will call--M.R. Paine."
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Mrs. Paine has torn from the package some sticky tape.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. It is wider than the variety we have heretofore identified--is it your recollection that this sticky tape came on this particular package when it was delivered to your home?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And is this paper the paper in which the blinds came in the first instance?
Mrs. PAINE. These blinds did not come to me from Sears, Roebuck, but that--I used to replace them did. Now, whether the shades I bought came in this package, I have no idea whatever.
Mr. JENNER. Well, is it your recollection that this paper in which the blinds are now wrapped came from another package that was delivered to you and not a part of a general supply of paper which you had in your home?
Mrs. PAINE. It was certainly not part of a general supply of paper.
Mr. JENNER. Is it your recollection that the sticky tape that appears on this wrapping was affixed to the package which this is?
Mrs. PAINE. As you said, yes.
Mr. JENNER. This paper--when delivered to your home, having nothing to do with the curtain rods or the rifle or anything else hereon, is that right?
Mrs. PAINE. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. Now, we see in back of this package that we have just described a much longer package also wrapped on--in light-tan wrapping paper--at this time a little bit darker, I think, than the package we have just been describing, and Mr. Howlett has now mounted again the work bench and is measuring that package. That package, Mr. Howlett, is also on the shelf.
Agent HOWLETT. The same shelf in behind where the other package was.
Mr. JENNER. And it is how long?
Agent HOWLETT. Three feet nine inches long, as it is folded now.
Mr. JENNER. And in general is it a rectangular package?
Agent HOWLETT. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. But its shape is not as well defined as the shorter package we have already described?
Agent HOWLETT. No, sir; it seems to be a little bit bigger at the north end.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, before we open it, what is in that package?
Mrs. PAINE. My best guess would be that it contains two pull blinds which I did have in the southeast bedroom.
Mr. JENNER. When you say "pull blinds" you mean venetian blinds?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I do not. I mean roll-type.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Howlett, would you be good enough to take that package down and we will open it in Mrs Paine's presence here.
(At this point Agent Howlett complied with the request of Counsel Jenner.)
Mr. JENNER. It contains, does it not, what you call the pull blinds, and which I, in my vernacular call spring window shades.
Mrs. PAINE All, right, that's correct, and these are cut to fit the windows in the southeast bedroom.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Howlett, there are two of them, one of which is how wide?
Agent HOWLETT. Two feet six inches.
Mr. JENNER. And the other one is?
Agent HOWLETT. Three feet six inches.
Mr. JENNER. And Mr. Howlett and Mrs. Paine, these two spring window-shades are the customary type we see on windows, these, however, are white or cream colored, and are plastic?
Mrs. PAINE. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. And they are opaque?
Mrs. PAINE. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. Neither is metal?
Mrs. PAINE No.
Mr. JENNER. The spring to which the shade itself the plastic shade is attached, is wood, inside of which there is the usual window shade spring.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. The paper in which these are wrapped likewise contains as did
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the other one an address sticker of Sears, Roebuck & Co., No. 4017, addressed to Michael R. Paine.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And so, the wrapping paper in which those two shades are wrapped came from Sears, Roebuck & Co. and not from any roll of paper that you keep in your home?
Mrs. PAINE. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. Now, are there any other paper-wrapped packages on that shelf?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. It was your impression as you testified last week that you had some curtain rods on the shelf wrapped in a paper wrapping?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, I testified that.
Mr. JENNER. That was your impression, was it not?
Mrs. PAINE. And as part of the testimony I said they were very light and might not deserve their own wrapping.
Mr. JENNER. You, of course you did state it was possible they might not be separately wrapped?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Is there another shelf below the shelf on which you found the first two packages?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; there is.
Mr. JENNER And, Mr. Howlett, that shelf is about how far below the upper one on which we found the two packages?
Agent HOWLETT. About 10 1/2 inches.
Mr. JENNER. Now, we all see, do we not, peeking up what appears to be a butt end of what we might call a curtain rod, is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. Is that correct, Mr. Howlett?
Agent HOWLETT. Yes, sir; that's correct.
Mr. JENNER. Painted or enameled white?
Agent HOWLETT. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Would you reach back there and take out what appears to be a curtain rod, Mr. Howlett-- how many do you have there?
Agent HOWLETT. There are two curtain rods, one a white and the other a kind of buff color or cream colored.
Mr. JENNER. Now, would you please search the rest of that shelf and see if you can find any other curtain rods or anything similar to the curtain rods, and look on the bottom shelves, Mr. Howlett, will you please?
While he is doing that, Mrs. Paine, I notice there is on your garage floor what looks like a file casing you have for documents similar, at least it seems substantially identical to those that we had in Washington last week.
Mrs. PAINE. This is a filing case similar, yes, slightly different in color to one that you had in Washington. It contains madrigal music. It was on November 22 at the apartment where my husband was living.
Agent HOWLETT. I have just finished searching both shelves and I don't find any other curtain rods.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, are the curtain rods that Mr. Howlett has taken down from the lower of the two shelves, the two curtain rods to which you made reference in your testimony before the Commission last week?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; they are.
Mr. JENNER. And you know of no other curtain rods, do you, in your garage during the fall of 1963?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I do not.
Mr. JENNER. And in particular, no other curtain rods in your garage at any time on the 21st or 22d of November 1963?
Mrs. PAINE. None whatsoever.
Mr. JENNER. May we take these curtain rods and mark them as exhibits and we will return them after they have been placed of record?
Mrs. PAINE. All right.
Mr. JENNER. Miss Reporter, the cream colored curtain rod, we will mark Ruth Paine Exhibit 275 and the white one as Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 276.
The curtain rods referred to were at this time marked by the reporter as
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Page 425
Ruth Paine Exhibit Nos. 275 and 276, for identification.)
Mr. JENNER. Since we will have the exact physical exhibits we don't have to measure them, but perhaps for somebody who is reading the record, Mr. Howlett, your suggestion that we measure them is not a bad one. Let me describe the configuration of these rods. They are very light weight--what would you say that metal is, Mr. Howlett, tin--heavy tin?
Agent HOWLETT. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. They are the sliding or extension type, one fitting into the other when closed entirely, measuring from upended tip to upended tip they are----
Agent HOWLETT. The white one is 2 feet 3 1/2 inches.
Mr. JENNER. And the cream colored one measured in the like fashion?
Agent HOWLETT. It is 2 feet 3 1/2 inches.
Mr. JENNER. These curtain rods--the ends of each of them are turned. Those ends extending are turned up how many inches?
Agent HOWLETT. About 2 inches measuring from the inside of the curtain rod.
Mr. JENNER. On the cream colored one, and what about the white one?
Agent HOWLETT. Yes; on the cream colored one and the white one measures about 2 1/2 inches.
Mr. JENNER. Now, these curtain rods with the ends turned up form a "U," do they not, a long "U"?
Agent HOWLETT. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Now, Mrs. Paine, we have only remaining the one other item to which you have called our attention and that is the correspondence between you and Marina Oswald subsequent to November 22, 1963.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Have you been able to assemble that correspondence for me?
Mrs. PAINE. I appear only to have the translation.
Mr. JENNER. I beg your pardon?
Mrs. PAINE. I appear only to have the translation.
Mr. JENNER. You appear only to have the translation--will you explain that remark?
Mrs. PAINE. The correspondence you refer to is all by me, with the exception of one Christmas card from Marina.
Mr. JENNER. When it is by you, you mean it is correspondence you transmitted to her and therefore you do not have the originals?
Mrs. PAINE. I thought I had the rough draft of what I wrote--I appear only to have a translation of that rough draft. I made a translation for several of these--I made a translation at the time and sent them off.
Mr. JENNER. At the time you prepared the originals?
Mrs. PAINE. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. May I have the translations?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; you may.
Agent John Joe Howlett
Page 425
TESTIMONY OF AGENT JOHN JOE HOWLETT
Mr. JENNER. While we are doing that, Miss Oliver, since I have involved Agent Howlett in this deposition--Mr. Howlett, would you rise and be sworn and I will ask you some questions in connection with this deposition, and in that regard do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Agent HOWLETT. I do.
Mr. JENNER. State your name, please?
Agent HOWLETT. John Joe Howlett.
Mr. JENNER. And you are a member of the Secret Service of the United States?
Agent HOWLETT. Yes, sir; special agent.
Mr. JENNER. In the Dallas office?
Agent HOWLETT. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And you accompanied Miss Oliver and myself this evening, brought us out to Mrs. Paine's home?
Agent HOWLETT. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And you have been present throughout my examination of Mrs.
