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SYLVIA
ODIO Volume XI TESTIMONY
OF SYLVIA ODIO
The testimony of Sylvia Odio was taken at 9 a.m., on July 22, 1964, in
the office of the
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you please rise and take the oath? Do you solemnly
swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole
truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mrs. ODIO. Yes; I do.
Mr. LIEBELER. Please sit down. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am an
attorney on the staff of the President's Commission investigating the
assassination
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President Kennedy. I have been authorized to take your testimony by the
Commission, pursuant to authority granted to the Commission by Executive Order
11130 dated November 29, 1963, and joint resolution of Congress No. 137.
Under the rules of the Commission, you are entitled to have an attorney
present, if you wish one. You are also entitled to 3 days' notice of the
hearing, and you are not required to answer any question that you think might
incriminate you or might violate some other privilege you may have. I think the
Secret Service did call you, or Martha Joe Stroud, here in the U.S. attorney's
office, called you and gave you notice.
Mrs. ODIO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you wish to have an attorney present?
Mrs. ODIO. No; I don't think so.
Mr. LIEBELER. We want to ask you some questions about the possibility
that you saw Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mrs. ODIO. Before you start, let me give you a letter of my father's
which he wrote me from prison. You can have it. It was very funny, because at
the time he wrote it, the FBI incident happened a week later. I told my father
this man had been in my house and he introduced himself as your friend; and he
wrote me back in December telling me that such people were not his friends, and
he said not to receive anybody in my house, and not any of them were his
friends, and he didn't know those people. At the time I did give the names of
one or two, and he wrote back, "I actually don't know who they are."
Mr. LIEBELER. Let's come to this during the course of the questioning,
but I am glad you brought it up. I do want to get to it, because it may help us
determine who these people were.
Mrs. ODIO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. First of all, would you tell us where you were born?
Mrs. ODIO. In
Mr. LIEBELER. Approximately when?
Mrs. ODIO. 1937.
Mr. LIEBELER. How long did you live in
Mrs. ODIO. Until, well, I studied in the
Mr. LIEBELER. 1960?
Mrs. ODIO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Then you left
Mrs. ODIO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you come to in the
Mrs. ODIO. We first came to
Mr. LIEBELER. Then from
Mrs. ODIO. From
Mr. LIEBELER. So that you have been in
Mrs. ODIO. That's right.
Mr. LIEBELER. You indicated that you had gone to school in the
Mrs. ODIO. Eden Hall Convent of The Sacred Heart, in
Mr. LIEBELER. How long did you go to school there?
Mrs. ODIO. Three years.
Mr. LIEBELER. That is what, high school?
Mrs. ODIO. That's right. From 1951 to 1954.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was that period of 3 years the only time you were in the
Mrs. ODIO. Excuse me, when I got married in 1957, I stayed 8 months--9
months in
Mr. LIEBELER. So that you lived in the
Mrs. ODIO. That's right.
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Mr. LIEBELER. You had been in
Mrs. ODIO. No; from 1951 to 1954, when I graduated.
Mr. LIEBELER. And for the period in
Mrs. ODIO. In 1960, December 25, 1960.
Mr. LIEBELER. So after you came in December of 1960, you went to
Mrs. ODIO. That's right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us briefly what your educational background
is, Mrs. Odio?
Mrs. ODIO. Well, I had grammar school in
Mr. LIEBELER. How much training did you have in law?
Mrs. ODIO. I had almost 3 years.
Mr. LIEBELER Of law study in
Mrs. ODIO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. My record indicates that on December 18, 1963, you were
interviewed by two agents of the FBI, Mr. James P. Hoary and Bardwell D. Odum.
Do you remember that?
Mrs. ODIO. That's correct.
Mr. LIEBELER It is my understanding that they interviewed you at your
place of work, is that correct?
Mrs. ODIO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER Do you remember approximately what they asked you and what
you told them?
Mrs. ODIO. I think I remember. Not exactly, but I think I can recall the
conversation.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you give us the content of that conversation, as best
you can recall
Mrs. ODIO. They told me they were coming because of the assassination of
President Kennedy, that they had news that I knew or I had known Lee Harvey
Oswald. And I told them that I had not known him as Lee Harvey Oswald, but that
he was introduced to me as Leon Oswald. And they showed me a picture of Oswald
and a picture of Ruby. I did not know Ruby, but I did recall Oswald. They asked
me about my activities in JURE. That is the Junta Revolutionary, and it is led
by Manolo Ray. I told him that I did belong to this organization because my
father and mother had belonged in
Mr. LIEBELER. Who was it that you had seen in
Mrs. ODIO. Mr. Ray, I had seen. He was a very close friend of my father
and mother. He hid in my house several times in
So they asked me to tell him how I came to know Oswald, and I told them
that it was something very brief and I could not recall the time, exact date. I
still can't. We more or less have established that it was the end of September.
And, of course, my sister had recognized him at the same time I did, but I did
not say anything to her. She came very excited one day and said, "That is
the man that was in my house." And I said, "Yes; I remember."
Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us all the
circumstances surrounding the event when Oswald came to your house.
Mrs. ODIO. Well, I had been having little groups of Cubans coming to my
house who have been asking me to help them in JURE. They were going to open a
revolutionary paper here in
Those are my activities before Oswald came. Of course, all the Cubans
knew
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I was involved in JURE, but it did not have a lot of sympathy in
Mr. LIEBELER. Because of what now?
Mrs. ODIO. Because I was sympathetic with Ray and this movement. Ray has
always had the propaganda that he is a leftist and that he is Castro without
Castro. So at that time I was planning to move over to Oak Cliff because it was
much nearer to my work in
It either was a Thursday or 'a Friday. It must have been either one of
those days, in the last days of September. And I was getting dressed to go out
to a friend's house, and she was staying to babysit.
Like I said, the doorbell rang and she went over--she had a housecoat
on--she wasn't dressed properly--and came back and said, "Sylvia, there are
three men at the door, and one seems to be an American, the other two seem to be
Cubans. Do you know them ?" So I put a housecoat on and stood at the door.
I never opened my door unless I know who they are, because I have had occasions
where Cubans. have introduced themselves as having arrived from
So I went to the door, and he said, "Are you Sarita Odio?" And
I said, "I am not. That is my sister studying at the
This at the time struck me funny, because their faces did not seem
familiar, and I asked them for their names. One of them said his name was
Leopoldo. He said that was his war name. In all this underground, everybody has
a war name. This was done for safety in
And the other one did give me his name, but I can't recall. I have been
trying to recall. It was something like Angelo. I have never been able to
remember, and I couldn't be exact on this name, but the other one I am exact on;
I remember perfectly.
Mr. LIEBELER. Let me ask you this before you go ahead with the story.
Which one of the men told you that they were members of JURE and did most of the
talking? Was it the American?
Mrs. ODIO. The American had not said a word yet.
Mr. LIEBELER. Which one of the Cubans?
Mrs. ODIO. The American was in the middle. They were leaning against the
staircase. There was a tall one. Let me toll you, they both looked very greasy
like the kind of low Cubans, not educated at all. And one was on the heavier
side and had black hair. I recall one of them had glasses, if I remember. We
have been trying to establish, my sister and I, the identity of this man. And
one of them, the tall one, was the one called Leopoldo. Mr. LIEBELER. He did
most of the talking?
Mrs. ODIO. He did most of the talking. The other one kept quiet, and the
American, we will call him Leon, said just a few little words in Spanish, trying
to be cute, but very few, like "Hola," like that in Spanish.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have a chain on the door, or was the door
completely opened?
Mrs. ODIO. I had a chain.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was the chain fastened?
