The testimony of Raymond Franklin Krystinik was taken at 9 a.m., on March 24, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Messrs. Albert E. Jenner, Jr. and Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. LIEBELER. Will you rise and raise your right hand? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. I do.
Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Krystinik, I am a member of the legal staff of the President's Commission which has been established pursuant to Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963. Last week Mr. Rankin sent you a letter and told you that I would be in touch with you, did he not?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Enclosed with that letter were copies of the Executive Order 11130, and a copy of the Joint Resolution of Congress 137, and the rules of the Commission's procedure in taking the testimony.
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. You received those documents?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. The general nature of our inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. We wish to inquire of you as to your knowledge of Oswald as a result of your having met him, as we understand it, through Michael Paine prior to the assassination. We also want to question you about some of the events that occurred shortly after the assassination, and some conversation you had with Mr. Paine at that time. Would you state your name for the record?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Raymond Franklin Krystinik.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you live?
Mr. KRYSTINIK 2121 Greenway Street, Arlington, Tex.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you work?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Bell Helicopter Research Laboratory, located at 33006 Avenue E, East, Arlington, Tex. It is a part of Bell Helicopter Co. Their address is Box 482, Fort Worth, Tex.
Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you worked for Bell?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Since June 6, 1960.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us briefly what your educational background is, Mr. Krystinik?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. I started grade school in Caldwell, Tex. I moved to Bryan and finished grade school in the Smetana School at Bryan, Tex. And from there to Fredericksburg. At Fredericksburg I went to St. Mary's Catholic

461

School and grade school, and from Fredericksburg to Grand Prairie, Tex. I went to high school in Grand Prairie, Tex. Graduated in 1950. I went to work for Chance Vought Aircraft Aviation from high school. Went into the Navy in 1952, I believe. I don't remember exactly. I have to look it up. I was married in 1954. Got out of the Navy in August of 1954. Started to school at Arlington State College in September of 1954, and I graduated from Arlington State in June of 1956. Went to Texas A&M, I think starting in January of 1957. I graduated from Texas A&M in June of 1960. On June 6, I went to work for Bell Helicopter. These are just approximate dates. I think they are just about right, but I am not right sure. If you need it, I can give you the exact dates.
Mr. LIEBELER. This is all right. What kind of work do you do for Bell Helicopter?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. I am a research engineer. I work in the research group.
Mr. LIEBELER. Your work relates to helicopters and their design?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Actually right now; no. Right now, I am working on what I think the company could classify as a flying machine. Is that adequate?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. When were you born?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. August 31, 1932.
Mr. LIEBELER. Are you presently married?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any children?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes; I have three.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Michael Paine?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes; I do.
Mr. LIEBELER. When did you meet him, approximately? And under what circumstances?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Approximately in June of 1961, if I remember correctly. I was assigned to the research group on a temporary assignment, and at the research laboratory I met Michael and worked with him then off and on up through now.
Mr. LIEBELER. You are working with him now?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did there come a time when you met Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes; I did.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us about that?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. I went to a meeting of the American Civil Liberties Union on the campus of SMU. I don't remember the date, except I do remember it was the night after Mr. Stevenson's unhappy visit to Dallas when the lady, I believe, swatted him with a placard.
Mr. LIEBELER. That was sometime in October of 1963?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes; it was October of 1963. Oswald was at the meeting, and Michael introduced me to him. He had told me about the man before.
Mr. LIEBELER. What had Michael Paine told you about Oswald?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. I mean told me that at the time there was a Russian lady living with his wife Ruth and that just exactly, I can't remember his exact words, but there was this fellow who was an ex-Marine who had defected to Russia. I can remember that he told me that, that he defected to Russia, and the fellow decided it wasn't for him and he came back to the United States. And was, in general, a misfit and not capable of holding a good job; generally dissatisfied, and didn't accept the responsibilities for his family, and Michael's wife had taken Marina to help her for the time being. That was the reference made to him prior to having met him.
Mr. LIEBELER. To the best of your recollection, is that all Michael Paine told you about Oswald?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. At that particular time we discussed him---during that period of time Michael was eating supper with us on an average of once a week, and we discussed the man as being odd, or at least a little different. Michael said he couldn't understand the man exactly. He commented that he shirked or ran from responsibilities. As long as he had money and had a job, he was willing to stay around his family and support them, but when he lost a job and didn't have the money, he apparently took off. I can remember him telling