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Paine and my examination of the premises, and you have assisted me, have you not?
Agent HOWLETT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. In making measurements and also in recounting the appearance of rooms, front lawn, garage, and otherwise?
Agent HOWLETT. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. In all those measurements that you made and reported to the reporter, were they as accurately made as you could make them under the conditions?
Agent HOWLETT. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did you report, orally, truthfully, and accurately the various measurements that are now recorded in this record?
Agent HOWLETT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And were you present during the time that I also called figures or ordered descriptions?
Agent HOWLETT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And were the figures I called and the descriptions I made, to the best of your knowledge, information and belief, accurate?
Agent HOWLETT. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER And made in your presence?
Agent HOWLETT. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Thank you.
Agent HOWLETT. There is one thing on there--on the window.
Mr. JENNER. Which window?
Agent HOWLETT. The window in the southeast bedroom.
Mr. JENNER. Yes--that's Marina's bedroom, is it not?
Mrs. PAINE. She was staying in there yes.
Agent HOWLETT. I believe I previously reported that as 3 feet 3 inches, and I think it should have been 3 feet 8 inches.
Mr. JENNER. High or wide?
Agent HOWLETT. Wide would you like for me to check it?
Mr. JENNER Yes; you might check it.
Mrs. PAINE. It's probably 3 feet 6 inches--it's identical to the shade we have just measured.
Mr. JENNER. Off the record.
(Discussion between Counsel Jenner, Agent Howlett, and the witness, Mrs. Paine.)
Mr. JENNER. Back on the record for Mrs. Paine's testimony.
Ruth Hyde Paine - Resumed
Page 426
TESTIMONY OF RUTH HYDE PAINE RESUMED
Mrs. Paine has now produced and has in front of her as she is seated here at the table, some documents--what are they, Mrs. Paine?
Mrs. PAINE. I have here translations of seven of the letters, and they are the seven most recent letters that I have sent to Marina Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. Since November 22?
Mrs. PAINE. Since November 22.
Mr. JENNER. They consist of one, two, three, four. five, six, seven pages?
Mrs. PAINE. Each letter is complete on one page.
Mr. JENNER. And I will now mark that seven-page document as "Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 277."
(Instrument marked by the reporter as "Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 277," for identification.)
Mrs. PAINE. And, I would like to describe what little correspondence between November 22 and the first date here---December 27.
Mr. JENNER. Would you forgive me if I asked you a few more questions about the exhibit first?
Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes; I'm sorry.
Mr. JENNER. "Ruth Paine Exhibit 277" consists of seven pages of translations prepared by you?
Mrs. PAINE. That's correct.
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Mr. JENNER. Of the letters that you perpared, the originals of which you transmitted or delivered?
Mrs. PAINE. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. You transmitted by mail or delivered by hand or some other fashion to Marina?
Mrs. PAINE. Well----
Mr. JENNER. Or sought to have delivered to her--should I put it that way?
Mrs. PAINE. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. And do you note throughout this material the means or method by which you sought to draw these letters, to her attention?
Mrs. PAINE. Each one says how it was sent--yes.
Mr. JENNER. And when did you make the transcripts that now appear as Ruth Paine Exhibit 277, by transcript I mean translations.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes--the first three letters here, I have a note at the top indicating when the translation was made.
Mr. JENNER. When were they made with relation to when the originals were dispatched?
Mrs. PAINE. The first three translations were made later.
Mr. JENNER. How much later?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, depending--the translations were all made on January 26. The first three letters were written respectively, December 27, December 28 and January 3.
Mr. JENNER. And from what did you make the translation?
Mrs. PAINE. From my notes in Russian of the original letter which I cannot now find.
Mr. JENNER. You prepared a first draft and then after you had prepared the first draft and gone over it to make sure it recited what you wished, you then wrote the final answer?
Mrs. PAINE. That's right--in Russian.
Mr. JENNER. In Russian and dispatched it?
Mrs. PAINE. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. And they are pages 4 through 7, correct?
Mrs. PAINE. That's right--the other translations were all made at the time indicated on the page, which was also the time the letter was written and sent.
Mr. JENNER. Now, have you in the last day or two at my request reviewed carefully the translations which now compose this Ruth Paine Exhibit 277?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes I have.
Mr. JENNER. And to the best of your knowledge, information and belief, after that check are you now able to say whether those transcriptions are accurate and whether also the statements you make of descriptive character in connection therewith are also accurate and truthful?
Mrs. PAINE. I believe them to be fully accurate.
Mr. JENNER. Now, you had another sheaf of papers when you produced Exhibit 277--what are those papers?
Mrs. PAINE. I have a few scratch notes which tell what correspondence there was between November 22 and the first date of this exhibit, which was December 27.
Mr. JENNER. Refreshing your recollection from those notes, tell me if you can what correspondence there was prior to the first letter, which appears as December 27, in Ruth Paine Exhibit 277?
Mrs. PAINE. There were two or three short notes written by myself to Marina Oswald and sent to her along with a small stack of letters and checks which had come addressed to me, but really for her. I sent these via the Irving Police to Secret Service. I have no copies of these, but I have seen one in translation, I believe it to have been the second one that I wrote, among the Commission papers that were shown to me in Washington.
There was a note and Christmas card sent to me by Marina and postmarked December 21. Then, there was also a note and Christmas card sent by me to Marina on the same date, December 21.
Mr. JENNER. Did you send that before or after you received her card?
Mrs. PAINE .They crossed.
Mr. JENNER. Are you able to translate now for the record the wording of
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the Christmas card or message received from Marina by you?
Mrs. PAINE. I would rather have a few minutes with it before doing it for the record. I have not done it in advance because time didn't serve. I do want here to try to describe what I recall as the content of my note, which I have no copy of that.
Mr. JENNER. Notes that are in your hand, are they in Russian?
Mrs. PAINE. These, no; this is descriptive of what I sent and the situation surrounding the note I sent to her on December 21, and as I say, I have no copy of that note. I included a Christmas greeting from myself and my children and expressed my concern for her and and said I didn't want to bother her, but I did want to see her.
Mr. JENNER. To the extent you can recite it literally, do so, please.
Mrs. PAINE. I can't--I handed this note to Mr. Martin in his home.
Mr. JENNER. Is this the note you had in mind when you testified last week before the Commission that you had gone to his home and delivered something to him?
Mrs. PAINE. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. Along with some other letters that had, come containing contributions from kindhearted Americans which had been sent to Marina and arrived at your home?
Mrs. PAINE. That's right. I talked with Mr. Martin and after having talked with him I added something to my note, saying that I had talked with him and that it had relieved, my mind somewhat about her. I also brought that same day an opened package containing wrapped Christmas gifts which had come to my home addressed to me from a lady who had previously written to inquire what kind of gifts might be appropriate for Marina's children. When I opened the package, though the outside had been addressed to me, the inside was labeled, "Rachel" and "Junie", and clearly Christmas gifts for Marina and the two children. I also brought a small box of Christmas cookies for the Martin family.
Mr. JENNER. As gifts from you and your children to the Martin family family?
Mrs. PAINE. That's right; that's correct.
Agent HOWLETT. I remeasured that window at the southeast corner of the house---the first bedroom--the one which Marina was in, and that picture window is correctly 3 feet 7 inches wide.
Mr. JENNER. Now, we will go off the record.
(Discussion between Counsel Jennet and the witness, Mrs. Paine, off the record.)
Mr. JENNER. Back on the record.
Mrs. Paine, you recall that last week in testifying before the Commission, you referred to an incident in which you drove into Dallas with Lee Oswald accompanying you, for the purpose of having a key on your typewriter repaired?
Mrs. PAINE. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. And what date was that that you drove into Dallas?
Mrs. PAINE. My recollection is that we drove in on October 14, Monday.
Mr. JENNER. Have you, since your return to Irving from Washington, found something in your home that helps refresh your recollection about that incident?
Mrs. PAINE. I looked up the check stubs to see what date I wrote the Weaver Office Machines Co. a check to for that was written when we went to pick up the machine.
Mr. JENNER. Now, you said "we." Did Lee Oswald accompany you on that occasion as well?
Mrs. PAINE. No, he did not; just Marina and myself and our children went and the check stub is dated October 18.
Mr. JENNER. And does that refresh your recollection as to the date when you picked up-the typewriter?
Mrs. PAINE. That is, of course, the date I picked up the typewriter, and it is my best judgment that it was therefore the preceding Monday that I took the typewriter in.
Mr. JENNER. And what was the occasion again to--why you had typewriter repaired as of that time?
