mCwatters

The CHAIRMAN - Would you be seated please, and Mr. Ball will conduct the interrogation.
Mr. BALL - Mr. McWatters.
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - What is your business?
Mr. McWATTERS - I am a bus driver.
Mr. BALL - How long have you been a bus driver?
Mr. McWATTERS - Let's see, this coming September will be 19 years.
Mr. BALL - Whom do you work for?
Mr. McWATTERS - The Dallas Transit Company.
Mr. BALL - How long have you worked for the Dallas Transit Company?
Mr. McWATTERS - It will be 19 years in September, I believe.
Mr. BALL - Where do you live?
Mr. McWATTERS - 2523 Blyth Drive, Dallas, Tex.
Mr. BALL - On November 22, 1963, were you on duty as a driver?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - What kind of a bus were you driving?
Mr. McWATTERS - Well, I was driving a 44-passenger, let's see, it is a 44-passenger city bus made by White, I believe is the maker of the bus.
Mr. BALL - What hours of work were you assigned that day?
Mr. McWATTERS - Well, I was assigned that day on the particular run from 11:52 until 2:27.
Mr. BALL - What was your run?
Mr. McWATTERS - Do you mean the name of the run?
Mr. BALL - What course did you take, what part of Dallas did you drive in.
Mr. McWATTERS - Well, I went from.
Mr. BALL - Describe it generally, you don't need to go into any detail.
Mr. McWATTERS - I would say from northeast Dallas in the Lakewood addition of Dallas to the Oak Cliff addition of Dallas, which is, would be southwest.
Mr. BALL - Would that be northeast to southwest?
Mr. McWATTERS - That is right.
Mr. BALL - There is a place near the downtown area of Dallas where you timed your run, wasn't it?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir; I have after I get into town, when I get into the downtown part of it, now St. Paul Street is my official time point going in, where they have a supervisor that stays at this checkpoint there, to check all incoming vehicles.
Mr. BALL - You would be coming in from northeast Dallas at that time?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir; I am coming in from the Lakewood addition of Dallas, which I came in on. The main thoroughfare is Gaston Avenue.
Mr. BALL - And you got to the intersection of what street and St. Paul when you were timed by your dispatcher?
Mr. McWATTERS - That is Elm, Elm Street.
Mr. BALL - Elm and St. Paul?
Mr. McWATTERS - Elm and St. Paul.
Mr. BALL - If you are ahead of time do you stop there until you are assigned a time to get in?
Mr. McWATTERS - Well, sir; no sir; you don't--a man he has his watch and schedule. If you are ahead of your schedule he will come out and stop you, in other words, and ask you if your watch is right or what is it, you know, the idea of you being there. There is no excuse, you know for a man being ahead of his schedule.
Mr. BALL - If you are ahead of your schedule does he stop you there until you leave?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, that is right.
Mr. BALL - What time are you due, according to your schedule, to leave the corner of St. Paul and Elm?
Mr. McWATTERS - 12:36.
Mr. BALL - What time did you leave there that day?
Mr. McWATTERS - Well, I left there that day on time because coming into town that day, I guess everybody done went to, down to, see the parade, I didn't have over four or five passengers coming into downtown.
Mr. BALL - Were you ahead of your schedule?
Mr. McWATTERS - Well, I stopped about a block before now, just a block before we get to St. Paul, there is a big theater there, and it has all loading zones, no parking there and a lot of times if we are a minute or two ahead of our schedule when we pull in in front of this theater before we get there in time, in other words, we kill a minute.
Mr. BALL - What did you do this day?
Mr. McWATTERS - Well, I was a little ahead of my schedule and I killed about a minute, I guess, before I went to cross St. Paul Street.
Mr. BALL - After your dispatcher checked you in what time did you leave that corner of St. Paul and Elm?
Mr. McWATTERS - Well, the best I can remember I don't recall even picking up a passenger there. I think I discharged one lady passenger there on that, to the best I can recall, because I remember that I had, when I crossed Field Street, I think I had five passengers on my bus.
Mr. BALL - Well then, back to *the question, what time did you leave that day, leave Elm and St. Paul?
Mr. McWATTERS - Well, I would have to say I left there around, in other words, 12:36 because I know I was on good time when I come in there.
Mr. BALL - And you think you left at the time you were supposed to leave?
Mr. McWATTERS - Well, I am almost positive I did, because, as I say, we generally come in on schedules on good time because from that street on is where we generally--for the next seven or eight blocks--is where we get all of our passengers going through the downtown area.
Mr. BALL - Had you heard any sirens before you got to St. Paul and Elm?
Mr. McWATTERS - No, sir.
Mr. BALL - Do you know if your dispatcher keeps a written record?
Mr. McWATTERS - The only way he keeps a written record is if you are ahead of your schedule. He has a little pad, and if a man is ahead of his schedule, in other words, he writes, of course, we all go by badge numbers, in other words, he would write your badge number, your bus number, and if you was ahead of schedule he would write how much ahead of schedule you were, and--
Mr. BALL - Do you think he did anything, did he write anything up on you on that day?
Mr. McWATTERS - No, sir; the guy that we have down there now, if you are ahead of schedule he will come out, in other words, because he stands on the corner all the time, and if you are a minute or two ahead of your schedule he will come out and if nothing else, converse with you for a minute or two to see that you leave it on time and very seldom, I mean, if ever--of course, a report goes in on you, it goes against your record.
Mr. BALL - In other words, if he did make a record it would be by way of a reprimand to you?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - As you went on down Elm you left your post at St. Paul and Elm, did you hear any sirens?
Mr. McWATTERS - No, sir.
Mr. BALL - Did you pick up any passengers?
Mr. McWATTERS - I picked up within a period of from the time I picked up two or three passengers, I can't recall just exactly which stop. I have after I leave St. Paul Street, I have Ervay Street and Akard Street, and Field Street which would be three stops where I can't recall that, exactly where I discharged or picked up passengers, because I had the few passengers that I had which I came into town with.
Mr. BALL - Well then, do you remember picking up a passenger at a place other than at a bus stop as you went down Elm?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir.
As I left Field Street, I pulled out into the, in other words, the first lane of traffic and traffic was beginning to back up then; in other words, it was blocked further down the street, and after I pulled out in it for a short distance there I come to a complete stop, and when I did, someone come up and beat on the door of the bus, and that is about even with Griffin Street.
In other words, it is a street that dead ends into Elm Street which there is no bus stop at this street, because I stopped across Field Street in the middle of the intersection and it is just a short distance onto Griffin Street, and that is when someone, a man, came up and knocked on the door of the bus, and I opened the door of the bus and he got on.
Mr. BALL - You were beyond Field and before you got to Griffin?
Mr. McWATTERS - That is right. It was along about even with Griffin Street before I was stopped in the traffic.
Mr. BALL - And that is about seven or eight blocks from the Texas Book Depository Building, isn't it?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir. It would be seven, I would say that is seven, it would be about seven blocks.
Mr. BALL - From there?
Mr. McWATTERS - From there, yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - What did the man look like who knocked on your door and got on your bus?
Mr. McWATTERS - Well, I didn't pay any particular attention to him. He was to me just dressed in what I would call work clothes, just some type of little old jacket on, and I didn't pay any particular attention to the man when he got on-
Mr. BALL - Paid his fare, did he?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir; he just paid his fare and sat down on the second cross seat on the right.
Mr. BALL - Do you remember whether or not you gave him a transfer?
Mr. McWATTERS - Not when he got on; no, sir.
Mr. BALL - You didn't. Did you ever give him a transfer?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir; I gave him one about two blocks from where he got on.
Mr. BALL - Did he ask you for a transfer?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Do you remember what he said to you when he asked you for the transfer?
Mr. McWATTERS - Well, the reason I recall the incident, I had--there was a lady that when I stopped in this traffic, there was a lady who had a suitcase and she said, "I have got to make a 1 o'clock train at Union Station," and she said, "I don't believe from the looks of this traffic you are going to be held up."
She said, "Would you give me a transfer and I am going to walk on down," which is about from where I was at that time about 7 or 8 blocks to Union Station and she asked me if I would give her a transfer in case I did get through the traffic if I would pick her up on the way.
So, I said, "I sure will." So I gave her a transfer and opened the door and as she was going out the gentleman I had picked up about 2 blocks asked for a transfer and got off at the same place in the middle of the block where the lady did.
Mr. BALL - Where was that near, what intersection?
Mr. McWATTERS - It was the intersection near Lamar Street, it was near Poydras and Lamar Street. It is a short block, but the main intersection there is Lamar Street.
Mr. BALL - He had been on the bus about 2 blocks?
Mr. McWATTERS - About 2 blocks; yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Up to that time had you heard any sirens?
Mr. McWATTERS - Not up until--now just about the time that, let's see, that is when I left Griffin, right about the time this gentleman got on the bus the traffic was starting and that was about the first that I can recall of hearing the sirens, but when, in other words, when they started it seemed to me like they was coming from all over town.
Mr. BALL - Did you have a radio in your bus?
Mr. McWATTERS - No, sir.
Mr. BALL - Did you hear a radio from nearby cars announcing anything about the President's assassination?
Mr. McWATTERS - Well, there was cars that were stopped alongside of the bus and I think someone raised the window but I couldn't hear. I never did hear anything outside of the--
Mr. BALL - Where were you when you first heard the President had been shot?
Mr. McWATTERS - Well, I was sitting in the bus, there was some gentleman in front of me in a car, and he came back and walked up to the bus and I opened the door and he said, "I have heard over my radio in my car that the President has been--" I believe he used the word--"has been shot."
Mr. BALL - Is that when you were stalled in traffic?
Mr. McWATTERS - That is right. That is when I was stalled right there.
Mr. BALL - Was that before or after the man got off the bus that asked for the transfer?
Mr. McWATTERS - That was before. In other words, at that time no one had gotten off the bus.
Mr. BALL - What was your location then, near what street?
Mr. McWATTERS - Between Poydras and Lamar, in other words, because I stayed stopped there for, I guess oh, 3 or 4 minutes anyway before I made any progress at that one stop right there and that is where the gentleman got off the bus. In fact, I was talking to the man, the man that come out of the car; in other words, he just stepped up in the door of the bus, and was telling me that what he had heard over his radio and that is when the lady who was standing there decided she would walk and when the other gentleman decided he would also get off at that point.
Mr. BALL - At that point.
What course did you take after that?
Mr. McWATTERS - Well, I still was going west, in other words, in the same direction, going west, in other words, towards Houston Street. In other words, I went there before I changed my course which was about, I would say, three or four blocks.
When I got to Houston Street, in other words, I turned to the left, which would be south--
Mr. BALL - You went by the Texas School Book Depository Building?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir; I turned at the corner of Elm Street and Houston which this book store is on the opposite corner from where I changed course there.
Mr. BALL - Was traffic still heavy along there?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir; the traffic was still tied up, but the police, they opened up a lane there, they had so many buses and everything that was tied up, they opened up, moved traffic around that they run quite a few of these buses through there.