Mrs. ODIO. No; I unfastened it after a little while when they told me
they were members of JURE, and were
trying to let me have them come into the house. When I said no, one of them
said, "We are very good friends of your father." This struck me,
because I didn't think my father could have such kind of friends, unless he knew
them from anti-Castro activities. He gave me so many details about where they
saw my father and what activities he was in. I mean, they gave me almost
incredible details about things that somebody who knows him really would or that
somebody informed well knows. And after a little while, after they mentioned my
father, they started talking about the American.
He said, "You are working in the underground." And I said,
"No, I am sorry
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say I am not working in the underground." And he said, "We wanted you
to meet this American. His name is Leon Oswald." He repeated it twice. Then
my sister Annie by that time was standing near the door. She had come to see
what was going on. And they introduced him as an American who was very much
interested in the Cuban cause. And let me see, if I recall exactly what they
said about him. I don't recall at the time I was at the door things about him.
I recall a telephone call that I had the next day from the so-called
Leopoldo, so I cannot remember the conversation at the door about this American.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did your sister hear this man introduced as Leon Oswald?
Mrs. ODIO. She says she doesn't recall. She could not say that it is
true. I mean, even though she said she thought I had mentioned the name very
clearly, and I had mentioned the names of the three men.
Mr. LIEBELER. But she didn't remember it?
Mrs. ODIO. No; she said I mentioned it, because I made a comment. This I
don't recall. I said, "I am going to see Antonio Alentado," which is
one of the leaders of the JURE here in
Mr. LIEBELER. Did your sister see the men?
Mrs. ODIO. She saw the three of them.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you discussed this with her since that time?
Mrs. ODIO. I just had to discuss it because it was bothering me. I just
had to know.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did she think it was Oswald?
Mrs. ODIO. Well, her reaction to it when Oswald came on television, she
almost passed out on me, just like I did the day at work when I learned about
the assassination of the President. Her reaction was so obvious that it was him,
I mean. And my reaction, we remember Oswald the day he came to my house because
he had not shaved and he had a kind of a very, I don't know how to express it,
but some little hairs like if you haven't shaved, but it is not a thick
moustache, but some kind of shadow. That is something I noticed. And he was
wearing--the other ones were wearing white dirty shirts, but he was wearing a
long sleeved shirt.
Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of shirt was it, a white shirt?
Mrs. ODIO. No; it was either green or blue, and he had it rolled up to
here.
Mr. LIEBELER. Almost to his elbows?
Mrs. ODIO. No; less than that, just the ends of the sleeves.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he have a tie?
Mrs. ODIO. No tie.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was it a sport shirt, or working shirt?
Mrs. ODIO. He had it open. I don't know if he had a collar or not, but it
was open. And the other one had a white undershirt. One of them was very hairy.
Where was I? I just want to remember everything.
Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned when your sister saw Oswald's picture on
television that she almost passed out. Did she recognize him, do you know, as
the man that had been in the apartment?
Mrs. ODIO. She said, "Sylvia, you know that man?" And I said,
"Yes," and she said, "I know him." "He was the one that
came to our door, and it couldn't be so, could it?"
That was our first interview. We were very much concerned after that. We
were concerned and very scared, because I mean, it was such a shock.
This man, the other one, the second Cuban, took out a letter written in
Spanish, and the content was something like we represent the revolutionary
counsel, and we are making a big movement to buy arms for Cuba and to help
overthrow the dictator Castro, and we want you to translate this letter and
write it in English and send a whole lot of them to different industries to see
if we can get some results.
This same petition had been asked of me by Alentado who was one of the
leaders of JURE, here in
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Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned this Alentado who was one of the JURE
representatives here in
Mrs. ODIO. His name is Antonio.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know a man by the name of
George Rodriguez Alvareda?
Mrs. ODIO Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Who is he?
Mrs. ODIO. He is another member of JURE. And at the time, a little after
that, after December. I was more in contact with him, and I will tell you why
later. They are all members of JURE here in
And so I asked him if they were sent by him, and he said, "No".
And I said, "Do you know Eugeino?" This is the war name for_ _
_ _.That is his war name and everybody underground knows him as Eugenio.
So I didn't mention his real name. He didn't know.
Mr. LIEBELER. Who did you ask this?
Mrs. ODIO. I asked these men
when they came to the door--I asked if they had been sent by Alentado, became I
explained to them that he had already asked me to do the letters and he said no.
And I said, "Were you sent by Eugenio," and he said no. And I
said, "Were you sent by Ray," and he said no. And I said, "Well,
is this on your own?"
And he said, "We have just come from
And I said, "Are you interested in our movement?" And he said,
"Yes."
This I had not remembered until lately. I had not spoken much to him and
I said, "If you will excuse me, I have to leave," and I repeated,
"I am going to write to my father and tell him you have come to visit
me."
And he said, "Is he still in the
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know which one of the men was driving?
Mrs. ODIO. The tall one, Leopoldo.
Mr. LIEBELER. Leopoldo?
Mrs. ODIO. Yes; oh, excuse me, I forgot something very important. They
kept mentioning that they had come to visit me at such a time of night, it was
almost 9 o'clock, because they were leaving for a trip. And two or three times
they said the same thing.
They said, "We may stay until tomorrow, or we might leave tomorrow
night, but please excuse us for the hour." And he mentioned two or three
times they were leaving for a trip. I didn't ask where, and I had the feeling
they were leaving for Puerto Rico or
Mr. LIEBELER. But they did not indicate where they were going?
Mrs. ODIO. The next day Leopoldo called me. I had gotten home from work,
so I imagine it must have been Friday. And they had come on Thursday. I have
been trying to establish that. He was trying to get fresh with me that night. He
was trying to be too nice, telling me that I was pretty, and he started like
that. That is the way he started the conversation. Then he said, "What do
you think of the American?" And I said, "I didn't think
anything."
And he said, "You know our idea is to introduce him to the
underground in
And he said, "It is so easy to do it." He has told us. And he (Leopoldo)
used two or three bad words, and I wouldn't repeat it in Spanish. And he
repeated again they were leaving for a trip and they would like very much to see
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on their return to
Mr. LIEBELER. He never mentioned the name of Oswald on the telephone?
Mrs. ODIO. He never mentioned his last name. He always referred to the
American or Leon.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he mention his last name the night before?
Mrs. ODIO. Before they left I asked their names again, and he mentioned
their names again.
Mr. LIEBELER. But he did not mention Oswald's name except as
Mrs. ODIO. On the telephone conversation he referred to him as Leon or
American. He said he had been a Marine and he was so interested in helping the
Cubans, and he was terrific. That is the words he more or less used, in Spanish,
that he was terrific. And I don't remember what else he said, or something that
he was coming back or something, and he would see me. It's been a long time and
I don't remember too well, that is more or less what he said.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have an opinion at that time as to why Leopoldo
called you back? What was his purpose in calling you back?
Mrs. ODIO. At first, I thought he was just trying to get fresh with me.
The second time, it never occurred to me until I went to my psychiatrist.
I used to go to see Dr. Einspruch in the
My father and mother are prisoners, and you never know if they can
blackmail you or they are going to get them out of there, if you give them a
certain amount of money. You never know what to expect. I expect anything. Later
on I did establish opinions, because you can't help but establish opinions.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you establish that opinion after the assassination or
before the assassination?
Mrs. ODIO. This first opinion that I mentioned to my psychiatrist, I did
not give it a second thought. I forgot to tell Alentado about it; except 3 days
later I wrote to my father after they came, and mentioned the fact that the two
men had called themselves friends of his. And later in December, because the
letter takes a long time to get here, he writes me back, "I do not know any
of these men. Do not get involved with any of them."