Mrs. PAINE. The original key was incorrect--I had it replaced.
Mr. JENNER. Incorrect in what sense---it had an incorrect Russian symbol--- Russian language symbol?
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Mrs. PAINE. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. And you wanted to replace it for what reason--did Lee Oswald desire to use it or were you using it or what were the circumstances?
Mrs. PAINE. I. was using the typewriter in preparation for teaching Russian to one student.
Mr. JENNER. Is there anything else about that incident that you would, like to add to the record.
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Now, Mrs. Paine, I can think of no additional questions at the moment.
Is there anything that has occurred to you in the meantime that is, since you were in Washington, to which you would like to draw my attention and the attention of the Commission as possibly having a bearing on the Commission's investigation, the nature of which, you have been heretofore advised?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. There is nothing?
Mrs. PAINE. This is rather an aside, I would think.
Mr. JENNER. All right, let's go off the record a minute.
(Discussion between Counsel Jenner and the witness, Mrs. Paine, off the record.)
Mr. JENNER. We go back on the record.
In gifts received by you since November 22, 1963, at your home, that is, gifts to Marina, did some of those gifts come in the form of cash as distinguished from check or money orders?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, some of them did. I regret that most of those that came as cash came early and I Simply sent them on to Secret Service as cash. After--about the end of 1963 I began to wonder, since I had not heard directly from Marina, whether she was getting these, and I therefore decided to send any such contributions that came to me as cash on to her as checks drawn on my bank account.
Mr. JENNER. Had you talked with John Thorne, or Jim Martin in advance of delivering those checks-- "yes" or "no"?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. All right, tell us the circumstances?
Mrs. PAINE. I asked John Thorne----
Mr. JENNER. By telephone or direct inquiry face to face?
Mrs. PAINE. In person, at his office, whether Marina Oswald was signing, and by this I meant endorsing her own checks and his reply to me was that everything she can do herself she is doing. From this I assumed she could sign her name. I left a letter which enclosed such a check written by me to her.
Mr. JENNER. You left with whom? With John Thorne or with Mr. Martin?
Mrs. PAINE. It does look as if I had left it--let's see--given to the hand of John Thorne.
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, you have now turned to the second page of Ruth Paine Exhibit 277 and you are pointing to a footnote at the bottom of that page, are you not?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And the reference there to this letter is to the letter which appears on that page?
Mrs. PAINE That's right.
Mr. JENNER. And do I take it from the footnote that accompanying that letter transcribed in the second page of Ruth Paine Exhibit 277, accompanying it was a check?
Mrs. PAINE. That's right, enclosed in the stamped and sealed envelope.
Mr. JENNER. And the check is the instrument you now hand me, dated December 28, 1963, check number 205 in the sum of $10, payable to Marina Oswald, which we will mark as Ruth Paine Exhibit 277-A.
(Exhibit marked by the reporter as Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 277-A, for identification.)
Mr. JENNER. On the reverse side of that there appears in longhand as an endorsement and the name "Marina Oswald." Do you see it?
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Mrs. PAINE. I do.
Mr. JENNER. Are you familiar with that signature?
Mrs. PAINE. I am not.
Mr. JENNER. Are you familiar with Marina Oswald's signature?
Mrs. PAINE. I am.
Mr. JENNER. Looking at the endorsement on the reverse side of Exhibit 277-A, in your opinion is or is not that Marina Oswald's signature?
Mrs. PAINE. That is not Marina Oswald's official hand.
Mr. JENNER. Did you repeat that process on some subsequent occasions of remitting cash gifts by check?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, I did.
Mr. JENNER. And you have now handed me another instrument which purports to be and which is a check.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. On the Southwest Bank and Trust Co., and what is the other document No. 277-A, this one, which is dated January 8, 1964, and it is the sum of $5 and it is check No. 216.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. It is also payable to Marina Oswald; is that your check?
Mrs PAINE. Yes, it is.
Mr. JENNER. We will mark it as Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 277-B.
(Instrument referred to marked by the reporter as Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 277-B, for identification.)
Mr. JENNER. Referring to Exhibit 277-A and 277-B, does your signature appears as the maker of each of those checks?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it does.
Mr. JENNER. And you recall distinctly that you did make them?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I do.
Mr. JENNER. And these are the cancelled checks that are returned to you by your bank, Southwest Bank &Trust Co.?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Referring to Exhibit No. 277-A and turning it over, is there an endorsement on the reverse side?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; there is.
Mr. JENNER. And do you recognize that endorsement?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I do.
Mr. JENNER. Is it in longhand?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is.
Mr. JENNER. In whose hand?
Mrs. PAINE. That is in Marina Oswald's hand.
Mr. JENNER. And it reads "Marina Oswald," does it not?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Each of these checks also bears the stamped endorsement "For deposit only, to Oswald Trust Fund," is that right?
Mrs. PAINE. That's right--that should be said.
Mr. JENNER. And are these instruments now in the same condition when they were returned to you, by your bank?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; they are.
Mr. JENNER. Miss Reporter, I hand you the check No. 205 dated December 28, 1963, please mark it Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 277-A. And mark check No. 216, dated January 8, 1964, as Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 277- B.
(Instruments marked by the reporter as Ruth Paine Exhibits Nos. 277-A and 277-B.)
Mr. JENNER. May I have your permission, please Mrs. Paine, to retain these two exhibits and as soon as I have photostated them with all of the other originals of documents that you produced last week, I want to return them all to you at once.
Mrs. PAINE. All right.
Mr. JENNER. Anything else, now, that occurs to you?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Anything else that is pertinent which you think might be helpful to the Commission in this investigation?
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Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. We have been on and off the record during the course of this session, Mrs. Paine, in which I have had some conversation with you. Is there anything that occurred during those off-the-record sessions which you regard as pertinent which I have not brought out?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Is there anything that occurred in those off-the-record sessions opinion is inconsistent with anything that has been stated and record by you or stated into the record by Mr. Howlett or by me?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Off the record.
(Discussion between Counsel Jenner and the witness, Mrs. Paine, off the record.)
Mr. JENNER. Back on the record now, please. Facing north, in the rear of the Paine home, the rear door leading from the kitchen-dining room area out onto the yard in the rear, there is a large pleasant, completely open yard with grass. The plot is surrounded by a cyclone fence 5 feet high with a gate so that children playing, small children playing in the yard are completely protected and prevented from getting out. That yard area, measuring from the north wall of the home to the rear fence is 80 feet, 6 inches and in width, measuring east to west, the yard from cyclone fence to cyclone fence is 51 feet. There is a clothesline that traverses from east to west in the yard and the clothesline itself, the poles, which are parallel to the east-west line of the house and east-west fence in the rear is 19 1/2 feet south of the rear fence. There are two large shade trees, both oaks, the one at the easterly line near the easterly fence is 7 feet, 9 inches in circumference. There is one almost opposite on the west, which is much smaller, and is about--not quite a foot thick.
The tree in the front of the house which we have described earlier has a circumference of 6 feet, 3 inches, and the circumferences we have recited in the record were measured at 3 feet from the ground.
Is that correct, Mr. Howlett?
Agent HOWLETT. It is 6 feet on the tree in the front, 3 feet from the ground.
Mr. JENNER. I see---I recited, it 3 inches and that was in error.
Agent HOWLETT. It should be 6 feet, measured 3 feet from the ground.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, have you translated the note which appears on the inside of the Christmas card from Marina, about which you have testified this evening?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I have.
Mr. JENNER. It appears on the left inside portion, does it not?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Of the Christmas card and having interpreted or translated it would you read the translation into the record?
Mrs. PAINE. The translation says:
"DEAR RUTH:
Sends here greetings to you, Micheal and the children and wishes for a Merry Christmas and Happy New Year. I am very sorry that our friendship ended so unfortunately but it was not my fault. I hope that the new year will bring us all better changes. I wish you health, fortune, happiness and all of the very best. A great big thank you for all the fine things you did for me.
Sincerely,
MARINA.
P.S.---Write if you feel like it, please. Greetings from little June. I kiss you, Marina."
Mr. JENNER. Thank you, Mrs. Paine.
Now, you have handed me a Christmas card, the cover page of which reads, "Wishing you the best," and there is an insignia on the front of it. I have already referred to the inside cover page, which you now have interpreted for us, and directing your attention to that writing which appears to be in red ink, are you familiar with the writing?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I am.
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Mr. JENNER. Whose writing is it?
Mrs. PAINE. It is Marina Oswald's writing.
Mr. JENNER. You also handed me an envelope which is postmarked at Dallas on December 21, 1963, and there appears to be some handwriting on that. Are you familiar with that handwriting?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I am.