462

me that about him, and when I met him at Selecman Hall, I didn't feel overly happy to meet the man, or that I had made an acquaintance of value. They were there before my wife and I came. As we walked in and sat down, Oswald was there, and it didn't occur to me then that he might be the man. Prior to the meeting starting, he introduced me to him. Michael, I am referring to---Michael introduced me. I need to keep my chain more correct, straight. Michael introduced me to Lee Oswald. As the meeting started, about that time before the meeting first there was a little bit of talk. I don't remember what the chairman of the meeting said prior to the film starting. They showed a film about a Senator or Congressman or legislator, some form of public servant who was running for reelection in Washington State, and the far right people wanted him out in a campaign, stating that his wife had connections with the Communist Party, and apparently she had had connections during her college days but had severed relations with the party and had given evidence to the FBI and an investigating team and apparently was clean at the time, or had no connection with the party at the time. And they showed in a film how the far right or an extremist movement could greatly damage a citizen that was of value to the United States. That was the essence of the film. After the film there was discussion about the Civil Liberties and about the film in general and about the movement in the South and the integration movement and the talk concerning General Walker. The first notice I made of Oswald is when he stood up and made a remark about General Walker in reference to him not only being anti-Catholic but anti-Semitic in regard to his comments about the Pope. Then he made further comments that a night or two nights before he had been at the General Walker meeting here in Dallas. That was my first real notice of him.
Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald said to the assembled group at that time that he had been to a meeting 2 days prior at which General Walker was present?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. I think it was 2 days prior.
Mr. LIEBELER. That meeting would have been just the night before Mr. Stevenson came to Dallas?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes, sir; I think, or it could have been the same night. I don't remember the exact date.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did Oswald say about General Walker?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. That was it. That was his comment about Walker, and it struck me at the time. I mean my ears perked up when he said Walker was anti-Catholic in reference to his comments about the Pope. I can quote that. That is exact. I am Catholic and I wanted to hear what he said. He didn't say what General Walker had said.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate any hostility toward General Walker either by words or by his deeds?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. At the time it seemed like Michael had commented to me prior that the man was a Marxist, and I have never met anyone before that I had known to be a Communist or a Marxist or Leninist or Red, and I was interested mainly to see what the man looked like, how he thought and what he felt. It seemed to me, in watching and listening to him, that rather than being violently against General Walker, he was stirring in dirty thoughts that you shouldn't like General Walker. He didn't say General Walker is a bad guy. He just made comments that General Walker is anti-Semitic and anti-Catholic, and he was spreading a little seed of thought. That was the way it impressed me.
Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't get the feeling that Oswald had any particular violent thoughts towards General Walker?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. I didn't at this time. I had no idea he was violent until I heard on the radio he had shot the President.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did anybody respond to Oswald's remarks about General Walker?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. There were other people that discussed it, and then they discussed the bad display the people from the far right had put on when Mr. Stevenson was in Dallas, and it was regrettable that extremists would act like

463

that. But any exact comment about General Walker I really don't remember.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald say anything about this Stevenson affair?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. I couldn't say. I don't really remember.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that he had been at the meeting at which Stevenson had had his difficulty?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. No, sir; he didn't tell me that. He told me, I think just me he had mentioned, if I remember exactly, he had mentioned to Michael and said, "I was there," in reference to the meeting of the General Walker group.
Mr. LIEBELER. Are the remarks that you have told us about, the only remarks that Oswald made to the entire group that evening?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. The only ones I can remember and swear that I know was the one in reference to General Walker not only being anti-Semitic but anti-Catholic and in regard to his comment about the Pope.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald comment on the John Birch Society as well as General Walker?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. I know there was mention about him in the group. The group commented on the John Birch Society, and I don't remember exactly whether Oswald commented on them, too. I would like to be of help to you, but I don't remember.
Mr. LIEBELER. Just give us the best recollection you have.
Mr. KRYSTINIK. That is it so far.
Mr. LIEBELER. How did Oswald impress you when he stepped up and addressed the group? Did he impress you as being articulate, intelligent, or was he not that way?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. At that particular time he just made the one statement. After the meeting, I talked to him for about 15 minutes primarily about economics.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was anyone there besides you and Oswald?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes, sir; there was a Mr. Byrd Helligas.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he take part in the conversation with you and Oswald?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes; a little bit, to the best of my memory. Oswald was the fellow that impressed me, and I was paying attention to what he was saying, and I am afraid that Mr. Helligas didn't make an impression on me. I don't remember what he said, except he did enter into the conversation at different times. I am afraid most of my attention was directed to Oswald. The hair was up on the back of my neck. I was irritated by the man a little. Not real bad, but he bothered me some.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was it what he said that bothered you, or was it his attitude?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Attitude more than exactly what he said.
Mr. LIEBELER. What was his attitude?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Well, the attitude that I felt was that he was talking down to me. I felt like he was. That he was better than I was, to a certain degree and he acted as if he had complete command of the argument and was on top all the time. I felt that a couple of different spots in the argument I had him practically beaten and he wouldn't accept my argument. He turned his back and would go down a different avenue.
Mr. LIEBELER. He figuratively turned his back?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes, sir; that is it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Reconstruct for us, as best you can, at this point, the discussion that you and Oswald had. Tell us as best you can recall what he said and what you said and what the argument was about.
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Well, after the meeting was over we went back to the back where they had coffee. I believe they had doughnuts, I am not sure, but they had a table of refreshments, at least, and I am sure there was coffee. I wasn't interested in the coffee. Michael, my wife, and Oswald, and I, walked to the back of the room together. I approached Oswald and commented to him that Michael had told me about his political background a little bit, and I understood that he had been to Russia. I asked him what he felt communism had to offer that was better than he could find in the United States. He kind of shrugged his shoulders and didn't make any particular comment then. I forget exactly the trend of talk at that particular moment, but as we talked