Mr. LIEBELER. You have already given us a copy of the letter that you
received from your father in which he told you that these people were not his
friends, and told you not to get involved with them?
Mrs. ODIO. That's right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell your father the names of these men when you
wrote to him?
Mrs. ODIO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Your father did not, however, mention their names in his
letter, did he?
Mrs. ODIO. He mentioned their war names, because this was the only thing
I knew. I probably put an Americano came too, two Cubans with an American, and I
gave the names of the Cubans.
Mr. LIEBELER. The copy of the letter that you gave to me this morning, we
will mark as Odio Exhibit No. 1.
Mrs. ODIO. He mentioned in the second paragraph, "You are very alone
there in.
Mr. LIEBELER. I have initialed the letter and I would like to have you
put your initials under my initials for the purpose of identifying the exhibit.
Mrs. ODIO. Yes, okay.
Mr. LIEBELER. The letter is in Spanish, and you have underlined certain
parts of it about three-quarters of the way down, in Spanish. Would you read
that translation to us?
Mrs. ODIO. "Please tell me again who it is that calls himself my
friend. Be careful. I do not have any friends that have been near me lately, not
even in
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Mr. LIEBELER. Does he say their "full names" in there?
Mrs. ODIO. Their full names again, which means I had given their war
names.
Mr. LIEBELER. So you must have given the name Leopold?
Mrs. ODIO. He says, "You are very alone with no man to protect you,
and you can be easily fooled." That is more or less what he says.
We are 10 brothers and sisters, a big family, and this has been very sad
for both of them.
I have little brothers in He
is still more worried, and he was always thinking that somebody could come in my
door. He also had a thought that somebody could come by demanding money or
something like that. You can
probably have somebody who knows Spanish do a better translation.
Mr. LIEBELER. This letter is dated December 25, 1963, is that correct?
Mrs. ODIO. That's right.
Mr. LIEBELER. And it is dated Nueva Gerona. Where is that?
Mrs. ODIO. The capital of
Mr. LIEBELER. Your father is a prisoner there?
Mr. LIEBELER. Are the prisoners permitted to write letters back and
forth?
Mrs. ODIO. One letter a month, on one side.
Mr. LIEBELER. I would presume
that the letters are read by Castro's men?
Mrs. ODIO. They are all read. That is why I did not given him a lot of
details. I managed to write very small so they would have a time reading it,
like he does. You can see how
perfectly he writes a letter.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, let me ask you how you managed to establish that these
men come in late September. You previously stated that you couldn't remember the
date exactly, but you had managed to establish it as being in late September.
Would you tell me the procedure that you went through to establish that
date in your mind?
Mrs. ODIO. I told you my sister Annie was staying with some American
friends. She did not live with me. She had gone to live with the Madlock's. And
I called her many times to come and babysit for me during certain weekends, and
she would come either on a Thursday or Friday, depending on when I called her.
I told her that day that I was going out, but I wanted 'her to start
packing for me because we were moving over to Oak Cliff. It must have been the
last days of September, because we had already packages in the living room. We
had already started to pack to go, and we had to move by the first of October
since my rent was due that day, you see.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you did move?
Mrs. ODIO. We did move the first of October to Oak Cliff.
Mr. LIEBELER. What was the address of the apartment in which you lived
before you moved to Oak Cliff?
Mrs. ODIO. Over in, it was, I am almost sure of the number--
Mrs. ODIO. That's right. The Crestwood Apartments are full of Cubans.
Mr. LIEBELER. You left the Crestwood Apartments as of the first of
October and moved to Oak Cliff?
Mrs. ODIO. That's right exactly.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you are absolutely sure that these men came to your
apartment before the first of October?
Mrs. ODIO. Before the first of October.
Mr. LIEBELER. It would have been sometime toward the end of September,
because you recall that you had already started to pack to move from the
Crestwood Apartments to Oak Cliff?
Mrs. ODIO. The packages were in the living room, and Annie was helping
me.
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375 She
was actually taking things out of the closet when they came. It took a long time
to be sure of that, but I am certain of that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you discussed this with your sister, Annie?
Mrs. ODIO. We had to, yes, sir; and she was convinced it was in late
September. Because she had not come the previous week. For 2 weeks, she had not
come, but had come the last week to help me pack and move.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have a lease on your apartment, at the Crestwood
Apartments?
Mrs. ODIO. No; they don't take you by lease. You give a deposit, and you
lose it if you move before 6 months.
Mr. LIEBELER. Had you lived at the Crestwood
Mrs. ODIO. No. I have told you I moved several times, and it is because
of reasons of my work, and because my children at the time were in Puerto Rico,
I and I went down to get them in Puerto Rico June 29th.
That was exactly the day that I saw Ray again. We had been trying to
establish a contact in
I don't know if this is legal or illegal, I have no idea. But when he
mentioned this fact, I jumped at the possibility that something could be done,
because you kind of get desperate when you see your father and mother in prison,
and you want to do something for them. So I called Eugenio long distance from
Mr. LIEBELER. When was that, approximately? Shortly after you came back
from
Mrs. ODIO. I think I can give you the exact date. This was before I left
for
Mr. LIEBELER. So you say that on June 28 Eugenio arrived from
Mrs. ODIO. He was supposed to have arrived June 14, but he never did, and
I called-two times to make another appointment with Johnny, and he just arrived
in time for me to see him. Then it was a time when we met, not Alentado, the
other one, Alvareda--Rodriguez Alvareda.
So they went to my house. Now, I was living at the time at
Mr. LIEBELER. But he was going to come by
Mrs. ODIO. Yes. So I went to
Mr. LIEBELER. You moved there, after you came back from
Mrs. ODIO. I moved there exactly the end of July, the end of the month,
because I know when I moved, and then it was in August--let's see, I lived there
July, August, and to the last day of September in this Magellan Circle, and then
I moved to Oak Cliff.
Mr. LIEBELER. You actually did meet with Eugenio here in
Mrs. ODIO. Oh, yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Eugenio come to
Mrs. ODIO. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. How many times have you met-with Eugenio here in
Mrs. ODIO. Once.
Mr. LIEBELER. That was in June of 1963?
Mrs. ODIO. That's right.
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Mr. LIEBELER. So it was not Eugenio who was with
Mrs. ODIO. No; I would have known Eugenio. He was a very close friend of
my family and he did underground activity with my mother and father.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever tell anybody that it was Eugenio who had come
to the apartment with
Mrs. ODIO. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Father McKann?
Mrs. ODIO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember that he called you on the telephone?
Mrs. ODIO. Yes; he did call me on the telephone.
Mr. LIEBELER. On April 30, 1964?
Mrs. ODIO. The date, I don't recall. Probably.
Mr. LIEBELER. It was
approximately the end of April or early May of 1964 when he called you from
Mrs. ODIO. From
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember discussing this whole question with him at
that time?
Mrs. ODIO. Yes. He asked me if I was withholding evidence of any kind.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did you
tell him?
Mrs. ODIO. I told him that everything that I knew I had already told him,
and that I didn't know anything else that I could recall that could be important
to you.
Mr. LIEBELER. The only time that you were ever interviewed by anybody in
connection with this was when Agent Hosty came to your place of work that day,
isn't that correct?
Mrs. ODIO. That's correct. But three times I noticed a car standing in
front of my door where I live on
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell Father McKann that one of the men--did you
tell him the names of the men who were there?
Mrs. ODIO. I told him what I knew, the names of the men that I knew.
Mr. LIEBELER. You told him
one was Leopoldo?
Mrs. ODIO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. But you did not tell him that you could identify the other
man as Eugenio?
