Testimony Of William H. Shelley

Mr. BALL - Will you hold up your right hand and, be sworn?
 

(Witness complying.)

Mr. BALL - Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give here today will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Sit down and state your name and your address.
Mr. SHELLEY - William Hoyt (spelling) Shelley, 126 South Tatum, Dallas 11.
Mr. BALL - Will you tell me something about yourself, where you were born and--
Mr. SHELLEY - I was born at Gunter, Tex.
Mr. BALL - What is your education?
Mr. SHELLEY - High school.
Mr. BALL - What have you been doing since then?
Mr. SHELLEY - I worked in defense plants a little bit during the war and started working at the Texas School Book Depository October 29, 1945.
Mr. BALL - (After leaving room for last answer, Mr. Ball returns.) Did you tell her all about yourself?
Mr. SHELLEY - You wanted to know when I was born.
Mr. BALL - You told us that, and you had your high school education?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - What kind of work have you done since then?
Mr. SHELLEY - I've told her.
Mr. BALL - How long have you worked at Texas School Book Depository?
Mr. SHELLEY - She already has it, October 29, 1945.
Mr. BALL - October 29, 1945---steady since that date?
Mr. SHELLEY - Oh, yes.
Mr. BALL - In November 1963, what was your job down there?
Mr. SHELLEY - Well, I am manager of the miscellaneous department and have been for several years.
Mr. BALL - Who is your immediate superior?
Mr. SHELLEY - Roy S. Truly.
Mr. BALL - What is his job?
Mr. SHELLEY - He is superintendent of the place.
Mr. BALL - Did you know Lee Oswald?
Mr. SHELLEY - He worked for me.
Mr. BALL - What kind of work did he do for you?
Mr. SHELLEY - He did good work.
Mr. BALL - What?
Mr. SHELLEY - He did good work.
Mr. BALL - What was it?
Mr. SHELLEY - Order filling.
Mr. BALL - As an order filler did he have access to any more than one floor?
Mr. SHELLEY - Oh, yes.
Mr. BALL - How many floors?
Mr. SHELLEY - Just about any of them outside the offices.
Mr. BALL - Were there certain floors that he worked more upon which he worked more frequently than other floors?
Mr. SHELLEY - The first floor is where all the order filling is done; the 5th, 6th, 7th floor are used for storage and when they need stock on the first floor anybody goes up and gets it.
Mr. BALL - So he would work mostly on the first floor and sometimes on 5, 6, and 7, is that what you mean?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Did you ever talk to him?
Mr. SHELLEY - Not too much; he wasn't too talkative. If I had something I wanted him to do, I would tell him and he usually did it.
Mr. BALL - His work was satisfactory?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - On the 22d of November 1963, did you see him come to work that morning?
Mr. SHELLEY - No, he was at work when I got there already filling orders.
Mr. BALL - Did you see him from time to time during that day?
Mr. SHELLEY - I am sure I did. I do remember seeing him when I came down to. eat lunch about 10 to 12.
Mr. BALL - Where had you been working?
Mr. SHELLEY - I had been on the sixth floor with the boys laying that floor that morning.
Mr. BALL - What time did you go down and eat lunch?
Mr. SHELLEY - It was around 10 'til.
Mr. BALL - Did you eat your lunch?
Mr. SHELLEY - No, I started eating.
Mr. BALL - Where did you start eating it?
Mr. SHELLEY - In my office next to Mr. Truly's and 1 ate part of it which I do usually and finish up later on in the day but I went outside then to the front,
Mr. BALL - Why did you go to the front?
Mr. SHELLEY - Oh, several people were out there waiting to watch the motorcade and I went out to join them.
Mr. BALL - And who was out there?
Mr. SHELLEY - Well, there was Lloyd Viles of McGraw-Hill, Sarah Stanton, she's with Texas School Book, and Wesley Frazier and Billy Lovelady joined us shortly afterwards.
Mr. BALL - You were standing where?
Mr. SHELLEY - Just outside the glass doors there.
Mr. BALL - That would be on the top landing of the entrance?
Mr. SHELLEY - yes.
Mr. BALL - Did you see the motorcade pass?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - What did you hear?
Mr. SHELLEY - Well, I heard something sounded like it was a firecracker and a slight pause and then two more a little bit closer together.
Mr. BALL - And then?
Mr. SHELLEY - I didn't think anything about it.
Mr. BALL - What did it sound like to you?
Mr. SHELLEY - Sounded like a miniature cannon or baby giant firecracker, wasn't real loud.
