TESTIMONY OF JOE MARSHALL SMITH
The testimony of Joe Marshall Smith was taken at 1 p.m., on July 23,
1964, in the office of the
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you rise and raise your right hand?
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
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Mr. SMITH. I do.
Mr. LIEBELER. Please sit down. My
name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am
an attorney on the staff of the President's Commission on the
Assassination of President Kennedy. I have been authorized to take your
testimony by the Commission, pursuant to authority granted to it by Executive
Order No. 11130 dated November 29, 1963, and joint resolution of Congress No.
137. Under the rules of procedure, you are entitled to have an attorney present,
and you are entitled to 3 days' notice of your hearing. I know you didn't get
that, because I just called you this morning, but I assume that since you are
here, you are prepared to go ahead without an attorney, is that correct?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you state your full name for the record?
Mr. SMITH. Joe Marshall Smith.
Mr. LIEBELER. What is your address?
Mr. SMITH. 12015 Androck. That is in
Mr. LIEBELER. When were you born?
Mr. SMITH. May 1, 1932.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where?
Mr. SMITH.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you outline briefly for us your educational
background?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir. I went to grade school in Seagoville up to the
second grade. Then I went to
Mr. LIEBELER. You are presently a uniformed officer of the Dallas Police
Department?
Mr. SMITH. That's right.
Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you been with the Dallas Police Department?
Mr. SMITH. Oh, nearly 8
years, in September it will be.
Mr. LIEBELER. During that time, you have been working basically as a
uniformed officer, patrolman?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you been working in any specific type of assignment,
or just what has been the nature of your work?
Mr. SMITH. Well, I was in radio patrol 3 1/2 years. Then I went to
traffic division point control, and that is what I am doing presently.
Mr. LIEBELER. I understand that you were assigned to work in the vicinity
of Elm and
Mr. SMITH. Correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us when you first got that assignment and
what you were told.
Mr. SMITH. At approximately 8:45 or 9 o'clock that morning, November 22,
we made detail, and Capt. P. W. Lawrence gave us the instructions that we were
to, of course, hold the traffic up when the motorcade came through, and to
assist in the crowd control, and be specifically on the lookout for anyone
throwing anything from the crowd. That is about all I remember.
Mr. LIEBELER. How many officers were with you as you were instructed at
the detail at 8:45? That means,
there was a formation of something in the office?
Mr. SMITH. There was quite a few there.
I don't know how many were there, but nearly the whole traffic department
was there.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did they all receive instructions from Captain Lawrence at
the same time, or were they different specific instructions broken down?
Mr. SMITH. There were some broken down instructions that some of the men
had to stay over to get different detail aimed to them, but that was my
instructions.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you receive those instructions in writing, or delivered
orally?
Mr. SMITH. Delivered orally.
Mr. LIEBELER. In other words,
the captain or someone working with the captain would have a list and he
assigned certain men to certain places and gave them general instructions as to
what they were to do; is that correct?
Mr. SMITH. That's correct.
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Mr. LIEBELER. Men from the department were assigned all along the
motorcade route from the airport into downtown
Mr. SMITH. Correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. And other men were given instructions similar to or the
same as the ones that you were given?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Which was to keep traffic out of the way when the motorcade
was coming, and keep an open and clear route, and to engage in general crowd
control activities?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Were there any instructions given to you men about scanning
buildings?
Mr. SMITH. Sir, I don't
remember. It is more or less the
general thing to do. I mean, just
police the area. But I don't
remember any specific instructions on that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now after you
received your instructions at 8:45, what did you do?
Mr. SMITH. I proceeded to the
intersection of Elm and
Mr. LIEBELER. Were there any other officers there in connection with this
fellow that had the epileptic fit?
Mr. SMITH. Yes; there was one more. He was a radio patrolman.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember his name?
Mr. SMITH. I don't remember his name. I swear, I was trying to think of
it before this even.
Mr. LIEBELER. He was a radio patrolman? You mean he was driving a
motorcycle or had a car?
Mr. SMITH. No; he was assigned, I think, if I am not mistaken, I think he
was assigned to Main and
Mr. LIEBELER. So you called an ambulance, or an ambulance was called and
this man was taken away, and you went back to the corner of Elm and
Mr. SMITH. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. How many officers were assigned at Elm and
Mr. SMITH. Three of us.
Mr. LIEBELER. Who were the other two men?
Mr. SMITH. W. E. Barnett, and
E. L. Smith. I think that is his initials. I
know it is another Smith boy anyway.
Mr. LIEBELER. How did you
station yourself when you got there?