464

for just a couple of minutes, or at any rate as we talked, I told him I had met his wife at the Paine's over in Irving and that he had a beautiful little girl, he should be real proud of them. And he commented, "They are nice." And that was to let it go at that. I forget, or I do forget now about exactly what the next few comments were. We did start talking about communism versus capitalism. He said that in capitalism the employer exploits the worker. I asked him just what he meant by exploiting. He said he takes a man's labors and makes a profit from them without actually putting in any effort of his own. I said that wasn't true. I considered myself to be a capitalist, or at least to be a firm believer in the capitalistic system. At the present time I had an employer and he paid me a fair salary and I was real glad to work for him for the salary I got. He commented that my employer was taking my efforts without putting in any efforts and was reaping a profit from my efforts, and he wanted to know if I thought that was fair or not? And I said that I was happy. I am satisfied with what I have, and I feel it is fair, and I used an analogy that in turn I am an employer. I have two fellows who work for me building patterns for which I pay them $3 an hour and they are tickled to get the $3 an hour. They are real glad to get it. And that I make $4 an hour off of their efforts. My profit is $1 an hour, and that I bought the machinery, I bought the material. I have gone out and hunted up the work, and the $1 an hour from each of those two fellows is my wage for going out and getting the work, and my wage is comparable to my investment. He said, you are exploiting labor. You are not doing any work. And he commented then, well, that is all right for you. In your society it is not a crime to exploit the worker. He didn't say, "to exploit the worker." He said, "In your society it is not a crime." He was referring to exploitation of the worker, supposedly.
Mr. LIEBELER. Go ahead.
Mr. KRYSTINIK. That is really about all I remember from the conversation itself. Oh, wait a minute, we did talk about freedom. I asked him what about the freedom in Russia. And he said, "Well, they don't have as much actual freedom." I have forgotten what he said exactly in reference to where they didn't have the freedom. We were talking about actual civil liberties themselves in the United States versus Russia. He said the United States by far has more civil liberties. I said, what do you think about the movement in the South in reference to Mr. Kennedy? And he said he thinks that Kennedy is doing a real fine job, a real good job, I have forgotten.
Mr. LIEBELER. So far as civil rights were concerned?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes, sir. That was the only comment that was made in reference to President Kennedy. I forget whether that was the only time he expressed any emotion, and I have forgotten the exact words, he is doing a real fine job, or very fine job. I can't remember exactly what he said. He impressed me as having a lot of big words, and my immediate impression was he was fairly well read, but talking with Michael later and recalling the conversation later, it was pointed out, Michael brought it to my attention, and after I think about it I agree with Michael, that he had available to him a lot of two-bit vocabulary words, but not necessarily correctly used. This was a later impression, but the immediate argument, I was interested in what he was saying rather than how he was saying it and the way he had gone about saying it.
Mr. LIEBELER. You were particularly impressed, however, by the emphasis that Oswald placed on his remark that President Kennedy was doing a good job as far as civil rights were concerned?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. At the immediate time I wasn't particularly impressed. After the President was murdered, I felt that there was at least an emphasis of note, if not connected. I do remember him saying, him placing emphasis on the way he said it.
Mr. LIEBELER. And the impression you received of his attitude toward President Kennedy was one of approval and one of favor?

465

Mr. KRYSTINIK. I would say yes. I don't know about President Kennedy in general, how he felt, but in reference to the civil rights issue, the impression I had was that he was favorably impressed by Mr. Kennedy.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald express his attitude toward any other government official, during the course of his conversation with you?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. I can't really remember. I have heard Michael Paine comment that Oswald had at one time written a letter and left it laying around the house, and that his wife, Ruth, had found this letter. It was in the typewriter. I can't remember exactly the details, but that he had referred to the notorious FBI. Apparently he didn't care for the FBI.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Michael tell you that before or after the assassination?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. It was after.
Mr. LIEBELER. It was after?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Prior to the time of the assassination, however, you had no feeling that Oswald had any particular hostility toward any government official or toward the government in general? Would that be a fair statement?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. I can't really say because I don't know the exact time sequence. After a little time is passed, it is hard to pin it down. Michael and I discussed the man at length after the assassination, and we talked about him a whole lot, so I don't really know whether it was before or after, but I now feel that he was very definitely against all enforcement people in general, and I don't know exactly when this impression came to me. But if I didn't already have this impression beforehand, I certainly had it afterwards. I do know that beforehand, that he didn't get along with his employers and his fellow workers, or at least his employers, and he wasn't able to keep a job, and he didn't have respect for his employers, and this might possibly extend to law enforcement officials.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you feel that Oswald was, in general resentful of authority? There was resentment of his employers?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. According to Michael, talking to him, we didn't talk about specifics, it was strictly generalities. It was 15 minutes that I talked to him, or 15 minutes or so that I talked to him.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is this meeting that you had with Oswald in the ACLU, the only meeting you ever had with Oswald?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. That was the only time I saw him up until I saw him on television.
Mr. LIEBELER. And your impressions are based upon your conversation with him during that time at the ACLU meeting?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Based on that and what Michael and I have discussed in reference to him.
Mr. LIEBELER. In the course of the conversation with Oswald at the ACLU meeting, did he tell you that he was a Marxist?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes. It seems to me that I commented to him that, "You are a Communist and I am a Capitalist," and I can't remember exactly what it was, but he corrected me and he said, "I am a Marxist." When I addressed him as a Communist, he said, "I am a Marxist."
Mr. LIEBELER. He corrected you then when you said he was a Communist and indicated he was not a Communist?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ask him what the difference was between those theories?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. No; I don't remember having asked him that.
Mr. LIEBELER. And he didn't elaborate on that?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald tell you----
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Oh, excuse me, there was one other thing that I, at the time when he commented on the capitalistic system exploiting the worker, I came back at him with the idea, you mean to tell me in Russia they don't exploit, that the State doesn't exploit the worker, and he stated that it is worse than here. He did say that.
Mr. LIEBELER. That the exploitation of the worker was worse in Russia than it is in the United States?