In other words, from two blocks on this side of where the incident happened they had, in other words, they was turning all the traffic to the right and to the left, in other words, north and south.
Mr. BALL - You went on down to Houston viaduct then?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, I turned after they finally let--they weren't letting any cars through at that time but they just run a bunch of those buses through there.
Mr. BALL - Is there a bus stop in front of the Texas School Book Depository Building?
Mr. McWATTERS - No, sir.
Mr. BALL - Where do you stop for that intersection?
Mr. McWATTERS - Well, you stop, in other words, on this side of the street.
Mr. BALL - You stop on the south side of, the southeast corner of the intersection?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir.
In other words, like you would be going, direct south towards the Building, the bus stop is on this corner over here on this side.
Mr. BALL - You mean the corner of Houston and Elm?
Mr. McWATTERS - That is right.
Mr. BALL - Which corner, north, south, east, west?
Mr. McWATTERS - Well, it would be on the north.
Mr. BALL - North.
Mr. McWATTERS - On the north.
Mr. BALL - Here is a map and maybe you can show us where the bus stop is. This is Exhibit No. 371.
Mr. McWATTERS - In other words, this is south, in other words.
Mr. BALL - This is west. You are going west on Elm.
Mr. McWATTERS - In other words, I am going--right here is where the police had all traffic, they wasn't allowing anything to go any further than Market Street here.
In other words, all the traffic there they were moving was turning either to the right or left, on Market Street. But after they held us up there so long, of course, they run these buses in this right lane here and they did open up and let a bunch of these buses go right on down here to Houston, of course, a lot of them go straight on and a lot of them turn left to Houston Street, a lot of them go under the underpass here.
Mr. BALL - Wait a minute, you turned to the left?
Mr. McWATTERS - I turned to the left.
Mr. BALL - On Houston?
Mr. McWATTERS - In other words, my last stop, in other words at this comer right here on Record Street, all buses turning to the left have to stop at this corner right here.
Mr. BALL - At Record and Elm?
Mr. McWATTERS - At Record and Elm.
Mr. BALL - Do you have a bus stop at Houston and Elm?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir; there is a bus stop there for the buses that go on under the underpass.
Mr. BALL - Is there a bus stop for the buses that go south on Houston?
Mr. McWATTERS - No, sir; all the buses, we have to get in, this is a one-way street and you have to get over in this lane here.
Mr. BALL - By the lane you mean the extreme left lane?
Mr. McWATTERS - The extreme left lane to make--
Mr. BALL - To make the left turn south on Houston Street?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes.
Mr. BALL - And your last bus stop, as you go west on Elm and before you turn is the northeast corner of Record and Elm?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. BALL - You went on over to Houston Viaduct into the Oak Cliff section, didn't you?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir; to the Oak Cliff section.
Mr. BALL - And there was some conversation occurred on that bus that you told the FBI officers about?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Tell us what that was?
Mr. McWATTERS - Well, there was a teenage boy, I would say 17 or 18 years of age who was sitting to my right on the first cross seat and me and him had, we had conversationed a little while we was tied up in the traffic, you know, of the fact of we wondered where all, what all the excitement was due to the fact of the sirens and others, and after I turned on Houston Street I said to him and I made the remark, I wonder where the President was shot, and I believe he made the remark that it was probably in the head if he was in a convertible or something to that effect. I don't remember just exactly the way we worded it or what it was, but it was a conversation about the President, in other words, to where he was shot. In other words, and he made the remark or something, he was probably shot in the head, if he was sitting in a convertible or to that effect. I really don't know just exactly at that time. Just like I say I never thought anything about it.
Mr. BALL - Didn't some lady say something?
Mr. McWATTERS - Well, yes, sir.
Now, as we got on out on Marsalis, along about it was either Edgemont or Vermont, I believe it was Vermont Street, there was a lady who was fixing to cross the intersection and I stopped and asked her if she was going to catch the bus into town from the opposite direction, and she said that she was and I told her that we was off schedule, that the other bus had done went into town, and I asked her did she care to just ride on to the end of the line and come back and she wouldn't have to stand there and wait, and she was getting on, and I asked her had she heard the news of the President being shot, at the time that was all I knew about it, and she said, "No, what are you--you are just kidding me."
I said, "No, I really am not kidding you." I said, "It is the truth from all the reliable sources that we have come in contact with," and this teenage boy sitting on the side, I said "Well, now, if you think I am kidding you," I said, "Ask this gentleman sitting over here," and he kind of, I don't know whether it was a grinning or smile or whatever expression it was, and she said, "I know you are kidding now, because he laughed or grinned or made some remark to that effect."
And I just told her no it wasn't no kidding matter, but that was part of the conversation that was said at that time.
Mr. BALL - Was this teenage boy--do you know where this teenage boy got on the bus?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir; he got on at between, he got on at the stop, in other words, I stopped in front of the Majestic theater which is a block before I get to St. Paul; in other words, it is a middle of the stop, block stop, in other words. We pull in and stop in the center of the block, and my next stop would be St. Paul; in other words, that is where the teenage boy got on.
Mr. BALL - He was on the bus when this man knocked on the door of your bus and got on?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir; he was.
Mr. BALL - He was on the bus when the man asked for the transfer and got off?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir. That is right.
Mr. BALL - Were you later called down to the--did the teenage boy ask for any transfer?
Mr. McWATTERS - No, sir.
Mr. BALL - Now, you were called down to the Dallas police department later, weren't you?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - What day was it?
Mr. McWATTERS - It was on the same day, the 22d.
Mr. BALL - 22d. Do you know how they happened to get in touch with you, did you notify them that you.--
Mr. McWATTERS - No, sir; I didn't know anything to that effect.
Mr. BALL - Did they come out and get you?
Mr. McWATTERS - They come out and--
Mr. BALL - What did they ask you?
Mr. McWATTERS - Well, they stopped me; it was, I would say around 6:15 or somewhere around 6:15 or 6:20 that afternoon.
Mr. BALL - You were still on duty, were you?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Still on your bus?
Mr. McWATTERS - I was on duty but I was on a different line and a different bus.
Mr. BALL - What did they ask you when they came out?
Mr. McWATTERS - Well, they stopped me right by the city hall there when I come by there and they wanted me to come in, they wanted to ask me some questions. And I don't know what it was about or anything until I got in there and they told me what happened.
Mr. BALL - What did they tell you?
Mr. McWATTERS - Well, they told me that they had a transfer that I had issued that was cut for Lamar Street at 1 o'clock, and they wanted to know if I knew anything about it. And I, after I looked at the transfer and my punch, said yes, that is the transfer I issued because it had my punch mark on it.
Mr. BALL - Did your punch mark have a distinctive mark?
Mr. McWATTERS - It had a distinctive mark and it is registered, in other words, all the drivers, every driver has a different punch mark.
Mr. BALL - What makes it different?
Mr. McWATTERS - Well, it is, it would be, the symbol of it or angle, in other words, every one; it is different, in other words.
Mr. BALL - You have a punch there?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir; I have the punch right here.
Mr. BALL - Is that the punch that you used?
Mr. McWATTERS - That is the punch I used.
Mr. BALL - Will you punch a piece of paper and show us?
Mr. McWATTERS - In other words, that is the type of punch that this one makes right here, in other words.
Mr. BALL - That is a different type of punch than any other driver has?
Mr. McWATTERS - Any driver, in other words.
Mr. BALL - On any bus in Dallas?
Mr. McWATTERS - In other words, the superintendent has a list, in other words, it would be just like this and every man has a punch and he has his name, and everything. In other words, if anyone calls in about a transfer or anything, I mean brings one in he can look right down the list by the punch mark and tell whose punch it is, and who it is registered to.
Mr. BALL - Now, the sample of your punch there has been on a piece of paper and we would like to have it marked as 372 at this time.
(The paper referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 372 and received in evidence.)
Mr. BALL - If you punched, made a punch mark, on a transfer, did you designate the time of the punch or the place of the punch?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir; I designate the time of the we have one general transfer point. In other words, Lamar Street is what we call our general transfer point in which all transfers are cut within the quarter of the hour in which you are supposed to be there.
In other words, if you was to arrive there at, say, 12:50 or in that vicinity, you always give the passenger the 15 minutes, in other words, within the hour of the transfer. In other words, is the way they have you to cut your transfers across your cutter.
In other words, it is just a little thing that you raise up and down and you can adjust them, and right here is a book of them in which you can see the time. It is one, in other words, 2:15, 3:30, and 4:45, and we set them in other words, if you wanted at 1:15, 1 o'clock would be across this direction. If you wanted it 1:15 you would cut across this direction or if you wanted it 1:45 you would cut it in this direction. In other words, 1:15, - :30 and - :45. In other words, the 15 minutes is always given at the time, at the general transfer point.
Representative FORD - It is 10:25 now. How would you cut it right now?
Mr. McWATTERS - At 10:25.
Representative FORD - Why don't you cut one?
Mr. McWATTERS - I have a regular cutter, you see; let's see if he can get something that would--in other words, 10:25, I will just cut it, in other words, cut across there, and cut it, in other words, at 10:30, in other words, it would show at 10:30.
(At this point, Senator Cooper entered the hearing room.)
Representative FORD - Where do you put your own identification?
Mr. McWATTERS - On here. Well, if it is in the morning or in the afternoon, here is your a.m., or your p.m. In other words, it is before 12:45, in other words, we consider up to 12:45 a.m., in other words, that is the way they are.
In other words, I would punch it in the a.m. side of it, and if it was in the afternoon, in other words, after that, it would be a p.m. transfer, and whatever line that you are working has the name on it right here.
In other words, at that time that transfer I had punched was punched a p.m. Lakewood, in other words, because I was coming from the Lakewood addition is the way that was punched on the transfer.
Mr. BALL - Well now, do you punch the transfer when the passenger asks for it?
Mr. McWATTERS - No. No, sir; in other words, when you leave this, you are inbound when you are going into town or when you are going, in other words, out of town, in other words.
I was coming in, in other words, when I got in Lakewood Addition I set my transfers for downtown.
Mr. BALL - For downtown and you set them for what time?
Mr. McWATTERS - I set them for 1 o'clock.
Mr. BALL - You set them for 1 o'clock?
Mr. McWATTERS - 1 o'clock.
Mr. BALL - When you reached your end of the run in northeast Dallas then you set your transfers for 1 o'clock, did you?
Mr. McWATTERS - That is right, when I was coming back in.
Mr. BALL - And when you gave this transfer near Poydras and Elm--
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Did you pull out a transfer that had already been set for 1 o'clock time?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir. In other words, I just reached up on my cutter and just tore off one which is already punched.
Mr. BALL - Then did you punch it again or was it already punched?
Mr. McWATTERS - It was already punched.
Mr. BALL - And you had punched it at the end of the line?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - So all you had to do is pull the transfer off of the pile of transfers and hand it to the man?