Mr. SMITH. Just after we got
the epileptic seizure en route to the hospital, I hadn't gotten back to the
corner but just a few minutes until the motorcade was coming, so I stationed
myself on Elm Street in the middle from the southeast curb of Elm and Houston
and held traffic up.
Mr. LIEBELER. Which direction would this traffic have been coming from
that you held up?
Mr. SMITH. It was heading west on Elm.
Mr. LIEBELER. Coming down Elm toward the triple underpass?
Coming into the intersection of Elm and
Mr. SMITH. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. So you were the individual patrolman who went back and held
up the traffic to Elm. Street; is that right?
Mr. SMITH. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. So you would have been on the eastern side of
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. From that position, could you have observed the windows on
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the side of the
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; I could see some of the windows.
I couldn't see them all, but I was pretty busy getting traffic held up,
and I must admit I had my back to the
Mr. LIEBELER. Because you were facing traffic that was coming down
Mr. SMITH. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. So you had no opportunity to scan the windows of the
Mr. SMITH. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you did not scan the building?
Mr. SMITH. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now did you notice anything extraordinary in the crowd as
far as a crowd control is concerned? Did
you have any problems in that connection, or was it just a matter of holding up
the traffic?
Mr. SMITH. No, sir; we didn't have any trouble with the crowd at that
.particular intersection. They stayed back pretty well as they were told, and I
got all the cars stopped, so I thought we had it made.
Mr. LIEBELER. I show you a picture, an aerial view of the area that is
marked Commission Exhibit No. 354. Could you locate the
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; it should be right there.
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; that is it on the left-hand side of the picture, and
of course, the intersection of Elm and
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; right here.
Mr. LIEBELER. Of
Mr. SMITH. Right along in this area.
Mr. LIEBELER. There is, in fact, a picture of a car stopped there right
at the intersection of Elm and
Mr. SMITH. Just about the middle of
Mr. LIEBELER. I will put the No. 4 in a circle on the spot of
approximately where you were standing at the time the motorcade went by.
Is that approximately correct?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. You were facing east up
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. So that your back was in fact turned to the
Mr. SMITH. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now there are two or three other buildings here in the
immediate vicinity as you are facing east on
Mr. SMITH. I know, but I can't remember now.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you observe any activity in any of the windows of that
building?
Mr. SMITH. No, sir; I didn't
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have occasion to look to the windows of that
building at any time when the motorcade came by?
That would be the building to your left.
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir. I don't recall, but I know that I must have,
because. I was trying to keep all
the crowd in sight that was around. I
know that I must have glanced at it, but I don't recall seeing anything unusual.
Mr. LIEBELER. What about the building across
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. There are a series of windows in that building facing the
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triple underpass. Could you
observe those windows from the point where you were standing?
Mr. SMITH. No, sir; not where
I could tell whether they were open or closed.
Mr. LIEBELER. Because you were standing too far up
Mr. SMITH. I mean on
Mr. LIEBELER. That is what I mean.
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. You wouldn't have been able to see the windows of the
building that is down on the intersection of Main and
Mr. SMITH. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. If you could have seen, it would have been with great
difficulty, so you weren't in position to observe those windows, and you didn't
in fact observe them, is that correct?
Mr. SMITH. Correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. While you were standing here and the motorcade went by,
tell us what happened at that point.
Mr. SMITH. I heard the shots.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you turn to watch the motorcade?
Did you turn to watch the President as the motorcade went by?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; I glanced around and was watching the crowd to make
sure they stayed back out of the way of the motorcade, and also to make sure
none of the cars started up or anything. Then I heard the shots, and I
immediately proceeded from this point.
Mr. LIEBELER. Point 4 on Commission Exhibit No. 354?
Mr. SMITH. I started up toward this Book Depository after I heard the
shots, and I didn't know where the shots came from.
I had no idea, because it was such a ricochet.
Mr. LIEBELER. An echo effect?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.; and this woman came up to me and she was just in
hysterics. She told me, "They are shooting the President from the
bushes." So I immediately proceeded up here.
Mr. LIEBELER. You proceeded up to an area immediately behind the concrete
structure here that is described by Elm Street and the street that runs
immediately in front of the Texas School Book Depository, is that right?
Mr. SMITH. I was checking all the bushes and I checked all the cars in
the parking lot.
Mr. LIEBELER. There is a parking lot in behind this grassy area back from
Elm Street toward the railroad tracks, and you went down to the parking lot and
looked around?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; I checked all the cars. I looked into all the cars
and checked around the bushes. Of course, I wasn't alone. There was some deputy
sheriff with me, and I believe one Secret Service man when I got there.
I got to make this statement, too. I felt awfully silly, but after the
shot and this woman, I pulled my pistol from my holster, and I thought, this is
silly, I don't know who I am looking for, and I put it back.