466

Mr. KRYSTINIK. And the State exploited the worker.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate to you any desire to return to the Soviet Union?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate any desire to go to any other country?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. To me; no.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know at the time you talked to Oswald that he had been active in the Fair Play for Cuba?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. No, sir; I never heard of the organization until I read about it in the Dallas Morning News in reference to Oswald.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald tell you he was a member of any Marxist or Communist group?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. No. His only comment was that, "I am a Marxist."
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any impression as to whether he was a member of any group, Marxist or Communist group?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. In reference to what Michael had told me that .he defected to Russia and that he claimed himself as being a Marxist, now I am afraid that in my mind I felt he was a Communist or a Red, and my immediate impressions were that even though he had nothing to offer me with which to place trust in him, I didn't trust him and kind of considered him, I guess I looked at him really like someone at a dog that might bite. I disliked the man. I disliked him without him giving me personally an actual reason. I disliked him before I met him on the basis of conversation with Michael. I disliked him when I met him in that I felt he was talking down to me and felt he was somewhat better than I was. He acted as he felt he had complete command of the conversation, was leading it, and was controlling what was going to be said, and I like to talk too. We talked back and forth, but rather than a pleasant discussion, it was more of an argument.
Mr. LIEBELER. You got no impression at any time during the course of your meeting with Oswald that he was an actual member of any Communist or Marxist group?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. I felt that he was, but that was only by saying, "I am a Marxist." To me, that categorized him. But as to any specific organization, I had no impression that he belonged to any specific group.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald display any anger to you during the course of your conversation with him?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. I can't remember, really. I don't think so.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you now told us, to the best of your recollection, the entire conversation that occurred between you and Oswald on that occasion?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Only to the best of my recollection. I am sure that we talked more.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he mention anything to you about having been in the Marines?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. He didn't. Michael had told me previously that he had been in the Marines.
Mr. LIEBELER. Had Michael told you that Oswald received an undesirable discharge from the Marine Corps?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. But you didn't have any discussion about that with Oswald?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. No.
Mr. LIEBELER Did you have any discussion with Oswald about his impressions while he was in the Soviet Union?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. I did ask him to tell me about Russia, but then the conversation diverged back into the economic end of the capitalism versus communism. He commented that the work hours were long and the pay wasn't particularly good. That was about the main thing. It was just that long in reference to the Soviet Union and we were back to capitalism.. He didn't seem to care to talk particularly about it.
Mr. LIEBELER. His remarks about the pay and working conditions in the Soviet Union were general remark?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Just general.

467

Mr. LIEBELER. He didn't tell you how much he was paid or what kind of Job he had?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Well, he didn't. Michael, I believe, told me afterwards, if I remember correctly, that he was doing something in an electronic firm or electrical industry.
Mr. LIEBELER. But Oswald himself told you nothing about his stay in the Soviet Union other than you have already told us?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Basically.
Mr. LIEBELER. What happened after the meeting was over?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. As we were going out, I commented to Michael that we were going to have to set this boy up in business and convert him. And he said that the only thing he approached humor, he commented, "The money might corrupt me." I can remember that as a quote.
Mr. LIEBELER. That is what Oswald said?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. That is what Oswald said.
Mr. LIEBELER. He said that in a joking manner?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. In a joking manner.
Mr. LIEBELER. Other than that, however, Oswald did not indicate any particular sense of humor to you?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. No humor. He indicated no violence. He impressed me as being cold. You can talk to some people and say they are warm and sincere. He impressed me as being cold and stereotyped. He had fixed notions in his head, and I had the impression he had his mind made up regardless of how good an argument you presented. His mind was made up that he was not going to admit, regardless of how strong it was.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you subsequently discuss with Michael Paine your argument with Oswald?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes; I did.
Mr. LIEBELER. Prior to the assassination?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Prior to the assassination.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us generally what you said and what Michael said?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Michael said that he knew of what was coming, so he went on off and talked with my wife and with another fellow. There was no point in him sticking around. He knew Oswald had a closed mind. He didn't say, "closed mind." Michael is a rather unusual type of person. He is careful not to overly, severely criticize anyone or make unkind comments about other people, even though he himself has sensitive emotions and feels--you have talked with him. I guess you have the same impression.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is that all that you and Michael said about your (conversation) discussion with Oswald?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. With reference to this conversation, I related to him just about what Oswald had said to me. It wasn't exactly in detail. I didn't talk about him, as long about the actual conversation, as I have talked to you. He said that he knew how it was going to go and there wasn't any point in his staying around. He knew how Oswald would react.
Mr. LIEBELER. He indicated to you that he had had previous similar experiences?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you about this in specific detail?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Only that he argued with him and the man loved to talk economics, and that at first he was very, very interesting to talk to, but that once the man had said all that he wanted to, or all that he was particularly interested in, it was then a repeat, and that it was always all locked in in a small little body, that he didn't particularly have any area for growth, that he had a certain fixed image in his mind, and was reluctant to have it improved or changed.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Michael indicate to you that Oswald received any periodicals or literature concerning economic or social and political questions of the time that you discussed?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Prior to the assassination, no, he didn't. I am trying to--I forget now exactly--I have read the newspapers and I heard so darn much