Mrs. ODIO. That's right.
Mr. LIEBELER. You did not tell him that?
Mrs. ODIO. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, I have a report before me of an interview with Father
McKann by a representative of the
Mrs. ODIO. No. Perhaps he could have misunderstood me, because he has the
same problems with names. Probably I did tell him that the man was not Eugenio.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember discussing with him Eugenio's visit to you
in June?
Mrs. ODIO. I think I discussed it with him, yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. During that telephone conversation?
Mrs. ODIO. Yes; I think I discussed it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell Father McKann that the name Oswald was never
used in your presence by any of these men?
Mrs. ODIO. Never was used except to introduce me, and the time when they
left. They did not refer to him as Oswald.
Mr. LIEBELER. But they did in
fact, introduce him as Leon Oswald?
Mrs. ODIO. And I shook hands with him.
Mr. LIEBELER. That is also what you told Agent Hoary when he interviewed
you on December 18, 1963, and that is indicated in his report?
Mrs. ODIO. Oh, yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, a report that we have from Agent Hosty indicates that
when you told him about Leopoldo's telephone call to you the following day,
376 Page
377 that
you told Agent Hosty that Leopoldo told you he was not going to have anything
more to do with Leon Oswald since
Mrs. ODIO. That's right. He used two tactics with me, and this I have
analyzed. He wanted me to introduce this man. He thought that I had something to
do with the underground, with the big operation, and I could get men into
When I had no reaction to the American, he thought that he would mention
that the man was loco and out of his mind and would be the kind of man that
could do anything like getting underground in Cuba, like killing Castro. He
repeated several times he was an expert shotman. And he said, "We probably
won't have anything to do with him. He is kind of 1oco."
When he mentioned the fact that we should have killed President
Kennedy--and this I recall in my conversation he was trying to play it safe. If
I liked him, then he would go along with me, but if I didn't like him, he was
kind of retreating to see what my reaction was. It was cleverly done.
Mr. LIEBELER. So he actually played both sides of the fence?
Mrs. ODIO. That's right, both sides of the fence.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Leopoldo tell you that
Mrs. ODIO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did he tell you about that?
Mrs. ODIO. He said he had been in the Marines. That is what he said.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he. tell you that
Mrs. ODIO. That's right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever talked to Eugenio about this matter since it
happened?
Mrs. ODIO. No, I have not even contacted him.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is your sister Annie in
Mrs. ODIO. She is coming now the end of July.
Mr. LIEBELER. She is not here now?
Mrs. ODIO. No, she is coming from
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us what her address is in
Mrs. ODIO. Yes. She is in--wait 1 second--
Mr. LIEBELER. How old were these two men that were with
Mrs. ODIO. One of them must have been--he had a mark on his face like, I
can't explain it--his complexion wasn't too soft. He was kind of like as if he
had been in the sun. So he must have been about near 40, one of them.
Mr. LIEBELER. Which one was that?
Mrs. ODIO. But the other one was young. That was the tall one.
Mr. LIEBELER. That was not Leopoldo?
Mrs. ODIO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Alentado was younger?
Mrs. ODIO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. How old was he,
would you say?
Mrs. ODIO. About 34, something like that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now how old would you say Oswald was? Did you form an
opinion about that when you saw him at the time?
Mrs. ODIO. No; I have never thought about it. I mean, I never thought how
old he was. He seemed to be a young man. I mean, not an old man. I would say he
was a young man; yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Could you say how old you thought he was after you saw him
that day in your apartment?
Mrs. ODIO. I can't say that. I can establish in my thoughts; yes, I could
establish an age, but I didn't think of it at the time.
Mr. LIEBELER. What age would you establish you thought about it?
Mrs. ODIO. Oh, 34 or 35.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you read the newspapers and watched television since
the assassination and observed Oswald?
Mrs. ODIO. I read some of it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you read how old he was?
Mrs. ODIO. I don't even know what age he is.
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Mr. LIEBELER. About how tall was he?
Mrs. ODIO. He wasn't too tall. He was maybe 4 inches taller than I am.
Mr. LIEBELER. How tall are you?
Mrs. ODIO. I am 5 feet 6 inches.
Mr. LIEBELER. So you think he
was about 5 feet 10?
Mrs. ODIO. Probably.
Mr. LIEBELER About how was he built? Was he a heavy man or a light man?
Mrs. ODIO. He was kind of a skinny man, because the shirt looked big on
him, like it was borrowed.
Mr. LIEBELER. Like it was borrowed from somebody else?
Mrs. ODIO. Yes; that is the impression he gave me, because it kind of
hung loose.
Mr. LIEBELER. Didn't fit well?
Mrs. ODIO. It didn't fit.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever had anything to do with the DRE movement here
in
Mrs. ODIO. Students Revolutionary Council, not at all.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know any representatives of the DRE?
Mrs. ODIO. I just knew one.
Mr. LIEBELER. Who was that?
Mrs. ODIO. Sarah Castilo. Now, I have heard about the directorate in New
Orleans, because I have family there and they told me about all the incidents
about him in New Orleans, about Oswald giving propaganda in the street and how
he was down in front of a judge and caused a fight with Carlos Bringuier, and
that, of course, this man had been working pro-Castro in this Fair Play for
Cuba.
Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald, you mean?
Mrs. ODIO. Oswald.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Carlos?
Mrs. ODIO. Yes; I have met him. I don't think he would remember me, but I
know who Carlos Bringuier is. They call him Carlitos.
Mr. LIEBELER. When did you meet him?
Mrs. ODIO. I think it was a long time ago in
Mr. LIEBELER. You have never met him here in the
Mrs. ODIO. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Who in
Mrs. ODIO. My family discussed it in
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you read about that in the newspapers?
Mrs. ODIO. No; I haven't. This I know from my family, the information we
heard from
Mr. LIEBELER. How much of your family are living in New
Mrs. ODIO. I have an uncle and a cousin; a married cousin.
Mr. LIEBELER. Which one of them told you about this?
Mrs. ODIO. I think it was my uncle.
Mr. LIEBELER. Were you there at that time?
Mrs. ODIO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. In
Mrs. ODIO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. What is your uncle's name?
Mrs. ODIO. Agustin Guitar.
Mr. LIEBELER. When was this that you discussed this with him?
Mrs. ODIO. February.
Mr. LIEBELER. In February of 1964?
Mrs. ODIO. Yes. I remember that, because I had just come out of an
operation.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know a man by the name of Joaquin
Mrs. ODIO. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Emanuel Salvat?
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379
Mrs. ODIO. I have heard about him very much. I know who he is, but I
don't know him.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you associate him with one of the Cuban organizations,
Salvat?
Mrs. ODIO. If I have heard something about him, it has been attached to
some organization.
Mr. LIEBELER. You don't remember which one?
Mrs. ODIO. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would it be the DRE?
Mrs. ODIO. I can't say for sure.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know a woman by the name of Anna Silvera?
Mrs. ODIO. I have heard about her, too.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any idea how these three men came to your
apartment? Have you ever thought about it and tried to establish any contact
that they might have had with someone else that would have told them to come to
your apartment?
Mrs. ODIO. They were coming from
Mr. LIEBELER. They came directly from
Mrs. ODIO. If it was true. It is very easy to find out any Cuban's in
Mr. LIEBELER. But you have no actual knowledge as to how these men came
by your address?
Mrs. ODIO. I kind of asked them, and they told me because they knew my
family. That is how they established the conversation. They knew him and wanted
to help me, and knew I belonged to JURE and all this.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, can you remember anything else about the incident when
Leon and the two men came to your apartment, or about the telephone call that
you got from Leopoldo, that you haven't already told me about?
