3126 HARLEND
clip falls out of manlichert-carcano when last round is chambered
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<b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">.</span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"> </pre> <table class="MsoNormalTable" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" width="100%" style="width: 100.0%" id="table3"> <tr> <td colspan="2" style="padding:0in 0in 0in 0in"> <p class="MsoNormal"> <span class="gwt-inlinelabelgux-confirm-panel-message"><b> <span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">This topic is no longer open for new replies due to inactivity. If you'd like to post a message, please search for a more recent topic above or post a new question.</span></b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td style="padding:0in 0in 0in 0in"> <p class="MsoNormal"><span class="gfwsc1udh0b"><b> <span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Arial"><span id="t-t">The Mannlicher Carcano clip issue</span></span></b></span><b><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Arial"> </span></b></p> <p class="MsoNormal"><span class="gfwsc1udahc"><b> <span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">This topic is a duplicate of another discussion. </span></b></span> <span class="gfwsc1udbhc"></span></p> <p class="MsoNormal"><span class="gfwsc1udn3b"><b> <span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">You were redirected here from a duplicate topic. </span></b></span> <span class="gfwsc1udm3b"></span></p> <p class="MsoNormal"><b> <span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Arial">19 posts by 4 authors</span></b></p> <p class="MsoNormal"><b> <span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Arial"><!--[if gte vml 1]><v:shapetype id="_x0000_t75" coordsize="21600,21600" o:spt="75" o:preferrelative="t" path="m@4@5l@4@11@9@11@9@5xe" filled="f" stroked="f"> <v:stroke joinstyle="miter"/> <v:formulas> <v:f eqn="if lineDrawn pixelLineWidth 0"/> <v:f eqn="sum @0 1 0"/> <v:f eqn="sum 0 0 @1"/> <v:f eqn="prod @2 1 2"/> <v:f eqn="prod @3 21600 pixelWidth"/> <v:f eqn="prod @3 21600 pixelHeight"/> <v:f eqn="sum @0 0 1"/> <v:f eqn="prod @6 1 2"/> <v:f eqn="prod @7 21600 pixelWidth"/> <v:f eqn="sum @8 21600 0"/> <v:f eqn="prod @7 21600 pixelHeight"/> <v:f eqn="sum @10 21600 0"/> </v:formulas> <v:path o:extrusionok="f" gradientshapeok="t" o:connecttype="rect"/> <o:lock v:ext="edit" aspectratio="t"/> </v:shapetype><v:shape id="_x0000_s1063" type="#_x0000_t75" alt="" style='width:.75pt; 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font-family: Arial; display: none"> Previous </span></b></p> <p class="MsoNormal"><span class="gfwsc1uddu"> <span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"><b> Page 1</b></span></span></p> <p class="MsoNormal"><span class="gfwsc1uddhc"><b> <span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">Next</span></b></span><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> Next</span></b></td> <td style="padding:0in 0in 0in 0in"> <p class="MsoNormal"><b> <span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Arial"> </span></b></td> </tr> </table> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <table class="MsoNormalTable" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" width="100%" style="width: 100.0%; display: none" aria-hidden="true" id="table4"> <tr style="display: none"> <td style="padding:0in 0in 0in 0in"> <p class="MsoNormal"><b> <span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></td> </tr> </table> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b><span class="gfwsc1udk5b"></span></pre> <span aria-hidden="true" id="l_escalation_topic"> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b> <span class="gfwsc1udk5b"></span></b></span></pre> <span aria-hidden="true" id="t_moved_topic"> <table class="MsoNormalTable" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" id="table5"> <tr> <td valign="top" style="padding:0in 0in 0in 0in"> <p class="MsoNormal"><b><!--[if gte vml 1]><v:shape id="_x0000_s1062" type="#_x0000_t75" alt="" style='width:.75pt;height:.75pt'> <v:imagedata src="" o:href="https://groups.google.com/forum/clear.cache.gif"/> </v:shape><![endif]--></b></td> <td valign="top" style="padding:0in 0in 0in 0in"> <p class="MsoNormal"><span class="gfwsc1udpnb"><b> <span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:#222222">Raymond</span></b></span><b><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family: Arial"> </span></b></td> <td valign="top" style="padding:0in 0in 0in 0in"> <p class="MsoNormal" align="right" style="text-align:right"><b> <span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Arial"><!--[if gte vml 1]><v:shape id="_x0000_s1061" type="#_x0000_t75" alt="" style='width:.75pt;height:.75pt'> <v:imagedata src="" o:href="https://groups.google.com/forum/clear.cache.gif"/> </v:shape><![endif]--></span></b></p> <p class="MsoNormal" align="right" style="text-align:right"> <span class="gfwsc1udldbgfwsc1udldc"><b> <span title="Monday, July 26, 2010 11:13:19 AM UTC-4" role="menu"> 7/26/10</span></b></span><b><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family: Arial"> </span></b></td> </tr> </table> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> <span class="gfwsc1udccb"> Other recipients: </span> <span class="gfwsc1udbcb"> </span> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> <span class="gfwsc1udmeb">The Mannlicher Carcano clip issue The article, written by Charles H.Yust,Jr. (Some Interesting Clips) appeared in the June 1960 issue of American Rifleman. On P.47, a photo and description of the clip operation appears. As follows: ITALY- Clip for Mo</span> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">The Mannlicher Carcano clip issue</span></b></pre> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">The article, written by Charles H.Yust,Jr. (Some Interesting Clips)<br> appeared in the June 1960 issue of American Rifleman. On P.47, a photo<br> and description of the clip operation appears. As follows:</span></b></p> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> ITALY- Clip for Model 1891 6.5 mm. Mannlicher Carcano<br> rifle and carbine employing Mannlicher-type magazine. Holds 6<br> cartridges. Made of brass and tinned, blued.Parkerized and cadmium -<br> plated steel, clip is held in magazine until last round is used, and<br> then PUSHED OUT BOTTOM of magazine when new clip is forced in from<br> top. Clip was also used with Vetterli rifles and carbines altered<br> during World War 1 to 6.5 mm Mannlicher-type magazine. In 1938, when<br> Italy increased caliber of rifle and carbine to 7.35 mm.,same magazine<br> and clip were retained.</span></b></p> <p><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"><b> The original factory filled clip (SMI) should not fall out<br> when last round is chambered as reported. However, numerous clips were<br> made to accommodate surplus ammo when an original Italian clip was not<br> available. Some were even homemade. The Dallas clip was in the weapon<br> when found. It was empty and a round was found in the chamber. The<br> clip did not fall out. It was an original Italian clip which had been<br> emptied at some point and refilled with the Western ammo.<font color="#FF0000"> Probably<br> because, by 1963, there were reports of misfires with the Italian<br> ammo. If you are on a mission to kill the most powerful man in the<br> world, I think it wise to use more reliable ammo.</font></b></span></p> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> ------------------------------<br> There are various photographs of one of the police detectives carrying<br> the rifle out the front door of the book building. From several<br> views, one can see an empty clip working its way down out of the clip<br> exit. After firing, it was gravity that made it drop out. Sometimes<br> It does, sometimes it does not. In fact, opne of the foremost<br> collectors of military rifle clips (named Uust, I think) stated in the<br> American rifleman that the empty Mannlicher-Carcano clip did not come<br> out until a fresh<br> loaded clip was introduced into the magazine from the top.</span></b></p> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> It has been my experience, however, that this is only sometimes<br> the case. Sometimes they drop out on their own; sometimes they do<br> not.</span></b></p> <p><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"><b> As has been pointed out by many diligent researchers, the ''clip<br> issue'' is a ''non-issue.''<br> John in VA<br> ---------------<br> P.S. "The rifle (CE 139)was test-fired by all panel members using 6.5<br> millimeter caliber ammunition of Western cartridge Co. manufacture.<br> Two bullets were test-fired into a horizontal water recovery tank.<br> Further tests were conducted by loading four cartridges into the CE<br> 375 cartridge clip and inserting it into the magazine of the rifle.<br> The cartridges were worked through the rifle's mechanism and ejected<br> without being fired. WHEN THE LAST CARTRIDGE WAS CHAMBERED, THE<br> CARTRIDGE CLIP REMAINED IN THE MAGAZINE INSTEAD OF FALLING OUT<font color="#FF0000"> AS IT<br> WAS DESIGNED TO DO."</font></b></span></p> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> Even those testing the rifle expected the clip to fall out since,<br> by the time of testing , the word was out that the clip was supposed<br> to fall out of the magazine after the last round was chambered.</span></b></p> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> This is the HSCA Vol. II, pg 365 HSCA Report of the Firearms<br> Panel From "Findings and Conclusions of the Firearms Panel<br> Concerning the Kennedy Assassination"</span></b></p> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> Kennedy Shooting Evidence examined<br> (Page 365)<br> -------------------------<br> The clip usually falls out, but in some rifles does not.<br> -- Anthony Marsh<br> ------------------------------<wbr>--------------<br> More on the Carcano:<br> Let us go through the steps required to use your rifle. Firstly the<br> ammunition you have available is either Norma 6.5 Carcano or you have<br> skillfully shortened some 6.5 M-S (Mannlicher-Schoenauer) cases 2mm so<br> they are identical to the factory Norma stuff. Fill your charger/clip<br> (NOT stripper clip, please) with six cartridges. Lift and draw the<br> bolt fully to the rear. You will see the gaping opening of the<br> magazine well looking up at you. Insert your clip into the opening<br> downward until it locks into place. Push the bolt forward and turn it<br> down. This will chamber a cartridge and the firearm is ready to fire.<br> Your rifle may have a long trigger pull <font color="#FF0000">but it will probably be a two<br> stage trigger, most European military rifles have that. It means that<br> when you squeeze your trigger it will reach a point where there is<br> resistance to the pressure. That is you second stage. Squeezing a<br> little more will fire the rifle. The rifle fires! Recoil is minimal.</font><br> You can smell the burning powder and life is good. Lift your bolt<br> handle and pull it gently/slowly to the rear. Your fired cartridge<br> case will emerge from the chamber and you pluck it out of the action<br> before it gets lost. Now is the time to have a look at it and see if<br> there is anything to be concerned about. Repeat the above procedures<br> and fire all six cartridges in your clip/charger. When the last<br> cartridge is chambered your clip will emerge, and MIGHT even drop, out<br> of the magazine. You are ready to reload.</b></span></p> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">The clips come in brass, blue steel and a parkerized grey finish. They<br> will fit all versions of the Carcano. They will also fit the Scotti<br> and Armaguerra semi-automatic rifles which Italy made all too few of.<br> That’s for another story.</span></b></p> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">For a brief period in the thirties Italy considered going to a 7.35 mm<br> cartridge, and made some carbines in that calibre. If you find this<br> stuff clipped they will also function in the 6.5 mm as their case<br> bodies are the same diameter. The clips/chargers can be inserted in<br> the magazine from either end.</span></b></p> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">Of course they can be used over and over, and, remember without the<br> clips/chargers you have a single shot rifle!</span></b></p> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">Some Carcanos were converted to 8 x 57 mm Mauser under German<br> supervision at the end of the war. These are definitely ‘no firing’<br> statement rifles for the reasons mentioned earlier.</span></b></p> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">I don’t like to fire them for the same reason I don’t like root-canal<br> work. They are just plain awful noise and recoil-wise with the full<br> military loads. No fun here!</span></b></p> <p><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"><b>You are advised to play with these using mild cast bullet loads. They<br> can be made to shoot very well with these projectiles and you don’t<br> come away from the bench a gibbering shell-shocked shooter. These<br> rifles also used a Carcano type clip/charger, but five shot only as<br> the body diameter of the eight mil is larger than the 6.5/7.35<br> cartridges.</b><font color="#FF0000"> <b>Good luck finding the clips. I believe there are some in<br> Italy, but I have only seen photos of them.</b></font></span></p> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> <a target="_blank" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fwww.surplusrifle.com%2Fshooting%2Fmannlichercarcano%2Findex.asp\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGefZ7a3soNW9fs_cZoNQ4Uc49ogQ';return true;" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; text-underline: single" href="http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting/mannlichercarcano/index.asp"> http://www.surplusrifle.com/<wbr>shooting/mannlichercarcano/<wbr>index.asp</a></span></b></p> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> Show trimmed content </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; 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font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <table class="MsoNormalTable" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" id="table6"> <tr> <td valign="top" style="padding:0in 0in 0in 0in"> <p class="MsoNormal"><b> <span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Arial"><!--[if gte vml 1]><v:shape id="_x0000_s1060" type="#_x0000_t75" alt="" style='width:.75pt;height:.75pt'> <v:imagedata src="" o:href="https://groups.google.com/forum/clear.cache.gif"/> </v:shape><![endif]--></span></b></td> <td valign="top" style="padding:0in 0in 0in 0in"> <p class="MsoNormal"><span class="gfwsc1udpnb"><b> <span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:#222222">Walt</span></b></span><b><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family: Arial"> </span></b></td> <td valign="top" style="padding:0in 0in 0in 0in"> <p class="MsoNormal" align="right" style="text-align:right"><b> <span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Arial"><!--[if gte vml 1]><v:shape id="_x0000_s1059" type="#_x0000_t75" alt="" style='width:.75pt;height:.75pt'> <v:imagedata src="" o:href="https://groups.google.com/forum/clear.cache.gif"/> </v:shape><![endif]--></span></b></p> <p class="MsoNormal" align="right" style="text-align:right"> <span class="gfwsc1udldbgfwsc1udldc"><b> <span title="Monday, July 26, 2010 4:24:29 PM UTC-4" role="menu">7/26/10</span></b></span><b><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family: Arial"> </span></b></td> </tr> </table> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> <span class="gfwsc1udccb"> Other recipients: </span> <span class="gfwsc1udbcb"> </span> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> <span class="gfwsc1udmeb">The Mannlicher Carcano CANNOT be used as a rifle unless there is a clip available and used to load the cartridge into the chamber. IT CANNOT BE USED AS A SINGLE SHOT RIFLE!!! The clip was DESIGNED to FALL OUT of the bottom of the rifle when the last</span> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">- show quoted text -</span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">On Jul 26, 10:13 am, Raymond <Bluerhy...@aol.com> wrote: > The Mannlicher Carcano clip issue > > The article, written by Charles H.Yust,Jr. (Some Interesting Clips) > appeared in the June 1960 issue of American Rifleman. On P.47, a photo > and description of the clip operation appears. As follows: > > ITALY- Clip for Model 1891 6.5 mm. Mannlicher Carcano > rifle and carbine employing Mannlicher-type magazine. Holds 6 > cartridges. Made of brass and tinned, blued.Parkerized and cadmium - > plated steel, clip is held in magazine until last round is used, and > then PUSHED OUT BOTTOM of magazine when new clip is forced in from > top. Clip was also used with Vetterli rifles and carbines altered > during World War 1 to 6.5 mm Mannlicher-type magazine. In 1938, when > Italy increased caliber of rifle and carbine to 7.35 mm.,same magazine > and clip were retained. > > The original factory filled clip (SMI) should not fall out > when last round is chambered as reported. However, numerous clips were > made to accommodate surplus ammo when an original Italian clip was not > available. Some were even homemade. The Dallas clip was in the weapon > when found. It was empty and a round was found in the chamber. The > clip did not fall out. It was an original Italian clip which had been > emptied at some point and refilled with the Western ammo. Probably > because, by 1963, there were reports of misfires with the Italian > ammo. If you are on a mission to kill the most powerful man in the > world, I think it wise to use more reliable ammo. > > ------------------------------ > There are various photographs of one of the police detectives carrying > the rifle out the front door of the book building. From several > views, one can see an empty clip working its way down out of the clip > exit. After firing, it was gravity that made it drop out. Sometimes > It does, sometimes it does not. In fact, opne of the foremost > collectors of military rifle clips (named Uust, I think) stated in the > American rifleman that the empty Mannlicher-Carcano clip did not come > out until a fresh > loaded clip was introduced into the magazine from the top. > > It has been my experience, however, that this is only sometimes > the case. Sometimes they drop out on their own; sometimes they do > not. > > As has been pointed out by many diligent researchers, the ''clip > issue'' is a ''non-issue.'' > John in VA > --------------- > P.S. "The rifle (CE 139)was test-fired by all panel members using 6.5 > millimeter caliber ammunition of Western cartridge Co. manufacture. > Two bullets were test-fired into a horizontal water recovery tank. > Further tests were conducted by loading four cartridges into the CE > 375 cartridge clip and inserting it into the magazine of the rifle. > The cartridges were worked through the rifle's mechanism and ejected > without being fired. WHEN THE LAST CARTRIDGE WAS CHAMBERED, THE > CARTRIDGE CLIP REMAINED IN THE MAGAZINE INSTEAD OF FALLING OUT AS IT > WAS DESIGNED TO DO." > > Even those testing the rifle expected the clip to fall out since, > by the time of testing , the word was out that the clip was supposed > to fall out of the magazine after the last round was chambered. > > This is the HSCA Vol. II, pg 365 HSCA Report of the Firearms > Panel From "Findings and Conclusions of the Firearms Panel > Concerning the Kennedy Assassination" > > Kennedy Shooting Evidence examined > (Page 365) > ------------------------- > The clip usually falls out, but in some rifles does not. > -- Anthony Marsh > ------------------------------<wbr>-------------- > More on the Carcano: > Let us go through the steps required to use your rifle. Firstly the > ammunition you have available is either Norma 6.5 Carcano or you have > skillfully shortened some 6.5 M-S (Mannlicher-Schoenauer) cases 2mm so > they are identical to the factory Norma stuff. Fill your charger/clip > (NOT stripper clip, please) with six cartridges. Lift and draw the > bolt fully to the rear. You will see the gaping opening of the > magazine well looking up at you. Insert your clip into the opening > downward until it locks into place. Push the bolt forward and turn it > down. This will chamber a cartridge and the firearm is ready to fire. > Your rifle may have a long trigger pull but it will probably be a two > stage trigger, most European military rifles have that. It means that > when you squeeze your trigger it will reach a point where there is > resistance to the pressure. That is you second stage. Squeezing a > little more will fire the rifle. The rifle fires! Recoil is minimal. > You can smell the burning powder and life is good. Lift your bolt > handle and pull it gently/slowly to the rear. Your fired cartridge > case will emerge from the chamber and you pluck it out of the action > before it gets lost. Now is the time to have a look at it and see if > there is anything to be concerned about. Repeat the above procedures > and fire all six cartridges in your clip/charger. When the last > cartridge is chambered your clip will emerge, and MIGHT even drop, out > of the magazine. You are ready to reload. > > The clips come in brass, blue steel and a parkerized grey finish. They > will fit all versions of the Carcano. They will also fit the Scotti > and Armaguerra semi-automatic rifles which Italy made all too few of. > That’s for another story. > > For a brief period in the thirties Italy considered going to a 7.35 mm > cartridge, and made some carbines in that calibre. If you find this > stuff clipped they will also function in the 6.5 mm as their case > bodies are the same diameter. The clips/chargers can be inserted in > the magazine from either end. > > Of course they can be used over and over, and, remember without the > clips/chargers you have a single shot rifle!</span></b></pre> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">The Mannlicher Carcano CANNOT be used as a rifle unless there is a<br> clip available and used to load the cartridge into the chamber. IT<br> CANNOT BE USED AS A SINGLE SHOT RIFLE!!!</span></b></p> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">The clip was DESIGNED to FALL OUT of the bottom of the rifle when the<br> last round is stripped from the clip by the forward stroke of the bolt<br> when chambering that last cartridge. When that last cartridge is<br> stripped from the clip there is NOTHING to hold the clip in the rifle<br> and it drops out. Under battlefield conditions when the ejection port<br> may get dirt or mud in it, which would prevent the light weight clip<br> from dropping out, the empty clip can then easily be pushed out of the<br> bottom of the rifle by inserting a fresh full clip of six<br> cartridges.</span></b></p> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">The FACT that the clip was in the rifle when it was found BURIED and<br> HIDDEN beneath boxes of books is a rock solid indicator that the rifle<br> was prepared as a "throw down" gun BEFORE the shooting. It was<br> prepared as a throw down gun and hidden beneath those boxes of books<br> BEFORE the shooting by someone who wasn't totally famliar with the<br> rifle. He apparently did not know that the rifle CANNOT be loaded as a<br> single shot rifle, and attempted to load the live round into the<br> chamber by hand, and the close the bolt, only to jamb the bolt in the<br> manner it is seen in the photos of the rifle being lifted from the<br> place he had hid it.</span></b></p> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">><br> > Some Carcanos were converted to 8 x 57 mm Mauser under German<br> > supervision at the end of the war. These are definitely ‘no firing’<br> > statement rifles for the reasons mentioned earlier.<br> ><br> > I don’t like to fire them for the same reason I don’t like root-canal<br> > work. They are just plain awful noise and recoil-wise with the full<br> > military loads. No fun here!<br> ><br> > You are advised to play with these using mild cast bullet loads. They<br> > can be made to shoot very well with these projectiles and you don’t<br> > come away from the bench a gibbering shell-shocked shooter. These<br> > rifles also used a Carcano type clip/charger, but five shot only as<br> > the body diameter of the eight mil is larger than the 6.5/7.35<br> > cartridges. Good luck finding the clips. I believe there are some in<br> > Italy, but I have only seen photos of them.<br> ><br> > <a target="_blank" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fwww.surplusrifle.com%2Fshooting%2Fmannlichercarcano%2Findex.asp\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGefZ7a3soNW9fs_cZoNQ4Uc49ogQ';return true;" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; text-underline: single" href="http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting/mannlichercarcano/index.asp"> http://www.surplusrifle.com/<wbr>shooting/mannlichercarcano/<wbr>index.asp</a></span></b></p> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> Show trimmed content </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; 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font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <table class="MsoNormalTable" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" id="table7"> <tr> <td valign="top" style="padding:0in 0in 0in 0in"> <p class="MsoNormal"><b> <span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Arial"><!--[if gte vml 1]><v:shape id="_x0000_s1058" type="#_x0000_t75" alt="" style='width:.75pt;height:.75pt'> <v:imagedata src="" o:href="https://groups.google.com/forum/clear.cache.gif"/> </v:shape><![endif]--></span></b></td> <td valign="top" style="padding:0in 0in 0in 0in"> <p class="MsoNormal"><span class="gfwsc1udpnb"><b> <span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:#222222">Raymond</span></b></span><b><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family: Arial"> </span></b></td> <td valign="top" style="padding:0in 0in 0in 0in"> <p class="MsoNormal" align="right" style="text-align:right"><b> <span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Arial"><!--[if gte vml 1]><v:shape id="_x0000_s1057" type="#_x0000_t75" alt="" style='width:.75pt;height:.75pt'> <v:imagedata src="" o:href="https://groups.google.com/forum/clear.cache.gif"/> </v:shape><![endif]--></span></b></p> <p class="MsoNormal" align="right" style="text-align:right"> <span class="gfwsc1udldbgfwsc1udldc"><b> <span title="Monday, July 26, 2010 8:06:01 PM UTC-4" role="menu">7/26/10</span></b></span><b><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family: Arial"> </span></b></td> </tr> </table> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> <span class="gfwsc1udccb"> Other recipients: </span> <span class="gfwsc1udbcb"> </span> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> <span class="gfwsc1udmeb">CBS News, which claimed to "duplicate the conditions of the actual assassination" in its filmed rifle test in 1967: The cartridge clip was removed from CE-139 by Lieutenant Day of the Dallas Police Department on November 22, 1963 at the crime laborat</span> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">- show quoted text -</span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">On Jul 26, 4:24 pm, Walt <papakochenb...@evertek.net> wrote: > On Jul 26, 10:13 am, Raymond <Bluerhy...@aol.com> wrote: > > > > > > > The Mannlicher Carcano clip issue > > > The article, written by Charles H.Yust,Jr. (Some Interesting Clips) > > appeared in the June 1960 issue of American Rifleman. On P.47, a photo > > and description of the clip operation appears. As follows: > > > ITALY- Clip for Model 1891 6.5 mm. Mannlicher Carcano > > rifle and carbine employing Mannlicher-type magazine. Holds 6 > > cartridges. Made of brass and tinned, blued.Parkerized and cadmium - > > plated steel, clip is held in magazine until last round is used, and > > then PUSHED OUT BOTTOM of magazine when new clip is forced in from > > top. Clip was also used with Vetterli rifles and carbines altered > > during World War 1 to 6.5 mm Mannlicher-type magazine. In 1938, when > > Italy increased caliber of rifle and carbine to 7.35 mm.,same magazine > > and clip were retained. > > > The original factory filled clip (SMI) should not fall out > > when last round is chambered as reported. However, numerous clips were > > made to accommodate surplus ammo when an original Italian clip was not > > available. Some were even homemade. The Dallas clip was in the weapon > > when found. It was empty and a round was found in the chamber. The > > clip did not fall out. It was an original Italian clip which had been > > emptied at some point and refilled with the Western ammo. Probably > > because, by 1963, there were reports of misfires with the Italian > > ammo. If you are on a mission to kill the most powerful man in the > > world, I think it wise to use more reliable ammo. > > > ------------------------------ > > There are various photographs of one of the police detectives carrying > > the rifle out the front door of the book building. From several > > views, one can see an empty clip working its way down out of the clip > > exit. After firing, it was gravity that made it drop out. Sometimes > > It does, sometimes it does not. In fact, opne of the foremost > > collectors of military rifle clips (named Uust, I think) stated in the > > American rifleman that the empty Mannlicher-Carcano clip did not come > > out until a fresh > > loaded clip was introduced into the magazine from the top. > > > It has been my experience, however, that this is only sometimes > > the case. Sometimes they drop out on their own; sometimes they do > > not. > > > As has been pointed out by many diligent researchers, the ''clip > > issue'' is a ''non-issue.'' > > John in VA > > --------------- > > P.S. "The rifle (CE 139)was test-fired by all panel members using 6.5 > > millimeter caliber ammunition of Western cartridge Co. manufacture. > > Two bullets were test-fired into a horizontal water recovery tank. > > Further tests were conducted by loading four cartridges into the CE > > 375 cartridge clip and inserting it into the magazine of the rifle. > > The cartridges were worked through the rifle's mechanism and ejected > > without being fired. WHEN THE LAST CARTRIDGE WAS CHAMBERED, THE > > CARTRIDGE CLIP REMAINED IN THE MAGAZINE INSTEAD OF FALLING OUT AS IT > > WAS DESIGNED TO DO." > > > Even those testing the rifle expected the clip to fall out since, > > by the time of testing , the word was out that the clip was supposed > > to fall out of the magazine after the last round was chambered. > > > This is the HSCA Vol. II, pg 365 HSCA Report of the Firearms > > Panel From "Findings and Conclusions of the Firearms Panel > > Concerning the Kennedy Assassination" > > > Kennedy Shooting Evidence examined > > (Page 365) > > ------------------------- > > The clip usually falls out, but in some rifles does not. > > -- Anthony Marsh > > ------------------------------<wbr>-------------- > > More on the Carcano: > > Let us go through the steps required to use your rifle. Firstly the > > ammunition you have available is either Norma 6.5 Carcano or you have > > skillfully shortened some 6.5 M-S (Mannlicher-Schoenauer) cases 2mm so > > they are identical to the factory Norma stuff. Fill your charger/clip > > (NOT stripper clip, please) with six cartridges. Lift and draw the > > bolt fully to the rear. You will see the gaping opening of the > > magazine well looking up at you. Insert your clip into the opening > > downward until it locks into place. Push the bolt forward and turn it > > down. This will chamber a cartridge and the firearm is ready to fire. > > Your rifle may have a long trigger pull but it will probably be a two > > stage trigger, most European military rifles have that. It means that > > when you squeeze your trigger it will reach a point where there is > > resistance to the pressure. That is you second stage. Squeezing a > > little more will fire the rifle. The rifle fires! Recoil is minimal. > > You can smell the burning powder and life is good. Lift your bolt > > handle and pull it gently/slowly to the rear. Your fired cartridge > > case will emerge from the chamber and you pluck it out of the action > > before it gets lost. Now is the time to have a look at it and see if > > there is anything to be concerned about. Repeat the above procedures > > and fire all six cartridges in your clip/charger. When the last > > cartridge is chambered your clip will emerge, and MIGHT even drop, out > > of the magazine. You are ready to reload. > > > The clips come in brass, blue steel and a parkerized grey finish. They > > will fit all versions of the Carcano. They will also fit the Scotti > > and Armaguerra semi-automatic rifles which Italy made all too few of. > > That’s for another story. > > > For a brief period in the thirties Italy considered going to a 7.35 mm > > cartridge, and made some carbines in that calibre. If you find this > > stuff clipped they will also function in the 6.5 mm as their case > > bodies are the same diameter. The clips/chargers can be inserted in > > the magazine from either end. > > > Of course they can be used over and over, and, remember without the > > clips/chargers you have a single shot rifle! > > The Mannlicher Carcano CANNOT be used as a rifle unless there is a > clip available and used to load the cartridge into the chamber. IT > CANNOT BE USED AS A SINGLE SHOT RIFLE!!!</span></b></pre> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"><br> CBS News, which claimed to "duplicate the conditions of the actual<br> assassination" in its filmed rifle test in 1967:</span></b></p> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">The cartridge clip was removed from CE-139 by Lieutenant Day of the<br> Dallas Police Department on November 22, 1963 at the crime laboratory<br> for the police department. Shouldn't a clip automatically fall out<br> once the last cartridge has fed into the chamber?</span></b></p> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">Mr. Lutz. This rifle is designed to incorporate that feature so that<br> the last cartridge is stripped out of the clip, then that allows the<br> clip itself to fall or to drop from the opening that you see in the<br> bottom of the box magazine. However, in many cases, and in this<br> particular case, where we functioned the rifle, fed cartridges through<br> it, we found this clip to stay in the rifle after the last round had<br> been stripped and fed into the chamber. Because the lips or the edges<br> of the clip many times will open up, they will spring against the<br> walls on the inside of the box magazine and it will hang up in that<br> areaa [sic], and even though it is supposed to drop out, many times it<br> will hang up in the box area.11</span></b></p> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">That explanation seems reasonable enough. BUT IT IS NOT. It is true<br> that the clip must be deformed to have any chance of getting as stuck<br> as this one. But once bent, it stays bent. Commission Exhibits (CEs)<br> 574 and 575 are photographs of the alleged clip in its normal, unbent<br> condition. And five years after the HSCA reported the clip deformed,<br> Life magazine photographer Michael O'Neill photographed it in normal<br> condition for Life's November 1983 issue.12</span></b></p> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> According to reporter Dan Rather, "Eleven volunteer marksmen took<br> turns firing clips of three bullets each at the moving target." They<br> fired a total of thirty-seven three-round series, seventeen of which<br> resulted in unfired bullets due to "trouble with the rifle." Clip<br> problems or not, all data from those seventeen troubled series was<br> disregarded by CBS analysts. It was the other series of shots,<br> however, with properly emptied and ejected clips, deemed worthy of<br> analysis by CBS, that should have been disqualified. In the CBS film,<br> clips can be seen flying out of the gun so fast as to be a blur.14 If<br> a test clip is not bent, or ejects, or moves at all, Oswald's alleged<br> feat is not duplicated, invalidating the test. The HSCA firearms panel<br> seemed not to be interested in this phenomenon, since it did not test<br> the clip under firing conditions. Congressman Edgar learned about the<br> defect from Mr. Lutz when he asked for details about their firing<br> test:</span></b></p> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">Mr. Lutz. This was a single cartridge being inserted into the chamber<br> and firing into a cotton waste recovery box...backing away from the<br> box, a foot or two, and pointing the muzzle into the box and then<br> firing into it, in order to recover the projectile.<br> ******Mr. Edgar. But you weren't firing with clip -- using the clip,<br> were you?</span></b></p> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> ******Mr. Lutz. No sir; I did not.</span></b></p> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">**** Mr. Edgar. Did anyone on the panel fire with the clip in?</span></b></p> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">***** Mr. Lutz. I do not believe so; no, sir.</span></b></p> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">Mr. Edgar. What was the reason for that?</span></b></p> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">Mr. Lutz. There were no particular markings that we were able to<br> identify as having come from the clip, nor were we checking for time<br> firing or sequential firing in any way in that respect.15</span></b></p> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">Under the heading "Findings and Conclusions of the Firearms Panel<br> Concerning the Kennedy Assassination," we learn that, "Two bullets</span></b></p> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> were test-fired into a horizontal water recovery tank. Further tests</span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">were conducted by loading four cartridges into the CE 375 [sic]</span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> cartridge clip and inserting it into the magazine of the rifle. The cartridges were worked through the rifle's mechanism and ejected</span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">without being fired. When the last cartridge was chambered, the cartridge clip remained in the magazine instead of falling out as it is designed to do."16 Given Mr. Lutz's "the clip many times will open up" statement, this result demands further explanation.</span></b></pre> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">"Many times will" also means "many times won't." Metal expands when<br> heated and can alter its shape. But during the HSCA tests of the<br> loading mechanism, the rifle should have been cool. In addition, CE<br> 541 (3), a photograph of the clip stuck in the magazine reproduced on<br> page 83 of the Warren Report, shows it in a cool rifle. Surely the<br> rifle had not been fired for some time before that photography<br> session. Is Lutz suggesting that the clip's sides spring out when cool<br> and then return to a normal shape in the heat of firing? If such a<br> violation of the laws of physics occurs with this rifle and clip, how<br> then could the rifle have "contained a clip" when found?</span></b></p> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">---- PHYSICAL EVIDENCE / The Rifle</span></b></p> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">- show quoted text -</span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> > > The clip was DESIGNED to FALL OUT of the bottom of the rifle when the > last round is stripped from the clip by the forward stroke of the bolt > when chambering that last cartridge. When that last cartridge is > stripped from the clip there is NOTHING to hold the clip in the rifle > and it drops out. Under battlefield conditions when the ejection port > may get dirt or mud in it, which would prevent the light weight clip > from dropping out, the empty clip can then easily be pushed out of the > bottom of the rifle by inserting a fresh full clip of six > cartridges. > > The FACT that the clip was in the rifle when it was found BURIED and > HIDDEN beneath boxes of books is a rock solid indicator that the rifle > was prepared as a "throw down" gun BEFORE the shooting. It was > prepared as a throw down gun and hidden beneath those boxes of books > BEFORE the shooting by someone who wasn't totally famliar with the > rifle. He apparently did not know that the rifle CANNOT be loaded as a > single shot rifle, and attempted to load the live round into the > chamber by hand, and the close the bolt, only to jamb the bolt in the > manner it is seen in the photos of the rifle being lifted from the > place he had hid it. > > > > > > > Some Carcanos were converted to 8 x 57 mm Mauser under German > > supervision at the end of the war. These are definitely ‘no firing’ > > statement rifles for the reasons mentioned earlier. > > > I don’t like to fire them for the same reason I don’t like root-canal > > work. They are just plain awful noise and recoil-wise with the full > > military loads. No fun here! > > > You are advised to play with these using mild cast bullet loads. They > > can be made to shoot very well with these projectiles and you don’t > > come away from the bench a gibbering shell-shocked shooter. These > > rifles also used a Carcano type clip/charger, but five shot only as > > the body diameter of the eight mil is larger than the 6.5/7.35 > > cartridges. Good luck finding the clips. I believe there are some in > > Italy, but I have only seen photos of them. ></span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">> ><a target="_blank" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fwww.surplusrifle.com%2Fshooting%2Fmannlichercarcano%2Findex.asp-\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNHKNC5RzwEu2fPm-vM0ci8Q77aNlQ';return true;" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; text-underline: single" href="http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting/mannlichercarcano/index.asp-">http://www.surplusrifle.com/<wbr>shooting/mannlichercarcano/<wbr>index.asp-</a> Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text -</span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; 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font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <table class="MsoNormalTable" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" id="table8"> <tr> <td valign="top" style="padding:0in 0in 0in 0in"> <p class="MsoNormal"><b> <span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Arial"><!