Mr. McWATTERS - That is correct.
Mr. BALL - And you had anticipated at the end of the line that when you got to about this point it would be a 1 o'clock transfer, is that correct?
Mr. McWATTERS - Well, that is right.
In other words, there is enough time on it, just like I say, within a quarter of an hour, but--
Mr. BALL - When you got to the police station that day did they show you a transfer?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - What did you tell them about the transfer?
Mr. McWATTERS - Well, I recognized the transfer as being the transfer that 1 had issued.
Mr. BALL - How did you recognize it?
Mr. McWATTERS - By my punch mark on it.
Mr. BALL - And what about the line?
Mr. McWATTERS - The line?
Mr. BALL - Lakewood.
Mr. McWATTERS - The Lakewood punch on it, and where it was punched and Lakewood with my punch mark on it.
Mr. BALL - Were you able to identify it any further as a particular transfer you had given to any particular passenger?
Mr. McWATTERS - No, sir. Only--
Mr. BALL - Go ahead.
Mr. McWATTERS - I only gave two transfers going through town on that trip and that was at the one stop of where I gave the lady and the gentleman that got off the bus, I issued two transfers. But that was the only two transfers that were issued.
Mr. BALL - Did you tell the police in Dallas that?
Mr. McWATTERS - I don't remember whether I did or not.
Mr. BALL - But you do remember it now?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes.
(At this point Chief Justice Warren left the hearing room.)
Mr. BALL - All right. Now, what else did you do that day?
Mr. McWATTERS - Well, let's see
Mr. BALL - Did they show you any prisoner?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir; when they stopped me over there and took me into the police department there, like I say, it was around 6:15 or 6:20, they took me down before the lineup there and asked me if I could identify anyone in that lineup as getting on my bus that day.
Mr. BALL - Did they take you down and show you a lineup?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - You sat there with police officers and they brought men in there?
Mr. McWATTERS - They brought four men out. In other words, four men under the lights; in other words, they was all--
Mr. BALL - All the same age?
Mr. McWATTERS - No, sir; they were different ages, different sizes and different heights. And they asked me if I could identify any man in particular there, and I told them that I couldn't identify any man in particular, but there was one man there that was about the size of the man. Now, I was referring back, after they done showed me this transfer at that time and I knew which trip, that I went through town on at that time, in other words, on the Lakewood trip and just like I recalled, I only put out two transfers and I told them that there was one man in the lineup was about the size and the height and complexion of a man that got on my bus, but as far as positively identifying the man I could not do it.
Mr. BALL - What was the size and the height and complexion of the man that knocked on the window of this bus?
Mr. McWATTERS - Well, I would say, just like I told the police, to me he was just a medium-sized man. To me he was, I could say, not, I wouldn't call him--just of average weight, and I would say a light-complected, to the best of my knowledge.
Mr. BALL - When you say "average weight" what do you mean?
Mr. McWATTERS - I figured just like I saw, the man, he looked like to me the best way I can describe him would be 135 or 140 pounds.
Mr. BALL - What about height?
Mr. McWATTERS - Well, just like I told them, it looked like to me he would probably be five-seven or five-eight, in that vicinity.
Mr. BALL - Anyway, you were not able to identify any man in the lineup as the passenger?
Mr. McWATTERS - No, sir.
Mr. BALL - As the passenger who had gotten on?
Mr. McWATTERS - No, sir.
Mr. BALL - You said there was one man who closely resembled in height, weight and color?
Mr. McWATTERS - That is right.
Mr. BALL - Do you know who that was?
Mr. McWATTERS - Just like I told them, I didn't know who was who or anything.
Mr. BALL - Did you ever learn who that person was?
Mr. McWATTERS - Well, I don't know whether that was really the man or not, I don't know.
Mr. BALL - I see.
Now, I have a map here.
(Discussion off the record.)
Representative FORD - All right, proceed.
Mr. BALL - You remember you told us about the man that knocked on the window of the door of your bus just before you got to Griffin, wasn't it?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir; along about the vicinity of Griffin Street, it comes to.
Mr. BALL - You let him on the bus, and he paid his fare, how much is that fare?
Mr. McWATTERS - It is 23 cents.
Mr. BALL - 23 cents, and you went about down almost to Poydras.
Mr. McWATTERS - Almost, between Poydras and Lamar.
Mr. BALL - Between Poydras and Lamar, closer to Lamar than to Poydras?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - And a man got on. Was it the same man?
Mr. McWATTERS - That was the same man who got on the bus that I picked up, in other words.
Mr. BALL - And the man you gave the transfer to?
Mr. McWATTERS - The man I gave the transfer to when the woman--in other words, when the man that got on Griffin Street there got off at the same place she did.
Mr. BALL - And he was only on the bus about 2 blocks?
Mr. McWATTERS - Two blocks was the only distance.
Mr. BALL - How long did it take you to go those 2 blocks?
Mr. McWATTERS - Now, he paid as far as from St. Paul Street. I made--there wasn't any traffic holding me up whatsoever, I come on right down to where I picked the man up there, in other words, about Field, and that is where the traffic was starting to back up to. So the best of my knowledge I would say it took me 3 or 4 minutes to get down there, so I will just have to say it was in the vicinity of around 12:40.
Mr. BALL - In other words, how long was the man on your bus, the man who got on, about Griffin and got off and you gave him the transfer, approximately?
Mr. McWATTERS - Well, he got on, and when he got on, I made that one block, and then the other, well, I would be safe in saying he wasn't on there 5 minutes.
Mr. BALL - And you think he got off or on around 12:40?
Mr. McWATTERS - 12:40 that is the best.
Mr. BALL - What time did you say he got on approximately?
Mr. McWATTERS - On the bus?
Mr. BALL - Yes.
Mr. McWATTERS - Well, I would say in the vicinity from where I left up there it would be probably it took me, I would say, 3 minutes to come, let's see, it would be Ervay, Akard and Field, that is about 3 blocks there where I left my time point which I would say just a rough estimation it would be with no traffic would be 2 or 3 minutes, I would say 3 minutes anyway. So, it must have been somewheres 12:39 or--so.
Mr. BALL - When he got on the bus?
Mr. McWATTERS - 12:40.
Mr. BALL - And then he was on the bus about how many minutes?
Mr. McWATTERS - Well, just like I say he wasn't on the bus over 4 or 5 minutes, in other words, just made that 1 block there, and in other words, when the traffic stopped, well, that is when he got off the bus.
Representative FORD - During the time he was on the bus this man rapped at your door or was your door open, and spoke up and said that the President had been shot?
Mr. McWATTERS - He was on the bus, you mean was the door open?
Representative FORD - No. You previously testified that while you were stalled or jammed up in the traffic
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir.
Representative FORD - A man came to the door of the bus and indicated by word of mouth--
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir.
Representative FORD - That the President had been shot.
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir.
Representative FORD - Now, was the man to whom you issued the transfer on the bus at that time?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir.
Representative FORD - Now, the man who spoke up and said that the President had been shot, how loudly did he say that?
Mr. McWATTERS - Well, he said it loud enough that I guess everybody on the bus heard him when he stepped up in the bus.
Representative FORD - In other words, that would be your best impression or best recollection that whoever said this, that the President had been shot, said it loudly enough for not only you but the other bus passengers to hear it?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir. Because he stepped up in the bus and when he made the statement in other words, he said that the President had been shot, because I am pretty sure everybody--he said it to the fact. I think that everybody, there might have been some, if there was anybody in the extreme back of the bus, might not have heard it, but I think anyone who was near the front part of the bus could have.
Representative FORD - But at that time when this man made this statement, there was a teenager sitting in the first cross seat on the right-hand side of the bus?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir.
Representative FORD - And the man who had gotten on the bus to whom you later issued the transfer, was sitting in the second?
Mr. McWATTERS - In the second seat.
Representative FORD - What is the distance from the door of the bus where the man was standing who made this statement to the second cross seat?
Mr. McWATTERS - Well, I would say, let's see, it would be I would say 6 or 8 feet.
Representative FORD - Was he sitting alone in the second cross seat?
Mr. McWATTERS - He was sitting alone.
Representative FORD - Did you notice any reaction on the part of any of your passengers to this comment by this man who made this statement?
Mr. McWATTERS - Well, the only reaction that I knew is when he got up and said that. well, that is when the lady got off first, which she jumped up and got her suitcase and said, in other words, made a remark to something. "I am afraid you are going to be tied up here in this traffic and I want to get off."
Representative FORD - Where was this lady sitting who got up and asked for this transfer?
Mr. McWATTERS - Now, this lady was sitting behind me, in other words, I am the driver.
Representative FORD - On the left-hand side of the bus looking forward?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir; in other words, it is a cross seat. I mean a side seat, in other words, like the driver sitting here, the first seat is the one that runs parallel with the bus, in other words.
Representative FORD - Well now, the seat in which the lady was sitting would be parallel to the second cross seat on the other side of the bus?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, in other words--
Representative FORD - It would be on the same line?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir.
Representative FORD - The first seat would be ahead--the first seat on the right-hand side of the bus would be ahead of the seat where the lady was sitting?
Mr. McWATTERS - No, you mean the lady, I am referring to who got off first?
Representative FORD - Yes.
Mr. McWATTERS - No, the lady--I was sitting in the driver's seat, she was sitting right behind me, in other words, facing out his way.
Representative FORD - But she obviously heard what the man said about the President being shot?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir.
Representative FORD - There is no doubt in your mind she heard that?
Mr. McWATTERS - I wouldn't think so because when she got up and stated she wanted to get off--
Representative FORD - Was she any further from the man who made this statement about the President being shot than the man who was sitting in the second cross seat?
Mr. McWATTERS - She was closer to the man actually than the man that got off with her was.
Representative FORD - How many feet or how much difference?
Mr. McWATTERS - Well, the lady in other words, from the door here, it is just two cross seats, and two seats where you sit sideways and then the two seats in which he would be back here.
Representative FORD - Could you diagram that as best as you can?
Mr. BELIN - Congressman, we have a diagram. We have a picture of the side of the bus.
Mr. McWATTERS - Right here.
Representative FORD - Sit down.
Mr. McWATTERS - You can see it from this point right here, in other words. You see this cross seat, in other words, these first two right here, the driver's seat, you see the first two seats there, in other words.
Representative FORD - Could you sit down and mark it?
Mr. McWATTERS - This is the inside, let's see, this is the driver right here. Here is your cross seat right here. Here, about back here, is where the lady got off who was sitting on this seat.
Representative FORD - Will you mark that with an "L"?
Mr. McWATTERS - In other words, right here.
Representative FORD - Where was the man in the first cross seat sitting?
Mr. McWATTERS - Right here is the first. Right here is where the man that was sitting, got off, in this seat right here, I believe it is.
Representative FORD - Will you mark that "M" where the man who was sitting also got off who got the transfer?
Mr. BALL - Maybe we had better use a black pen that will show better on that glazed surface.