Mr. BALL - What happened; what did you do then?
Mr. SHELLEY - I didn't do anything for a minute.
Mr. BALL - What seemed to be the direction or source of the sound:?
Mr. SHELLEY - Sounded like it came from the west.
Mr. BALL - It sounded like it came from the west?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Then what happened?
Mr. SHELLEY - Gloria Calvary from South-Western Publishing Co. ran back up there crying and said "The President has been shot" and Billy Lovelady and myself took off across the street to that little, old island and we stopped there for a minute.
Mr. BALL - Across the street, you mean directly south?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, slightly to the right, you know where the light is there?
Mr. BALL - Yes.
Mr. SHELLEY - That little, old side street runs in front of our building and Elm Street.
Mr. BALL - It dead ends?
Mr. SHELLEY - There's concrete between the two streets.
Mr. BALL - Elm Street dead ends there just beyond the building, doesn't it?
Mr. SHELLEY - Well, that's also Elm that goes under the triple underpass.
Mr. BALL - That is Elm that goes under the triple underpass?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - You went to the concrete between the two Elm Streets?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, where they split.
Mr. BALL - You went out there and then what did you do?
Mr. SHELLEY - Well, officers started running down to the railroad yards and Billy and I walked down that way.
Mr. BALL - How did you get down that way; what course did you take?
Mr. SHELLEY - We walked down the middle of the little street.
Mr. BALL - The dead-end street?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Did you see Truly, Mr. Truly and an officer go into the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yeah, we saw them right at the front of the building while we were on the island.
Mr. BALL - While you were out there before you walked to the railroad yards?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Do you have any idea how long it was from the time you heard those three sounds or three noises until you saw Truly and Baker going into the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - It would have to be 3 or 4 minutes I would say because this girl that ran back up there was down near where the car was when the President was hit.
Mr. BALL - She ran back up to the door and you had still remained standing there?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Going to watch the rest of the parade were you?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - The Vice President hadn't gone by, had he, by your place?
Mr. SHELLEY - I don't know. I didn't recognize him. I did recognize Mr. Kennedy and his suntan I had been hearing about.
Mr. BALL - How did you happen to see Truly?
Mr. SHELLEY - We ran out on the island while some of the people that were out watching it from our building were walking back and we turned around and we saw an officer and Truly.
Mr. BALL - And Truly?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Did you see them go into the building?
MMr. SHELLEY - No; we didn't watch that long but they were at the first step like they were fixin' to go in.
Mr. BALL - Were they moving at the time, walking or running?
Mr. SHELLEY - Well, they were moving, yes.
Mr. BALL - Were they running?
Mr. SHELLEY - That, I couldn't swear to; there were so many people around.
Mr. BALL - What did you and Billy Lovelady do?
Mr. SHELLEY - We walked on down to the first railroad track there on the dead-end street and stood there and watched them searching cars down there in the parking lots for a little while and then we came in through our parking lot at the west end.
Mr. BALL - At the west end?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes; and then in the side door into the shipping room.
Mr. BALL - When you came into the shipping room did you see anybody?
Mr. SHELLEY - I saw Eddie Piper.
Mr. BALL - What was he doing?
Mr. SHELLEY - He was coming back from where he was watching the motorcade in the southwest corner of the shipping room.
Mr. BALL - Of the first floor of the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Who else did you see?
Mr. SHELLEY - That's all we saw immediately.
Mr. BALL - Did you ever see Vickie Adams?
Mr. SHELLEY - I saw her that day but I don't remember where I saw her.
Mr. BALL - You don't remember whether you saw her when you came back?
Mr. SHELLEY - It was after we entered the building.
Mr. BALL - You think you did see her after you entered the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, sir; I thought it was on the fourth floor awhile after that.
Mr. BALL - Now, did the police come into the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, sir; they started coming in pretty fast.
Mr. BALL - Did you go with them any place?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes; Mr. Truly left me guarding the elevator, not to let anybody up and down the elevator or stairway and some plainclothesmen came in; I don't know whether they were Secret Service or FBI or what but they wanted me to take them upstairs, so we went up and started searching the various floors.
Mr. BALL - Did you go up on the sixth floor?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Were you there when they found anything up there?
Mr. SHELLEY - I was, I believe I was on the sixth floor when they found the gun but we were searching all parts of that floor.
Mr. BALL - Now, did you find any chicken bones up there or see any?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, I went up later on that day; I believe after we had gotten back from City Hall with someone, I don't remember who it was, one of the officers and they got them.