--[if gte vml 1]><v:shape id="_x0000_s1056" type="#_x0000_t75" alt="" style='width:.75pt;height:.75pt'> <v:imagedata src="" o:href="https://groups.google.com/forum/clear.cache.gif"/> </v:shape><![endif]--></span></b></td> <td valign="top" style="padding:0in 0in 0in 0in"> <p class="MsoNormal"><span class="gfwsc1udpnb"><b> <span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:#222222">Walt</span></b></span><b><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family: Arial"> </span></b></td> <td valign="top" style="padding:0in 0in 0in 0in"> <p class="MsoNormal" align="right" style="text-align:right"><b> <span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Arial"><!--[if gte vml 1]><v:shape id="_x0000_s1055" type="#_x0000_t75" alt="" style='width:.75pt;height:.75pt'> <v:imagedata src="" o:href="https://groups.google.com/forum/clear.cache.gif"/> </v:shape><![endif]--></span></b></p> <p class="MsoNormal" align="right" style="text-align:right"> <span class="gfwsc1udldbgfwsc1udldc"><b> <span title="Monday, July 26, 2010 10:37:51 PM UTC-4" role="menu"> 7/26/10</span></b></span><b><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family: Arial"> </span></b></td> </tr> </table> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> <span class="gfwsc1udccb"> Other recipients: </span> <span class="gfwsc1udbcb"> </span> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> <span class="gfwsc1udmeb">Raymond you can believe whoever and whatever you choose to believe.....But keep in mind that those who claim the clip does not fall out of the rifle when the last cartridge is chambered have some ulterior motive telling that lie. I guarantee you th</span> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">- show quoted text -</span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">On Jul 26, 7:06 pm, Raymond <Bluerhy...@aol.com> wrote: > On Jul 26, 4:24 pm, Walt <papakochenb...@evertek.net> wrote: > > > > > > > On Jul 26, 10:13 am, Raymond <Bluerhy...@aol.com> wrote: > > > > The Mannlicher Carcano clip issue > > > > The article, written by Charles H.Yust,Jr. (Some Interesting Clips) > > > appeared in the June 1960 issue of American Rifleman. On P.47, a photo > > > and description of the clip operation appears. As follows: > > > > ITALY- Clip for Model 1891 6.5 mm. Mannlicher Carcano > > > rifle and carbine employing Mannlicher-type magazine. Holds 6 > > > cartridges. Made of brass and tinned, blued.Parkerized and cadmium - > > > plated steel, clip is held in magazine until last round is used, and > > > then PUSHED OUT BOTTOM of magazine when new clip is forced in from > > > top. Clip was also used with Vetterli rifles and carbines altered > > > during World War 1 to 6.5 mm Mannlicher-type magazine. In 1938, when > > > Italy increased caliber of rifle and carbine to 7.35 mm.,same magazine > > > and clip were retained. > > > > The original factory filled clip (SMI) should not fall out > > > when last round is chambered as reported. However, numerous clips were > > > made to accommodate surplus ammo when an original Italian clip was not > > > available. Some were even homemade. The Dallas clip was in the weapon > > > when found. It was empty and a round was found in the chamber. The > > > clip did not fall out. It was an original Italian clip which had been > > > emptied at some point and refilled with the Western ammo. Probably > > > because, by 1963, there were reports of misfires with the Italian > > > ammo. If you are on a mission to kill the most powerful man in the > > > world, I think it wise to use more reliable ammo. > > > > ------------------------------ > > > There are various photographs of one of the police detectives carrying > > > the rifle out the front door of the book building. From several > > > views, one can see an empty clip working its way down out of the clip > > > exit. After firing, it was gravity that made it drop out. Sometimes > > > It does, sometimes it does not. In fact, opne of the foremost > > > collectors of military rifle clips (named Uust, I think) stated in the > > > American rifleman that the empty Mannlicher-Carcano clip did not come > > > out until a fresh > > > loaded clip was introduced into the magazine from the top. > > > > It has been my experience, however, that this is only sometimes > > > the case. Sometimes they drop out on their own; sometimes they do > > > not. > > > > As has been pointed out by many diligent researchers, the ''clip > > > issue'' is a ''non-issue.'' > > > John in VA > > > --------------- > > > P.S. "The rifle (CE 139)was test-fired by all panel members using 6.5 > > > millimeter caliber ammunition of Western cartridge Co. manufacture. > > > Two bullets were test-fired into a horizontal water recovery tank. > > > Further tests were conducted by loading four cartridges into the CE > > > 375 cartridge clip and inserting it into the magazine of the rifle. > > > The cartridges were worked through the rifle's mechanism and ejected > > > without being fired. WHEN THE LAST CARTRIDGE WAS CHAMBERED, THE > > > CARTRIDGE CLIP REMAINED IN THE MAGAZINE INSTEAD OF FALLING OUT AS IT > > > WAS DESIGNED TO DO." > > > > Even those testing the rifle expected the clip to fall out since, > > > by the time of testing , the word was out that the clip was supposed > > > to fall out of the magazine after the last round was chambered. > > > > This is the HSCA Vol. II, pg 365 HSCA Report of the Firearms > > > Panel From "Findings and Conclusions of the Firearms Panel > > > Concerning the Kennedy Assassination" > > > > Kennedy Shooting Evidence examined > > > (Page 365) > > > ------------------------- > > > The clip usually falls out, but in some rifles does not. > > > -- Anthony Marsh > > > ------------------------------<wbr>-------------- > > > More on the Carcano: > > > Let us go through the steps required to use your rifle. Firstly the > > > ammunition you have available is either Norma 6.5 Carcano or you have > > > skillfully shortened some 6.5 M-S (Mannlicher-Schoenauer) cases 2mm so > > > they are identical to the factory Norma stuff. Fill your charger/clip > > > (NOT stripper clip, please) with six cartridges. Lift and draw the > > > bolt fully to the rear. You will see the gaping opening of the > > > magazine well looking up at you. Insert your clip into the opening > > > downward until it locks into place. Push the bolt forward and turn it > > > down. This will chamber a cartridge and the firearm is ready to fire. > > > Your rifle may have a long trigger pull but it will probably be a two > > > stage trigger, most European military rifles have that. It means that > > > when you squeeze your trigger it will reach a point where there is > > > resistance to the pressure. That is you second stage. Squeezing a > > > little more will fire the rifle. The rifle fires! Recoil is minimal. > > > You can smell the burning powder and life is good. Lift your bolt > > > handle and pull it gently/slowly to the rear. Your fired cartridge > > > case will emerge from the chamber and you pluck it out of the action > > > before it gets lost. Now is the time to have a look at it and see if > > > there is anything to be concerned about. Repeat the above procedures > > > and fire all six cartridges in your clip/charger. When the last > > > cartridge is chambered your clip will emerge, and MIGHT even drop, out > > > of the magazine. You are ready to reload. > > > > The clips come in brass, blue steel and a parkerized grey finish. They > > > will fit all versions of the Carcano. They will also fit the Scotti > > > and Armaguerra semi-automatic rifles which Italy made all too few of. > > > That’s for another story. > > > > For a brief period in the thirties Italy considered going to a 7.35 mm > > > cartridge, and made some carbines in that calibre. If you find this > > > stuff clipped they will also function in the 6.5 mm as their case > > > bodies are the same diameter. The clips/chargers can be inserted in > > > the magazine from either end. > > > > Of course they can be used over and over, and, remember without the > > > clips/chargers you have a single shot rifle! > > > The Mannlicher Carcano CANNOT be used as a rifle unless there is a > > clip available and used to load the cartridge into the chamber. IT > > CANNOT BE USED AS A SINGLE SHOT RIFLE!!! > > CBS News, which claimed to "duplicate the conditions of the actual > assassination" in its filmed rifle test in 1967: > > The cartridge clip was removed from CE-139 by Lieutenant Day of the > Dallas Police Department on November 22, 1963 at the crime laboratory > for the police department. Shouldn't a clip automatically fall out > once the last cartridge has fed into the chamber? > > Mr. Lutz. This rifle is designed to incorporate that feature so that > the last cartridge is stripped out of the clip, then that allows the > clip itself to fall or to drop from the opening that you see in the > bottom of the box magazine. However, in many cases, and in this > particular case, where we functioned the rifle, fed cartridges through > it, we found this clip to stay in the rifle after the last round had > been stripped and fed into the chamber. Because the lips or the edges > of the clip many times will open up, they will spring against the > walls on the inside of the box magazine and it will hang up in that > areaa [sic], and even though it is supposed to drop out, many times it > will hang up in the box area.11 > > That explanation seems reasonable enough. BUT IT IS NOT. It is true > that the clip must be deformed to have any chance of getting as stuck > as this one. But once bent, it stays bent. Commission Exhibits (CEs) > 574 and 575 are photographs of the alleged clip in its normal, unbent > condition. And five years after the HSCA reported the clip deformed, > Life magazine photographer Michael O'Neill photographed it in normal > condition for Life's November 1983 issue.12 > > According to reporter Dan Rather, "Eleven volunteer marksmen took > turns firing clips of three bullets each at the moving target." They > fired a total of thirty-seven three-round series, seventeen of which > resulted in unfired bullets due to "trouble with the rifle." Clip > problems or not, all data from those seventeen troubled series was > disregarded by CBS analysts. It was the other series of shots, > however, with properly emptied and ejected clips, deemed worthy of > analysis by CBS, that should have been disqualified. In the CBS film, > clips can be seen flying out of the gun so fast as to be a blur.14 If > a test clip is not bent, or ejects, or moves at all, Oswald's alleged > feat is not duplicated, invalidating the test. The HSCA firearms panel > seemed not to be interested in this phenomenon, since it did not test > the clip under firing conditions. Congressman Edgar learned about the > defect from Mr. Lutz when he asked for details about their firing > test: > > Mr. Lutz. This was a single cartridge being inserted into the chamber > and firing into a cotton waste recovery box...backing away from the > box, a foot or two, and pointing the muzzle into the box and then > firing into it, in order to recover the projectile. > ******Mr. Edgar. But you weren't firing with clip -- using the clip, > were you? > > ******Mr. Lutz. No sir; I did not. > > **** Mr. Edgar. Did anyone on the panel fire with the clip in? > > ***** Mr. Lutz. I do not believe so; no, sir. > > Mr. Edgar. What was the reason for that? > > Mr. Lutz. There were no particular markings that we were able to > identify as having come from the clip, nor were we checking for time > firing or sequential firing in any way in that respect.15 > > Under the heading "Findings and Conclusions of the Firearms Panel > Concerning the Kennedy Assassination," we learn that, "Two bullets > were test-fired into a horizontal water recovery tank. Further tests > were conducted by loading four cartridges into the CE 375 [sic] > cartridge clip and inserting it into the magazine of the rifle. The</span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">> cartridges were worked through the rifle's mechanism and ...</span></b></pre> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"><br> Raymond you can believe whoever and whatever you choose to<br> believe.....But keep in mind that those who claim the clip does not<br> fall out of the rifle when the last cartridge is chambered have some<br> ulterior motive telling that lie. I guarantee you that the clip DOES<br> fall out of the rifle when the last cartridge is chambered. Since<br> this is a FACT that clip should have been found in the so called<br> "Sniper's Nest" where according to the Warren Commission's THEORY<br> Oswald chambered that last round. ( What a CROCK!!!)</span></b></p> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"><br> ><br> > read more »- Hide quoted text -</span></b></p> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> > > - Show quoted text -</span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> Show trimmed content </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; 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font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <table class="MsoNormalTable" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" id="table9"> <tr> <td valign="top" style="padding:0in 0in 0in 0in"> <p class="MsoNormal"><b> <span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Arial"><!--[if gte vml 1]><v:shape id="_x0000_s1054" type="#_x0000_t75" alt="" style='width:.75pt;height:.75pt'> <v:imagedata src="" o:href="https://groups.google.com/forum/clear.cache.gif"/> </v:shape><![endif]--></span></b></td> <td valign="top" style="padding:0in 0in 0in 0in"> <p class="MsoNormal"><span class="gfwsc1udpnb"><b> <span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:#222222"> robcap...@netscape.com</span></b></span><b><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family: Arial"> </span></b></td> <td valign="top" style="padding:0in 0in 0in 0in"> <p class="MsoNormal" align="right" style="text-align:right"><b> <span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Arial"><!--[if gte vml 1]><v:shape id="_x0000_s1053" type="#_x0000_t75" alt="" style='width:.75pt;height:.75pt'> <v:imagedata src="" o:href="https://groups.google.com/forum/clear.cache.gif"/> </v:shape><![endif]--></span></b></p> <p class="MsoNormal" align="right" style="text-align:right"> <span class="gfwsc1udldbgfwsc1udldc"><b> <span title="Wednesday, July 28, 2010 10:59:08 AM UTC-4" role="menu"> 7/28/10</span></b></span><b><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family: Arial"> </span></b></td> </tr> </table> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> <span class="gfwsc1udccb"> Other recipients: </span> <span class="gfwsc1udbcb"> </span> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> <span class="gfwsc1udmeb">IF you believe this why do you believe a CLIP WAS INSIDE THE RIFLE Walt?? YOU make NO sense at all!</span> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">On Jul 26, 10:37 pm, Walt <papakochenb...@evertek.net> wrote: > On Jul 26, 7:06 pm, Raymond <Bluerhy...@aol.com> wrote:</span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">- show quoted text -</span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">> > CBS News, which claimed to "duplicate the conditions of the actual > > assassination" in its filmed rifle test in 1967: > > > The cartridge clip was removed from CE-139 by Lieutenant Day of the > > Dallas Police Department on November 22, 1963 at the crime laboratory > > for the police department. Shouldn't a clip automatically fall out > > once the last cartridge has fed into the chamber? > > > Mr. Lutz. This rifle is designed to incorporate that feature so that > > the last cartridge is stripped out of the clip, then that allows the > > clip itself to fall or to drop from the opening that you see in the > > bottom of the box magazine. However, in many cases, and in this > > particular case, where we functioned the rifle, fed cartridges through > > it, we found this clip to stay in the rifle after the last round had > > been stripped and fed into the chamber. Because the lips or the edges > > of the clip many times will open up, they will spring against the > > walls on the inside of the box magazine and it will hang up in that > > areaa [sic], and even though it is supposed to drop out, many times it > > will hang up in the box area.11 > > > That explanation seems reasonable enough. BUT IT IS NOT. It is true > > that the clip must be deformed to have any chance of getting as stuck > > as this one. But once bent, it stays bent. Commission Exhibits (CEs) > > 574 and 575 are photographs of the alleged clip in its normal, unbent > > condition. And five years after the HSCA reported the clip deformed, > > Life magazine photographer Michael O'Neill photographed it in normal > > condition for Life's November 1983 issue.12 > > > According to reporter Dan Rather, "Eleven volunteer marksmen took > > turns firing clips of three bullets each at the moving target." They > > fired a total of thirty-seven three-round series, seventeen of which > > resulted in unfired bullets due to "trouble with the rifle." Clip > > problems or not, all data from those seventeen troubled series was > > disregarded by CBS analysts. It was the other series of shots, > > however, with properly emptied and ejected clips, deemed worthy of > > analysis by CBS, that should have been disqualified. In the CBS film, > > clips can be seen flying out of the gun so fast as to be a blur.14 If > > a test clip is not bent, or ejects, or moves at all, Oswald's alleged > > feat is not duplicated, invalidating the test. The HSCA firearms panel > > seemed not to be interested in this phenomenon, since it did not test > > the clip under firing conditions. Congressman Edgar learned about the > > defect from Mr. Lutz when he asked for details about their firing > > test: > > > Mr. Lutz. This was a single cartridge being inserted into the chamber > > and firing into a cotton waste recovery box...backing away from the > > box, a foot or two, and pointing the muzzle into the box and then > > firing into it, in order to recover the projectile. > > ******Mr. Edgar. But you weren't firing with clip -- using the clip, > > were you? > > > ******Mr. Lutz. No sir; I did not. > > > **** Mr. Edgar. Did anyone on the panel fire with the clip in? > > > ***** Mr. Lutz. I do not believe so; no, sir. > > > Mr. Edgar. What was the reason for that? > > > Mr. Lutz. There were no particular markings that we were able to > > identify as having come from the clip, nor were we checking for time > > firing or sequential firing in any way in that respect.15 > > > Under the heading "Findings and Conclusions of the Firearms Panel > > Concerning the Kennedy Assassination," we learn that, "Two bullets > > were test-fired into a horizontal water recovery tank. Further tests > > were conducted by loading four cartridges into the CE 375 [sic] > > cartridge clip and inserting it into the magazine of the rifle. The > > cartridges were worked through the rifle's mechanism and ... > > Raymond you can believe whoever and whatever you choose to > believe.....But keep in mind that those who claim the clip does not > fall out of the rifle when the last cartridge is chambered have some > ulterior motive telling that lie. I guarantee you that the clip DOES > fall out of the rifle when the last cartridge is chambered. Since > this is a FACT that clip should have been found in the so called > "Sniper's Nest" where according to the Warren Commission's THEORY > Oswald chambered that last round. ( What a CROCK!!!)</span></b></pre> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">IF you believe this why do you believe a CLIP WAS INSIDE THE RIFLE<br> Walt?? YOU make NO sense at all!</span></b></p> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> Show trimmed content </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; 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font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <table class="MsoNormalTable" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" id="table10"> <tr> <td valign="top" style="padding:0in 0in 0in 0in"> <p class="MsoNormal"><b> <span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Arial"><!--[if gte vml 1]><v:shape id="_x0000_s1052" type="#_x0000_t75" alt="" style='width:.75pt;height:.75pt'> <v:imagedata src="" o:href="https://groups.google.com/forum/clear.cache.gif"/> </v:shape><![endif]--></span></b></td> <td valign="top" style="padding:0in 0in 0in 0in"> <p class="MsoNormal"><span class="gfwsc1udpnb"><b> <span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:#222222">Walt</span></b></span><b><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family: Arial"> </span></b></td> <td valign="top" style="padding:0in 0in 0in 0in"> <p class="MsoNormal" align="right" style="text-align:right"><b> <span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Arial"><!--[if gte vml 1]><v:shape id="_x0000_s1051" type="#_x0000_t75" alt="" style='width:.75pt;height:.75pt'> <v:imagedata src="" o:href="https://groups.google.com/forum/clear.cache.gif"/> </v:shape><![endif]--></span></b></p> <p class="MsoNormal" align="right" style="text-align:right"> <span class="gfwsc1udldbgfwsc1udldc"><b> <span title="Wednesday, July 28, 2010 11:29:46 PM UTC-4" role="menu"> 7/28/10</span></b></span><b><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family: Arial"> </span></b></td> </tr> </table> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> <span class="gfwsc1udccb"> Other recipients: </span> <span class="gfwsc1udbcb"> </span> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> <span class="gfwsc1udmeb">On Jul 28, 9:59 am, "robcap...@netscape.com" <robcap...@netscape.com> wrote:</span> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">On Jul 28, 9:59 am, "robcap...@netscape.com" <robcap...@netscape.com> wrote:</span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">- show quoted text -</span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> > On Jul 26, 10:37 pm, Walt <papakochenb...@evertek.net> wrote: > > > > > > > On Jul 26, 7:06 pm, Raymond <Bluerhy...@aol.com> wrote: > > > CBS News, which claimed to "duplicate the conditions of the actual > > > assassination" in its filmed rifle test in 1967: > > > > The cartridge clip was removed from CE-139 by Lieutenant Day of the > > > Dallas Police Department on November 22, 1963 at the crime laboratory > > > for the police department. Shouldn't a clip automatically fall out > > > once the last cartridge has fed into the chamber? > > > > Mr. Lutz. This rifle is designed to incorporate that feature so that > > > the last cartridge is stripped out of the clip, then that allows the > > > clip itself to fall or to drop from the opening that you see in the > > > bottom of the box magazine. However, in many cases, and in this > > > particular case, where we functioned the rifle, fed cartridges through > > > it, we found this clip to stay in the rifle after the last round had > > > been stripped and fed into the chamber. Because the lips or the edges > > > of the clip many times will open up, they will spring against the > > > walls on the inside of the box magazine and it will hang up in that > > > areaa [sic], and even though it is supposed to drop out, many times it > > > will hang up in the box area.11 > > > > That explanation seems reasonable enough. BUT IT IS NOT. It is true > > > that the clip must be deformed to have any chance of getting as stuck > > > as this one. But once bent, it stays bent. Commission Exhibits (CEs) > > > 574 and 575 are photographs of the alleged clip in its normal, unbent > > > condition. And five years after the HSCA reported the clip deformed, > > > Life magazine photographer Michael O'Neill photographed it in normal > > > condition for Life's November 1983 issue.12 > > > > According to reporter Dan Rather, "Eleven volunteer marksmen took > > > turns firing clips of three bullets each at the moving target." They > > > fired a total of thirty-seven three-round series, seventeen of which > > > resulted in unfired bullets due to "trouble with the rifle." Clip > > > problems or not, all data from those seventeen troubled series was > > > disregarded by CBS analysts. It was the other series of shots, > > > however, with properly emptied and ejected clips, deemed worthy of > > > analysis by CBS, that should have been disqualified. In the CBS film, > > > clips can be seen flying out of the gun so fast as to be a blur.14 If > > > a test clip is not bent, or ejects, or moves at all, Oswald's alleged > > > feat is not duplicated, invalidating the test. The HSCA firearms panel > > > seemed not to be interested in this phenomenon, since it did not test > > > the clip under firing conditions. Congressman Edgar learned about the > > > defect from Mr. Lutz when he asked for details about their firing > > > test: > > > > Mr. Lutz. This was a single cartridge being inserted into the chamber > > > and firing into a cotton waste recovery box...backing away from the > > > box, a foot or two, and pointing the muzzle into the box and then > > > firing into it, in order to recover the projectile. > > > ******Mr. Edgar. But you weren't firing with clip -- using the clip, > > > were you? > > > > ******Mr. Lutz. No sir; I did not. > > > > **** Mr. Edgar. Did anyone on the panel fire with the clip in? > > > > ***** Mr. Lutz. I do not believe so; no, sir. > > > > Mr. Edgar. What was the reason for that? > > > > Mr. Lutz. There were no particular markings that we were able to > > > identify as having come from the clip, nor were we checking for time > > > firing or sequential firing in any way in that respect.15 > > > > Under the heading "Findings and Conclusions of the Firearms Panel > > > Concerning the Kennedy Assassination," we learn that, "Two bullets > > > were test-fired into a horizontal water recovery tank. Further tests > > > were conducted by loading four cartridges into the CE 375 [sic] > > > cartridge clip and inserting it into the magazine of the rifle. The > > > cartridges were worked through the rifle's mechanism and ... > > > Raymond you can believe whoever and whatever you choose to > > believe.....But keep in mind that those who claim the clip does not > > fall out of the rifle when the last cartridge is chambered have some > > ulterior motive telling that lie. I guarantee you that the clip DOES > > fall out of the rifle when the last cartridge is chambered. Since > > this is a FACT that clip should have been found in the so called > > "Sniper's Nest" where according to the Warren Commission's THEORY > > Oswald chambered that last round. ( What a CROCK!!!) > > IF you believe this why do you believe a CLIP WAS INSIDE THE RIFLE > Walt?? YOU make NO sense at all</span></b></pre> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> THINK!!!.... I said the authorities... THEORIZED.. that Lee Oswald<br> fired that MC from the so called "Sniper's Nest". That THEORY requires<br> that the clip had to have been ejected from the rifle when the final<br> live round in the clip was chambered. They said Oswald had FOUR<br> cartridges, and he fired three of them, and the three spent shells<br> were found in the make believe "Sniper's Nest" IF there were three<br> spent rounds found in the SN then that means the bolt was opened AFTER<br> the third round was fired. The reflex action of closing of the bolt<br> after that third spent shell was ejected would have stripped the last<br> cartridge from the clip and the clip would have fallen on the floor at<br> that time.</span></b></p> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">BUT the clip was NOT on the floor...which means the whole theory is a<br> CROCK!!!.</span></b></p> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">What actually happened is:.... The rifle was prepared as a "throw<br> down" gun BEFORE the shooting. The numbskull who prepared the gun and<br> hid it beneath those boxes of books wasn't very familiar with the<br> rile, and when he attempted to load a single live round into the<br> chambered he jammed the bolt in trying, he then inserted the clip in<br> the magazine and hid the rifle beneath those boxes of books.</span></b></p> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"><br> Hide quoted text -<br> ><br> > - Show quoted text -</span></b></p> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> Show trimmed content </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; 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font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <table class="MsoNormalTable" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" id="table11"> <tr> <td valign="top" style="padding:0in 0in 0in 0in"> <p class="MsoNormal"><b> <span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Arial"><!--[if gte vml 1]><v:shape id="_x0000_s1050" type="#_x0000_t75" alt="" style='width:.75pt;height:.75pt'> <v:imagedata src="" o:href="https://groups.google.com/forum/clear.cache.gif"/> </v:shape><![endif]--></span></b></td> <td valign="top" style="padding:0in 0in 0in 0in"> <p class="MsoNormal"><span class="gfwsc1udpnb"><b> <span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:#222222"> robcap...@netscape.com</span></b></span><b><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family: Arial"> </span></b></td> <td valign="top" style="padding:0in 0in 0in 0in"> <p class="MsoNormal" align="right" style="text-align:right"><b> <span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Arial"><!--[if gte vml 1]><v:shape id="_x0000_s1049" type="#_x0000_t75" alt="" style='width:.75pt;height:.75pt'> <v:imagedata src="" o:href="https://groups.google.com/forum/clear.cache.gif"/> </v:shape><![endif]--></span></b></p> <p class="MsoNormal" align="right" style="text-align:right"> <span class="gfwsc1udldbgfwsc1udldc"><b> <span title="Thursday, July 29, 2010 2:36:07 PM UTC-4" role="menu"> 7/29/10</span></b></span><b><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family: Arial"> </span></b></td> </tr> </table> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> <span class="gfwsc1udccb"> Other recipients: </span> <span class="gfwsc1udbcb"> </span> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> <span class="gfwsc1udmeb">So far so good.</span> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">On Jul 28, 11:29 pm, Walt <papakochenb...@evertek.net> wrote: > On Jul 28, 9:59 am, "robcap...@netscape.com" <robcap...@netscape.com> > wrote:</span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">> > IF you believe this why do you believe a CLIP WAS INSIDE THE RIFLE > > Walt?? YOU make NO sense at all > > THINK!!!.... I said the authorities... THEORIZED.. that Lee Oswald > fired that MC from the so called "Sniper's Nest". That THEORY requires > that the clip had to have been ejected from the rifle when the final > live round in the clip was chambered. </span></b></pre> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">So far so good.</span></b></p> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">> They said Oswald had FOUR > cartridges, and he fired three of them, and the three spent shells > were found in the make believe "Sniper's Nest" </span></b></pre> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">Were they?? Think Walt, think! The OFFICIAL evidence photo shows ONLY<br> two!</span></b></p> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">> IF there were three > spent rounds found in the SN then that means the bolt was opened AFTER > the third round was fired. The reflex action of closing of the bolt > after that third spent shell was ejected would have stripped the last > cartridge from the clip and the clip would have fallen on the floor at > that time.</span></b></pre> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">I agree with this Walt, YOU are the ONE that has argued with me that<br> the CLIP WAS INSIDE THE RIFLE WHEN IT WAS FOUND! So you are<br> contridicted yourself here, but you are right here!</span></b></p> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">> BUT the clip was NOT on the floor...which means the whole theory is a > CROCK!!!.</span></b></pre> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">Perhaps there was NO clip Walt as YOU have said it was a prop gun,<br> remember? Why do you need a clip for a prop gun?</span></b></p> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">> What actually happened is:.... The rifle was prepared as a "throw > down" gun BEFORE the shooting. The numbskull who prepared the gun and > hid it beneath those boxes of books wasn't very familiar with the > rile, and when he attempted to load a single live round into the > chambered he jammed the bolt in trying, he then inserted the clip in > the magazine and hid the rifle beneath those boxes of books.</span></b></pre> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">THERE IS NO EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT THIS THEORY WALT! NONE! There is NO<br> mention of a clip by anyone, there are NO photographs of the clip<br> until they took the rifle out of the TSBD 30 minutes later, and there<br> is NO inventory number for the clip! Sylvia Meagher showed years ago<br> there is NO mention of the clip anywhere in the 26 volumes of<br> evidence.</span></b></p> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">How do you explain this IF it was inside the rifle when they found it?</span></b></p> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> Show trimmed content </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; 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font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <table class="MsoNormalTable" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" id="table12"> <tr> <td valign="top" style="padding:0in 0in 0in 0in"> <p class="MsoNormal"><b> <span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Arial"><!--[if gte vml 1]><v:shape id="_x0000_s1048" type="#_x0000_t75" alt="" style='width:.75pt;height:.75pt'> <v:imagedata src="" o:href="https://groups.google.com/forum/clear.cache.gif"/> </v:shape><![endif]--></span></b></td> <td valign="top" style="padding:0in 0in 0in 0in"> <p class="MsoNormal"><span class="gfwsc1udpnb"><b> <span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:#222222">Raymond</span></b></span><b><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family: Arial"> </span></b></td> <td valign="top" style="padding:0in 0in 0in 0in"> <p class="MsoNormal" align="right" style="text-align:right"><b> <span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Arial"><!--[if gte vml 1]><v:shape id="_x0000_s1047" type="#_x0000_t75" alt="" style='width:.75pt;height:.75pt'> <v:imagedata src="" o:href="https://groups.google.com/forum/clear.cache.gif"/> </v:shape><![endif]--></span></b></p> <p class="MsoNormal" align="right" style="text-align:right"> <span class="gfwsc1udldbgfwsc1udldc"><b> <span title="Thursday, July 29, 2010 4:21:42 PM UTC-4" role="menu"> 7/29/10</span></b></span><b><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family: Arial"> </span></b></td> </tr> </table> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> <span class="gfwsc1udccb"> Other recipients: </span> <span class="gfwsc1udbcb"> </span> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> <span class="gfwsc1udmeb">On Jul 29, 2:36 pm, "robcap...@netscape.com" <robcap...@netscape.com> wrote:</span> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">On Jul 29, 2:36 pm, "robcap...@netscape.com" <robcap...@netscape.com> wrote:</span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">- show quoted text -</span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> > On Jul 28, 11:29 pm, Walt <papakochenb...@evertek.net> wrote: > > > On Jul 28, 9:59 am, "robcap...@netscape.com" <robcap...@netscape.com> > > wrote: > > > IF you believe this why do you believe a CLIP WAS INSIDE THE RIFLE > > > Walt?? YOU make NO sense at all > > > THINK!!!.... I said the authorities... THEORIZED.. that Lee Oswald > > fired that MC from the so called "Sniper's Nest". That THEORY requires > > that the clip had to have been ejected from the rifle when the final > > live round in the clip was chambered. > > So far so good. > > > They said Oswald had FOUR > > cartridges, and he fired three of them, and the three spent shells > > were found in the make believe "Sniper's Nest" > > Were they?? Think Walt, think! The OFFICIAL evidence photo shows ONLY > two! > > > IF there were three > > spent rounds found in the SN then that means the bolt was opened AFTER > > the third round was fired. The reflex action of closing of the bolt > > after that third spent shell was ejected would have stripped the last > > cartridge from the clip and the clip would have fallen on the floor at > > that time. > > I agree with this Walt, YOU are the ONE that has argued with me that > the CLIP WAS INSIDE THE RIFLE WHEN IT WAS FOUND! So you are > contridicted yourself here, but you are right here! > > > BUT the clip was NOT on the floor...which means the whole theory is a > > CROCK!!!. > > Perhaps there was NO clip Walt as YOU have said it was a prop gun, > remember? Why do you need a clip for a prop gun? > > > What actually happened is:.... The rifle was prepared as a "throw > > down" gun BEFORE the shooting. The numbskull who prepared the gun and > > hid it beneath those boxes of books wasn't very familiar with the > > rile, and when he attempted to load a single live round into the > > chambered he jammed the bolt in trying, he then inserted the clip in > > the magazine and hid the rifle beneath those boxes of books. > > THERE IS NO EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT THIS THEORY WALT! NONE! There is NO > mention of a clip by anyone, there are NO photographs of the clip > until they took the rifle out of the TSBD 30 minutes later, and there > is NO inventory number for the clip! Sylvia Meagher showed years ago > there is NO mention of the clip anywhere in the 26 volumes of > evidence. > > How do you explain this IF it was inside the rifle when they found it?</span></b></pre> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">If I may.<br> There is no problem with the fact that the weapon found in the TSBD<br> was the murder weapon and there was a clip in it when it was found.<br> This clip issue is really a non issue. The police were amateurs at<br> police work and did many things wrong which caused problems from the<br> start.</span></b></p> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> According to two Italian immigrant men who served in the Italian army<br> and were familiar with the Carcano 6.5 . I worked with them at<br> Republic Steel and asked them , after the Dallas event, about the<br> operation of the MC: They were surprised to hear that there was a<br> problem with the clip.</span></b></p> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> According to both of them:</span></b></p> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">MC ammunition from Italian factories and in factory sealed clips did<br> not fall out of the rifle when the last round was chambered. A soldier<br> carried a cloth sack with extra clips and when the last round was<br> chambered, he had to inject a new clip into the magazine from the top<br> and the old clip then fell out and was not used again. The<br> battlefields wer littered with empty clips. After the war and as<br> original factory loaded clips were used up, old clips were being used<br> with either Norma ammunition or Western ammo such as was used in<br> Dallas. Some clips were even homemade. It was these used and homemade<br> clips that were unreliable and sometimes they fell out on their own or<br> hung up in the magazine well and some performed as they were intended<br> to.</span></b></p> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">The Mannlicher Carcano clip issue "The clip usually falls out, but in</span></b></p> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> some rifles does not." -- Anthony Marsh</span></b></pre> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">The article, written by Charles H.Yust,Jr. (Some Interesting Clips)</span></b></p> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> appeared in the June 1960 issue of American Rifleman. On P.47, a photo and description of the clip operation appears. As follows:</span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> ITALY- Clip for Model 1891 6.5 mm. Mannlicher Carcano rifle and carbine employing Mannlicher-type magazine. Holds 6 cartridges. Made of brass and tinned, blued.Parkerized and cadmium - plated steel, clip is held in magazine until last round is used, and then PUSHED OUT BOTTOM of magazine when new clip is forced in from top. Clip was also used with Vetterli rifles and carbines altered during World War 1 to 6.5 mm Mannlicher-type magazine. In 1938, when Italy increased caliber of rifle and carbine to 7.35 mm.,same magazine and clip were retained.