468

about it on the radio and television, it is actually hard to strain out exactly who said what. I know that he had gotten Communist literature, and I can't remember whether it was from Michael or from the news media that I heard this.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you recall any other discussions between Michael Paine and yourself, concerning Lee Oswald that occurred prior to the assassination?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. No, sir; not really.
Mr. LIEBELER. The occasion that you met Oswald at the ACLU meeting was the only time at which you ever met Oswald, is that correct?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned that you had met Marina Oswald and child prior to that time.
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes; Michael had bought an old blue--he had a French Citroen automobile. At any rate, he had the two cars and he wanted me to drive either his car home or follow him home in my car. And he was taking the Oldsmobile to Irving and I followed him in my car and took him back to the research laboratory and picked up his Citroen. At any rate, when I drove the car in, he went into the house and brought Ruth out and Marina. And all I remember is one little girl. I didn't see the baby. The little girl came out with her mother and Ruth introduced me to Marina. She impressed me at the time as very sweet and very polite. I spoke as slowly and as distinctly as I could to her in English, Texan to be exact, and she turned to Marina--Marina turned to Ruth and spoke to her in Russian, and I asked Ruth if I was talking too fast, and Marina said I am talking too Texan. At any rate, that was about it. I told her that she had a beautiful little girl and hoped that she would like the United States. And she commented that she did, that it was a wonderful country. That I can remember for sure. That impressed me, because it seems that where there is a possibility of a Russian saying something nice, it is nice to have a compliment. At least I felt complimented.
Mr. LIEBELER. Marina indicated that to you in English, is that correct?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. I can't remember whether it was the words, but that was the way I took it to be. It was my thinking, yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina understand the remarks that you had made to her in English?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Apparently she followed the trend, but she turned to Ruth for exact interpretation, and Ruth told me that I wasn't talking too fast, just too Texan. That was Marina's comment. At first I was talking just to Marina back and forth, and she said just a few words, and I asked her how old the child was, and if I remember exactly, 2 or 3. I have forgotten. But one- or two-word answers, and, I had no trouble at all understanding her up to that point. When Ruth entered into the conversation, she turned and relied directly and totally upon Ruth. I talked to her only about 5 minutes in all. I talked with her while Ruth was looking at the car with Michael. I mean I talked to her rather than with her.
Mr. LIEBELER. This was after Marina had given birth to the second child, is that correct?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes; seemed like only a week or 2 weeks.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was there any discussion of Lee Oswald at that time?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. No, sir; his name wasn't mentioned. I hadn't met him at that time.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever met Lyman Paine? That would be Michael's father. Did you ever discuss Lyman Paine with Michael?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Only once. We talked about him a couple of times, but one time Michael, just prior to Michael buying the land in Irving for his future shop.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us approximately when that was?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. No, sir; I can't remember, but it was about a week prior to his buying the land.
Mr. LIEBELER. I see.
Mr. KRYSTINIK. I can fix the time. He had commented that he had been invited by his father to the west coast for the weekend.

469

I know that the previous time Michael had been saving his money to buy this land, and I feel that he didn't have enough money at the time, and he flew out on a Friday evening, if I remember correctly, and flew back to Dallas early Monday morning, and he was sleepy and tired at work that day. We talked and I asked him if he had a nice time visiting with his father, and he commented that he had a nice time and that his father had a very nice party. And it seemed this was somewhat of an international party. He talked about this Negress that he had met who was extremely interesting. Her husband had written a book on labor, and he talked mainly about this woman and the conversation he had with her.
Mr. LIEBELER. This conversation occurred at a party that Lyman Paine had given in Los Angeles is that correct?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes; that's right. He didn't tell me in detail why he was particularly interested. He said she was a very interesting person, and that he had talked to a group of other people, several other people. He said that there was a man from West or East Germany, and I remember he said that there were some Chinese people there, and I don't remember whether they were or were not from the Communist bloc. I don't remember that. But he commented on several other people that were, in my book, I would say they were each one an extremist of some form or other at the time--at the time that he was telling me about them. They were at least very different than you would meet on the street. That doesn't make them bad, don't misunderstand me. That was the impression I had. He didn't say they were Communist or bad people or anything like that. They were just very, very different.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Michael indicate to you that his father had been active in the affairs of the Communist Party?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. No; he didn't. I asked him what his father did, and he said he was an architect, and that was the comment. It seemed there was some mention made about a Communist or a fellow that had communistic interests being at the party, and I asked him what kind of people does your father associate with. He said he didn't know really what his father does. That was his comment. He didn't know what his father does, that he really knows that he is an architect and that is about it. That was Michael's comment.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ask him what kind of a man his father was?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. No, sir; not really. I talked to him about it very little, and I do know that just shortly after he came back from Los Angeles, Michael did buy this plot of land and he did pay cash, $3,000, and I had the impression that prior to his going to Los Angeles he didn't have the money. I had that impression because he commented that there was time for him to pay or give--we were talking about church donations during the coffee break one day shortly after that, and he commented that he was really going to have to do something about his bank account, it was time to pay his pledge dues at the Unitarian Church and he didn't have the money in the bank, and 3 or so weeks later he had $3,000, for a plot of land, so I am assuming, I am not a detective, that he had gotten the money from his father or from Art Young, who is his stepfather. One of those two persons, he had gotten the money. He had, if I remember correctly, Art Young was in Texas, so one of these two places he had gotten the money. Those are the impressions I had, that he had gotten it from his father.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any discussion about this with Michael?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. No, sir; I didn't. I want to make it clear that I don't know. These are impressions that I had.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Michael tell you that he went to Los Angeles for the purpose of visiting his father?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. No, sir; he didn't state it in that way. He said that his father offered to pay for the plane ticket to the west coast, and he thought it was a wonderful opportunity to visit his father, and this was the discussion prior to his leaving.
Mr. LIEBELER. He was not sent to the west coast on business for Bell Helicopter?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. No, sir; he has been sent to Pennsylvania on Bell Helicopter business. I am aware of that.