Mr. BALL - They did what?
Mr. SHELLEY - They got the bones.
Mr. BALL - Where were they?
Mr. SHELLEY - They were on the third--yeah, it would be the third window from the southeast corner.
Mr. BALL - And were they in a sack?
Mr. SHELLEY - Laying on a sack.
Mr. BALL - Laying on a sack?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, sir; with a coke bottle sitting in the window.
Mr. BALL - Did you see any other chicken bones anyplace around there?
Mr. SHELLEY - No, sir; that's all.
Mr. BALL - That's the only ones?
Mr. SHELLEY - That's all.
Mr. BALL - Did you see anybody eating fried chicken on that floor that morning?
Mr. SHELLEY - At one time I think I said I did but Charles Givens was the guy that was eating and he was further on over toward the west side and he was eating a sandwich so he says.
Mr. BALL - Now you say that you thought that you had seen someone had eaten fried chicken that morning?
Mr. SHELLEY - I thought I had; those colored boys are always eating chicken.
Mr. BALL - Do you think you did or do you know?
Mr. SHELLEY - I asked Charles Givens whether it was him that was eating and he said it was a sandwich.
Mr. BALL - Was that before you went down for lunch?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, sir; it was pretty early in the morning, about 9:30.
Mr. BALL - Where was it?
Mr. SHELLEY - It was two-thirds across the building toward the west because I didn't put plywood over there and he didn't get too far from where we were actually working.
Mr. BALL - After you heard these noises you said sounded like firecrackers this girl came up and said the President was shot?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yeah.
Mr. BALL - You were still standing there?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - There was still some time lapse from the time you heard the noise like a firecracker and she came up?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Then you went out across Elm?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, to the divider.
Mr. BALL - Between the two Elm Streets?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - The one street dead ends and the other street that goes on down under the viaduct?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Did you run out to the point or walk out?
MMr. SHELLEY - I believe we trotted out there.
Mr. BALL - Did you stay very long?
Mr. SHELLEY - Oh, it wasn't very long.
Mr. BALL - How long?
Mr. SHELLEY - Maybe a minute or two.
Mr. BALL - And that's the place you saw Truly and Baker, you say, going into the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, uh-huh,
Mr. BALL - Then you went down the Elm Street that dead ends to the first railroad track?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - That's about what distance?
Mr. SHELLEY - Approximately 100 yards.
Mr. BALL - Did you trot, run or walk?
Mr. SHELLEY - We were walking but it was a pretty fast walk.
Mr. BALL - Did you stay there any length of time?
Mr. SHELLEY - Not very long.
Mr. BALL - How long would you say?
Mr. SHELLEY - I wouldn't say over a minute or minute and a half.
Mr. BALL - Then you went back to the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Did you trot or run back to the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - We just walked back; took our good, old easy time more or less.
Mr. BALL - Then you went into the west end?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Did you see Vickie Adams after you came into the building and did you see her on the first floor?
Mr. SHELLEY - I sure don't remember.
Mr. BALL - You don't.
Mr. SHELLEY - No.
Mr. BALL - Did Oswald use a clipboard?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - On which he kept his orders?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Is it a clipboard you gave him to use or one---
Mr. SHELLEY - It's one he picked up.
Mr. BALL - Picked up where?
Mr. SHELLEY - Just laying around.
Mr. BALL - There are clipboards that the order fillers use there?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yeah, some of them are on bakelite and some we just use a clip and maybe a piece of cardboard.
Mr. BALL - Did he use the same one at all times?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes; as far as I know.
Mr. BALL - Now at a later time do you remember a clipboard being found?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Do you know who found it?
Mr. SHELLEY - Frankie Kaiser.
Mr. BALL - Where did he find it?
Mr. SHELLEY - He found it on the sixth floor in the corner of the stairway.
Mr. BALL - Did he show you the place?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Point it out to you?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes; so I invited Mr. Pinkston---
Mr. BALL - Mr. who?
Mr. SHELLEY - Pinkston of the FBI.
Mr. BALL - Did he come out and get the clipboard?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes; he got it.
Mr. BALL - But Frankie Kaiser pointed it out to you, did he?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - And you called the FBI and pointed it out to him?
Mr. SHELLEY - He was down there at the time and I told him about it and he and Frankie and I went up and got it.
Mr. BALL - Do you know what date?
Mr. SHELLEY - No, sir; that, I sure couldn't tell you. It was the following week though, I am pretty sure.