</span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> The original factory filled clip (SMI) should not fall out when last round is chambered as reported. However, numerous clips were made to accommodate surplus ammo when an original Italian clip was not available. Some were even homemade. The Dallas clip was in the weapon when found. It was empty and a round was found in the chamber. The clip did not fall out. It was an original Italian clip which had been emptied at some point and refilled with the Western ammo. Probably because, by 1963, there were reports of misfires with the Italian ammo. If you are on a mission to kill the most powerful man in the world, I think it wise to use more reliable ammo.</span></b></pre> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">Charles H.Yust,Jr.was an expert on clips and his word was reliable.</span></b></p> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> June 1960 issue of American Rifleman. On P.47,</span></b></pre> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">WALT says: The Mannlicher Carcano CANNOT be used as a rifle unless</span></b></p> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> there is a clip available and used to load the cartridge into the chamber. IT CANNOT BE USED AS A SINGLE SHOT RIFLE!!!</span></b></pre> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">WRONG. It was often used as a single shot weapon when tested. .The<br> clips/chargers can be inserted in the magazine from either end and</span></b></p> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> they can be used over and over, and, remember without the clips/ chargers you have a single shot rifle!</span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">However, when the last cartridge is chambered your clip may emerge, and MIGHT even drop, out of the magazine and it may not. You are then ready to reload. Reloaded clips are not reliable to perform as Charles H.Yust,Jr described the original factory loaded clips.</span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">The HSCA firearms panel seemed not to be interested in this phenomenon, since it did not test the clip under firing conditions. Congressman Edgar learned about the defect from Mr. Lutz when he asked for details about their firing test:</span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">Mr. Lutz. This was a single cartridge being inserted into the chamber and firing into a cotton waste recovery box...backing away from the box, a foot or two, and pointing the muzzle into the box and then firing into it, in order to recover the projectile. ******Mr. Edgar. But you weren't firing with clip -- using the clip, were you?</span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">******Mr. Lutz. No sir; I did not.</span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">**** Mr. Edgar. Did anyone on the panel fire with the clip in?</span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">***** Mr. Lutz. I do not believe so; no, sir.</span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">Mr. Edgar. What was the reason for that?</span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">Mr. Lutz. There were no particular markings that we were able to identify as having come from the clip, nor were we checking for time firing or sequential firing in any way in that respect.</span></b></pre> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">Under the heading "Findings and Conclusions of the Firearms Panel</span></b></p> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> Concerning the Kennedy Assassination," we learn that, "Two bullets were test-fired into a horizontal water recovery tank. Further tests were conducted by loading four cartridges into the CE 375 [sic] cartridge clip and inserting it into the magazine of the rifle. The</span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">cartridges were worked through the rifle's mechanism and ejected without being fired. When the last cartridge was chambered, the cartridge clip remained in the magazine instead of falling out as it is designed to do."16 Given Mr. Lutz's "the clip many times will open up" statement, this result demands further explanation.</span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">"Many times will" also means "many times won't." Metal expands when heated and can alter its shape. But during the HSCA tests of the loading mechanism, the rifle should have been cool. In addition, CE 541 (3), a photograph of the clip stuck in the magazine reproduced on page 83 of the Warren Report, shows it in a cool rifle. Surely the rifle had not been fired for some time before that photography session. Is Lutz suggesting that the clip's sides spring out when cool and then return to a normal shape in the heat of firing? If such a violation of the laws of physics occurs with this rifle and clip, how then could the rifle have "contained a clip" when found?</span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">---- PHYSICAL EVIDENCE / The Rifle</span></b></pre> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">That said, there is definite suspicion that the weapon used was not<br> the one LHO bought in the spring of 1963 to kill Walker with. It is<br> suspected that a second rifle was purchased and the serial number was<br> changed to C-2766 to frame the rabbit, Oswald.</span></b></p> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">That rifle, now in the National Archives, has had the serial number<br> changed to C-2766 in order to frame the rabbit. Someday someone will<br> prove that point. We are talking about two different weapons. Ask any<br> good gunsmith how easy that would be to change a serial number.</span></b></p> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">A strong argument can be made that the murder weapon was not the<br> weapon Lee bought in March to kill Gen. Walker with. The strange thing<br> is that they both had the same serial number ;which was the thing that<br> connected LHO to ownership. But, anyone familiar with the weapon knows<br> that the serial number is on the rear end of the barrel where the<br> barrel screws into the receiver. It can be removed in minutes and the<br> serial number can be changed very easily. Ask any good gunsmith.</span></b></p> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">From Martha Moyer, well known to the JFK assassination community.:</span></b></p> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">"Do you know how easy it is to change a SN on a rifle? I do!!! About<br> six months ago I considered having the SN on my MC changed to read<br> C2766. The gunsmith told me "no problem - in fact, quite simple" (Oh,<br> by the way, my MC is a 36") If I wanted to frame somebody - I would<br> get the serial number of their gun - registered to them - find a<br> duplicate and change to their SN. I would then leave it at the scene<br> of the crime"</span></b></p> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">Martha Moyer</span></b></p> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> Numerous weapons experts have compared the photos taken by Marina with<br> photos of the murder weapon and agree that they are not the same<br> weapon.</span></b></p> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">The Second Carcano<br> <a target="_blank" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fjfkresearch.freehomepage.com%2Fc2766.html\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNEd6G-qTH3FEu3TvIDH3bFwolCvZw';return true;" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; text-underline: single" href="http://jfkresearch.freehomepage.com/c2766.html"> http://jfkresearch.<wbr>freehomepage.com/c2766.html</a></span></b></p> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">We must hopefully use absolute evidence when we can, evidence that<br> could be used in a courtroom and there is really very little that<br> could be used against Oswald. Working in the building where the shots<br> came from is not enough and there is doubt that three shots even came<br> from the building. It was the serial number that connected Oswald to<br> the murder weapon</span></b></p> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">There was no missed shot....?</span></b></p> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">Despite the claims that there were three shots from the TSBD fired at<br> the JFK limousine.... prove it... Where is the physical evidence? The<br> three shell casings found under the sixth floor window? That won't do.<br> Even the Warren Wizards weren't sure.<br> SEE Page 110 and 111 of the Report to the President NUMBER OF SHOTS</span></b></p> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">"The consensus among the witnesses at the scene was that three shots<br> were fired.332 However, some heard only two shots,333 while others<br> testified that they heard four and perhaps as many as five or six<br> shots.334 The difficulty of accurate perception of the sound of<br> gunshots required careful scrutiny of all of this testimony regarding<br> the number of shots. The firing of a bullet causes a number of noises:<br> the muzzle blast, caused by the smashing of the hot gases which<br> propel<br> the bullet into the relatively stable air at the gun's muzzle; the<br> noise of the bullet, caused by the shock wave built up ahead of the<br> bullet's nose as it travels through the air; and the noise caused by<br> the impact of the bullet on its target.335 Each noise can be quite<br> sharp and may be perceived as a separate shot. The tall buildings in<br> the area might have further distorted the sound.</span></b></p> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">The physical and other evidence examined by the Commission compels the<br> conclusion that AT LEAST TWO SHOTS WERE FIRED As discussed previously,<br> the nearly whole bullet discovered at Parkland Hospital and the two<br> larger fragments found in the Presidential automobile, which were<br> identified as coming from the assassination rifle, came from at least<br> two separate bullets and possibly from three.336 The most convincing<br> evidence relating to the number of shots was provided by the presence<br> on the sixth floor of three spent cartridges which were demonstrated<br> to have been fired by the same rifle that fired the bullets which<br> caused the wounds. It is POSSIBLE that the assassin carried an EMPTY<br> SHELL in the rifle and fired only two shots, with the witnesses<br> hearing multiple noises made by the same shot. Soon after the<br> three ....Cont'd<br> <a target="_blank" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fwww.jfk-assassination.de%2Fwarren%2Fwcr%2Fpage110.php\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNHcdKqTD1lTnoD3GZ6VfU374Cl7hw';return true;" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; text-underline: single" href="http://www.jfk-assassination.de/warren/wcr/page110.php"> http://www.jfk-assassination.<wbr>de/warren/wcr/page110.php</a></span></b></p> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">Even Zapruder was not sure of the shot sequence:<br> Mr. Liebeler.<br> Let me go back now for just a moment and ask you how many shots you<br> heard altogether.</span></b></p> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">Mr. Zapruder.<br> I thought I heard two, it could be three, because to my estimation I<br> thought he was hit on the second--I really don't know. The whole thing<br> that has been transpiring--it was very upsetting and as you see I got<br> a little better all the time and this came up again and it to me<br> looked like the second shot, but I don't know. I never even heard a<br> third shot.</span></b></p> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">And Tague thought the shots came from up on the hill:<br> Mr. Tague.<br> Well, I was standing there watching, and really I was watching to try<br> to distinguish the President and his car. About this time I heard what<br> sounded like a firecracker. Well, a very loud firecracker. It<br> certainly didn't sound like a rifle shot. It was more of a loud<br> cannon- type sound. I looked around to see who was throwing<br> firecrackers or what was going on and I turned my head away from the<br> motorcade and, of course, two more shots.</span></b></p> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">And I ducked behind the post when I realized somebody was shooting<br> after the third shot. After the third shot, I ducked behind the bridge<br> abutment and was there for a second, and I glanced out and Just as I<br> looked out, the car following the President's car, the one with the<br> Secret Service men, was just flying past at that time.</span></b></p> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">Summing up. One shot missed the car completely and there is no record<br> of recovering any of its remains. One shot allegedly passed through<br> Kennedy and Connally and magically remained near pristine and ended up<br> at Parkland Hospital.</span></b></p> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">This bullet weighed 161 grains before it was fired at the motorcade.<br> When recovered it weighed 158.6 grains which means that very little<br> was lost in its destructive journey.</span></b></p> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">A fragment weighing 0.5 grains was recovered from Connally's arm.<br> Audrey Bell, the operating nurse, stated that there were four or five<br> fragments "anywhere from three to four millimeters in length and a<br> couple of millimeters wide. " These fragments disappeared at the<br> autopsy.</span></b></p> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">In addition, what happened to the fragment found in Connally's leg<br> wound? Also, there was a fragment in the governor's chest that was<br> never recovered. He died with fragments still in his body that weighed<br> more that the alleged two to three missing grains from C-399 that was<br> described as near pristine. And the Warrens say , about pristine,<br> "The Governor's wrist wound WAS NOT CAUSED BY A PRISTINE BULLET." p.<br> 94</span></b></p> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">So this leaves one bullet and it had to be the fatal projectile that<br> removed part of the president's skull and much of his brains.</span></b></p> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">After the coup, two bullet fragments were found in the Lincoln.<br> According to Warren , the two fragments weighed 44.6 and 21.0 grains<br> respectively."The heavier fragment was a portion of a bullet's nose<br> area... the lighter fragment consisted of a bullet's base... the two<br> fragments were both mutilated, and it was not possible to determine<br> from the fragments themselves whether they comprised the base and nose<br> of one bullet or of two separate bullets." WR</span></b></p> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">If one bullet missed the car completely and one ended up at Parkland<br> almost pristine, the last bullet logically would have to be the bullet<br> that hit JFK in the head and both fragments were from the same<br> projectile I disagree with this conclusion.</span></b></p> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">I suspect that, with the angle of the neck shot, the above fragments<br> would remain in the car, ergo,the remains of the single bullet , and<br> the head shot bullet probably ended up in tiny bits in Dealey Plaza.</span></b></p> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">Some say that Tague was hit by the first MISSED shot, but he heard<br> shots before he was hit by a very tiny fragment. So, he was probably<br> hit by a fragment from the third shot instead of the ALLEGED MISSED<br> FIRST SHOT. He also thought that the shots came from the "hill"</span></b></p> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">I personally do not believe there was a missed shot. If I were the<br> master-mind of the murder, I would be sure to provide evidence that<br> would assure the connection to the rifle and its owner. And since I<br> could not rely on the future condition of the bullets actually fired<br> at the occupants of the limousine, I would fire a bullet through the<br> barrel of the murder weapon before 11-22-63 and be sure to leave it<br> where it would be found. Enter the near pristine Parkland slug.</span></b></p> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">And enter Jack Ruby and the Parkland slug.</span></b></p> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">As Assistant. DA Alexander said, "The single bullet is like the<br> Immaculate Conception. Either you believe it or you don't."</span></b></p> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">Amen and amen.<br> Now we will hear from WALT correcting me again.<br> Let us prey.<br> Raymond</span></b></p> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></p> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> Show trimmed content </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; 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font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <table class="MsoNormalTable" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" id="table13"> <tr> <td valign="top" style="padding:0in 0in 0in 0in"> <p class="MsoNormal"><b> <span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Arial"><!--[if gte vml 1]><v:shape id="_x0000_s1046" type="#_x0000_t75" alt="" style='width:.75pt;height:.75pt'> <v:imagedata src="" o:href="https://groups.google.com/forum/clear.cache.gif"/> </v:shape><![endif]--></span></b></td> <td valign="top" style="padding:0in 0in 0in 0in"> <p class="MsoNormal"><span class="gfwsc1udpnb"><b> <span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:#222222">Raymond</span></b></span><b><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family: Arial"> </span></b></td> <td valign="top" style="padding:0in 0in 0in 0in"> <p class="MsoNormal" align="right" style="text-align:right"><b> <span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Arial"><!--[if gte vml 1]><v:shape id="_x0000_s1045" type="#_x0000_t75" alt="" style='width:.75pt;height:.75pt'> <v:imagedata src="" o:href="https://groups.google.com/forum/clear.cache.gif"/> </v:shape><![endif]--></span></b></p> <p class="MsoNormal" align="right" style="text-align:right"> <span class="gfwsc1udldbgfwsc1udldc"><b> <span title="Thursday, July 29, 2010 8:33:52 PM UTC-4" role="menu"> 7/29/10</span></b></span><b><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family: Arial"> </span></b></td> </tr> </table> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> <span class="gfwsc1udccb"> Other recipients: </span> <span class="gfwsc1udbcb"> </span> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> <span class="gfwsc1udmeb">> The Second Carcanohttp://http://www.google.com/url?q=http%3A%2F%2Fjfkresearch.freehomepage.com%2Fc2766.html&sa=D&sntz=1&usg=AFQjCNEd6G-qTH3FEu3TvIDH3bFwolCvZw</span> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">- show quoted text -</span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">On Jul 29, 4:21 pm, Raymond <Bluerhy...@aol.com> wrote: > On Jul 29, 2:36 pm, "robcap...@netscape.com" <robcap...@netscape.com> > wrote: > > > On Jul 28, 11:29 pm, Walt <papakochenb...@evertek.net> wrote: > > > > On Jul 28, 9:59 am, "robcap...@netscape.com" <robcap...@netscape.com> > > > wrote: > > > > IF you believe this why do you believe a CLIP WAS INSIDE THE RIFLE > > > > Walt?? YOU make NO sense at all > > > > THINK!!!.... I said the authorities... THEORIZED.. that Lee Oswald > > > fired that MC from the so called "Sniper's Nest". That THEORY requires > > > that the clip had to have been ejected from the rifle when the final > > > live round in the clip was chambered. > > > So far so good. > > > > They said Oswald had FOUR > > > cartridges, and he fired three of them, and the three spent shells > > > were found in the make believe "Sniper's Nest" > > > Were they?? Think Walt, think! The OFFICIAL evidence photo shows ONLY > > two! > > > > IF there were three > > > spent rounds found in the SN then that means the bolt was opened AFTER > > > the third round was fired. The reflex action of closing of the bolt > > > after that third spent shell was ejected would have stripped the last > > > cartridge from the clip and the clip would have fallen on the floor at > > > that time. > > > I agree with this Walt, YOU are the ONE that has argued with me that > > the CLIP WAS INSIDE THE RIFLE WHEN IT WAS FOUND! So you are > > contridicted yourself here, but you are right here! > > > > BUT the clip was NOT on the floor...which means the whole theory is a > > > CROCK!!!. > > > Perhaps there was NO clip Walt as YOU have said it was a prop gun, > > remember? Why do you need a clip for a prop gun? > > > > What actually happened is:.... The rifle was prepared as a "throw > > > down" gun BEFORE the shooting. The numbskull who prepared the gun and > > > hid it beneath those boxes of books wasn't very familiar with the > > > rile, and when he attempted to load a single live round into the > > > chambered he jammed the bolt in trying, he then inserted the clip in > > > the magazine and hid the rifle beneath those boxes of books. > > > THERE IS NO EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT THIS THEORY WALT! NONE! There is NO > > mention of a clip by anyone, there are NO photographs of the clip > > until they took the rifle out of the TSBD 30 minutes later, and there > > is NO inventory number for the clip! Sylvia Meagher showed years ago > > there is NO mention of the clip anywhere in the 26 volumes of > > evidence. > > > How do you explain this IF it was inside the rifle when they found it? > > If I may. > There is no problem with the fact that the weapon found in the TSBD > was the murder weapon and there was a clip in it when it was found. > This clip issue is really a non issue. The police were amateurs at > police work and did many things wrong which caused problems from the > start. > > According to two Italian immigrant men who served in the Italian army > and were familiar with the Carcano 6.5 . I worked with them at > Republic Steel and asked them , after the Dallas event, about the > operation of the MC: They were surprised to hear that there was a > problem with the clip. > > According to both of them: > > MC ammunition from Italian factories and in factory sealed clips did > not fall out of the rifle when the last round was chambered. A soldier > carried a cloth sack with extra clips and when the last round was > chambered, he had to inject a new clip into the magazine from the top > and the old clip then fell out and was not used again. The > battlefields wer littered with empty clips. After the war and as > original factory loaded clips were used up, old clips were being used > with either Norma ammunition or Western ammo such as was used in > Dallas. Some clips were even homemade. It was these used and homemade > clips that were unreliable and sometimes they fell out on their own or > hung up in the magazine well and some performed as they were intended > to. > > The Mannlicher Carcano clip issue "The clip usually falls out, but in > some rifles does not." > -- Anthony Marsh > > The article, written by Charles H.Yust,Jr. (Some Interesting Clips) > appeared in the June 1960 issue of American Rifleman. On P.47, a photo > and description of the clip operation appears. As follows: > > ITALY- Clip for Model 1891 6.5 mm. Mannlicher Carcano > rifle and carbine employing Mannlicher-type magazine. Holds 6 > cartridges. Made of brass and tinned, blued.Parkerized and cadmium - > plated steel, clip is held in magazine until last round is used, and > then PUSHED OUT BOTTOM of magazine when new clip is forced in from > top. Clip was also used with Vetterli rifles and carbines altered > during World War 1 to 6.5 mm Mannlicher-type magazine. In 1938, when > Italy increased caliber of rifle and carbine to 7.35 mm.,same magazine > and clip were retained. > > The original factory filled clip (SMI) should not fall out > when last round is chambered as reported. However, numerous clips were > made to accommodate surplus ammo when an original Italian clip was not > available. Some were even > homemade. The Dallas clip was in the weapon when found. It was empty > and a round was found in the chamber. The > clip did not fall out. It was an original Italian clip which had been > emptied at some point and refilled with the Western ammo. Probably > because, by 1963, there were reports of misfires with the Italian > ammo. If you are on a mission to kill the most powerful man in the > world, I think it wise to use more reliable ammo. > > Charles H.Yust,Jr.was an expert on clips and his word was reliable. > June 1960 issue of American Rifleman. On P.47, > > WALT says: The Mannlicher Carcano CANNOT be used as a rifle unless > there is a clip available and used to load the cartridge into the > chamber. IT CANNOT BE USED AS A SINGLE SHOT RIFLE!!! > > WRONG. It was often used as a single shot weapon when tested. .The > clips/chargers can be inserted in the magazine from either end and > they can be used over and over, and, remember without the clips/ > chargers you have a single shot rifle! > However, when the last cartridge is chambered your clip may emerge, > and MIGHT even drop, out of the magazine and it may not. You are then > ready to reload. Reloaded clips are not reliable to perform as Charles > H.Yust,Jr described the original factory loaded clips. > > The HSCA firearms panel seemed not to be interested in this > phenomenon, since it did not test the clip under firing conditions. > Congressman Edgar learned about the defect from Mr. Lutz when he asked > for details about their firing test: > > Mr. Lutz. This was a single cartridge being inserted into the chamber > and firing into a cotton waste recovery box...backing away from the > box, a foot or two, and pointing the muzzle into the box and then > firing into it, in order to recover the > projectile. ******Mr. Edgar. But you weren't firing with clip -- using > the clip, were you? > > ******Mr. Lutz. No sir; I did not. > > **** Mr. Edgar. Did anyone on the panel fire with the clip in? > > ***** Mr. Lutz. I do not believe so; no, sir. > > Mr. Edgar. What was the reason for that? > > Mr. Lutz. There were no particular markings that we were able to > identify as having come from the clip, nor were we checking for time > firing or sequential firing in any way in that respect. > > Under the heading "Findings and Conclusions of the Firearms Panel > Concerning the Kennedy Assassination," we learn that, "Two bullets > were test-fired into a horizontal water recovery tank. Further tests > were conducted by loading four cartridges into the CE 375 [sic] > cartridge clip and inserting it into the magazine of the rifle. The > cartridges were worked through the rifle's mechanism and ejected > without being fired. When the last cartridge was chambered, the > cartridge clip remained in the magazine instead of falling out as it > is designed to do."16 Given Mr. Lutz's "the clip many times will open > up" statement, this result demands further explanation. > > "Many times will" also means "many times won't." Metal expands when > heated and can alter its shape. But during the HSCA tests of the > loading mechanism, the rifle should have been cool. In addition, CE > 541 (3), a photograph of the clip stuck in the magazine reproduced on > page 83 of the Warren Report, shows it in a cool rifle. Surely the > rifle had not been fired for some time before that photography > session. Is Lutz suggesting that the clip's sides spring out when > cool > and then return to a normal shape in the heat of firing? If such a > violation of the laws of physics occurs with this rifle and clip, how > then could the rifle have "contained a clip" when found? > > ---- PHYSICAL EVIDENCE / The Rifle > > That said, there is definite suspicion that the weapon used was not > the one LHO bought in the spring of 1963 to kill Walker with. It is > suspected that a second rifle was purchased and the serial number was > changed to C-2766 to frame the rabbit, Oswald. > > That rifle, now in the National Archives, has had the serial number > changed to C-2766 in order to frame the rabbit. Someday someone will > prove that point. We are talking about two different weapons. Ask any > good gunsmith how easy that would be to change a serial number. > > A strong argument can be made that the murder weapon was not the > weapon Lee bought in March to kill Gen. Walker with. The strange thing > is that they both had the same serial number ;which was the thing that > connected LHO to ownership. But, anyone familiar with the weapon knows > that the serial number is on the rear end of the barrel where the > barrel screws into the receiver. It can be removed in minutes and the > serial number can be changed very easily. Ask any good gunsmith. > > From Martha Moyer, well known to the JFK assassination community.: > > "Do you know how easy it is to change a SN on a rifle? I do!!! About > six months ago I considered having the SN on my MC changed to read > C2766. The gunsmith told me "no problem - in fact, quite simple" (Oh, > by the way, my MC is a 36") If I wanted to frame somebody - I would > get the serial number of their gun - registered to them - find a > duplicate and change to their SN. I would then leave it at the scene > of the crime" > > Martha Moyer > > Numerous weapons experts have compared the photos taken by Marina with > photos of the murder weapon and agree that they are not the same > weapon. ></span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">> The Second Carcanohttp://<a target="_blank" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fjfkresearch.freehomepage.com%2Fc2766.html\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNEd6G-qTH3FEu3TvIDH3bFwolCvZw';return true;" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; text-underline: single" href="http://jfkresearch.freehomepage.com/c2766.html">jfkresearch.<wbr>freehomepage.com/c2766.html</a></span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">- show quoted text -</span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> > > We must hopefully use absolute evidence when we can, evidence that > could be used in a courtroom and there is really very little that > could be used against Oswald. Working in the building where the shots > came from is not enough and there is doubt that three shots even came > from the building. It was the serial number that connected Oswald to > the murder weapon > > There was no missed shot....? > > Despite the claims that there were three shots from the TSBD fired at > the JFK limousine.... prove it... Where is the physical evidence? The > three shell casings found under the sixth floor window? That won't do. > Even the Warren Wizards weren't sure. > SEE Page 110 and 111 of the Report to the President NUMBER OF SHOTS > > "The consensus among the witnesses at the scene was that three shots > were fired.332 However, some heard only two shots,333 while others > testified that they heard four and perhaps as many as five or six > shots.334 The difficulty of accurate perception of the sound of > gunshots required careful scrutiny of all of this testimony regarding > the number of shots. The firing of a bullet causes a number of noises: > the muzzle blast, caused by the smashing of the hot gases which > propel > the bullet into the relatively stable air at the gun's muzzle; the > noise of the bullet, caused by the shock wave built up ahead of the > bullet's nose as it travels through the air; and the noise caused by > the impact of the bullet on its target.335 Each noise can be quite > sharp and may be perceived as a separate shot. The tall buildings in > the area might have further distorted the sound. > > The physical and other evidence examined by the Commission compels the > conclusion that AT LEAST TWO SHOTS WERE FIRED As discussed previously, > the nearly whole bullet discovered at Parkland Hospital and the two > larger fragments found in the Presidential automobile, which were > identified as coming from the assassination rifle, came from at least > two separate bullets and possibly from three.336 The most convincing > evidence relating to the number of shots was provided by the presence > on the sixth floor of three spent cartridges which were demonstrated > to have been fired by the same rifle that fired the bullets which > caused the wounds. It is POSSIBLE that the assassin carried an EMPTY > SHELL in the rifle and fired only two shots, with the witnesses > hearing multiple noises made by the same shot. Soon after the</span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">> three ....Cont'dhttp://<a target="_blank" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fwww.jfk-assassination.de%2Fwarren%2Fwcr%2Fpage110.php\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNHcdKqTD1lTnoD3GZ6VfU374Cl7hw';return true;" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; text-underline: single" href="http://www.jfk-assassination.de/warren/wcr/page110.php">www.jfk-<wbr>assassination.de/warren/wcr/<wbr>page110.php</a></span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">- show quoted text -</span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> > > Even Zapruder was not sure of the shot sequence: > Mr. Liebeler. > Let me go back now for just a moment and ask you how many shots you > heard altogether. > > Mr. Zapruder. > I thought I heard two, it could be three, because to my estimation I > thought he was hit on the second--I really don't know. The whole thing > that has been transpiring--it was very upsetting and as you see I got > a little better all the time and this came up again and it to me > looked like the second shot, but I don't know. I never even heard a > third shot. > > And Tague thought the shots came from up on the hill: > Mr. Tague. > Well, I was standing there watching, and really I was watching to try > to distinguish the President and his car. About this time I heard what > sounded like a firecracker. Well, a very loud firecracker. It > certainly didn't sound like a rifle shot. It was more of a loud > cannon- type sound. I looked around to see who was throwing > firecrackers or what was going on and I turned my head away from the > motorcade and, of course, two more shots. > > And I ducked behind the post when I realized somebody was shooting > after the third shot. After the third shot, I ducked behind the bridge > abutment and was there for a second, and I glanced out and Just as I > looked out, the car following the President's car, the one with the > Secret Service men, was just flying past at that time. > > Summing up. One shot missed the car completely and there is no record > of recovering any of its remains. One shot allegedly passed through > Kennedy and Connally and magically remained near pristine and ended up > at Parkland Hospital. > > This bullet weighed 161 grains before it was fired at the motorcade. > When recovered it weighed 158.6 grains which means that very little > was lost in its destructive journey. > > A fragment weighing 0.5 grains was recovered from Connally's arm. > Audrey Bell, the operating nurse, stated that there were four or five > fragments "anywhere from three to four millimeters in length and a > couple of millimeters wide. " These fragments disappeared at the > autopsy. > > In addition, what happened to the fragment found in Connally's leg > wound? Also, there was a fragment in the governor's chest that was > never recovered. He died with fragments still in his body that weighed > more that the alleged two to three missing grains from C-399 that was > described as near pristine. And the Warrens say , about pristine, > "The Governor's wrist wound WAS NOT CAUSED BY A PRISTINE BULLET." p. > 94 > > So this leaves one bullet and it had to be the fatal projectile that > removed part of the president's skull and much of his brains. > > After the coup, two bullet fragments were found in the Lincoln. > According to Warren , the two fragments weighed 44.6 and 21.0 grains > respectively."The heavier fragment was a portion of a bullet's nose > area... the lighter fragment consisted of a bullet's base... the two > fragments were both mutilated, and it was not possible to determine > from the fragments themselves whether they comprised the base and nose > of one bullet or of two separate bullets." WR > > If one bullet missed the car completely and one ended up at Parkland > almost pristine, the last bullet logically would have to be the bullet > that hit JFK in the head and both fragments were from the same > projectile I disagree with this conclusion. > > I suspect that, with the angle of the neck shot, the above fragments > would remain in the car, ergo,the remains of the single bullet , and > the head shot bullet probably ended up in tiny bits in Dealey Plaza. > > Some say that Tague was hit by the first MISSED shot, but he heard > shots before he was hit by a very tiny fragment. So, he was probably > hit by a fragment from the third shot instead of the ALLEGED MISSED > FIRST SHOT. He also thought that the shots came from the "hill" > > I personally do not believe there was a missed shot. If I were the > master-mind of the murder, I would be sure to provide evidence that > would assure the connection to the rifle and its owner. And since I > could not rely on the future condition of the bullets actually fired > at the occupants of the limousine, I would fire a bullet through the > barrel of the murder weapon before 11-22-63 and be sure to leave it > where it would be found. Enter the near pristine Parkland slug. > > And enter Jack Ruby and the Parkland slug. > > As Assistant. DA Alexander said, "The single bullet is like the > Immaculate Conception. Either you believe it or you don't." > > Amen and amen. > Now we will hear from WALT correcting me again. > Let us prey. > Raymond</span></b></pre> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">Page II<br> It would help to understand the foreign marking system.</span></b></p> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> The Italian arms manufacturers used the same consecutive marking<br> system that the Germans used for identification, serial numbers,<br> manufacturing plant, etc..It began with a three digit serial number,<br> progressed through the thousand numbers. Example: 000-9999, then began<br> a prefix system. Example: A 111- A 9999. This progressed through the<br> alphabet -A-Z and AA-ZZ, etc..This system can be better understood by<br> looking at the serial numbers on the 100 rifles delivered to Klein's<br> in Feb. 1963. See Warren-Waldman exhibit #4. It is almost certain ,<br> since there were hundreds of thousands of rifles, many would have the<br> same number, however the prefix would be different. The FBI did locate<br> a rifle with the serial number 2766, while the LHO rifle was C-2766.</span></b></p> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> The invoice of Empire Wholesale Sporting Goods, Limited ,in<br> Montreal Canada, dated June 29, 1962, reflects the sale of 700 used<br> Italian rifles to Century Arms of St. Albens, Vermont. Exhibit D 156<br> was furnished by the owner of Century Arms on March 11, 1964 to the<br> FBI.</span></b></p> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> ORIGINAL LIST of serial numbers of 700 Carcano Italian carbines<br> Received by Century Arms, Inc, from Empire: Serial number 2766 appears<br> on last page of numbers (Exhibit D 103) See COMM. Exhibit No. 2562 #<br> 13 Warren Report It is almost impossible that two Carcanos would have<br> identical serial numbers unless someone altered them. (which I<br> suspect<br> was done in Dallas to frame LHO)</span></b></p> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> Meagher dealt with the 2766 serial number, but at the time, didn't<br> understand the numbering system or the Canada connection.</span></b></p> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> By the way, all serial numbers were not on the barrel. Some were on<br> the receiver, and even on the stock, some on more than one place. John<br> Cahill in VA has four Carcanos and two serial numbers are on the<br> receiver, two on the barrel.</span></b></p> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> There is so much to be explained about how and where the Carcanos<br> were made that it could never be done on this forum. Guns marked Terni<br> may not have been made there. They could have been made in a small<br> plant elsewhere and called the Terni rifle. Some parts were made in<br> small plants and assembled at Terni, thus the Terni name .</span></b></p> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> Because the guns looked alike, (the 7.35 mm and the 6.5 mm ) the<br> manufacturers stamped 7.35 on the stock so the troops knew what ammo<br> to use.</span></b></p> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">I often wondered why LHO did not buy his 6.5 ammo from Klein's.</span></b></p> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> I believe that it was because of the warning in the coupon itself,<br> and elsewhere in the full page Klein's ad.<br> "Handgun orders, and orders with ammo, are shipped express, charges<br> collect."