Representative FORD - This is where the man was sitting who you issued the transfer to at the same time the lady was issued the transfer?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir.
Representative FORD - And the teenager was sitting in what seat?
Mr. McWATTERS - Right here.
Representative FORD - Will you mark that "0"?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir.
Representative FORD - Where was the man standing who came to the bus and said the President had been shot?
Mr. McWATTERS - Right here.
Representative FORD - On the step?
Mr. McWATTERS - On the step. I guess, I presume this would be the second step there. To the best of my recollection he stepped up on the first step.
Representative FORD - Mark that "P."
Mr. McWATTERS - "P."
Representative FORD - Now, after the man who was standing at "P" said the President was shot, what did the lady do who was sitting in "L"?
Mr. McWATTERS - Well, the lady, she had a suitcase sitting right there beside me and she left. When the lady got up and said she would like to get off the bus, and that she was going to walk to the Union Station and asked me if I would give her a transfer in case that I caught up with her, and asked me if I would pick her up.
Representative FORD - You gave her a transfer?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir.
Representative FORD - What happened?
Mr. McWATTERS - She got off and by the time when she was talking to me that is when he got up, this gentleman here in the seat got up, at seat "M" got off. In other words, the door was never closed of the bus from the time the gentleman stepped up in the door of that there, in other words, when he said what he did, and got on back in his car, in other words, the lady got off, and the man got off, too, both at the same stop.
In other words, the bus hadn't moved at that stop.
Mr. BALL - I would like to mark this as the next exhibit, Commission's exhibit, which will be the diagram of the bus with the initials "M," "O," "L," "P," will be marked as Commission's Exhibit 373.
Representative FORD - It will be so admitted.
(The diagram referred to was marked Commission's Exhibit No. 373 for identification and received in evidence.)
Mr. BALL - And a photograph of the interior of the bus, I would like to have marked as 374.
And a diagram of the bus itself showing front and side as 375.
(The photograph and diagram referred to were marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 374 and 375, respectively, and received in evidence.)
Mr. BALL - I will hand you a photograph of the exterior of the bus.
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir; in other words, that is the same bus number.
Mr. BALL - That is right.
Mr. McWATTERS - That is the bus it was.
Mr. BALL - That is the bus. Number --
Mr. McWATTERS - 433.
Representative FORD - So admitted.
Mr. BALL - These are all admitted.
Now, we have this map which is Commission's Exhibit 371. Can You show me your starting point which is where you started your time on Elm and what street?
Mr. McWATTERS - That is Elm and St. Paul.
Mr. BALL - Will you mark an "X" there with your black pen, or let's take red pen this time for you, on this same map, here it is right there, that is where you commenced your time, is that right?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Put an "O" there.
Mr. McWATTERS - Put an "O" here.
Mr. BALL - Just circle that intersection.
Mr. McWATTERS - O.K.
Mr. BALL - Now, you went along Elm, westerly along Elm?
Mr. McWATTERS - That is right--
Mr. BALL - Put a "P" about the place where the man knocked on the window of your door of your bus and got on. Here is Griffin.
Mr. McWATTERS - This is Griffin right here, mark that with a "P".
Mr. BALL - And put an "R" at the place where the man got off the bus.
Mr. McWATTERS - Let's see.
Mr. BALL - Here is Lamar.
Mr. McWATTERS - Here is Lamar here. I want to find Poydras.
Mr. BALL - That is right in here.
Mr. McWATTERS - That would be, in other words, about the center here would be, in other words, a little bit closer to Lamar than--
Mr. BALL - Put an "R" there to indicate the approximate position where he got off.
"O" is where you started, so you had better raise those up to Elm. The place he got on and the place he got off.
Perhaps, if you would just draw a line up and put your "R" it would be easier.
Mr. McWATTERS - On Griffin here now that is where you want--
Mr. BALL - Where he got on, wherever it was.
Mr. McWATTERS - Is that where you want the "P"?
Mr. BALL - That is where he got on?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes. O.K. right here.
Mr. BALL - And where he got off "R".
Mr. McWATTERS - That is a very short block right in between Poydras and Lamar here.
Mr. BALL - All right.
Now, let's use the map here. You made your start at St. Paul and Elm didn't you, and went west.
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Now, you picked up a man who knocked on the window of your bus at a place in the street that was not a bus stop, is that right?
Mr. McWATTERS - That is correct.
Mr. BALL - And its approximate location was where?
Mr. McWATTERS - At Griffin Street.
Mr. BALL - And you have marked that as "P"?
Mr. McWATTERS - Marked that as "P".
Mr. BALL - That same man stayed on your bus until you got to what location?
Mr. McWATTERS - Well, the location was between Poydras and Lamar Street. In other words, I would say closer to Lamar than to Poydras.
Mr. BALL - At that point he got off the bus?
Mr. McWATTERS - He got off the bus.
Mr. BALL - And you gave him a transfer?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes.
Mr. BALL - And you have marked that "R", is that correct?
Mr. McWATTERS - That is right, yes.
Mr. BALL - There is another map I would like to show you that hasn't been marked yet as a Commission Exhibit, and I will have that marked as 376, a map of Dallas.
You have already marked on this map, haven't you, or it has been marked in advance then by someone.
(The map referred to was marked Commission's Exhibit No. 376 and received in evidence.)
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Now, take a look at this map and tell me if that map, the blue line on the map, indicates your route on that day, where you started in northeast Dallas?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, that is the original starting line there.
Mr. BALL - What is the street?
Mr. McWATTERS - I believe--I can't even see that small print on that. That is Ellsworth and Anita, that is where it is coming back there.
Mr. BALL - Ellsworth and Anita, and then you proceeded downtown along that course, did you?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir. This is Lakewood shopping center.
Mr. BALL - Do you have an alternative route through there?
Mr. McWATTERS - No, in other words, that is where the main thoroughfare starts right there at Gaston Avenue. Gaston right here which is the main street when you leave this shopping center.
Mr. BALL - You went down Gaston to Pacific?
Mr. McWATTERS - Went down Gaston to, let's see this is Hawkins Street right here.
Mr. BALL - Then you went left on Hawkins to Elm?
Mr. McWATTERS - To Elm Street, yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Then you went on Elm.
Mr. McWATTERS - Went from Elm to, this would be Houston Street.
Mr. BALL - Turned on Houston Street viaduct?
Mr. McWATTERS - Left on Houston Street.
Mr. BALL - To Marsalis?
Mr. McWATTERS - In other words, this is the Houston Street viaduct and this is Marsalis where you turn and come off Houston Street viaduct.
Mr. BALL - Then you go south how far?
Mr. McWATTERS - Go south all the way to, let's see, it is Ann Arbor. This is all Marsalis right here.
Mr. BALL - A straight run south?
Mr. McWATTERS - Straight run.
Mr. BALL - Then you make a turn and go back?
Mr. McWATTERS - I make a turn, in other words, on Ann Arbor and in other words, just circle, make a loop, just circle right around this little shopping center here.
Mr. BALL - And go back.
Mr. McWATTERS - And right back down Marsalis.
Mr. BALL - Marsalis is how far from Beckley?
Mr. McWATTERS - Marsalis is, let's see--
Mr. BALL - This is Beckley here?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - You can count the streets there, can you?
Mr. McWATTERS - In other words, it would be seven blocks.
Mr. BALL - Seven blocks, Beckley is seven blocks west of Marsalis, is that correct?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Your bus line doesn't run down Beckley?
Mr. McWATTERS - No, sir.
Mr. BALL - It doesn't run seven blocks, close to Beckley? Have you seen this? Here is Beckley and here is Marsalis, the bus line. Is there a bus route on Beckley?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir; there is.
Mr. BALL - Can you get a bus that goes down Beckley some place around Houston and Elm?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir; the bus comes, the Beckley bus comes in on St. Paul and Elm, in other words, at the time that I was, before we started, in other words, that is where the Beckley bus enters Elm Street there and then he goes the same route through town.
Mr. BALL - Same route you go down to the Houston viaduct?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes. In other words, after the Book Depository down there, he goes straight on.
Mr. BALL - Let me ask you this: The Beckley bus, the bus that will take you south on Beckley, has a starting point the same place as yours at St. Paul and Elm?
Mr. McWATTERS - St. Paul, in other words, the time element is the same. In other words, he comes in there.
Mr. BALL - Then that Beckley bus goes west on Elm the same as your bus?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - But instead of turning south on the Houston Street viaduct the Beckley bus goes straight west on Elm, doesn't it?
Mr. McWATTERS - That is correct.
Mr. BALL - Can you show us the bus stop for the Beckley bus on this Commission Exhibit No. 361?
Mr. McWATTERS - Well, yes; his last bus stop would be right here at the corner of--
Mr. BALL - Let's put a mark on this. Here is a red pencil, and put a mark on this in red and show us the place where the Beckley bus would stop.
Mr. McWATTERS - It would stop--in other words, we consider this corner of this intersection right here, any letter or what.
Mr. BALL - Just put a rectangular mark about the size of a bus indicating bus stop--take black ink and indicating a place where the bus would stop.
Mr. McWATTERS - In other words, the bus would stop along in this place right here.
Mr. BALL - All right, now that is bus stop for Beckley bus.
Mr. McWATTERS - That is bus stop for Beckley bus.
Mr. BALL - Northeast corner Houston and Elm.
Mr. McWATTERS - Northeast corner of Houston and Elm.
Mr. BALL - The Beckley bus goes on across directly in front of the Texas School Book Depository Building?
Mr. McWATTERS - That is correct.
Mr. BALL - As your bus gets into another lane of traffic and does not stop at Houston and Elm and makes a turn south on Houston.
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Then the Beckley bus stop, the stop of the Beckley bus, which is in black ink on the northeast corner of Houston and Elm, we will mark that with a big "B" which stands for Beckley bus.
Representative FORD - How long have you been on this run that you had the day of November 22?
Mr. McWATTERS - I worked this run for, I would say, this is the, second year. This makes 2 years that I worked this.
Representative FORD - Two years consecutively?
Mr. McWATTERS - 2 years consecutively that I have been on this run and worked it.
Representative FORD - So you would be familiar with the route?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir; just like I say. I worked it, this is the second year that I have worked the same, in other words, the same hours, and the same route.
Representative FORD - How many hours a day do you work this route?
Mr. McWATTERS - Well, now, this one particular route right here, I work it only 2 hours and 35 minutes.
Representative FORD - Each day?
Mr. McWATTERS - Each day.
Representative FORD - How many days a week?
Mr. McWATTERS - 5 days, Monday through Friday. And after that, in other words, I work on another a different bus line.
But this one particular one here is just 2 hours and 35 minutes each day.
Representative FORD - When you say a different bus line, you mean the same company but a different route?
Mr. McWATTERS - A different route.
Representative FORD - You would be familiar with the time schedules and all of the stops on this particular route from your 2 years experience?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir.
Senator COOPER - May I ask a question?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir.