Mr. JENNER. Whose is that?
Mrs. PAINE. It is Marina Oswald's handwriting.
Mr. JENNER. Here again as in the case of other envelopes, the envelope itself--- everything appearing on the face of the envelope is in English?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Whereas, the note on the inside is in Russian?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. And this is as you testified---she was able to write English to the extent of addressing letters, cards, and envelopes?
Mrs. PAINE. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. Miss Reporter, would you now mark the two exhibits I now hand you as Ruth Paine Exhibit Nos. 278, the card, and 278-A, the envelope?
(Instruments referred to marked by the reporter as Ruth Paine Exhibit Nos. 278 and 278-A, for identification.)
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, is the card in the same condition now as it was except for the reporter's identification, when you received it?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is.
Mr. JENNER. And was Ruth Paine Exhibit 278, the card enclosed in the envelope which has been identified as Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 278-A?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it was so enclosed.
Mr. JENNER. And except for having slit the envelope to remove its contents, is the envelope in the same condition now as it was when you received it?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And may we, as in the case of the other exhibits, retain the original and when I have photostated it we will return them to you?
Mrs. PAINE. That is fine.
Mr. JENNER. I offer in evidence all of the exhibits which have been identified this evening.
Is there anything at all which has occurred to you that you desire to add, Mrs. Paine?
Mrs. PAINE. I can think of nothing else at this point.
Mr. JENNER. I do want to ask you this--while you were translating the Christmas card message, Mr. Howlett and I measured--we went out in your back yard area, which is large and open, and we measured it and I recited the measurements in the record and the location of your large beautiful shade trees. I noted that there traverses from east to west your yard in the rear a clothesline.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And I measured that as being located at 19 1/2 feet south of the back porch---of the back fence?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Is that the clothesline to which you made reference when you testified last week in Washington as to where Marina was on the midafternoon or early afternoon of November 22 when you went out to advise her that you had heard over the radio the name "Lee Oswald" in connection with events that day?
Mrs. PAINE. No; it was not that that I heard. I heard that a shot had been fired from the School Book Depository Building and this is what I told her.
Mr. JENNER. And is that clothesline and those posts which support the clothesline and from which the line is stretched across the yard in the same position now as those posts were on that day?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; they are.
Mr. JENNER. And on that occasion?
Mrs. PAINE. I can't remember whether as part of my testimony describing the evening of November 22, I said that Marina told me that when I reported to her the situation at the clothes line that the TV had announced that the shots which hit the President were fired from the School Book Depository.
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She recalled that to me in the evening and told me when I had told her this, her heart went to the bottom. I don't recall .whether I included that, but I remember that during the Commission hearings--I have recalled it since.
Mr. JENNER. I direct your attention to page 49 of the document entitled "Affidavits and Statements Taken in Connection With the Assassination of the President," to which we have heretofore made reference when I asked you to examine a list of documents and books and records and papers and pamphlets. Directing your attention to page 49---is that an affidavit or a signed statement that you furnished the Dallas city police?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, it is.
Mr. JENNER. And is that the statement to which you had reference in your testimony before the Commission that you gave on the evening of November 22?
Mrs. PAINE. The 22d, yes.
Mr. JENNER. Under examination by an officer of the Dallas city police?
Mrs. PAINE. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. Will you read it through and see if it serves to refresh your recollection, read it to yourself, and see if it serves to refresh your recollection as to anything you might not have included in your testimony last week as to what occurred during the course of the interview of the Dallas city police with you?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall most of that content but that surely was it--I was under a good deal of stress at the time.
"AFFIDAVIT IN ANY FACT
THE STATE OF TEXAS
COUNTY OF DALLAS
BEFORE ME, Patsy Collins, a Notary Public in and for said county, State of Texas, on this day personally appeared Ruth Hyde Paine/w/f/31, 2515 W. Fifth Street, Irving, Texas. Who, after being by me duly sworn, on oath deposes and says: I have lived at the above address for about 4 years. My husband, Michael and I- had been separated for about a year. IN the early winter of 1963, I went to a party in Dallas because I heard that some people would be there that spoke Russian. I was interested in the language. At that party I met Lee Oswald and his Russian wife Marina. About a month later I went to visit them on Neely Street. In May I asked her to stay with me because Lee went to New Orleans to look for work. About two weeks later I took Marina to New Orleans to join her husband. Around the end of September I stopped by to see them while I was on vacation. I brought Marina back with me to Irving. He came in 2 weeks, later, but did not stay with his wife and me. Marina's husband would come and spend most of the weekends with his wife. Through my neighbor, we heard there was an opening at the Texas School Book Depository. Lee applied and was accepted. Lee did not spend last weekend there. He came in about 5 pm yesterday and spent the night. I was asleep this morning when he left for work.
(S) RUTH HYDE PAINE."
Mr. JENNER. Now, I direct your attention to page 46. There appears to be a signature of Mrs. Marina Oswald on that page. You are familiar with her signature?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, I am.
Mr. JENNER. Is that her signature?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, that is her signature.
Mr. JENNER. Will you read the statement and see if it serves to refresh your recollection or stimulate some other recollection as to what occurred that evening or at any other time, to which you have not already testified.
Mrs. PAINE. (Read instrument referred to.)
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, you have now read what purports to be a statement taken from Marina Oswald on the night of November 22 at the Dallas City Police Station?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. On that occasion did you interpret or translate for Marina Oswald?
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Mrs. PAINE. No; I did not.
Mr. JENNER. Were you present when she was examined?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I was.
Mr. JENNER. And now, having examined the statement transcribed on Page 46, to the best of your recollection, to the extent it summarizes what was said, is it accurate?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, I particularly remember the part of the testimony or the statement, sworn statement, that talks about the rifle, that she had known there had been a rifle in the garage and that it was not there on the 22d, that she could not positively say it was her husband's rifle when they showed her a rifle at the police station. This is what I particularly remember.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall that she fixed the time when she had seen the blanket prior to November 22 as having been 2 weeks prior thereto?
Mrs. PAINE. She was indefinite, more so than the statement here.
Mr. JENNER. The statement reads, "I opened the blanket and saw a rifle in it."
Mrs. PAINE. My recollection of that is that she opened the blanket and saw a portion of what she judged to be a rifle, having known already that her husband had one.
Mr. JENNER. Did she identify the part she saw as the stock of the rifle?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall--that was all done by the police.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, is there anything in addition that has occurred to you--however, Mr. Howlett has called my attention to something we thought we might ask you before we close.
Directing your attention to the bottom drawer of the secretary in the kitchen- dining area of the house, was Lee Oswald familiar with the contents of that drawer?
Mrs. PAINE. I think it appears in my testimony at Washington that to the best of my knowledge neither he nor Marina saw me use the contents of that drawer.
Mr. JENNER Did you ever see either of them enter that drawer?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. All right. I think I am finished---is there anything you wish to add?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. It is now 10 minutes after 11 and we arrived here at 7:30 this evening. Mrs. Paine, again I express to you my personal appreciation of the length to which you have gone to be cooperative with me and with the Commission and with all of us undertaking this sometimes gruesome work.
Mrs. PAINE. Well, I am glad to help.
Mr. JENNER. And you have been very helpful. Thank you.
Mrs. PAINE. Thank you.
Mr. JENNER. This deposition will be transcribed. We will have it here in Dallas next week when I return. If you wish to read it, you may do so and you may call me at the United States attorney's office and it will be available to you to read. If the other transcript is ready, since I am officially authorized to have the same in my possession, I will do my best to bring one with me so that you may read your testimony of last week as well.
Mrs. PAINE. I would be very interested in that, thank you, and I could then sign this deposition.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; you could sign this and the deposition I took of you on Saturday of last week.
Mrs. PAINE. All right. Thank you.
Mr. JENNER. Thank you again, and that is all.
Michael R. Paine
Page 434
TESTIMONY OF MICHAEL R. PAINE
TESTIMONY Volume XI
TESTIMONY OF RUTH HYDE PAINE
The testimony of Ruth Hyde Paine was taken at 11:15 a.m., on July 23, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. LIEBELER. You are quite familiar with the proceedings of the Commission and with the Commission's rules governing the taking of testimony, since you have given testimony perhaps longer than any other witness we have had, so we won't go through all the rituals of explaining the purposes of why I am here, and I will come right to the point.
In the testimony that you gave before the Commission, Mr. Jenner asked you about the events of the evening of November 21, 1963, as regards the relations
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between Lee and Marina. There was also considerable testimony about their whereabouts and about the possibility that Oswald wrapped the rifle up that evening, but I am not particularly concerned about that. I do want to focus on your impression of the relations between Lee and Marina at that time.