</span></b></p> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> So, even if Lee had ordered ammo, at the same time he ordered the<br> rifle, the items would have been shipped separately. Hand guns and<br> ammunition were not shipped via U.S. Mail. This is why Seaport Traders<br> shipped LHOs 38 to Railway Express on Houston Street. All the ads in<br> the gun magazines advised the customer of that fact .I think I am<br> right<br> on the mail laws, but if not, SHUCKS!</span></b></p> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> Hundreds of ads in the gun magazines advertised the ammo, and some<br> even warned the user about the percentage of MIS-FIRES expected<br> because of the age of the ammo.</span></b></p> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> Walzer Arms Inc. of Elmwood, N.Y. advertised 6.5 and 7.35 Carcano<br> ammo by the case of 1728 rounds for<br> $51.28.AMERICAN RIFLEMAN 8-61.</span></b></p> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> Lee worked within a stones throw of Green's Dept. Store where they<br> sold both the rifle and the ammo.</span></b></p> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> Hundreds of American gun dealers sold both the original Italian and<br> Western ammo in both 7.35 mm and 6.5 mm.<br> Century Arms Inc. of St. Albens, Vt. sold Western 6.5 mm in Factory<br> Packed ctns. of 20 and in cases of 1000 rds. Price: $7.50 per 100 rds.<br> and $60.00 per 1000 rds. (Ad, American Rifleman, 9-62, p.119).</span></b></p> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> Walzer Arms of Elmford, NY sold 6.5 or 7.35 Italian M/C ammo by the<br> case of 1728 rds. for $51.28. (Ad, American Rifleman, 8-61.)</span></b></p> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> In the same Walzer ad was 6.5 Carcano Rifles (very good) $6.75 each<br> in cases of 20. And, 6.5 Carcano Carbines (very good) $7.75 each in<br> cases of 12.</span></b></p> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> I have seen photocopies of documentation that it was part of four<br> lots manufactured by WCC in 1954. It was, for military<br> ammunition, a very small batch: 4 million rounds as I understand.</span></b></p> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> There is much speculation about where it went--some say Greece..</span></b></p> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> My best understanding is that part of the contract never left the<br> U.S and that another part found its way back into the U.S.<br> If true, then some of that ammo was sold on the U.S. surplus<br> market illegally--as the aid laws forbade the reimportation and sale<br> of stuff sent overseas. It may have come back in the country via<br> Canada.</span></b></p> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> The ammunition was advertised regularly in American Rifleman<br> magazine beginning, I think, in late 1961, sold at a premium price,<br> because it had non-corrosive primers.</span></b></p> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> Several jobbers were selling it in case lots. I have the prices<br> somewhere in my notes.</span></b></p> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> The FBI found that only one or two gun shops in the Dallas area<br> were selling the ammo. They interviewed one owner, a fellow named<br> Masen, who said he had split a case lot with someone else. Masen<br> denied to the FBI having sold any of the ammo to Oswald.</span></b></p> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> That's about all I know off the top of my head.<br> --- John in VA</span></b></p> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> I can provide some information about the ammo used in Dallas.</span></b></p> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> The ammo was made by Western Cartridge Company of East Alton,<br> Illinois. It was bought by the Army for the CIA in 1954. It was<br> secretly made for the Italian government for the use in the overthrow<br> of the Communist government in Albania.</span></b></p> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> The CIA operation failed and the ammo went into storage. Most of it<br> was later used in the Cuban Bay of Pigs fiasco. What was remaining was<br> released into the American surplus market(reported about 2 million<br> rounds).</span></b></p> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> Originally, the Army received about 4 million rounds from Western<br> in lots 6000, 6001, 6002 and 6003. The Dallas ammo came from Lot<br> #6002.</span></b></p> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> An FBI memorandum, dated Dec. 1963 reads, "... does not fit and<br> cannot be fired in any of the Marine Corps weapons."</span></b></p> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> It was sold in boxes of 20 rounds. Marked on the box was;<br> 20 CARTRIDGES<br> 6.5 M/M MANNLICHER-CARCANO<br> TYPE BALL<br> DA-23-196-ORD-27<br> WESTERN CARTRIDGE COMPANY<br> DIVISION OF OLIN IND., INC.<br> EAST ALTON, ILLINOIS<br> LOT WCC- 6002</span></b></p> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> In 1963, this was probably the most reliable 6.5 mm ammo avaiable<br> since older ammo was responsible for about 10 per cent misfires.</span></b></p> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> ----- Raymond</span></b></p> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></p> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> Show trimmed content </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; 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font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <table class="MsoNormalTable" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" id="table14"> <tr> <td valign="top" style="padding:0in 0in 0in 0in"> <p class="MsoNormal"><b> <span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Arial"><!--[if gte vml 1]><v:shape id="_x0000_s1044" type="#_x0000_t75" alt="" style='width:.75pt;height:.75pt'> <v:imagedata src="" o:href="https://groups.google.com/forum/clear.cache.gif"/> </v:shape><![endif]--></span></b></td> <td valign="top" style="padding:0in 0in 0in 0in"> <p class="MsoNormal"><span class="gfwsc1udpnb"><b> <span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:#222222">Walt</span></b></span><b><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family: Arial"> </span></b></td> <td valign="top" style="padding:0in 0in 0in 0in"> <p class="MsoNormal" align="right" style="text-align:right"><b> <span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Arial"><!--[if gte vml 1]><v:shape id="_x0000_s1043" type="#_x0000_t75" alt="" style='width:.75pt;height:.75pt'> <v:imagedata src="" o:href="https://groups.google.com/forum/clear.cache.gif"/> </v:shape><![endif]--></span></b></p> <p class="MsoNormal" align="right" style="text-align:right"> <span class="gfwsc1udldbgfwsc1udldc"><b> <span title="Thursday, July 29, 2010 10:39:18 PM UTC-4" role="menu"> 7/29/10</span></b></span><b><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family: Arial"> </span></b></td> </tr> </table> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> <span class="gfwsc1udccb"> Other recipients: </span> <span class="gfwsc1udbcb"> </span> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> <span class="gfwsc1udmeb">> > - Show quoted text -</span> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">- show quoted text -</span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">On Jul 29, 3:21 pm, Raymond <Bluerhy...@aol.com> wrote: > On Jul 29, 2:36 pm, "robcap...@netscape.com" <robcap...@netscape.com> > wrote: > > > > > > > On Jul 28, 11:29 pm, Walt <papakochenb...@evertek.net> wrote: > > > > On Jul 28, 9:59 am, "robcap...@netscape.com" <robcap...@netscape.com> > > > wrote: > > > > IF you believe this why do you believe a CLIP WAS INSIDE THE RIFLE > > > > Walt?? YOU make NO sense at all > > > > THINK!!!.... I said the authorities... THEORIZED.. that Lee Oswald > > > fired that MC from the so called "Sniper's Nest". That THEORY requires > > > that the clip had to have been ejected from the rifle when the final > > > live round in the clip was chambered. > > > So far so good. > > > > They said Oswald had FOUR > > > cartridges, and he fired three of them, and the three spent shells > > > were found in the make believe "Sniper's Nest" > > > Were they?? Think Walt, think! The OFFICIAL evidence photo shows ONLY > > two! > > > > IF there were three > > > spent rounds found in the SN then that means the bolt was opened AFTER > > > the third round was fired. The reflex action of closing of the bolt > > > after that third spent shell was ejected would have stripped the last > > > cartridge from the clip and the clip would have fallen on the floor at > > > that time. > > > I agree with this Walt, YOU are the ONE that has argued with me that > > the CLIP WAS INSIDE THE RIFLE WHEN IT WAS FOUND! So you are > > contridicted yourself here, but you are right here! > > > > BUT the clip was NOT on the floor...which means the whole theory is a > > > CROCK!!!. > > > Perhaps there was NO clip Walt as YOU have said it was a prop gun, > > remember? Why do you need a clip for a prop gun? > > > > What actually happened is:.... The rifle was prepared as a "throw > > > down" gun BEFORE the shooting. The numbskull who prepared the gun and > > > hid it beneath those boxes of books wasn't very familiar with the > > > rile, and when he attempted to load a single live round into the > > > chambered he jammed the bolt in trying, he then inserted the clip in > > > the magazine and hid the rifle beneath those boxes of books. > > > THERE IS NO EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT THIS THEORY WALT! NONE! There is NO > > mention of a clip by anyone, there are NO photographs of the clip > > until they took the rifle out of the TSBD 30 minutes later, and there > > is NO inventory number for the clip! Sylvia Meagher showed years ago > > there is NO mention of the clip anywhere in the 26 volumes of > > evidence. > > > How do you explain this IF it was inside the rifle when they found it? > > If I may. > There is no problem with the fact that the weapon found in the TSBD > was the murder weapon and there was a clip in it when it was found. > This clip issue is really a non issue. The police were amateurs at > police work and did many things wrong which caused problems from the > start. > > According to two Italian immigrant men who served in the Italian army > and were familiar with the Carcano 6.5 . I worked with them at > Republic Steel and asked them , after the Dallas event, about the > operation of the MC: They were surprised to hear that there was a > problem with the clip. > > According to both of them: > > MC ammunition from Italian factories and in factory sealed clips did > not fall out of the rifle when the last round was chambered. A soldier > carried a cloth sack with extra clips and when the last round was > chambered, he had to inject a new clip into the magazine from the top > and the old clip then fell out and was not used again. The > battlefields wer littered with empty clips. After the war and as > original factory loaded clips were used up, old clips were being used > with either Norma ammunition or Western ammo such as was used in > Dallas. Some clips were even homemade. It was these used and homemade > clips that were unreliable and sometimes they fell out on their own or > hung up in the magazine well and some performed as they were intended > to. > > The Mannlicher Carcano clip issue "The clip usually falls out, but in > some rifles does not." > -- Anthony Marsh > > The article, written by Charles H.Yust,Jr. (Some Interesting Clips) > appeared in the June 1960 issue of American Rifleman. On P.47, a photo > and description of the clip operation appears. As follows: > > ITALY- Clip for Model 1891 6.5 mm. Mannlicher Carcano > rifle and carbine employing Mannlicher-type magazine. Holds 6 > cartridges. Made of brass and tinned, blued.Parkerized and cadmium - > plated steel, clip is held in magazine until last round is used, and > then PUSHED OUT BOTTOM of magazine when new clip is forced in from > top. Clip was also used with Vetterli rifles and carbines altered > during World War 1 to 6.5 mm Mannlicher-type magazine. In 1938, when > Italy increased caliber of rifle and carbine to 7.35 mm.,same magazine > and clip were retained. > > The original factory filled clip (SMI) should not fall out > when last round is chambered as reported. However, numerous clips were > made to accommodate surplus ammo when an original Italian clip was not > available. Some were even > homemade. The Dallas clip was in the weapon when found. It was empty > and a round was found in the chamber. The > clip did not fall out. It was an original Italian clip which had been > emptied at some point and refilled with the Western ammo. Probably > because, by 1963, there were reports of misfires with the Italian > ammo. If you are on a mission to kill the most powerful man in the > world, I think it wise to use more reliable ammo. > > Charles H.Yust,Jr.was an expert on clips and his word was reliable. > June 1960 issue of American Rifleman. On P.47, > > WALT says: The Mannlicher Carcano CANNOT be used as a rifle unless > there is a clip available and used to load the cartridge into the > chamber. IT CANNOT BE USED AS A SINGLE SHOT RIFLE!!! > > WRONG. It was often used as a single shot weapon when tested. .The > clips/chargers can be inserted in the magazine from either end and > they can be used over and over, and, remember without the clips/ > chargers you have a single shot rifle! > However, when the last cartridge is chambered your clip may emerge, > and MIGHT even drop, out of the magazine and it may not. You are then > ready to reload. Reloaded clips are not reliable to perform as Charles > H.Yust,Jr described the original factory loaded clips. > > The HSCA firearms panel seemed not to be interested in this > phenomenon, since it did not test the clip under firing conditions. > Congressman Edgar learned about the defect from Mr. Lutz when he asked > for details about their firing test: > > Mr. Lutz. This was a single cartridge being inserted into the chamber > and firing into a cotton waste recovery box...backing away from the > box, a foot or two, and pointing the muzzle into the box and then > firing into it, in order to recover the > projectile. ******Mr. Edgar. But you weren't firing with clip -- using > the clip, were you? > > ******Mr. Lutz. No sir; I did not. > > **** Mr. Edgar. Did anyone on the panel fire with the clip in? > > ***** Mr. Lutz. I do not believe so; no, sir. > > Mr. Edgar. What was the reason for that? > > Mr. Lutz. There were no particular markings that we were able to > identify as having come from the clip, nor were we checking for time > firing or sequential firing in any way in that respect. > > Under the heading "Findings and Conclusions of the Firearms Panel > Concerning the Kennedy Assassination," we learn that, "Two bullets > were test-fired into a horizontal water recovery tank. Further tests > were conducted by loading four cartridges into the CE 375 [sic] > cartridge clip and inserting it into the magazine of the rifle. The > cartridges were worked through the rifle's mechanism and ejected > without being fired. When the last cartridge was chambered, the > cartridge clip remained in the magazine instead of falling out as it > is designed to do."16 Given Mr. Lutz's "the clip many times will open > up" statement, this result demands further explanation. > > "Many times will" also means "many times won't." Metal expands when > heated and can alter its shape. But during the HSCA tests of the > loading mechanism, the rifle should have been cool. In addition, CE > 541 (3), a photograph of the clip stuck in the magazine reproduced on > page 83 of the Warren Report, shows it in a cool rifle. Surely the > rifle had not been fired for some time before that photography > session. Is Lutz suggesting that the clip's sides spring out when > cool > and then return to a normal shape in the heat of firing? If such a > violation of the laws of physics occurs with this rifle and clip, how > then could the rifle have "contained a clip" when found? > > ---- PHYSICAL EVIDENCE / The Rifle > > That said, there is definite suspicion that the weapon used was not > the one LHO bought in the spring of 1963 to kill Walker with. It is > suspected that a second rifle was purchased and the serial number was > changed to C-2766 to frame the rabbit, Oswald. > > That rifle, now in the National Archives, has had the serial number > changed to C-2766 in order to frame the rabbit. Someday someone will > prove that point. We are talking about two different weapons. Ask any > good gunsmith how easy that would be to change a serial number. > > A strong argument can be made that the murder weapon was not the > weapon Lee bought in March to kill Gen. Walker with. The strange thing > is that they both had the same serial number ;which was the thing that > connected LHO to ownership. But, anyone familiar with the weapon knows > that the serial number is on the rear end of the barrel where the > barrel screws into the receiver. It can be removed in minutes and the > serial number can be changed very easily. Ask any good gunsmith. > > From Martha Moyer, well known to the JFK assassination community.: > > "Do you know how easy it is to change a SN on a rifle? I do!!! About > six months ago I considered having the SN on my MC changed to read > C2766. The gunsmith told me "no problem - in fact, quite simple" (Oh, > by the way, my MC is a 36") If I wanted to frame somebody - I would > get the serial number of their gun - registered to them - find a > duplicate and change to their SN. I would then leave it at the scene</span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">> of the ... > > read more »- Hide quoted text -</span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">- show quoted text -</span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; 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font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> <span class="gfwsc1udccb"> Other recipients: </span> <span class="gfwsc1udbcb"> </span> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> <span class="gfwsc1udmeb">Raymond..... I wonder if you're confident enough to prove me "wrong"??? I'll bet you whatever amont of money you'd like to wager that you can't take any one of my Mannlicher Carcanos and place a cartridge in the chamber and close the bolt and fire</span> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">- show quoted text -</span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">On Jul 29, 3:21 pm, Raymond <Bluerhy...@aol.com> wrote: > On Jul 29, 2:36 pm, "robcap...@netscape.com" <robcap...@netscape.com> > wrote: > > > > > > > On Jul 28, 11:29 pm, Walt <papakochenb...@evertek.net> wrote: > > > > On Jul 28, 9:59 am, "robcap...@netscape.com" <robcap...@netscape.com> > > > wrote: > > > > IF you believe this why do you believe a CLIP WAS INSIDE THE RIFLE > > > > Walt?? YOU make NO sense at all > > > > THINK!!!.... I said the authorities... THEORIZED.. that Lee Oswald > > > fired that MC from the so called "Sniper's Nest". That THEORY requires > > > that the clip had to have been ejected from the rifle when the final > > > live round in the clip was chambered. > > > So far so good. > > > > They said Oswald had FOUR > > > cartridges, and he fired three of them, and the three spent shells > > > were found in the make believe "Sniper's Nest" > > > Were they?? Think Walt, think! The OFFICIAL evidence photo shows ONLY > > two! > > > > IF there were three > > > spent rounds found in the SN then that means the bolt was opened AFTER > > > the third round was fired. The reflex action of closing of the bolt > > > after that third spent shell was ejected would have stripped the last > > > cartridge from the clip and the clip would have fallen on the floor at > > > that time. > > > I agree with this Walt, YOU are the ONE that has argued with me that > > the CLIP WAS INSIDE THE RIFLE WHEN IT WAS FOUND! So you are > > contridicted yourself here, but you are right here! > > > > BUT the clip was NOT on the floor...which means the whole theory is a > > > CROCK!!!. > > > Perhaps there was NO clip Walt as YOU have said it was a prop gun, > > remember? Why do you need a clip for a prop gun? > > > > What actually happened is:.... The rifle was prepared as a "throw > > > down" gun BEFORE the shooting. The numbskull who prepared the gun and > > > hid it beneath those boxes of books wasn't very familiar with the > > > rile, and when he attempted to load a single live round into the > > > chambered he jammed the bolt in trying, he then inserted the clip in > > > the magazine and hid the rifle beneath those boxes of books. > > > THERE IS NO EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT THIS THEORY WALT! NONE! There is NO > > mention of a clip by anyone, there are NO photographs of the clip > > until they took the rifle out of the TSBD 30 minutes later, and there > > is NO inventory number for the clip! Sylvia Meagher showed years ago > > there is NO mention of the clip anywhere in the 26 volumes of > > evidence. > > > How do you explain this IF it was inside the rifle when they found it? > > If I may. > There is no problem with the fact that the weapon found in the TSBD > was the murder weapon and there was a clip in it when it was found. > This clip issue is really a non issue. The police were amateurs at > police work and did many things wrong which caused problems from the > start. > > According to two Italian immigrant men who served in the Italian army > and were familiar with the Carcano 6.5 . I worked with them at > Republic Steel and asked them , after the Dallas event, about the > operation of the MC: They were surprised to hear that there was a > problem with the clip. > > According to both of them: > > MC ammunition from Italian factories and in factory sealed clips did > not fall out of the rifle when the last round was chambered. A soldier > carried a cloth sack with extra clips and when the last round was > chambered, he had to inject a new clip into the magazine from the top > and the old clip then fell out and was not used again. The > battlefields wer littered with empty clips. After the war and as > original factory loaded clips were used up, old clips were being used > with either Norma ammunition or Western ammo such as was used in > Dallas. Some clips were even homemade. It was these used and homemade > clips that were unreliable and sometimes they fell out on their own or > hung up in the magazine well and some performed as they were intended > to. > > The Mannlicher Carcano clip issue "The clip usually falls out, but in > some rifles does not." > -- Anthony Marsh > > The article, written by Charles H.Yust,Jr. (Some Interesting Clips) > appeared in the June 1960 issue of American Rifleman. On P.47, a photo > and description of the clip operation appears. As follows: > > ITALY- Clip for Model 1891 6.5 mm. Mannlicher Carcano > rifle and carbine employing Mannlicher-type magazine. Holds 6 > cartridges. Made of brass and tinned, blued.Parkerized and cadmium - > plated steel, clip is held in magazine until last round is used, and > then PUSHED OUT BOTTOM of magazine when new clip is forced in from > top. Clip was also used with Vetterli rifles and carbines altered > during World War 1 to 6.5 mm Mannlicher-type magazine. In 1938, when > Italy increased caliber of rifle and carbine to 7.35 mm.,same magazine > and clip were retained. > > The original factory filled clip (SMI) should not fall out > when last round is chambered as reported. However, numerous clips were > made to accommodate surplus ammo when an original Italian clip was not > available. Some were even > homemade. The Dallas clip was in the weapon when found. It was empty > and a round was found in the chamber. The > clip did not fall out. It was an original Italian clip which had been > emptied at some point and refilled with the Western ammo. Probably > because, by 1963, there were reports of misfires with the Italian > ammo. If you are on a mission to kill the most powerful man in the > world, I think it wise to use more reliable ammo. > > Charles H.Yust,Jr.was an expert on clips and his word was reliable. > June 1960 issue of American Rifleman. On P.47, > > WALT says: The Mannlicher Carcano CANNOT be used as a rifle unless > there is a clip available and used to load the cartridge into the > chamber. IT CANNOT BE USED AS A SINGLE SHOT RIFLE!!! > > WRONG. It was often used as a single shot weapon when tested.</span></b></pre> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> Raymond..... I wonder if you're confident enough to prove me<br> "wrong"??? I'll bet you whatever amont of money you'd like to wager<br> that you can't take any one of my Mannlicher Carcanos and place a<br> cartridge in the chamber and close the bolt and fire the rifle....<br> If you can close the bolt on the cartridge that you place in the<br> chamber without using a clip I lose, but if you can't close the bolt<br> and fire the rifle then you lose. Now how much would you like to<br> bet????</span></b></p> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">- show quoted text -</span></b></pre> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"><br> The<br> > clips/chargers can be inserted in the magazine from either end and<br> > they can be used over and over, and, remember without the clips/<br> > chargers you have a single shot rifle!<br> > However, when the last cartridge is chambered your clip may emerge,<br> > and MIGHT even drop, out of the magazine and it may not. You are then<br> > ready to reload. Reloaded clips are not reliable to perform as Charles<br> > H.Yust,Jr described the original factory loaded clips.<br> ><br> > The HSCA firearms panel seemed not to be interested in this<br> > phenomenon, since it did not test the clip under firing conditions.<br> > Congressman Edgar learned about the defect from Mr. Lutz when he asked<br> > for details about their firing test:<br> ><br> > Mr. Lutz. This was a single cartridge being inserted into the chamber<br> > and firing into a cotton waste recovery box...backing away from the<br> > box, a foot or two, and pointing the muzzle into the box and then<br> > firing into it, in order to recover the<br> > projectile. ******Mr. Edgar. But you weren't firing with clip -- using<br> > the clip, were you?<br> ><br> > ******Mr. Lutz. No sir; I did not.<br> ><br> > **** Mr. Edgar. Did anyone on the panel fire with the clip in?<br> ><br> > ***** Mr. Lutz. I do not believe so; no, sir.<br> ><br> > Mr. Edgar. What was the reason for that?<br> ><br> > Mr. Lutz. There were no particular markings that we were able to<br> > identify as having come from the clip, nor were we checking for time<br> > firing or sequential firing in any way in that respect.<br> ><br> > Under the heading "Findings and Conclusions of the Firearms Panel<br> > Concerning the Kennedy Assassination," we learn that, "Two bullets<br> > were test-fired into a horizontal water recovery tank. Further tests<br> > were conducted by loading four cartridges into the CE 375 [sic]<br> > cartridge clip and inserting it into the magazine of the rifle. The<br> > cartridges were worked through the rifle's mechanism and ejected<br> > without being fired. When the last cartridge was chambered, the<br> > cartridge clip remained in the magazine instead of falling out as it<br> > is designed to do."16 Given Mr. Lutz's "the clip many times will open<br> > up" statement, this result demands further explanation.<br> ><br> > "Many times will" also means "many times won't." Metal expands when<br> > heated and can alter its shape. But during the HSCA tests of the<br> > loading mechanism, the rifle should have been cool. In addition, CE<br> > 541 (3), a photograph of the clip stuck in the magazine reproduced on<br> > page 83 of the Warren Report, shows it in a cool rifle. Surely the<br> > rifle had not been fired for some time before that photography<br> > session. Is Lutz suggesting that the clip's sides spring out when<br> > cool<br> > and then return to a normal shape in the heat of firing? If such a<br> > violation of the laws of physics occurs with this rifle and clip, how<br> > then could the rifle have "contained a clip" when found?<br> ><br> > ---- PHYSICAL EVIDENCE / The Rifle<br> ><br> > That said, there is definite suspicion that the weapon used was not<br> > the one LHO bought in the spring of 1963 to kill Walker with. It is<br> > suspected that a second rifle was purchased and the serial number was<br> > changed to C-2766 to frame the rabbit, Oswald.<br> ><br> > That rifle, now in the National Archives, has had the serial number<br> > changed to C-2766 in order to frame the rabbit. Someday someone will<br> > prove that point. We are talking about two different weapons. Ask any<br> > good gunsmith how easy that would be to change a serial number.<br> ><br> > A strong argument can be made that the murder weapon was not the<br> > weapon Lee bought in March to kill Gen. Walker with. The strange thing<br> > is that they both had the same serial number ;which was the thing that<br> > connected LHO to ownership. But, anyone familiar with the weapon knows<br> > that the serial number is on the rear end of the barrel where the<br> > barrel screws into the receiver. It can be removed in minutes and the<br> > serial number can be changed very easily. Ask any good gunsmith.<br> ><br> > From Martha Moyer, well known to the JFK assassination community.:<br> ><br> > "Do you know how easy it is to change a SN on a rifle? I do!!! About<br> > six months ago I considered having the SN on my MC changed to read<br> > C2766. The gunsmith told me "no problem - in fact, quite simple" (Oh,<br> > by the way, my MC is a 36") If I wanted to frame somebody - I would<br> > get the serial number of their gun - registered to them - find a<br> > duplicate and change to their SN. I would then leave it at the scene<br> > of the ...<br> ><br> > read more »- Hide quoted text -<br> ><br> > - Show quoted text -</span></b></p> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> Show trimmed content </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; 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font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <table class="MsoNormalTable" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" id="table16"> <tr> <td valign="top" style="padding:0in 0in 0in 0in"> <p class="MsoNormal"><b> <span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Arial"><!--[if gte vml 1]><v:shape id="_x0000_s1040" type="#_x0000_t75" alt="" style='width:.75pt;height:.75pt'> <v:imagedata src="" o:href="https://groups.google.com/forum/clear.cache.gif"/> </v:shape><![endif]--></span></b></td> <td valign="top" style="padding:0in 0in 0in 0in"> <p class="MsoNormal"><span class="gfwsc1udpnb"><b> <span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:#222222">Raymond</span></b></span><b><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family: Arial"> </span></b></td> <td valign="top" style="padding:0in 0in 0in 0in"> <p class="MsoNormal" align="right" style="text-align:right"><b> <span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Arial"><!--[if gte vml 1]><v:shape id="_x0000_s1039" type="#_x0000_t75" alt="" style='width:.75pt;height:.75pt'> <v:imagedata src="" o:href="https://groups.google.com/forum/clear.cache.gif"/> </v:shape><![endif]--></span></b></p> <p class="MsoNormal" align="right" style="text-align:right"> <span class="gfwsc1udldbgfwsc1udldc"><b> <span title="Saturday, July 31, 2010 11:30:10 AM UTC-4" role="menu"> 7/31/10</span></b></span><b><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family: Arial"> </span></b></td> </tr> </table> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> <span class="gfwsc1udccb"> Other recipients: </span> <span class="gfwsc1udbcb"> </span> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> <span class="gfwsc1udmeb">(Testimony of Robert A. Frazier FBI Weapons Expert) Mr. Eisenberg. Have you had occasion to purchase ammunition for this rifle? Mr. Frazier. Yes, sir. Mr. Eisenberg. Does the ammunition come in the clip? Mr. Frazier. Normally it does not. The ammunit</span> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">- show quoted text -</span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">On Jul 29, 10:51 pm, Walt <papakochenb...@evertek.net> wrote: > On Jul 29, 3:21 pm, Raymond <Bluerhy...@aol.com> wrote: > > > > > > > On Jul 29, 2:36 pm, "robcap...@netscape.com" <robcap...@netscape.com> > > wrote: > > > > On Jul 28, 11:29 pm, Walt <papakochenb...@evertek.net> wrote: > > > > > On Jul 28, 9:59 am, "robcap...@netscape.com" <robcap...@netscape.com> > > > > wrote: > > > > > IF you believe this why do you believe a CLIP WAS INSIDE THE RIFLE > > > > > Walt?? YOU make NO sense at all > > > > > THINK!!!.... I said the authorities... THEORIZED.. that Lee Oswald > > > > fired that MC from the so called "Sniper's Nest". That THEORY requires > > > > that the clip had to have been ejected from the rifle when the final > > > > live round in the clip was chambered. > > > > So far so good. > > > > > They said Oswald had FOUR > > > > cartridges, and he fired three of them, and the three spent shells > > > > were found in the make believe "Sniper's Nest" > > > > Were they?? Think Walt, think! The OFFICIAL evidence photo shows ONLY > > > two! > > > > > IF there were three > > > > spent rounds found in the SN then that means the bolt was opened AFTER > > > > the third round was fired. The reflex action of closing of the bolt > > > > after that third spent shell was ejected would have stripped the last > > > > cartridge from the clip and the clip would have fallen on the floor at > > > > that time. > > > > I agree with this Walt, YOU are the ONE that has argued with me that > > > the CLIP WAS INSIDE THE RIFLE WHEN IT WAS FOUND! So you are > > > contridicted yourself here, but you are right here! > > > > > BUT the clip was NOT on the floor...which means the whole theory is a > > > > CROCK!!!. > > > > Perhaps there was NO clip Walt as YOU have said it was a prop gun, > > > remember? Why do you need a clip for a prop gun? > > > > > What actually happened is:.... The rifle was prepared as a "throw > > > > down" gun BEFORE the shooting. The numbskull who prepared the gun and > > > > hid it beneath those boxes of books wasn't very familiar with the > > > > rile, and when he attempted to load a single live round into the > > > > chambered he jammed the bolt in trying, he then inserted the clip in > > > > the magazine and hid the rifle beneath those boxes of books. > > > > THERE IS NO EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT THIS THEORY WALT! NONE! There is NO > > > mention of a clip by anyone, there are NO photographs of the clip > > > until they took the rifle out of the TSBD 30 minutes later, and there > > > is NO inventory number for the clip! Sylvia Meagher showed years ago > > > there is NO mention of the clip anywhere in the 26 volumes of > > > evidence. > > > > How do you explain this IF it was inside the rifle when they found it? > > > If I may. > > There is no problem with the fact that the weapon found in the TSBD > > was the murder weapon and there was a clip in it when it was found. > > This clip issue is really a non issue. The police were amateurs at > > police work and did many things wrong which caused problems from the > > start. > > > According to two Italian immigrant men who served in the Italian army > > and were familiar with the Carcano 6.5 . I worked with them at > > Republic Steel and asked them , after the Dallas event, about the > > operation of the MC: They were surprised to hear that there was a > > problem with the clip. > > > According to both of them: > > > MC ammunition from Italian factories and in factory sealed clips did > > not fall out of the rifle when the last round was chambered. A soldier > > carried a cloth sack with extra clips and when the last round was > > chambered, he had to inject a new clip into the magazine from the top > > and the old clip then fell out and was not used again. The > > battlefields wer littered with empty clips. After the war and as > > original factory loaded clips were used up, old clips were being used > > with either Norma ammunition or Western ammo such as was used in > > Dallas. Some clips were even homemade. It was these used and homemade > > clips that were unreliable and sometimes they fell out on their own or > > hung up in the magazine well and some performed as they were intended > > to. > > > The Mannlicher Carcano clip issue "The clip usually falls out, but in > > some rifles does not." > > -- Anthony Marsh > > > The article, written by Charles H.Yust,Jr. (Some Interesting Clips) > > appeared in the June 1960 issue of American Rifleman. On P.47, a photo > > and description of the clip operation appears. As follows: > > > ITALY- Clip for Model 1891 6.5 mm. Mannlicher Carcano > > rifle and carbine employing Mannlicher-type magazine. Holds 6 > > cartridges. Made of brass and tinned, blued.Parkerized and cadmium - > > plated steel, clip is held in magazine until last round is used, and > > then PUSHED OUT BOTTOM of magazine when new clip is forced in from > > top. Clip was also used with Vetterli rifles and carbines altered > > during World War 1 to 6.5 mm Mannlicher-type magazine. In 1938, when > > Italy increased caliber of rifle and carbine to 7.35 mm.,same magazine > > and clip were retained. > > > The original factory filled clip (SMI) should not fall out > > when last round is chambered as reported. However, numerous clips were > > made to accommodate surplus ammo when an original Italian clip was not > > available. Some were even > > homemade. The Dallas clip was in the weapon when found. It was empty > > and a round was found in the chamber. The > > clip did not fall out. It was an original Italian clip which had been > > emptied at some point and refilled with the Western ammo. Probably > > because, by 1963, there were reports of misfires with the Italian > > ammo. If you are on a mission to kill the most powerful man in the > > world, I think it wise to use more reliable ammo. > > > Charles H.Yust,Jr.was an expert on clips and his word was reliable. > > June 1960 issue of American Rifleman. On P.47, > > > WALT says: The Mannlicher Carcano CANNOT be used as a rifle unless > > there is a clip available and used to load the cartridge into the > > chamber. IT CANNOT BE USED AS A SINGLE SHOT RIFLE!!! > > > WRONG. It was often used as a single shot weapon when tested. > > Raymond..... I wonder if you're confident enough to prove me > "wrong"??? I'll bet you whatever amont of money you'd like to wager > that you can't take any one of my Mannlicher Carcanos and place a > cartridge in the chamber and close the bolt and fire the rifle.... > If you can close the bolt on the cartridge that you place in the > chamber without using a clip I lose, but if you can't close the bolt > and fire the rifle then you lose. Now how much would you like to > bet????</span></b></pre> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> (Testimony of Robert A. Frazier FBI Weapons Expert)</span></b></p> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">Mr. Eisenberg.<br> Have you had occasion to purchase ammunition for this rifle?<br> Mr. Frazier.<br> Yes, sir.<br> Mr. Eisenberg.<br> Does the ammunition come in the clip?<br> Mr. Frazier.<br> Normally it does not. The ammunition that we have purchased for this<br> rifle comes in 20-shot boxes. It is possible and I say this as a<br> result of reading advertisements--to buy ammunition for this rifle,<br> and to receive a clip or clips at the same time, but not necessarily<br> part of the same shipment.<br> Mr. Eisenberg.<br> When you ordered C-250, which is now Commission Exhibit 542, did you<br> receive a clip with that rifle?<br> Mr. Frazier.<br> No, sir.<br> Mr. Eisenberg.<br> Would you deduce, therefore, that the clip--that someone wishing to<br> shoot that rifle and use a clip in the rifle would have purchased the<br> clip later?<br> Mr. Frazier.<br> They would have to acquire it from some source, yes.<br> Mr. Eisenberg.<br> Is it commonly available?<br> Mr. Frazier.<br> Yes, sir.<br> Mr. Mccloy.<br> Can you use that rifle without the clip?<br> Mr. Frazier.<br> Yes; you can.<br> Mr. Mccloy.<br> What is the advantage of the clip?<br> Mr. Frazier.<br> It permits repeated firing of the weapon without manually loading one<br> shot at a time.<br> Mr. Mccloy.<br> The only other way you can fire it is by way of manual load?<br> Mr. Frazier.<br> Yes, sir; one shot at a time.<br> Mr. Mccloy.<br> When you say a six-cartridge clip, could that gun have been fired with<br> the clip fully loaded and another one in the chamber?<br> Mr. Frazier.<br> Yes, sir.<br> Mr. Mccloy.<br> The same as the .30-06?<br> Mr. Frazier.<br> Yes, sir; the weapon will hold a maximum of seven.<br> <a target="_blank" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fwww.jfk-assassination.de%2Fwarren%2Fwch%2Fvol3%2Fpage398.php\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGxNqDcj5kknUlCDjp8U4J5vOjSxA';return true;" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; text-underline: single" href="http://www.jfk-assassination.de/warren/wch/vol3/page398.php"> http://www.jfk-assassination.<wbr>de/warren/wch/vol3/page398.php</a></span></b></p> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">The clips come in brass, blue steel and a parkerized grey finish. They will fit all versions of the Carcano. They will also fit the Scotti and Armaguerra semi-automatic rifles which Italy made all too few of. That’s for another story.</span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">For a brief period in the thirties Italy considered going to a 7.35 mm cartridge, and made some carbines in that calibre. If you find this stuff clipped they will also function in the 6.5 mm as their case</span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">bodies are the same diameter. The clips/chargers can be inserted in the magazine from either end.