Senator COOPER - Have you testified that you saw this passenger whom you later recognized in the lineup, get on the bus in the vicinity of Murphy Street--is Murphy Street on your right?
Mr. McWATTERS - Murphy Street is the street that, in other words, that comes in--
Senator COOPER - Does it run into Elm Street?
Mr. McWATTERS - It runs into Elm Street, it dead ends, in other words, into Elm Street.
Here is Field Street, in other words, across this intersection and we stopped across the intersection of Field, and Murphy Street comes in to the intersection at about where the bus stops, in other words, where Field Street stops and I guess that Griffin is the next small street that comes in just, it is just a short distance below.
Senator COOPER - Well, did the passenger that you have testified about, and whom you stated that you later identified, did he get on in the vicinity of Murphy Street?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir.
Senator COOPER - Murphy Street--you proceeded from Murphy Street toward the Texas School Book Depository?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir.
Senator COOPER - Is that correct?
Mr. McWATTERS - That is correct.
Senator COOPER - Was the passenger that got on near Murphy Street the same passenger that you later have testified about who told you that the President had been shot in the temple?
Mr. McWATTERS - Well, they told me later that it was, but at the time they didn't tell me.
Senator COOPER - Who didn't tell you?
Mr. McWATTERS - The police didn't.
Senator COOPER - When you say this passenger got on near Murphy Street, was there anything about him that caused you to take notice of him particularly?
Mr. McWATTERS - Well, no, sir. I wouldn't say there was. He was, I would say, he didn't have on no suit or anything, he had on, I believe, some type of jacket, cloth jacket.
Senator COOPER - What caused you to remember him getting on?
Mr. McWATTERS - What caused me to remember?
Senator COOPER - Yes; at the time he got on.
Mr. McWATTERS - Because, the reason I remembered exactly because I didn't put out but two transfers, and that, in other words, from where he got on and everything, I didn't have but one, there wasn't but one man on the bus and that was the teenage boy, when he got on the bus, in other words, when he got off, he was the only man except the teenage boy who was on the bus at the time.
Senator COOPER - Now was this man that you saw got on the bus the same one who told you that the President had been shot in the temple?
Mr. McWATTERS - The man who got on the bus now?
Senator COOPER - Yes. The man to whom you have just referred as getting on the bus near Murphy Street.
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes.
Senator COOPER - Is he the same man who told you that the President had been shot in the temple?
Mr. McWATTERS - No, sir.
Senator COOPER - Who told you that?
Mr. McWATTERS - A man in an automobile in front of me, in other words, that was sitting in a car come back and told me.
Senator COOPER - Told you what?
Mr. McWATTERS - That the President had been shot, that he had heard over his radio in his car that the President had been shot.
Senator COOPER - I think you have testified that someone, some passenger on the bus, in response to a question that you had asked, "I wonder where they shot the President" said, "They shot him in the temple."
Mr. McWATTERS - Oh, that was now, that was after we had done, that is when I turned on Houston Street, the conversation with the teenage boy.
Senator COOPER - It was the teenage boy who told you that?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir; it was the teenage boy, sitting on his right side of the side seat there, the one that I conversationed with about the President being shot in the head or the temple, I don't remember, but the teenage boy was the one.
That was after the man that already got off that had boarded my bus up around Griffin there.
Senator COOPER - Then the one who told you the President had been shot in the temple was not the one you later identified in the police lineup?
Mr. McWATTERS - No, sir.
Senator COOPER - This probably has been testified to, but where did the man that you later identified in the police lineup get off the bus?
Mr. McWATTERS - Got off between Poydras and Lamar Street.
Senator COOPER - Was that after you crossed over the viaduct or before?
Mr. McWATTERS - No, sir; that was before I crossed over.
Senator COOPER - When did the teenage boy get off the bus?
Mr. McWATTERS - He got off at Oak Cliff, I believe. He got off at Marsalis and Brownley.
Senator COOPER - Was that after the bus had crossed the viaduct?
Mr. McWATTERS - That is after the bus had--
Senator COOPER - Past the Texas Depository?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir; that is about 3 or 4 miles out in the Oak Cliff section where the teenage boy got off of the bus.
Senator COOPER - From the time the man got on the bus, which you later identified in the police lineup until he got off, had you noticed him, had you looked at him again?
Mr. McWATTERS - Had I looked at him again?
Senator COOPER - Yes.
Mr. McWATTERS - Not until just like I say he was sitting--I was talking to this teenage boy and he was sitting right behind this boy, but I didn't pay him any particular attention, to the man.
Senator COOPER - You saw him get on the bus?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes.
Senator COOPER - Did you see him get off?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes; I gave him a transfer when he got off the bus, the same place that was, the same place I was stopped where the man come back and stepped up in the bus and told me what he had heard over his radio in his car, the same place that the lady got off, with a suitcase, is the place that the man got off.
Senator COOPER - The man you later identified in the police lineup?
Mr. McWATTERS - That is correct; yes, sir.
Senator COOPER - Did you pay any particular attention to him when he got off?
Mr. McWATTERS - Not no more than I did than, I think, when he got on.
Senator COOPER - Do you remember anything about his clothes or his general appearance in any way?
Mr. McWATTERS - Just like I say, I remember he had on, to me he had on just work clothes, he didn't have on a suit of clothes, and some type of jacket. I would say a cloth jacket.

Senator COOPER - I believe that is all.
Mr. BALL - You didn't--as I understand it, when you were at the police lineup, you told us that you didn't--weren't able to identify this man in the lineup as the man who got off, that you gave the transfer to.
Mr. McWATTERS - I told them to the best of my knowledge, I said the man that I picked out was the same height, about the same height, weight and description. But as far as actually saying that is the man I couldn't--
Mr. BALL - You couldn't do it?
Mr. McWATTERS - I wouldn't do it and I wouldn't do it now.
Mr. BALL - You signed an affidavit for the Dallas Police Department, do you remember that?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - I will show you a copy of it, we can get the original if you want, but there is a copy of it, a picture taken of it. Will you read it, please?
(At this point, Representative Ford withdrew from the hearing room.)
Mr. BALL - This document, I would like to have marked as 377, at this time, Commission Exhibit, with the understanding that we may substitute the photostat for the original.

Senator COOPER - Very well; let it be substituted. It has been identified, and will be identified.
Mr. BALL - Yes, it will be; I will identify it for the record as a photostat of an affidavit of Cecil J. McWatters made before Patsy Collins, Notary Public of Dallas County, Tex. November 22, 1963.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit 377, and received in evidence.)
Mr. BALL - Now, having read that, first of all, does that look like your signature, Mr. McWatters?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir; it does.
Mr. BALL - Do you remember the circumstances under which you made that affidavit?
Mr. McWATTERS - Well, I just told them the best I could remember.
Mr. BALL - I am showing this to you for the purpose of refreshing your memory.
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, I know.
Mr. BALL - I know it has been several months.
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, I know what you mean.
Mr. BALL - And sometimes when you see something that you signed before it refreshes your memory.
Mr. McWATTERS - It sure does.
Yes, that is what you mean, I know what you mean, I said that looked like the man I saw.
Mr. BALL - In this affidavit, it says, it mentions the fact that when you went to Marsalis and picked up a woman.
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes.
Mr. BALL - You asked her if she knew the President had been shot, you told us about that a few moments ago.
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes.
Mr. BALL - She thought you were kidding, and you told her, "I told her if she didn't believe me to ask the man behind her, that he had told me the President was shot in the temple."
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Was the man, was that the teenager?
Mr. McWATTERS - That is right, sir, that was the teenage boy. In other words, he was, I would say, around 17 or 18 years old.
Mr. BALL - You said here, "The man didn't say anything but he was grinning."
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Do you think that happened?
Mr. McWATTERS - Well, when the lady asked him, he just kind of grinned, in other words, and she said, "This is not a grinning or laughing matter," or something to that effect I don't remember just exactly what she did say.
Mr. BALL - Now you told them at that time you didn't know where you let this man off.
Mr. McWATTERS - That is right, I didn't at that time, I didn't know where he got off.
Mr. BALL - You told us a few moments ago you thought he got off another place.
Mr. McWATTERS - That is right, sir.
Mr. BALL - What was that place?
Mr. McWATTERS - He got off at Brownley, because the man rode with me the next day.
Mr. BALL - You went out there the next day, did you?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - With an FBI man or a Dallas policeman?
Mr. McWATTERS - No, I mean--
Mr. BALL - The same teenager?
Mr. McWATTERS - The same teenager rode with me the next day.
Mr. BALL - And you noticed he got off there?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, and I noticed, and I asked him, like I told him, I said that I was--I thought that, you know, that he was, when he first got on down there, I says, "From all indications, we had you kind of pinpointed as the man who might have been mixed up in the assassination and everything." And--
Mr. BALL - Do I understand the day after you made the affidavit, this would be the 23d of November?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes.
Mr. BALL - That this same teenager got on your bus again?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, he got on.
Mr. BALL - And you noticed where you let him off?
Mr. McWATTERS - I noticed where I let him off, yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Is that the reason that today you remember he got off?
Mr. McWATTERS - That is it today I remember, just like I say, I remember I talked to him the next day, and he told me where he got on, and he told me where he got on, and where he got off and where he lived, and, you know that--
Mr. BALL - Has he been on your bus since?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes.
Mr. BALL - He has?
Mr. McWATTERS - He has rode with me since.
Mr. BALL - Yes. I see. Did you give him a transfer that day?
Mr. McWATTERS - No, because he gets on and he lives within about two blocks of the busline, in other words, where he gets off.
Mr. BALL - Do you know this boy's name?
Mr. McWATTERS - I believe his name is Milton Jones.
Mr. BALL - Milton Jones?
Mr. McWATTERS - Milton Jones. I don't believe I know where he lives, but I pass where he lives. But he told me his name was Milton Jones and he told me he was 17.
Mr. BALL - Did he ever tell you where he works?
Mr. McWATTERS - He told me that, I believe, he goes to school half a day, I believe he said and I believe he goes home and he has a part-time job, but he never did state where he works.
Mr. BALL - Did he tell you where he went to school?
Mr. McWATTERS - No, sir; he never did tell me where he went to school.
Mr. BALL - Or where he worked?
Mr. McWATTERS - Where he worked, either one.
Mr. BALL - You notice in the affidavit there it says, "This man"--referring to the man who was grinning--
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes.
Mr. BALL - "This man looks like the No. 1 man I saw in the lineup today."
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Who was the No. 2 man you saw in the lineup on November 22, 1963?
Mr. McWATTERS - Well, just like I say, he was the shortest man in the lineup, in other words, when they brought these men out there, in other words, he was about the shortest, and the lightest weight one, I guess, was the reason I say that he looked like the man, because the rest of them were larger men than--
Mr. BALL - Well, now, at that time, when you saw the lineup--
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Were you under the impression that this man that you saw in the lineup and whom you pointed out to the police, was the teenage boy who had been grinning?