As I recall, the preceding Sunday you had called Oswald at his roominghouse and asked for Lee Oswald and, of course, were not able to talk to him because he was living there under the alias of O. H. Lee. As I understand, on the following Monday Oswald called Marina, as was his custom, and they had a considerable discussion over the use of the alias, and after that conversation, or conversations that took place on Monday, Lee did not call Marina again that week; is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE. That's my impression.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember how many times Oswald called Marina on Monday?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, he called nearly every evening while he was working during the week--he usually called around 5:30, just to talk.
Mr. LIEBELER. But specifically, on this Monday following the Sunday on which you called the roominghouse and asked for him, the Monday on which they had the argument about his use of the alias, do you remember how many times he called and talked to Marina on that day?
Mrs. PAINE. On that particular Monday--only once, I think.
Mr. LIEBELER. Only one time?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina tell you, after she talked to him that Monday, what the conversation was about?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; she did.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did she tell you?
Mrs. PAINE. She said--and I believe I have testified to this--that she was clearly upset. You are asking me what she told me of the conversation?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.
Mrs. PAINE. I, of course, could tell that she was upset while talking to him, although I didn't understand much of what she said to him, as I was in the same room. She said that he was living under a different name; was angry that we had tried to call him and she said that this is not the first time she had felt between two fires, and I judge that she meant between a loyalty to him and a feeling that what he was doing was not right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did she say that this wasn't the first time that she felt between two fires, or did she use an expression that "this isn't the first time I felt 22 fires?"
Mrs. PAINE. "Between two fires," is my memory on that. Twenty-two fires? This is a common expression in Russsian; it's like between the Devil and the deep blue sea.
Mr. LIEBELER. Between two fires, you mean?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Well, the only problem that I have is that on page 45 of volume 3, of the page proofs your testimony indicates that.
Mrs. PAINE. That's why I would like to read my testimony. That's just incorrect. Between 22 fires--no, no-- this is not it. This should be, "This is not the first time I felt between two fires," which, as I say, is like our expression, "Between the Devil and the deep blue sea."
Mr. LIEBELER. I will correct the page proofs to reflect that on your previous testimony.
Mrs. PAINE. It occurs twice there, I see.
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. Did she tell you of any detail of what the argument was about--what the situation was?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, she said that she felt he should not be using an alias. It wasn't contained in anything that was said, but I got the feeling that she was upset with his doing this or thinking that he should or could do it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you whether or not Oswald had told her why he was using the alias?
Mrs. PAINE. She did not tell me anything about why.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any ideas as to why he might be doing it?
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Mrs. PAINE. Well, I did suppose the possibility--it is possible that he was worried about it being found out at the School Book Depository that he had a Russian wife. He did ask me to ask Mrs. Randle to ask Frazier not to ask questions, not to discuss the fact that he had a Russian wife with the coworkers at the School Book Depository. I think he felt that, if this was known, it would also become known that he went to Russia and the circumstances of that, and he felt, and this was a sheer guess on my part, and I judge that he felt this would make his job tenure unsure.
Mr. LIEBELER. In other words, you do say, however, that Oswald did ask you to ask Mrs. Randle to ask Wesley Frazier not to talk about Oswald's Russian wife at the School Book Depository; is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE. That's right; so that my impression is supported to that extent.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ask Mrs. Randle to ask Mr. Frazier to do that?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether or not she did?
Mrs. PAINE. She said she had already discussed it and she judged that they would not be talking about it.
Mr. LIEBELER. You. You don't know whether Mrs. Randle ever specifically mentioned it to Frazier after you talked to her?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I don't know that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember when Oswald asked you to do that?
Mrs. PAINE. It was very shortly after he got the job--it was in the first week, I would say.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina tell you that she was angry with Oswald for using this alias?
Mrs. PAINE. It was clear that she was angry--on the face of it.
Mr. LIEBELER. This was clear to you on Monday after the conversation she had with Oswald?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald, of course, did not call Marina at any time during the rest of that week. Did you and Marina discuss the reasons for this?
Mrs. PAINE. We didn't discuss reasons. She did say on Wednesday, is my recollection, that she said, "He thinks he's punishing me," after I told her the fact that he was not calling as he usually did, and her comment was, "He thinks he's punishing me."
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think that Marina continued to remain angry with Oswald throughout that week for his use of the alias?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't think she continued to remain angry--no. We did briefly discuss why he came on Thursday, with one another, after his arrival.
Mr. LIEBELER. Before we get to that, what was your impression of the relations, if Marina didn't tell you, between Marina and Oswald prior to the evening of Thursday, November 21?
Mrs. PAINE. They had a good many arguments and occasional heated words, and I felt this was--well, that Marina is not one to maintain a feeling of anger--I don't know about that.
Mr. LIEBELER. What makes you say that Marina is not one to maintain a feeling of anger? What is the basis for that judgment on your part?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, I have very little basis. Perhaps--she did write me during the summer, and you have that correspondence, saying that things were better when she didn't argue, and that may be the outward circumstances that I'm talking about. She certainly was cordial to Lee when he arrived on Thursday, and relations were normal between them, I would say.
Mr. LIEBELER. That's really what I want to come to and I want to ask you about, and you did say that on page 47 of volume 3 in your previous testimony. Mr. Jenner asked you as regards the evening of November 21, "Was there a coolness between them?"
Mrs. PAINE. He went to bed very early. She stayed up and talked with me some, but there was no coolness that I noticed. He was quite friendly on the lawn as we--
Then, Mr. Jenner said, "I mean coolness between himself and--between Lee and Marina."
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Mrs. PAINE. I didn't notice any such coolness. Rather, they seemed warm, like a couple making up a small spat. I should interject one thing here, too, that I recall as I entered the house and Lee had just come in. I said to him, "Our President is coming to town."
You indicated specifically here that he was quite friendly on the lawn and that you noticed no coolness between them. Now, what was Marina's response to all this, the best you can recall?
Mrs. PAINE. You recall that he was there when I arrived from the grocery store. They had already met. Her response was really to me, as he had gone on into the house. She mentioned to me her embarrassment that he hadn't called and asked if he could come.
Mr. LIEBELER. What about Marina's response to Lee, did I understand from reading your previous testimony that both you and Marina were of the opinion that Oswald had come home that night to make up the argument that Marina and Lee had had on the telephone on Monday; isn't that correct?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And Oswald acted in a manner that led you to believe that he had come home specifically to make up the argument?
Mrs. PAINE. That it was at least conciliatory.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did Oswald do that led you to believe that he wanted to make up the argument? Did he do anything different out of the ordinary?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I would say just the contrary, that he proceeded as he might normally have done on a Friday night coming home or coming to the house for the weekend. I don't think--I would be certain that he made no apology, just from my judgment of the man.
Mr. LIEBELER. At least, you didn't hear him make any apology?
Mrs. PAINE. I certainly didn't.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear him ask Marina to move into Dallas with him?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think that he might have asked her to do that?
Mrs. PAINE. She told me, and it should be there, that he had expressed to her--she told me the night of the 22d that he had expressed to her his wish that they could get together as soon as possible and have their apartment together. The setting in which she told me this left me with the impression that she was confused and hurt that he could be making a gesture toward the re-establishing of their family life when at the same time he must have been thinking about doing something that would necessarily destroy their family life. There was no. indication to her, in what she told me, that he meant for her to do it right away. I have since heard this by rumor.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, I'm going to read some more of the testimony to you momentarily, some of Marina's testimony, and I want to discuss it with you, but there is one bit of it particularly that I am confused about just from reading it and I get from it the possible inference and you also, I believe, indicate on page 49 of your testimony, that on the evening of the 21st you and Marina discussed plans for Christmas?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, I think it was then--I'm not positive that it was that night.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was there any conversation between you and Marina to the effect that Oswald was not to come back to Irving any more until Christmas time?
Mrs. PAINE. Oh, absolutely not.
Mr. LIEBELER. There was no indication that his pattern of coming on weekends was to change in any manner?
Mrs. PAINE. No; we had previously talked in terms of their staying at the house through Christmas and then the Oswalds getting an apartment again when they had saved up a little money, around the first of the year.
Mr. LIEBELER. Let me read to you a part of the testimony that Marina gave.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Which, frankly, seems to me somewhat inconsistent with the testimony that you have given about the events of this evening, although perhaps, these things might have happened outside of your presence and you were not aware of them. This appears at page 65 of volume 1 of the hearings.