Mrs. ODIO. No. If I have forgotten something, but I think all the
important things I have told you, like the trip, that they were leaving for a
trip. And this struck me funny, because why would they want to meet me, if they
were leaving for some reason or purpose. And it has been a long time. You don't
think about these things every day and I am trying real hard to remember
everything I can.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now is there
anything else that you think we should know about that we haven't already asked
you about in connection with this whole affair?
Mrs. ODIO. No. It would be involving my opinion, but anything that is
real facts of the thing, that really happened.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is this the only time you ever saw the man called Leon
Oswald?
Mrs. ODIO. The only time.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever told anybody else that you have seen him
other times?
Mrs. ODIO. No, I don't think. It would be silly to withhold any
information. I mean, the involvement was very slight, and look how much involved
you get just from meeting him once. I have a pretty good idea who called the
FBI.
Mr. LIEBELER. About what?
Mrs. ODIO. You see, I did not call the FBI to tell them this fact.
Mr. LIEBELER. Why not?
Mrs. ODIO. I was going to, but I had to get around to it to do it myself,
because at the time everything was so confused and everybody was so excited
about it, and I wanted to wait to see if it was important.
Mr. LIEBELER. Who do you think called the FBI?
Mrs. ODIO. Mrs. Connell, I think.
Mr. LIEBELER. When you were interviewed by the FBI at your place of work,
did you have any opinion about the way that interview was conducted?
Mrs. ODIO. Yes. It brought me a lot of problems in my work. The two men
were extremely polite and nice, the two gentlemen from the FBI. You know
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380 how
people were afraid at the time, and my company, some officials of it were quite
concerned that the FBI should have come to see me.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you discussed with Alentado these two men and how they
came to see you?
Mrs. ODIO. I never talked to him about it. I decided not to. mention
anything after the FBI came to see me, because I thought they were going to
contact him. I think I gave them the address and the telephone number.
Mr. LIEBELER. You gave that to the FBI?
Mrs. ODIO. Yes. He actually wouldn't know anything about it.
Mr. LIEBELER. You say that because you asked these men if they had been
sent by Alentado and they said no?
Mrs. ODIO. That's right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Mrs. Connell that you refer to is Mrs. C. L. Connell, is
that correct?
Mrs. ODIO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. How do you know her?
Mrs. ODIO. It is a strange thing. Everything that has happened to me in
the past year has been very strange. But I came from
Mr. LIEBELER. Which one?
Mrs. ODIO. Sarita. She actually sent part of the money for my trip to
come here to
Mr. LIEBELER. Mrs. Connell?
Mrs. ODIO. Yes. So I met her. We became very, very close friends,
extremely close, and she talked to Dr. Stubblefield and she got me a
psychiatrist which was Dr. Einspruck. I was here 4 months before I went to get
my children. We were close, like I
said.
Mr. LIEBELER. What makes you think she called the FBI about this?
Mrs. ODIO. I am not certain of this, but I did discuss this with her
after it happened, because I trusted her completely. I discussed it and told her
that I was frightened, I didn't know what to do. I did not know if it was
anything of importance that I should tell the FBI. And I was the only
person--she was the only person I told.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell Dr. Einspruch about it?
Mrs. ODIO. Yes; but the things you talk with a doctor in an office, he
will tell you before that he is going to say it. He would have told me, "I
am going to tell the FBI." You have to trust a doctor, especially a
psychiatrist. I know they talked to him later, but I don't think it was him that
called the FBI.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell Mrs. Connell that you had seen Oswald at some
anti-Castro meetings, and that he had made some talks to these groups of
refugees, and that he was very brilliant and clever and captivated the people to
whom he had spoken?
Mrs. ODIO. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. You are sure you never told her that?
Mrs. ODIO. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever seen Oswald at any meetings?
Mrs. ODIO. Never. This is something when you talk to somebody, she
probably was referring--we did have some meetings, yes. John Martino spoke, who
was an American, who was very clever and brilliant. I am not saying that she is
lying at all. When you are excited, you might get all your facts mixed up, and
Martino was one of the men who was in
Mr. LIEBELER. Is that the same man as Johnny Martin?
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381
Mrs. ODIO. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. A different one?
Mrs. ODIO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Who is he?
Mrs. ODIO. Martino is one that has written a book called "I was a
Prisoner in Castro
Mr. LIEBELER. Mrs. Connell?
Mrs. ODIO. Yes; and my sister Annie went, too.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Dr. Einspruch tell you that he had talked to the FBI?
Mrs. ODIO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. About this?
Mrs. ODIO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you roughly what his conversation with the FBI
was?
Mrs. ODIO. He told me that they had asked him if I had hallucinations,
that I was a person who was trying to make up some kind of story. That was the
context of our story. I trusted Dr. Einspruch very much. He always told me the
truth.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you he had told the FBI that you did not have
hallucinations and you had probably not made this up?
Mrs. ODIO. Yes. Other people make it up, but--
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Mr. Einspruch tell you he had discussed this question
with some representatives of the President's Commission?
Mrs. ODIO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you what that conversation was about?
Mrs. ODIO. He told me that they had talked about an hour and a half about
this whole thing, and he told them that he had already told me the whole facts
of the thing, and he said let's not mention it any more. You know what we
discussed. Don't be afraid.
Mr. LIEBELER. Are you Still seeing Dr. Einspruch?
Mrs. ODIO. No; I am through with therapy. He left.
Mr. LIEBELER. He is no longer in
Mrs. ODIO. No; he left for
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell Dr. Einspruch that you had seen Oswald .in
more than one anti-Castro Cuban meeting?
Mrs. ODIO. No; I don't think so, because I have never seen him before
except the day he came to the door.
Mr. LIEBELER. You have never seen him since?
Mrs. ODIO. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. You told us before that you had a fainting spell after you
heard about the assassination. Would you tell us about that, please?
Mrs. ODIO. Well, 'I had been having fainting spells all the past year. I
would pass out for hours, and .this was part of my emotional problems. I was
doing quite well except that I had come back from lunch, and I can, not deny
that the news was a great shock to me, and I did pass out. I was taken in an
ambulance to a hospital in
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you pass out as soon as you had heard that the
President had been shot?
Mrs. ODIO. No; when I started thinking about it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Had you heard that Oswald was involved in it before you
passed out?
Mrs. ODIO. Can
I say something off the record?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.
(Witness talks off the record.)
Mr. LIEBELER. At this point let's go back on the record. You indicated
that you thought perhaps the three men who had come to your apartment had
something to do with the assassination?
Mrs. ODIO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you thought of that before you had the fainting spell?
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Mrs. ODIO. Yes. Of course, I have "psychiatric thinking." My
psychiatrist says I have psychiatric thinking. I mean, I can perceive things
very well.
Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of thinking?
Mrs. ODIO. He says I have tremendous intuition about things and
psychiatric thinking, which has helped me many times. So immediately, for some
reason, in my mind, I established a connection between the two greasy men that
had come to my door and the conversation that the Cubans should have killed
President Kennedy, and I couldn't believe it. I was so upset about it. So
probably the lunch had something to do with it, too, and I was so upset, but
that is probably why I passed out.
Mr. LIEBELER. Had you heard the name Oswald before you passed out?
Mrs. ODIO. No, sir. It was only the connection.
Mr. LIEBELER. You had made the connection in your mind between these
three men that came to your apartment, and the assassination?
Mrs. ODIO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Primarily because of the remarks they had made about how
the Cubans should have assassinated President Kennedy because of the
Mrs. ODIO. That's right.
Mr. LIEBELER. You had not seen any pictures of Oswald or heard his name
prior to the time of your passing out?