</span></b></pre> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">Of course they can be used over and over, and, remember without the<br> clips/chargers you have a SINGLE SHOT RIFLE.</span></b></p> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> Some Carcanos were converted to 8 x 57 mm Mauser under German supervision at the end of the war.</span></b></pre> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">---Finn Nielsen<br> March 7, 1943 - July 30, 2008</span></b></p> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> Diagnosed with cancer in March of 2006 and given 3-6 months to live,<br> Finn Nielsen bravely fought his last battle for more than 2 years,<br> peacefully crossing through the gates of Valhalla as of 1:15 am, July<br> 30, 2008, surrounded by his family.</span></b></p> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">He was well-loved, well-respected, and will be sorely missed by family<br> and friends.</span></b></p> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> Dedicated a lifetime to the art and science of Firearms</span></b></p> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">33 years experience in the field, worldwide, and has testified at all<br> levels of Court in The Province of Ontario for Defense and Prosecution<br> over 1000 times.<br> 'Distinguished' member of The Association of Firearms and Toolmark<br> Examiners and a member since its inception. A member of The Canadian<br> Society of Forensic Sciences.<br> Qualified Range Safety Officer with the Canadian Armed Forces as well<br> as an Honourary Small Arms Instructor at The Canada Armed Forces<br> School of Infantry.<br> Served as an Infantryman in the 2nd Battalion, The Canadian Guards in<br> the Canadian army which included a six-month tour of duty as a<br> peacekeeper in Cyprus.<br> Acted as a Firearms Expert with the Film Industry in Toronto and<br> assisted with weapons handling in many feature films, as well as<br> numerous television productions.</span></b></p> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">- show quoted text -</span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> > The > > > > > clips/chargers can be inserted in the magazine from either end and > > they can be used over and over, and, remember without the clips/ > > chargers you have a single shot rifle! > > However, when the last cartridge is chambered your clip may emerge, > > and MIGHT even drop, out of the magazine and it may not. You are then > > ready to reload. Reloaded clips are not reliable to perform as Charles > > H.Yust,Jr described the original factory loaded clips. > > > The HSCA firearms panel seemed not to be interested in this > > phenomenon, since it did not test the clip under firing conditions. > > Congressman Edgar learned about the defect from Mr. Lutz when he asked > > for details about their firing test: > > > Mr. Lutz. This was a single cartridge being inserted into the chamber > > and firing into a cotton waste recovery box...backing away from the > > box, a foot or two, and pointing the muzzle into the box and then > > firing into it, in order to recover the > > projectile. ******Mr. Edgar. But you weren't firing with clip -- using > > the clip, were you? > > > ******Mr. Lutz. No sir; I did not. > > > **** Mr. Edgar. Did anyone on the panel fire with the clip in? > > > ***** Mr. Lutz. I do not believe so; no, sir. > > > Mr. Edgar. What was the reason for that? > > > Mr. Lutz. There were no particular markings that we were able to > > identify as having come from the clip, nor were we checking for time > > firing or sequential firing in any way in that respect. > > > Under the heading "Findings and Conclusions of the Firearms Panel > > Concerning the Kennedy Assassination," we learn that, "Two bullets > > were test-fired into a horizontal water recovery tank. Further tests > > were conducted by loading four cartridges into the CE 375 [sic] > > cartridge clip and inserting it into the magazine of the rifle. The > > cartridges were worked through the rifle's mechanism and ejected > > without being fired. When the last cartridge was chambered, the > > cartridge clip remained in the magazine instead of falling out as it > > is designed to do."16 Given Mr. Lutz's "the clip many times will open > > up" statement, this result demands further explanation. > > > "Many times will" also means "many times won't." Metal expands when > > heated and can alter its shape. But during the HSCA tests of the > > loading mechanism, the rifle should have been cool. In addition, CE > > 541 (3), a photograph of the clip stuck in the magazine reproduced on > > page 83 of the Warren Report, shows it in a cool rifle. Surely the > > rifle had not been fired for some time before that photography > > session. Is Lutz suggesting that the clip's sides spring out when > > cool > > and then return to a normal shape in the heat of firing? If such a > > violation of the laws of physics occurs with this rifle and clip, how > > then could the rifle have "contained a clip" when found? > > > ---- PHYSICAL EVIDENCE / The Rifle > > > That said, there is definite suspicion that the weapon used was not > > the one LHO bought in the spring of 1963 to kill Walker with. It is > > suspected that a second rifle was purchased and the serial number was > > changed to C-2766 to frame the rabbit, Oswald. > > > That rifle, now in the National Archives, has had the serial number > > changed to C-2766 in order to frame the rabbit. Someday someone will > > prove that point. We are talking about two different weapons. Ask any > > good gunsmith how easy that would be to change a serial number. > > > A strong argument can be made that the murder weapon was not the > > weapon ></span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">> ... > > read more »- Hide quoted text - ></span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -</span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; 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font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <table class="MsoNormalTable" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" id="table17"> <tr> <td valign="top" style="padding:0in 0in 0in 0in"> <p class="MsoNormal"><b> <span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Arial"><!--[if gte vml 1]><v:shape id="_x0000_s1038" type="#_x0000_t75" alt="" style='width:.75pt;height:.75pt'> <v:imagedata src="" o:href="https://groups.google.com/forum/clear.cache.gif"/> </v:shape><![endif]--></span></b></td> <td valign="top" style="padding:0in 0in 0in 0in"> <p class="MsoNormal"><span class="gfwsc1udpnb"><b> <span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:#222222">Raymond</span></b></span><b><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family: Arial"> </span></b></td> <td valign="top" style="padding:0in 0in 0in 0in"> <p class="MsoNormal" align="right" style="text-align:right"><b> <span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Arial"><!--[if gte vml 1]><v:shape id="_x0000_s1037" type="#_x0000_t75" alt="" style='width:.75pt;height:.75pt'> <v:imagedata src="" o:href="https://groups.google.com/forum/clear.cache.gif"/> </v:shape><![endif]--></span></b></p> <p class="MsoNormal" align="right" style="text-align:right"> <span class="gfwsc1udldbgfwsc1udldc"><b> <span title="Saturday, July 31, 2010 12:58:10 PM UTC-4" role="menu"> 7/31/10</span></b></span><b><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family: Arial"> </span></b></td> </tr> </table> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> <span class="gfwsc1udccb"> Other recipients: </span> <span class="gfwsc1udbcb"> </span> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> <span class="gfwsc1udmeb">> Yes, sir; the weapon will hold a maximum of seven.http://www.google.com/url?q=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.jfk-assassination.de%2Fwarren%2Fwch%2Fvol3%2Fpage398.php&sa=D&sntz=1&usg=AFQjCNGxNqDcj5kknUlCDjp8U4J5vOjSxA</span> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">- show quoted text -</span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">On Jul 31, 11:30 am, Raymond <Bluerhy...@aol.com> wrote: > On Jul 29, 10:51 pm, Walt <papakochenb...@evertek.net> wrote: > > > > > > > On Jul 29, 3:21 pm, Raymond <Bluerhy...@aol.com> wrote: > > > > On Jul 29, 2:36 pm, "robcap...@netscape.com" <robcap...@netscape.com> > > > wrote: > > > > > On Jul 28, 11:29 pm, Walt <papakochenb...@evertek.net> wrote: > > > > > > On Jul 28, 9:59 am, "robcap...@netscape.com" <robcap...@netscape.com> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > IF you believe this why do you believe a CLIP WAS INSIDE THE RIFLE > > > > > > Walt?? YOU make NO sense at all > > > > > > THINK!!!.... I said the authorities... THEORIZED.. that Lee Oswald > > > > > fired that MC from the so called "Sniper's Nest". That THEORY requires > > > > > that the clip had to have been ejected from the rifle when the final > > > > > live round in the clip was chambered. > > > > > So far so good. > > > > > > They said Oswald had FOUR > > > > > cartridges, and he fired three of them, and the three spent shells > > > > > were found in the make believe "Sniper's Nest" > > > > > Were they?? Think Walt, think! The OFFICIAL evidence photo shows ONLY > > > > two! > > > > > > IF there were three > > > > > spent rounds found in the SN then that means the bolt was opened AFTER > > > > > the third round was fired. The reflex action of closing of the bolt > > > > > after that third spent shell was ejected would have stripped the last > > > > > cartridge from the clip and the clip would have fallen on the floor at > > > > > that time. > > > > > I agree with this Walt, YOU are the ONE that has argued with me that > > > > the CLIP WAS INSIDE THE RIFLE WHEN IT WAS FOUND! So you are > > > > contridicted yourself here, but you are right here! > > > > > > BUT the clip was NOT on the floor...which means the whole theory is a > > > > > CROCK!!!. > > > > > Perhaps there was NO clip Walt as YOU have said it was a prop gun, > > > > remember? Why do you need a clip for a prop gun? > > > > > > What actually happened is:.... The rifle was prepared as a "throw > > > > > down" gun BEFORE the shooting. The numbskull who prepared the gun and > > > > > hid it beneath those boxes of books wasn't very familiar with the > > > > > rile, and when he attempted to load a single live round into the > > > > > chambered he jammed the bolt in trying, he then inserted the clip in > > > > > the magazine and hid the rifle beneath those boxes of books. > > > > > THERE IS NO EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT THIS THEORY WALT! NONE! There is NO > > > > mention of a clip by anyone, there are NO photographs of the clip > > > > until they took the rifle out of the TSBD 30 minutes later, and there > > > > is NO inventory number for the clip! Sylvia Meagher showed years ago > > > > there is NO mention of the clip anywhere in the 26 volumes of > > > > evidence. > > > > > How do you explain this IF it was inside the rifle when they found it? > > > > If I may. > > > There is no problem with the fact that the weapon found in the TSBD > > > was the murder weapon and there was a clip in it when it was found. > > > This clip issue is really a non issue. The police were amateurs at > > > police work and did many things wrong which caused problems from the > > > start. > > > > According to two Italian immigrant men who served in the Italian army > > > and were familiar with the Carcano 6.5 . I worked with them at > > > Republic Steel and asked them , after the Dallas event, about the > > > operation of the MC: They were surprised to hear that there was a > > > problem with the clip. > > > > According to both of them: > > > > MC ammunition from Italian factories and in factory sealed clips did > > > not fall out of the rifle when the last round was chambered. A soldier > > > carried a cloth sack with extra clips and when the last round was > > > chambered, he had to inject a new clip into the magazine from the top > > > and the old clip then fell out and was not used again. The > > > battlefields wer littered with empty clips. After the war and as > > > original factory loaded clips were used up, old clips were being used > > > with either Norma ammunition or Western ammo such as was used in > > > Dallas. Some clips were even homemade. It was these used and homemade > > > clips that were unreliable and sometimes they fell out on their own or > > > hung up in the magazine well and some performed as they were intended > > > to. > > > > The Mannlicher Carcano clip issue "The clip usually falls out, but in > > > some rifles does not." > > > -- Anthony Marsh > > > > The article, written by Charles H.Yust,Jr. (Some Interesting Clips) > > > appeared in the June 1960 issue of American Rifleman. On P.47, a photo > > > and description of the clip operation appears. As follows: > > > > ITALY- Clip for Model 1891 6.5 mm. Mannlicher Carcano > > > rifle and carbine employing Mannlicher-type magazine. Holds 6 > > > cartridges. Made of brass and tinned, blued.Parkerized and cadmium - > > > plated steel, clip is held in magazine until last round is used, and > > > then PUSHED OUT BOTTOM of magazine when new clip is forced in from > > > top. Clip was also used with Vetterli rifles and carbines altered > > > during World War 1 to 6.5 mm Mannlicher-type magazine. In 1938, when > > > Italy increased caliber of rifle and carbine to 7.35 mm.,same magazine > > > and clip were retained. > > > > The original factory filled clip (SMI) should not fall out > > > when last round is chambered as reported. However, numerous clips were > > > made to accommodate surplus ammo when an original Italian clip was not > > > available. Some were even > > > homemade. The Dallas clip was in the weapon when found. It was empty > > > and a round was found in the chamber. The > > > clip did not fall out. It was an original Italian clip which had been > > > emptied at some point and refilled with the Western ammo. Probably > > > because, by 1963, there were reports of misfires with the Italian > > > ammo. If you are on a mission to kill the most powerful man in the > > > world, I think it wise to use more reliable ammo. > > > > Charles H.Yust,Jr.was an expert on clips and his word was reliable. > > > June 1960 issue of American Rifleman. On P.47, > > > > WALT says: The Mannlicher Carcano CANNOT be used as a rifle unless > > > there is a clip available and used to load the cartridge into the > > > chamber. IT CANNOT BE USED AS A SINGLE SHOT RIFLE!!! > > > > WRONG. It was often used as a single shot weapon when tested. > > > Raymond..... I wonder if you're confident enough to prove me > > "wrong"??? I'll bet you whatever amont of money you'd like to wager > > that you can't take any one of my Mannlicher Carcanos and place a > > cartridge in the chamber and close the bolt and fire the rifle.... > > If you can close the bolt on the cartridge that you place in the > > chamber without using a clip I lose, but if you can't close the bolt > > and fire the rifle then you lose. Now how much would you like to > > bet???? > > (Testimony of Robert A. Frazier FBI Weapons Expert) > > Mr. Eisenberg. > Have you had occasion to purchase ammunition for this rifle? > Mr. Frazier. > Yes, sir. > Mr. Eisenberg. > Does the ammunition come in the clip? > Mr. Frazier. > Normally it does not. The ammunition that we have purchased for this > rifle comes in 20-shot boxes. It is possible and I say this as a > result of reading advertisements--to buy ammunition for this rifle, > and to receive a clip or clips at the same time, but not necessarily > part of the same shipment. > Mr. Eisenberg. > When you ordered C-250, which is now Commission Exhibit 542, did you > receive a clip with that rifle? > Mr. Frazier. > No, sir. > Mr. Eisenberg. > Would you deduce, therefore, that the clip--that someone wishing to > shoot that rifle and use a clip in the rifle would have purchased the > clip later? > Mr. Frazier. > They would have to acquire it from some source, yes. > Mr. Eisenberg. > Is it commonly available? > Mr. Frazier. > Yes, sir. > Mr. Mccloy. > Can you use that rifle without the clip? > Mr. Frazier. > Yes; you can. > Mr. Mccloy. > What is the advantage of the clip? > Mr. Frazier. > It permits repeated firing of the weapon without manually loading one > shot at a time. > Mr. Mccloy. > The only other way you can fire it is by way of manual load? > Mr. Frazier. > Yes, sir; one shot at a time. > Mr. Mccloy. > When you say a six-cartridge clip, could that gun have been fired with > the clip fully loaded and another one in the chamber? > Mr. Frazier. > Yes, sir. > Mr. Mccloy. > The same as the .30-06? > Mr. Frazier.</span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">> Yes, sir; the weapon will hold a maximum of seven.<a target="_blank" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fwww.jfk-assassination.de%2Fwarren%2Fwch%2Fvol3%2Fpage398.php\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGxNqDcj5kknUlCDjp8U4J5vOjSxA';return true;" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; text-underline: single" href="http://www.jfk-assassination.de/warren/wch/vol3/page398.php">http://www.jfk-<wbr>assassination.de/warren/wch/<wbr>vol3/page398.php</a></span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">- show quoted text -</span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> > > The clips come in brass, blue steel and a parkerized grey finish. They > will fit all versions of the Carcano. They will also fit the Scotti > and Armaguerra semi-automatic rifles which Italy made all too few of. > That’s for another story. > > For a brief period in the thirties Italy considered going to a 7.35 mm > cartridge, and made some carbines in that calibre. If you find this > stuff clipped they will also function in the 6.5 mm as their case > bodies are the same diameter. The clips/chargers can be inserted in > the magazine from either end. > > Of course they can be used over and over, and, remember without the > clips/chargers you have a SINGLE SHOT RIFLE. > Some Carcanos were converted to 8 x 57 mm Mauser under German > supervision at the end of the war. > > ---Finn Nielsen > March 7, 1943 - July 30, 2008 > > Diagnosed with cancer in March of 2006 and given 3-6 months to live, > Finn Nielsen bravely fought his last battle for more than 2 years, > peacefully crossing through the gates of Valhalla as of 1:15 am, July > 30, 2008, surrounded by his family. > > He was well-loved, well-respected, and will be sorely missed by family > and friends. > > Dedicated a lifetime to the art and science of Firearms > > 33 years experience in the field, worldwide, and has testified at all > levels of Court in The Province of Ontario for Defense and Prosecution > over 1000 times. > 'Distinguished' member of The Association of Firearms and Toolmark > Examiners and a member since its inception. A member of The Canadian > Society of Forensic Sciences. > Qualified Range Safety Officer with the Canadian Armed Forces as well</span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">> as an ...</span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> > > read more »- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text -</span></b></pre> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> ADDENDUM:</span></b></p> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"><br> Mr. Eisenberg.<br> You have shown us photographs of a clip--the clip from the Exhibit 139</span></b></p> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> rifle? Mr. Frazier. Yes, sir. Mr. Eisenberg.</span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">One photograph loaded, and one unloaded? Mr. Frazier. Yes. In one instance I put six cartridges in the clip and photographed it. Mr. Eisenberg. Did you take those photographs? Mr. Frazier. Yes, sir.</span></b></pre> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">Mr. Mccloy.<br> Mr. Frazier, you testified that if you DIDN'T USE THE CLIP you would<br> only be able to shoot ONE SHELL AT A TIME, is that right?</span></b></p> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">Mr. Frazier.<br> Yes, sir; this weapon DOES NOT HAVE THE BOX MAGAZINE commonly found in<br> most military weapons which holds the cartridges and can be re-loaded<br> one at a time, but they must remain in the clip, or they will<br> malfunction. The follower in the weapon will throw the cartridges<br> right back out of the gun.</span></b></p> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">Mr. Mccloy.<br> That explains it to my mind, because I know I have fired rifles with<br> clips and fired them without clips. But they were much more convenient<br> in loading.<br> Mr. Mccloy.<br> Thank you very much, Mr. Frazier. You have been very helpful.</span></b></p> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> Show trimmed content </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; 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font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <table class="MsoNormalTable" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" id="table18"> <tr> <td valign="top" style="padding:0in 0in 0in 0in"> <p class="MsoNormal"><b> <span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Arial"><!--[if gte vml 1]><v:shape id="_x0000_s1036" type="#_x0000_t75" alt="" style='width:.75pt;height:.75pt'> <v:imagedata src="" o:href="https://groups.google.com/forum/clear.cache.gif"/> </v:shape><![endif]--></span></b></td> <td valign="top" style="padding:0in 0in 0in 0in"> <p class="MsoNormal"><span class="gfwsc1udpnb"><b> <span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:#222222">Walt</span></b></span><b><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family: Arial"> </span></b></td> <td valign="top" style="padding:0in 0in 0in 0in"> <p class="MsoNormal" align="right" style="text-align:right"><b> <span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Arial"><!--[if gte vml 1]><v:shape id="_x0000_s1035" type="#_x0000_t75" alt="" style='width:.75pt;height:.75pt'> <v:imagedata src="" o:href="https://groups.google.com/forum/clear.cache.gif"/> </v:shape><![endif]--></span></b></p> <p class="MsoNormal" align="right" style="text-align:right"> <span class="gfwsc1udldbgfwsc1udldc"><b> <span title="Monday, August 2, 2010 9:24:46 PM UTC-4" role="menu">8/2/10</span></b></span><b><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family: Arial"> </span></b></td> </tr> </table> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> <span class="gfwsc1udccb"> Other recipients: </span> <span class="gfwsc1udbcb"> </span> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> <span class="gfwsc1udmeb">I'll ask you again.... HOW MUCH WOULD YOU LIKE TO BET??? A lie posted by an "expert" is still a lie..... "Experts".... are not infallible.... Simply because a physician may be an excallent general pactioner he may not be an "expert" on diseases of</span> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">- show quoted text -</span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">On Jul 31, 10:30 am, Raymond <Bluerhy...@aol.com> wrote: > On Jul 29, 10:51 pm, Walt <papakochenb...@evertek.net> wrote: > > > > > > > On Jul 29, 3:21 pm, Raymond <Bluerhy...@aol.com> wrote: > > > > On Jul 29, 2:36 pm, "robcap...@netscape.com" <robcap...@netscape.com> > > > wrote: > > > > > On Jul 28, 11:29 pm, Walt <papakochenb...@evertek.net> wrote: > > > > > > On Jul 28, 9:59 am, "robcap...@netscape.com" <robcap...@netscape.com> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > IF you believe this why do you believe a CLIP WAS INSIDE THE RIFLE > > > > > > Walt?? YOU make NO sense at all > > > > > > THINK!!!.... I said the authorities... THEORIZED.. that Lee Oswald > > > > > fired that MC from the so called "Sniper's Nest". That THEORY requires > > > > > that the clip had to have been ejected from the rifle when the final > > > > > live round in the clip was chambered. > > > > > So far so good. > > > > > > They said Oswald had FOUR > > > > > cartridges, and he fired three of them, and the three spent shells > > > > > were found in the make believe "Sniper's Nest" > > > > > Were they?? Think Walt, think! The OFFICIAL evidence photo shows ONLY > > > > two! > > > > > > IF there were three > > > > > spent rounds found in the SN then that means the bolt was opened AFTER > > > > > the third round was fired. The reflex action of closing of the bolt > > > > > after that third spent shell was ejected would have stripped the last > > > > > cartridge from the clip and the clip would have fallen on the floor at > > > > > that time. > > > > > I agree with this Walt, YOU are the ONE that has argued with me that > > > > the CLIP WAS INSIDE THE RIFLE WHEN IT WAS FOUND! So you are > > > > contridicted yourself here, but you are right here! > > > > > > BUT the clip was NOT on the floor...which means the whole theory is a > > > > > CROCK!!!. > > > > > Perhaps there was NO clip Walt as YOU have said it was a prop gun, > > > > remember? Why do you need a clip for a prop gun? > > > > > > What actually happened is:.... The rifle was prepared as a "throw > > > > > down" gun BEFORE the shooting. The numbskull who prepared the gun and > > > > > hid it beneath those boxes of books wasn't very familiar with the > > > > > rile, and when he attempted to load a single live round into the > > > > > chambered he jammed the bolt in trying, he then inserted the clip in > > > > > the magazine and hid the rifle beneath those boxes of books. > > > > > THERE IS NO EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT THIS THEORY WALT! NONE! There is NO > > > > mention of a clip by anyone, there are NO photographs of the clip > > > > until they took the rifle out of the TSBD 30 minutes later, and there > > > > is NO inventory number for the clip! Sylvia Meagher showed years ago > > > > there is NO mention of the clip anywhere in the 26 volumes of > > > > evidence. > > > > > How do you explain this IF it was inside the rifle when they found it? > > > > If I may. > > > There is no problem with the fact that the weapon found in the TSBD > > > was the murder weapon and there was a clip in it when it was found. > > > This clip issue is really a non issue. The police were amateurs at > > > police work and did many things wrong which caused problems from the > > > start. > > > > According to two Italian immigrant men who served in the Italian army > > > and were familiar with the Carcano 6.5 . I worked with them at > > > Republic Steel and asked them , after the Dallas event, about the > > > operation of the MC: They were surprised to hear that there was a > > > problem with the clip. > > > > According to both of them: > > > > MC ammunition from Italian factories and in factory sealed clips did > > > not fall out of the rifle when the last round was chambered. A soldier > > > carried a cloth sack with extra clips and when the last round was > > > chambered, he had to inject a new clip into the magazine from the top > > > and the old clip then fell out and was not used again. The > > > battlefields wer littered with empty clips. After the war and as > > > original factory loaded clips were used up, old clips were being used > > > with either Norma ammunition or Western ammo such as was used in > > > Dallas. Some clips were even homemade. It was these used and homemade > > > clips that were unreliable and sometimes they fell out on their own or > > > hung up in the magazine well and some performed as they were intended > > > to. > > > > The Mannlicher Carcano clip issue "The clip usually falls out, but in > > > some rifles does not." > > > -- Anthony Marsh > > > > The article, written by Charles H.Yust,Jr. (Some Interesting Clips) > > > appeared in the June 1960 issue of American Rifleman. On P.47, a photo > > > and description of the clip operation appears. As follows: > > > > ITALY- Clip for Model 1891 6.5 mm. Mannlicher Carcano > > > rifle and carbine employing Mannlicher-type magazine. Holds 6 > > > cartridges. Made of brass and tinned, blued.Parkerized and cadmium - > > > plated steel, clip is held in magazine until last round is used, and > > > then PUSHED OUT BOTTOM of magazine when new clip is forced in from > > > top. Clip was also used with Vetterli rifles and carbines altered > > > during World War 1 to 6.5 mm Mannlicher-type magazine. In 1938, when > > > Italy increased caliber of rifle and carbine to 7.35 mm.,same magazine > > > and clip were retained. > > > > The original factory filled clip (SMI) should not fall out > > > when last round is chambered as reported. However, numerous clips were > > > made to accommodate surplus ammo when an original Italian clip was not > > > available. Some were even > > > homemade. The Dallas clip was in the weapon when found. It was empty > > > and a round was found in the chamber. The > > > clip did not fall out. It was an original Italian clip which had been > > > emptied at some point and refilled with the Western ammo. Probably > > > because, by 1963, there were reports of misfires with the Italian > > > ammo. If you are on a mission to kill the most powerful man in the > > > world, I think it wise to use more reliable ammo. > > > > Charles H.Yust,Jr.was an expert on clips and his word was reliable. > > > June 1960 issue of American Rifleman. On P.47, > > > > WALT says: The Mannlicher Carcano CANNOT be used as a rifle unless > > > there is a clip available and used to load the cartridge into the > > > chamber. IT CANNOT BE USED AS A SINGLE SHOT RIFLE!!! > > > > WRONG. It was often used as a single shot weapon when tested. > > > Raymond..... I wonder if you're confident enough to prove me > > "wrong"??? I'll bet you whatever amont of money you'd like to wager > > that you can't take any one of my Mannlicher Carcanos and place a > > cartridge in the chamber and close the bolt and fire the rifle.... > > If you can close the bolt on the cartridge that you place in the > > chamber without using a clip I lose, but if you can't close the bolt > > and fire the rifle then you lose. Now how much would you like to > > bet???? > > (Testimony of Robert A. Frazier FBI Weapons Expert) > > Mr. Eisenberg. > Have you had occasion to purchase ammunition for this rifle? > Mr. Frazier. > Yes, sir. > Mr. Eisenberg. > Does the ammunition come in the clip? > Mr. Frazier. > Normally it does not. The ammunition that we have purchased for this > rifle comes in 20-shot boxes. It is possible and I say this as a > result of reading advertisements--to buy ammunition for this rifle, > and to receive a clip or clips at the same time, but not necessarily > part of the same shipment. > Mr. Eisenberg. > When you ordered C-250, which is now Commission Exhibit 542, did you > receive a clip with that rifle? > Mr. Frazier. > No, sir. > Mr. Eisenberg. > Would you deduce, therefore, that the clip--that someone wishing to > shoot that rifle and use a clip in the rifle would have purchased the > clip later? > Mr. Frazier. > They would have to acquire it from some source, yes. > Mr. Eisenberg. > Is it commonly available? > Mr. Frazier. > Yes, sir. > Mr. Mccloy. > Can you use that rifle without the clip? > Mr. Frazier. > Yes; you can. > Mr. Mccloy. > What is the advantage of the clip? > Mr. Frazier. > It permits repeated firing of the weapon without manually loading one > shot at a time. > Mr. Mccloy. > The only other way you can fire it is by way of manual load? > Mr. Frazier. > Yes, sir; one shot at a time. > Mr. Mccloy. > When you say a six-cartridge clip, could that gun have been fired with > the clip fully loaded and another one in the chamber? > Mr. Frazier. > Yes, sir. > Mr. Mccloy. > The same as the .30-06? > Mr. Frazier. > Yes, sir; the weapon will hold a maximum of seven.<a target="_blank" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fwww.jfk-assassination.de%2Fwarren%2Fwch%2Fvol3%2Fpage398.php\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGxNqDcj5kknUlCDjp8U4J5vOjSxA';return true;" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; text-underline: single" href="http://www.jfk-assassination.de/warren/wch/vol3/page398.php">http://www.jfk-<wbr>assassination.de/warren/wch/<wbr>vol3/page398.php</a></span></b></pre> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">I'll ask you again.... HOW MUCH WOULD YOU LIKE TO BET???</span></b></p> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">A lie posted by an "expert" is still a lie..... "Experts".... are<br> not infallible.... Simply because a physician may be an excallent<br> general pactioner he may not be an "expert" on diseases of the<br> lungs. So simply because you cite an "expert" does NOT mean he's<br> correct in this case. I ask you again....HOW MUCH WOULD YOU LIKE TO<br> BET??</span></b></p> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">- show quoted text -</span></b></pre> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"><br> ><br> > The clips come in brass, blue steel and a parkerized grey finish. They<br> > will fit all versions of the Carcano. They will also fit the Scotti<br> > and Armaguerra semi-automatic rifles which Italy made all too few of.<br> > That’s for another story.<br> ><br> > For a brief period in the thirties Italy considered going to a 7.35 mm<br> > cartridge, and made some carbines in that calibre. If you find this<br> > stuff clipped they will also function in the 6.5 mm as their case<br> > bodies are the same diameter. The clips/chargers can be inserted in<br> > the magazine from either end.<br> ><br> > Of course they can be used over and over, and, remember without the<br> > clips/chargers you have a SINGLE SHOT RIFLE.<br> > Some Carcanos were converted to 8 x 57 mm Mauser under German<br> > supervision at the end of the war.<br> ><br> > ---Finn Nielsen<br> > March 7, 1943 - July 30, 2008<br> ><br> > Diagnosed with cancer in March of 2006 and given 3-6 months to live,<br> > Finn Nielsen bravely fought his last battle for more than 2 years,<br> > peacefully crossing through the gates of Valhalla as of 1:15 am, July<br> > 30, 2008, surrounded by his family.<br> ><br> > He was well-loved, well-respected, and will be sorely missed by family<br> > and friends.<br> ><br> > Dedicated a lifetime to the art and science of Firearms<br> ><br> > 33 years experience in the field, worldwide, and has testified at all<br> > levels of Court in The Province of Ontario for Defense and Prosecution<br> > over 1000 times.<br> > 'Distinguished' member of The Association of Firearms and Toolmark<br> > Examiners and a member since its inception. A member of The Canadian<br> > Society of Forensic Sciences.<br> > Qualified Range Safety Officer with the Canadian Armed Forces as well<br> > as an ...<br> ><br> > read more »- Hide quoted text -<br> ><br> > - Show quoted text -</span></b></p> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> Show trimmed content </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; 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font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <table class="MsoNormalTable" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" id="table19"> <tr> <td valign="top" style="padding:0in 0in 0in 0in"> <p class="MsoNormal"><b> <span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Arial"><!--[if gte vml 1]><v:shape id="_x0000_s1034" type="#_x0000_t75" alt="" style='width:.75pt;height:.75pt'> <v:imagedata src="" o:href="https://groups.google.com/forum/clear.cache.gif"/> </v:shape><![endif]--></span></b></td> <td valign="top" style="padding:0in 0in 0in 0in"> <p class="MsoNormal"><span class="gfwsc1udpnb"><b> <span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:#222222">Raymond</span></b></span><b><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family: Arial"> </span></b></td> <td valign="top" style="padding:0in 0in 0in 0in"> <p class="MsoNormal" align="right" style="text-align:right"><b> <span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Arial"><!--[if gte vml 1]><v:shape id="_x0000_s1033" type="#_x0000_t75" alt="" style='width:.75pt;height:.75pt'> <v:imagedata src="" o:href="https://groups.google.com/forum/clear.cache.gif"/> </v:shape><![endif]--></span></b></p> <p class="MsoNormal" align="right" style="text-align:right"> <span class="gfwsc1udldbgfwsc1udldc"><b> <span title="Tuesday, August 3, 2010 2:22:40 AM UTC-4" role="menu"> 8/3/10</span></b></span><b><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family: Arial"> </span></b></td> </tr> </table> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> <span class="gfwsc1udccb"> Other recipients: </span> <span class="gfwsc1udbcb"> </span> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> <span class="gfwsc1udmeb">---------------------- "A human being must have occupation if he or she is not to become a nuisance to the world." By Dorothy L. Sayers ---------------------------------------- Source: http://www.google.com/url?q=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.famousquotesabout.co</span> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">- show quoted text -</span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">On Aug 2, 9:24 pm, Walt <papakochenb...@evertek.net> wrote: > On Jul 31, 10:30 am, Raymond <Bluerhy...@aol.com> wrote: > > > > > > > On Jul 29, 10:51 pm, Walt <papakochenb...@evertek.net> wrote: > > > > On Jul 29, 3:21 pm, Raymond <Bluerhy...@aol.com> wrote: > > > > > On Jul 29, 2:36 pm, "robcap...@netscape.com" <robcap...@netscape.com> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > On Jul 28, 11:29 pm, Walt <papakochenb...@evertek.net> wrote: > > > > > > > On Jul 28, 9:59 am, "robcap...@netscape.com" <robcap...