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Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband give any reason for coming home on Thursday?
This, of course, was on Thursday, November 21.
Mrs. OSWALD. He said that he was lonely because he hadn't come the preceding weekend and he wanted to make his peace with me.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you say anything to him then?
Mrs. OSWALD. He tried to talk to me, but I would not answer him and he was very upset.
Mr. RANKIN. Were you upset with him?
Mrs. OSWALD. I was angry, of course. He was not angry, he was upset. I was angry. He tried very hard to please me. He spent quite a bit of time putting away diapers and playing with the children on the street.
Mr. RANKIN. How did you indicate to him that you were angry with him?
Mrs. OSWALD. By not talking to him.
Mr. RANKIN. And how did he show that he was upset?
Mrs. OSWALD. He was upset over the fact that I would not answer him. He tried to start a conversation with me several times, but I would not answer and he said that he didn't want me to be angry at him because this upsets him.
On that day he suggested that we rent an apartment in Dallas. He said that he was tired of living alone and perhaps the reason for my being so angry was the fact that we were not living together, that if I want to, he would rent an apartment in Dallas tomorrow, that he didn't want me to remain with Ruth any longer, but wanted me to live with him in Dallas. He repeated this not once, but several times, but I refused. And he said that once again I was preferring my friends to him and I didn't need him.
Mr. RANKIN. What did you say to that?
Mrs. OSWALD. I said it would be better if I remained with Ruth until the holidays, he would come and that we would all meet together and this was better, because while he was living alone and I stayed with Ruth, we were spending less money and I told him to buy me a washing machine, because with two children it became too difficult to wash by hand.
Mr. RANKIN. What did he say to that?
Mrs. OSWALD. He said he would buy me a washing machine.
Mr. RANKIN. What did you say to that?
Mrs. OSWALD. Thank you, that it would be better if he bought something for himself, that I would manage.
Mrs. PAINE. I want to point out that she referred to his playing with the children on the street, meaning outdoors--the phrase is the same in Russian, that is to say, the translation--it can mean either outdoors or on the street.
When I arrived, he had been there for at least, I will say, 15 minutes. I arrived around 5:30 and a good deal of this might have happened prior to then.
Mr. LIEBELER. Prior to the time you came home?
Mrs. PAINE. Prior to the time I arrived--yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, the next two sentences here I will read to you--two or three sentences more.
Mr. RANKIN. Did this seem to make him more upset when you suggested that he wait about getting an apartment for you to live in?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. He then stopped talking and sat down and watched television and then went to bed. I went to bed later. It was about 9 o'clock when he went to sleep. I went to sleep at about 11:30, but it seemed to me that he was not really asleep, but I didn't talk to him.
I suggest that that testimony would indicate that there probably was a considerable degree of coolness between the Oswalds that evening; would it suggest that to you?
Mrs. PAINE. It would suggest that to me.
Mr. LIEBELER. At least that their relations would not be normal.
Mrs. PAINE. Well, I might describe what I think normal is. I said I thought their relations were fairly normal.
Mr. LIEBELER. Well, was there usually a good deal of coolness between them?
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Mrs. PAINE. They would often have small arguments--he wanted potatoes, or where was the ketchup level of arguments, which I felt just reflected a tension between them that showed in this way.
Now, very little was said--I don't remember well, but it was not uncommon for him to eat his meal and then leave the table before other people did. I don't remember specifically, but it's possible he did that night and go in to watch the television. In other words, his efforts at being sociable or friendly even was never very great.
Mr. LIEBELER Well, specifically, the part of your testimony, of course, that I have difficulty in reconciling with the testimony I have just read is when Mr. Jenner asked you if you detected any coolness between Marina and him and you responded, "I didn't notice any such coolness. Rather, they seemed warm like a couple making up a small spat."
How clear and how definite is your recollection of the events of that evening? I can't possibly reconcile in my mind the testimony that Marina gave with the notion that they looked like a couple that were making up from a small spat, and as far as that goes you can't either.
Mrs. PAINE. No; I can't--that may be just my interpretation.
Mr. LIEBELER. After hearing Marina's testimony and reflecting on what happened that night, do you think that this testimony is consistent with what you remember having happened there that night ?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, I saw nothing of the argument she describes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; I appreciate that.
Mrs. PAINE. I saw no continuing of it in the sense that they threw barbs at each other later. I don't recall any such altercation, and as I say, I just don't remember well enough whether it was that night as he had on other nights--he ate and left the table without much conversation--or just what happened. It was really my assumption, I would say, that he was there to make up the quarrel over the telephone.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you specifically discussed that with Marina that evening?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you both agreed that that was the reason he came there?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. No; I don't mean that I specifically recall real warmth being shown, but that his behavior was much as it often was and I judged that he was there to make up for the fight in some way.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you also thought from observing Marina that she was glad to have him make up the spat or that they had made the spat up?
Mrs. PAINE. I didn't see anything opposite to that, at least, so I was left with my assumption unchallenged.
Mr. LIEBELER. So, as far as you know, the events that are described by Marina's testimony that I have just read---could perfectly well have happened.
Mrs. PAINE. It could could well have happened--indeed--yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. After the assassination, did you think about your previous judgment that Oswald had come out there that evening to make up the argument that he had with Marina?
Mrs. PAINE. That's what I thought he must have come for.
Mr. LIEBELER. After hearing this testimony. as it occurred between Marina and Lee that evening, do you think that could have had anything to do with his attitudes and feelings the next day?
Mrs. PAINE. What you read of her testimony is news to me. I had no idea what the tone was of any words that passed between them, and as I say, all I heard that was in any way familiar to me, was that he had asked her to take an apartment--nothing about it being right away. I would say it could certainly have affected his thinking about it the next day. It is conceivable even that he hadn't seriously thought about shooting the President, but that would be sheer conjecture on my part.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have a washing machine in your house?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina use it?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. If I may say--that I am disturbed by what she said. was concerned all along in this arrangement that Lee not resent my being--
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my offering a place for Marina, and what she said would do a good deal to raise resentment in him, I would think.
Mr. LIEBELER. Marina, of course, was aware of the fact that you did not want to conduct yourself in such a manner as to breed resentment on Oswald's part with respect to his relations with Marina?
Mrs. PAINE. We never discussed it explicitly. I probably would have if my Russian had been better. She at one point said to him on a weekend when he came out that my Russian was improving while his was getting worse, and I was embarrassed to have her say this. I may have testified to this, and just pointed out that I was getting more practice than he at that time was, but my feeling was that this was a mistake on her part in terms of his feelings to say that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did she say that in front of him?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; that's why I spoke up immediately and said, "Well, you know a lot more vocabulary than I did."
Mr. LIEBELER. Other witnesses have testified that Marina was not always entirely considerate of Oswald's feelings in the presence of others. Would you think that would be a fair statement?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, I seldom saw them in the presence of others.
Mr. LIEBELER. In the presence of others--I mean yourself.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. In the incident you have just related, of course, is an example.
Mrs. PAINE. I would say that it is an example and I am trying to think of others that I can make a generalization. I can't make a real generalization like that, and the reason I said, "In front of others," is because I do recall also, and I testified to this, that when they first went down to New Orleans he got an apartment for her and I felt he was very anxious that she like it, and her responses to him were just simply not as enthusiastic as it was clear he had hoped. This was not embarrassing in front of someone else in a sense it wasn't that noticeable a thing, but I did feel that she wasn't trying very hard to understand his hope to please her.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would it be a fair statement in your opinion that in point of fact both of these people were more interested in tearing each other down than they were in complementing each other or in trying to accommodate themselves to each other or to work out some sort of sincere relationship between themselves?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't think you can be that curt about it. Marina never did speak to me about wanting to leave him. She spoke, and this appears in her letters too, of wishing to get along and spoke and wrote that she was encouraged that relations seemed better. It seemed to me that she accepted this as a situation a good deal short of ideal but nonetheless the one she was in and one she was to work with.
Mr. LIEBELER. My characterization assumed a continuance of the relationship. A simple solution perhaps to many situations like this, of course, is for people to leave each other. But while they were together--I'm not trying to get you to say that this is so--I have never seen them together, of course.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. But I have seen other people in whose behavior I might find some similarities to the Oswalds or what I think the Oswalds' situation might have been on the basis of the testimony we have had. But also, you said before there was a general coolness between them--Oswald would argue about the ketchup. You indicated something about the ketchup.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Little things like this: Marina made a statement in front of you that your Russian was getting better and Oswald's was getting worse, and of course, the testimony that Marina gave herself about what happened between them--I am wondering if you know Marina Oswald or Oswald well enough to make a judgment about this sort of thing.