Mr. McWATTERS - I was, yes, sir; I was under the impression--
Mr. BALL - That was the fellow?
Mr. McWATTERS - That was the fellow.
Mr. BALL - You were not under the impression then that night when you saw the lineup that the No. 2 man in the lineup was the man who got off the bus, to whom you had given a transfer?
Mr. McWATTERS - That is what I say. In other words, when I told them, I said, the only way is the man, that he is smaller, in other words, he kind of had a thin like face and he weighs less than any one of them. The only one I could identify at all would be the smaller man on account he was the only one who could come near fitting the description.
Mr. BALL - Let me ask you this, though. Did you tell them the man, the smaller man, you saw in the lineup, did you tell them that you thought he was the man who got off your bus and got the transfer or the man who was on the bus who was the teenager who was grinning?
Mr. McWATTERS - Well, I really thought he was the man who was on the bus.
Mr. BALL - That stayed on the bus?
Mr. McWATTERS - That stayed on the bus.
Mr. BALL - And you didn't think he was the man who got off the bus and to whom you gave a transfer?
Mr. McWATTERS - No, sir.
Mr. BALL - At that time you didn't?
Mr. McWATTERS - That is why I say I pinpointed that transfer on that boy as far as that is concerned. But at first, just like I say, I really thought from the height and weight of the two men, 1 mean was just like I say, was both of them were small. In the lineup they had, in other words, bigger men, in other words, he was the smallest man at the lineup-
Mr. BALL - We have got--we have this diagram that you have already drawn of the bus which has several initials on it. Could you tell me where on the bus this lady sat who told the teenager it was no grinning matter?
Mr. McWATTERS - Well, now, that is, in other words, I don't think at that time now this teenager was still on the bus near, but I had a couple of more passengers on there, I believe I had two women on there, but I can't recall just, when I picked her up where she sat down on the bus.
Mr. BALL - Do you remember you said to the woman, "Look at that man behind you?"
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, she was standing up here at the fare, paying fare.
Mr. BALL - And the teenager was where?
Mr. McWATTERS - He was sitting right here.
Mr. BALL - At the place "O", is that right?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, at the place "O".
Mr. BALL - I see--
Mr. McWATTERS - That is where the conversation was going on.
Mr. BALL - Mr. McWatters, that affidavit you have there, will you look at another item you have there?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - "Today, November 22, 1963, about 12:40 p.m., I was driving Marsalis Bus No. 1213."
Mr. McWATTERS - That is right.
Mr. BALL - First of all, you have referred to that as another bus, Munger Bus, is that the same bus?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir; in other words, that number there is my run number right here on my card.
Mr. BALL - I understand that, but do you call that run the Marsalis run as well as the Munger run?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir. Well, here you can--let me show you here on this schedule right here, Marsalis, Ramona, Elwood and Munger.
Mr. BALL - Can we take this and have a Xerox--
Mr. McWATTERS - You can just take the whole thing.
Mr. BALL - All right. We will have a Xerox of this and mark it 378, a Xerox copy.
Will you identify that document and tell me what it is?
The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit 378, for identification.)
Mr. McWATTERS - This is a schedule, I will just say a bus schedule.
Mr. BALL - That is for the Marsalis-Ramona-Elwood-Munger run?
Mr. McWATTERS - That is correct.
Mr. BALL - Run 1213. Is this the run schedule that was in effect on November 22, 1963?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. BALL - It shows here at St. Paul you were to leave at 12:36; is that correct?
Mr. McWATTERS - That is correct.
Mr. BALL - We will make a photostat of that and we will give you back the original.
Mr. McWATTERS - You can keep that if you want to. They made another copy of it.
Mr. BALL - All right, then, we will keep this as an original. Can this be introduced into evidence, Senator?
Senator COOPER - Yes, let it be made a part of the evidence.
(The document heretofore marked for identification as Commission Exhibit No. 378, was received in evidence.)
Mr. BALL - I have a few more questions to ask you, a few more questions, Mr. McWatters.
Let's look again at this affidavit.
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - "I picked up a man on the lower end of town on Elm around Houston," as I remember you didn't stop at Elm and Houston; you stopped at Record and Houston for a pickup.
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Do you remember having picked up any man around the lower end of town at Elm around Houston?
Mr. McWATTERS - Elm and Houston?
Mr. BALL - Yes.
Mr. McWATTERS - No, no, sir; I didn't pick up. I made a statement here I picked up--
Mr. BALL - Take a look at it, "I picked up a man on the lower end of town on Elm around Houston."
Mr. McWATTERS - No, I didn't. I picked--"I picked a man up at the lower end of town at Elm," no, sir, I didn't pick up no man.
No, I was tied up in traffic there. Market Street is the--I must not have read that very good when I signed that, because I sure didn't. No, I didn't.
Mr. BALL - Did you pick up a man at Record and Houston?
Mr. McWATTERS - No, sir.
Mr. BALL - You didn't?
Mr. McWATTERS - No, sir; that is not even no stop.
Mr. BALL - In other words, this statement is not an accurate statement?
Mr. McWATTERS - That is right, sir, because in fact that day the police wouldn't let nobody, in other words they run them buses through but they wouldn't let nothing stop there, in other words.
Mr. BALL - Let's get back to that lineup.
Did you pick out one man or two men that night as people you had seen, as a person you had seen before?
Mr. McWATTERS - Well, I picked out, the only one that I told them it was the short man that I picked out up there.
Mr. BALL - And you thought he was the teenager whom you described?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, first that is what I thought he was.
Mr. BALL - Now you have named him Milton Jones.
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, he was--
Mr. BALL - Now you realize you were mistaken in your identification that night?
Mr. McWATTERS - That is right.
Mr. BALL - As I understand it, neither then nor now are you able to identify or say that you have again seen the man that got off your bus to whom you gave a transfer?
Mr. McWATTERS - No, sir; I couldn't. I could not identify him.
Mr. BALL - This Beckley bus that we talked about, remember the one that has the starting point at St. Paul and Elm--
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - The same as your bus, the Marsalis bus?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes.
Mr. BALL - What is the difference in the time run, what time does the Beckley bus leave--let me withdraw the question. Your bus leaves St. Paul and Elm at 12:36, scheduled to leave there as of November 22d?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Using the same schedule, can you tell me at what time around 12:30 or so that the Beckley bus would leave Elm and St. Paul and proceed westerly on Elm?
Mr. McWATTERS - He is scheduled in there the same time as I am, 12:36.
Mr. BALL - 12:36. Was that bus in the line?
Mr. McWATTERS - No. In other words, that bus was behind me, in other words, because when I got there as a general rule, when we pull up there every day, in other words, I am coming in one direction and he is another, in other words, most every day, we will pull up at this intersection at the same time.

Now, whichever way the light changes is who gets, in other words, who gets in front of who. But at that day, I am sure that I was ahead of the Beckley bus.
Mr. BALL - You are sure you were ahead of it?
Mr. McWATTERS - Because there wasn't another bus in front of me. I was the first bus down there that was tied up in there in the traffic.
Mr. BALL - Did you see the Beckley bus?
Mr. McWATTERS - No, sir.
Mr. BALL - You don't remember whether he was behind you or not?
Mr. McWATTERS - I don't remember whether he was behind me or not.
Mr. BALL - Can you transfer from your bus to the Beckley bus?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir; sure can.
Mr. BALL - Any particular transfer point?
Mr. McWATTERS - Well, there are particular transfer points, but we don't question anybody within the downtown section with a transfer.
Mr. BALL - If you gave a transfer to your bus, then that transfer would be good on a Beckley bus any place along Elm, wouldn't it?
Mr. McWATTERS - That is right, it sure would.
Mr. BALL - Up to the place where you change courses?
Mr. McWATTERS - It would be accepted; yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Your course is westerly on Elm, is identical with that of the Beckley bus between St. Paul and Houston, isn't it?
Mr. McWATTERS - That is correct.
Mr. BALL - And from that point you go south on Houston, and the Beckley bus continues west on Elm?
Mr. McWATTERS - That is correct.
Mr. BALL - So that would be a normal transfer point, wouldn't it?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Houston and Elm?
Mr. McWATTERS - That would be a transfer. In other words, now, like I say, Lamar is the general transfer point of where all the buses cross.
Mr. BALL - Now, that night of the lineup, when you identified this one short man--
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes.
Mr. BALL - As being probably the teenager that had been on the bus--
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Was there anything unusual in the conduct of anyone in the lineup?
Mr. McWATTERS - No.
Mr. BALL - Did any man in the lineup talk more than anyone else?
Mr. McWATTERS - No, I believe they had a guy that asked them their address, and they said, "address" and I don't know, he asked them, I believe he asked some of them where they lived or some of them where they worked, or I don't remember just what, in other words, he asked some enough, every one of them to say some few words.
Mr. BALL - You could hear them talk?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir; you could hear them talk.
Mr. BALL - Was any one man boisterous, mean, loud, anything of that sort?
Mr. McWATTERS - No, not that I could tell any difference. They all talked to me as, in other words, you just asked them their name and address. If they did, I didn't pay any attention to it.
(At this point, Representative Ford entered the hearing room.)
Mr. BALL - This is Exhibit No. 376 that I will show you again. You have indicated on the map the course of your bus south on Marsalis. Is there any other bus route that goes south on any street east of Marsalis?
Mr. McWATTERS - You mean that crosses it this way?
Mr. BALL - No, goes south.
Mr. McWATTERS - Well, let's see.
Mr. BALL - Is there a main highway called Denley? Is there a bus route on Ewing?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir. Bus route on Ewing.
Mr. BALL - That goes south on Ewing?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Does that bus come anywhere near, does that bus run down Elm?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Where does it turn to get to Ewing?
Mr. McWATTERS - In other words, it turns, it goes just like the Marsalis bus here goes, until he gets--
Mr. BALL - Let's start up at Elm here, Elm and Houston now. Does the bus that goes down Ewing come west on Elm?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Does it go by St. Paul and Elm?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Have a starting point there?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir; it is a final point for it right there.
Mr. BALL - And it goes west on Elm?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Where does it turn off Elm?
Mr. McWATTERS - It turns the same place as I do, in other words.
Mr. BALL - South on Houston?
Mr. McWATTERS - South on Houston.
Mr. BALL - And then does it go across the Houston Street viaduct?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Then it turns on, how does it get onto Ewing?
Mr. McWATTERS - It comes on out to Marsalis to, let's see, I have to find the zoo. That is where it turns right there at the Marsalis Park, and turns and goes over to Ewing, let's see, what is the name of that--this bus turns to the left off Marsalis there, it is a park--there is a big expressway there and it is the first street when it crosses over the expressway where it turns off of Marsalis on Opera. The name of the bus is Ramona, it is the same, in other words, it is the same line as this other one.
Mr. BALL - As I understand it now the bus that goes down Ewing comes off the Houston Street viaduct as far as, comes down he Houston Street viaduct as far as Marsalis, does it?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir; and it goes south on Marsalis.