470

Mr. LIEBELER. But so far as you know, he was not sent to Los Angeles on Bell Helicopter business?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. No, sir; so far as I feel that if he had, that he would have told me.
Mr. LIEBELER. You are a friend of Michael Paine's?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. I would like to consider myself a friend of his, and by my telling you things, I feel that I am still a friend of his. I think that he is--I feel that he has absolutely nothing to hide, and in all honesty, I don't feel that what I tell you can in any way hurt him, and if it would hurt him, he has been going--he has been doing something he shouldn't have been doing, and if he has, why we need to know about it, because that is just the way I feel. I don't feel like I am squealing on him.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Michael tell you that his father had called him shortly after the assassination?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. No, sir; he didn't.
Mr. LIEBELER. As far as you know, the last contact Michael had with his father is when he went to Los Angeles shortly prior to the time he bought this tract in Irving?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes, sir; that is the last comment he made to me.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where were you when you learned that fact that the President had been shot?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. At the research laboratory. We were listening to the radio. We had listened to the President's speech from the Texas Hotel parking lot in Fort Worth. I think that almost every one at the laboratory honestly really liked President Kennedy and was all for him. We were much interested in him whenever he did make a speech. I believe during working hours we always listened to his speech, and we were listening to the radio at the time. When the first report came in, they had been talking about the motorcade through downtown Dallas, and switched to the Market Hall, and the commentator was talking from the Market Hall, and the first comment there, was a report that there was shots fired at the President. And he didn't say he had been hit. Then there was some discussion on the radio, and then it came through, this is official that the President of the United States has been fired at by an assassin or an attempted assassination. And in a little while it came through he had been hit and taken to Parkland Hospital, and the reports were that he and Governor Connally were both hit and both considered to be in serious condition. And it came through that they were both alive but both in extremely critical condition. And finally, I think it was about an hour later the report came through the President had expired. And Michael exhibited real outward emotion. He had his back turned and his head was down slightly and he really cried. And I don't feel that Michael is the type that could make crocodile tears in seriousness.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was Michael with you when you first heard of the fact that the President had been fired at?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes, sir; we were all in the lab in the office.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you eat lunch with Michael that day?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. No, sir; I didn't. I don't think I did. I do eat with him quite often off and on. Most of the time I stay at the lab and drink my can of Metrecal.
Mr. LIEBELER. To the best of your knowledge, you did not eat with Michael?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. I recall I did not that day, no.
Mr. LIEBELER. But also to the best of your recollection, you were both in the lab?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. We were both in the office portion of the lab. Michael has a stereo hi-fi that he brought to the lab for use by all of us.
Mr. LIEBELER. You were there at that time when you first heard that the President had been fired at?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. And immediately when the first report came in that the President had been fired at, three or four of us, I forget them, myself, Michael Paine, Ken Sambell, and Clarke Benham all gathered right around the radio like a bunch of ticks and stayed there.

471

Mr. LIEBELER. Was Mr. Noel there?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Dave Noel, yes; I believe he was. I believe Dave was the one that went to dinner with Michael, if I am correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. He went to lunch with Michael?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. As best you can recall, you had not heard anything about the attempted assassination prior to the time Michael and Dave returned from lunch?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. No; we were listening on the radio and heard the report. As far as being shot at, I can't remember exactly whether Michael was there when the very, very first report came in, but he was there when the report came in. He was there when the report came in that he had died.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you and Michael have any conversations about the assassination?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes; we did.
Mr. LIEBELER Tell us to the best of your recollection what he said?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. I commented, "Who in the blue-eyed world would do a thing like that?" And if I remember right, Michael didn't make any immediate comment at all about the assassination other than what a terrible thing and what in the world could he gain. We commented, first immediate impression was that possibly the John Birch people would have had a grievance against him, possibly, and we talked about that. And Michael said he didn't know. He wouldn't expect that the Communists would do it, yet at the same time he wouldn't expect the John Birch people to do it and wouldn't know. Then the first report came through that he had been fired at from Elm and Houston Streets in that area, and at that time Michael commented that, well, that is right close to the Texas School Book Depository. I did remember prior to the assassination Michael telling me that Oswald had finally gotten a job and he was working at the Texas School Book Depository, and at that particular time right then, I said, "You don't think it could be Oswald?" And he said, "No, it couldn't be him." At any rate, he had the same impression I had, that none of us could really believe it was a person they had met. It was such a big thing that a person doesn't imagine himself having met a person that could do such an act.
Mr. LIEBELER. Your first discussion with Michael on the question of Oswald's possible involvement in the assassination came after you had learned that the shots were fired in the vicinity of Elm and Houston near the Texas School Book Depository?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes; he commented about Elm and Houston, and he said that is where the Texas School Book Depository is, and the next comment was I commented, "Well isn't that where Oswald works?" And he says, "That is where he works." And I said, "Do you think it could be him?" And he said, "No; he doesn't see any way in the world it could have been him." But it wasn't but just a little bit----
Mr. LIEBELER. Let me interrupt you for a moment. You were the first one to mention Oswald's name in connection with the assassination between you and Michael Paine, is that correct?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes, sir; everyone was standing around.
Mr. LIEBELER. Why did you think of Oswald's name in connection with the assassination?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. I guess mainly because the first time I had heard of the Texas Book Depository was, Michael told me Oswald had gotten a job there. And when he said Texas Book, that was perhaps the second time I had ever heard the name. I don't know that I actually knew they had one. And when he said Texas Book Depository, it immediately rang right back. And I said, "That's where Oswald works." And I didn't think of Oswald shooting the President at that time. I just commented that was where he works. And then my next comment, "You don't think it could be him?" And he said, "No; of course not, it wouldn't be him." And it wasn't but just a little while later that we heard that Officer Tippit had been shot, and it wasn't very long after that that it came through that