Mrs. ODIO. No; I don't recall--maybe you could tell me what the exact
time they mentioned by the radio the name of the suspect. They spoke of a
suspect all the time, but they did not mention any name. And I think I came out
about 8 o'clock that night. They gave me a shot, so I did not know any name
until that night.
Mr. LIEBELER. What time did you pass out?
Mrs. ODIO. I came back from lunch about 5 minutes before I o'clock,
because we had to punch the clock at 1, and by 1:30 we knew the President was
dead, and we all decided to leave, and it was about 10 minutes to 2 that we
walked out of the office, and I think I passed out back in the warehouse.
Mr. LIEBELER. Just after you left the office?
Mrs. ODIO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. So it would have been sometime before 2 o'clock or right
after?
Mrs. ODIO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did these men indicate that they had an come from
Mrs. ODIO. I am pretty sure that is what he said. Either that they had
been, or that they had just come. I cannot be sure of either one, but they had
been in
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you recognize these men again if you saw their
pictures, do you think?
Mrs. ODIO. I think I could recognize one of them.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think they definitely took like Cubans?
Mrs. ODIO. Well, this is my opinion. They looked very much like Mexicans.
But I might be wrong at that, because I don't remember any Mexican accent. But
the color of Mexicans, when I am referring to greasy, that kind of complexion,
that is what I mean.
Mr. LIEBELER. When did you first become aware of the fact that this man
who had been at your apartment was the man who had been arrested in connection
with the assassination?
Mrs. ODIO. It was immediately.
Mr. LIEBELER. As soon as you saw his picture?
Mrs. ODIO. Immediately; I was so sure.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any doubt about it?
Mrs. ODIO. I don't have any doubts.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any doubt about it then?
Mrs. ODIO. I kept saying it
can't be to myself; it just can't be. I mean it couldn't be, but when my sister
walked into the hospital and she said, "Sylvia, have you seen the
man?" And I said, "Yes." And she said, "That was the man
that was at the door of my house." So I had no doubts then.
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Mr. LIEBELER. Would you recognize this man's voice?
Mrs. ODIO. I don't know. I am not sure.
Mr. LIEBELER. I show you a photograph that has been marked as Bringuier
Exhibit No. 1, and ask you if you can identify anybody in that photograph?
Mrs. ODIO. That is Oswald.
Mr. LIEBELER With the X?
Mrs. ODIO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recognize anybody else in the picture?
Mrs. ODIO. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. I specifically
call your attention to the man standing to Oswald's right, the second man behind
him, who is facing the camera and has in his hand some leaflets.
Mrs. ODIO. Does he have some glasses on?
Mr. LIEBELER. The man that I just described?
Mrs. ODIO. Does he have any glasses?
Mr. LIEBELER. Let me see the picture.
Mrs. ODIO. He has the same build that that man has in the back.
Mr. LIEBELER. He has the same build?
Mrs. ODIO. A lot of hair here [pointing to the right temple].
Mr. LIEBELER. You are pointing to this man here?
Mrs. ODIO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. You say that his hair appeared to be pulled back in some
way?
Mrs. ODIO. One of them, Leopoldo, or the other one. One has very thick
hair.
Mr. LIEBELER. You are describing Leopoldo?
Mrs.
Mr. LIEBELER. Like sort of a bald spot in his front?
Mrs. ODIO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Excuse me just a minute, I will be back. Now, you have
indicated that the individual standing immediately behind Oswald and to his
left, actually in front of the door of this building might look something like
one of the men that was in your apartment?
Mrs. ODIO. That's right. That height and that tall.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, what about the man standing immediately next to him,
so we have in the picture starting from the right, a head, and then a man
standing in the opposite direction from Oswald, and then we have Oswald, and
then we have the individual that you have just referred to about his pushed back
hair, or the bald spot in the front, and then we have another man who has a
group of leaflets in his hand.
Mrs. ODIO. He looks familiar, but I don't think that was one of the men I
saw there at the door. I don't know, Cubans sometimes have the same physique and
everything, the narrowness of the shoulders. I mean the back looks something
like this man I am telling you about.
Mr. LIEBELER. But you are unable to identify positively anybody else in
the picture other than Oswald?
Mrs. ODIO. No; that's correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, I show you a picture that has been marked Pizzo
Exhibit No. 453-B, which appears to show a front view of the man with the bald
spot, and I ask you if you recognize him as one of the men that was with Oswald
in the apartment.
Mrs. ODIO. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Are you sure that it was not, or you are unable to say?
Mrs. ODIO. No; that man was thinner and a little taller than that
picture.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you are referring--
Mrs. ODIO. I am referring to this man now.
Mr. LIEBELER. You are referring to a man with the white shirt whose back
is toward the camera?
Mrs. ODIO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER What about the man immediately behind Oswald?
Mrs. ODIO. No; he was taller than that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Let's refer to this as No. 1. Does it appear to you that
the man who is standing sort of sideways to the camera immediately behind Oswald
383 Page
384 in
Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-B is the same man as this man who is immediately behind
Oswald and facing away from the camera in Bringuier Exhibit No. 1?
Mrs. ODIO. No; it seems like a different back to me. Actually, possibly
the same person, but for some reason, maybe the picture gives trim a slimmer
look.
Mr. LIEBELER. You keep
referring in Pizzo's exhibit to the man whose back is to the camera with a white
shirt?
Mrs. ODIO. Yes; he came with a white shirt.
Mr. LIEBELER. I am having trouble, because I first thought that this man
here, who I will mark with the number 1 in Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-B is the same
as the man who I will mark as No. 1 in Bringuier's Exhibit No. 1, but it appears
that that is not so?
Mrs. ODIO. No; this man is this man in the picture.
Mr. LIEBELER. So we have established that No. 2 in Bringuier's Exhibit
No. 1 is the same as the man marked No. 1 in Pizzo's Exhibit No. 453-B?
Mrs. ODIO. Exactly.
Mr. LIEBELER. And the man who we will mark 2 in Pizzo's Exhibit No. 453-B
is the man marked 1 in Bringuier's Exhibit No. 1?
Mrs. ODIO. That's right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, as far as the man marked No. 1 in Bringuier's Exhibit
No. 1 is concerned, you think when you see him there, that might look like the
man who was in the apartment?
Mrs. ODIO. He has the same build in the back, and same kind of profile,
this side. Here he looks a little broader, and that is not him. It is the same
man, but that wasn't the way Leopoldo looked.
Mr. LIEBELER. So the man marked 2 in Exhibit No. 453-B, Pizzo, does not
look like the man who was in your apartment?
Mrs. ODIO. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. You cannot in any event recognize the man who we shall mark
3 in ,both pictures; is that correct?
Mrs. ODIO. Correct. Let me look at that man here [looking]. He wasn't one
of them, but he looks so familiar to somebody, this one, the one that has his
hand on his face.
Mr. LIEBELER. You indicate that the man who we shall mark 4 in, Pizzo's
Exhibit No. 453-B looks somewhat familiar?
Mrs. ODIO. Somewhat familiar; yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, I Show you Pizzo Exhibit 453-A and ask you if you
recognize anybody in that picture?
Mrs. ODIO. Who is this man?
Mr. LIEBELER. You are
referring to the man who we shall mark 1 on Exhibit No. 453-A. Does he look
familiar to you?
Mrs, ODIO. The color of him looks familiar. That was more or less the
color of that short man. He did not look real white.
Mr. LIEBELER. Does it appear to you that the man we have marked 1 in
Exhibit No. 453-A is an oriental?
Mrs. ODIO. Is an oriental?
Mr. LIEBELER. I don't know. Does it look like it to you?