Mrs. PAINE. Well, I think I don't, and it's my guess that there was a lot more argument and contention between them than what I saw, just judging from what I have heard other people have said about it. I did see them trade barbs or comments and in that sense the answer was "yes" to your question of did they seem willing or out to hurt one another. I can't remember just how you phrased it. They were certainly not proceeding toward a mature relationship though----
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Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina ever say anything to you about sexual relations
between herself and Oswald?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you testified about that previously?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you care to tell us?
Mrs. PAINE. I will say this, that it is part of what convinced me that she was interested in helping the relationship. We talked about going to Planned Parenthood to get contraceptive information there 6 weeks after the birth of Rachel, that is, we were to go then for that. It must have been myself that suggested that she discuss with one of the counselors there her feelings about their sexual relationship.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you her feelings about the sexual relationship?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, I think I'll answer that simply--I don't think--let me say that I feel that the exposure of her private life has been considerable and should be limited to what is pertinent, and I think what is pertinent is whether she thought she would stay with him or not, and whether she planned to try to.
Mr. LIEBELER. Other witnesses have testified to us that Marina said in front of Oswald and in front of them that Oswald was not a satisfactory man in terms of sexual relations with her and that she did not obtain satisfaction with him and that he was, as far as she was concerned, much less than a man in his sexual relations with her, and I wonder if she told you some of those things.
Mrs. PAINE. Surely nothing was said in his presence and I am shocked to hear that she discussed it in his presence with other people, which sounds like an attempt simply to injure him rather than an attempt to help the situation that needed help. Now, no doubt my own attitudes affect how a person talks to me. She may have sensed that I was interested in a reconciliation, and their feelings, and would have known that I would not have accepted this, or perhaps not wanted to put it that way with respect to the denouncement of him, but it certainly was not put that way.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did she suggest to you that she was not satisfied with her sexual relations with Oswald?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; she did.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did she ever tell you anything about the separation that occurred between herself and Oswald in the fall of 1962 in November?
Mrs. PAINE. She mentioned that she had once left him.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you any of the details of it?
Mrs. PAINE. Probably very few of the details--I didn't know to whom she went. She described him as being ashen and shocked when she actually did walk out and then as pleading with her to come back, after a week, which she did, and that he said everything would be different and that she commented that it wasn't different and that was virtually all that was said about it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did she ever mention George De Mohrenschildt to you?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, that's how I met her.
Mr. LIEBELER. You know De Mohrenschildt yourself?
Mrs. PAINE. I have met him once at a gathering where I first met the Oswalds, so I knew that they knew them--they were the mutual friend between the hosts of the evening party.
Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Glover?
Mrs. PAINE. And the Oswalds, but that's the only time I have seen the De Mohrenschildts.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did she ever say anything to you about De Mohrenschildt?
Mrs. PAINE. You mean that that might have been to whom she went?
Mr. LIEBELER. I just want to know if she ever discussed De Mohrenschildt with you?
Mrs. PAINE. I recall her discussing a child. Now, this is what I am not sure about, again my understanding of her Russian may have interfered. She talked, I think, Mrs. De Mohrenschildt has a child or it may be his, and that this person is married and has a child, but I never got that straight as to who was married.
Mr. LIEBELER. She never discussed her own feelings about De Mohrenschildt?
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Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did she ever indicate that De Mohrenschildt was in any way involved or related to the separation that occurred between herself and her husband?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. I don't think I have any more questions. However, I would like to ask you one more.
You have previously been questioned about and have heard about a supposed telephone call that was supposed to have been made from Michael Paine's office to your home shortly after the assassination, and I do not represent that I have knowledge of such call--that such call was ever made, but as you know, there were rumors to the effect that this man and woman together in this conversation--that one of them said that he wasn't really responsible for the assassination and they both knew who was and I think both you and Michael have testified about this before and have denied that there was any such telephone conversation between you and anyone.
Was there a telephone conversation of any kind between you and Michael between your residence and Michael's office on November 22 or November 23, 1963?
Mrs. PAINE. I have testified to the fact that Michael called--I don't know whether it was from the cafeteria where he had been eating or more likely from his office, to my home, on the 22d. He had learned of the assassination at lunchtime and called to tell me to find out if I knew it, and this was the entire substance of the conversation. I told him I did know--from watching TV.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was that the only telephone conversation between those two numbers on those 2 days that you know of?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever thought or had reason to believe that Marina Oswald was responsible in any way for Oswald's assassinating the President?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you never meant to suggest anything or never said anything that would suggest that to Michael or anybody else?
Mrs. PAINE. No---never--that has absolutely not occurred to me.
Mr. LIEBELER. Of course; my question doesn't mean to imply that she is so responsible. Had you and Michael ever discussed Oswald's alleged attack on General Walker?
Mrs. PAINE. You mean since the assassination of President Kennedy--have we discussed it?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes--at any time.
Mrs. PAINE. I suppose we have--I'm sure we have talked of it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Michael ever indicate to you in any way that he had knowledge of Oswald's attack on General Walker prior to November 22, 1963?
Mrs. PAINE. I would be absolutely certain he had not--his indications were such that he had no such information.
Mr. LIEBELER. By that answer you mean to say, one, that he did not indicate to you before the assassination that he did have knowledge, and, two, after the assassination when it became known that Oswald had been involved in the General Walker shooting, Michael didn't indicate then that he had had any prior knowledge of it?
Mrs. PAINE. That's correct. Of course, it wasn't until several days--more than a week after the assassination that something was printed about Oswald there having been involved in an attempt on Walker.
Mr. LIEBELER. But as far as you know, Michael knew nothing about that until he found out about it in the newspaper?
Mrs. PAINE. That's right.
Mr. LIEBELER. When the Dallas police and other authorities came out to your house, they eventually took all of Oswald's personal effects, did they not?
Mrs. PAINE. No; they did not.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have anything left in your house that belonged to Oswald?
Mrs. PAINE. No; they were eventually taken by Robert Oswald in company
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with John Thorne and Jim Martin. That was probably the first weekend in December, or at least 2 weeks after the assassination--more likely 3.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall what was among these things that Robert Oswald and Mr. Martin took?
Mrs. PAINE. They took the clothes from the closet, boxes and things that I ,did not look into. I have heard from the police that it also included an old camera which they had to chase later and went up to Robert Oswald's to find it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Were there any newspapers or magazines or anything like that, copies of The Militant or The Worker?
Mrs. PAINE. I did not see---most of what was done was what was put in. I busied myself in the bedroom getting out what was to go--what was the Oswald's property.
Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald did, of course, receive copies of The Worker and The Militant at your address?
Mrs. PAINE. I had seen that he received The Worker. I had never opened The Militant. I noticed on November 23 when I looked at the pile of second class mail and third class mail that was waiting for him to come that weekend that it included a copy of The Militant--that was the first I had noticed. This is after it had been in the newspaper.
Mr. LIEBELER. You don't remember which issue of The Militant that was, do you?
Mrs. PAINE. It must have been the current one.
Mr. LIEBELER. What happened to that?
Mrs. PAINE. I threw it away, along with The Worker and a Russian paper, I guess. It was unopened and still in its jacket.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember when it had come?
Mrs. PAINE. During the week--well, no; it could have been during the 2 weeks since he hadn't been there over the weekend.
Mr. LIEBELER. Of course, he did come up on Thursday night?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, it wasn't discussed and it wasn't pointed out then.
Mr. LIEBELER. Well, how did he usually handle this problem with the mail--he was accustomed to receiving these pieces--the issues of the newspaper, at your address, wasn't he?
Mrs. PAINE. I handed it to him or laid them on the couch for him to look at when he arrived on Friday night.
Mr. LIEBELER. But he hadn't looked at these newspapers that had come during the period from his last visit to Thursday?
Mrs. PAINE. That's right; he had not been there.
Mr. LIEBELER. He didn't look at those on Thursday?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. How many newspapers did you throw away, do you remember what they were?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, I recall particularly The Militant and The Worker and it seems to me there was the Russian Minsk paper too, but I'm not certain.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was there just one copy of The Militant?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you don't remember when it had come?
Mrs. PAINE. No
Mr. LIEBELER. How many copies of The Worker?
Mrs. PAINE. One.
Mr. LIEBELER. I believe that's all. Thank you for coming in.