472

the Oswald fellow had been captured, had had a pistol with him, and Michael used some expression, I have forgotten exactly what the expression was, and then he said, "The stupid," something, I have forgotten. It wasn't a complimentary thing. He said, "He is not even supposed to have a gun." And that I can quote, "He is not even supposed to have a gun." Or, "Not even supposed to own a gun," I have forgotten. We talked about it a little bit more, about how or why or what would the reasons be behind, that he would have absolutely nothing to gain, he could hurt himself and the nation, but couldn't gain anything personal, and we discussed it. That immediately ruled out the John Birch, but why would the Communists want him dead, and Michael couldn't imagine whether it was a plot or a rash action by the man himself. He didn't know which it could be. He said he didn't know. And he called home then to Ruth.
Mr. LIEBELER. Before we get into that, you specifically remember that Michael said that Oswald was not even supposed to have a gun?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes, sir; I remember that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember those exact words?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes. He could have said, "Oswald doesn't own a gun." That could be. That could be. The exact thing is cloudy a little bit.
Mr. LIEBELER. What is your best recollection on the point?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. My best recollection is, "He is not supposed to have a gun," or something in that vicinity. That is the best I remember right now.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have the impression----
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Now that you mentioned to me that he isn't supposed to own that gun, it is possible that he did say that, but the way I remember is that he said "He is not supposed to have a gun."
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you get the impression at that time that Michael had any foreknowledge of Oswald's possible involvement?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. None at all. I felt it hit him as a big shock.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now you said that you were the first one to mention Oswald's name?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. The basic reason you mentioned it was because you had associated his name with the Texas School Book Depository?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is there any other reason why you thought of Oswald in connection with the assassination?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Oh, it might possibly be; I can't really tell you, it was all just everything was going that way, and it was a trying thing of oppression and worry at that particular time. It may be that he is the only Communist I have ever been introduced to, that I knew was possibly a Communist or Marxist, or whatever they are, and he was the only villain I could think of at the time, possibly. And I didn't really feel that he was a villain. I didn't really feel it was him, but he was the only person I knew connected with the Communist Party, and if the Communist Party should be associated with something, his was the name that came to my mind, possibly. I feel the correlation came through the fact that Michael had told me about him getting a job at the Texas School Depository, and when I heard the name again, I feel that was the correlation that brought his name to my mind. A lot of these things, I don't know where or how they come to mind.
Mr. LIEBELER After you heard that Oswald had been apprehended in connection with the slaying of Officer Tippit, did you and Michael Paine then associate Oswald with the assassination of the President?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. I did, and I feel that Michael did also.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did you and Michael say to each other just very shortly after the word had come through?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. I can't really remember. Michael said that he felt that he should be going home, that Ruth and Marina are both going to be muchly upset and there was going to be people at the house asking questions, and he felt he should be there to answer them. He did say, if I can answer, "I feel I should be there."

473

Mr. LIEBELER. He said that prior to the time that Oswald had been publicly connected with the assassination, is that correct?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. I just really don't know. Prior to 0swald's being apprehended, there was a description of the man on the radio, if I remember correctly, and the shot had been--it had been reported that--can we go .back Just a little bit?
Mr. LIEBELER. Sure.
Mr. KRYSTINIK. More of this is coming back.
Mr. LIEBELER. Surely.
Mr. KRYSTINIK. At the time the radio had commented that the shots had come from the vicinity of the Texas School Book Depository, and they put out a description of a young man. After I had asked Michael about the possibility of Oswald, well, he commented that that is where Oswald works. Then they put out the description of the young man, and I said that fits him pretty good, to the best of my memory. You don't thank it could have been him? They did put out the description prior to his arrest and prior to his having shot Officer Tippit.
Mr. LIEBELER. The description seemed to fit Oswald?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. The description seemed to fit Oswald, and they did at that time, if I remember, comment on him being about 25 years old. I think that was the age they gave, weighing about 160 pounds, and being sandy head, and if I remember right, they said a fair complexion. I don't remember that part of it. And shortly, just a little while after that, they commented on Officer. Tippit having been shot and Oswald having been arrested in the Texas Theatre.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss with Michael the possibility that the description given fitted 0swald?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes; I did. I said it sounds like him. Do you think we should coal the FBI. And he said, "Let's wait a little bit." And at that particular time he said that he didn't see, any way in the world it could be Oswald at all. Besides, the man was in Oak Cliff, and Oswald was---works in the School Book Depository. They commented on the radio there was a man fitting this description and having shot Officer Tippet in Oak Cliff, and being shot. They commented on Tippit, and they were after him, and it was after they arrested him in the Oak Cliff Theatre.
Mr. LIEBELER. The description of this individual was given out after Officer Tippit had been shot, is that correct?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. It seems that someone had seen him shoot Officer Tippit. I don't remember that for sure, the description was on the radio.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did Michael say when you suggested that he call the FBI?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. He said, "If it is him, there is nothing they could do right now. It seems they are right after him. He didn't see in any way in the world it could be him. He didn't believe that it could be him." And then just a little bit after that, I can't remember time spans, that was a pretty bad day--when I first heard about it having been Oswald, to the best of my recollection, the thing he said was that, "He is not even supposed to have a gun." He may have been meaning to the best of his knowledge, he didn't know that he owned a gun. That would have been what he meant.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did it seem strange to you at the time that Michael didn't want to advise the FBI?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. No; it didn't at all. We had talked about--Michael is a little, I couldn't call him an odd duck, but he is very different. He doesn't like to intrude on anyone's personal privacy at all, I mean, the least little bit. I can be making a telephone conversation to my wife or to the company on business, and he is very careful not to come into the office, and he will see me on the telephone and turn around and go back. He is very careful to afford to other people all the privacy that he can. At the same time, we commented before when I had seen a fellow taking movies of the Chance Vought FAU 3 Crusader from the road above a .railroad embankment just north of the naval air station, of the 11735 and I was a little bit wrangled about it and accosted the man did he---if he couldn't read