@netscape.com> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > IF you believe this why do you believe a CLIP WAS INSIDE THE RIFLE > > > > > > > Walt?? YOU make NO sense at all > > > > > > > THINK!!!.... I said the authorities... THEORIZED.. that Lee Oswald > > > > > > fired that MC from the so called "Sniper's Nest". That THEORY requires > > > > > > that the clip had to have been ejected from the rifle when the final > > > > > > live round in the clip was chambered. > > > > > > So far so good. > > > > > > > They said Oswald had FOUR > > > > > > cartridges, and he fired three of them, and the three spent shells > > > > > > were found in the make believe "Sniper's Nest" > > > > > > Were they?? Think Walt, think! The OFFICIAL evidence photo shows ONLY > > > > > two! > > > > > > > IF there were three > > > > > > spent rounds found in the SN then that means the bolt was opened AFTER > > > > > > the third round was fired. The reflex action of closing of the bolt > > > > > > after that third spent shell was ejected would have stripped the last > > > > > > cartridge from the clip and the clip would have fallen on the floor at > > > > > > that time. > > > > > > I agree with this Walt, YOU are the ONE that has argued with me that > > > > > the CLIP WAS INSIDE THE RIFLE WHEN IT WAS FOUND! So you are > > > > > contridicted yourself here, but you are right here! > > > > > > > BUT the clip was NOT on the floor...which means the whole theory is a > > > > > > CROCK!!!. > > > > > > Perhaps there was NO clip Walt as YOU have said it was a prop gun, > > > > > remember? Why do you need a clip for a prop gun? > > > > > > > What actually happened is:.... The rifle was prepared as a "throw > > > > > > down" gun BEFORE the shooting. The numbskull who prepared the gun and > > > > > > hid it beneath those boxes of books wasn't very familiar with the > > > > > > rile, and when he attempted to load a single live round into the > > > > > > chambered he jammed the bolt in trying, he then inserted the clip in > > > > > > the magazine and hid the rifle beneath those boxes of books. > > > > > > THERE IS NO EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT THIS THEORY WALT! NONE! There is NO > > > > > mention of a clip by anyone, there are NO photographs of the clip > > > > > until they took the rifle out of the TSBD 30 minutes later, and there > > > > > is NO inventory number for the clip! Sylvia Meagher showed years ago > > > > > there is NO mention of the clip anywhere in the 26 volumes of > > > > > evidence. > > > > > > How do you explain this IF it was inside the rifle when they found it? > > > > > If I may. > > > > There is no problem with the fact that the weapon found in the TSBD > > > > was the murder weapon and there was a clip in it when it was found. > > > > This clip issue is really a non issue. The police were amateurs at > > > > police work and did many things wrong which caused problems from the > > > > start. > > > > > According to two Italian immigrant men who served in the Italian army > > > > and were familiar with the Carcano 6.5 . I worked with them at > > > > Republic Steel and asked them , after the Dallas event, about the > > > > operation of the MC: They were surprised to hear that there was a > > > > problem with the clip. > > > > > According to both of them: > > > > > MC ammunition from Italian factories and in factory sealed clips did > > > > not fall out of the rifle when the last round was chambered. A soldier > > > > carried a cloth sack with extra clips and when the last round was > > > > chambered, he had to inject a new clip into the magazine from the top > > > > and the old clip then fell out and was not used again. The > > > > battlefields wer littered with empty clips. After the war and as > > > > original factory loaded clips were used up, old clips were being used > > > > with either Norma ammunition or Western ammo such as was used in > > > > Dallas. Some clips were even homemade. It was these used and homemade > > > > clips that were unreliable and sometimes they fell out on their own or > > > > hung up in the magazine well and some performed as they were intended > > > > to. > > > > > The Mannlicher Carcano clip issue "The clip usually falls out, but in > > > > some rifles does not." > > > > -- Anthony Marsh > > > > > The article, written by Charles H.Yust,Jr. (Some Interesting Clips) > > > > appeared in the June 1960 issue of American Rifleman. On P.47, a photo > > > > and description of the clip operation appears. As follows: > > > > > ITALY- Clip for Model 1891 6.5 mm. Mannlicher Carcano > > > > rifle and carbine employing Mannlicher-type magazine. Holds 6 > > > > cartridges. Made of brass and tinned, blued.Parkerized and cadmium - > > > > plated steel, clip is held in magazine until last round is used, and > > > > then PUSHED OUT BOTTOM of magazine when new clip is forced in from > > > > top. Clip was also used with Vetterli rifles and carbines altered > > > > during World War 1 to 6.5 mm Mannlicher-type magazine. In 1938, when > > > > Italy increased caliber of rifle and carbine to 7.35 mm.,same magazine > > > > and clip were retained. > > > > > The original factory filled clip (SMI) should not fall out > > > > when last round is chambered as reported. However, numerous clips were > > > > made to accommodate surplus ammo when an original Italian clip was not > > > > available. Some were even > > > > homemade. The Dallas clip was in the weapon when found. It was empty > > > > and a round was found in the chamber. The > > > > clip did not fall out. It was an original Italian clip which had been > > > > emptied at some point and refilled with the Western ammo. Probably > > > > because, by 1963, there were reports of misfires with the Italian > > > > ammo. If you are on a mission to kill the most powerful man in the > > > > world, I think it wise to use more reliable ammo. > > > > > Charles H.Yust,Jr.was an expert on clips and his word was reliable. > > > > June 1960 issue of American Rifleman. On P.47, > > > > > WALT says: The Mannlicher Carcano CANNOT be used as a rifle unless > > > > there is a clip available and used to load the cartridge into the > > > > chamber. IT CANNOT BE USED AS A SINGLE SHOT RIFLE!!! > > > > > WRONG. It was often used as a single shot weapon when tested. > > > > Raymond..... I wonder if you're confident enough to prove me > > > "wrong"??? I'll bet you whatever amont of money you'd like to wager > > > that you can't take any one of my Mannlicher Carcanos and place a > > > cartridge in the chamber and close the bolt and fire the rifle.... > > > If you can close the bolt on the cartridge that you place in the > > > chamber without using a clip I lose, but if you can't close the bolt > > > and fire the rifle then you lose. Now how much would you like to > > > bet???? > > > (Testimony of Robert A. Frazier FBI Weapons Expert) > > > Mr. Eisenberg. > > Have you had occasion to purchase ammunition for this rifle? > > Mr. Frazier. > > Yes, sir. > > Mr. Eisenberg. > > Does the ammunition come in the clip? > > Mr. Frazier. > > Normally it does not. The ammunition that we have purchased for this > > rifle comes in 20-shot boxes. It is possible and I say this as a > > result of reading advertisements--to buy ammunition for this rifle, > > and to receive a clip or clips at the same time, but not necessarily > > part of the same shipment. > > Mr. Eisenberg. > > When you ordered C-250, which is now Commission Exhibit 542, did you > > receive a clip with that rifle? > > Mr. Frazier. > > No, sir. > > Mr. Eisenberg. > > Would you deduce, therefore, that the clip--that someone wishing to > > shoot that rifle and use a clip in the rifle would have purchased the > > clip later? > > Mr. Frazier. > > They would have to acquire it from some source, yes. > > Mr. Eisenberg. > > Is it commonly available? > > Mr. Frazier. > > Yes, sir. > > Mr. Mccloy. > > Can you use that rifle without the clip? > > Mr. Frazier. > > Yes; you can. > > Mr. Mccloy. > > What is the advantage of the clip? > > Mr. Frazier. > > It permits repeated firing of the weapon without manually loading one > > shot at a time. > > Mr. Mccloy. > > The only other way you can fire it is by way of manual load? > > Mr. Frazier. > > Yes, sir; one shot at a time. > > Mr. Mccloy. > > When you say a six-cartridge clip, could that gun have been fired with > > the clip fully loaded and another one in the chamber? > > Mr. Frazier. > > Yes, sir. > > Mr. Mccloy. > > The same as the .30-06? > > Mr. Frazier. > > Yes, sir; the weapon will hold a maximum of seven.<a target="_blank" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fwww.jfk-assassination.de%2Fwarren%2Fwch%2Fvol3%2Fpage398.php\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGxNqDcj5kknUlCDjp8U4J5vOjSxA';return true;" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; text-underline: single" href="http://www.jfk-assassination.de/warren/wch/vol3/page398.php">http://www.jfk-<wbr>assassination.de/warren/wch/<wbr>vol3/page398.php</a> > > I'll ask you again.... HOW MUCH WOULD YOU LIKE TO BET??? > > A lie posted by an "expert" is still a lie..... "Experts".... are > not infallible.... Simply because a physician may be an excallent > general pactioner he may not be an "expert" on diseases of the > lungs. So simply because you cite an "expert" does NOT mean he's > correct in this case. I ask you again....HOW MUCH WOULD YOU LIKE TO > BET??</span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">---------------------- "A human being must have occupation if he or she is not to become a nuisance to the world." By Dorothy L. Sayers ------------------------------<wbr>----------</span></b></pre> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">Source: <a target="_blank" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fwww.famousquotesabout.com%2Fon%2FNuisance%23ixzz0vWNNwrx8\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNErmGkmU_ZwVdESrVYzZRDuoLj8cw';return true;" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; text-underline: single" href="http://www.famousquotesabout.com/on/Nuisance#ixzz0vWNNwrx8"> http://www.famousquotesabout.<wbr>com/on/Nuisance#ixzz0vWNNwrx8</a></span></b></p> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">> > > The clips come in brass, blue steel and a parkerized grey finish. They > > will fit all versions of the Carcano. They will also fit the Scotti > > and Armaguerra semi-automatic rifles which Italy made all too few of. > > That’s for another story. > > > For a brief period in the thirties Italy considered going to a 7.35 mm > > cartridge, and made some carbines in that calibre. If you find this > > stuff clipped they will also function in the 6.5 mm as their case > > bodies are the same diameter. The clips/chargers can be inserted in > > the magazine from either end. > > > Of course they can be used over and over, and, remember without the > > clips/chargers you have a SINGLE SHOT RIFLE. > > Some Carcanos were converted to 8 x 57 mm Mauser under German > > supervision at the end of the war. > > > ---Finn Nielsen ></span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">> ... > > read more »- Hide quoted text - ></span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -</span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> > > - Show quoted text -</span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> Show trimmed content </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; 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font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <table class="MsoNormalTable" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" id="table20"> <tr> <td valign="top" style="padding:0in 0in 0in 0in"> <p class="MsoNormal"><b> <span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Arial"><!--[if gte vml 1]><v:shape id="_x0000_s1032" type="#_x0000_t75" alt="" style='width:.75pt;height:.75pt'> <v:imagedata src="" o:href="https://groups.google.com/forum/clear.cache.gif"/> </v:shape><![endif]--></span></b></td> <td valign="top" style="padding:0in 0in 0in 0in"> <p class="MsoNormal"><span class="gfwsc1udpnb"><b> <span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:#222222">Walt</span></b></span><b><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family: Arial"> </span></b></td> <td valign="top" style="padding:0in 0in 0in 0in"> <p class="MsoNormal" align="right" style="text-align:right"><b> <span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Arial"><!--[if gte vml 1]><v:shape id="_x0000_s1031" type="#_x0000_t75" alt="" style='width:.75pt;height:.75pt'> <v:imagedata src="" o:href="https://groups.google.com/forum/clear.cache.gif"/> </v:shape><![endif]--></span></b></p> <p class="MsoNormal" align="right" style="text-align:right"> <span class="gfwsc1udldbgfwsc1udldc"><b> <span title="Monday, August 9, 2010 10:47:08 AM UTC-4" role="menu"> 8/9/10</span></b></span><b><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family: Arial"> </span></b></td> </tr> </table> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> <span class="gfwsc1udccb"> Other recipients: </span> <span class="gfwsc1udbcb"> </span> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> <span class="gfwsc1udmeb">Hey Raymond .....Your trolling has won you a challenge.... How much would you like to bet that the Mannlicher Carcano CANNOT be loaded by simply dropping a cartridge into the firing chamber and closing the bolt??? In other words it cannot be fired</span> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">- show quoted text -</span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">On Aug 2, 8:24 pm, Walt <papakochenb...@evertek.net> wrote: > On Jul 31, 10:30 am, Raymond <Bluerhy...@aol.com> wrote: > > > > > > > On Jul 29, 10:51 pm, Walt <papakochenb...@evertek.net> wrote: > > > > On Jul 29, 3:21 pm, Raymond <Bluerhy...@aol.com> wrote: > > > > > On Jul 29, 2:36 pm, "robcap...@netscape.com" <robcap...@netscape.com> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > On Jul 28, 11:29 pm, Walt <papakochenb...@evertek.net> wrote: > > > > > > > On Jul 28, 9:59 am, "robcap...@netscape.com" <robcap...@netscape.com> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > IF you believe this why do you believe a CLIP WAS INSIDE THE RIFLE > > > > > > > Walt?? YOU make NO sense at all > > > > > > > THINK!!!.... I said the authorities... THEORIZED.. that Lee Oswald > > > > > > fired that MC from the so called "Sniper's Nest". That THEORY requires > > > > > > that the clip had to have been ejected from the rifle when the final > > > > > > live round in the clip was chambered. > > > > > > So far so good. > > > > > > > They said Oswald had FOUR > > > > > > cartridges, and he fired three of them, and the three spent shells > > > > > > were found in the make believe "Sniper's Nest" > > > > > > Were they?? Think Walt, think! The OFFICIAL evidence photo shows ONLY > > > > > two! > > > > > > > IF there were three > > > > > > spent rounds found in the SN then that means the bolt was opened AFTER > > > > > > the third round was fired. The reflex action of closing of the bolt > > > > > > after that third spent shell was ejected would have stripped the last > > > > > > cartridge from the clip and the clip would have fallen on the floor at > > > > > > that time. > > > > > > I agree with this Walt, YOU are the ONE that has argued with me that > > > > > the CLIP WAS INSIDE THE RIFLE WHEN IT WAS FOUND! So you are > > > > > contridicted yourself here, but you are right here! > > > > > > > BUT the clip was NOT on the floor...which means the whole theory is a > > > > > > CROCK!!!. > > > > > > Perhaps there was NO clip Walt as YOU have said it was a prop gun, > > > > > remember? Why do you need a clip for a prop gun? > > > > > > > What actually happened is:.... The rifle was prepared as a "throw > > > > > > down" gun BEFORE the shooting. The numbskull who prepared the gun and > > > > > > hid it beneath those boxes of books wasn't very familiar with the > > > > > > rile, and when he attempted to load a single live round into the > > > > > > chambered he jammed the bolt in trying, he then inserted the clip in > > > > > > the magazine and hid the rifle beneath those boxes of books. > > > > > > THERE IS NO EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT THIS THEORY WALT! NONE! There is NO > > > > > mention of a clip by anyone, there are NO photographs of the clip > > > > > until they took the rifle out of the TSBD 30 minutes later, and there > > > > > is NO inventory number for the clip! Sylvia Meagher showed years ago > > > > > there is NO mention of the clip anywhere in the 26 volumes of > > > > > evidence. > > > > > > How do you explain this IF it was inside the rifle when they found it? > > > > > If I may. > > > > There is no problem with the fact that the weapon found in the TSBD > > > > was the murder weapon and there was a clip in it when it was found. > > > > This clip issue is really a non issue. The police were amateurs at > > > > police work and did many things wrong which caused problems from the > > > > start. > > > > > According to two Italian immigrant men who served in the Italian army > > > > and were familiar with the Carcano 6.5 . I worked with them at > > > > Republic Steel and asked them , after the Dallas event, about the > > > > operation of the MC: They were surprised to hear that there was a > > > > problem with the clip. > > > > > According to both of them: > > > > > MC ammunition from Italian factories and in factory sealed clips did > > > > not fall out of the rifle when the last round was chambered. A soldier > > > > carried a cloth sack with extra clips and when the last round was > > > > chambered, he had to inject a new clip into the magazine from the top > > > > and the old clip then fell out and was not used again. The > > > > battlefields wer littered with empty clips. After the war and as > > > > original factory loaded clips were used up, old clips were being used > > > > with either Norma ammunition or Western ammo such as was used in > > > > Dallas. Some clips were even homemade. It was these used and homemade > > > > clips that were unreliable and sometimes they fell out on their own or > > > > hung up in the magazine well and some performed as they were intended > > > > to. > > > > > The Mannlicher Carcano clip issue "The clip usually falls out, but in > > > > some rifles does not." > > > > -- Anthony Marsh > > > > > The article, written by Charles H.Yust,Jr. (Some Interesting Clips) > > > > appeared in the June 1960 issue of American Rifleman. On P.47, a photo > > > > and description of the clip operation appears. As follows: > > > > > ITALY- Clip for Model 1891 6.5 mm. Mannlicher Carcano > > > > rifle and carbine employing Mannlicher-type magazine. Holds 6 > > > > cartridges. Made of brass and tinned, blued.Parkerized and cadmium - > > > > plated steel, clip is held in magazine until last round is used, and > > > > then PUSHED OUT BOTTOM of magazine when new clip is forced in from > > > > top. Clip was also used with Vetterli rifles and carbines altered > > > > during World War 1 to 6.5 mm Mannlicher-type magazine. In 1938, when > > > > Italy increased caliber of rifle and carbine to 7.35 mm.,same magazine > > > > and clip were retained. > > > > > The original factory filled clip (SMI) should not fall out > > > > when last round is chambered as reported. However, numerous clips were > > > > made to accommodate surplus ammo when an original Italian clip was not > > > > available. Some were even > > > > homemade. The Dallas clip was in the weapon when found. It was empty > > > > and a round was found in the chamber. The > > > > clip did not fall out. It was an original Italian clip which had been > > > > emptied at some point and refilled with the Western ammo. Probably > > > > because, by 1963, there were reports of misfires with the Italian > > > > ammo. If you are on a mission to kill the most powerful man in the > > > > world, I think it wise to use more reliable ammo. > > > > > Charles H.Yust,Jr.was an expert on clips and his word was reliable. > > > > June 1960 issue of American Rifleman. On P.47, > > > > > WALT says: The Mannlicher Carcano CANNOT be used as a rifle unless > > > > there is a clip available and used to load the cartridge into the > > > > chamber. IT CANNOT BE USED AS A SINGLE SHOT RIFLE!!! > > > > > WRONG. It was often used as a single shot weapon when tested. > > > > Raymond..... I wonder if you're confident enough to prove me > > > "wrong"??? I'll bet you whatever amont of money you'd like to wager > > > that you can't take any one of my Mannlicher Carcanos and place a > > > cartridge in the chamber and close the bolt and fire the rifle.... > > > If you can close the bolt on the cartridge that you place in the > > > chamber without using a clip I lose, but if you can't close the bolt > > > and fire the rifle then you lose. Now how much would you like to > > > bet???? > > > (Testimony of Robert A. Frazier FBI Weapons Expert) > > > Mr. Eisenberg. > > Have you had occasion to purchase ammunition for this rifle? > > Mr. Frazier. > > Yes, sir. > > Mr. Eisenberg. > > Does the ammunition come in the clip? > > Mr. Frazier. > > Normally it does not. The ammunition that we have purchased for this > > rifle comes in 20-shot boxes. It is possible and I say this as a > > result of reading advertisements--to buy ammunition for this rifle, > > and to receive a clip or clips at the same time, but not necessarily > > part of the same shipment. > > Mr. Eisenberg. > > When you ordered C-250, which is now Commission Exhibit 542, did you > > receive a clip with that rifle? > > Mr. Frazier. > > No, sir. > > Mr. Eisenberg. > > Would you deduce, therefore, that the clip--that someone wishing to > > shoot that rifle and use a clip in the rifle would have purchased the > > clip later? > > Mr. Frazier. > > They would have to acquire it from some source, yes. > > Mr. Eisenberg. > > Is it commonly available? > > Mr. Frazier. > > Yes, sir. > > Mr. Mccloy. > > Can you use that rifle without the clip? > > Mr. Frazier. > > Yes; you can. > > Mr. Mccloy. > > What is the advantage of the clip? > > Mr. Frazier. > > It permits repeated firing of the weapon without manually loading one > > shot at a time. > > Mr. Mccloy. > > The only other way you can fire it is by way of manual load? > > Mr. Frazier. > > Yes, sir; one shot at a time. > > Mr. Mccloy. > > When you say a six-cartridge clip, could that gun have been fired with > > the clip fully loaded and another one in the chamber? > > Mr. Frazier. > > Yes, sir. > > Mr. Mccloy. > > The same as the .30-06? > > Mr. Frazier. > > Yes, sir; the weapon will hold a maximum of seven.<a target="_blank" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fwww.jfk-assassination.de%2Fwarren%2Fwch%2Fvol3%2Fpage398.php\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGxNqDcj5kknUlCDjp8U4J5vOjSxA';return true;" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; text-underline: single" href="http://www.jfk-assassination.de/warren/wch/vol3/page398.php">http://www.jfk-<wbr>assassination.de/warren/wch/<wbr>vol3/page398.php</a> > > I'll ask you again.... HOW MUCH WOULD YOU LIKE TO BET??? > > A lie posted by an "expert" is still a lie..... "Experts".... are > not infallible.... Simply because a physician may be an excallent > general pactioner he may not be an "expert" on diseases of the > lungs. So simply because you cite an "expert" does NOT mean he's > correct in this case. I ask you again....HOW MUCH WOULD YOU LIKE TO > BET??</span></b></pre> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"><br> Hey Raymond .....Your trolling has won you a challenge.... How much<br> would you like to bet that the Mannlicher Carcano CANNOT be loaded by<br> simply dropping a cartridge into the firing chamber and closing the<br> bolt??? In other words it cannot be fired as a "single shot"<br> rifle. Do you lack the guts to put some money behind your claim??</span></b></p> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"><br> ><br> ><br> ><br> ><br> ><br> > > The clips come in brass, blue steel and a parkerized grey finish. They<br> > > will fit all versions of the Carcano. They will also fit the Scotti<br> > > and Armaguerra semi-automatic rifles which Italy made all too few of.<br> > > That’s for another story.<br> ><br> > > For a brief period in the thirties Italy considered going to a 7.35 mm<br> > > cartridge, and made some carbines in that calibre. If you find this<br> > > stuff clipped they will also function in the 6.5 mm as their case<br> > > bodies are the same diameter. The clips/chargers can be inserted in<br> > > the magazine from either end.<br> ><br> > > Of course they can be used over and over, and, remember without the<br> > > clips/chargers you have a SINGLE SHOT RIFLE.<br> > > Some Carcanos were converted to 8 x 57 mm Mauser under German<br> > > supervision at the end of the war.<br> ><br> > > ---Finn Nielsen<br> ><br> > ...<br> ><br> > read more »- Hide quoted text -<br> ><br> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -<br> ><br> > - Show quoted text -</span></b></p> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> Show trimmed content </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; 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font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <table class="MsoNormalTable" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" id="table21"> <tr> <td valign="top" style="padding:0in 0in 0in 0in"> <p class="MsoNormal"><b> <span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Arial"><!--[if gte vml 1]><v:shape id="_x0000_s1030" type="#_x0000_t75" alt="" style='width:.75pt;height:.75pt'> <v:imagedata src="" o:href="https://groups.google.com/forum/clear.cache.gif"/> </v:shape><![endif]--></span></b></td> <td valign="top" style="padding:0in 0in 0in 0in"> <p class="MsoNormal"><span class="gfwsc1udpnb"><b> <span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:#222222">Raymond</span></b></span><b><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family: Arial"> </span></b></td> <td valign="top" style="padding:0in 0in 0in 0in"> <p class="MsoNormal" align="right" style="text-align:right"><b> <span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Arial"><!--[if gte vml 1]><v:shape id="_x0000_s1029" type="#_x0000_t75" alt="" style='width:.75pt;height:.75pt'> <v:imagedata src="" o:href="https://groups.google.com/forum/clear.cache.gif"/> </v:shape><![endif]--></span></b></p> <p class="MsoNormal" align="right" style="text-align:right"> <span class="gfwsc1udldbgfwsc1udldc"><b> <span title="Monday, August 9, 2010 12:50:16 PM UTC-4" role="menu"> 8/9/10</span></b></span><b><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family: Arial"> </span></b></td> </tr> </table> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> <span class="gfwsc1udccb"> Other recipients: </span> <span class="gfwsc1udbcb"> </span> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> <span class="gfwsc1udmeb">I'll bet you a box of 20 firecrackers. like these pictured here http://www.google.com/url?q=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.alibaba.com%2Fproduct-gs%2F296610655%2FFirecrackers%2Fshowimage.html&sa=D&sntz=1&usg=AFQjCNHrT4uv5hsJdQ5UJZIGaYr-b8sCYg >Pardon me, Raymond..</span> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">- show quoted text -</span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">On Aug 9, 10:47 am, Walt <papakochenb...@evertek.net> wrote: > On Aug 2, 8:24 pm, Walt <papakochenb...@evertek.net> wrote: > > > On Jul 31, 10:30 am, Raymond <Bluerhy...@aol.com> wrote: > > > > On Jul 29, 10:51 pm, Walt <papakochenb...@evertek.net> wrote: > > > > > On Jul 29, 3:21 pm, Raymond <Bluerhy...@aol.com> wrote: > > > > > > On Jul 29, 2:36 pm, "robcap...@netscape.com" <robcap...@netscape.com> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > On Jul 28, 11:29 pm, Walt <papakochenb...@evertek.net> wrote: > > > > > > > > On Jul 28, 9:59 am, "robcap...@netscape.com" <robcap...@netscape.com> > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > IF you believe this why do you believe a CLIP WAS INSIDE THE RIFLE > > > > > > > > Walt?? YOU make NO sense at all > > > > > > > > THINK!!!.... I said the authorities... THEORIZED.. that Lee Oswald > > > > > > > fired that MC from the so called "Sniper's Nest". That THEORY requires > > > > > > > that the clip had to have been ejected from the rifle when the final > > > > > > > live round in the clip was chambered. > > > > > > > So far so good. > > > > > > > > They said Oswald had FOUR > > > > > > > cartridges, and he fired three of them, and the three spent shells > > > > > > > were found in the make believe "Sniper's Nest" > > > > > > > Were they?? Think Walt, think! The OFFICIAL evidence photo shows ONLY > > > > > > two! > > > > > > > > IF there were three > > > > > > > spent rounds found in the SN then that means the bolt was opened AFTER > > > > > > > the third round was fired. The reflex action of closing of the bolt > > > > > > > after that third spent shell was ejected would have stripped the last > > > > > > > cartridge from the clip and the clip would have fallen on the floor at > > > > > > > that time. > > > > > > > I agree with this Walt, YOU are the ONE that has argued with me that > > > > > > the CLIP WAS INSIDE THE RIFLE WHEN IT WAS FOUND! So you are > > > > > > contridicted yourself here, but you are right here! > > > > > > > > BUT the clip was NOT on the floor...which means the whole theory is a > > > > > > > CROCK!!!. > > > > > > > Perhaps there was NO clip Walt as YOU have said it was a prop gun, > > > > > > remember? Why do you need a clip for a prop gun? > > > > > > > > What actually happened is:.... The rifle was prepared as a "throw > > > > > > > down" gun BEFORE the shooting. The numbskull who prepared the gun and > > > > > > > hid it beneath those boxes of books wasn't very familiar with the > > > > > > > rile, and when he attempted to load a single live round into the > > > > > > > chambered he jammed the bolt in trying, he then inserted the clip in > > > > > > > the magazine and hid the rifle beneath those boxes of books. > > > > > > > THERE IS NO EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT THIS THEORY WALT! NONE! There is NO > > > > > > mention of a clip by anyone, there are NO photographs of the clip > > > > > > until they took the rifle out of the TSBD 30 minutes later, and there > > > > > > is NO inventory number for the clip! Sylvia Meagher showed years ago > > > > > > there is NO mention of the clip anywhere in the 26 volumes of > > > > > > evidence. > > > > > > > How do you explain this IF it was inside the rifle when they found it? > > > > > > If I may. > > > > > There is no problem with the fact that the weapon found in the TSBD > > > > > was the murder weapon and there was a clip in it when it was found. > > > > > This clip issue is really a non issue. The police were amateurs at > > > > > police work and did many things wrong which caused problems from the > > > > > start. > > > > > > According to two Italian immigrant men who served in the Italian army > > > > > and were familiar with the Carcano 6.5 . I worked with them at > > > > > Republic Steel and asked them , after the Dallas event, about the > > > > > operation of the MC: They were surprised to hear that there was a > > > > > problem with the clip. > > > > > > According to both of them: > > > > > > MC ammunition from Italian factories and in factory sealed clips did > > > > > not fall out of the rifle when the last round was chambered. A soldier > > > > > carried a cloth sack with extra clips and when the last round was > > > > > chambered, he had to inject a new clip into the magazine from the top > > > > > and the old clip then fell out and was not used again. The > > > > > battlefields wer littered with empty clips. After the war and as > > > > > original factory loaded clips were used up, old clips were being used > > > > > with either Norma ammunition or Western ammo such as was used in > > > > > Dallas. Some clips were even homemade. It was these used and homemade > > > > > clips that were unreliable and sometimes they fell out on their own or > > > > > hung up in the magazine well and some performed as they were intended > > > > > to. > > > > > > The Mannlicher Carcano clip issue "The clip usually falls out, but in > > > > > some rifles does not." > > > > > -- Anthony Marsh > > > > > > The article, written by Charles H.Yust,Jr. (Some Interesting Clips) > > > > > appeared in the June 1960 issue of American Rifleman. On P.47, a photo > > > > > and description of the clip operation appears. As follows: > > > > > > ITALY- Clip for Model 1891 6.5 mm. Mannlicher Carcano > > > > > rifle and carbine employing Mannlicher-type magazine. Holds 6 > > > > > cartridges. Made of brass and tinned, blued.Parkerized and cadmium - > > > > > plated steel, clip is held in magazine until last round is used, and > > > > > then PUSHED OUT BOTTOM of magazine when new clip is forced in from > > > > > top. Clip was also used with Vetterli rifles and carbines altered > > > > > during World War 1 to 6.5 mm Mannlicher-type magazine. In 1938, when > > > > > Italy increased caliber of rifle and carbine to 7.35 mm.,same magazine > > > > > and clip were retained. > > > > > > The original factory filled clip (SMI) should not fall out > > > > > when last round is chambered as reported. However, numerous clips were > > > > > made to accommodate surplus ammo when an original Italian clip was not > > > > > available. Some were even > > > > > homemade. The Dallas clip was in the weapon when found. It was empty > > > > > and a round was found in the chamber. The > > > > > clip did not fall out. It was an original Italian clip which had been > > > > > emptied at some point and refilled with the Western ammo. Probably > > > > > because, by 1963, there were reports of misfires with the Italian > > > > > ammo. If you are on a mission to kill the most powerful man in the > > > > > world, I think it wise to use more reliable ammo. > > > > > > Charles H.Yust,Jr.was an expert on clips and his word was reliable. > > > > > June 1960 issue of American Rifleman. On P.47, > > > > > > WALT says: The Mannlicher Carcano CANNOT be used as a rifle unless > > > > > there is a clip available and used to load the cartridge into the > > > > > chamber. IT CANNOT BE USED AS A SINGLE SHOT RIFLE!!! > > > > > > WRONG. It was often used as a single shot weapon when tested. > > > > > Raymond..... I wonder if you're confident enough to prove me > > > > "wrong"??? I'll bet you whatever amont of money you'd like to wager > > > > that you can't take any one of my Mannlicher Carcanos and place a > > > > cartridge in the chamber and close the bolt and fire the rifle.... > > > > If you can close the bolt on the cartridge that you place in the > > > > chamber without using a clip I lose, but if you can't close the bolt > > > > and fire the rifle then you lose. Now how much would you like to > > > > bet???? > > > > (Testimony of Robert A. Frazier FBI Weapons Expert) > > > > Mr. Eisenberg. > > > Have you had occasion to purchase ammunition for this rifle? > > > Mr. Frazier. > > > Yes, sir. > > > Mr. Eisenberg. > > > Does the ammunition come in the clip? > > > Mr. Frazier. > > > Normally it does not. The ammunition that we have purchased for this > > > rifle comes in 20-shot boxes. It is possible and I say this as a > > > result of reading advertisements--to buy ammunition for this rifle, > > > and to receive a clip or clips at the same time, but not necessarily > > > part of the same shipment. > > > Mr. Eisenberg. > > > When you ordered C-250, which is now Commission Exhibit 542, did you > > > receive a clip with that rifle? > > > Mr. Frazier. > > > No, sir. > > > Mr. Eisenberg. > > > Would you deduce, therefore, that the clip--that someone wishing to > > > shoot that rifle and use a clip in the rifle would have purchased the > > > clip later? > > > Mr. Frazier. > > > They would have to acquire it from some source, yes. > > > Mr. Eisenberg. > > > Is it commonly available? > > > Mr. Frazier. > > > Yes, sir. > > > Mr. Mccloy. > > > Can you use that rifle without the clip? > > > Mr. Frazier. > > > Yes; you can. > > > Mr. Mccloy. > > > What is the advantage of the clip? > > > Mr. Frazier. > > > It permits repeated firing of the weapon without manually loading one > > > shot at a time. > > > Mr. Mccloy. > > > The only other way you can fire it is by way of manual load? > > > Mr. Frazier. > > > Yes, sir; one shot at a time. > > > Mr. Mccloy. > > > When you say a six-cartridge clip, could that gun have been fired with > > > the clip fully loaded and another one in the chamber? > > > Mr. Frazier. > > > Yes, sir. > > > Mr. Mccloy. > > > The same as the .30-06? > > > Mr. Frazier. > > > Yes, sir; the weapon will hold a maximum of seven.<a target="_blank" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fwww.jfk-assassination.de%2Fwarren%2Fwch%2Fvol3%2Fpage398.php\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGxNqDcj5kknUlCDjp8U4J5vOjSxA';return true;" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; text-underline: single" href="http://www.jfk-assassination.de/warren/wch/vol3/page398.php">http://www.jfk-<wbr>assassination.de/warren/wch/<wbr>vol3/page398.php</a> > > > I'll ask you again.... HOW MUCH WOULD YOU LIKE TO BET??? > > > A lie posted by an "expert" is still a lie..... "Experts".... are > > not infallible.... Simply because a physician may be an excallent > > general pactioner he may not be an "expert" on diseases of the > > lungs. So simply because you cite an "expert" does NOT mean he's > > correct in this case. I ask you again....HOW MUCH WOULD YOU LIKE TO > > BET??</span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> On Aug 9, 10:47 am, Walt <papakochenb...@evertek.net> wrote: >would you like to bet that the Mannlicher Carcano CANNOT be loaded by > simply dropping a cartridge into the firing chamber and closing the > bolt??? In other words it cannot be fired as a "single shot" > rifle. Do you lack the guts to put some money behind your claim??</span></b></pre> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">I'll bet you a box of 20 firecrackers. like these pictured here<br> <a target="_blank" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fwww.alibaba.com%2Fproduct-gs%2F296610655%2FFirecrackers%2Fshowimage.html\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNHrT4uv5hsJdQ5UJZIGaYr-b8sCYg';return true;" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; text-underline: single" href="http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/296610655/Firecrackers/showimage.html"> http://www.alibaba.com/<wbr>product-gs/296610655/<wbr>Firecrackers/showimage.html</a></span></b></p> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">>Pardon me, Raymond.... I'm sure you'll excuse me if I don't believe<br> >that Oswald shot "AT" Walker..... Do you have PROOF that Oswald shot<br> >"AT" Walker??</span></b></p> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">>The evidence revealed a bullet hole in Walker's window so it's obvious<br> >that a bullet was fired into Walker HOUSE.... But WHERE?? was Walker<br> >at the time??</span></b></p> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">>Do you have PROOF that Lee Oswald was the person who fired that<br> >rifle?? Do you have PROOF that he was alone in that alley behind<br> >Walker's House??</span></b></p> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">>When was that bullet fired through walker's Window?? Could it have<br> >been fired during the day and then later that night a firecracker was<br> >set off to sound like a single gunshot??</span></b></p> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">>Walker claimed that he just sat there behind his desk for a time after<br> >the sound of the "shot" so if the shooter was firing a Mannlicher<br> >Carcano he could have fired FIVE more times and INSURED that walker<br> >had been hit if that was his INTENTION. Was the reason that there was<br> >only a single shot because that "shot" was actually a firecracker??</span></b></p> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">>Walt</span></b></p> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">Dear Walt<br> Can you tell me if six "firecrackers" will fit in the SMI clip Lee<br> used in his MC?<br> Maybe that noise some of the witnesses heard and thought it was a<br> firecracker were correct.<br> And do you think Capt. Fritz switched the firecracker that was in the<br> rifle with a Western round?<br> Let us know please.<br> Raymond.</span></b></p> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"><br> ><br> > > > The clips come in brass, blue steel and a parkerized grey finish. They<br> > > > will fit all versions of the Carcano. They will also fit the Scotti<br> > > > and Armaguerra semi-automatic rifles which Italy made all too few of.<br> > > > That’s for another story.<br> ><br> > > > For a brief period in the thirties Italy considered going to a 7.35 mm<br> > > > cartridge, and made some carbines in that calibre. If you find this<br> > > > stuff clipped they will also function in the 6.5 mm as their case<br> > > > bodies are the same diameter. The clips/chargers can be inserted in<br> > > > the magazine from either end.<br> ><br> > > > Of course they can be used over and over, and, remember without the<br> > > > clips/chargers you have a SINGLE SHOT RIFLE.<br> > > > Some Carcanos were converted to 8 x 57 mm Mauser under German<br> > > > supervision at the end of the war.<br> ><br> > > > ---Finn Nielsen<br> ><br> > > ...<br> ><br> > > read more »- Hide quoted text -<br> ><br> > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -<br> ><br> > > - Show quoted text -</span></b></p> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> Show trimmed content </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; 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font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <table class="MsoNormalTable" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" id="table22"> <tr> <td valign="top" style="padding:0in 0in 0in 0in"> <p class="MsoNormal"><b> <span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Arial"><!--[if gte vml 1]><v:shape id="_x0000_s1028" type="#_x0000_t75" alt="" style='width:.75pt;height:.75pt'> <v:imagedata src="" o:href="https://groups.google.com/forum/clear.cache.gif"/> </v:shape><![endif]--></span></b></td> <td valign="top" style="padding:0in 0in 0in 0in"> <p class="MsoNormal"><span class="gfwsc1udpnb"><b> <span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:#222222">Walt</span></b></span><b><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family: Arial"> </span></b></td> <td valign="top" style="padding:0in 0in 0in 0in"> <p class="MsoNormal" align="right" style="text-align:right"><b> <span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Arial"><!--[if gte vml 1]><v:shape id="_x0000_s1027" type="#_x0000_t75" alt="" style='width:.75pt;height:.75pt'> <v:imagedata src="" o:href="https://groups.google.com/forum/clear.cache.gif"/> </v:shape><![endif]--></span></b></p> <p class="MsoNormal" align="right" style="text-align:right"> <span class="gfwsc1udldbgfwsc1udldc"><b> <span title="Monday, August 9, 2010 1:39:24 PM UTC-4" role="menu">8/9/10</span></b></span><b><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family: Arial"> </span></b></td> </tr> </table> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> <span class="gfwsc1udccb"> Other recipients: </span> <span class="gfwsc1udbcb"> </span> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> <span class="gfwsc1udmeb">> I'll bet you a box of 20 firecrackers. like these pictured herehttp://http://www.google.com/url?q=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.alibaba.com%2Fproduct-gs%2F296610655%2FFirecrackers%2Fshowimage.html&sa=D&sntz=1&usg=AFQjCNHrT4uv5hsJdQ5UJZIGaYr-b8sCYg</span> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">- show quoted text -</span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">On Aug 9, 11:50 am, Raymond <Bluerhy...@aol.com> wrote: > On Aug 9, 10:47 am, Walt <papakochenb...@evertek.net> wrote: > > > On Aug 2, 8:24 pm, Walt <papakochenb...@evertek.net> wrote: > > > > On Jul 31, 10:30 am, Raymond <Bluerhy...@aol.com> wrote: > > > > > On Jul 29, 10:51 pm, Walt <papakochenb...@evertek.net> wrote: > > > > > > On Jul 29, 3:21 pm, Raymond <Bluerhy...@aol.com> wrote: > > > > > > > On Jul 29, 2:36 pm, "robcap...@netscape.com" <robcap...@netscape.com> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > On Jul 28, 11:29 pm, Walt <papakochenb...@evertek.net> wrote: > > > > > > > > > On Jul 28, 9:59 am, "robcap...@netscape.com" <robcap...