Mrs. ODIO. I don't know. I am just talking about the color of his face,
the same color. Now he looks more familiar in this picture, you see.
Mr. LIEBELER. When you say this, you point to the man who we will mark 2
in Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-A, and he is the same man who is No. 2 in Pizzo Exhibit
No. 453-B, and No. 1 in Bringuier's Exhibit No. 1? They all seem to be the same
man, don't they?
Mrs. ODIO. I think they are all the same man, but for some reason in this
picture, he is wearing glasses, isn't he?
Mr. LIEBELER. Well, it looks like it; doesn't it?
Mrs. ODIO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did this man wear glasses who was in your apartment?
Mrs. ODIO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. He did?
Mrs. ODIO. Didn't wear them all the time.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, do you recognize Oswald in any of these pictures; in
Exhibit No. 453-A?
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Mrs. ODIO. [Pointing.]
Mr. LIEBELER. You indicate the man with the green X over his head as
being Oswald, and that is the man who was in your apartment?
Mrs. ODIO. He looks a little bit fatter. I don't know if it is the
picture. He looked thinner when he was in the apartment, than he looks in this
picture. He was kind of drawn when he was there. His face was kind of drawn. But
he looks more familiar there. He looks more like he looked that day.
Mr. LIEBELER. In Exhibit No. 453-B, the man with the green line over his
head looks more like the man that was in your apartment; is that correct?
Mrs. ODIO. That's correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any doubt that that man with the green line
over his head in Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-B Was the man who was in your apartment?
Mrs. ODIO. Well, if it is not, it is his twin.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, I show you a photograph that has been marked Garner
Exhibit No. I and ask you if you recognize that man.
Mrs. ODIO. That is Oswald.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is that the man who was in your apartment?
Mrs. ODIO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Are you sure?
Mrs. ODIO. He doesn't have the little thing, the little moustache that he
had that day. He looks shaved there, and he did not look shaved that day.
Mr. LIEBELER. I show you Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-C and ask you if that
looks like the man who was in your apartment?
Mrs. ODIO. That is not the expression he had, but he has the same
forehead and everything. But his lips, the only thing that confuses me is the
lips that did not look like the same man. It is that unshaved thing that got me
that day.
Mr. LIEBELER. Does Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-C appear to you, does the man in
that picture appear to be Somewhat unshaven, or similar to the one you saw in
your apartment?
Mrs. ODIO. I think he was not. The only thing he had not shaved was
around where the mouth is, and everything else was shaved. That is way he
looked, kind of clothes hanging on him.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think this man in Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-C is Lee
Harvey Oswald?
Mrs. ODIO. Yes; I think that is him.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think that is the man that was in your apartment?
Mrs. ODIO. Well, let me say something. I think this man was the one that
was in my apartment. I am not too sure of that picture. He didn't look like
this. He was smiling that day. He was more smiling than in this picture.
Mr. LIEBELER. We have to put the pictures down on the record, because
when somebody reads the record-- you say that he--
Mrs. ODIO. He looks more relaxed in Exhibit No. 453-C. He looks more
smiling, like Exhibit No. 453-B, or different countenance.
Mr. LIEBELER. I have some motion pictures of the scene that we have been
looking at here in these still pictures. These pictures that have been marked
Exhibit Nos. 453-B and 453-C were taken from a movie that was made of that, and
we also have on that movie a picture of Lee Oswald as he appeared on the
television program in New Orleans on a sound track. I want you to look at those
pictures and tell us after you have looked at the pictures if you think that man
was the same man who was in your apartment.
I have not yet made arrangements for the projector to be set up, and
there is an FBI agent bringing another picture over here from the FBI office
that I want you to look at this morning before you leave. But I would like to
have you--and I have another witness waiting for me, and I have nine more
witnesses. Could you come back later this evening to look at the motion
pictures? And in the meantime, I will have the Secret Service set up a
projection room to view the films?
Mrs. ODIO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Why don't we terminate momentarily now, and as soon as the
FBI comes over, I will show you this picture, and I will call the Secret Service
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386 and
find out when he can set up the viewing of this film, and I will tell You what
time to come back.
Mrs. ODIO. Since I am going to be downtown, do you want me to come back
any special time?
Mr. LIEBELER. I will tell you as soon as I talk to Mr. Sorrels.
Mrs. ODIO. Before I leave?
Mr. LIEBELER. I can't tell you before you leave. I will see if I can set
up a time. When you say that these men came to your apartment in late September
of 1963, can you give me your best recollection as to how long before the first
of October they came? You moved out of your apartment in the Crestwood
Apartments on the very last day of September; is that correct? Or can you.
remember? Is there any way you can check that by finding out when you moved into
your apartment in Oak Cliff?
Mrs. ODIO. The day I moved, I had gone to work, so it must have been on a
Monday or Tuesday. This man must have come by the end of the previous weekend.
Mr. LIEBELER. I show you a 1963 calendar and point out to you that the
last day of September was Monday.
Mrs. ODIO. That is probably the day I moved.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you say that you also started working at a new job that
same day?
Mrs. ODIO. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. But you had been working on the day that you did move?
Mrs. ODIO. I started working initially the 15th of September, because it
was too far away where I lived in Irving. I started the 15th of September, I am
almost sure of the 15th or the 9th. Let
me see what day was the 9th. It was a Monday. It was the 9th, sir, that I
started working at National Chemsearch.
(Special Agent Bardwell O. Odum of the Federal Bureau of Investigation
entered the hearing room.)
Mr. LIEBELER. This is Mr. Odum from the FBI. As a matter of fact, Mr.
Odum was the man that interviewed you.
Mrs. ODIO. I remember. He looked very familiar.
Mr. ODUM. What is the name?
Mrs. ODIO. Odio.
Mr. ODUM. I interview so many people, it slips my mind at the moment.
(Agent Odum left the hearing
room.)
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you have indicated on the calendar, you circled the
30th of September, and you drew a line around the 26th, 27th, and 28th of
September. Can you tell me what you meant by that?
Mrs. ODIO. The 30th was the day I moved. The 26th, 27th, and 28th, it
could have been either of those 3 days. It was not on a Sunday.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now you indicated previously that Leopoldo called you the
immediately following day after they had been there; is that correct?
Mrs. ODIO. That's correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you also testified, according to my recollection, that
you had been at work on the day that Leopoldo called you; is that correct?
Mrs. ODIO. Yes; it would be the 26th or the 27th for sure.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you work on Saturday?
Mrs. ODIO. No; but he could have called me Saturday.
But they would have come Thursday or Friday.
Mr. LIEBELER. Thursday or Friday?
Mrs. ODIO. That's right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Because you had been at work on the day they came?
Mrs. ODIO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether you had been at work on the day
that Leopoldo called you?
Mrs. ODIO. I don't recall that.
Mr. LIEBELER. You can't recall that?
Mrs. ODIO. No. I know I was very busy with the kids, but I don't
remember.
Mr. LIEBELER. I show you a picture which depicts the same individual that
is depicted in an exhibit which has previously been marked Commission Exhibit
No. 237, and I ask you if you recognize that man.
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Mrs. ODIO. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. That is not the man that was with Leon when he came to your
apartment?
Mrs. ODIO. No. I wish I could point him to you. One was very tall and
slim, kind of. He had glasses, because he took them off and put them back on
before he left, and they were not sunglasses. And the other one was short, very
Mexican looking. Have you ever seen a short Mexican with lots of thick hair and
a lot of hair on his chest?
Mr. LIEBELER. So there was was a shorter one and a tall one, and the
shorter one was rather husky?
Mrs. ODIO. He was not as big as this man.
Mr. LIEBELER. Not as big as the man in Exhibit No. 237?