Mr. BALL - It goes south on Marsalis?
Mr. McWATTERS - That is right.
Mr. BALL - And it turns over to Ewing, that would be east on Ewing?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes; that would be east.
Mr. BALL - At or about what point?
Mr. McWATTERS - Well, in other words, that is the Marsalis Zoo is where it is, after you cross the expressway there, it is the first street, Opera is the name of that and it goes right down to Ewing.
Mr. BALL - Then at the corner of 11th, at the intersection of 11th and Marsalis both buses travel the same route?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir; they sure do. Both buses travel the same route to Marsalis and the Ramona bus on that part travel the same route.
Mr. BALL - Probably on the same route.
Now, I show you this document which is the bus schedule of Marsalis-Ramona-Elwood- Munger, and it shows you leave St. Paul at 12:36 and you arrive at Lamar 12:40.
The bus transfers are punched you told me for 1 o'clock. We have a transfer here that you have seen or we will show you in a few minutes as soon as it gets here, which has a punch mark of 1 o'clock. You told Senator Cooper that you usually punched within 15 minutes of the time you reached the transfer points?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes.
Mr. BALL - If that is the case, what--
Mr. McWATTERS - You mean why did I have it punched at 1 o'clock?
Mr. BALL - Yes.
Mr. McWATTERS - Because I punch it p.m. In other words, I have a punch, I am going to Lakewood, I mean I am going Marsalis and I am going back Lakewood, so I just take me two books of transfers. Instead of punching one of them a.m. and one p.m. I just punched them p.m.
Mr. BALL - Do you punch within 15 minutes of the time you reach the transfer points?
Mr. McWATTERS - That is the way that the transfers are supposed to be cut.
Mr. BALL - Well, if you reach Lamar, if you were to reach Lamar at 12:40, what time, according to the rules should you punch it?
Mr. McWATTERS - I should have punched it at 12:45.
Mr. BALL - At 12:45?
Mr. McWATTERS - But I would have to punch one book a.m. and another one p.m., so I just punched both of them p.m.
Mr. BALL - In other words, what you do is punch on the hour rather than the 45 and 15 minutes usually?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes.
Mr. BALL - In other words, your usual practice is not to punch on the 15-minute interval, is that right, but to punch on the hour?
Mr. McWATTERS - Well, just like I say within the closest of the hour like that, in other words.
Mr. BALL - Suppose today you were wanting to punch some transfers at the end of the line and you knew you were going to get to Lamar at 12:40. Would you punch--what would you punch it?
Mr. McWATTERS - I work that run all the time, I punch at 1 o'clock every day. As I say I worked it 2 years and as I say in order to keep from punching one of them a.m. and one p.m., for the difference in the hour there, I just punch them p.m.
Mr. BALL - I don't quite understand that. Doesn't your p.m. start at after 12 o'clock?
Mr. McWATTERS - Well, the way the transfers are there, did you notice how they was, they run them until--see how 12:45 there, in other words, that is what they use that up to a.m. in other words.
Mr. BALL - It is 12:45 a.m., it runs up to a.m.
Mr. McWATTERS - That is what they run it to a.m. In other words, after 12:45 or in there, in other words, everything is punched p.m.
Mr. BALL - In other words, everything in the hour from 12 on is punched a.m., the day time, 12 to one is a.m., 12 to 12:45, for that hour, a transfer good in that hour is punched a.m., is that right?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, it can be punched a.m. up to, just like 12:45.
Mr. BALL - And the next punch is 1 o'clock and that is p.m?
Mr. McWATTERS - That is p.m.; yes, sir. That is the way they have them.
Representative FORD - The day that you punched this particular transfer. November 22?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir.
Representative FORD - You punched them the same that day as you did every other day?
Mr. McWATTERS - That is right. Every day, in other words, I just punch them p.m. I punch them p.m., and in other words, so it will be just a straight cut across it.
Representative FORD - Is that the usual practice for all bus drivers to use this practice?
Mr. McWATTERS - The practice they are supposed to cut them within the quarter of the hour, but in other words, I just have been working that run and I just, it is p.m., and I just make one trip one way and one, back the other, and so I--all I carry are two books of transfers and so I just punch two books p.m., using one going one way at 1 o'clock and the other coming back at 2.
Representative FORD - This is the practice you have used for 2 years approximately?
Mr. McWATTERS - That is right, when I worked that run, in other words, when I am going one way at 1 o'clock, coming back from the other end of the line I set them at 2. I am back in there at, my next trip I am back in there at Lamar Street, I think it is 1:38 but I always just set them at 2 o'clock.
Mr. BALL - We have a couple of more pictures here. 378 and 379 which are pictures of the interior of the bus--Nos. 379 and 380.
(Picture marked for identification as Commission Exhibit No. 374 is the same as Commission Exhibit No. 379.)
I will first show you 379. Is that a picture of the bus from front to rear of your bus?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir; that is the front and that is the rear.
Mr. BALL - Here is 380, is that a picture of the bus taken from the front taken looking towards the rear?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - I offer these in evidence, too.
Representative FORD - So admitted.
(The pictures referred to were marked Commission's Exhibits Nos. 379 and 380 and received in evidence.)
Mr. BALL - I have here an exhibit which I would like to have marked as 381 which can be identified as a transfer issued by Dallas Transit Company, Friday, November 22, 1963.

Do you identify it, can you tell me, if you have ever seen that transfer before?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, that is my punch mark right on that there; p.m.
(The transfer was marked Commission Exhibit No. 381 for identification.)
Mr. BALL - You issued it, did you?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Tell me when you issued it, on what run?
Mr. McWATTERS - I issued it on Marsalis and Munger line at I would say, around to the best of my knowledge it would be around 12:40 or somewheres in that vicinity on November 22.
Mr. BALL - And it has your punch mark, has it?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir; that is my punch mark.
Mr. BALL - Identify it punched in the p.m. section?
Mr. McWATTERS - Of the Lakewood column here on the transfer.
Mr. BALL - When did you punch it exactly? Where were you when you punched it?
Mr. McWATTERS - I punched it before I left the end of the line, in other words.
Mr. BALL - This is number 004459, is the transfer number. Entitled "The Shoppers Transfer." Every transfer has a separate number, has it?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir; everyone has a separate number.
Mr. BALL - What we would like to do is mark a photostat of the, transfer as 381A and substitute the photostat and we can return the transfer to the custody of the FBI.
Representative FORD - The exhibit will be admitted.
(The photostat referred to was marked Commission Exhibit 381A and received in evidence.)
Representative FORD - How many of those transfers did you issue on this particular run?
Mr. McWATTERS - Well--
Representative FORD - Up to the time you passed the Texas School Depository.
Mr. McWATTERS - I really don't know because I didn't, see, I didn't know anything--I didn't put out any--most of the transfers that you put out at this time or that time of day are for elderly women which get the shopper's transfers, in other words. It has got a line there, and it entitles them to a free ride back to where they came from in other words, and that time of the morning, because when I get downtown, in other words, you can catch a bus at Elm Street going to any place that I would go without having a transfer, in other words.
Representative FORD - Would you have any recollection of how many passengers you picked up from the beginning of the line to the time that this man got on at the middle of the block on Elm Street?
Mr. McWATTERS - Well, I don't--I recall that I didn't have very many passengers that day, because I figured that everybody had done gone to town to see the parade, to see the President, and it just wasn't what few passengers I recall was mostly elderly women that was going into town. I don't recall just how many of them I did have on the bus.
Representative FORD - But you did have these two men, the teenager and this other young man?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir; that were on the bus.
Representative FORD - And you very specifically recall giving a transfer to this woman with the suitcase and the man who was in the second seat on the right-hand side?
Mr. McWATTERS - On the right side that got off. In other words, to the best of my knowledge that is the only two transfers that I put out going through town that I can recall at all, I mean, because I don't recall putting out any more transfers than those two that I put out when I was held up there in traffic.
Mr. BALL - Mr. McWatters, on this transfer is the name of Shopper's Transfer. Does that have any significance?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir; that is what I was telling him. In other words, if they want a Shoppers; well I put my punch mark in that Shoppers there, which they cannot use it for a transfer, in other words, any more than other than--all the stores, most of them in downtown Dallas, if you buy as much as a dollar's worth between the period of ten and four in the afternoon they give you a little white slip which entitled you to ride what is called the Shopper's Pass. It rides you back, but in other words you have to, a passenger has to, ask for it in other words.
When they say a Shopper, you take a punch and punch your punch mark where it says Shoppers, but they are not supposed to use the transfer then to transfer to another bus. They are supposed, in other words, where it is punched in the store, get it exchanged for their return fare.
Mr. BALL - In other words, all your transfers have on them printed the word "Shopper's Transfer"?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir; they do.
Mr. BALL - And in order to make it a Shopper's Transfer so that the transfer can be exchanged for a merchandise coupon to ride home, it has to have your punch in the Shopper's Transfer area, is that right?
Mr. McWATTERS - That is correct, yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Did you know, did you remember, an elderly woman getting on your bus some place on Elm after you left St. Paul?
Mr. McWATTERS - Not that I recall.
Mr. BALL - Do you remember when this man, do you remember when this man knocked on your window, and you opened your bus and let him on, some place around Murphy or Griffin and Elm, that an elderly woman got up in the bus and moved?
Did you see that or anything like that?
Mr. McWATTERS - No, I don't recall.
Mr. BALL - Do you know whether or not you left an elderly woman off down around in the Oak Cliff area some place?
Mr. McWATTERS - The best I can recall I had two or three or four elderly women, the best I can remember on the bus when I left town, but I don't recall where any of them got off.
Mr. BALL - Do you know a woman named Mary Bledsoe? Did you pick anybody up at St. Paul and Elm?
Mr. McWATTERS - I really don't--I really can't recall whether I did or not.
Mr. BALL - I have no further questions.
Senator COOPER - I would like to ask a few, if I may.
Am I correct in saying that the direction of your bus at the time of these events you have testified to it was going west on Elm Street?
Mr. McWATTERS - West on Elm. In other words, west, the streets of Dallas all run east and west.
Senator COOPER - But when you got to Houston Street, then you turned south?
Mr. McWATTERS - I turned south, that is correct.
Senator COOPER - Did your bus pass the Texas School Book Depository?
Mr. McWATTERS - Well--
Senator COOPER - I mean does it pass it directly?
Mr. McWATTERS - It doesn't pass it directly, no, sir. In other words, where I turn to the left on Houston Street, the book store is across on the opposite corner.
Senator COOPER - Now, as you reached Lamar Street, or did you reach Lamar Street on that date before you passed near the Texas School Book Depository?
Mr. McWATTERS - You mean--yes, I have to pass Lamar Street before I get down to there.
Senator COOPER - Now, this first affidavit you made on November 22--
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir.
Senator COOPER - Which has been referred to in the testimony.
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes.
Senator COOPER - It stated in this affidavit that, "I picked up a man on the lower end of town on Elm around Houston."