@netscape.com> > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > IF you believe this why do you believe a CLIP WAS INSIDE THE RIFLE > > > > > > > > > Walt?? YOU make NO sense at all > > > > > > > > > THINK!!!.... I said the authorities... THEORIZED.. that Lee Oswald > > > > > > > > fired that MC from the so called "Sniper's Nest". That THEORY requires > > > > > > > > that the clip had to have been ejected from the rifle when the final > > > > > > > > live round in the clip was chambered. > > > > > > > > So far so good. > > > > > > > > > They said Oswald had FOUR > > > > > > > > cartridges, and he fired three of them, and the three spent shells > > > > > > > > were found in the make believe "Sniper's Nest" > > > > > > > > Were they?? Think Walt, think! The OFFICIAL evidence photo shows ONLY > > > > > > > two! > > > > > > > > > IF there were three > > > > > > > > spent rounds found in the SN then that means the bolt was opened AFTER > > > > > > > > the third round was fired. The reflex action of closing of the bolt > > > > > > > > after that third spent shell was ejected would have stripped the last > > > > > > > > cartridge from the clip and the clip would have fallen on the floor at > > > > > > > > that time. > > > > > > > > I agree with this Walt, YOU are the ONE that has argued with me that > > > > > > > the CLIP WAS INSIDE THE RIFLE WHEN IT WAS FOUND! So you are > > > > > > > contridicted yourself here, but you are right here! > > > > > > > > > BUT the clip was NOT on the floor...which means the whole theory is a > > > > > > > > CROCK!!!. > > > > > > > > Perhaps there was NO clip Walt as YOU have said it was a prop gun, > > > > > > > remember? Why do you need a clip for a prop gun? > > > > > > > > > What actually happened is:.... The rifle was prepared as a "throw > > > > > > > > down" gun BEFORE the shooting. The numbskull who prepared the gun and > > > > > > > > hid it beneath those boxes of books wasn't very familiar with the > > > > > > > > rile, and when he attempted to load a single live round into the > > > > > > > > chambered he jammed the bolt in trying, he then inserted the clip in > > > > > > > > the magazine and hid the rifle beneath those boxes of books. > > > > > > > > THERE IS NO EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT THIS THEORY WALT! NONE! There is NO > > > > > > > mention of a clip by anyone, there are NO photographs of the clip > > > > > > > until they took the rifle out of the TSBD 30 minutes later, and there > > > > > > > is NO inventory number for the clip! Sylvia Meagher showed years ago > > > > > > > there is NO mention of the clip anywhere in the 26 volumes of > > > > > > > evidence. > > > > > > > > How do you explain this IF it was inside the rifle when they found it? > > > > > > > If I may. > > > > > > There is no problem with the fact that the weapon found in the TSBD > > > > > > was the murder weapon and there was a clip in it when it was found. > > > > > > This clip issue is really a non issue. The police were amateurs at > > > > > > police work and did many things wrong which caused problems from the > > > > > > start. > > > > > > > According to two Italian immigrant men who served in the Italian army > > > > > > and were familiar with the Carcano 6.5 . I worked with them at > > > > > > Republic Steel and asked them , after the Dallas event, about the > > > > > > operation of the MC: They were surprised to hear that there was a > > > > > > problem with the clip. > > > > > > > According to both of them: > > > > > > > MC ammunition from Italian factories and in factory sealed clips did > > > > > > not fall out of the rifle when the last round was chambered. A soldier > > > > > > carried a cloth sack with extra clips and when the last round was > > > > > > chambered, he had to inject a new clip into the magazine from the top > > > > > > and the old clip then fell out and was not used again. The > > > > > > battlefields wer littered with empty clips. After the war and as > > > > > > original factory loaded clips were used up, old clips were being used > > > > > > with either Norma ammunition or Western ammo such as was used in > > > > > > Dallas. Some clips were even homemade. It was these used and homemade > > > > > > clips that were unreliable and sometimes they fell out on their own or > > > > > > hung up in the magazine well and some performed as they were intended > > > > > > to. > > > > > > > The Mannlicher Carcano clip issue "The clip usually falls out, but in > > > > > > some rifles does not." > > > > > > -- Anthony Marsh > > > > > > > The article, written by Charles H.Yust,Jr. (Some Interesting Clips) > > > > > > appeared in the June 1960 issue of American Rifleman. On P.47, a photo > > > > > > and description of the clip operation appears. As follows: > > > > > > > ITALY- Clip for Model 1891 6.5 mm. Mannlicher Carcano > > > > > > rifle and carbine employing Mannlicher-type magazine. Holds 6 > > > > > > cartridges. Made of brass and tinned, blued.Parkerized and cadmium - > > > > > > plated steel, clip is held in magazine until last round is used, and > > > > > > then PUSHED OUT BOTTOM of magazine when new clip is forced in from > > > > > > top. Clip was also used with Vetterli rifles and carbines altered > > > > > > during World War 1 to 6.5 mm Mannlicher-type magazine. In 1938, when > > > > > > Italy increased caliber of rifle and carbine to 7.35 mm.,same magazine > > > > > > and clip were retained. > > > > > > > The original factory filled clip (SMI) should not fall out > > > > > > when last round is chambered as reported. However, numerous clips were > > > > > > made to accommodate surplus ammo when an original Italian clip was not > > > > > > available. Some were even > > > > > > homemade. The Dallas clip was in the weapon when found. It was empty > > > > > > and a round was found in the chamber. The > > > > > > clip did not fall out. It was an original Italian clip which had been > > > > > > emptied at some point and refilled with the Western ammo. Probably > > > > > > because, by 1963, there were reports of misfires with the Italian > > > > > > ammo. If you are on a mission to kill the most powerful man in the > > > > > > world, I think it wise to use more reliable ammo. > > > > > > > Charles H.Yust,Jr.was an expert on clips and his word was reliable. > > > > > > June 1960 issue of American Rifleman. On P.47, > > > > > > > WALT says: The Mannlicher Carcano CANNOT be used as a rifle unless > > > > > > there is a clip available and used to load the cartridge into the > > > > > > chamber. IT CANNOT BE USED AS A SINGLE SHOT RIFLE!!! > > > > > > > WRONG. It was often used as a single shot weapon when tested. > > > > > > Raymond..... I wonder if you're confident enough to prove me > > > > > "wrong"??? I'll bet you whatever amont of money you'd like to wager > > > > > that you can't take any one of my Mannlicher Carcanos and place a > > > > > cartridge in the chamber and close the bolt and fire the rifle.... > > > > > If you can close the bolt on the cartridge that you place in the > > > > > chamber without using a clip I lose, but if you can't close the bolt > > > > > and fire the rifle then you lose. Now how much would you like to > > > > > bet???? > > > > > (Testimony of Robert A. Frazier FBI Weapons Expert) > > > > > Mr. Eisenberg. > > > > Have you had occasion to purchase ammunition for this rifle? > > > > Mr. Frazier. > > > > Yes, sir. > > > > Mr. Eisenberg. > > > > Does the ammunition come in the clip? > > > > Mr. Frazier. > > > > Normally it does not. The ammunition that we have purchased for this > > > > rifle comes in 20-shot boxes. It is possible and I say this as a > > > > result of reading advertisements--to buy ammunition for this rifle, > > > > and to receive a clip or clips at the same time, but not necessarily > > > > part of the same shipment. > > > > Mr. Eisenberg. > > > > When you ordered C-250, which is now Commission Exhibit 542, did you > > > > receive a clip with that rifle? > > > > Mr. Frazier. > > > > No, sir. > > > > Mr. Eisenberg. > > > > Would you deduce, therefore, that the clip--that someone wishing to > > > > shoot that rifle and use a clip in the rifle would have purchased the > > > > clip later? > > > > Mr. Frazier. > > > > They would have to acquire it from some source, yes. > > > > Mr. Eisenberg. > > > > Is it commonly available? > > > > Mr. Frazier. > > > > Yes, sir. > > > > Mr. Mccloy. > > > > Can you use that rifle without the clip? > > > > Mr. Frazier. > > > > Yes; you can. > > > > Mr. Mccloy. > > > > What is the advantage of the clip? > > > > Mr. Frazier. > > > > It permits repeated firing of the weapon without manually loading one > > > > shot at a time. > > > > Mr. Mccloy. > > > > The only other way you can fire it is by way of manual load? > > > > Mr. Frazier. > > > > Yes, sir; one shot at a time. > > > > Mr. Mccloy. > > > > When you say a six-cartridge clip, could that gun have been fired with > > > > the clip fully loaded and another one in the chamber? > > > > Mr. Frazier. > > > > Yes, sir. > > > > Mr. Mccloy. > > > > The same as the .30-06? > > > > Mr. Frazier. > > > > Yes, sir; the weapon will hold a maximum of seven.<a target="_blank" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fwww.jfk-assassination.de%2Fwarren%2Fwch%2Fvol3%2Fpage398.php\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGxNqDcj5kknUlCDjp8U4J5vOjSxA';return true;" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; text-underline: single" href="http://www.jfk-assassination.de/warren/wch/vol3/page398.php">http://www.jfk-<wbr>assassination.de/warren/wch/<wbr>vol3/page398.php</a> > > > > I'll ask you again.... HOW MUCH WOULD YOU LIKE TO BET??? > > > > A lie posted by an "expert" is still a lie..... "Experts".... are > > > not infallible.... Simply because a physician may be an excallent > > > general pactioner he may not be an "expert" on diseases of the > > > lungs. So simply because you cite an "expert" does NOT mean he's > > > correct in this case. I ask you again....HOW MUCH WOULD YOU LIKE TO > > > BET?? > > On Aug 9, 10:47 am, Walt <papakochenb...@evertek.net> wrote: > > >would you like to bet that the Mannlicher Carcano CANNOT be loaded by > > simply dropping a cartridge into the firing chamber and closing the > > bolt??? In other words it cannot be fired as a "single shot" > > rifle. Do you lack the guts to put some money behind your claim?? ></span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">> I'll bet you a box of 20 firecrackers. like these pictured herehttp://<a target="_blank" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fwww.alibaba.com%2Fproduct-gs%2F296610655%2FFirecrackers%2Fshowimage.html\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNHrT4uv5hsJdQ5UJZIGaYr-b8sCYg';return true;" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; text-underline: single" href="http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/296610655/Firecrackers/showimage.html">www.alibaba.com/<wbr>product-gs/296610655/<wbr>Firecrackers/showimage.html</a></span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">- show quoted text -</span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> > > >Pardon me, Raymond.... I'm sure you'll excuse me if I don't believe > >that Oswald shot "AT" Walker..... Do you have PROOF that Oswald shot > >"AT" Walker?? > >The evidence revealed a bullet hole in Walker's window so it's obvious > >that a bullet was fired into Walker HOUSE.... But WHERE?? was Walker > >at the time?? > >Do you have PROOF that Lee Oswald was the person who fired that > >rifle?? Do you have PROOF that he was alone in that alley behind > >Walker's House?? > >When was that bullet fired through walker's Window?? Could it have > >been fired during the day and then later that night a firecracker was > >set off to sound like a single gunshot?? > >Walker claimed that he just sat there behind his desk for a time after > >the sound of the "shot" so if the shooter was firing a Mannlicher > >Carcano he could have fired FIVE more times and INSURED that walker > >had been hit if that was his INTENTION. Was the reason that there was > >only a single shot because that "shot" was actually a firecracker?? > >Walt > > Dear Walt > Can you tell me if six "firecrackers" will fit in the SMI clip Lee > used in his MC? > Maybe that noise some of the witnesses heard and thought it was a > firecracker were correct. > And do you think Capt. Fritz switched the firecracker that was in the > rifle with a Western round? > Let us know please. > Raymond.</span></b></pre> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">It appears that you do lack the guts to bet any money on your claim<br> that the MC can be fired as a "single shot" rifle. You may not be<br> smart enough to know that your evasion of the issue is tantamount to<br> admitting that you KNOW the rifle cannot be fired as a single shot<br> rifle but lack the guts to admit it openly.</span></b></p> <p><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"><br> ><br> > > > > The clips come in brass, blue steel and a parkerized grey finish. They<br> > > > > will fit all versions of the Carcano. They will also fit the Scotti<br> > > > > and Armaguerra semi-automatic rifles which Italy made all too few of.<br> > > > > That’s for another story.<br> ><br> > > > > For a brief period in the thirties Italy considered going to a 7.35 mm<br> > > > > cartridge, and made some carbines in that calibre. If you find this<br> > > > > stuff clipped they will also function in the 6.5 mm as their case<br> > > > > bodies are the same diameter. The clips/chargers can be inserted in<br> > > > > the magazine from either end.<br> ><br> > > > > Of course they can be used over and over, and, remember without the<br> > > > > clips/chargers you have a SINGLE SHOT RIFLE.<br> > > > > Some Carcanos were converted to 8 x 57 mm Mauser under German<br> > > > > supervision at the end of the war.<br> ><br> > > > > ---Finn Nielsen<br> ><br> > > > ...<br> ><br> > > > read more »- Hide quoted text -<br> ><br> > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -<br> ><br> > > > - Show quoted text -</span></b></p> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> Show trimmed content </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; 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font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <table class="MsoNormalTable" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" id="table23"> <tr> <td valign="top" style="padding:0in 0in 0in 0in"> <p class="MsoNormal"><b> <span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Arial"><!--[if gte vml 1]><v:shape id="_x0000_s1026" type="#_x0000_t75" alt="" style='width:.75pt;height:.75pt'> <v:imagedata src="" o:href="https://groups.google.com/forum/clear.cache.gif"/> </v:shape><![endif]--></span></b></td> <td valign="top" style="padding:0in 0in 0in 0in"> <p class="MsoNormal"><span class="gfwsc1udpnb"><b> <span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:#222222">jamesbond...@yahoo.com</span></b></span><b><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family: Arial"> </span></b></td> <td valign="top" style="padding:0in 0in 0in 0in"> <p class="MsoNormal" align="right" style="text-align:right"><b> <span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Arial"><!--[if gte vml 1]><v:shape id="_x0000_s1025" type="#_x0000_t75" alt="" style='width:.75pt;height:.75pt'> <v:imagedata src="" o:href="https://groups.google.com/forum/clear.cache.gif"/> </v:shape><![endif]--></span></b></p> <p class="MsoNormal" align="right" style="text-align:right"> <span class="gfwsc1udldbgfwsc1udldc"><b> <span title="Sunday, April 7, 2013 5:50:18 AM UTC-4" role="menu">Apr 7</span></b></span><b><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family: Arial"> </span></b></td> </tr> </table> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> <span class="gfwsc1udccb"> Other recipients: </span> <span class="gfwsc1udbcb"> </span> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> <span class="gfwsc1udmeb">Walt, I believe you. Please contact me ASAP: paratr...@yahoo.com Since you appear to actually own a M-C....please ponder the following: http://www.google.com/url?q=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.oocities.org%2Fwhiskey99a%2Fcarcano.html&sa=D&sntz=1&usg=AFQjCNGEfk0Q</span> </span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none">Walt, I believe you. <br> Please contact me ASAP: <a target="_blank" onmousedown="this.href='javascript:';return true;" gdf-obfuscated-mailto="wu_7vN08V6cJ" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; text-underline: single" href="javascript:">paratr...@yahoo.com</a> <br> Since you appear to actually own a M-C....please ponder the following: <br> <a target="_blank" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fwww.oocities.org%2Fwhiskey99a%2Fcarcano.html\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGEfk0Q-A58qObXIJjGq27sClq9uw';return true;" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; text-underline: single" href="http://www.oocities.org/whiskey99a/carcano.html">www.oocities.org/whiskey99a/<wbr>carcano.html</a> <br> "Something else to consider with regard to the Mannlicher Carcano clip is the fact that it is designed to hold 6 bullets. Since only 3 spent shells and 1 live round were apparently found at the scene it is logical to assume that if there was a clip it only contained 4 bullets at the time the shooting occurred. This is problematic because when a Carcano clip is underloaded the bullets have a strong tendency to fall over making it impossible to load and shoot them properly." <br> MUST ONE HAVE 6 CARTRIDGES IN-THE-CLIP, IN-THE-WELL TO CYCLE THE M-C BOLT?</span></b></pre> <pre style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Courier New; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt"><b><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: Arial; display: none"> Show trimmed content </span></b></pre> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Arial"> </span></p> </span></plaintext> <p><br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> Sign in<br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> Groups <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> 2 of 99+ <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> alt.assassination.jfk.uncensored › <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> The Mannlicher Carcano clip issue <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> 19 posts by 4 authors<br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> Raymond <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> 7/26/10 <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> The Mannlicher Carcano clip issue<br> The article, written by Charles H.Yust,Jr. (Some Interesting Clips)<br> appeared in the June 1960 issue of American Rifleman. On P.47, a photo<br> and description of the clip operation appears. As follows:<br> <br> ITALY- Clip for Model 1891 6.5 mm. Mannlicher Carcano<br> rifle and carbine employing Mannlicher-type magazine. Holds 6<br> cartridges. Made of brass and tinned, blued.Parkerized and cadmium -<br> plated steel, clip is held in magazine until last round is used, and<br> then PUSHED OUT BOTTOM of magazine when new clip is forced in from<br> top. Clip was also used with Vetterli rifles and carbines altered<br> during World War 1 to 6.5 mm Mannlicher-type magazine. In 1938, when<br> Italy increased caliber of rifle and carbine to 7.35 mm.,same magazine<br> and clip were retained.<br> <br> The original factory filled clip (SMI) should not fall out<br> when last round is chambered as reported. However, numerous clips were<br> made to accommodate surplus ammo when an original Italian clip was not<br> available. Some were even homemade. The Dallas clip was in the weapon<br> when found. It was empty and a round was found in the chamber. The<br> clip did not fall out. It was an original Italian clip which had been<br> emptied at some point and refilled with the Western ammo. Probably<br> because, by 1963, there were reports of misfires with the Italian<br> ammo. If you are on a mission to kill the most powerful man in the<br> world, I think it wise to use more reliable ammo.<br> <br> ------------------------------<br> There are various photographs of one of the police detectives carrying<br> the rifle out the front door of the book building. From several<br> views, one can see an empty clip working its way down out of the clip<br> exit. After firing, it was gravity that made it drop out. Sometimes<br> It does, sometimes it does not. In fact, opne of the foremost<br> collectors of military rifle clips (named Uust, I think) stated in the<br> American rifleman that the empty Mannlicher-Carcano clip did not come<br> out until a fresh<br> loaded clip was introduced into the magazine from the top.<br> <br> It has been my experience, however, that this is only sometimes<br> the case. Sometimes they drop out on their own; sometimes they do<br> not.<br> <br> As has been pointed out by many diligent researchers, the ''clip<br> issue'' is a ''non-issue.''<br> John in VA<br> ---------------<br> P.S. "The rifle (CE 139)was test-fired by all panel members using 6.5<br> millimeter caliber ammunition of Western cartridge Co. manufacture.<br> Two bullets were test-fired into a horizontal water recovery tank.<br> Further tests were conducted by loading four cartridges into the CE<br> 375 cartridge clip and inserting it into the magazine of the rifle.<br> The cartridges were worked through the rifle's mechanism and ejected<br> without being fired. WHEN THE LAST CARTRIDGE WAS CHAMBERED, THE<br> CARTRIDGE CLIP REMAINED IN THE MAGAZINE INSTEAD OF FALLING OUT AS IT<br> WAS DESIGNED TO DO."<br> <br> Even those testing the rifle expected the clip to fall out since,<br> by the time of testing , the word was out that the clip was supposed<br> to fall out of the magazine after the last round was chambered.<br> <br> This is the HSCA Vol. II, pg 365 HSCA Report of the Firearms<br> Panel From "Findings and Conclusions of the Firearms Panel<br> Concerning the Kennedy Assassination"<br> <br> Kennedy Shooting Evidence examined<br> (Page 365)<br> -------------------------<br> The clip usually falls out, but in some rifles does not.<br> -- Anthony Marsh<br> --------------------------------------------<br> More on the Carcano:<br> Let us go through the steps required to use your rifle. Firstly the<br> ammunition you have available is either Norma 6.5 Carcano or you have<br> skillfully shortened some 6.5 M-S (Mannlicher-Schoenauer) cases 2mm so<br> they are identical to the factory Norma stuff. Fill your charger/clip<br> (NOT stripper clip, please) with six cartridges. Lift and draw the<br> bolt fully to the rear. You will see the gaping opening of the<br> magazine well looking up at you. Insert your clip into the opening<br> downward until it locks into place. Push the bolt forward and turn it<br> down. This will chamber a cartridge and the firearm is ready to fire.<br> Your rifle may have a long trigger pull but it will probably be a two<br> stage trigger, most European military rifles have that. It means that<br> when you squeeze your trigger it will reach a point where there is<br> resistance to the pressure. That is you second stage. Squeezing a<br> little more will fire the rifle. The rifle fires! Recoil is minimal.<br> You can smell the burning powder and life is good. Lift your bolt<br> handle and pull it gently/slowly to the rear. Your fired cartridge<br> case will emerge from the chamber and you pluck it out of the action<br> before it gets lost. Now is the time to have a look at it and see if<br> there is anything to be concerned about. Repeat the above procedures<br> and fire all six cartridges in your clip/charger. When the last<br> cartridge is chambered your clip will emerge, and MIGHT even drop, out<br> of the magazine. You are ready to reload.<br> <br> The clips come in brass, blue steel and a parkerized grey finish. They<br> will fit all versions of the Carcano. They will also fit the Scotti<br> and Armaguerra semi-automatic rifles which Italy made all too few of.<br> That’s for another story.<br> <br> For a brief period in the thirties Italy considered going to a 7.35 mm<br> cartridge, and made some carbines in that calibre. If you find this<br> stuff clipped they will also function in the 6.5 mm as their case<br> bodies are the same diameter. The clips/chargers can be inserted in<br> the magazine from either end.<br> <br> Of course they can be used over and over, and, remember without the<br> clips/chargers you have a single shot rifle!<br> <br> Some Carcanos were converted to 8 x 57 mm Mauser under German<br> supervision at the end of the war. These are definitely ‘no firing’<br> statement rifles for the reasons mentioned earlier.<br> <br> I don’t like to fire them for the same reason I don’t like root-canal<br> work. They are just plain awful noise and recoil-wise with the full<br> military loads. No fun here!<br> <br> You are advised to play with these using mild cast bullet loads. They<br> can be made to shoot very well with these projectiles and you don’t<br> come away from the bench a gibbering shell-shocked shooter. These<br> rifles also used a Carcano type clip/charger, but five shot only as<br> the body diameter of the eight mil is larger than the 6.5/7.35<br> cartridges. Good luck finding the clips. I believe there are some in<br> Italy, but I have only seen photos of them.<br> <br> http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting/mannlichercarcano/index.asp<br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> Walt <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> 7/26/10 <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> - show quoted text -<br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> The Mannlicher Carcano CANNOT be used as a rifle unless there is a<br> clip available and used to load the cartridge into the chamber. IT<br> CANNOT BE USED AS A SINGLE SHOT RIFLE!!!<br> <br> The clip was DESIGNED to FALL OUT of the bottom of the rifle when the<br> last round is stripped from the clip by the forward stroke of the bolt<br> when chambering that last cartridge. When that last cartridge is<br> stripped from the clip there is NOTHING to hold the clip in the rifle<br> and it drops out. Under battlefield conditions when the ejection port<br> may get dirt or mud in it, which would prevent the light weight clip<br> from dropping out, the empty clip can then easily be pushed out of the<br> bottom of the rifle by inserting a fresh full clip of six<br> cartridges.<br> <br> The FACT that the clip was in the rifle when it was found BURIED and<br> HIDDEN beneath boxes of books is a rock solid indicator that the rifle<br> was prepared as a "throw down" gun BEFORE the shooting. It was<br> prepared as a throw down gun and hidden beneath those boxes of books<br> BEFORE the shooting by someone who wasn't totally famliar with the<br> rifle. He apparently did not know that the rifle CANNOT be loaded as a<br> single shot rifle, and attempted to load the live round into the<br> chamber by hand, and the close the bolt, only to jamb the bolt in the<br> manner it is seen in the photos of the rifle being lifted from the<br> place he had hid it.<br> <br> <br> ><br> > Some Carcanos were converted to 8 x 57 mm Mauser under German<br> > supervision at the end of the war. These are definitely ‘no firing’<br> > statement rifles for the reasons mentioned earlier.<br> ><br> > I don’t like to fire them for the same reason I don’t like root-canal<br> > work. They are just plain awful noise and recoil-wise with the full<br> > military loads. No fun here!<br> ><br> > You are advised to play with these using mild cast bullet loads. They<br> > can be made to shoot very well with these projectiles and you don’t<br> > come away from the bench a gibbering shell-shocked shooter. These<br> > rifles also used a Carcano type clip/charger, but five shot only as<br> > the body diameter of the eight mil is larger than the 6.5/7.35<br> > cartridges. Good luck finding the clips. I believe there are some in<br> > Italy, but I have only seen photos of them.<br> ><br> > http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting/mannlichercarcano/index.asp<br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> Raymond <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> 7/26/10 <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> - show quoted text -<br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> CBS News, which claimed to "duplicate the conditions of the actual<br> assassination" in its filmed rifle test in 1967:<br> <br> The cartridge clip was removed from CE-139 by Lieutenant Day of the<br> Dallas Police Department on November 22, 1963 at the crime laboratory<br> for the police department. Shouldn't a clip automatically fall out<br> once the last cartridge has fed into the chamber?<br> <br> Mr. Lutz. This rifle is designed to incorporate that feature so that<br> the last cartridge is stripped out of the clip, then that allows the<br> clip itself to fall or to drop from the opening that you see in the<br> bottom of the box magazine. However, in many cases, and in this<br> particular case, where we functioned the rifle, fed cartridges through<br> it, we found this clip to stay in the rifle after the last round had<br> been stripped and fed into the chamber. Because the lips or the edges<br> of the clip many times will open up, they will spring against the<br> walls on the inside of the box magazine and it will hang up in that<br> areaa [sic], and even though it is supposed to drop out, many times it<br> will hang up in the box area.11<br> <br> That explanation seems reasonable enough. BUT IT IS NOT. It is true<br> that the clip must be deformed to have any chance of getting as stuck<br> as this one. But once bent, it stays bent. Commission Exhibits (CEs)<br> 574 and 575 are photographs of the alleged clip in its normal, unbent<br> condition. And five years after the HSCA reported the clip deformed,<br> Life magazine photographer Michael O'Neill photographed it in normal<br> condition for Life's November 1983 issue.12<br> <br> According to reporter Dan Rather, "Eleven volunteer marksmen took<br> turns firing clips of three bullets each at the moving target." They<br> fired a total of thirty-seven three-round series, seventeen of which<br> resulted in unfired bullets due to "trouble with the rifle." Clip<br> problems or not, all data from those seventeen troubled series was<br> disregarded by CBS analysts. It was the other series of shots,<br> however, with properly emptied and ejected clips, deemed worthy of<br> analysis by CBS, that should have been disqualified. In the CBS film,<br> clips can be seen flying out of the gun so fast as to be a blur.14 If<br> a test clip is not bent, or ejects, or moves at all, Oswald's alleged<br> feat is not duplicated, invalidating the test. The HSCA firearms panel<br> seemed not to be interested in this phenomenon, since it did not test<br> the clip under firing conditions. Congressman Edgar learned about the<br> defect from Mr. Lutz when he asked for details about their firing<br> test:<br> <br> Mr. Lutz. This was a single cartridge being inserted into the chamber<br> and firing into a cotton waste recovery box...backing away from the<br> box, a foot or two, and pointing the muzzle into the box and then<br> firing into it, in order to recover the projectile.<br> ******Mr. Edgar. But you weren't firing with clip -- using the clip,<br> were you?<br> <br> ******Mr. Lutz. No sir; I did not.<br> <br> **** Mr. Edgar. Did anyone on the panel fire with the clip in?<br> <br> ***** Mr. Lutz. I do not believe so; no, sir.<br> <br> Mr. Edgar. What was the reason for that?<br> <br> Mr. Lutz. There were no particular markings that we were able to<br> identify as having come from the clip, nor were we checking for time<br> firing or sequential firing in any way in that respect.15<br> <br> Under the heading "Findings and Conclusions of the Firearms Panel<br> Concerning the Kennedy Assassination," we learn that, "Two bullets<br> <br> <br> were test-fired into a horizontal water recovery tank. Further tests<br> <br> were conducted by loading four cartridges into the CE 375 [sic]<br> <br> cartridge clip and inserting it into the magazine of the rifle. The<br> cartridges were worked through the rifle's mechanism and ejected<br> <br> without being fired. When the last cartridge was chambered, the<br> cartridge clip remained in the magazine instead of falling out as it<br> is designed to do."16 Given Mr. Lutz's "the clip many times will open<br> up" statement, this result demands further explanation.<br> "Many times will" also means "many times won't." Metal expands when<br> heated and can alter its shape. But during the HSCA tests of the<br> loading mechanism, the rifle should have been cool. In addition, CE<br> 541 (3), a photograph of the clip stuck in the magazine reproduced on<br> page 83 of the Warren Report, shows it in a cool rifle. Surely the<br> rifle had not been fired for some time before that photography<br> session. Is Lutz suggesting that the clip's sides spring out when cool<br> and then return to a normal shape in the heat of firing? If such a<br> violation of the laws of physics occurs with this rifle and clip, how<br> then could the rifle have "contained a clip" when found?<br> <br> ---- PHYSICAL EVIDENCE / The Rifle<br> <br> <br> <br> - show quoted text -<br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> > >http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting/mannlichercarcano/index.asp- Hide quoted text -<br> ><br> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -<br> ><br> > - Show quoted text -<br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> Walt <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> 7/26/10 <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> - show quoted text -<br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> > cartridges were worked through the rifle's mechanism and ...<br> <br> Raymond you can believe whoever and whatever you choose to<br> believe.....But keep in mind that those who claim the clip does not<br> fall out of the rifle when the last cartridge is chambered have some<br> ulterior motive telling that lie. I guarantee you that the clip DOES<br> fall out of the rifle when the last cartridge is chambered. Since<br> this is a FACT that clip should have been found in the so called<br> "Sniper's Nest" where according to the Warren Commission's THEORY<br> Oswald chambered that last round. ( What a CROCK!!!)<br> <br> <br> ><br> > read more »- Hide quoted text -<br> <br> <br> ><br> > - Show quoted text -<br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> robcap...@netscape.com <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> 7/28/10 <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> On Jul 26, 10:37 pm, Walt <papakochenb...@evertek.net> wrote:<br> > On Jul 26, 7:06 pm, Raymond <Bluerhy...@aol.com> wrote:<br> <br> <br> <br> - show quoted text -<br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> IF you believe this why do you believe a CLIP WAS INSIDE THE RIFLE<br> Walt?? YOU make NO sense at all!<br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> Walt <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> 7/28/10 <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> On Jul 28, 9:59 am, "robcap...@netscape.com" <robcap...@netscape.com><br> wrote:<br> <br> - show quoted text -<br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> THINK!!!.... I said the authorities... THEORIZED.. that Lee Oswald<br> fired that MC from the so called "Sniper's Nest". That THEORY requires<br> that the clip had to have been ejected from the rifle when the final<br> live round in the clip was chambered. They said Oswald had FOUR<br> cartridges, and he fired three of them, and the three spent shells<br> were found in the make believe "Sniper's Nest" IF there were three<br> spent rounds found in the SN then that means the bolt was opened AFTER<br> the third round was fired. The reflex action of closing of the bolt<br> after that third spent shell was ejected would have stripped the last<br> cartridge from the clip and the clip would have fallen on the floor at<br> that time.<br> <br> BUT the clip was NOT on the floor...which means the whole theory is a<br> CROCK!!!.<br> <br> What actually happened is:.... The rifle was prepared as a "throw<br> down" gun BEFORE the shooting. The numbskull who prepared the gun and<br> hid it beneath those boxes of books wasn't very familiar with the<br> rile, and when he attempted to load a single live round into the<br> chambered he jammed the bolt in trying, he then inserted the clip in<br> the magazine and hid the rifle beneath those boxes of books.<br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> Hide quoted text -<br> ><br> > - Show quoted text -<br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> robcap...@netscape.com <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> 7/29/10 <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> On Jul 28, 11:29 pm, Walt <papakochenb...@evertek.net> wrote:<br> > On Jul 28, 9:59 am, "robcap...@netscape.com" <robcap...@netscape.com><br> > wrote:<br> <br> <br> > > IF you believe this why do you believe a CLIP WAS INSIDE THE RIFLE<br> > > Walt?? YOU make NO sense at all<br> ><br> > THINK!!!.... I said the authorities... THEORIZED.. that Lee Oswald<br> > fired that MC from the so called "Sniper's Nest". That THEORY requires<br> > that the clip had to have been ejected from the rifle when the final<br> > live round in the clip was chambered. <br> <br> So far so good.<br> <br> <br> > They said Oswald had FOUR<br> > cartridges, and he fired three of them, and the three spent shells<br> > were found in the make believe "Sniper's Nest" <br> <br> Were they?? Think Walt, think! The OFFICIAL evidence photo shows ONLY<br> two!<br> <br> <br> > IF there were three<br> > spent rounds found in the SN then that means the bolt was opened AFTER<br> > the third round was fired. The reflex action of closing of the bolt<br> > after that third spent shell was ejected would have stripped the last<br> > cartridge from the clip and the clip would have fallen on the floor at<br> > that time.<br> <br> I agree with this Walt, YOU are the ONE that has argued with me that<br> the CLIP WAS INSIDE THE RIFLE WHEN IT WAS FOUND! So you are<br> contridicted yourself here, but you are right here!<br> <br> <br> > BUT the clip was NOT on the floor...which means the whole theory is a<br> > CROCK!!!.<br> <br> Perhaps there was NO clip Walt as YOU have said it was a prop gun,<br> remember? Why do you need a clip for a prop gun?<br> <br> <br> > What actually happened is:.... The rifle was prepared as a "throw<br> > down" gun BEFORE the shooting. The numbskull who prepared the gun and<br> > hid it beneath those boxes of books wasn't very familiar with the<br> > rile, and when he attempted to load a single live round into the<br> > chambered he jammed the bolt in trying, he then inserted the clip in<br> > the magazine and hid the rifle beneath those boxes of books.<br> <br> THERE IS NO EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT THIS THEORY WALT! NONE! There is NO<br> mention of a clip by anyone, there are NO photographs of the clip<br> until they took the rifle out of the TSBD 30 minutes later, and there<br> is NO inventory number for the clip! Sylvia Meagher showed years ago<br> there is NO mention of the clip anywhere in the 26 volumes of<br> evidence.<br> <br> How do you explain this IF it was inside the rifle when they found it?<br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> Raymond <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> 7/29/10 <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> On Jul 29, 2:36 pm, "robcap...@netscape.com" <robcap...@netscape.com><br> wrote:<br> <br> - show quoted text -<br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> If I may.<br> There is no problem with the fact that the weapon found in the TSBD<br> was the murder weapon and there was a clip in it when it was found.<br> This clip issue is really a non issue. The police were amateurs at<br> police work and did many things wrong which caused problems from the<br> start.<br> <br> According to two Italian immigrant men who served in the Italian army<br> and were familiar with the Carcano 6.5 . I worked with them at<br> Republic Steel and asked them , after the Dallas event, about the<br> operation of the MC: They were surprised to hear that there was a<br> problem with the clip.<br> <br> According to both of them:<br> <br> MC ammunition from Italian factories and in factory sealed clips did<br> not fall out of the rifle when the last round was chambered. A soldier<br> carried a cloth sack with extra clips and when the last round was<br> chambered, he had to inject a new clip into the magazine from the top<br> and the old clip then fell out and was not used again. The<br> battlefields wer littered with empty clips. After the war and as<br> original factory loaded clips were used up, old clips were being used<br> with either Norma ammunition or Western ammo such as was used in<br> Dallas. Some clips were even homemade. It was these used and homemade<br> clips that were unreliable and sometimes they fell out on their own or<br> hung up in the magazine well and some performed as they were intended<br> to.<br> <br> The Mannlicher Carcano clip issue "The clip usually falls out, but in<br> <br> <br> some rifles does not."<br> -- Anthony Marsh<br> <br> The article, written by Charles H.Yust,Jr. (Some Interesting Clips)<br> <br> <br> appeared in the June 1960 issue of American Rifleman. On P.47, a photo<br> and description of the clip operation appears. As follows:<br> <br> <br> ITALY- Clip for Model 1891 6.5 mm. Mannlicher Carcano<br> rifle and carbine employing Mannlicher-type magazine. Holds 6<br> cartridges. Made of brass and tinned, blued.Parkerized and cadmium -<br> plated steel, clip is held in magazine until last round is used, and<br> then PUSHED OUT BOTTOM of magazine when new clip is forced in from<br> top. Clip was also used with Vetterli rifles and carbines altered<br> during World War 1 to 6.5 mm Mannlicher-type magazine. In 1938, when<br> Italy increased caliber of rifle and carbine to 7.35 mm.,same magazine<br> and clip were retained.<br> <br> <br> The original factory filled clip (SMI) should not fall out<br> when last round is chambered as reported. However, numerous clips were<br> made to accommodate surplus ammo when an original Italian clip was not<br> available. Some were even<br> homemade. The Dallas clip was in the weapon when found. It was empty<br> and a round was found in the chamber. The<br> clip did not fall out. It was an original Italian clip which had been<br> emptied at some point and refilled with the Western ammo. Probably<br> because, by 1963, there were reports of misfires with the Italian<br> ammo. If you are on a mission to kill the most powerful man in the<br> world, I think it wise to use more reliable ammo.