Mr. BALL - You mean after the 22d, the following, you say, the 22d of November?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Did you examine that clipboard?
Mr. SHELLEY - No, sir.
Mr. BALL - Did you examine it to see whether. or not there was on the clipboard any orders?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Unfilled orders?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, sir; there were some invoices on it.
Mr. BALL - Were you able to identify those invoices and state to whom they had been assigned to fill?
Mr. SHELLEY - They were Scott, Foresman invoices.
Mr. BALL - Scott, Foresman invoices?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, sir; and he filled mostly Scott, Foresman orders.
Mr. BALL - Who is "he"?
Mr. SHELLEY - Oswald.
Mr. BALL - Oswald filled mostly Scott, Foresman orders?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - That is Foresman [spelling]?
Mr. SHELLEY - Foresman [spelling].
Mr. BALL - Was there any other order filler who filled Scott, Foresman invoices?
Mr. SHELLEY - Any of the other boys would if they ran out of other publishers' orders. When I get those orders, I sort them according to publishers and during rush season like that, usually, have one guy sticking as close to one publisher as he can because skipping back and forth you have different codes and everything and it is confusing to them.
Mr. BALL - So, in the morning would you have assigned all Scott, Foresman to Oswald on that Friday morning?
Mr. SHELLEY - He already had the orders and was working when I got there.
Mr. BALL - He bad?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Who would determine what orders they would get?
Mr. SHELLEY - When we run out of orders they get to one of the boxes and get orders for Scott, Foresman. He had been trained for Scott, Foresman.
Mr. BALL - Would orders be assigned the day before?
Mr. SHELLEY - No, sir; we don't definitely assign them to anyone. The boys know what they can fill best and as long as they are putting the work out---
Mr. BALL - I want to know how a man working on Scott, Foresman--suppose Oswald came to work on Friday morning, tell me what routine he would follow, where he would get the orders he was to fill.
Mr. SHELLEY - He would go over to the order desk and get them out of a box marked Scott, Foresman.
Mr. BALL - They would have Scott, Foresman on it?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Is he the only one that in the morning when he came to would get the orders out of the box marked Scott, Foresman?
Mr. SHELLEY - No, sir; if there wasn't any orders in any of the other boxes any other order filler would take them.
Mr. BALL - Do you know whether or not he was filling Scott, Foresman orders that day?
Mr. SHELLEY - No, sir; not for sure.
Mr. BALL - Do you know whether anybody else was filling Scott, Foresman orders that day?
Mr. SHELLEY - I am sure they were; that's our biggest publishers; there's more of them.
Mr. BALL - Then you believe others besides Oswald were filling Scott, Foresman orders that day?
Mr. SHELLEY - Probably were.
Mr. BALL - Is there any way .you can determine what order filler had that clipboard?
Mr. SHELLEY - No, sir.
Mr. BALL - On November 22, 1963?
Mr. SHELLEY - No, sir; it's one that looked like the one he had used.
Mr. BALL - It did look like the one he had used?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - There were how many unfilled orders on that clipboard when it was found?
Mr. SHELLEY - Two or three, best I remember.
Mr. BALL - Did you keep a list of them?
Mr. SHELLEY - No, sir.
Mr. BALL - Did anybody make a list of them?
Mr. SHELLEY - Not unless Mr. Pinkston did.
Mr. BALL - Mr. Pinkston of the FBI?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes; he called in about the thing and in a little while he released it and said go ahead and fill the orders which we did because they were several days old.
Mr. BALL - You mean those orders that were on that clipboard had never been filled?
Mr. SHELLEY - No, sir.
Mr. BALL - So you went ahead and filled them?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - How do you spell his name Pinkston?
Mr. SHELLEY - I don't know how to spell it. Mr. Pinkston is all I know.
Mr. BALL - Pinkston, okay. I think that's all, Mr. Shelley. Thanks very much. This will be written up and you can come down and read it and sign it or we can waive signature; which would you rather do?
Mr. SHELLEY - I suppose it doesn't make any difference. What are the others doing?
Mr. BALL - Some waived, some insist on reading it; which would you rather do?
Mr. SHELLEY - I would kind of like to see it for curiosity.
Mr. BALL - Come down and sign it, all right. Where was the clipboard found?
Mr. SHELLEY - On the sixth floor in the far corner.
Mr. BALL - Which corner?
Mr. SHELLEY - By the stairway.
Mr. BALL - That would be the northwest?
Mr. SHELLEY - Northwest, yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - All right, fine. Thank you very much, Mr. Shelley.