Just as I did, he showed me that he was a Secret Service agent.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you accost this man?
Mr. SMITH. Well, he saw me coming with my pistol and right away he showed
me who he was.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember
who it was?
Mr. SMITH. No, sir; I don't--because then we started checking the cars.
In fact, I was checking the bushes, and I went through the cars, and I
started over here in this particular section.
Mr. LIEBELER. Down toward the railroad tracks where they go over the
triple underpass?
Mr. SMITH. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any basis for believing where the shots came
from, or where to look for somebody, other than what the lady told you?
Mr. SMITH. No, sir; except that maybe it was a power of suggestion.
But it sounded to me like they may have came from this vicinity here.
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Mr. LIEBELER. Down around the---let's put a No. 5 there at the corner
here behind this concrete structure where the bushes were down toward the
railroad tracks from the Texas School Book Depository Building on the little
street that runs down in front of the Texas School Book Depository Building.
Mr. SMITH. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now you say that you had the idea that the shots may have
come from up in that area?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; that is just what, well, like I say, the sound of
it. That was the most helpless and
hopeless feeling I ever had.
Mr. LIEBELER. Well, you mentioned before there was an echo from the shots
in the area.
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Probably caused by the fact that there are some large
buildings around the area where the shots were fired from?
Mr. SMITH. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now did you at any time have occasion to look up to the
railroad tracks that went across the triple underpass?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; I looked up there after I was going up to check
there.
Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't have any occasion to 'look up there before you
heard the shots?
Mr. SMITH. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. After you heard the shots, you proceeded down along the
bushes here between the street that runs in front of the Texas School Book
Depository Building and Elm Street to approximately point 5, and then when you
went down looking to the cars, you then had occasion to look up at the railroad
tracks running over the triple underpass?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see anybody up there?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; there was two other officers there, I know.
Mr. LIEBELER. Were there any other people up there, that you can
remember?
Mr. SMITH. No, sir; none that I remember.
Mr. LIEBELER. But you remember that there were two police officers up
there?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now you searched these cars in this parking lot area down
there by the railroad tracks on from point 5 down toward the main railroad
tracks that cross over the triple underpass. Did you find anything that you
could associate in any way with the assassination?
Mr. SMITH. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. How long did you remain down in that area?
Mr. SMITH. Oh, I would say approximately 15 to 20 minutes.
Mr. LIEBELER. During that time, you continued searching through
automobiles and searching the general area in the parking lot back there; is
that right?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did you do after you had searched this area?
Mr. SMITH. Well, it was, I don't remember whether this was a deputy
sheriff--I don't know his name he was in civilian clothes--he said they came
from the building up here. And by that time, of course, all the police around
there sealed the building off, and I went to the front door here on the, well,
you might say, the
Mr. LIEBELER. Let me ask you this. Before
you went up to the
Mr. SMITH. Well, now, I
didn't go into all the cars. I
looked into them, and I was well satisfied in my mind that he wasn't around
there.
Some of the cars were locked, and I just looked into all of them around
there, and I went back to the building.
Mr. LIEBELER. Who gave you instructions to go to the front door of that
building, do you remember?
Mr. SMITH. I believe it was Sergeant Howard.
Mr. LIEBELER. Sergeant Howard?
Mr. SMITH. Sergeant Howard, or Sergeant Harkness.
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Mr. LIEBELER. So to the best of your recollection, it was one of those
two men?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir. Wait---let's
strike that. No; it wasn't. It was
Chief Lumpkin give us the direct order, I and Barnett, not to let anyone in or
out of that building; that's right--Deputy Chief Lumpkin.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you see him in order to receive that order?
Mr. SMITH. I started back up here to the building, and we were just about
at the front door when he contacted me and Barnett then.
Mr. LIEBELER. He instructed
you and Barnett to stand at the front door and not let anyone in or out?
Mr. SMITH. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know approximately what time that was?
Mr. SMITH. No, sir; it must
have been about 1. It was after I
o'clock. I don't remember; no.
Mr. LIEBELER. How long did you and Barnett remain there at the front
door?
Mr. SMITH. Until about 2:30; I think I got off there.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you at any time go into the building?
Mr. SMITH. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether other men were assigned to watch the
back door?
Mr. SMITH. No, sir; I don't
know. I am quite certain there was.
Mr. LIEBELER. But you had no
personal knowledge of it at the time?
Mr. SMITH. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Because you were assigned to the front door, and that is
where you stayed?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. In fact, did you let anybody in or out of the building?
Mr. SMITH. Well, now, we let police officers in, of course, and firemen.
Mr. LIEBELER. The firemen came into the building?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; there was something on that that they had to get
some--- what was that, I don't recall what it was that they come in there for
now.