Mrs. PAINE. All right.
ruth's daughter's comments
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Article 12 of 26 in
alt.conspiracy.jfk
Re: john is incapable of learning
Vincent T Bugliosi <john.deagle@gmail.com>
Today 6:54 PM
| References: |
On Saturday, February 1, 2014 6:50:41 PM UTC-5, tomnln wrote: > Vincent T Bugliosi <john.deagle@gmail.com> wrote: > > > On Saturday, February 1, 2014 6:01:03 PM UTC-5, tomnln wrote: > > > > the secret service advised marina to stay away from ruth because she > > > > had > > > > > > > > cia leanings ! ! ! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > you really don't know anything about thre official evidence/testimony > > > > in > > > > > > > > the 26 volumes do you john ! ! ! > > > > > > > > ======================================================================= > > > > ==== > > > > > > > > ====John McAdams <john.mcadams@marquette.edu> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Needless to say, buffs hate Ruth Paine. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They typically think she was some sort of CIA spook. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One example (of many) comes from a presentation that one Steve Jones > > > > > > > > > made during a COPA conference. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://spot.acorn.net/jfkplace/09/fp.back_issues/26th_Issue/paine.htm > > > > > l > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <Quote on> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Perhaps the most compelling statement Jones made during his > > > > > > > > > presentation followed this. "The friend told me that the only time > > > > > > > > > Ruth ever even cracked the least bit about the Kennedy assassination > > > > > > > > > was once when she said, she kind of, with tears in her eyes, she > > > > > said, > > > > > > > > > 'My daughter isn't speaking to me any more, and the reason why she > > > > > > > > > isn't is because she says I really need to come to grips with the > > > > > evil > > > > > > > > > that I've been associated with in my life.' And this was said during > > > > > > > > > the context of a discussion of the Kennedy assassination. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "And when the friend tried to probe further, and said 'What evil? > > > > > What > > > > > > > > > do you mean?' then Ruth clammed up, didn't say another word. But the > > > > > > > > > indication was clear to the friend that it had to do with some kind > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > evil that Ruth didn't want to talk about, what Ruth perceived as an > > > > > > > > > evil that had to do with the Kennedy assassination. And the friend > > > > > got > > > > > > > > > the clear impression that it wasn't Lee Harvey Oswald that she was > > > > > > > > > talking about." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <End Quote> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So Paine's daughter cut off relations because she believed that Ruth > > > > > > > > > was a JFK assassination co-conspirator? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thomas Mellon actually talked to Ruth's daughter. He reports: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <Quote on> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One newsgroup legend claims an estrangement between Ruth and her > > > > > > > > > daughter, who supposedly knows the untold "truth" of her mother's > > > > > > > > > involvement in the assassination. But Marin Paine (as Lynn now calls > > > > > > > > > herself) explains the distance in more ordinary mother-daughter > > > > > terms. > > > > > > > > > "My real problem with being around my mother a lot is that I'm really > > > > > > > > > trying to be a different person than I was when I was a kid. . . . I > > > > > > > > > can say she's a nice person and I approve a lot of her values and all > > > > > > > > > that stuff, but [at] just an emotional level she hits trigger buttons > > > > > > > > > that I haven't found the cure for." Marin's allergies tend to act up > > > > > > > > > during concentrated dealings with Ruth. (MRS. PAINE'S GARAGE, pp. > > > > > > > > > 159-160) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <End Quote> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's one of the nastier things about the buff subculture: the > > > > > > > > > willingness to smear and attack people whom they suspect. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > .John > > > > > > > > > ----------------------- > > > > > > > > > http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > -------------------- http://NewsReader.Com/ -------------------- > > > > > > > > Usenet Newsgroup Service $9.95/Month 30GB > > > > > > She was a school psychologist Rossley. Smarten up and read the official > > > testimony. Stop acting like a mental midget. > > =========================================================================== > > ==== how come you're scared to debate official evidence/testimony with me? > > ? > > > > afraid i'll fucking bury you? ? ? > > =========================================================================== 18 Kennedy Assassination Chronicles NEW EVIDENCE Regarding Ruth and Michael Paine by Steve Jones I would like present several new items of evidence regarding the Paine’s that I have discovered since the last Paine panel convened in 1996, and also share how efforts by myself and others to get the Paine’s deposed for testimony before the ARRB fell on deaf ears. The first item of evidence regards conversations that I had with a close personal friend of Ruth Paine. These conversations took place in the spring and summer of 1997. The friend asked me never to reveal her iden tity due to fear of possible repercussions. This friend got to know Ruth very well in Nicaragua during the early 90s when they both were volun teering for the organization Pro-Nica. This was one of the various Chris tian peace organizations that were trying to help the people of that belea guered nation in the wake of the war between the Contras and the Sandanistas. Over the course of several months this friend shared with me the following information about Ruth that helped to either confirm or clarify previous leads that have been developed by other Paine research ers and myself: 1. Everyone in Pro-Nica, including this friend, thought that Ruth was working there in some type of intelligence gathering capac ity. Ruth would take copious notes of everything she saw or heard; she asked people many inappropriate personal questions as if she were trying to gather information; and she took photographs of people for supposed purposes that were later proven to be false. She was confronted about this but consistently and vehe mently denied that she had anything to do with the CIA or any other governmental intelligence agency. Normally when an agent or asset was outedthey would quietly leave in order to avoid further embarrassment. But since Ruth never admitted her guilt and refused to leave, she was instead asked to take a leave of absence. When she was taken to a R&R camp in nearby Costa Rica, she was asked to leave because they, too, suspected that she was an agent. Ruth returned to Nicaragua and finished her tour of duty and then left for the U.S. where she continued her relationship with this friend. 2. Upon returning to the U.S. she admitted to her friend that her father had worked for the CIA as an “executive agent.” Appar ently while he was traveling abroad for Nationwide Insurance and then later while working for the Agency for International Development he would gather intelligence information for the agency. Barbara LaMonica, Carol Hewett and myself had previ- Continued on page 20 Steve Jones holds a B.A. in History from Lebanon Valley College, Annville, PA; an ordained Lutheran minister and a Fellow in the Association of Professional Chaplains and is a chaplain at the Southeastern Pennsylvania Veterans' Center in PA. Jones began studying the Kennedy assassination in 1983 after reading Best Evidence by David Lifton and has been researching Ruth and Michael Paine since 1994. He has been published in Probe, The Fourth Decade, Open Secrets, and also in the Humanist magazine. TOPIC: Intelligence connections for Ruth Paine, her work in Nicaragua, her ties to eastern power structure and the ARRB’s lack of interest in securing a deposition from the Paines. ously uncovered documented evidence that the CIA had ap proached her father to run an educational co-operative alliance in Vietnam in 1957, and that her father’s AID field reports had been routed through the CIA. Ruth’s friend has now conclusively confirmed our prior research. We also have documented evidence that Ruth’s sister worked for the CIA as a staff psychologist in 1961, but Ruth never mentioned her sister to her friend. 3. The friend would often try to get Ruth to open up more about the Kennedy assassination but all Ruth would say was that she had old copies of LIFEmagazine that would tell anyone all they needed to know. There was, however, one occasion when the friend tried to bring up the assassination when Ruth began to say how sad she was that her daughter (then about 40) was estranged from her. Ruth said that her daughter told her that she refused to talk to her until “she came to grips with the evil that she had been associated with.” The friend said that Ruth had tears in her eyes when she said this and was certain that this was a veiled refer ence to the Kennedy assassination. When the friend tried to gen tly probe further, Ruth refused to talk about the subject. 4. Ruth told her friend that every summer she would take a long driving trip from her home in the south to the northeast to visit friends and relatives. This seems to discredit my theory that her long summer vacation in 1963 had any clandestine purpose. I finally decided to ask the friend if she would serve as a go between with Ruth and she agreed. I sent her several articles that Carol, Barbara, and I had written on the Paine’s (and some key documents) and asked her to show this material to Ruth. Ruth was due to visit her friend in the near future. Suddenly, out of blue, the friend called me and told me that Ruth had cancelled her planned visit. From then on the friend seemed very reluctant to talk to me anymore. I eventually cut off contact with her, sens ing fear and apprehension on her part. The second line of evidence regards an FBI document dated 12-3- 63, stating that the FBI had interviewed two friends of the Paine’s who vouched for their innocence in having anything to do with the assassina tion. The friends were Fred and Nancy Osborn. It just so happened that Fred’s father, Fred Osborn Sr., was a friend and associate of Allen Dulles.
> -------------------- http://NewsReader.Com/ -------------------- > > Usenet Newsgroup Service $9.95/Month 30GB I'm afraid that if I defeat you you'll have a heart attack. I have no time for this silliness.
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