Mrs. ODIO. That's right.
Mr. LIEBELER. IS that the man in Exhibit No. 237 that had a pushed back
spot on his head?
Mrs. ODIO. It was different. In the middle of his head it was thick, and
it looked like he didn't have any hair, and the other side, I didn't notice
that.
Mr. LIEBELER. This was the taller man; is that right? The one known as
Leopoldo?
Mrs. ODIO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. About how much did the taller man weigh, could you guess?
Mrs. ODIO. He was thin--about 165 pounds.
Mr. LIEBELER. How tall was he, about?
Mrs. ODIO. He was about 3 1/2 inches, almost 4 inches taller than I was.
Excuse me, he couldn't have. Maybe it was just in the position he was standing.
I know that made him look taller, and I had no heels on at the time, so he must
have been 6 feet; yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And the shorter man was about how tall, would you say? Was
he taller or shorter than Oswald?
Mrs. ODIO. Shorter than Oswald.
Mr. LIEBELER. About how much, could you guess?
Mrs. ODIO. Five feet seven, something like that.
Mr. LIEBELER. So he could have been 2 or 3 inches shorter than Oswald?
Mrs. ODIO. That's right.
Mr. LIEBELER. He weighed about how much, would you say?
Mrs. ODIO. 170 pounds, something like that, because he was short, but he
was stocky, and he was the one that had the strange complexion.
Mrs. LIEBELER. Was it pock marked, would you say?
Mrs. ODIO. No; it was like it wasn't, because he was, oh, it was like he
had been in the sun for a long time.
Mr. LIEBELER. Let's terminate now and we will resume when we show the
film to you tonight. ----------- TESTIMONY
OF SYLVIA ODIO RESUMED
The testimony of Sylvia Odio was taken at 6:30 p.m., on July 22, 1964, at
the office of the Secret Service, 505 North Ervay Street, Dallas, Tex., by Mr.
Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Forrest
Sorrels and John Joe Howlett, special agents of the U.S. Secret Service were
present.
Mr. LIEBELER. This is the continued deposition of Mrs. Sylvia Odio, which
is now being continued in the office of the Secret Service. We have made
arrangements in the presence of Agent Forrest Sorrels and Agent Howlett, to show
some movie films of some street scenes in the city of New Orleans, and also a
television appearance that Lee Harvey Oswald made over station WDSU in New
Orleans in August of 1963. I want to ask Mrs. Odio to watch the film, and if you
recognize anybody in the film at any time say so as you see him and point the
individual out and we will run the film backward and see what it looks like at
that time. Please go ahead, John.
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Mrs. ODIO [viewing film]. The man from the back with the glasses, I have
seen him, the tall thin one. I
would like to see the beginning where the man started coming in.
(Film was rerun.)
Mrs. ODIO. You see the one with the glasses, that thin man. He doesn't
have a mustache, though.
Mr. LIEBELER. That third man there?
Mrs. ODIO. I will show you the back when he comes. The man over to the
right in the white shirt from the back, that looks so familiar.
Mr. LIEBELER. That one right over there?
Mrs. ODIO. Right; he has the same build.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you back it up, John? Let me ask you this now, Sylvia.
Did you recognize Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mrs. ODIO. Oh, yes; definitely. He made a television appearance. He
looked much more similar than the pictures from New Orleans. He had the same
mustache here.
Mr. LIEBELER. In the television appearance?
Mrs. ODIO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. What about in the pictures that you saw in the police
station of him standing against the wall when he walked out of the police
station, did that look like the man that was in your apartment?
Mrs. ODIO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. What about his voice? Did you recognize any similarity in
his voice?
Mrs. ODIO. No. I don't know if it was because in the television it
changed, or something, and he didn't speak too much that day, and it is hard to
remember a voice after such a long time.
Mr. LIEBELER. After looking at this picture, are you more convinced, or
less convinced, or do you still have about the same feeling that you had before
you looked at it that the man who was in your apartment late in September was
the same man as Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mrs. ODIO. I have to be careful about that, because I have the same
feeling that it was, but at the same time I have been looking at papers for
months and months of pictures, and these help you to remember too much. I wish I
could isolate the incident without remembering the other pictures. I have a
feeling there are certain pictures that do not resemble him. It was not the
Oswald that was standing in front of my door. He was kind of tired looking. He
had a little smile, but he was sunken in in the face that day. More skinny, I
would say.
Mr. LIEBELER. Well, do you have any doubts in your mind after looking at
these pictures that the man that was in your apartment was the same man as Lee
Harvey Oswald?
Mrs. ODIO. I don't have any doubts.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you want to run the picture once more, John?
Mrs. ODIO. What I am trying to establish is the man with the bald in the
back was similar to the profile, but he seems lighter in this picture. But the
men looked like Mexicans. They did not look like Cubans.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now we have here two pictures that have been made from
films of this movie.
Mrs. ODIO. In that picture he didn't resemble that at all [pointing].
Mr. LIEBELER. You are referring to Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-B; the man
marked with the number 2?
Mrs. ODIO. That's right.
Mr. LIEBELER. That is the same man you have been talking about as looking
similar?
Mrs. ODIO. That's right. But in the motion picture he looks thinner and I
was trying to give you an idea of the man that I saw that day.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think that the man you saw in the motion picture,
who is the same man marked number 2 in Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-B, could have been
the same man that was in your apartment with Oswald?
Mrs. ODIO. I think he had a mustache, and this man in the apartment does
not have any mustache.
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Mr. LIEBELER. But otherwise, you think that he looks similar?
Mrs. ODIO. They have the same stature and same build and profile. I can
say he was standing to the side in the door, and his hair was pulled back on one
side.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you want to
run through it again, please?
(Film was rerun.)
Mrs. ODIO. The picture that resembled most, even though his hair was not
so cut that day.
Mr. LIEBELER. You have referred to the individual that was walking out of
the police station?
Mrs. ODIO. With his back.
Mr. LIEBELER. He had a mustache, and he had glasses on?
Mrs. ODIO. That day he did not have a mustache. He just had glasses, and
he would take them off and on. Lee Oswald--
Mr. LIEBELER. You think this man standing on the corner, who is No. 2 in
Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-B, is the same man you saw walking out of the police
station?
Mrs. ODIO. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. It is a different man?
Mrs. ODIO. That's right. The one that is walking out of the door, kind of
thin-looking individual, is darker.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is the man that was walking out of the police station?
Mrs. ODIO. You want me to point it out?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. Run it back. I think we should indicate in the record
there was a confusion in my mind, because I think it is pretty clear that the
man that was walking out of the police station is a different man than is in
Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-B.
Mrs. ODIO. He looked greasy looking. I will tell you when [looking at
film].
Mr. LIEBELER. Is it that man with the sunglasses that walked out of the
door?
Mrs. ODIO. That is the picture I see. That picture is what I mean.
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. There he is again [indicating individual with mustache
leaving police station with Carios Bringuier and others depicted on film].
Mrs. ODIO. There he is again; big ears, but from the front, he doesn't
resemble it. It is the same build from the back, that thin neck.
Mr. LIEBELER. You think that
that man we have Just seen in the picture resembles one of the men that was in
your apartment?
Mrs. ODIO. From the back, because I remember that I put the light on on
the porch, and I saw them get in the car. I wanted to be sure they were gone.
Mr. LIEBELER. But it is clearly not the same individual?
Mrs. ODIO. No, sir; clearly not the same. I am trying to see something,
to put something in paper that would make me remember. [The film was rerun but
the witness did not recognize anyone depicted on it except as indicated above.]
Mr. LIEBELER. Thank you very much, Mrs. Odio. |