<br> <br> Charles H.Yust,Jr.was an expert on clips and his word was reliable.<br> <br> <br> June 1960 issue of American Rifleman. On P.47,<br> <br> WALT says: The Mannlicher Carcano CANNOT be used as a rifle unless<br> <br> <br> there is a clip available and used to load the cartridge into the<br> chamber. IT CANNOT BE USED AS A SINGLE SHOT RIFLE!!!<br> <br> WRONG. It was often used as a single shot weapon when tested. .The<br> clips/chargers can be inserted in the magazine from either end and<br> <br> <br> they can be used over and over, and, remember without the clips/<br> chargers you have a single shot rifle!<br> <br> However, when the last cartridge is chambered your clip may emerge,<br> and MIGHT even drop, out of the magazine and it may not. You are then<br> ready to reload. Reloaded clips are not reliable to perform as Charles<br> H.Yust,Jr described the original factory loaded clips.<br> <br> The HSCA firearms panel seemed not to be interested in this<br> phenomenon, since it did not test the clip under firing conditions.<br> Congressman Edgar learned about the defect from Mr. Lutz when he asked<br> for details about their firing test:<br> <br> <br> Mr. Lutz. This was a single cartridge being inserted into the chamber<br> and firing into a cotton waste recovery box...backing away from the<br> box, a foot or two, and pointing the muzzle into the box and then<br> firing into it, in order to recover the<br> projectile. ******Mr. Edgar. But you weren't firing with clip -- using<br> the clip, were you?<br> <br> <br> ******Mr. Lutz. No sir; I did not.<br> <br> <br> **** Mr. Edgar. Did anyone on the panel fire with the clip in?<br> <br> <br> ***** Mr. Lutz. I do not believe so; no, sir.<br> <br> <br> Mr. Edgar. What was the reason for that?<br> <br> <br> Mr. Lutz. There were no particular markings that we were able to<br> identify as having come from the clip, nor were we checking for time<br> firing or sequential firing in any way in that respect.<br> <br> Under the heading "Findings and Conclusions of the Firearms Panel<br> <br> <br> Concerning the Kennedy Assassination," we learn that, "Two bullets<br> were test-fired into a horizontal water recovery tank. Further tests<br> were conducted by loading four cartridges into the CE 375 [sic]<br> cartridge clip and inserting it into the magazine of the rifle. The<br> <br> <br> cartridges were worked through the rifle's mechanism and ejected<br> without being fired. When the last cartridge was chambered, the<br> cartridge clip remained in the magazine instead of falling out as it<br> is designed to do."16 Given Mr. Lutz's "the clip many times will open<br> up" statement, this result demands further explanation.<br> <br> <br> "Many times will" also means "many times won't." Metal expands when<br> heated and can alter its shape. But during the HSCA tests of the<br> loading mechanism, the rifle should have been cool. In addition, CE<br> 541 (3), a photograph of the clip stuck in the magazine reproduced on<br> page 83 of the Warren Report, shows it in a cool rifle. Surely the<br> rifle had not been fired for some time before that photography<br> session. Is Lutz suggesting that the clip's sides spring out when<br> cool<br> and then return to a normal shape in the heat of firing? If such a<br> violation of the laws of physics occurs with this rifle and clip, how<br> then could the rifle have "contained a clip" when found?<br> <br> <br> ---- PHYSICAL EVIDENCE / The Rifle<br> <br> That said, there is definite suspicion that the weapon used was not<br> the one LHO bought in the spring of 1963 to kill Walker with. It is<br> suspected that a second rifle was purchased and the serial number was<br> changed to C-2766 to frame the rabbit, Oswald.<br> <br> That rifle, now in the National Archives, has had the serial number<br> changed to C-2766 in order to frame the rabbit. Someday someone will<br> prove that point. We are talking about two different weapons. Ask any<br> good gunsmith how easy that would be to change a serial number.<br> <br> A strong argument can be made that the murder weapon was not the<br> weapon Lee bought in March to kill Gen. Walker with. The strange thing<br> is that they both had the same serial number ;which was the thing that<br> connected LHO to ownership. But, anyone familiar with the weapon knows<br> that the serial number is on the rear end of the barrel where the<br> barrel screws into the receiver. It can be removed in minutes and the<br> serial number can be changed very easily. Ask any good gunsmith.<br> <br> From Martha Moyer, well known to the JFK assassination community.:<br> <br> "Do you know how easy it is to change a SN on a rifle? I do!!! About<br> six months ago I considered having the SN on my MC changed to read<br> C2766. The gunsmith told me "no problem - in fact, quite simple" (Oh,<br> by the way, my MC is a 36") If I wanted to frame somebody - I would<br> get the serial number of their gun - registered to them - find a<br> duplicate and change to their SN. I would then leave it at the scene<br> of the crime"<br> <br> Martha Moyer<br> <br> Numerous weapons experts have compared the photos taken by Marina with<br> photos of the murder weapon and agree that they are not the same<br> weapon.<br> <br> The Second Carcano<br> http://jfkresearch.freehomepage.com/c2766.html<br> <br> We must hopefully use absolute evidence when we can, evidence that<br> could be used in a courtroom and there is really very little that<br> could be used against Oswald. Working in the building where the shots<br> came from is not enough and there is doubt that three shots even came<br> from the building. It was the serial number that connected Oswald to<br> the murder weapon<br> <br> There was no missed shot....?<br> <br> Despite the claims that there were three shots from the TSBD fired at<br> the JFK limousine.... prove it... Where is the physical evidence? The<br> three shell casings found under the sixth floor window? That won't do.<br> Even the Warren Wizards weren't sure.<br> SEE Page 110 and 111 of the Report to the President NUMBER OF SHOTS<br> <br> "The consensus among the witnesses at the scene was that three shots<br> were fired.332 However, some heard only two shots,333 while others<br> testified that they heard four and perhaps as many as five or six<br> shots.334 The difficulty of accurate perception of the sound of<br> gunshots required careful scrutiny of all of this testimony regarding<br> the number of shots. The firing of a bullet causes a number of noises:<br> the muzzle blast, caused by the smashing of the hot gases which<br> propel<br> the bullet into the relatively stable air at the gun's muzzle; the<br> noise of the bullet, caused by the shock wave built up ahead of the<br> bullet's nose as it travels through the air; and the noise caused by<br> the impact of the bullet on its target.335 Each noise can be quite<br> sharp and may be perceived as a separate shot. The tall buildings in<br> the area might have further distorted the sound.<br> <br> The physical and other evidence examined by the Commission compels the<br> conclusion that AT LEAST TWO SHOTS WERE FIRED As discussed previously,<br> the nearly whole bullet discovered at Parkland Hospital and the two<br> larger fragments found in the Presidential automobile, which were<br> identified as coming from the assassination rifle, came from at least<br> two separate bullets and possibly from three.336 The most convincing<br> evidence relating to the number of shots was provided by the presence<br> on the sixth floor of three spent cartridges which were demonstrated<br> to have been fired by the same rifle that fired the bullets which<br> caused the wounds. It is POSSIBLE that the assassin carried an EMPTY<br> SHELL in the rifle and fired only two shots, with the witnesses<br> hearing multiple noises made by the same shot. Soon after the<br> three ....Cont'd<br> http://www.jfk-assassination.de/warren/wcr/page110.php<br> <br> Even Zapruder was not sure of the shot sequence:<br> Mr. Liebeler.<br> Let me go back now for just a moment and ask you how many shots you<br> heard altogether.<br> <br> Mr. Zapruder.<br> I thought I heard two, it could be three, because to my estimation I<br> thought he was hit on the second--I really don't know. The whole thing<br> that has been transpiring--it was very upsetting and as you see I got<br> a little better all the time and this came up again and it to me<br> looked like the second shot, but I don't know. I never even heard a<br> third shot.<br> <br> And Tague thought the shots came from up on the hill:<br> Mr. Tague.<br> Well, I was standing there watching, and really I was watching to try<br> to distinguish the President and his car. About this time I heard what<br> sounded like a firecracker. Well, a very loud firecracker. It<br> certainly didn't sound like a rifle shot. It was more of a loud<br> cannon- type sound. I looked around to see who was throwing<br> firecrackers or what was going on and I turned my head away from the<br> motorcade and, of course, two more shots.<br> <br> And I ducked behind the post when I realized somebody was shooting<br> after the third shot. After the third shot, I ducked behind the bridge<br> abutment and was there for a second, and I glanced out and Just as I<br> looked out, the car following the President's car, the one with the<br> Secret Service men, was just flying past at that time.<br> <br> Summing up. One shot missed the car completely and there is no record<br> of recovering any of its remains. One shot allegedly passed through<br> Kennedy and Connally and magically remained near pristine and ended up<br> at Parkland Hospital.<br> <br> This bullet weighed 161 grains before it was fired at the motorcade.<br> When recovered it weighed 158.6 grains which means that very little<br> was lost in its destructive journey.<br> <br> A fragment weighing 0.5 grains was recovered from Connally's arm.<br> Audrey Bell, the operating nurse, stated that there were four or five<br> fragments "anywhere from three to four millimeters in length and a<br> couple of millimeters wide. " These fragments disappeared at the<br> autopsy.<br> <br> In addition, what happened to the fragment found in Connally's leg<br> wound? Also, there was a fragment in the governor's chest that was<br> never recovered. He died with fragments still in his body that weighed<br> more that the alleged two to three missing grains from C-399 that was<br> described as near pristine. And the Warrens say , about pristine,<br> "The Governor's wrist wound WAS NOT CAUSED BY A PRISTINE BULLET." p.<br> 94<br> <br> So this leaves one bullet and it had to be the fatal projectile that<br> removed part of the president's skull and much of his brains.<br> <br> After the coup, two bullet fragments were found in the Lincoln.<br> According to Warren , the two fragments weighed 44.6 and 21.0 grains<br> respectively."The heavier fragment was a portion of a bullet's nose<br> area... the lighter fragment consisted of a bullet's base... the two<br> fragments were both mutilated, and it was not possible to determine<br> from the fragments themselves whether they comprised the base and nose<br> of one bullet or of two separate bullets." WR<br> <br> If one bullet missed the car completely and one ended up at Parkland<br> almost pristine, the last bullet logically would have to be the bullet<br> that hit JFK in the head and both fragments were from the same<br> projectile I disagree with this conclusion.<br> <br> I suspect that, with the angle of the neck shot, the above fragments<br> would remain in the car, ergo,the remains of the single bullet , and<br> the head shot bullet probably ended up in tiny bits in Dealey Plaza.<br> <br> Some say that Tague was hit by the first MISSED shot, but he heard<br> shots before he was hit by a very tiny fragment. So, he was probably<br> hit by a fragment from the third shot instead of the ALLEGED MISSED<br> FIRST SHOT. He also thought that the shots came from the "hill"<br> <br> I personally do not believe there was a missed shot. If I were the<br> master-mind of the murder, I would be sure to provide evidence that<br> would assure the connection to the rifle and its owner. And since I<br> could not rely on the future condition of the bullets actually fired<br> at the occupants of the limousine, I would fire a bullet through the<br> barrel of the murder weapon before 11-22-63 and be sure to leave it<br> where it would be found. Enter the near pristine Parkland slug.<br> <br> And enter Jack Ruby and the Parkland slug.<br> <br> As Assistant. DA Alexander said, "The single bullet is like the<br> Immaculate Conception. Either you believe it or you don't."<br> <br> Amen and amen.<br> Now we will hear from WALT correcting me again.<br> Let us prey.<br> Raymond<br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> Raymond <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> 7/29/10 <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> - show quoted text -<br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> > The Second Carcanohttp://jfkresearch.freehomepage.com/c2766.html<br> <br> - show quoted text -<br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> > three ....Cont'dhttp://www.jfk-assassination.de/warren/wcr/page110.php<br> <br> - show quoted text -<br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> Page II<br> It would help to understand the foreign marking system.<br> <br> The Italian arms manufacturers used the same consecutive marking<br> system that the Germans used for identification, serial numbers,<br> manufacturing plant, etc..It began with a three digit serial number,<br> progressed through the thousand numbers. Example: 000-9999, then began<br> a prefix system. Example: A 111- A 9999. This progressed through the<br> alphabet -A-Z and AA-ZZ, etc..This system can be better understood by<br> looking at the serial numbers on the 100 rifles delivered to Klein's<br> in Feb. 1963. See Warren-Waldman exhibit #4. It is almost certain ,<br> since there were hundreds of thousands of rifles, many would have the<br> same number, however the prefix would be different. The FBI did locate<br> a rifle with the serial number 2766, while the LHO rifle was C-2766.<br> <br> The invoice of Empire Wholesale Sporting Goods, Limited ,in<br> Montreal Canada, dated June 29, 1962, reflects the sale of 700 used<br> Italian rifles to Century Arms of St. Albens, Vermont. Exhibit D 156<br> was furnished by the owner of Century Arms on March 11, 1964 to the<br> FBI.<br> <br> ORIGINAL LIST of serial numbers of 700 Carcano Italian carbines<br> Received by Century Arms, Inc, from Empire: Serial number 2766 appears<br> on last page of numbers (Exhibit D 103) See COMM. Exhibit No. 2562 #<br> 13 Warren Report It is almost impossible that two Carcanos would have<br> identical serial numbers unless someone altered them. (which I<br> suspect<br> was done in Dallas to frame LHO)<br> <br> Meagher dealt with the 2766 serial number, but at the time, didn't<br> understand the numbering system or the Canada connection.<br> <br> By the way, all serial numbers were not on the barrel. Some were on<br> the receiver, and even on the stock, some on more than one place. John<br> Cahill in VA has four Carcanos and two serial numbers are on the<br> receiver, two on the barrel.<br> <br> There is so much to be explained about how and where the Carcanos<br> were made that it could never be done on this forum. Guns marked Terni<br> may not have been made there. They could have been made in a small<br> plant elsewhere and called the Terni rifle. Some parts were made in<br> small plants and assembled at Terni, thus the Terni name .<br> <br> Because the guns looked alike, (the 7.35 mm and the 6.5 mm ) the<br> manufacturers stamped 7.35 on the stock so the troops knew what ammo<br> to use.<br> <br> I often wondered why LHO did not buy his 6.5 ammo from Klein's.<br> <br> I believe that it was because of the warning in the coupon itself,<br> and elsewhere in the full page Klein's ad.<br> "Handgun orders, and orders with ammo, are shipped express, charges<br> collect."<br> <br> So, even if Lee had ordered ammo, at the same time he ordered the<br> rifle, the items would have been shipped separately. Hand guns and<br> ammunition were not shipped via U.S. Mail. This is why Seaport Traders<br> shipped LHOs 38 to Railway Express on Houston Street. All the ads in<br> the gun magazines advised the customer of that fact .I think I am<br> right<br> on the mail laws, but if not, SHUCKS!<br> <br> Hundreds of ads in the gun magazines advertised the ammo, and some<br> even warned the user about the percentage of MIS-FIRES expected<br> because of the age of the ammo.<br> <br> Walzer Arms Inc. of Elmwood, N.Y. advertised 6.5 and 7.35 Carcano<br> ammo by the case of 1728 rounds for<br> $51.28.AMERICAN RIFLEMAN 8-61.<br> <br> Lee worked within a stones throw of Green's Dept. Store where they<br> sold both the rifle and the ammo.<br> <br> Hundreds of American gun dealers sold both the original Italian and<br> Western ammo in both 7.35 mm and 6.5 mm.<br> Century Arms Inc. of St. Albens, Vt. sold Western 6.5 mm in Factory<br> Packed ctns. of 20 and in cases of 1000 rds. Price: $7.50 per 100 rds.<br> and $60.00 per 1000 rds. (Ad, American Rifleman, 9-62, p.119).<br> <br> Walzer Arms of Elmford, NY sold 6.5 or 7.35 Italian M/C ammo by the<br> case of 1728 rds. for $51.28. (Ad, American Rifleman, 8-61.)<br> <br> In the same Walzer ad was 6.5 Carcano Rifles (very good) $6.75 each<br> in cases of 20. And, 6.5 Carcano Carbines (very good) $7.75 each in<br> cases of 12.<br> <br> I have seen photocopies of documentation that it was part of four<br> lots manufactured by WCC in 1954. It was, for military<br> ammunition, a very small batch: 4 million rounds as I understand.<br> <br> There is much speculation about where it went--some say Greece..<br> <br> My best understanding is that part of the contract never left the<br> U.S and that another part found its way back into the U.S.<br> If true, then some of that ammo was sold on the U.S. surplus<br> market illegally--as the aid laws forbade the reimportation and sale<br> of stuff sent overseas. It may have come back in the country via<br> Canada.<br> <br> The ammunition was advertised regularly in American Rifleman<br> magazine beginning, I think, in late 1961, sold at a premium price,<br> because it had non-corrosive primers.<br> <br> Several jobbers were selling it in case lots. I have the prices<br> somewhere in my notes.<br> <br> The FBI found that only one or two gun shops in the Dallas area<br> were selling the ammo. They interviewed one owner, a fellow named<br> Masen, who said he had split a case lot with someone else. Masen<br> denied to the FBI having sold any of the ammo to Oswald.<br> <br> That's about all I know off the top of my head.<br> --- John in VA<br> <br> I can provide some information about the ammo used in Dallas.<br> <br> The ammo was made by Western Cartridge Company of East Alton,<br> Illinois. It was bought by the Army for the CIA in 1954. It was<br> secretly made for the Italian government for the use in the overthrow<br> of the Communist government in Albania.<br> <br> The CIA operation failed and the ammo went into storage. Most of it<br> was later used in the Cuban Bay of Pigs fiasco. What was remaining was<br> released into the American surplus market(reported about 2 million<br> rounds).<br> <br> Originally, the Army received about 4 million rounds from Western<br> in lots 6000, 6001, 6002 and 6003. The Dallas ammo came from Lot<br> #6002.<br> <br> An FBI memorandum, dated Dec. 1963 reads, "... does not fit and<br> cannot be fired in any of the Marine Corps weapons."<br> <br> It was sold in boxes of 20 rounds. Marked on the box was;<br> 20 CARTRIDGES<br> 6.5 M/M MANNLICHER-CARCANO<br> TYPE BALL<br> DA-23-196-ORD-27<br> WESTERN CARTRIDGE COMPANY<br> DIVISION OF OLIN IND., INC.<br> EAST ALTON, ILLINOIS<br> LOT WCC- 6002<br> <br> In 1963, this was probably the most reliable 6.5 mm ammo avaiable<br> since older ammo was responsible for about 10 per cent misfires.<br> <br> ----- Raymond<br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> Walt <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> 7/29/10 <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> - show quoted text -<br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> > of the ...<br> ><br> > read more »- Hide quoted text -<br> <br> - show quoted text -<br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> Walt <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> 7/29/10 <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> - show quoted text -<br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> Raymond..... I wonder if you're confident enough to prove me<br> "wrong"??? I'll bet you whatever amont of money you'd like to wager<br> that you can't take any one of my Mannlicher Carcanos and place a<br> cartridge in the chamber and close the bolt and fire the rifle....<br> If you can close the bolt on the cartridge that you place in the<br> chamber without using a clip I lose, but if you can't close the bolt<br> and fire the rifle then you lose. Now how much would you like to<br> bet????<br> <br> <br> - show quoted text -<br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> Raymond <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> 7/31/10 <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> - show quoted text -<br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> (Testimony of Robert A. Frazier FBI Weapons Expert)<br> <br> Mr. Eisenberg.<br> Have you had occasion to purchase ammunition for this rifle?<br> Mr. Frazier.<br> Yes, sir.<br> Mr. Eisenberg.<br> Does the ammunition come in the clip?<br> Mr. Frazier.<br> Normally it does not. The ammunition that we have purchased for this<br> rifle comes in 20-shot boxes. It is possible and I say this as a<br> result of reading advertisements--to buy ammunition for this rifle,<br> and to receive a clip or clips at the same time, but not necessarily<br> part of the same shipment.<br> Mr. Eisenberg.<br> When you ordered C-250, which is now Commission Exhibit 542, did you<br> receive a clip with that rifle?<br> Mr. Frazier.<br> No, sir.<br> Mr. Eisenberg.<br> Would you deduce, therefore, that the clip--that someone wishing to<br> shoot that rifle and use a clip in the rifle would have purchased the<br> clip later?<br> Mr. Frazier.<br> They would have to acquire it from some source, yes.<br> Mr. Eisenberg.<br> Is it commonly available?<br> Mr. Frazier.<br> Yes, sir.<br> Mr. Mccloy.<br> Can you use that rifle without the clip?<br> Mr. Frazier.<br> Yes; you can.<br> Mr. Mccloy.<br> What is the advantage of the clip?<br> Mr. Frazier.<br> It permits repeated firing of the weapon without manually loading one<br> shot at a time.<br> Mr. Mccloy.<br> The only other way you can fire it is by way of manual load?<br> Mr. Frazier.<br> Yes, sir; one shot at a time.<br> Mr. Mccloy.<br> When you say a six-cartridge clip, could that gun have been fired with<br> the clip fully loaded and another one in the chamber?<br> Mr. Frazier.<br> Yes, sir.<br> Mr. Mccloy.<br> The same as the .30-06?<br> Mr. Frazier.<br> Yes, sir; the weapon will hold a maximum of seven.<br> http://www.jfk-assassination.de/warren/wch/vol3/page398.php<br> <br> <br> The clips come in brass, blue steel and a parkerized grey finish. They<br> will fit all versions of the Carcano. They will also fit the Scotti<br> and Armaguerra semi-automatic rifles which Italy made all too few of.<br> That’s for another story.<br> <br> <br> For a brief period in the thirties Italy considered going to a 7.35 mm<br> cartridge, and made some carbines in that calibre. If you find this<br> stuff clipped they will also function in the 6.5 mm as their case<br> <br> bodies are the same diameter. The clips/chargers can be inserted in<br> the magazine from either end.<br> Of course they can be used over and over, and, remember without the<br> clips/chargers you have a SINGLE SHOT RIFLE.<br> <br> <br> Some Carcanos were converted to 8 x 57 mm Mauser under German<br> supervision at the end of the war.<br> <br> ---Finn Nielsen<br> March 7, 1943 - July 30, 2008<br> <br> Diagnosed with cancer in March of 2006 and given 3-6 months to live,<br> Finn Nielsen bravely fought his last battle for more than 2 years,<br> peacefully crossing through the gates of Valhalla as of 1:15 am, July<br> 30, 2008, surrounded by his family.<br> <br> He was well-loved, well-respected, and will be sorely missed by family<br> and friends.<br> <br> Dedicated a lifetime to the art and science of Firearms<br> <br> 33 years experience in the field, worldwide, and has testified at all<br> levels of Court in The Province of Ontario for Defense and Prosecution<br> over 1000 times.<br> 'Distinguished' member of The Association of Firearms and Toolmark<br> Examiners and a member since its inception. A member of The Canadian<br> Society of Forensic Sciences.<br> Qualified Range Safety Officer with the Canadian Armed Forces as well<br> as an Honourary Small Arms Instructor at The Canada Armed Forces<br> School of Infantry.<br> Served as an Infantryman in the 2nd Battalion, The Canadian Guards in<br> the Canadian army which included a six-month tour of duty as a<br> peacekeeper in Cyprus.<br> Acted as a Firearms Expert with the Film Industry in Toronto and<br> assisted with weapons handling in many feature films, as well as<br> numerous television productions.<br> <br> <br> <br> - show quoted text -<br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> > ...<br> ><br> > read more »- Hide quoted text -<br> ><br> <br> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -<br> <br> ><br> > - Show quoted text -<br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> Raymond <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> 7/31/10 <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> - show quoted text -<br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> > Yes, sir; the weapon will hold a maximum of seven.http://www.jfk-assassination.de/warren/wch/vol3/page398.php<br> <br> - show quoted text -<br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> > as an ...<br> <br> ><br> > read more »- Hide quoted text -<br> ><br> > - Show quoted text -<br> <br> ADDENDUM:<br> <br> <br> Mr. Eisenberg.<br> You have shown us photographs of a clip--the clip from the Exhibit 139<br> <br> <br> rifle?<br> Mr. Frazier.<br> Yes, sir.<br> Mr. Eisenberg.<br> <br> One photograph loaded, and one unloaded?<br> Mr. Frazier.<br> Yes. In one instance I put six cartridges in the clip and photographed<br> it.<br> Mr. Eisenberg.<br> Did you take those photographs?<br> Mr. Frazier.<br> Yes, sir.<br> Mr. Mccloy.<br> Mr. Frazier, you testified that if you DIDN'T USE THE CLIP you would<br> only be able to shoot ONE SHELL AT A TIME, is that right?<br> <br> Mr. Frazier.<br> Yes, sir; this weapon DOES NOT HAVE THE BOX MAGAZINE commonly found in<br> most military weapons which holds the cartridges and can be re-loaded<br> one at a time, but they must remain in the clip, or they will<br> malfunction. The follower in the weapon will throw the cartridges<br> right back out of the gun.<br> <br> Mr. Mccloy.<br> That explains it to my mind, because I know I have fired rifles with<br> clips and fired them without clips. But they were much more convenient<br> in loading.<br> Mr. Mccloy.<br> Thank you very much, Mr. Frazier. You have been very helpful.<br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> Walt <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> 8/2/10 <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> - show quoted text -<br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> I'll ask you again.... HOW MUCH WOULD YOU LIKE TO BET???<br> <br> A lie posted by an "expert" is still a lie..... "Experts".... are<br> not infallible.... Simply because a physician may be an excallent<br> general pactioner he may not be an "expert" on diseases of the<br> lungs. So simply because you cite an "expert" does NOT mean he's<br> correct in this case. I ask you again....HOW MUCH WOULD YOU LIKE TO<br> BET??<br> <br> <br> - show quoted text -<br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> Raymond <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> 8/3/10 <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> - show quoted text -<br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> ----------------------<br> "A human being must have occupation if he or she is not to become a<br> nuisance to the world."<br> By Dorothy L. Sayers<br> ----------------------------------------<br> Source: http://www.famousquotesabout.com/on/Nuisance#ixzz0vWNNwrx8<br> <br> <br> <br> ><br> > > The clips come in brass, blue steel and a parkerized grey finish. They<br> > > will fit all versions of the Carcano. They will also fit the Scotti<br> > > and Armaguerra semi-automatic rifles which Italy made all too few of.<br> > > That’s for another story.<br> ><br> > > For a brief period in the thirties Italy considered going to a 7.35 mm<br> > > cartridge, and made some carbines in that calibre. If you find this<br> > > stuff clipped they will also function in the 6.5 mm as their case<br> > > bodies are the same diameter. The clips/chargers can be inserted in<br> > > the magazine from either end.<br> ><br> > > Of course they can be used over and over, and, remember without the<br> > > clips/chargers you have a SINGLE SHOT RIFLE.<br> > > Some Carcanos were converted to 8 x 57 mm Mauser under German<br> > > supervision at the end of the war.<br> ><br> > > ---Finn Nielsen<br> ><br> <br> <br> > ...<br> ><br> > read more »- Hide quoted text -<br> ><br> <br> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -<br> <br> ><br> > - Show quoted text -<br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> Walt <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> 8/9/10 <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> - show quoted text -<br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> Hey Raymond .....Your trolling has won you a challenge.... How much<br> would you like to bet that the Mannlicher Carcano CANNOT be loaded by<br> simply dropping a cartridge into the firing chamber and closing the<br> bolt??? In other words it cannot be fired as a "single shot"<br> rifle. Do you lack the guts to put some money behind your claim??<br> <br> <br> <br> ><br> ><br> ><br> ><br> ><br> > > The clips come in brass, blue steel and a parkerized grey finish. They<br> > > will fit all versions of the Carcano. They will also fit the Scotti<br> > > and Armaguerra semi-automatic rifles which Italy made all too few of.<br> > > That’s for another story.<br> ><br> > > For a brief period in the thirties Italy considered going to a 7.35 mm<br> > > cartridge, and made some carbines in that calibre. If you find this<br> > > stuff clipped they will also function in the 6.5 mm as their case<br> > > bodies are the same diameter. The clips/chargers can be inserted in<br> > > the magazine from either end.<br> ><br> > > Of course they can be used over and over, and, remember without the<br> > > clips/chargers you have a SINGLE SHOT RIFLE.<br> > > Some Carcanos were converted to 8 x 57 mm Mauser under German<br> > > supervision at the end of the war.<br> ><br> > > ---Finn Nielsen<br> ><br> > ...<br> ><br> > read more »- Hide quoted text -<br> ><br> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -<br> ><br> > - Show quoted text -<br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> Raymond <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> 8/9/10 <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> - show quoted text -<br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> On Aug 9, 10:47 am, Walt <papakochenb...@evertek.net> wrote:<br> >would you like to bet that the Mannlicher Carcano CANNOT be loaded by<br> > simply dropping a cartridge into the firing chamber and closing the<br> > bolt??? In other words it cannot be fired as a "single shot"<br> > rifle. Do you lack the guts to put some money behind your claim??<br> <br> I'll bet you a box of 20 firecrackers. like these pictured here<br> http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/296610655/Firecrackers/showimage.html<br> <br> >Pardon me, Raymond.... I'm sure you'll excuse me if I don't believe<br> >that Oswald shot "AT" Walker..... Do you have PROOF that Oswald shot<br> >"AT" Walker??<br> <br> >The evidence revealed a bullet hole in Walker's window so it's obvious<br> >that a bullet was fired into Walker HOUSE.... But WHERE?? was Walker<br> >at the time??<br> <br> >Do you have PROOF that Lee Oswald was the person who fired that<br> >rifle?? Do you have PROOF that he was alone in that alley behind<br> >Walker's House??<br> <br> >When was that bullet fired through walker's Window?? Could it have<br> >been fired during the day and then later that night a firecracker was<br> >set off to sound like a single gunshot??<br> <br> >Walker claimed that he just sat there behind his desk for a time after<br> >the sound of the "shot" so if the shooter was firing a Mannlicher<br> >Carcano he could have fired FIVE more times and INSURED that walker<br> >had been hit if that was his INTENTION. Was the reason that there was<br> >only a single shot because that "shot" was actually a firecracker??<br> <br> >Walt<br> <br> Dear Walt<br> Can you tell me if six "firecrackers" will fit in the SMI clip Lee<br> used in his MC?<br> Maybe that noise some of the witnesses heard and thought it was a<br> firecracker were correct.<br> And do you think Capt. Fritz switched the firecracker that was in the<br> rifle with a Western round?<br> Let us know please.<br> Raymond.<br> <br> <br> <br> ><br> > > > The clips come in brass, blue steel and a parkerized grey finish. They<br> > > > will fit all versions of the Carcano. They will also fit the Scotti<br> > > > and Armaguerra semi-automatic rifles which Italy made all too few of.<br> > > > That’s for another story.<br> ><br> > > > For a brief period in the thirties Italy considered going to a 7.35 mm<br> > > > cartridge, and made some carbines in that calibre. If you find this<br> > > > stuff clipped they will also function in the 6.5 mm as their case<br> > > > bodies are the same diameter. The clips/chargers can be inserted in<br> > > > the magazine from either end.<br> ><br> > > > Of course they can be used over and over, and, remember without the<br> > > > clips/chargers you have a SINGLE SHOT RIFLE.<br> > > > Some Carcanos were converted to 8 x 57 mm Mauser under German<br> > > > supervision at the end of the war.<br> ><br> > > > ---Finn Nielsen<br> ><br> > > ...<br> ><br> > > read more »- Hide quoted text -<br> ><br> > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -<br> ><br> > > - Show quoted text -<br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> Walt <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> 8/9/10 <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> - show quoted text -<br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> > I'll bet you a box of 20 firecrackers. like these pictured herehttp://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/296610655/Firecrackers/showimage.html<br> <br> - show quoted text -<br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> It appears that you do lack the guts to bet any money on your claim<br> that the MC can be fired as a "single shot" rifle. You may not be<br> smart enough to know that your evasion of the issue is tantamount to<br> admitting that you KNOW the rifle cannot be fired as a single shot<br> rifle but lack the guts to admit it openly.<br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> ><br> > > > > The clips come in brass, blue steel and a parkerized grey finish. They<br> > > > > will fit all versions of the Carcano. They will also fit the Scotti<br> > > > > and Armaguerra semi-automatic rifles which Italy made all too few of.<br> > > > > That’s for another story.<br> ><br> > > > > For a brief period in the thirties Italy considered going to a 7.35 mm<br> > > > > cartridge, and made some carbines in that calibre. If you find this<br> > > > > stuff clipped they will also function in the 6.5 mm as their case<br> > > > > bodies are the same diameter. The clips/chargers can be inserted in<br> > > > > the magazine from either end.<br> ><br> > > > > Of course they can be used over and over, and, remember without the<br> > > > > clips/chargers you have a SINGLE SHOT RIFLE.<br> > > > > Some Carcanos were converted to 8 x 57 mm Mauser under German<br> > > > > supervision at the end of the war.<br> ><br> > > > > ---Finn Nielsen<br> ><br> > > > ...<br> ><br> > > > read more »- Hide quoted text -<br> ><br> > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -<br> ><br> > > > - Show quoted text -<br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> jamesbond...@yahoo.com <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> Apr 7 <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> Walt, I believe you. <br> <br> Please contact me ASAP: paratr...@yahoo.com <br> <br> Since you appear to actually own a M-C....please ponder the following: <br> <br> www.oocities.org/whiskey99a/carcano.html <br> <br> "Something else to consider with regard to the Mannlicher Carcano clip is the fact that it is designed to hold 6 bullets. Since only 3 spent shells and 1 live round were apparently found at the scene it is logical to assume that if there was a clip it only contained 4 bullets at the time the shooting occurred. This is problematic because when a Carcano clip is underloaded the bullets have a strong tendency to fall over making it impossible to load and shoot them properly."<br> <br> MUST ONE HAVE 6 CARTRIDGES IN-THE-CLIP, IN-THE-WELL TO CYCLE THE M-C BOLT? <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> </p> <p>Oswald in the lunchroom within 90 seconds of the shooting.</p> <p><a href="http://www.whokilledjfk.net/officer_m.htm"> http://www.whokilledjfk.net/officer_m.htm</a></p> <p> </p> <p>reports of the rifle being found</p> <p><a href="http://www.whokilledjfk.net/finding_the_rifle.htm"> http://www.whokilledjfk.net/finding_the_rifle.htm</a></p> <p>Captain Fritz moved the shells found> <a href="http://www.whokilledjfk.net/tom_alyea_film.htm"> http://www.whokilledjfk.net/tom_alyea_film.htm</a></p> <p> </p> <p>Ordering/Receiving the Weapons</p> <p><a href="http://www.whokilledjfk.net/orderingreceiving_weapons.htm"> http://www.whokilledjfk.net/orderingreceiving_weapons.htm</a></p> <p> </p> <p>Analysis of the Hughes Film</p> <p>HSCACommittee Book VI (pages 115-120)</p> <p> </p> <p>Discrepancies in the Tippit Murder.</p> <p><a href="http://www.whokilledjfk.net/tippit.htm"> http://www.whokilledjfk.net/tippit.htm</a></p> <p>ANALYSIS OF THE HUGHES FILM BELOW</p> <p>ONLY 2 SHELLS FOUND-FBI</p> <p><img border="0" src="images/butch20.jpg" width="924" height="643"></p> <p><img border="0" src="images/butch21.jpg" width="1700" height="2338"></p> <p> </p> <p> </p> <p><img border="0" src="VI-115.jpg" width="1700" height="2338"></p> <p><img border="0" src="VI-116.jpg" width="1700" height="2338"></p> <p><img border="0" src="VI-117.jpg" width="1700" height="2338"></p> <p><img border="0" src="VI-118.jpg" width="1700" height="2338" align="left"><img border="0" src="butch14.jpg" width="1700" height="2338"></p> <p><img border="0" src="butch15.jpg" width="1700" height="2338"></p> <p align="left"><img border="0" src="VI-120.jpg" width="1700" height="2338"></p> <p> </p> <p> </p> <p>Below is the locations of Everyone in Daley PLAZA.</p> <p> </p> <p>Here's that shirt AGAIN</p> <p><img border="0" src="images/shirt-1.jpg" width="1700" height="2338"></p> <p> </p> <p><img border="0" src="images/butch22.jpg" width="544" height="784"></p> <p> </p> <p> </p> <p> </p> <p>Here's that shirt AGAIN.</p> <p><img border="0" src="butch16.jpg" width="480" height="480"><img border="0" src="01-19-2009_NMC_19WINFREYOSWALD_GUF2I7489_1.jpg" width="350" height="347"></p> <p><img border="0" src="images/butch18.jpg" width="1298" height="1280"></p> <p> </p> <p><img border="0" src="images/butch19.jpg" width="1027" height="833"></p> <p> </p> <p> </p> <p><font size="4" color="#008000">OSWALD AN FBI INFORMANT FROM WARREN COMMISSION EXECUTIVE SESSIONS></font></p> <p> </p> <p><img border="0" src="hmat-wcexec-01_0005_0001.png" width="640" height="827"></p> <p><img border="0" src="hmat-wcexec-01_0005_0002.png" width="640" height="827"></p> <p><img border="0" src="hmat-wcexec-01_0005_0003.png" width="640" height="827"></p> <p><img border="0" src="hmat-wcexec-01_0005_0004.png" width="640" height="827"></p> <p><img border="0" src="hmat-wcexec-01_0005_0005.png" width="640" height="827"></p> <p><img border="0" src="hmat-wcexec-01_0005_0006.png" width="640" height="827"></p> <p><img border="0" src="hmat-wcexec-01_0005_0007.png" width="640" height="827"></p> <p><img border="0" src="hmat-wcexec-01_0005_0008.png" width="640" height="827"></p> <p><img border="0" src="hmat-wcexec-01_0005_0009.png" width="640" height="827"></p> <p><img border="0" src="hmat-wcexec-01_0005_0010.png" width="640" height="827"></p> <p><img border="0" src="hmat-wcexec-01_0005_0011.png" width="640" height="827"></p> <p><img border="0" src="hmat-wcexec-01_0005_0012.png" width="640" height="827"></p> <p><img border="0" src="hmat-wcexec-01_0005_0013.png" width="640" height="827"></p> <p><img border="0" src="hmat-wcexec-01_0005_0014.png" width="640" height="827"></p> <p><font color="#FF0000"><b>AMAZING HOW THEY SAID IT HAD TO BE SQULCHED INSTEAD OF INVESTIGATED.</b></font></p> <p> </p> <p>HOW MANY OSWALD'S ARE THERE?</p> <p><img border="0" src="butch17.jpg" width="703" height="427"></p> <p> </p> <p><img border="0" src="images/2a80pi9.jpg" width="1280" height="1024"></p> <p> </p> <p> </p> <p> </p> <p> </p> <p> </p> <p> </p><!--msnavigation--></td></tr><!--msnavigation--></table></body> </html>