474

signs, that that was an--that was a United States Government reservation and no photographs permitted, and he said he was recording the historical information of the aircraft for the future. It seems that no one is actually doing this and he was claiming this date and time that the FAU 3 was a fairly new airplane. And I don't know that taking that picture would hurt. The. re have been pictures of it in Aviation Week. It still wrangled me that someone would be taking pictures when there were signs up saying not to, and I accosted him, and I got his name. And I felt that he was probably lying to me, and I got his license number of his car, also. The next day while they were discussing the situation at work, and Michael said, regardless of the signs there, that he was standing in a public right-of-way, and anything that could be photographed from the public right-of- way he could technically, regardless of what the signs said on the fence. If it is something super secret, they should maintain a security check and faithfully check it out. I asked him if he thought I should go ahead and call the FBI or the security officer at the naval air station. He said, I could do what I wanted. He certainly wouldn't tell me not to. Yet at the same time it was entirely possible that the guy was a nut and doing exactly what he said he was doing, and we might cause him a lot of inconvenience and a lot of unhappiness by hollering wolf when the man had done nothing wrong. He said it would be better had I gone ahead at the time and had him arrested on the spot.
Mr. LIEBELER. You think that Michael's attitude toward calling the FBI in connection with Oswald's involvement was similar to the attitude that you explained in the situation you have just described?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes; and at the same time it still is his attitude. A fellow ran into the back of his Citroen and damaged it. And I said, "Well, you got his name, serial, license number and so forth?" And he said, "No, the man said that he would pay for it." I said, "Did you call the police in the event he sues you for a broken neck?" He said, "No, I take a man at his word." He exhibited that several times to assume him to be honest until you have good reason or absolute proof positive. He would have to see in his mind that the man had done it before he actually would bring forth civilly, because he would feel that the man was actually going to sue him before he would take measures to even protect himself. As it worked out, I don't know whether the man ever paid for fixing the back end of his car, because he drove it that way for a long time.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you talked to Michael since he returned from Washington?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss the testimony that he gave the Commission?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Only in that he said that he felt that he didn't give them anything that was news to them, that he said he told them about the same thing he told the FBI and other people that had talked to him. He felt that he hadn't earned his plane ticket.
Mr. LIEBELER. He didn't discuss any of the details of the testimony?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. No, sir; none of the details. At any rate, I did call the Security Officer and the naval air station in Dallas, and as it worked out, the fellow had been working for himself--seems he is out every Saturday and Sunday and that he had been checked out and is apparently a nut, rather than a Communist. Mr. LIEBELER. Can you think of anything else that you think the Commission should know about in connection with the assassination ?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Nothing in connection with the assassination. In connection with Michael, I would almost stake my reputation on his apparent honesty. I feel he is as good, I think, in his heart as he is on .the surface. Mr. LIEBELER. You don't think he had anything to do with the events leading up to the assassination? Mr. KRYSTINIK. I don't feel that he had anything to do with it. I think if he had been of a more suspicious nature, he could possibly have avoided the President being shot. He told me after the President was killed and after it had come out that

475

the rifle had possibly been stored at his home, that he had moved in his garage some sort of heavy object about this long wrapped up in a blanket, and he had the impression when he moved it this was some sort of camping equipment, and that it was considerably heavier than camping equipment he had been dealing with, and it never occurred to him it might be a gun or rifle that had been broken down.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you indicate approximately how long the package was?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. He said something about like that [indicating].
Mr. LIEBELER. How long would you say that was?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Looking at it, I would say 26 or 28 inches. Maybe 30 inches.
Mr. LIEBELER. [Measuring]. The witness indicates a length of approximately 27 inches.
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Michael might have had his hands up 2 or 3 inches different from that.
Mr. LIEBELER To the best of your recollection, Michael indicated the length of about 27 inches?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. He told you that he did not suspect at any time prior to the assassination that this package contained a rifle, is that correct?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. That's correct. Or a gun. He didn't state rifle in reference to the weapon. Michael had commented briefly that he had never had a gun or would not have a gun in his house. He is opposed. I would assume he is opposed to killing men. I know he is opposed to killing animals, and he doesn't believe in violence at all.
Mr. LIEBELER. Aside from this remark that you made about Michael Paine, is there anything else that you can think of that you would like to tell us in connection with either the assassination or Michael Paine at this point?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Nothing I can think of now. I have taken enough of your time. I can't really think of anything that is concrete from beginning to end that I feel would help you. I don't know of anything that is important.
Mr. LIEBELER. How well do you know Ruth Paine?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. We have been to her house once. We have been to the Dallas Dollar Concert with he and Ruth one time. We have had her at our house twice. Actually I can't say that I know her real well. I feel that I know Michael fairly well.
Mr. LIEBELER. You don't really know Ruth well? Well enough to make any judgment about her character?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Only when I have talked to her, I had an impression I have been talking to an extremely sincere and very warm person. I felt that if she had done something, she is of such a type she would say, "I did it." That is the impression I have about her. I don't know her well enough to make judgment upon her. I don't know Michael well enough to judge him. All I know of him is the association I had with him at work and the little bit I have had with him in my home. I don't actually know what he does on his off time, but in my association with him at work and what I know of him at home, I have actually come to love him as much as I love my brother.
Mr. LIEBELER. Based upon your knowledge of both of the Paines, you have no reason to suspect them of any involvement of any kind in the assassination, do you?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Only as victims of a very cruel twist of fate, that is all I can say, and that they are in that position because of their charity. I think it is a vexatious, cruel reward for charity, to be associated with the people, or to harbor the wife of the assassin--I won't say harbor--I don't say she had anything to do with it. Michael told me that Oswald visited the Paine residence on weekends.
Mr. LIEBELER. I don't have any more questions at this time. Unless you have something else you want to add we shall terminate the questioning. Thank you, Mr. Krystinik. Let me indicate that the witness is willing to waive signature of the transcript, is that so?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes, sir.

476