Now, you picked up a man at that time it would have been after you passed Lamar Street?
Mr. McWATTERS - It would have been after I passed Lamar.
Senator COOPER - The remainder of the affidavit, which has been made a part of the testimony
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes.
Senator COOPER - Refers to that you picked up a woman and you asked her if she knew the President had been shot, and then the man--you asked her then to speak to the man behind her.
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes.
Senator COOPER - "Who said the President was shot in the temple." Now, then, this incident that you testified to in this affidavit, was after you had passed Elm Street?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir; that is right.
Senator COOPER - Was the man that you were talking about in this affidavit the teenager?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir.
Senator COOPER - At the time this affidavit was made, were you asked about any other man who may have been on the run that day at that time?
Mr. McWATTERS - I don't remember whether I was or not.
Senator COOPER - What was it then that caused you at some time later to remember that another man had got on the bus near Murphy and had left the bus, as you have stated in 2 or 3 blocks in the vicinity of Elm Street?
Mr. McWATTERS - Well, just like I say, the best I can remember is the man, I believe in fact beside the boy, I believe he was the only man on board the bus. After I got to recall, in other words--
Senator COOPER - But what I am asking you is what it was that caused you to remember the teenager at the time you made this affidavit on the 22d, and what it was that, why it was that, you didn't at that time speak of the other man who had got on the bus?
Mr. McWATTERS - That is what I say, it just didn't--it just doesn't register, I don't know.
Senator COOPER - Were you asked whether or not any other man was on the bus?
Mr. McWATTERS - I don't remember whether I was or not.
Senator COOPER - When was it that you remembered about the second man being on the bus, the man that you now state got on around Murphy Street and got off at Elm?
Mr. McWATTERS - Well, I just studied and tried to remember everything that I could. In other words, I still, you know, just try to see if I could remember any incidents or anything that was said or done that I hadn't thought of and everything.
Senator COOPER - I think you stated you did not give the teenager any transfer?
Mr. McWATTERS - No, I don't--no.
Senator COOPER - Was the fact then that you were shown a transfer by the police that called your attention to that?
Mr. McWATTERS - I guess that would probably be--
Senator COOPER - Another man?
Mr. McWATTERS - That would probably be the reason.
I don't know of any other reason that it would be unless it was the transfer, that I can recall.
Senator COOPER - Are you absolutely certain that you did see another man on that bus?
Mr. McWATTERS - Do you mean the day?
Senator COOPER - A man other than the teenager?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir; I picked up a man.
Senator COOPER - Where?
Mr. McWATTERS - Along about Griffin Street that knocked on the door of the bus.
Senator COOPER - Is that near Murphy?
Mr. McWATTERS - That is near Murphy, in other words, Murphy is over here zig-zags, Griffin zig-zags across to Murphy.
Senator COOPER - Why was it then that when you made this affidavit, you wouldn't remember that a man knocked on the door to get in the bus?
Mr. McWATTERS - Just like I say, I guess it never did dawn on me until I just got to thinking about it and everything, and I had this boy, I mean was the one I was referring to in that affidavit right there.
In other words, he was just kind of a slight build, so far as him and Oswald, I guess they probably somewhere in the same size, I don't know. But I was mistaken in that, in other words, that was the boy right there--
Senator COOPER - Did the police ask you if any man other than the teenagers was on the bus?
Mr. McWATTERS - I don't recall whether they did or not.
Senator COOPER - Did you tell the police at that time on the 22d or the Federal Bureau of Investigation on the 23d about a man knocking on the window and wanting to get into the bus?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, I believe I did.
Senator COOPER - What is it about this transfer that makes you know that it was a transfer which you issued?
Mr. McWATTERS - Well, you look at that old punch mark, I guess as many times as I have punched it--
Senator COOPER - Does each--does each-driver have a different punch?
Mr. BALL - When you weren't here he showed us his punch and he punched it for us. He has got his punch.
Mr. McWATTERS - Each driver has a different punch. They all are registered. In other words, regardless of how many there are--that is my punch right there--there is some shape or form different, just like I say the superintendent has every man's name and a punch mark right on down, in other words, so when--
Senator COOPER - Do you know whether the punches are different in the shape that they make?
Mr. McWATTERS - No, sir; no, sir; I don't know anything about that. I know--
Senator COOPER - What you are saying is, then, you have punched so many of these transfer that you recognize your own punch?
Mr. McWATTERS - I can recognize my own punchmark. I don't think there is supposed to be another--
Senator COOPER - Is there anything else on the transfer which indicates that it was one which would be issued on your bus?
Mr. McWATTERS - Well, except only where it is punched--in other words, I come off of Lakewood Boulevard there where that would be the only distinction right there, is the punchmark and the name of where I have it punched there.
Senator COOPER - Did anyone tell you, either the police or the FBI or any other officer or any other person, tell you at the time you made your first affidavit or later that there was another man reported to have been on your bus and got off?
Mr. McWATTERS - I don't recall.
Senator COOPER - Have you ever reported to the police the fact that you have carried as a passenger since November 22d the teenager whom you have now identified as having the name of Milton Jones?
Mr. McWATTERS - Did I ever report it to the police?
Senator COOPER - Yes.
Mr. McWATTERS - No, sir.
Senator COOPER - Have they ever been back to talk to you any more about this?
Mr. McWATTERS - No, sir.
Senator COOPER - About this matter?
Mr. McWATTERS - They have never, been back to me. The only time they have talked to me
Senator COOPER - Did you ever see--
Mr. McWATTERS - I beg pardon?
Senator COOPER - You saw--was any of the men in the police lineup ever identified to you as being Lee Oswald?
Mr. McWATTERS - Any men in the--
Senator COOPER - Yes, I think you saw the men in the lineup, didn't you?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes.
Senator COOPER - Before you were asked to select a man in the lineup, did the police or any officer identify any one of them as bearing the name of Lee Oswald?
Mr. McWATTERS - No, sir; they never stated anything.
Senator COOPER - Later was he identified to you in any way?
Mr. McWATTERS - Was he identified to me?
Senator COOPER - As being Lee Oswald?
Mr. McWATTERS - No, they didn't tell me as far as saying, mentioning any name Lee Oswald, it was never, the name Lee Oswald, I don't believe was ever mentioned while we was back there.
Senator COOPER - Did you ever see this same man you call No. 2 in the lineup again--did you ever go back there after that time and see this same person again?
Mr. McWATTERS - No, sir.
Senator COOPER - Identified as No. 2?
Mr. McWATTERS - No, sir; I never did go back any more, that was the only time I was ever there was the one on November 22, about 6 something in the afternoon.
Senator COOPER - Have you seen photographs of a man who is named in those photographs as being Lee Oswald?
Mr. McWATTERS - Have I saw them?
Senator COOPER - Yes, sir.
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir.
Senator COOPER - Well, now, you have seen this young man, Milton Jones, several times since then?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir.
Senator COOPER - Now after having seen him several times since then, and having seen these photographs of the man who is identified as Lee Oswald--
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes.
Senator COOPER - Does Milton Jones look like Lee Oswald?
Mr. McWATTERS - Well, they both, just like I say, about the same height, and same build, and everything, as far as identifying looking at a man in the face of course, I know him now, distinctly.
Senator COOPER - But at this time would you identify him as Lee Oswald from the photographs you have seen of Lee Oswald?
Mr. McWATTERS - Right now?
Senator COOPER - Yes.
Mr. McWATTERS - No. At the time, I couldn't then, in other words, even from the recalling of what I seen him then, I mean just to say that the height and size of him, no, I wouldn't make the statement that I could now.
Senator COOPER - Are you certain that you did see some man who knocked on the window of your door of your bus and wanted to get in your bus at some point near Murphy?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir; I am positive about that. There was--
Senator COOPER - You saw that man get off later?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes.
Senator COOPER - Before you got to--
Mr. McWATTERS - Before I got to Lamar Street, between Poydras and Lamar.
Senator COOPER - That is all.
Mr. McWATTERS - The best I can remember is that is where I issued two transfers. That is the best I can remember.
Mr. BALL - To clear this matter up with your punch, you have your punch there, have you?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes.
Mr. BALL - That was issued to you by the Dallas Transit Company?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Does that make a different mark in a transfer than any other punch issued to any other driver in the Dallas Transit Company?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - It is a distinctive mark?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir; it is supposed to be, there is not supposed to be any driver that has a punch that makes a punchmark like my punch.
Mr. BALL - So your supervisor could take this transfer and compare it with his list in his office?
Mr. McWATTERS - That is right.
Mr. BALL - And he could see McWatters issued this transfer?
Mr. McWATTERS - That is right; that is the way, if they have any complaint, any transfers brought in to him, he has a list. When he looked at the punch-mark he knows the man's name, and his badge number.
Mr. BALL - And this document here which is 381, you have identified that punchmark as the one made by your punch?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir; that punchmark was made by that punch right there.
Mr. BALL - Now, there are on this transfer two punches, there is one in p.m., and there is marked punch Lakewood. Now, the p.m., refers to the time?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - But Lakewood refers to a certain location on your run, doesn't it?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - If this transfer was issued around the Lamar area or St. Paul--Elm area, is there any place that you could punch and show that particular location?
Mr. McWATTERS - No, sir.
Mr. BALL - You always punch at the end of your destination?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, that is the usual procedure on it.
Mr. BALL - Now, on one side of Lakewood is Beckley, where is that?
Mr. McWATTERS - Well, that is on the opposite of town from--
Mr. BALL - The other side is Capital. Where is that?
Mr. McWATTERS - Capital, well, Capital is in north Dallas, I believe it is.
Mr. BALL - Are those Beckley lines listed on the transfer on your run?
Mr. McWATTERS - No, sir; I don't--you mean on the transfer?
Mr. BALL - Yes.
Mr. McWATTERS - Well, that is, in other words, we all--they have so many of the lines listed, in other words, I believe they have two divisions, I believe all the buses that work out of the east Dallas division have--
Mr. BALL - We can make this pretty simple. You have on this transfer certain names. When you are running Marsalis-Ramona-Elwood-Munger, how many possible punches would--location punches would you make?
Mr. McWATTERS - In other words, if I was--Marsalis when I left the end of Marsalis out there I would punch my transfer Marsalis, if I left the end of Ramona I would punch them Ramona. In other words, that is so they can't ride them, in other words, they can't ride the transfer.
Mr. BALL - Now, Lakewood is at one end of your run?
Mr. McWATTERS - That is right.
Mr. BALL - And Marsalis-Ramona-Elwood is the other, is that right?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - So you would punch one of those names?
Mr. McWATTERS - Going that way, while at Marsalis, I would punch the Lakewood when I would leave Marsalis coming toward Lakewood, I would have Lakewood on the front of my bus but I would punch the transfer Marsalis.
Mr. BALL - I have no further questions.
Representative FORD - Thank you very much, Mr. McWatters.
Mr. McWATTERS - Thank you, gentlemen.