Mr. LIEBELER There were some firemen from the
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did they come back to the front door?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. How about Secret Service; were there any Secret Service
agents around?
Mr. SMITH. I don't know, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Agent Sorrels, the agent in charge of the
Mr. SMITH. I saw him a few minutes, but I don't know him personally.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember seeing him around that day?
Mr. SMITH. No, sir; I don't remember.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you at any time see Lee Harvey Oswald come in or out of
the building, or in the area at all?
Mr. SMITH. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is there anything that happened while you were standing
there with Barnett at the front door that you think would be of significance
that the Commission should know about that I haven't asked you about?
Mr. SMITH. No, sir; I don't.
Mr. LIEBELER. You just maintained the general guard duty there and only
let the police officers and fire department in, and you don't have any specific
recollection as to Secret Service agents. How
about FBI agents; were there some of those?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; there were FBI agents.
Mr. LIEBELER. You let them go in?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember any specific FBI agents that were there?
Mr. SMITH. No, sir; I don't remember any of the names.
Mr. LIEBELER. Who finally relieved you from that particular duty post?
Mr. SMITH. Let me think here
a minute now. Chief Lumpkin, I
know--I don't recall who the officer was.
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Mr. LIEBELER. I don't think it is of any particular importance if you
can't recall. What did you do after
you were finally relieved?
Mr. SMITH. I don't know if this is of significance either, but they had
set up, the Salvation Army had some coffee and I had a cup of coffee and
proceeded on back to the Mercantile Bank. I had an extra job there that evening.
Mr. LIEBELER. You were relieved from your duty post?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. And went on about your own personal affairs?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you conduct any additional investigation or have to do
with the investigation of the assassination after that?
Mr. SMITH. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know Officer Tippit?
Mr. SMITH. Remotely.
I didn't know him real well. Just
knew him when I saw him.
Mr. LIEBELER. When did you first hear about Oswald's capture?
Mr. SMITH. It was after I left my post.
Mr. LIEBELER. After you left your post?
Mr. SMITH. Yes; in fact, just before I got off from working at the bank.
Just before 6 o'clock. A
squad of detectives, I don't recall their names, but they told me they got a man
over at the Texas Theatre that they thought might have been the one.
Mr. LIEBELER. After you heard the shots and went from point 4 on
Commission Exhibit No. 354 down to point 5 searching the bushy area here, did
you have any occasion to look up in the windows of any of the buildings
surrounding the intersection of Elm and Houston Streets?
Mr. SMITH. No, sir; I was--pardon the expression--beating the bushes and
checking the cars.
Mr. SMITH. No sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Are you familiar with the traffic patterns on these three
streets here, Commerce, Main, and Elm Streets, as they go down under the triple
underpass?
Mr. SMITH Yes sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. The motorcade came down
Mr. SMITH. Yes; headed west on
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; and it turned right on Houston Street and then turned
left on Elm and was headed toward the triple underpass when the assassination
occurred. What would have prevented the motorcade from going directly down
Mr. SMITH. I don't know, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, could you have gone straight down
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where the three streets go under the triple overpass, there
is a concrete barrier between
Mr. SMITH. What do you mean?
Mr. LIEBELER. Where the streets actually go under the railroad tracks
here.
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIBELER. Now where is the entrance as we go off, as we see the three
streets going off the picture here, Commission Exhibit No. 354?
Where is the entrance to the Stemmons Freeway?
Mr. SMITH. It is back off.
Mr. LIEBELER. It is not shown on the picture?
Mr. SMITH. No, sir; it is back off here.
Mr. LIEBELER. To go down Stemmons Expressway or Freeway towards the trade
mart, you would have to turn how? Would
you turn to your right?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now could you have actually gone off to the right and
crossed
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over Elm Street if you had been on
Mr. SMITH. They merge.
Mr. LIEBELER. They all merge together down there?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. So as far as you know, there was no reason why the
motorcade couldn't have gone straight down Elm Street and gone on to the
Stemmons Freeway headed for the trade mart?
Mr. SMITH. As far as I know, there is no reason.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is it possible that as you come down Main Street, if you
stayed directly on Main Street going under the triple underpass, that you might
have difficulty in making the turn with a big car from Main Street to go onto
Stem-mons Freeway?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. I don't think I have any more questions about the
situation, unless you can think of something else that you might have seen or
observed that day that I haven't asked you about, that you think the Commission
should know.
Mr. SMITH. Sir, I just can't think of anything else.
Mr. LIEBELER. I want to thank you very much for coming over.
I appreciate your cooperation.
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; thank you.
Welcome Eugene Barnett
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